Building a meaningful career | Jason Shah (Airbnb, Amazon, Microsoft, Alchemy)

Jason Shah: Pushback is, I couldn't imagine a word more viscerally that makes you feel like you're sort of physically going against what somebody else wants, and it gears people into a mindset of then, well, how should I push back.

Jason Shah：“推回”是，我无法想象有哪个词比这个词更能让你发自内心地感觉自己在身体上违背了别人想要的东西，它让人们陷入这样一种心态：好吧，我应该如何推回。

It starts from a place of I need to disagree, I need to say no. It's a very negative mindset, purely based on the word that has come to label a behavior that alternatively could be about how do I shift the direction on something, or how do I help the business actually succeed when I disagree with somebody about something, and that's a very different mindset.

它从我需要不同意、我需要说不的地方开始。这是一种非常消极的心态，纯粹基于这个词来标记一种行为，或者可以是关于我如何改变某事的方向，或者当我在某件事上与某人意见不合时我如何帮助企业真正取得成功，这是一种非常不同的心态。

And so, the two things that I've seen be most successful would be, I think number one is actually understanding what a goal is or what somebody's kind of issue is with something, and then actually aligning those things in some way.

因此，我认为最成功的两件事是，我认为第一件事实际上是理解目标是什么，或者某人对某件事的问题是什么，然后以某种方式实际调整这些事情。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny, and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and scaling today's most successful companies.

我采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们建立和扩展当今最成功公司的来之不易的经验。

Today my guest is Jason Shah.

今天我的嘉宾是贾森·沙阿。

I was lucky to work with Jason while I was at Airbnb, and when I started working on this podcast, I knew that I wanted to have Jason on.

我很幸运能在 Airbnb 期间与 Jason 一起工作，当我开始制作这个播客时，我知道我想让 Jason 参与其中。

He was actually my very first guest on this podcast when I was pre-recording some episodes, but as you'll hear in our chat, we decided to take another crack at it for reasons you'll soon understand.

当我预录制一些剧集时，他实际上是我在这个播客上的第一位嘉宾，但正如你在我们的聊天中听到的那样，我们决定再次尝试它，原因你很快就会明白。

Lenny: In this episode, we cover what it's like to be a PM in Web3 and how that's changed as crypto winter has returned, how to lead a team through ups and downs, which leaders in Web3 know all too well, including how to keep morale up and people focused when so much is changing around you.

Lenny：在这一集中，我们将介绍在 Web3 中担任 PM 的感受，以及随着加密货币冬天的到来而发生的变化，如何领导团队度过起起落落，这些 Web3 的领导者都非常了解，包括当周围发生如此多的变化时如何保持士气并让人们保持专注。

We also get into a ton of killer advice on leadership, hiring, pushing back on your CEO, working backwards, career advancement, and a lot more juicy stuff.

我们还获得了大量关于领导力、招聘、反驳首席执行官、逆向工作、职业发展以及更多有趣内容的杀手级建议。

Jason is a gem and I am really excited to share this episode with you.

杰森是一颗宝石，我很高兴与您分享这一集。

With that, I bring you Jason Shah.

接下来，我为您带来杰森·沙阿。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

莱尼：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。

Coda's an all-in-one doc that combines the best documents, spreadsheets, and apps in one place.

Coda 是一款一体化文档，将最佳文档、电子表格和应用程序整合到一个地方。

I actually use Coda every single day.

事实上我每天都使用 Coda。

It's my home base for organizing my newsletter writing.

这是我组织时事通讯写作的大本营。

It's where I plan my content calendar, capture my research, and write the first drafts of each and every post.

我在这里规划我的内容日历、记录我的研究并撰写每篇文章的初稿。

It's also where I curate my private knowledge repository for paid newsletter subscribers, and it's also how I manage the workflow for this very podcast.

这也是我为付费时事通讯订阅者策划私人知识库的地方，也是我管理这个播客工作流程的方式。

Over the years, I've seen Coda evolve from being a tool that makes teams more productive.

多年来，我见证了 Coda 从一个提高团队工作效率的工具演变而来。

It's one that also helps bring the best practices across the tech industry to life, with an incredibly rich collection of templates and guides in Coda Doc Gallery, including resources for many guests on this podcast, including Shreyas, Gokul, and Shishir, the CEO of Coda.

它还有助于将整个科技行业的最佳实践变为现实，在 Coda Doc Gallery 中提供了极其丰富的模板和指南，包括为该播客的许多嘉宾提供的资源，包括 Shreyas、Gokul 和 Coda 首席执行官 Shishir。

Some of the best teams out there like Pinterest, Spotify, Square, and Uber use Coda to run effectively and have published their templates for anyone to use.

Pinterest、Spotify、Square 和 Uber 等一些最好的团队使用 Coda 来有效运行，并发布了他们的模板供任何人使用。

Lenny: If you're ping-ponging between lots of documents and spreadsheets, make your life better and start using Coda.

Lenny：如果您在大量文档和电子表格之间来回切换，那么请开始使用 Coda，让您的生活变得更美好。

You can take advantage of a special limited time offer just for startups.

您可以利用专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Head over to coda.io/lenny to sign up and get $1,000 credit on your first statement.

前往 coda.io/lenny 进行注册，并在您的第一份账单上获得 1,000 美元的积分。

That's C-O-D-A.io/lenny to sign up and get $1,000 in credit on your account.

注册后即可在 C-O-D-A.io/lenny 上获得 1,000 美元的积分。

I'm excited to chat with my friend John Cutler from podcast sponsor, Amplitude.

我很高兴能与来自播客赞助商 Amplitude 的朋友 John Cutler 聊天。

Hey, John.

嘿，约翰。

John Cutler: Hey, Lenny.

约翰·卡特勒：嘿，莱尼。

Excited to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: John, give us a behind the scenes at Amplitude.

莱尼：约翰，请给我们介绍一下 Amplitude 的幕后花絮。

When most people think of Amplitude, they think of product analytics, but now you're getting into experimentation and even just launched a CDP.

当大多数人想到 Amplitude 时，他们会想到产品分析，但现在您正在进入实验，甚至刚刚推出了 CDP。

What's the thought process there?

那里的思维过程是怎样的？

John Cutler: Well, we've always thought of Amplitude as being about supporting the full product loop.

John Cutler：嗯，我们一直认为 Amplitude 是为了支持整个产品循环。

Think collect data, inform bets, ship experiments and learn.

思考收集数据、告知投注、进行实验并学习。

That's the heart of growth to us.

这就是我们成长的核心。

So, the big aha was seeing how many customers were using Amplitude to analyze experiments, use segments for outreach, and send data to other destinations.

因此，最大的惊喜是看到有多少客户使用 Amplitude 来分析实验、使用分段进行推广以及将数据发送到其他目的地。

Experiment in CDP came out of listening to and observing our customers.

CDP 的实验源于倾听和观察客户的意见。

Lenny: And supporting growth and learning has always been Amplitude's core focus, right?

Lenny：支持成长和学习一直是 Amplitude 的核心重点，对吧？

John Cutler: Yeah.

约翰·卡特勒：是的。

So, Amplitude tries to meet customers where they are.

因此，Amplitude 试图满足客户的需求。

We just launched starter templates and have a great scholarship program for startups.

我们刚刚推出了入门模板，并为初创公司提供了很棒的奖学金计划。

There's never been a more important time for growth.

对于成长来说，从未有过如此重要的时刻。

Lenny: Absolutely agree.

莱尼：绝对同意。

Thanks for joining us, John, and head to amplitude.com to get started.

约翰，感谢您加入我们，请前往振幅.com 开始。

Jason, welcome to the podcast.

杰森，欢迎来到播客。

Jason Shah: Thanks so much, Lenny.

杰森·沙阿：非常感谢，莱尼。

Really excited to chat with you today.

今天能和你聊天真的很兴奋。

Lenny: Something listeners don't know that we know is that we actually recorded an episode between you and I back in April.

莱尼：听众不知道我们知道的是，我们实际上在四月份录制了你和我之间的一集。

It was actually my very first episode that I ever did for this podcast, and it was before I launched.

这实际上是我为这个播客制作的第一集，而且是在我推出之前。

It was kind of like a pre-launch launch episode, and interestingly enough, by the time the podcast launched and it was going to go out, well, let me also add that we chatted mostly about Web3, forgot that detail.

这有点像发布前的一集，有趣的是，当播客发布时，它即将发布，好吧，让我补充一下，我们主要谈论的是 Web3，忘记了这个细节。

So, most of our chat was about Web3 in the state of Web3 and PMing in Web3, and by the time the podcast's supposed to come out, Web3, things have changed in the world of Web3, and so, it kind of felt a little stale and out of touch, and so, we decided let's do it again.

所以，我们的大部分聊天都是关于 Web3 状态下的 Web3 和 Web3 中的 PM，当播客应该出来时，Web3，Web3 世界中的事情已经发生了变化，所以，它感觉有点陈旧和脱节，所以，我们决定再做一次。

And so, how do you feel about that?

那么，您对此有何看法？

Jason Shah: I appreciate that, Lenny.

杰森·沙阿：我很感激，莱尼。

I'm honored that you would have me back.

我很荣幸你能让我回来。

I'm going to count it as the personal record of two times on Lenny's Podcast, even if the world only knows it as one.

我将把它算作莱尼播客上两次的个人记录，即使全世界只知道这是一次。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

Good one.

好一个。

Okay, first ever guest and first two-time return guest.

好吧，第一位客人，也是第一位两次回访的客人。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Okay.

好的。

To set a little context for folks on your background, your career, could you just give us a 60-second overview of your background and your career and how you got to what you're doing today?

为了向人们介绍一下您的背景、您的职业生涯，您能否用 60 秒的时间向我们介绍一下您的背景和职业生涯，以及您是如何取得今天的成就的？

Jason Shah: Yeah, for sure.

杰森·沙阿：是的，当然。

Thanks again for having me, Lenny.

再次感谢你邀请我，莱尼。

So, my career has all been about solving important problems in a unique way.

因此，我的职业生涯就是以独特的方式解决重要问题。

I think the latter part is the youngest child in me who has to be special and do things different than other people, and the former is about making sure that my time is spent well since we're all limited there.

我认为后一部分是我最小的孩子，他必须是特别的，做与其他人不同的事情，而前者是为了确保我的时间得到充分利用，因为我们都受到限制。

So, I actually got started in a sense in tech when I was 15.

所以，从某种意义上说，我 15 岁时就开始涉足科技领域。

I started my first company, much like a lot of teenagers, it was around test prep and getting people ready for college, and it was my first exposure to using technology at scale to help people, and I just found it addictive ever since.

我创办了我的第一家公司，就像很多青少年一样，它是围绕考试准备和帮助人们为大学做好准备的，这是我第一次接触大规模使用技术来帮助人们，从那时起我就发现它让人上瘾。

Jason Shah: And so, I ran that company for seven years through school, was lucky to do a small acquisition to a partner of ours that we had worked with throughout, and then I would just hooked, and I moved to San Francisco without a job.

Jason Shah：所以，我在学校期间经营了这家公司七年，很幸运地对我们一直合作的合作伙伴进行了一次小额收购，然后我就迷上了，然后我搬到了旧金山，没有工作。

I was really arrogant.

我真的很傲慢。

I said, "I'll never work for anybody else," and then lo and behold, Yammer comes along, I'm super excited about it, I had been working on a product actually in the same space.

我说，“我永远不会为其他任何人工作”，然后你瞧，Yammer 出现了，我对此感到非常兴奋，我实际上一直在同一领域开发一款产品。

And so, that was actually my first formal product management role, and I stayed at Yammer, I stayed through the Microsoft acquisition back in 2012.

所以，这实际上是我的第一个正式产品管理角色，我留在了 Yammer，并在 2012 年微软收购期间留下来。

Low and behold, I was at the world's largest productivity company at Microsoft, and most people there in my opinion were wildly unproductive and I wasn't shipping a lot.

瞧，我在世界上最大的生产力公司微软工作，在我看来，那里的大多数人生产力极低，而且我的出货量也不多。

I got the itch again, so started another company called do.com and ran that for about four years, and then eventually, we found a better fit with Amazon.

我又心痒痒了，所以创办了另一家名为 do.com 的公司，并运营了大约四年，最终，我们找到了更适合亚马逊的公司。

They were growing their AWS offering, SAS products.

他们正在发展他们的 AWS 产品和 SAS 产品。

So, we partnered with them to kind of do a small acqui-hire and help build the team out and the product there for a little over a year.

因此，我们与他们合作进行了一次小型收购，并帮助建立团队和产品，为期一年多一点。

Jason Shah: And then again, to be honest, I got bored and excited about what Airbnb was doing and the mission around belonging.

Jason Shah：说实话，我对 Airbnb 正在做的事情以及围绕归属感的使命感到无聊和兴奋。

That's why I was lucky to meet you and so many other really wonderful product leaders and just human beings in general at their core, and then to keep things brief for now, I got to work on a lot of really exciting products and businesses there, but eventually got the itch for Web3 after being a kind of observer from afar, investor, and I wanted to be a builder in Web3 specifically, and to me, it's a new vision of a better version of the internet.

这就是为什么我很幸运能够见到你和其他许多非常出色的产品领导者以及核心的普通人，然后为了让事情简单起见，我在那里从事了很多非常令人兴奋的产品和业务，但最终在成为远方的观察者、投资者之后对 Web3 产生了渴望，我特别想成为 Web3 的构建者，对我来说，这是更好版本的互联网的新愿景。

I'm really excited about that.

我对此感到非常兴奋。

So, I've been with Alchemy which is a blockchain infrastructure company for the last year, and really excited about all the opportunities.

所以，去年我一直在区块链基础设施公司 Alchemy 工作，对所有的机会感到非常兴奋。

I've gotten to work on products that have been part of most people's everyday lives, and I'm hopeful that we'll get to do that with Web3 and Alchemy as well.

我已经开始研究已经成为大多数人日常生活一部分的产品，我希望我们也能通过 Web3 和 Alchemy 来做到这一点。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I just realized as you're chatting there, do.com, I'm pretty sure I used that back in the day.

我刚刚意识到，当你在那里聊天时，do.com，我很确定我当时就用过它。

I think I just realized that.

我想我刚刚意识到这一点。

Jason Shah: I hope so.

杰森·沙阿：我希望如此。

That would be a new, I'll add that to my second podcast achievement is if I got Lenny to use a product that I worked on, especially a startup.

这将是一个新的，我将在我的第二个播客成就中添加一点，那就是如果我让莱尼使用我开发的产品，尤其是初创公司。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

Cool.

凉爽的。

Okay, so we're going to go a little bit backwards through your career and start with Web3.

好的，我们将稍微回顾一下您的职业生涯，并从 Web3 开始。

We're not going to spend most of the time on Web3, but just thought it'd be good to chat about some of these things, partly because you guest authored the sixth most popular post, online newsletter of all time, currently at number six, and it was about how to be a PM in Web3.

我们不会把大部分时间花在 Web3 上，但只是觉得讨论其中的一些事情会很好，部分原因是您客座撰写了第六个最受欢迎的帖子，这是有史以来的在线时事通讯，目前排名第六，它是关于如何成为 Web3 中的 PM。

Basically it's called The Product Manager's Guide to Web3.

基本上它被称为《Web3 产品经理指南》。

And so, a few questions there I wanted to touch on.

因此，我想谈几个问题。

One is just like, how would you describe the current state of Web3?

一个问题是，您如何描述 Web3 的当前状态？

We're recording this at the end of July, and so, we'll see when this comes out.

我们将在七月底录制此内容，因此，我们将看看何时发布。

But I'm just curious from someone working within it, kind of going through the boom and the busts, not the bust, the winter that we're kind of in a little bit right now.

但我只是对在其中工作的人感到好奇，他们经历了繁荣和萧条，而不是萧条，我们现在正处于冬天。

Yeah, how do you feel about it right now?

