'The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (Stanford)'

Lenny Rachitsky: We're going to be talking about how to grow your power.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们将讨论如何增强你的力量。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: The reason why you should pay attention to this is because it leads to a lot of good things, salary, getting promoted, being happy in your career, being less stressed.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：你之所以应该关注这一点，是因为它会带来很多好处，薪水、升职、职业生涯快乐、压力减轻。

Lenny Rachitsky: You're not describing how the world should work.

Lenny Rachitsky：你没有描述世界应该如何运作。

This is just how it is.

就是这样。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Not only is, but how it was and how it will be.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：不仅是现在，而且是过去如何以及未来如何。

Lenny Rachitsky: The Seven Rules of Power, get out of your own way, break the rules, show up in a powerful fashion, create a powerful brand, network relentlessly, use your power, and understand that once you've acquired power, what you did to get there will be forgiven, forgotten, or both.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：权力的七大规则，走出自己的道路，打破规则，以强大的方式出现，创建一个强大的品牌，不懈地建立网络，运用你的权力，并明白，一旦你获得了权力，你为获得权力所做的一切都会被原谅，被遗忘，或者两者兼而有之。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: This is not about personality.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：这与个性无关。

These are skills they can be mastered.

这些是他们可以掌握的技能。

Lenny Rachitsky: People might be hearing this and they're like, "I don't want to be this person."

Lenny Rachitsky：人们可能会听到这个，然后说，“我不想成为这个人。”

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Well, you already have done a fabulous job of illustrating principle one.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：嗯，你已经出色地阐释了第一条原则。

That is one way to get in our own way.

这是一种妨碍我们自己的方式。

If I think power is dirty, the first thing that's going to happen is I'm not going to do what I need to do to be successful in my career.

如果我认为权力是肮脏的，那么首先发生的事情就是我不会做我需要做的事情来在我的职业生涯中取得成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: The opening quote to your book that I have here, if you want power to be used for good, more good people need to have power.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：我这里引用你的书的开场白，如果你希望权力用于善事，那么更多的好人需要拥有权力。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Jeffrey Pfeffer.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Jeffrey Pfeffer。

Jeffrey is a Professor of Organizational Behavior at Stanford's graduate School of Business, and teaches one of the two most popular and oversubscribed courses in all of the MBA program, called the Paths to Power.

杰弗里是斯坦福大学商学院的组织行为学教授，教授所有 MBA 课程中最受欢迎和超额订阅的两门课程之一，即“权力之路”。

The other class, by the way, is Touchy-Feely, which we dove into last month.

顺便说一下，另一类是 Touchy-Feely，我们上个月深入研究了它。

In his class and in his recent book, the Seven Rules of Power, Jeffrey teaches the things that you can do in your life and in your work to build your power, and through that get things done and advance in your career.

在他的课堂和他最近出版的《权力七法则》一书中，杰弗里教授了你在生活和工作中可以做的事情，以增强你的权力，并通过这些事情完成任务并在你的职业生涯中取得进步。

As one student described the class, it's the cod liver oil of the Graduate School of Business.

正如一名学生描述的那样，这是商学院的鱼肝油。

You know it's good for you, but you feel a little nervous about it.

您知道这对您有好处，但您对此感到有点紧张。

In our conversation, we dig into each of the seven powers, why it's important to build these skills even if you feel uncomfortable.

在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了七种力量中的每一种，为什么即使您感到不舒服，培养这些技能也很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: We talk through a bunch of examples of the power in action and the impact it has had on people's lives, why it isn't as cringey or scary as you may think.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们通过一系列例子来说明行动中的力量及其对人们生活的影响，以及为什么它并不像您想象的那样令人尴尬或可怕。

I was actually nervous to have this conversation and I ended up being a huge fan of Jeffrey and the work that he does.

事实上，我对这次谈话感到很紧张，最终我成为了杰弗里和他所做的工作的超级粉丝。

We end the conversation with what you can start doing today to start building your own power.

我们以您今天可以开始做什么来开始建立自己的力量来结束对话。

This podcast is basically for anyone that wants to advance in their career, whether you're an IC or a CEO, and I'm really excited to bring it to you.

这个播客基本上适合任何想要在职业生涯中取得进步的人，无论您是 IC 还是 CEO，我真的很高兴能把它带给您。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Jeffrey Pfeffer.

接下来，我为您带来杰弗里·普费弗 (Jeffrey Pfeffer)。

Jeffrey, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

杰弗里，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Thank you, Lenny.

杰弗里·普费弗：谢谢你，莱尼。

I am honored that you invited me on.

我很荣幸你邀请我参加。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm even more honored that you decided to come on.

Lenny Rachitsky：我更荣幸你决定上场。

We're going to be talking about something that makes a lot of people uncomfortable.

我们将要谈论一些让很多人感到不舒服的事情。

I think it's going to make me uncomfortable.

我想这会让我感到不舒服。

We're going to be talking about how to grow your power in life and in business.

我们将讨论如何增强你在生活和商业中的力量。

Let me just start by asking why does this stuff make people uncomfortable, and why is it still important for people to learn how to do this well?

让我首先问为什么这些东西会让人们感到不舒服，为什么人们学习如何做好这件事仍然很重要？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Well, it's important because a guy named Gerald Ferris developed a scale of political skill.

杰弗里·普费弗：嗯，这很重要，因为一个名叫杰拉尔德·费里斯的人发展了一定程度的政治技巧。

And he and a bunch of his colleagues over the years did a lot of empirical research that demonstrates that political skill is associated with a lot of positive outcomes, salary, getting promoted, being happy in your career, being happy in your job, being less stressed.

多年来，他和他的一群同事做了很多实证研究，表明政治技巧与许多积极的结果相关，比如薪水、升职、职业生涯快乐、工作快乐、压力减轻。

So the reason why you should pay attention to this is because it leads to a lot of good things.

所以你之所以要注意这一点，是因为它会带来很多好处。

The reason why it makes people uncomfortable.

之所以让人不舒服。

You said it made you uncomfortable.

你说这让你不舒服。

Maybe I should ask you the question, why does it make you uncomfortable?

也许我应该问你一个问题，为什么这会让你不舒服？

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a lot of things here that are probably not how people want to live their life necessarily, or want other people to act.

Lenny Rachitsky：这里有很多事情可能并不一定是人们想要的生活方式，或者不希望其他人采取的行动。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Yeah, so I think it makes people uncomfortable because the realities of what it takes to get power bear almost no resemblance to what you're taught in Sunday school or the mosque or wherever, how your parents raised you.

杰弗里·普费弗：是的，所以我认为这让人们感到不舒服，因为获得权力所需的现实几乎与你在主日学校或清真寺或其他地方所教的内容以及你父母如何抚养你的方式几乎没有相似之处。

They bear almost no resemblance to how we think the world ought to be.

它们与我们认为的世界应该有的样子几乎没有相似之处。

They bear a little resemblance to our aspirations.

它们与我们的愿望有些相似。

And I think we look around the world and we see people who have acquired enormous amounts of power and have used it for bad.

我认为，环顾世界，我们会看到人们获得了巨大的权力，但却用它来做坏事。

But I tell people, I see people with hammers hitting other people on the head.

但我告诉人们，我看到有人用锤子敲打别人的头。

That does not mean that a hammer is not a useful tool.

这并不意味着锤子不是一个有用的工具。

You can take a screwdriver and stab it into somebody's belly.

你可以拿一把螺丝刀，把它刺进别人的肚子里。

I have a very dear friend who we'll probably talk about later in the podcast.

我有一位非常亲密的朋友，我们稍后可能会在播客中谈论他。

Laura Esserman is a breast cancer surgeon, and I tell people, Laura has a knife.

劳拉·埃瑟曼是一名乳腺癌外科医生，我告诉人们，劳拉有一把刀。

She uses it to cure cancer.

她用它来治疗癌症。

Muggers have knives.

抢劫犯有刀。

They use it to rob people.

他们用它来抢劫人们。

So I think we've confused the tool for how it has been used.

所以我认为我们混淆了该工具的使用方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: You also have this quote that the people who need to understand power and build their power skills are people who come from backgrounds or characteristics who would normally put them at a disadvantage.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：您还引用了这样的话，即需要了解权力并培养权力技能的人是那些来自通常会使他们处于不利地位的背景或特征的人。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: I think that's exactly right.

杰弗里·普费弗：我认为这是完全正确的。

I will go this Sunday to Nashville Tennessee to talk to a bunch of people of color in the NFL who are trying to rise up the ranks.

这周日我将前往田纳西州纳什维尔，与 NFL 中一群努力提升排名的有色人种交谈。

Stanford runs a program because the NFL is serious, I think, about trying to make more opportunity for people, underrepresented minorities.

我认为，斯坦福大学之所以开展这个项目，是因为美国国家橄榄球联盟 (NFL) 非常认真地致力于为少数群体创造更多机会。

But these are folks who will not succeed unless they learn power skills, because the world is stacked against them in lots of ways.

但这些人除非学习权力技能，否则不会成功，因为世界在很多方面都对他们不利。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Uizard, empowering product leaders to ideate and iterate faster than ever before with the power of AI.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Uizard 为您带来，使产品领导者能够利用人工智能的力量比以往更快地构思和迭代。

As a product manager, I often spend hours taking screenshots and then annotating them with feedback for my team.

作为产品经理，我经常花几个小时截取屏幕截图，然后为我的团队提供反馈注释。

With Uizard, I can simply upload my screenshot and Uizard's AI will turn them into a fully editable UI design, that I can then take, make tweaks to, and then share with my teams in minutes.

使用 Uizard，我可以简单地上传我的屏幕截图，Uizard 的 AI 会将它们转换为完全可编辑的 UI 设计，然后我可以在几分钟内对其进行调整，然后与我的团队共享。

And when I want to get really creative and explore totally new ways to improve our product experience, I can use Uizard's AI to generate new design concepts from simple text prompts, and turn them into interactive prototypes effortlessly.

当我想要发挥真正的创造力并探索全新的方法来改善我们的产品体验时，我可以使用 Uizard 的人工智能从简单的文本提示中生成新的设计概念，并毫不费力地将它们转变为交互式原型。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a reason that over 2.6 million people have trusted Uizard to accelerate every phase of their product life cycle and speed up time to market.

Lenny Rachitsky：超过 260 万人信任 Uizard 来加速其产品生命周期的每个阶段并加快上市时间，这是有原因的。

Developers can even export UI components to React and CSS to speed up their development.

开发人员甚至可以将 UI 组件导出到 React 和 CSS 以加快开发速度。

Uizard's drag and drop editor is super easy to use and you can collaborate in real time with your entire team.

Uizard 的拖放编辑器非常易于使用，您可以与整个团队实时协作。

Even your CEO and customer service teams can contribute.

甚至您的首席执行官和客户服务团队也可以做出贡献。

Unlock all of Uizard's game-changing AI powered features and more with 25% off Uizard's Pro annual plan.

解锁 Uizard 所有改变游戏规则的人工智能功能以及更多功能，并享受 Uizard Pro 年度计划 25% 的折扣。

Visit uizard.io/Lenny and use code Lenny to check out today.

立即访问 uizard.io/Lenny 并使用代码 Lenny 进行查看。

That's uizard.io/Lenny.

那是 uizard.io/Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Webflow.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Webflow 为您带来。

We're all friends here, so let's be real for a second.

我们都是这里的朋友，所以让我们现实一点吧。

We all know that your website shouldn't be a static asset.

我们都知道您的网站不应该是静态资产。

It should be a dynamic part of your strategy that drives conversions.

它应该是推动转化的策略的动态部分。

That's Business 101.

那是商业101。

But here's a number for you.

但这是给你的一个数字。

54% of leaders say web updates take too long.

54% 的领导者表示网络更新时间太长。

That's over half of you listening right now.

现在有超过一半的人在听。

That's where Webflow comes in.

这就是 Webflow 的用武之地。

Their visual first platform allows you to build, launch, and optimize web pages fast.

他们的视觉优先平台允许您快速构建、启动和优化网页。

That means you can set ambitious business goals and your site can rise to the challenge.

这意味着您可以设定雄心勃勃的业务目标，并且您的网站可以应对挑战。

Learn how teams like Dropbox, IDEO and Orange Theory trust Webflow to achieve their most ambitious goals today at Webflow.com.

立即访问 Webflow.com 了解 Dropbox、IDEO 和 Orange Theory 等团队如何信任 Webflow 来实现他们最雄心勃勃的目标。

Lenny Rachitsky: Another element of your course that you try to make clear in your syllabus is to teach people not to be as judgmental.

Lenny Rachitsky：您试图在教学大纲中明确说明的课程的另一个要素是教导人们不要做出评判。

You also have this whole huge bold phrase, "This class is not for everyone." Can you just talk a bit about maybe why it's not for everyone and then why being less judgmental is important?

你还有这整个巨大的大胆短语，“这门课并不适合所有人。”您能否谈谈为什么它并不适合所有人以及为什么少一点评判很重要？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: The class is extremely popular.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：这门课非常受欢迎。

I have a long waiting list.

我有一个很长的等待名单。

It's kind of mythical.

这有点神话。

And because of the principle of social influence, we are influenced by what other people do.

由于社会影响原则，我们会受到其他人所做的事情的影响。

We're influenced in our choices of restaurants, we're influenced in our choices of music.

我们对餐馆的选择受到影响，我们对音乐的选择也受到影响。

I'm not sure I like Taylor Swift, but I certainly want to go see Taylor Swift because everybody else is.

我不确定我喜欢泰勒·斯威夫特，但我当然想去看泰勒·斯威夫特，因为其他人都是。

And many people sign up for the class.

而且很多人报名参加这个课程。

And one year in particular, there were some people who sat in about the third row up, directly in front of me, and they looked every day like they were having some terrible thing put up some horrible orifice or something.

特别是有一年，有一些人坐在第三排，就在我的正前方，他们看起来每天都好像有什么可怕的东西在打开一些可怕的孔或什么的。

They looked literally in pain, and so I decided, and of course they learned nothing.

他们看起来真的很痛苦，所以我决定了，当然他们什么也没学到。

If you come to the class and you're in that much psychological discomfort, you're not going to learn anything.

如果你来上课时心理很不舒服，你就学不到任何东西。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: And so what I try to do is tell people that in order to benefit from this class, you have to be open to learning the material.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：所以我试图告诉人们，为了从这门课中受益，你必须愿意学习这些材料。

And if you're not, and by the way, this would be true for any class.

如果你不是，顺便说一句，这对于任何班级都是如此。

If you go to physics and you say, I don't like physics, I hate physics, I don't believe in physics, I don't believe in the theory of physics, whatever, you're not going to learn anything.

如果你去学物理，你说，我不喜欢物理，我讨厌物理，我不相信物理，我不相信物理理论，无论如何，你都不会学到任何东西。

And so I'm trying to get the class, given those huge waiting lists, I'm trying to get the class to have people in it who are in fact going to benefit from it rather than sit there and look like they're in pain.

因此，考虑到等待名单如此庞大，我试图让这堂课上的人实际上能从中受益，而不是坐在那里，看起来很痛苦。

And the judgmental thing, if Matthew 7, "Judge not that ye be not judged." The Koran says, "Only Allah can judge people." The American poet, Walt Whitman said, "Be curious, not judgmental."

至于审判的事，马太福音第 7 章说：“你们不要论断人，免得你们被论断。” 《古兰经》说：“只有真主才能审判人。”美国诗人沃尔特·惠特曼说过：“要好奇，不要评判。”

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Mother Teresa said, "If you judge people, you have no time to love them." Judgment, if I need to build a positive relationship with Lenny because you are on my critical path in my job, and jobs necessarily entail a reasonable amount of interdependence, I get things done through and with other people.

