Making time for what matters | Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky (Authors of Make Time, Character VC)
Jake Knapp: We would have a conversation with founders, you're saying like, "Gosh, I'm almost embarrassed to ask this question, but who exactly is your target customer?" And three co-founders have three different answers.
Jake Knapp：我们会与创始人进行对话，你会说，“天哪，我几乎不好意思问这个问题，但你的目标客户到底是谁？”三位联合创始人给出了三种不同的答案。
John Zeratsky: After these hundreds of teams that we've worked with, we've seen that there's one failure mode, which is they don't know what that set of basics are.
John Zeratsky：在与我们合作的数百个团队之后，我们发现存在一种失败模式，即他们不知道那组基础知识是什么。
Then there's this other failure mode where they never test it.
还有另一种故障模式，他们从未测试过。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about the Foundation Sprint.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们来谈谈基础冲刺。
Walk us through the process.
引导我们完成整个过程。
How does it start?
它是如何开始的？
What are the steps?
步骤是什么？
Jake Knapp: The very beginning of your project, we recommend this kind of crazy idea that you clear your calendar.
Jake Knapp：在你的项目一开始，我们建议你清除日历这种疯狂的想法。
So the core team come together for 10 hours roughly and go through a sequence of activities so that we can make all of the key decisions together.
因此，核心团队大约聚集在一起 10 个小时，完成一系列活动，以便我们能够一起做出所有关键决策。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think a lot of people wonder as they're hearing this is why don't I just build something and launch it and learn?
Lenny Rachitsky：我想很多人在听到这句话时都会想知道为什么我不直接构建一些东西并启动它并学习呢？
John Zeratsky: One phenomenon we've seen when teams are building things really quickly with AI is that the more AI-generated or assisted they are, the more generic they tend to turn out.
John Zeratsky：当团队使用人工智能快速构建事物时，我们看到的一个现象是，人工智能生成或辅助的东西越多，它们就越通用。
Put yourself in a situation where you can slow down and do some hard thinking, some deep thinking about what's actually going to make your product unique.
让自己处于一个可以放慢脚步并认真思考、深入思考到底是什么让你的产品独一无二的境地。
Going fast can actually slow you down in the long run.
从长远来看，快速前进实际上会减慢你的速度。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guests are Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天我的客人是杰克·纳普和约翰·泽拉茨基。
The framework that Jake and John share in this conversation is basically the missing manual for founders and product teams trying to refine and test their startup or product idea.
杰克和约翰在这次对话中分享的框架基本上是创始人和产品团队试图完善和测试他们的初创公司或产品创意时所缺少的手册。
It's called the Foundation Sprint, and it emerged out of the famous Design Sprint, which Jake and JZ co-created, and also from working with over 300 teams, building both new product at startups and also with teams at larger companies like Google, Microsoft, YouTube, Slack, Uber, and many more.
它被称为 Foundation Sprint，它脱胎于 Jake 和 JZ 共同创建的著名设计冲刺 (Design Sprint)，并且与 300 多个团队合作，不仅在初创公司中构建新产品，还与谷歌、微软、YouTube、Slack、Uber 等大公司的团队合作。
Lenny Rachitsky: They published a book with this framework at the beginning of this year called Click, and the excerpt from that book that dives into this framework is one of my most popular posts of all time and is one of the rare non-AI posts amongst the top post rankings.
Lenny Rachitsky：他们在今年年初出版了一本带有这个框架的书，名为《Click》，该书的摘录深入探讨了这个框架，是我有史以来最受欢迎的帖子之一，也是顶级帖子排名中罕见的非人工智能帖子之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: In this conversation, make sure to get your pencils out because we go through exactly how to execute this two-day sprint, where at the end of it you have a very clear hypothesis that your entire team is aligned around that clarifies what you're building, who you're building for, how it differentiates from competitors, and how to quickly test it with real potential customers.
Lenny Rachitsky：在这次对话中，请确保拿出你的铅笔，因为我们会详细介绍如何执行这两天的冲刺，最后你会有一个非常清晰的假设，即你的整个团队都围绕这个假设澄清你正在构建什么，你正在为谁构建，它如何与竞争对手区分开来，以及如何快速与真正的潜在客户进行测试。
The two days that you invest in a sprint might be the highest ROI days in the history of your product, and I highly encourage you to do this if you're in the process of baking an idea.
您投资冲刺的两天可能是您的产品历史上投资回报率最高的日子，如果您正在酝酿一个想法，我强烈鼓励您这样做。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of amazing products including Bolt, Linear, Superhuman, Notion, Perplexity, Granola, and more.
此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的一堆令人惊叹的产品，包括 Bolt、Linear、Super human、Notion、Perplexity、Granola 等。
Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click Bundle.
请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。
With that, I bring you Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky.
接下来，我为您带来杰克·纳普 (Jake Knapp) 和约翰·泽拉茨基 (John Zeratsky)。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Brex, the financial stack used by one in every three US venture-backed startups.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Brex 为您带来，Brex 是美国三分之一的风险投资支持的初创公司使用的金融堆栈。
Brex knows that nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash, so they built a banking experience that focuses on helping founders get more from every dollar.
Brex 知道近 40% 的初创公司因现金耗尽而失败，因此他们建立了专注于帮助创始人从每一美元中获得更多收益的银行业务体验。
It's a stark difference from traditional banking options that leave a startup's cash sitting idle while chipping away at it with fees.
这与传统的银行业务截然不同，传统的银行业务让初创公司的现金闲置，同时通过费用来削减资金。
To help founders protect cash and extend runway, Brex combined the best things about checking, Treasury, and FDIC insurance in one powerhouse account.
为了帮助创始人保护现金并延长跑道，Brex 将支票、国债和 FDIC 保险的最佳功能整合到一个强大的账户中。
You can send and receive money worldwide at lightning speed, you can get 20x the standard FDIC protection through program banks, and you can earn industry-leading yield from your first dollar while still being able to access your funds anytime.
您可以在全球范围内以闪电般的速度发送和接收资金，您可以通过计划银行获得 20 倍于标准 FDIC 的保护，并且您可以从您的第一美元中赚取行业领先的收益，同时仍然能够随时提取您的资金。
To learn more, check out Brex at brex.com/banking-solutions.
要了解更多信息，请访问 brex.com/banking-solutions 查看 Brex。
That's brex.com/banking-solutions.
这是 brex.com/banking-solutions。
Lenny Rachitsky: Many of you're building AI products, which is why I am very excited to chat with Brandon Foo, founder and CEO of Paragon.
Lenny Rachitsky：你们中的许多人都在构建人工智能产品，这就是为什么我非常高兴与 Paragon 创始人兼首席执行官 Brandon Foo 聊天。
Hey, Brandon.
嘿，布兰登。
Brandon Foo: Hey, Lenny.
布兰登·符：嘿，莱尼。
Thanks for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Lenny Rachitsky: So integrations have become a big deal for AI products.
Lenny Rachitsky：因此集成对于人工智能产品来说已经成为一件大事。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
Brandon Foo: Integrations are mission critical for AI for two reasons.
Brandon Foo：集成对于人工智能来说至关重要，原因有两个。
First, AI products need contacts from their customers business data, such as Google Drive files, Slack messages, or CRM records.
首先，人工智能产品需要来自客户业务数据的联系人，例如 Google Drive 文件、Slack 消息或 CRM 记录。
Second, for AI products to automate work on behalf of users, AI agents need to be able to take action across these different third-party tools.
其次，为了使人工智能产品能够代表用户自动化工作，人工智能代理需要能够跨这些不同的第三方工具采取行动。
Lenny Rachitsky: So where does Paragon fit into all of this?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么 Paragon 在这一切中处于什么位置呢？
Brandon Foo: Well, these integrations are a pain to build, and that's why Paragon provides an embedded platform that enables engineers to ship these product integrations in just days instead of months across every use case from RAG data ingestion to agentic actions.
Brandon Foo：嗯，构建这些集成是一件痛苦的事情，这就是为什么 Paragon 提供了一个嵌入式平台，使工程师能够在短短几天而不是几个月的时间内交付这些产品集成，涵盖从 RAG 数据摄取到代理操作的每个用例。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I know from firsthand experience that maintenance is even harder than just building it for the first time.
Lenny Rachitsky：我从第一手经验中知道，维护比第一次建造它还要困难。
Brandon Foo: Exactly.
布兰登·符：没错。
We believe product teams should focus engineering efforts and competitive advantages, not integrations.
我们认为产品团队应该专注于工程工作和竞争优势，而不是集成。
That's why companies like You.com, AI21, and hundreds of others use Paragon to accelerate their integration strategy.
这就是 You.com、AI21 和其他数百家公司使用 Paragon 来加速其集成战略的原因。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you want to avoid wasting months of engineering on integrations that your customers need, check out Paragon at useparagon.com/lenny.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您想避免在客户所需的集成上浪费数月的工程时间，请访问 useparagon.com/lenny 查看 Paragon。
Lenny Rachitsky: Jake and JZ, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：Jake 和 JZ，非常感谢你们来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
John Zeratsky: Hey, Lenny.
约翰·泽拉茨基：嘿，莱尼。
Thanks for having us.
感谢您拥有我们。
Jake Knapp: Yeah, thanks so much for having us on again.
Jake Knapp：是的，非常感谢您再次邀请我们。
This is always a treat.
这总是一种享受。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is going to be a very tactical conversation.
Lenny Rachitsky：这将是一次非常有策略性的对话。
We're going to be going through how to actually execute a Foundation Sprint.
我们将介绍如何实际执行基础冲刺。
And the reason that I'm excited to do this is you guys shared an excerpt from your book where you initially shared this whole concept.
我很高兴这样做的原因是你们分享了你们书中的摘录，你们最初在其中分享了整个概念。
It's called Click.
这就是所谓的“点击”。
You shared this in my newsletter and I was just looking at it, and that excerpt, that post is amongst the top 10 most popular posts of all time in my newsletter, which is especially special because it's not an AI-oriented, it's one of the few non-AI posts that are near the top 10, which just tells me how valuable this is to people.
你在我的时事通讯中分享了这个，我只是看了它，摘录，那个帖子是我的时事通讯中有史以来最受欢迎的 10 篇帖子之一，它特别特别，因为它不是面向人工智能的，它是接近前 10 名的少数非人工智能帖子之一，这只是告诉我这对人们来说有多么有价值。
And consistently it has sat there, it hasn't been usurped, it just continues to climb.
它一直坐在那里，没有被篡夺，只是继续攀升。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I'm really excited to just have a conversation where we share actually how to do this.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我真的很高兴能够进行一次对话，我们实际上分享了如何做到这一点。
Let me just start with the beginning, just a little backstory on how the Foundation Sprint came to be.
让我从头开始，简单介绍一下基金会 Sprint 的诞生过程。
I know it emerged out of the now very famous Design Sprint, which you guys also developed.
我知道它是从现在非常著名的设计冲刺中产生的，也是你们开发的。
So just give us a very brief overview of just how this came to be, this idea of this Foundation Sprint.
因此，请给我们一个非常简短的概述，说明这个基础冲刺的想法是如何产生的。
Jake Knapp: Well, maybe I'll start by talking about the Design Sprint part because it is essential to understanding the Foundation Sprint.
Jake Knapp：嗯，也许我会首先讨论设计冲刺部分，因为它对于理解基础冲刺至关重要。
And the Design Sprint first developed, I had been working at the beginning of my career at Microsoft for a few years.
设计冲刺最初开发时，我在职业生涯初期就在微软工作了几年。
Went to Google, which is like 2007, 2008, 2009, and was working on the Gmail team, was working on some projects that were just executing well, delivering, shipping.
去谷歌，大概是2007年、2008年、2009年，在Gmail团队工作，正在做一些执行得很好的项目，交付，运输。
But I had this other project, a side project that had been going on for three years with a couple of colleagues, was going nowhere, and it looked like their office was going to get shut down after the financial crisis.
但我还有另一个项目，一个与几个同事一起进行了三年的副项目，毫无进展，看起来他们的办公室将在金融危机后被关闭。
They were in Stockholm.
他们在斯德哥尔摩。
Jake Knapp: I went there for a week.
杰克·纳普：我去那里呆了一个星期。
We cleared our calendars for the week, and we created a prototype of this, this thing because we decided, look, we're never going to get anywhere.
我们清理了本周的日历，并创建了这个的原型，这个东西，因为我们决定，看，我们永远不会有任何进展。
We've tried making the perfect pitch.
我们已经尝试做出完美的推介。
We've tried to make the ideal PRD, we've tried to show the ideal design, and we can't.
我们试图制作理想的 PRD，我们试图展示理想的设计，但我们做不到。
Perfection is not working.
完美是行不通的。
We're not able to align people, we're not able to get executive support for this thing.
我们无法协调人员，我们无法为这件事获得高管支持。
We couldn't convince Larry and Sergey and Eric that they should fund this thing.
我们无法说服拉里、谢尔盖和埃里克他们应该资助这件事。
Jake Knapp: In that week in Stockholm, we created a prototype instead.
Jake Knapp：在斯德哥尔摩的那一周，我们创建了一个原型。
We decided you know what?
我们决定你知道吗？
Forget it.
忘了它。
We're just going to build something and put it in people's hands, put it in our fellow Googlers hands.
我们只是要开发一些东西，并将其交到人们的手中，交到我们谷歌同事的手中。
And that prototype was what became Google Meet.
这个原型就是后来的 Google Meet。
It was this video conferencing tool that you could use in the web browser.
这是您可以在网络浏览器中使用的视频会议工具。
Jake Knapp: Yeah, it was really cool.
杰克·纳普：是的，这真的很酷。
I mean, the outcome of that, that's definitely probably the most productive week I've ever had.
我的意思是，结果是，这绝对可能是我度过的最有成效的一周。
But the thing that struck me at the time and in hindsight was, wow, it was so different to clear the calendar for a week and have the entire focal point of every person on the team be how do we create a prototype that's so real, that works so well that people will think it's real, that they'll react like it's real, that they'll want it?
但当时和事后看来，让我印象深刻的是，哇，清理一周的日历，让团队中每个人的整个焦点都集中在我们如何创建一个如此真实、效果如此良好的原型，以至于人们会认为它是真实的，他们会做出像真实的一样的反应，他们会想要它，这是多么不同的事情？
And we were in survival mode.
我们处于生存模式。
We were trying to keep that office from getting shut down.
我们试图阻止该办公室被关闭。
But the notion that maybe you could repeat that and recreate that is what led me to create the Design Sprint.
但也许你可以重复并重新创造这一想法，这就是促使我创建设计冲刺的原因。
Jake Knapp: So for a couple of years at Google, I start running these one-week programs with teams trying to go at the beginning of a project from zero to a prototype at the end that we can sort of evaluate, test.
Jake Knapp：在谷歌工作了几年，我开始与团队一起运行这些为期一周的项目，试图在项目开始时从零到最后的原型，以便我们进行评估和测试。
And then I went to go work at Google Ventures.
然后我去谷歌风险投资公司工作。
So separate, one of the Alphabet companies we're investing in startups.
这是我们正在投资初创公司的 Alphabet 公司之一。
I meet John Zeratsky and we start running these design sprints with, well, it turned out to be over the course of five years, I don't know, couple hundred teams working in the early days with founders, in the early days of their establishing the product for the first time, trying to build it from zero to one or launching a new marketing campaign, a new ad campaign, some big high-risk endeavor.
我遇到了 John Zeratsky，我们开始运行这些设计冲刺，嗯，结果是在五年的时间里，我不知道，数百个团队在早期与创始人合作，在他们第一次建立产品的早期，试图从零到一构建它或启动新的营销活动，新的广告活动，一些大的高风险的努力。
We'd get to work alongside them for a week.
我们会和他们一起工作一周。
Jake Knapp: And we ended up refining this process into a recipe.
Jake Knapp：我们最终将这个过程改进为一个食谱。
So across five days, it's map, sketch, decide, prototype, and test, one big focal point for each day.
因此，在五天的时间里，它是地图、草图、决定、原型和测试，这是每天的一大焦点。
So at the end of the week, you've got a tested prototype and you learn are we on the right track or not?
因此，在本周末，您已经获得了经过测试的原型，并且您知道我们是否走在正确的轨道上？
And that's the Design Sprint.
这就是设计冲刺。
That's kind of the prologue, the backstory to this thing.
这就是序幕，也是这件事的背景故事。
Jake Knapp: And then after a few years at Google Ventures, John and I left and eventually together with our co-founder, Eli Blee-Goldman, we started our own venture firm, Character Capital.
Jake Knapp：在 Google Ventures 工作了几年后，John 和我离开了，最终与我们的联合创始人 Eli Blee-Goldman 一起创办了我们自己的风险投资公司，Character Capital。
And that's kind where the story of the Foundation Sprint comes in.
这就是基金会冲刺故事的由来。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太棒了。
JZ, anything you wanted to add?
JZ，你还有什么要补充的吗？
John Zeratsky: One of our goals, probably our biggest goal for starting our own VC firm was that we wanted to be able to focus on just the kinds of companies and the stage of company-building that was the most fun to us, but also was where we thought we could have the biggest impact.
约翰·泽拉茨基：我们的目标之一，也许是我们创办自己的风险投资公司的最大目标，是我们希望能够专注于对我们来说最有趣、但也是我们认为可以产生最大影响的公司类型和公司建设阶段。
And so for us, with our background as designers, that is the early days, the first couple of months or the first year or two years of building a new business.
因此，对于我们来说，以设计师的背景，这是建立新业务的早期、头几个月或头一年或两年。
And at GV, sometimes we did that, but sometimes we were working with companies that were already well established.
在 GV，有时我们会这样做，但有时我们会与已经很成熟的公司合作。
And when we'd come into those companies, they kind of knew what they were doing.
当我们进入这些公司时，他们知道自己在做什么。
They knew what they stood for.
他们知道自己代表什么。
They knew how they were different in the market and how they were positioned.
他们知道自己在市场上有何不同以及自己的定位如何。
And so we could help them answer these big questions and solve these problems and test their prototypes with customers.
因此我们可以帮助他们回答这些大问题并解决这些问题并与客户一起测试他们的原型。
John Zeratsky: But when we started investing in truly pre-seed, sometimes inception stage, pre-product, pre-revenue, pre-everything companies, there was this piece missing at the beginning of that process.
约翰·泽拉茨基：但是当我们开始投资真正的预种子公司，有时是初创阶段，预产品公司，预收入公司，预一切公司时，在这个过程的开始就缺少了这一部分。
So we'd run design sprints and they would be helpful, but oftentimes it felt like there was a foundational element of that project that we didn't quite have our hands around.
因此，我们会进行设计冲刺，它们会很有帮助，但通常感觉该项目的一个基本要素我们并没有完全掌握。
And it was things like, what is the problem you're solving and who's the ideal customer?
比如，你要解决的问题是什么以及谁是理想的客户？
How are you different than what's in the market today?
您与当今市场上的产品有何不同？
Who are your actual competitors?
谁是你真正的竞争对手？
John Zeratsky: And there were these questions that just kept coming up again and again that led us to say, "Hey, we need to create a new sprint method, something that is really targeted for the very beginning of these big new projects." And so that was what led us to create the Foundation Sprint at Character Capital in 2021, 2022.
John Zeratsky：这些问题不断出现，让我们说：“嘿，我们需要创建一种新的冲刺方法，这种方法确实是针对这些大型新项目的一开始的。”这就是我们在 2021 年、2022 年在 Character Capital 创建基金会冲刺的原因。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Yeah, I was wondering the timeline on this.
是的，我想知道这件事的时间表。
What I love about stuff like this, episodes like this is you guys have done so much work and done this so many times with so many companies, so many founders, and have learned what works and doesn't work.
我喜欢这样的事情，这样的情节是因为你们做了这么多的工作，和这么多的公司、这么多的创始人一起做了这么多次，并且已经了解了什么有效，什么无效。
You said hundreds of founders, hundreds of startups.
你说的是数百位创始人，数百家初创公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: And you've just spent so many hours studying this, refining it, crafting it, and now you're just here to share all the answers, save us so much time.
Lenny Rachitsky：你刚刚花了很多时间研究这个、完善它、精心制作它，现在你只是在这里分享所有的答案，为我们节省了很多时间。
Just the ROI on this is incredible for us.
这方面的投资回报率对我们来说是令人难以置信的。
So I appreciate you guys doing this.
所以我很感谢你们这样做。
Let's get into it.
让我们开始吧。
Let's talk about the Foundation Sprint.
我们来谈谈基础冲刺。
Walk us through the process.
引导我们完成整个过程。
How does it start?
它是如何开始的？
What are the steps?
步骤是什么？
Jake Knapp: So specifically what we talk about with the Foundation Sprint is it's at the very beginning of your project.
Jake Knapp：所以我们具体谈论的基础冲刺是在项目的一开始。
We recommend this kind of crazy idea that you clear your schedule, you clear your calendar.
我们推荐这种疯狂的想法，清理你的日程安排，清理你的日历。
So the core team, this is the co-founders if it's a startup, if it's a product team inside a larger organization, it's whoever's in charge of product, it's whoever's in charge of engineering, it's whoever's in charge of design, it whoever's in charge of marketing, the core leadership team, they're going to come together for, it's going to be 10 hours roughly, give or take.
