How to get press for your product | Jason Feifer (editor in chief of Entrepreneur magazine)

Jason Feifer: The editor, the writer, I'll just say it as plainly as possible.

Jason Feifer：编辑、作家，我会尽可能简单地说出来。

They don't care about you.

他们不关心你。

They don't care about you.

他们不关心你。

They care about their reader or their listener or their viewer.

他们关心他们的读者、听众或观众。

That's who they care about.

这就是他们关心的人。

That's who they're serving, and if you can be of use to them in sharing the kinds of information that they are looking to serve their audience, then you can get what you want.

这就是他们所服务的对象，如果您可以帮助他们分享他们希望为受众服务的信息，那么您就可以得到您想要的。

But you can't treat them like a service provider because they're not.

但你不能把他们当作服务提供商，因为他们不是。

And so you have to approach them with an understanding of what they're trying to do for their audience and how you can fit into that because if you don't, they are not interested in you.

因此，你必须在接触他们时了解他们想为观众做什么以及你如何融入其中，因为如果你不这样做，他们对你就不感兴趣。

Lenny: Today, my guest is Jason Feifer.

莱尼：今天，我的客人是贾森·费弗。

Jason is editor in chief at Entrepreneur Magazine, previously an editor at Fast Company and a number of other magazines.

Jason 是《企业家杂志》的主编，此前曾担任《Fast Company》和其他多家杂志的编辑。

He's also an author, podcast host, keynote speaker, and startup advisor.

他还是一位作家、播客主持人、主题演讲人和创业顾问。

In our conversation, we get incredibly tactical about how to get press for your product.

在我们的谈话中，我们对如何为您的产品获得新闻报道采取了令人难以置信的策略。

Jason shares how to pitch a journalist, how to find the right journalist to pitch, what publications to consider, why freelance writers are more likely to write about your story, why the mission of the publication is so important in how you pitch them, plus what channels to use to reach out to journalists, how to think about your goals and what success looks like from getting press, so much more.

Jason 分享了如何向记者推销、如何找到合适的记者进行推销、考虑哪些出版物、为什么自由撰稿人更有可能写你的故事、为什么出版物的使命对于你如何推销他们如此重要，以及使用什么渠道接触记者、如何考虑你的目标以及通过媒体获得成功是什么样子等等。

Lenny: I learned a ton from this conversation, and if you're looking to get press for your stuff, you'll find so much value here.

莱尼：我从这次谈话中学到了很多东西，如果你想为你的东西获得媒体报道，你会发现这里有很多价值。

With that, I bring you Jason Feifer after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了杰森·费弗 (Jason Feifer)。

This episode is brought to you by Sidebar.

本集由 Sidebar 为您带来。

Are you looking to land your next big career move or start your own thing?

您是否正在寻找下一个重大职业变动或开始自己的事业？

One of the most effective ways to create a big leap in your career, and something that worked really well for me a few years ago, is to create a personal board of directors, a trusted peer group where you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just kind of gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

实现职业生涯重大飞跃的最有效方法之一，也是几年前对我来说非常有效的方法，就是创建一个个人董事会，一个值得信赖的同行小组，在这里你可以讨论你所面临的挑战，获得职业建议，并直观地检查你对工作、职业和生活的看法。

This has been a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group.

这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变，但建立这个值得信赖的团队很困难。

Lenny: With Sidebar, senior leaders are matched with highly vetted, private, supportive peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives, and raw feedback.

Lenny：通过 Sidebar，高级领导者可以与经过严格审查的、私密的、支持性的同行群体相匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Everyone has their own zone of genius, so together, we're better prepared to navigate professional pitfalls, leading to more responsibility, faster promotions, and bigger impact.

每个人都有自己的天才区，因此，我们齐心协力，就能更好地应对职业陷阱，从而承担更多的责任、更快的晋升和更大的影响。

Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, Sidebar enables you to get focused tactical feedback at every step of your journey.

在世界一流的编程和便利指导下，Sidebar 使您能够在旅程的每一步获得有针对性的战术反馈。

If you're a listener of this podcast, you're likely already driven and committed to growth.

如果您是此播客的听众，您可能已经有动力并致力于成长。

A Sidebar personal board of directors is the missing piece to catalyze that journey.

侧栏个人董事会是催化这一旅程所缺失的部分。

Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today?

今天您就可以在补充工具栏上见到您的朋友，为什么要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？

Lenny: Jump the growing wait list of thousands of leaders from top tech companies by visiting sidebar.com/lenny to learn more.

Lenny：访问 sidebar.com/lenny 以了解更多信息，从而跳过由顶级科技公司的数千名领导者组成的不断增长的候补名单。

That's sidebar.com/lenny.

这是 sidebar.com/lenny。

This episode is brought to you by Maui Nui Venison, a mission-based food company, bringing the healthiest red meat on the planet directly to your door.

本集由 Maui Nui Venison 为您带来，Maui Nui Venison 是一家以使命为基础的食品公司，将地球上最健康的红肉直接送到您家门口。

I actually joined Maui Nui Venison earlier this year after hearing their app on the Tim Ferriss Podcast, and I'm excited to be spreading the message further.

实际上，我今年早些时候在 Tim Ferriss 播客上听到了 Maui Nui Venison 的应用程序后加入了 Maui Nui Venison，我很高兴能够进一步传播这一信息。

Not only does this company provide the most nutrient-dense and protein-dense red meat available, their operation produces the only stress-free 100% wild harvested red meat on the market that is the only one of its kind in the world, actively managing Maui's invasive access, deer populations, helping to restore balanced, vulnerable ecosystems, food systems and communities in Hawaii.

该公司不仅提供营养最丰富、蛋白质最丰富的红肉，而且还生产市场上唯一无压力的 100% 野生红肉，这是世界上独一无二的，积极管理毛伊岛的入侵通道和鹿群，帮助恢复夏威夷平衡、脆弱的生态系统、粮食系统和社区。

Lenny: Also, it is seriously delicious.

莱尼：而且，它真的很好吃。

Not at all and easy to cook.

一点也不，而且很容易煮。

My wife and I made stew and steaks and all kinds of grilled goodies with the meat.

我和我的妻子用肉做了炖菜、牛排和各种烤肉。

We also feel great about it as a protein from an ethical standpoint.

从伦理的角度来看，我们也对它作为一种蛋白质感到非常满意。

I highly recommend trying their all-natural Venison jerky sticks for an optimal protein snack, as well as a wide variety of fresh cuts, all available in their online butcher shop.

我强烈推荐尝试他们的全天然鹿肉干棒，以获得最佳的蛋白质零食，以及各种新鲜切块，所有这些都可以在他们的在线肉店购买。

There are limited memberships available, but you can sign up and get 20% off your first order at mauinuivenison.

会员名额有限，但您可以在 mauinuivenison 注册并享受首单 20% 的折扣。

com/lenny.

com/莱尼。

That's mauinuivenison.com/lenny.

那是 mauinuivenison.com/lenny。

Jason, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

杰森，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny: It's absolutely my pleasure.

莱尼：这绝对是我的荣幸。

We've actually collaborated on a couple of things recently, and as we were chatting about some stuff, I was asking for advice on how to help a startup I'm working with get press, and you shared a bunch of killer advice, and so I asked if you could just come on this podcast and share similar advice for how to help startups get press and here we are.

实际上，我们最近在几件事上进行了合作，当我们谈论一些事情时，我正在寻求有关如何帮助我正在合作的初创公司获得媒体报道的建议，你分享了一堆杀手级的建议，所以我问你是否可以参加这个播客并分享类似的建议，以帮助初创公司获得媒体报道，我们就在这里。

Jason Feifer: Yeah, I'm really happy that you asked me to do that.

Jason Feifer：是的，我真的很高兴你让我这么做。

This is something people ask me about a lot.

这是人们经常问我的问题。

I've been in media for decades.

我从事媒体工作几十年了。

I've worked at a lot of different magazines.

我曾在很多不同的杂志工作过。

Obviously, I run Entrepreneur Magazine now, but I was a Fast Company.

显然，我现在经营《企业家》杂志，但我是一家快公司。

I was at Men's Health, so I've seen a lot of different sides of media, and it is a very misunderstood tool, particularly for people in business, and so I love demystifying it.

我在男性健康部门工作过，所以我看到了媒体的很多不同方面，这是一个非常被误解的工具，特别是对于商界人士来说，所以我喜欢揭开它的神秘面纱。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I'm excited to learn all this too, and so thanks for doing this.

我也很高兴了解这一切，因此感谢您这样做。

Lenny: First question is just, as someone in press, how much volume is there coming at you from startup founders and PR people trying to get you to write about them and also just reporters that you work with?

莱尼：第一个问题是，作为新闻界人士，初创公司创始人和公关人员以及与您合作的记者对您的报道有多少？

Jason Feifer: Yeah, it's tremendous.

杰森·费弗：是的，太棒了。

It's ridiculous.

这太荒谬了。

I would say that by the time we are done recording this podcast, I'll have, I don't know.

我想说，当我们录制完这个播客时，我会的，我不知道。

I mean, it could be anywhere from 30 to 50 pitches in my inbox.

我的意思是，我的收件箱中可能有 30 到 50 个推介。

It comes all day.

它整天都来。

Now, to be clear, most of that is garbage in the real garbagey sense, right.

现在，需要明确的是，其中大部分是真正垃圾意义上的垃圾，对吧。

Jason Feifer: It's a lot of completely unrelevant press releases that were sent to me and a bazillion other people.

Jason Feifer：这是发送给我和无数其他人的大量完全不相关的新闻稿。

But within, there are definitely some people who have spent the time to reach out very specifically to me, and everybody in media gets some kind of volume like that.

但在内部，肯定有一些人花时间专门与我联系，媒体中的每个人都得到了类似的信息。

To reach out to somebody in media is to be shouting over a lot of noise.

与媒体中的某个人接触就意味着在喧嚣声中大喊大叫。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

I imagine we'll get to this later, but I'm curious just what percentage of those are PR people and press release versus a founder or someone that is doing it themselves?

我想我们稍后会讨论这个问题，但我很好奇这些人中公关人员和新闻稿与创始人或自己做这件事的人的比例是多少？

Jason Feifer: The percentage of direct messages from founders that I'm getting is low.

Jason Feifer：我收到的来自创始人的直接消息的比例很低。

I would say probably 20, 25%.

我想说大概是20%、25%。

And then the 75% is PR in some capacity, either targeted PR where somebody's intentionally reaching out to me or mass blast press releases.

然后 75% 是某种能力的公关，要么是有人故意联系我的有针对性的公关，要么是大规模的新闻发布。

Lenny: You know what's crazy is I've been getting a lot of these now.

莱尼：你知道最疯狂的是我现在已经收到很多这样的东西了。

People think I'm some kind of journalist, and they're just like embargoed announcement product launch.

人们认为我是某种记者，他们就像禁运公告产品发布一样。

Jason Feifer: It doesn't take much because you just end up on some list, and what's really interesting, and we'll talk about PR later, I know.

Jason Feifer：这并不需要太多，因为你最终会出现在某个列表上，而且真正有趣的是，我知道，我们稍后会讨论公关。

But one of the great insights that you can get into the challenges of that industry is how completely automated a lot of it is where a lot of people in PR are not thinking specifically about how to tell the right story to the right potential media outlet.

但是，您可以了解该行业面临的挑战的重要见解之一是，该行业的自动化程度如何，而公关领域的许多人并没有专门考虑如何向正确的潜在媒体讲述正确的故事。

Instead, what they're doing is they're just playing a numbers game, and they're just blasting it out to everybody.

相反，他们所做的只是在玩数字游戏，他们只是向每个人爆料。

Jason Feifer: And that means that you could end up...

杰森·费弗：这意味着你最终可能会......

I write this newsletter, right.

我写这篇时事通讯，对吧。

I have...

我有...

Entrepreneur Magazine is the thing that people obviously would pitch, but then I have this newsletter where I don't interview anybody.

企业家杂志显然是人们会推销的东西，但我有这份时事通讯，其中我不采访任何人。

There's no opportunity to be featured in my newsletter, and I still get pitches to the newsletter because somebody saw it and dropped it in some spreadsheet, and it just...

我没有机会在我的时事通讯中出现，但我仍然会收到时事通讯的推介，因为有人看到它并将其放入某些电子表格中，而它只是......

now I get it.

现在我明白了。

And I think that's a real disservice to entrepreneurs who are paying for people to do that, and I really hate that.

我认为这对那些花钱雇人来做这件事的企业家来说是一种真正的伤害，我真的很讨厌这样做。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Okay, so we're going to get into the meat of just how to actually do this well, but a couple more questions just to set a little context.

好的，我们将深入探讨如何真正做好这件事，但还有几个问题只是为了提供一些背景信息。

One is in terms of impact.

一是从影响力来看。

What kind of impact have you seen from getting press for a startup in terms of growth for their product specifically?

您认为一家初创公司受到媒体的关注对其产品的增长产生了什么样的影响？

Jason Feifer: So it's a really wide range.

Jason Feifer：所以范围非常广泛。

I have had entrepreneurs tell me that a single story in Entrepreneur Magazine, like the print magazine or just online, will drive more, whatever more app downloads, more sales that month than any of their paid marketing efforts.

有企业家告诉我，《企业家杂志》中的一个故事（如印刷杂志或在线杂志）将推动更多（无论应用程序下载量如何）当月的销售额超过他们的任何付费营销活动。

Jason Feifer: But then I have also heard entrepreneurs tell me that it didn't do anything for them or that it did one very specific thing for them, which is to say maybe some potential partner read it and reached out, and it started an interesting conversation.

贾森·费弗：但后来我也听到企业家告诉我，它没有为他们做任何事情，或者它为他们做了一件非常具体的事情，也就是说，也许一些潜在的合作伙伴读了它并伸出了援手，然后它开始了一场有趣的对话。

It's all over the gamut, and it's a really important thing for people to remember is that this is not something that I think that you should bank on as a strategy for growth.

一切都是如此，人们要记住的一件非常重要的事情是，我认为这不是你应该指望的增长战略。

It's a great add-on.

这是一个很棒的附加组件。

But if you think that press by itself is going to solve your problems, you're wrong because it might, but it's way too unpredictable.

但如果你认为媒体本身就能解决你的问题，那你就错了，因为确实有可能，但它太不可预测了。

Lenny: Is there anything else along those lines of just when it's worth somebody investing time into getting press, either stage of startup, type of startup, any just general broad advice of you should not be spending time on trying to get press versus this is a really good opportunity for you.

莱尼：是否还有其他类似的事情，比如什么时候值得有人花时间去接受媒体采访，无论是创业阶段、创业类型，还是任何一般性的建议，你都不应该花时间去吸引媒体报道，因为这对你来说是一个非常好的机会。

Jason Feifer: Think about press the same way that you think about raising money, which is to say you do it when you know what the money is for, and you should do it when you know what the press is for.

贾森·费弗：以对待融资的方式来思考媒体，也就是说，当你知道钱的用途时，你就去做，当你知道媒体的用途时，你就应该这样做。

A lot of people reach out to me at such an early stage that if we wrote about them, it wouldn't get them anything.

很多人在这么早的阶段就联系我，如果我们写下他们，他们不会得到任何东西。

They're not at a stage where they could use that press in any meaningful way, and so there's really no purpose in chasing it now.

他们还没有到可以以任何有意义的方式利用压力的阶段，所以现在追逐它真的没有意义。

You should step back and think really as a starting point, "What do I need press for?" And if you have a good tactical answer to that, that could be because I need to drive awareness to a new product.

你应该退后一步，认真思考，作为一个起点，“我需要压力做什么？”如果你对此有一个很好的战术答案，那可能是因为我需要提高人们对新产品的认识。

That could be because I'm going out to raise money, and I need articles to show that the marketplace takes me seriously.

这可能是因为我要出去筹集资金，我需要文章来表明市场认真对待我。

Jason Feifer: These are good reasons, but I get a lot of emails.

Jason Feifer：这些都是很好的理由，但我收到了很多电子邮件。

It's funny because people are...

这很有趣，因为人们...

like entrepreneurs, in particular, they're just so vulnerable, and it's kind of a wonderful way sometimes.

特别是像企业家一样，他们非常脆弱，有时这是一种很好的方式。

And sometimes people will just email me, and they'll just say, "You know, I've worked really hard, and I just feel like I deserve this." I respect that, and I relate to it in some ways with my own trying to get attention for my own work.

有时人们会给我发电子邮件，他们只会说：“你知道，我工作得很努力，我觉得这是我应得的。”我尊重这一点，并且在某些方面我将其与我自己试图让自己的工作引起注意的方式联系起来。

But, "I deserve this" that's not a good tactical decision for your business that doesn't do anything for you.

但是，“我应得的”对于您的企业来说并不是一个好的战术决策，对您没有任何帮助。

And so I would put that to the side and only think of press as you don't go out and raise money if you don't know what the money is for.

所以我会把它放在一边，只考虑媒体，因为如果你不知道钱的用途，你就不会出去筹集资金。

You shouldn't go out and try to get press if you don't know what the press is for.

如果你不知道媒体的目的是什么，你就不应该出去尝试媒体报道。

Lenny: I'm curious to hear other examples when it's not, when it's a bad idea because, as like I said, an outside observer, I would always love to get more attention for my product and more people to be aware of it, more people to check it out.

莱尼：我很好奇听到其他例子，当它不是，当它是一个坏主意时，因为正如我所说，作为一个外部观察者，我总是希望我的产品得到更多关注，让更多人意识到它，更多人检查它。

Is there an example or anything that comes to mind of there's no need for you to do that in this moment or for this product?

有没有一个例子或任何事情让你想到你此时或对于这个产品不需要这样做？

Jason Feifer: Oftentimes, it's not even about the moment, but it's about the publication.

Jason Feifer：很多时候，这甚至与时刻无关，而是与出版物有关。

So I'll give you an example.

所以我给你举个例子。

I spoke at an event once, and afterwards, this guy comes up to me, and he has a small hot dog food truck business in Washington, DC.

我曾在一次活动中发言，后来，这个人向我走来，他在华盛顿特区经营一家小型热狗食品卡车业务。

So he said he's got a couple trucks, and he's doing good business selling hot dogs, and he wants coverage in Entrepreneur Magazine.

所以他说他有几辆卡车，而且他卖热狗的生意很好，他希望《企业家》杂志进行报道。

He's like, "Oh, how can I get a feature?" And the problem with that instinct that he has is that he's really directing his energy in the wrong place because if he is selling hot dogs in Washington, DC, then I understand what press is for him.

他说，“哦，我怎样才能获得一个功能呢？”他的直觉的问题在于，他确实把精力用在了错误的地方，因为如果他在华盛顿特区卖热狗，那么我就明白媒体对他来说意味着什么。

Press is to drive hotdog sales.

新闻是为了推动热狗销售。

That's what he wants to do.

这就是他想做的。

Entrepreneur is not going to do that for him.

企业家不会为他这样做。

Full stop.

句号。

Why?

为什么？

Because Entrepreneur reaches a national to international audience.

因为《企业家》吸引了国内外观众。

Jason Feifer: So that means that 99.5% of the people who would read a story about this guy have no ability to go get his hotdogs, which means that that was wasted effort.

Jason Feifer：所以这意味着 99.5% 读过这个人的故事的人都没有能力去买他的热狗，这意味着那是白费力气。

So fine.

很好。

Was it that hard to come up and talk to me at the conference?

在会议上来和我说话有那么难吗？

No. But scale that out.

不，但要扩大规模。

How many emails is he sending that are like that?

他发送了多少封这样的电子邮件？

How much energy is he putting into chasing things that ultimately don't have good direct value to him?

他投入了多少精力去追逐那些最终对他没有良好直接价值的东西？

What he needs to do is think, "Okay, my goal, get more people to buy hot dogs.

他需要做的是想，“好吧，我的目标是让更多的人买热狗。

Where am I?

我在哪里？

I'm in Washington, DC.

我在华盛顿特区。

How can I reach people who are interested in food in my market?" So stop chasing Entrepreneur and start chasing the local eater or the food section of the Washingtonian or something like that.

我如何才能接触到对我的市场中的食品感兴趣的人？”因此，停止追逐企业家，开始追逐当地的食客或华盛顿人的食品区或类似的东西。

That small shift can give you a lot more payoff for your effort.

这个小小的转变可以为你的努力带来更多的回报。

Lenny: This is a good segue to just let's just dive into how to actually go about getting press, and I know you-

莱尼：这是一个很好的过渡，让我们深入探讨如何真正获得媒体关注，我知道你-

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

kind of have this three-step structure for thinking about it.

有点像这样的三步结构来思考它。

Maybe just start with what are the three steps, and then we'll dive into each one.

也许先从这三个步骤开始，然后我们将深入研究每一个步骤。

Jason Feifer: Yeah, sure.

杰森·费弗：是的，当然。

So I mean, look, it is pretty simple, right.

所以我的意思是，看，这很简单，对吧。

Step one is prep.

第一步是准备。

You want to be thinking about how to tell your story.

您需要考虑如何讲述您的故事。

You want to be thinking about the kinds of stuff I just talked about.

你想要思考我刚才谈到的那些事情。

What is press for for you?

对你来说压力是什么？

Everything that you need to do to orient yourself towards what is this opportunity, and why am I chasing it, and how to make the most of it.