是的，你现在感觉如何？

Jason Shah: Yeah, for sure.

杰森·沙阿：是的，当然。

So, as much as I'm a techno optimist, I'm also realist, and with that being said, I genuinely believe Web3 is in the strongest position that it's ever been in.

因此，尽管我是一个技术乐观主义者，但我也是一个现实主义者，话虽这么说，我真诚地相信 Web3 处于有史以来最强大的位置。

I think it's important to remember that the term Web3 has barely existed in kind of popular lexicon for barely a year.

我认为重要的是要记住，Web3 一词在流行词典中出现还不到一年。

We've definitely had crypto for more than a decade now as technology, arguably as a financial instrument of some sort, but specifically the number of companies that I'm seeing be formed, the number of products that are starting to actually achieve some form of early product market fit, some products that are starting to scale.

我们确实已经拥有加密技术十多年了，可以说是作为某种金融工具，但具体来说，我看到成立的公司数量，开始真正实现某种形式的早期产品市场契合的产品数量，一些产品开始规模化。

There's definitely been obviously a huge drop in price.

价格肯定明显大幅下降。

There's definitely been some huge scandals in terms of financial mismanagement and the contagion from that.

就财务管理不善及其蔓延而言，肯定存在一些巨大的丑闻。

Jason Shah: But I think it's been my experience that a lot of new technologies don't move up in a straight line, and Web3 is especially challenging here because so many things have been financialized from the outset, whereas generally speaking, you'll see startups or new technologies mature over many years, whether it's the internet itself, artificial intelligence, QR codes, all sorts of things that kind of have gone through different periods of adoption, and so, I think we're seeing things kind of record Ethereum transactions happening, new Layer 2 technologies launching all the time that are going to help scale Layer 1 Blockchains, Solana has announced its phone that's going to be the first sort of Web3 native phone out there.

Jason Shah：但我认为根据我的经验，很多新技术不会直线上升，而 Web3 在这里尤其具有挑战性，因为很多东西从一开始就已经金融化了，而一般来说，你会看到初创公司或新技术成熟了很多年，无论是互联网本身、人工智能、二维码，还是经历了不同采用时期的各种东西，所以，我认为我们正在看到记录以太坊交易发生的事情，新的 Layer一直在推出的 2 项技术将有助于扩展第 1 层区块链，Solana 宣布其手机将成为第一款 Web3 原生手机。

So, there's so many new exciting product developments and users entering the space that as much as prices have come down, I'm really optimistic about the state of Web3.

因此，有如此多令人兴奋的新产品开发和用户进入该领域，导致价格下降，我对 Web3 的状况非常乐观。

Lenny: I think about a little bit is going through this shift in excitement about Web3 as a PM within a company working in this space, I imagine it tests some of the core skills of a PM, like keeping people focused, prioritizing effectively, keeping morale up.

Lenny：我认为，作为在这个领域工作的公司的 PM，我认为它正在经历这种对 Web3 的兴奋转变，我想它测试了 PM 的一些核心技能，比如让人们集中注意力、有效地确定优先级、保持士气。

If people are getting like, "Oh man, all my cryptos going down," I'm curious how you've been able to leverage those skills and what you've learned going through this experience, keeping people focused, morale up, prioritizing effectively, those sorts of things.

如果人们会说，“天啊，我所有的加密货币都贬值了”，我很好奇你如何能够利用这些技能以及你在这次经历中学到的东西，让人们保持专注，士气高昂，有效地确定优先顺序，诸如此类。

Jason Shah: Yeah, it's a great question.

杰森·沙阿：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

It's really important, right, because we've seen in this space that there are these cycles, and I think that morale and ability to keep building are the determinants of long-term success, and if everybody kind of takes the ball and goes home, that uncertain future won't necessarily materialize.

这真的很重要，对吧，因为我们已经在这个领域看到了这些循环，我认为士气和持续建设的能力是长期成功的决定因素，如果每个人都接球回家，那么不确定的未来不一定会成为现实。

So, in my opinion, I think that the only way to maintain moral is to make progress.

所以，在我看来，我认为保持道德的唯一途径就是不断进步。

I think that no speech, no sort of extrinsic motivators like we're going to give everybody some free crypto to keep motivated about it or something like that really works.

我认为没有任何演讲，没有任何外部激励因素，比如我们会给每个人一些免费的加密货币来保持动力，或者类似的东西确实有效。

I think people get really excited when they see progress.

我认为人们在看到进步时会非常兴奋。

Jason Shah: So, for example, at Alchemy, we see more developers than we've ever had on the platform today, and then we're shipping, we just launched Solana support and people are like, "This is real." We're actually doing things, building things.

Jason Shah：例如，在 Alchemy，我们看到平台上的开发人员数量比以往任何时候都多，然后我们就发布了，我们刚刚推出了 Solana 支持，人们会说，“这是真的。”我们实际上是在做事、建造东西。

We just had our team out at EthCC which is a big conference in Paris for the Ethereum community, and it was wild the number of people that were there, products being built.

我们刚刚在 EthCC 上组建了我们的团队，这是在巴黎为以太坊社区举办的一次大型会议，那里的人数非常多，正在开发的产品也很多。

Pretty much every crypto conference has a hackathon, and so, it keeps the spirit of building so alive.

几乎每个加密货币会议都会举办黑客马拉松，因此，它使建设精神保持活力。

Jason Shah: And so, I think it at Alchemy and just in other situations that I've been in as a leader over time, I think it's all about a focus on progress and moving forward.

Jason Shah：所以，我认为在 Alchemy 以及我作为领导者长期以来所经历的其他情况下，我认为这都是关于关注进步和前进。

We saw this at Airbnb when the business had a draw down in revenue, and I know you'd covered this with Sanchan recently, right?

当 Airbnb 的业务收入下降时，我们就看到了这一点，我知道您最近向 Sanchan 报道过这一情况，对吧？

It was 85, 90% revenue and you didn't know when it was going to turn around, right?

这是 85%、90% 的收入，你不知道什么时候会扭转局面，对吧？

It's not just like, "Oh yeah, this will come back in six months and we can just keep plowing forward." But I think what worked was making progress and actually focusing on product and your customers, and ultimately if you hire the right people who are motivated for the right reasons, I think that recipe keeps people highly motivated and highly effective at building for when things do eventually turn around.

这不仅仅是“哦，是的，六个月后就会恢复，我们可以继续努力前进。”但我认为，有效的方法是取得进展，真正关注产品和客户，最终，如果你雇佣了正确的人，他们因正确的原因而受到激励，我认为这个秘诀可以让人们保持高度积极性，并在事情最终发生逆转时高效地进行建设。

Lenny: One of the most interesting and maybe surprising points you made in the post that you wrote about being a PM in Web3 is that there's much less need for a PM, especially early stage Web3, and it feels like, the stuff you're talking about feels like a PM's really helpful along these lines.

Lenny：您在关于成为 Web3 中的 PM 的文章中提出的最有趣且可能令人惊讶的观点之一是，对 PM 的需求要少得多，尤其是早期的 Web3，而且感觉您正在谈论的东西感觉 PM 在这些方面确实很有帮助。

So, I'm curious, are things changing at all there?

所以，我很好奇，那里的情况有变化吗？

Have you changed your perspective on PMs and Web3, and then I don't know, where do you see the evolution of product management and Web3?

您是否改变了对PM和Web3的看法，然后我不知道，您如何看待产品管理和Web3的演变？

Jason Shah: I actually am seeing things change a lot, and one thing in Web3, if one learns nothing is the ability to admit when they're wrong or when things change.

Jason Shah：我实际上看到事情发生了很大的变化，而在 Web3 中，如果一个人什么也没学到，那就是能够在自己错误或事情发生变化时承认。

And so, I think that that's exactly what I'm seeing.

所以，我认为这正是我所看到的。

So, basically, I'm specifically noticing a lot of teams hiring product leaders, more product managers.

所以，基本上，我特别注意到很多团队正在招聘产品领导者，更多的产品经理。

Those product managers are actually now working kind of increasingly in sort of more traditional product management fashion, in addition to some of the differences that we discussed in the post around the community management and role in marketing and things like this, but specifically, Uniswap just made a big hire out of Meta.

这些产品经理实际上现在越来越多地以更传统的产品管理方式工作，除了我们在帖子中讨论的围绕社区管理和营销角色等方面的一些差异之外，但具体来说，Uniswap 刚刚从 Meta 中聘请了大量员工。

I saw that Gemini also did the same.

我看到双子座也做了同样的事情。

We're seeing OpenSea hire a lot of talent along these lines too, even through the ups and downs that their business has seen, and at all levels.

我们看到 OpenSea 也聘用了很多此类人才，即使他们的业务经历了各个级别的起起落落。

Whether it's kind of product manager, senior product manager, director, VP or CPO, you're seeing it across the board.

无论是产品经理、高级产品经理、总监、副总裁还是首席产品官，你都会看到这一点。

Jason Shah: And so, I think that's partially happening because you're seeing a maturation of products, right, and so, maybe you can start early with a few engineers, a community manager, get the ball rolling, but eventually the product is more mature, the complexity has grown, the role of the product manager is far more useful than they can differentiate.

Jason Shah：所以，我认为这部分发生是因为你看到了产品的成熟，对吧，所以，也许你可以尽早从一些工程师、社区经理开始，让事情顺利进行，但最终产品会更加成熟，复杂性也会增加，产品经理的角色比他们能够区分的更有用。

I also think the market is getting increasingly competitive.

我还认为市场竞争越来越激烈。

So, there's many NFT marketplaces.

所以，有很多 NFT 市场。

There's many Layer 1 and Layer 2 blockchains.

有许多第一层和第二层区块链。

As a result, I think product is always a competitive advantage, right?

因此，我认为产品始终是竞争优势，对吗？

If it's working, it improves strategy, it improves execution, and improves team collaboration.

如果它有效，它就会改善策略、改善执行力并改善团队协作。

And so, maybe that was less of a difference maker before where these teams didn't need that competitive advantage as much because maybe they launched a token and the token was mooning, and so a bunch of people were adopting the product, but that only lasts so long, and first principles still come come in to focus, whether it's one day or one month from now.

因此，也许这在之前并没有那么重要，因为这些团队并不那么需要这种竞争优势，因为也许他们推出了一种代币，而代币正在酝酿之中，所以很多人都在采用该产品，但这只会持续这么长时间，无论是一天还是一个月后，第一原则仍然是人们关注的焦点。

Jason Shah: So, I'm definitely seeing it shift.

Jason Shah：所以，我确实看到了这种变化。

It's definitely making a huge, positive difference in the cases that I've observed, and my hunch is we're only going to continue to observe this because with more user adoption comes new challenges, and for all these players that are growing and getting some form of adoption, the product complexity is only going to grow, and having somebody to help lead teams, help prioritize between all the different products that they could build or strategies they could pursue is going to only increase in importance.

在我观察到的案例中，这肯定会产生巨大的、积极的变化，我的预感是我们只会继续观察这一点，因为随着更多的用户采用，新的挑战也随之而来，对于所有这些正在成长并获得某种形式采用的参与者来说，产品的复杂性只会增加，而有人帮助领导团队，帮助确定他们可以构建的所有不同产品或他们可以追求的策略之间的优先级，只会增加其重要性。

Lenny: I know we're like we're PM people talking about the value of PM, but something I find is that people that are kind of anti having a PM or don't see why they need a PM in my experience just haven't worked with a great product manager because my experience, you find a great PM, they just make everything better, and so, it's not surprising to hear what you're sharing which is people are kind of discovering that value of bringing on a product manager, even if it's mostly engineering work.

Lenny：我知道我们就像 PM 的人在谈论 PM 的价值，但我发现，那些反对 PM 的人，或者不明白为什么他们需要 PM，以我的经验来看，他们只是没有与优秀的产品经理一起工作，因为我的经验，你找到了一个优秀的 PM，他们只会让一切变得更好，所以，听到你分享的内容并不奇怪，人们会发现引入产品经理的价值，即使它主要是工程工作。

And so, that's promising, and I wonder if that's just a natural evolution of a new space where people are like, "Eh, I don't need PMs in this one," and then like, "Oh, okay, well, I see.

所以，这是有希望的，我想知道这是否只是一个新空间的自然演变，人们会说，“呃，我在这个领域不需要产品经理”，然后说，“哦，好吧，好吧，我明白了。

All these things aren't happening.

所有这些事情都没有发生。

We need someone to help.

我们需要有人帮忙。

Who can do that for us?

谁能为我们做到这一点？

Maybe it's a PM."

也许是一位总理。”

Jason Shah: Yeah, that's a great observation.

Jason Shah：是的，这是一个很好的观察。

I think that combination of having a direct need for something that emerges as well as if somebody's had either a bad experience or not even had any experience with somebody who can play this role which is quite common in Web3, especially because a lot of folks are relatively early in their career, given the kind of accessibility of the space, and I think frankly the more adept understanding of the space naturally that a lot of people have when they're early in their career and less set in their ways.

我认为，对出现的东西有直接的需求，以及某人有过糟糕的经历，或者甚至没有与可以扮演这个角色的人有任何经验，这在 Web3 中很常见，特别是因为考虑到该空间的可访问性，很多人都处于职业生涯相对早期，而且我坦率地认为，很多人在职业生涯早期并且不太固定自己的方式时，自然会对这个空间有更熟练的理解。

And so, that's a great point, and as a result, the better PMs we see in Web3, hopefully the value will prove itself out over time.

所以，这是一个很好的观点，因此，我们在 Web3 中看到了更好的 PM，希望随着时间的推移，其价值会得到证明。

Lenny: And hopefully they do well so people don't keep getting burned out by bad PMs.

Lenny：希望他们做得很好，这样人们就不会一直被糟糕的 PM 搞得精疲力竭。

Jason Shah: We're rooting for all PMs, but definitely Web3 PMs too.

Jason Shah：我们支持所有 PM，但也绝对支持 Web3 PM。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

What's surprised you most about working in Web3 as a PM?

作为一名 PM，在 Web3 工作中最令您惊讶的是什么？

Jason Shah: I mean, I think that the biggest surprise to me, despite what we were just talking about, was how big some products have gotten without kind of the traditional either product manager role or without the playbooks that we're so used to from the last 20 years of the internet.

Jason Shah：我的意思是，我认为对我来说最大的惊喜是，尽管我们刚刚谈论了这些，但一些产品在没有传统的产品经理角色或没有我们过去 20 年互联网所习惯的剧本的情况下已经变得如此之大。

And so, for example, Uniswap has done more daily volume on certain days than Coinbase, and Uniswap is about a hundred people versus 5,000-plus at Coinbase, right?

举例来说，Uniswap 在某些日子的每日交易量比 Coinbase 还要多，Uniswap 大约有 100 人，而 Coinbase 则有 5,000 多人，对吗？

So, that's astounding to me.

所以，这让我感到惊讶。

Jason Shah: I think a lot of these NFT collections and communities that have grown.

Jason Shah：我认为很多 NFT 收藏和社区都已经成长。

I met with a lot of these at NFT.NYC recently, and a lot of them, aside from the price speculation and things like this, have actually built, the Bored Ape Yacht Club is actually building a metaverse project that does look better than some of the digital games that I've used in the past of Second Life and things like this.

我最近在 NFT.NYC 上遇到了很多这样的项目，除了价格投机之类的东西之外，其中很多都已经实际建造了，Bored Ape Yacht Club 实际上正在建造一个元宇宙项目，它看起来确实比我过去在《第二人生》之类的东西中使用过的一些数字游戏要好。

Obviously, a lot of time has passed and so there's a greater foundation of technology to build off of and they're working with a partner on that product as well, but there's a ton of progress being made without some of the traditional product structure or individuals.

