'Behind the product: Duolingo streaks | Jackson Shuttleworth (Group PM, Retention Team)'

Jackson Shuttleworth: ...

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：...

Duolingo is a $14 billion company, it's hitting all-time highs too, it just keeps going up, but I think it doubled in value in the past six months.

Duolingo 是一家价值 140 亿美元的公司，它也创下了历史新高，而且还在不断上涨，但我认为它的价值在过去六个月里翻了一番。

Streaks is the most impactful feature.

条纹是最具影响力的功能。

We have, right now, over 9 million users with a year plus streak.

目前，我们拥有超过 900 万用户，连续使用一年以上。

If you look at the numbers, I think it's been our biggest growth lever.

如果你看一下这些数字，我认为这是我们最大的增长杠杆。

What Duolingo really focuses on is, how do we help users build habits around language learning?

Duolingo真正关注的是，我们如何帮助用户养成语言学习的习惯？

Getting user come back the next day is the biggest problem to solve.

让用户第二天回来是要解决的最大问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's get into the motherload of learnings from the journey of streaks, talk about the key lessons, insights, and also wrong turns along the way.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们从连胜之旅中汲取大量的经验教训，讨论关键的教训、见解以及一路上的错误转折。

Jackson Shuttleworth: I'd say test everything, we've run in the last four years over 600 experiments on the streaks, so every other day.

Jackson Shuttleworth：我想说测试一切，我们在过去四年里对连续进行了 600 多次实验，所以每隔一天进行一次。

We've actually set up really good infrastructure for copy testing.

我们实际上已经为复制测试建立了非常好的基础设施。

We used to say continue, our standard CTA is continue, and we changed that to commit to my goal, and it was a massive win.

我们过去常说“继续”，我们的标准 CTA 是“继续”，我们改变了它以致力于实现我的目标，这是一次巨大的胜利。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much human psychology that you all learn through all these experiments of just how to motivate people, what motivates, what demotivates.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：人类心理学如此之多，你们都可以通过所有这些实验来学习如何激励人们，什么激励，什么消极。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Say that you played a mobile game, or that you've done it for 3,000 days in a row, I don't know, maybe that hits a little bit different than you've learned Spanish for 3,000 days in a row.

Jackson Shuttleworth：假设你玩了一款手机游戏，或者你已经连续玩了 3000 天，我不知道，也许这和你连续学了 3000 天西班牙语有点不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Jackson Shuttleworth.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天，我的客人是杰克逊·沙特尔沃思。

Jackson is a group product manager at Duolingo, leading the retention team.

Jackson 是 Duolingo 的集团产品经理，领导保留团队。

This is a different kind of episode that I'm experimenting with, where we spent the entire conversation focused on the journey and lessons of a single feature, in this case, Duolingo streaks.

这是我正在尝试的一种不同类型的剧集，我们整个对话都集中在单个功能的旅程和教训上，在本例中是 Duolingo streaks。

Duolingo is a $14 billion business, just over the past six months, they doubled in value, they're hitting all time highs in usage and market cap, they're also one of the very few successful and also the single biggest consumer app business in the world.

Duolingo 是一家价值 140 亿美元的企业，在过去的六个月里，它们的价值翻了一番，在使用量和市值方面创下了历史新高，它们也是极少数成功的企业之一，也是世界上最大的单一消费者应用程序企业。

And as you'll hear from Jackson, the streaks feature is the single most impactful feature that most contributed to this growth and success.

正如您将从杰克逊那里听到的那样，条纹功能是对这种增长和成功做出最大贡献的最有影响力的功能。

In other words, you could argue this one feature created billions of dollars of value, which to me means it is worth studying in depth.

换句话说，你可能会说这一功能创造了数十亿美元的价值，对我来说这意味着它值得深入研究。

Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation, Jackson shares the history of the streaks feature, all of the biggest wins and wrong turns they've taken along the way, what he and his team have learned about what works and doesn't work with a streaks mechanic, and also how they set up their teams to operate in a way that allows them to run over 600 experiments on this product and continue to find big wins.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，Jackson 分享了连胜功能的历史、他们在此过程中取得的所有最大胜利和错误转折、他和他的团队了解到什么对连胜机制有效、什么无效，以及他们如何设置团队以允许他们在该产品上运行 600 多次实验并继续寻找重大胜利的方式运作。

I hope to do more episodes like this on features and products that you'd love to hear more about, so leave a comment either on YouTube or on Substack, and tell me which product or feature you'd love to see me cover.

我希望针对您想了解更多的功能和产品制作更多这样的剧集，因此请在 YouTube 或 Substack 上发表评论，并告诉我您希望看到我介绍哪些产品或功能。

And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube, it's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中订阅并关注它，这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且它对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Jackson Shuttleworth.

接下来，我为您带来杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯。

Lenny Rachitsky: Jackson, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：杰克逊，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, thank you.

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：是的，谢谢。

Long time listener, first time caller.

长期倾听者，第一次来电。

Lenny Rachitsky: I appreciate it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我很感激。

So, this is going to be a really interesting conversation, I've never done an episode like this before, where we basically spent an hour, an hour and a half going into one feature of one product, but this is a very special feature, it's a very special product.

所以，这将是一次非常有趣的对话，我以前从未做过这样的一集，我们基本上花了一个小时、一个半小时来研究一个产品的一个功能，但这是一个非常特别的功能，这是一个非常特别的产品。

Have you ever spent an hour, an hour and a half just talking about this one feature with anyone?

您是否曾经花费一个小时、一个半小时与任何人谈论这个功能？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Well, internally, so when we onboard new folks to the team, we'll do, I actually just did this with somebody that joined the team recently, where we spent, yeah, I was like, hey, let's spend an hour just talking about the streak.

Jackson Shuttleworth：嗯，在内部，所以当我们为团队引入新人时，我们会这样做，实际上我刚刚和最近加入团队的人一起做了这件事，我们在那里度过了，是的，我当时想，嘿，让我们花一个小时来谈论连胜。

We got through an hour and I got through about 30% of what I wanted to share, there's just so much, we'll talk about this, but there's so much that we've learned over the years, but never anything externally like this.

我们花了一个小时，我完成了大约 30% 我想分享的内容，有太多东西，我们会讨论这个，但这些年来我们学到了很多东西，但从来没有像这样的外部东西。

I think we've shared bits and pieces of learnings, but this will be the motherload of learnings hopefully-

我认为我们已经分享了一些学习的点点滴滴，但这将有望成为学习的母题-

Jackson Shuttleworth: ...

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：...

of how Duolingo built the streak.

讲述多邻国 (Duolingo) 是如何取得连胜的。

Lenny Rachitsky: We should title this the Motherload of Learnings of Duolingo Streaks.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们应该将其命名为“Duolingo Streaks 的学习之母”。

This episode is brought to you by Pendo, the only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application.

本集由 Pendo 为您带来，Pendo 是唯一适用于任何类型应用程序的一体化产品体验平台。

Tired of bouncing around multiple tools to uncover what's really happening inside your product?

厌倦了使用多种工具来揭示产品内部到底发生了什么？

With all the tools you need in one simple-to-use platform, Pendo makes it easy to answer critical questions about how users are engaging with your product, and then turn those insights into action.

通过在一个简单易用的平台中提供您所需的所有工具，Pendo 可以轻松回答有关用户如何与您的产品互动的关键问题，然后将这些见解转化为行动。

Also, you can get your users to do what you actually want them to do.

此外，您还可以让用户做您真正希望他们做的事情。

First, Pendo is built around product analytics, seeing what your users are actually doing in your apps so that you can optimize their experience.

首先，Pendo 围绕产品分析构建，了解用户在应用程序中实际执行的操作，以便您可以优化他们的体验。

Next, Pendo lets you deploy in-app guides that lead users through the actions that matter most.

接下来，Pendo 允许您部署应用内指南，引导用户完成最重要的操作。

Then, Pendo integrates user feedback so that you can capture and analyze what people actually want.

然后，Pendo 集成用户反馈，以便您可以捕获和分析人们真正想要的东西。

And the new thing in Pendo, session replays, a very cool way to visualize user sessions.

Pendo 中的新功能是会话重播，这是一种非常酷的可视化用户会话的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm not surprised at all that over 10,000 companies use it today.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天有超过 10,000 家公司使用它，我对此并不感到惊讶。

Visit pendo.io/Lenny to create your free Pendo account today and start building better experiences across every corner of your product.

立即访问 pendo.io/Lenny 创建免费 Pendo 帐户，并开始在产品的各个角落打造更好的体验。

P.S.

附：

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您想进一步提升以产品为主导的专业知识吗？

Check out Pendo's lineup of free certification courses, led by talk product experts, and designed to help you grow in advance in your career.

查看 Pendo 的免费认证课程阵容，这些课程由演讲产品专家主导，旨在帮助您在职业生涯中取得进步。

Learn more and experience the power of the Pendo platform today at pendo.io/Lenny.

立即访问 pendo.io/Lenny 了解更多信息并体验 Pendo 平台的强大功能。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。

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当谈到确保您的公司拥有一流的安全实践时，事情很快就会变得复杂。

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现在，您可以使用单一平台 Vanta 评估风险、确保客户信任并自动实现 SOC 2、ISO 27001、HIPAA 等合规性。

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Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性，同时报告和跟踪风险。

Plus, you can save hours by security questionnaires with Vanta AI.

此外，您还可以通过 Vanta AI 进行安全调查问卷来节省时间。

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加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。

Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com/Lenny.

访问vanta.com/Lenny，即可享受Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

That's V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny.

那是 V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so for people that don't know anything about what Duolingo streaks are, can you just first give a brief explanation of what is Duolingo streaks?

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，对于那些不知道 Duolingo streaks 是什么的人，您能先简单解释一下什么是 Duolingo streaks 吗？

What is this feature all about?

这个功能到底是什么？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Well, presumably people know, Duolingo is a language learning app, the Duolingo streak tracks, currently anyway, how many days in a row you've done a lesson.

Jackson Shuttleworth：嗯，想必人们都知道，Duolingo 是一款语言学习应用程序，Duolingo streak 跟踪目前您连续多少天完成的课程。

So, you come to Duolingo, you do a lesson, your first lesson you'll start a streak, and then every consecutive day that you come use the app, you'll extend your streak.

因此，您来到 Duolingo，上了一堂课，您将在第一节课中开始连续学习，然后您连续使用该应用程序的每一天，您都会延长您的连续学习。

And I should actually put an asterisk around how many days in a row because we also have built flexibility into the feature.

实际上，我应该在连续天数上加上星号，因为我们还在该功能中内置了灵活性。

So, we have these things called streak freezes, it's like insurance for your streaks.

所以，我们有这些称为“连胜冻结”的东西，它就像是为你的连胜提供保险。

So, it's a pretty simple feature, in theory, but over time we've layered on challenges, and goal setting, and rewards, and social features...

所以，从理论上讲，这是一个非常简单的功能，但随着时间的推移，我们已经对挑战、目标设定、奖励和社交功能进行了分层......

A lot of our notifications are tied to the streak.

我们的很多通知都与连胜有关。

So, pretty simple feature to understand, but it's been a really rich feature for us to build on top of.

所以，这是一个非常容易理解的功能，但对于我们来说，它是一个非常丰富的功能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Some people might be hearing this and be like, Duolingo streaks, what's the big deal?

Lenny Rachitsky：有些人听到这句话可能会想，Duolingo 连胜，有什么大不了的？

There's other people that are like, holy, I want to learn everything I can possibly learn about Duolingo streaks, so many companies are trying to copy what you've learned from this.

还有其他人会说，天啊，我想了解有关 Duolingo streaks 的一切，所以很多公司都在试图复制你从中学到的东西。

Give people a sense of the impact that this one feature has had on Duolingo's success and growth.

让人们感受到这一功能对 Duolingo 的成功和发展所产生的影响。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And this is not just the subjective retention PM talking, I think this is our biggest feature, with the exception of the lessons.

Jackson Shuttleworth：这不仅仅是PM谈论的主观保留率，我认为这是我们最大的特点，除了课程之外。

And I think it's actually start that.

我认为这实际上是开始。

Streaks are a great engagement hack.

条纹是一个很好的参与技巧。

I'm of the opinion that any team, any app out there can introduce a streak, and if you figure it out, it probably works to retain users, but at the core, you have to have an app that people want to use, and people really like using Duolingo.

我认为任何团队、任何应用程序都可以带来连续性，如果你弄清楚了，它可能会有效留住用户，但核心是，你必须拥有一个人们想要使用的应用程序，而且人们真的很喜欢使用 Duolingo。

It's fun, it's delightful, you learn something.

这很有趣，很令人愉快，你可以学到一些东西。

And so, it allows us to layer an engagement mechanic on top of that the streak is really powerful.

因此，它使我们能够在真正强大的连胜之上添加一个参与机制。

So, it ships a disgusting amount of DAUs, again, it is one of our golden geese.

因此，它带来了令人作呕的 DAU 数量，再次强调，它是我们的金鹅之一。

And again, what's cool is that, you look at notifications, notifications for Duolingo is massive.

再说一次，很酷的是，你看看通知，Duolingo 的通知数量很大。

Us sending better, whether it's copy or timing, so many of our notifications work because they reference the streak, because users care about the streak.

我们发送得更好，无论是副本还是计时，我们的许多通知之所以有效，是因为它们引用了连胜，因为用户关心连胜。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And so, not only is it itself, us iterating on the streak a huge driver of DAUs, but it's also something that enables other really high valuable features.

Jackson Shuttleworth：因此，我们的连续迭代不仅是 DAU 的巨大驱动力，而且还能够实现其他真正高价值的功能。

I was looking up some stats before I came on, and it's pretty crazy.

在我上场之前我查了一些统计数据，这太疯狂了。

So, we have right now over 9 million users with a year plus streak.

因此，我们目前拥有超过 900 万用户，并且连续使用一年以上。

Jackson Shuttleworth: So, 9 million of our users have used Duolingo every year, almost every day, for well over a year.

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，我们有 900 万用户每年几乎每天都使用 Duolingo，持续了一年多。

Which is pretty...

哪个很漂亮...

I don't know, I like to imagine things in terms of like, okay, well, if you put all these people in a city, or in a place, where would it be?

我不知道，我喜欢想象这样的事情，好吧，好吧，如果你把所有这些人放在一个城市或一个地方，那会是哪里？

I'm like, ah, it's like a very large city, 9 million people.

我想，啊，这就像一个非常大的城市，有 900 万人口。

Lenny Rachitsky: For a year, have a year long streak.

Lenny Rachitsky：一年，连续一年。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's incredible.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太不可思议了。

I was just looking at the stock of Duolingo, so Duolingo is a $14 billion company at the time we're recording this.

我只是在查看 Duolingo 的股票，所以在我们记录这一点时，Duolingo 是一家价值 140 亿美元的公司。

It's hitting all-time highs too, it just keeps going up.

它也创下了历史新高，并且还在不断上涨。

I think it doubled in value in the past six months, something like that.

我认为它的价值在过去六个月里翻了一番，类似的事情。

And what I'm hearing from you is streaks is, other than just the core learning feature, which is just the product of Duolingo, this is the most feature in terms of growth, and in that retention specifically.

我从你那里听到的是，除了核心学习功能（Duolingo 的产品）之外，这是在增长方面最重要的功能，特别是在保留方面。

Jackson Shuttleworth: If you look at the numbers, I think pretty objectively has been our biggest growth lever for driving DAUs, and also say a lot of it's just related to how we think about growth at Duolingo.

Jackson Shuttleworth：如果你看一下这些数字，我认为非常客观地认为这是我们推动 DAU 的最大增长杠杆，而且很大程度上与我们对 Duolingo 增长的看法有关。

And a lot of what we try to do is organic growth.

我们尝试做的很多事情都是有机增长。

We think about growth just as much as bringing new users onto the platform is not losing them.

我们对增长的考虑与将新用户引入平台并不会失去他们一样重要。

If you're just bringing people onto the platform, then they churn, that's not going to be sustainable.

如果你只是将人们带入平台，那么他们就会流失，这是不可持续的。

And so, as much as we can do to keep our users coming back and actually retaining as users, it's going to give us a much easier base to continue growing DAUs off of.

因此，尽管我们可以尽一切努力让我们的用户回来并真正留住用户，这将为我们提供一个更容易的基础来继续增加 DAU。

Lenny Rachitsky: Perfect.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：完美。

Okay.

好的。

Talk about how this feature originally came to be.

谈谈这个功能最初是如何产生的。

What was the original version of it?

它的原始版本是什么？

What was the original insight that led to -

最初的洞察是什么导致了——

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, so the oldest streaks or as old as Duolingo itself.

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，最古老的条纹或者和 Duolingo 本身一样古老。

When we launched Duolingo, we launched with a streak...

当我们推出 Duolingo 时，我们推出了一系列......

And I say we, I was just graduating undergrad when Duolingo launched.

我说的是，当 Duolingo 推出时，我刚刚本科毕业。

So, this is well before my time.

所以，这远远早于我的时代。

But we launched with a streak feature.

但我们推出了条纹功能。

Initially how the feature worked was you'd come to Duolingo and you'd set a goal for yourself, and it was an XP based goal.

最初，该功能的工作原理是，您来到 Duolingo，为自己设定一个目标，这是一个基于 XP 的目标。

So, Duolingo, a little bit of nomenclature, we have an experience point based system that drives a lot of our features in the app.

所以，Duolingo，稍微有点术语，我们有一个基于经验点的系统，可以驱动应用程序中的许多功能。

And the way you'd set it is you'd say, based on what your language learning goal was, maybe you have a 10 experience point goal versus a 50 experience point goal.

你的设置方式是，根据你的语言学习目标，你可能有 10 经验点目标，而不是 50 经验点目标。

And so, extending your streak would be, hey, can you hit 50 experience points?

所以，延长你的连续记录就是，嘿，你能达到 50 点经验值吗？

If that's what you set your goal to be.

如果这就是你设定的目标。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And this worked well, I think this also speaks to how Duolingo initially grew.

Jackson Shuttleworth：这效果很好，我认为这也说明了 Duolingo 最初的发展方式。

Luis launched it with a TEDTalk, we probably had a more tech-forward user base initially, and so this whole idea of an experience points based streak system made sense.

Luis 通过 TEDTalk 推出了它，我们最初可能拥有技术更先进的用户群，因此基于体验点的连续系统的整个想法是有意义的。

But what that also meant is that you could have a user come and use the app, do multiple lessons a day, and maybe they just set too hard of a goal for themselves, and then lose their streak.

但这也意味着，你可能会让用户来使用该应用程序，每天上多节课，也许他们只是为自己设定了太难的目标，然后失去了他们的连胜。

Which, you don't need to be an expert in streaks to understand that's probably not good.

即便你不是连胜方面的专家，你也能明白这可能不太好。

The nice thing with how we initially set it up though is it really did connect with what your goal was.