杰弗里·普费弗：特蕾莎修女说过，“如果你评判别人，你就没有时间去爱他们。”判断力，如果我需要与莱尼建立积极的关系，因为你在我工作的关键道路上，而工作必然需要一定程度的相互依赖，那么我会通过其他人并与其他人一起完成工作。

If I decide that Lenny is whatever set of bad adjectives you want to use, dumb, incompetent, immoral, whatever, my ability to build a positive relationship with you, and you remain on my critical path, becomes almost zero unless you're a better actor or I'm a better actor than I think most people are.

如果我认为莱尼是你想用的任何坏形容词，愚蠢、无能、不道德，无论什么，我与你建立积极关系的能力，以及你继续走在我的关键道路上的能力，几乎为零，除非你是一个更好的演员，或者我是一个比我认为大多数人更好的演员。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: So therefore, you should suspend judgment in the sense that if somebody is on your critical path, the only judgment you should make is they're on my critical path.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：因此，您应该暂停判断，因为如果有人在您的关键路径上，您应该做出的唯一判断是他们在我的关键路径上。

If I want to get something done, I need their collaboration and cooperation, and the fact that I may not like them is in fact irrelevant.

如果我想要完成一件事，我需要他们的配合和配合，而我可能不喜欢他们其实并不重要。

And as I have taught senior executives over the years, it is absolutely clear to me that one of the skills that they have mastered is they have a skill that you cannot tell what they think of you.

正如我多年来教高级管理人员的那样，我绝对清楚他们掌握的技能之一是他们拥有一种你无法告诉他们对你的看法的技能。

And that's important because I need your collaboration, I need your cooperation.

这很重要，因为我需要你的合作，我需要你的合作。

And if I leak out in ways that say I don't respect you or I don't like you, I don't admire you, whatever, my odds of getting you to work productively with me goes essentially to zero.

如果我以某种方式泄露出去，说我不尊重你，或者我不喜欢你，我不钦佩你，无论如何，我让你和我一起高效工作的几率基本上为零。

So that's a judgmental story.

所以这是一个判断性的故事。

Does that make sense?

这有道理吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。

And I have a quote from your syllabus along these lines, "Not everyone we encounter in Paths to Power is someone you're going to want to emulate.

我从你的教学大纲中引用了这样一句话：“并不是我们在《权力之路》中遇到的每个人都是你想要效仿的人。

This is a class about how to get things done, how to build and wield influence, and there are multiple ways to accomplish these objectives." So I've had two friends actually go through the course.

这是一门关于如何完成工作、如何建立和运用影响力的课程，并且有多种方法可以实现这些目标。”所以我有两个朋友实际上完成了该课程。

One I asked about the course of the impact it had on her.

其中一位我询问了这件事对她的影响过程。

She's actually a founder now.

她现在实际上是一名创始人。

And she told me that your class was her single most favorite class at all of Stanford Business School, because it was realistic and applicable to life as a founder.

她告诉我，你们的课程是她在斯坦福商学院最喜欢的课程，因为它很现实并且适用于创始人的生活。

Because it didn't sugarcoat business, didn't sugarcoat life.

因为它没有给生意添油加醋，也没有给生活添油加醋。

It told her how the world really works and it is helping her succeed with her startup right now.

它告诉她世界是如何运作的，并且它正在帮助她现在的创业取得成功。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Thank you.

杰弗里·普费弗：谢谢。

There's no higher praise than that.

没有比这更高的赞美了。

I actually don't read, I shouldn't probably say this on the public, but I don't actually read my course evaluations because the impact I want to have is not to have people like me, but to have that kind of impact.

我实际上不阅读，我可能不应该在公众面前这么说，但我实际上不阅读我的课程评估，因为我想要产生的影响不是让像我这样的人，而是产生那种影响。

To make people more successful, more effective in their lives.

使人们的生活更加成功、更加高效。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is a good segue to one of your rules of power.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是对你的权力规则之一的很好的延续。

So let's just talk about your Seven Rules of Power.

那么让我们来谈谈你的七项权力规则。

I actually have your book right here and if folks want to learn more, here it is, Seven Rules of Power.

事实上，我这里有你的书，如果人们想了解更多，这就是《权力的七条规则》。

This is your fourth book about power, and this is your best book about power, because it basically summarizes everything you've learned in a really cohesive way.

这是你关于权力的第四本书，也是你关于权力的最好的书，因为它基本上以一种真正有凝聚力的方式总结了你所学到的一切。

So let me first share the Seven Rules of Power and then I'm going to dive into a few of them.

因此，让我首先分享七项权力规则，然后我将深入探讨其中的一些规则。

Does that sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so the seven rules, one, get out of your own way.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，那么七个规则，第一，别挡自己的路。

Two, break the rules.

二、打破规则。

Three, appear powerful.

三、显得强大。

Four, build a powerful brand.

四、打造强势品牌。

Network relentlessly.

网络无情。

Use your power, and success excuses almost...

运用你的力量，成功几乎就是借口......

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, success excuses everything almost.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，成功几乎可以成为一切的借口。

Got it.

知道了。

Okay.

好的。

So let me start with power four, which is around personal brand.

让我从第四次力量开始，这是围绕个人品牌的。

And the reason I want to start here is I have a friend that's actually in your class right now, Ralph, and I saw that he started a podcast.

我想从这里开始的原因是我有一个朋友拉尔夫，他现在实际上在你们班上，我看到他开始了一个播客。

And he told me that he did it because it was part of the homework that you give students.

他告诉我他这样做是因为这是你给学生的家庭作业的一部分。

You call it Doing Power.

你称之为“做力量”。

Is that the name of the homework assignments?

这是家庭作业的名称吗？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Yeah, I have.

杰弗里·普费弗：是的，我有。

So we give them a bunch of assignments throughout the class, which are self-reflective assignments, but their big thing for the class is they have to do power.

所以我们在全班给他们布置了一堆作业，这些作业都是自我反思的作业，但他们对班级来说最重要的是他们必须发挥力量。

They have to do something during the quarter to take the principles of the class, and what they're learning, and put them into practice.

他们必须在本季度做一些事情，将课堂上的原则和所学内容付诸实践。

And that is because everything I do, I do for a reason.

那是因为我所做的一切都是有原因的。

That is because if you don't use what you learn, the learning will disappear.

这是因为如果你不运用所学的知识，那么所学的知识就会消失。

So if you go to a French class and you learn French, and you never speak French, in about a relatively short period of time you'll forget everything you learn.

因此，如果你去法语班学习法语，但你从不说法语，那么在相对较短的时间内，你就会忘记你所学的一切。

And so I want the learning to stick with them, so I try to get them to do something with it.

所以我希望他们能够坚持学习，所以我试着让他们用它来做一些事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: While we're on this tangent, I wanted to talk about this whole, you have a book, the Doing Knowing Gap.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我们正处于这个话题时，我想谈谈整个问题，你有一本书，《Doing Knowing Gap》。

Lenny Rachitsky: The Knowing-Doing Gap.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：知行差距。

So let's just spend a little time there.

那么让我们在那里度过一点时间吧。

I think that's really important.

我认为这非常重要。

What are some examples of things that have come out of people doing these homework assignments, things that maybe led to something interesting?

有哪些例子可以说明人们在做这些家庭作业时得到的结果，或者可能会带来一些有趣的事情？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Let me take my most extreme example.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：让我举一个最极端的例子。

My most extreme example is probably Derek Kan, K-A-N.

我最极端的例子可能是 Derek Kan，K-A-N。

And Derek Kan was a little bit older when he went through the MBA program.

德里克·坎 (Derek Kan) 攻读 MBA 课程时年龄稍大一些。

And in 2012, his Doing Power project was to get appointed to be Mitt Romney's, it was Mitt Romney was running for president, to be head of economic policy for the Romney campaign.

2012年，他的Doing Power项目被任命为米特·罗姆尼(Mitt Romney)的项目，当时米特·罗姆尼正在竞选总统，担任罗姆尼竞选团队的经济政策负责人。

Believe it or not, he was offered the job.

不管你相信与否，他得到了这份工作。

Believe it or not, he turned it down for reasons which we could go into if you want, but aren't that interesting.

不管你信不信，他拒绝了，原因如果你愿意的话我们可以探讨一下，但并不是那么有趣。

He wound up relatively soon thereafter as number three in the transportation department, working for Elaine Chao.

此后不久，他就成为交通部门的三号人物，为赵小兰工作。

And I have a picture of him when he comes to the class, I introduce him.

我有一张他来上课时的照片，我介绍他。

I tell students, I give them a trigger warning and I introduce him.

我告诉学生，我给他们一个触发警告，然后介绍他。

He wound up, at the end of the Trump administration, as the deputy director of the Office of Management and Budget.

在特朗普政府结束时，他担任管理和预算办公室副主任。

And since typical of the Trump administration, by that time there was no director.

由于特朗普政府的典型做法，当时还没有主任。

He essentially ran the $6 trillion US budget.

他负责管理 6 万亿美元的美国预算。

This is six years out of business school.

这是从商学院毕业六年了。

Lenny Rachitsky: I was thinking whether he got that during his class.

Lenny Rachitsky：我在想他是否在课堂上得到了这一点。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Okay, so this is a success story of Doing Power.

好的，这就是 Doing Power 的成功故事。

Let's talk about this first power of building brand, and I think this is where people start to feel uncomfortable.

我们来谈谈建立品牌的第一动力，我认为这就是人们开始感到不舒服的地方。

They're going to be like, oh no, I don't want to be doing this.

他们会说，哦不，我不想这样做。

This doesn't feel good to me.

这对我来说感觉不太好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's see.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我们看看。

So talk about this power of building a personal brand.

那么谈谈建立个人品牌的力量吧。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: There are by definition fewer positions at the top than at the bottom.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：根据定义，顶部的位置比底部的位置少。

The world, we might not like this, and I know people, the late Tony Hsieh, the Zappos tried to do holacracy or whatever, but the world is essentially hierarchical.

这个世界，我们可能不喜欢这个，我认识的人，已故的谢家华、Zappos 试图做合弄制或其他什么，但世界本质上是等级制的。

The animal kingdom is hierarchical.

动物王国是有等级制度的。

It is better to be at the top than at the bottom for a number of reasons.

由于多种原因，处于顶部比处于底部更好。

Okay.

好的。

If that is true, if there are fewer positions at the top and then at the bottom, then your job to advance your career is to figure out how to get promoted.

如果这是真的，如果高层的职位较少，然后是底层的职位较少，那么你提升职业生涯的工作就是弄清楚如何晋升。

There are many ways to get promoted, but I will guarantee you one thing, no one is going to promote Lenny if they don't know who the hell you are.

升职的方法有很多，但我向你保证一件事，如果他们不知道你到底是谁，就没有人会升职莱尼。

So it is not sufficient for them to know who you are.

所以他们仅仅知道你是谁是不够的。

They have to know that you're smart and personable and have whatever skills you've got, but they have to know you.

他们必须知道你聪明、风度翩翩并且拥有你所拥有的任何技能，但他们必须了解你。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: If they don't know you, you cannot choose what is not in your head.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：如果他们不认识你，你就无法选择不在你头脑中的东西。

You know that better than I do.

你比我更清楚这一点。

So therefore you have to do something to differentiate yourself.

因此，你必须做一些事情来让自己与众不同。

You have to build a brand.

你必须建立一个品牌。

So when I think of Lenny in your podcast, I think of something.

所以当我在你的播客中想到莱尼时，我想到了一些事情。

Not just 25 billion podcasts.

不仅仅是 250 亿个播客。

When I think of somebody in McKinsey or Bay or BCG, one of the consulting firms, a gazillion people start off as front-line consultants.

当我想到麦肯锡、Bay 或 BCG（咨询公司之一）的某个人时，无数人都是从一线顾问开始的。

What are you going to do so that somebody knows who you are?

你要做什么才能让别人知道你是谁？

What are you going to do that creates value for the firm and for you?

你打算做什么来为公司和你创造价值？

So my friend Keith Ferazzi, when he started at Deloitte Consulting, did not do the spreadsheet stuff that he was, by the way, not very good at and didn't like.

因此，我的朋友基思·费拉齐 (Keith Ferazzi) 在德勤咨询公司开始工作时，并没有做电子表格方面的工作，顺便说一句，他不太擅长也不喜欢这些工作。

He started the Lincoln Quality Award.

他创办了林肯质量奖。

He decided to try to take Deloitte's brand recognition from about one or 2% to 30%.

他决定尝试将德勤的品牌认知度从大约 1% 或 2% 提高到 30%。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: He was appointed, though he left before he actually took the job, to the position of partner and the first chief marketing officer at Deloitte.

杰弗里·普费弗（Jeffrey Pfeffer）：尽管他在真正接受这份工作之前就离开了，但他被任命为德勤合伙人兼第一任首席营销官。

I have another friend, Tristan Walker, who wanted to get hired at Foursquare.

我还有另一个朋友 Tristan Walker，他想受雇于 Foursquare。

He sent emails to the founder.

他给创始人发了电子邮件。

The founder ignored him.

创始人没有理睬他。

So Tristan Walker did something I think very bold.

所以特里斯坦·沃克做了一些我认为非常大胆的事情。

Tristan Walker began signing up partnerships.

特里斯坦·沃克开始签署合作伙伴关系。

So one day the founder says, holy God, he signed up Starbucks.

所以有一天，创始人说，天哪，他签了星巴克。

Maybe I ought to hire this guy.

也许我应该雇用这个人。

So you have to do something that causes people to know who you are, and that is what building a brand is about.

所以你必须做一些事情让人们知道你是谁，这就是建立品牌的意义所在。

Lenny Rachitsky: It sounds very benign put that way.

Lenny Rachitsky：这样说听起来非常温和。

When people hear, I need to build a personal brand, it sounds like I need to post on LinkedIn, I need to post on Twitter, start a newsletter, start a podcast, which I know is kind of a part of it.

当人们听到我需要建立个人品牌时，听起来就像我需要在 LinkedIn 上发帖，我需要在 Twitter 上发帖，开始时事通讯，开始播客，我知道这是其中的一部分。

But what are some examples you've seen of ways to build a personal brand that are effective?

但您见过哪些有效建立个人品牌的例子呢？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: So I have a friend who I bring to the class, a lovely tall Asian woman named Laura Chau, who made partner at a venture capital firm after four years, which is fast.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：我带了一个朋友来上课，她是一位可爱的高个子亚洲女性，名叫 Laura Chau，她在四年后成为一家风险投资公司的合伙人，这很快。

Laura works for Canaan Partners, C-A-N-A-A-N.

劳拉 (Laura) 在 Canaan Partners (C-A-N-A-A-N) 工作。

Laura said, I do not work for Andreessen Horowitz, I do not work for Sequoia, I don't work for Greylock, I don't work for any of these very visible large VC firms.

劳拉说，我不为安德森霍洛维茨工作，我不为红杉工作，我不为 Greylock 工作，我不为任何这些非常知名的大型风险投资公司工作。

So if I am going to get deals in the consumer space, that's her domain of expertise is consumer and consumer tech, somebody is going to have to know who Laura Chau is.

因此，如果我要在消费者领域达成交易，她的专业领域是消费者和消费者技术，那么就必须有人知道 Laura Chau 是谁。

Because again, you're not going to get the deal if nobody knows who you are.

因为如果没有人知道你是谁，你就无法达成交易。

And so she basically did everything you talked about.

所以她基本上做了你所说的一切。

She did writing.

她做写作。

She started a podcast in which she invited influential people on.

她创办了一个播客，邀请了有影响力的人士加入。

She contributed to a book.

她为一本书做出了贡献。

She helped people out.

她帮助人们摆脱困境。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: She did networking dinners.

杰弗里·普费弗：她举办了社交晚宴。

She did everything she could so that people would recognize and know Laura Chau.

她竭尽全力让人们认识并认识周焯华。

And one of the things she did was she's tall.

她所做的一件事就是她很高。

In general, Asian women are not tall.

一般来说，亚洲女性个子不高。

She decided to play up the fact that she was, in the words of some people, the tallest Asian woman they'd ever seen.