你需要做的一切，让自己了解这个机会是什么，我为什么要追逐它，以及如何充分利用它。

Step two is figuring out who to pitch.

第二步是确定向谁推销。

Not all press is created equal.

并非所有媒体都是平等的。

There are not reasons to just go chasing everybody arbitrarily.

没有理由去任意追逐每个人。

The hotdog example is a good one.

热狗就是一个很好的例子。

Jason Feifer: So finding the writers and editors who you're actually going to reach out to, who are going to most receptive to you.

贾森·费弗：所以找到你真正要接触的作家和编辑，他们最容易接受你。

And also making sure that because you did the prep, you can figure out how to tell your story in a way that they're going to be interested in.

并且还要确保，因为您做了准备，所以您可以弄清楚如何以他们感兴趣的方式讲述您的故事。

We'll talk about that.

我们会讨论这个。

And then step three is the actual pitch.

第三步是实际的音调。

What does it mean to reach out to these people, to engage the writers and editors?

接触这些人、吸引作家和编辑意味着什么？

How do you find them?

你怎么找到他们？

What do you send them?

你给他们寄什么？

What are you telling them?

你在告诉他们什么？

That's it.

就是这样。

Jason Feifer: I mean, right.

杰森·费弗：我的意思是，对。

But what you need to understand is that you're entering a world that probably doesn't operate the way in which you think it does, and I see that all the time as the recipient of pitches.

但你需要明白的是，你正在进入一个可能不会按照你想象的方式运作的世界，而我作为投球的接受者一直看到这一点。

People don't understand who they're reaching out to and how I and my colleagues think.

人们不明白他们在向谁伸出援手，也不明白我和我的同事是如何思考的。

We should maybe even start with that because a really important thing to understand just again, to go to -

我们甚至应该从这一点开始，因为再次理解非常重要的事情，去 -

Jason Feifer: ...

杰森·费弗：……

yeah, the metaphor of the investors, you don't reach out to an investor if you don't understand what that investor does, what they're interested in, or what kinds of companies they invest in.

是的，用投资者的比喻来说，如果你不了解投资者做什么，他们对什么感兴趣，或者他们投资什么样的公司，那么你就不会接触投资者。

You can't do that with media, either.

媒体也无法做到这一点。

So I get pitches every single day along the lines of, "How do I get coverage in Entrepreneur Magazine?

因此，我每天都会收到这样的宣传：“如何获得《企业家杂志》的报道？

How do I get a feature in Entrepreneur Magazine?" And to me, it always feels like they're ordering a hamburger from me.

我如何获得《企业家杂志》的专题报道？”对我来说，总感觉他们在向我订购汉堡。

Like, "How do I get a hamburger from Entrepreneur Hamburgers, right?" They're treating me like a service provider.

就像，“我如何从企业家汉堡那里得到一个汉堡，对吧？”他们对待我就像对待服务提供商一样。

That my job is to provide press.

我的工作是提供新闻。

Jason Feifer: And I get it because, of course, if you're an entrepreneur, and you're looking for press, then the...

贾森·费弗：我明白了，因为，当然，如果你是一名企业家，并且你正在寻找媒体，那么......

writers and editors out there seem to be in the business of writing about people, and therefore, there's some service that they seem to provide, and you're trying to figure out how to get it.

作家和编辑似乎从事有关人物的写作，因此，他们似乎提供了一些服务，而你正在努力弄清楚如何获得它。

But that's not how the media thinks of themselves, right.

但这不是媒体对自己的看法，对吧。

The editor, the writer, I'll just say it as plainly as possible, they don't care about you.

编辑，作者，我就尽量直白的说吧，他们不关心你。

They don't care about you.

他们不关心你。

They care about their reader, or their listener, or their viewer.

他们关心他们的读者、听众或观众。

Jason Feifer: That's who they care about.

杰森·费弗：这就是他们关心的人。

That's who they're serving.

这就是他们所服务的人。

And if you can be of use to them in sharing the kinds of information that they are looking to serve their audience, then you can get what you want, but you can't treat them like a service provider because they're not.

如果您可以帮助他们分享他们希望为受众提供服务的各种信息，那么您就可以得到您想要的东西，但您不能将他们视为服务提供商，因为他们不是。

And so you have to approach them with an understanding of what they're trying to do for their audience and how you can fit into that.

因此，你必须在接触他们时了解他们想为观众做什么以及你如何融入其中。

Because if you don't, they are not interested in you.

因为如果你不这样做，他们对你就不感兴趣。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

And more...

还有更多...

even specifically, what is it they're trying to do for their audience?

甚至具体来说，他们想为观众做什么？

I imagine it's just have something interesting that they want to read.

我想这只是他们想读的一些有趣的东西。

Something they can learn.

他们可以学到一些东西。

Something they're like, "Wow, I'm really excited to read this."

他们会说，“哇，读到这篇文章我真的很兴奋。”

Jason Feifer: Yeah.

杰森·费弗：是的。

But it's going to be more specific based on the mission of each publication.

但根据每份出版物的使命，它会更加具体。

So, for example, I've worked at two separate business titles.

举例来说，我曾在两个不同的企业工作过。

I was a senior editor at Fast Company for a number of years, and now I'm the editor-in-chief of Entrepreneur Magazine.

我曾在 Fast Company 担任高级编辑多年，现在担任《企业家》杂志的主编。

The decision that is made about whether or not a story belongs in a publication, it was totally different based on these two publications.

关于一个故事是否属于出版物的决定，根据这两种出版物是完全不同的。

So I can't speak to Fast Company now because they've gone through a couple of leadership changes.

所以我现在无法与 Fast Company 交谈，因为他们已经经历了几次领导层变动。

I don't know what their mission is, but back when I worked there under Bob Safian, he was the editor-in-chief, that was really a magazine about where businesses going, and the stories that were in the magazine were all supposed to be in some way representative of the evolution of business.

我不知道他们的使命是什么，但当我在鲍勃·萨菲安 (Bob Safian) 手下工作时，他是主编，这实际上是一本关于企业走向的杂志，杂志中的故事都应该在某种程度上代表商业的演变。

Jason Feifer: And so when people would pitch what we'd really be looking for are, are there insights into...

Jason Feifer：因此，当人们提出我们真正想要的东西时，是否有关于......的见解。

in what this person is doing that other people could read and say, "Aha, that helps me understand where this industry is going or that industry, or it helps me think about how I can shape my own company to match current trends," that kind of stuff.

其他人可以读到这个人正在做的事情并说：“啊哈，这有助于我了解这个行业或那个行业的发展方向，或者它可以帮助我思考如何塑造我自己的公司以适应当前的趋势，”之类的东西。

Entrepreneur, totally different mission.

企业家，完全不同的使命。

The way that I think of Entrepreneur is that it's not even a magazine about business.

我对《企业家》的看法是，它甚至不是一本关于商业的杂志。

It's a magazine about thinking.

这是一本关于思考的杂志。

Or what I want to do is make sure that everybody who comes to the magazine walks away with great insights into how to think through the challenges in their business.

或者我想做的是确保每个读过这本杂志的人在离开时都能获得关于如何思考业务挑战的深刻见解。

Jason Feifer: And so what I'm looking for when somebody reaches out is did they make some interesting counterintuitive decision that solved a problem in their business, and I'll emphasize in.

Jason Feifer：所以，当有人伸出援手时，我要寻找的是他们是否做出了一些有趣的违反直觉的决定来解决他们业务中的问题，我会强调这一点。

Because, oftentimes, when people hear me talk about solving problems in business, they think, "Aha, but I solve a problem in business, right.

因为，通常，当人们听到我谈论解决业务问题时，他们会想，“啊哈，但我解决了业务问题，对吧。

I saw that there weren't the best razors in the world, and I made the best razors." That's not what I'm talking about.

我发现世界上没有最好的剃须刀，但我制造了最好的剃须刀。”我说的不是这个。

What I'm talking about is...

我要说的是...

There's this woman whose name is Joelle Mertzel.

这个女人的名字叫乔尔·默策尔。

She has a company called Kitchen Concepts Unlimited, and she makes a butter dish, and it's a really smart butter dish because it is built on a hinge, right.

她有一家名为 Kitchen Concepts Unlimited 的公司，她制作了一个黄油盘，这是一个非常聪明的黄油盘，因为它是建立在铰链上的，对吧。

So this is designed to solve a very specific problem, which Lenny, I don't know if you knew this, I did not, that you don't need to refrigerate butter.

所以这是为了解决一个非常具体的问题，莱尼，我不知道你是否知道这一点，我不知道，你不需要冷藏黄油。

Did you know that?

你知道吗？

Lenny: I knew that intellectually, but I still refrigerate it.

莱尼：我理智上知道这一点，但我仍然把它冷藏起来。

I know people don't.

我知道人们不这么认为。

Jason Feifer: Me too, even though I've had multiple conversations with this woman about this.

杰森·费弗：我也是，尽管我已经与这位女士就此事进行过多次对话。

You don't need to refrigerate butter, and if you leave it out, it cuts easier.

你不需要冷藏黄油，如果你把它放在一边，它会更容易切。

It's more spreadable.

它更具有传播性。

Big problem, the butter dish.

大问题，黄油盘。

So most butter dishes you just lift up.

所以大多数黄油菜肴你只需举起即可。

And so if you have warm room temperature butter that's soft, and you lift the butter dish top up, you might bump into the butter, and it's going to make a big mess.

因此，如果你有温暖的室温软黄油，并且你将黄油盘顶部抬起，你可能会撞到黄油，并且会弄得一团糟。

So Joelle makes a butter dish on a hinge, right.

所以乔尔在铰链上做了一个黄油盘，对吧。

Opens and closes exactly the same way every single time.

每次打开和关闭的方式都完全相同。

No mess.

没有混乱。

Brilliant, solves a problem.

太棒了，解决了一个问题。

She reaches out to me about this.

她向我询问此事。

This is not interesting to us, right.

这对我们来说并不有趣，对吧。

Maybe this is interesting for a cooking magazine, right.

也许这对于一本烹饪杂志来说很有趣，对吧。

Maybe Bon Appétit is interested in this.

也许 Bon Appétit 对此感兴趣。

Entrepreneur's not interested in this because that doesn't help other entrepreneurs to have thought through that problem.

企业家对此不感兴趣，因为这无助于其他企业家思考这个问题。

Jason Feifer: But then she tells me something else.

杰森·费弗：但后来她告诉了我一些别的事情。

What she tells me is that she is, at the very beginning of this, trying to figure out how to answer some basic questions about her audience, like what colors do they want in this butter dish and what price point are they willing to pay?

她告诉我的是，她在一开始就试图弄清楚如何回答有关观众的一些基本问题，例如他们想要这个黄油盘中的什么颜色以及他们愿意支付什么价格？

And she wants to do some market research.

她想做一些市场调查。

She goes to a market research company.

她去了一家市场研究公司。

She says, "How much would it cost to research consumers and answer these questions?" They say, $10,000.

她说：“研究消费者并回答这些问题需要多少钱？”他们说，10,000 美元。

She doesn't have $10,000.

她没有一万美元。

And then, one day, she's sitting at the airport waiting to board a flight, and she looks around and she realizes that airports are full of people who have absolutely nothing better to do than answer questions about butter dishes, right.

然后，有一天，她坐在机场等待登机，环顾四周，发现机场里挤满了除了回答有关黄油菜肴的问题之外无事可做的人，对吧。

Nothing better to do, just sitting there.

没什么更好的事可做，只是坐在那里。

And you could start at gate one.

你可以从一号门开始。

By the time you get to gate eight, everyone in gate one is new.

当你到达八号门时，一号门里的每个人都是新的。

You could do it all over again, and you could have a 6:00 PM flight, and you could show up at 9:00 AM.

您可以重来一遍，您可以搭乘下午 6:00 的航班，然后在上午 9:00 到达。

Nobody's going to stop you.

没有人会阻止你。

You can do this all day in the airport.

您可以在机场一整天都这样做。

And this is how she starts to do her own market research.

这就是她开始进行自己的市场调查的方式。

She saves that $10,000, and she does it herself.

她自己存下了那 10,000 美元。

I put that story in the magazine.

我把那个故事登在了杂志上。

It's tiny.

它很小。

It's this tiny random company and this random decision.

这是一个随机的小公司和一个随机的决定。

But the reason I did it is because every time I repeat that story to entrepreneurs, they're all like, "Ugh, right, totally.

但我这样做的原因是因为每次我向企业家重复这个故事时，他们都会说，“呃，对，完全如此。

There's always other ways to do things." They love the ingenuity of it.

总是有其他方法来做事。”他们喜欢它的独创性。

That's what I'm looking for.

这就是我正在寻找的。

That's Entrepreneur's stories.

这就是企业家的故事。

So to go back to the point that you were making, it's not just about, "Well, it's a magazine called Entrepreneur.

所以回到你刚才提出的观点，这不仅仅是“嗯，这是一本叫做《企业家》的杂志。

They must write about entrepreneurs, right.

他们必须写企业家，对吧。

I'm an entrepreneur.

我是一名企业家。

I belong in Entrepreneur."

我属于企业家。”

Jason Feifer: People think that all the time.

杰森·费弗：人们一直这么认为。

No. You have to step back and read what these publications are publishing and ask yourself, "What are they doing?

不。你必须退后一步，阅读这些出版物所发表的内容，并问自己：“他们在做什么？

What is the purpose here?" The editors and the writers, they're making decisions about what goes in this magazine, and they're making decisions about how the stories are constructed.

这里的目的是什么？”编辑和作家，他们正在决定这本杂志的内容，他们正在决定如何构建故事。

Why are they doing that?

他们为什么要这么做？

Who are they trying to reach?

他们想要联系谁？

When you start to see it through that lens, you start to see the pattern, and you get an understanding a real instruction manual for what it actually means to pitch these publications.

当你开始通过这个镜头来看待它时，你开始看到其中的模式，并且你会了解一本真正的指导手册，了解推销这些出版物的实际含义。

Lenny: That is such an interesting insight.

莱尼：这是一个非常有趣的见解。

I had no idea that that was something you should be thinking about.

我不知道这是你应该考虑的事情。

Is there an easy way to understand the mission of the publication?

有没有一种简单的方法可以理解该出版物的使命？

Is there an about page they often add this to or is it, like you said, you just read a bunch of stuff and try to suss it out?

是否有一个他们经常添加此内容的“关于”页面，或者是像您所说的那样，您只是阅读了一堆内容并试图弄清楚它？

Jason Feifer: Nobody publishes an about page in that way because the internal logic of the editorial team.

Jason Feifer：没有人以这种方式发布“关于”页面，因为编辑团队的内部逻辑。

But you can certainly make some starting assumptions based on who the publication is trying to reach.

但你当然可以根据出版物试图接触的对象做出一些初步假设。

Everybody is trying to reach somebody.

每个人都在试图联系某人。

It gets more complicated the more general interest something becomes, right.

某件事变得越普遍，它就会变得越复杂，对吧。

What is the New York Times?

什么是《纽约时报》？

Jason Feifer: What is the mission?

杰森·费弗：使命是什么？

That's a hard thing to answer.

这是一件很难回答的事情。

You sort of have to divide it up into sections, right.

你必须把它分成几个部分，对吧。

The mission of the National News Desk is different from the mission of the Business Desk, and even within there, the mission of the Sunday business section is different from the mission of the Monday to Saturday business section.

国家新闻台的使命与商务台的使命不同，即使在其中，周日商务部的使命也不同于周一至周六商务部的使命。

Jason Feifer: So you have to start to really parse it out.

Jason Feifer：所以你必须开始真正解析它。

And this is the reason why people hire PR is because if they're good at their jobs, they understand a lot of this already.

这就是人们雇用公关的原因，因为如果他们擅长自己的工作，他们已经了解很多了。

But I really do think that if you spent time with the content and your starting point is, "I understand that this publication is trying to reach X.

但我确实认为，如果你花时间研究内容，你的出发点是，“我知道这份出版物正在试图达到 X。

They're trying to reach these people," then you can start to see the patterns of what it is that they're doing.

他们正试图接触这些人”，然后你就可以开始了解他们正在做的事情的模式。

How are they telling stories?

他们如何讲故事？

What do these five stories all have in common?

这五个故事有什么共同点？

They have something in common.

他们有一些共同点。

There's something that they're all doing, and you can certainly read the tea leaves and try to figure it out.

他们都在做一些事情，你当然可以阅读茶叶并尝试找出答案。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

It feels like we've already gone into step one around prep.

感觉我们已经进入了准备工作的第一步。

What else is involved in preparing to get press?

准备接受媒体采访还涉及什么？

Jason Feifer: If we're talking about prep, the very first thing that you need to do is what I had said earlier, which is just ask yourself, what do I need press for?

Jason Feifer：如果我们谈论准备，你需要做的第一件事就是我之前所说的，那就是问自己，我需要做什么？

And you need a good answer to that question.

你需要这个问题的一个好的答案。

And once you have that, the next thing you should do is you should start to think about, "Well, what's interesting about my business?

一旦你有了这个，你接下来应该做的就是开始思考，“嗯，我的生意有什么有趣的地方？

And oftentimes, it's not necessarily what you think, and you can be guided in a way by what's happening in step two, where you start to think about who you're trying to reach out to.

通常情况下，这不一定是你所想的，你可以通过第二步中发生的事情来指导，在第二步中你开始思考你想要联系的人。

Because, for example, the story that somebody might tell me at Entrepreneur is going to be different than the story that somebody might tell Cosmo.

因为，例如，有人可能在《企业家》中告诉我的故事将与有人可能在科斯莫告诉我的故事不同。

Jason Feifer: There's a reason for a company to end up in, both Entrepreneur and Cosmo, right.

Jason Feifer：一家公司最终加入 Entrepreneur 和 Cosmo 都是有原因的，对吧。

Maybe the product is for young women.

也许该产品是为年轻女性设计的。

And so, Cosmo might be interested in some kind of product feature or including the product in a roundup of some kind of products.

因此，Cosmo 可能对某种产品功能感兴趣，或者将该产品包含在某种产品的综述中。

Whereas Entrepreneur would do the entrepreneur-focused story.

而《企业家》则会讲述以企业家为中心的故事。

What did this founder do?

这位创始人做了什么？

How they do they write?

他们如何写作？

You can take your...

你可以带着你的...

You could think about your story and kind of break it up into a whole bunch of different little pieces and then figure out which piece goes to what media.

你可以思考你的故事，把它分成一大堆不同的小片段，然后弄清楚哪个片段会出现在什么媒体上。

But oftentimes, people make the mistake of trying to do that in reverse, which is to say that they kind of decide what narrative they would like to have out in the world, and then they just go around to different publications trying to sell them on that.

但人们常常会犯这样的错误：试图相反地做到这一点，也就是说，他们决定了自己想要在世界上发表什么样的叙述，然后他们只是去不同的出版物试图推销它们。

I get that all the time.

我一直都明白这一点。

Jason Feifer: A lot of my pitches that I'll receive in my inbox are somebody who hasn't really thought at all about what Entrepreneur publishes but instead just has something that they would like to get out into the world.

Jason Feifer：我在收件箱中收到的很多投稿都是那些根本没有真正考虑过《企业家》所发表内容的人，而只是有一些他们想向世界发布的内容。

I mean, a good kind of dumb example is, yesterday, somebody sent me an email about a company that had just hired a new president.

我的意思是，一个很好的愚蠢的例子是，昨天，有人给我发了一封电子邮件，内容是一家公司刚刚聘请了一位新总裁。

I don't care about that.

我不在乎这个。

That's not useful to my audience at all.

这对我的观众来说根本没有用。

I'm sure that there is a trade publication, right.

我确信有一份贸易出版物，对吧。

Let's say that there was a company in the restaurant industry.

假设有一家餐饮业公司。

I'm sure that a trade publication that follows the blow by blow by blow of a restaurant industry might be interested in your new president.

我确信，一家追踪餐饮业一举一动的行业出版物可能会对你们的新总统感兴趣。

But I'm not because you hiring that new president isn't useful to my audience.

但我并不是因为你雇用那位新总统对我的听众没有用。

Stories in Entrepreneur are not really about the person that I'm writing about.

《企业家》中的故事并不是真正关于我所写的人。

Jason Feifer: They're really about the audience.

杰森·费弗：他们真的是关于观众的。

They're really me serving the audience through the stories of the people I'm writing about.

他们实际上是我通过我所写的人物的故事来为观众服务。

That's not useful.

那没有用。

I wish that they had spent a moment and thought about that, but they didn't.

我希望他们能花点时间思考一下这个问题，但他们没有。

So once you start to think about who it is that you're trying to reach, you can step back and say, "Well, what part of my journey is going to be most relevant to them?

因此，一旦你开始思考你想要联系的人是谁，你就可以退后一步说：“好吧，我的旅程的哪一部分与他们最相关？

And I would push you to be really, really creative about it.

我会敦促你在这方面发挥真正、真正的创造力。

Because if you go back to the Butterie example, the butter dish, that little funny story about the airport, I mean, who else is writing about that?

因为如果你回到 Butterie 的例子，黄油盘，那个关于机场的有趣的小故事，我的意思是，还有谁在写这个？

It's not central to her story as a brand.

这并不是她品牌故事的核心。

It's not central to her sales pitch.

