How we restructured Airtable's entire org for AI | Howie Liu (co-founder and CEO)

Howie Liu: If you were literally founding a new company from scratch with the same mission, how would you execute on that mission using a fully AI native approach?

Howie Liu：如果您从头开始创建一家新公司，肩负同样的使命，您将如何使用完全人工智能原生方法来执行该使命？

If you can't, then you should find a buyer and then if you really care about this mission, go and start the next carnation of it.

如果你不能，那么你应该找到一个买家，然后如果你真的关心这个使命，就去开始它的下一个康乃馨。

Lenny Rachitsky: Or people that work for you, how have you adjusted what you expect of them to help them be successful?

Lenny Rachitsky：或者为你工作的人，你如何调整你对他们的期望以帮助他们取得成功？

Howie Liu: If you want to cancel all your meetings for like a day or for an entire week and just go play around with every AI product you think could be relevant to Airtable, go do it.

Howie Liu：如果你想取消一天或一整周的所有会议，然后尝试一下你认为可能与 Airtable 相关的每个人工智能产品，那就去做吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: Of the different functions on our product team PM, engineering design, who has had the most success being more productive with these tools?

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的产品团队 PM（工程设计）的不同职能中，谁在使用这些工具提高工作效率方面取得了最大的成功？

Howie Liu: It really does become more about individual attitude.

Howie Liu：这确实更多地取决于个人态度。

There's a strong advantage to any of those three roles who can kind of cross over into the other two.

这三个角色中的任何一个都可以跨入其他两个角色，这都有很大的优势。

As a PM, you need to start looking more like a hybrid PM prototyper, who has some good design sensibilities?

作为一名产品经理，您需要开始看起来更像一名混合型产品经理原型师，谁具有良好的设计敏感性？

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you see one of these roles being more in trouble than others?

Lenny Rachitsky：你认为其中一个角色比其他角色遇到的麻烦更多吗？

Today, my guest is Howie Liu.

今天，我的嘉宾是刘豪。

Howie is the co-founder and CEO of Airtable.

Howie 是 Airtable 的联合创始人兼首席执行官。

I'm having a bunch of conversations on this podcast with founders who are reinventing their decade plus old business in this AI era, to help you navigate this existential transition that every company and product is going through right now.

我在这个播客上与创始人进行了很多对话，他们正在人工智能时代重塑他们十几年的老业务，以帮助您驾驭每个公司和产品目前正在经历的生存转型。

Howie and Airtable's journey is an incredible example of this, and there's so much to learn from what Howie shares in this conversation.

Howie 和 Airtable 的旅程就是一个令人难以置信的例子，从 Howie 在这次谈话中分享的内容中可以学到很多东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: We talk about a very interesting trend that I've noticed that Howie is very much an example of, of CEOs almost becoming individual contributors again, getting into the code, building things, leading initiatives themselves.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们谈论一个非常有趣的趋势，我注意到 Howie 就是一个很好的例子，CEO 几乎再次成为个人贡献者，参与代码、构建事物、亲自领导计划。

That's something that we call the IC CEO.

这就是我们所说的 IC CEO。

We also talk about the very specific skills that he believes product managers and product leaders, also engineers and designers need to build to do well in this new world that we're in.

我们还讨论了他认为产品经理和产品领导者以及工程师和设计师需要培养的非常具体的技能，才能在我们所处的这个新世界中取得好成绩。

Also, how he restructured his company into two groups, a fast thinking group, and a slow thinking group, which allowed their AI investments to significantly accelerate.

此外，他如何将公司重组为两个小组，一个快速思考小组和一个慢速思考小组，这使得他们的人工智能投资显着加速。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you're struggling to figure out how to be successful in this new AI era, this episode is for you.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您正在努力弄清楚如何在这个新的人工智能时代取得成功，那么这一集就是为您准备的。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of 15 incredible products, including Lovable, Replit, Bolt and Adyen, Linear, Superhuman, Descript, Wispr Flow, Gamma, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, ChatPRD and Mobit.

此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的 15 种令人难以置信的产品，包括 Lovable、Replit、Bolt 和 Adyen、Linear、SuperHuman、Descript、Wispr Flow、Gamma、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、ChatPRD 和 Mobit。

Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click product pass.

请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击产品通行证。

With that, I bring you Howie Liu.

接下来，我为您带来Howie Liu。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Lucidlink, the storage collaboration platform.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由存储协作平台 Lucidlink 为您带来。

You've built a great product, but how you show it through video design and storytelling is what brings it to life.

您已经打造了一款出色的产品，但如何通过视频设计和讲故事来展示它才是让它变得栩栩如生的关键。

If your team works with large media files, videos, design assets, layered project files, you know how painful it can be to stay organized across locations.

如果您的团队处理大型媒体文件、视频、设计资产、分层项目文件，您就会知道跨地点保持井井有条是多么痛苦。

Files live in different places.

文件位于不同的地方。

You're constantly asking, is this the latest version?

您不断地问，这是最新版本吗？

Creative work slows down while people wait for files to transfer.

当人们等待文件传输时，创造性工作就会减慢。

Lenny Rachitsky: Lucidlink fixes this.

Lenny Rachitsky：Lucidlink 解决了这个问题。

It gives your team a shared space in the cloud that works like a local drive.

它为您的团队提供了一个类似于本地驱动器的云共享空间。

Files are instantly accessible from anywhere.

可从任何地方立即访问文件。

No downloading, no syncing, and always up to date.

无需下载、无需同步，并且始终保持最新状态。

That means producers, editors, designers, and marketers can open massive files in their native apps, work directly from the cloud, and stay aligned wherever they are.

这意味着制作人、编辑、设计师和营销人员可以在其本机应用程序中打开大量文件，直接从云端工作，并且无论身在何处都可以保持一致。

Teams at Adobe, Shopify and top creative agencies use LucidLink to keep their content engine running fast and smooth.

Adobe、Shopify 和顶级创意机构的团队使用 LucidLink 来保持其内容引擎快速流畅地运行。

Try it for free at lucidlink.com/lenny.

请访问 lucidlink.com/lenny 免费试用。

That's L-U-C-I-D-L-I-N-K dot com slash Lenny.

这是 L-U-C-I-D-L-I-N-K . com 斜线 Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目是由 DX 为您带来的，DX 是由领先研究人员设计的开发者智能平台。

To thrive in the AI era.

在人工智能时代蓬勃发展。

Organizations need to adapt quickly, but many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like, which tools are working, how are they being used, what's actually driving value?

组织需要快速适应，但许多组织领导者很难回答紧迫的问题，例如哪些工具正在发挥作用，它们如何使用，什么真正推动了价值？

DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift.

DX 提供领导者应对这一转变所需的数据和见解。

With DX, companies like Dropbox, Booking.com, Adyen, and Intercom.

DX 的合作伙伴包括 Dropbox、Booking.com、Adyen 和 Intercom 等公司。

Get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity.

深入了解人工智能如何为开发人员提供价值以及人工智能对工程生产力的影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com/lenny.

Lenny Rachitsky：要了解更多信息，请访问 DX 的网站 getdx.com/lenny。

That's getdx.com/lenny.

那是 getdx.com/lenny。

Howie, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Howie，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Howie Liu: I'm so excited.

刘豪：我很兴奋。

Thank you, Lenny.

谢谢你，莱尼。

I've been a listener from afar for a while now.

一段时间以来，我一直是远方的倾听者。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm really flattered to hear that.

Lenny Rachitsky：听到这个消息我真的很受宠若惊。

I'm also very excited.

我也很兴奋。

You've been on quite a journey over the last, is it 13 years, is it longer?

过去你经历了一段相当长的旅程，是13年还是更长？

Lenny Rachitsky: 13 years.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：13 年。

I imagine there've been a lot of ups and a lot of downs.

我想有很多起起落落。

I want to talk about all those things.

我想谈谈所有这些事情。

I want to talk about a lot of the lessons that you've learned along the way.

我想谈谈你们一路走来学到的很多教训。

I want to start with what I imagine was a very surprising down moment in the history of Airtable.

我想从我认为 Airtable 历史上一个非常令人惊讶的低潮时刻开始。

This is something that, unfortunately, something I think about when I think of Airtable.

不幸的是，当我想到 Airtable 时，我就会想到这一点。

I feel other people may feel this way, is there's this tweet that went super viral, maybe a couple of years ago at this point where someone just shared all this data and they're like, Airtable is dead.

我觉得其他人可能也会有这样的感觉，是否有一条推文非常火爆，也许几年前，有人刚刚分享了所有这些数据，然后他们就说，Airtable 已经死了。

Lenny Rachitsky: They've raised way more money than they're worth.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们筹集的资金远远超出了他们的价值。

They're not making enough to get from underwater.

他们挣的钱不够从水下捞出来。

Yeah, Airtable RIP.

是的，Airtable RIP。

What happened there?

那里发生了什么？

How much of that was true?

其中有多少是真的？

How did that go?

进展如何？

Howie Liu: Yeah, so basically none of it was true.

Howie Liu：是的，所以基本上没有一个是真的。

I mean, the surprising thing to me was how viral this tweet went when ...

我的意思是，令我惊讶的是这条推文竟然如此火爆……

Frankly, I actually look back at this person's other tweets.

坦白说，我实际上回顾了这个人的其他推文。

I think they worked at CB Insights, and the irony is the whole point of that business is to have good data, good data quality around private company data.

我认为他们在 CB Insights 工作，具有讽刺意味的是，该业务的重点是围绕私营公司数据拥有良好的数据和良好的数据质量。

And they just literally had incorrect numbers by a strong multiple on what our revenue scale was, what our growth rate was.

他们的数据实际上是错误的，与我们的收入规模和增长率相差很多倍。

And if it gave me some consolation, I look back and this person had also tweeted about other companies, like Flexport was the last take-down tweet.

如果这给了我一些安慰的话，我回头一看，这个人还发布了有关其他公司的推文，比如 Flexport 是最后一条被删除的推文。

Howie Liu: They have like, "Oh, Flexport's dead" and their evaluation is too high, and blah, blah, blah.

Howie Liu：他们会说，“哦，Flexport 死了”，他们的评价太高了，等等等等。

And so, I think that the more surprising thing was just like this person has been tweeting a bunch of spicy takes that are not substantiated by real data or correct data, and yet this particular tweet went super viral and that was the perplexing part to me.

所以，我认为更令人惊讶的事情就像这个人在推特上发布了一堆没有真实数据或正确数据证实的辛辣言论，然而这条特定的推文却像病毒一样传播开来，这对我来说是令人困惑的部分。

And then, actually, I think what really gave it legs was on the All In podcast, which is obviously super popular.

然后，实际上，我认为真正让它发挥作用的是 All In 播客，这显然非常受欢迎。

And I listened to it.

我听了。

They covered it.

他们覆盖了它。

They were like, "Oh, latest on this week's news, this tweet about Airtable.

他们的反应是，“哦，本周的最新新闻，这条关于 Airtable 的推文。

What do we think about this?"

我们对此有何看法？”

Howie Liu: And it almost, I think became a way to talk about a broader theme of what happens to this last generation of highly valued companies, maybe decacorn companies in this new ...

Howie Liu：我认为这几乎成了一种谈论更广泛主题的方式，即最后一代高估值公司（也许是这个新时代的十角兽公司）所发生的事情。

And at that point, it was the recent moment for both public and private markets.

那时，对于公共和私人市场来说，都是最近的时刻。

They did also issue a correction though.

不过他们也确实发布了更正。

All In, did a follow-up episode, a few, I think weeks later saying, "Hey, we got the numbers wrong.

全力以赴，做了一个后续剧集，我想几周后，我说，“嘿，我们把数字弄错了。

We are revising our case and a view on Airtable."

我们正在修改我们的案例以及对 Airtable 的看法。”

Lenny Rachitsky: What's that line about how a lie gets around the world some number of times before truth has even this time to get out of bed?

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：在真相还没有起床之前，谎言已经在世界各地传播了很多次，这句话是什么意思？

Howie Liu: Yeah.

刘豪：是的。

Well, I think I learned about memes and morality very quickly in that experience.

嗯，我想我在那次经历中很快就了解了模因和道德。

Not a very good social media person, but I think I learned a little more.

不是一个很好的社交媒体人，但我想我学到了更多。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it's tough.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，这很难。

Twitter is such ...

推特就是这样...

The incentives are so misaligned.

激励措施如此失调。

It's just I tweet something people want to share, not truth.

我只是在推特上发布一些人们想要分享的东西，而不是事实。

Howie Liu: Well, especially ...

刘豪伊：嗯，尤其是……

I mean, there's a lot to like ...

我的意思是，有很多值得喜欢的东西......

I would say, I like the post Elon Twitter more than the pre Elon Twitter because it is just bolder, and I guess I really admire bold product execution where you're not just stuck to the current laurels and they've made so many changes, but I do feel like I get injected into my feed very sensational content all the time, and I mean, it works on me.

我想说的是，我更喜欢埃隆之后的 Twitter，而不是埃隆之前的 Twitter，因为它更大胆，我想我真的很欣赏大胆的产品执行，你不只是固守当前的桂冠，他们已经做出了很多改变，但我确实觉得我一直在我的提要中注入非常耸人听闻的内容，我的意思是，它对我有用。

I can't help but to click on it and engage with it, but it does ...

我忍不住点击它并参与其中，但它确实......

I think it does result in this kind of content, really spreading.

我认为这确实导致了这种内容的真正传播。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Now, Nikita running the show, I don't know if you saw this, there's a new ...

现在，尼基塔主持节目，我不知道你是否看到了这个，有一个新的......

We don't need to keep talking about Twitter, but there's a new feature where you take a screenshot of a tweet and it has a huge X.com logo watermark on the top, right?

我们不需要继续谈论 Twitter，但有一个新功能，你可以对一条推文进行屏幕截图，它的顶部有一个巨大的 X.com 徽标水印，对吗？

Yeah, just to ...

是的，只是为了...

People are sharing these tweets all the time.

人们一直在分享这些推文。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Man.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：伙计。

Never a dull moment over there.

那里从来没有一个沉闷的时刻。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I want to go in a completely different direction, something that I'm really excited to talk to you about, which is this very emerging trend that I've noticed that I feel like you're at the forefront of CEOs becoming ICs again.

我想要走向一个完全不同的方向，我很高兴能与你们谈论这一点，这是一个非常新兴的趋势，我注意到我觉得你们再次站在了首席执行官成为 IC 的最前沿。

It's kind of this move of, IC CEOs.

这就是 IC 首席执行官的这种举动。

CEOs getting their hands dirty again, building again, getting in the weeds, coating again.

首席执行官们再次亲自动手，再次建设，再次深入杂草，再次涂漆。

I feel like you're again at the forefront of this.

我觉得你又站在了这件事的最前沿。

Talk about just why you've done this, why you think this is important, and just what that looks like day to day to you versus what your life was like a few years ago.

谈谈你为什么这样做，为什么你认为这很重要，以及你每天的生活与几年前的生活相比是怎样的。

Howie Liu: The underlying reason for this shift, at least for me, is that, as we started the company, I was very much in this mode.

Howie Liu：这种转变的根本原因是，至少对我来说，当我们创办公司时，我就处于这种模式中。

I was literally writing code both on the backend, thinking about the real time data architecture of our platform, also the front end, the UX.

我实际上是在后端编写代码，思考我们平台的实时数据架构，以及前端和用户体验。

And I would argue that in that founding moment, the initial product market fit finding, and especially for a product that is pure software, we weren't building an operationally heavy business like a dog walking marketplace where the tech is only an afterthought.

我认为，在那个创始时刻，最初的产品市场契合度发现，特别是对于纯软件产品，我们并没有建立像遛狗市场那样的运营繁重的业务，其中技术只是事后的想法。

Howie Liu: The tech was the product, right?

Howie Liu：技术就是产品，对吧？

And in a very Meta sense, Airtable is the platform for other people to build their own apps.

从元意义上来说，Airtable 是其他人构建自己的应用程序的平台。

So it's all about the attack, like the very intimate design decisions, again, both architecturally and on the front end and the product UX choices.

因此，这一切都与攻击有关，就像非常亲密的设计决策一样，无论是在架构上还是在前端和产品用户体验选择上。

That is the product's value prop.

这就是产品的价值支柱。

You can't separate those two.

你无法将这两者分开。

You can't say, "Okay, I researched the jobs to be done.

你不能说：“好吧，我研究了要完成的工作。

Here's the workflow, here's the process, and then, okay, some engineer can just build it as an afterthought."

这是工作流程，这是过程，然后，好吧，一些工程师可以事后构建它。”

Howie Liu: It's those little decisions and really be able to be at the bleeding edge of what's possible both in the browser and with the real-time data architecture.

Howie Liu：正是这些小决定，真正能够在浏览器和实时数据架构中处于可能的前沿。

That made the product what it was.

这就是产品的本质。

I think the same is true for Figma, which actually had a very parallel timeline to us.

我认为 Figma 也是如此，它实际上与我们有着非常平行的时间线。

We both were founded around the same time, both spent two and a half years building the product, hands-on that early team before launching.

我们都是大约在同一时间成立的，都花了两年半的时间来开发产品，并在发布之前亲自参与了早期团队的工作。

And when I think now to both the era in between that founding moment and then now as well as now the new gen AI moment, I think there was a maturing era of both SaaS overall and Airtable specifically.

当我现在想到从创始时刻到现在以及现在的新一代人工智能时刻之间的时代时，我认为 SaaS 整体和具体的 Airtable 都有一个成熟的时代。

Howie Liu: Where, as you scale up and you learn how to build teams and organizations and you have to scale up stuff that's not actually those intimate details, but process and people and so on, you kind of get by default further and further away from those details, right?

Howie Liu：当你扩大规模并学习如何建立团队和组织时，你必须扩大的东西实际上不是那些亲密的细节，而是流程和人员等等，默认情况下你会越来越远离这些细节，对吗？

And maybe for some businesses that's fine because no longer is it about finding the details that make for a magical new product market fit.

也许对于某些企业来说这很好，因为不再是寻找适合神奇新产品市场的细节。

And it is really just about scaling up an existing thing that works and using what I would call more blunt instruments to scale it up, like a more blunt roadmap, a more blunt go-to market execution strategy.

这实际上只是扩大现有的可行的东西，并使用我所说的更生硬的工具来扩大规模，比如更生硬的路线图、更生硬的市场执行策略。

Howie Liu: Regardless, I think that now, we're entering this moment where ...

Howie Liu：无论如何，我认为现在，我们正在进入这个时刻......

Certainly every software product in my opinion, has to be refounded because AI is such a paradigm shift, it's not even just like the shift from desktop to mobile or on-prem to cloud where that was more like a very one time and somewhat predictable change in form factor.

当然，在我看来，每个软件产品都必须重新构建，因为人工智能是一种范式转变，它甚至不像从桌面到移动或本地到云的转变，后者更像是一次非常一次性且在某种程度上可预测的外形变化。

I think AI is so rapidly evolving that with every evolution, every new model release and every new type of capability that's released, it actually implies novel form factors and novel UX patterns to be invented to fully capitalize on those capabilities.

