The ultimate guide to adding a PLG motion | Hila Qu (Reforge, GitLab)

Hila Qu: ...

曲海拉：……

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。

Always say is actually fundamentally DLG, data led growth.

总说其实根本上就是DLG，数据带动增长。

So when you give away your free product, what you want to get in exchange are two things.

因此，当您赠送免费产品时，您想要交换的有两件事。

One is a broader reach because free product spread itself is lower barrier to entry.

一是覆盖范围更广，因为免费产品传播本身就降低了进入门槛。

Two, you want to understand you usage behavior of those free users, which features do they use and which features kind of correlates with a higher conversion rate, retention rate, all of that.

第二，您想要了解这些免费用户的使用行为，他们使用哪些功能以及哪些功能与更高的转化率、保留率等相关。

If you don't have a foundation of data and understanding of how to analyze those data, you are giving a way of free product for nothing.

如果您没有数据基础并且不了解如何分析这些数据，那么您就白白提供了一种免费产品。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在其中采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。

Today my guest is Hila Qu.

今天我的嘉宾是曲海拉。

I've heard some listeners have been doing listening parties with this podcast where their team listens to an episode all at the same time over Zoom and shares their insights and lessons in a shared chat.

我听说一些听众一直在通过这个播客举办聆听聚会，他们的团队通过 Zoom 同时收听一集，并在共享聊天中分享他们的见解和经验教训。

And I would say that this episode is a great candidate for that.

我想说这一集是一个很好的候选者。

It's incredibly packed with advice on how to start and optimize your product led growth motion.

其中包含有关如何启动和优化以产品为主导的增长动力的建议。

We talk through common pitfalls that you probably run into or to get started, feel us favorite tools, what you recommends for an initial PLG oriented team, how to audit your existing funnel, plus tangents on how to improve your activation and retention and some foundational overviews of product like growth and some of the core concepts associated with it.

我们讨论您可能遇到或开始使用的常见陷阱，感受我们最喜欢的工具，您为最初的面向 PLG 的团队推荐什么，如何审核您现有的漏斗，以及如何提高您的激活和保留的切线以及产品的一些基本概述，例如增长以及与之相关的一些核心概念。

Lenny: Like I say at the end of the episode, this episode delivers tens of thousands of dollars in value.

莱尼：就像我在本集结尾所说的那样，这一集带来了数万美元的价值。

Something you won't find for free anywhere else.

您在其他地方找不到免费的东西。

I am really excited to bring it to you.

我真的很高兴能把它带给你。

With that, I bring you Hila Qu after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 Hila Qu。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Amplitude.

Lenny：这一集是 Amplitude 为您带来的。

If you're setting up your analytics stack but not using Amplitude, what are you doing?

如果您正在设置分析堆栈但不使用 Amplitude，那么您在做什么？

Anyone can sell you analytics while Amplitude unlocks the power of your product and guide you every step of the way.

任何人都可以向您出售分析数据，而 Amplitude 则可以释放您产品的力量并指导您完成每一步。

Get the right data, ask the right questions, get the right answers, and make growth happen.

获取正确的数据，提出正确的问题，获得正确的答案，并实现增长。

To get started with Amplitude for free, visit amplitude.com.

要免费开始使用 Amplitude，请访问amplitude.com。

Amplitude, power to your products.

为您的产品带来幅度和力量。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Miro and online collaborative whiteboard that's designed specifically for teens like yours.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 Miro 和专门为像您这样的青少年设计的在线协作白板为您带来的。

I have a quick request, head on over to my Miro board at miro.com/Lenny and let me know which guests you'd want me to have on this year.

我有一个简短的请求，请前往 miro.com/Lenny 上的 Miro 董事会，让我知道您今年希望我邀请哪些嘉宾。

I've already gotten a bunch of great suggestions, which you'll see when you go there, so just keep it coming.

我已经收到了很多很好的建议，当你去那里时你会看到这些建议，所以请继续提供。

And while you're on the Miro board, I encourage you to play around with the tool.

当您在 Miro 板上时，我鼓励您尝试使用该工具。

It's a great shared space to capture ideas, get feedback, and collaborate with your colleagues on anything that you're working on.

这是一个很棒的共享空间，可以用来捕捉想法、获取反馈以及与同事就您正在处理的任何事情进行协作。

Lenny: For example, with Miro, you can plan out next quarter's entire product strategy.

Lenny：比如说，有了Miro，你就可以规划出下个季度的整个产品策略。

You can start by brainstorming, using sticky notes, live reactions, a voting tool, even an estimation app to scope out your team's sprints.

您可以从集思广益开始，使用便利贴、实时反应、投票工具，甚至估算应用程序来确定团队的冲刺范围。

Then your whole distributed team can come together around wire frames, dry ideas with a pen tool, and then put full mocks right into the Miro board and with one of Miro's ready-made templates, you can go from discovery and research to product roadmaps to customer journey flows to final mocks, all the aim Miro.

然后，您的整个分布式团队可以围绕线框聚集在一起，使用钢笔工具干燥想法，然后将完整的模拟直接放入 Miro 板中，并使用 Miro 的现成模板之一，您可以从发现和研究到产品路线图，到客户旅程流程，再到最终模拟，所有这些都是 Miro 的目标。

Head on over to miro.com/Lenny to leave your suggestions.

请前往 miro.com/Lenny 留下您的建议。

That's M-I-R-O.com/Lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O.com/Lenny。

Hila Qu: Thank you Lenny for having me.

Hila Qu：谢谢 Lenny 邀请我。

I'm so excited.

我太激动了。

Lenny: I'm excited as well.

莱尼：我也很兴奋。

I don't know if you know this, but you have the very unique distinction of having two posts in my top 25 most read post of all time in my newsletter, which are the two parts of your series on how to add a product led growth motion.

我不知道你是否知道这一点，但你有一个非常独特的区别，那就是在我的新闻通讯中有史以来阅读量最高的 25 篇文章中有两篇文章，这是你的系列中关于如何添加产品主导的增长动议的两个部分。

And so I'm really excited to dig into product led growth and help more people be successful product led growth.

因此，我很高兴能够深入研究产品主导型增长并帮助更多的人实现产品主导型增长的成功。

Hila Qu: Awesome.

曲海拉：太棒了。

I should have made it three posts, three part.

我应该把它写成三篇文章，三部分。

Lenny: I like that ambition.

莱尼：我喜欢这种野心。

There's always more.

总是有更多。

Yeah.

是的。

Well I think the next milestone is get into the top 10, get two into the top 10.

嗯，我认为下一个里程碑是进入前十名，两名进入前十名。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Maybe this podcast will...

也许这个播客会...

Oh, okay.

哦，好吧。

This podcast will be in the feed of the newsletter, so maybe we'll get there.

这个播客将出现在时事通讯中，所以也许我们会到达那里。

No pressure.

没有压力。

No pressure.

没有压力。

One question I wanted to ask you is anything come out of writing those guest posts?

我想问你的一个问题是，写这些客座帖子有什么收获吗？

Has anything good happened as a result?

结果有什么好事发生吗？

Hila Qu: I always take a very long-term view for writing.

曲海拉：我写作时总是抱有很长远的眼光。

I enjoy writing myself.

我喜欢自己写作。

Spend actually four months on that one.

实际上花了四个月的时间。

After it's published, I see a lot of shares kind of and people writing very long summary of it.

它发布后，我看到很多分享，人们写了很长的摘要。

That's always very encouraging and also many people I didn't expect reading it reach out to me, let me know, "Hey, I read that." For example.

这总是非常令人鼓舞，而且很多我没想到会读到它的人联系我，让我知道，“嘿，我读到了。”例如。

I think Ravi, he is also on your podcast.

我想拉维，他也在你的播客上。

I didn't know him personally, one day he's like, "Hila, I read that.

我个人并不认识他，有一天他说：“海拉，我读过那篇文章。

That's awesome." And a bunch of friends in VC and they kind of read that.

太棒了。”还有一群 VC 的朋友，他们都读过这篇文章。

They told me it's great.

他们告诉我这很棒。

I even have a advisory client kind of landed because of that as well.

我什至有一个咨询客户也因此而登陆。

So it's awesome.

所以这太棒了。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

It makes me really happy to hear all that.

听到这一切我真的很高兴。

I was also curious, has anything, and we're going to get into the details of all the stuff you wrote about and even beyond what you wrote about, but is there anything you're thinking has shifted on having after having written that series in terms of PLG?

我也很好奇，有什么，我们将深入了解您所写的所有内容的细节，甚至超出您所写的内容，但是在用 PLG 写完该系列之后，您认为有什么发生了变化吗？

Hila Qu: I wouldn't say it's shifted completely because I always believe you don't need to be a PLG purist.

Hila Qu：我不会说它已经完全改变了，因为我一直相信你不需要成为一个 PLG 纯粹主义者。

Meaning there are kind of people who are like, "PLG is the future.

这意味着有些人会说“PLG 就是未来。

It's only thing, you don't need sales." Right?

这只是一件事，你不需要销售。”正确的？

I was never like that, but recently by working with a few of my clients, I witnessed in reality many startups actually are having both.

我从来都不是这样的，但最近通过与我的一些客户合作，我亲眼目睹了现实中许多初创公司实际上两者兼而有之。

They have a PLG motion, they have a sales team as well.

他们有一项 PLG 动议，他们也有一个销售团队。

PLG motion is perfect for lowering the barrier for more people to try, broader the reach.

PLG 运动非常适合降低更多人尝试的障碍，扩大影响范围。

It's a kind of volume kind of game.

这是一种体积游戏。

And then the sales motion, you can have very targeted list of big customers you go after, you close them and it's a big order.

然后是销售行动，你可以有非常有针对性的大客户名单，你可以关闭他们，这是一个大订单。

Usually revenue, a very strong foundation for a company.

通常收入是公司非常坚实的基础。

And I've seen actually a lot of my clients that are doing, they have both.

我实际上看到很多我的客户正在这样做，他们两者都有。

They're doing that.

他们正在这样做。

They try to get the benefit of both from their early stage and it's super cool.

他们试图从早期阶段获得两者的好处，这非常酷。

Lenny: Is the simple way to think about this trend that eventually every one will need to do both.

莱尼：这是思考这一趋势的简单方法，最终每个人都需要两者兼而有之。

It's not one or the other, it's just both.

这不是其中之一，而是两者兼而有之。

And it's just a matter of when you add the other.

这只是一个何时添加另一个的问题。

Hila Qu: I would think so because let's say if you are in the sales motion dominated kind of traditional B2B software industry, your competitors will be adding PLG, as soon as they add it they will have a benefit of attracting more end users and end users become case to the employer, to the clients.

Hila Qu：我会这么认为，因为假设你处于销售运动主导的传统 B2B 软件行业，你的竞争对手将添加 PLG，一旦添加，他们将获得吸引更多最终用户的好处，最终用户会成为雇主、客户的案例。

And you lose that.

然后你就失去了它。

And if you are only in PLG somewhere else may go after the big customers.

如果你只在 PLG，其他地方可能会追求大客户。

It takes time for PLG to go to the big customer and close them.

PLG 需要时间去接触大客户并关闭他们。

So you lose a little bit of time there as well.

所以你也会在那里浪费一点时间。

I think eventually you need both.

我认为最终你两者都需要。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

That's kind of the way I've been seeing it.

这就是我一直以来的看法。

I did a few series on traditional product led growth companies, .

我做了一些关于传统产品主导的成长型公司的系列。

All those guys, and they all add sales teams eventually last famous for being product led only.

所有这些人，以及他们都添加的销售团队最终因仅以产品为主导而闻名。

And so everyone ends up adding sales team.

所以每个人最终都增加了销售团队。

I think more recent trend is sales led enterprise E products are all just realizing they need a product led growth component.

我认为最近的趋势是销售主导的企业电子产品都刚刚意识到他们需要产品主导的增长组件。

So that's kind of what I've been seeing too.

这也是我所看到的。

Hila Qu: Yeah, exactly.

曲海拉：是的，确实如此。

But I would say it is easier if you have PLG from early on.

但我想说，如果你一开始就拥有 PLG，事情会更容易。

If you are pure sales led, you try to add PLG, that's the harder thing to change basically.

如果你是纯粹的销售主导，你会尝试添加 PLG，这基本上是更难改变的事情。

Lenny: Interesting to set a little foundation.

莱尼：奠定一点基础很有趣。

Before we get into a lot of this stuff, it'd actually be helpful just to explain what is product like growth, just simply, because people hear this term a lot and it'd be helpful just to understand it broadly.

在我们深入讨论这些内容之前，简单地解释一下什么是类似产品的增长实际上会很有帮助，因为人们经常听到这个术语，并且广泛地理解它会很有帮助。

And then also just like why is it so popular?

然后也就像为什么它如此受欢迎？

Why does everyone want a product growth component to their business?

为什么每个人都希望他们的业务有产品增长成分？

Hila Qu: Just use a simple example in B2C product.

Hila Qu：举一个B2C产品中的简单例子。

When you think about Facebook, when you think about a lot of the products you use every day as an end consumer, it's always by default product led growth because there's no sales team .

当你想到 Facebook 时，当你想到作为最终消费者每天使用的许多产品时，默认情况下它总是以产品带动增长，因为没有销售团队。

The LTV of the product doesn't support that.

产品的生命周期价值不支持这一点。

I think PLG the term become popular because traditionally in B2B, word sales is the main motion.

我认为 PLG 这个术语之所以流行，是因为传统上 B2B 中，文字销售是主要动力。

You need a sales team to close the deal After the contract is signed, the end users can now finally use it.

您需要一个销售团队来完成交易合同签订后，最终用户现在终于可以使用它了。

Hila Qu: But nowadays, it's not necessarily a case.

曲海拉：但现在，情况不一定如此了。

You can have your B2B SaaS product developed in a way to allow end users to try before you buy.

您可以以允许最终用户在购买前试用的方式开发 B2B SaaS 产品。

So that's the reason I think this has become being more popular.

这就是我认为它变得更受欢迎的原因。

And the fundamental driver behind this is the user of B2B softwares are also human.

而这背后的根本驱动力是B2B软件的用户也是人。

It's the same human using B2C softwares and we're already trained to use product, try, and before we make any decision.

这是同一个人使用 B2C 软件，我们已经接受过使用产品、尝试以及做出任何决定之前的培训。

And we demand that in B2B as well.

我们在 B2B 领域也有这样的要求。

So it needs to happen.

所以它需要发生。

And more and more companies are capturing that trend basically, and they're trying to utilizing that as a entry point to either disrupt existing B2B players or build something really awesome for end users.

越来越多的公司基本上抓住了这一趋势，他们试图利用这一趋势作为切入点，要么颠覆现有的 B2B 参与者，要么为最终用户打造真正出色的产品。

So that's why it's becoming more and more popular.

这就是它变得越来越受欢迎的原因。

Lenny: To pull on that thread a little bit more even to help people visualize a product led growth product, what makes it product led?

莱尼：进一步拉动这条线索，甚至帮助人们想象一个以产品为主导的增长产品，是什么让它以产品为主导？

There's a self-serve component, what are attributes or just kind of common elements of something that's product led versus sales led?

有一个自助服务组件，以产品为主导的事物与以销售为主导的事物的属性或共同元素是什么？

Let's say.

这么说吧。

Hila Qu: Yeah, definitely.

曲海拉：是的，当然。

I think maybe we can use a product as a example, right?

我想也许我们可以用一个产品来举例，对吧？

Think about Zoom how me or you, maybe everyday users, how we get to know Zoom is not necessary through a sales team call me code or email me code and introducing me this, showing a demo of Zoom, and I get to know Zoom, right?

想想Zoom，我或你，也许是日常用户，我们如何认识Zoom，没有必要通过销售团队打电话给我代码或给我发电子邮件代码并向我介绍这个，展示Zoom的演示，我就认识了Zoom，对吗？

It's because maybe Lenny, you hosted a webinar I joined and I get to just use this software already without even knowing it's Zoom.

这是因为也许 Lenny，你主持了我参加的网络研讨会，我已经开始使用这个软件了，甚至不知道它是 Zoom。

And then afterwards I may one day think about I want to do this myself and I just do that in a sign-up and I already create a host a webinar and I can pay if I need a paid plan or I can use a lot of more advanced features when I, let's say hit the 40 minutes limit, I can already click that and pay and become a paid customer already.

然后有一天我可能会想到我想自己做这件事，我只是在注册时这样做，我已经创建了一个网络研讨会的主持人，如果我需要付费计划，我可以付费，或者当我达到 40 分钟限制时，我可以使用许多更高级的功能，我已经可以点击它并付款并成为付费客户了。

Hila Qu: So I think the key properties also of PLG products, think about it should have a very low barrier to entry.

Hila Qu：所以我认为PLG产品的关键特性也是如此，想一想它的进入门槛应该很低。

Usually it has a free version, free trial.

通常它有免费版本，免费试用。

You don't need get approval from your boss to use it.