这并不是她推销的核心内容。

It was-

那是——

Jason Feifer: ...

杰森·费弗：……

central to her story as a brand, it's not central to her sales pitch.

这是她作为一个品牌的故事的核心，但并不是她销售宣传的核心。

It was just for us.

这只是为了我们。

We were probably the only publication in the world who cared about that, but I really cared about it.

我们可能是世界上唯一关心这一点的出版物，但我真的很关心它。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so just kind of summarizing what you shared, think about the goal.

好的，总结一下您分享的内容，思考一下目标。

What are you trying to get out of press?

你想从媒体中隐瞒什么？

Goals could be awareness of what we've done, something new, investor interest.

目标可以是对我们所做的事情的认识、新事物、投资者的兴趣。

What are some other common examples of goals that you see for trying to get press?

您认为试图获得媒体关注的其他一些常见目标示例有哪些？

Jason Feifer: Yeah, awareness of something new.

Jason Feifer：是的，对新事物的认识。

But also doesn't have to be awareness of something new, it could just be continued growth, trying to reach into a new marketplace.

但也不一定要意识到新事物，它可能只是持续增长，试图进入新市场。

That's fine.

没关系。

Anything that's tied to growth or reaching a new customer base-

任何与增长或接触新客户群相关的事情-

Jason Feifer: But it could also be that you're looking to position yourself in your own marketplace a little differently.

Jason Feifer：但也可能是您希望在自己的市场中以稍微不同的方式定位自己。

I see, for example, a lot of people, a lot of big companies, keep knocking on my door because we don't just hear from startups, we hear from major companies as well who are pitching stories.

例如，我看到很多人、很多大公司不断敲我的门，因为我们不仅听到初创公司的声音，还听到大公司的声音，他们正在推销故事。

I know why they want to be an entrepreneur.

我知道他们为什么想成为一名企业家。

They want to be an entrepreneur because they're trying to position their brand as also being relevant to small business owners.

他们想成为一名企业家，因为他们试图将自己的品牌定位为与小企业主相关。

It's helpful to have that kind of context because coverage an entrepreneur can help them go out to the marketplace and say, "Look, we're also reaching X, Y, Z people."

拥有这种背景很有帮助，因为企业家的报道可以帮助他们走向市场并说：“看，我们也接触到了 X、Y、Z 人。”

Jason Feifer: So sometimes it's not even about a conversion, but rather it's about a positioning and that's a good reason to also maybe put forward your executives.

Jason Feifer：所以有时这甚至与转换无关，而是与定位有关，这也是推荐您的高管的一个很好的理由。

Sometimes it's just about establishing your CEO or your founder as an authority in a particular area because you want them to be more trustworthy, you want them to be invited to more conferences.

有时，这只是让你的首席执行官或创始人成为特定领域的权威，因为你希望他们更值得信赖，你希望他们被邀请参加更多会议。

Because all of that stuff draws more attention to the company, all sorts of reasons to do this stuff.

因为所有这些事情都会吸引更多的注意力到公司，所以有各种各样的理由来做这些事情。

And then trying to get in front of investors, trying to get in front of partners.

然后试图出现在投资者、合作伙伴面前。

Look, there's a million reasons why being visible can be useful, but you need to make sure you understand what you're actually trying to do.

听着，有一百万个理由说明为什么可见是有用的，但你需要确保你明白你真正想要做什么。

Lenny: Okay, awesome.

莱尼：好的，太棒了。

That was really helpful.

这真的很有帮助。

So think about what goal you have in mind for getting press, pick a publication and understand their mission and what their goals are.

因此，请考虑一下您获得新闻报道的目标是什么，选择出版物并了解他们的使命和目标是什么。

And then think about some interesting stories that you could pitch them.

然后想一些你可以向他们推销的有趣故事。

Not just like we have a new president, but something that you think they'd be excited to share that connects with their mission.

不仅像我们有了一位新总统，而且你认为他们会很高兴分享与他们的使命相关的东西。

Lenny: Kind of on this topic, I know we want to talk about who to contact and how to figure out who to actually talk to.

莱尼：关于这个话题，我知道我们想讨论该联系谁以及如何确定真正与谁交谈。

A couple of questions that come to mind.

我想到了几个问题。

This is all a lot of work.

这需要大量的工作。

Founders are really busy.

创始人真的很忙。

Lenny: So begs the question, PR agencies, do you have a perspective on would you recommend working with PR agency?

莱尼：那么问题来了，公关机构，您是否建议与公关机构合作？

Is there a time when it makes to and doesn't make sense to?

是否存在有意义和无意义的时刻？

Jason Feifer: Yeah, I mean it's a ton of work.

Jason Feifer：是的，我的意思是这是大量的工作。

Everything that I'm describing is a ton of work.

我所描述的一切都是大量的工作。

And let me be clear, people succeed in getting press without doing any of the things that I'm describing because dumb luck happens in the world.

让我明确一点，人们在不做我所描述的任何事情的情况下就成功地获得了媒体的关注，因为世界上总会有运气不佳的事情发生。

You could very well just bang out an email to some random editor and they might like it.

您很可能只是向某个随机编辑发送一封电子邮件，他们可能会喜欢。

That is entirely possible.

这是完全有可能的。

You could disregard everything that I've just said.

你可以无视我刚才所说的一切。

What I'm really helping you do is try to optimize your approach.

我真正帮助你做的是尝试优化你的方法。

But yeah, hiring PR can cut out a lot of this.

但是，是的，聘请公关可以减少很多这样的事情。

Now you're not doing this research yourself, you're not thinking through these challenges yourself.

现在你不是自己做这项研究，你不是自己思考这些挑战。

You're working with people who understand exactly how to identify the most interesting parts of your story and then turn them into good pitches.

你正在与那些准确了解如何识别你的故事中最有趣的部分，然后将其转化为良好的宣传的人一起工作。

So why wouldn't everyone do that?

那么为什么不是每个人都这样做呢？

The couple reasons.

夫妻俩理由。

Number one, cost PR can be expensive, so you just have to factor that in.

第一，公关成本可能很昂贵，所以你只需要考虑到这一点。

Number two, PR is and can be, I'll say can be, a very frustrating journey because a lot of PR people are very bad at their jobs.

第二，公关现在是，也可能是，我会说可以是，一个非常令人沮丧的旅程，因为很多公关人员的工作非常糟糕。

They're very bad.

他们很糟糕。

Jason Feifer: And this isn't just me bashing PR people.

贾森·费弗：这不仅仅是我在抨击公关人员。

I have literally been hired to give keynotes at PR industry conferences.

我确实被聘请在公关行业会议上发表主题演讲。

And I get on stage and I say most PR people are bad at their jobs and everybody nods.

当我上台时，我说大多数公关人员的工作都很糟糕，每个人都点头。

And they all know it.

他们都知道这一点。

And of course, none of them think that they're one of the bad ones, but they all know it.

当然，他们中没有人认为自己是坏人之一，但他们都知道这一点。

PR is full of people who are bad at their jobs.

公关中充满了不擅长工作的人。

Why are they bad at their jobs?

为什么他们的工作表现不佳？

They're bad at their jobs because they're lazy, because they're primarily relying upon email blasts, just sending things out, because they have a older idea of what it means to get the word out.

他们的工作表现不佳，因为他们很懒，因为他们主要依靠电子邮件群发，只是将东西发送出去，因为他们对传播信息的含义有更古老的想法。

For example, if you hire or talk to a PR agency and one of the things that they recommend doing that you should spend money on is a press release, like a traditional press release, run as fast as you can away from that.

例如，如果您雇用或与公关机构交谈，他们建议您做的其中一件应该花钱的事情是新闻稿，就像传统的新闻稿一样，请尽快远离它。

I don't know if you know this.

我不知道你是否知道这一点。

Do you know this?

你知道这个吗？

The press release, there are some purposeful reasons to put out a press release, but the press release is really no longer the primary unit of press attraction.

新闻稿，有一些有目的的理由发布新闻稿，但新闻稿确实不再是新闻吸引力的主要单位。

Jason Feifer: Yeah.

杰森·费弗：是的。

But here's what's fascinating.

但这就是令人着迷的地方。

So a PR agency I wouldn't recommend might do this.

所以我不推荐的公关机构可能会这样做。

They'll tell you, "We're going to put together a press release about this new thing, so you have to pay a little extra money for the production of this press release and then also the distribution of this press release because what we're going to do is we're going to put it out on the wire," because there are a whole bunch of press release distribution wires.

他们会告诉你，“我们要整理一份关于这个新事物的新闻稿，所以你必须为这份新闻稿的制作和分发这份新闻稿支付一点额外的钱，因为我们要做的就是把它发布到网上，”因为有一大堆新闻稿的分发线路。

So they'll do that, you'll pay the money, it'll go out on the wire.

所以他们会这么做，你付钱，钱就会通过电汇发出。

And then they'll send you a report about all the places that this press release ended up on.

然后他们会向您发送一份有关此新闻稿最终到达的所有地点的报告。

It ended up on Yahoo Finance, it ended up on Market Watch.

它最终出现在雅虎财经上，最终出现在市场观察上。

And it technically did.

从技术上来说确实如此。

The press release is there, it was posted.

新闻稿就在那里，已经发布了。

And zero people are going to see it in the whole world because Yahoo Finance has a section where they just publish every damn press release that gets published by all these different distributors.

全世界都会有零人看到它，因为雅虎财经有一个部分，他们只发布所有这些不同发行商发布的每一篇该死的新闻稿。

Nobody saw that.

没有人看到这一点。

Jason Feifer: So don't confuse posting press releases even on very big websites with actual success.

Jason Feifer：因此，不要将在非常大的网站上发布新闻稿与实际成功混为一谈。

What you want in an actual PR person is someone who traffics in one thing, and that is relationships.

你想要的真正的公关人员是只擅长一件事的人，那就是人际关系。

The most important thing that a PR person can have is active relationships with people in media.

公关人员最重要的是与媒体人士保持积极的关系。

Why?

为什么？

If a PR person is guaranteeing you press, that's another reason to run out the door as fast as possible because the PR people cannot control this.

如果公关人员保证给你施压，这就是尽快跑出去的另一个原因，因为公关人员无法控制这一点。

Writers and editors, they do what they want.

作家和编辑，他们做他们想做的事。

It's a completely subjective industry and very frustrating.

这是一个完全主观的行业，非常令人沮丧。

I completely understand.

我完全明白。

That was totally subjective.

这完全是主观的。

So the best that a PR person can do is shape your story, understand who to pitch, and then get that writer or editor to look at it, to pay attention to it.

因此，公关人员能做的最好的事情就是塑造你的故事，了解向谁推销，然后让作家或编辑查看并关注它。

There are some PR people in this world who I think very highly of.

这个世界上有一些我非常欣赏的公关人员。

I think they're incredibly smart, incredibly good at what they do, and they only pitch me when they have something that they think I will genuinely be interested in.

我认为他们非常聪明，非常擅长他们所做的事情，他们只有在他们认为我真正感兴趣的东西时才向我推销。

Instead of a lot of PR people who just send me some random thing every week or every day.

而不是很多公关人员每周或每天都给我发一些随机的东西。

Jason Feifer: I don't pay attention to those people.

Jason Feifer：我不关注那些人。

But, I don't know, just shout out, when John Beer from Jack Taylor PR sends me ...

但是，我不知道，只是大声喊出来，当杰克泰勒公关的约翰比尔发给我......

John, I met him in a PR capacity a decade ago and we've since become friends.

约翰，十年前我以公关身份认识了他，从那时起我们就成为了朋友。

When he emails me, I pay attention.

当他给我发电子邮件时，我会注意。

I don't write about it all the time.

我并不总是写这件事。

I'm not going to write about something just because I like John, but I will pay attention.

我不会仅仅因为喜欢约翰就写一些东西，但我会注意。

And paying attention honestly is half the battle because people in media are getting so much email.

诚实地关注是成功的一半，因为媒体人员收到了大量的电子邮件。

So you want someone who's going to understand you, understand your industry, understand and know the people who they should be reaching out to, and who really respect you as an entrepreneur and are going to give you the hard feedback.

因此，您需要一个能够了解您、了解您的行业、了解并了解他们应该接触的人、真正尊重您作为企业家并会给您提供严格反馈的人。

Because there are a lot of people who will go and hire PR and they'll say, "I want you to email this and this and this and this and this publication."

因为有很多人会去聘请公关，他们会说：“我希望你通过电子邮件发送这个、这个、这个、这个、这个出版物。”

Jason Feifer: And if the PR person just does that, all they're doing is annoying their contacts if they don't really feel like this was meaningful.

Jason Feifer：如果公关人员这么做，他们所做的就是惹恼他们的联系人，如果他们真的觉得这没有意义的话。

You should like when a PR person pushes back on you and says, "You know what?

当公关人员反驳你并说：“你知道吗？

I don't think that your story is right for that publication.

我认为你的故事不适合该出版物。

Here's why." That's someone you should hire.

这就是原因。”那是你应该雇用的人。

Lenny: Is there any other PR people you want to call out as ones that you think are awesome?

莱尼：还有其他你认为很棒的公关人员吗？

Jason Feifer: The challenge here is that I'm going to regret not including a whole bunch of people who don't pop to mind immediately, but-

杰森·费弗：这里的挑战是，我会后悔没有把一大群没有立即浮现在脑海中的人包括在内，但是——

Lenny: We can include them in the show notes, whoever else.

莱尼：我们可以将他们包括在演出笔记中，无论是谁。

Jason Feifer: Yeah, sure.

杰森·费弗：是的，当然。

Okay, so let's see.

好吧，让我们看看。

Off the top of my head, so John of Jack Taylor, he does a lot of wellness stuff.

我突然想到，约翰·杰克·泰勒（John of Jack Taylor）做了很多健康方面的事情。

So PR agencies tend to specialize, and so you want to make sure that you're going with people who really understand you and the media ecosystem that you are reaching out to.

因此，公关机构倾向于专业化，因此您需要确保与真正了解您以及您所接触的媒体生态系统的人合作。

So I think John's really smart.

所以我认为约翰真的很聪明。

Let's see.

让我们来看看。

Hannah Lee at Hannah Lee Communications is great on hospitality stuff.

Hannah Lee Communications 的 Hannah Lee 非常擅长接待工作。

So restaurants, hotels, booze, they're really smart.

所以餐馆、酒店、酒，他们真的很聪明。

Jen Sesquila, sorry Jen, if I mispronounced your name.

Jen Sesquila，对不起，Jen，如果我念错了你的名字。

Max Borges Agency, really good on sort of consumer focused products.

Max Borges Agency，非常擅长以消费者为中心的产品。

Greg Delman, he's based in San Francisco, he has a boutique shop called G3 Media and he does a lot of tech startups stuff, just really knows that world.

Greg Delman，他住在旧金山，有一家名为 G3 Media 的精品店，他做了很多科技初创公司的工作，他非常了解这个世界。

Greg, I'll find writers through Greg because he just knows everybody.

格雷格，我会通过格雷格找到作家，因为他认识每个人。

I just texted him recently and I was like, "I need somebody who can write about this very specific AI thing." He happened to be at TechCrunch Disrupt and he found some freelancer and connected us.

我最近刚刚给他发了短信，我说：“我需要一个可以写关于这个非常具体的人工智能事物的人。”他碰巧在 TechCrunch Disrupt，他找到了一些自由职业者并联系了我们。

That's great.

那太棒了。

So those are four.

所以这是四个。

I will have more that'll give you for the show notes.

我会给你更多的演出笔记。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

This is really useful.

这真的很有用。

If any come to mind as we're chatting, feel free to shout them out again.

如果我们在聊天时想起任何内容，请随时大声喊出来。

Similar question, when people are thinking about publications to go after, say you're a startup founder.

类似的问题，当人们考虑要追求的出版物时，假设你是一家初创公司的创始人。

Is there a list you could just share of just like, here's probably the top five, 10 that you should be thinking about?

是否有一个您可以分享的列表，就像这可能是您应该考虑的前 5 名、10 名？

The obvious ones, you talked about entrepreneur, Company, TechCrunch obviously comes to mind.

显而易见的是，您谈到企业家、公司时，TechCrunch 显然会浮现在脑海中。

Is there others that are just like, "Here's a good list to start with?"

是否还有其他人会说，“这是一个很好的开始清单？”

Jason Feifer: Honestly, it really, so much depends upon what it is that you're looking to do.

Jason Feifer：老实说，这很大程度上取决于您想要做什么。

You could be a startup, founder and entrepreneur and Inc and Fast Company are for maybe some good reason not at the top of your list because you're a startup founder, but your goal right now is to reach consumers.

您可以是一家初创公司、创始人和企业家，而 Inc 和 Fast Company 可能出于某种充分的原因不在您的列表中名列前茅，因为您是一家初创公司创始人，但您现在的目标是接触消费者。

And those publications don't reach consumers and they don't reach people who are in a buying mindset.

这些出版物无法接触到消费者，也无法接触到有购买心态的人。

They reach people who are in a creating mindset.

他们接触的是具有创造思维的人。

So I would expect that if you have a startup and that startup is not B2B in some way, that it would be possibly very reasonable that business publications might not be your target right now.

因此，我预计，如果您有一家初创公司，并且该初创公司在某种程度上不是 B2B，那么商业出版物可能不是您现在的目标，这可能是非常合理的。

Maybe Men's Health is.

也许男性健康是。

Maybe, I don't know, anything could be.

也许，我不知道，任何事都可能发生。

I think oftentimes people tend to think too close to them about where they belong.

我认为人们常常倾向于对他们的归属想得太近。

Lenny, here's a real kind of exchange that happens, which is if somebody will email me, I don't respond to every publicist.

莱尼，这是一种真实的交流，如果有人给我发电子邮件，我不会回复每个公关人员。

Jason Feifer: It's just literally not possible.

Jason Feifer：这实际上是不可能的。

I would not have enough time in the day.

我白天的时间不够。

I do do my best to respond to every entrepreneur who reaches out because I feel like they deserve a response.

我尽力回应每一位伸出援手的企业家，因为我觉得他们应该得到回应。

And sometimes somebody will email me and they'll send me something and it's just not relevant.

有时有人会给我发电子邮件，然后给我发一些不相关的东西。

And I'll reply and I'll just say, "Hey, thanks.

我会回复，只是说：“嘿，谢谢。

Congratulations on what you've built.

恭喜您所构建的内容。

But this isn't a fit for entrepreneur." And maybe once a month somebody responds really in a testy way, and they're like, "But don't you write about entrepreneurs?

但这不适合企业家。”也许每个月都会有人以一种暴躁的方式回应，他们会说，“但是你不是写企业家的吗？

I'm a great entrepreneur success story." It's like, no, that's not what we do.

我是一个伟大的企业家的成功故事。”就像，不，那不是我们所做的。

Yes, entrepreneurs are featured in our stories, but no, we're not just a directory of entrepreneurs.

是的，企业家出现在我们的故事中，但不，我们不仅仅是企业家名录。

Here's a good way of thinking about it.

这是一个很好的思考方式。

If you have a startup and you're trying to figure out what publications to be in, go look at where your competitors have been featured.

如果您有一家初创公司，并且想弄清楚要在哪些出版物上发表，请看看您的竞争对手在哪些出版物上发表过文章。

That's a great place to start.

这是一个很好的起点。

What audiences are they reaching and how are they doing it?

他们的目标受众是哪些？他们是如何做到这一点的？

That should give you some direction about where you might want to go next.

这应该会给你一些关于你下一步可能想去哪里的指导。

Lenny: Awesome advice.

莱尼：很棒的建议。

On TechCrunch, do you have a perspective on is it worth investing in getting featured in TechCrunch?

在 TechCrunch 上，您认为投资获得 TechCrunch 专题是否值得？

Jason Feifer: I'll tell you a sort of personal press journey moment, and then I think that it will translate into the answer for TechCrunch.

Jason Feifer：我会告诉你一个个人新闻旅程时刻，然后我认为它将转化为 TechCrunch 的答案。

Jason Feifer: Okay.

杰森·费弗：好的。

Something we haven't talked about so far yet is, and this is sort of almost skipping all the steps that we've laid out to what happens after you get the press.

到目前为止我们还没有讨论过的事情是，这几乎跳过了我们为媒体报道后所发生的事情所制定的所有步骤。

But the point of the press is sometimes to reach the people who are reading it.

但媒体的目的有时是为了传达给正在阅读它的人。

You get covered in Entrepreneur and entrepreneurs are going to read it and maybe something good will come of it.

你会读到《企业家》，企业家也会阅读它，也许会带来一些好处。

But sometimes the point of it is not to reach the people who are reading it at all.

但有时它的目的根本不是为了吸引正在阅读它的人。

Possibly a very small number of people are going to read it, which by the way is a real, real possibility.

可能只有极少数的人会读它，顺便说一下，这是一种真实的、真实的可能性。

Because although all of these publications that I have mentioned, Entrepreneur, Forbes, Fortune Inc, Fast Company, whatever, these are reaching millions of people, their websites get many, many, many millions of unique visitors each month.

因为尽管我提到的所有这些出版物，《企业家》、《福布斯》、《财富》公司、《快公司》等等，都覆盖了数百万人，但他们的网站每个月都有数以百万计的独立访问者。

That does not mean that your story is going to be read by millions of people.

