We replaced our sales team with 20 AI agents—here’s what happened next | Jason Lemkin (SaaStr)
Jason Lemkin: Here's the mistake that 99% of founders and sales reps make.
Jason Lemkin：这是 99% 的创始人和销售代表都会犯的错误。
We're not really selling in B2B, we're solving problems.
我们并不是真正在 B2B 中销售，而是在解决问题。
Our job as sales reps in SaaS is to not sell a used car, okay?
作为 SaaS 销售代表，我们的工作不是出售二手车，好吗？
We are selling a Tesla Model 3 performance.
我们正在销售特斯拉 Model 3 性能车。
It has competition, I might not need it this week, but it's pretty darn good.
它有竞争，这周我可能不需要它，但它非常好。
Let me help you get you into that Model 3 performance today.
今天让我帮助您了解 Model 3 的性能。
I've even got a special discount for the end of this month, and let me just help you.
我什至在这个月底得到了特别折扣，让我来帮助你吧。
I've spent four calls answering all your questions and I've explained to you all the things and why the supercharging network is better than the regular one that doesn't really work at the charger near your house.
我已经打了四个电话来回答您的所有问题，并向您解释了所有事情以及为什么超级充电网络比您家附近的充电器无法真正工作的常规网络更好。
I've gone on Google and I've seen there's no charging network near your house.
我在谷歌上查了一下，发现你家附近没有充电网络。
There's only Superchargers.
只有超级充电站。
I got you, don't I?
我找到你了，不是吗？
That's the job of SaaS and sales because we're not selling commodities.
这是 SaaS 和销售的工作，因为我们不销售商品。
Lenny: Today, my guest is Jason Lemkin.
莱尼：今天，我的客人是杰森·莱姆金。
Jason created and runs Saastr, the world's largest community for SaaS and B2B founders.
Jason 创建并运营了全球最大的 SaaS 和 B2B 创始人社区 Saastr。
He also runs two of the biggest town conferences every year, one in the Bay Area, which attracts over 15,000 people, and one in Europe with over 3,000 SaaS executives, founders, and entrepreneurs.
他每年还举办两场最大的城镇会议，一场在湾区，吸引了超过 15,000 人参加，另一场在欧洲，有超过 3,000 名 SaaS 高管、创始人和企业家参加。
Before Saastr, Jason was the CEO and co-founder of EchoSign, which he grew to over 100 million ARR and then sold to Adobe where he ended up as a vice president of their web services business.
在 Saastr 之前，Jason 是 EchoSign 的首席执行官兼联合创始人，该公司的 ARR 增长到超过 1 亿，然后出售给 Adobe，最终担任 Adobe 网络服务业务副总裁。
If you follow Jason on Twitter or LinkedIn, you know how much wisdom he has to share about all aspects of building a successful SaaS business.
如果您在 Twitter 或 LinkedIn 上关注 Jason，您就会知道他在构建成功的 SaaS 业务的各个方面分享了多少智慧。
Lenny: In our conversation, we focus on what I find most product leaders have the least experience in, building a sales team.
莱尼：在我们的谈话中，我们关注的是我发现大多数产品领导者在建立销售团队方面经验最少的问题。
We get very practical and tactical on how long you should wait to hire your first salesperson, what your one to two first hire should look like, why you should actually hire two salespeople, not just one initially, how to comp them, how to interview them, when it's time to hire a VP of sales, how to avoid your salespeople flaming out and burning through all your cash.
我们非常实用和战术性地介绍了您应该等待多长时间来雇用您的第一位销售人员，您的一到两名销售人员应该是什么样子，为什么您实际上应该雇用两名销售人员，而不是一开始就只雇用一个，如何对他们进行补偿，如何面试他们，何时雇用销售副总裁，如何避免您的销售人员爆发并烧光您所有的现金。
We also get into how to make the product and sales relationship healthier, including how to push back on sales and feature requests, why your head of product should be super involved in your sales process, how long you should make your trials, why you should avoid annual contracts, and so much more.
我们还探讨了如何使产品和销售关系更健康，包括如何推迟销售和功能请求、为什么你的产品主管应该超级参与你的销售流程、你应该进行多长时间的试用、为什么你应该避免年度合同等等。
Lenny: Jason also shares advice for running a conference, which I found super interesting.
Lenny：Jason 还分享了举办会议的建议，我觉得这非常有趣。
This episode went long because I just couldn't stop asking Jason questions, but as a result, I'm excited to bring you this incredibly rich episode on building your sales team.
这一集持续了很长的时间，因为我不停地问杰森问题，但因此，我很高兴为您带来这一关于建立销售团队的内容极其丰富的一集。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow this podcast in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢此播客，请不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中订阅并关注此播客。
This helps tremendously and I really appreciate it.
这非常有帮助，我真的很感激。
With that, I bring you Jason Lemkin after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，我为您带来了杰森·莱姆金 (Jason Lemkin)。
Lenny: Let me tell you about CommandBar.
莱尼：让我告诉你有关 CommandBar 的事情。
If you're like me and most users I've built product for, you probably find those little in-product popups really annoying, "Want to take a tour?
如果您像我和我为其构建产品的大多数用户一样，您可能会发现产品中的那些小弹出窗口真的很烦人，“想参观一下吗？
Check out this new feature." These popups are becoming less and less effective since most users don't read what they say, they just want to close them as soon as possible, but every product builder knows that users need help to learn the ins and outs of your product.
看看这个新功能。”这些弹出窗口的效果越来越差，因为大多数用户不会阅读他们所说的内容，他们只是想尽快关闭它们，但每个产品构建者都知道用户需要帮助来了解产品的细节。
We use so many products every day and we can't possibly know the ins and outs of everyone.
我们每天都会使用很多产品，我们不可能了解每个产品的来龙去脉。
CommandBar is an AI-powered toolkit for product, growth, marketing, and customer teams to help users get the most out of your product without annoying them.
CommandBar 是一款由人工智能驱动的工具包，适用于产品、增长、营销和客户团队，可帮助用户充分利用您的产品而不打扰他们。
Lenny: They use AI to get closer to user intent, so they have search and chat products that let users describe what they're trying to do in their own words and then see personalized results like customer walkthroughs or actions.
Lenny：他们使用人工智能来更接近用户意图，因此他们拥有搜索和聊天产品，让用户用自己的话描述他们想要做什么，然后看到个性化结果，例如客户演练或操作。
They do pop-ups too, but their nudges are based on in-product behaviors like confusion or intent classification, which makes them much less annoying and much more impactful.
他们也做弹出窗口，但他们的推动是基于产品内的行为，如混淆或意图分类，这使得它们不那么烦人，而且更有影响力。
This works for web apps, mobile apps, and websites, and they work with industry-leading companies like Gusto, Freshworks, HashiCorp, and LaunchDarkly.
这适用于网络应用程序、移动应用程序和网站，并且他们与 Gusto、Freshworks、HashiCorp 和 LaunchDarkly 等行业领先的公司合作。
Over 15 million end-users have interacted with CommandBar.
超过 1500 万最终用户与 CommandBar 进行过交互。
To try out CommandBar, you can sign up at commandbar.com/lenny and you can unlock an extra 1,000 AI responses per month for any plan.
要试用 CommandBar，您可以在 commandbar.com/lenny 上注册，并且对于任何计划，您每月都可以额外解锁 1,000 个 AI 响应。
That's commandbar.com/lenny.
那是commandbar.com/lenny。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth.
Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速您的成长。
Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Comm, Quora and Modern Treasury trust Vanta to help build scale, manage, and demonstrate their security and compliance programs and get ready for audits in weeks, not months.
Gusto、Comm、Quora 和 Modern Treasury 等数千家快速发展的公司信任 Vanta 帮助扩大规模、管理和展示其安全与合规计划，并在数周（而不是数月）内为审计做好准备。
By offering the most in-demand security and privacy frameworks such as SOC 2, ISO 27001, GDPR, HIPAA, and many more, Vanta helps companies obtain the reports they need to accelerate growth, build efficient compliance processes, mitigate risks to their businesses, and build trust with external stakeholders.
通过提供最受欢迎的安全和隐私框架（例如 SOC 2、ISO 27001、GDPR、HIPAA 等），Vanta 帮助公司获取加速增长、构建高效合规流程、降低业务风险以及与外部利益相关者建立信任所需的报告。
Lenny: Over 5,000 fast-growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2 and these other frameworks.
Lenny：超过 5,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 和其他框架所涉及的高达 90% 的工作。
For a limited time Lenny's podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.
Lenny 的播客听众限时享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。
Go to vanta.com/lenny.
访问vanta.com/lenny。
That's V-A-N-T-A dot com slash Lenny to learn more and to claim your discounts.
这是 V-A-N-T-A . com 斜线 Lenny，了解更多信息并申请折扣。
Get started today.
今天就开始吧。
Jason, thank you so much for being here.
杰森，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Jason Lemkin: Hey, I'm so excited.
杰森·莱姆金：嘿，我太兴奋了。
Long time.
很久。
What's the expression?
表情是什么？
Long time fan, first time dialer or something?
长期粉丝，第一次拨号还是什么？
Jason Lemkin: First time caller, yeah, first time caller.
Jason Lemkin：第一次来电，是的，第一次来电。
Jason Lemkin: I don't know if that exists in 2024 or not, but yeah, that's me.
Jason Lemkin：我不知道 2024 年是否存在，但是是的，那就是我。
So thank you so much for letting me come.
非常感谢您让我来。
Lenny: It's absolutely my pleasure.
莱尼：这绝对是我的荣幸。
I feel like you're the kind of guy that I knew would be on this podcast eventually, and I'm glad that we're finally doing this.
我觉得你就是那种我知道最终会出现在这个播客上的人，我很高兴我们终于这么做了。
I also feel like we can go in so many directions.
我也觉得我们可以朝很多方向发展。
I feel like you have so many insights on so many parts of building a business, especially a B2B business, but I thought it would be most interesting to dive deep into building your sales team, essentially trying to help people figure out how to start their sales team, scale their sales team, and all the elements they go into it.
我觉得您对建立企业的很多方面都有很多见解，尤其是 B2B 业务，但我认为深入研究建立销售团队是最有趣的，本质上是试图帮助人们弄清楚如何组建他们的销售团队、扩大他们的销售团队以及他们所涉及的所有要素。
How does that sound?
听起来怎么样？
Jason Lemkin: I think it's great.
杰森·莱姆金：我认为这很棒。
I think it's an evergreen topic, but I think there's remains a consistent set of confusion, fears around how to build a sales team, and it's evergreen.
我认为这是一个常青的话题，但我认为对于如何建立销售团队仍然存在一系列持续的困惑和恐惧，而且它是常青的。
The tools change and the pace has changed, but the issues, I love to dig into them because we keep making the same mistakes as founders and executives again and again and again.
工具发生了变化，节奏也发生了变化，但问题，我喜欢深入研究它们，因为我们不断地一次又一次地犯与创始人和高管相同的错误。
Lenny: 100% agree.
莱尼：100%同意。
It's such a black box to me.
对我来说这就是一个黑匣子。
Sales, I've never done sales, and I'm always just like, "I have no idea what's going on here." So this is how I learned from folks like you.
销售，我从来没有做过销售，我总是说，“我不知道这里发生了什么。”这就是我向像你们这样的人学习的方式。
You touched on this now.
你现在谈到了这一点。
Now, I wasn't going to get on this, but I think it'd be interesting just this question of, does everyone need a sales team?
现在，我不打算讨论这个问题，但我认为这个问题很有趣，每个人都需要销售团队吗？
Will you need a sales team if you're listening as a founder?
如果您作为创始人倾听，您是否需要销售团队？
Is it simply, if you're a B2B business, you'll need a sales team?
是不是简单地说，如果您是一家 B2B 企业，您就需要一支销售团队？
How should people think about, "Will I need a sales team?"
人们应该如何思考“我需要销售团队吗？”
Jason Lemkin: If you truly build a self-serve product, you can either never have a sales team or Slack defer it or Canva really defer it.
Jason Lemkin：如果你真正构建了一个自助产品，你要么永远不会有销售团队，要么 Slack 推迟它，要么 Canva 真的推迟它。
Canva didn't really build a sales team until they were well north of 500 million in revenue because it's epic self-serve.
Canva 直到收入超过 5 亿美元才真正建立了销售团队，因为它是史诗般的自助服务。
Slack started all self-serve, and by the time they went public, the majority of their revenue was enterprise sales.
Slack 一开始都是自助服务，当他们上市时，他们的大部分收入来自企业销售。
So you can sequence things.
这样你就可以对事情进行排序。
You can have hybrid models like a third of Asana's revenue is still from self-serve, and two-thirds are from a self-serve motion.
你可以采用混合模式，比如 Asana 的三分之一收入仍然来自自助服务，三分之二来自自助服务。
So there's all different hybrid things.
所以有各种不同的混合事物。
Jason Lemkin: The most important thing though I've found is however you get those first 10, 15, 20 customers, be honest, be honest, and if you've talked to them as a founder and you know that they need a sales type motion, they need effort to deploy it, they have questions about security, they have questions about competition, they have onboarding requirements, and you say, "Hey, I don't like sales, so I'm going to do a PLG motion," you'll fail.
Jason Lemkin：我发现最重要的事情是，你如何获得前 10、15、20 个客户，说实话，说实话，如果你作为创始人与他们交谈过，你知道他们需要销售类型的动议，他们需要努力部署它，他们对安全有疑问，他们对竞争有疑问，他们有入职要求，然后你说，“嘿，我不喜欢销售，所以我要做一个 PLG 动议，”你会失败的。
Jason Lemkin: One of the things that I've done with so many founders over the years, and it shocks them at first, is your first 10, 15, 50 unaffiliated customers, the ones that find you from the ether, they're the next 50, 100, 200, 1,000, and you can either embrace them or run for them.
Jason Lemkin：这些年来我和很多创始人一起做的一件事，一开始让他们感到震惊，就是你的前 10、15、50 个独立客户，他们是从以太坊中找到你的，他们是接下来的 50、100、200、1,000 个，你可以拥抱他们，也可以跑向他们。
Too many producty founders find that, "Hey, gosh, I'm going to have to do sales," and they exit it.
太多的产品创始人发现，“嘿，天哪，我将不得不做销售”，然后他们就退出了。
They exit it.
他们退出了。
Jason Lemkin: I'll tell you a company I invested in 18 months ago when things were easier, maybe 20 months ago, they were doing 5 million in revenue, growing over 100% with the sales like motion.
Jason Lemkin：我会告诉你我18个月前投资的一家公司，当时事情还比较容易，也许20个月前，他们的收入为500万，随着像motion这样的销售增长超过100%。
Things got harder, things got harder as they did for many of us, and they decided to fire the whole sales team, and now they're doing less than one from 5 million with beloved customers.
事情变得越来越困难，事情变得越来越困难，就像他们对我们许多人所做的那样，他们决定解雇整个销售团队，现在他们为心爱的客户做的工作不到五百万分之一。
If I told you the logos, your jaw would drop.
如果我告诉你这些标志，你的下巴一定会掉下来。
Over 5,000 20 months ago to 1 million today because they fired the sales team because the founders didn't like sales, they thought it was icky, they didn't want to do it, they were tired of doing it.
20 个月前的 5,000 多人到今天的 100 万，因为他们解雇了销售团队，因为创始人不喜欢销售，他们认为这很恶心，他们不想这样做，他们厌倦了这样做。
I can tell you several stories like this.
我可以给你讲几个这样的故事。
Jason Lemkin: So you've got to be honest about the ...
杰森·莱姆金：所以你必须诚实地对待......
Sometimes we get it just right on day zero.
有时我们在零天就得到了正确的结果。
Sometimes we know exactly how our company is going to work or Lenny's podcast is going to work.
有时我们确切地知道我们的公司将如何运作或莱尼的播客将如何运作。
We can predict the future perfectly, but I find in B2B, a lot of times the industry, we end up winning.
我们可以完美地预测未来，但我发现在 B2B 行业，很多时候我们最终会获胜。
The segment of the industry, the type of customer is not what we initially thought and either lean into it and be a success or run from it because sales is icky and risk failure.
该行业的细分市场、客户类型并不是我们最初想象的那样，要么投入其中并取得成功，要么因为销售很糟糕并面临失败的风险而逃离它。
Lenny: When you talk about being honest, what you need to be honest about is that you need sales help to close customers?
莱尼：当你谈到诚实时，你需要诚实的是你需要销售帮助来关闭客户？
Jason Lemkin: Be honest about that.
杰森·莱姆金：说实话。
Just be honest about, yes, the motion that it will take to get those first 10, 15, 20 customers, and if they were able to find you by putting their credit card and no one had to talk to them, then that's your DNA today.
老实说，是的，吸引前 10、15、20 位客户所需的行动，如果他们能够通过输入信用卡找到您，而无需任何人与他们交谈，那么这就是您今天的 DNA。
It doesn't mean you won't go up market later like a Slack or a Canva, but if you can get them all to do that and you never have to talk to them, then get really good at viral loops, get really good at almost B2C type motions, get really good at this kind of stuff and hire growth hackers and do the whole almost B2C-ish motion, which we have at self-serve, but if your first 10 customers come in and say, "You know what, Lenny, I'll pay you $5,000, but you've got to solve this problem I have with online video," that is not a self-serve motion.
这并不意味着你不会像 Slack 或 Canva 那样稍后进入市场，但如果你能让他们全部做到这一点，而且你永远不必与他们交谈，那么你就能真正擅长病毒式循环，真正擅长几乎 B2C 类型的动作，真正擅长这种东西，雇佣增长黑客，完成整个几乎 B2C 风格的动作，我们有自助服务，但如果你的前 10 个客户进来说，“你知道吗，Lenny，我会付给你 5,000 美元，但你必须解决我在在线视频方面遇到的这个问题，”这不是一个自助动议。
It is not a self-serve motion.
这不是一项自助动议。
Jason Lemkin: Even worse, sometimes worse is your first 10 customers, five of them sign up online, but it takes a huge amount of effort for 19 bucks a month, and then five say they'll pay you $5,000 a month.
Jason Lemkin：更糟糕的是，有时更糟糕的是你的前 10 个客户，其中 5 个在网上注册，但每月 19 美元需要付出巨大的努力，然后 5 个说他们每月会付给你 5,000 美元。
Some founders are like, "I'm going to work on the five that pay us 20 bucks a month, not the five that'll pay us $5,000 a year." I find too many folks that don't like sales, too many folks that have not had any life experience in a sales-led environment flee from those customers, and I've never seen that lead to success.
一些创始人会说，“我要为每月支付 20 美元的 5 家公司工作，而不是每年支付 5,000 美元的 5 家公司。”我发现太多不喜欢销售的人，太多在销售主导的环境中没有任何生活经验的人逃离了这些客户，而我从未见过这会带来成功。
We're surprised who our niche is sometimes.
有时我们会惊讶谁是我们的利基市场。
We talk about nailing our niche, but sometimes we're surprised that niche that finds us.
我们谈论确定我们的利基市场，但有时我们对找到我们的利基市场感到惊讶。
Lenny: There's a lot of startups I've invested in that start off product-led growth and quickly realized, "This just isn't working," and many of them move to, "We need to actually hire salespeople and start to go top down."
莱尼：我投资的很多初创公司都是从产品主导型增长开始的，但很快意识到“这行不通”，其中许多公司转向“我们需要真正雇用销售人员并开始自上而下”。
Jason Lemkin: Most companies are a hybrid.
Jason Lemkin：大多数公司都是混合体。
Even there's weird hybrids like there's folks like Mongo and Snowflake.
甚至还有一些奇怪的混合体，比如 Mongo 和 Snowflake。
Mongo has, well, maybe Mongo's much better example, Mongo has a free low end version, and there's open source too.
Mongo 有，也许 Mongo 是更好的例子，Mongo 有一个免费的低端版本，而且也有开源的。
It's a little confusing, and then there's not a lot in the middle, and then there's a lot of big.
有点混乱，然后中间没有很多，然后又很多大的。
There's all different ways to combine a product-led or self-serve motion with sales-led.
有多种不同的方法可以将产品主导或自助服务与销售主导相结合。
Too many founders in the beginning think it's either or.
太多创始人一开始就认为这是非此即彼。
It's not either or.
这不是非此即彼。
Lenny: So I think the big takeaway here is sales is not a question of if you're going to need a sales team, it's a matter of when.
莱尼：所以我认为这里最大的收获是销售不是你是否需要销售团队的问题，而是时间问题。
The Canva example is crazy.
Canva 的例子很疯狂。
Maybe that's the
也许这就是
Jason Lemkin: But they still have one.
杰森·莱姆金：但他们仍然有一个。
But they still have one now.
但他们现在还拥有一张。
Lenny: They still have one.
莱尼：他们还有一个。
I think Notion, I think at 10 million ARRs when they hired their first salesperson.
我认为Notion，当他们雇佣第一个销售人员时，我认为ARR是1000万。
Lenny: So I think the question that leads to is, what is a sign that you should start to hire your first salesperson?
莱尼：所以我认为引出的问题是，什么迹象表明您应该开始雇用第一位销售人员？
Jason Lemkin: Even if you hate sales, even if you think it's icky, even if you don't like it, as a founder you've, 95 times out of 100, you've got to find a way at least to close the first 10 customers yourself.
Jason Lemkin：即使你讨厌销售，即使你认为它很恶心，即使你不喜欢它，作为创始人，100 次中有 95 次，你必须找到一种方法，至少自己关闭前 10 个客户。
You've got to find a way.
你必须找到办法。
We could dig into how to do that if you don't like sales.
如果您不喜欢销售，我们可以深入研究如何做到这一点。
The hack though is that even if you don't like sales, customers love to talk to the CEO.
但问题是，即使你不喜欢销售，客户也喜欢与首席执行官交谈。
The customers love it.
顾客喜欢它。
Here's the other thing, as a founder, you're really good at the product in the market, hopefully even in the early days.
这是另一件事，作为创始人，你真的很擅长市场上的产品，希望即使在早期也是如此。
So what's important is even if you don't know how to do outbound, even if you don't know how to send a cold email, even if you don't how to do any of this stuff, and even if you don't know how to ask for a check, even if you don't know how to open or close, almost all founders are A+ middlers, A+ middlers, A+ middlers.
所以重要的是，即使你不知道如何做出站，即使你不知道如何发送冷邮件，即使你不知道如何做任何这些事情，即使你不知道如何要求支票，即使你不知道如何打开或关闭，几乎所有创始人都是A+中间人，A+中间人，A+中间人。
Before we started, you and I talked about podcasts and content, and immediately it was an A+ conversation.
在我们开始之前，你和我讨论了播客和内容，很快就成为了 A+ 对话。
Maybe you don't know how to close a big sponsor, I'm just making that up, and maybe you don't know how to find one, but once you have someone in your spider web, letting the conversation, you and I just had was A+, and any founder should be there by day one, by day one, and prospects love it.
也许你不知道如何关闭一个大赞助商，我只是在编造，也许你不知道如何找到一个，但是一旦你的蜘蛛网中有人了，让谈话，你和我刚刚进行的对话就是A+，任何创始人都应该在第一天就在那里，在第一天，潜在客户会喜欢它。
Jason Lemkin: If I want to buy CRM, I don't get to talk to Yamini at HubSpot or Marc Benioff, but I get to talk to you and your CRM company.
Jason Lemkin：如果我想购买 CRM，我不会与 HubSpot 的 Yamini 或 Marc Benioff 交谈，但我可以与您和您的 CRM 公司交谈。
It's magical for early adopters.
对于早期采用者来说这很神奇。
So bear in mind, no matter how bad you think you are as a founder, you're pretty good at the middle part of sales.
所以请记住，无论你认为自己作为创始人有多糟糕，你在销售的中间部分都相当擅长。
So find a way to get any prospects, get really good at the middle, and then work up your courage.
因此，找到一种方法来获得任何前景，真正擅长中间，然后鼓起勇气。
Work up your courage, and find how to ask for next steps and money.
鼓起勇气，找到如何寻求下一步行动和金钱的方法。
What would it take, Lenny?
莱尼，需要什么？
How can we get going on Riverside?
我们怎样才能去河滨呢？
What would it take?
需要什么？
We would love to have you.
我们很乐意邀请您。
What would it take to get you going next week?
下周需要做什么才能让你继续前进？
You've got to learn that little motion, but you don't have to learn all the stuff you think is smarmy other than how to go from middle to just ask for how we can get going.
你必须学习那个小动作，但你不必学习所有你认为很聪明的东西，除了如何从中间开始询问我们如何才能开始。
Lenny: I like this term, middlers.
莱尼：我喜欢这个词，中间人。
So just to make sure I understand what that means, in the middle of the conversation, you're not great at initiating, you're not great at closing, but you could talk about it.
因此，为了确保我理解这意味着什么，在谈话过程中，你不擅长开始，也不擅长结束，但你可以谈论它。
Jason Lemkin: Yeah, and this is where sales reps are terrible.
杰森·莱姆金：是的，这就是销售代表糟糕的地方。
Most sales reps, once you go beyond the five basic questions, they can't tell you how a database works or how to eliminate hallucinations from your product or how to do payroll in Eastern Southern Guam.
大多数销售代表，一旦您超出了五个基本问题，他们就无法告诉您数据库如何工作或如何消除产品中的幻觉或如何在关岛东南部进行工资单。
The sales rep, and we can talk about this, they need help.
销售代表，我们可以谈谈这个，他们需要帮助。
They need help from the founders in the early days.
他们在早期需要创始人的帮助。
They need help from sales engineers or product people, which is my favorite place to get the help as you scale, but they need help.
他们需要销售工程师或产品人员的帮助，这是我在扩展时最喜欢获得帮助的地方，但他们需要帮助。
Jason Lemkin: The beauty to founders is they don't need help in the middle.
Jason Lemkin：创始人的美妙之处在于他们不需要中间的帮助。
You can be 10 times better in the middle than any sales rep at your bigger competitor.
你在中间的表现可能比你更大的竞争对手的任何销售代表都要好 10 倍。
If you're running, I am just making up CRM, but if you're running a new CRM startup, you can run circles around 98% of the sales reps at Salesforce or HubSpot.
如果你正在运营，我只是在编造 CRM，但如果你正在运营一家新的 CRM 初创公司，你可以围绕 Salesforce 或 HubSpot 98% 的销售代表进行管理。
They have the brand, they have the partners, they have the integrations, but they cannot answer the questions you can answer.
他们有品牌、有合作伙伴、有整合，但他们无法回答你可以回答的问题。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
So you close the first 10 customers.
所以你关闭了前 10 个客户。
What are other signs that, "Okay.
还有什么其他迹象表明“好吧。
Now is really the time we need to start hiring sales"?
现在真的是我们需要开始招聘销售人员的时候了吗？”
Jason Lemkin: I think as soon as you've got those 10 customers and more than 20% of your time is booked up with customers, you need leverage.
Jason Lemkin：我认为，一旦你拥有了这 10 个客户，并且超过 20% 的时间都被客户预订了，你就需要杠杆作用。
You need leverage.
你需要杠杆。
You've got to get ...
你必须得到...
If you do it too early, if you're not spending 20% of your time in sales and 20% of your time in recruiting, you're failing as a founder.
如果你做得太早，如果你没有把 20% 的时间花在销售上，把 20% 的时间花在招聘上，那么作为一名创始人，你就是失败的。
You need 20% of each, 20% in sales and 20% recruiting.
你需要各占20%，其中20%用于销售，20%用于招聘。
Nothing else really matters at some level as a CEO, maybe not as founders, but as CEOs.
作为首席执行官，也许不是作为创始人，而是作为首席执行官，在某种程度上，其他任何事情都没有什么真正重要的。
Once you cross the 20%, you need leverage or your calendar will die.
一旦你超过了 20%，你就需要杠杆，否则你的日历就会消失。
So you need to hire one rep and you've got to hire two because otherwise, there's no A-B test.
因此，您需要雇用一名销售代表，并且必须雇用两名销售代表，否则就无法进行 A-B 测试。
You have to A-B test humans.
你必须对人类进行 A-B 测试。
You have to A-B test humans.
你必须对人类进行 A-B 测试。
You've got to hire two as hard as it is, and there's just one cheat code to those first two.
你必须尽最大努力雇用两个人，而前两个人只有一个作弊码。
There's one cheat code.
有一个作弊码。
Jason Lemkin: I talked to so many founders that screwed up their first sales hires, and they always nod when they hear it.
杰森·莱姆金（Jason Lemkin）：我和很多创始人谈过，他们在招聘第一批销售人员时就搞砸了，他们听到这个消息时总是点头。
Those first couple reps have to be people you would buy your own product from.
最初的几位代表必须是您愿意向其购买自己的产品的人。
That's it.
就是这样。
Now we can talk about other criteria.
现在我们可以讨论其他标准。
We can talk about normalizing for deal size.
我们可以讨论交易规模的标准化。
We can talk about industry expertise.
我们可以谈论行业专业知识。
We can talk about all this kind of stuff, but when you go out as a first time founder and interview 30 reps, and you're going to have to interview 30, and 20 are just going to break your brain because they don't do any work and they don't do any prep and they didn't even go to your website.
我们可以讨论所有这些事情，但是当你作为第一次创始人出去采访 30 名代表时，你将不得不采访 30 名代表，而 20 名代表只会让你伤透脑筋，因为他们不做任何工作，不做任何准备，甚至没有访问你的网站。
Then eight of the next 10 are okay, but you know it's not really going to work, but you might hire them if you get tired.
