Jason Fried challenges your thinking on fundraising, goals, growth, and more

Jason Fried: The reason I think it's great for entrepreneurs to start bootstrapping is because they just have more practice making money, and they get better, and better, and better at the fundamental skill you need to have ultimately to run a successful business, which is to make money.

杰森·弗里德：我认为创业者开始白手起家是一件好事，因为他们有更多赚钱的练习，而且他们在经营一家成功企业最终所需的基本技能方面变得越来越好，这就是赚钱。

Hopefully, I don't come off as encouraging everyone to be like me.

希望我不会表现得鼓励每个人都像我一样。

I'm not saying that at all.

我根本不是这么说的。

What I'm saying is, this is a way to be.

我想说的是，这是一种方式。

It's an alternative to what you're often hearing in our industry, which is, "Go big or go home.

这与您在我们行业中经常听到的“要么做大，要么回家”的说法不同。

Raise a bunch of money and get huge, and unicorn status," and the whole thing.

筹集一大笔钱并获得巨大的独角兽地位，”以及整个事情。

That's a way.

这是一个办法。

Just know though that basically almost nobody makes it that way.

但要知道，基本上几乎没有人能做到这一点。

Really, almost nobody really makes it that way, and there's a lot more room to make it, and to build a successful business, if you throw out that outlier and look at all the other places you can land as a business.

真的，几乎没有人真正做到这一点，而且如果你扔掉那个异常值并看看你可以作为一个企业登陆的所有其他地方，那么还有更大的空间来做到这一点，并建立一个成功的企业。

Lenny: Today, my guest is Jason Fried.

莱尼：今天，我的客人是贾森·弗里德。

Jason is the Co-Founder and CEO of 37signals, which makes Basecamp and HEY, and soon a few more products including a competitor to Slack.

Jason 是 37signals 的联合创始人兼首席执行官，该公司生产 Basecamp 和 HEY，很快还会推出更多产品，包括 Slack 的竞争对手。

37signals is a very different type of company.

37signals 是一家非常不同类型的公司。

They have no investors, no board.

他们没有投资者，没有董事会。

They have no plans to go public.

他们没有上市计划。

They never want to sell their business.

他们从来不想出售自己的企业。

They've made a profit for 24 years in a row.

他们已经连续24年盈利。

They have over 100,000 customers and make tens of millions of dollars in profit each year, which most VC-backed companies never make a dollar of.

他们拥有超过 100,000 名客户，每年赚取数千万美元的利润，而大多数风投支持的公司却从未从中赚到一美元。

All of this profit filters down to the founders and employees because they have no investors.

所有这些利润都归创始人和员工所有，因为他们没有投资者。

Most founders, by default, will go down the venture route raising money from VCs and Angels.

默认情况下，大多数创始人都会走风险投资路线，从风投和天使投资人那里筹集资金。

For many types of companies, that is necessary.

对于许多类型的公司来说，这是必要的。

But it's also important to know that there is a different option available, and it can be much more fulfilling and fun, and even much more lucrative, by bootstrapping your idea.

但同样重要的是要知道，有一个不同的选择，通过引导你的想法，它可以变得更加充实和有趣，甚至更有利可图。

Lenny: In my conversation with Jason, we get into why constraints like small teams and less cash often lead to better outcomes.

莱尼：在我与杰森的谈话中，我们了解到为什么像小团队和更少的现金这样的限制往往会带来更好的结果。

Why gut and instinct is underappreciated as a decision-making tool.

为什么直觉和本能作为决策工具没有得到充分重视。

Why planning long-term is often a mistake.

为什么长期计划往往是一个错误。

Why work doesn't have to feel like war.

为什么工作不必感觉像战争。

Why we should focus on playing infinite games.

为什么我们应该专注于玩无限游戏。

When it makes sense to consider raising venture capital versus bootstrapping.

当考虑筹集风险资本而不是自力更生有意义时。

How to actually bootstrap your startup, so much more.

如何真正引导您的初创公司等等。

Jason is fascinating, and he's got a lot of wisdom to share.

杰森很迷人，他有很多智慧可以分享。

I'm excited to be able to bring you this conversation.

我很高兴能够为您带来这次对话。

With that, I bring you Jason Fried, after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言之后，我为您带来了杰森·弗里德（Jason Fried）。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

莱尼：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。

You've heard me talk about how Coda is the doc that brings it all together, and how can help your team run smoother and be more efficient.

您已经听过我谈论 Coda 如何成为将所有内容整合在一起的文档，以及如何帮助您的团队运行得更顺畅、更高效。

I know this firsthand because Coda does that for me.

我直接知道这一点，因为 Coda 为我做到了这一点。

I use Coda every day to wrangle my newsletter content calendar, my interview notes for podcasts, and to coordinate my sponsors.

我每天都使用 Coda 来整理我的时事通讯内容日历、播客采访笔记，并协调我的赞助商。

More recently, I actually wrote a whole post on how Coda's product team operates.

最近，我实际上写了一篇关于 Coda 产品团队如何运作的文章。

Within that post, they shared a dozen templates that they use internally to run their product team, including managing the roadmap, their OKR process, getting internal feedback.

在那篇文章中，他们分享了十几个内部使用的模板来运行他们的产品团队，包括管理路线图、OKR 流程、获取内部反馈。

Essentially their whole product development process is done within Coda.

基本上他们的整个产品开发过程都是在 Coda 内完成的。

Lenny: If your team's work is spread out across different documents and spreadsheets, and a stack of workflow tools, that's why you need Coda.

Lenny：如果您的团队的工作分散在不同的文档和电子表格以及一堆工作流程工具中，那么这就是您需要 Coda 的原因。

Coda puts data in one centralized location, regardless of format, eliminating roadblocks that can slow your team down.

Coda 将数据放在一个集中位置，无论其格式如何，消除了可能拖慢团队速度的障碍。

Coda allows your team to operate on the same information and collaborate in one place.

Coda 允许您的团队在一个地方处理相同的信息并进行协作。

Take advantage of this special limited time offer just for startups.

利用这一专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Sign up today at coda.io/lenny and get $1,000 startup credit on your first statement.

立即在 coda.io/lenny 上注册，并在您的第一份账单上获得 1,000 美元的启动积分。

That's C-O-D-A dot I-O slash Lenny, to sign up and get a startup credit of $1,000.

这是 C-O-D-A 点 I-O 斜线 Lenny，注册并获得 1,000 美元的启动信用。

Coda.io/Lenny.

Coda.io/莱尼。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Sidebar.

莱尼：这一集是由 Sidebar 为您带来的。

Are you looking to land your next big career move or start your own thing?

您是否正在寻找下一个重大职业变动或开始自己的事业？

One of the most effective ways to create a big leap in your career, and something that worked really well for me a few years ago, is to create a personal board of directors, a trusted peer group where you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

实现职业生涯重大飞跃的最有效方法之一，也是几年前对我来说非常有效的方法，就是创建一个个人董事会，一个值得信赖的同行小组，在这里你可以讨论你遇到的挑战，获得职业建议，并直觉地检查你如何看待你的工作、你的职业和你的生活。

This has been a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group.

这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变，但建立这个值得信赖的团队很困难。

With Sidebar, senior leaders are matched with highly vetted, private, supportive peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives, and raw feedback.

通过 Sidebar，高级领导者可以与经过严格审查的、私密的、支持性的同行群体相匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Lenny: Everyone has their own zone of genius, so together we're better prepared to navigate professional pitfalls, leading to more responsibility, faster promotions, and bigger impact.

莱尼：每个人都有自己的天才区，因此我们一起更好地准备克服职业陷阱，从而承担更多的责任，更快的晋升和更大的影响。

Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, Sidebar enables you to get focused, tactical feedback at every step of your journey.

在世界一流的编程和便利的指导下，Sidebar 使您能够在旅程的每一步获得有针对性的战术反馈。

If you're a listener of this podcast, you're likely already driven and committed to growth.

如果您是此播客的听众，您可能已经有动力并致力于成长。

A Sidebar personal board of directors is the missing piece to catalyze that journey.

侧栏个人董事会是催化这一旅程所缺失的部分。

Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today?

今天您就可以在补充工具栏上见到您的朋友，为什么要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？

Jump the growing waitlist of thousands of leaders from top tech companies by visiting Sidebar.com/Lenny to learn more.

访问 Sidebar.com/Lenny 以了解更多信息，从而跳过由顶级科技公司的数千名领导者组成的不断增长的候补名单。

That's Sidebar.com/ Lenny.

那是 Sidebar.com/Lenny。

Lenny: Jason, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：杰森，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Jason Fried: Thanks, Lenny.

杰森·弗里德：谢谢，莱尼。

It's good to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: It's really good to have you on.

莱尼：有你在真是太好了。

I have this new segment on the podcast that I call Contrarian Corner, and I have this feeling like this entire episode is going to be Contrarian Corner.

我在播客上有一个新的片段，我称之为“逆向角落”，我有这种感觉，整个剧集都将是“逆向角落”。

I'm excited to dig into all kinds of stuff.

我很高兴能够深入研究各种东西。

I have so many questions I want to ask you.

我有很多问题想问你。

I thought it'd be good to just start with giving people who aren't that familiar with your story and 37signals, a sense of just how successful the business has been.

我认为最好先让不太熟悉您的故事和 37signals 的人们了解该业务有多么成功。

I think people don't quite get the business you've built, and the scale you've built.

我认为人们不太了解你所建立的业务以及你所建立的规模。

So whatever you can share in terms of customers, profits, anything you are comfortable sharing, I'd love to give people...

因此，无论你能在客户、利润方面分享什么，任何你愿意分享的东西，我都愿意给人们……

Especially things that might surprise people, just a sense of like, "Wow, this business is not what I imagined."

尤其是那些可能会让人们感到惊讶的事情，只是一种感觉，“哇，这个行业不是我想象的那样。”

Jason Fried: We don't talk about things that don't really matter so much, like revenues don't really matter 'cause you can go broke generating a lot of money.

杰森·弗里德：我们不会谈论那些不太重要的事情，比如收入并不重要，因为你可能会因为赚很多钱而破产。

But, we talk about profits.

但是，我们谈论的是利润。

Historically, let's say over the past 10 years or so, we've been profitable every year for 24 years.

从历史上看，比如说在过去 10 年左右的时间里，我们已经连续 24 年每年实现盈利。

But let's say over the last 10 years, we've been doing double-digit million dollar profits on an annual basis, which is really nice.

但假设在过去 10 年里，我们每年的利润都达到了数百万美元，这真的很好。

We have about a 100,000 plus paying customers, so that's a rough number, and we've about currently 75 or so employees.

我们有大约 100,000 多名付费客户，所以这是一个粗略数字，目前我们大约有 75 名左右的员工。

Jason Fried: So, a relatively small business in terms of the number of people who work here, big customer base, big profits, and that's how we like to keep it, and that's something that we've always focused on, versus a lot of these other metrics that I hear a lot, and usually there's acronyms attached to them, and of don't even know what they are, and I don't really care about them so much.

贾森·弗里德：所以，就在这里工作的人数、大客户群、高利润而言，这是一个相对较小的企业，这就是我们希望保持它的方式，也是我们一直关注的事情，与我经常听到的许多其他指标相比，它们通常附有缩写词，甚至不知道它们是什么，我也不太关心它们。

We just want to make more money than we spend, have good healthy margins which allow us to experiment, and play, and not be afraid to do things that may not work, and just enjoy ourselves.

我们只是想赚比花的更多的钱，拥有良好的健康利润，让我们能够尝试和玩耍，不要害怕做可能行不通的事情，只是享受自己。

So that's what we've been doing for almost 25 years.

这就是我们近 25 年来一直在做的事情。

Next year will be our 25th year in business.

明年将是我们创业的第 25 年。

Lenny: Just following the same thread, the bet that companies are making, obviously going down the venture route, they're going to lose money for a long time so that they can make much, much more money in the future.

莱尼：按照同样的思路，公司所做的赌注，显然是走风险投资路线，他们将在很长一段时间内亏损，这样他们就可以在未来赚更多的钱。

So the idea there is, grow as fast as possible, as big as possible, and then we'll make money.

所以我们的想法是，尽可能快、尽可能大地发展，然后我们就能赚钱。

You're a big advocate of not raising venture and bootstrapping.

您大力提倡不要进行风险投资和自力更生。

So what's your advice to founders for when raising money makes sense?

那么，当融资有意义时，您对创始人有何建议？

I actually wrote this article, one's called, Your Startup Is Probably Not Venture-Scale, just trying to convince people, you may have a really good idea, but it doesn't mean it's a venture-scale business.

实际上，我写了这篇文章，名为“你的初创公司可能不是风险规模的”，只是想说服人们，你可能有一个非常好的想法，但这并不意味着它是一个风险规模的企业。

I feel like we're aligned on this.

我觉得我们在这一点上是一致的。

What's your advice to founders there?

您对那里的创始人有什么建议？

Jason Fried: Obviously, if you're building cars, or you need a factory, or you're opening a restaurant and there's actual things you need to buy like ovens, and you need to hire people right off the bat, and you need to pay rent, you need capital.

杰森·弗里德：显然，如果你正在制造汽车，或者你需要一家工厂，或者你正在开一家餐馆，你需要购买像烤箱这样的实际东西，你需要立即雇用人员，你需要支付租金，你需要资本。

It could come from you.

它可能来自你。

It could come from friends and family.

它可能来自朋友和家人。

It could come from an investor.

它可能来自投资者。

It can come from a bank loan.

它可以来自银行贷款。

There's lots of places to get it, but you'd need it.

有很多地方可以得到它，但你需要它。

Software businesses though, and businesses like ours, we just make software, and a lot of people in our industry are like us in that respect.

不过，软件企业，以及像我们这样的企业，我们只是制造软件，我们行业中的很多人在这方面都和我们一样。

They need a couple laptops and a couple people, and it's pretty cheap.

他们需要几台笔记本电脑和几个人，而且价格相当便宜。

It's really pretty cheap to get going, and the margins are incredibly healthy in software, or they should be.

启动起来确实相当便宜，而且软件的利润率非常高，或者应该如此。

Jason Fried: What's interesting is that Silicon Valley has found a way to make the most profitable style of business the least profitable.

杰森·弗里德：有趣的是，硅谷已经找到了一种方法，让最赚钱的商业模式变得最赚钱。

Software, there's no physical costs.

软件，没有物理成本。

The margin should be close to 80 or 90%.

利润率应接近 80% 或 90%。

It turns out that they're barely even, most of them positive in the end, or they're just sliding by basically.

事实证明，它们几乎持平，大多数最终都是积极的，或者基本上只是滑过。

I don't understand how that...

我不明白这怎么...

Well, I do.

嗯，我愿意。

They have too many people and they spend too much money on customer acquisition, and all that.

他们有太多的人，在获取客户上花费了太多的钱，等等。

But, it blows me away.

但是，它让我震惊。

Most businesses in the world would love to have Silicon Valley style economics, make something that doesn't cost much to make and then sell it for high prices.

世界上大多数企业都希望拥有硅谷式的经济，制造一些制造成本不高的东西，然后以高价出售。

Jason Fried: But everyone, the corner store, the pizza shop, they wish they could do this, and they can't because they have physical products that they have to sell, and they have to buy goods, and they have to get raw materials and convert that into a pizza, and there's just costs involved with that.

杰森·弗里德：但是每个人，街角商店，披萨店，他们希望自己能做到这一点，但他们做不到，因为他们有必须出售的实物产品，他们必须购买商品，他们必须获得原材料并将其转化为披萨，而这只是涉及成本。

They can't sell it for too much because the other place down the street sells it for less.

他们不能卖得太高，因为街上的其他地方卖得更低。

So again, I'm getting off track, but if you're going to start a business that really truly requires cash, typically capital expenditures, expensive things, hardware, whatever, of course you need that.

再说一次，我偏离了轨道，但如果你要创办一家真正需要现金的企业，通常是资本支出、昂贵的东西、硬件，无论什么，你当然需要这些。

But, I don't think you do otherwise.

但是，我认为你不会做其他事情。

Jason Fried: I think it actually hurts you if you go out and think that you do, because there really is only one outcome for venture-backed companies, which is go huge.

贾森·弗里德（Jason Fried）：我认为，如果你出去认为你这样做了，那实际上会伤害你，因为对于风险投资支持的公司来说，实际上只有一种结果，那就是做大。

If you think about all of the space between a small business and a massive, huge unicorn-y business, there's so much room there that you could normally find your own way, and slide into a slot or a place that makes sense for you.

如果你考虑一下小型企业和大型独角兽企业之间的所有空间，就会发现那里有很大的空间，你通常可以找到自己的方式，并滑入对你有意义的槽或地方。

But if you're venture-backed, you just don't even have the opportunity.

但如果你有风险投资支持，你就连机会都没有。

You blow right past those, or they want you to blow right past those.

你直接超越那些，或者他们希望你超越那些。

If you don't, you wither on the vine and die essentially, and it's just too bad.

如果你不这样做，你就会在藤蔓上枯萎并死亡，这太糟糕了。

Lenny: Coming back to something we touched on a bit, is this idea of smaller teams.

Lenny：回到我们刚才提到的事情，就是小团队的想法。

You tweeted a similar stats, so I'm just going to read these numbers, in terms of your competitors.

您在推特​​上发布了类似的统计数据，所以我将根据您的竞争对手来阅读这些数字。

Asana has 1600 employees.

Asana 拥有 1600 名员工。

ClickUp has a thousand employees.

ClickUp 拥有一千名员工。

Slack has 2,500 employees.

Slack 拥有 2,500 名员工。

Smartsheet has 3000 employees.

Smartsheet 拥有 3000 名员工。

Monday has 1500 employees.

星期一有 1500 名员工。

You have, I think you said, 70 something employees?

我想你说过，你们有 70 多名员工？

Lenny: You have similar numbers of customers, about 100,000 to 150,000, and you make a lot of profit and they generally don't.

莱尼：你们的客户数量差不多，大约 10 万到 15 万，而且你们赚了很多利润，而他们通常没有。

How is this possible?

这怎么可能？

Jason Fried: We run a very different kind of business.

Jason Fried：我们经营的是一种非常不同的业务。

We are focused on efficiency, we're not focused on growth.

我们关注的是效率，而不是增长。

They're focused on growth.

他们专注于增长。

So typically, when you have a lot of people, you think you can do more things at once, and you probably can.

因此，通常情况下，当你有很多人时，你会认为你可以同时做更多的事情，而且你很可能可以。

You do more things at once, and have different offerings to different people, and different tiers, and salespeople, and all the things that build up an organization.

你可以同时做更多的事情，并为不同的人、不同的层级、销售人员以及构建组织的所有事物提供不同的产品。

We don't have any salespeople.

我们没有销售人员。

We don't have 15 different versions of Basecamp.

我们没有 15 个不同版本的 Basecamp。

We're not after enterprise, so we don't have the enormous support costs and enormous support infrastructure required to service customers like that, and customize this and customize that to keep a whale happy who's paying you $300,000 a year.

我们不追求企业，所以我们没有为这样的客户提供服务所需的巨大支持成本和巨大的支持基础设施，并定制这个和定制那个来让每年付给你 300,000 美元的鲸鱼开心。

Jason Fried: We don't have any of those things.

Jason Fried：我们没有这些东西。

We have one price, basically.

基本上我们有一个价格。

Well, we have two prices on Basecamp, one price on HEY.

嗯，我们在 Basecamp 上有两种价格，在 HEY 上有一种价格。

Actually, two prices on HEY.

实际上，嘿，有两个价格。

Two, basically.

基本上是两个。

But one code base, one product we offer everybody.

但我们为每个人提供一种代码库、一种产品。

Let's take Basecamp for example.

我们以 Basecamp 为例。

Nobody can pay us more than 300 bucks.

没有人可以付给我们超过 300 美元。

I don't care how big your company is, the most you can pay us is $299, you get unlimited users.

我不管你的公司有多大，你最多可以付给我们 299 美元，你可以获得无限的用户。

What that allows us to do is to just build one product, do a really nice job, keep it tight, and simple, and clear, and not have the complexity that comes with trying to service and satisfy so many different kinds of companies at different price levels with different price points and different expectations.

这让我们能够做的就是只构建一种产品，做得非常好，保持紧凑、简单、清晰，而不是试图为不同价格水平、不同价格点和不同期望的众多不同类型的公司提供服务和满足，从而带来复杂性。

That's why these companies tend to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

这就是为什么这些公司往往会变得越来越大。

Jason Fried: They also, frankly, build products just differently.

Jason Fried：坦率地说，他们构建产品的方式也不同。

We build products with two people at a time.

我们一次与两个人一起开发产品。

So every feature we work on in Basecamp, or HEY, or whatever we're building is two people, one programmer, one designer, and they have a maximum of six weeks to deliver the feature that they're working on.

因此，我们在 Basecamp 或 HEY 或我们正在构建的任何东西中开发的每个功能都是两个人，一个程序员，一个设计师，他们最多有六周的时间来交付他们正在开发的功能。

Most of them are usually a couple of weeks, but they have a maximum of six weeks.

大多数通常为几周，但最长为六周。

So we don't get stuck in these big huge projects, with meetings with 18 people, and slow decision-making, and indecision, and complexity, and all the things that come with trying to do too many things for too many people.

因此，我们不会陷入这些巨大的项目中，需要与 18 个人开会，决策缓慢，优柔寡断，复杂性，以及试图为太多人做太多事情所带来的所有问题。

Now, all that said, we could still make the mistake of hiring hundreds of people because we could afford to do so.

尽管如此，我们仍然可能会犯雇用数百人的错误，因为我们有能力这样做。

But to spend money because you have it on things you don't need is something that Silicon Valley's gotten quite good at, but we're quite bad at intentionally.

但是，因为你有钱而把钱花在你不需要的东西上，这是硅谷非常擅长的事情，但我们却很不擅长故意这样做。

I don't want to spend money on things we don't need.

我不想把钱花在我们不需要的东西上。

Jason Fried: So we think that constraints, simplicity, small teams actually are where it's at, and keep us honest, and allow us to do great work for our customer base that we know, small businesses, very tight companies like ours, and satisfy them versus trying to go after the big companies, and have to have salespeople, and have long sales cycles, and whatnot.

Jason Fried：所以我们认为限制、简单性、小团队实际上就是它的所在，让我们保持诚实，让我们能够为我们所知道的客户群、小企业、像我们这样非常紧张的公司做伟大的工作，并满足他们而不是试图追随大公司，并且必须有销售人员，并且有很长的销售周期等等。

Honestly, if you gave me 1,000 people, I wouldn't know what to do with them.

老实说，如果给我 1000 个人，我不知道该怎么办。

We would fall apart.

我们会崩溃的。

If you gave me 500 people, I wouldn't know what to do with them.

如果你给我 500 个人，我不知道该用他们做什么。

We would fall apart.

我们会崩溃的。

We would be a worse off company with 500 people.

如果我们的公司有 500 名员工，情况会更糟。

I'd be completely lost.

我会完全迷路。

So, that's the other thing.

所以，这是另一回事。

I don't even understand how they run, and the amount of layers they must need, and the amount of complexity organizationally that they must have to...

我什至不明白它们是如何运行的，以及它们必须需要的层数，以及它们必须必须具有的组织复杂性......

The latticework they have to build up to support all that weight, is just remarkable and it's foreign to us.

他们必须建造的网格结构来支撑所有的重量，这是非常了不起的，这对我们来说是陌生的。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I definitely want to talk about how you operate in your way of working, 'cause it's really interesting and there's a lot companies can take away.

我绝对想谈谈你的工作方式，因为这真的很有趣，而且有很多公司可以借鉴。

But, I want to follow on this thread of small teams.

但是，我想关注小团队的这条线索。

I have a few quotes that you've shared that I love.

我有一些你分享过的引言，我很喜欢。

Jason Fried: No, good.

杰森·弗里德：不，很好。

No, it's good.

不，这很好。

Hey, if I said it, I said it.

嘿，如果我说了，我就说了。

Let's go.

我们走吧。

Lenny: No, they're awesome.

莱尼：不，他们很棒。

They're great.

他们很棒。

Around this idea of staying small, one is, "Small is not just a stepping stone, small is a great destination itself.

围绕保持小规模这一理念，“小不仅仅是一块垫脚石，小本身就是一个伟大的目的地。

Also, if you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in bed with a mosquito."