这并不意味着您的故事会被数百万人阅读。

Jason Feifer: In fact, the largest possibility here is that your story will reach five to 10,000 people, a small number of people because these publications are publishing tons of stuff.

Jason Feifer：事实上，这里最大的可能性是你的故事将影响到五到一万人，只是一小部分人，因为这些出版物正在出版大量的东西。

So you might get this story, it might look awesome, it might not reach that many people.

所以你可能会得到这个故事，它可能看起来很棒，但可能不会吸引那么多人。

That might also be okay.

这也许也可以。

Because maybe the reason in your logic for why to get that kind of coverage is not to have reached that publication's audience at all anyway.

因为在你的逻辑中，为什么获得这种报道的原因可能是根本没有接触到该出版物的读者。

Maybe what it really is is to tweet it and then put some money behind promoting that tweet because then you can target that you got coverage to the people who you want to notice you got coverage.

也许真正的做法是发布推文，然后投入一些资金来推广该推文，因为这样你就可以将你的报道定位到你想要注意到你得到报道的人。

Jason Feifer: And I see a lot of people do that.

Jason Feifer：我看到很多人都这样做。

They'll take articles that we ran on Entrepreneur and they'll basically turn them into advertisements.

他们会拿我们在《企业家》上发表的文章，然后基本上把它们变成广告。

And that's really smart because what they got out of Entrepreneur was the social cachet.

这真的很聪明，因为他们从企业家那里得到的是社会声望。

It was the validation in the marketplace.

这是市场的验证。

And then they're going to do something with that themselves.

然后他们会自己做一些事情。

That's really smart.

这真的很聪明。

You also see it sometimes the reason to get coverage, it's just so you can put it on your website.

有时您也会看到它是获得报道的原因，只是这样您就可以将其放在您的网站上。

As seen in.

如中所见。

As seen in is probably more valuable than anyone actually reading that story to begin with.

正如所见，这可能比任何真正阅读该故事的人都更有价值。

They probably won't read the story.

他们可能不会读这个故事。

You might not even have to link it on the website.

您甚至可能不需要在网站上链接它。

But you could just get to say as seen in.

但你可以直接说如所见。

Because again, it gives you that validation.

因为它再次给了你这种验证。

Jason Feifer: Me personally, I am building a small podcast company with my friend Nicole Lapin.

Jason Feifer：就我个人而言，我正在与我的朋友 Nicole Lapin 建立一家小型播客公司。

Nicole Lapin is a bestselling business money expert.

妮可·拉平 (Nicole Lapin) 是一位畅销书商业理财专家。

And we have a company, she's the founder and I'm an advisor.

我们有一家公司，她是创始人，我是顾问。

And it's called Money News Network.

它叫做金钱新闻网。

We have a podcast on it called Help Wanted that we co-host together.

我们有一个名为“Help Wanted”的播客，由我们共同主持。

And we got coverage in Variety.

我们得到了《综艺》杂志的报道。

And that was the result of pounding on a lot of doors and finally getting someone at Variety to take interest and they ran an article about us.

这是我们敲了很多门，最后让 Variety 的人感兴趣的结果，他们发表了一篇关于我们的文章。

Did we get anything from that story in Variety?

我们从《综艺》的那个故事中得到了什么吗？

The answer is no, like nothing.

答案是否定的，就像什么都没有一样。

But you better believe that every email we send out to every potential advertiser, to every partner, includes the link.

但您最好相信我们发送给每个潜在广告商、每个合作伙伴的每封电子邮件都包含该链接。

Variety has covered us.

多样性已经覆盖了我们。

And I guarantee that when someone receives that email, it makes them pay more attention.

我保证，当有人收到该电子邮件时，他们会更加关注。

Jason Feifer: And I have used it many times too when I reach out to people.

Jason Feifer：当我与人们接触时，我也多次使用过它。

It just gives you that validation.

它只是给你这种验证。

So sometimes what you're looking for is a prize to walk around with.

所以有时你所寻找的是一个可以随身携带的奖品。

And I would bet that the same is true for TechCrunch, which was your original question.

我敢打赌，TechCrunch 也是如此，这是您最初的问题。

Why get the funding announcement in TechCrunch?

为何在 TechCrunch 上获取融资公告？

Probably not because anyone's going to care because they read it on TechCrunch, but now you can use that to your own means.

可能不是因为任何人都会关心，因为他们在 TechCrunch 上读过它，但现在您可以按照自己的方式使用它。

And sometimes that's more valuable than the press itself.

有时这比媒体本身更有价值。

Lenny: That is an awesome insight.

莱尼：这是一个很棒的见解。

It also makes you realize you may not feel like it was a success after spending all this time getting in a story and entrepreneurs.

它还会让你意识到，在花了这么多时间了解故事和企业家之后，你可能不会觉得这是成功的。

Like, oh, nothing happened.

就像，哦，什么也没发生。

But the benefits may come later, like weeks, months, years later when you start to share that.

但好处可能会稍后出现，比如几周、几个月、几年后，当你开始分享时。

Jason Feifer: Exactly right.

杰森·费弗：完全正确。

A lot of this is what you make of it.

其中很多都是你自己创造的。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

That was extremely interesting.

这非常有趣。

Okay, let's talk about step two.

好吧，我们来谈谈第二步。

So initially you prepped, we talked about how to think about who to go after and the mission and goals.

所以最初你做好了准备，我们讨论了如何考虑要追捕谁以及使命和目标。

Then you get to step two, which just figure out who to reach out to at a publication.

然后你就进入第二步，找出在出版物上与谁联系。

Jason Feifer: Right.

杰森·费弗：对。

So a lot of people make the mistake of emailing me.

所以很多人都犯了给我发电子邮件的错误。

If they want coverage in Entrepreneur, they email me.

如果他们想要《企业家》的报道，他们会发电子邮件给我。

And I understand why they're emailing me.

我明白他们为什么给我发电子邮件。

It's really for two reasons.

这确实有两个原因。

One, I'm the most visible editorial person at Entrepreneur.

第一，我是《企业家》杂志上最引人注目的编辑。

And so it's easy to find me, it's easy to find my email address.

所以很容易找到我，很容易找到我的电子邮件地址。

And also they just assume, well, editor in chief, making all the decisions.

而且他们只是假设，嗯，是主编，做出所有的决定。

But no. I mean, think about it.

但没有。我的意思是，想一想。

If you have a problem with a purchase that you made on Amazon, you don't email Bezos.

如果您对在亚马逊上购买的商品有疑问，您不会向贝佐斯发送电子邮件。

He's too busy.

他太忙了。

And I am not comparing myself to Bezos.

我并不是将自己与贝佐斯进行比较。

But I am the busiest editorial guy at Entrepreneur for whatever the hell that's worth.

但无论如何，我是《企业家》杂志上最忙碌的编辑。

And I'm just not the guy to pitch because my job actually isn't really to select stories that go in the magazine.

我只是不适合推销，因为我的工作实际上并不是选择杂志上的故事。

My job is to work with editors who develop their own ideas and then I get to say, "Oh, that's a good one," or, "Oh, let's refine that." I'm not sourcing as much.

我的工作是与那些提出自己想法的编辑合作，然后我会说，“哦，这是一个很好的想法”，或者，“哦，让我们完善它。”我没有那么多采购。

And so you really should start by looking at who's writing about your subject area.

因此，您确实应该首先查看谁在撰写有关您的主题领域的文章。

Jason Feifer: And you can do that by going to the website and surfing around.

Jason Feifer：您可以通过访问网站并四处冲浪来做到这一点。

You can do that by Googling around.

您可以通过谷歌搜索来做到这一点。

But you'll find the answer.

但你会找到答案的。

Every publication is structured differently.

每个出版物的结构都不同。

Some people have specific beats.

有些人有特定的节拍。

Some publications will be like, "This is the person on the transportation beat." And some publications don't.

有些出版物会这样说：“这就是交通节拍中的人。”而有些出版物则不然。

Entrepreneur doesn't really have a beat system necessarily.

企业家并不一定有一个节拍系统。

But if you look, you'll figure it out.

但如果你看一下，你就会明白。

"Oh, that editor is clearly interested in food.

“哦，那个编辑显然对食物很感兴趣。

That writer is clearly interested in food.

这位作家显然对食物很感兴趣。

They seem to write all the food stories." And a good way, again, to do it is to start with the publication and then look at how they're covering your competitors.

他们似乎写下了所有的美食故事。”同样，一个好的方法是从出版物开始，然后看看他们如何报道你的竞争对手。

So a good example is I was once consulting with a guy who has a kind of fun peanut butter company.

一个很好的例子是，我曾经咨询过一个人，他拥有一家有趣的花生酱公司。

It's like imagine peanut butter meets Ben and Jerry's, so it's like peanut butter with lots of stuff and fun names.

这就像想象花生酱遇到本和杰瑞的花生酱一样，所以它就像花生酱有很多东西和有趣的名字。

And so he's trying to figure out how to get press.

所以他正在想办法如何获得媒体的关注。

And originally his thinking, the reason why he reached out to me was because he's like, "Well, I'm an entrepreneur.

最初他的想法是，他之所以联系我是因为他说：“嗯，我是一名企业家。

I run a business.

我经营一家企业。

I should be in Entrepreneur."

我应该加入企业家。”

Jason Feifer: I was like, "No, no, no, you shouldn't because none of our readers are going to buy your peanut butter.

贾森·费弗：我当时想，“不，不，不，你不应该这样做，因为我们的读者都不会买你的花生酱。

So who is your target audience?

那么谁是你的目标受众？

Who's buying your stuff?" And he says, "Millennial moms." I said, "Great.

谁买你的东西？”他说：“千禧一代的妈妈。”我说：“太好了。

Okay, so Cosmo is a good place to reach them.

好的，Cosmo 是联系他们的好地方。

So let's look at how Cosmo covers snacks." I don't know how they cover snacks.

那么让我们看看 Cosmo 是如何涵盖零食的。”我不知道他们如何涵盖零食。

I don't read Cosmo, but let's find out.

我没读过《科斯莫》，但让我们来了解一下。

It's not hard.

这并不难。

I went to cosmopolitan.com, searched for snacks.

我去了 cosmopolitan.com，搜索零食。

What I found immediately was a lot of stories that are all basically roundup-y and anchored to some time-sensitive things.

我立即发现很多故事基本上都是综合性的，并且都与一些对时间敏感的事情有关。

So it's 10 snacks for Valentine's Day, it's our 10 favorite new fall snacks, whatever.

这是情人节的 10 种零食，这是我们最喜欢的 10 种秋季新零食，无论如何。

It's all stuff like that.

都是这样的事情。

So now we know they are not going to run a thousand word feature on your peanut butter company.

所以现在我们知道他们不会对你们的花生酱公司发表一千字的专题报道。

Instead, the best that you could hope to do is get into one of these seasonal-ish roundups.

相反，你最希望做的就是参加这些季节性的综述之一。

Jason Feifer: So now next step, who's writing these things?

Jason Feifer：那么下一步，谁在写这些东西？

Let's look.

我们来看看。

Let's open some of the articles.

让我们打开一些文章。

The byline is right there.

署名就在那里。

You can click on the byline.

您可以单击署名线。

You can see what this person does.

你可以看看这个人做了什么。

And in many cases, maybe they're the food editor, maybe they're the lifestyle editor, whatever.

在很多情况下，也许他们是食品编辑，也许他们是生活方式编辑，等等。

You'll see what they cover.

您会看到它们涵盖的内容。

And you'll have a good understanding of now how to frame the thing that you're looking for.

现在您将很好地了解如何构建您正在寻找的东西。

Now, let me introduce one other possible option.

现在，让我介绍另一种可能的选择。

They don't work for the publication at all.

他们根本不为出版物工作。

They're a freelancer.

他们是自由职业者。

Publications use a lot of freelancers.

出版物聘用了很多自由职业者。

Freelancers are basically independent contractors.

自由职业者基本上是独立承包商。

They're writers who are working sometimes.

他们是有时也在工作的作家。

Sometimes they have longer term deals with publications.

有时他们与出版物有长期协议。

Sometimes it's just one-off.

有时这只是一次性的。

My wife is a freelancer.

我的妻子是一名自由职业者。

My wife is a freelancer who writes a lot for the New York Times and Washington Post and Guardian.

我的妻子是一名自由职业者，为《纽约时报》、《华盛顿邮报》和《卫报》撰写了大量文章。

And the interesting thing about my wife versus me is that my wife, whose name is Jen Miller, just so I don't keep saying my wife.

关于我的妻子和我的有趣的事情是我的妻子，她的名字叫珍·米勒，所以我不会一直说我的妻子。

Jason Feifer: So Jen, on a day-to-day basis as a freelancer is hungrier for stories than me because Jen has to hustle for her food.

Jason Feifer：作为一名自由职业者，Jen 在日常生活中比我更渴望故事，因为 Jen 必须努力寻找食物。

Jen has to find stories and pitch those stories to editors at publications, and that's when she gets paid.

珍必须寻找故事并将这些故事提交给出版物的编辑，这就是她获得报酬的时候。

So she actually is more incentivized to be looking for stories than I am because I am a salaried employee of Entrepreneur Magazine.

所以她实际上比我更有动力去寻找故事，因为我是《企业家杂志》的一名受薪员工。

And my email address is very easily found and people just send me stuff all the time.

我的电子邮件地址很容易找到，人们总是给我发东西。

And I should add here also, note that a good journalist, a good writer is not actually sitting around thinking that their job is to wait for people to pitch them so that they can just write about the best pitches.

我还应该在这里补充一点，请注意，一个好的记者、一个好的作家实际上并不是坐在那里认为他们的工作是等待人们向他们推销，这样他们就可以写出最好的推销。

Their job as they see it, is to go and find the most useful things for their audience.

在他们看来，他们的工作就是去寻找对观众最有用的东西。

And they like to do a lot of that themselves.

他们喜欢自己做很多事情。

So they're not sitting around just waiting for your pitches.

所以他们不会只是坐等你的推介。

And in fact, your pitches have to overcome their instinct to go find things themselves.

事实上，你的推销必须克服他们自己寻找东西的本能。

Jason Feifer: So Jen is constantly hustling.

Jason Feifer：所以 Jen 一直在忙碌。

Jen is constantly talking to people.

Jen 不断地与人们交谈。

Jen is curious about the world and will spend a lot of time hunting things down.

Jen 对世界充满好奇，会花很多时间去寻找事物。

But if somebody reads a story that she wrote and says, "Ah, I think I have an idea of what this person is interested in," and then tracks her email address down and then emails her, Jen is getting a lot fewer pitches than me, the chances of her reading it are close to a hundred percent.

但如果有人读了她写的故事并说，“啊，我想我知道这个人对什么感兴趣”，然后跟踪她的电子邮件地址，然后给她发电子邮件，Jen 收到的推介比我少得多，她阅读该故事的机会接近 100%。

And the chances of her taking it seriously if it's relevant to any of the publications that she writes for is much higher than me.

如果它与她所撰写的任何出版物相关，她认真对待它的可能性比我高得多。

So sometimes going to the staff person is not actually your best move.

因此，有时去找工作人员实际上并不是最好的举动。

Finding the freelancer who's doing the work is sometimes the better move.

找到正在做这项工作的自由职业者有时是更好的举措。

Lenny: So many interesting tactical insights that you're sharing.

莱尼：您分享了很多有趣的战术见解。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

With this freelancer tip, how do you know they're freelancers?

有了这个自由职业者技巧，您如何知道他们是自由职业者？

Is there something in the byline?

署名里有什么吗？

Jason Feifer: If you find them on the publication's website so let's say that you go to Cosmo and you click on a author's bio.

Jason Feifer：如果您在出版物的网站上找到它们，那么假设您访问 Cosmo，然后单击作者的简介。

If they're staff, it'll say staff.

如果他们是员工，就会说员​​工。

If they're not staff, it'll probably say something else.

如果他们不是工作人员，它可能会说别的。

It might say writer, it might say contributor.

它可能会说作家，也可能会说贡献者。

It might say Jen Miller is a writer in Brooklyn, New York.

可以说珍·米勒是纽约布鲁克林的一名作家。

But also you can just go one extra step and just Google their name because any smart freelancer has a portfolio website where they should be very easily found.

但你也可以多走一步，用谷歌搜索他们的名字，因为任何聪明的自由职业者都有一个投资组合网站，应该很容易找到他们。

Jason Feifer: So sometimes just take their name, plug it into Google, you'll very quickly figure out who they are.

Jason Feifer：所以有时候只要把他们的名字输入谷歌，你很快就会知道他们是谁。

Lenny: Okay, so let me summarize things that you've taught us so far.

莱尼：好的，让我总结一下到目前为止你教给我们的东西。

One is think about publications that go to people that will buy your thing.

一是考虑那些会购买你的东西的人的出版物。

So in your example, Cosmo is a good example of someone who would buy this peanut butter thing.

所以在你的例子中，科斯莫是一个会购买花生酱的人的一个很好的例子。

Two is don't think of it broad thing.

二是不要将其视为广泛的事情。

Think about the writer at the thing.

想想这件事的作者。

So it's not like Cosmo would write about this.

所以科斯莫不会写这个。

It's like, who specifically at Cosmo would write about this?

就像，Cosmo 的谁会专门写这篇文章？

And we find that as go to their site, search for, you talked about search for your competitors, but I think it's even broader, just things related to your area, right?

我们发现，当访问他们的网站时，进行搜索，您谈到了对竞争对手的搜索，但我认为它更广泛，只是与您所在领域相关的事情，对吗？

.

。

Jason Feifer: Yeahs, that;s good point.

杰森·费弗：是的，这是个好观点。

Search for your category.

搜索您的类别。

Lenny: Even adjacent things probably are close enough.

莱尼：即使是相邻的事物也可能足够接近。

And then this tip about freelancers is really great, that they're hungrier and that they're more likely to respond to your pitch versus someone that's working there.

然后这个关于自由职业者的建议真的很棒，他们比在那里工作的人更渴望，并且更有可能对你的推销做出回应。

And then also this point that they're like, their assumption is this is not a good pitch and they don't want your pitch.

然后他们也认为，他们的假设是这不是一个好的推介，他们不想要你的推介。

But freelancers have a higher chance of being interested and will pay attention.

但自由职业者更有可能感兴趣并关注。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Is there anything else along this step of finding somebody at a publication that you want to share?

在寻找出版物上的人这一步骤中还有什么您想要分享的吗？

Jason Feifer: Well, the next step is going to be how to actually reach out to them and pitch.

杰森·费弗：嗯，下一步是如何真正接触他们并进行推销。

So at this stage, I think that we've fairly well covered it.

所以在这个阶段，我认为我们已经很好地涵盖了它。

And I love your summary.

我喜欢你的总结。

And just to double click on part of that, the reason why you're doing a lot of this is not just for the crazy busy work of it.

只需双击其中的一部分，您做很多这样的事情的原因不仅仅是为了它的疯狂忙碌的工作。

But it's because you have to understand that the media ...

但这是因为你必须明白媒体......

Just sort of go back to translating the media.

回到媒体翻译上来吧。

The media, which is a phrase that is used in all sorts of different ways, is a pretty bad way of actually understanding the media because the "media" makes it feel like it's a unified entity.

“媒体”这个短语有各种不同的使用方式，但它是真正理解媒体的一种非常糟糕的方式，因为“媒体”让人感觉它是一个统一的实体。

In politics, the media will be criticized as a sort of multiple publications colluding together in some way.

在政治上，媒体会被批评为多种出版物以某种方式勾结在一起。

But the way that we're talking about it is just as organizations that you're trying to reach out to.

但我们谈论它的方式就像你试图接触的组织一样。

Jason Feifer: But really and truly, these are just publishing companies made up of individuals.

Jason Feifer：但说实话，这些只是由个人组成的出版公司。

And those individuals are all making fairly subjective decisions about what it is that they're going to write about.

这些人都对他们要写的内容做出相当主观的决定。

And there are layers of approval that they have to pass through.

他们必须经过层层批准。

So nothing makes it into the print magazine, for example, without me saying yes.

例如，如果没有我同意，任何内容都不会进入印刷杂志。

But I'm also trusting my editors to be passionate about the ideas that they're finding and convince me of yes.

但我也相信我的编辑们对他们所发现的想法充满热情，并让我相信是的。

And so the thing that you are really looking to do is to find the way-

所以你真正想做的就是找到方法——

Jason Feifer: The thing that you are really looking to do is to find the way in to a publication.

Jason Feifer：你真正想做的事情是找到进入出版物的途径。

Because nothing gets covered until a single individual at a publication takes interest in you enough that they go to somebody else and say, "I think that this would be a good story," and that other person says yes.

因为除非出版物中的某个人对您足够感兴趣，以至于他们去找其他人说：“我认为这将是一个好故事”，然后其他人说是，否则什么都不会被报道。

Jason Feifer: So you have to find your way in.

杰森·费弗：所以你必须找到进去的路。

Because media is not a coordinated effort.

因为媒体并不是一种协调一致的努力。

It's a bunch of people showing up every day trying to figure out how to make the best thing for their audience.

这是一群每天出现的人，试图弄清楚如何为观众制作最好的东西。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so that's a great segue to final piece, which is actually, get someone excited and write about you.