您无需获得老板的批准即可使用它。

You can use it today and then it has some sort of a self-service checkout flow.

您今天就可以使用它，然后它有某种自助结帐流程。

If you need a better version, you can buy yourself as well.

如果您需要更好的版本，也可以自己购买。

And this product, basically the free product will spread on its own in some way or another.

而这个产品，基本上是免费产品，会以某种方式自行传播。

Lenny: Okay, perfect.

莱尼：好的，完美。

I think that was really helpful.

我认为这真的很有帮助。

I think we dive into some of the meat of the discussion that we have planned and where I thought it'd be fun to start is the common pitfalls that people fall into when they're trying to add a product led growth motion.

我认为我们深入探讨了我们计划的讨论的一些核心内容，我认为从人们在尝试添加产品主导的增长动议时陷入的常见陷阱开始会很有趣。

And so what are the most common ways people fail when they're trying to figure out product led growth?

那么，当人们试图找出产品主导型增长时，最常见的失败方式是什么？

Hila Qu: The first of all, as I mentioned, you need to have some sort of vehicle.

Hila Qu：首先，正如我提到的，你需要拥有某种车辆。

A lot of the companies, if you go to their website, especially B2B companies, you'll see the biggest CTA is called book demo.

很多公司，如果你去他们的网站，特别是B2B公司，你会看到最大的CTA叫做书籍演示。

They don't have anything else.

他们没有别的东西了。

The first step for you to do is submit a form and kind of basically explain yourself to this company, I'm from who and who company and I want to use the tool, can you come back to me and allow me to see a demo of your product?

您要做的第一步是提交一份表格，并向这家公司基本解释一下自己，我来自谁、谁公司，我想使用该工具，您能回到我身边，让我看看您产品的演示吗？

That means the entry point to PLG is cut off.

这意味着 PLG 的入口点被切断。

Instead, the first step is you need to either have a free product, free trial, some sort of a low barrier entry for anyone who stumble upon this product to give it a try.

相反，第一步是您需要获得免费产品、免费试用，或者为任何偶然发现该产品的人提供某种低门槛的入口来尝试。

A lot of companies don't have that.

很多公司都没有这个。

That's the first I would say hurdle or peaceful.

这是我首先要说的障碍或和平。

Hila Qu: And especially if you are a sales lead and you already have all those things figured out, you try to go to add PLG, it's not as easy as just say, add a kind of free trial CTA on your website.

Hila Qu：特别是如果你是销售主管，并且你已经把所有这些事情都弄清楚了，你尝试去添加PLG，这并不像在你的网站上添加一种免费试用CTA那么简单。

You need to build this free experience.

您需要构建这种免费体验。

You also need to convince your sales team, your existing product team, your marketing team, "Hey, let's try this out." Because before this process is super clean.

您还需要说服您的销售团队、现有的产品团队、营销团队，“嘿，让我们尝试一下。”因为之前这个过程是超级干净的。

Everyone only get only selected future leads and sales work on those.

每个人只能获得选定的未来线索，并针对这些线索进行销售工作。

But now you need to allow more people in and there need to be more understanding of their behavior data, the process need to change.

但现在你需要让更多的人进来，需要更多地了解他们的行为数据，这个过程需要改变。

So it's actually a whole process.

所以这实际上是一个完整的过程。

So I would say that's first one.

所以我想说这是第一个。

And along with that is some companies didn't think it thoroughly and they are just kind of saying, "Oh, PLG is cool, let's do PLG."

除此之外，一些公司没有彻底思考这一点，他们只是说，“哦，PLG 很酷，我们就做 PLG 吧。”

Hila Qu: And then they maybe spend three months build kind of some sort of a very basic free trial and then they think that's it.

Hila Qu：然后他们可能会花三个月的时间构建某种非常基本的免费试用版，然后他们认为就这样了。

They think the leads will come, conversion will come, self-service revenue will come.

他们认为潜在客户将会到来，转化将会到来，自助服务收入将会到来。

It's not that easy.

这并不容易。

It's not that simple.

事情没那么简单。

It is definitely a entire motion.

这绝对是一个完整的运动。

So I would say you need to commit to it.

所以我想说你需要承诺这一点。

Maybe you can do some thinking, collecting some data, build your conviction, but to a certain point you need to commit to at least a year or even two years kind of roadmap to build this entire thing out and change the process internally sometimes as well to support that.

也许你可以做一些思考，收集一些数据，建立你的信念，但到了一定程度，你需要承诺至少一年甚至两年的路线图来构建整个事情，有时也需要在内部改变流程来支持这一点。

The last one, I would say a lot of times the company's committed, they want to do this, but they don't know the right way or they don't have the foundation, they don't have the expertise of PLG.

最后一个，我想说很多时候公司承诺，他们想要这样做，但他们不知道正确的方法，或者他们没有基础，他们没有PLG的专业知识。

Hila Qu: Their internal team, they're really good at sales or maybe really good at as the traditional motion, but they don't have this part of expertise and foundation.

曲海拉：他们的内部团队，他们真的很擅长销售或者可能真的很擅长传统的动作，但是他们没有这部分的专业知识和基础。

A common thing I see is that company want to do PLG and they have no usage data at all and they're like, "I will just doing PLG.

我看到的一个常见现象是，公司想做 PLG，但他们根本没有使用数据，他们会说，“我只会做 PLG。

But PLG I always say is actually fundamentally DLG, data led growth.

但我一直说的PLG实际上从根本上来说是DLG，数据带动增长。

So when you give away your free product, what you want to get in exchange are two things.

因此，当您赠送免费产品时，您想要交换的有两件事。

One is the broader reach because free product spread itself is lower barrier to entry.

一是覆盖范围更广，因为免费产品传播本身就降低了进入门槛。

Two, you want to understand the usage behavior of those free users, which features do they use and which features kind of correlates with a higher conversion rate, retention rate, all of that.

第二，您想要了解这些免费用户的使用行为，他们使用哪些功能以及哪些功能与更高的转化率、保留率等相关。

Hila Qu: If you don't have a foundation of data and understanding of how to analyze those data, you are giving a way of free product for nothing.

Hila Qu：如果你没有数据基础并且不了解如何分析这些数据，那么你就白白提供了一种免费产品。

Like you are really not being able to utilize all of that to build your PLG motion.

就像您确实无法利用所有这些来构建您的 PLG 运动一样。

So I think data foundation and expertise in terms of how do I design that user journey, that journey is very different from the sales user journey.

因此，我认为在如何设计用户旅程方面的数据基础和专业知识，该旅程与销售用户旅程非常不同。

Those are sometimes missing in company when they just begin to doing this.

当他们刚开始这样做时，这些人有时会在公司中消失。

And in those cases I think it's super helpful to maybe either find someone who have done this as an advisor or hire someone like you need to have that expertise or through advisor to support your PLG motion.

在这些情况下，我认为找到做过这件事的人作为顾问，或者聘请像您需要具备专业知识的人或通过顾问来支持您的 PLG 动议，这是非常有帮助的。

Lenny: This is great.

莱尼：这太棒了。

We're going to talk about the data piece more in depth later, but on the commitment piece, I thought that was really interesting.

稍后我们将更深入地讨论数据部分，但关于承诺部分，我认为这非常有趣。

I imagine many times founders or leaders think they have commitment and then they realize maybe not so much.

我想很多时候，创始人或领导者认为他们有承诺，然后他们意识到可能没有那么多。

Are there any kind of flags that tell you that, "Oh, you're not actually committed to working on this for a year or two years, whatever it takes."

是否有任何类型的标志告诉您，“哦，您实际上并没有致力于为此工作一年或两年，无论付出什么代价。”

Hila Qu: The red flags I've seen basically sometimes, first of all, they think about PLG equals launch of free version or launch of free trial.

Hila Qu：我有时看到的危险信号基本上是，首先，他们认为 PLG 等于推出免费版本或推出免费试用版。

They made this assumption in their head, "Oh, I already have a product.

他们在脑海中做出了这样的假设：“哦，我已经有了一个产品。

I already have a software that's working, customers are using.

我已经有一个可以运行的软件，客户正在使用。

Now if I add a free version, if I open a free trial, that's it." Like that's basically PLG, and I will have conversions.

现在，如果我添加一个免费版本，如果我打开一个免费试用版，就这样了。”这基本上就是 PLG，我就会进行转换。

I will have people becoming a product qualified leads just because I have it.

我会让人们成为产品合格的领导者，因为我拥有它。

"Hey, I open this for you, just come and use it and ." And I think that's one red flag.

“嘿，我给你打开这个，你过来用吧。”我认为这是一个危险信号。

Basically they are not thinking about the entire thing through understanding the implication, not only the free product, it's really just a start.

基本上他们并没有通过理解含义来思考整个事情，不仅仅是免费产品，这实际上只是一个开始。

You need to think about how to activate, how to design the upgrade path, how those teams, those new growth teams work with other sales and marketing teams, all of that.

你需要考虑如何激活，如何设计升级路径，这些团队，那些新的增长团队如何与其他销售和营销团队合作，所有这些。

Hila Qu: So that's one.

曲海拉：原来如此。

The other one is they don't have a dedicated team.

另一个是他们没有专门的团队。

They just basically assign one person to the thing.

他们基本上只是指派一个人来做这件事。

They are imagine, "Hey, you already have this.

他们想象，“嘿，你已经有了这个。

It's not that big of deal.

这没什么大不了的。

You can just figure this out by borrowing resources from everywhere and try to coordinate all the stakeholders from sales, marketing, product." That person need to be a magician in order to be successful in that basically.

你可以通过借用各地的资源来解决这个问题，并尝试协调来自销售、营销、产品的所有利益相关者。”为了在这方面取得成功，这个人需要成为一名魔术师。

And I think the third thing is basically they are really doing this because it's trendy.

我认为第三件事基本上是他们真的这样做是因为它很时尚。

They didn't think about the deeper strategic reason why this is a good fit for their business.

他们没有考虑为什么这非常适合他们的业务的更深层次的战略原因。

Do you have a product that's relatively low complexity, doesn't require a lot of customization for the customer to see value.

您是否拥有复杂性相对较低、不需要大量定制即可让客户看到价值的产品？

Hila Qu: Time to value need to be relatively short or you can figure out a way to make it short.

Hila Qu：实现价值的时间需要相对较短，或者你可以找到一种方法来缩短它。

And then do you have a lot of potentially end user S&B business?

那么您是否有很多潜在的最终用户 S&B 业务？

They are interested in the solution.

他们对解决方案感兴趣。

They want to try that out.

他们想尝试一下。

If you do not have both, if you for example, develop a software for the .

如果您两者都没有，例如，如果您为 .

Companies like .

公司喜欢。

Or defense companies, only three target customer exist in the entire world, you don't probably want to do PLG, right?

或者国防公司，全世界只有三个目标客户，你可能不想做PLG，对吧？

So think deeper about the fit and then commit.

因此，请更深入地考虑是否适合，然后做出承诺。

And I would say those are the red flags.

我想说这些都是危险信号。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So on that last point, I thought that was a really interesting, we talked about how every company probably should add a product led growth piece, but I think what you're also saying is actually not every company, there are some companies like defense contractors that are probably going to be sale led.

因此，关于最后一点，我认为这非常有趣，我们讨论了每个公司可能应该如何添加产品主导的增长部分，但我认为您所说的实际上并不是每个公司，有些公司（例如国防承包商）可能会以销售为主导。

Hila Qu: I think it's a spectrum.

曲海拉：我认为这是一个谱系。

I would say the defense company, defense software company is a pretty extreme example.

我想说国防公司、国防软件公司是一个非常极端的例子。

And of course in those case, I don't think it makes sense, but I think majority of B2B software, I've seen, you've seen, we've used even some more complicated ones.

当然，在这种情况下，我认为这是没有意义的，但我认为大多数 B2B 软件，我见过，你也见过，我们甚至使用了一些更复杂的软件。

Like Salesforce used to be this example of sales motion.

就像 Salesforce 曾经是这个销售动议的例子一样。

They're the pioneer of SaaS and they do this so well, but they begin to add look into sales service portal and all of that.

他们是 SaaS 的先驱，他们在这方面做得非常好，但他们开始添加对销售服务门户等的关注。

And even a lot of the bigger players are looking into that.

甚至许多较大的参与者也在研究这个问题。

So I think majority of the B2B software, probably they are in the middle of the spectrum rather than the defense company.

所以我认为大多数 B2B 软件可能处于中间范围，而不是国防公司。

Lenny: You kind of shared some of the attributes of what allows you to be product led, like quick time to value.

Lenny：您分享了一些让您能够以产品为主导的属性，例如快速实现价值。

If you have this in your head, what are some of those bullet points of what you need to figure out for it to be successful potentially as product led?

如果你脑子里有这个想法，那么你需要弄清楚哪些要点才能以产品为主导取得成功？

Hila Qu: The first thing is that have a...

Hila Qu：首先是要有一个……

And you mentioned you are able to have a vehicle, have a free version, have a free trial.

你提到你可以拥有一辆车，有一个免费版本，有一个免费试用版。

Sometimes it's a open source product.

有时它是开源产品。

A lot of developer products start as a open source product.

许多开发人员产品都是从开源产品开始的。

It has its constraints, but it is also a great kind of vehicle for PLG or if none of those are option, you can build a really realistic kind of experience.

它有其局限性，但它也是 PLG 的一种很好的工具，或者如果这些都不是选项，您可以构建一种真正现实的体验。

For example, I remember Amplitude, they are pursuing PLG now, but they used to have a lot of barrier.

比如我记得Amplitude，他们现在在追求PLG，但是他们以前有很多障碍。

As an end user, it's hard for me to put that code into my product and see my data, but they build a really realistic interactive demo that's getting closer to PLG.

作为最终用户，我很难将该代码放入我的产品中并查看我的数据，但他们构建了一个非常现实的交互式演示，越来越接近 PLG。

So it's not PLG, but it's getting closer and you can already see the value and play with it yourself.

所以它不是 PLG，但它越来越接近，你已经可以看到它的价值并自己使用它。

So that's the first step.

这是第一步。

Have a vehicle.

有车。

Hila Qu: The second step step is time to value.

Hila Qu：第二步是实现价值的时间。

Basically, just because you have this vehicle doesn't mean people will come and use it and see the value.

基本上，仅仅因为你拥有这辆车并不意味着人们会来使用它并看到它的价值。

So you need to figure out how do you give your users a warm start and help them get started.

因此，您需要弄清楚如何为用户提供一个温暖的开始并帮助他们开始使用。

I was talking with a kind of company today, they just realized we have this tool and when people come in into the free trial, they are asked to do some action, but nobody know how to do that.

我今天与一家公司交谈，他们刚刚意识到我们有这个工具，当人们进入免费试用版时，他们被要求做一些操作，但没有人知道如何做。

They may not have everything ready to take that action.

他们可能还没有做好采取这一行动的一切准备。

So we're like, "What about we gave them some sample video or sample action they can try." Right?

所以我们想，“我们给他们一些可以尝试的示例视频或示例动作怎么样？”对吗？

It's not the same as they do it themselves, but it's better.

这和他们自己做的不一样，但是更好。

It's getting closer.

越来越近了。

And after that you can ask them to try the thing on their own and they need to do more work.

之后你可以要求他们自己尝试，他们需要做更多的工作。

Hila Qu: So kind of think about all the ways you can reduce time to value.

Hila Qu：请考虑一下可以缩短价值实现时间的所有方法。

It doesn't need to be this big aha moment in the first five minutes, but at least give them some mini aha moments, right?

前五分钟不需要有这么大的顿悟时刻，但至少给他们一些迷你的顿悟时刻，对吧？

So that's the second thing, third thing is think about from there.

这是第二件事，第三件事是从那里开始思考。

If they get aha moment, if they want to buy, you need to have this self-checkout flow ready, self-service flow.

如果他们顿悟了，如果他们想购买，你需要准备好自助结帐流程，自助服务流程。

It's the foundation, if you have it, it doesn't mean they won't buy immediately, but at least it gave them this option to do that themselves.

这是基础，如果你有了它，并不意味着他们不会立即购买，但至少它给了他们自己这样做的选择。

And the fourth thing I would say, between this kind of activation usage, aha moment to this conversion moment, actually there's a big gap.

第四点我要说的是，这种激活使用、顿悟时刻和转换时刻之间，实际上有很大的差距。

And what is the gap?

差距是多少？

How you can understand the gap, how you can guide people around that journey is basically you need to have a very good grasp of data.

如何理解差距，如何引导人们完成这一旅程基本上是你需要很好地掌握数据。

Hila Qu: You need to have the foundation to understand their usage, their behavior, and then you can design a user journey in the product, in email, in all those tools to guide user to the next step.

Hila Qu：你需要有基础来了解他们的使用情况、他们的行为，然后你可以在产品、电子邮件、所有这些工具中设计用户旅程，引导用户进行下一步。

So have a very strong data foundation there.