显然，已经过去了很多时间，因此有了更强大的技术基础，他们也在与合作伙伴合作开发该产品，但在没有一些传统产品结构或个人的情况下，也取得了大量进展。

And so, again, I think PMs play a really strong role, but it's been incredibly surprising to see how far products can get without the product playbooks and resources that somebody who's worked in the internet space from the last 10 or 20 years is so used to.

因此，我再次认为产品经理发挥着非常重要的作用，但令人难以置信的是，如果没有过去 10 或 20 年在互联网领域工作的人所熟悉的产品手册和资源，产品能够取得多大的进步，这真是令人难以置信。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

We're going to move on from Web3 and chat a bit about some of your other career accomplishments and companies you've worked at.

我们将继续讨论 Web3，谈谈您的其他一些职业成就和您曾工作过的公司。

So, you worked at, you mentioned Yammer, Microsoft, Amazon, Airbnb.

所以，你曾工作过，你提到了 Yammer、微软、亚马逊、Airbnb。

I'm curious which of those companies has most informed the way you approach product and build product and run teams because they're all so different in how they operate, and I'm always curious what company is the formative experience for you that's like, "Here's how I like to build product most." I know it's always a combination, but how do you think about that?

我很好奇这些公司中哪家最了解你处理产品、构建产品和运营团队的方式，因为它们的运作方式都非常不同，而且我一直很好奇哪家公司对你来说是形成性的经历，就像“这就是我最喜欢构建产品的方式”。我知道这总是一个组合，但你对此有何看法？

Jason Shah: Yeah, it's definitely a combination, but I would say if I had to pick, Amazon, even though I was only there for about a year after the acquisition.

Jason Shah：是的，这绝对是一个组合，但如果我必须选择，我会说，亚马逊，尽管我在收购后只在那里工作了大约一年。

I say that because of this blend between product and business thinking that is especially present there.

我这么说是因为产品和商业思维之间的融合尤其存在。

And so, people say Google is an engineering culture.

因此，人们说谷歌是一种工程文化。

People said Facebook is a product culture, Airbnb or Pinterest, sometimes a design culture or things like this, and I think that Amazon was a place where you couldn't divorce business and product.

人们说 Facebook 是一种产品文化，Airbnb 或 Pinterest，有时是一种设计文化或类似的东西，而我认为亚马逊是一个你无法将业务和产品分开的地方。

You couldn't be a product manager without thinking about revenue growth, without thinking about go to market, and I really like that because as a startup founder doing product in a bigger company, it gave me the chance to exercise a lot of those skills.

如果你不考虑收入增长，不考虑进入市场，你就不可能成为一名产品经理，我真的很喜欢这一点，因为作为一个在更大公司做产品的初创公司创始人，它让我有机会锻炼很多这些技能。

Jason Shah: It's very similar actually to how I feel at Alchemy now where I remember my first month there I was like, people ask me how's it going, I'm like, "I feel like an athlete.

Jason Shah：这实际上与我现在在 Alchemy 的感受非常相似，我记得在那里的第一个月，人们问我进展如何，我就像，“我感觉自己像一名运动员。

I feel alive again." I can do M&A one day, I can be doing product another minute.

我感觉自己又活过来了。”有一天我可以进行并购，另一分钟我可以做产品。

I could be figuring out, oh, we need to hire our first lawyer to write onboarding plans for employees the next minute, and it wasn't as siloed as sometimes a product role can be.

我可能会想，哦，我们需要聘请第一位律师在下一分钟为员工编写入职计划，而且它并不像有时产品角色那样孤立。

So, I think Amazon, I went there to learn and understand.

所以，我认为亚马逊，我去那里学习和了解。

That was my biggest goal was this is an incredible company that's gone into...

这是我最大的目标，这是一家令人难以置信的公司，...

The Whole Foods acquisition happened when I was there, and I was wondering how does the same company kind of within retail win with the AWS, go create studios, and I think the Amazon culture ultimately more than anything else around ownership, being vocally self-critical is right a lot as one of the leadership principles.

我在那里的时候发生了 Whole Foods 的收购，我想知道零售业中的同一家公司如何赢得 AWS，创建工作室，我认为亚马逊文化最终比其他任何围绕所有权的文化都重要，口头自我批评作为领导原则之一是正确的。

All these things combined I think created a really unique culture.

我认为所有这些因素结合起来创造了一种非常独特的文化。

Jason Shah: So, I would say Amazon's had the biggest impact on me, and there have been certain lessons that I've taken from, like you said, all these places, but Amazon was by far the place that I think left the biggest mark on my view on product and leadership.

Jason Shah：所以，我想说亚马逊对我的影响最大，就像你说的，我从所有这些地方吸取了一些教训，但到目前为止，我认为亚马逊是在我对产品和领导力的看法上留下最大印记的地方。

Lenny: That's quite amazing that you were there for a year and that's the one that's most informed and impacted you.

莱尼：你在那里待了一年，这真是太神奇了，而且那是对你影响最大和最有见识的。

Do you feel like people should try to go work at Amazon as a training ground as a PM?

您是否认为人们应该尝试去亚马逊工作，将其作为产品经理的培训基地？

Is that something you encourage PM to try to do?

您鼓励 PM 尝试这样做吗？

Jason Shah: In general, I certainly had a positive experience, but I think that as you know and as I'm sure you've advised countless people, it's so context dependent.

Jason Shah：总的来说，我确实有过积极的经历，但我认为正如你所知，并且我确信你已经向无数人提供了建议，这取决于具体情况。

Are you learning the zero to one?

你正在学习从零到一吗？

Are you learning the one to scale?

您正在学习规模化的方法吗？

What's your aspiration?

你的愿望是什么？

Is somebody trying to start a company eventually, or are they trying to work the ranks of the product leadership trajectory?

有人最终想创办一家公司，还是想跻身产品领导者的行列？

And so, I definitely enjoyed it a lot, and I think to your point, there's often a non-linear sort of correlation between factors that we traditionally think are linked, right?

所以，我确实非常喜欢它，而且我认为就你的观点而言，我们传统上认为相关的因素之间通常存在非线性相关性，对吧？

So, my time there was one of the shortest, but my learnings were some of the greatest because I was really intentional and maybe because of the sort of moment in time and what I wanted to get out of it.

所以，我在那里的时间是最短的之一，但我学到的东西是最伟大的，因为我真的是有意的，也许是因为那个时刻以及我想从中得到什么。

Jason Shah: The same way for what it's worth, while we're talking about this disconnect, when I went to Yammer, I also interviewed with kind of...

Jason Shah：同样的方式，当我们谈论这种脱节时，它的价值是什么，当我去 Yammer 时，我也采访了某种......

This was the era of TaskRabbit.

这是TaskRabbit 的时代。

I talked to Square and I remember people always say, "Well, what stage do you want to join seed, Series A, Series B?" And the crazy thing is that Yammer was, it was already passed a hundred people, it grew to 500 by the time of the acquisition, and it felt almost like the culture was so tightknit, it felt like a seed stage company at some points, even though eventually it kind of felt like...

我和 Square 谈过，我记得人们总是说，“那么，你想加入种子阶段、A 轮、B 轮？”疯狂的是，Yammer 的员工人数已经超过 100 人，到被收购时已发展到 500 人，感觉公司文化非常紧密，在某些时候感觉就像是一家种子期公司，尽管最终感觉像是……

Well, once it was acquired from Microsoft, we'll just say it didn't feel like a seed stage company anymore, but it felt smaller than a lot of the actual smaller companies than I was at.

好吧，一旦它被微软收购，我们就会说它不再像一家种子阶段的公司，但感觉它比许多比我所在的实际小公司还要小。

So, I think that's something I've noticed a lot is that a lot of the proxies don't necessarily match the internal realities in certain cases.

所以，我认为我经常注意到的是，在某些情况下，很多代理不一定符合内部现实。

Lenny: You mentioned you picked up a bunch of tactics and kind of lessons from some of these companies.

莱尼：你提到你从其中一些公司中学到了很多策略和教训。

What's one concrete process or tactic that you took it away from either Amazon or one of these other companies that stuck with you that you like to kind of share with folks?

您从亚马逊或其他那些与您保持联系的公司中拿走的具体流程或策略是什么，您愿意与人们分享？

Jason Shah: Yeah, definitely.

杰森·沙阿：是的，当然。

I mean, I think one that Amazon is well-known for is the working backwards process, and for those that don't know, the idea is try to define effectively an ideal end state which funnily enough is very similar to some of what we both experienced at Airbnb and took away, and usually the mechanism for doing this is what's called a PRFAQ, and that's a press release and frequently asked questions, and it forces a certain degree of clarity to have to actually write a press release about the product that you're going to eventually launch.

我的意思是，我认为亚马逊众所周知的一个是逆向工作过程，对于那些不知道的人来说，这个想法是试图有效地定义一个理想的最终状态，有趣的是，它与我们在 Airbnb 经历过的和带走的一些东西非常相似，通常这样做的机制就是所谓的 PRFAQ，这是一份新闻稿和常见问题，它迫使你必须在一定程度上明确地写一份关于你最终要使用的产品的新闻稿。发射。

Jason Shah: Every employee goes through actually like a business writing class after they start at Amazon.

Jason Shah：每个员工在亚马逊入职后实际上都会经历像商业写作课程一样的经历。

They give you a little card with five tips that you're supposed to keep on your desk about concision and specificity in the words you use.

他们会给你一张小卡片，上面有五个关于你所使用的词语的简洁性和特异性的提示，你应该把它们放在你的办公桌上。

For example, you should never write the word great in an Amazon press release.

例如，您永远不应该在亚马逊新闻稿中写下“伟大”这个词。

You should write user friendly in X, Y, Z way and will save customers time 20 minutes each day through this.

您应该以 X、Y、Z 方式编写用户友好的代码，这样每天可以为客户节省 20 分钟的时间。

It's intended to be very concrete in a way that avoids some of the fluffiness that frankly...

它旨在以一种非常具体的方式避免一些坦率地说......

It's funny, when people try to move from slides to docs, they really just import the same mindsets that they use in slides, but just with more words now.

有趣的是，当人们尝试从幻灯片转向文档时，他们实际上只是导入了与幻灯片中使用的相同的思维方式，但现在只是用了更多的文字。

Jason Shah: And so, I think the working backwards process of establishing the long-term goal using a mechanism like a press release and the FAQs where every word matters, and even the FAQs, for what it's worth, there's a section for external FAQs that you would include for example as an appendix, but also internal FAQs that are meant to de-risk launch or raise the elephant in the room or dogs not barking as Amazon likes to call it often.

Jason Shah：所以，我认为使用新闻稿和常见问题解答等机制来建立长期目标的过程是逆向的，其中每个词都很重要，甚至常见问题解答，无论其价值如何，都有一个外部常见问题解答部分，您可以将其作为附录包括在内，但也有内部常见问题解答，旨在降低发布风险或提高房间里的大象或狗不吠叫，亚马逊喜欢这样称呼它。

So, that was a really helpful process that felt very true to me as a way I like to live my life as well, and then also very applicable.

所以，这是一个非常有帮助的过程，对我来说感觉非常真实，也是我喜欢的生活方式，而且也非常适用。

Lenny: The tidbit about not using the word great is so interesting.

莱尼：关于不使用“伟大”这个词的花絮非常有趣。

Is there anything else there that you could share about just basically just like how to write effectively and communicate and launch.

还有什么可以分享的吗？基本上就像如何有效地写作、沟通和启动一样。

Is there any other tidbits along those lines?

沿着这些线索还有其他花絮吗？

Jason Shah: Yeah, that's a good question.

杰森·沙阿：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

In addition to not using the word great and words like it that are either subjective in what they mean or unclear in what they actually mean, definitely using numbers more than adjectives.

除了不使用“伟大”这个词以及类似的词，这些词要么是主观的意思，要么是不清楚的实际意思，绝对使用数字而不是形容词。

Strict concision, I would go over these documents countless times, and there's a phrase, I can't remember, it's either Mark Twain or another famous writer who said kill your darlings, right?

严格简洁，这些文件我看了无数遍，有一句话，我记不清了，要么是马克·吐温，要么是其他著名作家说的，杀了你的宝贝，对吧？

Cut, cut, cut, and just remove.

剪，剪，剪，然后就可以删除了。

And so, I think I found that really useful in emails I write or documents I write to this day is just going over, not because you're saving ink by cutting words, but because it forces clarity of thought.

所以，我想我发现，在我写的电子邮件或我今天写的文档中，真正有用的就是回顾，不是因为你通过删减单词来节省墨水，而是因为它迫使思想清晰。

Fewer words means every word is 10 pounds in weight instead of one, and that means that the decisions you're making, the trade offs are far more intentional, and in the case of great, if you say something is great because we're going to deliver something in two hours versus Amazon's great because the selection is very wide, the implications on strategy are completely different.

更少的单词意味着每个单词的重量都是 10 磅，而不是一个，这意味着你所做的决定、权衡要有意得多，在伟大的情况下，如果你说某件事很棒，因为我们将在两小时内交付东西，而亚马逊则说因为选择范围很广而很棒，那么对策略的影响是完全不同的。

And so, that's one of the benefits of being very specific and very concrete in language.

因此，这就是语言非常具体和具体的好处之一。

Lenny: I didn't intend to go too deep into this topic, but no one's ever covered this working backwards process on this podcast, so it's kind of interesting to talk about it a little bit more maybe.

Lenny：我本来不想太深入地讨论这个话题，但没有人在这个播客上讨论过这个向后工作的过程，所以多讨论一下可能会很有趣。

How does that actually work?

这实际上是如何运作的？

So, you sit there and you actually write out a press release that would go out when you launch this thing.

所以，你坐在那里，实际上写了一份新闻稿，当你推出这个东西时就会发布。

Is there like a template used?

有类似的模板使用吗？

Is there anything you could share for folks that want to try this out and/or point them to a resource that will help them down this road?

对于想要尝试这一点和/或向他们指出可以帮助他们走上这条路的资源的人们，您有什么可以分享的吗？

Jason Shah: Yeah, definitely.

杰森·沙阿：是的，当然。

That's a great question.

这是一个很好的问题。

So, there definitely is a template, and so, it's a combination of an internal training where you have to write one of these documents.

因此，肯定有一个模板，因此，它是内部培训的组合，您必须在其中编写这些文档之一。

You review kind of good, bad, medium versions of this.

你评论了这个的好、坏、中等版本。

It's generally used if there's let's say a proposal for a new product or even a proposal to buy a company.

如果有新产品的提案，甚至是收购公司的提案，通常会使用它。

This helps really simulate what it's going to be like.

这有助于真正模拟它会是什么样子。

Jason Shah: With respect to a template, what I recall is it was often sort of an introduction where you get kind of right to the point.

Jason Shah：关于模板，我记得它通常是一种介绍，可以切中要点。

You say what you're announcing.

你说你要宣布什么。

Then usually you would describe the problem in one paragraph and in very clear language.

然后通常你会用一段非常清晰的语言描述问题。

Again, all of the writing is this way.

再说一次，所有的写作都是这样的。

Then the solution, you briefly describe the product.

然后是解决方案，你简单描述一下产品。

After that, there's always a customer quote, and this is an example of this customer obsession that Amazon is so famous for that many companies like to say or emulate, but I think it really kind of may not be true if you evaluate the mechanisms that they use, for example, product specs that either don't have customer data or don't have quotes from customers, things like this.

之后，总会有客户报价，这是亚马逊如此出名的客户痴迷的一个例子，以至于很多公司都喜欢说或效仿，但我认为，如果你评估他们使用的机制，例如，没有客户数据或没有客户报价的产品规格，这可能不是真的。

And so, there's a customer quote, and you have to literally put yourself into the shoes of...

因此，有一个客户报价，您必须真正将自己置于……的立场上。

Let's say you were launching Prime.