我们最初设置它的好处是它确实与您的目标相关。

So, if you were serious, let's track how good you are at being a serious language learner.

因此，如果您是认真的，那么让我们来看看您作为一名认真的语言学习者的表现如何。

Jackson Shuttleworth: But I'd say one of the most impactful experiments we ran was about, this was actually as I was joining, or just after I joined we had run this experiment, was to move it from a XP based streak to just do one lesson a day, and you'd extend your streak.

Jackson Shuttleworth：但我想说，我们进行的最有影响力的实验之一是，这实际上是在我加入时，或者在我加入后不久，我们进行了这个实验，是将其从基于 XP 的连胜转移到每天只上一节课，这样你就可以延长你的连胜。

And the risk that you can sort of imagine is, well, then users kind of care less about it because it's not connected with their goal.

你可以想象的风险是，那么用户不太关心它，因为它与他们的目标无关。

And we saw none of that.

但我们什么也没看到。

This was a huge driver of DAUs, just making it easier to extend your streak, but I think really importantly it's still meaningful.

这是 DAU 的巨大推动力，只是让你更容易延长连续记录，但我认为非常重要的是，它仍然有意义。

The unit of use, and as you're thinking about building a streak, I think it's really important to think about what the unit of use of your app is.

使用单位，当您考虑建立连续记录时，我认为考虑应用程序的使用单位是什么非常重要。

The unit of use for Duolingo is doing a lesson.

Duolingo 的使用单位是做一堂课。

And so, if what we care about is users coming back every day and doing a lesson, because it shows that they're actually engaging with the app, then it doesn't hurt us to make our streak focus on just do one unit versus multiple.

因此，如果我们关心的是用户每天回来上一堂课，因为这表明他们实际上正在使用该应用程序，那么让我们的连续专注于只做一个单元而不是多个单元并不会伤害我们。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And so, that was probably the big change experiment that we ran at the time was moving from an XP-based streak to a one lesson streak.

Jackson Shuttleworth：因此，这可能是我们当时进行的一项重大变革实验，即从基于 XP 的连续学习转向一课连续学习。

It's also simple, and I think that's one of the things to think about with streaks.

这也很简单，我认为这是条纹需要考虑的事情之一。

It's always easy as a PM to have a million goals or objectives for what you want your feature to be and potentially build a more complex feature, and a one lesson streak, it's just easy for more users to understand.

作为一名 PM，为你想要的功能设定一百万个目标或目标并可能构建一个更复杂的功能总是很容易的，并且连续一堂课，这很容易让更多用户理解。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这正是我想说的。

And just for folks that aren't super familiar with XP, it's basically experience points and you get them from doing things, it's like a -

对于那些不太熟悉 XP 的人来说，它基本上是经验值，你可以通过做事来获得它们，这就像 -

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, you do stuff on Duolingo, and then based on what you did and how well you did it, we give you experience points, this actually drives a number of our features in our apps.

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，你在 Duolingo 上做一些事情，然后根据你做了什么以及做得如何，我们会给你经验值，这实际上推动了我们应用程序中的许多功能。

So, leaderboards is the big one, we have a leaderboard system, where you try over the course of the week, you battle with 29 other people, and you want to win, that's all driven by XP.

所以，排行榜是最重要的，我们有一个排行榜系统，你可以在一周内进行尝试，与其他 29 个人进行战斗，并且你想获胜，这一切都是由 XP 驱动的。

So, we do have other features in the app that really benefit from this XP system-

所以，我们的应用程序中确实还有其他真正受益于 XP 系统的功能 -

Jackson Shuttleworth: ...

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：...

the streak is just no longer one of them.

连胜不再是其中之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, so I want to talk about the journey from that point to what it is today, but a quick tangent, I saw Luis tweet just this week, someone asked him, "How do you decide whether to optimize for learning or engagement?" And he's like, "No question, everything we do is focused on engagement because you won't learn anything if you're not coming back to the app."

好的，所以我想谈谈从那时到今天的旅程，但一个快速的切线，我本周看到路易斯发推文，有人问他，“你如何决定是优化学习还是参与度？”他说，“毫无疑问，我们所做的一切都集中在参与度上，因为如果你不回到应用程序，你就不会学到任何东西。”

Jackson Shuttleworth: As an engagement PM, that was the coolest thing he could have ever said.

Jackson Shuttleworth：作为一名订婚PM，这是他说过的最酷的话。

It's, well, again, very much as subjectively I guess as an engagement PM, that's how I've...

嗯，再次，我想作为一名订婚 PM，这非常主观，这就是我的方式......

I am sure the learning folks at Duolingo will cringe when they hear it, I see myself as a learning PM as much as an engagement PM, because the easiest way not to learn on Duolingo is not to come back the next day.

我确信 Duolingo 的学习人员听到这个消息时会感到畏缩，我将自己视为学习型 PM 和参与型 PM，因为不在 Duolingo 上学习的最简单方法就是第二天不回来。

And so, if we don't make the app retentive, you will have no opportunity to engage with our learning features.

因此，如果我们不让应用程序具有记忆性，您将没有机会使用我们的学习功能。

Now, I do think that there is a long tail of learning, where, if you start to dumb down, and honestly this is something we wrestle with the streak as well, you start to dumb down the experience, and your users aren't actually learning, they're not going to care.

现在，我确实认为学习有一个长尾，如果你开始简化，老实说这也是我们与连续性斗争的事情，你开始简化体验，而你的用户实际上并没有学习，他们也不会关心。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Streaks work best when they're sitting on top of an app that users care about.

Jackson Shuttleworth：当条纹位于用户关心的应用程序之上时，效果最佳。

But yeah, if you don't come learn on Duolingo....

但是，是的，如果你不来 Duolingo 学习......

If you don't come back to Duolingo, then you're not learning.

如果您不回到 Duolingo，那么您就没有在学习。

We track a lot of this with, the work that we do, we make sure that as we're making changes to the streak, we're not hurting the learning experience and we don't have a ton of interaction with it.

我们对我们所做的工作进行了很多跟踪，我们确保在对连胜进行更改时，我们不会损害学习体验，也不会与之进行大量互动。

So, we're constantly thinking about this, but thank you Luis for saying that.

所以，我们一直在思考这个问题，但谢谢路易斯这么说。

Lenny Rachitsky: It makes sense to me.

Lenny Rachitsky：这对我来说很有意义。

Okay, so lets get into the motherload of learnings from the journey of streaks.

好吧，让我们从连胜之旅中学习到大量的知识。

So, the first version went from XP to one lesson, talk about the key lessons, insights, and also wrong turns along the way to what we see today.

因此，第一个版本从 XP 变成了一个课程，讨论了关键的课程、见解以及我们今天所看到的一路上的错误转折。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Duolingo has very much, has a strong test it philosophy, we're willing to test a lot of different...

Jackson Shuttleworth：Duolingo 有很多，有很强的测试哲学，我们愿意测试很多不同的......

Honestly, we'd much rather test it than debate it for days and days.

老实说，我们宁愿对其进行测试，也不愿对其进行日复一日的争论。

So, we actually followed up this experiment with, and this is a little bit later, with hey, what if we make it even easier to extend your streak?

所以，我们实际上跟进了这个实验，这是稍后的事情，嘿，如果我们让延长你的连续记录变得更容易呢？

And so, we actually tested, hey, if you do one exercise, just one exercise in a lesson will extend your streak.

因此，我们实际上进行了测试，嘿，如果您做一项练习，那么一堂课中只需进行一项练习即可延长您的连续练习时间。

A lot of the insight was good, you look at the funnel, hey, there's a lot of users who are starting but not finishing lessons, they're not extending your streak, the loss aversion doesn't kick in, they don't come back...

很多洞察力都很好，你看看漏斗，嘿，有很多用户正在开始但没有完成课程，他们没有延长你的连续学习时间，损失厌恶感没有出现，他们不会回来......

So, this followed that train of thought.

于是乎，就顺着这个思路来了。

What we realized when we ran this experiment is DAUs moved not one bit.

当我们进行这个实验时，我们意识到 DAU 没有移动一丁点。

And what we were doing by...

我们正在做什么...

And if we go back to unit of measure, we had dumbed down the unit of...

如果我们回到测量单位，我们就简化了……的单位。

Nobody thinks about, oh, I just want to come do one question on Duolingo, nobody thinks about that.

没有人会想到，哦，我只想在 Duolingo 上做一个问题，没有人会想到这一点。

Jackson Shuttleworth: So, we had a less clear unit of measure that we were basing our streak around, and the users that we were capturing with our streak, you come, you do one or two questions on Duolingo, then you leave, were the least engaged users imaginable.

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，我们有一个不太明确的衡量单位，我们的连胜是基于我们的连胜，而我们通过连胜捕获的用户，你来，在 Duolingo 上做一两个问题，然后离开，是可以想象到的参与度最低的用户。

And so, I think that's something also to think about as you're building your streak, is like what is the user that you're solving for?

所以，我认为当你建立连续性时，这也是需要考虑的事情，就像你要解决的用户是什么？

So, not only what is the habit that you're building for, but what is the level of commitment, and that was an example where we over indexed on a type of user who we honestly just weren't going to keep, that was a very easy shutdown decision.

所以，不仅是你要养成的习惯是什么，还有承诺的程度是什么，这是一个例子，我们对一类我们实际上不会保留的用户进行了过度索引，这是一个非常简单的关闭决定。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome story, just to comment in that real quick.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的故事，只是快速评论一下。

Just you went, let's just go to the extreme and make it just like streaks, yeah, get everyone going streaks forever, and then...

只是你走了，让我们走极端，让它就像连胜一样，是的，让每个人永远连胜，然后......

I love that it turned out and it's not bringing users that you want, and it's dumbing down experience.

我喜欢它的结果，它没有带来你想要的用户，而且还降低了体验。

It makes me think of Farmville, where you have to go and harvest your crops every, whatever, hour, that lasts for a bit and then eventually people are like, what the hell am I doing with my life?

这让我想起《Farmville》，在那里你必须每隔一个小时去收割庄稼，持续一段时间，然后最终人们会想，我这辈子到底在做什么？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, exactly.

杰克逊·沙特尔沃思：是的，完全正确。

We test every, I was looking at the numbers as well, we've run in the last four years, over 600 experiments on the streaks.

我们测试了每一个，我也在看这些数字，我们在过去四年里进行了 600 多次连续实验。

So, every other day effectively-

所以，每隔一天有效地——

Jackson Shuttleworth: ...

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：...

we're running an experiment.

我们正在进行一项实验。

And they range from big, like this, changing how the mechanic works, to let's swap a string with another string and see if that copy is better for users.

它们的范围很大，像这样，改变机制的工作方式，让我们用另一个字符串交换一个字符串，看看该副本是否对用户更好。

So, we're constantly testing on everything.

所以，我们不断地测试一切。

I do think that, I'd be more careful running that experiment now, at some point your streak gets big enough that, again, I got 9 million users on the streak, I got to be really careful...

我确实认为，我现在会更加小心地进行该实验，在某个时候，你的连续记录变得足够大，我再次获得了 900 万用户，我必须非常小心......

Those are our best retaining users, you got to be careful.

这些是我们最好的留存用户，你必须小心。

But in the early days of the streak, I'd say test everything.

但在连胜的早期，我会说测试一切。

See what...

看看什么...

Don't get super caught up in it has to be like this, just test a bunch of stuff and see what speaks most to users.

不要陷入这样的困境，只需测试一堆东西，看看什么对用户来说最有意义。

Because I think, again, you will constantly be surprised by the insights that you get from whether you...

因为我认为，你会不断地对你从是否……中获得的见解感到惊讶。

We shut down about half of our experiments, so half of our experiments lose, we still learned a ton by virtue of running them.

我们关闭了大约一半的实验，所以一半的实验失败了，但我们仍然通过运行它们学到了很多东西。

So, super, super valuable.

所以，超级非常有价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's actually a good success rate, a lot of companies have only 20% of experiments be positive.

Lenny Rachitsky：这实际上是一个很好的成功率，很多公司只有 20% 的实验是积极的。

What's your policy on if it's neutral, do you ship it, or do you kill it?

如果它是中立的，你的政策是什么，你是运送它，还是杀死它？

Jackson Shuttleworth: It really depends.

Jackson Shuttleworth：这确实取决于情况。

If we're adding something and it's neutral, we tend to shut it down because it's just more cognitive load, it's something that we're going to have to start building around, a new UI element that we have to figure out how it fits into our system.

如果我们要添加一些东西并且它是中性的，我们倾向于将其关闭，因为它只是更多的认知负担，这是我们必须开始构建的东西，一个新的 UI 元素，我们必须弄清楚它如何适合我们的系统。

I'd say when we do ship a neutral experiment is, something that we have real conviction around, okay, yeah, maybe this was neutral but it's going to give us a new platform to then build on top of, so that experience might be neutral, but now we can build these DAU positive experiments.

我想说，当我们确实推出中立实验时，我们有真正的信念，好吧，是的，也许这是中立的，但它将为我们提供一个新的平台，然后在此基础上进行构建，因此体验可能是中立的，但现在我们可以构建这些 DAU 积极的实验。

My general take there is though, in that case, build that in as part of your V1 so that you make sure that at least your hypothesis around this roadmap has play should probably be the case, but in general, shutting down a neutral experiment so you don't introduce more complexity to the app is the way we tend to go.

不过，我的一般看法是，在这种情况下，将其构建为 V1 的一部分，以便至少确保您围绕此路线图的假设发挥作用应该是这样，但总的来说，关闭中立实验，这样就不会给应用程序带来更多复杂性，这是我们倾向于采取的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Makes sense.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有道理。

All right, what else?

好吧，还有什么？

What else have you learned along the journey?

在旅途中你还学到了什么？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Well, maybe I can talk about a few different ways that we structure, a few different themes that I think we lean on.

Jackson Shuttleworth：嗯，也许我可以谈谈我们构建的几种不同方式，我认为我们依赖的一些不同主题。

So, the first is focusing on the zero to seven day user experience.

因此，首先是关注零到七天的用户体验。

And I would say this is, if you look at whatever our breakdown of experiments are, we run definitely more than average number of experiments on getting users to go from a zero to seven day streak.

我想说的是，如果你看看我们的实验细目，我们为了让用户从零天连续到七天连续进行的实验数量绝对超过平均水平。

And a lot of this is because we've looked at the data for our retention curves, and what we found is that once you get to seven days, loss aversion kicks in, and you retain.

这很大程度上是因为我们查看了保留曲线的数据，我们发现，一旦达到 7 天，损失厌恶就会开始出现，您就会保留。

So, going from a one to a two-day streak, huge jump in retention, two to three day streak, slightly less but still huge and it's up until day seven.

因此，从一天连续到两天，留存率大幅跃升，连续两到三天，略有减少，但仍然很大，直到第七天。

Once you hit day seven, it flans out.

一旦你进入第七天，它就会消失。

And it's not to say that if you have a 30-day streak, you're way more attentive than day seven, but not in the order of magnitude that it is from day one through seven.

这并不是说，如果你连续 30 天，你就会比第七天更加专心，但程度并不如从第一天到第七天那么集中。

Jackson Shuttleworth: So, we do a ton of work to get users to that point where loss aversion kicks in, and then they don't want to lead the app.

Jackson Shuttleworth：因此，我们做了大量工作来让用户产生厌恶损失的情绪，然后他们就不想领导该应用程序。

One of the fun ones that we did, and it's honestly as much about process as it is about the feature itself, was we have a feature called streak goal, and it is...

我们所做的有趣的事情之一，老实说，它与过程和功能本身一样重要，我们有一个称为“连胜目标”的功能，它是......

Again, so much of this stuff seems so obvious in retrospect, but it was really novel at the time.

再说一次，现在回想起来，很多东西似乎都是显而易见的，但在当时确实很新颖。

We had this idea of like, hey, maybe we'll just goal users to hitting a certain streak length.

我们有这样的想法，嘿，也许我们只是让用户达到一定的连续长度。

As you can imagine, this is pretty powerful user psychology, and we started with the simplest version of this.

正如你可以想象的，这是非常强大的用户心理，我们从最简单的版本开始。

And this is how Duolingo does a lot of our testing.

这就是 Duolingo 进行大量测试的方式。

Rather than design the big complex feature for V1, just do the simplest encapsulation of what that feature can be, see if it has legs, and then just add to it iteratively over time, this is partially how we get to 600+ experiments on streaks, they're not all big ones.

与其为 V1 设计大型复杂功能，不如对该功能进行最简单的封装，看看它是否有腿，然后随着时间的推移迭代地添加它，这就是我们进行 600 多个连续实验的部分原因，它们并不都是大实验。

Jackson Shuttleworth: But we started...

Jackson Shuttleworth：但我们开始......

And it was funny, we actually took a learning from our monetization win teams.

有趣的是，我们实际上从我们的盈利团队那里学到了一些东西。

One of the strings that they had, the pieces of copy that they had, worked really, really well was, I think it was your 5.6 x more likely to finish the course if you subscribe to Plus.

他们拥有的字符串之一，他们拥有的副本片段，效果非常非常好，我认为如果您订阅 Plus，您完成课程的可能性会增加 5.6 倍。

Now, it's Super, our subscription.

现在，这是我们的订阅超级版。

It was a really good hook that if you really cared, you'd sign up.

这是一个非常好的钩子，如果你真的关心，你就会注册。

And so, we had a similar thought, where it's like, oh, let's just tell you how much more likely you are to finish the course if you get a 30-day streak.

所以，我们有类似的想法，就像，哦，让我们告诉你，如果你连续 30 天完成课程，你完成课程的可能性有多大。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And so, we started with that, and I think it was like you're seven times more likely to finish the course if you have a 30-day streak, and just that message when you started your streak, I telling you that, was awesome.

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，我们就从这个开始，我认为如果你连续 30 天，你完成课程的可能性会增加七倍，我告诉你，当你开始连续时的信息非常棒。

Huge win.

巨大的胜利。

Indicating an outcome...

表明结果...

And Duolingo doesn't have, we have a gem economy but we don't actually have, it's all you learning.

Duolingo 没有，我们有宝石经济，但我们实际上没有，这都是你学习的。

But being able to actually talk about it in terms of the outcomes that a user would think about, in this case, trying to finish the course, was a huge win.

但能够根据用户会想到的结果来实际谈论它，在这种情况下，试图完成课程，是一个巨大的胜利。

So, this is where we started and we're like, ah, goal setting, all right, we should go much harder on this.

所以，这就是我们开始的地方，我们就像，啊，目标设定，好吧，我们应该在这方面更加努力。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, we found our thing, and now let's just beat the heck out of it.

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，我们找到了我们的东西，现在让我们全力以赴吧。

So, we followed that up with another experiment, where we tested different lengths.

