Making time for what matters | Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky (Authors of Make Time, Character VC)

Jake Knapp: It's not really about productivity, it's not about time management.

Jake Knapp：这与生产力无关，与时间管理无关。

It's really just about, look, at any given day, we're lucky if we can have one great moment where we have our peak attention and we use it well.

这实际上就是，看，在任何一天，如果我们能够拥有一个伟大的时刻，我们可以集中注意力并且很好地利用它，那么我们就很幸运。

And it's not going to happen every day, but if we have some intention around it, it can happen more often than not.

它不会每天都会发生，但如果我们有一些意图，它可能会经常发生。

The notion with the highlight is imagine it's the end of the day if someone asks you, "What was the highlight of your day," what would you say?

亮点的概念是想象一下，一天结束时，如果有人问你，“你这一天的亮点是什么”，你会说什么？

That's the anchor of everything.

这是一切的锚。

That's the core, that's the foundation.

这就是核心，这就是基础。

Things can sometimes be a mess outside of that, and you still feel really good about your days.

有时候，事情可能会变得一团糟，但你仍然对自己的日子感觉很好。

You still feel really good about the way you're spending your energy.

您仍然对自己消耗精力的方式感觉良好。

Lenny: Today, I've got two guests, Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky.

莱尼：今天有两位客人，杰克·纳普和约翰·泽拉茨基。

Jake and John are authors of two incredible books, Sprint and Make Time.

杰克和约翰是两本令人难以置信的书的作者，《Sprint》和《Make Time》。

With Sprint, they've helped more than 300 teams design new products and bring them to market, including teams at YouTube, Slack, Gusto and One Medical.

通过 Sprint，他们帮助 300 多个团队设计新产品并将其推向市场，其中包括 YouTube、Slack、Gusto 和 One Medical 的团队。

Previously, John and Jake worked at Google Ventures, and before that, at Google, where John was a leader on Google Ads and YouTube.

此前，John 和 Jake 曾在 Google Ventures 工作，在此之前，John 曾在 Google 担任 Google Ads 和 YouTube 的领导者。

And Jake helped build Gmail and co-founded Google Meet.

Jake 帮助构建了 Gmail 并共同创立了 Google Meet。

Today, they run a venture capital firm called Character, and they actually just opened up applications for their accelerator program called Character Labs, which you can learn more about at character.vc/labs.

如今，他们经营着一家名为“Character”的风险投资公司，实际上他们刚刚为其名为“Character Labs”的加速器计划开放了应用程序，您可以在character.vc/labs 上了解更多信息。

Lenny: In our conversation, we focus on their more recent book, Make Time, which a guest of this podcast, Ben Williams, recommended in the lightning round, and I absolutely loved and wanted to make sure more people learned about it and the advice within it, especially product leaders and founders who are constantly looking for ways to be more productive.

莱尼：在我们的谈话中，我们重点关注他们最近的一本书《Make Time》，该播客的嘉宾本·威廉姆斯在闪电轮中推荐了这本书，我非常喜欢并希望确保更多的人了解这本书以及其中的建议，特别是那些不断寻找提高生产力的方法的产品领导者和创始人。

I want to get you right to the meat of the conversation.

我想让你直接进入谈话的重点。

So, let me just say that we get into a ton of very practical pieces of advice for how you can be more productive in your day, and if you listen to this episode, I guarantee you'll find at least three things that you'll want to start doing differently starting tomorrow.

所以，我只想说，我们提供了大量非常实用的建议，告诉你如何提高一天的工作效率，如果你听了这一集，我保证你会发现至少三件事是你从明天开始想要开始做的不同的事情。

With that, I bring you Jake Knapp and John Zeratsky after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了杰克·纳普 (Jake Knapp) 和约翰·泽拉茨基 (John Zeratsky)。

Lenny: Let me tell you about a product called Sidebar.

Lenny：让我告诉你一个叫做 Sidebar 的产品。

The best way to level up your career is to surround yourself with extraordinary peers.

提升职业生涯的最佳方法是让自己周围都是杰出的同行。

This gives you more than a leg up.

这不仅能让您更有优势。

It gives you a leap forward.

它给你一个飞跃。

This worked really well for me in my career and this is the Sidebar ethos.

这对我的职业生涯非常有效，这就是侧边栏精神。

When you have a trusted group of peers, you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

当你有一群值得信赖的同事时，你可以讨论你遇到的挑战，获得职业建议，并直觉地检查你如何看待你的工作、职业和生活。

This was a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group of peers.

这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变，但建立这个值得信赖的同行群体是很困难的。

Sidebar is a private, highly- vetted leadership program, where senior leaders are matched with peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives and raw feedback.

Sidebar 是一项经过严格审查的私人领导力计划，高级领导者与同行群体相匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Lenny: Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, Sidebar enables you to get focused, tactical feedback at every step of your career journey.

Lenny：在世界一流的编程和便利指导下，Sidebar 使您能够在职业生涯的每一步获得集中的战术反馈。

If you're a listener of this podcast, you're already committed to growth.

如果您是此播客的听众，那么您已经致力于成长。

Sidebar is the missing piece to catalyze your career.

侧边栏是促进您职业生涯的缺失部分。

93% of members say Sidebar helped them achieve a significant positive change in their career.

93% 的会员表示 Sidebar 帮助他们在职业生涯中实现了重大的积极变化。

Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today?

今天您就可以在补充工具栏上见到您的朋友，为什么要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？

Join thousands of top senior leaders who have taken the first step to career growth from companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta by visiting sidebar.com/lenny.

访问 sidebar.com/lenny，加入数千位在 Microsoft、Amazon 和 Meta 等公司迈出职业发展第一步的高级领导者行列。

That's sidebar.com/lenny.

这是 sidebar.com/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Whimsical, the iterative product workspace.

Lenny：本集由迭代产品工作区 Whimsical 为您带来。

Whimsical helps product managers build clarity and shared understanding faster with tools designed for solving product challenges.

Whimsical 利用专为解决产品挑战而设计的工具，帮助产品经理更快地建立清晰的思路并达成共识。

With Whimsical, you can easily explore new concepts using drag and drop wireframe and diagram components, create rich product briefs that show and sell your thinking, and keep your team aligned with one source of truth for all of your build requirements.

借助 Whimsical，您可以使用拖放线框和图表组件轻松探索新概念，创建丰富的产品简介来展示和推销您的想法，并使您的团队与满足您所有构建需求的单一事实来源保持一致。

Whimsical also has a library of easy-to-use templates from product leaders, like myself, including a project proposal one-pager and a go-to-market worksheet.

Whimsical 还拥有一个来自产品领导者（例如我自己）的易于使用的模板库，其中包括一个项目提案一页纸和一个上市工作表。

Give them a try and see how fast and easy it is to build clarity with Whimsical.

尝试一下，看看使用 Whimsical 建立清晰度有多快、有多容易。

Sign up at whimsical.com/lenny for 20% off a Whimsical Pro plan.

在 Whimsical.com/lenny 上注册，即可享受 Whimsical Pro 计划 20% 的折扣。

That's whimsical.com/lenny.

那是whimsical.com/lenny。

Lenny: Jake and John, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：杰克和约翰，非常感谢你们来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Jake Knapp: Thanks for having us.

杰克·纳普：感谢您邀请我们。

We're so stoked to be here.

我们很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: I was just re-listening to the audiobook of Make Time to prep for this conversation.

莱尼：我刚刚重新听了《Make Time》的有声读物，为这次谈话做准备。

And I feel like I kind of know you guys from listening to your voice for so long in the car, and it's a little surreal to be talking to you guys.

我觉得我通过在车里听你们的声音这么久而认识你们了，和你们说话有点超现实。

John Zeratsky: That was really fun to record.

John Zeratsky：录制起来真的很有趣。

And while we were doing it, we kept saying to each other, it was like we were recording the world's longest podcast.

当我们这样做时，我们不断地对彼此说，这就像我们正在录制世界上最长的播客。

Lenny: Actually, on that, how long does it take to record audiobook?

莱尼：实际上，录制有声读物需要多长时间？

I've always been curious.

我一直很好奇。

How much time does that-

那要花多少时间-

Jake Knapp: Well, it takes twice as long as it should have because my stomach kept growling and the microphone would pick it up.

杰克·纳普：嗯，这需要两倍的时间，因为我的肚子一直在咕咕叫，麦克风会拾取它。

And so, John would do a perfect take and we're both sitting in the little room together and the engineer was in the other room and he'd be like, "You got to do it again.

所以，约翰会做一个完美的镜头，我们一起坐在小房间里，工程师在另一个房间里，他会说，“你必须再做一次。

You got to do it again.

你必须再做一次。

The guy's stomach keeps growling."

这家伙的肚子一直在咕咕叫。”

John Zeratsky: I think it took two days, right?

约翰·泽拉茨基：我想花了两天时间，对吧？

Jake Knapp: Yeah, I think it was two days.

杰克·纳普：是的，我想那是两天。

Yeah, and I think actually they thought it would take two days, so I don't think my stomach slowed us down too much.

是的，我想实际上他们认为这需要两天的时间，所以我不认为我的胃让我们放慢了太多。

Lenny: That is not as long as I thought.

莱尼：那没有我想象的那么长。

I thought it was a month of recording and such a painful experience.

我以为这是一个月的录音和如此痛苦的经历。

Sounds like not so bad.

听起来好像没那么糟糕。

John Zeratsky: No, honestly, it was really fun.

约翰·泽拉茨基：不，老实说，这真的很有趣。

I mean it's weird, but it's just like, I don't know, you can get into this very intense zone where you're singularly focused, right?

我的意思是这很奇怪，但就像，我不知道，你可以进入这个非常紧张的区域，在那里你会非常专注，对吧？

There's nothing else that you need to do or should do, so it's just like read, drink tea, read, break for lunch, read, drink tea.

没有什么你需要做或应该做的，所以就像阅读，喝茶，阅读，吃午饭，阅读，喝茶一样。

It's just like this really satisfying flow.

就像这样真正令人满意的流程。

Lenny: That sounds like a great few days.

莱尼：听起来这几天过得很愉快。

Jake Knapp: Yeah, I think it was really fun doing it together too.

杰克·纳普：是的，我认为一起做也很有趣。

I think it would've been harder to do...

我想这会更难做到...

I mean obviously people do it and I think they like doing it on their own, but we've been working together for so long, it's always more enjoyable when we get to do something together.

我的意思是显然人们会这样做，而且我认为他们喜欢自己做，但我们已经一起工作了这么长时间，当我们一起做某事时总是会更愉快。

So, that made it cool.

所以，这让它很酷。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I want to do an audiobook now.

我现在想做一本有声读物。

That sounds like a lot of fun.

听起来很有趣。

So, to start diving into our conversation, so you guys wrote this very seminal book called Sprint, which we're going to talk about.

因此，为了开始深入讨论我们的对话，你们写了一本非常具有开创性的书，名为《Sprint》，我们将要讨论它。

But you also wrote this other book that I have right here called Make Time, that to me was even more powerful and I think it might be even more powerful in people's lives than Sprint.

但你还写了我这里的另一本书，叫做《Make Time》，对我来说这本书更强大，我认为它在人们的生活中可能比 Sprint 更强大。

And I think it's one of the most interesting and most fun productivity books out there.

我认为这是最有趣、最有趣的生产力书籍之一。

My wife actually grabbed the book from my desk the past week as I've been prepping for this, and just started highlighting it.

事实上，我的妻子上周从我的桌子上拿起了这本书，因为我一直在为此做准备，并开始强调它。

You could see all these highlights in here.

您可以在这里看到所有这些亮点。

She just goes-

她只是走了——

Lenny: I want to be more productive.

莱尼：我想提高工作效率。

Also, a guest on the podcast introduced me to the book.

另外，播客上的一位嘉宾向我介绍了这本书。

At the end of the podcast, I'll ask you this too, but I ask people, what book do they recommend most to other people?

在播客结束时，我也会问你这个问题，但我会问人们，他们最向其他人推荐什么书？

And he mentioned this book, and so that's how I uncovered it.

他提到了这本书，所以我就是这样发现它的。

So, it all comes full circle.

所以，一切又回到了原点。

Lenny: So, I thought we'd start with Make Time and then get to Sprint in the second half of the conversation.

Lenny：所以，我想我们应该从“腾出时间”开始，然后在谈话的后半部分讨论“Sprint”。

First question is just what do most people get wrong when they're trying to become more productive?

第一个问题是，大多数人在试图提高工作效率时会犯什么错误？

Jake Knapp: To set the answer up, I'll give you a super brief history of Make Time.

Jake Knapp：为了回答这个问题，我将向您简要介绍一下 Make Time 的历史。

And for over a decade, John and I have been, in quotes, designing time as part of our work with startups, helping them find or expand product market fit.

十多年来，约翰和我一直在设计时间作为我们与初创公司合作的一部分，帮助他们找到或扩大产品市场契合度。

So, we developed a design sprint at Google Ventures, which the Sprint book is about.

因此，我们在 Google Ventures 开发了一个设计冲刺，《冲刺》一书就是关于这个设计冲刺的。

And now, we run this venture fund of our own called Character.

现在，我们经营着自己的风险基金，名为“Character”。

And we run these highly-structured sprints with companies.

我们与公司一起进行这些高度结构化的冲刺。

And when we're doing that, we get to control how everything happens.

当我们这样做时，我们就可以控制一切的发生方式。

We get to change the defaults of the way the workday happens, of what happens sort of hour-to-hour, minute-to-minute, how people are using technology, how people are interacting with each other.

我们可以改变工作日的默认方式，改变每小时、每分钟发生的事情、人们如何使用技术、人们如何彼此互动。

All those things are sort of under our control because we're trying to achieve these big goals in a really short period of time.

所有这些事情都在我们的控制之下，因为我们试图在很短的时间内实现这些大目标。

Everybody focused.

大家全神贯注。

Jake Knapp: So, as this stuff was going on, John and I started applying some of the lessons, the things that we found were working really well in those structured sprints.

Jake Knapp：所以，随着这件事的进行，约翰和我开始应用一些经验教训，我们发现这些东西在那些结构化的冲刺中非常有效。

We started experimenting with applying those in our own day-to-day lives, and we found that some of those things were super effective and they were a bit counter to the way we'd sort of heard or learned about productivity.

我们开始尝试将这些方法应用到我们自己的日常生活中，我们发现其中一些方法非常有效，但它们与我们听到或了解的生产力的方式有点相反。

And there's all kinds of habit books and productivity hacks out there.

还有各种各样的习惯书籍和生产力技巧。

And I think John and I have probably tried most of them, if not all of them.

我想约翰和我可能已经尝试了其中的大部分，即使不是全部。

But it seems like 99% of the people who follow those things are still feeling overwhelmed, they're still stressed out all the time anyway.

但似乎 99% 关注这些事情的人仍然感到不知所措，无论如何，他们仍然一直处于压力之下。

Jake Knapp: So, even though we are not productivity gurus, this hasn't been like this thing we were doing forever, it's not our full-time job, but we thought we want to share this framework.

Jake Knapp：所以，尽管我们不是生产力专家，但这并不是我们一直在做的事情，这不是我们的全职工作，但我们认为我们想分享这个框架。

So, Make Time, the book and the blog that proceeded it was just kind this side project to share what we learned.

因此，《Make Time》这本书和随后的博客只是一个业余项目，旨在分享我们所学到的知识。

And yeah, it seems like it is resonated with a bunch of people.

是的，它似乎引起了很多人的共鸣。

There's this kind of steady stream of interest in looking at these things a different way.

人们对以不同方式看待这些事物有着源源不断的兴趣。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

I love that it emerged out of the sprint concept.

我喜欢它是从冲刺概念中产生的。

I know you talked about the book, but I forgot that and these are all very related.

我知道你谈到了这本书，但我忘了，这些都是非常相关的。

I also love that a lot of the best stuff comes from people actually doing the thing.

我也喜欢很多最好的东西来自于实际做这件事的人。

This came from, "I just have discovered all these little things and I'm just going to share it." Not just like, "I need to write a productivity book."

这来自于“我刚刚发现了所有这些小事情，我只是想分享它。”不仅仅是“我需要写一本提高生产力的书”。

John Zeratsky: Yeah, I think, like Jake said, we both had always sort of been dissatisfied with the state of the productivity art, and we had big things we wanted to do.

约翰·泽拉茨基：是的，我认为，就像杰克说的那样，我们一直都对生产力艺术的现状感到不满意，而且我们有想做的大事。

I mean, when you work in any kind of job, I mean we've both spent our early careers as designers and the job is really all about doing big projects.

我的意思是，当你从事任何类型的工作时，我的意思是我们的早期职业生涯都是作为设计师度过的，而这份工作实际上就是做大项目。

It's all about being able to focus, being able to spend time on the things that matter.

这一切都是为了能够集中注意力，能够把时间花在重要的事情上。

And that's to say nothing of what we want outside of work, things that we want to learn how to do personally, people we want to spend time with.

更不用说我们在工作之外想要什么，我们想要学习如何亲自做的事情，我们想要与之共度时光的人。

And it's interesting, we've found that when we talk to people about Make Time, they always know.

有趣的是，我们发现当我们与人们谈论“Make Time”时，他们总是知道。

They always know what they want to make time for.

他们总是知道自己想腾出时间做什么。

The problem is not like what should my goal be or how should I figure out what to do with my life?

问题不在于我的目标应该是什么，或者我应该如何弄清楚我的生活应该做什么？

They usually know, but it's very hard to actually make time for those things.

他们通常都知道，但很难真正腾出时间来做这些事情。

John Zeratsky: And I think the problem is that most productivity advice focuses on getting better and faster about doing the things that are already in front of you.

约翰·泽拉茨基：我认为问题在于，大多数生产力建议都集中在更好更快地完成已经摆在你面前的事情上。

So, the messages that are in your inbox, the meetings that are on your calendar, a lot of focus on efficiency, like crank through that stuff.

因此，收件箱中的消息、日历上的会议都非常注重效率，比如处理这些事情。

Our perspective is basically that those are the defaults.

我们的观点基本上是这些都是默认值。

Just like our software that we use, apps that we use have defaults, those are the defaults of life, of the companies that we work in, the culture that we live in.

就像我们使用的软件一样，我们使用的应用程序也有默认设置，这些是生活的默认设置、我们工作的公司的默认设置、我们生活的文化的默认设置。

And so, the solution is actually to change those defaults and to really flip this way of thinking on its head.

因此，解决方案实际上是改变这些默认设置，并彻底颠覆这种思维方式。

So, it's not about how do I go faster?

所以，这不是我如何走得更快的问题？

How do I get more efficient?

我怎样才能变得更有效率？

It's about how do I put the thing that is the most important first in my day or in my life, and then build everything else around that and accept that you're going to need to do a bunch of those little things.

这是关于我如何把一天或一生中最重要的事情放在第一位，然后围绕它构建其他一切，并接受你需要做一堆这些小事情。

You're going to need to answer those messages and go to those meetings, but really, start with the idea of what's most important to you?

您需要回复这些消息并参加这些会议，但实际上，首先要考虑什么对您来说最重要？

What do you actually want to make time for?

你到底想腾出时间做什么？

Lenny: Along these same lines, we're going to talk about this kind of four-part strategy that you recommend, but a couple of things before we get into there.

莱尼：沿着同样的思路，我们将讨论您推荐的这种由四部分组成的策略，但在我们进入该策略之前有几件事。

One is along the lines you just talked about is this insight that you had of just like willpower is never going to be enough to get you to make time for the things you want to do.

其一，正如你刚才谈到的那样，你的这种洞察力就像意志力永远不足以让你腾出时间去做你想做的事情。

And you had these two concepts of busy bandwagon and infinity pools, so maybe just talk about those two briefly.