好的，这是最后一篇文章的一个很好的延续，实际上，让某人兴奋并写下你。

Jason Feifer: This is where the rubber hits the road, okay?

Jason Feifer：这就是橡胶接触路面的地方，好吗？

So things not to do, don't call them, if you track down their phone number.

所以不要做的事情，如果你找到他们的电话号码，就不要给他们打电话。

Which is a real thing that happens.

这是真实发生的事情。

People call my personal cell phone number.

人们拨打我的私人手机号码。

Jason Feifer: It doesn't happen often, but it happens.

Jason Feifer：这种情况并不经常发生，但它确实发生了。

And I don't even know where they get it from.

我什至不知道他们从哪里得到它。

But I don't like it.

但我不喜欢它。

Jason Feifer: And media people are torn on whether or not DMs by social are an okay way to reach out.

Jason Feifer：媒体人士对于社交私信是否是一种良好的联系方式存在分歧。

I find them kind of annoying.

我觉得他们有点烦人。

Because, number one, the format doesn't lend itself very well, right?

因为，第一，这种格式不太适合，对吗？

If you write anything wrong in a DM, it just looks like this endless thing that I got.

如果你在私信中写错任何东西，它看起来就像是我收到的无穷无尽的东西。

Jason Feifer: But also, I don't know, my Instagram DMs, I just kind of don't think of as the place to be pitched.

Jason Feifer：但是，我也不知道，我的 Instagram 私信，我只是不认为这是一个可以推销的地方。

But other people don't care.

但其他人并不关心。

So I don't know, you can roll the dice on that.

所以我不知道，你可以掷骰子。

Jason Feifer: Email is just the most traditional way.

Jason Feifer：电子邮件只是最传统的方式。

If you know somebody's going to be speaking at a conference, that's great, come up, you can talk to them.

如果您知道某人将在会议上发言，那就太好了，请上来，您可以与他们交谈。

But the question of course is, what are you sending them?

但问题当然是，你要给他们发送什么？

And here's what you're sending them.

这就是您要发送给他们的内容。

Jason Feifer: You're really sending them the product of the work that you have done in the previous two steps.

Jason Feifer：您实际上是在向他们发送您在前两个步骤中所做的工作的产品。

Because you have now spent some time thinking about your story, and who you're pitching, and the publication, and how they're telling stories to their audience.

因为你现在已经花了一些时间思考你的故事、你的推销对象、出版物以及他们如何向观众讲述故事。

Jason Feifer: And then the individual person who you're reaching out to, who you now have some sense of how they write about this.

Jason Feifer：然后是你所接触的个人，你现在对他们如何写这件事有了一定的了解。

And you're taking all of that, and you're trying to distill it down into a presentation that they're going to find appealing.

你正在采取所有这些，并试图将其提炼成他们会觉得有吸引力的演示文稿。

Jason Feifer: Which again, to go back to the thing about how press is not that dissimilar to going out and raising money, that's kind of what you're doing when you go and meet an investor too.

Jason Feifer：再说一遍，媒体与出去筹集资金并没有什么不同，这也是你去见投资者时所做的事情。

Jason Feifer: If you have meetings with 10 investors, the way in which you talk about yourself and the company should not be exactly the same with those 10 investors, because they're all going to have somewhat different approaches and different thesis.

Jason Feifer：如果你与 10 位投资者会面，你谈论自己和公司的方式不应该与这 10 位投资者完全相同，因为他们都会有不同的方法和不同的论点。

Jason Feifer: And you're not trying to scam anybody, but you're just trying to be as customized as possible by building in your knowledge of what it is that they do, and what their firm does.

Jason Feifer：你并不是想欺骗任何人，而是试图通过了解他们所做的事情以及他们的公司所做的事情来尽可能定制。

And the same is true for media.

对于媒体来说也是如此。

Jason Feifer: So all of this is really going to take the form, in its most traditional sense, of a short email.

Jason Feifer：因此，所有这些实际上都将采用最传统意义上的简短电子邮件的形式。

A short email pitch.

简短的电子邮件推介。

And what does that look like?

那是什么样子的？

I mean, look, there is literally no magic answer to that.

我的意思是，看，这个问题实际上没有神奇的答案。

I wish that there was, but there is not.

我希望有，但没有。

There's no format.

没有格式啊

People always ask me, what should the subject line of the email be?

人们总是问我，电子邮件的主题行应该是什么？

Jason Feifer: That's is a good question.

杰森·费弗：这是一个很好的问题。

There's not one answer to that.

对此没有一个答案。

The closest that I can give you to an answer is that, picture me.

我能给你的最接近的答案是，想象一下我。

Picture me at my computer.

想象一下我在电脑前的样子。

I have a lot going on, and I'm glancing at my email, and 40 new emails are sitting there.

我有很多事情要做，我看了一眼我的电子邮件，发现有 40 封新电子邮件。

And my instinct is to delete all of them as fast as possible, but I'm going to glance at each one.

我的本能是尽快删除所有这些，但我会浏览每一个。

Jason Feifer: I'm not going to open each one, but I'm going to glance at it, which means that I see the subject line and I see the preview text, or just the first thing that somebody had written.

Jason Feifer：我不会打开每个内容，但我会浏览一下，这意味着我会看到主题行并看到预览文本，或者只是某人写的第一个内容。

What you want to do is write something that makes it pretty clear to me that this is targeted to me.

你想做的就是写一些东西，让我清楚地知道这是针对我的。

That's step number one.

这是第一步。

Jason Feifer: Because most of those emails that I got in my inbox are not targeted to me.

Jason Feifer：因为我收件箱中收到的大多数电子邮件都不是针对我的。

They're mass blasts, and I'm delete, delete, delete, delete, delete.

它们是大规模爆炸，我正在删除、删除、删除、删除、删除。

So which is the one that actually is reaching me?

那么到底哪一个才是真正影响我的呢？

And sometimes you can do that by referencing something that I wrote in the past.

有时你可以通过引用我过去写过的东西来做到这一点。

I see people do that a lot.

我看到人们经常这样做。

Don't fake it.

不要假装它。

People fake it all the time.

人们总是假装它。

People email me and they tell me they're fans of my work, they've never read my work.

人们给我发电子邮件，他们告诉我他们是我作品的粉丝，他们从未读过我的作品。

It's very obvious, right?

这很明显，对吧？

Don't do that.

不要那样做。

But if you've read something, or if you're familiar with something, if you're familiar with the publication in some way, any signals of that are good.

但如果你读过一些东西，或者你熟悉一些东西，如果你在某种程度上熟悉该出版物，那么任何信号都是好的。

Jason Feifer: Because again, what you're trying to do is just separate yourself from noise to, this is customized to you.

Jason Feifer：因为，你想要做的只是将自己与噪音分开，这是为你定制的。

Because If you think about it, this is really an efficiency question.

因为如果你仔细想想，这确实是一个效率问题。

What I'm trying to do is, I'm trying to spend my time on the things that have the highest percentage chance of being relevant to me.

我想做的是，我试图把时间花在与我相关的可能性最高的事情上。

And I'm filtering out the things that seem not relevant to me, who are wasting my time.

我正在过滤掉那些看起来与我无关、浪费我时间的事情。

Jason Feifer: So if I see something where somebody's writing me and they have a sense of the publication and they have a sense of me, there's a higher percentage chance that the next things that they're going to tell me are going to be relevant to me.

贾森·费弗：所以，如果我看到有人写信给我，并且他们对出版物有感觉，对我也有感觉，那么他们接下来要告诉我的事情与我相关的可能性就更高。

Maybe even turn into a story.

甚至可能会变成一个故事。

Jason Feifer: Which is great.

杰森·费弗：这太棒了。

I like when that happens.

我喜欢这种情况发生。

Because it saves me time, frankly, right?

坦白说，因为它节省了我的时间，对吗？

It's one less story I have to find myself.

这又少了一个我必须自己去寻找的故事。

So I'm happy for it, but it's got to be right.

所以我对此感到高兴，但它必须是正确的。

So you want to structure ...

所以你想要构建...

And then the email that you're writing is don't go on forever, like three paragraphs max.

然后你写的电子邮件不会永远持续下去，比如最多三段。

Jason Feifer: And you are telling the version, you're not writing an article, but you're telling me the thing that you are pretty sure I'm going to be interested in.

杰森·费弗：你在告诉版本，你不是在写一篇文章，而是在告诉我你很确定我会感兴趣的事情。

It's the difference between, going back to the butter dish example, woman sending me a three paragraph email about the butter dish itself, and opening up, telling me a little bit about the butter dish, and then immediately moving into this very clever story about the product market testing survey.

回到黄油盘的例子，女人给我发了一封关于黄油盘本身的三段电子邮件，然后开口告诉我一些关于黄油盘的事情，然后立即进入这个关于产品市场测试调查的非常聪明的故事。

Jason Feifer: That's the difference.

杰森·费弗：这就是区别。

She told me the story that was going to be relevant to my audience.

她给我讲了一个与我的听众相关的故事。

She got there quickly, and it felt like, to me, this is a interesting human being with an interesting entrepreneurial story to tell, and that's why I'm going to engage.

她很快就到了那里，对我来说，这是一个有趣的人，有一个有趣的创业故事要讲，这就是我要参与的原因。

Lenny: So that story actually came through a cold email?

莱尼：所以这个故事实际上是通过一封冷邮件传出来的？

Jason Feifer: That was a cold email.

Jason Feifer：那是一封冷冰冰的电子邮件。

Yep.

是的。

Just showed up one day.

有一天才出现。

Amazing.: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

太棒了。：这一集是由 Eppo 为您带来的。

Eppo is a next generation AB testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 AB 测试平台。

Companies like DraftKings, Zapier, ClickUp, Twitch, and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

DraftKings、Zapier、ClickUp、Twitch 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Amazing.: Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential.

令人惊奇的是：无论您在哪里工作，进行实验都变得越来越重要。

But there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern grow team stack.

但没有任何商业工具可以与现代增长团队堆栈集成。

This leads to wasted time building internal tools, or trying to run your own experiments through a clunky marketing tool.

这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具，或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行自己的实验。

Amazing.: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most about working there was our experimentation platform, where I was able to slice and dice data by device types, country, user stage.

太棒了：当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我最喜欢在那里工作的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，在这里我能够按设备类型、国家/地区、用户阶段对数据进行切片和切块。

Eppo does all that and more, delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytic cycles, and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.

Eppo 可以做到这一切，甚至更多，快速提供结果，避免烦人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。

Amazing.: Eppo lets you go beyond basic click-through metrics, and instead use your north star metrics like activation, retention, subscription and payments.

太棒了。：Eppo 可以让您超越基本的点击率指标，而是使用您的北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。

Eppo supports tests on the front end, on the backend, email marketing, even machine learning clients.

Eppo 支持前端、后端、电子邮件营销、甚至机器学习客户端的测试。

Check out Eppo at geteppo.com.

请访问 geteppo.com 查看 Eppo。

That's get Eppo.com, and 10X your experiment velocity.

这就是 Eppo.com，您的实验速度将提高 10 倍。

Amazing.: Is there any other examples that come to mind, of someone doing this well?

太棒了：还有其他人能做到这一点的例子吗？

For people to have more kind of examples of here's...

为了让人们有更多这样的例子......

Jason Feifer: Oh sure.

杰森·费弗：哦，当然。

Well here, let's see.

好吧，让我们看看。

We'll have to do this in real time here.

我们必须在这里实时执行此操作。

But I keep in my inbox a folder called Bad PR Pitches and a folder called Good PR Pitches.

但我在收件箱中保留了一个名为“Bad PR Pitches”的文件夹和一个名为“Good PR Pitches”的文件夹。

We can go through both.

我们可以两者都经历。

Jason Feifer: All right, I just pulled this up.

Jason Feifer：好吧，我刚刚把这个拉出来了。

This is, and I haven't read this in a long time.

这是，我已经很久没有读过这篇文章了。

I'm kind of trying to read ahead as I'm talking just to see if this is appropriate to read.

我正在尝试提前阅读我正在谈论的内容，看看这是否适合阅读。

But I think so.

但我认为是这样。

I don't know, whatever.

我不知道，无论如何。

We're just going to read it and see what happens.

我们只是要阅读它，看看会发生什么。

Jason Feifer: All right, so the subject of this was, "Idea for entrepreneur and Problem Solvers, how the Border Closures grew my business." So this was sent to me in September of 2020.

贾森·费弗：好吧，本次主题是“企业家和问题解决者的想法，边境关闭如何发展我的业务。”所以这是在 2020 年 9 月发送给我的。

Jason Feifer: This is good, this is good.

杰森·费弗：这很好，这很好。

This turned into an episode of a podcast that I do for Entrepreneur, and I might've also then converted it into an article I can't remember.

这变成了我为《企业家》制作的播客的一集，然后我可能还会将其转换成一篇我不记得的文章。

Jason Feifer: And so here's what she did.

杰森·费弗：这就是她所做的。

So her name, I shout her out.

所以她的名字，我大声喊出来。

So this is Meg O'Hara.

这是梅格·奥哈拉。

And Meg O'Hara is a painter, a Canadian landscape painter.

梅格·奥哈拉是一位画家，一位加拿大风景画家。

Which again, a small business.

这又是一家小企业。

Jason Feifer: And she writes, "Hi Jason, I have an idea for a story I think would be valuable and relevant to you, Entrepreneur Magazine and the Problem Solvers Podcast." That's the show I do for Entrepreneur.

杰森·费弗：她写道：“嗨，杰森，我有一个故事的想法，我认为这对您、企业家杂志和问题解决者播客来说是有价值且相关的。”这就是我为企业家做的节目。

And then she says, "Here's what's going on with my business.

然后她说：“这就是我的生意的情况。

All entrepreneurs had to be flexible during Covid.

在新冠疫情期间，所有企业家都必须保持灵活性。

This is a story about how one artist in Canada benefited from the border closure." This just sort of intrigues me.

这是一个关于加拿大一位艺术家如何从边境关闭中受益的故事。”这让我很感兴趣。

Oh, how?

哦，怎么样？

Jason Feifer: "When Covid hit in March, all ski resorts across North America shut down early.

Jason Feifer：“当新冠疫情在三月份爆发时，北美所有的滑雪胜地都提前关闭了。

Skiers are a high earning demographic in Canada.

滑雪者是加拿大的高收入群体。

They fall in the top 5% of income."

他们属于收入最高的 5%。”

Jason Feifer: Okay, well anyway.

杰森·费弗：好吧，无论如何。

So she goes on.

所以她继续说下去。

What she tells me, I remember this now, what she tells me is that her business used to be being hired by ski resorts to come and paint landscapes for their facilities.

她告诉我的，我现在记得了，她告诉我的是，她的生意以前是被滑雪场雇佣来为他们的设施画风景的。

And when the border shut down and people weren't going to these resorts anymore, she had to come up with a completely different way of doing her business.

当边境关闭并且人们不再去这些度假村时，她必须想出一种完全不同的开展业务的方式。

Jason Feifer: And so she started to think, well, I can't work for these resorts anymore.

Jason Feifer：所以她开始想，好吧，我不能再为这些度假村工作了。

They're not hiring me.

他们不雇用我。

But all these skiers who used to work at the resorts who have seen my work, or who used to ski at the resorts who were maybe familiar with my work, they're not skiing either.

但是所有这些曾经在滑雪场工作过的滑雪者看过我的作品，或者曾经在滑雪场滑雪过的可能熟悉我的作品的人，他们也不是在滑雪。

They probably are sitting around wishing that they were skiing.

他们可能坐在那儿希望自己在滑雪。

They'd love something to see of their favorite ski location, and they also have money sitting around because they're not spending it on the ski resorts.

他们希望能参观自己最喜欢的滑雪地点，而且他们也有闲钱，因为他们不会把钱花在滑雪胜地上。

Jason Feifer: So then she lists off the problems and the solutions in bullet points.

Jason Feifer：然后她用要点列出了问题和解决方案。

Which I love.

我喜欢哪个。

Because she has listened to the show, the Problem Solvers Show, which is structured in exactly that way.

因为她听过节目《问题解决者秀》，它的结构正是如此。

Tell me the problem, tell me the solution that you came to.

告诉我问题，告诉我你找到的解决方案。

So she lists it off.

所以她把它列出来了。

Jason Feifer: Here are the problems: the skiers can't come, people are spending more time at home.

贾森·费弗：问题是这样的：滑雪者不能来，人们花更多的时间在家里。

Jason Feifer: The solution: I create artwork for their homes that depicts their favorite views from skiing as they were.

Jason Feifer：解决方案：我为他们的家创作艺术品，描绘他们最喜欢的滑雪景观。

She goes on and on and on.

她继续说下去。

Jason Feifer: I read this and I just think, there is something here about what this person did to reinvent their business at a time in which one marketplace shut down, but it created a new one that I think people would like to hear.

杰森·费弗：我读到这篇文章，我只是想，在一个市场关闭的时候，这个人为重塑他们的业务所做的事情，但它创造了一个我认为人们愿意听到的新市场。

Because at that time everyone was thinking about how to reinvent themselves and their business.

因为当时每个人都在思考如何重塑自己和企业。

Jason Feifer: And even though I reach people who have very complex and large businesses, sometimes it's really a beautiful thing to hear a single individual who does the simplest thing in the world, which is put paint to canvas, talk about how she did it for herself.

杰森·费弗：尽管我接触到的人拥有非常复杂和庞大的业务，但有时听到一个人做世界上最简单的事情（将颜料涂在画布上）谈论她是如何为自己做到的，这确实是一件美妙的事情。

Because you can extract these wonderful little lessons about how to reinvent yourself that I think are going to be relevant to a very broad audience.

因为你可以提取这些关于如何重塑自己的精彩小课程，我认为这些课程将与非常广泛的受众相关。

Jason Feifer: So Meg sent me that email, I replied and I said, "I like it." And we did it.

杰森·费弗：所以梅格给我发了那封电子邮件，我回复了，我说，“我喜欢它。”我们做到了。

So that's a good example of someone who spent time understanding my work, down to the structure of how I'm communicating, and then sent me a pitch that very quickly and clearly seemed customized to me, and told me her story in a way that I could imagine telling my audience.

所以这是一个很好的例子，有人花时间了解我的工作，深入了解我的沟通方式的结构，然后给我发了一份非常快速、清晰地似乎是为我定制的宣传材料，并以我可以想象的方式告诉我的观众她的故事。

Jason Feifer: At that point, it's a pretty easy yes,

Jason Feifer：在这一点上，这很简单，是的，

Lenny: That is an amazing example.

莱尼：这是一个了不起的例子。

I just took some notes on things that she did right based on things you've shared in the past.

我只是根据你过去分享的内容，记录了她做对的事情。

Lenny: Even just from the subject line or the first sentence, it was clear that she knew you.

莱尼：即使只是从主题行或第一句话来看，很明显她认识你。

She knew you had this podcast, she knew the magazine, and she even expressed this specifically, you're going to be interested in this.

她知道你有这个播客，她知道这本杂志，她甚至明确表达了这一点，你会对这个感兴趣。

She mentioned how this, she has a story.

她提到这件事，她有一个故事。

She starts immediately with a story.

她立即​​开始讲故事。

There's not the value prop of the company, here's what we do and here's why we're awesome.

没有公司的价值支柱，这就是我们所做的，这就是我们之所以出色的原因。

And then the lessons, the mission of Entrepreneur you talked about, is insights and lessons that people achieve, and she just went straight to here's what we've learned.

然后是教训，你谈到的企业家的使命，是人们获得的见解和教训，她直接谈到了我们学到的东西。

Lenny: So I could see why that resonated.

莱尼：所以我明白为什么会引起共鸣。

Jason Feifer: Yeah, it was great.

杰森·费弗：是的，太棒了。

And the next thing that made it a real success, by the way for her, was that once I got her on the phone, she was, and I find this, this is a make or break thing for me.

顺便说一下，对她来说，真正成功的下一件事情是，一旦我给她打电话，她就，我发现，这对我来说是一个成败的事情。

Because I can talk to somebody and then kill the story, or not run the podcast.

因为我可以和某人交谈然后终止这个故事，或者不运行播客。

She was willing to be open about challenges.

她乐于接受挑战。

Jason Feifer: I mean, she had reached out because of challenges, but not everyone is.

杰森·费弗：我的意思是，她因为挑战而伸出援手，但并不是每个人都这样做。

I will get a pitch from someone who is presenting like, oh, we had this challenge in the business.

我会从某人那里得到一个推销，他会说，哦，我们在业务中遇到了这个挑战。

But then when I talk to them, they act as if there was no problem.

但当我和他们交谈时，他们表现得好像没有问题。

Or the problem was really small and their ingenuity immediately made this a very successful business.

或者问题真的很小，他们的聪明才智立即使这成为一项非常成功的业务。

And that's not interesting to me.

这对我来说并不有趣。

Jason Feifer: Because success stories are not interesting.

Jason Feifer：因为成功故事并不有趣。

They're not interesting to anybody.

他们对任何人都不感兴趣。

It's not useful for you to just hear that someone else succeeded.

仅仅听到别人成功对你来说是没有用的。

What's useful is for you to hear how someone else faced challenges that you faced.

对您有用的是听到其他人如何面对您所面临的挑战。

And got through them so that you can see.

并通过它们以便您可以看到。

Aha, that's an interesting strategy to use for me.

