What it takes to become a top 1% PM | Ian McAllister (Uber, Amazon, Airbnb)

Ian McAllister: If you forget about everything else, forget about politics, forget about promotion, or having a bigger org or whatever, if you simply wake up every day trying to have the biggest impact you can, or if you're a leader trying to use your team to have the biggest impact you can in the company, how you do every part of your day, that's a really good guiding light.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：如果你忘记了其他一切，忘记了政治，忘记了晋升，或者拥有一个更大的组织或其他什么，如果你只是每天醒来都试图产生最大的影响，或者如果你是一个领导者，试图利用你的团队在公司中产生最大的影响，那么你如何做一天中的每一部分，这都是一个非常好的指导明灯。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

Today my guest is Ian McAllister.

今天我的嘉宾是伊恩·麦卡利斯特。

Ian is the author of one of the most classic posts on product management, What Separates a Top 1% PM from a Top 10% PM, amongst many other pieces of writing that he shared online.

Ian 是产品管理领域最经典的文章之一《Top 1% PM 与 Top 10% PM 的区别》的作者，以及他在网上分享的许多其他文章。

Ian has managed over 100 product managers in his career.

Ian 在其职业生涯中管理过 100 多名产品经理。

He spent 12 years at Amazon where he built Amazon Smile and led the team responsible for growing Alexa internationally.

他在亚马逊工作了 12 年，建立了 Amazon Smile 并领导团队负责在国际上发展 Alexa。

He also worked at Airbnb with me and now he's at Uber leading global product for the vehicles platform, which includes making Uber's fleet increasingly electric and autonomous.

他还和我一起在 Airbnb 工作，现在他在 Uber 领导全球车辆平台产品，其中包括使 Uber 车队变得越来越电动化和自动化。

In our conversation, we focus primarily on two topics.

在我们的谈话中，我们主要关注两个主题。

What separates a top 1% PM from everyone else, specifically for new PMs and also for senior PMs.

顶尖 1% 的 PM 与其他人的区别是什么，特别是对于新 PM 和高级 PM 而言。

And we also dig deep into the working backwards process.

我们还深入研究了逆向工作过程。

We get into how you can implement the process on your team and how you might be doing it wrong.

我们将探讨如何在您的团队中实施该流程以及您可能会如何做错。

There's also a bunch of links to templates and guides in the show notes, so if you want to follow along, definitely check those out.

节目注释中还有很多指向模板和指南的链接，因此如果您想继续操作，请务必查看这些链接。

With that, I bring you Ian McAllister.

接下来，我为您带来伊恩·麦卡利斯特。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Mixpanel.

Lenny：这一集是由 Mixpanel 为您带来的。

Offering powerful self-serve product analytics.

提供强大的自助产品分析。

If you listen to this podcast, you know that it's really hard to build great product without making compromises.

如果您收听此播客，您就会知道在不做出妥协的情况下构建出色的产品确实很难。

And when it comes to using data, a lot of teams think that they only have two choices.

当谈到使用数据时，很多团队认为他们只有两个选择。

Make quick decisions based on gut feelings or make data driven decisions at a snail's pace.

根据直觉快速做出决策，或以蜗牛般的速度做出数据驱动的决策。

But that's a false choice.

但这是一个错误的选择。

You shouldn't have to compromise on speed to get product answers that you can trust.

您无需牺牲速度即可获得值得信赖的产品答案。

With Mixpanel, there are no trade offs.

使用 Mixpanel，无需权衡。

Get deep insights at the speed of thought at a fair price that scales as you grow.

以合理的价格以思考的速度获得深入的见解，并随着您的成长而扩展。

Mixpanel builds powerful and intuitive product analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford.

Mixpanel 构建了强大而直观的产品分析，每个人都可以信任、使用和负担得起。

Explore plans for teams of every size and see what Mixpanel can do for you at mixpanel.com.

访问 mixpanel.com，探索适合各种规模团队的计划，并了解 Mixpanel 可以为您做什么。

And while you're at it, they're hiring.

当你在做的时候，他们正在招聘。

Check out mixpanel.com to learn more.

请访问 mixpanel.com 了解更多信息。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens.

莱尼：这一集是由 Athletic Greens 为您带来的。

I've been hearing about AG1 on basically every podcast that I listened to, like Tim Ferris and Lex Friedman, and so I finally gave it a shot earlier this year and it has quickly become a core part of my morning routine, especially on days that I need to go deep on writing or record a podcast like this.

我基本上在我听过的每个播客上都听说过 AG1，比如蒂姆·费里斯 (Tim Ferris) 和莱克斯·弗里德曼 (Lex Friedman)，所以我终于在今年早些时候尝试了一下，它很快就成为我早上例行公事的核心部分，尤其是在我需要深入写作或录制这样的播客的时候。

Here's three things that I love about AG1.

以下是我喜欢 AG1 的三点。

One, with a small scoop that dissolves in water you are absorbing 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens.

第一，只需一小勺溶解在水中的物质，您就可以吸收 75 种维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原。

I kind of like to think of it as a little safety net for my nutrition in case I've missed something in my diet.

我有点喜欢将其视为我的营养的一个小安全网，以防我在饮食中错过了某些东西。

Two, they treat AG1 like a software product.

第二，他们将 AG1 视为软件产品。

Apparently they're on their 52nd iteration and they're constantly evolving it based on the latest science, research studies and internal testing that they do.

显然他们正在进行第 52 次迭代，并且他们根据最新的科学、研究和内部测试不断改进它。

Lenny: And three, it's just one easy thing that I can do every single day to take care of myself.

莱尼：第三，这只是我每天可以做的一件简单的事情来照顾自己。

Right now it's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition.

现在是时候恢复您的健康并用方便的日常营养来武装您的免疫系统了。

It's just one scoop and a cup of water every day and that's it.

每天只需一勺和一杯水即可。

There's no need for a million different pills and supplements to look out for your health.

无需使用一百万种不同的药物和补充剂来照顾您的健康。

To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase.

为了方便起见，Athletic Greens 将在您首次购买时为您提供一年免费的免疫支持维生素 D 和 5 个免费旅行套装。

All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/lenny.

您所要做的就是访问 sportsgreens.com/lenny。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/lenny.

再说一次，那就是athletinggreens.com/lenny。

To take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance.

掌控您的健康并获得终极每日营养保险。

Ian McAllister: Thanks for having me, Lenny.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

I've been looking forward to this.

我一直期待着这一点。

Lenny: Me too.

莱尼：我也是。

I'm sure you hear this a lot, but when I was a new product manager, a very new PM, the post that you wrote on what makes a top 1% product manager was really influential and really helped me figure out what to focus on and what skills are really important.

我相信你经常听到这样的说法，但当我还是一名新产品经理、一名非常新的 PM 时，你写的关于如何成为前 1% 产品经理的文章确实很有影响力，并且确实帮助我弄清楚了应该关注什么以及哪些技能是真正重要的。

And I find that it continues to live on as this very legendary post for product managers who are trying to figure out what to do.

我发现，对于那些试图弄清楚该怎么做的产品经理来说，它仍然是一个非常传奇的职位。

And I just reread it in prep for this post and I was just like, wow, this is ...

我刚刚在准备这篇文章时重读了它，我就想，哇，这是......

Now that I'm on the other side, I'm like, this is so right.

现在我站在另一边，我想，这太对了。

And so I'm really excited to dig into a lot of these things in person, virtually in person, and with you.

因此，我真的很高兴能够亲自、虚拟地与您一起深入研究这些事情。

So thank you again for doing this.

再次感谢您所做的事情。

Ian McAllister: Yeah.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：是的。

Man, it's awesome.

伙计，太棒了。

I'm excited just to spend some time talking with you about product and we'll see what happens.

我很高兴能花一些时间与您讨论产品，我们将看看会发生什么。

Lenny: Did you expect the impact that this post had when you were writing it, when you were just putting this together, the impact that the post had in your career or just the PM industry?

Lenny：当你写这篇文章的时候，当你把它放在一起的时候，你有没有预料到这篇文章会产生什么样的影响，这篇文章会对你的职业生涯或者仅仅对 PM 行业产生影响？

Ian McAllister: Definitely not.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：绝对不是。

I used to lurk on Quora at the time and then I was just having fun reading things and answering some questions and I used to look for questions in the Goldilocks zone.

当时我常常潜伏在 Quora 上，然后我只是很有趣地阅读东西并回答一些问题，并且我常常在金发姑娘区寻找问题。

They weren't too high level of abstract like how do you be a good problem, but they weren't too super specific and this one was kind of right in the middle.

它们并不是太抽象，比如你如何成为一个好问题，但它们也不是太具体，而这个问题就在中间。

And so I'd pluck off a couple of those and I think more as a way to structure my own thoughts, that was what was interesting and fun for me to do that.

所以我会摘下其中的一些，我认为更多的是作为构建我自己的想法的一种方式，这对我来说是有趣和有趣的。

Not because I thought it'd have any kind of real reach.

不是因为我认为它会有任何真正的影响力。

But obviously it's been cool to see that people reference it pretty often and that's been pretty fun.

但显然，看到人们经常引用它真是太酷了，而且这很有趣。

Lenny: We'll link to this in the show notes.

莱尼：我们将在演出笔记中链接到此内容。

If folks that are listening don't know what we're talking about, we'll link to it and you can check it all out.

如果正在听的人不知道我们在说什么，我们将链接到它，您可以全部查看。

And we're going to be talking about a lot of this stuff in the actual chat, but there's a couple things there that are worth maybe drilling in on a little bit.

我们将在实际聊天中讨论很多此类内容，但有一些内容值得深入研究。

One is just the impact that writing on the internet can have on someone's career.

其中之一就是在互联网上写作可能对某人的职业生涯产生的影响。

This one post I imagine had a lot of impact on the trajectory of your career.

我想这篇文章对你的职业轨迹产生了很大的影响。

Is there something you could share there?

有什么可以分享的吗？

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

Ian McAllister: Yeah, it did.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：是的，确实如此。

And there's another post, I think it was before this one, someone just asked about Amazon's product development process and so I wrote about the working backwards process.

还有另一篇文章，我想是在这篇文章之前，有人刚刚询问了亚马逊的产品开发流程，所以我写了有关向后工作的流程。

Which isn't my process.

这不是我的过程。

I just used it and just described it and just kind of caught on a little bit there as well.

我只是使用了它并描述了它，并且也有点了解它。

I think those two, and then I started to write more about people management and product management.

我想到了这两点，然后我开始写更多关于人员管理和产品管理的文章。

And I think the value for me was so awesome just to make connections with people in the industry and it felt like this is, I guess, the 2010 or something like this where a lot of Amazon people I of thought were just so 100% heads down.

我认为与业内人士建立联系对我来说价值是如此之大，我想，这就像 2010 年或类似的事情，我认为很多亚马逊人都 100% 低着头。

It was a little bit of a secretive culture, not maybe like Apple, but it was pretty private.

这是一种有点神秘的文化，可能不像苹果，但它非常私密。

But I was interested in the startup community and product in general and so I think I spent a little time trying to engage with folks and I just made so many great connections and relationships from this.

但我对创业社区和产品很感兴趣，所以我想我花了一点时间尝试与人们互动，我只是从中建立了很多很好的联系和关系。

Ian McAllister: I remember interacting with you and getting to know Joebot and other folks at Airbnb early on even before I joined.

Ian McAllister：我记得在我加入 Airbnb 之前，我就与您互动并认识了 Joebot 和 Airbnb 的其他人。

But obviously I'd credit this work and those relationships for me ultimately going there and so many great relationships and people I've met because of it.

但显然，我会感谢这份工作和这些关系，让我最终能去那里，并因此结识了许多伟大的关系和人。

And aside from just the little positive feedback, I mean people tweet at me periodically, be like, "Hey, by the way, just love this post," and whatever.

除了一些积极的反馈之外，我的意思是人们定期向我发推文，比如，“嘿，顺便说一句，只是喜欢这篇文章，”等等。

And so it's super gratifying.

所以这是非常令人高兴的。

Lenny: You mentioned a little bit about your background and we're about to get into that and I want you to share all the things you've done.

莱尼：你提到了一些你的背景，我们即将讨论这个问题，我希望你分享你所做的所有事情。

But the other piece there that I think is interesting that comes up again and again in the power of writing is it often just starts with you trying to collect your thoughts and putting it out there and ends up, wow, so many people find that valuable and it spreads.

但我认为另一件有趣的事情在写作的力量中一次又一次地出现，它通常只是从你试图收集你的想法并将其放在那里开始，最后结束，哇，这么多人发现它有价值并且它传播开来。

And so that's just a really simple way of thinking about if you're starting to write online, just summarize something that you've been thinking about that you want to just crystallize in your own head.

因此，如果您开始在线写作，这只是一种非常简单的思考方式，只需总结一些您一直在思考的事情，并希望在自己的头脑中具体化即可。

There's this quote that's probably falsely attributed to Mark Twain and Hemingway often of just like, I don't know what I've thought until I've written it down.

有句话可能被错误地归因于马克·吐温和海明威，就像，在我把它写下来之前，我不知道我在想什么。

And that's super true with these things and so that's a good example of this.

对于这些事情来说这是非常正确的，所以这是一个很好的例子。

Ian McAllister: And I think with any kind of writing, it was probably less structured initially, but I would, partially because I was trying to share something for an external audience, try to just organize it and make it compact and not too wordy or rambling.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我认为任何类型的写作，最初可能都不太结构化，但我会尝试组织它并使其紧凑，而不是太罗嗦或漫无目的，部分原因是我试图向外部受众分享一些东西。

And I think business writing, I spent a lot of that time doing that at Amazon, is so valuable because you've got to be a clear thinker to be a clear communicator.