另外，如果你认为自己太小而无法发挥作用，那么你就从来没有和蚊子上过床。”

Jason Fried: Now that's not my quote.

Jason Fried：这不是我的话。

That's someone else's, to be clear.

这是别人的，说清楚了。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Okay, you popularized it.

好吧，你普及了它。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Then there's one more.

然后还有一个。

"You don't need to outdo the competition, it's expensive and defensive.

“你不需要超越竞争对手，它既昂贵又具有防御性。

Underdo your competition.

削弱你的竞争。

We need more simplicity and clarity." I think a lot of these things point to, there's a few paths to success and goals for people.

我们需要更加简单和清晰。”我认为很多事情都表明，人们有几种成功和目标的途径。

One is build a massively scaled, everyone's using a product like Figma and Notion, and build a venture scale, $100 billion company.

一是建立一个大规模的、每个人都在使用 Figma 和 Notion 这样的产品，并建立一个风险规模达 1000 亿美元的公司。

Then there's this path which is, we're just going to make a bunch of profit we're going to make individually.

然后就是这条路，我们将单独赚取大量利润。

We're going to take home a bunch of cash.

我们要带一大笔现金回家。

We're not trying to have everyone in the world use it.

我们并不是想让世界上的每个人都使用它。

I know your focus is, you call it, the Fortune 5 million versus the Fortune 500.

我知道您的关注点是，您称之为“财富 500 万强”与“财富 500 强”。

So maybe just whatever you want to share about what success means to you, how you think about what success is for you, for the company your building.

因此，也许您想分享的就是成功对您意味着什么，您如何看待成功对您以及您所建立的公司来说意味着什么。

Jason Fried: For me, it's really about, would I want to do this again?

Jason Fried：对我来说，真正重要的是，我想再做一次吗？

If the answer is, "Yeah, that was enjoyable.

如果答案是：“是的，那很愉快。

I enjoyed that.

我很享受这样。

That was worthwhile.

那是值得的。

I'm glad I did that.

我很高兴我这么做了。

I'd like to do that again," then it was successful.

我还想再做一次”，然后就成功了。

Now you could carve out some extremes there.

现在你可以在那里做出一些极端的事情。

I'm sure someone who's addicted to drugs might go, "That felt great, I should do that again." So you got to be careful with that, in a sense.

我确信吸毒成瘾的人可能会说：“那感觉太棒了，我应该再做一次。”所以从某种意义上说，你必须小心这一点。

Obviously, I'm not talking about that.

显然，我不是在谈论这个。

Addiction's a whole different story.

成瘾是一个完全不同的故事。

But in general, with this stuff, "That was fun.

但总的来说，有了这些东西，“这很有趣。

Let's do that again.

让我们再做一次。

That worked.

那行得通。

Let's do that again." Or, "That didn't work.

让我们再做一次吧。”或者，“那没用。

I didn't like that.

我不喜欢那样。

That was a pain in the ass.

那真是一件令人痛苦的事。

That was too complicated.

那太复杂了。

That took too long.

那花了太长时间。

Let's not do that again." So it really is about, do you want to do that again?

我们不要再这样做了。”所以这实际上是关于，你想再做一次吗？

That's what success is to us at a root level.

这就是我们从根本上取得成功的意义。

Jason Fried: Now, on the business side of things, we have to be profitable.

Jason Fried：现在，在商业方面，我们必须盈利。

That doesn't mean that everything we do needs to be profitable.

这并不意味着我们所做的一切都需要盈利。

I am not driven by data, or I don't have different P&Ls for each product in a way where we're looking at them very carefully.

我不受数据驱动，或者我没有以我们非常仔细地查看每种产品的方式制定不同的损益表。

It's in total, collectively, are we making more money than we spend?

总的来说，我们赚的钱比花的钱多吗？

That's the only thing we ultimately look at, whether or not this product is more profitable than that product, and this is behind that, it's all the things we do.

这是我们最终看的唯一的事情，这个产品是否比那个产品更有利可图，而这背后，就是我们所做的所有事情。

It's all the things we do.

这就是我们所做的所有事情。

I don't even think you can actually draw lines back to everything and go, "That was worth it.

我什至不认为你真的可以把一切都划清界限，然后说：“这是值得的。

That wasn't worth it." What is the value of saying thank you to somebody?

那不值得。”对某人说谢谢有什么价值？

Would you want to A/B test that and, if it turned out that it was worse to say thank you to somebody, would you not do that?

你想对此进行 A/B 测试吗？如果结果表明向某人说谢谢更糟糕，你会不这样做吗？

No, you would do it because it's still the right thing to do.

不，你会这样做，因为这仍然是正确的事情。

Jason Fried: So a lot of our things are, what feels right?

Jason Fried：我们的很多东西都是这样，什么感觉对呢？

What seems like the decent thing to do?

做什么看起来像是体面的事情？

What things do we enjoy making?

我们喜欢制作什么东西？

As long as we can, at the end of the year, look back and go, "Well, collectively, more worked then didn't work," then we're okay.

只要我们能够在年底回顾过去并说：“嗯，总的来说，做了更多的工作，然后没有做任何工作，”那么我们就可以了。

That's how we look at it.

我们就是这样看的。

We don't have financial goals.

我们没有财务目标。

We don't have OKRs or KPIs.

我们没有 OKR 或 KPI。

I don't have revenue targets.

我没有收入目标。

I don't have growth targets, in terms of the number of customers we need to pick up this year versus last year.

就今年与去年相比我们需要吸引的客户数量而言，我没有设定增长目标。

I don't look at any of those things.

我不看这些东西。

It's just, at the end, "Did we make more than we spend?

只是，最后，“我们赚的比花的多吗？

We did.

我们做到了。

Then the things we did this year were worth it." That's how it goes.

那么我们今年所做的事情都是值得的。”事情就是这样。

Lenny: You also have no investors.

莱尼：你也没有投资者。

You have no board.

你没有板子。

You have no plans to go public.

您没有上市计划。

You have no plans to sell the business.

您没有出售该业务的计划。

Lenny: There's this book, I don't know if you've read this book called, Finite and Infinite Games.

莱尼：有一本书，我不知道你是否读过这本书，叫《有限与无限游戏》。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I think you would love it.

我想你会喜欢的。

The whole premise of this book, it's like a terse, tricky, philosophical book, but it's very short.

这本书的整个前提，就像一本简洁、棘手的哲学书，但它很短。

It espouses, you want to be playing infinite games to be happy in life, games that never end versus games like, I'm going to build a business and sell it.

它主张，你想要玩无限的游戏来快乐地生活，那些永远不会结束的游戏，而不是像“我要建立一家企业并将其出售”这样的游戏。

Or, I'm going to go public, that's my goal.

或者，我要上市，这是我的目标。

Or, I want to achieve this promotion.

或者说，我想实现这个晋升。

You get most joy out of things that never end, like building great relationships, building a company you want to keep working at forever.

你从永无止境的事情中获得最大的快乐，比如建立良好的关系，建立一家你想永远工作的公司。

Jason Fried: I like that.

杰森·弗里德：我喜欢这样。

What's interesting is, I've always thought of my career this way.

有趣的是，我一直这样思考我的职业生涯。

When I got my first job, I was 13.

当我找到第一份工作时，我才 13 岁。

I worked in a grocery store for a bit, and then I worked in a shoe store.

我在一家杂货店工作过一段时间，然后在一家鞋店工作。

After that, maybe when I was 15, I got a resellers license, which was this thing...

之后，也许当我 15 岁的时候，我获得了经销商许可证，就是这个东西......

This is way back in the day.

这是很久以前的事了。

I think they still exists.

我认为它们仍然存在。

A company called Ingram Micro D, which had this huge thick catalog of electronics equipment.

一家名为 Ingram Micro D 的公司拥有如此庞大、厚厚的电子设备目录。

If you had a resellers license, you could buy these things at wholesale prices, then I could sell them to my friends for retail, which is almost 2x wholesale.

如果你有经销商许可证，你可以以批发价购买这些东西，然后我可以将它们零售给我的朋友，这几乎是批发价的两倍。

Even though I'm not selling electronics equipment today, I'm selling software instead, I feel like I have the exact same job as I did when I was 15, that this is a long continuum of finding stuff that I like.

尽管我今天不卖电子设备，而是卖软件，我觉得我的工作和我 15 岁时的工作一模一样，这是一个寻找我喜欢的东西的漫长过程。

Jason Fried: In this case today, it's building things that I like, and selling them to like-minded people who also would find them useful or those things too.

Jason Fried：在今天的情况下，它正在构建我喜欢的东西，并将它们出售给志同道合的人，他们也会发现它们有用或这些东西。

So whether or not it's software, or electronics, or stereo equipment, or whatever the heck it is, or music organizing databases, it's all the same to me, and I just want to keep doing it.

因此，无论是软件、电子产品、立体声设备，还是不管它是什么，还是音乐组织数据库，对我来说都是一样的，我只是想继续做下去。

This is my day job.

这是我的日常工作。

The other thing that's interesting about entrepreneurship is, sometimes there's a sense of, you can get a job or you can be an entrepreneur.

创业的另一件有趣的事情是，有时会有一种感觉，你可以找到一份工作，或者你可以成为一名企业家。

Well, an entrepreneur is a job.

嗯，企业家就是一份工作。

This is my job, so I want to create the company that I want to work at, and I want to keep doing this job for as long as I can.

这是我的工作，所以我想创建一家我想工作的公司，并且我想尽可能长时间地继续做这份工作。

As long as I'm useful, I'm good at it, I enjoy it, I want to keep doing that.

只要我有用，我擅长，我喜欢，我就想继续这样做。

Jason Fried: So to get in bed with an investment that would say, "In five years you have to stop doing what you're doing, you're going to get a big paycheck maybe, but you got to stop doing what you're doing because we're going to sell this business, and you're going to have to go work for this other company for two years and do their thing.

杰森·弗里德：因此，要进行一项投资，“五年后，你必须停止做你正在做的事情，也许你会得到一份高薪，但你必须停止做你正在做的事情，因为我们要卖掉这家公司，你将不得不为另一家公司工作两年，做他们的事情。

Then eventually, after that's over, you'll leave and you'll go start another thing," that just has no appeal to me at all.

然后最终，结束后，你会离开，开始另一件事，”这对我来说根本没有吸引力。

I'd rather just keep doing the thing that I'm enjoying doing, as long as I can continue to make it work.

我宁愿继续做我喜欢做的事情，只要我能继续让它发挥作用。

Jason Fried: What's cool about having a company like ours, which is an independent business, we don't have to ask anyone for permission.

Jason Fried：拥有像我们这样的公司是一件很酷的事情，它是一家独立的企业，我们不需要征求任何人的许可。

No one can tell us no. So we can turn this into anything we want.

没有人可以告诉我们不。所以我们可以把它变成我们想要的任何东西。

It's this vehicle, more so than it is a software business.

与其说它是一个软件业务，不如说它是一种交通工具。

It happens to be, of course, what it is, but it could be something else as well.

当然，它碰巧就是这样，但也可能是别的东西。

There's no limits to what it could be, and that's a fun way to go through life too, in this all-terrain vehicle which can anywhere, on-road, off-road, whatever, and you can get anywhere you need to go.

它的可能性没有限制，这也是一种有趣的生活方式，驾驶这款全地形车，可以在任何地方，公路上、越野上，无论什么地方，你都可以到达任何你需要去的地方。

That's what's really quite fun about the kind of business we have.

这就是我们的业务真正有趣的地方。

Lenny: You have this term you hold, instead of a startup it's a stay up.

莱尼：你用这个词来形容，与其说是初创公司，不如说是“熬夜”。

Jason Fried: Yes.

杰森·弗里德：是的。

I'm so sick of the startups.

我厌倦了初创公司。

It's cool to start a business, obviously, but I'm sick of that term dominating.

显然，创业很酷，但我厌倦了这个词的主导地位。

Because, frankly, starting a business is actually way easier than staying in business.

因为，坦率地说，创业实际上比维持生意容易得多。

Now, none of it's easy, so I want to be supportive of people who are starting businesses.

现在，这一切都不容易，所以我想支持那些正在创业的人。

But they should know that that's actually not the hard part.

但他们应该知道这实际上并不是困难的部分。

Literally tomorrow, I can start a new business.

从字面上看，明天我就可以开始一项新业务了。

You can come up with a name, and you can make a thing, and you can put in the app store, and you can sell it for two bucks, and you've got a business going.

你可以想出一个名字，你可以做一个东西，你可以把它放在应用程序商店里，你可以把它卖两美元，然后你就开始做生意了。

But, are you going to be there in two years?

但是，两年后你会去那里吗？

Are you going to be there in five years when competition rushes in?

五年后，当竞争激烈时，你会在那里吗？

When you have employees, are you going to be there?

当你有员工的时候，你会去那里吗？

Staying is harder than starting.

坚持比开始更难。

So I'm here to celebrate stay ups.

所以我来这里是为了庆祝熬夜。

Plenty of other people are here to celebrate startups.

还有很多人来这里庆祝初创企业。

Lenny: I feel the same way.

莱尼：我也有同样的感觉。

I always say this about newsletters, and it's also true for podcasts.

关于时事通讯，我总是这样说，对于播客也是如此。

Easy to start a newsletter, hard to keep it going.

开始一篇新闻通讯很容易，坚持下去很难。

Jason Fried: Totally.

杰森·弗里德：完全可以。

I've seen your newsletter fly.

我看到你的时事通讯飞了。

We have a newsletter and it's been pretty flat.

我们有一份时事通讯，但内容相当平淡。

I'm like, "How does he do it?" It's hard.

我想，“他是怎么做到的？”这很难。

It's really hard.

真的很难。

It's hard to build a podcast audience.

建立播客受众很困难。

It's hard to build a newsletter audience.

建立时事通讯受众很困难。

So yeah, starting something is really easy, but then most people end up in this plateau area, 'cause they get some initial growth, the word gets out, and they end up with 6,000 somethings, and then you're stuck there.

所以，是的，开始做某件事真的很容易，但大多数人最终都会陷入这个高原区域，因为他们得到了一些初步的成长，消息传开，他们最终得到了 6,000 件事，然后你就被困在那里了。

Then it's like, "Well, do you want to keep doing this?

然后就像是，“好吧，你想继续这样做吗？

Or, are you just high on the growth?

或者，您只是在高速增长吗？

Or, do you actually like the thing?"

或者说，你真的喜欢这个东西吗？”

Jason Fried: If you want to do the thing for a long period of time, you've got to like the thing because you're going to have to endure these moments of plateaus, which is what staying up is all about.

杰森·弗里德：如果你想长期做一件事，你就必须喜欢这件事，因为你必须忍受这些停滞期，这就是熬夜的意义所在。

Sometimes those go down.

有时这些会下降。

We've had wavy years, always been profitable, but our profit's different every year.

我们经历了波涛汹涌的岁月，一直盈利，但每年的利润都不同。

Sometimes it's more, and sometimes it's less.

有时多，有时少。

Sometimes our margin is more, sometimes it's less.

有时我们的利润较多，有时则较少。

If you compare yourself to the previous year, you can get demoralized to some degree.

如果你将自己与前一年进行比较，你可能会在某种程度上感到士气低落。

But I just, "What do we want to keep doing?," and then we're in it to stay in it.

但我只是问，“我们想继续做什么？”然后我们就留在其中。

Lenny: Speaking of enduring, you've been at this for almost 25 years now, I believe?

Lenny：说到持久，我相信您已经从事此行近 25 年了？

Lenny: Have there been periods where...

莱尼：有没有一段时期...

I like that sigh that you just had there.

我喜欢你刚才的叹息。

Lenny: So maybe along that path, one, is there a point at which maybe you started going off track and you realized, "This is not what I want to be doing.

莱尼：所以，也许沿着这条路，有一个点，也许你开始偏离轨道，然后你意识到，“这不是我想做的事。

Why did I do this to myself?" Then two is just, what have you learned being at this for this long?

我为什么要这样对自己？”那么第二个问题就是，你在这个行业呆了这么久，学到了什么？

Jason Fried: I would say, over the past few years, I've had more thoughts of, "How long should I do this for?" I go back and forth.

Jason Fried：我想说，在过去的几年里，我有更多的想法，“我应该这样做多久？”我来来回回。

I can tell you, what's interesting is, right now, I'm probably more excited than I've been in many years.

我可以告诉你，有趣的是，现在我可能比多年来更兴奋。

But, a year ago I was not so excited.

但是，一年前我还没有那么兴奋。

I think that after you've been doing this for a while, you do tend to just compare, what was it like in the early days?

我觉得当你做了一段时间之后，你确实会比较，早期是什么样的？

What's it like now?

现在怎么样了？

All the new things that are harder weren't harder before, and now they're hard today.

所有更难的新事物以前并不难，现在它们今天更难了。

Do I like doing this kind of hard work, or would I rather do...?

我喜欢做这种艰苦的工作，还是宁愿做……？

You just amass this history, and so you tend to just call back to it, and look back to it.

你只是积累了这段历史，所以你倾向于回顾它，回顾它。

So you opine for the early days, or you reminisce, I should say.

所以我应该说，你是对早期的看法，或者是回忆。

Jason Fried: "Yeah, it was so much easier when we were 20 people." "Yeah, but we weren't doing this, and times were different, and you can't go back anyway." But, it's interesting.

Jason Fried：“是的，当我们只有 20 个人时，事情就容易多了。” “是啊，但我们没有这么做，而且时代不同了，反正你也回不去了。”但是，这很有趣。

Next year I'll be 50.

明年我就50岁了。

We'll be doing this 25 years.

我们将这样做 25 年。

I'll have been running this company for 25 years.

我将经营这家公司 25 年。

Part of me thinks, "Is that enough?

我的一部分在想：“这就够了吗？

Maybe that's enough." But right now, I'm really excited about what we're doing.

也许这就足够了。”但现在，我对我们正在做的事情感到非常兴奋。

We're doing some really great product work, probably the best we've done in many, many years.

我们正在做一些非常出色的产品工作，可能是我们多年来做得最好的。

Launching this new thing called ONCE, which hopefully we're going to build three or so products next year under that category.

推出名为 ONCE 的新产品，希望明年我们能在该类别下推出三款左右的产品。

I would like to write another book.

我想再写一本书。

We finally have another idea for another book.

我们终于对另一本书有了另一个想法。

Jason Fried: So there's just, right now, this outpouring of energy.

杰森·弗里德：所以，现在，能量正在涌出。

I'm trying to be very conscious of my energy interest.

我努力非常清楚自己对能源的兴趣。

Right now, I'm getting energy from the business.

现在，我正在从事业中获得能量。

There are times in the past where the business sapped energy for me.

过去有时生意会耗尽我的精力。

If it SAPs too much, at some point, you start to think, "Is it worth it?

如果它的 SAP 太多，在某个时候，你会开始思考，“值得吗？

Do I want to keep doing this?" Right now, I'm fueled again by it.

我想继续这样做吗？”现在，我又被它激励了。

But, I don't know what it'll be like in a year from now.

但是，我不知道一年后会是什么样子。

I really don't know.

我真的不知道。

I think I'm more conscious of that than I've ever been given how long I've been doing this.

我想我比我从事这项工作多久了更清楚地意识到这一点。

Jason Fried: Also, I always have this strange fantasy, I'm always curious, "What would someone else do with this place?

Jason Fried：另外，我总是有一种奇怪的幻想，我总是很好奇，“其他人会用这个地方做什么？

What if someone else could just step in tomorrow?

如果明天其他人可以介入怎么办？

How would they run it?

他们将如何运行它？

No one's ever had a chance to run it but me.

除了我之外，没有人有机会运行它。

What would they do differently?" I'd have to be completely detached from it to let them really run with it.

他们会采取什么不同的做法？”我必须完全脱离它才能让他们真正运行它。

But, what would they do?

但是，他们会做什么呢？

I always have this curious about that, I would say.

我想说，我一直对此感到好奇。

Not curious enough to find out, but still curious.

没有好奇到想知道，但仍然好奇。

It's always in the back of my head.

它总是在我的脑后。

Jason Fried: I think they'd probably be focused on growth.

Jason Fried：我认为他们可能会专注于增长。

I think there's opportunities that we miss all the time.

我认为我们一直在错过一些机会。

I think that we are stuck in a certain...

我认为我们陷入了某种困境......

Stuck sounds like a negative term, but I don't mean it that way.

“卡住”听起来像是一个贬义词，但我并不是这个意思。

But, we're stuck in a certain groove.

但是，我们陷入了某种困境。

We do things the way we do things.

我们以我们做事的方式做事。

We change the way we do things here and there, but we're not really jumping into a new groove.

我们到处改变我们做事的方式，但我们并没有真正进入新的状态。

I think someone would jump into a new groove and run the company differently, maybe make a lot more products than we're making today.

我认为有人会跳入新的模式并以不同的方式经营公司，也许会生产比我们今天生产的更多的产品。

Maybe resurrect a couple of things that we did in the past.

也许会复活我们过去做过的一些事情。

Probably spend a lot on advertising, a lot of marketing, probably take our margin way down and try to focus on growth.

可能会在广告、营销上花费大量资金，可能会降低我们的利润并尝试专注于增长。

What if we spent 70% of our margin on growth?

如果我们将 70% 的利润用于增长怎么办？

What would that look like?

那会是什么样子？

I just feel like that's what most people would probably come in with a business like ours and do.

我只是觉得这就是大多数人进入像我们这样的企业时可能会做的事情。

They go, "Oh my god, there's so many missed opportunities here.

他们会说：“天啊，这里错失了太多机会。

Look at this, and look at this, and look at this.

看看这个，看看这个，看看这个。

You've got this brand, and people know about you, and you've got 100,000 paying customers.

你拥有了这个品牌，人们都知道你，并且你拥有 100,000 名付费客户。

Think about all the things you could do." I'm not really thinking about all the things we could do.

想想你能做的所有事情。”我并没有真正考虑我们可以做的所有事情。

I'm thinking about what we're doing.

我在想我们在做什么。

So I think someone else would come in and think about the things we could do.

所以我认为其他人会进来思考我们可以做的事情。

Jason Fried: I'm thinking about the things we are doing, with a little bit of a look ahead to things we could also do, but they're still pretty close to what we're doing today.

Jason Fried：我正在考虑我们正在做的事情，并对我们也可以做的事情进行一些展望，但它们仍然非常接近我们今天正在做的事情。

So, that's what I think would happen.

所以，这就是我认为会发生的事情。

It'd be interesting.

这会很有趣。

It'd be neat to live in a reality where there could be a second reality running right alongside you, truly.

生活在一个可能有第二个现实与你并肩而行的现实中真是太好了。

Not an A/B test, which is hard to do.

不是 A/B 测试，这很难做到。

You can't really A/B test an entire company.

您无法真正对整个公司进行 A/B 测试。

I'd seek to A/B test small things.

我会寻求对小事情进行 A/B 测试。

But, it'd be cool if that was something that could happen.

但是，如果这能发生的话那就太酷了。

Maybe there's some simulation down the road.

也许未来会有一些模拟。

Lenny: Maybe we're in the simulation variant where you're still running it.

莱尼：也许我们处于模拟变体中，你仍在运行它。

Lenny: And there's another...

莱尼：还有一个……

This a cool exercise, actually, just to think about it.

事实上，这是一个很酷的练习，只要想想就知道。

If I were to bring in any leader, what would they do?

如果我引入任何领导者，他们会做什么？

Just as a thought exercise.

只是作为一个思维练习。

Jason Fried: This is a weird way to think about it, but I almost would be embarrassed by what someone would come in and look at, and go, "Oh my God, you guys are missing so many opportunities here." I'd be like, "Yeah, I know.

杰森·弗里德（Jason Fried）：这是一种奇怪的思考方式，但我几乎会因为有人进来看到什么而感到尴尬，然后说：“天哪，你们在这里错过了这么多机会。”我会说：“是的，我知道。

I know we are, but I'm totally fine with it." But, there'd be this moment of judgment and reckoning with, "Do you realize how much you're leaving on the table?" You could have five different pricing tiers, and make a lot more money, and you can maximize this and maximize that, and squeeze this and squeeze that, and address this market, and you could have special versions of Basecamp.

我知道我们是这样，但我完全同意。”但是，会有这样一个判断和算计的时刻，“你意识到你在桌子上留下了多少东西吗？”你可以有五个不同的定价层，赚更多的钱，你可以最大化这个和最大化那个，挤压这个和挤压那个，并解决这个市场，你可以拥有 Basecamp 的特殊版本。

Wow, churches are using Basecamp?

