Notion's lost years, near collapse during COVID, staying small to move fast, building horizontal
Lenny Rachitsky: The way you described the early years of Notion, you described the first three to four years as the lost years.
Lenny Rachitsky：按照您描述 Notion 早年的方式，您将前三到四年描述为失落的岁月。
Ivan Zhao: We try many different versions.
赵伊凡：我们尝试了很多不同的版本。
The first version, okay, everybody can make and create their software, so let's just build a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that.
第一个版本，好吧，每个人都可以制作和创建他们的软件，所以让我们构建一个非常简单的开发人员工具，以便更多的人可以做到这一点。
We tried that a couple of years and learned that actually most people just don't care.
我们尝试了几年，发现实际上大多数人并不关心。
Our realization is actually let's hide our vision, which is everybody can create their software in the form factor that people do care.
我们的认识实际上是让我们隐藏我们的愿景，即每个人都可以按照人们关心的形式创建他们的软件。
So what kind of tool do people use every day?
那么人们每天都使用什么样的工具呢？
Productivity software.
生产力软件。
It took us two years to realize we need to build a productivity tool.
我们花了两年时间才意识到我们需要构建一个生产力工具。
We called it sugar-coated broccoli.
我们称之为糖衣西兰花。
People don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar, so it gave them the sugar then hide your broccoli inside of it.
人们不想吃西兰花，但人们喜欢糖，所以它给了他们糖，然后把西兰花藏在里面。
Lenny Rachitsky: What other elements do you think are key to you finding something that actually ended up working?
Lenny Rachitsky：您认为还有哪些其他因素对您找到真正有效的东西至关重要？
Ivan Zhao: What is the building a product or business.
赵伊凡：什么是打造产品或业务。
You want user.
你想要用户。
You want revenue.
你想要收入。
That's the product business.
这就是产品业务。
And building for something you want the world to have is building for your value.
为你希望世界拥有的东西而建设就是为你的价值而建设。
You have some taste.
你有点品味。
You have some aesthetic.
你有一定的审美观。
There are different energy.
有不同的能量。
You need to create a balance.
你需要创造一个平衡。
Too much of yourself.
太把自己当回事了。
Then there's no users.
那么就没有用户了。
Then you're just doing our project.
那么你就只是做我们的项目。
And too much for business, you're building a commodity.
对于商业来说，你正在构建一种商品，这太过分了。
Lenny Rachitsky: The way you think about Notion, it's almost like a philosophy of how to work and be versus just a productivity tool.
Lenny Rachitsky：从你对 Notion 的看法来看，它几乎就像是一种关于如何工作和存在的哲学，而不仅仅是一种生产力工具。
And so I'm just curious how you think about the relationship between tools and human potential.
所以我很好奇你如何看待工具和人类潜力之间的关系。
Ivan Zhao: Tools are extensions of us.
赵伊凡：工具是我们的延伸。
And once they extend us, once we shape them, once we bring them to world, they can come back to shape us.
一旦它们扩展了我们，一旦我们塑造了它们，一旦我们将它们带到了世界，它们就可以回来塑造我们。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Ivan Zhao.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的嘉宾是赵伊凡。
Ivan is the co-founder and CEO of Notion.
Ivan 是 Notion 的联合创始人兼首席执行官。
Ivan is a really unique and also a deeply philosophical founder who doesn't do a lot of podcasts, so I'm really excited to share a glimpse into how he built one of the most beloved and most popular products in the world.
伊万（Ivan）是一位非常独特且具有深刻哲学思想的创始人，他不做很多播客，所以我很高兴能分享他如何打造世界上最受欢迎和最受欢迎的产品之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: We talk about the first three to four years of Notion that he describes as the lost years, how he was able to get into a great school in China by winning a programming contest, the joy and suffering of building a successful horizontal product, plus his approach to staying lean and craft and making trade-offs and also leadership.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们谈论了 Notion 的前三到四年，他将其描述为“失去的岁月”，他如何通过赢得编程竞赛进入中国一所优秀的学校，构建成功的横向产品的快乐和痛苦，以及他保持精益和工艺、做出权衡和领导力的方法。
Also, a wild story about how Notion almost died during COVID because the one database that everything lived in almost ran out of space.
另外，还有一个关于 Notion 在新冠疫情期间差点消亡的疯狂故事，因为所有内容所在的数据库几乎耗尽了空间。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
Also, if you become a paid annual subscriber of my newsletter, you now get a year free of Notion Pro and Perplexity Pro and Superhuman and Linear and Granola.
另外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度付费订阅者，您现在可以免费使用一年的 Notion Pro、Perplexity Pro、Super human、Linear 和 Granola。
Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com.
请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 进行查看。
With that, I bring you Ivan Zhao.
接下来，我为您带来赵伊凡。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Eppo 为您带来。
Eppo is a next generation A-B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams, companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp, and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A-B 测试和功能管理平台，Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。
Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features, and Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.
实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要，Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。
Lenny Rachitsky: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.
Lenny Rachitsky：当我在 Airbnb 时，我最喜欢的事情之一就是我们的实验平台，在这里我可以轻松地设置实验、解决问题并自行分析性能。
Eppo does all that and more With advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time, and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance, and out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytic cycles.
Eppo 可以做到这一切，甚至更多。先进的统计方法可以帮助您缩短数周的实验时间，可访问的 UI 可以更深入地了解性能，开箱即用的报告可以帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期。
Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A-B testing flywheel.
Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A-B 测试飞轮的新想法。
Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product, growth, machine learning, monetization and email marketing.
Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品、增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。
Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity.
请访问 geteppo.com/lenny 查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。
That's geteppo.com/lenny.
那是 geteppo.com/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Airtable ProductCentral, the unified system that brings your entire product org together in one place.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Airtable ProductCentral 为您带来，这是一个将您的整个产品组织聚集到一个地方的统一系统。
No more scattered tools.
不再需要分散的工具。
No more misaligned teams.
不再有错位的团队。
If you're like most product leaders, you're tired of constant context switching between tools.
如果您像大多数产品负责人一样，您就会厌倦工具之间不断的上下文切换。
That's why Airtable built ProductCentral after decades of working with world-class product companies.
这就是 Airtable 在与世界一流产品公司合作数十年后创建 ProductCentral 的原因。
Think of it as mission control for your entire product organization.
将其视为整个产品组织的任务控制。
Unlike rigid point solutions, ProductCentral powers everything, from resourcing to voice of customer, to roadmapping, to launch execution.
与严格的单点解决方案不同，ProductCentral 为一切提供支持，从资源到客户声音，到路线图，再到启动执行。
And because it's built on Airtable's no-code platform, you can customize every workflow to match exactly how your team works.
由于它建立在 Airtable 的无代码平台上，因此您可以自定义每个工作流程以完全匹配您团队的工作方式。
No limitations, no compromises.
没有限制，没有妥协。
Ready to see it in action?
准备好看看它的实际效果了吗？
Head to airtable.com/lenny to book a demo.
前往airtable.com/lenny 预订演示。
That's airtable.com/lenny.
这是airtable.com/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: Ivan, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：Ivan，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know you don't do a lot of podcasts, and so I'm very honored that you're here.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道你做的播客不多，所以我很荣幸你能来到这里。
I want to start with the story of Ivan.
我想从伊万的故事开始。
Your background is quite unique for a founder of a $10 billion plus tech company, and I don't think a lot of people know it.
对于一家价值超过 100 亿美元的科技公司的创始人来说，你的背景非常独特，我认为很多人都不知道这一点。
For example, you grew up in a small town in China.
例如，您在中国的一个小镇长大。
And the way you got out of there, the way you got into tech is pretty interesting.
你离开那里、进入科技领域的方式非常有趣。
Can you just walk us through that early years of Ivan and how you got out there?
您能给我们介绍一下伊万的早年经历以及您是如何走出困境的吗？
Ivan Zhao: Yeah.
赵伊凡：是的。
I think a small town in China, the definition, it's actually 4 million people.
我认为中国的一个小镇的定义，实际上有400万人口。
It is called Urumqi.
它叫乌鲁木齐。
It's in the northwest desert part of China.
它位于中国西北沙漠地区。
So I grew up there and then I moved into...
所以我在那里长大，然后我搬到了......
My mom took me to Beijing, the capital of China.
我妈妈带我去了中国的首都北京。
And that's actually how I got into programming, coding, because I'm from somewhere else and in order to go into good school in the capital, you need to win some kind of competition.
这实际上就是我进入编程、编码的方式，因为我来自其他地方，为了进入首都的好学校，你需要赢得某种比赛。
And there's different paths.
而且有不同的路径。
You can get at math or you can get at programming like Information Olympiad.
你可以学习数学，也可以学习编程，比如信息奥林匹克。
I was really into computer games at the time so of course I picked the programming one so I can play computers all day long.
我当时非常喜欢电脑游戏，所以我当然选择了编程游戏，这样我就可以整天玩电脑。
And I win some competition and got me to a good school.
我赢得了一些比赛并进入了一所好学校。
So that's how I got into programming.
这就是我进入编程的方式。
Ivan Zhao: Later then, I moved to Canada.
赵伊凡：后来我搬到了加拿大。
When I moved to Canada, got into college, did not study computer science since I already knew how to code, but a lot of video games.
当我搬到加拿大，进入大学时，没有学习计算机科学，因为我已经知道如何编码，而是学习很多电子游戏。
Did a lot of art actually, art and science.
实际上做了很多艺术，艺术和科学。
By the time I graduated college, I realized most of my friends are artists.
当我大学毕业时，我意识到我的大多数朋友都是艺术家。
They need to make their websites, get web portfolio made.
他们需要制作自己的网站，制作网络作品集。
And I'm the only nerd in my art friend circle so I made three or four websites and realized, "Oh, actually people don't know how to create with the software media, computing media." So that got me into want to create a product like Notion today which it allow more people to create tools, create software for their daily work and life.
我是我的艺术朋友圈中唯一的书呆子，所以我制作了三四个网站并意识到，“哦，实际上人们不知道如何使用软件媒体、计算媒体进行创作。”所以这让我想要创建一个像今天的 Notion 这样的产品，它可以让更多的人为他们的日常工作和生活创建工具、软件。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
So going back to get into a great school and to leave the small town, not so small, you had to enter a programming contest.
因此，要回到一所好学校并离开这个不那么小的小镇，你必须参加编程比赛。
And you placed first or second or how well did you actually do in this one?
您排名第一或第二，或者您在这一项中实际表现如何？
Ivan Zhao: Pretty big.
赵伊凡：很大。
Beijing is a big city.
北京是一个大城市。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Incredible.
极好的。
Another stat or a story I heard is that you learned English by watching SpongeBob SquarePants.
我听到的另一个统计数据或故事是，你通过观看《海绵宝宝》来学习英语。
Is that real?
这是真的吗？
Ivan Zhao: Yeah, it's real.
赵伊凡：是的，这是真的。
I moved to Canada pretty late, 16 years old, and what I learned is in China you can learn English but it's typically just grammar and doing exams.
我很晚才搬到加拿大，16岁，我学到的是在中国你可以学英语，但通常只是语法和考试。
What you're missing is the context, the culture.
你缺少的是背景、文化。
So you have to watch SpongeBob or Simpsons to get a sense of humor essentially.
所以你必须看《海绵宝宝》或《辛普森一家》才能从本质上获得幽默感。
You can understand jokes.
你能听懂笑话。
Watching cartoons, it's probably the easiest way to do that.
看动画片可能是最简单的方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And there's another seminal moment in your path.
在你的道路上还有另一个开创性的时刻。
I don't know if it was this point or later, but the Douglas Engelbart paper ended up being a very meaningful moment for you.
我不知道是在此时还是之后，但道格拉斯·恩格尔巴特的论文最终对你来说是一个非常有意义的时刻。
Ivan Zhao: So while I was in Canada in last year of school working on trying to building website from our friends and building a creative tool for them, and then you just look into the history of a creative tool for software, for computing.
赵伊凡：所以，去年我在加拿大上学时，试图从我们的朋友那里建立网站，并为他们构建一个创意工具，然后你就可以了解软件、计算的创意工具的历史。
Eventually arrived at 1960 and '70s.
最终到达了 1960 和 70 年代。
So you realize the first generation of computing pioneers, which is around San Francisco, Stanford areas, South Bay, they actually had the best ideas.
所以你意识到第一代计算先驱，也就是旧金山、斯坦福地区、南湾地区，他们实际上有最好的想法。
For them, people like Douglas Engelbart, Alan Kay, Ted Nelson, those first generation pioneers, for them computing, there shouldn't be a separation between builders and users.
对于他们来说，像道格拉斯·恩格尔巴特（Douglas Engelbart）、艾伦·凯（Alan Kay）、泰德·尼尔森（Ted Nelson）这样的第一代先驱者，对于他们的计算来说，构建者和用户之间不应该分离。
It's the same medium.
这是相同的媒介。
Engelbart's original paper called Augmenting Human Intellect, when I read that paper, it's like holy shit.
恩格尔巴特的原始论文名为“增强人类智力”，当我读到那篇论文时，它就像是天哪。
If you are making software, if you know how to code or design, this is the highest leverage thing you can do for other people.
如果您正在开发软件，如果您知道如何编码或设计，那么这是您可以为其他人做的最高影响力的事情。
So giving them the ability to use computing to augment their problem-solving ability or their intellect, that just got me obsessed with this problem and I want to start a company like Notion.
因此，让他们能够使用计算来增强他们解决问题的能力或智力，这让我对这个问题着迷，我想创办一家像 Notion 这样的公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: It makes me think of Steve Jobs's famous line of how the computer is a bicycle for the mind.
Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起了史蒂夫·乔布斯的名言：计算机是大脑的自行车。
Ivan Zhao: You know what?
赵伊凡：你知道吗？
Steve Jobs is actually at fault of this in some strange ways.
史蒂夫·乔布斯实际上在某些奇怪的方面犯了错。
So the story is...
所以这个故事是...
Actually, the fact.
其实，事实。
It's not a story.
这不是一个故事。
Xerox PARC has working on the first-generation personal computers called Xerox Alto.
Xerox PARC 致力于开发名为 Xerox Alto 的第一代个人计算机。
Alan Kay was one of the main persons behind it.