所以核心团队，如果是一家初创公司，就是联合创始人，如果是一个更大组织内的产品团队，就是负责产品的人，负责工程的人，负责设计的人，负责营销的人，核心领导团队，他们将聚集在一起，大约需要 10 个小时，或多或少。
And during those 10 hours, we're going to go through a sequence of activities, very highly scripted sequence of activities so that we can make all of the key decisions together and identify the basics of the project, what's going to differentiate us in the marketplace, and what's the best approach or implementation path.
在这 10 个小时中，我们将完成一系列活动，非常脚本化的活动序列，以便我们可以一起做出所有关键决策，并确定项目的基础知识、什么将使我们在市场上脱颖而出，以及什么是最佳方法或实施路径。
All of those together form a hypothesis.
所有这些共同构成了一个假设。
Jake Knapp: And then we recommend, so you finish now, that's your Foundation Sprint, you've got your founding hypothesis.
Jake Knapp：然后我们建议你现在完成，这是你的基础冲刺，你已经有了你的基础假设。
Once you've got that founding hypothesis, then you're going to go and do design sprints, and we recommend you clear the calendar for two to three weeks at least, so you have the chance to be wrong about your hypothesis.
一旦你有了这个基础假设，那么你就要去进行设计冲刺，我们建议你至少腾出两到三周的时间，这样你就有可能错误地假设你的假设。
And we're going to run experiments.
我们将进行实验。
And again, the Design Sprint, highly scripted, calendar clear, emails off, Slack is off.
再说一遍，设计冲刺，高度脚本化，日历清晰，电子邮件关闭，Slack 关闭。
We're just focused on running through these sequence of decisions, building prototypes, getting them in front of customers, learning about a scorecard that relates back to the founding hypothesis.
我们只是专注于执行这些决策序列，构建原型，将它们呈现在客户面前，了解与创始假设相关的记分卡。
Jake Knapp: So at the big picture, it's going to be anywhere from 10 hours to three to four weeks.
Jake Knapp：所以从大的角度来看，这将需要 10 小时到三到四个星期。
You're going to run this detailed script of activities with your team with their calendars clear.
您将与您的团队一起运行这个详细的活动脚本，并让他们的日历清晰。
And that's crazy, and most people won't do it.
这太疯狂了，大多数人都不会这么做。
But if you do it, it confers upon you a huge advantage because now you've got information, you know whether or not your product clicks with customers.
但如果你这样做，它会给你带来巨大的优势，因为现在你已经掌握了信息，你知道你的产品是否受到客户的欢迎。
And we've seen that be just such a tremendous signal for is there going to be product market fit?
我们已经看到，这是一个如此巨大的信号，产品是否适合市场？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
That was really helpful.
这真的很有帮助。
The 10 hours is that specifically, that's the Foundation Sprint time box?
具体来说，这 10 小时就是 Foundation Sprint 时间框？
Jake Knapp: That's the Foundation Sprint time box, yeah.
Jake Knapp：是的，这就是基金会 Sprint 时间框。
And it's give or take, right?
这是给予还是索取，对吧？
You might go fast and be done in eight.
你可能走得很快，八分钟内就完成了。
And you might have a lot of conversations and have a slightly larger team and might take you 12.
您可能会有很多对话，并且团队规模稍大一些，可能需要 12 个人。
So we like to spread it out over two days, do two four to six-hour blocks.
因此，我们喜欢将其分散在两天内，进行两次四到六小时的训练。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
And then the three to four week-ish, that's including the Design Sprint?
然后是三到四个星期，其中包括设计冲刺？
Jake Knapp: That's the design sprints, yeah.
Jake Knapp：是的，这就是设计冲刺。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
This is incredible ROI on 10 hours of work.
10 小时工作的投资回报率令人难以置信。
Basically over two days, you get to have a much stronger sense of whether your idea is any good.
基本上在两天的时间里，你会对你的想法是否好有更强烈的感觉。
Yeah.
是的。
Is that a simple way to describe it?
这是一个简单的描述方式吗？
You just supercharge validating an idea?
你只是加速验证一个想法？
Jake Knapp: Exactly.
杰克·纳普：没错。
Yeah, it's a chance to...
是的，这是一个机会...
In the 10 hours, it's a chance to get clarity about the core of your strategy, which is something that teams will often go months without really nailing down.
在这 10 个小时中，这是一个澄清策略核心的机会，而团队通常会花费数月时间才真正确定这一点。
And the three to four weeks, that's a chance to run experiments and get confidence you're actually building the right thing.
在三到四个星期的时间里，这是一个进行实验的机会，并让您确信自己正在构建正确的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, let's talk about these two days.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我们来谈谈这两天的事情。
How do you lay it out?
你如何布置它？
How do you approach it?
你如何处理它？
What should someone do if they want to actually try this at home?
如果有人想在家里实际尝试这个，应该怎么做？
Jake Knapp: So there are three phases to the Foundation Sprint.
Jake Knapp：基础冲刺分为三个阶段。
First phase is the basics, second phase is differentiation, and the third phase is the approach to the project.
第一阶段是基础，第二阶段是差异化，第三阶段是项目方法。
So again, all three of those are going to come together to create the founding hypothesis.
再说一遍，所有这三个因素将共同创造出基础假设。
Jake Knapp: So the first phase, the basics, as I mentioned, that's identifying who's your customer, what problem are you solving for the customer?
Jake Knapp：所以第一阶段，正如我提到的，基础知识是确定谁是你的客户，你要为客户解决什么问题？
What's the competition for solving that problem?
解决这个问题的竞争是什么？
How do they solve it today?
今天他们如何解决这个问题？
And what are the alternatives?
还有哪些替代方案？
How else do people solve this?
人们还能如何解决这个问题？
What are the workarounds?
有哪些解决方法？
Those are really almost embarrassingly simple things to answer.
这些问题的答案实在是简单得令人尴尬。
But when we do this with a team and everybody's answering, proposing their answer to each question, we see everybody's got a different perspective.
但当我们与一个团队一起做这件事并且每个人都回答并提出他们对每个问题的答案时，我们看到每个人都有不同的观点。
And then when we lock in, the decision-maker on the team says, "Okay, it's going to be this one, it's going to be this one, it's going to be this one." Now we have clarity and confidence that that's the right way to go.
然后，当我们锁定目标时，团队的决策者说：“好吧，就这样，就这样，就这样。”现在我们清楚并相信这是正确的道路。
Jake Knapp: So we'll move forward from the basics into differentiation and identify what are the things that can set us apart from those competitors?
Jake Knapp：那么我们将从基础转向差异化，并确定哪些因素可以使我们与这些竞争对手区分开来？
And we're going to use the advantages we have.
我们将利用我们拥有的优势。
We're going to use our insight, we're going to use our motivation, we're going to use our special capabilities.
我们将利用我们的洞察力，我们将利用我们的动力，我们将利用我们的特殊能力。
These are things, again, people are aware of these things, they're in tune to it, but we want to get super, super specific, and we'll go into an example in a second, and I think that'll make it more clear exactly what we mean.
这些都是事情，人们都意识到这些事情，他们也适应它，但我们想要变得非常非常具体，我们将在一秒钟内讨论一个例子，我认为这会让我们更清楚我们的意思。
But going then from differentiation to saying, "What are all of the different implementation paths we could take here?
但是，从差异化转向说：“我们在这里可以采取哪些不同的实施路径？
Let's identify what those are, put a little detail behind them." And then we have a structured path for people to take so they can weigh that decision, but move through really quickly.
让我们来确定它们是什么，并在它们后面添加一些细节。”然后，我们为人们提供了一条结构化的路径，以便他们可以权衡这一决定，但要快速完成。
Commit to one, have a backup plan in case you end up feeling like you need to pivot once you start sprinting on it.
承诺其中一个，制定一个后备计划，以防你在开始冲刺后感觉需要调整。
And all of that together is going to form this kind of Mad Libs sentence.
所有这些加在一起将形成这种疯狂的自由句子。
Jake Knapp: If we solve this problem for this customer with this approach, we think they're going to choose it over the competitors because of differentiator one and differentiator two.
Jake Knapp：如果我们用这种方法为该客户解决这个问题，我们认为他们会因为差异化一和差异化二而选择它而不是竞争对手。
And it's almost silly how simple this thing is, but really powerful for founders to have that clarity about, okay, here it all is in one sentence.
这件事是多么简单，几乎是愚蠢的，但对于创始人来说，清楚地了解，好吧，这一切都在一句话中，这确实很强大。
Now let's go test and make sure this is true.
现在让我们进行测试并确保这是真的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Let's look at an example.
让我们看一个例子。
That's a really good idea.
这真是个好主意。
I know you brought some examples.
我知道你举了一些例子。
You're going to do some screen sharing.
您将进行一些屏幕共享。
You're going to pull it up.
你要把它拉起来。
If you're watching on YouTube, you'll be able to see it.
如果您在 YouTube 上观看，您就能看到它。
Also, if you're watching on Spotify, you can see the video.
此外，如果您在 Spotify 上观看，则可以看到该视频。
If you're on Apple .
如果你用的是苹果电脑。
But do your best to describe what we're going to be looking at.
但请尽力描述我们将要看到的内容。
Jake Knapp: Yeah, so we're going to talk about this company called Latchet first.
Jake Knapp：是的，所以我们首先要谈谈这家名为 Latchet 的公司。
This is the first company we'll talk about.
这是我们要讨论的第一家公司。
And Latchet is a startup who was in our last group of Character Labs, and we can go into Character Labs later on.
Latchet 是一家初创公司，属于我们最后一组角色实验室，我们稍后可以进入角色实验室。
But essentially this is kind of an accelerator-like program that we run at Character Capital where we invest in a group of companies at the same time, and we run them through that process that we were just describing, where we start with a Foundation Sprint, and then it's going to be a sequence of three design sprints after that so that they're testing and refining that hypothesis.
但本质上，这是我们在Character Capital运行的类似加速器的程序，我们同时投资一组公司，并通过我们刚才描述的过程来运行它们，我们从基础冲刺开始，然后将是一系列三个设计冲刺，以便他们测试和完善该假设。
And so it's a great time for them.
所以这对他们来说是一个美好的时光。
These are founders who have just started their companies.
这些是刚刚创办公司的创始人。
They're kind of that pre-seed, very beginning, zero stage.
他们有点像种子前、非常开始、零阶段。
And the progress you can see in those three and a half, four weeks, it's phenomenal.
在这三周半、四个星期内你可以看到进步，这是惊人的。
Jake Knapp: So let's talk about Latchet.
Jake Knapp：那么我们来谈谈 Latchet。
So Latchet, a couple co-founders, Chris and James, who they had left Substack.
Latchet、Chris 和 James 夫妇离开了 Substack。
They were engineers leading up the growth team at Substack.
他们是领导 Substack 增长团队的工程师。
And they wanted to build a product for artisans.
他们想为工匠打造一款产品。
So if you imagine you're a jewelry maker, you're a painter, you're a woodworker, and you want to sell your products outside of your immediate community, the physical place where you are, your physical location, well, you can build a site on Shopify, but you still have to market it.
因此，如果您想象自己是一名珠宝制造商、一名画家、一名木工，并且想要在您的直接社区、您所在的实际位置、您的实际位置之外销售您的产品，那么您可以在 Shopify 上建立一个网站，但您仍然需要营销它。
If you do that, you got to figure out how to reach those folks.
如果你这样做，你必须弄清楚如何接触这些人。
You can put your products on Etsy, but Etsy has become quite commoditized.
你可以把你的产品放到 Etsy 上，但 Etsy 已经变得相当商品化了。
So you're going to be up against everybody everywhere, and it's going to be very hard for you to build an identity there, to build a sense of who I am, what I'm all about.
所以你会在任何地方与每个人对抗，你很难在那里建立自己的身份，建立一种关于我是谁、我是什么的感觉。
And so what Chris and James thought was maybe we could use some of the techniques and methods we used at Substack to help people find other newsletter writers through their community, through recommendations they make and help out artisans in that way.
所以 Chris 和 James 认为也许我们可以利用我们在 Substack 中使用的一些技术和方法来帮助人们通过他们的社区找到其他时事通讯作者，通过他们提出的建议并以这种方式帮助工匠。
Wouldn't that be cool?
那不是很酷吗？
So they were at that stage, they had a few different ideas about what form that might take, what that might look like when they joined Character Labs.
所以他们在那个阶段，当他们加入角色实验室时，他们对可能采取什么形式、看起来是什么样子有一些不同的想法。
And so that's kind of the backdrop to this little quick story I'll tell.
这就是我要讲的这个小故事的背景。
John Zeratsky: And there's one really important thing to emphasize about Chris and James that Jake mentioned briefly, but I think is worth repeating, which is that they're engineers, they are builders.
约翰·泽拉茨基：关于克里斯和詹姆斯，杰克简要提到了一件非常重要的事情，但我认为值得重复一遍，那就是他们是工程师，他们是建设者。
Their instinct is to write code, it's to build software.
他们的本能是编写代码，构建软件。
And they actually told us that they were excited but nervous to come into Character Labs where we would be encouraging them not to write code right away, to take this time to clarify the differentiation, the structure of what they're building, and to validate that with customers before they went all in on building a particular approach.
他们实际上告诉我们，他们对进入角色实验室感到兴奋但又紧张，我们会鼓励他们不要立即编写代码，而是花时间澄清差异化、他们正在构建的结构，并在他们全力以赴构建特定方法之前与客户进行验证。
And I think you'll see in this example how while they were a little hesitant to do that upfront, eventually they saw how much more valuable it was to work in this way versus just diving right into building something.
我想你会在这个例子中看到，虽然他们对提前做这件事有点犹豫，但最终他们发现以这种方式工作比直接投入构建东西更有价值。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's actually really helpful context.
Lenny Rachitsky：这实际上是非常有用的背景。
And speaking of the Substack, Recommendations feature was one of the most game-changing features for me with my newsletter because it basically supercharged my growth.
说到子堆栈，推荐功能对我的时事通讯来说是最具改变游戏规则的功能之一，因为它基本上促进了我的成长。
So I get why they'd be so excited about bringing this learning to other ideas and to their own startups.
所以我明白为什么他们会如此兴奋地将这种学习带到其他想法和他们自己的初创公司中。
So thank you guys for doing that.
所以谢谢你们这样做。
And I'm even more excited to see what they're building.
我更兴奋地看到他们正在建造的东西。
Jake Knapp: Well, let's take a look.
杰克·纳普：好吧，让我们看一下。
So this board here that we're looking at, this is like their Miro board.
所以我们正在看的这块板，就像他们的 Miro 板。
So we've got a big template.
所以我们有一个大模板。
And whether you're watching on YouTube or listening to this episode, we'll talk about at the end how you can get access to this template, which will kind of guide you through the process.
无论您是在 YouTube 上观看还是收听本集，我们都会在最后讨论如何访问此模板，这将指导您完成整个过程。
Jake Knapp: But what happens in this first step in the Foundation Sprint, in the basics, as we said before, is that we're going through a sequence of questions.
Jake Knapp：但是，正如我们之前所说，基础冲刺的第一步中发生的情况是，我们正在解决一系列问题。
Who's the most important customer, for example, is the first question, the very first question that a team needs to answer.
例如，谁是最重要的客户是第一个问题，是团队需要回答的第一个问题。
And as we do that, just as an important side note, we're using this tactic that we call work alone together.
当我们这样做时，正如一个重要的旁注，我们正在使用这种我们称之为单独工作的策略。
And specifically the note and vote is this method where everyone's in silence, in this case both Chris and James, but if you have a team of seven, it's all seven people be working in silence, writing down their own answers to this question, who's the most important customer or who are all the different kind of customers we might consider?
具体来说，注释和投票是这种方法，每个人都保持沉默，在这种情况下是克里斯和詹姆斯，但如果你有一个七人团队，那么所有七个人都在默默工作，写下他们自己对这个问题的答案，谁是最重要的客户，或者谁是我们可能考虑的所有不同类型的客户？
Writing down multiple answers.
写下多个答案。
Jake Knapp: And then once we've got those answers, the team's going to vote on those.
Jake Knapp：一旦我们得到这些答案，团队就会对这些答案进行投票。
And then one person who's designated as the decider, usually it's going to be the CEO of the startup, but it could be in some cases, maybe it's the chief product officer, whatever, however they decide to do it.
然后一个被指定为决策者的人，通常是初创公司的首席执行官，但在某些情况下，可能是首席产品官，无论如何，无论他们决定如何做。
But one person's going to say, "Okay, this is our decision for now, and now we're going to move on." And by doing this and using silence and using structure and then having a designated decision-making process, we can move through a lot of conversations very quickly and save some of that energy that it requires to make the decisions that matter most.
但有人会说：“好吧，这是我们现在的决定，现在我们要继续前进。”通过这样做，使用沉默和结构，然后制定指定的决策过程，我们可以非常快速地进行大量对话，并节省做出最重要决策所需的一些精力。
In this case, what we're really worried about on day one of our Foundation Sprint is differentiation.
在这种情况下，我们在基础冲刺的第一天真正担心的是差异化。
So we don't want to spend too long on the basics.
所以我们不想在基础知识上花太多时间。
Jake Knapp: Anyway, we motor through customer problem, the capability, the insight, the motivation that the team has, those are all advantages, and who are the competition.
Jake Knapp：无论如何，我们通过客户问题、团队的能力、洞察力和动力来推动，这些都是优势，谁是竞争对手。
And we get this sort of one-page sheet, the basics, and it's going to have the answers to all those questions.
我们得到了这种一页纸的基础知识，它将包含所有这些问题的答案。
Who's our customer?
谁是我们的客户？
In this case, artisans who want to sell online, but they sort of find tech and marketing to be hard.
在这种情况下，工匠想要在线销售，但他们发现技术和营销有点困难。
The problem is sales growth.
问题是销售增长。
If we jump down to the competition, their number one competitor is Shopify, but Etsy is another way people approach this, as we mentioned.
如果我们跳入竞争，他们的头号竞争对手是 Shopify，但正如我们提到的，Etsy 是人们实现这一目标的另一种方式。
But there's also in-person sales and art fairs or other ways that people try to get at this problem.
但人们也试图通过面对面的销售和艺术博览会或其他方式来解决这个问题。
And realistically, if you're delivering a solution, you need to stand out from all of those.
实际上，如果您要提供解决方案，您需要从所有这些解决方案中脱颖而出。
Jake Knapp: And then there are advantages.
杰克·纳普：还有一些优点。
We talked about this key one, they built Substack's network growth features, so they know how to do this thing.
我们谈到了这个关键的一个，他们构建了Substack的网络增长功能，所以他们知道如何做这件事。
So now we've established the basics.
现在我们已经奠定了基础。
We're going to move on to differentiation.
我们将继续走向差异化。
Lenny Rachitsky: Before you do that actually, let me ask you a question here.
Lenny Rachitsky：在你真正这样做之前，让我先问你一个问题。
Because I think people seeing this could think, "Oh, this is like...
因为我认为人们看到这个可能会想，“哦，这就像......
I know all this stuff, it's so obvious." It's like, "Okay, I get it.
我知道所有这些事情，这是显而易见的。”就像是，“好吧，我明白了。
I have an idea, I don't need to do this." Where do you find people most are often surprised by something that emerges out of this?
我有一个想法，我不需要这样做。”你发现人们在哪里最常对由此产生的事情感到惊讶？
Is one of these buckets often, wow, this is often not what you expected, or is it generally a lot of surprises?
这些桶中的一个是经常，哇，这通常不是你所期望的，还是通常有很多惊喜？
What do you experience there?
你在那里经历了什么？
Jake Knapp: I think the moment where you immediately start to see value is when everyone on the team is writing down their answers to these questions.
Jake Knapp：我认为当团队中的每个人都写下他们对这些问题的答案时，你就会立即开始看到价值。
And then people put their heads up and look at what everyone else has written and they realize, "Oh, that's not what I said," or "I didn't think of that one." Or, "Gosh."
然后人们抬起头来看看其他人写的东西，他们意识到，“哦，那不是我说的”，或者“我没有想到那个。”或者，“天哪。”
Jake Knapp: The actual concrete reality of going through with the team and being very transparent and clear about how we're making decisions too about each of these things, when that basic sheet comes together and you see the specifics, the specifics are surprising, but it's also familiar.
Jake Knapp：与团队一起讨论的实际具体现实，非常透明和清晰地说明我们如何对这些事情做出决策，当基本表放在一起时，你会看到具体细节，这些细节令人惊讶，但也很熟悉。
We look at it and you say, "Yeah, that all looks right, but I'm surprised by the specifics.
我们看着它，你会说：“是的，一切看起来都不错，但我对细节感到惊讶。
They're not what I would have written if I had written it down.
如果我把它们写下来的话，它们就不会是我会写的东西。
I might've gotten two of those things, two of the six items on there." And I think that's what's most surprising.
我可能已经得到了其中的两件，那里的六件物品中的两件。”我认为这才是最令人惊讶的。
And I think it's also kind of a sense of relief that, okay, well, that's very reassuring that we have clarity about that and we've made it concrete.
