'Everyone’s an engineer now: Inside v0’s mission to create 100 million builders | Guillermo Rauch'

Guillermo Rauch: One of our users yesterday submitted feedback.

Guillermo Rauch：我们的一位用户昨天提交了反馈。

Guillermo Rauch: They were saying, "v0 is like a super genius five-year-old PhD with ADHD." I'm not going to oversell this.

Guillermo Rauch：他们说，“v0 就像一个患有多动症的超级天才五岁博士。”我不会过度推销这一点。

It knows everything about everything, but it has these sparks of brilliance.

它知道一切，但它有这些光彩的火花。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you think things are going to change for product managers, for product teams?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为对于产品经理和产品团队来说，事情将会发生怎样的变化？

Guillermo Rauch: People could be more full stack.

Guillermo Rauch：人们可以更加全栈。

Imagine a designer that can ship a fully baked product, a product manager that can prototype and ship to production.

想象一下，一名设计师可以交付完全烘焙的产品，一名产品经理可以制作原型并交付生产。

We shouldn't put limits on ourselves and what we can build, and what we can ship, and what we can dream about making possible on these web surfaces.

我们不应该限制自己以及我们可以构建什么、可以交付什么以及我们可以梦想在这些网络表面上实现什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: A lot of people are wondering, "What happens to engineers?

Lenny Rachitsky：很多人都想知道，“工程师会怎样？

Should I learn how to code?"

我应该学习如何编码吗？”

Guillermo Rauch: A lot of the programming jobs to be done that used to be specializations, I think, are going away, in a way.

Guillermo Rauch：我认为，在某种程度上，许多过去需要完成的专业化编程工作正在消失。

They're translation tasks, but knowing how things work under the hood is going to be very important for you because you're going to be able to influence the model and make it follow your intention a lot better.

它们是翻译任务，但了解事物背后的工作原理对您来说非常重要，因为您将能够影响模型并使其更好地遵循您的意图。

Lenny Rachitsky: We hear this word taste all the time, in terms of building taste, people are always like, "How the hell do I do that?"

Lenny Rachitsky：我们一直听到“品味”这个词，就建筑品味而言，人们总是会问，“我到底该怎么做？”

Guillermo Rauch: Taste, sometimes I think we think of as this inaccessible thing that, "Oh, that person was born with taste." I see it as a skill that it can develop.

吉列尔莫·劳赫：品味，有时我认为我们认为这是一种难以接近的东西，“哦，那个人天生就有品味。”我认为这是一种可以发展的技能。

I think is extremely important to try lots of products.

我认为尝试很多产品非常重要。

We have one of our internal operating principles as increasing exposure hours.

我们的内部运营原则之一是增加暴露时间。

Try to quantify how much time you expose yourself to watching how people use your products and you'll develop that muscle.

试着量化你花多少时间观察人们如何使用你的产品，你就会发展这种肌肉。

Lenny Rachitsky: Where do you think the biggest change is going to happen?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为最大的变化会发生在哪里？

Guillermo Rauch: We need to stop talking about AI at some point.

Guillermo Rauch：我们需要在某个时候停止谈论人工智能。

I just see a future where AI becomes synonymous with software.

我只是看到人工智能成为软件代名词的未来。

We build software and we use software to build software.

我们构建软件，并使用软件来构建软件。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Guillermo Rauch.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Guillermo Rauch。

Guillermo is the founder and CEO of Vercel, which, amongst other things, makes a product called v0, which has become one of the most popular AI website building tools in the world.

Guillermo 是 Vercel 的创始人兼首席执行官，该公司生产了一款名为 v0 的产品，该产品已成为世界上最受欢迎的人工智能网站构建工具之一。

He's also a legendary engineer and contributor to open source.

他也是一位传奇工程师和开源贡献者。

He's created some of those popular JavaScript frameworks in the world like Next.js and Socket.IO.

他创建了一些世界上流行的 JavaScript 框架，例如 Next.js 和 Socket.IO。

He's both a builder and is building a product that's going to change the way we all build products in the future.

他既是一名构建者，又正在构建一种产品，该产品将改变我们未来构建产品的方式。

This episode is incredible.

这一集令人难以置信。

If you want to really understand how product development is going to change with the rise of AI and what skills you should be focusing on right now, I highly recommend you keep listening.

如果您想真正了解随着人工智能的兴起，产品开发将如何变化以及您现在应该关注哪些技能，我强烈建议您继续聆听。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Also, if you become a yearly subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of Linear, Notion, Superhuman, Perplexity Pro, and Granola.

另外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的 Linear、Notion、Super human、Perplexity Pro 和 Granola。

Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com.

请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 进行查看。

With that, I bring you Guillermo Rauch.

接下来，我为您带来吉列尔莫·劳赫。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。

That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

Today, hundreds of companies are already by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow and Loom.

如今，已有数百家公司采用 WorkOS，其中包括您可能认识的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。

WorkoOs also recently acquired Warrant, the fine-grained authorization service Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.

WorkoOs 最近还收购了 Warrant，细粒度授权服务 Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。

This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.

这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。

If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, SCIM, or user management, you should consider WorkOS.

如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。

It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to one million monthly active users for free.

它是 Auth0 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。

Check it out at WorkOS.com to learn more.

请访问 WorkOS.com 了解更多信息。

That's workos.com.

那是workos.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。

When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast.

当谈到确保您的公司拥有一流的安全实践时，事情很快就会变得复杂。

Now you can assess risk, secure the trust of your customers, and automate compliance for SOC 2, ISO 27001, HIPAA, and more with a single platform, Vanta.

现在，您可以使用单一平台 Vanta 评估风险、确保客户的信任并自动实现 SOC 2、ISO 27001、HIPAA 等的合规性。

Vanta's market-leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance alongside reporting and tracking risk.

Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性以及报告和跟踪风险。

Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI.

此外，您还可以通过 Vanta AI 完成安全调查问卷来节省时间。

Join thousands of global companies that use Vanta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews.

加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。

Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.com/lenny.

访问vanta.com/lenny，可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元的优惠。

That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny.

那是 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny。

Guillermo, thank you so much for being here.

吉列尔莫，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Guillermo Rauch: Thanks for having me.

吉列尔莫·劳赫：谢谢你邀请我。

Longtime listener, first time, I guess participating in the podcast, and love being here.

长期听众，我想是第一次参加播客，并且喜欢在这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, I appreciate that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，我很感激。

Okay, I know you saw this, I did this survey recently where I asked my readers, "What tools do you use most in your day-to-day work as a product builder, as or product manager?" And in the category of engineering tools, v0 came in right below Cursor and GitHub for people's most used AI building tools.

好的，我知道您看到了这一点，我最近做了一项调查，我问我的读者，“作为产品构建者或产品经理，您在日常工作中最常使用哪些工具？”在工程工具类别中，v0 排在人们最常用的 AI 构建工具的 Cursor 和 GitHub 之下。

So clearly people love what you're doing.

很明显人们喜欢你所做的事情。

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, we're very happy to see that.

Guillermo Rauch：是的，我们很高兴看到这一点。

And for us, we're at the very beginning of the journey in some ways, because v0 is a relatively new tool, but for Vercel, our company has been around for a while.

对于我们来说，在某些方面我们正处于旅程的开始，因为 v0 是一个相对较新的工具，但对于 Vercel 来说，我们公司已经存在了一段时间了。

The way that I explain to people is, "Anytime you're using the internet, if there's a website or web application that's really fast, innovative, hopefully it's running on our platform." We're out there.

我向人们解释的方式是，“无论何时您使用互联网，如果有一个非常快速、创新的网站或网络应用程序，希望它在我们的平台上运行。”我们就在外面。

We are running a lot of websites at scale.

我们正在大规模运营许多网站。

If you watched the Super Bowl recently, three different companies were promoting digital products that were built and delivered on Vercel.

如果您最近观看了超级碗比赛，就会发现三个不同的公司正在推广在 Vercel 上构建和交付的数字产品。

So not only can you deploy your ideas and build them on Vercel, they can scale to huge volumes of traffic and huge audiences.

因此，您不仅可以在 Vercel 上部署并构建您的想法，还可以扩展到大量流量和大量受众。

Guillermo Rauch: So a lot of people know us because of a framework called Next.js.

Guillermo Rauch：很多人因为一个名为 Next.js 的框架而认识我们。

It's an open source framework based on the React technology, open source by Meta, and it powers some of the most innovative products on the internet.

它是一个基于 React 技术的开源框架，由 Meta 开源，它为互联网上一些最具创新性的产品提供支持。

So when you use Claude, or Grok, or Midjourney, you're using Next.js.

因此，当您使用 Claude、Grok 或 Midjourney 时，您就是在使用 Next.js。

You're using Vercel's technologies.

您正在使用 Vercel 的技术。

So with v0, what we're trying to do is, and it's funny, because you put us rightfully, I think, in the building or development category in that survey, but what we're trying to do with v0 is help more people participate in building software, increase the total addressable market of people that are actually shipping things, shipping real products.

因此，对于 v0，我们正在尝试做的是，这很有趣，因为我认为，在该调查中，您将我们正确地归入了构建或开发类别，但我们正在尝试用 v0 做的是帮助更多的人参与构建软件，增加实际运输东西、运输真实产品的人们的总目标市场。

And at the same time, just like you would with ChatGPT, we want v0 to be just extremely, extremely easy, and the outputs that it generates, make them as refined and realistic as possible.

与此同时，就像使用 ChatGPT 一样，我们希望 v0 非常非常简单，并且它生成的输出尽可能精致和现实。

The things that you created with v0 hopefully live up to that standard set by some of the best and largest websites on the internet.

您使用 v0 创建的内容有望达到互联网上一些最好和最大的网站设定的标准。

Lenny Rachitsky: I was going to ask you how v0 came out of Vercel, and my theory was it was like you guys are sitting around being like, "How do we get more people building websites?" And it's like, "Okay, let's just help them do it really easily." It's like TAM expansion for Vercel.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想问你们 v0 是如何从 Vercel 中诞生的，我的理论是你们坐在一起说，“我们如何让更多的人建立网站？”就像，“好吧，让我们帮助他们轻松地做到这一点。”这就像 Vercel 的 TAM 扩展。

Is that?

是吗？

Guillermo Rauch: In some ways what I've been doing for not only 10 years that I've been almost working on Vercel, but maybe my entire life because my strength as a developer is kind of meta.

Guillermo Rauch：从某些方面来说，我不仅在 Vercel 上工作了 10 年，而且可能是我一生的工作，因为我作为开发人员的优势是元。

It's been to create developer tools.

它是为了创建开发人员工具。

So I've created a bunch of open source frameworks that are really popular.

所以我创建了一堆非常受欢迎的开源框架。

So Next.js is one, but before that in a previous life, I created another tool called Socket.IO, which is a real-time communication mechanism that powers, for example, every time you use Notion, I think you interviewed Ivan, when Notion is to broadcast messages in real time to other collaborators, they use a real-time engine that I built for Socket.IO.

所以 Next.js 就是其中之一，但在此之前，我在前世创建了另一个工具，叫做 Socket.IO，它是一个实时通信机制，它提供动力，例如，每次你使用 Notion 时，我想你采访过 Ivan，当 Notion 向其他协作者实时广播消息时，他们使用我为 Socket.IO 构建的实时引擎。

Guillermo Rauch: So the reason that startups and companies have used my products in the past is because I took something that was very difficult to do, but very compelling.

Guillermo Rauch：所以初创公司和公司过去使用我的产品的原因是因为我做了一些很难做到但非常引人注目的事情。

It was with real-time in the past.

过去是实时的。

It's building cutting-edge applications on the web with Next.js.

它正在使用 Next.js 在网络上构建尖端应用程序。

And I try to make it as easy as possible.

我尽量让它变得尽可能简单。

But you still needed to know development skills.

但您仍然需要了解开发技能。

For us and the opportunity was if there is maybe five million React developers, which is the the library engine that we use, and there's maybe 20 million JavaScript developers, how many product builders are people with aspirations of building products exist?

对于我们来说，机会是，如果可能有 500 万 React 开发人员（我们使用的库引擎），并且可能有 2000 万 JavaScript 开发人员，那么有多少渴望构建产品的产品构建者存在？

My back of the napkin, minimum calculation is a hundred million.

我餐巾纸背面算了一下，最少是一个亿。

Guillermo Rauch: And I'll tell you, it's funny where I get that number from.

Guillermo Rauch：我告诉你，我从哪里得到这个数字很有趣。

Slack has about a hundred million monthly active users.

Slack 每月约有一亿活跃用户。

And what you do on Slack is you go in IT and you talk to people.

你在 Slack 上所做的就是进入 IT 领域并与人们交谈。

A lot of those people are building digital products.

其中很多人正在构建数字产品。

And they talk to one another about what they would want to see in the world.

他们互相谈论他们想在世界上看到什么。

They talk to customers through shared channels.

他们通过共享渠道与客户交谈。

I love that feature.

我喜欢这个功能。

We talk to a lot of the Vercel customers and they tell us, like, "I want to build this, I want to see that.

我们与许多 Vercel 客户交谈，他们告诉我们，“我想建造这个，我想看到那个。

I want this feature, I want that thing." So the opportunity with v0 was, it's not that you're going to stop talking to other people, but what if you could yap into the computer and see something happen, build a prototype, build your first version of a product, build a demo, build a full stack product, build it and ship it?

我想要这个功能，我想要那个东西。”因此，v0 的机会在于，并不是你要停止与其他人交谈，而是如果你可以对着计算机大喊大叫，看到发生了什么，构建一个原型，构建你的第一个产品版本，构建一个演示，构建一个全栈产品，构建并发布它，会怎么样？

Guillermo Rauch: And so the inspiration for it was very natural to the mission of Vercel.

Guillermo Rauch：因此，它的灵感对于 Vercel 的使命来说是非常自然的。

But concretely, the genesis, the story was when ChatGPT came out, we noticed that it was very good at writing the code that our tools used.

但具体来说，起源是当 ChatGPT 出现时，我们注意到它非常擅长编写我们的工具使用的代码。

So ChatGPT, right out of the bat, was good at JavaScript, was good at Tailwind, which is a CSS styling technology, was good at Next.js, and again, the power of open source.

因此，ChatGPT 一开始就擅长 JavaScript、Tailwind（一种 CSS 样式技术）、Next.js，以及开源的力量。

Our tools were already in the training data of the internet.

我们的工具已经存在于互联网的训练数据中。

And so that long-term bet and vision in open source really paid off.

因此，对开源的长期赌注和愿景确实得到了回报。

So because the models were so good at writing this kind of code, the idea for v0 came naturally from, "What if we could build a ChatGPT for building web products?"

因此，由于模型非常擅长编写此类代码，因此 v0 的想法自然而然地来自于“如果我们可以构建一个 ChatGPT 来构建 Web 产品会怎样？”

Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of that, I didn't actually know.

Lenny Rachitsky：说到这一点，我其实并不知道。

So I had Bolt's CEO on the podcast and he talked about how Claude kind of unlocked what they're doing and do you guys sit on ChatGPT and OpenAI's stuff?

所以我在播客上邀请了博尔特的首席执行官，他谈到了克劳德如何解锁他们正在做的事情，你们是否坐在 ChatGPT 和 OpenAI 的东西上？

Guillermo Rauch: We started out on OpenAI.

Guillermo Rauch：我们从 OpenAI 开始。

And we've always used a combination of models.

我们一直使用模型的组合。

It's funny, right now on Twitter there's thread with a million views of people trying to reverse engineer the prompt and the models they used.

有趣的是，现在 Twitter 上有一个帖子，有 100 万的浏览量，人们试图对提示和他们使用的模型进行逆向工程。

Guillermo Rauch: And they're all finding that there is all these kinds of different models that are specialists in different tasks.

Guillermo Rauch：他们都发现有各种不同的模型是不同任务的专家。

And there's a pipeline of models where a model could hand off work to another model.

并且有一个模型管道，一个模型可以将工作移交给另一个模型。

And so OpenAI, Gemini, Claude, but we predate Anthropic because I'll give credit to ChatGPT that the utility of it was so general purpose, but from the very first release, it was very good.