我认为人工智能的发展是如此之快，以至于每一次的演变、每一个新模型的发布以及每一种新的功能类型的发布，实际上都意味着要发明新的外形因素和新的用户体验模式，以充分利用这些功能。

Howie Liu: And so to be continuously relevant and to refine product market fit in this era, I think you have to be of the details.

Howie Liu：因此，为了在这个时代保持持续的相关性并完善产品市场契合度，我认为你必须关注细节。

There is no looking at it from 10,000 foot view and saying, "Oh, we're just going to throw a bunch of people at this problem." It's actually understanding what is the right product experience and the right business model that backs it up and the right ...

没有人会从 10,000 英尺的高度来看问题并说：“哦，我们只是要派一群人来解决这个问题。”它实际上是理解什么是正确的产品体验和支持它的正确的商业模式以及正确的......

everything else to support that engine to take advantage of the capabilities in our product domain.

支持该引擎利用我们产品领域的功能的其他一切。

Lenny Rachitsky: You have this phrase somewhere where you talk about being the chief taste maker.

Lenny Rachitsky：在谈到成为首席品味创造者时，你有这样一句话。

Lenny Rachitsky: And to do that, you have to do exactly what you're describing.

Lenny Rachitsky：要做到这一点，你必须完全按照你所描述的去做。

Howie Liu: That's right.

刘豪：没错。

I mean, I think that, and I would also say it's actually now also hard to taste the soup without participating in at least some part of creating the soup.

我的意思是，我认为，而且我还想说，如果不参与至少部分制作汤的过程，现在实际上也很难品尝汤。

Meaning With AI, you can kind of look at the final product and say, "Okay, this feels right or not, or it feels like we're being bold enough and we're properly productizing these new capabilities." But I think to really understand the solution space of what's possible, you have to be in the details.

意味着有了人工智能，你可以在查看最终产品时说：“好吧，这感觉对不对，或者感觉我们足够大胆，我们正在正确地产品化这些新功能。”但我认为要真正了解可能的解决方案空间，您必须了解细节。

Howie Liu: I mean, literally, you can't just look at screenshots or a pre-recorded video of a new product feature.

Howie Liu：我的意思是，从字面上看，你不能只看新产品功能的屏幕截图或预先录制的视频。

AI is something you have to play with, and ideally you're playing with both the packaged up app or solution that you've built with it, but you're also playing around directly with the underlying primitives who are using the models either via API or via a chat interface.

AI 是你必须使用的东西，理想情况下，你可以使用打包的应用程序或用它构建的解决方案，但你也可以直接使用通过 API 或聊天界面使用模型的底层原语。

You're really pushing them to the boundaries.

你真的把他们逼到了极限。

Because that's the only way that you really understand what these new ingredients.

因为这是您真正了解这些新成分的唯一方法。

It's like as a chef, you just gained access to amazing new ingredients, but you have to actually get comfortable with them to put them into a new dish.

这就像作为一名厨师，您刚刚获得了令人惊叹的新食材，但您必须真正熟悉它们才能将它们放入新菜肴中。

Lenny Rachitsky: And we had Dan Shipper on the podcast, he runs this newsletter and podcast to product a company called Every.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们的播客中有 Dan Shipper，他负责运营这份时事通讯和播客，以打造一家名为 Every 的公司。

And they work with companies to help them become more AI successful and adopt AI and all that stuff.

他们与公司合作，帮助他们在人工智能方面取得更大成功，并采用人工智能和所有其他东西。

And I asked him, what's the signal that a company will have success adopting AI and seeing huge productivity gains?

我问他，什么信号表明一家公司将成功采用人工智能并看到生产力的巨大提升？

And he said, does the CEO use ChatGPT or Claude daily?

他说，CEO每天都用ChatGPT还是Claude？

Lenny Rachitsky: And I feel like you're describing exactly, hourly,

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得你每小时都在准确地描述，

Howie Liu: Literally hourly, or you could even have a measure of inference costs, right?

Howie Liu：实际上是每小时，或者你甚至可以衡量推理成本，对吧？

Like the equivalent underlying inference compute cycles, right?

就像等效的底层推理计算周期一样，对吧？

Howie Liu: Yeah, I mean, I'm proud to say I am pretty sure I'm still the ...

Howie Liu：是的，我的意思是，我很自豪地说我很确定我仍然是......

I just checked this recently, but I take pride in being the number one most expensive in inference cost user of Airtable AI, not just within our own company, but I think for a long time I was globally across all our customers vault.

我最近刚刚检查过这一点，但我很自豪自己是 Airtable AI 推理成本最高的用户，不仅在我们自己的公司内部，而且我认为很长一段时间以来，我在全球所有客户库中都是如此。

I mean, I'm extremely intentionally wasteful.

我的意思是，我是故意浪费的。

Wasteful in the sense of I'll do something that costs maybe hundreds of dollars of actual inference costs.

浪费是指我要做的事情可能花费数百美元的实际推理成本。

For instance, doing a lot of LLM calls against long transcripts of let's say, sales calls to extract different types of insights like here's the product apps, identify or here's summaries, et cetera.

例如，针对较长的文字记录进行大量的法学硕士通话，比如说，销售通话以提取不同类型的见解，例如这里的产品应用程序、识别或这里的摘要等等。

Howie Liu: And we also have now a capability that's basically like an LLM map reduce.

Howie Liu：我们现在还拥有基本上类似于 LLM 映射缩减的功能。

So effectively, even if you can't fit the entire corpus of content into one LLM call, because the context window limitations, we'll map through all of this content and break it up into chunks and then perform an LLM call on each one and then perform an aggregation LLM call on those chunks.

因此，即使由于上下文窗口限制，您无法将整个内容语料库放入一个 LLM 调用中，我们也会映射所有这些内容并将其分解为块，然后对每个块执行 LLM 调用，然后对这些块执行聚合 LLM 调用。

Very expensive, because you're basically running a highly expensive model against a lot of data and then running it again on the aggregates of that.

非常昂贵，因为您基本上是针对大量数据运行一个非常昂贵的模型，然后在这些数据的聚合上再次运行它。

But for me, hundreds of dollars spent on this exercise is trivial compared to the potential strategic value of having better insights.

但对我来说，与获得更好洞察力的潜在战略价值相比，在这项练习上花费的数百美元微不足道。

Howie Liu: It's as if a really, really smart chief of staff has gone through and read every single sales call transcript that we've had in the past year and giving me very astute product insights, marketing insights, kind of positioning insights and segmentation insights.

Howie Liu：就好像一位非常非常聪明的幕僚长仔细阅读了我们在过去一年中收到的每一份销售电话记录，并为我提供了非常敏锐的产品见解、营销见解、定位见解和细分见解。

That's invaluable.

这是无价的。

You could pay a consulting firm literally millions of dollars to get that quality of work.

你可以向咨询公司支付数百万美元以获得这样的工作质量。

So to me, I still think the value versus the actual cost of AI when applied greedily but smartly, it's a crazy ratio.

所以对我来说，我仍然认为，当贪婪但聪明地应用人工智能时，其价值与实际成本之间的比率是一个疯狂的比率。

And more people should be aggressively throwing compute cycles at these very high value problems.

更多的人应该积极地投入计算周期来解决这些非常高价值的问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Until somebody tweets how you're costing the company so much on AI compute and you guys are going to be underwater.

Lenny Rachitsky：直到有人发推文说你们在人工智能计算上让公司付出了如此大的代价，你们就会陷入困境。

Howie Liu: I'm just kidding.

刘豪：我只是开个玩笑。

It's like how we have personally taken down the cashflow profile of the business.

这就像我们亲自记下企业的现金流状况一样。

Lenny Rachitsky: So CEO's, founders hearing this, they're probably like, okay, I should probably start doing this.

Lenny Rachitsky：首席执行官、创始人听到这个消息后，可能会想，好吧，我应该开始这样做。

What does this actually look like?

这实际上是什么样子的？

I imagine you still have a lot of other stuff you got going on once, you got all these ...

我想你还有很多其他的事情你曾经做过，你得到了所有这些......

How do you change your day to day to do this?

你如何改变你的日常生活来做到这一点？

Howie Liu: Yeah, so I actually cut my one-on-one roster by default, and the idea is not that I don't want to spend time one-on-one with people, but rather that I found that the ...

Howie Liu：是的，所以我实际上默认削减了我的一对一名单，这个想法并不是我不想花时间与人一对一，而是我发现......

Just having more standing one-on-ones actually precludes me from engaging in more timely topics.

事实上，更多的常设一对一会妨碍我参与更及时的话题。

I like to think of the best types of meetings as very urgency driven.

我喜欢认为最好的会议类型是非常紧迫的。

And there's some timely topic, you've discovered some insight.

还有一些适时的话题，你已经发现了一些见解。

Maybe I talked to some new startup and I learned something from their product or their approach.

也许我与一些新的初创公司交谈过，我从他们的产品或方法中学到了一些东西。

Howie Liu: And I want to bring that into how we're thinking about a new feature at Airtable or even just plant the seed with some different EPD people within Airtable, I want to make most meetings very timely and very informed by real alpha.

Howie Liu：我想将这一点带入我们对 Airtable 的新功能的思考中，甚至只是与 Airtable 内的一些不同的 EPD 人员一起播下种子，我希望让大多数会议都非常及时，并由真正的 alpha 提供丰富的信息。

There's got to be some kind of value and insight to seed that with.

必须有某种价值和洞察力来播种。

Now, in addition to that, I'll supplement with, when I'm in person with someone, I want to carve out time for a proper catch up and less structured, less timely, and just more of building a relationship with a human.

现在，除此之外，我还要补充一点，当我与某人面对面时，我想腾出时间进行适当的交流，减少结构化，减少及时性，更多地与人建立关系。

Howie Liu: But I actually find that having that common ..

Howie Liu：但我实际上发现有一个共同点..

It's almost a barbell approach where it's like if you're going to spend time with somebody in a freeform way, actually do it in a high quality, not forced weekly ritual way.

这几乎是一种杠铃方法，就像如果你要以一种自由的方式与某人共度时光，实际上是以一种高质量的方式去做，而不是强迫每周例行公事的方式。

Go for a longer lunch or coffee walk or whatever in person when you can.

如果可以的话，亲自去吃一次更长的午餐或喝杯咖啡或者其他什么。

Maybe that's a once every month or two kind of thing.

也许这是每个月或每两个月一次的事情。

And then the in-betweens are either topical, so we do have standing meetings for ...

然后中间的事情要么是话题性的，所以我们确实有常设会议……

Now, we have a weekly basically sprint check-in on all of our AI execution stuff, which now is half the company or half the EPD org is working on AI capabilities.

现在，我们基本上每周都会对所有人工智能执行内容进行一次冲刺检查，现在有一半的公司或一半的 EPD 组织正在研究人工智能功能。

Howie Liu: We're trying to ship very quickly, like I basically want to always ask the question, how would an AI native company, like a cursor or windsurf, et cetera, how would they execute?

Howie Liu：我们试图非常快地发货，就像我基本上总是想问这样一个问题，一家人工智能本土公司，比如光标或风帆等，他们将如何执行？

And are we executing as fast as them and taking advantage of all the new stuff as well as them?

我们的执行速度是否与他们一样快，并与他们一样充分利用所有新事物？

So bringing that level of intensity and urgency to how I spend my time within, that's been the biggest shift for me.

因此，将这种程度的强度和紧迫感带入我如何度过自己的时间，这对我来说是最大的转变。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's a change you've made to help the company move faster and match that sort of pace?

Lenny Rachitsky：为了帮助公司更快地发展并跟上这种节奏，您做了哪些改变？

Howie Liu: Yeah.

刘豪：是的。

I mean, we did do a reorg of the EPD org.

我的意思是，我们确实对环保署组织进行了重组。

So before we had ...

所以在我们之前...

we've gone through a few different reorgs over the past, call it, four years.

过去四年，我们经历了几次不同的重组。

The original state as we just proliferated, I think by default or incrementally, was that we had a bunch of groups that were each responsible for a feature or a surface area.

我认为，默认情况下或增量地，我们刚刚扩散时的原始状态是，我们有一堆组，每个组负责一个功能或一个表面区域。

So there was a group responsible for search within our table, and there was a group responsible for mobile experience and so on and so forth.

因此，我们的表中有一个小组负责搜索，还有一个小组负责移动体验等等。

And that has its benefits.

这有其好处。

Obviously, that team can go and get really ramped up on that part of the code base, that part of the product.

显然，该团队可以真正加强代码库的那部分、产品的那部分。

Howie Liu: But it has the disadvantage of yeah, you tend to think incrementally when everyone's remit is actually a feature that they incrementally improve by definition as opposed to thinking about a mission or a outcome goal that might need to coordinate dramatic changes across a wider set of surface areas instead of just each one incrementally improving.

Howie Liu：但它有一个缺点，是的，当每个人的职权范围实际上是他们根据定义逐步改进的一个功能时，你倾向于渐进地思考，而不是考虑可能需要协调更广泛的表面领域的巨大变化的任务或结果目标，而不是每个人都逐步改进。

And so, we reorged initially to basically different business units effectively.

因此，我们最初有效地重组为基本上不同的业务部门。

So I know Airbnb has done the functional to GM back, et cetera.

所以我知道 Airbnb 已经为 GM 完成了该功能，等等。

This was more like saying, "Look, we have an enterprise business" and them MO there is more about scalability.

这更像是说，“看，我们有一个企业业务”，而且他们还有更多关于可扩展性的内容。

Howie Liu: Can we support the larger scale data sets and use cases?

Howie Liu：我们可以支持更大规模的数据集和用例吗？

Do you have the core capabilities needed to be able to push out an app to maybe 10,000 seats or 20,000 seats for product operations?

您是否具备将应用程序推出到 10,000 个或 20,000 个席位进行产品运营所需的核心能力？

A lot of architecture, a lot of scale, that kind of work.

很多建筑，很多规模，诸如此类的工作。

We would have, what we call the teams filler, which is more about self-serve, kind of the product UX, how easy it is to adopt the product on board, share, do all the kind of basic functionality.

我们会有所谓的团队填充者，更多的是关于自助服务、产品用户体验、在船上采用产品、共享、执行所有基本功能是多么容易。

An AI pillar, solutions pillar, and basically infra.

人工智能支柱、解决方案支柱以及基础设施。

And what we found though with that approach is that there was still ...

但我们发现，通过这种方法，仍然......

there was more kind of holistic bets being made.

人们进行了更多类型的整体押注。

Howie Liu: So the team's pillar could think not just about one feature, but the overall onboarding experience where really about Nuxt in a way that touched multiple parts of the product, but it still felt like it wasn't ...

Howie Liu：所以团队的支柱不仅可以考虑一个功能，还可以考虑整体的入职体验，真正涉及 Nuxt 的方式涉及产品的多个部分，但仍然感觉不是......

Especially as we started to execute more on AI stuff, it wasn't allowing us to aggressively and quickly move as a AI native company would.

特别是当我们开始在人工智能方面执行更多操作时，它不允许我们像人工智能本土公司那样积极、快速地采取行动。

I mean, when you look at the cursors of the world, they're shipping major new stuff every week.

我的意思是，当你观察世界各地的光标时，他们每周都会发布重要的新东西。

And it's not like, "Oh, well we have this separate roadmap for enterprise, we have this roadmap for this group."

它不像，“哦，我们有这个单独的企业路线图，我们有这个团体的路线图。”

Howie Liu: And it just feels like one cohesive product that's shipping at a breakneck pace.

Howie Liu：感觉就像一个有凝聚力的产品，正在以极快的速度发货。

So we did this recent reorg where now we have what I call the fast thinking group, which officially is called AI platform, but it really means we want to just ship a bunch of new capabilities on a near weekly basis.

因此，我们最近进行了重组，现在我们拥有了我所说的快速思考小组，其正式名称为人工智能平台，但这实际上意味着我们希望每周发布一系列新功能。

And each of them should be truly awesome value.

它们中的每一个都应该具有真正令人敬畏的价值。

You should drop your jaw, how awesome it is to use this new capability in Airtable.

您一定会大吃一惊，在 Airtable 中使用这项新功能真是太棒了。

And then separately, we have the slow thinking group, and that's not meant to be better or worse.

然后单独来看，我们有思维缓慢的群体，这并不意味着更好或更坏。

It's literally like you need fast and slow thinking in the common sense to operate as a human.

从字面上看，就像你需要快速和缓慢的常识思维才能作为人类运作。

Howie Liu: Yeah, I love that book.

刘豪：是的，我喜欢那本书。

But slow thinking it's like, it's just a different mode of planning and executing, right?

但慢慢思考，这只是一种不同的计划和执行模式，对吧？

It's like more deliberate that require more premeditation.

就好像越是深思熟虑，就越需要有预谋。

We can't just ship a new piece of infrastructure that has a lot of data complexity like our data store HyperDB that now can handle multi-hundred million record data sets.

我们不能仅仅提供一个具有大量数据复杂性的新基础设施，例如我们的数据存储 HyperDB，它现在可以处理数亿条记录数据集。

That's not something you ship in a week in a hacky prototype.

这不是你在一个星期内用一个黑客原型就能交付的东西。

So we now have these two separate parts of the company, and I actually think what's really cool is they actually compliment each other very well, right?

所以我们现在拥有公司的这两个独立部门，我实际上认为真正酷的是他们实际上非常互相称赞，对吗？

Howie Liu: Because the fast execution, the AI stuff, that creates the top of funnel excitement that also inspires new use cases and new users to come to Airtable, including in large enterprise, right?

Howie Liu：因为快速执行、人工智能的东西，创造了漏斗顶部的兴奋，也激发了新的用例和新用户来到 Airtable，包括在大型企业中，对吗？

Enterprises can use this stuff too.

企业也可以使用这个东西。

It's not just like a SMB thing, but the slow thinking basically allows those initial seeds of adoption to Sprout and grow into much larger deployments.

这不仅仅是像中小企业的事情，但缓慢的思维基本上允许那些最初的采用种子发芽并成长为更大的部署。

Whereas I think a lot of the challenge for many of the AI native companies I've seen is that they could have a very wide top of funnel, like get all of this AI, tourist traffic.

然而我认为，我见过的许多人工智能本土公司面临的很多挑战是，他们可能拥有非常宽的漏斗顶部，比如获得所有这些人工智能、旅游流量。

Howie Liu: A lot of interest, a lot of early usage, but then sometimes the challenge is how do you turn that into more durable growth and get each of those adoption seeds to retain and expand over time.

Howie Liu：很多人感兴趣，很多早期使用，但有时挑战是如何将其转化为更持久的增长，并让每一个采用种子随着时间的推移而保留和扩展。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is super cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：那太酷了。

I've never heard of this way of structuring teams, the fast thinking, thinking fast, thinking slow, the Kahneman.

我从未听说过这种构建团队的方式，即快速思考、快速思考、缓慢思考，卡尼曼。

It's so interesting for the fast thinking team, do you find there's specific archetypes of people that are successful there?

这对于思维敏捷的团队来说非常有趣，您是否发现那里有成功人士的特定原型？

Is it a lot of bringing in new people that are not just used to the way of working at our table?

是否引进了很多不习惯我们餐桌工作方式的新人？

What do you find?