然后接下来的 10 个中的 8 个还可以，但你知道这不会真正起作用，但如果你累了，你可能会雇用他们。
Jason Lemkin: If you're lucky, one or two of them, they're like magicians.
杰森·莱姆金：如果你幸运的话，他们中的一两个人就像魔术师一样。
They ask the right questions, which we could talk about.
他们提出了正确的问题，我们可以讨论这些问题。
Then take a pause and say, "Look, no matter how strange their background was, whatever they did, it's not the right background.
然后停顿一下说：“看，无论他们的背景多么奇怪，无论他们做了什么，这都不是正确的背景。
It's not our same deal size.
这与我们的交易规模不同。
It's not our industry.
这不是我们的行业。
They actually weren't very good at their last job.
他们实际上并不擅长上一份工作。
They got let go at their last job, but I would buy from Lenny.
他们在上一份工作中被解雇了，但我会从莱尼那里购买。
I know.
我知道。
I've been doing this for a year.
我这样做已经一年了。
Every day, I would buy from Lenny because Lenny just explained to me my product and my customer's problems in a way that I actually believe.
每天，我都会从莱尼那里购买产品，因为莱尼只是以我真正相信的方式向我解释了我的产品和客户的问题。
Forget about what's on her LinkedIn or his LinkedIn.
忘记她或他的 LinkedIn 上的内容。
I would buy from Lenny."
我会从莱尼那里买。”
Jason Lemkin: That rep always works because you can trust them with those leads.
Jason Lemkin：那个代表总是有效，因为你可以相信他们会提供这些线索。
Almost every first time founder hires someone because they worked at Twilio or CloudFlare or wherever, and they talk the talk and they can say ACV and NRR, and they can talk all these acronyms.
几乎每个创始人第一次雇用某人时，都是因为他们在 Twilio 或 CloudFlare 或其他地方工作过，他们会谈论 ACV 和 NRR，他们会谈论所有这些缩写词。
None of which matter.
这些都不重要。
None of which matter.
这些都不重要。
We all get attracted to logos on our resume, but in our gut, I always ask them, "Did you know that Jason was going to ...
我们都被简历上的标志所吸引，但在我们的内心，我总是问他们，“你知道杰森会......
Would you buy from Jason?" They're like, "You're right.
你愿意从杰森那里买东西吗？”他们就像，“你是对的。
I wouldn't have bought from Jason, but he worked at Twilio." So just wait, wait and interview 30 sales reps, however you find them through LinkedIn, through use recruiters, use contingent recruiters.
我不会从 Jason 那里买东西，但他在 Twilio 工作。”因此，只需等待，等待并面试 30 名销售代表，无论您通过 LinkedIn、使用招聘人员、使用临时招聘人员找到他们。
It's exhausting.
真累。
Do everything.
做一切事情。
Work your network and then be flexible in the beginning.
建立你的网络，然后在一开始就保持灵活性。
We're looking for pirates and romantics in the early days.
我们早期正在寻找海盗和浪漫主义者。
We are not looking for folks with massive sales operations teams and enablement teams.
我们并不是在寻找拥有庞大销售运营团队和支持团队的人员。
You're looking for that quirky one that's got a few extra IQ points, that for reasons that make no sense has fallen in love with your little product that is so feature poor and does nothing, but they love it, they love it, they love it.
你正在寻找一种古怪的东西，它有一些额外的智商点，出于毫无意义的原因爱上了你的小产品，它功能如此之差，什么也不做，但他们喜欢它，他们喜欢它，他们喜欢它。
Jason Lemkin: My first rep I had this back in the day, he had gotten let go by a prior startup and he was struggling and he was living in his brother's garage at the time.
Jason Lemkin：我的第一个代表当时就遇到过这样的情况，他被之前的一家初创公司解雇了，他正在苦苦挣扎，当时他住在他兄弟的车库里。
This was not your number one person at Snowflake, but of all the 30, he came in and what's now Adobe sign?
这不是 Snowflake 的第一人，但在所有 30 个人中，他进来了，现在的 Adobe 标志是什么？
EchoSign.
回声签名。
He described the whole problem.
他描述了整个问题。
He described how we would solve the problem for our customers in the early days of this category.
他描述了我们将如何在该类别的早期为客户解决问题。
It was clear, whatever it took we needed him and whatever we needed to backfill the garage or whatever, this was the only one that could sell the product, and he did it for a decade.
很明显，无论我们需要他做什么，无论我们需要回填车库或其他什么，这是唯一可以销售产品的人，他这样做了十年。
Closed our first five-figure deal, first six-figure deal, first seven-figure TCV deal.
完成了我们的第一笔五位数交易、第一笔六位数交易、第一笔七位数 TCV 交易。
Didn't scale completely.
没有完全扩展。
Inside of Adobe was harder to scale inside of a 20,000 person company than it was in a six-person company, but he was still there.
在 Adobe 内部，在 20,000 人的公司内部扩展比在 6 人的公司中更难，但他仍然在那里。
He still made that far to the journey, but he was the only one that I knew that I would buy my product from, not that I would buy something from, but I would buy my product from.
他仍然走了那么远的路，但他是我唯一知道我会从他那里购买我的产品的人，不是我会从他那里买东西，而是我会从他那里购买我的产品。
Jason Lemkin: Leads are so precious in the early days.
Jason Lemkin：早期的线索非常宝贵。
It's so hard to find leads.
找到线索太难了
That's the problem.
这就是问题所在。
You hire this perfect person from Snowflake and you have three leads a month and you give him two and he doesn't close them, your company's going to die.
你从 Snowflake 雇佣了这个完美的人，你每个月有 3 个潜在客户，你给了他两个，但他不关闭它们，你的公司就会消亡。
Leads are so precious.
线索是如此宝贵。
That's what folks don't get.
这是人们无法理解的。
So wait, and I know it's painful, and I know most founders have hired this person with the right LinkedIn that they wouldn't buy their product from.
所以等等，我知道这很痛苦，而且我知道大多数创始人都通过合适的 LinkedIn 雇佣了这个人，但他们不会从上面购买他们的产品。
Just keep interviewing.
继续采访吧。
You need that quirky pyromaniac that loves your product and can sell it.
您需要一个古怪的纵火狂，热爱您的产品并且能够销售它。
They're out there.
他们就在那里。
Lenny: Amazing advice.
莱尼：很棒的建议。
Wow.
哇。
There's so much there.
那里有很多东西。
I'm going to follow a couple threads there.
我将关注那里的几个主题。
In terms of the level, I know a lot of people make the mistake of going with a VP of sales pretty quickly.
就级别而言，我知道很多人很快就错误地选择了销售副总裁。
What's your advice?
你有什么建议？
I know you talked about general attributes, but what's your advice for the level and seniority of these first two hires?
我知道您谈到了一般属性，但是您对前两名员工的水平和资历有何建议？
Jason Lemkin: Two things, one that's evergreen and one that's maybe especially apropos for today's environment.
Jason Lemkin：有两件事，一件事是常青的，另一件事可能特别适合当今的环境。
The evergreen one, which I've talked about for over a decade, and I think folks that have been through it will see it, which is you need two sales reps hitting quota closing deals before you're ready to hire a manager for them.
常青树，我已经谈论了十多年，我想经历过的人都会看到它，那就是你需要两名销售代表完成完成交易的配额，然后你才能准备好为他们雇用一名经理。
Almost all VPs of sales, their job is to take you from rep three to 300, to take you from three to 300, to take something that's just starting to repeat, a script that's just starting to work, leads that are just starting to come in.
几乎所有的销售副总裁，他们的工作就是把你从 3 名代表带到 300 名代表，从 3 名代表带到 300 名代表，接受刚刚开始重复的事情，刚刚开始发挥作用的脚本，刚刚开始出现的销售线索。
Then take Lenny and Jason, the two reps I have, as quirky as they are, they're crushing it.
然后以莱尼和杰森为例，他们是我的两个代表，尽管他们很古怪，但他们正在粉碎它。
Jason Lemkin: Then I'm going to hire a more heterogeneous type of person going forward.
杰森·莱姆金（Jason Lemkin）：那么我将雇佣一个更加多元化的人。
I'm going to hire the person from Cloudfare.
我要雇用 Cloudfare 的人。
They can't all be like Lenny and Jason, they're pretty quirky, but at least I can learn from them.
他们不可能都像莱尼和杰森那样，他们很古怪，但至少我可以向他们学习。
What's working?
什么在起作用？
What are the objections?
反对意见是什么？
How do we get around that feature gap?
我们如何解决这个功能差距？
We're one year old, we're two years old.
我们一岁了，我们两岁了。
We've got a lot of feature gaps.
我们有很多功能差距。
This integration doesn't quite work.
这种集成不太有效。
How do we box around those issues?
我们如何解决这些问题？
How do we sell our 10x feature?
我们如何销售 10 倍功能？
Because if you're a startup, your product isn't very good, your software is not very good, and you have a competitor, but you have some 10x feature that is driving people to buy you something you're doing that does not exist in the marketplace.
因为如果你是一家初创公司，你的产品不是很好，你的软件不是很好，而且你有竞争对手，但你有一些 10 倍的功能，可以促使人们购买你正在做的市场上不存在的东西。
Jason Lemkin: The really good reps get insanely good at selling that, and the folks off the street, the new VPs often doesn't even understand the 10x feature.
Jason Lemkin：真正优秀的销售代表非常擅长推销这一点，而其他人、新副总裁往往甚至不了解 10 倍功能。
It's too subtle.
这太微妙了。
It's too subtle.
这太微妙了。
Why?
为什么？
The fact that your product is localized in Portuguese magically means you can win these deals.
事实上，您的产品已本地化为葡萄牙语，这神奇地意味着您可以赢得这些交易。
I'm making up something that doesn't quite make sense.
我正在编造一些不太有意义的东西。
So you need two reps that are hitting quota and then you hire VP of sales.
因此，您需要两名达到配额的销售代表，然后聘请销售副总裁。
If you hire it before then, you're doing a Hail Mary.
如果你在那之前租用它，你就是在做万福玛丽。
It ain't going to work.
这是行不通的。
It never, ever, never, ever, ever, never, ever works.
它永远、永远、永远、永远、永远、永远、永远行不通。
You're asking them to find product market fit to be the first rep, to be the second rep and scale it all at the same time.
你要求他们找到适合成为第一个代表、第二个代表的产品市场，并同时扩大规模。
It's mission impossible to do all four at the same time.
同时完成这四件事是不可能的任务。
Jason Lemkin: So that's the biggest mistake is, Lenny, I can't get sales going at my company.
杰森·莱姆金：所以最大的错误是，莱尼，我无法让我的公司进行销售。
I can't do it, but I raised $4 million in my C+ round.
我做不到，但我在 C+ 轮融资中筹集了 400 万美元。
I'm going to go out and hire the VP of sales.
我要出去聘请销售副总裁。
That VP of sales will not be there in eight months.
那位销售副总裁将在八个月后离开。
You know what else?
你知道还有什么吗？
2 million of the four will be gone because they'll never understand the product.
这四个人中的 200 万人将会消失，因为他们永远无法理解该产品。
They will never understand.
他们永远不会明白。
There's so many things we could talk about, but if there's one thing I could reinforce for this audience, it's that early sales team, they've got to be product gurus for your product audience.
我们可以谈论的事情有很多，但如果我可以向这些受众强调一件事，那就是早期的销售团队，他们必须成为产品受众的产品大师。
They've got to be product experts.
他们必须是产品专家。
Later as you scale, they can't be or you can't scale.
稍后当你扩展时，它们不能扩展或者你无法扩展。
Jason Lemkin: When I started, when I came out of my own startup and started interviewing other folks, I remember I would interview a lot of folks at places like GitHub back in the day.
Jason Lemkin：当我开始时，当我从自己的初创公司出来并开始采访其他人时，我记得当时我会在 GitHub 等地方采访很多人。
I'd be like, "Do you have a technical background?
我会问，“你有技术背景吗？
Are you an engineer?
你是工程师吗？
Have you ever built any software?" They're like, "No, I don't.
你曾经开发过任何软件吗？”他们就像，“不，我不。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know," and I was like, "I was curious how you could do it," but GitHub was so well-established that it's 10 questions.
我不知道，”我当时想，“我很好奇你怎么能做到这一点”，但 GitHub 已经非常成熟了，只有 10 个问题。
It's 10 questions and grab a sales engineer.
就是 10 个问题，然后找个销售工程师。
It's 10 questions and grab ...
这是 10 个问题，抓住...
So you got to be really good at 10 and then you grab a sales engineer.
所以你必须非常擅长 10 级，然后你才能找到一名销售工程师。
That doesn't work in the early estate startups.
这对于早期的房地产初创公司来说是行不通的。
So you've got to find these sales folks that are a bit of product savants and dropping the VP of sales in that isn't a product savant, which is a big issue.
因此，你必须找到一些产品专家的销售人员，并放弃那些不是产品专家的销售副总裁，这是一个大问题。
That's all mister or miss process.
这就是整个过程。
This is the issue.
这就是问题所在。
They're all mister or miss process.
他们都是“先生”或“错过”的过程。
Jason Lemkin: So the second point I wanted to make, and I was on the fence for years of when you hire a VP of sales, do they need to carry a bag?
Jason Lemkin：所以我想说的第二点是，当你聘请销售副总裁时，我多年来一直持观望态度，他们需要携带行李吗？
Do they need to sell themselves or not?
他们是否需要推销自己？
Does it matter?
有关系吗？
Does it matter?
有关系吗？
I wasn't sure for a long time.
我很长一段时间都不确定。
The reason I wasn't sure for a long time, it's not that you don't want a VP of sales carrying a bag.
之所以我很长一段时间都不确定，并不是你不想让销售副总裁背着包。
I do think a VP of engineering also should commit code.
我确实认为工程副总裁也应该提交代码。
We can talk about that.
我们可以谈谈这个。
Lenny: Carrying a bag, meaning close sales themselves?
莱尼：拎着一个袋子，意味着自己成交了？
Jason Lemkin: Yeah, have a quote.
杰森·莱姆金：是的，引用一下。
The reason I was on the fence was because I was like, "Well, listen, in theory it's great, but let's say you're a hot startup and you want to go from two to six this year." So I want to add 4 million in new bookings, and let's say I can do 400K in quota per rep.
我持观望态度的原因是因为我想，“好吧，听着，理论上这很棒，但假设你是一家热门初创公司，今年你想从两个增加到六个。”因此，我想增加 400 万个新预订，假设每个代表的配额可以达到 40 万个。
That means I got to have 10 reps.
这意味着我必须重复 10 次。
She walks in with two.
她带着两个人走进来。
I'm at a race, aren't I?
我正在参加比赛，不是吗？
I got to hire eight in the next six months to hit my plan, and I got to put numbers on the board.
我必须在接下来的六个月内雇用八个人来实现我的计划，并且我必须将数字写在董事会上。
If I'm going to out there as an individual contributor sales rep, I'm never going to hire eight people, am I?
如果我要作为个人贡献者销售代表，我永远不会雇用八个人，不是吗？
It's never going to happen.
这永远不会发生。
Jason Lemkin: So I used to say I don't know if it matters, but what I've learned the last 18 to 20 months when everyone has gotten lazy, Lenny, everyone in tech has gotten lazy, is I see way too many VPs of sales that come in and never have any idea how to sell the product, never, never.
Jason Lemkin：所以我过去常常说我不知道这是否重要，但在过去 18 到 20 个月里，当每个人都变得懒惰时，我学到的是，莱尼，科技行业的每个人都变得懒惰，我看到太多的销售副总裁进来，从来不知道如何销售产品，从来，从来没有。
They only want to be managers.
他们只想成为管理者。
Jason Lemkin: Now, whether they carry a bag or whether what they do is they join calls with the reps, whether they backfill the reps, you want your VP of sales in deals 20, 30 hours a week when they start.
Jason Lemkin：现在，无论他们提着包，还是他们所做的就是与销售代表一起通话，无论他们是否回补销售代表，你都希望你的销售副总裁在交易开始时每周工作 20、30 小时。
I see VPs of sales today start, they're in no deals.
我今天看到销售副总裁开始工作，他们没有达成任何交易。
I'll go to a board meeting and a VP of sales will be there two, three months, and they'll have a look on the board.
我会去参加一个董事会会议，销售副总裁会在那里呆两三个月，他们会查看董事会的情况。
I'm like, "How's it going with Airbnb?" and they'll be like, "I don't know.
我想，“Airbnb 怎么样？”他们会说：“我不知道。
I got to ask John." Doesn't know because it isn't in the deal, isn't even in the deal.
我得去问约翰。”不知道，因为它不在交易中，甚至不在交易中。
So I see this too often.
所以我经常看到这种情况。
Jason Lemkin: Another company I'm on the board on, I really like this VP of sales a lot.
Jason Lemkin：我是另一家公司的董事会成员，我非常喜欢这位销售副总裁。
He joined and six months in, sales were down from where, the new bookings were down from where they were six months before.
他加入后六个月，销售额较六个月前下降，新预订量较六个月前下降。
He was honest.
他很诚实。
He's like, "The biggest problem is I feel like I didn't have time to learn this product.
他说，“最大的问题是我觉得我没有时间学习这个产品。
It's a complicated product.
这是一个复杂的产品。
It's more complicated than the product I last sold, and I just didn't have time."
它比我上次销售的产品更复杂，而且我只是没有时间。”
Lenny: Jason, this conversation is going exactly how I'd hoped.
莱尼：杰森，这次谈话正如我所希望的那样进行。
There's so much actionable advice here.
这里有很多可行的建议。
Let me try to summarize a little bit of the things you've said and then keep going.
让我试着总结一下你所说的一些事情，然后继续。
So let me know what I'm missing here.
所以让我知道我在这里缺少什么。
I'm going to try to just highlight some of the important things you mentioned.
我将尝试强调您提到的一些重要事项。
So in terms of when it makes sense to start hiring your first salesperson, a couple of things you shared is you've closed the first 10 customers on your own as founders.
因此，就何时开始雇用第一个销售人员而言，您分享的几件事是，作为创始人，您已经自己关闭了前 10 个客户。
If you're spending more than 20% of your time on sales and you need to start creating more leverage.
如果您花费超过 20% 的时间进行销售，那么您需要开始创造更多杠杆。
I'll throw in one other thing I've heard and just to tell me if this is also true, that there's a repeatable process you've created.
我将添加我听到的另一件事，只是为了告诉我这是否也是正确的，即您创建了一个可重复的流程。
You can sell consistently enough or you can tell someone, "Here's how I've been selling." Is that right?
你可以持续地进行销售，或者你可以告诉别人，“这就是我一直以来的销售方式。”是这样吗？
Jason Lemkin: Yeah.
杰森·莱姆金：是的。
If you hire a VP of sales before then, it's approaching 100% chance of failure.
如果你在此之前聘请销售副总裁，失败的可能性接近 100%。
Lenny: I see.
莱尼：我明白了。
So you can hire the first two reps before you're like, "Here's a pretty good process that has worked for me a number of times."
因此，你可以雇佣前两名销售代表，然后你就会说：“这是一个非常好的流程，已经对我有用过很多次了。”
Jason Lemkin: Yeah.
杰森·莱姆金：是的。
Listen, as hard as it is for a lot of founders to even get their arms around, the reason is you've got to be that crummy first head of sales with them.
听着，尽管对于很多创始人来说，拥抱他们是很困难的，原因是你必须成为他们的第一位销售主管。
You've got to manage those reps.
你必须管理这些代表。
You've got to be in the field with them.
你必须和他们一起在现场。
You've got to be figuring it out before you can hire the person.
在雇用这个人之前，你必须弄清楚这一点。
You just have to even if you're terrible at it because you're still going to be a good middler.
即使你很糟糕，你也必须这样做，因为你仍然会成为一名优秀的中间人。
You're still going to be a good middler.
你仍然会成为一名优秀的中间人。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
A few more things that stood out to me.
还有一些对我来说很突出的事情。
One is hire two sales reps immediately, not just one.
一是立即雇用两名销售代表，而不仅仅是一名。
These reps you need to interview about 30 people.
您需要采访这些代表大约 30 人。
Eight will be pretty good, 20 will be terrible, and two, these are people that you can see selling your product and you would buy from them.
八个就不错了，二十个就很糟糕了，还有两个，你可以看到这些人在销售你的产品，你会从他们那里购买。
They're often very quirky and not maybe a traditional sales background.
他们通常非常古怪，可能没有传统的销售背景。
They've never been VPs of sales, essentially.
本质上，他们从来都不是销售副总裁。
They're more like AEs and things like that historically or maybe not even salespeople historically.
从历史上看，他们更像是 AE 之类的人，甚至可能不是销售人员。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Jason Lemkin: I think you will regret it if you don't hire these first couple of sales reps that have a couple years of experience if you're in B2B with B2B sales.
Jason Lemkin：如果您从事 B2B 销售，我认为如果您不雇用这些拥有几年经验的前几位销售代表，您会后悔的。
They need a couple of years of experience and they need a certain amount of maturity, and maturity is a real issue, and these are in any early hire because we just don't have time to babysit people.
他们需要几年的经验，需要一定的成熟度，而成熟度是一个真正的问题，而这些都是任何早期招聘的问题，因为我们没有时间照顾员工。
There's no onboarding, there's no training.
没有入职，没有培训。
So they need a couple years of experience, ideally something close to your deal size, we could chat about why, that would be nice, and enough maturity that you can trust them with that lead.
因此，他们需要几年的经验，最好是接近您的交易规模的经验，我们可以讨论为什么，这会很好，并且足够成熟，您可以信任他们的领先优势。
You can trust them with your customer.
您可以信任他们和您的客户。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
Then you hire a VP of sales once you're ready to go from three to 300 reps.
一旦您准备好将销售代表从 3 名增加到 300 名，您就可以聘请一名销售副总裁。
Your advice is also give the VP of sales a bag slash a quota slash they need to be doing sales themselves in today's world.
您的建议还包括给销售副总裁大幅削减配额，让他们在当今世界自行进行销售。
Jason Lemkin: At least for a little while.
杰森·莱姆金：至少有一段时间。
More importantly, if they don't want to, I think in today's world you got to run from them.
更重要的是，如果他们不愿意，我认为在当今世界你必须逃离他们。
Exactly whether they fully carry a quota, a half quota, whether they backfill the sales team, you want a salesperson.
确切地说，他们是否满额配额，半额配额，是否回补销售团队，你需要一名销售人员。
Here's the thing, Lenny, you want a ...
事情是这样的，莱尼，你想要一个……
This is going to sound silly, but it's not.
这听起来很愚蠢，但事实并非如此。
Trust me on this.
相信我。
For anyone watching, listening, you want a head of sales that actually wants to do sales.
对于任何观看、聆听的人来说，您都需要一位真正想做销售的销售主管。
I got to tell you, and I'm still struggling with this myself after the last three years or so, so many folks in all functions, we could talk about other functions too, but especially in sales, don't want to do sales anymore.
我必须告诉你，在过去三年左右的时间里，我自己仍在努力解决这个问题，所有职能部门都有很多人，我们也可以谈论其他职能部门，但特别是在销售方面，不想再做销售了。
They don't want to do it.
他们不想这样做。
They don't want do it.
他们不想这样做。
Jason Lemkin: 2021 was crazy because everything was too crazy.
Jason Lemkin：2021 年很疯狂，因为一切都太疯狂了。
There's too much money, too much going on.
钱太多了，事情也太多了。
2022 was the knife falling.
2022年是刀落。
That was crazy too.
那也太疯狂了。
2023 was just hard.
2023 年真是艰难。
Whether it's burnout or whatever out or just too much change, I would say I've probably interviewed for different reasons, 50 VPs of sales in the last 12 months, I would say the majority don't want to do sales.
无论是精疲力尽还是其他什么原因，或者只是太多的变化，我想说我可能出于不同的原因采访过 50 名销售副总裁，在过去 12 个月里，我想说大多数人不想做销售。
It's my first screening question.
这是我的第一个筛选问题。
That's why they got to carry a bag because it proves they actually still care about the craft.
这就是为什么他们必须携带一个包，因为这证明他们实际上仍然关心这门手艺。
Jason Lemkin: The best sales folks love sales.
杰森·莱姆金（Jason Lemkin）：最好的销售人员热爱销售。
It's a craft.
这是一门手艺。
They love money.
他们爱钱。
Yes, they love money, and that does matter.
是的，他们爱钱，这确实很重要。
Do not hire a sales rep that doesn't like money.
不要雇用不喜欢钱的销售代表。
Trust me on this one.
相信我这一点。
There's 0% chance they'll work out either, but they also like the craft.
他们成功锻炼的可能性都是 0%，但他们也喜欢这项技艺。
They like honing the script.
他们喜欢打磨剧本。
They like beating the competition.
他们喜欢击败竞争对手。
They like figuring out the counterfeit.
他们喜欢辨别假货。
They like figuring out the weapon and the 10x feature.
他们喜欢弄清楚武器和 10 倍功能。
They like working on a team.
他们喜欢在团队中工作。
They like hunting.
他们喜欢狩猎。
They love it, but then sometimes I just think burnout is always a reality, but I just think that the last three years have been so yo-yoed, that folks are just, they're out.
他们喜欢它，但有时我只是认为倦怠始终是一个现实，但我只是认为过去三年是如此摇摆不定，人们只是，他们已经出局了。
They're out.
他们出去了。
Don't hire them no matter how smart they are, and that's the test.
无论他们多么聪明，都不要雇用他们，这就是考验。
Jason Lemkin: I'll tell you, I talked with a really great VP of sales candidate that had worked with a top 10 tech company and I asked him what he wanted to do in this next role.
Jason Lemkin：我告诉你，我与一位非常出色的销售副总裁候选人进行了交谈，他曾在一家排名前十的科技公司工作过，我问他想在下一个角色中做什么。
He's like, "I've got a great team.
他说：“我有一支很棒的团队。
I've got eight people that I can bring with me.
我可以带八个人一起去。
We're ready to lock and load." I'm like, "Okay.
我们已准备好锁定并装载。”我想，“好吧。
Well, let me tell you one of my views in today's world is that you've got to actually visit more customers now, not less.
好吧，让我告诉你我对当今世界的看法之一是，你现在必须真正拜访更多的客户，而不是更少。
In a distributed world, it's more important to visit customers." He lived in the East Bay in Pleasanton in the East Bay, which is maybe 20 minutes east of Oakland.
在分布式世界中，拜访客户更为重要。”他住在东湾普莱森顿的东湾，距离奥克兰以东大约 20 分钟车程。
He said, "I'm willing to visit customers, but I won't go as far as the peninsula in San Francisco." He's just happy at home.
他说，“我愿意去拜访客户，但不会跑到旧金山半岛那么远。”他只是在家很开心。
He's happy at home, Lenny, and he don't want to sell.
他在家很开心，莱尼，他不想卖掉。
Jason Lemkin: This guy has the best LinkedIn and the best references, but he don't want to sell anymore.
Jason Lemkin：这个人拥有最好的 LinkedIn 和最好的推荐人，但他不想再卖了。
He needs a job.
他需要一份工作。
He wants to be a VP of sales.
他想成为销售副总裁。
I see this across the industry and I'm struggling to find answers.
我在整个行业都看到了这一点，并且正在努力寻找答案。
I think the biggest hiring ...
我认为最大的招聘...
We talked about a lot of tactical hiring mistakes that you can make today in sales.
我们讨论了今天在销售中可能犯的许多战术招聘错误。
The biggest strategic mistake you can make today in sales because there's so many veterans, there's so many folks that worked at Twilio and Mongo and wherever, pick any great company you want.
今天你在销售中可能犯的最大的战略错误是因为有这么多的退伍军人，有这么多的人在 Twilio 和 Mongo 工作过，无论在哪里，选择你想要的任何伟大的公司。
There's so many veterans out there, you just can't hire the ones that don't actually want to sell anymore, and there's too many, there's too many.
那里有很多退伍军人，你无法雇用那些实际上不想再出售的人，而且太多了，太多了。
Lenny: You mentioned that you actually just asked them in the interview.
Lenny：你提到你实际上只是在采访中问过他们。
The first question is, "Do you actually want to sell?" What other questions do you ask for either ...
第一个问题是：“你真的想卖吗？”您还想问什么其他问题...
Let's go through both.
让我们来看看两者。
You said you have these questions that you ask for the early hires and then the VP of sales.
您说您向早期员工和销售副总裁提出了这些问题。
What are some tips for people when they're interviewing these folks?
当人们采访这些人时，有哪些建议可供参考？
Jason Lemkin: It's interesting.
杰森·莱姆金：这很有趣。
VP of sales or VP of product, I look for the same answer.
销售副总裁或产品副总裁，我寻找相同的答案。
One of the Colombo style questions I ask them, and this is so odd.
我问他们一个科伦坡风格的问题，这太奇怪了。
It barely even counts as a question is, what do you want to do your first 30 days?
甚至连问题都算不上，前 30 天你想做什么？
What do you want to do?
你想让我做什么？
Actually, I usually ask, "What do you want to do your first two weeks?" In B2B, if I don't hear from the VP of sales or the VP of product that I'm going to go meet customers, out, I'm out.
事实上，我通常会问：“前两周你想做什么？”在 B2B 领域，如果我没有从销售副总裁或产品副总裁那里听到我要去见客户，我就出去。
There's too many VPs of product too, Lenny, that don't want to meet customers anymore either.
莱尼，还有太多的产品副总裁也不想再见到客户了。
The majority of VPs of products that I interview, they don't meet customers.
我采访过的大多数产品副总裁都不会见客户。
Every single great VP of product, chief product officer I've ever worked with in my entire career, you know what the first thing they do in the first two weeks?