因此，我们接着进行了另一个实验，测试了不同的长度。

So, we test 14 days and 50 days, and we found that they were all good, but they appealed to different users.

所以，我们测试了14天和50天，我们发现它们都很好，但它们吸引了不同的用户。

And so, we started to realize, all right, well, we probably need to be more thoughtful about who we give these different options to.

因此，我们开始意识到，好吧，我们可能需要更加深思熟虑地考虑向谁提供这些不同的选择。

And so, then we followed that experiment up with, all right, let's start with 30 days, and then we're going to let you opt out, we'll say, no, I don't think I can hit it.

所以，然后我们继续这个实验，好吧，让我们从 30 天开始，然后我们会让你选择退出，我们会说，不，我不认为我能做到。

And our thinking was, and then if you say no, we'll hit you with an easier goal.

我们的想法是，如果你拒绝，我们会用一个更简单的目标来打击你。

Because we just wanted to get you to commit to a goal.

因为我们只是想让你致力于一个目标。

And this was a fascinating one because it was a good win to give users that easier goal, to try to capture them before they said no, but it was almost just as big a win to add that opt out button.

这是一个令人着迷的胜利，因为它为用户提供了一个更简单的目标，在他们拒绝之前尝试捕获他们，这是一个很好的胜利，但添加选择退出按钮几乎同样是一个巨大的胜利。

Jackson Shuttleworth: So, we tested separately, and I'm a huge fan of testing way too many arms for an experiment, just to be able to isolate your hypotheses, but we captured just what happens if we add an opt-out button, and adding an opt-out button...

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，我们分别进行了测试，我非常喜欢在实验中测试太多的手臂，只是为了能够隔离你的假设，但我们捕捉到了如果我们添加一个选择退出按钮会发生什么，并添加一个选择退出按钮......

And you would think, as a PM, oh, now users might not engage with my feature, that's a bad thing, but it was a huge win to let them do that.

你可能会想，作为产品经理，哦，现在用户可能不会使用我的功能，这是一件坏事，但让他们这样做是一个巨大的胜利。

And the learning here was that this intentionality of saying, no, I want it...

这里学到的是，这种说“不，我想要它”的意向性......

Previously it was just a continue button, but now it's like, no, I want to hit 30 days, and having that be an intentional decision for them, yes or no, even though again, this had no impact, or no impact past this screen.

以前它只是一个继续按钮，但现在就像，不，我想达到 30 天，这对他们来说是一个有意的决定，是或否，尽管同样，这没有影响，或者没有影响超过这个屏幕。

Everything that I'm talking about now was just that screen that day, and then was all thrown out.

我现在所说的一切都只是那天的那个屏幕，然后就全部被扔掉了。

So, that optionality was a huge insight, and so because of that, we built a goal setting feature where you could choose between different goals, giving users that optionality was likewise a huge win.

因此，这种选择性是一个巨大的洞察力，因此，我们构建了一个目标设定功能，您可以在不同的目标之间进行选择，为用户提供选择性同样是一个巨大的胜利。

Jackson Shuttleworth: I'll say one final learning on this, again, you talk about friction, and good and bad friction, we thought once we built a goal picker screen, where you could pick between different streak lengths, we were like, oh, well, let's recommend that users do a harder goal, thinking that okay, well, a harder goal is going to be better retention, and we'll the preselect harder goal for them.

Jackson Shuttleworth：我要说最后一个学习，再一次，你谈论摩擦，以及好的和坏的摩擦，我们认为一旦我们构建了一个目标选择器屏幕，你可以在不同的连续长度之间进行选择，我们就像，哦，好吧，让我们建议用户做一个更难的目标，认为好吧，好吧，一个更难的目标将是更好的保留，我们将为他们预先选择更难的目标。

And based on all the learnings that I just shared with you, you probably imagine lost pretty significantly, we realized that yes, we could speed users through the screen more by virtue of picking a goal for them, but that act of selecting, I think it's 30 days, I think it's 14 days, was where we were getting so much of the engagement from this feature.

根据我刚刚与您分享的所有经验教训，您可能会想象损失相当大，我们意识到，是的，我们可以通过为用户选择一个目标来加快用户浏览屏幕的速度，但是选择的行为，我认为是 30 天，我认为是 14 天，是我们从这个功能中获得如此多参与度的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much human psychology that you all learn through all these experiments of just how to motivate people, what motivates, what demotivates, it feels like you guys should write a book on human psychology and motivation.

Lenny Rachitsky：人类心理学如此之多，你们都通过所有这些实验学到了如何激励人们，什么激励，什么消极，感觉你们应该写一本关于人类心理学和动机的书。

Jackson Shuttleworth: I feel very much like a amateur armchair psychologist with everything that, at least as far as people who want to learn languages on their phone go, I really understand those folks.

Jackson Shuttleworth：我感觉自己就像一个业余的纸上谈兵的心理学家，至少对于那些想通过手机学习语言的人来说，我真的很理解这些人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：对。

So, one theme I'm hearing here so far is you guys are basically just mining for gold, just looking for a vein in some mine, and once you hit it you're like, ooh, this worked, you just go crazy on just testing all kinds of things to see how far you can take that one little thread.

所以，到目前为止，我在这里听到的一个主题是，你们基本上只是在开采黄金，只是在某个矿井中寻找矿脉，一旦你找到了它，你就会说，哦，这成功了，你只是疯狂地测试各种东西，看看你能把这条小线索走多远。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, and I think, I shared how this idea came partially from a monetization win that they had, I think there's a lot of, because Duolingo runs...

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，我想，我分享了这个想法部分来自于他们所获得的货币化胜利，我认为有很多，因为 Duolingo 运行......

I don't know what percentile we're in, but it's got to be a very high percentile of per capita experiments run for a company, based on company size.

我不知道我们处于哪个百分位，但根据公司规模，这一定是公司进行的人均实验的一个非常高的百分位。

We're just constantly learning so many things and there's a really great cross-sharing of monetization say, hey, this thing worked for us, is that something you can use?

我们不断地学习很多东西，而且货币化方面有一个非常好的交叉共享，比如说，嘿，这个东西对我们有用，你可以使用它吗？

So, I'd say it's rare that we go into something where it's just like, let's just try something.

所以，我想说，我们很少会做一些类似“让我们尝试一下”的事情。

Typically, we have some insight because of all of these experiments that we've run, that hey, if we do this, I don't know, it's one here, or it's worked here, it's driven this user engagement, if we massage that and try in this scenario, or a different screen, we come in at least with a strong hypothesis of this will work.

通常，我们有一些洞察力，因为我们已经进行了所有这些实验，嘿，如果我们这样做，我不知道，它在这里，或者它在这里起作用，它驱动了这种用户参与度，如果我们按摩并尝试在这种情况下，或不同的屏幕，我们至少有一个强有力的假设，这会起作用。

Jackson Shuttleworth: A lot of times we do look, and we're like, a lot of the apps that we look at actually are games themselves, so it's like, all right, you're playing Royal Match, or there's the new Pokemon trading card game that I'm spending way too much time on, you look at these games and see what they're doing, and it's really good fodder for what we can do.

Jackson Shuttleworth：很多时候我们确实会看，我们看的很多应用程序本身就是游戏，所以就像，好吧，你在玩《Royal Match》，或者我花了太多时间在新的口袋妖怪集换式卡牌游戏上，你看看这些游戏，看看它们在做什么，这对我们能做的事情来说确实是很好的素材。

But a lot of times you're at least going in with a strong hypothesis based on what you've seen work elsewhere.

但很多时候，你至少会根据你在其他地方看到的情况提出一个强有力的假设。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

So, just to double down on that point, it's not just random experiments, it's here's a hypothesis we're fairly confident, or has a chance to be true, let's try it.

因此，为了强调这一点，这不仅仅是随机实验，这是一个我们相当有信心的假设，或者有机会成为现实，让我们尝试一下。

It's not just let's just try everything?

不是让我们什么都尝试一下吗？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah.

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：是的。

And I think that how strongly you feel about the hypothesis directly ties to how hard that experiment is.

我认为你对这个假设的感受有多强烈直接关系到这个实验的难度。

With copy, for instance, we've actually set up really good infrastructure for copy testing.

例如，对于复制，我们实际上已经为复制测试建立了非常好的基础设施。

I'm of the opinion that companies should run, as long as you have the user base to do it, copy test constantly.

我认为公司应该运行，只要你有用户基础就可以，不断地复制测试。

The amount of copy tests that we've had that have won, and I don't know, you just try things and you figure out what wins is definitely legion, and massive wins from little copy changes.

我们已经进行的获胜的副本测试数量，我不知道，你只要尝试一下，然后找出获胜的内容，这绝对是大量的，并且从小的副本更改中获得了巨大的胜利。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example of that, of just the impact?

Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个例子来说明其影响？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Going back to that goal screen, we used to say Continue, our standard CTA is Continue, and we changed that to Commit To My Goal, and it was a massive win.

Jackson Shuttleworth：回到目标屏幕，我们过去常说“继续”，我们的标准 CTA 是“继续”，然后我们将其更改为“致力于我的目标”，这是一次巨大的胜利。

And again, it was like, okay, users tapping on that, what are we asking them to do?

再说一遍，好吧，用户点击它，我们要求他们做什么？

Commit to the goal, what is that going to lead them to do?

致力于目标，这会引导他们做什么？

Commit, not churn.

承诺，而不是流失。

Just that little copy change, that one time, right there, led to huge wins.

只是那一点点的文案改变，就在那一次，带来了巨大的胜利。

And copy changes are so cheap, it's just you translate, for us, we have a lot of users all over the world, and a lot of UI languages, but just come up with a bunch of ideas, translate some strings...

而且副本更改是如此便宜，只需您翻译即可，对于我们来说，我们在世界各地有很多用户，有很多 UI 语言，但只是想出一堆想法，翻译一些字符串......

This is one where the feedback that you'll typically get from Luis.

您通常会从 Luis 那里得到反馈。

So, all of our changes at Duolingo go through product review that are reviewed by Luis, so Luis reviews every single change that we propose, every experiment that we run.

因此，我们在 Duolingo 的所有更改都会经过 Luis 审核的产品审核，因此 Luis 会审核我们提出的每一项更改以及我们进行的每一项实验。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Typically with copy, he's just like, I don't know, test it, there's nothing better than be told by Luis, I don't think this is going to win, but sure, if you want to.

Jackson Shuttleworth：通常对于文案，他会说，我不知道，测试一下，没有什么比路易斯告诉我更好的了，我不认为这会赢，但当然，如果你想的话。

And a lot of times, to his credit, he's right, and a lot of times our intuition was right, but it's just so cheap to do it.

很多时候，值得赞扬的是，他是对的，很多时候我们的直觉是对的，但这样做的成本太低了。

I think when the lift is smaller, it's great to have a hypothesis, but you don't need to beat it up too much.

我认为当升力较小时，有一个假设是很好的，但你不需要对它进行太多的验证。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, on this thread, I didn't realize Louis reviews everything you're planning to change, and this may be the answer to the question I was going to ask, which is, one of the criticisms of running a product and company this way, of just experimenting constantly with all these micro improvements and changes, is it can lead to something, like a monstrosity of a product and experience that isn't consistent and cohesive, and just that often happens.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，在这个帖子中，我没有意识到路易斯会审查你计划改变的所有内容，这可能是我要问的问题的答案，即以这种方式运行产品和公司的批评之一，只是不断地尝试所有这些微观改进和变化，它是否会导致某种东西，比如产品和体验的怪物，不一致和有凝聚力，而这种情况经常发生。

Is the solution to that having the founder basically review all the changes?

解决方案是让创始人基本上审查所有变更吗？

Is there anything else y'all do to avoid it becoming Farmville or whatever, is a good example of that?

你们还有什么办法可以避免它变成《Farmville》或其他什么，就是一个很好的例子吗？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, our product review structure where we've got our head of product design, one of the lead, the product management leaders, and then Luis, NPR.

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，我们的产品审查结构中有我们的产品设计主管、其中一位领导者、产品管理领导者，然后是 NPR 的路易斯。

And because they see everything, and they have a really high product bar, and so that helps.

因为他们看到了一切，而且他们有非常高的产品标准，所以这很有帮助。

I think over time we just, as PMs, have to look at, okay, where is our feature headed?

我认为随着时间的推移，作为产品经理，我们必须考虑我们的功能将走向何方？

And so, we do this with the streak at least on a quarterly basis, to look at, okay, well, what have we learned, how has our streak developed, and how do we imagine this going in near future?

因此，我们至少每季度都会对连续记录进行此操作，看看我们学到了什么，我们的连续记录是如何发展的，以及我们如何想象在不久的将来会发生这种情况？

It's easy to do, and in some sort of awful local maxima, if you're not constantly looking at your roadmap and you don't have a clear strategy.

如果您不经常查看路线图并且没有明确的策略，那么这很容易做到，并且在某种可怕的局部最大值中。

For me it's like, if you have a clear strategy where your feature is going, hopefully all of those A/B tests are not just done to get some cheap gain, they're done with a long-term goal in mind.

对我来说，如果你有一个明确的策略，你的功能将走向何方，希望所有这些 A/B 测试不仅仅是为了获得一些廉价的收益，而是为了一个长期目标。

Jackson Shuttleworth: I do think though, and we do this every now and then with the streak, eventually you just hit a local maxima, and you say, you talked about launching neutral experiments, this is a great example, where it's like all right, cool, now we need to throw a bunch of this stuff out, based on all the learnings, can we reset this real estate, can we reset this UI, reset this feature, in such a way that is just as good as what we have now but is way more plain or simple, that we can, again, start to layer on?

Jackson Shuttleworth：我确实认为，我们时不时地这样做，最终你只是达到了局部最大值，你说，你谈到启动中性实验，这是一个很好的例子，这很好，很酷，现在我们需要根据所有的经验，扔掉一堆这样的东西，我们可以重置这个房地产，我们可以重置这个用户界面，重置这个功能，以一种与我们现在拥有的一样好的方式，但更简单或简单，我们可以再次开始分层吗？

Those are really hard experiments to get to win obviously, because they are so optimized, but they're really important to do, otherwise, yeah, you just end up with a kitchen sink of a feature.

显然，这些都是很难获胜的实验，因为它们是如此优化，但它们确实很重要，否则，是的，你最终只会得到一个具有功能的厨房水槽。

Lenny Rachitsky: One other tidbit I just want to mention, an advantage you all have that other companies don't have is people want to learn a language, and so getting pushed to come back to an app for something that they want to do, it's not an advantage a lot of products have.

Lenny Rachitsky：我只想提一下另一个趣闻，你们都拥有其他公司没有的优势，那就是人们想要学习一门语言，因此被迫回到应用程序来完成他们想做的事情，这不是很多产品所拥有的优势。

So, anything you want to add there, of just like this is why Duolingo might be a little different from what you're working on.

因此，您想要添加的任何内容，就像这样，Duolingo 可能与您正在开发的内容略有不同。

Jackson Shuttleworth: That is definitely a benefit, if I had an app...

Jackson Shuttleworth：如果我有一个应用程序，这绝对是一个好处......

And that this is actually why I think a lot of mobile games do streaks differently, because to say that you played a mobile game, and as somebody who plays a lot of mobile games, that you've done it for 3000 days in a row, I don't know, maybe that hits a little bit different than you've learned Spanish for 3000 days in a row.

这实际上就是为什么我认为很多手机游戏的连续表现有所不同，因为说你玩了一款手机游戏，并且作为一个玩了很多手机游戏的人，你已经连续玩了 3000 天，我不知道，也许这与你连续学习西班牙语 3000 天有点不同。

I think the comparison set is much larger though, than a lot of companies give themselves credit for, and I think that there's...

我认为比较集比许多公司自认为的要大得多，而且我认为……

There's a lot of ways that companies think about their...

公司有很多方式思考他们的...

There are very few companies I imagine out there in the world saying, oh, we don't do some degree of good for our users...

我想象世界上很少有公司会说，哦，我们没有为我们的用户做某种程度的好事......

Even if it's like a game, it's like, I don't know, you're giving somebody a moment away from the craziness of their lives.

即使这就像一场游戏，我也不知道，你是在给某人暂时远离疯狂生活的机会。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And so, I do think though that is contingent on companies who are going to figure out if a streak works for them, to figure out how can you frame the streak in such a way that a user does feel good about it.

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，我确实认为这取决于公司是否会弄清楚连续性是否适合他们，以及如何以用户确实感觉良好的方式来构建连续性。

And it's easier for a Duolingo, but I think there's creative ways to phrase this for users.

对于 Duolingo 来说这更容易，但我认为有一些创造性的方法可以为用户表达这一点。

The other thing maybe just on that that I'll say is, the streak works really well for Duolingo because with language learning it's really hard to see day-to-day progress in becoming more fluent.

我要说的另一件事可能是，这种连续性对于 Duolingo 来说非常有效，因为在语言学习中，很难看到日常的进步变得更加流利。

And fluency is not even the right word, it's like becoming better at Spanish or whatever, it is a years long process for someone to get better at a language.

流利甚至不是正确的词，就像变得更好地掌握西班牙语或其他什么一样，对于一个人来说，提高一门语言的能力是一个长达数年的过程。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Duolingo makes it easier, but you still got to put in thousands of hours if you're going to reach C1 or C2 fluency, and that is really hard to track on a day-to-day, and so the streak works really well for us because we might not be able to tell you, hey, you now know 0.01% more Spanish, but we can show you, hey, you've gotten your streak a little bit higher.

Jackson Shuttleworth：Duolingo 让它变得更容易，但如果你要达到 C1 或 C2 流利程度，你仍然需要投入数千个小时，而这在日常中确实很难跟踪，所以这种连续记录对我们来说非常有效，因为我们可能无法告诉你，嘿，你现在西班牙语多了 0.01%，但我们可以向你展示，嘿，你的连续记录已经提高了一点。

And so, I think this works particularly well when you're an app that is doing something that's going to be sensed or felt over a longer term to help contextualize that progress in a way that makes more sense, or at least feels more tangible to a user.

因此，我认为当你的应用程序正在做一些长期被感知或感受到的事情时，这种方法特别有效，可以帮助用户以一种更有意义的方式将进展情境化，或者至少让用户感觉更切实。

Lenny Rachitsky: Great, that was a great context.

Lenny Rachitsky：太棒了，这是一个很棒的背景。

Empowering to a lot of companies that aren't necessarily doing language learning.

为许多不一定进行语言学习的公司提供支持。

Okay.

好的。

So, it took us on a long tangent away from lessons and experiments you ran along the journey of iterating on the streak.

因此，这让我们远离了您在连续迭代过程中所学到的教训和实验。

So, a few things you've shared so far is just, it started with this XP idea, and then went to a lesson, then you iterated on ways to make it simpler, maybe harder, you added streak goals, where you commit to I'm going to hit a certain goal of streak.

