'“Dumbest idea I’ve heard” to $100M ARR: Inside the rise of Gamma | Grant Lee (co-founder)'

Grant Lee: I'm in my third pitch in, I get to the very end of the pitch, feeling pretty good about myself.

格兰特·李：我正在进行第三次投球，我到达了投球的最后，自我感觉非常好。

The investor pauses a little bit, and then just says, "That has to be the worst pitch, worst idea I have ever heard.

投资者停顿了一下，然后说道：“这一定是我听过的最糟糕的推销、最糟糕的想法。

Not only are you trying to go against incumbents, you're going against incumbents that have massive distribution.

你不仅要对抗现任者，还要对抗拥有大量分布的现任者。

You are never going to succeed."

你永远不会成功。”

Lenny Rachitsky: You guys are at over 100 million ARR now, worth over $2 billion.

Lenny Rachitsky：你们现在的 ARR 已经超过 1 亿，价值超过 20 亿美元。

One of the most interesting ways you guys grew early on was influencer marketing.

你们早期成长的最有趣的方式之一就是有影响力的营销。

Grant Lee: All the initial influencers, I onboarded manually myself.

Grant Lee：所有最初的影响者都是我自己手动加入的。

I would jump on a call with each one of them so that they understood what Gamma represented, how to use the product.

我会立即与他们每一个人通电话，以便他们了解 Gamma 代表什么以及如何使用该产品。

You want to be able to have them tell you story but in their voice.

您希望他们能够用他们的声音向您讲述故事。

I think a lot of people think influencer marketing and they'll think these big trendy creators, people that have a million followers.

我认为很多人都会想到影响者营销，他们会想到这些大时尚创造者，拥有一百万粉丝的人。

This is the wrong approach.

这是错误的做法。

You basically give them a script to read, immediately feels like an ad.

你基本上给他们一个脚本来阅读，立即感觉就像一个广告。

That product is not connected really to them in any way.

该产品与他们没有任何联系。

You're much better doing the hard thing, which is hard to scale, finding the thousands of micro influencers that have an audience where your product maybe is actually useful.

你最好做困难的事情，这是很难规模化的，找到成千上万的微型影响者，他们拥有你的产品可能真正有用的受众。

People really trust what they say.

人们确实相信他们所说的话。

That ends up becoming this wildfire that can spread really, really fast.

这最终会变成一场野火，蔓延得非常非常快。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something you talk about it, there is actually a lot of ways to think experimentally, even in the early stages.

Lenny Rachitsky：你谈到的，实际上有很多方法可以进行实验性思考，即使在早期阶段也是如此。

Grant Lee: We would have an idea in the morning, come up with some sort of functional prototype, recruit a bunch of people that are legitimately good prospective users, but have zero skin in the game, ship fast so people can start playing with it.

Grant Lee：我们早上会有一个想法，提出某种功能原型，招募一群真正优秀的潜在用户，但在游戏中的皮肤为零，快速交付，以便人们可以开始玩它。

In the afternoon, we're already running pretty full scale experiment.

下午，我们已经开始进行相当全面的实验。

You start actually hearing other people describe their usage of the product.

您开始真正听到其他人描述他们对该产品的使用情况。

We can also watch them struggle.

我们还可以看到他们的挣扎。

By the evening or by the next day.

到晚上或第二天。

We can actually go through all of it together and say, okay, we're going back and we have to fix this.

我们实际上可以一起经历所有这一切，然后说，好吧，我们要回去，我们必须解决这个问题。

This is not usable and we've done that for everything.

这是不可用的，我们已经对所有事情都这样做了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Grant Lee, CEO and co-founder of Gamma.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的嘉宾是 Gamma 首席执行官兼联合创始人 Grant Lee。

This is a really unique and inspiring, and very tactically useful conversation because Grant is building something that is essentially the dream for most founders.

这是一次非常独特、鼓舞人心、在战术上非常有用的对话，因为格兰特正在构建的东西本质上是大多数创始人的梦想。

A massive AI startup that's profitable, and has been for a long time, that didn't raise a lot of money for a long time.