她决定强调这样一个事实：用一些人的话说，她是他们见过的最高的亚洲女性。

She wears heels.

她穿高跟鞋。

In her heels she's six feet one inches tall.

穿着高跟鞋，她身高六英尺一英寸。

She also, when she comes to my class, many people come to my class with hoodies, God knows what.

她也，当她来到我的班级时，很多人都穿着连帽衫来我的班级，天知道是什么。

She has style and it's a unique style.

她有风格，而且是一种独特的风格。

So she thinks about very strategically, how am I going to dress?

所以她很有策略地思考，我要怎么穿？

How am I going to look?

我要看起来怎么样？

How am I going to show up?

我要如何出现？

How am I going to do what I need to do so that people know who I am?

我该如何做我需要做的事情，以便人们知道我是谁？

Obviously there's substance.

显然是有实质内容的。

If you have visibility without substance, people will know you're useless.

如果你有知名度但没有实质内容，人们就会知道你毫无用处。

But if you have substance without visibility, no one will know the substance that you got.

但如果你拥有不可见的物质，那么没有人会知道你所获得的物质。

Lenny Rachitsky: You also talk about how you can reframe this idea of not being self-promotional, but it's amplifying the impact of the team that I work with, or it's me scaling myself by sharing things I know and pointing people to it.

Lenny Rachitsky：您还谈到了如何重新构建不自我推销的想法，但它放大了与我合作的团队的影响力，或者是我通过分享我所知道的事情并向人们指出来扩展自己。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, let's move on to a different power.

好吧，让我们转向不同的力量。

Let's talk about power one, which is getting out of your own way.

我们来谈谈权力一，即不妨碍自己。

Talk about what that means and how someone can work on that.

讨论这意味着什么以及人们可以如何解决这个问题。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Well, you already have done a fabulous job of illustrating principle one by talking about how this is the topic that makes people uncomfortable.

杰弗里·普费弗（Jeffrey Pfeffer）：嗯，你已经通过谈论这个话题如何让人感到不舒服来很好地阐释了原则一。

And when something makes people uncomfortable, in general, they're going to shy away from it.

一般来说，当某件事让人们感到不舒服时，他们会回避它。

So if I think power is dirty, if I think power is evil, if I think power is something I want nothing to do with, the first thing that's going to happen is I'm not going to do what I need to do to be successful in my career.

因此，如果我认为权力是肮脏的，如果我认为权力是邪恶的，如果我认为权力是我不想与之有任何关系的东西，那么首先发生的事情就是我不会做我需要做的事情来在我的职业生涯中取得成功。

So that is one way in which we get in our own way.

所以这是我们妨碍自己的一种方式。

Another way in which we get in our own way, many people suffer from what is called in the psychology literature, imposter syndrome.

另一种阻碍我们前进的方式是，许多人患有心理学文献中所说的“冒名顶替综合症”。

They believe that they were the admissions mistake at Stanford.

他们认为这是斯坦福大学招生的错误。

They were the hiring mistake in whatever company they're working for.

无论他们为什么公司工作，他们都是招聘错误。

That somehow they got to this job, but they don't really deserve to be there because they're surrounded by people who are smarter and better than them, and therefore they will do things.

他们以某种方式得到了这份工作，但他们并不真正值得在那里，因为他们周围都是比他们更聪明、更优秀的人，因此他们会做事。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: I can't even believe that this goes on.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：我什至不敢相信这种情况还在继续。

So I will have students, not many, but a few.

所以我会有学生，不是很多，而是几个。

Now raise their hand, I'll call them, and the first things out of their mouth will be, I don't know if this comment is going to be useful.

现在举起他们的手，我会打电话给他们，他们嘴里说的第一句话就是，我不知道这个评论是否有用。

This is called pre-emptory apology.

这就是所谓的先发制人的道歉。

If the comment is not going to be useful, don't say it.

如果评论没有用，就不要说。

That's number one, but number two, don't apologize.

这是第一，但第二，不要道歉。

Pardon me for interrupting.

请原谅我打扰。

Pardon me for taking up your time.

请原谅我占用了您的时间。

Stop all this apologizing.

别再道歉了。

If you got the job you're in, you probably are not only qualified, you're probably overqualified.

如果你得到了现在的工作，你可能不仅合格，而且可能资历过高。

So don't use descriptors of yourself that disempower you.

因此，不要使用那些削弱你力量的自我描述。

Don't think of yourself as not deserving of the job that you hold, because that attitude will leak out and other people will say, if Lenny doesn't think he deserved the job, then maybe I shouldn't think he deserves the job either.

不要认为自己不值得担任这份工作，因为这种态度会泄露出去，其他人会说，如果莱尼认为他不值得这份工作，那么也许我也不应该认为他值得这份工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: So basically the first power is you're shooting yourself in the foot by worrying too much about whether people like you.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以基本上第一个力量是你因为过于担心人们是否喜欢你而搬起石头砸自己的脚。

This friend of mine who's now the founder that I read some quotes from, she said her number one takeaway from your class is if you want to be liked, get a dog.

我的一位朋友现在是创始人，我读过一些引言，她说她从你们班上学到的第一句话是，如果你想被人喜欢，就养一只狗。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: That's correct.

杰弗里·普费弗：是的。

That is a quote from my dear friend Gary Loveman, who for many years ran Harrah's, which then became Caesars, the casino company.

这是我亲爱的朋友加里·洛夫曼 (Gary Loveman) 的一句话，他经营哈拉赌场 (Harrah's) 多年，后来成为赌场公司凯撒 (Caesars)。

Lenny Rachitsky: You also talk about this.

Lenny Rachitsky：您也谈到了这一点。

Yeah, there's this quote I have.

是的，我有这句话。

"Acknowledge that others are often no better than you, because that makes you feel better about the story." So for people that actually want to be liked, I like being liked.

“承认其他人通常并不比你更好，因为这会让你对这个故事感觉更好。”所以对于那些真正想要被人喜欢的人来说，我喜欢被人喜欢。

I don't know if it's a flaw in my upbringing.

我不知道这是否是我的成长过程中的一个缺陷。

Is the lesson you're capped on your power if you worry about if you want to be liked?

如果你担心自己是否想被人喜欢，这堂课是否会限制你的力量？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: At the end of the day, you don't want to be intentionally disliked.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：归根结底，你不想被故意讨厌。

You don't want to violate my dear friend Bob Sutton's book The No Asshole Rule and gratuitously be an asshole.

你不想违反我亲爱的朋友鲍勃·萨顿的书《无混蛋规则》并无缘无故地成为一个混蛋。

But you are hired to get a job done.

但你被雇用是为了完成工作。

It's interesting.

这很有趣。

I unfortunately am now too old.

不幸的是我现在太老了。

In the words of my chiropractor, I'm suffering from too many birthdays.

用我的脊椎按摩师的话来说，我经历了太多的生日。

So I have a lot of doctors who are doing a great job.

所以我有很多做得很好的医生。

Trust me, when I choose a doctor, I have a, unfortunately he retired, a neurosurgeon who did two surgeries on my spine.

相信我，当我选择医生时，我有一位神经外科医生，不幸的是他退休了，他为我做了两次脊柱手术。

He's considered to be one of the top 20 in the country.

他被认为是该国前20名之一。

If you go on Yelp, you read about his personality and his office furniture.

如果你上 Yelp，你会了解到他的个性和他的办公家具。

As I said to somebody, he's doing microsurgery on my spine, I can wind up permanently paralyzed.

正如我对某人说的，他正在对我的脊柱进行显微手术，我可能会永久瘫痪。

I really don't care about his personality.

我真的不关心他的性格。

I don't care about his office furniture.

我不关心他的办公家具。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: That's an extreme example, but it makes the point.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：这是一个极端的例子，但它很能说明问题。

When you are put in a role, you are put in a role because presumably you are supposed to perform in that role.

当你被安排在一个角色中时，你被安排在一个角色中是因为你应该扮演那个角色。

If you get appointed to be a head coach, if we make you a quarterback on an NFL team, or we make you center on a National Basketball Association team, you did not get that job because people thought you had a cute personality.

如果你被任命为主教练，如果我们让你成为 NFL 球队的四分卫，或者我们让你成为国家篮球协会球队的中锋，你不会得到这份工作，因为人们认为你有一个可爱的个性。

You got that job because you have the skills to make your organization successful.

您得到这份工作是因为您拥有使您的组织取得成功的技能。

And if you do not use those skills because you're worried about what everybody else is thinking, you are not only harming yourself, but you're harming them because you are not doing what you were hired to do.

如果你因为担心其他人的想法而不使用这些技能，那么你不仅会伤害自己，还会伤害他们，因为你没有做你被雇用要做的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: So a simple way of thinking about this, which makes me feel better about.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一种简单的思考方式，这让我感觉更好。

As we talk through this, I'm becoming less uncomfortable with these, which is a good sign.

当我们讨论这个问题时，我对这些感到不那么不舒服了，这是一个好兆头。

It's don't actively try to be disliked.

不要主动尝试让自己不受欢迎。

Don't prioritize being liked, prioritize competence and respect.

不要优先考虑被喜欢，优先考虑能力和尊重。

Lenny Rachitsky: And doing the thing that needs to be done.

Lenny Rachitsky：并做需要做的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太好了。

Let's talk about rule number two, which is break the rules.

我们来谈谈第二条规则，即打破规则。

So basically again, these powers are ways to grow power, and you're saying that if you break the rules, you get more power.

所以基本上，这些权力是增强权力的方式，你是说，如果你违反规则，你就会获得更多权力。

Talk about why that's the case, what that looks like.

谈谈为什么会出现这种情况，情况是什么样的。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Well, for many reasons, number one, when you break the rules, you stand out.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：嗯，出于多种原因，第一，当你打破规则时，你就会脱颖而出。

You become memorable when you do something that's unexpected.

当你做了一些意想不到的事情时，你就会变得令人难忘。

And being memorable is of course important, as we've already discussed.

正如我们已经讨论过的，令人难忘当然很重要。

That's number one.

这是第一。

Number two, the rules were made mostly by the people who are favored by the rules in place.

第二，规则主要是由那些受到现有规则青睐的人制定的。

So if we were talking about business strategy, we would talk about a word that is probably now overused.

因此，如果我们谈论商业战略，我们会谈论一个现在可能被过度使用的词。

We would talk about being a disruptor.

我们会谈论成为一个颠覆者。

That you would disrupt an industry.

你会扰乱一个行业。

And how do you disrupt an industry?

如何颠覆一个行业？

By doing something that is different from the other industry incumbents.

通过做一些与其他行业现有企业不同的事情。

In Southwest Airlines, you don't do hub and spoke.

在西南航空，您不采用轴辐式设计。

At Amazon, you provide an incredible level of customer service.

在亚马逊，您提供令人难以置信的客户服务水平。

Whole Foods, you don't optimize on the cost of the stuff in your store, but you optimize on fitting local taste, whatever.

在全食超市，你不会优化商店里商品的成本，但你会优化适应当地口味，无论如何。

You would be a disruptor, you would do things that are different.

你会成为一个颠覆者，你会做一些不同的事情。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: The same principle holds for you, that if you are going to be successful, you have to do what number one, plays to your strengths, to use the title of a Gallup book.

杰弗里·普费弗：同样的原则也适用于你，如果你想成功，你必须做第一件事，发挥你的优势，用盖洛普书的书名来说。

Number two, you have to do things again that cause you to stand out, and you have to do things that basically will make you more successful.

第二，你必须再次做一些让你脱颖而出的事情，你必须做一些基本上会让你更成功的事情。

One of the conventional wisdoms that people I think adhere to way too much, is don't ask.

我认为人们过于坚持的传统智慧之一就是不要问。

Don't ask, don't ask for help.

不要询问，也不要寻求帮助。

You need to show self-sufficiency.

你需要表现出自给自足。

So my colleague, Frances Flynn, Frank Flynn, wrote an article with Vanessa Lake entitled, If You Need Help, Just Ask.

因此，我的同事弗朗西斯·弗林（Frances Flynn）弗兰克·弗林（Frank Flynn）与瓦妮莎·莱克（Vanessa Lake）一起写了一篇文章，题为“如果您需要帮助，就问吧”。

And it turns out people overestimate how many people they're going to have to ask to get help, and it turns out that asking for help makes people uncomfortable.

事实证明，人们高估了他们需要向多少人寻求帮助，而且事实证明，寻求帮助会让人们感到不舒服。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: I was married, if you read the acknowledgments in Seven Rules of Power.

杰弗里·普费弗：如果你读过《权力七法则》中的致谢的话，我已经结婚了。

For more than 35 years I was married to Kathleen Francis Fowler, who I could send you a picture.

我和凯瑟琳·弗朗西斯·福勒 (Kathleen Francis Fowler) 结婚已经超过 35 年了，我可以给你发一张她的照片。

She looked literally like a supermodel and I never have been any particularly better looking than I am now.

她看起来简直就像一位超级名模，而我从来没有比现在好看过。

So somebody said to me, how'd you get her to go out with you?

有人对我说，你怎么让她和你出去？

And the answer of course is, I asked.

答案当然是，我问。

I asked, I asked, I asked.

我问，我问，我问。

No one, well, maybe not no one.

没有人，好吧，也许不是没有人。

But few people are going to go out with you if you don't ask them out.

但如果你不约他们出去，很少有人愿意和你出去。

Few people are going to marry you if you don't ask them to marry.

如果你不向他们求婚，很少有人愿意嫁给你。

Few people are going to do anything if you don't ask.

如果你不提出要求，很少有人会做任何事。

And what is the worst that could happen?

可能发生的最坏情况是什么？

If you ask and they say, no, you are no worse off than had you not asked in the first place.

如果你问了，他们说不，你的情况并不比一开始就没有问更糟。

If you don't ask, you're not going to get it.

如果你不问，你就不会得到它。

If you ask and they say, no, you're not going to get it.

如果你问，他们说，不，你就不会得到它。

Get over your ego, ask.

克服你的自我，去问。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there another example that comes to mind of someone breaking the rules say in business, that ended up being really successful as a result, or just someone that is really good at this in business?

Lenny Rachitsky：是否还有另一个例子，比如有人在商业上违反了规则，但最终却取得了真正的成功，或者只是在商业上真正擅长这一点的人？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: I can give you many examples.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：我可以举很多例子。

One of my favorite examples would be Jason Calacanis.

我最喜欢的例子之一是杰森·卡拉卡尼斯 (Jason Calacanis)。

I don't know if you know Jason.

我不知道你是否认识杰森。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh yeah, I know you did a case study on him.

Lenny Rachitsky：哦，是的，我知道你对他做了案例研究。

I know him well.

我很了解他。

Yeah.

是的。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: So I think Jason, I think consistently breaks all kinds of rules.

杰弗里·普费弗：所以我认为杰森一直违反各种规则。

First of all, when he comes to my class, nobody likes him, but that's okay.

首先，当他来到我的班级时，没有人喜欢他，但这没关系。

Almost nobody likes him.

几乎没有人喜欢他。

But...

但是...

Lenny Rachitsky: That's power number one.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是第一大力量。

He's not worried about.

他并不担心。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Yeah, that's number one.

杰弗里·普费弗：是的，这是第一。

But also I think there's a conventional wisdom in the venture capital industry which he defies almost completely.

但我也认为风险投资行业有一种传统观念，而他几乎完全违背了这种观念。

He makes a lot of little bets, not a few big bets.

他下了很多小赌注，而不是几个大赌注。

He runs a very lean operation.

他的运营非常精简。

He doesn't have a lot of partners.

他没有很多伙伴。

He doesn't have actually any partners, so he can't be fired by his partners.

他实际上没有任何合伙人，所以他不可能被合伙人解雇。

He began his career in journalism, which is interesting.

他的职业生涯始于新闻业，这很有趣。

Being a journalist is a wonderful job because you get to ask people all kinds of questions.

