How to build a team that can “take a punch” | Hilary Gridley (Head of Core Product, Whoop)

Hilary Gridley: Product leadership is the type of role where if you are not in control of the voices in your head, they will eat you alive.

希拉里·格里德利：产品领导是这样一种角色，如果你不能控制头脑中的声音，它们就会活活吃掉你。

Lenny Rachitsky: You spend a lot of time thinking about how to help your team learn to take a punch.

Lenny Rachitsky：你花了很多时间思考如何帮助你的团队学会承受打击。

Hilary Gridley: If they come to me and they're upset, I try to focus them less around how you litigate another person's impression of you and more on what is the action that you can take to counter program the narrative that you are afraid that this other person has of you.

希拉里·格里德利（Hilary Gridley）：如果他们来找我并且感到不安，我会尽量让他们少关注你如何对别人对你的印象提出诉讼，而更多地关注你可以采取什么行动来反制你担心别人对你的看法。

What are you going to do next to demonstrate that you are the person that you know yourself to be?

接下来你要做什么来证明你就是你所认识的自己？

Lenny Rachitsky: You have specific tactics that you teach your team to deal with hardship.

Lenny Rachitsky：您教您的团队应对困难的具体策略。

Hilary Gridley: I would really love it if more people were like, "Screw it.

希拉里·格里德利：如果有更多人说“管它呢”，我真的会很高兴。

I'm going to do something that's probably going to fail.

我要做一些可能会失败的事情。

It's important and it's worth doing and I'm going to do it well."

这很重要，值得做，我会做得很好。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there something you've learned about when your leader tells you to do something you disagree with?

Lenny Rachitsky：当你的领导告诉你做你不同意的事情时，你是否学到了什么？

Hilary Gridley: People think that the game is all about influencing the CEO, influencing the people around them.

希拉里·格里德利：人们认为这个游戏就是影响首席执行官、影响周围的人。

You come up thinking like you're the protagonist.

你一出现就认为自己是主角。

But in the story of work, you are probably not the protagonist.

但在工作的故事里，你很可能不是主角。

You're not special.

你并不特别。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Hilary Gridley.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天我的客人是希拉里·格里德利。

Hilary is head of core product at Whoop.

希拉里 (Hilary) 是 Whoop 核心产品负责人。

Previously, she was a senior director of product at Big Health and a senior product marketing manager at Dropbox.

此前，她曾担任 Big Health 的高级产品总监和 Dropbox 的高级产品营销经理。

Even more importantly, she wrote what is now the sixth most popular post of all time in my newsletter, How to Become a Super Manager with AI.

更重要的是，她在我的时事通讯中撰写了目前第六受欢迎的帖子《如何利用人工智能成为超级经理》。

She's also the first ever cross over guest between this podcast and our sister podcast, How I AI with Claire Vo.

她也是该播客和我们的姊妹播客“How I AI with Claire Vo”之间的第一位跨界嘉宾。

Lenny Rachitsky: And not just that, her episode with Claire is on track to be the most popular episode of the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：不仅如此，她与克莱尔的剧集有望成为播客中最受欢迎的剧集。

So all that to say, Hilary is incredible and I'm so excited to continue learning from her.

综上所述，希拉里是令人难以置信的，我很高兴能继续向她学习。

This conversation is packed with advice that will make you a better product leader, builder and also just a better human.

这次对话充满了建议，这些建议将使您成为更好的产品领导者、构建者，同时也是一个更好的人。

If you know what's good for you, you don't want to miss this episode.

如果您知道什么对您有好处，那么您就不想错过这一集。

A big thank you to Sam Propis, Danielle Reynold, and Kelvin Wong for sharing suggestions for this conversation.

非常感谢 Sam Propis、Danielle Reynold 和 Kelvin Wong 就本次对话分享建议。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of incredible products, including Superhuman, Notion, Linear, Perplexity, and Granola.

此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的一堆令人难以置信的产品，包括 Super human、Notion、Linear、Perplexity 和 Granola。

Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click bundle.

请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。

With that, I bring you Hilary Gridley.

接下来，我为您带来希拉里·格里德利。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。

That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow, and Loom.

Lenny Rachitsky：如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。

WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine-grained authorization service.

WorkOS 最近还收购了细粒度授权服务 Warrant。

Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.

Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。

Lenny Rachitsky: This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.

Lenny Rachitsky：这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。

If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, SCIM, or user management, you should consider WorkOS.

如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。

It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free.

它是 Auth0 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。

Check it out at WorkOS.com to learn more.

请访问 WorkOS.com 了解更多信息。

That's WorkOS.com.

这就是 WorkOS.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Persona, the adaptable identity platform that helps businesses fight fraud, meet compliance requirements, and build trust.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Persona 为您带来，Persona 是一个适应性强的身份平台，可帮助企业打击欺诈、满足合规性要求并建立信任。

While you're listening to this right now, how do you know that you're really listening to me, Lenny?

当你现在正在听这个时，你怎么知道你真的在听我说话，莱尼？

These days, it's easier than ever for fraudsters to steal PII, faces, and identities.

如今，欺诈者比以往任何时候都更容易窃取 PII、面孔和身份。

That's where Persona comes in.

这就是角色发挥作用的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: Persona helps leading companies like LinkedIn, Etsy, and Twilio securely verify individuals and businesses across the world.

Lenny Rachitsky：Persona 帮助 LinkedIn、Etsy 和 Twilio 等领先公司安全地验证世界各地的个人和企业。

What sets Persona apart is its configurability.

Persona 的独特之处在于它的可配置性。

Every company has different needs depending on its industry use cases, risk tolerance, and user demographics.

每个公司都有不同的需求，具体取决于其行业用例、风险承受能力和用户人口统计数据。

That's why Persona offers flexible building blocks that allow you to build tailored collection and verification flows that maximize conversion while minimizing risk.

这就是为什么 Persona 提供灵活的构建模块，使您能够构建定制的收集和验证流程，从而最大限度地提高转化率，同时最大限度地降低风险。

Lenny Rachitsky: Plus, Persona's orchestration tools automate your identity process so that you can fight rapidly shifting fraud and meet new waves of regulation.

Lenny Rachitsky：此外，Persona 的编排工具可以自动化您的身份流程，以便您可以对抗快速变化的欺诈行为并满足新一波的监管要求。

Whether you're a startup or an enterprise business, Persona has a plan for you.

无论您是初创公司还是大型企业，Persona 都有适合您的计划。

Learn more at withpersona.com/lenny.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 withpersona.com/lenny。

Again, that's with-P-E-R-S-O-N-A.

再说一次，那就是-P-E-R-S-O-N-A。

com/lenny.

com/莱尼。

Hilary, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

希拉里，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Hilary Gridley: Thank you, Lenny.

希拉里·格里德利：谢谢你，莱尼。

I'm so excited to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: I talked to a bunch of people that I work with you about what we should talk about and what you're amazing at.

Lenny Rachitsky：我和一群和你一起工作的人讨论了我们应该谈论什么以及你擅长什么。

First of all, every one of them loves working with you so much.

首先，他们每个人都非常喜欢和你一起工作。

One of them is like, "I joined Whoop just to work with Hilary and to report to her."

其中之一是，“我加入 Whoop 只是为了与希拉里一起工作并向她汇报。”

Lenny Rachitsky: And of that, there's this theme that emerged that I think is a good overarching theme for our conversation, and it's something that you spend a lot of time thinking about, and it's how to help your team and how to help people within your company learn to take a punch.

Lenny Rachitsky：其中出现了一个主题，我认为这是我们谈话的一个很好的总体主题，这是你花很多时间思考的事情，它是如何帮助你的团队以及如何帮助公司内的人们学会承受打击。

Essentially, how to help them deal with hard stuff and do hard stuff and build hard things.

本质上，如何帮助他们处理困难的事情、做困难的事情、构建困难的事情。

So I guess just broadly, does that ring a bell?

所以我想大致而言，这是否引起了人们的注意？

Does that resonate?

这引起共鸣吗？

Hilary Gridley: Yeah, absolutely.

希拉里·格里德利：是的，绝对如此。

It's something I care a lot about.

这是我非常关心的事情。

I've been, I think, pretty lucky in my career.

我认为，我的职业生涯非常幸运。

I've been very drawn to working on hard product problems, regulated areas, really hard business models, things with pretty high emotional stakes for the users of the products.

我非常喜欢解决棘手的产品问题、监管领域、真正困难的商业模式以及对产品用户来说具有相当高的情感风险的事情。

You're really likely to run into a lot of setbacks along the way.

一路上你真的很可能会遇到很多挫折。

And I think this is really relevant today because I look out and I talk to a lot of people and I hear fear and I hear uncertainty, and I think it comes from a few places.

我认为这在今天确实很重要，因为我观察并与很多人交谈，我听到了恐惧和不确定性，我认为它来自几个地方。

Hilary Gridley: I think obviously I'm really excited about AI and how it's transforming the way we work, and I think a lot of people are, but I think a lot of people are scared too.

希拉里·格里德利：我想显然我对人工智能以及它如何改变我们的工作方式感到非常兴奋，我认为很多人都是如此，但我认为很多人也感到害怕。

And they're embracing these tools, they're learning these tools, but a lot of them have a question in the back of their mind, what does this mean for the future of my job?

他们正在拥抱这些工具，他们正在学习这些工具，但他们中的很多人内心深处都有一个问题，这对我未来的工作意味着什么？

And in many cases, what does this mean for my identity?

在许多情况下，这对我的身份意味着什么？

Hilary Gridley: I think it makes people question even just how we provide value as humans in society.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为这甚至让人们质疑我们作为人类如何在社会中提供价值。

And I also think people, especially young people, today haven't even necessarily been in a career environment where there wasn't always a thread of layoffs or things like that.

我还认为，今天的人们，尤其是年轻人，甚至不一定处于一个不总是存在裁员或类似情况的职业环境中。

And I think that's taken a real psychic toll on a lot of people.

我认为这对很多人的精神造成了真正的伤害。

And so I think all managers now really need to be able to lead their teams through uncertainty, through fear, through hard things.

所以我认为现在所有的管理者都需要能够带领他们的团队克服不确定性、克服恐惧、克服困难。

Hilary Gridley: And I love the concept of taking a punch.

希拉里·格里德利：我喜欢挨打的概念。

I've got a couple other tools that I like to use, but I think it can teach people how to thrive in these environments.

我还有一些我喜欢使用的其他工具，但我认为它可以教会人们如何在这些环境中茁壮成长。

And it's really important to me because I would love if more people took on hard things.

这对我来说非常重要，因为如果有更多的人承担困难的事情，我会很高兴。

I think there's so many really hard challenging problems out there to solve.

我认为有很多非常困难且具有挑战性的问题需要解决。

Hilary Gridley: And the more people are fearful about the future of their careers or the future of work, I think the more they gravitate toward things that they feel like they're likely to succeed at.

希拉里·格里德利：人们对自己职业生涯或工作未来的恐惧越多，我认为他们就越倾向于那些他们认为自己可能成功的事情。

And I think that's wonderful.

我认为这很棒。

We need that too, but I would really love it if more people were like, "Screw it.

我们也需要这个，但如果有更多的人说“管它呢”，我真的会很高兴。

I'm going to do something that's probably going to fail and it's important and it's worth doing and I'm going to do it well."

我要做一些可能会失败的事情，它很重要，值得做，而且我会做得很好。”

Lenny Rachitsky: There's so many Venn diagrams of why this skill is so important, especially today.

Lenny Rachitsky：有很多维恩图说明了为什么这项技能如此重要，尤其是在今天。

One is it feels like the easy stuff is done.

一是感觉简单的事情已经完成了。

The stuff left to build is hard.

留下来构建的东西很困难。

It feels like hardware, deep tech is where things are heading.

感觉硬件、深度技术才是事情的发展方向。

Also, just machine learning, AI skills, just stuff that's really hard.

另外，机器学习、人工智能技能，这些都是非常困难的东西。

And then the other is just AI is just changing so much.

另一个是人工智能正在发生巨大的变化。

It's just such a stressful time and hard time for a lot of people.

对于很多人来说，这是一个充满压力和艰难的时期。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's actually walk through some of the things that you have learned about how to help people get good at these things, about how to help people learn to take a punch, AKA do hard things, deal with struggle.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们实际上回顾一下您学到的一些事情，如何帮助人们擅长这些事情，如何帮助人们学会承受打击，也就是做困难的事情，应对斗争。

The first is you actually actively teach them.

首先是你实际上积极地教导他们。

You have specific tactics that you teach your team to deal with hardship and to take a punch.

你有具体的策略来教你的团队应对困难和承受打击。

So what are some of those things?

那么其中有哪些事情呢？

What are some of the things that you teach your team and help them develop a skill?

您教给您的团队并帮助他们发展技能的事情有哪些？

Hilary Gridley: So at its core, when I say take a punch, what I mean is you're going to run into situations where something has gone wrong.

希拉里·格里德利：所以，从本质上讲，当我说接受打击时，我的意思是你会遇到出问题的情况。

Maybe you have misstepped.

也许你走错了。

Maybe you are just hearing someone speak critically about your work.

也许您只是听到有人批评您的工作。

Whatever it might be, you're going to feel like you have taken a punch.

不管是什么，你都会感觉自己挨了一拳。

Hilary Gridley: It's a very physical feeling.

希拉里·格里德利：这是一种非常肉体的感觉。

And I think as managers, you spend a lot of time teaching your team how to be successful.

我认为作为管理者，你会花很多时间教导你的团队如何取得成功。

You want to prepare them to maximize the chances of good outcome.

您想让他们做好准备，以最大限度地提高获得良好结果的机会。

But if you don't also prepare them for what happens when that outcome isn't as good, you're going to run into some problems.

但如果你不让他们做好准备，应对结果不佳时会发生的情况，你就会遇到一些问题。

Hilary Gridley: And so when I think about how to take a punch, what I say to my team is if they come to me and they're upset because something has happened, maybe they said something in a meeting that wasn't received well, or again, they're hearing somebody else talk about them in some way, whatever it is, I try to focus them less around whatever happened and how you litigate another person's impression of you based on something that has already happened, and more on what is the action that you can take next to counter program the narrative that you are afraid that this other person has of you.

希拉里·格里德利：所以，当我考虑如何承受打击时，我对我的团队说的是，如果他们来找我，他们因为发生了一些事情而感到不安，也许他们在会议上说了一些没有被很好接受的事情，或者再次，他们听到其他人以某种方式谈论他们，无论是什么，我尽量让他们少关注发生的事情以及你如何根据已经发生的事情来争论别人对你的印象，更多地关注你下一步可以采取的行动来对抗你害怕其他人对你的叙述。

Hilary Gridley: And I think the counter program piece is really important.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为计数器程序非常重要。

Because whenever we feel our egos injured, I think it's very natural for all of us to say like, "Well, that's not fair.

因为每当我们感到自尊心受到伤害时，我认为我们所有人都会很自然地说：“嗯，这不公平。

I want to correct the record." When you do that, I think more than often, more often than not, you come off as just looking defensive and you start obsessing over things that you don't actually have control over, which is what another person thinks of you.

我想纠正这个记录。”我认为，当你这样做时，你往往会表现出防御性的态度，并且开始沉迷于你实际上无法控制的事情，这就是别人对你的看法。

You don't even necessarily have that information.

您甚至不一定拥有该信息。

Hilary Gridley: And so I always ask myself in these moments, what is one thing that I can do, small, that will demonstrate the opposite of what I'm afraid this person thinks of me?

希拉里·格里德利：所以，在这些时刻，我总是问自己，我能做的一件事是什么，即使很小，也能证明我担心这个人对我的看法相反？

And so I'll give you an example of this.

所以我会给你举一个例子。

I was in a meeting a while ago, and we were talking about different things that we wanted to start tracking in the Whoop Journal.

不久前我参加了一次会议，我们正在讨论我们想要在《Whoop Journal》中开始追踪的不同事情。

And our chief technology officer suggested ketamine tracking.

我们的首席技术官建议进行氯胺酮追踪。

Hilary Gridley: And I thought she was making a joke and I laughed, and she looked at me very seriously and was like, "This isn't funny, Hilary.

希拉里·格里德利：我以为她在开玩笑，我笑了，她很严肃地看着我，说：“这不好笑，希拉里。

This is a serious issue for a lot of people, and it's an emerging problem in some cases.

对于很多人来说，这是一个严重的问题，并且在某些情况下这是一个新出现的问题。

And I think we should take it seriously.

我认为我们应该认真对待它。

I think there's a lot of value we could provide here." And I was completely humiliated.

我认为我们可以在这里提供很多价值。”我完全被羞辱了。

Humiliated because I actually take this stuff really seriously.

感到羞辱是因为我真的非常认真地对待这件事。

I take addiction really seriously.

我非常认真地对待成瘾问题。

I have a ton of empathy for people who struggle with it.

我对那些与之抗争的人充满同情。

Hilary Gridley: And I also think of myself as somebody who embraces new ideas and wants to be on the forefront and would never laugh off something that seems like a fringe issue that's I think becoming actually more and more a big part of what's happening today.

希拉里·格里德利：我也认为自己是一个拥抱新想法、想要走在最前沿的人，永远不会对那些看似边缘问题的事情一笑置之，我认为它实际上越来越成为当今正在发生的事情的重要组成部分。

And so I realized that in that moment I was having that reaction because of the feeling that it gave me about who I am as a person, and I became so worried that this other person had the wrong impression of me.

所以我意识到，在那一刻我有这样的反应，因为它让我感觉到我是谁，我变得非常担心这个人对我有错误的印象。

Hilary Gridley: And I wanted to follow up with her after and say, "Let me explain myself.

希拉里·格里德利：之后我想跟进她说：“让我解释一下。

Let me explain why I didn't mean that," or whatever it is.

让我解释一下为什么我不是那个意思，”或者不管它是什么。

But as I said, I think usually you're fighting a losing battle when you're trying to do that, and it draws attention to the thing that you did poorly.

但正如我所说，我认为当你尝试这样做时，通常你正在打一场失败的战斗，并且它会引起人们对你做得不好的事情的关注。

And you don't really want to draw more attention to it.

而且你真的不想引起更多的关注。

You want to move on, take action, move forward.

你想要继续前进，采取行动，继续前进。

And so I thought about, well, what am I afraid that she thinks of me?

所以我想，好吧，我担心她怎么看我？

Hilary Gridley: I'm afraid that she thinks that maybe I don't take some of these health issues seriously.

希拉里·格里德利：我担心她认为我可能没有认真对待其中一些健康问题。

I'm afraid she thinks that maybe I'm somebody who laughs off emerging trends.

我担心她认为我可能是一个对新兴趋势一笑置之的人。

And so I thought about what's something that I could do to demonstrate the opposite of that?

所以我想我可以做些什么来证明相反的情况？

Hilary Gridley: And I did some research very, very quickly on what are some emerging public health concerns that people really aren't talking about that would be interesting to track?

希拉里·格里德利：我非常非常快地做了一些研究，研究了哪些新出现的公共卫生问题，人们确实没有谈论，但追踪起来很有趣？

And I found some interesting research about sports betting, and especially young people in sports betting, and it's becoming this thing that a lot of public health experts are very worried about.

我发现了一些关于体育博彩的有趣研究，尤其是体育博彩中的年轻人，这正在成为很多公共卫生专家非常担心的事情。

Hilary Gridley: And so I very quickly just sent her a note that said, "Wanted to build on this idea you had today.

希拉里·格里德利：所以我很快就给她发了一张便条，上面写着：“想要在你今天的这个想法的基础上继续发展。

I really liked that idea, by the way.

顺便说一句，我真的很喜欢这个主意。

I saw this article, I saw this research about this other emerging thing, sports betting, and I think it'd be really interesting for us to start tracking that because we could maybe draw some correlations between people stress.

我看到了这篇文章，我看到了关于另一个新兴事物——体育博彩的研究，我认为我们开始跟踪它真的很有趣，因为我们也许可以得出人们压力之间的一些相关性。

We have a stress monitor in Whoop.

我们在 Whoop 中有一个压力监测器。

We can track their stress.

我们可以追踪他们的压力。

We could draw interesting correlations between betting behaviors and stress levels."

我们可以在博彩行为和压力水平之间得出有趣的相关性。”

Hilary Gridley: And so that's all I did.

希拉里·格里德利：这就是我所做的一切。

It took me five, 10 minutes total.

我一共花了五到十分钟。

But I think it's a great example of showing this idea of counter-program that narrative, don't fight about the narrative.

但我认为这是一个很好的例子，展示了反计划叙事的想法，不要为叙事而战。

And so when I teach this to my team, I'm always doing the same thing.

因此，当我向我的团队教授这一点时，我总是做同样的事情。

They come to me.

他们来找我。

They seem agitated about something and I say to them, "It seems like this is really bothering you.

他们似乎对某事感到焦躁，我对他们说：“看来这真的让你烦恼。

What's going on in your head?

你脑子里在想什么？

What are you afraid of?

你怕什么？

What are you worried about?" And often it will emerge, "I'm worried that this other person thinks I'm bad at my job.

你担心什么？”通常会出现这样的情况：“我担心其他人认为我的工作做得不好。

I'm worried that this person thinks I'm an idiot," whatever it is.

我担心这个人认为我是个白痴，”不管是什么。

And I challenge that.

我对此提出质疑。

I think this is really important for managers too to challenge this negative thinking when you see it happen and not just validate it and allow them to go down these negative spirals.

我认为这对于管理者来说也非常重要，当你看到这种消极想法发生时，挑战它，而不仅仅是验证它并允许他们走入这些消极的螺旋。

Hilary Gridley: I challenge it and I say, "First of all, I don't think there's evidence for that.

希拉里·格里德利：我对此提出质疑，并说：“首先，我认为没有证据证明这一点。

Is there evidence for that?

有证据证明这一点吗？

And even if there is, it doesn't really matter.

即使有，也并不重要。

What's something that you could do to show them that it's not true because you know it's not true?"

你可以做些什么来向他们表明这不是真的，因为你知道这不是真的？”

Hilary Gridley: And I think giving people that power to focus on the next step they can take and the action that they can take that helps them feel more secure in their identity in who they are because their action demonstrates that, it just gets them out of that negative thinking and it gets them through that trough of despair that comes after you feel like you took a punch.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为，赋予人们权力，让他们专注于他们可以采取的下一步和他们可以采取的行动，这有助于他们对自己的身份感到更加安全，因为他们的行动表明，这只会让他们摆脱消极思维，让他们度过在你感觉自己受到了一拳之后的绝望低谷。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the idea here is when you're afraid somebody that matters in your career thinks ill of you, of something that you did, of you're not good at something or you think something that they're not happy about, this is a version of getting punched basically is you just feeling like someone thinks you're not doing a great job.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这里的想法是，当你害怕在你的职业生涯中重要的人对你、你所做的事情、你不擅长的事情或你认为他们不满意的事情有不好的看法时，这就是被打的一个版本，基本上就是你感觉有人认为你做得不好。

And so the tactic here is how to change their mind almost about you and give you something tangible to do.

所以这里的策略是如何改变他们对你的看法并给你一些切实可行的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

And so the question to ask, and I wrote this down as you were talking, is, and this is what you ask of your reports, what is the one thing that you can do that demonstrates the opposite of what you think this person thinks about you?

所以要问的问题是，我在你谈话时写下了这个问题，这就是你对报告的要求，你能做的一件事是什么，表明你认为这个人对你的看法相反？

Hilary Gridley: Exactly.

希拉里·格里德利：没错。

This comes up all the time.

这种情况一直都会出现。

There will be narratives that emerge, some are good, some are bad, about you and your career.

将会出现一些关于你和你的职业的叙述，有些是好的，有些是坏的。

And I think especially when people get to a place where they're putting themselves out there more, they're talking in more presentations, they're talking in more meetings, it's very natural for them to become concerned with the perception themselves.

我认为，尤其是当人们更多地展示自己，在更多的演示中发言，在更多的会议中发言时，他们很自然地会关心自己的看法。

Hilary Gridley: And it is scary because it feels like something, as I said, you don't have control over.

希拉里·格里德利：这很可怕，因为就像我说的，你无法控制。

And so exactly.