OpenAI、Gemini、Claude，但我们早于 Anthropic，因为我要归功于 ChatGPT，它的实用性是如此通用，但从第一个版本开始，它就非常好。

In fact, by the way, if I'm not mistaken, the first prototype of v0 might have even predated ChatGPT, or at the very least I think we were running on GPT 3.5.

事实上，如果我没记错的话，v0 的第一个原型甚至可能早于 ChatGPT，或者至少我认为我们运行在 GPT 3.5 上。

So we've always had this vision of unlocking more power for the web through LLMs, and there's a lot of very interesting technical details of why, by the way, LMs happen to be so good at the task of web design and web development that we could get into.

因此，我们一直有这样的愿景：通过法学硕士为网络释放更多力量，顺便说一句，有很多非常有趣的技术细节说明为什么法学硕士恰好擅长我们可以参与的网页设计和网页开发任务。

But it was the perfect timing for us.

但这对我们来说是完美的时机。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到这个话题。

That's actually a really good question.

这实际上是一个非常好的问题。

But let me ask a couple other questions here.

但让我在这里问其他几个问题。

In terms of v0, what's the scale at this point?

就 v0 而言，此时的规模是多少？

We hear all these numbers about all the folks in the space.

我们听到了有关该领域所有人的所有这些数字。

What can you share about what's happening with v0?

您能分享一下 v0 的进展情况吗？

Guillermo Rauch: I can share that it's growing exponentially, and that over 1.3 million users have interacted with v0 so far.

Guillermo Rauch：我可以分享的是，它正在呈指数级增长，到目前为止，已有超过 130 万用户与 v0 进行了交互。

We had our largest day ever yesterday and today, again, we're one of the largest customers of most of cloud providers at this point.

昨天我们经历了有史以来最大的一天，今天我们再次成为大多数云提供商的最大客户之一。

We're hitting the limits of every GPU, LLM infrastructure out there in the planet.

我们正在达到地球上每个 GPU、LLM 基础设施的极限。

And the most exciting thing for me is what I'm seeing people build with v0.

对我来说最令人兴奋的事情是我看到人们使用 v0 构建的东西。

So we launched a feature about a month ago, maybe even less than a month ago, called v0 Community.

因此，我们大约一个月前，甚至可能不到一个月前推出了一项功能，称为 v0 社区。

It already has 20,000 submissions.

它已经有 20,000 份提交。

I am sure people in your audience have used Figma, one of the things that I love about Figma is Figma files, that I can go and grab a starting point for something.

我确信你们的听众中的人都使用过 Figma，我喜欢 Figma 的原因之一就是 Figma 文件，我可以去抓住一些东西的起点。

It could be a logo, could be a menu, and you can start with something that someone has already contributed, like that spirit of open source.

它可以是一个徽标，可以是一个菜单，您可以从某人已经贡献的东西开始，就像开源精神一样。

Guillermo Rauch: And so in less than a month, I think we've done over 20,000 community submissions.

Guillermo Rauch：在不到一个月的时间里，我认为我们已经完成了 20,000 多份社区提交。

So we've learned so much about building AI products with this and we continue to open source and share our best practices.

因此，我们已经学到了很多关于以此构建人工智能产品的知识，并且我们将继续开源并分享我们的最佳实践。

But one of the things that I've definitely learned is prompting it seems like the easiest interface in the world because it's just an input and you put text in it.

但我确实学到的一件事是，它似乎是世界上最简单的界面，因为它只是一个输入，你可以在其中输入文本。

But there's a little bit of a writer's block sometimes.

但有时作家会遇到一些障碍。

So one of my favorite things that I've seen, and I'm even looking at the home page right now, and you can see a random assortment of community submissions.

这是我见过的最喜欢的东西之一，我什至现在正在查看主页，您可以看到社区提交的随机分类。

And they have 1,200 forks, and 1,500 forks, and 6,000 forks, and this is every time people saying like, "Oh, instead of starting from scratch, I'll start from this application that someone else has built and I'm going to prompt it to modify it and make it my own."

他们有 1,200 个叉子、1,500 个叉子和 6,000 个叉子，每次人们都会说，“哦，我不会从头开始，而是从别人构建的这个应用程序开始，我会提示它修改它并使其成为我自己的应用程序。”

Lenny Rachitsky: So the community submissions are people building apps on v0 and sharing what they built?

Lenny Rachitsky：社区提交的内容是人们在 v0 上构建应用程序并分享他们构建的内容？

Lenny Rachitsky: You can look at the code and fork it?

Lenny Rachitsky：你可以看看代码并分叉它吗？

Guillermo Rauch: It is becoming like a compounding investment.

Guillermo Rauch：它正变得像一项复利投资。

People share something, someone else grabs it, makes it better.

人们分享一些东西，其他人抓住它，让它变得更好。

Maybe you used it at that point.

也许你当时就用过它。

In many ways, I see this as the next evolution of GitHub, whereas GitHub, it was a marvel for software development because I don't know if you remember this, but the initial, little tagline underneath the GitHub logo was social coding.

从很多方面来说，我认为这是 GitHub 的下一个演变，而 GitHub 是软件开发的奇迹，因为我不知道你是否还记得这一点，但 GitHub 徽标下面最初的小标语是社交编码。

And it had this democratization effect of building software.

它具有构建软件的民主化效果。

But you still needed to know how to code.

但您仍然需要知道如何编码。

And so what we're after is social product building in many ways, everybody should be able to cook and share what they're building.

因此，我们追求的是以多种方式构建社交产品，每个人都应该能够烹饪并分享他们正在构建的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: I hadn't thought of it this way, but I love that it connects so much to your open source roots, where people are building on v0, and then sharing what they're building and then people can build off those things.

Lenny Rachitsky：我没有这样想过，但我喜欢它与开源根源有如此多的联系，人们在 v0 上构建，然后分享他们正在构建的内容，然后人们可以构建这些东西。

It's kind like an open source AI building experience.

这有点像开源人工智能构建体验。

Guillermo Rauch: It's fascinating, right?

Guillermo Rauch：这很有趣，对吧？

In many ways, if you think about the Git commit, the Git commit is super interesting.

从很多方面来说，如果你考虑一下 Git 提交，就会发现 Git 提交非常有趣。

If you watch how an engineer works, they look at a problem, they spend a lot of time in their code editor, and at the end they say, "I think I got it.

如果你观察工程师的工作方式，他们会发现问题，在代码编辑器中花费大量时间，最后他们说：“我想我明白了。

I think I've fixed it." And then they produce a Git commit.

我想我已经修好了。”然后他们生成一个 Git 提交。

They summarize their intent and what they try to do after they've done the work.

他们总结了自己的意图以及完成工作后尝试做的事情。

v0 inverts that.

v0 颠倒了这一点。

The Git commit is you go into the chat and say, "Please change the color of this button.

Git 提交是你进入聊天室并说：“请更改此按钮的颜色。

And when I click it, save this form to a database." And so you're starting with the intent and the output is the code.

当我单击它时，将此表单保存到数据库中。”所以你从意图开始，输出就是代码。

Guillermo Rauch: And as a side effect, we can also produce a Git commit for you.

Guillermo Rauch：作为副作用，我们还可以为您生成 Git 提交。

That feature's not online yet, but it's coming in the next couple of days.

该功能尚未上线，但将在未来几天内推出。

Spoiler alert for the group.

该小组的剧透警报。

And so I like this idea of we can create this super set of all software building with this platform.

所以我喜欢这个想法，我们可以使用这个平台创建所有软件构建的超级集合。

And that is true to my initial intention with Vercel.

这也符合我对 Vercel 的初衷。

Our mission is to enable the world to build and ship the best products.

我们的使命是让世界能够制造和运输最好的产品。

And so enabling that for the largest possible group of people is very exciting to me.

因此，为尽可能多的人提供这一服务对我来说非常令人兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: So let's go to this question of just the elephant in the room for a lot of people seeing these things happening, product builders that have been doing things a certain way for a long time with apps like this coming around, whether you could just type a thing in, and build it for you, and it's beautiful.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以让我们来讨论这个房间里的大象的问题，因为很多人都看到了这些事情的发生，产品构建者长期以来一直在以某种方式做事情，就像这样的应用程序的出现，你是否可以只输入一个东西，然后为你构建它，它很漂亮。

How do you think things are going to change for product managers, for product teams?

您认为对于产品经理和产品团队来说，事情将会发生怎样的变化？

Where do you think the biggest change is going to happen?

您认为最大的变化会发生在哪里？

How do you think product will be built in the next few years?

您认为未来几年产品将如何打造？

Guillermo Rauch: The most profound one that I alluded to is that conversations between product builders and their customers will be mediated by these zero links, these artifacts.

Guillermo Rauch：我提到的最深刻的一点是，产品构建者与其客户之间的对话将通过这些零链接、这些工件来调解。

I think when Claude came up with the name artifacts, I found it phenomenal, because we're all in this world, especially in this group of people, we're here to build awesome things and share them with the world.

我认为当克劳德提出工件这个名字时，我发现它是惊人的，因为我们都在这个世界上，尤其是在这群人中，我们来这里是为了建造很棒的东西并与世界分享它们。

Steve Jobs said this awesome speech about, "It's like our form of giving back to the world is to try and do the best possible job we can and share it with the world." And so the idea that when we talk, we would not have the power to make those ideas a reality, it seems like an L to me.

史蒂夫·乔布斯在这篇精彩的演讲中说道：“我们回馈世界的方式就是尽力尽我们所能，并与世界分享。”因此，当我们谈论时，我们没有能力将这些想法变成现实，这对我来说似乎是一个“L”。

I would love to see people constantly live in the product, be in the design, spend time tuning and trying out new ideas.

我希望看到人们不断地生活在产品中，参与设计，花时间调整和尝试新想法。

And that's what the ideal work of the future should look like, and less about again, that abstraction, that being removed from the product or even sometimes I can feel powerless to not be able to change something.

这就是未来理想的工作应该是什么样子，而不是再强调那种抽象，那种从产品中删除的东西，甚至有时我会感到无力，无法改变某些东西。

Guillermo Rauch: This happens a lot when departments collaborate within an organization.

Guillermo Rauch：当组织内的部门协作时，这种情况经常发生。

Marketing wants design to do something, marketing wants engineering, engineering needs a design.

营销希望设计有所作为，营销希望工程，工程需要设计。

It cuts always.

它总是会削减。

One of the things that people got excited about that we published on the Vercel blog was about design engineering, because a lot of the people that we were noticing were being very successful at Vercel were people that had both the design and engineering skills.

我们在 Vercel 博客上发布的关于设计工程的内容让人们感到兴奋，因为我们注意到许多在 Vercel 非常成功的人都拥有设计和工程技能。

And that was actually another huge motivator and inspiration for v0, because we realized that people could be more full stack.

这实际上是 v0 的另一个巨大动力和灵感，因为我们意识到人们可以更加全栈。

We shouldn't put limits on ourselves, and what we can build, and what we can ship, and what we can dream about making possible on these web surfaces.

我们不应该限制自己，限制我们可以构建什么，我们可以运送什么，以及我们可以梦想在这些网络表面上实现什么。

Guillermo Rauch: And so you could imagine removing all those limitations, a designer that can ship a fully-baked product, a product manager that can prototype and shift to production.

Guillermo Rauch：所以你可以想象消除所有这些限制，一个可以交付完全烘焙产品的设计师，一个可以制作原型并转向生产的产品经理。

A lot of people that use v0 are back-end engineers that never had the ability to, they could ship an API, they could build a great low-level infrastructure system, but to actually bring their end-to-end vision to life, v0's completing that for them.

许多使用 v0 的人都是后端工程师，他们从来没有能力，他们可以发布 API，他们可以构建一个出色的低级基础设施系统，但为了真正将他们的端到端愿景变为现实，v0 正在为他们完成这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me follow the thread on engineers.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我关注一下工程师的话题。

A lot of people are wondering, "Do we need engineers in the future?

很多人想知道，“未来我们还需要工程师吗？

What happens to engineers?

工程师会怎样？

Should I learn how to code?" Your long-time engineer thoughts for folks that are trying to decide the career for themselves?

我应该学习如何编码吗？”对于那些试图自己决定职业的人，您的长期工程师有何想法？

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, I think knowing how things work is the most important skill in the world.

Guillermo Rauch：是的，我认为了解事物如何运作是世界上最重要的技能。

I foresee a lot of people becoming incredibly impactful in building and shipping amazing products, and building gigantic companies, and everything you could imagine, where a single person can do the job of a hundred different people in a hundred different specializations.

我预见到很多人在构建和运输令人惊叹的产品、建立巨大的公司以及你能想象到的一切方面变得非常有影响力，在这些领域，一个人可以完成一百个不同专业领域一百个不同人的工作。

Take the example of one skill set that's really important to build a front-end product is you need to know how to use CSS or Tailwind to style it.

以构建前端产品非常重要的一项技能为例，您需要知道如何使用 CSS 或 Tailwind 来设计它。

And once upon a time, I would hire people that were truly specialists in this task, the task of there's a Figma design or there is some kind of sketch, and translating that into reality because they knew really well how to manipulate layouts, layout code, box model code, we call it, and borders, paddings, margins, flex box, all these technologies for styling.

曾几何时，我会聘请真正是这项任务专家的人，任务是有 Figma 设计或某种草图，并将其转化为现实，因为他们非常清楚如何操作布局、布局代码、我们称之为盒子模型代码，以及边框、填充、边距、弹性框，以及所有这些用于样式设计的技术。

Guillermo Rauch: And notice, I actually use the word translation very intentionally, because the origin of the LLM or the transform architecture at least, goes as far back as the architecture for systems like Google Translate.

Guillermo Rauch：请注意，我实际上非常有意地使用翻译这个词，因为法学硕士或至少转换架构的起源可以追溯到谷歌翻译等系统的架构。

They were generative LLM techniques, basically.

基本上，它们是生成法学硕士技术。

That's how they cross that chasm of, remember when translating tools were horrible and then one day the problem was just solved?

这就是他们跨越鸿沟的方式，还记得翻译工具很糟糕的时候，然后有一天问题就解决了吗？

And I look at a lot of the programming jobs to be done that used to be specializations, that I think are going away, in a way, or the tasks to be done, they're translation tasks.

我看到了很多需要完成的编程工作，这些工作曾经是专业化的，我认为在某种程度上，这些工作正在消失，或者需要完成的任务，它们是翻译任务。

We were translating from a screenshot, or intent, or a design into a React, and Tailwind, and CSS implementation.

我们正在将屏幕截图、意图或设计转换为 React、Tailwind 和 CSS 实现。

Guillermo Rauch: And right now, v0 is incredibly good at doing that.

Guillermo Rauch：现在，v0 非常擅长做到这一点。

It's so good that every time we put a new generation of the model out, I run this test of converting my own website and try to generate it with v0.

太好了，每次我们推出新一代模型时，我都会运行转换我自己的网站的测试，并尝试使用 v0 生成它。

Last time I did it, it had taken me like 10 prompts to replicate it.

上次我这样做时，我花了大约 10 个提示才能复制它。

Keep in mind I'm an expert front-end engineer that's been in the arena since I'm like 10 years old and I'm 35 now.

请记住，我是一名专业的前端工程师，从 10 岁起就进入了这个领域，现在我已经 35 岁了。

And so I do that test because it's almost like a test of self-imposed humility of, like, "I remember exactly how long it took me to build my website with Next.js, the framework that I created, and ship it." And so with the last model, it took me maybe 10, 15 prompts?

所以我做了这个测试，因为这几乎就像是对自我谦虚的测试，比如，“我清楚地记得我用 Next.js（我创建的框架）构建我的网站并发布它花了多长时间。”那么对于最后一个模型，我可能需要 10、15 次提示？

With the most recent model, it took me two prompts.

对于最新的模型，我花了两次提示。

Guillermo Rauch: And so that translation from the design intent into working implementation, another anecdote that I like to share with people is the model, because v0 tries to embed all of the best practices of the web, the model output more accessible code than what I wrote.