因此，那里有非常强大的数据基础。

I would say.

我会说。

I think those are the main thing.

我认为这些是主要的事情。

And there are other things like your pricing need to be relatively simple.

还有其他一些事情，比如你的定价需要相对简单。

If your pricing is super complicated, they need to...

如果您的定价非常复杂，他们需要...

Whenever they pick, for example, they try the product, they love it, they have a self-checkout flow, but in order to decide how much they need to pay, they need to send your sales some information, you need to do a quote, then that's broken, right?

例如，每当他们挑选产品时，他们会尝试产品，他们喜欢它，他们有自助结帐流程，但为了决定他们需要支付多少钱，他们需要向您的销售人员发送一些信息，您需要进行报价，然后这就坏了，对吧？

Or they're already confused about this process.

或者他们已经对这个过程感到困惑了。

So that is another kind of important thing as well.

所以这也是另一件重要的事情。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

So just to summarize, I took notes on this kind of the things that you got to get.

总而言之，我对你必须得到的这类东西做了笔记。

If you want to add a product led growth component, there needs to be something free and kind of self-serve that you can-

如果您想添加以产品为主导的增长组件，则需要有一些免费且自助的东西，您可以-

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

growth component.

增长成分。

There needs to be something free and kind of self-serve that you can just start using on your own.

需要有一些免费且自助的东西，您可以自己开始使用。

There needs to be a quick time to value, there needs to be a self-serve checkout experience.

需要快速实现价值，需要自助结账体验。

You need a data foundation.

您需要一个数据基础。

I really love the way you phrased it where one of the benefits of product growth is the data component that'll help you understand what to build on, how to monetize these folks.

我真的很喜欢你的措辞方式，其中产品增长的好处之一是数据组件，它将帮助你了解构建的基础，以及如何通过这些人获利。

And then the last piece is pricing that's simple, that people understand.

最后一部分是简单、人们可以理解的定价。

Hila Qu: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

曲海拉：是啊是啊。

Just imagine you are building, selling something on e-commerce side.

想象一下您正在电子商务方面构建、销售一些东西。

You need all of this, right.

你需要这一切，对吧。

Just in order for the B2B buyer to buy your software in PLG motion, you need to make all those available to him.

为了让 B2B 买家在 PLG 运动中购买您的软件，您需要向他提供所有这些软件。

It doesn't mean if you view this, it'll happen, again, right.

这并不意味着如果你看到这个，它就会再次发生，对吧。

That's the data experimentation.

这就是数据实验。

A lot of that need to be there to support a lot of iteration and make this work.

需要有很多东西来支持大量的迭代并使这项工作发挥作用。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so we've been going in a lot of directions.

好的，我们已经朝很多方向前进了。

We started with pitfalls and things you probably will...

我们从陷阱和你可能会遇到的事情开始......

You'll run into that may set you off track.

你会遇到可能让你偏离轨道的情况。

But let's zoom out again and let's get into, just say you're convinced we need to invest in adding a product-led growth motion to our product.

但是，让我们再次缩小范围，让我们进入，只是说您确信我们需要投资为我们的产品添加以产品为主导的增长动力。

What's the first step that you recommend for people to go down?

您建议人们向下走的第一步是什么？

Hila Qu: I think the first step actually, I would recommend founders and leaders to just understand what's PLG funnel, what's sales-led funnel with SLG funnel.

Hila Qu：我认为实际上第一步，我会建议创始人和领导者了解什么是PLG漏斗，什么是销售主导漏斗和SLG漏斗。

Because I remember when I begin to work on PLG at GitLab, it was not that clear to me.

因为我记得当我开始在 GitLab 从事 PLG 工作时，我并不太清楚。

There's a lot of things you can read, but they're not all super clear.

您可以阅读很多内容，但它们并不都非常清晰。

What is PLG?

什么是PLG？

How is that different?

那有什么不同呢？

And through working on that myself, I begin to develop this conviction and kind of this clear picture.

通过我自己的努力，我开始形成这种信念和清晰的图景。

The biggest difference from SLG and PLG is that the sales funnel traditionally work like something...

与 SLG 和 PLG 最大的区别在于，销售漏斗传统上的工作方式类似于......

You have marketing team working on the top of funnel, bring visitor and then they need to have a process to turn the visitors into lead.

您有营销团队在渠道顶部工作，吸引访客，然后他们需要有一个流程将访客转化为潜在客户。

And leads is something, it is basically very popular and vitally used in the B2B business.

潜在客户是一种东西，它基本上非常流行，并且在 B2B 业务中得到广泛使用。

And you go through some qualification process and leads need to be from your target kind of customer, target industry.

你要经历一些资格认证过程，并且线索需要来自你的目标客户类型、目标行业。

Hila Qu: The company need to meet certain size, but they also need to show interest.

Hila Qu：公司需要达到一定的规模，但他们也需要表现出兴趣。

And how marketing team historically gauge interest is how much they interact with your marketing campaigns.

营销团队历来衡量兴趣的方式是他们与您的营销活动互动的程度。

Do they open an email?

他们会打开电子邮件吗？

Do they read three white papers?

他们读过三份白皮书吗？

Do they go to this webinar?

他们参加这个网络研讨会吗？

That's how they gauge interest.

这就是他们衡量兴趣的方式。

And for each positive action you did as a buyer, they add some points to you.

对于您作为买家所做的每一项积极行动，他们都会为您增加一些积分。

And once you reach certain points, you become this marketing qualified leads.

一旦你达到了一定的程度，你就成为了营销合格的领导者。

Basically those are the better ones we featured through that process and we gave that to the sales team.

基本上，这些是我们通过该过程推荐的更好的产品，并将其提供给销售团队。

And sales team has more process, but then they choose some of them, work on them, and they close some of them.

销售团队有更多的流程，但他们会选择其中的一些，对其进行处理，然后关闭其中的一些。

So that's kind of traditionally B2B sales-led motion works.

这就是传统上 B2B 销售主导的运动作品。

And then product-led funnel is different.

然后以产品为主导的漏斗是不同的。

It's much more similar to B2C.

它与 B2C 更相似。

Basically you can still have people visit your website and they sign up for free version or free account or free trial.

基本上，您仍然可以让人们访问您的网站，并注册免费版本或免费帐户或免费试用版。

Hila Qu: The most important thing, the biggest difference, is now you want them to use the product.

Hila Qu：最重要的，最大的区别，是现在你希望他们使用这个产品。

You can still send all the marketing emails, all of that, but those are supplemental.

您仍然可以发送所有营销电子邮件，所有这些，但这些都是补充性的。

Those are kind of trying to get them to the product to use, to try, and the usage, product usage, is almost like the leading indicator for success for PLG, versus in the sales funnel, it's almost like how many do you get and do they interact with the marketing campaigns, which in the old days it's what you have because nobody can access your product unless the contract is signed.

这些都是试图让他们使用、尝试产品，而使用、产品使用几乎就像是 PLG 成功的领先指标，而在销售漏斗中，它几乎就像你得到了多少产品以及他们是否与营销活动互动，这在过去就是你所拥有的，因为除非签署合同，否则没有人可以访问你的产品。

But nowadays that's almost like an artificial barrier.

但如今这几乎就像一个人为的屏障。

It's not there.

它不在那里。

You can totally build a product in a free version to allow people to use.

您完全可以构建免费版本的产品以供人们使用。

So usage becomes so important.

所以使用就变得如此重要。

And that's the biggest difference from the usage that you have two potential conversion paths.

这与使用情况最大的区别是有两个潜在的转化路径。

Hila Qu: One is that if this product is not that expensive, the price point fits in most companies' budget.

曲海拉：一是如果这个产品不是那么贵的话，这个价位符合大多数公司的预算。

Some companies may just use their credit card and they buy online.

有些公司可能只使用信用卡并在网上购买。

That's also, you then don't even need sales team to be involved.

也就是说，您甚至不需要销售团队参与。

And it's very similar to the B2C product, e-commerce product, buying process.

这与B2C产品、电子商务产品的购买流程非常相似。

And it's awesome because it's automated, you don't need to have more sales team involved.

它很棒，因为它是自动化的，您不需要更多的销售团队参与。

It's low cost, it's efficient, it can happen on its own every day.

它成本低，效率高，每天都可以发生。

It will just add up to your revenue.

它只会增加您的收入。

And then the other potential conversion pass is where the product usage is high, but also this customer, this potential prospect, fits into your ideal customer profile.

然后另一个潜在的转化通道是产品使用率很高的地方，而且这个客户，这个潜在的潜在客户，也符合你理想的客户档案。

It's from a Fortune 500 company or it's from a target industry that you know they need your solution.

它来自财富 500 强公司或者来自您知道他们需要您的解决方案的目标行业。

Then this customer worth more of your time and you should actually not, even if they may want to buy on their own, you may want to still have your sales team or have your customer success team to reach out to them to understand a little bit more of the situation and give them some white glove service.

那么这个客户值得你花更多的时间，而你实际上不应该，即使他们可能想自己购买，你可能仍然希望你的销售团队或你的客户成功团队与他们接触，以了解更多的情况，并为他们提供一些白手套服务。

Hopefully you can even close a bigger deal than if they would have buy on their own.

希望您甚至可以达成比他们自己购买更大的交易。

So that's another pass.

所以这是另一次通过。

I call that PQL, PQA, like sales pass.

我称之为 PQL、PQA，就像销售通行证一样。

Lenny: And that stands for product qualified lead, right?

莱尼：这代表产品合格的领先优势，对吗？

Hila Qu: Product qualified leads, product qualified account.

Hila Qu：产品合格的潜在客户，产品合格的客户。

So the first step is for you to understand those two funnels and then think about if you want to add PLG, right?

所以第一步是让你了解这两个渠道，然后考虑是否要添加 PLG，对吗？

What is this journey?

这次旅程是什么？

What are the steps along that funnel you need to establish for your product in order for your user to be able to convert in that funnel?

为了让您的用户能够在该渠道中进行转化，您需要为您的产品建立哪些渠道步骤？

Lenny: So you talked about these two funnels.

莱尼：所以你谈到了这两个渠道。

One question is, are they basically the same for almost every product or should you try to figure out what's really unique about my funnel?

一个问题是，几乎所有产品的它们基本上都是相同的，还是您应该尝试找出我的漏斗的真正独特之处？

And then second, is there an example of product that you think about like, here's the sales led funnel for them and then here's the product-led version of that, just to make it a little more real even?

其次，您是否有一个产品示例，例如，这是他们的销售主导漏斗，然后是产品主导的版本，只是为了使其更加真实？

Hila Qu: Maybe I can give an example first and then we can talk about the other question.

曲海拉：也许我可以先举个例子，然后我们再讨论另一个问题。

So I can use GitLab as an example since that's where I'm most familiar.

所以我可以使用 GitLab 作为例子，因为那是我最熟悉的地方。

GitLab actually have a enterprise sales team, very strong sales team, from the very beginning.

GitLab 实际上从一开始就拥有一支企业销售团队，非常强大的销售团队。

But the company also we started from open source product.

但我们公司也是从开源产品开始的。

Lenny: Maybe describe what GitLab is for folks that aren't super familiar with it.

Lenny：也许可以为那些不太熟悉 GitLab 的人描述一下它是什么。

Hila Qu: Yeah, so GitLab, we are a developer platform, DevOps platform, basically engineer teams, developer teams.

Hila Qu：是的，GitLab，我们是一个开发者平台，DevOps 平台，基本上是工程师团队，开发者团队。

They use this product to manage their entire DevOps process, from storing their code, kind of managing the version control, releasing CSAD, like security scan, all of that.

他们使用这个产品来管理整个 DevOps 流程，从存储代码、管理版本控制、发布 CSAD，如安全扫描，所有这些。

It's an all in one platform for that team.

对于该团队来说，这是一个一体化平台。

So for the sales-led motion, like I mentioned, the teams, our marketing team, were working bringing a lot of visitors to our website and they sign up for free trial, for free accounts.

因此，对于以销售为主导的动议，就像我提到的那样，我们的团队、我们的营销团队正在努力吸引大量访问者访问我们的网站，他们注册免费试用、免费帐户。

And then we have this lead nurturing and lead scoring process to surface which are the good ones for our sales team.

然后我们就有了潜在客户培育和潜在客户评分流程，这对我们的销售团队来说是好事。

In our sales team, we have SNB, we have the mid-market, we have enterprise, and they each kind of took their buckets of leads and work on them and close them.

在我们的销售团队中，我们有 SNB，我们有中端市场，我们有企业，他们各自获取大量的潜在客户，并致力于它们并关闭它们。

They become revenue.

它们变成了收入。

Hila Qu: And then how the product led funnel work for us is someone, maybe as a developer, I heard about GitLab, I go to website, I see, "Oh, I can actually sign up for a free account." I may use it for my personal project.

Hila Qu：然后，产品引导漏斗如何为我们工作，也许作为开发人员，我听说过 GitLab，我访问网站，我看到，“哦，我实际上可以注册一个免费帐户。”我可以将它用于我的个人项目。

My company may be using another solution, but I have some side project I'm doing as a developer.

我的公司可能正在使用另一种解决方案，但我作为开发人员正在做一些副业项目。

I want to use GitLab to host that.

我想使用 GitLab 来托管它。

And I did that.

我就这么做了。

And so you begin to see this, individual users having some usage but nothing to do with his company.

所以你开始看到这一点，个人用户有一些使用，但与他的公司无关。

And then one day maybe this person's employer, "We want to look into some other solutions.

然后有一天，也许这个人的雇主，“我们想研究一些其他的解决方案。

We have way too many point solutions for each step of DevOps.

对于 DevOps 的每个步骤，我们都有太多的单点解决方案。

Now we want to potentially consolidate them.

现在我们想要潜在地整合它们。

So what are the options?" And this engineer raise his hand, "Hey, I have been using GitLab for a very long time and I really like it.

那么有哪些选择呢？”这位工程师举起了手，“嘿，我已经使用 GitLab 很长时间了，我真的很喜欢它。

I think we should check them out." And then this team, maybe this engineer manager or CTO depending on the size of company, they're like, "Okay."

我认为我们应该检查一下它们。”然后这个团队，也许是这个工程师经理或首席技术官，具体取决于公司的规模，他们会说，“好吧。”

Hila Qu: He went to their website and he kind of signed up for a free trial because that allow him to test some more advanced features.

Hila Qu：他访问了他们的网站，并注册了免费试用版，因为这可以让他测试一些更高级的功能。

It's 30 days, but he already has...

虽然已经30天了，但他已经……

This person knows how to use it.

这个人知道如何使用它。

This person already set up the foundation with the free version and they started the free trial.

此人已经通过免费版本建立了基础，并开始免费试用。

They use their 30 day to do a proof of concept, the entire company already using it for part of their process.

他们用 30 天的时间进行概念验证，整个公司已经将其用于其流程的一部分。

And they're like, "Oh, awesome.

他们就像，“哦，太棒了。

I tried this feature, that feature, that feature.

我尝试了这个功能、那个功能、那个功能。

It's a great tool.

这是一个很棒的工具。

It can support our workflow and I'm pretty sure we should be able to get ROI from this product." And then in this case they are like, "I only need five seats.

它可以支持我们的工作流程，我非常确定我们应该能够从该产品中获得投资回报。”然后在这种情况下，他们会说，“我只需要五个座位。

It's cheap.

它很便宜。

I will just go to the pricing page and check out the pricing and buy from there." Or in some cases, this is a big company and we see this big company is using our product, our sales team get that data signal, they may send an email and reach out and say, "Hey, I saw you were checking it out.

我只需进入定价页面并查看定价并从那里购买即可。”或者在某些情况下，这是一家大公司，我们看到这家大公司正在使用我们的产品，我们的销售团队收到该数据信号，他们可能会发送电子邮件并伸出援手说：“嘿，我看到你正在查看。

How can I help?" And that may start a sales conversation, eventually become a contract from there.

我能帮什么忙吗？”这可能会开始销售对话，最终成为合同。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

Thank you for sharing that example.

感谢您分享该示例。

Maybe a last question on this first step of mapping out the funnel.

也许是关于绘制漏斗的第一步的最后一个问题。

Do you recommend people just get in front of a whiteboard and just sit together and like, "Here's what it would be potentially if we added a product-led growth motion?"

你是否建议人们坐在白板前，坐在一起，说“如果我们添加以产品为主导的增长动议，可能会出现什么结果？”

Hila Qu: Yes.

曲海拉：是的。

Yes.

是的。

And I think it's not that...

而且我认为并不是这样的...

The devil is in the details.

魔鬼在于细节。

Just mapping out the big steps is not that hard.

制定大步骤并不难。

You think about, " I have a marketing site already.

您想一下，“我已经有一个营销网站了。

I can build a free version." And then they use the free version and I build a checkout flow and that's it.

我可以构建一个免费版本。”然后他们使用免费版本，我构建了一个结帐流程，仅此而已。

That's the story.