哇，教堂正在使用 Basecamp？

We could do a special version for churches, and for synagogues, and religious institutions, or education or nonprofits.

我们可以为教堂、犹太教堂、宗教机构、教育或非营利组织制作一个特殊版本。

Think of all the slight different things you could do with these different..."

想想你可以用这些不同的东西做所有细微的不同的事情……”

Jason Fried: I'm certain that all those opportunities exist on the table.

Jason Fried：我确信所有这些机会都存在。

They don't interest me, personally, in terms of making multiple products.

就我个人而言，他们对制造多种产品不感兴趣。

But I could see someone else going, "There's a huge opportunity here.

但我可以看到其他人会说：“这里有一个巨大的机会。

We got to pursue this." I'd be really proud if someone did that, and made the business bigger and better.

我们必须追求这个目标。”如果有人这样做，并使业务变得更大更好，我会感到非常自豪。

I could never have done that.

我永远不可能那样做。

I'm glad someone else did that.

我很高兴有人这么做了。

But right now, we're running it our way.

但现在，我们正在按照自己的方式运行。

Lenny: Coming back to this as a path people can take with their business versus a traditional venture scale business, this path is essentially build something, sell it, make money, live like a chill life.

莱尼：回到这一点，与传统的风险规模企业相比，人们可以采取的业务路径是，这条路径本质上是建造一些东西，出售它，赚钱，过着平静的生活。

Not super stressed, growth-focused obsessed, need to build a billion-dollar company.

压力不是很大，专注于增长，需要建立一家价值十亿美元的公司。

Do you think this path is something everyone should do?

你认为这条路是每个人都应该走的吗？

Is it a specific type of personality, a specific type of product?

它是一种特定类型的个性、一种特定类型的产品吗？

Do you recommend people that sometimes do go this big shot venture scale route?

您是否会推荐有时确实走这条大型风险投资路线的人？

Jason Fried: I'm glad there are some people who do that.

Jason Fried：我很高兴有人这么做。

I'm glad that there's some businesses that-

我很高兴有一些企业-

Jason Fried: People who do that.

杰森·弗里德：这样做的人。

I'm glad that there's some businesses that wouldn't have worked out had they not taken a bunch of funding and went big, clearly.

我很高兴有些企业如果没有获得大量资金并做大，显然就不会成功。

And there's many impressive businesses that do that.

有许多令人印象深刻的企业正在这样做。

But let's face it, those are extreme outliers.

但让我们面对现实吧，这些都是极端的异常值。

The majority of companies on this planet run like ours.

这个星球上的大多数公司都像我们一样运作。

They're bootstrapped, they don't have any money.

他们自力更生，没有钱。

No one's willing to give them a penny and they open up a shop somewhere, they do something, they put their shingle out and they launch a website or whatever and they try to make it work.

没有人愿意给他们一分钱，他们在某个地方开了一家商店，他们做了一些事情，他们把他们的招牌拿出来，他们推出了一个网站或其他什么，他们试图让它发挥作用。

So most people are doing it our way, even though in our industry it seems like we're the outliers, but we're not.

所以大多数人都按照我们的方式做事，尽管在我们的行业中，我们似乎是局外人，但我们不是。

We're actually incredibly boring and mainstream, really.

我们实际上非常无聊和主流，真的。

If you were to pick any random business owner on the street, they'd run their business like us.

如果你在街上随机挑选任何一个企业主，他们会像我们一样经营自己的生意。

I got to make more money than I spend otherwise I'm out.

我必须赚比我花的钱更多的钱，否则我就出局了。

I don't have this big cushion of millions sitting in the bank that I can just spend on things.

我在银行里没有数百万美元的大笔资金可以用来买东西。

Jason Fried: So they're pretty, they keep an eye on costs.

Jason Fried：所以他们很漂亮，他们关注成本。

They think about this carefully.

他们仔细地思考这个问题。

But yeah, I'm glad there's people who are going for the moonshot and doing it their way and doing it a different way.

但是，是的，我很高兴有人愿意尝试登月计划，并以自己的方式和不同的方式去做。

And the world moves forward sometimes because of those businesses and it's great.

有时，世界会因为这些企业而进步，这很棒。

It's great and I admire them.

这太棒了，我很佩服他们。

It's just that it's not the path I would take and I think because that's not who I am, and I think this is the important point that I want to get across, is I'm not really, hopefully I don't come off as encouraging everyone to be like me.

只是这不是我会走的路，我想因为那不是我，我认为这是我想要表达的重要一点，我不是真的，希望我不会表现得鼓励每个人都像我一样。

I'm not saying that at all.

我根本不是这么说的。

What I'm saying is this is a way to be.

我想说的是，这是一种方式。

It's an alternative to what you're often hearing in our industry, which is like go big or go home, raise a bunch of money and get huge and unicorn status and the whole thing.

这是您在我们行业中经常听到的另一种选择，就像要么做大，要么回家，筹集一大笔资金并获得巨大的独角兽地位以及整个事情。

Jason Fried: That's a way.

杰森·弗里德：这是一种方式。

Just know though that basically almost nobody makes it that way.

但要知道，基本上几乎没有人能做到这一点。

Really, almost nobody really makes it that way.

确实，几乎没有人真正做到这一点。

And there's a lot more room to make it and to build a successful business, if you throw out that outlier and look at all the other places you can land as a business.

如果你抛开那个异常值，看看所有其他你可以作为一家企业登陆的地方，那么还有更大的空间来实现这一目标并建立一个成功的企业。

So my interest is optionality.

所以我的兴趣是选择性。

If I could land in 135 different positions and have a sustainable business, that's great.

如果我能够担任 135 个不同的职位并拥有可持续的业务，那就太好了。

Versus saying there's only one way I'm going to be successful or happy.

而不是说我成功或快乐只有一种方法。

Those odds aren't really in anyone's favor.

这些可能性并不真正对任何人有利。

Even though of course some people win the lottery.

当然，尽管有些人中了彩票。

And I'm not saying it's luck.

我并不是说这是运气。

There is luck, a lot of luck, including we're lucky that we've made it.

有运气，很多运气，包括我们很幸运我们成功了。

So there is a degree of that when I say lottery.

所以当我说彩票时，有一定程度的影响。

But really the point is that there's only a few slots for a few companies like that at any one time.

但真正的问题是，在任何时候，只有少数几家这样的公司有几个名额。

Meanwhile, there are hundreds or thousands of slots for other kinds of companies to make it if they don't go for the moon.

与此同时，如果其他类型的公司不登月的话，还有成百上千的机会可以实现。

Lenny: Just to close this thought around whether, if you have an idea going the venture route makes sense.

莱尼：只是为了结束这个想法，如果你有一个想法，走风险路线是否有意义。

What do venture scale companies need to achieve?

风险投资规模公司需要实现什么目标？

What investors look for that to even work out?

哪些投资者希望这种做法能够奏效？

To your point, it almost never works out.

就你而言，它几乎永远不会成功。

What is it you have to do for it to feel like, okay, this is a venture scale idea versus this is an awesome idea.

你必须做什么才能让人感觉，好吧，这是一个风险规模的想法，而不是一个很棒的想法。

We could just make money every year, every month from it and not raise money and life will be great.

我们可以每年、每月从中赚钱，而不用筹集资金，生活就会很美好。

Jason Fried: I'm probably the wrong person to ask, but I would say there are versions of our...

Jason Fried：我可能是问错了人，但我想说我们的……有多个版本。

Let's just take Monday for example.

我们以星期一为例。

Basecamp and Monday are quite a bit different, but they live in the same world.

Basecamp 和 Monday 有很大不同，但它们生活在同一个世界。

We could have flipped, someone could have had the Monday approach and sold Basecamp that way, and Basecamp could have gone big in that way and Monday could have stayed small in our way.

我们本来可以翻转，有人可以采用周一的方式并以这种方式出售 Basecamp，Basecamp 可以用这种方式做大，而周一可以用我们的方式保持小规模。

Again, I'd rather be my business than their business.

再说一遍，我宁愿做我自己的事，也不愿做他们的事。

I would not trade Basecamp for Monday's business any day of the week because I love what we're doing.

我不会用 Basecamp 来换取一周中任何一天周一的业务，因为我喜欢我们正在做的事情。

We're profitable, we're happy.

我们盈利了，我们很高兴。

We don't have to deal with the things they have to deal with.

我们不必处理他们必须处理的事情。

So I wouldn't trade businesses or places with anybody.

所以我不会与任何人交换生意或地点。

But you could imagine it could have been swapped.

但你可以想象它可以被交换。

So it's not that Basecamp couldn't be this big venture scale, whatever you want to call it, although look, hey, we have the same number of customers roughly than they do.

所以，无论你想怎么称呼它，Basecamp 并不是不能达到这么大的规模，尽管看，嘿，我们的客户数量与他们大致相同。

Jason Fried: Are we?

杰森·弗里德：我们是吗？

I guess we are venture scale in that respect.

我想我们在这方面的风险规模是很大的。

But again, point is is that depending on how you approach it, you can take anything in any different direction.

但同样重要的是，根据你的处理方式，你可以将任何事情朝不同的方向发展。

So it's more of a mindset, what are you after?

所以这更多的是一种心态，你追求什么？

We're not after that and they are.

我们不追求那个，但他们追求。

So that's what they do.

这就是他们所做的。

And we do it a different way.

我们以不同的方式来做。

So I don't necessarily think...

所以我不一定认为...

There's things like Airbnb is a great example that that has to have a certain degree of scale to really be something that no matter where you go in the world, you're like, I can get an Airbnb there.

像 Airbnb 这样的公司就是一个很好的例子，它必须具有一定的规模，才能真正成为无论你走到世界的哪个地方，你都会想，我可以在那里找到一个 Airbnb。

And that's probably going to take money to get there.

而这可能需要钱才能实现。

Same thing with Uber.

优步也是如此。

Uber's another example, and these are easy to pick, but they're great examples really.

Uber 是另一个例子，这些很容易挑选，但它们确实是很好的例子。

When Uber was getting started and they had to proliferate all over the country to begin with and all over the world.

当 Uber 刚刚起步时，他们必须首先在全国范围内以及全世界范围内进行扩张。

Jason Fried: So it was this reliable thing you could think of just you would think of a cab.

杰森·弗里德（Jason Fried）：所以这是一种你能想到的可靠的东西，就像你会想到出租车一样。

If I went to New York or Chicago, I knew there'd be a cab.

如果我去纽约或芝加哥，我知道会有出租车。

Was there going to be an Uber?

会有 Uber 吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

Well, you have to know that there's going to be one to begin to trust us.

好吧，你必须知道会有人开始信任我们。

So in order to do that, you have to expand rapidly.

因此，为了做到这一点，您必须快速扩张。

So there's that kid of, those kind of businesses exist and those are great examples of venture-backed companies that kind of need that massive initial push to be available in all the different places because they're actual physical products.

因此，存在这样的企业，这些都是风险投资支持的公司的很好的例子，这些公司需要大规模的初始推动才能在所有不同的地方提供，因为它们是实际的实体产品。

Airbnb's a physical product, Uber's a physical product, Basecamp, Monday, Asana, they're available everywhere instantly anyway.

Airbnb 是实体产品，Uber 是实体产品，Basecamp、Monday、Asana，无论如何，它们随时随地都可以使用。

I don't know what you need the money for other than marketing.

我不知道你除了营销之外还需要这些钱做什么？

And it's interesting because marketing's losing them a lot of money.

这很有趣，因为营销让他们损失了很多钱。

So it's an interesting thing.

所以这是一件有趣的事情。

But anyway, you can talk to them about that.

但无论如何，你可以和他们谈谈这件事。

Lenny: I want to start chatting about your ways of working, how you operate at 37signals.

Lenny：我想开始谈谈您的工作方式以及您在 37signals 的运营方式。

There's a lot of really unique approaches.

有很多非常独特的方法。

One is you mentioned that every project is, I didn't know this.

一是你提到每个项目都是，我不知道这一点。

It's two people, a designer and engineer, and then two to six weeks of work.

这是两个人，一个设计师和工程师，然后是两到六周的工作。

Can you just expand on how you actually do that, how broad development works there?

您能否详细介绍一下您实际上是如何做到这一点的，以及那里的广泛开发工作？

Jason Fried: Yeah, so we have framework development framework we invented called Shape Up, and if you go to basecamp.com/shapeup, you can read the book, it's free.

Jason Fried：是的，我们发明了名为 Shape Up 的框架开发框架，如果你访问 basecamp.com/shapeup，你可以阅读这本书，它是免费的。

You can also get a print version if you want.

如果需要，您还可以获得印刷版。

Shape Up is our methodology for actually building products.

Shape Up 是我们实际构建产品的方法论。

And part of this is this idea at the root of it is this idea of the six-week cycle.

部分原因是这个想法的根源是六周周期的想法。

That whatever we choose to do can take no longer than six weeks.

无论我们选择做什么，都不会超过六周。

So this is not an estimate of time, it's an appetite, which is a radically different approach.

所以这不是对时间的估计，而是一种欲望，这是一种完全不同的方法。

It doesn't sound like that much of a different word, but it really is.

这听起来不像是一个不同的词，但确实如此。

An estimate is like how long do we think it's going to take?

估计就像我们认为需要多长时间？

And however long it takes is however long it takes.

无论需要多长时间，无论需要多长时间。

And most human beings are terrible estimators.

大多数人都是糟糕的估计者。

We all are pretty much terrible estimators.

我们都是非常糟糕的估计者。

So that's why things keep going and going and going and going.

这就是为什么事情会一直持续下去。

Jason Fried: We instead have appetites.

杰森·弗里德：相反，我们有胃口。

And our appetite for any individual feature is no more than six weeks.

我们对任何单个功能的兴趣不超过六周。

Essentially that's our budget we're willing to spend.

本质上，这就是我们愿意花费的预算。

I'm only willing to spend six weeks in any feature.

我只愿意在任何功能上花费六周的时间。

So we have to figure out the simplest, most effective version of that to get that done within six weeks and get it done by two people.

因此，我们必须找出最简单、最有效的版本，以便在六周内完成并由两个人完成。

Now, not everything gets the full six weeks.

现在，并不是所有事情都能得到完整的六周时间。

Some things were like, we have a one week appetite for this.

有些事情就像，我们对此有一周的胃口。

This is not that big of a deal.

这没什么大不了的。

If we have it, great.

如果我们拥有它，那就太好了。

If we don't have it, that's fine.

如果我们没有它，那也没关系。

We're willing to spend a week on it.

我们愿意花一周的时间。

Not that it could take a week, because it could also take 12 weeks if we give it 12 and it could take 24, if we give it 24.

并不是说这可能需要一周，因为如果我们给它 12，它也可能需要 12 周，如果我们给它 24，它可能需要 24 周。

Work expands to fill the time available.

工作会扩展以填补可用的时间。

So for us it's about appetite.

所以对我们来说这关乎食欲。

Jason Fried: So the idea of appetites, maxing things out at six weeks, two people max, and then there's a lot of other details, and I could go on for an hour about Shape Up, people can read about it.

杰森·弗里德（Jason Fried）：胃口的想法，六周内最大程度地进行，最多两个人，然后还有很多其他细节，我可以用一个小时来介绍 Shape Up，人们可以阅读。

But it's those fundamental principles, appetites, six week max, small teams and this idea of shaping the work ahead of time, then giving the team a lot of latitude to figure out how to get that thing done.

但这是那些基本原则、兴趣、最多六周、小团队以及提前制定工作的想法，然后给团队很大的自由度来弄清楚如何完成这项工作。

We don't have a spec, we don't create to-dos or tasks or tickets for people.

我们没有规范，我们不为人们创建待办事项、任务或票证。

They create the work that needs to get done to fulfill the idea that we've written up and designed essentially, and they figure out how to do it.

他们创建了需要完成的工作来实现我们已经编写和设计的想法，并且他们弄清楚如何去做。

Then we trade.

然后我们进行交易。

So they might get into something that we've said, we have about six weeks.

所以他们可能会陷入我们所说的事情，我们有大约六周的时间。

Well, we're only give it six weeks and two weeks in they go, we actually stumbled into something we didn't realize.

好吧，我们只给了他们六周的时间，两周后，我们实际上偶然发现了一些我们没有意识到的事情。

Jason Fried: This is probably not going to be able to be done the way we thought.

Jason Fried：这可能不会按照我们想象的方式完成。

So can we do it this way?

那么我们可以这样做吗？

And then we have a discussion and there's a conversation.

然后我们进行讨论并进行对话。

There's a lot of molding and changing that happens along that period of time.

在那段时间里发生了很多塑造和变化。

We call it trading concessions.

我们称之为贸易优惠。

There's all the trade-offs we're always thinking about.

我们一直在考虑所有的权衡。

So all these things that come to bear.

所以所有这些事情都会发生。

And then people often ask, well, what if you don't get it done in the six weeks you gave it?

然后人们经常会问，如果你在六周内没有完成任务怎么办？

Well, so it depends.

嗯，这要看情况。

So in most cases it should die, meaning it just doesn't happen.

所以在大多数情况下它应该消亡，这意味着它不会发生。

Because if we say we're going to give it six weeks and we give it seven or eight or nine or 10, then we're not really giving it six weeks, we're giving it 10, then we don't really have a system.

因为如果我们说我们要给它六周，然后我们给它七周、八周、九周或十周，那么我们并不是真正给它六周，而是给它十周，那么我们就没有真正的系统。

Jason Fried: There are times though, when there's a couple days left when we're on what we're calling the downslope.

贾森·弗里德（Jason Fried）：不过，有时候，还剩下几天时间，我们就处于所谓的下坡路。

So we have these things in Basecamp called hill charts.

所以我们在 Basecamp 中有这些东西，称为山图。

And things that are on, that's actually work...

那些正在发生的事情，实际上是有效的......

A project's more like a hill.

项目更像是一座小山。

It's not like a linear line.

它不像一条直线。

If you're on the left side of the hill, it means you're still pushing this thing up the hill.

如果你在山的左侧，则意味着你仍在将这个东西推上山。

You're still trying to figure out how to do this.

您仍在尝试弄清楚如何做到这一点。

But once work gets to the top, it's downhill from there.

但一旦工作达到顶峰，就开始走下坡路了。

It's just pure execution and we know how to nail it.

这只是纯粹的执行，我们知道如何做到这一点。

So if we're almost at the bottom of the hill on something and it needs two more days, fine.

因此，如果我们已经快要到达山脚了，而且还需要两天时间，那也没关系。

If there's any work that's left over that's still on the left side of the hill, meaning we're still pushing it up, we don't know how we're going to do it and we're at our time limit, it almost certainly dies.

如果还有剩余的工作仍在山的左侧，这意味着我们仍在将其推上来，我们不知道如何去做，而且已经到了时间限制，那么它几乎肯定会死掉。

So there are some contextual decisions to make at that point, but fundamentally that's how we approach work.

因此，此时需要做出一些具体决策，但从根本上来说，这就是我们处理工作的方式。

And this prevents long running projects that never end, which by the way are the most demoralizing kinds of projects.

这可以防止长期运行的项目永远不会结束，顺便说一句，这是最令人沮丧的项目类型。

Jason Fried: Things that you're stuck on that you don't want to do that never end, sucks.

Jason Fried：你被困在你不想做的事情上永远不会结束，这很糟糕。

And if people get stuck on a couple of those, they want to leave their job.

如果人们被其中的几个所困，他们就会想辞职。

So the implications here are significant.

所以这里的意义是重大的。

And so we want to keep people out of that zone of like, I hate this work and it goes on forever.

所以我们想让人们远离这样的区域，我讨厌这项工作，而且它会永远持续下去。

Because sometimes you're going to hate the work.

因为有时你会讨厌这份工作。

Not all projects are that exciting.

并非所有项目都那么令人兴奋。

Sometimes it's maintenance stuff, sometimes it's updating an internal billing system that's boring and no customers are going to see but needs to be done.

有时是维护工作，有时是更新内部计费系统，这很无聊，没有客户会看到但需要完成。

But you'll know that, hey, at maximum we've got four weeks on this.

但你会知道，嘿，我们最多有四个星期的时间来处理这个问题。

I can already see the end from the beginning, no big deal.

我已经从开头就看到结局了，没什么大不了的。

But if it's like this is going to take nine months and you're on week four and you're like, I hate this, bad.

但如果这需要九个月的时间，而你已经到了第四周，你会说，我讨厌这个，糟糕。

So we want to stay away from that sort of thing.

所以我们要远离此类事情。

Lenny: You have these quotes along these lines about planning, long-term business planning is a fantasy.

莱尼：您有这些关于规划的引言，长期业务规划是一个幻想。

I don't plan long-term because I want to do what I think, not what I thought.

我不做长期计划，因为我想做我所想的事，而不是我所想的事。

Lenny: I love these.

莱尼：我喜欢这些。

This whole idea of appetites, it's very appealing.

整个食欲的想法非常吸引人。

It makes so much sense.

这很有意义。

It's like the ultimate impact to effort calculation.

这就像对努力计算的最终影响一样。

The effort we'll put into this is fixed and we'll not go beyond this because the impact we expect from this is pretty clear.

我们为此付出的努力是固定的，我们不会超出这个范围，因为我们期望由此产生的影响是非常明确的。

And if the effort goes up and up and up, well why did we even do this?

如果努力不断增加，那么我们为什么要这样做呢？

But obviously the downside is you can't promise things really to sales marketing, which I think makes sense in your type of business.

但显然，缺点是你不能真正向销售营销做出承诺，我认为这对于你的业务类型是有意义的。

Do you see this work in businesses that aren't your business this approach?

您是否认为这种方法在非您业务的业务中有效？

Jason Fried: Well, let me talk about promises for a second.

Jason Fried：好吧，让我谈谈 Promise。

Promises are the downfall of every business.

承诺是每个企业的失败。

Every time we've made a promise to get something out in a certain period of time and we kind of inevitably seem to miss it, it's funny how it's almost like it would've been out in time, but the fact that we'd promised it made it not deliver in time.

每当我们承诺在某个时间段内交付某些东西时，我们似乎不可避免地会错过它，有趣的是，它几乎就像它会及时交付一样，但我们承诺的事实却使它无法及时交付。

There's some strange thing that happens when you promise things.

当你做出承诺时，就会发生一些奇怪的事情。

So we've learned to not promise anything.

所以我们学会了不许诺任何事情。

We can share what we're working on if we want to.

如果愿意，我们可以分享我们正在做的事情。

We can tell people we're doing something.

我们可以告诉人们我们正在做某事。

And by the way, the worst promise, and by the way, we've made a couple of these recently, we always regret them.

顺便说一句，最糟糕的承诺，顺便说一句，我们最近做出了一些这样的承诺，我们总是后悔。

It's like by the end of the year.

好像到年底了。

That's the one promise you got to be very careful of, because it's so easy to make.

这是你必须非常小心的一个承诺，因为它很容易做出。

There's nothing easier than promising work later.

没有什么比承诺以后的工作更容易的了。

Jason Fried: And the further away it is, the easier it is to promise.

Jason Fried：距离越远，就越容易做出承诺。

And so this whole, by the end of the year, oh, red flag.

所以到今年年底，哦，危险信号。

Just remind yourself whenever you say that to yourself, go, oh, wait a second.

每当你对自己说这句话时，请提醒自己，走，哦，等一下。

Wait, wait, what am I doing right now?

等等，等等，我现在在做什么？

Because you're probably setting yourself up for disappointment.

因为你可能会让自己失望。

So as far as other companies running this way, there are a number of other companies that are running this way and more and more are adopting Shape Up all the time.

就其他以这种方式运行的公司而言，还有许多其他公司也在以这种方式运行，并且越来越多的公司一直在采用 Shape Up。

But it's a struggle.

但这是一场斗争。

It's hard.

这很难。

It's hard to change the way you work.

改变你的工作方式是很困难的。

I think companies form roots and roots go in the ground and once your root structure is formed, the plant that grows from that is the plant that grows from that, basically.

我认为公司形成根，根扎入地下，一旦你的根结构形成，基本上，从那里生长的植物就是从那里生长的植物。

You kind of have to uproot.

你必须连根拔起。

And this is not really a totally clear metaphor because that plant is that plant, but you almost have to plant a new seed somewhere else, let's just say, and then grow something new because it's very hard to change in flight and change what you have and change what you're used to.