您有繁忙的潮流和无边泳池这两个概念，所以也许只是简单地谈谈这两个概念。

Jake Knapp: The idea of the busy bandwagon is just this expectation that everybody's busy.

杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：繁忙潮流的想法就是希望每个人都很忙。

And in the United States, there's kind of this thing that I think if you travel abroad and talk to people for a while, then you come back, you'll notice, which is like if you ask someone, "Hey, how's it going?

在美国，我认为如果你出国旅行并与人交谈一段时间，然后你回来，你会注意到，就像你问某人，“嘿，怎么样？

What are you up to?" And they'll be like, "Oh man, I'm busy." It's kind of the default answer.

你在忙什么？”他们会说，“天啊，我很忙。”这是默认答案。

"I'm busy.

“我很忙。

Things are busy." And it means, usually, it could mean a variety of things, but usually it's good.

事情很忙。”通常，它可能意味着各种各样的事情，但通常都是好的。

Like, "Oh, it's busy, so business is booming," or, "It's busy, I'm overwhelmed," or whatever.

就像，“哦，很忙，所以生意兴隆”，或者，“很忙，我不知所措”，或者其他什么。

But busy, it's kind of the expectations that everybody's busy.

但忙碌，是每个人都忙碌的期望。

And we are, I mean we are busy, but we call it the busy bandwagon because it feels like you should be busy.

我们是，我的意思是我们很忙，但我们称之为忙碌潮流，因为感觉你应该很忙。

And it's this inner feeling caused by what we see or perceive other people are doing that drives a lot of the stress.

正是我们看到或感知到其他人正在做的事情所引起的内心感觉带来了很大的压力。

And I don't mean to sound like I'm above it all and have figured it all out.

我的意思并不是说我凌驾于一切之上并且已经解决了一切。

It still drives my stress, this inner feeling that other people haven't figured out, other people are expecting fast reactions from me, all this.

它仍然给我带来压力，这种其他人还没有弄清楚的内心感觉，其他人期待我的快速反应，所有这一切。

That's the busy bandwagon, this sort of feeling that I should be busy, that everyone else is busy.

这就是忙碌的潮流，这种感觉我应该很忙，其他人也很忙。

And what that does inside of us is really the core of what we have to change and figure out, this getting out of a reaction mode.

这在我们内心所做的确实是我们必须改变和弄清楚的核心，这就是摆脱反应模式。

The other thing that happens to us are the infinity pools.

我们遇到的另一件事是无边泳池。

And John, do you want to describe what infinity pools are in our context?

约翰，你想描述一下我们这里的无边泳池是什么吗？

John Zeratsky: Yeah, we came up with this name because we were trying to think of endlessly replenishing fount of content.

约翰·泽拉茨基：是的，我们想出了这个名字，因为我们试图无限地补充内容源泉。

So, basically if you can pull to refresh or if it streams, it's an infinity pool.

所以，基本上，如果你可以拉动刷新或者如果它流式传输，那么它就是一个无边泳池。

So, this is pure entertainment stuff.

所以，这纯粹是娱乐内容。

This is stuff that people say like, "Oh, I spend so much time on Instagram," but it's also stuff that's important and necessary and productive.

人们会说，“哦，我在 Instagram 上花了很多时间”，但它也是重要、必要和富有成效的东西。

Email is a huge infinity pool and it's probably the single hardest thing for the two of us to control and avoid getting sucked into.

电子邮件是一个巨大的无边泳池，它可能是我们两个人最难控制和避免被卷入的事情。

And anybody listening to this is going to, I think, understand how powerful those pools are and how effectively designed and engineered those products are to be really compelling and to be friction-free and to just make it easy for us to dive back into that pool.

我认为，任何听到这个消息的人都会了解这些池有多么强大，以及如何有效地设计和制造这些产品，使其真正引人注目、无摩擦，并使我们能够轻松地重新投入该池。

John Zeratsky: And so, when you put these two things together, the busy bandwagon and the infinity pool, you kind of have this, it's like a flywheel, but bad.

约翰·泽拉茨基：所以，当你把这两件事放在一起时，繁忙的潮流和无边泳池，你就拥有了这个，它就像一个飞轮，但很糟糕。

You feel like you really need to be busy, you really need to be on top of everything.

你觉得你真的需要忙碌，你真的需要掌控一切。

And then, you've got this whole collection of apps and services and products there that are ready to pounce on that, they're ready to take advantage of that set of defaults, that cultural and internal set of defaults that you have about what you should be doing.

然后，你就拥有了整个应用程序、服务和产品的集合，它们已经准备好抓住这一点，它们已经准备好利用那组默认值，即你对应该做什么的文化和内部默认值集。

And for a lot of people, it just sort of spins out of control.

对于很多人来说，它只是有点失控。

So, our view is if you can name those two things, if you can understand those two things, then you can start to deliberately change some of the defaults around them, so that you can put your most important projects, people, work first, like we talked about.

所以，我们的观点是，如果你能说出这两件事，如果你能理解这两件事，那么你就可以开始刻意改变它们周围的一些默认设置，这样你就可以把你最重要的项目、人员和工作放在第一位，就像我们谈到的那样。

Lenny: I'm guilty of both these things.

莱尼：我对这两件事都感到内疚。

I feel like the reason I do some of these chats, this one in particular is it's like one-on-one coaching almost.

我觉得我之所以进行一些聊天，尤其是这次聊天，是因为它几乎就像一对一的辅导。

This is going to help me stick to some of the things you teach.

这将帮助我坚持你教的一些东西。

And I've already actually implemented a number of the things you recommend, but this is reinforcing it.

我实际上已经实施了您推荐的一些事情，但这正在加强它。

And then, obviously, also helping all the listeners get better at these things.

然后，显然，也帮助所有听众在这些事情上做得更好。

Before we get into it, one last question is just like real talk, how how's your guys' productivity?

在我们开始讨论之前，最后一个问题就像真实的谈话一样，你们的工作效率如何？

You wrote this book, it sounds amazing.

你写了这本书，听起来很棒。

There's 87 I think pieces of advice.

我认为有 87 条建议。

How is it going for you guys?

你们怎么样？

As we go through, I want to hear what you're actually using, but just broadly, how's your productivity?

在我们讨论过程中，我想听听您实际使用的是什么，但总的来说，您的工作效率如何？

Jake Knapp: At the top of the interview, Lenny, you asked, "What do most people get wrong when they think about this productivity, time management, whatever?" And I'll frame my answer in those terms.

杰克·纳普：在采访的开头，莱尼，你问：“大多数人在考虑生产力、时间管理等问题时会犯什么错误？”我将用这些术语来阐述我的答案。

So, most people, I think they try to get better and faster at doing what's right in front of them.

所以，我认为大多数人都试图更好更快地完成眼前的事情。

We don't change the defaults in our environment, so we can focus and spend time on these different more important things.

我们不会更改环境中的默认设置，因此我们可以专注并花时间在这些不同的更重要的事情上。

And if you think of that sort of what do I want to do?

如果你也这么想的话我想做什么？

What's my goal?

我的目标是什么？

What do I want to spend time on that John referred to as project A, generally the things we want to do, these project A things, they're big, they're not easy to start, they're slow to create, dopamine hits, they're non-urgent.

我想在约翰所说的项目 A 上花时间做什么，通常是我们想做的事情，这些项目 A 的事情，它们很大，它们不容易启动，它们创建缓慢，多巴胺命中，它们不紧急。

Like boss is not asking for them if you have a boss.

如果你有老板，老板就不会要求他们。

And generally, the tasks and activities that stand in our way that keep us from doing project A, they're small, they're medium size, it's obvious how to start them, they create dopamine right away, they're supposedly urgent, email meetings, TikTok, Instagram, news, what's on your OKRs, all these things.

一般来说，阻碍我们完成项目 A 的任务和活动，它们很小，中等规模，很明显如何开始它们，它们立即产生多巴胺，它们被认为是紧急的，电子邮件会议，TikTok，Instagram，新闻，你的 OKR 上有什么，所有这些东西。

Jake Knapp: And I know what's on your OKRs may not sound like it's a peer of those others, but in a way it really can be.

Jake Knapp：我知道你的 OKR 上的内容可能听起来不像其他人的同等水平，但在某种程度上它确实可以。

So, these big things, they're at odds with these little things that get in the way that the busy bandwagon expects us to do, these things that have infinity pools built in.

因此，这些大事情与这些小事情是不一致的，这些小事情妨碍了繁忙的潮流期望我们做的事情，这些事情内置了无边际泳池。

And so for me, right now, it's a constant battle between the Jake and the busy bandwagon and my inner feeling of how can I live up to people's expectations of me and respond in the way that I should and react in the way that I should?

所以对我来说，现在，这是杰克和忙碌的潮流之间的一场持续不断的战斗，我内心的感觉是我怎样才能不辜负人们对我的期望，并以我应该的方式做出反应，以我应该的方式做出反应？

And then, how can I do the project A stuff, the big important stuff?

然后，我该如何做项目 A 的事情，重要的事情？

A lot has changed in my life since we wrote the book.

自从我们写这本书以来，我的生活发生了很多变化。

Jake Knapp: The summary is every few months I need a few new experiments.

Jake Knapp：总结是每隔几个月我就需要一些新的实验。

I have found in what has been some trying times that the tactics and the framework that we use...

我发现在一些艰难的时期，我们使用的策略和框架......

Because it's kind of simple and it sort of fits with these experiences that I've had for many years doing sprints, that it works.

因为它很简单，而且有点符合我多年来进行冲刺的经验，所以它很有效。

And that if I can go back to that, that if I can create space for it, if I can think about this as it's a series of experiments, if I can look at myself with curiosity and say, "Why are things not working out?" And then try to experiment my way out of it that I'm able to.

如果我可以回到过去，如果我可以为其创造空间，如果我可以将其视为一系列实验，如果我可以好奇地审视自己并说：“为什么事情没有进展？”然后尝试尝试我能做到的摆脱困境的方法。

But yeah, so at any given point in time, I probably give myself a B to B-, and sometimes it's a C and sometimes it's a D, and sometimes it's an A, and I'm really plugging away, but it's totally an ongoing challenge.

但是，是的，所以在任何给定的时间点，我可能给自己一个 B 到 B-，有时是 C，有时是 D，有时是 A，我真的很努力，但这完全是一个持续的挑战。

Jake Knapp: So, I'm not going to sit here and say, yeah, just follow me with a drone for 48 hours and you'll think that's exactly how you should do things.

Jake Knapp：所以，我不会坐在这里说，是的，只要用无人机跟随我 48 小时，你就会认为这正是你应该做的事情。

But part of our philosophy, I think that part of the way I look at it is it can be a mess.

但作为我们哲学的一部分，我认为我看待它的部分方式是它可能会变得一团糟。

And yet, if you can create the space for those project A moments, for your highlights, that can shape everything else, if you just have those moments.

然而，如果你能为这些项目的 A 时刻、你的亮点创造空间，那么如果你拥有这些时刻，那么它可以塑造其他一切。

Things can sometimes be a mess outside of that and you still feel really good about your days, you still feel really good about the way you're spending your energy.

有时候，事情可能会变得一团糟，但你仍然对自己的日子感觉非常好，你仍然对自己花费精力的方式感觉非常好。

John Zeratsky: And having a framework for it gives you a path back.

John Zeratsky：拥有一个框架可以为你提供一条回头路。

If you're just stuck and you're looking...

如果你只是被困住了并且你正在寻找......

You're sort of grasping for hacks.

你有点在抓黑客。

You're sort of like, "Oh, I read this blog post about this thing, I'll try it." That might have some short-term effect, but ultimately, you're probably not going to stick to it.

你有点像，“哦，我读了这篇关于这件事的博客文章，我会尝试一下。”这可能会产生一些短期影响，但最终你可能不会坚持下去。

You're probably going to fall back into that place of overwhelm and disappointment and burnout.

你可能会再次陷入那种不知所措、失望和倦怠的境地。

But we find that if you have a system, that you can use the system and you can return to it and continue to build on and experiment, that you can make more sustainable progress on these things.

但我们发现，如果你有一个系统，你可以使用这个系统，你可以返回它并继续构建和实验，你可以在这些事情上取得更可持续的进展。

Lenny: I think a really important takeaway from these two stories you guys just shared is you don't have to do all of these things.

莱尼：我认为从你们刚刚分享的这两个故事中得到的一个非常重要的收获是，你不必做所有这些事情。

You don't even have to do most of them.

你甚至不必做其中的大部分。

If you just do one or two, if you find one or two things that can make you a little bit more productive every day, that makes a huge dent.

如果你只做一两件事，如果你发现一两件事可以让你每天更有效率一点，那就会产生巨大的影响。

And so, I think it's okay to feel like, "Oh, I tried this stuff.

所以，我认为这样的感觉是可以的，“哦，我尝试过这个东西。

It didn't work." I think as long as you take a couple of things away today that might be useful to you, and then just try them again in the future.

没用。”我想只要你今天拿走一些可能对你有用的东西，然后在将来再尝试一下。

If they end up not working out.

如果他们最终没有锻炼出来。

Like you delete an app and then you reinstall it, I think that's okay.

就像你删除一个应用程序然后重新安装它一样，我认为这没关系。

So, I think that's an important takeaway from this is don't feel like you're failing if you're not doing all of the things that we're talking about today.

所以，我认为这是一个重要的收获，如果你没有做我们今天讨论的所有事情，不要觉得自己失败了。

Lenny: But let's get into it.

莱尼：但是让我们开始吧。

There's this kind of four-part framework for how to help yourself be more productive.

有这样一个由四部分组成的框架，可以帮助您提高工作效率。

Basically, if you could just give an overview and then we'll just talk about each of these steps one by one.

基本上，如果您能给出一个概述，那么我们将一一讨论每个步骤。

So, the four parts are create a highlight, laser, energize, and reflect.

因此，这四个部分是创建高光、激光、激励和反射。

So, I'll turn it over to you guys just broadly, and then let's go through each of these one by one.

因此，我将大致将其交给你们，然后让我们一一讨论。

Jake Knapp: It all starts with this notion of a highlight.

Jake Knapp：这一切都始于亮点的概念。

And highlight is, I hate to say this, it's the most powerful best part, I think of the whole process.

重点是，我不想这么说，这是我认为整个过程中最强大的最好的部分。

And I hate to say that because John came up with it.

我不想这么说，因为这是约翰想出来的。

It wasn't even me.

甚至不是我。

But I have to admit, it's really good.

但我不得不承认，这确实很好。

And I think as folks have read the book and shared it, that's the thing we hear back from people.

我认为，当人们阅读并分享这本书时，这就是我们从人们那里听到的反馈。

If you could just do one thing from this book and try this out, it's a big deal.

如果你能做这本书中的一件事并尝试一下，那就很了不起。

Jake Knapp: The notion what the highlight is, start your day out and you imagine it's the end of the day, you're looking back on the day.

Jake Knapp：重点是什么的概念，开始你的一天，你想象这是一天的结束，你正在回顾这一天。

If someone asked you, "What was the highlight of your day," what would you say?

如果有人问你“今天最精彩的事情是什么”，你会怎么说？

What do you want to say at the end of today was the highlight of today?

今天结束时你想说的今天的亮点是什么？

And you start there, just like, "Okay, what would I like to say the highlight of the day was?" And you might think about what's urgent.

你从那里开始，就像，“好吧，我想说今天的亮点是什么？”你可能会考虑什么是紧急的。

Sometimes the highlight is this thing that really has to happen today.

有时候，最重要的是今天确实必须发生的事情。

Today is the day there's a big meeting, or there's this thing I absolutely have to get done for work for tomorrow.

今天是有一个大型会议的日子，或者是我明天必须完成的工作。

That could be your highlight and getting that done well, having good attention to that will be very satisfying.

这可能是你的亮点，把它做好，充分关注它将会非常令人满意。

Jake Knapp: But a lot of times the highlight comes from joy or satisfaction, projects that wouldn't otherwise get attention.

杰克·纳普：但很多时候，亮点来自于快乐或满足感，否则这些项目不会引起关注。

And it also doesn't have to just be something at work.

而且它也不一定只是工作中的事情。

It could be people in your life that you want to spend time with, a hobby that you want to spend time on.

它可能是你生活中你想与之共度时光的人，你想花时间在一个爱好上。

If you want to get better at Mario Kart, having a good session at Mario Kart, whatever might be the highlight of your day.

如果您想在《马里奥赛车》中取得更好的成绩，请在《马里奥赛车》中享受愉快的时光，无论您一天中的亮点是什么。

The notion is just in the morning to think, "What is it and what is that highlight going to be?" And then, try to find a block that's 60 to 90 minutes.

这个想法只是在早上思考，“这是什么以及那个亮点是什么？”然后，尝试找到一个 60 到 90 分钟的时间段。

That's just usually the rough time we think it takes to really get in the zone on something, do a really excellent job, be totally focused on it.

这通常是我们认为真正进入某件事、做得非常出色、全神贯注所需要的艰难时期。

So, that highlight, that's the anchor of everything.

所以，这个亮点是一切的基础。

That's the core, that's the foundation.

这就是核心，这就是基础。

And you start that way, you're now trying to shape your time around that highlight, and making sure that you have your peak energy, your peak attention when the time for that highlight comes around.

你就这样开始，你现在正试图围绕那个亮点来安排你的时间，并确保当那个亮点到来时你拥有最高的能量和最高的注意力。

Jake Knapp: So, laser is about the tactics you might need to actually focus on that thing.

Jake Knapp：所以，激光是关于你可能需要真正专注于那件事的策略。

In highlight, we have a set of tactics for how to create and think about and frame that highlight.

在亮点中，我们有一套关于如何创建、思考和构建亮点的策略。

Laser, we have a set of tactics for how do you pay attention when that time comes?

激光，我们有一套战术，到时候你要怎么注意？

Then for energize, it's about having the right amount of energy to do the thing, to pay attention.

那么对于能量来说，就是要有适当的能量去做事情，集中注意力。

My highlight for today is trying to be coherent in this podcast, so this morning I need to think about what's the best way for me to have peak energy when a podcast starts.

我今天的重点是努力在这个播客中保持连贯性，所以今天早上我需要考虑什么是让我在播客开始时保持巅峰能量的最佳方式。

Lenny: That's my highlight too, actually.

莱尼：实际上，这也是我的亮点。

I have .

我有 。

Lenny: Record a great podcast episode.

Lenny：录制精彩的播客节目。

Jake Knapp: Excellent, excellent.

杰克·纳普：非常好，非常好。

Okay.

好的。

Yeah.

是的。

And if you're not watching on video, Lenny had a sticky note and he wrote it down.

如果你不看视频，莱尼有一张便利贴，他把它写了下来。

So, that's actually literally the best way to do this is write it down on a sticky note, put it somewhere where you can see it.

所以，实际上最好的方法就是把它写在便利贴上，放在你能看到的地方。

And so, you've got highlight, laser during the time of the highlight, energize, make sure you have the energy you need when the time comes.

所以，你有高光，高光期间的激光，能量，确保你在时间到来时拥有所需的能量。

And these are just tactics around sleep and food and exercise, and just things that help with your mental energy, not crazy stuff.

这些只是关于睡眠、食物和锻炼的策略，只是帮助你精神能量的东西，而不是疯狂的东西。

And then the final thing is reflect, and this is where we think about this as the scientific method.

最后就是反思，这就是我们将其视为科学方法的地方。

Did it work?

有效吗？

Did what I tried today work out?

我今天尝试的方法有效吗？

And if not, just being curious about it, what didn't?

如果没有，只是好奇，还有什么没有呢？

And adjusting and trying to think, "Okay, maybe there's another tactic I can try."

然后调整并尝试思考：“好吧，也许我可以尝试另一种策略。”

Jake Knapp: So, the book is like...

杰克·纳普：所以，这本书就像......

What are there like 87 tactics in the book?

书里有什么87战术之类的？

There's a lot of different approaches, but the expectation is not you're going to use all of them.