艾伦·凯是其幕后主要人物之一。
Alto runs down the system called Smalltalk, which is there's no separation between users and users' app.
Alto 运行名为 Smalltalk 的系统，该系统用户和用户的应用程序之间没有分离。
There's no thing called application.
没有什么叫应用程序。
Everything is malleable.
一切都是可塑的。
You can change the tools.
您可以更改工具。
So when Steve Jobs, the famous story is when he went to Xerox PARC to in demo with Alto, he does not...
因此，当史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs），著名的故事是当他去施乐帕洛阿尔托研究中心（Xerox PARC）与 Alto 进行演示时，他并没有……
It's the first time he see graphic user interface, one of the first time, and it's also they present them with this Alto system that everything could change.
这是他第一次看到图形用户界面，也是第一次，也是他们向他们展示了这个一切都可以改变的 Alto 系统。
But he did not see the power of it.
但他并没有看到它的威力。
Even when people would demonstrate like, "Hey," Steve Jobs say, "I don't like this direction of scroll bar direction.
即使人们会表现出“嘿，”史蒂夫·乔布斯说，“我不喜欢滚动条的方向。
When you scroll up and down, it shouldn't scroll the opposite reverse direction." Then people just instantly change the scroll bar direction for him.
当你上下滚动时，它不应该向相反的方向滚动。”然后人们立即为他改变滚动条方向。
Ivan Zhao: That's the power of the original Smalltalk Alto system.
Ivan Zhao：这就是最初的 Smalltalk Alto 系统的强大之处。
He only saw the graphic user interface.
他只看到了图形用户界面。
He did not see the underlying object or the environment power.
他没有看到底层的物体，也没有看到环境的力量。
As the generation of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates made PC, personal computing, popular and they stuck with this an application framework rather than the Smalltalk object framework.
随着史蒂夫·乔布斯和比尔·盖茨这一代人使 PC、个人计算变得流行，他们坚持将其作为应用程序框架而不是 Smalltalk 对象框架。
Then that has all the apps we have today and has the SaaS route we have today.
然后就有了我们今天拥有的所有应用程序以及我们今天拥有的 SaaS 路线。
Lenny Rachitsky: That vision of how products should be sounds very familiar and we'll talk about that later of how you think about Notion, but let's assume to the beginning of Notion, when we were chatting earlier, the way you described the early years of Notion, you started Notion in 2013 and some over 10 years ago at this point, you described the first three to four years is the lost years of Notion.
Lenny Rachitsky：产品应该如何设计的愿景听起来非常熟悉，稍后我们将讨论您如何看待 Notion，但让我们假设 Notion 的开始，当我们之前聊天时，您描述 Notion 早期的方式，您在 2013 年开始了 Notion，大约 10 多年前此时，您描述的前三到四年是 Notion 的失落岁月。
And I think this is actually a really big deal for founders to hear about because there's all these companies these days, you hear these stats, they had 100 million ARR in two years, in under two years now.
我认为这对于创始人来说实际上是一件大事，因为现在有很多公司，你听到这些统计数据，他们在两年内就实现了 1 亿的 ARR，现在还不到两年。
And you don't hear a lot of stories of companies of your scale and success that took three to four years to find product market fit essentially.
你不会听到很多像你这样规模和成功的公司花了三到四年才找到适合市场的产品的故事。
What went on during these lost years as you described them and just how did you stick with it?
在您所描述的那些失落的岁月里发生了什么？您是如何坚持下来的？
That's a long time to stick with something that isn't working.
坚持做一些不起作用的事情需要很长时间。
Ivan Zhao: Because the goal is always building a computing tool.
赵伊凡：因为我们的目标始终是打造一个计算工具。
It's like what product is this?
好像这是什么产品？
It's really hard to shape the product.
产品的塑造确实很难。
The vision is, the dream is there, but the product is very...
愿景是，梦想是有，但产品非常......
There's so many paths.
有很多条路。
We'll try many different versions.
我们将尝试许多不同的版本。
The first version to take, okay, everybody can make and create their software.
第一个版本，好吧，每个人都可以制作和创建他们的软件。
So let's just build a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that.
因此，让我们构建一个非常简单的开发人员工具，以便更多的人可以做到这一点。
We tried that a couple of years and learned that actually most people just don't care.
我们尝试了几年，发现实际上大多数人并不关心。
The majority of people, they wake up, they have report due, they need to get their job done, they don't care creating software to optimize whatever they're doing.
大多数人，他们醒来，他们有到期的报告，他们需要完成他们的工作，他们不关心创建软件来优化他们正在做的事情。
They don't care.
他们不在乎。
So we give to our friends, give to investors.
所以我们给我们的朋友，给投资者。
It did not resonate with people.
并没有引起人们的共鸣。
Ivan Zhao: But we really want to build that tool so we just keep going and our realization is actually, let's hide our vision, which is everybody can create their software, in the form factor that people do care.
赵伊凡：但我们真的很想构建这个工具，所以我们继续前进，我们的实现实际上是，让我们隐藏我们的愿景，即每个人都可以以人们真正关心的形式创建他们的软件。
So what kind of tool do people use every day?
那么人们每天都使用什么样的工具呢？
Productivity software.
生产力软件。
So that's why it came to Notion today.
这就是今天谈到 Notion 的原因。
If you use Notion, Notion are more understood as the productivity suite, but our intent, and if you use Notion, more you discover intent, which is that it has a no-code developer power into it and you can create almost any kind of productivity software using Notion itself.
如果你使用Notion，Notion更容易被理解为生产力套件，但是我们的意图，如果你使用Notion，你会更多地发现意图，那就是它具有无代码开发人员的能力，你可以使用Notion本身创建几乎任何类型的生产力软件。
That took us two plus year to realize.
我们花了两年多的时间才意识到这一点。
So actually the world is not like you.
所以实际上这个世界并不像你。
The world are not developer, designer mind.
世界上没有开发商、设计师的头脑。
That the world is they only care what's in front of them and they're so noisy.
他们只关心眼前的世界，而且他们很吵闹。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a quote that this makes me think about where you said, "The first version of Notion was more about what I wanted than what people wanted."
Lenny Rachitsky：有句话让我想起你所说的，“Notion 的第一个版本更多的是关于我想要什么，而不是人们想要什么。”
Ivan Zhao: It's very much so because sense of maturation is you don't see the world just from your perspective but from outside your perspective.
赵伊凡：非常重要，因为成熟感是你不再仅仅从自己的角度看世界，而是从外部的角度看世界。
At tech, we were young.
在科技界，我们还年轻。
Took us multiple years.
我们花了很多年的时间。
It hit your head straight into the wall to realize that.
当你意识到这一点时，你的头直接撞到了墙上。
People just don't care.
人们只是不在乎。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love the way you phrased that, that you have to hide your vision behind something that people understand and know how to use and...
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你的措辞方式，你必须将你的愿景隐藏在人们理解、知道如何使用和……的背后。
Ivan Zhao: We call it sugar-coated broccoli.
赵伊凡：我们叫它糖衣西兰花。
People don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar, so give them the sugar then hide the broccoli inside of it.
人们不想吃西兰花，但人们喜欢糖，所以给他们糖，然后把西兰花藏在里面。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
The other thing I've heard is that you threw away your code every time, so you rebuilt it many times.
我听说的另一件事是，您每次都会丢弃代码，因此您会多次重建它。
You threw away the code each time.
你每次都扔掉代码。
Ivan Zhao: That's true.
赵伊凡：确实如此。
Actually, it took us four year to get somewhere.
事实上，我们花了四年的时间才到达某个地方。
First two year is that you build too much like developer product.
前两年你构建了太多像开发人员的产品。
Nobody cares.
没人关心。
It took us two year to realize we need to build a productivity tool.
我们花了两年时间才意识到我们需要构建一个生产力工具。
Then it took another year to realize to build this out, but in the middle of that I realized we built on the wrong technical foundation.
然后又花了一年的时间才意识到要构建这个，但在中间我意识到我们建立在错误的技术基础上。
So eight, 10 years ago, there's computing before.
所以八年、十年前，计算就已经出现了。
Right now, all the web app runs on React.
目前，所有 Web 应用程序都在 React 上运行。
Before React wins, there's a competing technology called Web Component from Google.
在 React 获胜之前，有一项来自 Google 的竞争技术，称为 Web Component。
And it makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Web Component feels like a Lego-like, the building block-like, and we're betting on that technology.
Web Component 感觉就像乐高积木一样，我们押注于这项技术。
And then we realize because it's so new, it's just so unstable.
然后我们意识到，因为它太新了，所以太不稳定。
It don't know where the bug come from.
它不知道错误从哪里来。
It's from your source code or from the underlying libraries?
它来自您的源代码还是来自底层库？
Then we have to restart the company, rebuild the whole thing.
然后我们必须重新启动公司，重建整个公司。
Otherwise, we're going to run out of time.
否则，我们的时间就会不够了。
So we set a code base.
所以我们设置了一个代码库。
We set a company so we can build on our own more orthodox technology foundation.
我们成立了一家公司，这样我们就可以建立自己更正统的技术基础。
Lenny Rachitsky: How did you actually stay solvent all this time?
Lenny Rachitsky：您是如何一直保持偿付能力的？
A lot of people want to keep working at an idea.
很多人都想继续为一个想法而努力。
Oftentimes they need to pay the bills.
他们常常需要支付账单。
How practically were you able to keep working for three to four years?
你能坚持工作三到四年吗？
I know there's a story of your mom loaning you some money during that time.
我知道有一个故事，说的是那段时间你妈妈借给你一些钱。
Ivan Zhao: Well, Chinese mom always can help, and I'm a single child.
赵伊凡：嗯，中国妈妈总是能帮忙，而且我是独生子。
Yeah, actually my mom helped me kickstart the company because I'm Canadian.
是的，实际上我妈妈帮助我创办了公司，因为我是加拿大人。
In order to move to US, you need to register a company.
为了搬到美国，您需要注册一家公司。
So my mom helped me with the initial and raised the money.
所以我妈妈帮我完成了初始融资并筹集了资金。
I returned the money to her.
我把钱还给了她。
Then we run out of the money so, "Hey mom, can I borrow that just to bridge us?" Which she did.
然后我们的钱用完了，所以，“嘿妈妈，我可以借这个来帮助我们吗？”她做到了。
I'm really grateful for that.
我对此非常感激。
How we bridged?
我们是如何搭桥的？
How do you last here so long?
你怎么能在这里坚持这么久？
Because the thing you want to create does not exist, which what is called Notions.
因为你想要创造的东西并不存在，这就是所谓的概念。
It's a Lego for software.
这是软件的乐高。
It doesn't quite exist.
它并不完全存在。
There's a Lego for Lego.
有乐高的乐高。
You can see that in furniture exist, but Lego for software at the usable mass market adoption level doesn't quite exist.
您可以看到，在家具中存在这种情况，但在可用的大众市场采用水平上用于软件的乐高并不完全存在。
And you just want that thing to exist.
而你只是希望那个东西存在。
And I grew up with Legos.
我是和乐高一起长大的。
It's the only toy I ever wanted, and I want the same feeling of creativity and playfulness to the toy that people can use every day.
这是我唯一想要的玩具，我希望人们每天都能使用的玩具具有同样的创造力和趣味性。
And my co-founder, Simon, feels the same way.
我的联合创始人西蒙也有同样的感觉。
Lego is the only thing he wanted for every Christmas.
乐高是他每年圣诞节唯一想要的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: Have you guys seen Magna-Tiles though?
Lenny Rachitsky：你们看过 Magna-Tiles 吗？
I have a one-and-a-half-year-old and Magna-Tiles are quite delightful.
我有一个一岁半的孩子，Magna-Tiles 非常令人愉快。
I think it's like a pre-Lego.
我认为它就像一个前乐高。
The children can play them.
孩子们可以玩它们。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
It's like they're little magnetic plastic planes and then you can build much bigger things really quickly.
就像它们是小的磁性塑料飞机，然后你可以很快地建造更大的东西。
It's more for babies, but I'm having a blast.
这更适合婴儿，但我玩得很开心。
Ivan Zhao: Oh, I see it.
赵伊凡：哦，我明白了。
It's like...
这就像...
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's a different version of Legos.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是乐高积木的不同版本。
I like that you're in real-time looking it up.
我喜欢你实时查找。
You're like, "Okay, our new vision Magna-Tiles for software."
你会说，“好吧，我们的软件新愿景 Magna-Tiles。”
Ivan Zhao: Now, most people know, "Oh, Magna-Tile." Idea is the same.
赵伊凡：现在，大多数人都知道，“哦，Magna-Tile。”想法是一样的。
Modular, right?
模块化，对吧？
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, creativity.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，创造力。
Okay, back to your story.
好吧，回到你的故事。
So there's also a moment where you moved to Japan.
所以还有一个你搬到日本的时刻。
Just what was that about?
那到底是怎么回事？
Is that just escape and disconnect?
这只是逃避和断开连接吗？
Ivan Zhao: Yeah, that was during one of the rebuild phases.
赵伊凡：是的，那是在重建阶段之一。
During the...
期间...
We know what the product should look like.
我们知道产品应该是什么样子。
It should be a productivity software with a Lego power hiding inside of it.
它应该是一个生产力软件，里面隐藏着乐高的力量。
We build on the wrong technical foundation.
我们建立在错误的技术基础上。
And if we continue to build on the wrong ones, we're going to run out of money.
如果我们继续在错误的基础上继续建设，我们就会耗尽资金。
Company won't exist.
公司将不存在。
So we decided to lay off everybody.
所以我们决定解雇所有人。
At that time, the Notion was five people.
当时，Notion有五个人。
The layout I brought back to me and Simon, two people.
我把布局带回给我和西蒙两个人。
And morale obviously there was really low.
士气显然非常低落。
You have to say goodbye to your teammates.
你必须和你的队友说再见。
And so we have the idea, "Let's just go somewhere that we've never been to change the scenery a little bit." And Japan is always top on our list.
于是我们就有了这样的想法：“我们去一个我们从未去过的地方，稍微改变一下风景吧。”日本始终位居我们名单的首位。
Ivan Zhao: So the funny thing is if we...
赵伊凡：所以有趣的是，如果我们...
