The art and wisdom of changing teams | Heidi Helfand (Author of Dynamic Reteaming)

Heidi Helfand: Reteaming is hard.

Heidi Helfand：重新组队很难。

Reorgs are hard.

重组很难。

You can't lump them all into one thing with oh, it's all great all the time.

你不能把它们全部集中到一件事上，“哦，一切都很棒”。

No, it's not.

不，不是。

If we could just build the software, deliver to the customer, get the product market fit, hey, have we delighted them or not?

如果我们可以构建软件，交付给客户，让产品适合市场，嘿，我们是否让他们满意？

If only it could be that easy.

如果事情能这么简单就好了。

No, we have the people layer, so let's focus there too.

不，我们有人员层，所以我们也关注那里。

Lenny: Today my guest is Heidi Helfand.

莱尼：今天我的客人是海蒂·赫尔芬德。

After two decades in the tech industry, Heidi became fascinated with how teams are organized, how org structures change and how to set teams up for success through that change.

在科技行业工作了二十年后，海蒂开始着迷于如何组织团队、组织结构如何变化以及如何让团队通过这种变化取得成功。

She now teaches workshops and runs courses and consults on how to effectively reorganize your teams.

她现在教授研讨会并举办课程，并就如何有效地重组团队提供咨询。

And in her book Dynamic Reteaming, Heidi delves deep into why change is actually good for your teams, why you're better off not having super stable teams, how to effectively execute reorgs, and through that, how to reduce attrition, stagnation, and knowledge silos.

在她的《动态重组》一书中，海蒂深入探讨了为什么变革实际上对你的团队有好处，为什么最好不要拥有超级稳定的团队，如何有效地执行重组，以及如何减少人员流失、停滞和知识孤岛。

In our conversation, Heidi shares the five types of reteaming, anti-patterns to avoid when making org changes, what sort of team structure is most conducive to creating totally new products, why being transparent about your reorg plans is definitely worth considering.

在我们的谈话中，海蒂分享了五种类型的重组、组织变更时要避免的反模式、哪种团队结构最有利于创建全新产品、为什么对重组计划保持透明绝对值得考虑。

Also, how Heidi became such a great listener with a lot of really interesting insights and advice there and so much more.

此外，海蒂如何成为一名出色的倾听者，并提供了许多非常有趣的见解和建议等等。

Huge thank you to John Cutler for introducing me to Heidi.

非常感谢约翰·卡特勒将我介绍给海蒂。

With that, I bring you Heidi Helfand after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，我为您带来了海蒂·赫尔芬德 (Heidi Helfand)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by productroadmap.ai and Ignition.

Lenny：本集由 Productroadmap.ai 和 Ignition 为您带来。

Productroadmap.ai is the first AI roadmapping suite.

Productroadmap.ai 是第一个人工智能路线图套件。

It helps ensure roadmaps drive revenue by instantly aligning product with your sales and marketing teams to capture upsell opportunities.

它可以立即使产品与您的销售和营销团队保持一致，以抓住追加销售机会，从而帮助确保路线图增加收入。

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作为 Ignition 更广泛的上市操作系统的一部分，productroadmap.ai 还可以为两个团队提供研究、规划、编排和衡量产品构建和上市流程的工具，从而帮助与产品营销团队建立更好的交接和协作。

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它充满了集成、人工智能自动化和通信工具，是真正的一站式产品和营销商店，可将产品从概念到发布。

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要注册，请访问 Productroadmap.ai 并使用促销代码 Lenny 即可享受第一年 75% 的折扣。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Hex.

莱尼：这一集是由 Hex 为您带来的。

If you're a data person, you probably have to jump between different tools to run queries, build visualizations, write Python, and send around a lot of screenshots and CSV files.

如果您是一名数据人员，您可能必须在不同的工具之间切换来运行查询、构建可视化、编写 Python 以及发送大量屏幕截图和 CSV 文件。

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十六进制将一切结合在一起。

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其强大的笔记本 UI 允许您以 SQL、Python 或任何组合的无代码方式分析数据，并与实时多人游戏和版本控制一起使用。

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这就像在您已经完成工作的地方内置了一个分析副驾驶。

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加入数百个数据团队，如 Notion、AllTrails、Loom、Mixpanel 和 Algolia，每天使用 Hex，让他们的工作更具影响力。

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立即在 hex.tech/lenny 注册即可获得 Hex 团队计划的 60 天免费试用期。

That's hex.tech/lenny.

那是 hex.tech/lenny。

Lenny: Heidi, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：海蒂，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Heidi Helfand: Thanks, Lenny.

海蒂·赫尔芬德：谢谢，莱尼。

Great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: It's great to have you here.

莱尼：很高兴你能来到这里。

So I had this colleague at Airbnb, her name was Jana, and she always had this joke that she shared that if it's been six months and she hasn't switched teams or hasn't moved desks, she knew there was this reorg coming, there's something happening, something was coming to change everything.

我在 Airbnb 有一位同事，她的名字叫 Jana，她总是开玩笑说，如果六个月过去了，她没有换团队或没有搬办公桌，她就知道这次重组即将到来，将会发生一些事情，一些事情即将改变一切。

And you wrote a whole book about this general idea of teams changing, reorgs, you call reteaming.

你写了一整本书，讲述团队变更、重组（你称之为重组）的总体理念。

I have the book right here.

我这里有这本书。

It's called Dynamic Reteaming: The Art and Wisdom of Changing Teams.

这就是所谓的“动态重组：改变团队的艺术与智慧”。

I feel like just people underestimate the opportunities and benefits of change, and I think that we see it as a scary thing.

我觉得人们低估了变革的机会和好处，我认为我们认为这是一件可怕的事情。

So I'm really excited to spend time with you and chat about this topic.

所以我很高兴能与您共度时光并讨论这个话题。

Before we get into the meat of it, I'm just curious why you decided to spend so much of your time researching this area of team change, reorgs, reteaming.

在我们深入探讨它的实质之前，我只是很好奇为什么你决定花这么多时间研究团队变革、重组、重新团队这一领域。

Heidi Helfand: Yeah, that's a good question.

海蒂·赫尔芬德：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

It wasn't necessarily planned.

这不一定是计划好的。

I had been working in a variety of different fast-growing startups for most of my career in 20 years in software-as-a-service companies in particular.

20 年来，我职业生涯的大部分时间都在各种不同的快速发展的初创公司工作，尤其是在软件即服务公司。

And I read a lot of books to try to get better at my work and what we're doing in our teams.

我读了很多书，试图更好地完成我的工作以及我们在团队中所做的事情。

I have a lot right over there as you can see, and a lot of the books I would read on teams and the advice that I would get from people would be, you really want to keep your teams the same.

正如你所看到的，我在那里有很多关于团队的书籍，我会从人们那里得到的建议是，你真的想让你的团队保持不变。

You want to go for that forming, storming, norming, performing kind of thing.

你想要形成、冲击、规范、表演之类的东西。

And I had thought about that and I was like, wait, well it wasn't really possible for us when I was at a startup and I was the 10th employee and we grew to 900 people and now thousands of people, our team's kind of morphed and changed.

我曾经想过这一点，我想，等等，好吧，当我在一家初创公司时，这对我们来说真的是不可能的，我是第 10 名员工，我们发展到 900 人，现在有数千人，我们的团队发生了一些变化和变化。

Heidi Helfand: So I feel like if you're in a fast-growing company or a shrinking company, look there, don't look at trying to fight the natural evolution.

海蒂·赫尔芬德（Heidi Helfand）：所以我觉得，如果你在一家快速增长的公司或一家萎缩的公司，看看那里，不要试图对抗自然进化。

I was just trying to prove a point and to illustrate that teams change.

我只是想证明一个观点并说明团队的变化。

And I was also curious to see, well, was that just my experience and the experience of my colleagues in Southern California?

我也很好奇，这只是我和南加州同事的经历吗？

What is it like for other people?

对于其他人来说是什么样的？

So I was just curious.

所以我只是好奇。

Lenny: You have this code in your book where you say something like, sure, we deliver software on time, we make products people love and want to buy, but there's this people layer that happens that people may not be thinking enough about.

莱尼：你的书中有这样的代码，你会说，当然，我们按时交付软件，我们制造人们喜欢并想要购买的产品，但是人们可能没有充分考虑到这个人员层。

Is there anything more you can say to that?

对此您还有什么要说的吗？

Heidi Helfand: Yeah, I think a lot of the things that I would read about teams just are naturally focused on, well, you want to build things that customers love.

Heidi Helfand：是的，我认为我读到的有关团队的很多内容自然会关注，嗯，你想要构建客户喜欢的东西。

You want it to be an enjoyable experience, you want to deliver on time.

您希望这是一次愉快的体验，您希望按时交付。

There's a reason we're there as a business, but there's also a lot of company building that happens in building the people structures and just when you go from one to many to a multitude, there's a lot of work that goes into it.

作为一家企业，我们在那里是有原因的，但在建立人员结构时也发生了很多公司建设，当你从一个人到很多人再到众多时，需要做很多工作。

This is enablement type work and it's where I focused a lot of my time and my career helping make teams and organizations successful.

这是赋能型工作，我投入大量时间和职业生涯来帮助团队和组织取得成功。

So there is this people layer, however, I've thought about this a lot over the years and I think it would be highly convenient if we could just focus on building products that people love and getting product market fit, talking to customers.

因此，存在这个人员层，但是，多年来我对此进行了很多思考，我认为如果我们能够专注于构建人们喜欢的产品并让产品适合市场，与客户交谈，那将会非常方便。

Heidi Helfand: It would be great if it could only be that, but the reality is we're humans together and there's a lot of opportunity to build companies that delight people where they're excited to be included in decision-making about how the organization grows and changes or shrinks.

海蒂·赫尔芬德（Heidi Helfand）：如果只能这样那就太好了，但现实是我们都是人类，有很多机会建立让人们高兴的公司，让他们很高兴参与有关组织如何发展、变革或收缩的决策。

So yeah, there's this whole kind of other area of work that I think just doesn't get enough attention and I guess that's where I live and breathe.

所以，是的，我认为还有其他工作领域没有得到足够的关注，我想这就是我生活和呼吸的地方。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so I definitely want to get into the five types of reteaming as you described, but before we get there, what I find with reorgs and change is that it often leads to the biggest career opportunities because there's new roles to be filled.

好的，所以我确实想讨论您所描述的五种类型的重组，但在我们讨论之前，我发现重组和变革通常会带来最大的职业机会，因为有新的角色需要填补。

If things aren't changing, there's not going to be all of a sudden, "Hey, we have this new role that we want for you." I don't know.

如果事情没有改变，就不会突然说：“嘿，我们想要给你这个新角色。”我不知道。

A lot of the leaders that move up quickly are the ones that seem to take advantage of change and think ahead and get involved and position themselves in a way where like, "Okay, cool, there's a new position.

许多快速晋升的领导者似乎是那些利用变革、提前思考、参与其中并以这样的方式定位自己的人：“好吧，酷，有一个新职位。

Oh, clearly it's going to be Heidi." Is there anything you can share there?

哦，显然是海蒂。”有什么可以分享的吗？

Any advice for people that maybe see reorgs coming and what they can do to help themselves in that pending change?

对于那些可能会看到重组的人以及他们可以采取哪些措施来帮助自己应对即将发生的变革，有什么建议吗？

Heidi Helfand: I really like it when there's transparency in reorgs.

Heidi Helfand：我真的很喜欢重组的透明度。

There's a story in my book from Christian Lima at Spotify about how they reorged a large infrastructure team.

我的书中有一个来自 Spotify 的 Christian Lima 的故事，讲述了他们如何重组大型基础设施团队。

They visualized it on whiteboards and brought people over to the whiteboards to see the future team structure that the leaders wanted and they got input into the design.

他们在白板上将其可视化，并将人们带到白板上，看看领导者想要的未来团队结构，然后他们就设计提出了意见。

We did this at Procore as well inspired by Christian and his story and we had...

我们在 Procore 做了这件事，也受到 Christian 和他的故事的启发，我们......

I think there were 80 people involved in this platform organization that was splitting from two large clusters of teams into three.

我认为这个平台组织有 80 人参与，该组织从两个大的团队集群分成了三个团队。

And I remember when we rolled out the whiteboards from a back office where we were talking about this change for a few weeks and it was scary to roll these whiteboards out because it impacts people's day to day.

我记得当我们从后台推出白板时，我们讨论了这一变化几周，推出这些白板很可怕，因为它会影响人们的日常生活。

It's like when somebody is suggesting that maybe you do something different or that something different happens, sometimes it can be kind of triggering.

就像当有人建议你做一些不同的事情或者发生一些不同的事情时，有时这可能是一种触发。

You want to know what's going on.

你想知道发生了什么事。

So anyway, but we had courage together.

不管怎样，但我们在一起有勇气。

Heidi Helfand: So we rolled these whiteboards out and it had the team structure with everyone's names on it.