有很多不同的方法，但期望您不会使用所有这些方法。

And the expectation is not that-

而期望并不是这样的——

Jake Knapp: ...

杰克·纳普：……

expectation is not you're going to use all of them.

期望不是你会使用所有这些。

And the expectation is not that all of them will work for each person.

我们并不期望所有这些方法都适合每个人。

I use different tactics than John does, and some of his don't work for me, and vice versa.

我使用的策略与约翰不同，他的一些策略对我不起作用，反之亦然。

But that idea of centering on a thing, focusing on it, having tactics for that, having tactics for energy, and then having some tactics to reflect and reframe and be curious.

但这种想法是以一件事为中心，专注于它，为此制定策略，为能量制定策略，然后制定一些策略来反思、重构和好奇。

That taken together, we find, just can reframe the way it feels.

我们发现，综合起来，就可以重新构建它的感觉。

It's not really about productivity.

这实际上与生产力无关。

It's not about time management.

这与时间管理无关。

It's really just about, look, in any given day, we're lucky if we can have one great moment where we have our peak attention, and we use it well.

这实际上就是，看，在任何一天，如果我们能够拥有一个我们能集中注意力的伟大时刻，并且我们能够很好地利用它，我们就很幸运了。

And it's not going to happen every day, but if we have some intention around it, it can happen more often than not.

它不会每天都会发生，但如果我们有一些意图，它可能会经常发生。

Lenny: I think that last point is so important and why the highlight works so well for me is usually there's...

莱尼：我认为最后一点非常重要，为什么这个亮点对我来说如此有效，通常是......

You don't get anything amazingly done in a day, often.

通常，你不会在一天内完成任何令人惊奇的事情。

And usually, you're just distracted by all these things, and you're doing all the easy stuff.

通常，你只是被所有这些事情分散了注意力，并且你正在做所有简单的事情。

You talked about this idea of Project A, like here's the thing I really want to get done, but the dopamine hit us so far in the future, and it's so hard.

你谈到了项目 A 的想法，就像这是我真正想要完成的事情，但多巴胺在未来会袭击我们，这太难了。

And so, the reason I think the highlight is so powerful is, you get one thing done you're proud of, that is a great day.

所以，我认为亮点如此强大的原因是，你完成了一件让你感到自豪的事情，那就是美好的一天。

And it may sound crazy that that's true, but it's so true.

这可能听起来很疯狂，但这确实是事实。

Lenny: So, I want to talk more in depth about each of these four things, and maybe spend the most time on the highlight and the laser because I think that's where most of the impact comes from.

莱尼：所以，我想更深入地讨论这四件事中的每一件事，也许花最多的时间在高光和激光上，因为我认为这是大部分影响的来源。

Lenny: So, with the highlight, do you have any advice?

莱尼：那么，说到重点，您有什么建议吗？

You shared a couple examples of how to come up with like, "Here's the thing to pick for the day." There's a few questions that you recommend, and I think you shared a couple of them.

您分享了几个示例，说明如何提出“这是今天要选择的东西”之类的内容。您提出了几个问题，我认为您分享了其中几个问题。

And then, are there any examples of highlights from your guys', I don't know, past couple of weeks that would be good for people to hear an example?

然后，我不知道你们过去几周的亮点有没有什么例子可以让人们听到一个例子？

And then, also, there's this calendar component, which maybe fits into the laser, but I guess that feels like a really important element of this.

然后，还有这个日历组件，它可能适合激光，但我想这感觉像是一个非常重要的元素。

So, if you just talk about that?

那么，如果你只是谈论这个？

John Zeratsky: For me, and again, this is where the framework is intentionally flexible, different people have different highlights.

John Zeratsky：对我来说，这就是框架故意灵活的地方，不同的人有不同的亮点。

But for me, I am very project oriented.

但对我来说，我非常注重项目。

I'm very work oriented.

我非常注重工作。

And for me, most days, a really good day comes from having made progress on something that is really important to me.

对我来说，大多数时候，真正美好的一天来自于在对我来说真正重要的事情上取得了进展。

So, my highlights are usually focused work, creative work related.

所以，我的亮点通常是专注的工作，与创造性的工作相关。

And this has become even more important since we started our own VC firm three years ago.

自从三年前我们创办了自己的风险投资公司以来，这一点变得更加重要。

And before that, I was sort of, I guess, more or less a writer, full-time writing, and speaking at events, and doing some consulting.

在那之前，我想，我或多或少是一名作家，全职写作，在活动中发言，并做一些咨询。

And before that, I was a partner at Google Ventures, at GV, and before that I was a product designer.

在此之前，我是 Google Ventures 和 GV 的合伙人，在此之前我是一名产品设计师。

So, I've been through different modes and contexts in my career.

所以，我在职业生涯中经历了不同的模式和背景。

But if you know any VCs, if you're listening to this and you know any VCs, they're probably the busiest, most frazzled people that you know who are constantly on email, constantly in Zoom calls and meetings, and on airplanes all the time.

但如果你认识任何风险投资家，如果你正在听这个并且你认识任何风险投资家，他们可能是你认识的最忙碌、最疲惫的人，他们不断地写电子邮件，不断地参加 Zoom 电话和会议，并且一直在飞机上。

John Zeratsky: And so, the natural environment of that work is the busy bandwagon, and it's to have a lot of infinity pools that you need to care about.

约翰·泽拉茨基：所以，这项工作的自然环境是繁忙的潮流，它有很多你需要关心的无边泳池。

And so, in that context, in order for us to make progress on projects, in order for us to move the ball on a launch related to this program, Character Labs, that we run with pre-seed founders that's coming up, or we're writing a new book, and that's a big project, or working with one of our portfolio companies and running a sprint with them, or writing a newsletter that goes out to our LPs, those things are all really important, and I feel like they give us a unique edge as a VC firm.

因此，在这种情况下，为了让我们在项目上取得进展，为了让我们在与这个项目相关的启动上取得进展，角色实验室，我们与即将到来的种子前创始人一起运行，或者我们正在写一本新书，这是一个大项目，或者与我们的投资组合公司之一合作并与他们一起进行冲刺，或者写一份发给我们的有限合伙人的时事通讯，这些事情都非常重要，我觉得它们给了我们一个作为风险投资公司的独特优势。

John Zeratsky: If we accept the premise I said before, that most VCs are just sort of frantically running around, if we can take these bigger swings at things, then theoretically, they should really help us be successful.

约翰·泽拉茨基：如果我们接受我之前说过的前提，即大多数风投只是疯狂地四处奔波，如果我们能够在事情上做出更大的转变，那么从理论上讲，他们应该真正帮助我们取得成功。

So, most of the time, it's all a very long way of saying that most of the time my highlights are like, "What do I want to accomplish at work?

所以，大多数时候，这是一种很长的说法，大多数时候我的亮点都是这样的，“我想在工作中完成什么？

What is the thing that I want to get done today?"

我今天想要完成的事情是什么？”

John Zeratsky: And so, what I do then is, I structure my calendar around making time for that.

约翰·泽拉茨基：所以，我接下来要做的就是，围绕为此腾出时间来构建我的日历。

There's a tactic in the book called Design Your Day that is really about kind of drawing out your day, and using your calendar as a canvas where you can design how you want to spend your time rather than using your calendar as a thing that is done to you, a thing that tells you what you have to do.

书中有一个策略叫做“设计你的一天”，它实际上是绘制你的一天，并使用你的日历作为画布，你可以设计你想要如何度过你的时间，而不是使用你的日历作为一个对你做的事情，一个告诉你必须做什么的事情。

Reclaim control over that.

收回对此的控制权。

John Zeratsky: And so, most days, the first half of the day before lunch is my focus time, and I protect that very, very intensely, and then use that time to work on whatever my highlight is.

约翰·泽拉茨基：所以，大多数时候，午餐前的前半天是我的专注时间，我非常非常强烈地保护它，然后利用这段时间来处理我的亮点。

Lenny: We had a previous guest on, Neer Eyal, also talking about productivity, and he had actually the same advice of just using your calendar as your to-do list, basically, because that's where time's going to go, what your calendar's telling you to do.

Lenny：我们之前的一位嘉宾 Neer Eyal 也谈到了生产力，他实际上也提出了同样的建议，即使用日历作为待办事项列表，基本上，因为这就是时间的去向，日历告诉你要做的事情。

So, I think there's a pattern here that I think people need to pay attention to.

所以，我认为这里存在一种模式，我认为人们需要注意。

John Zeratsky: Yeah, definitely.

约翰·泽拉茨基：是的，当然。

Yeah, and I mean, we take it even further, and we have sort of a calendar template that we use as a team.

是的，我的意思是，我们更进一步，我们有一个团队使用的日历模板。

So, we have certain times of the week.

所以，我们一周有特定的时间。

And it's not exactly the same for all of us on the team, but there are certain times of the week where it's like, yeah, this is when we do these kinds of things.

对于我们团队中的所有人来说，情况并不完全相同，但一周中的某些时候，我们会觉得，是的，这就是我们做这些事情的时候。

This is when we have these kinds of meetings.

这就是我们举行此类会议的时候。

John Zeratsky: And not to say that those are all standing meetings, although we have some of those as well, but these are kind of the content buckets in the template that we can fill with a specific type of activity, but then other parts of the template are sort of reserved for focus work, reserved for individual, solo time to work on things that we need to get done.

约翰·泽拉茨基：并不是说这些都是常设会议，尽管我们也有一些这样的会议，但这些是模板中的内容桶，我们可以用特定类型的活动来填充，但模板的其他部分有点保留用于重点工作，保留给个人单独的时间来处理我们需要完成的事情。

John Zeratsky: So, yeah.

约翰·泽拉茨基：所以，是的。

I think the calendar is, at an individual level and especially at a team level, is this really powerful tool that most people just kind of...

我认为日历，在个人层面，尤其是在团队层面，是一个非常强大的工具，大多数人只是......

Not only do they not use it as a tool, they just sort of hate it.

他们不仅不将其用作工具，而且还有点讨厌它。

They're sort of like, "Ugh, my calendar, it's a mess.

他们有点像，“呃，我的日历，一团糟。

If I could live without a calendar, that would be the dream." But I think if you can use some of these tactics or use other approaches to reclaim it, and use it proactively as a tool for yourself, it can really help you structure your time around the things that you care about.

如果我能在没有日历的情况下生活，那就是我的梦想。”但我认为，如果你可以使用其中一些策略或使用其他方法来重新利用它，并主动将其用作自己的工具，那么它确实可以帮助你围绕自己关心的事情安排时间。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

The way I've been starting to use my calendar is this way, exactly, is I try to prepare for work on next week's newsletter post for like an hour and a half, then prep for the podcast coming up in a few weeks.

我开始使用日历的方式正是这样，我尝试为下周的时事通讯帖子做准备大约一个半小时，然后为几周后的播客做准备。

So, it's very specific and broken up.

所以，它是非常具体和分解的。

Lenny: Along those lines, I often don't do these things as I planned.

莱尼：沿着这些思路，我经常不按计划做这些事情。

And one of your principles, something around Groundhog Day, it's okay to repeat it if you didn't do it.

你的原则之一，关于土拨鼠之日的事情，如果你没有做到，可以重复它。

If you highlight you didn't do, just repeat it again and again until you do it.

如果你强调你没有做到，就一次又一次地重复，直到你做到为止。

Right?

正确的？

Jake Knapp: I think that what's so cool about this notion of Groundhog Day.

杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：我认为土拨鼠日这个概念有多酷。

And if you've seen the movie...

如果你看过这部电影...

Well, if you haven't seen the movie, see the movie.

好吧，如果你还没看过这部电影，那就去看电影吧。

What a great movie.

多么棒的电影啊。

Jake Knapp: If you've seen the movie, you know it's like, not to give it away, but he gets better and better at doing the day, and that's kind of this core philosophy that we take on.

杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：如果你看过这部电影，你就会知道这就像，不要放弃它，但他在这一天的表现越来越好，这就是我们所秉承的核心理念。

Jake Knapp: I think a lot of the time, when in the past I have thought about, "How can I be effective with my time?

杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：我很多时候都在想，过去我会想，“我怎样才能有效地利用我的时间？

How can I be productive?" It's beating myself up.

我怎样才能高效工作？”这是在打击我自己。

It's not a good feeling to be in that head space of like, "I'm screwing up.

脑子里总有这样的感觉：“我搞砸了。

What can I fix?"

我能解决什么问题？”

Jake Knapp: And this notion that it's like, you're going to have another chance, you're going to have another chance.

杰克·纳普：这个想法就像是，你将有另一次机会，你将有另一次机会。

"It's okay, just try again, just be curious about what happened," is a big deal.

“没关系，再试一次，只是好奇发生了什么，”是件大事。

And starting with the calendar, using the calendar as a framework for saying, "Hey, here's what actually happened.

从日历开始，使用日历作为框架说：“嘿，这就是实际发生的事情。

Here's what I think is going to happen." That's what you're saying when you do this Design your Day tactic.

这就是我认为将会发生的事情。”这就是您在执行“设计您的一天”策略时所说的内容。

Jake Knapp: And I did this exercise earlier this week.

杰克·纳普：本周早些时候我做了这个练习。

I was switching to a new calendar thing, and trying some new features with...

我正在切换到新的日历，并尝试一些新功能......

We invest in this company called Reclaim, and they do this stuff-

我们投资了这家名为 Reclaim 的公司，他们做这些事情——

Lenny: I'm an investor in Reclaim also.

Lenny：我也是 Reclaim 的投资者。

Lenny: How about that?

莱尼：那怎么样？

Not planned, this promotion.

没有计划，这次促销。

John Zeratsky: It sounds like we knew that, but we actually didn't know that.

John Zeratsky：听起来我们知道这一点，但实际上我们并不知道。

I didn't know that you-

我不知道你-

Jake Knapp: That was just discovered.

杰克·纳普：这是刚刚发现的。

So anyway, I was just looking at my calendar, and I was like, you know what?

不管怎样，我只是看着我的日历，然后我就想，你知道吗？

I'm going to do what John does.

我要做约翰所做的事。

When I wake up, I'm going to schedule when I exercise, when I eat breakfast.

当我醒来时，我会安排何时锻炼、何时吃早餐。

I'm going to schedule when I take a shower, everything, and block it all out.

我会安排好洗澡时间和所有事情，然后把所有事情都排除掉。

When I walk and feed the dogs, everything's going to be on there, so that then I can have this idea, and when the day starts, I know there's slots for all those things.

当我散步和喂狗时，所有东西都会放在那里，这样我就可以有这个想法，当一天开始时，我知道所有这些东西都有位置。

And then I've found this week that what I thought happened, how long I thought those things take, was not how long they take.

然后这周我发现我认为发生的事情，我认为这些事情需要多长时间，并不是它们需要多长时间。

And so, set that thing to repeat every day and look at it, and then I'm like, "Oh, okay, interesting.

因此，将这件事设置为每天重复并查看它，然后我会说，“哦，好吧，有趣。

That's not what happened."

事实并非如此。”

Jake Knapp: Okay, so I can adjust it.

Jake Knapp：好的，我可以调整它。

I can adjust the template and be a bit more kind to myself about this part, be a bit more kind to myself about that part.

我可以调整模板，对这部分对自己好一点，对那部分对自己好一点。

Gosh, the morning time wasn't a good focus time for me.

天哪，早上对我来说可不是一个集中注意力的时间。

I'll see if I can...

我看看能不能...

Is there a way I can make that block happen in the afternoon?

有什么办法可以让这个区块在下午发生吗？

It's just a helpful way to track stuff and see it.

这只是跟踪和查看内容的一种有用方法。

Jake Knapp: Especially, I think a lot of people are visual learners.

杰克·纳普：尤其是，我认为很多人都是视觉学习者。

We can benefit from seeing things.

我们可以从观察事物中受益。

It's not everybody, but a lot of us are in that camp.

不是所有人，但我们很多人都属于这个阵营。

And when you put it on the calendar, you can see it, and that helps a lot.

当你把它放在日历上时，你就可以看到它，这很有帮助。

Lenny: And also keeps someone else from booking that time.

莱尼：同时也阻止其他人预订那个时间。

Double win.

双赢。

Jake Knapp: Not to be undervalued, keeps someone else from booking that time.

Jake Knapp：不要被低估，以免其他人在那个时间预订。

Right.

正确的。

And they look, they see, oh, okay, Lenny's already got stuff going on.

他们看，他们看到，哦，好吧，莱尼已经有事情要做了。

I figured out, okay, I better be cautious before I ask for something.

我想，好吧，在提出要求之前我最好保持谨慎。

And that default, to be helpful to other people, and say yes when they put something on a free spot on your calendar, defeats a lot of our inner purposes.

这种默认的做法，即为他人提供帮助，并在他们在你日历上的空闲位置上放置某些内容时说“是”，这违背了我们的许多内在目的。

Jake Knapp: And one core idea I don't think we've mentioned yet is that we strongly believe in people's intuition about how they should spend their time if they have the chance.

杰克·纳普：我认为我们还没有提到的一个核心理念是，我们坚信人们的直觉，即如果有机会的话，他们应该如何度过自己的时间。

What really is important.

真正重要的是什么。

And that is true.

这是真的。

We're talking about running this VC fund, or writing books, which are obviously very like, well, we're in charge of those things.

我们正在谈论运营这个风险投资基金，或者写书，这显然非常像，嗯，我们负责这些事情。

Jake Knapp: But this is also true, we've been employees in big organizations, I also believe it's true that if you have a boss, and a boss's boss's boss, that you have great insight about what, if you had a window of time, would be the highest leverage thing for you to do.

杰克·纳普：但这也是事实，我们一直是大组织的员工，我也相信，如果你有一个老板，而且是老板的老板的老板，你对如果有时间窗口的话，你会很有洞察力，知道什么是你要做的最高杠杆的事情。

And it might not show up on your OKRs, it might not be on your boss's radar, your boss's boss's boss's boss's radar.

它可能不会出现在你的 OKR 上，它可能不会出现在你老板的雷达上，你老板的老板的老板的老板的雷达上。

You have great intuition, and we want to create space for you to do that thing because you're going to feel better about it, you're going to be more satisfied, and also good things are going to happen.

你有很强的直觉，我们希望为你创造空间去做那件事，因为你会感觉更好，你会更满意，而且好事也会发生。

Lenny: We're spending a lot of time on this highlight, but I think it's because it's so powerful.

莱尼：我们在这个亮点上花了很多时间，但我认为这是因为它太强大了。

It's such a simple idea, but so effective.

这是一个非常简单的想法，但非常有效。

So, just to kind of give people tactical advice for how to actually implement this, just a couple things that I'll summarize.

因此，只是为了给人们提供如何实际实施这一点的战术建议，我将总结几件事。

Lenny: One is, to pick the highlight, you had a couple of questions I have here, for how to help you pick one for the day.

莱尼：一是，要挑选亮点，我在这里向您提出了几个问题，关于如何帮助您挑选当天的亮点。

So, you either ask which highlight will bring you the most satisfaction?

那么，您是否会问哪个亮点会让您最满意？

Or, when I reflect on today, what will bring me the most joy?

或者说，今天回想起来，什么会给我带来最大的快乐？

Maybe that's the same question.

也许这是同一个问题。

But I-

但我——

Jake Knapp: Slightly different, slightly different.

杰克·纳普：略有不同，略有不同。

Lenny: Slightly different.

莱尼：略有不同。

That's true.

这是真的。

Okay, good.

好的，很好。

Jake Knapp: Satisfaction could be like, "I know this thing has to get done, and I got it done."

Jake Knapp：满意度可能是这样的：“我知道这件事必须完成，而且我完成了。”

Jake Knapp: Joy could be like, "Man, that was great." And they're in the same family, but they're cousins.

杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：喜悦可能是，“伙计，那太棒了。”他们虽然是同一个家族的人，但却是表兄弟。

John Zeratsky: Yeah.

约翰·泽拉茨基：是的。

And I mentioned, a lot of my highlights, personally, are very much in the urgency or satisfaction camp.

我提到过，就我个人而言，我的很多亮点很大程度上都属于紧迫感或满意度阵营。

They're these big chunky projects.

它们是这些大而粗的项目。

I got it done.

我完成了。

I finished that deck.

我完成了那套牌。

I finished writing that thing.

我把那件事写完了。

John Zeratsky: But I also try to stay attuned to when I need something else in my day, when I need...

约翰·泽拉茨基（John Zeratsky）：但是当我一天中需要其他东西时，当我需要......

I need some joy.

我需要一些快乐。

I need some fun, some play.

我需要一些乐趣，一些游戏。

I need to prioritize going for a run, or going for a walk, or cooking a big dinner.

我需要优先考虑去跑步，或者去散步，或者做一顿丰盛的晚餐。

And so, I trust my gut on those things, and I say, "Okay, what's most important to me today is not to be productive, but to do something else."

因此，我相信自己对这些事情的直觉，我说：“好吧，今天对我来说最重要的不是高效，而是做其他事情。”

John Zeratsky: And sometimes that's the best highlight for me.

约翰·泽拉茨基：有时这对我来说是最好的亮点。

For other people, maybe that's their highlight every single day.

对于其他人来说，也许这就是他们每一天的亮点。

Maybe they work as a...

也许他们的工作是...

I don't know, I've talked to a lot of people who work in healthcare settings about this.

我不知道，我和很多在医疗机构工作的人谈过这个问题。

They're a nurse or a doctor, and when they're at work, they're at work.

他们是护士或医生，当他们在工作时，他们就在工作。

They're not bouncing around between meetings and emails and Zooms.

他们不会在会议、电子邮件和 Zoom 之间来回奔波。

They're on their feet.

他们站起来了。

There's no time to do anything else.

没有时间做其他事情。

So, their highlight is probably something they need to do at the end of the day to unwind, or take care of themselves.

因此，他们的亮点可能是他们在一天结束时需要做的事情来放松或照顾自己。

John Zeratsky: So, you have these three different strategies that we talk about, urgency, satisfaction, and joy, as being three different places you can look for the right highlight for you each day.

约翰·泽拉茨基：所以，你有我们谈论的三种不同的策略，紧迫感、满足感和快乐，作为你每天可以寻找适合你的亮点的三个不同的地方。

But ultimately, I think it comes down to just trusting your gut and sort of asking yourself, like you said, "What do I want to look back on and have said, yeah, I'm glad I made time for that"?

但最终，我认为这取决于相信你的直觉，并问自己，就像你说的，“我想回顾什么，并说，是的，我很高兴我为此腾出了时间”？

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So, you touched on the third.

所以，你谈到了第三个。

So, it's basically, what would give you the most satisfaction?

所以，基本上，什么会让你最满意？

So, in the morning, you essentially ask, or the night before.

因此，您基本上会在早上或前一天晚上询问。

I think one of you, I forget, because when I was listening to the audiobook, I don't know who's talking.

我想你们中的一个，我忘记了，因为当我听有声读物时，我不知道是谁在说话。

But one of you is like, "I like to do it the day before." Is that right?

但你们中的一个人会说，“我喜欢在前一天做。”是这样吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So, the questions you asked either the night before or in the morning are, "What would give me the most satisfaction today, or the next day?

所以，你在前一天晚上或早上问的问题是：“今天或第二天什么会让我最满意？

What would give me the most joy?

什么能给我最大的快乐？

Or what's the most pressing thing that I need to get done?"

或者我需要完成的最紧迫的事情是什么？”

Lenny: So, you do that, and then the advice is either write it on a Post-It...

莱尼：所以，你这样做，然后建议要么把它写在便利贴上……

I actually bought these tiny little Post-Its by accident.

事实上，我无意中买了这些小小的便利贴。

I was trying to buy regular Post-Its, and they're actually really great for this specific use case, so it's perfect.

我试图购买普通的便利贴，它们实际上非常适合这个特定的用例，所以它是完美的。

Write your highlight, stick it on the monitor.

写下您的亮点，将其贴在显示器上。

Lenny: So, that's one way of doing it.

莱尼：所以，这是一种方法。

The other is stick it in your calendar, where you have focus time.

另一个是把它贴在你的日历上，在那里你有专注的时间。

In theory, it's like every day, here's my focus time, where you have the most energy.

理论上来说，就像每一天，这里都是我的专注时间，也是你精力最多的时候。

Is that the general advice?

这是一般建议吗？

John Zeratsky: Generally, although I think that that's probably more important for a certain kind of highlight.

约翰·泽拉茨基：一般来说，尽管我认为这对于某种亮点来说可能更重要。

I have focused time most mornings.

大多数早晨我都有专注的时间。

To be really specific and nerdy about it, Monday, Wednesday and Thursday mornings I have focus time.

说得具体一点，周一、周三和周四早上我有专注时间。

Tuesday and Friday mornings I have meetings.

周二和周五早上我有会议。

But on a Thursday night, my highlight might actually be to have friends over and cook dinner.

但在周四晚上，我的亮点实际上可能是邀请朋友过来做饭。

And that's not the same as focus time, but it's this pressure release valve where I'm like, "That's the thing that I want to make sure..." I want to make sure I wrap up email at 5 so that have time to get everything ready, but it's not necessarily that peak energy moment in the way that we might think about being productive or getting things done or getting into that flow state.

这与专注时间不一样，但正是这个压力释放阀，我想，“这就是我想要确保的事情......”我想确保我在 5 点结束电子邮件，以便有时间准备好一切，但这不一定是我们可能会考虑提高生产力或完成工作或进入心流状态的能量峰值时刻。

Lenny: So, there's a lot of ways to do it.

莱尼：所以，有很多方法可以做到这一点。

So, maybe you just take away, if you're listening to this, is just think about what could be your highlight for today or tomorrow?

所以，如果你正在听这个，也许你只是想一想今天或明天的亮点是什么？

John Zeratsky: Yeah.

约翰·泽拉茨基：是的。

And I would say, go one step further and make sure to write it down.

我想说，更进一步，确保把它写下来。

Don't just think about it, because there's something really special that happens when you write things down, even if it's on a sticky.

不要只是想它，因为当你写下事情时，即使是在便签纸上，也会发生一些非常特别的事情。

Even if it's in your notebook, your journal, even if it's a note on your phone.

即使它在你的笔记本、日记中，即使它是你手机上的便条。

Take that step as well.

也迈出这一步吧。

Jake Knapp: Even if you don't see it again, just writing it down is a big deal.

Jake Knapp：即使你再也见不到它，把它写下来也是一件大事。

John Zeratsky: Yeah, that's a really important point.

约翰·泽拉茨基：是的，这是非常重要的一点。

Jake Knapp: I can give you a concrete example of a highlight, and a failed highlight, from yesterday, actually.

Jake Knapp：实际上，我可以给你一个昨天的亮点和失败亮点的具体例子。

And so, most days these days, my highlight is around making progress on the book.

所以，现在的大部分时间里，我的重点都是围绕着这本书的进展。

John alluded to working on a book, and so obviously it's a huge project.

约翰提到正在写一本书，显然这是一个巨大的项目。

I heard it said that if you are writing books, it's like having homework forever.

我听人说，如果你在写书，就好像永远有作业一样。

You always feel like there's always more to do.

你总觉得还有更多事情要做。

And so, that's mostly been my highlight.

所以，这主要是我的亮点。

Jake Knapp: But yesterday, I wanted to prepare for this podcast.

杰克·纳普：但是昨天，我想为这个播客做准备。

I knew that was going to be satisfying, to feel like I was ready.

我知道那会很满足，感觉我已经准备好了。

We don't think about talking about Make Time all the time, like we said, it's sort of like a side project for us.

正如我们所说，我们不会一直考虑谈论“Make Time”，这对我们来说有点像一个副项目。

So, I wanted to be ready and somewhat coherent.

所以，我想做好准备并保持一定的连贯性。

And I knew I'd be satisfied, but I also knew it was urgent.

我知道我会很满意，但我也知道这是紧急的。

We're going to be doing the recording today.

今天我们要进行录音。

So, that was my highlight.

所以，这是我的亮点。

Write that down.

把它写下来。

"Get ready for podcast."

“准备播客。”

Jake Knapp: And I had two focus blocks, one in the morning, one in the afternoon.

杰克·纳普：我有两个焦点时间段，一个在早上，一个在下午。

It should be easy.

这应该很容易。

Focus block number one, kind of just didn't do a good job.

焦点块第一，有点做得不好。

I was distracted, I was in my email, I was doing everything that I would say you shouldn't do, I was doing.

我心烦意乱，我在写电子邮件，我做了所有我认为你不应该做的事情，我正在做。

Feeling down on myself.

对自己感到沮丧。

I've become a loser.

我成了一个失败者。

I didn't get anything done.

我什么也没做。

Jake Knapp: Okay, second focus block.

杰克·纳普：好的，第二个焦点块。

Man, now the pressure's on.

伙计，现在压力来了。

I got to do it.

我必须这么做。

And so, I finally get into the zone.

就这样，我终于进入了状态。

And my wife thinks I have a pretty serious case of undiagnosed ADHD, so a lot of it is just, if I really do have a deadline, then I really will click in.

我的妻子认为我患有相当严重的未确诊的多动症，所以很多事情只是，如果我真的有最后期限，那么我真的会点击进去。

So, now I have a deadline.

所以，现在我有一个最后期限。

I'm doing it, and I'm making notes, and getting there, but I feel like there's still a ways to go.

我正在做，我正在做笔记，并到达那里，但我觉得还有很长的路要走。

Jake Knapp: And my 12-year-old son bursts into the room, and it was, "Oh gosh, you're invading me right when I'm at peak focus." And he is like, "Hey, I'm going to do one more trip outside to sled in the snow.

杰克·纳普：我 12 岁的儿子冲进房间，他说：“天哪，你在我注意力最集中的时候入侵了我。”他说：“嘿，我还要再去一次外面的雪地里玩雪橇。

Do you want to come?" And I'm like, first reaction, "No, absolutely not.

你想来吗？”我的第一反应是：“不，绝对不是。

I can get this thing done.

我能把这件事做好。

It's my highlight.

这是我的亮点。

This is the one thing I need to do today.

这是我今天需要做的一件事。

I can do it max level of quality if I can just stay in this precious zone of focus."

如果我能留在这个宝贵的焦点区域，我就能达到最高水平。”

Jake Knapp: But then I was like, "Wait a second, what's really going to be the highlight of my day?

杰克·纳普：但后来我想，“等一下，我这一天真正的亮点是什么？

What's really going to be the highlight, the thing that I might actually remember in the future?" We rarely get snow here.

什么才是真正的亮点，什么是我将来可能真正记住的事情？”我们这里很少下雪。

I live on this island in Washington state.

我住在华盛顿州的这个岛上。

We maybe get significant snowfall once every two years.

我们可能每两年就会降一次大雪。

We've only lived here for a few years.

我们在这里只住了几年。

He's 12.

他12岁了。

He loves snow more than anything in the world.

他爱雪胜过世界上的一切。

He loves snow.

他喜欢雪。

But he grew up in California, so he hasn't had many days, and he's 12.

但他在加利福尼亚州长大，所以他的日子并不多，而且他才 12 岁。

He's on the cusp of being a teenager.

他正处于青少年时期。

There's not, maybe, any more days in his life that he's going to want me to get on the sled with him and wrap my arms around him and go down the hill.

也许，在他的一生中，他不会再希望我和他一起坐上雪橇，用我的双臂拥抱他下山了。

Jake Knapp: I was like, "I got to get out there." So, okay.

杰克·纳普：我当时想，“我必须离开那里。”那么，好吧。

Pause this, ran outside.

停下来，跑出去。

We did it.

我们做到了。

And man, it was magical.

伙计，这太神奇了。

And I didn't know we were going to get one more in, because the snow was supposed to be melting already.

我不知道我们还会再进去，因为雪应该已经融化了。

We went down the hill, we went down the hill, we went...

我们下山了，我们下山了，我们下山了……

It got dark, we had to stop.

天黑了，我们不得不停下来。

But it was so magic.

但它是如此神奇。

And I remember the very last end of the sled run, and it's like the last one, and he's like, "Man," he's like, "That was a great last sled run.

我记得雪橇赛的最后一场，就像最后一场，他说，“伙计，”他说，“那是一次很棒的最后一次雪橇赛。

So glad we did it."

很高兴我们做到了。”

Jake Knapp: And I was like, "Yeah, so glad we did it.

杰克·纳普：我当时想，“是的，很高兴我们做到了。

It's great." Come back inside, 15 minutes.

太棒了。” 15 分钟后回到里面。

I try to hustle and get this done.

我努力抓紧时间完成这件事。

So, I was like, maybe it was like 80% or 75% to where I wanted to be on this.

所以，我想，也许已经达到了我想要的 80% 或 75%。

I couldn't check off that highlight as being the most important thing.

我无法将这一亮点视为最重要的事情。

But because of the framing of, it might be wrong, what am I going to remember, all this stuff, it just felt natural to me to switch modes and say, "Oh my god, that actually is a highlight.

但由于框架，它可能是错误的，我要记住什么，所有这些东西，对我来说切换模式并说，“哦，天哪，这实际上是一个亮点。

That's this thing that's going to be really, really precious.

这才是真正非常珍贵的东西。

That's where the joy and the satisfaction are most for today."

这就是今天最快乐和满足的地方。”

Jake Knapp: And still, because I had written down the other thing, I still did it instead of churning on email the entire day.

杰克·纳普：尽管如此，因为我已经写下了另一件事，所以我仍然这样做了，而不是一整天都在处理电子邮件。

But I screwed up twice, but it still turned out pretty good.

虽然我搞砸了两次，但结果还是不错的。

So, anyway, that's kind of what it can look like at its best.

所以，无论如何，这就是它最好的样子。

And a lot of times, it doesn't make that much sense, and a lot of times I miss the special moments, or I miss the key work moments, or the key time when I could have gotten the most done.

很多时候，这没有多大意义，很多时候我错过了特殊的时刻，或者我错过了关键的工作时刻，或者我本可以完成最多工作的关键时间。

But I just feel better about it, which is a lot of what this is about.

但我只是感觉好多了，这就是很多事情的意义所在。

I just feel better about it because I feel more intentional.

我只是感觉好多了，因为我感觉更有目的性。

Lenny: Well, thank you for sharing the real talk.

莱尼：好的，谢谢你分享真实的谈话。

I think you made the right choice.

我认为你做出了正确的选择。

I feel bad for having you have to decide between your kid and this podcast.

我为你必须在你的孩子和这个播客之间做出决定而感到难过。

Jake Knapp: You didn't have anything to do with it.

杰克·纳普：你与这件事没有任何关系。

No, no, no. I just wanted to...

不，不，不。我只是想...

It's selfish for me to want to be prepared.

我想要做好准备是自私的。

I just want to look good.

我只是想看起来不错。

I just want to sound like I know what I'm talking about.

我只是想让听起来我知道我在说什么。

Lenny: Well, it's working out.

莱尼：嗯，一切顺利。

It all worked out.

一切顺利。

That's a great story.

这是一个很棒的故事。

It reminds me, in your book at some point, I forget who it was of you that had to...

它提醒我，在你的书中的某个时刻，我忘记了你是谁必须......

You're like, "Here's my priorities in my life right now." And it was like family, writing, Make Time, something else, and then you're like, "Okay, actually Make Time is more important right now than my family," because you just have to get this done, and I wonder if this is a counter.

你会说，“这是我现在生活中的优先事项。”就像家庭、写作、腾出时间等等，然后你会想，“好吧，实际上腾出时间现在比我的家人更重要”，因为你只需要完成这件事，我想知道这是否是一个计数器。

Jake Knapp: Well, yeah.

杰克·纳普：嗯，是的。

I mean, I think that part of what people have found useful about Make Time is that John and I come at this from different perspectives.

我的意思是，我认为人们发现“腾出时间”有用的部分原因是约翰和我从不同的角度看待这个问题。

And I have kids.

我有孩子。

I have a twelve-year-old and a twenty-year-old, sons, and dealing with being a dad is a big part of how I try to figure out how to make sense of what to do.

我有一个十二岁的儿子和一个二十岁的儿子，作为一名父亲是我试图弄清楚如何理解该做什么的重要组成部分。

Jake Knapp: And John doesn't have kids, and so he has it easy.

杰克·纳普：约翰没有孩子，所以他过得很轻松。

No, he doesn't, but that's just a different frame of mind.

不，他不这么认为，但这只是一种不同的心态。

And I think sometimes I read something that people without kids wrote, and I think, "Well yeah, sure.

我想有时我会读到一些没有孩子的人写的东西，我想，“嗯，是的，当然。

I am sure that's wonderful for you, but what about X-Y-Z?"

我确信这对你来说很棒，但是 X-Y-Z 呢？”

Jake Knapp: And although, I'm sure a lot of people who have more kids, or when they have young kids, it would...

杰克·纳普：尽管如此，我确信很多有更多孩子的人，或者当他们有年幼的孩子时，它会......

But that's a real part of it.

但这是其中真正的一部分。

And whether it's your family, your significant other, anything that's going on in your life that's not part of your work, there are times when you, on a day, or in a moment, you have to shift those priorities.

无论是你的家庭、你的另一半，还是你生活中发生的任何不属于你工作的事情，有时，在某一天或某一时刻，你必须改变这些优先事项。

And it can help to just be this idea of stack-ranking things, and being clear about it, can help you just come to terms with it.

它可以帮助你成为堆栈排序的想法，并且清楚地了解它，可以帮助你接受它。

"I'm making that decision right now.

“我现在正在做出这个决定。

It makes sense to make right now." Or at least, I can see that I did it, and if it seems like I screwed it up, I'd flip it back.

现在做是有意义的。”或者至少，我可以看到我做到了，如果看起来我搞砸了，我会把它翻回来。

I know where it happened.

我知道事情发生在哪里。

Jake Knapp: A lot of this is just like if you were designing a product or writing code or whatever, you can see that's where the bug happened.

Jake Knapp：很多事情就像你在设计产品或编写代码或其他什么东西一样，你可以看到错误发生的地方。

I'll just try to fix that line.

我会尝试修复该行。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I love how real you're getting, and it also reminds me of...

我喜欢你的真实，这也让我想起......

We just had a kid.

我们刚刚有了一个孩子。

He's seven months old, so I'm going through a lot.

他七个月大了，所以我经历了很多。

Jake Knapp: That's busy times.

杰克·纳普：那段时间很忙。

Seven months old is busy times.

七个月是忙碌的时期。

Jake Knapp: People always told me, told us, when we had kids when they were babies.

杰克·纳普：当我们有孩子的时候，人们总是告诉我，告诉我们，当他们还是婴儿的时候。

They're always like, "Oh, just you wait." I just feel like this is a thing that people want to tell other parents.

他们总是说：“哦，你等着吧。”我只是觉得这是人们想告诉其他父母的事情。

"Just you wait until this happens." And then one person said, "You know what?

“你就等着这件事发生吧。”然后一个人说：“你知道吗？

Generally speaking, it gets easier and easier and easier.

一般来说，它会变得越来越容易、越来越容易。

Every month, every week, generally speaking, it gets easier." And I think that is true, so just keep that in mind if you're ever feeling like it's overwhelming.

一般来说，每个月、每周都会变得更容易。”我认为这是事实，所以如果你感觉这令人难以承受，请记住这一点。

Lenny: No, I think that is true.

莱尼：不，我认为这是真的。

I've experienced that.

我有过这样的经历。

It also gets more amazing.

它还变得更加令人惊奇。

That's what I'm finding, too.