你发现了什么？

Howie Liu: We have a mix.

刘豪：我们有混合的。

So we brought in ...

所以我们引入了...

I mean, we're always hiring, right?

我的意思是，我们一直在招聘，对吧？

There was never a point in the company's life where we stopped hiring.

在公司的发展历程中，我们从来没有停止过招聘。

And candidly, even when we had to do two rifts, that's significantly reduced our head count.

坦白说，即使我们必须进行两次裂痕，这也会大大减少我们的人数。

We had just way too quickly grown and overscaled the business at a certain point.

我们的业务增长速度太快，在某个时候规模就扩大了。

But even when we did our rifts, we were still actively recruiting and hiring in ...

但即使我们产生了裂痕，我们仍然在积极招募和雇用......

I mean every major department, but especially in EPD, because it's always been my belief that it would be arrogant to say that we have all the people we ever need already in the roster today, right?

我指的是每个主要部门，尤其是环保署，因为我一直相信，如果说我们今天的名册上已经拥有了我们需要的所有人员，那就太傲慢了，对吗？

Howie Liu: We're always going to need to find new, fresh perspectives, new skillsets, et cetera.

Howie Liu：我们总是需要寻找新的视角、新的技能等等。

And so, we've continued to hire ...

因此，我们继续雇用......

I think we've learned as we've gone along of what is the ideal type of hire, and we've done some actual hires and learned from that as well.

我认为我们已经了解了什么是理想的招聘类型，我们也进行了一些实际的招聘并从中吸取了教训。

But I think the fast thinking part, it really just requires a lot of ...

但我认为快速思考部分，它真的只需要很多......

Somebody who's able to operate with a lot of autonomy, who's entrepreneurial in nature.

能够拥有很大自主权的人，本质上具有企业家精神。

Now, it doesn't mean they have to literally be a former founder.

现在，这并不意味着他们必须是字面上的前创始人。

I know some companies are, like Rippling for instance, does a lot of actual acquisitions and gets actual founders into the company.

我知道有些公司，例如 Rippling，进行了大量实际收购，并让真正的创始人加入公司。

Howie Liu: We found that that's great and we've done some of that as well.

Howie Liu：我们发现这很棒，我们也做了一些。

But also there are some really, really capable people who we didn't literally have to acquire in, and yet, they're just able to think full stack about the problem and the user experience.

但也有一些非常非常有能力的人，我们实际上不需要招募他们，但他们却能够对问题和用户体验进行全栈思考。

Problem, not just meaning the technical layers of the problem, but also, what is the wow factor we're trying to create.

问题，不仅意味着问题的技术层面，还意味着我们试图创造的令人惊叹的因素是什么。

So tangibly we're doing this new thing that's about to ship, where not only can you describe the app you want to build and then iterate on it with our conversational agent Omni.

因此，我们正在做一项即将发布的新产品，您不仅可以描述您想要构建的应用程序，然后与我们的对话代理 Omni 对其进行迭代。

Howie Liu: And it builds it with the existing air table platform capabilities, but we're also giving it the ability to actually do code gen, to extend those apps with really final mile very bespoke functionality or visuals.

Howie Liu：它使用现有的空中桌平台功能来构建它，但我们也赋予它实际进行代码生成的能力，以真正最后一英里的定制功能或视觉效果来扩展这些应用程序。

So you could say, "Hey, generate me a very, very specific type of map view with this kind of heat mapping and this kind of icons and ..."

所以你可以说，“嘿，给我生成一个非常非常具体类型的地图视图，其中包含这种热图和这种图标......”

Howie Liu: It's kind of like heat mapping and this kind of icons.

Howie Liu：有点像热图和这种图标。

And when you click it, do this.

当您单击它时，执行此操作。

And that's a capability that there's so much ambiguity in some of the design decisions around it.

这种能力在一些围绕它的设计决策中存在很多含糊之处。

And you have to blend that design thinking with some of the technical constraints of what can the AI models actually one shot effectively?

你必须将这种设计思维与一些技术限制相结合，即人工智能模型实际上可以有效地一次性完成什么？

Howie Liu: And if not, how do you add in the right human workflow for approval and review, and the reprompting and so on?

Howie Liu：如果没有，您如何添加正确的人工工作流程以进行批准和审查以及重新提示等？

So just so many different design decisions, and you need somebody who can really think full-stack about that kind of product and is not overwhelmed by that kind of open-endedness, but relishes in it.

因此，有这么多不同的设计决策，您需要一个能够真正对此类产品进行全栈思考的人，并且不会被这种开放性所淹没，而是乐在其中。

Lenny Rachitsky: I was actually playing with it before we started chatting.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们开始聊天之前，我实际上正在玩它。

I made a really cute startup CRM.

我做了一个非常可爱的启动 CRM。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, started talking Omni over here.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，开始在这里谈论 Omni。

It's like the colors are beautiful-

好像颜色很漂亮～

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

so that's what's standing out to me right now.

这就是现在对我来说最突出的事情。

Howie Liu: I will say just as a note, I consider myself at my core a product UX person.

Howie Liu：我想说的是，我认为自己本质上是一个产品用户体验人员。

That's my passion.

这就是我的热情。

And everything else I've had to learn to run this company is almost like what was a necessary part of the journey.

我必须学习经营这家公司的其他一切几乎就像是旅程中必要的部分。

But my real passion is thinking about product UX.

但我真正的热情是思考产品用户体验。

And I think of UX in a deeper sense than just the cosmetic design.

我对用户体验的理解不仅仅是外观设计。

What you could put into a framer kind of prototype.

您可以将什么放入成帧器类型的原型中。

I think of it as literally what should this product do and how should it represent that and behave for the user?

我认为它实际上是这个产品应该做什么以及它应该如何代表它并为用户表现？

That is the product, in my opinion, right.

在我看来，这就是产品，没错。

And of course, then you have to figure out technically what's possible and how to implement it.

当然，然后你必须弄清楚技术上什么是可能的以及如何实现它。

Howie Liu: But I think to me what's under executed today in the world of AI products is there's so many awesome capabilities of AI, and most of them are really under merchandise, and there's very poor, actually, visual or otherwise metaphors or affordances given to users to help represent or understand what those underlying capabilities are.

Howie Liu：但我认为，在今天的人工智能产品世界中，人工智能有很多令人敬畏的功能，但它们中的大多数实际上都在商品中，并且为用户提供的非常差的、实际上的、视觉的或其他隐喻或功能可供性来帮助表示或理解这些潜在的功能是什么。

I mean, ChatGPT obviously extremely successful product, so not knocking it at all, but you come in and you just get this completely blank chat box by default, and now they have suggestions underneath and so on.

我的意思是，ChatGPT 显然是非常成功的产品，所以根本不用敲它，但你进来后，默认情况下你只会看到这个完全空白的聊天框，现在他们在下面有建议等等。

Howie Liu: But the product UX part of me is just craving more visual metaphors or colors or some kind of use the canvas of a web interface and all the richness interaction you create there to better represent or show all the different things that you can do with the underlying model, right.

Howie Liu：但是我的产品用户体验部分只是渴望更多的视觉隐喻或颜色，或者某种形式使用网络界面的画布以及您在那里创建的所有丰富的交互，以更好地表示或展示您可以使用底层模型做的所有不同的事情，对吧。

And so that's something we've tried to do with Airtable, is show all of the different states and use colors even to play those up.

这就是我们尝试用 Airtable 做的事情，即显示所有不同的状态，甚至使用颜色来表现这些状态。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting how much of this connects with I just had Nick Turley on the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，这与我刚刚在播客上看到 Nick Turley 有多大关系。

He's head of ChatGPT at OpenAI, and he had these two really interesting insights that resonate directly with what you're describing.

他是 OpenAI ChatGPT 的负责人，他有两个非常有趣的见解，与您所描述的内容直接产生共鸣。

One is he has this concept of whenever something is being worked on, he's always asking, " Is this maximally accelerated?

一是他有这样的概念，即每当进行某项工作时，他总是会问：“这是否已最大限度地加速？

How do we move faster?

我们如何行动得更快？

If this is important, what would allow us to move faster?"

如果这很重要，那么什么能让我们行动得更快呢？”

Lenny Rachitsky: And I love that that's one of the themes that's coming up as you talk, is just this creating this very clear sense of speed.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你谈话时提出的主题之一，就是创造这种非常清晰的速度感。

And you even call it the fast-thinking team, like, "You are going to move fast." And then the other one is just this insight that with AI, you often don't know what it can do and what people want to do with it until it's out.

你甚至称其为快速思维团队，比如“你会快速行动”。另一个就是这样的见解：对于人工智能，在它出现之前，你通常不知道它能做什么，也不知道人们想用它做什么。

So there's this need to get it out, and that'll tell you what it should be.

所以需要把它拿出来，这会告诉你它应该是什么。

Howie Liu: I couldn't agree more with both of those, and particularly on the second point, I think it's interesting.

Howie Liu：我非常同意这两点，特别是第二点，我认为这很有趣。

Clearly, there have been companies that have both been successful in PLG and more sales-led distribution for AI products.

显然，有些公司在 PLG 和更多以销售为主导的人工智能产品分销方面都取得了成功。

The most notable ones I can think of are Palantir with their AIP deployments.

我能想到的最引人注目的是 Palantir 及其 AIP 部署。

That's obviously very sales-led.

这显然是非常以销售为主导的。

You're not PLG into a Palantir deployment.

您不是 PLG 参与 Palantir 部署。

But even companies like Harvey and so on, they're doing very well.

但即使是像 Harvey 等公司，他们也做得很好。

And it's primarily, from what I understand, sales-led.

据我了解，这主要是由销售主导的。

Howie Liu: You're not self- serving into a Harvey instance at a law firm.

Howie Liu：你不是在为律师事务所的哈维实例自私。

And yet, to me, the best way to get AI value out there is experientially, right.

然而，对我来说，获得人工智能价值的最佳方式是通过体验，对吧。

And so you can kind of get that in a sales motion.

所以你可以通过销售动议来实现这一点。

You can show a demo.

您可以展示一个演示。

Maybe you can do a POC, but it's so much more powerful when you just open up the doors and say, "Anyone who wants to come and sign up and trial this product can." And I think to me, it's a real proof point that ChatGPT is arguably the most successful kind of PLG product of all time, just in terms of sheer scale of users.

也许您可以进行 POC，但是当您打开大门并说：“任何想来注册并试用该产品的人都可以”时，它的功能就会强大得多。我认为对我来说，这确实证明了 ChatGPT 可以说是有史以来最成功的 PLG 产品，仅就用户规模而言。

Like they announced 700 million...

就像他们宣布的7亿...

Is it MAUs or week...

是月活跃用户数还是周...

I think it's actually-

我认为这实际上是——

Lenny Rachitsky: 10% of humans on earth use it-

Lenny Rachitsky：地球上 10% 的人类使用它-

Howie Liu: That's insane.

刘豪：这太疯狂了。

In how many years?

几年后？

A few years.

几年了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Three years.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：三年。

Under three years.

不满三年。

Howie Liu: Yeah.

刘豪：是的。

So I mean, literally, that is just the most insane ramp curve.

所以我的意思是，从字面上看，这只是最疯狂的斜坡曲线。

And I don't think they would've gotten there if you couldn't just come in and literally try the product out.

我认为，如果你不能直接进来并真正试用该产品，他们就不会到达那里。

And as a little bit of a rebuttal of the point I made earlier where I think ChatGPT doesn't do a ton right now, and even earlier they did even less to expose all the different ways you could use it, but they just made it so frictionless to just try it for yourself that you as a user could come in and just literally ask it anything and see how it did.

作为对我之前提出的观点的一点反驳，我认为 ChatGPT 现在并没有做很多事情，甚至更早的时候，他们甚至更少地公开你可以使用它的所有不同方式，但他们只是让你自己尝试它变得如此简单，你作为一个用户可以进来，只是问它任何问题，看看它是如何做的。

And of course, people in the early days tried to stump it and showed, "Oh look, see, it's not that smart.

当然，早期的人们试图难倒它并表现出，“哦，看，看，这不是那么聪明。

It doesn't answer this hard question really well."

它并不能很好地回答这个难题。”

Howie Liu: But clearly, the magical nature of it still appealed to you enough.

刘豪：但显然，它的神奇本质还是足够吸引你的。

Everybody used it.

每个人都用过它。

And so I think I do have a view.

所以我想我确实有一个观点。

We've gone through that whole arc of we started PLG.

我们已经经历了启动 PLG 的整个过程。

I'd like to think Airtable was one of the PLG darlings of our era.

我认为 Airtable 是我们这个时代 PLG 的宠儿之一。

And anyway, I started moving up market and doing more sales execution, although that was still always on top of usually PLG within an enterprise, but we started doing more and more sales execution.

不管怎样，我开始向高端市场迈进，并进行更多的销售执行，尽管这仍然始终位于企业内的 PLG 之上，但我们开始进行越来越多的销售执行。

We still have that.

我们还有那个。

That's still really important for our business.

这对我们的业务仍然非常重要。

But I also think, me personally, one of my goals is to shift my attention back into that kind of builder-led adoption and literally showing in the product experientially, not telling in a deck, the value that you can get from AI and Airtable.

但我个人也认为，我的目标之一是将我的注意力重新转移到构建者主导的采用上，并在产品中以体验方式真实地展示您可以从 AI 和 Airtable 获得的价值，而不是在套牌中讲述。

Howie Liu: I think that's so key, and it's , but it's also more than that.

Howie Liu：我认为这非常关键，而且还不止于此。

It's not just literally how do you onboard somebody into the product.

这不仅仅是字面意义上的如何让某人加入产品的问题。

It's literally thinking about the entire product experience itself, right.

它实际上是在考虑整个产品体验本身，对吧。

And in our case, we just made the entire product experience AI-centric.

在我们的案例中，我们只是让整个产品体验以人工智能为中心。

It used to be that we had kind of this secondary thing that you could ask questions to the assistant sidebar.

过去我们有一个次要的事情，你可以向助理侧边栏提问。

We now made our agent the default way of doing everything in Airtable, and it's now the Airtable app, as you know, it is almost like an artifact that's manipulated by and can be tool used by the agent.

现在，我们将代理设置为在 Airtable 中执行所有操作的默认方式，现在它是 Airtable 应用程序，如您所知，它几乎就像一个由代理操纵并可以作为代理使用的工具。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me follow that thread.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我继续关注这个话题。

So if you go to Airtable.com today, it looks like basically all the other AI app building sites.

因此，如果您今天访问 Airtable.com，它看起来基本上与所有其他人工智能应用程序构建网站都一样。

Now it's just tell me what you want to build.

现在只需告诉我您想要构建什么即可。

Thoughts on that, as just a thing everyone's starting to do is there...

对此的想法，就像每个人都开始做的事情一样......

what do you think comes next?

你认为接下来会发生什么？

Is this...

这是……

Is it working well?

运作良好吗？

Howie Liu: There's clearly an incredible magic to vibe coding and app building with AI.

Howie Liu：使用人工智能进行编码和应用程​​序构建显然具有令人难以置信的魔力。

And this is actually a prime illustration in my view of that concept we talked about a second ago, which is as capabilities of these underlying models evolve, the form factor in the product UX also needs to evolve with it.

这实际上是我对我们刚才讨论的概念的一个主要说明，即随着这些底层模型的功能的发展，产品用户体验中的外形因素也需要随之发展。

And so the earliest models, like the kind of original ChatGPT, like GPT-3.5 kind of era models were not nearly as smart as the current models.

因此，最早的模型，比如原始的 ChatGPT，比如 GPT-3.5 时代的模型，远没有现在的模型那么智能。

And so you couldn't really ask it to one shot a more complicated chunk of code, or certainly not like a full stack app, and expect it to work.

因此，你不能真正要求它一次性完成更复杂的代码块，或者肯定不像一个完整的堆栈应用程序，并期望它能够工作。

Howie Liu: And so the right form factor for leveraging those models in a software creation context was GitHub Copilot, right.

Howie Liu：因此，在软件创建环境中利用这些模型的正确形式是 GitHub Copilot，对吧。

It's like auto-complete a few lines of code at a time.

这就像一次自动完成几行代码。

But you couldn't chat to it and tell it, "Build me this entire app from scratch." And I think that as the models got better and better, you saw that the new form factors emerge.

但你无法与它聊天并告诉它“从头开始为我构建整个应用程序”。我认为随着模型变得越来越好，你会看到新的外形因素出现。

I think Cursor did a great job of being an early pioneer of this more age agentic way of leveraging the models to do more complex things and generate more larger chunks of code.

我认为 Cursor 做得很好，它是这种更古老的代理方式的早期先驱，利用模型来做更复杂的事情并生成更多更大的代码块。

Howie Liu: And now with Composer, you can literally just go into Cursor and build an app from scratch, build me a 3D shooter game from scratch, and just watch it go and create all the files and fill out each file, and then the thing actually runs some of the time.

Howie Liu：现在有了 Composer，你实际上可以直接进入 Cursor 并从头开始构建一个应用程序，从头开始为我构建一个 3D 射击游戏，然后看着它创建所有文件并填写每个文件，然后它实际上会在某些时候运行。

And so to me, this is where the world is going.

对我来说，这就是世界的发展方向。

The models are clearly getting smarter.

模型显然变得更加智能。

And if you think about the original vision of Airtable, it was always about democratizing software creation.

如果你想想 Airtable 的最初愿景，你会发现它始终是关于软件创建的民主化。

We just strongly believed that the number of people who use apps far outweighs the number of people who can actually build their own or manipulate apps and harness custom software to their advantage.

我们坚信，使用应用程序的人数远远超过能够真正构建自己的或操作应用程序并利用自定义软件来发挥其优势的人数。

Lenny Rachitsky: That sounds very familiar, very familiar these days.

Lenny Rachitsky：这听起来非常熟悉，现在非常熟悉。

Howie Liu: Yeah, exactly.

刘豪：是的，完全正确。

And so I think this is, it's a different means to the same end.

所以我认为这是达到同一目的的不同手段。

And so it's almost like we have to lean into this because if we started Airtable today, this is what we would be all in on.

因此，我们几乎必须专注于此，因为如果我们今天启动 Airtable，这就是我们将全力以赴的方向。

Now I think that the advantage that we have, and I do think you have to be realistic to yourself, especially as a company that predates GenAI and now has to find your new footing in the AI landscape.

现在我认为我们拥有的优势，而且我确实认为你必须对自己现实一点，特别是作为一家早于 GenAI 的公司，现在必须在人工智能领域找到新的立足点。

You can't fool yourself and just say like, "Okay, I'm going to throw in some AI stuff on the landing...

你不能欺骗自己，然后说：“好吧，我要在着陆点上放一些人工智能的东西......

on the marketing site, put in a couple AI features, and call it a day."

在营销网站上添加一些人工智能功能，然后就到此为止了。”

Howie Liu: I think you actually have to take a clean slate approach to saying, "How would our mission best be expressed?

Howie Liu：我认为你实际上必须采取一种全新的方式来表达：“如何最好地表达我们的使命？

If you were literally founding a new company from scratch with the same mission, how would you execute on that mission using a fully AI native approach?" And then, by the way, do you have useful building blocks that you can leverage from your existing product and your existing business, or are you literally worse off having this legacy asset versus starting something from scratch?