这并不是一个完全清楚的比喻，因为那棵植物就是那棵植物，但你几乎必须在其他地方种下一颗新种子，这么说吧，然后种植一些新的东西，因为很难在飞行中改变、改变你所拥有的、改变你习惯的。

Jason Fried: So what we often encourage people to do is keep working the way you're working, but some future project, some low criticality project, try this new method on that.

Jason Fried：所以我们经常鼓励人们继续按照现在的工作方式工作，但是在一些未来的项目，一些低重要性的项目上，尝试这种新方法。

So if it doesn't work, because it's probably not going to work very well the first time, just like if I gave you a guitar and you never played before, it'd be unreasonable for me to expect you to play well.

所以如果它不起作用，因为第一次可能不会很好地工作，就像我给你一把吉他而你以前从未弹过一样，我期望你弹得很好是不合理的。

You're going to suck for a while.

你会吸一段时间。

So go pick some things that don't matter if you suck at them for a while and try this method over there and go, oh, you know what?

所以，去挑选一些即使你暂时不喜欢的事情也没关系，然后尝试一下这个方法，然后，哦，你知道吗？

I'm actually getting quite good.

我实际上已经变得很好了。

Now let's try to bring this into some more critical stuff.

现在让我们尝试将其带入一些更关键的内容中。

I think that's the important way to approach these sorts of projects, which is to take the criticality out.

我认为这是处理此类项目的重要方法，即消除关键性。

Because what ends up happening is that when people try to try something new on something really critical and it doesn't work, they'll never try it again.

因为最终发生的情况是，当人们尝试在真正关键的事情上尝试新的东西并且不起作用时，他们将永远不会再尝试。

Jason Fried: They've destroyed all future opportunities to try this again, because everyone knows how bad it went last time on something that really mattered.

杰森·弗里德：他们已经毁掉了所有未来再次尝试的机会，因为每个人都知道上次在真正重要的事情上表现得有多糟糕。

And they would've gone, we could have done it our old way.

他们会走了，我们可以用我们的老方法来做。

Our old way worked.

我们的老方法奏效了。

It kind of sucked, but it worked.

这有点糟糕，但确实有效。

And so now you're comparing two things that aren't really comparable, but you're always going to go with the momentum that you had versus the new thing.

所以现在你正在比较两个没有真正可比性的东西，但你总是会选择你拥有的动力来对抗新事物。

And so you got to be careful with that.

所以你必须小心这一点。

So I know I'm rambling a bit on it, but that's my general sense and feel on how to adopt a different way of working.

所以我知道我在这方面有点漫无目的，但这是我对如何采用不同工作方式的总体感觉和感受。

Lenny: There's also this cool down period after one of these, what do you call these?

莱尼：其中之一之后还有一段冷静期，你称之为什么？

A sprint or what's the term for it?

冲刺或者它的术语是什么？

Jason Fried: No, I hate that term.

杰森·弗里德：不，我讨厌这个词。

I don't like the word sprint because how do you feel after a sprint?

我不喜欢冲刺这个词，因为冲刺之后你感觉如何？

Exhausted.

筋疲力尽的。

Jason Fried: You can.

杰森·弗里德：可以。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

It's funny because I was a sprinter in high school, so I love sprinting.

有趣的是，因为我在高中时是一名短跑运动员，所以我喜欢短跑。

But if you go all out, you might feel high for a minute, but you can't go all out again.

但如果你全力以赴，你可能会兴奋一分钟，但你就不能再全力以赴了。

You've got to really catch your breath and you certainly like to sprint.

你必须真正屏住呼吸，而且你当然喜欢冲刺。

I remember my track coach actually ran in college for a year until I realized that I wasn't good enough.

我记得我的田径教练实际上在大学里跑了一年，直到我意识到我还不够好。

But he made us run 20 200s in a row with just two minutes break in between, and the 200 is an incredibly hard race.

但他让我们连续跑了 20 200 米，中间只有两分钟的休息时间，而 200 米是一场极其艰苦的比赛。

You're all out for 200 meters or yards.

你已经全力出击 200 米或 200 码。

And after the fifth one I just threw up.

第五次之后我就吐了。

I just threw up.

我刚刚吐了。

It's like that's kind of what work is for a lot of people.

对很多人来说，这就是工作。

It's like 20 200s, they have these sprints and they never seem to end.

就像 20200 秒一样，他们有这些冲刺，而且似乎永远不会结束。

And there's one sprint after the other, after the other, after the other, after the other.

冲刺一个接一个，一个接一个，一个接一个，一个接一个。

Jason Fried: And that's why I don't like the word because you can't layer that back to back to back to back.

Jason Fried：这就是为什么我不喜欢这个词，因为你不能将其背靠背分层。

You cannot sprint back to back, to back, to back in life.

你无法在生活中背靠背、后背、后背冲刺。

And you can't do it at work.

而且你不能在工作中这样做。

People do it at work, but I don't think it actually works.

人们在工作中这样做，但我认为这实际上不起作用。

So what we do is after our six week cycles, we typically take what we call a two-week cool down.

因此，我们所做的就是在六周的周期之后，我们通常会进行所谓的两周冷静期。

So we call these cycles, not sprints.

所以我们称这些为周期，而不是冲刺。

A two-week cool down, and we call them cycles because cycles happen again and again and again.

两周的冷静期，我们称之为周期，因为周期一次又一次地发生。

Sprints start and end.

冲刺开始和结束。

Cycles happen.

循环发生。

There's cycles in life and seasons, and I like that idea that you're prepared for this thing to happen again.

生命和季节都有循环，我喜欢这样的想法：你已经为这种事情再次发生做好了准备。

Jason Fried: Take two weeks, cool down.

Jason Fried：花两周时间，冷静下来。

That's when people can sort of internally freelance.

那时人们可以在内部自由职业。

They're still working, but they're kind of tightening up a couple of things.

他们仍在工作，但他们正在加强一些事情。

Maybe we just shipped or working on a couple extra days on something that didn't ship that's going to ship in two days, or kind of fixing some bugs and messing around with some stuff that they wanted to get to, but no one ever had time to and was never scheduled.

也许我们只是交付了一些额外的几天，或者花了几天的时间来处理一些在两天内交付的东西，或者修复了一些错误并搞乱了一些他们想要得到的东西，但没有人有时间，也从未安排过。

So that's kind a good time to do that.

所以现在是这样做的好时机。

In the meantime, a few of us are shaping up the next cycles projects and finalizing that and writing the pitches up for that.

与此同时，我们中的一些人正在制定下一个周期的项目并最终确定该项目，并为此编写提案。

So that's what those cycles are for.

这就是这些周期的目的。

It's not that you're stopping work, it's that you're doing other kinds of work.

这并不是说你要停止工作，而是你正在做其他类型的工作。

And that I think is replenishing and refreshing, and I think that's the important part versus back to back to back sprints of the same kind of work all the time.

我认为这是补充和刷新，我认为这是与一直进行同类工作的背靠背冲刺相比的重要部分。

Lenny: You mentioned also that you have no growth goals, that you make decisions a lot on instinct and gut and opinion, which sounds amazing, it's great if you could pull it off.

莱尼：你还提到你没有成长目标，你很多时候都是凭本能、直觉和意见做出决定，这听起来很神奇，如果你能成功的话那就太好了。

Feels also very hard to operationalize and maybe make the best decisions in times.

感觉也很难实施，有时也很难做出最好的决定。

Can you just talk about how you actually operationalize that and what you find happens when you approach things that way?

你能谈谈你是如何实际实施这一点的，以及当你以这种方式处理事情时你发现会发生什么吗？

Jason Fried: I'll just admit that that's the only way I've ever known how to work.

Jason Fried：我承认这是我所知道的唯一工作方式。

I don't know how to make decisions by numbers or I don't find any joy in it, frankly.

坦率地说，我不知道如何根据数字做出决定，或者说我没有从中找到任何乐趣。

I've always been intuition driven and gut driven.

我一直都是直觉驱动和直觉驱动的。

And frankly, to be honest, I think everyone actually is.

坦率地说，说实话，我认为每个人实际上都是如此。

And this is part of the thing I want to write up.

这是我想写的事情的一部分。

I've been thinking about writing about this.

我一直在考虑写这个。

I think everything's a judgment call.

我认为一切都是一个判断。

And so yeah, data can play a part.

所以，是的，数据可以发挥作用。

All sorts of things can play a part, but unless you're letting a machine make the decision, that's purely rational.

各种各样的因素都可以发挥作用，但除非你让机器来做决定，否则这纯粹是理性的。

If you're asking a human to make it's a judgment call.

如果你要求一个人来做这件事，那就需要做出判断。

They're bringing to bear thousands of things they know and don't know about that influence them about this particular decision.

他们运用了成千上万的他们知道和不知道的事情来影响他们做出这个特定的决定。

And it's why when companies hire executives, what are they looking for in executive?

这就是为什么当公司雇用高管时，他们在寻找高管的什么？

They typically go judgment and experience.

他们通常会进行判断和体验。

Jason Fried: They're not like they can read an Excel spreadsheet.

Jason Fried：他们不像可以阅读 Excel 电子表格。

That's not the thing that matters.

这不是重要的事情。

Anyone can read that or anyone can read a chart or you can learn to do that.

任何人都可以阅读它，或者任何人都可以阅读图表，或者您可以学习这样做。

They're looking for judgment and experience, which is a very amorphous thing.

他们正在寻找判断力和经验，这是一个非常不稳定的东西。

It's like, what is it really?

就像，它到底是什么？

Well, they've been around, they've seen a lot of things, they've absorbed a lot of experiences and they're going to bring those undescribable things to bear to make decisions for the business.

嗯，他们一直在周围，他们见过很多东西，他们吸收了很多经验，他们将把那些难以描述的东西带到为企业做出决策。

So out of all the things, data might be one thing, but there's thousands of things that go into a decision that many of which you don't even know.

因此，在所有事物中，数据可能是一件事，但影响决策的因素有成千上万，其中许多因素您甚至不知道。

And I just feel like I'm comfortable admitting that that I don't really know why I'm making these calls, but I'm making these calls regardless.

我只是觉得我很舒服地承认我真的不知道为什么要打这些电话，但无论如何我都会打这些电话。

And I'm not looking at a number and going, if this is fifty-one percent versus forty-nine, I'm going this way for sure.

我不会看着一个数字然后说，如果这是百分之五十一对百分之四十九，我肯定会这样做。

Jason Fried: That could be an input perhaps, but it's not the only input.

Jason Fried：这也许是一个输入，但不是唯一的输入。

And I think people should recognize that even if you're a data-driven person, there's so much more at play here.

我认为人们应该认识到，即使你是一个数据驱动的人，这里还有很多东西在发挥作用。

So I just feel like just being honest about that and that's sort of how I've always looked at it.

所以我只是觉得要诚实地对待这一点，这就是我一直以来的看法。

And I also will admit, as I just mentioned, I don't know the things that go into my decision-making process, but I'm absolutely fascinated by decision-making.

我也承认，正如我刚才提到的，我不知道决策过程中涉及哪些事情，但我对决策绝对着迷。

I think it's one of the most interesting human endeavors.

我认为这是人类最有趣的努力之一。

And I would just say that give your intuition credit.

我只想说，相信你的直觉。

Give your gut credit.

相信你的直觉。

It's absorbed everything.

它吸收了一切。

And plus the things that you don't know it absorbed that are valuable.

再加上你不知道它吸收的有价值的东西。

Lenny: It's easier to do that if you're the founder running the company, obviously.

莱尼：显然，如果你是公司的创始人，那么做到这一点会更容易。

Is there something you find that you can do to help your teammates approach things that way too?

您是否发现可以做一些事情来帮助您的队友也以这种方式处理事情？

Do you just trust their instincts also in a similar way?

你是否也以类似的方式相信他们的直觉？

Jason Fried: Yeah, you're right by the way, it is easy for me to sit up here and say this, I own the place.

杰森·弗里德：是的，顺便说一句，你说得对，我很容易坐在这里说，我拥有这个地方。

No one can fire me.

没有人可以解雇我。

I get it, right.

我明白了，对。

I can be wrong all the time, go, my gut just told me to do this.

我可能一直都是错的，去吧，我的直觉告诉我要这样做。

And I understand, I do.

我明白，我愿意。

I'm self-aware enough to understand that.

我有足够的自知之明，能够理解这一点。

But I think that by demonstrating that's how we make decisions, it creates space for other people to make decisions that way.

但我认为，通过展示我们如何做出决策，可以为其他人以这种方式做出决策创造空间。

And when we have conversations, I'm talking with my team about something, I'll often go, I don't really know.

当我们进行对话时，我正在与我的团队谈论一些事情，我经常会去，我真的不知道。

It feels like this.

感觉是这样的。

It feels this way.

感觉是这样的。

And they'll say, I feel this way.

他们会说，我有这种感觉。

And I'll ask them, how do you feel?

我会问他们，你感觉怎么样？

How do you feel?

你感觉如何？

What we ask people in general is we say, what do you think?

我们一般问人们的是，我们说，你觉得怎么样？

We don't say, what do you know?

我们不说，你知道什么？

We often say, what do you think?

我们经常说，你觉得怎么样？

We might say, what do you know?

我们可能会说，你知道什么？

Jason Fried: But we also say, what do you think more time.

杰森·弗里德：但我们也会说，更多时间你觉得怎么样。

And what does that mean?

这意味着什么？

What do you think is, I don't know where these thoughts come from and I don't know what forms them.

你认为是什么，我不知道这些想法从何而来，也不知道它们是由什么形成的。

So I think it's interesting to look at the things we say and go, we actually do want people to think.

所以我认为看看我们所说和所做的事情很有趣，我们实际上确实希望人们思考。

And so I'll often say, what do you think or what do you feel or how does this feel?

所以我经常会说，你有什么想法或者你有什么感觉或者这感觉如何？

Is something we talk more about at work than pretty much anything else, which is like, how does this screen feel?

我们在工作中谈论最多的事情是不是像这个屏幕感觉如何？

How does this flow feel?

这种流动感觉如何？

How does this feature feel?

这个功能感觉如何？

How does this word feel?

这句话感觉如何？

How does this sentence feel?

这句话感觉如何？

How does this paragraph feel?

这一段感觉如何？

How does this website feel?

这个网站感觉如何？

How does these colors feel?

这些颜色感觉如何？

Because human beings feel.

因为人类有感觉。

Jason Fried: And while we have a logical side to us and a rational side to us, we're primarily feeling creatures.

杰森·弗里德：虽然我们有逻辑的一面和理性的一面，但我们主要是感觉生物。

Even if we don't admit it, we are.

即使我们不承认，我们也是如此。

And so I'm always curious about that.

所以我一直对此很好奇。

So I bring that up a lot and I ask other people how they feel, and I think hopefully that encourages people to share that side of their opinion.

所以我经常提出这个问题，并询问其他人的感受，我认为这希望能鼓励人们分享他们的观点。

And we almost never, sometimes we look at numbers to sort of be an input, but it's never prove that.

我们几乎从不，有时我们将数字作为输入，但它从来没有证明这一点。

I'll never say justify that.

我永远不会说证明这一点是合理的。

That's just not terminology or lingo that we ever bring up.

这不是我们提出的术语或行话。

It's not a way.

这不是一个办法。

Jason Fried: It's, how do you feel?

Jason Fried：是的，你感觉怎么样？

It's not like, how certain are you?

这不是说，你有多确定？

I try to tend to shy away from anything that's about certainty.

我试图回避任何与确定性有关的事情。

We're not after certainty.

我们不追求确定性。

I want to know how you think it feels.

我想知道你的感受如何。

So anyway, I'm rambling again, but this is, I'm rambling because this is actually how things go.

不管怎样，我又开始胡言乱语了，但这是我胡言乱语，因为事情实际上就是这样发展的。

When we talk, there is a lot of this, it's not precise in a sense.

当我们谈论的时候，有很多这样的东西，从某种意义上说是不精确的。

It eventually becomes precise when it's out in the world, but the thought process is very rambling and very amorphous, and you kind of find your way as you go.

当它出现在世界上时，它最终会变得精确，但思维过程非常漫无目的，非常不稳定，你一边走一边找到自己的路。

And eventually go yeah, yeah, that's it.

最终，是的，是的，就是这样。

That's it.

就是这样。

That feels right.

感觉不错。

Lenny: This kind of advice comes up a lot actually on this podcast, especially for product managers, that there's a lot of power in just trusting your instincts and not just being this kind of unbiased participant in a product team, having actual, here's what I think works from your own experience using the product from your own life experience.

Lenny：这种建议实际上在这个播客中出现了很多，特别是对于产品经理来说，相信自己的直觉，而不仅仅是成为产品团队中这种公正的参与者，有很大的力量，我认为这就是你自己使用产品的实际经验，来自你自己的生活经历。

But this came up with Brian episode.

但这带来了布莱恩的插曲。

He's running the company, he's telling everyone basically, here's what we're building.

他正在经营公司，他基本上告诉每个人，这就是我们正在建设的东西。

A lot of people said, okay, that'd be great if our CEO is also a designer, very product-minded person.

很多人说，好吧，如果我们的首席执行官也是一位设计师，非常注重产品的人，那就太好了。

Many people aren't that, many people don't have actual enough experience to have built amazing instincts.

许多人并非如此，许多人没有足够的实际经验来建立惊人的本能。

So, do you solve that by just hiring people that have a lot of experience?

那么，你能通过雇佣有丰富经验的人来解决这个问题吗？

Is it like a hiring thing?

是不是类似于招聘的事情？

Is it trust people that have a lot more experience more because not everyone's going to have the right instinct?

是不是因为不是每个人都会有正确的直觉，所以才相信经验丰富的人？

Jason Fried: It's true.

杰森·弗里德：确实如此。

Look, Brian's probably one of the greatest CEOs around today, but I like small businesses.

看，布莱恩可能是当今最伟大的首席执行官之一，但我喜欢小企业。

So he knows how to run a bigger organization.

所以他知道如何管理一个更大的组织。

I wouldn't.

我不会。

So I can't really step into that answer from that perspective.

所以我无法从这个角度真正进入这个答案。

One of the reasons we stay small, I think, is so we can all rub off on each other.

我认为，我们保持规模较小的原因之一是我们可以互相影响。

And when we hire, we can be very, very selective because we only hire a few people a year.

当我们招聘时，我们可以非常非常挑剔，因为我们每年只招聘几个人。

And so I only hire designers and product people, David hires programmers, and different people in the company hire different people.

所以我只雇佣设计师和产品人员，大卫雇佣程序员，公司里不同的人雇佣不同的人。

But when I hire designers, I'm curious about their tastes.

但当我雇用设计师时，我很好奇他们的品味。

I'm curious about what they like.

我很好奇他们喜欢什么。

I'm curious about what other products they think are good.

我很好奇他们认为还有哪些其他好的产品。

I'm curious about what they've seen that they admire or who they...

我很好奇他们看到了什么，他们钦佩什么，或者他们......

I'm always asking about that because that helps me get a sense of who they are and what lens they see the world through and what kind of influences they're going to bring to bear.

我总是问这个问题，因为这有助于我了解他们是谁，他们通过什么镜头看待世界，以及他们将带来什么样的影响。

So that's the kind of stuff I'm looking for.

这就是我正在寻找的东西。

Jason Fried: And one of the things that we do during the interview process for designers specifically and product people, which is the same thing in my mind, is they do a project for us at the end.

Jason Fried：我们在面试过程中专门针对设计师和产品人员所做的一件事，在我看来是同一件事，就是他们最后为我们做了一个项目。

So the last five finalists will do a project for us.

所以最后五名决赛选手将为我们做一个项目。

We'll pay them to do the project, they'll have a week to do it, they'll do it, and then I'll critique it with them.

我们将付钱给他们做这个项目，他们将有一周的时间来做，他们会做，然后我会和他们一起批评。

Even if I love it, I will push back in certain areas.

即使我喜欢它，我也会在某些方面进行抵制。

And one of the things I'll often ask is, if you had another couple days, what would you do with this?

我经常问的一件事是，如果你再有几天时间，你会用这个做什么？

And I want to see where people go with that.

我想看看人们对此有何看法。

To me, that is where you can see they don't have any time to think.

对我来说，这就是你可以看到他们没有时间思考的地方。

So where does their gut go?

那么他们的肠道去哪儿了？

What are their instincts?

他们的本能是什么？

Where do they arrive after having to riff on the spot with something?

当他们不得不当场即兴演奏一些东西后，他们会到达哪里？

Jason Fried: So what's behind what they built?

Jason Fried：那么他们建造的背后是什么？

Because what they built should just be some of what they had in mind.

因为他们建造的东西应该只是他们心中的一些想法。

It shouldn't be everything.

它不应该是一切。

Now they're exhausted of every future idea.

现在他们已经厌倦了所有未来的想法。

And I've seen some people who we thought were really good, and in that moment, they don't know where to go with it.

我见过一些我们认为非常优秀的人，但在那一刻，他们不知道该去哪里。

Now, that's not to say some people don't need time to think and think it through, but I'm still looking for people who just, their gut is filled with ideas.

现在，这并不是说有些人不需要时间思考和彻底思考，但我仍在寻找那些内心充满想法的人。

And so it doesn't always translate but that's how I try to suss out whether or not someone has a good gut instinct on where to go.

所以它并不总是可以翻译，但这就是我试图弄清楚某人是否对去哪里有良好的直觉的方式。

And it almost doesn't necessarily even matter where they go with it because this is raw, just raw gut.

而且它们放在哪里几乎都不一定重要，因为这是原始的，只是原始的内脏。

But I want to see that they have one and they're willing to lean into it and not be afraid of saying things that may not make any sense.

但我希望看到他们有一个，并且愿意投入其中，而不是害怕说出可能没有任何意义的话。

Jason Fried: But yeah, I've got some other ideas and we could try this, and we try this, and I kind of play with this idea.

杰森·弗里德：但是，是的，我有一些其他的想法，我们可以尝试这个，我们尝试这个，我有点考虑这个想法。

And I don't know.

我不知道。

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, maybe we try, what if we did that?

事实上，现在我在想，也许我们可以尝试一下，如果我们这样做呢？

What about this?

这又如何呢？

And then I would say something and we'd riff and we start riffing.

然后我会说些什么，然后我们就即兴演奏，然后开始即兴演奏。

And when we start riffing, there's a synchronicity that I'm looking for.

当我们开始即兴演奏时，我正在寻找一种同步性。

And when I feel that synchronicity and that resonance, the two wavelengths are just perfectly vibrating together, then I know we have something.

当我感觉到同步性和共振时，两个波长完美地一起振动，然后我知道我们有一些东西。

So that's the kind of stuff I'm looking for when I hire people.

这就是我在招聘人员时寻找的东西。

And I do think that that translates to people with a better gut feel than someone who's more of a, let's call it an academic product person, which can be very fine at other places, but it wouldn't really work here.

我确实认为，这意味着人们比那些更像是学术产品人员的人有更好的直觉，这在其他地方可能很好，但在这里行不通。

Lenny: That's really great advice for someone looking for someone that has a good instinct and gut.

莱尼：对于正在寻找具有良好直觉和直觉的人来说，这确实是一个很好的建议。

And I think it's interesting because that's often the opposite, what you described is what many people don't want.

我认为这很有趣，因为这往往是相反的，你所描述的是很多人不想要的。

Someone with just a ton of ideas.

一个有很多想法的人。

Because a lot of companies, a lot of leaders are like, we got plenty of ideas.

因为很多公司、很多领导都喜欢，我们有很多想法。

We just need you to help us ship stuff.

我们只需要你帮助我们运送东西。

Jason Fried: I don't want that either.

杰森·弗里德：我也不希望那样。

So I don't want just ideas.

所以我想要的不仅仅是想法。

So they have to make something that's clear.

所以他们必须做出明确的事情。

First of all, it has to be good and clear.

首先，它必须是良好且清晰的。

And then they also have to be able to riff on the spot and think about how else they could take this.

然后他们还必须能够当场即兴发挥并思考他们还能如何接受这一点。

We've had some people who were just so scatterbrained and they've got a million ideas, but when we asked them to execute something for this project, it was a total mess.

我们有一些人非常心不在焉，他们有上百万个想法，但是当我们要求他们为这个项目执行某些操作时，结果却一团糟。

You could see their time management skills were off and they focused on the wrong things.