在我的整个职业生涯中，每一位伟大的产品副总裁、首席产品官，你知道他们在前两周做的第一件事是什么吗？
They're like, "Leave me alone.
他们就像是，“别管我。
I'm going to go talk to 20 customers.
我要去和 20 位顾客交谈。
Leave me alone."
别管我了。”
Jason Lemkin: The first two weeks, they're like, "Leave me alone.
杰森·莱姆金：前两周，他们会说，“别打扰我。
I'm going to go talk to 20 customers.
我要去和 20 位顾客交谈。
Leave me alone.
别管我了。
Leave me alone, I'm going to go talk..." They don't want to sit out on meetings and look at PRDs and talk out of their navel on endless internal meetings.
别管我，我要去谈谈……”他们不想坐在会议上看着 PRD，并在无休止的内部会议上胡言乱语。
All the best ones, they say they just leave.
所有最好的人，他们说他们就离开了。
They literally say, "Leave me alone.
他们字面意思是：“别打扰我。
I will see you in two weeks.
两周后我会见到你。
I'm going to go meet with 20 customers." And that's what products should do.
我要去见 20 位顾客。”这就是产品应该做的。
Sales, whether it's prospects or existing customers, it can vary, but they should be like, "On my first day, I want to join five calls."
销售，无论是潜在客户还是现有客户，都可能有所不同，但他们应该是这样的，“在我的第一天，我想加入五个电话。”
Jason Lemkin: And when you hear that story of, "I don't want to travel out of Pleasanton," or they say, here's what you're going to hear from the wrong person for anything, even up to 50 million in revenue, "I'm going to spend that first month working on process," "I'm going to spend that first month getting Salesforce up and running," "I'm going to send the first month on territory planning, Lenny, because we really, with our three reps, I really want to make sure we've nailed territories, right?
Jason Lemkin：当你听到这样的故事时，“我不想离开普莱森顿”，或者他们说，你会从错误的人那里听到这样的话，即使收入高达 5000 万美元，“我将在第一个月的时间里处理流程”，“我将在第一个月的时间里启动并运行 Salesforce”，“我将在第一个月发送有关区域规划的信息，Lenny，因为我们真的，与我们的三个代表们，我真的想确保我们已经锁定了领土，对吧？
Lenny will do the south, Elaine will do the east, Jason will do the west."
莱尼将负责南部，伊莱恩将负责东部，杰森将负责西部。”
Jason Lemkin: When you hear process, process, process, from any, from marketing, product, sales, customer success, too, boy, it's the death of customer success.
Jason Lemkin：当你听到营销、产品、销售、客户成功等任何过程、过程、过程时，孩子，这就是客户成功的死亡。
It's just...
这只是...
And it's not that you don't need process, it's just, it's even worse than it was than a few years ago.
并不是说不需要流程，只是，比几年前还要糟糕。
And I know this is going to trigger some people, but the truth is they don't want to work.
我知道这会触发一些人，但事实是他们不想工作。
They don't want to work.
他们不想工作。
They don't want to work.
他们不想工作。
Jason Lemkin: I literally just got this LinkedIn email to work with me at SaaStr, from this person who'd been reading SaaStr for eight years.
Jason Lemkin：我刚刚收到了这封 LinkedIn 电子邮件，是为了在 SaaStr 与我一起工作，来自这个已经阅读 SaaStr 八年的人。
You're like, "I want to run account management, customer success for you.
你会说，“我想为你进行客户管理和客户成功。
Here's what's, you're doing wrong, here's how to do it." I'm like, "Oh, this is pretty good." And I DMed her back, I'm like, "Great.
事情是这样的，你做错了，这是怎么做的。”我想，“哦，这很好。”我给她回了私信，我说：“太好了。
To be honest, you realize that you're actually going to have to talk to customers and sponsors yourself in the beginning." No response.
说实话，你意识到一开始你实际上必须与客户交谈并赞助自己。”没有回应。
Just out.
刚出来。
Just out.
刚出来。
And that was the best one I got the last 30 days.
这是我过去 30 天里得到的最好的一次。
That was the best inbound that I personally got.
这是我个人得到的最好的入境。
Jason Lemkin: I know it sounds triggering or critical, but as founders, we have to be honest that there's this vast pool of veterans with great LinkedIns and great resumes that are so burnt out, Lenny.
贾森·莱姆金（Jason Lemkin）：我知道这听起来很刺激或很关键，但作为创始人，我们必须诚实地说，有大量拥有出色 LinkedIn 和出色简历的退伍军人已经精疲力竭，莱尼。
And let's not blame them.
我们不要责怪他们。
I know it sounds like I'm blaming them or being negative, and I'm trying to not be negative.
我知道这听起来像是我在责怪他们或消极，但我努力不消极。
I'm empathetic.
我很有同理心。
I am empathetic to the burnout, but don't, you can't hire these.
我对职业倦怠感同身受，但别这样，你不能雇用这些人。
There's too many.
太多了。
Jason Lemkin: The industry is littered with the burnt out.
Jason Lemkin：这个行业充满了精疲力尽的人。
They're littered with it.
他们到处都是它。
And if you hear a touch of cynicism, if you hear anger, if you hear, "I don't want to meet customers in any..." and I'm going to say any VP role, product, sales, marketing, customers...
如果你听到一丝愤世嫉俗，如果你听到愤怒，如果你听到“我不想以任何方式与客户见面……”，我会说任何副总裁角色，产品、销售、营销、客户……
If they don't want to meet customers their first, let's make it a 14-day test, you know they're never going to want to meet customers.
如果他们不想首先与客户见面，那么我们就进行 14 天的测试，您知道他们永远不会愿意与客户见面。
Lenny: These folks that don't want to do sales that are VPs of sales, I imagine when you're further along, that's more, okay, because you don't need them to be doing sales, right?
莱尼：这些不想做销售的人是销售副总裁，我想当你走得更远时，那就更多了，好吧，因为你不需要他们做销售，对吧？
They want to manage, optimize.
他们想要管理、优化。
No. I see you shaking your head?
不，我看到你在摇头？
Jason Lemkin: I mean, okay, you think, okay, there's an element, let's call it north of 50 or 100 million, where for, what's sometimes called commercial sales, SMB sales, it really is all process.
Jason Lemkin：我的意思是，好吧，你认为，好吧，有一个元素，让我们称之为 50 或 1 亿以北，对于有时所谓的商业销售、中小企业销售来说，这实际上是所有过程。
Okay?
好的？
So for sure, I agree.
所以我当然同意。
But at Salesforce, they're trying to close $100-million-plus deals.
但在 Salesforce，他们正试图完成价值超过 1 亿美元的交易。
You think that the sales leadership doesn't need to be in those deals?
您认为销售领导不需要参与这些交易吗？
You think they can just hit refresh on the dashboards and track them from home?
您认为他们只需在仪表板上点击刷新即可在家跟踪它们吗？
No. Marc Benioff today is still flying to meet customers.
不会。马克·贝尼奥夫今天仍在飞行去见客户。
He said the other day, why does Marc Benioff go to Davos?
前几天他说，马克·贝尼奥夫为什么要去达沃斯？
He sits, and I've never been to Davos.
他坐着，而我从未去过达沃斯。
He sits at the same place, at the top of some staircase.
他坐在同一个地方，某个楼梯的顶部。
Okay?
好的？
Jason Lemkin: And Salesforce drops millions of dollars, and he waits to meet customers, prospects, and partners in person all day, because it's efficient.
Jason Lemkin：Salesforce 损失了数百万美元，他整天等着与客户、潜在客户和合作伙伴见面，因为这样效率很高。
Because it's efficient.
因为它高效。
Because he can do 50 or 100 customer or prospect meetings a day at Davos.
因为他每天可以在达沃斯召开 50 或 100 场客户或潜在客户会议。
He's still doing it at 30-something billion in revenue.
他的收入仍然在 30 多亿美元。
Right?
正确的？
So this idea that, is there some truth at...
所以这个想法有一定道理吗...
For example, when I worked at Adobe back in the day, it is true that Adobe, which was, parts of the business, sales literally was dashboards.
例如，当我当年在 Adobe 工作时，Adobe 确实是业务的一部分，销售实际上就是仪表板。
I get it.
我得到它。
Okay, at four billion, 10 billion in revenue, but most of your audience is not ready to hire at four billion or 10 billion in revenue.
好吧，收入是 40 亿、100 亿，但是大多数受众还没有准备好以 40 亿或 100 亿的收入来招聘。
They're not ready to hire that person.
他们还没有准备好雇用那个人。
Don't hire them, right?
不要雇用他们，对吗？
Lenny: I don't know, maybe Satya's listening.
莱尼：我不知道，也许萨蒂亚在听。
You never know.
你永远不知道。
Jason Lemkin: I think on the sales side of the business, they're flying out to the big deals?
Jason Lemkin：我认为在业务的销售方面，他们正在飞去参加大交易？
Lenny: To close the loop on this thread, when you're interviewing the early sales reps, those first two quirky folks, what are some questions and ways to know if there may be a good fit?
莱尼：为了结束这个话题，当你面试早期的销售代表，前两个古怪的人时，有哪些问题和方法可以知道是否适合？
You mentioned one of, you feel like you would buy from them?
你提到其中之一，你觉得你会从他们那里购买吗？
Jason Lemkin: Okay.
杰森·莱姆金：好的。
The one, really, the simplest one, and early in my career, I thought this was silly or hated it, this Glengarry Glen Ross.
一个，真的，最简单的一个，在我职业生涯的早期，我认为这很愚蠢或讨厌它，这个格伦加里格伦罗斯。
I don't know if it was Glengarry Glen Ross or that toxic Leo movie about sales, which is still entertaining.
我不知道这是格伦加里·格伦·罗斯还是那部关于销售的有毒的狮子座电影，这部电影仍然很有趣。
Yeah, one way or another, Lenny, it's got to be, "Sell me this pen." But it's not "Sell me this pen," it's "Sell me this app." So I don't like surprises, I don't like games.
是的，无论如何，莱尼，一定是，“卖给我这支笔。”但这不是“卖给我这支笔”，而是“卖给我这个应用程序”。所以我不喜欢惊喜，也不喜欢游戏。
I like to do this in a second interview or whatever.
我喜欢在第二次面试或其他什么时候这样做。
Give them time.
给他们时间。
And I don't like to judge too harshly, but whether it's the first interview or the second, they got to sell you this pen.
我不喜欢太严厉地评判，但无论是第一次面试还是第二次面试，他们都得卖给你这支笔。
They've got to put in the 30 minutes of work and maybe it's two hours.
他们必须投入 30 分钟的工作，也许需要两个小时。
Jason Lemkin: But here's the thing, today's world, you can go on YouTube or someone's website...
Jason Lemkin：但事情是这样的，当今世界，你可以访问 YouTube 或某人的网站......
There's an explainer video for every product under the sun, isn't there?
世界上的每一种产品都有一个解释视频，不是吗？
I am shocked how many salespeople I have met, Lenny, from SDR to SEB of sales that, by the time...
我很惊讶我遇到了多少销售人员，Lenny，从 SDR 到 SEB 的销售，到那时......
And I'm doing an interview for a portfolio company, this isn't a screener interview, they haven't even watched an explainer video yet.
我正在为一家投资组合公司进行面试，这不是筛选面试，他们甚至还没有看过解释视频。
I could be the fifth or eighth interview, and they don't know how the product works.
我可能是第五次或第八次面试，他们不知道该产品是如何工作的。
They have not even gone to the effort of searching YouTube or the homepage and watching it.
他们甚至没有费力去搜索 YouTube 或主页并观看。
Jason Lemkin: And forget about explainer videos enough.
Jason Lemkin：忘记解释视频吧。
But so many companies do webinars now and they publish them on the...
但现在有很多公司举办网络研讨会，并将其发布在...
Really good stuff, customer testimonials.
确实是好东西，客户好评。
Right?
正确的？
If you're a sales rep, you don't actually have to know how the webhooks work or how to provision an API key, but you need to know the product as well as that webinar that's on YouTube.
如果您是销售代表，您实际上不必了解 Webhook 的工作原理或如何配置 API 密钥，但您需要了解该产品以及 YouTube 上的网络研讨会。
And 98 out of 100 folks won't bother in an interview.
100 个人中有 98 个人不愿意接受采访。
They won't bother.
他们不会打扰。
They're just going to click on "Apply" on the ATS and tell you, "Hey, I recently stumbled upon whatever.
他们只需点击 ATS 上的“应用”并告诉你，“嘿，我最近偶然发现了一些事情。
It looks like...
看起来像...
Do you have time to discuss." Right?
有时间讨论一下吗？”正确的？
Jason Lemkin: But that one that actually does enough work and watches the video, and then can sell it to you, and they're going to make mistakes.
杰森·莱姆金：但是如果一个人实际上做了足够的工作并观看了视频，然后可以将其卖给你，他们就会犯错误。
They're not going to get it right, but they have enough confidence with the core problem to be solved.
他们不会做对，但他们对要解决的核心问题有足够的信心。
Because here's the mistake that 99% of founders and sales reps make.
因为这是 99% 的创始人和销售代表都会犯的错误。
We're not really selling in B2B.
我们并不是真正进行 B2B 销售。
We're solving problems.
我们正在解决问题。
And this is why so many people are struggling in 2024, because they can't...
这就是为什么这么多人在 2024 年苦苦挣扎，因为他们无法……
their products, as sales reps, as companies, they can't solve big problems anymore.
他们的产品，作为销售代表，作为公司，他们不能再解决大问题了。
Jason Lemkin: Our job as sales reps in SaaS is to not sell a used car, okay?
Jason Lemkin：作为 SaaS 销售代表，我们的工作不是出售二手车，好吗？
We are selling a Tesla Model 3 performance.
我们正在销售特斯拉 Model 3 性能车。
It has competition.
它有竞争。
I might not need it this week, but it's pretty darn good.
这周我可能不需要它，但它非常好。
And I'm going to help you understand, Lenny, because you're in the market for the car, why this is the best one.
莱尼，我将帮助您了解为什么这是最好的汽车，因为您正在市场上购买这辆车。
I'm going to be honest about where it's not.
我会诚实地说出哪里不对。
I'm going to answer all your questions.
我将回答你所有的问题。
I'm such an expert, and then I'm going to ask you, Lenny, when is that...
我是个专家，然后我要问你，莱尼，那是什么时候......
You have 280,000 miles on the Civic?
您的思域已经行驶了 280,000 英里？
Let me help you get you into that Model 3 performance today.
今天让我帮助您了解 Model 3 的性能。
And I've even got a special discount for the end of this month.
我什至在这个月底得到了特别折扣。
And let me just help you."
让我来帮助你吧。”
Jason Lemkin: And I've spent four calls answering all your questions and I'm explained to you all the things and why the supercharging network is better than the regular one that doesn't really work at the charger near your house.
杰森·莱姆金：我已经打了四个电话来回答你们所有的问题，并向你们解释了所有的事情，以及为什么超级充电网络比在您家附近的充电器上无法正常工作的常规网络更好。
And I've gone on Google and I've seen there's no charging network near your house, there's only supercharges.
我在谷歌上查了一下，发现你家附近没有充电网络，只有超级充电。
I got you, don't I?
我找到你了，不是吗？
And that's the job of SaaS and sales, because we're not selling commodities.
这就是 SaaS 和销售的工作，因为我们不销售商品。
And that's why the best reps will also tell reps when not to buy their product.
这就是为什么最好的销售代表也会告诉销售代表何时不要购买他们的产品。
Jason Lemkin: As painful as that seems in tougher times, in 2024, the best reps say, "No, we're not there yet.
Jason Lemkin：尽管在困难时期这看起来很痛苦，但在 2024 年，最好的销售代表会说：“不，我们还没有到那一步。
We're not the right...
我们不是对的...
If you need this feature, if you need this integration, I want you back in six months when you use this big product that isn't that great.
如果你需要这个功能，如果你需要这个集成，我希望你在六个月内回来，当你使用这个不太好的大产品时。
But today, we're not the right solution for you." That's, the best ones do that.
但今天，我们不是适合您的解决方案。”也就是说，最好的解决方案会这样做。
They have the confidence to know to close it.
他们有信心知道要关闭它。
And the rest of the world thinks this is some sort of adversarial transactional thing and it's not.
世界其他地方认为这是某种对抗性交易，但事实并非如此。
Right?
对吗？
Jason Lemkin: Software...
杰森·莱姆金：软件...
I think hopefully all your audience would agree, when it's done right, software's magical.
我想希望所有的观众都会同意，如果做得正确的话，软件是有魔力的。
It solves incredible problems, incredible problems.
它解决了令人难以置信的问题，令人难以置信的问题。
What Airbnb does, what Uber does, what SaaS...
Airbnb 做什么、Uber 做什么、SaaS 做什么……
Things solve...
事情解决...
I can track my customers, I can manage, I can automate my communications.
我可以跟踪我的客户，我可以管理，我可以自动化我的通信。
It's magical.
这很神奇。
You shouldn't have to use boiler room tactics and use tactics when you have something.
你不应该使用锅炉房战术，当你有东西的时候才使用战术。
But, it doesn't sell itself, except for a little while in late 2020, early 2021, that screwed the whole world up when products actually sold themselves.
但是，它不会自我推销，除了 2020 年末、2021 年初的一段时间，当产品真正自我推销时，整个世界都被搞砸了。
Lenny: I feel like this is a separate podcast we should do of just how to get better at sales and how to sell.
莱尼：我觉得这是一个单独的播客，我们应该做一个关于如何更好地销售以及如何销售的播客。
But, I feel like that's its own hour of conversation.
但是，我觉得这就是它自己的谈话时间。
I did a great episode with April Dunford where, I don't know if you follow her stuff, but she-
我和阿普丽尔·邓福德一起做了一集很棒的节目，我不知道你是否关注她的作品，但她——
Lenny: ...
莱尼：……
essentially describes exactly your approach of help people understand the market, help them understand the entire landscape, and then talk about your problem.
本质上准确地描述了你帮助人们了解市场、帮助他们了解整个格局，然后谈论你的问题的方法。
So anyway, we'll link to that episode.
所以无论如何，我们都会链接到该集。
Has a lot of good advice there.
那里有很多好的建议。
In terms of this interview, selling-me-a-pen approach, to give people something very concrete to do.
就这次采访而言，“卖给我一支笔”的方法是给人们一些非常具体的事情去做。
How do you actually set this up?
你实际上是如何设置的？
Is it like, "Sell me your product," and then they put together a pitch for your team and they pitch you on a product?
是不是就像“把你的产品卖给我”，然后他们为你的团队整理了一份宣传材料，然后向你推销产品？
Jason Lemkin: I'll tell you, until the boom, until everyone in late 2020 got so desperate to hire anyone with a pulse, almost everyone in sales had to come and they had, during an interview process, they actually had to do the pitch.
Jason Lemkin：我告诉你，直到经济繁荣，直到 2020 年底每个人都如此迫切地想要雇用有脉搏的人，几乎每个销售人员都必须来，而且在面试过程中，他们实际上必须进行推销。
They would come and you used to do it in person with this screen.
他们会来，而你过去常常通过这个屏幕亲自这样做。
You can do it on Zoom now, it really doesn't matter, but do it for real.
你现在可以在 Zoom 上做，这真的不重要，但要真正做。
Do it for real, and everyone would see.
真正做到这一点，每个人都会看到。
And everyone in recruiting change, people stopped doing reference checks, they stopped doing these tests, and they would just hire warm bodies.
每个人在招聘过程中都会发生变化，人们不再进行背景调查，他们不再进行这些测试，他们只会雇佣温暖的人。
Jason Lemkin: Late 2020, I can tell you a funny story in a second, and it was okay until it wasn't.
Jason Lemkin：2020 年末，我可以在一秒钟内告诉你一个有趣的故事，直到它没有发生为止都没关系。
And our hiring processes have not reverted back to pre-March, 2020, and I think it's failing founders left and right.
我们的招聘流程还没有回到 2020 年 3 月之前，我认为这让创始人们都失望了。
I can't tell you, I would say 95% of the hiring I see out there, people don't do reference checks anymore, Lenny.
我不能告诉你，我想说的是，我看到的 95% 的招聘人员不再进行背景调查，莱尼。
And we can talk about when they work and when they don't, but no one does them.
我们可以讨论它们何时有效、何时无效，但没有人这样做。
No one does them.
没有人这样做。
You're going to invest so much...
你要投资这么多...
Forget about the salary, it doesn't really matter.
忘记工资吧，这并不重要。
So much time, your time, your leads, everything's so precious, to bring Jason into your company and you're going to go through all this recruiting process and you're not even going to do any reference checks?
这么多的时间，你的时间，你的领导，一切都如此宝贵，把杰森带进你的公司，你要经历所有这些招聘过程，你甚至不打算做任何背景调查？
People don't even do reference checks.
人们甚至不进行背景调查。
Jason Lemkin: And they don't, they stopped doing, "Do me this demo," because they were so worried the rep would go to Gusto or would go to Deal, or would go to remote.
Jason Lemkin：他们没有，他们停止做“给我做这个演示”，因为他们非常担心代表会去找 Gusto 或会去 Deal，或者会去远程。
There was no time.
没有时间了。
I got to get...
我必须得到...
This SDR has 50 offers.
此 SDR 有 50 个报价。
Lenny, we got to hire this SDR with three weeks of experience.
莱尼，我们雇用了这位拥有三周经验的 SDR。
We've got to decide today.
我们今天必须做出决定。
And that's the way, and hiring does not come back.
事情就是这样，招聘就不会再回来了。
If those hires bounce, not only is it bad for you, but it's a disservice to the...
如果这些员工跳槽，不仅对你不利，而且对......
It's worse for the hire.
对于招聘来说，情况更糟。
I mean, that poor CloudFlare woman that blew up with the thing, there's so many issues there we could dig into, but it's all Cloudflare fault for hiring her.
我的意思是，那个可怜的 CloudFlare 女士因为这件事而大发雷霆，那里有很多问题我们可以深入研究，但这都是 Cloudflare 雇用她的错。
Okay, let's forget about that she didn't close a single deal.
好吧，让我们忘记她没有达成任何交易。
Okay, so objectively, in sales, should you retain your job in sales if you can't close a single deal?
好吧，客观地说，在销售领域，如果你无法完成一笔交易，你应该保留销售工作吗？
I don't want to get into some of the triggering things, but remember, if you hire someone and they fail, it's all your fault.
我不想讨论一些触发因素，但请记住，如果你雇用了某人而他们失败了，那都是你的错。
She didn't know what she was getting herself into.
她不知道自己陷入了什么境地。
No candidates can do enough diligence ever.
没有候选人能够做到足够的勤奋。
There's not enough time.
时间不够了。
There isn't enough time.
时间不够。
Jason Lemkin: And this is true all the way to the top.
杰森·莱姆金：从高层到高层都是如此。
And so, as an investor, a board member, it's funny, when I do interviews, I do this thing, I try to be the last interview sometimes, and the founders don't want me to do it.
所以，作为一名投资者、一名董事会成员，这很有趣，当我接受采访时，我会做这件事，有时我会尝试成为最后一次接受采访，但创始人不希望我这样做。
They want me to sell.
他们要我卖掉。
I don't want to be the last one.
我不想成为最后一个。
And what I want to do is when, Lenny, you've decided to join Ellen at her startup, right?
我想做的是，莱尼，你决定加入艾伦的初创公司，对吗？
At the end, I said, "Look, Lenny, I've talked to Ellen, she loves you.
最后，我说：“听着，莱尼，我已经和艾伦谈过了，她爱你。
You have the job.
你有这份工作。
You've got the job.
你得到了这份工作。
What I don't want you to do, Lenny is bouncing three months after.
我不想让你做的事，三个月后莱尼就跳槽了。
So let's slow down, let's talk about the questions you have on your mind, and let's have a safe space where we can make sure you're going to be happy and successful there." Right?
所以，让我们放慢速度，谈谈你心中的问题，让我们有一个安全的空间，确保你在那里会快乐和成功。”对吗？
Jason Lemkin: And sometimes even the founders get mad at me for doing this, because sometimes, the candidate bails.
杰森·莱姆金：有时连创始人也会因为我这样做而生气，因为有时候选人会放弃。
But I'm like, "I know you're mad at me today, but it is your fault.
但我想，“我知道你今天生我的气，但这是你的错。
A hundred percent your fault if any of your hires fail.
如果你的任何一个员工失败了，那百分百是你的错。
Don't blame them.
不要责怪他们。
And I'm guilty of this.
我对此感到内疚。
I get upset when people start and they don't give it their all or they don't do it.
当人们开始但没有全力以赴或不去做时，我会感到沮丧。
I mean, what if you hired someone for your podcast and they decided, "You know what?
我的意思是，如果你雇了一个人来制作你的播客，而他们决定，“你知道吗？
I don't want to do the podcast this week.
这周我不想做播客。
I'm tired.
我累了。
I'll do it..." You're so mad at them, but you should've seen it during the hiring process.
我会做到的......”你对他们很生气，但你应该在招聘过程中看到这一点。
Right?
正确的？
Jason Lemkin: So, tying it back, that's why you've got to do this, "Sell me this pen." You've got to, before you hire the salesperson, have them sell your product real.
杰森·莱姆金：所以，把它绑起来，这就是为什么你必须这样做，“把这支笔卖给我。”在雇用销售人员之前，您必须让他们真实地销售您的产品。
Do the demo.
做演示。
And if they need more time, give them more time.
如果他们需要更多时间，就给他们更多时间。
Let them watch another demo.
让他们观看另一个演示。
Don't have them feel like it's a trap or spook them.
不要让他们觉得这是一个陷阱或吓到他们。
Treat them the way you would like to be treated.
以您希望被对待的方式对待他们。
But if you skip this step, I mean, what's the point?
但如果你跳过这一步，我的意思是，有什么意义呢？
You're not helping them.
你没有帮助他们。
Lenny: What I love about this process is it connects exactly to what you recommended you look for in these hires is, "Would I buy my product from these people?" So this makes a lot of sense.
莱尼：我喜欢这个过程的地方在于，它与您建议在这些员工中寻找的内容完全相关：“我会从这些人那里购买我的产品吗？”所以这很有意义。
And you give them this assignment at home and they do work on this and they come in, right?
你在家给他们布置这个作业，他们就会做这件事，然后他们就会进来，对吗？
It's not like come to the office?
这不像是来办公室吗？
Jason Lemkin: If you talk to a great transactional VP of sales that's hiring tons of reps that do it, they'll make them do...
Jason Lemkin：如果你与一位优秀的销售副总裁交谈，他雇佣了大量的销售代表，他们会让他们这样做......
If they're still doing this, they'll make you sell the pen fast in the process.
如果他们仍然这样做，他们会让你在此过程中快速卖掉钢笔。
They don't have time.
他们没有时间。
They're doing 20 interviews a week, 30 interviews a week, you've got to sell me this pen.
他们每周进行 20 次采访，每周 30 次采访，你必须把这支笔卖给我。
But if you're a founder and I'm talking about you've already talked to a bunch of candidates, you're down to one or two, make them, tell them, "Look, this isn't a trick.
但如果你是一位创始人，我说的是你已经与一群候选人交谈过，那么你只剩下一两个候选人，让他们告诉他们，“看，这不是一个把戏。
I'm not that great at telling my product myself, but I got to know that you're going to be happy and successful here.
我自己不太擅长讲述我的产品，但我知道你会在这里快乐和成功。
So do a demo for me."
那么为我做一个演示吧。”
Jason Lemkin: And if they won't do it, they're not a salesperson.
Jason Lemkin：如果他们不这样做，他们就不是销售人员。
And too many people went into sales, not...
太多人从事销售，而不是...
The other weird thing about B2B sales in good times is actually, a lot of these folks are not really what you might think as salespeople.
事实上，在繁荣时期，B2B 销售的另一个奇怪之处是，这些人中的很多人并不是你想象中的销售人员。
They can't do outbound, they can't pick up the phone.
他们无法出站，也无法接电话。
All they know how to do is to manage leads that come in and say, "I want to buy today." And you need those people, too.
他们所知道的就是管理那些进来并说“我今天想买”的潜在客户。你也需要这些人。
Okay?
好的？
And I'm not saying you don't need those people, too, but that's not always what we think of as sales.
我并不是说你也不需要这些人，但这并不总是我们所认为的销售。
Lenny: Another black box for me, and I think a lot of people with sales, is comp and quota, had actually set up their comp for early hires, and then how to actually decide on a quota.
莱尼：对我来说，另一个黑匣子，我认为很多从事销售的人，是薪酬和配额，实际上已经为早期员工设置了薪酬，然后如何实际决定配额。
What advice do you have for figuring that out early on?
对于尽早解决这个问题，您有什么建议？
What percentage is commission, what percentage is salary?
佣金是多少百分比，工资是多少百分比？
All that-
所有这一切——
Jason Lemkin: Yeah, everyone gets this wrong.
杰森·莱姆金：是的，每个人都错了。
We worry...
我们担心...
Look, at scale, when you're extremely mature, extremely mature, and very profitable, you really got to tweak this stuff very carefully, and we could talk about that if it's relevant.
看看，从规模上看，当你非常成熟、非常成熟并且非常有利可图时，你真的必须非常仔细地调整这些东西，如果相关的话我们可以讨论这一点。
But, in the beginning, we get this all wrong.
但是，一开始我们就搞错了。
What matters is, can a sales rep close more than they take home?
重要的是，销售代表的成交额能否超过他们带回家的金额？
In the very beginning, that's all that matters.
从一开始，这就是最重要的。
It's just you selling, right?