这就是故事。

But that's the first step.

但这是第一步。

If you don't even have those components, mapping out the funnel will allow you to see a missing checkout flow, a missing free version, you already identified that.

如果您甚至没有这些组件，绘制出漏斗图将使您能够看到缺少的结帐流程，缺少的免费版本，您已经确定了这一点。

But the devil is in the detail one layer down.

但问题在于下一层的细节。

How do you design an experience for each of the step?

您如何为每个步骤设计体验？

What do you say on your marketing side to drive free signup?

您认为营销方面如何推动免费注册？

In the free signup, how do you guide them to use the three most important features?

在免费注册中，你如何引导他们使用最重要的三个功能？

And in the checkout flow, which payment option do you offer so that customers from everywhere can buy very smoothly?

那么在结账流程中，你们提供哪种支付方式让各地的顾客都可以非常顺利地购买呢？

So that's the next layers kind of detail that actually has so many opportunities for optimization, maximization and all of that.

这就是下一层的细节，实际上有很多优化、最大化等机会。

Lenny: That's actually a really good segue to the next question, which is just, okay, you've mapped out the funnel, what do you do next?

莱尼：这实际上是一个很好的接续下一个问题的方法，好吧，你已经规划好了漏斗，接下来你要做什么？

Hila Qu: If you don't have the foundational components, you need to build all of that.

Hila Qu：如果您没有基础组件，则需要构建所有这些组件。

But if you have something, if you already have this funnel exist, right, it's just not working perfectly at least, but it's working, it's there.

但如果你有一些东西，如果你已经有了这个漏斗，对吧，它至少不能完美地工作，但它正在工作，它就在那里。

I think the next step is you need to pick a starting point.

我认为下一步你需要选择一个起点。

Where do you want to focus first to drive the maximum impact?

您想首先关注哪里以产生最大影响？

Personally, I'm a big fan of finding leverage.

就我个人而言，我非常热衷于寻找杠杆。

I think doing growth is always about finding leverage.

我认为实现增长总是要找到杠杆。

If you can always find the area that with relatively small investment can give you the biggest results, that can be such a kind of momentum, can empower you through future experiments and more work.

如果你总能找到用相对较小的投入就能给你带来最大成果的领域，那就可以是这样一种动力，可以让你通过未来的实验和更多的工作。

And just finding leverage is a beautiful thing in my mind.

在我看来，找到杠杆就是一件美好的事情。

So I always want to do that.

所以我一直想这样做。

So when I think about pick a starting point, one thing I actually do with a lot of my advisory clients as a first step is, we do a full funnel audit, full PLG funnel audit.

因此，当我考虑选择一个起点时，我实际上与许多咨询客户一起做的第一步是，我们进行完整的漏斗审计，完整的 PLG 漏斗审计。

Hila Qu: Think about, we go through me as a kind of end user, go through the entire journey, pretend I am interested, semi interested, and I want to buy from the website.

Hila Qu：想一想，我们把我作为一种最终用户，经历整个旅程，假装我感兴趣，半感兴趣，我想从网站上购买。

Does that kind of attract me?

这样的事情吸引我吗？

Is it super clear the value proposition?

价值主张是否非常明确？

And then from there, going through the sign up of the free account or free trial, is that smooth?

然后从那里开始注册免费帐户或免费试用，顺利吗？

And when I begin to use the product, do I get to my aha moment fast or I am very confused and frustrated, abandoned at that moment?

当我开始使用该产品时，我是很快就恍然大悟，还是感到非常困惑和沮丧，在那一刻被抛弃了？

And from there, if I'm like, think this is good, right, I hit my aha moment, I want to buy.

从那时起，如果我觉得这很好，对吧，我顿悟了，我想买。

Can I even buy?

我还可以买吗？

You will never believe, like when I do this audit,, there are so many low hanging fruits usually in this process.

你永远不会相信，就像我进行这次审计时一样，在这个过程中通常有这么多容易实现的目标。

For example, one client, when I go to the checkout flow, the kind of checkout form is so confusing.

例如，一位客户，当我进入结账流程时，那种结账表格非常混乱。

Hila Qu: They ask a bunch of questions that only let's say UK customer need.

Hila Qu：他们问了一堆问题，我们只说英国客户的需求。

Every other places they don't need to answer, but they ask the question anyway.

其他地方他们不需要回答，但他们还是会问问题。

And I as a US based person is very confused and I drop off at that point.

作为一个美国人，我感到非常困惑，然后我就放弃了。

And then there are other things, for example, the aha moments like I talk about.

还有其他事情，例如我所说的顿悟时刻。

I don't know what to do when I land inside a product for the first time, I'm super excited and ready, but I don't know what to do.

当我第一次接触产品时，我不知道该怎么做，我非常兴奋并准备好了，但我不知道该怎么做。

I'm so lost and confused.

我很失落和困惑。

That's usually a pretty big focus area and opportunity area.

这通常是一个相当大的重点领域和机会领域。

Just getting your users to aha moments.

只是让您的用户顿悟时刻。

They are already over so many hurdles here, but don't just turn down them and they leave because it's so confusing.

他们已经克服了这里的许多障碍，但不要只是拒绝他们然后他们就离开，因为这太令人困惑了。

Lenny: It might be helpful just to explain an aha moment.

莱尼：仅仅解释一下顿悟时刻可能会有所帮助。

I know people hear this term a lot.

我知道人们经常听到这个词。

What's a simple way to think about what is an aha moment?

思考什么是顿悟时刻的简单方法是什么？

Hila Qu: I think it as a moment, as a first time a user experienced value of your product.

Hila Qu：我认为这是一个时刻，作为用户第一次体验到你的产品的价值。

So it gets popular because Facebook has this example from the early growth days.

所以它之所以受欢迎，是因为Facebook在早期成长时期就有这个例子。

I think you added 10 friends in seven days, you hit your aha moment.

我认为您在 7 天内添加了 10 个朋友，您顿悟了。

But there are many layers under that.

但其下还有很多层次。

The reason why Facebook used that to define its aha moment is because in early days, if you add these friends, you begin to form some connection.

Facebook 之所以用它来定义它的顿悟时刻，是因为在早期，如果你添加这些朋友，你就开始形成某种联系。

You can see an interesting feed, you can interact with your friends, and that social interaction, it's the core value of Facebook, and Facebook leaves by looking at a lot of data.

你可以看到一个有趣的提要，你可以和你的朋友互动，而社交互动，这是Facebook的核心价值，而Facebook是通过查看大量数据而离开的。

If you meet that data metric criteria it's kind of very likely you will hit that aha moment.

如果您满足该数据指标标准，那么您很可能会顿悟。

But I think for a lot of, especially we're talking about many SaaS product, B2B software, the value of such product is usually either you see a workflow can be supported by this, it can save your time, it can save your money, it can help you make more money, or it just solve this pain point that you never get to solve on your own without a software product.

但我认为对于很多，尤其是我们谈论的很多SaaS产品、B2B软件，这种产品的价值通常要么是你看到一个工作流程可以得到它的支持，它可以节省你的时间，它可以节省你的钱，它可以帮助你赚更多的钱，或者它只是解决这个没有软件产品你自己无法解决的痛点。

Hila Qu: So at GitLab we actually did a bunch of analysis.

Hila Qu：所以在 GitLab，我们实际上做了很多分析。

We're trying to understand what is the aha moment for our new users.

我们试图了解新用户的顿悟时刻是什么。

We ended up have something along the line of two users, two features used in the first 14 days.

我们最终得到了两个用户在前 14 天内使用的一些东西。

So it's very similar to Facebook's kind of format.

所以它与 Facebook 的格式非常相似。

But deep down, because we are a platform, we are a team product, two users is talking about the team components.

但内心深处，因为我们是一个平台，我们是一个团队产品，两个用户谈论的是团队组件。

Whatever the first user is trying and using that is so valuable, he or she is confident to invite another coworker to come in.

无论第一个用户正在尝试和使用什么，只要它非常有价值，他或她就有信心邀请其他同事加入。

That itself is very, very valuable action and indicates this first user is seeing value.

这本身就是非常非常有价值的行动，表明第一个用户正在看到价值。

And if together they use two or more features, that means we are seeing the collaboration, the platform components of the product.

如果它们一起使用两个或多个功能，则意味着我们正在看到协作，即产品的平台组件。

And within the first 14 days, because it has to be reasonably quick but not unrealistic, because we are a complicated product, we're not Facebook, we're not Zynga or a game app, it's hard for you to figure it out in the first day.

在前 14 天内，因为它必须相当快，但又不能不切实际，因为我们是一个复杂的产品，我们不是 Facebook，我们不是 Zynga 或游戏应用程序，所以你很难在第一天就弄清楚。

So yeah, I think it's a very important concept for any PLG company to figure out because that's often the biggest opportunity area I see.

所以，是的，我认为这对于任何 PLG 公司来说都是一个非常重要的概念，因为这通常是我看到的最大的机会领域。

Lenny: Aha moment and activation is often interchangeable, right?

莱尼：顿悟时刻和激活通常可以互换，对吧？

Lenny: So those are kind of two things you'll hear.

莱尼：所以你会听到这两件事。

And just to reframe, re-say what you say, so GitLab's activation slash aha moment milestone was two users using two features in 14 days.

重新组织一下，重新说一下你所说的话，所以 GitLab 的激活斜线顿悟时刻里程碑是两名用户在 14 天内使用了两项功能。

Lenny: And I imagine the way you got to that was you looked at what point does retention improve if they got to a certain milestone, right?

莱尼：我想你做到这一点的方式是你看看如果他们达到某个里程碑，保留率会提高到什么程度，对吧？

Is that roughly how you ?

你大概是这样吗？

Hila Qu: Yeah, exactly.

曲海拉：是的，确实如此。

So there are how you can get to that, right?

那么你可以如何做到这一点，对吗？

First of all, the internal team, our growth team, actually we did some brainstorming.

首先，内部团队，我们的成长团队，实际上我们做了一些头脑风暴。

We think about what are the potential action or behavior that indicate they're getting value.

我们思考哪些潜在的行动或行为表明他们正在获得价值。

We ideally want to do something like they maybe successfully merge their first PR or they successfully run their first pipeline.

理想情况下，我们希望做一些事情，比如他们可能成功合并他们的第一个 PR 或者他们成功运行他们的第一个管道。

All of that.

所有这些。

There are some potential high value actions we can think of.

我们可以想到一些潜在的高价值行动。

We just list all of them.

我们只是列出所有这些。

And then the next step is, we did a correlation analysis to understand, hey, those are the 10 high value actions we believe we want to look at.

下一步是，我们进行了相关性分析来了解，嘿，这些是我们认为我们想要关注的 10 个高价值行动。

If a new user did this action, what's the maybe 30 day conversion rate and...

如果新用户执行此操作，30 天的转化率可能是多少？

Not 30 day, 90 day conversion rate.

不是30天、90天的转化率。

What's the 30 day retention rate?

30 天保留率是多少？

Because we look at both.

因为我们两者都看。

Sometimes you only look at retention or you only look at conversion, it doesn't give you the full picture.

有时您只关注保留率或只关注转化率，它并不能为您提供全面的信息。

Hila Qu: So we look at if you did this action, let's say if, Lenny, you are trying our product, you are able to successfully merge the PR in your first 30 days.

Hila Qu：所以我们看看你是否做了这个操作，假设，Lenny，你正在尝试我们的产品，你能够在前 30 天内成功合并 PR。

Does that improve your likelihood to convert?

这会提高您转化的可能性吗？

Does that improve your likelihood to retain?

这会提高你留任的可能性吗？

And we compare across those 10 high value actions, compare with the average.

我们将这 10 项高价值行动与平均值进行比较。

And we begin to see, oh, some actions actually if you do that, it lift your conversion, lift your retention much bigger.

我们开始看到，哦，实际上如果你这样做的话，它会提高你的转化率，提高你的保留率。

And those are the candidates for potential aha moments.

这些都是潜在的顿悟时刻的候选者。

And from there, the reason why we ended up not picking one single action...

从那时起，我们最终没有选择任何一项行动的原因......

For some products, actually you can pick a single action.

对于某些产品，实际上您可以选择单个操作。

If one action really stands out, I don't know, for Airbnb is probably, you book a hotel, you go to there, you are so happy, you leave a high star review.

如果有一个动作真的很突出，我不知道，因为 Airbnb 可能是，你预订了一家酒店，你去了那里，你很高兴，你留下了高星级评价。

That's the key action for this platform.

这是该平台的关键行动。

Hila Qu: For GitLab, we have so many different workflow components.

Hila Qu：对于 GitLab，我们有很多不同的工作流程组件。

Teams are here for different reasons.

团队出于不同的原因来到这里。

Some are here for security, some are here for like CSAD.

有些是为了安全，有些是为了 CSAD 之类的。

So that's why we ended up combining like two action.

这就是为什么我们最终将两个动作结合起来。

It can be any of the two high value features.

它可以是两个高价值特征中的任何一个。

The next step is actually you need to launch some experiments to try to get more people to do those high value action.

下一步实际上你需要启动一些实验来尝试让更多的人去做那些高价值的行动。

And you then see, do I see higher conversion?

然后你会发现，我是否看到了更高的转化率？

Do I see higher retention?

我是否看到更高的保留率？

Because in data you are only isolating correlation.

因为在数据中你只是隔离相关性。

You are not proving causation.

你没有证明因果关系。

You just saw people who are doing this are more likely to convert.

您刚刚看到这样做的人更有可能转变。

But it doesn't mean if you get people to do that, they will convert.

但这并不意味着如果你让人们这样做，他们就会转变。

So experimentation is the step.

所以实验是一步。

You will finally kind of validate that.

你最终会验证这一点。

Lenny: Hila, this is amazing.

莱尼：海拉，这太棒了。

This is like a mini podcast on activation.

这就像激活时的迷你播客。

We should do another one just on this.

我们应该就此做另一件事。

And then in the show notes, I'll link to a couple posts that I've written with a bunch of advice on setting activation milestones and improving them.

然后在演示笔记中，我将链接到我写的几篇文章，其中包含一些有关设置激活里程碑和改进它们的建议。

I forget if you've contributed to that post or not, but if not, we should add some of these stories.

我忘记您是否为该帖子做出了贡献，但如果没有，我们应该添加其中一些故事。

But let's get back to our core.

但让我们回到我们的核心。

We have enough to talk about on just product led growth.

关于产品主导的增长，我们已经有足够多的话题可以讨论了。

So just to summarize the audit that you do, I wrote some notes as you were talking, and maybe we can keep going from that point.

因此，为了总结您所做的审计，我在您讲话时写了一些笔记，也许我们可以从这一点继续下去。

What you look for when you're auditing a product to see where they may pick a starting point, what I wrote down is, one, are you just excited to try it?

当您审核产品以了解他们可以选择起点时，您会寻找什么，我写下的是，一，您是否很高兴尝试它？

Is the landing page pulling you in?

登陆页面吸引您了吗？

Two, can you actually use it on your own and just try it?

第二，你真的可以自己使用它并尝试一下吗？

Three, do you get to the aha moment where you're like, okay, I get it, it, and then can I actually buy this on my own?

第三，你是否会恍然大悟，说，好吧，我明白了，然后我真的可以自己买这个吗？

Is that roughly the audit?

审核大概就是这样吗？

Is there anything more to that?

还有更多的事情吗？

Hila Qu: Exactly.

曲海拉：没错。

And I also look at their initial first few emails they send to me, because sometimes the email magically can help a lot.

我还会查看他们最初发给我的几封电子邮件，因为有时这些电子邮件会神奇地提供很多帮助。

If I'm frustrated the first time...

如果我第一次感到沮丧...

The other day I'm trying a product, I'm frustrated, I'm like, I will give up.

有一天我正在尝试一个产品，我很沮丧，我想，我会放弃。

And then in the night I saw an email, I'm like, oh, maybe I just click the CTA and give it one more try.

然后在晚上我看到一封电子邮件，我想，哦，也许我只需点击 CTA 并再试一次。

And that time actually I figured out I get to the aha moment.

那一次我发现我真的到了顿悟时刻。

Hila Qu: So I also look at the email, the first initial emails, and then when I map this out, I ask the company to give me the data at very high level for each of the step.

Hila Qu：所以我也会查看电子邮件，第一封初始电子邮件，然后当我制定计划时，我要求公司为每个步骤提供非常高级别的数据。

How many people are on your website?

有多少人访问您的网站？

How many people go through signup?

有多少人通过注册？

How many people hit this aha moment?

有多少人遇到了这个顿悟时刻？

We need to define that.

我们需要定义它。

We need to...

我们需要...

Usually a lot of discussion, like how many people get to the aha moment, how many people started self-checkout and being successful.

通常会有很多讨论，比如有多少人顿悟了，有多少人开始自助结账并取得了成功。

And then like that between my experience from a user perspective and the data, we usually immediately begin to see, oh, this is the biggest opportunity.