确实如此。

If instead of focusing people around what do these people think of me, you focus them around, well, what are you going to do next to demonstrate that you are the person that you know yourself to be, I think that can just be incredibly effective at giving people more of a sense of agency.

如果你不是把人们的注意力集中在这些人对我的看法上，而是把他们的注意力集中在你接下来要做什么来证明你是你认识的那个人，我认为这可以非常有效地给人们带来更多的代理感。

Lenny Rachitsky: I guess talk about the balance of I'm just going to prove everyone wrong against what they think versus here's who I am and I know this is me and this person is mistaken.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈我只是要证明每个人都错了，与他们的想法相反，这就是我，我知道这就是我，这个人错了。

And instead of debating them, I'm going to show them who I am.

我不会与他们辩论，而是要向他们展示我是谁。

Just not overstressing about everyone thinking things about you in different ways.

只是不要过分强调每个人都以不同的方式看待你。

Hilary Gridley: There is some value I think in having a little bit of a chip on your shoulder.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为有点怨言是有一定价值的。

You see that people who are really successful, they do have a little bit of like, "I'm going to prove them wrong." And so I don't want to say that you shouldn't think about it at all or you shouldn't care.

你看，那些真正成功的人，他们确实有一点这样的想法，“我要证明他们是错的。”所以我不想说你根本不应该考虑它或者你不应该关心。

Of course, it's natural to care, and of course, it's fine to care, but I do want to just help my team build this habit of doing the things that you know to be right and having conviction in that.

当然，关心是很自然的，当然，关心也很好，但我确实想帮助我的团队养成这种习惯，做你知道正确的事情，并坚信这一点。

Hilary Gridley: Being open to learning along the way and calibrating as you go, but not becoming overly concerned with your fears of what other people are going to think of you.

希拉里·格里德利（Hilary Gridley）：保持开放的态度，一路学习，不断调整，但不要过度担心别人会怎么看你。

Because I think especially for otherwise really thoughtful, really the people who are hard on themselves, I think that that just holds them back from being the person that they can be.

因为我认为，特别是对于那些在其他方面非常有思想、对自己严格要求的人，我认为这只会阻碍他们成为他们能成为的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: So a key part of this is, this is going to help you stop just spiraling on thinking about what they think about you and gives you something to do that will change that.

Lenny Rachitsky：因此，其中的一个关键部分是，这将帮助您停止不断地思考他们对您的看法，并为您提供一些可以改变这一点的事情。

And then the other key point here is don't try to convince them otherwise.

这里的另一个关键点是不要试图以其他方式说服他们。

You're not going to go to your manager like, "Oh, I really think ketamine therapy and addiction is really important, and I didn't mean to say it this way," and that kind of thing.

你不会对你的经理说，“哦，我真的认为氯胺酮治疗和成瘾非常重要，我不是故意这样说的”之类的话。

Hilary Gridley: I'm not interested in litigating the things that happened already when we can move forward.

希拉里·格里德利（Hilary Gridley）：当我们能够继续前进时，我对对已经发生的事情提起诉讼不感兴趣。

And I'm certainly not interested in litigating what another person thinks about a thing that happened.

我当然不想对别人对所发生的事情的看法提起诉讼。

I feel like I've spent so much time talking to people in meetings, whatever it is, where it's just this ruminating on something that has already happened.

我觉得我花了很多时间在会议上与人们交谈，无论是什么，只是对已经发生的事情进行反思。

It's very anxious thinking pattern, I think, and people can just get stuck in it.

我认为这是一种非常焦虑的思维模式，人们可能会陷入其中。

And so let them do it.

所以就让他们去做吧。

Hilary Gridley: It's like when you get bad feedback or critical feedback and you naturally have this reaction of, "Oh, well, that's not fair because they don't understand.

希拉里·格里德利：就像当你收到不好的反馈或批评的反馈时，你自然会有这样的反应，“哦，好吧，这不公平，因为他们不理解。

I actually have numbers I have to deliver on, or I only had 10 minutes to do this, so of course, it wasn't perfect." You naturally come up with these reasons why you are actually not wrong, and that's fine.

实际上我有一些数字需要交付，或者说我只有 10 分钟的时间来完成这件事，所以当然，这并不完美。”你自然会想出这些理由来说明你实际上没有错，这很好。

I don't want to say you should feel bad for doing that.

我不想说你应该因为这样做而感到难过。

Hilary Gridley: Let yourself have the pity party, let yourself feel those things, but then you got to move on as quickly as possible because those feelings, they actually do tend to spiral and get worse if you're not actively working against them.

希拉里·格里德利：让自己有怜悯的聚会，让自己感受到这些事情，但然后你必须尽快继续前进，因为如果你不积极地对抗它们，这些感觉实际上确实会螺旋式上升并变得更糟。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oftentimes these sorts of lessons come from the person experiencing this themselves.

Lenny Rachitsky：通常这些教训来自于经历过这种事的人。

Is this something that you dealt with when you're starting your career or even now?

这是您在开始职业生涯时甚至现在处理过的事情吗？

Hilary Gridley: Oh, absolutely, 100%.

希拉里·格里德利：哦，当然，100%。

And I think it is more than just my career, but just my general mental health and my life.

我认为这不仅仅是我的职业生涯，而是我的整体心理健康和我的生活。

A lot of where this comes from is a concept in cognitive behavioral therapy called behavioral activation.

这在很大程度上源自认知行为疗法中的一个概念，称为行为激活。

And in my former job, I was working for a company called Big Health and we make digital therapeutics.

在我之前的工作中，我在一家名为 Big Health 的公司工作，我们生产数字疗法。

So those are mobile apps that have been clinically validated to treat behavioral conditions like insomnia, depression, anxiety.

这些移动应用程序已经过临床验证，可以治疗失眠、抑郁、焦虑等行为疾病。

Hilary Gridley: And I was working on a new depression therapeutic, and so went very deep on this and was working with a really wonderful clinical team full of clinical psychologists who helped me understand the techniques that therapists use when they are working with people who have depression.

希拉里·格里德利：我正在研究一种新的抑郁症治疗方法，因此对此进行了深入研究，并与一个由临床心理学家组成的非常出色的临床团队合作，他们帮助我了解治疗师在治疗抑郁症患者时使用的技术。

And so much of depression is characterized by these negative thinking patterns and this feeling that I feel bad and I just need to wait until I feel better, and then I'll start doing the things that are good for me.

抑郁症的大部分特点是这些消极的思维模式和这种感觉，我感觉很糟糕，我只需要等到我感觉好一点，然后我就会开始做对我有益的事情。

Hilary Gridley: I don't feel like responding to this text, so I'm just not going to do it, but I'll respond when I feel better.

希拉里·格里德利：我不想回复这条短信，所以我不会这样做，但当我感觉好点时我会回复。

I don't feel like working out, so I'm not going to do it, but I'll do it when I feel better.

我不想锻炼，所以我不会做，但当我感觉好一点时我会做。

And the truth is that doesn't go away on its own, especially if you have depression.

事实是，这种情况不会自行消失，尤其是当您患有抑郁症时。

Again, the idea of behavioral activation is you have to identify these actions that you can take that will reverse that negative spiral and will improve your mood.

同样，行为激活的想法是，你必须确定你可以采取的这些行动，这些行动将扭转这种负面循环并改善你的情绪。

Hilary Gridley: And so the misconception is I'll feel better and then I'll act.

希拉里·格里德利：所以误解是我会感觉好一点然后我就会采取行动。

And the thing that therapists try to teach people, they're working with them in therapy is I will act and then I will feel better.

治疗师试图教给人们的事情是，他们在治疗中与他们合作，我会采取行动，然后我会感觉更好。

But acting is hard if you are in the furrows of depression.

但如果你深陷抑郁之中，表演就会变得很困难。

And so easier said than done.

说起来容易做起来难。

And a lot of the work is in how you help people identify specific actions that they can take that will reliably lift their mood.

很多工作是如何帮助人们确定他们可以采取的能够可靠地改善他们情绪的具体行动。

Hilary Gridley: I mean, I have a list of myself.

希拉里·格里德利：我的意思是，我有一份自己的清单。

I've got a list on my phone of my behavioral activations, and it's things that I know I can do if I start feeling like the walls are closing around me, if I feel myself getting sucked into very low mood or negative thinking, or whatever it is.

我的手机上有一份我的行为激活清单，如果我开始感觉周围的墙壁正在关闭，如果我感觉自己陷入了非常低落的情绪或消极的想法，或者其他什么，我知道我可以做这些事情。

You can see how effective that is at just getting you out of there versus the instinct to just go and lay in bed and feel bad for yourself, which I understand very well.

你可以看到，与直接躺在床上为自己感到难过的本能相比，这对于让你离开那里是多么有效，我非常理解这一点。

Hilary Gridley: And so understanding that concept, which is at its core a therapeutic concept used in cognitive behavioral therapy, but it changed how I see the entire world and how I see, especially as a manager, the ways that people on my team think and behave and how easy it is to get stuck in some of these downward spirals that you really need to actively push back on.

希拉里·格里德利：所以理解这个概念，它的核心是认知行为疗法中使用的治疗概念，但它改变了我对整个世界的看法，以及我的看法，特别是作为一名经理，我团队中的人们的思考和行为方式，以及陷入一些你真正需要积极扭转的螺旋式下降中是多么容易。

And as a manager, I want to help them do that.

作为一名经理，我想帮助他们做到这一点。

Hilary Gridley: I want to help them, A, see that, see the ways they are in some ways sabotaging themselves, getting in their own ways with whatever is going on in their head.

希拉里·格里德利：我想帮助他们，A，看到这一点，看到他们在某种程度上破坏自己，无论他们脑子里发生了什么，都以自己的方式进行。

And then I want to help them counter-program it in themselves.

然后我想帮助他们自己反编程。

And also, as I said, counter-program the things that you are worried about out there as well.

而且，正如我所说，对你担心的事情也进行反编程。

Lenny Rachitsky: So interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太有趣了。

So the core of this technique is what's an action, and you said this, it could be very small.

所以这个技术的核心就是什么是动作，你说这个，它可以很小。

Lenny Rachitsky: That you can take that in this case shows someone else you're not who they think you are.

Lenny Rachitsky：在这种情况下，你可以接受这一点，这表明其他人你不是他们认为的那个人。

You're worried they think about you in a certain way and you want to take an action that helps them see you're not that.

你担心他们会以某种方式看待你，你想采取行动帮助他们认识到你不是那样的人。

Hilary Gridley: So yes, that's the taking the punch concept.

希拉里·格里德利：是的，这就是接受拳头的概念。

The behavioral activation could be anything.

行为激活可以是任何东西。

It can be picking up a piece of laundry off of the chair and putting it away, and that's just enough to get you out of the downward thing you're in.

它可以从椅子上捡起一件衣服并把它收起来，这足以让你摆脱困境。

So behavioral activation just conceptually is, how are you taking action to reverse the downward feeling or the negative feeling that you're feeling?

因此，行为激活从概念上来说就是，你如何采取行动来扭转你所感受到的沮丧或消极的感觉？

And then the take a punch concept is that applied in the context of I'm in a working environment.

然后，“打一拳”的概念适用于我在工作环境中的情况。

Hilary Gridley: I am very conscious of how I'm being perceived by other people.

希拉里·格里德利：我非常清楚别人如何看待我。

That's causing me a great deal of stress.

这给我带来很大的压力。

I think especially for product people who are...

我认为特别是对于产品人员来说...

So much of their self identity is wrapped up in having the answers, being competent, getting things done.

他们的自我认同很大程度上取决于找到答案、有能力、把事情做好。

And so many of them have been people who have been really good at that for most of their careers, which is how they got into these jobs in the first place.

他们中的许多人在职业生涯的大部分时间里都非常擅长这一点，这就是他们最初进入这些工作的原因。

Hilary Gridley: I think that can be an extremely stressful thing for them.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为这对他们来说可能是一件压力极大的事情。

That in many cases can be the driver of burnout and the driver of I can't really handle the stress of this job anymore.

在很多情况下，这可能是导致我精疲力竭的原因，也是我无法真正应对这份工作压力的原因。

And so I think the take a punch concept is more just applied to that specific problem of I'm struggling at work and I'm struggling largely because of my perceptions of other people and I want to feel more agency in that situation.

因此，我认为“挨打”的概念更适合于我在工作中遇到困难的具体问题，我之所以遇到困难，很大程度上是因为我对其他人的看法，我希望在这种情况下感受到更多的能动性。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is so cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太酷了。

On the idea of the specific take a punch concept, what kind of impact have you seen this have on people's mood and careers?

关于具体的“出拳”概念，您认为这对人们的情绪和职业产生了什么样的影响？

How big a deal is this specific tactic?

这个具体策略有多大意义？

Hilary Gridley: Well, I think it's a big deal on two levels.

希拉里·格里德利：嗯，我认为这在两个层面上都是一件大事。

One, it's a big deal because it can help you in a crisis or a minor crisis.

第一，这是一件大事，因为它可以在危机或小危机中帮助你。

But I actually think it's a bigger deal because I see so many people who don't put themselves out there because they're afraid of how it's going to go.

但我实际上认为这是一件更重要的事情，因为我看到很多人因为害怕事情会如何发展而不敢把自己暴露出来。

And so I think of the classic example of I'm often trying to encourage people to speak up in meetings more, to practice the skill of how you move a conversation forward in a way that can contribute value, both because doing so I think is important because nobody wants to be in bad meetings, but also because it will help with your career.

因此，我想到了一个典型的例子，我经常尝试鼓励人们在会议中多发言，练习如何以能够贡献价值的方式推动对话的技巧，因为我认为这样做很重要，因为没有人愿意参加糟糕的会议，而且因为这对你的职业生涯有所帮助。

Hilary Gridley: This is how you get on people's radar as somebody who's like, "Oh, that person's got great ideas, thinks about things the right way," whatever it is.

希拉里·格里德利（Hilary Gridley）：这就是你如何引起人们的注意，因为你会说“哦，那个人有很棒的想法，以正确的方式思考问题”，无论是什么。

I think it's one of these things that I talk to people about it and they are interested in coming to the meeting and hearing about these big decisions are getting made, but they just want to sit there and observe.

我认为这是我与人们谈论的事情之一，他们有兴趣参加会议并听到这些重大决策的制定，但他们只想坐在那里观察。

And I'm like, first of all, every additional person in a meeting has a cost, because every additional person in a meeting makes the people in that meeting less candid than they would have been if there were fewer people in that meeting.

我想，首先，会议中每增加一个人都会有成本，因为会议中每增加一个人都会使参加会议的人比参加会议的人更少时更不坦诚。

Hilary Gridley: And so one key piece of a meeting is you usually have a problem you're trying to solve collectively as a group.

希拉里·格里德利：所以会议的一个关键部分是，你通常会遇到一个需要作为一个团队集体解决的问题。

And it's really hard to do that if people are being overly cautious about what they're saying because there's too many people in there.

如果人们对自己所说的话过于谨慎，那么真的很难做到这一点，因为那里的人太多了。

So when I tell people this, I'm like, "It's really important that you earn your place in this meeting and let's work on how to do that."

因此，当我告诉人们这一点时，我会说，“在这次会议中赢得一席之地非常重要，让我们共同研究如何做到这一点。”

Hilary Gridley: And the core piece of that is you've got to say stuff that's valuable.

希拉里·格里德利：核心是你必须说有价值的东西。

And people always come up with all these excuses for why they can't do it.

人们总是想出各种借口来解释为什么他们做不到。

And one thing I've learned is that I think people are really good at coming up with very rational sounding reasons to not do things that just make them uncomfortable.

我学到的一件事是，我认为人们真的很擅长提出听起来非常合理的理由，不做只会让他们不舒服的事情。

But in their head they're like, "Oh no, I'm too junior.

但在他们的脑海里，他们会想，“哦，不，我太初级了。

Hilary Gridley: Nobody wants to hear what I have to say.

希拉里·格里德利：没有人想听我说的话。

Or everyone was already thinking it.

或者说大家都已经这么想了。

Or I like to process things internally.

或者我喜欢在内部处理事情。

And by the time I say them, the conversation moved on," whatever it is.

当我说这些的时候，谈话就继续了，“不管是什么。

So much of that skill, it's like a communication skill at its core, it's just how to express yourself verbally, but so much of the blocker of that is I think fear.

这种技能的大部分内容，就像其核心的沟通技巧一样，就是如何口头表达自己，但我认为，恐惧是其中的一大障碍。

Fear of saying the wrong thing.

生怕说错话。

Hilary Gridley: Fear of looking stupid.

希拉里·格里德利：害怕看起来很愚蠢。

Fear of just the discomfort of everyone in a room turning and looking at you as you're trying to formulate a half-baked thought.

害怕当你试图形成一个不成熟的想法时，房间里的每个人都转身看着你，这会让你感到不舒服。

And so if you can help people be less afraid of that, that's 90% of the challenge of actually improving some of these skills.

因此，如果你能帮助人们减少对此的恐惧，那么实际提高其中一些技能的挑战就解决了 90%。

And so I think when you give people the skills of taking a punch, you are helping them feel less afraid of getting the punch in the first place.

因此，我认为，当你向人们传授受拳打脚的技能时，你就是在帮助他们从一开始就不再害怕挨打。

And that's why I think it's so important.

这就是为什么我认为它如此重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's profound, the second order effect of the skill.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很深刻，是该技能的二阶效果。

There's something you mentioned when we were chatting earlier that stuck with me with this idea that too many PMs and too many people are playing on easy mode and not trying hard things.

我们之前聊天时您提到的一件事让我一直有这样的想法：太多的 PM 和太多的人都在玩简单模式，而不是尝试困难的事情。

Hilary Gridley: Uh-oh.

希拉里·格里德利：呃哦。

Maybe we'll get ourselves in trouble here.

也许我们会在这里遇到麻烦。

Hilary Gridley: Oh, I think this is my hot take.

希拉里·格里德利：哦，我认为这是我的热门观点。

You hear people talking about craft and taste and product management, and it's all very wonderful.

你听到人们谈论工艺、品味和产品管理，这一切都非常精彩。

And I'm totally on board.

我完全同意。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I'm a sucker for that kind of thing, but I'm like, well, if you are really in it just for pure love of the game, you just love product management, why are you building products for people exactly like you who have all your exact same at a company that sells to other companies that doesn't worry about pricing?

我对这类事情很着迷，但我想，好吧，如果你真的只是为了纯粹的游戏热爱，你只是喜欢产品管理，为什么你要为那些和你一模一样的人构建产品，而他们在一家公司向其他公司销售产品，而无需担心定价？

Hilary Gridley: There's no real...

希拉里·格里德利：没有真正的……

I mean, I don't want to act like I think this is easy, to be clear.

我的意思是，明确地说，我不想表现得好像我认为这很容易。

But in the grand scheme of things, I wish that the people who have this pure love of product management and have this pure love of building things that you would see more of that applied to building for low income people, building for social services, things like that, that really, really need that kind of work.

但从长远来看，我希望那些对产品管理有纯粹热爱、对构建事物有纯粹热爱的人，你会看到更多的东西应用于为低收入人群构建、为社会服务构建，诸如此类的事情，真的非常需要这样的工作。

Hilary Gridley: And I think there's a level of prestige obviously associated with working in certain companies, and you get less of that in other industries.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为在某些公司工作显然会带来一定程度的声望，而在其他行业你会获得较少的声望。

And so people would naturally gravitate toward that.

所以人们自然会倾向于这一点。

I totally get it.

我完全明白了。

I totally get it.

我完全明白了。

You get paid better.

你会得到更好的报酬。

No real judgment from me.

我没有真正的判断。

I wish I saw more, but I wish that you would see more people.

我希望我能看到更多，但我希望你能看到更多的人。

And I'll say this, I know there's a lot of you out there.

我要说的是，我知道你们中有很多人。

Hilary Gridley: I know there's a ton of people out there doing really, really important work in really, really hard spaces, and I see you and I appreciate it and shout out to you.

希拉里·格里德利：我知道有很多人在非常非常困难的空间里做着非常非常重要的工作，我看到你，我很感激并向你大声喊叫。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, I'm glad you shared that.

好的，我很高兴你分享了这一点。

Thank you.

谢谢。

I think this will resonate with a lot of people.

我想这会引起很多人的共鸣。

I want to move on to another trait/habits/skill that you are good at and help people learn, which is being very transparent in what's happening within the organization, within your thinking.

我想转向你擅长的另一种特质/习惯/技能，并帮助人们学习，这就是在你的思维中，组织内发生的事情非常透明。

You almost help people think the way you think and see the way you think so that they can operate at a higher level.

你几乎帮助人们以你的方式思考，以你的方式看待，这样他们就可以在更高的水平上运作。

Just talk about that, what that looks like and why that's important.

只需谈谈它、它是什么样子以及为什么它很重要。

Hilary Gridley: It's interesting, I think another thing I hear a lot of people complain about in organizations is the why do 10 people have to sign off on this email before I send it kind of problem.

希拉里·格里德利（Hilary Gridley）：这很有趣，我认为我听到很多人在组织中抱怨的另一件事是为什么在我发送这封电子邮件之前必须有 10 个人签署这样的问题。

And I think the answer to that is because those 10 people all have different information, different context, and in many cases, completely different working models for how the CEO of the company and other strategic leaders in the company think.

我认为答案是因为这 10 个人都有不同的信息、不同的背景，而且在很多情况下，公司首席执行官和公司其他战略领导者的思维方式完全不同。

Hilary Gridley: And it makes things super inefficient.

希拉里·格里德利：这使得事情变得非常低效。

I think people will often say like, "Oh, it's a process problem." It's not a process problem.

我认为人们经常会说，“哦，这是一个流程问题。”这不是工艺问题。

It's not approval problem.

这不是审批问题。

I think it's a transparency and it's communication problem, like downward communication, outward communication.

我认为这是一个透明度问题，也是一个沟通问题，比如向下沟通、向外沟通。

And what I mean by that is when I think about artifact-based communication, so reading a strategy document for...

我的意思是当我考虑基于工件的通信时，因此阅读策略文档......

Hilary Gridley: About artifact-based communication.

Hilary Gridley：关于基于工件的通信。

So reading a strategy document, for example.

例如，阅读战略文件。

Everyone at the company reads the strategy document.

公司的每个人都会阅读战略文件。

Great.

伟大的。

Everyone is working from the same idea of what the strategy is.

每个人都根据相同的战略理念开展工作。

But then things change, right?

但后来事情发生了变化，对吗？

Especially if you're working in a really dynamic space, new competitive threats emerge, new opportunities emerge all the time.

特别是如果您在一个真正充满活力的空间中工作，新的竞争威胁就会不断出现，新的机会也会不断出现。

This is especially true now with AI.

现在对于人工智能来说尤其如此。

Obviously everyone is lighting their strategies on fire and trying to figure out the best way to sort of transform their organization.

显然，每个人都在点燃自己的战略，并试图找出实现组织转型的最佳方式。

And so if the way that you understand what's going on at the company is from reading a document that was written six months ago, you're going to be working from outdated information and you're not going to be able to think and respond to new things that happen.

因此，如果您了解公司正在发生的事情的方式是通过阅读六个月前编写的文档，那么您将使用过时的信息进行工作，并且您将无法思考和应对发生的新事情。

Hilary Gridley: And so what is much more helpful than understanding what your CEO thinks is, I think understanding how your CEO thinks.

希拉里·格里德利：所以，我认为，比了解首席执行官的想法更有帮助的是，了解首席执行官的想法。

And that goes for all sorts of levels of the company.

这适用于公司的各个级别。

I want to understand how all the strategic leaders at my company think, and I want my team to understand how I think.

我想了解公司所有战略领导者的想法，我希望我的团队了解我的想法。

And when I feel confident that people on my team understand how I think, I don't need to read their emails, I don't need to approve things.

当我确信团队中的人理解我的想法时，我不需要阅读他们的电子邮件，我不需要批准事情。

The times where I feel like I need to do that is because I'm working with people where I'm like, I don't have confidence that these people understand how I think, or I don't have confidence that they understand how this email or whatever it is, is going to be received by this important person.

