Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google)

Lenny Rachitsky: NewBank is bigger than Coinbase, Robinhood, Affirm, SoFi, and Lemonade combined.

Lenny Rachitsky：NewBank 比 Coinbase、Robinhood、Affirm、SoFi 和 Lemonade 的总和还要大。

80% to 90% of NewBank's growth is through word of mouth.

NewBank 80% 到 90% 的增长是通过口碑传播的。

Jag Duggal: We're not trying to be incrementally better, we are trying to be fundamentally different.

Jag Duggal：我们并不是在努力变得更好，而是在努力从根本上有所不同。

We want our customers to love us fanatically.

我们希望我们的客户狂热地爱我们。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like NewBank is one of the historically most successful companies that launching new business lines.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉 NewBank 是历史上推出新业务线最成功的公司之一。

Jag Duggal: We built a lending product, we built an investment product, we built an insurance product, we built a series of small business products.

Jag Duggal：我们开发了贷款产品、投资产品、保险产品，还开发了一系列小型企业产品。

We rarely scale a project until we know the Sean Ellis score hit a threshold that we find really compelling.

在我们知道肖恩·埃利斯的分数达到了我们认为真正引人注目的阈值之前，我们很少扩展项目。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk about strategy.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈策略。

Jag Duggal: Kevin Systrom in the early days of Instagram, I heard him say it at a conference.

Jag Duggal：Kevin Systrom 在 Instagram 的早期，我在一次会议上听他说过这句话。

We may not be right, but at least we are clear.

我们或许不正确，但至少我们是清楚的。

Even if your strategy isn't right, you have a very clear idea of what was supposed to be happening.

即使您的策略不正确，您也非常清楚应该发生什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: Where do you think all this goes in the future?

Lenny Rachitsky：你认为这一切未来会走向何方？

Jag Duggal: Why not have the company that reinvents banking come out of Sao Paulo, Mexico City, Bogota?

贾格·杜加尔（Jag Duggal）：为什么不让一家重塑银行业的公司来自圣保罗、墨西哥城、波哥大呢？

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Jag Dougal.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Jag Dougal。

Jag is chief product Officer at NewBank, which is one of the most under-the-radar monster businesses that you'll ever come across with a fanatical user base, and a really unique approach to building product.

Jag 是 NewBank 的首席产品官，该公司是最不为人所知的怪物企业之一，拥有狂热的用户群和真正独特的产品构建方法。

Before NewBank Jag was director of product management at Facebook, leading monetization of video and third-party content, including news, gaming, and influencer content.

在 NewBank 之前，Jag 担任 Facebook 产品管理总监，领导视频和第三方内容（包括新闻、游戏和影响者内容）的货币化。

Prior to Facebook, he was senior vice president of product and strategy at Quantcast, and group product manager and head of strategy for Display ads at Google, which was Google's second-largest business at the time.

在加入 Facebook 之前，他曾担任 Quantcast 的产品和战略高级副总裁，以及 Google 的集团产品经理和展示广告战略主管，Google 是当时 Google 的第二大业务。

Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation, we cover how to build products that people become fanatical about, how to develop a strategy, category design, product line expansion, the future of FinTech and tons more.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，我们讨论了如何打造人们狂热的产品、如何制定战略、品类设计、产品线扩展、金融科技的未来等等。

With that, I bring you Jag Dougal after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 Jag Dougal。

And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Work OS.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Work OS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and skim provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 Skim 配置等企业功能。

That's where Work OS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 Work OS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by Work OS, including ones you probably know like Vercell, Webflow and Loom.

如今，数百家公司已经采用 Work OS，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercell、Webflow 和 Loom。

Lenny Rachitsky: Work OS also recently acquired Warrant the Fine-Grain Authorization Service.

Lenny Rachitsky：Work OS 最近还收购了 Warrant the Fine-Grain Authorization Service。

Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.

Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。

This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale, while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.

这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，可以适应最复杂的用例。

If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, Skim or user management, you should consider Work OS.

如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、Skim 或用户管理），您应该考虑工作操作系统。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's a drop-in replacement for Auth zero and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free.

Lenny Rachitsky：它是 Auth 0 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。

Check it out at workos.com to learn more.

请访问 workos.com 以了解更多信息。

That's workos.com.

那是workos.com。

This episode is brought to you by Mercury.

本集由 Mercury 为您带来。

Mercury knows your financial operations are complex.

水星知道你的财务运作很复杂。

It doesn't have to be this way.

事情不必是这样的。

I've been a super happy customer of Mercury for over a year now, and it's honestly hard to imagine a better online banking experience can exist.

我已经成为 Mercury 的超级客户一年多了，说实话，很难想象还会有更好的网上银行体验。

Lenny Rachitsky: Most founders and finance teams have to couple together a patchwork of tools to reconcile transactions from different sources, work extra hard just to get a holistic view of cash flow and have maps to company priorities, and struggle to get answers from platforms that all speak different languages.

Lenny Rachitsky：大多数创始人和财务团队必须将各种工具拼凑在一起，以协调不同来源的交易，加倍努力才能获得现金流的整体视图并掌握公司优先事项的地图，并且很难从使用不同语言的平台获得答案。

Mercury knows that there's an art to simplifying this complex patchwork with new bill pay and accounting capabilities, you can pay bills faster, stay in control of company spend, and speed up reconciliation.

Mercury 知道，通过新的账单支付和会计功能来简化这种复杂的拼凑是一门艺术，您可以更快地支付账单、控制公司支出并加快对账速度。

Lenny Rachitsky: The end result is the precision control and focus that startups need to transform how they operate.

Lenny Rachitsky：最终结果是初创公司需要精确控制和专注来改变其运营方式。

Apply in minutes at Mercury.com, and join over 200,000 ambitious startups like mine that trust Mercury to get them to perform at their best.

只需几分钟即可在 Mercury.com 上进行申请，加入超过 200,000 家像我一样雄心勃勃的初创公司，这些公司相信 Mercury 能够帮助他们发挥最佳水平。

Mercury, the art of simplified finances.

水星，简化财务的艺术。

Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank.

Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，而不是银行。

Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group and Evolve Bank and trust, members of FDIC.

由 FDIC 成员 Choice Financial Group 和 Evolve Bank and trust 提供的银行服务。

Jag, thank you so much for being here.

贾格，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Jag Duggal: Lenny, I'm honored to be here.

Jag Duggal：Lenny，我很荣幸来到这里。

I'm a big fan of the show, and look forward to the conversation, so thanks for having me.

我是这个节目的忠实粉丝，并期待着这次对话，所以感谢您的邀请。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm even more honored.

Lenny Rachitsky：我更加荣幸。

Thank you for being here.

感谢您来到这里。

I want to start by sharing just some facts about NewBank that I think are going to blow people's minds.

首先我想分享一些关于 NewBank 的事实，我认为这些事实会让人们大吃一惊。

I think a lot of people in the US especially are sleeping on NewBank, and I think this is going to help people that are listening pay even more attention to the stuff we're going to talk about and the lessons we're going to share.

我认为很多美国人尤其是在 NewBank 上睡觉，我认为这将帮助那些正在倾听的人更加关注我们将要谈论的内容和我们将要分享的教训。

Lenny Rachitsky: So one, NewBank is bigger than Coinbase, Robinhood, Affirm, SoFi, and Lemonade combined.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，NewBank 比 Coinbase、Robinhood、Affirm、SoFi 和 Lemonade 的总和还要大。

80% to 90% of new Bank's growth is through word of mouth.

新银行80%到90%的增长是通过口碑传播的。

Three, NewBank has more customers than Bank of America, which is one of the four big banks in the US, while also only operating in three countries in Latin America.

第三，NewBank比美国银行拥有更多的客户，美国银行是美国四大银行之一，但也只在拉丁美洲的三个国家开展业务。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then also, you guys held the Guinness world record for the world's largest simultaneous unboxing for a credit card that you launched at some point.

Lenny Rachitsky：此外，你们还保持着你们在某个时候推出的信用卡世界上最大同时开箱的吉尼斯世界纪录。

Although I think somebody beat that record, is that accurate?

虽然我认为有人打破了该记录，但这是准确的吗？

Jag Duggal: I believe that is correct.

Jag Duggal：我相信这是正确的。

We've recently set a new world record for the first underwater credit card transaction, so we're always looking for some fun things to do there.

我们最近创造了首笔水下信用卡交易的新世界纪录，因此我们一直在寻找一些有趣的事情可以在那里做。

Lenny Rachitsky: I like that that's a record no one can break because it was the first one.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这是一项无人能打破的记录，因为它是第一个。

That's a sneaky way to get a record.

这是获得记录的一种偷偷摸摸的方式。

That's hilarious.

太搞笑了。

So my sense is the reason that NewBank thrived and made it is, there's this obsession with building a product that customers are fanatical about.

所以我的感觉是 NewBank 蓬勃发展并取得成功的原因是，人们痴迷于打造客户狂热的产品。

The stat that I shared of 80% to 90% of growth is word of mouth.

我分享的 80% 到 90% 增长的统计数据是口碑传播的。

And this idea of growing through word of mouth in this way is the dream of every company, whether you're consumer business, B2B, a bank especially, very unlikely that you grow at this rate through word of mouth.

这种通过口碑来增长的想法是每个公司的梦想，无论你是消费者业务、B2B、尤其是银行，你不太可能通过口碑以这种速度增长。

Lenny Rachitsky: So I want to try to help people learn from what you guys have figured out about how to drive such massive word of mouth growth.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我想尝试帮助人们从你们的研究中学习如何推动如此大规模的口碑增长。

And maybe just to start from the product perspective, how do you build a product team and a product development process that enables you to build a product that people get fanatical about.

也许只是从产品的角度开始，如何建立一个产品团队和一个产品开发流程，使您能够构建出人们狂热的产品。

And just want to tell all their friends about?

只是想告诉他们所有的朋友吗？

Jag Duggal: Yeah, I think there are a few things that are the fundamentals of making that happen.

Jag Duggal：是的，我认为有一些事情是实现这一目标的基础。

And to be clear, a lot of this predates my joining the company a little short of five years ago, but I think is an incredible story and is part of what inspired me to join.

需要明确的是，其中很多内容早于我加入公司的时间，大约五年前，但我认为这是一个令人难以置信的故事，也是激励我加入公司的部分原因。

But first I would say, really think hard and tap into a very deep pain point.

但首先我想说的是，认真思考并挖掘一个非常深的痛点。

The large incumbent Brazilian banks were amongst the most profitable in the world, they were also amongst the most hated in the world.

巴西现有的大型银行是世界上最赚钱的银行之一，但它们也是世界上最受憎恨的银行之一。

Jag Duggal: And my personal experience with that is early in my career, 20 years earlier in the late '90s, I had done a consulting project in Sao Paulo.

Jag Duggal：我个人的经历是在我职业生涯的早期，即 20 年前的 90 年代末，我在圣保罗完成了一个咨询项目。

And I remember walking to lunch one day with the client, who's a friend of mine, and we were going to Classic Churrasque Korea in Sao Paulo.

我记得有一天，我和客户（我的朋友）一起步行去吃午餐，我们要去圣保罗的经典 Churrasque 韩国餐厅。

And we were walking by his bank branch, and we were at a stoplight, and he basically said, that's my bank and I hate them.

我们路过他的银行分行，在红绿灯处，他基本上说，那是我的银行，我讨厌他们。

It was 1997.

那是1997年。

Jag Duggal: And it always stuck in my head.

Jag Duggal：它一直萦绕在我的脑海里。

It stuck in my head for 20 years later when David first reached out to me.

20 年后，当大卫第一次联系我时，这个想法一直萦绕在我的脑海里。

So we were tapping into a deep pain point, we can go into exactly why.

所以我们正在挖掘一个深层次的痛点，我们可以探究到底为什么。

But that was one thing.

但那是一回事。

The second thing that I would say, and this is very intentional from David, and Ed, and Chris, our founders, is we have a culture at NewBank, which is the most alive in our employees' minds that I've ever experienced.

我要说的第二件事是我们的创始人大卫、埃德和克里斯有意为之，那就是我们在 NewBank 拥有一种文化，这是我所经历过的在我们员工心中最活跃的文化。

Having worked at Google, and Facebook, and other places like that, I would bet that probably 80% to 90% of our employees could recite the five values to you if you stop them in the hall.

我曾在谷歌、Facebook 和其他类似的地方工作过，我敢打赌，如果你在大厅里拦住他们，我们 80% 到 90% 的员工可能会向你背诵这五个价值观。

Jag Duggal: It's not just on the wall somewhere.

Jag Duggal：它不只是在墙上的某个地方。

And the first of those values is a very peculiar phrase, set of words strung together.

第一个值是一个非常奇特的短语，一组串在一起的单词。

We want our customers to love us fanatically.

我们希望我们的客户狂热地爱我们。

And I remember when I interviewed at NewBank for the first time, and actually flew down to Sao Paulo, I remember seeing that phrase and thinking, "These are my guys.

我记得当我第一次在 NewBank 面试并实际飞往圣保罗时，我记得看到这句话并想，“这些是我的人。

These guys are taking this seriously." And a lot of my interview process from my side was really vetting if that was real, or if that was a sign on the wall.

这些人正在认真对待这件事。”我这边的很多采访过程实际上都是在审查这是否是真实的，或者这是否是墙上的一个标志。

So you start with the intent that you are going to make your customers love you.

因此，您首先要让客户爱上您。

Jag Duggal: And there are a million reasons, operational, convenience, short-term financial viability, which is a real thing when you're a venture-funded startup.

Jag Duggal：有一百万个原因，运营、便利、短期财务可行性，当你是一家风险投资的初创公司时，这些都是真实存在的。

Any number of reasons why you can compromise those things on the edges, and in a decision day to day, minute to minute, "We can cut the edges, cut the corner here on that." And look, I don't think we have been perfect on that, but we try very hard.

有很多原因可以解释为什么你可以在这些边缘问题上做出妥协，并且在日复一日、每一分钟的决策中，“我们可以削减边缘，在这方面削减角落。”看，我认为我们在这方面并不完美，但我们非常努力。

And when there are hard decisions to be made, we bias in favor of the customer.

当需要做出艰难的决定时，我们会偏向于客户。

The customer's love, will they want to tell their friends, and neighbors, and family about it?

顾客的爱，他们会想告诉他们的朋友、邻居、家人吗？

And so I think that's the heart of it.

所以我认为这就是它的核心。

Jag Duggal: Once you get those things right, the deep pain point, and a culture that is maniacal about making your customers fanatical, then you start to do the trade craft of product development.

Jag Duggal：一旦你把这些事情做好了，深层次的痛点，以及一种让你的客户狂热的文化，那么你就开始进行产品开发的贸易技巧。

You make sure that you focus on customer discovery before you start building.

在开始构建之前，请确保将重点放在客户发现上。

You make sure that that discovery is focused not simply on asking the customer, but on innovating on their behalf.

您确保发现的重点不仅仅是询问客户，而是代表他们进行创新。

You make sure that you take techniques from all over the place, from Procter and Gamble, to Google, to you name it, of maybe you can't ask the customer to tell you what massive new innovation they would love.

你要确保你采用了来自各地的技术，从宝洁到谷歌，凡是你能想到的，也许你不能要求客户告诉你他们会喜欢什么大规模的新创新。

You've got to observe them, and find their pain points even when they aren't noticing it.

你必须观察他们，找到他们的痛点，即使他们没有注意到。

Jag Duggal: And then as you build, you commit to measuring whether they in fact love the product, not fooling yourself about that.

Jag Duggal：然后，当你构建时，你承诺衡量他们是否真的喜欢这个产品，而不是欺骗自己。

And iterating like crazy over and over and over again until you get it just right.

疯狂地迭代一遍又一遍，直到你得到正确的结果。

So those are some of the principles, but I think the trade craft follows the focus on finding a real deeply held, emotionally held pain point, and a culture that says, that's your North Star.

这些是一些原则，但我认为贸易技巧的重点是找到一个真正根深蒂固的、情感上的痛点，以及一种文化，那就是你的北极星。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

There's so many threads there I'm going to follow, first of all, I want to go back to the values.

我要关注的话题有很多，首先，我想回到价值观。

So you said there's five, you mentioned one.

所以你说有五个，你提到了一个。

Can you just quickly share the rest?

您能快速分享其余部分吗？

Jag Duggal: The five, I'll mention them in the order that most resonate with me.

Jag Duggal：这五个，我会按照最能引起我共鸣的顺序提到它们。

First, we want our customers to love us fanatically.

首先，我们希望客户狂热地爱我们。

Second, we are hungry and we challenge the status quo.