啊哈，这对我来说是一个有趣的策略。

Jason Feifer: I hate success stories.

杰森·费弗：我讨厌成功故事。

I love problem solving stories.

我喜欢解决问题的故事。

And that's why when I talk to an entrepreneur, I expect them to be really open about that stuff.

这就是为什么当我与企业家交谈时，我希望他们能够真正开放地谈论这些事情。

And if they're not, I basically lose interest.

如果不是，我基本上就会失去兴趣。

Lenny: The hero's journey.

莱尼：英雄之旅。

I'd love to hear another example.

我很想听另一个例子。

But before that, hearing this, obviously it takes a bunch of time to do this for a founder.

但在此之前，听到这句话，显然对于创始人来说要做这件事需要花费大量时间。

I guess, two questions.

我想，有两个问题。

Just, how many places should somebody probably try to reach out to give them a chance of being successful?

只是，人们应该尝试接触多少个地方才能给他们成功的机会？

And then do you have any thoughts on how much time they should put into something like this?

那么您对他们应该在这样的事情上投入多少时间有什么想法吗？

I know it's a very broad question.

我知道这是一个非常广泛的问题。

But, any thoughts there?

但是，有什么想法吗？

Jason Feifer: Yeah, it's a really broad question.

贾森·费弗：是的，这是一个非常广泛的问题。

So again, this is in some way why, in a large way, why a lot of people hire PR.

再说一遍，这在某种程度上是很多人聘请公关的原因。

Because PR can just move this along.

因为公关可以推动这一切。

They can reach a lot of people very fast, whereas you as an individual cannot.

他们可以很快接触到很多人，而你作为个人却不能。

Jason Feifer: One way to think about it is, you're going to be on the hunt.

Jason Feifer：一种思考方式是，你将继续狩猎。

You're going to try to make this work, and you're going to take a couple bets and hope that some of them pay off.

你将尝试让这项工作成功，你将进行一些赌注，并希望其中一些能得到回报。

Jason Feifer: Another way of thinking about it is, this is a passive activity.

Jason Feifer：另一种思考方式是，这是一种被动活动。

And I'll spend some time when I'm reading media, thinking about this, kind of developing an idea.

当我阅读媒体时，我会花一些时间思考这个问题，形成一个想法。

Another thing that you can do, follow a bunch of writers and editors on social media.

您可以做的另一件事是在社交媒体上关注一群作家和编辑。

Jason Feifer: Meg, I can't remember the order of operations here, because I know that Meg follows me on Instagram now, because she's DMd me many times.

Jason Feifer：Meg，我不记得这里的操作顺序，因为我知道 Meg 现在在 Instagram 上关注我，因为她多次私信我。

And I respond to everybody.

我对每个人都做出回应。

I can't remember if she followed me before, but she might've.

我不记得她以前是否跟踪过我，但她可能跟踪过。

And maybe she even DMd me a few times.

也许她甚至给我发了几次私信。

Usually it's somebody's responding to an Instagram story or something.

通常是某人对 Instagram 故事或其他内容的回应。

Jason Feifer: And I've seen a lot of people use this strategy with me, and I think that it's a really smart one.

Jason Feifer：我看到很多人跟我一起使用这个策略，我认为这是一个非常聪明的策略。

Which is basically, before you ever pitch, just get me to recognize your name.

基本上，在你推销之前，让我认出你的名字。

Just engage in social media in a very casual way, such that when you email me, I think, do I know who that person is?

只是以一种非常随意的方式参与社交媒体，这样当你给我发电子邮件时，我想，我知道那个人是谁吗？

Meg O'Hara, I think I know who that person is.

梅格·奥哈拉，我想我知道那个人是谁。

It just makes it more likely that I'll open the email.

它只会让我更有可能打开电子邮件。

Jason Feifer: And I see a lot of people do that.

Jason Feifer：我看到很多人都这样做。

They'll spend a long time engaging with me on social media before ever pitching me.

在向我推销之前，他们会花很长时间在社交媒体上与我互动。

I know what they're doing, I understand that it's probably calculated.

我知道他们在做什么，我知道这可能是经过算计的。

I still like it.

我还是喜欢它。

It's smart.

它很聪明。

Because it means that by the time that they've reached out, I think you have a pretty good sense of my work.

因为这意味着当他们联系我时，我认为您对我的工作已经有了很好的了解。

Which means that what you're bringing to me is probably in pretty good faith.

这意味着你带给我的东西可能是出于善意。

And for that, I like it.

为此，我喜欢它。

It's a good filter.

这是一个很好的过滤器。

Jason Feifer: So if you've been listening to this whole thing, and you're thinking, this is a tremendous amount of work, I have a new product launch, or I have a bunch of budget that I can spend on this, this individual kind of approach, it may not be for you.

Jason Feifer：所以，如果你一直在听这整件事，并且你在想，这是一项巨大的工作量，我有一个新产品发布，或者我有一大堆预算可以花在这个上，这种个人的方法，它可能不适合你。

You might want to just spend a bunch of time instead interviewing different PR firms.

您可能只想花大量时间采访不同的公关公司。

And find the one that seems most aligned with and understands your story, and your vision, and knows people in your space shortcuts a lot of this.

并找到一个看起来最符合并理解你的故事和愿景的人，并且了解你所在空间的人在这方面有很多捷径。

Jason Feifer: But even then, even then, I think that having heard this is really useful.

Jason Feifer：但即便如此，即便如此，我认为听到这个确实很有用。

Because at some point, if the PR person is successful, you are going to get on the phone with the writer or editor.

因为在某些时候，如果公关人员成功，您将与作家或编辑通电话。

And it's very useful to understand how they think.

了解他们的想法非常有用。

That they're not there to serve you.

他们不是来为你服务的。

That this isn't a service that they're providing you.

这不是他们为您提供的服务。

Jason Feifer: So you better understand what they're entering into this with, and what they have in mind.

Jason Feifer：所以你可以更好地了解他们参与此项目的目的以及他们的想法。

When they're asking you questions, they're asking questions, thinking, this is what my audience is going to be curious about.

当他们问你问题时，他们是在问问题，思考，这就是我的观众会好奇的。

This is how I'm going to drive this person in this interview towards the kinds of insights that my audience are going to find gratifying.

这就是我将如何在这次采访中推动这个人获得我的听众会感到满意的见解。

Jason Feifer: So the more that you understand who you're dealing with, the better.

Jason Feifer：所以你越了解自己在和谁打交道就越好。

Lenny: And also just having done it yourself, you'll better understand what to ask your folks, how they're going to work, find opportunities to improve the way they're operating.

莱尼：而且只要你自己做过，你就会更好地了解要向你的员工询问什么，他们将如何工作，找到机会改进他们的运作方式。

On that question of quantity, say you're doing this, say you're spending the time.

在数量问题上，假设你正在做这件事，假设你正在花费时间。

I'm going to really invest in understanding Jason and whoever else.

我将真正投入精力去了解杰森和其他人。

Lenny: Is there a rule of thumb you'd recommend?

莱尼：您有推荐的经验法则吗？

Try to do this for three publications to get one, or is it five?

尝试对三份出版物进行此操作以获得一份，还是五份？

I don't know.

我不知道。

Is there anything there that you could recommend?

有什么可以推荐的吗？

Jason Feifer: So it's really dependent upon how easy you are to write about.

贾森·费弗：所以这实际上取决于你写的容易程度。

I may just sort of note, if you are some kind of B2B service, especially in some kind of very niche or wonky space, it's going to be really hard for you to get .

我可能只是想指出，如果您从事某种 B2B 服务，尤其是在某种非常利基或不稳定的领域，那么您将很难获得。

So hard that it might actually not even be worth trying.

如此困难以至于实际上甚至不值得尝试。

Because there are other things that you can do, or things that we haven't even talked about yet.

因为还有其他事情你可以做，或者我们还没有讨论过的事情。

Jason Feifer: You could say, you know what?

杰森·费弗：你可以说，你知道吗？

Screw it.

拧紧它。

I'm not going to try to get coverage for my company.

我不会尝试为我的公司获得保险。

Why don't I just try to position myself as an expert?

我为什么不尝试将自己定位为专家呢？

Right?

正确的？

It's a totally different kind of approach.

这是一种完全不同的方法。

Where instead, what you're maybe trying to do is just hook onto the news, try to get a quote or a perspective to a reporter who might be writing about something.

相反，你可能想做的只是关注新闻，尝试向可能正在撰写某事的记者获取引述或观点。

I get these all the time.

我一直得到这些。

Jason Feifer: Something breaks, some news breaks, and people start reaching out to me.

Jason Feifer：发生了一些事情，发生了一些新闻，人们开始联系我。

And they'll say, "This just happened in the news.

他们会说：“这件事刚刚在新闻中发生过。

And my client," or sometimes just the individual, "I have this insight into this, and here's what I would say if you want to interview me."

我的客户，”或者有时只是个人，“我对此有这样的见解，如果你想采访我，我会这么说。”

Jason Feifer: It's not going to be a feature about you, You're not going to be the subject, there's no photo of you.

贾森·费弗：这不会是关于你的专题，你不会成为主题，没有你的照片。

You might get a quote.

您可能会得到报价。

You might get a quote in a story.

您可能会在故事中得到一句话。

Which again, is all you need to be able to say as featured in on your website.

同样，这就是您网站上所显示的所有内容。

So that's the reason why people do that.

这就是人们这样做的原因。

Jason Feifer: So sometimes it's about that.

Jason Feifer：所以有时就是这样。

Sometimes it's about you could just be a writer.

有时它是关于你是否可以成为一名作家。

You might try to just pitch authoritative articles by you to different publications.

您可能会尝试将您的权威文章推荐给不同的出版物。

Get yourself out in that way.

以这种方式让自己出去。

Sometimes, again, you're not going to be able to be easily written about.

有时候，你也不会轻易被人写到。

And sometimes you are.

有时你确实是这样。

Sometimes you made some insane technology that everyone's going to be talking about, and it's going to be super easy for you to get press.

有时你会创造出一些人人都会谈论的疯狂技术，而且你会很容易受到媒体的关注。

Jason Feifer: At which point your hit rate is going to be much higher.

Jason Feifer：此时你的命中率会高得多。

That's why going into this with really realistic expectations, and if you're going to work with PR, having PR who can set and hold you to those realistic expectations, can just save you a lot of heartache.

这就是为什么带着真正现实的期望进入这个领域，如果你要与公关合作，拥有可以设定并让你实现这些现实期望的公关，可以让你省去很多心痛。

Lenny: Along the same lines, there's always this idea of exclusivity and people want to write first about a thing.

莱尼：同样，总是存在这种排他性的想法，人们想首先写下某件事。

Say you talked about an awesome technology.

假设您谈论了一项很棒的技术。

Do you have advice on, do you just pitch the same thing to all of them and hope they all write about it?

你有什么建议吗？你是否只是向他们所有人推销同样的事情并希望他们都写下来？

Do you pitch them different stories?

你会向他们推销不同的故事吗？

Do you offer one an exclusive, any advice there?

您有什么独家的建议吗？

Jason Feifer: Everyone has a different approach to this.

Jason Feifer：每个人对此都有不同的方法。

The number one rule here is just, don't do it in a way that the people in media feel like you're playing them.

这里的第一条规则就是，不要让媒体人士觉得你在玩弄他们。

Because they won't have tolerance for it.

因为他们不会容忍。

I would rather walk away from something like this than do some funny dance with somebody.

我宁愿离开这样的事情，也不愿和某人一起跳一些有趣的舞蹈。

Jason Feifer: So my favorite version of this goes like this.

Jason Feifer：所以我最喜欢的版本是这样的。

Actually, there's a founder who recently, I met him years ago.

事实上，最近有一位创始人，我几年前就见过他。

So when he reached out, I recognized the name immediately.

所以当他伸出手的时候，我立刻就认出了这个名字。

And he reached out and he's like, hey, we did this really interesting thing and we haven't told anybody about it yet.

他伸出手来，说，嘿，我们做了一件非常有趣的事情，但我们还没有告诉任何人。

And I'd love to see if it's a fit for entrepreneurs.

我很想看看它是否适合企业家。

Jason Feifer: So I hop on the phone with him, and he tells me.

Jason Feifer：所以我给他打电话，他告诉了我。

And I'm not going to tell you what it's yet because we haven't run the story.

我不会告诉你它是什么，因为我们还没有播放这个故事。

But after 15, 20 minutes, I say, yeah, you know what?

但 15、20 分钟后，我说，是的，你知道吗？

This is a really interesting story.

这是一个非常有趣的故事。

Jason Feifer: And frankly, I know other media outlets are going to be interested in this too, particularly because a finance element to it.

贾森·费弗：坦率地说，我知道其他媒体也会对此感兴趣，特别是因为其中涉及财务因素。

So I think the Wall Street Journal, and Bloomberg, and those kinds of places are going to be interested in this.

所以我认为《华尔街日报》和彭博社以及类似的地方都会对此感兴趣。

Jason Feifer: He wants to go to Entrepreneur for whatever reasons he wants.

Jason Feifer：无论出于什么原因，他都想进入企业家。

I mean, I think probably two.

我的意思是，我想可能有两个。

Because number one, he wants to position himself towards that audience.

因为第一，他想将自己定位于观众。

And then number two, there's a trust factor.

第二，有一个信任因素。

He knows me in a way that he doesn't know the editors over there.

他对我的了解程度他不了解那边的编辑。

And so he feels like I'll probably treat the story more carefully.

所以他觉得我可能会更仔细地对待这个故事。

Jason Feifer: So we worked out a deal, which he proposed.

Jason Feifer：所以我们达成了一项协议，这是他提议的。

And the deal is that we'll get the exclusive, and there's going to be a three-hour window after our story runs, and then they're going to start responding to everyone else.

协议是我们将获得独家报道，并且在我们的故事播出后将有一个三个小时的窗口，然后他们将开始对其他人做出回应。

And then they're going to start talking to other people, or maybe they'll even line it up and reach out to some other media.

然后他们将开始与其他人交谈，或者甚至可能会联系其他一些媒体。

Jason Feifer: And that's fine with me.

杰森·费弗：我觉得没问题。

I understand.

我明白。

And we're going to create a little embargo window.

我们将创建一个小禁运窗口。

And we'll go first, and then they're going to talk to everybody else.

我们先走，然后他们会和其他人交谈。

Jason Feifer: Sometimes you can offer an exclusive to someone in that you are going to release the news to everybody, but only one media outlet is going to get the interview.

Jason Feifer：有时你可以向某人提供独家新闻，因为你要向所有人发布新闻，但只有一家媒体会接受采访。

Which works really well if you have a big personality.

如果你有很大的个性，这真的很有效。

Jason Feifer: So for example, recently a company that Mark Cuban has invested in offered us that, right?

贾森·费弗：例如，最近马克·库班投资的一家公司向我们提供了这一点，对吧？

They're like, we have this news.

他们说，我们有这个消息。

We're going to reach out, we're going to send the news everywhere, but we're going to give you the exclusive interview with Mark Cuban.

我们将伸出援手，我们将向各地发送新闻，但我们将为您提供马克·库班的独家专访。

He's going to do one interview and he'll do it with you.

他将接受一次采访，并且会和你一起进行。

You can parse it out in any way.

你可以用任何方式解析它。

You just want everyone to feel like you're being upfront with them.

你只是想让每个人都觉得你在和他们坦诚相待。

Lenny: And that they're getting something special, as much as possible.

莱尼：他们正在尽可能地得到一些特别的东西。

That makes sense.

这是有道理的。

Lenny: You touched on this relationship piece, and that's something I wanted to ask.

莱尼：你谈到了这个关系部分，这就是我想问的。

It feels like in tech, a lot of reporters end up writing a negative story, because a lot of times that's what people want to read.

感觉就像在科技领域，很多记者最终都写了一篇负面报道，因为很多时候这就是人们想读的。

Why is this destroying the world?

为什么这会毁灭世界？

Lenny: I actually had a fast company do a thing on me, and I talked to the reporter, and I had no idea.

莱尼：我实际上让一家快公司对我做了一件事，我和记者谈过，但我不知道。

Was he going to just completely tear me apart, or is he going to be really friendly and positive over what I'm doing?

他是要把我彻底拆散，还是会对我所做的事情表现得非常友好和积极？

And I have no idea, and it just comes out.

我不知道，结果就出来了。

Lenny: It's not like I look at it before it comes out.

莱尼：我不会在它出来之前就看它。

So do you have any just advice to give you a set, help if this is going to turn into something positive or negative?

那么，如果这会变成积极或消极的事情，你有什么公正的建议可以给你一套帮助吗？

I know you have no idea

我知道你不知道

Jason Feifer: What happened, by the way?

贾森·费弗：顺便问一下，发生了什么事？

Was it positive or negative?

是积极的还是消极的？

Lenny: I was very happy with it, yeah.

莱尼：我对此非常满意，是的。

Okay, good, good.

好的，好的，好的。

I'm glad to hear that.: So part of it is the publication itself, right?

我很高兴听到这个消息。：所以其中一部分是出版物本身，对吧？

Entrepreneur, and I would say Fast Company, are just sort of not in the business of running negative stories.

《企业家》，我想说的是《快公司》，只是不从事负面报道的业务。

And the reason is, it doesn't serve our audience.

原因是，它不服务于我们的观众。

My audience is coming to me to learn things for their business.

我的听众来找我是为了他们的业务学习知识。

Tearing somebody apart just doesn't help them in any way.

拆散某人对他们没有任何帮助。

Okay, good, good.

好的，好的，好的。

I'm glad to hear that.: So part of it is just what ecosystem are you dealing with?

我很高兴听到这个消息。：所以部分问题是您正在处理什么生态系统？

You can also look at the past work of the writer.

你也可以看看作者过去的作品。

And if you work with a PR person, it's funny because occasionally somebody has accidentally forwarded this to me, and I'll see the dossier that a PR agency will put together on me.

如果你和公关人员一起工作，这很有趣，因为偶尔有人不小心把这个转发给我，我会看到公关机构整理的关于我的档案。

Okay, good, good.

好的，好的，好的。

I'm glad to hear that.: But a PR agency, if they set you up with an interview with someone, they'll usually do some digging.

我很高兴听到这个消息。：但是公关机构，如果他们安排你采访某人，他们通常会做一些挖掘。

And they'll find, what does this person usually write about?

他们会发现，这个人通常写什么？

What kind of stories do they do?

他们又演绎了怎样的故事呢？

What are they generally interested in?

他们一般对什么感兴趣？

So you can have a sense, right?

所以你可以有一个感觉，对吗？

What kind kind of thing are they doing?

他们在做什么？

Okay, good, good.

好的，好的，好的。

I'm glad to hear that.: And past that, there's also a question of, well, what are you doing in the world, right?

我很高兴听到这个：除此之外，还有一个问题，嗯，你在这个世界上做什么，对吧？

I mean, if there is something somewhat controversial about you, and especially if you're engaging with an outlet that is interested in that kind of stuff, there's a halfway-decent chance they're at least going to explore it with you, and ask you about it.

我的意思是，如果你有一些有争议的事情，特别是如果你正在与一个对这类东西感兴趣的媒体合作，那么他们至少有可能会和你一起探索它，并询问你有关它的问题。

And if you're weird and cagey with them, they're going to think that there's more to it, and they're going to start digging more.

如果你对他们表现得很奇怪并且很谨慎，他们就会认为还有更多的事情，并且他们会开始挖掘更多。

Okay, good, good.

好的，好的，好的。

I'm glad to hear that.: But the ultimate answer here is that every part of this, and this has come through, I'm sure, in our whole conversation, every part of this process is really out of your control.

我很高兴听到这个：但最终的答案是，这一切的每一个部分，以及这一切都已经发生，我确信，在我们的整个谈话中，这个过程的每一个部分都确实超出了你的控制范围。

Does somebody pay attention to you?

有人关注你吗？

What do they write about you?

他们写了关于你的什么？

When do they write about?

他们什么时候写的？

All of it is outside of your control,

这一切都在你的掌控之外

Okay, good, good.

好的，好的，好的。

I'm glad to hear that.: Which again, is the reason why it's not smart to think about press as a primary strategy for driving growth.

我很高兴听到这个消息：这也是为什么将媒体视为推动增长的主要策略并不明智的原因。

It's a good add-on, but these people are going to do what they're going to do.

这是一个很好的附加功能，但这些人将做他们要做的事情。

And the best you can do is read the tea leaves.

你能做的最好的事情就是阅读茶叶。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

It was a very weird ...

这是一个非常奇怪的...

I don't get press often, it's not like something I pursue.

我不经常接受媒体采访，这不像我所追求的东西。

But it was just like, this is wild.

但这就像，这太疯狂了。

I'm just going to talk to this guy, and then something will come out.

我只是要和这个人谈谈，然后就会有一些结果。

I have no idea what it might be.

我不知道它可能是什么。

Lenny: He might have things wrong, because I didn't get a chance to review, and might skew things.

莱尼：他可能会做错事，因为我没有机会回顾，可能会歪曲事实。

But it's a strange experience to go through.

但这是一次奇怪的经历。

But it all worked out great.

但一切都很顺利。

Yeah, it is.

是的，确实如此。

It's very strange.: It is, it's strange.

这很奇怪。： 确实，这很奇怪。

And I find that people often don't ...