Heidi Helfand：所以我们推出了这些白板，上面有团队结构，上面写着每个人的名字。

It had the name of the team, the mission of the team, how many open slots for hiring across all of these different teams, and then people's names in their existing team positions.

它包含团队的名称、团队的使命、所有这些不同团队中有多少个可供招聘的空缺职位，以及现有团队职位中人员的姓名。

And people were invited to look, give feedback.

人们被邀请观看并提供反馈。

They identified mistakes that we had in the design, "Oh, this team might be better over here and here's why." And people had the opportunity to see opportunities within their own company that they might say, "Hey, I'm interested in this, might I be considered for this?" And then they could have their discussion.

他们指出了我们在设计中存在的错误，“哦，这个团队在这里可能会更好，这就是原因。”人们有机会看到自己公司内的机会，他们可能会说：“嘿，我对此感兴趣，我可以考虑这样做吗？”然后他们就可以进行讨论了。

So I really liked that the opportunities were shared and presented, so it wasn't some sort of thing that happened in some kind of back room for the whole time.

所以我真的很喜欢分享和呈现机会，所以这不是一直在某个密室里发生的事情。

We unearthed the beginning of a plan.

我们发现了一个计划的开始。

Heidi Helfand: I think sometimes when you convene people for a meeting to talk about anything, it's good to have a starting point.

Heidi Helfand：我认为有时当你召集人们开会讨论任何事情时，有一个起点是很好的。

So we had this starting point, we had a variety of different things and I call it whiteboard reteaming in my book and I write about that.

所以我们有这个起点，我们有各种不同的东西，我在我的书中称之为白板重组，我写了相关内容。

And there's even structures that are more open than that.

甚至还有比这更开放的结构。

Redgate Software in Cambridge UK.

英国剑桥的 Redgate Software。

Chris Smith is a colleague of mine and they do regular open self-selection reteaming activities when they're changing their strategic priorities.

克里斯·史密斯是我的一位同事，当他们改变战略优先事项时，他们会定期进行公开的自选重组活动。

He talks about this globally very interesting space and it's even more open than putting the names on the whiteboards.

他谈到了这个全球非常有趣的空间，它甚至比把名字写在白板上还要开放。

They have teams give pitches and this is what they're looking for and they have a whole method for enabling people to say, "Hey, I'm interested in this." I think that really helps because sometimes you might think, "Oh, no one's going to want to work on this." But people can be delighted by working on things that another person doesn't think are particularly interesting.

他们让团队进行宣传，这就是他们正在寻找的东西，他们有一整套方法可以让人们说：“嘿，我对此感兴趣。”我认为这真的很有帮助，因为有时你可能会想，“哦，没有人愿意从事这个工作。”但人们可能会因为做别人认为特别有趣的事情而感到高兴。

Heidi Helfand: So giving choice is important.

Heidi Helfand：所以给予选择很重要。

And again, there are different grades of transparency.

同样，透明度也有不同的等级。

We weren't up for doing this kind of open reteaming self-selection event, but we were open to the whiteboard variant.

我们不打算进行这种公开的重新组队自选活动，但我们对白板变体持开放态度。

Lenny: I imagine individual employees hearing this of just being involved in the reorg strategy sounds amazing.

莱尼：我想个别员工听到参与重组战略的消息听起来很神奇。

Executives and leaders hearing this are probably really afraid and feel like there's no way this can work well.

高管和领导者听到这个消息可能真的很害怕，觉得这不可能很好地发挥作用。

And so what I want to understand is how do you actually set this up for success?

所以我想了解的是，你如何真正做到这一点以取得成功？

What I'm imagining when you do this is many people disagree.

当你这样做时，我想象的是很多人不同意。

There's teams people want to join, there's teams people don't want to join.

有些团队人们想加入，有些团队人们不想加入。

It seems like there's a consensus challenge where do you wait for everyone to agree?

似乎存在共识挑战，您在哪里等待每个人都同意？

Does someone end up making a decision?

最终有人做出决定吗？

Does it distract everyone from the work they're doing when you're kind of involving everyone in the reorg?

当你让每个人都参与重组时，这是否会分散每个人的注意力？

Versus what typically happens, it secretly is planned amongst executives.

与通常发生的情况不同，这是高管们秘密计划的。

No one knows it's coming.

没有人知道它即将到来。

And I think the reason they do that is because they don't want to distract anyone and they don't want anyone to start freaking out until it's like, "Here's the final plan.

我认为他们这样做的原因是因为他们不想分散任何人的注意力，也不希望任何人开始惊慌失措，直到他们说：“这是最终计划。

Here's what we're doing." So what other advice do you have for people that want to practice this way of reteaming and reorging where they involve the actual team in the plan?

这就是我们正在做的事情。”那么，对于那些想要实践这种重新团队和重组方式（让实际团队参与计划）的人们，您还有什么其他建议呢？

Heidi Helfand: There's a book by William Bridges called Transitions: Managing Life's Changes.

海蒂·赫尔芬德（Heidi Helfand）：威廉·布里奇斯（William Bridges）有一本书，名为《转变：管理生活的变化》。

I have it right here.

我这里就有。

Making Sense of Life's Changes.

理解生活的变化。

He talks about endings, neutral zone, and new beginning.

他谈到了结局、中立区和新的开始。

Ending: you're going through a change, your team is changing.

结局：你正在经历改变，你的团队正在改变。

Neutral zone: the period of kind of liminality where you're like, "Gosh, I don't know how this is going to go." You're not quite comfortable.

中立区：这是一种阈限时期，你会说，“天哪，我不知道这会如何发展。”你不太舒服。

You're not quite in that new reality yet.

你还没有完全进入那个新的现实。

You're still thinking about what it was like before.

你还在想以前的样子。

And once you're in that new reality and leaders can paint the vision and picture about the benefits of the new reality and the purpose and why we're here and anchor to that to try to raise positivity.

一旦你处于新的现实中，领导者就可以描绘新现实的好处和目的以及我们为何在这里并以此为基础来努力提高积极性的愿景和图景。

But once I learned about that transition framework, going through any subsequent changes myself became a lot easier to grasp and it really kind of makes changes in any part of your life.

但是，一旦我了解了这个过渡框架，我自己经历任何后续的改变就变得更容易掌握，而且它确实会改变你生活的任何部分。

I mean, his book is not written about software development or product development.

我的意思是，他的书不是关于软件开发或产品开发的。

Heidi Helfand: Sometimes we're going to have a say, we're going to be able to participate, sometimes we're not.

Heidi Helfand：有时我们会有发言权，我们能够参与，有时我们不能。

And being clear on who the decision maker is in a change is really important.

明确谁是变革的决策者非常重要。

Heidi Helfand: There's another framework that I really like.

Heidi Helfand：还有另一个我非常喜欢的框架。

I don't think it's in my book, but I've written about it in my new book, but it's called RIDE.

我不认为它出现在我的书中，但我在我的新书中写过它，但它的名字叫“RIDE”。

And we had a chief people officer at Procore and she's now at UKG, Pat Wadors.

我们在 Procore 有一位首席人力官，她现在在 UKG，Pat Wadors。

She taught us the RIDE framework for decision making clarity and it's who's requesting the change, who can give input to the change, who's the decider on the change, and who's going to execute on the change?

她教给我们清晰决策的 RIDE 框架，即谁请求变更、谁可以为变更提供输入、谁是变更的决策者以及谁将执行变更？

So it's like R-I-D-E.

所以这就像 R-I-D-E。

And I googled this for a while; I couldn't find anything on it.

我用谷歌搜索了一段时间；我在上面找不到任何东西。

I encouraged her to write about it and I credit her to that, Pat Wadors.

我鼓励她写下这件事，我把这归功于她，帕特·沃多斯​​。

She's awesome.

她太棒了。

Heidi Helfand: So a lot of the times it's like, what's the problem you're going to solve?

Heidi Helfand：很多时候，你要解决的问题是什么？

You have a current state and a future state and that future state might be up to discussion, but maybe it's not depending on what it is.

你有一个当前状态和一个未来状态，未来状态可能需要讨论，但也许并不取决于它是什么。

You're getting acquired, you're probably not going to have a standup meeting and talk about should we get acquired or not?

你被收购了，你可能不会召开站立会议来讨论我们是否应该被收购？

No, you're not part of that decision.

不，你不参与该决定。

And then how's the change going to get rolled out or how are we going to do it?

那么变革将如何推出，或者我们将如何去做？

Heidi Helfand: In other cases at the team level, maybe you have a retrospective and you determine, "Hey, I think we'd be a bit more effective and we'd be able to deliver at a better cadence if we were two teams instead of one team." And if teams have the ability to talk about that and impact and have some agency into how their part of the org evolves and change, I think that could be really cool.

Heidi Helfand：在团队层面的其他情况下，也许你会进行回顾，然后决定，“嘿，我认为如果我们是两个团队而不是一个团队，我们会更有效，并且能够以更好的节奏交付。”如果团队有能力谈论这一点和影响，并有一些机构来了解他们所在组织的部分如何发展和变化，我认为这可能真的很酷。

I think that could be really empowering.

我认为这确实可以赋予权力。

I think that could help us feel more ownership in that company that we're in.

我认为这可以帮助我们对我们所在的公司有更多的主人翁感。

It doesn't always have to be like decision making equals hierarchy or the person at the top.

决策并不总是等同于等级制度或最高层的人。

It doesn't have to be like that.

事情不一定是这样的。

Heidi Helfand: But again, reteaming is hard.

Heidi Helfand：但是，重新组队是很困难的。

Reorgs are hard.

重组很难。

You can't lump them all into one thing with, oh, it's all great all the time.

你不能把它们全部集中到一件事上，哦，它一直都很棒。

No, it's not.

不，不是。

It's not.

它不是。

But anyway, we need to focus there.

但无论如何，我们需要集中精力。

We got to focus on this people layer because reteaming is inevitable.

我们必须关注人员层面，因为重组是不可避免的。

We might as well get better at it because we're going to have to deal with it.

我们不妨做得更好，因为我们将不得不处理它。

If we could just build the software, deliver to the customer, get the product market fit, hey, have we delighted them or not?

如果我们可以构建软件，交付给客户，让产品适合市场，嘿，我们是否让他们满意？

If only it could be that easy.

如果事情能这么简单就好了。

No, we have the people layer.

不，我们有人员层。

So let's focus there too.

所以我们也把注意力集中在那里。

Lenny: On this transparent collaborative reteaming, final question here is just would you recommend time boxing this so that it doesn't suck up everyone's brain power for weeks and weeks and weeks?

莱尼：在这种透明的协作重组中，最后一个问题是，您是否会建议对此进行时间限制，以便它不会在数周、数周、数周的时间里耗尽每个人的脑力？

Or is it very dependent?

还是依赖性很强？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Is there advice you have on how long?

您有什么建议吗？

Heidi Helfand: Make a schedule biased towards shorter as opposed to longer.

Heidi Helfand：制定一个偏向较短而不是较长的时间表。

You don't want to deliberate on this forever, because especially as you include more people, it can be distracting.

你不想永远考虑这个问题，因为特别是当你包括更多的人时，它可能会分散你的注意力。

So you want to proceed as expediently as you can.

因此，您希望尽可能方便地进行。

Lenny: Okay, let's talk about the types of reteaming.

莱尼：好的，我们来谈谈重组的类型。

This is kind of the core of your book and we haven't even gotten there yet.

这是你的书的核心内容，但我们还没有到达那里。

So you've identified there's five ways teams change.

您已经确定了团队变革的五种方式。

Can you just walk through them, help people understand what they are.

你能简单地介绍一下它们，帮助人们理解它们是什么吗？

And then also, we use this term reorg a lot in this conversation.

此外，我们在这次对话中经常使用重组这个术语。

I think that's the way most people think about change.

我认为这就是大多数人思考改变的方式。

After we go through this list, what does reorg refer to when it's maybe from the perspective of these five ways of teams changing?

当我们浏览完这个列表后，从这五种团队变革方式的角度来看，重组指的是什么呢？

Heidi Helfand: Sure.

海蒂·赫尔凡德：当然。

Okay, so the five patterns of reteaming.

好的，这就是重组的五种模式。

One by one, someone joins your company or someone leaves your company, grow and split.

一个又一个，有人加入你的公司，有人离开你的公司，成长、分裂。

It's a growth pattern.

这是一种增长模式。

Teams grow bigger and then they split into two or more teams.

团队规模不断扩大，然后分成两个或更多团队。

Opposite of grow and split is merging.

增长和分裂的相反是合并。

Sometimes two or more teams merge together.

有时两个或更多团队合并在一起。

It's more of a shrinking pattern.

这更像是一种萎缩的模式。

We might be seeing more of this these days as companies downsize.

随着公司规模缩小，我们现在可能会看到更多这样的情况。

Things merge together and consolidate.

事物融合在一起并巩固。

Isolation is, or innovation by isolation.

隔离就是隔离，或者说隔离创新。

Start a new team off to the side, a beneficial silo, give that team process freedom, great for catalyzing new product lines within your existing company.