And we subleased our apartment and office.
我们转租了我们的公寓和办公室。
We're actually making money living in Japan and then San Francisco.
我们实际上在日本和旧金山生活赚钱。
So we did that for a while.
所以我们这样做了一段时间。
We actually travel around the world for a while just to change it up, me and Sam just coding every day and design every day.
实际上，我们环游世界一段时间只是为了改变它，我和 Sam 每天都在编码和设计。
That's some of the happiest moments.
那是一些最幸福的时刻。
Birthday every day.
每天过生日。
Lenny Rachitsky: I saw a stat you're coding 18 hours a day.
Lenny Rachitsky：我看到了一个统计数据，你每天编码 18 小时。
Here's the quote I heard, :We just code, code, code.
这是我听到的一句话：我们只是编码、编码、编码。
Then hey, let's go for food.
那么，嘿，我们去吃饭吧。
Then we go eat, go back to work, and do it again."
然后我们去吃饭，回去工作，然后再做一次。”
Ivan Zhao: Because me and him working so well now.
赵伊凡：因为我和他现在合作得很好。
Even back then, it's like you know what each other other people are thinking and you can just cross through the problem space really quickly.
即使在那时，你就好像知道其他人在想什么，并且可以很快地跨越问题空间。
The technical product space, design space, and just non-stop of shaping stuff.
技术产品空间、设计空间，以及不间断的塑造东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: So maybe just to close out this thread, for people, for founders that are either struggling and just can't find a thing that's working, "I've been working on something for a long time," I'm curious what advice you'd share for sticking with it.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以也许只是为了结束这个话题，对于那些正在苦苦挣扎却找不到有效方法的创始人来说，“我已经在某件事上工作了很长时间”，我很好奇你会分享什么建议来坚持下去。
And I'll share things I've heard you say so far and I'm curious if there's something you'd add.
我将分享到目前为止我听到你说的事情，我很好奇你是否会添加一些内容。
One is you just believe this needs to exist in the world and you need to really feel this, "I need this to be a thing." I think there's an element of staying lean, like you've let everyone go and it's just you and Simon again.
一是你只是相信这需要存在于世界上，并且你需要真正感受到这一点，“我需要它成为一件事。”我认为有一个保持精简的要素，就像你让所有人都走了，只剩下你和西蒙了。
There's also this element of disconnecting almost and just going to a different location and just like, "Let's just reset." What other elements do you think are key to you finding something that actually ended up working?
还有一种几乎断开连接的元素，只是去一个不同的位置，就像“让我们重置一下”。您认为还有哪些其他因素对于您找到真正有效的东西至关重要？
Ivan Zhao: I'm lucky and Simon lucky that high is never too high, low is never too low for us, so somehow it wasn't feeling too down.
赵伊凡：我很幸运，西蒙也很幸运，对我们来说，高永远不会太高，低永远不会太低，所以不知怎的，我们并没有感到太沮丧。
Whenever I feel down, I just go to sleep and next day I'm just reset.
每当我感到情绪低落时，我就会去睡觉，第二天我就会恢复正常。
So that's lucky for me.
所以这对我来说很幸运。
Definitely don't be afraid to reset.
绝对不要害怕重置。
I think courage is quite important because oftentimes you're working on things don't matter, but momentum just took you there.
我认为勇气非常重要，因为很多时候你正在做的事情并不重要，但动力会把你带到那里。
Your first point of building something you want the world to have.
你的首要目标是构建你希望世界拥有的东西。
What is the building a product or business?
什么是构建产品或业务？
You want user.
你想要用户。
You want revenue.
你想要收入。
That's a product business.
这就是产品业务。
It's almost like a sports.
这几乎就像一项运动。
The market is the arena.
市场就是竞技场。
Then you'd want to optimize the scorecard where it's building for winning.
然后，您需要优化为获胜而构建的记分卡。
And I grew up playing sports.
我从小就喜欢运动。
I like to compete so I like that.
我喜欢竞争，所以我喜欢这样。
Ivan Zhao: And building for something you want the world to have is building for your value.
赵伊凡：为你希望世界拥有的东西而建设就是为你的价值而建设。
You have some taste.
你有点品味。
You have some aesthetic.
你有一定的审美观。
You have some values.
你有一些价值观。
You want the world to have more of that.
你希望世界上有更多这样的东西。
They are different energy.
它们是不同的能量。
I realize actually fairly recently, they're really different.
我最近才意识到，它们真的很不同。
Depends on which day I wake up, I might be in different mood for things, but building for value it's more lasting and more fulfilling.
取决于我哪一天醒来，我对事物的心情可能会有所不同，但构建价值会更持久、更充实。
Looking in the thing we're building today and looking back, I find most proud of thing I create something authentic to myself and happen to be also useful for others, and that just keeps you going.
回顾我们今天正在构建的东西，我发现最值得自豪的事情是我创造了一些对自己来说真实的东西，并且碰巧对其他人也有用，这只会让你继续前进。
And that feels like a more durable energy source for all those dark years, loss years during Notion, and still every day for me.
对于那些黑暗的岁月、Notion 时期的失落岁月以及我的每一天来说，这感觉就像是一种更持久的能源。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting you say that because also there's this aspect of it wasn't working initially because you're building it for yourself and not for people, but what I'm hearing is it's still important to build a thing that you are still excited about but also have you go back and forth.
Lenny Rachitsky：你说的很有趣，因为它的这个方面最初不起作用，因为你是为自己而不是为别人构建它，但我听到的是，构建一个你仍然感到兴奋但也让你来回走动的东西仍然很重要。
Here's what the business needs and here's the thing I'm excited about.
这就是企业所需要的，这也是我感到兴奋的。
Ivan Zhao: Yeah, really a cue.
赵伊凡：是的，确实是一个暗示。
Almost like a therapist, right?
几乎就像一个治疗师，对吧？
It's true.
这是真的。
You're building too much for your own self and value without realizing at the end of the day, if you're building a product and tool has to be used by others, you need to create a balance.
你为自己和价值构建了太多东西，却没有意识到，如果你正在构建的产品和工具必须由其他人使用，那么你需要创造一个平衡。
Too much of yourself, then there's no users.
自己太过分了，那就没有用户了。
Then you're just doing our project.
那么你就只是做我们的项目。
You're just doing a research project.
你只是在做一个研究项目。
And too much for a business, you're building a commodity.
对于企业来说，你正在构建一种商品，这太过分了。
So where's the spectrum?
那么频谱在哪里呢？
Yeah, it's never ending spectrum.
是的，它的频谱永无止境。
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，好的。
So I'll summarize some of those things you shared of just how to stick with it and stay with an idea and not give up.
因此，我将总结您分享的一些内容，即如何坚持下去，坚持一个想法而不放弃。
So I love that you said just get sleep, very Brian Johnson of you, just like, "Get some sleep when it's a real down day.
所以我喜欢你说的“睡觉吧”，非常像布莱恩·约翰逊（Brian Johnson），就像，“在心情低落的时候，睡一会儿。
There'll be another day tomorrow." Really simple but...
明天还会有新的一天。”真的很简单，但是...
Ivan Zhao: It's like a daily personal physical reset.
赵伊凡：这就像每天的个人身体重置。
You can reset your code base.
您可以重置您的代码库。
You can reset your mental model.
你可以重置你的心理模型。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
And then there's also, I love these points.
还有，我喜欢这些观点。
Don't be afraid to reset, as you just said.
正如您刚才所说，不要害怕重置。
Tobi Lutke was on the podcast.
托比·卢特克 (Tobi Lutke) 参加了播客。
He said the same thing.
他也说了同样的话。
"Just be comfortable with some cost.
“只要对一些成本感到满意即可。
I have done all this already and I will throw it away and start again and that's okay."
我已经完成了这一切，我会把它扔掉并重新开始，那没关系。”
Ivan Zhao: Yeah.
赵伊凡：是的。
I think it's not just a self-help way to say don't be afraid to reset.
我认为这不仅仅是一种自助方式，表示不要害怕重置。
That's like, that's okay, that's fine.
就好像，没关系，没关系。
I think the more interesting point here, it's like you can create progress through better abstractions.
我认为这里更有趣的一点是，你可以通过更好的抽象来创造进步。
And that thing compounds faster, can catch up to all the things you build much quicker than you ever thought.
而且这个东西复合得更快，可以赶上你建造的所有东西，比你想象的要快得多。
Or humans are not thinking, not good at thinking in terms of abstraction or exponentials.
或者人类不思考，不善于用抽象或指数的方式思考。
We're thinking in terms of linearly.
我们以线性的方式思考。
If you just reset it and you find a better way to do it, you can get all the thing you have to some cost recovered really quickly.
如果你只是重置它并找到更好的方法来做到这一点，你就可以很快地以一定的成本收回你所拥有的所有东西。
Ivan Zhao: So actually going back to the computing pioneers part, small talk, one of the first system and a huge influence for Notion was really tiny code base and inspired by Lisp, which is another programming languages and probably a hundred lines of code or something.
赵伊凡：所以实际上回到计算先驱部分，闲聊，第一个系统之一，对 Notion 产生巨大影响，代码库非常小，受到 Lisp 的启发，Lisp 是另一种编程语言，可能有一百行代码之类的。
The kernel of things could be really small, but just like math.
事物的核心可能非常小，但就像数学一样。
It can compound.
它可以复合。
It can have complex behavior that unlocks so much value and things for you.
它可以具有复杂的行为，为您释放如此多的价值和事物。
But if you just find those right, you can catch up to all the things you did.
但如果你找到了正确的方法，你就能赶上你所做的所有事情。
You are free to lose really quickly.
你可以很快就失去。
So I think that's the kernel of why reset is so powerful.
所以我认为这就是重置为何如此强大的核心。
Lenny Rachitsky: And we're seeing exactly what you're describing in LLM advancements these days.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们这些天在法学硕士的进步中看到了您所描述的情况。
All these companies have been working on this for so long and then they've cracked an abstraction of how to think about scaling these systems.
所有这些公司已经在这方面努力了很长时间，然后他们已经破解了如何考虑扩展这些系统的抽象概念。
And now just people launch them and are immediately where the companies that have been working this for decades are today because they are building off these abstractions as you described in these.
现在，只要人们推出它们，就会立即成为几十年来一直致力于此的公司今天所处的位置，因为他们正在构建这些抽象，正如您在这些中所描述的那样。
Ivan Zhao: Trying to caught up the US really quickly.
赵伊凡：试图很快赶上美国。
Lenny Rachitsky: With DeepSeek, yeah.
Lenny Rachitsky：通过 DeepSeek，是的。
The point you also made about momentum, be weary of momentum taking you in direction and moving in a different...
你还提到了关于动力的观点，要厌倦动力带你走向不同的方向并朝着不同的方向前进……
not being stuck to that direction is exactly the way I think the chain of thought models network actually where generally LLMs are like, next word, next word, next word, next word.
不拘泥于这个方向正是我认为思想链模型网络的方式，实际上法学硕士通常是这样的，下一个词，下一个词，下一个词，下一个词。
And if they ever make a wrong turn, they're stuck.
如果他们转错了方向，他们就会被困住。
They keep going from that path.
他们继续沿着这条路走下去。
And these chain of thought models are now good at just like, wait, let me rethink.
这些思维链模型现在擅长的是，等等，让我重新思考。
Is this actually the right path or should I start again?
这实际上是正确的道路还是我应该重新开始？
So I feel like AI has almost figured out exactly what you're describing.
所以我觉得人工智能几乎已经准确地弄清楚了你所描述的内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计。
Okay, last question about the early years.
好的，最后一个问题是关于早年的。
Everyone's always wondering what does product market fit feel like?
每个人总是想知道产品市场契合度是什么样的？
You worked on it for three to four years.
你为此工作了三四年。
What was the moment?
那一刻是什么时候？
What would it look like?
它会是什么样子？
What was different when you're like, "Okay, this is going to work"?
当你说“好吧，这会起作用”时，有什么不同？
Ivan Zhao: I think going back to me and Simon, high is never that high, low is never that low, it never hit us as a binary state.
赵伊凡：我想回到我和西蒙身上，高从来没有那么高，低也从来没有那么低，它从来没有以二元状态的形式冲击我们。
Just like, "Oh, good.
就像，“哦，很好。
We have people who care about this thing we make now.
我们有人关心我们现在制造的东西。
Oh, good.
哦，很好。
People reach out to us who are paying us." And it's a very gradual ramp.
人们向我们伸出援手，并付钱给我们。”这是一个非常渐进的斜坡。
Maybe that's why early days when it's really the lost eras, it doesn't feel too low because it just...
也许这就是为什么在早期，当它真的是失落的时代时，它并不会感觉太低，因为它只是......
Even for Notion today, it feels like it's so small in terms of where it could be.
即使对于今天的 Notion，感觉它的作用也很小。
It just they keep going, right?
他们只是继续前进，对吗？
It's a less of a milestone way to thinking about things.
这并不是一种具有里程碑意义的思考方式。
It's more just like, "Can we do the same that's in our head and better than we did last week?" way of thinking about things.
这更像是，“我们能做我们脑子里同样的事情，而且比上周做得更好吗？”思考事物的方式。
So there's a such movement that product market, boom, milestone achieved.
因此，出现了产品市场繁荣、里程碑式的发展。
Didn't feel that way.
没有那种感觉。
Lenny Rachitsky: I've heard that from a lot of founders actually.
Lenny Rachitsky：实际上我从很多创始人那里都听到过这样的说法。
Was there a moment in that point of just like, "Oh, this is different," or, "Maybe it's going to work this time"?
是否有过这样的时刻，“哦，这不一样”，或者“也许这次会起作用”？
Ivan Zhao: I think for a while, okay, once we start revenue, product grows faster now.
赵伊凡：我想有一段时间，好吧，一旦我们开始收入，产品现在增长得更快。
Investors start knocking on the door was like, I remember one day it's like there's a dog food, dog treats sent to our entire office.
投资者开始敲门，我记得有一天，就像有一份狗粮、狗粮被送到我们整个办公室。
So first of all, office wasn't public, the address.
首先，办公室的地址不是公开的。
And the dog treats, why do people want this so much?
还有狗零食，为什么人们这么想要这个？
So that was a moment I paused a little bit and I guess there's enough attraction for investors.