就你一个人在卖，对吧？
Jason Lemkin: The first three months of a new rep, you're lucky if they can close as much as their take-home pay is, their OT.
Jason Lemkin：新销售代表的前三个月，如果他们能够完成与他们的实得工资（加班费）一样多的工作，那你就很幸运了。
And so, in the really early days, my early, early day comp plan is, look, your first three months, you keep a hundred percent of what you close.
因此，在非常早期的日子里，我早期的补偿计划是，看，你的前三个月，你可以保留你所关闭的百分之一百。
Of course, that's not profitable for the business, but you've got to invest in them, right?
当然，这对企业来说是无利可图的，但你必须投资它们，对吗？
You keep a hundred percent of what you close.
您可以百分百保留您关闭的内容。
And if you have enough going on in your business, usually, that's enough to put supper on the stove.
如果你的生意有足够多的事情，通常就足够在炉子上准备晚饭了。
Jason Lemkin: No, no. You pick an OT, a salary, but you got to...
杰森·莱姆金：不，不。你选择加班、工资，但你必须...
Okay, let's step back for a minute.
好吧，让我们退后一步。
You got to pay market.
你必须支付市场费用。
You got to pay market.
你必须支付市场费用。
And in the early days, if you're bootstrapped or really lean, this stresses folks out.
在早期，如果你自力更生或非常瘦身，这会给人们带来压力。
I just talked to this great rep, Lenny, but he wants 150k OTE.
我刚刚和这位伟大的代表 Lenny 谈过，但他想要 150k OTE。
And in fact, it's a step down.
事实上，这是一种退步。
He had 170k at Slack, but he knows this isn't a startup.
他在 Slack 拥有 17 万美元，但他知道这不是一家初创公司。
He wants 100.
他想要100个。
He might take 140.
他可能需要140。
Lenny: And OTE is total comp, overall total comp.
Lenny：OTE 是总补偿，总体总补偿。
Jason Lemkin: Total comp.
杰森·莱姆金：总补偿。
And the founder panics.
创始人感到恐慌。
"I don't have, I'm only making 60.
“我没有，我只赚了60。
How can I pay 140?" Well, let's break it down for a minute.
我怎么付140？”好吧，让我们分解一下。
First of all, let's be tactical.
首先，我们要注重战术。
It's usually 50/50, right?
通常是 50/50，对吗？
50% base, 50% bonus for a sales rep.
50% 为基础，50% 为销售代表奖金。
So they're really only taking home a 70k base, trying to make another 70.
所以他们实际上只拿回了 70k 垒，并试图再取得 70 垒。
Okay?
好吧？
Then 70 divided by 12, help me do my math.
然后70除以12，帮我算一下。
It's not quite 6k month.
一个月还不到6k。
Well, maybe with taxes it is.
嗯，也许是因为税收。
You're really only paying 6k a month for a couple months to see if this experiment works out.
实际上，您只需每月支付 6000 美元，持续几个月即可看看这个实验是否成功。
You're investing 20,000, you don't have $20,000 to do sales?
你投资了20,000，你没有20,000美元来做销售？
Then don't do sales, if you can't find $20,000.
如果你找不到 20,000 美元，那就不要做销售。
So people freak out too much about this comp-line number, this base and bonus, the on-target earnings, OTE, and they're not more practical about what am I committing to cash upfront?
因此，人们对这个补偿线数字、这个基数和奖金、目标收益、OTE 感到过于恐惧，而他们对于我要预先承诺的现金的内容却没有更实际的了解？
Jason Lemkin: Two, you need a plan where it's a win-win.
杰森·莱姆金：第二，你需要一个双赢的计划。
So if this person makes 140, but ultimately, a sales rep's got to bring in four to five times what they take home.
因此，如果这个人赚了 140，但最终销售代表的收入必须是他们带回家的四到五倍。
That 140's got to be 500, 600 or more.
140 必须是 500、600 或更多。
The more enterprise you are, the bigger the multiple has to be, and the higher the comp.
你越有进取心，倍数就越大，薪酬也越高。
But it's got to be 3x to 5x at a minimum, 3x for small businesses, 4x for mid-market, 5...
但至少必须是 3 到 5 倍，小型企业为 3 倍，中端市场为 4 倍，5...
You got to get there, but you don't have to be there on day one and two.
你必须到达那里，但你不必在第一天和第二天都在那里。
When you get there, the reps should be accretive, shouldn't they be?
当你到达那里时，销售代表应该会有所增加，不是吗？
If they make 150 and they bring in 450, unless your marketing costs are out of control, which can happen, but that's not sales fault is it?
如果他们赚 150 美元，收入 450 美元，除非你的营销成本失控，这种情况可能会发生，但这不是销售错误，不是吗？
If your marketing costs are reasonable and you pay a sales rep 150 for closing 450, if you engineer your plan right, you should be smiling, not frowning.
如果您的营销成本合理，并且您向销售代表支付 150 美元以完成 450 美元的交易，如果您的计划正确，您应该微笑，而不是皱眉。
Jason Lemkin: Where it gets tough is when you have a ton of folks not closing.
Jason Lemkin：当你有很多人没有关闭时，事情就变得困难了。
When you have a ton of folks not closing and you have extremely high marketing costs, then it all breaks.
当你有很多人没有关闭并且你的营销成本非常高时，一切都会破裂。
Your cap breaks, your payback period breaks.
你的上限打破了，你的投资回收期也打破了。
But, if you have inbound leads, if you have demand, and you have sales reps that can sell you this pen, they're going to be accretive, Lenny, because of that math.
但是，如果你有入站线索，如果你有需求，并且你有销售代表可以向你出售这支钢笔，那么莱尼，由于这一数学原理，他们将会增值。
And take the pressure off, don't make them close 5x their take on their first quarter, make them close 1x.
减轻压力，不要让他们在第一季度接近 5 倍，而是让他们接近 1 倍。
Let them put points on board, let them eat.
让他们在船上积分，让他们吃饭。
And so negotiating, here's the point if you think about it.
所以谈判，如果你想一想，这就是要点。
Negotiating someone down from a 150k OTE to 130, it's not going to make any difference.
通过谈判将某人的 OTE 从 150k 降到 130，这不会产生任何影响。
You want them to close 600 or 700.
你希望他们收盘 600 或 700。
It's not going to matter.
没关系。
Jason Lemkin: At scale, does it matter?
Jason Lemkin：从规模上看，这重要吗？
For Mongo maybe.
也许对于蒙戈来说。
Maybe.
或许。
But, what you care about is how much more can they close and they bring in?
但是，你关心的是他们能关闭并带来多少新产品？
And then you, that's why you want them to make a lot of money.
然后你，这就是为什么你希望他们赚很多钱。
You want them to be rich.
你希望他们变得富有。
You want them to take home a lot for a whole bunch of reasons.
出于各种各样的原因，你希望他们带很多东西回家。
And so, don't freak out about the acronym OTE, what they take home.
因此，不要对缩写 OTE 感到害怕，他们带回家的东西。
Figure out what it's really going to cost you and would you buy from them?
弄清楚你真正要花多少钱，你会从他们那里购买吗？
And if you would, they're probably going to bring in more than they take home.
如果你愿意的话，他们带回家的可能比带回家的还要多。
Right?
正确的？
And on the marketing side, in early days, you're lucky if you can find a marketing channel that is that accretive.
在营销方面，在早期，如果你能找到一个具有增值作用的营销渠道，那你就很幸运了。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
So just to summarize, you start a sales person with, say, 75k in salary and then say 75k in expected sales.
总而言之，您以 75k 的薪水开始一名销售人员，然后说预期销售额为 75k。
And they take-
他们采取——
Lenny: Bonus from sales and the the idea there is they take 100% initially of their sales, for the first month or two, just to make it feel amazing.
Lenny：来自销售的奖金和他们的想法是，他们最初一两个月就拿走 100% 的销售额，只是为了让人感觉很棒。
They're making money.
他们正在赚钱。
See how they're doing, don't put a lot of pressure on them.
看看他们过得怎么样，不要给他们太大的压力。
And then the plan is, over time, get it to a point where they're bringing into the business four to five times what they're taking home in terms of bonus.
然后计划是，随着时间的推移，让他们为公司带来的奖金是他们带回家的四到五倍。
Lenny: I set expectations every month or two, or is it every quarter?
莱尼：我每隔一两个月设定一次预期，还是每个季度设定一次？
We're going to revisit your comp and quota and adjust.
我们将重新审视您的薪酬和配额并进行调整。
Jason Lemkin: If you get it right, you never have to revisit it.
Jason Lemkin：如果你做对了，你就永远不必重新审视它。
Not for years.
好几年了。
I mean, I'm using the same sales comp plan I have for a lot of years.
我的意思是，我多年来一直使用相同的销售补偿计划。
It still works.
它仍然有效。
Listen, you can make tweaks and you've got to listen, and we're all human beings.
听着，你可以做出调整，但你必须倾听，我们都是人类。
And people, and again, remember, your sales team has to eat.
人们再次记住，你的销售团队必须吃饭。
They've got to eat, okay?
他们得吃饭，好吗？
And you've got to be somewhat competitive.
而且你必须具有一定的竞争力。
But, there's only so much you can tweak, Lenny.
但是，你能调整的就这么多了，莱尼。
I mean, they have to bring, close more than they bring home.
我的意思是，他们带来的东西比他们带回家的东西还要多。
Right?
正确的？
Jason Lemkin: And so, you can make tweaks at the margin.
Jason Lemkin：所以，你可以在边际上进行调整。
The problem is if you make too many tweaks to this model, you burn up all the cash.
问题是，如果你对这个模型进行太多调整，你就会耗尽所有现金。
You're trying to plug a leaky boat, there's no point.
你试图堵住漏水的船，这是没有意义的。
There's no point.
没有意义。
There's no point.
没有意义。
And remember, related to this, for a long time, for most folks, unless you're, even if you're hyper funded, you're better off with fewer, better reps than more reps.
请记住，与此相关的是，在很长一段时间内，对于大多数人来说，除非你有足够的资金，否则即使你资金充足，你也会比更多的代表更好地获得更少、更好的代表。
Jason Lemkin: There is a stage when you get big enough where this concept of capacity planning really does matter.
Jason Lemkin：当你变得足够大时，容量规划的概念确实会变得很重要。
Lenny, if I got to go from 50 to 100 this year, okay?
Lenny，如果我今年能从 50 增加到 100，可以吗？
I'm going to add 50 million.
我要加5000万。
If each of my reps can do 500k, I need a hundred, don't I?
如果我的每个代表都能完成 50 万次，那么我需要一百次，不是吗？
Okay.
好的。
And literally, if you have 20, you mathematically cannot hit the plan.
从字面上看，如果你有 20 个，从数学上讲你就无法实现计划。
So there's a certain truth at scale.
因此，从规模上看，这是有一定道理的。
In the early days, this is a rookie error.
在早期，这是一个菜鸟错误。
I'd much rather have two reps, each closing a million than 20 reps struggling to close 100k each.
我宁愿有两名代表，每人完成一百万，也不愿让 20 名代表，每人努力完成 10 万。
Culturally, it's terrible.
从文化上来说，这是很可怕的。
There's no domain knowledge in the company.
公司里没有领域知识。
Everyone's miserable, everyone's fighting.
每个人都很痛苦，每个人都在战斗。
Jason Lemkin: What you want to do in the early days is concentrate your leads and your best closers, at the same time, bringing new people up.
贾森·莱姆金（Jason Lemkin）：早期你想做的就是集中你的线索和最好的终结者，同时培养新人。
But you've got to concentrate your leads to your best closers.
但你必须将你的线索集中到你最好的终结者身上。
And that means year two, year three, year four, they should be making a lot of money.
这意味着第二年、第三年、第四年，他们应该赚很多钱。
Lot of money, sometimes too much.
很多钱，有时太多。
I remember the first investment I ever made was a company called Pipedrive, which sold for a billion and a half.
我记得我做的第一笔投资是一家叫 Pipedrive 的公司，它的售价是 10 亿美元。
SMB CRM, and I put in the first sales rep there.
SMB CRM，我在那里安排了第一位销售代表。
He used to work for me.
他曾经为我工作。
And the founders got mad at him.
创始人对他很生气。
They got mad at him, because in three months, he was making more than any of the founders.
他们对他很生气，因为在三个月内，他赚的钱比任何创始人都多。
They were pissed.
他们很生气。
Jason Lemkin: I'm like, "Guys, I know we're have different backgrounds and cultures, but this is what you want." But it took them a long time culturally as self-serve...
杰森·莱姆金：我想，“伙计们，我知道我们有不同的背景和文化，但这就是你们想要的。”但他们在文化上花了很长时间才成为自助服务......
Because Pipedrive was 100% self-serve at the time.
因为 Pipedrive 当时是 100% 自助服务。
They'd never had a sales rep.
他们从来没有销售代表。
And I put the guy in, and what he did was he went and he looked, all these self-serve customers, he's like, this was the company was about two million revenue at the time.
我让那个人进来，他所做的就是他去看了所有这些自助服务的顾客，他就像，这家公司当时的收入约为 200 万美元。
And he's like, "Okay, who's bought more than one seat?" He just did a reverse sort and he called them.
他说：“好吧，谁买了不止一个座位？”他只是做了相反的排序，然后给他们打电话。
Jason Lemkin: I remember he called AOL back in the day and he's like, "You guys have 20 seats of Pipedrive.
Jason Lemkin：我记得那天他给 AOL 打电话，他说：“你们有 20 个 Pipedrive 席位。
Would you like to buy more for your sales team?" They're like, "Thank you very much.
您想为您的销售团队购买更多产品吗？”他们就像是，“非常感谢你。
We'll take 100 seats." And he just went down the list, from the top to the bottom, and he took home 20% of those deals.
我们将占据 100 个席位。”他只是顺着名单从上往下走，就拿走了其中 20% 的交易。
Now that difference, that extra 80 seats at AOL, he brought it in.
现在，AOL 的额外 80 个席位这一差异是他带来的。
So Kim, keeping 20% of that is a great deal for the company, right?
那么 Kim 保留其中 20% 对公司来说是一笔很大的交易，对吗？
But he was pretty good at it and he was the only person for a while, so he made hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars when the poor company, the founders were paying themselves 50.
但他很擅长，而且有一段时间他是唯一的人，所以当这家可怜的公司创始人给自己支付 50 美元时，他赚了数十万美元。
Lenny: So your advice there is don't be sad if your salesperson is making tons of money.
莱尼：所以你的建议是，如果你的销售人员赚了很多钱，不要伤心。
Jason Lemkin: If you architect the simple sales fund we talked about, and they're making a lot of money, you're making a lot of money, and your equity is worth a lot of money, your equity is worth a lot of money.
杰森·莱姆金：如果你设计了我们谈到的简单销售基金，他们赚了很多钱，你也赚了很多钱，你的股权也值很多钱，你的股权也值很多钱。
Right?
正确的？
Lenny: When do you make that switch from they're taking home 100% of what they're selling to smaller percentage?
莱尼：你什么时候才能从 100% 销售的商品带回家转变为较小比例的带回家？
Jason Lemkin: Look, some people are going to think it's goofy what I said about 100.
Jason Lemkin：听着，有些人会认为我所说的 100 很愚蠢。
I just view it as a simple ramp.
我只是将其视为一个简单的坡道。
I think you do it for one quarter max.
我认为你最多只做四分之一。
One quarter.
四分之一。
The problem is if you let this go for too long, more than a quarter, if you make it too easy for long a quarter, the problem is the mediocre lean into it too much, and that doesn't help.
问题是，如果你让这种情况持续太久，超过一个季度，如果你在一个季度的时间里让它变得太容易，问题是平庸的倾向太多，而这无济于事。
And not only does it not help you, it doesn't help them.
它不仅对你没有帮助，对他们也没有帮助。
You don't want to make mishires.
你不想制造米夏尔。
They're so damn...
他们太可恶了...
I mean, you could have a whole podcast only just on mishires.
我的意思是，你可以只播放有关米郡的完整播客。
It's probably the single most important thing in scaling startups.
这可能是扩大初创公司规模的最重要的事情。
It's not hires, it's mishires.
这不是雇员，而是米夏尔。
Jason Lemkin: It's a tragedy if you mis-hire a rep, but you don't want them there six months.
Jason Lemkin：如果你错误地聘用了一名销售代表，但又不想让他们在那里待六个月，那将是一场悲剧。
It's not good for them either.
这对他们来说也不好。
You want to support them, you want to help them find a place where they're successful.
你想支持他们，你想帮助他们找到成功的地方。
And here's the quirky thing on the mishires, and this is why that first guy I hired was mid-pack.
这就是米郡的奇怪之处，这就是为什么我雇用的第一个人是中等水平的人。
He was less than mid-pack.
他的成绩还不到中等水平。
Here's the thing about sales is, someone can be very good in certain sales environments and completely fail in other ones, completely fail.
关于销售的事情是，有人可能在某些销售环境中非常出色，但在其他销售环境中完全失败，彻底失败。
It's probably more binary than any other function.
它可能比任何其他函数都更加二元化。
And so you got to find it before you hire them, but you also got to root it out fast, because those leads are too precious.
因此，你必须在雇用他们之前找到它，但你也必须快速将其根除，因为这些线索太宝贵了。
Jason Lemkin: And it doesn't mean they won't go on to another company and be wildly successful, but you could utterly fail.
杰森·莱姆金：这并不意味着他们不会去另一家公司并取得巨大成功，但你可能会彻底失败。
And the one related point I'll give, if I had to throw one hint on this first, any of these reps, first 10 and VP of sales, one hint more than anything else, trust...
我要给出的一个相关点是，如果我必须首先对此提出一个提示，那么这些代表中的任何一个，前 10 名和销售副总裁，比其他任何事情都更重要的一个提示，相信......
got to hire someone whose last product was harder to sell.
必须雇用最后一个产品更难销售的人。
This is so important.
这非常重要。
This is a recipe for utter disaster.
这是彻底灾难的根源。
If you've, take someone in sales and their last product was easier to sell, they will have none of the skills to sell your product.
如果你有一个销售人员，而他们的最后一个产品更容易销售，那么他们将没有任何技能来销售你的产品。
But, this is the...
但是，这就是...
and I'll give you an example in a second.
我很快就会给你举一个例子。
Jason Lemkin: If you hire someone from something that was just a smidge harder, a smidge harder to sell, and they come into your company, it's like they're on Mars.
杰森·莱姆金（Jason Lemkin）：如果你从更难、更难推销的行业雇用某人，然后他们进入你的公司，就像他们在火星上一样。
It's like weight has been released from their feet.
就好像脚上的重量被释放了。
They learned how to sell a harder product and get it done, and then they come to you.
他们学会了如何销售更难的产品并完成它，然后他们来找你。
And the first example I had, the first SDR I hired was a guy named Sam Blond, who went on to be CRO at Brex, and then now is a partner at Founders Fund.
我举的第一个例子是，我聘用的第一个 SDR 是一个名叫 Sam Blond 的人，他后来担任 Brex 的 CRO，现在是 Founders Fund 的合伙人。
We worked together from the very beginning, first SDR.
我们从一开始就合作，首先是特别提款权。
And he came, before that, he was an SDR at a company called Intacct, which was bought for a billion, which was online financials.
然后他来了，之前他是一家叫Intacct的公司的SDR，这家公司是10亿买的，就是在线金融。
Okay?
好的？
Jason Lemkin: And back in the day, we know what the one thing people didn't want to put in their cloud was?
Jason Lemkin：过去，我们知道人们不想放入云中的一件事是什么？
Their financial statements, okay?
他们的财务报表，好吗？
It just wasn't trusted that.
只是人们不相信这一点。
There are some things you would trust to the cloud, like A CRM, but they'd be like, "These are my crown jewels.
有些东西你会信任云，比如 CRM，但他们会说，“这些是我皇冠上的宝石。
I can't put these..." So he went from desperately trying to convince folks to move a business process to the cloud.
我不能把这些......”所以他从拼命地试图说服人们将业务流程转移到云端。
They had no interest.
他们没有兴趣。
And he came to us, and it was hard, but it wasn't that hard.
他来到我们身边，这很困难，但也没那么难。
And he instantly was number one.
他立即成为第一。
He went from SDR to SMB-AE to mid-market AE to director of sales, to head of this whole sale...
他从 SDR 到 SMB-AE，再到中端市场 AE，再到销售总监，再到整个销售主管……
Jason Lemkin: Because, I mean, there are many reasons he was great, but he came to me and I said, "Sam, why are you crushing it when everyone else here is struggling?" He's like, "This is much easier than Intacct." So hire someone like that and don't make...
杰森·莱姆金：因为，我的意思是，他之所以伟大有很多原因，但他来找我，我说，“山姆，为什么当这里的其他人都在挣扎时，你却要压垮他呢？”他说，“这比 Intacct 容易多了。”所以雇用这样的人，不要让...
No matter how much you like them, the sell me this pen thing will control for it a bit, okay?
不管你有多喜欢它们，卖给我这支笔就能控制一点，好吗？
But, when we give, we give, we give in the hiring process.
但是，当我们付出时，我们付出，我们在招聘过程中付出。
We never give what we want.
我们从不给予我们想要的东西。
Be very, very careful if the last product was easier to sell.
如果最后的产品更容易销售，请务必非常小心。
Lenny: I love this advice.
莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。
What is a heuristic that the last product was harder to sell than yours?
上一个产品比你的产品更难销售的启发是什么？
What tells you that that's probably true?
什么告诉你这可能是真的？
Jason Lemkin: Be very careful if it was more technical, very technical.
Jason Lemkin：如果内容更具技术性、非常技术性，请务必小心。
Some folks can go from a business process sale.
有些人可以从业务流程销售中走出来。
They can go from selling a Gong or a sales software and outreach, and they can go sell a complicated API to VPs of engineering or VPs of product, but most can't.
他们可以从销售Gong或销售软件和外展开始，他们可以向工程副总裁或产品副总裁销售复杂的API，但大多数人不能。
Okay?
好的？
So more technical is a tough heuristic.
因此，更多的技术性是一个艰难的启发。
More competitive is a positive.
更具竞争力是积极的。
What really works, Lenny, is if you hire someone from the number four in the space and they did well.
莱尼，真正有效的是，如果你聘请了该领域排名第四的人，并且他们做得很好。
You take someone that was number four in the space and then you're number two in the space?
你选择了一个在这个领域排名第四的人，然后你在这个领域排名第二？
You think number two's really hard because number one's crushing you?
你认为第二名真的很难，因为第一名压垮了你？
But they're at number four in a space where no one can tell the difference between these products?
但它们在一个没有人能区分这些产品之间差异的领域中排名第四？
That's a great one, right?
这是一件很棒的事，对吧？
So a space that's more competitive, a space that is a positive, more technical.
因此，这是一个更具竞争力的空间，一个积极、更具技术性的空间。
Jason Lemkin: The other one related to technical, on the pure B2B side, is much more complicated business process.
Jason Lemkin：另一个与技术相关的问题，在纯粹的 B2B 方面，是更加复杂的业务流程。
I see folks fail in B2B when they've sold us...
我看到人们在 B2B 领域失败了，因为他们卖掉了我们……
Yeah, it's hard, but they've sold a simple business process.
是的，这很难，但他们出售了一个简单的业务流程。
They go to something that's got a lot of integrations, a lot of complexity, and a lot of business process change, and they just melt because it's too complicated.
他们选择了一些需要大量集成、复杂性和业务流程变化的东西，但他们只是因为太复杂而消失了。
They just melt, right?
它们只是融化了，对吧？
There's a company I invested in, it's doing over 20 million today.
我投资了一家公司，现在营业额超过2000万。
And for some reason, to simplify what they do, which is pretty complicated, they called it the Gong for X.
出于某种原因，为了简化他们所做的事情（这相当复杂），他们将其称为“Gong for X”。
Okay?
好吧？
The Gong for X.
X 的锣。
Jason Lemkin: And it's great to get a VC meeting and a few other, but it's not even on their homepage, okay?
Jason Lemkin：能召开 VC 会议和其他一些会议真是太好了，但这甚至不在他们的主页上，好吗？
It doesn't really make sense.
这确实没有意义。
And the CEO had me listen to this senior sales exec he hired, and the only thing he could tell the prospect was that they were Gong for X.
首席执行官让我听听他雇用的这位高级销售主管的讲话，他唯一能告诉潜在客户的是，他们是 X 的龚。
And the prospect kept asking, "Well, how does this deep integration with this business process flow and Zendesk works, and how does this go over to Salesforce?" He's like, "Well, we're Gong for X." That $600,000 deal was lost.
潜在客户不断地问：“那么，与业务流程和 Zendesk 的深度集成如何运作，以及如何转移到 Salesforce？”他说：“好吧，我们是 X 的锣。”那笔 60 万美元的交易失败了。
Right?
正确的？
Jason Lemkin: But, maybe that works in some space, right?
杰森·莱姆金：但是，也许这在某些领域有效，对吧？
And Gong's hard to sell today, too, don't get me wrong.
而且今天龚也很难卖，别误会我的意思。
But you see my point, it's just that simplicity, it's too complicated, right?
但你明白我的意思了，就是这么简单，太复杂了，对吧？
And I know it's not the perfect heuristic, other than this technical thing, but the technical one, man, trust me.
我知道这不是完美的启发式，除了技术性的东西，但是技术性的，伙计，相信我。
Too many B2B type reps melt in B2D.
太多 B2B 类型的代表融入了 B2D。
They just melt.
它们只是融化了。
They just, selling to VP of eng is a different...
他们只是，卖给工程副总裁是不同的......
It's the same beast, but they don't suffer fools, do they?
虽然是同一头野兽，但他们不会受愚弄，不是吗？
Not the VP of engineerings I'm close.
我不是工程副总裁。
They don't suffer fools.
他们不会忍受傻瓜。
Lenny: I haven't heard this term, B2D before, business to developers.
Lenny：我以前没听说过这个词，B2D，商业对开发者。
Lenny: I imagine that what it stands for.
莱尼：我想这就是它代表的意思。
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Haven't heard that term before.
以前没听说过这个词。
Okay, let me zoom out a bit and I want to move on to a different topic.
好吧，让我缩小一点，我想转向另一个话题。
But before we do that, so we've talked about kind of these early days of hiring your first two reps, getting your VP of sales to help scale out the team.
但在此之前，我们已经讨论过雇佣前两名销售代表、让销售副总裁帮助扩大团队规模的早期情况。
To give people a sense of where this goes, as the business scales, what does the org evolution look like?
为了让人们了解随着业务规模的扩大，组织的演变会是什么样子？
You have these two reps doing sales on their own, then you have a manager.
你有这两个代表自己做销售，然后你有一个经理。
What does it look like over the next couple phases of the sales org?
销售组织接下来的几个阶段会是什么样子？
Jason Lemkin: Look, to simplify, there's rules of eight.
Jason Lemkin：看，为了简化，有八个规则。
So in sales, I'm actually not sure what the tip of heuristic is in product, because product teams are leaner, at least I hope.
所以在销售方面，我实际上不确定产品中的启发式技巧是什么，因为产品团队更精简，至少我希望如此。
I like it when they're leaner.
我喜欢他们瘦一点的时候。
But the thing about sales is there's no efficiency.
但销售的问题是没有效率。
If you have a sales-led motion, half your company is going to be in sales at 10 millionaire, half your company is going to be in sales at 50, half your company is going to be in sales at 100.
如果你有一个以销售为主导的动议，那么你的一半公司的销售额将达到 10 百万富翁，一半的公司的销售额将达到 50，一半的公司的销售额将达到 100。
Jason Lemkin: One of the tough parts of the software model is that there's no, there's actually almost anti-efficiencies in sales.
Jason Lemkin：软件模型的困难部分之一是，销售方面实际上几乎没有反效率。
The public companies are actually less, they have the higher CACs than startups, believe it or not, because they have so much market penetration.
不管你信不信，上市公司实际上比初创公司要少，但它们的 CAC 更高，因为它们的市场渗透率很高。
So you're going to need a lot of people.
所以你需要很多人。
And it's rules of eight, eight SDRs, outbound reps need one manager, eight AEs, eight sales execs need a director above them.
这是八个规则，八个特别提款权，外呼代表需要一名经理，八名AE，八名销售主管需要一名高于他们的总监。
Jason Lemkin: And then when you really scale, eight directors.
杰森·莱姆金：当你真正扩大规模时，会有八位导演。
You don't really ever going to have eight directors, but eight directors could have a VP or eight reports.
你实际上不会有八名董事，但八名董事可以有一名副总裁或八名报告。
And so there's rules of eight.
所以有八个规则。
If you want to build an organization on it, it's all rules of eight.
如果你想以此为基础建立一个组织，那就是八条规则。
For a while, for SDRs, thinking this was this high velocity entry-level position, people pushed it to 12.
有一段时间，对于 SDR，人们认为这是高速入门级位置，因此将其推至 12。
But the more folks I talk to today, the more I hear, everyone's reverted to eight.
但今天我和越多的人交谈，我听到的就越多，每个人都恢复到了八个。
I'd rather have fewer SDRs, having better conversations.
我宁愿拥有更少的特别提款权，更好的对话。
And so it's just, you can build your whole org with eights.
所以，你可以用八来建立你的整个组织。
Lenny: That is way too easy of an answer.
莱尼：这个答案太简单了。
So the idea there is you hire this VP of sales, then you hire six more sales reps, AEs.
因此，我们的想法是聘请这位销售副总裁，然后再聘请六名销售代表（AE）。
So what happens next?