Guillermo Rauch：为了将设计意图转化为工作实现，我喜欢与人们分享的另一个轶事是模型，因为 v0 试图嵌入网络的所有最佳实践，该模型输出比我编写的更易于访问的代码。

It follows the accessibility guidelines that the web standards consortiums put out better than I did, because it just knows everything.

它遵循网络标准联盟制定的比我更好的可访问性指南，因为它知道一切。

And so those tasks where you can almost model it to a translation task, definitely going away.

因此，那些几乎可以将其建模为翻译任务的任务肯定会消失。

But knowing how things work under the hood, notice all the ...

但了解事物的幕后运作方式，请注意所有...

I'm using specific tokens in this conversation.

我在这次对话中使用了特定的标记。

I'm saying, "CSS," I'm saying, "Layout." I'm naming styles.

我说的是“CSS”，我说的是“布局”。我正在命名样式。

Knowing those tokens is going to be very important for you because you're going to be able to influence the model and make it follow your intention a lot better.

了解这些标记对您来说非常重要，因为您将能够影响模型并使其更好地遵循您的意图。

Guillermo Rauch: And so the TLDR would be knowing how things work, the symbolic systems, and that will mean that you have to probably go into each subject with less depth.

Guillermo Rauch：所以 TLDR 将了解事物如何运作、符号系统，这意味着您可能必须以较少的深度进入每个主题。

I have engineers at Vercel that know every single CSS property by heart.

我在 Vercel 的工程师对每一个 CSS 属性都了如指掌。

They know when they became available in a certain web browser, they've been tracking this specification.

他们知道当它们在某个网络浏览器中可用时，他们就一直在跟踪这个规范。

It's almost like you're an encyclopedia of knowledge of each CSS property.

这几乎就像你是每个 CSS 属性知识的百科全书。

You probably won't need that in the future, and probably that's good, because you'll free up your mind for more ambitious things.

将来你可能不需要它，这可能是件好事，因为你可以腾出时间去做更雄心勃勃的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: No, that's fascinating.

Lenny Rachitsky：不，这很有趣。

So what I'm hearing is a skill that will continue to be valuable in the future, but I want to push on this a little bit, no matter how far AI gets, is understanding conceptually how software works, end-to-end-

所以我听到的是一项在未来仍然有价值的技能，但我想稍微推动一下，无论人工智能发展到什么程度，从概念上理解软件是如何工作的，端到端的——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

systems, databases, CSS is a thing.

系统、数据库、CSS 都是一回事。

So I don't know if you have kids, whether you have kids or not, just say they were trying to decide, "What should I learn to be, to thrive in this future?" Well, how would you summarize it?

所以我不知道你是否有孩子，无论你是否有孩子，只是说他们试图决定，“我应该学会做什么，才能在未来茁壮成长？”嗯，你会如何总结呢？

How far?

多远?

Should they get into software engineering?

他们应该进入软件工程吗？

Guillermo Rauch: Great question, because I have five kids, and I've already enrolled them in this school of G, myself, in the sense that I'm already guiding them towards the things I think are going to be very useful to them.

Guillermo Rauch：问得好，因为我有五个孩子，我自己已经让他们进入了这所 G 学校，从某种意义上说，我已经在引导他们做我认为对他们非常有用的事情。

So understanding how things work needs, I think the ability to understand the fundamental logic behind things, incredibly valuable.

因此，理解事物如何运作需要，我认为理解事物背后的基本逻辑的能力非常有价值。

So I push them really hard on math.

所以我非常努力地督促他们学习数学。

"If you don't know math really well, you're out of my house." Just kidding.

“如果你不太懂数学，你就被赶出我家。”只是在开玩笑。

But it's a fundamental skill that I want them to know.

但这是我希望他们知道的一项基本技能。

Eloquence.

口才。

I joke sometimes.

我有时会开玩笑。

Have you heard a meme of word cells versus-

你听说过单词细胞与-的模因吗？

Guillermo Rauch: So a shape rotator is someone that only has a math brain.

Guillermo Rauch：所以形状旋转者是只有数学大脑的人。

You could argue the kings and queens of Silicon Valley have been the shape rotators, because those have been the jobs that have historically commanded the most status, respect, net worth, whatever.

你可以说硅谷的国王和皇后都是形状旋转者，因为这些工作历来享有最高的地位、尊重、净资产等等。

And then there's the word cells, which is communicating, more of the liberal arts.

然后还有“细胞”这个词，它是交流的，更多是文科的。

There's also the funny and awesome slide of Apple saying that they're at the intersection of liberal arts and technology.

还有一张有趣而精彩的苹果幻灯片，称他们正处于文科和技术的交叉点。

I've always had immense amounts of respect for both sides of the brain, so to speak.

可以这么说，我一直非常尊重大脑的两侧。

But I think developing great eloquence, and knowing and memorizing those tokens that I talked about, knowing how to refer to things in that global mental map of symbolic systems will be highly valuable.

但我认为培养出色的口才，了解并记住我谈到的那些符号，知道如何在符号系统的全球心理地图中指代事物将非常有价值。

And we have some tools to help people prompt better, but prompt enhancement and embellishment cannot replace thinking and cannot replace your own creativity that you want to infuse into the world.

我们有一些工具可以帮助人们更好地提示，但是提示的增强和点缀不能取代思考，也不能取代你自己想要注入世界的创造力。

Guillermo Rauch: So one of the things that v0 does is it tries and it succeeds, I think, at creating very nice designs out of the box.

Guillermo Rauch：所以 v0 所做的事情之一就是它尝试并成功地创建了开箱即用的非常好的设计。

We try to infuse what we've learned about what do people think is typically good web design?

我们尝试将我们所学到的知识融入人们认为典型的优秀网页设计中。

We've influenced the model in that direction.

我们已经朝这个方向影响了模型。

But still we also don't want the whole internet to look the same way.

但我们仍然不希望整个互联网看起来都一样。

So your ability to steer the model with your words into those references, into those inspirations, is going to be very important.

因此，你用言语引导模型进入那些参考文献、那些灵感的能力将非常重要。

Guillermo Rauch: I actually have an amazing anecdote.

吉列尔莫·劳赫：实际上我有一件令人惊奇的轶事。

We hosted a design demo night at the Vercel HQ in San Francisco last night.

昨晚我们在旧金山 Vercel 总部举办了一场设计演示之夜。

And we were showing off how Vercel uses v0 to build v0 and to build Vercel.

我们展示了 Vercel 如何使用 v0 构建 v0 并构建 Vercel。

And one of our designers showed this amazing animation that he built, actually two amazing animations that he built.

我们的一位设计师展示了他制作的这个令人惊叹的动画，实际上是他制作的两个令人惊叹的动画。

And in one of them it was this amazing triangle that had an animation that I didn't think was possible to make, in that it was all built with v0.

其中一个是这个令人惊叹的三角形，它有一个我认为不可能制作的动画，因为它都是用 v0 构建的。

And he used the word turbulence to describe the effect that he wanted.

他用湍流这个词来描述他想要的效果。

Guillermo Rauch: So I just want to call out that to people because the difference between knowing that word and not knowing it is getting that style into that beautiful triangle that he created that was interactive, and it's probably going to end up in some landing page soon that you're going to visit on vercel.com.

Guillermo Rauch：所以我只是想向人们指出这一点，因为知道这个词和不知道它之间的区别在于将这种风格融入到他创建的交互式美丽三角形中，并且它可能很快就会出现在您将在 vercel.com 上访问的某个登陆页面中。

And so developing eloquence and your linguistic ability I think is going to be very important.

因此，我认为发展口才和语言能力非常重要。

So I love my kids to know that.

所以我爱我的孩子们知道这一点。

And I think that idea of sharing things, and putting yourself out there, and broadcasting to the world, so another thing that I do is I take my kids to hackathons, which just went to an awesome hackathon at University of San Francisco, USF.

我认为分享东西，把自己放在那里，并向世界传播的想法，所以我做的另一件事是带我的孩子参加黑客马拉松，刚刚参加了南佛罗里达大学旧金山大学的一场很棒的黑客马拉松。

It was called the BLOOM Hackathon.

它被称为 BLOOM 黑客马拉松。

And I took two of my kids and I wanted them to watch how people presented their ideas and we had a lot of fun.

我带着我的两个孩子，我想让他们看看人们如何表达他们的想法，我们玩得很开心。

We also ate waffles and grilled sandwiches, which is a bonus.

我们还吃了华夫饼和烤三明治，这是一个额外的好处。

Guillermo Rauch: So presenting and putting yourself out there.

Guillermo Rauch：所以展示并展示自己。

I mentioned in the beginning of the podcast when we were chatting, I've learned so much from you and your guests because you put out all these awesome little posts on X in these videos and these snippets of your interviews.

我在播客的开头提到，当我们聊天时，我从你和你的客人那里学到了很多东西，因为你在这些视频和这些采访片段中发布了所有这些关于 X 的精彩小帖子。

And so the ability to present what you've built and put yourself out there, incredibly important skill in the future.

因此，展示你所构建的东西并展示自己的能力，是未来极其重要的技能。

Especially in a world where the marginal cost of producing software and new things are going down, you need to build an audience, you need to know how to talk to people, you need to build your own signature brand and style.

尤其是在一个生产软件和新事物的边际成本不断下降的世界里，你需要建立一个受众，你需要知道如何与人交谈，你需要建立自己的标志性品牌和风格。

And so maybe they're a little too young for that one, but I guess taking them into hackathons probably back, is influencing their neural networks or pre-training data for the future.

所以也许他们对于这个人来说有点太年轻了，但我想带他们参加黑客马拉松可能会影响他们未来的神经网络或预训练数据。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。

They're going to tell their friends, "My dad took me to a hackathon." "What's that?" So are you encouraging to learn to code?

他们会告诉他们的朋友，“我爸爸带我去参加了一场黑客马拉松。” “那是什么？”那么您鼓励学习编码吗？

Because it's interesting you mentioned-

因为你提到的很有趣-

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

math, eloquence, presenting, and then, okay, so also learn to code.

数学、口才、演讲，然后，好吧，还要学习编码。

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, I think again, learning how to prompt, learning how to code.

Guillermo Rauch：是的，我又想了一遍，学习如何提示，学习如何编码。

With v0, we show you the code when we build things.

通过 v0，我们在构建东西时向您展示代码。

So if you can build that mapping of maybe not learning how to code necessarily as an abstraction, if you do have a knack for it, I'm a big believer also that my five kids have super diverse personalities and inclinations, and I don't want to be pushing for something that they wouldn't want to do or whatever.

因此，如果你能够构建这样的映射，即不一定要学习如何编码作为抽象，如果你确实有诀窍，那么我也坚信我的五个孩子具有超级多样化的个性和倾向，而且我不想推动他们不想做的事情或其他事情。

And so learning to code in the abstract might be good for some people, but it may not be the fun thing to do for other people.

因此，学习抽象编码可能对某些人有好处，但对其他人来说可能不是一件有趣的事情。

And so what I would recommend is try to understand how things work.

所以我建议尝试去理解事情是如何运作的。

So if you prompt v0 or any other tool and it generates some code, try to build an understanding of what that does at a high level.

因此，如果您提示 v0 或任何其他工具并且它生成了一些代码，请尝试在高层次上了解它的作用。

It's like actually maybe an extension even of eloquence.

实际上，这甚至可能是口才的延伸。

Guillermo Rauch: One of the bets that I made early on with Vercel that really paid off is Vercel, maybe as a metaphor is like AWS in easy mode for a lot of people.

Guillermo Rauch：我早期与 Vercel 进行的真正获得回报的赌注之一是 Vercel，也许作为一个隐喻，对于很多人来说，就像 AWS 处于简单模式一样。

We have a very large user base of people that would have otherwise not have been able to configure all of the ins and outs of the cloud, but do want the scale, flexibility, speed, et cetera.

我们拥有非常庞大的用户群，否则他们将无法配置云的所有细节，但确实需要规模、灵活性、速度等。

They want to create very high quality products and services.

他们希望创造非常高质量的产品和服务。

So I like to give the Super Bowl example because one of our customers, Ramp, had a 43X increase in traffic when their ad went live.

所以我想举超级碗的例子，因为我们的客户之一 Ramp 在广告上线后流量增加了 43 倍。

The engineer that worked on that only needed to learn Next.js.

从事这项工作的工程师只需要学习 Next.js 即可。

Then they pushed their code to Vercel and now they can reach an audience of a hundred million people without a blip, a hundred percent uptime.

然后他们将代码推送到 Vercel，现在他们可以毫无瑕疵地覆盖一亿观众，并且正常运行时间达到 100%。

Guillermo Rauch: That superpower comes from, we made it as easy as possible to get started, and the language that we choose is actually very relevant in this story.

Guillermo Rauch：这种超能力来自于，我们让它尽可能容易上手，而且我们选择的语言实际上与这个故事非常相关。

JavaScript, in my mind, has always been almost like the English of programming languages.

在我看来，JavaScript 几乎就像编程语言中的英语。

It's a language that, if you learn it, you reach billions of devices.

如果你学会了这种语言，你就可以接触到数十亿台设备。

So it's not a coincidence that when you ask ChatGPT, or Anthropic, or Gemini to build you web app, it uses these tools.

因此，当您要求 ChatGPT、Anthropic 或 Gemini 构建您的 Web 应用程序时，它会使用这些工具，这并非巧合。

It uses JavaScript, it uses React.

它使用 JavaScript，它使用 React。

It's become the lingua franca of building products on the web.

它已成为在网络上构建产品的通用语言。

So I would say to my kids, "Look, if you do want to go deeper into programming, start learning there." You can reach huge numbers of people.

所以我会对我的孩子们说：“听着，如果你确实想更深入地学习编程，就从那里开始学习吧。”您可以接触到大量的人。

If you have a passion, I would say there's going to be a fundamental engineering skill that's going to be useful for decades or centuries to come, which is creating foundational infrastructure.

如果你有热情，我想说将会有一种基本的工程技能，它将在未来几十年或几个世纪内发挥作用，即创建基础设施。

Guillermo Rauch: Think about LLMs in terms of, they're like Oracles that can go and write software for you, but there's a limit to how much software they can write.

Guillermo Rauch：想想法学硕士，他们就像可以为你编写软件的Oracle，但他们可以编写的软件数量是有限的。

There's context windows, there is time and computational constraints.

有上下文窗口，有时间和计算限制。

So it's very hard for an agent today to go and say, "I'm going to write a cloud from scratch.

因此，今天的代理很难说：“我要从头开始编写云。

I'm going to write all the foundational services.

我将编写所有基础服务。

I'm going to write the framework from scratch.

我将从头开始编写框架。

I'm going to write the compiler." No, the LM is orchestrating those tools and infrastructure.

我要编写编译器。”不，LM 正在协调这些工具和基础设施。

It's not writing the compiler from scratch.

它不是从头开始编写编译器。

Otherwise, you get into the Newton thing, in order to create an Apple, you have to create the entire underlying universe.

否则，你就会陷入牛顿的困境，为了创造一个苹果，你必须创造整个底层宇宙。

No, the elements are interoperating with the universe as it exists.

不，这些元素正在与存在的宇宙相互作用。

And so the engineers that learn foundational infrastructure are probably going to be extremely empowered still, for years to come.

因此，在未来的几年里，学习基础设施的工程师可能仍然会获得极大的授权。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a world where you could argue ChatGPT will build the next version of ChatGPT.

Lenny Rachitsky：在这个世界上，你可以说 ChatGPT 将构建 ChatGPT 的下一个版本。

What I'm hearing from you is that's a long ways away, if ever.

我从你那里听到的是，如果有的话，那是很遥远的事情。

Guillermo Rauch: Absolutely.

吉列尔莫·劳赫：当然。

This is why the common, the running joke is that all of these companies have, you go to their careers page.

这就是为什么常见的、流行的笑话是，所有这些公司都有，你去他们的职业页面。

It's like-

这就像——

Guillermo Rauch: ...

吉列尔莫·劳赫：...

"Engineer, engineer, engineer." The counterpoint of that is that at Vercel had, we have 150 engineers that can write code and 600 total headcount.