如果你从头开始创建一家新公司，肩负同样的使命，你将如何使用完全人工智能原生方法来执行该使命？”然后，顺便说一句，您是否拥有可以从现有产品和现有业务中利用的有用构建模块，或者您实际上拥有这种遗留资产比从头开始更糟糕吗？

And I don't think the answer is always yes or no. I think it just depends on the product.

我认为答案并不总是肯定或否定的。我认为这仅取决于产品。

Howie Liu: And if you can't really introspect and say, "Look, I think I'm better off doing this with the pieces that I have for my existing business and product," then I think you should sell.

Howie Liu：如果你不能真正反省并说，“听着，我认为我最好用我现有的业务和产品的部分来做这件事”，那么我认为你应该卖掉。

You should find a buyer for that company and then go.

你应该为那家公司找到买家然后走。

And if you really care about this mission, go and start the next carnation of it.

如果你真的关心这个使命，那就去开始它的下一个康乃馨吧。

In my case, I really thought about this and really feel strongly that the building blocks that we have, these no code components, actually do allow us to execute better on this vision than if I had to start from scratch.

就我而言，我确实考虑过这一点，并且强烈地感觉到，我们拥有的构建块，这些无代码组件，实际上确实允许我们更好地实现这一愿景，而不是从头开始。

Howie Liu: Meaning the problem with vibe coding, especially if we're building business apps...

Howie Liu：意思是氛围编码的问题，特别是如果我们正在构建商业应用程序......

So I should clarify that we want to democratize software creation, but specifically, we are focused on business apps.

因此，我应该澄清，我们希望使软件创建民主化，但具体来说，我们专注于商业应用程序。

We're not trying to be the platform where you create a cool viral consumer game.

我们并不是想成为一个让您创建炫酷的病毒式消费游戏的平台。

This is for like your CRM, right.

这适用于您的 CRM，对吧。

Or if you want to build an inventory management system as a small restaurant or a lawyer trying to build a case management system, that's what we've always been focused on.

或者，如果您想像一家小餐馆一样构建库存管理系统，或者想像律师一样尝试构建案件管理系统，这就是我们一直关注的重点。

And I think in this AI-native world, clearly, you should be able to generate those apps agentically.

我认为，在这个人工智能原生的世界中，显然，你应该能够代理地生成这些应用程序。

Howie Liu: And yet if you have an agent that has to generate every single bit of that app from scratch, from code, it's going to be very unreliable.

Howie Liu：然而，如果您有一个代理必须从头开始从代码生成该应用程序的每一个部分，那么它将非常不可靠。

There's going to be bugs.

会有 bug。

There's going to be data and security issues.

将会出现数据和安全问题。

And then you're also going to have a context collapse, as it just cannot manage all of the code that it's written, basically, as the app gets more and more complex.

然后，您还将遇到上下文崩溃，因为基本上，随着应用程序变得越来越复杂，它无法管理其编写的所有代码。

And what we actually have are basically these primitives that the agent can manipulate and use without having to literally write the code from scratch to represent, "Here's a beautiful crud interface on top of the data layer.

我们实际上拥有的基本上是代理可以操纵和使用的这些原语，而无需从头开始编写代码来表示，“这是数据层顶部的一个漂亮的 CRUD 接口。

Howie Liu: Ours is real-time and collaborative, and really rich, and has collaboration on it.

Howie Liu：我们的是实时的、协作的，而且非常丰富，并且有协作。

And by the way, here's all these other view types and a layout engine for a custom interface, a layout, or automations and business logic." And so it's almost like in programming terms, the Airtable pieces in our Lego kit today can be used by this agent as almost like a more expressive DSL, like a domain-specific language to build business apps instead of literally having to write everything down to the SQL and HTML and JavaScript to build every part of that app from scratch.

顺便说一句，这里有所有其他视图类型以及用于自定义界面、布局或自动化和业务逻辑的布局引擎。”因此，这几乎就像在编程术语中一样，今天的乐高套件中的 Airtable 部件可以被该代理用作更具表现力的 DSL，就像一种特定于领域的语言来构建业务应用程序，而不是必须将所有内容写成 SQL、HTML 和 JavaScript 来从头开始构建该应用程序的每个部分。

Howie Liu: And so if we can combine the best of both worlds, we have these very reliable, high-quality Lego pieces.

Howie Liu：因此，如果我们能够结合两全其美，我们就能拥有这些非常可靠、高品质的乐高积木。

Now, an agent can go and assemble them for you instead of you just using the GUI to do that.

现在，代理可以为您组装它们，而不是您仅使用 GUI 来完成此操作。

And by the way, if you do want to fall back to the GUI, there's a really great kind of way for the non-technical user to still understand and participate in what's going on.

顺便说一句，如果您确实想退回到 GUI，那么有一种非常好的方法可以让非技术用户仍然理解并参与正在发生的事情。

Whereas if you're not technical, you can't inspect the code underneath a v0 or Lovable or Revolut app, right.

然而，如果您不懂技术，您就无法检查 v0、Lovable 或 Revolut 应用程序下面的代码，对吧。

Howie Liu: It's just kind of opaque to you.

Howie Liu：这对你来说有点不透明。

And if you can't re- prop it to get what you want, you're kind of stuck.

如果你不能重新支撑它来得到你想要的东西，你就会陷入困境。

This is much more akin to a developer using Cursor can generate lots of code, but then can still drop back to the IDE to edit and manipulate it to the final production-ready state.

这更类似于使用 Cursor 的开发人员可以生成大量代码，但随后仍然可以返回 IDE 进行编辑和操作以达到最终的生产就绪状态。

So that's kind of the play that we're making.

这就是我们正在制作的游戏。

And if I didn't fully and truly believe we have a better shot at doing it with our existing product, I wouldn't be running this company in its form today.

如果我没有完全、真正地相信我们有更好的机会用我们现有的产品做到这一点，我就不会以今天的形式经营这家公司。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm talking to a lot of founders that are going through the journey are going on, which is, "We've had a business for a decade, AI emerged, and wow, we got to figure out something that works...

Lenny Rachitsky：我正在和很多正在经历这一旅程的创始人交谈，那就是，“我们的业务已经有十年了，人工智能出现了，哇，我们必须找出一些可行的东西......

that could work even better." And so I'm trying to pull out the threads that are consistently working across these journeys because I think a lot of companies are trying to figure this out.

所以我试图找出在这些旅程中始终有效的线索，因为我认为很多公司都在试图解决这个问题。

So one that you just touched on is just if you were to start today, what will you do?

您刚才提到的一个问题是，如果您从今天开始，您会做什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: What would that business be?

Lenny Rachitsky：那会是什么生意？

Plus, how can...

另外，怎么能...

do we have an unfair advantage with the thing we've done in the past?

我们过去所做的事情是否具有不公平的优势？

That feels like an important ingredient.

这感觉像是一个重要的成分。

And then the other...

然后另一个...

circling back to stuff you've shared already, there's just creating a sense of urgency and pace and getting people to understand this is how things move in AI, and we need to create this fast-thinking team.

回到你已经分享过的东西，这只是创造一种紧迫感和节奏，让人们理解这就是人工智能的发展方式，我们需要创建这个思维敏捷的团队。

I love that metaphor in framing.

我喜欢框架中的比喻。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then there's the point you made about just talking to AI regularly as the founder feels like an important element, just like to truly be this ICCO talking to AI, working with AI regularly.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后你提到了定期与人工智能交谈的观点，因为创始人觉得自己是一个重要的元素，就像真正成为与人工智能交谈、定期与人工智能合作的 ICCO。

Just on that note a little bit more, just to give people a sense of what this looks like day to day.

只是在这一点上多说一点，只是为了让人们了解这每天是什么样子。

So you're talking to Omni all day trying to and undertook...

所以你整天都在和 Omni 交谈，试图并承诺......

flex the power of what you can do and iterate on it.

发挥你能做的事情的力量并迭代它。

Is there anything else you're doing day to day that helps you figure out what to do for the business?

您每天所做的其他事情是否可以帮助您弄清楚为企业做些什么？

Howie Liu: One, I try to use as many different AI products, including not Airtable, as I can, and both literally for the novelty factor and just some new cool demo comes out.

Howie Liu：第一，我尝试尽可能多地使用不同的人工智能产品，包括不使用 Airtable，这既是为了新颖性，也是为了一些新的很酷的演示。

Like Runway release their immersive world engine, and so I'm going to go try it out.

就像 Runway 发布了他们的沉浸式世界引擎，所以我要去尝试一下。

When Sesame AI put out their cool interactive voice chat demo, I tried that out because even though we don't have a direct and near-term need for really realistic and interruptible voice mode where it's not as core to our capabilities, I just want to understand and get a feel for everything that's out there.

当 Sesame AI 推出他们很酷的交互式语音聊天演示时，我尝试了这一点，因为尽管我们短期内没有对真正现实和可中断的语音模式的直接需求，因为它不是我们功能的核心，但我只是想了解并感受一下现有的一切。

Howie Liu: And I try to invent little, almost like side projects of my own, to have a real reason to use these products.

Howie Liu：我尝试做一些小发明，几乎就像我自己的副业项目一样，以便有一个使用这些产品的真正理由。

Like, "Oh, cool.

就像，“哦，酷。

What if I were to take...

如果我要采取...

What if I were to try to create a funny little short...

如果我尝试创作一部有趣的小短片怎么办？

a funny video short using a combination of HeyGen avatars with a script, like a comical script generated by AI?

将 HeyGen 头像与脚本结合起来的有趣视频短片，就像人工智能生成的滑稽脚本一样？

And maybe it'll be on an interesting topic.

也许它会是一个有趣的话题。

So I'll do deep research on the topic with ChatGPT and pull together the results, have it compose kind of a little dialogue.

因此，我将使用 ChatGPT 对这个主题进行深入研究，并将结果汇​​总起来，让它组成一些对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Did you actually do this?

Lenny Rachitsky：你真的这么做了吗？

Is there something you made?

有你做的东西吗？

Howie Liu: Yeah.

刘豪：是的。

That's literally an example of something, just a fun weekend project.

这实际上是一个例子，只是一个有趣的周末项目。

And to be honest, these things only take you an hour if you become kind of pretty proficient with using the products.

老实说，如果您相当熟练地使用这些产品，这些事情只需要您一个小时。

They're all so easy to use.

它们都很容易使用。

You can literally do the deep research thing, kick off query, make a coffee, come back in 20 minutes.

您实际上可以进行深入的研究，开始查询，泡杯咖啡，20 分钟后回来。

Okay, let me prompt it to generate me some dialogue.

好的，让我提示它生成一些对话。

It's a little bit like what NotebookLM does for you out of the box, but sometimes I like to just do it myself.

这有点像 NotebookLM 开箱即用的功能，但有时我喜欢自己做。

And then, okay, let me take the script and cut it up and turn it into a HeyGen avatar and then download the video and play it.

然后，好吧，让我把剧本剪下来，变成 HeyGen 头像，然后下载视频并播放。

Howie Liu: And just for fun.

Howie Liu：只是为了好玩。

I'm not trying to make that into an actual YouTube video business.

我并不是想把它变成一个真正的 YouTube 视频业务。

But I think coming up with these different fun weekend projects is a really useful construct to force myself to actually try these products in a more than just a Twitch click way.

但我认为提出这些不同的有趣的周末项目是一个非常有用的结构，可以迫使自己以不仅仅是 Twitch 点击的方式实际尝试这些产品。

And what it gives me is, A, it's not just understanding the models, which is also very, very important, right.

它给我的是，A，它不仅仅是理解模型，这也是非常非常重要的，对吧。

GPT-5 came out yesterday, and playing around with it a bunch just on a variety of different personal use cases, but there's a difference between just understanding the model but then also understanding the product form factors in which they can be placed, right.

GPT-5 昨天发布了，并且在各种不同的个人用例上进行了很多尝试，但是仅仅了解模型和了解可以放置它们的产品外形因素之间是有区别的，对吧。

Howie Liu: Meaning when you apply the model in a more structured way, when you apply the model with different tool calling than maybe what ChatGPT has in its out-of-the-box form, when you apply it with a more agentic workflow, again, that might be different from what ChatGPT gives you out-of-the-box, that's when you kind of learn you really get to inspire yourself on what are the product's form factors that these new models can take.

Howie Liu：意思是，当您以更结构化的方式应用模型时，当您使用与 ChatGPT 开箱即用形式不同的工具调用来应用模型时，当您使用更代理的工作流程来应用模型时，这可能与 ChatGPT 为您提供的开箱即用的不同，这时您就会了解到，您真正能够激发自己了解这些新模型可以采用的产品外形因素。

And plus, by the way, I find it to be really fun.

另外，顺便说一句，我发现它真的很有趣。

There is to me a delight and entertainment value to just using AI, period, because A, it's not perfectly predictable.

对我来说，仅仅使用人工智能就有一种乐趣和娱乐价值，因为 A，它不是完全可预测的。

Howie Liu: So I think the element of you're not quite sure what you're going to get.

Howie Liu：所以我认为你不太确定你会得到什么。

It's like a box of chocolates.

它就像一盒巧克力。

And B, it always blows my mind just to think about, "Wow, five years ago we didn't have any of this stuff." AI was like, okay, it's like we can do predictive analytics.

B，一想到“哇，五年前我们还没有这些东西”，我总是大吃一惊。人工智能就像，好吧，就像我们可以进行预测分析一样。

There's some basically very advanced kind of regressions that we could run with AI, but it looked nothing like this in its current form, and it's just actually super fun, in my opinion, to get to play around with all the different types of products that come out.

我们可以使用人工智能运行一些基本上非常先进的回归，但它在目前的形式中看起来完全不像这样，而且在我看来，尝试使用所有不同类型的产品实际上非常有趣。

Howie Liu: I think that is a big part of it because on the point about the pace of the world moving so much faster in AI than any other landscape in SaaS, in the mature SaaS era, it was important to study your competition.

Howie Liu：我认为这是其中很重要的一部分，因为人工智能领域的世界发展速度比 SaaS 领域的任何其他领域都快得多，在成熟的 SaaS 时代，研究你的竞争对手非常重要。

If you were building a SaaS company, you'd be crazy not to follow Salesforce every year and see what the major releases they're putting out are, or ServiceNow, or so on.

如果您要建立一家 SaaS 公司，如果您不每年关注 Salesforce 并了解他们发布的主要版本是什么，或者 ServiceNow 等，那您就太疯狂了。

Howie Liu: This is the equivalent of that, but there's major new releases and products and so on every week, not every year.

Howie Liu：这与此相当，但是每周都会有重大的新版本和产品等等，而不是每年。

And so I just think you have to say abreast of all...

所以我认为你必须同时说……

of it all and combining this with our point earlier of a lot of this has to be experienced, not just read.

这一切，并将其与我们之前的观点结合起来，其中很多内容都必须经历，而不仅仅是阅读。

You can't just read the write-up on TechCrunch or even a tweet about a new capability.

您不能只阅读 TechCrunch 上的文章，甚至不能阅读有关新功能的推文。

You kind of have to try it to really get a sense of what it is.

你必须尝试一下才能真正了解它是什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by Anthropic, the team behind Claude.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目是由 Claude 背后的团队 Anthropic 为您带来的。

I use Claude at least 10 times a day.

我每天至少使用 Claude 10 次。

I use it for researching my podcast guests, for brainstorming title ideas for both my podcast and my newsletter, for getting feedback on my writing, and all kinds of stuff.

我用它来研究我的播客嘉宾，集思广益地讨论我的播客和时事通讯的标题想法，获取关于我的写作的反馈，以及各种东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just last week, I was preparing for an interview with a very fancy guest, and I had Claude tell me what are all the questions that other podcast hosts have asked this guest so that I don't ask them these questions.

Lenny Rachitsky：就在上周，我正准备采访一位非常出色的嘉宾，我让克劳德告诉我其他播客主持人问过这位嘉宾的所有问题，这样我就不会问他们这些问题。

How much time do you spend every week trying to synthesize all of your user research insights, support tickets, sales calls, experiment results, and competitive intel?

您每周花费多少时间来综合所有用户研究见解、支持请求、销售电话、实验结果和竞争情报？

Claude can handle incredibly complex multistep work.

克劳德可以处理极其复杂的多步骤工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: You can throw a hundred-page strategy document at it and ask it for insights, or you can dump all your user research and ask it to find patterns.

Lenny Rachitsky：你可以向它扔一份一百页的策略文档并要求它提供见解，或者你可以转储所有用户研究并要求它寻找模式。

With Claude 4 and the new integrations, including Claude 4 Opus, the world's best coding model, you get voice conversations, advanced research capabilities, direct Google Workspace integration, and now MCP connections to your custom tools and data sources.

借助 Claude 4 和新的集成（包括世界上最好的编码模型 Claude 4 Opus），您可以获得语音对话、高级研究功能、直接的 Google Workspace 集成，以及现在与自定义工具和数据源的 MCP 连接。

Lenny Rachitsky: Claude just becomes part of your workflow.

Lenny Rachitsky：克劳德只是成为您工作流程的一部分。

If you want to try it out, get started at Claude.ai/Lenny.

如果您想尝试一下，请从 Claude.ai/Lenny 开始。

And using this link, you get an incredible 50% off your first three months of the pro plan.

使用此链接，您可以在专业计划的前三个月享受令人难以置信的 50% 折扣。

That's Claude.ai/Lenny.

这是 Claude.ai/Lenny。

For people that work for you across Airtable, say the product team, PMs, maybe engineers, designers, how have you adjusted what you expect of them to help them be successful in this new world?

对于 Airtable 中为您工作的人员，例如产品团队、产品经理，也许还有工程师、设计师，您如何调整对他们的期望，以帮助他们在这个新世界中取得成功？

Howie Liu: One is really, really, really stressing this idea of go play with this stuff.

Howie Liu：我们真的非常非常强调去玩这些东西的想法。

And I mean, when I say play, I really mean play in the psychological sense of there's a difference when you go in and you're kind of just trying to check the box and get a job done.

我的意思是，当我说玩时，我真正指的是心理意义上的玩，当你进去时，你只是想检查方框并完成工作，这是有区别的。

There's a difference when you come in with a curiosity and you're kind of exploring, right.

当你带着好奇心和探索精神进来时，情况就会有所不同，对吧。

And it's both more fun and energizing, but also, I think you learn more through that.

它既更有趣，也更充满活力，而且，我认为你可以通过它学到更多。

And so I've really tried to stress the value of play with these AI products.

因此，我确实试图强调这些人工智能产品的游戏价值。

Howie Liu: And I kind of try to lead by example, by literally going and sharing out links or screenshots of the things that I'm doing in these various products.

Howie Liu：我尝试以身作则，通过逐字逐句地分享我在这些不同产品中所做的事情的链接或屏幕截图。

So, as an example, I will go into one of the prototyping tools and show, "Hey, I built a marketing landing page for this new capability we're launching." I created a landing page for it in Replit, let's say, and now I'm sharing that link.