假设您正在推出 Prime。

Put yourself in the shoes of Lenny from San Francisco.

设身处地为来自旧金山的莱尼着想。

What exactly is he going to say when he has access to this, and how's it different than his life today, and what are the words that he's going to use?

当他接触到这一点时，他到底会说什么？这与他今天的生活有什么不同？他会用什么词？

Jason Shah: I mean, if great is one of your favorite words, maybe you could stretch it, but I think if you were in a room with your peers at Amazon, they might put some red pen through any greats that are used there.

Jason Shah：我的意思是，如果伟大是你最喜欢的词之一，也许你可以扩展它，但我认为如果你和亚马逊的同事在一个房间里，他们可能会用红笔写下那里使用的任何伟大的词。

So, I found that really helpful, and it also helps force out of this box that product managers, product leaders tend to get into of thinking that they are always the customer and being a little sort of intellectually lazy, where I'm like, "Yeah, I would like Prime, so let me write the quote for what I would like," but maybe I'm only a small segment within our total customer addressable market.

所以，我发现这确实很有帮助，而且它也有助于摆脱产品经理、产品负责人倾向于认为自己始终是客户并且在智力上有点懒惰的观念，我会想，“是的，我想要 Prime，所以让我写下我想要的报价”，但也许我只是我们整个客户可定位市场中的一小部分。

Jason Shah: So, anyhow, there's a customer quote, then there's one leadership quote similarly that this achieves a complimentary goal, like how does this fit into our strategy in a way that you would express to the public but is still true to what the internal sensitivities and mechanisms would be.

Jason Shah：所以，无论如何，有一个客户的报价，然后有一个领导层的报价，类似地，这实现了一个免费的目标，比如这如何以一种你向公众表达的方式符合我们的战略，但仍然忠于内部敏感性和机制。

And then a call to action towards the end, and not just download here, but this will be available to customers next month.

然后是最后的号召性用语，不仅仅是在这里下载，而且将于下个月向客户提供。

They can go access these portals within these Whole Food stores at this state.

他们可以访问该州这些全食超市内的这些门户。

It again forces clarity of thought with respect to not only the rollout plan, but taking a step back.

它再次迫使我们不仅要在推出计划方面明确思路，还要后退一步。

When you read it, do you feel like you would actually want this product?

当您读到它时，您是否真的想要这个产品？

Would you use it?

你会用它吗？

So, I found that really helpful as a structure.

所以，我发现这作为一个结构确实很有帮助。

Lenny: Can you just summarize those again real quick?

莱尼：你能快速总结一下这些吗？

Jason Shah: For sure.

杰森·沙阿：当然。

So the structure of the PRFAQ docs was generally an introduction where you're announced the product, problem, solution, customer quote, leadership quote, and a call to action.

因此，PRFAQ 文档的结构通常是介绍，其中宣布产品、问题、解决方案、客户报价、领导报价和行动号召。

Lenny: So, interesting how similar that is to a one pager potentially.

莱尼：有趣的是，这与单寻呼机可能非常相似。

The other thought I had while you're chatting, so the Airbnb approach is work back from the ideal, Brian talks about it, the 11-star experience versus the Amazon approach which it doesn't need to be the ideal, it just needs to be an awesome launch.

另一个想法是我在你们聊天时想到的，所以 Airbnb 的方法是从理想中回归的，布莱恩谈到了这一点，11 星级的体验与亚马逊的方法相比，它不需要是理想的，它只需要是一个很棒的发布。

So, that's an interesting difference, both effective in different ways.

所以，这是一个有趣的区别，两者都以不同的方式有效。

Jason Shah: I think people tend to, when they see that both companies have some sort of working backwards process of thought, I would say working backwards on one hand and then 11-star experience on the other.

Jason Shah：我认为，当人们看到两家公司都有某种逆向工作的思维过程时，我会说一方面是逆向​​工作，另一方面是 11 星体验。

Listening to how you describe it, I want to almost frame it as working backwards from sort of a moment in time or a launch like you said with Amazon versus working backwards from a quality standard in some sense of an 11-star experience.

听听你是如何描述的，我想几乎将其描述为从某个时刻或像你所说的亚马逊发布那样向后工作，而不是从某种意义上的 11 星体验的质量标准向后工作。

Lenny: Going in a slightly different direction, one of the things I wanted to chat about is you worked at all these different companies and they have different types of leadership and different approaches to leadership.

莱尼：朝一个稍微不同的方向发展，我想聊的一件事是你在所有这些不同的公司工作过，他们有不同类型的领导力和不同的领导方法。

And so, I'm curious, what have you learned about effective leadership watching all these awesome operators work, and what kind of separates them in your experience from folks that maybe aren't as effective?

所以，我很好奇，通过观看所有这些出色的操作员的工作，您从有效的领导力中学到了什么？在您的经验中，他们与那些可能不那么有效的人有什么区别？

Jason Shah: Yeah, it's a great question, and to briefly recap, right, I've gotten to see somebody like David Sachs who've been the CEO of PayPal and then the founder of Yammer and gone to do many more things since then.

Jason Shah：是的，这是一个很好的问题，简单回顾一下，对，我见过像 David Sachs 这样的人，他曾担任 PayPal 的首席执行官，然后是 Yammer 的创始人，从那时起，他做了更多的事情。

I've gotten to see sort of Jeff Bezos at a distance.

我已经远远地看到了杰夫·贝佐斯。

I was never that close to him obviously and never got to work with him, but got to observe his impact on the organization.

显然，我与他的关系从未那么密切，也从未与他共事，但我观察到了他对组织的影响。

Obviously, I've gotten to witness Brian Chesky and his leadership in sort of the pre-IPO days as well as through the ups and downs of COVID, and then also now at Alchemy, our co-founders, Joe and Nikil are leaders that have really had an impact on me as well, and I would count myself, but I've also see myself as a bad leader in the start of and learn from that.

显然，我见证了 Brian Chesky 和他的领导力，经历了 IPO 前的日子以及新冠病毒的起起落落，现在在 Alchemy，我们的联合创始人 Joe 和 Nikil 也是对我产生了真正影响的领导者，我会认为自己是一个糟糕的领导者，并从中学习。

Jason Shah: I think it's a really important thing to reflect on, and I think for me there are three things that have stood out the most.

Jason Shah：我认为这是一件非常值得反思的重要事情，我认为对我来说，最突出的是三件事。

I think number one, nothing is above them.

我认为第一，没有什么比他们更重要的了。

I've seen whether it's Brian caring about the full bleed image on the homepage, whether it's Jeff Bezos who famously would receive customer emails, read many of them, forward them, and he's famous for question mark emails where for his time's sake he would just forward an email to a leader with a question mark and you would just have to figure it out and then report back in 24 hours with the resolution thereof.

我见过布莱恩是否关心主页上的全屏图像，杰夫·贝佐斯是否以接收客户电子邮件、阅读其中许多电子邮件并转发它们而闻名，他以问号电子邮件而闻名，为了他的时间，他只会将一封电子邮件转发给带有问号的领导者，你只需要弄清楚它，然后在 24 小时内报告解决方案。

But nothing's above them, and a lot of founders or a lot of CEOs or even CPOs and leaders think you get to a certain point and then I'm above a product spec, I'm above looking at the data running a sequel query, and I think that that is a mistake in a lot of ways, especially from a standpoint of who people come to respect as well as efficacy at one's job.

但没有什么比它们更重要的了，很多创始人、很多首席执行官、甚至 CPO 和领导者都认为你已经达到了某个点，然后我就超越了产品规格，我超越了运行后续查询的数据，我认为这在很多方面都是一个错误，特别是从人们尊重谁以及工作效率的角度来看。

Jason Shah: And then the other two things would be, I think they're in the details.

Jason Shah：另外两件事是，我认为它们在于细节。

So, it's less about being above something, but this is kind of Amazon's famous for auditing the details for example, and leaders are...

所以，这并不是要超越某些东西，而是亚马逊以审核细节而闻名，而领导者……

For example, when we were going to launch Prime, order a bunch of Prime things and see what happens and really test things out, and write up a long feedback email on Saturday or something like that, and make sure that things are moving forward.

例如，当我们要推出 Prime 时，订购一堆 Prime 的东西，看看会发生什么，真正测试一下，然后在周六写一封长反馈电子邮件或类似的东西，并确保事情进展顺利。

Jason Shah: So, I think in my opinion, some of the best leaders, David Sachs would do this too.

杰森·沙阿（Jason Shah）：所以，我认为，一些最好的领导者，大卫·萨克斯（David Sachs）也会这样做。

He actually ran the product reviews.

他实际上负责产品评论。

It was the CEO of the company doing product reviews, not some kind of middle tier of a director of product who was just running them.

进行产品审查的是公司的首席执行官，而不是只是负责管理产品的中层产品总监。

They were force involved and there were things to delegate and activate around, but Sachs was in all of those details and ran those product reviews himself and would talk to the product managers directly, and I think that was really impactful, and it also, I think from an accountability and culture perspective, when you're PM and you talk to the CEO and you feel like you're presenting something at product review, it's totally different, and it creates a certain amount of responsibility and quality, frankly, that I think is really important, and it's a way to coach obviously as well for those leaders to really make a mark on the organization.

他们被强制参与，有一些事情需要委派和激活，但萨克斯参与了所有这些细节，亲自进行了这些产品评审，并直接与产品经理交谈，我认为这确实很有影响力，而且，我认为从责任和文化的角度来看，当你是产品经理，你与首席执行官交谈，你觉得你在产品评审中展示了一些东西，这是完全不同的，它创造了一定程度的责任和质量，坦率地说，我认为这非常重要，而且它是显然，这也是一种指导这些领导者真正在组织中留下印记的方法。

Jason Shah: And then lastly, I think they adapt, right?

Jason Shah：最后，我认为他们会适应，对吧？

I think that are a lot of leaders who are like, "I've worked 20 years to become a leader in this way and I have a playbook," either based on past experience or based on some sort of philosophy that they've developed over time that they feel committed to in some way, and I think coming back to some of these examples of watching Brian lead through COVID or watching Joe and Nikil now through this particular crypto winter shift gears and figure out exactly like we're still building the core business, but how else can we lean into this and adapt to the unique opportunities that are in front of us.

我认为很多领导者都会说，“我已经工作了 20 年，以这种方式成为一名领导者，我有一个剧本”，要么是基于过去的经验，要么是基于他们随着时间的推移而发展起来的某种哲学，他们在某种程度上感到自己致力于此。我想，回到这些例子，看看 Brian 领导新冠疫情，或者看看 Joe 和 Nikil 现在经历这个特殊的加密货币冬季换档，并弄清楚我们仍在建设核心业务，但我们还能如何依靠这一点并适应我们面前的独特机会。

I think that's really powerful.

我认为这真的很强大。

So, what I've seen is nothing is above them, they're in the details, and they adapt to new information and new situations.

所以，我所看到的是，没有什么比他们更重要的，他们注重细节，并且他们适应新信息和新情况。

That's what I've seen the most that I've appreciated in the best leaders that I've gotten to either observe or work closely with.

这是我在观察或密切合作的最佳领导者身上看到的最令我欣赏的地方。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's super interesting.

这太有趣了。

The first two are kind of connected which is really interesting, and it just reminds me of Brian and how detail-oriented he was about everything.

前两个是有联系的，这真的很有趣，它让我想起了布莱恩，以及他对一切事情是多么注重细节。

He used to review every product launch and every screen of every new product.

他曾经审查每一个产品的发布和每一个新产品的每一个屏幕。

We had to show him here's what we're launching this week, and he just kind of went through and either blew it up or let it pass.

我们必须向他展示我们这周要推出的产品，而他只是经历了然后要么把它毁掉要么让它过去。

And then I just remember the founders, when they were designing the office space, just looking at pictures of listings they wanted to...

然后我只记得创始人在设计办公空间时，只是看着他们想要的列表图片......

Because Airbnb, the office conference rooms were modeled after Airbnb listings, and Jim just looking through hundreds of listings that the team brought him and he'd just picked the ones that he wanted to turn into conference rooms.

由于 Airbnb，办公室会议室是按照 Airbnb 列表建模的，吉姆只是浏览了团队给他带来的数百个列表，然后他就选择了他想要变成会议室的列表。

Also, obviously Steve Jobs.

另外，显然还有史蒂夫·乔布斯。

This is a really interesting through line of great leaders is just this huge attention to detail, and there's probably something about once they let go that thing start to kind of diminish.

这是伟大领导者的一条非常有趣的路线，就是对细节的巨大关注，一旦他们放手，这种事情可能就会开始减弱。

Is that what you find?

那是你发现的吗？

Jason Shah: Yeah, that's such a great point.

Jason Shah：是的，这是一个很好的观点。

You mentioned the Jobs example and there's a great book that you've probably read or in your community seen, I believe it's called Creative Selection by Ken Kocienda about the early days of the iPhone, and I think it was Project Purple or something like that, and you're absolutely right.

你提到了乔布斯的例子，有一本很棒的书你可能读过或者在你的社区中看过，我相信这本书叫 Ken Kocienda 写的《Creative Selection》，讲述了 iPhone 的早期发展，我认为它是 Project Purple 或类似的东西，你是绝对正确的。

There wasn't no slides, none of this.

没有幻灯片，没有这些。

They brought in the prototypes for each of those reviews and things like how to do typing on a tiny screen and those early keyboards and how to do auto complete, and Jobs was totally in those details from Ken's telling in this book.

他们为每条评论引入了原型，以及如何在小屏幕和早期键盘上打字以及如何自动完成等内容，乔布斯完全了解肯在本书中讲述的这些细节。

Jason Shah: So, I couldn't agree with you more, and it's something that people miss because most of their exposure to leaders is on a YouTube video or at all hands, and so, they don't really get to see that side of leaders I think, and it's also not what I think from an ego perspective is kind of what people want it to be about.

Jason Shah：所以，我完全同意你的观点，这是人们所怀念的，因为他们接触领导者的大部分时间都是在 YouTube 视频上或在任何地方，所以，我认为他们并没有真正看到领导者的这一面，而且我认为从自我角度来看，这也不是人们想要的那样。

They want to be about making big decisions or commanding a large group of people, and I think it's hard to do that without these pieces.

他们想要做出重大决定或指挥一大群人，我认为如果没有这些部分，很难做到这一点。

Jason Shah: One other thing I just wanted to briefly touch on to your point on how they're connected, it's a really good point, and at the surface it almost seems like they could potentially be the same thing.

Jason Shah：另一件事我只是想简单地谈谈你关于它们如何连接的观点，这是一个非常好的观点，从表面上看，它们几乎可能是同一件事。

One thing worth calling out though I think is the idea of something not being above somebody or a person not being above things.

但我认为值得指出的一件事是，某物不凌驾于某人之上，或者一个人不凌驾于事物之上。

I think the biggest thing I take away from that is humility is that nothing is not my job, right?

我认为我从中学到的最大的东西就是谦虚，没有什么不是我的工作，对吧？

Anything, could be picking up paper off the floor and putting it in the trash, or it could be reviewing a product spec, whatever it is, and then begin the details in my opinion is about craft, right, and really understanding things at a low level such that you're able to reason about it and make good decisions, like Brian with the homepage or Bezos in some cases with customer processes that he got in the weeds on.

任何事情，都可以是从地板上捡起纸并把它扔进垃圾桶，也可以是审查产品规格，无论它是什么，然后开始细节，在我看来，这是关于工艺的，对的，真正在低水平上理解事物，这样你就能够推理它并做出正确的决定，就像布莱恩的主页或贝索斯在某些情况下的客户流程，他在杂草中。

I think the two together, humility and being excellent at craft, I think is a very potent combination, especially when you throw in the last thing of being able to adapt to any situation.

我认为谦逊和出色的工艺这两者结合在一起，我认为是一个非常有效的组合，特别是当你最后考虑到能够适应任何情况时。

Lenny: That's really interesting.