“工程师，工程师，工程师。”与此相反的是，在 Vercel，我们有 150 名可以编写代码的工程师，总人数为 600 人。

Now we have 600 engineers.

现在我们有600名工程师。

Some of the best things that I've seen created with v0 have not come from our engineering team.

我所见过的用 v0 创建的一些最好的东西并不是来自我们的工程团队。

They've come from the marketing team, they've come from the sales team, they've come from the product management team.

他们来自营销团队、销售团队、产品管理团队。

The product management team is fascinating, because now they're actually building the product.

产品管理团队很有趣，因为现在他们正在实际构建产品。

So last night I saw how we've specced out in v0, think of it as like a live PRD, we've specced out how the new functionality for deploying a v0 to Vercel is going to work.

所以昨晚我看到了我们如何在 v0 中进行规范，将其视为实时 PRD，我们规范了将 v0 部署到 Vercel 的新功能将如何工作。

Guillermo Rauch: The amount of detail that was contained in that v0, I mean, we're all just saying, "Well, just ship it.

Guillermo Rauch：我的意思是，v0 中包含的详细信息量，我们都只是说，“好吧，就发布它吧。

There's nothing else to discuss." It was animated, it was interactive.

没什么可讨论的了。”它是动画的，是互动的。

We were demonstrating the error state, the success state, the slow stream state.

我们演示了错误状态、成功状态、慢流状态。

So it really empowers product builders not only with technical skills, I think that does a disservice to the tool.

因此，它确实不仅赋予产品构建者技术技能，而且我认为这对工具有害。

It empowers them to explore and augment their thinking with a lot of things that perhaps they wouldn't have considered otherwise, a lot of states of the product they wouldn't have considered otherwise.

它使他们能够探索和增强他们的思维，了解许多他们可能不会考虑的事情，否则他们不会考虑产品的许多状态。

Lenny Rachitsky: The name v0 implies the product is for prototypes for the first attempt at stuff.

Lenny Rachitsky：v0 这个名字意味着该产品是用于第一次尝试的原型。

And that's definitely where all these tools are finding product market fit prototypes, PMs showing a thing working versus just design.

这绝对是所有这些工具寻找适合产品市场的原型的地方，产品经理展示了一个可行的东西而不是仅仅设计的东西。

Do you expect v0 and other tools to get to a place where you can build salesforce.com and scale it to billions of dollars?

您是否期望 v0 和其他工具能够构建 salesforce.com 并将其规模扩大到数十亿美元？

Do you-

你有吗——

Guillermo Rauch: We already have an enterprise customer of v0 that only works with v0.

Guillermo Rauch：我们已经有一个 v0 的企业客户，只能使用 v0。

All of their products, all of their features, all of their client communications are v0 native.

他们所有的产品、所有功能、所有客户端通信都是 v0 原生的。

Two days ago, I just heard anecdotally on X, someone tells me, "My brother just sold his first website to a client completely built in v0." Yesterday at an investor conference, an investor walks up to me and says, "Two of my friends just got engaged on v0." I was like, "Okay, v0 is a dating app now." So the engagement website, the proposal, the wedding, it's all v0 native.

两天前，我刚刚在 X 上听到一则轶事，有人告诉我，“我兄弟刚刚把他的第一个网站卖给了一个完全使用 v0 构建的客户。”昨天在一次投资者会议上，一位投资者走到我面前说：“我的两个朋友刚刚在 v0 上订婚了。”我当时想，“好吧，v0 现在是一款约会应用程序了。”所以订婚网站、求婚、婚礼，都是 v0 原生的。

Guillermo Rauch: So because we've integrated v0, the Vercel infrastructure, we can do that whole story that I just told you of like, "I have a website to build and I can get it in front of a hundred million people." We can enable that for everybody now.

Guillermo Rauch：因为我们已经集成了 v0（Vercel 基础设施），所以我们可以完成我刚才告诉您的整个故事，“我有一个网站要构建，我可以将它展示给一亿人。”我们现在可以为每个人实现这一点。

And so the end-to-end full stack, v0 native, and built on this awesome fluid serverless infrastructure that scales to billions of people, all just from prompts, or screenshots, or just copying and pasting your PRDs into the tool.

因此，端到端全栈、v0 原生，构建在这个令人惊叹的流畅无服务器基础设施之上，可扩展到数十亿人，所有这些都只需通过提示或屏幕截图，或者只需将 PRD 复制并粘贴到工具中即可。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's help people be successful with v0.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们帮助人们通过 v0 取得成功。

And then let's also do a demo.

然后我们也做一个演示。

But before we get there, let me ask you this.

但在我们到达那里之前，让我问你这个问题。

Imagine you could magically sit next to someone who's about to use v0 for the first time and whisper a tip in their ear to be successful with v0.

想象一下，您可以神奇地坐在即将第一次使用 v0 的人旁边，并在他们耳边低声提示如何成功使用 v0。

What would a couple tips be?

一些建议是什么？

Guillermo Rauch: Number one is you can be as ambitious as you want in terms of what you ask the tool.

Guillermo Rauch：第一，对于工具的要求，您可以随心所欲地实现目标。

If you can steer the tool towards some kind of inspiration that you have, you're always going to get better results.

如果您可以引导该工具朝着您拥有的某种灵感方向发展，那么您总是会获得更好的结果。

If you don't have ideas on what to build or what to prompt, I would recommend using the v0 community so that you can find something to fork to get started.

如果您不知道要构建什么或要提示什么，我建议您使用 v0 社区，以便您可以找到可以分叉的内容来开始。

I would say in some ways, if you have technical skills, this one is interesting, have some suspension of disbelief.

我想说，在某些方面，如果你有技术技能，这很有趣，请暂时搁置怀疑。

It humbled me, I was saying about accessibility.

我说的是可访问性，这让我感到谦卑。

So be open-minded about whether the tool actually knows some things that you might not know, and so focus more on the product description, focus more on what do you want the end user to experience?

因此，要对这个工具是否真的知道一些你可能不知道的事情保持开放的态度，因此更多地关注产品描述，更多地关注你希望最终用户体验什么？

What do you want the product to do?

你想要产品做什么？

And try to be open-minded about how well the tool can implement it.

并尝试对该工具的实现效果持开放态度。

Those would be my main wants.

这些将是我的主要愿望。

Guillermo Rauch: You also have to have a sense of iteration, I guess.

Guillermo Rauch：我想你还必须有迭代意识。

Think of it this way, if you were working with a design firm or an agency that you've hired, you will go back and forth and say, "Try something else." If you were coaching an engineer that's getting stuck in something, you would say, "Try something else." It's amazing how many times I've gotten unstuck in v0 by just saying, "Just try something else."

可以这样想，如果您正在与您雇用的设计公司或代理机构合作，您会来回说：“尝试其他东西。”如果你正在指导一位陷入困境的工程师，你会说，“尝试别的事情。”令人惊奇的是，有多少次我只是说“试试别的东西”，就陷入了 v0 的困境。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just saying that as the prompt, not even giving direct-

Lenny Rachitsky：只是说作为提示，甚至没有直接给出-

Guillermo Rauch: Just saying that.

吉列尔莫·劳奇：只是这么说。

I mean, the chat is like-

我的意思是，聊天就像——

Guillermo Rauch: "v0, we need to have ...

Guillermo Rauch：“v0，我们需要......

" It's like, "Yeah." Like you have a one-on-one performance review with a tool.

” 就像是，“是的。”就像您使用工具进行一对一的绩效评估一样。

"Hey, way to talk, try something else.

“嘿，这么说吧，尝试点别的吧。

What you're doing so far is not working.

到目前为止你所做的并没有奏效。

And it's amazing." One fitness function that I'm keeping in my head is I really want to find the thing that it cannot build with v0.

这太棒了。”我一直牢记在心的一个健身功能是，我真的很想找到 v0 无法构建的东西。

So as part of the v0 community, I have my own profile.

因此，作为 v0 社区的一部分，我有自己的个人资料。

We'll share the link with people.

我们将与人们分享链接。

You can see six or seven things that I've built that I consider to be pretty impressive.

你可以看到我构建的六七件我认为非常令人印象深刻的东西。

So for example, I was flying from Tokyo to San Francisco.

举例来说，我从东京飞往旧金山。

The internet was horrible.

互联网很糟糕。

What I like to do during flights is I like to monitor our own flight while I'm on the flight.

我在飞行期间喜欢做的就是在飞行期间监控我们自己的航班。

So I open Flightradar or whatever, and I was extremely bored as well.

于是我打开了Flightradar之类的东西，我也感到非常无聊。

Guillermo Rauch: And I noticed that Flightradar, I don't know which one it was, Flightradar, there's like four or five of them.

Guillermo Rauch：我注意到 Flightradar，我不知道它是哪一个，Flightradar，大约有四五个。

They were very bloated.

他们非常臃肿。

They had ads.

他们有广告。

They were not what I wanted the flight radar to look like.

它们不是我想要的飞行雷达的样子。

So I built my own during the flight with the worst internet connection that you could imagine in the world, integrated into a flight data API called Edge Aviation.

因此，我在飞行期间使用世界上最差的互联网连接构建了自己的应用程序，并将其集成到名为 Edge Aviation 的飞行数据 API 中。

So this is what I told v0, "You're going to build the best flight radar on the planet." I wasn't prescriptive at how, so it used a tool called Mapbox and a JavaScript library called Leaflet.

这就是我对 v0 说的：“你们将建造地球上最好的飞行雷达。”我没有说明具体方法，因此它使用了一个名为 Mapbox 的工具和一个名为 Leaflet 的 JavaScript 库。

I didn't tell him that, or her, I don't know, v0, what it is.

我没有告诉他，也没有告诉她，我不知道，v0，那是什么。

And subsequently, once we cooked on the design, which looks, I would say beautiful, I then got more ambitious and I said, "All right, let's make it real now."

随后，一旦我们对设计进行了完善，它看起来，我会说很漂亮，然后我变得更加雄心勃勃，我说，“好吧，让我们现在把它变成现实。”

Guillermo Rauch: And by the way, that's actually how I would work.

Guillermo Rauch：顺便说一句，这实际上就是我的工作方式。

So it's how I like to work.

这就是我喜欢的工作方式。

I like to work experience first, and that's also how Vercel was built.

我喜欢把工作经验放在第一位，这也是 Vercel 的诞生方式。

"Let's start with the front end.

“让我们从前端开始。

Let's start with the planes on the screen." And by the way, there's a lot of subtleties, here.

让我们从屏幕上的飞机开始吧。”顺便说一句，这里有很多微妙之处。

For example, there's so many flights going on at any given time that there's just too many.

例如，在任何特定时间都有如此多的航班，以至于数量太多了。

So I had to work with v0 on improving performance.

所以我必须与 v0 合作来提高性能。

And once again, I wasn't prescriptive.

再一次，我没有按规定行事。

I just said, "We have a lot of flights, chief.

我只是说：“我们有很多航班，长官。

Let's- "

让我们——”

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, I do say that a lot.

Guillermo Rauch：是的，我确实说过很多次。

And this is, I think when I shared it on X, it blew a lot of engineers' minds, because it created a canvas-based, canvas is the sort of underlying rendering surface that very sophisticated products use like Figma.

我认为当我在 X 上分享它时，它让很多工程师大吃一惊，因为它创建了一个基于画布的画布，画布是像 Figma 这样非常复杂的产品使用的底层渲染表面。

And it created this awesome overlay on top of the map that can render tens of thousands of flights at any given time.

它在地图顶部创建了这个很棒的叠加层，可以在任何给定时间呈现数以万计的航班。

And then I told it, "Let's make it a full stack application.

然后我告诉它，“让我们把它变成一个完整的堆栈应用程序。

Okay, plug into the flights' API." So that's an example of we cooked and there was no limit.

好的，插入航班的 API。”这是我们做饭的一个例子，没有限制。

And so I'm always in the lookout.

所以我总是保持警惕。

The service that I'm providing to the v0 community is I'm part of the team that is really trying to break this and say, "Can it not build something?" And even when it does build it, we're very obsessed with quality and performance.

我为 v0 社区提供的服务是，我是真正试图打破这一现状的团队的一员，并说：“它不能构建一些东西吗？”即使它确实建成了，我们也非常注重质量和性能。

It has to be real.

它必须是真实的。

That's our commitment to our users.

这是我们对用户的承诺。

Lenny Rachitsky: And how much did this cost, how much time does this take to make something like this?

Lenny Rachitsky：制作这样的东西花了多少钱，需要多少时间？

Guillermo Rauch: So the flight radar example or v0?

Guillermo Rauch：飞行雷达的例子还是 v0？

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, the flight radar example specifically just like very-

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，飞行雷达的例子就像非常-

Guillermo Rauch: I mean, that one probably took less than two hours-

Guillermo Rauch：我的意思是，这可能花了不到两个小时-

Guillermo Rauch: Sorry, Japan Airlines, I love you, but you give me a hard time.

吉列尔莫·劳赫：抱歉，日本航空公司，我爱你，但你让我很难过。

Lenny Rachitsky: And what did that cost?

Lenny Rachitsky：那花了多少钱？

Like 10 bucks?

比如10块钱？

What would you estimate?

你会估计什么？

Guillermo Rauch: I mean, I pay for the $20 v0 subscription.

Guillermo Rauch：我的意思是，我支付 20 美元的 v0 订阅费用。

Lenny Rachitsky: 20 bucks, okay, for a month.

Lenny Rachitsky：20 美元，好吧，一个月。

So it's like a month, but you used it for two hours, 20 bucks.

就像一个月，但你使用了两个小时，20 美元。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you had engineers building this, how much do you think that would cost?

Lenny Rachitsky：如果让工程师建造这个，你认为这会花费多少钱？

How long do you think that would take?

您认为这需要多长时间？

Guillermo Rauch: I mean, weeks, easily.

Guillermo Rauch：我的意思是，几周，很容易。

Easily.

容易地。

Lenny Rachitsky: And that's like tens of thousands of dollars.

Lenny Rachitsky：这相当于数万美元。

Guillermo Rauch: Maybe the most cracked engineer at Vercel could knock it out in ...

Guillermo Rauch：也许 Vercel 最出色的工程师可以在......

without using any AI, could knock it out in a couple days.

不使用任何人工智能，几天之内就可以解决它。

But then what about the design?

但是设计呢？

What about me?

关于我的什么？

Because I'm the bottleneck, not the engineer.

因为我是瓶颈，而不是工程师。

And this is what's amazing about this collaboration because I'm providing the product guidance.

这就是这次合作的奇妙之处，因为我提供产品指导。

I'm saying, "Draw a dashed line between the ...

我是说，“在...之间画一条虚线。

" And by the way, v0 just blew my mind so hard.

“顺便说一句，v0 让我大吃一惊。

I said, "Draw a dashed line between the two destination airports." And v0 said, "Well, I have to account for the spherical, or what is it, it's a pseudosphere, for the curvature of the earth." It's like, "Okay, v0, super genius, whatever." And so that's what I mentioned about how you can go back and forth.

我说：“在两个目的地机场之间画一条虚线。” v0 说：“好吧，我必须考虑球面，或者它是什么，它是一个伪球面，用于地球的曲率。”就像，“好吧，v0，超级天才，无论如何。”这就是我提到的关于如何来回的内容。

It's like a product copilot, it's like an all-knowing being.

它就像一个产品副驾驶，就像一个无所不知的存在。

Guillermo Rauch: One of our users yesterday submitted feedback to the tool and it was positive feedback.

Guillermo Rauch：我们的一位用户昨天向该工具提交了反馈，这是积极的反馈。

They were very happy, what they were saying, "v0 is a super genius five-year old PhD with ADHD." So you still have to, I'm not going to oversell this like, "It knows everything about everything.

他们非常高兴，他们说，“v0 是一位患有多动症的超级天才五岁博士。”所以你仍然必须这样做，我不会过度推销这一点，比如“它知道一切。

It gives everything perfect," of course.

它让一切变得完美，”当然。

But it has these sparks of brilliance.

但它有这些辉煌的火花。

Really, truly, I think, I've been a big believer that AGI undersells what we are collectively building because we already have, all of this sparks of super intelligence.