因此，作为一个例子，我将进入其中一个原型设计工具并展示，“嘿，我为我们即将推出的这项新功能构建了一个营销登陆页面。”比方说，我在 Replit 中为其创建了一个登陆页面，现在我正在分享该链接。

Instead of what typically we would've done in the past is like, okay, we're going to write a doc about it and then share the doc, I'm just going to show you an actual landing page with visuals and everything in there.

我们过去通常会做的事情是，好吧，我们将编写一个关于它的文档，然后共享该文档，我只是向您展示一个包含视觉效果和其中所有内容的实际登陆页面。

Howie Liu: Or I'll share the actual link to my deep research reports.

Howie Liu：或者我会分享我的深度研究报告的实际链接。

Or instead of me writing a perfect memo on a topic, I'll actually just prompt my way into getting a chat thread or a chat output that basically covers all the content that I care about and maybe even ask it to, "Okay, summarize this all into a final memo output," and then intentionally share that rather than expose the fact that I'm using AI in this way and here's literally how I'm prompting it so you can follow along as well.

或者，我实际上不会就某个主题编写完美的备忘录，而是会提示我获取聊天线程或聊天输出，该聊天线程或聊天输出基本上涵盖了我关心的所有内容，甚至可能会要求它，“好吧，将这一切总结为最终的备忘录输出”，然后有意分享，而不是暴露我以这种方式使用人工智能的事实，这就是我如何提示的方式，以便您也可以跟随。

Howie Liu: But really trying to encourage everyone to go and just play with these products.

Howie Liu：但实际上是在鼓励每个人去尝试这些产品。

And I've even said, "Look, if anyone wants to just literally block out a day or frankly even a week and have the ultimate excuse, you could use...

我什至说过，“听着，如果有人想花一天甚至一周的时间并有最终的借口，你可以使用......

you could say that I told you to do it, right.

你可以说是我让你这么做的，对吧。

If you want to cancel all your meetings for a day or for an entire week and just go play around with every product, AI product that you can find that you think could be relevant to Airtable, go do it.

如果您想取消一天或一整周的所有会议，然后尝试一下您认为可能与 Airtable 相关的每个产品、人工智能产品，那就去做吧。

Period.

期间。

So I think that's the most important thing is this play, this experimentation.

所以我认为最重要的是这个戏剧，这个实验。

Howie Liu: I think there's also a lot of other kind of shifts in how we execute prototypes over decks.

Howie Liu：我认为我们在甲板上执行原型的方式也有很多其他类型的转变。

I want to see actual interactive demos because, again, it's hard to...

我想看到实际的交互式演示，因为，再次，很难......

In a deck or in a PRD, you could say, "Okay.

在套牌或 PRD 中，你可以说：“好吧。

Well, we're going to make Omni really good at handling this kind of app building." Okay, those are just words.

好吧，我们将使 Omni 真正擅长处理此类应用程序构建。”好吧，这些只是说说而已。

The real proof is in the pudding of like, "Okay, let me try it out on a few realistic prompts that I can imagine."

真正的证据就在这样的布丁中，“好吧，让我尝试一下我能想象到的一些现实提示。”

Howie Liu: And in a demo, in a real prototype, you can instantly try it out on unrealistic rather than golden pathy scenarios and see how it feels too.

Howie Liu：在演示中，在真实的原型中，您可以立即在不切实际的而不是黄金般的悲惨场景中进行尝试，看看它的感觉如何。

Does it feel too slow?

是不是感觉太慢了？

Do we need to expose more of the reasoning or steps that are happening behind the scenes?

我们是否需要揭露更多幕后发生的推理或步骤？

Create a progress bar or something like that.

创建一个进度条或类似的东西。

But it's really hard to get that feel of the product with anything but a functional prototype that really does, in an open-end way, use the AI to do whatever you put in.

但除了功能原型之外，很难获得产品的那种感觉，而功能原型确实以开放式的方式使用人工智能来做你输入的任何事情。

Howie Liu: So I think it's more like a experimentation playground it feels like how we need to execute, versus I think, in the past, it sometimes felt like a more deterministic resourcing and kind of timelines view of execution.

Howie Liu：所以我认为它更像是一个实验游乐场，感觉就像我们需要如何执行，而我认为在过去，有时感觉像是一种更具确定性的资源和执行的时间表视图。

We're going to put this many people on this problem, and this is the eight-week timeline to this milestone, and then we're going to ship in a quarter from now.

我们将投入这么多人来解决这个问题，这是实现这一里程碑的八周时间表，然后我们将在一个季度内发货。

And I think now the whole thing is just a lot more experimentation and iteration-driven.

我认为现在整个事情只是更多的实验和迭代驱动。

Lenny Rachitsky: Of the different functions on a product team, PM, engineering design, who has had the most success being more productive with these tools, and how do you think this will impact each of these three functions over time?

Lenny Rachitsky：在产品团队、PM、工程设计等不同职能部门中，谁在使用这些工具方面取得了最大的成功，提高了工作效率？随着时间的推移，您认为这将如何影响这三个职能部门？

Howie Liu: What I found is that it really does become more about individual attitude and maybe some polymathism.

Howie Liu：我发现，这确实更多地取决于个人态度，也许还有一些博学多才。

There's a strong advantage to any of those three roles who can kind of cross over into the other two, like the hybrid unicorn types.

这三个角色中的任何一个都有很强的优势，可以交叉到其他两个角色，比如混合独角兽类型。

Howie Liu: So if you're a designer who can be just technical enough to kind of be dangerous and understand a little bit of how these models work and how does tool calling work and all of this stuff, then you can actually design a concept or even prototype a concept, including in these prototyping tools that's much more interesting and maybe realistic than if you're just stuck in the flat like let me put something in a static design concept because I think designs have to be more interactive.

Howie Liu：所以，如果你是一名设计师，技术水平足以有点危险，并且了解一点这些模型如何工作、工具调用如何工作以及所有这些东西，那么你实际上可以设计一个概念，甚至原型化一个概念，包括在这些原型设计工具中，这比你只是困在公寓里更有趣，也可能更现实，比如让我在静态设计概念中放入一些东西，因为我认为设计必须更具互动性。

The whole...

整个...

The value of the product and the -

产品的价值和 -

Howie Liu: ...

刘浩威：……

the value of the product and the product functionality is in the interaction of it, right?

产品的价值和产品的功能就在于它们的相互作用，对吗？

Think about the design of Chachi Petite.

想想 Chachi Petite 的设计。

Again, it's the most basic design you could possibly imagine.

同样，这是您可以想象到的最基本的设计。

The real design actually is happening underneath the hood in how it responds to different queries and what happens after you fire off a prompt, right?

真正的设计实际上发生在它如何响应不同的查询以及发出提示后会发生什么，对吗？

So I think I found that there are people within each of these functions, there are engineers who are very good at thinking about product and experience and can go and prototype out the whole thing.

所以我想我发现每个职能部门都有人，有非常擅长思考产品和体验的工程师，并且可以对整个事情进行原型设计。

They're designers who can do the same.

他们是可以做同样事情的设计师。

Even if they can't literally code, they can prototype something out literally using a prototyping tool.

即使他们不能真正地编码，他们也可以使用原型设计工具来原型化一些东西。

Howie Liu: I think that's where AI tooling is also giving more advantage to people who can think in this way by equipping them with an alternative to actually having to go through the long hoops of learning CS, right?

Howie Liu：我认为人工智能工具也为那些能够以这种方式思考的人提供了更多优势，为他们提供了一种替代方案，让他们不必经历漫长的计算机科学学习过程，对吧？

Then PMs as well.

然后也PM。

I think there are some PMs who are really getting into the technical details and studying up on how does this stuff work and actually getting hands-on, rather than seeing the role as writing documents, writing PRDs.

我认为有些 PM 真正深入研究技术细节，研究这些东西是如何工作的，并实际动手实践，而不是将其角色视为编写文档、编写 PRD。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you see one of these roles, I don't know, being more in trouble than others, just like you need fewer of these people in the future potentially?

Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道，你是否认为其中一个角色比其他角色遇到更多麻烦，就像你将来可能需要更少的这些人一样？

Howie Liu: I think overall you can get more done with fewer people, and that's not to say we want to go and make the team smaller, but rather ...

Howie Liu：我认为总的来说，你可以用更少的人完成更多的事情，这并不是说我们想要缩小团队规模，而是......

the really cool thing for us and I think a lot of other companies is it's not like you have a finite set of things you need to do and execute on from a product standpoint, and okay, now I can do that with a 10th of people.

对我们和我认为许多其他公司来说，真正酷的事情是，从产品的角度来看，你不需要做和执行一组有限的事情，好吧，现在我可以用十分之一的人来做到这一点。

I mean, you could do that in a lot of cases, but for us, maybe it's also because we're a very meta product, right?

我的意思是，在很多情况下你都可以这样做，但对我们来说，也许这也是因为我们是一个非常元的产品，对吧？

We are the app platform with which you can build now any AI app with AI, right?

我们是您现在可以使用人工智能构建任何人工智能应用程序的应用程序平台，对吗？

The apps themselves leverage AI capabilities at runtime, whether it's to generate imagery for a creative production workflow or leveraging deep research, or AI-based crawling of the web to search for companies that match a certain criteria for your Dealflow app or something like that.

应用程序本身在运行时利用人工智能功能，无论是为创意制作工作流程生成图像，还是利用深入研究，或者基于人工智能的网络爬行来搜索与您的 Dealflow 应用程序或类似内容匹配的特定标准的公司。

Howie Liu: We can effectively leverage all of these other AI capabilities in this app platform, because by definition we're enabling our customers to build apps that have this wide range of AI capabilities.

Howie Liu：我们可以有效地利用这个应用程序平台中的所有其他人工智能功能，因为根据定义，我们正在使我们的客户能够构建具有广泛人工智能功能的应用程序。

But because of that, it's like we have a almost infinite set of possible AI capabilities that we could execute on, right?

但正因为如此，我们就好像拥有几乎无限的可以执行的人工智能功能，对吧？

I'm always telling the team like, "Look, the great news is it's like we have all these fruit trees and there's so many crazy low-hanging fruit, and you've got literally massive watermelons literally sitting on the ground and all you have to do is walk over 20 feet and pick it up instead of having to climb the really tall coconut tree to grab a hard coconut from 50 feet up.

我总是告诉团队，“看，好消息是，我们拥有所有这些果树，而且有很多疯狂的低垂水果，而且你实际上有巨大的西瓜坐在地上，你所要做的就是步行 20 英尺以上并把它捡起来，而不是爬上非常高的椰子树从 50 英尺高处抓取硬椰子。

So there's so many watermelons on the ground, just go out and start finding the biggest ones and attacking those, right?"

所以地上有这么多西瓜，只要出去找到最大的西瓜并攻击它们，对吗？”

Howie Liu: What that means is that if we can build this culture, and I do think it's a learnable way of operating, I really like to believe in the growth potential of any human and any individual.

Howie Liu：这意味着，如果我们能够建立这种文化，而且我确实认为这是一种可学习的运作方式，我真的很愿意相信任何人和任何个人的成长潜力。

I think if you really have a growth mindset, and that's why one of our most important core values is growth mindset, right?

我认为如果你真的有成长心态，这就是为什么我们最重要的核心价值观之一就是成长心态，对吗？

If you really have that growth mindset, I think especially if you're willing to put in the nights and weekends hours, or in my case I'm literally telling people like, take a full day off, take a full week off and learn this stuff, you can become more fluent in this way.

如果你真的有这种成长心态，我想特别是如果你愿意在晚上和周末投入时间，或者就我而言，我真的告诉人们，休息一整天，休息一周来学习这些东西，你可以通过这种方式变得更加流利。

I think then what we get is a team that can just go and work on more things in a much more leveraged and fast way, right?

我认为我们得到的是一个可以以更有杠杆和更快的方式去做更多事情的团队，对吗？

Howie Liu: So, I like to think people who are willing to jump on the train are just going to become more and more effective.

Howie Liu：所以，我认为那些愿意跳上火车的人只会变得越来越高效。

It's not like, oh, as a PM my role is becoming entirely irrelevant, right?

这并不是说，哦，作为产品经理，我的角色变得完全无关紧要，对吧？

No, it means that as a PM you need to start looking more like a hybrid PM prototyper who has some good design sensibilities.

不，这意味着作为 PM，您需要开始看起来更像是具有良好设计敏感性的混合 PM 原型师。

By the way, I think some of the best eng PM and design cultures respectively over the past even few decades have always been multidisciplinary in nature, right?

顺便说一句，我认为过去甚至几十年来一些最好的工程项目经理和设计文化本质上一直是多学科的，对吧？

The original PM spec at Google required the PMs to actually be somewhat technical so they could understand the engineering limitations of the product designs they wanted to make, and they had to be kind of designy, right?

Google 最初的 PM 规范要求 PM 实际上具有一定的技术性，以便他们能够了解他们想要制作的产品设计的工程限制，并且他们必须具有设计性，对吗？

Howie Liu: I remember my co-founder, Andrew, when he was in the APM program was always reading books about design, even down to visual design and color theory and that kind of thing, right?

Howie Liu：我记得我的联合创始人Andrew在参加APM项目时总是阅读有关设计的书籍，甚至包括视觉设计和色彩理论之类的东西，对吧？

So I think it's just a reminder that designers as well, some of the best designers through designer to Apple, including hardware designer, you have to understand some of the technical capabilities of how this stuff works, right?

所以我认为这只是提醒设计师，从设计师到苹果的一些最好的设计师，包括硬件设计师，你必须了解这些东西如何工作的一些技术能力，对吗？

If you're an engineer, I think some of the best engineers and maybe Stripe always had a very good engineering culture of engineers who could think about the product and business requirements.

如果你是一名工程师，我认为一些最好的工程师，也许 Stripe 总是拥有非常好的工程师工程师文化，他们可以考虑产品和业务需求。

In fact, on any given product group, at Stripe my understanding is that the DRI isn't always the PM as is traditionally the case in that triangle.

事实上，在任何给定的产品组中，在 Stripe，我的理解是 DRI 并不总是 PM，就像该三角中的传统情况一样。

Sometimes it's actually the engineer who's taking the product lead and saying, this is what we need to build.

有时，实际上是工程师在领导产品并说，这就是我们需要构建的。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, what I'm hearing is essentially the trend across product engineering design is each of those functions needs to get good at one of the other functions at least.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，我听到的本质上是整个产品工程设计的趋势，即每一项功能都需要至少擅长其中一项其他功能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Ideally you can do them all, but if you can just do one additional, so a PM becomes better at design, an engineer becomes better at product management.

Lenny Rachitsky：理想情况下，你可以做所有这些，但如果你能多做一项，那么产品经理就会变得更擅长设计，工程师也会变得更擅长产品管理。

Howie Liu: Well, I would actually go further and say I think you need to get decently good at all three.

Howie Liu：嗯，我实际上会更进一步说，我认为你需要在这三个方面都取得不错的成绩。

There's just a minimum baseline of if you're any one of those roles, you need to be minimally good at the other two, and then you can go deeper into your own specialty, right?

如果你是这些角色中的任何一个，那么只有一个最低限度的基线，你需要至少擅长其他两个角色，然后你就可以更深入地研究自己的专业，对吗？

You could be a designer who's really good at thinking about UX and interaction design, and then just good enough to be dangerous on thinking about what's technically possible and what is the product story around this feature.

您可能是一位真正擅长思考用户体验和交互设计的设计师，然后足够好去思考技术上的可能性以及围绕此功能的产品故事是什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

To do that, one piece of advice that comes up again and again in what you've been describing is use the tools constantly to see what's possible, and that will teach you a lot of these things.

为此，在您所描述的内容中一次又一次出现的一条建议是不断使用这些工具来看看有什么可能，这将教会您很多这些东西。

Howie Liu: I think, well, use the tools gives you exposure to what's possible, right?

Howie Liu：我认为，使用这些工具可以让你接触到可能性，对吧？

It's kind of like if you wanted to be a great industrial designer, and let's say, I mean, the chair is the ultimate hello world of industrial design, it's the canonical design object, you wouldn't just sit there in a vacuum with no familiarity with the materials that you can use, plywood, steel, whatever, or existing form factors of chairs trying to invent the world's best chair in a vacuum, right?

这有点像如果你想成为一名伟大的工业设计师，比方说，我的意思是，椅子是工业设计的终极世界，它是规范的设计对象，你不会只是坐在真空中，而不熟悉你可以使用的材料，胶合板，钢，无论什么，或现有的椅子形状因素，试图在真空中发明世界上最好的椅子，对吗？

You should go and first do a study of all of the best chairs out there today.

您应该首先研究一下当今所有最好的椅子。

Go look at an Eames chair, sit in it and try to examine it to reverse engineer how it was made, and just look at the prior art for that type of product.

去看一把伊姆斯椅，坐在里面，尝试对其进行逆向工程检查，看看它是如何制造的，然后看看该类型产品的现有技术。

That's how I see the go out and play with these products, and also, I think actually going and designing or implementing or executing is the best practice.

这就是我对出去玩这些产品的看法，而且，我认为实际去设计、实施或执行是最佳实践。

Howie Liu: So you can't just only go and look at other people's chairs, eventually you have to go and actually try building your own and then try building another one and another one and another one.

Howie Liu：所以你不能只是去看别人的椅子，最终你必须去实际尝试建造自己的椅子，然后尝试建造另一把、另一把、另一把。

So, I think that's where ...

所以，我认为这就是...

when I think about how I hone my own product UX sensibilities, I never ...

当我思考如何磨练自己的产品用户体验敏感性时，我从来没有......

and at that time that I was in school and then learning about this stuff, there wasn't really any good curriculum for UX, right?

当时我在学校学习这些东西，实际上没有任何好的用户体验课程，对吧？

It's not like there were great college classes to learn product UX.

大学里并没有什么很棒的课程来学习产品用户体验。

I mean, even CS was very academic in nature at that time, it wasn't applied software engineering, like build an app or whatever.

我的意思是，即使当时计算机科学本质上非常学术，它也不是应用软件工程，比如构建应用程序或其他什么。

Maybe now at some of the schools like Stanford, MIT, they have actually UXy type courses, but it's still a rarity for most people to have access to that.

也许现在在斯坦福大学、麻省理工学院等一些学校，他们实际上有 UXy 类型的课程，但对大多数人来说仍然很少有机会接触到这些课程。

Howie Liu: So, the way I learned all of my product sensibilities was just trial and error and also using and studying other products, and then going and trying to build my own weekend project ideas, right?

Howie Liu：所以，我学习所有产品敏感性的方式就是反复试验，同时使用和研究其他产品，然后尝试构建我自己的周末项目想法，对吗？

Oh, I want to build a Yelp style app with a map view and then also a list view, and I want it so that when you pan around in the map for it to automatically update the list view.

哦，我想构建一个 Yelp 风格的应用程序，带有地图视图，然后还有列表视图，并且我希望当您在地图中平移时它会自动更新列表视图。

Maybe there's some UX improvements I can make on top of that, but I can also test my technical skills to figure out which parts of this are hard to implement and how do you make it work, and what are some of the design changes or affordances that you can use to map to the technical possibilities.