其次，我们感到饥饿，我们挑战现状。

Third, we build strong and diverse teams.

第三，我们建立强大且多元化的团队。

Fourth, we pursue smart efficiency.

第四，我们追求智慧效率。

And one that is in many ways underlying all of it is, we think and act like owners, not renters.

从很多方面来说，这一切的根本原因是，我们像业主而不是租客一样思考和行动。

We do what is right even when no one is telling us to do it.

即使没有人告诉我们这样做，我们也会做正确的事情。

And we have many instances of our employees taking that degree of extreme ownership as they build products and get them launched.

我们有很多例子，我们的员工在构建产品并推出产品时采取了这种程度的极端所有权。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

And then going back to this idea of building products people love fanatically, you talked about how there's this the number one principle, and it's going to be on everyone's minds when they're building is build product people love fanatically.

然后回到构建人们狂热喜爱的产品的想法，你谈到了这是第一原则，当他们构建人们狂热喜爱的产品时，每个人都会想到这一点。

Talked about, you index towards if you had to make a decision, we're going to do something people love.

谈到，如果你必须做出决定，你会倾向于做一些人们喜欢的事情。

Is there anything more you could share about just how you operationalize this?

关于如何实施这一点，您还有什么可以分享的吗？

For example, is there design reviews where just you come in, or your head of design comes in like, "Is this helping customers love us fanatically?" What's in the systems and processes of how you operate that allows you to build that other than just cool, everyone has to remember this, this is what we're trying to do.

例如，是否有只有您介入的设计审查，或者您的设计主管介入，例如“这是否有助于客户狂热地爱我们？”你的运作方式的系统和流程中的哪些东西可以让你构建出不仅仅是酷的东西，每个人都必须记住这一点，这就是我们正在努力做的事情。

Jag Duggal: Yeah, we do a few things.

Jag Duggal：是的，我们做了一些事情。

And again, I don't want to also overstate that we've achieved some nirvana.

再说一次，我不想夸大我们已经取得了一些涅槃。

We honor many of these things in the breach sometimes, but we have a series of techniques that we've begged, borrowed, stolen from other places, some of which we've invented on our own.

有时我们会尊重其中的许多东西，但我们有一系列从其他地方乞求、借用、窃取的技术，其中一些是我们自己发明的。

But some examples, we love the Amazon mock press release technique.

但有些例子，我们喜欢亚马逊模拟新闻稿技术。

Explain to me before we've put a single engineer on the project, not explain to me actually, explain to the intended customer why they should care.

在我们安排一名工程师参与该项目之前向我解释，而不是实际向我解释，向目标客户解释为什么他们应该关心。

Because if you can't tell me in two paragraphs why the customer you're building this for should care, then there's still work to do.

因为如果你不能用两段话告诉我为什么你正在构建的客户应该关心，那么还有工作要做。

So that's one technique.

这就是一种技术。

Jag Duggal: We do have product and design reviews several times a week where we're asking ourselves that question, why is this great for the customer?

Jag Duggal：我们每周都会进行几次产品和设计审查，我们会问自己这个问题，为什么这对客户来说很棒？

Why is this fundamentally different for the customer?

为什么这对客户来说有根本的不同？

How does this redefine the category that we are thinking about on the dimensions of quality, on the dimensions of complexity, on the dimensions of price, and usually on the dimensions of all three of those at the same time?

这如何重新定义我们正在考虑的质量维度、复杂性维度、价格维度以及通常同时考虑这三个维度的类别？

And breaking some of the trade-off constraints that you often wrestle with, and seeing if that's possible, which isn't always possible, but we frequently reach for that and sometimes find it.

打破你经常纠结的一些权衡限制，看看这是否可能，这并不总是可能的，但我们经常达到这一目标，有时也能找到它。

Jag Duggal: And then there are other things you do after you've built and launched a product, whether it's alpha, beta, or a later stage.

Jag Duggal：在构建并推出产品后，您还需要做其他事情，无论是 alpha、beta 还是后期阶段。

The measurement stuff.

测量的东西。

And some of your previous guests have talked about product market fit and how do you measure?

您之前的一些嘉宾谈到了产品市场契合度以及您如何衡量？

Actually, it's strange.

事实上，这很奇怪。

I was sitting here in Silicon Valley for well over a decade, I landed in Sao Paulo when I first joined Newbank.

我在硅谷待了十多年，第一次加入 Newbank 时来到了圣保罗。

And the small product team at the time is telling me about this thing called Sean Ellis score.

当时的小产品团队正在告诉我这个叫做 Sean Ellis 分数的东西。

And we recently had Sean visit us in Sao Paulo and talk to all of the product managers and designers.

最近，肖恩 (Sean) 到圣保罗拜访了我们，并与所有产品经理和设计师进行了交谈。

But we are amongst the most fanatical followers of his methodology anywhere in the world.

但我们是世界上他的方法论最狂热的追随者之一。

We rarely scale a project, a product we've launched, until we know the Sean Ellis score and we know that it's hit a threshold that we find really compelling.

我们很少扩展一个项目，一个我们推出的产品，直到我们知道肖恩·埃利斯的分数，并且我们知道它已经达到了我们认为真正引人注目的门槛。

Lenny Rachitsky: Can you describe the actual score and the approach?

Lenny Rachitsky：您能描述一下实际的分数和方法吗？

Jag Duggal: Yeah, the Sean Ellis score is a really simple methodology used by lots and lots of companies that a gentleman named Sean Ellis popularized well over a decade ago.

Jag Duggal：是的，Sean Ellis 评分是一种非常简单的方法，被很多公司使用，十多年前，一位名叫 Sean Ellis 的绅士推广了这种方法。

Which basically asks your customers at each stage, and at each stage you have a small number of customers, then a larger group, and growing over time.

这基本上会在每个阶段询问您的客户，在每个阶段您都会有少量客户，然后是一个更大的客户群，并且随着时间的推移而不断增长。

But at each stage you ask them, how disappointed would you be if this product went away?

但在每个阶段你都会问他们，如果这个产品消失了，你会有多失望？

And what Sean has said is that if at least 40% of your customers are not very disappointed, not just a little disappointed, but very disappointed, he has essentially a three point scale.

Sean 所说的是，如果至少 40% 的客户不是非常失望，不仅仅是有点失望，而是非常失望，那么他基本上有一个三分制。

Not disappointed, somewhat disappointed, very disappointed.

没有失望，有点失望，非常失望。

Jag Duggal: If at least 40% are not very disappointed, you haven't reached product market fit.

Jag Duggal：如果至少 40% 的人不是很失望，那么你的产品还没有达到市场契合度。

Now we've had to do some things in NewBank, Brazilians are a culturally happier group than the global average.

现在我们必须在 NewBank 做一些事情，巴西人在文化上比全球平均水平更幸福。

So for us, our threshold isn't 40%, we've generally moved it up to 50%.

所以对我们来说，我们的门槛不是 40%，我们通常把它提高到 50%。

I don't believe we have product market fit unless 50% of Brazilians are telling us they would be very disappointed, because Brazilians are inherently polite.

我不相信我们的产品适合市场，除非 50% 的巴西人告诉我们他们会非常失望，因为巴西人天生就有礼貌。

And more polite and more optimistic than average, so we make our own little tweaks and adjustments.

而且比一般人更有礼貌、更乐观，所以我们自己做了一些小小的调整和调整。

Jag Duggal: But we find that to be very helpful.

Jag Duggal：但我们发现这非常有帮助。

As a company, this extends beyond product, we are addicted to our NPS score.

作为一家公司，这超出了产品范围，我们对 NPS 分数上瘾。

And we reach for world beating net promoter scores as a company, and product vertical by product vertical as well.

作为一家公司，我们的净推荐分数达到了世界一流的水平，并且各个垂直产品也都取得了世界领先的成绩。

And we are maniacal about tracking how we do.

我们热衷于追踪自己的表现。

And again, we compensate for some cultural biases, and we make sure that we hold ourselves to a high bar.

再次，我们弥补了一些文化偏见，并确保我们保持高标准。

But there have been, for example, in Mexico, we've recorded an NPS when we launched the first couple of years of 94-95.

但例如，在墨西哥，我们在推出 94-95 的头几年时就记录了 NPS。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's absurd.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太荒谬了。

I've never heard of that.

我从来没有听说过这个。

Jag Duggal: Yeah.

贾格·杜加尔：是的。

Which is way better than we got in Brazil, but our NPS scores skew in the 70s, 80s, and occasionally 90s.

这比我们在巴西得到的要好得多，但我们的 NPS 分数偏向于 70 年代、80 年代，有时甚至是 90 年代。

And when they dip down even one or two points, that's a reason for alarm.

当它们下降哪怕一两个点时，就需要引起警惕。

And we try to figure out why and we try to make sure that we make the iterations.

我们试图找出原因，并尝试确保进行迭代。

So those are the things we build in.

这些就是我们构建的东西。

Those are the things we build in.

这些就是我们构建的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm glad you got into this, I was going to get into how you measure this stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴你参与其中，我本来打算了解你如何衡量这些东西。

So what it sounds like is the Sean Ellis survey is used as you iterate and launch towards launch.

听起来好像 Sean Ellis 调查是在迭代和启动时使用的。

And then NPS is maybe post-launch to see how people like the product.

然后 NPS 可能会在发布后看看人们如何喜欢该产品。

Jag Duggal: NPS is post-launch.

Jag Duggal：NPS 是发布后的。

We also look at metrics like churn to make sure that we're not building a leaky bucket, and that's part of this viral customer acquisition loop that we've built.

我们还会查看流失率等指标，以确保我们不会建立一个漏桶，这是我们建立的病毒式客户获取循环的一部分。

We want to make sure we're building products that are great enough that our customers will tell their friends, and we don't have to invest as much in marketing to drive our growth.

我们希望确保我们正在打造足够出色的产品，以便我们的客户会告诉他们的朋友，并且我们不必在营销方面投入太多来推动我们的增长。

And that only works if the customers you get you retain.

只有当你留住你获得的客户时，这才有效。

I have built earlier in my career products that have leaky buckets, and that's a very frustrating treadmill to be on.

在我职业生涯的早期，我曾开发过一些有漏水桶的产品，这是一个非常令人沮丧的跑步机。

So I am personally maniacal about making sure that the bucket doesn't have a hole in the bottom.

所以我个人非常热衷于确保桶底部没有洞。

Lenny Rachitsky: So in this Sean Ellis piece, which is really interesting because I think it's something a lot of people can adopt if they're trying to build products people love, and also that succeed.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以在 Sean Ellis 的这篇文章中，这真的很有趣，因为我认为如果他们试图打造人们喜欢的产品，并且取得成功，很多人都可以采用它。

Is this a goal for every project?

这是每个项目的目标吗？

And I don't know the strategy, or the one pager.

我不知道策略，也不知道单寻呼机。

Or is it just implied, "Okay, we're not going to move past this gate if 50%, less than 50% of people are not very disappointed." Is that how it's operationalized?

或者只是暗示，“好吧，如果 50%、不到 50% 的人不是很失望，我们就不会跨过这扇门。”是这样操作的吗？

Jag Duggal: Yeah, we basically operationalize it.

Jag Duggal：是的，我们基本上将其付诸实施。

We don't have it as a hard and fast rule that is in black and white, but essentially that's the question people know they're going to get in any product review that's a post-launch, post data product review is what's the Sean Ellis score?

我们没有将其作为白纸黑字的硬性规则，但本质上这是人们知道他们将在任何产品评论中遇到的问题，即发布后、数据后的产品评论，肖恩·埃利斯得分是多少？

How do you know that customers love it?

你怎么知道顾客喜欢它？

Not just like it, but love it to the degree that they're going to tell their friends about it.

不仅仅是喜欢它，而且喜欢到他们愿意告诉他们的朋友的程度。

That's pretty baked in culturally at this point.

在这一点上，这在文化上已经很成熟了。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is an incredible insight, and I think it explains a lot of the success you guys have had.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个令人难以置信的见解，我认为它解释了你们所取得的很多成功。

Because that's a very high bar.

因为那是一个非常高的门槛。

Many people run the survey, and getting to past 20% is very hard.

许多人进行了这项调查，要达到 20% 以上是非常困难的。

You have to be very disappointed if there's a new product they've never used goes away, that's a high bar.

如果他们从未使用过的新产品消失了，你一定会感到非常失望，这是一个很高的标准。

Most people are like, "Ah, whatever.

大多数人都会说：“啊，不管怎样。

I don't need this thing." And you're saying you look for 50% of people feeling very disappointed if this new thing they've never used before goes away.

我不需要这个东西。”你说你发现 50% 的人如果他们以前从未使用过的新东西消失了，他们会感到非常失望。

Jag Duggal: Yeah, that's right.

贾格·杜加尔：是的，没错。

There are several on the newer side of products that we're launching now we're at borderline 50, and my push to the team is what are the three, four, five things you need to build to really get decisively beyond 50?

我们推出的产品中有几个较新的方面，现在我们已经达到了 50 的边缘，我向团队提出的建议是，要真正果断地超越 50，您需要构建哪些三、四、五样东西？

And what are the segments or cohorts where it is above 50, and what is that telling us versus the cohorts where it's lower than that?

高于 50 的细分市场或群组是什么？与低于 50 的群组相比，这告诉我们什么？

So we put a lot of analytical effort, and a lot of depth of thinking.

因此，我们投入了大量的分析工作和大量的深度思考。

We were in a product review several years ago, and our lead designer, whose ex Google and ex-Facebook, we were in a review together and the team was saying, "We think this is good enough for launch."

几年前，我们进行了一次产品审查，我们的首席设计师（他的前 Google 和前 Facebook）与我们一起进行了一次审查，团队说：“我们认为这对于发布来说已经足够好了。”

Jag Duggal: And he used the phrase, which both Chris and Kara, one of our co-founders and I have now adopted, which is, "Good enough, isn't good enough.

Jag Duggal：他使用了这句话，我们的联合创始人之一克里斯和卡拉现在都采用了这句话，那就是“足够好，但还不够好。

Is it great enough?" Is it great enough?

够厉害吗？”够厉害吗？

Because that's the bar, particularly for some of our ten-pole products, but we try to apply it largely across the board.

因为这就是标准，特别是对于我们的一些十极产品而言，但我们尝试在很大程度上全面应用它。

A lot of companies, not just in Brazil or Latam, but everywhere, spend a ton of money on marketing.

许多公司，不仅在巴西或拉美，而且在世界各地，都在营销上花费了大量资金。

Their VC budgets, VC funding basically goes to Google and Facebook.

他们的风险投资预算、风险投资资金基本上都流向了谷歌和Facebook。

And I've spent a lot of my career taking that money on board for Google and Facebook.

我职业生涯的大部分时间都在为谷歌和 Facebook 赚到这笔钱。

But it is a much better scenario if that's a small portion of what you're doing, and the main portion of what you're doing is actually investing in making the product great that you don't have to do that.

但如果这只是你正在做的事情的一小部分，而你正在做的事情的主要部分实际上是投资于让产品变得更好，那么你不必这样做，那就更好了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example of a project that comes to mind that was below that bar and then you pushed it above where you're like, "Here's the thing we were missing."?

Lenny Rachitsky：是否有一个项目的例子出现在我的脑海中，它低于这个标准，然后你把它推到你想要的地方，“这就是我们缺少的东西。”？

Jag Duggal: Yeah, I'll give you one that we're wrestling with right now.

Jag Duggal：是的，我会给你一个我们现在正在努力解决的问题。

We have a product called Assistente de Pagamentos, payments assistant.

我们有一款名为Assistancee de Pagamentos 的产品，即支付助手。

It's right now only launched in Brazil, we haven't yet launched it in Mexico and Colombia.

它目前仅在巴西推出，我们尚未在墨西哥和哥伦比亚推出。

Paying bills in Brazil is quite complex.

在巴西支付账单相当复杂。

There are four different ways, four different payment rails that different payments use.

不同的支付方式有四种不同的方式、四种不同的支付方式。

From the mobile payment system that has exploded in Brazil the last three years called PIX, that's become fairly world famous in the FinTech world, to more standard and some more archaic rails as well.

从过去三年在巴西爆发的移动支付系统（PIX）到金融科技界相当闻名的移动支付系统，再到更标准和一些更陈旧的支付方式。

Jag Duggal: So if you're a customer, you've got to keep track of your bills like we all do.

Jag Duggal：所以，如果您是客户，您就必须像我们一样跟踪您的账单。

You've got to keep track of which rail, you got to collect your bills, you got to make sure that you pay them.

你必须跟踪哪条铁路，你必须收取账单，你必须确保你支付了账单。

And some of the rails actually aren't that reliable.