一家大型人工智能初创公司一直在盈利，但很长一段时间没有筹集到大量资金。

And as a small team, it's just around 30 people, all who can fit in a small restaurant serving over 50 million users globally.

作为一个小团队，只有大约 30 人，所有这些人都可以容纳在一家为全球超过 5000 万用户提供服务的小餐厅中。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you're not familiar with Gamma, they're an AI powered presentation and website design tool.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您不熟悉 Gamma，它们是一种人工智能驱动的演示和网站设计工具。

They just hit 100 million ARR in just over two years.

他们在短短两年多的时间里就达到了 1 亿 ARR。

They're valued at over $2 billion.

它们的价值超过 20 亿美元。

And unlike a lot of the fast growing AI startups that you hear about, they're growing profitably and sustainably, and in a category that most people did not believe had a huge business opportunity.

与您听说的许多快速发展的人工智能初创公司不同，它们正在实现盈利且可持续的增长，并且在大多数人认为没有巨大商机的类别中。

As you'll hear in the conversation, one investor told Grant, this is the dumbest idea that he has ever heard.

正如你在谈话中听到的那样，一位投资者告诉格兰特，这是他听过的最愚蠢的想法。

Lenny Rachitsky: In this conversation, Grant shares the very counter-intuitive lessons that he's learned, finding product market fit, how he knew they had product market fit, the specific tactics that helped them grow, including a deep dive into influencer marketing, which blew my mind.

Lenny Rachitsky：在这次谈话中，格兰特分享了他学到的非常反直觉的教训，寻找产品市场契合度，他如何知道他们的产品市场契合度，帮助他们成长的具体策略，包括深入研究有影响力的营销，这让我大吃一惊。

Also how they figured out their price, his thoughts on building a GPT wrapper company that is durable, a ton of hiring advice, and so much more.

还有他们如何计算价格、他对建立一家耐用的 GPT 包装公司的想法、大量的招聘建议等等。

This could honestly have been another two hours of conversation.

老实说，这可能又是两个小时的谈话。

I suspect we'll do another follow-up conversation next year.

我怀疑我们明年会再进行一次后续对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you love this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It helps tremendously.

它有很大帮助。

And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of 16 incredible products, including Devin, Lovable, Replit, Bolt, n8n, Linear, Superhuman, Descript, Wispr Flow, Gamma, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, ChatPRD, and Mobbin.

如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的 16 种令人难以置信的产品，包括 Devin、Lovable、Replit、Bolt、n8n、Linear、Super human、Descript、Wispr Flow、Gamma、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、ChatPRD 和 Mobbin。

Head on over to lennysnewsletter.com and click product pass.

前往 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击产品通行证。

With that, I bring you Grant Lee after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了格兰特·李。

Lenny Rachitsky: My podcasts guest and I love talking about craft and taste and agency and product market fit.

Lenny Rachitsky：我和我的播客嘉宾喜欢谈论工艺和品味以及代理和产品市场契合度。

You know what we don't love talking?

你知道我们不喜欢谈论什么吗？

About SOC 2.

关于 SOC 2。

That's where Vanta comes in.

这就是万塔登场的地方。

Vanta helps companies of all sizes get complying fast and stay that way with industry-leading AI automation and continuous monitoring.

Vanta 通过行业领先的人工智能自动化和持续监控，帮助各种规模的公司快速实现合规并保持这种状态。

Whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC 2 or ISO 27001, or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable.

无论您是解决第一个 SOC 2 或 ISO 27001 问题的初创公司，还是管理供应商风险的企业，Vanta 的信任管理平台都可以让您更快、更轻松且更具可扩展性。

Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so that you can win bigger deals sooner.

Vanta 还可以帮助您以五倍的速度完成安全调查问卷，以便您可以更快地赢得更大的交易。

The result, according to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slashed over $500,000 a year and are three times more productive.