我认为商业写作非常有价值，我在亚马逊花了很多时间这样做，因为你必须成为一个清晰的思考者才能成为一个清晰的沟通者。

And so there's two tests in writing well or communicating well.

因此，有两个测试：良好的写作或良好的沟通。

It's both those things.

就是这两件事。

So I found it's pretty valuable in kind of sharpening your ax.

所以我发现它对于磨利斧头非常有价值。

Lenny: So these are the two things we're going to focus our chat on is what makes a top 1% product manager and then the Amazon way of working and especially working backwards.

Lenny：所以我们要重点讨论的两件事是如何成为排名前 1% 的产品经理，以及亚马逊的工作方式，尤其是逆向工作方式。

So these are all good cues for where we're going.

所以这些都是我们前进方向的良好线索。

But before we get there, can you just spend just a minute giving us a sense of some of the wonderful things you've done in your career and what you're up to now?

但在我们开始之前，您能花一点时间让我们了解一下您在职业生涯中所做的一些精彩的事情以及您现在的情况吗？

Ian McAllister: Well, I can tell you what I have done.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：好吧，我可以告诉你我做了什么。

I'll let others decide what's wonderful or not.

我会让其他人来决定什么是精彩的，什么是不好的。

So after doing finance and economics in school, I made the logical choice and I got a job doing marketing in the beer industry and then the next logical choice, I moved to Tokyo and I bootstrapped my way into software development without knowing Japanese or software development.

因此，在学校学习了金融和经济学之后，我做出了合乎逻辑的选择，在啤酒行业找到了一份营销工作，然后下一个合乎逻辑的选择是，我搬到了东京，在不懂日语或软件开发的情况下自行进入了软件开发领域。

Did that for a few years, came back to the states working as a developer at a startup and then kind of a midsize company and then moved to Microsoft as a program manager, pretty much a product manager.

这样做了几年，回到美国在一家初创公司担任开发人员，然后成为一家中型公司，然后转到微软担任项目经理，几乎是产品经理。

The same thing there in that role.

那个角色也有同样的事情。

Learned some good stuff and then made a connection with Amazon and moved there 2006.

学到了一些好东西，然后与亚马逊建立了联系，并于 2006 年搬到了那里。

And that was really the start of when I think about building my product toolbox and leadership toolbox.

这确实是我考虑构建我的产品工具箱和领导力工具箱的开始。

So few different things I did over 12 years, a few years in retail and conversion.

12 年来，我做了一些不同的事情，其中​​几年从事零售和转换工作。

Ian McAllister: I then moved in traffic and direct traffic loyalty when I created Amazon Smile.

Ian McAllister：当我创建 Amazon Smile 时，我增加了流量和直接流量忠诚度。

The role in Alexa.

Alexa 中的角色。

I led Alexa International, so scaling Alexa and Echo to six more countries.

我领导了 Alexa International，将 Alexa 和 Echo 扩展到另外六个国家。

And the last role in delivery experience and operations.

最后一个作用是交付经验和运营。

So I led a number of different programs there and then recently joined Uber where I'm a senior director of product and tech for vehicles.

因此，我在那里领导了许多不同的项目，然后最近加入了 Uber，担任车辆产品和技术高级总监。

So that means everything, all the tools that help fleets and rental companies make their vehicles accessible to Uber drivers so they can earn.

所以这意味着一切，所有帮助车队和租赁公司让优步司机可以使用他们的车辆的工具，这样他们就可以赚钱。

Sustainability tech and electrification, our vehicle platform, and then creating a path for autonomous vehicles to come onto the platform.

可持续发展技术和电气化，我们的车辆平台，然后为自动驾驶汽车进入该平台创造一条道路。

And that's it.

就是这样。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I just realized this one thread through your career is autonomy and AI a little bit, right?

我刚刚意识到贯穿你职业生涯的一条主线是自主性和人工智能，对吗？

With Alexa and then with Uber, with these autonomous cars stuff you're working on now.

有了 Alexa，然后有了 Uber，还有你现在正在开发的自动驾驶汽车。

Is that something realized or is that an accident?

这是意识到的事情还是偶然？

Ian McAllister: Well, I mean I guess you could connect those things.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：嗯，我的意思是我猜你可以把这些东西联系起来。

Obviously both are machine learning, AI.

显然两者都是机器学习、人工智能。

The way I think about it is that I've done a whole bunch of different lifetimes, especially around eCommerce, and so it allows me to cover the gamut.

我的想法是，我经历了很多不同的人生，尤其是在电子商务方面，所以它让我能够涵盖所有领域。

Plus, I guess I forgot to mention the time at Airbnb working with Joebot and you and Vlad and Dan and Shirley and there was focused on building out the customer support technology platform.

另外，我想我忘了提及在 Airbnb 与 Joebot、你、Vlad、Dan 和 Shirley 合作的时间，重点是构建客户支持技术平台。

So that's another part of the eCommerce platform.

这是电子商务平台的另一部分。

Covers the gamut.

覆盖整个色域。

Lenny: I forgot to bring that up too.

莱尼：我也忘了提起这一点。

I'm glad you touched on that.

我很高兴你谈到了这一点。

Ian McAllister: I don't know how I missed that.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我不知道我是怎么错过的。

I guess I skipped past that with the Amazon stuff.

我想我跳过了亚马逊的东西。

Lenny: The most transformative time getting to work together.

Lenny：一起工作最具变革性的时刻。

Ian McAllister: That was awesome.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：太棒了。

That was awesome.

太棒了。

I learned a lot from you too during that time.

那段时间我也从你身上学到了很多东西。

Lenny: What a time.

莱尼：真是一次啊。

This is a good time to chat about, speaking of Airbnb and all that, to chat about what makes a top 1% product manager.

这是一个谈论 Airbnb 之类的好时机，谈论什么是顶级 1% 产品经理。

So I know your post was really titled what separates a 1% PM from a 10% PM, but it feels like it's even broader, just like how do you become a top 1% product manager.

所以我知道你的帖子的标题确实是“1% PM 与 10% PM 的区别”，但感觉它的范围更广，就像你如何成为前 1% 的产品经理一样。

And I thought maybe a good way to start here is maybe just run through the attributes that you've found over the years or here's the things that a top 1% PM needs to get great at.

我认为也许从这里开始的一个好方法可能是回顾一下您多年来发现的属性，或者这是 1% 的顶级 PM 需要擅长的事情。

Maybe just run through them and then we'll talk through them in a little more detail.

也许只是浏览一下它们，然后我们会更详细地讨论它们。

Ian McAllister: Yeah, I was going to pull up my post here so I could actually refer to it.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：是的，我打算把我的帖子放在这里，这样我就可以实际参考它。

Do you want me to go through all of them or just pick out a couple to touch on?

你想让我把所有的内容都讲一遍还是只挑几个来谈一下？

Lenny: Let's maybe just go through them quickly just to put them out there and then I'll have some follow up questions to dig into a few of them.

莱尼：也许让我们快速浏览一下它们，然后我将提出一些后续问题来深入研究其中的一些问题。

Ian McAllister: All right, sounds good.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：好吧，听起来不错。

Well, the way I listed it at the time, think big.

嗯，按照我当时列出的方式，往大处想。

Always want to hunt for bigger impact.

总是想寻找更大的影响。

Communicate, I think we'll probably touch on that a little bit.

沟通一下，我想我们可能会稍微谈一下这个问题。

It's super important for PMs as a test of their thinking and their communication.

这对于产品经理来说非常重要，可以测试他们的思维和沟通能力。

Simplify.

简化。

How you can do more with less and have more impact.

如何用更少的资源做更多的事情并产生更大的影响。

Simplifying is a great way to do that.

简化是做到这一点的好方法。

Prioritize.

优先考虑。

That's I think the core skill after communication of a PM and there's so many different lenses to view that.

我认为这是产品经理沟通后的核心技能，可以从很多不同的角度来看待这一点。

Let's see here.

让我们看看这里。

Forecasting and measuring.

预测和测量。

I think that it's really important.

我认为这非常重要。

What separates product managers from consultants sometimes is you forecast and then you execute and then you measure and validate and that helps you build your instincts.

有时，产品经理与顾问的区别在于，你先预测，然后执行，然后衡量和验证，这有助于你建立自己的直觉。

Just obviously the core execution of just shipping and doing what you said you do.

显然，核心执行就是发货并按照你所说的去做。

Understanding technical trade offs is that you don't have to be a software engineer to be a great PM, but the more you learn about technical trade offs, not just product and customer trade offs, that will help you simplify and get more yield out of your resources.

了解技术权衡意味着您不必成为一名软件工程师才能成为一名出色的 PM，但是您对技术权衡了解得越多，而不仅仅是产品和客户权衡，这将帮助您简化并从资源中获得更多收益。

Ian McAllister: Understanding good design.

Ian McAllister：理解好的设计。

If you're working on anything customer focused, that's always going to help you think in the mind of a customer or user.

如果你正在做任何以客户为中心的事情，那总是会帮助你从客户或用户的角度思考。

You don't need to design, but the more you understand helps.

您不需要设计，但了解得越多会有帮助。

Writing effective copy.

撰写有效的文案。

This goes a long way not to get close and not to sub out the copy to somebody else, but to get good at communicating with a couple words to your customers.

这对于不要接近、不要将文案分给其他人，而是要善于与客户进行几句话的沟通，大有帮助。

That's a great skill.

这是一项很棒的技能。

Those were the ones that I wrote at the time, I guess 10 years ago, and then I refreshed the post recently in my newsletter.

这些是我当时写的，我猜是 10 年前，然后我最近在时事通讯中刷新了这篇文章。

And I added a couple new ones honestly, because as I reflected back, there was a few that I think a lot about these days that I missed the first time around.

老实说，我添加了一些新的内容，因为当我回想起来时，有一些我这些天思考了很多的内容，而我第一次错过了。

Earn trust with others.

赢得他人的信任。

That's so important as a PM, but especially if you're going to grow as a product leader becomes even more important.

作为产品经理，这一点非常重要，但特别是如果你要成长为产品领导者，这一点就变得更加重要。

Ian McAllister: And I think trust is the currency of a product manager and a product leader, especially if you're going to grow in your career.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我认为信任是产品经理和产品领导者的货币，特别是如果你想在职业生涯中成长的话。

Digging for data.

挖掘数据。

It's out there and you got to develop the tools to go find it.

它就在那里，你必须开发工具才能找到它。

Not to depend on your analyst or what's in the reports today.

不要依赖你的分析师或今天报告中的内容。

So that's a really important skill for anyone in product.

所以这对于产品领域的任何人来说都是一项非常重要的技能。

And probably the more junior you are, the more important it is as you're really in the weeds there building product.

也许你越初级，它就越重要，因为你确实在杂草中构建产品。

Pushing back effectively.

有效反击。

This is an art and a skill, but I think your ability to do this is pretty correlated with your ability to grow and succeed as a leader.

这是一门艺术和一项技能，但我认为你做到这一点的能力与你作为领导者的成长和成功的能力密切相关。

Because if you say yes to everything, you're going to go nowhere.

因为如果你对一切都说“是”，你将一事无成。

Adapting to change.

适应变化。

How you react to change will obviously impact one, your mood and your morale, as well as how effectively you can rally yourself, your team.

你对变化的反应显然会影响你的情绪和士气，以及你如何有效地团结自己和你的团队。

And then driven by impact, not promotion.

然后由影响力而不是促销来驱动。

Ultimately that's what you want to wake up every day thinking about how to have an impact for your business and that will be an indicator on your likelihood of promotion.

最终，这就是您每天醒来时想要思考如何对您的业务产生影响的事情，这将成为您晋升可能性的指标。

So do that instead of just focusing on how to get promoted and having that guide your day.

因此，不要只关注如何晋升并以此来指导你的一天，而是要这样做。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So it's a long list.

所以这是一个很长的清单。

There's a lot that a PM needs to be good at, which I think if you're a PM you already know.

PM 需要擅长的事情有很多，我想如果你是 PM，你已经知道了。

It's a wild, crazy, impossible job to have everything nailed down.

把所有事情都搞定是一项疯狂、疯狂、不可能的工作。

And at the end of this post even mention you've never met a 1% PM that does all these things.

在这篇文章的结尾甚至提到你从来没有遇到过 1% 的 PM 能做所有这些事情。

And I think that's important.

我认为这很重要。

No one's going to be the best at all these things.

没有人会在所有这些事情上都是最好的。

And so just to drill down a little bit and get a little more focused.

所以只是要深入一点并更加集中一点。

Say you're a new product manager.

假设您是新产品经理。

Of these, I forget how many there, maybe 10, 12, what are the top three that you think new PMs should get most good at and focus on?

其中，我忘记了有多少，也许是10个、12个，您认为新PM最擅长和关注的前三项是什么？

Ian McAllister: Probably communicate, prioritize, and execute.

Ian McAllister：可能是沟通、优先排序和执行。

I think those are just the core building blocks.

我认为这些只是核心构建模块。

Other ones will be more important as you grow and become more senior, but those ones, no matter where you are in your product career I think are super important.

随着你的成长和变得更加资深，其他的会变得更加重要，但是无论你处于产品职业生涯的哪个阶段，我认为这些都是非常重要的。

Being a better communicator is something I've been working on my entire product career and I'll be working on until the day I stop.

成为一名更好的沟通者是我在整个产品职业生涯中一直致力于的事情，并且我将一直努力到停止的那一天。

And I remember years ago I was at Microsoft, my first effectively product manager role and my product unit manager, Thomas, came by the office and I think he asked me, "When is this going to ship?" And I was like, "Well, this thing is taking a little bit longer here and this other thing and yada yada." And I gave a bunch of background, but I didn't really answer the question.