有时我觉得我需要这样做，因为我正在与我喜欢的人一起工作，我不相信这些人理解我的想法，或者我不相信他们理解这个重要的人将如何收到这封电子邮件或其他任何内容。

Hilary Gridley: And so I try to teach that to my team.

希拉里·格里德利：所以我尝试向我的团队传授这一点。

And the way that I do that is a few ways.

我这样做的方式有几种。

First, I'm in meetings with people, important people at the company.

首先，我正在与公司的重要人物开会。

So I'm constantly hearing the things that they're saying and paying attention to sort of the note behind the note.

因此，我不断地听到他们所说的事情，并注意注释背后的注释。

Why do I think they're saying this?

我认为他们为什么这么说？

What insight do they have that they're bringing to this conversation that might not be obvious?

他们在这次对话中带来了哪些可能并不明显的见解？

And I try to make an effort every week.

我每周都会努力。

I don't always do it, but I try to send my team just a quick rundown in Slack of, "Here are the most important conversations or the most interesting conversations I had this week.

我并不总是这样做，但我尝试在 Slack 中向我的团队发送一个简短的概要，“这是我本周进行的最重要的对话或最有趣的对话。

Here's what that person said verbatim."

这是那个人一字不差地说的话。”

Hilary Gridley: Again, I write a lot of notes so I've got it.

希拉里·格里德利：再说一遍，我写了很多笔记，所以我已经掌握了。

If you've got a transcriber, maybe that'll help you.

如果您有转录员，也许会对您有所帮助。

"And here's what I interpret that as.

“这就是我的解释。

Here's why I think they say that.

这就是我认为他们这么说的原因。

Here's where I think that's coming from and here's what I'm going to do differently as a result." And these aren't long.

我认为这就是从这里来的，这就是我将采取不同做法的结果。”而且这些时间并不长。

And sometimes if I don't have time, I'll just, in a team meeting, I'll literally just go through my notes from the week and sort of voiceover stuff and editorialize it as I go.

有时，如果我没有时间，我会在团队会议上，逐字逐句地浏览本周的笔记和配音内容，并边编辑边编辑。

And over time, I think my team has a pretty good sense of what people are saying and how to think about the thinking behind it and how this person thinks, how this person thinks and how I think.

随着时间的推移，我认为我的团队对人们在说什么以及如何思考其背后的想法以及这个人如何思考，这个人如何思考以及我如何思考有了很好的了解。

And I think when you get an entire organization working that way where everyone's working from the same models of what the CEO thinks matters, what level of risk tolerance the company has, things like that, then you can actually start to move much, much faster and communication becomes much, much, much less painful.

我认为，当你让整个组织以这种方式工作时，每个人都按照首席执行官认为重要的相同模型工作，公司的风险承受能力水平，诸如此类的事情，那么你实际上可以开始更快地采取行动，沟通变得更加轻松。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the tactic here is to help your teams kind of build a mental model of everyone in the company that matters so that it's...

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这里的策略是帮助你的团队为公司中每个重要的人建立一个心理模型，以便......

The way you put it almost is when they're emailing them or asking for something, they already know how they're going to respond.

你几乎可以这么说，当他们给他们发电子邮件或询问某些东西时，他们已经知道将如何回应。

Is they're an example you could share of something like this, of just something a person at Whoop of how they think?

他们是一个你可以分享的例子吗？比如 Whoop 的一个人的想法？

I don't know, maybe you could keep it anonymous just to make this a little reel of the kind of mental model you might want to build around someone.

我不知道，也许你可以保持匿名，只是为了让它成为你可能想要围绕某人建立的那种心理模型的小卷轴。

Hilary Gridley: So our CEO, Will, is somebody who obsesses over pixels in a way that is challenging to get things through design review, but I think results in a product that is a thousand times better than it would be if he were accepting of small excuses here and there for, "Oh, well this, we had to cut scope here.

希拉里·格里德利：所以我们的首席执行官威尔是一个对像素着迷的人，这种方式对通过设计审查具有挑战性，但我认为结果比他接受到处都是小借口的产品要好一千倍，“哦，好吧，我们必须在这里缩小范围。

We couldn't quite do what they wanted here." He sets a high bar and he holds it and he doesn't compromise.

我们在这里无法完全按照他们的意愿行事。”他设定了很高的标准，并且坚守这个标准，并且从不妥协。

And I think this can sometimes get misconstrued, and I think a lot of people might think that he just wants maximal scope on everything.

我认为这有时会被误解，而且我认为很多人可能认为他只是想在所有事情上都有最大的范围。

And I think that is a misunderstanding of what he cares about.

我认为这是对他关心的事情的误解。

Hilary Gridley: We often get feedback from him that's like, "This doesn't feel like the future and everything that we're building needs to feel like the future." A lot of people hear that and they're kind of like, "Oh gosh, we're never going to get this thing done on time.

希拉里·格里德利：我们经常从他那里得到这样的反馈：“这感觉不像未来，我们正在构建的一切都需要感觉像未来。”很多人听到这句话后都会想：“天啊，我们永远不可能按时完成这件事。

We can't make any sort of sacrifices to scope or anything like that." But when I hear that, what I hear is more that we have this AI coach in the product, we have all this amazing data in the product.

我们不能为范围或类似的事情做出任何形式的牺牲。”但当我听到这个消息时，我听到的更多的是我们的产品中有这个人工智能教练，我们的产品中有所有这些惊人的数据。

We're tracking every single one of your heartbeats and we're pulling at all this other data and we have every screen is a moment to show that to people in a way that feels like something that has never existed before.

我们正在追踪你的每一次心跳，我们正在提取所有其他数据，我们的每个屏幕都是一个时刻，以一种前所未有的方式向人们展示这一点。

Hilary Gridley: And there are small ways to do that, right?

希拉里·格里德利：有一些小方法可以做到这一点，对吗？

It's like how you pull in.

就像你拉进去的方式一样。

If you're explaining a concept like VO2 Max, which is a measure of your cardiovascular health, you can explain that to people with static content or you can explain that to people by bringing their data into the method of explanation that you're using.

如果您要解释诸如最大摄氧量（衡量心血管健康状况）之类的概念，您可以向具有静态内容的人解释，也可以通过将人们的数据带入您正在使用的解释方法中来向人们解释。

You can make it really conversational because you're using this AI coach.

你可以让它真正成为对话式的，因为你正在使用这个人工智能教练。

You can make it feel more like you're talking to a person and a person who by the way has all the data about you, which doesn't exist today.

你可以让它感觉更像是在与一个人交谈，而这个人拥有关于你的所有数据，而这些数据在今天并不存在。

Hilary Gridley: Your doctor doesn't have that, your coach doesn't have that.

希拉里·格里德利：你的医生没有，你的教练也没有。

And that's not like, "Oh gosh, we've got to blow up the scope on this thing and make it a hundred X as big." But it's finding these little touches to say, "Wow, that was really magical, that was really thoughtful and this feels like the future.

这并不是说，“天哪，我们必须把这个东西的瞄准镜放大一百倍。”但它发现这些小感动说：“哇，这真的很神奇，这真的很周到，这感觉就像未来。

This feels like I'm very conscious of the fact that this product knows so much about me and is able to sort out the signal from the noise on that in these really small and elegant ways." And so for something like that, I would get that feedback in design review or I'd hear that in a design review and maybe one of my PMs would be in that design review.

这感觉就像我非常意识到这个产品非常了解我，并且能够以这些非常小而优雅的方式从噪音中区分出信号。”因此，对于类似的事情，我会在设计评审中得到反馈，或者我会在设计评审中听到反馈，也许我的一位产品经理会参与该设计评审。

Hilary Gridley: And so I bring that to the team.

希拉里·格里德利：所以我把这一点带到了团队中。

And I hear of things like that in a few different design reviews.

我在一些不同的设计评论中听说过类似的事情。

So I bring those back to the team and I'm like, "I've noticed that recently we are consistently getting this type of feedback.

所以我把这些带回团队，我想，“我注意到最近我们不断收到这种类型的反馈。

Here's why I think it's really important to Will, because I think he's really focused on building the health company of the future.

这就是为什么我认为这对威尔来说非常重要，因为我认为他真正专注于建设未来的健康公司。

And I don't want you all to think that this just means we have to just throw AI at everything and we have to just throw maximum scope at everything.

我不希望大家认为这只是意味着我们必须在所有事情上投入人工智能，并且我们必须在所有事情上投入最大范围。

Hilary Gridley: I think the key is understanding on the matrix of cost and effort for impact, what are those high impact but low cost ways that we can just find and sprinkle through the experience and really try to make that magical?" So I'm connecting the dots for my team.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为关键是理解影响力的成本和努力矩阵，我们可以找到哪些高影响力但成本低的方法，并通过体验进行洒水，并真正尝试使其变得神奇？”所以我正在为我的团队连接点。

Right?

正确的？

I'm saying, "You weren't in all these meetings, but I saw it.

我是说，“你没有参加所有这些会议，但我看到了。

Here's what I heard.

这是我听到的。

Here's my interpretation of what I heard, and here's how I'm thinking about how this other person thinks about it.

这是我对我所听到的内容的解释，这是我对其他人的看法的看法。

And so as a result, here are some things that I think we can do across our product going forward."

因此，我认为我们可以在未来的产品中做一些事情。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Essentially these are principles, values, or tenets per person of what matters to them.

Lenny Rachitsky：本质上，这些是每个人对他们重要的事情的原则、价值观或信条。

Lenny Rachitsky: So for Nick it's, "This needs to feel like we're living in the future." It can't just be like another heartbeat dragging out.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以对于尼克来说，“这需要让人感觉我们生活在未来。”它不可能只是像另一次心跳拖延一样。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is so cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太酷了。

And there's so many trickle-down benefit to this.

这有很多好处。

One is people feel like they're aware of what's happening.

一是人们感觉他们知道正在发生的事情。

That's one of the most common, I think, piece of feedback people have with big companies.

我认为这是人们对大公司最常见的反馈之一。

Like, "I don't know what's happening." So there's so much visibility to all the secretive stuff happening in the meetings.

就像，“我不知道发生了什么事。”因此，会议中发生的所有秘密事情都有很多可见性。

"I don't know what people are deciding my fates and all these discussions." So I think just even knowing that you're sharing all this is so powerful.

“我不知道是什么人在决定我的命运以及所有这些讨论。”所以我认为即使知道你正在分享这一切也是如此强大。

Hilary Gridley: Well, and on that note, when I approach these conversations, I always try to think of them as, even if I don't agree with the feedback, if I don't agree with the decision, what is the insight that I'm missing?

希拉里·格里德利：嗯，在这一点上，当我进行这些对话时，我总是试图将它们视为，即使我不同意反馈，如果我不同意这个决定，我错过了什么洞察力？

How am I wrong about this?

这件事我怎么错了？

In ways like, what would be true for this other person to be right?

比如，如果这个人是对的，那么什么才是正确的呢？

And I'll go through that thought exercise and I might not get to the other side and agree with it.

我会进行这个思考练习，但我可能不会到达另一边并同意它。

I might still think I'm right or whatever.

我可能仍然认为我是对的或者其他什么。

But oftentimes it forcing myself to think that way forces me to think about how this other person thinks it.

但很多时候，它迫使我自己这样思考，迫使我去思考其他人的想法。

And if I do that enough, I will be like, "Oh, this makes sense.

如果我做得足够多，我会说，“哦，这是有道理的。

I think this makes sense if.

我认为这是有道理的。

I think this makes sense if, and oh, maybe this other thing is true."

我认为这是有道理的，如果，哦，也许另一件事是真的。”

Hilary Gridley: And I think when I hear the people, the people who are like, "I don't know what's going on with this company," I think they do the opposite.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为当我听到人们说“我不知道这家公司发生了什么”时，我认为他们做了相反的事情。

I think they look for reasons to disagree and they look for holes to poke in, "Well, this decision doesn't make any sense because I came up with something that might be wrong about it." And I think that's another thing, by the way, in terms of just sort of helping your team have the emotional maturity to exist and thrive in an organization is helping them think that way, helping them understand you have a point of view.

我认为他们会寻找不同意见的理由，并寻找漏洞，“好吧，这个决定没有任何意义，因为我想出了一些可能是错误的东西。”顺便说一句，我认为这是另一回事，就帮助你的团队在组织中存在和发展的情感成熟度而言，就是帮助他们以这种方式思考，帮助他们理解你的观点。

Hilary Gridley: Your point of view is important, but on some level, you do kind of have to have respect for these other points of view and have the humility to think that maybe they're onto something that you're not onto.

希拉里·格里德利：你的观点很重要，但在某种程度上，你确实必须尊重这些其他观点，并谦虚地认为他们可能有你不同意的观点。

And it's amazing how much you can learn into it without having to have all the facts just by doing that.

令人惊奇的是，仅仅通过这样做，你就可以学到很多东西，而不必掌握所有的事实。

If you're like, "Well, this person's behavior makes sense in a situation where X, Y, and Z is happening," oftentimes you'll find that X, Y and Z is happening.

如果你想，“嗯，这个人的行为在 X、Y 和 Z 发生的情况下是有意义的”，通常你会发现 X、Y 和 Z 正在发生。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm glad you went there.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴你去了那里。

I wanted to actually follow this thread, which is kind of a different direction, but I think a lot of people are always struggling with this as a leader.

我想真正遵循这个思路，这是一个不同的方向，但我认为作为领导者，很多人总是在这个问题上挣扎。

When your leader disagree, it does say something that you completely disagree with, but you still need to represent that as, "Here's the thing we're doing." But you don't want to be like, "Oh, just because Nick said so." Because you lose power as a leader.

当你的领导不同意时，他确实说了一些你完全不同意的话，但你仍然需要将其表示为“这就是我们正在做的事情”。但你不想说，“哦，只是因为尼克这么说。”因为你失去了作为领导者的权力。

Is there something you've learned about how to do that well when your leader tells you to do something you disagree with and you still need to get your team to do it.

当你的领导告诉你做一些你不同意的事情而你仍然需要让你的团队去做时，你是否学到了如何做好这件事？

Hilary Gridley: First, I do try to go through the what if I'm wrong exercise.

希拉里·格里德利：首先，我确实尝试进行“如果我错了怎么办”练习。

I think a lot of people just sort of expect that if you ask somebody a open-ended question like, "Why are we doing this?" You're going to get a straightforward answer.

我认为很多人只是期望如果你问某人一个开放式的问题，比如“我们为什么要这样做？”您将得到一个简单的答案。

And oftentimes the answer is not straightforward for various reasons.

通常，由于各种原因，答案并不简单。

Maybe there's confidentiality reasons, maybe there's just somebody is acting on a hunch, but that hunch is informed by years or decades of reps of developing judgment, and they're probably really onto something.

也许有保密的原因，也许只是有人凭直觉行事，但这种预感是由代表数年或数十年发展判断力得出的，而且他们可能真的在做某事。

And it's not just this kind of arbitrary gut feeling.

这不仅仅是这种任意的直觉。

But whatever it is, I really try to get to the bottom of, let me really make sure that I have done my best to understand this person's point of view.

但不管是什么，我真的想弄清楚，让我真正确保我已经尽了最大努力去理解这个人的观点。

Hilary Gridley: And I have some sort of tools for doing that, which I can also talk about.

希拉里·格里德利：我有一些可以做到这一点的工具，我也可以谈谈。

But if I've done that, and I still disagree, I'm relatively candid about that, but candid in a way where it's still respectful.

但如果我这样做了，但我仍然不同意，我对此会相对坦诚，但坦诚的方式仍然是尊重的。

I think what you want to avoid is a situation where as a manager you're like, "Ah, I have no control.

我认为你想要避免的情况是，作为一名经理，你会说：“啊，我无法控制。

This sucks.

这太糟糕了。

This decision is so stupid, but that's a job, so we have to do it." Obviously that's not going to set your team up for success or make anybody happy about it, but you do hear that, you do see that happening.

这个决定太愚蠢了，但这是一份工作，所以我们必须这样做。”显然，这不会让你的团队取得成功，也不会让任何人感到高兴，但你确实听到了，你确实看到了这种情况的发生。

And so I think what I try to do in those situations is separate out my opinion from it, from the, " Well, what is the insight that makes it make sense to this person" and explain their rationale.

因此，我认为在这些情况下我尝试做的就是将我的观点与“嗯，对这个人来说有意义的洞察力是什么”分开，并解释他们的理由。

Hilary Gridley: Even if I'm comfortable saying, "I don't necessarily think this isn't how I would do it," or "I don't even really agree with how they're thinking about it, but from their point of view, from their perspective, their professional experience, whatever it is, I could see how this makes sense.

希拉里·格里德利：即使我很舒服地说，“我不一定认为这不是我会这样做的”，或者“我什至不太同意他们的想法，但从他们的角度来看，从他们的角度，从他们的专业经验，无论是什么，我可以看到这是有道理的。

And they might be right.

他们可能是对的。

I don't think they're right, but they might be.

我不认为他们是对的，但他们可能是对的。

Let's find out.

让我们来看看吧。

We're not going to find out if we are all squabbling about whether this is a good idea the whole time.

我们不会知道我们是否一直在争论这是否是一个好主意。

The only way we're going to find out is if we give it the best shot that we have and try to do it.

我们要找出答案的唯一方法就是我们是否尽我们最大的努力并尝试去做。

And if we're wrong, that happens sometimes and we try again."

如果我们错了，这种情况有时会发生，我们会再试一次。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I like that this comes back to your mental model orientation of, "Here's their mental model, here's what their experience has been like, here's how they see the world, the trends, and then this is why they think the way they think." And so instead of encouraging your team or yourself even to be like, "No, no, you're wrong here." It's more, "Okay, here's their data set, let's try this, and this will inform that data set and maybe change their mind."

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这又回到了你的心智模型取向，“这是他们的心智模型，这是他们的经历，这是他们如何看待世界、趋势，然后这就是他们以自己的方式思考的原因。”因此，不要鼓励你的团队或你自己，甚至说：“不，不，你错了。”更多的是，“好吧，这是他们的数据集，让我们尝试一下，这将为该数据集提供信息，也许会改变他们的想法。”

Hilary Gridley: Yeah.

希拉里·格里德利：是的。

Because I think in product, I like to joke, there's no right answers.

因为我认为在产品中，我喜欢开玩笑，没有正确的答案。

Right?

正确的？

There's only wrong answers, and you're just trying to execute well on the least wrong answer that's available to you.

只有错误的答案，而你只是试图在你可用的错误最少的答案上很好地执行。

And so I think it is the sort of reasonable people can disagree about this stuff at all of this is what I think, and this is how I would approach it.

所以我认为这是一种理性的人可以不同意这些东西的所有这就是我的想法，这就是我处理它的方式。

I think this is what they think and I think this is why they would approach it this way.

我认为这就是他们的想法，我认为这就是他们这样做的原因。

Hilary Gridley: And again, the only chance we have of succeeding is not being torn apart on that.

希拉里·格里德利：再说一遍，我们成功的唯一机会就是不被撕裂。

And so at the end of the day, if it's not a obviously terrible answer, and sometimes even if it isn't obviously terrible answer, you're still more likely to succeed if you just sort of reorient yourself around a world where it's not a terrible answer and then just try to will that into existence.

因此，归根结底，如果这不是一个明显糟糕的答案，有时即使它不是明显糟糕的答案，如果你在一个不是可怕答案的世界中重新定位自己，然后尝试将其实现，你仍然更有可能成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: You said that you have some tools to help you understand someone's point of view.

Lenny Rachitsky：你说你有一些工具可以帮助你理解某人的观点。

I can't help but ask more about that.

我忍不住要问更多。

Hilary Gridley: I talk about what I like to call the magic questions, but the thing about magic questions is they're not actually questions, they're statements and they end with, "Do you agree?" Or "Is that right?" And so I have found this, the most helpful way for kind of trying to understand a person's mental model is to just put facts in front of them and see what they say no to and what they say yes to.

希拉里·格里德利（Hilary Gridley）：我谈论的是我喜欢称之为“神奇问题”的东西，但神奇问题的问题在于它们实际上并不是问题，它们是陈述，并且以“你同意吗？”结尾。或者“是吗？”所以我发现，想要理解一个人的思维模式，最有帮助的方法就是把事实摆在他们面前，看看他们对什么说“不”，对什么说“是”。

And then if you can get them to explain, great.

如果你能让他们解释，那就太好了。

And if they're good communicators, they often can, but if they're not, you don't have to let that stop you view.

如果他们善于沟通，他们通常可以，但如果他们不是，你也不必因此而阻止你的观看。

And so I mean, I'll do this even just as an example in a non-leadership context with if I'm working with legal teams or compliance teams or things like that, they're often working from a literal set of rules.

所以我的意思是，即使只是作为非领导环境中的一个例子，如果我与法律团队或合规团队或类似的人合作，他们通常会按照一套字面规则进行工作。

Right?

正确的？

Hilary Gridley: There are laws, there are regulations, and you are trying to understand if we were to take this path, would that be okay?

希拉里·格里德利：有法律，有规定，你想了解如果我们走这条路，可以吗？

Would that not be okay?

这样不好吗？

And sometimes that's not straightforward.

有时这并不简单。

Sometimes there's regulatory areas that are up to interpretation.

有时有些监管领域需要解释。

And so when I first started working in a regulated space, I would find this kind of frustrating and confusing because I would say, "Can you just give me the rule so I can understand what's right and what's left of it?" And they'd be like, "Oh, well, it depends.

因此，当我第一次开始在受监管的空间中工作时，我会发现这种令人沮丧和困惑的情况，因为我会说，“你能给我规则，这样我就能明白什么是对的，什么是剩下的吗？”他们会说，“哦，好吧，这要看情况。

It depends, it depends." And so I learned that if I kind of flip that and approached that, "Well, what if we did X, Y, and Z?

这要看情况，这要看情况。”所以我了解到，如果我翻转它并接近它，“那么，如果我们做 X、Y 和 Z 呢？

Hilary Gridley: What if this is what it looked like?

希拉里·格里德利：如果事情就是这样呢？

What if this is what the copy said?

如果这就是文案所说的怎么办？

Would that be okay?" No, yes.

这样可以吗？”不，是的。

If no, why?

如果没有，为什么？

If yes, why?

如果是，为什么？

And so I'm sort of teasing out the mental model rather than asking them to explain it to me.

所以我有点梳理出心理模型，而不是要求他们向我解释。

And this is what I tell my team all the time to do this to me.

这就是我一直告诉我的团队对我这样做的事情。

When they come to me and they say, "Well, what do you think I should do?" Or "What could I have done differently?" I'll say, "Rephrase that as 'Tell me what you think you could have done differently.' And then ask me if I agree." And when I do this, I think it has a few benefits.

当他们来找我时，他们说：“那么，你认为我应该做什么？”或者“我可以采取什么不同的做法？”我会说，“将其改写为‘告诉我你认为你可以采取哪些不同的做法。’”然后问我是否同意。”当我这样做时，我认为它有一些好处。

One, it helps them kind of calibrate their judgment over time.

第一，它可以帮助他们随着时间的推移调整自己的判断。

Hilary Gridley: So they're actually forcing themselves to make this assertion.

希拉里·格里德利：所以他们实际上是在强迫自己做出这样的断言。

And then they're kind of calibrating how close that was to how I would think about it, which will get you much faster, much further than just asking open-ended questions and getting the answer.

然后他们会校准这与我的想法有多接近，这会让你更快、更远，而不仅仅是提出开放式问题并得到答案。

And then the second part of it is they don't become reliant on me for answering these questions.

第二部分是他们不再依赖我回答这些问题。

I think that's kind of a trap that a lot of managers fall into is people come to you with questions, you want to help them, you answer the question, and then you find that they come to you with all their questions and you're kind of like, "Yeah, you got to solve some of these on your own." So again, I think the magic questions to me, is that right?

我认为这是很多经理都会陷入的一个陷阱，人们带着问题来找你，你想帮助他们，你回答问题，然后你发现他们带着所有的问题来找你，你会说，“是的，你必须自己解决其中一些问题。”再说一次，我觉得这个神奇的问题对我来说是这样吗？

Do you agree?

你同意？

And anytime you find yourself tempted to ask an open-ended question to somebody whose brain you're trying to understand, stop yourself and say, "Let me just say that.