也许我可以在此基础上进行一些用户体验改进，但我也可以测试我的技术技能，以找出其中哪些部分难以实现以及如何使其发挥作用，以及您可以使用哪些设计更改或可供性来映射到技术可能性。

Lenny Rachitsky: To do that, I loved your piece of advice, which I forgot to double down on, which I also find really powerful.

Lenny Rachitsky：为此，我喜欢你的建议，我忘了加倍努力，但我也发现它非常强大。

The best tip there is find something to actually build that is useful to you and fun.

最好的建议是找到一些对你有用且有趣的东西来实际构建。

Pick a project that's like, okay, this would be fun to do.

选择一个这样的项目，好吧，这会很有趣。

Have a problem you're solving that forces you to actually do this thing.

你正在解决的问题迫使你真正去做这件事。

Howie Liu: For sure.

刘豪：当然。

Look, I think that can be night and weekend projects, it can also be the daytime job projects, right?

你看，我想这可以是晚上和周末的项目，也可以是白天的工作项目，对吧？

I mean, I am basically telling our teams on the AI platform group especially, "Look, in that low hanging fruit metaphor, it's like I'm not being prescriptive with you on which watermelons you should pick, but you should go ..." We do have different pods within that group, but one of them for instance is what we call the field agents team and they're responsible for the agents that work within your app.

我的意思是，我基本上是特别告诉我们人工智能平台小组的团队，“看，在那个容易实现的水果比喻中，就像我没有告诉你应该挑选哪些西瓜，但你应该去……”我们在该小组中确实有不同的小组，但其中一个是我们所说的现场代理团队，他们负责在您的应用程序中工作的代理。

So this is not the agent that builds your app, but these agents that run on a customer's behalf to do web research on your customers, or they can go and analyze a document and in the future maybe do things like actually generate a prototype of a feature from a PRD or from a feature idea.

因此，这不是构建您的应用程序的代理，而是代表客户运行的代理，对您的客户进行网络研究，或者他们可以分析文档，并且将来可能会做一些事情，例如从 PRD 或功能创意实际生成功能原型。

Howie Liu: I'm telling them, "Look, there's a almost infinite number of superpowers you can give these field agents.

刘豪：我告诉他们，“看，你可以赋予这些外勤特工几乎无限的超能力。

I'm not going to tell you which specifically to do.

我不会告诉你具体要做什么。

Now you can ask me to weigh in for sure, but you should go and just experiment and prototype a few different directions we could go." What if you prototype what it would look like to have a deep research implementation in field agents, so that for any given row of data, let's say in your case it's podcast guests, you can just click a button or click a button en masse across every speaker you have lined up to do deep research powered by ChatGPT's own deep research on each of the speakers and have them all laid out side by side in this table, right?

现在你当然可以要求我参与其中，但你应该去尝试和原型化我们可以走的几个不同方向。”如果您原型化了在现场代理中进行深入研究实施的样子，那么对于任何给定的数据行，假设在您的情况下是播客嘉宾，您只需单击一个按钮或在您排队的每个发言者中集体单击一个按钮即可进行深入研究，由 ChatGPT 自己对每个发言者进行深入研究提供支持，并将它们全部并排放置在此表中，对吧？

Go prototype that and see how it feels and looks like.

进行原型设计，看看它的感觉和外观如何。

So I think some of this stuff can also be in your daytime job, especially if that daytime job is literally to go and build AI functionality.

所以我认为其中一些东西也可以出现在你的白天工作中，特别是如果白天的工作实际上是去构建人工智能功能的话。

Lenny Rachitsky: I actually tried to do exactly that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我确实尝试这样做。

The problem I ran into, I wonder if it's changed, is there's no API for ChatGPT deep research yet as far as I know.

我遇到的问题是，据我所知，尚无用于 ChatGPT 深入研究的 API，我想知道它是否已改变。

Howie Liu: Sometimes it ends up being ...

刘豪：有时候最终会是……

and I think they only recently exposed it.

我认为他们最近才曝光它。

It ends up being something on the order of a dollar plus per research call, which-

最终每次研究电话的费用约为一美元，其中-

Howie Liu: ...

刘浩威：……

I mean, again, exactly.

我的意思是，再一次，完全正确。

I mean, some people would say, oh my god, that's so expensive, and you rack up 50 of those, you've cost $50 a month.

我的意思是，有些人会说，天啊，那太贵了，你攒了 50 个，每个月就花了 50 美元。

I think it's like, well, it just saved you hours of research by a human.

我认为这就像，嗯，它只是为你节省了人类研究的时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: Not only that, I actually have a researcher that I pay to give me background on guests that was four or 500 bucks and the dollar sounds great.

Lenny Rachitsky：不仅如此，我实际上还聘请了一位研究人员，让他为我提供客人的背景信息，费用为 4 或 500 美元，听起来不错。

I've been doing this-

我一直在这样做——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

I've been doing this manually.

我一直在手动执行此操作。

Howie Liu: If he was being smart he would be using deep research and they just collected

Howie Liu：如果他聪明的话，他会进行深入研究，他们只是收集了

Lenny Rachitsky: They might be.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：可能是。

They might just be.

他们可能就是这样。

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

Okay, there's one more skill I wanted to talk about real quick.

好的，我想快速讨论一项技能。

This comes up a lot in these conversations is evals.

这在这些对话中经常出现，即评估。

Lenny Rachitsky: The power of getting good at evals, I know that's something you value highly.

Lenny Rachitsky：擅长评估的力量，我知道这是您高度重视的东西。

Talk about just why you think this is something people need to get good at.

谈谈为什么你认为这是人们需要擅长的事情。

Howie Liu: Yeah, and I listened to your episodes with and Mike who talked about this.

Howie Liu：是的，我和迈克一起听了你的节目，他谈到了这个。

I think it's interesting that both heads of OpenAI and Anthropic have converged on this point.

我认为有趣的是，OpenAI 和 Anthropic 的两位负责人在这一点上都达成了共识。

I mean, look, I think I would add a slightly different or additive take though, which is I think for a completely novel product experience or form factor, you should actually not start with evals and you should start with vibes, right?

我的意思是，看，我想我会添加一个稍微不同或附加的方式，我认为对于一个完全新颖的产品体验或外形因素，你实际上不应该从评估开始，而应该从振动开始，对吧？

Meaning you need to go and just test in a much more open-ended way, like, does this even work in kind of a broad sense?

这意味着你需要以一种更加开放的方式进行测试，比如，这在广义上是否有效？

Howie Liu: So as an example, for our custom code generation capability, instead of defining evals that get repeatably tested as you vary the prompt or the model or the agentic workflow used to generate these outputs, and you have to define what does good look like by definition for the eval, I would first start with a much more open-ended and ad hoc style of just throw stuff against the wall, try different prompts and see how well it does.

Howie Liu：举个例子，对于我们的自定义代码生成功能，不是定义在改变提示、模型或用于生成这些输出的代理工作流程时进行重复测试的评估，并且必须通过评估的定义来定义什么是好的，我首先会从一种更加开放和临时的风格开始，将东西扔到墙上，尝试不同的提示，看看效果如何。

Howie Liu: To me, evals are more useful, A, once you've converged on the basic scaffold of the form factor and you kind of know what are the use cases you want it to work well for and what you want to test against it.

Howie Liu：对我来说，评估更有用，一旦你集中在外形因素的基本框架上，并且你知道你希望它能够很好地工作的用例是什么以及你想要对其进行测试的内容。

Whereas in the early days, especially if your product market fit finding either for an entirely new company or for a pretty dramatically new or bold new capability that doesn't really have ...

而在早期，特别是如果您的产品市场适合寻找一家全新的公司或一个相当新颖或大胆的新功能，但实际上并没有......

it's not an incremental improvement on something that exists in Airtable today, I think you have to just be a little bit more creative initially and throwing stuff at it, seeing what works to understand, okay, let's use an example, we're implementing this new capability that can use basically a long-running AI crawler agent that goes and researches the web for a specific type of object or entity, right?

这不是对今天存在于 Airtable 中的东西的渐进式改进，我认为你必须一开始就更有创意一点，然后扔东西，看看什么可以理解，好吧，让我们举个例子，我们正在实现这个新功能，它基本上可以使用一个长期运行的 AI 爬虫代理，它可以在网络上研究特定类型的对象或实体，对吗？

Howie Liu: So it's similar to deep research, but what it actually does is instead of outputting a report, it's actually going and compiling a list of things.

Howie Liu：所以它类似于深度研究，但它实际上所做的不是输出报告，而是编制一份清单。

The things could be companies or people or anything else, right?

这些东西可以是公司、人或其他任何东西，对吧？

Find me every Marvel movie ever made, find me every DC Comics spin-off series, literally anything.

给我找到每部漫威电影、每部 DC 漫画衍生系列，几乎任何东西。

You have to go in and first just try out a bunch of random ...

你必须进去并首先尝试一些随机的......

use your own brain to think of what's the range of use cases I can test this against, right?

用你自己的大脑想想我可以测试这个的用例范围是什么，对吧？

Then you get back some results and you're like, okay, well, it's clear that where it does really well are these types of searches, people and companies with this kind of parameter.

然后你得到一些结果，你会想，好吧，很明显，它真正做得好的地方是这些类型的搜索、具有这种参数的人和公司。

Howie Liu: I think to me, evals are useful once you have a sense of what is that cluster of useful use cases, you can start then more programmatically measuring the changes that you're making to improve the output for that, right?

Howie Liu：我认为，一旦您了解了有用用例的集群是什么，评估就很有用，然后您就可以开始以更编程的方式测量您为提高输出而所做的更改，对吧？

But by that point, you've probably already scoped the product and maybe the way we would merchandise it in Airtable is not a completely open-ended capability, but hey, here's a specific capability that can research one of these X number of entity types including people and companies, and here's even the filter conditions or criteria that are more explicit that you can define to give it the prompting to search for that thing, right?

但到那时，您可能已经确定了该产品的范围，也许我们在 Airtable 中销售它的方式并不是一种完全开放式的功能，但是嘿，这里有一个特定的功能，可以研究 X 种实体类型之一，包括人员和公司，甚至还有更明确​​的过滤条件或标准，您可以定义它们以提示其搜索该东西，对吧？

Howie Liu: But I kind of think it's more useful as a way to iterate your way to improvement, and you can start really testing stuff empirically, right?

Howie Liu：但我认为它作为迭代改进方法的一种方式更有用，而且你可以开始真正凭经验测试东西，对吧？

You can A/B test, especially if you have the scale of a really large product like Anthropic or OpenAI, you can just test everything and see like, oh, this model actually performs better than this one, this prompt performs better than this one, but I think early on you don't have that luxury and you're in a much more open-ended discovery process.

你可以进行 A/B 测试，特别是如果你有像 Anthropic 或 OpenAI 这样的大型产品的规模，你可以测试所有东西，然后看到，哦，这个模型实际上比这个模型表现得更好，这个提示比这个模型表现得更好，但我认为一开始你没有那么奢侈，你处于一个更加开放的发现过程中。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is very wise, evals could constrain you too early.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常明智的，评估可能会过早地限制你。

I think about just the Double Diamond, I don't know, IDO framework of be divergent first, and then converge and then maybe-

我想到的是双钻石，我不知道，IDO 框架首先发散，然后收敛，然后也许-

Howie Liu: Yeah.

刘豪：是的。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

I hadn't heard that before, but that completely resonates.

我以前没有听说过，但这完全引起了共鸣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, let me try to reflect back some of the advice I've been hearing about how to shift a company to be successful in this new world, and let me see if I'm missing anything that you think is really important.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，让我试着回顾一下我听到的一些关于如何让公司在这个新世界中取得成功的建议，让我看看我是否遗漏了您认为真正重要的任何内容。

So, one is there's this sense of just reset the expectations on pace and urgency and help people understand in AI things move incredibly fast, this is how we need to operate.

因此，有一种感觉就是重新设定对节奏和紧迫性的期望，并帮助人们理解人工智能事物的发展速度令人难以置信，这就是我们需要的运作方式。

Then there's also a piece of get stuff out so that you can learn how people use it and what it's capable of versus polishing it endlessly.

然后还有一个“拿出来”的东西，这样你就可以了解人们如何使用它以及它的功能，而不是无休止地打磨它。

Forcing people almost ...

逼人几乎...

I don't know if forcing's the right word, but encouraging people to play with the latest stuff and giving them a chance to take days off or block out calendars, cancel meetings, just stay on top of this stuff to play as you talked about it.

我不知道“强迫”这个词是否正确，但鼓励人们玩最新的东西，给他们机会休息几天或取消日历，取消会议，只要在你谈论的时候掌握这些东西就可以了。

Then sharing things they've learned, get the vibes of what's possible.

然后分享他们学到的东西，感受可能性。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's also this idea of just rethink, okay, if we were just start today in this world, what would we do to achieve the same mission we are trying to achieve?

Lenny Rachitsky：还有一个想法是重新思考，好吧，如果我们今天才开始来到这个世界，我们会做什么来实现我们正在努力实现的相同使命？

Ideally it leverages this unfair advantage we have with things we've been working on for a long time.

理想情况下，它利用了我们长期致力于的事情所拥有的这种不公平优势。

Then there's just talk to AI constantly every hour as you described.

然后就像你所描述的那样，每小时不断地与人工智能交谈。

Howie Liu: For sure.

刘豪：当然。

Yeah, multiple times an hour, if possible.

是的，如果可能的话，每小时多次。

Lenny Rachitsky: Multiple times an hour, it keeps going up.

Lenny Rachitsky：每小时多次，它不断上升。

Is there anything else that I missed there that you're like, you need to do this too to have a chance?

还有什么是我错过的，你想，你也需要这样做才能有机会吗？

Howie Liu: I think just to really, really try to break down role silos, and I think that's true certainly for EPND in the typical EPD triangle, but I also think it's probably true even for non-product roles, right?

Howie Liu：我认为要真正、真正尝试打破角色孤岛，我认为对于典型 EPD 三角中的 EPND 来说当然是这样，但我也认为即使对于非产品角色也可能是这样，对吧？

I think it's true in marketing, right?

我认为这在营销中是正确的，对吗？

Something I'm really pushing for in marketing and I think our marketing team is really leaning into actually is if you can just do all of the thing yourself ...

我在营销方面真正推动的事情，我认为我们的营销团队真正倾向于的是，如果你可以自己做所有的事情......

traditionally how a marketing team might operate is like, okay, you have one person who's responsible for executing the performance marketing part of a campaign.

传统上，营销团队的运作方式就像，好吧，你有一个人负责执行营销活动的效果营销部分。

They literally go into the Google AdWords interface and they're tweaking the parameters of targeting and budget and conversion tracking, et cetera, and then somebody else is actually responsible for coming up with the specific ad copy, and somebody else yet was responsible for coming up with the seed content or positioning guide written by a PMM that feeds into the ad creative, and so on and so forth, right?

他们实际上进入了 Google AdWords 界面，调整了定位、预算和转化跟踪等参数，然后其他人实际上负责提出特定的广告文案，而其他人则负责提出由 PMM 编写的种子内容或定位指南，以馈送到广告创意中，等等，对吧？

Maybe they're promoting some new demo asset that somebody else yet created.

也许他们正在推广其他人尚未创建的一些新的演示资产。

Howie Liu: I just think that in the same way that you can collapse the roles in EPD, and the ideal person, maybe they're very specialized and deep in one dimension like engineering, but they're well-rounded enough to be dangerous on the other two, I think that's kind of true in almost every other function, right?

Howie Liu：我只是认为，就像你可以分解 EPD 中的角色一样，理想的人选可能在工程等一个维度上非常专业和深入，但他们足够全面，对其他两个维度来说是危险的，我认为几乎所有其他职能都是如此，对吗？

Sales as well, I think you should start to be able to play more of an SE role.

销售也是如此，我认为你应该开始能够扮演更多的 SE 角色。

Traditionally salespeople didn't necessarily know the product that well and relied on the SE to come in and be the product experts.

传统上，销售人员不一定非常了解产品，而是依赖 SE 来成为产品专家。

I think it's really hard to sell any kind of AI product now without actually being fluent in the product and be able to demo the product, so AEs need to be SE fluent as well.

我认为，如果不真正熟悉产品并能够演示产品，现在很难销售任何类型的人工智能产品，因此 AE 也需要精通 SE。

Howie Liu: So I just think that that concept of collapsing roles, everybody needs to become more full stack to do the ...

Howie Liu：所以我只是认为角色崩溃的概念，每个人都需要变得更加全面才能做到......

being more outcome-oriented, right?

更加注重结果，对吗？

Your outcome as an AE is to convince customers of the value of your product and close deals, right?

作为 AE，您的成果是让客户相信您产品的价值并达成交易，对吗？

Okay, well, in order to do that, you used to have dependencies on having assets created by marketing and an SE to help you demo.

好吧，为了做到这一点，您曾经依赖于营销创建的资产和 SE 来帮助您演示。

Can you collapse more of those dependencies so that if you had to, you could do it all yourself, right?

您能否分解更多这些依赖项，以便在必要时您可以自己完成所有工作，对吧？

I just think it's a new operating mentality overall for every AI native company or company that wants to compete in this new arena.

我只是认为，对于每个人工智能本土公司或想要在这个新领域竞争的公司来说，这总体上是一种新的运营心态。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is a great addition.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的补充。

It almost feels like you go back to startup times when everyone's doing a bunch of stuff.

感觉就像回到了创业时代，每个人都在做一堆事情。

There's no here's the head of product, here's the head of engineering, we're just doing stuff-

这里没有产品主管，这里有工程主管，我们只是在做事 -

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I'm kind of seeing it as this upside down T where there's the thing you're really strong at and then as you described, the minimum of being good at engineering design or ...

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我认为这是一个颠倒的 T，其中有你真正擅长的事情，然后正如你所描述的，至少擅长工程设计或......

and SE, by the way, sales engineering imagine is what that stands for.

顺便说一下，SE 是销售工程想象的意思。

Adjacent roles, you need to start having a baseline.

相邻的角色，你需要开始有一个基线。

The baseline is increasing of how much you need to understand that, everyone's Venn diagrams are kind of converging.

基线随着你需要了解的程度而增加，每个人的维恩图都在某种程度上趋同。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, let me take a step back and zoom out and think about the broader journey you've been on over the past decade plus.

好吧，让我退后一步，把视野拉远，想想你在过去十多年里所经历的更广阔的旅程。

Let me just ask you this, what's the most counterintuitive lesson you've learned about Airtable building and company building teams that maybe goes against common startup wisdom?

让我问你一个问题，你在 Airtable 建设和公司建设团队中学到的最违反直觉的教训是什么？这可能违背了常见的创业智慧？

Howie Liu: I heard your interview with Brian Chesky and then later you talked about founder mode in that YC retreat, and the points there really, really resonated with me.

Howie Liu：我听了你对 Brian Chesky 的采访，后来你在 YC 静修会上谈到了创始人模式，其中的观点确实引起了我的共鸣。

I feel like maybe less eloquently I deduced some of the same principles just in my own experience, which is I think when you're scaling up, and this relates also to what we talked about before around the early days of building a company, you're in the details, you're finding product market fit, you kind of have to be pretty versatile, right?