在旁边组建一个新团队，一个有益的筒仓，给予该团队流程自由，非常适合在现有公司内催化新产品线。

Also great for emergencies and they just happen anyway if we have incidents and people have to come together, solve an incident and then go back to their teams.

对于紧急情况也非常有用，如果我们发生事件，人们必须聚集在一起，解决事件，然后返回他们的团队，无论如何，它们都会发生。

And switching.

和切换。

So switching is moving from one team to another team.

因此，切换就是从一个团队转移到另一个团队。

You can do this at a variety of cadences, short term, long term.

你可以以各种节奏、短期或长期的方式来做到这一点。

Heidi Helfand: And then difference between a reteaming and a reorg.

Heidi Helfand：然后是重组和重组之间的区别。

I think reorg is a word that has very traditional baggage and connotations.

我认为重组这个词有非常传统的包袱和内涵。

And when I was writing Dynamic Reteaming, it just didn't feel like an appropriate word to use for, well, Sue is looking to learn a little bit about how our web operations work, she's going to move to that team.

当我写《动态重组》时，我觉得用这个词不太合适，好吧，苏想要了解一些关于我们的网络运营如何工作的知识，她将搬到那个团队。

It didn't feel appropriate to call that a reorg because Sue's moving and switching from one team to the next.

称其为重组并不合适，因为苏正在从一个团队转移到另一个团队。

I think reorg again...

我觉得又要重组了...

Reorganization is a traditional word.

重组是一个传统词。

It implies on the large, it implies top-down changes that you have say no. It's something different than what I consider reteaming, which is these five patterns that happen at different levels.

总的来说，它意味着你已经拒绝的自上而下的改变。这与我所认为的重组不同，重组是在不同级别发生的五种模式。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So let me just repeat back these five.

让我重复一下这五个。

So one by one, basically people joining your team, leaving your team, something very natural.

所以基本上人们一一加入你的团队，离开你的团队，这是很自然的事情。

People do all the time.

人们一直都这样做。

Lenny: Or your company, yeah.

莱尼：或者你的公司，是的。

Growing, splitting a team gets really large and then it's like, okay, let's just split this into two, focus them on specific things instead of this one team trying to cover too much.

随着团队的成长，团队的分裂变得非常大，然后就好像，好吧，让我们把它分成两部分，让他们专注于特定的事情，而不是让一个团队试图涵盖太多内容。

Merging teams, the opposite of that.

合并团队，则相反。

Isolation.

隔离。

I want to chat about that one a little more where you just have a team off to the side and they're just dedicated to something that you find really important.

我想多谈谈这个问题，你只有一个团队在一旁，他们只是致力于你认为真正重要的事情。

So with isolation, you have this awesome story of your time at a company called Expertcity, which turned into something people know most likely and ended up being a great outcome because of this reteaming into an isolation team.

因此，通过隔离，您可以在一家名为 Expertcity 的公司度过一段精彩的故事，该公司变成了人们最有可能知道的东西，并且由于重新组建了隔离团队而最终成为了一个伟大的结果。

Could you talk about that?

你能谈谈这个吗？

Heidi Helfand: Yeah, so I've been at different startups that have grown bigger and one of them, I was the 15th employee.

Heidi Helfand：是的，我曾在不同的初创公司工作过，这些公司都规模不断壮大，其中之一是我，我是第 15 名员工。

I started as a web editor and became an interaction designer.

我最初是一名网页编辑，后来成为一名交互设计师。

And we were going to change the world and it was very exciting.

我们要改变世界，这非常令人兴奋。

We were in Santa Barbara, California.

我们当时在加利福尼亚州圣巴巴拉。

So the company's called Expertcity.

所以这家公司被称为 Expertcity。

And we were working on our first product, which was a marketplace for tech support.

我们正在开发我们的第一个产品，这是一个技术支持市场。

So imagine you have a problem on your computer, you can go to our website and then you can select an expert to see and control your screen to help you solve your tech support challenge.

因此，假设您的计算机出现问题，您可以访问我们的网站，然后您可以选择专家来查看和控制您的屏幕，以帮助您解决技术支持挑战。

And so we had the screen sharing technology that we were inventing in the company.

因此，我们拥有了我们在公司发明的屏幕共享技术。

We had the web-based software to manage the interaction between the customer and the expert.

我们有基于网络的软件来管理客户和专家之间的互动。

We had the experts.

我们有专家。

We had in-house experts and then the vision was global worldwide experts.

我们有内部专家，然后我们的愿景是全球专家。

You were going to be like this marketplace, this eBay of services is what we talked about in the early days.

你会像这个市场，这个 eBay 服务就是我们早期讨论的。

I was really into this.

我真的很喜欢这个。

Heidi Helfand: This was my first job in tech and I became an interaction designer working on kind of front-end UI flows with engineers.

Heidi Helfand：这是我在科技领域的第一份工作，我成为了一名交互设计师，与工程师一起研究前端 UI 流程。

It's actually before the word interaction designer, my title was navigation designer.

实际上在交互设计师这个词之前，我的头衔是导航设计师。

We made this up.

这是我们编出来的。

So I was very into...

所以我非常喜欢...

It was before the words like UX and other things.

它出现在诸如用户体验和其他事物之类的词之前。

People were talking about information architecture and other sub-genres of design.

人们正在谈论信息架构和其他设计子流派。

And we had individual offices.

我们有单独的办公室。

I had all the interaction flows on my walls.

我把所有的交互流程都挂在了墙上。

I was really into the words and one day I was in there and we were working on a new flow.

我真的很喜欢这些话，有一天我在那里，我们正在研究一种新的流程。

We had all these hopes and dreams for this product and the CEO came into my office and he said, "Heidi, stop working on the marketplace.

我们对这个产品抱有所有这些希望和梦想，首席执行官来到我的办公室，他说：“海蒂，停止在市场上工作。

We're not going to do that product anymore.

我们不会再做那个产品了。

We're killing it because nobody's buying it and made six bucks or something last month." And he said, "Go to the beach." We were by Santa Barbara.

我们正在消灭它，因为没有人买它，上个月只赚了六美元什么的。”他说：“去海滩吧。”我们在圣巴巴拉附近。

I'm like, "What do you mean go to the beach?" He's like, "Well, I don't want you to start any work that you're going to have to maintain later as we figure out our next step." And I was like, "Okay."

我说：“你说去海滩是什么意思？”他说：“好吧，我不希望你开始任何在我们确定下一步计划时必须维护的工作。”我当时想，“好吧。”

Heidi Helfand: I remember that day and I'm looking around my office and all these flows on the walls.

海蒂·赫尔芬德：我记得那天，我环顾我的办公室，所有这些都在墙上流动。

So really these were domains like domain-driven design.

所以实际上这些都是领域驱动设计之类的领域。

It was all these web domains and which user interactions were going to happen and all these hopes and dreams and it was the first time in my career where we were told not to work on something.

正是所有这些网络领域以及将要发生的用户交互以及所有这些希望和梦想，这是我职业生涯中第一次被告知不要从事某些事情。

It wasn't paused.

并没有暂停。

Some people say, "Oh, we're going to pause this," and then they never get back to it.

有些人说，“哦，我们要暂停这个”，然后他们就再也没有回过头来。

This thing was like .

这件事就像是。

And I didn't get it.

我没明白。

I just didn't get it.

我只是不明白。

I cried, I acted out, I sent this email like, "How can we kill the marketplace?

我哭了，我表现得很糟糕，我发送了这封电子邮件，“我们怎样才能扼杀市场？

It must live." It was quite an experience.

它必须活下去。”这真是一次经历。

Heidi Helfand: But then, and I don't know what the timing was, I was invited to be on this team off to the side and there was market validation going on.

Heidi Helfand：但是后来，我不知道时机是什么，我被邀请加入这个团队，并且正在进行市场验证。

Our founders and product and others became students of market validation, Four Steps to the Epiphany.

我们的创始人、产品和其他人都成为了市场验证、顿悟的四个步骤的学生。

So we had built this thing, we spent all this time on this marketplace, but nobody would buy it.

所以我们建造了这个东西，我们花了所有时间在这个市场上，但没有人会买它。

And so it was like do or die.

所以这就像要么做要么死。

We had to shift.

我们不得不改变。

This was before lean startup.

这是在精益创业之前。

So Four Steps to the Epiphany was the book, it was the manual, it was guiding the way.

所以，《主显节的四个步骤》是一本书，是手册，是指导方针。

And so there were people that had a ton of conversations with potential customers about this new thing that we were going to build.

因此，有人与潜在客户就我们将要构建的这个新产品进行了大量对话。

Heidi Helfand: And so I was invited to be at this team off to the side and there was a small team and we didn't have to do waterfall software development.

Heidi Helfand：所以我被邀请加入这个团队，这是一个小团队，我们不需要进行瀑布式软件开发。

We were freed from that.

我们从此摆脱了束缚。

We were liberated from that.

我们从此摆脱了束缚。

We got to work in other ways.

我们必须以其他方式工作。

And I remember working with an engineer and we were figuring out how to create a forgot password flow because none of these patterns existed back then and we got to do this stuff.

我记得与一位工程师一起工作，我们正在研究如何创建忘记密码流程，因为当时这些模式都不存在，我们必须做这些事情。

We got to deploy more frequently and the product was called GoToMyPC where you could see and operate someone's computer from a distance.

我们必须更频繁地部署，该产品称为 GoToMyPC，您可以在其中远程查看和操作某人的计算机。

And that was essentially the pivot that I feel like saved the company.

我认为这本质上是拯救公司的关键。

Later we went on, we got folded back into the teams and we built GoToMeeting and GoToWebinar as a technical project manager at that time.

后来我们继续前进，我们又回到了团队中，当时我们作为技术项目经理创建了 GoToMeeting 和 GoToWebinar。

So taking a team off to the side, giving that team process freedom.

因此，将一个团队放在一边，给予该团队流程自由。

They didn't want us distracted from the drag.

他们不想让我们从拖累中分心。

Heidi Helfand: When you're working on an existing product line, you get this cadence and it can become a mature cadence.

Heidi Helfand：当您在现有产品线上工作时，您会得到这种节奏，并且它可以成为成熟的节奏。

Maybe people work in two weeks or one week now, but when you're working on something new, you need faster iteration loops.

也许人们现在需要两周或一周的时间才能完成工作，但是当您正在研究新事物时，您需要更快的迭代循环。

And our founders knew that need.

我们的创始人知道这种需求。

So it was a privilege and I was delighted to be part of this other team and it was really, really exciting.

所以这是一种荣幸，我很高兴成为另一个团队的一员，这真的非常令人兴奋。

So then looking back over the years, I was like, yeah, isolated teams, beneficial silos.

所以回顾这些年来，我的感觉是，是的，孤立的团队，有益的孤岛。

Again, it's going against green of what some of these books say, oh, you want to desilo everything?

再说一次，这违背了一些书中所说的绿色，哦，你想设计一切吗？

No, sometimes there's a reason why you have a problem.

不，有时候你遇到问题是有原因的。

You want to solve the problem.

你想解决问题。

This was like, I mean, was this company going to go under?

这就像，我的意思是，这家公司会倒闭吗？

I didn't think of those kind of things at the time because I was just super into the work and very passionate and motivated about what we were building.

我当时并没有想到这些事情，因为我非常投入这项工作，并且对我们正在构建的东西充满热情和动力。

But yeah, isolation pattern came up and we used it at another startup as well ever since.

但是，是的，隔离模式出现了，从那时起我们也在另一家初创公司使用它。

Heidi Helfand: So yeah, that's the story of Expertcity and from my perspective.

Heidi Helfand：是的，从我的角度来看，这就是 Expertcity 的故事。

Ask different people at different vantage points, but that...

从不同的角度询问不同的人，但...

If we would've stayed within our teams and we would've had to develop with pixel-perfect mockups done in Photoshop like, "Here you go," I don't think we would've been fast enough.

如果我们留在我们的团队中，并且我们必须使用 Photoshop 中完成的像素完美的模型进行开发，就像“给你”，我认为我们的速度还不够快。

That was not good for the innovation that we needed.

这对于我们需要的创新不利。

So it's also like innovation by isolation.

所以这也就像孤立的创新。

It's good for emergencies.

这对于紧急情况很有用。

I was at another startup, we had performance issues with our first product.

我在另一家初创公司，我们的第一个产品遇到了性能问题。

People left teams, brought a consultant in, went into a conference room for a couple of weeks, figured out some major changes that needed to happen, solve them, went back to the teams.

人们离开团队，引入顾问，进入会议室几周，找出需要发生的一些重大变化，解决它们，然后回到团队。

This is not a new concept.

这不是一个新概念。

The Chicken McNugget was saved by an isolated team, SWAT team.

麦乐鸡被一支孤立的队伍——特警队拯救了。

Heidi Helfand: There's a book called Teamwork.