而且有些铁轨实际上并不那么可靠。

So you've paid it, it doesn't go through.

所以你已经付了钱，但没有通过。

And the consequences for not paying a bill is getting reported to the credit bureau and becoming what is called negativado, having a negative mark on your credit report.

不支付账单的后果是被报告给信用局，并成为所谓的负数，在您的信用报告上留下负面标记。

And that can be a big deal for the average customer.

对于普通客户来说，这可能是一件大事。

And so this was a real deep pain point.

所以这是一个真正深刻的痛点。

Jag Duggal: And as we launched the product in a Reid Hoffman style, if you are not embarrassed by V1 you've waited too long.

Jag Duggal：当我们以 Reid Hoffman 风格推出该产品时，如果您对 V1 没有感到尴尬，那么您已经等得太久了。

As we've done that last year, we found that a very interesting pattern.

正如我们去年所做的那样，我们发现了一个非常有趣的模式。

We had a decent Sean Ellis score, borderline 40%, I forget the exact number, but basically in that ballpark.

我们的 Sean Ellis 得分不错，接近 40%，我忘记了具体数字，但基本上在这个范围内。

But we found that there was a small cohort of a customer base who had more than four plus commitments registered.

但我们发现有一小部分客户群注册了超过四项以上的承诺。

And even more so within that small cohort an even smaller bullseye cohort who had more than four commitments on at least two of the four rails.

更重要的是，在这个小群体中，有一个更小的靶心群体，他们在四个轨道中的至少两个上有超过四个承诺。

And their Sean Ellis score hit 70% and we're like, "Okay, the key is we need to across these rails, not have them one by one.

他们的 Sean Ellis 得分达到了 70%，我们就像是，“好吧，关键是我们需要跨越这些轨道，而不是一一地拥有它们。

And we need to make it easy for customers to onboard multiple bills across multiple rails." And then the automation takes over and people see the real, benefit because there are ways ...

我们需要让客户能够轻松地跨多个铁路运输多张账单。”然后自动化接管了，人们看到了真正的好处，因为有很多方法......

Jag Duggal: Patient takes over and people see the real benefit because there are ways.

Jag Duggal：患者接管一切，人们看到了真正的好处，因为有很多方法。

On the surface if you said to the average person anywhere, any sort of developed country, we're going to have a bill auto-pay, that's on the face of it not necessarily exciting, but if you build it right, it is actually a fundamentally different experience rather than incrementally better experience.

从表面上看，如果你对任何地方、任何发达国家的普通人说，我们将拥有账单自动支付功能，这从表面上看并不一定令人兴奋，但如果你构建正确，这实际上是一种根本不同的体验，而不是逐渐更好的体验。

And that's what we've done.

这就是我们所做的。

We've systematically made dozens of iterations on the product to allow customers to in one go do multiple bills across multiple rails and make that tiny bullseye cohort that we had, segment that we had a larger and larger proportion of the customers who are trying, and by the way, that's a journey still underway.

我们已经系统地对产品进行了数十次迭代，以允许客户一次在多个轨道上完成多个账单，并形成我们拥有的一小群靶心队列，细分我们拥有越来越大比例的正在尝试的客户，顺便说一句，这是一个仍在进行中的旅程。

We have a whole road map for the next year of lots of small quality adjustments that we're going to make and we're seeing some great feedback.

我们为明年制定了完整的路线图，其中包括我们将要进行的许多小的质量调整，并且我们看到了一些很好的反馈。

We're now over 10 million monthly actives on that product when we were struggling in the hundreds of thousands about 15 months ago.

现在，该产品的月活跃用户数已超过 1000 万，而 15 个月前，我们的活跃用户还只有数十万。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is a really interesting insight there of just using the score and survey to narrow in on who actually loves this the most and see if there's something there.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有趣的见解，只需使用分数和调查来缩小谁真正最喜欢这个的范围，看看是否有什么东西。

Is that something that you generally do or is that just like, oh wow that came up in this exam?

这是您通常会做的事情，还是就像这次考试中出现的那样，哇哦？

Jag Duggal: We do that fairly frequently.

Jag Duggal：我们经常这样做。

When we did our, we have a high income rewards credit card.

当我们这样做时，我们有一张高收入奖励信用卡。

It's called Ultravioleta.

它的名字叫“紫外线”。

We went through a similar process where at launch there were many different customer segments, but there was one that really loved the product and it was not surprising.

我们经历了类似的过程，在推出时有许多不同的客户群，但有一个真正喜欢该产品，这并不奇怪。

There were the ones where the customer spent enough each month that they got the fee waiver and then all of the other benefits that we had built in really resonated.

有些客户每月花费足够多的钱，他们可以获得费用减免，然后我们内置的所有其他好处确实引起了共鸣。

Whereas if you're paying the monthly fee, those other benefits were not quite as exciting or didn't quite compensate.

然而，如果您支付月费，那么其他好处就没有那么令人兴奋或没有完全补偿。

So we've done this several times and we've started recently combining it with trying to get very agile in getting that feedback from that bullseye segment.

因此，我们已经这样做了好几次，并且最近开始将其与尝试非常敏捷地从该靶心部分获取反馈结合起来。

So we've told many of our product managers and designers over the last two years, don't worry about serving 1000 customers, taking three weeks, serving 1000 customers, getting a bunch of cross tabs.

因此，过去两年我们告诉许多产品经理和设计师，不要担心为 1000 名客户提供服务，花三周的时间，为 1000 名客户提供服务，获得一堆交叉表。

Even at the end of which it's very hard to read the real fine grain customer feedback.

即使在最后，也很难阅读真正的细粒度客户反馈。

Jag Duggal: So we just tell them, call 10 of them.

Jag Duggal：所以我们只是告诉他们，给其中 10 个人打电话。

Pick up the phone yourself.

自己拿起电话。

Don't ask a researcher to come up with a plan to go do the research to then summarize it, to then bring it to you, which has so many degrees of distance built in.

不要要求研究人员制定一个计划去进行研究，然后总结它，然后把它带给你，这里面有很多程度的距离。

You pick up the phone, call 10 of them and nine times out of 10, by the time you've made your fifth call, you could predict what's customer six, seven, eight, nine and 10 are going to tell you.

你拿起电话，打了 10 个客户，十个中有九次，当你打第五个电话时，你可以预测第 6、7、8、9 和 10 个客户会告诉你什么。

And then you know what it is that is the gap or what it is that is truly resonating that you want to double down on.

然后你就会知道什么是差距，或者什么是真正能引起你想要加倍努力的共鸣。

So we're constantly trying to iterate in small ways the ways to get really that voice of the customer straight lined in to the people who are building the product.

因此，我们不断尝试以小方式迭代，以将客户的声音真正传达给构建产品的人员。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个建议。

I imagine as a PM that is extremely scary to go call a customer.

我想作为一名产品经理，打电话给客户是非常可怕的。

Most people don't do that.

大多数人不这样做。

By the way, do you actually operationally, is it actually a call or do you recommend the email?

顺便问一下，您实际上是在操作吗？实际上是打电话还是推荐电子邮件？

What do you actually recommend they do because,-

你实际上建议他们做什么，因为-

Jag Duggal: We literally pick up the phone.

Jag Duggal：我们确实拿起了电话。

Jag Duggal: Because you can get tone of voice.

Jag Duggal：因为你可以听出语气。

Brazilians and Mexicans are incredibly expressive.

巴西人和墨西哥人的表现力令人难以置信。

There is a degree of real fine grain sense that the statistics never tell you.

统计数据永远不会告诉你一定程度的真正的细粒度感觉。

Jag Duggal: And it's very aligned with design thinking and there's a lot of literature around how this works well, and I wouldn't say we're doing it especially to the best practice scientific.

Jag Duggal：它与设计思维非常一致，并且有很多关于它如何运作的文献，我不会说我们专门针对最佳实践科学来做这件事。

We're just like, just make the call.

我们就像，只是打电话。

Make it as simple, as unobtrusive with as little overhead as possible to make sure the voice of the customer is coming directly into the teams that are building.

使其尽可能简单、不引人注目，并尽可能减少开销，以确保客户的声音直接进入正在构建的团队中。

Lenny Rachitsky: Jeff Bezos had this quote on his Lex Friedman podcast where if you have data and you have an anecdote, usually the anecdote is right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：杰夫·贝索斯在他的莱克斯·弗里德曼播客上引用了这句话，如果你有数据并且有轶事，通常这个轶事是正确的。

Jag Duggal: I love that.

贾格·杜加尔：我喜欢这个。

That sounds exactly right to me.

这对我来说听起来完全正确。

Lenny Rachitsky: To make it even more tactical for the surveys you run, is there any tool you find?

Lenny Rachitsky：为了让您进行的调查更具战术性，您是否找到了任何工具？

How do you actually collect this data?

您实际上如何收集这些数据？

Is there anything interesting that you could share of just how to operationalize collecting this data?

关于如何收集这些数据，您有什么有趣的事情可以分享吗？

Jag Duggal: We've used a series of tools, many of the main survey vendor tools, we still use many of them, but we don't standardize or find one that dramatically changes our life beyond the mindset of we are going to make sure that this product has product market fit before we scale it.

Jag Duggal：我们使用了一系列工具，许多主要的调查供应商工具，我们仍然使用其中的许多工具，但我们没有标准化或找到一个能够极大改变我们生活的工具，超出了我们在扩大规模之前确保该产品具有产品市场契合度的心态。

One of the things I've seen throughout my career as a product manager and CPO, we live with it today at Nubank every month is the pressure on the line product manager to scale the product that the entire company, the entire executive team, the entire management chain has been counting on.

在我作为产品经理和 CPO 的整个职业生涯中，我们看到的一件事是，一线产品经理面临着扩展整个公司、整个执行团队、整个管理链一直依赖的产品的压力，今天在 Nubank 每个月我们都面临着这种压力。

We're launching this thing [foreign language 00:29:16].

我们正在推出这个东西[外语00:29:16]。

We all wanted to scale.

我们都想扩大规模。

We all are very excited about it.

我们都对此感到非常兴奋。

We had the product review six months ago and we thought this is going to be amazing.

六个月前我们进行了产品审查，我们认为这会很棒。

And the pressure on that product manager to scale a product is immense and the job of the product manager in many instances is to say no.

产品经理在扩展产品方面面临着巨大的压力，而在许多情况下，产品经理的工作就是说“不”。

Jag Duggal: And one of the things I try to say frequently within the walls of Nubank is we are not going to take a small problem and scale it because if we do that, we end up with a big mess.

Jag Duggal：我在 Nubank 内部经常说的一件事是，我们不会解决一个小问题并扩大规模，因为如果我们这样做，我们最终会陷入大混乱。

Something isn't working at small scale, no problem, especially if we have a strong hypothesis and a lot of ways of getting good customer feedback.

有些东西在小规模上不起作用，没问题，特别是如果我们有强有力的假设和很多获得良好客户反馈的方法。

We iterate, we iterate, we get it right and then once we get it right, scaling if you do it right in many cases takes care of itself because the customer is now excitedly telling their friends.

我们迭代，我们迭代，我们把它做对了，然后一旦我们做对了，如果你在很多情况下做得对，那么扩展就会自行解决，因为客户现在兴奋地告诉他们的朋友。

Jag Duggal: Whereas you can pour a lot of money and a lot of effort and when you have a big app like Nubank or places like Google and Facebook, you can make any product look great for months if not years because you have such a large customer base that you can always get them to try it with all sorts of basic techniques, but you're bouncing a dead cat.

Jag Duggal：虽然你可以投入大量资金和大量精力，但当你拥有像 Nubank 这样的大型应用程序或 Google 和 Facebook 这样的地方时，你可以让任何产品在几个月甚至几年内看起来都很棒，因为你拥有如此庞大的客户群，你总是可以让他们使用各种基本技术来尝试它，但你是在弹死猫。

And then you've got a real big mess to untangle when the thing is much, much larger.

当事情变得非常非常大时，你就会遇到一个真正的大混乱需要解决。

So we try to be pretty disciplined about that.

所以我们尽量在这方面保持严格的纪律。

And that's a lot of what the Sean Ellis does is it bring science to some of that art of making that judgment call.

肖恩·埃利斯所做的很多事情就是将科学带入做出判断的某些艺术中。

Lenny Rachitsky: This point you made about it's the PMs job to push back and stop bad things from happening I think is such an important one.

Lenny Rachitsky：您提到的这一点是 PM 的职责，就是阻止坏事的发生，我认为这一点非常重要。

A lot of PMs are just told here, build this thing and they kind of know this is not going to work, this is a bad idea, but either they don't think they should be pushing back or they are not good at it.

很多项目经理只是被告知，构建这个东西，他们知道这不会起作用，这是一个坏主意，但要么他们认为他们不应该推迟，要么他们不擅长。

From the PMs you've worked with that are good at convincing and pushing back, like we should not do this yet, do you have any tactics or ways of communicating that you found effective for pushing back to, like you said, all this pressure that's coming down on them?

从那些与你共事过的、善于说服和反击的产品经理那里，我们不应该这样做，你是否有任何你认为有效的策略或沟通方式，可以像你所说的那样，有效地反击所有这些落在他们身上的压力？

Jag Duggal: One of the things I've learned relatively later in my career, I wish I'd learned it decade earlier, decades earlier even is how important culture is.

Jag Duggal：在我的职业生涯中，我学到的一件事是文化的重要性，我希望我能早十年、甚至早几十年就学到这一点。

And we talked about the five cultural tenets, but this idea of we are owners, not renters.

我们讨论了五项文化原则，但我们是所有者，而不是租户。

You're an owner of that product as the product manager or the lead engineer or the lead designer or in fact anyone on the team.

作为产品经理、首席工程师、首席设计师或者实际上团队中的任何人，您是该产品的所有者。

If you really don't think it's going to work, don't tell me what I want to hear.

如果你真的认为这行不通，就不要告诉我我想听的话。

It's incumbent on you, it's expected of you as an owner to tell me the bad news and tell it to me early, even when it's convenient, even when there's a promotion at stake, these dynamics get very real very quickly then look, I don't think it's going to work and here's why, or it's not working and here's why, or we should kill it and here's why.

这是你的责任，作为老板，你应该尽早告诉我这个坏消息，即使在方便的时候，即使有升职的危险，这些动态很快就会变得非常真实，然后看，我认为它不会起作用，这就是原因，或者它不起作用，这就是原因，或者我们应该杀死它，这就是原因。

Jag Duggal: The second thing I would say is senior leaders at companies that have gone, especially startups that have scaled well, you usually have people who have been in that boat who have seen products that weren't working who have killed them or who have pivoted them pretty dramatically.

Jag Duggal：我要说的第二件事是那些已经消失的公司的高级领导者，尤其是那些规模良好的初创公司，通常会有那些曾经在这条船上的人，他们看到了不起作用的产品，这些产品已经杀死了它们，或者已经极大地改变了它们。

And there's a lot of respect for someone who has a real clarity of thought and brings a high bar and is not simply going with the flow.

对于那些真正思路清晰、有高标准、不随波逐流的人，我们会给予很多尊重。

So I think that's the main thing, is bringing that ownership mindset.

所以我认为最重要的是要有主人翁意识。

And the second is bringing clarity and bringing data and understanding that most senior executives in whichever company are strong-willed and bring strong opinions.

第二个是带来清晰度、数据和理解，无论哪家公司的大多数高级管理人员都意志坚强，并提出强烈的意见。

That's part of the job description.

这是工作描述的一部分。

That's okay.

没关系。

It is your job whether product or design or engineering or whatever function as a leader to if you think you are practicing for one of those senior jobs, it's sort of let's say a mid-level, it doesn't come miraculously when you get a C-suite title, it's something that's going to be practiced.

无论是产品、设计、工程还是其他任何职能部门的领导者，这都是你的工作，如果你认为自己正在练习其中一项高级工作，可以说是中级工作，当你获得首席高管头衔时，它不会奇迹般地出现，而是需要练习的东西。

And it's something that is expected and I think that's not just a Nubank thing.

这是预料之中的事情，我认为这不仅仅是 Nubank 的事情。

Jag Duggal: Certain cultures promote it better than others, but I think it's pretty universally important.

Jag Duggal：某些文化比其他文化更能促进它，但我认为它非常普遍重要。

And so I would just encourage people to try it, understand the trade-offs, understand the challenge, articulate the other side, but if you genuinely believe it's not yet ready to scale your products, at the end of the day, the big mess is a thing you're still going to owe and we're all going to forget that we told you to scale the thing.