你可以看到他们的时间管理能力不佳，而且他们专注于错误的事情。

That is not a go for me, that's a no go.

这对我来说不是可行的，也不是可行的。

Jason Fried: What's a go is that's a clever design, well executed, thoughtful, clear, and here's where they could take it from here on out if they had a few more days, or even if we had 15 minutes, what would you do you do with that?

Jason Fried：值得一提的是，这是一个巧妙的设计，执行得当，深思熟虑，清晰，如果他们还有几天时间，或者即使我们有 15 分钟，你会用它做什么？

So that's the kind of stuff that I think ultimately is the meat of it.

所以我认为这就是它的核心内容。

And so I always think of it in terms of play.

所以我总是从游戏的角度来思考它。

This is play.

这是玩。

I want to play with this product.

我想玩一下这个产品。

I want to play with this design.

我想玩一下这个设计。

I want to play with this idea.

我想尝试一下这个想法。

It's play and play is a thing.

这是玩，玩是一回事。

It's a very clear thing versus a rigid, boring approach to product development, which again, can be successful, but it wouldn't work at our company.

与僵化、无聊的产品开发方法相比，这是一个非常明确的事情，同样，它可以成功，但在我们公司行不通。

Great clarification.

很好的澄清。

I completely agree.: This episode is brought to you by Wix Studio.

我完全同意。：这一集是由 Wix Studio 为您带来的。

Your agency is just landed a dream client, and you already have big ideas for the website, but do you have the tools to bring your ambitious vision to life?

您的代理机构刚刚找到了一位梦想客户，并且您已经对网站有了很大的想法，但是您是否拥有将您雄心勃勃的愿景变为现实的工具？

Let me tell you about Wix Studio, the new platform that lets agencies deliver exceptional client sites with maximum efficiency.

让我向您介绍一下 Wix Studio，这个新平台可以让代理机构以最高效率交付卓越的客户网站。

How?

如何？

First, let's talk about advanced design capabilities.

首先我们来谈谈先进的设计能力。

With Wix Studio, you can build unique layouts with a revolutionary grid experience and watch as elements scale proportionally by default.

借助 Wix Studio，您可以通过革命性的网格体验构建独特的布局，并观察元素默认按比例缩放。

No-code animations at sparks of delight while adding custom CSS gives total design control.

无代码动画令人愉悦，同时添加自定义 CSS 提供全面的设计控制。

Bring ambitious client projects to life with any industry, with a fully integrated suite of business solutions, from e-commerce to events, bookings and more, and extend the capabilities even further with hundreds of APIs and integrations.

借助从电子商务到活动、预订等的完全集成的业务解决方案套件，将雄心勃勃的客户项目带入任何行业，并通过数百个 API 和集成进一步扩展功能。

You know what else?

你知道还有什么吗？

The workflows just make...

工作流程只是让...

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

APIs and integrations.

API 和集成。

You know what else?

你知道还有什么吗？

The workflows just make sense.

工作流程才有意义。

There's the built-in AI tools, the on-canvas collaborating, a centralized workspace, the reuse of assets across sites, the seamless client handover.

有内置的人工智能工具、画布上的协作、集中的工作空间、跨站点的资产重用、无缝的客户移交。

And that's not all.

这还不是全部。

Find out more at wix.com/studio.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 wix.com/studio。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

We had some questions come in from the audience when we were preparing for this.

当我们准备这个时，观众提出了一些问题。

We both tweeted to see what people wanted to ask.

我们都发推文看看人们想问什么。

I have two that I picked out.

我有两个是我挑出来的。

One is from Matt Mullenweg.

其中一封来自马特·穆伦韦格。

How cool is that?

那有多酷？

Lenny: I think you may have seen this question, but the question is, what is a spectacular failure of someone trying to follow your advice and failing when it doesn't stick?

莱尼：我想你可能已经看到了这个问题，但问题是，如果有人试图遵循你的建议，但如果不坚持的话，就会失败，这算什么？

What is the reason?

原因是什么？

Jason Fried: People trying to make a rapid, fundamentally, 180 degree changes quickly is a great way to fall flat on your face, basically.

Jason Fried：人们试图做出快速的、根本上的、180 度的转变，基本上是一个很好的方式，让你摔倒。

I have seen people who try to adopt, let's say, Shape Up, and they come back six weeks later and they're like, "This sucks.

我见过有人尝试采用“Shape Up”，六周后他们回来说，“这太糟糕了。

This doesn't work." I'm like, "I'm not surprised to hear that.

这是行不通的。”我想，“听到这个我并不感到惊讶。

Tell me how you did it." And then, they explain like, "Oh, the next project we did, we did this." I'm like, "Yeah, I'm really not surprised to hear that now." Because you can't really do that.

告诉我你是怎么做到的。”然后，他们解释道，“哦，我们做的下一个项目，我们做了这个。”我想，“是的，我现在听到这个消息真的并不感到惊讶。”因为你真的无法做到这一点。

You can't turn on a dime.

你不能一毛钱地转动。

There's this thing called momentum.

有一种东西叫动量。

I always try to think of things in terms of the physical world.

我总是尝试从物质世界的角度来思考事物。

The more massive an object, the more energy it takes to change its direction.

物体质量越大，改变其方向所需的能量就越多。

This is why big companies move slowly.

这就是大公司行动缓慢的原因。

Jason Fried: This is also why momentum, which is the way you've been working for four years, is going to power you forward in a certain way.

杰森·弗里德：这也是为什么动力，也就是你四年来的工作方式，会以某种方式推动你前进。

It's very hard to turn the corner immediately or turn around.

立即拐弯或掉头是非常困难的。

You just cannot do it physically.

你只是无法从身体上做到这一点。

If you can't do it physically, you can't do it this way.

如果你身体上做不到，你就不能用这种方式来做。

I think that's what I've seen, is these rapid like, "All right, starting tomorrow, we're starting Shape Up." It's like, well, no, it's not going to work.

我想这就是我所看到的，这些快速的声音就像是，“好吧，从明天开始，我们开始塑形。”就像，好吧，不，这是行不通的。

Unless you say we're going to do it on this other thing that doesn't matter so much.

除非你说我们要去做其他无关紧要的事情。

That's one thing I would say.

这是我要说的一件事。

Jason Fried: The other thing is that pretty much every business is a spectacular failure.

贾森·弗里德：另一件事是，几乎所有企业都遭遇了巨大的失败。

It just is.

确实如此。

It's like, business is really hard and the ones that make it are all outliers.

就好像，生意真的很难，而成功的人都是局外人。

This is why most businesses fail.

这就是大多数企业失败的原因。

There's a million reasons why, and it's always hard to pin it down.

有一百万个原因，但总是很难确定。

And we can all look back.

我们都可以回顾过去。

By the way, I don't like to look back on things.

顺便说一句，我不喜欢回顾事情。

I'm not much of a fan of looking back on failures and trying to figure out what went wrong so we don't do it again, because I don't think we know what went wrong.

我不太喜欢回顾失败并试图找出问题所在，这样我们就不会再这样做，因为我认为我们不知道哪里出了问题。

I think we can spend a long time trying to analyze it and we're going to find something that we can agree on, and it tends to be what you can agree on so you can move on.

我认为我们可以花很长时间尝试分析它，我们会找到一些我们可以达成一致的东西，而且它往往是你们可以达成一致的，这样你们就可以继续前进。

But that doesn't mean that's what it was.

但这并不意味着事情就是这样。

Jason Fried: Just like we don't really know why you make decisions, you don't really know why things didn't work.

杰森·弗里德：就像我们不知道你为什么做出决定一样，你也不知道为什么事情不起作用。

Sometimes there are some examples, and I think it's true if you're talking about a mechanistic system.

有时会有一些例子，如果你谈论的是机械系统，我认为这是真的。

You're stamping metal and it's supposed to have perfect circles and it's an oval.

你正在冲压金属，它应该有完美的圆形，而它是椭圆形。

You can go back to that machine and see how the thing worked, and the line.

你可以回到那台机器，看看它是如何工作的，以及生产线。

You can adjust that and fix that.

您可以调整并修复它。

A lot of work though is not that way, especially software work, where there's a million different inputs and a million different people.

但很多工作并非如此，尤其是软件工作，其中有一百万个不同的输入和一百万个不同的人。

It's not simple stamping machines.

这不是简单的冲压机。

It's a different thing.

这是另一回事。

I don't know, but I do think that trying to make big changes too quickly is a primary reason.

我不知道，但我确实认为过快地做出重大改变是主要原因。

Lenny: You've seen this approach work at traditional companies, I imagine?

莱尼：我想你已经看到这种方法在传统公司发挥作用了吧？

It's not just companies that work in your way where there's no investors, they're not obsessed with growth?

不仅仅是那些在没有投资者的情况下按照你的方式运作的公司，他们并不痴迷于增长？

You've seen Shape Up implemented at traditional public type companies?

您见过传统上市公司实施 Shape Up 的情况吗？

Jason Fried: Yeah, it's usually smaller teams.

Jason Fried：是的，通常是较小的团队。

It's not like Airbnb, Brian's not going to go, "Okay, tomorrow, we're following this thing that these guys over 37signals came up with." But it's typically small teams inside larger companies that experiment with this.

这与 Airbnb 不同，Brian 不会说：“好吧，明天，我们将关注 37signals 上的这些人想出的东西。”但通常是大公司内部的小团队进行这种实验。

Sometimes it spreads and sometimes it doesn't, and it doesn't always need to.

有时它会传播，有时不会，而且并不总是需要传播。

It could be this one division, this one group that works a different way.

可能是这个部门、这个小组以不同的方式工作。

Jason Fried: Also, it doesn't have to be fully Shape Up.

Jason Fried：此外，它不必完全塑形。

It could be 30% of it.

可能是其中的30%。

Maybe it's just simply the six-week cycle thing is the thing and the rest of it doesn't matter so much.

也许这只是六周周期的问题，其余的并不那么重要。

Or it could be this idea of appetites versus estimates, and they can work that into the way they work.

或者这可能是欲望与估计的想法，他们可以将其融入到他们的工作方式中。

Take whatever works.

采取任何有效的措施。

You don't have to go wholesale on any of these things.

您不必批发这些东西。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

A second question comes from Leo Polovets, one of my favorite VCs.

第二个问题来自 Leo Polovets，我最喜欢的风险投资家之一。

He works at Susa Ventures.

他在 Susa Ventures 工作。

He asked the question a lot of people actually asked.

他问了很多人实际上问过的问题。

It's just, what does he think he got right and where has he changed his mind, if anywhere?

只是，他认为自己做对了什么？他在哪里改变了主意（如果有的话）？

You share a lot of strong opinions, very contrarian opinions.

你们分享了很多强烈的观点，非常逆向的观点。

So, maybe just mostly on that second part is what I'm most curious about.

所以，也许我最好奇的就是第二部分。

What have you changed your mind about?

你改变主意了？

Jason Fried: A few years, well, a handful of years ago, we used to make multiple products, and we went to just doing Basecamp.

Jason Fried：几年前，几年前，我们曾经生产多种产品，然后我们只做 Basecamp。

I thought I would be personally satisfied for the rest of my career, working on one thing and just making that thing the best it could possibly be.

我认为我个人会对我余下的职业生涯感到满意，专注于一件事，并尽可能地把它做到最好。

Essentially, working on one sculpture, and constantly tweaking it and chiseling it and just polishing it, and just making it better and better, and better, and better, and better.

本质上，就是创作一件雕塑，不断地调整它、凿刻它、抛光它，让它变得越来越好、越来越好、越来越好。

I still thoroughly enjoy working on Basecamp.

我仍然非常喜欢在 Basecamp 工作。

But a few years ago, we built this new thing called HEY, HEY.com email service, because we just felt like we had to make more things again.

但几年前，我们建立了这个名为 HEY, HEY.com 电子邮件服务的新产品，因为我们只是觉得我们必须再次制作更多东西。

Jason Fried: This idea that I thought, that we could be happy as a company just doing one thing really well, which was a major shift.

贾森·弗里德：我认为，作为一家公司，只要把一件事做得很好，我们就会感到高兴，这是一个重大转变。

We had multiple products.

我们有多种产品。

We basically wound those down.

我们基本上减少了这些。

We didn't ever close them down.

我们从来没有关闭过它们。

People can still use them, who were using them before, we just stopped selling them.

人们仍然可以使用它们，以前使用它们的人，我们只是停止销售它们。

We even changed the name of the business from 37signals to Basecamp.

我们甚至将公司名称从 37signals 更改为 Basecamp。

We're saying, we're signaling all through.

我们说，我们正在发出信号。

We're doing one thing that's just this thing called Basecamp.

我们正在做一件事，那就是 Basecamp。

It's a huge, massive decision to make, and so we were all in on it.

这是一个巨大的决定，所以我们都参与其中。

And then, a few years ago, we go, "You know what?

然后，几年前，我们说：“你知道吗？

We're makers.

我们是创造者。

Let's be honest about ourselves."

让我们对自己诚实吧。”

Jason Fried: I'm talking about me, and I was talking about David.

杰森·弗里德：我在谈论我自己，我在谈论大卫。

But we were just like, "We want to make more things again.

但我们只是想，“我们想再次制作更多东西。

We have some more ideas.

我们还有一些想法。

Why are we suppressing ourselves?

我们为什么要压抑自己？

Let's not do that." We made HEY and now we're doing ONCE, and we're going to make more products and more products and more products.

我们不要那样做。”我们制作了《HEY》，现在我们正在制作《ONCE》，我们将制作更多产品、更多产品、更多产品。

We're going to probably do another book, as I mentioned earlier.

正如我之前提到的，我们可能会再写一本书。

It was that.

就是这样。

I think that's the biggest major fundamental 180 degree change that I've changed my mind on, but I changed my mind all the time.

我认为这是我改变主意的最大的重大根本性 180 度改变，但我一直在改变主意。

Jason Fried: I disagree with myself constantly on small things.

Jason Fried：我经常在小事情上与自己意见不一致。

Product design decisions or the naming of something, or how we roll something out, or how I'm going to write something or present something or say something.

产品设计决策或某些东西的命名，或者我们如何推出某些东西，或者我将如何写一些东西或呈现一些东西或说一些东西。

There's probably an answer, I'm sure there's an answer in this podcast that if I listen back, I'd go, "I would probably answered it differently," or, "I don't even agree with the way I answered that." There's a million things like that happening all the time.

可能有一个答案，我确信这个播客中有一个答案，如果我回听，我会说，“我可能会以不同的方式回答它”，或者，“我什至不同意我回答这个问题的方式。”类似的事情随时都会发生一百万起。

But in terms of big things, I think that's the best example I can come up with.

但就大事情而言，我认为这是我能想到的最好的例子。

Lenny: It's clear that you've designed your life and designed your business in this very intentional way.

莱尼：很明显，你是用这种非常有意的方式设计你的生活和设计你的事业的。

Because the default path, and I'll reference this back to this other podcast episode, the default path is, build a company, raise a bunch of money, build massive business, generate a lot of revenue, exit, try something else.

因为默认路径，我将把它引用回另一个播客节目，默认路径是，建立一家公司，筹集大量资金，建立庞大的业务，产生大量收入，退出，尝试其他事情。

And you've done something very different.

你做了一些非常不同的事情。

You've built a company-

你建立了一家公司-

Jason Fried: Can I speak up to that, though?

Jason Fried：不过我可以说一下吗？

Jason Fried: Because this is the pathless path stuff?

Jason Fried：因为这是无路可走的东西？

Jason Fried: Is this what that was?

杰森·弗里德：是这样吗？

Yeah.

是的。

I'm moderately familiar with that idea.

我对这个想法还算熟悉。

I didn't listen to that podcast, but I saw some clips.

我没有听那个播客，但我看到了一些剪辑。

I find it interesting because you've designed your life intentionally.

我觉得这很有趣，因为你有意识地设计了你的生活。

It's funny because there are some principles I hold, perhaps, or some direction I'm headed, but I don't think about any of this ahead of time, including the company.

这很有趣，因为我可能坚持一些原则，或者我前进的一些方向，但我不会提前考虑这些，包括公司。

We don't have a multi-year plan.

我们没有多年计划。

I don't even have a one-year plan.

我什至没有一年计划。

I don't even have a six-month plan or a quarter.

我什至没有六个月或一个季度的计划。

We think about everything we're going to do every six weeks.

我们每六周就会考虑一次我们要做的所有事情。

Every six weeks, we rethink what we're going to do next.

每六周，我们就会重新思考下一步要做什么。

Jason Fried: We're very much an in-the-now company, making it up as we go.

Jason Fried：我们基本上是一家当下的公司，边做边做。

And this is true for me, personally, my career, the whole thing.

对于我个人、我的职业生涯以及整个事情来说都是如此。

I didn't have any of this planned out.

我没有任何计划。

I didn't decide I wanted to be like this or like that.

我没有决定我想成为这样或那样。

I just figure out what works and keep doing that until it doesn't.

我只是弄清楚什么是有效的，然后继续这样做，直到它不起作用为止。

And then, maybe we do something else.

然后，也许我们会做点别的事情。

But it's very much, I'm not on a path.

但这是非常多的，我没有走上一条路。

I can't see the path.

我看不到路。

I'm on a path.

我正在路上。

We're going somewhere.

我们要去某个地方。

I don't want to stand still.

我不想坐以待毙。

But I don't know where I'm going, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that.

但我不知道我要去哪里，但我对此感到非常满意。

Jason Fried: For me, it is really much about making it up as you go, based on, again, being in touch with how things feel to you, what your intuition is, what your gut tells you, what makes you happy.

杰森·弗里德：对我来说，真正重要的是边走边弥补，再次强调，了解你对事物的感受、你的直觉是什么、你的直觉告诉你什么、什么让你快乐。

What do you want to do?

你想让我做什么？

What can you do?

你能做什么？

Sometimes, it's things that make you happy and you can't do, just because life is what it is.

有时候，有些事情让你快乐，但你却做不到，因为生活就是这样。

So, understanding that and figuring out what the trade-offs are.

因此，了解这一点并弄清楚权衡是什么。

But really, it's figuring out as we go, and I think, frankly, it's the best way to run a business.

但实际上，我们正在不断摸索，坦率地说，我认为这是经营企业的最佳方式。

I think it's the healthiest, most honest way to run a business, which is, to figure it out as you go.

我认为这是最健康、最诚实的经营企业的方式，也就是说，边走边想办法。

Jason Fried: I think the further out you plan, the less you know about the decisions you're making.

杰森·弗里德：我认为你的计划越远，你对自己所做的决定就越了解。

And by the time you get there, you're probably going to be wrong, or you're going to want to do something else.

当你到达那里时，你可能会错，或者你会想做别的事情。

And then, if you're like, "Don't do those things," then what's the point of planning?

然后，如果你说“不要做那些事情”，那么计划还有什么意义呢？

People end up doing things they don't want to do because they said they were going to do them.

人们最终会做他们不想做的事情，因为他们说他们要做这些事情。

Obligations in the future, I think, are quite dangerous, and I think they send people down a path of unhappiness, actually.

我认为，未来的义务是相当危险的，而且我认为它们实际上会让人们走上一条不快乐的道路。

I think just staying closer to now is probably the best way to do that.

我认为，靠近现在可能是最好的方法。

Lenny: A lot of this trickles down from the biggest decision you made, which is, don't raise money, keep control of this business.

莱尼：很多都是从你做出的最重大的决定中滴下来的，那就是，不筹集资金，保持对这项业务的控制。

You're the boss.

你是老板。

There's no boss above you.

没有老板在你之上。

Jason Fried: Yeah, the independence.

杰森·弗里德：是的，独立。

If you go to 37signals.com, there's 37 ideas.

如果您访问 37signals.com，会发现 37 个想法。

And the first one, there's a 00, which is start here, which is like a read me.

第一个是 00，从这里开始，就像一个自述文件。

But 01 is independence.

但01是独立。

Independence is the root of all the things we're able to do, and we did make that intentional decision.

独立是我们能够做的所有事情的根源，我们确实做出了这个有意的决定。

We didn't know all the tentacles that come up from that and what it's going to impact and touch, but we knew principally, we want to be able to do what we want to do.

我们不知道由此产生的所有触角，也不知道它将影响和触及什么，但我们主要知道，我们希望能够做我们想做的事情。

Jason Fried: We want to be entrepreneurs and to me, that means working for yourself.

贾森·弗里德：我们想成为企业家，对我来说，这意味着为自己工作。

The moment you go out and take money or have these big obligations, you end up working for someone else.

一旦你出去拿钱或承担这些重大义务，你最终就会为别人工作。

I do understand why some companies do it, but I don't understand why a lot of people do it, who probably shouldn't do it.

我确实理解为什么有些公司这样做，但我不明白为什么很多人这样做，而他们可能不应该这样做。

I think staying independent is a wonderfully fulfilling experience, and it's very hard to do when you're beholden to someone else's timeframe and expectations.

我认为保持独立是一种非常充实的经历，当你受制于别人的时间框架和期望时，这是很难做到的。

Jason Fried: Another thing we rarely have here are expectations.

Jason Fried：我们很少有的另一件事是期望。

This is the point.

这就是重点。

We launch a new product, I don't know what's going to happen.

我们推出了一款新产品，我不知道会发生什么。

We launched Basecamp, I didn't know what was going to happen.

我们推出了 Basecamp，我不知道会发生什么。

We launched HEY, I didn't know what was going to happen.

我们推出了嘿，我不知道会发生什么。

We're going to launch some new stuff soon, I don't know what's going to happen.

我们很快就会推出一些新东西，我不知道会发生什么。

We don't say, "If this gets 20,000 users, then it's a success." I don't know.

我们不会说：“如果这能获得 20,000 个用户，那么它就是成功的。”我不知道。

We don't care.

我们不在乎。

It doesn't even matter.

这根本不重要。

Jason Fried: We're making it anyway, and we're going to see what's going to happen.

Jason Fried：无论如何我们都会成功，我们会看看会发生什么。

The market will tell us what happens.

市场会告诉我们会发生什么。

I'll just wait to find out.

我就等着瞧吧。

There's no sense in spending the time thinking about what could be.

花时间思考可能发生的事情是没有意义的。

Lenny: Just to push back, I imagine there are expectations of like, "I hope this works out.

莱尼：反驳一下，我想人们会有这样的期望，“我希望这能成功。

I hope people adopt it.

我希望人们采纳它。

I hope it becomes the best email client in town." There's a sense of like, "We want this to succeed"?

我希望它成为城里最好的电子邮件客户端。”有一种感觉，“我们希望这成功”？

Jason Fried: That's pride, though.

杰森·弗里德：不过，那是骄傲。

That's a matter of like, we want to be proud of the work that we did.

这就像我们希望为我们所做的工作感到自豪。

We really hope people like it, and we want to keep doing it.

我们真的希望人们喜欢它，我们想继续这样做。

To me, that's a sense of caring about the work itself.

对我来说，这就是一种关心工作本身的感觉。

It's not so much about the outcome, which you don't control as much as you might think.

重要的不是结果，你无法像你想象的那样控制结果。

Clearly, we want people to accept the work that we do and we want to find enough people who like it to make it sustainable, but I don't have them in mind.

显然，我们希望人们接受我们所做的工作，我们希望找到足够多喜欢它的人以使其可持续发展，但我并没有考虑到这些。

This is going to sound selfish, but I have me in mind first.

这听起来有点自私，但我首先考虑的是我自己。

Because if I'm not for me first, it's hard to be for someone else.

因为如果我首先不为自己着想，就很难为别人着想。

Jason Fried: I'm for us.

杰森·弗里德：我支持我们。

We want to make things that we're proud of, that we think are really good, that are unique, that brings something new to the world that doesn't exist, otherwise there's no point in doing it.

我们想要创造出让我们引以为豪的东西，那些我们认为真的很好的东西，那些独一无二的东西，那些给世界带来一些不存在的新东西的东西，否则就没有意义了。

That bring a different perspective that only we can provide because everyone has their own.

这带来了只有我们才能提供的不同视角，因为每个人都有自己的视角。

We want to make sure ours is very visible in the products that we make, which is why we approach things very differently than most, and our products are very different than most.

我们希望确保我们的产品在我们生产的产品中非常明显，这就是为什么我们的处理方式与大多数人截然不同，我们的产品也与大多数人截然不同。

That's why they should be there.

这就是为什么他们应该在那里。

We should provide alternatives.

我们应该提供替代方案。

Jason Fried: As I said earlier, I don't like the word competition, because it almost sounds like you could be making the same thing.