这也是我所发现的。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Work OS.

Lenny：这一集是 Work OS 为您带来的。

If you're building a SASS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features, like SAML authentication and skim provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SASS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求企业功能，例如 SAML 身份验证和skim 配置。

That's where Work OS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 Work OS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Lenny: Their APIs are easy to understand, so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

Lenny：他们的 API 很容易理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

And hundreds of other companies are already powered by Work OS, including ones you probably know, like Vercel, Webflow, and Loom.

还有数百家其他公司已经由 Work OS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。

Lenny: Work OS also recently launched AuthKit, a complete authentication and user management service.

Lenny：Work OS 最近还推出了 AuthKit，这是一个完整的身份验证和用户管理服务。

It's essentially a modern alternative to OP Zero, but with better pricing and more flexible APIs.

它本质上是 OP Zero 的现代替代品，但具有更好的定价和更灵活的 API。

AuthKit's design is stunning out of the box, and you can also fully customize it to fit your app's brand.

AuthKit 的设计开箱即用，令人惊叹，您还可以完全自定义它以适合您的应用程序品牌。

Lenny: It's an effortless experience from your first user all the way to your largest enterprise customer.

Lenny：从第一个用户一直到最大的企业客户，这是一种轻松的体验。

Best of all, AuthKit is free for any developer up to 1 million users.

最重要的是，AuthKit 对任何拥有 100 万用户的开发人员都是免费的。

Check it out at work-

上班时检查一下——

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

for any developer up to 1 million users.

对于任何拥有最多 100 万用户的开发人员。

Check it out at workos.com to learn more.

请访问 workos.com 以了解更多信息。

That's workos.com.

那是workos.com。

Lenny: I want to talk about the next bucket that, you call it laser, you could also think of it as just how to focus better, and this is where most of the very tactical tips for how to avoid getting distracted are.

莱尼：我想谈谈下一个桶，你称之为激光，你也可以将其视为如何更好地集中注意力，这就是大多数如何避免分心的战术技巧所在。

So what I think might be helpful here is let's just do a rapid fire through as your favorite tactical tips to help people stay focused, and the ones that you actually do and find most helpful, I think it's like six years later now since you published the book, the better.

因此，我认为这里可能有帮助的是，让我们快速介绍一下您最喜欢的战术技巧，以帮助人们保持专注，以及您实际上所做的并发现最有帮助的技巧，我认为自从您出版这本书以来，已经是六年后的事情了，效果更好。

So let's go through some stuff here.

那么让我们来看看这里的一些内容。

John Zeratsky: Yeah, the basic principle with laser is that willpower is never going to win, and there's great research on this, but for now just trust me, you're not going to white-knuckle your way through not looking at Twitter when you're trying to work.

约翰·泽拉茨基：是的，激光的基本原理是意志力永远不会获胜，对此有很多研究，但现在请相信我，当你尝试工作时，你不会因为不看 Twitter 而紧张不已。

So it's all about making it hard, creating barriers to getting distracted.

所以这一切都是为了让事情变得困难，为分心制造障碍。

So a few things for me, I'm not on Instagram and I'm not on Facebook.

对我来说有几件事，我不上 Instagram，也不上 Facebook。

I was on both of those things and I left both of them, I disabled my accounts.

我曾经参与过这两件事，但我离开了它们，我禁用了我的帐户。

I am on Twitter and LinkedIn, but I don't have either of those apps installed on my phone.

我使用 Twitter 和 LinkedIn，但我的手机上没有安装这两个应用程序。

I stay logged out of those sites on my computer, except for when I want to use them for some specific purpose.

我在计算机上保持退出这些网站的状态，除非我想将它们用于某些特定目的。

John Zeratsky: LinkedIn I need to use all the time, because I'm a VC and I have to look people up and stuff, so I found this Chrome plugin, or Chrome extension, I guess is the right word, that disables the feed in LinkedIn.

John Zeratsky：我需要一直使用 LinkedIn，因为我是一名 VC，我必须查找人员和资料，所以我找到了这个 Chrome 插件，或者 Chrome 扩展，我想这是正确的词，它禁用了 LinkedIn 中的提要。

So when I go to LinkedIn.com, it's the search bar at the top but there's no feed, which is amazing because I can use LinkedIn as the phone book and then not get distracted.

因此，当我访问 LinkedIn.com 时，它是顶部的搜索栏，但没有提要，这很神奇，因为我可以使用 LinkedIn 作为电话簿，然后不会分心。

So those are some of the very, very concrete specific things that I do, all, again, with the goal of putting a speed bump between me and that thing so that if I go, and I don't do this much anymore but I used to, literally my hands on the keyboard would just be like, T-W-I, like Twitter.com, and then you see that log in screen instead of my juicy feed and I'm like, oh yeah, right, okay, I did that on purpose, great, I broke that feedback loop a little bit.

所以这些是我做的一些非常非常具体的具体事情，所有的，再一次，目的是在我和那件事之间设置一个减速带，这样如果我走了，我不再做这么多了，但我以前，字面上我的手在键盘上就像，T-W-I，就像 Twitter.com，然后你看到登录屏幕而不是我的多汁的提要，我就像，哦，是的，对了，好吧，我是故意这样做的，太棒了，我打破了反馈循环一点点。

Lenny: I did a similar thing with Twitter/X, where I deleted the app and I just used the mobile website.

Lenny：我对 Twitter/X 做了类似的事情，我删除了应用程序，只使用了移动网站。

I think this point of logging out is really powerful, I think people haven't heard that idea as much, because it's not like you can't log in really easily, you just click a couple things and you're back.

我认为退出这一点真的很强大，我认为人们还没有听说过这个想法，因为这并不是说你不能很容易地登录，你只需点击几个东西就可以回来。

But to your point, it reminds you, okay, I see, I really shouldn't have done this.

但就你而言，它提醒你，好吧，我明白了，我真的不应该这样做。

John Zeratsky: Well, I also signed up for two-factor authentication for everything, not because I care about somebody hacking my account, but because it's another speed bump.

约翰·泽拉茨基：嗯，我还为所有事情注册了双因素身份验证，不是因为我关心有人入侵我的帐户，而是因为这是另一个减速带。

Because that way, even if your browser remembers your password, or I use one password, so even if the browser extension is going to fill it in for me, there's still another step, so it's sort of reverse engineering my own distractibility.

因为这样，即使你的浏览器记住了你的密码，或者我使用了一个密码，所以即使浏览器扩展程序要为我填写它，仍然还有另一个步骤，所以这有点对我自己的分心进行逆向工程。

Lenny: That feature that everyone's always talking about that Apple built of the code being automatically there in the keyboard, that's counter to this friction that you've created.

莱尼：每个人都在谈论苹果公司在键盘中自动生成的代码的功能，这与您所造成的摩擦相反。

Lenny: Okay, so it's interesting is I had this, and then I just like, goddammit I really just want to be on Twitter.

莱尼：好吧，有趣的是我有这个，然后我就喜欢，天哪，我真的只想上 Twitter。

And so I just re-installed it again recently, and I need to fight that again.

所以我最近又重新安装了它，我需要再次对抗它。

John Zeratsky: Well, I go through cycles like that too, and I go through that a lot with email.

约翰·泽拉茨基：嗯，我也经历过这样的循环，而且我在电子邮件方面经常经历这样的循环。

Jake, you still don't have email on your phone, is that right?

杰克，你的手机上还没有电子邮件，对吗？

Jake Knapp: No, I would be on the floor checking email right now on this call if I did, on the floor.

杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：不，如果我在场的话，我现在会在这次电话会议上在场上检查电子邮件。

John Zeratsky: I used to do that, Jake inspired me a long time ago to remove email from my phone, and so for years and years that's been my default.

约翰·泽拉茨基：我曾经这样做过，很久以前杰克就启发我从手机中删除电子邮件，所以多年来这一直是我的默认设置。

But more recently I've had more reasons to install it, mostly related to travel, if I'm on the go and I just want to stay on top of things.

但最近我有更多的理由安装它，主要是与旅行有关，如果我在旅​​途中并且我只想掌握一切。

And something that Jake and I have talked about a lot is you go through these different cycles of, hey, I need this thing, or I want this thing, and then part of the reflect step, part of paying attention and reflecting on how it's going is to recognize, oh wow, I've actually been spending a lot of time on email on my phone, or a lot of time on Twitter, maybe I'll just uninstall it for a while.

杰克和我经常谈论的是，你要经历这些不同的周期，嘿，我需要这个东西，或者我想要这个东西，然后是反思步骤的一部分，关注并反思它将如何认识到，哦，哇，我实际上花了很多时间在手机上的电子邮件上，或者很多时间在 Twitter 上，也许我会卸载它一段时间。

Maybe I'll just reset and do that for a while.

也许我会重置并这样做一段时间。

And then there'll be some other thing that happens that causes you to reinstall it, and that's totally fine, because you're being deliberate about it and you're paying attention, rather than saying it has to always be this way forever and it's set in stone.

然后会发生其他一些事情，导致您重新安装它，这完全没问题，因为您正在深思熟虑并且正在关注它，而不是说它必须永远如此并且是一成不变的。

Lenny: That's a great tip of just coming back to it, not feeling like you're defeated, it's like, all right, let's try this again.

莱尼：这是一个很好的建议，让你回到正题，不要感觉自己被打败了，就像，好吧，让我们再试一次。

Jake Knapp: Yeah, I think a big part of it is if you can experience the feeling of not having it on your phone.

Jake Knapp：是的，我认为其中很大一部分是你是否能体验到手机上没有它的感觉。

Like I'm old enough to have lived in a world building products where there were no smartphones, and we got a lot done back then, things happened.

就像我已经足够大了，生活在一个没有智能手机的世界里，我们已经完成了很多工作，事情发生了。

I mean, for God's sake, they designed the first iPhone without being able to use iPhones while they did it, you can do a lot.

我的意思是，看在上帝的份上，他们设计了第一部 iPhone，但在他们设计的时候你还不能使用 iPhone，你可以做很多事情。

So this idea that we have to have it or everything's going to fall apart, that's just not true for 99.99999% of everyone.

因此，我们必须拥有它，否则一切都会崩溃的想法对于 99.99999% 的人来说并不正确。

Jake Knapp: It's interesting to see what it feels like if you delete all of the infinity pools off of your phone, and this is something I did out of rage at myself in 2012.

Jake Knapp：如果你从手机上删除所有无边泳池，看看会是什么样的感觉，这很有趣，这是我在 2012 年出于对自己的愤怒而做的事情。

It was another situation where I was with my kids, who were much younger at the time, and I was spending time with them, we're playing wooden trains, and all of a sudden my son's like, "Dad, dad, dad, dad, dad," and I'm like, "God, what?" And I didn't even realize it but I was on my phone, and I don't even remember what I was doing, email or something, but I think I told him, he's like, "What's on your phone?" Because to him, he was like, we're doing something really fun, so if you're on your phone it must be something really cool, maybe it would be a cool thing to share, because this is great, so it must be another great thing.

这是另一种情况，我和我的孩子们在一起，他们当时要小得多，我和他们在一起，我们玩木制火车，突然我儿子说，“爸爸，爸爸，爸爸，爸爸，爸爸，”我想，“天啊，什么？”我什至没有意识到，但我正在打电话，我什至不记得我在做什么，电子邮件或其他什么，但我想我告诉了他，他就像，“你手机上有什么？”因为对他来说，他就像，我们正在做一些非常有趣的事情，所以如果你在手机上，那一定是非常酷的事情，也许分享它会是一件很酷的事情，因为这很棒，所以它一定是另一件很棒的事情。

He wasn't trying to shame me or anything.

他并不是想羞辱我或什么的。

Jake Knapp: And I was all defensive, I'm like, "Well, I need to do this for work," which was, I think, my internal monologue of why I was doing this thing that actually was just a really low-friction dopamine hit.

杰克·纳普：我很防御，我想，“好吧，我需要为工作做这件事”，我想，这是我的内心独白，说明我为什么要做这件事，实际上只是一种非常低摩擦的多巴胺打击。

And then I thought, God, this is not what I wanted, this is not why I worked so hard today so I would get done with my work so I could be home in time to do this before my kids go to bed.

然后我想，天哪，这不是我想要的，这不是我今天这么努力工作的原因，这样我就能完成工作，这样我就可以在孩子们睡觉之前及时回家做这件事。

And I was like, screw this, so I just started deleting things on my phone, and I deleted email and I deleted Facebook and I deleted this, everything that had an infinity pool, everything that had an infinite amount of content.

我当时想，搞砸了，所以我开始删除手机上的东西，我删除了电子邮件，我删除了 Facebook，我删除了这个，所有有无限池的东西，所有有无限量内容的东西。

News is like this, anything streaming.

新闻就是这样，什么都流。

Jake Knapp: When we wrote this book, it came out in 2018, I think we said we thought it was going to get worse, and it has.

Jake Knapp：当我们写这本书时，它于 2018 年出版，我想我们说过我们认为情况会变得更糟，而且事实确实如此。

But at that point in time there was really Netflix, and now there's all these streaming services.

但那时确实有 Netflix，现在有所有这些流媒体服务。

At that point in time there was Instagram and Facebook, but now there's TikTok, the best part of every video available instantly right here.

那时有 Instagram 和 Facebook，但现在有 TikTok，每个视频中最好的部分都可以在这里立即观看。

This stuff, it only gets harder to resist.

这种东西，只会变得更难以抗拒。

When you clear all that stuff off of your phone, it's painful, the idea of deleting all this stuff, and each time the phone's going to ask you, "This is going to delete all the data and settings, are you sure you want to do that?" It doesn't want you to.

当你从手机上清除所有这些东西时，一想到要删除所有这些东西，而且每次手机都会问你，“这将删除所有数据和设置，你确定要这样做吗？”，这是很痛苦的。它不希望你这样做。

And when you do that though, what does that feel like?

但当你这样做时，感觉如何？

And it's usually a feeling of discomfort, but also relief that I don't have to check this, this thing, I don't have to check it, I don't have to.

这通常是一种不舒服的感觉，但同时也让我松了口气，因为我不必检查这个，这个东西，我不必检查它，我不必这样做。

Jake Knapp: And if you've ever felt like your phone was in the Lord of the Rings, how Bilbo, I guess, yeah, Lord of the Rings, they want to put their hand in their pocket and touch the ring, or put the ring on without even knowing it, Frodo's like, "I didn't even realize I did it." That's what this thing is like.

杰克·纳普：如果你曾经感觉自己的手机就在《指环王》中，比尔博，我猜，是的，《指环王》中，他们想把手放进口袋里触摸戒指，或者在不知情的情况下戴上戒指，弗罗多就像是，“我什至没有意识到我做到了。”这就是这个东西的样子。

And when you take those off, just that feeling of relief is, to me, so powerful, that having done this for a decade now, and yeah, there's exceptions, like I'm traveling, God, I have to check my email for X reason, and I install it and I check it.

当你把它们脱下来时，那种如释重负的感觉对我来说是如此强烈，我已经这样做了十年了，是的，也有例外，比如我在旅行，上帝，我必须检查我的电子邮件，因为某种原因，我安装它并检查它。

And then it automatically, because I'm aware of it, I'll just feel this static.

然后它会自动地，因为我意识到了这一点，我就会感觉到这种静态。

Jake Knapp: There's this notion of attention residue, and I think the researcher who coined this term is Sophie Leroy from the University of Washington.

Jake Knapp：存在注意力残留的概念，我认为创造这个术语的研究人员是华盛顿大学的 Sophie Leroy。

Anyway, you can look that up, I think I learned about that from Cal Newport.

不管怎样，你可以查一下，我想我是从加州纽波特那里学到的。

But this idea says, it makes a lot of sense, that you pay attention to some things and they just stick in your head and they create this static, those apps just create this static.

但这个想法说，它很有意义，你注意到一些事情，它们只是停留在你的脑海中，它们创建了这个静态，那些应用程序只是创建了这个静态。

The idea of email being on my phone and accessible at any time creates a discomfort, a disquiet that now that I've seen it and felt what it's like to not have it, I could not imagine experiencing it.

电子邮件在我的手机上并且可以随时访问的想法让我感到不舒服和不安，现在我已经看到了它并感受到了没有它的感觉，我无法想象经历它。

Jake Knapp: You do give some things up.

杰克·纳普：你确实放弃了一些东西。

You're not going to be as responsive.

你不会那么敏感。

John and I don't have as many Twitter followers as we'd have if we used Twitter.

约翰和我的 Twitter 关注者数量没有我们使用 Twitter 时那么多。

There are these things that you look at other people, and I just saw a post on LinkedIn because I haven't used plug-in yet, but I looked on this post and it was a colleague that I used to have and she was saying, "Yeah, I posted a few tweets last year and a couple of them went viral and I gained 30,000 followers." And I was like, man, all I have is 30,000 followers, and that was from years and years ago, I thought I was a pretty big deal, oh jeez, maybe I should...

这些东西你看其他人，我刚刚在LinkedIn上看到了一个帖子，因为我还没有使用插件，但我看了这个帖子，这是我以前的一个同事，她说，“是的，我去年发布了几条推文，其中几条像病毒一样传播开来，我获得了30,000名粉丝。”我当时想，伙计，我只有 30,000 名粉丝，那是很多年前的事了，我以为我是一个相当大的人物，哦天啊，也许我应该......

And I was like, oh God, don't do it, because I know when I'm doing it, then I'll be thinking about it all the time and the attention residue will spoil my life.

我当时想，天哪，不要这样做，因为我知道当我这样做时，我会一直想着它，而残留的注意力会毁了我的生活。

Jake Knapp: So yeah, anyway, sorry, that's just a rant, but you should try it.

Jake Knapp：所以，是的，无论如何，抱歉，这只是一个咆哮，但你应该尝试一下。

The distraction-free phone thing is just worth trying, if you can take off everything, if not just try taking off the thing that's your kryptonite.

如果你能脱掉所有东西，那么无干扰的手机就值得尝试，如果不能的话，只是尝试脱掉你的氪石。

What's the thing that is the hardest for you to resist, sucks your attention the most, makes you feel not good?

什么事情最让你难以抗拒，最吸引你的注意力，让你感觉不好？

Take it off for, try it for a day, or try it for two hours, just to feel that feeling.

脱下来，尝试一天，或者尝试两个小时，只是为了感受那种感觉。

And then once you've felt the feeling you'll always know, I could release that, and I think that's powerful.

一旦你感受到了你永远知道的感觉，我就可以释放它，我认为这很强大。

Lenny: And I think when you delete it, it's important to know nothing's being deleted when you're deleting the app, you can reinstall it, you log in, it's all the same.

Lenny：我认为当你删除它时，重要的是要知道当你删除应用程序时没有删除任何内容，你可以重新安装它，你登录，一切都是一样的。

Jake Knapp: It's all the same, that's an important point.

Jake Knapp：都是一样的，这是很重要的一点。

They make it sound like, oh my God, this is a big deal.

他们听起来就像是，天哪，这是一件大事。

It's not.

它不是。

Lenny: Yeah, just have to remember your password or Google auth, or whatever you're using.

莱尼：是的，只需记住您的密码或 Google 身份验证，或您正在使用的任何内容即可。

This metaphor of The Lord of the Rings and the ring is so good for how it feels to just say, I'm just going to check Twitter, what's the problem, I'm just going to check it again, I'll just check it, check it.

《指环王》和戒指的这个比喻非常好，它的感觉非常好，就像说，我只是要检查推特，有什么问题，我只是要再检查一次，我只是检查它，检查它。

That's so good.

那太好了。

And then in Lord of the Rings, the way they resist the ring is they hide it, they put it somewhere else, they give it to Frodo to take it, right?

然后在《指环王》中，他们抵抗戒指的方式就是把它藏起来，把它放在其他地方，然后把它交给弗罗多，让他拿走，对吗？

That's the same solution, it's just like, I can't get access to it, it's over there.