因此，我只是鼓励人们尝试一下，了解权衡，了解挑战，阐明另一面，但如果你真的相信它还没有准备好扩展你的产品，那么到最后，你仍然要承担大混乱，我们都会忘记我们告诉你要扩展产品。

We're all going to still blame you at the end of the day.

到最后我们还是会责怪你。

So you might as well bite the bullet earlier, pivot it when it's easier to do and it'll work out better in the end.

因此，你不妨早点咬紧牙关，在更容易做到的时候再进行调整，最终效果会更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to one more thread and then I'm going to go in a different direction.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想再回到一个主题，然后我将走向不同的方向。

You talked a bit about talking to customers, finding innovative ideas, not just listening to what they're telling you.

您谈到了与客户交谈、寻找创新想法，而不仅仅是倾听他们告诉您的内容。

There's this whole skill of user research and interviewing customers and finding the pain point, figuring out what to build.

这是用户研究、采访客户、找到痛点、弄清楚要构建什么的完整技能。

Do you have any just, I don't know, tips or tactics or lessons you've learned about just how to do this well, how to uncover the pain point and then figure out what to actually build when you're interviewing customers?

我不知道，您是否有任何关于如何做好这件事，如何发现痛点，然后弄清楚在采访客户时实际构建什么的技巧、策略或经验教训？

Jag Duggal: I'll share a couple of thoughts, but I will tell you as a preface that it is arguably the area right now that I still wrestle with.

Jag Duggal：我将分享一些想法，但我会在序言中告诉你，这可以说是我目前仍在努力解决的领域。

I still think I, and we are not doing it as well.

我仍然认为我，而且我们也没有这样做。

I've never seen it done quite as consistently great as it could be, and I think it's an area for where design thinking and a lot of the design function can help us, but it's very, very, it's one of the areas of greatest inconsistency that I see in product development.

我从来没有见过它做得如此出色，我认为这是一个设计思维和许多设计功能可以帮助我们的领域，但它是我在产品开发中看到的最不一致的领域之一。

Having said that, a couple of things that I see that we sometimes do really well at Nubank and other times we miss on one dimension or the other.

话虽如此，我发现我们在 Nubank 有时做得很好，但有时我们在某个方面或其他方面却有所欠缺。

First off, per your Jeff Bezos anecdote, the anecdote usually trumps the data.

首先，根据杰夫·贝佐斯的轶事，轶事通常胜过数据。

And there are many times when I see teams that are doing very sophisticated analysis and they've sort of forgotten what the question is or what the conclusion they can draw from it truly is.

很多时候，我看到团队正在进行非常复杂的分析，但他们有点忘记了问题是什么，或者他们可以从中得出真正的结论是什么。

So never lose sight of the value of the customer's words and the anecdote.

因此，永远不要忽视客户言语和轶事的价值。

That's one.

这是一个。

Jag Duggal: The second one that I believe very, very strongly in is I think teams often skip the step of clearly, very, very clearly working very hard to be super crisp in articulating their hypothesis.

Jag Duggal：我非常非常坚信的第二点是，我认为团队经常跳过明确、非常、非常明确地非常努力地非常清晰地阐明他们的假设的步骤。

If you don't have a hypothesis, you're going to spend a lot of time researching, you're going to get a lot of data back, qualitative, anecdotal or quantitative and you're not going to know what to make of it because it's not either validating or invalidating your hypothesis because there isn't a hypothesis.

如果你没有假设，你将花费大量时间进行研究，你将得到大量数据，无论是定性的、轶事的还是定量的，你都不会知道如何利用它，因为它既不会验证你的假设，也不会否定你的假设，因为没有假设。

So it just becomes an interesting conversation.

所以这变成了一场有趣的谈话。

Jag Duggal: The third one is, I've got a hypothesis, I've got it really crisp and now the pitfall is I've fallen in love with my hypothesis.

Jag Duggal：第三个是，我有一个假设，我的假设非常清晰，但现在的陷阱是我已经爱上了我的假设。

I'm a lawyer for my hypothesis.

我是我的假设的律师。

I'm not a judge of whether the hypothesis is right or not right.

我不判断这个假设是否正确。

So I think that's another common pitfall.

所以我认为这是另一个常见的陷阱。

I've fallen into that one too many times to count.

我陷入这种困境的次数已经数不清了。

And then the last thing I would highlight is even when you have a strong hypothesis and you're actually in the mode of doing the research, observe more than ask questions if you can, ask indirect questions more than direct questions.

我要强调的最后一件事是，即使你有一个强有力的假设并且你实际上处于进行研究的模式，如果可以的话，多观察而不是提问，多问间接问题而不是直接问题。

Would you love this product?

你会喜欢这个产品吗？

Right.

正确的。

Excited product manager has been working for two months on a design.

兴奋的产品经理已经为一项设计工作了两个月。

You're searching for the problem more than the solution.

你更多的是寻找问题而不是解决方案。

You're looking indirectly and asking from multiple directions the same question rather than trying to find a yes, they love the thing you've been thinking about and swaying on for a long time.

你会间接地观察并从多个方向询问同一个问题，而不是试图找到答案，他们喜欢你长期以来一直在思考和摇摆的事情。

And if you can, observing is better than asking, although that's a tricky skill.

如果可以的话，观察比询问更好，尽管这是一项棘手的技能。

Those are the things that I look for.

这些就是我寻找的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: With the hypothesis point, just to make sure people understand, your suggestion there is before you start talking to customers, doing your easy researches as a PM or just anyone on the team, essentially have a perspective on what you think is going to be true.

Lenny Rachitsky：有了假设点，只是为了确保人们理解，你的建议是，在你开始与客户交谈、作为产品经理或团队中的任何人进行简单的研究之前，基本上对你认为正确的事情有一个看法。

Is that how you think about it?

你是这么想的吗？

Jag Duggal: Exactly.

贾格·杜加尔：没错。

Have a point of view on what you think the customer will say that will lead them to be really excited about your product.

对您认为客户会说的话有自己的看法，这会让他们对您的产品感到非常兴奋。

That way you will get very clearly eh or yes, bang the table excitement and you will know when you're getting that reaction.

这样你就会非常清楚地知道“是”或“是”，兴奋地敲击桌子，你就会知道什么时候会有这种反应。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example of that just to make it even more concrete?

Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个例子可以让它更加具体？

Because I imagine many PMs are kind of feeling like they have to be unbiased and just like, let's see.

因为我想许多产品经理都觉得他们必须公正，就像，让我们看看。

Let's see if this is something we should do and I don't want to bias anyone against it.

让我们看看这是否是我们应该做的事情，我不想让任何人对它产生偏见。

Is there a quick example of a hypothesis?

有一个假设的简单例子吗？

Jag Duggal: One of the famous examples that's somewhat hypothesis related and somewhat observation related is the invention of the Swiffer from Procter & Gamble.

Jag Duggal：宝洁公司 Swiffer 的发明是与假设相关和与观察相关的著名例子之一。

Right.

正确的。

The people hate mopping and they will do it and they won't even realize how painful an experience it is because they've just developed the work arounds and they just deal with the burden.

人们讨厌拖地，他们会这样做，但他们甚至不会意识到这是多么痛苦的经历，因为他们刚刚制定了解决方法，他们只是处理负担。

But if you observe very granularly what the problems are, then you can see where the problems are.

但如果你非常细致地观察问题是什么，那么你就能看到问题出在哪里。

And so if you bring a strong hypothesis to, that this is a real problem, even if customers aren't telling you it's a problem because they've just sort of gotten used to it.

因此，如果你提出一个强有力的假设，那就是这是一个真正的问题，即使客户没有告诉你这是一个问题，因为他们已经习惯了。

So that's one.

这就是其中之一。

Jag Duggal: We have a hypothesis at Nubank.

Jag Duggal：我们在 Nubank 有一个假设。

I'll give you one that's live.

我会给你一个活着的。

We have a hypothesis at Nubank that the joint bank account, I was doing some research on this just last week.

我们在 Nubank 有一个假设，即联合银行账户，上周我正在对此进行一些研究。

The joint bank account was invented in the early, it's actually hard to say, but it was invented, depending on what source you believe, in the late 19th or early 20th century.

联合银行账户很早就被发明了，实际上很难说，但它是在19世纪末或20世纪初发明的，这取决于你相信什么来源。

And it was basically invented coincident with the social movement, sort of the women's liberation social movements before women in the US were legally allowed to vote, where women were not allowed to open a bank account without their husbands prior approval.

它基本上是与社会运动同时发明的，有点像美国妇女在法律上被允许投票之前的妇女解放社会运动，在美国，未经丈夫事先批准，妇女不得开设银行账户。

That is the era from which the joint bank account that we still live with today came from.

我们今天仍然使用的联合银行账户就是从那个时代开始的。

It's 120 to 150 years old.

已有120至150岁了。

Jag Duggal: I don't think it's surprising.

Jag Duggal：我认为这并不令人惊讶。

Our hypothesis is it's not surprising that that artifact, that that product is not made for the modern customer, that it is easier for me to share a Spotify playlist with my wife or my daughter than it is for me to share a savings goal just mechanically.

我们的假设是，这个人造物、那个产品不是为现代客户制造的、我与我的妻子或女儿分享 Spotify 播放列表比我机械地分享储蓄目标更容易，这并不奇怪。

So we're going into a product development cycle that says there is a new social banking arrangement that is not about tweeting and it's not about social very broadly defined.

因此，我们正在进入一个产品开发周期，该周期表明有一种新的社交银行安排，它与推文无关，也与广泛定义的社交无关。

It is about our financial lives are inherently social.

这是关于我们的财务生活本质上是社会性的。

And it is very hard to share with my spouse, with my kids, with my parents who might be helping me pay for my child's education as an example, use case.

与我的配偶、我的孩子、我的父母分享是非常困难的，他们可能会帮助我支付孩子的教育费用，作为一个用例。

It's a very strong hypothesis.

这是一个非常有力的假设。

Jag Duggal: But when you go into the research with the customer, you don't try to sell them.

Jag Duggal：但是当你与客户一起进行研究时，你不会试图推销他们。

You try to see if they're experiencing pain points.

你试着看看他们是否遇到了痛点。

And it becomes very hard when you're in and they say even something a little bit in the direction of what you hope they would say to not be like, jump in with a lot of excitement and then get into more of a sell mode with them and almost try to sell against your idea, push back against your idea, make the customer sell you in the interaction.

当你介入时，他们会说一些与你希望他们不会说的相同的话，这会变得非常困难，带着很大的兴奋跳进去，然后与他们进入更多的销售模式，几乎试图推销你的想法，反对你的想法，让客户在互动中推销你。

And you play the devil's advocate.

而你却扮演魔鬼的代言人。

So those are the kinds of things we search for as we build products.

这些就是我们在构建产品时寻找的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: That sounds like a great idea.

Lenny Rachitsky：这听起来是个好主意。

I believe in this hypothesis.

我相信这个假设。

Today's episode is brought to you by OneSchema, the embeddable CSV importer for SaaS.

今天的节目由 OneSchema 为您带来，OneSchema 是 SaaS 的嵌入式 CSV 导入器。

Customers always seem to want to give you their data in the messiest possible CSV file.

客户似乎总是希望在最混乱的 CSV 文件中向您提供他们的数据。

And building a spreadsheet importer becomes a never-ending sink for your engineering and support resources.

构建电子表格导入器将成为您的工程和支持资源的永无休止的接收器。

You keep adding features to your spreadsheet importer, but customers keep running into issues.

您不断向电子表格导入器添加功能，但客户不断遇到问题。

Six months later you're fixing yet another date conversion edge case bug.

六个月后，您将修复另一个日期转换边缘情况错误。

Most tools aren't built for handling messy data, but OneSchema is.

大多数工具并不是为处理杂乱数据而构建的，但 OneSchema 却是。

Companies like Scale AI and Pave are using OneSchema to make it fast and easy to launch delightful spreadsheet import experiences from embeddable CSV import to importing CSVs from an SFTP folder on a recurring basis.

Scale AI 和 Pave 等公司正在使用 OneSchema 快速轻松地推出令人愉悦的电子表格导入体验，从嵌入式 CSV 导入到定期从 SFTP 文件夹导入 CSV。

Lenny Rachitsky: Spreadsheet import is such an awful experience in so many products.

Lenny Rachitsky：对于许多产品来说，电子表格导入是一种非常糟糕的体验。

Customers get frustrated by useless messages like error online 53 and never end up getting started with your product.

客户会对错误在线 53 等无用消息感到沮丧，并且永远不会开始使用您的产品。

OneSchema intelligently corrects messy data so that your customers don't have to spend hours in Excel just to get started with your product.

OneSchema 可以智能地纠正杂乱的数据，这样您的客户就不必在 Excel 上花费数小时来开始使用您的产品。

For listeners of this podcast, OneSchema is offering a $1,000 discount.

OneSchema 为该播客的听众提供 1,000 美元的折扣。

Learn more at oneschema.co/Lenny.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co/Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk about strategy.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈策略。

I know that you have a very strong perspective on how to think about strategy and approach strategy.

我知道您对于如何思考战略和实施战略有着非常深刻的见解。

This is something that everyone always wants to get better at.

这是每个人总是希望变得更好的事情。

Every PM is always told you want to build your strategic thinking muscles and this is really important to your career.

每一位产品经理总是被告知你想要增强你的战略思维能力，这对你的职业生涯非常重要。

I'd love to hear your take and how you approach developing strategy and your advice to folks.

我很想听听您的看法以及您如何制定战略以及您对人们的建议。

Jag Duggal: I will readily admit, I bring a bias.

Jag Duggal：我很乐意承认，我带来了偏见。

I spent almost a decade at the beginning of my career right after college working in a strategy consulting firm.

大学毕业后，我在职业生涯初期在一家战略咨询公司工作了近十年。

Right.

正确的。

So I bring a bias, which is to some degree, certainly for the length of time I did it, an unusual background for a product manager.

所以我带来了一种偏见，这在某种程度上，当然是我做这件事的时间长度，对于产品经理来说是一个不寻常的背景。

When I first showed up at Google, it took me a couple of years to realize my job was not to produce a nice PowerPoint, it was to ship code.

当我第一次出现在 Google 时，我花了几年时间才意识到我的工作不是制作漂亮的 PowerPoint，而是交付代码。

And I was doing a poor job of that for at least the first 12 to 18 months.

至少在前 12 到 18 个月里，我在这方面做得很差。

But I think there is almost a countervailing dogma in Silicon Valley or in tech companies more generally, that strategy is easy and execution is everything.

但我认为在硅谷或更普遍的科技公司中几乎存在着一种相反的教条，即战略很简单，执行就是一切。

And I think that's probably because there are a small number of companies that get the strategy right, but the legendary companies that we all know about not only got the strategy right, but then executed it really crisply.

我认为这可能是因为只有少数公司制定了正确的战略，但我们都知道的传奇公司不仅制定了正确的战略，而且执行得非常干脆。

What we don't hear about are the companies that got the strategy wrong, never got even into the conversation and all of their great execution was multiplied by zero.

我们没有听到的是那些战略错误的公司，甚至从未参与对话，他们所有的出色执行力都被乘以零。

Jag Duggal: Great execution multiplied by a poor strategy is a waste of everyone's time.

Jag Duggal：出色的执行力乘以糟糕的策略就是在浪费每个人的时间。

And because the strategy isn't clear, you can waste a lot of time executing years and years against something that was destined never to work.

而且由于策略不明确，你可能会浪费大量时间年复一年地执行一些注定永远不会成功的事情。

One of my favorite quotes from the Valley, from Kevin Systrom in the early days of Instagram, I heard him say it at a conference, this is pre the Facebook acquisition.

我最喜欢的硅谷名言之一，来自 Instagram 早期的凯文·斯特罗姆 (Kevin Systrom)，我在一次会议上听他说过，这是在 Facebook 收购之前。

And he was like, I don't know how old.

他说，我不知道多大了。

He had just left Google.

他刚刚离开谷歌。

He was probably, I don't know, 20 some years old.

我不知道，他大概20岁左右。

He said, "We may not be right, but at least we are clear." And what I love about that is even if your strategy isn't right, and it will never be exactly right because no plan ever is, you will have a clearer read on if you are going off course because you have a very clear idea of what was supposed to be happening.

他说：“我们可能不对，但至少我们是清楚的。”我喜欢的一点是，即使你的策略不正确，而且永远不会完全正确，因为没有任何计划是完全正确的，如果你偏离了路线，你也会有更清晰的了解，因为你对应该发生的事情有一个非常清晰的想法。

Jag Duggal: And so I think being very clear in your strategy is really important.