Jason Fried：正如我之前所说，我不喜欢“竞争”这个词，因为它听起来就像你可以做同样的事情。

I want to provide an alternative, which is a different approach, a different way forward.

我想提供一种替代方案，这是一种不同的方法，一种不同的前进方向。

It could be in pricing.

这可能是在定价方面。

It could be in the way something works.

这可能与某些事情的运作方式有关。

It could be in the flows in the thing.

它可能存在于事物的流动中。

It could be the entire conception of the thing, but it should be an alternative.

它可能是事物的整个概念，但它应该是一个替代方案。

If it's not an alternative, it doesn't need to exist.

如果它不是替代方案，那么它就不需要存在。

Anyway, that's how I think about it.

无论如何，我就是这么想的。

Jason Fried: But yeah, there are expectations.

杰森·弗里德：但是，是的，人们有期望。

Or I should say, maybe it's more like there are desires and hopes of acceptance to some degree, because it needs to.

或者我应该说，也许这更像是在某种程度上有被接受的欲望和希望，因为它需要这样做。

Otherwise, we can't stay in business.

否则，我们就无法继续营业。

But really, it's like, are we proud of it first?

但实际上，我们首先为此感到自豪吗？

We're wrapping up the HEY calendar right now, which is the calendar we're building for our HEY email service.

我们现在正在总结 HEY 日历，这是我们为 HEY 电子邮件服务构建的日历。

I'm really proud of it.

我真的很自豪。

I have no idea what's going to happen.

我不知道会发生什么。

It's very unusual.

这很不寻常。

But I'm really proud of the work that we did, and that's enough for me.

但我对我们所做的工作感到非常自豪，这对我来说就足够了。

Jason Fried: I think it's going to do well.

Jason Fried：我认为效果会很好。

I don't know, though, and it doesn't really make any sense to wonder if it will or not.

但我不知道，而且怀疑它是否会真的没有任何意义。

It just, it will or it won't.

只是，会或不会。

All I can do is, be proud of the work that we're doing and be proud of the people who are doing it, and feel like we're putting something out in the world that we think should be here.

我所能做的就是，为我们正在做的工作感到自豪，为正在做这件事的人感到自豪，并感觉我们正在向世界推出一些我们认为应该存在的东西。

Whether or not people agree is up to them.

人们是否同意取决于他们。

Lenny: You mentioned the principles of the company and I was going to touch on one of these actually.

莱尼：你提到了公司的原则，我实际上想谈谈其中之一。

What's the URL to check these out?

查看这些内容的网址是什么？

By the way, we'll link to it in the show notes.

顺便说一句，我们将在演出笔记中链接到它。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Right, just the homepage?

对吧，只是主页？

Jason Fried: Yeah.

杰森·弗里德：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

The homepage, yeah.

主页，是的。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

One of them is, work isn't war.

其中之一是，工作不是战争。

You wrote a book about this roughly, about Work Doesn't Have to Suck, but I guess, can you just talk about why war work feels like war, and then what maybe people could do to make it feel less like war?

你粗略地写了一本关于这个问题的书，关于《工作并不一定很糟糕》，但我想，你能谈谈为什么战争工作感觉像战争，然后人们可以做些什么来让它感觉不那么像战争吗？

Jason Fried: This is about words in a lot of ways.

杰森·弗里德：这在很多方面都与文字有关。

I'm not looking at the page right now.

我现在不看页面。

I could pull it up and read it, but essentially, a lot of work uses war metaphors.

我可以把它拿出来读，但本质上，很多作品都使用战争隐喻。

You're targeting customers.

你的目标是客户。

You are conquering a market.

你正在征服一个市场。

Gosh, now I really want to make sure I get all these right.

天哪，现在我真的想确保我把所有这些都做对了。

Hang on, I'm just going to look this up.

等一下，我只是去看看这个。

Because these things are how people talk about work.

因为这些都是人们谈论工作的方式。

It says, "They conquer the market.

它说：“他们征服了市场。

They capture mindshare.

他们抓住了人们的注意力。

They target customers.

他们瞄准客户。

They employ a sales force.

他们雇用了一支销售队伍。

They hire head hunters.

他们聘请猎头。

They destroy the competition.

他们破坏了竞争。

They pick battles and they make a killing."

他们选择战斗并大肆杀戮。”

Jason Fried: That's how people talk about business.

Jason Fried：人们就是这样谈论生意的。

I find that to be depressing.

我觉得这很令人沮丧。

It just feels depressing to me.

我只是觉得很沮丧。

We use words to establish a perspective in a way of thinking about the world.

我们使用文字来建立思考世界的视角。

And if those are the words that are in your head, then you feel like it's this war.

如果你脑子里浮现出这些话，那么你就会觉得这是一场战争。

This is the other thing.

这是另一回事。

People are always like, "What do the Navy SEALs do?" And they're like, "Heck, yeah." That's the Navy SEALs, man.

人们总是问，“海豹突击队是做什么的？”他们就像，“哎呀，是的。”那是海豹突击队，伙计。

It's not your software business.

这不是你的软件业务。

Why are we always looking to Navy SEALs to tell us how to run our business?

为什么我们总是期待海豹突击队告诉我们如何经营我们的业务？

"The military, they've got a group of eight and they do these."

“军队，他们有一个八人小组，他们做这些事情。”

Jason Fried: It's like, "Yeah, okay, that's that context." Can we not look at that for a second about ...

杰森·弗里德：就像，“是的，好吧，这就是背景。”我们能不能先看一下这个……

That's amazing.

太棒了。

What they do is amazing, obviously, but what you're doing is you're making B2B accounting software.

显然，他们所做的事情令人惊叹，但你所做的是开发 B2B 会计软件。

Let's just chill for a second here, okay?

让我们在这里冷静一下，好吗？

I like to think of words that are more additive and alternative.

我喜欢思考更具附加性和替代性的词语。

" We can exist.

“我们可以存在。

Let's exist.

让我们存在吧。

Let's make something great." Not, "Let's beat them, let's conquer them, let's make a killing." Let's just make something great.

让我们做出一些伟大的事情吧。”不是“让我们打败他们，让我们征服他们，让我们大赚一笔”。让我们做一些伟大的事情吧。

I think that matters, and it changes the way you think about the work that you do.

我认为这很重要，它改变了你对所做工作的看法。

Jason Fried: It's more about pride and excitement and a spirit of creation than it is destruction.

杰森·弗里德（Jason Fried）：更多的是自豪感、兴奋感和创造精神，而不是破坏。

I think if you go into it with destruction in mind, you're going to end up in a pretty dark place.

我认为如果你一心想着破坏，你最终会陷入一个非常黑暗的地方。

That's our point of view.

这就是我们的观点。

Lenny: Awesome, I love that.

莱尼：太棒了，我喜欢这个。

Coming back to this bootstrap path, there's a lot to love about it.

回到这条引导路径，它有很多值得喜爱的地方。

Independence, with that trickles down all these things that you're able to do with your company that other companies aren't able to.

独立性，随之而来的是你可以与你的公司做其他公司无法做的所有事情。

Lenny: For someone that's thinking about going down this path and wants to bootstrap their company, that doesn't have a lot of money because it takes cash to start a business, do you have any advice for just how to get started down this path?

莱尼：对于那些正在考虑走这条路并想要启动自己的公司的人来说，他们没有很多钱，因为开办企业需要现金，您对如何开始走这条路有什么建议吗？

Jason Fried: Yeah.

杰森·弗里德：是的。

First of all, it's hard.

首先，这很难。

This is hard.

这很难。

When you have nothing, especially, it depends where you are in your life, too.

尤其是当你一无所有的时候，这也取决于你在生活中所处的位置。

You may have a couple of kids and you don't have a lot of time, and you got to pay mortgage.

你可能有几个孩子，你没有很多时间，而且你还必须支付抵押贷款。

It's tough, so this is hard, but it's the reality for almost every business in the world that starts.

这很难，所以这很难，但对于世界上几乎所有刚起步的企业来说，这都是现实。

The best advice I could give you is, and this sounds so trite, but really it's true, is, stay as small as you can for as long as you can.

我能给你的最好建议是，这听起来很老套，但确实是真的，那就是，尽可能长时间地保持尽可能小的规模。

The only thing you can really control are your costs.

您唯一真正可以控制的是您的成本。

You can't control the alternatives in the market.

您无法控制市场上的替代品。

The competition, you can't control them.

竞争，你无法控制他们。

You can't determine the market itself.

你无法决定市场本身。

You can't control the economy.

你无法控制经济。

You can't control how much advertising costs, but you control your own costs.

你无法控制广告费用的多少，但你可以控制自己的成本。

Jason Fried: The other thing I would encourage people to do is, figure out how to do as much as they can on their own before they bring on a second person.

贾森·弗里德：我鼓励人们做的另一件事是，在聘请第二个人之前，弄清楚如何自己尽可能多地做事。

Really work and struggle through something on your own.

真正靠自己努力和奋斗。

The moment you bring on someone else, you've got another mouth to feed.

当你招惹别人的时候，你就又多了一张嘴要喂。

It becomes expensive.

它变得昂贵。

You got another personality to deal with the more you rely on them.

你越依赖他们，你就会有另一种性格来应对。

And if they turn out to be the wrong person, you have to lose them.

如果事实证明他们是错误的人，你就必须失去他们。

You don't have anyone to do the work that now you have them doing, and now you've got to do it.

你没有人做现在让他们做的工作，现在你必须做。

You're not going to be any good at it.

你不会有任何擅长的。

You got to start as small as you possibly can and do as much of the work yourself as you possibly can.

你必须从小事做起，并尽可能自己做更多的工作。

Jason Fried: Keep your costs in check.

Jason Fried：控制成本。

Don't spend any money on branding.

不要花任何钱在品牌上。

Don't go get an office.

不用去找办公室。

Don't spend anything on anything, basically, except the tool you use.

基本上，除了您使用的工具之外，不要在任何东西上花费任何钱。

Let's say, it's your laptop or whatever you're going to use.

假设这是您的笔记本电脑或您将要使用的任何设备。

Get a good one.

买一件好的。

They don't cost much anymore.

它们不再花费太多了。

1,500 bucks or something like that, you can get a really nice MacBook Air or whatever.

1,500 美元或类似的东西，你可以得到一台非常好的 MacBook Air 或其他什么。

You need an internet connection and maybe you need a host somewhere or whatever, but use Squarespace to set up your site for 15 bucks a month or whatever.

你需要一个互联网连接，也许你需要一个主机或其他什么，但使用 Squarespace 来设置你的网站，每月 15 美元或其他。

Don't go hire a web designer.

不要去聘请网页设计师。

Find all the efficiencies and keep your costs incredibly low, and don't make things hard on yourself.

找到所有的效率并将成本保持在极低的水平，并且不要让自己变得困难。

Jason Fried: This is the other thing that all businesses at every stage need to keep in mind.

Jason Fried：这是每个阶段的所有企业都需要牢记的另一件事。

While it's hard, things are relatively simple until you make them complicated.

虽然这很困难，但在你把事情变得复杂之前，事情都是相对简单的。

Simple can also be hard, but complicated is a lot harder.

简单也可能很难，但复杂则更难。

I think Brian Chesky had a really good bit on this, I think, on your podcast about how companies get complicated.

我认为布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）在关于公司如何变得复杂的播客中对此做了很好的阐述。

And I loved that.

我喜欢这样。

When I was hearing it, I kept hearing this unfolding, this complex shape that you almost can't fold back.

当我听到它时，我不断听到这种展开的声音，这种复杂的形状，你几乎无法折叠起来。

It's so complicated now that you don't even see where it came from.

现在事情太复杂了，你甚至不知道它是从哪里来的。

Now, it is what it is and you can't put it back in the bottle.

现在，它就是这样，你不能把它放回瓶子里。

It's just a mess, right?

这只是一团糟，对吧？

This happens really quickly and it can happen at a small scale, too.

这种情况发生得非常快，而且也可能小规模发生。

These are a bunch of things, and none of this is to say it's going to work.

这些都是一堆事情，但这些都不是说它会起作用。

You could follow all those things and it could just completely fall apart.

你可以遵循所有这些事情，但它可能会完全崩溃。

And it probably will.

它可能会的。

It's just the reality.

这就是现实。

I think something we use at 37signals, David taught me this, it's really a stoic thing, which is just the idea of negative visualization.

我认为我们在 37signals 使用的东西，大卫教我的，这确实是一个坚忍的事情，这只是消极可视化的想法。

What's the worst that can happen?

可能发生的最坏情况是什么？

You got to be at peace with the worst that can happen.

你必须坦然面对可能发生的最坏情况。

Just role-play that and go, "What's the worst?" For example, we're doing these new ONCE products.

只需进行角色扮演，然后问“最糟糕的是什么？”例如，我们正在做这些新的 ONCE 产品。

What's the worst that can happen?

可能发生的最坏情况是什么？

Well, the ONCE model is totally different.

嗯，ONCE 模型完全不同。

It's not SaaS.

这不是 SaaS。

It's you pay once, you download the software.

您只需付费一次，即可下载软件。

You install on your own server.

您安装在自己的服务器上。

Jason Fried: We're putting a lot of effort into this.

Jason Fried：我们为此付出了很多努力。

This could be the wrong time to do it.

这可能是错误的时机。

It could be a total flop.

这可能会彻底失败。

This could not find any traction on the market.

这在市场上找不到任何吸引力。

What's the worst that can happen?

可能发生的最坏情况是什么？

Well, we spent six months exploring something and having a really good time doing it.

嗯，我们花了六个月的时间探索一些东西，并且玩得很开心。

Our margins are there, so we can do it.

我们有利润，所以我们可以做到。

I wouldn't suggest someone does this if they can't afford to do it.

如果他们负担不起，我不会建议有人这样做。

But we know this might not work, and we're already at peace with the fact that this might not work.

但我们知道这可能行不通，而且我们已经接受了这可能行不通的事实。

That's, I think, how you ultimately are able to move forward, is to be at peace with knowing what's going to happen if it doesn't work out.

我认为，这就是你最终能够继续前进的方式，就是坦然地知道如果事情不成功将会发生什么。

Lenny: I want to touch on Linear.

Lenny：我想谈谈 Linear。

One, it's interesting that you guys have a lot of similar philosophies.

第一，有趣的是你们有很多相似的哲学。

What is it about project management, task management software that creates this sort of approach to business?

项目管理、任务管理软件是什么创造了这种业务方法？

That's maybe one question, if there's something there.

如果那里有什么的话，这可能是一个问题。

Lenny: And then, the other is, it feels like they have a lot of similar philosophies.

莱尼：然后，另一个是，感觉他们有很多相似的理念。

Growth isn't a focus.

增长不是重点。

It's gut and instinct.

这是直觉和本能。

They have paid work trials.

他们已经支付了工作试用费。

They're profitable.

他们是有利可图的。

They don't spend a lot of time around VC money.

他们不会花很多时间在风险投资上。

Lenny: Do you have a feeling like this approach could work in the venture route?

Lenny：你觉得这种方法可以在风险投资中发挥作用吗？

And do you see them as maybe an example of like, "Hey, maybe we could adopt a lot of these things and also raise money?" Maybe there's another direction here?

你是否认为它们是一个例子，“嘿，也许我们可以采用很多这样的东西并筹集资金？”也许这里还有另一个方向？

Jason Fried: Yeah.

杰森·弗里德：是的。

I can tell you I don't know enough about them to comment on their ...

我可以告诉你我对他们了解不够，无法评论他们的......

I've heard some about them and it sounds like they have some similar points of view.

我听说过一些关于他们的事情，听起来他们有一些相似的观点。

Where those came from, I don't know.

这些是从哪里来的，我不知道。

Maybe they materialized out of nowhere.

也许它们凭空出现。

Maybe they picked them up from someone else.

也许他们是从别人那里捡来的。

Maybe they came up with them themselves.

也许他们自己想出来了。

Lots of different ways to work.

有很多不同的工作方式。

It's nice to hear that other people are trying some of these things and it's working for them, so that's great.

很高兴听到其他人正在尝试其中的一些事情并且它对他们有用，所以这很棒。

Jason Fried: The thing with the VC route, so the idea of having too much money, it doesn't mean you can't work efficiently and thoughtfully.

Jason Fried：走VC路线的东西，所以有太多钱的想法，并不意味着你不能高效、深思熟虑地工作。

But it does create a degree of sloppiness, because you don't have to.

但它确实会造成一定程度的草率，因为你没有必要这样做。

When you don't have to, and when I'm saying have to, you could say have to what?

当你不必这样做时，当我说必须这样做时，你可以说必须做什么？

Have to do a whole bunch of things.

必须做一大堆事情。

When you don't have to, we don't have to make money, when you don't have to be efficient, when you don't have to be profitable, you just get sloppy.

当你不需要的时候，我们不需要赚钱，当你不需要高效的时候，当你不需要盈利的时候，你就会变得马虎。

Jason Fried: "Let's hire some more people.

杰森·弗里德：“我们再雇一些人吧。

Whatever, we can afford to.

无论如何，我们负担得起。

In fact, they need us to spend the money, by the way.

事实上，顺便说一句，他们需要我们花钱。

They didn't give us the money to save it and earn 6% interest." Which would be great now.

他们没有给我们钱来存钱并赚取 6% 的利息。”现在就太好了。

Three years ago, 0% interest.

三年前，0%利息。

"They didn't give us the money to sit in the bank.

“他们没有给我们钱去银行存钱。

They gave us the money to spend the money." What are you going to spend it on?

他们给了我们钱让我们花这些钱。”你打算把它花在什么地方？

Two things, people and marketing.

两件事，人和营销。

Basically, that's what you spend it on.

基本上，这就是你花的钱。

Jason Fried: We can buy more ads.

Jason Fried：我们可以购买更多广告。

We can do more of this.

我们可以在这方面做得更多。

We're going to do that.

我们将这样做。

We can hire some more people, build up more teams, do more things simultaneously.

我们可以雇佣更多的人，建立更多的团队，同时做更多的事情。

There's a certain sloppiness in that.

这其中有一定的草率。

I think it just becomes harder when the environment encourages slop, which is why I think the value in bootstrapping is that it teaches entrepreneurs, it not even teaches, it forces them to have to figure out how to make money.

我认为，当环境鼓励随波逐流时，事情就会变得更加困难，这就是为什么我认为自力更生的价值在于它教导企业家，它甚至不是教导，它迫使他们必须弄清楚如何赚钱。

The more time under the curve they have making money and practicing making money, the better at it they're going to get.

他们在曲线下赚钱和练习赚钱的时间越多，他们就会做得越好。

Jason Fried: I used the guitar metaphor a bit earlier, I'll use it again.

Jason Fried：我之前用过吉他的比喻，我会再次使用它。

If you're playing guitar, if I give you a guitar and ask you to go up on stage and play guitar, you're going to suck.

如果你弹吉他，如果我给你一把吉他并要求你上台弹吉他，你就会很糟糕。

It's going to be horribly embarrassing and you're going to be terrible at it.

这会非常尴尬，而且你会表现得很糟糕。

You might be terrible at it a month later, but you'll be slightly better at it.

一个月后你可能会表现得很糟糕，但你会稍微好一点。

You do it for six months or a year, you're going to be better and better.

你这样做六个月或一年，你会变得越来越好。

And then, five years and you're really getting good.

然后，五年后，你真的变得越来越好。

Why do we think that a business that is sloppy, that doesn't have to make their own money, that is just getting pumped full of money by somebody else, can all of a sudden turn on the profit spigot and all of a sudden be profitable?

为什么我们认为一个草率的企业，不需要自己赚钱，只是被别人灌满钱，可以突然打开利润龙头并突然盈利？

Jason Fried: What you see is that they oftentimes cannot because they're just not set up to be that way.

贾森·弗里德（Jason Fried）：你看到的是，他们常常做不到，因为他们根本就没有这样做。

They've never played guitar before, and now they're being asked to play guitar.

他们以前从未弹过吉他，现在他们被要求弹吉他。

The reason I think it's great for entrepreneurs to start bootstrapping is because they just have more practice making money.

我认为企业家开始自力更生是件好事，因为他们有更多赚钱的练习。

They get better and better and better at the fundamental skill you need to have ultimately to run a successful business, which is to make money.

他们在经营成功企业最终所需的基本技能（即赚钱）方面变得越来越好。

If you don't have to do that from the start, you're just not practicing that.

如果你从一开始就不需要这样做，那么你只是没有练习。

You're practicing spending money.

你正在练习花钱。

Jason Fried: Getting good at spending money is not a valuable skill as getting good at making money.

杰森·弗里德：善于花钱并不像善于赚钱一样有价值。

That's why I think it's just harder.

这就是为什么我认为这更难。

But, of course, it's possible.

但是，当然，这是可能的。

It's just harder.

只是更难了。

Lenny: What I'm hearing is, essentially, to do this well.

莱尼：我听到的本质上是要做好这件事。

You need discipline.

你需要纪律。

Understand, here's the incentives they're driving me to; spend more money, grow faster, and being really good at not ...

明白了，这就是他们促使我去做的激励措施；花更多的钱，成长得更快，并且真正擅长不......

And then, also, it sounds like you just need investors that are on board with ...

然后，听起来你只需要同意的投资者......

"We understand.

“我们明白。

We're not going to focus on growth obsession.

我们不会专注于增长的痴迷。

We're not going to focus on getting new teams.

我们不会专注于组建新团队。

We're going to give you space to build it the way you want."

我们将为您提供空间，让您按照自己想要的方式建造它。”

Jason Fried: That exists.

杰森·弗里德：那是存在的。

It's just also an outlier in that industry.

它也是该行业的一个异类。

I think what you need are constraints, is what I'm actually trying to get at.

我认为你需要的是约束，这正是我实际上想要达到的目标。

You need constraints.

你需要约束。

When you have just loads of money, you basically have very few constraints.

当你只有大量的钱时，你基本上没有什么限制。

That's what tends to lead to slop.

这就是容易导致溢出的原因。

Versus like, "Hey, if we don't figure this out, we can't make payroll next week or next month." You just start to figure things out.

相反，“嘿，如果我们不解决这个问题，我们下周或下个月就无法发放工资。”你才刚刚开始弄清楚事情。

One of the best stories I heard about this was Peter Rahal, who started RXBAR.

我听过的最好的故事之一是 Peter Rahal，他创办了 RXBAR。

Are you familiar with RXBAR?

你熟悉RXBAR吗？

Jason Fried: Yeah, little protein bars or whatever.

杰森·弗里德：是的，一点蛋白质棒之类的。

There's a great article about this years ago, where he was talking to his dad about, I think, raising money or something.

几年前有一篇很棒的文章，我想他当时正在和他爸爸谈论筹集资金之类的事情。

His dad's like, "Hey, go sell 1,000 fucking bars and come back and talk to me." He's like, "Just sell some fucking bar.

他爸爸说，“嘿，去卖掉他妈的 1000 块金条，然后回来跟我谈谈。”他就像是，“就卖掉一些该死的酒吧吧。

Get out on the street and sell some bars, man.

到街上去卖点酒吧吧，伙计。

You've got products?

你有产品吗？

Sell products.

销售产品。

Go, sell." Versus all the things you could possibly do.

走吧，卖吧。”与你可能做的所有事情相比。

"Go sell some bars." It's just such great advice and it just cuts through all the crap.

“去卖一些金条吧。”这真是一个很好的建议，它消除了所有的废话。

I like that scrappiness, and you don't get scrappiness from having large S.

我喜欢这种斗志旺盛的感觉，而且你不会因为拥有大S而变得斗志旺盛。

You just don't.

你只是不这样做。

It's just too easy not to have to do anything.

不需要做任何事太容易了。

Jason Fried: Not to say that VC companies aren't doing things.

Jason Fried：并不是说风险投资公司不做事。

They're doing a lot of things, obviously, but are they honing the scrappy skills?

显然，他们做了很多事情，但他们是否正在磨练斗志旺盛的技能？

Are they learning how to make money and have margin and be profitable?

他们是否正在学习如何赚钱、如何获得利润并实现盈利？

If they don't have to, they probably are not.

如果他们不需要，他们可能就不会。

I think at some point, and we're starting to see this now, this is not like an I-told-you-so thing, this is just, this is what happens.

我认为在某个时候，我们现在开始看到这一点，这不像是我告诉过你的事情，这只是，这就是发生的事情。

This is not me.