那么接下来会发生什么呢？
You hire another-
你又雇了一个——
Lenny: And then you scale eight more reps.
莱尼：然后你再增加八次。
Jason Lemkin: And once you have eight AEs scaled, you almost always are going to start, a VP's going to already...
Jason Lemkin：一旦你扩展了 8 个 AE，你几乎总是会开始，一个 VP 已经......
A good VP of sales already be hunting two directors.
一位优秀的销售副总裁已经在寻找两名董事。
Jason Lemkin: Whether they're just split up normally, whether they're east, west is a classic way.
Jason Lemkin：无论他们是正常分开，还是东、西都是经典的方式。
Another way, you might have smaller and larger customers.
另一种方式，您可能有较小和较大的客户。
That's pretty standard, right?
这很标准，对吧？
Commercial and enterprise.
商业和企业。
But a good VP of sales, once you have, she or he has eight reports, will be bringing in two directors, or maybe two VPs if they're an SVP.
但是，一个好的销售副总裁，一旦你有八个报告，就会引入两名董事，或者如果他们是高级副总裁，可能会引入两名副总裁。
There's a lot of title-
标题有很多——
Jason Lemkin: ...
杰森·莱姆金：...
directors or maybe two VPs if they're an SVP.
董事或两名副总裁（如果他们是高级副总裁）。
There's a lot of title inflation today, which doesn't bother me nearly as much as a lot of other things we've chatted about.
今天有很多头衔膨胀，这并不像我们讨论过的许多其他事情那样困扰我。
I don't care what your title is if you'll actually do sales or do work, but yeah, we need to bring in managers at 8:00.
如果您实际上从事销售或工作，我不在乎您的头衔是什么，但是，是的，我们需要在 8:00 引入经理。
And folks that can, also, a related point is, a lot of founders were, "When will my ...
人们还可以，一个相关的观点是，很多创始人都在说，“我的......
" I really love my head of sales, but she's a stretch.
“我真的很喜欢我的销售主管，但她有点难以捉摸。
Most of them should be stretches.
其中大部分应该是伸展运动。
Jason Lemkin: If you hire the seasoned one, they're not going to work, so for 95 out of 100 of us, our first head of sales should be a stretch VP of Sales.
Jason Lemkin：如果你雇用经验丰富的人，他们就不会工作，所以对于我们 100 人中的 95 人来说，我们的第一位销售主管应该是一位资深的销售副总裁。
And what that means is, usually, they were a director before that or a senior director or sort of a VP, okay?
这意味着，通常，他们之前是董事、高级董事或副总裁，好吗？
But you should be cautious about hiring your first VP of Sales for their first third VP of Sales gig.
但是，在聘用第一位销售副总裁担任他们的第一个第三个销售副总裁时，您应该谨慎行事。
They're not willing to do the job anymore.
他们不愿意再做这项工作了。
You need a stretch and it's worth it for their career growth.
你需要伸展一下，这对于他们的职业发展来说是值得的。
It's worth it for their personal growth.
为了他们的个人成长，这是值得的。
It's worth it for the equity, right?
为了股权，这是值得的，对吧？
So you're going to hire a stretch.
所以你要雇佣一个伸展者。
That's an important tip right there.
这是一个重要的提示。
But then, you're going to be a little worried, how far can Lenny go?
但接下来，你会有点担心，莱尼能走多远？
How far can ...
能走多远...
I love Lenny, but he was a director for two years before this, and this is his first rule, and he did so good last year, but I'm worried Lenny's going to break.
我爱莱尼，但在此之前他当了两年导演，这是他的第一条规则，他去年做得很好，但我担心莱尼会打破。
I'm worried Lenny's going to break.
我担心莱尼会崩溃。
Jason Lemkin: And related to this quote, the simple answer is, Lenny will break if he can't source those directors under him.
杰森·莱姆金：与这句话相关，简单的答案是，如果莱尼无法找到他手下的董事，他就会崩溃。
You can scale forever as a sales leader if you can hire better managers under you.
如果你能在你手下聘请更好的经理，你就可以永远成为一名销售领导者。
And it's true of any functional area, but what you'll see in sales is, you'll see your stretch VP of Sales drown when they never can hire better managers under them, They'll end up doing some weird internal promotions, which you want, you want to do internal promotions.
对于任何职能领域都是如此，但你在销售中会看到的是，当你的销售副总裁永远无法聘请到更好的经理时，你会发现他们被淹没了，他们最终会进行一些奇怪的内部晋升，这是你想要的，你想要进行内部晋升。
My rule is you want to promote 50% from within and hire 50% without for your managers, but if, really, the only people you can promote are just junior people on your team, you can't find leaders, you can't scale.
我的规则是，你想从内部提拔 50% 的经理，并在外部聘用 50% 的经理，但如果你实际上唯一能提拔的人只是团队中的初级人员，那么你就找不到领导者，就无法扩大规模。
I do see this happen too frequently is, a first time out of sales, does it, and then, they're like, "Here are my managers, Lorraine and Jason, but they really were just reps for two years and they don't know how to do it." So you have a whole bunch of people who don't know how to do it.
我确实看到这种情况发生得太频繁了，第一次销售失败时，他们会说，“这是我的经理，洛林和杰森，但他们实际上只是做了两年的代表，他们不知道该怎么做。”所以有一大群人不知道该怎么做。
That's when the organization cracks.
这就是组织崩溃的时候。
Lenny: Imagine a place where you can find all your potential customers and get your message in front of them in a cost efficient way.
Lenny：想象一个地方，您可以找到所有潜在客户，并以经济高效的方式向他们传达您的信息。
If you're a B2B business, that place exists, and it's called LinkedIn.
如果您从事 B2B 业务，那么这个地方就存在，它的名字叫 LinkedIn。
LinkedIn ads allows you to build the right relationships, drive results and reach your customers in a respectful environment.
LinkedIn 广告可让您在相互尊重的环境中建立正确的关系、推动成果并吸引客户。
Two of my portfolio companies, Webflow and Census, are LinkedIn success stories.
我的投资组合中的两家公司 Webflow 和 Census 都是 LinkedIn 的成功案例。
Census had a 10x increase in pipeline with a LinkedIn startup team.
Census 与 LinkedIn 初创团队合作的渠道增加了 10 倍。
For Webflow, after ramping up on LinkedIn in Q4, they had the highest marketing source revenue quarter to date.
对于 Webflow 来说，在第四季度在 LinkedIn 上取得进展后，他们拥有了迄今为止季度最高的营销来源收入。
With LinkedIn ads, you'll have direct access to and can build relationships with decision makers, including 950 million members, 180 million senior execs, and over 10 million C-level executives.
通过 LinkedIn 广告，您将可以直接接触决策者并与其建立关系，其中包括 9.5 亿会员、1.8 亿高级管理人员以及超过 1000 万 C 级管理人员。
You'll be able to drive results with targeting and measurement tools built specifically for B2B.
您将能够利用专为 B2B 构建的定位和衡量工具来推动结果。
In tech, LinkedIn generated 2x to 5x higher return on ad spend than any other social media platforms.
在科技领域，LinkedIn 的广告支出回报率比任何其他社交媒体平台高出 2 到 5 倍。
Audiences on LinkedIn have two times the buying power of the average web audience, and you'll work with a partner who respects the B2B world you operate in.
LinkedIn 上的受众的购买力是普通网络受众的两倍，而且您将与尊重您所在 B2B 世界的合作伙伴合作。
Lenny: Make B2B marketing everything it can be and get $100 credit on your next campaign.
Lenny：尽一切可能进行 B2B 营销，并在您的下一次营销活动中获得 100 美元的积分。
Just go to linkedin.com/podlenny to claim your credit.
只需访问 linkedin.com/podlenny 即可领取您的积分。
That's linkedin.com/podlenny.
那是 linkedin.com/podlenny。
Terms and conditions apply.
条款和条件适用。
Lenny: There's these terms that we throw, around account executive reps.
莱尼：我们针对客户执行代表提出了这些术语。
It might be helpful just to give people a sense of what does this actually mean when someone's an account executive.
让人们了解当某人是客户经理时这实际上意味着什么可能会有所帮助。
Is it that they're just sitting there calling and doing sales directly?
他们只是坐在那里直接打电话做销售吗？
Whatever the key terms are for the roles or the title might be helpful to quickly summarize.
无论角色或头衔的关键术语是什么，都可能有助于快速总结。
Jason Lemkin: Yeah, I think the two ones that are probably less obvious for folks that are new are SDR, Sales development representative, and AE, account executive.
Jason Lemkin：是的，我认为对于新人来说可能不太明显的两个是 SDR（销售开发代表）和 AE（客户主管）。
Jason Lemkin: And SDR is, generally, although I wish it wasn't, it is generally an entry level position, often fresh out of school, generally paid on the order of 60K to 80K, OTE and SaaS and US-based SaaS, and their job is to email for dollars, dial for dollars, and in many cases, to screen, to screen inbound leads.
Jason Lemkin：一般来说，SDR 是，尽管我希望不是，但它通常是入门级职位，通常是刚从学校毕业的人，一般工资在 6 万到 8 万左右，OTE 和 SaaS 以及美国的 SaaS，他们的工作是通过电子邮件发送美元、拨打电话索取美元，并且在许多情况下，筛选、筛选入站潜在客户。
It's entry level, and their job is to pass on a lead to a sales executive, an account executive, an AE.
这是入门级的，他们的工作是将线索传递给销售主管、客户主管、AE。
Not all companies have SDRs.
并非所有公司都有 SDR。
It's a longer topic, but pretty much all the best teams have some type of SDR function now because we've learned we want to specialize.
这是一个较长的话题，但几乎所有最好的团队现在都拥有某种类型的 SDR 功能，因为我们知道我们想要专业化。
We want openers opening and we want closers closing, so that's the rough idea.
我们希望开启器打开，我们希望关闭器关闭，所以这就是粗略的想法。
Jason Lemkin: SDRs are openers in some cases, and account executives are the more seasoned folks closing.
Jason Lemkin：在某些情况下，特别提款权是开局者，而客户经理则是经验丰富的结束者。
And it varies, compensation from account executives that are US-based could be anywhere from like 90K to 200K, depending on, that's with base and bonus split at 50/50, depending on whether they're hunting tiny deals or big ones.
而且情况各不相同，来自美国的客户经理的薪酬可能从 9 万到 20 万不等，具体取决于他们是在寻找小交易还是大交易，基本奖金和奖金的比例为 50/50。
That's the way an account executive works.
这就是客户经理的工作方式。
And I think what doesn't happen today ...
我想今天不会发生什么......
Those are the acronyms, SDR and AE.
这些是缩写词：SDR 和 AE。
I think people can figure out VP of Sales, that's vice president of sales.
我认为人们可以找出 VP of Sales，即销售副总裁。
Jason Lemkin: I think a thing that's gone on in the industry that founders expect now because there's so much discussion of it on LinkedIn and social media, but I haven't found work, is that an account executive will magically be full stack.
Jason Lemkin：我认为行业中正在发生的事情是创始人期望的，因为 LinkedIn 和社交媒体上对此有很多讨论，但我还没有找到工作，那就是客户经理将神奇地成为全栈人员。
They will do outbound themselves, they'll go use ZoomInfo and Apollo and develop a list themselves, they'll manage that outbound list themselves.
他们将自己进行出站，他们将使用 ZoomInfo 和 Apollo 并自己开发一个列表，他们将自己管理该出站列表。
If they don't have enough inbound, in their free time, you know what they'll do, Lenny, in their free time?
如果他们在空闲时间没有足够的入境，你知道他们在空闲时间会做什么，莱尼？
They'll just do more outbound.
他们只会做更多的出境活动。
You know what sales reps do in their free time?
您知道销售代表在空闲时间做什么吗？
Today, they sell real estate or courses.
如今，他们出售房地产或课程。
Jason Lemkin: If you want a tip, for founders, I know you want this full stack AE, and they do exist when they're micromanaged in certain high performance sales organizations, but they don't exist in real life.
Jason Lemkin：如果你想给创始人一个提示，我知道你想要这个全栈 AE，当它们在某些高性能销售组织中进行微观管理时，它们确实存在，但它们在现实生活中并不存在。
They're specialized.
他们很专业。
Most AEs, they want to be closers, they want to be handed a lead, a contact me, a lead.
大多数 AE，他们想要更接近，他们想要得到一个线索，一个联系我，一个线索。
They want to work the lead and close the lead, and you hire some SDRs to help generate more demand.
他们希望发挥领先优势并缩小领先优势，而您则雇用一些特别提款权来帮助产生更多需求。
Those are the basic acronyms.
这些是基本的缩写词。
What's hard for most founders, here's the tough part, most founders have enough stamina to manage a couple of these AEs, these account executives, these folks who work the leads.
对于大多数创始人来说，最困难的部分是，大多数创始人都有足够的耐力来管理这些 AE、这些客户经理和这些领导人员。
Most founders do not have the stamina to manage 10 kids fresh out of college that need to be micromanaged on an hourly basis to call leads.
大多数创始人没有精力管理 10 个刚从大学毕业的孩子，他们需要每小时进行微观管理才能给潜在客户打电话。
Very, very few founders themselves can manage a team of SDRs, but if you can, it's like a superpower.
很少有创始人本身能够管理一个特别提款权团队，但如果你能做到，那就就像一个超级大国。
Lenny: That was really helpful.
莱尼：这真的很有帮助。
I did not know what exactly these terms represented, and when you're hiring those first two reps, they should be at the account executive level.
我不知道这些术语到底代表什么，当您雇用前两名代表时，他们应该处于客户主管级别。
Jason Lemkin: Yes.
杰森·莱姆金：是的。
And they'll do some outbound and they'll do some of this SDR work.
他们将做一些出站工作，并做一些特别提款权工作。
It's just, ultimately, people end up specializing.
只是，最终，人们最终会专业化。
Lenny: What is the title for someone above the account executive?
莱尼： 客户经理以上的职位是什么？
Is it Director of Sales?
是销售总监吗？
Jason Lemkin: Yeah.
杰森·莱姆金：是的。
There's really no ...
实在是没有...
It's a meta topic.
这是一个元主题。
I wish there were another career path for these ICs.
我希望这些 IC 有另一条职业道路。
This does exist in product, it does exist in engineering.
这确实存在于产品中，也确实存在于工程中。
It should exist in sales, but the truth is it doesn't.
它应该存在于销售中，但事实是它不存在。
There is no senior SDR for this outbound.
本次出站没有高级SDR。
And for this AE, this person closing, yes, you can go more enterprise and make more money, but there isn't really a senior AE track, but there should be.
对于这个 AE，这个人最后说，是的，你可以更加进取，赚更多的钱，但实际上并没有高级 AE 轨道，但应该有。
It's unfortunate.
很不幸。
It should be.
应该是的。
Jason Lemkin: Too many of these folks are looking for, they look to go into management for promotion when what they really should look for is to be a super IC, and it's a shame that more folks don't try to implement a super IC role in sales, but that's basically what the career path is in management.
Jason Lemkin：太多的人都在寻找，他们希望进入管理层以获得晋升，而他们真正应该寻找的是成为一名超级IC，令人遗憾的是，更多的人不尝试在销售中担任超级IC角色，但这基本上就是管理中的职业道路。
And that's why another tip, another mistake that founders often make is, they hire the number one account executive at a hot company to be their head of sales.
这就是为什么创始人经常犯的另一个提示，另一个错误是，他们聘请了一家热门公司的头号客户经理来担任他们的销售主管。
It's not the same skills.
这不是同一个技能。
Most sales executives should not be managers.
大多数销售主管不应该是经理。
They don't want to be managers.
他们不想成为经理。
They want to be individuals.
他们想成为个体。
They want to be highly paid individual contributors, these days, that mostly work from home and make a lot of money working 30 hours a week.
如今，他们希望成为高薪个人贡献者，大部分时间在家工作，每周工作 30 小时赚很多钱。
That does not naturally breed great management skills.
这并不能自然地培养出优秀的管理技能。
Lenny: I want to shift directions a little bit and talk about product and sales.
莱尼：我想稍微改变一下方向，谈谈产品和销售。
A lot of listeners of this podcast are product managers or founders building products.
该播客的许多听众都是产品经理或构建产品的创始人。
How involved should product managers be in sales.
产品经理应该如何参与销售。
And vice versa, how involved should sales be in the roadmap and what's being built?
反之亦然，销售应该如何参与路线图以及正在建设什么？
Jason Lemkin: I think, in the best run B2B organizations that I've worked with, and my own as well, the great, at least the head of product, the VP of Products, are deeply involved in sales.
Jason Lemkin：我认为，在我合作过的最好的 B2B 组织中，以及我自己的组织中，伟大的人，至少是产品主管、产品副总裁，都深入参与销售。
Deeply involved in sales.
深入参与销售工作。
Deeply involved in sales.
深入参与销售工作。
A company I invested in that's just crossing $60 million, they just had a meeting with who will be their largest customer.
我投资的一家公司刚刚超过 6000 万美元，他们刚刚与谁将成为他们最大的客户进行了会面。
And the head of product who was there at the board meeting is like, "Thank God I was there because what they want to do with our product, we sort of do.
出席董事会会议的产品负责人说：“感谢上帝，我在那里，因为他们想用我们的产品做什么，我们就做什么。
We sort of." Now, the product does do it, but what they want to basically do is deconstruct the product.
我们有点。”现在，产品确实做到了这一点，但他们基本上想做的是解构产品。
They don't actually want to use the backend and analytics and some other pieces, but they don't really need the front end of the product.
他们实际上不想使用后端和分析以及其他一些部分，但他们并不真正需要产品的前端。
If the head of product hadn't been there, that deal would've been lost.
如果产品负责人不在场，这笔交易就会失败。
It would've been lost.
它会丢失的。
Jason Lemkin: An AE doesn't know that.
Jason Lemkin：AE 不知道这一点。
Even if an AE did know that, a sales rep did know that even.
即使 AE 确实知道这一点，销售代表也确实知道这一点。
If the VP of Sales didn't know ...
如果销售副总裁不知道...
A VP of Sales would not be empowered enough to stand up in a meeting and say, "I know what you want.
销售副总裁没有足够的权力在会议上站起来说：“我知道你想要什么。
We can launch tomorrow on this and, in 90 days, we'll tweak the UI so it does exactly what you want." You want that in your big deals.
我们可以在明天推出此产品，并在 90 天内调整 UI，使其完全满足您的需求。”你希望在你的大交易中做到这一点。
If you have that magical VP of Product that truly owns the roadmap, owns it and has the gravitas for that meeting, they become like the mini CEO in these meetings.
如果你有一位神奇的产品副总裁，真正拥有路线图，拥有它，并且对这次会议有庄严的态度，他们就会在这些会议中变得像迷你首席执行官一样。
A lot of CEOs, at scale, I've talked to, I was just talking with Daniel Chait at Greenhouse, he does this, they're over $200 million, when they have that head of product, they divide and conquer with the big customers.
我和 Greenhouse 的 Daniel Chait 谈过，我和很多 CEO 谈过，他就是这样做的，他们的资产超过 2 亿美元，当他们有产品主管时，他们会与大客户分而治之。
And the CEO can do some and the VP of product can do others.
首席执行官可以做一些事情，产品副总裁可以做其他事情。
Jason Lemkin: And sometimes, the VP of Eng, if they're very producty, can also do that role too.
Jason Lemkin：有时，工程师的副总裁，如果他们非常高效，也可以担任这个角色。
Sometimes, you get these three weapons.
有时，你会得到这三种武器。
In the old days, sometimes, your VP of Customer Success could do this, but unfortunately, and I know this is going to trigger some people, I don't see customer success stepping up for this pseudo product role anymore and I see them shrinking more and more into process.
在过去，有时，您的客户成功副总裁可以做到这一点，但不幸的是，我知道这会触发一些人，我不再看到客户成功站出来担任这个伪产品角色，而且我看到他们越来越收缩到流程中。
But that magical VP product, they give you that scale, that CEO level scale.
但是那个神奇的副总裁产品，他们给你那种规模，那种首席执行官级别的规模。
Jason Lemkin: Can a product manager or a director do that?
Jason Lemkin：产品经理或总监可以做到这一点吗？
In my experience, the best ones, absolutely.
根据我的经验，绝对是最好的。
The mid-pack ones that are working on the color of the pixel, I'd rather not have them in the deal.
那些致力于像素颜色的中包，我不想让它们参与交易。
You have to be utterly fluent in the product, the entire product.
你必须完全熟悉这个产品，整个产品。
You have to be the one that knows how to connect the pieces that don't ought to always connect themselves, and you have to have the gravitas to work with a large customer, to make commitments.
你必须知道如何将那些不应该总是相互连接的部分连接起来，并且你必须有与大客户合作的庄重感，做出承诺。
That deep knowledge and commitment, it's hard below the VP level, but if it does exist, I love it.
这种深厚的知识和奉献精神，在副总裁级别以下很难实现，但如果它确实存在，我喜欢它。
They become one of the greatest strategic weapons of a B2B company is bringing the product team, because the VP of Sales never quite goes that deep and can't make the commits, and the CEO can't be everywhere.
他们成为 B2B 公司最强大的战略武器之一，因为他们带来了产品团队，因为销售副总裁从来没有那么深入，无法做出承诺，而首席执行官也不可能无处不在。
Lenny: The bane of many product managers' existence is the flip side of sales is involvement in product.
Lenny：许多产品经理存在的祸根是销售的另一面是对产品的参与。
Do you have any advice for how you've seen the best SaaS companies handle requests from sales going into product, how product teams should think about requests from sales and making that work?
对于您所看到的最好的 SaaS 公司如何处理销售请求进入产品，产品团队应如何考虑销售请求并使其发挥作用，您有什么建议吗？
Jason Lemkin: I think this one is so simple and I'm surprised people make it so complicated.
Jason Lemkin：我认为这个问题非常简单，但我很惊讶人们把它弄得如此复杂。
I know we all release 28 times a day, but the reality is, software still goes on quarterly release cycles no matter what we say, okay?
我知道我们每天都会发布 28 次，但现实是，无论我们说什么，软件仍然会按季度发布周期，好吗？
Your customers cannot process 88 releases a day, okay?
您的客户无法每天处理 88 个版本，好吗？
The maximum a customer can process is two big releases a year and maybe quarterly, so let's simplify.
客户最多可以处理每年两个大版本，也许每个季度一次，所以让我们简化一下。
That's how customers think.
客户就是这么想的。
Forget about how we build software.
忘记我们如何构建软件。
Jason Lemkin: Every quarter, give your head of sales a certain budget, whether it's story points or 10% of the pie chart, however you do it, give them a budget.
Jason Lemkin：每个季度，给你的销售主管一定的预算，无论是故事点还是饼图的 10%，无论你做什么，都要给他们一个预算。
And when you do this, things will radically change then.
当你这样做时，事情就会发生根本性的改变。
They radically change because even the best VPs of sales, they change the wind.
他们从根本上改变了，因为即使是最好的销售副总裁，他们也会改变风向。
On Monday, what they really need is the HubSpot integration.
周一，他们真正需要的是 HubSpot 集成。
And they're like, "Oh, my god.
他们就像，“哦，天哪。
We weren't going to do that for two years, but I guess we could change everything on Monday," but then, on Wednesday, a new prospect comes in and, "We need SAP, but we just spent two days spec-ing out." You need SAP.
我们两年内不会这样做，但我想我们可以在周一改变一切，”但是，周三，一位新的潜在客户进来了，“我们需要 SAP，但我们只花了两天时间进行规范。”你需要 SAP。
And then, on Monday, it's Salesforce, right?
然后，周一，是 Salesforce，对吧？
And it's not that sales isn't honest, it's just, the big deals, the big ones always, the tail's wagging the dog and it burns out the organization.
这并不是说销售人员不诚实，只是，大交易，总是大交易，尾巴在摇狗，它会耗尽组织。
Even with the best sales leaders, I find it burns out, especially because the stressful deals, they overreact, and as good as they are, they're not product people, so they don't really know how to prioritize and force rank.
即使是最好的销售领导，我也发现他们会精疲力尽，特别是因为压力很大的交易，他们反应过度，而且尽管他们很优秀，但他们不是产品人员，所以他们并不真正知道如何确定优先级和强制排名。
If you say, "Okay, Lenny, my VP of Sales, great.
如果你说：“好吧，莱尼，我的销售副总裁，太好了。
HubSpot, SAP, whatever you want, you've got 10% of the budget, you've got a hundred story points, whatever metric or heuristic you use, but you've got to decide now each quarter." And if you want to change during the course of the quarter, if you want to disrupt our whole engineering product team, you can do it, but understand there's a high cost, and the later you do it in the quarter, the less successful it's going to be because we already started the HubSpot integration.
HubSpot、SAP，无论你想要什么，你都有 10% 的预算，你有一百个故事点，无论你使用什么指标或启发法，但你现在必须每个季度做出决定。”如果你想在本季度内做出改变，如果你想扰乱我们整个工程产品团队，你可以做到，但要明白成本很高，而且在本季度做得越晚，成功率就越低，因为我们已经开始了 HubSpot 集成。
Not only will it demoralize the team, but we're going to run out of ...
这不仅会让团队士气低落，而且我们会耗尽……
You already used your budget.
您已经使用了您的预算。
Jason Lemkin: I just don't see enough product leaders being objective here, saying, "Listen, here's your budget.
Jason Lemkin：我只是没有看到足够多的产品领导者客观地说，“听着，这是你的预算。
You get it, period.
你明白了，期间。
No one can take it from you.
没有人可以从你手中夺走它。
I guess the CO can steal it if she really wants to, but it's yours, VP of Sales." And they will do the low balancing across their team.
我猜如果 CO 真的想的话，她可以偷走它，但它是你的，销售副总裁。”他们将在整个团队中进行低平衡。
They will do it.
他们会做的。
They will listen and they'll say, "Maybe I don't need that HubSpot integration after all.
他们会倾听并说：“也许我根本不需要 HubSpot 集成。
Maybe." Right?
也许吧。”正确的？
Jason Lemkin: Because what a VP of Sales should be doing is taking ...
Jason Lemkin：因为销售副总裁应该做的就是……
The CO has to look five years into the future, product has to look about two years into the future, and you really can't ask a VP of Sales to look more than 12 months into the future because that's where they're next on the line, but a good one will load balance feature requests across the year and they will listen to all the ...
CO 必须着眼于未来五年，产品必须着眼于未来两年左右，你真的不能要求销售副总裁展望超过 12 个月的未来，因为那是他们下一个上线的地方，但一个好的销售副总裁会在一年中平衡功能请求，并且他们会听取所有...
Because they'll actually be in sales, they'll actually be in deals, and they'll be listening and they'll realize, look, even though we're going to lose this deal to HubSpot, I've gotten four SAP requests the last ...
因为他们实际上会进行销售，他们实际上会进行交易，他们会倾听，他们会意识到，看，即使我们将把这笔交易输给 HubSpot，我最近收到了四个 SAP 请求......
I'm going to take that bet.
我会接受这个赌注。
Even if I'm wrong, I'm going to take that bet.
即使我错了，我也会接受这个赌注。
You got to give them that ...
你必须给他们...
And you got to talk about it every week and say, "Look, here's your budget, Jane.
你必须每周谈论它并说：“看，这是你的预算，简。
Here's your story points, your whatever, your 10%.
这是你的故事点，随便你，你的 10%。
This is what we're building now for you, objectively, and this is what we're currently planning for the next two quarters.
客观地说，这就是我们现在正在为您构建的内容，这也是我们目前正在计划的未来两个季度的内容。
Would you like to change the ones for the next two quarters?
您想在接下来的两个季度更改这些吗？
Because we haven't committed any code yet, and if you really want to change what's in process, you can.
因为我们还没有提交任何代码，如果您确实想更改正在进行的内容，您可以。
Otherwise, it's going to be hyper disruptive," but you got to at least pretend to be objective, for sales.
否则，这将具有极大的破坏性，”但为了销售，你至少必须假装客观。
Jason Lemkin: If you're too emotional about it, you break the organization.
Jason Lemkin：如果你对此过于情绪化，你就会破坏组织。
You've got to say, "Listen, I know we've already written 80% of this upside integration.
你必须说，“听着，我知道我们已经编写了 80% 的上行整合。
If you really need us to put us on the shelf and drop everything for a million dollar deal, we're a startup, we'll do it.
如果你真的需要我们把我们束之高阁，放弃一切来换取一百万美元的交易，我们是一家初创公司，我们会这么做的。
But understand, just, is this really really what you want?" And if you involve them every week as a stakeholder, magic happens.
但你要明白，这真的是你想要的吗？”如果你每周让他们作为利益相关者参与进来，奇迹就会发生。
But I don't see the VPs of Product that I work with, I know I'm not in all the staff meetings, but the meetings I'm in and the board meetings, I don't see this back and forth happening.
但我没有看到与我一起工作的产品副总裁，我知道我没有参加所有的员工会议，但我参加的会议和董事会会议，我没有看到这种来回发生。
Lenny: This might be the same exact answer you just gave, but say you're a PM and a salesperson comes to you, "Hey, we're about to close this deal.
莱尼：这可能与您刚才给出的答案完全相同，但是假设您是产品经理，销售人员来找您，“嘿，我们即将完成这笔交易。
We just need this one feature.
我们只需要这一功能。
Can we just get this on the roadmap?," what's the best way to help that sales person understand why it's not happening, help them feel like, "Okay, I get it"?
我们可以把这个放在路线图上吗？”帮助销售人员理解为什么它没有发生的最好方法是什么，帮助他们感觉“好吧，我明白了”？
Is it exactly what just said?