每当你发现自己想要向某个你想了解其大脑的人问一个开放式问题时，请停下来说：“让我这么说吧。

Let me say as a statement what I think," and then try to calibrate based on their reaction.

让我说出我的想法，”然后尝试根据他们的反应进行校准。

And I think that's the fastest way to understand how another person thinks.

我认为这是了解他人想法的最快方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: It makes me think about a lot of people, it could come across as it's a weird manipulative way of asking someone stuff, but it turns out that we're not good at really knowing what we think or know a lot of times.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想到了很多人，这可能会让人觉得这是一种奇怪的、操纵性的询问别人问题的方式，但事实证明，我们很多时候并不擅长真正了解自己的想法或知道什么。

And you need someone almost to interview you in a really effective way to get out all this knowledge.

你需要有人以一种真正有效的方式采访你，以获取所有这些知识。

And this is just a really simple way of getting that idea.

这只是实现这个想法的一个非常简单的方法。

Hilary Gridley: It's funny because when I talk about this, I get that reaction a lot where people are like, "Well, doesn't it feel coercive?" And I'm like, "Well, you got to go in pure of heart." You've got to go in open to being wrong and even expected to be wrong.

希拉里·格里德利：这很有趣，因为当我谈论这个问题时，我经常得到这样的反应，人们会说，“嗯，这不感觉很强制吗？”我说：“好吧，你必须怀着纯粹的心去。”你必须坦然接受错误，甚至预期会犯错误。

And you have to make that clear to them.

你必须向他们明确这一点。

Right?

正确的？

If you're coming in and you're like, "Here's what I think.

如果你进来时你会说：“这就是我的想法。

You agree?

你同意吗？

You agree?" Of course you're not getting the answer you want.

你同意吗？”当然，你不会得到你想要的答案。

Or you might get the answer you want, I might get a yes.

或者你可能会得到你想要的答案，我可能会得到肯定的答案。

If your goal is to get to yes, that's not what I'm talking about.

如果你的目标是“是”，那不是我要说的。

Hilary Gridley: If your goal is to understand and you are coming from a, "Help me understand how I'm wrong, help me understand what I'm getting wrong here" and approach it with that sort of curiosity and humility and make sure that you're caring yourself and presenting yourself to this person in a way that shows that, that you're not coming in hostile or forceful or something.

希拉里·格里德利：如果你的目标是理解，并且你来自“帮助我理解我是如何错的，帮助我理解我在这里做错了什么”，并以那种好奇心和谦逊的态度来对待它，并确保你关心自己，并以一种表明你没有敌意或强行的方式向这个人展示自己。

Yeah.

是的。

Because there are absolutely circumstances where you're doing that and you're going to get bad intel because you're making the person uncomfortable, so they're going to lie to you.

因为在某些情况下，你这样做绝对会得到不好的情报，因为你让对方感到不舒服，所以他们会对你撒谎。

But that's I think, a whole set of interpersonal skill that we probably don't have time to talk about today.

但我认为，这就是一整套我们今天可能没有时间讨论的人际交往能力。

Lenny Rachitsky: I wanted to come back to, you said this interesting insight about your CO that he wanted to build something that felt like the future.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想回想一下，你说过关于你的 CO 的有趣见解，他想构建一些感觉像未来的东西。

I just wanted to share, there's a story that has always stuck with me at Airbnb.

我只是想分享一下，在 Airbnb 有一个故事一直让我难以忘怀。

There was a big launch coming up and there was a designer sitting late in the office trying to update the website to include this new product.

即将有一场大型发布会，一位设计师坐在办公室很晚，试图更新网站以包含这款新产品。

It was a launch of Airbnb Neighborhoods, I don't know, 10 years ago.

我不知道，这是 10 年前 Airbnb Neighborhoods 推出的。

And she was just like, "Hey, Joe." And this is Joe Gebbia was walking around the office.

她只是说，“嘿，乔。”这是乔·杰比亚在办公室里走来走去。

And she's like, "Hey Joe, what do you want the website to be?

她说：“嘿乔，你想要这个网站是什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: What do you want it to look like?

Lenny Rachitsky：你希望它是什么样子？

What should we try to..." And it was going to launch in two days.

我们应该尝试什么......”它将在两天内启动。

He's like, "Build something the internet has never seen before." And now this makes...

他说，“打造互联网上前所未见的东西。”而现在这使得...

It's interesting because when I always think about that story and tell that story, it's like, this is a crazy ask.

这很有趣，因为当我总是思考那个故事并讲述那个故事时，就像，这是一个疯狂的问题。

And now as you share an approach for how to handle something like that, it really changes my perspective to like, "Okay, what's Joe's worldview?

现在，当你分享一种处理此类问题的方法时，它确实改变了我的观点，“好吧，乔的世界观是什么？

Why is that the way he saw the world and why we needed to build a site like that,?" Which I could start thinking about, but that's a really interesting way to just handle things that sound absurd and out of nowhere.

为什么他会以这种方式看待世界，为什么我们需要建立一个这样的网站？”我可以开始思考这一点，但这是一种非常有趣的方式来处理听起来荒谬和突然出现的事情。

Hilary Gridley: I agree so much.

希拉里·格里德利：我非常同意。

I proud former English major, and so I'm a huge proponent of reading fiction and reading in general.

我为以前的英语专业感到自豪，所以我非常支持阅读小说和一般阅读。

And I feel like that's where so much of this comes from for me.

我觉得这就是我的大部分收获的来源。

It is just a curiosity for in what world does this make sense for this person?

只是好奇这对这个人来说在哪个世界有意义？

And it's so easy to look at another person's behaviors, another person's actions and what they say and just be like, "That doesn't make any sense." And I find that, I don't know, your relationships become so much richer, even just in a work context, when you approach it with that, "What is the world of this person where the thing that they're saying makes sense?"

人们很容易看到另一个人的行为、行动以及他们所说的话，然后就会说：“这没有任何意义。”我发现，我不知道，你的人际关系会变得更加丰富，即使只是在工作环境中，当你用“这个人的世界是什么样的，他们所说的事情有意义？”来处理它时，即使只是在工作环境中也是如此。

Hilary Gridley: And I feel like in my life, honestly, a lot of my frustration has come from being frustrated with other people.

希拉里·格里德利：老实说，我觉得在我的生活中，我的很多挫败感都来自对其他人的挫败感。

And so this is something that I've had to learn over time.

所以这是我随着时间的推移必须学习的东西。

Because when I come home from work and I'm just like, "Oh, this person said this and it didn't make any sense, and this person's totally out to lunch and leadership doesn't know what's going on." All I was doing was making myself miserable.

因为当我下班回家时，我就想，“哦，这个人说了这些，但没有任何意义，而且这个人完全出去吃午饭了，领导层不知道发生了什么。”我所做的一切只是让自己变得痛苦。

Hilary Gridley: And actually worse than that, I was making myself miserable and I was making myself pretty useless to the company.

希拉里·格里德利：实际上比这更糟糕的是，我让自己变得痛苦，让自己对公司变得毫无用处。

And so I would get frustrated because I was like, " No, nobody appreciates my perfect, unique, beautiful insight and all these other people have no unique, beautiful, perfect, concise, just wrong opinions." And so I feel like that's been a big area of growth for me, honestly, is learning to approach people that way.

所以我会感到沮丧，因为我想，“不，没有人欣赏我完美、独特、美丽的洞察力，而所有其他人都没有独特、美丽、完美、简洁，只是错误的观点。”所以说实话，我觉得这对我来说是一个很大的成长领域，就是学习以这种方式与人相处。

It's not just like, "Oh, this is a nice thing to do," but I think it genuinely makes me a happier person.

这不仅仅是“哦，这是一件好事”，但我认为这确实让我成为一个更快乐的人。

And yeah, I think a lot of it comes from reading fiction.

是的，我认为很多都是来自阅读小说。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that we're just unpacking the onion of the power of this very specific habit of just helping you learn the mental model of the people around you.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢我们只是解开这个非常特殊的习惯的力量，帮助你了解周围人的心理模型。

And-

还有——

Hilary Gridley: I feel like this is just making me sound like a crazy force.

希拉里·格里德利：我觉得这让我听起来像一股疯狂的力量。

Lenny Rachitsky: No, there's so much power to this.

Lenny Rachitsky：不，这有很大的力量。

As you talk, I'm like, "Wow, there's so much value here." Because not only is it, you talk about how this is the source of a lot of burnout for a lot of people where they're just so frustrated, the CEO or the chief product officer, designers just like, "I hate this." Why are they just asking all these ridiculous things, keeping the bar way too high?

当你说话时，我想，“哇，这里有这么多的价值。”因为不仅如此，你还谈到这对很多人来说是很多倦怠的根源，他们非常沮丧，首席执行官或首席产品官、设计师都会说，“我讨厌这个。”为什么他们只是问所有这些荒谬的事情，把标准定得太高？

It's just nothing's ever good enough."

一切都还不够好。”

Lenny Rachitsky: But not only does it help you feel better about their asks, because you can understand where they're coming from, it also helps you be more effective and helping them change their mind potentially and see a different perspective because now you see the data that informs their perspective and you could help adjust that or kind of poke at it like, "Hey, are you sure this is true?

Lenny Rachitsky：但这不仅可以帮助你更好地了解他们的要求，因为你可以了解他们的想法，还可以帮助你提高效率，帮助他们潜在地改变想法并看到不同的观点，因为现在你看到了影响他们观点的数据，你可以帮助调整这一点，或者像这样戳戳它，“嘿，你确定这是真的吗？

Are you sure I don't know, they're a competitor and this is how they see it.

你确定我不知道吗，他们是竞争对手，这就是他们的看法。

Maybe it's not.

也许不是。

Let's look into that a little deeper."

让我们更深入地研究一下。”

Hilary Gridley: Yeah, it's really interesting.

希拉里·格里德利：是的，这真的很有趣。

At my last company when I started reporting to the CEO, they found various coaches for me to work with, and one of them was the former chief product officer at Coinbase who's gone to found Bridge, which is just that apart by Stripe for a ton of money.

在我上一家公司，当我开始向首席执行官汇报时，他们为我找了很多教练，其中一位是 Coinbase 的前首席产品官，他创立了 Bridge，与 Stripe 相差很多钱。

One thing that he said to me that really stuck with me is when you're reporting to the CEO and as a chief product officer, the big mistake that people make is they think that the game is all about getting what is inside their head and influencing the CEO, influencing the people around them to make it so, and if you go into the role trying to do that, you're going to fail because actually what your job is to do is to understand what the CEO's vision is and what they care about, again, sort of how they think about things and figure out how to operationalize that in a way that results in the best possible manifestation of it in the form of product.

他对我说的让我印象深刻的一件事是，当你向首席执行官和首席产品官汇报时，人们犯的一个大错误是，他们认为游戏就是了解他们的头脑并影响首席执行官，影响他们周围的人，让他们做到这一点，如果你试图做到这一点，你就会失败，因为实际上你的工作要做的是了解首席执行官的愿景是什么以及他们关心什么，同样，他们如何看待事物和数字找出如何以一种能够以产品形式最好地体现它的方式来实施它。

Hilary Gridley: And that was just such a radically different way from what I ever thought my job was.

希拉里·格里德利：这与我想象的工作方式截然不同。

Again, to go back to sort of the fiction example, you kind of come up thinking you're the protagonist.

再次回到小说的例子，你会认为自己是主角。

And you can be the protagonist in your life.

而你也可以成为你生活中的主角。

You can be the protagonist in the story of your family, but in the story of your work of a company, you are probably not the protagonist.

你可以成为你家庭的故事的主角，但在你工作的公司的故事中，你很可能不是主角。

And as much as it can feel kind of weird to say that I genuinely think some of the best advice I've got in my life in terms of things that have just not only transformed how I see the world and how I act in it, but just my own sense of happiness is you're not special.

尽管说我真的认为我一生中得到的一些最好的建议不仅改变了我看待世界的方式和我在世界上的行为方式，但我自己的幸福感是你并不特别，这感觉有点奇怪。

And I used to spend so much time and energy just being like, "Oh, people don't see it my way and I have to convince them.

我曾经花费很多时间和精力只是想，“哦，人们不以我的方式看待这件事，我必须说服他们。

Hilary Gridley: And when you're in an organization, it's an ecosystem.

希拉里·格里德利：当你在一个组织中时，它就是一个生态系统。

Right?

正确的？

It's an organization full of people who are all trying to work together to get a thing done.

这是一个充满了努力共同完成任务的人员的组织。

And if every single one of those people is operating from their own protagonist viewpoint of "This is how I actually see the world, this is what I think we're here to do and I need to convince everyone around me at all times," it becomes extremely inefficient.

如果这些人中的每一个人都从自己的主角视角出发，“这就是我实际上看待世界的方式，这就是我认为我们来这里要做的事情，我需要始终说服我周围的每个人”，那么它就会变得极其低效。

It becomes extremely painful, because everyone's just fighting all the time.

这变得非常痛苦，因为每个人都一直在战斗。

And so in some ways it feels like you're kind of, it sounds almost defeatist.

所以在某些方面，你感觉有点，听起来几乎是失败主义者。

Hilary Gridley: I'm always worried about the sounding.

希拉里·格里德利：我总是担心声音。

I'm just like, "Yeah, just do whatever the boss says." And that's not how I feel at all.

我就说：“好吧，就按老板说的做。”我根本不是这样的感觉。

I think it's incredibly important to bring your skills and your talents and your perspective to the job you have and really your taste and your craft and all of these things.

我认为将你的技能、你的才能、你的观点以及你的品味、你的手艺以及所有这些东西运用到你的工作中是非常重要的。

But I do think this idea of understanding how to build a shared mental model of everyone together that definitionally cannot be defined by your own narrow perspective, actually just makes work a lot better for everybody.

但我确实认为这种理解如何建立每个人共同的心理模型的想法实际上不能用你自己狭隘的视角来定义，实际上只会让每个人的工作变得更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: So then a lot of people, like you said, I love that you went there, is just like if you're, because it could sound like, okay, your job is just to execute what the CO tells you.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以很多人，就像你说的，我喜欢你去那里，就像你去那里一样，因为这听起来像是，好吧，你的工作只是执行 CO 告诉你的事情。

There's no value to your insights and perspectives, and you're just get out of the way.

你的见解和观点没有任何价值，你只能走开。

You're just get everyone to do the thing the CO wants.

你只需让每个人都做 CO 想要的事情。

Where do you...

你在哪里...

I guess, in your experience or just advice on where's the fulfillment for you then as a CPO or example or a director of product where it's not that fun just to be there executing a CO's vision and not have any input?

我想，根据您的经验或只是建议，作为首席产品官或示例或产品总监，您的成就感在哪里，仅仅在那里执行 CO 的愿景而不接受任何意见并不是那么有趣？

Hilary Gridley: Well, and I think there's so many decisions all the way down and there's so many micro places where you can zig where others would've zagged.

希拉里·格里德利：嗯，我认为一路下来有很多决定，而且有很多微观的地方，你可以在其他人可能会走的地方走来走去。

And I think I personally, a lot of where my fulfillment comes from is from feeling like if somebody else were in this job, it would be done differently.

我认为就我个人而言，我的成就感很大程度上来自于感觉如果其他人从事这份工作，它会以不同的方式完成。

And something about the product is different because I was the one who worked on it because I was in the job.

该产品有些不同，因为我是开发该产品的人，因为我在这份工作中。

And that comes from my unique perspective, my unique point of view, the experiences I've had in the past, my various influences.

这来自于我独特的视角，我独特的观点，我过去的经历，我的各种影响。

And I think it's trying to figure out the right level for it so that you're not pushing against an immovable force.

我认为它正在试图找出合适的水平，这样你就不会对抗不可移动的力量。

Hilary Gridley: It's almost like if you're playing Jenga and you're sort of trying to feel around to find, okay, well, where are the pieces that can move?

希拉里·格里德利（Hilary Gridley）：这几乎就像你在玩叠叠乐（Jenga）时，你试图四处寻找，好吧，好吧，可以移动的棋子在哪里？

And when you know how somebody else thinks A, you can find that there are immovable forces.

而当你知道别人怎么想A时，你就会发现有不可动摇的力量。

Those are not the battles worth fighting.

这些不是值得打的仗。

But there are also areas where maybe they don't know as much, and there's also areas where maybe they're actually kind of scared because they don't know as much.

但也有一些领域他们可能不知道那么多，也有一些领域他们可能实际上有点害怕，因为他们不知道那么多。

And maybe that's an area where you have an interesting point of view.

也许在这个领域你有有趣的观点。

And so you can step into that role and be tremendously valuable and being tremendously influential.

这样你就可以进入这个角色，并变得非常有价值并具有巨大的影响力。

Hilary Gridley: But you can only do that if you have a good frame for kind of what the model is and where are the things where it's like, okay, we are operating on a person's insight here that is itself extremely unique and extremely valuable, and it is the reason this company even exists in the first place.

希拉里·格里德利：但只有当你对模型是什么以及模型在哪里有一个很好的框架时，你才能做到这一点，好吧，我们在这里根据一个人的洞察力进行操作，这种洞察力本身非常独特且非常有价值，这也是这家公司存在的原因。

But that, I mean, there's millions of decisions have to get made, you know what I mean?

但是，我的意思是，必须做出数百万个决定，你知道我的意思吗？

And there's millions of different places that you can put yourself.

您可以将自己置于数百万个不同的位置。

And so I think it's just kind of constantly feeling out for where are the places that I'm really spiky?

所以我认为这只是不断地摸索我真正尖刻的地方在哪里？

Where are the things that I think I do really well?

我认为自己做得很好的事情在哪里？

Where are the gaps?

差距在哪里？

And again, you can only find those if you're engaging really good faith and engaging earnestly and really understanding how other people think.

再说一遍，只有当你真正真诚地参与、认真参与并真正理解其他人的想法时，你才能找到这些。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's two really interesting thoughts that I have as you're talking that I think will even further crystallize what you're saying.

Lenny Rachitsky：当你说话时，我有两个非常有趣的想法，我认为这将进一步明确你所说的内容。

One is that you're just saying, this is the way the world works.

一是你只是说，这就是世界运转的方式。

It makes me think about Jeffrey Pfeffer, he was a guest on this podcast.

这让我想起杰弗里·普费弗，他是这个播客的嘉宾。

He teaches this class at Stanford Business School about how to gain power in the world.

他在斯坦福商学院教授这门课程，内容是如何在世界上获得权力。

It's like the rules of power.

这就像权力的规则。

And he talks about, and it's all these ways to influence and win and achieve and gain status and all these things.

他谈到，这就是所有这些影响、获胜、实现和获得地位以及所有这些事情的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: And he's like, this part doesn't sound fun and great, but I talk about here's the way the world works and is not the way you wish it would be.

Lenny Rachitsky：他说，这部分听起来并不有趣，也不伟大，但我想说的是，这就是世界运转的方式，而不是你希望的方式。

And what you're describing is the way a company works is the CO in charge and your job is to, they're the boss.

你所描述的是公司的运作方式是 CO 负责，而你的工作是，他们是老板。

And the sooner you understand their vision trumps your vision, the easier everything gets.

你越早了解他们的愿景胜过你的愿景，一切就会变得越容易。

You're not there to tell the CO, "Here's what we should be building." Right?

你不能在那里告诉 CO，“这就是我们应该建造的东西。”正确的？

Their job is to own the vision of the business and the company.

他们的工作是拥有企业和公司的愿景。

Hilary Gridley: Yeah, I think that's true.

希拉里·格里德利：是的，我认为这是真的。

And if you disagree with it, you probably shouldn't be working at that company.

如果你不同意，你可能就不应该在那家公司工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

The other piece is, it's just the vision.

另一部分是，这只是愿景。

Here's the vision of the future of where we're heading.

这是我们未来发展方向的愿景。

If we win, here's what will be true and the world will look like.

如果我们赢了，事情就会变成这样，世界就会变成这样。

But there's so much more that you need to figure out that is to achieve that vision.

但为了实现这一愿景，您还需要弄清楚更多事情。

And that's basically the role of the CPO and director of products, all those sorts of folks-

这基本上就是首席产品官和产品总监的角色，所有这些人——

Hilary Gridley: And of everyone at that level.

希拉里·格里德利：以及那个级别的每个人。

Hilary Gridley: And I think how you said it there is so right on, because it is like, the vision is in many ways, I mean, in some ways it's execution base, but in many ways it's a vision of what the world is going to look like in five years, in 10 years.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为你所说的非常正确，因为它就像，愿景在很多方面，我的意思是，在某些方面它是执行基础，但在很多方面它是对五年后、十年后世界将是什么样子的愿景。

And so in some ways, I would say your job is, if you can understand that and you can understand here's what this person thinks the world is going to look like, assuming all that is true, what are the things that I can do to maximize the chances of that and becoming the actual future?

因此，在某些方面，我想说你的工作是，如果你能理解这一点，并且你能理解这个人认为世界将会是什么样子，假设所有这些都是真的，我可以做哪些事情来最大限度地提高实现这一目标的机会并成为真正的未来？

Hilary Gridley: And then also, what does that mean for a product?

希拉里·格里德利：那么，这对产品意味着什么？

What does that mean for if it has to be true?

如果它必须是真的，那意味着什么？

That take Whoop, for example, if there's a vision of the future where you have all of your health data in one place and we're able to detect health issues before you even know you have them and we're able to do really hyper-personalized coaching to help you understand how your behaviors today are impacting how healthy you're going to be in decades, what does that mean for what Whoop needs to be today and what does that mean for how it needs to evolve in the next couple of years in order to both make that a reality but also win in that world.

以 Whoop 为例，如果您对未来的愿景是，您将所有健康数据集中在一个地方，我们能够在您知道自己有健康问题之前就检测到这些问题，并且我们能够进行真正的超个性化辅导，帮助您了解您今天的行为如何影响您几十年后的健康状况，这对于 Whoop 今天需要实现的目标意味着什么，这对于它在未来几年需要如何发展才能实现这一目标意味着什么一个现实，但也赢在那个世界。

And I do think that's exactly where the people in the right.

我确实认为这正是右翼人士的立场。

Hilary Gridley: And I do think that's exactly where the people in the rank and file can be tremendously influential.

希拉里·格里德利：我确实认为这正是普通人员可以产生巨大影响力的地方。

It's that level of, "I'm going to fight with you about how the world's going to work in five years," where I think you're just fighting a losing battle.

这种程度的“我要和你一起讨论五年后世界将如何运转”，我认为你只是在打一场必败之仗。

Lenny Rachitsky: And if you don't like the vision, you could leave, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：如果你不喜欢这个愿景，你可以离开，对吧？

It's like, or try to change it.

就像，或者尝试改变它。

Those are two options.

这是两个选择。

Hilary Gridley: And I think, to your point about pushing back, because you asked about this.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为，就你所说的反击而言，因为你问过这个问题。

Again, I never want it to sound like I'm just defeatist, "just accept it." I'm a very opinionated person.

再说一遍，我不想让别人觉得我只是一个失败主义者，“接受它吧”。我是一个很有主见的人。

Hilary Gridley: I go to the mat for things that I think are true, and so, I teach my team, "You have to be really good at forming arguments, and that can show up in different ways."

希拉里·格里德利（Hilary Gridley）：我会去争取我认为正确的事情，因此，我教导我的团队，“你必须非常善于形成论点，这可以通过不同的方式表现出来。”

Hilary Gridley: Some people are really good at doing that with data.

希拉里·格里德利：有些人真的很擅长用数据来做这件事。

Some people are really good at doing that with the qual and the quant, and moving it together.

有些人真的很擅长将定性和定量结合起来，并将其结合在一起。

But you have to be able to advocate for what you think is true in the most compelling way possible.

但你必须能够以最令人信服的方式倡导你认为正确的事情。

And you have an obligation to do it.

而且你有义务这样做。

Hilary Gridley: And if you have done it, and you've done it well, and it didn't work, that's when it's time to say, "Well, maybe there's something here that I wasn't seeing previously." And that's where I think it's time to have some humility around it.