莱尼：这真的很有趣。

What it also makes me think about is the reason things are less good often if there isn't a person at the top that's being very detail-oriented, and I find this with the newsletter and this podcast and other stuff is no one's going to care as much about it.

这也让我想到的是，如果高层没有一个非常注重细节的人，事情往往会变得不太好，我发现时事通讯、播客和其他东西都不会那么关心这一点。

No one's going to be like, "Oh my god, I really need to get this right so much because I'm just like, I'm personally feeling responsible for the quality of this stuff and it's like it's on my shoulders to make this awesome." And so, I think that's probably why a lot of the best stuff is led by a singular leader or singular opinion or singular person.

没有人会说，“天哪，我真的非常需要把这件事做好，因为我个人感觉对这些东西的质量负有责任，而且就好像我有责任让这件事变得很棒。”所以，我认为这可能就是为什么很多最好的东西都是由单一的领导者或单一的意见或单一的人领导的。

A lot of the best startups are just someone's vision is like, "Here, this is what we're going to do," and then the more it becomes a community-driven thing, the less often it ends up being successful.

许多最好的初创公司只是某人的愿景，“这就是我们要做的事情”，然后它越成为社区驱动的事情，最终获得成功的机会就越少。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Maven.

莱尼：这一集是由 Maven 为您带来的。

I've been an investor, an advisor, and a customer of Maven from day one.

从第一天起，我就是 Maven 的投资者、顾问和客户。

I even taught my product management course through Maven.

我什至通过 Maven 教授我的产品管理课程。

Maven is a cohort-based learning platform where you learn alongside peers with a direct connection to your instructor.

Maven 是一个基于队列的学习平台，您可以与同伴一起学习，并直接与讲师联系。

Maven's got a ton of courses for product managers, founders, and executives to help them level up in all kinds of ways.

Maven 为产品经理、创始人和高管提供了大量课程，帮助他们以各种方式提升水平。

Over 10,000 people from Airbnb to Coinbase to Google to Tesla have taken courses from real experts and operators that have spent decades honing their craft.

从 Airbnb 到 Coinbase、Google、Tesla，超过 10,000 名员工已经接受了真正的专家和运营商的课程，他们花了几十年的时间磨练自己的技术。

As part of their fall season which Maven just launched, there are over 100 new courses starting in the next few weeks.

作为 Maven 刚刚推出的秋季课程的一部分，未来几周将推出 100 多门新课程。

Many of the people I've had on this podcast are teaching courses like Jackie Bavaro on product strategy, Arielle Jackson on startup branding, Emily Kramer on B2B marketing, plus Annie Duke on decision-making, Nir Eyal on behavioral design and how to break into product management with Marily Nika.

我在这个播客中遇到的许多人都在教授课程，比如 Jackie Bavaro 教授产品策略、Arielle Jackson 教授初创品牌、Emily Kramer 教授 B2B 营销、Annie Duke 教授决策、Nir Eyal 教授行为设计以及如何与 Marily Nika 一起进入产品管理。

Check out all of my favorite courses and learn more at maven.com/lenny.

在 maven.com/lenny 上查看我最喜欢的所有课程并了解更多信息。

Jason Shah: I feel like you're totally right, especially, I mean this is the natural progression, but it doesn't have to be that way right?

Jason Shah：我觉得你完全正确，特别是，我的意思是这是自然的进展，但不一定是这样，对吗？

And I think to your point, I think a lot of leaders focus on accountability in an organization once they get large, and so, you see things like performance reviews and things like this.

我认为就你的观点而言，我认为一旦组织规模扩大，很多领导者就会关注组织的问责制，因此，你会看到绩效评估之类的事情。

It's a very top-down approach to trying to drive results, but is opposed to a sense of accountability if you drove a sense of responsibility.

这是一种非常自上而下的方法，试图推动结果，但如果你推动责任感，那么它就与责任感相反。

If people felt like this is my company too, this is my product, this is my office floor.

如果人们觉得这也是我的公司，这是我的产品，这是我的办公楼层。

I don't want trash on the floor.

我不希望地板上有垃圾。

I'm going to pick it up and throw it there.

我要把它捡起来扔到那里。

Even if we have somebody whose job it supposedly is to clean that up, it's like I take pride of ownership in this and I'm connected to it, and I think that makes all the difference in terms of...

即使我们有一个人的工作应该是清理这些问题，我也对这件事感到自豪，并且我与它有联系，我认为这使得一切都变得不同......

At Airbnb, I think people who felt that way were willing to push back on certain things, or they're willing to propose new ideas because they felt invested in the company.

在 Airbnb，我认为有这种感觉的人愿意抵制某些事情，或者他们愿意提出新的想法，因为他们觉得对公司有投资。

Jason Shah: I see it at Alchemy all the time.

Jason Shah：我在 Alchemy 经常看到这种情况。

I see an engineer hop in and fix something at 3:00 AM because they feel committed to the code base, and it's not a thousand-person engineering organization where my only job is to make the iOS app 2% more effective at engaging users.

我看到一名工程师在凌晨 3:00 介入并修复某些问题，因为他们觉得自己致力于代码库，而且这不是一个拥有 1000 人的工程组织，我唯一的工作就是让 iOS 应用程序在吸引用户方面提高 2% 的效率。

Lenny: So, you touched on the skill of pushing back on a founder or CEO, and I know that's something you're really good at.

莱尼：所以，你谈到了反击创始人或首席执行官的技巧，我知道这是你真正擅长的事情。

I've seen you do this.

我见过你这样做。

I'm curious what you've learned about how to effectively do that as a PM at a company pushing back on a CEO or founder when you disagree.

我很好奇，作为一家公司的产品经理，当你有不同意见时，如何有效地反击首席执行官或创始人，你学到了什么？

Jason Shah: I mean, I think this is one of...

Jason Shah：我的意思是，我认为这是......

I actually think it's one of the most misunderstood terms in a sense because I think language like we were talking about earlier is so important, and yet what you call something ends up defining I think 90% of what people understand about a concept, right?

事实上，我认为从某种意义上说，这是最容易被误解的术语之一，因为我认为我们之前讨论的语言是如此重要，但你所说的东西最终定义了我认为人们对一个概念的理解的 90%，对吗？

And so, pushback is, I couldn't imagine a word more viscerally that makes you feel like you're sort physically going against what somebody else wants, and it gears people into a mindset of then, well, how should I push back.

所以，“抵制”是，我无法想象有哪个词更能从内心深处让你感觉自己在身体上违背了别人想要的东西，它让人们陷入一种心态，那么，我应该如何抵制。

It starts from a place of I need to disagree, I need to say no. It's a very negative mindset, purely based on the word that has come to label a behavior that alternatively could be about how do I shift the direction on something, or how do I help the business actually succeed when I disagree with somebody about something, and that's a very different mindset.

它从我需要不同意、我需要说不的地方开始。这是一种非常消极的心态，纯粹基于这个词来标记一种行为，或者可以是关于我如何改变某事的方向，或者当我在某件事上与某人意见不合时我如何帮助企业真正取得成功，这是一种非常不同的心态。

Jason Shah: And so, the two things that I've seen be most successful would be, I think number one is actually understanding what a goal is or what somebody's kind of issue is with something, and then actually aligning those things in some way.

Jason Shah：所以，我认为最成功的两件事是，我认为第一是真正理解目标是什么，或者某人对某件事的问题是什么，然后以某种方式实际调整这些事情。

So, in coming back to Airbnb, I remember Airbnb had bought a company, Luxury Retreats.

所以，回到 Airbnb 时，我记得 Airbnb 收购了一家公司，Luxury Retreats。

There was a goal to integrate that business and that product into the full Airbnb suite, and there was a lot of potential with that, but I remember that there was part of the product experience that was oriented around chatting with somebody and the idea that the business had had a very large team of wonderful people who helped you as concierges basically for your trip, and so, this was a team that I was on that, to be honest, had fairly low morale.

我们的目标是将业务和产品整合到完整的 Airbnb 套件中，这有很大的潜力，但我记得产品体验的一部分是以与某人聊天为导向的，而且公司有一个非常大的团队，由优秀的人组成，他们基本上为你的旅行提供礼宾帮助，所以，老实说，我所在的团队士气相当低落。

It's always difficult to integrate an acquisition with a company, especially when we were based in different places, et cetera.

将收购与一家公司整合起来总是很困难，尤其是当我们位于不同的地方时，等等。

Jason Shah: I remember hearing from a leader who had been at Airbnb for a while who's very effective at persuading senior leadership, and they understood why this was a problem because this chat product was growing in complexity.

Jason Shah：我记得曾在 Airbnb 工作过一段时间的一位领导者说过，他在说服高层领导方面非常有效，他们理解为什么这是一个问题，因为这个聊天产品变得越来越复杂。

You'd have to build all these features into it, and nobody could successfully shift the direction, and as a result, it was just this...

你必须将所有这些功能构建到其中，没有人可以成功地改变方向，结果就是这样......

It was a mess as a result, and there was very low morale because we were taking on too much scope, people weren't sure it was the right product, it was being built up as one giant launch as opposed to an iterative thing.

结果一团糟，士气很低，因为我们承担的范围太大，人们不确定这是不是正确的产品，它是作为一个巨大的发布而不是迭代而建立的。

And what was really interesting was that this leader was very effective at understanding that the goal wasn't about building a bunch of features.

真正有趣的是，这位领导者非常有效地认识到目标不是构建一堆功能。

It was about, as often discussed at Airbnb, a magical experience.

正如 Airbnb 经常讨论的那样，这是一次神奇的体验。

Jason Shah: And so, when we took a step back, it was reimagined as trip designers, not concierges, and their goal was to design your trip, and part of that meant a very elegant, simple chat experience so that you could have a efficient, fast, positive experience with that trip designer and move on.

Jason Shah：因此，当我们退后一步时，它被重新想象为旅行设计师，而不是礼宾人员，他们的目标是设计您的旅行，其中一部分意味着非常优雅、简单的聊天体验，以便您可以与旅行设计师获得高效、快速、积极的体验并继续前进。

And it shifted the pushback of like, "We can't build this thing, it's too many features, we don't have enough time, we don't have enough resources" to, "Oh, we all want a really elegant, really smooth, slick experience for our customers.

它将诸如“我们无法构建这个东西，它的功能太多，我们没有足够的时间，我们没有足够的资源”之类的阻力转变为“哦，我们都希望为我们的客户提供非常优雅、非常流畅、流畅的体验。

How do we do that?

我们该怎么做呢？

What's a trip design or a new concept that is actually going to elevate things?

什么是真正能够提升事物的旅行设计或新概念？

We're not telling you we want a payback scope.

我们并不是在告诉你我们想要一个回报范围。

We're not saying we want to settle for less.

我们并不是说我们想满足于更少。

We're actually just not only going to call it something different, but also envision a simpler experience which is more elegant.

实际上，我们不仅要给它起一个不同的名字，而且还要设想一种更简单、更优雅的体验。

It's more on brand with luxury."

更多的是品牌与奢华。”

Jason Shah: Boom, all of a sudden, everybody gets what they want.

Jason Shah：繁荣，突然间，每个人都得到了他们想要的。

It's a better customer experience, less scope, and it wasn't about saying no. It was about understanding what we're all actually sharing as a goal which was a great simple customer experience and then actually building that.

这是更好的客户体验、更小的范围，而且并不是要拒绝。这是关于了解我们实际上共享的目标，这是一个很棒的简单的客户体验，然后实际构建它。

So, I saw that to be really effective and I think that that's something I try to bring into my career.

所以，我认为这非常有效，我认为这是我试图将其带入我的职业生涯的东西。

I have a couple other examples if it's useful, but that was a big one that I learned from Airbnb.

如果有用的话，我还有其他几个例子，但这是我从 Airbnb 学到的一个重要例子。

Lenny: Yeah, another example would be great.

莱尼：是的，如果再举一个例子就好了。

One thought there though is do you think it was mostly the name and the concept or was it that it was a bigger idea?

一个想法是，你认为这主要是名称和概念，还是它是一个更大的想法？

What do you think it was about reframing it that way that got people, "Oh wow, okay, now I'm really excited about it again"?

您认为以这种方式重新构建它会让人们“哦哇，好吧，现在我再次对此感到非常兴奋”？

Jason Shah: That's a great point.

Jason Shah：这是一个很好的观点。

I think it was a big idea, right, with a good reframing, and I think it's like many things where there's the substance of something and then there's the communication of it.

我认为这是一个伟大的想法，对吧，有一个很好的重构，我认为这就像许多事情一样，有某物的实质，然后有它的交流。

And so, this is true often, for example, if a company is changing strategy.

因此，这通常是正确的，例如，如果一家公司正在改变战略。

Oftentimes people might walk away feeling like, "Yeah, I guess I kind of agree with the strategy, but the way was communicated was really poor," or vice versa, like, "Yeah, they told us in advance and they sat us down all hands, but I really disagree with this strategy and I'm going to be dug into my heels and not disagree and commit now."

通常，人们离开时可能会感觉，“是的，我想我有点同意这个策略，但沟通的方式真的很差”，反之亦然，比如，“是的，他们提前告诉我们，他们让我们坐下来，但我真的不同意这个策略，我会坚持到底，现在不会不同意和承诺。”

Jason Shah: So, in this case, I think you're totally right.

Jason Shah：所以，在这种情况下，我认为你是完全正确的。

If it was just window dressing of...

如果这只是装饰门面的话...

Founders are too smart, especially at all these companies we've talked about, to be fooled with a simple renaming of something.

创始人太聪明了，尤其是我们谈到的所有这些公司，不会被简单的重命名所愚弄。

But I think the combination of a bigger idea, more exciting idea that was at the heart of what we were all going after together, combined with a simple way of communicating it because I've also seen big ideas that are poorly communicated fall flat on their face and not achieve the intended outcome.

但我认为，更大的想法、更令人兴奋的想法是我们共同追求的核心，与简单的沟通方式相结合，因为我也看到过一些伟大的想法，如果沟通不畅，就会一败涂地，无法达到预期的结果。

Those two together, I think were a really potent combination.

我认为这两者在一起是一个非常有效的组合。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I'd love to hear another example.

我很想听另一个例子。

Jason Shah: Yeah, for sure.

杰森·沙阿：是的，当然。

So, a recent example at Alchemy actually, right?

那么，最近 Alchemy 的一个例子，对吧？

We're growing, we're hiring, but there are a lot of roles, especially being in Web3 that are not yet created.

我们正在成长，我们正在招聘，但还有很多角色尚未创建，尤其是在 Web3 中。

For example, there's traditionally growth, product growth marketing, we've created new area around growth operations which I'd be happy to talk about if we want to get into it.

例如，传统上有增长、产品增长营销，我们围绕增长运营创建了新领域，如果我们想进入的话，我很乐意谈论它。

But it's a really interest interesting area, and we were going back and forth on should we hire for this role, it's not even a real thing.

但这是一个非常有趣的领域，我们一直在考虑是否应该雇用这个职位，但这甚至不是一个真实的事情。

We've looked at some candidates, we're not so sure about them.

我们已经研究了一些候选人，但我们对他们不太确定。

And when I realize with our founders who are incredibly smart, very talented, have built the company over so many years now, they want to win.

当我意识到我们的创始人非常聪明、非常有才华，多年来建立了这家公司时，他们想要获胜。

That's what they care about at the end of the day.

这就是他们最终关心的事情。

They are so driven to win at the end of the day.

他们非常渴望最终获胜。

Jason Shah: And so, ultimately, it wasn't like, "Let me make some rational argument about the role of growth operations or let me defend some issues with this person's resume that maybe you're spotting when we make this hiring decision," but, "Oh, you want to win?