真的是刚才说的吗？
"Okay, we could change everything.
“好吧，我们可以改变一切。
Here's the story points you have this quarter."
这是本季度的故事要点。”
Jason Lemkin: Well, are you assuming that PM is the head of product or empowered enough to make the decisions?
Jason Lemkin：那么，您是否认为 PM 是产品负责人，或者有足够的权力做出决策？
Lenny: I'd say, yeah, that PM could put something on the roadmap if they think it's important.
Lenny：我想说，是的，如果 PM 认为重要的话，他们可以在路线图上添加一些内容。
Jason Lemkin: The reason I'm a little confused, just because I want to get it right, is what I'm hearing, which maybe isn't what you said.
Jason Lemkin：我之所以有点困惑，只是因为我想把事情搞对，这就是我所听到的，这可能不是你所说的。
What I'm hearing is, a junior IC rep is talking to a more mid-level product person about the roadmap, and you want to have that.
我听到的是，一位初级 IC 代表正在与一位中级产品人员讨论路线图，而您想要这样。
That's one of the reasons we actually go to the office.
这就是我们实际去办公室的原因之一。
Because those discussions don't happen on Zoom, Lenny.
因为这些讨论不会发生在 Zoom 上，莱尼。
They don't happen.
它们不会发生。
And you want those discussions to happen, but you don't actually want them empowered.
您希望进行这些讨论，但实际上并不希望它们被授权。
You want them to say, "Listen, I will talk to my boss." That's the right answer.
你希望他们说：“听着，我会和我的老板谈谈。”这是正确的答案。
It's too confusing.
太混乱了。
Jason Lemkin: This stress between product and sales is a good thing.
Jason Lemkin：产品和销售之间的压力是一件好事。
It's a sign of a well-run B2B company when there is stress between product and sales.
当产品和销售之间存在压力时，这是一家经营良好的 B2B 公司的标志。
It's a good sign.
这是一个好兆头。
If there's no stress, you're not in enough deals.
如果没有压力，那么你的交易就不够多。
You're not in enough deals if there's no stress.
如果没有压力，你就没有足够的交易。
But the stress has to have enough process, even in a startup, that it doesn't break because your question alludes to the fact it can break organizations again and again.
但压力必须有足够的过程，即使是在初创公司，它也不会被破坏，因为你的问题暗示了它可以一次又一次地破坏组织的事实。
People get people resented on either side.
人们都会遭到双方的怨恨。
Jason Lemkin: This is one thing where the answer has to be, "Look, we can chat about it over lunch.
杰森·莱姆金：这是一件事，答案必须是，“听着，我们可以在午餐时讨论它。
We can chat about this, and actually, you've got a good idea.
我们可以讨论一下这个问题，实际上，你有一个好主意。
You're an individual contributor.
您是个人贡献者。
I'm going to tell my boss, on Monday, that I think we should do that.
周一我会告诉我的老板，我认为我们应该这样做。
I'm going to use a little social capital and say we should do this," but you got to push the decisions up.
我将利用一点社会资本并说我们应该这样做，”但你必须推动决策。
That's as far as you're going to make recommendations.
这就是您要提出的建议。
Otherwise, instead of that one stressful conversation with the VP, you've got a hundred, you've got 10 times a hundred, and again, they're fun lunch conversations, but they'll wreck you.
否则，你就不会与副总裁进行一次压力很大的谈话，而是进行一百次、十次一百次的谈话，而且，这些谈话都是有趣的午餐谈话，但它们会毁了你。
Lenny: So the advice there is, basically, "Talk to your manager, I'll talk to my manager.
莱尼：所以建议基本上是，“和你的经理谈谈，我会和我的经理谈谈。
They need to hash this out.
他们需要解决这个问题。
It's not my call."
这不是我能决定的。”
Jason Lemkin: I think you got to push it up and I think you got to force the VP of Sales and the VP of Product to have this weekly meeting about the budget, and that will force them to have enough, just enough organization on their team so that it can all be surfaced up.
Jason Lemkin：我认为你必须推动它，我认为你必须迫使销售副总裁和产品副总裁每周召开一次有关预算的会议，这将迫使他们在团队中拥有足够的组织，以便一切都能浮出水面。
Because that means they each have to have a meeting with their team for 30 minutes each week and say, "I'm going to put up on the whiteboard guys, so my sales team's going to say ...
因为这意味着他们每个人必须每周与自己的团队开一次 30 分钟的会议，并说：“我要在白板上提出建议，所以我的销售团队会说……
And I've been to many of these meetings where you force the sales team to force rank what they want and you end up, I tell you, Lenny, 100% of the time in the sales meeting, when you do a whiteboard force rank, you end up walking out with very different outputs than when you start the meeting in sales 100% of the time.
我参加过很多这样的会议，在这些会议中，你强迫销售团队对他们想要的内容进行强制排名，最后，我告诉你，莱尼，在销售会议上，当你在白板上进行强制排名时，你最终会得到与 100% 的销售会议开始时截然不同的结果。
Jason Lemkin: On the product side, you need to do the converse.
Jason Lemkin：在产品方面，你需要做相反的事情。
You just need to say, "We owe sales 10% of our points, so in our team meeting, we're going to put in 15 minutes of our team meeting and we're going to make sure we have the priorities right from the sales team.
你只需要说，“我们欠销售 10% 的积分，所以在我们的团队会议上，我们将投入 15 分钟的团队会议，我们将确保我们从销售团队那里得到了正确的优先事项。
Let's go over what I got from Linda.
让我们回顾一下我从琳达那里得到的信息。
This is what she says.
她是这么说的。
Is she wrong?
她错了吗？
Should we do something?
我们应该做点什么吗？
How can we help the sales team be even more successful?
我们如何帮助销售团队取得更大的成功？
And what inputs is the team hearing?" And they can raise their hand and say, "Look, I just had this all the way conversation with Bobby, but honestly, Lenny, I can build a HubSpot integration in a day." "What?
团队听到了什么意见？” 他们可以举手说，“听着，我刚刚与 Bobby 进行了一路对话，但说实话，Lenny，我可以在一天内构建 HubSpot 集成。” “什么？
I thought it was really hard." "No, I did it my last company.
我觉得这真的很难。” “不，我在上一家公司就是这么做的。
And listen, actually, we can actually outsource it to Bob and Linda at this agency I know for 20 grand.
听着，实际上，我们实际上可以将其外包给我认识的这家机构的鲍勃和琳达，价格为 20 英镑。
They'll build it next week." That's a magical moment.
他们将在下周建造它。”这是一个神奇的时刻。
That's a magical moment.
那是一个神奇的时刻。
But you've got to each have these parallel meetings.
但你们必须各自召开这些并行会议。
The good thing, that tension can become debilitating.
好消息是，这种紧张感可能会让人变得虚弱。
We've all seen those fights, those almost fights that break out, and they come from a place of passion, but you got to have structure.
我们都见过那些打斗，那些差点爆发的打斗，它们来自于激情，但你必须有结构。
Lenny: Great advice.
莱尼：很好的建议。
Another trend I've been noticing is that product teams are taking on P&L responsibilities and revenue goals.
我注意到的另一个趋势是产品团队正在承担损益责任和收入目标。
What's your sense of, is that good?
你的感觉是什么，这样好吗？
Is that bad?
那很糟糕吗？
How do you think about that for product teams?
您如何看待产品团队的这一点？
Jason Lemkin: You want everyone to be aligned on the big picture revenue goal for the end of the year.
Jason Lemkin：您希望每个人都在年底的总体收入目标上保持一致。
Is the question, you mean having financial bonuses and stuff tied to hitting the plan?
问题是，你的意思是有经济奖金和与完成计划相关的东西吗？
Lenny: More that their KPIs and their OKRs are essentially this much revenue, you need to drive this much revenue from your experiments, from your product launches.
Lenny：他们的 KPI 和 OKR 本质上就是这么多的收入，你需要从你的实验和产品发布中获得这么多的收入。
Jason Lemkin: As you can see, I have a lot of opinions on things here that are data-driven and they're live experience.
Jason Lemkin：正如你所看到的，我对这里的很多观点都是数据驱动的，而且都是现场经验。
This one, I need another year in the oven, and I'll tell you why.
这个，我需要在烤箱里再放一年，我会告诉你原因。
I'll tell you why.
我会告诉你原因。
What happened in the last 18 months is, in customer success, which is, in the old days, it was related to product.
过去 18 个月发生的事情是客户成功，也就是说，在过去，它与产品有关。
Now, it's less so, which I think is unfortunate.
现在情况有所不同，我认为这是不幸的。
In customer success, in the last 18 months, this happened all across the industry.
在过去 18 个月的客户成功中，整个行业都发生了这种情况。
24 months ago, customer success's goal was happy customers, measured in retention, sometimes NRR, net retention with upsells, sometimes with GRR, just logos, how many logos.
24 个月前，客户成功的目标是让客户满意，以保留率来衡量，有时是 NRR、加售的净保留率，有时是 GRR、只是徽标、有多少个徽标。
That was your only job, happy customers.
这是你唯一的工作，快乐的顾客。
Happy customers.
快乐的顾客。
Jason Lemkin: Then, things got harder in many areas of B2B, and every customer success team last year, their goal was revenue.
Jason Lemkin：然后，B2B 的许多领域的事情变得更加困难，去年每个客户成功团队的目标都是收入。
You need to bring in more revenue from existing base, and it destroyed customer relationships.
您需要从现有基础中获得更多收入，但这破坏了客户关系。
There is a leading public company, I will not name them, I'm a positive guy.
有一家领先的上市公司，我不会说出他们的名字，我是一个积极的人。
I will tell you, a company we all have used for years and loved, and they did this to their customer success team.
我会告诉你，这是一家我们都使用多年并喜爱的公司，他们对客户成功团队做到了这一点。
And they came to us last year, we paid $299 a month for this product for our team.
他们去年来找我们，我们为我们的团队每月支付 299 美元购买该产品。
They asked us for $50,000 upfront or said they would turn it off that day.
他们向我们预付 50,000 美元，或者说他们会在当天将其关闭。
That week.
那一周。
Maybe it was that week.
也许就是那一周。
$50,000.
50,000 美元。
That's what happens when you weaponize ...
这就是当你武器化时会发生的事情......
Jason Lemkin: So customer success, and I know this is going to trigger some people, but it is true, when I talk to leaders, customer success got weaponized and I don't like it, okay?
Jason Lemkin：所以客户成功，我知道这会触发一些人，但这是事实，当我与领导者交谈时，客户成功被武器化了，我不喜欢它，好吗？
I don't like it as a product.
我不喜欢它作为一种产品。
All founders are product people, I think.
我认为所有创始人都是产品人员。
I don't like it as a product because I think it's bad for customers.
我不喜欢它作为一种产品，因为我认为它对客户不利。
That experience I got was horrific, wasn't it?
我的经历很可怕，不是吗？
That $50,000, being told.
听说那是50,000美元。
And it got walked back.
它又走回来了。
And the fact that it got walked back is almost even worse because it wasn't true.
事实上，它被撤回的事实几乎更糟糕，因为它不是真的。
It was a threat.
这是一个威胁。
So do I want to weaponize the product team?
那么我想武器化产品团队吗？
I want the product team aligned with revenue.
我希望产品团队与收入保持一致。
These are the tough decisions for founders.
这些对于创始人来说都是艰难的决定。
But I think we're going to regret, to some extent, weaponizing teams that we don't need to weaponize.
但我认为，在某种程度上，我们会后悔将我们不需要武器化的团队武器化。
Jason Lemkin: Having said that, I will tell you, and again, no knock on Adobe, but when I was a VP at Adobe, and it was a long time ago, when product was in another building, in some cases, that was not great.
Jason Lemkin：话虽如此，我会再次告诉你，不要批评 Adobe，但是当我担任 Adobe 副总裁时，那是很久以前的事了，当时产品在另一栋大楼里，在某些情况下，情况并不好。
And I love Scott and the whole team, it was a great experience, but I can just tell you, what I learned is, that did not work for me as an agile guy, having groups that would do this work in isolation.
我爱斯科特和整个团队，这是一次很棒的经历，但我可以告诉你，我学到的是，这对我这样一个敏捷的人来说并不适用，让团队单独完成这项工作。
Jason Lemkin: And the problem was they would never talk to a customer.
Jason Lemkin：问题是他们永远不会与客户交谈。
So I know I want product constantly talking to the customer.
所以我知道我希望产品不断地与客户交谈。
I know I want the VP of product with a lot of equity, wanting to hit the bookings number for the year.
我知道我想要拥有大量股权的产品副总裁，想要达到今年的预订量。
Do I want your average PM weaponized and forced to bring in revenue from an experimental feature when everyone agreed it's the test we're going to run?
当每个人都同意这是我们要进行的测试时，我是否希望您的平均 PM 武器化并被迫从实验功能中获得收入？
We only can run so many.
我们只能跑这么多。
You say, should they have revenue for new feature launches, for new product expansions, for new things?
你说，他们应该为新功能发布、新产品扩展、新事物获得收入吗？
Yes, but everyone's got to make that decision.
是的，但每个人都必须做出这个决定。
There aren't that many of us that have 1,000 extra engineers sitting around with nothing to do.
我们中没有多少人拥有 1,000 名额外的工程师无所事事。
Jason Lemkin: Even the smallest experiment, no matter what it says on the internet, again, that we release 100 a day, I would argue bringing any product extension to market's very expensive and risky because you're taking away from something else.
Jason Lemkin：即使是最小的实验，无论互联网上怎么说，我们每天发布 100 个产品，我认为将任何产品扩展推向市场都是非常昂贵且有风险的，因为你会从其他东西中拿走。
These are expensive decisions, and if you punish people for the mistakes in product, this is something that big companies are actually better at than startups, which is, they don't fire you if the new initiative fails.
这些都是昂贵的决定，如果你因为产品中的错误而惩罚人们，那么大公司实际上比初创公司更擅长这一点，也就是说，如果新计划失败，他们不会解雇你。
Because then, no one at a big company would ever join the new initiative.
因为那时，大公司的任何人都不会加入这项新计划。
There are exceptions, but no one at Adobe or Google would work on the new product if you got fired if it didn't hit $100 million its first year.
也有例外，但如果你的新产品第一年没有达到 1 亿美元而被解雇，Adobe 或谷歌的任何人都不会参与新产品的开发。
Jason Lemkin: One thing I saw that was very, and I don't know how to bring to startups in my big company experience, was it's liberating to some extent to let people fail, up to a point.
杰森·莱姆金（Jason Lemkin）：我看到的一件事非常重要，而且我不知道如何以我的大公司经验为初创公司带来，那就是在某种程度上让人们失败是一种解放。
It's liberating.
这是一种解放。
Because the cost of failure in a startup is so high.
因为创业失败的成本是如此之高。
It's just so high.
就是这么高。
I know that's not what the exact question, and ask me in a year, but my advice is, just be careful that you don't weaponize functions.
我知道这不是确切的问题，一年后问我，但我的建议是，请小心不要将功能武器化。
Lenny: I probably should have clarified.
莱尼：我可能应该澄清一下。
I think this is mostly true in PLG companies where most of the growth is coming from product, but I imagine the advice is still the same, as be careful putting too much pressure on the product team to focus on revenue.
我认为这在 PLG 公司中尤其如此，因为它们的大部分增长都来自于产品，但我想建议仍然是一样的，要小心给产品团队施加太大的压力，让他们专注于收入。
Jason Lemkin: Well, that's how you get dark stuff.
杰森·莱姆金：好吧，这就是你获得黑暗事物的方式。
Back in the day, I remember my sister worked at Vistaprint for online business cards, and her entire job was to force people to buy upsell of additional products on the checkout page they didn't want to buy.
以前，我记得我姐姐在 Vistaprint 从事在线名片工作，她的全部工作就是强迫人们在结帐页面上购买他们不想购买的附加产品。
That was her whole job.
这就是她的全部工作。
And she was paid a large variable comp to get people to buy third party products without realizing in their checkout, and it worked.
她获得了一大笔可变补偿，以吸引人们在结账时没有意识到的情况下购买第三方产品，而且这种方法奏效了。
That's all she did for three years was figure out dark stuff, I mean, darkish, grayish stuff so that when I bought my business card, I also bought GoDaddy and 11 other things that I didn't want.
这三年来她所做的就是找出黑暗的东西，我的意思是，黑暗的、灰色的东西，所以当我买名片时，我还买了 GoDaddy 和其他 11 个我不想要的东西。
It works, but it doesn't create high NPS, does it?
它有效，但不会产生高 NPS，不是吗？
Jason Lemkin: The thing is, here's the thing that you have to think about.
杰森·莱姆金：问题是，这是你必须考虑的事情。
What's crazy, Lenny, now, and I talk to a lot of these folks is, there's so many SaaS companies that are a billion or more in revenue.
Lenny，现在最疯狂的是，我和其中很多人交谈过，有这么多 SaaS 公司的收入达到 10 亿或更多。
I just wrote up, there's just Pimcore, which is SaaS for .
我刚刚写过，只有 Pimcore，它是 .
I just wrote up, it just crossed a billion in revenue.
我刚刚写完，收入刚刚突破十亿。
So many folks are at a billion.
很多人的身价都达到了十亿。
CloudFlare just crossed a billion.
CloudFlare 刚刚突破 10 亿大关。
And the only way you can do that is if your revenue compounds.
做到这一点的唯一方法就是你的收入复合。
Jason Lemkin: And in fact, just myself, I just interviewed Matt Mullen from WordPress, 20 years he's been doing this, and he said the number one thing he didn't understand at WordPress, at Automatic, was the power of compounding.
Jason Lemkin：事实上，就我个人而言，我刚刚采访了 WordPress 的 Matt Mullen，他从事这行已有 20 年了，他说他在 WordPress、Automatic 不明白的第一件事就是复合的力量。
When you do these things that are customer hostile, and a lot of us were under stress this last 12 days, to hit the numbers, right?
当你做这些对客户有敌意的事情时，我们很多人在过去 12 天都承受着压力，为了达到目标，对吗？
This is your job as founders, is you got to load balance the fact that the cash has to last and my investors are mad with me, but nothing matters in B2B that it compounds.
这是你作为创始人的工作，你必须平衡这样一个事实：现金必须持续下去，而我的投资者对我很生气，但在 B2B 中，它的复合并不重要。
And some of this dark stuff you're talking about on PLG, it anti-compounds, right?
你在 PLG 上谈论的一些黑暗的东西，它是抗化合物的，对吧？
Jason Lemkin: And I would say, let me flip it around.
杰森·莱姆金：我想说，让我翻转一下。
The magical thing at the high level that it compounds, if you have a self-service model, a PLG model, I actually think the number one most important metric is churn.
从高层次来看，它的神奇之处在于，如果你有一个自助服务模型、一个 PLG 模型，我实际上认为第一个最重要的指标是流失率。
It's going to this churn, churn, churn, churn.
将会出现这种混乱、混乱、混乱、混乱。
And when I meet any startup for investing or anything, if the churn is not top decile for a low end product, I'm always out.
当我遇到任何投资或其他初创公司时，如果低端产品的流失率不是最高的，我总是会被排除在外。
It's almost unsolvable.
几乎是无解的。
It's almost unsolvable.
几乎是无解的。
This 3% to 4% a month churn rate that a lot of SMB stuff, it's almost unsolvable.
对于很多中小型企业来说，每月 3% 到 4% 的流失率几乎是无法解决的。
I think that's where the energy should go, is relentlessly bringing down churn so that, 20 years from now, we all have billion dollar AR companies.
我认为这就是精力应该投入的地方，不断减少客户流失，以便 20 年后，我们都能拥有价值数十亿美元的 AR 公司。
That's what we want.
这就是我们想要的。
Lenny: I have a rapid fire set of questions before, actually, the lightning round.
莱尼：实际上，在闪电轮之前我有一系列快速提问。
We'll see if we have time for all these things.
我们会看看是否有时间做所有这些事情。
I just have a bunch of random questions that I'm going to fire at you and and see what comes up.
我只是有一堆随机问题要向你提出，然后看看会发生什么。
Sounds good?
听起来不错吗？
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
I got a thumbs up.
我竖起了大拇指。
Let's do it.
让我们开始吧。
Okay.
好的。
Lenny: What is just one thing a founder or product leader can do to become better at sales?
Lenny：创始人或产品负责人可以做的一件事是如何提高销售能力？
Jason Lemkin: The number one thing they can do, and this is very tactical, at the end of each meeting, because again, both of them are good middlers, the head of product and the founders are good demos, they're good at talking shop, they're good at talking in the industry, they're good at talking workflows.
Jason Lemkin：他们能做的第一件事，这是非常有策略的，在每次会议结束时，因为他们都是优秀的中间人，产品负责人和创始人都是优秀的演示者，他们擅长谈论工作，他们擅长谈论行业，他们擅长谈论工作流程。
Learn.
学习。
This is the only school you have to learn.
这是你唯一必须学习的学校。
Even if you're not comfortable asking for money, learn to ask for what's the next step, Lenny.
即使你不愿意开口要钱，也要学会询问下一步要做什么，莱尼。
This is what all great salespeople have learned to do.
这是所有伟大的销售人员都学会做的事情。
Actually, mediocre salespeople are terrible at this.
事实上，平庸的销售人员在这方面做得很糟糕。
The best salespeople never leave a meeting without a next step.
最好的销售人员决不会在没有下一步行动的情况下离开会议。
The next step does not have to be a check.
下一步不一定是检查。
Don't break the relationship, but what's the next meeting?
不要破坏关系，但是下次见面是什么？
The next meeting might be, "Lenny, is there someone else at your company that I could do a demo for?" People are lazy, they don't want to do multiple demos.
下一次会议可能是，“莱尼，你们公司还有其他人可以让我做演示吗？”人们很懒，他们不想做多个演示。
Jason Lemkin: But in 2024, we all have to demo multiple stakeholders.
Jason Lemkin：但到 2024 年，我们都必须演示多个利益相关者。
In 2021, it was one stakeholder.
2021年，它是一个利益相关者。
Now, it's a four-stakeholder sale.
现在，这是四个利益相关者的出售。
If you don't know what to ask at the end of the call, ask, "Who else?
如果你在通话结束时不知道该问什么，可以问：“还有谁？
Lenny, is there someone else?
莱尼，还有其他人吗？
I know you're excited to buy our product, but who else?
我知道您很高兴购买我们的产品，但是还有谁呢？
Is there someone else in the organization?
组织里还有其他人吗？
Can I help you?
我可以帮你吗？
Can I just do a demo?" A demo is not threatening.
我可以做一个演示吗？”演示并不具有威胁性。
Whatever the next step is, "What's the next step we can get on our books?" And listen.
无论下一步是什么，“我们下一步可以做什么？”并听。
The best salespeople march deals step by step by step by step.
最好的销售人员一步一步地进行交易。
And then, they put in the time.
然后，他们投入了时间。
They've done the demos, they've done the pilot if they need to, they've helped them get going, they've helped them see the value.
他们已经完成了演示，如果需要的话，他们已经完成了试点，他们帮助他们开始行动，他们帮助他们看到了价值。
And then, if it takes six steps to say, "Okay, Lenny, now, we've got five folks at the organization using it.
然后，如果需要六个步骤才能说：“好吧，莱尼，现在，我们组织中有五个人在使用它。
They've seen, here's the deal.
他们已经看到了，这就是交易。
They love it.
他们喜欢它。
What can we do, Lenny, to get going?
莱尼，我们要做什么才能开始呢？
Can we get a contract signed so we can get going on February 1st?" It's just very natural.
我们能签一份合同，这样我们就可以在 2 月 1 日开始工作吗？”这很自然。
Jason Lemkin: And founders just end the Zoom.
Jason Lemkin：创始人刚刚结束了 Zoom。
They end the zoom, and they wait.
他们结束变焦，然后等待。
They wait in their inbox for the next step to come, but it doesn't, it rarely comes on its own.
他们在收件箱中等待下一步的到来，但事实并非如此，它很少会自己出现。
That's the number one tip is, make sure yourself and you log it in your CRM that you always have a next step after.
第一个提示是，确保您自己和您将其记录在 CRM 中，以便您始终可以执行下一步。
You don't have to be great at sales.
您不必非常擅长销售。
As long as you're moving the ball down the field, then, get it into the red zone, and then, figure out how to ask for the money.
只要你将球移到球场上，然后将其放入红色区域，然后弄清楚如何要钱。
But you don't have to ask for the money until it's in the red zone.
但在钱到达红色区域之前你不必要钱。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
While we're on this topic, is there a book or a course or anything that you'd just recommend folks go to get better at sales?
当我们讨论这个主题时，您是否会推荐一本书、一门课程或任何其他东西来提高人们的销售能力？
Just, is there some tactical, "Go read this thing, it'll help you?" Or is it just, it's hard, you're not going to figure it out reading a book?
只是，是否有一些策略，“去读一下这个东西，它会对你有帮助？”或者只是，这很难，你读一本书也不会明白吗？
Jason Lemkin: I am a voracious reader.
杰森·莱姆金：我是一个如饥似渴的读者。
If I only wanted to plug myself, and I usually wouldn't, two things that we have, we have something called SaaStr.University.
如果我只想插入自己（我通常不会），我们有两件事，我们有一个叫做 SaaStr.University 的东西。
SaaStr dot University.
SaaSstr 点大学。
It's free.
它是免费的。
There's a pretty good course on learning about sales.
有一个非常好的学习销售的课程。
It's not perfect, but it's pretty good.
它并不完美，但已经相当不错了。
It just organizes a lot of the stuff we're talking about and it's free.
它只是组织了我们正在讨论的很多内容，而且是免费的。
I think it's pretty helpful.
我认为这很有帮助。
We actually wrote a book called From Impossible To Inevitable that sold about 100,000 copies.
我们实际上写了一本名为《从不可能到必然》的书，销量约为 100,000 册。
Jason Lemkin: I did almost none of the work, although a lot of is my content.
Jason Lemkin：我几乎没有做任何工作，尽管很多都是我的内容。
Aaron Ross did it.
亚伦·罗斯做到了。
It's actually really good, and it interviews a lot of top sales leaders and goes through a lot of stuff we did.
它实际上非常好，它采访了很多顶级销售领导者，并介绍了我们所做的很多事情。
I don't usually hype it, but for 15 bucks, I think this ...
我通常不会炒作它，但是对于 15 美元，我认为......
And actually, I've never made one dollar.
事实上，我从来没有赚过一美元。
I've never even gotten a check for these 100,000 copies, but I do think it's actually ...
我什至从未收到过这 100,000 份的支票，但我确实认为这实际上是......
The second edition's pretty good.
第二版还是很不错的
I think, if you like what we're talking about, the SaaS University and the others.
我想，如果你喜欢我们正在谈论的内容，SaaS 大学和其他大学。
I just hyped my own course, which is free.
我只是大肆宣传我自己的课程，它是免费的。
I don't think I'm selling something if it's free.
我不认为我会出售免费的东西。
The book, I don't make a dollar on.
这本书，我不赚一美元。
I'd be very cautious, and this is tough, maybe this is something we can work on together.
我会非常谨慎，这很难，也许这是我们可以共同努力的事情。
There's so many courses and so many people selling stuff the last two years.
过去两年有很多课程，也有很多人在卖东西。
Just be cautious.
请小心一点。
Just be cautious.
请小心一点。
Jason Lemkin: The last thing I will say is, there is another community called Pavilion, and I do think it's great, Pavilion.
Jason Lemkin：我要说的最后一件事是，还有另一个社区叫做 Pavilion，我确实认为它很棒，Pavilion。
It does have a lot of networking and stuff for sales and connecting sales with founders, and I am a super fan of what they're doing.
它确实有很多销售网络和东西，并将销售人员与创始人联系起来，我是他们所做的事情的超级粉丝。
That one's worth investing.
那是值得投资的。
But be careful about Bob and John's sales courses on the internet.
但要小心鲍勃和约翰在互联网上的销售课程。
There's too many.
太多了。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
All right.
好的。
We'll link to all those things in the show notes.
我们将链接到演出笔记中的所有这些内容。
Lenny: Next question, what is the ideal trial length for a free trial for sales team?
Lenny：下一个问题，销售团队免费试用的理想试用期是多长？
Is it 14 days, a month, years?
是14天、一个月还是几年？
What do you recommend?
你有什么建议吗？
Jason Lemkin: Tomas Tsangaris did a whole SaaStr presentation just on free trials and free trial legs.
Jason Lemkin：Tomas Tsangaris 就免费试用和免费试用环节做了完整的 SaaStr 演示。
It was really good, but the one thing you didn't know, which I know just being an old timer is, one of the reasons we have 14-day trials on the internet is, in the old days, the Salesforce sales team, when they were SMB focused, wanted to close deals that month, so they forced Salesforce to move from 30 to 14 days.
这真的很好，但你不知道的一件事是，我知道作为一个老前辈，我们在互联网上进行 14 天试用的原因之一是，在过去，Salesforce 销售团队在专注于中小型企业时，希望当月完成交易，因此他们迫使 Salesforce 从 30 天改为 14 天。
There was no evidence it was better for the customer.
没有证据表明这对客户更好。
There was no evidence that it got usage going or people ...
没有证据表明它得到了使用或人们......
They just wanted to close deals the same month.
他们只是想在同月完成交易。
Jason Lemkin: That's something to be cautious about, these metrics.
Jason Lemkin：这些指标值得谨慎对待。
And be cautious, since we're talking to product folks, be cautious that they're customer centric.