我觉得我根据自己的经验推导出了一些相同的原则，这可能不太雄辩，我认为当你扩大规模时，这也与我们之前在建立公司的早期讨论过的内容有关，你在细节中，你在寻找适合市场的产品，你必须非常多才多艺，对吗？

All these decisions from a technical standpoint to design, to even commercial, and what's the freemium model going to be like?

所有这些决策从技术角度到设计，甚至商业，免费增值模式会是什么样子？

And how are we going to market this product?

我们将如何营销该产品？

What does the website look like?

该网站是什么样子的？

They're all very intertwined, right?

它们都非常交织在一起，对吧？

You can't compartmentalize and then almost factory produce each of these things separately.

你无法将这些东西分开，然后几乎在工厂里分别生产这些东西。

They're all intertwined and you have a very small tight-knit team that's thinking full stack about all of this combined.

它们都是相互交织在一起的，并且您有一个非常小的紧密团队，正在对所有这些结合起来进行全栈思考。

Howie Liu: Obviously that's the only way, in my opinion, to create that magical product market fit in the first place.

Howie Liu：显然，在我看来，这是创造神奇产品市场契合度的唯一方法。

Then I think as you scale up, the default guidance that you often get from operational experts and larger scale company investors is like, okay, you got to industrialize the process of all of this stuff, right?

然后我认为，当你扩大规模时，你经常从运营专家和大型公司投资者那里得到的默认指导是，好吧，你必须将所有这些东西的过程工业化，对吧？

It's kind of like going from a bespoke artisanal, one person made an entire item of clothing to we got to factory produce this thing, right?

这有点像从一个定制的工匠，一个人制作了一整件衣服，到我们到工厂生产这个东西，对吗？

Howie Liu: What that means in an organizational context is you then create these different fiefdoms, you hire all these execs and each exec just manages their own swim lane, and there's relatively looser coupling between all of those different groups, right?

Howie Liu：这在组织环境中意味着你创建这些不同的领地，你雇佣所有这些高管，每个高管只管理自己的泳道，所有这些不同群体之间的耦合相对松散，对吗？

So then you've got sales executing on its own thing, marketing's executing on its own thing, product's executing on its own thing.

因此，销售人员可以自行执行，营销可以自行执行，产品可以自行执行。

Even within product there's different product groups and surface areas that are each executing on their own thing.

即使在产品内部也有不同的产品组和表面区域，每个产品组和表面区域都在执行自己的事情。

Howie Liu: Using the factory metaphor of there's an argument that that's actually kind of an efficient way to scale up production for each of these different swim lanes, right?

Howie Liu：用工厂来比喻，有一种观点认为，这实际上是扩大每个不同泳道生产规模的有效方法，对吧？

Each one can operate in a more autonomous and purely scale up focus, wait, how do we produce more of this thing?

每个人都可以以更加自主和纯粹的规模化焦点运作，等等，我们如何生产更多这样的东西？

If the thing happens to be within one product group improving search, that's our main focus.

如果事情恰好发生在一个改进搜索的产品组中，那就是我们的主要关注点。

We're just going to go and ship, ship, ship more stuff to improve search.

我们将继续运送、运送、运送更多的东西来改善搜索。

So it's not completely crazy why people give this advice, but I think what you lose is the magical integrative value of holistic thinking and making the bigger picture bets, right?

所以人们给出这个建议并不完全是疯狂的，但我认为你失去的是整体思维和做出更大的赌注的神奇综合价值，对吗？

Howie Liu: I think Brian talked a lot about this on his episode with you, which is like, look, in a company that is really serious about product, first of all, I really liked his point about the CEO has to play a CPO role, you have to care about the product.

Howie Liu：我认为 Brian 在他与你的节目中谈论了很多这个问题，就像，看，在一家非常重视产品的公司中，首先，我真的很喜欢他关于 CEO 必须扮演 CPO 角色的观点，你必须关心产品。

Ultimately the product is the thing and you can't just coast on scaling up go-to-market around the product forever, you got to keep innovating on the product.

归根结底，产品才是最重要的，你不能永远围绕产品扩大上市规模，你必须不断对产品进行创新。

By the way, the best way to innovate on the product is not incrementally split over all these different little surface areas, but actually to have a bigger, more step function vision of how this product needs to make a leap, or what's the next big either act of the product or new capability of the product or reinvention of the product, right?

顺便说一句，产品创新的最佳方式不是逐步分割所有这些不同的小表面区域，而是实际上对这个产品需要如何实现飞跃有一个更大、更多步骤的功能愿景，或者下一个重大的产品行为或产品的新功能或产品的重塑是什么，对吗？

Howie Liu: So I think if you really care about doing that from a product execution standpoint and almost refinding new product market fit on a regular basis, I think it necessitates a completely different operating and leadership model throughout the organization.

Howie Liu：所以我认为，如果你真的关心从产品执行的角度做到这一点，并且几乎定期重新寻找适合市场的新产品，我认为整个组织需要一个完全不同的运营和领导模式。

All of the stuff we just talked about in terms of how to operate in the AI native era I think is actually exactly the same as how you need to operate in this constant product market refinding of fit state.

我们刚才谈到的关于如何在人工智能原生时代运营的所有内容我认为实际上与在这个不断重新寻找适合状态的产品市场中需要如何运营是完全相同的。

Howie Liu: So I could not agree more with that concept of you got to think ambitiously and move the organization holistically towards these bigger outcomes, but also ship and learn and experiment a lot more in this era.

Howie Liu：所以我非常同意这样的理念：你必须雄心勃勃地思考，全面推动组织实现这些更大的成果，而且在这个时代还要进行更多的交付、学习和实验。

Then maybe the meta learning I had from all of the above is that the specific advice obviously was like, okay, go scale up in this way or go hire these types of people, experienced operators, et cetera.

然后，也许我从上述所有内容中得到的元学习是，具体建议显然是，好吧，以这种方式扩大规模，或者去雇用这些类型的人、经验丰富的操作员等等。

Now, obviously there's some truth to that, right?

现在，显然这是有一定道理的，对吧？

The people giving this advice are not incompetent.

提出这个建议的人并非无能。

They had some reason for giving it and in certain contexts that is the right thing to do, but I think my meta learning is it's not enough to just trust the recommendation, like, here's the action you should take from a lot of people, 'cause everybody has different priors and it's almost like we're all our own LLMs, and we all have different training from a different corpus of data informed by our own experiences.

他们有一些理由给出它，在某些情况下这是正确的做法，但我认为我的元学习是仅仅相信建议是不够​​的，比如，这是你应该从很多人那里采取的行动，因为每个人都有不同的先验，几乎就像我们都是自己的法学硕士，我们都从我们自己的经验所提供的不同数据语料库中接受了不同的培训。

Maybe you're trained on the service-

也许您接受过服务培训-

Howie Liu: ...

刘浩威：……

experiences, and maybe you're trained on like the kind of ServiceNow or the Oracle training corpus, and this person's trained on the Facebook corpus, and I'm trained on the Airtable one.

经验，也许你接受过类似 ServiceNow 或 Oracle 培训语料库的培训，这个人接受过 Facebook 语料库的培训，而我接受过 Airtable 语料库的培训。

I think what I've tried to do more and more is not to just ignore advice from smart people.

我认为我越来越多地尝试做的不是仅仅忽视聪明人的建议。

Obviously, that's not the right answer, but to kind of take their...

显然，这不是正确的答案，但要采取他们的......

It's almost like in an LLM you can now with a reasoning model actually inspect the chain of thought and see how it's thinking.

这几乎就像在法学硕士中，你现在可以使用推理模型来实际检查思想链并了解它是如何思考的。

Why did it come up with this answer?

为什么会得出这个答案？

To me, that chain of thought like "Why did you recommend this?", is actually more informative than the actual, "Just do this recommendation."

对我来说，像“你为什么推荐这个？”这样的想法实际上比实际的“就做这个推荐”更能提供信息。

Howie Liu: The answer might be like, "Hey, at So-and-So company, this is how we eliminated the PM role entirely." For Brian at Airbnb, it made sense.

Howie Liu：答案可能是这样的：“嘿，在某某公司，我们就是这样完全取消 PM 角色的。”对于 Airbnb 的 Brian 来说，这是有道理的。

We're no longer having PMs in their traditional form.

我们不再采用传统形式的产品经理。

Now, we have program managers and product marketers, but more than the actual decision because I don't think it's a one-size-fits-all, everybody should do the same, why did you do that?

现在，我们有项目经理和产品营销人员，但不仅仅是实际的决定，因为我认为这不是一刀切的，每个人都应该这样做，你为什么这样做？

The why actually was very informative, and then be able to take that and say like, "Okay, how would I apply that?" Maybe it yields a different outcome, but the reasoning actually is very informative.

为什么实际上提供了非常丰富的信息，然后能够接受并说，“好吧，我将如何应用它？”也许它会产生不同的结果，但推理实际上非常有用。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting how this idea founder mode is not so different from this ICCO trend that you're following and it's-

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，这种创意创始人模式与您所关注的 ICCO 趋势并没有太大不同，而且它 -

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

yeah, yeah, it's like being in the weeds, being in the details, trying things yourself, not delegating to execs.

是的，是的，这就像在杂草中，在细节中，自己尝试事情，而不是委托给高管。

Howie Liu: Yeah, and I think anything taken to an extreme can be problematic.

Howie Liu：是的，我认为任何事情走极端都会有问题。

There is a world where you are so in the details and in every detail that you're basically just micromanaging and you're kind of creating like a euphemism for that.

在这个世界里，你对细节和每一个细节都如此关注，以至于你基本上只是进行微观管理，并且你在创造一种委婉的说法。

That's not really what founder mode is about.

这并不是创始人模式的真正含义。

That's not like the Brian conception of founder mode is to like micromanage everything and not trust anyone, but I think it's more about finding that right balance of being unabashed about caring about the details that do matter and where the tying together of details across different groups or departments actually is the only way to yield a non-incremental outcome.

这不像布莱恩的创始人模式概念是喜欢微观管理一切而不信任任何人，但我认为这更多的是找到适当的平衡，毫不掩饰地关心重要的细节，以及将不同群体或部门的细节结合在一起实际上是产生非增量结果的唯一方法。

Otherwise, each person is just optimizing within their own domain, but you'll never get to the global maxima or the global breakthrough.

否则，每个人都只是在自己的领域内优化，但你永远无法达到全局最大值或全局突破。

Howie Liu: I think the really cool thing about CEOs as I seize it, frankly any leader playing more of an IC-like role and being in the details is I think for the right type of person, it's actually more fun that way.

Howie Liu：我认为首席执行官最酷的一点是，坦率地说，任何领导者扮演的角色更像是 IC 并关注细节，我认为对于合适的人来说，这样实际上更有趣。

I mean, to be honest, for me, the times where I felt most disintermediated from what I felt was the substance of this company was when I thought that I was almost like forcing myself to step away from the details.

我的意思是，说实话，对我来说，当我觉得自己几乎要强迫自己远离细节时，我感觉自己与这家公司的实质最脱节。

I thought that's what a at-scale CEO was supposed to do.

我认为这就是一位大规模首席执行官应该做的事情。

I mean, there's some famous CEOs who have talked about, "The less decision I could make the better.

我的意思是，有一些著名的首席执行官曾说过：“我能做出的决定越少越好。

The less details I'm exposed to the better.

我接触到的细节越少越好。

I just want to inspect at the topmost layer how this business is running, and if everything underneath it is going smoothly, then I'm able to do that and everything looks good."

我只是想在最顶层检查一下这个业务的运行情况，如果它下面的一切都进展顺利，那么我就能做到这一点，一切看起来都很好。”

Howie Liu: I just think that's maybe, again, it works in a certain type of very mature type of business.

Howie Liu：我只是认为这可能再次适用于某种类型的非常成熟的业务。

Even then, though, I can't imagine that at a CPG company like a Procter & Gamble.

但即便如此，我还是无法想象在宝洁这样的消费品公司会出现这种情况。

You wouldn't want to have a CEO who still actually goes and tastes the soup and tries the products and sees literally the details of what the new product innovation pipeline looks like, as well as like how it's being experienced on the shelves and so on.

你不会希望有一位首席执行官仍然亲自去品尝汤并尝试产品，并亲眼目睹新产品创新管道的细节，以及它在货架上的体验等等。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I guess I'm just more and more skeptical that that hands-off pure delegation and process management role ever works as a CEO.

我想我只是越来越怀疑首席执行官这种不干涉的纯粹授权和流程管理角色是否有效。

Maybe you go through a long enough period of where the business is coasting that nobody notices, but I got to say, for me it's just much more invigorating to get to play that role.

也许你经历了一段足够长的时间，业务一直在滑行，没有人注意到，但我不得不说，对我来说，扮演这个角色更加令人振奋。

I think for the types of operators and leaders that I most admire, that's what makes the job interesting.

我认为对于我最钦佩的经营者和领导者类型来说，这就是这份工作的有趣之处。

They don't want to have a automated away kind of role as a leader.

他们不想扮演一个自动离开的领导者角色。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you could go back in time and whisper something in a decade-ago Howie's ear that would have saved you a lot of pain and suffering over the last decade, what would that be?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：如果你能回到过去，在十年前的霍伊耳边低声说些什么，这会让你在过去的十年里免去很多痛苦和磨难，那会是什么？

Howie Liu: Don't step away from the details that both you love.

Howie Liu：不要放弃你们都喜欢的细节。

I mean, first of all, if your passion is building product and product design, even if it feels like at times the company needs to do all this other stuff like scale up, go to market, and operations and just have like a large people organization, that itself creates a lot of need to do things and manage.

我的意思是，首先，如果你的热情是构建产品和产品设计，即使有时感觉公司需要做所有其他事情，例如扩大规模、进入市场和运营，并且就像一个大型人员组织一样，这本身就产生了很多做事和管理的需要。

There becomes a new job invented just to manage a larger group of people, and obviously you're going to have to do some of that.

一项新工作的发明只是为了管理更多的人，显然你必须做其中的一些事情。

You can't just completely eschew all your responsibility as an at-scale CEO, but don't lose the essence of the thing that you love doing and that really made this product happen and gives this company as many companies that were founded on a magical product market fit finding insight.

你不能完全逃避作为大规模首席执行官的所有责任，但也不要失去你喜欢做的事情的本质，这些本质使这个产品得以实现，并使这家公司像许多建立在神奇产品市场上的公司一样找到了适合的洞察力。

Don't step too far away from that, and always make sure that is still your number one, even if other stuff has to also add to your plate.

不要离它太远，并且始终确保它仍然是你的第一，即使其他东西也必须添加到你的盘子里。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think people don't talk enough about this how if someone starts a company that's an idea they have they're excited about, it takes off and then you're stuck on that for a long time, and then even if things are pushed in a direction you're not as excited about.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为人们对这个问题的讨论还不够，如果有人创办了一家让他们感到兴奋的想法的公司，它会起飞，然后你会在很长一段时间内坚持下去，然后即使事情被推向你不那么兴奋的方向。

This point about just remembering what you actually love about it and coming back to that is so important because that's the only way to keep doing this for a long time.

记住你真正喜欢它的是什么，然后再回到它，这一点非常重要，因为这是长期坚持这样做的唯一方法。

Howie Liu: I think that's so true, and to me that's why there's always been a difference between entrepreneurs who love the act of building a product or the business, too, versus those who saw a just purely business or financial opportunity that they felt like they couldn't pass up exploiting or going after.

Howie Liu：我认为这是千真万确的，对我来说，这就是为什么热衷于打造产品或业务的企业家与那些看到纯粹的商业或金融机会而觉得自己无法放弃利用或追求的企业家之间总是存在差异的原因。

Look, no knock on people who are more the latter, and there's entire industries where it's all just about alpha generation.

看，不要对那些更倾向于后者的人进行攻击，整个行业都只关注阿尔法一代。

You can go into the private equity business and so on, and it's just purely it's rationally about how do I find the alpha?

你可以进入私募股权业务等等，这纯粹是理性地思考我如何找到阿尔法？

I think that some of the best companies, product central companies, at least in my opinion, are run by those people who actually just love the product.

我认为一些最好的公司，产品中心公司，至少在我看来，是由那些真正热爱产品的人经营的。

I think you get a feel for that from some of the AI companies like Sam, I think genuinely just loves working on AI.

我想你可以从像 Sam 这样的人工智能公司身上感受到这一点，我认为他们真的很喜欢从事人工智能工作。

Howie Liu: If he could spend a hundred percent of his time on just being close to the AI and the research, I mean, he would and he's even said as much.

Howie Liu：如果他能把百分之一百的时间花在接近人工智能和研究上，我的意思是，他会的，而且他甚至这么说过。

Ranging to like Brian's with Airbnb, it's pretty clear that people like this are not motivated like...

就像 Brian 和 Airbnb 一样，很明显，像这样的人并没有像......

Airbnb was not founded because like, "Oh my God, we want to make a lot of money off this arbitrage opportunity against hotels."

Airbnb 的成立并不是因为“天哪，我们想通过针对酒店的套利机会赚很多钱”。

Lenny Rachitsky: They just needed to pay their rent.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们只需要支付房租。

Howie Liu: Yeah.

刘豪：是的。

Well, that and I think they loved the product and I think they also loved the way in which they built the product, the design-centric nature of that product and company and culture.

嗯，我认为他们喜欢这个产品，我认为他们也喜欢他们构建产品的方式，喜欢该产品、公司和文化以设计为中心的本质。

That's what gives you the continued joy of working on what could be the same company for a very long time.

这就是让你能够在同一家公司工作很长一段时间的持续乐趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Howie, is there anything else that you wanted to touch on or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

Lenny Rachitsky：Howie，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想向听众透露或留给听众的吗？

Howie Liu: I just want to reiterate, especially for listeners here who are in an EP or D role and especially in the P role, I really do believe that this is not like you either have or you don't like in terms of the skill set needed to be relevant and AI needed, but I do think it's a call to action to go and bolster your skill sets where they may be less refined right now.

Howie Liu：我只是想重申一下，特别是对于在座的 EP 或 D 角色，尤其是 P 角色的听众，我确实相信，就所需的相关技能和所需的人工智能而言，这并不像您所拥有或不喜欢的那样，但我确实认为这是一个行动呼吁，要求您采取行动，加强您目前可能不太完善的技能。

I think even programming, I really believe everyone could learn how to be a software engineer if they wanted to.

我认为即使是编程，我真的相信每个人都可以学习如何成为一名软件工程师，如果他们愿意的话。

Now, obviously, some people just as with like great writers are never going to be a published author or the Hemingway, but everyone can gain a good enough proficiency of software engineering if they really wanted to.

现在，显然，有些人就像伟大的作家一样永远不会成为出版作家或海明威，但如果他们真的愿意，每个人都可以获得足够好的软件工程熟练程度。

Howie Liu: You could take that boot camp.

Howie Liu：你可以参加那个训练营。

You could do like some coding exercises on the side, et cetera.

您可以兼职做一些编码练习等等。

The point there is that sometimes I think we treat these disciplines like hard, hard skills that if you're already halfway into your career and you're not already an engineer, if you're not already a designer, okay, well, you can never be one.