所以，到目前为止你分享的一些事情只是，它从这个 XP 想法开始，然后上了一堂课，然后你迭代了让它变得更简单，也许更困难的方法，你添加了连续目标，你承诺我将达到某个连续目标。

What else?

还有什么？

What else have you found that has worked, didn't work, lessons learned?

您还发现哪些有效、无效的经验教训？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Again, sticking with this one to seven day streak, the idea of a streak, particularly probably to this audience, is obvious.

Jackson Shuttleworth：再说一次，坚持一到七天的连续，连续的想法，特别是对于这些观众来说，是显而易见的。

Like, oh, it's a streak, it just counts how many days.

就像，哦，这是一个连胜，它只计算有多少天。

We've realized over time that a lot of users do not understand how a streak works, and it can be as small as, well, I don't understand how streak freezes work, or I don't...

随着时间的推移，我们意识到很多用户不了解连胜是如何工作的，而且它可以小到，好吧，我不明白连胜冻结是如何工作的，或者我不......

Like my mom the other day was talking to you about it, she's like, "Oh, I didn't use Duolingo and I come back and my streak's still there." So, there's certain elements of the feature that we can do better at explaining, but even what a streak is, it's tracking how many days that I've used the app, yeah, the more that we can make the feature easily comprehensible to users, the more retentive it is.

就像我妈妈前几天和你谈论这件事一样，她就像是，“哦，我没有使用 Duolingo，我回来后我的连胜仍然存在。”因此，我们可以更好地解释该功能的某些元素，但即使连续是什么，它也会跟踪我使用该应用程序的天数，是的，我们越能让用户轻松理解该功能，它就越容易记住。

And we've run a number of experiments to do this.

我们已经进行了许多实验来做到这一点。

Jackson Shuttleworth: You asked about early easy copy changes that we made.

Jackson Shuttleworth：您询问了我们早期所做的简单副本更改。

Actually, this is my first win experiment when I joined Duolingo was, when you start a streak, we have little copy at the bottom of the screen that just, I don't know, it's like flavor copy, we use it to celebrate you, or give you context, and I ran some tests that just tried to in eight words explained what a streak was, that was it.

事实上，这是我加入 Duolingo 时的第一个胜利实验，当你开始连胜时，我们在屏幕底部几乎没有任何副本，我不知道，这就像风味副本，我们用它来庆祝你，或者为你提供背景信息，我进行了一些测试，只是试图用八个字解释什么是连胜，就是这样。

And it was a massive win because it really dumbed down here is exactly how the streak worked, and it really helped users just understand what they needed to do.

这是一个巨大的胜利，因为它确实简化了连胜的运作方式，并且它确实帮助用户了解他们需要做什么。

And I think this is something that's like, you constantly got to remind yourself, particularly if you work in tech and you're building cool tech features, but your user base is not a bunch of tech workers, to think about, all right, who is my audience?

我认为这就像，你必须不断提醒自己，特别是如果你在科技领域工作并且你正在构建很酷的技术功能，但你的用户群不是一群科技工作者，那么要想想，好吧，谁是我的受众？

And for us it's not just tech workers, it's not people in America, it's people all over the world of all ages of all cultures, and so making sure that your feature is even something as simple as the streak is understandable is critical.

对我们来说，这不仅仅是技术工作者，也不是美国人，而是世界各地、各个年龄段、各种文化的人们，因此确保您的功能甚至像连胜一样简单是可以理解的，这一点至关重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: What was the actual copy, do you remember?

Lenny Rachitsky：你还记得真正的副本是什么吗？

Jackson Shuttleworth: It was...

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：那是……

I think it's still on the app, it's like, "Start a day to extend your streak, but miss a day and it resets," something like that.

我认为它仍然在应用程序上，就像“开始一天来延长你的连续记录，但错过一天就会重置，”类似的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: That makes sense to me.

Lenny Rachitsky：这对我来说很有意义。

Very clear.

非常清楚。

Lenny Rachitsky: In eight words, I love that.

Lenny Rachitsky：用八个字来说，我喜欢这个。

Okay.

好的。

And then, when you say massive win by the way, just to give people a reference point, what does that look like?

然后，当你顺便说一下巨大的胜利时，只是为了给人们一个参考点，那是什么样子的？

What is a massive win in this scale?

这种规模的巨大胜利是什么？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Well, and it's funny, and this was four years ago, but I think it was in the order of magnitude of over 10,000 DAUs for us, and actually, maybe a small bit of context.

Jackson Shuttleworth：嗯，这很有趣，这是四年前的事，但我认为我们的 DAU 数量级超过 10,000，实际上，也许有一点背景。

So, Duolingo really cares about the metric CURR current user retention rate, and actually our first ever Duolingo post with Lenny was the newsletter that our former head of product wrote, Jorge.

因此，Duolingo 确实关心 CURR 当前用户保留率这一指标，实际上，我们与 Lenny 合作的第一篇 Duolingo 帖子是我们前产品主管 Jorge 撰写的时事通讯。

Lenny Rachitsky: Still the single most popular newsletter post of all time in my newsletter, across 300 plus-

Lenny Rachitsky：仍然是我的时事通讯中最受欢迎的时事通讯帖子，覆盖 300 多个-

Jackson Shuttleworth: I would highly recommend that if you were interested in this, give it a read.

Jackson Shuttleworth：如果您对此感兴趣，我强烈建议您阅读一下。

To summarize, basically, what we found is that, if we wanted to drive DAUs, and Duolingo cares, our growth North Star is DAUs, the metric that is most effective, where a percentage change in that metric is most effective at driving DAUs is current user retention rate.

总而言之，我们发现，如果我们想提高 DAU，并且 Duolingo 关心的话，我们的增长北极星就是 DAU，这是最有效的指标，其中该指标的百分比变化对推动 DAU 最为有效，即当前的用户保留率。

And this is just users who are not new or resurrected, getting them to come back tomorrow.

而这只是非新用户或复活用户，让他们明天回来。

And so, most of the work that our teams do, our retention-based teams do is focused on CURR.

因此，我们的团队所做的大部分工作，我们的基于保留的团队所做的大部分工作都集中在 CURR 上。

And so, the retention team that I lead focused on CURR, it just so happens the streak is the best feature at driving CURR.

因此，我领导的保留团队专注于 CURR，碰巧连续性是推动 CURR 的最佳功能。

And so, this experiment was the biggest CURR win that we had had, and it was like a top three CURR win, anyway for us.

因此，这个实验是我们获得的最大的 CURR 胜利，无论如何对我们来说，这就像前三名的 CURR 胜利。

Just this little copy.

只是这个小副本。

And that's why I say, test copy 1000 different ways, sometimes it's not the big beautiful feature that's going to drive the huge gains, sometimes it's just something simple as a few words.

这就是为什么我说，以 1000 种不同的方式测试副本，有时并不是巨大的美丽功能会带来巨大的收益，有时只是简单的几句话。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Okay, so you said 10,000 DAUs, I think that references you guys measure incremental impact and absolute numbers of new daily users you're going to drive attributed to that experiment, is what it sounds like.

好的，所以你说的是 10,000 个 DAU，我认为你们衡量增量影响的参考文献以及您将归因于该实验的每日新用户的绝对数量，就是听起来的样子。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, and we do both.

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，我们两者都做。

We'll also look at, a lot of times I'll look at, for retention, day one versus day seven versus day 14, a lot of what I'm looking for is for us to have a better day 14 impact than better day one impact because it means that users are retaining better over time.

我们还会考虑，很多时候，对于留存率，第一天、第七天和第 14 天，我希望我们在第 14 天的影响比第一天的影响更好，因为这意味着随着时间的推移，用户的留存率会更好。

This is particularly for users that would see a feature multiple times.

这尤其适用于会多次看到某个功能的用户。

I just like absolute DAU numbers because as long as you're controlling for different biases, like a recency bias or a novelty bias, it's a really easy way to just have an absolute comparison.

我只是喜欢绝对 DAU 数字，因为只要你控制不同的偏差，例如新近度偏差或新颖性偏差，这是进行绝对比较的非常简单的方法。

You start to look at percentage changes and then it's influenced by who your treatment, how many users saw the experiment, but at least an absolute number is easier, in my mind, to start comparing..

你开始观察百分比变化，然后它受到你的治疗对象、观看实验的用户数量的影响，但在我看来，至少绝对数字更容易开始比较。

Again, there are pitfalls with it, but we find that that's a pretty useful way.

同样，它也有陷阱，但我们发现这是一个非常有用的方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: That lesson comes up a lot on this podcast, and that approach to experiment.

Lenny Rachitsky：这个教训以及实验方法在这个播客中经常出现。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, yeah, you're in good company.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，是的，你们是很好的伙伴。

Quick tangent, if there's not an answer to this, no problem, coming back to the idea of just experimenting like crazy and not creating a product that nobody wants to use anymore, is there an example of an experiment that was positive that you all decided, no, we don't actually think this is what we want in the product, they ended up not shipping?

快切线，如果没有答案，没问题，回到疯狂实验的想法，而不是创造一个没有人愿意再使用的产品，有没有一个实验的例子是你们都决定的，不，我们实际上并不认为这就是我们想要的产品，他们最终没有发货？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Retention doesn't only work on the streak, although you would think...

Jackson Shuttleworth：保留不仅仅对连胜有效，尽管你可能会认为......

Most of our work is the streak.

我们的大部分工作都是连胜。

We've touched a lot of different surfaces over the years and there was one experiment that we launched that, we talked about XP earlier, in the lesson, the only UI elements are a progress bar at the top, and then how many hearts you have.

这些年来我们接触了很多不同的表面，我们发起了一个实验，我们之前在课程中讨论过 XP，唯一的 UI 元素是顶部的进度条，然后是你有多少颗心。

So, we keep it really simple, and this very much speaks to the design philosophy of Duolingo, which is simpler UI is better, and we decided, hey, let's add XP in there.

所以，我们保持它非常简单，这非常符合 Duolingo 的设计理念，即 UI 越简单越好，我们决定，嘿，让我们在其中添加 XP。

And so let's show your XP ticking up as you're going through a lesson, that's going to make the user feel good, it's going to show you what you've earned, you're going to be less likely to quit, all of these good reasons to do it.

因此，让我们展示您在学习课程时 XP 的情况，这会让用户感觉良好，向您展示您获得的成果，您将不太可能退出，所有这些都是这样做的好理由。

And then you finish the lesson and then we'll show you've collected all this XP.

当您完成本课程后，我们将显示您已收集了所有这些 XP。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And it won, the hypothesis was a good one.

Jackson Shuttleworth：它赢了，这个假设是一个很好的假设。

But we realized, and I remember having this conversation with Luis, is like, cool, this is our most important screen in the app, it is our lesson, it is where users learn, and the focus here is on learning.

但我们意识到，我记得与路易斯的对话，就像，酷，这是应用程序中最重要的屏幕，这是我们的课程，这是用户学习的地方，这里的重点是学习。

And now you've added this other thing up there that could be distracting for users.

现在您添加了其他可能会分散用户注意力的东西。

And I think the question, we talked about roadmaps and strategy here, the question that he had for me, and I didn't have a good answer for at the time, was like, so what else are you going to do with this?

我认为，我们在这里讨论了路线图和策略，他向我提出的问题，当时我没有一个好的答案，就像，那么你还打算用这个做什么？

What's your iteration ideas?

您的迭代想法是什么？

Where's this going to go?

这要去哪里？

Is this going to make the lesson experience more gamified?

这会让课程体验更加游戏化吗？

And what we realized is that, honestly, it was just an easy engagement win idea, but we had touched our most sacred space in the app to do that.

我们意识到，老实说，这只是一个简单的赢得参与的想法，但我们已经触及了应用程序中最神圣的空间来做到这一点。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And so, that was a case where it's like, yeah, it was a nice win, but we'd added that UI element, and at least at the time it was less clear what we would do with it and we realized that long term it was just going to get in the way, and we'd rather, for simplicity's sake, pause that, shut it down, and keep the lesson to be a little bit of learning sanctuary it was.

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，在这种情况下，是的，这是一个很好的胜利，但我们添加了 UI 元素，至少在当时还不太清楚我们将用它做什么，我们意识到从长远来看它只会妨碍我们，为了简单起见，我们宁愿暂停它，关闭它，并让课程成为一个学习庇护所。

Now, it's funny, nowadays I think we actually have enough XP based mechanics and fun things that we can do, that I think actually a lot of the beliefs about the in-lesson experience have changed, such as something like that could work, but at the time didn't feel good to keep that around.

现在，很有趣的是，现在我认为我们实际上有足够的基于 XP 的机制和我们可以做的有趣的事情，我认为实际上很多关于课堂体验的信念已经改变，比如类似的东西可以工作，但当时保留它感觉不好。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is an awesome example.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的例子。

Hopefully we have time to talk about how the team operates, where my mind goes is like, oh, but you have all these PMs and teams that want to show impact, and the performance reviews, and all that stuff, and you're not shipping something, they're like, oh look, we did a win.

希望我们有时间讨论团队如何运作，我的想法是，哦，但是你有所有这些想要展示影响力的 PM 和团队，还有绩效评估，以及所有这些东西，而你没有交付任何东西，他们就像，哦，看，我们赢了。

So, I want to chat about that later, but let's keep going on things you've learned and things that didn't work along the journey.

所以，我想稍后再讨论这个问题，但让我们继续讨论你学到的东西以及在此过程中不起作用的东西。

Jackson Shuttleworth: The other thing that I'll call out with the streak, it's like we have the...

Jackson Shuttleworth：我要说的另一件事是，我们有......

The image of the streak is this flame.

条纹的图像就是这个火焰。

And we have the streak flame, and it's very much core to our iconography.

我们有条纹火焰，它是我们图像的核心。

It's important to acknowledge that that's a metaphor for a retention mechanic.

重要的是要承认这是保留机制的隐喻。

The idea of keeping a flame lit.

保持火焰点燃的想法。

And again, I think we've established the flame is for a lot of users as sort of their understanding of a streak, which is great, but there's a lot of people in different cultural context and different stages of life, where the idea of keeping a flame lit to show your commitment to something makes less sense.

再说一次，我认为我们已经为很多用户建立了火焰，作为他们对连胜的理解，这很好，但有很多人处于不同的文化背景和不同的人生阶段，在这些人中，保持火焰点燃以表明你对某件事的承诺的想法就没那么有意义了。

We did some UXR in India many years ago, and this was something that just did not resonate at all there, which was a really interesting learning.

很多年前，我们在印度做了一些用户体验审查，但这些东西在那里根本没有引起共鸣，这是一次非常有趣的学习。

And that's something it's like, again, depending upon what your user base is, the more global UXR you can do to understand how users are actually understanding and experience your feature, the better, because you just, again, encounter insights like this.

再次，这取决于你的用户群是什么，你可以做的越全面的 UXR 来了解用户如何实际理解和体验你的功能就越好，因为你只是再次遇到这样的见解。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And so, even our screen design, we used to have a flame, it was mostly this flame that would light up every day.

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，即使是我们的屏幕设计，我们过去也有火焰，主要是这种火焰每天都会点亮。

But again, it was like an indication of a metaphor for a mechanic, and when we redesigned it, we did this, Kurt, one of our animators, did this awesome odometer animation where it's like your number would tick every day...

但同样，这就像一个机械师的隐喻，当我们重新设计它时，我们这样做了，库尔特，我们的动画师之一，做了这个很棒的里程表动画，就像你的数字每天都会滴答作响......

It looked good, but from a product perspective, what was cool is we actually focused the design on the screen to show your number going up, and then it would say seven day streak, eight day streak.

它看起来不错，但从产品的角度来看，最酷的是我们实际上将设计集中在屏幕上以显示您的数字上升，然后它会说 7 天连续，8 天连续。

And I think that as you're thinking about designing around a streak, don't get too caught up into what is this the beautiful story that you're trying to tell, at the expense of it being a really comprehensible feature.

我认为，当你考虑围绕连续性进行设计时，不要太关注你想要讲述的美丽故事是什么，而牺牲了它是一个真正易于理解的功能。

And so, as you're thinking about product design, making that product design a clear distillation of this is what we're actually tracking, form should follow a function here, was a learning for us.

因此，当您考虑产品设计时，使产品设计成为我们实际跟踪的清晰升华，形式应该遵循功能，这对我们来说是一种学习。

And you'll see that now in a lot of places where we're showing streak, we're really leading with the number, not necessarily the flame.

你会发现，现在在很多我们表现出色的地方，我们真正领先的是数量，而不一定是火焰。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a theme that I'm hearing again and again is clarity, don't obsess with making it too clever, and don't ever think it, just clarity has a big impact.

Lenny Rachitsky：我一次又一次听到的主题是清晰度，不要沉迷于让它变得太聪明，也不要这么认为，清晰度会产生很大的影响。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Clarity also doesn't have to come at the expense of delight.

Jackson Shuttleworth：清晰度也不必以牺牲愉悦感为代价。

And this is something where you hit a milestone and Duo gets, it becomes, we call him a Phoenix Duo, and he becomes awesome, and lights on fire, and I think there are things that you can do to still make the experience really exciting and delightful and celebratory, and I would not lose that, but just don't do it at the expense...

当你达到一个里程碑时，Duo 就会变得，我们称他为 Phoenix Duo，他变得很棒，并且点燃火焰，我认为你可以做一些事情来让体验真正令人兴奋、令人愉快和庆祝，我不会失去这一点，但只是不要以牺牲为代价……

And I think it's also about figuring out, you can get away with doing more of this for users who are deeper into their streak experience than users who are starting, where it's like your goal for the one-day streak user is just to make sure, do they understand how this feature works?

我认为这还在于弄清楚，你可以为那些比刚开始的用户更深入地体验连胜的用户做更多的事情，就像你对一日连胜用户的目标只是为了确保他们理解这个功能是如何工作的？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Even something...

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：甚至有些东西......

Again, just another random experiment.

再说一次，这只是另一个随机实验。

At the bottom of the streak screen we have a calendar, and over the years it just looks more and more calendar-like, and that is simply because we find that the more we make it look like a calendar, days on top, little circles, the check...

在条纹屏幕的底部我们有一个日历，多年来它看起来越来越像日历，这只是因为我们发现我们让它看起来越来越像日历，顶部的日子，小圆圈，支票......

The more we make it look like calendar, the more that people realize, hey, this is a daily mechanic.

我们越让它看起来像日历，人们就越意识到，嘿，这是一个日常机制。

And so, think about the screen holistically, but every single thing that you're doing on the screen, how can you use it to communicate what is the point of this feature?

因此，从整体上考虑屏幕，但是您在屏幕上所做的每件事，如何使用它来传达此功能的意义是什么？

How does it work?

它是如何运作的？

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Coda 为您带来。

I use Coda every day to coordinate my podcasting and newsletter workflows.