并且要小心，因为我们正在与产品人员交谈，所以要小心他们是以客户为中心的。
Salesforce is very enterprise now, but in the old days, it pushed it to 14 days so the sales reps could close deals faster.
Salesforce 现在非常企业化，但在过去，它将周期缩短至 14 天，以便销售代表可以更快地完成交易。
What we learned from Slack and Zoom until recently was infinite trials work pretty good.
直到最近，我们从 Slack 和 Zoom 中了解到，无限试验效果非常好。
So does Canva.
坎瓦也是如此。
Slack and Canva, and until recently, Zoom, were okay waiting four years to convert.
Slack 和 Canva，以及直到最近的 Zoom，都可以等待四年来进行转换。
And those are epic companies.
这些都是史诗般的公司。
Those are epic companies.
这些都是史诗般的公司。
Jason Lemkin: And these are one of the things that only founders can make these decisions.
杰森·莱姆金：这些是只有创始人才能做出这些决定的事情之一。
I wrote this post years ago saying, "Who's your VP of Free?" Because who's got a VP of Free?
我几年前写过这篇文章说：“谁是你的免费副总裁？”因为谁有免费副总裁？
Do you know anybody that has a VP of Free?
您认识任何拥有免费副总裁的人吗？
I got a VP of Growth, I got a VP of Product, but if you have this massive free base, who's your VP of Free?
我有一个增长副总裁，我有一个产品副总裁，但如果你有如此庞大的免费基础，谁是你的免费副总裁？
I know almost no one that has a VP of Free.
据我所知，几乎没有人拥有免费副总裁。
And usually, it's some kind of collaboration between product and the CEO.
通常，这是产品和首席执行官之间的某种协作。
They're the VP of Free, but even then, you need a VP of Free, and we don't have one.
他们是免费的副总裁，但即便如此，你也需要一名免费的副总裁，而我们没有。
There's no perfect answers, but in a world where we're tightening nooses everywhere on trials, we're tightening nooses everywhere, be careful the advice you get, be careful the short-term advice.
没有完美的答案，但在一个我们在试验中到处收紧绞索的世界里，我们在各处收紧绞索，小心你得到的建议，小心短期建议。
Jason Lemkin: For example, another related terrible piece of advice VCs give you is switch to annual contracts.
Jason Lemkin：例如，风投给你的另一个相关的糟糕建议是改用年度合同。
This is terrible advice.
这是一个糟糕的建议。
Terrible advice, Lenny.
糟糕的建议，莱尼。
Terrible advice from people who've never built products and aren't in the field.
来自从未构建过产品且不在该领域的人的糟糕建议。
Going to annual contracts, on a spreadsheet, looks great.
在电子表格上签订年度合同看起来很棒。
On a spreadsheet-
在电子表格上 -
Jason Lemkin: Going to annual contracts on a spreadsheet looks great.
Jason Lemkin：在电子表格上签订年度合同看起来很棒。
On a spreadsheet, it looks great.
在电子表格上，它看起来很棒。
You know what's better?
你知道什么更好吗？
Letting customers pay what they want to pay.
让客户支付他们想要支付的费用。
If it's you or me buying for ourselves, Lenny, we're still going to put it on a credit card, aren't we?
如果是你或我自己买东西，莱尼，我们仍然会把它记在信用卡上，不是吗？
If it's our own personal...
如果是我们自己的...
And we want to pay monthly, usually, we don't know.
我们想按月付款，通常我们不知道。
We usually want to just try it monthly.
我们通常只想每月尝试一次。
Big companies want to pay annually because they have procurement departments.
大公司希望每年付款，因为他们有采购部门。
Why force people to go the way they don't want to go?
为什么要强迫人们走自己不愿意走的路呢？
So, just start, this is a product audience.
所以，首先，这是产品受众。
Product needs to be the voice of the customer.
产品需要成为客户的声音。
It's not so much customer success as it used to be.
客户的成功不再像以前那样了。
It's not so much sales.
销量没那么大。
You've got to be the voice of the customer together with the founders and push these things.
你必须与创始人一起成为客户的代言人并推动这些事情。
Jason Lemkin: Think about, I would do the longest possible trial that is still customer-centric and understand there's tension.
Jason Lemkin：想一想，我会进行尽可能长时间的试验，但仍然以客户为中心，并理解其中存在的紧张关系。
Understand there's tension, right?
明白有紧张，对吧？
I say anytime I'm in a board meeting where some VC says, "Let's do annual for an SMB." I mean, I'm like, "No. Show me the money.
我每次在董事会会议上都会说，当一些风险投资家说：“让我们为中小型企业举办年度会议吧。”我的意思是，我想，“不，给我看看钱。
Show me the evidence that this is better for the customer." Right?
向我展示这对客户来说更好的证据。”正确的？
How many times have you gone to buy something for yourself and it's 19 bucks a month?
你有多少次去给自己买东西，而每月 19 美元？
And that's annoying because it's an credit card charge.
这很烦人，因为这是信用卡收费。
But do you want to pay 240 up front?
但你想先付240吗？
I mean, maybe you do it for a Riverside or something you use all the time, but some random product you just discovered, you're just going to bounce.
我的意思是，也许你是为了 Riverside 或你一直使用的东西而做的，但是你刚刚发现的一些随机产品，你只会反弹。
Jason Lemkin: So, who's going to show the data in the bounce, right?
Jason Lemkin：那么，谁将在反弹中显示数据，对吧？
A related point for like in sales.
销售中类似的一个相关点。
No one does enough.
没有人做得足够。
Everyone does these win-loss meetings, but no one talks enough about the deals they lost.
每个人都参加这些输赢会议，但没有人充分谈论他们失去的交易。
Everyone talks about the deals they won.
每个人都在谈论他们赢得的交易。
All the lore, the tribal lore in sales is how we won the deal.
所有的传说，销售中的部落传说都是我们赢得这笔交易的方式。
People should be spending more time talking about deals they lost than the deals they won, right?
人们应该花更多的时间谈论他们失去的交易而不是他们赢得的交易，对吗？
And same thing for this PLG motion.
PLG 动议也是如此。
If you make your...
如果你让你的...
Yes, I give everyone a pass for 2023, everyone whose growth plummeted and did things they shouldn't.
是的，我给每个人一张2023年的通行证，每个人的成长直线下降，做了不该做的事情。
Did price increases they didn't earn, cut the free trials, hid their free editions.
他们是否提高了价格，减少了免费试用，隐藏了他们的免费版本。
I'm going to give you, look, you've got to give your team a little stress relief, right?
我要给你看，你必须给你的团队一点压力缓解，对吧？
So, I'm giving every person I work with, every portfolio, everyone a one-year pass, but the past is in the past.
所以，我给每个和我一起工作的人、每个作品集、每个人一张一年的通行证，但过去的已经过去了。
We got to get back to being customer-centric and building businesses that build to 1 billion ARR on their own because they're wonderful businesses that are product-centric, right?
我们必须回到以客户为中心，并建立自己的年收入达到 10 亿美元的业务，因为它们是以产品为中心的出色业务，对吧？
That recur.
那种情况再次发生。
And every time you rip a customer off, you lose, the relationship's damaged, isn't it?
每次你欺骗客户时，你都会输，关系也会受损，不是吗？
Jason Lemkin: And a controversial thing I say to the product team, but I think this is the right thing if you're going long, is look, everyone raised prices last year, as you know, right?
Jason Lemkin：我对产品团队说了一件有争议的事情，但我认为如果你要做多头的话，这是正确的事情，你看，去年每个人都提高了价格，你知道，对吧？
Everyone raised prices.
大家都涨价了。
The question I ask folks is, "Did you earn it?" What feature did you ?
我问人们的问题是：“你赚到了吗？”你有什么特点？
If you raised prices 8% last year, did you add 30% more value to your product?
如果您去年提价 8%，您的产品价值是否增加了 30%？
In the old days pre these crazy years, the answer usually was yes.
在这些疯狂的岁月之前的过去，答案通常是肯定的。
People would wait up, they would wait a couple years, right?
人们会等待，他们会等几年，对吗？
And the whatever product from four years ago was so much better.
无论四年前的产品如何，都要好得多。
It really was.
确实如此。
Really had earned 1995 instead of...
真的赚了1995而不是...
Last year, no one earned their price increases.
去年，没有人因涨价而赚到钱。
No one came out with an amazing new edition, an amazing new functionality that earned it.
没有人推出令人惊叹的新版本、令人惊叹的新功能来赢得它。
They just sent you an email saying, "You're paying more." So we get one pass, but earn it.
他们刚刚给你发了一封电子邮件，说：“你要付更多的钱。”所以我们得到了一张通行证，但是我们赢得了它。
Earn your price increase.
赚取价格上涨。
Jason Lemkin: Have the longest free trial possible.
Jason Lemkin：尽可能享受最长的免费试用。
Own it.
拥有它。
And this VP of free thing, it's got to be founders working with product because no one else cares about the free.
这位负责免费事物的副总裁必须是与产品打交道的创始人，因为没有人关心免费。
You can't expect the sales team to care about free, can you?
你不能指望销售团队会关心免费，不是吗？
You can't expect the marketing team to care about free.
你不能指望营销团队关心免费。
Unless they can immediately monetize them, right?
除非他们可以立即将其货币化，对吗？
Unless they can ram them into conversion.
除非他们能迫使他们皈依。
People abuse their long tail in the last 18 months, but your long tail is...
人们在过去 18 个月里滥用了他们的长尾，但你的长尾是......
These are your...
这些是你的...
Even if they don't convert that much, they're your advocates.
即使他们的转化率不高，他们也是你的拥护者。
I mean, how many people read your newsletter?
我的意思是，有多少人阅读您的时事通讯？
500,000 people, right?
五十万人吧？
Jason Lemkin: Okay.
杰森·莱姆金：好的。
600,000.
600,000。
Now, not all of them convert, do they?
现在，并不是所有的人都皈依了，不是吗？
Lenny: No, no. That's exactly how I look at it.
莱尼：不，不。我就是这么看的。
It's kind of this Brian Belfort is this...
布莱恩·贝尔福特（Brian Belfort）就是这样……
Yeah.
是的。
Jason Lemkin: What about the 590,000 of them that love Lenny that don't convert, right?
杰森·莱姆金：那 590,000 名热爱莱尼却没有皈依的人呢？
Jason Lemkin: If you over monetize them, then Lenny's community doesn't exist if you over monetize them.
Jason Lemkin：如果你过度货币化，那么莱尼的社区就不存在。
But when you bring in a VP of sales for Lenny and a VP of growth and...
但是当你为 Lenny 引入销售副总裁和增长副总裁时......
You can't expect them to care as much about that long tail as you, right?
你不能指望他们会像你一样关心那条长尾巴，对吗？
Lenny: I love your passion around this.
莱尼：我喜欢你对此的热情。
So, what I'm hearing partly is you're a big fan of freemium, essentially, right?
所以，我听到的部分内容是，您本质上是免费增值的忠实粉丝，对吗？
And the benefits of product-led growth where there's something you could just use indefinitely, or do you still think that's a trial where it needs to end at some point?
以产品为主导的增长的好处是，有些东西你可以无限期地使用，或者你仍然认为这是一个需要在某个时候结束的试验？
Or is it just like, "No, freemium is great in a lot of cases."
或者只是“不，免费增值在很多情况下都很棒”。
Jason Lemkin: Listen, I'm a big fan of long tails when they work.
Jason Lemkin：听着，当他们工作时，我是长尾的忠实粉丝。
They don't always work for enterprise products.
它们并不总是适用于企业产品。
I'm a big fan of delivering more value than you take out for your customers.
我热衷于为客户提供比获取更多的价值。
And I am a big fan overall of free, because, and I know you'll agree with me this, every founder figures this out at some point, free products are better software.
总的来说，我是免费的忠实粉丝，因为，我知道你会同意我的观点，每个创始人都会在某个时候认识到这一点，免费产品是更好的软件。
Products that cannot offer a free edition cut corners because they don't have to be good at onboarding.
无法提供免费版本的产品会走捷径，因为它们不必擅长引导。
The products that do not have a free edition have human beings that bridge the gap between buying and deployment.
没有免费版本的产品需要人工来弥补购买和部署之间的差距。
And that's okay at ServiceNow, and that's okay in certain products, but the best products invest the engineering cycles to have a free edition.
这在 ServiceNow 上是可以的，在某些产品中也是可以的，但是最好的产品会投入工程周期来获得免费版本。
Whether that's truly free, whether it's an extended free trial, whether it's a long tail or a medium tail, the amount of...
无论是真正免费，无论是延长免费试用，无论是长尾还是中尾，...
All of your product is better if people can actually, if you have a free edition, all your customers benefit, even your enterprise customers benefit, they all benefit.
如果人们实际上可以，如果你有免费版本，你所有的客户都会受益，甚至你的企业客户也会受益，他们都会受益，那么你所有的产品都会更好。
Lenny: This idea of VP of free, I think technically it's probably the head of growth for a PLG company or the person leading the self-serve part of the business.
Lenny：免费副总裁的想法，我认为从技术上讲，它可能是 PLG 公司的增长主管或领导业务自助部分的人。
Jason Lemkin: But even in the organizations I work with that have those structures, that person is focused on monetizing that tail.
杰森·莱姆金：但即使在我合作的具有这些结构的组织中，该人也专注于将尾巴货币化。
Who stands up for the 590,000 other readers of Lenny?
谁为《莱尼》的其他 590,000 名读者挺身而出？
Who's their champion?
他们的冠军是谁？
Lenny: Yeah, and you're 100% right.
莱尼：是的，你说得100%正确。
That's exactly how I think about the newsletter.
这正是我对时事通讯的看法。
There's this free audience and ideas over time, they get convinced, "This is worth my money and let's give it a shot."
随着时间的推移，有了这些免费的观众和想法，他们就会相信，“这值得我花钱，让我们尝试一下。”
Jason Lemkin: And your growth person, let's say 1% converts.
Jason Lemkin：对于你的成长型员工，假设有 1% 的人发生了转变。
I'm just making that up.
我只是编造而已。
Going from 1 to 1.1 actually is a big deal at that scale or 1.2, right?
从 1 到 1.1 实际上对于 1.2 的规模来说是一件大事，对吧？
That's okay.
没关系。
But you've got to nurture the 490,000, not spend all the calories just ramming the paid edition through, right?
但你必须养活这 490,000 人，而不是把所有的卡路里都花在冲付费版本上，对吗？
But only it's a fun thing, because once you hit a little bit of scale, this is part of your job as founders and product leaders is who's going to be this VP of free?
但这只是一件有趣的事情，因为一旦你达到了一点规模，这就是你作为创始人和产品领导者工作的一部分，谁将成为这个免费副总裁？
It's not growth.
这不是成长。
I don't think it's the growth team or something.
我不认为这是增长团队之类的。
They got to hit their goal when their goal is to get another half million out of the newsletter this year.
当他们的目标是今年从时事通讯中再获得 50 万份时，他们就必须实现目标。
And that's their bonuses side to it.
这就是他们的奖金。
You think they're going to work on the free ones?
你认为他们会开发免费的吗？
No chance.
没有机会。
Lenny: Makes sense.
莱尼：有道理。
Oh man, there's so many things I can go into and want to go into.
天哪，有很多事情我可以参与并且想要参与。
I also want to let you go.
我也想放你走。
So with that, is there anything else, Jason, that you wanted to share before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
那么，杰森，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？
Anything you want to leave listeners with?
您有什么想留给听众的吗？
Jason Lemkin: I think just make this the year of the customer guys.
Jason Lemkin：我认为今年是客户之年。
And I really think that sales has been under so much pressure the last 18 months.
我确实认为过去 18 个月销售面临着巨大的压力。
Customer success has changed.
客户的成功已经改变。
Product teams have to step up.
产品团队必须站出来。
This is your time to do great things this year as product people.
今年是你作为产品人员做伟大事情的时候了。
Be the voice of the customer.
成为客户的声音。
Be the VP of free, be the whatever.
成为免费副总裁，随心所欲。
Be the champion.
成为冠军。
Stick your neck out.
把你的脖子伸出来。
Work harder, folks.
各位，更加努力吧。
Work harder.
更加努力地工作。
The funnest part of anything in startups is working hard, but in product it's extra fun.
在初创公司中，最有趣的部分就是努力工作，但在产品中，这更有趣。
By working harder, you have the more fun conversations.
通过更加努力地工作，您可以进行更有趣的对话。
Find the delight in...
寻找乐趣...
The delight in product is making customers happy.
产品带来的乐趣就是让顾客感到高兴。
It's not worth it otherwise.
否则不值得。
Otherwise, it's drudgery and it's endless PRDs and Gantt charts and mindless discussions.
否则，这就是苦差事，是无休止的 PRD、甘特图和盲目的讨论。
Make your customers happier this year, you will be happy.
今年让你的客户更快乐，你也会快乐。
This is the year of product and we all get a pass for whatever bad deeds we did or mediocre deeds we did in 2023, get back and be the vanguard in your companies.
今年是产品年，我们在 2023 年所做的任何坏事或平庸行为都会得到通行证，回来并成为公司的先锋。
Jason Lemkin: Startups need, and bigger companies, they need someone to inject energy again, in many cases.
Jason Lemkin：在很多情况下，初创公司需要，而更大的公司，他们需要有人再次注入能量。
Energy has been lost.
能量已经流失。
And it would be great if product can do it and say, "Listen, let's do something, even if we're not exactly sure how to get more leads, okay?
如果产品能够做到这一点并说：“听着，让我们做点什么，即使我们不确定如何获得更多潜在客户，好吗？
Even if we're not exactly sure what to do, there's one thing under our control is the code we write and the product we ship.
即使我们不确定要做什么，我们可以控制的一件事是我们编写的代码和我们发布的产品。
Let's do three great things this year.
今年我们要做三件大事。
Let's just do them not good, great.
让我们把它们做好，太好了。
Let's do three great." And what you'll find is the whole company will respond, including sales, including marketing, including...
让我们一起做三件大事吧。”你会发现整个公司都会做出回应，包括销售、包括营销、包括……
If we start shipping great thing.
如果我们开始运送伟大的东西。
Few things inspire teams more than when you're shipping great products.
没有什么比交付出色的产品更能激励团队的了。
So, be...
所以，要...
If you weren't the leaders the last two years, if you were being forced to weaponize your customer base somehow ship three great things this year.
如果你在过去两年中不是领导者，如果你被迫以某种方式将你的客户群武器化，那么今年你会做出三件伟大的事情。
That's my challenge.
这就是我的挑战。
Ship three great things.
运送三件伟大的事情。
Lenny: I love this.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
This is the year of product, that might be the title of this podcast.
这是产品年，这可能是这个播客的标题。
Lenny: Jason, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
莱尼：杰森，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got six questions for you.
我有六个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Jason Lemkin: Okay.
杰森·莱姆金：好的。
I'm worried about the first one, but go for it.
我很担心第一个，但继续吧。
Lenny: They're very non-surprising, because they're always the same.
莱尼：它们并不令人惊讶，因为它们总是一样的。
What are two or three books you've recommended most to other people?
您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Jason Lemkin: That's the one I just want to take a pass on.
Jason Lemkin：这就是我想忽略的一个。
I know they're the same.
我知道他们是一样的。
I read more than anybody else in the planet, but I wish I had those two great, great books that have changed my mind in the last 12 months, but hopefully I've added some value.
我比世界上任何人都读得更多，但我希望我能拥有这两本非常非常好的书，它们在过去 12 个月里改变了我的想法，但希望我已经增加了一些价值。
But this one, I think I got to take a mulligan on it perfect answer.
但这一次，我想我必须重新考虑它的完美答案。
Lenny: Acceptable answer.
莱尼：可以接受的答案。
Is there a favorite movie or TV show that you really enjoy?
有没有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？
Jason Lemkin: The Terminal List, yeah.
杰森·莱姆金：终端列表，是的。
I'm not into the Chris Pratt.
我不喜欢克里斯·帕拉特。
I'm not into that goofy superhero movies he does, and I know people like it, but The Terminal List, it's pretty, it's I got it, it's written by this ex Navy SEAL that I think tech people don't read the...
我不喜欢他拍的那些愚蠢的超级英雄电影，我知道人们喜欢它，但是《终端列表》，它很漂亮，我明白了，它是由这位前海豹突击队队员写的，我认为技术人员不会读...
Everyone, but outside of tech reads this author, but Amazon did this thing with The Terminal List and I think the reason it gripped me, it's like this post, it's like a lot of tech is right now is we're trying to do the right things, but are we doing the right things?
每个人，但不是科技界的人，都读过这位作者，但亚马逊通过《终端列表》做了这件事，我认为它吸引我的原因，就像这篇文章一样，就像现在很多科技公司正在努力做正确的事情，但我们正在做正确的事情吗？
It's just confusing.
这只是令人困惑。
So this one, I couldn't put down, The Terminal List.
所以这个，我无法放下，终端列表。
That was my favorite show.
那是我最喜欢的节目。
The other one, the one I liked that I couldn't believe.
另一件是我喜欢的，我简直不敢相信。
You want the second one?
你想要第二个吗？
Even though as product people, Maverick, and I'll tell you why.
即使作为产品人员，Maverick，我也会告诉你原因。
This movie Maverick, okay, you wouldn't think I'd be a Maverick guy, but the quality of this product, it was so high.
这部电影《特立独行》，好吧，你不会认为我会是一个特立独行的人，但是这个产品的质量，实在是太高了。
Jason Lemkin: And what's interesting, you remember Maverick was supposed to come out before COVID, right?
Jason Lemkin：有趣的是，你记得 Maverick 应该在新冠疫情之前出现，对吧？
And Tom Cruise said no. He's like, "This is such a good product, we're going to wait years for this thing to come out." I'm like, " I'm not going to like this.
汤姆·克鲁斯拒绝了。他说，“这是一个非常好的产品，我们要等很多年才能推出。”我想，“我不会喜欢这个。
I mean, cocktail was pretty good, but I'm not going to..." But as a product, when...
我的意思是，鸡尾酒非常好，但我不会……”但是作为一种产品，当……
I've watched this movie three times from a product perspective and just like software, when something is done that well, no wasted calories, no...
我从产品的角度看了这部电影三遍，就像软件一样，当某件事做得很好时，不会浪费卡路里，不会......
You see everything tied together.
你会看到一切都联系在一起。
That's the kind of software we love, right?
这就是我们喜欢的软件，对吧？
It just delights us when it works better than we expected.
当它比我们预期的效果更好时，我们就会感到高兴。
So, those are my two.
所以，这是我的两个。
Lenny: You also did all his own stunts, which I think is a good metaphor for the VP of product, maybe being involved in sales?
莱尼：你也做了所有他自己的特技，我认为这是对产品副总裁的一个很好的比喻，也许参与销售？
Lenny: Yeah, exactly.
莱尼：是的，完全正确。
Oh man, I'm stretching it.
哦，伙计，我正在伸展它。
Okay, next question.
好的，下一个问题。
You answered a few of these already, but do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask when you're interviewing salespeople, especially?
您已经回答了其中的一些问题，但是您有一个最喜欢的面试问题，尤其是在面试销售人员时最喜欢问的问题吗？
Jason Lemkin: I answered it, but I'll bring it up again in case you do it again, is, "What do you want to do your first 14 days to head of product or head of sales?
Jason Lemkin：我回答了这个问题，但如果您再次这样做，我会再次提出这个问题，即“您想在头 14 天对产品主管或销售主管做什么？
What do you want to do your first 14 days?" It's not a technical 30-day plan, you don't have to do 28 slides.
头14天你想做什么？”这不是一个技术性的 30 天计划，您不必做 28 张幻灯片。
It's what I call a Colombo question.
这就是我所说的科伦坡问题。
Not that I really watch Colombo, but Colombo is this old detective on TV who, I don't know if you ever, he would ask these dumb questions, right?
并不是说我真的看科伦坡，而是科伦坡是电视上的老侦探，我不知道你是否曾经问过这些愚蠢的问题，对吗？
And then the murderer would thought Colombo was so dumb, but by the end of the episode he'd always incriminate himself because the question.
然后凶手会认为科伦坡是如此愚蠢，但到了这一集的结尾，他总是因为这个问题而自证其罪。
So, when I interview, I always do Colombo questions.
所以，当我面试的时候，我总是做科伦坡问题。
They're never tough ones, right?
他们从来都不是强硬的人，对吧？
They're always nice.
他们总是很好。
I don't know if I'm nice, I'm honest, but the interview .
我不知道我是否友善，老实说，但是面试。
But Lenny, what would you do your first 14 days as VP of product here?
但是 Lenny，你在担任产品副总裁的前 14 天会做什么？
And they don't want to visit customers.
而且他们不想拜访客户。
Don't hire them for either all sales or product.
不要雇用他们来完成所有销售或产品。
Just don't hire them.
只是不要雇用他们。
Lenny: I've got the answer now.
莱尼：我现在已经得到答案了。
That's exactly what I was going to say.
这正是我想说的。
Next question, what is a favorite product that you have recently discovered that you really like?
下一个问题，您最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？
Jason Lemkin: My two aren't really amazing, but I'll answer them.
Jason Lemkin：我的两个并不是很了不起，但我会回答他们。
I love this Opus Clip app for making clips from video.
我喜欢这个 Opus Clip 应用程序，用于从视频中制作剪辑。
I know you have a whole team, so you probably don't need it, but I produce a lot.
我知道你有一个完整的团队，所以你可能不需要它，但我生产了很多。
I mean, a lot of us do content marketing, right?
我的意思是，我们很多人都做内容营销，对吧？
Whoever does it.
谁干就干吧。
I produce a lot of content.
我制作了很多内容。
I don't have enough time to do this.
我没有足够的时间来做这件事。
So, the only AI tool that I've found helpful so far is Opus Clip, which takes all of the incredible amount of YouTube content we have, force ranks it and turns it into 59 second clips.
因此，到目前为止，我发现唯一有用的人工智能工具是 Opus Clip，它获取了我们拥有的所有令人难以置信的 YouTube 内容，对其进行强制排名并将其转换为 59 秒的剪辑。
And I'm a case study on the website, I tried the earlier products.
我在网站上进行了案例研究，我尝试了早期的产品。
They were almost there, right?
他们就快到了，对吧？
But it's not, is it as good as a clip team?
但其实不然，难道还不如剪辑团队吗？
Right?
正确的？
Is it?
是吗？
No.
不。
Jason Lemkin: But literally in 60 seconds, what's interesting is it can do something, I don't have time to, I could never make YouTube clips.
Jason Lemkin：但实际上在 60 秒内，有趣的是它可以做一些事情，我没有时间，我永远无法制作 YouTube 剪辑。
I could never make Instagram shorts.
我永远无法制作 Instagram 短片。
I could never make...
我永远无法让...
It just would never happen, right?
这永远不会发生，对吧？
It would never happen.
这永远不会发生。
And the fact that one product enables you to do something at a minimum viable quality you couldn't do before, I'm a super fan.
事实上，一种产品可以让你以最低可行的质量做一些你以前无法做到的事情，我是它的超级粉丝。
It's pretty interesting.
这很有趣。
So, that's my favorite.
所以，这是我最喜欢的。
And my other one is this one.
我的另一件就是这个。
This is the folding phone that's finally as good as a normal phone.
这是一款终于和普通手机一样好的折叠手机。
See, there's The Terminal List that I've got folded up and it just works.
看，我把终端列表折叠起来，它就可以工作了。
Jason Lemkin: And so the reason it's cool is this has changed the way I do productivity.
Jason Lemkin：它很酷的原因是它改变了我提高生产力的方式。
One Plus, it's the One Plus.
一加，就是一加。
One Plus, yeah, it's the first one that's the same form factor, same weight, same...
一加，是的，这是第一款具有相同外形、相同重量、相同......
So there's really no, there's no loss, right?
所以真的没有，没有损失，对吧？
And I can use my normal phone here like I'm using, it's a little funky, but it's the same...
我可以在这里使用我的普通手机，就像我正在使用的那样，这有点时髦，但都是一样的......
And then to be able to do content, to be able to check, to be able to do full email, full account, full everything like an iPad.
然后能够处理内容、能够检查、能够处理完整的电子邮件、完整的帐户、像 iPad 一样处理所有的事情。
Lenny: We see your Tesla where it's going, that gets parked.
莱尼：我们看到你的特斯拉正在行驶、停在哪里。
That's very cool.
太酷了。
So, it's basically like an iPad plus a phone in one.
所以，它基本上就像是 iPad 加手机的合二为一。
Jason Lemkin: Yeah, I probably use this 50% of the time of the iPad.
Jason Lemkin：是的，我大概 50% 的时间都在使用 iPad。
Jason Lemkin: So, that's it.
杰森·莱姆金：所以，就是这样。
That is it.
就是这样。
The other ones that-
其他的——
Jason Lemkin: ...
杰森·莱姆金：...
Make sense to me.
对我来说有意义。
Yeah, it's a Android, yeah.
是的，这是一个安卓系统，是的。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
I had not seen that.
我没有看到过。
That is extremely cool.
这太酷了。
Lenny: Two more questions.
莱尼：还有两个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to share with friends or family, find useful in work or in life?
您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回来与朋友或家人分享，并发现它对工作或生活有用？
Jason Lemkin: It's, "Be kind." When I reflect on my career, right?
杰森·莱姆金：就是“友善一点”。当我反思自己的职业生涯时，对吗？
Mistakes, I don't think I'm mean.
错误，我不认为我是卑鄙的。
I actually think I care more than most people on the planet.
事实上，我认为我比地球上大多数人更关心。
I like to think I've helped a lot of people, but it's not taking the time to be kind at times and not taking time to be kind when things don't work out.