真的，真的，我认为，我一直坚信 AGI 低估了我们正在共同构建的东西，因为我们已经拥有了所有这些超级智能的火花。

I don't believe that v0 is an AGI if it knows everything about how to draw a dashed line according to the curvature of the earth and this high-performance map of airplanes.

我不相信 v0 是一个 AGI，如果它知道如何根据地球曲率和这张高性能飞机地图绘制虚线的一切。

That's just superhuman.

这简直就是超人啊。

And yeah, it's a joy to use.

是的，使用起来很愉快。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by LinkedIn ads.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目是通过 LinkedIn 广告为您带来的。

One of the hardest and also most important parts of B2B marketing is reaching the right people.

B2B 营销中最困难也是最重要的部分之一就是接触到合适的人。

I'm constantly getting ads for products that I will never buy.

我不断收到我永远不会购买的产品的广告。

And I almost feel sorry for the money that these companies are spending, pitching me on their spend management software or some kind of cybersecurity solution that my one-man business just does not need.

我几乎为这些公司花的钱感到遗憾，向我推销他们的支出管理软件或某种网络安全解决方案，而我的单人业务根本不需要这些解决方案。

When you're ready to reach the right professionals use LinkedIn ads.

当您准备好接触合适的专业人士时，请使用 LinkedIn 广告。

LinkedIn has grown to a network of over one billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers.

LinkedIn 已发展成为一个拥有超过 10 亿专业人士的网络，其中包括 1.3 亿决策者。

And that's where it stands apart from other ad platforms.

这就是它与其他广告平台的不同之处。

You can target your ad buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, even company revenue, all the professionals that you need to reach in one place.

您可以根据职位、行业、公司、角色、资历、技能，甚至公司收入，以及您需要在一个地方联系的所有专业人士来定位您的广告买家。

Stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn ads.

停止在错误的受众群体上浪费预算，并开始仅在 LinkedIn 广告上定位合适的专业人士。

LinkedIn will even give you $100 credit on your next campaign so that you can try it for yourself.

LinkedIn 甚至会在您的下一次活动中为您提供 100 美元的积分，以便您可以亲自尝试。

Just go to linkedin.com/podlenny, that's linkedin.com/podlenny.

只需访问 linkedin.com/podlenny，即 linkedin.com/podlenny。

Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads.

条款和条件仅适用于 LinkedIn 广告。

Lenny Rachitsky: As you talk, it's interesting, the way I'm thinking about this now, there's almost like three core skills in building apps with AI.

Lenny Rachitsky：正如你所说，这很有趣，我现在思考这个问题的方式，用人工智能构建应用程序几乎有三项核心技能。

There's figuring out what to build, there's making it look good, like design, and then there's getting it unstuck.

弄清楚要建造什么，让它看起来不错，比如设计，然后把它摆脱困境。

Lenny Rachitsky: And it's interesting how these are going to move.

Lenny Rachitsky：这些将如何移动很有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Coaching it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：指导它。

Yeah.

是的。

Or just like, "Oh, here's the database error.

或者就像，“哦，这是数据库错误。

I don't know.

我不知道。

It's not figuring it out."

这还没弄清楚。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I guess does that resonate?

Lenny Rachitsky：我想这会引起共鸣吗？

I've never thought about before.

我以前从来没有想过。

Guillermo Rauch: Oh, absolutely.

吉列尔莫·劳赫：哦，当然。

In fact, I'll tell you a little bit of a story of something.

事实上，我会告诉你一些故事。

So even going way back in time, Next.js builds on React.

因此，即使追溯到很久以前，Next.js 也是建立在 React 之上的。

React was this UI component library that Facebook created, actually with very similar goals.

React 是 Facebook 创建的 UI 组件库，实际上有着非常相似的目标。

They had so many cracked engineers, and they had to help them collaborate on an enormous product surface.

他们有这么多出色的工程师，他们必须帮助他们在巨大的产品表面上进行协作。

So they invented or at least pioneered, I would say the concept of this component as a unit of reusability, as a building block, as a Lego brick of how you build software.

所以他们发明了或者至少开创了，我想说这个组件的概念作为一个可重用性的单元，作为一个构建块，作为如何构建软件的乐高积木。

It's no coincidence that LLMs love to work with React components, by the way.

顺便说一句，法学硕士喜欢使用 React 组件，这并非巧合。

And one of the things that always has stood out to me about that model is it basically enables people to scale in how they work together.

该模型一直让我印象深刻的事情之一是，它基本上使人们能够扩展他们的合作方式。

And one of the key design principles that they embedded into this thing, is they called it escape hatch.

他们嵌入到这个东西中的关键设计原则之一就是他们将其称为逃生舱口。

Guillermo Rauch: The API, when when React doesn't perfectly model your problem with its component system, they give you escape hatch.

Guillermo Rauch：API，当 React 不能用它的组件系统完美地模拟你的问题时，它们会给你逃生舱口。

They say, "Okay, engineer.

他们说：“好吧，工程师。

You are on your own now.

你现在只能靠自己了。

There's no guardrails." And in fact, one of these escape hatches is called dangerously set inner HTML.

没有护栏。”事实上，这些逃生舱口之一被称为危险设置的内部 HTML。

They want the developer to know uncharted territory.

他们希望开发人员了解未知领域。

But they did give people the API.

但他们确实给了人们 API。

That is a profound systems design engineering principle.

这是一个深刻的系统设计工程原理。

And throughout my life, I've always thought about escape hatches.

在我的一生中，我一直在思考逃生舱口。

Guillermo Rauch: One amazing escape hatch that v0 has is that you're looking at the code that we're generating with Next.js.

Guillermo Rauch：v0 的一个令人惊奇的逃生口是，您正在查看我们使用 Next.js 生成的代码。

You can edit it, you can even have other experts look at it.

您可以编辑它，甚至可以让其他专家查看它。

One thing that one of our demos last night came from this awesome company, Lumalabs.

昨晚我们的演示之一来自这家很棒的公司 Lumalabs。

They're creating one of the most amazing video models in the world, and they use v0 and Vercel extensively to build their application, their websites, et cetera.

他们正在创建世界上最令人惊叹的视频模型之一，并且广泛使用 v0 和 Vercel 来构建他们的应用程序、网站等。

And the design engineer was talking about how he was on a v0 that had 120 or so iterations.

设计工程师正在谈论他如何使用具有 120 次左右迭代的 v0。

So he was knee-deep into the latent space.

所以他进入了及膝深的潜在空间。

He was in the matrix.

他在矩阵中。

And at one point he got stuck.

有一次他陷入了困境。

But you know what he did?

但你知道他做了什么吗？

He copied and pasted the code that we generated and he gave it to ChatGPT o1 and ChatGPT o1 thought about the solution.

他复制并粘贴了我们生成的代码，并将其交给 ChatGPT o1，ChatGPT o1 思考了解决方案。

Guillermo Rauch: Honestly, I'd never even thought about this myself.

Guillermo Rauch：说实话，我自己从来没有想过这个问题。

I was so blown away.

我非常震惊。

And it does speak to, I love that your third point of, "You need to learn a skill of how to get unstuck." It's like a profound life lesson.

它确实说明了，我喜欢你的第三点，“你需要学习如何摆脱困境的技能。”这就像一堂深刻的人生课。

It's just more a generic life advice you need to get.

这只是您需要获得的通用生活建议。

Facebook actually had a principle, "Don't get blocked.

Facebook 实际上有一个原则：“不要被屏蔽。

Seek to get unblocked, seek help from other people." What's fascinating is that you can seek help from other AIs to get unstuck.

寻求解除封锁，寻求其他人的帮助。”令人着迷的是，你可以向其他人工智能寻求帮助来摆脱困境。

And those escape hatches of actually understanding and seeing the code underneath, and even being able to say, "Okay, now let's use Git.

真正理解和看到下面的代码，甚至能够说，“好吧，现在让我们使用 Git。

Let's turn this into more of a hybrid project, not just prompts, but also traditional software engineering." The fact that that door is open to you is extremely valuable.

让我们把它变成一个更多的混合项目，不仅仅是提示，还有传统的软件工程。”事实上，那扇门向你敞开是非常有价值的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's actually make the super concrete and show people what this actually looks like in v0.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们真正制作出超级具体的东西，并向人们展示 v0 中的实际情况。

So pull up, we'll share screen, and then we'll do a little live demo.

因此，请停下来，我们将共享屏幕，然后我们将进行一些现场演示。

We'll keep it brief.

我们会保持简短。

I find people are like, "Okay, I get it." But we'll make it fun and brief at the same time.

我发现人们会说：“好吧，我明白了。”但我们会让它既有趣又简短。

There it is.

就在那里。

I see it.

我看到了。

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, of course.

吉列尔莫·劳赫：是的，当然。

We're all about shipping.

我们都是关于运输的。

Okay, so as I mentioned, you write in English, you yap into the tool.

好的，正如我提到的，你用英语写作，你对这个工具大喊大叫。

I'll say for a demo, let's create a contact sales form in the style of ...

我想说，对于演示，让我们创建一个以下风格的联系销售表单：

By the way, I had a typo.

顺便说一句，我有一个错字。

I don't care.

我不在乎。

Let's get it.

让我们得到它。

It's Elf Supreme, the clothing company for an online store.

这是 Elf Supreme，一家在线商店的服装公司。

Now, I mentioned that sometimes people get blocked, there is a writer paralysis at this step.

现在，我提到有时人们会被阻止，这一步会出现作家瘫痪。

So we added enhanced prompt.

所以我们添加了增强提示。

So now you're tapping into the latent space of the model, which has a random component to it.

现在，您正在利用模型的潜在空间，其中包含随机组件。

Guillermo Rauch: And by the way, this is still not a substitute.

Guillermo Rauch：顺便说一句，这仍然不是替代品。

It doesn't contradict what I said earlier, knowing the meaningful tokens, knowing what the right style is, and what it's called, and whatever is still highly valuable.

这与我之前所说的并不矛盾，知道有意义的标记，知道什么是正确的风格，它叫什么，以及仍然非常有价值的东西。

So the first thing you're going to notice is that as the model thinks, you can introspect its thinking.

因此，您首先要注意到的是，随着模型的思考，您可以反思它的想法。

So we added this recently.

所以我们最近添加了这个。

It's been mostly inspired actually by the Deepseek revolution.

它实际上主要是受到 Deepseek 革命的启发。

I would say.

我会说。

Guillermo Rauch: So the fact that when you tell it, "Develop a contact sales form," what is it going to do?

Guillermo Rauch：事实上，当你告诉它“开发一个联系销售表格”时，它会做什么？

We talked about escape hatches.

我们讨论了逃生舱口。

Okay, it's going to use shadcn/ui, it's going to use Tailwind CSS, it's going to use React.

好的，它将使用 shadcn/ui，它将使用 Tailwind CSS，它将使用 React。

And this is your opportunity that if v0 is not doing exactly what you wanted, this is your opportunity to actually go and correct, or influence, or give feedback and so on.

这是你的机会，如果 v0 没有完全按照你的意愿行事，这是你实际去纠正、影响或提供反馈等的机会。

So you're going to notice it spits out a bunch of files, and it gives me the thing that I wanted.

所以你会注意到它会输出一堆文件，并且它给了我我想要的东西。

I'm going to zoom out a little bit, here.

我要把这里缩小一点。

A couple of things that stand out here that again, as an experienced engineer, I can point out.

作为一名经验丰富的工程师，我可以再次指出这里突出的一些事情。

The underlying component system that it uses is the same component system that the best tools on the planet are built with.

它使用的底层组件系统与构建世界上最好的工具的组件系统相同。

This is called shadcn.

这称为 shadcn。

If you go to grok.com today, they're using shadcn to build their UI.

如果你今天访问 grok.com，他们正在使用 shadcn 来构建他们的 UI。

They're using Next.js.

他们正在使用 Next.js。

You're getting that caliber of code.

您将获得那种水平的代码。

Guillermo Rauch: The other thing that it did is people on social media talk about this a lot.

Guillermo Rauch：它所做的另一件事是人们在社交媒体上对此进行了很多讨论。

When you use a global shared component system with the world, you don't want everything to look the same.

当您与世界使用全局共享组件系统时，您不希望一切看起来都一样。

So the fact that he was able to apply the style and he kind of knew what supreme looked like was kind of cool.

因此，他能够应用这种风格并且知道 Supreme 的样子，这一点很酷。

But now I'm going to say, "Actually, because I am building a financial institution, make it more serious, make it in the style of let's say Charles Schwab.

但现在我要说，“实际上，因为我正在建立一个金融机构，所以让它变得更严肃，以嘉信理财的风格来做。

Change typefaces.' So this is the iteration process of like, "I'm going to go and give feedback to the model.

改变字体。”所以这就是迭代过程，“我要去向模型提供反馈。

I'm going to make it try different things." So once that initial generation was already created, now the model is actually acting more as an editor.

我将让它尝试不同的事情。”因此，一旦创建了第一代，现在该模型实际上更多地充当编辑器。

It's going and making tweaks to what's already been built.

它正在对已经构建的内容进行调整。

Guillermo Rauch: And this actually scales to very large projects.

Guillermo Rauch：这实际上可以扩展到非常大的项目。

You could have started with something much bigger.

你可以从更大的事情开始。

So in the meantime, I'm going to show you what Lumalabs created with v0, which is absolutely phenomenal.

因此，与此同时，我将向您展示 Lumalabs 使用 v0 创建的内容，这绝对是非凡的。

I learned about this last night.

我昨晚才知道这件事。

It already has 2,000 forks.

它已经拥有 2,000 个叉子。

I was telling you about the power of our community.

我正在告诉你我们社区的力量。

So by the way, you can just click community here on the v0 sidebar.

顺便说一句，您只需单击 v0 侧边栏上的社区即可。

I'm going to fork it, because they generously shared it with the world.

我要分叉它，因为他们慷慨地与世界分享它。

Notice all the incredible animations here?

注意到这里所有令人难以置信的动画了吗？

By the way, they shipped this to hire and attract talent to their company.

顺便说一句，他们运送这个是为了雇用和吸引人才到他们的公司。

I recommend them, by the way, you should, if you want to be a brand designer, take them into consideration.

我推荐它们，顺便说一句，如果你想成为一名品牌设计师，你应该考虑它们。

Notice that it's an interactive, everything is AI generated, they used their own AI image generation tool to create these beautiful frames.

请注意，这是一个交互式的，一切都是人工智能生成的，他们使用自己的人工智能图像生成工具来创建这些漂亮的框架。

These are all AI generated as well.

这些也都是人工智能生成的。

Guillermo Rauch: And it's interactive.

Guillermo Rauch：而且它是互动的。

So there is the autoplaying functionality.

所以就有了自动播放功能。

This is actually a complex layout in animation system that they built entirely in v0.

这实际上是他们完全在 v0 中构建的动画系统中的复杂布局。

I was telling you that at one point they even got some advice from O-Wan, so shout out to OpenAI.

我告诉过你，有一次他们甚至从 O-Wan 那里得到了一些建议，所以向 OpenAI 大声疾呼。

I'm going to say, "Make it sepia style colors." So this is an example of like, "Okay, I forked something.

我要说，“让它变成棕褐色风格的颜色。”这是一个类似的例子，“好吧，我分叉了一些东西。

I already have a starting point." My bank grade contact form is ready.

我已经有了一个起点。”我的银行等级联系表已准备就绪。

In the meantime, another fun thing to do is you can start with a screenshot.

与此同时，另一件有趣的事情是您可以从屏幕截图开始。

So I'll use another Next.js user as an example, which is fortune.com.

因此，我将使用另一个 Next.js 用户作为示例，即 Fortune.com。

Shout out to them.

向他们大声喊叫。

They built a slick website.

他们建立了一个漂亮的网站。

Guillermo Rauch: But let's say that I'm actually wanting to break into the news business, so I'm just going to paste a screenshot.

Guillermo Rauch：但是假设我实际上想进入新闻行业，所以我只想粘贴一张屏幕截图。

I could have also attached the Figma file.