我认为这也是一种解脱感，好吧，好吧，这非常让人放心，因为我们对此很清楚，而且我们已经将其具体化。
John Zeratsky: These activities that we do during the basics are impactful for different reasons.
John Zeratsky：我们在基础知识中所做的这些活动由于不同的原因而产生影响。
I think that problem can be really interesting because when teams sit down and think about it, it is often less clear than they thought what the actual problem is.
我认为这个问题可能非常有趣，因为当团队坐下来思考这个问题时，实际问题往往没有他们想象的那么清楚。
Like, "Wait, what problem do our customers really have that we're solving for them?"
比如，“等等，我们正在为客户解决什么问题？”
John Zeratsky: I think competition can be sort of an aha moment when they start to think beyond just what are the other startups in this space?
John Zeratsky：我认为，当他们开始思考这个领域的其他初创公司是什么时，竞争可能是一种顿悟时刻。
If this is an important problem, your customer's probably already solving it somehow.
如果这是一个重要问题，那么您的客户可能已经以某种方式解决了它。
It may be a workaround, it may be an alternative, it may not be a direct competitor, but if it's worth solving, they probably have some way of dealing with it today.
这可能是一种解决方法，可能是一种替代方案，可能不是直接竞争对手，但如果值得解决，他们今天可能有某种方法来处理它。
And what is that?
那是什么？
And when you zoom out and you look at that set of competitors, it can be a little scary, but it is also an important moment for teams.
当你把镜头拉远，看看这组竞争对手时，可能会有点害怕，但这对团队来说也是一个重要时刻。
John Zeratsky: And then I think that advantage isn't necessarily immediately beneficial, but it becomes really valuable when the teams are looking at differentiation, because startups can't compete with big companies on scale or on having built-in distribution advantages or having partnerships in place.
约翰·泽拉茨基：我认为优势不一定会立即带来好处，但当团队考虑差异化时，它就变得非常有价值，因为初创公司无法在规模上、在拥有内置分销优势或建立合作伙伴关系方面与大公司竞争。
So they really have to dig deep and figure out what can we do that nobody else is capable of doing?
所以他们真的必须深入挖掘并找出我们能做哪些其他人无法做的事情？
And...
还有...
John Zeratsky: ...
约翰·泽拉茨基：...
and figure out what can we do that nobody else is capable of doing?
并找出我们能做哪些其他人做不到的事情？
And so by taking time to sit down and do this almost unnatural act of like, wait, why are we special?
因此，花时间坐下来，做这种几乎不自然的行为，比如，等等，为什么我们很特别？
And when we're able to encourage teams to really think about that, it sets them up really nicely for the next step, which is differentiation.
当我们能够鼓励团队真正考虑这一点时，他们就会为下一步（即差异化）做好准备。
Ideally, based on those advantages.
理想情况下，基于这些优势。
Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm hearing is a lot of the value here is also just everyone has the answers in their head in some way, but just seeing what everyone else is thinking and then aligning on one is a lot of this value.
Lenny Rachitsky：我听到的是，这里的很多价值也只是每个人都以某种方式在他们的头脑中拥有答案，但只要看看其他人在想什么，然后调整一个就可以了很多这种价值。
John Zeratsky: Yeah.
约翰·泽拉茨基：是的。
It's like thinking deeply and quietly about it yourself and then seeing what everybody else comes up with when they are able to also think deeply and quietly about it.
这就像你自己深入而安静地思考它，然后看看其他人在也能够深入而安静地思考它时会想到什么。
Then ideally, if they're working with us in character labs, having somebody who's a bit external to push them and say, try harder, dig deeper.
然后理想的情况是，如果他们在角色实验室与我们合作，有一个有点外向的人来推动他们并说，更加努力，深入挖掘。
What really makes you special here?
是什么让你在这里与众不同？
How are you really going to beat OpenAI?
你真的要如何击败 OpenAI？
How are you really going to beat Google at this.
你真的要如何在这方面击败谷歌呢？
Lenny Rachitsky: This whole idea of noting and voting and working in silence.
Lenny Rachitsky：记录、投票和默默工作的整个想法。
Such a recurring theme on this podcast of not doing brainstorms in large groups with a lot of people.
这个播客中反复出现的主题是不要在很多人的大团体中进行头脑风暴。
It feels like that's just dead in every way.
感觉从各方面来说都已经死了。
I just had this naming expert on the podcast who names some of the biggest companies in the world, Pentium, Powerbook, Sonos, Purcell, and that's their approach is they used to do brainstorms.
我刚刚在播客上找到了一位命名专家，他给世界上一些最大的公司命名，Pentium、Powerbook、Sonos、Purcell，这就是他们用来进行头脑风暴的方法。
He's like, that doesn't work.
他说，这行不通。
And now they just have small teams sitting quietly in a room working together on ideas and then thinking on their own.
现在，他们只是让小团队安静地坐在房间里一起讨论想法，然后自己思考。
So that's such an interesting trend and I feel like IDEO just created this whole, we need to brainstorm post-its, and then everyone's like, that's not actually working.
所以这是一个非常有趣的趋势，我觉得 IDEO 刚刚创造了这个整体，我们需要集思广益，然后每个人都会说，这实际上不起作用。
Let's stop doing that.
让我们停止这样做吧。
Lenny Rachitsky: The other thing that I feel as you're talking through this, what I'm feeling this is for founders, there's not a manual for starting a company.
Lenny Rachitsky：当你谈论这个问题时，我感受到的另一件事是，对于创始人来说，没有一本关于创办公司的手册。
It feels like this dark art of like, I guess I got to find product market fit.
感觉就像是一种黑暗艺术，我想我必须找到适合市场的产品。
And this idea, it feels like this is almost a manual of everything you need to do to just get the basics of is this even worth doing?
这个想法，感觉这几乎是一本手册，包含了你需要做的一切，只是为了了解这是否值得做？
John Zeratsky: Yeah.
约翰·泽拉茨基：是的。
And that's why we created it because we still are investing in founders who are...
这就是我们创建它的原因，因为我们仍在投资于......
They're incredibly talented and they're smart and they have a background that is going to give them an advantage in building some particular product.
他们非常有才华，他们很聪明，他们的背景将使他们在构建某些特定产品方面具有优势。
But you're right, there's no manual and we were just kind of solving our own problem and we believe in this so much and we see the ROI as being so great that this is the first thing we do when we make an investment.
但你是对的，没有手册，我们只是在解决我们自己的问题，我们非常相信这一点，我们认为投资回报率非常高，所以这是我们进行投资时要做的第一件事。
John Zeratsky: We invest in a company and then we run a foundation sprint with them right away.
John Zeratsky：我们投资一家公司，然后立即与他们一起进行基础冲刺。
We run more foundation sprints with startups than we do design sprints at this point.
目前，我们与初创公司进行的基础冲刺比设计冲刺还要多。
And I don't think we can ever encapsulate every single thing that you need to know or that you need to do to start a company, but this is our best take at what you should do in the early days to set yourself up for success and maximize the chances that you're going to reach product market fit.
我认为我们无法概括您创办公司时需要了解或需要做的每一件事，但这是我们对您在早期应该做的事情的最佳看法，以便为您的成功做好准备，并最大限度地提高您达到产品市场契合度的机会。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay, let's keep it going.
好吧，让我们继续吧。
So we've done the basics.
这样我们就完成了基础工作。
What comes next?
接下来会发生什么？
Jake Knapp: Yeah, so we've done the basics and another important thing that we've accomplished while going through the sequence of activities and the basics is to boot up the right context into everyone's head so that we're ready for the main event of this first day, which is differentiation.
杰克·纳普：是的，我们已经完成了基础知识，在完成一系列活动和基础知识时，我们完成了另一件重要的事情，即在每个人的头脑中启动正确的背景，以便我们为第一天的主要活动做好准备，这就是差异化。
And I still have very firmly in my mind, I grew up with a Mac plus computer and you'd put in the disk and the drive and you'd have to boot up the app that you wanted to run.
我仍然非常坚定地认为，我是在 Mac 电脑的陪伴下长大的，你需要放入磁盘和驱动器，然后你必须启动你想要运行的应用程序。
That's kind of the way our brains work.
这就是我们大脑的工作方式。
We have limited working memory and we've got to have the right stuff in there when we're going to make a big decision, when we're going to think hard about a certain problem or question, it's important to have the right context fresh at hand.
我们的工作记忆是有限的，当我们要做出重大决定时，当我们要认真思考某个问题或疑问时，我们必须拥有正确的东西，手头有正确的背景非常重要。
So the basics is really the context for thinking about differentiation.
因此，基础知识实际上是思考差异化的背景。
Jake Knapp: And differentiation is the heart of what we're doing in the foundation sprint because it goes without saying perhaps, but we like to say it.
Jake Knapp：差异化是我们在基础冲刺中所做工作的核心，因为这也许是不言而喻的，但我们喜欢这么说。
When you are making a new product, people want to ignore it.
当你生产新产品时，人们想忽略它。
People want to not pay attention to it, and if they do have to pay attention to it, if it gets in their face, they want to not try it because we just are all bombarded by so many things and that's never been more true than it is now.
人们不想关注它，如果他们确实必须关注它，如果它出现在他们面前，他们不想尝试它，因为我们都被这么多事情轰炸，而这从来没有像现在这样真实过。
Jake Knapp: And so we have defenses up to save calories in our brain.
杰克·纳普：所以我们有防御措施来节省大脑中的卡路里。
We don't want to engage.
我们不想参与。
It's crucial then that a product has a clear promise that it makes, and that promise is radically differentiated from the alternatives and that that promise is strong enough that you'll try it and then that the product delivers on that promise.
那么至关重要的是，产品必须有明确的承诺，并且该承诺与替代品有根本区别，而且该承诺足够强大，您会尝试它，然后该产品兑现该承诺。
And so when we talk about differentiation, we're saying, look, we want you to be really clear on your promise, not the promise you're making to investors about this technology and what's special about the technology or what's special about the market opportunity, but what the customer at the center.
因此，当我们谈论差异化时，我们会说，看，我们希望您真正明确自己的承诺，不是您向投资者做出的关于这项技术的承诺，以及该技术的特别之处或市场机会的特别之处，而是以客户为中心的承诺。
We've started the basics by talking about the customer and the problem they have and the way they see the world.
我们从谈论客户、他们遇到的问题以及他们看待世界的方式开始。
Jake Knapp: And we want to talk about what you're going to offer to the customer and how it's going to separate from the alternatives.
Jake Knapp：我们想谈谈您将向客户提供什么以及它将如何与其他选择区分开来。
And so in the end of this next phase of the foundation sprint, we're going to have a two-by-two diagram that's going to look like a business school one-on-one diagram.
因此，在基础冲刺的下一阶段结束时，我们将得到一个二乘二的图表，它看起来像商学院一对一的图表。
And in fact, we often refer back to this Steve Jobs iPhone introduction slide where he talks about the iPhone and he makes a joke about it.
事实上，我们经常回顾史蒂夫·乔布斯 (Steve Jobs) 的 iPhone 介绍幻灯片，他在其中谈到了 iPhone，并开了一个玩笑。
This is a business school one-on-one diagram, but it's really helpful to start developing your product with this clarity about this is the promise we'll make to customers at the end, and we're going to deliver on that promise because we can test and prove that in design sprints.
这是商学院一对一的图表，但在开始开发产品时明确说明这是我们最终向客户做出的承诺，并且我们将兑现该承诺，因为我们可以在设计冲刺中测试和证明这一点，这确实很有帮助。
So anyway, we start off, we talk about differentiators and we talk about classic differentiators, fast to slow, smart to not so smart to borrow from the iPhone slide, easy to use to hard to use, and so on.
所以无论如何，我们首先讨论差异化因素，我们讨论经典的差异化因素，从快到慢，从智能到不智能（借用 iPhone 幻灯片），从易于使用到难以使用，等等。
Jake Knapp: And we just start off and have the team, okay, let's just score those up against the competition.
Jake Knapp：我们刚刚开始并拥有团队，好吧，让我们在竞争中得分。
Put a sticky note on those continuums showing where you think the product could be.
在这些连续体上贴一张便签，显示您认为产品可能处于的位置。
And usually you'll do this and maybe you'll start to see there are a couple places where we can stand out on these classics.
通常你会这样做，也许你会开始发现我们可以在这些经典作品中脱颖而出的几个地方。
That's great.
那太棒了。
These classics are easily understandable by any customer.
这些经典对于任何客户来说都很容易理解。
We're all sort of familiar with these kinds of things.
我们对这些事情都很熟悉。
So okay, that's great.
好吧，那太好了。
Then we get into writing custom differentiators.
然后我们开始编写自定义差异化因素。
So we're going to write a bunch of good things on one end, crummy opposite on the other end, and then we're going to score those.
所以我们要在一端写一堆好的东西，在另一端写一堆糟糕的东西，然后我们会给它们评分。
And so for the Latchet story, we'll pick up with Chris and James here.
对于 Latchet 的故事，我们将在这里与 Chris 和 James 一起讨论。
They've written, well, we could really differentiate on networked versus siloed.
他们写道，我们确实可以区分网络化和孤立化。
Our approach is networked.
我们的方法是网络化的。
If you're using Shopify, you're siloed, or maybe we can differentiate on painless business growth versus labor-intensive business growth.
如果您使用 Shopify，那么您就处于孤立状态，或者我们可以区分无痛业务增长和劳动密集型业务增长。
Jake Knapp: So that might be the specific way we describe the promise of our product.
Jake Knapp：这可能是我们描述我们产品承诺的具体方式。
So after evaluating a bunch of these, writing a bunch of these, voting on them quietly, and then the decider's going to say, all right, I don't want to choose a couple of these and we're going to try them out.
因此，在评估了一堆这些、写了一堆这些、悄悄地对它们进行投票之后，决策者会说，好吧，我不想选择其中的几个，我们将尝试它们。
The teams are going to...
各队将...
If you're running a foundation sprint, you're going to try out a few differentiators.
如果您正在进行基础冲刺，您将尝试一些差异化因素。
You're going to score against your competitors.
你将战胜你的竞争对手。
You're going to create a scale and you're going to say, okay, let's be honest.
你要创建一个量表，然后你会说，好吧，说实话。
Let's be tough.
我们要坚强一点。
Where do we really think we could stack up against the competitors on this differentiator we've chosen in great detail plotting each company or product one at a time.
我们真的认为我们可以在这个差异化因素上与竞争对手抗衡，我们选择了一次详细地绘制每家公司或产品的差异化因素。
Okay, so you do that for one differentiator, you do it for another, you do it until you feel like we've got two that are really strong, and then you make that business school one-on-one diagram.
好的，所以你对一个差异化因素这样做，对另一个差异化因素也这样做，直到你觉得我们有两个非常强大的差异化因素，然后你制作商学院的一对一图表。
And so here's this one for says Lyric, they changed their name to Lachit, so I'm going to edit that real time.
这是 Lyric 说的，他们把名字改成了 Lachit，所以我要实时编辑。
Jake Knapp: Yeah.
杰克·纳普：是的。
So Lachit's up here in the top-right corner and we say, okay, look, this is a good differentiation chart because you've got this quadrant here, this quadrant here, this quadrant here, right?
所以 Lachit 在右上角，我们说，好吧，看，这是一个很好的差异化图表，因为这里有这个象限，这里有这个象限，这里有这个象限，对吧？
You've got the...
你已经拥有了...
So you're in the top-right and you've-
所以你在右上角并且你-
Lenny Rachitsky: You've got to be in the top-right, you got to be in the top-right.
Lenny Rachitsky：你必须在右上角，你必须在右上角。
Jake Knapp: You always have to be in the top-right.
Jake Knapp：你必须始终位于右上角。
And if you see those other three quadrants, the top-left, bottom-left, bottom-right, those form an L shape and we call that Loserville.
如果你看到其他三个象限，左上、左下、右下，它们形成一个 L 形，我们称之为洛瑟维尔。
So we want to have a way of looking at the world that puts all of the competitors into Loserville.
因此，我们希望有一种看待世界的方式，将所有竞争对手都放在洛瑟维尔。
And then we want to say, okay, if you can deliver on that and if that promise is compelling to customers.
然后我们想说，好吧，如果你能兑现这一承诺，并且这个承诺对客户来说是否有吸引力。
So both those things have to be true.
所以这两件事都必须是真的。
Can you deliver on it and do customers care and believe that that matters to them?
您能否实现这一目标，并且客户是否关心并相信这对他们很重要？
If both of those things are true, you have a really compelling promise.
如果这两件事都是真的，那么你就有了一个非常令人信服的承诺。
You have the possibility of a very successful product.
您有可能获得非常成功的产品。
So now we've identified that and that becomes a core of our hypothesis.
现在我们已经确定了这一点，这成为我们假设的核心。
Is that differentiation true?
这种差异化是真的吗？
So that's the differentiation step.
这就是差异化步骤。
Lenny Rachitsky: Before you move on to the next step, is that where you were going next?
Lenny Rachitsky：在您继续下一步之前，这就是您下一步要去的地方吗？
Just so I could take a-
只是为了让我可以采取-
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Follow a couple of threads.
遵循几个线程。
This is so awesome.
这太棒了。
There's just so much value here.
这里有很多价值。
Also, just this slide at the end here, folks are watching YouTube.
另外，就在最后的这张幻灯片中，人们正在观看 YouTube。
This is your deck slide where you show your competitors and how you're better than them all.
这是您的幻灯片，您可以在其中向竞争对手展示您如何比他们更好。
Jake Knapp: And actually I want to jump on that for a second because we've all seen two by two.
杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：实际上我想先谈谈这个，因为我们都已经看到了两个两个。
Hey Graham, right?
嘿格雷厄姆，对吧？
There's a ton of these.
有很多这样的。
They're all over the place.
他们到处都是。
And if you're anything like me, I just ignored these.
如果你和我一样，我就会忽略这些。
I just thought these were pretty much BS up until, well, whenever we started putting these foundations friends three or four years ago.
我只是认为这些几乎都是废话，直到三四年前我们开始把这些基础朋友放在一起为止。
And I think the reason why usually these two by two diagrams feel like this is just consultant baloney.
我认为为什么通常这些两两图给人的感觉只是顾问的胡言乱语。
This is just like who...
这就像谁...
It's because maybe one person makes this chart and they do it quickly because they needed to slide for the slide deck and the audience they're considering, maybe it's investors.
这是因为也许一个人制作了这张图表，并且他们做得很快，因为他们需要为幻灯片和他们正在考虑的受众（也许是投资者）滑动。
And so often these describe technology or they describe the market opportunity, they don't talk about the customer's perspective.
这些通常描述技术或描述市场机会，而不谈论客户的观点。
And the other thing is that they're not proven.
另一件事是它们还没有被证明。
There's no evidence behind the fact that these are true.
没有证据证明这些是真实的。
Jake Knapp: So if they did happen to be about customer perspective, it's unlikely that the whole team would've weighed in on what those differentiators are, and it's very unlikely that we would've tested and proven that matters and that we can deliver on it.
Jake Knapp：因此，如果它们确实是关于客户视角的，那么整个团队不太可能会权衡这些差异化因素是什么，而且我们也不太可能测试并证明这些差异化因素很重要并且我们可以实现它。
And so if you do all of those things and you do it at the beginning of the project, we think this has the potential, when we've seen it becomes this, well, this guiding light, here's the North Star.
因此，如果你做了所有这些事情，并且在项目开始时就做了，我们认为这有潜力，当我们看到它变成这个，嗯，这个指路明灯，这就是北极星。
We need to deliver on this.
我们需要兑现这一承诺。
This is what we have to create.
这就是我们必须创造的。
And that helps you make decisions all the way through your product development cycle.
这可以帮助您在整个产品开发周期中做出决策。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just to point people to justification for why differentiation is so important, there's a couple of episodes that I did that I'll point to in the show notes that just give you more context of why you need to differentiate.
Lenny Rachitsky：只是为了向人们指出差异化为何如此重要的理由，我会在节目说明中指出我制作的几集，这些片段只是为您提供了更多关于为什么需要差异化的背景信息。
So I spoke of David Plastic who is this naming expert that we just had on the podcast.
所以我谈到了大卫·塑料（David Plastic），他是我们刚刚在播客上看到的命名专家。
His whole thing is when he's coming up with a name for Sonos or Purcell or Windsor, it has to differentiate.
他的整个想法是，当他为 Sonos、Purcell 或 Windsor 起一个名字时，它必须与众不同。
And he talks about this in depth.
他深入谈论了这一点。
So we'll point to that episode and this is just like if you're not convinced, why are we spending so much time in differentiation?
所以我们会指出那一集，这就像如果你不相信，为什么我们要花这么多时间进行差异化？
Also, April Dunford who's like, I don't know, the god of positioning.
另外，阿普里尔·邓福德（April Dunford），我不知道，他就像是定位之神。
She has differentiation is such a core part of her approach to positioning.
她的差异化是她定位方法的核心部分。
And so there's just so much evidence to tell you that differentiation is a really important step and element of successful companies.
因此，有这么多证据告诉您，差异化是成功公司的一个非常重要的步骤和要素。
Jake Knapp: One of the things that I've noticed about these topics that the basics we talked about already, differentiation, this notion of you need a foundation for your project.