所以那一刻我停顿了一下，我想这对投资者有足够的吸引力。
Lenny Rachitsky: And the dog treats were trying to...
Lenny Rachitsky：狗粮试图......
It was like a gift to be like, "Hey, you should talk to us.
这就像一份礼物，“嘿，你应该和我们谈谈。
We're sending this fun gift."
我们正在送出这份有趣的礼物。”
Ivan Zhao: Yeah, because of the way how we just hire someone in the office as a dog.
赵伊凡：是的，因为我们在办公室里雇佣某人就像狗一样。
Then I think we post on Twitter or something.
然后我想我们会在推特或者其他什么地方发帖。
And I said, "Why did this show up to our office?" Someone really hustled into where we are in our office address and follow us on Twitter.
我说：“为什么这个会出现在我们办公室？”有人真的冲进了我们的办公地址并在 Twitter 上关注了我们。
Lenny Rachitsky: Did you end up taking their money?
Lenny Rachitsky：你最终拿走了他们的钱吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, later.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，稍后再说。
Okay, it's long game.
好吧，这是一场漫长的比赛。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
So I've never heard that before.
所以我以前从未听说过。
Sign product market fit as VCs are starting to...
随着风险投资开始......签署产品市场契合度
You start getting a lot more messaging and cold outreach from VCs.
你开始从风投那里得到更多的信息和冷漠的联系。
Ivan Zhao: Actually, I had one of our investor, it's really helpful because all those years you just like there's no feedback loop.
赵伊凡：实际上，我有一位投资者，这真的很有帮助，因为这些年来你只是喜欢没有反馈循环。
You just go for it.
你就去做吧。
Then the feedback loop gradually show up.
然后反馈循环逐渐显现出来。
Then for a while it's, oh, VCs start knocking on doors.
然后有一段时间，哦，风险投资家开始敲门。
So I should talk to those people.
所以我应该和那些人谈谈。
The people like what we're doing.
人们喜欢我们正在做的事情。
I did some meetings, quite a few of meetings.
我参加了一些会议，相当多的会议。
Maybe it doesn't...
也许这并不...
I realize and one of the members is saying, "Ivan, what are you doing?
我意识到其中一名成员说：“伊万，你在做什么？
You clearly don't need money.
显然你不需要钱。
You're just trying to feel good to do external validation about this." And I said, "Oh, that's so true." It doesn't help us make a better product and the truth is with what customer tell us.
你只是想通过外部验证来感觉良好。”我说：“哦，那是真的。”它并不能帮助我们制造出更好的产品，事实是客户告诉我们的。
Then we just went back to building.
然后我们就回到大楼。
I went back to hardcore building, no meeting modes.
我回到了硬核建筑，没有会议模式。
That's where the dog food story came about and realized, "Oh." It's interesting.
这就是狗粮故事的由来，我意识到，“哦。”这很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: You mentioned this investor, they said it was really helpful.
Lenny Rachitsky：你提到了这位投资者，他们说这真的很有帮助。
Is you want to give them some credit or do you want to keep-
你是想给予他们一些荣誉还是想保留——
Ivan Zhao: Oh, Shana Fisher.
赵伊凡：噢，夏娜·费舍尔。
She's in New York.
她在纽约。
Ivan Zhao: Yeah, she's like another therapist, right?
赵伊凡：是的，她就像另一位治疗师，对吧？
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Sinch, the customer communications cloud.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由客户通信云 Sinch 为您带来。
Here's the thing about digital customer communications.
这是关于数字客户沟通的事情。
Whether you're sending marketing campaigns, verification codes or account alerts, you need them to reach users reliably.
无论您是发送营销活动、验证码还是帐户提醒，您都需要它们可靠地联系用户。
That's where Sinch comes in.
这就是辛奇的用武之地。
Over 150,000 businesses, including eight of the top 10 largest tech companies globally, use Sinch's API to build messaging, email, and calling into their products.
超过 150,000 家企业（包括全球十大科技公司中的八家）使用 Sinch 的 API 在其产品中构建消息传递、电子邮件和通话功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: And there's something big happening in messaging that product teams need to know about, Rich Communication Services or RCS.
Lenny Rachitsky：产品团队需要了解消息传递领域正在发生的重大变化，即丰富的通信服务或 RCS。
Think of RCS as SMS 2.0.
将 RCS 视为 SMS 2.0。
Instead of getting texts from a random number, your users will see your verified company name and logo without needing to download anything new.
您的用户将看到您经过验证的公司名称和徽标，而不是从随机数字中获取文本，而无需下载任何新内容。
It's a more secure and branded experience, plus you get features like interactive carousels and suggested replies.
这是一种更安全、更品牌化的体验，此外，您还可以获得交互式轮播和建议回复等功能。
And here's why this matters.
这就是为什么这很重要。
US carriers are starting to adopt RCS.
美国运营商开始采用 RCS。
Sinch is already helping major brands send RCS around the world, and they're helping Lenny's podcast listeners get registered first before the rush hits the US market.
Sinch 已经在帮助各大品牌向世界各地发送 RCS，并且他们正在帮助 Lenny 的播客听众在热潮席卷美国市场之前首先注册。
Learn more and get started at sinch.com/lenny.
如需了解更多信息并开始使用，请访问sinch.com/lenny。
That's S-I-N-C-H.com/lenny.
那是 S-I-N-C-H.com/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to shift to talking about Notion today and the way you've approached it and a good segue is what you've been talking about right now is how lean and efficient you've been and how that's been a big priority for you.
Lenny Rachitsky：我今天想谈谈 Notion，以及您处理它的方式以及您现在一直在谈论的一个良好的延续，即您的精简和高效程度，以及这对您来说是多么重要。
So a few stats I've seen.
这是我看到的一些统计数据。
One is that you guys are profitable.
一是你们是有利可图的。
You've been profitable for a couple of years now.
您已经盈利几年了。
I don't know if you've spent even the money you've raised.
我不知道你筹集的钱是否已经花掉了。
I think most of it is still in the...
我想大部分还是在...
Lenny Rachitsky: It's still in the bank.
Lenny Rachitsky：它还在银行里。
You're nodding, if you're on YouTube.
如果您在 YouTube 上，您就会点头。
You didn't have a salesperson until you hit over 10 million ARR.
在您的 ARR 超过 1000 万之前，您没有销售人员。
You hired your first PM at 50 people.
您聘请了第一位 PM，人数为 50 人。
You've always kept the team generally really small.
你一直保持团队规模很小。
Why is that been important to you?
为什么这对你很重要？
It's very cool now.
现在很酷。
Everyone's like, "Of course, that's how it should be." But for the past decade, that has not been the case.
每个人都会说：“当然，事情就应该这样。”但在过去的十年里，情况并非如此。
You've always been that way.
你一直都是这样。
Why has that been so important?
为什么这如此重要？
Ivan Zhao: I think going back to the abstraction system way of problem solving, I think we're lucky that me and Simon and Akshay, we have the skillset you probably can run a whole company, which is a couple of us, I can design, I can do marketing, storytelling, close sales deals.
赵伊凡：我认为回到解决问题的抽象系统方式，我认为我们很幸运，我和西蒙和阿克谢，我们拥有你可能可以经营整个公司的技能，就我们几个人来说，我可以设计，我可以做营销，讲故事，完成销售交易。
So you realize you don't need a lot.
所以你意识到你不需要太多。
But when you can do a lot at the same time or hire people who can do that, naturally keep the company small.
但是，当你可以同时做很多事情或者雇用可以做很多事情的人时，自然会保持公司规模较小。
And you all know you're doing product management.
你们都知道自己正在做产品管理。
The overhead is actually more from internal communication.
开销实际上更多来自内部沟通。
It's really hard to get people's mind to be aligned on things, to see the world in the same way.
让人们的思想在事物上保持一致，以同样的方式看待世界确实很难。
And the part that you do need people, maybe you can solve better through systems, through better tools.
而你确实需要人的部分，也许你可以通过系统、通过更好的工具更好地解决。
Ivan Zhao: Notion itself is a meta tool to build other tools.
赵伊凡：Notion 本身就是一个构建其他工具的元工具。
So we pretty much run everything on Notion.
所以我们几乎所有的事情都在 Notion 上运行。
We use the same mindset to build our company.
我们用同样的心态来建立我们的公司。
And accidentally, that keep our headcount low, keep our company profitable, which then puts you on a positive treadmill of you don't have to go for the next 18, 24 months to find money.
意外的是，这使我们的员工人数保持在较低水平，使我们的公司保持盈利，这让你在接下来的 18、24 个月里不必再去寻找资金。
You can just focus on building.
您可以只专注于构建。
Ivan Zhao: And also because your team's small, we have this internal Notion called talent density.
赵伊凡：而且因为你们的团队很小，我们有一个内部概念，叫做人才密度。
We don't try to track number of people but we try to track how talent-dense, revenue per employee we are.
我们不会尝试追踪员工数量，但会尝试追踪人才密度以及每位员工的收入。
And people want to work with either more talented people.
人们希望与更有才华的人一起工作。
So it's a positive company group.
所以这是一个积极的公司集团。
Lenny Rachitsky: I wonder how much of this is actually from being around for so many years without success of, "We just have to stay very lean and save our cash because otherwise, we'll die." Do you think that was a formative experience to inform how you want to operate or is that always something?
莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：我想知道这其中有多少实际上是由于多年来没有成功，“我们必须保持非常精简并节省现金，否则我们就会死掉。”您认为这是一次形成性的经历，可以告诉您想要如何运作，还是总是如此？
Ivan Zhao: No, I wouldn't say we're, Notion, is a cost saving-first company.
赵伊凡：不，我不会说我们 Notion 是一家以节约成本为先的公司。
I like fancy chairs.
我喜欢漂亮的椅子。
I like furniture.
我喜欢家具。
But we're not wasting money.
但我们不会浪费钱。
I think it's more just from a taste or approach to problem solving.
我认为这更多的是来自解决问题的品味或方法。
I just believe better system is much better than brute force through people.
我只是相信更好的系统比通过人的暴力要好得多。
Lenny Rachitsky: When people hear this idea of staying lean and staying small, it sounds great or we're going to be super efficient and lean and smart with our money and down dense.
Lenny Rachitsky：当人们听到保持精简和小型化的想法时，听起来很棒，否则我们将用我们的钱和密集的资金变得超级高效、精简和聪明。
It's very hard to do and it's very hard not to hire more engineers, more designers.
这很难做到，而且很难不雇用更多的工程师、更多的设计师。
What advice do you have for folks that want to operate this way?
对于想要以这种方式进行操作的人，您有什么建议？
What has allowed you to actually be successful while staying lean and not having as many engineers as competitors, many designers as competitors?
是什么让你们在保持精简、工程师数量不如竞争对手、设计师数量不如竞争对手的情况下真正取得了成功？
Ivan Zhao: I think just understand abstraction or system is a better curve than pecan curve, right?
赵伊凡：我认为只了解抽象或系统是比山核桃曲线更好的曲线，对吗？
Linear.
线性。
We internally help other people and understand this.
我们在内部帮助其他人并理解这一点。
Internally we use the metaphor that Notion's a small bus.
在内部，我们使用 Notion 是一辆小巴士的比喻。
The bus, the smaller the bus, it's easier to turn corners, easier to accelerate, easier to maneuver.
公交车，公交车越小，越容易转弯，越容易加速，越容易操纵。
The bigger the bus it is, bigger the boat or bigger the bus, slow down.
公共汽车越大，船越大，或者公共汽车越大，就放慢速度。
And as a leader in the company, you decide who sit around you on the bus seats.
作为公司的领导者，你可以决定公交车座位上谁坐在你周围。
That dictates how fast our overall bus moves, dictate your work and life experience at this company because you pick your roommate, you pick your seat mates.
这决定了我们整个巴士的行驶速度，决定了你在这家公司的工作和生活经历，因为你选择你的室友，你选择你的座位伙伴。
That metaphor clicks with people inside a company and overall help us optimize to make the bus link.
这个比喻很受公司内部人员的欢迎，总体上帮助我们优化公交线路。
Lenny Rachitsky: I've never heard of that metaphor before.
Lenny Rachitsky：我以前从未听说过这个比喻。
Ivan Zhao: It probably came up somewhere but...
赵伊凡：它可能在某个地方出现过，但是......
Or it does not.
或者它没有。
Lenny Rachitsky: Small bus.
Lenny Rachitsky：小型巴士。
So along these lines actually, so I visited the office recently and I noticed that it's just a very cozy vibe.
实际上，沿着这些思路，我最近参观了办公室，我注意到这是一种非常舒适的氛围。
And I learned that you had a rule of no shoes in the office for a long time until the last office, that you all ate around one table for a long time, that you try 30 different shades of warm white on the walls before you chose.
我了解到，你在办公室里有很长一段时间不穿鞋的规定，直到最后一个办公室，你都围着一张桌子吃饭很长一段时间，你在墙壁上尝试了 30 种不同色调的暖白色，然后才做出选择。
Why is that important to you?
为什么这对你很重要？
Why is it so important to be so thoughtful about the office experience?
为什么对办公室体验如此深思熟虑如此重要？
Ivan Zhao: Maybe there are two dimension part of it.
赵伊凡：可能有二维的部分。
One is the pragmatic part.
一是务实部分。
You just want office to be a pleasant experience to be at.
您只是希望办公室成为一种愉快的体验。
Therefore, most office, the top light feels like hospital.
因此，大多数办公室的顶光感觉就像医院一样。
You're just like, "Oh, man." And the white is so pale and the floor is so dark.
你就像，“哦，伙计。”白色是如此苍白，地板又如此黑暗。
Why use some kind of cream, make floors more friendly colors?
为什么要使用某种奶油色，让地板颜色更加友好？
And don't use top light.
并且不要使用顶光。
Top light is evil.
顶光是邪恶的。
So just the office feels cozy so people spend more time.
因此，只要办公室感觉舒适，人们就会花更多的时间。
You feel more creative, more at ease in the office space.So the vision work we have is should feels like artist studio or should feel like your home.
你在办公空间里感觉更有创造力、更自在。所以我们的愿景工作应该感觉像艺术家工作室或者应该感觉像你的家。
And that's why most our office furniture are home furnitures.