关键是，有时我认为我们将这些学科视为硬技能，如果你已经进入职业生涯一半，但你还不是一名工程师，如果你还不是一名设计师，好吧，好吧，你永远不可能成为一名设计师。

I just think our brains are malleable and there's a lot of great curriculum out there to learn.

我只是认为我们的大脑是可塑的，并且有很多很棒的课程可供学习。

Lot of it, like I said, just comes down to also like trial and error and building projects, maybe nights and weekends projects even to learn this stuff.

就像我说的，很多都归结为也喜欢反复试验和构建项目，也许晚上和周末的项目甚至是为了学习这些东西。

Everyone can learn how to be a versatile kind of unicorn product engineer/designer hybrid in the AI-native era.

每个人都可以学习如何成为人工智能原生时代的多才多艺的独角兽产品工程师/设计师混合体。

The only thing stopping you is just going out and doing it.

唯一阻止你的就是出去做。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is a really empowering way to end it, and just to double down on that, it's never been easier to learn these things.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一种真正有效的结束它的方式，而且要加倍努力，学习这些东西从未如此简单。

There are super intelligences that you can talk to that do a lot as they're building can help you learn.

你可以与超级智能交谈，他们正在构建的东西可以帮助你学习。

Howie Liu: Yeah.

刘豪：是的。

I mean, literally, I go into ChatGPT sometimes and I ask it just like, "Hey, how would you build this app?" I'm just curious.

我的意思是，从字面上看，我有时会进入 ChatGPT，然后问它，“嘿，你会如何构建这个应用程序？”我只是好奇。

I'm like, "How would you build Manus, the open-ended agent?" Literally, how would you build it?

我想，“你会如何构建马努斯，开放式特工？”从字面上看，你将如何构建它？

You can ask the questions and it's like having an amazing, brilliant software architect, software engineer, product manager, designer expert tutor that you can literally like there's no dumb question.

你可以提出问题，这就像有一个令人惊叹的、才华横溢的软件架构师、软件工程师、产品经理、设计师专家导师一样，你可以从字面上感觉没有愚蠢的问题。

They have infinite patience.

他们有无限的耐心。

They're literally on and awake 24/7.

他们确实 24/7 都处于开机状态。

It is the most incredible time to learn this stuff, to your point.

就你的观点而言，这是学习这些东西的最不可思议的时刻。

Then, of course, the interactive tools to go and actually build stuff.

当然，还有用于实际构建内容的交互式工具。

Anyone can download Cursor and just start asking Composer to generate some code for you, and then looking at the code and trying to figure out what it does.

任何人都可以下载 Cursor，然后开始要求 Composer 为您生成一些代码，然后查看代码并尝试弄清楚它的作用。

To your point, when I think back to the earliest era that I experienced of building apps, first I learned C++, then I learned PHP and JavaScript and even building kind of JavaScript single-page apps in the early days like '08 through 2010.

就你的观点而言，当我回想起我构建应用程序的最早时代时，我首先学习了 C++，然后学习了 PHP 和 JavaScript，甚至在早期（例如 08 年到 2010 年）构建了某种 JavaScript 单页应用程序。

It was a dark, dark art.

这是一门黑暗的艺术。

I mean, there were some like...

我的意思是，有一些像...

You just had to go and like learn some of these things.

你只需要去学习其中的一些东西即可。

There wasn't great tutorials for it.

没有很好的教程。

You had to reverse engineer certain things.

你必须对某些东西进行逆向工程。

There were just weird things like if you wanted rounded corners in your UI, you literally took Photoshop, opened it up, created like a rounded corner in pixels, and then cut that pixel up into an image that you dropped onto the page at exactly the right position to be at the edge of a box.

有一些奇怪的事情，比如如果你想要在你的 UI 中使用圆角，你实际上需要 Photoshop，打开它，以像素为单位创建一个圆角，然后将该像素剪切成一个图像，然后将其放置到页面上位于框边缘的正确位置。

Howie Liu: It's like crazy stuff.

Howie Liu：这就像疯狂的事情。

I mean, everything was so much more arcane at the time, and now it feels so much more fluid and accessible, and the gap between the arcane tech that you have to wade through to build something has just been minimized so much.

我的意思是，当时一切都更加神秘，而现在感觉更加流畅和容易理解，并且你必须涉足才能构建某些东西的神秘技术之间的差距已经被最小化了很多。

It's like the effort and abstraction between you and the magical, delightful actual building of the thing that you want has been so minimized.

就好像你和你想要的东西的神奇、令人愉快的实际构建之间的努力和抽象已经被最小化了。

It's never been a more exciting time to be a builder.

对于一名建筑商来说，这是前所未有的激动人心的时刻。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's like to create.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就像创造。

It's that line stuff you just kind of have-

这就是你所拥有的那种线条-

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

the invisible one-pixel thing that you just stick in places.

您只需将其粘贴在适当位置的不可见的单像素事物即可。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh my God, what a time to be alive.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：天哪，这是多么美好的时光啊。

Howie, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

Howie，至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Here we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

What are two or three books you find yourself recommending most to other people?

您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Howie Liu: You know, I've been trying to read fiction more, partly because I think it's just a really nice mental reset.

刘豪：你知道，我一直在尝试更多地阅读小说，部分原因是我认为这只是一种非常好的心理重置。

I will say like Three-Body Problem for anyone who hasn't read it, it's a mind-expanding book.

我会对那些没有读过《三体》的人说，这是一本拓展思维的书。

I like sci-fi and fiction that kind of opens your brain, so maybe this is my cheat card, but it's a three-book series.

我喜欢科幻小说和小说，它们可以打开你的大脑，所以也许这是我的作弊卡，但它是一个三本书系​​列。

Those are three great books.

这是三本很棒的书。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that series, and my tip there is it gets good one and a half books in is my tip, so just keep reading.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个系列，我的建议是它可以写​​一本半书，所以继续阅读吧。

That's where it's like, "Okay, now I'm in."

这就是“好吧，现在我进来了”的感觉。

Howie Liu: I liked even the first one, but I felt like it was inception where every subsequent book was like you dropped into another, like you incepted into another layer, right?

刘豪：我什至喜欢第一本书，但我觉得这是一个开始，后续的每一本书都像是你掉进了另一本书，就像你进入了另一层，对吧？

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

What's a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Howie Liu: TV show, I just started watching The Studio.

刘豪：电视剧，我刚开始看演播室。

It's like the Seth Rogen, Rogen.

就像塞斯·罗根，罗根。

Howie Liu: Yep.

刘豪：是的。

Yeah, it is pretty stressful, and I mean, Silicon Valley was too close to home when it came out, so I watched it, but it was just cringy.

是的，压力很大，我的意思是，当它上映时，硅谷离家太近了，所以我看了它，但它只是令人难堪。

The Studio is kind of fund to watch because it's a little bit about like inside baseball of Hollywood, and yet I'm not in Hollywood, so it's entertaining to watch.

《工作室》是一部值得观看的作品，因为它有点像好莱坞的棒球场，但我并不在好莱坞，所以观看起来很有趣。

It's I thought smart and a funny show because I split time between L.A.

我认为这是一个聪明又有趣的节目，因为我在洛杉矶和洛杉矶之间分配时间。

and S.F.

和 S.F.

I also feel like it's very real to me.

我也觉得这对我来说很真实。

I see a lot of the literal characters out there in the world that it's characterizing.

我在这个世界上看到了很多它所描绘的字面人物。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Could be an app, could be gadget, could be clothing.

可以是应用程序，可以是小工具，可以是服装。

Howie Liu: Okay, so I'll give two because I feel like I have to say some kind of software product.

Howie Liu：好的，我就给两个，因为我觉得我必须说某种软件产品。

I mean, I'm a really big fan of Runway, the product and the company.

我的意思是，我是 Runway、产品和公司的忠实粉丝。

I just think every new model they come out with, they just came out with a new one just I think like two days ago that gives even more controls and refinement on creating exactly the video scene that you want.

我只是认为他们推出的每一个新模型，就像两天前一样，他们刚刚推出了一个新模型，在创建您想要的视频场景时提供了更多的控制和改进。

I think just the photorealism in what you can generate now, and they also built this cool demo thing that's an immersive world generator I mentioned before.

我认为你现在可以生成真实感，他们还构建了这个很酷的演示，这是我之前提到的沉浸式世界生成器。

I think it's just cool to see.

我觉得这很酷。

I also like the underdog story.

我也喜欢失败者的故事。

I'm clearly like Google's gunning in the space, has VO3 and so on and has its OpenAI, but I love the underdog story of this sub-hundred-person company still punching above their weight and building really awesome video experiences.

我显然很喜欢谷歌在这个领域的炮火，有 VO3 等，还有 OpenAI，但我喜欢这家不到百人的公司的失败故事，仍然超越他们的重量，打造真正很棒的视频体验。

That's the software one.

那就是软件一。

Howie Liu: Then, a very, very kind of nerdy real-world answer on product is I kind of just recently got into this whole cottage industry of artisanally produced basically clothing by small-scale Japanese manufacturers that use literally like hundred-year-old looms to make clothes the old-fashioned way or the old-fashioned industrial way.

Howie Liu：然后，关于产品的一个非常非常书呆子的现实世界答案是，我最近刚刚进入整个家庭手工业，基本上是由小型日本制造商手工生产的服装，这些制造商使用字面意义上的百年织布机以老式方式或老式工业方式制造衣服。

They have these loop wheeler machines and they spin the cloth in a very slow pace, so it's completely impractical from a production-scale standpoint, but I've gotten some of these t-shirts and I just love the...

他们有这些循环轮机器，它们以非常慢的速度旋转布料，所以从生产规模的角度来看，这是完全不切实际的，但我已经得到了一些这样的 T 恤，我只是喜欢......

I guess in a world where it feels like everything is becoming so much faster moving and even tech from five years ago is obsolete, I love a little bit of the throwback to like old things sometimes can be even more cherishable in this new era.

我想，在一个感觉一切都变得如此快速发展，甚至五年前的技术已经过时的世界里，我喜欢一点点复古，喜欢旧事物，有时在这个新时代会更加珍贵。

Maybe that makes me a hipster, but I love the vintage, the retro increasingly these days.

也许这让我成为一个时髦的人，但我现在越来越喜欢复古。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like anything that starts with artisanal small batch Japanese is going to be really good stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得任何以手工小批量日本产品开始的东西都将是非常好的东西。

Is there a brand you want to share that is that?

您有一个想要分享的品牌吗？

Or is this like you want to keep it-

或者这就是你想要保留的-

Howie Liu: ...

刘浩威：……

actually, so Self Edge, which actually has a storefront, the main storefront is on Valencia Street in S.F.

事实上，Self Edge实际上有一个店面，主要店面位于旧金山的瓦伦西亚街。

They carry a lot of these items.

他们携带很多此类物品。

That's kind of their whole MO and they have like jeans and t-shirts.

这就是他们的全部风格，他们有牛仔裤和 T 恤。

I've gotten a lot.

我已经得到了很多。

I mean, they basically curate a really good selection of different actual makers.

我的意思是，他们基本上精选了不同的实际制造商。

One of them is called Studio D'Artisan, another one's called...

其中一个叫做 Studio D'Artisan，另一个叫做......

Actually, it's cool.

事实上，这很酷。

There's this company called...

有一家公司叫...

I think the umbrella company is actually just Toyo, T-O-Y-O, Manufacturing, which sounds like it's a big kind of like large-scale conglomerate, but it's anything but.

我认为伞式公司实际上就是东洋（Toyo）、T-O-Y-O、Manufacturing，这听起来像是一个大型企业集团，但事实并非如此。

It's like a really small-scale Japanese vintage manufacturer of clothing, but they have a few sub-brands.

这就像一家规模非常小的日本复古服装制造商，但他们有一些子品牌。

Howie Liu: They actually bought the rights to this American post-war brand that was kind of like Hanes, one of the like big four or five menswear, kind of undershirts and athletic wear brands called Whitesville.

Howie Liu：他们实际上购买了这个美国战后品牌的版权，该品牌有点像 Hanes，是四大或五家男装、汗衫和运动服品牌之一，名为 Whitesville。

I don't know where the name came from, but basically it's a bunch of like basic clothing, like t-shirts, et cetera, and this Japanese indie company, they bought the defunct basically name and now is reproducing clothes almost made to the exact shape and stack, and even with the exact recreation of the graphic packaging on these tees, but like today.

我不知道这个名字是从哪里来的，但基本上它是一堆类似基本的衣服，比如T恤等等，而这家日本独立公司，他们买了已经不复存在的基本名称，现在正在复制几乎按照精确形状和堆叠制作的衣服，甚至在这些T恤上精确再现图形包装，但就像今天一样。

I just think there's something really funny and ironic about they've taken an American post-war aesthetic and literal brand, but it's actually a indie small-scale Japanese manufacturing approach to making those clothes.

我只是觉得他们采用了美国战后美学和字面品牌，这确实很有趣和讽刺，但实际上这是一种独立的小规模日本制造方法来制造这些衣服。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like we just tapped into what could be a whole other podcast conversation about clothing and-

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得我们刚刚进入了另一个关于服装的播客对话，而且——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

but I'm going to pull us out of that.

但我会让我们摆脱困境。

Lenny Rachitsky: Or just Howie and Lenny talking about clothing.

Lenny Rachitsky：或者只是 Howie 和 Lenny 谈论服装。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a life motto that you often find useful in working or you like to share with friends or family?

Lenny Rachitsky：您是否有一条在工作中经常有用的人生格言，或者您喜欢与朋友或家人分享的人生格言？

Howie Liu: I stumbled on this guy Paul Conti, who I think he's an MD, but also a psychologist, and he has a book, but also he did this long-form podcast with Andrew Huberman, and he actually ends up talking a lot about just how to think about your life outlook and kind of your framework for thinking about life, but grounded in a kind of like scientific and neurological and cognitive science basis.

Howie Liu：我偶然发现了保罗·康蒂（Paul Conti）这个人，我认为他是一名医学博士，也是一名心理学家，他有一本书，而且他还与安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）一起做了这个长篇播客，他实际上最终谈论了很多关于如何思考你的人生观和思考生活的框架，但建立在科学、神经学和认知科学的基础上。

I found one particular point really, really powerful it took with me, which is if you live your life in a way that's foundationally built around humility and gratitude.

我发现一个特别非常强大的观点对我来说非常非常强大，那就是如果你以一种基本建立在谦卑和感恩的方式生活的话。

Look, everybody has different circumstances.

你看，每个人的情况不同。

Howie Liu: I think I fully own that even though I didn't come from money, my family was very, very financially modest growing up.

刘豪：我想我完全承认，尽管我不是出身于金钱，但我的家庭在成长过程中经济条件非常非常简朴。

I still had incredible resources and opportunities afforded to me even just by virtue of growing up in the U.S., being born in and growing up in the U.S., but also having access to a computer and the internet and even all the free resources I could then access and learn about from there.

我仍然拥有令人难以置信的资源和机会，即使只是因为在美国长大，在美国出生和长大，而且还可以使用计算机和互联网，甚至是我可以从那里访问和学习的所有免费资源。

I still feel like whatever you have or don't have to start with, if you kind of approach the world and kind of the future with a spirit of humility and gratitude rather than, I guess, the opposite of that, I think I've felt like it kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

我仍然觉得，无论你有或没有什么，如果你以谦卑和感恩的精神来对待世界和未来，而不是相反，我想我觉得它变成了一个自我实现的预言。

You're open-minded, you're kind of grateful, and then more opportunities actually come your way, and maybe it's because the energy you're putting out into the world and other people.

你思想开放，心存感激，然后更多的机会就会真正降临到你身上，也许是因为你为世界和其他人付出了精力。

Howie Liu: You're kind of attracting good opportunities and good people and good things, but I think there's a lot of other parts of his framework, but the one that is easiest to remember is like, how do I approach each day?

Howie Liu：你有点吸引好的机会、好的人和好的事情，但我认为他的框架还有很多其他部分，但最容易记住的部分是，我如何度过每一天？

Even if I'm going through a tough moment and I had to fire somebody today, or maybe I get disappointed because we lost a customer deal or something broke or whatever, but to still try to look at the entire situation from overall a feeling of humility and gratitude I think just really does shift your like...

即使我正在经历一个艰难的时刻，今天我不得不解雇某人，或者也许我会因为我们失去了客户交易或出现问题或其他什么而感到失望，但仍然尝试从整体上看待整个情况，一种谦卑和感激的感觉，我认为这确实会改变你的喜好......

It spills over into everything else for that day and maybe even for the whole lifetime.

它会渗透到那天甚至一生的其他一切事情中。

Lenny Rachitsky: That super resonates.

Lenny Rachitsky：这引起了超级共鸣。

That is really powerful advice that's hard to internalize, but important.

这是非常有力的建议，很难内化，但很重要。

Howie Liu: Yeah, it's easily said, hard to practice.

刘豪：是啊，说起来容易，做起来难。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Where can folks find you?

人们在哪里可以找到你？

What should they know about Airtable and how can listeners be useful to you?

他们应该了解 Airtable 的哪些信息以及听众如何对您有用？

Howie Liu: Okay, so I am on Twitter, howietl.

Howie Liu：好的，我在推特上，howietl。

I don't post that much, but I'm a lurker, so I listen and watch, and you can always DM me there.

我发的帖子不多，但我是一个潜伏者，所以我会听、看，你可以随时私信我。

You can also email me directly, howie@airtable.com, anytime you have ideas, feedback, et cetera.

如果您有想法、反馈等，也可以直接给我发电子邮件：howie@airtable.com。

On Airtable, just go try it.

在 Airtable 上，就去尝试一下吧。

The whole point is we want to make this an experiential product.

重点是我们希望将其打造成一款体验式产品。

That's why we're really leaning into the PLG roots.

这就是为什么我们真正倾向于 PLG 根源。

We talked about the homepage literally says like, "Just start building right now.

我们谈到主页字面意思是：“现在就开始构建。

What do you want to build?

你想建造什么？

Go."

走吧。”

Howie Liu: It starts building, and so use the product, give me feedback, and if you have ideas of your own and you want to rip on them, I love because my passion is thinking about product and product UX, especially in the AI era if you're working on or thinking about something interesting in that space.

Howie Liu：它开始构建，然后使用产品，给我反馈，如果你有自己的想法并且你想把它们撕碎，我喜欢，因为我的热情是思考产品和产品用户体验，特别是在人工智能时代，如果你正在该领域工作或思考一些有趣的事情。

Even if it's just purely to riff on a concept, that's something I enjoy doing, and maybe I get to learn and sharpen my own skill set from.

即使只是纯粹地重复一个概念，这也是我喜欢做的事情，也许我可以从中学习和提高自己的技能。

Feel free to reach out and, yeah, I mean, tell your friends and family to try Airtable as well.

请随时联系您，是的，我的意思是，告诉您的朋友和家人也尝试一下 Airtable。

That's the main thing.

这是主要的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Sounds like you're looking for people to nerd snipe you and-

Lenny Rachitsky：听起来你在找人来狙击你，然后-

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

Howie, thank you so much for being here.

豪伊，非常感谢你来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。