Jason Shah：所以，最终，这并不是“让我对增长业务的作用进行一些理性的论证，或者让我为这个人的简历中的一些问题辩护，这些问题可能是您在我们做出招聘决定时发现的”，而是“哦，你想赢吗？

Oh, we want to grow faster?

哦，我们想成长得更快吗？

Awesome.

太棒了。

This is the way to do it, and that's how we're going to actually become the generational company we want to be." Again, a reframing in this case around, yeah, we might disagree or squabble about certain things at a detail level, but I understand what we all came here to do and let's focus on that and how this is a part of that versus just focusing on maybe the means to an end versus the end itself, and the end always brings a lot of clarity in my experience.

这就是实现这一目标的方法，这就是我们真正成为我们想要成为的一代公司的方法。”再次，在这种情况下，我们可能会在细节层面上对某些事情产生分歧或争吵，但我理解我们大家来这里是为了做什么，让我们关注这一点，以及这是其中的一部分，而不是仅仅关注达到目的的手段与目的本身，而结局总是会给我的经验带来很多清晰度。

Lenny: What's cool about both these examples, and another guest touched on this, when you're trying to influence the CEO or the founder, coming back to your working backwards concept, you almost want to work backwards from what are they excited about, how do they see the world, what's important to them, and then pitch it that way.

莱尼：这两个例子有什么很酷的，另一位嘉宾也谈到了这一点，当你试图影响首席执行官或创始人时，回到你的逆向工作概念，你几乎想要从他们对什么感到兴奋，他们如何看待世界，什么对他们来说重要，然后以这种方式进行推销。

So, in the first example, I imagine they were pitching to Brian and he's like, "Yeah, drip design, that sounds like something Brian would love." Then in the second example, "Yeah, we're going to win.

所以，在第一个例子中，我想象他们正在向布莱恩推销，他说，“是的，滴水设计，这听起来像是布莱恩会喜欢的。”然后在第二个例子中，“是的，我们会赢。

Here's how we win." So, that's a really interesting takeaway there.

这就是我们获胜的方式。”所以，这是一个非常有趣的收获。

Jason Shah: I mean, I think we all forget that we're all just humans, and at the end of the day, we all are busy, et cetera.

杰森·沙阿：我的意思是，我认为我们都忘记了我们都只是人类，而归根结底，我们都很忙，等等。

It reminds me of a lot of sales, right?

这让我想起了很多销售，对吧？

I was very unsuccessful when I was trying to do outbound sales in the early days of my last startup do.com because I didn't understand this.

在我上一家创业公司 do.com 的早期，当我尝试做对外销售时，我非常不成功，因为我不明白这一点。

I'm a product person.

我是一个产品人。

I'm not a sales person.

我不是销售人员。

I didn't listen to what people cared about.

我没有听人们关心的事情。

I didn't kind of work backwards from what a CRO or head of people that we might have been selling to cared about.

我并没有从我们可能关心的销售对象的 CRO 或负责人的角度进行逆向工作。

I was just about features and here's what we can do for you and this and that.

我只是讨论功能，这就是我们可以为您做的事情。

But all they cared about were one or two things, right?

但他们关心的只是一两件事，对吗？

Maybe the CRO's growing revenue.

也许是 CRO 的收入不断增长。

Maybe the head of peoples worried about culture or scaling their talent organization, and we were nowhere near that list.

也许人们的领导担心文化或扩大他们的人才组织，而我们离这个名单还很远。

Jason Shah: And so, I think it's similar for CEOs, and there's a huge disconnect when say a PM walks into a meeting with the CEO and they're talking about something that CEO is 10 miles away from thinking about, and certainly even the mindset that they're bringing to the conversation is totally different.

Jason Shah：所以，我认为这对于首席执行官来说是类似的，当一位产品经理走进与首席执行官的会议时，他们谈论的事情与首席执行官的想法相差十英里，当然，甚至他们在谈话中所带来的心态也完全不同，这之间存在巨大的脱节。

I think Casey made a lot of great points about this in the recent podcast as well.

我认为凯西在最近的播客中也对此提出了很多重要观点。

Lenny: Sweet.

莱尼：甜甜的。

Casey Winters, podcast plug.

凯西·温特斯，播客插件。

Okay, so something else that you're really good at is you don't kind of focus career-wise on working your way up the ladder and being like the top PM, and you seem to be really good at kind of following with what's interesting to you and your interest and your curiosity.

好吧，你真正擅长的另一件事是，你不会在职业生涯中专注于如何晋升并成为顶级产品经理，而你似乎真的很擅长关注你感兴趣的事情、你的兴趣和好奇心。

Is there something that you've learned there, something you could share for folks that are just like, "Oh my gosh, should I just keep in with this job and work my way up?

是否有一些你在那里学到的东西，一些你可以分享给那些“天哪，我应该继续做这份工作并努力向上吗？”的人的东西。

Should I try something new?" What have you learned about that sort of thinking?

我应该尝试一些新的东西吗？”从这种想法中你学到了什么？

Jason Shah: There's the framework I like is ladder versus map, and I think that you can be either person that any point in your life.

Jason Shah：我喜欢的框架是梯子与地图，我认为你可以成为人生中任何一个阶段的人。

Sometimes there's a bit of a set mindset that somebody might have one way or another, but I like ladder versus map.

有时会有一些固定的心态，某人可能会有这样或那样的方式，但我喜欢梯子而不是地图。

Ladder is about moving up.

阶梯就是向上移动。

It's more influence, more power, a higher title, things like this, whereas map is I just want to go wherever's interesting, right?

它是更大的影响力，更大的权力，更高的头衔，诸如此类的东西，而地图是我只想去任何有趣的地方，对吧？

I literally think of it, I think of my career very similar to travel.

我确实这么认为，我认为我的职业与旅行非常相似。

I want to go to Greece.

我想去希腊。

I want to be hungry, walking around in India, sweating in a hundred degree weather.

我想饿着肚子，在印度走来走去，在一百度的天气里流汗。

I want to go to Australia and kind of get locked out of my hotel and see what that's like.

我想去澳大利亚，然后被锁在酒店外面，看看那是什么样子。

Jason Shah: I'm okay with discomfort because it's interesting.

Jason Shah：我可以接受不适，因为这很有趣。

Sometimes, for better or worse, maybe this is a privilege, it's certainly a privileged thing to say, but I care more about living a really interesting life than let's say a good or comfortable life.

有时，无论好坏，也许这是一种特权，这确实是一种特权，但我更关心过一种真正有趣的生活，而不是好的或舒适的生活。

I think that's where the growth comes from.

我认为这就是增长的来源。

That's where the stories come from.

这就是故事的来源。

That's to me the things that I'll remember the most.

对我来说，这是我最难忘的事情。

Jason Shah: And so, when I think about product and I'm on my deathbed, I'm going to care about the products I built and how they affected people.

Jason Shah：所以，当我在临终之际想到产品时，我会关心我开发的产品以及它们如何影响人们。

Nobody's really going to be looking at my LinkedIn, hopefully for their sake and mine, at my funeral.

在我的葬礼上，没有人会真正查看我的 LinkedIn，希望是为了他们和我自己。

Sorry, it's a very morbid analogy, but I think thinking of the future provides a lot of clarity about what am I going to care about a long time from now, and I think that applies to all facets of life.

抱歉，这是一个非常病态的类比，但我认为对未来的思考可以让我更清楚地了解从现在起很长一段时间内我将关心什么，而且我认为这适用于生活的各个方面。

That's how I thought about my life partner.

这就是我对我的人生伴侣的看法。

That's how I think about my career.

这就是我对我职业生涯的看法。

That's how I think about where I want to live, San Francisco.

这就是我对我想要居住的地方——旧金山的看法。

San Francisco, a lot of people like to talk negatively about it, but I believe in the community.

在旧金山，很多人喜欢负面谈论它，但我相信这个社区。

I believe in the place I'm interested in the long term, even if you know the short term it has some challenges to it.

我相信我对长期感兴趣的地方，即使你知道短期它会面临一些挑战。

Jason Shah: So, I personally believe really strongly in this kind of ladder versus map distinction, and I think a lot of people are very intentional in the micro.

Jason Shah：所以，我个人非常相信这种天梯与地图的区别，而且我认为很多人在微观上都是有意为之的。

They think about their next job, their next title, how much salary and equity there is.

他们考虑下一份工作、下一个头衔、薪水和股权有多少。

In good ways too, they think about the team that they're going to work on next with, but they're very unintentional about the macro.

从好的方面来说，他们会考虑接下来要合作的团队，但他们对宏观的考虑却非常无意。

What's the big picture?

大局是什么？

What do I care about as an individual?

作为个人我关心什么？

There's not a lot of classes for that.

没有太多的课程可以做到这一点。

There's not a lot of blog posts in the product management field about the touchy-feely side of this, and who are you as a person, where do you get energy from.

在产品管理领域，关于这个敏感的一面，以及你是谁，你从哪里获得能量的博客文章并不多。

So, for me, I found that really clarifying and it makes career decisions that have seemed risky to other people seem inevitable to me.

所以，对我来说，我发现真正澄清了，它使得在其他人看来有风险的职业决定对我来说似乎是不可避免的。

Lenny: Is there a story of or example of how you use this approach to make a decision at where you end up going, and/or or is there something that you maybe regret or are really happy with in terms of the kind of the fork in the road, looking back, using this way of thinking?

莱尼：有没有一个故事或例子可以说明你如何使用这种方法来决定你最终要去哪里，和/或有什么事情是你可能后悔或真正满意的，在岔路口，回顾过去，使用这种思维方式？

Jason Shah: A few concrete examples, actually.

Jason Shah：实际上，有一些具体的例子。

I'll keep them brief though.

不过我会让它们保持简短。

One is when I first moved to San Francisco, and I had mentioned I did a small sale of that education company, and I could have done a lot of more productive things with my career in the short term.

一个是当我第一次搬到旧金山时，我曾提到我对那家教育公司做了小额出售，我本可以在短期内用我的职业生涯做很多更有成效的事情。

I had all my peers from college who had gone off to their great jobs at Google or whatever.

我的所有大学同学都已经去谷歌或其他地方找到了自己的好工作。

I said, "I'm looking to move to San Francisco and work at my dining table, and I have a little bit of savings from this, so why not?

我说：“我想搬到旧金山，在我的餐桌上工作，而且我可以从中节省一点钱，所以为什么不呢？

Let's see.

让我们看看。

It's going to be super interesting." I mean, it was also very boring at times, and so, I didn't want a lot on the sort of micro level, but I built five or six products.

这将会非常有趣。”我的意思是，有时也很无聊，所以，我不想在微观层面上做太多事情，但我制作了五六个产品。

I became much better at programming as a result.

结果我在编程方面变得更好了。

Jason Shah: I remember one time, it's kind of a goofy story, but I was working at my dining table, and I saw Ron Conway on the street.

杰森·沙阿：我记得有一次，这是一个愚蠢的故事，但我正在餐桌上工作，我在街上看到了罗恩·康威。

I was disheveled because I was just working from my apartment and I wanted to go pitch Ron Conway on this terrible idea for a startup, and so went out there, and maybe it was fortunate to not shove me to the side, and he listened to me for a minute and then I emailed him after.

我当时很困惑，因为我只是在公寓里工作，我想向罗恩·康威推销这个糟糕的创业想法，所以就出去了，也许很幸运没有把我推到一边，他听了我一分钟，然后我给他发了电子邮件。

These are random things that happen that over time I think make us who we are.

这些都是随机发生的事情，随着时间的推移，我认为这些事情造就了我们。

Are you the sort of person who's going to hustle and do that?

你是那种会努力去做这件事的人吗？

When I was building that education company, I went and put flyers in people's cars in various high schools, and I was trying to get things started, and coming back to leadership, that would be below most people.

当我建立那家教育公司时，我去各个高中的人们的车里放了传单，我试图让事情开始，然后回到领导地位，这将低于大多数人。

It's like, "Wait, you own a company and you're sticking flyers in people's windshields?" It was like, "What's wrong with you?"

就像，“等等，你拥有一家公司，你却在人们的挡风玻璃上贴传单？”就像是，“你怎么了？”

Jason Shah: So, anyway, I think that was an example of time where it was like, "Okay, if I'm on the ladder," I'm like, "I got to get the best entry-level job or whatever." Even if I had been an entrepreneur before that, I would've thought about my structure in my career, and I was more like, "This is going to be interesting.

Jason Shah：所以，无论如何，我认为这是一个例子，“好吧，如果我在阶梯上，”我想，“我必须得到最好的入门级工作或其他什么。”即使我之前是一名企业家，我也会考虑我的职业生涯结构，我更像是，“这会很有趣。

I'll figure it out.

我会弄清楚的。

I believe in myself enough that I'll figure it out." So, I did that.

我对自己有足够的信心，我会解决这个问题的。”所以，我就这么做了。

Yammer and leaving Yammer was similar where I could have stayed.

Yammer 和离开 Yammer 的情况类似，我本可以留在那里。

My equity was finally worth something.

我的股权终于值钱了。

I could have learned a lot even I'm sure from the Microsoft structure, but I was bored and I had been talking to a couple angel investors who were willing to put money into whatever the thing was going to be, and I felt like raising money's actually going to be really hard for me.

即使我确信从微软的结构中我可以学到很多东西，但我很无聊，我一直在和几个天使投资者交谈，他们愿意把钱投入到任何事情上，我觉得筹集资金对我来说实际上真的很难。

This is going to make my life a lot easier and I can focus on product and so on and so forth.

这将使我的生活变得更加轻松，我可以专注于产品等等。

Jason Shah: That was a really hard four years.

Jason Shah：那是非常艰难的四年。

Things like an M&A offer falling through the day before your wedding, or chewing glass and submitting to the Apple iStore and being a featured app and then resubmitting because we wanted to fix a bug, and then actually now it crashes 90% of the time.

比如婚礼前一天的并购提议落空，或者咀嚼玻璃杯并提交到 Apple iStore 并成为特色应用程序，然后因为我们想要修复错误而重新提交，然后实际上现在 90% 的情况下都会崩溃。

It's Memorial Day weekend and you can't get in touch with the Apple business development manager who can help you out to reapprove something.

今天是阵亡将士纪念日周末，您无法联系 Apple 业务开发经理，他可以帮助您重新批准某些内容。

It was a really stressful four years, but using the map analogy, that's like getting lost in Croatia and having to find your way out or getting lost to to your hotel in Australia or getting bitten by a dog in Thailand, which actually did happen to me.

这确实是压力很大的四年，但用地图来比喻，这就像在克罗地亚迷路，必须找到出路，或者迷路到澳大利亚的酒店，或者在泰国被狗咬，这确实发生在我身上。

But these are interesting experiences that I think build characters.

但我认为这些都是有趣的经历，可以塑造角色。

Jason Shah: So, I'll pause there, but I think there are a lot of career decisions I've made.

Jason Shah：所以，我会暂停一下，但我认为我已经做出了很多职业决定。

Do I have regrets?

我有遗憾吗？

At times, for sure because you see what would've happened if you had joined a different company at that time and it would've been like, "Oh, I would've met so many great people.

有时，这是肯定的，因为你会看到如果你当时加入另一家公司会发生什么，它会像，“哦，我会遇到很多伟大的人。

I would've worked on these products.

我会研究这些产品。

I mean, my equity would've been worth more," whatever.

我的意思是，我的股权会更值钱，”无论如何。

But I think you only lived once, and I think that these rare experiences have been very true to me and taught me things that I wouldn't learn otherwise.

但我认为你只活过一次，而且我认为这些罕见的经历对我来说非常真实，并教会了我一些我在其他情况下无法学到的东西。

Lenny: What's really cool about that analogy, ladder versus map, is a lot of times you think you're climbing a ladder and you think it's innately going to be great, and sometimes that ladder falls over and the company doesn't go anywhere and/or the job sucks, your ladder's heading to some terrible place.