我每天都使用 Coda 来协调我的播客和时事通讯工作流程。

From collecting questions for guests to storing all my research to managing my newsletter content calendar, Coda is my go-to app and has been for years.

从收集客人的问题到存储我所有的研究成果，再到管理我的时事通讯内容日历，Coda 是我的首选应用程序，多年来一直如此。

Coda combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps to help me get more done, and Coda can help your team to stay aligned and ship faster by managing your planning cycle in just one location, set and measure OKRs with full visibility across teams and stakeholders, map dependencies, create progress visualizations, and identify risk areas.

Coda 结合了最好的文档、电子表格和应用程序，帮助我完成更多工作，Coda 可以通过在一个位置管理您的计划周期、在团队和利益相关者之间全面可见的情况下设置和衡量 OKR、映射依赖关系、创建进度可视化并识别风险领域，帮助您的团队保持一致并更快地交付。

Lenny Rachitsky: You can also access hundreds of pressure-tested templates for everything from roadmap strategy to final decision-making frameworks.

Lenny Rachitsky：您还可以访问数百个经过压力测试的模板，涵盖从路线图策略到最终决策框架的所有内容。

See for yourself why companies like DoorDash, Figma, and Qualtrics run on Coda.

亲自了解为什么 DoorDash、Figma 和 Qualtrics 等公司在 Coda 上运行。

Take advantage of this special limited-time offer just for startups, head over to coda.io/Lenny and sign up to get six free months of the team plan.

利用这一专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠，前往 coda.io/Lenny 并注册即可获得六个月免费的团队计划。

That's coda.io/Lenny to sign up and get six months of the team plan.

coda.io/Lenny 注册并获得六个月的团队计划。

Coda.io/Lenny.

Coda.io/莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine one of the biggest wins was just giving people flexibility along the journey, like streak freezes and all these things, is that a big vein of opportunity discovery?

Lenny Rachitsky：我想最大的胜利之一就是为人们在整个旅程中提供灵活性，比如连续冻结和所有这些事情，这是发现机会的一大脉络吗？

Jackson Shuttleworth: It is.

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：是的。

Actually, I'm going to show you one of the most thoughtful gifts that anybody has ever given to me, this is our Duolingo Serenity, or Streak Serenity Prayer, my co-lead, Antonia-

事实上，我要向你展示任何人送给我的最贴心的礼物之一，这就是我们的 Duolingo Serenity，或者 Streak Serenity Prayer，我的联合负责人 Antonia-

Jackson Shuttleworth: ...

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：...

this for me.

这对我来说。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And so it says, "Luis, grant me the serenity to accept the flexibility I need, the courage to reach perfection when I can, and the wisdom to celebrate regardless."

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：所以它说，“路易斯，请赐予我平静接受我需要的灵活性，赐予我尽可能达到完美的勇气，赐予我无论如何都要庆祝的智慧。”

Jackson Shuttleworth: And that actually is kind of our strategy with the streaks.

Jackson Shuttleworth：这实际上是我们的连胜策略。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love the show and tell by the way, that was great.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个节目，顺便说一句，那太棒了。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah.

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：是的。

Well, I guess for podcast listeners, we'll have to get an image somewhere.

好吧，我想对于播客听众来说，我们必须在某个地方获取图像。

This idea of flexibility versus perfection, and then regardless, celebration, is core to how we think about the streak.

这种灵活性与完美，然后无论如何，庆祝的想法是我们如何看待连胜的核心。

Because I think for the streak for us, it's very much a bend not break.

因为我认为对于我们来说，这只是一个弯道而不是断裂。

If you're going to miss a day, I'd rather you come back, having missed that day, to an intact streak, but if you don't have to miss a day, I'd much rather you don't, I'd much rather you come back and use the app every day.

如果你要错过某一天，我宁愿你在错过那一天后回来，保持完整的连续状态，但如果你不必错过一天，我宁愿你不要错过，我宁愿你回来并每天使用该应用程序。

So, that thing on flexibility though, that's almost certainly been the biggest, from a mechanic perspective, the biggest DAU driver.

因此，从机制的角度来看，灵活性几乎肯定是最大的，也是最大的 DAU 驱动因素。

One of the earliest experiments we ran was going from you used to only be able to have one streak freeze and then we let you have either two or three.

我们最早进行的实验之一是从你过去只能冻结一次连续冻结，然后我们让你有两次或三次冻结。

So, we tested two different arms.

因此，我们测试了两种不同的手臂。

It was, again, another huge DAU win.

这又是 DAU 的又一次巨大胜利。

Jackson Shuttleworth: This actually is funny, it was something that...

Jackson Shuttleworth：这实际上很有趣，这是......

And this is, again, a callback to that growth model post from Jorge.

这又是对豪尔赫增长模型帖子的回调。

It actually was really bad for CURR because we were basically saying, hey, you can take a day off, and that's okay, but it was really good for, this is going to be like Alphabet Soup, , a weekly active user return rate.

这实际上对 CURR 来说非常糟糕，因为我们基本上是在说，嘿，你可以休息一天，没关系，但这真的很好，这就像 Alphabet Soup 一样，每周的活跃用户回报率。

So, basically, users who had taken a day off, we were getting them to come back more at higher rates, and so it made up for our losses in CURR.

因此，基本上，我们让休息一天的用户以更高的频率回来，从而弥补了我们在 CURR 上的损失。

But effectively, what this meant is that, why two streak freezes work better than one was, I don't know, sometimes people just need a little bit more flexibility than one day.

但实际上，这意味着，为什么两次连续冻结比一次更好，我不知道，有时人们只是需要比一天多一点的灵活性。

But again, the really interesting insight of this experiment was that three streak freezes was actually no better than two streak freezes.

但同样，这个实验真正有趣的见解是，三次连续冻结实际上并不比两次连续冻结更好。

And there were two competing things here, and I think this is important if you're going to build a streak to figure out what your flexibility mechanic is.

这里有两个相互竞争的事情，我认为如果你想建立一个连续的状态来弄清楚你的灵活性机制是什么，这一点很重要。

Jackson Shuttleworth: We were getting more users to return after longer times away to an intact streak.

Jackson Shuttleworth：我们让更多的用户在长时间离开后回归，保持着完整的状态。

But if you start taking three days off from any habit, it's just going to be less likely that you return even four days later.

但如果你开始戒掉任何习惯三天，那么即使四天后你再回来的可能性也会更小。

And so, we had these competing things where more users might be returning to a streak, but a lot of users were also just not coming back, we were training them to take more time off.

因此，我们遇到了这些竞争性的事情，更多的用户可能会回归连续状态，但很多用户也不会回来，我们正在培训他们休息更多的时间。

So, that flexibility, what's the right amount of...

那么，灵活性，多少是合适的......

We've again, this is another area we've run hundreds of experiments on, what is the right amount of flexibility?

我们再次，这是我们进行了数百次实验的另一个领域，适当的灵活性是多少？

And we are constantly surprised here.

我们在这里不断感到惊讶。

I still don't have the answer for at every point in your streak journey how much flexibility you need.

我仍然不知道在你的连胜旅程中的每一点你需要多大的灵活性。

One thing that I can say with certainty though is, give more flexibility when a user is starting their streak.

不过，我可以肯定地说的一件事是，当用户开始连续使用时给予更多灵活性。

Again, one of our biggest streak freeze experiment wins...

再次，我们最大的连续冻结实验之一获胜......

I feel like I'm constantly saying this, one of our biggest wins, but they all were really, really big.

我觉得我一直在说这是我们最大的胜利之一，但它们都非常非常大。

Jackson Shuttleworth: One of our biggest streak freeze wins was when you start a new streak, we give you two streak freezes.

Jackson Shuttleworth：我们最大的连续冻结胜利之一是当你开始新的连续冻结时，我们会给你两次连续冻结。

And again, it's so funny to think back, it's like how are we not doing this to begin with?

再说一次，回想起来真是太有趣了，就像我们一开始就没有这样做一样？

But at the time, the streak freeze was an overly gamified mechanic, you had to buy them with gems, that's our in-app currency, because we wanted the whole idea of this to feel like it was really something you earned, that there was a little bit of pain to getting that streak freeze.

但当时，连胜冻结是一种过于游戏化的机制，你必须用宝石购买它们，宝石是我们的应用内货币，因为我们希望这整个想法让人感觉这确实是你赢得的东西，让连胜冻结有一点痛苦。

And so, we tested though, what if we just give users when they start off their streak two streak freezes, and holy smokes to that win.

因此，我们进行了测试，如果我们在用户开始连续两次冻结时给予他们两次连续冻结，然后祝他们获胜，会怎么样？

Jackson Shuttleworth: And it's sort of obvious now, in retrospect, but if you have a one or a two or a three-day streak, it's really easy just to let it die and restart, again, you need to get to seven days, what we've seen in the data, for it to really lock in.

Jackson Shuttleworth：现在回想起来，这一点很明显，但如果你有一个、两天或三天的连续记录，那么很容易让它消失并重新启动，同样，你需要达到 7 天，我们在数据中看到，它才能真正锁定。

And so, giving users more flexibility so that it's harder to lose their streak initially, and then conversely, and this is what we keep learning, eventually, once people get on long streaks, you don't want to give them as much flexibility.

因此，为用户提供更大的灵活性，这样一开始就很难失去他们的连续记录，然后相反，这就是我们不断学习的内容，最终，一旦人们获得了长时间的连续记录，你就不想给他们那么多的灵活性。

Because there's a lot of times where, yeah, users don't...

因为很多时候，是的，用户不...

And I'm like this, I've got a 400-day streak.

而我就是这样，我已经连续400天了。

Note that that is a lot less time than I've been at Duolingo, I have lost and restarted streaks a lot of times at my time at Duolingo.

请注意，这比我在 Duolingo 的时间要少得多，我在 Duolingo 的时候已经多次失去并重新开始连胜。

Jackson Shuttleworth: But you start getting on long streaks, and you really care about this feature, you really care about your streak.

Jackson Shuttleworth：但是你开始连续得分，你真的很关心这个功能，你真的很关心你的连续得分。

And most people, as long as you're not backpacking through, I don't know, the back country of Utah, you'll be in a place where you can get service.

大多数人，只要你不背包穿越，我不知道，犹他州的偏远地区，你就会在一个可以获得服务的地方。

And so, figuring out who is the user that actually could use Duolingo, and not conditioning them to start taking days off that they didn't otherwise need to do is important to figure out where that line is for your feature.

因此，弄清楚谁是真正可以使用 Duolingo 的用户，而不是让他们开始休假他们本来不需要做的事情，对于弄清楚你的功能的这条线在哪里很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is fascinating.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣。

You can also buy a streak, right?

你也可以买连胜，对吧？

With money.

有钱。

That's a feature, right?

这是一个功能，对吧？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah.

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：是的。

And it's funny, this is also something that we -

有趣的是，这也是我们——

Lenny Rachitsky: You can buy a freeze, sorry, not a streak.

Lenny Rachitsky：抱歉，你可以购买冻结，而不是连续购买。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah.

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：是的。

So, you can buy a streak freeze, and the way it works is you can buy gems, and then you can use those gems to buy a streak...

所以，你可以购买连胜冻结，其运作方式是你可以购买宝石，然后你可以使用这些宝石来购买连胜......

And this is something we wrestle with.

这是我们正在努力解决的问题。

We're actively working on an experiment, right now that's having a small hit to revenue, but it's a really nice win for retention, and I think it's actually worth thinking about from day one, as you're building a streak, do you see this more as a monetization feature, or do you see this more as a retention feature?

我们正在积极进行一项实验，目前这对收入造成了很小的影响，但这对于保留来说是一个非常好的胜利，我认为这实际上值得从第一天开始考虑，当你建立连续性时，你是否更多地将其视为一种货币化功能，或者你是否将其更多地视为一种保留功能？

What's the role of monetization in this?

货币化在其中扮演什么角色？

What's the role of retention?

保留的作用是什么？

And I think for us it started out much more organically, and so we have a lot of monetization hooks, that again, is the retention PM, I would love to get rid of.

我认为对我们来说，它一开始就更加有机，所以我们有很多货币化的钩子，这又是保留项目经理，我很想摆脱它。

But again, it's sort of part of how the streak works right now.

但同样，这也是目前连胜的一部分。

And so, we always have this tension of, hey, if we start to make it harder to buy streak freezes, then fewer people buy them, buy gems to buy them, and so there's this more convoluted series of impacts that happen.

所以，我们总是有这样的紧张感，嘿，如果我们开始加大购买连续冻结的难度，那么购买它们的人就会减少，购买宝石来购买它们，所以就会发生一系列更复杂的影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, no, I love that people wanting to buy streak freeze is like the ultimate sign of how much streaks matter.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，不，我喜欢人们想要购买连胜冻结，这就像连胜的重要性的最终标志。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, streak freeze is the other big one that we've recently demonetized, or introduced a free option for, is getting back a lost streak.

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，连续冻结是我们最近取消货币化或引入免费选项的另一项重大举措，目的是找回失去的连续记录。

So, used to lose a streak, we had a feature, in the day, back in the day, called Streak Repair, we'd give you your streak back, you had to pay gems.

所以，在失去连胜的情况下，我们有一个功能，在过去，在过去，称为连胜修复，我们会给你你的连胜，你必须支付宝石。

But what we found that worked way better was a feature called Earn Back, and this is basically where you would have to do a certain number of lessons, as long as you came back within a window soon after losing your streak, do a few lessons and we just give you your streak back.

但我们发现效果更好的是一个名为“赚取返还”的功能，这基本上就是你必须做一定数量的课程的地方，只要你在失去连胜后不久在一个窗口内回来，做一些课程，我们就会把你的连胜给你回来。

And that was such a retention winner.

那真是一个保留赢家。

And again, what we thought about was it feels like you've earned it so much more when you've done...

再说一次，我们想到的是，当你完成这件事后，感觉你已经赢得了更多……

You deserve to have your streak back, we haven't cheapen the streak because you've done something.

你应该恢复你的连胜，我们并没有因为你做了什么而贬低你的连胜。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And in this sense, this idea of cheapening the streak is something, like from a philosophical...

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：从这个意义上说，这种贬低连胜纪录的想法是某种东西，就像来自哲学......

Philosophy of the streak.

连胜的哲学。

From a philosophical level, we wrestle with all the time, of, cool, we're giving out more streak freezes, at what point do we cross the line and users start to realize their streak means nothing?

从哲学层面来看，我们一直在努力思考，很酷，我们正在给出更多的连胜冻结，在什么时候我们会越过界限，用户开始意识到他们的连胜毫无意义？

Now, everything that we've seen, users are totally cool with using streak freezes and still thinking about their streak is this meaningful thing, but my co-lead, Antonia, who made that awesome cross-stitch for me, she is the keeper for us of the sanctity of the streak.

现在，我们所看到的一切，用户对使用连胜冻结感到完全冷静，并且仍然认为他们的连胜是一件有意义的事情，但我的共同领导者安东尼娅为我制作了那张很棒的十字绣，她是我们连胜神圣性的守护者。

And a lot of times as we...

而很多时候当我们...

And I think this is really important to have, as you're thinking about building your streak.

我认为这非常重要，因为你正在考虑建立自己的连胜纪录。

You can almost always get engagement wins, up to a certain point, by just cheapening the streak, making it easier to extend, letting users have more flexibility, but you kind of got to hold the line at some point.

在某种程度上，你几乎总能通过降低连胜次数、使其更容易扩展、让用户拥有更大的灵活性来赢得参与度，但在某些时候你必须坚持到底。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And it's not clear where that line is.

Jackson Shuttleworth：目前还不清楚那条线在哪里。

And once you...

一旦你...

You talk about one-way doors or two-way doors, there's a point where you go too far and it's a one-way door, and all of a sudden those users, those 9 million users on one-year streaks don't care about their streak anymore.

你谈论单向门或双向门，当你走得太远时，它就是一扇单向门，突然之间，这些用户，那些连续一年的 900 万用户不再关心他们的连续记录了。

And that is, I don't know, again, retention PM perspective, that'd be an extinction level event for us.

也就是说，我不知道，从保留 PM 的角度来看，这对我们来说会是一个灭绝级别的事件。

I don't want all of these users to stop caring about their streak.

我不希望所有这些用户停止关心他们的连胜记录。

And so, to have somebody who is invested in the sanctity of this streak, and for us it's Antonia and Luis, he's very good about this, is really important, just so you make sure you don't go too far.

因此，有一个人致力于这一连胜的神圣性，对我们来说就是安东尼娅和路易斯，他在这方面非常擅长，这真的很重要，这样你就可以确保你不会走得太远。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome insight.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的见解。

So, to protect...

所以，为了保护...

And push notifications I think are another example of this in general for companies, how much is too much?

我认为推送通知对于公司来说是另一个例子，多少算太多？

Because everyone is just like, let's just send another push, it's fine, just one more.

因为每个人都会说，我们再发一次推送就可以了，再发一次就好了。

And so, your solution to that is a person is like the keeper, and almost the gatekeeper, plus the founder, of how far is too far.

因此，你的解决方案是，一个人就像看门人，几乎是看门人，再加上创始人，距离有多远就太远了。

Jackson Shuttleworth: It's good if you can have that.

Jackson Shuttleworth：如果你能拥有的话那就太好了。

I think push notifications are also easier because there's a lot of things you can do around, all right, we'll send a budget cap for how many notifications we'll send, you can-

我认为推送通知也更容易，因为您可以做很多事情，好吧，我们将发送我们将发送的通知数量的预算上限，您可以-

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, policies.

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，政策。

But I think with a lot of things, at least for the streak, it's harder to create policies for in the same way, a lot of it has to be done based on feel, and so you just got to use your best judgment at times.

但我认为，在很多事情上，至少对于连胜来说，以同样的方式制定政策会更困难，很多事情必须根据感觉来完成，所以你有时必须运用你的最佳判断。

Lenny Rachitsky: Sweet.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太好了。

Okay.

好的。

Any other, maybe one or two more lessons from this journey of what streaks has become today.

任何其他的，也许是从这段关于今天的连胜的旅程中学到的一两个教训。

Jackson Shuttleworth: You mentioned notifications, and I've mentioned this a few times.

Jackson Shuttleworth：你提到了通知，我已经提到过几次了。

One...

一...

It's funny, you tend to think of, exactly as you say, you can just always send another notification, it's going to be some win, and at some point it'll be a bad experience, but it's tough to see that.

这很有趣，你倾向于认为，正如你所说，你总是可以发送另一个通知，这将是一些胜利，并且在某些时候这将是一次糟糕的体验，但很难看到这一点。

There's actually a notification that we...

实际上有一个通知，我们...

So, we send two notifications related to your core streak each day, the first is a practice reminder, we send it, this is actually an interesting insight, 23 and a half hours after you practice the day before.