Jake Knapp：我注意到关于这些主题的一件事是我们已经讨论过的基础知识，差异化，这个概念需要为您的项目奠定基础。
It's a bit more under the radar for people.
对于人们来说，这有点不为人所知。
I think it's a bit harder for people to immediately see like, oh, we need this.
我认为人们很难立即看到，哦，我们需要这个。
We see the people who react the strongest to this and have the strongest immediate affinity to this idea actually being start-up founders, people who are really sophisticated in this challenge.
我们看到对此反应最强烈并且对这个想法有最强烈直接亲和力的人实际上是初创公司的创始人，是在这一挑战中真正老练的人。
Product managers who are at...
产品经理们在...
We were invited in to speak at open AI and anthropic about this, and we see the product people, they're being like, oh my god, this is really powerful.
我们受邀在开放人工智能和人类学大会上就此发表演讲，我们看到产品人员，他们说，天哪，这真的很强大。
This is the kind of stuff we need.
这就是我们需要的东西。
Jake Knapp: I think for a lot of folks though, it can sound like this is just elementary, differentiation.
Jake Knapp：我认为对于很多人来说，这听起来只是基本的差异化。
Of course we need to differentiate.
当然我们需要区分。
The problem is that all of this stuff gets backgrounded.
问题是所有这些东西都是有背景的。
It's something we've thought about a bit.
这是我们考虑过的事情。
We assume we're on the same page, we assume we're going to deliver something, but then business as usual happens, we build a product, we get kind of more interested in the technology and delivering that, and we end up trying to sell it to customers at the end.
我们假设我们在同一页面上，我们假设我们要交付一些东西，但随后一切照常发生，我们构建了一个产品，我们对技术和交付更感兴趣，最后我们最终试图将其出售给客户。
We end up putting a coat of paint on it with a marketing page or sales deck.
我们最终会在上面涂上一层油漆，并加上营销页面或销售平台。
We haven't actually built from the beginning the thing that we know is going to matter to people.
我们实际上并没有从一开始就构建出我们知道对人们来说很重要的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: One of the most useful steps here that I haven't seen before is just a starting place for how to even start thinking about differentiation.
Lenny Rachitsky：我以前从未见过的最有用的步骤之一只是如何开始思考差异化的起点。
Everyone's always probably thinking price and speed maybe.
每个人可能总是想到价格和速度。
You guys have a really cool just starting list that you showed here.
你们在这里展示了一个非常酷的入门列表。
Anything more you can add here for helping people start to think about ways to differentiate beyond the obvious price and speed.
您可以在此处添加更多内容，以帮助人们开始思考如何在明显的价格和速度之外实现差异化。
And I don't know, a couple more.
我不知道，还有几个。
Jake Knapp: So I'm just going to jump into another startup here just so we can see what this sheet looks like with scores on it.
Jake Knapp：所以我要跳到另一家初创公司这里，这样我们就可以看到这张带有分数的表格是什么样子的。
So this is a startup called Mellow.
这是一家名为 Mellow 的初创公司。
Anyway, the standard classic differentiators where we start, they are fast to slow, smart to not so smart, easy to use to hard to use, free to expensive, focused to one size fits all, simple to complicated and integrated to siloed.
无论如何，我们从标准经典的差异化因素开始，它们是快到慢、聪明到不那么聪明、容易使用到难以使用、免费到昂贵、专注于一种尺寸适合所有人、简单到复杂、集成到孤立。
And so you could probably argue there's these others that should be included or some of those should be taken off.
因此，您可能会认为应该包括其他一些内容，或者应该删除其中一些内容。
But what we like about this is that it's a small set.
但我们喜欢这个的原因是它是一个小集合。
They're easy to understand.
它们很容易理解。
Jake Knapp: We know customers can understand these and they create a great starting place for your team to think about differentiation because you can quickly look at this list and start scoring where you think your product could be on these scales and you know that if you can use one of these, people will understand it.
Jake Knapp：我们知道客户可以理解这些，他们为您的团队思考差异化创造了一个很好的起点，因为您可以快速查看此列表并开始在您认为您的产品可能达到这些规模的地方进行评分，并且您知道如果您可以使用其中之一，人们就会理解它。
But it also starts to make the team comfortable with this notion of differentiation.
但这也开始让团队对这种差异化概念感到满意。
And again, we want to make differentiation something that all of the co-founders or core team can participate in.
再说一次，我们希望让所有联合创始人或核心团队都可以参与差异化。
It's not just the job of the person writing the pitch deck.
这不仅仅是撰写融资方案的人的工作。
It's not just the job of the marketer or the salesperson, but we're getting everybody's perspective in on it and this is a great warm up activity before we start to write our own custom differentiators.
这不仅仅是营销人员或销售人员的工作，而且我们正在了解每个人的观点，这是我们开始编写自己的定制差异化因素之前的一个很好的热身活动。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And then again, this is just inspiration for coming up with more ways to differentiate.
话又说回来，这只是想出更多差异化方法的灵感。
Something that is a common question I think for founders is price as a differentiator.
我认为对于创始人来说，一个常见的问题是价格作为差异化因素。
Is there any insight you guys have there?
你们有什么见解吗？
How often do you land on price being a good differentiator with the startups you work with?
您是否经常认为价格是与您合作的初创公司的一个很好的差异化因素？
John Zeratsky: I think price is rarely the most important differentiator.
John Zeratsky：我认为价格很少是最重要的差异化因素。
Part of what's interesting about going through these classic differentiators, these standard ones first and then jumping into the custom ones is that the classic ones are sort of universal, but it is going to be hard beat the competition on very many of these.
首先了解这些经典的差异化因素（首先是标准的差异化因素，然后再跳入定制的差异化因素）的部分有趣之处在于，经典的差异化因素是通用的，但在很多方面都很难击败竞争对手。
It's going to be hard to build a product that's faster than what Google can build or what OpenAI can build.
很难构建出比 Google 或 OpenAI 更快的产品。
It's going to be harder to be cheaper than those competitors because they just have so many more resources.
比那些竞争对手更便宜将变得更加困难，因为他们拥有更多的资源。
They can have lost leader products that are underpriced.
他们可能会失去定价过低的领先产品。
Where I think pricing has become a really clear advantage for some companies is those that are leveraging AI to solve problems that were previously unsolvable with software.
我认为定价对于一些公司来说已经成为一个真正明显的优势，那就是那些利用人工智能来解决以前用软件无法解决的问题的公司。
So we have a company that we invested in called BindWell and they use AI to design precision pesticides.
所以我们投资了一家叫做BindWell的公司，他们使用人工智能来设计精准农药。
John Zeratsky: And we ran a foundation sprint with them right after investing and five years ago you couldn't design pesticides with AI.
John Zeratsky：我们在投资后立即与他们一起进行了基础冲刺，五年前你还无法用人工智能设计农药。
It wasn't possible.
这是不可能的。
Even if you had that idea, you wouldn't have been able to build it and now you can.
即使您有这个想法，您也无法实现它，但现在您可以了。
And so for them, one of the big advantages is yeah, these pesticides, they can be a lot cheaper because it doesn't require this massive team of R&D chemists to tinker and experiment with things in the lab to try to create new pesticides.
因此，对他们来说，最大的优势之一是，这些农药可以便宜得多，因为不需要庞大的研发化学家团队在实验室中进行修补和实验来尝试创造新的农药。
We can design them with AI.
我们可以用人工智能来设计它们。
So it is more often true in AI companies like that, but it's very difficult to compete on price in general.
所以在像这样的人工智能公司中更常见的是，但一般来说很难在价格上竞争。
And we think we find that it is not as durable of an advantage as some of these other things.
我们认为我们发现它的优势并不像其他一些东西那样持久。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is such a good point because historically price has been don't compete on price for exactly what you said.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的观点，因为从历史上看，价格一直不会像你所说的那样进行价格竞争。
It's hard to do long term.
长期做起来很难。
It's kind right to the bottom, especially if there's incumbents, they can price a lot lower.
这对底层来说是件好事，特别是如果有现任者的话，他们的价格可以低很多。
But with AI, that is a really often and strong differentiator.
但对于人工智能来说，这是一个非常常见且强大的差异化因素。
Now do this thing like cursor basically is competing on.
现在做这件事就像光标基本上正在竞争一样。
You're saving engineering time and it's worth so much money to you.
您节省了工程时间，而且对您来说物有所值。
John Zeratsky: At the same time, the output of the AI is probably not going to be quite as good as a human process.
约翰·泽拉茨基：与此同时，人工智能的输出可能不会像人类过程那么好。
So it can be a little bit cheaper for now, but it has to be a lot cheaper.
所以现在可以便宜一点，但一定要便宜很多。
It has to be...
它必须是...
I've heard people offer 10X cheaper than the legacy sort of manual approach to solving that problem as the rule of thumb.
据我所知，根据经验，人们提供的解决该问题的方法比传统手动方法便宜 10 倍。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
I'll just quickly reference, there's an episode that will come out before this with Modobon about pricing strategy and there's a lot of discussion actually on this.
我只是快速参考一下，在此之前，Modobon 将推出一个关于定价策略的剧集，实际上对此有很多讨论。
Lenny Rachitsky: Especially with how to design your price with customers as you're starting your company.
Lenny Rachitsky：尤其是在你创办公司时如何与客户一起设计价格。
Also, the episode with the founder of Superhuman Rahul, he actually spent, there's a lot of cool context on how he differentiated Superhuman and it was actually very much on speed.
此外，他实际上在与超人拉胡尔的创始人拉胡尔的那一集里，有很多关于他如何区分超人的很酷的背景，而且实际上非常注重速度。
His speed actually.
他的速度其实。
Yeah, speed was where he landed.
是的，速度就是他落地的地方。
And to your point, it was both...
就你而言，这两者都是......
It was the Venn diagram of what you said, can we do this and do people value it?
这是你所说的维恩图，我们可以这样做吗？人们重视它吗？
And that's where his research pointed to is people really value this and they were able to achieve it.
这就是他的研究指出的地方，人们真正重视这一点，并且他们能够实现这一目标。
John Zeratsky: One of the things that's really interesting about this example here that we're looking at Mellow is that you can see that they were not the best on all these scales.
John Zeratsky：我们正在研究 Mellow 的这个例子真正有趣的事情之一是，你可以看到它们在所有这些尺度上都不是最好的。
If teams are through and they're being really realistic about how they stack up against the competition, it's normal and natural to find that you're not going to be the best on all these differentiators.
如果团队通过了比赛并且他们对于如何在竞争中脱颖而出非常现实，那么很自然地会发现你不会在所有这些差异化方面成为最好的。
And that is really helpful for creating clarity in your positioning and in your marketing because you're not going to show a feature checklist chart that says you're better at everything than every competitor.
这对于明确您的定位和营销非常有帮助，因为您不会显示一个功能清单图表来表明您在所有方面都比每个竞争对手都更好。
But if you can drive home one or two things that your customers really care about and that you can be radically better at, it's going to improve your chances of winning and finding product market fit.
但是，如果您能够深入了解客户真正关心的一两件事，并且您可以从根本上做得更好，那么这将提高您获胜并找到适合市场的产品的机会。
John Zeratsky: And we find that going through this process where you're not just thinking about one differentiator at a time or you're not trying to win on all of them, but you're looking across this scale of options and you're being just really honest about where you stack up can both point you in the right direction in terms of what you will win on, but also can give you the comfort to say, hey, it's okay if we're not better than every single company on every single one of these things.
约翰·泽拉茨基：我们发现，在经历这个过程时，你不仅仅是一次考虑一个差异化因素，也不是试图在所有差异化因素上取胜，而是审视这一规模的选择，并且诚实地了解你的优势，既可以为你指明你将在哪些方面获胜的正确方向，也可以让你安慰地说，嘿，如果我们在每一项事情上不比每家公司都好，那也没关系。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's great context.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是很好的背景。
That's going to make people feel a lot better I think.
我认为这会让人们感觉好很多。
Today's episode is brought to you by Coda.
今天的节目是由 Coda 为您带来的。
I personally use Coda every single day to manage my podcast and also to manage my community.
我个人每天都使用 Coda 来管理我的播客和社区。
It's where I put the questions that I plan to ask every guest that's coming on the podcast.
我在这里提出了我计划向播客中的每位嘉宾提出的问题。
It's where I put my community resources.
这是我放置社区资源的地方。
It's how I manage my workflows.
这就是我管理工作流程的方式。
Here's how Coda can help you.
以下是 Coda 如何帮助您。
Imagine starting a project at work and your vision is clear exactly who's doing what and where to find the data that you need to do your part.
想象一下，在工作中启动一个项目，您的愿景很清楚谁在做什么以及在哪里可以找到您完成自己的工作所需的数据。
In fact, you don't have to waste time searching for anything because everything your team needs from project trackers and OKRs to documents and spreadsheets lives in one tab all in Coda.
事实上，您不必浪费时间搜索任何内容，因为您的团队所需的一切（从项目跟踪器和 OKR 到文档和电子表格）都位于 Coda 的一个选项卡中。
With Coda's collaborative all in one workspace, you get the flexibility of docs, the structure of spreadsheets, the power of applications, and the intelligence of AI all in one easy to organize tab.
借助 Coda 的协作式全合一工作区，您可以在一个易于组织的选项卡中获得文档的灵活性、电子表格的结构、应用程序的强大功能以及 AI 的智能。
Lenny Rachitsky: Like I mentioned earlier, I use Coda every single day.
Lenny Rachitsky：就像我之前提到的，我每天都使用 Coda。
And more than 50,000 teams trust Coda to keep them more aligned and focused.
超过 50,000 个团队相信 Coda 可以让他们更加协调和专注。
If you're a startup team looking to increase alignment and agility, Coda can help you move from planning to execution in record time.
如果您是一个希望提高一致性和敏捷性的初创团队，Coda 可以帮助您在创纪录的时间内从计划转向执行。
To try it for yourself, go to Coda.io/Lenny today and get six months free of the team plan for startups.
要亲自尝试，请立即访问 Coda.io/Lenny，并获得六个月免费的初创公司团队计划。
That's Coda.io/Lenny to get started for free and get six months of the team plan, Coda.io/Lenny.
Coda.io/Lenny 可以免费开始使用，并获得六个月的团队计划，Coda.io/Lenny。
Anything else on differentiation before we move on to the third step of designing your approach?
在我们继续设计方法的第三步之前，还有什么关于差异化的事情吗？
Jake Knapp: I think it's worth taking a look at what it looks like when you have a bunch of these custom crafted differentiators, what that might look like.
Jake Knapp：我认为值得一看的是，当你拥有一堆这些定制的差异化因素时，它会是什么样子，它会是什么样子。
Because in the case of Mellow, we've got, I don't know, there must be 25 here.
因为就 Mellow 而言，我们有，我不知道，这里一定有 25 个。
And so they've written purposeful, magical, clear, personal, provides direction, flexible, human creative, beautiful, and on and on.
因此，他们写的文章有目的、神奇、清晰、个性化、提供方向、灵活、富有人类创造力、美丽等等。
What they're trying to get at and what we want every team to think about here is what is a new version of reality, a new lens that you can offer to your customers on the world.
他们想要了解的以及我们希望每个团队在这里思考的是什么是现实的新版本，是您可以为世界各地的客户提供的新镜头。
Because a lot of times you're building a new product, you actually have to change the way people think about what's possible and what matters to them.
因为很多时候你在开发新产品时，实际上必须改变人们思考什么是可能的以及什么对他们来说是重要的。
Those classics are often already well-trodden ground where other people have differentiated, they've already thought about it, but these new particular things that are possible with your technology that you know is possible with the customer problem, the things that you believe might matter.
这些经典通常已经是人们所熟悉的领域，其他人已经与众不同，他们已经考虑过它，但是这些新的特定事物可以通过您的技术实现，您知道可以解决客户问题，您认为可能重要的事情。
Jake Knapp: It's really interesting to try some very fine-tuned list of sometimes just a slight variation.
Jake Knapp：尝试一些经过微调的列表（有时只是细微的变化）真的很有趣。
We slightly change this wording or the way we describe what's great about what we do.
我们稍微改变了这个措辞或我们描述我们所做的事情的伟大之处的方式。
And that is the thing we think is really going to stand out.
这就是我们认为真正脱颖而出的事情。
And again, you can see even on this list that they've custom written, when we see where they score it, they're not all the way to the good end of the scale on all of them.
再说一次，你甚至可以在这个列表上看到他们定制的内容，当我们看到他们的得分时，他们并没有在所有方面都达到最好的水平。
When they get honest and look through, they're like, well actually, maybe we can't deliver on this, but this one we really can.
当他们诚实地看清真相时，他们会说，实际上，也许我们无法实现这一目标，但我们确实可以。
And this one we also suspect will matter to customers.
我们也怀疑这一点对客户来说很重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: Where did Mellow land on the differentiators they picked and where did Latchit Land?
Lenny Rachitsky：Mellow 在他们选择的差异化因素上落在哪里，Latchit 落在哪里？
Jake Knapp: Yeah, let's take a look.
杰克·纳普：是的，让我们看一下。
For Mellow, they trade out a bunch before they decided here.
对于梅尔洛来说，他们在做出决定之前就交易了很多。
So they actually scored with the competitors on these scales.
所以他们实际上在这些尺度上与竞争对手得分相同。
John Zeratsky: And just for context, Mellow is a tool that allows you to run very simple, very targeted, very useful AI agents for common everyday tasks like summarizing your email or cleaning up your calendar or drafting responses to messages.
John Zeratsky：就上下文而言，Mellow 是一个工具，可让您运行非常简单、非常有针对性、非常有用的人工智能代理，以执行常见的日常任务，例如总结电子邮件或清理日历或起草消息回复。
And one of their insights was that there's been so many AI products that have over-promised about being able to replace all humans and do anything and 10X year productivity, but so few of them have actually delivered on those promises.
他们的见解之一是，有太多人工智能产品过度承诺能够取代所有人类并做任何事情以及 10 倍年的生产力，但实际上很少有产品兑现这些承诺。
And so they have this insight that if they can be really focused and really human and really high quality and they can deliver on that promise of making your life better by offloading tedious tasks that that's going to really click with customers.
因此，他们有这样的洞察力：如果他们能够真正专注、真正人性化、真正高品质，他们就能兑现承诺，通过卸载繁琐的任务来让你的生活变得更美好，这将真正赢得客户的青睐。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's a great context.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的背景。
Thank you for adding that.
感谢您添加这一点。
Jake Knapp: So Mellow lands on mobile first and works out of the box if there are two differentiators and they're trying to differentiate from Gumloop and OpenAI is sort of a generalized tool and Latchit they're going to differentiate on...
Jake Knapp：因此，Mellow 首先登陆移动设备，如果有两个差异化因素，他们会尝试与 Gumloop 区分开来，并且 OpenAI 是一种通用工具，而 Latchit 则将在...上进行差异化。
Lenny Rachitsky: We're pulling it up.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们正在努力解决这个问题。
If folks aren't watching, he's pulling up the mirror board to show us where they landed.
如果人们没有看，他就会拉起镜板向我们展示他们降落的地方。
Jake Knapp: Latchit, they're going to differentiate on helps you grow and cooperative.
Jake Knapp：Latchit，他们将在帮助你成长和合作方面脱颖而出。
So when they compare against Etsy, when they compare against Shopify or setting up your table at an art fair, they're going to differentiate on helps you grow and cooperative.
因此，当他们与 Etsy 进行比较时，当他们与 Shopify 进行比较时，或者在艺术博览会上为您摆设餐桌时，他们会在帮助您成长和合作方面做出差异化。
And they think none of the competitors does both of those things well.
他们认为没有一个竞争对手能在这两方面都做得很好。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：那很酷。
Thank you for sharing that.
感谢您分享这一点。
And to your point, this is where they think it will work.
就你的观点而言，这就是他们认为可行的地方。
And then the next step is actually test this in the market, which is where we go from here.
然后下一步是在市场上进行实际测试，这就是我们的下一步方向。
So let's move on to the next step in which is the final step of the foundation sprint.
因此，让我们继续下一步，这是基础冲刺的最后一步。
Jake Knapp: So closing off differentiation is a short step that is just to create some project principles that'll help you make decisions in line with that differentiation.
Jake Knapp：因此，消除差异化只是一小步，只需创建一些项目原则即可帮助您根据差异化做出决策。
And you were just talking about superhuman and differentiating on speed.
你刚才谈论的是超人和速度上的差异化。
And when John and I worked at Google back in the 2000s, there was this list called 10 Things We've Found To Be True.
2000 年代约翰和我在 Google 工作时，有一份名为“我们发现的 10 件真实的事情”的清单。
And one of the things on that list was fast is better than slow.
清单上的一件事是快比慢好。
And what was interesting is this is a mantra that you would actually hear people using in meetings to help dictate decisions.
有趣的是，这是一个口头禅，你实际上会听到人们在会议中使用它来帮助制定决策。
Well, we're considering this approach to this view or this approach, this approach renders 12 milliseconds faster.
好吧，我们正在考虑这种视图的方法或这种方法，这种方法的渲染速度快了 12 毫秒。
That's probably going to be the one we're going to take.