然后就像我从用户角度的经验和数据之间一样，我们通常会立即开始看到，哦，这是最大的机会。

Usually activation and conversion are two of the common starting places.

通常激活和转换是两个常见的起点。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Ahrefs.

莱尼：这一集是由 Ahrefs 为您带来的。

You probably know Ahrefs as one of the leading all-in-one SEO tools, used by companies like Facebook, Uber, Shopify, LinkedIn, Pinterest, and thousands more.

您可能知道 Ahrefs 是领先的一体化 SEO 工具之一，Facebook、Uber、Shopify、LinkedIn、Pinterest 等数千家公司都在使用它。

But Ahrefs is not just for big companies.

但 Ahrefs 不仅仅适合大公司。

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借助他们新的 Ahrefs 网站管理员工具，您可以像专业人士一样免费优化您的个人网站。

You can scan your website for over a hundred common SEO issues that might be hurting your performance in search engines, plus get advice on how to fix those errors.

您可以扫描您的网站以查找可能会损害您在搜索引擎中的性能的一百多个常见 SEO 问题，并获取有关如何修复这些错误的建议。

You can have it automatically browse your website's internal and external links, and get actionable insights from your backlink profiles, and you can learn what keywords your website ranks for and see how you stack up against your competitors.

您可以让它自动浏览您网站的内部和外部链接，并从您的反向链接配置文件中获取可操作的见解，您还可以了解您的网站对哪些关键字进行排名，并了解您与竞争对手的竞争情况。

Visit ahrefs.com/awt and start improving your website's visibility.

访问 ahrefs.com/awt 并开始提高您网站的可见度。

That's ahrefs.

那是ahrefs。

com/awt.

com/awt。

Lenny: Okay, so let's get into that then.

莱尼：好的，那么我们开始吧。

So you've done this audit, what other advice do you have for folks to figure out where they should start and invest in that part of the product to help launch product-led growth?

那么您已经完成了这次审核，您还有什么其他建议可以让人们弄清楚他们应该从哪里开始并投资于产品的这一部分，以帮助启动产品主导的增长？

Hila Qu: You can do a audit like this yourself, right.

曲海拉：这样的审计你自己也可以做吧。

Just imagine if you are a B2C user trying to buy a product, you want it to be easy.

试想一下，如果您是一名 B2C 用户，想要购买产品，您希望购买过程变得简单。

Ideally, PLG for B2B can be that easy as well.

理想情况下，B2B 的 PLG 也可以如此简单。

So go through that process and identify, where is confusing, where do you get stuck?

因此，经历这个过程并确定哪里令人困惑，哪里陷入困境？

If you find-

如果你发现——

Hila Qu: ...

曲海拉：……

where is confusing.

哪里令人困惑。

Where do you get stuck if you find that you have a problem with activation, meaning if you enter into the product you are like what do I do, I don't know what should I do, and maybe I just left.

如果你发现你激活有问题，你会卡在哪里，也就是说，如果你进入产品你就像我该怎么办，我不知道我应该做什么，也许我就离开了。

And then, if that's the biggest opportunity, activation, then you need to think about find the right aha moment metric as the first step, as we just talked about, because that's the success, that's the goalpost.

然后，如果这是最大的机会，激活，那么你需要考虑找到正确的顿悟时刻指标作为第一步，正如我们刚才谈到的，因为这就是成功，这就是球门柱。

And then, design a product experience to help more people together.

然后，设计产品体验来帮助更多的人。

And I usually think about do is better than show is better than tell, meaning you want to remove all the frictions and somehow give them a warm start, give them some sample template, give them some sample thing they can play with initially in that very moment already, and you can supplement that with your email to bring them to the product if they don't do that.

我通常认为做比展示比讲述更好，这意味着你想要消除所有摩擦并以某种方式给他们一个温暖的开始，给他们一些示例模板，给他们一些他们可以在那个时刻开始使用的示例东西，如果他们不这样做，你可以用你的电子邮件补充它，将他们带到产品中。

So that's activation.

这就是激活。

If activation is okay, but your conversion, your self-check checkout flow, usually there are also room for improvement.

如果激活没问题，但你的转化、你的自助结帐流程，通常还有改进的空间。

Many company I work with, when I try to buy, I cannot even find where to buy.

我工作过的很多公司，当我尝试购买时，我什至找不到在哪里购买。

It's very hard to find where do I click to start this checkout process, or they may have some frictions in the checkout flow where it's not localized.

很难找到我应该点击哪里来开始这个结帐过程，或者他们在未本地化的结帐流程中可能会遇到一些摩擦。

One company, when I look at their data, they find that India has very low success rate, which is expected, but we begin to say it's because the payment solution they choose actually doesn't support that market well.

一家公司，当我查看他们的数据时，他们发现印度的成功率非常低，这是预料之中的，但我们开始说这是因为他们选择的支付解决方案实际上并不能很好地支持该市场。

And they added another payment solution, immediately they are seeing much better success rate.

他们添加了另一种支付解决方案，立即就看到了更好的成功率。

And if they're already in the checkout, you don't want to lose any of them, right?

如果它们已经在结账时，您不想丢失任何一个，对吧？

Just do a hundred experiments to get to as much higher kind of commercial possible, because you don't want to lose any of them.

只需进行一百次实验即可获得尽可能高的商业效果，因为您不想失去其中任何一个。

So activation, conversion, usually are two great place to start.

因此，激活和转化通常是两个很好的起点。

Hila Qu: And then from there, I would say think about your PQL/PQA, motion, which is the other conversion pass, which is if you also want to have sales blended into this, right, product-led sales motion, how do you set up the structure, the foundation so that you can know what are some data signal to tell you those are better leads?

Hila Qu：然后从那里开始，我想说想想你的 PQL/PQA 动议，这是另一个转换过程，如果你也想将销售融入到这个，对的，以产品为主导的销售动议中，你如何建立结构和基础，以便你可以知道哪些数据信号可以告诉你那些是更好的销售线索？

And what are some customer criteria, in terms of size segment, you should set up, how do you get those data, and then how do you hand this to your sales team, how they can close using those data, use this knowledge?

就规模细分而言，您应该设置哪些客户标准，如何获取这些数据，然后如何将其交给您的销售团队，他们如何使用这些数据来关闭，使用这些知识？

That's another very big opportunity area.

这是另一个非常大的机会领域。

That's a bigger effort, compared to those two low-hanging fruits.

与这两个容易实现的目标相比，这是一个更大的努力。

Hila Qu: And the last thing I would say, product-led acquisition is a great place to start.

Hila Qu：我要说的最后一件事是，以产品为主导的收购是一个很好的起点。

If your product is a collaboration software, think about Airtable and it's Figma, right?

如果您的产品是协作软件，请考虑 Airtable，它就是 Figma，对吧？

As part of my workflow, I invite my team to join, I spread this out.

作为我工作流程的一部分，我邀请我的团队加入，我将其展开。

If you have that use case, you can build that into a product that's awesome, that's very powerful.

如果你有这样的用例，你可以将其构建成一个非常棒、非常强大的产品。

Lenny: So there's a lot there.

莱尼：所以那里有很多东西。

So let me try to summarize what you just shared and how it connects.

因此，让我尝试总结一下您刚刚分享的内容以及它们之间的联系。

So you have a self-serve product, you've gotten to a point where you can sign up and try something for free?

那么您有一个自助产品，您已经可以注册并免费试用一些东西了吗？

Lenny: And then you do this audit of where along this journey do we think the biggest opportunities lie and the most leverage lives?

莱尼：然后你会审查我们认为在这个旅程中最大的机会和最有影响力的生活在哪里？

And you have these, I think, four buckets of opportunity?

我想，你有这四桶机会吗？

Lenny: Acquisition, which is top of funnel, do you want to double down and invest there first, or activation, which is help people see the value more quickly?

Lenny：收购是漏斗的顶部，你想先加倍投资，还是激活，帮助人们更快地看到价值？

Lenny: Bucket three would be, you called it conversion, which essentially help them buy it more efficiently?

莱尼：第三桶是，你称之为转换，这本质上可以帮助他们更有效地购买？

Lenny: And then there's a bucket of retention, of just keeping them around longer, which I don't know if you mentioned this, but I know that's probably not where you want to start, so it's even not worth chatting about too much.

莱尼：然后还有一桶保留，只是让他们停留更长时间，我不知道你是否提到过这一点，但我知道这可能不是你想要开始的地方，所以甚至不值得谈论太多。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

And so the question, basically, a founder or product team has to decide is which of these three buckets do they go in on when they're trying to add product growth, acquisition, activation or conversion?

因此，基本上，创始人或产品团队必须决定的问题是，当他们试图增加产品增长、收购、激活或转化时，他们应该选择这三个方面中的哪一个？

Lenny: It'd be cool, maybe just one example of each of these three buckets, like what's a product that did a good job here?

莱尼：这很酷，也许只是这三个桶中每一个的一个例子，比如什么产品在这里做得很好？

And then you also talked about how to know which one to start with.

然后你还谈到了如何知道从哪一个开始。

Maybe just again, just a quick summary of you should probably start activation if this, if you have something like that?

也许再次，只是一个快速总结，如果这样的话，您可能应该开始激活，如果您有类似的东西？

Hila Qu: You should probably start with activation.

Hila Qu：你可能应该从激活开始。

Activation is actually a common good starting place for most B2B software.

对于大多数 B2B 软件来说，激活实际上是一个常见的良好起点。

Hila Qu: Because usually B2B softwares are not designed to really get you to use quickly, historically.

Hila Qu：因为通常 B2B 软件并不是为了真正让你快速使用而设计的。

A good example, there are, I think, all the best PLG companies, they do a awesome job.

一个很好的例子，我认为，所有最好的 PLG 公司都做得很好。

That's almost like my criteria to say whether this is a great PLG product or not.

这几乎就像我判断这是否是一款出色的 PLG 产品的标准。

Think about Miro, as an example.

以米罗为例。

If you go through their activation experience and sign up to usage, they ask very limited questions, very targeted.

如果你体验一下他们的激活体验并注册使用，他们会问非常有限的问题，而且很有针对性。

They drop you, kind of, they ask you about your use case, what are you here for?

他们会放弃你，询问你的用例，你来这里的目的是什么？

Are here to do a brainstorm session?

来这里参加头脑风暴会议吗？

Are you here to develop a roadmap?

您是来制定路线图的吗？

And they quickly gave you templates to get started.

他们很快就为您提供了入门模板。

Just like in maybe five minutes, you finish the entire journey from go to the website and sign up, answer a few questions, and you are already using the template they provided to do the thing you want to do.

就像大约五分钟一样，您完成了从访问网站并注册、回答几个问题的整个过程，并且您已经在使用他们提供的模板来做您想做的事情。

That's time to value.

是时候体现价值了。

That's a success.

这就是成功。

I think that's a really great standard for all the PLG, like a B2B product, try to follow.

我认为对于所有 PLG（如 B2B 产品）来说，这是一个非常好的标准，需要努力遵循。

So that's activation is usually a good place.

因此，激活通常是一个好地方。

If you don't know where to start, do that.

如果您不知道从哪里开始，那就这样做吧。

Hila Qu: And then conversion, I would say, is a place, again, worth investing, but there are two layers.

Hila Qu：我想说，转换是一个值得投资的地方，但有两层。

One is the self-check-hub flow, just do some experiments there.

一种是self-check-hub流程，在那里做一些实验。

You can actually go to any E-commerce website, like, I don't know, go to Lululemon, go to Amazon, make your conversion process as easy as theirs.

你实际上可以去任何电子商务网站，比如，我不知道，去Lululemon，去亚马逊，让你的转换过程像他们的一样简单。

That should be your goal.

那应该是你的目标。

The consumers shouldn't be confused about complicated pricing, where to find all of that, so that's a place always worth investing, testing more, because that's revenue so close to be added into your book.

消费者不应该对复杂的定价感到困惑，在哪里可以找到所有这些，所以这是一个永远值得投资、进行更多测试的地方，因为这很接近可以添加到你的书中的收入。

Hila Qu: And then the PQL/PQA part, the other more-complicated path, I would say that's something you want to figure out activation and self-checkout a little bit, and you want to have some reasonable user number and then invest there, otherwise it can be a little bit jumping too fast and jumping too ahead.

Hila Qu：然后是 PQL/PQA 部分，另一个更复杂的路径，我想说这是你想要弄清楚激活和自助结帐的东西，你想要有一些合理的用户数量，然后在那里投资，否则它可能有点跳得太快和跳得太超前。

And the acquisition, a product-led acquisition is a great place to invest, if you have a collaboration workflow, you have some inherent, internal viral components in your products.

而收购，以产品为主导的收购是一个很好的投资场所，如果你有一个协作工作流程，那么你的产品中就有一些固有的、内部的病毒成分。

Think about Figma, think about Calendarly even, right?

想想Figma，甚至想想Calendarly，对吧？

It can spread.

它可以传播。

This product is so easy.

这个产品是如此简单。

You can build something to allow it to spread on its own.

你可以建造一些东西让它自行传播。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I'm hoping that was really helpful, because I think a lot of people are like where do I start, what do I do to help start moving down this road of product growth?

我希望这确实有帮助，因为我认为很多人都想知道我从哪里开始，我该怎么做才能帮助开始沿着这条产品增长的道路前进？

And what I'm hearing generally is just activation is probably where you want to focus, which is essentially getting people to your value quicker.

我通常听到的只是激活可能是你想要关注的地方，这本质上是让人们更快地了解你的价值。

And what's cool about that, and we had a podcast with Lauryn Isford from formerly Airtable, now at Notion, talking about all the ways to do that.

这很酷，我们与来自前 Airtable、现在在 Notion 的 Lauryn Isford 做了一个播客，讨论了实现这一目标的所有方法。

And interestingly, one of the biggest levers for retention, and moving retention, is often onboarding and improving activation, so win-win.

有趣的是，保留和移动保留的最大杠杆之一通常是入职和提高激活，因此是双赢的。

Hila Qu: Yeah, definitely.

曲海拉：是的，当然。

And I could talk a little bit about retention expansion, if you think that's helpful as well?

我可以谈谈保留扩展，如果您认为这也有帮助的话？

Hila Qu: Yeah, I know that I didn't talk about that in the post, and there are people asking, hey, do you plan to write another post on this specific topic?

曲海拉：是的，我知道我在帖子中没有谈到这一点，有人问，嘿，你打算再写一篇关于这个特定主题的帖子吗？

So the reason why I didn't cover too much retention expansion is, as you mentioned, it's not usually a first place to start.

因此，正如您所提到的，我没有讨论太多保留扩展的原因是，它通常不是第一个开始的地方。

I call retention the messy middle.

我把保留称为混乱的中间。

It's actually a messy part of the entire funnel.

它实际上是整个漏斗中混乱的一部分。

A quick activation, conversion, those are fast.

快速激活、转换，这些都很快。

Those are almost sometimes shorter time span, right?

有时这些时间跨度几乎较短，对吧？

You have a lot of never, and you can test very quickly, and that acquisition is a very big leverage.

你有很多从未做过的事情，你可以很快地进行测试，而这种收购是一个非常大的杠杆。

You need to get more users, always.

您始终需要获得更多用户。

Hila Qu: Retention is super important, but it's a little bit messy.

Hila Qu：保留非常重要，但有点混乱。

It's over a very long period of time, and your customers can be, at any given moment, they can be retained or not, like if they just cancel or they just decided not to use anymore, you already lost them, so it's a very messy part.

这是一个很长的时间段，你的客户可以在任何特定的时刻，他们可以保留或不保留，就像如果他们只是取消或决定不再使用，你已经失去了他们，所以这是一个非常混乱的部分。

But how I think about retention, there are two steps.

但我如何看待保留，有两个步骤。

One is how to build a habit in their usage pattern, so that they are using this maybe every week, every day.

一是如何在他们的使用模式中养成习惯，以便他们可能每周、每天都使用它。

The key to do that is, first of all, your product need to have a high enough frequency.

做到这一点的关键是，首先你的产品需要有足够高的频率。

If you are using this once per month, it's not likely you can build this into a habit.

如果您每月使用一次，您不太可能将其养成习惯。

Hila Qu: Before GitLab, I worked at Acorns.

Hila Qu：在 GitLab 之前，我在 Acorns 工作。

We started as an investment app, and the whole thing is passive investment, passive investing.

我们一开始是一个投资应用程序，整个事情就是被动投资，被动投资。

You bought some ETFs, and then you basically don't even need to check, and you just keep adding money and it will grow, and after 10 years is awesome.

你买了一些ETF，然后你基本上甚至不需要检查，你只要不断加钱，它就会增长，10年后就很棒了。

It's actually the right investment philosophy, but when I worked as a head of growth, it made a big challenge for me, because think about set and forget it.