所以，我们每天都会发送两个与你的核心连胜相关的通知，第一个是练习提醒，我们发送它，这实际上是一个有趣的见解，在你前一天练习后 23 个半小时。

Whoa, that is a lot.

哇，这么多。

Jackson Shuttleworth: So, basically, if you practice at noon today, we'll send it to you at 11:30 AM tomorrow, and we have done-

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，基本上，如果你今天中午练习，我们会在明天上午 11:30 发送给你，我们已经做到了-

Lenny Rachitsky: And it's, because it's like assuming they are free in that time the day before, maybe they'll be free at the same time?

Lenny Rachitsky：因为这就像假设他们在前一天的那个时间有空，也许他们会在同一时间有空？

Jackson Shuttleworth: And we actually moved, we used to let users set this practice reminder time, and our thinking was, cool, you're going to say 7:00 PM, that's when I really want to extend my streak each day, and then you know what?

Jackson Shuttleworth：我们实际上已经改变了，我们过去让用户设置练习提醒时间，我们的想法是，很酷，你会说晚上 7:00，那时我真的想延长每天的连续训练时间，然后你知道吗？

I say this to somebody with two kids, life gets in the way, life always gets in the way, and when you think you're going to practice will change, your life will change, whatever.

我对有两个孩子的人说，生活会阻碍，生活总是会阻碍，当你认为你要练习时，你的生活就会改变，无论如何。

And what we realize is the best indicator of when you should practice was when did you practice the day before.

我们意识到，判断您何时应该练习的最佳指标是您前一天什么时候练习。

We could almost certainly get more detailed, we have tried a bunch of ways to have much more complex logic, and what always wins is 23 and a half hours.

我们几乎肯定可以得到更详细的信息，我们尝试了很多方法来获得更复杂的逻辑，最终获胜的是 23 个半小时。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's so interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。

Revealed behavior versus stated.

显露的行为与陈述的行为。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, exactly.

杰克逊·沙特尔沃思：是的，完全正确。

So, again, we send this practice reminder 23 and a half hours later, the other thing that we'll do though is we'll send a, what we call a streak saver, and this is at 10:00 at night, if you have not extended your streak, we'll send you a message saying, hey, it's your last chance, this is it, if you don't extend your streak.

所以，我们再次在 23 个半小时后发送这个练习提醒，但我们要做的另一件事是，我们会发送一个，我们称之为连胜保护程序，这是在晚上 10:00，如果你还没有延长你的连胜，我们会向你发送一条消息，说，嘿，这是你最后的机会，就是它了，如果你不延长你的连胜。

And you would think that, that's kind of spammy, that's kind of annoying, to get a notification from an app at 10:00 PM, but what we found is because people care about their streak, their streak is this good thing that they attach positive emotions, that they don't really want to lose, that notification reminding them, hey, come back and...

你可能会认为，在晚上 10:00 从应用程序收到通知，这有点垃圾邮件，有点烦人，但我们发现，因为人们关心他们的连胜，他们的连胜是一件好事，他们附加了积极的情绪，他们真的不想失去，该通知提醒他们，嘿，回来......

People see this by and large as a positive notification and not a negative notification.

人们总体上认为这是一个积极的通知，而不是消极的通知。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Obviously, it serves our purpose as well of getting users to come back and not lose their streaks, but again, I think if you can think about your notification strategy related to what is the feature that it's tied to, how do users perceive that?

Jackson Shuttleworth：显然，它也符合我们的目的，让用户回来并且不会失去他们的连胜，但我想如果你能考虑一下与它所绑定的功能相关的通知策略，用户如何看待这一点？

You can almost certainly, not get away with more, but you can be thoughtful about notification load, and when to send notifications, and again, for us, this late night message, that's also highly impactful, super good, is actually something that could be perceived as spammy, but a lot of our users really do...

几乎可以肯定，您不能逃避更多，但您可以考虑通知负载，以及何时发送通知，而且，对于我们来说，这条深夜消息也非常有影响力，超级好，实际上可能被视为垃圾邮件，但我们的很多用户确实这样做......

Somebody who, it's often late at night, and I work here, and I'm like, oh, forgot to do my...

有人，经常是在深夜，而我在这里工作，我就像，哦，忘了做我的......

I was think about Duolingo all day, here it is, 11:15, and I still haven't done it, that message is really powerful.

我一整天都在想 Duolingo，就在这里，11:15，但我还没做，这个信息真的很强大。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

It has saved me many times, I totally know that message, and I love that it's a late night message from an app, very rarely do you actually, are happy about that, and I love that this actually is a good example where-

它救了我很多次，我完全知道这条消息，我喜欢它是来自应用程序的深夜消息，你实际上很少对此感到高兴，我喜欢这实际上是一个很好的例子，其中 -

Jackson Shuttleworth: It's really funny, all of the stories that you hear about people extending their streak, if you look around a Duolingo party, where it's like 11:30, 11:45, all the Duolingo employees, they're are doing their lesson at the last minute.

Jackson Shuttleworth：这真的很有趣，如果你环顾 Duolingo 派对，你听到的所有关于人们延长连胜纪录的故事，就像 11:30、11:45，所有 Duolingo 员工，他们都在最后一刻上课。

You always see these pictures of people in the club doing, or at a concert doing Duolingo, and yeah, because it's like otherwise you're going to use a streak freezer, or God forbid you will lose your streak.

你总是会看到人们在俱乐部里或在音乐会上玩 Duolingo 的照片，是的，因为否则你就会使用连胜冰箱，否则上帝保佑你会失去连胜。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's so funny.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。

Okay, anything else?

好吧，还有别的吗？

And if there's more than one more, definitely share, but any other really interesting lessons or wrong turns or insights?

如果还有不止一个，一定要分享，但还有其他真正有趣的教训或错误的转折或见解吗？

Jackson Shuttleworth: I talked about streak freezes, and we've done a lot with streak freeze, but I think if you're going to make flexibility a thing, it's probably also useful thinking about how do you celebrate perfection.

Jackson Shuttleworth：我谈到了连续冻结，我们在连续冻结方面做了很多工作，但我认为如果你想让灵活性成为一件事，那么思考如何庆祝完美可能也很有用。

And so, we have a feature that we have, it is the simplest thing in the world, it's called Perfect Streak.

所以，我们有一个功能，它是世界上最简单的东西，它被称为完美连胜。

And it's just, if you don't use the streak freeze for a few days, we make your streak look gold, and we make your little progress bar on the calendar just look a little bit nicer.

只是，如果您几天不使用连胜冻结，我们会让您的连胜看起来金光闪闪，并且我们会让您日历上的小进度条看起来更好一点。

There's no reward for doing it, you don't get anything other than this nice little indication, and it is awesome.

这样做没有任何奖励，除了这个漂亮的小指示之外你不会得到任何东西，这真是太棒了。

It is a simple feature, it is ultra not complex, and it is really powerful, not only for getting users to, as a bit of a reward, they'd be hey, get to seven days without using a streak freeze and your streak becomes perfect, but it's also a really nice indication of users who aren't using streak freezes.

这是一个简单的功能，非常不复杂，而且非常强大，不仅可以让用户作为一点奖励，嘿，在不使用连续冻结的情况下达到 7 天，您的连续冻结变得完美，而且这也是一个非常好的指示，表明用户没有使用连续冻结。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Here is the thing that if you don't use a streak freeze, which, again candidly, I would love for you never to use a streak freeze, if you don't use a streak freeze, your streak will stay perfect.

Jackson Shuttleworth：如果你不使用连胜冻结，我希望你永远不要使用连胜冻结，如果你不使用连胜冻结，你的连胜将保持完美。

It's funny, we actually just, we're constantly responding to bug reports about the streak.

有趣的是，我们实际上只是不断地响应有关连胜的错误报告。

It is...

这是...

I swear to God, we have the best infrastructure around this feature because it is so important.

我向上帝发誓，我们拥有围绕此功能的最好的基础设施，因为它是如此重要。

We had an employee who lost her, I think a four-month perfect streak, and it was a big deal for her because she did her lesson, and she was crossing international dateline, there was a bunch of stuff going on that was like, it was just kind of weird in our backend.

我们有一位员工失去了她，我认为这是四个月的完美连续，这对她来说是一件大事，因为她完成了她的课程，而且她正在跨越国际日期变更线，发生了很多事情，就像我们的后端有点奇怪。

But people start to care about perfection as much as they do their streak, and for that person it was a big deal when they lost their perfect streak.

但人们开始像关心自己的连胜一样关心完美，对于那个人来说，当他们失去完美的连胜时，这是一件大事。

And so, this is just an example of, look, if you're going to go after flexibility, which is good, finding a way to pull users back into perfection is a really important counterweight to have.

所以，这只是一个例子，看，如果你要追求灵活性（这很好），找到一种方法让用户恢复完美是一个非常重要的平衡因素。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm imagining is you guys need a Amazon style chatbot that just gives you the streak back, it's just like, okay, here you go.

Lenny Rachitsky：我的想象是，你们需要一个亚马逊风格的聊天机器人，它可以让你恢复连胜，就像，好吧，给你。

Jackson Shuttleworth: We have very much...

Jackson Shuttleworth：我们有很多......

So, we have, if people lose their streak, there's ways to get in contact with us, but we've actually thought about that, where it's like, okay, we should just build a self-service feature, and if we think that your excuse is good enough, whatever, we'll just .

所以，如果人们失去了连胜，有办法与我们联系，但我们实际上已经考虑过这一点，就像，好吧，我们应该建立一个自助服务功能，如果我们认为你的借口足够好，无论如何，我们就会……。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Because again, I'd much rather you be on a streak than have lost it, particularly .

Jackson Shuttleworth：因为，我宁愿你保持连胜，也不愿失去它，特别是……。

Lenny Rachitsky: Right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：对。

But it also can feel that easy.

但它也可以让人感觉那么容易。

I love this, I also love this point about just the power of the animation and user experience having impact, that's really interesting.

我喜欢这一点，我也喜欢关于动画的力量和用户体验产生影响的这一点，这真的很有趣。

Is that something you find often, just celebrating and making it feel really amazing without copy or any feature is just like, holy, you're awesome?

这是你经常发现的东西，只是庆祝并让它感觉非常神奇，没有复制或任何功能就像，天哪，你太棒了？

Jackson Shuttleworth: This is another thing where it's like when users care about the feature, using not only animation, haptics, sound effects, using...

Jackson Shuttleworth：这是另一件事，当用户关心该功能时，不仅使用动画、触觉、声音效果，还使用......

And it's funny, we don't have sound effects on the streak, this is probably something we'll look at in the not too distant in future, but haptics are something we have done a lot of testing on-

有趣的是，我们在条纹上没有声音效果，这可能是我们在不久的将来会看到的东西，但触觉是我们做了很多测试的东西 -

Lenny Rachitsky: Like the phone vibrating in various ways.

Lenny Rachitsky：就像手机以各种方式振动一样。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, exactly, your phone, there being a really cool haptic pattern as you extend your streak, all of this stuff wins.

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，没错，你的手机，当你延长连胜纪录时，会有一种非常酷的触觉模式，所有这些东西都会获胜。

And it's cool because I think it wins...

这很酷，因为我认为它赢了......

There's a few reasons.

有几个原因。

One is it just makes you feel good, you get some cool moment in your streak, and we celebrate you, and we celebrate you in this visual way, and your phone's buzzing, it just feels awesome.

一是它只是让你感觉良好，你在连胜中得到一些很酷的时刻，我们庆祝你，我们以这种视觉方式庆祝你，你的手机嗡嗡作响，感觉棒极了。

The other thing it does is it causes you to pause on that screen, and I think there's this desire, as you think through a lot of, as PMs think through, oh, how can I get users through this funnel as painlessly as possible?

它所做的另一件事是它会让你在那个屏幕上暂停，我认为有这种愿望，正如你思考很多，就像产品经理思考的那样，哦，我怎样才能让用户尽可能轻松地通过这个渠道？

I talked about .

我谈到了。

There's a lot of times where I don't, I want you to stop.

很多时候我不这样做，我希望你停下来。

I want you to stop and land on the screen.

我希望你停下来并落在屏幕上。

Jackson Shuttleworth: You got to be careful not to do this for too many screens, but the one big ones, sometimes I just want you to pause there and enjoy the moment.

Jackson Shuttleworth：你必须小心，不要在太多屏幕上这样做，但在大屏幕上，有时我只是想让你停下来享受这一刻。

If I can get you to enjoy the moment more, you're going to care more about your streak, and you're going to be coming back tomorrow.

如果我能让你更多地享受这一刻，你就会更加关心你的连胜，明天你就会回来。

And so, animations that are cool, and that cause you to really soak it in, haptics that feel good, all of that comes together to make you really focus on that moment, all of that just gets users more connected to their streak.

所以，很酷的动画，让你真正沉浸其中，感觉良好的触觉，所有这些结合在一起让你真正专注于那一刻，所有这些只会让用户与他们的连胜有更多的联系。

So, animation in the right times works well and it's something we've had win quite a lot.

因此，在正确的时间制作动画效果很好，这是我们赢得很多胜利的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: Who designs the haptic stuff?

Lenny Rachitsky：谁设计了触觉产品？

Is there a haptic designer?

有触觉设计师吗？

Jackson Shuttleworth: For the longest time it would be a product designer, or actually, it initially started as the engineer would be like, all right, would cobble together haptics, based on what they felt good, then it became a product design role, where they would use their best judgment.

Jackson Shuttleworth：在最长的时间里，它会是一个产品设计师，或者实际上，它最初是作为工程师开始的，好吧，会根据他们感觉良好的东西拼凑触觉，然后它变成一个产品设计角色，他们会使用他们最好的判断。

We actually just recently required an animation studio, Hobbs in Detroit, and now they are the sort of keepers of, they do a lot of motion design work, haptics very close to that, and so they do a lot of that.

事实上，我们最近刚刚需要一个动画工作室，底特律的霍布斯，现在他们是这样的守护者，他们做了很多动作设计工作，触觉非常接近，所以他们做了很多这样的工作。

I do remember trying to hire for a while a haptics contractor, like haptics design, and it was the saddest hiring I've ever done, because it was just, I don't know, it was such a specific...

我确实记得尝试雇用一段时间的触觉承包商，例如触觉设计，这是我做过的最悲伤的雇用，因为它只是，我不知道，这是一个如此具体的......

I don't know.

我不知道。

I just went through a lot of people who, it's just a really tricky space of kind of sound effects, kind of motion design, sort of technical...

我刚刚接触过很多人，他们认为这是一个非常棘手的空间，包括音效、动作设计、技术……

Jackson Shuttleworth: Very unique specific skill set.

Jackson Shuttleworth：非常独特的特定技能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：对。

And there's very few apps that really need this this deeply, so you're almost creating this person.

很少有应用程序真正需要如此深入，所以你几乎正在创建这个人。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is fascinating.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣。

That's like a whole podcast on its own.

这就像一个完整的播客。

By the way, I was going to say as you're talking about this, I love that it's a win to celebrate people that don't lose their streak, you introduce this way to make it flexible, and that's a big win, and then you go the opposite direction of, if you don't use this feature, you also feel even better.

顺便说一句，当你谈论这个时，我想说，我喜欢这是庆祝那些没有失去连胜记录的人的胜利，你引入这种方式使其变得灵活，这是一个巨大的胜利，然后你走向相反的方向，如果你不使用这个功能，你也会感觉更好。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Well, and it's funny, you talked about the danger of feature bloat, or we sort of talked about the danger of feature bloat, this is actually something I'm constantly thinking about with this.

Jackson Shuttleworth：嗯，很有趣，你谈到了功能膨胀的危险，或者我们谈论了功能膨胀的危险，这实际上是我一直在思考的事情。

We have the streak, but then we also have the perfect streak, and we count how many weeks you've had a perfect streak.

我们有连胜，但我们也有完美连胜，我们会计算您拥有完美连胜的周数。

Well, all of a sudden we have two streak numbers that are competing with each other.

好吧，突然间我们有两个相互竞争的连胜数。

It's funny, we actually don't introduce the concept of a perfect streak until after you've hit seven days, and some of this is just because the cognitive load of additional streak features.

有趣的是，实际上我们直到你达到 7 天后才引入完美连胜的概念，其中一些只是因为附加连胜功能的认知负担。

A lot of our cooler streak features, you got to get on a long enough streak.

我们的许多更酷的连续功能，你必须保持足够长的连续。

And not to say we haven't tested it because we have, because we test everything, introducing these features earlier, but what we've found is that pretty universally they lose when we introduce too many things, too many concepts to users too early in the experience, it's just hard for them to manage.

并不是说我们没有测试过它，因为我们已经测试过，因为我们测试了所有内容，更早地引入了这些功能，但我们发现，当我们在体验中过早向用户引入太多东西、太多概念时，他们普遍会失败，他们很难管理。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, sweet.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，亲爱的。

I know that we can go down this track for hours and hours, there's endless learnings about all the things you all have done along the journey.

我知道我们可以在这条路上走上几个小时，对你们在旅途中所做的所有事情都有无尽的学习。

I want to shift to talking about how your team operates.

我想谈谈你们的团队如何运作。

So, there's a lot of threads you touched on of just how a team can do this so well, shift 600 experiments, as you said, continue to find opportunity.

因此，您谈到了很多关于团队如何能够做得如此出色的主题，如您所说，转移 600 个实验，继续寻找机会。

What are some maybe lessons or advice you'd have for folks that are like, oh wow, I want to work more like this, from your team's experience, how does your team to operate that folks can learn from?

对于那些“哦哇，我想要更像这样的工作”的人，您有哪些经验教训或建议？从您团队的经验来看，您的团队如何运作，人们可以从中学习？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, maybe just a little bit of context.

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，也许只是一点背景信息。

Duolingo cares a lot about...

Duolingo 非常关心...

So, most of our teams are metric-based teams.

因此，我们大多数团队都是基于指标的团队。

So, we do the most work with streak, but the metric, what we really care about at the end of the day is CURR, and DAUs, because we see that DAUs hit CURR.

因此，我们在 streak 方面做了最多的工作，但最终我们真正关心的是 CURR 和 DAU，因为我们看到 DAU 达到了 CURR。

And so, when you can be really laser focused on, my goal each quarter is to make this metric go up, I think it's much easier to make sure that you're working on the highest ROI thing.

因此，当你能够真正专注于时，我每个季度的目标都是使这个指标上升，我认为确保你正在致力于最高投资回报率的事情会更容易。

I think when you think more about like, oh, I want to make this feature better, I think it's easier to get lost in what better means, and how you think about better.

我认为当你更多地思考“哦，我想让这个功能变得更好”时，我认为你更容易迷失在更好的含义以及你如何思考更好的问题上。

And so, I do think that having a really strong degree of focus as a team on what is the metric that I'm caring about, and how is that directing my efforts is-

因此，我确实认为，作为一个团队，对我所关心的指标以及它如何指导我的努力有非常强烈的关注——

Lenny Rachitsky: Versus feature-oriented.