这可能就是我们要采取的。
It's going to be a really compelling reason for us to not go with just the one that renders faster or the one that gets the user to their benefit with one less click.
对于我们来说，这将是一个非常令人信服的理由，我们不能只选择渲染速度更快的产品，或者只需点击一下就能让用户受益的产品。
Jake Knapp: And this notion that you can have a decision-making guide, we think we've seen it be so useful for us in those contexts.
Jake Knapp：您可以拥有决策指南这一概念，我们认为我们已经看到它在这些情况下对我们非常有用。
We think, hey, this is an easy moment.
我们想，嘿，这是一个轻松的时刻。
You've got your differentiators kind of loaded up in your mind.
你已经把自己的差异化因素牢记在心了。
Let's take a second here and just think, what's a principle?
让我们想一想，什么是原则？
How can we turn that into a principle?
我们怎样才能把它变成一个原则呢？
So if we take a look at Latchit, they've got help sellers help each other.
因此，如果我们看看 Lachit，就会发现他们帮助卖家互相帮助。
So if they're trying to make a decision between two approaches, well, which one of these helps sellers help each other or do the thing that makes sellers more money?
因此，如果他们试图在两种方法之间做出决定，那么，哪一种可以帮助卖家互相帮助，或者做让卖家赚更多钱的事情？
If we're choosing between two things, let's do the one that helps make them more money.
如果我们要在两件事之间做出选择，那就选择能让他们赚更多钱的那件事。
And so then we've kind of moved on.
然后我们就继续前进了。
We've got a mini manifesto we call it, which is that differentiation chart and these principles.
我们有一个迷你宣言，我们称之为差异化图表和这些原则。
And the notion is this page, the basics page was just kind of the core simple stuff you need to know about this project.
这个概念就是这个页面，基础知识页面只是你需要了解这个项目的核心简单内容。
The mini manifesto in one page is your decision-making guide.
一页的迷你宣言是您的决策指南。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is so cool and this looks like it would take a lot of work, but again, this is just a day or two of sitting around working through this framework.
Lenny Rachitsky：这太酷了，看起来需要做很多工作，但同样，这只是花一两天的时间来完成这个框架。
Jake Knapp: Yeah, you'll get to this in four-ish hours.
Jake Knapp：是的，你会在四个小时内完成这个任务。
Lenny Rachitsky: By the end of the first day, you'll have a mini manifesto that describes how you win essentially as a company and a startup.
Lenny Rachitsky：在第一天结束时，你将会有一份迷你宣言，描述你作为一家公司和一家初创公司如何取得本质上的胜利。
Jake Knapp: Or how you believe it's going to work.
Jake Knapp：或者你认为它会如何发挥作用。
And of course, we're going to test it.
当然，我们将对其进行测试。
Now, the next phase of the foundation is-
现在，基金会的下一阶段是——
Jake Knapp: Believe it's going to work, and of course we're going to test it.
Jake Knapp：相信它会起作用，当然我们会对其进行测试。
Now the next phase of the foundation Sprint is locking in on the approach we're going to start with.
现在，基础冲刺的下一阶段正在锁定我们将要开始的方法。
So we'll continue the story of Latch It here, it's easier to use an example than to describe this in the abstract.
因此，我们将在这里继续 Latch It 的故事，使用示例比抽象地描述它更容易。
Jake Knapp: So coming into Character Labs, Latch It had sort of four approaches in mind, but they weren't sure which one to take.
Jake Knapp：进入角色实验室时，Latch It 考虑了四种方法，但他们不确定该采用哪一种。
So they might build an app, that's one approach they could take.
所以他们可能会构建一个应用程序，这是他们可以采取的一种方法。
They might build a sort of newsletter platform.
他们可能会建立一种时事通讯平台。
That's something obviously they knew how to do.
显然他们知道该怎么做。
They might build a Shopify plugin, that's a simple way to kind of piggyback on something people are already doing.
他们可能会构建一个 Shopify 插件，这是一种利用人们已经在做的事情的简单方法。
Their number one competitor is Shopify.
他们的第一大竞争对手是 Shopify。
Or they might have to build the full stack.
或者他们可能必须构建完整的堆栈。
And I think a big question for them was, which of these and how much do we have to build before there's enough value for customers that they're actually going to adopt it and we're actually going to get some traction and get this thing going?
我认为对他们来说一个大问题是，我们必须构建其中哪一个以及多少，才能为客户提供足够的价值，让他们真正采用它，并且我们实际上会获得一些牵引力并让这件事继续下去？
John Zeratsky: And it's important to call out here that all four of these approaches solve the same problem for the same customer.
John Zeratsky：重要的是要指出，所有这四种方法都为同一客户解决了同一问题。
And they're all likely to differentiate from the competition in the same ways based on the unique advantages that the founders Chris and James bring to this company.
基于创始人克里斯和詹姆斯给这家公司带来的独特优势，他们都可能以同样的方式在竞争中脱颖而出。
So these are not wildly different product ideas or company ideas.
因此，这些并不是截然不同的产品理念或公司理念。
These are just different approaches.
这些只是不同的方法。
You have the same destination in mind, but you say, "Hey, which path could we take?" It's like pulling up directions on Google Maps.
你们心里有同样的目的地，但你说：“嘿，我们该走哪条路呢？”这就像在谷歌地图上找到方向一样。
This one's a little faster, this one uses less fuel, this one avoids tolls.
这个速度快一点，油耗更少，还可以避免过路费。
What's the right approach for us to take?
我们应该采取什么正确的方法？
Lenny Rachitsky: And I love the work you did on that first day eliminates a lot of ideas you probably had that you would've probably spent time building and then realizing, "Okay, this doesn't make any sense.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你第一天所做的工作，它消除了你可能有的很多想法，你可能会花时间构建这些想法，然后意识到，“好吧，这没有任何意义。
It's just like what everyone else has."
这就像其他人所拥有的一样。”
Jake Knapp: Totally, totally, yeah.
杰克·纳普：完全，完全，是的。
And we usually see teams starting projects in one of two states.
我们通常会看到团队在两个州之一开始项目。
And one state is the state that Latch It finds themselves in where, gosh, there's a few different ways we could do this.
其中一种状态是 Latch It 发现自己所处的状态，天哪，我们可以通过几种不同的方式来做到这一点。
How do we decide?
我们如何决定？
We can discuss and discuss and discuss, but that could go on forever.
我们可以讨论、讨论、讨论，但这可能会永远持续下去。
So that's state one.
这就是状态一。
We know there are some options.
我们知道有一些选择。
And state two is we're pretty locked in on one approach already.
第二个状态是我们已经非常锁定一种方法。
We think we've got this figured out.
我们认为我们已经解决了这个问题。
Jake Knapp: In either of those cases, we think it's worth taking, again, about four hours-ish to be really careful to lay out the options.
杰克·纳普：无论哪种情况，我们都认为值得再次花大约四个小时左右的时间来非常小心地列出选项。
If you think there's only one option to sort of force yourself to think, well, what if this doesn't work?
如果你认为只有一种选择可以强迫自己思考，那么，如果这不起作用怎么办？
What's another alternative?
还有什么选择？
Or is there another alternative that we have previously considered and dismissed that we should maybe reconsider just to make sure?
或者是否还有我们之前考虑过并驳回的另一种选择，我们也许应该重新考虑以确保确定？
And end with a situation where you've made a decision clearly about, okay, we've considered alternatives.
最后，你已经明确地做出了决定，好吧，我们已经考虑了替代方案。
This is our first choice.
这是我们的第一选择。
And you've also identified this is our backup plan.
您也已经确定这是我们的后备计划。
So that failure doesn't seem quite so scary when we start to run experiments.
因此，当我们开始进行实验时，失败似乎并不那么可怕。
And we're really able to pivot fast should that happen.
如果发生这种情况，我们确实能够快速转变。
Jake Knapp: So what we're going to do on the second day of the foundation sprint through this sort of third phase, which is the approach.
Jake Knapp：那么我们将在基础冲刺的第二天通过第三阶段做些什么，这就是方法。
Is to identify those different paths, so for Latch It here, they've got a B, C and D options.
是为了识别那些不同的路径，所以对于这里的 Latch It，他们有 B、C 和 D 选项。
We're going to color code those and then we're going to plot them on these charts.
我们将对它们进行颜色编码，然后将它们绘制在这些图表上。
So we've got these different lenses.
所以我们有这些不同的镜头。
We call this activity magic lenses.
我们称这种活动为“魔镜”。
And the notion is, if we had a discussion about it, and we could ...
这个想法是，如果我们对此进行讨论，我们可以......
as investors, if we could imagine like waving a magic wand and putting the perfect team of advisors in place to counsel the founders on this decision, we would love for them to have a customer expert, somebody who's just brilliant vision for the product and the customer experience.
作为投资者，如果我们能想象挥舞魔杖并组建完美的顾问团队来为创始人提供有关此决定的建议，我们希望他们拥有一位客户专家，一个对产品和客户体验有着出色愿景的人。
And they're hammering their fist on the table saying, "The customer, the customer, the customer, make the decision that's best for the customer."
他们用拳头敲击桌子说：“客户、客户、客户，做出对客户最有利的决定。”
Jake Knapp: And so we'll plot those options on these axes of easy to use versus hard to use and perfect solution to the customer problem versus this is just an okay solution to the customer problem.
Jake Knapp：因此，我们将在易于使用与难以使用以及对客户问题的完美解决方案与这只是对客户问题的良好解决方案这几个轴上绘制这些选项。
And then similarly, we want an advisor who's going to pound their fist on the table for building something cheap and fast, getting it out into the market, being pragmatic, get it out there as fast as possible.
同样，我们需要一位顾问，他会用拳头敲击桌子，以打造便宜而快速的产品，将其推向市场，务实，尽快将其推向市场。
That's the pragmatic lens.
这就是务实的镜头。
We want somebody who's going to advocate for growth.
我们需要一个能够倡导增长的人。
What's the way to reach the most customers?
怎样才能接触到最多的客户？
Get it in people's hands as fast as possible, easy to adopt.
尽快到达人们手中，易于采用。
We want somebody who's going to advocate for money, for the financial health of a business.
我们需要有人为金钱、为企业的财务健康发声。
So what's going to create long-term value for the customers?
那么什么才能为客户创造长期价值呢？
Where's the biggest audience of these folks?
这些人的最大受众在哪里？
We want to look at differentiation.
我们想看看差异化。
Which we spent the first half of the Foundation Sprint establishing.
我们花了基础冲刺的前半段时间来建立它。
Well, we want consider these approaches through that lens, as well.
好吧，我们也想从这个角度考虑这些方法。
Jake Knapp: And so what the teams will do is to plot these options on these lenses.
Jake Knapp：所以团队要做的就是在这些镜头上绘制这些选项。
They'll almost always create some lenses of their own, some custom lenses that matter to them.
他们几乎总是会自己制作一些镜头，一些对他们来说很重要的定制镜头。
They might have one about their conviction.
他们可能对自己的信念有一个了解。
I think there's sort of a humorous one for Mellow where it's like, which founder is like, "F yeah, that's exactly what I want to build." And on the other end of the spectrum it's like, nah, just kind of the sort of heat of excitement that you feel.
我认为 Mellow 有一种幽默感，创始人会说，“是的，这正是我想要建立的。”另一方面，这就像，不，只是你感受到的那种兴奋的感觉。
That might be a really important decision point.
这可能是一个非常重要的决策点。
Lenny Rachitsky: That feels really important.
Lenny Rachitsky：这感觉非常重要。
That feels like that should be one of your ...
感觉那应该是你的之一......
you call these the magic lenses?
你称这些为魔法镜片？
Jake Knapp: Yeah, yeah.
杰克·纳普：是的，是的。
It probably should be.
也许应该是这样。
It probably should be -
大概应该是——
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I feel like ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，我觉得……
just like how excited are you to build this?
就像你对建造这个有多兴奋？
It feels like a really important piece.
感觉这是一个非常重要的作品。
Jake Knapp: Yeah, we saw that one in ...
杰克·纳普：是的，我们在……中看到了那个。
this is our cohort of labs that's going on right now, and I'll bring that one up for context.
这是我们目前正在进行的一组实验室，我将介绍一下该实验室的背景情况。
John Zeratsky: If we add it, we can call it the Lenny lens.
John Zeratsky：如果我们加上它，我们可以称之为莱尼镜头。
Jake Knapp: The Lenny lens.
杰克·纳普：莱尼镜头。
Yeah.
是的。
Oh, that's a good idea.
哦，这是个好主意。
Jake Knapp: Yeah, so here it is.
杰克·纳普：是的，就是这样。
And you can see that Marie is more likely to swear than Ben apparently.
您可以看到玛丽显然比本更有可能说脏话。
But it's crucial, right?
但这很关键，对吧？
And many founders, they'll have different ...
许多创始人，他们会有不同的......
one of the challenges is that for each founder, I think, each set of founders, there's maybe a different way that they phrase what that means.
我认为，挑战之一是，对于每一位创始人、每一组创始人来说，他们可能会用不同的方式来表达这意味着什么。
What conviction means to them.
信念对他们意味着什么。
And maybe it's as simple as this, I just feel it, I just know.
也许就这么简单，我只是感觉到，我只是知道。
And sometimes it's a little bit more like, well, it's conviction, but it's also, what's the data that we have behind it?
有时它更像是，嗯，这是信念，但它也是，我们背后的数据是什么？
And that's what forms my intuition about it.
这就是我对此的直觉。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I love that lens.
我喜欢那个镜头。
I love that you asterisk out so it's not a little bit .
我喜欢你用星号标出，所以它不是一点点。
Jake Knapp: A little bit.
杰克·纳普：有一点。
A little ...
有点...
just slightly concealed.
只是稍微隐藏了一下。
Yeah, if you zoom in, it's actually not censored.: So the cool thing about this lens's thing is at the end, you've done all that, you've plotted it all out.
是的，如果你放大，它实际上没有被审查。：所以这个镜头的最酷的事情是在最后，你已经完成了所有这些，你已经把它全部绘制出来了。
And if you're having a conversation like that, you just have to sort of maintain in memory, what did that person say?
如果你正在进行这样的谈话，你只需要记住那个人说了什么？
What did that other person say?
那个人说了什么？
What's that conversation I had a week ago?
我一周前的谈话内容是什么？
Whatever.
任何。
Here it's all laid out and sometimes you zoom out and it's honestly as simple as like, "Oh, hey, look, the blue one is in the top right quadrant of almost every single lens.
这里一切都布置好了，有时你缩小，老实说就像这样简单，“哦，嘿，看，蓝色的那个位于几乎每个镜头的右上象限。
What is that one?
那是什么？
What's going on?
发生什么事了？
That might just be an easy decision."
这可能只是一个简单的决定。”
Yeah, if you zoom in, it's actually not censored.: Sometimes you zoom out and you say, "Oh, clearly like nothing wins in every lens." And that's actually really reassuring because then you know there is no perfect decision.
是的，如果你放大，它实际上没有被审查。：有时你缩小并说，“哦，显然每个镜头都没有获胜。”这实际上非常令人放心，因为这样你就知道没有完美的决定。
There's nothing that checks all of the boxes.
没有什么可以检查所有的方框。
And that's going to help us decide.
这将帮助我们做出决定。
Because now we decide which is the most important lens, which is the most important viewpoint to take.
因为现在我们决定哪个是最重要的镜头，哪个是最重要的视角。
And you can actually move forward in either way, either situation you get in where there's sort of consistency across all the lenses or there's not.
实际上，你可以以任何一种方式前进，无论你遇到的情况是所有镜头之间存在某种一致性，也可能不存在。
You either pick a lens or you just pick the consensus winner.
您要么选择一个镜头，要么只选择共识获胜者。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that this step answers a question that's been the back of my mind that I think a lot of people wonder is they're hearing this is just, why don't I just build something and launch it and learn?
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这一步回答了我脑海中的一个问题，我想很多人都想知道他们听到的只是，为什么我不直接构建一些东西并启动它并学习呢？
And why am I spending all this time sitting in a room?
为什么我要花这么多时间坐在房间里？
And this to me is a big part of the answer is just spending an hour or two thinking through, here's the ideas we have.
对我来说，答案的一个重要部分就是花一两个小时思考一下，这就是我们的想法。
How do they compare on ...
他们如何比较...
how do they look on these magical lenses?
他们在这些神奇的镜片上看起来怎么样？
Which makes so much sense.
这很有意义。
How do they just filter on what customers will love most, will help us grow the fastest, we'll drive the most money?
他们如何筛选出客户最喜欢的、将帮助我们增长最快、我们将带来最多收入的产品？
Things like that.
诸如此类的事情。
It's such a simple, quick exercise that will save you so much time building and launching and having to spend time learning.
这是一个如此简单、快速的练习，将为您节省大量构建和启动时间以及不必花时间学习的时间。
That is weeks, days, months of work versus a couple hours.
这是几周、几天、几个月的工作，而不是几个小时。
It could save you so much over that time.
在那段时间里它可以为你节省很多。
Jake Knapp: And it's also the case that you start building something.
Jake Knapp：这也是你开始构建一些东西的情况。
It's exciting, you can move fast.
这很令人兴奋，你可以快速行动。
It's easier and easier to see progress now with AI tools.
现在使用人工智能工具可以越来越容易地看到进展。
And that act of building and starting to create something has a momentum of its own that can be hard to stop.
这种构建和开始创造某种东西的行为有其自身的动力，很难停止。
And if you're headed in the wrong direction, you can spend a lot of time building and making progress.
如果您的方向错误，您可能会花费大量时间来构建和取得进展。
But it's just, if it's not progress in the right direction, it's actually hurting you.
但这只是，如果没有朝着正确的方向取得进展，它实际上会伤害你。
Jake Knapp: And that's why we want people to pause and take this.
杰克·纳普：这就是为什么我们希望人们停下来接受这个。
It's really, as you said earlier, the ROI is high.
正如您之前所说，投资回报率确实很高。
But it feels very unnatural to pause when you're so excited at the beginning and ready to go.
但当你一开始就如此兴奋并准备出发时，暂停感觉很不自然。
To pause and say, "Okay, let's make sure we're taking the right path." But just imagine you're Gandalf, you're Frodo, you're starting off, you're trying to get to Mordor, it's a long trip.
停下来说：“好吧，让我们确保我们走的是正确的道路。”但想象一下，你是甘道夫，你是佛罗多，你正在出发，你正试图前往魔多，这是一段漫长的旅程。
You don't want to take the wrong path.
你不想走错路。
You want to take the ...
你想采取...
think before you start marching through the swamps or whatever.
在你开始穿过沼泽或其他地方之前要三思。
John Zeratsky: One phenomenon we've seen when teams are building things really quickly with AI is that the more AI-generated or assisted they are, the more generic they tend to turn out.
John Zeratsky：当团队使用人工智能快速构建事物时，我们看到的一个现象是，人工智能生成或辅助的东西越多，它们就越通用。
Which makes sense if you think about how LLMs were developed, they're all basically pre-trained on the same data.
如果您考虑一下法学硕士是如何开发的，这是有道理的，它们基本上都是基于相同的数据进行预训练的。
And so in this excitement, in this rush to say, "Wow, look at how fast we can build it." You actually end up with something that is less differentiated than what already exists in the world.
因此，在这种兴奋中，在急于说“哇，看看我们能多快建造它”。实际上，你最终得到的东西与世界上已经存在的东西相比，差异较小。
And then let's say you launch it, and that takes longer than building sort of a clickable prototype.
然后假设您启动它，这比构建可点击原型需要更长的时间。
But you launch it because you're moving so fast.
但你启动它是因为你进展得太快了。
John Zeratsky: And then you get data from the people who managed to find that thing about what they did with it.
约翰·泽拉茨基：然后你可以从那些设法找到那个东西的人那里获得关于他们用它做了什么的数据。
But you don't get any data about what they didn't do with it.
但你得不到任何关于他们没有用它做什么的数据。
And you certainly don't get any data about the people who never found it, who never tried it.
而且你当然不会获得任何关于那些从未发现过它、从未尝试过它的人的数据。
Maybe they landed on your website and they're like, blah, another generic AI-generated thing, that's not worth my time.
也许他们登陆了你的网站，然后他们就像，废话，另一个通用的人工智能生成的东西，那不值得我花时间。
And so we think it's really helpful to basically put yourself in a situation where you can slow down a little bit and do some hard thinking, some deep thinking about what's actually going to make your product unique.
因此，我们认为，基本上让自己处于一种可以放慢速度并进行一些认真思考、深入思考真正使您的产品变得独特的情况是非常有帮助的。
And then you can switch into this mode of like, okay, great.
然后你就可以切换到这种模式，好吧，太棒了。
Now let's go as fast as possible and get that out into customer's hands.
现在让我们尽快将其交付到客户手中。
But if you don't take this step first, it's actually kind of counterintuitive that going fast can actually slow you down in the long run.
但如果你不先迈出这一步，从长远来看，快速前进实际上会减慢你的速度，这实际上有点违反直觉。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, to build on that, I had this guest recently, Bob Baxley.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，在此基础上，我最近邀请了一位客人，Bob Baxley。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So he has this really interesting insight.
所以他有这个非常有趣的见解。
He calls it ...