希拉里·格里德利：如果你已经做到了，而且做得很好，但没有成功，那就是时候说，“好吧，也许这里有一些我以前没有看到的东西。”这就是我认为是时候保持谦逊的时候了。

Hilary Gridley: But it's a journey.

希拉里·格里德利：但这是一段旅程。

You don't start from, "Well, I got nothing to say here." So I think knowing where you are on that journey is important, too.

你不会从“好吧，我在这里没什么可说的”开始。所以我认为了解自己在这段旅程中的位置也很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: This reminds me, there's a PM leader at Airbnb, who ended up leading a new initiative, and they ended up doing a bunch of stupid stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起，Airbnb 有一位 PM 领导者，他最终领导了一项新计划，但他们最终做了一堆愚蠢的事情。

And he's like, "I'm realizing that it's me that needs to be pushing back on stuff, now that I'm in charge of this product team.

他说，“我意识到现在我负责这个产品团队，我需要抵制一些事情。

I'm the person that needs to convince the CEO this is a bad idea." And I am just realizing, that after doing a bunch of stuff, that it was stupid.

我需要说服首席执行官这是一个坏主意。”我刚刚意识到，在做了一堆事情之后，我发现这是愚蠢的。

Hilary Gridley: You will see that idea is that you do have an obligation to try to convince them that it's a bad idea.

希拉里·格里德利：你会发现这个想法是你确实有义务试图说服他们这是一个坏主意。

And you're going to be right sometimes, and you're not going to be right every time.

有时你会是对的，但你不会每次都是对的。

Hilary Gridley: I think that that's why it's so hard to talk about these things in absolutes, because sometimes you're right, and sometimes you're not right.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为这就是为什么很难绝对地谈论这些事情，因为有时你是对的，有时你是错的。

And it is important to get really good at knowing the difference, and knowing where you go from there.

真正善于了解其中的差异并了解接下来的发展方向非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Attio, the AI native CRM.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由人工智能原生 CRM Attio 为您带来。

Attio is built to scale with your business from day one.

Attio 从第一天起就根据您的业务进行扩展。

Lenny Rachitsky: Connect your e-mail and calendar, and Attio instantly builds a CRM that matches your business model, with all of your company's contacts and interactions, enriched with actionable insights.

Lenny Rachitsky：连接您的电子邮件和日历，Attio 会立即构建一个与您的业务模型相匹配的 CRM，其中包含您公司的所有联系人和交互，并包含可操作的见解。

Lenny Rachitsky: Sync in your product's usage, billing info, or any other data sources and Attio's flexible data model will handle it all, without any rigid templates or workarounds.

Lenny Rachitsky：同步产品的使用情况、账单信息或任何其他数据源，Attio 灵活的数据模型将处理这一切，无需任何严格的模板或解决方法。

With Attio, AI isn't just a feature, it's the foundation.

对于 Attio，人工智能不仅仅是一项功能，更是基础。

Lenny Rachitsky: You can do things like instantly prospect and route leads with research agents, get real-time insights from AI, using customer conversations, and build powerful AI automations for your most complex workflows.

Lenny Rachitsky：您可以执行诸如立即与研究代理寻找潜在客户和路由线索、从 AI 中获取实时见解、使用客户对话以及为最复杂的工作流程构建强大的 AI 自动化等操作。

Industry leaders like flatfile, Replicate, and Modal are already experiencing what's next for CRM.

Flatfile、Replicate 和 Modal 等行业领导者已经在体验 CRM 的下一步发展。

Go to attio.com/lenny to get 15% off your year.

访问 attio.com/lenny 即可享受全年 15% 的折扣。

That's attio.com/lenny.

那是 attio.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to move on to another skill you really get at, but first of all, something I noted, that I wanted to touch on real quick.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想继续学习您真正掌握的另一项技能，但首先，我注意到我想快速触及的一些技能。

You mentioned that WHOOP now does VO2 Max, and this is not a promotion for WHOOP, but that's so cool.

你提到 WHOOP 现在可以达到最大摄氧量，这并不是 WHOOP 的促销，但这太酷了。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a huge thing to track, that this is the thing that Peter Thiel and all these guys are always saying, "This is the thing you want to track, to understand your health and progress as your VO2 Max.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一件需要追踪的大事，Peter Thiel 和所有这些人总是说，“这是你想要追踪的事情，以了解你的健康状况和最大摄氧量的进展。

It's like your blood oxygen level." I don't know exactly what it's, but that's cool.

这就像你的血氧水平。”我不知道具体是什么，但这很酷。

The new WHOOP lets you do that.

新的 WHOOP 可以让您做到这一点。

Hilary Gridley: There's so much cool stuff we're doing right now.

希拉里·格里德利：我们现在正在做很多很酷的事情。

I'm like, I don't know if I want to get into it all right now, but I can.

我想，我不知道我现在是否想完全投入其中，但我可以。

Lenny Rachitsky: We'll get back to it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们稍后再讨论这个问题。

We'll get back to it.

我们会回过头来讨论这个问题。

Hilary Gridley: All right.

希拉里·格里德利：好的。

Let's get back to it.

让我们回到正题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

So another habit/skill that you are really good at, that I've heard from folks is, and you've mentioned this a couple times, is just building habits, helping your team build good habits.

因此，我从人们那里听到的另一个你真正擅长的习惯/技能是，你已经提到过几次，就是养成习惯，帮助你的团队建立良好的习惯。

Lenny Rachitsky: And coming back to the CBT stuff, just like behavior loops and things like that.

Lenny Rachitsky：回到 CBT 的东西，就像行为循环之类的东西。

Talk about just what that is, why that's important, what you help your team learn there.

谈论这是什么，为什么这很重要，以及你帮助你的团队在那里学到了什么。

Hilary Gridley: Yeah, I'm obsessed with habit formation, and reward loops and behavior change, and all of these things.

希拉里·格里德利：是的，我痴迷于习惯的形成、奖励循环和行为改变，以及所有这些事情。

And when I think about trying to change behavior on your team, or just trying to encourage your team to do more of the behaviors that you believe are associated with success, I think a lot of people think about it more of an education model, where it's like, you teach the thing, you assess the thing, and then there's some accountability around the thing.

当我考虑尝试改变团队的行为，或者只是试图鼓励你的团队做更多你认为与成功相关的行为时，我认为很多人更多地认为它是一种教育模式，就像你教东西，你评估东西，然后围绕这件事有一些责任。

Hilary Gridley: And I think, if you think about it more in the context of behavioral psychology, it actually works a lot better.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为，如果你在行为心理学的背景下更多地思考它，它实际上会效果更好。

So I'll give you an example.

所以我给你举个例子。

Many leaders have been trying to think about how to drive AI adoption, AI upscaling on my team, and what that can look like.

许多领导者一直在尝试思考如何推动人工智能的采用、我的团队的人工智能升级，以及这会是什么样子。

Hilary Gridley: And when I talk to people about this outside of the company, I'm always surprised like, "Well, how do you measure it, and how do you enforce it?" And I don't really think about any of that stuff.

希拉里·格里德利：当我与公司外部的人谈论这个问题时，我总是很惊讶，“那么，你如何衡量它，以及如何执行它？”我并没有真正考虑过这些事情。

I'm thinking about, "How am I creating habits around using this?"

我在想，“我如何养成使用它的习惯？”

Hilary Gridley: And for me, there's a couple of things there.

希拉里·格里德利：对我来说，有几件事。

So it's consistency.

所以这是一致性。

How are you getting someone doing something every single day?

你如何让某人每天做某事？

And to do that, it has to start small.

为此，必须从小事做起。

It has to start super easy.

开始必须超级简单。

You have to give them things that take no more than a minute or two to do.

你必须给他们一些不超过一两分钟就能完成的事情。

Hilary Gridley: And actually, I have a 30 days of GPT, I call it, of a list of 30 things to do, one every single day, that I don't know anyone who has gone through this, and not come out the other side, feeling a hundred times more confident in their skills, and actually using it every day as a habit, because it's built as a habit formation tool, and not an education tool.

希拉里·格里德利：实际上，我有一个为期 30 天的 GPT，我称之为 30 件事要做的清单，每天一件，我不知道有谁经历过这件事，但没有从另一边出来，对自己的技能更有一百倍的信心，并且实际上每天都将其作为一种习惯，因为它是作为习惯形成工具而不是教育工具而构建的。

Lenny Rachitsky: And this is using a specific GPT build, or building their own GPT, or what's the habit there?

Lenny Rachitsky：这是使用特定的 GPT 构建，还是构建他们自己的 GPT，或者那里有什么习惯？

Hilary Gridley: The habit is using ChatGPT, or Claude, or any of these tools-

Hilary Gridley：习惯是使用 ChatGPT，或 Claude，或任何这些工具 -

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，好吧。

Okay, got it.

好的，明白了。

I got it.

我得到了它。

Hilary Gridley: ...

希拉里·格里德利：……

tools, to get their work done, in just a generic and get work done way.

工具，以通用的方式完成工作。

And so, I have this little tool, if you sign up for my newsletter, I'll send it to you.

所以，我有这个小工具，如果您订阅我的时事通讯，我会将其发送给您。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's the URL of the newsletter, as you mention that?

Lenny Rachitsky：正如您提到的，时事通讯的 URL 是什么？

Hilary Gridley: Thanks for asking.

希拉里·格里德利：谢谢您的提问。

It is hils.substack.com, H-I-L-S, substack.com.

它是 hils.substack.com、H-I-L-S、substack.com。

Hilary Gridley: But basically, it's one little thing you can do every single day.

希拉里·格里德利：但基本上，这是你每天都可以做的一件小事。

And the key with this is, again, consistency.

关键还是一致性。

So you need to get people doing this thing every day, reducing friction.

所以你需要让人们每天都做这件事，减少摩擦。

I think a mistake a lot of people make when they start thinking about how to drive adoption is, they're like, "Oh, we have to show people how to do their work with these tools."

我认为很多人在开始考虑如何推动采用时犯的一个错误是，“哦，我们必须向人们展示如何使用这些工具来完成工作。”

Hilary Gridley: But I'm like, "Well, work is hard." And if you are on a deadline for something, you've got to get something done, the last thing that you ever want is more friction associated with getting it done.

希拉里·格里德利：但我想，“嗯，工作很辛苦。”如果你的某件事已经到了最后期限，你就必须完成某件事，你最不想要的就是在完成它的过程中出现更多的摩擦。

It is so annoying when you're trying to get a thing done, and your tools are being changed on you, and you don't know how the thing works, and the hot keys are all different, or whatever.

当你试图完成一件事时，你的工具正在改变，你不知道事情是如何工作的，并且热键都不同，或者其他什么，这是非常烦人的。

Hilary Gridley: So I actually think, using it in situations that have nothing to do with your work are way easier, because you're removing all of that friction of, "Oh wait, I got to go think about, 'All right, what's a project that I'm working on?

希拉里·格里德利：所以我实际上认为，在与你的工作无关的情况下使用它会更容易，因为你消除了所有的摩擦，“哦等等，我必须去考虑，‘好吧，我正在做的项目是什么？

Oh, I put this into ChatGPT, and I didn't really get a good answer.'"

哦，我把这个放入 ChatGPT 中，但我并没有真正得到一个好的答案。”

Hilary Gridley: Or, "Now I'm frustrated, because this thing's taking longer than I need it to take, or whatever." I start with things that are just fun, simple use cases.

希拉里·格里德利：或者，“现在我很沮丧，因为这件事花费的时间比我需要的时间要长，或者其他什么。”我从有趣、简单的用例开始。

It might be coming up with times to take a vacation, or places to go on vacation.

它可能会想出度假的时间，或者度假的去处。

Hilary Gridley: Or it might be uploading your calendar into ChatGPT, and asking it for ideas, for talking points for the meetings, or things where the person doesn't have to think, because it's all just spelled out.

Hilary Gridley：或者它可能会将您的日历上传到 ChatGPT，并询问其想法、会议谈话要点或人们不必思考的事情，因为这一切都只是拼写出来的。

Hilary Gridley: And things where there's no external work pressure, that you have to apply this to, that's going to make it an unpleasant experience.

希拉里·格里德利：在没有外部工作压力的情况下，你必须应用此方法，这将使其成为一种不愉快的经历。

So consistency, reduce friction.

保持一致性，减少摩擦。

And then, most importantly, designing reward loops.

然后，最重要的是，设计奖励循环。

Hilary Gridley: And this is something, that when I'm talking to people about designing for behavior change, the number one thing I always tell them is, "You are not thinking enough about the reward loop." The reward loop needs to be powerful, it needs to be immediate, and it needs to be emotional, so that when this person does the thing that you want them to do, they feel like a million bucks.

希拉里·格里德利：当我与人们谈论行为改变的设计时，我总是告诉他们的第一件事是，“你没有充分考虑奖励循环。”奖励循环必须是强大的、即时的、充满情感的，这样当这个人做你想让他们做的事情时，他们就会感觉自己像赚了一百万美元。

Hilary Gridley: When I think about any kind of habit I'm trying to build on my team, that's something that I'm always thinking about, is how can I make sure that when a person does this, they feel really great?

希拉里·格里德利：当我想到我试图在团队中培养任何一种习惯时，我总是在思考，我如何才能确保当一个人这样做时，他们感觉真的很棒？

Hilary Gridley: And part of why I like Custom GPTs as a tool for helping people learn to use LLMs, and I talk about this on the podcast I did with Claire, on how I AI, is because if you put in the prompt, you as the person building the custom GPT, you write the prompt, you put it in, you design it such that somebody can upload a specific document.

Hilary Gridley：我喜欢自定义 GPT 作为帮助人们学习使用 LLM 的工具的部分原因是，我在与 Claire 一起做的播客上谈论了这一点，关于我如何 AI，是因为如果你输入提示，你作为构建自定义 GPT 的人，你编写提示，你将其放入，你设计它，以便有人可以上传特定文档。

And then, they can get a specific output, like feedback on that document, or maybe something more fun than feedback, an improved written version of that document.

然后，他们可以获得特定的输出，例如对该文档的反馈，或者可能是比反馈更有趣的东西，即该文档的改进书面版本。

Hilary Gridley: They get the joy of like, "Oh, this helps me.

希拉里·格里德利：他们感到很高兴，“哦，这对我有帮助。

This was cool," without any of the despair of, "Oh, I'm not very good at prompting, and this didn't really work, and I'm frustrated." And so, I just always think about that in general.

这太酷了，”没有任何绝望，“哦，我不太擅长提示，这并没有真正起作用，我很沮丧。”所以，我总是一般性地思考这个问题。

If I'm trying to build any kind of habit on my team, it's less about the accountability of how I'm enforcing this, and more about how I make it so rewarding for people to do it, that they do it naturally.

如果我试图在我的团队中养成任何一种习惯，那么重点不在于我如何执行这一习惯的责任，而在于我如何让人们在做这件事时获得如此回报，让他们自然而然地这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: I wrote down notes as you were talking, so kind of, the four parts of habits, and I'm going to ask you for an example, to help people see how this actually works in real life.

Lenny Rachitsky：当你说话时，我记下了习惯的四个部分，我想请你举个例子，帮助人们了解这在现实生活中是如何运作的。

But basically, to help people build an actual habit, the three steps are the three things you want to focus on, consistency, friction, and reward loop.

但基本上，为了帮助人们养成实际的习惯，这三个步骤是你要关注的三件事：一致性、摩擦力和奖励循环。

And within reward loop, you want it to be powerful, immediate, and emotional.

在奖励循环中，你希望它是强大的、即时的和情感化的。

What is an example of this?

有什么例子吗？

Hilary Gridley: Yeah, I can give some, actually, examples of how we do this in product, if that would be interesting.

希拉里·格里德利：是的，实际上，我可以举一些我们如何在产品中做到这一点的例子，如果这很有趣的话。

Hilary Gridley: Because I think there's something WHOOP is really good at.

希拉里·格里德利：因为我认为 WHOOP 确实有一些擅长的地方。

So I think one of the most interesting kind of anti-reward loops on WHOOP is around alcohol.

所以我认为 WHOOP 上最有趣的反奖励循环之一是围绕酒精的。

WHOOP has this recovery system.

WHOOP有这个恢复系统。

You get a recovery score every morning.

您每天早上都会得到恢复分数。

It's red, yellow, green, and it's basically how recovered you are, and how ready you are to take on the day.

它有红色、黄色、绿色，基本上代表了您的恢复程度以及您为新的一天做好的准备程度。

Hilary Gridley: And if you drink, and you're on WHOOP, you will very quickly learn that any time you drink, you get a red recovery.

希拉里·格里德利：如果你喝酒，并且服用 WHOOP，你很快就会发现，只要你喝酒，你就会得到红色恢复。

It's so interesting, because it's not like people who were drinking weren't getting hangovers before, or they knew that it was disrupting their sleep.

这很有趣，因为喝酒的人以前并不是没有宿醉，或者他们知道喝酒会扰乱他们的睡眠。

None of this is news for people, but there's something about seeing that red score that just feels like, it just feels bad.

这对人们来说都不是新闻，但看到红色分数的感觉就像是，感觉很糟糕。

It has this really profound emotional impact on people.

它对人们的情感影响非常深远。

Hilary Gridley: And when you see the green score, it feels great.

希拉里·格里德利：当你看到绿色的分数时，感觉棒极了。

It's like, "Ooh, I'm doing something well, I'm taking care of myself.

就像是，“哦，我做得很好，我照顾好自己了。

I'm a healthy person." And I hear this when I talk to members all the time, and I hear people say, "I've had problems with my drinking for years.

我是一个健康的人。”当我一直与会员交谈时，我听到人们说：“多年来我的饮酒问题一直存在。

And it wasn't until I got on WHOOP, that I was really able to get a handle on my drinking."

直到我上了 WHOOP，我才真正能够控制自己的酗酒问题。”

Hilary Gridley: I'm always, again, amazed by this, because I'm like, "You had all the information you needed before," but there's something about the, you wake up, and you get that red score, that's just, it manages to override whatever was driving people to do it in the first place.

希拉里·格里德利：我总是再次对此感到惊讶，因为我想，“你以前拥有了所需的所有信息”，但是有一些关于，你醒来，你得到红色分数，只是，它成功地超越了最初驱使人们这样做的任何因素。

Hilary Gridley: And then, I think, continuing to have that data, where you can look back at your data and see, "Oh, that was the red day, that was the day that I did this thing." And it's something that we've actually been trying to find ways to do this in a longer term way.

希拉里·格里德利：然后，我想，继续拥有这些数据，你可以回顾你的数据，然后看到，“哦，那是红色的一天，那是我做这件事的那一天。”我们实际上一直在努力寻找长期的方法来做到这一点。

Hilary Gridley: Because when you have these short reward loops, it's easier, where it's like, "I did a thing." And then, I immediately either got a reward, Green Recovery, or got an anti-reward, Red Recovery, and that is changing my behavior as a result.

希拉里·格里德利：因为当你有这些短奖励循环时，事情会变得更容易，就像“我做了一件事”。然后，我立即要么获得奖励，绿色恢复，要么获得反奖励，红色恢复，这正在改变我的行为。

Hilary Gridley: And we have this new feature, Healthspan, that we just launched with our new hardware.

希拉里·格里德利：我们刚刚通过新硬件推出了这个新功能 Healthspan。

And basically, what it's trying to do is help you have this reward loop, between your behaviors and activities that you're doing today, and what means for how healthy you're going to be in 20, 30, 40 years.

基本上，它试图做的就是帮助你在你今天所做的行为和活动之间建立一个奖励循环，以及对你 20 年、30 年、40 年后的健康状况意味着什么。

Hilary Gridley: And so, we have something similar where we have this, we call it the Amoeba.

希拉里·格里德利：所以，我们有类似的东西，我们称之为阿米巴。

It has your WHOOP age in it.

里面有你的年龄。

It has colors, and moves around, and that changes, based on how your behaviors and your activities change, every single day.

它有颜色，可以四处移动，并且会根据您每天的行为和活动的变化而变化。

Hilary Gridley: And the colors change when you're doing better, and when you're doing worse.

希拉里·格里德利：当你做得更好和做得更差时，颜色会发生变化。

And you can kind of see it all broken down, how you sleep, your VO2 Max, the consistency of your sleep, how much time you're spending in different heart rate zones, how much time you're spending in strength training, things like that.

你可以看到这一切都被分解了，你的睡眠方式、你的最大摄氧量、你的睡眠的一致性、你在不同心率区域花费了多少时间、你在力量训练上花费了多少时间，诸如此类。

Hilary Gridley: And we found that, again, it's just this incredibly powerful reward loop, because we're taking something that historically has been really, really hard, which is, "When I make healthy changes today, not only do I not see the results of those for decades, but the short term reward loop of those often feels pretty bad, because change is hard, and it feels bad before it feels good."

希拉里·格里德利：我们再次发现，这正是这种令人难以置信的强大奖励循环，因为我们正在采取一些历史上非常非常困难的事情，那就是，“当我今天做出健康的改变时，我不仅在几十年内看不到这些结果，而且这些短期奖励循环常常感觉非常糟糕，因为改变是困难的，而且在感觉良好之前感觉很糟糕。”

Hilary Gridley: And trying to build that reward loop that is more rewarding for people to see those numbers change, and to see those colors change, so that they're actually able to make those changes, and see that progress, and feel really good about it.

希拉里·格里德利（Hilary Gridley）：并试图建立一个奖励循环，让人们看到这些数字的变化，看到这些颜色的变化，获得更多的奖励，这样他们实际上就能够做出这些改变，看到进展，并感觉非常好。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you're using all these habit building tactics that folks have been using historically, to get you to check your Instagram likes, and your Facebook posts for actual good, for helping people live longer and happier.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你使用人们历史上一直使用的所有这些习惯养成策略，让你检查你的 Instagram 点赞和你的 Facebook 帖子是否有真正的好处，帮助人们活得更长久、更快乐。

That makes me very happy.

这让我非常高兴。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there an example of doing this sort of thing with your team, of helping them build, and you talk about AI learning to use Claude, ChatGPT?

Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个例子可以和你的团队一起做这类事情，帮助他们构建，你谈论人工智能学习使用 Claude、ChatGPT？

Hilary Gridley: Yeah, I think with AI, I think a lot of it's just shouting people out, right?

希拉里·格里德利：是的，我认为对于人工智能来说，我认为很多只是大声喊叫人们，对吧？

When somebody is using AI to solve a problem that they wouldn't have used AI before, give them a shout-out in the team meeting, let them demo that.

当有人使用人工智能来解决他们以前不会使用人工智能的问题时，请在团队会议上大声疾呼，让他们进行演示。

Hilary Gridley: Again, make them feel like a million bucks for doing the thing.

希拉里·格里德利：再一次，让他们觉得自己做这件事就像赚了一百万美元。

And people respond to that, people will see, I mean, maybe it's because I work at WHOOP, and we're all obsessed with reward loops, so we're all choosing them.

人们对此做出反应，人们会看到，我的意思是，也许是因为我在 WHOOP 工作，我们都沉迷于奖励循环，所以我们都选择它们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Or reward looping each other.

Lenny Rachitsky：或者奖励相互循环。

"Here's your reward."

“这是给你的奖励。”

Hilary Gridley: No, exactly.

希拉里·格里德利：不，完全正确。

But no, people see that, and people respond to it.

但不，人们看到了这一点，并且人们对此做出了反应。

I think another example is something that I think about a lot, and is relevant to our conversation about, just how you build teams that can do hard things, is how you encourage people to take care of themselves outside of work.

我认为另一个例子是我经常思考的，并且与我们的谈话相关，即如何建立能够完成困难任务的团队，以及如何鼓励人们在工作之外照顾自己。

And it's something that I'm always trying to model for my team, and make it really visible the ways that I'm doing this, and sort of having my hobbies, and my other various things.

这是我一直试图为我的团队树立的榜样，并使其真正可见我所做的事情，以及我的爱好和其他各种事情。

Hilary Gridley: And as a result, I also try to reward, have these reward loops, when I see people on my team doing the same thing.

希拉里·格里德利：因此，当我看到团队中的人做同样的事情时，我也会尝试奖励，建立这些奖励循环。

Because I think people, bosses often inadvertently create reward loops for, "Oh, this person, they had to stay up till two o'clock to get it done, but they got it done." When you create those reward loops, that's the behavior that people start mimicking.