这实际上是正确的投资理念，但当我担任增长主管时，这对我来说是一个很大的挑战，因为想了想就忘记了。

They don't even need to go back to a product to be successful.

他们甚至不需要回到产品就能获得成功。

And that make it very hard, as a head of growth, to drive engagement, drive retention.

这使得作为增长负责人很难提高参与度、提高保留率。

I don't even know whether they're retained or not, if they are not coming back, right?

我什至不知道他们是否被保留，如果他们不回来的话，对吗？

I can only gauge from other indicators.

我只能从其他指标来衡量。

So I think one thing I would say about building habit is think about how to build those habit feature or collaboration feature into your workflow already, into the product already.

因此，我认为关于养成习惯我要说的一件事是考虑如何将这些习惯功能或协作功能构建到您的工作流程中，已经构建到产品中。

That is the reason they can retain, fundamentally, if it's high frequency, if it involves collaboration with other people, if it's part of their workflow.

从根本上来说，这就是他们可以保留的原因，如果它是高频率的，如果它涉及与其他人的协作，如果它是他们工作流程的一部分。

So that's the first step.

这是第一步。

You can obviously use a lot of the looks to reinforce that.

显然你可以使用很多外观来强化这一点。

You can send them an email if they take certain action, and get them back, and to repeat that action, but fundamentally you need to build that into your product.

如果他们采取某些行动，您可以向他们发送电子邮件，然后让他们回来，并重复该操作，但从根本上讲，您需要将其构建到您的产品中。

Hila Qu: And then the next part around retention is I actually think extension is part of retention.

Hila Qu：关于保留的下一部分实际上是我认为扩展是保留的一部分。

Basically you already have a steady usage flow.

基本上你已经有了稳定的使用流程。

You are using this habitually every week, every day.

您每周、每天都会习惯性地使用它。

What are the right moment to prompt you to think about maybe buying more?

什么时候最适合促使您考虑购买更多产品？

And there are three buckets of product-led extension.

以产品为主导的扩展分为三类。

The first one is up upgrade to a higher tier.

第一个是升级到更高级别。

The second one is buying more seeds, buying more license.

第二个是购买更多的种子，购买更多的许可证。

The third one is if you have some sort of a consumption add-on component, just consuming more, right?

第三个是如果你有某种消费附加组件，只是消费更多，对吧？

Like for GitLab, you can go from bronze tier to a silver tier, you can go to a higher tier, and then you can buy more seeds, and you can also buy more CSCD minutes to consume.

就像GitLab一样，你可以从青铜级升级到白银级，你可以到更高的级别，然后你可以购买更多的种子，也可以购买更多的CSCD分钟来消耗。

Those are all the different moments.

这些都是不同的时刻。

How you can do that is really understand data, understand usage, and trigger a lot of the right conversation at the right moment to the right person.

要做到这一点，你需要真正理解数据、理解用法，并在正确的时间向正确的人触发大量正确的对话。

Hila Qu: And you can, again, a lot of similar tactics you use in activation conversion actually can be beautifully applied in expansion, because it's almost a combination of getting people to the aha of that feature, use that feature, try that feature, getting them to convert.

Hila Qu：同样，您在激活转换中使用的许多类似策略实际上可以完美地应用于扩展中，因为这几乎是让人们对该功能产生恍然大悟、使用该功能、尝试该功能、让他们进行转换的组合。

Lenny: You're leaving all these gold bricks that I have to resist not following and getting off track with, because there's so much, and like retention is its own conversation.

莱尼：你留下了所有这些金砖，我必须抵制不跟随和偏离轨道，因为有太多，就像保留本身就是对话。

We could have maybe just one question along those lines.

沿着这一思路，我们可能只有一个问题。

What's something that you've launched that had a tremendous impact on retention?

您推出的哪些产品对保留率产生了巨大影响？

Is there an example of just like, wow, that really had a big impact, you talk about frequency maybe, but what comes to mind?

有没有一个例子，哇，这确实产生了很大的影响，你可能会谈论频率，但是你会想到什么？

Hila Qu: I can share some of my example at a course my-

Hila Qu：我可以在课程中分享一些我的例子——

Hila Qu: I think there are two things.

曲海拉：我觉得有两点。

One thing is actually very similar to what you just said.

有一点其实和你刚才说的很相似。

When I was asked to work on retention, I did a bunch of analysis.

当我被要求从事保留工作时，我做了很多分析。

The biggest leverage for me is actually activation.

对我来说最大的杠杆实际上是激活。

So I ended up doing tons of experiments in activation.

所以我最终做了大量的激活实验。

I identified what are the features for users to take experience value quickly so that they are more likely to retain.

我确定了哪些功能可以让用户快速获取体验价值，从而更有可能保留。

For us, it's a feature called recurring investment, which makes sense in hindsight, but at that time nobody's caring about that.

对我们来说，这是一个称为经常性投资的功能，事后看来这是有道理的，但当时没有人关心这一点。

We have some other very cool investment features called roundup investment, so nobody is really paying a lot of a attention on this, but when I look at data, I saw recurring investment has a high correlation with retention.

我们还有一些其他非常酷的投资功能，称为综合投资，所以没有人真正关注这一点，但当我查看数据时，我发现经常性投资与保留率具有很高的相关性。

So I did a lot of work trying to get more people to set this up, and which has been a great success, actually, in a very short period of time.

所以我做了很多工作试图让更多的人建立这个，实际上，在很短的时间内取得了巨大的成功。

Hila Qu: And then from there, I would say we begin to add more use cases that has a higher frequency, like I mentioned, right?

Hila Qu：然后从那里开始，我们开始添加更多频率更高的用例，就像我提到的，对吗？

If you only come here once per month to check our investment, it's very hard to retain you.

如果你每个月只来一次检查我们的投资，就很难留住你。

We don't have any lever to engagement with you as well, if you are not in the product.

如果您不在产品中，我们也没有任何手段与您互动。

So we ended up adding IRA account, retirement account.

所以我们最终添加了 IRA 账户，即退休账户。

We ended up adding spending account, like a debit card, like more high-frequency use cases.

我们最终添加了支出帐户，例如借记卡，例如更多的高频用例。

Those use cases come with higher frequency and better retention by nature, so now you change the problem from how do I improve retention to how do I drive adoption of higher-frequency use cases?

这些用例本质上具有更高的频率和更好的保留率，因此现在您将问题从如何提高保留率转变为如何推动更高频率用例的采用？

So I did, again, a bunch of experiments how to drive more adoption of retirement account.

因此，我再次进行了一系列实验，如何推动更多人采用退休账户。

Once you have a retirement account, an IRA, there's tax consequences, all of that.

一旦你有了退休账户（IRA），就会产生税务后果，所有这些。

There it's very hard for you to leave.

在那里你很难离开。

So you flip the question into, again, adoption/activation problem in that case as well.

因此，在这种情况下，您也可以将问题再次转化为采用/激活问题。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Thank you for sharing those.

感谢您分享这些。

Oh man, there's so many other things we could talk about retention, but we have enough to talk about on product-led growth.

天啊，关于保留，我们还有很多其他的事情可以谈论，但关于产品主导的增长，我们有足够多的事情可以谈论。

So there's two other areas that I want to touch on.

我想谈谈另外两个领域。

One is data and infrastructure, and what people should know about how to set that up for success, and the other is hiring your team, and how to build out your product-led growth team.

一是数据和基础设施，以及人们应该了解如何为成功做好准备，另一个是雇用您的团队，以及如何建立以产品为主导的增长团队。

So starting with the data piece, maybe just as a big picture, just like what are the buckets of data and infrastructure people should be thinking about that they're going to have to invest in or should start thinking about early?

因此，从数据开始，也许只是一个大局，就像人们应该考虑哪些数据和基础设施是他们必须投资的，或者应该尽早开始考虑的？

Hila Qu: I think there are two big buckets.

曲海拉：我觉得有两个大桶。

The first bucket is product usage data.

第一个桶是产品使用数据。

As I mentioned, a lot of B2B software, they're really lacking in that, because when you sell via sales team, you don't need to know so many details, so granular usage data, all of that.

正如我提到的，很多 B2B 软件确实缺乏这一点，因为当你通过销售团队进行销售时，你不需要知道那么多细节、那么精细的使用数据等等。

The second bucket is I call this customer 360 database, because product usage data is one component, is the most essential.

第二个桶我把这个客户称为360数据库，因为产品使用数据是其中一个组成部分，是最本质的。

In order for your product-led gross motion to be successful, you also need to connect that with your marketing teams, marketing campaigns, your CRM, your sales force, who are the customers, prospects, what their stage.

为了让以产品为主导的总体行动取得成功，您还需要将其与您的营销团队、营销活动、CRM、销售人员、客户是谁、潜在客户以及他们所处的阶段联系起来。

So those ideally need to be connected so that you have a 360 picture of your customer.

因此，理想情况下需要将这些连接起来，以便您可以 360 度了解客户。

If I have an Airbnb as a potential, like a target account, do I know there are users from Airbnb that are using my product, which features are they using, and do I send any marketing campaigns to each of them, do they respond, all of that.

如果我有一个潜在的 Airbnb，比如目标帐户，我是否知道 Airbnb 的用户正在使用我的产品，他们使用哪些功能，我是否向他们每个人发送任何营销活动，他们是否做出回应，所有这些。

All of those ideally need to be connected, but in reality is all over the place.

理想情况下，所有这些都需要连接起来，但实际上却无处不在。

It's all in its own tools in most of the B2B companies.

大多数 B2B 公司都拥有自己的工具。

Lenny: What are just some tools that you think people should check out, start with maybe?

莱尼：您认为人们应该首先检查哪些工具？

What's Hila's recommendations on an initial stack or areas to explore, in terms of tooling?

在工具方面，Hila 对于初始堆栈或需要探索的领域有哪些建议？

Hila Qu: I say there are two piece.

曲海拉：我说有两块。

One is infra, the other piece are some tools that are kind of secondary.

一个是基础设施，另一个是一些次要的工具。

So from infrastructure perspective, on data tool, my first tool usually, one is some sort of data hub segment, right?

因此，从基础设施的角度来看，在数据工具上，我的第一个工具通常是某种数据中心部分，对吧？

This next one is some sort of a product analytics tool.

下一个是某种产品分析工具。

Think about Amplitude.

考虑一下振幅。

I know PostHog is actually a pretty popular one.

我知道 PostHog 实际上是一个非常受欢迎的。

It's an open-source product analytics tool.

它是一个开源产品分析工具。

There are Mixpanel, Pandle, all of that.

有 Mixpanel、Pandle，所有这些。

So have some sort of data hub, data collection tool, and have some sort of product analytics tool.

因此，要有某种数据中心、数据收集工具，并有某种产品分析工具。

That's the data infrastructure.

这就是数据基础设施。

Hila Qu: And then you need to have an experimentation tool because, like I said, you cannot just imagine you build everything and everything works perfectly.

Hila Qu：然后你需要有一个实验工具，因为就像我说的，你不能想象你构建了所有东西并且一切都完美运行。

So you need either like Optimizely, I know Amplitude has some experimentation components.

所以你需要像 Optimizely 这样的东西，我知道 Amplitude 有一些实验组件。

Eppo is a new and upcoming one.

Eppo 是一款即将推出的新产品。

You need some tool to allow you to do experimentation.

您需要一些工具来进行实验。

Hila Qu: The third piece I think that's pretty essential, I counted in the infra, is some sort of a lifecycle marketing tool.

Hila Qu：我认为非常重要的第三部分，我在下文中提到过，是某种生命周期营销工具。

I know many B2B companies, they use HubSpot or they use something for their email marketing, but those are usually least nurturing.

我知道很多 B2B 公司，他们使用 HubSpot 或者使用一些东西进行电子邮件营销，但这些通常是最不利于培养的。

And it's very different from lifecycle marketing tool, meaning you need to connect with Segment, Amplitude.

而且它与生命周期营销工具有很大不同，这意味着你需要连接Segment、Amplitude。

You know what customers are doing your product, your design, your email, your in-app, your push notification, based on their behavior, at the right moment, to the right person.

您可以根据客户的行为，在正确的时间向正确的人了解客户正在使用您的产品、您的设计、您的电子邮件、您的应用内、您的推送通知。

And you measure success by do they take the right action in a product, versus the lead nurture email marketing tool is do I get them to read the article, open the email, I add 10 points to their lead score, and they are a next step further in their list funnel?

你衡量成功的标准是他们是否在产品中采取了正确的行动，而领先培育电子邮件营销工具是我让他们阅读文章，打开电子邮件，我为他们的领先分数添加 10 分，然后他们在列表漏斗中进一步前进？

So, data tool, experimentation tool, lifecycle marketing tool, those are the infra.

所以，数据工具、实验工具、生命周期营销工具，这些都是基础设施。

Hila Qu: And then from there, there are a lot of PLD tools you can add on top to make your day-to-day much easier.

Hila Qu：然后，您可以添加很多 PLD 工具，让您的日常工作变得更加轻松。

Just to start, as so like that are most essential for acquisition, you need to have some sort of a like a data enrichment tool.

首先，因为这对于获取来说是最重要的，您需要有某种类似数据丰富工具的工具。

Think about ZoomInfo, Clearbit, because the biggest difference between B2B and B2C is that you still need to know about their company.

想想ZoomInfo、Clearbit，因为B2B和B2C最大的区别就是你还是需要了解他们的公司。

You want to know this person, but you also want to know this person's company, right?

你想了解这个人，但你也想了解这个人的公司，对吧？

That's a very important thing, and you can get a lot out of those data enrichment tool, and then you can design your journey differently based on that.

这是一件非常重要的事情，您可以从这些数据丰富工具中获得很多东西，然后您可以基于此以不同的方式设计您的旅程。

Hila Qu: For activation, a lot of my clients are finding a lot of value in those tools like Appcues, User-Led, basically the tools that allow you to build onboarding flow quickly in a product without engineer kind of resource.

Hila Qu：对于激活，我的很多客户都发现 Appcues、User-Led 等工具具有很大的价值，这些工具基本上可以让您在产品中快速构建入门流程，而无需工程师资源。

So you need to do some initial integration, but as soon as you did that a marketing manager, a PM or someone, can just build some customized onboarding step-by-step flows himself.

因此，您需要进行一些初始集成，但一旦完成，营销经理、产品经理或其他人就可以自己构建一些定制的分步流程。

I think that's quite neat, because you need to test the tongue in that area.

我认为这非常巧妙，因为您需要测试该区域的舌头。

Hila Qu: And in terms of conversion, I would say there are many product-led growth, product-led sales tools.

Hila Qu：就转化而言，我想说有很多产品主导的增长、产品主导的销售工具。

I think those are great.

我认为这些都很棒。

If you want to build out your PQL/PQA conversion pass, think about Endgame, Pocus, Tableau and Pace.

如果您想构建 PQL/PQA 转换过程，请考虑 Endgame、Pocus、Tableau 和 Pace。

There are a couple of them.

其中有几个。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

Amazing.

惊人的。

That was an awesome list and really well-structured.

这是一个很棒的清单，而且结构非常好。

Is there anything else along the data or infrastructure piece that you want to touch on before we move on to hiring and the team?

在我们继续招聘和团队之前，您还想谈一下数据或基础设施方面的其他内容吗？

Hila Qu: I just want to go back to the point, as I mentioned, product-led growth is data-led growth deep down.

曲海拉：我只想回到正题，正如我提到的，产品主导的增长在本质上是数据主导的增长。

So in most of the situation when I see a company want to get started, where they are really missing or they need to invest more, is data.

因此，在大多数情况下，当我看到一家公司想要起步时，他们确实缺少或需要投入更多，那就是数据。

So if you identify you have a gap in this area, don't feel bad as well.

因此，如果您发现自己在这方面存在差距，也不要感到难过。

A lot of pretty big companies are in the same shoes, and if you can't invest the time, money, the team, the tool, to figure this out, the benefit of this, right, the data collection, understanding usage data, can not only power your PLG motion, it can really power your entire product team, even your customer success team.

很多相当大的公司都处于同样的境地，如果你不能投入时间、金钱、团队、工具来解决这个问题，那么数据收集、理解使用数据的好处不仅可以推动你的 PLG 行动，它还可以真正推动你的整个产品团队，甚至你的客户成功团队。

Now you gave them the ingredients they need to develop the next feature, based on not only what your top customer asked for, but also what everybody's using, right?

现在，您为他们提供了开发下一个功能所需的成分，不仅基于您的顶级客户的要求，还基于每个人都在使用的内容，对吗？

Hila Qu: Your customer success team can take a much deeper view in understanding what the clients are using, rather than just talk with the executives from the client and get a rough gauge of the situation.

Hila Qu：您的客户成功团队可以更深入地了解客户正在使用的产品，而不是仅仅与客户的高管交谈并粗略地了解情况。

So I think it is a area worth investing, and every B2B company should be investing in.

所以我认为这是一个值得投资的领域，每个B2B公司都应该投资。

Lenny: I'm trying to channel what listeners might be thinking right now, and I imagine some people might be like what if I pick the wrong tool?