莱尼：梯子与地图这个类比的真正酷之处在于，很多时候你认为自己正在爬梯子，并且认为它天生会很棒，但有时梯子会倒塌，公司不会去任何地方和/或工作很糟糕，你的梯子正走向一些可怕的地方。

And what I find in my experience is anytime I try something totally new and take a risk, especially following things that give me energy, and I'm just like, "Let's just take a leap on this thing," in my experience at least, it's always led to better opportunities and much more interesting work.

根据我的经验，我发现每当我尝试一些全新的东西并冒险时，尤其是在那些给我能量的事情之后，我就会想，“让我们在这件事上迈出一步”，至少根据我的经验，它总是会带来更好的机会和更有趣的工作。

And so, it's kind of this get off the ladder to get on a different ladder, and sometimes you think you're on a nice ladder and it's not going to get you anywhere anyway.

所以，这就像是从梯子上下来，然后登上另一个梯子，有时你认为自己在一个很好的梯子上，但无论如何它都不会让你到达任何地方。

So, explore other ladders.

因此，探索其他梯子。

So, I'm kind of picturing a Chutes and Ladders.

所以，我有点想象一个滑道和梯子。

Lenny: There's many ladders and you want to explore the different ladders across the map.

莱尼：有很多梯子，你想探索地图上不同的梯子。

How about that?

怎么样？

Jason Shah: I mean, I think you're totally right, and the only brief thing I would add to the way that you put it which I think captures the essence here is I think we all have a lot of false precision about what we think a given career move is going to lead to or what it's going to be like, and we forget that a lot of career decisions are made out of maybe 10 hours cumulatively talking to a team and getting signals.

Jason Shah：我的意思是，我认为你完全正确，我想补充的唯一一点我认为抓住了本质的简短内容是，我认为我们都对我们认为特定的职业变动将导致什么或它会是什么样子有很多错误的精确性，而且我们忘记了很多职业决策是在与团队累积大约 10 个小时的交谈并获取信号的情况下做出的。

Jason Shah: So, I think that that false precision sometimes gives us comfort in making certain decisions and folds us back from a bolder decision that might be better, but maybe the ladder is just hidden behind some fog if you really want that, and you can get both.

Jason Shah：所以，我认为这种错误的精确性有时会让我们在做出某些决定时感到舒适，并让我们放弃可能更好的更大胆的决定，但如果你真的想要的话，也许梯子只是隐藏在一些迷雾后面，而且你可以两者兼得。

Maybe you can go to the most interesting place in the world, and have the success in life and progress and so on and so forth.

也许你可以去世界上最有趣的地方，并获得人生的成功和进步等等。

It's just that I think a lot of people think it's totally either/or.

只是我认为很多人认为这完全是非此即彼。

They think that they've already figured out the precise outcome that's going to happen, and to your point, the ladder often does fall over.

他们认为他们已经弄清楚了将要发生的确切结果，而就你的观点而言，梯子经常会倒塌。

If that's what all your hopes are pinned on, it's a very fragile career decision I think is really difficult to navigate.

如果这就是你所有的希望，我认为这是一个非常脆弱的职业决定，很难驾驭。

Lenny: The flip side, you also don't want to be bouncing around over and over and over.

莱尼：另一方面，你也不想一遍又一遍地跳来跳去。

As much as I talked about how I shifted and tried new things, I'm a very serial monogamous in terms of work.

尽管我谈到了我如何转变和尝试新事物，但在工作方面我是一个非常连续的一夫一妻制。

My first job, I was there nine years, then a startup for a year and a half, and then Airbnb for seven years, and then what I'm doing now may be forever.

我的第一份工作在那里工作了九年，然后在一家初创公司工作了一年半，然后在 Airbnb 工作了七年，然后我现在所做的事情可能会永远存在。

And so, there's a lot of value to sticking around and kind of seeing things through.

因此，坚持下去并把事情看透是很有价值的。

And so, I guess, I don't know if you'll have an answer to this, but do you have any wisdom on when to stick with it and keep exploring opportunities at a place you're at versus trying something new?

所以，我想，我不知道你是否对此有答案，但是你是否有智慧知道何时坚持下去并在你所在的地方继续探索机会而不是尝试新事物？

Jason Shah: My hope is that there's a balance here in the sense that the map shouldn't give the impression of 180 countries, let's do 180 tech companies and shorten the tenure from two years down to a month, and we've just created a generation of job hoppers which is even easier because we're all on Zoom.

Jason Shah：我希望这里有一个平衡，因为地图不应该给人 180 个国家的印象，让我们做 180 家科技公司，并将任期从两年缩短到一个月，我们刚刚创造了一代跳槽者，这更容易，因为我们都在 Zoom 上。

It's a good point and I really respect people like you who have stuck it out through the ups and the downs and somebody sees seven years on paper, but I mean, seven years, I don't know.

这是一个很好的观点，我真的很尊重像你这样经历了风风雨雨的人，有人在纸上看到了七年，但我的意思是，七年，我不知道。

How many chapters of Airbnb, how many crises moments?

Airbnb有多少章节，有多少危机时刻？

Jason Shah: There you go.

杰森·沙阿：就这样。

So, I think there's a balance, right?

所以，我认为这是一个平衡，对吗？

For example, I want to be in Web3 for more than a decade.

例如，我想在Web3领域工作十多年。

I want to stay at Alchemy for a very long time and help build the company.

我想在 Alchemy 呆很长一段时间，帮助建立公司。

So, I guess when I think of map, maybe an important way to think about it is maybe when somebody is 50 or 60 or 70 and they might choose to stop working, a lot of people when they start their career actually have 30 years to play with or 40 years or 50 if they're lucky.

所以，我想，当我想到地图时，也许一个重要的思考方式是，当有人50岁、60岁或70岁时，他们可能会选择停止工作，很多人在开始职业生涯时实际上有30年的时间可以玩，或者40年或50年（如果幸运的话）。

That's a lot of chips you can play.

您可以玩很多筹码。

You could do five, 10 year rounds, right?

你可以做五年、十年，对吗？

And so, I think that in terms of sticking it out, maybe I'm biased, I think that some of the absolute sort gems, if you will, in Silicon Valley and tech are the teammates that are willing to stay around for 4, 5, 6, 7 years, and they have institutional knowledge that nobody has.

所以，我认为，就坚持下去而言，也许我有偏见，我认为，如果你愿意的话，在硅谷和科技界，一些绝对的宝石是那些愿意在公司呆上 4 年、5 年、6 年、7 年的队友，他们拥有没人拥有的机构知识。

They have a positive impact on the culture that is impossible if there's constant employee turnover.

它们对文化产生积极影响，如果员工不断流动，这是不可能的。

Jason Shah: So, to me, I think that you could simultaneously be somebody who's committed to companies, stays for a very meaningful amount of time, but zooms out and looks at their career.

贾森·沙阿：所以，对我来说，我认为你可以同时成为一个致力于公司的人，在公司呆上一段非常有意义的时间，但同时又要放低视野并审视自己的职业生涯。

Actually, I think maybe this was even more, right?

事实上，我想也许这更多，对吧？

You're now a famous podcaster.

您现在是一位著名的播客。

You were a successful startup founder.

您是一位成功的初创公司创始人。

You were a product leader.

您是产品负责人。

All these things form a map and I think a really interesting career and life, frankly, that's pretty full with a lot of really interesting milestones and learnings and networks and people that you get to interact with.

所有这些东西形成了一张地图，我认为这是一个非常有趣的职业和生活，坦率地说，这充满了很多非常有趣的里程碑、学习、网络和你可以与之互动的人。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

To your point about how long a career is, when I thought about it recently, this is my fourth career.

对于你所说的职业生涯有多长，我最近想来，这是我的第四个职业生涯。

First it was an engineer, then it was a founder, then a product manager when I got to Airbnb, and now this weird thing that I do, and there's so much time to explore and try new things.

首先是一名工程师，然后是一名创始人，然后是我加入 Airbnb 时的产品经理，现在我做的这件事很奇怪，而且有很多时间去探索和尝试新事物。

I will say though, I feel like the early things you do seem really important.

但我会说，我觉得你早期所做的事情似乎非常重要。

Airbnb for me was not early, so maybe I'm wrong, but it feels like you want to work at a company where people look at that on your resume and are like, "Oh, okay, this person's probably good." So, I feel like there's that piece you got to get right at some point.

Airbnb 对我来说并不早，所以也许我错了，但感觉就像你想要在一家公司工作，人们会在你的简历上看到这些内容，然后说：“哦，好吧，这个人可能不错。”所以，我觉得你必须在某个时候把这件事做好。

Jason Shah: Yeah, I totally agree with that.

Jason Shah：是的，我完全同意这一点。

For example, I think for let's say a new grad who's thinking about a product career, and let's say on the spectrum there is maybe Goldman Sachs because that's what a lot of people are doing.

例如，我认为，假设一个正在考虑产品职业的应届毕业生，假设在这个范围内可能有高盛，因为这就是很多人正在做的事情。

They're like, "Yeah, I want to do product, but I also feel like I need this gold star or whatever." And then in between is you could join a hypergrowth company of some sort where they definitely have good product people you can learn from, but definitely still room for you to do more than what a very junior person would be assigned to be doing.

他们就像，“是的，我想做产品，但我也觉得我需要这个金星或其他什么。”然后，在这两者之间，你可以加入某种高速增长的公司，他们肯定有优秀的产品人员可以向你学习，但绝对还有空间让你做比分配给非常初级的人做的更多的事情。

And then on the other end of the spectrum is I'm going to have no job, I'm just going to completely bounce around from my own projects or just work with a new startup every two months.

另一方面，我将没有工作，我将完全从自己的项目中恢复过来，或者每两个月就与一家新的初创公司合作。

Jason Shah: Personally in that spectrum, I tend to be more towards the middle of that where build a track record, build a network.

Jason Shah：就我个人而言，我更倾向于中间的方向，即建立业绩记录、建立网络。

I mean, it's crazy.

我的意思是，这太疯狂了。

Even just this week, next week I'm seeing maybe five people that I know from my Yammer days, and to your point on formative nature, some of those people, that's how I learned how to do product.

就在本周、下周，我可能会见到五个我在 Yammer 时代认识的人，就你关于形成性的观点而言，其中一些人就是我学习如何做产品的方式。

That's how I learned things like AB testing.

这就是我学习AB测试之类的东西的方式。

It's how I had the first angel investors in my next company.

这就是我在我的下一家公司中拥有第一批天使投资人的方式。

That's how I hire.

我就是这样招聘的。

I still hire people, maybe much to their chagrin, they still get LinkedIn messages for me trying to push them for the next thing.

我仍然雇用员工，也许让他们很懊恼的是，他们仍然收到 LinkedIn 的消息，我试图推动他们去做下一件事。

Jason Shah: So, I totally agree that those early days are really formative, and there's maybe a balance between nobody wants to be a job hopper, but at the same time maybe there's ways to also not just be a career person who spends kind of 30 years working up the ladder or is fixated on I need to be CPO but is willing to give up a director title to go be a hustler at some startup because they really believe in it and they want to take a bet or risk in their career.

Jason Shah：所以，我完全同意，那些早期的日子真的很重要，也许没有人想跳槽，但同时也许有办法让自己不只是成为一个花了 30 年的时间在阶梯上工作的职业人士，或者专注于我需要成为首席产品官，但愿意放弃董事头衔，去某个初创公司当骗子，因为他们真的相信这一点，他们想在自己的职业生涯中冒险。

Lenny: You touched on hiring, and that's something I wanted to ask you.

莱尼：你提到了招聘问题，这也是我想问你的问题。

So, you're in my Talent Collective.

所以，你就在我的人才集体里了。

You're a company that's hiring, Alchemy, and I was looking at the stats recently, and you're one of the most successful companies at getting candidates to talk to you, and generally I think you're just really good at hiring.

你们是一家正在招聘的公司，Alchemy，我最近在查看统计数据，你们是最成功地让候选人与你们交谈的公司之一，总的来说，我认为你们非常擅长招聘。

So, I'm curious what you can share with folks about hiring.

所以，我很好奇你能与人们分享有关招聘的什么内容。

Jason Shah: I appreciate that, and I get a lot of value out of meeting some really talented people from the Collective.

Jason Shah：我对此表示赞赏，并且从与集体中一些真正有才华的人会面中我获得了很多价值。

I think hiring, it's funny, it reminds me of sort of push back in a sense of what you call it has such an impact on how people think about it.

我认为招聘很有趣，它让我想起了某种你所谓的逆流，它对人们的看法产生了如此大的影响。

It's hiring, recruiting, but if people reframe it as the people you are going to work with every day or the people who make the company what it is, it shifts the mindset.

这是招聘，招聘，但如果人们将其重新定义为每天要与之共事的人，或者使公司成为现在这样的人，那么思维方式就会改变。

It's like how is that not the most important thing to be thinking about as a leader or as a founder.

这就好像这不是作为领导者或创始人要考虑的最重要的事情。

A lot of people have benchmarks.

很多人都有基准。

I think maybe on the Google podcast I talk about 30%, 40% of a founder's time maybe spent on recruiting because I think deep down everybody understands that that's incredibly valuable.

我想也许在 Google 播客上我谈到创始人 30%、40% 的时间可能花在招聘上，因为我认为每个人内心深处都明白这非常有价值。

Jason Shah: I think that for me personally, I was reflecting ahead of the podcast on how I approach things now after different stages of hiring, and for context, for what it's worth, I've been at the zero person startup.

Jason Shah：我认为就我个人而言，我在播客之前反思了在招聘的不同阶段之后我现在如何处理事情，并且就背景而言，就其价值而言，我一直在零人初创公司。

It's just me and I'm trying to convince some Google engineer to come join us which is incredibly hard and has a low hit rate, to a place like Amazon or Airbnb where you have a large world-class recruiting organization that is effectively doing sourcing for you and setting up interviews and such things like this, and there's formal calibrations and interview panels, to a place like Alchemy where it's very sort of scrappy.

只有我和我正试图说服一些谷歌工程师加入我们，这是非常困难的，而且命中率很低，去像亚马逊或 Airbnb 这样的地方，在那里你有一个大型的世界级招聘组织，可以有效地为你进行采购并安排面试之类的事情，并且有正式的校准和面试小组，而像 Alchemy 这样的地方非常斗志旺盛。

We need to figure out who we even want to hire.

我们需要弄清楚我们想要雇用谁。

The founders still meet with every candidate.

创始人仍然会见每一位候选人。

It's a really different environment.

这是一个非常不同的环境。

Jason Shah: So, this is kind of the spectrum that I've seen, and I was reflecting what do I think works the best, and I like to think of it in very similar motions to a business where I think there is a marketing aspect to it, there was a sales aspect, and there is a product aspect to it.

Jason Shah：所以，这是我所看到的范围，我正在反映我认为最有效的方法，我喜欢以与企业非常相似的方式来思考它，我认为它有营销方面，有销售方面，还有产品方面。

What I mean by that is that on a marketing level, I think what has a person heard about your company.

我的意思是，在营销层面上，我认为人们听说过你的公司。

Do they know anybody who works there?

他们认识在那里工作的人吗？

Do they read your LinkedIn post about things and already know that you're a known quantity before they even step in the door to interview?

他们是否在踏入面试之门之前就已经阅读了您在 LinkedIn 上发布的相关帖子，并且已经知道您是知名人士了？

Are they even willing to interview based on what they know about the company?

根据他们对公司的了解，他们是否愿意接受面试？

And so, I think that the marketing aspect in it, and I mean it's sort of lower case marketing in this sense of course because I think a hard sell of any sort or anything that's not authentic is probably going to fail ultimately, but it's about developing a really positive kind of brand and reputation for a company but also as an individual.