因为我认为人们、老板经常会不经意地创造奖励循环，“哦，这个人，他们必须熬夜到两点才能完成任务，但他们完成了。”当你创建这些奖励循环时，人们就会开始模仿这种行为。

Hilary Gridley: And so, I try to do the opposite.

希拉里·格里德利：所以，我尝试做相反的事情。

I try to find ways that I really am impressed with my team, and the ways that they take care of themselves outside of work, because I think that makes them better at their jobs, frankly, and just happier humans.

我试图找到让我的团队印象深刻的方式，以及他们在工作之外照顾自己的方式，因为坦率地说，我认为这会让他们在工作中做得更好，并且让他们变得更快乐。

So there's a PM on my team, Emily, who teaches at Handlebar.

我的团队中有一位产品经理 Emily，她在 Handlebar 任教。

She's a fitness instructor in her spare time.

她业余时间是一名健身教练。

Hilary Gridley: And so, whenever we have a long meeting, I'll be like, "Oh, Emily, why don't you lead stretches, to get the energy level in the room up?

希拉里·格里德利：所以，每当我们开长时间的会议时，我都会说，“哦，艾米丽，你为什么不做一些伸展运动，让房间里的能量水平提高呢？

Just nothing serious, just for a minute, before we start the meeting." And it's kind of fun.

没什么严重的事，就在我们开始会议之前一分钟。”这很有趣。

Everyone has a laugh about it, "Emily's doing her thing," and I'll be like, "Everyone, come check out Emily at Handlebar in Charlestown this Saturday, 10 a.m."

每个人都会笑，“艾米丽正在做她的事情，”我会说，“大家，本周六上午 10 点到查尔斯敦的 Handlebar 来看看艾米丽。”

Hilary Gridley: And by the way, you all out there in the podcast world should do that if you're in the Boston area, she's great.

希拉里·格里德利：顺便说一句，如果你在波士顿地区，播客界的所有人都应该这样做，她很棒。

Shout-out to Emily.

向艾米丽大喊。

But it's things like that.

但就是这样的事情。

It's just finding these small ways to, because people are already laughing, people are already smiling, we're doing this silly thing, everyone's in a good mood, and I'm like, "Boom, perfect time to give someone a shout-out, and make them feel like a million bucks for doing something, that in many cases, they might think, 'Oh, am I allowed to have this other job outside work?

只是找到这些小方法，因为人们已经在笑，人们已经在微笑，我们正在做这件愚蠢的事情，每个人都心情很好，我想，“繁荣，这是给某人大声喊叫的最佳时机，让他们感觉自己做了一件事就赚了百万美元，在很多情况下，他们可能会想，‘哦，我可以在工作之外做其他工作吗？

Is this okay?'" And so yeah, you got to proactively build those reward loops.

这样可以吗？’”所以，是的，你必须主动建立这些奖励循环。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love the reward loop of Emily getting this shout-out right now.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢艾米丽现在得到这样的赞扬的奖励循环。

This is so meta.

这太元了。

Lenny Rachitsky: You have a full class coming up in Boston.

Lenny Rachitsky：您将在波士顿参加完整的课程。

Is there anything else along those lines?

还有其他类似的事情吗？

Because that was really interesting?

因为那真的很有趣？

And also, people, I know managers already kind of do this, just promoting.

而且，我知道经理们已经这样做了，只是进行晋升。

Lenny Rachitsky: But so, I think the core lesson here is, focus on things you want to encourage more.

Lenny Rachitsky：但是，我认为这里的核心教训是，专注于你想要更多鼓励的事情。

Less so, "Hey, they worked the weekend, they got it done, so awesome.

不那么重要，“嘿，他们周末工作，他们完成了，太棒了。

Thank you for doing that."

谢谢你这么做。”

Lenny Rachitsky: You're saying that's almost an anti-pattern, because you don't necessarily want that as a habit.

Lenny Rachitsky：你说这几乎是一种反模式，因为你不一定希望将其作为一种习惯。

So it's more like, shift your reward announcements to things you actually, intentionally want to create, in a new team.

所以它更像是，将你的奖励公告转移到你真正想要在新团队中创造的东西。

Hilary Gridley: Yeah, and just be really, really thoughtful about it.

希拉里·格里德利：是的，要非常非常认真地考虑一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，好的。

So let's come back to the taking care of yourself, because that's something else that came up, almost everyone mentioned this.

所以让我们回到照顾自己的问题上来，因为这是另外一件事，几乎每个人都提到了这一点。

So you're doing a good job with this, of finding time to take care of yourself, and modeling that for other people.

所以你在这方面做得很好，找到时间照顾自己，并为其他人树立榜样。

Lenny Rachitsky: Specifically, a lot of people commented on how you create space for creativity.

Lenny Rachitsky：具体来说，很多人都评论了如何为创造力创造空间。

And I think, to a lot of people, a lot of PMs, especially, is just, "I have no time for anything.

我认为，对很多人来说，尤其是很多产品经理，只是说，“我没有时间做任何事情。

I just have meetings, back to back, all day.

我整天都在连续开会。

I barely have time to go to the bathroom or eat."

我几乎没有时间去洗手间或吃饭。”

Lenny Rachitsky: And I'm curious to hear just how you do this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很好奇你是如何做到这一点的。

How do you create space in your day for creative work, and deep work, and thinking outside of the meeting?

您如何在一天中为创造性工作、深度工作和会议之外的思考创造空间？

Hilary Gridley: Yeah, it's funny.

希拉里·格里德利：是的，这很有趣。

I'm glad to hear people think I'm good at this, because I'm terrible at organizing events.

我很高兴听到人们认为我擅长于此，因为我不擅长组织活动。

My team's always, "Oh, we should do a fun event." I'm like, "Yeah, that's a great idea."

我的团队总是说，“哦，我们应该举办一场有趣的活动。”我想，“是的，这是个好主意。”

Hilary Gridley: And then I don't organize it.

希拉里·格里德利：然后我不组织它。

So I like to think, I do this in other ways.

所以我喜欢思考，我通过其他方式做到这一点。

And I do think one of them is just in modeling, how to carve out space for things, and a couple of things.

我确实认为其中之一就是建模，如何为事物开辟空间等等。

I think there's the creativity, which for me is probably more outside of work.

我认为这就是创造力，对我来说，这可能更多是在工作之外。

For me, it's creativity.

对我来说，这就是创造力。

Hilary Gridley: But again, it's a big part of me as a manager, what I think I can help people with is, back to the point of behavioral activation, understanding what the things are that a person needs to be happy, to be their best self, to be a high functioning person.

希拉里·格里德利：但同样，作为一名经理，这是我的一个重要部分，我认为我可以帮助人们的是，回到行为激活的点，了解一个人需要什么才能快乐，成为最好的自己，成为一个高功能的人。

That depends on their values, it depends on a lot of things about them.

这取决于他们的价值观，取决于他们的很多事情。

So for Emily, it's fitness, it's teaching, it's these things.

所以对于艾米丽来说，就是健身，就是教学，就是这些东西。

For me, it's having my crafts that I do, my illustration, my writing, my reading, all of these sorts of things.

对我来说，我所做的就是我的手艺、我的插图、我的写作、我的阅读，所有这些事情。

Hilary Gridley: I think that that's the first step is just, as a leader, understanding what those are for people on your team.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为，作为领导者，第一步就是了解这些对团队成员来说意味着什么。

And then, as I said, modeling it.

然后，正如我所说，对其进行建模。

Hilary Gridley: I try to always tell people, "Here's how I'm doing these things." I talk about them, so it's really normalized, because I think a lot of PMs are like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so busy.

希拉里·格里德利：我总是尝试告诉人们，“这就是我做这些事情的方式。”我谈论它们，所以这真的很正常，因为我认为很多产品经理都会说，“天哪，我太忙了。

I have no time.

我没有时间。

I'm in meetings all day." But that's a little bit self-inflicted, I think.

我一整天都在开会。”但我认为这有点自作自受。

Hilary Gridley: At some point, you have to be the one responsible for getting yourself out of the weeds, and it's hard to do, but it is doable.

希拉里·格里德利：在某些时候，你必须负责让自己摆脱困境，这很难做到，但这是可行的。

So I think, just showing people that it's possible, showing people that you can do these things.

所以我认为，只是向人们展示这是可能的，向人们展示你可以做到这些事情。

And I talk about them, I bring them to lessons.

我谈论他们，带他们去上课。

Hilary Gridley: I have a book club that I sometimes require at work, and then I say, "Maybe I don't need to require this anymore," but ways to just make it really visible, make sure people know that I'm doing it, and then ask them about it.

希拉里·格里德利：我有一个读书俱乐部，有时在工作中需要，然后我说，“也许我不再需要这个了，”但要让它真正可见，确保人们知道我正在这样做，然后询问他们。

Hilary Gridley: If I, in my one on one lens, and I'm checking in with people, I'm asking them, "What do you do for joy?

希拉里·格里德利：如果我在一对一的镜头中与人们打交道，我会问他们，“你会做什么快乐的事？

Are you doing something every single day that's bringing you joy in your life?" And if they say no, I'm like, "That's a problem.

你每天都在做一些给你的生活带来快乐的事情吗？”如果他们说不，我会说，“这是一个问题。

What are we going to do about that?

对此我们该怎么办？

And do you even know what those things are?"

而且你知道那些东西是什么吗？”

Hilary Gridley: Because I think a lot of people don't, and a lot of people, it's great.

希拉里·格里德利：因为我认为很多人不这么认为，而且很多人都觉得这很棒。

They're like, "Oh, I need to be getting X number of hours of exercise, X hours of sleep.

他们会说，“哦，我需要 X 小时的锻炼，X 小时的睡眠。

I know I need to eat lunch right at 12:00, or else I turn into a pumpkin."

我知道我需要在 12:00 吃午饭，否则我就会变成南瓜。”

Hilary Gridley: If it's somebody who knows what all those things are, and you're just there to kind of help them carve out time, that's one thing.

希拉里·格里德利：如果有人知道所有这些事情是什么，而你只是在那里帮助他们挤出时间，那是一回事。

But I think, and a lot of times, people don't even know.

但我认为，很多时候，人们甚至不知道。

Then you kind of behavioral activation them, where you're like, "All right, well, why don't you try some things, and get back to me, and let me know what seemed to work, what seemed to make a difference?"

然后你用行为激活他们，你会说，“好吧，好吧，你为什么不尝试一些事情，然后回到我身边，让我知道什么似乎有效，什么似乎有所作为？”

Hilary Gridley: But I do think so much of it is like a permission structure, because people feel the pressure to be like, "Oh, I'm so busy, I'm so busy, I'm in meetings all day.

希拉里·格里德利：但我确实认为这在很大程度上就像一种许可结构，因为人们感到压力，“哦，我太忙了，我太忙了，我整天都在开会。

Hilary Gridley: I can't decline these meetings.

希拉里·格里德利：我不能拒绝这些会面。

I can't not do these things." So in many ways, I think just modeling, it gives them the permission structure to start to take back their life.

我不能不做这些事情。”因此，在很多方面，我认为只是建模，它就为他们提供了开始恢复生活的许可结构。

Lenny Rachitsky: I could see why people love working for you.

Lenny Rachitsky：我明白为什么人们喜欢为你工作。

Being asked in your one on one, "Have you done anything today that brings you joy?

在一对一中被问到：“你今天做了什么让你高兴的事吗？

And if you haven't, that's a problem." Wow.

如果你没有，那就是一个问题。”哇。

Hilary Gridley: It's important.

希拉里·格里德利：这很重要。

It's what life's all out.

这就是生活的一切。

Why are we here, if it's just to toil, and be miserable?

如果只是为了劳苦、受苦，我们为什么还要来这里？

Lenny Rachitsky: And also, they will be better people at work, and they'll do better work.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：而且，他们在工作中会成为更好的人，他们会做得更好。

I think that's, tell me, correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like that's an element of this.

我认为，如果我错了，请告诉我，纠正我，但感觉这就是其中的一个因素。

Hilary Gridley: Well, and it is so funny, because so much of this stuff, it's obvious when you apply it to an athletic context.

希拉里·格里德利：嗯，这很有趣，因为很多这样的东西，当你将其应用到运动环境中时，它是显而易见的。

And obviously, I talked about the recovery score.

显然，我谈到了恢复分数。

This concept of athletes need to recover is very obvious.

这种运动员需要恢复的观念是非常明显的。

No one, I think, would argue with that.

我想，没有人会反对这一点。

Hilary Gridley: If you're just pushing yourself at 100% of your physical capacity all the time, not only are you going to burn out, but you're literally going to suffer performance decline.

希拉里·格里德利：如果你一直让自己发挥出 100% 的体能，那么你不仅会精疲力尽，而且实际上会遭受性能下降。

And in the same way, I think in the athletic world, there's so much more, just acceptance of, I don't even want to say limits, but just like, you have to take the time to do the things you need to be your best.

同样，我认为在体育界，还有很多事情，只是接受，我什至不想说限制，但就像，你必须花时间做你需要做到最好的事情。

And that's not just running into the wall all day.

这不仅仅是整天碰壁。

Hilary Gridley: And I think we forget that at work, but I think the analog is 100% there.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为我们在工作中忘记了这一点，但我认为 100% 是类似的。

I also think about this with, in terms of being able to have creative breakthroughs of any kind, it's just so important to have active rest.

我还认为，就能够取得任何形式的创造性突破而言，积极休息非常重要。

It's so important to have heads downtime.

头脑休息非常重要。

This stuff is all very well documented.

这些东西都有很好的记录。

We know it all, but we just come up with excuses to not give it to ourselves.

我们都知道这一切，但我们只是想出借口不把它交给自己。

I think it's kind of self-sabotage, at a certain point.

我认为在某种程度上这是一种自我破坏。

Lenny Rachitsky: I definitely come up with excuses not to do that, and work all the time.

Lenny Rachitsky：我肯定会找借口不这样做，并且一直在工作。

So I could use this advice myself.

所以我自己可以使用这个建议。

Hilary Gridley: And that's why, here's the thing, here's the thing.

希拉里·格里德利：这就是为什么，事情就是这样，事情就是这样。

The Reason I'm so regimented about this is because, if I'm not, I will fall apart.

我对此如此严格的原因是，如果我不这样做，我就会崩溃。

There's this quote, I can't remember where I saw this, but I love it.

有这样一段话，我不记得在哪里看到过，但我很喜欢。

It's like, "I have exercised the demons from my head, but they are outside and they are doing pushups."

这就像，“我已经从我的头脑中锻炼了恶魔，但他们在外面做俯卧撑。”

Hilary Gridley: The threat of the demons coming back is always there.

希拉里·格里德利：恶魔卷土重来的威胁始终存在。

And so, I take this stuff really seriously, because I know, if I let myself start to slide into, I'm not doing the things I need to do to take care of myself, I'm going to have a bad time.

所以，我非常认真地对待这件事，因为我知道，如果我让自己开始陷入困境，我就不会做我需要做的事情来照顾自己，我会过得很糟糕。

The walls are going to start closing in around me.

我周围的墙壁将开始闭合。

Hilary Gridley: And I'm not shy about that.

希拉里·格里德利：我对此并不害羞。

To me, there's no point in torturing myself, and just working so hard, and having no room for joy, and having no room for creativity.

对我来说，折磨自己是没有意义的，只是这么努力工作，没有快乐的余地，没有创造力的余地。

Even just from a practical standpoint, I'm just not going to succeed.

即使只是从实际的角度来看，我也不会成功。

Lenny Rachitsky: This comes back to your point about, I think it was called behavioral activation, doing the thing.

Lenny Rachitsky：这又回到了你的观点，我认为这被称为行为激活，做某件事。

Instead of waiting for you to feel a certain feeling, do the thing that will make you feel that way.

不要等待你有某种感觉，而是去做能让你有这种感觉的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

As maybe a final area, but I have a few more questions after this, so maybe not.

也许是最后一个领域，但此后我还有几个问题，所以也许不是。

The final area is AI.

最后一个领域是人工智能。

I am happy that we waited this long to get deep into AI.

我很高兴我们等了这么久才深入了解人工智能。

We're not going to spend a lot of time here.

我们不会在这里花很多时间。

You wrote a whole guest post about this.

你写了一篇关于这个的完整客座文章。

You did How I AI to talk through some of this stuff.

你通过《How I AI》来讨论其中的一些内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: But when we were talking earlier, you said that you think people still are completely undervaluing the power AI could have on their ability to learn, and improve themselves.

Lenny Rachitsky：但是当我们之前谈话时，您说您认为人们仍然完全低估了人工智能对他们学习和提高自我能力的影响力。

And I know you spent a lot of time on this, with all these GPTs you've built.

我知道您在这方面花费了大量时间，并构建了所有这些 GPT。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just talk about the sense of how much you think people still under-appreciate how much power there is in AI, and helping them become better.

Lenny Rachitsky：请谈谈您认为人们仍然低估人工智能的力量以及帮助他们变得更好的感觉。

Hilary Gridley: Yeah.

希拉里·格里德利：是的。

I think we are not being nearly creative enough, when it comes to how to think about learning with AI.

我认为，在如何思考人工智能学习方面，我们的创造力还不够。

And I think, you hear people worry about entry level jobs, and when you think about an entry level job, it is sort of inefficient by design, because you have taken analyst, sort of a classic entry level role.

我认为，你会听到人们担心入门级工作，当你想到入门级工作时，你会发现它的设计效率很低，因为你担任了分析师，这是一个经典的入门级角色。

Hilary Gridley: They're doing grunt work, they're doing really tedious work, but they're getting a lot of reps in, because that's exactly how you learn the judgment to do higher level jobs well.

希拉里·格里德利：他们正在做繁重的工作，他们正在做非常乏味的工作，但他们得到了很多代表，因为这正是你学习判断力以做好更高级别工作的方式。

And I hear this in creative fields too.

我在创意领域也听到过这种说法。

I hear this from every, I certainly feel this way.

我从每个人那里都听到这样的说法，我当然也有这样的感觉。

Hilary Gridley: The work that I did in the beginning of my career, it didn't feel like it was all that important, in terms of the impact it was having, but it did feel like it was transformative, in terms of my own judgment and my own taste, and how I think about just making very quick judgment calls.

希拉里·格里德利：我在职业生涯初期所做的工作，就其所产生的影响而言，感觉并不那么重要，但就我自己的判断和我自己的品味以及我如何快速做出判断而言，它确实感觉它具有变革性。

Hilary Gridley: Now, I just wouldn't have been able to do that, if I didn't spend years learning.

希拉里·格里德利：现在，如果我不花多年的时间学习，我就不可能做到这一点。

I used to do social media, the skill of having to condense something that I want to say into 120 characters, or whatever it used to be on old Twitter, 240, I can't remember.

我以前做社交媒体，需要将我想说的话压缩成 120 个字符，或者旧 Twitter 上以前的内容，240 个字符，我不记得了。

Lenny Rachitsky: I forget, actually, isn't that crazy?

Lenny Rachitsky：我忘了，实际上，这不是很疯狂吗？

I forget what the original was.

我忘记原作是什么了

I think it was 140.

我认为是140。

Okay, 140 characters, yeah.

好的，140 个字符，是的。

Hilary Gridley: 140, I think.

希拉里·格里德利：我想是 140。

It was short.

时间很短。

And if you had to get a link in there, good luck to you.

如果您必须在那里获得链接，祝您好运。

Hilary Gridley: But oh my gosh, my ability to just look at something written today, and just cut it, that text in half, third, whatever it needs to fill the space, I can do that in my sleep, because I got all these reps very early in my career.

希拉里·格里德利：但是天哪，我有能力只看今天写的东西，然后把它剪成两半，三分之一，无论它需要什么来填充空间，我都可以在睡梦中做到这一点，因为我在职业生涯的早期就得到了所有这些代表。

Hilary Gridley: I think people see the way that there's a threat of companies not wanting to hire as much entry-level talent, because it's like, "Oh, this is the kind of work that AI can do."

希拉里·格里德利：我认为人们看到了公司不想雇用那么多入门级人才的威胁，因为这就像，“哦，这就是人工智能可以做的工作。”

Hilary Gridley: The fear that I hear, at least, is if you're not getting those reps early in your career, maybe it's not contributing so much value to the company at that moment, but it's how you learn to be great later on.

希拉里·格里德利：至少我听到的担心是，如果你在职业生涯的早期没有获得这些代表，也许当时它不会为公司贡献那么多价值，但这是你以后学习如何变得优秀的方法。

Hilary Gridley: And so, there's a fear that in five, 10 years, we're just not going to have that class of people, who have learned to do the jobs well, and who have built judgment in that way.

希拉里·格里德利：所以，人们担心在五年、十年内，我们将不会拥有这样一类人，他们学会了做好工作，并以这种方式建立了判断力。

Hilary Gridley: But what I think that misses is, it assumes that you go and you do this analyst job for two years, and at the end of it you have a person who knows how to make models really well, knows how to do a few things really well.

希拉里·格里德利：但我认为它错过的是，它假设你做了两年的分析师工作，最后你有一个人知道如何很好地制作模型，知道如何很好地做一些事情。

But why does that have to take two years?

但为什么这需要两年的时间呢？

Why does that model of you grind over this thing?

为什么你的那个模型会在这件事上苦苦挣扎？

Hilary Gridley: You wait for feedback.

希拉里·格里德利：你等待反馈。

Eventually, you get that feedback.

最终，你会得到反馈。

Maybe that feedback's good, maybe it's not.

也许反馈是好的，也许不是。

You go back, you try again.

你回去吧，你再试一次。

It actually is really inefficient, when you think about it.

仔细想想，这实际上是非常低效的。

Hilary Gridley: And the sort of learning applicAttions around AI that I get really excited about are, how do you shrink that loop?

希拉里·格里德利：我真正感兴趣的关于人工智能的学习应用程序是，如何缩小这个循环？

So in my podcast with Claire, I showed her how I build these GPTs, that kind of think like me.

因此，在我与 Claire 的播客中，我向她展示了我如何构建这些 GPT，这有点像我的想法。

And the purpose of that is so that my team can get feedback that is at least 80% close to the feedback that I would be giving them.

这样做的目的是让我的团队能够获得与我向他们提供的反馈至少 80% 接近的反馈。

Hilary Gridley: But instead of having to wait until I get to their message, or until our one on one, they can get that on demand as many times as they want forever.

希拉里·格里德利：但是，他们不必等到我收到他们的消息，或者等到我们一对一的消息，他们可以根据需要多次获取消息。

And I think there's a lot of things like this, of ways that things that require other people, just naturally slow things down, require getting feedback from other people, just naturally slow things down.

我认为有很多类似的事情，需要其他人的事情，自然会减慢速度，需要从其他人那里得到反馈，自然会减慢速度。

Hilary Gridley: We can build AI tools that, in my view, there's no reason why the amount of reps that you get at whatever task you're doing, you can be a film editor, just sitting there, poring over the film, deciding what to edit, what to cut, what to put into the trailer, or whatever it's making.

希拉里·格里德利：我们可以构建人工智能工具，在我看来，无论你在做什么任务，你都可以成为一名电影剪辑师，没有理由坐在那里，仔细研究电影，决定编辑什么，剪什么，在预告片中放入什么，或者制作什么。

That's an incredibly tedious job that takes forever.

这是一项极其乏味且需要永远进行的工作。

Hilary Gridley: And I think there's no reason we can't make that way more efficient with AI, that make the learning more fun.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为我们没有理由不能利用人工智能提高这种方式的效率，让学习变得更有趣。

And so, I think that that's sort of my hot take is yes, there is this threat of, a lot of these jobs that are things that seem like you can just automate them away, that might happen.

所以，我认为我的热门观点是，是的，存在这种威胁，很多这样的工作看起来你可以将它们自动化，这可能会发生。

Hilary Gridley: But we absolutely still need to be investing in people's skills.

希拉里·格里德利：但我们绝对仍然需要投资于人们的技能。

I just don't think we need to be investing in them historically in the way that we always have.

我只是认为我们不需要像以往那样对它们进行历史性的投资。

And I think in the future, we'll find that those ways actually seem quite inefficient, compared to what's possible today.