这不是我。

This is just economic cycles.

这只是经济周期。

Money's harder to find, it's harder to get.

钱更难找，更难得到。

Even companies who've raised money, investors are not necessarily putting in additional rounds.

即使公司已经筹集了资金，投资者也不一定会进行额外的融资。

There's deep cuts happening, layoffs, pain and suffering.

大量的裁员、裁员、痛苦和磨难正在发生。

Jason Fried: It's hard to switch from having a lot to not having enough, and then having to work as if you know what to do.

贾森·弗里德：从拥有很多转变为拥有不足，然后必须像你知道该做什么一样工作，这是很困难的。

I think there's a lot of confusion in the market now, at companies now, I should say, because they don't know what to do.

我认为现在的市场、公司现在有很多混乱，我应该说，因为他们不知道该怎么做。

They haven't had to do it before.

他们以前不必这样做。

I feel for them in a sense because, how could they be expected to know what to do?

从某种意义上说，我同情他们，因为他们怎么能知道该怎么做呢？

Just frankly, as I said earlier, if someone dropped 10 million bucks on me and 1,000 people, I would have no idea what to do with that.

坦率地说，正如我之前所说，如果有人向我和 1000 个人扔 1000 万美元，我将不知道该怎么办。

Truly, I would not.

真的，我不会。

I would waste it is what I would do.

我会浪费它，这就是我会做的。

If you don't have the experience, how are you going to know?

如果你没有经验，你怎么知道？

Lenny: I'm the same way with the newsletter and the podcast.

莱尼：我对时事通讯和播客也有同样的看法。

There's no way I can grow this thing with money, really.

真的，我不可能用钱来种植这个东西。

I've tried a bunch of little experiments and nothing really does anything.

我尝试了很多小实验，但没有任何效果。

It actually comes back to, let me find this quote that you have of just your business strategy in a nutshell.

实际上，让我找到这句话，简而言之，您只是引用了您的业务策略。

"Just keep making great shit.

“继续创造伟大的狗屎吧。

Keep your cost in check.

控制您的成本。

Charge appropriate prices for your work.

为您的工作收取适当的价格。

Share as much as you can and let the chips fall where they may."

尽可能多地分享，让事情顺其自然。”

Jason Fried: That's basically it.

杰森·弗里德：基本上就是这样。

One of the things I don't think I said in there was, enjoy it.

我认为我没有在其中说过的一件事是，享受它。

Have fun.

玩得开心。

Enjoy the ride.

享受旅程。

Love who you're working with and create a great environment to do great work, and so other people can do great work and thrive as well.

热爱与你一起工作的人，创造一个良好的环境来完成出色的工作，这样其他人也可以完成出色的工作并蓬勃发展。

That's all baked into that.

这一切都融入其中。

It's not like, set targets.

这不像设定目标。

It's not, try to be a billion-dollar business.

不是的，努力成为一个价值十亿美元的企业。

It's not, aim for an exit.

不是，目标是退出。

It's not, be on the cover of whatever.

不是，无论什么都可以上封面。

It's not many of those things.

这些事情并不多。

Jason Fried: Maybe it's the Midwesterness in me, growing up in Chicago.

杰森·弗里德：也许这就是我在芝加哥长大的中西部风情。

I don't know.

我不知道。

It's just that.

就是这样。

The best business advice I ever got, I got from my dad.

我从父亲那里得到的最好的商业建议。

It's just a simple line.

这只是一条简单的线。

It's like, "No one ever went broke making a profit." And maybe that's just my guiding light, ultimately.

这就像“没有人为了盈利而破产”。也许这最终只是我的指路明灯。

It's like, because you can go broke generating a lot of revenue.

就像，因为你可能会破产并产生大量收入。

A lot of companies do.

很多公司都这样做。

But you can't go broke generating a profit, and I think it's just really tight.

但你不可能在破产的情况下赚取利润，而且我认为利润非常紧张。

Lenny: What a great quote.

莱尼： 多么好的引言啊。

Final question before we get to our very exciting lightning round.

在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，最后一个问题是。

Let's talk about ONCE.

我们来谈谈ONCE。

This is a new product/umbrella of products you're developing.

这是您正在开发的新产品/产品组合。

Can you just talk about the thinking here?

您能简单谈谈这里的想法吗？

And then, I think you guys are announcing the actual first product within this umbrella?

然后，我认为你们正在宣布这个保护伞中的第一个产品？

Jason Fried: Yeah.

杰森·弗里德：是的。

The idea behind ONCE is, David and I feel like, we're probably a bit early here, but we feel like there's going to be a bit of a turn back towards the way things were.

ONCE 背后的想法是，大卫和我觉得，我们可能还为时过早，但我们觉得事情会有点回到原来的样子。

Pendulums always swing.

钟摆总是摆动的。

And for the last decade or so, SaaS has been pretty much the only way to run business software.

在过去十年左右的时间里，SaaS 几乎是运行商业软件的唯一方式。

Basically, you rent it.

基本上，你租它。

There's really not a lot of alternatives.

确实没有太多选择。

You rent software.

您租用软件。

We think that there's subscription fatigue and also some benefits to that, for sure, but there's also a lot of downsides just to ...

我们认为订阅疲劳确实存在，当然也有一些好处，但也有很多缺点......

Jason Fried: ...

杰森·弗里德：……

that, for sure, but there's also a lot of downsides to subscription software.

这是肯定的，但订阅软件也有很多缺点。

You keep paying the same amount every month for the thing that you had last month.

您每个月都会为上个月拥有的东西支付相同的金额。

It's not like a magazine where every month you get literally a new issue.

它不像杂志那样每个月都会有新一期。

So that's new.

所以这是新的。

I'm paying for new weekly or monthly, okay, that makes sense.

我每周或每月支付新的费用，好吧，这是有道理的。

I mean, I know there's new stuff that comes out in software products but let's face it, the core of the thing that you're using, 90% of the time is the thing you've been paying for four years now, every month.

我的意思是，我知道软件产品中出现了新的东西，但让我们面对现实吧，你正在使用的东西的核心，90% 的时间是你四年来每月支付的东西。

It just seems like, nah.

看起来只是，不。

So we are going to launch this thing called Once, which is essentially a brand and umbrella, a line, a product line of non-SaaS products, of products, not services, things people will download, software business offer products, people will download, pay for once and then install on their own server or a shared server or in the cloud, their own cloud or whatever.

因此，我们将推出这个名为“Once”的东西，它本质上是一个品牌和保护伞，一条产品线，一条非 SaaS 产品的产品线，是产品，而不是服务，人们会下载的东西，软件业务提供产品，人们会下载，支付一次，然后安装在他们自己的服务器或共享服务器或云中，他们自己的云或其他什么地方。

Jason Fried: But they'll run it, they'll manage it, they'll pay for it once and there's no subscription fees, no recurring fees.

杰森·弗里德：但他们会运行它，他们会管理它，他们会支付一次费用，并且没有订阅费，没有经常性费用。

They get updates, they get support and some of that stuff, but that's it.

他们得到更新，得到支持等等，但仅此而已。

And so we're going to launch the first one shortly here and then we plan on doing, hopefully, maybe three more next year.

因此，我们将很快在这里推出第一个，然后我们计划明年再推出三个。

And the beauty of these things is that what we're basically doing is we're going out in the market and looking at it, although we already know it because we've been in this world.

这些事情的美妙之处在于，我们基本上所做的就是走进市场并观察它，尽管我们已经知道这一点，因为我们已经来到这个世界了。

But we're saying, what are the commodities out there?

但我们要问的是，那里有哪些商品？

There are a lot of commodities in business software and there's like 50 alternatives and they're kind of all sort of the same yet they're all still charging luxury prices.

商业软件中有很多商品，大约有 50 种替代品，它们都有点相同，但它们仍然收取奢侈的价格。

In my opinion, if you're paying tens or hundreds of dollars a month or in some cases, thousands of dollars a month, month after month after month after month after month for when there's hundreds of alternatives and there's no price differentiation really between them, that's an opportunity.

在我看来，如果你每月支付数十或数百美元，或者在某些情况下，每月支付数千美元，月复一月，月复一月，因为有数百种替代品，而且它们之间实际上没有价格差异，那就是一个机会。

In every other industry, there's generic peanut butter, there's generic pencils, there's generic everything in a sense.

在其他所有行业中，都有通用的花生酱，有通用的铅笔，从某种意义上来说，所有的东西都是通用的。

Jason Fried: So we're out there looking for commodities that are still charging luxury prices that we can create really beautifully tight, simple, essential generics of very high quality that don't do everything that the other products do, but get the core of it right, the 80-20, we get that right at a high degree of quality.

Jason Fried：所以我们正在寻找那些仍然收取奢侈品价格的商品，我们可以创造出真正精美、紧凑、简单、高质量的基本仿制药，这些仿制药并不具备其他产品所做的一切，但要正确地抓住它的核心，80-20，我们以高质量来实现这一点。

And we can build these in typically three months each with two people.

我们通常可以在三个月内用两个人建造这些。

And the maintenance cost is zero to us, essentially.

对我们来说，维护成本基本上为零。

There's no marginal cost here because we make the software and we sell it and we don't have to maintain it in terms of hosting and the whole thing, which is what the expensive part of SaaS is.

这里没有边际成本，因为我们制造软件并出售它，我们不需要在托管和整个事情方面维护它，这就是 SaaS 的昂贵部分。

So anyway, that's the idea behind Once.

无论如何，这就是 Once 背后的想法。

And we, again, don't know what the market's going to think.

我们再次不知道市场会怎么想。

I have no idea but we're really excited about trying this and seeing what happens.

我不知道，但我们真的很兴奋尝试这个并看看会发生什么。

Lenny: And then could you talk about the first thing you're launching or is that not out?

莱尼：那么您能谈谈您正在推出的第一款产品吗？还是尚未推出的产品？

Jason Fried: Yeah, sure.

杰森·弗里德：是的，当然。

The first product we're going to be launching is basically an old product that we made way, way, way back when.

我们要推出的第一个产品基本上是我们很久以前制造的旧产品。

So years and years and years ago, 2006, we launched a product called Campfire, which was-

所以很多年很多年前，2006 年，我们推出了一款名为 Campfire 的产品，它是——

Lenny: How could you not remember Campfire?

莱尼：你怎么会不记得篝火呢？

Jason Fried: ...

杰森·弗里德：……

22 and they don't know, understandably so.

22 他们不知道，这是可以理解的。

But if you've been around, maybe you remember Campfire, which was a group chat tool, which is I think eight years before Slack came out or something like that.

但如果你曾经使用过，也许你还记得 Campfire，它是一个群聊工具，我认为这是 Slack 或类似工具问世的八年前。

So it was really early and it was really hard to get people to even understand what this thing was, and a lot of people didn't get it.

所以当时还很早，很难让人们理解这个东西是什么，很多人都不明白。

And then Slack came out, of course, and steamrolled it and really, really executed beautifully and did a great job.

然后 Slack 就出来了，当然，它的表现非常非常出色，而且做得非常出色。

But chat has become a commodity.

但聊天已经成为一种商品。

There are a million ways to chat with people now, and in the business realm, they're all still quite expensive and they're all month to month to month.

现在有一百万种与人聊天的方式，而在商业领域，它们仍然相当昂贵，而且都是按月收费。

You got Slack, you got Teams, and you've got a few others and it's like, you know what...

你有 Slack，你有 Teams，还有其他一些，就像，你知道什么......

And there are some open-source alternatives, by the way, that are free or cheap.

顺便说一下，还有一些免费或廉价的开源替代品。

But we want to put something back out there.

但我们想把一些东西放回那里。

Jason Fried: So we're going to relaunch Campfire under the Once brand.

Jason Fried：所以我们将以 Once 品牌重新推出 Campfire。

You'll pay for it once, you'll install on your own servers, and you'll run it.

您只需支付一次费用，您将安装在您自己的服务器上，然后运行它。

And it'll do 90% of the things that you want to do every day and these other chat tools and do them very, very well and very, very simply and very, very easily.

它会做你每天想做的 90% 的事情以及其他聊天工具，而且做得非常非常好、非常非常简单、非常非常容易。

And we think it's going to be really interesting.

我们认为这将会非常有趣。

And by the way, the other thing we're thinking about with these Once products, which is interesting, just get to this alternative point of view, is that these don't necessarily need to replace things.

顺便说一句，我们正在考虑这些“Once”产品的另一件事，这很有趣，只要从这个替代的角度来看，这些产品不一定需要取代某些东西。

They can be in addition to.

它们可以是另外的。

You might still run Slack at your company but you want to back up for when Slack goes down, or you want a special air-gapped chat for your executive team that cannot be leaked by another company where you're hosting data or having other people involved that might have access to it by accident.

您可能仍在公司中运行 Slack，但您希望在 Slack 出现故障时进行备份，或者您希望为您的执行团队提供特殊的隔离聊天，而该聊天不会被您托管数据或涉及其他可能意外访问该数据的其他公司泄露。

Jason Fried: You can run things, you can have different tools doing similar things but for different groups in different contexts.

Jason Fried：你可以运行一些东西，你可以使用不同的工具来做类似的事情，但是针对不同环境中的不同群体。

Now, you probably wouldn't want to pay month to month to month to month to month for a backup system when something almost never goes down, but if you only have to pay for it once, it might be really...

现在，当某些东西几乎永远不会出现故障时，您可能不想每月为备份系统付费，但如果您只需支付一次，那可能真的......

that's a good thing to have.

这是一件好事。

That's an insurance policy to pay for it once and we just have it in our back pocket.

这是一次性支付的保险单，我们只是把它放在我们的后口袋里。

The other thing we're doing with Once product is that you get the code.

我们对 Once 产品所做的另一件事是让您获得代码。

And so if you're a product team and you're curious to see how this product was built, and we've gone to great lengths to make it exceptionally well-built for this purpose, this is a book, essentially, of how to build this kind of thing really, really, really well on the CSS on the HTML and the Ruby on Rails side, for example.

因此，如果您是一个产品团队，并且您很好奇这个产品是如何构建的，并且我们已经竭尽全力使它为此目的而构建得非常好，那么这本书本质上是一本关于如何在 HTML 和 Ruby on Rails 方面的 CSS 上真正、真正、真正很好地构建这种东西的书。

Jason Fried: So you'll get all the code and you can look at it and you can modify it, you can play with it and you can tweak it.

Jason Fried：所以你会得到所有的代码，你可以查看它，你可以修改它，你可以使用它，你可以调整它。

You can't resell it.

你不能转售它。

There's a certain licensing but it's yours.

有一定的许可，但它是你的。

And so if you want to change the layout, go ahead.

因此，如果您想更改布局，请继续。

If you want to add some features, go ahead.

如果您想添加一些功能，请继续。

If you want to mess around, go ahead, it's yours.

如果你想乱来，那就去吧，这是你的。

And that's another thing that's really novel.

这是另一件真正新颖的事情。

You don't get that in subscription software.

您在订阅软件中无法获得这一点。

So there's a lot of things going on that we're trying.

所以我们正在尝试很多事情。

There's some other really cool stuff.

还有其他一些非常酷的东西。

I'll tell you, one more quick thing about it is that we're trying to make this first prompt especially have as few words as possible, maybe 30 words.

我会告诉你，关于它的一个更快速的事情是，我们正在努力使第一个提示尤其具有尽可能少的单词，也许 30 个单词。

So we're picking tools that are...

所以我们选择的工具是......

or picking categories that people already know how to use, and so we're trying to keep as many words out of this as possible so it's instantly essentially available for the entire world.

或者选择人们已经知道如何使用的类别，因此我们试图尽可能多地保留其中的单词，以便它可以立即供全世界使用。

Jason Fried: It doesn't have to be localized.

Jason Fried：它不必本地化。

It's just like, it's universal software.

就像，它是通用软件。

We're trying to think about it this way.

我们正在尝试这样思考。

And when we do have a word, we're going to have a panel that shows that translation in a bunch of different languages.

当我们确实有一个单词时，我们将有一个面板显示该单词的多种不同语言的翻译。

So it's not like you install this pack or that pack, it's like, you can hit this because different people in the world work in different countries.

所以这不像你安装这个包或那个包，就像你可以点击这个，因为世界上不同的人在不同的国家工作。

So we have people in different countries that work for us.

所以我们有来自不同国家的人为我们工作。

I don't want to just have the Indian version because people in India might also have people that work in Brazil and they need the Portuguese version.

我不想只拥有印度版本，因为印度人可能也有在巴西工作的人，他们需要葡萄牙语版本。

So you can see all the different languages for certain words when we use them, which is a really novel thing.

所以当我们使用某些单词时，你可以看到它们的所有不同语言，这是一个非常新奇的事情。

Jason Fried: We're kind of playing, this is the whole thing like, these tools give us a chance to play and explore new realms and new ideas that we couldn't do with SaaS.

Jason Fried：我们有点在玩，这就是整个事情，这些工具让我们有机会去玩和探索 SaaS 无法做到的新领域和新想法。

This is one of the things I'm getting back to the first question you asked me, I think, or maybe it wasn't the first, but this is why I'm excited again.

我想，这是我要回到你问我的第一个问题的原因之一，或者也许这不是第一个问题，但这就是我再次感到兴奋的原因。

There's some novelty again, there's some new explorations again.

又有些新奇了，又有些新的探索了。

We're able to do things that we couldn't do in other places.

我们能够做到在其他地方做不到的事情。

So there's an excitement that's building around this creative exploration again, and that's really firing us up.

因此，围绕这种创造性探索再次产生了一种兴奋，这确实激发了我们的热情。

Lenny: It's clear how you're excited about this.

莱尼：很明显你对此感到多么兴奋。

You're saying how you thought you'd be happy just building Basecamp for the rest of your life, and clearly, there's a pull here, I'm going to try something totally new and different.

你说你认为只要在余生中构建 Basecamp 就会很开心，很明显，这里有一种吸引力，我将尝试一些全新的、不同的东西。

Also, the domain is awesome, Once.com, right?

另外，这个域名很棒，Once.com，对吧？

Jason Fried: Yeah, that was fun.

杰森·弗里德：是的，那很有趣。

And we're still going to do Basecamp in here.

我们仍然会在这里进行 Basecamp。

So we're still doing SaaS.

所以我们仍然在做SaaS。

I still believe in SaaS.

我仍然相信SaaS。

This is not going to replace SaaS but there should be an alternative.

这不会取代 SaaS，但应该有替代方案。

People should be able to buy what they need versus rent what they need.

人们应该能够购买他们需要的东西，而不是租用他们需要的东西。

Lenny: I think this is going to be an interesting experiment because this is how we started with software and then SaaS came and everyone loved this idea of, I don't have to worry about anything.

Lenny：我认为这将是一个有趣的实验，因为这就是我们从软件开始的方式，然后 SaaS 出现了，每个人都喜欢这个想法，我不必担心任何事情。

I'm just going to pay you monthly and you take care of maintenance and hosting all that stuff and keep updating me with better features.

我只是每月向您付款，您负责维护和托管所有这些内容，并不断为我提供更好的功能。

So I think it'll be interesting to see if we've missed something leaving that world.

所以我认为看看我们是否错过了离开那个世界的东西会很有趣。

One clarifying question, for updates, do you buy yearly, like a new Campfire every year, or how does that work if there's updates?

一个澄清的问题是，对于更新，您是否每年购买一次，就像每年购买一个新的 Campfire 一样，或者如果有更新，这将如何运作？

Jason Fried: So the plan is, is that let's say you buy Campfire 1.0, this is the way software used to work.

Jason Fried：所以计划是，假设你购买了 Campfire 1.0，这就是软件过去的工作方式。

It's the same approach, which is like, you'll get all the 1.X updates for free.

这是相同的方法，就像您将免费获得所有 1.X 更新。

And you'll be able to decide if you want to update yours or not.

您将能够决定是否要更新您的。

So we'll say, hey, 1.1 is out and here are the new things and you get to decide if you want to download that and update yours or not.

所以我们会说，嘿，1.1 已经发布了，这里有一些新东西，你可以决定是否要下载它并更新你的版本。

So you can stick with 1.0 if you want or you can skip a version, whatever you want to do.

因此，如果您愿意，您可以坚持使用 1.0，也可以跳过某个版本，无论您想做什么。

Jason Fried: If when we get to version 2.0, there'd probably be...

Jason Fried：如果我们到达 2.0 版本，可能会......

you'd probably have to buy it again, but we'd probably have a discounted upgrade rate.

您可能需要再次购买，但我们可能会提供升级折扣。

But that's like, you also totally optional.

但这就像，你也完全是可选的。

I don't know if we'll ever even get there.

我不知道我们是否能到达那里。

We might not need to.

我们可能不需要。

Have no clue.

没有任何线索。

But we're leaving that door open that if there's a radically new version that we had to sink another six or eight months into or something, it feels right to say you'll need to upgrade.

但我们会敞开大门，如果有一个全新的版本，我们不得不再花六到八个月的时间或其他什么，那么说你需要升级是正确的。

Maybe you get half off because you're a previous customer or something like that.

也许你会因为你是以前的顾客或类似的原因而得到半价。

So we don't know but that's the plan.

所以我们不知道，但这就是计划。

Lenny: I think it's also important for people to remember your target is not to replace Slack at big tech companies, like your market is the Fortune 5 million as you described.

Lenny：我认为人们要记住，你的目标不是取代大型科技公司的 Slack，这一点也很重要，就像你所描述的那样，你的市场是财富 500 万强公司。

Jason Fried: First of all, we don't have a sales team, so it's self-service, it'll always be.

Jason Fried：首先，我们没有销售团队，所以它是自助服务，永远都是。

If some big huge company says...

如果某个大公司说...

they look at their bill, their Slack bill and they're going, we're paying 1.2 million a year for this?

他们查看他们的账单，他们的 Slack 账单，他们会说，我们每年为此支付 120 万美元？

Wait, wait a second, I can pay less than 1,000 bucks once for this.

等等，等等，我一次可以花不到1000块钱。

Maybe that's worth having, or maybe even if we don't use it, it's absolutely worth buying because maybe we will use it, or maybe we can experiment with it in this place.

也许这是值得拥有的，或者即使我们不使用它，它也绝对值得购买，因为也许我们会使用它，或者也许我们可以在这个地方尝试它。

One of the things we're trying to do here is find a price point and it's going to be under 1,000 bucks.

我们在这里尝试做的事情之一就是找到一个价格点，使其低于 1,000 美元。

I won't tell you exactly where, but we're trying to find a price point where it's kind of becomes a no-brainer, like, you know what?

我不会告诉你具体在哪里，但我们正在努力找到一个价格点，在这个价格点上它变得不费脑子，就像，你知道吗？

We should buy this, we should have, this should be in our toolkit, and we should use this in certain parts of our business even if we don't replace this other thing, although we still might because we might find that as this group or these two groups or three groups that are using this are making exactly the same progress, why are we spending all this money elsewhere?

我们应该购买这个，我们应该拥有，这应该在我们的工具包中，即使我们不替换其他东西，我们也应该在我们业务的某些部分使用它，尽管我们仍然可能，因为我们可能会发现，由于使用它的这个组或这两个组或三个组正在取得完全相同的进展，为什么我们要把所有这些钱花在其他地方？

Jason Fried: So it's a bit of a Trojan horse, potentially.

Jason Fried：所以这可能有点像特洛伊木马。

I don't know what's going to happen.

我不知道会发生什么。

No idea, but it's going to be pretty interesting.

不知道，但这会很有趣。

The other thing that's really cool about it, this is the tiniest market in the world, but because it doesn't go out to the internet, you can run it in truly air-gapped research facilities.

另一件很酷的事情是，这是世界上最小的市场，但因为它不连接到互联网，所以你可以在真正的气隙研究设施中运行它。

There was a time way back in the day where the White House got in touch with us.

很久以前，白宫就与我们取得了联系。

This is when Obama was running and wanted to use Basecamp.

当时奥巴马正在竞选并想使用 Basecamp。

But they're like, we need to install it because we can't obviously host this stuff on your servers.

但他们说，我们需要安装它，因为我们显然无法在您的服务器上托管这些东西。

I know, I totally get it.

我知道，我完全明白。

We can't do that, unfortunately.

不幸的是，我们不能这样做。

Sorry.

对不起。

But they have security needs that are just far beyond what most things allow, but this is the kind of thing where they can actually be completely detached from the public internet and run this kind of software, which is really interesting.