这就是为什么我们大多数办公家具都是家用家具。
It just feels cozy.
就是感觉很舒服。
That's more so people spend more time, feels more creative, juices flow better.
更重要的是，人们会花更多的时间，感觉更有创造力，精力更充沛。
Ivan Zhao: The other world just like at least personally for me, it hurts the eyes if you just see ugly things.
赵伊凡：另一个世界至少对我个人来说是这样的，只看到丑陋的东西会伤害眼睛。
It's more from a value aesthetic front.
这更多是从价值审美的角度出发。
It's like we talk about ergonomic chairs.
这就像我们谈论人体工学椅子一样。
Does it hurt your back when you sit on bad chairs?
当你坐在不好的椅子上时，你的背部会受伤吗？
But you have more visual improve from, at least for me from the eyes.
但你有更多的视觉改善，至少对我来说是眼睛。
If the chair looks ugly, the wall looks ugly, it hurts.
如果椅子看起来丑陋，墙壁看起来丑陋，那就很痛苦。
So it's better to not have thing that hurts.
所以最好不要吃那些会造成伤害的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: You also have a really interesting naming convention for your conference rooms.
Lenny Rachitsky：你们的会议室还有一个非常有趣的命名约定。
Ivan Zhao: Yeah, that's true.
赵伊凡：是的，确实如此。
Yeah.
是的。
We name our conference room after timeless tools in history.
我们以历史上永恒的工具命名我们的会议室。
So there, I'll give you an example.
那么，我给你举个例子。
iPhone's obvious one, original Macintosh, various different form of chairs, Lamy's 2000 pens, Toshiba rice cookers, and other ones because they're inspirations.
iPhone 是最明显的，第一代 Macintosh、各种不同形式的椅子、Lamy's 2000 钢笔、东芝电饭锅和其他东西，因为它们是灵感。
They're just like at the end of the day, we're creating a tool.
他们就像在一天结束时，我们正在创建一个工具。
We're creating a meta tool.
我们正在创建一个元工具。
A lot of people to create tools, software tools.
很多人创造工具、软件工具。
And Toshiba rice cooker changed how people eat rice in Asia for a hundred million, tens of a hundred million people.
东芝电饭锅改变了亚洲一亿、几千万人吃米饭的方式。
The Sony transistor radio is the first one to shrink something small and useful for people.
索尼晶体管收音机是第一款将一些东西缩小到对人们有用的产品。
And those things change people's life and last for decades.
这些东西改变了人们的生活并持续了几十年。
What it's like to create a software product like that?
创建这样的软件产品是什么感觉？
I want to inspire my team to think that way.
我想激励我的团队以这种方式思考。
Because software, and especially tech, it's every six months, every 12 months cycle.
因为软件，尤其是技术，每六个月、每 12 个月为一个周期。
We don't think enough about creating something that lasts.
我们对于创造持久的东西思考得不够。
I care creating something that at least the form factor lasts longer than 18 month.
我关心的是创造出至少外形能持续超过 18 个月的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a quote that you tweeted once that I think of as you talk about this from Steve Jobs.
Lenny Rachitsky：当你谈论史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）的这个问题时，我想起了你在推特上发过的一句话。
"The problem is that there's just a tremendous amount of craftsmanship between a great idea and a great product." I don't know if you remember tweeting that, but just what do you think of when you hear that?
“问题在于，一个伟大的想法和一个伟大的产品之间存在着大量的工艺。”我不知道你是否记得发过这样的推文，但当你听到这句话时你会想到什么？
Ivan Zhao: Yeah, I think the key word here is craft.
赵伊凡：是的，我认为这里的关键词是工艺。
Internally, our company philosophy called crafts and values.
在内部，我们的公司理念称为工艺和价值观。
Craft is your skill set, your taste.
工艺是你的技能、你的品味。
Value is your personal value and how do you see the world.
价值是你的个人价值以及你如何看待世界。
Craft is interesting word.
工艺是一个有趣的词。
It's like about apply your value to some technical know-how and to make more clever trade-offs to create something new and useful and just keep doing that.
这就像将你的价值应用到一些技术知识上，并做出更聪明的权衡来创造一些新的、有用的东西，然后继续这样做。
Ivan Zhao: My wife often refer me as a wood cabinet builder.
赵伊凡：我的妻子经常称我为木柜制造商。
That's how at least my mindset training towards building Notion is like, "Oh, can I make this wood cabinet more beautiful and more useful and feels nicer on your hand?" And that's like you have aesthetic direction towards it and you have your technical know-how to actually make things happen.
至少我对构建 Notion 的思维训练是这样的，“哦，我可以让这个木柜更漂亮、更有用，并且手感更好吗？”这就像你有审美方向，并且你有技术知识来真正实现事情。
Then you need to do permutation and trade-off in your head where on paper and to get there.
然后你需要在头脑中在纸上进行排列和权衡，然后才能到达目的地。
That to me, that's craft.
对我来说，这就是手艺。
And building product, to me at least, to me feels that way.
至少对我来说，构建产品就是这样的感觉。
Building business feels that way.
开展业务就是这种感觉。
Building company feels that way.
建立公司就是这种感觉。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting that so much of this conversation is this and the way you think about building this company is this balance between practical, useful things people need and business and practical stuff, and then the value of building something you're proud of and craft.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，这次谈话的大部分内容都是这样的，你考虑建立这家公司的方式是人们需要的实用的、有用的东西与商业和实用的东西之间的平衡，然后是建立你引以为豪和制作的东西的价值。
And there's always this trade-off almost of speed and quality, and I know that's an important element for you.
速度和质量总是需要权衡，我知道这对您来说是一个重要因素。
Just thinking about trade-offs between decisions, so talk about just trade-offs, just how you think about making a trade-off.
只是考虑决策之间的权衡，所以只谈论权衡，只是谈论你如何考虑做出权衡。
Ivan Zhao: Yeah, I think this is quite relevant especially for product makers and business makers is there's no free lunch.
赵伊凡：是的，我认为这对于产品制造商和商业制造商来说非常重要，因为天下没有免费的午餐。
You don't get something for free.
你不会免费得到一些东西。
You have to give up something.
你必须放弃一些东西。
Then what do you give up?
那你放弃什么呢？
It's essentially you give up the right thing that market or your user wants at that given space and time.
本质上，你放弃了市场或用户在给定的空间和时间想要的正确的东西。
It's just the craft of building a business or building a product.
这只是建立企业或构建产品的技巧。
And that the market is so dynamic, especially now with AI.
而且市场是如此充满活力，尤其是现在有了人工智能。
The optimized function for the market changes so then you need to make new trade-off and new technology emerges.
针对市场的优化功能发生了变化，所以你需要做出新的权衡，新技术就会出现。
I always feels like AI language model feels like a new type of wood.
我总觉得AI语言模型就像一种新型的木头。
It feels like aluminum.
感觉像铝。
It's a new type of material.
它是一种新型材料。
So you can make...
所以你可以让...
Mass air travel wasn't available until aluminum become cheap enough that people can make airplanes that support this at cost.
直到铝变得足够便宜以至于人们可以以成本制造支持铝的飞机时，大规模航空旅行才得以实现。
And it's like computer wasn't there until semiconductor becomes...
这就像计算机不存在直到半导体成为......
It's like require new technology to unlock new way to making trade-offs, and then you need to balance the technology trade-off with human behavior trade-off.
这就像需要新技术来解锁新的权衡方式，然后你需要平衡技术权衡和人类行为权衡。
Ivan Zhao: As a human, ever since we got out of Africa, we're set, right?
赵立坚：作为一个人，自从我们走出非洲，我们就已经确定了，对吧？
That's a constraint.
这是一个限制。
It's invariable.
这是不变的。
And every generation pick up some new things but after you're 16 years old you don't want to learn new things.
每一代人都会接受一些新事物，但 16 岁之后你就不想学习新事物了。
So those are there are the people trade-off, technology trade-off.
所以这些就是人员权衡、技术权衡。
There's some macro.
有一些宏。
There's a different dimension of things just cooking together that come together as a product more as a business than what is that?
一起烹饪的事物有一个不同的维度，它们作为一种产品组合在一起，更像是一种业务，而不是那是什么？
And I think a product maker, business maker's job is to find that sweet spot of all the multiple dimensions, then create something has a right to exist.
我认为产品制造商、业务制造商的工作是找到所有多个维度的最佳点，然后创造出有权存在的东西。
At least it's more durable to exist.
至少它的存在更加持久。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I'm hearing there's this thread of just like with new technologies, what is now possible.
Lenny Rachitsky：我听说新技术就像现在一样，现在是可能的。
And I know you guys are doing some cool stuff with AI that I'm going to get to that is unlocking some cool new ideas.
我知道你们正在利用人工智能做一些很酷的事情，我将要解锁一些很酷的新想法。
But before I get there, I want to talk about just you as a leader.
但在我到达那里之前，我想谈谈您作为领导者的情况。
At this point, you've been at this for 12 years, something like that.
到现在为止，你已经从事这一行12年了，差不多就是这样。
Lenny Rachitsky: And if you don't mind me saying, you're a soft-spoken leader, which is you're not like the archetype of what people imagine is like the CEO of a 10 billion...
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你不介意我说的话，你是一位说话温和的领导者，也就是说，你不像人们想象的 100 亿企业首席执行官的原型......
And I'm sure you guys are valued much more now.
我确信你们现在更受重视。
I don't even know.
我什至不知道。
That was probably an old valuation.
这可能是一个旧的估值。
I think it's great for people to see leaders like you that are not necessarily the classic archetype of CO, and I imagine there are things you've had to work on and build and lean into that aren't natural to you to step into this role of this increasingly growing, high-scale business.
我认为人们很高兴看到像您这样的领导者不一定是 CO 的经典原型，而且我想您必须努力、建立和依靠一些事情，而这些事情对您来说是不自然的，以进入这个日益增长的高规模企业的这一角色。
What are some of the areas you've had to most build and learn to do that didn't come naturally to you?
有哪些领域是你最需要构建和学习的，但对你来说并不是很自然？
Ivan Zhao: I guess you've never been in a business meeting or brainstorm session with me.
赵伊章：我想你从来没有和我参加过商务会议或头脑风暴会议。
You're not there.
你不在那儿。
Lenny Rachitsky: Haven't seen that side of Ivan Zhao.
Lenny Rachitsky：还没有看到赵伊章的那一面。
Ivan Zhao: Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm the most soft interaction person at work.
赵伊凡：是的，我不会说我是工作中互动最柔和的人。
It's actually the reverse is true because I grew up in China.
事实上恰恰相反，因为我在中国长大。
People way more direct.
人们更加直接。
People just say what they want, say what they think.
人们只是说他们想说的话，说他们的想法。
And you move to California, you move to US, you move to the West, you felt wow, everybody says everything's wonderful, everything's nice, but that's not true.
当你搬到加利福尼亚，搬到美国，搬到西方，你感觉哇，每个人都说一切都很棒，一切都很好，但事实并非如此。
I would say Notion's ethos probably more like a East Coast rather than West Coast, so somewhere in between.
我想说 Notion 的精神可能更像东海岸而不是西海岸，所以介于两者之间。
It's more direct.
这样更直接。
Ivan Zhao: What do you want to learn?
赵伊凡：你想学什么？
A bunch of things.
一堆东西。
I think the early days is we talk about that the world's not like you.
我认为早期我们谈论的是这个世界不像你。
The world don't care about you so you have to shave off the idealistic part of you to go something that's like the world actually cares, the sugar coat of broccoli.
世界并不关心你，所以你必须削掉自己理想主义的部分，去做一些世界真正关心的事情，即西兰花的糖衣。
You have to hide the broccoli within something, the sugar pills.
你必须把西兰花藏在糖丸里。
So that's one.
这就是其中之一。
That's more self.
那就更自我了。
That's more myself.
这更属于我自己了。
Ivan Zhao: As company grows, you realize...
赵伊凡：随着公司的发展，你会意识到……
I'm pretty good at storytelling.
我很擅长讲故事。
So that's a one-to-one influence.
所以这是一对一的影响。
But as a company grows, you realize you need to be one-to-many storytellers.
但随着公司的发展，您意识到自己需要成为一对多的讲故事者。
That's a skill.
这是一项技能。
The one reason I try not to do podcasts and all those things, oh, it's actually it drains energy in a different ways.
我尽量不做播客和所有这些事情的一个原因，哦，实际上它以不同的方式消耗能量。
I prefer just building product and brainstorm sessions.
我更喜欢只构建产品和头脑风暴会议。
Then you realize it's a necessary craft for me to pick up in order to change the shape of the company, the business I'm building.
然后你就会意识到，为了改变我正在建立的公司和业务的形态，这对我来说是一项必要的技能。
I treat it like a craft.
我把它当作一种工艺品。
There's some things skill that's in the video game.
视频游戏中有一些技巧。
You need to pick up something to unlock something else and to make new demand, you trade off with yourself and the business.
你需要拿起一些东西来解锁其他东西并提出新的需求，你需要在自己和企业之间进行权衡。
That's fun though.
不过这很有趣。
Every 12, 18 month, Notion's like a new company or at least they require different skill set coming from me.
每 12、18 个月，Notion 就像一家新公司，或者至少他们需要我提供不同的技能。
So I need to pick up new things.
所以我需要接受新的东西。
And it's an infinite game and infinite games are more fun.
这是一个无限的游戏，无限的游戏更有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this idea.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个主意。
I love that you keep coming back to this idea of there's the ideals and the values and the vision and what you're trying to do, and then you have to find the way to frame it and package it so that people actually understand and want it.
我喜欢你不断地回到这个想法，即有理想、价值观、愿景以及你想要做的事情，然后你必须找到框架和包装它的方法，以便人们真正理解并想要它。
And that's how you get in.
这就是你进入的方式。
Ivan Zhao: Yeah.
赵伊凡：是的。
It's like human minds are resistant to change, and how do you land in people's head?
就像人类的思想抵制改变一样，你如何登陆人们的头脑呢？
Through my best word marketing and positioning are for.
用我最好的话说，营销和定位是为了。
So you need to find the sweet spot to get in.
所以你需要找到进入的最佳点。
And you also be truthful.