这是相同的解决方案，就像，我无法访问它，它就在那里。

Jake Knapp: Right, right.

杰克·纳普：对，对。

Yeah, you got to be like Gandalf.

是的，你必须像甘道夫一样。

Even if that ring would do great things for you, you got to give it to Frodo for a while, maybe show up at the end with an eagle.

即使那枚戒指对你有很大帮助，你也得把它交给弗罗多一段时间，也许最后会带着一只鹰出现。

Lenny: Just too eerie, yeah, yeah, the eagle.

莱尼：太怪异了，是的，是的，老鹰。

Lenny: Yeah, oh man.

莱尼：是啊，天哪。

So the key tips here are find the apps that are sucking your attention, could be Twitter, could be LinkedIn, could be your email, and delete them and/or log out of them.

因此，这里的关键提示是找到吸引您注意力的应用程序，可能是 Twitter，可能是 LinkedIn，可能是您的电子邮件，然后删除它们和/或注销它们。

What else?

还有什么？

John Zeratsky: There's a few tactics that Jake and I both use that are related to TV, watching TV, and a really simple one, which is also kind of a luxury one, but I think there are ways to do it that are pretty universal, is just not having a TV in your main living space.

约翰·泽拉茨基：杰克和我都使用了一些与电视、看电视有关的策略，其中一个非常简单，这也是一种奢侈的策略，但我认为有一些非常通用的方法，就是在你的主要生活空间中不要有电视。

Again, not having the default be like, I'm home, the TV is on, what are we watching?

再说一次，不要有默认的情况，比如我在家，电视开着，我们在看什么？

And so for me and my wife, that's always been the TV is just in a different room.

因此，对于我和我的妻子来说，电视一直都在不同的房间里。

And Jake, do you use a projector where if you want to watch something you have to get it out, set it up, and make a decision to watch something?

杰克，你是否使用投影仪，如果你想看什么东西，你必须把它拿出来，设置好，然后决定看什么东西？

Jake Knapp: Yeah, so it's a bit of a project.

Jake Knapp：是的，所以这是一个项目。

And it doesn't take that long, but you definitely are not just click, and you don't see it when it's not set up.

而且用不了那么长的时间，但是你绝对不是随便点击一下，没设置好就看不到的。

So we have a projection screen that's all folded up in the corner, and the projector's in a cabinet, so you got to get it out and get a chair and put it on there.

所以我们有一个投影屏幕，它全部折叠在角落里，而投影仪在一个柜子里，所以你必须把它拿出来，拿一把椅子放在那里。

If you're motivated enough you can do it, but it takes a few minutes.

如果您有足够的动力，您可以做到，但这需要几分钟。

Lenny: You need an old-timey camera that you have to wind.

莱尼：你需要一台需要上发条的老式相机。

John Zeratsky: Yeah, right.

约翰·泽拉茨基：是的，没错。

Another one that's really helpful for me that actually is sort of a bridge is the laser section and the energized section, because it relates to sleep, is I don't keep my phone in the bedroom.

另一个对我真正有帮助的部分，实际上是一座桥梁，是激光部分和通电部分，因为它与睡眠有关，所以我不会把手机放在卧室里。

The phone doesn't come in the bedroom.

卧室里没有电话。

And not only that, the place where it charges, the MagSafe little charging place for it, is downstairs.

不仅如此，它充电的地方，MagSafe 的小充电处，就在楼下。

It's on a different floor, it's in the kitchen.

它在不同的楼层，在厨房里。

So when I put that there at the end of the night and I go upstairs, I might still be awake for an hour, I might read, I might get ready for bed, all those things, but the phone is a way to make sure that the last thing I do each day is not on my phone.

因此，当我在晚上把它放在那里并上楼时，我可能还会醒一个小时，我可能会读书，我可能会准备睡觉，所有这些事情，但手机是一种确保我每天做的最后一件事不是在手机上的一种方式。

That's super helpful to me, and I think there's a bunch of ways, whether it's in a drawer or in a cabinet, there's a bunch of ways you can implement that tactic that I think could make a big difference.

这对我来说非常有帮助，我认为有很多方法，无论是在抽屉里还是在柜子里，都有很多方法可以实施我认为可以产生很大影响的策略。

Lenny: My wife and I have been talking about that actually, but the issue is to watch our kid with the Nanit app we need our phone.

莱尼：实际上，我和妻子一直在谈论这个问题，但问题是用我们需要手机的 Nanit 应用程序来观察我们的孩子。

I know that you can get other devices that aren't on the phone, but we just like the Nanit, and so we've stuck with that.

我知道您可以购买手机上没有的其他设备，但我们就是喜欢 Nanit，所以我们一直坚持这样做。

John Zeratsky: Yeah, one tactic that's related to that that a lot of people have told us they've had success with, and not specifically with the Nanit app, but some people have said, "Oh, I can't uninstall those apps because," Twitter, LinkedIn, whatever, "because I do social media for my work.

约翰·泽拉茨基（John Zeratsky）：是的，这是一种与很多人告诉我们他们已经取得成功的策略相关的策略，尤其是 Nanit 应用程序，但有些人说，“哦，我无法卸载这些应用程序，因为，” Twitter、LinkedIn 等等，“因为我为工作而使用社交媒体。

Literally my job is I do marketing at the company, I have to be on social media." So what some people will do is they'll have a separate device.

从字面上看，我的工作是在公司做营销，我必须在社交媒体上工作。”所以有些人会做的是他们会拥有一个单独的设备。

So it's almost like the old days of your personal phone and your work phone, they'll just have a work device, like a work iPad, that those apps are only there, and when they're working they're on it, when they're not working they put it away.

所以这几乎就像过去的个人手机和工作手机一样，他们只有一个工作设备，比如工作 iPad，这些应用程序只在那里，当他们工作时，他们会使用它，当他们不工作时，他们会把它收起来。

So you could have another device that's the Nanit device and that's all it does and it's in a nice little stand by the bed, that can create some separation as well.

所以你可以有另一个设备，那就是 Nanit 设备，这就是它的全部功能，它位于床边一个漂亮的小支架上，也可以产生一些分离。

Lenny: That's a great idea.

莱尼：这是个好主意。

I think there's a company, I think it was Arianna Huffington made a thing where it's a little bed for your phone, where you put it somewhere in the living room and you put it to bed and you charge it there and it's outside your room.

我想有一家公司，我想是 Arianna Huffington 做了一个东西，它是你手机的小床，你把它放在客厅的某个地方，你把它放在床上，你在那里充电，它就在你的房间外面。

John Zeratsky: Yeah.

约翰·泽拉茨基：是的。

There's a company, I can't think of the name right now, but I can look it up and send it to you, there's a company that makes a cool box that not only you put your phone in, it charges, but it has some sort of way of, it interacts with the phone, it puts it into Do Not Disturb, or there's some cool integration that it does.

有一家公司，我现在想不出名字，但我可以查一下，然后发送给你，有一家公司制造了一个很酷的盒子，你不仅可以把手机放进去，它可以充电，而且它有某种方式，它可以与手机交互，将其放入“请勿打扰”模式，或者它可以进行一些很酷的集成。

So yeah, those things are a little bit gimmicky, but if it helps you create that default, I think it's worth it.

所以，是的，这些东西有点花哨，但如果它可以帮助您创建默认值，我认为这是值得的。

Lenny: Here's the trick my wife wanted to share with you guys as she was reading the book, she's like, "Tell them about this thing that we've been doing," which is with TikTok.

莱尼：这是我妻子在读这本书时想与大家分享的技巧，她就像是，“告诉他们我们一直在做的事情”，这是与 TikTok 相关的事情。

She doesn't install the app, and she basically relies on me to send her TikTok videos I like to her account, which she then checks on my phone.

她没有安装该应用程序，她基本上依靠我将我喜欢的 TikTok 视频发送到她的帐户，然后她在我的手机上查看。

Lenny: Yeah, yeah, I'm holding the TikTok, my precious.

莱尼：是的，是的，我拿着 TikTok，我的宝贝。

And so the trick there, there's two wins, one is she only sees the best stuff.

所以这里的诀窍是，有两个胜利，一是她只看到最好的东西。

She respects my taste of videos to watch.

她尊重我观看视频的品味。

And then two is I'm always like, "Give me my phone back," and so there's limited time where she can watch them, and that keeps her from getting addicted to TikTok.

第二个是我总是说，“把我的手机还给我”，所以她可以观看它们的时间有限，这可以防止她对 TikTok 上瘾。

John Zeratsky: Yeah.

约翰·泽拉茨基：是的。

My wife and I have a similar dynamic, but in reverse and with news.

我和我的妻子也有类似的动态，但在新闻方面却相反。

I spend very little time reading the news, and I don't have any news apps on my phone, but my wife's pretty into the news.

我花很少的时间阅读新闻，而且我的手机上没有任何新闻应用程序，但我的妻子很喜欢新闻。

She has a healthcare background and she studied journalism in school, so she loves particularly those two topics in the intersection of those two.

她有医疗保健背景，在学校学习新闻学，所以她特别喜欢这两个主题的交叉点。

And so she gives me a news digest.

所以她给了我一份新闻摘要。

When we're chatting at the end of the day, or when we're doing something together, she'll just, it's not structured, it's not some official thing, but she just shares what she was reading about that day.

当我们在一天结束时聊天，或者当我们一起做某事时，她只是说，这不是结构化的，不是官方的事情，但她只是分享她那天读到的内容。

It's nice, it gives us something to talk about, I think it suits both of our styles and our preferences.

这很好，它给了我们一些可以谈论的东西，我认为它适合我们的风格和偏好。

It's good for her, it's good for me, so it's fun to think about how you can implement some of these ideas in a relationship as well.

这对她有好处，对我也有好处，所以思考如何在一段关系中实施其中一些想法也很有趣。

Lenny: How do I subscribe to this feed of your wife sharing the news every day?

莱尼：我如何订阅你妻子每天分享新闻的动态？

It sounds like a great podcast we all need.

这听起来像是我们都需要的很棒的播客。

Jake Knapp: Really, really good stuff, or really important stuff, will find us.

Jake Knapp：真正非常好的东西，或者非常重要的东西，会找到我们。

I think there is, part of the busy bandwagon, or part of the infinity pools thing, is this feeling inside that I'm responsible for staying up to date with the most important news in the world, or the most important news in my inbox, or my company or my team, work, and I'm responsible also for getting the very best of entertainment that's out at this moment that's the most topical and the funniest, or the most interesting, whatever, at this moment.

我认为，忙碌的潮流的一部分，或者无边际泳池的一部分，是一种内心的感觉，我有责任了解世界上最重要的新闻，或者我的收件箱中最重要的新闻，或者我的公司或我的团队，工作，我也有责任获得此时此刻最热门、最有趣或最有趣的娱乐节目。

Jake Knapp: And it's okay to let go of that and, the good stuff, it'll come to you.

杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：放弃它是可以的，好东西，它会来找你的。

People will share it with you or you'll hear about it.

人们会与您分享它，或者您会听说它。

If it's a really big news story, you'll hear about it eventually.

如果这是一个非常重大的新闻报道，您最终会听到的。

If it's going to affect you, actually, you'll hear about it.

事实上，如果它会影响你，你就会听到它。

And with most news, and most entertainment, we don't play a role, it's hard to admit, but we don't actually play a role in what happens, and so the idea that we're responsible for being on it all the time, that's a job that we can quit, or at least take a sabbatical from.

对于大多数新闻和大多数娱乐节目来说，我们并没有发挥任何作用，这很难承认，但我们实际上并没有在所发生的事情中发挥作用，所以我们有责任一直参与其中的想法，这是我们可以辞去的工作，或者至少可以休假。

Lenny: So Tim Ferriss talked about this in The 4-Hour Workweek, is way back in the day is just like, I wait for people to tell me what I need to know, exactly what John just shared before this, and I find this with, so first of all you find that when you delete Twitter, LinkedIn, you go week without it, and nothing is any different.

莱尼：蒂姆·费里斯在《每周工作 4 小时》中谈到了这一点，早在那天，我就等着人们告诉我我需要知道什么，约翰之前分享的是什么，我发现了这一点，所以首先你会发现，当你删除 Twitter、LinkedIn 时，你一周就没有它们了，一切都没有什么不同。

You still know everything you need to know, your job, everything's going great.

你仍然知道你需要知道的一切，你的工作，一切都很顺利。

You missed a bunch of stuff that had no impact on your life.

你错过了很多对你的生活没有影响的事情。

And so I think doing that exercise helps you realize that and I don't need to be on Twitter all the time.

所以我认为做这个练习可以帮助你认识到这一点，而且我不需要一直在推特上。

Lenny: And not to get political, but with news about Trump, there's always these headlines, "Trump, look what he did in this lawsuit today, it's over." I just feel like there's so many posts about all these things Trump is doing every day, and none of them, nothing happens.

莱尼：不是为了政治化，而是关于特朗普的新闻，总是有这样的头条新闻，“特朗普，看看他今天在这场诉讼中做了什么，一切都结束了。”我只是觉得有很多关于特朗普每天所做的事情的帖子，但没有一个，什么也没有发生。

It's just the same thing, just keeps going.

这只是同样的事情，只是继续下去。

If something actually happened there I would hear it from a lot of people, the New York Times would send me a big push.

如果那里真的发生了什么事，我会从很多人那里听到，《纽约时报》会给我很大的推动力。

So it's like, I don't need to know all these things he's doing every day.

所以就像，我不需要知道他每天所做的所有这些事情。

Jake Knapp: Well, it doesn't matter what your political affiliation is, that is true.

杰克·纳普：嗯，无论你的政治立场是什么，这是事实。

Trump is always going to be in the news, and it's always going to, that's the constant, that's the third constant, death, taxes, and Trump will be in the news.

特朗普总是会出现在新闻中，而且总是会出现，这是不变的，这是第三个不变的，死亡，税收，特朗普将出现在新闻中。

John Zeratsky: A related tactic that I've been doing for a long time is my main source of news is the Economist magazine, which is far too highbrow for what I need, but the main feature of it is that it's weekly, because at the end of the week, the zillion stories about Trump, or whatever, if there was something of consequence, it gets distilled into this really good summary.

约翰·泽拉茨基（John Zeratsky）：我长期以来一直在做的一个相关策略是，我的主要新闻来源是《经济学人》杂志，这对于我的需要来说太曲高和寡了，但它的主要特点是它是每周的，因为在周末，无数关于特朗普的故事，或者其他什么，如果有什么重要的事情，它会被提炼成一个非常好的总结。

Really, really good.

真的，真的很好。

The Economist has some of the best journalists in the world, they're just absolutely fantastic, and so not only does it have this really nice cadence of once a week, if something matters it's going to get rolled up there, it's going to get summarized.

《经济学人》拥有一些世界上最好的记者，他们非常棒，所以它不仅有每周一次的非常好的节奏，如果有什么重要的事情，它会被卷在那里，它会得到总结。

And so that's one of my most durable habits related to these tactics, is reading the news once a week, reading the Economist.

因此，这是我与这些策略相关的最持久的习惯之一，就是每周阅读一次新闻，阅读《经济学人》。

It fits my brain, it fits my life rhythm really well.

它非常适合我的大脑，非常适合我的生活节奏。

Lenny: Yeah, it's the opposite of Twitter, basically.

Lenny：是的，基本上它与 Twitter 相反。

Lenny: So yeah, let's hear a couple more tactics and then let's touch on the other two parts of this framework.

莱尼：所以，是的，让我们听听更多的策略，然后让我们讨论这个框架的其他两个部分。

Jake Knapp: Well, first a pairing, and then one more.

杰克·纳普：嗯，首先是一对，然后是一对。

The pairing is reset expectations and slow your inbox.

配对会重置期望并减慢您的收件箱速度。

So these are two tactics related mostly to the email and messaging.

因此，这是两种主要与电子邮件和消息传递相关的策略。

So resetting expectations is just about having maybe a conversation with people you work with, but it can be as simple as a signature in your email.

因此，重新设定期望可能只是与同事进行一次对话，但也可以像在电子邮件中签名一样简单。

And so one great example of this is a signature that says, I'm checking email two times a day as an experiment to improve my focus, or I'm checking email once or twice a day, you decide how spicy you want to get with this option, because I'm working on an important project.

一个很好的例子就是一个签名，上面写着，我每天检查电子邮件两次，作为提高注意力的实验，或者我每天检查电子邮件一次或两次，你可以决定这个选项有多辣，因为我正在做一个重要的项目。

And just a simple line that people will see passively as you send emails that will reset their expectations of how quickly you'll respond.

当您发送电子邮件时，人们会被动地看到一句简单的台词，这将重置他们对您回复速度的期望。

And if you like you can say, I'm checking email once a day because I'm working on a big project, you can text me if it's urgent.

如果您愿意，您可以说，我每天查看一次电子邮件，因为我正在开展一个大项目，如果紧急，您可以给我发短信。

Feel free to text me, you can invite people to do so.

请随时给我发短信，您可以邀请其他人这样做。

Jake Knapp: But that very act of just putting it in there, you can also do it as an out of office autoresponder, so just like, hey, instead of I'm actually out of the office like, hey, I'm going to be slow to respond to email because I'm working on an important project.

Jake Knapp：但是，只是将其放在那里的行为，您也可以将其作为外出自动回复器来执行，所以就像，嘿，而不是我实际上不在办公室，就像，嘿，我回复电子邮件的速度会很慢，因为我正在处理一个重要的项目。

That because is really important, and we talk in the book about this, a funny study about the power of because and this case where people would make up bogus excuses, but they'd say, "Because to cut a line," it's an old study, they're making photocopies, but they would cut the line and say, "I need to cut the line because I need to make copies." And just saying because dramatically boosted the percentage of the time that a person would let them cut the line.

因为非常重要，我们在书中讨论了这一点，这是一项关于“因为”的力量的有趣研究，在这种情况下，人们会编造虚假的借口，但他们会说，“因为要剪断一条线，”这是一项古老的研究，他们正在复印，但他们会剪断线并说，“我需要剪断线，因为我需要复印。”只是说因为大大增加了人们让他们插队的时间百分比。

We're suckers for explanations, all of us.

我们所有人都热衷于解释。

So if you say because people will feel better, and you can feel better about saying it.

所以如果你说因为人们会感觉更好，那么你说出来也会感觉更好。

Jake Knapp: But this idea that you're just going to put up a placard, basically, that says, hey, I'm slow to respond because I'm working on a project, and maybe give people an escalation path, or don't, that's a huge deal.

杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：但是这个想法是，你只是要张贴标语牌，基本上就是说，嘿，我的反应很慢，因为我正在做一个项目，也许会给人们一个升级路径，或者不，这是一件大事。

And it seems like it would be a huge deal because it changes others expectations, and that is true.

这似乎是一件大事，因为它改变了其他人的期望，这是事实。

But the real power of it is in changing our own expectations about what we are going to do and what we are expected to do.

但它的真正力量在于改变我们对我们将要做什么和我们被期望做什么的期望。

Most of the stress comes internally, from our feeling that if we don't get back to people right away, we're not enough, we're not measuring up, we feel some kind of shame or guilt about not doing it and not being fast and not being responsive.

大多数压力来自内部，来自我们的感觉，如果我们不立即回复人们，我们就不够，我们没有达到标准，我们会因为没有这样做、不快速、不反应而感到某种羞耻或内疚。

And so doing this statement is just about renegotiating with ourselves.

所以说这个声明只是与我们自己重新谈判。

Jake Knapp: The other one is to slow down your inbox.

Jake Knapp：另一个是放慢收件箱的速度。

This is a simple one, if you start to do that, if you start to just check your email once or twice a day, or even less frequently, or even if you check it a little bit more frequently but you aren't responding to emails, you don't hold yourself accountable to this idea of an empty inbox, then the whole loop slows down.