我记得几年前我在微软，我的第一个有效的产品经理角色和我的产品部门经理托马斯来到办公室，我想他问我，“这个什么时候发货？”我当时想，“好吧，这件事在这里花费了更长的时间，而另一件事和yada yada。”我提供了一些背景知识，但我并没有真正回答这个问题。

And I got a little feedback from him like, that's not really the ...

我从他那里得到了一些反馈，比如，这并不是......

Ultimately he's waiting for a date.

最终他在等待一个约会。

Ian McAllister: And so I just reflected on that and that was, as I remember, my journey to try to be a better communicator over time and I'm still on it.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：所以我只是反思了这一点，据我记得，随着时间的推移，这是我努力成为更好的沟通者的旅程，而且我仍在继续。

When I went to Amazon, I worked for Kim Rackmiller who was our, I think at the time, SVP for Worldwide Discovery.

当我去亚马逊时，我为 Kim Rackmiller 工作，我想当时他是我们的全球发现高级副总裁。

And I think she was Amazon's first TPM.

我认为她是亚马逊的第一位 TPM。

And she was tough but super smart.

她很坚强，但超级聪明。

And so that was also an early experience to learn from her.

所以这也是值得向她学习的早期经验。

And sometimes you get some feedback when you didn't really answer the question.

有时，当你没有真正回答问题时，你会得到一些反馈。

And my first boss, Russell and I organized and started to gather this thing called the Book of Kim.

我的第一位老板拉塞尔和我组织并开始收集这本书，叫做《金之书》。

And so we would gather these best practices that we learned from her elsewhere.

因此，我们会收集从她其他地方学到的这些最佳实践。

Avoid weasel words, answer first and then explain, own your problems.

避免狡辩，先回答再解释，承认自己的问题。

And started building this.

并开始构建这个。

Ian McAllister: And then I extended that over time and added a bunch more and wrote a post called the Operators Manual.

Ian McAllister：然后我随着时间的推移扩展了它，添加了更多内容，并写了一篇名为《操作员手册》的帖子。

I tried to gather all these things together.

我试图将所有这些东西收集在一起。

But it's such an important thing and the stakes get higher as you work with more and more senior people.

但这是一件非常重要的事情，而且当你与越来越多的资深人士一起工作时，风险就会变得越来越大。

But if you can get in the habit early of answering a when question with a date, knowing how to use numbers to answer questions and honestly just learning from feedback and grade yourself after you get feedback on a doc or after a meeting or after answering a question in an elevator.

但是，如果你能尽早养成回答带有日期的时间问题的习惯，知道如何使用数字来回答问题，并诚实地从反馈中学习，并在收到有关文档的反馈、会议后或在电梯中回答问题后给自己打分。

And if you try to say, "Gosh, how could I have done that better?," and then try to get better, you can.

如果你试着说，“天哪，我怎样才能做得更好？”然后努力变得更好，你可以的。

And you can go far if you just focus on that and all the other 150 skills of a product manager, but if you don't have that, it's unlikely that you're going to really go too far in your product career.

如果你只专注于这一点以及产品经理的所有其他 150 项技能，你就能走得很远，但如果你不具备这些，你就不太可能在你的产品职业生涯中走得太远。

Ian McAllister: So that was communicate.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：这就是沟通。

I guess prioritize as the next one.

我想优先考虑下一个。

And so I think this is the number one key tool of a product manager is prioritization.

所以我认为产品经理的第一个关键工具就是优先级。

Because so many things come from being good at prioritizing.

因为很多事情都来自于善于确定优先顺序。

And it's not just what project do you do next or do you do this project or that project.

这不仅仅是你接下来要做什么项目或者你做这个项目还是那个项目。

There's so many different dimensions to prioritization.

优先级有很多不同的维度。

There's which themes are you going to prioritize in a roadmap and which projects within a theme and how are you going to sequence those projects, how much of a project you're going to build.

您将在路线图中优先考虑哪些主题，主题内的哪些项目以及您将如何对这些项目进行排序，您将构建多少项目。

And also just time management is also a prioritization function.

而且时间管理也是一个优先级功能。

Like what are you going to choose to spend your time on?

比如你会选择把时间花在什么事情上？

Which things are you going to really go all out to make great and which things are you going to starve for attention or just not do?

哪些事情是你会真正全力以赴去做的，哪些事情是你会渴望关注或干脆不做？

Given the same amount of skill intelligence and resources, a product manager with a great innate ability to prioritize is going to generate 5X the impact of someone without that skill.

考虑到相同数量的技能智力和资源，具有天生的优先排序能力的产品经理所产生的影响力将是没有这种技能的人的 5 倍。

Ian McAllister: My early, if you could call it success at Amazon, I think was completely dependent.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我的早期，如果你可以称之为亚马逊的成功的话，我认为完全是依赖。

It wasn't because I worked smarter or I was smarter, I worked longer hours or I was more technical than other people.

这并不是因为我工作得更聪明，或者我比其他人更聪明，我工作时间更长，或者我比其他人更有技术。

I think it was just because I was one, super hungry for impact.

我想这只是因为我是其中之一，超级渴望影响力。

And if there was a number or a metric that measured success at the business I was running, I wanted that to go up and to the right.

如果有一个数字或指标来衡量我所经营的业务的成功，我希望它能够上升并向右。

Not to hit a goal, but just to go as far and as fast up to the right as possible.

不是为了击中目标，而是为了尽可能远、尽可能快地到达右侧。

And if anything, it was just working with a team to hone in on the projects that would do that with the greatest leverage and just marshaling all the team's resources.

如果说有什么不同的话，那就是与一个团队合作，磨练能够以最大的杠杆作用实现这一目标的项目，并整合团队的所有资源。

So that was a good start.

所以这是一个好的开始。

That was a fit with Amazon in terms of working backwards from a fitness function or a metric.

从适应度函数或指标的逆向工作角度来看，这与亚马逊非常契合。

Ian McAllister: And so did that with the first team I was there and then again later managed the gifting business.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我在第一个团队中也是如此，后来又管理了礼品业务。

And so it just was one skill that I think helped me as well as make up for maybe some deficiencies I'd had.

因此，我认为这只是一项技能，它帮助了我，也弥补了我可能存在的一些缺陷。

I don't have the biggest brain in the world and I don't have the biggest working memory and I wasn't the most technical, but by trying to really get good at that prioritization, I think that's helped me and it still does.

我没有世界上最大的大脑，也没有最大的工作记忆，而且我也不是技术含量最高的，但通过努力真正擅长确定优先顺序，我认为这对我有帮助，而且现在仍然如此。

Ian McAllister: I think execute is the third one, which is no surprise that every PM has to execute.

Ian McAllister：我认为执行是第三个，这并不奇怪，每个 PM 都必须执行。

And I think assuming you prioritize well then execution means sort of molding what you want to build into a simple compact package that has the highest impact possible.

我认为，假设你优先考虑的事情很好，那么执行意味着将你想要构建的内容塑造成一个简单紧凑的包，以尽可能产生最大的影响。

And then also execution's a big function of the team you're working with.

执行力也是与你合作的团队的一个重要职能。

So it's your designers and your data science folks, and especially your engineers.

所以这是你的设计师和数据科学人员，尤其是你的工程师。

Ian McAllister: So anything to do with how well they're doing their jobs or how well they're resourced or whether they're getting better and better at every sprint, you have some amount of ownership in helping make that happen because that directly impacts your team's ability to execute and ultimately your reputation as well for being able to execute.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：因此，无论他们的工作做得如何，他们的资源配置如何，或者他们在每个冲刺中是否变得越来越好，你都拥有一定程度的所有权来帮助实现这一目标，因为这直接影响你的团队的执行能力，并最终影响你的声誉以及执行能力。

The drive that goes into execution, product managers are the mode of power behind execution and impact.

产品经理是执行的驱动力，是执行和影响力背后的力量模式。

And if you stall out or you don't do your job, the project's probably going to stall out as well.

如果你拖延或不做好你的工作，项目也可能会拖延。

And so you're the ones, especially with a TPM, if you're lucky enough to have one in the back of the ship, kind of beating the drum and driving everyone forward.

因此，您就是那个人，尤其是拥有 TPM 的人，如果您足够幸运，能够在船后部拥有一个 TPM，可以击鼓并推动每个人前进。

But again, lots of people have written a lot of stuff about execution and there's a lot to it, but I think those are probably the three I'd focus on.

但同样，很多人写了很多关于执行的文章，内容也很多，但我认为这可能是我会重点关注的三个。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And what's interesting about these three is if you look at the rest of the list, think big, understand technical trade offs, understand good design, I think what I would take away from this is those are the things you don't need to focus on that much when you're a new PM.

这三者的有趣之处在于，如果你看看列表的其余部分，从大处着眼，了解技术权衡，了解良好的设计，我想我会从中得到的是，当你是新产品经理时，你不需要太关注这些事情。

Focus on, as you said, communication, prioritizing, executing.

正如你所说，专注于沟通、优先排序和执行。

Focus less on these other things because later they'll become more and more important and obviously learn as much as you can, but it's almost bit easier to think about the things you don't need to stress about when you're starting out.

少关注这些其他事情，因为后来它们会变得越来越重要，并且显然会尽可能多地学习，但在开始时考虑那些不需要强调的事情几乎会更容易。

Ian McAllister: Yeah, I think that makes sense.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：是的，我认为这是有道理的。

If there's a core or think about in year one as a PM, focusing on those things.

如果作为产品经理的第一年有一个核心或考虑的事情，那就专注于这些事情。

And you can develop other skills over time.

随着时间的推移，你还可以培养其他技能。

But yeah, I think you're spot on there.

但是，是的，我认为你就在那里。

Lenny: If we were to go back through these three, just maybe as a last question, and you may not have an answer to this, but if you think about communicating, prioritizing, and executing, is there one tactical thing you could suggest that a PM listening to this can do to get better at one of these things?

Lenny：如果我们回顾一下这三个问题，也许只是作为最后一个问题，你可能对此没有答案，但如果你考虑沟通、优先级排序和执行，你是否可以建议聆听此内容的 PM 可以做些什么来在其中一件事情上做得更好？

Is there a trick you've learned of, wow, this is one way you could level up communicating, executing, prioritizing or not?

您是否学到了一个技巧，哇，这是您可以提高沟通、执行、优先顺序的一种方法吗？

Ian McAllister: The closest thing to a checklist, the post I mentioned, the Operator's Manual, that was the closest thing to, if you do these things, these specific actions, I think it'll go a long way.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：最接近清单的东西，我提到的帖子，《操作员手册》，这是最接近的东西，如果你做这些事情，这些具体的行动，我认为它会大有帮助。

Because a lot of them are guided around not doing the easy pitfalls and communication mistakes like rambling.

因为他们中的很多人都被引导不要犯一些容易犯的陷阱和沟通错误，比如漫无目的的。

If you're asked a question and you explain and then maybe you get to the answer, if you just think, answer and then explain or sometimes answer and then shut up, that actually is a tactical thing you can do to get better at communicating.

如果你被问到一个问题，你解释一下，然后也许你会得到答案，如果你只是思考，回答然后解释，或者有时回答然后闭嘴，这实际上是你可以采取的一种策略，可以更好地沟通。

And there's some other tips in there as well.

里面还有一些其他的技巧。

So that was my attempt to try to encode, to take some of the ones that we gathered early at Amazon, add some more.

所以这是我尝试编码的尝试，采用我们早期在亚马逊收集的一些内容，添加更多内容。

The others are ...

其他人是...

Yeah.

是的。

There's no just simple trick unfortunately to prioritize other than ...

不幸的是，除了……之外，没有什么简单的技巧可以确定优先顺序。

I mean I think working backwards is a good technique to have impact to guide your prioritization.

我的意思是，我认为逆向工作是一种很好的技巧，可以影响指导你的优先顺序。

And that is something where it's not a simple tip, but there's a set of practices and behaviors that you can do that will ultimately lead you to prioritize better.

这不是一个简单的技巧，而是你可以采取的一系列实践和行为，最终会让你更好地确定优先顺序。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

We'll talk about all that.

我们会讨论所有这些。

Ian McAllister: And then I think communication, the simple tip was just grade yourself after you communicate and try to just take a moment and after a while you'll just do it naturally to think about, "Gosh, how would I have answered that question better?" And so the next time you could try to answer that question better and it's just a continuous improvement process.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：然后我认为沟通，简单的技巧就是在沟通后给自己打分，并尝试花一点时间，过了一会儿你就会自然地思考，“天哪，我怎样才能更好地回答这个问题？”所以下次你可以尝试更好地回答这个问题，这只是一个持续改进的过程。

Lenny: Or maybe even ask your manager, "Hey, what could I have done better in terms of how I communicated in that last meeting or that last email?"

莱尼：或者甚至可以问你的经理，“嘿，在上次会议或最后一封电子邮件中的沟通方式方面，我可以做得更好吗？”

Lenny: Okay, so then coming at it from the other direction, say you're a senior PM, what are three of these attributes that you would suggest folks focus on to get better and level up in their career?

莱尼：好的，那么从另一个方向来看，假设您是一名高级产品经理，您建议人们关注哪三个属性，以在职业生涯中取得更好的进步和提升？

Ian McAllister: Gosh, it's still communicate, to be honest.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：天哪，说实话，这仍然是沟通。

I think that's the one at every level of product, just the stakes are higher.

我认为每个级别的产品都是如此，只是风险更高。

I think think big is one for sure.

我认为“大”是肯定的。

There was a phrase I think Warren Buffett in the Berkshire Hathaway letter used at some point.

我认为沃伦·巴菲特在伯克希尔·哈撒韦公司的信中曾使用过一句话。

Was at our scale we got to hunt for bigger elephants.

以我们的规模，我们必须寻找更大的大象。

And so I think at any scale as a PM, whatever your idea is or whatever your solution or the problem you're solving, take a minute at the beginning to say, could this be bigger?