而且我发现人们常常不...

In business, people understand the structure of what's happening.

在商业中，人们了解正在发生的事情的结构。

They understand that we're a business magazine, we're going to write a story about a business.

他们知道我们是一本商业杂志，我们要写一个关于企业的故事。

It's going to take a certain form.

它将采取某种形式。

Yeah, it is.

是的，确实如此。

It's very strange.: But I've done a lot of different writing, and I have had the experience many times over my career where I will spend a lot of time with people, and they will have really no understanding of what it is that I'm doing at all.

这很奇怪。：但我写过很多不同的作品，在我的职业生涯中我多次有过这样的经历，我会花很多时间和人们在一起，而他们根本不理解我在做什么。

They can't conceptualize it.

他们无法概念化它。

Yeah, it is.

是的，确实如此。

It's very strange.: And then the story will come out and then they'll always reach out to me and they'll be like, oh, now I finally understand what you were even trying to do.

这很奇怪。：然后故事就会出来，然后他们总是会联系我，他们会说，哦，现在我终于明白你到底想做什么了。

It's fascinating.

这很有趣。

Yeah, it is.

是的，确实如此。

It's very strange.: It is a vulnerable experience, and you have to know that.

这很奇怪：这是一种脆弱的经历，你必须知道这一点。

And the more you try to control it, the more the reporter is going to be annoyed at you.

你越是试图控制它，记者就越会对你生气。

And the more, in fact, the reporter might try to take a shot at you in the story as a result.

事实上，记者可能会因此在报道中对你进行攻击。

Because they found you too controlling, because they felt like you...

因为他们发现你控制欲太强，因为他们觉得你...

Jason Feifer: They found you too controlling because they felt like you had something to hide.

Jason Feifer：他们发现你控制欲太强，因为他们觉得你有什么事情要隐瞒。

This is not a comfortable thing.

这可不是一件舒服的事情。

You have to go into this being vulnerable and you have to know that there's a chance that it could blow up in your face.

你必须面对这种脆弱，你必须知道它有可能在你脸上爆炸。

That's the price that you're paying for reaching their audience.

这就是您为吸引受众而付出的代价。

Lenny: Great advice.

莱尼：很好的建议。

How about we do just one more example of an awesome email pitch that you got and then we get to our very exciting lightning round.

我们再做一个你收到的很棒的电子邮件推介的例子怎么样，然后我们就开始我们非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Jason Feifer: I'll tell you about a pitch.

贾森·费弗：我会告诉你有关推介的事情。

I don't know that I have it in my inbox still, do I?

我不知道我的收件箱里还有它，是吗？

No, it's not there, sadly.

不，遗憾的是，它不在那里。

I'll just tell you about it.

我就告诉你一下。

Jason Feifer: Ii leads to something that is another way of thinking about getting press, which I think is really important for people to remember.

贾森·费弗（Jason Feifer）：我引出了另一种获得媒体关注的方式，我认为这对于人们记住这一点非常重要。

So far, Lenny, we've spent the majority of our time talking about press in the form of some kind of feature on you, writing about you or including you in some kind of prominent way in a story that's basically highlighting the thing that you wanted to get out there, your product or something about your business, something.

到目前为止，莱尼，我们大部分时间都在以某种关于你的专题的形式谈论媒体，写关于你的文章，或者以某种突出的方式将你纳入一个故事中，基本上强调你想要发布的东西，你的产品或有关你的业务的东西。

Then we talked a little bit about another way of doing it, which is sort of putting you out as an expert in authority.

然后我们讨论了另一种方法，即让你成为权威专家。

There's another way of thinking about this, which is that you can either create or present context in which you just happen to be a part.

还有另一种思考方式，即您可以创建或呈现您恰好参与其中的上下文。

Jason Feifer: Here's the story pitch that I got that leads into this.

Jason Feifer：这是我得到的导致这一切的故事情节。

This is years and years and years ago.

这是很多很多年前的事了。

I had just started at Entrepreneur.

我刚刚开始在企业家工作。

I hear from a guy named Fred Ruckel.

我收到一个名叫弗莱德·鲁克尔（Fred Ruckel）的人的来信。

Fred Ruckel has got a cat toy and it's called the Ripple Rug.

弗雷德·鲁克尔（Fred Ruckel）有一个猫玩具，它的名字叫“波纹地毯”。

It's basically, imagine a rug and then another rug kind on top of it, but ill-suited.

基本上，想象一张地毯，然后在它上面铺上另一种地毯，但不合适。

The rug is lumpy, there's a lot of lumps in and there are holes.

地毯凹凸不平，有很多肿块，还有洞。

This is for a cat to kind of crawl in and out these spaces and bat and do whatever cats do.

这是为了让猫可以在这些空间里爬进爬出，并进行蝙蝠所做的任何猫所做的事情。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know a cat.

我不认识猫。

He wanted to tell me about the sales of this Ripple Rug and about how the sales are skyrocketing and all the things that he thought made it special.

他想告诉我这款波纹地毯的销售情况，以及销售量如何飙升，以及他认为让它变得特别的所有因素。

It's made out of recycled bottles and whatever the stuff, made in the USA, all cool stuff, but not relevant to me because we're not cat toy monthly and we're not reaching a whole bunch of cat owners, not that I know of.

它是用回收瓶子和任何东西制成的，美国制造，都是很酷的东西，但与我无关，因为我们不是每月的猫玩具，而且我们没有接触到一大群猫主人，据我所知。

Jason Feifer: I replied and I said, what I usually say, "Congratulations on what you've built, but it's just not a fit for coverage." Now Fred stumbled his way into this, but he did really a very smart thing because what he responded with was he said, "Totally understand.

贾森·费弗：我回复了，我说的是我通常说的，“恭喜你所建造的东西，但它不适合报道。”现在弗雷德跌跌撞撞地陷入了困境，但他确实做了一件非常聪明的事情，因为他的回答是：“完全理解。

If you're ever interested in learning about a gigantic scam that's happening on Amazon and eBay that we've been caught up in, let me know." I was like, "Oh, well, yeah, I guess I am interested in hearing about that." I said, "Tell me more." He sent me this long email.

如果您有兴趣了解亚马逊和 eBay 上发生的我们陷入的巨大骗局，请告诉我。”我当时想，“哦，好吧，是的，我想我有兴趣听听这个。”我说：“告诉我更多。”他给我发了这么长的电子邮件。

Fred loves long emails, and I got him on the phone and had him explain, and finally I understood it.

弗雷德喜欢长电子邮件，我给他打电话并让他解释，最后我明白了。

Jason Feifer: This is, and maybe people are familiar with this, but this is sort of known as Amazon to eBay arbitrage.

Jason Feifer：也许人们对此很熟悉，但这有点被称为亚马逊到 eBay 的套利。

Basically the idea here is that Fred is selling his Ripple Rug on Amazon, or at least he was then, I don't know if he still is, but he's selling his Ripple Rug on Amazon.

基本上，这里的想法是弗雷德正在亚马逊上销售他的波纹地毯，或者至少他当时是，我不知道他现在是否仍然如此，但他正在亚马逊上销售他的波纹地毯。

There are a lot of people who are copying the listing for his Ripple Rug and making their own postings for it on eBay.

有很多人复制了他的波纹地毯的列表，并在 eBay 上发布了自己的帖子。

They sell it for a slightly higher price.

他们以稍高的价格出售。

Let's say that, and again, I'm making these up, but let's say the Fred is selling his Ripple Rug for $30 on Amazon, so somebody will sell it for $40 on eBay.

假设，这些都是我编造的，但假设 Fred 在亚马逊上以 30 美元的价格出售他的 Ripple 地毯，那么有人会在 eBay 上以 40 美元的价格出售它。

Then somebody buys it on eBay, they find it, they buy it on eBay, they pay $40, that person gets $40, takes $30 of it, goes to Amazon, buys the Ripple Rug, and then just has it shipped to the buyer.

然后有人在 eBay 上买了它，他们找到了它，他们在 eBay 上买了它，他们支付 40 美元，那个人得到 40 美元，拿走其中的 30 美元，去亚马逊，购买 Ripple 地毯，然后将其运送给买家。

It's arbitrage.

这是套利。

Jason Feifer: You might think, "Well, why would Fred care about this?

杰森·费弗：你可能会想，“那么，弗雷德为什么会关心这个呢？

He still gets the sale." The reason he caress about this is because the Ripple Rug shows up at the customer's house and it shows up in a Amazon box, even though they bought it on eBay.

他仍然得到了销售。”他之所以关心这个问题，是因为 Ripple 地毯出现在顾客家里，并且出现在亚马逊的盒子里，尽管他们是在 eBay 上购买的。

They think, "Why did that happen?" Then the next thing they do is they go to Amazon and they discover that it's cheaper on Amazon and now they feel ripped off.

他们想：“为什么会发生这种事？”然后他们做的下一件事就是去亚马逊，发现亚马逊上的东西更便宜，现在他们感觉被敲诈了。

Who do they feel like they got ripped off by?

他们觉得自己被谁欺骗了？

Fred, because they don't know about the arbitrage.

弗雷德，因为他们不知道套利。

They don't know that they exist.

他们不知道自己的存在。

Jason Feifer: This person who has at this point opened the cat toy and probably had their cat roll around in it, now shoves the whole thing back in a box and returns it and Fred gets dinged and that's why he doesn't like this.

杰森·费弗：这个人此时打开了猫玩具，可能让他们的猫在里面打滚，现在把整个东西塞回盒子里并归还，弗雷德被弄脏了，这就是他不喜欢这样的原因。

He has tried and tried and tried to get Amazon and eBay to stop this, but he said, "Nobody seems to care and all these small businesses are losing tons of money on returns because of this." I had never heard of this.

他曾多次尝试让亚马逊和 eBay 阻止这种行为，但他表示，“似乎没有人关心，所有这些小企业都因此损失了大量退货资金。”我从来没有听说过这个。

I thought it was fascinating.

我觉得这很有趣。

It's like a problem small business owners are dealing with.

这就像小企业主正在处理的问题。

I was like, "Fred, do you know other people who are dealing with this?" He's like, "Yeah, I talk to them on the line all the time." He sends me off.

我当时想，“弗雷德，你认识其他正在处理这个问题的人吗？”他说：“是的，我一直在网上和他们交谈。”他送我离开。

Jason Feifer: I reported this whole thing out.

贾森·费弗：我把整件事都报告了出来。

I wrote this three 4,000 word story on this thing, and Fred was the main character because he was the way to understand this problem.

我就这件事写了这个三篇四千字的故事，弗雷德是主角，因为他是理解这个问题的方式。

I did all the reporting and I contacted the platforms and I contacted the people who make the arbitrage software.

我做了所有的报告，我联系了平台，我联系了制作套利软件的人。

I did a whole report, but Fred got his press because sometimes, and here's the lesson, sometimes you are not the story, but you can be part of the story.

我做了一份完整的报告，但弗雷德得到了他的媒体，因为有时，这就是教训，有时你不是故事，但你可以成为故事的一部分。

Sometimes that means if Fred stumbled into it, but I get plenty of people who've reach out and maybe they have a real estate startup and there's something really interesting happening in the real estate space and they reach out and they tell me about this really interesting thing that's happening in the real estate space and the role that they happen to play in it.

有时这意味着如果弗雷德偶然发现了这一点，但我得到很多人伸出援手，也许他们有一家房地产初创公司，房地产领域正在发生一些非常有趣的事情，他们伸出援手，告诉我房地产领域正在发生的非常有趣的事情以及他们碰巧在其中扮演的角色。

Now I think, "Oh, well that's interesting.

现在我想，“哦，这很有趣。

Maybe there's a story about that."

也许有这样一个故事。”

Jason Feifer: My wife, the freelancer, Jen Miller, she's done this many times where she once did this story about there was a bunch of startups that were all related to helping people prepare for death in some way or another.

杰森·费弗：我的妻子，自由职业者珍·米勒，她已经做过很多次这样的事情了，她曾经做过这个故事，说有很多初创公司都与以某种方式帮助人们为死亡做好准备有关。

She's not going to write about one of them, but when somebody reached out and said, "Hey, here's a trend happening and we are one of them." Well, great, that's an interesting story.

她不会写其中的一个，但当有人伸出手来说：“嘿，这是一种趋势，我们是其中之一。”嗯，太好了，这是一个有趣的故事。

She wrote that and the company that reached out to her got kind of prominent billing because they were the ones who reached out.

她写道，与她联系的公司获得了显着的账单，因为他们是主动联系的公司。

You know Barbara Corcoran from Shark Tank?

你认识《创智赢家》里的芭芭拉·柯克兰吗？

Jason Feifer: Yeah.

杰森·费弗：是的。

She's been a regular Shark Tank since the very beginning.

她从一开始就是一个普通的创智赢家。

Jason Feifer: She made her fortune by building a real estate company called Corcoran, realtors, buy and sell property.

Jason Feifer：她通过建立一家名为 Corcoran 的房地产公司、房地产经纪人、买卖房产而致富。

The way in which she built this company is fascinating.

她创建这家公司的方式令人着迷。

Barbara, before she was Barbara Corcoran of Corcoran Realty, Barbara Corcoran was random New York City realtor Barbara from New Jersey.

芭芭拉，在她成为科克伦房地产公司的芭芭拉·科克兰之前，芭芭拉·科克兰是来自新泽西州的随机纽约市房地产经纪人芭芭拉。

She was trying to figure out a way to distinguish herself from the masses.

她试图找到一种方法，让自己与大众区分开来。

She came up with an idea which was to take her own sales data, the only window she has into the Manhattan real estate market at that time is what she is what her clients are buying and selling, which she's facilitating.

她想出了一个主意，那就是利用自己的销售数据，当时她了解曼哈顿房地产市场的唯一窗口就是她的客户所买卖的东西，她正在推动这一点。

She has that data, is going up or down relative to last year.

她有这些数据，与去年相比是上升还是下降。

She puts all this data together in what she calls the Corcoran Report, and she starts sending the Corcoran Report out to the New York Times and the New York Post and whatever.

她将所有这些数据汇总到她所谓的“科克伦报告”中，然后开始将“科克伦报告”发送给《纽约时报》和《纽约邮报》等。

Jason Feifer: Because nobody else at the time was putting together a report on the health of the Manhattan real estate market, everyone started reporting on the Corcoran Report as if it was an authoritative thing.

Jason Feifer：因为当时没有其他人编写有关曼哈顿房地产市场健康状况的报告，所以每个人都开始报道《科克伦报告》，就好像它是一个权威的东西一样。

It's produced by Barbara Corcoran, which immediately put her in the position of being an authority in this space.

它由芭芭拉·科克伦 (Barbara Corcoran) 制作，这使她立即成为该领域的权威。

That was so smart, and I see it happen all the time.

这太聪明了，我经常看到这种情况发生。

Jason Feifer: My inbox will also be filled with, for example, a company that specializes in remote work consulting.

Jason Feifer：我的收件箱也会充满，例如，一家专门从事远程工作咨询的公司。

Especially remote work consulting, you can hire them, it's a B2B service.

尤其是远程工作咨询，你可以雇佣他们，这是一个B2B服务。

It's hard to get press for that, here's what they do.

很难为此获得新闻报道，这就是他们所做的。

They pay a surveying firm to find all sorts of things.

他们付钱给一家测量公司来寻找各种各样的东西。

The top states for remote work, the top companies for remote work, the top whatever for remote work.

远程工作排名靠前的州、远程工作排名靠前的公司、远程工作排名靠前的任何地方。

They produce all these surveys and they send the surveys out.

他们制作所有这些调查并将其发送出去。

The surveys get covered because now they're creating a piece of news.

这些调查得到了报道，因为现在他们正在创造一条新闻。

They're creating some context in which they just happen to live in.

他们正在创造一些他们恰好生活在其中的环境。

Hard to write about them, this random company, but you write about the survey, that's interesting stuff.

很难写他们，这家随机公司，但你写了调查，那是有趣的东西。

Oh, it turns out that Utah is the top, I don't know if that's true, is the top state for, that's something that people will write about.

哦，原来犹他州是最高的，我不知道这是不是真的，是最高的州，这是人们会写的东西。

You're giving people things to write about.

你在给人们写东西。

Then once they do that, you are a part of the story.

一旦他们这样做了，你就成为了故事的一部分。

I get those pitches all the time.

我一直收到这些推介。

I occasionally bite on them and Fred from Ripple Rug got himself a big feature as a result.

我偶尔会咬它们，而 Ripple Rug 的 Fred 也因此得到了一个大特写。

Lenny: That's an amazing other strategy.

莱尼：这是另一个令人惊奇的策略。

I imagine if I was a founder, I'd be like, "Hmm, what trends can I think about that I can tap into?"

我想如果我是一名创始人，我会说，“嗯，我能想到哪些趋势是我可以利用的？”

Jason Feifer: Yeah.

杰森·费弗：是的。

Sometimes you have it in your own data.

有时您自己的数据中有它。

If you have a lot of data, you might, Zapier.

如果你有大量数据，你可能会这么做，Zapier。

Zapier is a great example.

扎皮尔就是一个很好的例子。

I get a pitch from Zapier every single year about the fastest growing business apps of the year based on Zapier data because they see what people are using and they just compile that together into a top 10 list and people run it.

我每年都会收到来自 Zapier 的推介，介绍基于 Zapier 数据的年度增长最快的商业应用程序，因为他们看到人们在使用什么，然后将其汇总到前 10 名列表中，然后人们运行它。

It's very smart.

它非常聪明。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

We've gone through all three steps.

我们已经完成了所有三个步骤。

Is there anything else that you wanted to touch on that we haven't touched on?

还有什么是您想谈但我们没有谈及的吗？

Anything else that you think would be really valuable for founders or product leaders trying to get press that we haven't already shared?

您认为对于试图获得媒体报道的创始人或产品领导者来说真正有价值但我们尚未分享的其他内容是什么？

Jason Feifer: This has come up in different ways, but I'll just put a point on it as a maybe final way of thinking about this.

Jason Feifer：这个问题有不同的方式出现，但我只是提出一个观点，作为思考这个问题的最终方式。

Be human, be human.

做人，做人。

Press releases don't work because they're not human.

新闻稿不起作用，因为它们不是人。

I don't like interviewing people who are on talking points because that's not human.

我不喜欢采访那些谈论要点的人，因为那不是人。

You're ultimately engaging in a human business.

你最终从事的是人类事业。

A subjective decision is being made about how to serve an audience of humans.

关于如何服务人类观众正在做出主观决定。

There's no right or wrong.

没有对错之分。

There's no way to know.

没有办法知道。

Media is a sort of barely data-driven industry because every story is kind of different.

媒体是一种几乎不由数据驱动的行业，因为每个故事都有所不同。

It's like it's hard.

好像很难啊。

It's hard to optimize the product because the product changes every minute.

产品很难优化，因为产品每分钟都在变化。

You're dealing with humans and the more that you can be human in every step of this process, when you pitch, write a human email, don't write a thing that looks like it came off of some marketing copy.

你正在与人类打交道，并且在这个过程的每一步中你都可以更加人性化，当你推销、写一封人类电子邮件时，不要写一些看起来像是来自某些营销文案的东西。

Write a human email to another human and then when that person engages with you, be very human with them.

给另一个人写一封人性化的电子邮件，然后当那个人与你互动时，以非常人性化的方式对待他们。

Jason Feifer: I mean, Lenny, the reason why that fast company reporter liked you, I am very sure was because when they got on the phone with you, you were just like a normal nice guy.

Jason Feifer：我的意思是，Lenny，那个快公司记者喜欢你的原因，我非常确定是因为当他们和你通电话时，你就像一个正常的好人。

If you presented yourself differently because you just wanted to frame yourself in some way or you felt protective or something or whatever it was, the reporter would've thought, "This guy is a dick," and he would've written a totally different story.

如果你以不同的方式展现自己，因为你只是想以某种方式塑造自己，或者你感到保护或其他什么，记者会想，“这家伙是个混蛋”，他会写一个完全不同的故事。

Jason Feifer: Be as human as you can and you will be dealing with a human who will receive that.

杰森·费弗：尽可能表现得人性化，你将面对一个能够接受这一点的人。

Lenny: Amazing advice.

莱尼：很棒的建议。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Lenny: Let's do it.

莱尼：我们开始吧。

What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Jason Feifer: Andrew Chen's, The Cold Start Problem has come up over and over again for me because they're just really great lessons about network effects.

Jason Feifer：Andrew Chen 的《冷启动问题》对我来说一次又一次地出现，因为它们是关于网络效应的非常好的课程。

I've been having a lot of conversations about anxiety and perfectionism with entrepreneurs lately, and a book by a psychotherapist named Katherine Morgan Schafler called The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control, is, I think, just a really great read.

最近，我与企业家就焦虑和完美主义进行了很多对话，我认为，心理治疗师凯瑟琳·摩根·谢夫勒（Katherine Morgan Schafler）写的一本名为《完美主义者失去控制指南》的书非常值得一读。

Lenny: Super cool.

莱尼：超级酷。

What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Jason Feifer: Movie?

杰森·费弗：电影？

I don't get to see a lot of movies these days.

这些天我看不了很多电影。

I have two little kids, but I took my eight-year old to see the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which was great and a really nice way of, I loved them as a kid, and so it was cool to see the modern version.