海蒂·赫尔芬德：有一本书叫《团队合作》。

It's an old book from, I think the '70s, I have in my bookshelf here, and there's a story of the Chicken McNugget that you can read about where they brought in a consultant and had a very small team who worked in a different...

这是一本老书，我想是 70 年代的书，我的书架上有这本书，里面有一个关于麦乐鸡的故事，你可以读到他们聘请了一名顾问，并组建了一个非常小的团队，在不同的...

They didn't work in their same plant where they were developing the product.

他们并不在开发产品的同一家工厂工作。

They worked in a different plant.

他们在不同的工厂工作。

They reported straight up to one of the executives at McDonald's.

他们直接向麦当劳的一位高管汇报。

And yeah, the Chicken McNugget lived on because it was like having challenges in the test marketplace in Indianapolis.

是的，麦乐鸡继续存在，因为它就像在印第安纳波利斯的测试市场中遇到的挑战一样。

So we didn't make this up.

所以这不是我们编出来的。

It's just like some of these things are kind of like, "Oh, it's like a noticing," and then you're like, "Oh, that's pattern." So it's collection.

就像其中一些事情有点像，“哦，这就像一个注意到”，然后你会说，“哦，这就是模式。”所以说是收藏。

Lenny: There's this idea of a startup within a big company.

莱尼：有一个大公司内部创业的想法。

Everyone's like, "Oh, it's just like the startup within a big company.

每个人都会说，“哦，这就像大公司内的初创公司一样。

We have all the resources that we need.

我们拥有我们需要的所有资源。

There's no less risk, but we can innovate and try new things." Rarely does it feel like it work out.

风险并没有减少，但我们可以创新并尝试新事物。”很少有人感觉它成功了。

You're sharing stories where it does.

你正在分享故事。

Is there anything you found or any advice for how to actually be successful in this idea of having a team off to the side doing something innovative and different?

对于如何真正成功地让团队去做一些创新和不同的事情，您有什么发现或建议吗？

Heidi Helfand: At AppFolio we did this.

Heidi Helfand：在 AppFolio，我们做到了这一点。

So there's a company called SecureDocs; it branched off into its own company and it was just acquired, I believe in 2022.

于是就有了一家名为 SecureDocs 的公司；它成立了自己的公司，并且刚刚被收购，我相信是在 2022 年。

When SecureDocs was happening, I was not on that team.

当 SecureDocs 出现时，我并不在该团队中。

I was on the other teams and I was watching, and again, same pattern.

我在其他球队，我再次观察到同样的模式。

A team was created off to the side and they were given process freedom.

一个团队被临时创建，他们被赋予了流程自由。

They worked in more of a daily sprint style as opposed to the two-week sprint style that our other teams were doing at the time at early AppFolio.

他们的工作方式更像是每日冲刺风格，而不是我们其他团队当时在早期 AppFolio 所做的两周冲刺风格。

And so, one, isolate the team or put them in a different area.

因此，第一，隔离团队或将他们放在不同的区域。

We could still see them.

我们仍然可以看到他们。

We were in this big open room, but it was their team area.

我们在这个开放的大房间里，但那是他们的团队区域。

I mean we had these impermanent walls between some of the teams.

我的意思是，我们的一些团队之间存在着永久性的墙。

It was their region and they claimed it and they named themselves.

这是他们的地区，他们声称拥有它并为自己命名。

Heidi Helfand: And so, one, separate location.

Heidi Helfand：所以，一个单独的地点。

There's another story in the book about a team that incubated a product idea within Citrix and they were in a garage of all places, so they were really isolated.

书中还有一个故事，讲述的是一个团队在 Citrix 内部孵化一个产品创意，但他们都在车库里，所以他们真的很孤立。

But just put the team in a different region, make it that area.

但只需将团队放在不同的区域，使其成为那个区域。

That's number one.

这是第一。

Heidi Helfand: Number two, tell other people not to disturb this team.

Heidi Helfand：第二，告诉其他人不要打扰这个团队。

That's key.

这是关键。

And hearing it from a leader is really, really important.

听取领导者的意见真的非常非常重要。

No, you're not going to pull them into something else.

不，你不会把他们拉到别的事情上。

They're working on this other thing.

他们正在研究另一件事。

So people need to shed their skin of the other things that they're working on.

因此，人们需要摆脱他们正在做的其他事情。

If you take a bigger picture, kind of forest through the trees picture, you want people pairing and switching pairs so they're not single owners of the system.

如果你有更大的视野，比如树木中的森林，你希望人们配对和交换配对，这样他们就不是系统的单一所有者。

So when they have an opportunity to do something that could be really important to the company beyond one of these isolated teams, they can fade out and not be the only owner that has to transfer knowledge and then field questions for two years on how that system works.

因此，当他们有机会做一些对公司来说真正重要的事情，而不仅仅是这些孤立的团队之一时，他们可以淡出，而不是成为唯一一个必须转移知识，然后在两年内就该系统如何运作提出问题的所有者。

You want to build this redundancy in your teams.

您希望在您的团队中建立这种冗余。

So that's like if you really want to plan ahead, do that first.

所以这就像如果你真的想提前计划，就先这样做。

Have that as part of how you operate, building this team redundancy and switching, because then it frees people to not be the only owner of a system and chained to a system.

将其作为您运营方式的一部分，建立团队冗余和切换，因为这样可以使人们不再是系统的唯一所有者并被束缚在系统上。

Heidi Helfand: And so isolate them.

Heidi Helfand：所以隔离他们。

Tell people not to bother them.

告诉人们不要打扰他们。

Do pairing and have shared ownership so it's easier for somebody to switch into something like this.

进行配对并共享所有权，这样某人就可以更容易地切换到类似的东西。

Process freedom.

过程自由。

Again, they can do things differently.

同样，他们可以以不同的方式做事。

Ideally they report up to someone that really has decision-making authority and decisions won't get reversed.

理想情况下，他们向真正拥有决策权的人汇报，并且决策不会被推翻。

Or they have to go through some complex web of like, "Is it okay if we do this?" No, you need a clear decision-making structure.

或者他们必须经历一些复杂的网络，比如“我们这样做可以吗？”不，你需要一个清晰的决策结构。

They saw that at the McDonald's case study as well, which is not in my book, but it's in book called Teamwork.

他们在麦当劳的案例研究中也看到了这一点，这不在我的书中，但在《团队合作》一书中。

Heidi Helfand: And then that group, having that senior leader that they report into, getting the clear lines of communication there is also really important.

海蒂·赫尔芬德（Heidi Helfand）：然后，该团队拥有向其汇报的高级领导者，在那里建立清晰的沟通渠道也非常重要。

So not having this heavyweight bureaucracy of, I don't know, quarterly business updates where everybody's making a slide deck for two years before they go to that meeting, trying to relieve the team of things like that and make it lighter.

因此，没有这种重量级的官僚机构，我不知道，季度业务更新，每个人在参加会议之前都会花两年时间制作幻灯片，试图减轻团队的负担并使其变得更轻松。

Heidi Helfand: And some of these teams, like SecureDocs became another product at AppFolio that was very, very successful.

Heidi Helfand：其中一些团队，例如 SecureDocs，成为 AppFolio 的另一个非常非常成功的产品。

At one point, I think it was before we went public, it branched off into its own separate entity.

我认为在我们上市之前，它曾一度分支成自己独立的实体。

I think maybe they shared a board member or something.

我想也许他们有共同的董事会成员或其他什么人。

I don't know how that worked, but it became its own entity.

我不知道这是如何运作的，但它成为了自己的实体。

SecureDocs became separate and then it grew from there.

SecureDocs 独立出来，然后从那里发展壮大。

And then it became this wonderful successful product that was recently acquired.

然后它就成为了最近收购的这款出色的成功产品。

People come and go at companies and companies grow and change and morph, and that was one case of departures that it's like bitter, sweet.

人们在公司里来来去去，公司不断成长、变化、变形，这是一种既苦又甜的离职案例。

You're happy for your friends and colleagues say, "Oh, he's going to be a CTO.

您很高兴您的朋友和同事说：“哦，他将成为首席技术官。

He's going to be the CTO."

他将担任首席技术官。”

Heidi Helfand: There's this entity.

Heidi Helfand：有这个实体。

I remember visiting their office in Santa Barbara.

我记得参观过他们在圣巴巴拉的办公室。

It's great to see your friends succeed and thrive.

很高兴看到您的朋友成功并蓬勃发展。

And we developed other companies in that way.

我们也以这种方式发展了其他公司。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I think it's really nice to hear there's many success stories of this idea of a mini little startup within a company, and these are really good tips.

我认为很高兴听到有很多关于公司内小型初创公司想法的成功故事，这些都是非常好的建议。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Ahrefs.

莱尼：这一集是由 Ahrefs 为您带来的。

Many of you already know Ahrefs as one of the top tools for search engine optimization.

许多人已经知道 Ahrefs 是搜索引擎优化的顶级工具之一。

It's used by thousands of SEOs and companies like IBM, Adidas and eBay.

数以千计的 SEO 和 IBM、阿迪达斯和 eBay 等公司都在使用它。

What you may not know is that there's a free version that was made with small website owners in mind.

您可能不知道的是，有一个免费版本是专为小型网站所有者设计的。

It's called Ahrefs Webmaster Tools.

它称为 Ahrefs 网站管理员工具。

It's free and it can help you bring more traffic to your website.

它是免费的，可以帮助您为您的网站带来更多流量。

Ahrefs Webmaster Tools will show you keywords that you rank for and back links that you can get.

Ahrefs 网站管理员工具将向您显示您排名的关键字以及可以获得的反向链接。

It also performs automated site audits to find what issues prevent your website from ranking higher on Google.

它还执行自动网站审核，以找出哪些问题阻止您的网站在 Google 上排名更高。

Every detected issue comes with a detailed explanation and advice on how to fix it.

每个检测到的问题都附带详细的解释和如何修复的建议。

Visit ahrefs.com/awt, set up a free account, connect your website and start improving it.

访问 ahrefs.com/awt，设置免费帐户，连接您的网站并开始改进它。

That's A-H-R-E-F-S.com/awt.

那是 A-H-R-E-F-S.com/awt。

Lenny: I feel like to me one of the most important ones you've talked to.

莱尼：我觉得我是与你交谈过的最重要的人之一。

And this is having an executive essentially sponsoring this team and supporting and protecting it versus some managers just like, now we're going to go do this off to the side, because otherwise no one's going to really take that seriously.

这就是让一位高管赞助这个团队并支持和保护它，而不是像一些经理一样，现在我们要暂时搁置这件事，因为否则没有人会真正认真对待这一点。

Heidi Helfand: Yeah, I think that's really, really important.

海蒂·赫尔芬德：是的，我认为这非常非常重要。

I'll also say that things don't always succeed a hundred percent.

我还要说，事情并不总是百分百成功。

I've seen isolated teams within companies where someone has the opportunity to sell something, they talk to their friends who are the engineers who build the feature for them, but then it leaves something for other people to maintain later and they weren't involved in the decisions.

我见过公司内的孤立团队，其中有人有机会出售某些东西，他们与为他们构建功能的工程师朋友交谈，但随后留下了一些东西供其他人稍后维护，而他们没有参与决策。

And it can be a big mess for all of these patterns there.

对于所有这些模式来说，这可能会变得一团糟。

It's like kind of like balconies and basements.

就像阳台和地下室一样。

You can screw it up too.

你也可以把它搞砸。

It's not all stuff is hard.

并不是所有的事情都很难。

That's why I like to lean into it and I've written about it.

这就是为什么我喜欢深入研究它，并且我已经写过相关文章。

Things take effort.

事情需要努力。

The tree is going to drop the leaves and you got to sweep them up.

树上的叶子即将落下，你必须把它们扫起来。

Everything takes work and effort.

一切都需要工作和努力。

Lenny: We've talked about the isolation pattern.

Lenny：我们已经讨论过隔离模式。

I thought it'd be good to talk through the rest of the patterns real quick and share maybe one or two tips for how to be successful or make it work well or better.

我认为最好快速讨论其余的模式，并分享一两个关于如何成功或使其运作良好或更好的技巧。

Lenny: Before you start, actually, I think I missed a nuance and you corrected me, but I think I missed it, which is for the one-on-one pattern, it's actually describing joining the company specifically not joining a team.

Lenny：在你开始之前，实际上，我认为我错过了一个细微差别，你纠正了我，但我认为我错过了它，这是一对一的模式，它实际上描述的是加入公司，而不是加入团队。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Heidi Helfand: Yeah.

海蒂·赫尔凡德：是的。

And in the book it might be a little blurred because this is like some of the...

在书中，它可能有点模糊，因为这就像一些......

Switching and one by one sound very similar, and they do have some Venn diagram overlaps, but I'll distinguish them as I talk about them.

切换和一一听起来非常相似，它们确实有一些维恩图重叠，但我会在谈论它们时区分它们。

Heidi Helfand: So one by one, someone joins your company or they leave your company.