这是一个简单的问题，如果你开始这样做，如果你开始每天检查一次或两次电子邮件，甚至更少的频率，或者即使你检查的频率更高一点，但你没有回复电子邮件，你不让自己对空收件箱的想法负责，那么整个循环就会减慢。

If you respond to emails really fast, you respond to messages really fast, people respond back to you and then there's more to respond to.

如果您回复电子邮件的速度非常快，那么您回复消息的速度也非常快，人们也会回复您，然后还有更多需要回复的内容。

And if you slow down that little hamster wheel, it slows down.

如果你减慢那个小仓鼠轮子的速度，它就会减慢。

And so that's powerful too.

所以这也很强大。

So those two around email I think can be really helpful, they help me with this, my default feeling about email and messaging and everything is I should be as responsive as possible, and I have to constantly renegotiate that with myself, and those are ways I do it.

因此，我认为围绕电子邮件的那两个人真的很有帮助，他们帮助我解决了这个问题，我对电子邮件和消息传递的默认感觉是我应该尽可能做出响应，我必须不断地与自己重新协商，这些就是我这样做的方式。

Jake Knapp: This other one that's pretty extreme, that I only just tried for the first time, it's in the book but I hadn't actually tried it, but this was a reader of our blog told us about this.

Jake Knapp：另一个非常极端，我只是第一次尝试，它在书中，但我没有真正尝试过，但这是我们博客的读者告诉我们的。

Her name is Krissa, I think she allowed us to use her first name but not her last name.

她的名字叫 Krissa，我想她允许我们使用她的名字，但不允许使用她的姓氏。

So Krissa, if you're listening, shout out to you, this turned out to be a great tactic, but it's to cancel the internet.

所以，Krissa，如果你在听的话，请大声喊出来，事实证明这是一个很好的策略，但它是为了取消互联网。

And she had canceled the internet at home, which is wild.

她还取消了家里的互联网，这很疯狂。

But what I did was I have an office, a very small office in this small town here where I live, and-

但我所做的是我有一个办公室，一个非常小的办公室，在我居住的这个小镇上，而且——

Jake Knapp: Small office in this small town here where I live and I canceled the internet there so that I could, when I went there, all I can do are tasks that you can't do with the internet, which is a lot.

Jake Knapp：我居住的这个小镇上有一个小办公室，我取消了那里的互联网，这样当我去那里时，我所能做的就是你无法通过互联网完成的任务，这是很多。

I mean, you can use a lot of apps in offline mode and it's a great place for me to write.

我的意思是，你可以在离线模式下使用很多应用程序，这对我来说是一个写作的好地方。

It's a great place for me to do focus work, design something, presentation, but any kind of focused thinking, reading, writing can happen there and now the whole feeling of stepping into that room where I cannot access the internet is insane.

对于我来说，这是一个专注工作、设计东西、演示的好地方，但是任何类型的专注思考、阅读、写作都可以在那里发生，现在走进那个我无法访问互联网的房间的整个感觉是疯狂的。

Jake Knapp: To create this kind of a thing at home, you can do things like put a timer on your internet.

Jake Knapp：要在家里创建这种东西，你可以做一些事情，比如在互联网上设置一个计时器。

You can actually buy one of those vacation timers, plug it into the wall, plug your router into that, and it will actually switch your internet off at a certain hour or hours.

实际上，您可以购买其中一个假期计时器，将其插入墙壁，将路由器插入其中，它实际上会在某个或几个小时关闭您的互联网。

There's also software that'll let you do this selectively, but the big notion of just having there be a time when you are off and it's a fairly significant pain to get back on again, it's more than just clicking wifi on, wifi off.

还有一些软件可以让你有选择地执行此操作，但最重要的是，当你关闭时，再次重新打开会非常痛苦，这不仅仅是点击 wifi 打开、关闭 wifi 那么简单。

I find for me that's not enough of a speed bump.

我发现对我来说这还不够。

It's pretty powerful.

它非常强大。

Lenny: Just the way you're describing the feeling of walking into an office that has no internet, I totally feel that.

莱尼：就像你描述的走进没有互联网的办公室的感觉一样，我完全有这种感觉。

Just imagine, just like, "I have no internet here.

想象一下，就像“我这里没有互联网。

I could do so many things.

我可以做很多事情。

I could read."

我能读书。”

Jake Knapp: It might be a coffee shop where you don't find out what the wifi password is and there's just this amazing, amazing feeling.

Jake Knapp：这可能是一家咖啡店，你不知道 wifi 密码是什么，但会有一种令人惊奇、令人惊奇的感觉。

Maybe it's just you go to a park where there's no wifi, just whatever it might be, finding a place where you can't, you just can't get that stuff.

也许只是你去了一个没有无线网络的公园，不管它是什么，找到了一个你不能的地方，你就是无法获得那些东西。

Leave your phone at home if you can't bear to delete all the apps.

如果您无法忍受删除所有应用程序，请将手机留在家里。

It's so great.

太棒了。

It's so great.

太棒了。

And then you're not fighting the battle.

然后你就不再参加战斗了。

Jake Knapp: A lot of this stuff, there's a visualization I think of where I've got the highlight in front of me.

Jake Knapp：很多这样的东西，我认为我面前有一个可视化的亮点。

It's right there.

它就在那里。

This thing I can see that I want to do, but it's like five feet away or 10 feet away, and right next to me just kind of vibrating are all of the...

我可以看到我想做的这件事，但距离大约五英尺或十英尺远，而且就在我旁边，只是有点振动……

You can imagine all the app logos, they're just kind of vibrating right around my head.

你可以想象所有的应用程序徽标，它们就在我的脑海中振动。

Jake Knapp: They're right there and touching any one of them, it's like they're little pieces of candy.

杰克·纳普：它们就在那里，触摸它们中的任何一个，就像它们是一小块糖果一样。

It's all going to feel good.

一切都会感觉很好。

There's this really good meal, five to 10 feet away is this great sandwich, but these little pieces of candy are right in my face and it's going to be hard to resist just popping a little Sour Patch Kid or Laffy Taffy in my mouth, but if I could push them away, if I can just push them far enough away so that there is far away or farther away than the sandwich, I'm going to eat the sandwich.

这是一顿​​非常美味的饭菜，五到十英尺外就是这个很棒的三明治，但是这些小块糖果就在我的脸上，很难抗拒把一点酸小孩子或拉菲太妃糖放进嘴里，但如果我能把它们推开，如果我能把它们推得足够远，这样就比三明治更远或更远了，我就会吃掉三明治。

And Mike, if that's what you do basically with these barriers to these distractions, then you can get into laser mode and it's easy.

迈克，如果你基本上就是这样做的，以消除这些干扰，那么你就可以进入激光模式，这很容易。

You want to.

你想要。

Once there's space, you'll want to do the thing that's most important.

一旦有空间，您就会想做最重要的事情。

It's just it's hard because the candy is right in our face.

只是这很难，因为糖果就在我们面前。

Lenny: Such a good metaphor.

莱尼：这个比喻很好。

You also have this metaphor of Odysseus sailing past the sirens.

你也可以看到奥德修斯驶过塞壬的比喻。

If folks know that story where there was a siren, I don't know, cliff thing where he's just sailing.

如果人们知道那个有海妖的故事，我不知道，他只是在航行的悬崖上。

Jake Knapp: I know well, in eighth grade I played Odysseus in school play, so I can tell you all about it.

杰克·纳普：我很清楚，八年级时我在学校戏剧中扮演奥德修斯，所以我可以告诉你一切。

Lenny: Man, what a character to play.

莱尼：伙计，扮演的角色真棒。

Yeah.

是的。

And in that story, he wanted to experience these sirens who nobody could resist, but he forced his sailors to tie him to the ship and not allow him to do anything, even though he's like, "Let me go.

在那个故事中，他想体验这些无人能抗拒的海妖，但他强迫水手把他绑在船上，不让他做任何事，尽管他说，“放我走。

I need to go there." Because everyone crashed into the sirens.

我需要去那里。”因为每个人都撞上了警报器。

Anyway, I'm doing a bad job explaining this story, but I think it just comes back to the same point again and again that you can't rely on your willpower to not go towards these vibrating candies all around you that you need to set up these systems.

不管怎样，我在解释这个故事方面做得很糟糕，但我认为它一次又一次地回到同一点，你不能依靠你的意志力不去接近你周围的这些振动糖果，你需要建立这些系统。

Jake Knapp: I think there's this notion that we will use willpower maybe comes from the fact that some people can, maybe some people are just using willpower or they're on Twitter, they're on Instagram, they're on TikTok, they're on Facebook, they're doing all these things, and they're also functioning just fine, or at least what we see from the outside is just fine.

杰克·纳普：我认为我们会使用意志力的想法可能来自于这样一个事实：有些人可以，也许有些人只是使用意志力，或者他们在Twitter上，他们在Instagram上，他们在TikTok上，他们在Facebook上，他们正在做所有这些事情，而且他们也运作得很好，或者至少我们从外面看到的很好。

But maybe internally too, it's fine.

但也许在内部也很好。

Jake Knapp: It just seems that everybody I actually talk to and certainly my personal experiences, all that stuff makes me feel bad and actually undercuts my ability to do the things that are meaningful.

杰克·纳普：似乎我真正交谈过的每个人，当然还有我的个人经历，所有这些东西都让我感觉很糟糕，实际上削弱了我做有意义的事情的能力。

The meaningful contributions I can make through my work or through my life, whatever.

我可以通过工作或生活等方式做出有意义的贡献。

They're all undermined and undercut by the bad feelings and the distraction that come from all of social media, all of the news and almost all of my email.

它们都被来自所有社交媒体、所有新闻和几乎所有电子邮件的不良情绪和干扰所破坏和削弱。

And so if that's true for anybody, if it's even remotely true for us, we have to just radically rethink what we're doing.

因此，如果这对任何人来说都是如此，如果对我们来说甚至有一点点如此，我们就必须从根本上重新思考我们正在做的事情。

Jake Knapp: This thing, I think we basically are steered toward becoming reaction machines and this notion of, "I'm going to have an empty inbox.

杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：我认为，这件事我们基本上会成为反应机器，并且会产生这样的概念：“我的收件箱将是空的。

I'm going to do every task.

我会做好每一项任务。

I'm going to be a fast responder, I'm going to be in every meeting.

我将成为一名快速响应者，我将参加每次会议。

I'm going to do that because I want to help other people, and that's the way it works." I think this desire to be helpful is a big driver of it.

我这样做是因为我想帮助其他人，这就是它的运作方式。”我认为这种乐于助人的愿望是它的一个重要驱动力。

I think we want to alleviate our stress and other people's stress, and that seems like the right way to do it.

我认为我们想要减轻自己和他人的压力，这似乎是正确的方法。

It's candy.

这是糖果。

Some of the stuff is candy and easy.

有些东西很糖果而且很简单。

Jake Knapp: We also see this modeled by people in power, so like CEOs and bosses, it works for them because they're applying their influence through being constantly reactive and being in meetings all the time.

杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：我们也看到这种模式是由掌权者效仿的，比如首席执行官和老板，这对他们来说很有效，因为他们通过不断的反应和一直参加会议来施加影响力。

That's just how they do what they do.

这就是他们做事的方式。

That's how they apply their influence.

这就是他们运用影响力的方式。

But even for them, I think it has limits as a way to apply influence.

但即使对他们来说，我认为这种施加影响力的方式也有局限性。

At the bare minimum for the rest of us.

对于我们其他人来说是最低限度的。

And for those of us who again, I think is the vast, vast majority for whom all of these things create problems and we're not able to easily willpower and self-esteem manage all this stuff, if we're a reaction machine, we're not doing meaningful work, no Project A's and we're not really alive as humans.

对于我们这些人来说，我认为是绝大多数人，所有这些事情都会给他们带来问题，我们无法轻松地用意志力和自尊来管理所有这些东西，如果我们是一台反应机器，我们就没有做有意义的工作，没有 A 项目，我们也不是真正作为人类活着。

We're just chat bots.

我们只是聊天机器人。

So it's worth experimenting if you don't want to live your life out as a chatbot.

因此，如果您不想过着聊天机器人的生活，那么值得尝试一下。

Lenny: I think the point you made there around the feeling is just a really important point that even if you feel really productive enough and you're getting things done, is if you're feeling bad, it's still an important thing to focus on.

莱尼：我认为你围绕感觉提出的观点非常重要，即使你感觉自己确实足够高效并且正在把事情做好，如果你感觉不好，它仍然是一件需要关注的重要事情。

This idea of, are you spending time on things you want to spend time on?

这个想法是，你是否把时间花在你想花时间的事情上？

You also reminded me of this app I'll mention briefly that I think you guys will love, I don't know if you've heard of this.

你还让我想起了这个应用程序，我简单提一下，我想你们会喜欢的，我不知道你是否听说过这个。

It's called mailmanhq.com.

它的名称是mailmanhq.com。

It shuts off your Gmail for periods of time.

它会关闭您的 Gmail 一段时间。

So you could say, "Only allow my email through at these times of day." And so instead of email whatever, it's just like you can batch your release of email.

因此，您可以说：“仅在一天中的这些时间允许我的电子邮件通过。”因此，您可以批量发布电子邮件，而不是发送任何电子邮件。

Jake Knapp: Okay, I'm writing that down right now.

杰克·纳普：好的，我现在就把它写下来。

Lenny: Yeah, I go on and off it because sometimes I just want on an email, but it makes a big difference.

莱尼：是的，我会断断续续地这样做，因为有时我只想收到一封电子邮件，但这有很大的不同。

It's wild how just not even knowing your email makes a big difference.

甚至不知道你的电子邮件也会产生很大的影响，这真是太疯狂了。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Let's touch on the last two parts of this framework, energize and reflect, and then let's spend a little time on Sprint for people to get a sense of what this method is all about.

让我们来谈谈这个框架的最后两个部分，激励和反思，然后让我们花一点时间在 Sprint 上，让人们了解这个方法的全部内容。

For folks that haven't read the book.

给没读过这本书的人。

John Zeratsky: So to replay the system overall highlight is about the thing you want to make time for today.

John Zeratsky：因此，重播系统整体亮点是您今天想要腾出时间的事情。

The most important thing today, laser is about creating barriers to distraction so that you have much your energy or as much of your attention as possible to focus on your highlight on that one thing.

今天最重要的事情是，激光是为了创造障碍，防止分心，这样你就有足够的精力或尽可能多的注意力来专注于你对那一件事的关注。

Energize is sort of like a booster to laser.

Energize 有点像激光的助推器。

John Zeratsky: It's sort of like the big idea is that our brains and bodies are connected and our ability to pay attention and to focus and to do those things that we care about only works when we are well and we have slept, we have eaten well, we have exercised, we have talked to other people the right amount, not too much, not too little and so we put this as part of the make time framework because we don't think you should go crazy, try a million biohacker type of things, but we do think it's worth applying this same philosophy of pay attention to what's working, what's not, have a system, try some new things, pay attention to those things, run these experiments.

约翰·泽拉茨基（John Zeratsky）：这有点像我们的大脑和身体是相连的，我们集中注意力和做那些我们关心的事情的能力只有在我们睡得好，我们吃得好，我们锻炼过，我们与其他人进行了适量的交谈，而不是太多，不是太少的时候才有效，所以我们把它作为制作时间框架的一部分，因为我们认为你不应该发疯，尝试一百万个生物黑客类型的事情，但我们我确实认为值得应用同样的哲学，即关注什么有效，什么无效，拥有一个系统，尝试一些新事物，关注那些事情，进行这些实验。

We think it's worth doing that for your health, for your energy as well, because it really does make a difference.

我们认为为了您的健康和精力，这样做是值得的，因为它确实会带来改变。

Lenny: Maybe share one or two tips there real quick for people to energize to create a little more energy during their day?

莱尼：也许可以分享一两个让人们在一天中精力充沛的小窍门？

John Zeratsky: In the year since we wrote the book and as my life has just continued to change and I've gotten a little bit older, I've realized that sleep is probably the single most important thing.

约翰·泽拉茨基（John Zeratsky）：自从我们写这本书以来，随着我的生活不断发生变化，而且我年纪也变大了，我意识到睡眠可能是最重要的事情。

I mentioned earlier, not having my phone in the bedroom, no TV in the bedroom, hopefully that goes without saying, but just being able to really construct an environment that allows me to sleep.

我之前提到过，卧室里没有手机，卧室里没有电视，希望这是不言而喻的，但只是能够真正构建一个让我睡觉的环境。

I started wearing an eye mask recently.

我最近开始戴眼罩。

John Zeratsky: Yeah, really helps me fall asleep and stay asleep and then the other thing is exercise is a big source of energy for me, but I realized that I was making excuses about why I didn't need to or shouldn't exercise in any given day.

约翰·泽拉茨基：是的，确实可以帮助我入睡并保持睡眠状态，另一件事是锻炼对我来说是一个重要的能量来源，但我意识到我正在为为什么我不需要或不应该在任何一天锻炼而找借口。

So even though this is not what we recommended in the book specifically, I ended up signing on with a personal trainer so that I have accountability, I have a schedule, I have somebody who's thinking about what I need that's not just me and those two things have kind of been the pillars of how I build energy over the last few years.

因此，尽管这不是我们在书中具体推荐的，但我最终还是与一位私人教练签约，这样我就有了责任，我有一个时间表，我有一个人在思考我需要什么，而不仅仅是我，这两件事是我在过去几年里如何建立能量的支柱。

Lenny: I use this app called Future, I'm a investor, quick disclaimer, but it's basically a personal trainer through an app that's like a real person that helps you design a workout for you, and then they give you the workout on the app and you just follow the instructions and that's the thing that got you working out three times a week.

Lenny：我使用这个名为 Future 的应用程序，我是一名投资者，快速免责声明，但它基本上是一个私人教练，通过一个应用程序，就像一个真人一样，帮助你为你设计锻炼，然后他们在应用程序上给你锻炼，你只需按照说明操作，这就是让你每周锻炼 3 次的原因。

Lenny: Killing it.

莱尼：杀了它。

Okay.

好的。

And then within reflect, maybe just briefly talk about the importance there and then one thing people could do to reflect on how things are going.

然后在反思中，也许只是简单地谈谈那里的重要性，然后人们可以做一件事来反思事情的进展情况。

Jake Knapp: Reflect is just simply the act of looking back on the day and treating the day.

Jake Knapp：反思只是回顾这一天并对待这一天的行为。

It wasn't marble gravestone of your successes or failures, it's just a experiment that you ran.

它不是你的成功或失败的大理石墓碑，它只是你进行的一个实验。

What happened in the experiment?

实验中发生了什么？

Taking note of it in that lens, what did it look like?

记下那个镜头，它看起来像什么？

There's a template in our book that has some questions you can answer, but really it's pretty simple.

我们书中有一个模板，其中包含一些您可以回答的问题，但实际上非常简单。

Jake Knapp: If you write down your highlight in the morning or the night before, if you're draw it and you stick it somewhere visible, then at the end of the day you just look at it and just like, "Okay, did that happen or did that not happen?" If you stick it somewhere visible, you won't even have to do anything.

杰克·纳普：如果你在早上或前一天晚上写下你的亮点，如果你把它画出来，然后把它贴在可见的地方，那么在一天结束的时候，你只是看着它，然后想，“好吧，那是发生了还是没有发生？”如果你把它贴在可见的地方，你甚至不需要做任何事情。

You'll just come across it and you'll know if did that happen or not?

你只要遇到它，你就会知道这是否发生过？

So that's the simplest part of it is writing it down, sticking it will create a reflection loop for you.

所以最简单的部分就是把它写下来，坚持下去将为你创建一个反射循环。

Jake Knapp: Another thing that I think is quite powerful at the end of the day is to write down, keep a notebook by the side of the bed and write down one or two or three things that you are grateful for during the day, just like a simple gratitude journal.