我认为在未来，我们会发现与今天可能的方法相比，这些方法实际上看起来效率很低。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a powerful point.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有力的观点。

And we're already seeing this.

我们已经看到了这一点。

I imagine you've seen these studies, I think it's in Nigeria, where they give students AI tutors, and they just zoom to the next, they accelerate so quickly in their progression of just reading and math.

我想你已经看过这些研究了，我想是在尼日利亚，他们为学生提供人工智能导师，他们只是放大到下一个，他们在阅读和数学方面的进展如此之快。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think we're already seeing it.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想我们已经看到了。

And it's harder to measure in PM and product, and all these things, but in school, it's a lot easier to measure, and we're already seeing results there.

在 PM 和产品以及所有这些方面衡量起来比较困难，但在学校里，衡量起来要容易得多，而且我们已经在那里看到了结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: And to make this very real for people, you have this specific GPT, I think it's called Socrates, or what is called?

Lenny Rachitsky：为了让这对人们来说非常真实，你有这个特定的 GPT，我认为它被称为苏格拉底，或者叫什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: Aristotle?

莱尼·拉契茨基：亚里士多德？

Okay.

好的。

No, we're going to edit that out.

不，我们要把它编辑掉。

Aristotle, where it gives you scenarios in a product scenario.

亚里士多德，它为您提供了产品场景中的场景。

Lenny Rachitsky: Give an example, just to give people a sense of what this can do.

Lenny Rachitsky：举个例子，只是为了让人们了解它能做什么。

Hilary Gridley: Yeah, so this came from, I was talking earlier about learning how to make a really strong, logical argument, or just a strong argument for your point of view, in general.

希拉里·格里德利：是的，所以这来自于，我之前谈到学习如何提出一个真正有力的、合乎逻辑的论证，或者只是为你的观点提供一个强有力的论证，一般来说。

And the sort of fundamental skill for that, in my view, is logical thinking, logical reasoning.

在我看来，这种基本技能就是逻辑思维、逻辑推理。

And when I think about the best way, we have to test that today, at least ...

当我想到最好的方法时，我们今天必须测试一下，至少......

Hilary Gridley: Think about the best way we have to test that today, at least the best is maybe not the right word, but the standard way we have to test that, the LSAT, the test that you take to get into law school, that is what that tests.

希拉里·格里德利：想想我们今天必须测试的最好方法，至少“最好”这个词可能不是正确的，但我们必须测试的标准方法，LSAT，你进入法学院的考试，这就是测试的内容。

And it sort of gives you these different scenarios and we'll try to say if a is true, then which of the following is true, is not true?

它给了你这些不同的场景，我们会尝试说如果 a 为真，那么以下哪一个是真的，不是真的？

Sort of testing some of these different logical relationships.

测试其中一些不同的逻辑关系。

Hilary Gridley: And so what I did was I made a GPT that I basically told it, "Create LSAT style questions to test logical reasoning, but put them in the scenarios of things that a PM would encounter." And I have a version of this that's very specific to WHOOP and working in consumer health, but you could do it for anything or you can just do generic, however you want to do it.

Hilary Gridley：所以我做了一个 GPT，我基本上告诉它，“创建 LSAT 风格的问题来测试逻辑推理，但把它们放在 PM 会遇到的场景中。”我有一个专门针对 WHOOP 并致力于消费者健康的版本，但你可以为任何事情做它，或者你可以只做通用的，无论你想做什么。

Hilary Gridley: And actually it's kind of fun because it gives you the scenario and it's like, "The sales team is telling you that we need to invest in feature A and the, I don't know, the engineering team is telling you that we only have time to do feature B and the metrics are telling you that people who get this feature retain better." It just sort of gives you these little things and it's like, follow that logic, which is the logically best path from this?

希拉里·格里德利：实际上这很有趣，因为它给你提供了这样一个场景，“销售团队告诉你，我们需要投资功能 A，而我不知道，工程团队告诉你，我们只有时间做功能 B，而指标告诉你，获得此功能的人会保留得更好。”它只是给了你这些小东西，就像遵循这个逻辑，从逻辑上讲，哪条是最好的路径？

And it gives you a little multiple choice answer, you select one and it explains why you're right or wrong.

它会给你一个小小的多项选择答案，你选择一个，它就会解释为什么你是对的或错的。

Hilary Gridley: And so I think that's just another example of, you can't create those hyper personalized learnings, where I can make one that is literally so specific to you and your life, but is testing and training you on this broader skill set.

希拉里·格里德利：所以我认为这只是另一个例子，你无法创建那些超个性化的学习，我可以制作一个对于你和你的生活来说非常具体的学习，但可以测试和培训你更广泛的技能。

And I think you can make things more fun that way, even in just the school context, in terms of doing that in a way that's just relevant to a person's interest, relevant to the things they care about.

我认为你可以通过这种方式让事情变得更有趣，即使只是在学校环境中，以一种与一个人的兴趣、与他们关心的事情相关的方式来做这件事。

I think there's a ton of really interesting potential there too.

我认为那里也有很多非常有趣的潜力。

Lenny Rachitsky: So we're going to link to this GPT that you're talking about that people can try it out.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我们将链接到您正在谈论的这个 GPT，人们可以尝试一下。

And once you see it you're like, "Holy shit, I should just be doing this all the time," because you just get so many reps as a product builder.

一旦你看到它，你就会想，“天哪，我应该一直这样做，”因为作为产品构建者，你得到了很多代表。

Hilary Gridley: And we were talking about a similar one with understanding engineering benchmarks.

希拉里·格里德利：我们正在讨论一个类似的问题，即了解工程基准。

I don't have an engineering background, so this was really hard for me when I was moving into product, is just getting an instinct for what types of things tend to be easier or harder for engineering teams.

我没有工程背景，所以当我进入产品领域时，这对我来说真的很难，只是凭直觉了解哪些类型的事情对工程团队来说更容易或更困难。

And so we can have one similar that's saying, " Here's the scope that's being proposed.

因此，我们可以有一个类似的说法，“这是正在提议的范围。

If you had to t-shirt size this, which one would you choose and why?" And you can say, "Oh, this sounds, small or whatever." And it'll say, "Oh actually these types of integrations tend to be complex for these reasons.

如果你必须选择这个尺寸的 T 恤，你会选择哪一件，为什么？”你可以说，“哦，这听起来很小，或者其他什么。”它会说：“哦，实际上，由于这些原因，这些类型的集成往往很复杂。

So it's probably going to end up being more like a large."

所以它最终可能会变得更像一个大的。”

Hilary Gridley: And it doesn't have enough context to really inform you in the way that your tech stack at your company is.

希拉里·格里德利：它没有足够的背景信息来真正告知您公司的技术堆栈的情况。

Although I guess could build it and give it that information and then it would, that would be cool.

虽然我想可以构建它并为其提供信息，然后它就会完成，那会很酷。

You should do that.

你应该这样做。

But again, it's like you do that as a PM, you might get a chance to do that, I don't know, a couple times a week, maybe, maybe less often than that.

但同样，就像你作为产品经理那样做，你可能有机会这样做，我不知道，每周几次，也许，也许比这更少。

And when you have this little tool, you can do it infinity times.

当你拥有这个小工具时，你可以无限次地完成它。

You can spend an afternoon doing it.

你可以花一个下午的时间来做这件事。

And so again, both the speed of those loops and the number of those loops that you're able to get is just radically different with AI compared to just when they come up in the course of your job.

再说一遍，这些循环的速度和你能够获得的循环数量与人工智能相比，与你在工作过程中出现的情况截然不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think this is extremely cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这非常酷。

We're going to link to it.

我们将链接到它。

People should definitely play with this.

人们绝对应该玩这个。

Okay, I'm going to take us to two corners, recurring segments, of the podcast and then I want to talk about WHOOP before we get to a very exciting lightning round.

好的，我将带我们进入播客的两个角落，重复出现的片段，然后我想在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前谈谈 WHOOP。

So this is a new segment I'm trying out, I'm going to call it Pivotal Corner.

这是我正在尝试的一个新部分，我将其称为“关键角”。

And here's the question, what's the most pivotal moment in your career?

那么问题来了，你职业生涯中最关键的时刻是什么？

Hilary Gridley: I mean I think it was at my former company, at Big Health, when my former boss left the company and I started reporting to the CEO.

希拉里·格里德利：我的意思是，我认为是在我以前的公司 Big Health，当时我的前任老板离开了公司，我开始向首席执行官汇报。

And again, I think it was my first time working with a CEO so closely, and it just, definitely trial by fire.

再说一次，我认为这是我第一次与首席执行官如此密切地合作，这绝对是一次严峻的考验。

But it made me understand so many things that seemed like they didn't make sense to me before, when I was just in the rank and file of a big tech company earlier in my career.

但这让我明白了很多以前对我来说似乎毫无意义的事情，当时我只是在职业生涯的早期担任一家大型科技公司的普通员工。

You get in the room and you talk to these people and you're like, "Oh, this actually makes sense.

你走进房间，和这些人交谈，你会想，“哦，这确实有道理。

I understand why this person has come to these conclusions."

我理解为什么这个人会得出这些结论。”

Hilary Gridley: And some of it's understanding the pressure they're under.

希拉里·格里德利：其中一些是了解他们所面临的压力。

Some of it's understanding, again, the way they view the world.

其中一些又是理解他们看待世界的方式。

But I think that was, to get to our earlier point around the humility of understanding that maybe this person is right about something that I don't see and maybe I can start by...

但我认为，这是为了回到我们之前的观点，谦虚地理解，也许这个人对我没有看到的事情是正确的，也许我可以从......

If I start by giving them the benefit of the doubt, it is not only a nice thing to do, but it is also, it will help me understand why they're doing the things that they are.

如果我一开始就给予他们无罪推论，这不仅是一件好事，而且还有助于我理解他们为什么要做这些事情。

And I think I would've been so much less frustrated earlier in my career if I understood that instead of just being like, "Oh, this doesn't make any sense from where I'm sitting, so therefore it must not make any sense."

我想，如果我明白这一点，而不是只是说，“哦，从我现在的立场来看，这没有任何意义，所以它一定没有任何意义。”

Lenny Rachitsky: It's so cool that this connects back to your habit of doing this, having seen it, and being like, "Oh, I see, this is why..."

Lenny Rachitsky：这太酷了，这与你这样做的习惯、看到它后的感觉有关，“哦，我明白了，这就是为什么......”

Hilary Gridley: Yeah, I guess I hadn't realized.

希拉里·格里德利：是的，我想我还没有意识到。

Lenny Rachitsky: Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I could be wrong.

Lenny Rachitsky：也许我错了，也许我可能是错的。

Hilary Gridley: Well, I mean that's what it is.

希拉里·格里德利：嗯，我的意思是事实就是这样。

I feel like I've had so many of those times where I don't know, when I was growing up, I felt so confident in how I felt about everything.

我觉得我经历过很多我不知道的时光，在我成长的过程中，我对自己对一切的感受如此自信。

And then you get out there and you're just like, "Oh, I was missing some things." And after a while you're kind of like, "Okay, maybe I should approach these situations a little differently with the possibility that maybe I'm missing something."

然后你走出去，你就会想，“哦，我错过了一些东西。”过了一会儿，你会想，“好吧，也许我应该以不同的方式处理这些情况，因为我可能会错过一些东西。”

Lenny Rachitsky: So I actually asked your boss Kelvin, which is an awesome name by the way, Kelvin, about this moment.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我实际上向你的老板 Kelvin（顺便说一下，Kelvin，这是一个很棒的名字）询问了这一刻。

When I asked him what to ask you, and he brought this up actually, and here's the way, described it, "She may describe it as being thrown into the deep end or baptism by fire, but the reality is that she had the core skills and this was simply an opportunity for her to let those shine even more.

当我问他要问你什么的时候，他实际上提出了这个问题，是这样描述的，“她可能会把这描述为被扔进深渊或接受火的洗礼，但现实是她拥有核心技能，这只是她让这些技能更加闪耀的机会。

She was an incredible first principles thinker, quick to tune the framing of problems as she learned more context.

她是一位令人难以置信的第一性原则思想家，当她了解更多背景时，她能够迅速调整问题的框架。

It's a great example of luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity."

当准备遇到机会时，就会发生什么，这是运气的一个很好的例子。”

Hilary Gridley: Thanks Kelvin.

希拉里·格里德利：谢谢凯尔文。

That's really nice.

那真是太好了。

Lenny Rachitsky: He also said, "I wonder if she remembers how terrified she was now, because she absolutely knocked it out of the park and it felt like it was an inflection point that grew her confidence significantly."

莱尼·拉奇茨基：他还说，“我想知道她是否还记得她现在有多么害怕，因为她绝对把它从公园里敲出来了，感觉这是一个明显增强了她信心的转折点。”

Hilary Gridley: Oh, I was terrified.

希拉里·格里德利：哦，我很害怕。

Yeah.

是的。

Big time terrified.

大时间害怕了。

And then, I mean this is also what I was saying about why it's so important to be regimented about having these things outside of work that allow you to continue to thrive, even in the face of just utter feelings of failure, of, "I am not doing a good job, this is not going well.

然后，我的意思是，这也是我所说的为什么在工作之外控制这些事情如此重要，这些事情可以让你继续成长，即使面对彻底的失败感，“我做得不好，事情进展不顺利。

I don't know what I'm doing." A lot of it was that time.

我不知道我在做什么。”很多都是那个时候的事。

Kelvin actually gave me some great advice that, this is maybe kind of scary advice, but when I asked him what his advice for me with the time was, and he said, "Product leadership is the type of role where if you are not in control of the voices in your head, they will eat you alive."

凯尔文实际上给了我一些很好的建议，这可能是一种可怕的建议，但当我问他当时给我的建议是什么时，他说，“产品领导力是这样一种角色，如果你不能控制头脑中的声音，它们就会把你活活吃掉。”

Hilary Gridley: And I think it's right.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为这是对的。

As I said, it is so often this feeling like there is not a clear right answer and not even necessarily a good answer.

正如我所说，常常有这种感觉，好像没有一个明确的正确答案，甚至不一定是一个好的答案。

And everyone is looking to you for clarity and everyone is looking to you to make the right decisions and everyone sees the errors, or at least everyone can spot the flaws in whatever decision you make or whatever recommendation you make.

每个人都希望你能澄清问题，每个人都希望你做出正确的决定，每个人都看到错误，或者至少每个人都能发现你做出的任何决定或你提出的任何建议中的缺陷。

And as I said, every path forward has flaws that can be poked in it.

正如我所说，每一条前进的道路都有可能被戳破的缺陷。

And so understanding that the existence of potential ways to be criticized about something does not warrant criticism in a way that can, I think often result in a lot of negative self-talk for people.

因此，我认为，理解某件事存在潜在的批评方式并不值得批评，我认为这常常会导致人们产生很多消极的自言自语。

So yeah, I mean it had a tremendous impact on me.

是的，我的意思是它对我产生了巨大的影响。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting you have so much of these habits and skills you've built seem to, it's clear where they come from, from all these experiences that you had.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，你似乎拥有如此多的习惯和技能，很明显它们来自哪里，来自你拥有的所有这些经历。

Hilary Gridley: Well, and to the point of when you start talking to people and you start trying to build this mental model of how they think, that's exactly what you learn, is well, I can see how this person worked at this company at this time and I can see how this person had this kind of relationship with this other person.

希拉里·格里德利：嗯，当你开始与人们交谈并开始尝试建立这种他们如何思考的心理模型时，这正是你所学到的，很好，我可以看到这个人此时在这家公司是如何工作的，我可以看到这个人如何与另一个人建立这种关系。

And all of these things shape the way that we approach problems and the way that we try to just move through the world.

所有这些都塑造了我们处理问题的方式以及我们尝试在世界上移动的方式。

And it is understanding those types of things that allow you to understand how a person thinks.

正是了解这些类型的事情才能让你了解一个人的想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: I wonder if you could ask ChatGPT to build, or Claude to build, these mental models.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想知道你是否可以要求 ChatGPT 或 Claude 来构建这些心理模型。

Like, "Here's their LinkedIn, here's their bio, here's a few things, how do they see the world?"

比如，“这是他们的 LinkedIn，这是他们的简历，这是一些东西，他们如何看待世界？”

Hilary Gridley: I will admit that I have tried this.

希拉里·格里德利：我承认我已经尝试过了。

And I think it's a great idea.

我认为这是一个好主意。

I think it does help.

我认为这确实有帮助。

I have not gotten to a point where I'm comfortable sharing it with other people, nor have I told anyone that I have tried to do this for them, but I've certainly done it for myself.

我还没有达到可以与其他人分享的地步，也没有告诉任何人我曾尝试为他们这样做，但我确实为自己做到了。

And I think it would be helpful.

我认为这会有帮助。

Because you could say things, you could upload a doc or whatever and be like, "What are the three questions that this person's going to ask me about it?" And then you could be prepared for the questions that person's going to ask you and that's great.

因为你可以说一些话，你可以上传一份文档或其他什么东西，然后说：“这个人会问我这三个问题是什么？”然后你就可以为那个人会问你的问题做好准备，这很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: In this hypothetical example, what context do you share with this model to help it be good?

Lenny Rachitsky：在这个假设的例子中，您与这个模型有什么共同的背景来帮助它变得更好？

Hilary Gridley: Great question.

希拉里·格里德利：好问题。

Hypothetically, I told you that I take all these notes on, here's what this person said and here's how I interpret it, and LLMs are really good at pattern matching and sort of spotting the...

假设，我告诉过你我记下了所有这些笔记，这就是这个人所说的话，这就是我的解释，法学硕士非常擅长模式匹配和发现......

You could feed all of those in and just say, "Come up with the 10 criteria that this person is most likely to use to assess a possible recommendation or path forward," or, "Give me the top 10 ways that this person is likely to pick apart an argument or object to something," and you're going to get a good answer.

你可以把所有这些都填进去，然后说，“想出这个人最有可能用来评估可能的建议或前进道路的 10 个标准”，或者，“给我这个人最有可能驳斥争论或反对某事的 10 种方式”，你就会得到一个很好的答案。

Lenny Rachitsky: More reason to build this habit of taking notes and sharing with your team.

Lenny Rachitsky：有更多理由养成记笔记并与团队分享的习惯。

On the other hand, this might also be a good use case for Granola or something like that where you have all these meeting notes and you could just feed it, "Here's all the things Hilary said," and, "Oh, what is she probably going to say about this?"

另一方面，这也可能是格兰诺拉麦片或类似的东西的一个很好的用例，你有所有这些会议记录，你可以直接输入“这是希拉里所说的所有内容”，以及“哦，她对此可能会说什么？”

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, so cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，太酷了。

Okay, next corner, I'm going to take us to Fail Corner.

好的，下一个拐角，我要带我们去失败拐角。

And in Fail Corner, the idea here is people come on this podcast, they share all these wins and success, everything's up and to the right and amazing, but in reality things don't always go that smoothly.

在《失败角》中，这里的想法是人们来到这个播客，他们分享所有这些胜利和成功，一切都进展顺利，令人惊叹，但实际上事情并不总是那么顺利。

So the question is, is there a story you could share of failure in your career where things didn't go the way you hoped and what you learned from that experience?

那么问题是，您是否可以分享一个关于您职业生涯中失败的故事，即事情没有按照您希望的方式发展，以及您从这次经历中学到了什么？

Hilary Gridley: I mean I think the one that probably looms largest in my mind is, I mentioned this depression therapeutic that I spent about a year working on, and ultimately the company ended up acquiring a different depression therapeutic.

希拉里·格里德利：我的意思是，我认为最让我印象深刻的是，我提到了我花了大约一年时间研究的抑郁症治疗方法，最终该公司最终获得了一种不同的抑郁症治疗方法。

And we kind of ended up merging the two of them.

我们最终将它们两者合并了。

And a lot of the stuff that we had initially built that I had really loved about this product we were working on didn't really ever end up seeing the light of day beyond the kind of testing that we had done around it.

我们最初构建的很多东西，我非常喜欢我们正在开发的这个产品，除了我们围绕它所做的测试之外，最终并没有真​​正看到曙光。

And it was heartbreaking because I wish this product existed.

这令人心碎，因为我希望这个产品存在。

I look at it and I'm like, "This was a great product and we put so much heart and soul into it."

我看着它，心想，“这是一个很棒的产品，我们投入了很多心血。”

Hilary Gridley: And I think the lesson that I learned from that is, I think there's always a shot clock.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为我从中学到的教训是，我认为总有一个进攻时间。

When you're working, especially on a zero to one product, I think it can be very easy to feel like you have the luxury of time, of just like, we got to take the time to figure this out and get it right and that's what's most important.

当你工作时，尤其是在零到一的产品上，我认为你很容易感觉自己有充裕的时间，就像我们必须花时间弄清楚这一点并把它做好，这才是最重要的。

But the sort of build versus buy question is always live and it's always fair.

但构建与购买的问题始终存在，而且总是公平的。

And whether you want to admit it, if you're the one working on it, and you probably don't, I didn't want to admit this, there is a point at which it makes more sense for the company.

无论你是否愿意承认这一点，如果你是那个正在从事这项工作的人，而且你可能不会，我不想承认这一点，但在某个时刻，这对公司来说更有意义。

If it is taking too long to develop something and there is a solution out there that works, it is the right decision to acquire that.

如果开发某些东西需要很长时间，并且有一个可行的解决方案，那么购买它就是正确的决定。

Hilary Gridley: I mean I worked at Dropbox where I saw this happen all the time where we would acquire products that other teams internally had been working on and it's just like, it's heartbreaking when it happens.

Hilary Gridley：我的意思是，我在 Dropbox 工作，我经常看到这种情况发生，我们会购买其他团队内部一直在开发的产品，当这种情况发生时，真是令人心碎。

But I think there's an urgency that that has instilled in me that I think is actually really good and healthy, especially again working in this era where there is kind of this AI arms race and everyone's trying to move really quickly of, yeah, there's always a shot clock.

但我认为这给我灌输了一种紧迫感，我认为这实际上是非常好的和健康的，尤其是在这个人工智能军备竞赛的时代再次工作，每个人都试图快速行动，是的，总是有一个射击时钟。

And you might not be aware of it, but it's there, and you got to build your heart out and you got to ship and you got to get things out because at any time, that clock might run out.

你可能没有意识到它，但它就在那里，你必须全力以赴，你必须发货，你必须把东西拿出来，因为任何时候，那个时钟都可能耗尽。

Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of shot clock, not necessarily, but I want to spend a little time on WHOOP, you guys just launched something that feels like a really big deal.

Lenny Rachitsky：说到进攻时钟，不一定，但我想花一点时间在 WHOOP 上，你们刚刚推出了一些感觉非常重要的东西。

I'm excited.

我很兴奋。

That's the reason I got it.

这就是我得到它的原因。

There's all these really cool new features.

有所有这些非常酷的新功能。

I think you call it WHOOP 5.0.

我想你称之为 WHOOP 5.0。

What should people know?

人们应该知道什么？

What's the newest, coolest thing that's happening with WHOOP?

WHOOP 发生的最新、最酷的事情是什么？

Hilary Gridley: Yeah, I'm really excited you got it.

希拉里·格里德利：是的，我真的很高兴你能得到它。

I know you tried it before and...

我知道你之前尝试过并且...

Hilary Gridley: People who have tried WHOOP in the past maybe felt like it was very focused on elite athletes and that is...

希拉里·格里德利：过去尝试过 WHOOP 的人可能会觉得它非常关注精英运动员，那就是……

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that's exactly what I felt.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这正是我的感受。

Hilary Gridley: Sort of the lifeblood of the company.

希拉里·格里德利：可以说是公司的命脉。

And I think what we've done with our new experience is we've really built something that can help everyone be healthier and live better.

我认为我们通过新体验所做的事情是，我们确实建立了一些可以帮助每个人变得更健康、生活得更好的东西。

I would say we're no longer just for elite athletes.

我想说我们不再只适合精英运动员。

We're really now a health and performance companion for anybody who wants to feel their best.

对于任何想要感觉最好的人来说，我们现在确实是一个健康和表现的伴侣。

Hilary Gridley: For the first time in our company's history, we've updated our mission, so we're now saying that WHOOP exists to unlock human performance and health span.