Lenny Rachitsky：与以功能为导向。

So, basically your teams are structured around a metric/a goal/outcome versus we own this feature, or this product.

因此，基本上，您的团队是围绕指标/目标/结果构建的，而不是我们拥有此功能或此产品。

Jackson Shuttleworth: So, retention owns streak, I guess, but that's only because we've seen streak drive CURR better than any feature.

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，我想，保留率拥有连续性，但这只是因为我们已经看到连续性比任何功能都更好地驱动 CURR。

But we are not, we have this IAP hook with our streak freeze purchases, there are other teams that work on, that can and have worked on the streak, because it's not ours to say, no, no, no, we do all the iterations here, we just know that it drives our metric better.

但我们不是，我们有这个 IAP 钩子与我们的连续冻结购买，还有其他团队正在研究，可以并且已经在连续研究上工作，因为这不是我们的权利，我们在这里进行所有迭代，我们只是知道它可以更好地推动我们的指标。

In the same way that leaderboards, we have a team that focuses on how much time you spent, we want users to spend more time on Duolingo so they're learning more.

与排行榜一样，我们有一个团队专注于您花费了多少时间，我们希望用户在 Duolingo 上花费更多时间，以便他们学到更多知识。

Leaderboards is the best vector for doing it, so that team does a lot of leaderboards work, but every now and then I have an idea that I think will be highly retentive, and I will go in, and I'll pitch to them, and then we'll do some change to the leaderboard to make it more retentive.

排行榜是实现这一目标的最佳载体，因此该团队做了很多排行榜工作，但时不时地，我有一个我认为会具有高度保留性的想法，我会进去，向他们推销，然后我们将对排行榜进行一些更改，使其更具保留性。

Jackson Shuttleworth: But I do think having that clear metric of we're trying to drive CURR not we're trying to just make this feature better, helps at least make sure, give the team clear marching orders, and that focus I think is really good for prioritizing backlog.

Jackson Shuttleworth：但我确实认为，有一个明确的指标表明我们正在努力推动 CURR，而不是我们只是试图让这个功能变得更好，至少有助于确保，给团队明确的行进命令，而且我认为这种重点对于确定积压的优先级确实很有好处。

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

This is a really important point, this is the same way Airbnb worked, when I worked there for a long time, is it's, here's a goal that we want your team to be responsible for, you can work on any product you need to hit this goal, as you said, often various products are most connected to what you're doing, but what you're describing is, even though a team's kind of...

这是非常重要的一点，这和 Airbnb 的工作方式是一样的，当我在那里工作很长一段时间时，是吗，这是我们希望你的团队负责的一个目标，你可以开发实现这个目标所需的任何产品，正如你所说，通常各种产品与你正在做的事情最相关，但你所描述的是，即使一个团队的...

I imagine you own it from a perspective, and you're like are the shepherd of this part of the feature because it hits your goal, helps your goal most.

我想象你从某个角度拥有它，并且你就像是这部分功能的牧羊人，因为它达到了你的目标，对你的目标最有帮助。

But any other team can come in and be like, hey Jackson, we need to work on some streak stuff to help with learning, you're like, go for it.

但任何其他团队都可以进来，说，嘿杰克逊，我们需要做一些连续的事情来帮助学习，你会喜欢，加油。

Just a tangent there.

只是那里有一条切线。

Do they work really closely with your team if they want to do some work in the code?

如果他们想在代码中做一些工作，他们是否与您的团队密切合作？

How does that work logistically?

这在逻辑上是如何运作的？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah.

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：是的。

If you are, again, this is where I say there's soft ownership, we're not against teams doing things to the streak, but if we're going to do something given we probably have multiple quarters worth of a roadmap around the streak...

如果你是，再次，这就是我说的软所有权的地方，我们并不反对球队为连胜做一些事情，但如果我们打算做某事，因为我们可能有多个季度围绕连胜的路线图......

I say probably, we do.

我说可能，我们确实有。

Multiple quarters of roadmap for what we can do to the streak, if other teams want to come and mess with it, okay, we got to just figure out how is that going to work with what our plans for the streak were, how do we make sure a lot of times when teams are coming in thinking, hey, let's do this to the streak, they're in context that we might have, and so there's as much of a much simpler version of what we're doing now, a bit of a knowledge sharing, of saying, all right, well, this is what we think about the streak, this is what we've seen work, hasn't worked, how does that influence some of the hypothesis that you have.

多个季度的路线图，说明我们可以对连胜做些什么，如果其他团队想要来搞乱它，好吧，我们必须弄清楚这将如何与我们的连胜计划一起工作，我们如何确保很多时候当团队进来时思考，嘿，让我们对连胜做这件事，他们在我们可能拥有的背景下，所以我们现在正在做的事情有一个更简单的版本，有点知识共享，也就是说，好吧，这就是我们对连胜的看法，这就是我们所看到的有效、无效的方法，这对你的一些假设有何影响。

And so, I think getting that really...

所以，我认为真正做到这一点......

Making sure the juice is worth the squeeze.

确保果汁值得榨。

Lenny Rachitsky: Good old-fashioned product management work right there.

Lenny Rachitsky：很好的老式产品管理工作就在那里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

What else is interesting about how you all operate and how you all work to achieve this sort of success?

你们的运作方式以及你们如何努力取得这样的成功还有什么有趣的地方？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Again, my team lead runs, Antonia runs the most...

Jackson Shuttleworth：再说一遍，我的团队领先，安东尼娅跑得最多......

A really process, if you're going to run this experiments, you have to be really process-oriented and really thoughtful about which experiments am I going to run when, how is that going to set up the next one, there's heavy Jira automation, I think sometimes the Atlassian suite makes my eyes bleed, but there's a lot of times where that degree of process helps the team unblock engineers and make them move really fast.

一个真正的流程，如果你要运行这个实验，你必须真正以流程为导向，并且真正考虑到我要在什么时候运行哪些实验，如何设置下一个实验，有大量的 Jira 自动化，我想有时 Atlassian 套件让我眼睛流血，但很多时候，这种程度的流程可以帮助团队解除工程师的障碍，让他们行动得非常快。

And so, making sure that you have really good process around how are you going to run so many experiments, it's worth investing in.

因此，确保你有一个非常好的流程来进行如此多的实验，这是值得投资的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Can you follow that thread actually?

Lenny Rachitsky：你真的能跟上那条线索吗？

Just when you say that, what does that look like?

当你这么说的时候，那是什么样子的？

What are some elements of that process to make this work efficiently?

该流程中有哪些要素可以使这项工作高效进行？

Jackson Shuttleworth: All the way down to, really detailed roadmaps around, all right, we're running this experiment is based on the results of this experiment, or might hook into an element of this feature, how do we make sure that we're lining up implementation on this so that as soon as this thing runs and we're ready to go, we can start rolling out the next one.

Jackson Shuttleworth：一直到非常详细的路线图，好吧，我们正在运行这个实验是基于这个实验的结果，或者可能会挂钩到这个功能的一个元素，我们如何确保我们正在排队实现这个功能，以便一旦这个东西运行并且我们准备好开始，我们就可以开始推出下一个。

I hate features just sitting around and us not, again, continuing that thread.

我讨厌那些只是闲置的功能，而我们却不再继续这个话题。

So, it's not just thinking about what's our engineering bandwidth, but also what's the design bandwidth to make sure that we have the next iteration of this feature ready to go.

因此，不仅要考虑我们的工程带宽，还要考虑设计带宽，以确保我们已准备好该功能的下一次迭代。

We're planning months out, as we think about these feature iterations, even small ones, feature iterations, because when you lose cycles, not pushing on a feature, it's just sort of lost opportunity.

我们正在计划几个月的时间，当我们考虑这些功能迭代时，即使是小的功能迭代，因为当你失去周期而不推动某个功能时，这只是失去了机会。

And so, everything from being thoughtful about engineering roadmaps to design roadmaps to product roadmaps, all of that needs to come together in a system.

因此，从考虑工程路线图到设计路线图再到产品路线图，所有这些都需要整合到一个系统中。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, essentially, mapping dependencies across function, and you're saying in Jira you can do this.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，本质上，跨函数映射依赖关系，你说在 Jira 中你可以做到这一点。

Jackson Shuttleworth: You can do a lot of it in Jira, there is a non-zero amount of Google Docs that we have, that sometimes does things a little bit...

Jackson Shuttleworth：你可以在 Jira 中做很多事情，我们拥有非零数量的 Google 文档，有时可以做一些事情......

I don't know, sometimes it just looks a little bit nicer, it's a little more flexible.

我不知道，有时它只是看起来更好一点，更灵活一点。

Jackson Shuttleworth: But Jira is our, it is where the motherload of process is.

Jackson Shuttleworth：但是 Jira 是我们的，它是流程的母体所在。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Another thing that I'll just say is, we really resist the urge to do the big V1.

Jackson Shuttleworth：我要说的另一件事是，我们确实抵制了做大型 V1 的冲动。

And I think this is, I shared the streak goal example, where, a lot of times when we're exploring something we will say, okay, well, that's cool, how do we strip away a bunch of stuff and figure out what our core hypothesis is?

我认为这就是，我分享了连续目标的例子，很多时候，当我们探索一些东西时，我们会说，好吧，这很酷，我们如何去掉一堆东西并找出我们的核心假设是什么？

And then, just ship that thing first as a V1.

然后，首先将其作为 V1 发货。

Because it's easy, and I've found this time and time again, it's easy to add things, features that make them win, I've worked in retention engagement long enough, I can add, I know enough things to pull, and bells to add, and whistles to make something win, but there's a lot of times where it's like cool, t because all the whistles you added, not because of what your core hypothesis was, and a lot of times if you can just really simplify what the feature is, it's also much easier to ship, it's easier to design.

因为它很容易，而且我一次又一次地发现，很容易添加一些东西，让它们获胜的功能，我在保留参与方面工作了足够长的时间，我可以添加，我知道足够多的东西要拉动，并且要添加铃声，以及让某些东西获胜的口哨，但很多时候它很酷，因为你添加的所有口哨，而不是因为你的核心假设是什么，很多时候如果你能真正简化功能是的，它也更容易运输，更容易设计。

Jackson Shuttleworth: You're not designing for a whole system, you're designing for something much simpler.

Jackson Shuttleworth：你不是为整个系统进行设计，而是为更简单的东西而设计。

And so, getting everybody to think that way, allows us to end up shipping faster, shipping simpler, designing faster, getting faster approval, getting insight, and then doing what I talked about with streak goal, being able to run iteration after iteration after iteration, add these things iteratively.

因此，让每个人都这样思考，让我们最终能够更快地交付、更简单地交付、更快地设计、更快地获得批准、获得洞察力，然后实现我谈到的连续目标，能够一次又一次地运行迭代，迭代地添加这些东西。

And then not only by doing this are you able to move faster, but you get confidence at each step of the way, that, hey, my series of hypotheses is actually born out.

然后，通过这样做，你不仅能够更快地行动，而且你对每一步都充满信心，嘿，我的一系列假设实际上已经诞生了。

Or if it's not, cool, then we're going to drop that part of the feature, and then just ship what actually matters.

或者，如果不是，很酷，那么我们将放弃这部分功能，然后只发布真正重要的内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: If I can try to summarize the broad lesson so far that I'm hearing, and maybe you would've shared this, but I'm just thinking, if I were to try to design a company to operate, that we all operate, you essentially map all the levers that drive the business.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果我能尝试总结到目前为止我所听到的广泛教训，也许你会分享这一点，但我只是在想，如果我要尝试设计一家公司来运营，我们都在运营，那么你基本上会绘制出驱动业务的所有杠杆。

So, you have this mapping of all the metrics that drive up to growth and daily active users.

因此，您拥有了推动增长和每日活跃用户的所有指标的映射。

CURR ended up being the biggest specific metric to drive growth long term, so there's imagining a tree of all the opportunities you could work on, you found this is what is most connected to our growth.

CURR 最终成为推动长期增长的最大具体指标，因此想象一棵包含您可以从事的所有机会的树，您发现这是与我们的增长最相关的内容。

You basically just start mining, I don't know if mining is the right metaphor, but just looking for things that move that specific metric.

你基本上只是开始挖掘，我不知道挖掘是否是正确的比喻，但只是寻找移动特定指标的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: You just look and poke and explore, and then once you find one, you just go real deep on trying a lot of different...

Lenny Rachitsky：你只需观察、戳戳和探索，然后一旦找到一个，你就可以真正深入地尝试很多不同的......

You come up with a hypothesis, and a strategy of here's how we think we can do this, and how we can move this, and then you just try a bunch of stuff.

你提出一个假设，以及我们认为如何做到这一点的策略，以及我们如何移动它，然后你只需尝试一堆东西。

There's also this element of the Arrested Development quote, "There's always money in the banana stand," comes to mind, where it's just keep working on, see there's more, there's going to be more opportunity at this.

我还想到了《发展受阻》中的一句台词：“香蕉摊里总是有钱”，只要继续努力，就会看到更多，就会有更多机会。

Jackson Shuttleworth: When I joined Duolingo, the PM that I took over for, Anton, who used to lead the retention team, I remember saying, "Dude, the streak, it just counts up, you guys have been testing on it for years, how much more work can we do on the streak?" And he was like, Jackson, you child...

Jackson Shuttleworth：当我加入 Duolingo 时，我接手的 PM 安东（Anton）曾领导保留团队，我记得我说：“伙计，连胜，它很重要，你们已经测试了很多年了，我们在连胜方面还能做多少工作？”他说，杰克逊，你这个孩子……

He didn't say exactly this, but this is how I felt it.

他没有具体说出来，但我就是这么感觉的。

Like, Jackson, you child, we're not even 30% of the way optimized.

就像 Jackson，你个孩子，我们甚至还没有优化到 30%。

And four years later, I say that with such conviction, we are so far away from...

四年后，我说，怀着这样的信念，我们离......

We've made a ton of strides, but we are still so far away, and every quarter where we ship a ton of wins and improvements to the streak, it just continues to prove to me that there is so much more to be done.

我们已经取得了很大的进步，但我们还很遥远，每个季度我们都会取得大量的胜利并取得连胜，这继续向我证明还有很多事情要做。

Jackson Shuttleworth: So, I think your framing of it is...

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，我认为你的框架是......

And I would say there's a lot of thought that goes into, again, I talk about the strength of the hypothesis that you have to have as you start to build out larger feature strategy, I do think it's really important to not just do a bunch of random stuff but do it with intent, with a goal in mind, otherwise, you do end up in these local maximas.

我想说的是，这里有很多想法，再次，我谈到了当你开始构建更大的特征策略时你必须拥有的假设的强度，我确实认为不仅仅是做一堆随机的事情，而是带着意图和目标去做，这是非常重要的，否则，你最终会陷入这些局部最大值。

But yeah, there's still a bunch of stuff that we haven't tried that I think we have high confidence in working out and so we'll keep doing that.

但是，是的，还有很多我们还没有尝试过的事情，我认为我们对锻炼很有信心，所以我们会继续这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Are there any other, say, lasting lessons from this journey that if someone were to try to operate this way, build streaks into their product, anything you'd recommend?

Lenny Rachitsky：如果有人尝试以这种方式进行操作，在他们的产品中建立连胜，那么从这次旅程中是否还有任何其他持久的教训，您会推荐什么？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, I really do think it starts with...

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，我确实认为这始于......

Streaks are an engagement hack.

连胜是一种参与技巧。

You can make your app more retentive, I'm almost positive, almost every app out there can make it more retentive.

你可以让你的应用程序更具记忆力，我几乎肯定，几乎每个应用程序都可以使其更具记忆力。

It is loss aversion, that is, again, armchair psychologist Jackson, it's just a thing that works on humans.

这是损失厌恶，也就是说，再一次，纸上谈兵的心理学家杰克逊，这只是对人类起作用的东西。

But if your app is not something that users want to use every day, or whatever cadence you want your app to be, to work on, it's going to be, you're only going to get so much from that streak, and honestly, it's probably going to distract you from what really should matter, which is making your app something that people want to use every day.

但是，如果您的应用程序不是用户想要每天使用的东西，或者无论您希望您的应用程序以何种节奏运行，那么您只能从这种连续使用中获得很多东西，而且说实话，它可能会分散您对真正重要的事情的注意力，这使得您的应用程序成为人们每天想要使用的东西。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And so, if you start focusing on the streak but you haven't made that an enjoyable experience, you're just going to waste a lot of time, honestly.

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，如果你开始专注于连续得分，但你没有让它成为一种愉快的经历，老实说，你只会浪费很多时间。

And so, I think making sure that you have your core loop of your app figured out, that it is giving value to users, it is something that they want to come back to every day, that really sets the stage for something to layer a streak on.

因此，我认为确保你弄清楚了应用程序的核心循环，它为用户提供了价值，这是他们每天都想回来的东西，这确实为一些东西的连续发展奠定了基础。

So, resist the temptation, if you don't think you've reached that point, to go too hard down the path of streak.

因此，如果您认为自己还没有达到这一点，请抵制诱惑，不要在连胜之路上走得过猛。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really good point.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常好的观点。

Just like a streak is not going to solve your problems if people don't actually care about the core value you're providing.

就像如果人们并不真正关心你所提供的核心价值，那么连胜并不能解决你的问题。

Jackson Shuttleworth: No, and honestly, it'll probably cause more problems if what you end up focusing on is how do I make the streak highly engaging, but your app is...

Jackson Shuttleworth：不，老实说，如果您最终关注的是如何使连胜高度吸引人，那么它可能会导致更多问题，但您的应用程序是......

You're wasting time that could otherwise be better spent on solving more critical problems.

您正在浪费时间，而这些时间本来可以更好地用于解决更关键的问题。

So, that's one learning, the other thing that I'll say is, we met with one of our board members, Bing, Bing Gordon, a few weeks, or a few months ago rather, and he had this comment where he was just like, "The reason why users care about your streak so much is because you care about your streaks much." You being Duolingo.

所以，这是一个教训，我要说的另一件事是，几周或几个月前，我们会见了我们的一位董事会成员 Bing，Bing Gordon，他发表了这样的评论，他的意思是，“用户如此关心你的连胜的原因是因为你非常关心你的连胜。”你是多邻国。

The reason why users care about our streak so much is because Duolingo cares about the streaks so much.

用户之所以如此关心我们的连胜，是因为Duolingo如此关心连胜。

And we're like, what do you mean?

我们就像，你是什么意思？

Well, he's like, well, after every session you see a big streak screen, and it's animated cooler than almost any other screen in the app, and then sometimes you see some other screens, and there's all these other...