所以我认为，作为一名产品经理，无论你的想法是什么，无论你的解决方案是什么，或者你正在解决的问题，在开始时花一点时间说，这可以更大吗？

Could this be a bigger thing and more impactful than the initial idea, even if the initial idea sounds big?

即使最初的想法听起来很大，这是否会比最初的想法更大、更有影响力？

So that's a tool and that's often where I'd start when my PMs were sharing an idea is I'd try to expand it to the degree it might be expanded, think about it from that perspective and then maybe you want to still start small, but with a bigger vision in mind.

所以这是一个工具，当我的产品经理分享一个想法时，我通常会从这个工具开始，我会尝试将其扩展到可能扩展的程度，从这个角度思考它，然后也许你仍然想从小事做起，但心中要有更大的愿景。

Ian McAllister: Earn trust is a huge one and that's kind of why I added it more recently.

Ian McAllister：赢得信任是一项巨大的任务，这就是我最近添加它的原因。

And it becomes even more important as you get into senior roles because I think it's truly the currency of a product leader or probably any leader in any function.

当你担任高级职位时，它变得更加重要，因为我认为它确实是产品领导者或任何职能部门的任何领导者的货币。

Because if you want to ask for more resources to do something bigger, if your leadership doesn't trust you to use those resources well or do what you said you're going to do, you're probably not going to get them.

因为如果你想申请更多的资源来做更大的事情，如果你的领导不相信你能很好地使用这些资源或做你说要做的事，你可能不会得到它们。

But if you've built trust that you're a good steward of resources and you make a lot of impact with a given team, that's directly going to correlate with your ability to gain more resources.

但是，如果您已经建立了信任，相信您是资源的良好管理者，并且您对特定团队产生了很大的影响，那么这将直接与您获得更多资源的能力相关。

Trust is just built by repeatedly setting and meeting expectations.

信任只能通过反复设定和满足期望来建立。

And I think that's a good mantra to think about as a FM.

我认为这是作为 FM 值得思考的一个很好的口头禅。

Am I meeting the expectations that I set?

我是否达到了我设定的期望？

And not just doing good things, but calling your shots, forecasting, setting a goal, and then hitting it.

不仅仅是做好事，而是发号施令、预测、设定目标，然后实现它。

Ian McAllister: And if you do that repeatedly, you're going to be in pretty good shape.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：如果你反复这样做，你就会保持良好的状态。

And there's so many practices as a product manager or product leader that build trust.

作为产品经理或产品领导者，有很多建立信任的实践。

You tell the truth without fail.

你说的是实话，没有失败。

And you launch when you say you'd launch and you launch what you said you'd launch and you own your mistakes.

当你说要推出时，你就推出了，你推出了你说过要推出的东西，你承认自己的错误。

And then the other practices just lose trust.

然后其他做法就失去了信任。

If you lie or if you're evasive, if you don't ship what you said you're going to do, if you ignore your mistakes or you repeat them.

如果你撒谎或者回避，如果你没有按照你所说的去做，如果你忽视你的错误或者你重复错误。

And so I think just simply having high standards for yourself and think of trust as that currency, that's going to correlate well as a PM, as a GPM or director of product in any level, that's the thing that you want to build.

因此，我认为只要对自己有高标准，并将信任视为货币，这将与任何级别的 PM、GPM 或产品总监很好地相关，这就是你想要建立的东西。

Lenny: So thinking big, building trust.

莱尼：所以要胸怀大志，建立信任。

Was there a third?

还有第三个吗？

Ian McAllister: I think maybe the last one, which is certainly relevant for a PM but is really true as well, is driven by impact.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我认为也许最后一个问题是由影响力驱动的，这当然与总理相关，但也确实如此。

And if you forget about everything else, forget about politics, forget about promotion or having a bigger org or whatever, if you simply wake up every day trying to have the biggest impact you can, or if you're a leader trying to use your team to have the biggest impact you can in the company, which will influence how you build your roadmap and how you do every part of your day, that's a really good guiding light.

如果你忘记了其他一切，忘记了政治，忘记了晋升或拥有更大的组织或其他什么，如果你只是每天醒来都试图产生最大的影响，或者如果你是一个领导者，试图利用你的团队在公司中产生最大的影响，这将影响你如何构建你的路线图以及你如何做一天中的每个部分，这都是一个非常好的指路明灯。

And I remember in my first 10 years at Amazon, just naturally not because I thought about it, I was just hungry to have an impact.

我记得在亚马逊的头 10 年里，我很自然地不是因为我想到了这一点，我只是渴望产生影响。

Take my business, grow it as fast as possible.

让我的生意尽快发展起来。

I wasn't maybe loosely thinking about promotion, but I wasn't thinking about it.

我可能没有松散地考虑晋升的问题，但我没有考虑过它。

I never talked to my manager about it and I wasn't bringing it up.

我从来没有和我的经理谈过这件事，我也没有提起。

I was just focused on taking my book of business and making it bigger.

我只是专注于扩大我的业务范围。

And then the net result was I was promoted several times and I did grow in my role, but that wasn't what drove me.

最终的结果是我多次晋升，并且我的角色确实得到了成长，但这并不是我的动力。

It was just the impact.

这只是影响。

Lenny: Would you say that driving impact is more important for a new PM or senior PM?

莱尼：您认为推动影响对于新任总理还是高级总理更重要？

It feels like impact is the soup within which all PMs swim and that's constantly important, but it's interesting that you mostly put that into the latter part of a career.

感觉影响力就像所有产品经理都在其中游泳的汤一样，这始终很重要，但有趣的是，你大多把它放在职业生涯的后期。

Do you feel like with new PMs on your team you're less expecting them to think about impact and focus on impact?

您是否觉得团队中的新产品经理不再期望他们考虑影响并专注于影响？

Ian McAllister: Well, I mean I think for junior PMs, if you're a brand new PM, then yeah, you want to have an impact, but you're really just ...

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：嗯，我的意思是，对于初级产品经理来说，如果你是一位全新的产品经理，那么是的，你想产生影响，但你真的只是......

You have a project or a feature to ship or something like that and you're often not necessarily given a lot of latitude to build your own roadmap.

您有一个项目或一个功能要发布或类似的东西，并且您通常不一定有很大的自由度来构建自己的路线图。

But you're asked to ship this.

但你被要求运送这个。

So you want to spec it, you want to execute and do it.

所以你想要规范它，你想要执行它。

But increasingly as you grow, there are opportunities to sense out and try to have a bigger impact maybe and then start to influence prioritization or roadmaps.

但随着你的成长，你越来越有机会感知并尝试产生更大的影响，然后开始影响优先级或路线图。

It's just that the expectations, it goes from being a nice to have as a junior or first time PM to as you get a little more senior, hopefully if things work the way they should work, that's really how you're evaluated.

只是期望，从作为初级或第一次担任 PM 时的美好，到当你变得更高级时，希望如果事情按照应有的方式进行，这就是对你的评估。

Yes, you want to treat your team well and you want to do a whole bunch of other things, but take two people, one has a massive impact on the business and one who doesn't, then the right way to work should be that first person should be the one that grows and develops and is tasked and with bigger challenges just because if you're impactful at a bigger challenge, that's even more important for the business.

是的，你想善待你的团队，你想做一大堆其他的事情，但是如果有两个人，一个对业务有巨大影响，一个对业务没有重大影响，那么正确的工作方式应该是，第一个人应该是成长和发展的人，肩负着更大的挑战，因为如果你能在更大的挑战中发挥影响力，这对业务来说就更重要了。

So I think that's a good way to think about the flywheel of product leadership.

所以我认为这是思考产品领导力飞轮的好方法。

Lenny: It feels like a lot of times you get lucky as a new PM.

莱尼：作为新任总理，很多时候感觉很幸运。

You work on a project that ends up having a lot of impact that you didn't necessarily drive.

你从事的项目最终会产生很大的影响，但你不一定能推动这一影响。

You just happen to work on something that, wow, this was a huge deal and that feels like an important thing to optimize for a little in your early career is work on something that's likely to have a lot of impact even if you're not responsible for setting the strategy and prioritizing.

你只是碰巧在做一些事情，哇，这是一件大事，感觉像是一件重要的事情，在你的早期职业生涯中需要优化一点，那就是做一些可能产生很大影响的事情，即使你不负责制定策略和优先顺序。

Ian McAllister: Well, I think that's true if you have a choice in where you work in product.

Ian McAllister：嗯，我认为如果你可以选择在产品中工作的地方，那就是真的。

If you have a choice to work on something that's part of offense, something that drives the business.

如果你可以选择从事一些有进攻性的事情，一些能够推动业务发展的事情。

And it's true that executives wake up if something drives dollars or customers or offense things and it just maybe shouldn't be this way, but a little less interested in things that maybe less than a risk that just the risk never happens, it comes to pass or a cost center that operates a little more efficiently.

确实，如果有什么事情推动了美元或客户或冒犯了事情，高管们就会醒悟，也许不应该这样，但对那些可能比风险永远不会发生、它会过去的事情更不感兴趣，或者对运作效率更高一点的成本中心感兴趣。

So that it's one lens where that might relate to your success.

因此，这是可能与您的成功相关的一个镜头。

I think also who you work for.

我也想你为谁工作。

And I think most of us don't get to choose that especially early in our career.

我认为我们大多数人都无法做出选择，尤其是在职业生涯的早期。

It either works out in your favor and which is great and that was the case for me, especially at Amazon, some of the leaders I worked with.

要么对你有利，要么对你有利，这对我来说就是这样，尤其是在亚马逊，还有一些与我共事的领导者。

But sometimes it doesn't.

但有时却不然。

But I think the more that you can suss out who you work for because then the better they are at these skills and prioritizing, one, they're just going to be a better teacher and a better role model to learn from.

但我认为你越能弄清楚你为谁工作，因为他们在这些技能和优先考虑方面就越好，第一，他们只会成为更好的老师和更好的学习榜样。

So I think that's an important thing to think about in any kind of job change.

所以我认为，在任何类型的工作变动中，这一点都是需要考虑的重要事情。

Lenny: To close the loop on this piece for more senior PMs, the skills to focus on, you said, thinking big, building trust and driving impact.

Lenny：为了让更多的高级产品经理在这件事上形成循环，需要关注你所说的大局观、建立信任和推动影响力的技能。

I'll put you on the spot.

我会把你放在原地。

I'll give you two options, two directions to go with this.

我会给你两个选择，两个方向。

One is if you want to get better at each of these three things, do you have any one thing someone could do or what does great look like for thinking big or building trust or driving impact?

一是，如果你想在这三件事中每一件事都做得更好，你是否有人可以做一件事，或者什么是伟大的想法，以实现大局观、建立信任或推动影响力？

Those are two options.

这是两个选择。

Ian McAllister: That was six questions there Lenny.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：莱尼有六个问题。

Let me see here what I'm answering.

让我看看我在回答什么。

Well, I think the think big one is interesting and one way to think about thinking big, especially as you grow in your career is most people operate within a box.

嗯，我认为“大局观”很有趣，也是一种思考“大局观”的方式，尤其是当你在职业生涯中成长时，大多数人都在一个盒子里运作。

There's a box of there's product management and these are the things that product managers do.

有一个盒子是产品管理，这些是产品经理所做的事情。

And you basically build a roadmap and you prioritize features and you work with eng.

你基本上构建了一个路线图，确定了功能的优先级，然后与工程师一起工作。

And so that might be the typical kind of product scope and tech.

这可能是典型的产品范围和技术。

Most of my roles were ones where I was kind of a GM but a really product focused GM and so I naturally found myself taking a much wider view of what product is across disciplines.

我的大部分角色都是总经理，但实际上是一个以产品为中心的总经理，所以我自然地发现自己对跨学科的产品有更广泛的看法。

And I was lucky enough that I had engineering teams and marketers and analysts and other folks and so that helped me.

我很幸运，我有工程团队、营销人员、分析师和其他人，这对我很有帮助。

But I think as a PM you can still do that, even if those functions don't report to you, is take that really wide view of what success for your product is and not have the blinders on its product or tech.

但我认为，作为一名产品经理，即使这些职能不向你报告，你仍然可以做到这一点，那就是对你的产品的成功是什么有一个真正广泛的看法，而不是对其产品或技术视而不见。

Ian McAllister: It's anything.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：什么都可以。

It's anything that influences the success and your customers' success or anything else.

它是影响成功和客户成功或其他任何事物的任何事物。

And it just means, you don't own marketing or you don't own this other function, but you own it until you find somebody else to own it.

这只是意味着，你不拥有营销或你不拥有其他功能，但你拥有它，直到你找到其他人拥有它。

And so that's not necessarily thinking big in terms of scale or whatever, but in terms of how you think about your role as a PM and what your ownership responsibility is.

因此，这不一定是在规模或其他方面考虑大问题，而是考虑你如何看待你作为产品经理的角色以及你的所有权责任是什么。

And so I think just the more that you ...

所以我认为你越...

You don't want to get over your skis as a PM and then you're trying to change your CFO's mind about something necessarily.

作为产品经理，你不想克服自己的困难，然后又试图改变首席财务官对某些事情的看法。

But the more you grow, that you have to increasingly do that and find the constraints or barriers to your success or your product success and knock them down no matter what they are.

但你成长得越多，你就必须越来越多地这样做，找到你的成功或你的产品成功的限制或障碍，并将它们击倒，无论它们是什么。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

It makes me think about just the advice of think like an owner, think beyond just your one little bubble, think about the broader business outside of the one little product you might be working on.

它让我思考像所有者一样思考的建议，超越你的一个小泡沫，思考你可能正在开发的一个小产品之外的更广泛的业务。

So that's great advice.

所以这是很好的建议。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Assembly AI.