Jag Duggal：所以我认为非常明确的策略非常重要。

You've had some great guests on the podcast.

您的播客上有一些很棒的嘉宾。

Richard Rumelt is one of my absolute favorites.

理查德·鲁梅尔特绝对是我最喜欢的人之一。

He's written a couple of books, one called Good Strategy Bad Strategy, another more recent one called The Crux, where he does a great service to the world by even more than describing what strategy is, focusing at the beginning about what strategy isn't.

他写了几本书，一本叫《好战略》，《坏战略》，另一本最近的书叫《症结》，在这本书中，他不仅描述了什么是战略，还从一开始就关注战略不是什么，为世界做出了巨大的贡献。

Strategy isn't an ambitious goal, it's not an aspiration, it's not a set of financial outcomes.

战略不是一个雄心勃勃的目标，不是一个愿望，也不是一组财务成果。

It is a coherent plan for how you going to apply your strengths in a leveraged way against a core important problem.

这是一个连贯的计划，告诉你如何以杠杆的方式运用你的优势来解决核心的重要问题。

And that's a very, very rough paraphrase of the way he thinks about the world.

这是他对世界的看法的非常非常粗略的解释。

And I find that we often confuse strategy with a vision, a broad idea, a very, very broad, vague aspiration.

我发现我们经常将战略与愿景、广泛的想法、非常非常广泛、模糊的愿望混为一谈。

Nubank strategy isn't we want to be the world's largest neo bank.

Nubank 的战略并不是我们想成为世界上最大的新银行。

We do, but that's not an interesting way to dimensionalize the problem.

我们确实这样做，但这并不是一个有趣的问题维度化方式。

Jag Duggal: In 2014, we had millennial, middle-class, urban Brazilians who hated paying credit card fees and were not able to get credit in the first place because they were too young and without a credit history.

Jag Duggal：2014年，巴西的千禧一代、中产阶级、城市人讨厌支付信用卡费用，而且一开始就无法获得信贷，因为他们太年轻而且没有信用记录。

And we could offer them not just a lower-priced credit card, but a no-fee credit card, which was an emotional thing.

我们不仅可以为他们提供低价信用卡，还可以提供免费信用卡，这是一件令人激动的事情。

That fee got people angry and we could do that because we were branchless and digital.

这笔费用让人们很生气，但我们可以这样做，因为我们是无分支机构和数字化的。

Now that is a coherent description of a very specific problem for a very specific set of customers with a very specific solution based on a very specific advantage.

现在，这是针对一组非常具体的客户的非常具体的问题的连贯描述，以及基于非常具体的优势的非常具体的解决方案。

By the way, all of this predated my, this has got nothing to do with me.

顺便说一下，这一切都是在我之前发生的，与我无关。

I wasn't there.

我当时不在场。

But that's what I mean.

但这就是我的意思。

Strategy is very specific, it's very detailed, it's very locked in.

策略非常具体、非常详细、非常锁定。

And working backwards from that I think is really, really important.

我认为以此为基础进行逆向工作非常非常重要。

And if you get that strategy right, it informs the minimal set of activities you need to do to get...

如果你的策略正确，它会告诉你需要做的最小活动集......

Jag Duggal: ...

贾格·杜加尔：……

minimal set of activities you need to do to get traction and to win, whereas if you don't have that degree of coherence, you're trying to serve all the customers.

您需要做的最少的一组活动才能获得吸引力并赢得胜利，而如果您没有这种程度的一致性，那么您就是在试图为所有客户提供服务。

Maybe we should go to Mexico prematurely.

也许我们应该早点去墨西哥。

All sorts of things happen and your execution gets very diffuse, and you can't even tell why you're not getting traction across the company, whereas strategy allows focus and it allows a much more rapid read of whether your focused bets, your concentrated bets, are actually working.

各种各样的事情都会发生，你的执行力会变得非常分散，你甚至无法说出为什么你没有在整个公司受到关注，而战略可以让你集中注意力，并且可以更快地了解你的集中赌注是否真正有效。

Jag Duggal: You've had some investors on your podcast over the years, and they will tell you that concentration is what builds wealth, diversification is what preserves wealth.

Jag Duggal：多年来，你的播客上有一些投资者，他们会告诉你，集中化可以创造财富，多元化可以保存财富。

And you're a startup.

而你是一家初创公司。

You're not trying to preserve anything.

你并不是想保存任何东西。

You're trying to build something.

你正在尝试构建一些东西。

It requires concentrated bets, not hedging.

它需要集中下注，而不是对冲。

And because you're concentrating bets, those bets are high stakes.

因为你的赌注集中，所以这些赌注的风险很高。

You need to be very, very clear on what bets you're making and why you think it's going to succeed.

你需要非常非常清楚你在做什么赌注以及为什么你认为它会成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: When you work with PMs on your team in the past that are trying to get better at this muscle and following this advice that you're sharing of strategy, what do you find most helps them build this muscle?

Lenny Rachitsky：当您过去与团队中的 PM 一起工作时，他们试图在这方面做得更好，并遵循您分享的策略建议，您发现什么最能帮助他们增强这方面的能力？

Is it just doing it over and over and over and over?

难道只是一遍又一遍地做吗？

Is it reading good strategy, bad strategy, practicing it?

是阅读好的策略、坏的策略，然后进行实践吗？

What do you find is most helpful in helping you build this muscle?

您认为什么对帮助您增强肌肉最有帮助？

Jag Duggal: One is taking it seriously.

Jag Duggal：人们正在认真对待它。

It's a little bit like what we talked about with Nubank's culture.

这有点像我们谈论的 Nubank 文化。

First, you got to want the customer to love you fanatically as something that you value.

首先，你必须希望客户狂热地爱你，就像你看重的东西一样。

After that, I think frameworks really help, whether it's Good Strategy, Bad Strategy, whether it's Play to Win from a relatively recent guest of yours, Christopher Lochhead, who I really admire, whether it's Where to Play and How to Win from Roger Martin, which is a phenomenal book about-

在那之后，我认为框架真的很有帮助，无论是好策略还是坏策略，无论是最近的一位客人克里斯托弗·洛赫海德（我真的很钦佩他）的《Play to Win》，还是罗杰·马丁的《Where to Play》和《How to Win》，这是一本关于-的非凡书籍。

Lenny Rachitsky: He's coming on the podcast in a few weeks.

Lenny Rachitsky：几周后他就会出现在播客上。

Jag Duggal: Is he?

贾格·杜加尔：是吗？

He's fantastic.

他太棒了。

And having those frameworks, all of which in many ways, if you synthesize them, are getting at the same thing around focus, around a clear understanding of the customer, around not trying to be in the words that we literally have on Nubank coffee mugs, "We're not trying to be incrementally better.

拥有这些框架，所有这些框架，如果你把它们综合起来，在很多方面都会得到同样的结果，围绕着焦点，围绕着对客户的清晰理解，围绕着不试图用我们在 Nubank 咖啡杯上所说的那样，“我们并不是在努力变得更好。

We are trying to be fundamentally different." These are all very similar ideas expressed in slightly different ways.

我们正在努力实现根本性的不同。”这些都是非常相似的想法，但表达方式略有不同。

Jag Duggal: Once you understand the frameworks and you distill them, then it's about practicing them and practicing them is scary.

Jag Duggal：一旦你理解了框架并提炼了它们，接下来就是练习它们，而练习它们是可怕的。

Hedging is appealing.

对冲很有吸引力。

Hedging means you don't have to make choices.

对冲意味着您不必做出选择。

Hedging sounds smart.

对冲听起来很聪明。

Concentrating all your bets is the thing that desperate people do, and startups are desperate entities because they're burning cash in almost every instance.

集中你所有的赌注是绝望的人所做的事情，而初创公司是绝望的实体，因为他们几乎在每个情况下都在烧钱。

But successful startups, the ones that become profitable...

但是成功的初创公司，那些能够盈利的......

I'm very wary, given the places I've worked, of the successful company with one or two monster products, and Nubank is now in that fortunate position, that starts to get conservative, that starts to forget that focus, concentration, customer obsession are every bit as important, that even though the company won't go bankrupt if products three, four, five and six don't succeed because products one and two are monster cashflow drivers, that's a slow path to death.

考虑到我工作过的地方，我对那些拥有一两个怪物产品的成功公司非常警惕，而 Nubank 现在处于一个幸运的位置，它开始变得保守，开始忘记专注、专注、客户至上同样重要，即使产品三、四、五和六不成功，公司也不会破产，因为产品一和二是怪物现金流驱动因素，但那是一条缓慢的死亡之路。

Jag Duggal: And so practicing that discipline and having, and I use this word very intentionally, having the courage to make those hard choices and to concentrate the bets, which goes against, by the way, a lot of what's taught in business school and a lot of MBAs is really important, and then it's a matter of you get better the more you do it and you get more practiced and more grooved and more principled in how you get to a methodology the more you do it.

Jag Duggal：所以练习这种纪律和拥有，我非常有意地使用这个词，有勇气做出那些艰难的选择并集中赌注，顺便说一句，这与商学院和很多MBA所教授的很多内容相悖，这非常重要，然后问题是你做得越多，你就会变得更好，你做得越多，你在如何获得方法论方面就会变得越熟练，越有条理，越有原则。

Lenny Rachitsky: Did you say the mugs at Nubank say, "Be fundamentally different"?

Lenny Rachitsky：你是否说过 Nubank 的杯子上写着“从根本上不同”？

Jag Duggal: The product team, a little over a year ago we put together some schwag, which was fundamentally ...

Jag Duggal：产品团队，一年多前，我们整理了一些东西，从根本上来说......

I have a mantra within the company since roughly the time I joined, which is, "We're in the business of being fundamentally different, not incrementally better." Again, it goes back to only fundamentally different, gets customers to tell their friends.

大约从我加入公司的时候起，我在公司就有一条口头禅，那就是“我们的业务是从根本上与众不同，而不是逐步变得更好。”同样，它又回到了根本上的不同，让顾客告诉他们的朋友。

Incrementally better.

逐渐好起来。

Jag Duggal: And by the way, there are certain features ...

Jag Duggal：顺便说一句，有一些特点......

I don't want to overstate the case ...

我不想夸大这个案子...

There are certain features where you're in the incrementally better business.

在某些功能中，您的业务会逐渐变得更好。

Not every single thing of the hundred things you launch in a year can be fundamentally different, but we're searching for those anchors that are going to be fundamentally different all the time around which you build some sustaining innovation as well, but we are in the fundamentally different business, not the incrementally better business.

一年内推出的一百件事情中，并非每一件事情都可以完全不同，但我们正在寻找那些始终会发生根本不同的锚点，围绕它们建立一些持续性创新，但我们从事的是根本不同的业务，而不是渐进式更好的业务。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that, and that's a great segue to where I wanted to go, which is I know you're a big fan of category design.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这一点，这是我想去的地方的一个很好的延续，我知道你是类别设计的忠实粉丝。

You mentioned Christopher Lochhead, former guest.

你提到了前客人克里斯托弗·洛赫海德。

This is actually one of the more common debates on this podcast of do people believe in we should be creating our own category or should we not?

这实际上是这个播客上最常见的辩论之一，人们相信我们应该创建自己的类别还是不应该？

Is that a terrible idea?

这是一个糟糕的主意吗？

Is it a good idea?

这是个好主意吗？

It feels like you're in the camp of this is actually very good and important.

感觉就像你在这个阵营中一样，这实际上是非常好的和重要的。

I'd love to hear your perspective and also just how Nubank did this.

我很想听听您的观点以及 Nubank 是如何做到这一点的。

Jag Duggal: You know Lenny, literally earlier in this week, I was listening to your podcast with I believe it was Todd Jackson, ex Gmail product leader and now venture capitalist, and you guys had a very interesting discussion about it, and I think he took largely the other side of the argument that you go in a category where customers are already spending money.

Jag Duggal：你知道 Lenny，这周早些时候，我正在听你的播客，我相信那是 Todd Jackson，前 Gmail 产品领导者，现在的风险投资家，你们对此进行了非常有趣的讨论，我认为他很大程度上采取了论点的另一面，即你进入了一个客户已经在花钱的类别。

And it's hard to argue with that fairly robust logic.

很难反驳这种相当强大的逻辑。

Jag Duggal: I will tell you how I think about it.

Jag Duggal：我会告诉你我的想法。

It forced me to think about where are the nuances in how I believe.

它迫使我思考我的信仰的细微差别在哪里。

I think overall, particularly at a company level, successful companies are typically in the fundamentally different business.

我认为总体而言，特别是在公司层面，成功的公司通常从事根本不同的业务。

They're in the new category business.

他们处于新类别业务中。

Google was in the new category business.

谷歌从事的是新类别业务。

Netflix, Airbnb, you can go down the long list, Salesforce, et cetera, et cetera.

Netflix、Airbnb，你可以沿着长长的名单往下看，Salesforce 等等。

That's really important.

这真的很重要。

Jag Duggal: In Nubank's case, we were the first, and actually, it's not that important that we were the first, but we were very intentionally trying to build a branchless bank based on the rise of the smartphone in Brazil and Latin America at that time, the sort of rapid inflection, and a branchless bank that could bring, as David likes to say, put a bank branch in your pocket, where at the time access was the big problem, and that you could do that on a digital cost structure that allowed you to essentially disruptively price across the board was the thing that led to the massive wave of success, multiplied by, unlike almost everywhere else in the world, including in the US where the answer was, "We're going to do the bank account first." Nubank's answer was, "No, we're going to do credit first and credit is 10 times harder and 100 times more risky," because you get credit wrong as a young company that doesn't know how to do it yet, you've blown everything up.

Jag Duggal：就 Nubank 而言，我们是第一家，实际上，我们是第一家并不那么重要，但我们非常有意地尝试建立一家无网点银行，基于当时巴西和拉丁美洲智能手机的兴起，这种快速变化，以及一家无网点银行，正如大卫喜欢说的那样，可以把银行分行放在你的口袋里，而当时访问是一个大问题，你可以在数字成本结构上做到这一点，允许与世界上几乎所有其他地方不同，包括在美国，答案是“我们将首先处理银行账户”。 Nubank 的回答是，“不，我们要先做信贷，而信贷的难度要高出 10 倍，风险要高出 100 倍。”因为作为一家还不知道如何去做的年轻公司，如果你把信贷搞错了，你就会把一切都搞砸了。

The money's never coming back.

钱永远回不来了

Those two, again, concentrated bets, defining a new category, were I think the key to our success.

我认为，这两个集中的赌注，定义了一个新的类别，是我们成功的关键。

Jag Duggal: Now, there are times when you're trying to go into an adjacent market.

Jag Duggal：现在，有时您会尝试进入相邻市场。

We've recently gone into a market called Consignado in Brazil, which is secured lending for government employees.

我们最近进入了巴西一个名为 Consignado 的市场，该市场为政府雇员提供担保贷款。

Very stable job, easier to underwrite against their salary at a much lower interest rate.

工作非常稳定，更容易以低得多的利率以工资承保。

That's a market that's existed for a couple of decades in Brazil, and our job was to go in there, and we believe we built something that is fundamentally different.

这个市场在巴西已经存在了几十年，我们的工作就是进入那里，我们相信我们建立了一些根本不同的东西。

It wasn't digital.

它不是数字的。

It went through middlemen.

是经过中间商的。

We built it D to C, and we've been able to undercut the pricing pretty dramatically.

我们从 D 到 C 构建了它，并且我们已经能够大幅降低价格。

Jag Duggal: So even within an established category, we've tried to build a fundamentally different experience, but there are also times when, look, it's not quite me too, but the differentiation's a bit more incremental.

Jag Duggal：因此，即使在一个既定的类别中，我们也试图打造一种根本不同的体验，但有时，你看，这也不完全是我的风格，但差异化会更加渐进。

But at the company level, I think it's absolutely imperative to be designing your own category so you can then dominate it and defining your own category.

但在公司层面，我认为设计自己的品类是绝对必要的，这样你就可以主导它并定义自己的品类。

And even when you're entering a place where customers are spending money, I think going in with a mindset that says, "This is going to be a bit better," and I think Todd would probably agree with this, given the way he described it, you should try to be reinventing that category, even if you're not inventing that category.

即使当你进入一个顾客花钱的地方时，我认为带着这样的心态进入，“这会更好一点，”我认为托德可能会同意这一点，考虑到他所描述的方式，你应该尝试重新发明这个类别，即使你没有发明那个类别。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I like this battle we're forming here of people on two sides of this debate, and I'm excited to see where it goes over time.

我喜欢我们在这里由辩论双方的人们组成的这场战斗，我很高兴看到随着时间的推移它会走向何方。

It feels like the do not create a category side is winning so far in terms of volume, but there's a lot of passion from this other side.