莱尼：我正在尝试传达听众现在的想法，我想有些人可能会想，如果我选择了错误的工具怎么办？

I'm kind of stressed, I have to do all this research.

我有点压力，我必须做所有这些研究。

I'm kind of worried about starting, because it'll set me up for failure later.

我对开始有点担心，因为这会让我以后失败。

Which of these buckets do you think is most important to get right, right from the beginning, and any advice on how to just avoid messing that up?

您认为从一开始就正确处理这些问题中的哪一个是最重要的？关于如何避免搞砸这一点有什么建议吗？

Hila Qu: To get started, I would say probably a product analytics tool is the first step, and maybe the data hub, such as Segment.

Hila Qu：首先，我想说可能产品分析工具是第一步，也许还有数据中心，例如 Segment。

So if you have Segment and particle tools like that, it allows you to plug into so many different tools.

因此，如果您有这样的分段和粒子工具，它就可以让您插入许多不同的工具。

You can basically try all the different tools, and if it doesn't work, you just flip a switch, you can try another tool.

你基本上可以尝试所有不同的工具，如果它不起作用，你只需翻转一个开关，你就可以尝试另一个工具。

So there is a benefit there, but it is expensive, so I know companies may just go right into the product analytics tool.

所以这是有好处的，但它很昂贵，所以我知道公司可能会直接使用产品分析工具。

I would say it's hard to get it wrong completely, right?

我想说很难完全弄错，对吧？

Hila Qu: In order for a product analytics tool to be meaningful, the first step is you need to collect the data, you need to do some instrumentation, you need to have the foundation.

Hila Qu：为了让产品分析工具有意义，第一步是你需要收集数据，你需要做一些检测，你需要有基础。

And then, because it's garbage in, garbage out, if you send a bunch of garbage data into your product analytics tool, your analyst will be just even more confusing, right?

然后，因为它是垃圾输入，垃圾输出，如果你将一堆垃圾数据发送到你的产品分析工具中，你的分析师会更加困惑，对吗？

It's like he doesn't know whether to trust the data, what to use.

就好像他不知道是否应该相信这些数据，该使用什么。

So a lot of company I work with, the first step is maybe not looking into tool, but do an audit of your data instrumentation situation, to understand how many of the key actions are intact, is the format correct, is the data, what are the gaps?

因此，与我合作的很多公司，第一步可能不是研究工具，而是对您的数据仪器情况进行审核，了解有多少关键操作是完整的，格式是否正确，数据是否正确，有哪些差距？

And you may need to do some re-instrumenta ...

而且您可能需要进行一些重新检测...

Hila Qu: Right, what are the gaps?

曲海拉：对了，有哪些差距？

And you may need to do some reinstrumentation, reformatting and things like that before you even plug into a product analytics to make it useful.

在插入产品分析以使其发挥作用之前，您可能需要进行一些重新检测、重新格式化等操作。

Lenny: For someone that may want to do that audit, is there a thing you would point them to, or, I don't know, a blog, a course, something to help them understand if they're doing it right?

莱尼：对于可能想要进行审核的人，您是否可以向他们指出一些东西，或者，我不知道，一个博客，一个课程，一些东西可以帮助他们了解他们是否做得正确？

Or is it like, "Bring Hila on," and you need someone like you to kind of help them through it?

或者就像是“带上海拉”，你需要像你这样的人来帮助他们度过难关？

Hila Qu: No, you can bring me, but you don't have to bring me.

曲海拉：不，你可以带我，但你不必带我。

I think there are, if you search on Google just the data dictionary, or data product usage, data audit, a lot of companies published template and spreadsheet you can use.

我认为，如果你在谷歌上搜索数据字典，或者数据产品使用情况、数据审计，很多公司发布的模板和电子表格你可以使用。

I can even send you a few afterwards.

之后我什至可以给你发一些。

Hila Qu: And then you can just scroll through.

Hila Qu：然后你就可以滚动浏览。

Basically the key idea is go through your product experience, identify the key actions, and go through your data instrumentation and see, "Do they match?"

基本上，关键思想是回顾您的产品体验，确定关键操作，然后查看您的数据工具并查看“它们匹配吗？”

Hila Qu: And the success of this is you identify the gaps and eventually you want to establish something called the data dictionary.

Hila Qu：成功的关键在于你找到了差距，最终你想要建立一个叫做数据字典的东西。

I basically do that for a lot of my clients.

我基本上为很多客户这样做。

And the data dictionary will include, here are all the key actions, what's the event name for each of those, and what are the property and things like that.

数据字典将包括所有关键操作、每个操作的事件名称以及属性和类似内容。

Hila Qu: But you now know, "Hey, I have this action track, this is the name.

曲海拉：但是你现在知道了，“嘿，我有一首动作曲目，这就是名字。

If I have a new product manager or analyst, we can all refer to this." And everyone know the same definition rather than people are interpreting differently.

如果我有新的产品经理或分析师，我们都可以参考这个。”每个人都知道相同的定义，而不是人们的解释不同。

So that's a very important part to success even before the tooling.

因此，即使在使用工具之前，这也是成功的一个非常重要的部分。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

It also reminds me a previous guest, Crystal Widjaja, has a awesome post on why most analytics efforts fail.

这也让我想起了之前的一位嘉宾 Crystal Widjaja，她发表了一篇精彩的文章，阐述了大多数分析工作失败的原因。

And she talks a lot about this, of how to set your events up for success.

她谈到了很多关于如何让你的活动取得成功的话题。

So we'll link to that as well.

所以我们也会链接到它。

Lenny: Maybe one last thing here, I'm trying to think about what would screw people up most, and it's probably not having a data warehouse and ETL sorts of tooling in place, because that feeds a lot of this.

Lenny：也许最后一件事是，我正在尝试思考什么最会让人们陷入困境，而且可能没有适当的数据仓库和 ETL 类型的工具，因为这提供了很多东西。

Lenny: Is there anything you want to add there about just the importance of a data warehouse and how to set that up?

Lenny：关于数据仓库的重要性以及如何设置它，您有什么想要补充的吗？

Hila Qu: Some of the early stage companies I work with, when they just get started in the very beginning, they don't have data warehouse.

曲海拉：我合作过的一些早期公司，刚开始的时候，他们没有数据仓库。

They just basically have their product and they have some sort of a Google Analytics or Amplitude, and that's it.

他们基本上只是拥有自己的产品，并且拥有某种 Google Analytics 或 Amplitude，仅此而已。

It's pretty wild, but it's working and they can get to someplace from there.

这很疯狂，但是很有效，他们可以从那里到达某个地方。

Hila Qu: But as soon as you begin to have data user, it's time to get serious to establish a data warehouse, have some ETL solution.

Hila Qu：但是一旦你开始拥有数据用户，就该认真建立一个数据仓库，有一些ETL解决方案。

I think there are the most common best practice ones, like AWS and things like that.

我认为有最常见的最佳实践，例如 AWS 之类的。

There are also some startups that are doing this and you can utilize as well.

还有一些初创公司正在这样做，您也可以利用。

Hila Qu: But again, as soon as you become a serious business, you should invest in that.

Hila Qu：但是，一旦你成为一家严肃的企业，你就应该对此进行投资。

Otherwise, it's pretty wild and it's pretty fragile as well.

否则，它非常狂野，也非常脆弱。

Lenny: And when you say AWS, you mean at Redshift, I imagine?

Lenny：我想，当您说 AWS 时，您指的是 Redshift？

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Okay, final area that we have time for, which is awesome, which is around building your team.

好的，我们还有时间讨论的最后一个领域，这很棒，那就是建立你的团队。

So maybe just two questions here.

所以也许这里只有两个问题。

What is your advice for starting the initial team investing in PLG?

对于启动投资 PLG 的初始团队，您有何建议？

How does that usually look and what do you think people should do?

通常情况下，您认为人们应该做什么？

And then later, how does that evolve over time?

然后，随着时间的推移，这种情况会如何演变？

Hila Qu: How I see most companies started is the founder or the leadership team realize that they need to do PLG.

Hila Qu：我认为大多数公司的起步都是创始人或领导团队意识到他们需要做PLG。

And they build a conviction.

他们建立了信念。

Maybe initially there isn't even a dedicated team, but they did something here and there, they decided to invest in this.

也许最初甚至没有专门的团队，但他们到处做了一些事情，他们决定对此进行投资。

Hila Qu: And the common place to start is to hire a head of growth, or it can be a lead growth PM, but someone who has a little bit of experience in this area.

Hila Qu：通常的起点是聘请一位增长负责人，或者可以是首席增长 PM，但要在该领域有一点经验。

And then they begin to build this core growth squad as the first growth team.

然后他们开始打造这个核心成长团队，作为第一成长团队。

And I think that's a very common place to start.

我认为这是一个非常常见的起点。

Hila Qu: The other place to start that's less common, but I also think it happening in reality, is maybe they will start a cross-functional, almost like a tiger team.

Hila Qu：另一个不太常见的起点，但我也认为现实中会发生这种情况，也许他们会组建一个跨职能的团队，几乎就像一个老虎团队。

Because if the initial focus area is, let's say, they want to do a product qualified lead, or basically add that funnel.

因为如果最初的重点领域是，比如说，他们想要做一个合格的产品领导者，或者基本上添加那个漏斗。

That involves not only product team, that will involve data team because you want to know what are the usage pattern that indicate these is better leads.

这不仅涉及产品团队，还涉及数据团队，因为您想知道哪些使用模式表明这些是更好的潜在客户。

You also need to bring sales team in because they need to work on those leads to close them.

您还需要让销售团队参与，因为他们需要处理这些潜在客户以关闭它们。

Hila Qu: So if that's the initial starting area, a cross-functional tiger team is also possible option.

Hila Qu：所以如果这是最初的起点，跨职能的老虎团队也是可能的选择。

But the most common way is hire a head of growth, usually a growth PM, and then start a team with engineering, design, data to support that core growth squad.

但最常见的方法是聘请一名增长主管，通常是增长项目经理，然后组建一个工程、设计、数据团队来支持核心增长团队。

Lenny: And the main difference between these two.

莱尼：以及这两者之间的主要区别。

One is dedicated, "We are going to dedicate full-time people to helping us grow." Like I say we talked about earlier, let's say they're going to focus on activation and that's their whole job.

一是专注，“我们将投入全职人员来帮助我们成长。”就像我说的，我们之前谈到过，假设他们将专注于激活，这就是他们的全部工作。

Versus tiger team is basically they're borrowing resources from other teams and this is kind of a side project for them.

与 Tiger 团队相比，他们基本上是从其他团队借用资源，这对他们来说是一个副项目。

Hila Qu: Yeah.

曲海拉：是的。

A little bit, for a period of time.

一点点，一段时间。

So it's temporary.

所以这是暂时的。

It's kind of they almost to want to get into...

他们几乎想进入......

I would say usually the cross-functional team, the tiger team, is a little bit prior to a full commitment.

我想说的是，通常情况下，跨职能团队，即老虎团队，会先于全面承诺。

They're pretty much committed, but they still want to try this out and get a final conviction, and then they begin to dedicate resources.

他们非常坚定，但他们仍然想尝试一下并得到最终的信念，然后他们开始投入资源。

Hila Qu: And you ask about how do they evolve from there.

Hila Qu：你问他们是如何从那里演变而来的。

Lenny: Before we actually get there, maybe one more quick question.

莱尼：在我们真正讨论之前，也许还有一个简单的问题。

Which would you recommend?

您会推荐哪一个？

I imagine you'd recommend a dedicated team, if you can do that.

我想如果你能做到的话，你会推荐一个专门的团队。

Lenny: When would it make sense to go the tiger team route?

Lenny：什么时候走虎队路线才有意义？

In what cases?

什么情况下？

Hila Qu: One situation I would recommend is that if the initial focus area is, like I said, product qualified leads, the sales conversion path.

Hila Qu：我建议的一种情况是，如果最初的重点领域是，就像我说的，产品合格的潜在客户，销售转化路径。

Because if you think about you have a head of growth or a core growth PM, that person usually has a growth PM background and is in the product organization.

因为如果您认为自己有一位增长主管或核心增长 PM，那么该人通常具有增长 PM 背景并且在产品组织中。

And they're awesome if the initial focus areas are activation, conversion, those kind of involve a lot of experimentation.

如果最初的重点领域是激活、转化，那么它们就很棒，这些涉及大量的实验。

But activation and conversion are relatively confined, it's something the growth PM and engineer design data, they can work on.

但激活和转换相对有限，这是增长 PM 和工程师设计数据可以处理的事情。

Hila Qu: If your initial focus area you felt like, "My biggest bit is actually do this PQL thing," it is a little bit harder for the growth PM to socialize all those cross-functional resources, because he need to get pretty deep into data.

Hila Qu：如果您最初关注的领域是“我最重要的部分实际上是做 PQL 事情”，那么增长 PM 社交化所有这些跨职能资源会有点困难，因为他需要深入了解数据。

He need to have a counterpart in sales, even in marketing.

他需要在销售方面有一个对手，甚至在营销方面也是如此。

So in that case, I think it's possible that maybe you start a tiger team.

所以在这种情况下，我认为你可能会组建一支老虎队。

Hila Qu: You can combine both.

曲海拉：两者可以结合起来。

You can have a growth PM dedicated, but have some tiger team to be working with him or her on this PQL project as well.

您可以有一位专门的增长 PM，但也可以有一些老虎团队与他或她在这个 PQL 项目上合作。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

And I like this term tiger team, by the way.

顺便说一句，我喜欢老虎队这个词。

I haven't heard that before.

我以前没听说过。

It sounds like a lot of fun.

听起来很有趣。

Very dynamic.

非常有活力。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

And then yeah, what happens next after you have this initial team?

是的，在你拥有这个最初的团队之后接下来会发生什么？

Hila Qu: Once you have this initial team, it's important to give them the resources they need, and give them an initial focus area, give them support and a little bit time, allow them to try things out and get some early wins.

Hila Qu：一旦你有了这个初始团队，重要的是为他们提供所需的资源，并为他们提供一个初始的重点领域，给予他们支持和一点时间，让他们尝试新事物并获得一些早期的胜利。

And early win is the biggest thing I would say for, and whenever you start a new growth team, try to look for some opportunity, try to get some early wins in whichever focus area you choose.

早期的胜利是我想说的最重要的事情，每当你组建一个新的增长团队时，尝试寻找一些机会，尝试在你选择的重点领域获得一些早期的胜利。

Hila Qu: And from there, if you get some of the wins, the team has some momentum, there are more confidence from the organization in PLG, right?

Hila Qu：从那时起，如果你取得了一些胜利，球队就会有一些动力，组织对PLG就会更有信心，对吧？

It's time to potentially extend and formalize.

是时候进行潜在的扩展和正式化了。

So fundamentally I think you should not only think about the PLG team, you should think about the PLG org.

所以从根本上来说，我认为你不应该只考虑 PLG 团队，你应该考虑 PLG 组织。

Because PLG is a motion, it's cross-functional by nature, it's not just a product team or growth team.

因为 PLG 是一项运动，所以它本质上是跨职能的，它不仅仅是一个产品团队或增长团队。

Hila Qu: Eventually you need to get to the place basically there is a head of growth product, that's the center of the PLG org.

Hila Qu：最终你需要到达一个地方，基本上有一个增长产品的负责人，这是 PLG 组织的中心。

But there's also need to be a head of growth marketing, that's his or her counterpart in marketing organization.

但还需要有一名增长营销主管，这是他或她在营销组织中的对应人员。

And then a head of product led sales, that's the counterpart in the sales organization.

然后由产品主管领导销售，这是销售组织中的对应人员。

Hila Qu: Exactly where they sit, how they sit, it's different company by company.

Hila Qu：具体坐哪里、怎么坐，每个公司都不一样。

The most common one is head of growth product report to product org, head of growth marketing report to marketing, head of product led sales report to sales.

最常见的一种是增长产品负责人向产品组织报告，增长营销负责人向营销人员报告，产品负责人向销售人员领导销售报告。

But they have some sort of a very strong collaboration, because they are working in the same motion and same funnel.

但他们有某种非常强有力的合作，因为他们以相同的动作和相同的渠道工作。

But I think that's next step, think about this org.

但我认为这是下一步，想想这个组织。

Hila Qu: Once you have those counterparts in product, in sales, in marketing, the next step is think about what are the metrics they own to make sure you can manage this funnel, this motion, in the data-driven way.

Hila Qu：一旦你在产品、销售、营销方面有了这些同行，下一步就是考虑他们拥有哪些指标，以确保你能够以数据驱动的方式管理这个渠道、这个动作。

Because the PLG metrics are very different from SLG.

因为PLG指标和SLG有很大不同。

The top of funnel is more about high quality signups.

漏斗的顶部更多的是关于高质量的注册。

You don't want a lot of traffic, you want free signup, free trials.