他称之为...
I think he calls it the Primal Mark.
我认为他称之为原始印记。
Essentially his feedback is, wait as long as possible to start any sort of sketch or prototype, because as soon as you start drawing what you're building, now everything you do will be a response to that.
本质上，他的反馈是，尽可能长时间地等待开始任何类型的草图或原型，因为一旦你开始绘制你正在构建的东西，现在你所做的一切都将是对此的回应。
And so the more time you can spend before starting to concept out the solution, the more likely you are to land on something that works.
因此，在开始构思解决方案之前，您花的时间越多，您就越有可能找到可行的方案。
John Zeratsky: That is super interesting and it is-
约翰·泽拉茨基：这非常有趣，而且是-
John Zeratsky: And I find myself challenged to think about it in the context of the sprints that we run with founders.
John Zeratsky：我发现自己面临着在与创始人一起进行冲刺的背景下思考这个问题的挑战。
But I think one way to interpret that in the work that we do is that we used to just run design sprints with every team, that was our hammer and everything looked like a nail.
但我认为在我们所做的工作中解释这一点的一种方法是，我们过去只与每个团队一起进行设计冲刺，那是我们的锤子，所有东西看起来都像钉子。
And part of what we found so valuable about doing the Foundation Sprint is that it keeps you away from ideation for just a little bit longer.
我们发现进行基础冲刺如此有价值的部分原因在于，它可以让你远离构思的时间更长一些。
And it forces you to think about why you're unique and the market that you're going into before you get to that moment of creating something that looks realistic and then maybe being a little bit locked into that approach.
它迫使你思考为什么你是独一无二的，以及你要进入的市场，然后你才能创造出看起来现实的东西，然后可能有点被这种方法所束缚。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：那真是……
like I love that this emerged out of that.
就像我喜欢由此产生的那样。
Like you guys were so design sprint oriented, and it's just like, cool, let's just make prototypes, let's design, let's make it real, let's show people.
就像你们如此以设计冲刺为导向，就像，酷，让我们制作原型，让我们设计，让我们把它变成现实，让我们向人们展示。
And that's, I think, where a lot of people's minds are at more and more.
我认为，这就是很多人越来越关心的问题。
And maybe as a result, and this is almost like, okay, maybe that wasn't the right approach to start.
也许作为一个结果，这几乎就像，好吧，也许这不是正确的开始方法。
Maybe it's actually better to think a little bit of what we want to design and build before.
也许实际上最好先考虑一下我们想要设计和构建的内容。
And so just the fact that you guys spent so much of your life and time on that.
事实上，你们为此花费了大量的生命和时间。
And then realize this is actually potentially even more important to do, it says a lot.
然后意识到这实际上可能更重要，它说明了很多。
John Zeratsky: And ideas always get distilled down to one thing that people grab onto and they focus on.
约翰·泽拉茨基：想法总是会被提炼成人们抓住并关注的一件事。
And I think with the design sprint, it got distilled down to just build a prototype.
我认为通过设计冲刺，它被简化为构建一个原型。
Just quit messing around and build something.
别再胡闹了，去建造一些东西吧。
But the reality is when you run a design sprint, it's five days and you don't build the prototype until the fourth day.
但现实情况是，当你进行设计冲刺时，需要五天时间，直到第四天你才会构建原型。
So you do a bunch of work to figure out how does our customer learn about this thing?
所以你做了很多工作来弄清楚我们的客户是如何了解这个东西的？
What are the different ideas that we're bringing to what our solution could look like?
我们为我们的解决方案带来了哪些不同的想法？
Which of those are the most likely to work?
其中哪一个最有可能发挥作用？
And only then at the end of the week are you building a prototype.
只有到了周末，你才能构建原型。
John Zeratsky: But I do think that as that method has become really widely known, people just think about let's build something.
约翰·泽拉茨基：但我确实认为，随着这种方法已经广为人知，人们就会考虑让我们构建一些东西。
And then once you multiply that times the power of AI, it definitely creates this narrative that the only way to build something new is to just create the product as quickly as possible.
一旦你乘以人工智能的力量，它肯定会产生这样一种说法：构建新事物的唯一方法就是尽快创建产品。
And that doesn't really match our experience, that doesn't really fit the pattern of what we've seen working best across the few hundred companies that we've worked with.
这并不符合我们的经验，也不符合我们在合作过的数百家公司中看到的最有效的模式。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think this validates in some ways the role of a product manager where the PM's job is to help the team figure out what should we be building and are we all aligned on what we're building before we start designing and building?
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这在某种程度上验证了产品经理的角色，产品经理的工作是帮助团队弄清楚我们应该构建什么，以及在开始设计和构建之前我们是否都对我们正在构建的内容保持一致？
This process is almost like the product requirements document of a company.
这个过程几乎就像一个公司的产品需求文档。
Which I think a lot of product people listening to this will feel really good about.
我认为很多产品人员听到这个消息都会感觉非常好。
Jake Knapp: Yeah, we see this as a great tool for product people.
Jake Knapp：是的，我们认为这对于产品人员来说是一个很棒的工具。
It's a way to give you a structure for leading your team through those decisions.
这是一种为您提供领导团队完成这些决策的结构的方法。
And a way to give all the folks on a team, including the person who's the product leader.
以及一种为团队中的所有人（包括产品负责人）提供帮助的方法。
But the person who's the engineering leader, the person who's the marketing leader, sales leader, the design leaders, the exact right opportunity to contribute and participate in forming the strategy.
但是，作为工程领导者、营销领导者、销售领导者、设计领导者，正是贡献和参与制定战略的正确机会。
The exact right opportunity as we get into design sprints, following the foundation sprints, to then make it real.
当我们进入设计冲刺时，在基础冲刺之后，这是一个正确的机会，然后将其变为现实。
And turn that idea, that hypothesis about what might work into hopefully evidence that it does work.
并将这个想法、关于什么可能有效的假设转化为它确实有效的证据。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like it's actually more helpful to engineers, like non-product people, because I think a PM my brain would be like, I want to do this intuitively.
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得它实际上对工程师（例如非产品人员）更有帮助，因为我认为我的大脑会像产品经理一样，我想凭直觉做到这一点。
Whether they do it right or not.
不管他们做得对还是不对。
I think it's other functions almost they're like, no, let's just jump straight to design, straight to prototyping.
我认为其他功能几乎就像，不，让我们直接跳到设计，直接进行原型设计。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let me ask you ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我问你......
while we're on this tangent, we're on this wild tangent out of this process, but want to ...
当我们处于这个切线时，我们处于这个过程的疯狂切线中，但想要......
this question has been in my mind.
这个问题一直在我的脑海里。
Because I recently had a founder on the podcast, Maor, who built this company called Base44.
因为我最近在播客上找到了一位创始人 Maor，他创建了这家名为 Base44 的公司。
He built it, it sold in six months for $80 million.
他建造了它，并在六个月内以 8000 万美元的价格售出。
And this journey of that is he just had a problem he wanted to solve for himself, for his girlfriend, for a scouts program.
这段旅程是他想要为自己、为他的女朋友、为一个球探计划解决一个问题。
He built it, people started using it, and he kind of evolved it from there.
他建造了它，人们开始使用它，他从那里改进了它。
And obviously he didn't go through a process like this.
而他显然没有经历这样的过程。
Thoughts on just like, is it okay to just do that?
想一想，这样做可以吗？
When should someone think about, "Okay, I should actually set aside time to do a Foundation Sprint." Versus, I'm just motivated to solve a problem for my friends.
什么时候有人应该考虑：“好吧，我实际上应该留出时间来进行基础冲刺。”相反，我只是有动力为我的朋友解决问题。
I'm just going to build it, evolve it, iterate with them, and kind of go from there.
我只是要构建它，改进它，与它们一起迭代，然后从那里开始。
Jake Knapp: One of the observations from our hundreds of experiences working alongside founders in the early days of their projects and watching them make decisions and watching them try things and succeed or fail, is that there are so many founders who are incredibly bright, incredibly capable.
杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：我们在项目早期与创始人一起工作的数百次经验中观察到的一个观察结果是，有很多创始人非常聪明，非常有能力。
They have great insights about the market, about an opportunity.
他们对市场和机会有着深刻的见解。
And yet, their startup does not work out.
然而，他们的创业并没有成功。
And there's a problem with selection bias that we hear from the folks who they were brilliant, they checked all those boxes I just described.
我们从那些才华横溢的人那里听到了选择偏见的问题，他们检查了我刚才描述的所有这些框。
They saw a great opportunity, they were smart, they executed well, they had courage and conviction, and they did it and it worked out, and it was a tremendous success.
他们看到了一个巨大的机会，他们很聪明，他们执行得很好，他们有勇气和信念，他们做到了，而且成功了，这是巨大的成功。
Jake Knapp: And I think that the danger in thinking like, "Well, they didn't follow a process, so I don't need to." And that may be true and maybe you don't need it.
杰克·纳普：我认为这样的想法是危险的，“好吧，他们没有遵循流程，所以我不需要遵循。”这可能是真的，也许你不需要它。
But what we believe is you have a better ...
但我们相信您有更好的...
this just increases your odds.
这只会增加你的胜算。
This is a chance to get more clear on, is this a good opportunity?
这是一个更清楚的机会，这是一个好机会吗？
To get more clear on, will the thing I build click with customers?
更清楚地说，我构建的产品会受到客户的欢迎吗？
Jake Knapp: And if you've already figured out that no, this thing's ...
杰克·纳普：如果你已经明白了，不，这件事是......
my product has taken off, my product is working.
我的产品已经成功，我的产品正在发挥作用。
We've actually had founders in labs who they started off character labs and they said, "I started selling this thing and it's already taking off.
实际上，我们实验室里有一些创始人，他们从角色实验室开始，他们说，“我开始销售这个东西，它已经起飞了。
I want to stop running experiments." And we're like, "Yeah, stop running experiments." You don't need to do this if you've got product market fit, if you've got evidence that this thing is clicking and you have conviction, run with it.
我想停止进行实验。”我们就像，“是的，停止进行实验。”如果你的产品适合市场，如果你有证据表明这件事正在发生并且你有信念，那么你就不需要这样做。
But if you're not there, this is a great path to get you going.
但如果您不在那里，这是让您继续前进的好方法。
And if you're not sure if the thing you're going to build is going to turn into that $80 million exit in six months, we believe this is a good chance to improve your odds.
如果你不确定你要建造的东西是否会在六个月内变成 8000 万美元的退出，我们相信这是一个提高你胜算的好机会。
Lenny Rachitsky: People hearing this might feel like, I haven't heard of any company doing this that has become a trillion dollar IPO success.
Lenny Rachitsky：听到这句话的人可能会觉得，我还没有听说过任何一家公司这样做，并取得了万亿美元的 IPO 成功。
What would make me believe that this is the process I should follow versus just, I'm just going to do what I hear on YC, just build it, launch it, iterate, that kind of thing.
是什么让我相信这是我应该遵循的流程，而不是仅仅做我在 YC 上听到的事情，只是构建它、启动它、迭代，诸如此类的事情。
What can you share to give people confidence this is the approach to take?
您可以分享什么来让人们相信这是应该采取的方法？
John Zeratsky: Well, the first thing I'd say is give us some time where we're pretty new to this.
John Zeratsky：嗯，我想说的第一件事是给我们一些时间，让我们对此还很陌生。
We started Character Labs about three years ago.
大约三年前，我们开始了角色实验室。
We created the Foundation Sprint about three years ago.
大约三年前，我们创建了基础冲刺。
But more seriously, when we were creating this method, one of the things that we did was look back across all the projects we've been involved in and the ones that were really successful, and we looked for patterns.
但更严重的是，当我们创建这种方法时，我们所做的一件事就是回顾我们参与过的所有项目以及那些真正成功的项目，然后我们寻找模式。
And while those teams didn't have the Foundation Sprint, they ended up having really clear differentiation and a really clear view of what made them unique that they were able to build on.
虽然这些团队没有基础冲刺，但他们最终获得了非常清晰的差异化，并且非常清晰地了解了是什么让他们独一无二，并能够在此基础上继续发展。
And as we ran design sprints with them, we were able to test and validate against that differentiation.
当我们与他们一起进行设计冲刺时，我们能够针对这种差异进行测试和验证。
So we believe that this is sort of a key to success, even if those teams didn't have access to this exact same methodology.
因此，我们相信这是成功的关键，即使这些团队无法使用完全相同的方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing is this is essentially like Alpha in starting a company.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听到的是，这本质上就像阿尔法创办公司一样。
This is a new process that companies are just starting to use.
这是公司刚刚开始使用的新流程。
You guys are working closely with founders, and it's rooted in the success of many, many, many companies that you guys were involved in early on and continue to be involved in.
你们正在与创始人密切合作，这植根于你们早期参与并继续参与的许多、许多、许多公司的成功。
Jake Knapp: Yeah, it's based off of this thing we've seen again and again in the most successful projects.
Jake Knapp：是的，它基于我们在最成功的项目中一次又一次看到的东西。
When we're inside the room in the early days and we're seeing people make decisions, this is what drives those decisions.
当我们早期在房间里看到人们做出决定时，这就是推动这些决定的因素。
It's differentiation.
这就是差异化。
And so if we look back across all of the sprints that we've been a part of over the years, and John and I have been inside lots of these rooms, lots of these conversations.
因此，如果我们回顾这些年来我们参与的所有冲刺，约翰和我已经在很多这样的房间里，进行过很多这样的对话。
Lenny Rachitsky: And if you're not watching on YouTube, by the way, there's a cool visual that Jake is showing.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您没有在 YouTube 上观看，顺便说一下，Jake 正在展示一个很酷的视觉效果。
Jake Knapp: Yeah, it spans across Google, Google Ventures, Character Capital, and if you're watching on YouTube, you'll see all these little white circles.
Jake Knapp：是的，它涵盖了 Google、Google Ventures、Character Capital，如果你在 YouTube 上观看，你会看到所有这些白色的小圆圈。
And each one sort of represents a company that we've seen inside of during these design sprints.
每一种都代表了我们在这些设计冲刺期间看到的一家公司。
And there are a lot of really great success stories in there.
那里有很多非常伟大的成功故事。
We've had the chance to ...
我们有机会...
I mentioned the story of Google Meet and being there and figuring out what is it that's going to make this thing stand out?
我提到了 Google Meet 的故事，并了解了是什么让这个东西脱颖而出？
That was what made the project finally start to take off.
这就是使该项目最终开始起飞的原因。
And to this day is still sort of what animates it.
直到今天，这仍然是它的活力所在。
Being inside of the early days of what became Google Photos or Google Trips and some of the early design sprints, and there are a lot of others on here.
参与了 Google Photos 或 Google Trips 的早期发展以及一些早期的设计冲刺，这里还有很多其他的设计冲刺。
Jake Knapp: But honestly, of course, we've also seen inside a lot that it didn't work out.
杰克·纳普：但老实说，当然，我们也看到很多内部情况并没有成功。
If we looked inside the greatest hits though, the real smash successes, we looked inside all of those.
如果我们深入研究最伟大的热门歌曲、真正的成功案例，我们就会深入研究所有这些。
We realized there is a common element, and that common element in all of them is differentiation.
我们意识到有一个共同点，而所有这些的共同点就是差异化。
That there was clarity around this is what we're trying to prove to customers, this is the promise we're making.
我们试图向客户证明这一点是明确的，这是我们做出的承诺。
And so we've been on those teams, or we've worked alongside those founders who have this clear idea of differentiation.
因此，我们一直在这些团队中，或者我们与那些有着清晰的差异化理念的创始人一起工作。
And sometimes they're not right.
有时他们是不对的。
They run the experiments and they change it.
他们进行实验并改变它。
But the thing is, they're keyed into differentiation as being crucial.
但问题是，他们认为差异化至关重要。
They're not just thinking about the product and trying to get the right shape of the product or trying to make it usable or whatever.
他们不仅仅考虑产品并试图获得产品的正确形状或试图使其可用或其他什么。
They're really keyed in on differentiation and how do we find the right promise and deliver on that promise and express that promise to customers.
他们真正关注的是差异化以及我们如何找到正确的承诺并兑现该承诺并向客户表达该承诺。
Jake Knapp: So to explain a little bit quickly of what I mean by differentiation and how this has manifested in products we've seen, if you go back to the early days of Gmail in the 2000s, if you had email, you were probably using Hotmail or Yahoo and it worked fine and you didn't have to think about it.
Jake Knapp：所以，为了快速解释一下我所说的差异化的含义以及差异化在我们所看到的产品中的体现，如果你回到 2000 年代 Gmail 的早期，如果你有电子邮件，你可能正在使用 Hotmail 或 Yahoo，它运行得很好，你不需要考虑它。
And this new product comes along and you're like, "God, I'm not going to want to switch my email address.
当这个新产品出现时，你会想，“天啊，我不想改变我的电子邮件地址。
What a hassle.
真麻烦啊。
Who wants to do that?
谁愿意这样做？
No one." Gmail's promise was, hey, massive storage, great search.
没有人。” Gmail 的承诺是，嘿，海量存储，出色的搜索。
And as we were building the product out and marketing and explaining it to people and making decisions inside the project, we had to continue to deliver on great search.
当我们构建产品、营销并向人们解释并在项目内做出决策时，我们必须继续提供出色的搜索。
Great search, great search, that was key to standing out.
出色的搜索，出色的搜索，这是脱颖而出的关键。
Jake Knapp: You fast forward to 2014, and we're working with this tiny company who's now competing with Gmail, who's now sort of the market leader people are used to using in their teams.
Jake Knapp：快进到 2014 年，我们正在与这家小公司合作，它现在正在与 Gmail 竞争，而 Gmail 现在是人们在团队中习惯使用的市场领导者。
And here's this new messaging software called Slack, and they're trying to reach new customers.
这是一款名为 Slack 的新消息传递软件，他们正在努力吸引新客户。
And gosh, switching to Slack is an even bigger hassle than switching to your email address because everybody on the team has to switch.
天哪，切换到 Slack 比切换到电子邮件地址更麻烦，因为团队中的每个人都必须切换。
Well, Slack says, "Hey, if you believe that having fun and boosting teamwork is important, it's going to be clear to you.
好吧，Slack 说：“嘿，如果你相信享受乐趣和促进团队合作很重要，那么你就会很清楚了。
This is a new way of looking at the world." And when they were making their decisions in their first big ad campaign, their first big marketing campaign, this was what they were trying to convey to customers.
这是一种看待世界的新方式。”当他们在第一次大型广告活动、第一次大型营销活动中做出决定时，这就是他们试图向客户传达的信息。
So we kind of see that from the inside.
所以我们从内部看到了这一点。
Jake Knapp: Another one, we didn't see this one from the inside, but in one that we're all sort of familiar with is what happened with ChatGPT.
Jake Knapp：另一件事，我们没有从内部看到这一点，但我们都熟悉的是 ChatGPT 发生的事情。
It goes from this trusted, I don't have to think about it, I'm going to run a Google search.
它来自于这个可信的，我不必考虑它，我要去运行谷歌搜索。
To, oh, wow.
到，哦，哇。
It's a new way of looking at the world.
这是一种看待世界的新方式。
There's zero clicks, just tells you the answer.
零点击，只告诉你答案。
This thing's great.
这东西太棒了
Jake Knapp: This is also something that we've seen in some of the early success stories from our own portfolio.
Jake Knapp：这也是我们在我们自己的投资组合中的一些早期成功案例中看到的。
So 2019, this company called Reclaim going after calendar management.
所以到了2019年，这家名为Reclaim的公司开始进行日历管理。
And most of us manage our own calendars, most of us don't have administrators helping us out with that.
我们大多数人都管理自己的日历，但没有管理员来帮助我们解决这个问题。
And it's free, we're in control.
而且它是免费的，一切尽在我们的掌控之中。
Reclaim's argument was, hey, we can automatically, we can use AI to help you focus and to automatically prioritize your calendar.
Reclaim 的论点是，嘿，我们可以自动地，我们可以使用人工智能来帮助你集中注意力并自动确定你的日历的优先顺序。
And that animated enough people to take the plunge and switch and try it out, that they were able to build up an audience of tens of thousands of users, and Dropbox acquired them last year.
这激励了足够多的人冒险尝试，他们能够建立起数以万计的用户群体，Dropbox 去年收购了他们。
Lenny Rachitsky: A great answer to my question, you guys well-prepared for those skeptics.
Lenny Rachitsky：对我的问题的一个很好的回答，你们为那些怀疑论者做好了充分的准备。
John Zeratsky: Part of our motivation, our selfish motivation with this Foundation Sprint is that now that we are investing our own money into companies and we're working with all these founders, we want them to have that same clarity on differentiation.
John Zeratsky：我们的部分动机，我们对这个基金会冲刺的自私动机是，现在我们将自己的资金投入到公司中，并且我们正在与所有这些创始人合作，我们希望他们对差异化有同样的清晰度。
We saw how important that was to Gmail and to Slack and to all these other companies.
我们看到这对于 Gmail、Slack 以及所有其他公司有多么重要。
And we want to bring that, we want to give them that same advantage and help them avoid the pitfalls that all the other unsuccessful teams and companies that we've seen have fallen into.