感觉到目前为止，不创建类别的一方在数量方面取得了胜利，但另一方也充满了热情。

Jag Duggal: I'm happy to be on the contrarian side.

Jag Duggal：我很高兴站在逆向一边。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, there's a few more things I want to touch on before we wrap up.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，在结束之前我还想谈一些事情。

It feels like Nubank is one of the historically most successful companies launching new business lines.

感觉 Nubank 是历史上推出新业务线最成功的公司之一。

I think you guys are maybe like 10 years old, and how many products slash business lines are there at this point?

我想你们大概只有10岁左右，现在有多少产品会削减业务线？

Jag Duggal: It depends on how you categorize it, but I would say we have roughly a dozen to 20 core product lines.

Jag Duggal：这取决于你如何分类，但我想说我们大约有十到二十个核心产品线。

Jag Duggal: Our story started as, we were a Brazilian credit card monoliner in an app and all the rest of it.

Jag Duggal：我们的故事始于，我们是一个应用程序中的巴西信用卡单行者以及其他所有内容。

Around the time, slightly before, but around the time I joined the phase two of the company, the mandate of what we were trying to do, which has really been the story of the last five years, was we were going to go from a Brazilian credit card company to a full solution Latin American bank, which meant we launched five new products.

大约在那个时候，大约在我加入公司第二阶段的时候，我们正在努力做的事情，这实际上是过去五年的故事，是我们将从一家巴西信用卡公司转变为一家提供全面解决方案的拉丁美洲银行，这意味着我们推出了五种新产品。

We launched a bank account, which allowed us to go from being a secondary banking relationship to increasingly a primary banking relationship.

我们开设了一个银行账户，这使我们能够从次要银行关系转变为主要银行关系。

About half of our 90 plus million customers, we are the primary relationship.

在我们 90 多万客户中，大约有一半是我们的主要关系。

We built a lending product, we built an investments product, we built an insurance product, we built a series of small business products.

我们建立了贷款产品，我们建立了投资产品，我们建立了保险产品，我们建立了一系列小企业产品。

Jag Duggal: While we were doing that, we were also making the leap to prove, despite a lot of skepticism, that our business model was exportable and not a unique Brazilian phenomenon.

Jag Duggal：在我们这样做的同时，我们也做出了飞跃，以证明我们的商业模式是可以出口的，而不是巴西独有的现象，尽管存在很多怀疑。

So we launched into Mexico and launched into Colombia and now we are starting to take the full suite of products and go beyond credit card in Mexico and Colombia as well.

因此，我们进入了墨西哥并进入了哥伦比亚，现在我们开始在墨西哥和哥伦比亚推出全套产品，并超越信用卡。

Jag Duggal: So depending on how you look at that matrix, we are a dozen plus products and we're working on the phase three of our products, which is moving beyond financial services.

Jag Duggal：因此，根据您如何看待该矩阵，我们有十几种产品，并且我们正在开发产品的第三阶段，该阶段将超越金融服务。

We've launched an e-commerce marketplace within our app, which is perhaps a bit counterintuitive if you're coming from the US.

我们在我们的应用程序中推出了一个电子商务市场，如果您来自美国，这可能有点违反直觉。

And we're also envisioning a world where banking is, again, to use the phrase that we love at Nubank, fundamentally different than it has been in the last 100 years.

我们还设想了一个银行业的世界，再次用我们在 Nubank 喜欢的短语来说，与过去 100 年的银行业有着根本的不同。

And we believe that social technology, self-driving and AI technologies can build a just completely different experience, where we're not building a bank branch and putting it in your pocket.

我们相信，社交技术、自动驾驶和人工智能技术可以打造完全不同的体验，我们不会建造一个银行分行并将其放入您的口袋。

We're building a personal banker, which today, I don't know, 10 million people around the world have access to and you got to have a lot of money to do it.

我们正在建立一个个人银行家，我不知道今天全世界有 1000 万人可以使用它，而且你必须有很多钱才能做到这一点。

Jag Duggal: We believe that job can be democratized ultimately to all eight billion people on the planet, and we believe it can be done better for those eight billion even than the 10 million are getting today.

贾格·杜加尔：我们相信，工作最终可以为地球上所有 80 亿人实现民主化，而且我们相信，对于这 80 亿人来说，工作可以做得比今天的 1000 万人做得更好。

But that's a lot of work, and that's, to use Christopher Lochhead and his co-author's language, that's the new category that we are trying to define over on a global basis.

但这是大量的工作，用克里斯托弗·洛赫黑德和他的合著者的话来说，这就是我们试图在全球范围内定义的新类别。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's going to be a tiny little banker to fit in your pocket, tiny little person.

Lenny Rachitsky：这将是一个可以装在你口袋里的小银行家，小人物。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to follow on this thread, but before we get there, so in terms of adding new product lines and business units, watching how Nubank has done this, is there something you've learned about just how to do this well?

Lenny Rachitsky：我想继续关注这个话题，但在我们到达那里之前，在添加新的产品线和业务部门方面，看看 Nubank 是如何做到这一点的，您是否已经学到了如何做好这件事？

I'm imagining there's a spreadsheet where, "Here's all the things we're going to do in the future.

我想象有一个电子表格，其中“这是我们将来要做的所有事情。

Here's how we're thinking about all the factors of all the new businesses we can launch." Is there anything there you've seen of just like, wow, that's a really smart way of thinking about the sequencing slash where to expand next that you think other folks can learn from?

以下是我们如何考虑我们可以推出的所有新业务的所有因素。”您是否见过类似的东西，哇，这是一种非常聪明的思考排序斜线下一步要扩展的方式，您认为其他人可以从中学习？

Jag Duggal: I wish I could tell you that there was this predestined master plan that was so scientific.

Jag Duggal：我希望我能告诉你，有一个注定的总体规划，它是如此科学。

The reality is smart people around the table with a culture of robust debate and real candor about the pros and cons is how we went about it, and a constant re-examination of how things are going, what's going well, what's not going well, what's taking off, what's not yet taking off, what are the principles by which we're making these decisions has been important.

现实是，谈判桌上的聪明人有着激烈辩论的文化，并且对利弊进行真正坦诚的讨论，这就是我们的处理方式，并且不断重新审视事情进展如何，哪些进展顺利，哪些进展不顺利，哪些正在起飞，哪些尚未起飞，我们做出这些决定的原则是什么，这些都是很重要的。

Jag Duggal: Some of these things are obvious.

Jag Duggal：其中一些事情是显而易见的。

If you're running a bank, a bank account is probably a good product at some stage, but a lot of it in terms of sequencing and when we invest where, some of it's obvious, what's the TAM and where's the customer paying, but a lot of it is art and a lot of that resolution of the art and the debate.

如果你经营一家银行，银行账户在某个阶段可能是一个很好的产品，但很多都是在排序方面，以及当我们在哪里投资时，其中一些是显而易见的，TAM 是什么，客户在哪里付款，但很多都是艺术，很多是艺术和辩论的解决方案。

It comes from a fairly robust debate, so I'm avoiding your question.

它来自一场相当激烈的辩论，所以我回避你的问题。

I have no good answer.

我没有好的答案。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just a lot of complicated decision making, but I think what's interesting is, coming back to your very early lesson, is using the gate of is this hitting this 50% of people be very disappointed before launching feels like a key.

Lenny Rachitsky：只是很多复杂的决策，但我认为有趣的是，回到你很早的课程，使用这扇门，在发布之前让这 50% 的人感到非常失望，感觉就像一把钥匙。

Jag Duggal: Yeah.

贾格·杜加尔：是的。

That's the one thing is we try not to scale big problems, and so we try to solve our problems when things are small.

有一件事是我们尽量不去解决大问题，所以我们试图在事情很小的时候解决我们的问题。

Our ultra violetta are higher income, rewards-based credit card.

我们的 ultra violetta 是高收入、奖励型信用卡。

We launched, it happened to be, I think it was July 4th, 2021 was the launch date, so it's easy for me to remember.

我们推出了，碰巧是，我想2021年7月4日就是推出日期，所以我很容易记住。

We started scaling it two to two and a half years later.

两到两年半后我们开始扩大规模。

Jag Duggal: In the meantime, we were in the lab figuring out where's the product market fit?

Jag Duggal：与此同时，我们在实验室里弄清楚产品市场适合哪里？

Why is it not resonating?

为什么不产生共鸣？

Oh, it's resonating with these guys.

哦，这引起了这些人的共鸣。

What do they particularly love it?

他们特别喜欢什么？

Let's iterate there.

让我们迭代一下。

And now we're at a point in the last six to nine months where we can start scaling aggressively, learning some of the credit dynamics that are different and reinventing some of those methodologies, and there's a second phase of scaling that will come.

现在，在过去的六到九个月里，我们可以开始积极扩展，了解一些不同的信贷动态并重新发明其中一些方法，第二阶段的扩展即将到来。

But yeah, one form of distraction we don't get into is fixing massive problems that we've overscaled before they were ready.

但是，是的，我们不会陷入的一种分心形式是解决我们在准备好之前就已经过度处理的重大问题。

That's a bit of an overstatement, but nothing's quite that clean, but generally true.

这有点夸张，但没有什么是那么干净，但总体来说是正确的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Coming back to your thoughts on the future of FinTech and in LATAM especially, you talked about how the vision is essentially a banker in everyone's pocket.

Lenny Rachitsky：回到您对金融科技的未来，尤其是拉丁美洲的想法，您谈到了愿景本质上是每个人口袋里的银行家。

Is there anything more there?

还有什么吗？

Just where do you think all this goes in the future in terms of FinTech banking for people in LATAM and then globally?

您认为这一切对于拉美乃至全球人民的金融科技银行业务来说未来会走向何方？

Jag Duggal: Yeah, there are a handful of principles, call them hypotheses, that we believe, and there are, I should be super clear, unproven hypotheses that will take years for us to prove out, and I'm sure there will be pivots along the way as we learn that things aren't quite the way we would've hoped at the beginning.

Jag Duggal：是的，我们相信有一些原则，可以称之为假设，而且我应该非常清楚，未经证实的假设需要我们花费数年时间才能证明，而且我确信，当我们了解到事情并不完全像我们一开始所希望的那样时，一路上会有转折。

But first off, the idea that banking should be holistic, that we need to provide a full solution across what we call the five or six financial seasons of someone's life, right?

但首先，银行业应该是整体性的，我们需要为某人生命中的五六个金融季节提供完整的解决方案，对吗？

We spend, we save, we invest, we borrow, we protect, et cetera.

我们消费、储蓄、投资、借贷、保护等等。

And that's a lot of what we've been working on for the last handful of years.

这就是我们过去几年所做的很多工作。

Jag Duggal: So one is we want to be a full solution bank.

Jag Duggal：我们希望成为一家完整的解决方案银行。

Second, something we have started, we have had some real success in on the business side, we've made some mistakes on the technical side that we are iterating through is, we are trying to build, and some might argue I'm overstating a bit, but just to be clear, we are trying to build what we believe is the first global bank on a single code base.

其次，我们已经开始做一些事情，我们在业务方面取得了一些真正的成功，我们在技术方面犯了一些错误，我们正在迭代，我们正在尝试构建，有些人可能会认为我有点夸大了，但需要澄清的是，我们正在尝试构建我们认为是基于单一代码库的第一家全球银行。

Jag Duggal: I come from a world places like Google and Facebook, Google, my first product management experience.

Jag Duggal：我来自像 Google 和 Facebook 这样的世界各地，在 Google，我的第一次产品管理经历。

I was not allowed to launch unless my product was ready for 40 countries and 40 languages.

除非我的产品适合 40 个国家/地区和 40 种语言，否则我不被允许发布。

I believe language number 40 was Finnish, so we were always making sure the thing worked in Finnish.

我相信第 40 号语言是芬兰语，因此我们始终确保该功能在芬兰语中有效。

And there are good reasons why ADVA, global online advertising, worked that way.

ADVA（全球在线广告）如此运作是有充分理由的。

It was a great principle by Google.

这是谷歌的一个伟大原则。

Jag Duggal: When you get into FinTech and into banking where the regulations are very local, where the stakes are much higher, that you serve the right 300 by 250 ad, there is a lot of pushback on that kind of, "We're just going to scale this everywhere," sort of mindset.

Jag Duggal：当你进入金融科技和银行业时，那里的法规非常本地化，风险要高得多，你要提供正确的 300 x 250 广告，这种心态会受到很多阻力，“我们只是要在任何地方扩展它”之类的心态。

And so how do you marry those two things?

那么如何将这两件事结合起来呢？

There are global banks like Citi or Santander, a lot of them have been built up through acquisition.

像花旗银行或桑坦德银行这样的全球性银行，很多都是通过收购建立起来的。

A lot of them are on distinct code bases and technology infrastructures.

其中许多都基于不同的代码库和技术基础设施。

We believe there's a lot of leverage if you can build a global bank on a single code base.

我们相信，如果您可以在单一代码库上建立一家全球银行，那么就会有很大的影响力。

That's another principle that we are trying to make real.

这是我们正在努力实现的另一项原则。

Jag Duggal: The third is that social mechanics around your financial life, not in general, not another WhatsApp, not another Twitter, and self-driving automation.

Jag Duggal：第三个是围绕你的财务生活的社交机制，不是一般的，不是另一个 WhatsApp，不是另一个 Twitter，以及自动驾驶自动化。

Why do I have to remember to pay this bill every month?

为什么我每个月都要记得支付这笔帐单？

Why do I have to remember to save for my child's university education every month?

为什么我每个月都要记得为孩子的大学教育存钱？

Why can't I keep my life goals really well-organized?

为什么我不能让我的人生目标真正井井有条？

Which is almost impossible to do.

这几乎是不可能做到的。

My wife and I open up different bank accounts at different banks just to try to do that job, which is, talk about customer workarounds.

我和我的妻子在不同的银行开设了不同的银行账户，只是为了尝试完成这项工作，即讨论客户解决方法。

How do we make the life life cycle of managing your financial life exponentially easier, leveraging these technologies and then using AI, which is an overhyped term right now, but AI to turbo-boost these tasks?

我们如何利用这些技术，然后使用人工智能，使管理财务生活的生命周期变得更加容易，人工智能现在是一个被过度炒作的术语，但人工智能可以加速这些任务？

Jag Duggal: We have a phrase we've started using at Nubank, which I really like.

Jag Duggal：我们在 Nubank 开始使用一个短语，我非常喜欢它。

David first introduced it.

大卫首先介绍了这一点。

Customers everywhere around the world live harshly unoptimized financial lives.

世界各地的客户都过着极其糟糕的财务生活。

I think that's true regardless of income level, regardless of geography, regardless of sort of life stage of where people are at.

我认为无论收入水平如何，无论地理位置如何，无论人们处于哪个人生阶段，这都是事实。

If you have a young child, it is very hard to keep track of all the things you should be doing.

如果您有一个年幼的孩子，那么很难跟踪您应该做的所有事情。

You should be opening a savings account of a specific kind that stacks advantage in this way.

您应该开设一个特定类型的储蓄账户，以这种方式积累优势。

Jag Duggal: These are problems that should be solved and should be solved soon and can be automated and where insights can be brought to bear for customers who are not super sophisticated in their level of financial education, which by the way is almost all of us.

Jag Duggal：这些问题应该得到解决，应该尽快解决，并且可以自动化，并且可以为那些金融教育水平不高的客户（顺便说一句，几乎我们所有人都是如此）提供见解。

Some of the people who think they're the most sophisticated are the ones who burn the most money in casinos that they call the stock market.

一些自认为最老练的人实际上是在赌场（他们称之为股票市场）中烧钱最多的人。

Jag Duggal: And so these are some of the principles around which we are the next phase.

Jag Duggal：这些是我们下一阶段所围绕的一些原则。

What if there were someone right next to you who could tell you what the smart move was to make today at this life stage?

如果你身边有人可以告诉你今天在这个人生阶段应该采取什么明智的行动，那会怎样呢？

You've just had a child, you've just gotten married, you've just bought a house, you just want to remodel, whatever it might be.

你刚刚有了一个孩子，你刚刚结婚，你刚刚买了房子，你只是想重新装修，无论它是什么。

We think the technology is there or thereabouts to be able to do that.

我们认为现有技术能够做到这一点。

Why not have the company that reinvents banking come out of Sao Paulo, Mexico City, Bogota?

为什么不让这家重塑银行业的公司来自圣保罗、墨西哥城、波哥大呢？

Why does it have to come out of San Francisco, New York or London?