您不需要大量流量，您想要免费注册、免费试用。

But it need to meet certain quality bar, it's not just anyone.

但它需要满足一定的质量标准，而不是任何人。

Hila Qu: And then the head of growth product, he or her top KPI is about usage, activation.

Hila Qu：然后是增长产品的负责人，他或她的首要 KPI 是关于使用、激活。

Activated teams is a very common metric.

活跃团队是一个非常常见的指标。

And then maybe number of PQLs, that's another.

然后也许是 PQL 的数量，这是另一个问题。

You want to get those teams to certain usage threshold basically.

基本上，您想让这些团队达到一定的使用阈值。

Hila Qu: And then the head of product led sales, he will be focused on converting those PQLs into revenue.

Hila Qu：然后担任产品主导销售主管，他将专注于将这些 PQL 转化为收入。

So he will focus a lot on conversion rate, efficiency and maybe revenue, things like that.

所以他会非常关注转化率、效率，也许还有收入，诸如此类的事情。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

And you're sharing a lot of org design verbally in the post, which we'll share obviously in the show notes.

您在帖子中口头分享了很多组织设计，我们将在演出笔记中明确分享。

You can actually see a diagram of what these look like, to help kind of make it super clear.

您实际上可以看到这些外观的图表，以帮助使其变得非常清晰。

Lenny: I have maybe just one more question.

莱尼：我也许还有一个问题。

Going back to the initial team, what are the functions you recommend they have on this like MVP PLG team?

回到最初的团队，您建议他们在像 MVP PLG 团队这样的团队中具有哪些功能？

Hila Qu: The most important one is have a growth PM to be the lead, right?

Hila Qu：最重要的是有一个增长PM来领导，对吗？

Head of growth, director of growth, lead growth PM.

增长主管、增长总监、首席增长 PM。

And then the growth PM, as you know probably very well, growth PM, he is a PM but has a much stronger skill set in analytics, experimentation, very data-driven.

然后是增长 PM，正如您可能非常了解的那样，增长 PM，他是一名 PM，但在分析、实验、非常数据驱动方面拥有更强的技能。

Think about metrics.

考虑指标。

Hila Qu: The growth PM's way of working is similar to other product manager, but his KPIs is actually more similar to the sales and marketing work.

Hila Qu：增长PM的工作方式和其他产品经理类似，但他的KPI实际上更类似于销售和营销工作。

He's very focused on the conversion rate, the journey, the funnel versus the feature specifically itself.

他非常关注转化率、旅程、渠道与功能本身。

Hila Qu: And then the other functions you need to have for sure, I would often say actually a data analyst needs to be the very first hire.

Hila Qu：然后你肯定需要具备其他功能，我经常说实际上数据分析师需要成为第一个雇员。

Sometimes even try to find a growth PM who can do analysis if you're really small, you can find that type of unicorn person.

有时甚至尝试找一个可以做分析的增长PM，如果你很小的话，你可以找到那种类型的独角兽人。

Hila Qu: Or even before hiring growth PM, hiring analyst, I would actually go as far as that.

Hila Qu：或者甚至在聘请增长经理、招聘分析师之前，我实际上会这么做。

Because without insight, without a lot of foundation, your experimentation, your effort is really directionless in a sense.

因为如果没有洞察力，没有很多基础，你的实验、你的努力在某种意义上就真的是没有方向的。

Hila Qu: So growth PM, analyst.

Hila Qu：所以增长项目经理，分析师。

And from there definitely you need some dedicated engineer, you need a designer.

从那里你肯定需要一些专门的工程师，你需要一个设计师。

Designer can be somewhat not dedicated in early days, but engineer needs to be.

设计师在早期可能有些不敬业，但工程师需要如此。

Some sort of user research support as well, it doesn't need to be dedicated.

还有某种用户研究支持，不需要专门提供。

But those are the core growth squad.

但这些都是核心成长阵容。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Real actual last question here for the growth PM.

真正实际的最后一个问题是针对增长 PM 的。

In your experience, are they most often coming from within the company already and they kind of shift to this role?

根据您的经验，他们是否通常已经来自公司内部，并且已经转变为这个角色？

Or do you recommend they find someone externally?

或者您建议他们找外部人员？

Hila Qu: That's an excellent question.

曲海拉：这是一个很好的问题。

I have seen both.

我都见过。

I actually recommend if you can find someone internally, maybe he's a PM, he want to do growth.

我实际上建议你是否可以在内部找到一个人，也许他是一名产品经理，他想做增长。

Or he is an analyst who want to become more like a product role.

或者他是一名分析师，希望变得更像一个产品角色。

Hila Qu: I even have a one client, the head of growth I work with used to be a investor relationship, like head of investor relationship.

Hila Qu：我什至有一个客户，和我一起工作的增长主管曾经是一个投资者关系主管，就像投资者关系主管一样。

And he reports to the CEO and founder.

他向首席执行官和创始人汇报。

He's very analytical.

他非常善于分析。

He hasn't been a PM before, but he can socialize the resource within the company to launch experiments in product, in marketing, in all of that.

他以前没有担任过产品经理，但他可以将公司内部的资源社交化，在产品、营销等所有方面开展实验。

And I, as an advisor, will come in, guide him in the area he's not familiar with.

我作为顾问，会介入，在他不熟悉的领域指导他。

And we actually drive pretty good results together.

事实上，我们共同取得了很好的成果。

Hila Qu: So I think prefer hiring internally if possible.

Hila Qu：所以我认为如果可能的话更倾向于内部招聘。

If not, if you really don't have anyone internally with that knowledge or with that interest, you can look outside.

如果没有，如果你内部确实没有人具备这种知识或兴趣，你可以向外寻找。

I would say map the initial growth PM hire to your starting point.

我想说的是，将初始增长的 PM 聘用映射到你的起点。

If we already decided activation is the biggest focus area, try to find some growth PM with that experience.

如果我们已经确定激活是最大的重点领域，请尝试寻找一些具有该经验的增长产品经理。

And if the conversion is a focus area, acquisition is the focus area, try to find someone with that experience.

如果转换是重点领域，获取是重点领域，请尝试找到具有这种经验的人。

Lenny: I love that advice.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。

We've reached our very exciting lightning round.

我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got actually seven questions for you, the most ever we've had for a lightning round.

我实际上有七个问题要问你，这是我们闪电轮中问的最多的问题。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Hila Qu: This first one is called The Almanack Of Naval.

Hila Qu：第一个叫做《海军年鉴》。

Yeah, I don't know whether we read that one.

是的，我不知道我们是否读过那一篇。

I really love that one.

我真的很喜欢那个。

That's kind of a life-changing book for me.

这对我来说是一本改变生活的书。

I have it-

我有它-

Lenny: Do you have a favorite Naval-ism that comes to mind?

莱尼：你有最喜欢的海军主义吗？

Hila Qu: I learned finding leverage from him.

曲海拉：我从他那里学会了寻找杠杆。

He talked about there are four type of leverage.

他谈到杠杆有四种类型。

It can be your writing, it can be code, it can be capital, it can be team.

可以是你的文字，可以是代码，可以是资本，可以是团队。

So the reason why I invest a lot in writing is I felt like that's my leverage.

所以我在写作上投入大量资金的原因是我觉得这就是我的杠杆。

And I love that.

我喜欢这样。

Hila Qu: The second book is called How Women Rise.

Hila Qu：第二本书叫《女性如何崛起》。

I really love this one.

我真的很喜欢这个。

I gifted this to a lot of my female team member and I really learned a lot from them.

我把这个礼物送给了我的很多女性团队成员，我真的从她们身上学到了很多东西。

Hila Qu: And the third one is my book, it's called [Chinese 01:27:01].

Hila Qu：第三本是我的书，叫做[中文01:27:01]。

It's only in Chinese, if you don't read Chinese you cannot read it.

只有中文，如果你不读中文，你就看不懂。

But I heard, my friends told me, if you are launching an email campaign, if you're doing experiments, have this book by the side, it will help with conversion rate just by its appearance.

但我听说，我的朋友告诉我，如果你正在发起电子邮件营销活动，如果你正在做实验，请将这本书放在旁边，光是它的外观就会有助于提高转化率。

Lenny: That's amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Is there an English translation or is it only in Chinese right now?

有英文翻译吗还是目前只有中文？

Hila Qu: It's only in Chinese, so you have to learn.

曲海拉：只有中文，所以你必须学。

Lenny: All right, I see.

莱尼：好吧，我明白了。

All right.

好的。

There's an advantage there, if you can speak Chinese your email conversion will go up.

这是一个优势，如果你会说中文，你的电子邮件转化率就会上升。

Lenny: And then just to the first book, it was called The Almanack Of Naval, right?

莱尼：第一本书的名字叫《海军年鉴》，对吧？

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

Sweet.

甜的。

And we'll link to all these.

我们将链接到所有这些。

Okay, favorite recent movie or TV show?

好吧，最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Hila Qu: I watched a movie, it's a sci-fi movie from China, it's called The Wandering Earth 2.

曲海拉：我看了一部电影，是中国的一部科幻电影，叫《流浪地球2》。

It's by the famous author, Cixin Liu.

这是著名作家刘慈欣的作品。

He's the author of Three Bodies.

他是《三体》的作者。

I don't know whether you heard of it?

不知道你听说过吗？

Hila Qu: That movie is awesome.

曲海拉：那部电影很棒。

It's kind of really cool.

这真的很酷。

I really highly recommend it.

我真的强烈推荐它。

Lenny: I have to go check that out.

莱尼：我得去看看。

Oh my God.

我的天啊。

I heard they're bringing Three Body Problem to Apple TV or Netflix.

我听说他们要把《三体》带到 Apple TV 或 Netflix。

There's like a show coming.

好像有一场演出要来了。

Hila Qu: Yes, yes.

曲海拉：是的，是的。

I look forward to that as well.

我也很期待这一点。

I watched many versions already kind of film, none of them are good.

我看过很多版本的电影，没有一个是好的。

So-

所以——

Lenny: That's the problem it's so hard to do well.

莱尼：这就是问题所在，很难做好。

Oh man, I'm not optimistic, but I'm excited anyway.

哦，伙计，我并不乐观，但无论如何我很兴奋。

Lenny: Favorite interview question that you like to ask.

Lenny：你最喜欢问的面试问题。

Hila Qu: When I interview a growth PM or analyst, I will always ask, "What is a experiment you launched that has a very unexpected result?

Hila Qu：当我采访增长型产品经理或分析师时，我总是会问：“你发起的一项实验，结果非常出人意料？

And what did you do after that?"

那之后你做了什么？”

Lenny: What do you look for in an answer there that makes you feel like they are strong?

莱尼：你在答案中寻找什么让你觉得他们很坚强？

Hila Qu: So first of all, they have to be launching a lot of experiments to get very unexpected answer.

Hila Qu：所以首先，他们必须进行大量的实验才能得到非常意想不到的答案。

So if you are only...

所以如果你只是...

Many people remember their success for the interview, they prepare that very well.

很多人都记得他们面试的成功，他们准备得很好。

I don't want to ask, "What's your successful experiment?"

我不想问“你成功的实验是什么？”

Hila Qu: Secondly, I want to know just why it's unexpected.

曲海拉：第二，我想知道为什么会出乎意料。

That reveals the deep, deep level of their thinking, how deep they are thinking.

这揭示了他们的思考的深层次，他们的思考有多深。

If they should expect that based on what they described, then they are not thinking deep enough, they are not understanding customer enough.

如果他们应该根据他们的描述来预期这一点，那么他们的思考不够深入，他们对客户的了解不够。

Hila Qu: And what they do afterwards is also awesome.

曲海拉：然后他们做的事情也很棒。

Like, "How do you face a failure or unexpected result?

比如，“你如何面对失败或意外的结果？

What are the clues you can pursue?

你可以追寻哪些线索？

What are the actions you can take?

您可以采取哪些行动？

How do you learn something out of it?"

你如何从中学到一些东西？”

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

What's a favorite recent product you've recently discovered that you love?

您最近发现的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Hila Qu: I would say, similar to everyone, ChatGPT.

Hila Qu：我想说，和大家一样，ChatGPT。

But also Lululemon yoga pants.

还有 Lululemon 瑜伽裤。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Great.

伟大的。

What's something relatively minor you've changed in your product development process that has had a tremendous impact on a team's ability to execute?

您在产品开发过程中进行了哪些相对较小的更改，但对团队的执行能力产生了巨大影响？

Hila Qu: Yeah.

曲海拉：是的。

At first I added basically a section in the dock, in the ticket stack.

起初，我基本上在码头的票务堆栈中添加了一个部分。

Ask the PMs to write the success metric ahead of time.

要求产品经理提前写出成功指标。

As well as adding which of the growth lever this is helping.

以及增加增长杠杆这有帮助。

Is this contributing to acquisition, activation, retention, monetization?

这是否有助于获取、激活、保留、货币化？

And it forced them to sometimes think through deeply, "Why are we even doing this?" Sometimes they ended up not doing that by just writing it down.

这迫使他们有时深入思考，“我们为什么要这样做？”有时他们只是把它写下来，最终却没有做到这一点。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Next question.

下一个问题。

I know you're big on children's books, do you have a favorite children's book?

我知道你很喜欢儿童读物，你有最喜欢的儿童读物吗？

Hila Qu: My favorite children's book is called Someday, and I recommend everyone to check it out.

曲海拉：我最喜欢的儿童读物是《有一天》，推荐大家都看一下。

And basically it's talking about how our children used to be our baby, become our kids, and when they are taller and more stronger than us and they will remember us.

基本上，它谈论的是我们的孩子如何曾经是我们的婴儿，成为我们的孩子，当他们比我们更高、更强壮时，他们会记住我们。

Lenny: I'm going to need to check that out now.

莱尼：我现在需要检查一下。

And final question.

最后一个问题。

I know you're big on growth concepts, you have all these frameworks and concepts.

我知道您热衷于增长概念，您拥有所有这些框架和概念。

And so what is your favorite growth concept?

那么您最喜欢的增长理念是什么？

Hila Qu: I would say north star metric, because I find it's not only valuable to growth, it's valuable to just everything.

Hila Qu：我会说北极星指标，因为我发现它不仅对增长有价值，而且对一切都有价值。

Hila Qu: When I think about what do I want to do with my career, does that fit my own personal north star metric?

Hila Qu：当我思考我想在我的职业生涯中做什么时，这符合我个人的北极星指标吗？

When I think about how I want to raise my kids, I think about what's the north star metric for successful education for my kid?

当我思考我想如何抚养我的孩子时，我会想我的孩子成功教育的北极星指标是什么？

Hila Qu: Because it forced me to think long term.

Hila Qu：因为它迫使我思考长远。

It forced me to think about what's valuable to me, to them, not only by the society standards, ARR revenue, like salary.

它迫使我思考什么对我、对他们有价值，而不仅仅是社会标准、ARR 收入，比如工资。

And also what's my vision for myself and for my kids.

还有我对自己和孩子的愿景是什么。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

It reminds me of a recent guest where she always asks, "What are you optimizing for?" Whether she's talking with her kids or her husband or her team, and it's a similar concept.

这让我想起最近的一位客人，她总是问：“你在优化什么？”无论她是在与孩子、丈夫还是团队交谈，都是类似的概念。

Lenny: Hila, this was incredible.

莱尼：海拉，这太不可思议了。

I think we've shared tens of thousands of dollars of value, and it will probably lead to millions of dollars of revenue for a lot of companies.

我认为我们已经分享了数万美元的价值，这可能会给很多公司带来数百万美元的收入。

And it's everything I hoped it would be.

这就是我所希望的一切。

Thank you so much for being here and for sharing so much wisdom.

非常感谢您来到这里并分享如此多的智慧。

Lenny: Two final questions.

莱尼：最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more?

如果人们想联系并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Hila Qu: Yeah, they can find me on LinkedIn.

Hila Qu：是的，他们可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。

Just search Hila Qu, H-I-L-A Q-U.

只需搜索 Hila Qu，H-I-L-A Q-U。

You can find me.

你可以找到我。

I have a personal website that's under development, but I contracted it to my kid, to my 12-year-old.

我有一个正在开发的个人网站，但我把它承包给了我 12 岁的孩子。

So he need to wait until summer and hopefully this summer he can finish it.

所以他需要等到夏天，希望今年夏天他能完成它。

Hila Qu: Yeah, if you are a founder, you are looking for a growth advisor, feel free to hit me up.

Hila Qu：是的，如果您是创始人，正在寻找成长顾问，请随时联系我。

I'm always happy to just have a call with founders and leaders, get to know more people.

我总是很高兴能与创始人和领导者通电话，结识更多人。

And I'm a growth nerd, so I always want to nerd about growth anyway.

我是一个增长迷，所以无论如何我总是想对增长感到迷惑。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Hila, again, thank you so much for being here.

海拉，再次非常感谢您来到这里。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

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您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。