我喜欢认为我已经帮助了很多人，但这并不是有时花时间友善，也不是在事情不顺利时不花时间友善。
Not taking time to be kind when you leave a situation.
当你离开某种情况时，没有花时间表现出善意。
Not taking time to be kind when maybe someone's done the wrong thing, right?
当有人做错事时，不花时间表现出善意，对吧？
Not taking time to be kind to a customer that leaves, right?
没有花时间善待离开的顾客，对吧？
I remember in the early days of Adobe Sign of EchoSign, we had a top tech customer, and I killed myself to close this customer, right?
我记得在 EchoSign 的 Adobe Sign 早期，我们有一个顶级科技客户，我自杀了才能关闭这个客户，对吗？
Famous, huge, huge tech company today.
今天是著名的、巨大的、巨大的科技公司。
And then our champion changed, right?
然后我们的冠军就变了，对吧？
Champion changed is the big issue in software and product and came in and brought in DocuSign instead of us.
Champion 的改变是软件和产品方面的一个大问题，他进来并引入了 DocuSign 而不是我们。
Jason Lemkin: And man, I was just so mad.
杰森·莱姆金：伙计，我简直太生气了。
I just tore into this guy.
我刚刚撕碎了这个家伙。
This guy had actually had dinner at my house, right?
这家伙居然在我家吃过晚饭吧？
And he actually never, he just did it because it was good for his own career, right?
事实上他从来没有这样做，他只是因为这对他自己的职业生涯有好处，对吗？
And I was so mad, but I broke the relationship forever, right?
我很生气，但我永远断绝了这段关系，对吗？
That's just one random example.
这只是一个随机的例子。
And I just think there's so much advice to fire fast and to be relentless and do all these things, right?
我只是认为有很多关于快速开火、坚持不懈地做所有这些事情的建议，对吗？
But you've interviewed so many people, Lenny, right?
但你采访过很多人，莱尼，对吧？
I mean so many great leaders.
我的意思是有很多伟大的领导人。
I haven't done what you've done, but I've talked to almost all the top CEOs in SaaS, okay?
我没有做过你做过的事情，但我已经和 SaaS 领域几乎所有的顶级 CEO 谈过了，好吗？
And they're kind.
他们很友善。
It doesn't mean that they're soft, they're not soft, okay?
这并不意味着它们很软，它们并不软，好吗？
They make tough decisions every day, but they're kind.
他们每天都会做出艰难的决定，但他们很友善。
And so in this world where everyone feels like they're getting ripped off or they're not paid enough, or I want founder pay for founder work, this motto, really it's troubling.
因此，在这个世界上，每个人都觉得自己被敲诈了，或者他们没有得到足够的报酬，或者我希望创始人为创始人的工作支付报酬，这句座右铭确实令人不安。
Jason Lemkin: Everyone is founder pay for founder...
Jason Lemkin：每个人都是创始人，为创始人付钱……
"You want me to work more than 30 hours, Lenny?
“你想让我工作超过 30 个小时，莱尼？
I need 30% of the company.
我需要公司30%的股份。
I need founder pay for founder work." It's like, I hear you.
我需要创始人为创始人的工作支付报酬。”就好像，我听到你的声音了。
But you'll find that by being totally committed, going to 110% and also finding a way to be kind, that will endure across your whole career.
但你会发现，通过全心投入、投入 110% 并找到一种友善的方式，这将在你的整个职业生涯中持续下去。
So, I know it's...
所以，我知道这是...
Because I think I'm good, but not always kind.
因为我认为我很好，但并不总是善良。
It's how I challenge myself all the time.
这就是我一直挑战自己的方式。
Be kinder in that conversation.
在那次谈话中要友善一些。
And the big epiphany, we already talked about it, it shouldn't have taken me this long to realize that anytime an employee fails, it's your fault, be kind.
最大的顿悟，我们已经讨论过，我不应该花这么长时间才意识到，每当员工失败时，都是你的错，要友善。
You hired them.
你雇佣了他们。
They never knew what they were getting themselves into.
他们永远不知道自己将陷入什么境地。
If the job's too hard, if they lack the skills, if there's not enough budget, if there's not enough people, if it requires too many hours to work, you should have known that.
如果工作太辛苦，如果他们缺乏技能，如果没有足够的预算，如果没有足够的人员，如果需要太多的时间来工作，你应该知道这一点。
Not them.
不是他们。
Be kind.
友善一点。
Be kind to every single person on your team that doesn't work out.
善待团队中每一个不成功的人。
That's not just putting together an email spreadsheet and sending it out.
这不仅仅是整理电子邮件电子表格并将其发送出去。
Try, try harder.
努力吧，再努力一点。
Be there for them.
为他们提供帮助。
Be kind.
友善一点。
Lenny: Be kind.
莱尼：友善一点。
I love this.
我喜欢这个。
I know that you actually, your username on Twitter includes, "Be kind." In your actual-
我知道你在 Twitter 上的用户名实际上包括“友善一点”。在你的实际-
Lenny: So, you really back this up.
莱尼：所以，你确实支持这一点。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Okay, final question.
好的，最后一个问题。
You're on a giant conference, SaaStr.
您正在参加一个大型会议，SaaStr。
Lenny: First of all, just talk about what it is so people know and explore it and check it out.
莱尼：首先，谈谈它是什么，以便人们了解它、探索它并检查它。
But the actual question is what would surprise people most about running a conference like this?
但真正的问题是，举办这样的会议最让人们感到惊讶的是什么？
Things that they know, think about it goes into running a conference like this.
他们所知道的、思考的事情都适用于举办这样的会议。
Jason Lemkin: Any business, no matter how weird it is, that's at scale, the best one in it, it's always interesting, I think for case studies, right?
Jason Lemkin：任何企业，无论它多么奇怪，都是规模化的，是其中最好的，它总是很有趣，我认为对于案例研究来说，对吗？
The best, pick anything, the best cup maker, whoever it is, whoever makes the best...
最好的，随便选，最好的制杯师，不管是谁，谁做的最好……
This is not an interesting business, the Starbucks cup on its own, but the best person, I pretty much guarantee you there's a good story there, right?
这不是一个有趣的生意，星巴克杯子本身，但最好的人，我几乎向你保证那里有一个好故事，对吧？
SaaStr is a community as well like you have.
SaaStr 和您一样也是一个社区。
We started this really early in 2011, 2012 for B2B founders back when that seemed like a weird thing to do.
我们早在 2011 年、2012 年就为 B2B 创始人开始了这项工作，当时这似乎是一件奇怪的事情。
Now it doesn't seem so weird.
现在看来并不那么奇怪了。
So, we built a lot of content and we started doing events and meetups.
因此，我们构建了很多内容，并开始举办活动和聚会。
I never did a meetup.
我从来没有参加过聚会。
You do a lot of meetups, but when I did meetups, I'd never actually even been to one.
你们举办了很多聚会，但当我参加聚会时，我什至从未真正去过一次。
So, I did meetups in 2012 and 2013, but 1,000 people came to the meetups.
所以，我在 2012 年和 2013 年举办了聚会，但是有 1000 人参加了聚会。
Jason Lemkin: That will make sense to you today, but a decade ago for B2B, it was pretty, people were like, "Why are all these people here?
Jason Lemkin：这对今天的你来说是有意义的，但十年前对于 B2B 来说，这很漂亮，人们会说，“为什么这么多人都在这里？
We thought there was six of us that cared about B2B." So, then we did a big event.
我们认为我们有六个人关心 B2B。”所以，然后我们做了一个大活动。
We did a one-day SaaStr annual in 2015, and 3000 people came including the evening.
2015 年，我们举办了为期一天的 SaaSstr 年会，包括晚上在内，共有 3000 人参加。
And so we just kept going.
所以我们就继续前进。
So, we get about 10 to 12,000 people together a year.
所以，我们每年大约有 10 到 12,000 人聚集在一起。
What that means is change.
这意味着改变。
It's no longer novel.
这已经不是什么新鲜事了。
I'm not the only person producing B2B content anymore.
我不再是唯一一个制作 B2B 内容的人了。
I'm not the only founder that sold their company like in the old days.
我并不是唯一像以前那样出售公司的创始人。
There's plenty much more successful founders and better, I certainly, I don't do very many podcasts, because I'm not a hundredth as good as you.
有很多更成功的创始人和更好的，我当然，我不做很多播客，因为我没有你的百分之一。
I do one a quarter, for example.
例如，我每季度做一次。
Jason Lemkin: But the events have become this meeting place for founders that have hit scale, that are somewhere between 1 million and 20 million.
Jason Lemkin：但是这些活动已经成为规模达到 100 万到 2000 万的创始人的聚会场所。
And especially folks that aren't in Silicon Valley, especially folks that aren't sitting in Hayes Valley or wherever, that don't have a community.
尤其是那些不在硅谷的人，尤其是不在海耶斯谷或其他地方的人，他们没有社区。
And that surprised me in the beginning how many international folks would fly all the way to the Bay Area.
一开始让我惊讶的是有多少国际人士会一路飞往湾区。
I remember this founder came from Perth, Australia for the first afternoon.
我记得这位创始人第一天下午就从澳大利亚珀斯来了。
I'm like, "Thanks for coming, but this is a lot of work." He is like, "I didn't come for you.
我说：“谢谢你来，但这工作量很大。”他说：“我不是来找你的。
I came because there's no one like me in Perth." So, it's taken on a life of its own.
我来是因为珀斯没有像我这样的人。”所以，它有了自己的生命。
There's a lot of learnings.
有很多值得学习的地方。
I think, I didn't intend to do mass scale events.
我想，我并不想举办大规模的活动。
I intended to just do meetups, because I had a community like you do meetups.
我打算只举办聚会，因为我有一个像你们一样举办聚会的社区。
So, it was absolutely an accident.
所以，这绝对是一次意外。
The learnings are, it's extremely expensive and it has this weird curve.
我们得到的教训是，它非常昂贵，而且有这种奇怪的曲线。
Okay, that's this weird curve where, and this is more because I think actually all founders, all startups should be doing events for their own customers, at least steak dinners I've written about.
好吧，这就是这条奇怪的曲线，这更多的是因为我认为实际上所有创始人、所有初创公司都应该为自己的客户举办活动，至少是我写过的牛排晚餐。
You should get your customers, if you get your customers and prospects together, you sell more.
你应该吸引你的客户，如果你把你的客户和潜在客户聚集在一起，你就能卖出更多。
Get your customers and...
吸引您的客户并...
It does not need to be a million dollar or 10 million event.
它不需要是一百万美元或一千万美元的活动。
It can be Roots Chrises, it can be whatever.
可以是Roots Chrises，也可以是任何东西。
It does not even need to be fancy.
它甚至不需要很花哨。
Just get them together.
只要让他们在一起就可以了。
Jason Lemkin: Yeah, well, no, but steak does work.
杰森·莱姆金：是的，好吧，不，但是牛排确实有用。
I mean, I'm not a big steak guy.
我是说，我不是一个喜欢吃牛排的人。
It could be any, just something nice where they want to go.
它可以是任何东西，只是他们想去的地方的好东西。
It, just where they want to go.
它，正是他们想去的地方。
Your customers will sell your prospects for you.
您的客户将为您出售您的潜在客户。
Your customers will do the selling for you bring them together.
您的客户将把他们聚集在一起为您进行销售。
Jason Lemkin: When you do it really small, it's cheap, because how much does that back room cost at the steakhouse, right?
Jason Lemkin：当你做得很小时，它很便宜，因为牛排馆的后室要花多少钱，对吧？
It's worth it if you get one big deal out of it, right?
如果你从中得到了一件大事，那就值得了，对吧？
And then you graduate and then you'll do a meetup and you'll do it at someone's office.
然后你毕业了，然后你会在某人的办公室举行一次聚会。
Some tech company, they'll give it to you for free, they have an extra office.
一些科技公司，他们会免费给你，他们有一个额外的办公室。
That costs nothing, right?
这不花钱，对吧？
And then you're like, "Well, that went well.
然后你会说：“嗯，进展顺利。
We got 100, 200 people came to Lenny's thing at Digital Ocean." And then you say, "I'm gonna do an event." And then you rent a theater, a disuse.
我们有 100、200 人来到 Digital Ocean 观看 Lenny 的活动。”然后你说：“我要举办一个活动。”然后你租了一个剧院，废弃了。
And these theaters are actually kind of cheap because they're dark during the day.
这些剧院实际上很便宜，因为白天很黑。
There's not a lot going on and a lot of...
没有发生太多事情，还有很多……
Not movie theaters but music.
不是电影院，而是音乐。
So, those are cheap.
所以，那些很便宜。
But then you're like, "Well, there's only one stage and it smells like beer."
但你会想，“好吧，只有一个舞台，而且闻起来像啤酒。”
Jason Lemkin: So, then the next year you do a hotel and a hotel's pretty expensive.
杰森·莱姆金：所以，明年你会开一家酒店，而酒店的价格相当昂贵。
It's like half a million, 800,000 and I hated hotels.
就像五十万、八十万，我讨厌酒店。
But you know what I learned from the business model?
但你知道我从商业模式中学到了什么吗？
It's turnkey landing.
这是交钥匙着陆。
So, your marketing manager can call up the Hilton in any city and in two weeks spool up some mediocre AV, some mediocre chicken wings and drinks, okay?
所以，你的营销经理可以给任何城市的希尔顿打电话，并在两周内提供一些平庸的 AV、一些平庸的鸡翅和饮料，好吗？
And you and I don't like to go to the Hilton that much.
而你和我不太喜欢去希尔顿。
The ballroom C, we don't like to go to events , but it turns out your customers don't care.
宴会厅 C，我们不喜欢参加活动，但事实证明您的客户并不关心。
They want to be together and talk about your app, right?
他们想聚在一起讨论您的应用程序，对吧？
And then if you do community like you do, you could probably charge a couple $100 for tickets and get some sponsors and bring in some revenue, right?
然后，如果你像你一样做社区，你可能会收取 100 美元的门票，并获得一些赞助商并带来一些收入，对吧？
But then after Hilton Ballroom B, it costs $2 million to turn the lights on.
但在希尔顿 B 宴会厅之后，开灯需要花费 200 万美元。
Jason Lemkin: And SaaStr annual...
Jason Lemkin：还有 SaaSstr 年度...
So, our Europa event in London's in early June, June fourth to fifth, please come if you want.
所以，我们六月初在伦敦举办的欧洲活动，六月四到五，如果你愿意的话请来。
That costs $2 million to turn the lights on in London.
伦敦的电灯需要花费 200 万美元。
To turn the lights on in the Bay Area for 12,000 people in September in the Bay Area, which is the most expensive place, right?
9月份湾区给12000人开灯，那是湾区最贵的地方吧？
It's $10 million to turn the lights on.
开灯需要 1000 万美元。
Jason Lemkin: It's $10 million to turn the lights on.
Jason Lemkin：开灯需要 1000 万美元。
Now, I'm being a little expansive in what I mean by turn the lights on, but this is what it's going to cost you.
现在，我所说的“打开灯”的含义有点宽泛，但这就是你要付出的代价。
It's going to cost you about $1000 per attendee in the Bay Area or Las Vegas to have a mass scale event.
在湾区或拉斯维加斯举办一场大规模活动，每位与会者的费用约为 1000 美元。
Not smaller, not one day in Grand Ballroom B, but a multi-day event, right?
规模不小，不是在大宴会厅 B 举行一天，而是一场持续多天的活动，对吧？
The AV is 1.5 million.
AV为150万。
The food and beverage is 1.5 million.
餐饮150万。
The tenting is $800,000.
帐篷费用为80万美元。
I can keep going.
我可以继续前进。
So, once you get to 20, 30, 40 million in revenue, quietly, there's public companies out there.
所以，一旦你的收入达到 20、30、4000 万，就会悄悄地出现上市公司。
Jason Lemkin: They have software like Margins at that scale, but before that, it's brutal, right?
Jason Lemkin：他们有像 Margins 这样规模的软件，但在此之前，它很残酷，对吧？
And when I started doing these events, I interviewed the head of it back before March 2020 when tech companies did their own events, they've pretty much given up, which is an interesting side topic.
当我开始做这些活动时，我在 2020 年 3 月之前采访了它的负责人，当时科技公司举办了自己的活动，他们几乎已经放弃了，这是一个有趣的侧面话题。
Big ones like big, not small ones, but big ones.
大的喜欢大，不是小就是喜欢大。
Biden View, the head of events at everyone, right?
拜登观点，每个人的活动负责人，对吧？
At Twilio and Marketo and dah, dah.
在 Twilio 和 Marketo 以及 dah，dah。
They all be like, "Well, how'd the event go?" It'd all be the same.
他们都会说，“好吧，活动进行得怎么样？”一切都会一样。
Well, we brought in about 1.5 million revenue.
嗯，我们带来了大约150万的收入。
" Oh, okay." "And we lost 2 million." Everyone lost 2 million.
“ 哦好的。” “我们损失了 200 万。”每个人都损失了200万。
Every single one lost 2 million.
每人损失200万。
And you could see in the financial state, even Zoom at that scale just announced how much money they lose at Zoomtopia.
从财务状况来看，即使是这种规模的 Zoom 也刚刚公布了 Zoomtopia 损失了多少钱。
So, it's a terrible business.
所以，这是一个糟糕的生意。
What I like to say is it has diseconomies of scale.
我想说的是它存在规模不经济。
The Lenny's little free meetup costs zero, right?
莱尼的小型免费聚会成本为零，对吗？
And then the one at Cloudflare's office costs zero.
然后 Cloudflare 办公室的费用为零。
Jason Lemkin: And the one at Hilton B maybe costs $200, but then it costs $1000 per person at scale, right?
Jason Lemkin：希尔顿 B 的价格可能是 200 美元，但大规模的话每人要花费 1000 美元，对吗？
Even more like Moscone like in San Francisco is probably the most expensive.
甚至更像旧金山的莫斯康 (Moscone) 可能是最贵的。
You're approaching $2,000 per person, because you have to buy about 15 to 20 million of hotel nights to do an event in Moscone, right?
每人花费接近 2,000 美元，因为您必须购买大约 15 至 2000 万间酒店住宿才能在 Moscone 举办活动，对吧？
So I don't know if that's...
所以我不知道那是不是...
We could, I mean it's a side topic, Lenny's side podcast for people that care.
我们可以，我的意思是这是一个侧面主题，莱尼为关心的人提供的侧面播客。
But this diseconomies of scale.
但这会造成规模不经济。
But there are a handful of public companies that do Lions, Money 2020, Shoptalk, a few others that are at SaaStr scale.
但也有少数上市公司在做 Lions、Money 2020、Shoptalk，还有一些达到 SaaStr 规模的公司。
And they cobbled together these very profitable public companies.
他们拼凑了这些利润丰厚的上市公司。
But they all got to do at least 20 to 30 million, because you've got to get over a 10.
但他们都必须至少完成 20 到 3000 万次，因为你必须得到 10 分以上。
And it's intimidating to get over a $10 million net, right?
获得超过 1000 万美元的净资产是令人生畏的，对吧？
Jason Lemkin: And so what it means is we have to spend 14 to 16 months each year planning for SaaStr annual because it's not that fun if you fall six or $8 million behind.
Jason Lemkin：这意味着我们每年必须花费 14 到 16 个月来规划 SaaSstr 年度计划，因为如果落后六或八百万美元，那就没那么有趣了。
That's what happened in March 2020.
这就是 2020 年 3 月发生的事情。
We were the first major event to be canceled by COVID in March 2020.
我们是 2020 年 3 月第一个因新冠疫情而取消的重大活动。
The first one, RSA happened for security the week before then we got canceled.
第一个是 RSA，出于安全原因，在我们被取消的前一周发生了。
So, we lost $10 million in one day and it took a long time to dig out of that hole, Lenny, especially since we monetize nothing, it took a long time, but they're worth it.
所以，我们一天就损失了 1000 万美元，花了很长时间才摆脱这个坑，莱尼，特别是因为我们没有任何货币化，所以花了很长时间，但他们是值得的。
Jason Lemkin: I know you don't do traditional events, but you do do meetups in your community, and I know they're worth it.
Jason Lemkin：我知道你们不举办传统活动，但你们确实在社区中举办聚会，而且我知道这是值得的。
I know they're worth it.
我知道他们值得。
Bringing your customers together, bringing your community together, and we talked about this offline before we started.
将您的客户聚集在一起，将您的社区聚集在一起，我们在开始之前就在线下讨论了这一点。
Second tier, third tier events I do not think are worth it because they do not attract the best people.
我认为第二梯队、第三梯队的活动不值得，因为它们不能吸引最优秀的人才。
It's just a fact.
这只是事实。
Most people, it turns out from our founders are our core ICP.
大多数人，事实证明我们的创始人是我们的核心ICP。
They go to two events a year on average, two events a year, okay?
他们平均每年参加两次活动，一年两次活动，好吗？
And they'll do other steak dinners.
他们还会做其他牛排晚餐。
So, if you go to one of the two that they're at, you just might bump into Jeff Lawson or Eric Juan or whoever the next one.
所以，如果你去他们所在的两家公司之一，你可能会遇到杰夫·劳森（Jeff Lawson）或埃里克·胡安（Eric Juan）或下一位。
They might be there.
他们可能在那里。
That might be one of their two, but they don't go to number three through 10.
这可能是他们的两个之一，但他们不会进入第三到第十。
They don't go to these.
他们不去这些。
So, my role in general is people wonder, should I go to events?
所以，我的角色一般是人们想知道，我应该去参加活动吗？
Is it worth my time?
值得我花时间吗？
It's a waste of time.
这是浪费时间。
Jason Lemkin: And I know you've thought about it.
杰森·莱姆金：我知道你已经考虑过这个问题。
And the irony is, even though we produce events, I used to think that.
具有讽刺意味的是，尽管我们制造了事件，但我曾经这么认为。
I didn't want to do events, I just wanted to do meetups, right?
我不想举办活动，我只是想做聚会，对吗？
I was shy, I just wanted to do meetups.
我很害羞，我只是想参加聚会。
But then I learned over time that the best events bring the best vendors, the best executives, the best everything together.
但随着时间的推移，我了解到，最好的活动会将最好的供应商、最好的管理人员、最好的一切聚集在一起。
So, pick the one or two best events in your industry.
因此，选择您所在行业的一两个最佳活动。
And even if you're antisocial, try to go to one or two a year, go along.
即使你不喜欢社交，也可以尝试每年去一两次，去吧。
It pays off.
它得到了回报。
It pays off, but maybe don't bother with the rest, even if they're ski slopes or they're fun that the subscale, subscale just doesn't work for meeting and marketing to people.
这是有回报的，但也许不用担心其余的事情，即使它们是滑雪场，或者它们很有趣，因为子量表、子量表不适用于与人们会面和营销。
It just doesn't work.
它就是行不通。
Lenny: I said at the top of this podcast that there's a billion things that we could talk about, and I think that's exactly what happened.
莱尼：我在这个播客的开头说过，我们可以谈论十亿件事，我认为这正是发生的事情。
We can go in so many directions.
我们可以朝很多方向发展。
And that alone was extremely interesting, because people want me to run a conference and I really don't.
仅此一点就非常有趣，因为人们希望我主持一次会议，但我真的不这样做。
And I really enjoy the meetups that we have now.
我真的很喜欢我们现在的聚会。
And we actually do have sponsors that cover drinks and food and things like that, and they're very chill, and I really love what happens at those things.
事实上，我们确实有赞助商提供饮料、食物和类似的东西，他们非常冷静，我真的很喜欢这些事情上发生的事情。
But yes, this is really good information.
但是，是的，这确实是很好的信息。
Jason, I have two more questions for you that I ask everyone.
杰森，我还有两个问题要问大家。
I think we went through a couple of these things, but just real quick, where can folks find you if they want to reach out and maybe follow up on some of the stuff you talked about?
我想我们经历了一些这样的事情，但很快，如果人们想要联系并跟进你谈论的一些事情，他们可以在哪里找到你？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Jason Lemkin: In general just go to this kooky, URL, SaaStr, saastr.com.
Jason Lemkin：一般来说，只需访问这个奇怪的 URL、SaaStr、saastr.com。
That's a way to access a lot of what we're talking about.
这是获取我们正在讨论的很多内容的一种方式。
If they want to reach me to be transparent, I get a lot of impound, like I'm sure you do, to be honest, guys, it is hard to process the amount of inbound that folks get, right?
如果他们想联系我以保持透明，我会被扣押很多，就像我确信你们一样，老实说，伙计们，很难处理人们收到的入境数量，对吗？
But I'll give you an insider tip.
但我会给你一个内幕消息。
I do see almost all of it.
我几乎都看到了。
So, if you want to reach me, if you just want an hour of my time randomly, I'm sorry, honestly, I'm sorry, I don't have that hour of time, okay?
所以，如果你想联系我，如果你只是想随机占用我一个小时的时间，对不起，老实说，对不起，我没有那个小时的时间，好吗？
But if you want to interact lightly, I mean, I'm on Twitter all most days @Jasonlk.
但如果你想轻松互动，我的意思是，我大部分时间都在 Twitter 上@Jasonlk。
I'm on LinkedIn a lot, just search for me, Jason Lemkin.
我经常使用 LinkedIn，只需搜索我，Jason Lemkin。
LinkedIn's pretty cool.
LinkedIn 非常酷。
I have 260,000 followers.
我有 260,000 名追随者。
We have really good conversations.
我们的谈话非常愉快。
And I will tell you, if you have a question like you really need some help in your business or you want to do a pitch, if you send me the world's best email pitch, I will read a 100% of them.
我会告诉你，如果你有一个问题，比如你的业务确实需要一些帮助，或者你想做一个推介，如果你给我发送世界上最好的电子邮件推介，我会 100% 阅读。
Jason Lemkin: Track it, put it in Mixmax, put it in HubSpot, put it...
Jason Lemkin：追踪它，将其放入 Mixmax，将其放入 HubSpot，将其...
You'll see I'll open that email if the title's good.
你会发现，如果标题不错，我会打开该电子邮件。
It doesn't mean I can respond.
这并不意味着我可以回应。
I'm sorry, no, Lenny can't respond, but realize it is going to be read.
抱歉，不，莱尼无法回复，但意识到它会被阅读。
If you need a favor, like a help, if you ask the question super discreetly like, "Jason, here's the LinkedIn, I'm Lenny.
如果你需要帮助，比如需要帮助，如果你非常谨慎地提出问题，比如“杰森，这是 LinkedIn，我是莱尼。
I'm trying to hire this person.
我正在尝试雇用这个人。
I'm at four millionaire doubling.
我的百万富翁翻倍了四倍。
Should I hire her?" There's a chance I'll look at that LinkedIn, I can tell you, or if it's one question, but if it's an hour or coffee, it isn't going to work, but it is going to get read.
我应该雇用她吗？”我可以告诉你，我有机会会看一下 LinkedIn，或者如果只是一个问题，但如果是一个小时或一杯咖啡，那是行不通的，但它会被阅读。
So, do that by email.
因此，请通过电子邮件进行操作。
Do it even by LinkedIn.
甚至可以通过 LinkedIn 进行操作。
I didn't used to read those LinkedIn emails, but if it's really good, I will read it and I probably respond to five or six of them a day.
我以前不读那些 LinkedIn 电子邮件，但如果真的很好，我会读它，而且我可能每天回复五六封。
Jason Lemkin: I give to the extent that it's helpful, free answers, free advice.
Jason Lemkin：只要有帮助，我都会提供免费的答案和免费的建议。
Not that I charge for anything, but make it good.
并不是说我要收取任何费用，而是要让它变得更好。
Don't ask for coffee.
不要要咖啡。
So, many folks have written this, the most important people in the world read email.
所以，很多人都写了这篇文章，世界上最重要的人都阅读电子邮件。
It's an open medium, right?
这是一个开放的媒介，对吧？
And a subset of those folks actually read their social media.
其中一部分人实际上会阅读他们的社交媒体。
Even Elon Musk reads his, before he bought Twitter, he read it.
就连埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）也读过他的文章，在他购买 Twitter 之前，他也读过它。
You can access almost anyone in this industry.
您几乎可以接触到这个行业的任何人。
Just be super strategic about how you do it.
只是对你的做法要有超级战略性。
Again, put yourself in your shoes.
再次，设身处地为你着想。
Would you answer this?
你会回答这个问题吗？
Would you do this?
你会这样做吗？
But I would say half the stuff gets open to read.
但我想说一半的内容是开放阅读的。
So, I know that's a rambly answer, but first, we talked about sales.
所以，我知道这是一个漫无目的的答案，但首先，我们讨论了销售。
You can reach anybody in the world via email.
您可以通过电子邮件联系世界上的任何人。
It's magical.
这很神奇。
Lenny: I'm sorry for the many emails you might get from this podcast.
莱尼：对于您可能从这个播客中收到的许多电子邮件，我深表歉意。
That is actually really good advice.
这实际上是一个很好的建议。
Resonates deeply with me as well.
也引起了我深深的共鸣。
Jason, thank you so much for being here.
杰森，非常感谢你来到这里。
Jason Lemkin: Thank you for all the time, Lenny.
杰森·莱姆金：一直以来谢谢你，莱尼。
I'm a super fan.
我是一个超级粉丝。
It's great to be here and let me know anything I can do to support you or your community going forward.
很高兴来到这里，让我知道我可以做些什么来支持您或您的社区前进。
Lenny: I really appreciate that.
莱尼：我真的很感激。
And the same in reverse.
反之亦然。
Bye everyone.
再见大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's podcast.com.
您可以在 Lenny's podcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。