而且你也要诚实。
It's not just deceiving.
这不仅仅是欺骗。
So deceiving is not truthful.
所以欺骗并不等于真实。
You can fool other people once or twice, then there's no future.
你能骗别人一两次，那就没有未来了。
It has to be actually tied back to something genuinely the value creating or the exchange with the other person.
它必须实际上与真正创造价值或与他人交换的事物联系在一起。
So yeah, it's a craft.
所以是的，这是一门手艺。
Storytelling is the vast dimension of making trade-offs.
讲故事是一个巨大的权衡维度。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this word, trade-offs.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个词，权衡。
Comes up again and again too.
也一次又一次地出现。
It's so interesting that there's these threads that have come up again and again in our chat.
非常有趣的是，这些话题在我们的聊天中一次又一次地出现。
Along that journey of becoming this leader that you've become, what would you say has maybe the biggest surprise or most unexpected part of the journey of something you've had to learn to do or something that didn't turn out the way you expected?
在你成为领导者的过程中，你认为什么可能是你必须学会做的事情或没有达到你预期的结果的旅程中最大的惊喜或最意想不到的部分？
Just as a personal growth story.
就像个人的成长故事一样。
Ivan Zhao: If you use the product in the past three years, you realize Notion product, you realize, "Hey, we actually ship bunch of things not so great." Two years ago.
赵伊凡：如果你在过去三年中使用该产品，你会意识到 Notion 产品，你会意识到，“嘿，我们实际上发布了一堆不太好的东西。”两年前。
Actually last year, 2024, is the year that I can say we ship good stuff at good velocity and good quality and align with our values.
事实上，去年，即 2024 年，我可以说我们以良好的速度、良好的质量交付了好东西，并符合我们的价值观。
We get lost there for a year, a year and a half shipping something not according to our value, not according to my value.
我们在那里迷失了一年，一年半，运送的东西不符合我们的价值，不符合我的价值。
Notion, we call Notion is Lego for software.
Notion，我们称之为Notion，是软件的乐高。
We ship non-Lego pieces into our product.
我们将非乐高部件运送到我们的产品中。
We're still there.
我们还在那里。
We're still cleaning up part of it.
我们仍在清理其中的一部分。
That's a realization.
这是一种认识。
It's like going back to the value part, it's like if you create this thing called a product or business, you attract people are value aligned to it.
这就像回到价值部分，就像如果你创造了一种称为产品或业务的东西，你会吸引与其价值一致的人们。
Then if you're trying to optimize too much on this competition revenue side of things, forced to introducing something anti-your-value, then the system, it's like there's organ rejection with your employees, with your customers.
然后，如果你试图在竞争收入方面进行太多优化，被迫引入一些违背你价值的东西，那么这个系统就像你的员工和客户之间存在器官排斥一样。
Ivan Zhao: I'll give you a concrete example.
赵立坚：我举一个具体的例子。
For a while and still is, project management is one of the most important use cases for Notion.
一段时间以来，项目管理一直是 Notion 最重要的用例之一。
And you can get a better project management tool just by hard coding things like sprints, milestones, all those things into your product, or you can do it in the way the Notion are being, through Lego pieces.
你可以通过将诸如冲刺、里程碑之类的东西硬编码到你的产品中来获得更好的项目管理工具，或者你也可以通过乐高积木以概念的方式来做到这一点。
What are the sprint?
冲刺有哪些？
Sprints are clusters of a task that group together.
Sprint 是组合在一起的任务集群。
So it's a new Lego.
所以这是一个新的乐高。
So introducing Lego is much harder, slower.
所以引入乐高要困难得多，速度也慢得多。
You can instead we hard-code a sprint concept into the product.
相反，您可以将冲刺概念硬编码到产品中。
And this doesn't quite fit.
而这不太合适。
And took me at least a year, a year and a half to realize that's not the way we should continue building Notion.
我花了至少一年、一年半的时间才意识到这不是我们继续构建 Notion 的方式。
We should go back the original Lego way of building the product.
我们应该回到乐高最初的产品构建方式。
So we changed quite a bit internally.
所以我们内部做了很大的改变。
Now, it feels good now.
现在，现在感觉很好。
Building according to your values is the meta point, at least for me.
根据你的价值观进行构建是元点，至少对我来说是这样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I got to follow this thread.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我必须关注这个话题。
What is it that you changed that allowed you to come back to your first principles?
是什么让你改变了，让你回到了最初的原则？
Was it like you step...
是不是就像你踩...
Is it founder mode was the answer?
创始人模式就是答案吗？
Is it people, personnel shift?
是人员、人事变动吗？
What allowed you to change the way things were going?
是什么让你改变了事情的发展方式？
Ivan Zhao: I would say all of that above, but especially just release the sprint product through our community and customers.
Ivan Zhao：我想说的是上面的所有内容，但特别是通过我们的社区和客户发布 sprint 产品。
Then it's like what is this?
然后就好像这是什么？
It's like underpowered compared to other competitor products to doing product management and it doesn't work well with the rest of Notion like I said.
与其他竞争对手的产品相比，它在进行产品管理方面动力不足，而且正如我所说，它与 Notion 的其他部分不能很好地配合。
And if you talk with engineers, they'll say, "Okay, there's this part of Notion you have to touch the code base.
如果你和工程师交谈，他们会说，“好吧，Notion 的这一部分你必须接触代码库。
That's just weird.
这太奇怪了。
That's your hardcore too much into it.
那是你的铁杆太过投入了。
From all the dimension technical front, calling a customer.
从各个维度的技术前沿，呼叫客户。
And when you use the thing it just doesn't feel right." So there's another saying that if you build in a Lego way inside Notion in the code base or product, the system work for you.
当你使用这个东西时，你会感觉不太对劲。”所以还有另一种说法，如果你在代码库或产品的 Notion 中以乐高方式构建，那么系统就会为你工作。
If you're building non-Lego way, the system work against you.
如果您以非乐高方式构建，系统就会对您不利。
So in some sense, we're creating a tool that has emergent behavior, inter-channeling that emergent behavior to unlock more values.
因此，从某种意义上说，我们正在创建一个具有紧急行为的工具，通过相互引导紧急行为来释放更多价值。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I'm hearing as you launched it, it just didn't go well.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听说当你推出它时，进展并不顺利。
Everyone's just like, "What is this?
每个人都会说：“这是什么？
This isn't feeling good." And there's a moment of realization of I see.
这感觉不太好。”我明白了。
Here's what we did wrong here and we should come back to this original abstraction vision of what we're trying to build.
这就是我们在这里做错的地方，我们应该回到我们正在尝试构建的原始抽象愿景。
Ivan Zhao: That took nine months, a year to realize sometime.
赵伊凡：这花了九个月甚至一年的时间才实现。
Lenny Rachitsky: Along those lines actually, people come on this podcast and they share all these stories of things are going awesome all the time.
Lenny Rachitsky：实际上，沿着这些思路，人们来到这个播客，他们分享所有这些事情一直都很棒的故事。
And this was a great example of it didn't.
这是一个很好的例子，证明事实并非如此。
I'm curious if there's another story of let's say a crisis that you all went through when things were looking pretty bleak for Notion along the journey of building Notion.
我很好奇是否还有另一个故事，比如说你们都经历过一场危机，当时在构建 Notion 的过程中，Notion 的情况看起来相当黯淡。
Ivan Zhao: Yeah, one of the bleakest one, it's when we...
赵伊凡：是的，最悲惨的时刻之一，就是我们...
During COVID, we just couldn't scale up our infrastructure.
在新冠疫情期间，我们无法扩大我们的基础设施规模。
For the longest time, Simon's really good at don't do premature optimization, so for the longest time, we Notion runs on one instance of Postgres database.
在最长的时间里，Simon 确实擅长不做过早的优化，因此在最长的时间里，我们的 Notion 运行在 Postgres 数据库的一个实例上。
And then we find the beefiest machine.
然后我们找到最强大的机器。
We keep scrolling, find a beefier future machine to scale our user base, but then we're running off even the largest instance there is for Postgres.
我们不断滚动，寻找更强大的未来机器来扩展我们的用户群，但随后我们甚至耗尽了 Postgres 最大的实例。
So there's a doomsday clock that when we're going to truly run out of this space to store everything in Notion and Notion got a complete shutdown.
因此，存在一个末日时钟，当我们真正耗尽 Notion 中存储所有内容的空间时，Notion 就会完全关闭。
So we stopped building any new features, all hands on deck, almost every engineer in the company trying to solve that problem.
因此，我们停止构建任何新功能，所有人都齐心协力，几乎公司的每个工程师都试图解决这个问题。
Eventually we did, but it was a close call.
最终我们做到了，但这是一次千钧一发的机会。
Lenny Rachitsky: How close are we talking about?
Lenny Rachitsky：我们谈论的距离有多近？
Ivan Zhao: If I recall correctly, probably in weeks running out of the time.
赵立坚：如果我没记错的话，大概就剩几周的时间了。
And then as you approach the limit of what Postgres can do, behavior becomes sporadic.
然后当你接近 Postgres 的极限时，行为就会变得零星。
You really don't know which day going to hit you.
你真的不知道哪一天会降临到你身上。
But we just need to go as fast as you can to become sharding problem.
但我们只需要尽可能快地解决分片问题即可。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I was going to ask, so the solution is sharding the database?
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我想问，所以解决方案是对数据库进行分片？
Ivan Zhao: Don't do as late.
赵伊凡：别那么晚了。
Yes.
是的。
Don't do premature optimization but plan ahead a little bit.
不要过早进行优化，而是提前计划一下。
Don't go late.
别迟到了。
Lenny Rachitsky: How long did you have from when you launched this doomsday clock to time running out?
Lenny Rachitsky：从你推出这个末日时钟到时间耗尽，你用了多长时间？
Was that a few months?
那是几个月吗？
Ivan Zhao: Maybe a bit longer.
赵伊凡：可能会长一点。
Yeah, in the month, less than six but more than three, something like that.
是的，一个月内，少于六个但多于三个，类似的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: The bittersweetness of COVID just ramping up certain businesses.
Lenny Rachitsky：新冠疫情的苦乐参半只是促进了某些业务的发展。
Ivan Zhao: People just run like they have to use online productivity software, collaboration tools.
赵伊凡：人们就像必须使用在线生产力软件、协作工具一样跑步。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, blessing and a curse.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，祝福和诅咒。
Speaking of a blessing and curse, this is a great segue to where I wanted to go in the final area I want to spend time on which is building horizontal software and building software that bundles together a bunch of different stuff.
说到祝福和诅咒，这是我想要花时间去构建水平软件和构建将一堆不同东西捆绑在一起的软件的最后一个领域的一个很好的延续。
Notoriously hard to build a horizontal platform that does a lot of things when there are often point solutions that are very, very good at that one thing.
众所周知，建立一个可以做很多事情的水平平台是非常困难的，因为通常有非常非常擅长某一件事的单点解决方案。
And it's interesting.
这很有趣。
If you look at the timelines of companies that have built horizontal products, they all take a long time to build and finally find product market fits.
如果你看看那些已经建立了横向产品的公司的时间表，他们都需要很长时间来建立并最终找到适合市场的产品。
It's actually a really common pattern.
这实际上是一种非常常见的模式。
And when we were talking about what would be fun to talk about, the way you described it is the joy and pain of building horizontal products.
当我们谈论什么是有趣的事情时，你所描述的就是构建横向产品的快乐和痛苦。
So let me just ask broadly just what have you learned about what it takes to successfully build a horizontal platform type of product?
因此，让我广泛地问一下，对于成功构建水平平台类型的产品需要什么，您了解了什么？
Ivan Zhao: First of all, no regret.
赵立坚：首先，不后悔。
And second, I wouldn't want to build anything else because going back to the value, Lego for software doesn't exist and Lego is a horizontal thing.
其次，我不想建造任何其他东西，因为回到价值，乐高软件不存在，乐高是一个横向的东西。
So that's the thing we want to build.
这就是我们想要构建的东西。
We always want to do that.
我们一直想这样做。
So we did not start to optimize for business but we're optimized for that vision.
因此，我们并没有开始针对业务进行优化，而是针对该愿景进行了优化。
Ivan Zhao: Learning-wise, I think segmentation is quite important because people can use a Lego for different things.
赵伊凡：在学习方面，我认为细分非常重要，因为人们可以使用乐高来做不同的事情。
Only hardcore Lego fans care about Lego bricks.
只有铁杆乐高迷才会关心乐高积木。
Most people care about Lego boxes.
大多数人关心乐高盒子。
And they actually want the Lego box to be ready-made.
他们实际上希望乐高盒子是现成的。
When you unpack the box, the set is there for you, right?
当你打开包装盒时，套装就在你身边，对吗？
That's what we're learning a lot, especially move up market.
这就是我们学到的很多东西，尤其是进入高端市场。
There's this term that took me a while to learn.
有一个词我花了一段时间才学会。
It's called solutions.
这就是所谓的解决方案。
You need to be a solution for enterprise customer, you need to sit somewhere on a P&L to optimize for their business where due third risk.
您需要成为企业客户的解决方案，您需要坐在损益表的某个位置来优化他们的业务，其中存在第三种风险。
That's Lego box.
那是乐高盒子。
It's not a Lego brick.
这不是乐高积木。
Segmentation related to that.
与此相关的细分。
So you need to shift your mindset as you more towards B2B, more towards move out market.
因此，当你更多地转向 B2B、更多地走出市场时，你需要转变你的思维方式。
I wish we have done earlier.
我希望我们早点做。
For the longest time, I've stalled too much in the Lego brick mindset, now in the solution Lego box mindset.
很长一段时间以来，我在乐高积木思维模式中停滞了太多，现在又陷入了解决方案乐高盒子思维模式。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a good metaphor.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的比喻。
I feel like even if you're not building Legos for business, just this idea of what is the box that you are selling to people, how's it being positioned?
我觉得即使你不是为了商业而建造乐高积木，只是想知道你卖给人们的盒子是什么，它是如何定位的？
How do you picture it?
你怎么看？
What are the value?
有哪些价值？
Props such a good metaphor.
道具真是一个很好的比喻。
Ivan Zhao: If you're building vertical software and naturally your vertical is the box, right?