希拉里·格里德利：在我们公司的历史上，我们第一次更新了我们的使命，所以我们现在说 WHOOP 的存在是为了解锁人类的表现和健康寿命。

And health span I think is, and I mentioned earlier this feature I'm really excited about, because I do think it is kind of the most powerful version of a longevity-type feature I have seen because it is so focused on your behaviors and your habits today.

我认为健康跨度是，我之前提到过这个功能我真的很兴奋，因为我确实认为它是我见过的长寿型功能的最强大版本，因为它非常关注您今天的行为和习惯。

Hilary Gridley: And we built it to be super, super actionable.

希拉里·格里德利：我们把它打造得超级非常具有可操作性。

So rather than just giving you a score that you're kind of like, "Okay, that's nice," if you start sleeping even 20 minutes more, 30 minutes more tonight, you're going to see how that changes your case of aging.

因此，如果你今晚开始多睡 20 分钟、30 分钟，而不是仅仅给你一个分数，让你觉得“好吧，这很好”，你就会看到这如何改变你的衰老情况。

You're going to see how that changes your WHOOP age.

您将看到这如何改变您的 WHOOP 年龄。

And I think that, as I mentioned earlier, I think is really rewarding.

我认为，正如我之前提到的，我认为这确实是有益的。

Hilary Gridley: We also have a lot of personalized coaching through our AI in terms of actions that you can take to improve your WHOOP age, to improve your sleep, to feel better, and it's all part of our broader aim to make health more actionable and accessible.

希拉里·格里德利（Hilary Gridley）：我们还通过人工智能提供大量个性化指导，帮助您采取行动来提高 WHOOP 年龄、改善睡眠、感觉更好，而这都是我们更广泛目标的一部分，即让健康变得更可行、更容易获得。

I think one thing I'm really excited about is we have a bunch of new women's health features, so we have hormonal insights with improved menstrual cycle tracking.

我认为我真正兴奋的一件事是我们拥有一系列新的女性健康功能，因此我们可以通过改进的月经周期跟踪来了解荷尔蒙。

I'm actually pregnant and I-

我实际上怀孕了而且我-

Lenny Rachitsky: What?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：什么？

I didn't know that.

我不知道。

That's a big announcement.

这是一个重大公告。

Wow.

哇。

Congratulations Hilary.

恭喜希拉里。

That's so exciting.

太令人兴奋了。

Hilary Gridley: But actually part of how I found out I was pregnant was in seeing my WHOOP data.

希拉里·格里德利：但实际上，我发现自己怀孕的部分原因是查看我的 WHOOP 数据。

Hilary Gridley: In my WHOOP data, which is pretty remarkable.

希拉里·格里德利：在我的 WHOOP 数据中，这是非常了不起的。

Hilary Gridley: And the way that we have this cycle tracking now, you can see the way that your different, your HRV, your resting heart rate, things like that, that's your heart rate variability and your resting heart rate, fluctuates throughout different times of your cycle.

希拉里·格里德利：我们现在进行周期跟踪的方式，您可以看到您的不同之处，您的 HRV，您的静息心率，诸如此类的东西，即您的心率变异性和您的静息心率，在周期的不同时间波动。

And even in the time leading up to that, I had a not straightforward pregnancy journey, and having these tools to really understand what was going on in my body was tremendously helpful and tremendously empowering for me and honestly really has changed my life.

即使在这之前，我也经历了一段并不简单的怀孕之旅，拥有这些工具来真正了解我的身体状况对我来说非常有帮助，并且赋予了我巨大的力量，老实说，它确实改变了我的生活。

So I'm really excited about that.

所以我对此感到非常兴奋。

Hilary Gridley: We have a lot of great new heart health features.

希拉里·格里德利：我们有很多很棒的新的心脏健康功能。

We have a heart health screener with blood pressure insights and ECG.

我们有一个心脏健康筛查仪，具有血压洞察和心电图功能。

That's really cool.

这真的很酷。

We got a lot of great stuff cooking.

我们烹饪了很多很棒的东西。

So even if you tried WHOOP in the past and thought it wasn't for you, I think the new experience is a real upgrade and it's something that I'm deeply proud of having worked on and really excited to have out in the world.

因此，即使您过去尝试过 WHOOP 并且认为它不适合您，我认为新体验是一次真正的升级，这是我为自己的工作深感自豪的事情，并且非常高兴能在世界上拥有它。

Lenny Rachitsky: I am genuinely very excited about this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我真的对此感到非常兴奋。

You could do, you said blood pressure and VO2 max?

你可以做，你说血压和最大摄氧量？

Lenny Rachitsky: And I know the battery is even longer too.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道电池也更长。

There's just so much stuff.

有这么多东西。

Hilary Gridley: Oh, we have a 14 day battery life.

Hilary Gridley：哦，我们的电池续航时间为 14 天。

I didn't even say.

我什至没有说。

We have these beautiful new leather bands which I love.

我们有这些漂亮的新皮革表带，我很喜欢。

Hilary Gridley: Okay.

希拉里·格里德利：好的。

14 day battery's life is insane.

14天的电池寿命太疯狂了。

I'm going on vacation tomorrow and I don't even need to bring a charger.

明天我要去度假，我什至不需要带充电器。

This is fantastic.

这太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天啊。

This sounds like a WHOOP ad, but I'm very excited about this.

这听起来像是一个 WHOOP 广告，但我对此感到非常兴奋。

Hilary Gridley: I'll say one more thing, which is we've opened a wait list for Advanced Labs and so pretty soon you're going to be able to have comprehensive lab work in the app, and I think we talk about the future of health, of having control of all of your health data in one place, and then being able to not just sort of find the signal in it and understand how your sleep is impacting your metabolic health or things like that.

希拉里·格里德利：我还要说一件事，那就是我们已经开放了高级实验室的等待名单，所以很快你就可以在应用程序中进行全面的实验室工作，我认为我们谈论健康的未来，在一个地方控制你的所有健康数据，然后不仅能够找到其中的信号并了解你的睡眠如何影响你的代谢健康或类似的事情。

But again, get really actionable coaching on actions that you can take to feel better and be your healthiest and just pushing the limits of all the data that we're pulling into the WHOOP ecosystem.

但再次强调，获得真正可行的指导，指导您采取哪些行动，让您感觉更好、最健康，并突破我们引入 WHOOP 生态系统的所有数据的极限。

So really excited about that too.

对此我也非常兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm hoping the WHOOP can actually take my blood and labs.

Lenny Rachitsky：我希望 WHOOP 能够真正拿走我的血液和实验室。

Is that where this is going?

这就是事情的发展方向吗？

Because that'd be so convenient.

因为那样就很方便了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

It'd be weird but also awesome.

这会很奇怪，但也很棒。

I don't have to go anywhere to do that.

我不需要去任何地方就能做到这一点。

Hilary, we covered so much ground.

希拉里，我们涵盖了很多领域。

Before we get to a very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you wanted to touch on?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想谈的吗？

Anything else that we haven't covered that you think, or last nugget you wanted to leave listeners with?

您认为我们还没有涵盖的其他内容，或者您​​想留给听众的最后一个金块？

Hilary Gridley: I don't think so.

希拉里·格里德利：我不这么认为。

I feel like we covered everything

我觉得我们涵盖了一切

Lenny Rachitsky: We did.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们做到了。

We covered so much.

我们涵盖了这么多。

In the best way possible.

以尽可能最好的方式。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最常向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Hilary Gridley: Buddy, you can't call something a lightning round and then ask me about books.

希拉里·格里德利：伙计，你不能把某件事称为闪电般的事情，然后问我有关书籍的事情。

We could go for a whole other podcast where I'm like...

我们可以去听另一个播客，我想……

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's recreate a time box for it.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们为它重新创建一个时间框。

Hilary Gridley: Okay, I'm going to, hearing what I'm going to say, I'm going to go full fiction on this.

希拉里·格里德利：好吧，听听我要说的话，我将对此进行完全虚构。

I'm going to say if you're going to read a book, don't bother reading a business book.

我想说的是，如果你要读一本书，就不要读商业书籍。

Even the business books I love the most that shaped how I think I'm like, "I kind of got the gist of them part way through," but fiction, I'm like, everybody should read East of Eden by John Steinbeck and everybody should read The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway, which is my comfort book.

即使是我最喜欢的商业书籍，它们塑造了我的想法，“我半途就明白了它们的要点”，但小说，我想，每个人都应该读约翰·斯坦贝克的《伊甸园之东》，每个人都应该读欧内斯特·海明威的《太阳照常升起》，这是我的安慰书。

Hilary Gridley: I think what I love about fiction is it teaches you how to sit inside tension.

希拉里·格里德利：我认为我喜欢小说的原因是它教你如何承受紧张。

I think so much of working in product is, as I said, you're in this fog and you just have to provide clarity and you have to be really good at providing structure to ambiguous things and finding the way forward and to succeed at the job, you have to be able to do that.

我认为，正如我所说，产品工作的大部分内容是，你处于迷雾之中，你只需要提供清晰度，你必须非常善于为模糊的事物提供结构，找到前进的方向并在工作中取得成功，你必须能够做到这一点。

But I also think to succeed as a human in the job, you have to be able to sit in the mess and sit in the ambiguity.

但我也认为，作为一个人，要想在工作中取得成功，你必须能够忍受混乱和模棱两可的情况。

John Keats, the poet, talks about this concept of negative capability, which is the ability to remain in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts without any irritable reaching after fact and reason.

诗人约翰·济慈（John Keats）谈到了消极能力的概念，即保持不确定性、神秘感和怀疑的能力，而不急躁地追求事实和理性。

And I love that.

我喜欢这样。

Lenny Rachitsky: That sounds like a perfect quote for all PMs to...

Lenny Rachitsky：这听起来像是所有 PM 的完美引言……

Hilary Gridley: Exactly.

希拉里·格里德利：没错。

And you got to be both, right.

你必须两者兼而有之，对吧。

Again, fiction, I love dualities.

再说一遍，小说，我喜欢二元性。

There's a lot of dualities in fiction, a lot of warring forces within people that can be so driving for people but can also be the source of so much anguish.

小说中有很多二元性，人们内心有很多交战的力量，这些力量可以如此推动人们，但也可能成为如此多痛苦的根源。

I think it is important to live in both.

我认为两者都生活很重要。

In the, "I'm going to break down this problem, I'm going to structure it, I'm going to get out, but also I'm going to sit here and I'm going to accept that there is no right answer and there is no perfect answer." And that's life.

在其中，“我要分解这个问题，我要构建它，我要离开，但我也要坐在这里，我要接受没有正确答案，也没有完美答案。”这就是生活。

You don't learn that from...

你不是从...学来的

To the extent that you learn that from a book at all, which maybe you don't, but I think you can learn it in fiction.

就你从书本中学到的程度而言，也许你没有，但我认为你可以在小说中学到它。

Lenny Rachitsky: I don't know how you feel about this book.

Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道你对这本书有何感想。

I think you'll be proud of me.

我想你会为我感到骄傲。

I'm reading Anna Karenina right now.

我现在正在读《安娜·卡列尼娜》。

Hilary Gridley: Oh, literally that's the book that I'm bringing on vacation with me tomorrow.

希拉里·格里德利：哦，从字面上看，这就是我明天度假时要带的书。

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

Me neither.

我也不。

Okay, we'll exchange some notes.

好的，我们交换一些笔记。

It's very long I'm realizing.

我意识到这已经很长了。

Because I'm reading on the Kindle, and only 12%.

因为我在Kindle上看书，只有12%。

Okay.

好的。

Hilary Gridley: Now I really have to read it.

希拉里·格里德利：现在我真的必须读一下它。

I was kind of wavering.

我有点犹豫不决。

I was like, "Is this really what I'm going to want to read when I'm sitting by the pool?" But no, I've committed.

我当时想，“当我坐在泳池边时，这真的是我想读的书吗？”但不，我已经承诺了。

Lenny Rachitsky: You got to do it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：你必须这么做。

Another guest recommended it and I saw it on some lists recently and then like, "Oh, I should read that." So yeah.

另一位客人推荐了它，我最近在一些清单上看到了它，然后喜欢，“哦，我应该读一下。”所以是的。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

Next question.

下一个问题。

Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Hilary Gridley: I've been watching The Rehearsal with Nathan Fielder.

希拉里·格里德利：我一直在和内森·菲尔德一起观看《排练》。

Have you seen this show?

你看过这个节目吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: I saw the first season.

Lenny Rachitsky：我看了第一季。

I've been a huge fan of Nathan Fielder for so long.

长期以来，我一直是内森·菲尔德的忠实粉丝。

I don't know if you saw his previous thing that he did, I forget what it's called.

不知道你有没有看过他之前做的事情，我忘了叫什么了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

He's so hilarious and such a genius.

他太搞笑了，太天才了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Nathan for You?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：内森适合你吗？

Oh my God.

我的天啊。

I haven't seen the new season, no.

新一季我还没看，没有。

Hilary Gridley: The man is a freaking genius.

希拉里·格里德利：这个人是个天才。

Just when I thought that I had a good sense of all the human emotions that exist out there, I watch the show and I feel things that I'm like, I feel like 10 different things.

正当我以为我对人类存在的所有情感有很好的感觉时，我观看了这个节目，我感受到了我喜欢的东西，我感觉到了 10 种不同的东西。

Hilary Gridley: And I'm like, "I have no words for any of the things that I'm feeling right now." It's weird.

希拉里·格里德利：我想，“我无法用言语来形容我现在的感受。”很奇怪。

It's weird stuff, but I'm enjoying it.

这很奇怪，但我很享受。

Lenny Rachitsky: I got to watch it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我必须看它。

Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really enjoyed?

您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Other than the WHOOP.

除了 WHOOP 之外。

Hilary Gridley: I love my Zwift.

希拉里·格里德利：我爱我的 Zwift。

It's like a program that you can hook up a smart trainer to for an indoor cycling situation.

这就像一个程序，您可以将智能教练连接到室内骑行环境中。

And you kind of bike around like you're in Mario Kart and you're sort of in these virtual worlds biking with other people.

你就像在《马里奥赛车》中一样骑自行车，就像在这些虚拟世界中与其他人一起骑自行车一样。

It's I think for very serious cyclists, I'm not a very serious cyclist.

我认为对于非常认真的自行车手来说，我不是一个非常认真的自行车手。

For me, it's been amazing as somebody who actually really struggles to find time to exercise.

对我来说，作为一个真正很难找到时间锻炼的人，这真是太棒了。

Hilary Gridley: They have, speak of reward loops, they have one of the most amazing reward loops, which is you're biking along and you get into this track and a ghost of your previous self breaks out from you and starts racing alongside you at your personal best for that track.

希拉里·格里德利：说到奖励循环，他们有最令人惊奇的奖励循环之一，那就是你骑着自行车，进入这条赛道，你以前的自我的幽灵从你身上爆发出来，开始与你一起在这条赛道上以你个人最好的成绩比赛。

And you have to beat your personal self, or you have to beat this ghost version of yourself.

你必须打败你自己，或者你必须打败这个幽灵版本的自己。

And nothing has ever motivated me more in my life than past Hilary being like, "I'm coming for you." And I'm like...

在我的生活中，没有什么比过去希拉里的“我来找你了”更能激励我。而我就像...

I don't get that competitive with other people, but past Hilary comes for me and I'm like, "This, I can't let happen." So I think it's a great product.

我不会与其他人竞争，但过去的希拉里来找我，我想，“我不能让这种情况发生。”所以我认为这是一个很棒的产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm thinking about how to use that, I don't know, mode for other use cases, like the ghost version of something to motivate you essentially.

Lenny Rachitsky：我正在考虑如何将这种（我不知道）模式用于其他用例，例如从本质上激励你的某些东西的幽灵版本。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Hilary Gridley: I've been in so many product meetings where I'm like, "Can we make a ghost version of yourself?"

希拉里·格里德利（Hilary Gridley）：我参加过很多次产品会议，每次我都会想，“我们可以制作一个幽灵版的你自己吗？”

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

They're like, "Shut up about the ghost." Okay, amazing.

他们就像是，“对鬼魂闭嘴。”好吧，太棒了。

Okay, two more questions.

好吧，还有两个问题。

Do you have a life motto that you often come back to, find useful in work or in life?

您有没有经常回顾并认为在工作或生活中有用的人生格言？

Hilary Gridley: I'll say one that's been top of mind for me recently, because I was talking about the high brow fiction.

希拉里·格里德利：我要说的是我最近最关心的一个问题，因为我正在谈论高雅小说。

I also have to go low brow.

我也必须低调。

I saw this clip of Beavis and Butthead online recently where they were watching a music video for Creep by Radiohead.

我最近在网上看到了 Beavis 和 Butthead 的这段视频，他们正在观看 Radiohead 的 Creep 音乐视频。

And it starts off really slow and one of them, I think maybe Butthead, is like, "Oh, this sucks." And then the chorus comes and it starts getting all hyped and they're like, "Oh, this rocks, this rocks." And then, I'm not going to do my Beavis and Butthead impression.

一开始真的很慢，其中一个，我想也许是巴特海德，就像，“哦，这太糟糕了。”然后副歌来了，大家开始大肆宣传，他们就像是，“哦，这太棒了，这太棒了。”然后，我不会做我的比维斯和巴特海德印象。

So then it gets back to the slow part and they're like, "Oh wait, this sucks again." And then Butthead is like, "Why don't they just play the cool part the entire time?" And Beavis is like, "Because if they didn't have the part of the song that sucked, the cool part wouldn't be as cool."

然后又回到缓慢的部分，他们会说，“哦等等，这又糟糕了。”然后巴特黑德就说，“为什么他们不一直扮演很酷的角色呢？”比维斯说，“因为如果他们没有歌曲中糟糕的部分，那么酷的部分就不会那么酷。”

Hilary Gridley: And I was like, "That is so profound." That is what life is all about, is just if it didn't have the parts that sucked, the cool parts wouldn't be as cool.

希拉里·格里德利：我当时想，“这太深刻了。”这就是生活的全部意义，只是如果它没有那些糟糕的部分，那么酷的部分就不会那么酷。

And we're always chasing the cool parts.

我们总是在追逐最酷的部分。

We want it all to be the cool parts, but it can't.

我们希望这一切都是很酷的部分，但事实并非如此。

So thank you Beavis and Butthead.

谢谢比维斯和巴特海德。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you Beavis and Butthead.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢谢比维斯和巴特海德。

Okay, final question.

好的，最后一个问题。

I love that you're talking about fiction books.

我喜欢你谈论小说。

This is where my question was going to go.

这就是我要问的问题。

What's a fiction book that most impacted your product building approach or career or the way you think about product?

对您的产品构建方法或职业生涯或您对产品的思考方式影响最大的小说书是什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。

Even better.

甚至更好。

Poem, extra credit.

诗，加分。

Hilary Gridley: There's a poem by Derek Walcott about, it's called Sea Grapes, and it's about Odysseus, and he talks about Odysseus being driven by the ancient war between obsession and responsibility.

希拉里·格里德利：德里克·沃尔科特有一首诗，名叫《海葡萄》，是关于奥德修斯的，他谈到奥德修斯被痴迷与责任之间的古代战争所驱使。

And I read that line when I was 18 years old and it has always stuck with me.

我在 18 岁时读到了这句话，它一直萦绕在我的心头。

And I sort of mentioned earlier, I think about these dualities that drive us.

我之前提到过，我想到了驱动我们的这些二元性。

And I think as a product person, I always feel like I'm living between these two, the obsession and the responsibility.

我认为作为一名产品人员，我总是感觉自己生活在痴迷和责任这两者之间。

I want to go so deep on this and I want to spend as much time as I possibly can just sorting every little piece out.

我想深入研究这个问题，我想花尽可能多的时间来整理每一个小片段。

Hilary Gridley: But we live in a society, we exist in a business.

希拉里·格里德利：但我们生活在一个社会中，我们存在于一个企业中。

I am trying to create value for shareholders and trying to bring these two things together, I feel like a, has been the kind of defining struggle of my career, I think of many people's careers, is how you have something that you feel like you can really obsess over and have that flow over, or have that flow when you're working on.

我正在努力为股东创造价值，并试图将这两件事结合在一起，我觉得，这一直是我职业生涯中的一种决定性的斗争，我认为很多人的职业生涯，就是你如何拥有一些你觉得你可以真正痴迷的东西，并让这种流动过去，或者当你工作时拥有这种流动。

But then it's got to kind of work in this broader system as well.

但它也必须在这个更广泛的系统中发挥作用。

And I think that's sort of been the thing that I think of as the guiding post for what I want to do with my career and with my life.

我认为这就是我认为我想要在职业生涯和生活中做的事情的指导方针。

So I think it's got to be Derek Walcott.

所以我认为一定是德里克·沃尔科特。

Lenny Rachitsky: What a beautiful way to end it.

Lenny Rachitsky：多么美妙的结束方式啊。

Hilary, two final questions.

希拉里，最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, maybe follow up on stuff that you talked about?

如果人们想要联系您，或者想跟进您谈论的事情，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Hilary Gridley: Great, thank you.

希拉里·格里德利：太好了，谢谢。

So as I mentioned, I have a newsletter, it's hils.substack.com.

正如我提到的，我有一份时事通讯，它是 hils.substack.com。

That's hils.substack.com.

那是 hils.substack.com。

I'm also teaching a Maven class on being a super manager with AI.

我还在教授 Maven 课程，讲述如何利用人工智能成为超级经理。

So if you were listening to all this and you were like, "Oh Hilary, that sounds so great, but I don't have time for any of that.

所以，如果你听到这一切，你会想，“哦希拉里，这听起来很棒，但我没有时间做这些。

How do you have time for all that?" Honestly, hyper-leveraging myself with AI has been a big part of how I find time to do any of this stuff.

你怎么有时间做这些事？”老实说，利用人工智能来充分利用自己是我找到时间做这些事情的一个重要部分。

And so I share a bunch about how I do that, how I use AI as a manager, building on a lot of the stuff that I shared on Claire's podcast as well, How I AI.

因此，我分享了很多关于我是如何做到这一点的，以及我如何使用人工智能作为经理，这些内容都是建立在我在克莱尔的播客上分享的很多内容的基础上的，我如何人工智能。

So you can find me on Maven there.

所以你可以在 Maven 上找到我。

We've got a couple of cohorts coming up.

我们有几个队列即将出现。

Hilary Gridley: And then, yeah, I encourage everyone to try out WHOOP, you can get a free month on me at join.whoop.com/hilary, that's Hilary with one L.

希拉里·格里德利：然后，是的，我鼓励每个人都尝试 WHOOP，您可以在 join.whoop.com/hilary 上免费获得一个月的时间，这是希拉里和一个 L。

And you can post at me or tweet at me on X and let me know what you think of it.

您可以在 X 上向我发帖或发推文，让我知道您对此的看法。

And I would love everyone's feedback because we're really excited about it.

我很高兴收到每个人的反馈，因为我们对此感到非常兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: As you were talking, I looked up your course just for make sure people can find it.

Lenny Rachitsky：当你说话的时候，我查了你的课程只是为了确保人们能找到它。

So you go to maven.com, you just search for Hilary Gridley and you'll find it.

因此，您访问 maven.com，只需搜索 Hilary Gridley，您就会找到它。

Hilary Gridley: Yep.

希拉里·格里德利：是的。

And you can also, I realize that if you Google super manager, you will find me.

你也可以，我意识到如果你谷歌超级经理，你会找到我。

Hilary Gridley: So that is my new claim to fame.

希拉里·格里德利：这就是我新的成名之路。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh my God, that's so great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天啊，那太棒了。

4.9 stars.

4.9星。

Holy moly.

圣钼。

There we go.

我们开始吧。

Okay, Hilary, thank you so much.

好的，希拉里，非常感谢你。

This was incredible.

这太不可思议了。

Covered everything I was hoping to, this was everything I wanted it to be.

涵盖了我所希望的一切，这就是我想要的一切。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Hilary Gridley: Thank you.

希拉里·格里德利：谢谢。

Thank you for having me.

谢谢你有我。

This was so fun.

这太有趣了。

So fun.

太有趣了。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。