我们想要实现这一点，我们想要给他们同样的优势，帮助他们避免我们所见过的所有其他不成功的团队和公司所陷入的陷阱。
So that's kind of what we're trying to do here, is bring the lessons from these really successful teams into any team that reads the book and runs this process.
因此，这就是我们在这里尝试做的事情，即将这些真正成功的团队的经验教训带到任何阅读本书并运行此流程的团队中。
Jake Knapp: And the special sauce that John and I bring is that we're obsessed with the sequence of decisions that you make and how you work together with your team to make good decisions quickly.
杰克·纳普：约翰和我带来的特别之处在于，我们痴迷于您做出的决策的顺序以及您如何与团队合作快速做出正确的决策。
And that specificity about the method is something that we do have a lot of evidence behind it working well because of what's happened with the design sprint and with how many successful teams have run that at those companies who are trillion dollar or whatever kind of giant ...
这种方法的特殊性是我们确实有很多证据证明它运作良好，因为设计冲刺发生了什么，以及有多少成功的团队在那些价值数万亿美元或任何类型的巨头公司中运行了这种方法......
all kinds of teams run design sprints.
各种团队都会进行设计冲刺。
This is that same methodology around how we work together at high velocity and high quality.
这与我们如何高速、高质量地合作的方法相同。
And it's just brought to a different part of the process.
它只是被带到流程的不同部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: Excellent answer.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：很好的答案。
Speaking of the method, we went on the world's most epic tangent.
说到方法，我们就走了世界上最史诗般的切线。
I want to bring us back.
我想把我们带回来。
We haven't finished actually going through the process.
我们实际上还没有完成这个过程。
I think we're towards the tail end of it.
我认为我们已经接近尾声了。
So let's just finish that.
那么让我们完成这个吧。
What else do you do?
你还做什么？
So you have this ...
所以你有这个...
I guess, catch us up.
我想，赶上我们吧。
Jake Knapp: Let's catch up with Latch It.
Jake Knapp：让我们赶上 Latch It。
So as a refresher for you who forgot.
让那些忘记的人重温一下。
Latch It are building this tool for artisans, they want to help them sell with the community networking features like you might find on Substack.
Latch It 正在为工匠构建这个工具，他们希望帮助他们使用社区网络功能进行销售，就像您可能在 Substack 上找到的那样。
And they've identified their differentiation, they've identified their approach now using magic lenses.
他们已经确定了自己的差异化，他们现在已经使用魔法镜头确定了自己的方法。
And all of this is going to come together to create a founding hypothesis.
所有这些都将共同创造一个基础假设。
So if we help Artisans solve online sales growth with a social sales app, and then they've also got their backup plan.
因此，如果我们通过社交销售应用程序帮助 Artisans 解决在线销售增长问题，那么他们也可以获得后备计划。
Jake Knapp: A social sales app.
Jake Knapp：一款社交销售应用程序。
Then, they've also got their backup plan, or we could build the full stack solution if that doesn't work.
然后，他们还制定了备份计划，或者如果这不起作用，我们可以构建完整的堆栈解决方案。
We believe they're going to choose it over Shopify and Etsy because our solution is cooperative and easy to use.
我们相信他们会选择它而不是 Shopify 和 Etsy，因为我们的解决方案具有合作性且易于使用。
In this single sentence, we've laid bare their strategy, and now they're going to try to find out does that work?
在这一句话中，我们已经揭露了他们的策略，现在他们将尝试找出这是否有效？
Lenny Rachitsky: That is so cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太酷了。
The output of the sprint is the founding hypothesis.
冲刺的输出是基础假设。
I love that the term hypothesis is a part of this because it's not telling you this will work.
我喜欢“假设”这个术语，因为它并没有告诉你这会起作用。
It's this is the thing you will now test.
这就是您现在要测试的东西。
Jake Knapp: Absolutely.
杰克·纳普：当然。
Every project has at its core ...
每个项目的核心都是...
Every new product has at its core a hypothesis.
每个新产品的核心都有一个假设。
There is a founding hypothesis.
有一个基础假设。
It's just usually not explicit.
只是通常不明确。
It's usually hidden, and different people on the team may have different ideas about what it is.
它通常是隐藏的，团队中的不同人可能对它是什么有不同的想法。
Jake Knapp: Because it's not explicit, it's very hard to interrogate it and test it and find out if the different variables in it are the right variables.
Jake Knapp：因为它不明确，所以很难询问它并测试它并找出其中的不同变量是否是正确的变量。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm curious what's in that photo to the right as you're showing the YouTube.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很好奇你在 YouTube 上展示的右边照片里有什么。
Jake Knapp: Oh, yeah, if you're on YouTube.
Jake Knapp：哦，是的，如果你在 YouTube 上。
We did this spread together in person.
我们亲自一起进行了传播。
On Lachit's board, you're going to see that here's where they wrote it out and took a photo of it and dropped it in, and then later filled it out on the Miro board.
在 Lachit 的板上，你会看到他们在这里写下它，拍一张照片，然后把它放进去，然后在 Miro 板上填写。
Lenny Rachitsky: Beautiful.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：美丽。
It has their old name there there.
那里有他们的旧名字。
Jake Knapp: Lyric, which it turns out is not the easiest for SEO.
Jake Knapp：Lyric，事实证明这对于 SEO 来说并不是最容易的。
There's a lot of lot of Lyrics out there.
那里有很多很多歌词。
Lenny Rachitsky: There is a lot of Lyrics.
Lenny Rachitsky：有很多歌词。
I know some Lyrics.
我知道一些歌词。
Just so I understand, is the next step, the design sprint, and that's where you actually start testing?
据我了解，下一步是设计冲刺，这就是您真正开始测试的地方吗？
Jake Knapp: Exactly.
杰克·纳普：没错。
If we zoom out now we see now they're going to head into a sequence of design sprints running one after another.
如果我们现在缩小范围，我们会看到他们现在将进入一系列相继运行的设计冲刺。
Each of those design sprints starts with the founding hypothesis.
每个设计冲刺都从基本假设开始。
Jake Knapp: Then, the team is going to say, "Okay, what are the biggest risks that ...
杰克·纳普：然后，团队会说，“好吧，最大的风险是什么......
That hypothesis not being true?
这个假设不是真的吗？
What do we need to assess right now?"
我们现在需要评估什么？”
Jake Knapp: Going to make a map of how customers discover the product, what that core experience looks like, and then figure out using that map, where's the key moment for assessing that risk?
Jake Knapp：制作一张地图，展示客户如何发现产品、核心体验是什么样的，然后使用该地图找出评估风险的关键时刻在哪里？
Jake Knapp: For them, the biggest risk is do people even ...
杰克·纳普：对他们来说，最大的风险是人们甚至……
Will these artisans even want this thing?
这些工匠会想要这个东西吗？
Are they actually going to want to have a community sharing sales platform?
他们真的想要一个社区共享销售平台吗？
They decide the key moment for us to test that, it's actually on the landing page.
他们决定了我们测试的关键时刻，它实际上是在登陆页面上。
They figure we can prototype landing pages that describe the product and learn a lot for our first experiment, just with landing pages.
他们认为我们可以对描述产品的登陆页面进行原型设计，并且仅通过登陆页面就可以为我们的第一个实验学到很多东西。
Jake Knapp: They're going to sketch solutions.
Jake Knapp：他们将草拟解决方案。
This will be familiar to anyone who's heard about design sprints.
任何听说过设计冲刺的人都会熟悉这一点。
Each person sketching their own proposal for how that key moment should work.
每个人都草拟了自己关于关键时刻应该如何运作的建议。
Choose the strongest of those.
选择其中最强的。
Jake Knapp: In this case, they choose ...
杰克·纳普：在这种情况下，他们选择......
They're going to actually prototype three things.
他们实际上将制作三样东西的原型。
They test three things head-to-head against each other, fake brands for each one.
他们面对面地测试三样东西，每样东西都是假品牌。
They look like three different products.
它们看起来像三种不同的产品。
Jake Knapp: Then, this is a really key part.
Jake Knapp：那么，这是一个非常关键的部分。
At the end of the design sprint, we've got a scorecard.
在设计冲刺结束时，我们得到了一张记分卡。
This is actually a new innovation.
这实际上是一个新的创新。
This is not in the .
这不在 .
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, shit.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：噢，该死。
Here we go.
开始了。
Hot off the presses, design sprint improvement.
热压印刷机，设计冲刺改进。
Jake Knapp: This scorecard is going to break down the founding hypothesis.
杰克·纳普：这张记分卡将打破最初的假设。
Hey, as we talk to each customer, was this the right person?
嘿，当我们与每位客户交谈时，这是合适的人选吗？
Is the right kind of customer for us?
什么样的客户适合我们？
Do they have the problem that we think they have?
他们有我们认为他们有的问题吗？
Was this the right approach for them?
这对他们来说是正确的方法吗？
Did they choose it over the competition?
他们是在竞争中选择它的吗？
Jake Knapp: They're going to test these prototypes head-to-head, and also show people like, okay, here's Etsy, here's Shopify.
Jake Knapp：他们将直接测试这些原型，并向人们展示，好吧，这里是 Etsy，这里是 Shopify。
Now, out of all these five options, think about, out loud, about how do you compare these?
现在，在所有这五个选项中，大声思考如何比较它们？
Do we believe they'd actually choose it?
我们相信他们真的会选择它吗？
Did the differentiation actually work?
差异化真的有效吗？
Are those differentiators valuable and motivating to them?
这些差异化因素对他们有价值并有激励作用吗？
Does it click?
它会点击吗？
Jake Knapp: Our new book is called Click.
Jake Knapp：我们的新书叫《Click》。
The idea there is you can see when a product clicks with one person, and that's a helpful signal.
这个想法是，当一个产品与一个人产生共鸣时，你可以看到，这是一个有用的信号。
Now, granted, these interviews are kind of a simulation.
现在，诚然，这些采访是一种模拟。
It's not like the real world, but they're a helpful signal that we're on track for product market fit.
这与现实世界不同，但它们是一个有用的信号，表明我们正走在产品市场契合的轨道上。
If we see, gosh, this product just seems to be clicking with customer after customer, that's a really strong signal.
如果我们看到，天哪，这个产品似乎受到了一个又一个客户的欢迎，那就是一个非常强烈的信号。
That's when people start to get the confidence that it's time to build.
那时人们开始有信心，是时候进行建设了。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really good term, by the way.
Lenny Rachitsky：顺便说一句，这是一个非常好的术语。
I feel that's such a good way to describe what it feels like.
我觉得这是描述这种感觉的一个很好的方式。
It doesn't just click with them.
它不仅仅与他们合拍。
Jake Knapp: Just kind of clicks.
Jake Knapp：只需点击一下即可。
Yeah.
是的。
If you look across Latchet's first scorecard, there's a ton of red.
如果你看一下 Latchet 的第一张记分卡，就会发现有很多红色。
It's a lot of things that didn't work.
有很多事情都没有成功。
Jake Knapp: The conclusion at the end ...
杰克·纳普：最后的结论......
In this last column, there's a conclusion, hey, we interviewed ...
在最后一篇专栏中，有一个结论，嘿，我们采访了......
In this case, they interviewed four customers.
在这种情况下，他们采访了四位客户。
Well, it looks like this is the right customer.
嗯，看来这是正确的客户。
It looks like they have this problem, but everything else kind of didn't work about the hypothesis.
看起来他们有这个问题，但其他一切都对这个假设不起作用。
Approach wasn't working, differentiation wasn't working.
方法不起作用，差异化不起作用。
There's some mini hypotheses about the prototype itself.
关于原型本身有一些微小的假设。
Just lots of red on here, so they sprint again and-
这里只有很多红色，所以他们再次冲刺，然后——
John Zeratsky: Just zooming out for a second, this is a team who just started working on this new company.
John Zeratsky：稍微缩小一下，这是一个刚刚开始在这家新公司工作的团队。
Sometimes it can feel slow.
有时会感觉很慢。
We talked about it feeling slow to go through all these steps, but they're only a week in.
我们谈到感觉完成所有这些步骤很慢，但它们只需要一周时间。
They've already built three prototypes, and they've tested those three prototypes with four real customers.
他们已经构建了三个原型，并且已经与四个真实客户测试了这三个原型。
John Zeratsky: They have this super detailed scorecard of here's what's working, here's what's not working.
John Zeratsky：他们有一张超级详细的记分卡，其中列出了哪些有效，哪些无效。
That's after a week.
那是一周后的事了。
It's interesting how what can feel slow in the hour to hour actually can really speed you up in the weeks and months timescale.
有趣的是，在一个小时内感觉缓慢的事情实际上可以在几周和几个月的时间内真正加快你的速度。
Lenny Rachitsky: That was such good context, because I was feeling that.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常好的背景，因为我有这种感觉。
To your point, most founders do not do this much testing, iterating, learning in the first few weeks of their startup.
就你的观点而言，大多数创始人在创业的最初几周并没有进行这么多的测试、迭代和学习。
John Zeratsky: Yeah.
约翰·泽拉茨基：是的。
They might spend a few weeks just talking to customers without showing a prototype, and then they might spend a few months building an MVP, and then they might ...
他们可能会花几周的时间与客户交谈而不展示原型，然后他们可能会花几个月的时间构建 MVP，然后他们可能......
Maybe they're going to spend some more time talking to customers while showing them the MVP.
也许他们会花更多时间与客户交谈，同时向他们展示 MVP。
Maybe they'll do manual onboarding, something like that.
也许他们会进行手动入职，类似的事情。
John Zeratsky: Yeah, that plays out over months.
约翰·泽拉茨基：是的，这需要几个月的时间。
It fits with what founders tell us.
这与创始人告诉我们的相符。
Of course it's a subjective measure, but founders who go through this process with us, they say that they're able to accelerate three to four months of work into the three or four weeks back-to-back sprints that we're doing together in Character Labs.
当然，这是一个主观衡量标准，但与我们一起经历这个过程的创始人表示，他们能够将三到四个月的工作加速为我们在角色实验室一起进行的三到四周的连续冲刺。
Lenny Rachitsky: Excellent context.
Lenny Rachitsky：非常好的背景。
Thanks for throwing that in there.
谢谢你把它扔在那里。
Jake Knapp: These conversations with customers are so much more fruitful and pointed when you've got the context of I know exactly what my hypothesis is and you have prototypes to show them.
Jake Knapp：当你了解我确切地知道我的假设是什么并且你有原型可以向他们展示时，与客户的这些对话会更加富有成果和针对性。
Jake Knapp: We have a founder in our group of startups and Character Labs at the moment.
Jake Knapp：目前我们的初创公司和角色实验室团队中有一位创始人。
I'm thinking of Maruthi John who comes from doing sales at Rippling, who had been talking to tons of customers while starting off the ...
我想到了来自 Rippling 销售部门的 Maruthi John，他在开始...
His company.
他的公司。
He said, "I've had 50 conversations over the past month, but I learned so much more from even the first conversation when I had a hypothesis and I had a prototype, or a couple prototypes, to show them.
他说：“过去一个月我已经进行了 50 次对话，但即使是第一次对话，当我有了一个假设并且我有一个原型或几个原型可以向他们展示时，我也学到了很多东西。
It's like night and day."
就像白天和黑夜一样。”
Lenny Rachitsky: That is a great example.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的例子。
This all makes sense.
这都是有道理的。
As you guys describe it, you're actually testing something very concrete that your entire team is aligned behind and actual prototypes, and you've thought about different directions.
正如你们所描述的，您实际上正在测试一些非常具体的东西，您的整个团队都在实际原型的背后保持一致，并且您已经考虑了不同的方向。
You're testing something very specific versus just generally testing at your general concept.
您正在测试一些非常具体的东西，而不是只是一般性地测试您的一般概念。
Jake Knapp: As we go into the second design sprint for Latchet, they're making some edits to their founding hypothesis.
Jake Knapp：当我们进入 Latchet 的第二次设计冲刺时，他们正在对其基本假设进行一些修改。
Now, they're revising a few things, making new sketches, new proposals for what this solution might look like.
现在，他们正在修改一些东西，为这个解决方案的外观制作新的草图和新的建议。
They've learned a lot in that first sprint, a new prototype.
他们在第一个冲刺中学到了很多东西，一个新的原型。
They've got a prototype that has more detail now.
他们已经有了一个原型，现在有更多细节。
They are engineers.
他们是工程师。
They're starting to actually write some code and put some more detail behind the product.
他们开始实际编写一些代码并在产品背后添加更多细节。
It's more robust.
它更坚固。
Again, they're trying to fix that positioning.
他们再次试图修复这一定位。
Jake Knapp: Here's their scorecard.
Jake Knapp：这是他们的记分卡。
If you're watching on YouTube, you'll be able to see it.
如果您在 YouTube 上观看，您就能看到它。
Again, there's a lot of red here.
再说一次，这里有很多红色。
At first blush, the scorecard is bleeding, but there are some promising signs.
乍一看，记分卡正在流血，但也有一些有希望的迹象。
There's like maybe a few little sunbreaks, there's some spots where some of the red has started to flip to yellow.
可能会有一些小阳光，有些地方的红色开始变成黄色。
Jake Knapp: If we look at the conclusion on the far right, they're starting to believe their differentiation is dialed in, and they're starting to believe that this could be the right approach.
杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：如果我们看看最右边的结论，他们开始相信他们的差异化已经实现，并且他们开始相信这可能是正确的方法。
They may be able to get people to choose it to the competition, even though they haven't done it yet.
他们也许能够让人们选择它参加比赛，即使他们还没有这样做。
Those are starting to become yellow lights on the scorecard.
这些开始变成记分卡上的黄灯。
Jake Knapp: Now they'll take what they've learned, and now we're into the third consecutive week of design sprints.
Jake Knapp：现在他们将利用他们所学到的知识，现在我们已经进入连续第三周的设计冲刺。
Again, they're going to sort of review that founding hypothesis.
他们将再次回顾这一基本假设。
They're going to sketch.
他们要画素描。
They're recruiting a new slate of customers, as they do each week.
他们每周都会招募一批新客户。
A new prototype, again, more code in the prototype.
一个新的原型，原型中又出现了更多代码。
It's becoming more and more robust, more realistic as they're also adjusting the marketing and the positioning at the same time.
它变得越来越强大、越来越现实，因为他们同时也在调整营销和定位。
Jake Knapp: All of these things kind of go in concert.
杰克·纳普：所有这些事情都是一致的。
The product itself and the marketing are sort of one as they're moving along, and this is an extreme example of-
产品本身和营销在某种程度上是一体的，这是一个极端的例子——
Jake Knapp: If you can't see it, every single one is green.
杰克·纳普：如果你看不到它，每一个都是绿色的。
Jake Knapp: This is extreme, but it is a pattern that we've seen.
Jake Knapp：这很极端，但这是我们已经看到的一种模式。
Jake Knapp: Again and again.
杰克·纳普：一次又一次。
This is a real example.
这是一个真实的例子。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
How do I invest to get us in this round?
我该如何投资才能进入这一轮？
This is great.
这太棒了。
Jake Knapp: We see this again and again.
杰克·纳普：我们一次又一次地看到这种情况。
I can share a couple of other boards of ones that are in progress.
我可以分享其他几个正在进行中的委员会。
We're also constantly adjusting the template so you can get to see a little bit more how people will edit their founding hypothesis from sprint to sprint.
我们还在不断调整模板，以便您可以更多地了解人们如何在不同的冲刺中编辑他们的基本假设。
Jake Knapp: Mellow, who we were talking about, here's their first prototype, and here's their first scorecard.
Jake Knapp：Mellow，我们正在谈论谁，这是他们的第一个原型，这是他们的第一个记分卡。
Lots of yellow for them.
他们有很多黄色。
Maybe they're a little bit more likely to use yellow than red.
也许他们更喜欢使用黄色而不是红色。
Jake Knapp: Then, here's the edits to their founding hypothesis after the first sprint.
Jake Knapp：那么，这是第一次冲刺后对他们的基本假设的修改。
You can kind of see in red, they're slightly changing the definition of their target customer from the first week, slightly changing the problem that they're solving, slightly changing the approach, slightly changing the competition.
你可以看到红色，他们从第一周开始稍微改变了目标客户的定义，稍微改变了他们正在解决的问题，稍微改变了方法，稍微改变了竞争。
Jake Knapp: They've dialed in, they've gotten more crisp on who are we up against.
杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：他们已经拨通电话，他们对我们的对手是谁更加清晰。
They've gotten a little bit more crisp, just a tiny tweak, on what ...
它们变得更加清晰了，只是做了一点小小的调整，...
How do we explain this to people to get them excited about it?
我们如何向人们解释这一点以使他们对此感到兴奋？
What's the differentiation?
有什么区别？
They sprint again, they prototype again.
他们再次冲刺，再次原型制作。
If we just jump down, and just looking at hypotheses, they learn a bunch.
如果我们只是跳下去，看看假设，他们就会学到很多东西。
Now there's another slight tweak to that founding hypothesis.
现在，对该基本假设进行了另一个细微的调整。
Week after week you're learning, but you're also really able to track exactly what is it that we learned and how does that affect our strategy.