成为一名记者是一项很棒的工作，因为你可以向人们提出各种各样的问题。

And if you ask smart people questions, and you have some reasonable level of intelligence yourself, at the end of that process, you're going to wind up incredibly smart and incredibly insightful.

如果你向聪明人提出问题，并且你自己也有一定的智力水平，那么在这个过程结束时，你将变得非常聪明和具有令人难以置信的洞察力。

And he wound up incredibly smart and insightful around aspects of the internet industry.

他对互联网行业的各个方面都非常聪明和富有洞察力。

Lenny Rachitsky: And he definitely has a lot of power.

Lenny Rachitsky：他确实拥有很大的权力。

I think I am going to link to the case study in our show notes where you basically walk through how he went from nothing to a very powerful person.

我想我将链接到我们演出笔记中的案例研究，您基本上会了解他如何从一无所有到一个非常强大的人。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: And by the way, a very rich person as well.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：顺便说一句，他也是一个非常富有的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about another power, power five, networking relentlessly.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们来谈谈另一种力量，力量五，无情的网络。

What does that look like and how do you get better at this?

那是什么样子的？你如何在这方面做得更好？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Well, I think there's research that shows that many people find networking dirty, and that's because I think they think about it in the wrong way.

杰弗里·普费弗：嗯，我认为有研究表明许多人认为网络很肮脏，那是因为我认为他们以错误的方式思考它。

My friend John Levy, who has written a fabulous book, You're Invited.

我的朋友约翰·利维（John Levy）写了一本精彩的书《你被邀请了》。

Which is a book about how to put on events that people want to come to.

这是一本关于如何举办人们愿意参加的活动的书。

Is a fabulous human being.

是一个了不起的人。

Will tell you that the first principle of networking is in fact generosity.

会告诉你，交际的第一原则其实就是慷慨。

It's generosity.

这是慷慨。

What can I do for you?

我能为你做什么？

How can I be helpful?

我可以如何提供帮助？

Who can I introduce you to?

我可以把你介绍给谁？

Either a company or a product or a person who can be helpful to you in your career.

可以对你的职业生涯有帮助的公司、产品或人。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: But in order to be able to introduce you to someone who's going to be useful to you, I have to know people.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：但是为了能够向您介绍对您有用的人，我必须认识人。

If I don't know anybody, I can't introduce you to anybody.

如果我不认识任何人，我就无法把你介绍给任何人。

And the more people I know, the more likely it will be that if you say, I need to know somebody in X, I will know that person.

我认识的人越多，如果你说，我需要认识 X 中的某个人，我就越有可能认识那个人。

So the broader your social network, the more people and the more things you will know.

所以你的社交网络越广，你认识的人和事就越多。

If knowledge is power, networking is a fabulous way to get knowledge about people and about ideas.

如果知识就是力量，那么网络就是获取有关人和思想的知识的绝佳方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's funny to hear this where it's like, yes, obviously this is right, but connecting it to if you want to become more powerful, more successful, you need to do this.

Lenny Rachitsky：听到这个很有趣，是的，显然这是正确的，但是如果你想变得更强大，更成功，你需要这样做。

I think that is a powerful point that we're all making here, is just like this actually is necessary if you want to acquire more power.

我认为这是我们在这里提出的一个强有力的观点，就像如果你想获得更多权力，这实际上是必要的。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Of course.

杰弗里·普费弗：当然。

I have a funny story about networking.

我有一个关于网络的有趣故事。

So we have a thing in Stanford called View From The Top, in which these fancy people come in and give a talk.

因此，我们在斯坦福大学举办了一场名为“View From The Top”的活动，这些优秀的人士会进来发表演讲。

And one of the people came in and give a talk and made my class instantly popular, because he's an extraordinarily wealthy person.

其中一个人进来发表演讲，让我的班级立即受欢迎，因为他是一个非常富有的人。

His name is Omid Kordestani, and so I reached out to him and I said, "Omid, let's have breakfast." So I can understand because during the thing, when somebody asked them what class was the most important in his success, he said mine.

他的名字叫奥米德·科德斯塔尼，所以我向他伸出手说：“奥米德，我们吃早餐吧。”所以我可以理解，因为在这件事中，当有人问他们哪一门课对他的成功最重要时，他说是我的。

So I said, "Tell me your story." He said, "Well, I graduated from Stanford.

所以我说：“告诉我你的故事。”他说：“嗯，我毕业于斯坦福大学。

I'm Persian in background, immigrant background.

我是波斯人，有移民背景。

An engineer, HP, all the things that would make you kind of a nerd or something." He said, "I went to work for a couple of startups that didn't do well.

工程师、惠普，所有能让你成为书呆子之类的东西。”他说：“我曾为几家表现不佳的初创公司工作过。

Then I found myself in the mid-nineties at Netscape." The browser company, big deal.

然后我发现自己已经九十年代中期在网景了。”浏览器公司，大事。

Anyway, Marc Andreessen.

无论如何，马克·安德森。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Okay.

杰弗里·普费弗：好的。

"So I found myself in Netscape in marketing and business development.

“所以我发现自己在 Netscape 从事营销和业务开发工作。

I was not making any progress.

我没有取得任何进展。

One day I decided to take your class to an extreme.

有一天，我决定把你们的课发挥到极致。

I decided to stop doing my job." So I said, "When people gave you projects to do or assignments or tasks and you didn't do them?" He said, "It turns out that I spent my time, not obviously at the bar, but in networking first with people inside of Netscape.

我决定不再做我的工作。”所以我说，“当人们给你做项目、作业或任务而你却没有做时？”他说：“事实证明，我的时间并不是在酒吧，而是首先与 Netscape 内部的人建立了联系。

And it turns out if you're well-connected to the senior leaders, they don't really care if you do your job or not.

事实证明，如果你与高层领导关系密切，他们并不真正关心你是否做好了你的工作。

That's number one.

这是第一。

Number two," he said, "oftentimes I can find other people to do the work I was doing.

第二，”他说，“通常我可以找到其他人来做我正在做的工作。

So instead of basically spending time doing my job, I networked first within Netscape." But Netscape was not that big of a company.

因此，我并没有把时间花在工作上，而是首先在 Netscape 中建立了网络。”但网景并不是一家大公司。

So after a while he decided to go through, which is by the way, his job anyway, in marketing and business, he decided to basically drive through the Silicon Valley talking to people.

因此，过了一段时间，他决定经历一下，顺便说一句，无论如何，他的工作是在营销和商业方面，他决定基本上开车穿过硅谷与人们交谈。

And this is the rest of the browsers are just beginning.

而这对于其他浏览器来说才刚刚开始。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Nobody knows what a browser is, nobody knows what the internet is going to become.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：没有人知道浏览器是什么，没有人知道互联网会变成什么样。

So he's having all these fabulous conversations.

所以他正在进行所有这些精彩的对话。

All right, so he now knows basically everybody.

好吧，所以他现在基本上认识所有人了。

It's 1998 and a little tiny company decides 10 engineers, typical Silicon Valley company.

这是 1998 年，一家小公司决定 10 名工程师，典型的硅谷公司。

10 engineers, all engineers.

工程师10人，全部是工程师。

I have a friend who went to work for a company, run a company that had 26 people.

我有一个朋友去一家公司工作，经营一家有 26 名员工的公司。

He didn't have one sales and marketing person.

他没有一名销售和营销人员。

Anyway, the company now has 10 engineers.

不管怎样，公司现在有10名工程师。

They decide they need to hire their first business person.

他们决定需要雇用第一个业务人员。

Being an analytically oriented company, they say, we're going to do this very analytically.

他们说，作为一家以分析为导向的公司，我们将非常分析地做这件事。

We are basically going to ask everybody we can think of, and a few people we can't.

我们基本上会询问所有我们能想到的人，以及一些我们想不到的人。

Give us a list of the best technically oriented business people that you know.

请向我们提供您所认识的最优秀的技术型商业人士名单。

And there is of course one name that appears on every list.

当然，每个名单上都会出现一个名字。

It is Omid Kordestani who becomes employee number 11 at Google and makes two and a half billion dollars.

奥米德·科德斯塔尼 (Omid Kordestani) 成为谷歌第 11 号员工，年收入 2.5 亿美元。

Lenny Rachitsky: Great success from networking.

Lenny Rachitsky：网络取得了巨大成功。

Well done.

干得好。

When people hear about networking, it just feels like you said, very cringe.

当人们听到网络时，就像你说的那样，非常令人畏缩。

I don't want to go to these networking events and try to pretend to talk and care about people.

我不想参加这些社交活动并试图假装与人​​交谈并关心别人。

Do you have any advice for just how to make networking feel less cringy?

对于如何让社交感觉不那么尴尬，你有什么建议吗？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: One of the exercises I give my students is I say, write a list of 10 people who, if you knew them and if they knew you, would be important for whatever you're trying to accomplish in your career.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：我给学生的练习之一是，写下 10 个人的名单，如果你认识他们，如果他们也认识你，这些人对于你在职业生涯中想要实现的任何目标都将很重要。

So maybe you're trying to get into biotech, you need to know 10 executives in biotech or whatever.

所以也许你想进入生物技术领域，你需要认识 10 名生物技术或其他领域的高管。

Make a list of 10 people.

列出 10 人的名单。

Then for each person figure out how you are going to meet them.

然后为每个人弄清楚你将如何见到他们。

By the way, not necessarily in a network event.

顺便说一句，不一定是在网络事件中。

Maybe you want to do what John Levy does, which is hold dinners.

也许你想做约翰·利维所做的事情，那就是举办晚宴。

In which by the way, the guests do the cooking, which is a very interesting idea.

顺便说一下，客人自己做饭，这是一个非常有趣的想法。

That of course taps into the IKEA effect.

这当然利用了宜家效应。

You always like something better if you participate in creating it.

如果你参与创造某样东西，你总是会喜欢它。

Maybe you want to hold dinners, maybe you want to try to reach out to them at lunch.

也许您想举办晚宴，也许您想在午餐时尝试与他们联系。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Maybe you want to reach out to them and say, here's an article I think you'd be interested in.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：也许您想联系他们并说，这是一篇我认为您会感兴趣的文章。

Here is somebody who I think you'd benefit from meeting.

我认为与他会面你会受益匪浅。

So recently, I'm not a particularly good networker, though I'm better I guess than some people.

所以最近，我不是一个特别好的网络达人，尽管我想我比某些人更好。

I recently met Esther Wojcicki, I'm sure I killed her name.

我最近遇到了埃丝特·沃西基，我确信我把她的名字弄掉了。

She's considered the grandmother of Silicon Valley.

她被认为是硅谷的祖母。

She's Susan Wojcicki's mother.

她是苏珊·沃西基的母亲。

And she is interested in depression, particularly depression among teenagers.

她对抑郁症很感兴趣，尤其是青少年的抑郁症。

And I said, you should know Leanne Williams, who's in the Psychiatry and Behavioral Science Department, who has done probably 300 articles on depression and has invented something which is called Precision Psychiatry.

我说，你应该认识 Leanne Williams，她在精神病学和行为科学系，发表了大约 300 篇关于抑郁症的文章，并发明了一种叫做“精确精神病学”的东西。

So I connected them to each other.

所以我把它们相互联系起来。

Just send an email.

只需发送电子邮件即可。

I think you ought to know each other.

我想你们应该互相认识。

They got together.

他们在一起了。

I get credit for knowing people and connecting them, but I also benefit them.

我因了解人们并与他们建立联系而受到赞誉，但我也使他们受益。

Leanne needs to raise money.

莉安需要筹集资金。

Esther's got money.

埃丝特有钱。

Esther needs to understand the cutting edge research in depression and biomarkers of depression, which is what Leanne's specialty is, so they benefit.

Esther 需要了解抑郁症和抑郁症生物标志物的前沿研究，这正是 Leanne 的专长，因此他们受益匪浅。

So this is not some icky thing.

所以这不是什么令人讨厌的事情。

This is connecting people who benefit from being connected.

这将那些从联系中受益的人们联系起来。

Lenny Rachitsky: That touches on something you teach in the book is, in your networking you want to become a broker, you want to be central.

Lenny Rachitsky：这涉及到你在书中教授的东西，在你的网络中，你想成为经纪人，你想成为中心。

That's kind of what you want to work on.

这就是你想要做的事情。

Can you talk a bit about what that means?

你能谈谈这意味着什么吗？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Well, that means you want to connect people.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：嗯，这意味着您想要将人们联系起来。

So many people with benefits, and many groups with benefits for being connected, and they're not connected.

很多人都受益匪浅，许多团体也因相互联系而受益，但他们却没有相互联系。

What does a venture capitalist do?

风险投资家做什么的？

Connects people with ideas to people with money, and takes a fee for doing it.

将有想法的人与有钱的人联系起来，并收取费用。

What does an investment banker do?

投资银行家做什么的？

Connects people trying to sell businesses or raise capital with people trying to buy businesses or who have capital.

将试图出售企业或筹集资金的人们与试图购买企业或拥有资本的人们联系起来。

What's a real estate agent do?

房地产经纪人是做什么的？

Connects buyers and sellers of houses.

连接房屋买家和卖家。

There are all kinds of examples where the person's entire job is connecting people.

有各种各样的例子表明，一个人的整个工作就是将人们联系起来。

But even for the people whose job it isn't, you benefit from knowing people.

但即使对于那些不从事该工作的人来说，了解他人也会让你受益匪浅。

The more people you know, the more things you know.

你认识的人越多，你知道的事就越多。

As I sometimes say in my class, if leadership management, call it what you will, is getting things done through other people, it seems like common sense that the more other people you know, the more you'll be able to get done.

正如我有时在课堂上所说，如果领导力管理（无论你怎么称呼它）是通过其他人完成工作，那么你认识的其他人越多，你就能完成的工作就越多，这似乎是常识。

Lenny Rachitsky: As someone that has become central to a lot of things in the product world, and has built a large network as a result of this podcast newsletter, I can tell you a thousand percent.

Lenny Rachitsky：作为一个已经成为产品世界中很多事情的核心的人，并且通过这篇播客新闻通讯建立了一个庞大的网络，我可以百分之一千地告诉你。

This creates a lot of opportunity and power, you could say in quotes.

这创造了很多机会和力量，你可以在引号中说。

So I've seen it happen.

所以我已经看到它发生了。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Heap, the product analytics solution that shows you everything users do on your digital product, website, mobile product or other digital services.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Heap 为您带来，Heap 是一款产品分析解决方案，可向您展示用户在您的数字产品、网站、移动产品或其他数字服务上所做的一切。

We all know a great digital experience when we see it.

当我们看到它时，我们都知道这是一种很棒的数字体验。

It's intuitive, it anticipates your needs, and it makes it easy for you to do your job.

它很直观，可以预测您的需求，并且可以让您轻松完成工作。

If you're trying to build that kind of experience for your users, you need up to date, reliable information about what your users do in your product and why they do it.

如果您想为用户打造这种体验，您需要有关用户在您的产品中执行哪些操作以及为何执行此操作的最新、可靠的信息。

Want to know how your users behave across platforms, what keeps them coming back, what they're doing that you're not even aware of?

想知道您的用户在跨平台上的行为方式、是什么让他们回来、他们在做什么而您甚至不知道？

Well, I have some great news for you.

嗯，我有一些好消息要告诉你。

Heap captures all of this user activity for you automatically, and then gives you definitive answers to all your questions about user behavior in seconds, not weeks.

堆会自动为您捕获所有这些用户活动，然后在几秒钟（而不是几周）内为您提供有关用户行为的所有问题的明确答案。

With Heap, it's easy to prioritize the product investments that improve conversion, engagement and retention.

借助 Heap，可以轻松确定可提高转化率、参与度和保留率的产品投资的优先顺序。

Visit heap.io/Lenny to get started with a demo.

访问 heap.io/Lenny 开始演示。

That's H-E-A-P dot I-O slash Lenny.