Lenny：本集由 Assembly AI 为您带来。

If you're looking to build powerful AI powered features in your audio or video products, then you need to know about Assembly AI.

如果您希望在音频或视频产品中构建强大的 AI 驱动功能，那么您需要了解 Assembly AI。

Assembly AI is the API platform for state-of-the-art AI models that thousands of product led growth companies like Spotify, Loom and CallRail are using to infuse AI into their products.

Assembly AI 是最先进的人工智能模型的 API 平台，Spotify、Loom 和 CallRail 等数千家以产品为主导的成长型公司正在使用该平台将人工智能融入到他们的产品中。

With simple APIs, developers and PMs can get access to powerful AI models for transcription, summarization and dozens of other tasks that are fast, secure and production ready.

通过简单的 API，开发人员和产品经理可以访问功能强大的 AI 模型，以进行转录、摘要和其他数十项快速、安全且可投入生产的任务。

All of their models are researched and trained in house and continuously updated by their team of AI experts, which for a PM, makes it easy to build and ship new AI powered features.

他们的所有模型都经过内部研究和训练，并由他们的人工智能专家团队不断更新，这对于产品经理来说，可以轻松构建和发布新的人工智能功能。

Product teams at startups and enterprises are using assembly AI to automatically transcribe and summarize phone calls and virtual meetings, detect topics and podcasts, pinpoint when sensitive content is spoken, redact PII from audio videos and way more.

初创公司和企业的产品团队正在使用装配人工智能来自动转录和总结电话和虚拟会议、检测主题和播客、查明何时说出敏感内容、从音频视频中编辑 PII 等等。

Visit assemblyai.com to try Assembly AI's API for free and start testing their models in their no code playground.

访问 assemblyai.com 免费试用 Assembly AI 的 API，并开始在无代码游乐场中测试他们的模型。

That's assemblyai.com.

那是 assemblyai.com。

Lenny: Before we move on to the working backwards piece, which I'm excited to get into, is there anything else you want to share on this thread?

莱尼：在我们继续讨论向后工作的部分之前，我很高兴能进入这个部分，您还有什么想在这个帖子上分享的吗？

Ian McAllister: I might just talk about earn trust because this is one that I didn't put in there initially and I honestly don't think that I recognized the importance of it early on in my career or even in the middle of my career and it's been in the last couple years that I really understood the importance of it.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我可能只是谈论赢得信任，因为这是我最初没有放在那里的一个，老实说，我认为我在职业生涯早期甚至职业生涯中期都没有认识到它的重要性，直到最近几年我才真正理解它的重要性。

My wife Sarah is a product manager in AWS and so as I've mentored her a little bit in her career and I've seen how this is really a superpower for her, it really made me reflect like, what are the things I could have done better in different roles to earn trust more?

我的妻子 Sarah 是 AWS 的一名产品经理，我在她的职业生涯中对她进行了一些指导，并且我看到这对她来说确实是一种超能力，这确实让我反思，在不同的角色中，我可以在哪些方面做得更好，以赢得更多信任？

And it's not just the basic things like to be honest and tell two different people the same thing versus different things.

这不仅仅是诚实地告诉两个不同的人相同的事情和不同的事情等基本事情。

I think it's trying to really understand, work backwards from that person and what are their goals and what are their organization's goals and honestly spend the time and the energy to try to get to alignment in the same place.

我认为它试图真正理解，从那个人开始向后工作，他们的目标是什么，他们组织的目标是什么，并诚实地花时间和精力尝试在同一个地方保持一致。

Ian McAllister: And be willing, not just bullheaded, which I might have been earlier in my career, maybe still to many people, but charging forth what do I think's right but taking some more time to try to forge an alliance with someone because if you do that you're ultimately going to be more successful.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：要心甘情愿，不仅仅是固执己见，在我职业生涯的早期，也许仍然对很多人来说，而是要提出我认为正确的事情，但要花更多时间尝试与某人建立联盟，因为如果你这样做，你最终会更加成功。

So that was just one that I was probably slow to recognize the importance of and I'm trying to catch up now.

所以这只是我可能很慢地认识到其重要性的一个，而我现在正在努力赶上。

Lenny: Is there a story that comes to mind where you look back and I should have earned trust there or I broke some trust here that you'd be willing to share?

莱尼：当你回顾过去时，有没有一个故事会浮现在你的脑海中，我应该在那里赢得信任，或者我在这里打破了一些信任，你愿意分享？

Ian McAllister: When I was working with you and the team at Airbnb, I think this is one where Joebot brought me on to help build out the customer support technology platform maybe more how Amazon would do it.

Ian McAllister：当我与您和 Airbnb 团队合作时，我认为 Joebot 让我来帮助构建客户支持技术平台，也许更多的是亚马逊的做法。

To maintain a high level of quality but to become more efficient as well and to reduce the cost so that Airbnb wouldn't have to scale customer support this to the same degree the business was scaling.

保持高水平的质量，同时提高效率并降低成本，这样 Airbnb 就不必像业务规模那样扩大客户支持规模。

And so trying to build a new team and develop and I was pretty heads down doing it the way I thought it should be done and working with the team there in terms of let's get a strong analytics framework.

因此，试图建立一个新的团队并进行开发，我非常埋头按照我认为应该完成的方式去做，并与那里的团队合作，让我们建立一个强大的分析框架。

Let's measure all these things and really understand what's going on at the data level and then let's use the same prioritization muscles that had made me successful at Amazon to prioritize things that were best worked backwards.

让我们衡量所有这些事情，真正了解数据层面上发生的事情，然后让我们使用使我在亚马逊取得成功的相同优先级能力来优先考虑那些最好向后工作的事情。

Ian McAllister: And I think that what I didn't do as much as I should have is obviously really partnering with the customer support leadership team as well.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我认为我显然没有真正与客户支持领导团队合作。

That was something where I think in some ways it felt like we were in alignment and getting on stage together and stuff, but it turned out I maybe hadn't spent as much time and effort on that as I thought to build that true support there such that that leader would rally the organization around it as well and we'd be marching in the same beat.

我认为，在某些方面，我们感觉我们是一致的，一起登上舞台之类的，但事实证明，我可能没有像我想象的那样花费那么多时间和精力，在那里建立真正的支持，这样领导者也会将组织团结起来，让我们以同样的节奏前进。

And so that was something that I would reflect.

这就是我要反思的事情。

Now, I think the team did amazing things and Shirley really carrying the torch there in the entire team and so accomplished a lot.

现在，我认为团队做了令人惊叹的事情，雪莉确实在整个团队中传递着火炬，因此取得了很多成就。

But that was a learning about ...

但这是关于……的学习。

Going back, I probably would've spent more time and really tried to do even more on that.

如果回去的话，我可能会花更多的时间，并且真的尝试在这方面做更多的事情。

Lenny: Thanks for sharing that.

莱尼：谢谢你的分享。

I never knew that story.

我从来不知道那个故事。

And it sounds like the takeaway there is maybe don't take for granted the leadership team, the team that'll actually be using the product.

听起来，也许不要认为领导团队、实际使用该产品的团队是理所当然的。

Is that a roughly way to think about it?

这是一个粗略的思考方式吗？

Ian McAllister: Well I would say that if you have a certain approach you may be believe it's the right one and it may be the right one, but if you don't build the support and the relationships that they're going to help carry that out and execute on that strategy, it may not get executed as well as you think it should be.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我想说，如果你有某种方法，你可能会相信它是正确的，而且可能是正确的，但如果你不建立支持和关系，他们将帮助实施和执行该策略，那么它可能不会像你认为的那样得到执行。

And so that's an important part of success.

所以这是成功的重要组成部分。

It's a risk that you have to mitigate.

这是您必须减轻的风险。

And trying to earn trust and to do it that way is a way to mitigate that risk that the right product and the right direction and the right strategy, it may not land if you don't have that support that you need.

尝试赢得信任并以这种方式做到这一点是减轻风险的一种方法，如果您没有所需的支持，正确的产品、正确的方向和正确的策略可能无法落地。

And so that I think was my learning.

所以我认为这就是我的学习。

Lenny: What better way to learn a lesson than get some wrong and then you never forget it again.

莱尼：有什么比犯错然后就再也不会忘记更好的吸取教训的方法了。

Ian McAllister: You could call it getting wrong.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：你可以称之为错误。

Just think of something I could have done better.

想想我可以做得更好的事情。

And just that same continuous improvement mindset.

以及同样的持续改进心态。

It's to everything, every role, every experience, every project, every communication.

它适用于一切、每一个角色、每一次经历、每一个项目、每一次沟通。

And if you build that muscle to try to do it better the next time and also just the try to be a little self aware about what could have gone better, then I think it's a really good muscle to build.

如果你锻炼肌肉是为了下次做得更好，并且只是尝试对哪些方面可以做得更好，那么我认为这是一块非常值得锻炼的肌肉。

Lenny: This is a good segue to the second area of where our chat is going to go, which is Amazon and things you've learned about just the working backwards process.

莱尼：这是我们聊天将要讨论的第二个领域的一个很好的延续，即亚马逊以及您所了解的有关逆向工作过程的内容。

How many years did you say you worked at Amazon total?

您说您在亚马逊总共工作了多少年？

Lenny: 12 years.

莱尼：12年。

It feels like everyone that worked at Amazon is 10 years or more.

感觉每个在亚马逊工作的人都工作了10年或更长。

It's these large numbers.

就是这些大数字。

So they must be doing something right and I don't know.

所以他们一定在做正确的事情，但我不知道。

What do you think that is actually?

你认为那实际上是什么？

Why do people stay there so long?

为什么人们会在那里呆那么久？

It's amazing.

太棒了。

Ian McAllister: What's interesting about Amazon, and it's changed over time, is that I think pretty quickly whether you're a fit for it or not.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：亚马逊的有趣之处在于，随着时间的推移，它发生了变化，我很快就会判断你是否适合它。

And it can be kind of a crucible and a little spartan.

它可以是一种严峻的考验，而且有点斯巴达式的。

And it just clicked with me though because I'm kind of a structured thinker and right brain.

但这对我来说很有吸引力，因为我是一个结构化思考者和右脑。

And so this idea that hey, I could have this business and then figure out one metric or fitness function that determines success and then my job is to make that number go up and to the right.

所以这个想法是，嘿，我可以拥有这项业务，然后找出一个决定成功的指标或适应度函数，然后我的工作就是使这个数字上升并向右。

That kind of fit with me.

那种感觉很适合我。

And then I rewired my brain probably over the first 10 years around this concept and I just felt like I was learning, I was not only working with smart people that were driven, which was true at Microsoft as well, but there was kind of this DNA in the organization and this wiring that I thought was really effective and it just kind of clicked with me.

然后，在最初的 10 年里，我围绕这个概念重新构建了我的大脑，我只是觉得我在学习，我不仅与那些有动力的聪明人一起工作，这在微软也是如此，而且组织中有这种 DNA，我认为这种连接非常有效，它对我来说很合身​​。

Ian McAllister: And so I molded myself to the environment and at every step of the way I felt like I was learning and growing and one of the benefits for me is you get a chance to learn from so many other people in these different settings.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：所以我塑造了自己以适应环境，在每一步我都感觉自己在学习和成长，对我来说的好处之一就是你有机会向这些不同环境中的许多其他人学习。

You get the chance to read documents that make you learn more so than probably a slide deck.

您有机会阅读比幻灯片更能让您学到更多的文档。

You get a chance to be in weekly business reviews with really smart people and learn from that.

您有机会与真正聪明的人一起参加每周的业务回顾，并从中学习。

Not just learn from your own experience but from everyone else in that room.

不仅要从自己的经验中学习，还要向房间里的其他人学习。

So I was just a sponge and so much learning happening that I think propelled my career.

所以我只是一块海绵，发生了如此多的学习，我认为推动了我的职业生涯。

And so that was why, especially the first 10 years, that it was so fantastic of just growing and feeling yourself build these new muscles and develop these new tools and I loved it.

这就是为什么，尤其是前十年，成长并感觉自己建立了这些新肌肉并开发了这些新工具真是太棒了，我喜欢它。

So that was why I stayed so long and obviously Airbnb then, it was the time to try something new, which was a great experience and kind of a test.

这就是我在 Airbnb 呆了这么久的原因，显然是时候尝试一些新的东西了，这是一次很棒的经历，也是一种考验。

I was in Seattle and the company was in San Francisco and spending three days on a road each week was a good learning and ultimately a reason to come back and be Seattle based.

我在西雅图，公司在旧金山，每周在路上度过三天是一次很好的学习，也是最终回到西雅图的原因。

But then I chose Amazon again because it was still a great place and I thought I could continue to learn.

但后来我再次选择了亚马逊，因为它仍然是一个很棒的地方，而且我认为我可以继续学习。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I was going to mention they drew you back in.

我想说的是他们把你吸引回来了。

So yeah, that's pretty rare.

是的，这是非常罕见的。

What did you learn from folks like Jeff Bezos and Jeff Wilke about building product leadership, company building?

关于建立产品领导力和公司建设，你从杰夫·贝佐斯和杰夫·威尔克等人身上学到了什么？

What's stuck with you working with folks like?

和这样的人一起工作有什么困扰吗？

Ian McAllister: I would say two very different people but complimented themselves so well.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我想说的是两个截然不同的人，但他们对自己的评价非常好。

I didn't have hundreds of meetings with Jeff Bezos while I was there, but I did have a chance, especially in the development of Amazon Smile and then early when I started the social team to have some of those meetings where I wrote the doc and it was Jeff and 10 other people reviewing.