我有两个小孩，但我带着我八岁的孩子去看了新的《忍者神龟》，这很棒，而且是一种非常好的方式，我小时候很喜欢他们，所以看到现代版本很酷。

Then my wife and I just finished Better Call Saul like years late, but it was just perfect.

然后我和我的妻子才完成《风骚律师》，虽然晚了很多年，但它非常完美。

Lenny: I haven't watched that series yet.

莱尼：我还没看过那个系列。

I loved Breaking Bad.

我喜欢《绝命毒师》。

Jason Feifer: Oh, it's worth it.

杰森·费弗：哦，这是值得的。

You got to.

你必须这样做。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Another series I got to get started on.

我必须开始的另一个系列。

Jason Feifer: I know it's too much, too much television.

杰森·费弗：我知道电视太多太多了。

Lenny: I usually ask this next question too, like product leaders and growth people, but I'm curious what the answer for you would be is.

莱尼：我通常也会问下一个问题，就像产品领导者和增长人员一样，但我很好奇你的答案是什么。

Do you have a favorite interview question you like to ask people you're interviewing?

您有最喜欢问正在面试的人的面试问题吗？

Usually it's about people you're hiring.

通常是关于你正在雇用的人。

Lenny: Yeah, that's the ideal, but take it either way.

莱尼：是的，这是理想的情况，但无论如何都可以。

Jason Feifer: I'll take it a little bit different because we've been talking about press.

Jason Feifer：我的看法有点不同，因为我们一直在谈论媒体。

This is a really great strategy for interviewing people, and I'm going to tell it to you because I think that it's also good in any other context, and it might be a thing that somebody will do to you in an interview.

对于采访别人来说，这是一个非常好的策略，我会把它告诉你，因为我认为它在任何其他情况下也很好，而且这可能是有人在采访中对你做的事情。

My favorite strategy for interviewing people is to throw a theory at them, and I don't mean a theory of the world.

我最喜欢的访谈策略是向他们抛出一种理论，我并不是指世界理论。

I mean that maybe 10 minutes in after they have told me a couple different things and answer some different questions, I'll make a connection in my head and I'll say, "I want to run a theory by you.

我的意思是，也许在他们告诉我一些不同的事情并回答一些不同的问题之后 10 分钟，我会在脑海中建立一个联系，然后我会说，“我想由你来运行一个理论。

Do you think that the reason why you are really interested in this or you made that decision is actually because of this other thing that you told me a little bit about?"

你认为你真正对此感兴趣或做出那个决定的原因实际上是因为你告诉我的另一件事吗？”

Jason Feifer: You're listening.

杰森·费弗：你在听。

It's really active listening, and you're combining things together into some theory.

这确实是积极的倾听，你将事物组合成某种理论。

The reason why the theory works so well is because it forces people to think in real time in front of you.

该理论之所以如此有效，是因为它迫使人们在你面前实时思考。

I like that because I often interview people who have been interviewed a million times before.

我喜欢这一点，因为我经常采访那些已经被采访过一百万次的人。

I interview Jimmy Fallon and The Rock and whatever.

我采访了吉米·法伦（Jimmy Fallon）和巨石强森（The Rock）等等。

They've been interviewed a million times before, so how do you get them to think in front of you?

他们之前已经接受过一百万次采访，那么你如何让他们在你面前思考呢？

The answer is to ask them the thing that they haven't been asked.

答案是问他们那些没有被问过的事情。

What I love about the theory is that it shows them that you're really listening and you're trying to understand them.

我喜欢这个理论的地方在于，它向他们表明你正在真正倾听并且你正在努力理解他们。

"It's so interesting that you did that.

“你这么做真是太有趣了。

I wonder if it's because of," X, Y, Z thing.

我想知道这是否是因为“X、Y、Z 的事情。”

That gets them to react in a really earnest honest way.

这让他们以一种非常真诚的方式做出反应。

Jason Feifer: I would say for what it's worth, as a job candidate tactic, it's not that bad either.

Jason Feifer：我想说的是，无论它的价值如何，作为求职者的策略，它也没有那么糟糕。

My favorite job interview that I ever did as a candidate that I didn't even get the job was years and years ago, I interviewed for a job at New York Magazine.

我作为候选人做过的最喜欢的工作面试，但我什至没有得到这份工作，是很多年前，我面试了《纽约杂志》的一份工作。

I interviewed with Adam Moss, who is not there anymore, but he was the legendary editor in chief.

我采访了亚当·莫斯（Adam Moss），他已经不在了，但他是传奇的主编。

He made me, on the spot, drill down specifically into an idea.

他当场让我具体深入研究一个想法。

He was like, "What's your favorite section in Strategists," which is one of the sections of magazine.

他说，“战略家中你最喜欢的部分是什么”，这是杂志的部分之一。

I was like, "I really like the real estate section." He's like, "All right, what would be a good neighborhood that we should feature in the real estate section?" I was like, "Oh, I don't know," I named a neighborhood.

我当时想，“我真的很喜欢房地产部门。”他说：“好吧，我们应该在房地产版块中介绍什么样的好社区？”我当时想，“哦，我不知道，”我命名了一个社区。

He's like, "What would be three good elements of that?" He just kept pushing me, drill down, drill down, drill down.

他说，“其中三个好的要素是什么？”他只是不断地推动我，向下钻，向下钻，向下钻。

There was no right or wrong answer.

答案没有正确或错误之分。

He just wanted to see how I thought.

他只是想看看我是怎么想的。

I found that to be incredibly powerful, and I do a version of that when I interview people.

我发现这非常强大，当我采访别人时，我也做了一个版本。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

What is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?

您最近发现并且真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Jason Feifer: I use BIGVU, I don't even know how to pronounce it, BIGVU, B-I-G-V-U, all the time.

Jason Feifer：我使用 BIGVU，我什至不知道如何发音，BIGVU、B-I-G-V-U，一直都是。

It's a teleprompter app.

这是一个提词器应用程序。

I spent like $150 buying an actual teleprompter because I make a lot of video and that teleprompter is, it's actually for people who are just listening to this, I'm pointing at another desk across my room where it's sitting there and I've never used it.

我花了 150 美元买了一个真正的提词器，因为我制作了很多视频，而提词器实际上是为那些只是听这个的人准备的，我指着我房间对面的另一张桌子，它就放在那里，但我从未使用过它。

The reason is because then I discovered BIGVU, which is just a app that runs a teleprompter very close to the camera, either in horizontal or vertical mode.

原因是因为后来我发现了 BIGVU，它只是一个在非常靠近相机的地方运行提词器的应用程序，无论是水平还是垂直模式。

I've tested it out in a million different ways, and it really works like you're reading it and it really looks like you're looking directly at the camera.

我已经用一百万种不同的方式对其进行了测试，它的工作原理确实就像您正在阅读它一样，而且看起来真的就像您正在直视相机一样。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

It has saved me so much time.

它节省了我很多时间。

Lenny: That is cool.

莱尼：那很酷。

You basically put your phone on your screen next to the camera or wherever your camera is?

您基本上将手机放在相机旁边的屏幕上或相机所在的任何地方？

Jason Feifer: No, no, no. This would be for if you're recording, if you're recording on the phone.

杰森·费弗：不，不，不。如果您正在录音，如果您正在电话上录音，则这将适用。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

You're staring at the phone and it's telling you what to say.

你盯着手机，它会告诉你该说什么。

I get it.

我得到它。

Jason Feifer: You write a script and then you just import the script and then you choose the speed and you can fuss with it, how many words per minute, and then it'll run the text very close to where the camera lens is.

Jason Feifer：你编写一个脚本，然后导入脚本，然后选择速度，你可以对其进行大惊小怪，每分钟多少字，然后它会在非常接近相机镜头的位置运行文本。

Lenny: I'm going to check that out.

莱尼：我要去检查一下。

What is a favorite life motto that you'd like to repeat yourself, share with friends, something that comes up a lot,

您最喜欢重复、与朋友分享的人生格言是什么？

Jason Feifer: Something that I've been repeating a lot to people is something that I heard, so I recommended Katherine's book, The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control.

Jason Feifer：我经常向人们重复的事情是我听到的，所以我推荐了凯瑟琳的书《失去控制的完美主义者指南》。

I met Katherine because I, we've since become friends, but I interviewed her for the podcast when her book came out.

我认识凯瑟琳是因为我，我们后来成为了朋友，但当她的书出版时，我采访了她的播客。

We were talking about feeling overworked and being stretched too thin, and she gave me this question, which I think about almost daily, and I repeat to people all the time, and that is, "What's the point of building something if you can't maintain it?" I love that question because I, like probably everyone listening to this, pushes themselves really hard, and at some point you have to step back and think, "Am I building something where at some point there is sustainability for me here, or is this unsustainable and what's the point of building something if you can't maintain it?" It's a great reminder for why you're building something and how you have to build it.

我们正在谈论劳累过度和压力过大的感觉，她给了我这个问题，我几乎每天都会思考这个问题，并且我一直向人们重复，那就是：“如果你无法维护它，那么构建它有什么意义？”我喜欢这个问题，因为我可能像每个听这个问题的人一样，非常努力地推动自己，在某些时候你必须退后一步思考，“我是否在构建一些东西，在某些时候对我来说是可持续的，或者这是不可持续的，如果你无法维护它，那么构建一些东西有什么意义呢？”它很好地提醒了你为什么要构建某些东西以及如何构建它。

Lenny: I have a very similar quote that my sister's partner once said that has stuck with me forever, which is, "Life is maintenance.

莱尼：我姐姐的伴侣曾经说过一句非常相似的名言，这句话一直困扰着我，那就是“生活就是维护。

Basically everything that you buy or bring into your life, you have to maintain."

基本上，你购买或带入生活的所有东西都必须维护。”

Lenny: We got a new air conditioner.

莱尼：我们买了一台新空调。

Now, we have a guy that comes every year to check it.

现在，我们有一个人每年都会来检查。

You got a generator, someone's got to check that thing all the time.

你有一台发电机，必须有人一直检查它。

We got a toy, now I got to think about where does it go and do we throw it away?

我们有一个玩具，现在我必须考虑它去了哪里，我们要把它扔掉吗？

Do we keep it?

我们保留它吗？

Everything that you bring into your life, you have to maintain basically for the rest.

你带入生活的一切，你都必须在剩下的时间里基本维护。

Lenny: Yeah, so it's really, I think specifically for work, it's like you start a new project, you're going to have to-

莱尼：是的，所以这真的是，我认为专门针对工作，就像你开始一个新项目，你必须-

Jason Feifer: You're going to have to maintain it.

Jason Feifer：你必须维护它。

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

maintain it, like this podcast, right?

维护它，就像这个播客，对吧？

It's like, do you want to start a podcast and do it forever?

就像，你想开始播客并永远做下去吗？

Lenny: That's a part of it.

莱尼：这是其中的一部分。

Part starting something is you have to maintain it.

开始某件事的一部分是你必须维护它。

Jason Feifer: I know we're in the lightning round and we've defied the logic of lightning rounds, but I'll just add one other thing to that, which is that I interviewed Michelle Pfeiffer for the cover of the magazine, and one of the things that I thought was most fascinating was that she started this fragrance company, and it's called Henry Rose.

杰森·费弗：我知道我们正处在闪电轮中，而且我们已经违背了闪电轮的逻辑，但我只想补充一件事，那就是我采访了米歇尔·菲弗为杂志封面，我认为最令人着迷的事情之一是她创办了这家香水公司，它的名字叫亨利·罗斯。

She said the major difference between making movies and building a company that she found, was that when you make a movie, all the work happens in the beginning.

她说，她发现制作电影和创建公司之间的主要区别在于，当你制作电影时，所有工作都在一开始就发生了。

You make the movie and then the movie is out, and then you are done.

你拍了电影，然后电影上映了，然后你就完成了。

You don't have to work on the movie ever again.

你不必再为这部电影工作了。

She was not really mentally prepared for a company being the exact opposite, that the launch of the company is actually the start of the work and there's an endlessness to it.

她并没有真正做好心理准备，因为公司的成立实际上是工作的开始，而且是永无止境的。

She said that it took her a solid year to adapt to that reality, and then it became fun.

她说她花了整整一年的时间来适应这个现实，然后它就变得有趣了。

I think it's the thing people forget.

我认为这是人们忘记的事情。

Lenny: Mm-hmm, Well, that story, it's cool that you got to interview Michelle Pfeiffer.

莱尼：嗯嗯，嗯，那个故事，你能采访米歇尔·菲佛真是太酷了。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

I was reading your profile line and you said that the only reason you were able to achieve what you've achieved in life and got to where you're today is something that you called the opportunity set B.

我正在阅读您的个人资料，您说您能够实现生活中所取得的成就并达到今天的水平的唯一原因是您所谓的机会集 B。

Lenny: Can you just explain what that is and why that is so important to you?

莱尼：你能解释一下这是什么以及为什么这对你如此重要吗？

Jason Feifer: Oh, yeah, sure.

杰森·费弗：哦，是的，当然。

In front of you right now, you, Lenny, you everyone listening, watching, there are two sets of opportunities.

现在在你们面前，你们，莱尼，你们每个人都在听、在看，有两组机会。

Opportunity set A and opportunity set B, opportunity set A is everything that's asks of you.

机会集A和机会集B，机会集A就是你所要求的一切。

If you have a job, it's what your boss expects of you.

如果你有一份工作，那就是你的老板对你的期望。

If you have your own company, it's what everybody expects of you.

如果你有自己的公司，那就是每个人对你的期望。

Doing good at those things is really important.

做好这些事情非常重要。

That's a measurement of success.

这是成功的衡量标准。

That's opportunity set A, everything that's asked of you.

这就是机会集 A，即对你提出的一切要求。

Then there's opportunity set B and opportunity set B is what's available to you, even though nobody's asking you to do it.

然后是机会集 B，机会集 B 是你可以使用的，即使没有人要求你这样做。

That could be, again, if you have a job, that could be taking on new responsibilities or joining a new team or something.

再说一次，如果你有一份工作，可能会承担新的职责或加入新的团队或其他什么。

Personally, it could be pursuing a hobby.

就个人而言，这可能是追求一种爱好。

It could be starting a podcast because you like listening to podcasts, anything.

它可能是开始播客，因为你喜欢听播客，任何东西。

Jason Feifer: What I have found throughout my own career is that opportunity set B is always more important, infinitely more important.

Jason Feifer：我在自己的职业生涯中发现，机会集 B 总是更重要，更重要。

The thing is that if you only focus on opportunity set A, then you are only qualified to do the things that you're already doing.

问题是，如果你只关注机会集 A，那么你就只有资格做你已经在做的事情。

Opportunity set B is where growth happens and where you push yourself in different directions.

机会集 B 是成长发生的地方，也是你推动自己走向不同方向的地方。

I found a long time ago that it was just really helpful to think about these two things.

很久以前我就发现思考这两件事真的很有帮助。

Oftentimes, maybe we don't do opportunity set B because we don't know how it's going to pay off, or we don't know where we're going to find the time.

很多时候，我们可能不做机会集 B，因为我们不知道它会如何获得回报，或者我们不知道去哪里找到时间。

I have always found, always, that engaging in these things of what is available to me, what's available to me right now around me, and nobody's asking me to do, leads to the next growth either because it turns into an actual opportunity or because it informs some future opportunity.

我总是发现，参与这些我可以做的事情，我现在周围可以做的事情，没有人要求我做的事情，会带来下一次的成长，要么因为它变成了一个实际的机会，要么因为它预示着一些未来的机会。

Jason Feifer: I got to Entrepreneur Magazine, zero, zero people, when I became editor in chief, zero people said, "You should hit the speaking circuit.

贾森·费弗：我到了《企业家杂志》，零，零个人，当我成为主编时，零个人说，“你应该去巡回演讲。

You should get really good at being interviewed on podcasts.

您应该非常擅长接受播客采访。

You should write a book." Nobody said any of that.

你应该写一本书。”没有人说过这些。

My job was to make a good magazine and direct the editorial of the brand, but all those things were available to me, and once I recognized that, I realized that I can pursue them and in doing so, also think differently about who I am.

我的工作是制作一本好的杂志并指导该品牌的编辑，但所有这些东西都是我可以得到的，一旦我认识到这一点，我意识到我可以追求它们，并且在这样做的过程中，我也会以不同的方式思考我是谁。

Am I a magazine editor?

我是杂志编辑吗？

Not really anymore.

真的不再是了。

That's one of the things that I do now.

这是我现在做的事情之一。

I think of myself as an entrepreneur, as a person who is now in the business of helping others.

我认为自己是一名企业家，一个现在致力于帮助他人的人。

I'm an entrepreneur who helps entrepreneurs.

我是一个帮助企业家的企业家。

That's what I think of myself as.

我就是这么认为的。

I only got there because I was thinking, I am here and therefore I can get there.

我到达那里只是因为我在想，我在这里，因此我可以到达那里。

Nobody's ever going to ask me to do it.

没有人会要求我这样做。

I have to do it myself.

我必须自己做。

It's the thing that I always think about, and it's the thing that keeps me up at night.

这是我一直在思考的事情，也是让我彻夜难眠的事情。

What am I doing now that is leading me to something else?

我现在正在做的事情是什么让我去做别的事情？

I'm the only one who can figure it out.

我是唯一一个能弄清楚的人。

Lenny: Beautiful.

莱尼：美丽。

It reminds me of a recent podcast guest's advice, which is the best way to track your progress in your career and in life too is just measuring how many, "Oh shit" moments you have because those are the moments where you're growing, you're doing something.

这让我想起了最近一位播客嘉宾的建议，跟踪你职业生涯和生活进步的最好方法就是衡量你有多少“糟糕”的时刻，因为这些时刻是你成长的时刻，你正在做某事。

I think maybe it's an example of an opportunity set B where it wasn't the default path that's like, "oh, I think I should do this, even though it's really hard."

我想这也许是机会集 B 的一个例子，它不是默认路径，比如“哦，我想我应该这样做，尽管这真的很难。”

Lenny: What a beautiful way to end it.

莱尼：多么美妙的结束方式啊。

Jason, not only do I want to start working on press, it feels like very achievable to get press now.

杰森，我不仅想开始从事媒体工作，而且感觉现在获得媒体报道是非常容易实现的。

That was really energizing, like, "Holy shit, I could do this.

这真的让人充满活力，就像，“天哪，我能做到这一点。

I could just find some people, pitch them.

我可以找到一些人，向他们推销。

Here's how I do it."

我就是这样做的。”

Lenny: Not only that, I'm going to look for some opportunities set B routes for myself too.

Lenny：不仅如此，我也会为自己寻找一些设定B路线的机会。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, maybe pitch you on their story?

如果人们想联系你，或者向你推销他们的故事，他们可以在哪里找到你？

How can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Jason Feifer: Oh, so Lenny, thanks for all the work you do, which I just really love, and for creating the space for me to share all this insight.

贾森·费弗：噢，莱尼，感谢你所做的所有工作，我真的很喜欢这些工作，并为我创造了分享所有这些见解的空间。

How can you find me?

你怎么能找到我？

Well, I'll offer two things.

好吧，我会提供两件事。

An opportunity set B, like a good launching point for both of them, I wrote a book, it's called Build for Tomorrow.

机会集 B，就像他们俩的一个很好的起点，我写了一本书，叫做“为明天而构建”。

It is meant for anybody who's going through any kind of change in their lives or their work.

它适用于生活或工作中正在经历任何变化的任何人。

There's an audiobook version that I read myself, but also hardcover and eBooks, just find it wherever you get books.

有我自己读的有声读物版本，还有精装书和电子书，只要有书就可以找到。

Again, it's Build for Tomorrow.

再说一次，它是为明天而构建。

Opportunity set B, that whole thing, is actually a chapter in the book, so I go into a lot more detail there.

机会集 B，整个事情，实际上是书中的一章，所以我在那里进行了更多详细介绍。

Jason Feifer: Then if you want to get in touch and also get those kinds of things, I have a newsletter, which is called One Thing Better each week.

Jason Feifer：那么，如果您想取得联系并获得此类信息，我有一份时事通讯，名为每周更好的一件事。

One way to improve your work and build a career or company that you love.

改善工作并建立您热爱的职业或公司的一种方法。

Again, the kind of opportunities set B, that's the kind of thing that I put out.

再说一次，B组的机会，就是我推出的那种东西。

It's very much about the personal and emotional side of work.

这很大程度上与工作的个人和情感方面有关。

You can find that by going to the web address onethingbetter, that's one, O-N-E, onethingbetter.email.

您可以通过访问网址 onethingbetter 找到该信息，即 onethingbetter.email。

Just plug that in.

只需将其插入即可。

Onethingbetter.email.

Onethingbetter.电子邮件。

I said that's a good way to reach out to me because if you get the newsletter and you reply to it, it goes to my inbox.

我说这是联系我的好方法，因为如果您收到新闻通讯并回复它，它就会发送到我的收件箱。

I guarantee I will write back to you.

我保证我会写信给你。

Lenny: Inside track.

莱尼：内轨。

Jason, thank you again so much for being here.

杰森，再次非常感谢你来到这里。

Jason Feifer: Oh, thanks Lenny.

杰森·费弗：噢，谢谢莱尼。

This was so fun.

这太有趣了。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。