好吧，他就像，好吧，每次会话结束后，你都会看到一个大条纹屏幕，它的动画效果比应用程序中几乎任何其他屏幕都要酷，然后有时你会看到一些其他屏幕，还有所有这些其他......

You don't let a user forget it, you talk about them in messages.

您不会让用户忘记它，而是在消息中谈论他们。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And so, I think it's worth thinking about, look, if you're going to build a streak, and then you're going to it off into the corner of your app, where users aren't going to see it, they're probably not going to care about it as much, which might be fine, because there might be other levers that you think are more important to pull on, but there's a reason why we focus as much on the streak as we do, and that's because we want it to be top of mind for users.

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，我认为值得考虑的是，看，如果你要建立一个连胜，然后你会把它放在应用程序的角落里，用户不会看到它，他们可能不会那么关心它，这可能很好，因为可能还有其他你认为更重要的杠杆，但我们如此关注连胜是有原因的，那是因为我们希望它成为用户的首要考虑因素。

And that's not by accident then that users start to care about it.

用户开始关心它并不是偶然的。

And so, I think just as you're thinking about building the streak, making sure that you're giving it the visibility it deserves, if you want it to have the kind of impact that Duolingo has, it's sort of an important hierarchy principle to think about as you design things.

因此，我认为，当你考虑建立连胜，确保给予它应有的可见性时，如果你希望它具有 Duolingo 那样的影响力，那么在设计事物时，这是需要考虑的重要层次原则。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a good point.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的观点。

You look for cues to the app of tell me what I should pay attention to, what's important?

您在应用程序中寻找提示，告诉我应该注意什么，什么是重要的？

If you're just like fire, explosions, you made a streak, oh, maybe I should pay attention to this feature.

如果你只是像火，爆炸，你做了一个连胜，哦，也许我应该注意这个功能。

And then the push notifications obviously encourage you there too.

然后推送通知显然也会鼓励你。

Anything else along those lines?

还有其他类似的事情吗？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Maybe final thing is, look, we ran so many tests on our Duolingo streak to figure out what worked.

Jackson Shuttleworth：也许最后一件事是，看，我们对 Duolingo 连续进行了如此多的测试，以找出有效的方法。

We have a philosophy at Duolingo, of test it first.

Duolingo 的理念是先测试。

We are a lot of times willing to test things.

很多时候我们愿意测试事物。

I really think that if you're going to try to introduce a streak, or you want to improve on the streak you have, don't get too caught up in the philosophy of everything, make sure your hypotheses feel like they're good, but my recommendation is just try things.

我真的认为，如果你想尝试引入一种连胜，或者你想改进你已有的连胜，不要太沉迷于一切的哲学，确保你的假设感觉很好，但我的建议是尝试一下。

And this is, again, you said it earlier, it's like this is as much human psychology as anything, and as soon as that becomes the case, you kind of just got to understand what users respond to.

再说一遍，你之前说过，这就像人类心理学一样，一旦出现这种情况，你就必须了解用户的反应。

And the easiest way to do that is to stop spending time batting around ideas in a conference room and just try some stuff.

最简单的方法就是停止花时间在会议室讨论想法，而只是尝试一些东西。

So, huge recommendation to if you're going to invest in a streak, try and figure out what works through testing with users rather than trying to get it perfect on the first try.

因此，强烈建议您如果要连续投资，请尝试通过与用户一起测试来找出有效的方法，而不是试图在第一次尝试时就使其完美。

Lenny Rachitsky: Say someone's listening and they're like, should we do streak, is this worth doing?

Lenny Rachitsky：假设有人在听，他们会说，我们应该连胜吗？这值得吗？

What's your take on just the chances that a streak feature would be helpful to another consumer?

您如何看待连续功能对其他消费者有帮助的可能性？

Jackson Shuttleworth: I am well known for saying in the company that I think every team, every app could benefit from a streak.

Jackson Shuttleworth：我在公司里广为人知的是，我认为每个团队、每个应用程序都可以从连胜中受益。

Now, how you implement it is very different, and I think you got to, what is your user's use case?

现在，您的实现方式非常不同，我认为您必须了解，您的用户的用例是什么？

If they're going to come use, I don't know, tax software...

如果他们要使用，我不知道，税务软件......

Okay, you know what?

好吧，你知道吗？

Now that I say this, tax software would be a hard one, but maybe it's all about you need users to come back every day, during the tax season, or how many times...

既然我这么说了，税务软件将是一个很难的软件，但也许这一切都取决于你需要用户每天、在纳税季节或多少次回来......

I don't know.

我不知道。

Now, that I say this out loud-

现在，我大声说出这句话——

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, that is a hard use case.

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，这是一个困难的用例。

But the vast majority of companies I think have a good idea of like, all right, here is my ideal use case, I want users to come here three times a month, that would be ideal.

但我认为绝大多数公司都有一个好主意，好吧，这是我理想的用例，我希望用户每月来这里三次，那就太理想了。

Or four times a month.

或者一个月四次。

You can build a streak to work.

您可以建立连续工作的势头。

Peloton has weekly streaks because the idea of doing a Peloton workout every single day was hard for this user during COVID.

Peloton 每周都会进行连续锻炼，因为在新冠疫情期间，每天进行 Peloton 锻炼对于该用户来说是很困难的。

It was just like every now and then you get on the Peloton, that was great, but the idea of a weekly streak was something that I could keep up.

就像你时不时地加入主车群一样，这很棒，但每周连续的想法是我可以坚持的。

And so, I think figure out what your usage pattern is, as a user, and then build your streak around it.

因此，我认为作为用户，弄清楚你的使用模式是什么，然后围绕它建立你的连续记录。

But as long as you're not a really, again, the tax example is probably a good counterfactual, but as long as you have some degree of frequency in your use, I think almost anything can have a streak.

但只要你不是一个真正的例子，税收的例子可能是一个很好的反事实，但只要你有一定程度的使用频率，我认为几乎任何东西都可以有连续性。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, Duolingo, it's, again, a $14 billion company, this feature, possibly the most contributing factor, other than the core product, to that level of success in market cap, and it's hard to imagine another just feature of a product that has had this much impact on growth and revenue and building this sort of business.

Lenny Rachitsky：Duolingo 又是一家价值 140 亿美元的公司，除了核心产品之外，这个功能可能是对市值取得如此成功的最大贡献因素，很难想象一个产品的另一个功能能够对增长和收入以及建立此类业务产生如此大的影响。

So, I love that we spent this much time on it, the motherload, the motherload of advice and insights.

所以，我喜欢我们在这上面花了这么多时间，大量的建议和见解。

So, thank you again for putting-

所以，再次感谢您提出-

Lenny Rachitsky: With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny Rachitsky：这样，我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books you've recommended most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Jackson Shuttleworth: All right, I'll start with A Guide to Midwest Conversation.

Jackson Shuttleworth：好吧，我将从中西部对话指南开始。

So, I'm based in Kansas City, I'm a proud Midwesterner, and us Midwesterners talk in a certain way.

所以，我住在堪萨斯城，我是一个自豪的中西部人，我们中西部人以某种方式说话。

I think you hear about Minnesota nice, but we tend not to say what we mean, and it is a very funny primer into what Midwesterners actually mean when they say what they say.

我想你听说过明尼苏达州很好，但我们往往不会说出我们的意思，这是一个非常有趣的入门读本，让我们了解中西部人所说的话实际上意味着什么。

So, highly recommend reading that.

所以，强烈推荐阅读该内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: I like that you give that to people, just like, here's what I might be telling you, which you may not read.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你把这些告诉人们，就像我可能会告诉你的，但你可能不会读。

Jackson Shuttleworth: My wife is German, and I gave it to her so she could better understand.

Jackson Shuttleworth：我的妻子是德国人，我把它给了她，这样她就能更好地理解。

Lenny Rachitsky: I see German being the opposite of that, okay.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为德语恰恰相反，好吧。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Very different.

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：非常不同。

Another book, this is a good one, Fate is the Hunter.

另一本书，这是一本好书，命运是猎人。

This is a really cool book, it's a memoir of one of the early commercial airline pilots, and it is wild to hear the stories about what flying was back in the day.

这是一本非常酷的书，是一位早期商业航空公司飞行员的回忆录，听到有关当年飞行的故事真是令人兴奋。

I'm a former management consultant, I flew every week for almost six years, and I never once had to worry about, am I going to make it to the other end of this flight alive?

我是一名前管理顾问，近六年来我每周都坐飞机，我从来不用担心，我能否活着到达这趟航班的另一端？

That was not the case back then, and so some of the stories about what it used to be like to be a pilot on some of these planes, before modern aviation technology, is fascinating, and makes you really appreciate what we have.

当时的情况并非如此，因此，在现代航空技术出现之前，关于在其中一些飞机上担任飞行员的一些故事非常有趣，并且让您真正欣赏我们所拥有的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels good to read a book like that, being a software PM or engineer or whatever, how different that life is.

Lenny Rachitsky：作为一名软件产品经理或工程师或其他什么人，读这样的书感觉很好，那种生活是多么不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: Hardware.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：硬件。

Oh man, it's not haptic design.

天哪，这不是触觉设计。

Okay.

好的。

Next, unless there's any other books you're going to share?

接下来，除非您还有其他书籍要分享？

No, okay, great.

不，好吧，太好了。

What's a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Jackson Shuttleworth: So, I have two kids, I watch a lot of Bluey, it's really good, I swear, it brings me no shortage of joy.

Jackson Shuttleworth：所以，我有两个孩子，我看了很多《Bluey》，它真的很棒，我发誓，它给我带来了不缺的快乐。

But adult show or show not meant for four-year-olds that I have watched, I just finished the latest season of Emily in Paris, man, wonderful.

但我看过的成人节目或节目不适合四岁孩子，我刚刚看完最新一季的《艾米丽在巴黎》，伙计，太棒了。

I realize it's not the highest brow of television, but just beautiful people in beautiful cities, solving problems that are not earth-shattering, sometimes it is nice to just tune out.

我意识到这不是电视的最高境界，而只是美丽城市中的美丽人物，解决的问题并不惊天动地，有时不看也很好。

Also, I'm learning French on Duolingo, slight plug for the app, I can understand a lot of the French that is being spoken, and there is no better joy than having invested as much time as I have in French, and actually being able to use it.

另外，我正在 Duolingo 上学习法语，该应用程序的插件很小，我可以听懂很多正在说的法语，没有什么比在法语上投入如此多的时间并真正能够使用它更好的快乐了。

So, huge fan of Emily.

所以，艾米丽的超级粉丝。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is so funny, what a fun Venn diagram of interests.

Lenny Rachitsky：这太有趣了，这是一个多么有趣的维恩兴趣图。

My mother-in loves Emily in Paris, I saw someone tweeting about what Visa is she on?

我的婆婆很喜欢巴黎的艾米丽，我看到有人发推文说她持什么签证？

How is she still in Paris?

她怎么还在巴黎？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah.

杰克逊·沙特尔沃斯：是的。

You best just not ask questions, there's a lot of questions for this show that are better left unasked.

你最好不要问问题，这个节目有很多问题最好不要问。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really like?

您最近发现有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Other than Duolingo.

除了多邻国。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Last week I went to Home Depot, and I bought a new ladder, and ladder innovations, you don't think of often, but you can make one of the legs go a little bit further than the other leg.

Jackson Shuttleworth：上周我去了家得宝，买了一个新的梯子，梯子的创新，你不会经常想到，但你可以让一条腿比另一条腿走得远一点。

And as somebody like myself who has a house that is built on a slight slope, every time I go up on my ladder, I take my life in my hands, but with this ladder, I'm always even.

像我这样的人，房子建在一个小斜坡上，每次我爬上梯子，我都把自己的生命掌握在手中，但有了这个梯子，我总是平坦的。

I cleaned my gutters twice last week just because of how awesome this ladder has...

上周我清理了两次排水沟，只是因为这个梯子有多么棒......

How much this ladder has changed my life.

这座梯子改变了我的生活多少。

So, ladder innovation, I don't think it gets talked enough about and so I'm happy to give it the spotlight it deserves.

所以，我认为梯子创新没有得到足够的讨论，所以我很高兴给予它应有的关注。

Lenny Rachitsky: I appreciate you doing that, and it's the first ladder recommendation we've had on the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很感谢你这样做，这是我们在播客上收到的第一个天梯推荐。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you really find useful in work or in life they share with folks?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，并且您认为这些格言在工作或生活中确实有用，并且与人们分享？

Jackson Shuttleworth: This probably will not be much of a surprise based on how I've talked about our willingness to test things, but you miss 100% of the shots that you don't take.

Jackson Shuttleworth：根据我如何谈论我们测试事物的意愿，这可能不会太令人惊讶，但你会错过 100% 的你不拍摄的镜头。

I'm a big fan of just trying things, even if your possibility of success is not 100, because you learn a lot along the way.

我非常喜欢尝试新事物，即使你成功的可能性不是 100，因为你一路上会学到很多东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question, do you have any fun traditions at Duolingo, amongst either the PM team or the company in general that might be delightful to share?

Lenny Rachitsky：最后一个问题，在 Duolingo，无论是 PM 团队还是整个公司，您是否有任何有趣的传统值得分享？

Jackson Shuttleworth: We have way too many traditions to count.

Jackson Shuttleworth：我们有太多的传统。

I will share the weird tradition that we do at every retention standup, and this started during the pandemic, we obviously used to stand up in person, and then when we went remote, we did this thing where whoever's the last person to go would count down 3, 2, 1, and then we'd all try to clap at the same time, which was kind of fun and dorky, but we fell in love with it, and four years later we're still doing it.

我会分享我们在每次保留站会上所做的奇怪传统，这是在大流行期间开始的，我们显然过去常常亲自站起来，然后当我们去远程时，我们做了这样的事情，无论谁是最后一个去的人都会倒数3、2、1，然后我们都会尝试同时鼓掌，这有点有趣和愚蠢，但我们爱上了它，四年后我们仍然这样做。

Recently we've added, we all say yee-haw in unison afterwards, I can't tell you why.

最近我们添加了，之后我们都异口同声地说“是啊”，我不能告诉你为什么。

But trying to synchronize a clap via Zoom, and then all shouting yee-haw...

但尝试通过 Zoom 同步鼓掌，然后所有人都喊着“呀呀”……

I did this in a phone booth the other day and after I came out someone told me, "You know that those aren't as soundproof as you think," but when you get a good opportunity to give a yee-haw, you can't pass up on it, so.

前几天我在电话亭做了这件事，出来后有人告诉我，“你知道那些并不像你想象的那么隔音”，但是当你有一个很好的机会表示“是啊”时，你不能错过它，所以。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love these little things, they sound so minor, but they're such important elements of team culture and tradition, and so important for PMs to find ways to just have fun and do something ridiculous.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这些小事，它们听起来很微不足道，但它们是团队文化和传统的重要元素，对于产品经理来说，找到乐趣和做一些荒唐事的方法非常重要。

Jackson Shuttleworth: I will say, it took a while to get people behind shouting yee-haw, but now that we have people doing it, you can't take it away , we all love it.

Jackson Shuttleworth：我会说，花了一段时间才让人们在后面大喊“是啊”，但现在我们有人这样做了，你不能把它夺走，我们都喜欢它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, I called our all hands for a while, y'all hands, feel free to steal that.

Lenny Rachitsky：噢，伙计，我召集了我们全体人员一段时间，你们全体人员，请随意窃取。

Jackson Shuttleworth: You get it, you get it Lenny.

Jackson Shuttleworth：你明白了，你明白了，莱尼。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I get it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我明白了。

Jackson, this is incredible, I feel like people are going to listen to this with notebooks, and just like, okay, here's a bunch of ideas we should try with whatever we're working on, whether it's streaks or not.

杰克逊，这太不可思议了，我觉得人们会用笔记本来听这个，就像，好吧，这里有很多我们应该尝试的想法，不管我们正在做什么，无论它是否是条纹。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions, where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more, learn more about Duolingo?

最后两个问题，如果人们想联系、了解更多关于 Duolingo 的信息，可以在哪里找到您？

I know you're hiring product managers, so share more there, and finally, how can listeners be useful to you?

我知道你正在招聘产品经理，所以在那里分享更多，最后，听众如何对你有用？

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yes, you can find me on LinkedIn, that is where most of my online social media is, so Jackson Shuttleworth, and then how people can be useful to me, yes, as you said, we are hiring.

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，你可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我，那是我大部分在线社交媒体所在的地方，所以 Jackson Shuttleworth，然后人们如何对我有用，是的，正如你所说，我们正在招聘。

We're actually hiring for my team.

我们实际上正在为我的团队招聘。

Are you interested in thinking about streaks as much as we do?

您是否像我们一样有兴趣思考连胜？

We might be the right home for you, so please, you can apply on our website.

我们可能是您的理想之选，所以请您可以在我们的网站上申请。

We're also hiring from a number of other product management roles, and they're all as thrilling as this work is.

我们还招聘了许多其他产品管理职位，他们都和这项工作一样令人兴奋。

Jackson Shuttleworth: And then, I'm always interested about how other companies have implemented streaks and what they've learned, and so what I'd say is if you're a company who's implemented a streak maybe in a different way than Duolingo has, or you found a whole ton of success and another vector, another element of the feature that we didn't talk about today, I would love to know more.

Jackson Shuttleworth：然后，我总是对其他公司如何实现连续性以及他们学到了什么感兴趣，所以我想说的是，如果您是一家以与 Duolingo 不同的方式实现连续性的公司，或者您发现了巨大的成功和另一个向量，我们今天没有讨论的功能的另一个元素，我很想了解更多。

I used to catalog basically every streak I found out there, and as it's become more of a popular feature, it's just been hard to keep up on.

我曾经基本上对在那里发现的每一条记录进行分类，随着它变得越来越流行，它很难跟上。

So, if you have interesting streak insights to send my way, I would love to hear them.

因此，如果您有有趣的连胜见解要发送给我，我很想听听。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that, a collection of all the best ways of doing streaks.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个，它集合了所有最好的连续训练方法。

Jackson, just I want to say congrats to your team and you for having so much impact.

杰克逊，我只想祝贺你的团队和你所产生的巨大影响。

This is like the dream of a lot of PMs and teams, is to see this much impact and continue to ship wins, and so congrats, nice work.

这就像很多产品经理和团队的梦想，就是看到如此大的影响并继续取得胜利，所以恭喜你，干得好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thanks for .

莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢谢。

And with that, Jackson, thanks so much for being here.

杰克逊，非常感谢您来到这里。

Jackson Shuttleworth: Yeah, thank you Lenny, this was a lot of fun.

Jackson Shuttleworth：是的，谢谢你，莱尼，这很有趣。

Same.

相同的。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening, if you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

大家再见。：非常感谢您的收听，如果您觉得本文有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny'sPodcasts.com.

您可以在 Lenny'sPodcasts.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。