我还可以附上 Figma 文件。

And I'm going to have, v0 already knows, v0 can answer questions as well about the engineering design product world.

我将会知道，v0 已经知道，v0 也可以回答有关工程设计产品世界的问题。

So I can ask v0, "What is a newsletter?

所以我可以问 v0，“什么是时事通讯？

Explain with a diagram.

用图解释一下。

Use Lenny as an example." So v0 is also a knowledge seeking tool.

以Lenny为例。”所以v0也是一个知识搜索工具。

But we do strongly like, "Steer the tool to create things." So if I paste a screenshot, as you can see, it's cooking on creating a hopefully awesome news website.

但我们确实非常喜欢“操纵工具来创造事物”。因此，如果我粘贴一个屏幕截图，正如您所看到的，它正在创建一个希望很棒的新闻网站。

I specifically asked, because I think it's funny, to explain a newsletter with a diagram, so v0 can create again, explanations, content, knowledge.

我特别要求，因为我觉得这很有趣，用图表来解释新闻通讯，这样 v0 就可以再次创建、解释、内容、知识。

The creator is Lenny, you were a former Airbnb product lead.

创建者是 Lenny，您是前 Airbnb 产品负责人。

I guess I should-

我想我应该——

Guillermo Rauch: ...

吉列尔莫·劳赫：...

have used some examples from Airbnb, by the way.

顺便说一下，我使用了 Airbnb 的一些例子。

But let's look at here-

但让我们看看这里——

Guillermo Rauch: ...

吉列尔莫·劳赫：...

what it created with Fortune.

它与《财富》一起创造了什么。

Guillermo Rauch: So notice that, I'm just noticing now the cyber should have been on the center.

Guillermo Rauch：所以请注意，我只是注意到现在网络应该位于中心。

I'm going to zoom out a little bit.

我要把镜头缩小一点。

Let's use the refinement tool to center this.

让我们使用细化工具将其居中。

I call this, by the way, one of the hardest problems in computer science is actually centering things.

顺便说一句，我称之为计算机科学中最困难的问题之一，实际上是使事物居中。

Guillermo Rauch: That's right, centering a div.

Guillermo Rauch：没错，将 div 居中。

And in fact, look at it.

事实上，看看它。

It was a div.

这是一个div。

So notice that I did a precise inline prompt?

那么注意到我做了一个精确的内联提示吗？

And the difference between v0 and a lot of other tools is that yes, you do have the code and code is very important, but I call it code last rather than code first.

v0 和很多其他工具的区别在于，是的，你确实有代码，而且代码非常重要，但我称之为“代码最后”而不是“代码优先”。

You're living in the product.

你生活在产品中。

So center that.

所以以它为中心。

Another website that I love also built with Next.js is Semaphore.

我喜欢的另一个也是用 Next.js 构建的网站是 Semaphore。

So I really like their sepia style.

所以我真的很喜欢他们的棕褐色风格。

So I'm going to say, "Apply this style instead, including- "

所以我要说，“改为应用这种风格，包括-”

Lenny Rachitsky: So you're sharing a screen.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你们正在共享一个屏幕。

So you used a screenshot to design, to build a site, and now you're using a different screenshot to tell it, "Make it look like this."

因此，您使用屏幕截图来设计、构建网站，现在您使用不同的屏幕截图来告诉它，“让它看起来像这样。”

Guillermo Rauch: And so the idea is that v0 can Grok different aspects of what it needs to build.

Guillermo Rauch：所以我们的想法是 v0 可以 Grok 需要构建的不同方面。

It can be functional aspects, it can be layout aspects.

它可以是功能方面，也可以是布局方面。

And one of the things that's also very important to know is we influence the model.

同样重要的是要知道的一件事是我们影响模型。

So a lot of the things that you would have had to prompt you might get for free.

因此，许多需要提示的事情可能会免费获得。

One that's important to call out is responsiveness.

需要指出的重要一点是响应能力。

So as an example, if I notice that if I do this, it's going to make it work quite well on mobile, it's going to give me that hamburger menu.

举个例子，如果我注意到如果我这样做，它将使它在移动设备上运行得很好，它会给我那个汉堡菜单。

I can now tell it like, "Apply that style to everything."

我现在可以这样说：“将这种风格应用于一切。”

Guillermo Rauch: In the meantime, I'll show you, this is actually to me very, very impressive.

Guillermo Rauch：与此同时，我将向您展示，这实际上对我来说非常非常令人印象深刻。

And I don't know why today I'm so fixated on the theme of sepia.

我不知道为什么今天我对棕褐色的主题如此着迷。

But notice that not only did it change the background, I hope people can notice this.

但请注意，它不仅改变了背景，我希望人们能够注意到这一点。

It applied it to the checkboxes and it applied a CSS.

它将其应用于复选框并应用了 CSS。

I'm assuming this is a CSS filter.

我假设这是一个 CSS 过滤器。

Yeah, it applied a CSS filter.

是的，它应用了 CSS 过滤器。

Just for the sake of it, because I'm a nerd, I'm going to look at it.

只是为了它，因为我是一个书呆子，我要去看看它。

But yes, it applied a CSS filter.

但是，是的，它应用了 CSS 过滤器。

Confession time, I actually didn't know that there was a sepia function in the filter property of CSS.

坦白说，我其实并不知道CSS的filter属性里有一个sepia函数。

There were many ways to accomplish this.

有很多方法可以实现这一目标。

You could have also written the images or the videos to a canvas, and apply all kinds of algorithms, and whatever.

您还可以将图像或视频写入画布，并应用各种算法等等。

Lenny Rachitsky: I like that it did more elegantly than you would have.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢它比你做的更优雅。

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, exactly.

吉列尔莫·劳奇：是的，完全正确。

So that's why you can't be too opinionated with the tool.

这就是为什么你不能对这个工具过于固执己见。

So another cool thing is I do like showing screenshots, but I do want to remind people that the idea is not to clone other people's websites, necessarily.

所以另一件很酷的事情是我确实喜欢显示屏幕截图，但我确实想提醒人们，这个想法不一定是克隆其他人的网站。

Right?

对吗？

It's-

这是——

Lenny Rachitsky: It's just a cool demo.

Lenny Rachitsky：这只是一个很酷的演示。

It's a simple way to show off what it can do.

这是展示其功能的简单方法。

Guillermo Rauch: Take screenshots of your own things.

Guillermo Rauch：对你自己的东西进行截图。

Take screenshots of your art boards, take screenshots of things that people post in Slack, and also don't hesitate add functionality.

截取你的艺术板的屏幕截图，截取人们在 Slack 中发布的内容的屏幕截图，并且还可以毫不犹豫地添加功能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Incredible.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：难以置信。

Thank you for doing the demo.

感谢您做演示。

I'm just trying to imagine having an engineer I'm working with, asking them to do these things, and not only just how annoying that would be, like, "Make it sepia."

我只是试图想象有一位与我一起工作的工程师，要求他们做这些事情，而不仅仅是这会多么烦人，比如“把它变成棕褐色”。

Lenny Rachitsky: But just how much time it would take from, "Okay, do this thing, copy fortune.com." It'd be like days, weeks.

Lenny Rachitsky：但是从“好吧，做这件事，复制fortune.com”需要多少时间。这可能需要几天、几周的时间。

Here, it's just-

在这里，只是——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

check it out here.

在这里查看一下。

Months.

几个月。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：没错。

Well, something that I noticed that I loved at the beginning when you were doing the prompting and that prompt improvement feature is it basically is best practices to make it look good and look better.

嗯，我注意到我一开始在进行提示时很喜欢的一点是，提示改进功能基本上是让它看起来更好、更好的最佳实践。

Which I think is one of the more interesting, I don't know, levers to working with AI is it just has best practices to help you build things that are beautiful and also feels like there's this opportunity of just helping you figure out if what you're building is at all a good idea.

我认为这是与人工智能合作更有趣的杠杆之一，我不知道，它只是有最佳实践来帮助你构建漂亮的东西，而且感觉有机会帮助你弄清楚你正在构建的东西是否是一个好主意。

"What is the problem you're trying to solve?" It feels like there's a PM1 pager step that should exist.

“你想解决的问题是什么？”感觉应该有一个 PM1 寻呼机步骤。

Like, "How do you know this is a problem?

就像，“你怎么知道这是一个问题？

What have users told you?

用户告诉了你什么？

How many people have told you this?" Things like that.

有多少人告诉过你这个？”诸如此类的事情。

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah.

吉列尔莫·劳赫：是的。

There's something to be said about the fact that over time we're more and more peeking into the mind of the AI.

值得一提的是，随着时间的推移，我们越来越深入地了解人工智能的思维。

That in itself is becoming a killer feature.

这本身正在成为一个杀手级功能。

So the Deepseek stream, the thinking tokens moment was a very big moment for our industry, I think.

因此，我认为 Deepseek 流、思考代币时刻对于我们行业来说是一个非常重要的时刻。

Because OpenAI did have the technology, but they decided that for competitive reasons, which, it's a reasonable think to think, no pun intended, they were going to withhold it.

因为 OpenAI 确实拥有这项技术，但出于竞争原因，他们决定保留这项技术，这是一个合理的想法，没有双关语的意思。

And also it wasn't clear that there was going to be product end user and product utility.

而且还不清楚是否会有产品最终用户和产品效用。

But when Deepseek hit, it was very obvious that people really liked the idea of understanding how the AI thinks and influencing where it should go.

但当 Deepseek 出现时，很明显人们真的很喜欢理解人工智能如何思考并影响它应该去往的方向的想法。

We've gotten actually amazing feedback and bug reports where people actually specifically point out, "Look, this is where the AI went wrong.

我们收到了令人惊叹的反馈和错误报告，人们实际上特别指出，“看，这就是人工智能出错的地方。

Please fix it." So the more people we get on this product, the more thumbs up, thumbs down, the more user feedback we get.

请修复它。”因此，我们使用该产品的人越多，赞成或反对的人就越多，我们得到的用户反馈也就越多。

Guillermo Rauch: And by the way, I'll tell you for people out there building products, my number one guidance or piece of advice I would give to any startup founder was, "Create a lot of opportunities for people to give you feedback inside the product." I drew inspiration from Stripe.

Guillermo Rauch：顺便说一句，我会告诉你，对于那些构建产品的人来说，我给任何初创公司创始人的首要指导或建议是，“为人们创造很多机会，让他们在产品中向你提供反馈。”我从 Stripe 中汲取了灵感。

And this was amazing for the early days of Vercel, there was a feedback button with a very slick inline form, with four emojis that would allow you to decide how you were feeling about the feature, the product at that very moment.

这对于 Vercel 的早期来说是令人惊奇的，有一个反馈按钮，具有非常光滑的内嵌形式，带有四个表情符号，可以让您决定当时对该功能和产品的感受。

And that would go straight into Slack.

这将直接进入 Slack。

And we were building day in and day out, just streaming users' thoughts right into our consciousness.

我们日复一日地进行建设，只是将用户的想法直接输入到我们的意识中。

And maybe we would get, I don't know, tens, hundreds a day, especially the early days, maybe a couple a day and whatever.

我不知道，也许我们每天会收到数十个、数百个，尤其是早期，也许每天几个等等。

When you're building AI products, it's a constant stream of user feedback.

当您构建人工智能产品时，会收到源源不断的用户反馈。

So for people that are thinking about not building AI products, it's going to be hard to compete with something that has such a tight feedback loop with users.

因此，对于那些考虑不构建人工智能产品的人来说，很难与用户反馈循环如此紧密的产品竞争。

Guillermo Rauch: The whole idea is to capture users' feedback so the next iteration of the model, the prompt, the fine-tuning, the examples, the rag is better.

Guillermo Rauch：整个想法是捕获用户的反馈，以便模型、提示、微调、示例和抹布的下一次迭代变得更好。

And one of the things that Vercel has done as a result of this insight is we've open-sourced a lot of what makes v0 work.

基于这种洞察力，Vercel 所做的事情之一就是我们开源了许多使 v0 发挥作用的东西。

So let's say that you wanted to create the v0 for doctors as an example.

假设您想为医生创建 v0 作为示例。

You can go to vercel.com/templates, and you can clone a ChatGPT template that basically follows all of the best practices in the world for really high-performance, awesome UIs, and now you can go out and build your own AI products.

您可以访问 vercel.com/templates，您可以克隆一个 ChatGPT 模板，该模板基本上遵循世界上所有最佳实践，以实现真正的高性能、出色的 UI，现在您可以出去构建自己的 AI 产品。

We've also open-sourced the AISDK, which is the foundational plumbing of v0.

我们还开源了 AISDK，它是 v0 的基础管道。

It allows you to connect any model and generate UI from its responses, not just output text, but actually generate UI.

它允许您连接任何模型并从其响应生成 UI，不仅仅是输出文本，而是实际生成 UI。

So maybe because I love showing stuff, I'll just really quickly show you this.

所以也许因为我喜欢展示东西，所以我会很快地向你展示这个。

Guillermo Rauch: So if you go to chat.vercel@ai super quick, you're going to see this is the open-source ChatGPT demo that we've built.

Guillermo Rauch：因此，如果您快速访问 chat.vercel@ai，您将看到这是我们构建的开源 ChatGPT 演示。

You can ask questions like old-school LLM.

你可以像老式法学硕士那样提出问题。

But also, you can ask, let's actually finish this, let's ask, "What is the weather in San Francisco?" We call this generative UI.

但是，你也可以问，让我们真正完成这个，让我们问，“旧金山的天气怎么样？”我们称之为生成式 UI。

It's responding not with just plain text, it's creating components as a result.

它不仅仅使用纯文本进行响应，而且还创建了组件。

Last but not least, and this is a v0 style opportunity, let's ask it to help me write an essay about Silicon Valley.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，这是一个 v0 风格的机会，让我们请求它帮助我写一篇关于硅谷的文章。

It's going to create a canvas or artifacts style experience, and everything is generative, but also users can edit, refine, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

它将创建画布或工件风格的体验，一切都是生成的，但用户也可以编辑、细化等等。

Lenny Rachitsky: This actually reminds me of something I've been thinking about.

Lenny Rachitsky：这实际上让我想起了我一直在思考的事情。

There's all these startups that are building vertical AI tools.

所有这些初创公司都在构建垂直人工智能工具。

This is a little bit of a tangent, and there's always this AI stuff for lawyers, AI stuff for doctors, nurses, and the pitch there is that these are going to be founders that know a lot about the specific problem in this-

这有点离题，总有律师的人工智能东西，医生、护士的人工智能东西，而那里的宣传是，这些人将成为对这个具体问题了解很多的创始人——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

useless market, and so they'll build the tools that are very specific to them.

无用的市场，因此他们将构建专门针对他们的工具。

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, I'm absolutely convinced that expert AI tools are the future.

Guillermo Rauch：是的，我绝对相信专业的人工智能工具是未来。

There's an amazing product being built on Vercel called chatprd.com.

Vercel 上正在构建一个令人惊叹的产品，名为 chatprd.com。

It's the v0 for writing PRDs and it's going to get a v0 integration soon so that you can write your PRD with AI and then you can create it with AI.

这是用于编写 PRD 的 v0 版本，很快就会获得 v0 集成，以便您可以使用 AI 编写 PRD，然后可以使用 AI 创建它。

That's just an example of a vertical that you can go after.

这只是您可以追求的垂直方向的一个示例。

There's also OpenEvidence.

还有 OpenEvidence。

It's like the ChatGPT for doctors, actually.

实际上，这就像医生的 ChatGPT。

There is an amazing startup building x-ray AI tooling.

有一家令人惊叹的初创公司正在开发 X 射线人工智能工具。

So the ideas I think are infinite, and what I've seen from users of AI at Vercel, for example, our legal team loves this tool called Get GC.AI.

因此，我认为想法是无限的，例如，我从 Vercel 的 AI 用户那里看到，我们的法律团队喜欢这个名为 Get GC.AI 的工具。

They could in theory go to ChatGPT to ask legal questions, but someone out there decided, "I'm going to build the best legal AI tool in the world." It's going to be up to date.