这是 H-E-A-P 点 I-O 斜线 Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Another lesson I guess you teach is to pursue weak ties.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想你教的另一个教训是追求弱联系。

Talk a bit about what that means.

谈谈这意味着什么。

What do you mean by that?

你这是什么意思？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Well, the people to whom you are strongly tied, your family, your spouse, significant other, your friends, the people who work with you at work will probably, because they are close to you, know the same things and the same people that you do.

杰弗里·普费弗：嗯，那些与你有密切联系的人，你的家人，你的配偶，重要的其他人，你的朋友，在工作中与你一起工作的人可能会因为与你关系密切而认识与你相同的事物和人。

So to the extent that you build ties with people who are more different from you in every dimension, you are more likely to learn non-redundant information, and come in contact with people that you don't already know.

因此，只要你与在各个方面都与你更加不同的人建立联系，你就更有可能学到非冗余信息，并与你不认识的人接触。

This again seems common sense.

这似乎又是常识。

There's a lot of research behind it.

它背后有很多研究。

Mark Granovetter, a sociologist who still teaches at Stanford, wrote a book entitled The Strength of Weak Ties.

马克·格兰诺维特（Mark Granovetter）是一位仍在斯坦福大学任教的社会学家，他写了一本名为《弱关系的力量》的书。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: And basically, no, actually, pardon me.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：基本上，不，实际上，请原谅我。

He wrote an article called The Strength of Weak Ties.

他写了一篇名为《弱关系的力量》的文章。

His book was called Getting a Job.

他的书名叫《找工作》。

And he did a study, I guess it was at that time in Boston.

他做了一项研究，我猜是当时在波士顿。

He did a study of job seekers in Massachusetts, and he looked at people who got jobs through applying to ads, through more formal means.

他对马萨诸塞州的求职者进行了一项研究，观察了通过更正式的方式申请广告而找到工作的人。

And then he looked at people who got jobs through referrals from their network.

然后他研究了通过网络推荐找到工作的人。

And it turns out, of course, the jobs that you get through your network referrals are much better jobs.

当然，事实证明，通过网络推荐获得的工作要好得多。

And oftentimes the best jobs that people got were referred to them by people that were not particularly close to them.

通常，人们获得的最好的工作是由与他们关系不太密切的人推荐的。

Because they had a view, that's the word I was looking for, a view into the ecosystem of the Boston labor market, that the other people didn't have because they weren't in the same place as the other people.

因为他们有一种观点，这就是我要找的词，一种对波士顿劳动力市场生态系统的观点，而其他人没有这种观点，因为他们与其他人不在同一个地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that lesson.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢那节课。

Let's talk about another power, which is using your power.

我们来谈谈另一种力量，那就是使用你的力量。

So when people think of using your power builds more power, that's not intuitive.

因此，当人们认为使用你的力量可以产生更多力量时，这并不直观。

You talk about how it creates this self-perpetuating growth of power the more you practice power.

你谈到了你越多地运用权力，它是如何创造这种自我延续的权力增长的。

Can you talk a bit about that?

你能谈谈这个吗？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Sure.

杰弗里·普费弗：当然。

So when you are given, it's interesting, my friend Deborah Gruenfeld, who wrote a book called Acting with Power, talks a lot about people's ambivalence to power.

所以当你被给予时，很有趣的是，我的朋友黛博拉·格伦菲尔德（Deborah Gruenfeld）写了一本名为《以权力行事》的书，其中谈到了很多关于人们对权力的矛盾心理。

So sometimes people are put in a job.

所以有时人们会被安排去工作。

Herminia Ibarra who teaches now at London Business School, at one point taught in Seattle, at one point taught at Harvard, has an article in the Harvard Business Review in which she talks about a woman in a drug company who gets a promotion, and says to her colleagues, to whom she's now overseeing, that she's not sure why she got the job.

赫米尼娅·伊瓦拉（Herminia Ibarra）现在在伦敦商学院任教，曾在西雅图任教，一度在哈佛大学任教，她在《哈佛商业评论》上发表了一篇文章，其中她谈到了一家制药公司的一名女性获得晋升，并对她现在监督的同事说，她不确定自己为什么得到这份工作。

She's not sure she deserves the job.

她不确定自己是否值得这份工作。

Needless to say, she didn't do very well in this job because she got in her own way.

不用说，她在这份工作上做得并不好，因为她妨碍了自己。

But part of this is you are put in a position of power.

但这部分是因为你被置于权力地位。

You're put in a position of authority in order to make things happen.

为了让事情发生，你被置于权威的位置。

So to the extent you mobilize your resources and get things to happen, you'll get more resources.

因此，只要你调动资源并让事情发生，你就会获得更多资源。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: People want to be associated with success.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：人们希望与成功联系在一起。

To the extent that you become successful, more people will want to work with you.

只要您成功，就会有更多的人愿意与您合作。

To the extent that you get more stuff done, you'll get more promotions, more opportunities.

当你完成更多的事情时，你就会获得更多的晋升、更多的机会。

Nobody's going to give you a job to do if the last five jobs like that they gave you, you couldn't get done.

如果他们给你的最后五份工作你都无法完成，那么没有人会给你一份工作。

So the more you are able to do, which oftentimes of course requires power and influence, the more you're able to do, the more you'll be asked to do.

因此，你能做的越多，这通常需要权力和影响力，你能做的越多，就会被要求做的越多。

But better yet, the more resources you'll be given to help you get things done.

但更好的是，您将获得更多资源来帮助您完成工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I think there's interestingly you teach that just showing that you have power creates more power.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为有趣的是，你教导说，只要表现出你拥有权力，就会创造更多权力。

People see that you have this power and they start to follow your lead more, right?

人们看到你有这种力量，他们就会开始更多地追随你的领导，对吗？

That's a part of this.

这是其中的一部分。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Yep.

杰弗里·普费弗：是的。

I just saw over the weekend the movie, the latest movie in the franchise of the Planet of the Apes.

我周末刚看了这部电影，《猩球崛起》系列的最新电影。

When Jim Collins left Stanford, he gave me a book called Chimpanzee Politics, which is of course not based on the Planet of the Apes, but it's based upon the study of chimpanzees.

当吉姆·柯林斯离开斯坦福大学时，他给了我一本叫做《黑猩猩政治》的书，这本书当然不是基于《猩球崛起》，而是基于对黑猩猩的研究。

We are the same.

我们是一样的。

People are attracted to power, you know that.

人们都被权力所吸引，你知道的。

By the way, that will account for a lot of what is going to happen in the presidential election.

顺便说一句，这将解释总统选举中将发生的很多事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's save that for the end, because I think that's an interesting piece of your book, of the connection to Trump.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：我们把这个留到最后吧，因为我认为这是你书中有趣的一部分，关于与特朗普的联系。

So let's save that for a bit.

所以让我们暂时保存一下。

I think that'll be really interesting.

我认为这会非常有趣。

Kind of along the same lines of the area we're just talking about.

与我们刚才讨论的领域有点相似。

And another rule of power is to show up in a powerful fashion.

权力的另一条规则是以强大的方式出现。

So look powerful, talk about what that looks like.

所以看起来很强大，谈谈它是什么样子的。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: So my colleague at Berkeley, Dana Carney, C-A-R-N-E-Y, is writing a book called Tell, which is about the importance of body language and how to master body language.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：我在伯克利的同事 Dana Carney（C-A-R-N-E-Y）正在写一本名为 Tell 的书，该书讲述了肢体语言的重要性以及如何掌握肢体语言。

There is some evidence that suggests we respond mostly to how people look, secondarily to how they sound, and by far the least important to the content of what they say.

有一些证据表明，我们主要对人们的外表做出反应，其次是他们的声音，而到目前为止，对他们所说的内容最不重要。

You can see this by turning on your TV and turning off the sound.

您可以通过打开电视并关闭声音来看到这一点。

Watch the presidential debates with the sound off.

关掉声音观看总统辩论。

They'll be much better.

他们会好很多。

I have another colleague in marketing by the name of Baba Shiv, who talks about people's freaky mind, or the idea that we are in fact descended from primates, and that we are controlled in lots of ways by our emotions.

我的另一位营销同事名叫巴巴·希夫（Baba Shiv），他谈到了人们的怪异思想，或者说我们实际上是灵长类动物的后裔，并且我们在很多方面受到情绪的控制。

And so we respond affectively to other people.

因此，我们会对其他人做出情感反应。

We respond to how they look.

我们对他们的外表做出反应。

There's evidence in economics that suggests tall people earn more salaries, control, earn more money, controlling for lots of things, attractive people.

经济学中有证据表明，个子高的人能赚更多的薪水、控制力、赚更多的钱、控制很多事情、有吸引力的人。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: As long as you're not too attractive, you earn more money.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：只要你不太有吸引力，你就能赚更多的钱。

Optimal level of attractiveness because people respond subconsciously to how people look, how they sound, how they show up, how they present themselves.

最佳的吸引力水平是因为人们会下意识地对别人的外表、声音、外表和自我表现做出反应。

In my class, I take the example of Tony Hayward of BP, the Macondo oil spill, and Lloyd Blankfein who was accused of shorting the securities that he was selling, which by the way, Goldman did.

在我的课堂上，我以英国石油公司的托尼·海沃德（Tony Hayward）、马孔多漏油事件和劳埃德·布兰克芬（Lloyd Blankfein）为例，后者被指控做空他所出售的证券，顺便说一句，高盛也这么做了。

And before I let them hear Tony or Lloyd, we show about 60 seconds.

在我让他们听到托尼或劳埃德之前，我们展示了大约 60 秒。

And Lloyd's case 34 seconds with no sound.

而劳埃德的案子34秒没有声音。

And even if you did not know who these people were and I asked you to make a bet, who's going to keep their job and who's going to lose it?

即使你不知道这些人是谁，而我让你打赌，谁会保住工作，谁会失去工作？

You would know just from their physical appearance.

你只要从他们的外表就可以知道。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: And by the way, what Dana Carney will tell you, and what common sense will tell you, is that these are skills that can be mastered.

杰弗里·普费弗：顺便说一句，达纳·卡尼会告诉你，常识也会告诉你，这些都是可以掌握的技能。

Robert de Niro was not born Robert de Niro, in the sense of acting skills are learned.

罗伯特·德尼罗并不是天生的罗伯特·德尼罗，从某种意义上来说演技是后天习得的。

How you show up, how you command the room.

你如何出现，你如何指挥房间。

There's a guy named Regis McKenna who is older than God, who's famous for running a very, very, very fancy public relations firm in the Silicon Valley.

有一个叫雷吉斯·麦肯纳（Regis McKenna）的人比上帝还老，他因在硅谷经营一家非常非常非常豪华的公关公司而闻名。

And his biggest contribution to life, as well as by the way to his personal wealth, is that he made Steve Jobs Steve Jobs.

他对生活以及个人财富的最大贡献是他造就了史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）。

When Steve Jobs began, Steve Jobs couldn't convince you to buy water if you were dying of thirst.

当史蒂夫·乔布斯开始时，如果你渴得要死，史蒂夫·乔布斯无法说服你去买水。

He could not give a presentation to save his life.

他无法通过演讲来挽救自己的生命。

And Regis McKenna and his team took Steve Jobs under their wing and created Steve Jobs, a man who could sell anything to anybody.

雷吉斯·麦肯纳和他的团队将史蒂夫·乔布斯纳入麾下，创造了史蒂夫·乔布斯，一个可以向任何人推销任何东西的人。

These are skills.

这些都是技能。

This is not about personality.

这与个性无关。

This is not about undergoing some kind of cosmetic surgery or whatever.

这与接受某种整容手术或其他什么无关。

These are skills, everything we've talked about, networking, showing up, all these things.

这些都是技能，我们谈论的一切，网络，展示，所有这些东西。

These are skills that can be learned.

这些都是可以学习的技能。

Lenny Rachitsky: I have a list of some of the stuff you actually recommend for looking and appearing powerful.

Lenny Rachitsky：我列出了一些你实际上推荐的看起来很强大的东西。

So I'll read a few and I'm curious what else comes to mind.

所以我会读一些，我很好奇还会想到什么。

So do not read from notes.

所以不要看笔记。

Make eye contact.

进行目光接触。

Keep it brief.

保持简短。

You say that anger can be a signal of power because it's outside the norm.

你说愤怒可以成为权力的信号，因为它超出了常态。

It's kind of breaking the rules.

这有点违反规则。

Don't apologize.

别道歉。

It's kind of the opposite.

这有点相反。

More gestures, which is interesting.

更多的手势，这很有趣。

Open body posture.

打开身体姿势。

Louder voice.

声音更大。

Okay, I'm going to speak louder now.

好吧，我现在要大声说话。

I like this.

我喜欢这个。

Okay, what else comes to mind as ways to appear powerful?

好吧，除了这些之外，你还能想到什么方式来显得强大呢？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Invading people's personal space.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：侵犯人们的个人空间。

So gentle touching, standing close to someone.

如此温柔的触摸，站在某人身边。

We're not talking about sexual touching, we're talking touch on the arm or the shoulder, shaking people's hands.

我们不是在谈论性接触，而是在谈论手臂或肩膀上的接触，以及与人握手。

That's a way of I think being more powerful.

这是我认为变得更强大的一种方式。

But you've covered the main ones.

但您已经涵盖了主要内容。

Eye contact.

目光接触。

One of the problems with Tony Hayward of BP is that he's been given a statement to read.

英国石油公司托尼·海沃德面临的问题之一是他收到了一份声明供他阅读。

You cannot read something in front of you and make eye contact at the same time.

你无法一边阅读眼前的内容，一边进行眼神交流。

So he looks like he's scripted.

所以他看起来就像是按剧本写的。

He looks like he's insincere.

他看起来不真诚。

Jack Valenti, who I had the privilege of knowing, who for 38 years was the head of the Motion Picture Association of America, and typically rated one of the number one or number two most effective lobbyists in Washington DC, said to my class when he came to my class, which he did, "I never appeared before Congress with notes.

我有幸认识杰克·瓦伦蒂（Jack Valenti），他担任美国电影协会主席 38 年，通常被评为华盛顿特区第一或第二最有效的游说者之一，他来到我的班级时对我的班级说：“我从来没有带着笔记出现在国会面前。

I wanted them to believe, which was by the way, true, that I was in complete control and complete mastery of the material, and that I did not need notes or a bunch of assistants around me to help me.

我希望他们相信，顺便说一句，这是真的，我完全控制和完全掌握了这些材料，并且我不需要笔记或周围的一群助手来帮助我。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: That I, as the head of the MPAA, understood the motion picture industry." And then he would give you a little aside about how it was the one industry that consistently had a budget surplus in trade.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：作为 MPAA 的负责人，我了解电影行业。”然后他会向你介绍一下这个行业是如何在贸易中持续保持预算盈余的。

He would talk about how many jobs he created and he had all this stuff at his fingertips.

他会谈论他创造了多少就业机会，而所有这些东西都触手可及。

But basically his command of the material made him more powerful.

但基本上，他对材料的掌握使他变得更加强大。

It's interesting, Jack Valenti was five foot two inches tall and he came, talked to my class, and the next class I said to people, "What are your reactions?

有趣的是，杰克·瓦伦蒂身高五英尺二英寸，他来和我的班级交谈，下一堂课我对人们说，“你们的反应是什么？

What are your thoughts?" And a woman raised her hand and said, "He feels taller than he is." And I thought that was an assessment that was both true and insightful.

你有什么想法？”一位女士举起手说：“他感觉比实际身高高。”我认为这是一个既真实又富有洞察力的评估。

When the five-foot-two Jack Valenti appeared, because of his presence, because of his body language, because of his Texas drawl, because of how he moved on the stage, he felt bigger.