Heidi Helfand：所以一一地，有人加入你的公司，或者他们离开你的公司。

So the tip with one by one is when someone joins, help them feel a sense of belonging, and you can do that through not having their first day be them sitting over there alone.

因此，一一的建议是，当有人加入时，帮助他们感受到归属感，而你可以通过不让他们第一天独自坐在那儿来做到这一点。

You could have someone have a first pair.

你可以让人拥有第一双。

There's a chapter in my book about onboarding.

我的书中有一章是关于入职的。

This is in the space of onboarding.

这是在入职空间中。

Also with one by one, when people join, you also need to pay attention to the people who are already there and it's good for them to know when someone is joining the company; that it shouldn't be a surprise.

还有一一来说，当有人加入的时候，你还需要关注已经在的人，让他们知道什么时候有人加入公司是有好处的；这并不奇怪。

So visualizing the hiring and the opportunities is something that I think is a really good idea.

因此，我认为将招聘和机会可视化是一个非常好的主意。

It could be challenging for someone if somebody joins and they become their manager, but what if that person wanted to be the manager and then they brought in someone from the outside to become the manager?

如果有人加入并成为他们的经理，这对某人来说可能是一个挑战，但如果这个人想成为经理，然后他们从外部引进某人成为经理怎么办？

Heidi Helfand: So you need to pay attention to the new hires that are joining, help them feel a sense of belonging, get them to talk about themselves, which is said to increase their sense of connection and retention.

Heidi Helfand：所以你需要关注新加入的员工，帮助他们感受到归属感，让他们谈论自己，据说这可以增加他们的联系感和保留感。

There's some research in the book The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle, which talks about that.

丹尼尔·科伊尔（Daniel Coyle）所著的《文化密码》（The Culture Code）一书中有一些研究讨论了这一点。

But then it's also important to coach the people through change that are already at the company, especially if they weren't involved in the particular decision, bringing on this new leader that comes in and brings in all their people.

但是，通过公司已有的变革来指导员工也很重要，特别是如果他们没有参与特定的决策，请引入新的领导者，让他们所有的员工都加入进来。

So you got to pay attention to different people.

所以你要注意不同的人。

Heidi Helfand: Grow and split is a natural thing that happens when you're like startup scale up and growing bigger and bigger.

Heidi Helfand：当你的初创公司规模不断扩大、规模越来越大时，成长和分裂是很自然的事情。

The first team probably grows bigger and then splits into two or three.

第一个团队可能会变得更大，然后分成两到三个。

So when the team gets bigger, facilitation and communication tends to break down.

因此，当团队规模扩大时，促进和沟通往往会崩溃。

So some signals that teams might bring up when they feel like a change might be helpful is the meetings are taking longer.

因此，当团队觉得改变可能有帮助时，他们可能会提出一些信号，即会议时间更长。

You're in that case where it's harder to make decisions.

在这种情况下，你很难做出决定。

It was easier when there were like five of us, but now they're 13.

当我们只有 5 个人的时候，事情比较容易，但现在他们已经 13 个人了。

The work becomes divergent.

工作变得发散。

They're working on this one thing, they're working on something else.

他们正在做这一件事，他们正在做另一件事。

No one's paying attention in the standup so much anymore because this work has diverged.

没有人再那么关注站立表演了，因为这项工作已经发生了分歧。

And those are a few of the signals.

这些只是其中的一些信号。

And then someone typically brings it up.

然后通常会有人提出来。

If you normalize the idea that it's okay for teams to have input into their future structures, maybe they'll bring it up and decide that, "Hey, it might be better if we split."

如果你把这样的想法正常化，即团队可以对未来的结构进行投入，也许他们会提出来并决定，“嘿，如果我们分开可能会更好。”

Heidi Helfand: Sometimes splitting though can create dependencies that weren't there when you were together as one team.

Heidi Helfand：有时，分裂会产生依赖关系，而当你们作为一个团队在一起时，这种依赖关系是不存在的。

So you inherit other problems or you might inherit challenges like, all right, the team decides it's far effective if they split into two or three, but we just have one product manager, we just have one designer.

因此，你会继承其他问题，或者你可能会继承挑战，比如，好吧，团队认为如果他们分成两到三个，那会非常有效，但我们只有一名产品经理，我们只有一名设计师。

We just have one person who helps us anticipate quality challenges.

我们只有一个人可以帮助我们预测质量挑战。

So it's a lot of problem trading when you do a lot of this stuff.

所以当你做很多这样的事情时，交易就会出现很多问题。

Like anything, you have a challenge, how might we solve it?

就像任何事情一样，您面临挑战，我们如何解决它？

Well, there's option A, option B and option C.

嗯，有选项A、选项B和选项C。

So that's grow and split and it's very common I think when your company is growing and changing, kind of like that.

所以这就是成长和分裂，我认为当你的公司成长和变化时，这是很常见的，有点像这样。

Heidi Helfand: Merging is the opposite of grow and split.

Heidi Helfand：合并与增长和分裂相反。

Two or more teams combine together.

两个或多个团队联合在一起。

Or at a higher level, a company acquires another company and then there's a merging that happens.

或者在更高的层面上，一家公司收购了另一家公司，然后发生了合并。

So merging I think is related to when companies downsize or shrink, things consolidate, come together, or again, when at the company level companies combine, one acquires another, gets acquired.

因此，我认为合并与公司规模缩小或收缩、事物整合、合并有关，或者同样，当在公司层面上公司合并时，一个公司收购另一个公司，被收购。

How that goes down varies, but there's this concept called panarchy that I write about in my book that a lot of these changes is changes at the individual level, the team level, the team of teams level, department level, the company level.

具体发生的方式各不相同，但我在书中写到了一个叫做泛权制的概念，其中很多变化是个人层面、团队层面、团队层面、部门层面、公司层面的变化。

So yeah, merging.

所以是的，合并。

So there's a business decision that the companies merge together and then changes might ensue.

因此，公司做出了合并在一起的商业决策，然后可能会发生变化。

Heidi Helfand: So maybe the company wants to get ahead on building and having another vertical in their SaaS company.

Heidi Helfand：所以也许该公司希望在他们的 SaaS 公司中建立并拥有另一个垂直行业。

We acquired a company at AppFolio to bring us faster into workflow software for law firms.

我们收购了 AppFolio 的一家公司，以便更快地进入律师事务所的工作流程软件领域。

So we acquired a company based in San Diego, and that got us a couple of years ahead.

因此，我们收购了一家位于圣地亚哥的公司，这让我们领先了几年。

I remember one of the leaders saying that.

我记得一位领导说过这样的话。

So again, we weren't involved...

再说一次，我们没有参与其中......

I wasn't involved in this decision as an IC at the time.

当时我并没有作为 IC 参与这个决定。

So it could be a business decision for merging at that level.

因此，这可能是该级别合并的商业决策。

It could be that people leave, there are departures and teams and responsibilities consolidate together.

可能会有人员离开、离职、团队和职责合并在一起。

That's merging.

这就是合并。

So it could be that kind of shrinking that we're seeing.

所以我们看到的可能是这种萎缩。

It could be that the company is having one leader instead of three and there's a consolidation and the teams kind of merge together.

公司可能只有一名领导者而不是三名，并且进行了整合，团队也合并在一起。

So it's the opposite of grow and split.

所以它与增长和分裂相反。

Heidi Helfand: One activity I do like to do with teams that merge is called story of our team.

Heidi Helfand：我喜欢与合并团队一起进行的一项活动称为我们团队的故事。

That's in chapter 13 of the second edition.

这是第二版第 13 章中的内容。

So with story of our team, each team makes a timeline of...

因此，根据我们团队的故事，每个团队都会制定一个时间表......

They stand in order of when they joined their team and they make a timeline with milestones of when they joined their team, when people left, and significant events and things they created that they're excited about and that they're proud of.

他们按照加入团队的时间顺序排列，并制定一个时间表，其中包含他们加入团队的时间、人们离开的时间以及他们创造的令他们兴奋和自豪的重大事件和事物的里程碑。

And that they branch together with their newly merged team, and then it's good to get a shared sense of history.

他们与新合并的团队一起分支，然后获得共同的历史感是件好事。

So you have these teams or companies that come together, they make shared timelines, they share their milestones and things that they built that they're proud of.

因此，这些团队或公司聚集在一起，他们制定共同的时间表，他们分享他们的里程碑以及他们所建立的令他们感到自豪的东西。

They tell each other about it and then they have a sense of like, "Wow, we didn't know that.

他们互相告诉对方这件事，然后他们有一种感觉，“哇，我们不知道这一点。

Oh, I didn't know that you had built a system like that.

哦，我不知道你建立了这样的系统。

We did too." Or, "We've never built anything like that.

我们也这么做了。”或者，“我们从来没有建造过这样的东西。

That is so cool.

那太酷了。

What did you learn from that?" We get to learn about each other and then we're together.

你从中学到了什么？”我们开始互相了解，然后我们就在一起了。

We're like, "All right, we're this merged entity now.

我们就像，“好吧，我们现在是这个合并的实体了。

What's next?" Looking out to the future so we have the same shared vision.

接下来怎么办？”展望未来，让我们拥有共同的愿景。

So I love doing that.

所以我喜欢这样做。

There's different tactics you can do before, during, and after each of these patterns.

在每种模式之前、期间和之后，您可以采取不同的策略。

Yeah, that's merging.

是的，这就是合并。

Heidi Helfand: Isolation we talked about before.

Heidi Helfand：我们之前谈到过隔离。

Put the team up to the side, give them process freedom, have them report up to a decision maker, tell the other teams not to bother them.

把团队放在一边，给他们流程自由，让他们向决策者报告，告诉其他团队不要打扰他们。

Let them work at the cadence that they want to work at.

让他们按照自己想要的节奏工作。

That makes it easier.

这样就更容易了。

If you are doing a short-term thing, you got to work it out with the larger entity so you don't create something in isolation that other people have to maintain.

如果你正在做一件短期的事情，你必须与更大的实体一起解决它，这样你就不会孤立地创建其他人必须维护的东西。

There's ways that this can be messed up.

有一些方法可以把事情搞砸。

Heidi Helfand: And then switching.

Heidi Helfand：然后切换。

Switching pattern is really tied to learning and development and fulfillment.

转换模式确实与学习、发展和成就感息息相关。

It could be that you want to work with other people.

您可能想与其他人一起工作。

Like forming, storming, norming, performing, Tuckman's model, he forgot the phase called stagnating.

就像塔克曼的模型中的形成、冲击、规范、表演一样，他忘记了所谓的停滞阶段。

Sometimes it feels like we're in a team for too long.

有时感觉我们在一个团队中呆得太久了。

We're tired of working with these people.

我们厌倦了与这些人一起工作。

We want a little variety.

我们想要一点多样性。

We want to work with that person over there.

我们想和那边的那个人一起工作。

Or maybe we want to work on a new system.

或者也许我们想开发一个新系统。

We don't have the opportunity to do that in our current team, but what if we could work on that system over there with those people?

我们目前的团队没有机会这样做，但是如果我们可以和那些人一起开发那个系统呢？

It could totally refresh us.

它可以让我们彻底焕然一新。

It could be like having a new job within our same company.

这可能就像在我们同一家公司找到了一份新工作。

It could extend the lifespan of the amazing employee in your company.

它可以延长公司优秀员工的寿命。

So switching is tied to that kind of fulfillment, which is one of the reasons why I made it separate from one by one and tied that to the company.

所以跳槽是和那种成就感联系在一起的，这也是我把它一一分开，然后和公司联系在一起的原因之一。

Heidi Helfand: The other thing with switching is that you could create safety nets in your company through switching.

Heidi Helfand：跳槽的另一件事是，你可以通过跳槽在公司中创建安全网。

I just wrote a newsletter post about this yesterday because maybe we're going to have some more changes this year.

我昨天刚刚写了一篇关于此的时事通讯文章，因为也许今年我们会做出更多改变。

Maybe companies are going to be hiring less.

也许公司会减少招聘。

I don't like the thought of companies downsizing or having layoffs or anything like that, but I think to myself, well, have multiple owners of a system.

我不喜欢公司缩小规模或裁员或类似的想法，但我认为，一个系统有多个所有者。

So not only one person is that tower of knowledge that owns that one system.

因此，拥有该系统的知识塔并不只有一个人。

There's some stories in my book where I interviewed Richard Sheridan, who is the chief storyteller and co-founder of a wonderful company called Menlo Innovations in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

在我的书中有一些故事，我采访了理查德谢里丹，他是密歇根州安娜堡一家名为 Menlo Innovations 的出色公司的首席故事讲述者和联合创始人。

They built their company Menlo to have people work in pairs.

他们建立了 Menlo 公司，让人们结对工作。

Not just the software engineers; team members work in pairs and they switch pairs at a regular cadence.

不仅仅是软件工程师；团队成员两人一组工作，并定期轮换。

And you know that when you're joining the company because you're involved in some kind of pairing.