Jake Knapp：我认为在一天结束时非常有效的另一件事是写下来，在床边放一个笔记本，写下一天中你感激的一两三件事，就像一本简单的感恩日记一样。

And you'll start, this keeps you in this frame of mind of what was cool today, what happened that was satisfying or joyful, what brought me joy and then if you start the day thinking about what you'd like to happen and then you look back and say, "What was great?" Your brain is just starting to look for those good things.

你会开始，这让你保持这样的心态：今天发生了什么很酷，发生了什么令人满意或快乐的事情，什么给我带来了快乐，然后如果你开始新的一天，思考你想要发生的事情，然后你回过头来说，“什么是伟大的？”你的大脑刚刚开始寻找那些好东西。

Look for those big highlights, and that's a great way to live your life day to day saying, "This is what I hope will happen.

寻找那些重大的亮点，这是你每天生活的好方法，说：“这就是我希望会发生的事情。

This is what did happen.

这就是发生的事情。

Now I'm more tuned into what it might happen tomorrow.

现在我更加了解明天可能发生的事情。

Oh, now I'm more tuned into what happened today." And again, and it's just a really nice loop.

哦，现在我对今天发生的事情更加了解了。”再说一次，这真是一个很好的循环。

So was there a connection between what you hoped would happen?

那么你希望发生的事情之间有联系吗？

Did you manage to do your highlight?

你成功完成你的亮点了吗？

If so, what helped you do it?

如果是这样，是什么帮助你做到了这一点？

What worked or didn't work?

什么有效或无效？

What made it hard?

是什么让事情变得困难？

It might be an energy thing that suggests a tweak to when you drink coffee or if you take a walk or whatever.

这可能是一种能量问题，建议你在喝咖啡或散步等时进行调整。

It might've been a focus thing.

这可能是一个焦点问题。

So maybe I'll try another barrier for this thing because that undercut me.

所以也许我会尝试另一个障碍，因为这削弱了我的能力。

Whatever it is, it's just basically, in summary, curiosity about your day instead of self-judgment about your day.

不管是什么，总而言之，这基本上只是对你的一天的好奇，而不是对你的一天的自我判断。

Lenny: I think we've covered Make Time and tons of depth if people want to practice these things, highly recommend getting the book.

莱尼：我认为我们已经涵盖了“创造时间”和大量的深度内容，如果人们想练习这些事情，强烈建议购买这本书。

It's called Make Time and it's really quick to read and it's basically just a long list of things you can do and we talked about a lot of them.

这本书叫做《Make Time》，读起来非常快，基本上只是一长串你可以做的事情，我们讨论了其中的很多事情。

There's a lot more.

还有很多。

And I think part of the premise of the book is try stuff, see what works, see what doesn't.

我认为这本书的部分前提是尝试新东西，看看什么有效，什么无效。

Keep reflecting, iterating, some of these things, even if you find two things that change how productive you're, that's a huge win.

不断反思、迭代其中的一些事情，即使你发现有两件事可以改变你的工作效率，这也是一个巨大的胜利。

Jake Knapp: I highly recommend people get the book.

杰克·纳普：我强烈建议人们买这本书。

That's great.

那太棒了。

And it's our best attempt to put together a how-to guide for doing this stuff.

这是我们最好的尝试，为做这些事情整理一个操作指南。

For what it's worth, we're not really motivated to try to create a self-improvement empire.

无论如何，我们并没有真正的动力去尝试创建一个自我完善的帝国。

This is not our full-time job.

这不是我们的全职工作。

We just hope it works for you and is useful.

我们只是希望它对您有用并且有用。

So if you don't want to buy the book, we get it.

所以如果你不想买这本书，我们可以买。

Go to maketime.blog and just check out some of the experiments and things that are available there or just try one or two of the things that we talked about today.

访问 maketime.blog，查看那里提供的一些实验和内容，或者尝试我们今天讨论的一两个内容。

Try the highlight.

尝试一下亮点。

If you're going to do one thing, just try right now writing down what you want your highlight to be, either for today or if it's late in the day for tomorrow on a sticky note and put it somewhere that you'll see it tomorrow.

如果你要做一件事，现在就尝试在便利贴上写下你想要突出显示的内容，无论是今天还是明天晚些时候，然后将其放在你明天会看到的地方。

Jake Knapp: Just that is a great step in the right direction.

Jake Knapp：这就是朝着正确方向迈出的一大步。

Try having a conversation with your colleagues or putting a signature or an autoresponder in your mail that says you're going to slow down or talking to them about slowing down at character.

尝试与你的同事交谈，或者在邮件中签名或自动回复，表明你要放慢速度，或者与他们谈论放慢性格。

At our VC fund, we had a conversation and decided we're going to try to have our main communication happen in Notion so that if we're talking about something, it's in a form, it becomes a document, and the expectation of how you react and respond there is going to be different than in a tool that's designed to get you responding as fast as possible, like an email inbox or Slack.

在我们的风险投资基金中，我们进行了一次对话，并决定我们将尝试在 Notion 中进行主要沟通，这样，如果我们正在谈论某件事，它就会以一种形式，成为一份文档，并且对您如何反应和回应的期望将不同于在旨在让您尽快回复的工具（例如电子邮件收件箱或 Slack）中。

Jake Knapp: So just have a conversation about that.

杰克·纳普：所以就谈谈这个吧。

Take a couple apps off your phone.

从手机上删除几个应用程序。

You don't have to buy the book or become totally bought into the system to do those things, but that's what we really want.

你不必购买这本书或完全融入系统来做这些事情，但这正是我们真正想要的。

We just want you to have more time for what matters for you.

我们只是希望您有更多时间做对您来说重要的事情。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

So I've used up basically all our time talking about Make Time.

所以我基本上已经用完了所有的时间来谈论“腾出时间”。

I think we should have a follow-up episode just to talk about Sprint.

我认为我们应该有一个后续节目来讨论 Sprint。

What I think we do is let's cut off the lightning round and whatever stuff you guys would've shared there, we'll include in the show notes.

我认为我们要做的就是停止闪电回合，无论你们在那里分享什么东西，我们都会包含在演出笔记中。

I'll send you those questions asynchronously, but let's just talk about Sprint for a few minutes just to give people a sense of what is this framework, it's extremely popular, lets a lot of really successful products, and then we'll wrap up and point people in the direction that you recommend.

我将异步向您发送这些问题，但让我们花几分钟讨论一下 Sprint，让人们了解这个框架是什么，它非常受欢迎，让很多真正成功的产品诞生，然后我们将总结并为人们指出您推荐的方向。

Lenny: What is this framework of Sprint?

Lenny：Sprint 的框架是什么？

When do people use this idea, this framework, this approach?

人们什么时候使用这个想法、这个框架、这个方法？

And what are some examples of what has come out of somebody applying Sprints?

应用冲刺的结果有哪些例子？

Jake Knapp: The big idea with a design Sprint is to go from a zero to a prototype and a test of that prototype in just five days.

Jake Knapp：设计冲刺的重要想法是从零到原型，并在短短五天内对该原型进行测试。

And it's a recipe, it's a scripted set of activities that we developed over a number of many years.

这是一个秘诀，是我们多年来开发的一套有脚本的活动。

First, started with some projects I was doing at Google and I run some experiments with the way I was working.

首先，从我在 Google 做的一些项目开始，我按照自己的工作方式进行了一些实验。

I was a product designer on Gmail in the 2000's, and I also co-founded Google Meet.

我在 2000 年代是 Gmail 的产品设计师，也是 Google Meet 的联合创始人。

And in the sort of week where we really catalyzed what had been a project that was going nowhere, this 20% project of people who were familiar with Google, like a side project was going nowhere for a year and a half.

在我们真正推动了一个毫无进展的项目的那一周，这个由熟悉 Google 的 20% 的人组成的项目，就像一个副项目，一年半以来毫无进展。

It was really on the rocks.

真的是触礁了。

And in one focused week working together, we decided me and these two other folks we're going to clear everything off.

在专注工作的一周里，我们决定我和另外两个人要清理掉一切。

Jake Knapp: I visited them in the Stockholm office where they were.

Jake Knapp：我在他们所在的斯德哥尔摩办公室拜访了他们。

We created a working prototype.

我们创建了一个工作原型。

Instead of trying to come up with the perfect plan, the perfect PRD, the perfect pitch to executives we're like, "Let's just build a prototype and put it in front of our colleagues and get them using it." And we did that and that was the thing that stuck.

我们不会试图想出完美的计划、完美的 PRD、向高管进行完美的宣传，“让我们构建一个原型，并将其放在我们的同事面前，让他们使用它。”我们做到了，这就是坚持的事情。

And so from there on, I was like, "I need to recreate these kinds of moments for teams because that's powerful." So we ran hundreds of these at Google Ventures with startups, tweaked and refined the process, wrote this book called Sprint.

所以从那时起，我就想，“我需要为团队重现这些时刻，因为这很强大。”因此，我们在 Google Ventures 与初创公司一起运行了数百个这样的项目，调整和完善了流程，写了这本书，名为 Sprint。

Jake Knapp: We run a venture fund today, John and I and our colleague Eli, called Character.

杰克·纳普（Jake Knapp）：今天，约翰、我和我们的同事伊莱（Eli）经营着一家名为“Character”的风险基金。

We help teams find and expand product market fit with Sprint.

我们帮助团队寻找并扩大适合 Sprint 的产品市场。

It's a tool for doing that and it uses a lot of these principles we talked about with Make Time to change the defaults, but not just the defaults of the way an individual works, but the ways teams work, the way people make decisions, the way we evaluate what's a good idea, a good strategy and worth pursuing based not on just a hunch or a guest, but based on something we can actually see with customer reactions.

它是一个实现这一目标的工具，它使用了我们在 Make Time 中讨论过的许多原则来改变默认值，但不仅仅是个人工作方式的默认值，还包括团队工作的方式、人们做出决策的方式、我们评估什么是好主意、好策略以及值得追求的方式，不仅仅是基于预感或客人，而是基于我们可以通过客户反应实际看到的东西。

So all of that kind of in a nutshell is what Sprint does.

简而言之，所有这些都是 Sprint 所做的。

John Zeratsky: This idea of getting unstuck and turning maybe some abstract ideas or some concepts that you've been discussing, turning that into a concrete prototype, something that you can look at and you can click around and you can actually try.

约翰·泽拉茨基：这个想法是摆脱困境，将一些抽象的想法或一些你一直在讨论的概念转变为一个具体的原型，你可以查看，你可以点击，你可以实际尝试。

It works in a lot of different contexts, and we've heard amazing stories from people who read the book and have run Sprints at companies that have a hundred thousand people and governments and all sorts of different organizations, but the stories that are in Sprint are about working with startups.

它适用于许多不同的环境，我们从读过这本书并在拥有十万人、政府和各种不同组织的公司中运行过 Sprint 的人那里听到了令人惊叹的故事，但 Sprint 中的故事是关于与初创公司合作的。

John Zeratsky: We think this is especially valuable for startups because typically you've raised a certain amount of money which buys you a certain amount of runway.

John Zeratsky：我们认为这对于初创公司来说特别有价值，因为通常你已经筹集了一定数量的资金，可以为你购买一定数量的跑道。

You have a certain amount of time to prove that you have product market fit to prove that the thing that you're making is the right thing for some customers.

您有一定的时间来证明您的产品适合市场，以证明您正在制造的产品适合某些客户。

And so the faster you can do that, the more quickly you can find out if you're on the right track, the more quickly you can learn and you can course correct and ultimately you can get to a better place faster than if you spent months working on that prototype or that first version of the product before releasing it.

因此，你做得越快，你就能越快地发现自己是否走在正确的轨道上，你就能学得越快，你就能走上正确的方向，最终你就能比在发布产品之前花几个月的时间开发原型或产品的第一个版本更快地到达更好的地方。

Lenny: I think what's awesome about it is as a product manager, the idea of containing a new idea experiment to five days versus this ongoing teams distracted on this idea just like, "Cool, we're going to spend a week, see where this goes.

莱尼：我认为作为一名产品经理，最棒的是，将一个新想法实验包含在五天内，而这个正在进行的团队却会分散注意力，就像，“酷，我们将花一周的时间，看看会发生什么。

They're not going to spend months exploring.

他们不会花几个月的时间进行探索。

We're not going to talk about it.

我们不会谈论它。

And just in theory, let's just try it." I think it's really powerful.

只是理论上，让我们尝试一下。”我认为它真的很强大。

And so for folks that may want to explore this until we do a follow-up episode, is it just by the book, is there anything else you could point them to think about this idea and implementing it?

因此，对于那些在我们制作后续剧集之前可能想要探索这一点的人来说，这只是书本上的内容吗？您还有其他什么可以指导他们思考这个想法并实施它吗？

Jake Knapp: Yeah.

杰克·纳普：是的。

Well, if you are thinking about, or in the very early stages of starting a company, a great thing to do is to get in touch with us at character.vc.

好吧，如果您正在考虑创办公司，或者正处于创办公司的早期阶段，那么最好的办法就是通过 character.vc 与我们联系。

And actually we're just opening up applications to our labs program.

实际上，我们只是向我们的实验室计划开放申请。

So character.VC/labs.

所以性格.VC/实验室。

Our labs program is an intensive program for startups, and we will run a sequence of Sprints including some new formats that are not in the book, but are excellent.

我们的实验室计划是针对初创公司的强化计划，我们将运行一系列 Sprint，其中包括一些书中没有的新格式，但它们非常出色。

Jake Knapp: This will be our third time running through this.

Jake Knapp：这将是我们第三次讨论这个问题。

We found that it's especially valuable for AI startups.

我们发现这对于人工智能初创公司尤其有价值。

So it just turns out that a lot of the complex issues you have to figure out with turning something that may not initially be trustworthy may require a big behavior shift to customers who aren't used to working in this way and sometimes artificial intelligence can produce things that feel kind of alien to people.

因此，事实证明，在转变最初可能不值得信赖的产品时，您必须解决的许多复杂问题可能需要对不习惯以这种方式工作的客户进行重大行为转变，有时人工智能可能会产生对人们来说有点陌生的东西。

Jake Knapp: And so making this stuff actually useful, more than just a chatbot with little stars that's in the corner that says, "Hey, would you like to ask the AI a question about this?" But something that's really meaningful, doing this kind of repeated and we'd run a sequence of Sprints doing it again and again, you work with directly with John and I, we find a really powerful way to get started.

Jake Knapp：因此，让这些东西真正有用，而不仅仅是一个角落里有小星星的聊天机器人，它会说：“嘿，你想问人工智能一个关于这个问题的问题吗？”但一些真正有意义的事情，重复做这种事情，我们会一次又一次地运行一系列冲刺，你直接与约翰和我一起工作，我们找到了一种非常强大的开始方式。

Jake Knapp: Anyway, that's a big advertisement for Character Labs.

Jake Knapp：无论如何，这是角色实验室的一个大广告。

But yeah, in general, check out the book.

但是，一般来说，还是看看书吧。

Also, would say if you're not quite ready to dip your toe in the whole book, you can go to the sprintbook.com.

另外，如果您还没有准备好深入了解整本书，您可以访问 sprintbook.com。

And we have a ton of resources on there, including a new thing, which is a Miro board, a Miro template that I created that has step-by-step instructions for every single step as well as 30+ videos of me explaining each step and actually I think I'm wearing the same sweatshirt in those, so if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see more of me in this sweatshirt in that template.

我们在那里有大量的资源，包括一个新东西，那就是 Miro 板，这是我创建的 Miro 模板，其中包含每个步骤的分步说明，以及我解释每个步骤的 30 多个视频，实际上我认为我在这些视频中穿着相同的运动衫，所以如果您在 YouTube 上观看此内容，您可以在该模板中看到更多我穿着这件运动衫的信息。

And that's free, that's free and there's a bunch of resources on the website that are free as well.

而且这是免费的，这是免费的，网站上还有很多免费的资源。

So anybody, everybody should be able to access this stuff.

所以任何人、每个人都应该能够访问这些东西。

Lenny: Stuff.

莱尼：东西。

Amazing.

惊人的。

And again, for folks that may want to check out the Labs cohort, is there anything other than AI-oriented that would be ideal?

再说一次，对于那些可能想查看实验室队列的人来说，除了面向人工智能之外还有什么是理想的吗？

Just how early stage, any other markets that are ideal for the Sprint process and the way you're approaching it?

到底处于多早阶段，是否还有其他适合 Sprint 流程的市场以及您接近它的方式？

John Zeratsky: Yeah, it's a four-week Sprint program for pre-seed software startups.

John Zeratsky：是的，这是一个针对种子前软件初创公司的为期四周的 Sprint 计划。

So we only invest in software startups at Character, and this program is really ideal for companies who they know what they're doing.

因此，我们只投资于Character 的软件初创公司，这个项目对于那些知道自己在做什么的公司来说确实是理想的选择。

They're not just like, "Oh, I want to start a company." They have an idea of an opportunity that exists, a market that they're focused on, but they definitely haven't reached product market fit.

他们不仅仅是说，“哦，我想创办一家公司。”他们知道存在一个机会，有一个他们关注的市场，但他们肯定还没有达到产品市场契合度。

John Zeratsky: They may not even have a product to test that hypothesis with.

John Zeratsky：他们甚至可能没有产品来检验这个假设。

So it's very early stage, and we are pretty flexible on the sector, the industry that you're in.

所以现在还处于早期阶段，我们对您所在的行业非常灵活。

But what we find is that the more there's kind of a big behavioral risk, the better this stuff works.

但我们发现，行为风险越大，这种东西的效果就越好。

So if you're just trying to make a slightly better version of something that already exists, and maybe it's going to be a little cheaper or a little faster, a little easier to use, you probably don't need this stuff.

因此，如果你只是想为已经存在的东西制作一个稍微更好的版本，也许它会更便宜一点，或者更快一点，更容易使用一点，那么你可能不需要这个东西。

You can probably just do it and probably going to work.

你可能就可以做到并且可能会去工作。

John Zeratsky: But if you are like one of our portfolio companies, they make AI that controls the industrial facilities.

约翰·泽拉茨基：但如果你像我们的投资组合公司之一一样，他们制造的人工智能可以控制工业设施。

They came from Google DeepMind and they did this for Google data centers before, something like that where you have to convince plant operators who are wearing hard hats and dealing with huge equipment, you have to convince them to trust AI.

他们来自谷歌 DeepMind，他们之前为谷歌数据中心做过这样的事情，就像你必须说服戴着安全帽并处理大型设备的工厂操作员，你必须说服他们信任人工智能。

That's a big behavior shift.

这是一个很大的行为转变。

That's a big behavioral risk.

这是一个很大的行为风险。

Or in healthcare, in education, places where it feels like the technology can really make a big difference for people, but it can be hard to get over that hurdle of trust and understanding.

或者在医疗保健、教育等领域，人们感觉技术确实可以为人们带来很大的改变，但很难克服信任和理解的障碍。

Those are the types of opportunities that we think we can really help with.

这些是我们认为我们可以真正提供帮助的机会类型。

Lenny: Playing on hard mode, these sounds extremely difficult.

Lenny：在困难模式下玩，这些听起来非常困难。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Lenny: So if you're thinking about starting a company or if you're in the process of starting a company, check out character.vc/ labs.

Lenny：所以，如果您正在考虑创办一家公司，或者您正在创办一家公司，请查看character.vc/labs。

John, Jake, thank you so much for being here and for making time for this podcast conversation.

约翰、杰克，非常感谢你们来到这里并抽出时间参加这次播客对话。

John Zeratsky: Thank you for having us.

约翰·泽拉茨基：感谢您邀请我们。

This was great.

这太棒了。

Jake Knapp: It was really a pleasure, Lenny.

杰克·纳普：真的很高兴，莱尼。

The pleasure is mine.

快乐是我的。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。