当身高五英尺二英寸的杰克·瓦伦蒂出现时，因为他的存在，因为他的肢体语言，因为他德克萨斯州的慢吞吞的语气，因为他在舞台上的移动方式，他感觉自己更大了。

You would not say he did not feel five-foot-two.

你不会说他感觉不到五英尺二英寸。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me read a couple more because this is a good example of stuff he did.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我再读一些，因为这是他所做的事情的一个很好的例子。

Other ways to appear more powerful is more speaking time, longer gazing time, more disinhibited laughs.

其他显得更有力量的方法是更多的说话时间、更长的凝视时间、更多的不拘一格的笑声。

Is that just you laughing and feeling like you're just...

难道只是你在笑并且感觉你只是......

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Well, humor.

杰弗里·普费弗：嗯，幽默。

Humor.

幽默。

The famous author, Salman Rushdie said, and I quote Salman Rushdie, it's a fabulous quote.

著名作家萨尔曼·拉什迪说过，我引用萨尔曼·拉什迪的话，这是一句绝妙的话。

"If you can get people to laugh, you can tell them anything."

“如果你能让人们笑，你就可以告诉他们任何事情。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, stand-up comedy is a great example that.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，单口喜剧就是一个很好的例子。

So again, I think here people might be hearing this and they're like, I don't want to be this person.

再说一次，我认为人们可能会听到这个，他们会说，我不想成为这个人。

I don't want to be talking all the time.

我不想一直说话。

I don't want to be pretending like open posture.

我不想假装开放的姿势。

Is the advice here just you don't need to do all these things.

这里的建议只是你不需要做所有这些事情。

Just know this makes people more powerful.

只要知道这会让人们变得更强大。

Don't necessarily judge people, do some of these things maybe because it'll add to your power?

不一定要评判别人，做一些这样的事情也许是因为它会增加你的力量？

How do you think about just people that are turned off by this sort of thing?

您如何看待那些对此类事情感到厌烦的人？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: That's a wonderful question.

杰弗里·普费弗：这是一个很好的问题。

So I say to my class, on the very first day of class, that we will go through four stages.

所以我在上课的第一天就对我的班级说，我们将经历四个阶段。

We'll go through the stage of denial.

我们将经历否认的阶段。

It doesn't work in my culture, it doesn't work in my organization, doesn't work for me, it doesn't work in my religion, whatever.

它在我的文化中不起作用，在我的组织中不起作用，对我不起作用，在我的宗教中不起作用，无论如何。

Then we'll go through anger.

然后我们就会经历愤怒。

When they get angry at me, how can you teach us this stuff?

当他们对我生气时，你怎么能教我们这些东西？

Then they'll go into sadness.

然后他们就会陷入悲伤。

I actually believe this and I'm depressed.

我确实相信这一点，而且我很沮丧。

And if we're successful, they will go through acceptance.

如果我们成功了，他们就会被接受。

And the process I have, again, I do not have the most popular class at Stanford Business School because I am good-looking, because I'm the smartest person at Stanford or anything else.

再说一次，我的过程是，我没有在斯坦福商学院上最受欢迎的课程，因为我长得好看，因为我是斯坦福大学最聪明的人或其他什么。

I am strategic about thinking about if I have someone who's going to come into this class, I have to get them from denial to acceptance in 10 weeks.

我战略性地考虑，如果我有人要进入这个班级，我必须在 10 周内让他们从拒绝到接受。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: And how are we going to do that?

Jeffrey Pfeffer：我们要怎么做呢？

The easiest way to do that, if I said, Lenny, I want you to become a better tennis player, or a better roller blader, or a better ice skater, whatever, a better piano player in 10 weeks, what would we do?

最简单的方法是，如果我说，莱尼，我希望你在 10 周内成为一名更好的网球运动员，或者一名更好的轮滑运动员，或者一名更好的滑冰运动员，无论如何，一名更好的钢琴演奏家，我们会做什么？

If we have practice and coaching.

如果我们有练习和指导。

And that's what I do in the class, practice and coaching.

这就是我在课堂、练习和辅导中所做的事情。

I have executive coaches who work with the class and I give them assignments that ask them to practice what they're learning.

我有高管教练与班级一起工作，我给他们布置作业，要求他们练习所学的内容。

And therefore, by the end of the class, most people have made this transition because it is true.

因此，到课程结束时，大多数人已经完成了这种转变，因为这是事实。

If you've never...

如果你从来没有...

I had a dinner the other night, this Israeli woman who's like, I've done amazing stuff.

那天晚上我吃了一顿晚餐，这位以色列女士说，我做了很棒的事情。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Which is fabulous.

这太棒了。

And she said at the dinner, she said, "I would've never done this before taking your class." And the way you get them to do this is I don't say, Lenny, you're going to swim the English Channel tomorrow.

她在晚宴上说，“在上你们的课之前，我绝不会这么做。”让他们这样做的方法是我不会说，莱尼，你明天要游过英吉利海峡。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: If I want you to swim the English Channel, we're going to start by swimming in pools and make every day a little bit more challenging.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：如果我想让你游过英吉利海峡，我们将从在游泳池里游泳开始，让每一天都变得更有挑战性。

That's what we do.

这就是我们所做的。

I don't start by saying, you're going to network like Keith Ferrazzi or John Levy, or you're not going to be as bold as Jason Calacanis, who trust me is extraordinarily bold.

我不会首先说，你要像 Keith Ferrazzi 或 John Levy 那样建立人际网络，或者你不会像 Jason Calacanis 那样大胆，他相信我非常大胆。

You're not going to necessarily do what I did.

你不一定会做我所做的事情。

You're going to begin where you can begin, and push yourself out of your comfort zone.

你将从你能开始的地方开始，并把自己推出舒适区。

Because, and again, this is common sense.

因为，这又是常识。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: There's also a ton of research behind it.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：这背后还有大量的研究。

If you always stay in your comfort zone, you'll never do anything different or better than what you're currently doing.

如果你总是呆在自己的舒适区，你永远不会做任何与你目前正在做的事情不同或更好的事情。

This is true.

这是真实的。

If I said to you, I want you to, at the end of 10 weeks, lift a hundred pounds, I can't do that by on the last day saying lift a hundred pounds.

如果我对你说，我希望你在 10 周结束时举起 100 磅，我不能在最后一天说举起 100 磅。

We have to work up to it.

我们必须努力做到这一点。

And that is, it's the same principle here.

也就是说，这里的原理是一样的。

So don't do something that looks so off the wall or so out of character for you that you can't conceive doing it.

因此，不要做一些看起来与你格格不入或与你的性格格格不入、以至于你无法想象的事情。

Push yourself a little, push yourself a little.

给自己一点压力，给自己一点压力。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's an interesting connection here too.

Lenny Rachitsky：这里也有一个有趣的联系。

What some say is kind of the opposite of your class at Stanford, which is Touchy-Feely.

有些人说的有点与斯坦福大学的班级相反，那就是“Touchy-Feely”。

We had Carole Robin on the podcast and she has a framework, the 15% rule where you push yourself 15% beyond your comfort zone.

我们的播客中有卡罗尔·罗宾（Carole Robin），她有一个框架，即 15% 规则，你可以将自己推向舒适区之外 15%。

Where it's just a little bit, but it's not too far, and it feels like you try to do a similar thing.

虽然只有一点点，但也不算太远，感觉就像你在尝试做类似的事情。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Yeah, absolutely.

杰弗里·普费弗：是的，绝对如此。

So you begin by doing what you don't think you can do.

所以你首先要做你认为自己做不到的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's spend a little more time here around the homework assignments, and this kind of Knowing-Doing Gap that you talked about.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们在家庭作业上多花一点时间，以及您谈到的这种“知行差距”。

So you shared a couple of homework assignments you give already, find 10 people, think of 10 people you want to meet that'll help you with your career and then try to meet them.

因此，你分享了一些你已经布置的家庭作业，找到 10 个人，想出 10 个你想认识的对你的职业生涯有帮助的人，然后尝试去见他们。

And then there's this, I guess my friend started a podcast, I don't know which homework it was.

然后就是这个，我猜我的朋友开始了一个播客，我不知道那是哪个作业。

What other homework assignments do you give?

你还布置了哪些其他家庭作业？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: So we begin, there's a literature on goal setting that says if you set goals, you're more likely to achieve them.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：那么我们开始吧，有一本关于目标设定的文献说，如果你设定目标，你就更有可能实现它们。

This is, again, not some huge insight, but there's an enormous scientific literature about this.

再说一遍，这并不是什么伟大的见解，但有大量关于这一点的科学文献。

And so I begin the very first homework assignment is, which is by the way, on the very first day of class, why are you here?

所以我开始了第一个作业，顺便说一句，在上课的第一天，你为什么在这里？

Why are you here?

你为什么在这里？

It is now the end of this class.

现在这堂课已经结束了。

What would success look like to you?

对你来说，成功是什么样的？

What would you like to accomplish in our 10 weeks together?

在我们在一起的 10 周内，您想完成什么？

Second assignment, I give them a reading from the Power book, which is the book before Seven Rules, which talks about the seven attributes of power.

第二个作业，我给他们朗读《权力》一书，这是《七条规则》之前的书，讲述了权力的七个属性。

Go out and get people to rate you on these or rate yourself.

出去让人们对你的这些进行评价或者对你自己进行评价。

Set for yourself a development plan, energy, focus, being willing to tolerate conflict, all these qualities.

为自己设定一个发展计划、精力、专注力、愿意容忍冲突，所有这些品质。

What are you strong on?

你有什么强项？

What are you weak on?

你有什么弱点？

What do you want to build during our time together, and how are you going to do it?

在我们在一起的时间里，你想构建什么？你将如何去做？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: So we begin with goal setting.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：所以我们从设定目标开始。

One of the assignments I give them, which is the class that Jason comes to, what resources can you create?

我给他们布置的作业之一，就是Jason所在的班级，你能创造什么资源？

You're at Stanford Business School, elite, fancy Stanford.

你就读于斯坦福大学商学院，精英大学，一流的斯坦福大学。

What can you do in your 10 weeks here?

在这里的 10 周里你能做什么？

I have people who created awards.

我有人创造了奖项。

A woman who created an award gave it to Karlie Kloss, the model.

一位创建该奖项的女性将其颁发给了模特卡莉·克劳斯 (Karlie Kloss)。

Got in trouble with the school.

与学校发生了麻烦。

It turns out it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

事实证明，请求原谅比请求许可更容易。

So what can you do to create resources that will give you some leverage?

那么，您可以做些什么来创建可以给您带来一些影响力的资源呢？

That would be a third assignment.

那将是第三项任务。

The networking is a fourth assignment.

网络是第四项任务。

The acting with power.

演技有实力。

I show them the videos and I tell them in advance of the class, and I tell them they need to become Tony Hayward.

我给他们看了视频，并在上课前告诉他们，我告诉他们他们需要成为托尼·海沃德。

They need to do a better job, which is, by the way, a low bar, representing BP.

他们需要做得更好，顺便说一下，这代表英国石油公司（BP）的标准很低。

And give me a 60 to 90 second video and then share it with colleagues and get feedback on it.

给我一个 60 到 90 秒的视频，然后与同事分享并获得反馈。

And then we're going to call on people in the class.

然后我们会去拜访班上的人。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: In other words, for every idea, I try to think of something.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：换句话说，对于每一个想法，我都会尝试想出一些东西。

And this is all, by the way, this is all front-loaded.

这就是全部，顺便说一句，这都是前置的。

And by the end of the class we're not doing this so much.

到课程结束时，我们就不再做那么多了。

But I try to give them an exercise that causes them to actually take that idea and implement it.

但我试着给他们一个练习，让他们真正接受这个想法并实施它。

Find people, oh, for branding.

找人，哦，为了品牌。

Write a personal brand statement, get some feedback on it, then write it again.

写一份个人品牌声明，获得一些反馈，然后再写一次。

How do you want to be known?

你想如何被人认识？

Which is by the way, useful to you because you're a second-year MBA, you're going to go in the job market.

顺便说一句，这对你很有用，因为你是 MBA 二年级学生，你将进入就业市场。

What do you want people to think about you?

你希望人们如何看待你？

How do you want people to respond to you?

你希望人们如何回应你？

How do you want to be known?

你想如何被人认识？

So I basically take for every topic and have them do it.

所以我基本上会考虑每个主题并让他们去做。

And then the coach, their person, their coach, who is responsible for 23 of these people, give them feedback on this.

然后教练，他们的人，他们的教练，负责其中 23 个人，给他们反馈。

Lenny Rachitsky: I could see how this makes a big impact on someone's life.

Lenny Rachitsky：我可以看到这对某人的生活有何重大影响。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Yeah.

杰弗里·普费弗：是的。

And so at the end, I had a student a couple years ago said to me, "It is not that I got more feedback and more useful feedback from your class than I did in any other class.

所以最后，几年前有一个学生对我说：“并不是说我从你们的课堂上得到的反馈和有用的反馈比我在其他任何课堂上得到的都多。

I got more useful feedback in your class than I did on every other class I took combined."

我在你们的课上得到的有用反馈比我在其他所有课程上得到的反馈还要多。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I can see why.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我明白为什么。

Let's talk about the last power.

我们来谈谈最后的力量。

So we've talked through six already.

我们已经讨论了六个。

We have only one more to go, which is maybe the one that probably upsets people most, which is that once you have power, people will forget what you did to get there.

我们只剩下一件事要走，这可能是最让人们不安的一件事，那就是一旦你拥有权力，人们就会忘记你为达到这一目标所做的一切。

Talk about what that looks like and is that a power or is it more just like this is what you should know about.

谈谈它是什么样子的，这是一种力量还是更像是你应该了解的。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: And I put in rule seven for the following reason.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：我出于以下原因制定了第七条规则。

In spite of everything that you and I have been talking about, many people in a stage of, I don't know, denial or something, say, I'm worried that if I do this, at the end...

尽管你和我一直在谈论一切，但很多人都处于，我不知道，否认或其他什么阶段，说，我担心如果我这样做，最后......

People believe that the world is homeostatic.

人们相信世界是稳态的。

It is not.

它不是。

That it's going to adjust, but whatever.

它会调整，但无论如何。

At the end I will be brought low.

最终我会被贬低。

They have the myth of Icarus in their head.

他们的脑子里有伊卡洛斯的神话。

You fly too close to the sun, your wings are going to melt, you're going to be brought down.

你飞得太靠近太阳，你的翅膀就会融化，你就会被击落。

And so I try to convince them, partly through a lecture and partly through rule seven.

所以我试图说服他们，部分通过讲座，部分通过第七条规则。

And some of the principles that I talk about in rule seven.

还有我在第七条规则中谈到的一些原则。

That, in fact, life is not homeostatic at all.

事实上，生命根本就不是稳态的。

That life is actually self-fulfilling.

这样的生活实际上是自我实现的。

If I believe you're powerful, you will become more powerful.

如果我相信你很强大，你就会变得更强大。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: If I believe you have no power, you will wind up with almost no power, and that therefore it is all forgotten and forgiven.

杰弗里·普费弗：如果我相信你没有力量，那么你最终将几乎没有力量，因此一切都会被遗忘和原谅。

And I begin, I believe I begin.

我开始了，我相信我开始了。

But if not, I could begin with the story of the South Carolina Senator who says nasty things about Trump, and then Lindsey Graham, and becomes Trump's biggest acolyte.

但如果没有，我可以从南卡罗来纳州参议员的故事开始，他对特朗普说了一些难听的话，然后是林赛·格雷厄姆，并成为特朗普最大的助手。

And the New York Times, of course, is fascinated by this.

当然，《纽约时报》对此很着迷。

How can you say all these horrible things about Trump and now be his, basically have your lips affixed to some part of his anatomy?

你怎么能说出关于特朗普的所有这些可怕的事情，而现在却成为他的，基本上把你的嘴唇贴在他身体的某个部分上？

And Lindsey's answer is, I want to be relevant.

林赛的回答是，我想发挥作用。

He's the President of the United States.