一周又一周，你在学习，但你也确实能够准确跟踪我们学到了什么以及它如何影响我们的策略。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, guys, this was incredible.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，伙计们，这太不可思议了。
I think we've covered the entire process.
我想我们已经涵盖了整个过程。
I love that you also covered the design sprint pieces, which isn't part of this book, but is such a core.
我喜欢你还涵盖了设计冲刺部分，这不是本书的一部分，但却是一个核心。
Lenny Rachitsky: Clearly these things are very connected and meant to work together.
Lenny Rachitsky：显然，这些东西是紧密相连的，并且应该协同工作。
You go from here's the thing we should be building to how to actually test it.
你从这里开始我们应该构建的东西，然后转到如何实际测试它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let me ask you before we wrap up, is there anything else that you think is really important for people to know before they start trying this process at home?
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们结束之前，让我问你，你认为人们在开始在家尝试这个过程之前，还有什么是真正重要的吗？
Is there anything you can point them to actually try this at home?
您可以指导他们在家中实际尝试一下吗？
Jake Knapp: One thing we didn't talk about, we used an example of a company who's not building an AI-first product.
Jake Knapp：有一件事我们没有谈论，我们使用了一家没有构建人工智能优先产品的公司的例子。
Latchet's building this network community sales platform for artisans.
Latchet 正在为工匠打造这个网络社区销售平台。
Jake Knapp: It'd probably be interesting to look at how people use this when they are building a very technical product, when they're vibe coding prototypes.
Jake Knapp：看看人们在构建技术性很强的产品时，在进行氛围编码原型时如何使用它，可能会很有趣。
That's a question we're getting all the time.
这是我们一直收到的一个问题。
What's the influence on this of the speed with which you can build something?
构建某些东西的速度对此有什么影响？
Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome idea.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的主意。
Let's definitely do that.
我们一定要这么做。
Jake Knapp: Yeah.
杰克·纳普：是的。
Okay.
好的。
Let's jump in here and take a look at a company again, in our current group of labs teams, Axion Orbital it's called.
让我们再次跳到这里来看看我们当前的实验室团队中的一家公司，它的名字叫 Axion Orbital。
The founder, , is actually running this whole process solo, which is pretty cool too.
创始人实际上是独自运行整个过程，这也很酷。
He's a remarkable guy.
他是一个了不起的人。
We have a couple of solo founders right now who are able to generate ...
我们现在有几个独立创始人，他们能够产生......
Jake Knapp: You can see, just to give a sneak peek, he's generating, when we talk about customers, all these sticky notes himself and making the decisions himself about which is the right one.
杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：你可以看到，只是为了让大家先睹为快，当我们谈论客户时，他自己制作了所有这些便利贴，并自己决定哪一个是正确的。
Jake Knapp: To ground us in this story, his founding hypothesis is he wants to help geospatial devs solve these sort of complex workflows with a browser-based no-code development environment.
Jake Knapp：为了让我们了解这个故事，他的基本假设是他希望帮助地理空间开发人员通过基于浏览器的无代码开发环境解决此类复杂的工作流程。
We'll take a look just really quickly at what his prototypes look like.
我们将很快地看看他的原型是什么样子。
Jake Knapp: In the first week ...
杰克·纳普：第一周……
I can show you this prototype right here, and it's a marketing page.
我可以在这里向您展示这个原型，它是一个营销页面。
On this marketing page, there's a link to a video.
在此营销页面上，有一个视频链接。
If I click find out more, I'm going to see this video.
如果我点击“了解更多”，我就会看到这个视频。
This video is going to kind of hear talking over it.
这段视频会让人听到关于它的讨论。
It's going to kind of walk through a screen share of a very rudimentary version of what this product might look like.
它将通过屏幕分享该产品的非常基本的版本。
Jake Knapp: Now, if you're watching on YouTube and you see this prototype, you might think, "Boy, that marketing page and the demo itself, pretty bare bones.
Jake Knapp：现在，如果您在 YouTube 上观看并看到这个原型，您可能会想，“天哪，那个营销页面和演示本身，非常简单。
Not the most polished-looking.
不是看起来最精致的。
This doesn't look super compelling."
这看起来不太引人注目。”
Jake Knapp: He was focusing in that first sprint on the messaging, on finding those people who actually have that role, testing it with them, and he learned a lot.
Jake Knapp：他在第一个冲刺中专注于消息传递，寻找那些真正担任该角色的人，与他们一起进行测试，他学到了很多东西。
If we sort of go back to his scorecard, we'll see, okay, that was a pretty good one.
如果我们回顾一下他的记分卡，我们会发现，好吧，这是一个非常好的记分卡。
Actually, a lot of green on his first scorecard, but he also felt like what he tested was pretty incomplete.
事实上，他的第一张记分卡上有很多绿色，但他也觉得他测试的东西相当不完整。
Jake Knapp: Now, one thing that's cool here, we saw the big leap with Latchet from one week to another in terms of their learnings and the scorecards.
Jake Knapp：现在，有一件很酷的事情，我们看到了 Latchet 在学习和记分卡方面从一周到另一周的巨大飞跃。
One of the things that's interesting here is to go from 's first prototype here to his second prototype.
这里有趣的事情之一是从这里的第一个原型到他的第二个原型。
Jake Knapp: It's obvious he's been able to just build a ton in the next week.
Jake Knapp：很明显，他在下周就完成了很多工作。
He's using AI-based tools.
他正在使用基于人工智能的工具。
He's doing a lot of work.
他正在做很多工作。
He's also just a terrific engineer.
他也是一位出色的工程师。
Here we've got a much more real-looking marketing page, very detailed.
在这里，我们有一个更加真实的营销页面，非常详细。
Jake Knapp: An important thing that he's done here with this is he's built out a lot and created a video of something so that the product, while not fully functional, you can see exactly how it works.
Jake Knapp：他在这里所做的一件重要的事情是，他做了很多工作，并制作了一些东西的视频，以便该产品虽然功能不完全，但您可以准确地看到它是如何工作的。
If we sort of play this video, he's created this demonstration of what it looks like when you type in a query into the engine and exactly the kinds of results you get.
如果我们播放这个视频，他会创建一个演示，展示当您在引擎中输入查询时的样子以及您得到的结果类型。
By doing a combination of vibe coding, real coding, all of which is based off of pencil sketches, we can go back and see the sketches he's doing on paper to define this is what I think needs to be in there to make this compelling to deliver on my differentiation, and then he's using a product video so that the entire thing doesn't have to work fully freeform.
通过将氛围编码和真实编码相结合，所有这些都基于铅笔草图，我们可以回去看看他在纸上所做的草图，以定义我认为需要在那里进行的内容，以使其引人注目，以实现我的差异化，然后他使用产品视频，这样整个事情就不必完全自由地工作。
That's what it can look like when a team is building something that's more AI-centric, when it's a more sophisticated tool, when people are going to be curious about sort of the ins and outs of it.
当一个团队正在构建更加以人工智能为中心的东西时，当它是一个更复杂的工具时，当人们对它的来龙去脉感到好奇时，情况就是这样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Along those lines, where do you find people are leveraging AI most in helping them through these sprints, through either the foundation sprint or the design sprint?
Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，您发现人们在哪些方面最能利用人工智能来帮助他们完成这些冲刺，无论是基础冲刺还是设计冲刺？
Is it mostly just vibe coding prototypes?
它主要只是振动编码原型吗？
John Zeratsky: That's definitely the first and biggest use of AI in sprints so far is in making prototypes that look more realistic faster.
John Zeratsky：到目前为止，人工智能在冲刺中的第一个也是最大的用途无疑是更快地制作看起来更真实的原型。
It's kind of like having an entire prototyping team on standby so that you don't have to just make it yourself and sort of piece things together, but you can have a ton of people ready to jump in, make something look really realistic.
这有点像让整个原型制作团队随时待命，这样你就不必自己制作并将东西拼凑在一起，而是可以让大量的人准备好加入，使某些东西看起来非常逼真。
John Zeratsky: It's also really critical we found that while you're outsourcing that prototyping work, you don't outsource the thinking.
John Zeratsky：我们发现，当你外包原型设计工作时，你并没有外包思维，这一点也非常重要。
You don't kind of skip over the part where you think about, "Well, what is the actual copy on the website?
您不会跳过您思考的部分，“那么，网站上的实际副本是什么？
How do I actually describe what the product is, how it's differentiated?" It's one of the reasons why doing the foundation sprint first and then doing a design sprint can really help you, because it allows you to spend time working on that harder part of what it means to design and build a product.
我如何真正描述产品是什么，它如何与众不同？”这就是为什么先进行基础冲刺然后进行设计冲刺可以真正帮助您的原因之一，因为它可以让您花时间处理设计和构建产品中更困难的部分。
John Zeratsky: Then, once you have a clear view of that, then you can use AI tools to go really fast.
John Zeratsky：那么，一旦你清楚地了解了这一点，你就可以使用人工智能工具来快速前进。
In this example that Jake is showing of Axion Orbital, people get really clever about which parts of this need to be real, which parts of this can be vibe coded, which parts of this can just be a static Figma mockup.
在 Jake 展示的 Axion Orbital 的这个例子中，人们非常清楚其中的哪些部分需要是真实的，哪些部分可以进行 vivi 编码，哪些部分可以只是静态 Figma 模型。
John Zeratsky: It's all about kind of creating a simulation, something that looks realistic, that you can put in front of real customers to help you answer the key questions.
John Zeratsky：这一切都是为了创建一个模拟，看起来很真实，你可以将其放在真实的客户面前来帮助你回答关键问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really good point that you're making.
Lenny Rachitsky：您的观点非常好。
Again, it's just a reminder, you'll move faster if you slow down a little bit at the beginning, that because prototyping is so easy now and just things that look ...
再次强调，这只是一个提醒，如果你一开始放慢一点速度，你就会走得更快，因为原型制作现在非常容易，而且只是看起来......
It's so easy to make something that looks really nice and kind of it's doing what you want, but spending a little time making sure you understand what you're testing and what you want becomes more important.
制作出看起来非常漂亮并且能够满足您的需求的东西非常容易，但是花一点时间确保您了解您正在测试的内容以及您想要的内容变得更加重要。
John Zeratsky: We had a couple of teams in this current group of Character Labs where they jumped to vibe coding prototypes right away at the very beginning.
John Zeratsky：我们目前的角色实验室组中有几个团队，他们从一开始就立即转向氛围编码原型。
John Zeratsky: When you generate something using an LLM, using an AI tool, it looks pretty real.
John Zeratsky：当你使用法学硕士、使用人工智能工具生成一些东西时，它看起来非常真实。
It looks believable.
看起来可信。
I think there's a temptation to say, "Okay, this is good to go.
我认为人们很可能会说：“好吧，现在就开始吧。
It looks close enough that I'm just going to show that to customers."
它看起来足够接近，我只想向客户展示它。”
John Zeratsky: Then what they found was, actually, it was super generic.
约翰·泽拉茨基：然后他们发现，实际上，它非常通用。
It didn't really describe what the product was.
它并没有真正描述产品是什么。
It didn't really describe how it was different because it was generated by a model that is trained on existing products.
它并没有真正描述它有何不同，因为它是由在现有产品上训练的模型生成的。
John Zeratsky: In that second sprint, that was when they really took a step back and said, "Okay, let's think through this and then shift into prototyping mode." It's definitely helping people speed up, but we also think there's an important lesson here that while you're outsourcing prototyping, don't outsource the thinking as well.
John Zeratsky：在第二次冲刺中，他们真正后退了一步，说：“好吧，让我们仔细考虑一下，然后转向原型设计模式。”这肯定会帮助人们加快速度，但我们也认为这里有一个重要的教训，即当您外包原型设计时，不要也外包思维。
Lenny Rachitsky: I see you pulling something up, Jake, that might be ...
Lenny Rachitsky：我看到你在拉东西，杰克，那可能是......
Jake Knapp: Yeah, I think it's kind of interesting to see the sketches that went into 's prototype, the Axion Orbital prototype that we just looked at, because they are super detailed.
Jake Knapp：是的，我认为看到我们刚刚看到的 Axion Orbital 原型的草图很有趣，因为它们非常详细。
Jake Knapp: This is ...
杰克·纳普：这是……
Doing this level of thought where you're pausing, you're being really intentional about what does the customer need to know, what needs to happen for them to find a solution to their problem and within the product, that's a way of doing your prompt engineering.
在暂停时进行这种程度的思考，你会真正有意识地了解客户需要知道什么，他们需要做什么才能找到问题的解决方案，并且在产品中，这是进行即时工程的一种方式。
Jake Knapp: If you end up vibe coding this prototype, but you start off with a very clear plan about this is what the thing needs to look like, rather than going immediately into a conversational mode where you're co-designing with the LLM and going back and forth via chat conversation, this is much likelier to yield an opinionated product that makes sense, that's very clearly defined around the problem that you're trying to solve, the tasks that need to happen to solve that problem, and the right messaging, the right wording.
Jake Knapp：如果你最终对这个原型进行了氛围编码，但你开始有一个非常清晰的计划，这就是事情需要是什么样子，而不是立即进入与法学硕士共同设计并通过聊天对话来回的对话模式，这更有可能产生一个有意义的固执己见的产品，它围绕你试图解决的问题、解决该问题需要发生的任务以及正确的消息传递和正确的措辞进行了非常明确的定义。
It's really crisply aligned with what you know about your customers, what you know about what they care about.
它确实与您对客户的了解以及您对他们关心的内容的了解完全一致。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a good point.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的观点。
Again, just the concept of the primal mark is ringing in my head as you talk about this.
再次，当你谈论这个时，原始标记的概念在我的脑海中响起。
Just as soon as you make that prototype, everything from that point is a response to that first idea, versus have I actually thought through what this should be.
一旦你制作了原型，从那时起的一切都是对第一个想法的回应，而不是我真正思考过这应该是什么。
Lenny Rachitsky: Guys, we did it.
Lenny Rachitsky：伙计们，我们做到了。
This is incredible.
这太不可思议了。
I think this is going to help a lot of people think through and actually save a lot of time.
我认为这将帮助很多人思考并实际上节省大量时间。
Is there anything else that you want to share, leave listeners with?
您还有什么想分享给听众的吗？
Maybe a last nugget or something you want to, I don't know, just double down on to leave folks with before we wrap up.
也许是最后的金块或你想要的东西，我不知道，只是在我们结束之前加倍努力留给大家。
John Zeratsky: Well, one quick thing is that we've shared a lot of examples in this conversation.
约翰·泽拉茨基：嗯，快速的一件事是我们在这次对话中分享了很多例子。
We actually have a template, a Miro template, that folks can use if they want to run their own foundation sprint.
我们实际上有一个模板，一个 Miro 模板，如果人们想要运行自己的基础冲刺，可以使用它。
John Zeratsky: It's the template that we use when we're working with founders, taking them through these sprints.
John Zeratsky：这是我们与创始人合作时使用的模板，引导他们完成这些冲刺。
We do our work in Miro.
我们在米罗工作。
Even if we're in person with them, we're usually working in Miro, or maybe working on paper and then capturing it in Miro because it's just such a great canvas to work on.
即使我们亲自与他们交谈，我们通常也会在 Miro 中工作，或者可能在纸上工作，然后在 Miro 中捕捉它，因为它是一个非常适合工作的画布。
John Zeratsky: We'll make that template available so anybody who's listening or watching can grab that and use it to run their own foundation sprint.
John Zeratsky：我们将提供该模板，以便任何正在收听或观看的人都可以获取该模板并使用它来运行自己的基础冲刺。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
You answered the question I asked that I forgot to come back to.
你回答了我问的问题，我忘了回来。
Can we give people a URL?
我们可以给人们一个网址吗？
Put it in the show notes, but is it at your ...
把它放在演出笔记中，但它在你的...
Yeah, I guess where can folks find it?
是的，我想人们在哪里可以找到它？
Jake Knapp: You should find it at character.vc.
Jake Knapp：您应该在character.vc 上找到它。
You can go there and we'll have a page for you to ...
您可以去那里，我们将为您提供一个页面...
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
So easy.
太容易了。
That is awesome.
那太棒了。
That's awesome that you guys are doing that.
你们这样做真是太棒了。
Obviously you could also read the book.
显然你也可以读这本书。
That goes through a lot of this process, but I think the template is just like a plug and play.
这经历了很多这个过程，但我认为模板就像即插即用一样。
Let's just do this at home.
我们就在家里做这个吧。
Lenny Rachitsky: Obviously, if they want to go deeper, they can work with you guys to have you ...
Lenny Rachitsky：显然，如果他们想更深入，他们可以与你们合作让你们......
It's such a win.
这是一场胜利。
They take money.
他们拿钱。
You give them money and you help them figure out what the heck to build.
你给他们钱，然后帮助他们弄清楚到底要建造什么。
What a deal.
多么划算啊。
That's also character.vc if they want to explore that.
如果他们想探索的话，那也是character.vc。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
Is there anything else, Jake, that you wanted to share before we close up?
杰克，在我们结束之前您还有什么想分享的吗？
Jake Knapp: No, just if you made it this far, hopefully your mind and heart is open to this idea, but we know it's a lot to ask, to clear the calendar and follow these steps.
Jake Knapp：不，如果你做到了这一步，希望你的思想和心灵能够接受这个想法，但我们知道要清除日历并遵循这些步骤有很多要求。
If John and I weren't so convinced that beginnings are essential to getting your best efforts in the hands of people and to achieving the things you want for your customers, we wouldn't be doing this.
如果约翰和我不太相信，开始对于将你的最大努力交到人们手中以及为你的客户实现你想要的东西至关重要，我们就不会这样做。
We wouldn't be going to all the trouble.
我们不会遇到那么多麻烦。
There are simpler things we could be going after.
我们可以追求更简单的事情。
Jake Knapp: The kind of cool thing we've found about working in this way, though, we've focused a lot on finding product market fit and building your business, getting started, getting momentum, getting alignment, all these things that tactically are important, that business-wise are important, but another part of it that's a nice side benefit, that actually maybe is the most important thing of all, is how close it brings you to your customers, to the people who you're building for.
Jake Knapp：不过，我们发现以这种方式工作很酷的事情是，我们非常专注于寻找产品市场契合度和建立您的业务，开始，获得动力，取得一致，所有这些在战术上很重要的事情，在业务方面也很重要，但它的另一部分是一个很好的附带好处，实际上可能是最重要的事情，那就是它让您与您的客户、您的目标客户之间的距离有多近。
Because you're interacting with them, you're focusing on them as you plan and you're interacting with them on a weekly basis when you work in this way, and how close it brings teammates together in a very authentic way.
因为你正在与他们互动，你会按照计划关注他们，并且当你以这种方式工作时，你每周都会与他们互动，以及它以一种非常真实的方式将团队成员聚集在一起的亲密程度。
Jake Knapp: We're working together on the most important things.
Jake Knapp：我们正在共同致力于最重要的事情。
We don't have to navigate the usual social dynamics of conversations where one person has an idea and they're pitching it.
我们不必在通常的社会动态对话中进行导航，即一个人有一个想法，然后他们就会提出它。
We don't have to navigate the constant context switches of the calendar that dominates our days.
我们不必在主宰我们生活的日历中不断切换上下文。
Jake Knapp: We're just working on the most important thing.
Jake Knapp：我们只是在做最重要的事情。
The structure takes care of a lot of the difficulty of the process of what we should do.
该结构解决了我们应该做的事情过程中的很多困难。
We just find people come out of it with renewed motivation, renewed energy, and renewed enthusiasm around the fact that they get to work on what actually matters to them.
我们发现，人们在走出困境后，会带着新的动力、新的活力和新的热情，开始从事对他们来说真正重要的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
It just feels like really fun.
感觉真的很有趣。
Just this part of the process is so fun, and then not having to decide how to approach it, having someone just give you here's a framework to follow.
这个过程的这一部分非常有趣，然后不必决定如何处理它，只需有人给你一个可以遵循的框架。
Jake Knapp: It's like a yoga class, right?
杰克·纳普：这就像瑜伽课，对吧？
It's like, I don't know how to do yoga, but ...
就像，我不知道如何做瑜伽，但是......
Lenny Rachitsky: That'll be the title for this episode.
Lenny Rachitsky：这将是本集的标题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Guys, this was awesome.
Lenny Rachitsky：伙计们，这太棒了。
I'm going to skip the lightning round just because we've gone long.
我要跳过闪电回合只是因为我们已经走了很长一段时间。
Lenny Rachitsky: I guess just where can folks find you online?
Lenny Rachitsky：我想人们可以在网上哪里找到你？
How can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Jake Knapp: You can find me on LinkedIn.
Jake Knapp：您可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。
John find you on LinkedIn, too.
约翰也在 LinkedIn 上找到了你。
Jake Knapp: We'd love for people to apply to Character Labs, or if a founder, apply to Character Labs.
Jake Knapp：我们希望人们能够申请Character Labs，或者如果是创始人，也可以申请Character Labs。
Get in touch with us, character.vc.
请与我们联系，character.vc。
Lenny Rachitsky: There we go.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。
All right, guys, thank you so much for being here and for sharing.
好吧，伙计们，非常感谢你们来到这里并分享。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Lenny Rachitsky: Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 Lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。