赵伊凡：如果你正在构建垂直软件，那么你的垂直领域自然就是盒子，对吧？
So you know you have 1 or 2% of your selling to.
所以你知道你有 1% 或 2% 的销售对象。
Pretty straightforward that your market constrains you and no judgment.
很简单，你的市场限制你，没有判断力。
People like you, you can go that way, but then you just hit the wall off the market.
像你这样的人，你可以走那条路，但你就会在市场上碰壁。
The advantage of building horizontal, there's no wall, at least for in our space.
水平建筑的优点是没有墙壁，至少在我们的空间中是这样。
We, Notion, go after entire software market, but then you need to create a wall yourself.
我们，Notion，追求整个软件市场，但你需要自己建造一堵墙。
So to make your go-to-market distribution, to create the spot in people's mind, your customer's mind more clearly for them and for your go-to-market teams.
因此，为了让您的市场推广分销，在人们的心目中创造一席之地，让您的客户和您的市场推广团队更清楚地了解他们的想法。
That's why where solutions is one of my favorite word internally to rally the sales team or the product team.
这就是为什么“解决方案”是我在内部最喜欢用来团结销售团队或产品团队的词之一。
You think that way, but then you need to hold in your head, make sure you're still building bricks behind the scene.
你是这么想的，但你需要保持头脑清醒，确保你仍在幕后砌砖。
Otherwise, you pigeonhole yourself into the best spot, like what we did with project management sprints features.
否则，您会将自己归入最佳位置，就像我们在项目管理冲刺功能中所做的那样。
Lenny Rachitsky: So speaking of that, so I don't know if you know this.
Lenny Rachitsky：说到这一点，我不知道你是否知道这一点。
I ran a survey recently where I asked my readers what tools they use most, what tools they love most.
我最近进行了一项调查，询问我的读者他们最常使用什么工具，他们最喜欢什么工具。
And it went out to my entire subscriber base.
它传给了我的整个订阅者群。
We've got 6,500 people filling out the survey.
我们有 6,500 人填写了调查。
And Notion more than any other company placed very highly in many categories.
Notion 在许多类别中的排名都比任何其他公司都高。
For example, I have the notes here, it was the second most popular project management tool after Jira.
例如，我这里有笔记，它是继 Jira 之后第二受欢迎的项目管理工具。
It was the fourth most popular docs.
这是第四大最受欢迎的文档。
Which is interesting because you think Notion would...
这很有趣，因为你认为 Notion 会......
Notion is known for docs and it's interesting, that was the lowest one actually.
Notion 以文档而闻名，有趣的是，这实际上是最低的文档。
And then it was third in CRM, just behind Salesforce and HubSpot.
然后它在 CRM 领域排名第三，仅次于 Salesforce 和 HubSpot。
Ivan Zhao: Yeah, we did not intend to build CRM, but what is a CRM is relational database.
赵立坚：是的，我们本来不想做CRM，但什么是CRM，就是关系型数据库。
That's why we give people that brick.
这就是为什么我们给人们那块砖。
That's a relational database and they can build CRM themselves.
那是一个关系数据库，他们可以自己构建 CRM。
I think the good advantage is if a customer use Notion, they can address those three, four use cases in one place.
我认为一个很好的优势是，如果客户使用 Notion，他们可以在一个地方解决这三个、四个用例。
Especially for our startup mid-market companies, their need for each of the vertical use case is not as complex so they can have all the information in one place, good for their teams, good for AI actually.
特别是对于我们的初创中端市场公司来说，他们对每个垂直用例的需求并不复杂，因此他们可以将所有信息集中在一个地方，这对他们的团队有利，实际上对人工智能有利。
That's a huge market change that's like we did not expect until recently.
这是一个巨大的市场变化，这是我们直到最近才预料到的。
And save their costs, which is more and more people care about the bundling purchase nowadays.
并且节省他们的成本，这是现在越来越多的人关心的捆绑购买。
And our approach for that is, yes, we're number two in project management, number what?
我们的方法是，是的，我们在项目管理方面排名第二，排名是什么？
Number four in CRM, but we're interested in more bricks to make us number...
在 CRM 领域排名第四，但我们感兴趣的是更多的砖块来让我们排名第一......
Move up the categories in ranking.
提升类别的排名。
So it just takes time, but that's our approach.
所以这只是需要时间，但这就是我们的方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Well, it's working whatever you're doing there.
嗯，无论你在那里做什么，它都会起作用。
So say someone is trying to build a horizontal tool like yours.
假设有人正在尝试构建像您这样的水平工具。
There's a lot of founders that are trying to build something that can do a lot of things really well.
有很多创始人正在尝试打造一些能够真正做好很多事情的东西。
Do you have any advice for that first use case?
您对第一个用例有什么建议吗？
Just figuring out something that initially works like you're talking about segmentation, is there something there of like, "Do this if you want to find any success with a horizontal tool"?
只是弄清楚最初的工作原理就像您在谈论细分一样，是否有类似“如果您想使用水平工具取得成功就这样做”之类的内容？
Ivan Zhao: First, I wouldn't recommend it.
赵伊凡：首先，我不会推荐它。
Lenny Rachitsky: But you wouldn't do it differently?
Lenny Rachitsky：但你不会采取不同的做法吗？
Ivan Zhao: I wouldn't do it differently myself, but I wouldn't recommend it.
赵伊凡：我自己不会采取不同的做法，但我不会推荐它。
It's a problem.
这是一个问题。
The problem space too large to have best practice, but I can share something that's relevant for us.
问题空间太大，无法实现最佳实践，但我可以分享一些与我们相关的内容。
Notion, we always want to build a meta tool, a tool to build the lack of our software.
概念上，我们总是想构建一个元工具，一个构建我们所缺乏的软件的工具。
We somehow stand up upon document notes as one use case.
我们以某种方式将文档注释作为一种用例。
And that just gave us a large top of the funnel that there's a 1 billion plus people use this use case every day.
这让我们了解到每天有超过 10 亿人使用这个用例。
So that fuels our growth.
这推动了我们的成长。
We call our internal strategy called B2C2B.
我们将我们的内部策略称为 B2C2B。
All those consumers, personal user use Notion for the most simple way you can use a computer or your phone, which is note-taking or document-sharing.
所有这些消费者、个人用户都以使用计算机或手机最简单的方式使用 Notion，即记笔记或文档共享。
And then they realize, "Oh, Notion can do more of that." There's relational database power, you can do tasks, you can manage track other things.
然后他们意识到，“哦，Notion 可以做得更多。”有关系数据库的力量，你可以执行任务，你可以管理跟踪其他事情。
Then they bring Notion to work.
然后他们将 Notion 投入工作。
Ivan Zhao: Half our B2B customers coming from prior personal users, and most of them are using Notion for notes and talk in the first place.
赵伊凡：我们的 B2B 客户有一半来自以前的个人用户，他们中的大多数人首先使用 Notion 进行笔记和交谈。
So pick.
所以选。
Well, at least we stumble upon a use case, a horizontal use case to give us a large top of funnel that help us grow our more verticalized enterprise use cases, and that's the reason where we ship a calendar product last year because which other category of software has 1 billion plus users?
好吧，至少我们偶然发现了一个用例，一个水平用例，为我们提供了一个大的漏斗顶部，帮助我们发展更垂直的企业用例，这就是我们去年推出日历产品的原因，因为还有哪一类软件拥有超过 10 亿用户？
There's document notes, there's calendar, there's email, right?
有文档笔记、日历、电子邮件，对吧？
That's why we're also working on the email product right now.
这就是为什么我们现在也在开发电子邮件产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, man.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，伙计。
Watch out, everyone.
大家要小心。
And then you mentioned AI and it's such a good point that AI is best when it has data.
然后你提到了人工智能，这是一个很好的观点，人工智能在拥有数据时是最好的。
And the fact that you have all of this stuff already in there gives you a lot of really interesting opportunities to leverage AI.
事实上，你已经拥有了所有这些东西，这为你提供了很多利用人工智能的非常有趣的机会。
Ivan Zhao: We definitely did not expect language model.
赵立坚：我们绝对没有想到语言模型。
It's such a gift for everybody building tools, right?
这对于每个构建工具的人来说都是一份礼物，对吧？
Complete change the material you can work with.
彻底改变您可以使用的材料。
One realization, it's you have a surface area that people spend daily work with, especially during writing and managing your tasks and project.
一种认识是，您拥有人们日常工作的表面积，尤其是在编写和管理您的任务和项目期间。
It's really easy to slice the language model writing AI capability into it.
将编写 AI 功能的语言模型切入其中确实很容易。
So that's the first part we built.
这就是我们构建的第一部分。
That realization is AI is so good at reasoning and understanding and searching things, and we can do a much better job of finding and searching things if all the information are together.
人们认识到人工智能非常擅长推理、理解和搜索事物，如果所有信息都集中在一起，我们可以更好地查找和搜索事物。
That's what we realized.
这就是我们意识到的。
AI is really good with bundled offerings.
人工智能在捆绑产品方面确实非常出色。
AI is really good with horizontal tools.
人工智能非常擅长使用横向工具。
So that's the second phase, we call it.
这就是我们所说的第二阶段。
The first product was our AI writer product.
第一个产品是我们的人工智能作家产品。
Second product is AI Q&A or connectors.
第二个产品是人工智能问答或连接器。
Please look at all the information in Notion and give your answer.
请查看Notion中的所有信息并给出你的答案。
Ivan Zhao: And then we also need to work with the external connector because there's things that are living in Jira, living in Zendesk that other customers still rely on.
Ivan Zhao：然后我们还需要使用外部连接器，因为其他客户仍然依赖 Jira 和 Zendesk 中的一些东西。
So we need to build AI connectors.
所以我们需要构建AI连接器。
But more and more information coming back to the Notion core.
但越来越多的信息回到了 Notion 核心。
I would say the third one, which is even more fascinating, it's for the longest time and it's still is one of the biggest weaknesses of building for Legos, it's hard to piece together.
我想说的是第三个，它更令人着迷，它存在的时间最长，而且仍然是乐高积木的最大弱点之一，它很难拼凑在一起。
It's not everybody can put together a Lego set from scratch.
并不是每个人都能从头开始组装乐高套装。
There's always the builders and user with the Legos.
乐高积木的建造者和使用者总是存在的。
But guess who is really good at piecing things together, assemble things?
但猜猜谁真正擅长将事物拼凑、组装？
Especially things like since Sona 3.5.
尤其是从 Sona 3.5 开始。
AI is so bad at writing code.
AI 不擅长编写代码。
Coding is just assembling things together.
编码只是将事物组装在一起。
So now we're looking at holy shit, we spent the last five, six year building all those Lego blocks for knowledge work.
所以现在我们正在考虑天哪，我们花了过去五六年的时间建造所有这些乐高积木用于知识工作。
If we're just putting AI coding agent on top of it, you can create any kind of knowledge, customer software, customer agent for whatever your vertical use cases you need.
如果我们只是在其之上放置人工智能编码代理，您就可以为您需要的任何垂直用例创建任何类型的知识、客户软件、客户代理。
So that's the most fascinating approach for me, and we did not expect this at all.
所以这对我来说是最令人着迷的方法，我们根本没想到会这样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you, AI.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢谢你，人工智能。
Is there anything else along the lines of building horizontal products and bundling that you think is interesting to share or important?
在构建横向产品和捆绑方面，还有什么您认为值得分享或重要的事情吗？
Otherwise, I have one last question I want to ask you.
否则，我还有最后一个问题想问你。
Ivan Zhao: I think market is like waves.
赵伊凡：我认为市场就像波浪一样。
There's...
有...
Who said this?
这句话是谁说的？
There's two-way to build business, bundling and bundling, right?
建立业务有两种方式，捆绑和捆绑，对吧？
There's too much of a zig and the zag.
有太多的曲折和曲折。
Actually, my favorite version of this is there's a classic Chinese literature called Romance of Three Kingdoms.
事实上，我最喜欢的版本是中国古典文学作品《三国演义》。
It's great novel.
这是一本很棒的小说。
It talked about the three kingdom era of China and the opening sentence of this novel, it's, "Empires long united must divide, long divided must unite." That has always been bundling, unbundling.
讲的是中国的三个王国时代，小说的开篇就是“帝国久合必分，久分必合”。这一直是捆绑、分拆。
It's one of my favorite book to read when I was a kid, but business works same way.
这是我小时候最喜欢读的书之一，但商业也是如此。
When there's too much, you can see this.
当太多的时候，你可以看到这个。
Ivan Zhao: It's like before computers, everything works on paper.
赵伊凡：就像计算机出现之前一样，一切都在纸上进行。
Our knowledge work are done through papers is fully democratized medium.
我们的知识工作是通过论文完成的，这是完全民主化的媒介。
Then PC happens during the '80s.
然后 PC 出现在 80 年代。
The first era is a piece there actually are so many applications.
第一个时代是一块，其实有很多应用。
There's early database software, dBASE, it's quite famous.
有早期的数据库软件，dBASE，相当有名。
It started dBASE 2 because it gives them credibility.
它启动了 dBASE 2，因为它给了他们可信度。
Oh, they have been stick around for some time.
哦，他们已经坚持了一段时间了。
So that's the first unbundling phase of software computing.
这就是软件计算的第一个分拆阶段。
Then Microsoft bundled everything back into one suite in the '90s.
然后，微软在 90 年代将所有内容重新捆绑到一个套件中。
Then the SaaS unbundled it.
然后 SaaS 将其分拆。
Now, we're at the tail end of SaaS.
现在，我们正处于 SaaS 的尾端。
There's so many verticalized SaaS average company to use almost a hundred tools.
有很多垂直化 SaaS 公司使用近百种工具。
It's madness.
这太疯狂了。
So there's more the market shifting towards more a bundling approach.
因此，市场越来越多地转向捆绑方式。
And with AI and with the macro, so there's more value to be created through bundling, at least for now.
借助人工智能和宏观因素，通过捆绑可以创造更多价值，至少目前是这样。
The market could shift again.
市场可能会再次发生转变。
So understand this trend, I think, helpful to see should you build a vertical solution or should you build horizontal solution because it does different things.
因此，我认为了解这一趋势有助于了解您应该构建垂直解决方案还是应该构建水平解决方案，因为它做不同的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that story.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个故事。
Okay, so last question.