他是美国总统。

This goes back to the judgment.

这又回到了判决。

I like him, this, that, the other thing.

我喜欢他，这个，那个，其他。

He's the president.

他是总统。

If I want to get legislation passed, he, by the way, has taken over the Republican Party.

如果我想让立法通过，顺便说一句，他已经接管了共和党。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: If I want to get stuff done, I need to have him on my side.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：如果我想把事情做好，我需要他站在我这边。

And like many narcissists and egomaniacs, it is not a good way to get them on your side by saying nasty things about them.

就像许多自恋者和自大狂一样，通过说他们的坏话来让他们站在你一边并不是一个好方法。

So this is the pragmatics.

这就是语用学。

People forget that Bill Gates stole the code on which Microsoft has built.

人们忘记了比尔·盖茨窃取了微软构建的代码。

People forget that Jeffrey Epstein, after being convicted of sex offenses, was still having dinners with members of the royal family and members of the New York media elite.

人们忘记了杰弗里·爱泼斯坦在被判性犯罪后，仍在与王室成员和纽约媒体精英成员共进晚餐。

People forget that Martha Stewart, who served time in jail, has a brand that's never been more valuable.

人们忘记了在监狱服刑的玛莎·斯图尔特拥有一个从未如此有价值的品牌。

People forget all this stuff.

人们忘记了所有这些东西。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: I still remember sitting in the office of someone whose name I won't use, but I'll use enough that if somebody wanted to search it out, you could.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：我仍然记得坐在某人的办公室里，我不会使用他的名字，但我会使用足够多的名字，如果有人想搜索的话，你可以。

So I am sitting in this guy's office and he's, by the way, a Jewish man.

我坐在这个人的办公室里，顺便说一下，他是一个犹太人。

He's got pictures of him with the Pope, he's got pictures of him with Ronald Reagan.

他有他和教皇的合影，还有他和罗纳德·里根的合影。

He's got pictures with him, with all these people.

他有和他、和所有这些人的合影。

What is his secret?

他的秘密是什么？

He, by the way, took a company into bankruptcy.

顺便说一句，他让一家公司破产了。

People lost literally billions of dollars.

人们损失了数十亿美元。

He was fined.

他被罚款了。

He lost money, but he walked away with about $700 million.

他赔了钱，但带走了大约 7 亿美元。

It turns out, $700 million makes you a big deal.

事实证明，7 亿美元对你来说是一笔大买卖。

Lives at the biggest house in Los Angeles or one of the biggest houses in Los Angeles.

住在洛杉矶最大的房子或洛杉矶最大的房子之一。

I can't keep up with the construction of the big houses.

我跟不上大房子的建设。

People want to be close to money, power, and success, and they will overlook your flaws to be close to you.

人们想要靠近金钱、权力、成功，就会为了靠近你而忽略你的缺点。

Lenny Rachitsky: And again, you talk about this in the book.

Lenny Rachitsky：您在书中再次谈到了这一点。

You're not describing how the world should work.

你没有描述世界应该如何运作。

This is just how it is, and this is how you can be successful in the world that we live in.

事情就是这样，这就是你如何在我们生活的世界中取得成功。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: And by the way, this is how the world not only is, but how it was and how it will be.

杰弗里·普费弗：顺便说一句，世界不仅是这样，而且过去是这样，将来也是这样。

Because these ideas are not something that I sat down one day and made up or something.

因为这些想法不是我有一天坐下来想出来的。

These ideas, everything that I talk about, including this last one, has social science and logic behind it.

这些想法，我谈论的一切，包括最后一个，背后都有社会科学和逻辑。

So you can explain not only what is, but why it is.

因此，您不仅可以解释是什么，还可以解释为什么会这样。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, let's talk about Trump for a bit.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那么，我们来谈谈特朗普吧。

At the beginning of your book, you say that basically you were going to write a book about why Trump is so successful and what he's done so well.

在你的书的开头，你说基本上你要写一本关于特朗普为何如此成功以及他做得如此出色的书。

And your realization is no one's going to pay attention if here's how to be like Trump.

你意识到，如果这是如何像特朗普一样，没有人会关注。

And essentially, if you think about all these rules, it's clear he is very good at all of these things.

从本质上讲，如果你考虑所有这些规则，很明显他在所有这些事情上都非常擅长。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: That's correct.

杰弗里·普费弗：是的。

By the way, not because he read the book, but because he does it through trial and error or something.

顺便说一句，不是因为他读了这本书，而是因为他通过反复试验或其他什么方式做到了这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: So when people hear that, they're like, I don't want to be Trump.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：所以当人们听到这个消息时，他们会想，我不想成为特朗普。

I don't like how Trump is.

我不喜欢特朗普的样子。

I don't want to be seen that way.

我不想被人这样看。

Do you have any thoughts on just how to make people feel comfortable following some of these powers and building power, knowing that, oh wow, maybe he's the epitome of some of this stuff?

你对如何让人们感到舒服地追随其中一些力量并建立力量有什么想法，知道，哦哇，也许他是其中一些东西的缩影？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: I will tell you a story.

杰弗里·普费弗：我给你讲一个故事。

In 1993, a woman named Laura Esserman, who's a doctor, took my class.

1993 年，一位名叫劳拉·埃瑟曼 (Laura Esserman) 的女性医生选修了我的课程。

She claims publicly that this is the only class at Stanford for which she did all the reading.

她公开声称这是斯坦福大学唯一一门她完成所有阅读的课程。

By the way, while she was getting her MBA at Stanford, she was having her first child and practicing medicine full time.

顺便说一句，当她在斯坦福大学攻读 MBA 学位时，她正在生第一个孩子，并全职从事医学工作。

Laura Esserman said to me one day, "You have a case.

有一天，劳拉·埃瑟曼对我说：“你有一个案子。

You have cases on all these people doing evil things.

你有所有这些人做坏事的案例。

Why don't you ever write a case about somebody doing good things?" And of course, I wrote a case about her.

你为什么不写一个关于某人做好事的案例呢？”当然，我写了一个关于她的案例。

So she comes to the class.

于是她就来上课了。

Case was published in probably 2003, 2004.

案例发表时间大概是2003年、2004年。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: She comes to the class and the students are, what is the right word?

杰弗里·普费弗：她来到课堂上，学生们也来了，正确的词是什么？

Hard on her?

对她狠？

That would be a modest thing.

这将是一件谦虚的事情。

The students eviscerate her because she is incredibly smart, incredibly well-intentioned, but she will not network.

学生们对她进行了严厉批评，因为她非常聪明，非常善意，但她不会建立人际网络。

She says, "I don't have time for schmoozing." She will not do almost any of the stuff that we talk about today.

她说：“我没有时间闲聊。”她几乎不会做我们今天谈论的任何事情。

So she and her husband, Michael Endicott, two of my closest friends in the world, and I go out to lunch afterwards.

因此，她和她的丈夫迈克尔·恩迪科特（我在世界上最亲密的两个朋友）和我随后出去吃午饭。

And smoke is coming out of her ears and she is pissed off.

她的耳朵里冒出烟，她很生气。

And this is a very accomplished woman and a very smart woman.

这是一个非常有成就的女人，也是一个非常聪明的女人。

And she's pissed.

她很生气。

I said to her, "Laura, you have boundless energy and boundless intelligence.

我对她说：“劳拉，你有无限的精力和无限的智慧。

You're a force of nature.

你是一股自然的力量。

Let me discuss something from the past subject of physics.

让我讨论一些过去的物理主题。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: You are creating friction.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：你正在制造摩擦。

With enough force you can overcome the friction.

只要有足够的力，就可以克服摩擦力。

If you reduce the friction, just think how much more you could accomplish." And she looked at me and changed.

如果你减少摩擦，想想你能完成多少更多的事情。”她看着我，变了。

And I will tell you, and I've said this publicly, because I get to introduce her for all the awards she's won, and she's now won a ton of them.

我会告诉你，我已经公开说过这一点，因为我可以向她介绍她赢得的所有奖项，而她现在已经赢得了很多奖项。

Including Time Magazine 2016 list of a hundred most influential people in the world.

包括《时代》杂志2016年全球百位最具影响力人物排行榜。

And I say to people, and I say it with pride, that of all the things I've done in my life, the thing I'm most proud of and most proud of is creating Laura Esserman.

我对人们说，而且我自豪地说，在我一生中所做的所有事情中，我最自豪、最自豪的事情就是创造了 Laura Esserman。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is an awesome story and a really good way of thinking about this from a different angle.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的故事，也是从不同角度思考这个问题的好方法。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Yeah, no, and I said to Laura, I said, "You want to make profound changes in the drug development process.

杰弗里·普费弗：是的，不，我对劳拉说，“你想在药物开发过程中做出深刻的改变。

You want to make profound changes in whether or not we learn from the treatments that are being given to people.

你想要做出深刻的改变，决定我们是否从人们接受的治疗中学习。

You want to make profound changes in the connection between research and teaching, research and practice.

您希望对研究与教学、研究与实践之间的联系进行深刻的改变。

You want to do all these things.

你想做所有这些事情。

If you are going to accomplish any of these things, you need to cross the bridge." And she hasn't crossed the bridge completely and she and I joke about it.

如果你要完成任何这些事情，你就需要过桥。”她还没有完全跨过那座桥，我和她还拿这件事开玩笑。

But she crossed the bridge a lot and she has accomplished incredible things.

但她走过了很多坎，也完成了令人难以置信的事情。

She's won every cancer award that can be given.

她赢得了所有可以颁发的癌症奖项。

And by the way, she's won all these awards for the American Cancer Society, who she fought with.

顺便说一句，她为与她并肩作战的美国癌症协会赢得了所有这些奖项。

She's won these awards from the Susan Cohen Foundation, who she fought with.

她从与她并肩作战的苏珊·科恩基金会获得了这些奖项。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is an incredible example of the opening quote to your book that I have here.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：这是我这里引用的你的书的开场白的一个令人难以置信的例子。

"If you want power to be used for good, more good people need to have power."

“如果你想让权力用于公益，更多的好人需要拥有权力。”

Lenny Rachitsky: And I like the, it's like a quote attributed to me, is how you...

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这句话，就像我引用的一句话，你就是这样......

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Yeah.

杰弗里·普费弗：是的。

Well, I don't remember saying it, but somebody said, I said it.

嗯，我不记得说过，但有人说，我说过。

I'll take credit for it.

我会因此而获得荣誉。

I said to Laura, "You want to change medicine?

我对劳拉说：“你想换药吗？

Medicine is not going to change without the application of power and influence." If change was going to happen, it would've happened already.

如果不运用权力和影响力，医学就不会改变。”如果改变要发生，它早就发生了。

You have to take on entrenched interests.

你必须接受根深蒂固的利益。

She has a whole thing, which we need not go into because it's pretty technical, on screening.

她有一个完整的东西，我们不需要讨论，因为它在筛选方面非常技术性。

She said, everybody's getting a mammogram every year beyond a certain age, which is stupid for a variety of reasons.

她说，超过一定年龄后，每个人每年都会进行乳房X光检查，出于多种原因，这是愚蠢的。

You can read, she was on the PBS NewsHour about this.

你可以读到，她在 PBS NewsHour 上谈论了此事。

This is what got her in trouble with the radiologists.

这就是她给放射科医生带来麻烦的原因。

The radiologists, of course, are selling screening.

当然，放射科医生正在推销筛查。

She said, there's some people that need to be screened every month, and there's some people that need to be screened never because of their genetics.

她说，有些人每个月都需要进行筛查，而有些人则因为基因原因而无需进行筛查。

She wants custom tailored screening or precision screening.

她想要定制筛选或精密筛选。

Anyway, she fights everybody.

无论如何，她与所有人战斗。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Richard Blum, Dianne Feinstein's husband, both Dianne and Richard Blum are now deceased, was at a thing where she launched the Athena Project.

杰弗里·普费弗（Jeffrey Pfeffer）：理查德·布鲁姆（Richard Blum）是黛安·范斯坦（Dianne Feinstein）的丈夫，黛安·范斯坦（Dianne Feinstein）和理查德·布鲁姆（Richard Blum）现已去世，当时她发起了雅典娜计划。

The Athena Project, she's now, with her collaborators, collecting data on the diagnosis and treatment and outcome for 150,000 patients in the University of California Healthcare System.

在雅典娜项目中，她现在与合作者一起收集加州大学医疗系统 150,000 名患者的诊断、治疗和结果数据。

So I'm supposed to give some opening talk to provide entertainment.

所以我应该做一些开场演讲来提供娱乐。

And Dick Blum is there.

迪克·布鲁姆也在那里。

Dick Blum, of course is wealthy.

迪克·布鲁姆当然很有钱。

He's Dianne Feinstein's husband.

他是黛安·范斯坦的丈夫。

I said to him, "Dick, how did Laura get you here?" And I still remember, I think this is a quote in one of the books I wrote.

我对他说：“迪克，劳拉怎么把你带到这里来的？”我还记得，我认为这是我写的一本书中的一句话。

He said to me, he said, "Look." He said, "I've learned that at the end of the day when Laura asks you to do something, you may say no, but at the end of the day, you're going to do it anyway.

他对我说，他说，“看。”他说：“我了解到，当劳拉要求你做某事时，你可能会拒绝，但最终你还是会去做。

Save yourself the aggravation."

省得你自己受委屈了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, I feel like you're just endlessly full of good stories that we could just keep going on and on.

Lenny Rachitsky：天啊，我觉得你充满了无穷无尽的好故事，我们可以继续讲下去。

Let me try to summarize the rules of power real quick and see if anything else emerges.

让我尝试快速总结一下权力规则，看看是否还会出现其他内容。

And then have just a couple more questions.

还有几个问题。

So the Seven Rules of Power, get out of your own way, break the rules, show up in a powerful fashion, create a powerful brand, network relentlessly, use your power, and understand that once you've acquired power, that what you did to get there will be forgiven, forgotten, or both.

因此，权力的七大规则，走出自己的道路，打破规则，以强大的方式出现，创建一个强大的品牌，不懈地建立网络，利用你的权力，并明白，一旦你获得了权力，你为获得权力所做的一切都会被原谅，被遗忘，或者两者兼而有之。

Let me ask you a question, maybe half in jest.

让我问你一个问题，也许是半开玩笑的。

You teach people how to acquire power.

你教人们如何获得权力。

Why aren't you the most powerful man in the world?

为什么你不是世界上最有权势的人？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Ah, that's a very good question.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：啊，这是一个非常好的问题。

To which I have a very good answer.

对此我有一个很好的答案。

I have a colleague who's unfortunately now deceased, by the name of James G.

我有一位同事，他的名字叫 James G.，不幸的是，他现在已经去世了。

March, who was a very, very distinguished scholar.

马奇是一位非常非常杰出的学者。

And James March said to me many, many years ago, something which is completely true.

很多很多年前，詹姆斯·马奇对我说过一些完全正确的话。

You can have power or you can have autonomy, but you cannot have both.

你可以拥有权力，也可以拥有自主权，但你不能两者兼得。

And I have chosen to live a life of freedom, autonomy.

我选择过自由、自主的生活。

I could tell you stories that would bring tears to your eyes.

我可以给你讲一些让你热泪盈眶的故事。

I'll tell you one.

我告诉你一个。

We had a dean of the Business School whose wife was dying of cancer, and she was projected to die in the fall.

我们有一位商学院院长，他的妻子死于癌症，预计她将在秋天去世。

So the Business School goes to him and says, we'll give you the fall off to be with your wife.

于是商学院找到他说，我们会给你一些折扣，让你和你的妻子在一起。

She lives until June.

她活到六月。

It's now winter.

现在是冬天。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: You have responsibilities as the Dean of the Business School.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：作为商学院院长，您有责任。

You have to meet with alumni.

你必须与校友会面。

You have to go around and raise money.

你必须到处去筹集资金。

You have to show up at events, university events.