理论上他们可以去 ChatGPT 询问法律问题，但有人决定，“我要打造世界上最好的法律人工智能工具。”它将是最新的。

I'm going to obsess about this problem." The CEO herself is a lawyer, so it's going to be hard to compete with that, I think.

我会痴迷于这个问题。”首席执行官本人是一名律师，因此我认为很难与之竞争。

Lenny Rachitsky: But here's what I'm thinking.

Lenny Rachitsky：但这就是我的想法。

This is almost the opposite and I'm curious to get your take, but let's not spend too much time on this, because this is a complete change in-

这几乎是相反的，我很想知道你的看法，但我们不要在这上面花太多时间，因为这是一个彻底的改变——

Lenny Rachitsky: So you showed me the weather widget that you just built, basically it's like a little mini app that the AI built as you're talking to it.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你向我展示了你刚刚构建的天气小部件，基本上它就像人工智能在你与之交谈时构建的一个小迷你应用程序。

Is there a world where when AI, when AGI is far enough and approaching super intelligence?

是否存在一个人工智能、AGI 足够远并接近超级智能的世界？

Can it just build you a Harvey, for example, in real time?

例如，它可以实时为您建造一辆哈维吗？

"Here's the best experience for a lawyer.

“这对于律师来说是最好的体验。

Here we go.

我们开始吧。

We got it for you."

我们为你准备好了。”

Guillermo Rauch: Totally, totally.

吉列尔莫·劳赫：完全，完全。

I believe that eventually, yes, but humans will always want to have some guardrails.

我相信最终是的，但人类总是希望有一些护栏。

The reality is that Get GC is taking a double job.

事实上，Get GC 承担着双重任务。

One is making the best tools for lawyers possible, but also putting their weight behind it, saying, "We've actually used this and we believe that this is what the future should look like." There is a sense of direction and opinion about things and I think left to its own devices, AI, I don't know, this is the double-edged like prompt embellishment.

一是为律师提供最好的工具，同时也给予其支持，说：“我们实际上已经使用了这个工具，我们相信这就是未来应该是什么样子。”对事物有方向感和看法，我认为留给它自己的设备，人工智能，我不知道，这是像提示点缀一样的双刃剑。

AI doesn't always know exactly what we want or what we need.

人工智能并不总是确切地知道我们想要什么或需要什么。

It's still very much a copilot, a partner, an assistant.

它在很大程度上仍然是副驾驶、合作伙伴、助手。

It's not really running our lives, and I don't know that we even would want that, ultimately.

它并没有真正主宰我们的生活，我什至不知道我们最终是否会想要这样。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I'm going to go in a whole different direction, which is taste.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，我要走向一个完全不同的方向，那就是品味。

We hear this word taste all the time.

我们一直听到这个词的味道。

It feels like a thing that people are always suggesting.

感觉就像人们总是在建议的事情。

This will continue to be an important skill, to know what is good, basically to know what people are likely to find valuable and good.

这将仍然是一项重要的技能，知道什么是好的，基本上是知道人们可能会发现什么是有价值的和好的。

And I know clearly you have great taste.

我清楚地知道你很有品味。

You're building incredibly beautiful products, v0's clearly, it's like the most beautiful by default builder out there, as we've seen.

你正在构建令人难以置信的美丽产品，v0 显然，它就像我们所看到的最美丽的默认构建器。

So in terms of building taste, people are always like, "How the hell do I do that?

因此，就建筑品味而言，人们总是会问，“我到底该怎么做？

I have great taste.

我的品味很好。

I know I do.

我知道我知道。

I don't need to." How have you built taste?

我不需要。”你是如何培养品味的？

How do you think you build taste and any advice for folks that are trying to improve their taste?

您认为自己是如何培养品味的，对那些试图提高品味的人有什么建议吗？

Guillermo Rauch: Yes, I think it's extremely important to try lots of products.

Guillermo Rauch：是的，我认为尝试多种产品非常重要。

You need to get yourself out there.

你需要让自己走出去。

I think it's very important to go back to that, get into the world, ship things.

我认为回到这个世界，进入这个世界，运送东西是非常重要的。

Don't be hesitant of self-promotion in a way.

在某种程度上不要对自我推销犹豫不决。

So being very honest with yourself, building something, getting it out there, see how people react.

因此，对自己非常诚实，构建一些东西，将其发布出去，看看人们的反应如何。

Go back to the drawing board.

回到绘图板。

I think it's about exposure.

我认为这与曝光有关。

At Vercel we have one of our internal operating principles as increasing exposure hours.

在 Vercel，我们的内部运营原则之一是增加暴露时间。

Try to quantify how much time you expose yourself to watching how people use your products, even to watch how people use other products, and you'll develop that muscle.

试着量化你花多少时间观察人们如何使用你的产品，甚至观察人们如何使用其他产品，你就会发展这种肌肉。

Taste, sometimes I think we think of as this inaccessible thing that, "Oh, that person was born with taste." I see it as a skill that it can develop.

品味，有时我认为我们认为这是一种难以接近的东西，“哦，那个人天生就有品味。”我认为这是一种可以发展的技能。

Guillermo Rauch: And again, the AI will help you a lot here because we try and capture some of the universal principles of it.

Guillermo Rauch：再说一遍，人工智能将在这里给你很大帮助，因为我们试图捕捉它的一些普遍原则。

But there's also trends in the world.

但世界上也有趋势。

I'm not a super couture guy, but you can see that every year Paris Fashion Week has a theme to it and there is some innovations, there have some breakthroughs, whatever.

我不是一个超级时装爱好者，但你可以看到每年巴黎时装周都有一个主题，有一些创新，有一些突破，等等。

And so trying to stay at the frontier or even try and define the frontier as well is certainly very exciting.

因此，尝试留在前沿，甚至尝试定义前沿当然是非常令人兴奋的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how doable this is, increasing your exposure hours.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这样做的可行性，增加你的暴露时间。

Basically what I'm hearing is, "Use the best apps."

基本上我听到的是“使用最好的应用程序”。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a feedback cycle component to it.

Lenny Rachitsky：其中有一个反馈周期组成部分。

Just like, "Show people the thing."

就像“向人们展示这个东西”。

Guillermo Rauch: And understand these nuances.

Guillermo Rauch：了解这些细微差别。

Right?

正确的？

Guillermo Rauch: So I actually recently created, I published it to my community, v0.

Guillermo Rauch：所以我实际上最近创建了它，并将其发布到我的社区，v0.1。

I created a ChatGPT style interface inspired by Grok.

我受 Grok 启发创建了一个 ChatGPT 风格的界面。

And I captured a few things that Grok does that are just so smart.

我捕捉到了 Grok 所做的一些非常聪明的事情。

So on mobile web, when you press enter on their input, they default to creating a new line.

因此，在移动网络上，当您在其输入中按 Enter 时，他们默认会创建一个新行。

Because they know that the way that people are used to submitting things on mobile is not by hitting enter, like we would do on a desktop computer.

因为他们知道人们习惯在移动设备上提交内容的方式不是像我们在台式电脑上那样按回车键。

You can tap the little icon and your message goes out.

您可以点击小图标，您的消息就会消失。

On desktop, they inverted it.

在桌面上，他们颠倒了它。

When you press enter, you're expected to submit.

当您按 Enter 键时，您需要提交。

And I think if you got a new line, I think a lot of people would get frustrated that most people don't know that they can press command, enter to submit and whatever, and it slows everything down.

我认为如果你有一个新的线路，我想很多人会感到沮丧，因为大多数人不知道他们可以按命令，输入提交等等，这会减慢一切。

And you can basically prompt for those things.

你基本上可以提示这些事情。

Guillermo Rauch: But you have to pay attention to the details and you have to decide what you want to see in the world.

Guillermo Rauch：但是你必须注意细节，你必须决定你想在世界上看到什么。

And sometimes that means either defining best practices, or seeking the best practices, and learning from others.

有时，这意味着要么定义最佳实践，要么寻求最佳实践，并向他人学习。

Another aspect of exposure hours is that you tend to overrate how well your products work.

暴露时间的另一个方面是，您往往会高估产品的效果。

It's very important to give your product to another person and watch them interact with it, expose yourself to the pain of reality.

将你的产品交给另一个人并观察他们与之互动，让自己暴露在现实的痛苦中是非常重要的。

And the more you submerge yourself in the real deal, nitty-gritty of what happens when people use your interfaces and whatnot, I think you you'll come out stronger, more grounded, hopefully more humbled.

你越深入地了解人们使用你的界面时所发生的事情的本质，我想你就会变得更坚强，更脚踏实地，希望更谦虚。

Lenny Rachitsky: We don't like pain, though, and I like that this is a push, "Create some more pain in your life.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：不过，我们不喜欢痛苦，我喜欢这是一种推动，“在你的生活中制造更多的痛苦。

Show people the thing you're building." Do you have a heuristic or number of how many exposure hours per week, per month you want your team to have or is it just more is always better?

向人们展示你正在建造的东西。”您是否希望您的团队每周、每月接触多少小时，或者是越多越好？

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, I'm more is always better.

Guillermo Rauch：是的，越多越好。

I mean, because the inertia is to get inside your head, and the inertia is to think that you know everything, and assume that everything is going good, and, "There are no errors.

我的意思是，因为惯性就是进入你的头脑，惯性就是认为你知道一切，并假设一切都进展顺利，并且“没有错误。

Of course it's fast.

当然很快。

It worked on my machine." I think it's always a push for more.

它在我的机器上运行。”我认为这总是在推动更多。

I do sometimes little things like I asked my team to color my calendar.

有时我会做一些小事，比如我要求我的团队给我的日历上色。

So I say I have to have a certain amount of one-on-ones with my team represented on my calendar, kind of like meetings so that I can sync with people and see how the company's doing.

所以我说我必须与我的日历上的团队进行一定数量的一对一会谈，有点像会议，这样我就可以与人们同步并了解公司的运作情况。

Then I want to have customer meetings.

然后我想要召开客户会议。

And during those customer meetings I push myself to use the products.

在这些客户会议期间，我强迫自己使用这些产品。

In fact, with our enterprise customers, something that I do is I try to forget how things are built, what feature of or Vercel they use and whatever.

事实上，对于我们的企业客户，我所做的就是尝试忘记事物是如何构建的、他们使用 Vercel 或 Vercel 的哪些功能等等。

I just frequently use their products.

我只是经常使用他们的产品。

And I want the product to be great, that's all.

我希望产品很棒，仅此而已。

And then I could try to work backwards.

然后我可以尝试逆向工作。

Guillermo Rauch: So a form of exposure hours for me is seeing what kind of success our customers are having in the real world.

Guillermo Rauch：所以对我来说，暴露时间的一种形式是看看我们的客户在现实世界中取得了什么样的成功。

But again, it's just heuristic.

但同样，这只是启发式的。

Maybe one third of my meetings this week where customer meetings I tried and watched them do.

也许本周我的三分之一的会议都是我尝试并观看客户会议的。

Another really quick one is we invite people frequently to demo how they use the product live, sometimes to the executive team, sometimes to the whole company.

另一个非常快速的方法是我们经常邀请人们现场演示他们如何使用该产品，有时是向执行团队，有时是向整个公司。

And we always inevitably discover something interesting from the customer about maybe there is something that they're in pain about that we didn't know about, or maybe something was not as intuitive as we thought.

我们总是不可避免地会从客户那里发现一些有趣的事情，也许有些事情让他们感到痛苦，但我们不知道，或者有些事情并不像我们想象的那么直观。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I find with these sorts of things, when you do them, when you talk to customers, you have them show how they use the product.

Lenny Rachitsky：我发现，当你做这些事情时，当你与客户交谈时，你会让他们展示他们如何使用产品。

You always like, "Why have I not done this more often?

你总是喜欢这样说：“为什么我不经常这样做呢？

What am I thinking?" It's just so mind-blowing usually.

我在想什么？”通常这真是令人兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk about limitations of v0 at this point.

Lenny Rachitsky：此时我想谈谈 v0 的局限性。

So what should people know about just what v0 can't do?

那么人们应该了解 v0 不能做什么呢？

If you have an existing code base, can you plug it in and start doing stuff?

如果您有现有的代码库，您可以将其插入并开始做一些事情吗？

Or is that coming?

或者那即将到来？

What else should people know?

人们还应该知道什么？

Just like, "Okay, it's not going to do this yet.

就像，“好吧，它还不会这样做。

But- "

但是——”

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, you can import code bases through zip files and Git is coming very soon.

Guillermo Rauch：是的，您可以通过 zip 文件导入代码库，Git 很快就会推出。

It can do full stack development, it can connect to APIs.

它可以进行全栈开发，可以连接到 API。

In the next couple of days, maybe even before this podcast is out, we'll have these very tight integrations so that if you need a database, or if you need an AI model, or if the AI decides it needs that, it'll just seamlessly install it from the Vercel marketplace.

在接下来的几天里，甚至可能在这个播客发布之前，我们将进行这些非常紧密的集成，这样，如果您需要数据库，或者需要人工智能模型，或者人工智能决定需要它，它就会从 Vercel 市场无缝安装它。

And the Vercel marketplace has already curated some of the best infrastructure products in the world to store data, to search data, et cetera.

Vercel 市场已经推出了一些世界上最好的基础设施产品来存储数据、搜索数据等。

So it's going to make the product even more powerful.

因此，这将使该产品变得更加强大。

I'll say again, I did that exercise, and I do that exercise every day of I have a wild idea and try to see if it can come to life.

我再说一遍，我做了那个练习，我每天都做那个练习，因为我有一个疯狂的想法，并尝试看看它是否可以实现。

It's very powerful so far.

到目前为止它非常强大。

AIs are still very much a work in progress.

人工智能仍然是一项正在进行中的工作。

They can make mistakes.

他们可能会犯错误。

We have it as a little disclaimer underneath the input.

我们将其作为输入下方的一个小免责声明。

You will find errors, our fitness function.

你会发现错误，我们的适应度函数。

And we've seen such a strong correlation between user love and retention.

我们已经看到用户喜爱度和保留率之间存在如此紧密的相关性。

Guillermo Rauch: v0's actually their retentive product compared to other AI products that I've built in the past, or little demos that we've done, or whatever.

Guillermo Rauch：与我过去构建的其他人工智能产品或我们做过的小演示等相比，v0 实际上是他们的保留产品。

People subscribe and use it every single day, and are very, if they notice a bug, they're very, very jittery about it because they're depending on it day in and day out.

人们每天都会订阅并使用它，如果他们注意到一个错误，他们就会非常非常紧张，因为他们日复一日地依赖它。

But I'll say errors are still possible.

但我想说的是，错误仍然是可能的。

Every once in a while you might get a runtime error or whatever, but a lot of the technology that we've added is so that v0 is very agentic.

每隔一段时间，您可能会遇到运行时错误或其他任何问题，但我们添加的许多技术使 v0 非常具有代理性。

It has a lot of agency in how to act.

它在如何行动方面有很多代理权。

So you're going to see very frequently that if it runs into errors, v0 tries to solve them itself.

因此，您会经常看到，如果遇到错误，v0 会尝试自行解决它们。

Guillermo Rauch: And then last I will say, when products get really big, AI today is just not as good at dealing with massive code bases.

Guillermo Rauch：最后我要说的是，当产品变得非常庞大时，今天的人工智能并不擅长处理大量代码库。

But going back to that idea of the React component, because we break down things into files and components, we tend to do quite well in that dimension.

但回到 React 组件的想法，因为我们将事物分解为文件和组件，所以我们往往在这个维度上做得很好。

In fact, one thing that Next.js was known for is that in order to start a project, you just create a file, and Next.js will route to that page.

事实上，Next.js 众所周知的一件事是，为了启动一个项目，您只需创建一个文件，Next.js 将路由到该页面。

If anyone is familiar with PHP, it's like how PHP worked.

如果有人熟悉 PHP，就会知道 PHP 是如何工作的。

And so it's so good that LLMs are good at working with files now, because it fits very naturally into our world.

因此，法学硕士现在擅长处理文件，这真是太棒了，因为它非常自然地融入我们的世界。

And if you can scope down when things get really big, if you can give it a smaller task, to work on a specific component or a specific file, you decrease that likelihood of the LLM not being able to reason over very, very, very long context windows.