但他们的安全需求远远超出了大多数事情所允许的范围，但他们实际上可以完全脱离公共互联网并运行这种软件，这非常有趣。

Again, tiny market, not what we're building it for, but it's a cool byproduct or side effect, I should say, of running things this way.

再说一遍，市场很小，不是我们构建它的目的，但我应该说，这是以这种方式运行的一个很酷的副产品或副作用。

Lenny: And then did you share when this might come out?

莱尼：那么你有没有透露这可能什么时候发布？

I know you don't promise dates but is there something you want to share there or is it-

我知道你不承诺约会，但你有什么想分享的吗？或者是-

Jason Fried: Well, unfortunately, we promised.

杰森·弗里德：嗯，不幸的是，我们答应了。

We said by the end of this year, that's why I was getting to that.

我们说过，到今年年底，这就是我这样做的原因。

But we said by the end of 2023, and we're almost there, here we are in December, so mid-December, we're going to start to roll this out to the first batch of customers.

但我们说过，到 2023 年底，我们就快到了，12 月，所以 12 月中旬，我们将开始向第一批客户推出这一服务。

It's probably not going to be available publicly to everyone in the world yet, but that'll come soon after.

它可能还不会向世界上的每个人公开，但很快就会公开。

But the first batch of customers are going to get it and we'll slow-roll it out, figure out what we missed, what we need to tighten up and tweak.

但第一批客户将会得到它，我们将慢慢推出它，找出我们错过了什么，我们需要加强和调整什么。

It's not really a beta as much as it's just a limited release, which is the smart way to do this, and then we'll open the doors very, very soon after that.

它并不是真正的测试版，而只是一个有限的版本，这是做到这一点的明智方法，然后我们很快就会打开大门。

Lenny: Jason, you're breaking your own rule of not saying by end of the year.

莱尼：杰森，你违反了自己规定的年底前不说的规定。

Apparently, I learned earlier that that's never works.

显然，我早些时候就知道那是行不通的。

Jason Fried: Yeah, it's funny, we definitely said that and we said that six months ago and here we are, end of the year.

杰森·弗里德：是的，这很有趣，我们确实这么说过，六个月前我们就说过了，现在是年底。

Lenny: It's happening.

莱尼：事情正在发生。

So maybe sometimes it works out.

所以也许有时会奏效。

Lenny: Before we get to our very exciting lighting round, is there anything else that you wanted to share, touch on, or leave listeners with?

Lenny：在我们开始激动人心的灯光回合之前，您还有什么想分享、触及或留给听众的吗？

Jason Fried: I think one of the most important things though to remember, and I got to it in another answer, is just like, humans tend to complicate things, and a lot of things are hard but they're still simple until you make them complicated.

杰森·弗里德：我认为要记住的最重要的事情之一，我在另一个答案中得到了它，就像，人类倾向于使事情复杂化，很多事情很困难，但它们仍然很简单，直到你把它们变得复杂。

And just keep that in mind that you can make a lot of progress with two people, and you can do a lot of great work four weeks at a time max, and you can figure things out as you go, and you don't need to know exactly where you're going, and you can be profitable business, and you can find customers who are willing to pay for things.

只要记住这一点，两个人的合作就可以取得很大的进步，最多可以在四个星期内完成很多出色的工作，你可以边做边想，你不需要确切地知道你要去哪里，你可以做有利可图的生意，你可以找到愿意付费的客户。

These are all possible things to do.

这些都是可以做的事情。

And you don't need to be a big huge company to be successful.

而且你不需要成为一家大公司才能成功。

And you don't need to be a big huge company to make significant amounts of money.

而且你不需要成为一家大公司才能赚大钱。

You don't need to do that.

你不需要这样做。

Jason Fried: You don't need to raise money.

杰森·弗里德：你不需要筹集资金。

So it's like, all those things make things more complicated, actually.

事实上，所有这些事情都让事情变得更加复杂。

Some people think they might make them simpler, if I have a bunch of money, it's simpler.

有些人认为他们可能会让事情变得更简单，如果我有很多钱，那就更简单了。

It's actually not simpler, it's harder.

其实不是更简单，而是更难。

In a sense, the more...

从某种意义上说，越...

because those things come with expectations and again, they erase your scrappiness, and there are side effects here.

因为这些事情伴随着期望而来，它们会再次消除你的斗志，并且这里有副作用。

Those things come with very, very thick and strong strings attached.

这些东西都附带着非常非常粗且强的条件。

And you got to think about what are those strings attach to and what do they prevent you from doing?

你必须考虑这些条件附加到什么以及它们阻止你做什么？

You don't have a full range of motion anymore.

您不再具有完整的运动范围。

So I'll leave people with that, even if I touched on some of those ideas earlier on.

所以我会把这个留给人们，即使我早些时候谈到了其中的一些想法。

Lenny: And that's a really great way to summarize it.

莱尼：这是一个非常好的总结方式。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Jason Fried: The first one is this book here, so Several Short Sentences About Writing.

Jason Fried：第一个是这本书，所以是关于写作的几个短句。

Do you know this book?

你知道这本书吗？

Lenny: I love that book.

莱尼：我喜欢那本书。

I have it on my coffee table.

我把它放在咖啡桌上。

Jason Fried: When anyone ever asks me, what book do you recommend on writing?

杰森·弗里德：当有人问我时，你推荐什么关于写作的书？

It's this one, Several Short Sentences About Writing.

就是这个，关于写作的几句短句。

I can never pronounce his last name, but Verlyn Klinkenborg, I believe is his name, although I might be bastardizing that.

我永远无法说出他的姓氏，但我相信 Verlyn Klinkenborg 是他的名字，尽管我可能会贬低这个名字。

But it's an extraordinarily good book about writing and it's all about the sentence, beautifully written, fun to read, really great.

但这是一本关于写作的非常好的书，一切都是关于句子的，写得很漂亮，读起来很有趣，真的很棒。

The other one is pretty much anything by Derek Sivers, but specifically, Hell Yeah Or No. I recommend this book to everybody.

另一本几乎是德里克·西弗斯（Derek Sivers）的任何作品，但具体来说，是还是不。我向所有人推荐这本书。

It's really had a big effect on me and David, specifically.

这确实对我和大卫产生了很大的影响，特别是。

We use this term, hell or no, all the time internally.

不管有没有，我们内部一直使用这个术语。

Is this a hell yeah or no?

这是是还是不是？

It really clarifies a lot of things.

它确实澄清了很多事情。

And the last one is this design book, which is interesting.

最后一本是这本设计书，很有趣。

There's a few different versions of it.

它有几个不同的版本。

The one I have handy, it's called Home-made: Contemporary RussianFolk Artifacts.

我手头有一本，叫做《自制：当代俄罗斯民间工艺品》。

Jason Fried: And what this book is, it's a collection of...

杰森·弗里德：这本书是什么，它是……的集合。

it's a beautiful book.

这是一本漂亮的书。

It's very simple.

这很简单。

Basically, every spread is a person, a story, and a thing that they had to make because they didn't have anything.

基本上，每一个跨页都是一个人、一个故事和一件他们必须制作的东西，因为他们什么都没有。

They couldn't buy what they needed.

他们买不到他们需要的东西。

They didn't have what they needed.

他们没有他们需要的东西。

So this example here is a guy put a hole in a spoon to make bubbles for his kid, to blow bubbles, large bubbles.

这个例子是一个人在勺子上打了一个洞，为他的孩子吹泡泡，吹泡泡，大泡泡。

This is a TV antenna made out of forks, and it's just like, getting back to the scrappiness, I admire this kind of ingenuity among or over pretty much anything.

这是一个用叉子制成的电视天线，就像，回到争吵，我钦佩几乎所有东西之间或之上的这种独创性。

And I think that this book is full.

我认为这本书很完整。

There's a couple hundred pages.

有几百页。

They have a couple different editions of this, but I love this one a lot.

他们有几个不同的版本，但我非常喜欢这个。

Look at this one.

看看这个。

This guy had to make a door handle.

这家伙必须做一个门把手。

I mean, in America, we're like, go get a door handle at Home Depot.

我的意思是，在美国，我们就像去家得宝买门把手。

Jason Fried: This guy didn't have a door handle, so he made it out of a plastic, looks like a gallon oil can or some water thing, and nailed it to a book, which nailed it to a door.

杰森·弗里德：这家伙没有门把手，所以他用塑料制成，看起来像加仑油罐或水的东西，然后把它钉在书上，书又把它钉在门上。

Amazing.

惊人的。

And this is also why I've always loved...

这也是我一直喜欢的原因...

I know this isn't very lightning, sorry but I've always loved looking at jailhouse creations and tools and how people make weapons out of combs and pens.

我知道这不是很闪电，抱歉，但我一直喜欢看监狱的创作和工具，以及人们如何用梳子和笔制造武器。

It's just, I find this like, I have nothing, I need something, I can use my human brain to figure out how to make it.

只是，我发现这就像，我什么都没有，我需要一些东西，我可以用我的大脑来弄清楚如何制作它。

I think that scrappiness is beautiful.

我认为斗志是美丽的。

Lenny: Yeah, I was just going to say it speaks clearly to your scrappy mentality.

莱尼：是的，我只是想说这清楚地说明了你好斗的心态。

And what is that book called again?

那本书又叫什么名字？

Jason Fried: This one's called Home-made: Contemporary RussianFolk Artifacts.

杰森·弗里德：这个叫做自制：当代俄罗斯民间工艺品。

And there's also an Eastern European one and there's another one too, but Home-made.

还有一种是东欧的，还有另一种，但是是自制的。

Lenny: What an awesome, unusual selection.

莱尼：多么棒的、不寻常的选择啊。

Okay, next question.

好的，下一个问题。

What is a favorite recent movie or TV show?

最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Jason Fried: I don't watch TV.

杰森·弗里德：我不看电视。

I rarely get a chance to see movies these days.

这些天我很少有机会看电影。

I really thoroughly enjoyed Oppenheimer though.

不过，我真的非常喜欢奥本海默。

I mean, I went to the theater to see it, and seeing that in the theater was really special, but I just love the movie, is fantastic.

我的意思是，我去剧院看了它，在剧院里看到这部电影真的很特别，但我就是喜欢这部电影，太棒了。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates that you are interviewing to hire?

莱尼：您有一个最喜欢问正在面试的候选人的面试问题吗？

Jason Fried: I think we actually went over this one a little bit, which was, I'm always curious about what else...

杰森·弗里德：我想我们实际上稍微讨论了这个问题，我总是很好奇还有什么......

if you had more time, what would you do with this idea?

如果你有更多时间，你会用这个想法做什么？

Another one is, whose work do you admire?

另外一个问题是，你欣赏谁的作品？

So it's not so much about what you can do, but what are other people doing that you think is great?

所以，重要的不是你能做什么，而是其他人在做什么你认为很棒的事情？

I find that, that really illuminates what kind of pulse they have on the world and what they're looking at and what inspires them and what they think is good.

我发现，这确实阐明了他们对世界的脉搏、他们所关注的事物、激励他们的事物以及他们认为好的东西。

So I like that question.

所以我喜欢这个问题。

Lenny: In that second question, what do you look for?

莱尼：在第二个问题中，你要寻找什么？

Is it someone that you also admire?

是不是你也欣赏的人呢？

Jason Fried: Ultimately, in the moment, I don't care who it is.

杰森·弗里德：最终，目前我不在乎是谁。

It's more about, tell me why.

更重要的是，告诉我为什么。

So someone will say, I like so-and-so, I'm like, why do you like them?

所以有人会说，我喜欢某某，我想，你为什么喜欢他们？

What are they doing that you think is interesting?

他们在做什么你认为有趣的事情？

This is kind of the thing I tend to always ask, which is, why do you think that that's interesting?

这是我经常问的问题，即，为什么你认为这很有趣？

I'm always trying to get behind the words and understand where this is coming from because people can prepare answers and they can sound great.

我总是试图理解文字背后的含义并理解它的来源，因为人们可以准备答案，而且听起来很棒。

But it's like, well, what's behind that?

但这背后是什么？

Where are you going with that?

你要去哪里？

Why?

为什么？

What's the genesis of this?

这有什么渊源呢？

That's what I'm always after.

这就是我一直追求的。

And so whether or not I agree with the work or whatever, in the end, it plays a part to some degree but I'm more interested in, how did you get there?

因此，无论我是否同意这项工作或其他什么，最终，它在某种程度上发挥了作用，但我更感兴趣的是，你是如何做到这一点的？

Lenny: Is there a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny：有没有您最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品？

Jason Fried: Yes, although it's more of a category.

Jason Fried：是的，尽管它更多的是一个类别。

I bought an old car, and I've fallen back in love with stick shifts.

我买了一辆旧车，然后我又爱上了变速杆。

I learned how to stick, and then I basically have had automatic cars for many years and I got back into sticks.

我学会了如何坚持，然后我基本上已经拥有自动汽车很多年了，我又回到了坚持。

And now it's even deeper than that.

现在它比那更深了。

I got back into the old analog driving experience and how wonderful it is to feel attached to the machine that you're using, that you turn the wheel and it turns it rod and it turns the wheels, and that your leg muscle actually is what's breaking the car, to some degree.

我回到了旧的模拟驾驶体验，感觉与你正在使用的机器有联系是多么美妙，你转动车轮，它转动杆，它转动车轮，而你的腿部肌肉实际上是在某种程度上破坏汽车的原因。

There's something about that direct feel that really surprised me.

这种直接的感觉确实让我感到惊讶。

It surprised me how much is missing in modern cars and it actually...

让我惊讶的是现代汽车缺少了多少东西，实际上......

I like to draw these parallels because this is how I see the world.

我喜欢画出这些相似之处，因为这就是我看待世界的方式。

It reminded me of our business, actually.

实际上，这让我想起了我们的生意。

I think we have a very stick shift business.

我认为我们的业务非常棒。

Jason Fried: We have a very direct business.

Jason Fried：我们有非常直接的业务。

Everything's very, very tight, very straightforward.

一切都非常非常严格、非常简单。

There are not a lot of layers of abstractions.

没有很多抽象层。

There are not a lot of things in the middle between the work we do and the way it feels, and I think of large businesses as automatic transmissions and modern cars where you just...

我们所做的工作和感觉之间没有太多的事情，我认为大型企业就像自动变速器和现代汽车，你只需......

everything's simulated.

一切都是模拟的。

You don't really know what the road feels like.

你根本不知道路上的感觉。

You can't really feel it in the steering wheel, or maybe there's some fake feel in there now.

你在方向盘上无法真正感觉到它，或者现在可能有一些虚假的感觉。

The brakes are just sending a command to a computer to squeeze the pads.

制动器只是向计算机发送命令以挤压刹车片。

The transmission is like, you don't control it, it just does its own thing.

传输就像，你无法控制它，它只是做自己的事情。

And there's a beauty in that too, but there's also a disconnect that I forgot about until I got back into driving the old car, which is harder to drive and noisier and bumpier and creakier, but there's a real directness to it that's really special, and I think it's actually a good way to look at business and to remind yourself that staying as connected to the thing that you're doing as possible has a lot of value.

这也有其美妙之处，但也有一种脱节，直到我重新开上那辆旧车，我才忘记了它，它更难开，更吵，更颠簸，更摇摇欲坠，但它有一种真正的直接性，非常特别，我认为这实际上是一种看待业务的好方法，并提醒自己，尽可能与你正在做的事情保持联系是很有价值的。

Lenny: That's an awesome metaphor.

莱尼：这是一个很棒的比喻。

Next question, do you have a favorite life motto that you often repeat yourself, share with folks, find useful in work or in life?

下一个问题，您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常重复自己、与他人分享、发现在工作或生活中有用？

Jason Fried: And I don't always live up to it, but basically, it's worry less.

杰森·弗里德：我并不总是能做到这一点，但基本上，它可以减少担忧。

There's a great Tom Petty lyric.

汤姆·佩蒂有一首很棒的歌词。

I can't remember which song it's in, but I think it's on Wildflowers on the album.

我不记得它出现在哪首歌中，但我认为它出现在专辑的《Wildflowers》中。

Most of the things you worry about never happened anyway.

无论如何，大多数你担心的事情都没有发生。

And it's just so true.

这就是事实。

I find myself worrying about all sorts of things that don't matter and never happen, and then you're like, God, I spent three days worrying about that, or I went to this appointment and it was fine.

我发现自己担心各种无关紧要且永远不会发生的事情，然后你会想，上帝，我花了三天时间担心这个，或者我去了这个约会，这很好。

The amount of worry, and it's just all in your head, and it's all about anticipating the future that hasn't happened yet, and I try to tell myself that, and I try to tell others that in business.

大量的担忧，全都在你的脑海里，都是关于预测尚未发生的未来，我试图告诉自己这一点，我也试图在商业中告诉别人这一点。

I try to tell myself that in life and in business, but also, I tell others that in business, what if people don't like...

我试图告诉自己，在生活和商业中，而且，我告诉别人，在商业中，如果人们不喜欢......

I don't know.

我不知道。

You'll find out.

你会发现的。

Worry less about it.

少担心一点。

It probably isn't going to be a big deal anyway.

无论如何，这可能不会有什么大不了的。

So that's what I would say.

这就是我要说的。

Lenny: Final question, I was going to ask you this before you mentioned this, but you said you're writing a new book, potentially, are you able to share what this new book might be about?

莱尼：最后一个问题，在你提到这一点之前我本来想问你这个问题，但你说你正在写一本新书，有可能，你能分享一下这本新书的内容吗？

Jason Fried: We haven't started writing it.

Jason Fried：我们还没有开始写它。

I can tell you, or I'm thinking about it, and it's going to revolve around the idea of gut and intuition in business and decision-making.

我可以告诉你，或者我正在考虑这个问题，它将围绕商业和决策中的直觉和直觉的想法。

I don't really know exactly how they all play in here in a book, but I think we need to celebrate gut and intuition more in business.

我真的不太清楚它们在书中是如何发挥作用的，但我认为我们需要在商业中更多地颂扬直觉和直觉。

And most business books are not about that.

大多数商业书籍都不是关于这个的。

They're about the opposite in many ways.

他们在很多方面都是相反的。

Whatever, you can't improve what you can't measure, or whatever these things are.

不管怎样，你无法改进你无法衡量的东西，或者无论这些东西是什么。

And I think that's true in a lot of realms, like medicine, you can look at your biomarkers and you can do things.

我认为在很多领域都是如此，比如医学，你可以查看你的生物标志物，然后你就可以做一些事情。

Jason Fried: I don't think things are quite as direct in business, and I think that intuition and gut is something to be celebrated.

Jason Fried：我认为商业中的事情并不那么直接，而且我认为直觉和直觉是值得庆祝的。

So I think what we're probably going to end up doing is looking at all the ways we use intuition and gut to make decisions at work, whether it's hiring or product decisions or policy decisions or whatever it is.

所以我认为我们最终可能要做的是研究我们在工作中使用直觉和直觉做出决策的所有方式，无论是招聘、产品决策、政策决策还是其他什么。

Maybe break down some of those decisions in the past, perhaps, or talk about things on a day-to-day basis about how we employ those tools to move forward.

也许可以分解过去的一些决定，或者谈论日常的事情，关于我们如何利用这些工具来前进。

So that's roughly the idea.

这就是大致的想法。

It's very loose right now but hopefully, we can tighten it up and that's what I'd love to focus on that next.

现在非常宽松，但希望我们可以收紧它，这就是我下一步想要关注的重点。

Lenny: That's an awesome topic for a book.

莱尼：对于一本书来说，这是一个很棒的主题。

I was thinking Worry Less could also be an awesome title for a book, if that's another topic-

我在想《少忧》也可能是一个很棒的书名，如果这是另一个主题的话——

Jason Fried: That'd be a great title for a book-

杰森·弗里德（Jason Fried）：这对于一本书来说是一个很棒的标题——

Lenny: I'm reading Charlie Munger's Poor Charlie Almanack right now.

莱尼：我现在正在读查理·芒格的《穷查理年鉴》。

Lenny: There's a whole thing around the way we misjudge and make mistakes with our psychology, just like a heuristic .

莱尼：我们的心理会产生错误的判断和错误，就像启发式的一样。

Lenny: Exactly.

莱尼：没错。

And I feel like that would be a part of this story of gut instinct are often right, but here's ways that we are often wrong, so maybe that's something to think about.

我觉得这将是这个故事的一部分，直觉通常是正确的，但我们经常犯错，所以也许这是值得思考的事情。

Jason Fried: Yeah, it's funny.

杰森·弗里德：是的，这很有趣。

I had one opportunity to meet with Charlie Munger.

我有一次机会见到查理·芒格。

Jason Fried: It was on a Zoom call, and it was four of us, and we got an hour with him.

Jason Fried：那是在 Zoom 通话中，我们四个人，我们有一个小时和他在一起。

Jason Fried: This was a few years ago.

杰森·弗里德：那是几年前的事了。

And I only asked him one question.

而我只问了他一个问题。

I was mostly just a student listening to other people's questions.

我基本上只是一个听别人提问的学生。

I said, what's your take on doing something well that you know nothing about?

我说，你怎么看待把自己一无所知的事情做好呢？

Essentially, is there power in being completely ignorant about something?

从本质上讲，对某件事完全无知是否有力量？

I didn't add this but I've often found myself more creative when I don't know how to do something versus like, well, this is how you're supposed to do it, so you fall into this pattern.

我没有添加这个，但我经常发现当我不知道如何做某事时自己更有创造力，而不是像，嗯，这就是你应该做的那样，所以你陷入了这种模式。

And I really loved his answer, which was, "I would just...

我真的很喜欢他的回答，那就是，“我只是......

trust your instinct on that," which is like, a lot of great things happen because you don't know how to do them.

相信你的直觉，”这就像，很多伟大的事情发生是因为你不知道如何去做。

Jason Fried: In fact, a lot of innovations happen because you don't know how other people do them, and all you have is your gut.

Jason Fried：事实上，很多创新的发生是因为你不知道别人是怎么做的，而你所拥有的只是你的直觉。

All you have is your intuition.

你所拥有的只是你的直觉。

All you have is how you feel about the thing.

你所拥有的只是你对这件事的感受。

You don't have evidence, you don't have other examples to follow.

你没有证据，也没有其他例子可以效仿。

You don't have a list of what to do.

你没有一份要做什么的清单。

You just do.

你就这样做。

And I'm paraphrasing here.

我在这里转述一下。

But it gave me a lot of confidence and hope to continue to follow our gut.

但这给了我很大的信心和希望继续追随我们的直觉。

And maybe this is, ultimately, in a way, what was the seed for this book perhaps, although I hadn't really thought about that until now.

也许这最终在某种程度上就是这本书的种子，尽管直到现在我还没有真正考虑过这一点。

But it's a beautiful thing to read and to listen to him speak.

但阅读和聆听他的演讲是一件美妙的事情。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Lenny: Jason, we covered everything I was hoping we'd cover.

莱尼：杰森，我们涵盖了我希望涵盖的所有内容。

Thank you so much for making the time for this.

非常感谢您抽出时间来做这件事。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Folks want to follow up and maybe ask more questions.

人们想要跟进并可能提出更多问题。

How can they reach you if they can?

如果可以的话，他们如何联系到您？

And then how can listeners be useful to you?

那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Jason Fried: So you can hit me up on X, Jason Fried, F-R-I-E-D.

Jason Fried：所以你可以在 X 上联系我，Jason Fried，F-R-I-E-D。

I'm on LinkedIn as well, and you can also email me directly, just Jason@hey, H-E-Y.com.

我也在 LinkedIn 上，您也可以直接给我发电子邮件，只需 Jason@hey, H-E-Y.com。

So hit me up there.

所以就到那里来打我吧。

How can people help me?

人们可以如何帮助我？

I mean, if you like what we're doing, spread the word.

我的意思是，如果您喜欢我们正在做的事情，请传播出去。

We don't really spend any money on advertising and marketing.

我们实际上并没有在广告和营销上花任何钱。

We've explored a little bit here and there but most of our growth has been organic, and it's just word of mouth.

我们到处进行了一些探索，但我们的大部分增长都是有机的，而且只是口碑相传。

So if you like what we're doing, tell people about it because it really helps us out.

因此，如果您喜欢我们正在做的事情，请告诉人们，因为这确实对我们有帮助。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Jason, thank you so much for being here.

杰森，非常感谢你来到这里。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenny'spodcast.com.

您可以在 lenny'spodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。