我在那儿的时候并没有与 Jeff Bezos 进行数百次会议，但我确实有机会，特别是在 Amazon Smile 的开发过程中，以及在我组建社交团队的早期，我召开了一些会议，我在这些会议上撰写了文档，Jeff 和其他 10 个人在审阅。

The process of doing, even before hitting on Amazon Smile, it was really kind of a innovation process I guess you could call it, where we had a goal in mind to increase customers' loyalty to Amazon, their direct traffic loyalty, not in the way Prime did, which is a paid program, but to try to come up with another program or way in which customers might start their shopping on Amazon instead of elsewhere.

这个过程，甚至在推出 Amazon Smile 之前，我想你可以称之为创新过程，我们的目标是提高客户对亚马逊的忠诚度，他们的直接流量忠诚度，不是像 Prime 那样，这是一个付费项目，而是尝试想出另一种计划或方式，让客户可以在亚马逊上开始购物，而不是在其他地方。

And so I was running the gifting business.

所以我开始经营礼品业务。

I moved over to the traffic org to try to come up with a new program with no team or anything.

我转到交通组织，尝试在没有团队或任何其他东西的情况下提出一个新计划。

Ian McAllister: And then I would meet with Jeff Bezos and Wilke and others every couple months and I would profile a couple different options and use the working backwards process and we'd review some facts.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：然后我每隔几个月就会与杰夫·贝佐斯、威尔克和其他人会面，我会介绍几个不同的选择，并使用逆向工作流程，我们会回顾一些事实。

And so there was a bunch of learnings throughout that process.

因此，在整个过程中我们学到了很多东西。

One, I found Jeff to be super encouraging.

第一，我发现杰夫非常鼓舞人心。

And each time we'd leave one of those meetings, we maybe didn't find the thing in that meeting.

每次我们离开其中一个会议时，我们可能都没有在那次会议中找到东西。

We'd talk about it and brainstorm a little bit, but he would always leave and be encouraging and with a quote.

我们会讨论这个问题并进行一些头脑风暴，但他总是会离开并引用一段话来鼓励我们。

One time he was like, "Remember, this process doesn't have to be efficient because the prerequisite for efficiency is knowing where you're going." And then he'd leave the room and whatever.

有一次他说，“记住，这个过程不一定要高效，因为高效的先决条件是知道你要去哪里。”然后他就会离开房间什么的。

So I found the rhetoric around Jeff or blowing up or whatever, I didn't find any of that and I found him to be super encouraging and he found all these times to help train me in the working backwards process.

所以我发现围绕杰夫的言论或者爆炸或者其他什么，我没有发现任何这些，我发现他非常鼓舞人心，他发现所有这些时间都在帮助训练我逆向工作的过程。

Ian McAllister: There was a time when I came with a press release for a concept and it didn't have a problem paragraph.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：曾经有一段时间，我带来了一个概念的新闻稿，但它没有问题段落。

I'd skipped that.

我跳过了。

And he reviewed it and so forth and he was like, "You know what, maybe if you don't have a problem paragraph, there's not really a problem." And so it was kind of a little lesson to me like, "Yeah, maybe that is why I did it.

他回顾了它等等，他说，“你知道吗，也许如果你没有问题段落，那就不是真正的问题。”所以这对我来说是一个小教训，“是的，也许这就是我这样做的原因。

I wasn't really working backwards, I kind of had the solution in mind and so I'd skipped over that part." So that was one just very specific learning about the process from Jeff.

我并没有真正倒退，我心里已经有了解决方案，所以我跳过了那部分。”所以这只是从杰夫那里非常具体地了解这一过程。

So Jeff Wilke, I probably learned more from Wilke just because I had more exposure over my time there.

所以杰夫威尔克，我可能从威尔克那里学到了更多，因为我在那里的时间有更多的接触。

At one point he was my skip level.

一度他是我的越级。

And I have such tremendous respect for Wilke or Jaw as he was called internally because he was sort of the consummate operator.

我非常尊重威尔克（Wilke）或贾（Jaw），因为他是一位完美的操作员，因为他在内部被称为“Jaw”。

Ian McAllister: This muscle that I think you learn working at Amazon about being an operator, whether you're ...

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我认为你在亚马逊工作时学到的这种肌肉是作为一名操作员，无论你是......

You're not in operations, but any part of the business that I think came from him.

你不参与运营，但我认为业务的任何部分都来自他。

And I think it was due to him that Amazon developed that muscle.

我认为正是因为他，亚马逊才发展出了这种力量。

And I think it's one way that separates some Amazon PMs from people who haven't worked there in that environment and that continuous improvement mindset.

我认为这是将一些亚马逊产品经理与那些没有在那种环境和持续改进心态下工作过的人区分开来的一种方式。

That's so important.

这非常重要。

And one of the forums that was a great learning was the WBR or Weekly Business Review.

WBR（每周商业评论）是值得学习的论坛之一。

Or later called Consumer Business Review.

或者后来称为《消费者商业评论》。

So this was a forum where Jeff would lead the meeting.

所以这是杰夫将主持会议的论坛。

It would be a series of metrics for different parts of the business.

这将是针对业务不同部分的一系列指标。

Everywhere from fulfillment to customer support, to traffic to category teams to programs.

从履行到客户支持，再到类别团队和项目的流量，无处不在。

And I would present on Amazon Smile there.

我会在那里展示亚马逊微笑。

And the way he would run that meeting and enable you to get through a metrics meeting for the entire North American retail business in one hour.

以及他主持会议的方式，使您能够在一小时内完成整个北美零售业务的指标会议。

Ian McAllister: And the way he ran that meeting would lead all those leaders to build these muscles because you wanted to be prepared to speak to the variances or trends in your business in a key metric and know your business and know what you were doing based on that thing.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：他主持会议的方式将引导所有领导者增强这些力量，因为你想准备好在关键指标上谈论你的业务中的差异或趋势，并了解你的业务并知道你在做什么。

And so just this hour a week of probing and asking questions and everyone ...

因此，每周只有这个小时进行探索和提问，每个人......

There might be a hundred people in that room prepared to answer questions about your business.

那个房间里可能有一百个人准备回答有关您的业务的问题。

And it had this cascading effect that not only was I or the leaders there on the spot having to answer a question and being prepared, but then I would do the same thing with my team, et cetera.

它产生了连锁效应，不仅我或现场的领导者必须回答问题并做好准备，而且我也会和我的团队一起做同样的事情，等等。

And so I was trying to build those muscles in my team such that they could bring their insights and understanding and actions on things in this cascading effect.

因此，我试图在我的团队中建立这些力量，以便他们能够在这种级联效应中对事物提出自己的见解、理解和行动。

So that was a mechanism, which is another really big thing at Amazon that led to all these amazing behaviors.

这就是一种机制，这是亚马逊的另一件大事，它导致了所有这些令人惊奇的行为。

Ian McAllister: And I think a lot of those mechanisms came from Jeff Wilke or he created an environment where they would be developed throughout the organization and then propagated.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我认为很多机制来自杰夫·威尔克，或者他创建了一个环境，在整个组织中开发这些机制，然后进行传播。

And so that was one thing, just that operational mindset and rigor that being a product leader is not just about building new things, it's about how well you run what you've already built.

所以这是一回事，作为产品领导者的运营思维和严谨性不仅仅在于构建新事物，还在于你如何很好地运行已经构建的东西。

And if you're really paying attention to the product that you operate, it will give you ideas for things you could do to double down on something that's happening well or to prevent something bad happening.

如果你真正关注你所运营的产品，它会给你一些想法，告诉你可以采取哪些措施来加倍努力，或者防止不好的事情发生。

And I think that's been a very key reason for Amazon's scale.

我认为这是亚马逊规模扩大的一个非常关键的原因。

Another thing I really respect about Jeff Wilke, and I think Doug Harrington has some of this as well, is the notion of a little bit of tough love.

我真正尊重杰夫·威尔克的另一件事是，有一点严厉的爱，我认为道格·哈林顿也有一些这一点。

And I think that's important and that neither were assholes, but sometimes, and especially Wilke, you need to get that look kind of like your dad might look over his glasses at you and be like, "Hey."

我认为这很重要，而且两者都不是混蛋，但有时，尤其是威尔克，你需要看起来像你的父亲可能会透过眼镜看着你，然后说，“嘿。”

Ian McAllister: And so I think that was kind of the vibe that you would get.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：所以我认为这就是你会得到的氛围。

It was professional, it was respectful, but sometimes everyone needs a little kick in the ass and I think that was something, but it almost builds more respect from him and just incredible leaderly behavior, which I really respect and I try to model and I try to do the same because I respected it so much.

这是专业的，是尊重的，但有时每个人都需要一点点踢屁股，我认为这很重要，但这几乎让他获得了更多的尊重，以及令人难以置信的领导行为，我真的很尊重，我尝试模仿，我尝试做同样的事情，因为我非常尊重它。

And then I guess the last attribute of Wilke, which I really saw was teaching.

然后我想威尔克的最后一个属性，我真正看到的是教学。

And it wasn't just saying this is the right thing or this is what my decision is in a meeting, but teaching the why and the pattern, the mental model that informs him to think this is the right thing.

这不仅仅是说这是正确的事情或者这是我在会议上的决定，而是教导他原因和模式，告诉他这是正确的事情的心理模型。

And so I think he was just great at teaching, taking a moment.

所以我认为他在教学方面非常出色，花点时间。

It might just take 10 seconds in a meeting to teach.

会议上的教学可能只需要 10 秒钟。

Ian McAllister: And that's something that I've forgotten at different parts of my career, especially as you get more experienced and you know the right decision to do and you know what you want, whatever, that may be the right thing, but I think you'll have a lot more lasting effect if you could abstract it to a degree and teach the lesson.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：这是我在职业生涯的不同阶段忘记的事情，特别是当你变得更有经验，你知道要做的正确决定，你知道你想要什么，无论如何，这可能是正确的事情，但我认为如果你能将其抽象到一定程度并教授课程，你将会产生更持久的影响。

Because then that person will hopefully learn the lesson and can apply it to a bunch of future situations and also understand the why more.

因为这样那个人就有希望吸取教训，并将其应用到未来的一系列情况中，并更多地理解原因。

And it helps them sometimes disagree and commit more so than just being given prescriptive advice.

有时，这比仅仅提供规定性建议更能帮助他们提出不同意见并做出承诺。

Lenny: Sounds like it must have been an incredible experience learning from these two.

莱尼：听起来向这两个人学习一定是一次令人难以置信的经历。

Thanks for sharing all that.

感谢您分享这一切。

I want to get to the working backwards stuff.

我想谈谈逆向工作的内容。

I feel like we've talked about this a lot.

我觉得我们已经讨论过很多次了。

We've talked about this on other podcasts with other guests.

我们已经在其他播客上与其他嘉宾讨论过这个问题。

I feel like people understand the general idea.

我觉得人们理解总体想法。

Yeah, Amazon works backwards.

是的，亚马逊是逆向运作的。

They write a PR.

他们写了一份公关。

Maybe there's a six pager thing they do.

也许他们会做六寻呼机的事情。

But I feel like there's not a lot of, here's how actually do this thing.

但我觉得没有很多，这就是实际如何做这件事。

And so just to spend a little time on this, when you see teams trying to work backwards and be like, "Let's work backwards.

因此，只要花一点时间在这上面，当你看到团队试图逆向工作时，就会说：“让我们逆向工作吧。

We're going to be like Amazon.", what do you find they do wrong when they're actually trying to implement this idea of working backwards?

我们将像亚马逊一样。”，当他们真正尝试实施逆向工作的想法时，你发现他们做错了什么？

What's the most common mistake do you find?

您发现最常见的错误是什么？

Ian McAllister: Well, working backwards is all about the problem and starting there and obsessing about the problem and being guided by it to then go into the solution.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：嗯，逆向工作就是从问题开始，着迷于问题，并在问题的指导下找到解决方案。

So when teams that do it wrong is they don't do that.

因此，当团队做错事时，他们就不会这样做。

They don't work backwards.

他们不会倒退。

They have something they want to build.

他们有自己想要建造的东西。

These things look similar.

这些东西看起来很相似。

These two technologies or whatever.

这两种技术或者其他什么。

We could combine them and then do this.

我们可以将它们结合起来然后这样做。

And if you say we could and it's not grounded in a customer or customer's problem, you're not working backwards.

如果你说我们可以，而且这不是基于客户或客户的问题，那么你就不是在倒退。

And then you may use "the working backwards process", but you already have the solution.

然后你可以使用“向后工作过程”，但你已经有了解决方案。

And so you're adding the problem after the solution.

所以你在解决方案之后添加问题。

You're retrofitting the problem, retrofitting the customer.

你正在改造问题，改造客户。

And so that I think is the number one thing is that they don't get the importance of truly starting with the problem that you're trying to solve and being faithful to that working backwards from the problem.

所以我认为第一件事是他们没有意识到真正从你试图解决的问题开始并忠实于从问题开始向后工作的重要性。

Ian McAllister: When I first started at Amazon and community, we had this business of automated merchandising using community content, and that was the core thing we were doing is to grow that.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：当我刚开始在亚马逊和社区工作时，我们开展了利用社区内容进行自动化销售的业务，而我们所做的核心事情就是发展这一业务。

But there was this Jeff idea that a team was super excited about.

但杰夫的这个想法让整个团队都非常兴奋。

Because I think in some meeting he'd kind of sketched it out or whatever.

因为我认为在某些会议上他已经勾画出了它的草图或者其他什么。

And so that there was already all this momentum to build this thing that was actually a Jeff project, but I should have known at the time, in hindsight I do, because the name they had for this project was ASIN to ASIN linking.

因此，已经有足够的动力来构建这个实际上是 Jeff 项目的东西，但我当时应该知道，事后看来我知道，因为他们给这个项目的名称是 ASIN 到 ASIN 链接。

And ASIN was the identifier for a product on Amazon.