当你加入公司时，你知道这一点，因为你参与了某种配对。

So there's parity from when you're interviewing to when you're at the company.

因此，从面试时到进入公司时，情况都是平等的。

Heidi Helfand: But switching also helps build that knowledge redundancy in your company.

Heidi Helfand：但跳槽也有助于在公司中建立知识冗余。

A little more about tolerance.

更多关于宽容的内容。

So if someone leaves, they don't leave with all the information in their head.

因此，如果有人离开，他们不会带着所有信息离开。

We had that.

我们有那个。

At that first startup Expertcity, we had some single owners of systems and when they left, it just becomes a challenge and a setback.

在第一家初创公司 Expertcity 中，我们有一些系统的单一所有者，当他们离开时，这只是一个挑战和挫折。

And at AppFolio we shared a founder between the first startup and the second startup.

在 AppFolio，我们第一家初创公司和第二家初创公司共用一位创始人。

Many of their early engineers from that first startup went to the second startup.

他们的许多早期工程师从第一家初创公司转到了第二家初创公司。

Heidi Helfand: I was 10th at AppFolio.

Heidi Helfand：我在 AppFolio 中排名第十。

I was 15th at Expertcity.

我在 Expertcity 中排名第 15。

So we wanted to work together.

所以我们想一起工作。

So it was that global idea of switching one by one or similar.

所以这是一种逐一切换或类似的全局想法。

But anyway, at the second startup we had the chance to do things differently.

但无论如何，在第二次创业时，我们有机会做不同的事情。

So we had pairing and switching pairs and test-driven development.

所以我们进行了结对和交换结对以及测试驱动的开发。

We had help to do that, but this kind of redundancy built safety into our systems, especially when AppFolio is processing a lot of rent payments.

我们得到了帮助来做到这一点，但这种冗余为我们的系统带来了安全性，特别是当 AppFolio 处理大量租金时。

There's a lot of money.

有很多钱。

There's ACH going through.

ACH 正在通过。

Those are critical systems and it's very important that things are safe and secure.

这些都是关键系统，确保安全非常重要。

You don't want to haphazardly switch people around.

你不想随意更换人员。

You can screw this up, again, that balconies and basements concept.

你可以再次搞砸阳台和地下室的概念。

You don't want somebody over here, they will switch every two weeks and have no say in their team.

你不希望有人在这里，他们每两周就会更换一次，并且在团队中没有发言权。

There's ways to screw all of this up, but there's other ways to do it well.

有很多方法可以把这一切搞砸，但还有其他方法可以把这一切做好。

Heidi Helfand: I remember when we were at our first team at AppFolio and we did a grow and split.

Heidi Helfand：我记得当我们在 AppFolio 的第一个团队时，我们经历了成长和分裂。

It grew and it split into two or three teams.

它逐渐成长并分裂成两三个团队。

I remember there was a loss for some of the engineers who wanted to pair program with some of the other engineers, and they started a regular rotation themselves from one team to the next, and that brought fulfillment.

我记得一些工程师想要与其他一些工程师结对编程，但他们自己开始定期轮换，从一个团队到下一个团队，这带来了成就感。

It brought joy.

它带来了欢乐。

I mean they would see each other in the workspace every day, but they wanted to work together.

我的意思是他们每天都会在工作场所见面，但他们想一起工作。

It brought them learning joy and fulfillment, and I love that.

它给他们带来了学习的快乐和成就感，我喜欢这一点。

For those who are like keep the team stable and the same forever, I'm like, "Well, what about that?" It brings me satisfaction and joy when I see my colleagues.

对于那些希望保持团队稳定且永远不变的人，我会想，“那怎么样？”当我看到我的同事时，它给我带来满足和快乐。

It's like autonomy, mastery, purpose, like Dan Pink's book Drive, when people are really given some agency and the opportunity to work a little bit differently than maybe that traditional boxed version you might see on my bookshelf.

这就像自治、掌握、目标，就像丹·平克（Dan Pink）的书《驾驶》（Drive）一样，当人们真正被赋予一定的代理权和机会时，他们的工作方式可能与你在我书架上看到的传统盒装版本略有不同。

You can really create not only products that people love, but companies that people love and want to be at.

你不仅可以真正创造人们喜爱的产品，还可以创造人们喜爱并想加入的公司。

Lenny: All these stories of team changes and reorg, it made me think about a quote that one of my managers always used to say about reorging and changing teams is that there's no perfect org structure.

Lenny：所有这些关于团队变革和重组的故事，让我想起了我的一位经理在谈到团队重组和变革时经常说的一句话，那就是不存在完美的组织结构。

There's only the best idea you have at the time for what the org could be.

对于组织可能是什么样子，只有你当时拥有的最好的想法。

And then there's the issues with that org that you identify as you're putting in place and then set up processes and systems around to try to catch that dependencies, as you said, or overlap of ownership.

然后，您在实施过程中发现了该组织的问题，然后围绕该组织建立流程和系统，以尝试捕获这种依赖关系（如您所说）或所有权重叠。

Is there anything along those lines that comes up of just things you found of just like, there's never going to be the perfect way to do it.

有没有什么东西是由你发现的东西组成的，就像永远不会有完美的方法一样。

This is just our best idea at the time and here's how we deal with the downsides of this approach?

这只是我们当时最好的想法，下面是我们如何处理这种方法的缺点？

Heidi Helfand: Yeah, I think there's a lot of wisdom to what your manager said and your colleague there because yeah, I mean as time goes on, conditions change.

海蒂·赫尔芬德：是的，我认为你的经理和同事所说的话很有智慧，因为是的，我的意思是随着时间的推移，情况会发生变化。

We evolve and change.

我们不断发展和改变。

We're subject to different influences.

我们受到不同的影响。

COVID happens.

新冠疫情发生了。

We weren't dealing with that 10 years ago.

10年前我们还没有处理过这个问题。

We grow and adapt and morph.

我们成长、适应、变形。

We try to get together and make the best decisions that we can when we're faced with challenges, and a lot of it is problem trading.

当我们面临挑战时，我们会尽力团结起来，做出最好的决定，其中很多都是问题交易。

We have this challenge today.

我们今天面临这个挑战。

We decide, oh, there's a few ways we could handle this.

我们决定，哦，有几种方法可以解决这个问题。

Pros and cons of each solution.

每种解决方案的优点和缺点。

It's like the Toyota Kata, like grasp the current condition.

这就像丰田Kata一样，把握当前的状况。

You'll experience you have challenges.

你会遇到挑战。

What's the next evolution or the next target condition?

下一个演变或下一个目标条件是什么？

How might you get there?

你怎样才能到达那里？

And then you're there and you're like, okay, grasp the current target condition.

然后你就感觉，好吧，掌握当前的目标条件。

What's it like?

它是什么样的？

What are you experiencing?

你正在经历什么？

Oh, we might try this.

哦，我们可以试试这个。

We're always transforming from the current state to the future state.

我们总是在从当前状态向未来状态转变。

Heidi Helfand: So to that, I would ask people, well, how do you want that to be?

海蒂·赫尔芬德：对此，我会问人们，你希望怎么样？

And how do you want to show up and be as a leader?

您想如何表现并成为领导者？

You want to just be like, "All right, I've got to get this done.

你只想说，“好吧，我必须完成这件事。

The reorg is done by an email and we're just sending it out, or this small team change.

重组是通过电子邮件完成的，我们只是将其发送出去，或者是这个小的团队变更。

And here it is; it's done.

就是这样；完成了。

Goodbye." Or is it a little bit where you get people's input?

再见。”或者你可以在其中听取人们的意见吗？

And that in itself, you got to weigh what you're dealing with, again.

就其本身而言，你必须再次权衡你正在处理的事情。

But I like to think about that.

但我喜欢思考这一点。

What kind of leader do you want to be?

你想成为什么样的领导者？

Leaders need patience.

领导者需要耐心。

It's hard to be a leader.

当领导很难。

It's challenging, but what kind of an environment or vibe do you want to cultivate in your teams and what do you want the people to be like?

这很有挑战性，但你想在团队中培养什么样的环境或氛围，以及你希望员工是什么样的？

Heidi Helfand: I have a degree in teaching English and applied linguistics, and I remember studying Paulo Freire and other educational problem-posing methods of education.

Heidi Helfand：我拥有英语教学和应用语言学学位，我记得学习了 Paulo Freire 和其他提出问题的教育方法。

We have these teams that solve these complex problems and challenges and build these really cool things for customers.

我们的团队可以解决这些复杂的问题和挑战，并为客户构建这些非常酷的东西。

Let's involve them in some of the org decisions that are going to be part of their daily life.

让他们参与一些将成为他们日常生活一部分的组织决策。

Really, you like that idea.

真的，你喜欢这个主意。

Again, it's not perfect.

再说一次，它并不完美。

You can't involve people on everything, especially if they're wide-scale changes that you just can't.

你不可能让人们参与所有事情，尤其是当它们是你无法做到的大规模变革时。

Lenny: Along these lines of doing things badly sometimes, you have this whole section on anti-patterns of reteaming.

Lenny：沿着有时做坏事的思路，你可以看到整节内容都是关于重组的反模式。

I think there's about five of them.

我想大约有五个人。

I don't know if you have these all top of mind, but if you do, I'd love to hear some anti-patterns.

我不知道您是否最关心这些，但如果您这样做，我很想听到一些反模式。

Heidi Helfand: Yeah.

海蒂·赫尔凡德：是的。

Well, one of them is people always think that reteaming is, you have a pool of people and you're assigning them to a bunch of different projects like, "Okay, you'll work 10% on this one, 5% on this one, 20% on this one.

嗯，其中之一是人们总是认为重新团队是，你有一群人，你把他们分配给一堆不同的项目，比如，“好吧，你会在这个项目上工作 10%，在这个项目上工作 5%，在这个项目上工作 20%。

We are going to allocate the resources from our component-based teams into these different projects." We did that in Waterfall like many years ago, but that doesn't really work.

我们将把基于组件的团队的资源分配到这些不同的项目中。”我们像很多年前一样在 Waterfall 中这样做了，但这并没有真正起作用。

A lot of the times the percentages don't add up.

很多时候，百分比并不能相加。

It's very hard for people to multitask and be involved in multiple efforts at once.

人们很难同时处理多项任务并参与多项工作。

It's hard for the brain with all the context switching that needs to happen in that case.

在这种情况下，大脑需要进行所有的上下文切换，这对大脑来说是很困难的。

So I call that the percentage anti-pattern.

所以我称之为百分比反模式。

Heidi Helfand: There's also, I probably wrote about it like, poof, they're gone or suddenly they're here.

海蒂·赫尔芬德（Heidi Helfand）：还有，我可能会这样写，噗，他们走了或者突然就在这里。

Reteaming or having people suddenly show up and you weren't expecting them or suddenly they're gone and there's no communication around it whatsoever, that's another anti-pattern.

重新组队或者有人突然出现而你没有预料到他们或者他们突然离开并且没有任何沟通，这是另一种反模式。

Lenny: One of the ones I love is this idea of spreading high performers.

莱尼：我喜欢的想法之一就是传播高绩效人才的想法。

This idea of we're going to spread the high performers across other teams.

我们将把高绩效人员分散到其他团队中。

Heidi Helfand: That's an AppFolio story.

Heidi Helfand：这是一个 AppFolio 的故事。

Jon Walker was telling me back in the day that...

乔恩·沃克那天告诉我……

I mean, he did this experiment.

我的意思是，他做了这个实验。

He had this thought that many of...

他有这样的想法，很多人...

There's one team that was like, I guess they were delivering at this cadence that they loved and they were building this stuff and there's this energy and you can almost feel it.

有一个团队就像，我想他们正在以他们喜欢的节奏交付，他们正在构建这些东西，并且有这种能量，你几乎可以感觉到它。

Like let's just spread the people from that team across the other ones and then we'll have that.

就像让我们将那个团队的人员分散到其他团队中，然后我们就可以了。

And it didn't work.

但它不起作用。

He didn't have that.

他没有那个。

It didn't happen.

它没有发生。

And that was a visceral learning for him that it doesn't essentially work.

他发自内心地认识到这根本不起作用。

And people are like, what does it take to be a high performing team?

人们会问，如何才能成为一个高绩效的团队？

What does it take to have that magical team experience where there's that chemistry and the people are together?

怎样才能拥有那种充满化学反应且人们在一起的神奇团队体验？

And there's stories in the book.

而且书里还有故事。

Damon Valenzona was telling me one about how it's like's a band and we're with off each other.

达蒙·瓦伦佐纳 (Damon Valenzona) 告诉我，我们是一支乐队，我们彼此分离。

We're creating this music together.

我们正在一起创作这种音乐。

So John felt like he essentially destroyed that when he split up that team.

所以约翰觉得当他分裂那个团队时，他基本上摧毁了这一点。

So that's the story that inspired that anti-pattern.

这就是激发这种反模式的故事。

Lenny: The reason people are worried about reteams and reorgs is this...