好的，最后一个问题。
Something that one of your early investors, Finn Barnes, suggested to ask you.
你的一位早期投资者 Finn Barnes 建议向你询问一些事情。
I'm curious where this goes.
我很好奇这会去哪里。
There's this, and you've touched on this a number of times, just the way you think about Notion, it's almost like a philosophy of how to work and be versus just a productivity tool.
就是这样，你已经多次提到过这一点，就像你思考 Notion 的方式一样，它几乎就像一种关于如何工作和存在的哲学，而不仅仅是一种生产力工具。
And so I'm just curious how you think about the relationship between tools and human potential and humans and how we live in the world.
所以我很好奇你如何看待工具和人类潜力、人类以及我们如何生活在这个世界上之间的关系。
Ivan Zhao: The tools are extensions of us.
赵伊凡：工具是我们的延伸。
That's why our office room named as timeless tools.
这就是为什么我们的办公室被称为永恒的工具。
They extend us a little bit.
他们让我们扩展了一点。
And once they extend us, once we shape them, once we bring them to world, they can come back to shape us.
一旦它们扩展了我们，一旦我们塑造了它们，一旦我们将它们带到了世界，它们就可以回来塑造我们。
Ivan Zhao: One of my favorite quotes like the Marshall MacLean quotes, "We shape our tools.
赵伊凡：我最喜欢的名言之一，比如马歇尔·麦克莱恩的名言，“我们塑造我们的工具。
Then after, our tools shape us." I think that's probably too philosophical for building product or business, but there is a sense thinking what are you bringing to the world that will come back to bite you or shape you?
然后，我们的工具塑造了我们。”我认为这对于构建产品或业务来说可能过于哲学化，但有一种感觉是，思考你给世界带来了什么，这些东西会反过来咬你或塑造你？
And are you extending the part, the so-called good part of human nature, or are you extending the part that might be more zero-sum, might be more negative, right?
你是在扩展人性中所谓的美好部分，还是在扩展可能更零和、可能更消极的部分，对吧？
Ivan Zhao: For me, what is Legos?
赵立坚：对我来说，乐高积木是什么？
Lego is creativity.
乐高就是创造力。
Lego is beauty.
乐高就是美。
Software to me feels like lacking both.
对我来说，软件感觉两者都缺乏。
It's definitely lacking a lot of creativity.
肯定是缺乏很多创意。
It's so rigid.
就是这么僵硬。
So I believe both are human nature that worth amplifying.
所以我相信两者都是值得放大的人性。
You can build another business that amplifies a different part of human nature.
你可以建立另一个企业来放大人性的不同部分。
There was Sequoia famously invests in seven sins or seven human natures of human because they're so powerful if you just latch onto them, you can create a business, you can create a product.
众所周知，红杉投资于人类的七种原罪或七种人性，因为它们是如此强大，如果你抓住它们，你可以创造一项业务，你可以创造一种产品。
But at least I prefer to amplify creativity and beauty in the domain of software.
但至少我更喜欢在软件领域增强创造力和美感。
To me, that's aligned with my values and I think can at least shape the market, shape our user of our product towards the better part of themself.
对我来说，这符合我的价值观，我认为至少可以塑造市场，塑造我们产品的用户走向更好的一面。
Lenny Rachitsky: It must feel so good to have a product that is so aligned with the way you want to see the world and actually working and growing at this rate and scaling and becoming this, I don't know, part of the ether of the world.
Lenny Rachitsky：拥有一款与您想要看待世界的方式如此一致的产品，并且以这种速度实际工作和增长，并扩展并成为（我不知道）世界以太的一部分，感觉一定很好。
Ivan Zhao: It feels good.
赵伊凡：感觉很好。
Yeah, it feels good that some of the most heartwarming thing is still it never gets old when you walk by coffee shop and see people using Notion.
是的，当你走过咖啡店并看到人们使用 Notion 时，最温暖人心的事情仍然是永远不会过时，这感觉很好。
Oh, it feels good.
哦，感觉不错。
And it feels good that we see people in our community can create a living selling Notion template, Notion apps, that they're not a software engineer.
我们看到社区中的人们可以创建一个以销售为生的 Notion 模板、Notion 应用程序，而他们不是软件工程师，这感觉很好。
And going back to the original mission of when people create software, I think that's one of the most fulfilling thing, at least as a maker of tools can experience.
回到人们创建软件的最初使命，我认为这是最有成就感的事情之一，至少作为工具制造商可以体验到。
Lenny Rachitsky: That last point, I think people don't realize, so people are making millions of dollars selling Notion templates on the internet like at Etsy and other places.
Lenny Rachitsky：最后一点，我认为人们没有意识到，所以人们在互联网上（比如 Etsy 和其他地方）销售 Notion 模板赚了数百万美元。
Ivan Zhao: Consulting templates, yeah, and they're not programmers.
赵伊凡：咨询模板，是的，他们不是程序员。
I think I would say that's the heart of that because their domain expertise, they're YouTubers or creators.
我想我会说这是核心，因为他们拥有领域专业知识，他们是 YouTuber 或创作者。
They have lifestyle brand.
他们有生活方式品牌。
They know certain things but they're not makers of software.
他们知道某些事情，但他们不是软件制造商。
Then they can use Notion, package their workflows and expertise into Notion and templates and make limit with it.
然后他们可以使用 Notion，将他们的工作流程和专业知识打包到 Notion 和模板中，并对其进行限制。
It's awesome, all that.
太棒了，这一切。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, millions of dollars is it's crazy.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，数百万美元太疯狂了。
Ivan, before we get to an abridged lightning round, I'm curious if there's anything else that you wanted to touch on think might be useful for folks to hear before we get to a very exciting lightning round.
伊万，在我们进行简短的闪电回合之前，我很好奇您是否还有其他想谈的内容，认为在我们进行非常激动人心的闪电回合之前可能对人们有用。
Ivan Zhao: I think people in tech, I wish more people look beyond tech to steal good ideas.
赵伊凡：我认为科技界的人，我希望更多的人能够超越科技来窃取好的想法。
It's like Tech Hacker News Twitter are so focused on the now and what's in front of it, what happened six months ago, versus humanity.
就像 Twitter 的科技黑客新闻如此关注现在和前方的事情，六个月前发生的事情，而不是人类。
If you just read books in other industry, you can look sideways.
如果你只是看其他行业的书，你可以斜着看。
If you go back to history, there's a massive amount of patterns and shapes and trade-offs you can steal from and you can make what's in front of you much more interesting.
如果你回顾历史，你会发现大量的模式、形状和权衡你可以借鉴，你可以让你面前的东西变得更加有趣。
You could give you...
你可以给你...
People figure out clever patterns in whatever domain in the past.
人们在过去的任何领域都找出了聪明的模式。
You can just take in front of you.
你可以直接拿在你面前。
And I wish more people do that.
我希望更多的人这样做。
I think it would be a very interesting way for product makers, business maker to solve the problem in front of them by stealing outside of from the domain of tech and business.
我认为对于产品制造商、商业制造商来说，通过从技术和商业领域之外窃取来解决他们面前的问题将是一种非常有趣的方式。
So at least it's very inspiring, very useful for me personally.
所以至少它对我个人来说是非常鼓舞人心、非常有用的。
Lenny Rachitsky: It makes me think of the quote, "Good artist copy.
Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起了这句话：“优秀的艺术家复制品。
Great artists steal."
伟大的艺术家偷窃。”
Ivan Zhao: Great artists steal, yeah.
赵伊凡：伟大的艺术家偷窃，是的。
Well, Steve Jobs stole that from Picasso or something who stole from former artist probably.
好吧，史蒂夫·乔布斯从毕加索那里偷走了这一点，或者可能从前艺术家那里偷了一些东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, this is actually an amazing segue to our very abridged lightning round.
Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，这实际上是我们非常精简的闪电回合的精彩延续。
And the first question is...
第一个问题是......
And by the way, welcome to the lightning round.
顺便说一句，欢迎来到闪电回合。
Lenny Rachitsky: The first question is just what are a couple of books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题是您最向其他人推荐的几本书是什么？
Could be along the lines of what you just described or could just be generally.
可能符合您刚才描述的内容，也可能只是一般情况。
Ivan Zhao: I think the domain that are interesting the most is the complex system domain.
赵伊凡：我认为最有趣的领域是复杂系统领域。
You can look up the term.
你可以查一下这个词。
I think more and more people talk about this, but thinking a system, complex system when all the different things merge together, it creates emergent properties.
我认为越来越多的人谈论这一点，但是当所有不同的事物融合在一起时，思考一个系统，复杂的系统，它会产生涌现的属性。
Talking about ants, talk about beads, talk about life itself.
谈论蚂蚁，谈论珠子，谈论生命本身。
It's just so fascinating how do with few primitives, few Lego bricks, you can create a thing called life.
如何用很少的基元、很少的乐高积木，就能创造出一种叫做生命的东西，真是太令人着迷了。
That thing just, it's sugar for me.
那东西对我来说就是糖。
So I love reading in that domain.
所以我喜欢阅读该领域的内容。
And this is really helpful for create product, at least a horizontal product because you're trying to channel the energy, smaller parts to create something that the sum is much larger than its parts.
这对于创造产品确实很有帮助，至少是水平产品，因为你试图引导能量，更小的部件来创造总和比其部件大得多的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a specific book that comes to mind or is it just generally that's a cool area?
Lenny Rachitsky：有没有想到一本特定的书，或者只是一般来说这是一个很酷的领域？
Ivan Zhao: That's a cool area to your attention to.
赵伊凡：这是一个值得你关注的很酷的领域。
Lenny Rachitsky: Next question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?
您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Ivan Zhao: I like to watch old documentaries.
赵伊凡：我喜欢看老纪录片。
Maybe this is another area or category too.
也许这也是另一个领域或类别。
There's quite a few on YouTube.
YouTube 上有不少。
People make really good documentary in the '80s, in the '70s.
人们在 80 年代、70 年代制作了非常好的纪录片。
That's like all the old BBC ones, they're just excellent and they have a strong opinion in them.
就像所有 BBC 的老节目一样，他们非常出色，而且有很强的观点。
It's no longer just general education thing.
这不再只是普通教育的事情。
They have a direction.
他们有一个方向。
They have a taste.
他们有品味。
Go look it up.
去查一下吧。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
One is a really good one to get started called Connections.
其中一个非常适合入门，称为“连接”。
I think it's called but the gentleman's name is Burke.
我想它是这样称呼的，但这位绅士的名字叫伯克。
It's about how different things from different domains inspire other domains, and usually he used 30 minutes or 60 minutes to chain together a bunch of connection of stories.
讲的是不同领域的不同事物如何启发其他领域，他通常用30分钟或60分钟的时间把一堆故事串联起来。
It's really good for technologists to watch.
对于技术人员来说确实值得一看。
Highly recommend.
强烈推荐。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel a very consistent pattern throughout all of these answers and your entire conversation of just emerging properties, connections, Legos, building abstractions.
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得所有这些答案以及您关于新兴属性、联系、乐高积木、建筑抽象的整个对话都有一个非常一致的模式。
Ivan Zhao: Yeah, I think I did Enneagram.
赵伊凡：是的，我想我演了九型人格。
My Enneagram, it's 7 and 7.
我的九型人格，是7和7。
7 is, it is actually perfect with what we just talking about.
7是，它实际上与我们刚才所说的很完美。
7 is creative, finding connection, see the forest and tree.
7是创造性，寻找联系，见森林，见树。
8 is they call Challenger.
8 他们称之为挑战者。
It's like competitive AR optimizing.
这就像竞争性 AR 优化。
So true energy accessing me.
如此真实的能量接近我。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，哇。
It's all makes sense.
这一切都是有道理的。
I got to take this Enneagram.
我必须接受这个九型人格。
This comes up a bunch on this podcast.
这在这个播客中出现了很多。
Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。
Do you have a life motto that you often think back to, that you often repeat in your head of just like when times are hard or just to keep going with something you're working on that you find useful?
您是否有一个经常回想的人生座右铭，您经常在脑海中重复这句话，就像在困难时期或只是继续做您认为有用的事情一样？
Ivan Zhao: I like to think things as a craft.
赵伊凡：我喜欢把事情当作一门手艺来思考。
You just make it better.
你只是让它变得更好。
Make for yourself.
为自己做。
If it's unique enough for yourself and useful for others, things will follow.
如果它对你自己来说足够独特并且对其他人有用，那么事情就会水到渠成。
Lenny Rachitsky: Ivan, thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：Ivan，非常感谢你来到这里。
Two final questions, working folks find you online if they want to follow-up on anything, and then how can listeners be useful to you?
最后两个问题，上班族如果想跟进任何事情，都会在网上找到你，那么听众对你有什么用处呢？
Ivan Zhao: Probably find on me on Twitter, Ivan Z-H-A-O.
Ivan Zhao：可能会在 Twitter 上找到我，Ivan Z-H-A-O。
It's helpful give us feedback about Notion, about our product.
向我们提供有关 Notion 和我们产品的反馈很有帮助。
That's the best help.
这就是最好的帮助。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's the best way to do that?
Lenny Rachitsky：最好的方法是什么？
Is it like DM, Ivan, or is it-
是像 DM，伊万，还是——
Ivan Zhao: DM me.
赵伊凡：私信我。
Yeah, that's probably the best way.
是的，这可能是最好的方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Oh boy, here you go.
哦，孩子，给你。
And then you guys are hiring.
然后你们就开始招聘了。
Anything specific you're looking for?
您正在寻找什么具体的东西吗？
Anything people should know if they're like, "Oh shit, I want to go work here"?
如果人们想“哦，该死，我想去这里工作”，他们应该知道什么？
Ivan Zhao: We're trying to hire misfits.
赵伊凡：我们正在尝试雇用不适应的人。
So if you think you're a misfit, if you're exceptional at many things especially, you want to build Lego for software, you want to take interesting spin on AI with Lego for software, then DM me.
因此，如果你认为自己不适应，如果你在很多事情上都表现出色，特别是你想为软件构建乐高，你想用软件乐高在人工智能上进行有趣的旋转，那么请私信我。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Ivan, thank you so much for being here.
伊万，非常感谢你来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。