ASIN 是亚马逊上产品的标识符。

And so it was kind of this not working backwards idea ultimately of if you could link to products by a subjected attributes and then you could build a feature around it that allowed customers to vote on these things and then it would be kind of ...

因此，这最终是一种不倒退的想法，如果你可以通过受控属性链接到产品，然后你可以围绕它构建一个功能，允许客户对这些东西进行投票，然后这将是一种......

Ian McAllister: So in spirit, it really wasn't working backwards.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：所以从精神上来说，它确实没有倒退。

But the team was all excited and so we eventually wrote the press release and we did it.

但团队都很兴奋，所以我们最终写了新闻稿并且做到了。

And it turned out, it wasn't successful.

事实证明，它并不成功。

We ended up shutting it down later.

后来我们最终将其关闭。

And so I learned a lot, this was the first year or two at Amazon, about using the working backwards process but not really working backwards.

所以我学到了很多，这是在亚马逊的第一年或第二年，关于使用逆向工作流程，但不是真正的逆向工作。

And so that's literally, if I'm reviewing a working backwards press release or fact, or even talking with someone about a new initiative, my brain is wired now to not be able to process any information until I focus on the problem and the customer.

所以，从字面上看，如果我正在审查一份向后发布的新闻稿或事实，甚至与某人谈论一项新举措，我的大脑现在就无法处理任何信息，直到我专注于问题和客户。

And then once we start talking about that, then I can engage and literally work backwards to say, okay, how do we solve that problem?

一旦我们开始讨论这个问题，我就可以参与并从字面上向后说，好吧，我们如何解决这个问题？

And what's the most elegant way to solve it?

解决这个问题最优雅的方法是什么？

Or if there's three problems, what's number one or two or three?

或者，如果存在三个问题，那么第一、第二或第三个问题是什么？

So it's probably a gap in me that I can't process information without working backwards from the problem, but I find it to be helpful when people do that.

所以这可能是我的一个差距，如果我不从问题中逆向思考就无法处理信息，但我发现当人们这样做时它会很有帮助。

Lenny: So when people talk about working backwards, the way you're describing it is interesting where it's focused on start with the problem, which I think generally product teams try to do.

Lenny：所以当人们谈论逆向工作时，你描述它的方式很有趣，它专注于从问题开始，我认为产品团队通常会尝试这样做。

Their one pagers their PRDs often have, here's the problem we're solving, here's why it's a problem, here's how we think about ...

他们的 PRD 经常拥有单页寻呼机，这是我们正在解决的问题，这就是为什么这是一个问题，这就是我们的想法......

Is that the core of working backwards?

这是逆向工作的核心吗？

I always imagined it was the launch release and the PR thing and maybe the FAQ.

我一直以为这是发布版本和公关事宜，也许还有常见问题解答。

Working backwards at Uber and other and Airbnb, do you actually do that for every project yourself at this point?

回顾 Uber 和其他公司以及 Airbnb 的情况，您现在是否真的为每个项目都这样做了？

Ian McAllister: There's two parts of it.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：有两个部分。

One, there's the concept of working backwards from what you're trying to accomplish.

第一，有一个概念是从你想要完成的事情开始逆向工作。

And I still absolutely do that with my teams as well.

我仍然对我的团队绝对这样做。

What are we trying to accomplish for the business or accomplish for a customer and let's start there.

我们想要为业务或为客户实现什么目标，让我们从这里开始。

And if they have a problem that is interfering with their ability to be profitable for their ability, if it's a business customer or it's a customer trying to accomplish a goal, starting with that problem.

如果他们遇到的问题影响了他们盈利的能力，如果是企业客户或试图实现目标的客户，就从这个问题开始。

That's different from the working backwards mechanism, which is the press release and the FAQ, which was the mechanism that Amazon used to enforce working backwards, which I think is effective.

这与向后工作机制不同，后者是新闻稿和常见问题解答，这是亚马逊用来强制向后工作的机制，我认为这是有效的。

And I've tried to teach that and write some posts about with templates and things like that because it's a great way to start of the press release has a paragraph about the problem.

我试图教授这一点，并用模板和类似的东西写一些文章，因为这是一个很好的方式来开始新闻稿有一段关于这个问题的内容。

That's what you write.

这就是你写的。

Ian McAllister: And then you write the solution paragraph and then the customer quote.

Ian McAllister：然后你写解决方案段落，然后是客户报价。

And then the fact which is is there a legitimate plan to succeed?

那么事实是有一个合法的计划可以成功吗？

So if you don't have that muscle to work backwards already and your team, it's a great thing to try, but that's not the only mechanism that can do it.

因此，如果您和您的团队还没有足够的能力进行逆向工作，那么尝试一下是一件很棒的事情，但这并不是唯一可以做到这一点的机制。

And eventually if you do it enough and you build that muscle to work backwards, you can do it in any number of formats, whether it's something in a PRD or some other way.

最终，如果你做得足够多，并且建立了向后工作的能力，你就可以以任何数量的格式来完成它，无论是 PRD 还是其他方式。

But the key is that you don't think what we could build, you think about the problem and then the solution that solves that problem.

但关键是你不考虑我们可以构建什么，而是考虑问题，然后考虑解决该问题的解决方案。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

Okay.

好的。

So the press release is not core to it.

因此，新闻稿并不是其核心。

It's like a trick to get you to think about the problem you're solving.

这就像一个让你思考你正在解决的问题的技巧。

It's not how you plant announce it.

这不是你宣布它的方式。

Lenny: Interesting.

莱尼：有趣。

I never thought about it that way.

我从来没有这样想过。

So when you're doing this process at other places outside Amazon, say you're a product leader that's trying to ...

因此，当您在亚马逊以外的其他地方执行此流程时，假设您是一名产品领导者，正在尝试...

I want to improve the way we think about product.

我想改进我们对产品的思考方式。

What is it that you suggest they do specifically?

您建议他们具体做什么？

Is it write out, here's the problem we're solving?

写出来了吗，这就是我们要解决的问题？

Is there more to it?

还有更多吗？

What would you suggest there?

你在那里有什么建议？

Ian McAllister: If it's a blank slate, truly, you could certainly use the working backwards process like Amazon does with the internal press release and then the fact and so forth.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：如果这是一张白纸，确实，你当然可以使用逆向工作流程，就像亚马逊对内部新闻稿和事实等等所做的那样。

So that's fine.

所以没关系。

But a lot of companies have a different way they go about it.

但很多公司都有不同的处理方式。

Some companies are very much, it's slide culture and presentations and so forth.

有些公司非常多，它是幻灯片文化和演示文稿等等。

And so as a product leader you could think about what you do with your team and what you do upwards or across.

因此，作为产品负责人，您可以考虑与团队一起做什么以及向上或横向做什么。

And so you may have the latitude to use any process with your team.

因此，您可以自由地与您的团队一起使用任何流程。

And I've done that at some companies where using documents and if they're supportive of the team and they recognize the value of that, like, oh actually this is good and this is a great way to write things down on paper and to have better information content and richer discussion that oftentimes I think people will find that versus a slide with a couple bullets is not great.

我已经在一些使用文档的公司做到了这一点，如果他们支持团队并且他们认识到文档的价值，就像，哦，实际上这很好，这是一种将事情写在纸上并获得更好的信息内容和更丰富的讨论的好方法，我认为人们常常会发现与带有几个项目符号的幻灯片相比并不好。

Then you can build that muscle.

然后你就可以锻炼肌肉了。

Ian McAllister: And I've found it's a great way to teach and use those to dive deeper into product.

Ian McAllister：我发现这是一种很好的方式来教授和使用这些知识来更深入地研究产品。

But depending on the organization you're at, that may not wash to train your senior leadership to use the process you want to use.

但根据您所在的组织，这可能不足以培训您的高级领导层使用您想要使用的流程。

And so then it might be a matter of finding the opportunities to try something and saying, "Are you open to doing something this way?" A review of a doc instead of a review of a whatever.

因此，这可能是寻找机会尝试某件事并说：“你愿意这样做吗？”对文档的评论而不是对任何东西的评论。

So that's a little separate than just working backwards, but I think you just have to acknowledge the environment you're in.

所以这和逆向工作有点不同，但我认为你只需要承认你所处的环境。

And also, unless the organization has a specific format to do this.

而且，除非组织有特定的格式来执行此操作。

If it does, you probably just need to use it.

如果是这样，您可能只需要使用它。

Different leaders process information, different ways.

不同的领导者处理信息的方式不同。

You may find one format's effective with your leader, but another one to educate a broader organization.

您可能会发现一种形式对您的领导者有效，但另一种形式可以教育更广泛的组织。

But it's very company specific.

但这是公司特定的。

So despite what I might want to do, I've just got to recognize that I have more leverage down with my team versus up or across.

因此，无论我想做什么，我都必须认识到，与向上或横向相比，我对团队的向下影响力更大。

Lenny: Is there a template that you use consistently?

Lenny：有没有一个你一直使用的模板？

Is that something that you've published of how to frame the problem, how to frame all these other elements?

您是否已经发布了如何构建问题、如何构建所有其他元素的内容？

Ian McAllister: I have shared posts on, I know for sure LinkedIn and I probably should put it on the newsletter, on my newsletter, that's a working backwards template and some posts about how to do the process or tips on how Amazon does the process.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我在 LinkedIn 上分享过帖子，我确信我知道，我可能应该把它放在时事通讯上，在我的时事通讯上，这是一个向后工作的模板，还有一些关于如何执行该流程的帖子或有关亚马逊如何执行该流程的提示。

And so I'll make sure to put those up on my newsletter as well.

因此，我也会确保将这些内容放在我的时事通讯中。

And the template's free.

而且模板是免费的。

Obviously anyone could just copy it and grab it.

显然任何人都可以复制它并抓住它。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

We'll link to that in show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到该内容。

Definitely send that to me after we wrap this thing.

我们包装完这个东西后一定要把它寄给我。

And I was going to ask, does Amazon work backwards on every product they work on/do you suggest working backwards in every feature and product?

我想问，亚马逊是否会在他们开发的每一个产品上都向后工作/你是否建议在每一个功能和产品上都向后工作？

Ian McAllister: I think there's some scale below which it doesn't probably make sense to do this process because there's a little bit of overhead to it.

Ian McAllister：我认为，在一定规模以下，执行此过程可能没有意义，因为会产生一点开销。

But I think if it's a new product, absolutely.

但我认为如果这是一个新产品，绝对是这样。

And I'm sure there's some at Amazon that don't use the process, but in general that was the way and often enforced that you need a working backwards review.

我确信亚马逊有些人不使用该流程，但总的来说，这是一种方式，并且经常强制要求您需要进行向后审查。

Ideally that would happen at the outset, but sometimes it would be added later.

理想情况下，这应该在一开始就发生，但有时会在以后添加。

And yeah, I think it's a great thing whether you use the mechanism.

是的，我认为无论你使用这个机制都是一件很棒的事情。

Again, it's a great template to start with and use if you have the flexibility to, but I think it's also possible just to have the spirit and to try to be true to the spirit of working backwards from what you're trying to do for customers and what problem.

再说一遍，如果您有灵活性，那么它是一个很好的开始和使用模板，但我认为也可以只拥有精神并尝试忠于从您试图为客户做的事情和问题中逆向工作的精神。

That's the most important thing.

这是最重要的事情。

The template is just a mechanism to help ensure that happens.

模板只是一种帮助确保这种情况发生的机制。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

You mentioned a review.

你提到了评论。

What is that?

那是什么？

Working backwards review?

向后审查？

Ian McAllister: Well that would just be a meeting with leadership or other folks to review the concept, review the press release, review the FAQ and ask questions.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：嗯，这只是与领导层或其他人举行会议，审查概念、审查新闻稿、审查常见问题解答并提出问题。

And in some cases that would be the gate to approving it.

在某些情况下，这将是批准它的大门。

That was the case with me and Bezos before we went off and built the team and launched Amazon Smile is I would do these reviews about different concepts and that was the one that we green lit.

在我们组建团队并推出 Amazon Smile 之前，我和贝佐斯的情况就是这样，我会对不同的概念进行这些评论，这就是我们批准的概念。

I mean that's often the case.

我的意思是，情况经常如此。

It's also just a great way to educate other people about what you're trying to accomplish.

It's also just a great way to educate other people about what you're trying to accomplish.

Ground them in the customer problem and solution.

Ground them in the customer problem and solution.

And the FAQ is a whole nother concept.

常见问题解答完全是另一个概念。

It's about the legitimate plan to succeed.

这是关于成功的合法计划。

One other thing that I use, I got a chance to have lunch with Jeff Bezos.

One other thing that I use, I got a chance to have lunch with Jeff Bezos.

It was probably back in 2008 or something like this.

大概是在 2008 年或者类似的时候。

And I asked him, "What's your criteria for investing in something new?"

And I asked him, "What's your criteria for investing in something new?"

Ian McAllister: And he said, "Well it's three things.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：他说：“这是三件事。

One, is it a big idea?

一，这是一个伟大的想法吗？

And then second, is it something we should be doing?" So if maybe you have an idea, if you have this new way to extract oil from shale, is it a big idea?

其次，这是我们应该做的事情吗？” So if maybe you have an idea, if you have this new way to extract oil from shale, is it a big idea?

Yeah, probably could be a big idea.

是的，可能是一个好主意。

Is it something Amazon should be doing?

这是亚马逊应该做的事情吗？

Probably not.

可能不会。

And the third test, is there a legitimate plan to succeed?

第三个测试，是否有一个合法的计划可以成功？

And you got to have all three of those things.

你必须拥有这三样东西。

And I think the FAQ part of the working backwards process is that early stage legitimate test of whether this thing has a plan.

And I think the FAQ part of the working backwards process is that early stage legitimate test of whether this thing has a plan.