莱尼：人们担心重组和重组的原因是……

A lot of times it's exact reason that you just shared, which is our team is amazing.

很多时候这就是你刚刚分享的确切原因，这就是我们的团队太棒了。

I don't want it to change.

我不想让它改变。

I don't want to split.

我不想分开。

I don't want to add anyone.

我不想添加任何人。

I don't want to remove anyone.

我不想删除任何人。

I guess is there anything else along those lines to help people feel better about, no, this is actually going to be okay and/or it's inevitable.

我想还有其他什么可以帮助人们感觉更好吗，不，这实际上是没问题的和/或这是不可避免的。

It's not going to last.

它不会持续太久。

Heidi Helfand: I think sometimes you have that awesome team situation.

Heidi Helfand：我认为有时候你的团队情况很棒。

It's an enjoyable experience.

这是一次愉快的经历。

People are learning.

人们正在学习。

You're looking forward to it every day.

你每天都在期待它。

You're delivering the stuff that people love.

您正在提供人们喜欢的东西。

You're telling people what's going on.

你正在告诉人们发生了什么事。

You have that matched expectation where people aren't breathing down your neck because it's late or something.

你有这样的期望，人们不会因为太晚了或者其他什么原因对你的脖子紧追不舍。

Sometimes you want to keep that team together.

有时你想让团队保持团结。

You don't want to destroy that dynamic.

你不想破坏这种动力。

But the thing is, maybe that's a small startup that grows and you need to grow because you have a bigger vision and it needs to be more than these 10 people.

但问题是，也许这是一家正在成长的小型初创公司，你需要成长，因为你有更大的愿景，而且需要的不仅仅是这 10 个人。

And so there is sometimes this feeling of loss, like, "This is our company.

所以有时会有这种失落感，比如，“这是我们的公司。

This is my experience at this company of 10 people, but suddenly we're 20 people.

这是我在这家 10 个人的公司的经历，但突然我们就变成了 20 个人。

It doesn't feel the same like it did anymore and it feels different."

感觉不再像以前一样，而且感觉不一样了。”

Heidi Helfand: And people, they always ask the question, "How do we maintain our culture?

海蒂·赫尔芬德：人们总是问这样的问题：“我们如何维护我们的文化？

It feels different than it was before." The thing is, it is different, and our companies go through stages.

感觉和以前不一样了。”事实是，这是不同的，我们的公司会经历不同的阶段。

The company of today is not the company it was a year ago.

今天的公司已经不是一年前的公司了。

The people turn over and change, what we work on turns over and change.

人们会发生翻天覆地的变化，我们所做的事情也会发生翻天覆地的变化。

The whole world and industry and global events change and put different pressures on us, and we got to live in this global context.

整个世界、行业和全球事件都在变化，给我们带来了不同的压力，我们必须生活在这样的全球背景下。

So nothing lasts.

所以没有什么是永恒的。

Sometimes I have a picture of myself holding an ice cream cone that's melting.

有时我会看到自己拿着正在融化的蛋卷冰淇淋的照片。

Not to be a total downer, but appreciate it when you're on a team and you love it and it's amazing because these are our lives and we have to have gratitude and appreciate what we have because naturally things evolve and change.

不要完全沮丧，而是要感激当你在一个团队中并且你喜欢它时，这真是太棒了，因为这就是我们的生活，我们必须心存感激并欣赏我们所拥有的，因为事情自然会发展和变化。

It's just inevitable.

这是不可避免的。

So we appreciate what we have.

所以我们珍惜我们所拥有的。

Heidi Helfand: A lot of us can look back on our careers and remember those times when we were, in my case, skipping through the halls because I was so happy.

海蒂·赫尔芬德（Heidi Helfand）：我们中的很多人都可以回顾自己的职业生涯，并记得那些时光，就我而言，因为我非常高兴而跳过大厅。

And I was like I couldn't even tell you.

我什至无法告诉你。

Well, why was I skipping through the halls at that moment?

那么，为什么我当时要在大厅里蹦蹦跳跳呢？

What was it?

那是什么？

Well, it was the people and the conditions and what we were doing and the time, the era almost because yeah, it does change.

嗯，这是人和条件以及我们正在做的事情和时间，时代几乎因为是的，它确实发生了变化。

Heidi Helfand: There's a book by Ichak Adizes called Managing Corporate Lifecycles.

Heidi Helfand：Ichak Adizes 有一本名为《管理企业生命周期》的书。

It's one that many of us read for years at AppFolio, maybe the previous company as well.

这是我们许多人在 AppFolio 读了很多年的一本，也许之前的公司也是如此。

The Adizes Institute influenced some of our leaders and they influenced us with this.

阿迪兹研究所影响了我们的一些领导人，他们也以此影响了我们。

And it talks about the different stages of companies from birth.

它讲述了公司从诞生开始的不同阶段。

There's go-go stage, maturity, death of companies.

公司有发展阶段、成熟阶段、死亡阶段。

These are like lifecycles.

这些就像生命周期。

The company grows and changes and morphs and changes.

公司不断成长、变化、变形、变化。

The people in the teams do that as well.

团队里的人也这样做。

I have an ecocycle in my book where I talk about that kind of aging and changing.

我的书中有一个生态循环，我在其中谈论了这种老化和变化。

Then there's a disruption and you have a new beginning.

然后就会出现中断，你就有了一个新的开始。

We're part of these stories that are in progress.

我们是这些正在进行的故事的一部分。

This is not an unchanging, unmoving entity that we work in.

这并不是我们工作的一个一成不变、一动不动的实体。

So just be kind to each other, enjoy your experiences and learn as much as you can.

所以，要善待彼此，享受你的经历并尽可能多地学习。

Lenny: It reminds me of advice Sheryl Sandberg shared when she came to the Airbnb offices.

莱尼：这让我想起谢丽尔·桑德伯格 (Sheryl Sandberg) 来到 Airbnb 办公室时分享的建议。

Someone asked her: "What advice do you have to deal with all this constant change?" Like the quote I shared at the top of the episode of every six months, there's a massive reorg.

有人问她：“面对这些不断的变化，你有什么建议？”就像我在每六个月的剧集开头分享的那句话一样，有一次大规模的重组。

Our culture's changing.

我们的文化正在发生变化。

Teams keep changing.

团队不断变化。

It's constant flux.

这是恒定的通量。

What is your advice to deal with that?

您对此有何建议？

And her advice was: That is good.

她的建议是：那很好。

The fact that you're growing so fast and having to change is the best case scenario because the alternative is you are not growing and it's much harder and much more painful because the changes are much harder.

事实上，你成长得如此之快并且必须改变，这是最好的情况，因为另一种情况是你不再成长，这会更困难、更痛苦，因为改变更困难。

People get let go.

人们得到释放。

Your business may go away.

你的生意可能会消失。

So her advice is just, this is good.

所以她的建议只是，这很好。

Change means things are...

改变意味着事情...

And growth leads to change, especially hypergrowth, and that you should appreciate this time versus be afraid of it and think that it's a negative.

增长会带来变化，尤其是高速增长，你应该欣赏这一次，而不是害怕它并认为这是负面的。

Heidi Helfand: And it seems like she had such a wide vantage point and could see the forest through the trees of the fact that, well, this company's doing well and this is why we're growing and changing.

Heidi Helfand：她似乎拥有如此广阔的视角，可以透过树木看到森林，事实是，这家公司做得很好，这就是我们成长和改变的原因。

And I remember one of my leaders, CTO Jon Walker, AppFolio, he told me that once too.

我记得我的一位领导者、AppFolio 首席技术官乔恩·沃克 (Jon Walker)，他也曾这样告诉过我。

He was like...

他就像...

I'd be having a problem or something and I'd come to him and he'd always say to me, "It's always great to be at a successful company, Heidi." And it's like, well, yeah, sometimes you don't think about the finances when you're in your day to day and you have a problem with another person or they come to you and they have a problem with this other person.

当我遇到问题或其他事情时，我会去找他，他总是对我说：“在一家成功的公司工作总是很棒，海蒂。”就像，嗯，是的，有时当你在日常生活中与另一个人有问题时，或者他们来找你，与另一个人有问题时，你不会考虑财务问题。

But in the grand scheme of it, how is the company doing?

但从长远来看，公司的表现如何？

It's really a critical vantage point that we need to remind ourselves of.

这确实是我们需要提醒自己的一个关键有利位置。

But yeah, I wouldn't say all change is always good.

但是，是的，我不会说所有的改变总是好的。

Your mileage may vary there, but the general idea that the company is doing well, you're growing and changing, you're trying to make things happen, I think is definitely the space I'd rather be in than the opposite.

你在那里的里程可能会有所不同，但总的想法是公司做得很好，你正在成长和改变，你正在努力让事情发生，我认为这绝对是我宁愿进入的空间，而不是相反。

Lenny: And I think it's especially true for people that haven't worked at a company that didn't work out where they think this sucks when really this is pretty good compared to all the things that could be happening.

莱尼：我认为对于那些没有在一家公司工作过的人来说尤其如此，他们没有弄清楚他们认为这很糟糕，而实际上与所有可能发生的事情相比，这已经相当不错了。

Heidi Helfand: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

海蒂·赫尔芬德：是的，是的，当然。

So we coach and help each other as we go along.

因此，我们在前进的过程中互相指导和帮助。

Lenny: Final question before we get to a very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，最后一个问题。

Used to work with John Cutler, who was a previous guest on this podcast, and he had a question that he wanted me to ask you.

曾经与约翰·卡特勒一起工作，他是这个播客的前任嘉宾，他有一个问题想让我问你。

He said that, "Heidi is one of the best listeners I've ever worked with." And so the question is, what's your secret to being a good listener?

他说：“海蒂是我合作过的最好的听众之一。”那么问题来了，你成为一名优秀倾听者的秘诀是什么？

Heidi Helfand: Well, listening is a muscle to build and to always work on.

海蒂·赫尔芬德：嗯，倾听是一种需要培养和持续锻炼的肌肉。

You got to put your attention out.

你得把注意力转移出去。

Focus on the other person.

专注于对方。

Sometimes if I'm looking down, maybe I reconnect and look at them.

有时，如果我低头，也许我会重新连接并看着它们。

You got to read body language and other things.

你必须阅读肢体语言和其他东西。

I'm trained as a co-active coach, which involves different levels of listening.

我接受的培训是一名合作教练，其中涉及不同程度的倾听。

So you have level one, which is internal listening.

所以你有第一级，即内部倾听。

Like if you and I are talking, but I'm thinking about what am I going to have for lunch?

就像你和我在说话，但我在想午餐吃什么？

I'm in level one.

我在一级。

I've got to redirect it out to you and focus on you.

我必须将其重定向给你并专注于你。

So when I focus on you is I'm in level two listening.

所以当我专注于你时，我处于第二级倾听。

I'm putting my attention out and I'm really anchoring towards you.

我正在把注意力集中在你身上。

It's a coaching skill.

这是一种教练技巧。

Heidi Helfand: And then level three is global listening, environmental listening.

Heidi Helfand：第三级是全球聆听，环境聆听。

If a marching band suddenly walked behind you, I'm going to point that out because it's in my field.

如果一支军乐队突然走到你身后，我会指出来，因为这是在我的领域。

I'm not going to ignore that.

我不会忽视这一点。

I'm going to bring that up.

我要提出这个问题。

So we pay attention to the vibe and the feel in the room and where we're at.

所以我们关注房间里的氛围和感觉以及我们所处的位置。

But then also if you're talking about something and suddenly you go like this or you have this kind of sudden pain in your neck when you're talking about this one thing, I might notice that you're doing this and touching your neck because that's information.

但是，如果你正在谈论某件事，突然你像这样说话，或者当你谈论这一件事时，你的脖子突然疼痛，我可能会注意到你正在这样做并触摸你的脖子，因为这是信息。

That's a kind of listening, and so I might ask you about that.

这是一种倾听，所以我可能会问你这个问题。

Or if the face turns red or you look down or away, it's another kind of listening.

或者，如果你的脸变红或者你低头或看向别处，这就是另一种倾听。

So Co-Active Training Institute, coactive.com is my co-active coaching training, so I learned it from them, Henry Kimsey-House and-

所以 Co-Active Training Institute，coactive.com 是我的 Co-Active 教练培训，所以我从他们那里学到了它，Henry Kimsey-House 和-

Lenny: Wow, that is an awesome answer.

莱尼：哇，这是一个很棒的答案。

There's a lot of depth there.

那里有很多深度。

So coactive.com, I'm going to check that out.

coactive.com，我要去看看。

So you actually got trained in this skill.

所以你实际上接受了这项技能的培训。

Okay, that's great.

好的，太好了。

That'll make people feel better.

这会让人们感觉更好。

They're like, okay, amazing.

他们就像，好吧，太棒了。

I'm going to check this out.

我要检查一下。

I'm going to try to be a better listener through the rest of this podcast episode from these tips.