所以，我认为其中的营销方面，我的意思是，从这个意义上来说，这当然是一种小写营销，因为我认为任何形式的强行推销或任何不真实的东西可能最终都会失败，但它是为了为公司和个人发展一种真正积极的品牌和声誉。

Jason Shah: And then if you pass that threshold, I feel like there's a sort of a sales process, and we were talking about how bad of a salesperson I am, for example, because I didn't listen to people's pain points and understand the one or two things that were most important to them.

Jason Shah：然后，如果你超过了这个门槛，我觉得有一种销售流程，例如，我们正在谈论我是一个多么糟糕的销售人员，因为我没有倾听人们的痛点，也没有理解对他们来说最重要的一两件事。

I think similarly in this context, if they're an engineer, do they want to work in a world-class engineering organization?

我认为在这种情况下，如果他们是一名工程师，他们是否想在世界一流的工程组织中工作？

If they're a product person or they're just really excited about crypto and they want to find a way in, a place like Alchemy's the best place for them to learn that is how to think about it, and it's not about misdirecting on or matching whatever they say, but it's about really understanding who they are and what motivates them and what they're excited about because I'm as concerned about the kind of post-hiring step as I am the pre-hiring and want them to work out and be happy and be effective.

如果他们是一名产品人员，或者他们只是对加密技术感到非常兴奋，并且想要找到一种方法，那么像 Alchemy 这样的地方是他们学习如何思考的最佳场所，这不是误导或匹配他们所说的任何内容，而是真正了解他们是谁、他们的动机是什么以及他们对什么感到兴奋，因为我和预聘人员一样关心聘后步骤，并希望他们能够解决问题快乐并高效。

Jason Shah: And then lastly, I think there's a product angle to it that not a lot of people think about or talk about a lot because I think the product, it's one of those rare cases where job descriptions are almost like product specs, right?

Jason Shah：最后，我认为有一个产品角度，没有很多人思考或谈论很多，因为我认为产品是工作描述几乎像产品规格的罕见情况之一，对吧？

They're here's what the responsibilities are, here's what we need you to do, here's the qualifications we're looking for.

这就是您的职责，这就是我们需要您做的事情，这就是我们正在寻找的资格。

And what's really funny about that is that product is very iterative, but somehow we just write a job description, and then it's bait, it's done, it's posted, and nobody thinks about it again until the person's hired and then they take it down.

真正有趣的是，产品是非常迭代的，但不知何故，我们只是写了一份工作描述，然后它就是诱饵，完成了，发布了，没有人再考虑它，直到这个人被雇用，然后他们把它拿下来。

Jason Shah: I think taking a product mindset where I meet people all the time now where I don't really know exactly what role they're necessarily going to fill, I'm not really sure about exactly their seniority, maybe they don't have a lot of experience, but maybe they would just totally be a rockstar on our product team.

Jason Shah：我认为采用产品思维方式，我现在经常遇到人们，我真的不知道他们必须扮演什么角色，我不太确定他们的资历，也许他们没有很多经验，但也许他们完全会成为我们产品团队中的摇滚明星。

And looking at a product that we can mold flexibly and think of the same way if at Airbnb, if we were going to build Airbnb Plus, if we just kind of came back to the Amazon working backwards and just wrote a document and it was over, that's one thing, but we didn't do that, right?

看看我们可以灵活塑造的产品，并以同样的方式思考，如果在 Airbnb，如果我们要构建 Airbnb Plus，如果我们只是回到亚马逊，写一份文档，然后就结束了，那是一回事，但我们没有这样做，对吧？

We went and actually built rooms and homes that were supposed to be Airbnb Plus, and then we iterate on it and we changed the pillows and we changed the entrance and we changed the scent that you feel when you walk in.

我们实际上建造了应该是 Airbnb Plus 的房间和房屋，然后我们迭代它，我们更换了枕头，我们改变了入口，我们改变了你走进去时感受到的气味。

We coach host and learned about that.

我们指导主持人并了解了这一点。

Jason Shah: So, I think a product mindset on hiring and iterating on it based on the candidates you're meeting, the needs of the business.

Jason Shah：所以，我认为招聘和迭代的产品思维是基于你遇到的候选人和业务的需求。

So this kind of marketing, sales, product combination has been what I've found to be really effective at getting people excited, understanding who they are and what they need, and then crafting a role that actually makes the person successful, rather than just checks a box in your recruiting software as some new headcount that was hired.

因此，我发现这种营销、销售、产品组合非常有效地让人们感到兴奋，了解他们是谁以及他们需要什么，然后设计一个真正使人成功的角色，而不是仅仅在招聘软件中勾选一个框作为雇用一些新员工。

Lenny: One last question before we get to our lightning round.

莱尼：在我们进入闪电回合之前还有最后一个问题。

For PMs that are listening to this maybe early in their career, what skill have you found to be most important in helping you and helping PMs in general advance in their career?

对于可能在职业生涯早期听到此内容的 PM，您发现什么技能对于帮助您和帮助 PM 在职业生涯中取得总体进步最重要？

Jason Shah: Yeah, this is a really important question, like the others, but I think that understanding and defining what problem matters is the most important skill that I think I've taken away, and it applies to so many things.

Jason Shah：是的，和其他问题一样，这是一个非常重要的问题，但我认为理解和定义重要的问题是我认为我已经学到的最重要的技能，它适用于很多事情。

It can apply to a specific product we're building.

它可以应用于我们正在构建的特定产品。

It can apply to what a company's mission is.

它可以应用于公司的使命。

I think I've found it really effective because it affects pretty much everything.

我认为我发现它非常有效，因为它几乎影响到一切。

It affects what we're going to build.

它会影响我们要构建的内容。

It affects is the team motivated by what we're doing.

它影响的是我们正在做的事情所激励的团队。

So, specifically for example, at a place like Alchemy where, yeah, we're a developer platform, but should we build an SDK so there's abstraction that is easier for developers to use?

所以，具体来说，例如，在像 Alchemy 这样的地方，是的，我们是一个开发人员平台，但我们是否应该构建一个 SDK，以便开发人员更容易使用抽象？

Should we build an NFT API because we think that's a really important stack to move into and an important use case to support?

我们是否应该构建一个 NFT API，因为我们认为这是一个非常重要的堆栈，并且是一个需要支持的重要用例？

Jason Shah: Well, the question is what problem are we solving?

Jason Shah：嗯，问题是我们要解决什么问题？

It's not this versus that just in a vacuum.

这并不是真空中的这个与那个。

It's is the problem developer experienced and we want to make things easier to develop.

这是开发人员遇到的问题，我们希望让开发变得更容易。

Is the problem that an NFT marketplace, a whole suite of them are trying to grow and need more support from us, and not understanding these problems clearly?

问题是，整个 NFT 市场正在努力发展，需要我们更多的支持，但却没有清楚地理解这些问题吗？

And it goes back to my first company.

这可以追溯到我的第一家公司。

It was an education company, and the problem was that low-income students didn't have access to the same resources to get into college as other students, and that guided everything.

这是一家教育公司，问题是低收入学生无法获得与其他学生相同的资源进入大学，这指导了一切。

That guided the pricing model which was basically free for a long time, and then we monetize on sponsorships from colleges, right?

这指导了定价模式，在很长一段时间内基本上是免费的，然后我们通过大学的赞助来货币化，对吗？

The problem matter, whereas the problem solve was there's not a...

问题很重要，而问题的解决却没有......

A different problem was there's just no good college readiness program.

另一个问题是没有良好的大学准备计划。

Fine, then you focus manically on the pedagogy and the curriculum and so on and so forth, rather than say the business model and an initial product that you think can work.

好吧，那么你就疯狂地关注教学法和课程等等，而不是说你认为可行的商业模式和初始产品。

Jason Shah: So, that's what I've found to be the most useful, and I can give her other examples if it's helpful, but understanding what problem we're actually trying to solve and really getting crystal clear about it, I think has been incredibly useful to me and energizing as well.

Jason Shah：所以，这就是我发现最有用的，如果有帮助的话我可以给她提供其他例子，但是了解我们实际上试图解决的问题并真正弄清楚它，我认为对我来说非常有用并且也充满活力。

Lenny: It's such a good reminder, even though it's such a cliche of product managers being, "Well, what problem are we trying to solve here?" People hate that, but Michael Paul, and I mentioned this on a different podcast too, he makes this point that when you do drugs sometimes, you have these epiphanies that you come out and you're like, "Love is all you need, man." It's like, okay, yep.

莱尼：这是一个很好的提醒，尽管产品经理的陈词滥调是：“好吧，我们要在这里解决什么问题？”人们讨厌这一点，但是迈克尔·保罗，我也在另一个播客上提到过这一点，他指出，当你有时吸毒时，你会突然顿悟，你会说，“爱就是你所需要的一切，伙计。”就像，好吧，是的。

But it feels so right.

但感觉很对。

You really feel it.

你真的感觉到了。

The reason that it's such a cliche is because people have found it to be so true for so long that it's annoying now, but it also tells you how true it is.

这句话之所以这么陈词滥调，是因为人们长期以来发现它是如此真实，以至于现在很烦人，但它也告诉你它有多么真实。

And so, I think it's a really good reminder of yes, it's annoying to ask that question, and people make fun of PMs for that, but that's because it's so damn important.

所以，我认为这是一个很好的提醒，是的，问这个问题很烦人，人们因此取笑 PM，但那是因为它非常重要。

Jason Shah: Just a brief kind of additional, what you share there, I mean, I completely agree.

Jason Shah：只是简单的补充一下，你在那里分享的内容，我的意思是，我完全同意。

I think it's very true in life, right?

我想这在生活中也是很真实的吧？

It's like, well, what matters?

就像，好吧，什么重要？

And it's like, well, your health, your family, your sense of purpose.

这就像，你的健康、你的家庭、你的使命感。

It's like nobody's unfamiliar with the answer, but like most things, it's about the application of it and about the nuance of it, and I think that's what product is ultimately sort of all about too.

好像没有人不熟悉这个答案，但就像大多数事情一样，它是关于它的应用和它的细微差别，我认为这也是产品最终的意义所在。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Are you ready for our lightning round where I'm just going to ask you five quick questions, tell me what comes to mind and we'll have some fun.

你准备好参加我们的闪电回合了吗？我会问你五个简单的问题，告诉我你想到了什么，我们会玩得很开心。

Does that sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

I think I'm going to start adding music to these things.

我想我要开始为这些东西添加音乐。

I got to figure that out.

我必须弄清楚这一点。

For now, no music.

目前，没有音乐。

Okay.

好的。

What book do you recommend most to other PMs?

您最向其他 PM 推荐哪本书？

Jason Shah: The Hard Thing About Hard things.

Jason Shah：困难中的困难。

Jason Shah: I think it teaches product managers to chew glass and care about outcomes the way that a CEO has to, and I think that's a really useful mindset to have.

Jason Shah：我认为它教会产品经理像首席执行官一样咀嚼玻璃并关心结果，我认为这是一种非常有用的心态。

Lenny: Man, this chew glass metaphor, I don't like the sound of that.

莱尼：伙计，这个咀嚼玻璃的比喻，我不喜欢这个听起来。

Jason Shah: I saw you cringe.

Jason Shah：我看到你畏缩了。

I was a little worried about that.

我对此有点担心。

Lenny: Oh my god.

莱尼：天啊。

What a great job we have here, chewing glass.

我们这里的工作多棒啊，咀嚼玻璃杯。

Okay.

好的。

Other than Alchemy, what's a company you recommend most to PMs to go look for new gigs if they're looking around?

除了 Alchemy 之外，如果 PM 正在四处寻找新工作，您最推荐他们去哪家公司？

Jason Shah: I would suggest Polygon, Salon, or MoonPay.

Jason Shah：我建议 Polygon、Salon 或 MoonPay。

I know it's three, but I wanted to give some breath in the Web3 space that might be exciting to people.

我知道是三个，但我想在 Web3 空间中注入一些活力，这可能会让人们兴奋不已。

Lenny: Great, great choices.

莱尼：很棒，很棒的选择。

What's a favorite TV show or movie that you've recently watched?

您最近观看的最喜欢的电视节目或电影是什么？

Jason Shah: The Ken Burns Vietnam War series.

杰森·沙阿：肯·伯恩斯的越南战争系列。

I'm really into documentaries and history, and it's a really kind of compelling version of history that I've never seen before.

我真的很喜欢纪录片和历史，这是我以前从未见过的非常引人入胜的历史版本。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Love that.

喜欢那个。

Okay.

好的。

Favorite interview question that you like to ask.

您最喜欢问的面试问题。

Jason Shah: What is a risk you regret not taking, why, and what did you learn about yourself?

Jason Shah：您后悔没有冒什么风险，为什么，以及您对自己有什么了解？

Lenny: What do you look for in an answer there?

莱尼：你在那里寻找什么答案？

Jason Shah: I think the biggest thing I look for is a growth mindset, to be able to reflect on an experience like that and be vocally self-critical without unproductively being hard on one's self, and I think that the dimension of asking about risk gets at their psychology and how do they think about not only their career, but if they were to work with me, how would they approach problem solving and taking bets on the business.

Jason Shah：我认为我最需要的是一种成长心态，能够反思这样的经历，能够进行口头自我批评，而不会徒劳地对自己施加压力，我认为询问风险的维度会影响他们的心理，他们不仅会如何看待自己的职业生涯，而且如果他们要和我一起工作，他们将如何解决问题并在业务上押注。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, final question.

好的，最后一个问题。

What's your least favorite vegetable?

你最不喜欢的蔬菜是什么？

Jason Shah: Broccoli.

杰森·沙阿：西兰花。

I just removed some from a pizza last night that I really didn't want to eat.

昨晚我刚从披萨中取出一些我真的不想吃的东西。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

Oh wow, okay.

哦，哇，好吧。

Even like steamed, cook, all the things?

甚至像蒸、煮之类的东西？

Jason Shah: There are no circumstances under which I'm excited about broccoli.

Jason Shah：在任何情况下我都会对西兰花感到兴奋。

Lenny: Oh man, you got to eat those veggies.

莱尼：天哪，你必须吃那些蔬菜。

Lenny: Okay, Jason, this was amazing.

莱尼：好的，杰森，这太棒了。

Lived up to what I was hoping our second episode would be.

没有辜负我对第二集的期望。

Definitely better than our first which we'll leave on the cutting room floor.

绝对比我们的第一个更好，我们将留在剪辑室地板上。

Two last questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can people find you online?

人们在哪里可以在线找到您？

I assume Alchemy's hiring, so maybe pointing people there.

我猜 Alchemy 正在招聘，所以可能会指点那里的人。

And then how can listeners be useful to you?

那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Jason Shah: Yeah, definitely.

杰森·沙阿：是的，当然。

So, if you're interested in Alchemy and Web3, go to alchemy.com and click through to our jobs page from there.

因此，如果您对 Alchemy 和 Web3 感兴趣，请访问 alchemy.com 并从那里点击进入我们的职位页面。

I'm online @0xShah.

我在线@0xShah。

That is my crypto pseudonymous handle and happy to engage with folks there.

这是我的加密假名账号，很高兴与那里的人们互动。

And in terms of being helpful to me, I would love any feedback on anything that came up.

就对我有帮助而言，我希望对出现的任何问题提供任何反馈。

I would love any products that people are working on.

我喜欢人们正在开发的任何产品。

I also invest, and we also partner with a lot of products and teams at Alchemy, and I would love to meet anybody that's listening on the podcast too because I know Lenny's all about community and has kind of given so much back over the years that I would love to meet folks that are out there and get a chance to spend time talking about the products that you're all building.

我也进行投资，我们也与 Alchemy 的许多产品和团队合作，我也很乐意见到任何正在收听播客的人，因为我知道 Lenny 非常关心社区，并且多年来给予了如此多的回报，因此我很乐意见到那里的人们，并有机会花时间谈论你们正在构建的产品。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。