为什么它必须来自旧金山、纽约或伦敦？

We see no reason why it can't be us, so we're going to give it a whirl.

我们认为没有理由不能由我们来完成，所以我们要尝试一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I love all of this.

我喜欢这一切。

I can't wait for this to be real.

我等不及这一切成为现实了。

You mentioned AI, so I just have a couple more questions.

你提到了人工智能，所以我还有几个问题。

You mentioned AI.

你提到了人工智能。

We have a recurring segment on this podcast called AI Corner, so let's walk over to AI Corner.

我们在这个播客上有一个反复出现的部分，称为“人工智能角”，所以让我们转到“人工智能角”。

Lenny Rachitsky: Usually I ask how you use AI in your day-to-day and your team, just like what are the tools and things you find useful to help your team operate with AI and tooling, but I'm also curious just how you're integrating AI into the product.

Lenny Rachitsky：通常我会问您如何在日常工作和团队中使用人工智能，就像您发现哪些工具和东西可以帮助您的团队使用人工智能和工具进行操作一样，但我也很好奇您如何将人工智能集成到产品中。

You touched on this a little bit, but just how AI is going to supercharge the stuff that you're building.

您稍微谈到了这一点，但人工智能将如何增强您正在构建的东西。

Jag Duggal: We use some of the tools that everyone is using these days.

Jag Duggal：我们使用了一些现在每个人都在使用的工具。

Our ringfenced version of Chat GPT and some of the standard tools, we're using them in some of the obvious initial wave ways.

我们的聊天 GPT 的隔离版本和一些标准工具，我们以一些明显的初始方式使用它们。

How can we improve our customer experience?

我们如何改善客户体验？

If you're fanatical about customers, you're fanatical about customer experience, and Nubank has always been that way.

如果您热衷于客户，那么您就会热衷于客户体验，Nubank 一直都是这样。

How can we make it even better while we're also making it more efficient?

我们怎样才能让它变得更好，同时提高效率？

So we're doing all of those things as part of our coming up the learning curve in the last 18 or so months.

因此，我们正在做所有这些事情，作为我们在过去 18 个月左右的学习曲线中的一部分。

Jag Duggal: And then we're starting to think about what are the ways in which we can build AI native products.

Jag Duggal：然后我们开始思考如何构建人工智能原生产品。

And I will not pretend to you that we've cracked that code, but a former boss of mine spoke a while ago, Fidji Simo, who's now the CEO of Instacart, but she was talking about the evolution when she was the product lead for Facebook Ads back when the big migration from the desktop to mobile was happening, and she talked about we needed to become mobile native.

我不会假装我们已经破解了这个密码，但我的前老板 Fidji Simo（现任 Instacart 首席执行官）不久前曾说过，她谈论的是当从桌面到移动设备的大迁移发生时，她担任 Facebook 广告产品负责人时的演变，她谈到我们需要成为移动原生。

Jag Duggal: And by analogy, companies today need to figure out what does AI native mean, not how do we append AI at the corners of the product, but how do we build it at the heart?

Jag Duggal：以此类推，今天的公司需要弄清楚人工智能原生意味着什么，不是我们如何将人工智能附加到产品的角落，而是我们如何在核心构建它？

What would you design if these tools existed from the start?

如果这些工具从一开始就存在，您会设计什么？

I mean, Facebook's migration to mobile is a phenomenal example of that pivot.

我的意思是，Facebook 向移动设备的迁移就是这一转型的一个典型例子。

And they like to joke, and I wasn't there at Facebook at the time, but they liked to joke at Facebook, even seven, eight years later when I joined, about the company had IPO'd and needed to find a business model and Fidji was responsible for making that happen.

他们喜欢开玩笑，当时我不在 Facebook，但他们喜欢在 Facebook 开玩笑，甚至在我加入七、八年后，他们就说公司已经 IPO，需要找到一种商业模式，而 Fidji 负责实现这一目标。

And the core of it was bringing this mobile native mindset.

其核心是带来这种移动原生思维。

So we are trying to think through what is an AI native mindset?

所以我们正在尝试思考什么是AI原生思维？

In financial services, what would that look like?

在金融服务领域，那会是什么样子？

And that requires ...

这需要...

Jag Duggal: ...

贾格·杜加尔：……

services.

服务。

What would that look like?

那会是什么样子？

And that requires analysis as much as analogy, and we are very much in the middle of that process and we don't know all of the answers.

这需要分析和类比，而我们正处于这个过程的中间，我们不知道所有的答案。

The metaphor of a what if everyone in the world, regardless of their income or wealth, had a private banker sat next to them that they could turn to whenever they needed to is a good metaphor.

如果世界上每个人，无论其收入或财富如何，都有一位私人银行家坐在他们旁边，他们可以在需要时求助，这是一个很好的比喻。

And so we are using that metaphor and seeing where it takes us.

所以我们正在使用这个比喻，看看它会把我们带向何方。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's now move on to a different corner, failure corner.

Lenny Rachitsky：现在让我们转向另一个角落，失败角落。

This is another recurring segment on the podcast.

这是播客上的另一个重复出现的片段。

Is there a story you could share of a time in your career where you failed, where something went wrong, ideally really wrong, and how that impacted and helped you in your career?

您是否可以分享一个故事，讲述您在职业生涯中失败的经历、出现问题的情况，最好是真正的错误，以及这对您的职业生涯有何影响和帮助？

Kind of a lesson you learned from that experience?

您从那次经历中学到了什么教训？

Jag Duggal: There's a pretty seminal story from my career that ultimately ended in failure and that I had to sort of rebuild from.

Jag Duggal：我的职业生涯中有一个非常具有影响力的故事，它最终以失败告终，我不得不从中重建。

I had done strategy consulting for just shy of 10 years.

我从事战略咨询工作还不到 10 年。

I decided I was going to go to grad school.

我决定去读研究生。

I was going to pivot my career into public policy and politics.

我打算将我的职业生涯转向公共政策和政治。

I was at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard and a year into that a friend of mine had, the startup he was working at Get acquired by Google I this company was premised on the idea that you could bring AdWords/AdSense style advertising to the terrestrial radio market and one of Google's, perhaps the biggest diversification bet Google was working on at the time beyond search and display, which were up and running, was let's go disrupt TV, radio, and print.

我当时在哈佛大学肯尼迪政府学院，我的一个朋友工作的初创公司被谷歌收购了一年，这家公司的前提是你可以将 AdWords/AdSense 风格的广告引入地面广播市场，而谷歌的一个可能是谷歌当时除了搜索和显示之外最大的多元化赌注，这两个赌注已经启动并运行，让我们去颠覆电视、广播和印刷业。

It was 2006.

那是2006年。

Jag Duggal: My friend convinced me to drop out of grad school, both the Kennedy school and business school.

Jag Duggal：我的朋友说服我从肯尼迪学院和商学院的研究生院退学。

I had done a year of the Kennedy school.

我在肯尼迪学院学习了一年。

I was one credit short and in business school I had done a week of and move out here to California and join Google.

我还差一个学分，在商学院学了一周后就搬到了加利福尼亚并加入了谷歌。

First off, the premise of the hypothesis proved to be wrong or at least harder than we thought, and in the following way, terrestrial radio or for that matter, TV advertising, broadcast media advertising works very differently.

首先，该假设的前提被证明是错误的，或者至少比我们想象的更难，并且在以下方面，地面广播或电视广告、广播媒体广告的工作方式非常不同。

It serves actually a different market.

它实际上服务于不同的市场。

It serves brand advertising, top of funnel kinds of goals as opposed to the bottom funnel that Google really knew well.

它服务于品牌广告，漏斗顶部的目标，而不是谷歌真正熟悉的漏斗底部。

Jag Duggal: So that was one piece.

Jag Duggal：所以那是一件。

There were all sorts of technical methodologies like reach and frequency that are really important that we simply didn't know about.

有各种各样的技术方法，例如覆盖范围和频率，这些技术方法非常重要，但我们根本不知道。

We were determined to run an auction.

我们决定进行拍卖。

We have patents to our name to this day that were how do we bring auction methodologies to work in a broadcast medium?

迄今为止，我们拥有自己的专利，那就是我们如何将拍卖方法应用于广播媒体？

Some very interesting technology.

一些非常有趣的技术。

At the end of the day, one of the things that you really needed was a surplus of inventory, ad inventory, which there actually isn't that much of relatively speaking compared to online.

归根结底，你真正需要的东西之一是库存过剩，即广告库存，与在线相比，实际上相对而言并没有那么多。

The other thing that is true is the people who control that inventory are not nearly as fragmented, so when you're negotiating with NBC or CBS or Clear Channel, they have much more leverage than in the online world of bloggers and small websites.

另一件事实是，控制库存的人并不那么分散，因此当你与 NBC、CBS 或 Clear Channel 谈判时，他们比博主和小型网站的在线世界拥有更大的影响力。

The fragmentation wasn't there, the methodology was different, it was going to be a tougher slog.

不存在碎片化，方法不同，这将是一个更加艰难的过程。

And in the meantime, Google made actually a very smart bet and this was a pivot on Google's part based on a lot of learnings from the failure on the one side and some of the success happening on the side of YouTube.

与此同时，谷歌实际上做了一个非常明智的赌注，这是谷歌方面的一个支点，基于从一方面的失败和 YouTube 方面的一些成功中吸取的大量教训。

Jag Duggal: In the meantime, Google had acquired YouTube and somewhere along the way, and this was over multiple years, Susan Wojcicki and the leadership team of Google and Google Ads in particular came to the conclusion that rather than Google chasing TV, let's have TV come to Google, I.e YouTube.

Jag Duggal：与此同时，Google 已经收购了 YouTube 以及在此过程中的某个地方，经过多年的时间，Susan Wojcicki 以及 Google 和 Google Ads 的领导团队特别得出这样的结论：与其让 Google 追逐电视，不如让电视来到 Google，即 YouTube。

And we've seen what's happened in the ensuing 15 years where cord cutting and all of the rest and now the online digital ad methodologies that Google is best in the world at can be applied in a much more straightforward way.

我们已经看到了接下来 15 年发生的事情，掐线和其他所有方法，以及现在 Google 世界上最擅长的在线数字广告方法都可以以更直接的方式应用。

But I was collateral.

但我是抵押品。

Me and some of the teams I was a part of, we were collateral damage in that evolution.

我和我所属的一些团队，在这一演变过程中受到了附带损害。

There was a point where Google did a small layoff and it was largely concentrated in my group of this acquisition.

曾经有一段时间，谷歌进行了一次小规模的裁员，而且主要集中在我这次收购的团队中。

Jag Duggal: Along the way, Google acquired YouTube, Google also acquired Double Click and Double Click served all of the brand advertising online.

Jag Duggal：在此过程中，Google 收购了 YouTube，Google 还收购了 Double Click，Double Click 提供了所有在线品牌广告。

And a couple of years later...

几年后...

Well firstly at the time I was within weeks of being laid off, having dropped out of two grad schools and moved 3000 miles west.

首先，当时我从两所研究生院退学并向西搬了 3000 英里，距离被解雇只有几周的时间。

That felt really crappy.

那感觉真的很糟糕。

There's a great song from around that time, which is a mashup from Coldplay and Jay-Z.

当时有一首很棒的歌曲，是酷玩乐队和 Jay-Z 的混搭。

Lost.

丢失的。

You should listen to the lyrics.

你应该听听歌词。

Just because I'm losing doesn't mean I've lost is literally the first line and I would have that on repeat at that time within a couple of years, within a year, probably year and a half maybe that was around the time I was married.

仅仅因为我输了并不意味着我输了，这就是第一句话，我会在几年内、一年内、可能一年半、也许那是我结婚的时候重复这句话。

So it was a lot going on.

所以发生了很多事情。

It turns out that within a year, sort of post the Double Click deal, Google decided look with YouTube as an anchor asset and some other things and the Double Click acquisition, there was a technology now pretty well established 15 years later called Real-Time Bidding, and we were going to bring the search auction methodology across the entire web for all of display advertising and we were going to use that core underlying infra to be able to build not just a spot market, direct response advertising, but a futures market which could apply to brand advertising and we are going to use that disruptive vector, something fundamentally different, not just incrementally better, to essentially dislodge Yahoo from owning brand advertising online.

事实证明，在 Double Click 交易之后的一年内，谷歌决定将 YouTube 作为锚定资产和其他一些东西，在 Double Click 收购之后，15 年后，一种称为实时竞价的技术已经相当成熟，我们将把搜索拍卖方法引入整个网络的所有展示广告，我们将使用该核心基础设施，不仅能够建立现货市场、直接响应广告，而且能够建立一个适用于品牌广告的期货市场，我们将使用这种颠覆性的载体，是一种根本上不同的东西，而不仅仅是逐渐变得更好，从根本上将雅虎从拥有在线品牌广告的地位中驱逐出去。

And I ended up getting that mandate because I had learned a lot about how brand advertising worked, 12/18 months earlier.

我最终获得了这项授权，因为我在 12/18 个月前学到了很多关于品牌广告如何运作的知识。

So that was a fairly spectacular failure.

所以这是一次相当惊人的失败。

Jag Duggal: The acquisition, by the way, ended up in arbitration, big lawsuits, depositions, and it was messy from all sorts of angles.

Jag Duggal：顺便说一句，这次收购最终以仲裁、大型诉讼、证词告终，从各个角度来看都是一团糟。

We all worked our way through that and then in the end we ended up building what is even still today, I believe Google's second largest business, which is the display advertising business.

我们都通过自己的努力完成了这个过程，最后我们最终建立了至今仍然存在的谷歌第二大业务，即展示广告业务。

But that transition was messy, excruciatingly difficult from a strategy perspective as we talked about earlier, but from a emotional as well and figuring out your way.

但这种转变是混乱的，从我们之前讨论过的战略角度来看，而且从情感角度以及弄清楚自己的出路来看，都极其困难。

Given I was new to product management, I was new to Silicon Valley, I was new to Google, I was new to advertising and I had no idea whether I was ever going to be good at it or not.

鉴于我对产品管理、硅谷、谷歌、广告都是新手，我不知道自己是否会擅长于此。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you think the lesson there is basically that song just because you're losing doesn't mean you've lost or that you're a loser and just keep going?

Lenny Rachitsky：你认为那首歌的教训基本上是不是因为你输了并不意味着你已经输了，或者你是一个失败者并且继续前进？

Jag Duggal: Yeah, bloody-mindedness is a dramatically underrated quality as we over-intellectualize from strategy to execution and all the other things.

贾格·杜加尔：是的，血腥的头脑是一种被严重低估的品质，因为我们从战略到执行以及所有其他事情都过度理性化。

Sometimes persistence is key and persistence while still being clear-eyed about what the odds of success are is also key.

有时坚持是关键，坚持的同时仍然清楚地了解成功的可能性也是关键。

Lenny Rachitsky: Jag, we've covered everything I was hoping to cover and more.

Lenny Rachitsky：Jag，我们已经涵盖了我希望涵盖的所有内容，甚至更多。

Before we get to your very exciting lightning round, is there anything that you'd love to leave listeners with or share as a last tidbit?

在我们开始您激动人心的闪电回合之前，您有什么想留给听众或作为最后的花絮分享的吗？

Jag Duggal: I would just summarize a couple of core points.

Jag Duggal：我只想总结几个核心观点。

I think the idea of perseverance and being very clear about what you're trying to achieve and how much it is worth to you and how much you're willing to fight for it, while also being very open and transparent to feedback that you're getting from people, from the market about whether what's working and what's not and knowing what parts to let go and what to hold onto really tightly is an important lesson.

我认为坚持不懈的想法，非常清楚你想要实现的目标，它对你来说有多少价值，以及你愿意为之奋斗多少，同时对你从人们、市场获得的反馈保持开放和透明，了解什么是有效的，什么是无效的，知道哪些部分需要放弃，哪些部分需要紧紧抓住，这是一个重要的教训。

Jag Duggal: I think the other thing that I would just emphasize again is, and this goes a little bit back to the debate you're trying to frame up on new category or existing category, I think within that debate there's really a synthesis that says, and I think most people would agree, if you're trying to break through as an insurgent, you cannot fight on the ground that the incumbents stand firm.

贾格·杜加尔：我想我要再次强调的另一件事是，这有点回到你试图在新类别或现有类别上构建的辩论，我认为在这场辩论中确实有一个综合，我认为大多数人都会同意，如果你试图作为叛乱分子突破，你就不能以现任者立场坚定为由进行战斗。

You have got to find a disruptive vector and that means searching hard for what is fundamentally different so that it breaks through the noise and the volume of the noise has just gone up so much in the last 15 years that I think that's even growing in importance.