Because you could have this internal press release or big idea or big idea for a solution, but the FAQ basically says, okay, I've thought through the internal components or the finances or the key technical hurdles or whatever.

因为你可能有这个内部新闻稿或解决方案的大想法或大想法，但常见问题解答基本上说，好吧，我已经考虑了内部组件或财务或关键技术障碍或其他什么。

And so that's one that's not written about as much, how to do the FAQ, but I think it's another way to build trust that you've been thoughtful enough given the stage of the product to deserve the resources or deserve to move forward with it.

因此，关于如何进行常见问题解答的内容并没有写得太多，但我认为这是建立信任的另一种方式，即考虑到产品所处的阶段，您已经考虑得足够周到，值得资源或值得继续推进。

Lenny: That's awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

I feel like most PMs listening to this are going to be like, "I always start with a problem.

我觉得大多数产品经理听到这个都会说，“我总是从一个问题开始。

I'm always problem focused so I'm working backwards.

我总是以问题为中心，所以我会逆向工作。

So I'm good." Other signs of just like, no, you're not.

所以我很好。”其他迹象表明，不，你不是。

You think you are but you're probably not doing this well.

You think you are but you're probably not doing this well.

Is there a symptom of you're not actually doing this correctly?

Is there a symptom of you're not actually doing this correctly?

Ian McAllister: The most common thing that I see that tips me off is when they talk about something, there's different pieces in the pantry and we have these ingredients, we could put them together, we could add these two things together and make a meal out of it.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我看到最让我感动的事情是，当他们谈论某件事时，食品储藏室里有不同的东西，我们有这些原料，我们可以把它们放在一起，我们可以将这两种东西加在一起，然后用它来做一顿饭。

And so it might be a technology, it might be a service, it might be two different things or the building blocks are there and what's enabled if you add these two building blocks together is something.

因此，它可能是一项技术，它可能是一项服务，它可能是两个不同的东西，或者构建块就在那里，如果你将这两个构建块添加在一起，就会启用什么。

But that's not really working backwards.

但这并不是真正的倒退。

It may be true that there's some leverage or some benefit from the company having these technologies or assets, but that to me is often the first step that these two things look similar.

拥有这些技术或资产的公司可能确实有一些影响力或一些好处，但对我来说，这通常是这两件事看起来相似的第一步。

We combine them and it's all goodness in this new thing.

我们将它们结合起来，这就是这个新事物的优点。

Ian McAllister: So if you start talking about those things or the technology, I think that's a likely case that you're not really working backwards as opposed to the opposite is if there's a customer problem that feels compelling even before the solution, yeah, that does feel compelling.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：所以，如果你开始谈论这些事情或技术，我认为很可能你并没有真正向后工作，相反，如果有一个客户问题在解决方案出现之前就让人感到引人注目，是的，这确实让人感到引人注目。

And just like with every startup out there, probably a lot of the pitches are there's a big audience and a painful problem and it's the painkiller versus the vitamin thing.

就像每家初创公司一样，可能很多宣传都是有大量受众和一个痛苦的问题，这是止痛药与维生素的问题。

And then we have a novel way to solve that.

然后我们有一种新颖的方法来解决这个问题。

That's kind of working backwards.

这有点倒退。

But more often, especially in a big company, you'll have all these ideas because you have more ingredients in the pantry of ways you could combine them and try to feed it to someone but may not be working backwards.

但更常见的是，尤其是在一家大公司，你会拥有所有这些想法，因为你的储藏室里有更多的成分，你可以将它们组合起来并尝试将其喂给某人，但可能不会倒退。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

We're reaching about an hour chatting and so I want to let you go.

我们已经聊了大约一个小时了，所以我想让你走了。

Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else you want to share on anything we've chatted about?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您对于我们讨论的内容还有什么想分享的吗？

Ian McAllister: Let's see.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：让我们看看。

No. I mean I think we covered a bunch of good ground.

不，我的意思是我认为我们已经涵盖了很多基础知识。

It's been fun, but nothing particular.

这很有趣，但没什么特别的。

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

Well then we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

那么我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

We've got six questions here.

我们这里有六个问题。

They'll be pretty quick and easy.

他们会非常快速和容易。

Whatever comes to mind, share and we'll go through them relatively quickly.

无论想到什么，请分享，我们会相对较快地完成它们。

Sound good?

听起来不错吗？

Lenny: Let's do it.

莱尼：我们开始吧。

What are two or three books that you've most recommended to other people?

您最常向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Ian McAllister: I say Getting Real by 37 Signals and it's specifically the chapter on epicenter design.

Ian McAllister: I say Getting Real by 37 Signals and it's specifically the chapter on epicenter design.

I've shared that many, many times.

我已经分享过很多很多次了。

You can link to it.

您可以链接到它。

That's definitely the most thing I've shared.

这绝对是我分享的最多的事情。

For fun, The Wool Trilogy by Hugh Howey, he's probably my favorite author and a great series.

为了好玩，休·豪伊（Hugh Howey）的《羊毛三部曲》，他可能是我最喜欢的作家，也是一个很棒的系列。

And then for learning, just a recent one that I thought would be super fascinating was Energy and Civilization by Vaclav Smil.

And then for learning, just a recent one that I thought would be super fascinating was Energy and Civilization by Vaclav Smil.

So it might not be on the best seller list, but I thought it was interesting.

So it might not be on the best seller list, but I thought it was interesting.

Lenny: What's another favorite podcast of yours other than this one possibly?

Lenny: What's another favorite podcast of yours other than this one possibly?

Ian McAllister: I think How I Built This is really interesting just to decompose how interesting businesses and products came about.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我认为我是如何构建的，只是分解有趣的业务和产品是如何产生的，这真的很有趣。

And then just because of my work, EV News Daily is a daily digest of what's going on in the electric vehicle space.

And then just because of my work, EV News Daily is a daily digest of what's going on in the electric vehicle space.

So that's a very good use of my time, five minutes a day to get up to speed.

So that's a very good use of my time, five minutes a day to get up to speed.

Lenny: Very niche.

莱尼：非常小众。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

What's a favorite movie or a TV show you've recently seen?

What's a favorite movie or a TV show you've recently seen?

Ian McAllister: Yellowstone.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：黄石公园。

That's definitely my favorite.

这绝对是我的最爱。

Can't wait for the next season.

等不及下一季了。

Montana's my happy place, although I'm probably the kind of person that they rail about in the show, so it's kind of ironic.

Montana's my happy place, although I'm probably the kind of person that they rail about in the show, so it's kind of ironic.

And I think the movie was Everything Everywhere All At Once.

And I think the movie was Everything Everywhere All At Once.

I love movies that are not predictable and I thought that was just very creative.

我喜欢不可预测的电影，我认为这非常有创意。

Lenny: I'm shocked by how many people on Yellowstone die.

Lenny: I'm shocked by how many people on Yellowstone die.

That show is just murder left and right.

那个节目简直就是谋杀。

I was not expecting that on a ranch oriented show.

I was not expecting that on a ranch oriented show.

Lenny: Quite harsh, turns out.

莱尼：事实证明，相当严厉。

Especially if you mess with the Duttons.

尤其是如果你惹恼了达顿一家。

Next question.

下一个问题。

Favorite interview question that you like to ask.

Favorite interview question that you like to ask.

Ian McAllister: When I'm coming out of left field, I ask people at this stage in your career, what have you learned about yourself?

Ian McAllister: When I'm coming out of left field, I ask people at this stage in your career, what have you learned about yourself?

How are you different from other people?

你和其他人有什么不同？

No one's prepared for that.

没有人为此做好准备。

Lenny: What do you look for in their answers?

莱尼：你在他们的答案中寻找什么？

Ian McAllister: I don't know.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我不知道。

There's not one specific thing and there's no right answer, which maybe makes it unfair, but just maybe a little self-reflection and maybe they will have understanding their strengths and that might be a good bit of self-awareness about what makes them different, where they can harness that and that makes them a better PM or engineer or something.

没有一个具体的事情，也没有正确的答案，这可能会让这变得不公平，但也许只是一点自我反省，也许他们会了解自己的优势，这可能是一种很好的自我意识，了解是什么让他们与众不同，他们可以在哪里利用这一点，这使他们成为更好的 PM 或工程师或其他什么。

And so that's kind of what I'm looking for, but there's no set answer.

And so that's kind of what I'm looking for, but there's no set answer.

It's more just to throw them off balance.

更重要的是让他们失去平衡。

Lenny: Interesting.

莱尼：有趣。

Favorite app right now.

目前最喜欢的应用程序。

Ian McAllister: It's probably not too interesting, but to be honest, YouTube.

Ian McAllister: It's probably not too interesting, but to be honest, YouTube.

It's like the eighth wander of the world and just every day I'm amazed if I want to learn about something new.

It's like the eighth wander of the world and just every day I'm amazed if I want to learn about something new.

A couple summers ago I had some time off and so I basically taught myself how to do woodworking and built a kitchen and other stuff.

A couple summers ago I had some time off and so I basically taught myself how to do woodworking and built a kitchen and other stuff.

And so it's just like it continues to be this resource and this jewel that helps me grow and learn about anything.

And so it's just like it continues to be this resource and this jewel that helps me grow and learn about anything.

Lenny: I imagine some people are watching this on YouTube right now.

Lenny: I imagine some people are watching this on YouTube right now.

Lenny: I just read a story about an Olympic javelin thrower who learned how to do this watching YouTube.

Lenny: I just read a story about an Olympic javelin thrower who learned how to do this watching YouTube.

He was somewhere in, I think maybe Africa.

他在某个地方，我想也许是非洲。

He had no coaches around and he just watched this one other javelin guy that just shared lessons on how to do this and became incredibly good.

He had no coaches around and he just watched this one other javelin guy that just shared lessons on how to do this and became incredibly good.

It's insane.

太疯狂了。

Ian McAllister: And I mean, I'm old, so I didn't have this when I was growing up.

Ian McAllister: And I mean, I'm old, so I didn't have this when I was growing up.

I remember going to the library and sending away for a brochure in the back of a magazine and things.

I remember going to the library and sending away for a brochure in the back of a magazine and things.

Learning was not so easy back then.

那时的学习并不那么容易。

The internet obviously was a huge resource and is, but then YouTube as well to see somebody do it.

The internet obviously was a huge resource and is, but then YouTube as well to see somebody do it.

It's also interesting to see somebody live.

看到有人活着也很有趣。

So anyway, I'm a fan.

所以无论如何，我是一个粉丝。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

Who else in the industry do you most respect as a thought leader, someone you look up to?

Who else in the industry do you most respect as a thought leader, someone you look up to?

Ian McAllister: I say Gibson Biddle.

伊恩·麦卡利斯特：我说吉布森·比德尔。

I think that he is one, just tremendous amount of product experience that I think is valuable.

I think that he is one, just tremendous amount of product experience that I think is valuable.

I respect the fact that he takes the time to share it.

I respect the fact that he takes the time to share it.

He doesn't have to, but he does.

他没必要这么做，但他确实这么做了。

And he's also a great communicator and he invests in being ...

And he's also a great communicator and he invests in being ...

You can tell he measures of his talks and things like this.

You can tell he measures of his talks and things like this.

He's invested over his career to be a great communicator.

He's invested over his career to be a great communicator.

So I think he's a good role model for me and I think for others out there.

所以我认为他对我和其他人来说都是一个很好的榜样。

Lenny: That guy's a force.

莱尼：那家伙很有力量。

I'm happy that we've had him on this podcast.

我很高兴他出现在这个播客中。

I'm hoping that everyone eventually, that people mention in this question we end up having on this podcast.

I'm hoping that everyone eventually, that people mention in this question we end up having on this podcast.

So that's great to check.

所以这是很好的检查。

I also love Gibson.

我也喜欢吉布森。

He's got a great newsletter.

他有一份很棒的时事通讯。

Askgibbs.substack.com I think.

我想是 Askgibbs.substack.com 。

Ian, thank you so much for being here.

伊恩，非常感谢你来到这里。

This was amazing.

这太棒了。

I really appreciate you sharing all this wisdom with us.

我真的很感谢您与我们分享所有这些智慧。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more, and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系、了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Ian McAllister: Yeah, I guess Twitter's a great place.

Ian McAllister: Yeah, I guess Twitter's a great place.

So IanMcAll, I-A-N-M-C-A-L-L, is my handle.

所以 IanMcAll，I-A-N-M-C-A-L-L，是我的句柄。

And then I've started a newsletter.

然后我开始写时事通讯。

I'm not that frequent to be honest.

说实话我没那么频繁。

I have a lot of good intentions and a bunch of ideas.

我有很多美好的愿望和很多想法。

Ianmcallister.substack.com.

Ianmcallister.substack.com。

And that's something to connect and feel free to subscribe and hit me up on Twitter if you have ideas for posts or questions.

这是一个可以联系的东西，如果您对帖子或问题有任何想法，请随时订阅并在 Twitter 上联系我。

And if I can answer in a tweet, I will.

如果我能在推文中回答，我会的。

If not, I might put it on the queue of things to write about.

如果没有，我可能会把它列入要写的事情的队列中。

And yeah, thanks for having me on Lenny.

是的，谢谢你让我上莱尼。

We were talking earlier about writing or doing other things and the value of that is just making connections with people.

我们之前讨论过写作或做其他事情，其价值只是与人建立联系。

And so that was what I was one, just to reconnect with you is awesome.

And so that was what I was one, just to reconnect with you is awesome.

And to whatever extent I get a chance to make new connections in the world, that's a good thing.

无论如何，我有机会在世界上建立新的联系，这都是一件好事。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

And we originally connected over that piece that you wrote, so it all circles back 10 years later maybe.

我们最初是通过你写的那篇文章建立联系的，所以这一切可能会追溯到 10 年后。

Thanks, Ian.

谢谢，伊恩。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。