我将根据这些技巧，在本播客节目的其余部分中尝试成为一名更好的听众。

Heidi Helfand: I will say that sometimes I'm not a good listener though.

Heidi Helfand：我会说，有时我不是一个好的倾听者。

Lenny: Yeah, so it goes.

莱尼：是的，就这样。

Heidi, is there anything else you wanted to touch on or share before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

海蒂，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想谈或分享的吗？

Heidi Helfand: I don't think so.

海蒂·赫尔芬德：我不这么认为。

I really appreciate your questions and talking with you.

我非常感谢您的提问并与您交谈。

Lenny: Well, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

莱尼：嗯，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Heidi Helfand: Leading Intelligent Teams is one, Liberating Structures is another one, and of course, Transitions by William Bridges.

海蒂·赫尔芬德（Heidi Helfand）：《领导智能团队》是其中之一，《解放结构》是另一本，当然还有威廉·布里奇斯（William Bridges）的《转变》。

I also like the Leader's Guide to Participatory Decision-Making.

我也喜欢《领导者参与决策指南》。

Lenny: Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

莱尼：最近有没有你真正喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Heidi Helfand: I did like The Bear, the cooking-related show, the restaurant-related show, and gets into the hospitality industry.

Heidi Helfand：我确实喜欢《熊》，这是一个与烹饪相关的节目，与餐厅相关的节目，并进入了酒店业。

I really like that.

我真的很喜欢这样。

Movies, there isn't really one that stands out.

电影，确实没有一部能脱颖而出。

I always look forward to being on an airplane to see what movies are playing, but no movie for you.

我总是期待着在飞机上看正在播放的电影，但没有适合你的电影。

Lenny: What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask people that you are interviewing?

莱尼：您最喜欢问正在面试的人的面试问题是什么？

Heidi Helfand: I always like to ask people, "Well, why do you want to join our company?

Heidi Helfand：我总是喜欢问人们，“那么，你为什么想加入我们公司？

What is it about working with us that would be exciting for you?

与我们合作的哪些方面会让您感到兴奋？

Why our company as opposed to another one?"

为什么是我们公司而不是另一家公司？”

Lenny: What do you look for in their answer that is a good sign?

莱尼：您在他们的回答中寻找什么是好兆头？

Heidi Helfand: They have some knowledge about what we do, what we build.

Heidi Helfand：他们对我们所做的事情、我们建造的东西有一定的了解。

Maybe they bring up that they've noticed something on one of the websites or a product launch that we just announced, just that maybe it's part of their story in their career.

也许他们会说他们在我们刚刚宣布的某个网站或产品发布会上注意到了一些东西，只是这可能是他们职业生涯故事的一部分。

They're going in this direction, and they heard about us and they thought, "Wow, I would love to work on that."

他们正在朝这个方向前进，他们听说了我们，他们想，“哇，我很乐意为此工作。”

Lenny: Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny：有没有您最近发现的最喜欢且真正喜欢的产品？

Heidi Helfand: I'm very into vintage clothing and specifically real wool cashmere, not synthetic blends.

Heidi Helfand：我非常喜欢复古服装，特别是真羊毛羊绒，而不是合成混纺面料。

I also like vintage blazers.

我也喜欢复古西装外套。

A lot of the times where I'm giving a talk, I'm wearing a vintage blazer.

很多时候我在演讲时都会穿着复古西装外套。

I really like the clothing and design, and I kind of really, really love unusual vintage pieces that I could find, but they do need to...

我真的很喜欢这里的服装和设计，而且我真的非常喜欢我能找到的不寻常的复古单品，但它们确实需要……

A lot of the fast fashion that's out there today is a lot of these blends with these materials that you've never heard of, but there's something special about vintage cashmere, for example.

如今的许多快时尚都与您从未听说过的材料混纺，但例如复古羊绒有一些特别之处。

Lenny: Do you have a source for some good stuff?

莱尼：你有好东西的来源吗？

Is it like eBay?

它像易趣吗？

Is it stores locally?

本地有专卖店吗？

Is there a site?

有网站吗？

Is there somewhere you're finding some good stuff?

你在哪里找到了一些好东西吗？

Heidi Helfand: I travel around the world and I give talks on reteaming.

Heidi Helfand：我环游世界并就重组进行演讲。

I do workshops.

我做研讨会。

And usually I go to vintage and antique stores.

通常我会去古董店和古董店。

I was just in Berlin.

我刚在柏林。

I was doing that.

我就是这么做的。

I was doing it in London.

我是在伦敦做的。

And yeah, I love thrifting, Salvation Army, Goodwill, any of these places that we have in many of the US cities, the Humana line of stores that I've been to in Europe and other places.

是的，我喜欢节俭，救世军，善意，我们在美国许多城市都有的这些地方，我在欧洲和其他地方去过的Humana系列商店。

I try to find the small, unusual antique places as well.

我也尝试去寻找那些小而不寻常的古董地方。

My aunt's an antique dealer in Michigan, and she doesn't specialize in vintage clothing, but I just love that idea of discovering unique and unusual things that maybe they remind you of times in the past.

我的阿姨是密歇根州的一名古董商，她并不专门经营复古服装，但我只是喜欢发现独特和不寻常的东西的想法，这些东西也许会让你想起过去的时光。

Maybe you find that, "Oh my gosh, we had that mug back in the '80s or whatever, or in the '90s." Things can kind of remind people of other times.

也许你会发现，“天哪，我们在 80 年代或其他什么时候，或者在 90 年代就有过那个杯子。”事物可以让人想起其他时代。

So I like that.

所以我喜欢这样。

I think there's information stored in unique items.

我认为信息存储在独特的物品中。

Lenny: Beautiful.

莱尼：美丽。

I bet Berlin has some really cool vintage stuff, really wacky stuff.

我敢打赌柏林有一些非常酷的复古东西，非常古怪的东西。

Heidi Helfand: Yeah, there's a lot of really interesting places to explore, and I think it's just so much more interesting than some of the brand new kind of stuff.

海蒂·赫尔芬德：是的，有很多非常有趣的地方值得探索，我认为这比一些全新的东西有趣得多。

Lenny: Agreed.

莱尼：同意。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often find yourself coming back to or sharing with friends or family, either in work or in life?

您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，无论是在工作还是生活中，您经常会想起或与朋友或家人分享？

Heidi Helfand: I like asking people how can you be kind to yourself?

海蒂·赫尔芬德：我喜欢问人们如何善待自己？

Heidi Helfand: I ask myself that too.

海蒂·赫尔芬德：我也这么问自己。

I used to run a lot in Santa Barbara at Ellwood, which is a beautiful trail that you can go down to the ocean, you come back up.

我曾经在圣巴巴拉的埃尔伍德跑步过很多次，那是一条美丽的小径，你可以一直走到海边，然后再回来。

It's like More Mesa in Santa Barbara, and I would run and then I'd be like, "God, this is so hard." And then I would walk for a little while and I'd think to myself, "Well, how can I be kind to myself?

就像圣巴巴拉的莫尔梅萨一样，我会跑步，然后我会说，“天哪，这太难了。”然后我会走一会儿，心里想：“好吧，我怎样才能善待自己呢？

I mean, what am I doing here?

我的意思是，我在这里做什么？

Does it have to be fast?

一定要快吗？

No. I am here to decompress and enjoy, so how can I be kind to myself?" I think sometimes I get hard on myself or have very high expectations kind of achiever mentality, and I've learned through the years that it's okay to slow down.

不是，我是来减压、享受的，怎么善待自己呢？”我想有时我对自己要求很高，或者抱有很高的期望，有一种成就者的心态，多年来我已经了解到，放慢脚步是可以的。

It's okay to not go, go, go the whole time.

一直不走、走、走也没关系。

So I would ask other people that as well, especially if they're going through a challenge or burning midnight oil or whatever.

所以我也会问其他人，尤其是当他们正在经历挑战或熬夜或其他什么的时候。

It's like, "What about self-care?

就像，“自我保健怎么样？

How can you be kind to yourself?"

你怎么能善待自己呢？”

Lenny: Beautiful.

莱尼：美丽。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

I was scouring your LinkedIn and I saw a quote from the CTO of AppFolio in his endorsement of you.

我在搜索您的 LinkedIn 时，看到了 AppFolio 首席技术官对您的认可的一句话。

Said that you were the unofficial director of fun at AppFolio.

说你是 AppFolio 的非官方娱乐总监。

Is there a story that comes to mind of something that you did at AppFolio that created a lot of joy and fun for the team?

您在 AppFolio 所做的一些事情给团队带来了很多欢乐和乐趣，您是否想到过这样的故事？

Heidi Helfand: We had these hack days, and I think they do that to this day.

Heidi Helfand：我们经历了黑客时代，我认为他们直到今天仍然如此。

So twice a year we'd bring people together and we copied and learned from Atlassian.

因此，我们每年两次将人们聚集在一起，向 Atlassian 进行复制和学习。

I remember we had calls with some coaches from Atlassian for how did they do their ShipIt Day, or they originally called it FedEx Day, changed it to ShipIt Day.

我记得我们曾与 Atlassian 的一些教练打过电话，询问他们如何开展 ShipIt Day，或者他们最初称之为 FedEx Day，后来改为 ShipIt Day。

We followed their model and we'd had this two o'clock on Thursday at two o'clock on Friday where we'd build whatever we wanted and we'd have a theme, and then we'd have goofy prizes at the end that were like traveling trophies.

我们遵循他们的模式，周四两点和周五两点，我们会建造任何我们想要的东西，我们有一个主题，然后我们会在最后得到愚蠢的奖品，就像旅行奖杯一样。

One of them was like a clickety-clack keyboard that we spray-painted gold by the railroad tracks, but people could work on anything.

其中一个就像一个咔哒作响的键盘，我们在铁轨旁喷上了金色，但人们可以在任何东西上工作。

There were teams that formed...

有一些团队组成了...

We did it with a self-selection marketplace.

我们通过自我选择市场做到了这一点。

People formed their topics and teams, and one team hid geocaches throughout Santa Barbara.

人们组成了自己的主题和团队，其中一个团队在圣巴巴拉各地隐藏了藏宝点。

They're there to this day because we registered them with the Geocaching website.

它们至今还在那里，因为我们在 Geocaching 网站上注册了它们。

Another team built a vintage video game machine, and it was in the dev room.

另一个团队建造了一台老式视频游戏机，放在开发室里。

Another one they catapulted.

他们弹射了另一架。

They built this...

他们建造了这个...

Is it a trebuchet?

它是投石机吗？

Heidi Helfand: That catapult this fruit in the parking lot.

Heidi Helfand：将这种水果弹射到停车场。

I don't know how we got away with that, but we were in the early days.

我不知道我们是如何摆脱这一困境的，但我们还处于早期阶段。

We did a lot of fun stuff like that, and you could work with different people, build these larger relationships, which later makes it easier for reteaming, because then later if you reteam, you're not strangers with people, so you want to cultivate the community.

我们做了很多类似的有趣的事情，你可以与不同的人合作，建立这些更大的关系，这使得以后重新组队变得更容易，因为以后如果你重新组队，你对人们并不陌生，所以你想培养社区。

So we had this department of fun.

所以我们这个部门很有趣。

We would plan the fun in a variety of other ways as well.

我们也会以各种其他方式计划乐趣。

Lenny: So fun.

莱尼：真有趣。

Heidi, you're awesome.

海蒂，你真棒。

I think we've helped a lot of people feel better about the endless change that they're probably going through right now.

我认为我们已经帮助很多人对他们现在可能正在经历的无休止的变化感觉更好。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find your book, find you online if they want to reach out, and how can listeners be useful to you?

人们可以在哪里找到您的书，如果他们想联系您，可以在网上找到您，听众如何对您有用？

Heidi Helfand: You can go to heidihelfand.com or Google my name and I come up.

Heidi Helfand：你可以访问 heidihelfand.com 或谷歌搜索我的名字，然后我就会出现。

Heidi@dynamicreteaming.com, heidi.helfand@gmail.com you can find me.

Heidi@dynamicreteaming.com、heidi.helfand@gmail.com 你可以找到我。

I'm out there.

我在外面。

And yeah, I love to work with companies and teams going through change, and I do that in a variety of ways.

是的，我喜欢与正在经历变革的公司和团队合作，我会通过多种方式做到这一点。

Teach workshops, do talks.

教授研讨会，进行演讲。

So if any of this is interesting, reach out.

因此，如果其中任何一个有趣，请联系我们。

Lenny: And then do you also consult and work with individual companies or not?

Lenny：那么您是否也与个别公司进行咨询和合作？

Heidi Helfand: I do.

海蒂·赫尔凡德：我愿意。

Yeah.

是的。

I do that now.

我现在就这么做。

I like to work on a retainer basis or I'll even join a team, so looking for the-

我喜欢在保留的基础上工作，或者我什至会加入一个团队，所以寻找-

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

And we'll link to all this stuff in the show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到所有这些内容。

Heidi, thank you again so much for being here.

海蒂，再次非常感谢你来到这里。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。