当事情变得非常大时，如果你可以缩小范围，如果你可以给它一个更小的任务，来处理特定的组件或特定的文件，你就可以降低法学硕士无法在非常非常长的上下文窗口中进行推理的可能性。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to go back to design.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到设计领域。

We talked about how v0 is really good at just great design by default.

我们讨论了 v0 在默认情况下如何真正擅长出色的设计。

To lean into that more, if someone wants to improve the design of their product, most people are not designers, they don't really know how to make it look good.

更深入地说，如果有人想改进他们产品的设计，大多数人都不是设计师，他们并不真正知道如何让它看起来更好。

They don't know what to ask for.

他们不知道该要求什么。

Any just tips and best practices for making their app even better, look even nicer?

有什么技巧和最佳实践可以让他们的应用程序变得更好、看起来更好吗？

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, it was really interesting.

Guillermo Rauch：是的，这真的很有趣。

The other day I met with a CIO of a large bank who, on the side does a lot of coding, or tries out new technologies and whatnot.

有一天，我会见了一家大型银行的首席信息官，他兼职做大量编码，或者尝试新技术等等。

And I showed him v0.

我给他看了v0。

And he immediately became a v0 addict.

他立刻就成了 v0 的瘾君子。

He texts me every day with feedback.

他每天都会给我发短信提供反馈。

He moved two websites of his own from another website builder type provider to v0 and Vercel, deployed them, gave them a domain name, they're live in production.

他将自己的两个网站从另一个网站构建器类型提供商转移到 v0 和 Vercel，部署它们，给它们一个域名，它们已投入生产。

And then he said, "Look, I have this challenge.

然后他说：“看，我面临这个挑战。

I have this music festival that I organize with a couple of friends and this is what the designer gave us." And he had this brochure.

我和几个朋友组织了这个音乐节，这就是设计师给我们的。”他有这本小册子。

It looked very much like a print style design.

它看起来非常像印刷风格的设计。

And so he gave that to v0 and the first result, he was dinging me for it.

所以他把这个给了 v0 和第一个结果，他为此而责怪我。

He's like, "Look, this doesn't look good."

他说：“看，这看起来不太好。”

Guillermo Rauch: And then, because I have experience with the tool, I said, "Why don't I just give it the feedback?" Literally you were asking me yesterday, earlier, some of the things that I've learned with the product or the best practice, what would I recommend if it were sitting next to someone?

Guillermo Rauch：然后，因为我有使用该工具的经验，所以我说：“为什么我不直接给它反馈呢？”从字面上看，您昨天早些时候问我，我从该产品或最佳实践中学到的一些东西，如果它坐在某人旁边，我会推荐什么？

Not only, you should not hesitate to give the AI feedback, it's so interesting, dude.

不仅如此，你应该毫不犹豫地给人工智能反馈，这太有趣了，伙计。

Sometimes people will press a feedback button to tell us what they wanted v0 to do, and literally all we had to do, in many cases is just, "Can you just tell v0 that?" And so he sent me this message saying, "Yeah, I just don't like the design." And I gave him back a prompt that I would've given.

有时人们会按下反馈按钮来告诉我们他们希望 v0 做什么，而实际上，在许多情况下，我们要做的就是“你能告诉 v0 吗？”所以他给我发了这条消息说：“是的，我只是不喜欢这个设计。”我给了他一个我本来会给出的提示。

I don't know what I said specifically, but it's like, "Make it more jazzy, make it more, make it pop."

我不知道我具体说了什么，但它就像是，“让它更爵士，让它更流行。”

Guillermo Rauch: And so trying, and again, it goes back to try to draw inspiration from variety that the AI already knows about.

Guillermo Rauch：如此尝试，再次尝试从人工智能已经了解的多样性中汲取灵感。

So in a couple of prompts, we ended up something that was in his mind, better than the original print design of that brochure, that concert lineup.

因此，在几个提示下，我们最终得到了他心目中的东西，比那本小册子、那场音乐会阵容的原始印刷设计更好。

And at that time, and again, I'm even learning about what v0 is capable of and the best ways to use it.

那时，我什至再次了解了 v0 的功能以及使用它的最佳方法。

But with design, I think unleashing its creativity, and seeing things, and playing with it is definitely super helpful.

但对于设计，我认为释放它的创造力，观察事物并使用它绝对是非常有帮助的。

Lenny Rachitsky: So one thing I'm hearing here is just tell it, "Make this look better." Or, "I don't like- "

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我在这里听到的一件事就是告诉它，“让这看起来更好。”或者，“我不喜欢——”

Guillermo Rauch: You can, totally.

Guillermo Rauch：完全可以。

And if you can use tokens that are relevant, so, "Neobrutalist, minimalist, newspaper-like, vintage, make it look like a telegram." You can try and reach for things that maybe would not naturally come to mind and you'll be surprised about how well it can transfer those ideas into reality.

如果你可以使用相关的标记，那么，“新粗野主义、极简主义、报纸式、复古式，让它看起来像电报。”你可以尝试去接触那些可能不会自然地想到的事情，你会惊讶地发现它能很好地将这些想法转化为现实。

Lenny Rachitsky: Incredible.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：难以置信。

Too easy.

太容易了。

Maybe to close out our conversation, we'll see where this topic goes.

也许为了结束我们的谈话，我们会看看这个话题的走向。

I had this tweet that I loved, that I super resonate with, "The secrets of product quality is blood, sweat, and tears." I completely agree.

我有一条我喜欢的推文，它引起了我的强烈共鸣，“产品质量的秘密是血、汗和泪。”我完全同意。

I think that's why I think my newsletter's been successful.

我想这就是我的时事通讯成功的原因。

I spend so much time on every newsletter post, more than I think anyone spends on a newsletter post, like 10, 20, 30 hours.

我在每个时事通讯帖子上花费的时间比我想象的任何人在时事通讯帖子上花费的时间都多，比如 10、20、30 小时。

And that's why I think it works.

这就是为什么我认为它有效。

Is there anything more behind that tweet, anything you've learned in just the importance of working hard, I guess to great, great stuff?

在那条推文背后还有什么其他的东西吗？你学到了什么关于努力工作的重要性，我想是为了伟大、伟大的事情？

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah, I mentioned exposure hours is a good example of like, "Look, it can be painful.

Guillermo Rauch：是的，我提到暴露时间就是一个很好的例子，“看，这可能会很痛苦。

It can be painful to see your baby break in front of everyone and noticing all the ...

看到你的宝宝在所有人面前崩溃并注意到所有的事情可能会很痛苦......

" The other thing is that a great product is made up of a thousand little details and so you're never really done.

“另一件事是，一个伟大的产品是由一千个小细节组成的，所以你永远不会真正完成。

There's a humility that comes from the process also of why the best product builders will say nine nos for every yes.

这个过程中还存在着一种谦逊，这也解释了为什么最好的产品构建者会对每一个“是”说九个“不”。

Because when you say yes, it's like adopting a puppy.

因为当你说“是”时，就像收养一只小狗一样。

A feature is like adopting a puppy.

一项功能就像收养一只小狗。

It grows into a beast that you have to take care of, and it's very demanding and loving.

它会成长为一头你必须照顾的野兽，它的要求非常高，而且充满爱心。

But also it's a lot, and poops everywhere.

但数量也很多，而且粪便到处都是。

So you have to have a creative restraint.

所以你必须有创造性的克制。

And while you also have to have a give, you have to withhold, sometimes with the respect of the real world complexity that emerges.

虽然你也必须给予，但你必须保留，有时要尊重现实世界中出现的复杂性。

Guillermo Rauch: A little thing that I kind of obsess about.

Guillermo Rauch：我有点着迷的一件小事。

I'll give kudos to the Midjourney team.

我要向 Midjourney 团队表示敬意。

I really love how Midjourney works on mobile web.

我真的很喜欢 Midjourney 在移动网络上的工作方式。

I don't know if they have an app yet, like a native app, but their mobile website is phenomenal.

我不知道他们是否有应用程序，例如本机应用程序，但他们的移动网站非常棒。

And to get it to be that good, by the way, it's possible.

顺便说一句，要让它变得那么好，这是可能的。

It's actually possible to make great things on mobile web.

实际上可以在移动网络上做出伟大的事情。

But it needs that sense of love, and restraint, and obsession, and testing a lot, and using your own products a lot.

但它需要那种爱、克制、痴迷、大量测试、大量使用你自己的产品的感觉。

Dogfooding is a great mechanism, obviously.

显然，内部测试是一个很好的机制。

So we use the heck out of Vercel and v0 to make Vercel and v0, and hopefully that helps us do better.

因此，我们充分利用 Vercel 和 v0 来制作 Vercel 和 v0，希望这能帮助我们做得更好。

But there is a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in the process.

但在这个过程中，我们付出了很多心血、汗水和泪水。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

You can tell how much you use the product.

您可以知道您使用该产品的程度。

It comes through in everything you say.

你所说的一切都会体现出来。

Let me actually ask about this.

让我实际问一下这个问题。

You talked about how you said you have 600 engineers?

你谈到你说你有600名工程师？

Guillermo Rauch: No, 600 people, total and a hundred-

Guillermo Rauch：不，总共 600 人，还有 100 人——

Lenny Rachitsky: How is AI changing the way they work?

Lenny Rachitsky：人工智能如何改变他们的工作方式？

Is there anything there?

那里有什么吗？

Because I feel like you guys are the cutting edge of how products are built.

因为我觉得你们是产品构建的前沿。

What's happening?

发生什么事了？

Is it just everyone's on Cursor and v0 to build stuff?

是不是每个人都使用 Cursor 和 v0 来构建东西？

Guillermo Rauch: Yeah.

吉列尔莫·劳赫：是的。

Yes, but actually it's more profound.

是的，但实际上它更深刻。

I think it's the, everybody can ship, it's the, we build with AI principles in mind.

我认为，每个人都可以交付，我们在构建时牢记人工智能原则。

I actually give a shout-out to the Lumalabs engineer who said, "Well, I'll use AI for everything.

事实上，我向 Lumalabs 工程师表示感谢，他说：“好吧，我将在所有事情上使用人工智能。

I'll use AI also to generate the images for the website." And I'm seeing, for example, our designers that are working on our next conference generate all of the animations with video models.

我还将使用人工智能为网站生成图像。”例如，我看到，我们正在参加下一次会议的设计师使用视频模型生成了所有动画。

I'm looking at, our marketing team are creating demos of how the infrastructure works with v0 that are better than any static diagram or landing page that I've ever seen.

我正在看，我们的营销团队正在创建基础设施如何与 v0 配合使用的演示，这比我见过的任何静态图或登陆页面都要好。

One of my most viral xeets or X posts is something that one of our designers created, which explains how our compute infrastructure works with an interactive demo.

我最热门的 xeets 或 X 帖子之一是我们的一位设计师创建的，它解释了我们的计算基础设施如何与交互式演示一起工作。

And until he created that, by the way he designed, it and created, and we shipped it all in the tool, first of all, it wasn't part of his day-to-day job to do that.

在他创造出这个之前，按照他设计、设计和创造的方式，我们将所有这些都放在工具中，首先，这不是他日常工作的一部分。

Guillermo Rauch: v0 is making you such a powerful generalist that you can step out of your comfort zone of like, "Well, my job was to do only this." You can just create.

Guillermo Rauch：v0 使你成为一个如此强大的通才，你可以走出你的舒适区，比如，“好吧，我的工作就是只做这个。”你可以直接创造。

We have a ritual every Friday, we had it this morning, called Demo Fridays.

我们每个星期五都有一个仪式，我们今天早上就举行了，称为“演示星期五”。

And so it's very important to create the space for people to step out of that comfort zone and use AI.

因此，为人们创造走出舒适区并使用人工智能的空间非常重要。

So us giving permission to people to build and ship things is part of that cultural backdrop that makes these things possible.

因此，我们允许人们建造和运输物品是使这些事情成为可能的文化背景的一部分。

Guillermo Rauch: We had a demo today as part of the Demo Friday of our VP of sales engineering also creating an amazing tool that he's going to use to help prospects understand Vercel with v0.

Guillermo Rauch：今天我们进行了演示，作为销售工程副总裁周五演示的一部分，他还创建了一个令人惊叹的工具，他将用它来帮助潜在客户了解 Vercel v0.0。

So I've heard from DevOps and infrastructure engineers how much they use tools like Cursor to work on the low levels of the Vercel infrastructure.

因此，我从 DevOps 和基础设施工程师那里听说，他们有多少使用 Cursor 等工具来处理 Vercel 基础设施的低级别工作。

So I think very quickly we're seeing AI being embedded everywhere.

所以我认为很快我们就会看到人工智能被嵌入到各处。

I just heard a product request from a customer that was saying, "Okay, Vercel, you sell domain names.

我刚刚听到一位客户的产品请求说：“好吧，Vercel，你出售域名。

Let me come up with new domain ideas with AI." So I just see a future where AI becomes synonymous with software.

让我用人工智能提出新的领域想法。”所以我认为未来人工智能将成为软件的代名词。

I do look forward to it because we need to stop talking about AI at some point.

我确实很期待它，因为我们需要在某个时候停止谈论人工智能。

I foresee, it's probably not going to happen, but it is useful to remind people that AI equals software now, and we are a software company.

我预见，这可能不会发生，但提醒人们人工智能现在等于软件是有用的，而我们是一家软件公司。

We build software, and we use software to build software.

我们构建软件，并使用软件来构建软件。

Lenny Rachitsky: And AI is just a part of that.

Lenny Rachitsky：人工智能只是其中的一部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: Guillermo, what a beautiful way to end it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：吉列尔莫，这是一个多么美妙的结束方式。

Is there anything else you wanted to mention?

您还有什么想提的吗？

Anything else that you want to leave listeners with before I let you go?

在我让你走之前，你还有什么想留给听众的吗？

Guillermo Rauch: I'll leave you with my vision of the future, which is we have this billboard in San Francisco, which is, "Everybody Can Cook." It is also part of the Ratatouille film, one of my favorite movies.

吉列尔莫·劳奇（Guillermo Rauch）：我将向您留下我对未来的愿景，那就是我们在旧金山有这个广告牌，那就是“每个人都会做饭”。它也是我最喜欢的电影之一《料理鼠王》电影的一部分。

I look forward to a future where everybody can get their ideas out there.

我期待未来每个人都可以表达自己的想法。

If you can dream it, you can ship it.

如果你能梦想，你就能实现它。

And also that when you use products and when you see the creations of other people and the things that they put out into the world, that we are collectively making the world better.

而且，当您使用产品时，当您看到其他人的创作以及他们为世界带来的东西时，我们正在共同让世界变得更美好。

So anything you experience hopefully gets faster, higher quality, fewer bugs as we go along.

因此，随着我们的进展，您所经历的任何事情都希望变得更快、更高质量、更少错误。

And I think we're all contributing to that.

我认为我们都在为此做出贡献。

And I look forward to that and I look forward to everyone's feedback on how Vercel can play a part in that future.

我对此充满期待，也期待每个人就 Vercel 如何在未来发挥作用提供反馈。

Lenny Rachitsky: So to build on that, where can folks find you online?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么在此基础上，人们可以在网上哪里找到你呢？

Should they just go to vercel.com, visit v0.com?

他们应该直接访问 vercel.com、v0.com 吗？

Guillermo Rauch: ...

吉列尔莫·劳赫：...

to get started.

开始吧。

I did mention if you want to build your own v0, this is more advanced, but check out our templates on vercel.com/templates.

我确实提到过，如果您想构建自己的 v0，这是更高级的，但请在 vercel.com/templates 上查看我们的模板。

And also I'm BrouchG on X, so you can DM me or tweet at me at any time.

而且我是 X 上的 BrouchG，所以您可以随时私信我或发推文给我。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Guillermo, thank you so much for being here.

吉列尔莫，非常感谢你来到这里。

Guillermo Rauch: Thank you, Lenny.

吉列尔莫·劳奇： 谢谢你，莱尼。

It was so fun.

太有趣了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcasts.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcasts.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。