你必须找到一个颠覆性的向量，这意味着要努力寻找根本不同的东西，以便它能够突破噪音，而噪音的音量在过去 15 年里已经增加了很多，我认为这甚至变得越来越重要。

Incrementally better doesn't get you there.

逐渐变得更好并不能让你到达那里。

It doesn't get you there unless you have that hook.

除非你有那个钩子，否则它不会让你到达那里。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you summarized your key takeaways.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你总结了你的关键要点。

It's something I've been wanting to do and I might ask every guest to try to summarize what they've shared because that is incredibly helpful.

这是我一直想做的事情，我可能会要求每位客人尝试总结他们分享的内容，因为这非常有帮助。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Jag Duggal: The business books, one is Play to Win.

Jag Duggal：商业书籍，一本是《Play to Win》。

I think that is a great modern strategy book that takes a lot of what's happened in the digital world and summarizes it really well.

我认为这是一本很棒的现代战略书，它吸收了数字世界中发生的很多事情，并对其进行了很好的总结。

Second one that I would highlight, which I think is a really good non-digital world summary and really distillation of the essence of strategy and as you mentioned earlier, he's coming on your podcast soon from Roger Martin is Where to Play and How to Win, which I think is a classic.

我要强调的第二个，我认为这是一个非常好的非数字世界总结，也是对策略本质的真正升华，正如你之前提到的，他很快就会出现在罗杰·马丁的播客《在哪里玩和如何获胜》中，我认为这是一个经典。

Jag Duggal: And as I mentioned, I went to study public policy and politics back 15 years ago.

Jag Duggal：正如我提到的，我 15 年前就开始学习公共政策和政治。

One of the ultimate startups and one of the ultimate startup stories in my mind is the story of Singapore and there's a autobiography of the founding prime minister of Singapore from 1965 till he retired, he passed away a couple of years ago.

我心目中最伟大的初创公司之一和最伟大的初创公司故事之一是新加坡的故事，新加坡开国总理从 1965 年到退休（几年前去世）有一本自传。

Lee Kuan Yew.

李光耀.

His book about the story of being kicked out.

他的书讲述了被赶出的故事。

Singapore being kicked out of Malaysia as a tiny in business terms, sub-scale, little country with no natural resources is I think inspiring.

新加坡作为一个商业上很小、规模较小、没有自然资源的小国家被踢出马来西亚，我认为这是鼓舞人心的。

His book is called From Third World to First, and I think it's a great story that in many ways is a parallel to what startups try to do, which is essentially go from third class to first and it's a very tricky ride and requires a ruthless honesty about where you stand and what it'll take to succeed.

他的书叫《从第三世界到第一世界》，我认为这是一个很棒的故事，在很多方面与初创公司尝试做的事情相似，这本质上是从第三世界到第一世界，这是一个非常棘手的过程，需要对你的立场和成功所需的条件保持无情的诚实。

And it usually gets prettified up when told in retrospect, but it is messy every step of the way and I think it's an awesome, unapologetic summary of what it takes to achieve greatness in a very different sphere than we're used to talking to.

回想起来，它通常会被美化，但每一步都很混乱，我认为这是一个很棒的、毫无歉意的总结，说明了如何在一个与我们习惯谈论的截然不同的领域实现伟大。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

I definitely want to read that now.

我现在绝对想读。

Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

下一个问题，您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Jag Duggal: There's the great series that my wife and I watched fairly recently on HBO called the Gilded Age, which really shines a very interesting light on how technology, this is from the late 1800s, 19th century, how the technological changes disrupts both the economic world and the world of wealth, but also the social dynamics in a society.

Jag Duggal：我和妻子最近在 HBO 观看了一部名为《镀金时代》的精彩连续剧，它确实以非常有趣的方式揭示了 19 世纪 1800 年代末的技术如何扰乱经济世界和财富世界，以及社会中的社会动态。

And it's fascinating because we're living through a new Gilded age right now and we're seeing a lot of those dynamics, but turbocharged on social media, so extra, extra exciting.

这很有趣，因为我们现在正经历一个新的镀金时代，我们看到了很多这样的动态，但在社交媒体上得到了增强，所以非常非常令人兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: Good times.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：美好时光。

Do you have a favorite product that you have recently discovered that you really like?

您最近发现有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Either an app, some physical, anything that's bringing you joy?

无论是应用程序，还是实体产品，或者任何能给您带来快乐的东西？

I

我

Jag Duggal: Was listening to your podcast with Christopher Lockett and it was on the treadmill when I was doing it and in the middle of it he mentioned a product around the idea of category design.

Jag Duggal：我正在听 Christopher Lockett 的播客，当时我正在跑步机上听播客，在播客中间他提到了一个围绕品类设计理念的产品。

I think I forget what question you asked him and he mentioned the Lomi.

我想我忘记了你问他什么问题，他提到了洛米。

Jag Duggal: Which is your kitchen countertop composter and my 13-year-old daughter who is very idealistic and has been on us to do composting for over a year now, and we bought a Lomi and we just did our fifth batch of soil last night and it works exactly as advertised and it is fantastic and I get a great amount of joy, as does the whole family actually in doing the right thing, in doing it in a modern way, in doing it in this accelerated timeframe overnight.

Jag Duggal：这是你的厨房台面堆肥机，也是我 13 岁的女儿，她非常理想主义，已经帮我们堆肥一年多了，我们买了一台 Lomi，昨晚刚刚处理了第五批土壤，它的工作原理与广告上的完全一样，太棒了，我得到了很大的快乐，整个家庭实际上都在做正确的事情，以现代的方式做，在这个加速的时间框架内过夜。

And it's really a new category of product, of a kitchen appliance that I remember Christopher talking about that creating countertop space is a precious asset and we are happy we did it.

这确实是一种新的产品类别，是一种厨房用具，我记得克里斯托弗谈到创造台面空间是一项宝贵的资产，我们很高兴我们做到了。

That's a very recent last three-week story.

这是最近三周发生的故事。

Lenny Rachitsky: This makes me so happy.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我很高兴。

I also think, Chris, this is going to be his favorite episode of all my podcasts.

我还认为，克里斯，这将是我所有播客中他最喜欢的一集。

A lot of love for him.

对他有很多爱。

That's incredible.

那真是难以置信。

I got to get me one of those.

我必须给自己买一件。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often think about, come back to, share with friends or family that's been useful in work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常思考、回想并与朋友或家人分享，这对工作或生活很有用？

Jag Duggal: In work, in the very narrow confines of work, I've used it at probably at least a dozen times in this podcast, which is about par for me for an hour and a half at work.

Jag Duggal：在工作中，在非常狭窄的工作范围内，我在这个播客中可能至少使用过它十几次，这对于我工作一个半小时来说大约是标准的。

We're in the business of fundamentally different, not incrementally better.

我们从事的是根本不同的业务，而不是逐步变得更好。

I think that's the core motto and I think it works in a slightly modified way for life as well.

我认为这是核心座右铭，我认为它也以稍微修改的方式适用于生活。

You live, you build the life you want to build and it's not going to be checking the boxes that everyone wants you to check.

你生活，你建立你想要建立的生活，它不会勾选每个人都希望你勾选的框。

There was a time when I was at a consulting firm and I was a partner and I dropped out to go back to grad school and people thought I was crazy.

曾经有一段时间，我在一家咨询公司担任合伙人，后来我退学回到研究生院，人们认为我疯了。

Then there was a time when I dropped out to the horror of my parents, I dropped out of Harvard like what the hell was I thinking?

然后有一段时间，我在父母的恐惧下退学了，我从哈佛退学了，我到底在想什么？

Jag Duggal: To come out to Silicon Valley and that went, as we talked about pear-shaped within weeks.

Jag Duggal：来到硅谷，就这样，我们在几周内谈到了梨形身材。

There was a time when I left Facebook to not that long ago, four years ago, to go join this crazy Sao Paulo-based bank.

曾经有一段时间，我离开 Facebook 不久，四年前，加入了这家总部位于圣保罗的疯狂银行。

What did I know about banking?

我对银行业了解多少？

What the hell did I know about Brazil really?

我到底对巴西了解多少？

If you are not clear on what it is you are trying to do, A, and B, if you are not willing to tolerate failure, then you're just checking the boxes of someone else's expectations.

如果你不清楚自己想要做什么，A，B，如果你不愿意容忍失败，那么你只是在检查别人的期望。

And so fundamentally different is important now it's a luxury good.

因此，根本上的不同很重要，因为它现在是一种奢侈品。

It's easy for some of us who live in the Bay Area and in Silicon Valley too.

对于我们中一些住在湾区和硅谷的人来说这很容易。

And so I'm very conscious of that, that it's a privilege and it's a luxury good, but I think everyone should strive for their version of it.

所以我非常清楚这一点，这是一种特权，也是一种奢侈品，但我认为每个人都应该为自己的版本而努力。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you extend that idea not to just business but also your life.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你将这个想法不仅扩展到商业领域，还扩展到你的生活。

I didn't even think that it goes that far.

我什至没有想到它会走那么远。

Final question, I know you have to run really soon, but I can't not ask about this.

最后一个问题，我知道你很快就要跑步了，但我不能不问这个问题。

Apparently you were convicted of smuggling mangoes at some point in your life.

显然您在一生中的某个时刻因走私芒果而被定罪。

Can you share that story?

你能分享那个故事吗？

Jag Duggal: Yes.

贾格·杜加尔：是的。

As I mentioned, I grew up in Trinidad in the Caribbean and outside my brother and my bedroom was a mango tree that was abundant and spectacular quality set of mangoes.

正如我所提到的，我在加勒比海的特立尼达长大，在我哥哥和我的卧室外面有一棵芒果树，里面有丰富而壮观的优质芒果。

And here in the US, and I can speak very definitively for California, the mangoes are subpar.

在美国，我可以非常肯定地代表加利福尼亚州，芒果的品质较差。

Forget about incrementally better.

忘记渐进更好。

They are simply subpar.

他们简直就是低于标准。

And Americans, I don't think realize what a good mango actually is and what a joy it is to behold.

而美国人，我认为他们并没有意识到什么是好芒果，也没有意识到看到它是多么令人愉悦。

Jag Duggal: Every time I would go home, I would try to bring mangoes back.

Jag Duggal：每次我回家，我都会尝试带芒果回来。

And one time coming through Miami International Airport from the Caribbean, I had a dozen mangoes wrapped in newspaper, slipped in between my clothes.

有一次从加勒比海经过迈阿密国际机场时，我把一打芒果用报纸包起来，塞在衣服中间。

And I hadn't counted on the fact that this was several months before 9/11, but I hadn't counted on the fact that the US Department of Agriculture had got smart to the fact that if people are coming from the Caribbean, they are bringing in food.

我没有预料到这是在 9/11 发生前几个月，但我也没有预料到美国农业部已经聪明地认识到，如果人们来自加勒比海，他们就会带来食物。

That is a given.

这是既定的。

And they're going to try to smuggle it by.

他们会试图走私它。

So they ran the entire plane through agricultural inspection.

于是他们对整架飞机进行了农业检查。

The guy looked through the X-ray machine and said, "You've got 11 mangoes in your bag, sir." At which point I knew I was caught.

那家伙看了看X光机，说道：“先生，您的包里有11个芒果。”就在那时我知道我被抓住了。

And I said, "Well, you've missed that one." I could see the picture.

我说：“好吧，你错过了那个。”我可以看到那张照片。

I was like, "You missed that one.

我当时想，“你错过了那个。

It's actually 12."

实际上是12。”

Jag Duggal: I ended up on a agricultural watch list, but then nine 11 happened and there were three or four years where as a management consultant, I was at an airport twice a week.

Jag Duggal：我最终被列入了农业观察名单，但后来发生了“九·一十一”事件，有三四年，作为管理顾问，我每周两次去机场。

You used to get on your ticket SSSS, which they said was random.

你以前的票是SSSS，他们说这是随机的。

Every flight for three years, I was flagged for a special screening because of my love of mangoes.

三年来，每次飞行时，由于我对芒果的热爱，我都会被标记为接受特别检查。

It was worth it.

这是值得的。

Mangoes are a misunderstood, underappreciated fruit.

芒果是一种被误解、未被充分重视的水果。

So if you grow up in the Caribbean, you can't, it's hard to go without top quality mangoes.

所以如果你在加勒比海长大，你就不能，没有优质的芒果就很难离开。

And so I still struggle here in Cali.

所以我仍然在卡利挣扎。

Lenny Rachitsky: I hope you've been rehabilitated from your life of crime at this point.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我希望你现在已经从犯罪生活中恢复过来。

Jag Duggal: I have been rehabilitated and one of the great things about working with the Brazilian companies, the quality of mangoes in Brazil are top-notch.

Jag Duggal：我已经康复了，与巴西公司合作的一大好处是，巴西的芒果质量是一流的。

So I get to partake fairly regularly these days.

所以这些天我经常参加。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's unfair.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这不公平。

I am going to ask you for your some mango recommendations.

我想请你推荐一些芒果。

Jag, I've kept you long enough.

贾格，我已经让你待得够久了。

I feel like this podcast episode was definitely not incrementally better.

我觉得这个播客节目绝对没有更好。

It was certainly fundamentally different.

这当然是根本不同的。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you if they want to reach out and maybe follow up on stuff and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系并跟进事情，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Jag Duggal: Thank you, Lenny.

贾格·杜格尔：谢谢你，莱尼。

I really enjoyed it.

我真的很喜欢它。

I appreciate it.

我很感激。

Very kind words.

非常善意的话。

Best place to find me is probably on LinkedIn, Jag Duggal, a relatively unique name, fairly easy to spot and find there.

找到我的最佳地点可能是在 LinkedIn 上，Jag Duggal，一个相对独特的名字，相当容易在那里发现和找到。

And I am always looking for stories and for opportunities.

我一直在寻找故事和机会。

I'm always looking for stories of fundamentally different.

我一直在寻找根本不同的故事。

I would love to hear those, especially when they're done against the odds or when there's a more convenient or easy choice.

我很想听听这些，尤其是当他们克服重重困难或有更方便或更简单的选择时。

And we are in the business of building the world's first social and self-driving AI-powered bank, which sounds like a lot of NBA gobbledygook I know, but Silicon Valley buzzwords, but we mean it.

我们正在致力于建立世界上第一家社交和自动驾驶人工智能驱动的银行，这听起来像我知道的很多 NBA 官话，但都是硅谷的流行语，但我们是认真的。

And so anyone who wants to join what we call the purple revolution, our brand color is purple, love to hear from you wherever you are in the world.

因此，任何想要加入我们所谓的紫色革命的人，我们的品牌颜色是紫色，无论您身在何处，都希望收到您的来信。

We have people everywhere.

我们到处都有人。

Lenny Rachitsky: And if they're interested, is it like newbank.com/careers?

Lenny Rachitsky：如果他们感兴趣，是不是像 newbank.com/careers 那样？

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

By the way, do you have a color, a name for your purple brand color?

顺便问一下，您的紫色品牌颜色有颜色吗？

Jag Duggal: We call, not we, our customers call the little purple credit card, the [foreign language 00:22:00 Hoshinyo Hosho] in Portuguese means purple.

Jag Duggal：我们称之为，不是我们，我们的客户称之为紫色小信用卡，[外语00:22:00 Hoshinyo Hosho]在葡萄牙语中的意思是紫色。

[foreign language 00:22:03 Hoshinyo] basically means little purple card.

[外语00:22:03 Hoshinyo]基本上就是小紫卡的意思。

And there was actually a moment, a point when there was a risk because of some regulatory issues that were happening in Brazil in 2016 where there was a chance that NewBank would have to shut down.

实际上，由于 2016 年巴西发生的一些监管问题，存在着风险，NewBank 可能不得不关闭。

And it turns out the Central Bank, our customers called the Central Bank and said, "You cannot let this happen." And from that day, one of the engineers said when it was just a hundred or so people, "The future is purple," and we have T-shirts all over NewBank saying the future is purple, so that's part of our origin story.

事实证明，中央银行，我们的客户给中央银行打电话说，“你不能让这种事发生。”从那天起，当公司只有一百左右人时，一名工程师就说，“未来是紫色的”，NewBank 到处都有 T 恤，上面写着未来是紫色的，所以这就是我们起源故事的一部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'll let you go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我会让你走的。

Jag, you're awesome.

杰格，你真棒。

I feel like this is going to help a lot of people.

我觉得这会对很多人有帮助。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Jag Duggal: Lenny.

贾格·杜格尔：莱尼。

Enjoyed it so much.

非常喜欢它。

Thanks a lot.

多谢。

Great to chat.

很适合聊天。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 Lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。