你必须出现在活动、大学活动中。

I do not necessarily think that is how he wanted to spend the winter and spring quarters, but that's what you have to do.

我不一定认为这就是他想要度过冬季和春季学期的方式，但这就是你必须要做的。

When I wanted Jack Valenti to come to my class, I did not call Jack Valenti.

当我想让杰克·瓦伦蒂来上课时，我没有打电话给杰克·瓦伦蒂。

I called Judy Dickey.

我给朱迪·迪基打了电话。

Judy Dickey was his assistant.

朱迪·迪基是他的助手。

Judy Dickey controlled his schedule.

朱迪·迪基控制着他的日程安排。

I meet Jack on such and such a day.

我在某天遇见了杰克。

He can't make it on that day.

那天他无法赴约。

Fine.

美好的。

I can adjust the schedule.

我可以调整日程。

Can he make it on this day?

他能赶到这一天吗？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: When I wanted my friend Gary Loveman, who ran Harrah's and Caesars and then was the number two executive at Aetna, I want him to come to my class.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：当我邀请我的朋友加里·洛夫曼（Gary Loveman）来听我的课时，他经营着 Harrah's 和 Caesars，后来成为 Aetna 的二把手。

I called Reggie Kirk.

我给雷吉·柯克打了电话。

I didn't call Gary Loveman.

我没有给加里·洛夫曼打电话。

And that's all you need to know.

这就是您需要知道的全部。

I do not have an assistant who controls my schedule.

我没有一个助理来控制我的日程安排。

I control my schedule.

我控制我的日程安排。

You will not find my Outlook calendar on any website, on any computer.

您不会在任何网站、任何计算机上找到我的 Outlook 日历。

I want autonomy.

我想要自主权。

If I said to you, "Lenny, I will give you $1 billion, or for that matter, $10 billion if you can buy-"

如果我对你说，“莱尼，我会给你 10 亿美元，或者就此而言，100 亿美元，如果你能买——”

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Wait, if you can have last week again.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：等等，如果你能重温上周的话。

You can't.

你不能。

You can't.

你不能。

Time goes in only one direction.

时间只朝一个方向流逝。

I want control of my time.

我想控制我的时间。

It is much more important to me, being a Dean or an Associate Dean, a job that I was asked to do.

对我来说更重要的是，担任院长或副院长，这是我被要求做的工作。

I took one academic administrative job.

我接受了一份学术行政工作。

I'm actually memorialized, believe it or not, in the Stanford Record, as having led, and this is according to my expenses, the Nobel Prize winner who was Dean at the time, that I led the biggest and most successful transformation in the history of higher education.

不管你信不信，《斯坦福记录》实际上记录了我领导了高等教育史上最大、最成功的变革，这是根据我这位诺贝尔奖获得者、当时的院长的费用计算的。

I did it.

我做到了。

I did it once.

我做过一次。

I didn't like it.

我不喜欢它。

Life is too short.

生命太短暂了。

I want to do what I like.

我想做我喜欢的事。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really profound point that I think people don't think about, is there's always this drive to acquire power.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我认为这是一个非常深刻的观点，人们没有想到，总是有这种获取权力的动力。

And your point is that there's a big downside, which is a lack of autonomy.

你的观点是，它有一个很大的缺点，那就是缺乏自主权。

Yeah.

是的。

You think about the, as I was trying to get Satya Nadella on the podcast, and I talked to his comms people, and they're like, every hour for the next three months is booked already.

你想一下，当我试图让萨蒂亚·纳德拉加入播客时，我和他的通讯人员交谈过，他们说，接下来三个月的每个小时都已经被预订了。

We know what he's doing.

我们知道他在做什么。

He's extremely booked.

他的订满了。

And you think about the president, obviously at Elon.

你会想到总统，显然是埃隆总统。

I totally get what you're saying.

我完全明白你所说的。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: It is true, and I don't want to do that.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：确实如此，但我不想那样做。

And by the way, power also comes with enormous visibility.

顺便说一句，权力也伴随着巨大的可见性。

Donald Trump has done, for 40 years, what he's now being accused of doing, the tax stuff, all this stuff.

40 年来，唐纳德·特朗普一直在做他现在被指控做的事情，税收问题，所有这些事情。

He's been a grifter all his life.

他这辈子都是个骗子。

But when you become President, people are going to look at things that in the past they would not have looked at.

但当你成为总统时，人们将会看到他们过去不会关注的事情。

You become president of a university, you're going to have scrutiny as the President of Harvard Law and the President of Stanford Law, when they both had to resign, in one case because of plagiarism, in another case because of research misconduct.

你成为一所大学的校长，你将作为哈佛法学院院长和斯坦福大学法学院院长受到审查，他们都不得不辞职，在一个例子中是因为剽窃，在另一个例子中是因为研究不当行为。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Power comes.

杰弗里·普费弗：权力来了。

You're going to be put under a microscope.

你将被置于显微镜下。

People are going to look at what car you drive.

人们会看你开什么车。

They're going to look at who you go out with.

他们会看你和谁出去。

They're going to look at how you spend your time.

他们会看看你如何度过你的时间。

They're going to look at how you associate with, you'll have no privacy.

他们会看看你如何交往，你将没有隐私。

You'll have very little control over your life.

你对自己的生活几乎没有控制权。

Everybody will feel completely free to dissect you in public, in private, whatever.

每个人都会完全自由地在公开场合、私下场合或任何场合剖析你。

And you'll face the trust dilemma.

你将面临信任困境。

When you are rich and powerful the question will be, are people praising you, are people associating with you because of you or because of the position you hold?

当你有钱有势时，问题就会是，人们赞扬你，人们与你交往是因为你还是因为你所担任的职位？

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Do you spend any time, just to follow this thread in your class, convincing people stop being so obsessed with power, stop being so obsessed with becoming the top of everything?

你是否花时间在课堂上遵循这条线索，说服人们不要那么痴迷于权力，不要那么痴迷于成为一切的顶端？

Is that a part of the class?

这是课程的一部分吗？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: No. I teach them, they see we have a class on the price of power.

杰弗里·普费弗：不。我教他们，他们看到我们有一个关于电力价格的课程。

I bring out Rudy Crew.

我带出了鲁迪·克鲁。

Rudy Crew was the New York School's Chancellor under Rudy Giuliani.

鲁迪·克鲁 (Rudy Crew) 是鲁迪·朱利安尼 (Rudy Giuliani) 领导下的纽约学校校长。

By the way, he tells many interesting stories about Rudy Giuliani, who did not just become the joke that he is overnight.

顺便说一句，他讲述了许多关于鲁迪·朱利安尼的有趣故事，他并不是一夜之间就成为了笑话。

He's worked hard to become that.

他经过努力才成为这样的人。

But in any event, he tells.

但无论如何，他说。

And one year, one year, because his daughter at that time was living in the Bay Area, when I asked him about the effect of the positions he held, Head of Miami Dade County Schools, Head of New York City schools.

一年，一年，因为他的女儿当时住在湾区，当我问他担任迈阿密戴德县学校校长、纽约市学校校长等职位的影响时。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Had Hillary ever won, he would've been Secretary of Education.

杰弗里·普费弗：如果希拉里获胜，他就会成为教育部长。

Literally.

字面上地。

There's Lauren in the room.

房间里有劳伦。

And he said to the class, Jeffrey asked me the question, "Why don't we let Lauren answer it?" By the time she was finished, there was not a dry eye in the room.

他对全班同学说，杰弗里问我这个问题，“我们为什么不让劳伦回答呢？”当她说完的时候，房间里已经没有人干眼了。

What is it like to be the child?

当孩子是什么感觉？

What is it like to be the significant other of these people?

成为这些人中的重要他人是什么感觉？

And you know the answer to that because you can see the suicides, the divorce rates.

你知道答案，因为你可以看到自杀率和离婚率。

There is a price that not only you pay, but a price that your family pays.

不仅你要付出代价，你的家人也要付出代价。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that's a really good balance to the entire conversation.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这对整个对话来说是一个非常好的平衡。

Maybe just as a last question, what if we give the audience a homework assignment to work on these power rules?

也许就像最后一个问题，如果我们给观众布置一份家庭作业来研究这些权力规则会怎么样？

What's something that you'd recommend someone try to do?

您会推荐某人尝试做哪些事情？

I know it's probably dependent on what they're good at, not good at.

我知道这可能取决于他们擅长什么，不擅长什么。

What's something that they could do to start moving towards one of these rules?

他们可以做些什么来开始朝着这些规则之一迈进？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: So what I would say, and it comes from something that you talked about in our conversation at several times, which is this is uncomfortable.

杰弗里·普费弗：所以我想说的是，这来自你在我们谈话中多次谈到的事情，那就是这令人不舒服。

Okay.

好的。

So if I want you to do something uncomfortable, I could say, "Lenny, go do this uncomfortable thing on your own." Or I can say, "Lenny, I want you to do this with help, with social support." And so the first thing I would say to someone is, if you think this is uncomfortable, or if you think you're not skilled at this, get coaching.

因此，如果我想让你做一些不舒服的事情，我可以说，“莱尼，你自己去做这件不舒服的事情。”或者我可以说，“莱尼，我希望你在社会支持的帮助下做到这一点。”因此，我要对某人说的第一件事是，如果您认为这不舒服，或者您认为自己不擅长于此，请接受指导。

Get a coach.

找个教练吧

Jeffrey Pfeffer: I send out regularly the list of the coaches who work with my online and on-campus classes.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：我定期发送与我的在线和校园课程合作的教练名单。

Happy to do it.

很高兴做这件事。

And they're happy to have the business.

他们很高兴拥有这项业务。

Get a coach.

找个教练吧

Get a personal board of directors like they talk about in the Wall Street Journal.

建立一个像《华尔街日报》上所说的那样的个人董事会。

In other words, get people who will give you advice, give you social support, and hold you accountable.

换句话说，找那些能给你建议、给你社会支持、并让你承担责任的人。

That's the very first thing I would tell people to do.

这是我告诉人们要做的第一件事。

It's hard to do anything on your own.

凭一己之力很难做任何事。

If I said to you, "Lenny, I want you to start an extraordinarily successful podcast and I want you to do it without any help." You would not be where you are today.

如果我对你说：“莱尼，我希望你开始一个非常成功的播客，并且我希望你在没有任何帮助的情况下做到这一点。”你不会是今天的样子。

So that simple principle, get help.

原理很简单，寻求帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like a part of rule number one.

Lenny Rachitsky：这感觉像是第一条规则的一部分。

Get out of your own way.

别走自己的路。

Ask for help.

求人。

Jeffrey, I was nervous for this podcast because I thought this was going to be super uncomfortable stuff.

杰弗里，我对这个播客感到紧张，因为我认为这会是非常不舒服的事情。

It turns out all of this makes so much sense, and there's a really nice way of framing all of these rules, and there's so much reason to actually invest in these skills.

事实证明，所有这些都非常有意义，并且有一种非常好的方式来构建所有这些规则，并且有很多理由实际投资于这些技能。

So I really appreciate you putting in the time being here, sharing all these stories and insights.

所以我真的很感谢你抽出时间来这里分享所有这些故事和见解。

Is there anything else you want to share as a kind of a final note or something to leave listeners with before we wrap up?

在我们结束之前，您还有什么想分享的作为最后的说明或留给听众的吗？

We did it.

我们做到了。

We covered everything?

我们涵盖了一切？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: No, I'm happy.

杰弗里·普费弗：不，我很高兴。

I'm happy you're a very good interviewer, which is why your podcast is so successful.

我很高兴您是一位非常好的采访者，这就是您的播客如此成功的原因。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: I'm happy to spend the time with you, and I hope whoever listens to this will, I hope, first of all, there'll be a lot of listeners, but I also hope that they will find it useful.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：我很高兴与您共度时光，我希望无论谁听这个，首先，我希望会有很多听众，但我也希望他们会发现它有用。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know they will.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我知道他们会的。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they, or find your book, I guess, if they want to learn more?

如果人们想了解更多信息，或者我想，如果他们想了解更多信息，他们可以在哪里找到您？

And then how can listeners be useful to you?

那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Jeffrey Pfeffer: So you can find my book anywhere where books are sold.

杰弗里·普费弗：所以你可以在任何卖书的地方找到我的书。

Don't look at a physical bookstore because nobody carries it, including actually Stanford bookstore, where they run out of it if people...

不要看实体书店，因为没有人卖它，包括斯坦福大学书店，如果人们...

And you can find it on Amazon.

你可以在亚马逊上找到它。

Seven Rules of Power.

七项权力规则。

So that's how you can find the book.

这就是您找到这本书的方式。

By the way, at the end of the book I talk about, I have a personal website, jeffreypfeffer.com.

顺便说一句，在我谈到的书的最后，我有一个个人网站，jeffreypfeffer.com。

If you go to that website, you can find my course outline.

如果您访问该网站，您可以找到我的课程大纲。

So you can take the course on your own if you want, or get somebody or take it in a group of people.

因此，如果您愿意，您可以自己学习该课程，也可以找人或与一群人一起学习。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: You can find research, you can find articles, you can find columns.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：你可以找到研究，你可以找到文章，你可以找到专栏。

You can follow me on LinkedIn or I don't do Twitter anymore, but you can follow me on LinkedIn.

你可以在 LinkedIn 上关注我，或者我不再使用 Twitter，但你可以在 LinkedIn 上关注我。

So there are a lot of resources available for this.

因此，有很多可用的资源。

A company was once thinking of hiring me to give a talk in their organization, and the woman who wound up hiring me said, "When I was discussing you and arguing that we should hire you for this presentation, one of the people in the committee said, is he a good presenter?" And her answer, I love this.

一家公司曾经考虑雇用我在他们的组织中发表演讲，最终雇用我的女士说：“当我讨论你并争论我们应该雇用你进行这次演讲时，委员会中的一个人说，他是一个好的演讲者吗？”她的回答是，我喜欢这个。

I remember this.

我记得这个。

Her answer was, "He's a fabulous educator." My job is to educate.

她的回答是：“他是一位出色的教育家。”我的工作是教育。

That is why I have done what I have done for now more than 50 years.

这就是我50多年来所做的事情的原因。

Lenny Rachitsky: Holy moly.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天啊。

I didn't even realize that.

我什至没有意识到这一点。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: For more than 50 years, I have been in the business of education.

Jeffrey Pfeffer：50 多年来，我一直从事教育事业。

Not just about power, but about many other things as well.

不仅仅是权力，还有很多其他的事情。

But I'm in the education business, so I'm happy to provide people with the resources, with the readings.

但我从事教育行业，所以我很乐意为人们提供资源和读物。

The Seven Rules of Power is well footnoted.

权力的七项规则有很好的脚注。

It talks at the end about we could reach out for the coaches.

最后谈到我们可以联系教练。

You can go to the website and get the book.

您可以访问该网站并获取该书。

But I think consistent with what you and I have talked about, if all you do is read, you're not going to make very much progress.

但我认为，与你和我所说的一致，如果你所做的只是阅读，你不会取得很大的进步。

You have to do it.

你必须这么做。

You cannot learn tennis by reading about tennis, or by watching a movie about Serena or Venus Williams.

你不能通过阅读有关网球的文章或观看有关塞雷娜或维纳斯·威廉姆斯的电影来学习网球。

You have to actually get out on the court and do it.

你必须真正走出球场并做到这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Which is a good plug for your other book, the Knowing-Doing Gap, which actually helps you with the skill, which you can also find all your finer retailers.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是你的另一本书《知行差距》的一个很好的插件，它实际上帮助你掌握了技能，你也可以找到所有更好的零售商。

Jeffrey Pfeffer, thank you so much for being here.

杰弗里·普费弗，非常感谢您来到这里。

Jeffrey Pfeffer: Thank you for having me on your show.

杰弗里·普费弗：谢谢你邀请我参加你的节目。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at LennysPodcast.com.

您可以在 LennysPodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。