根据 IDC 最近的一项研究，Vanta 客户每年节省了超过 50 万美元，而生产力却提高了三倍。

Establishing trust isn't optional.

建立信任不是可选的。

Vanta makes it automatic.

Vanta 使其自动化。

Get $1,000 off at vanta.com/lenny.

访问vanta.com/lenny 可享 1,000 美元折扣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Did you know that I have a whole team that helps me with my podcast and with my newsletter.

Lenny Rachitsky：你知道吗，我有一个完整的团队帮助我制作播客和时事通讯。

I want everyone on that team to be super happy and thrive in the roles.

我希望团队中的每个人都超级快乐并在角色中茁壮成长。

Justworks knows that your employees are more than just your employees.

Justworks 知道您的员工不仅仅是您的员工。

They're your people.

他们是你的人。

My team is spread out across Colorado, Australia, Nepal, West Africa, and San Francisco.

我的团队分布在科罗拉多州、澳大利亚、尼泊尔、西非和旧金山。

My life would be so incredibly complicated to hire people internationally, to pay people on time, and in their local currencies, and to answer their HR questions 24/7.

我的生活将变得极其复杂，要在国际范围内雇用员工，按时以当地货币支付员工工资，并全天候（24/7）回答他们的人力资源问题。

But with Justworks, it's super easy.

但有了 Justworks，这一切就变得非常简单。

Whether you're setting up your own automated payroll, offering premium benefits, or hiring internationally.

无论您是要设置自己的自动工资单、提供优质福利还是进行国际招聘。

Justworks offer simple software and 24/7 human support from small business experts for you and your people.

Justworks 为您和您的员工提供简单的软件和小型企业专家的 24/7 人工支持。

They do your human resources right so that you can do right by your people.

他们正确地利用您的人力资源，以便您能够正确地对待您的员工。

Justworks, for your people.

适合您的员工。

Grant, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

格兰特，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Grant Lee: Lenny, it's so great to be here.

格兰特·李：莱尼，很高兴来到这里。

Thank you for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny Rachitsky: I see your face all the time in my LinkedIn feed.

Lenny Rachitsky：我一直在 LinkedIn 动态中看到你的脸。

I don't know if you know this is a thing.

我不知道你是否知道这是一件事。

On these JPMorgan Chase ads.

在这些摩根大通的广告上。

I'm so curious if other people see this or if it's just me.

我很好奇是其他人看到这个还是只有我看到这个。

Did you know this was a thing?

你知道这是一件事吗？

Grant Lee: I think it's maybe once a day now I get a text message and just no message.

Grant Lee：我想现在我可能每天都会收到一次短信，但就是没有消息。

It's just a screenshot or an image of me doing something in San Francisco on one of these ads that we're seeing.

这只是我在旧金山做某事的屏幕截图或图像，其中一个广告是我们看到的。

And so yeah, kind of embarrassing, but also we're happy customers of JPMorgan Chase, so trying to represent.

所以，是的，有点尴尬，但我们也是摩根大通的快乐客户，所以试图代表。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh my God, I hope you love them.

Lenny Rachitsky：天啊，我希望你爱他们。

Because it's always you.

因为永远都是你。

There's no one else.

没有其他人了。

It's like Grant.

这就像格兰特。

Grant Lee: I know.

格兰特·李：我知道。

Can I talk to you swap somebody out.

我可以和你谈谈换人吗？

I mean that'd be great.

我的意思是那太好了。

I'm totally fine with that.

我完全同意。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so to get serious, the reason I'm really excited to have you here is, unlike a lot of super fast growing AI startups, you are both growing like crazy, you are growing very profitably.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，说实话，我很高兴你们能来到这里，原因是，与许多超快速发展的人工智能初创公司不同，你们都在疯狂地成长，你们的成长非常有利可图。

We're going to talk about this.

我们要谈谈这个。

You did not raise a ton of money when you started.

刚开始的时候你并没有筹集到很多钱。

You waited a long time to raise a bunch of money.

你等了很长时间才筹集到一大笔钱。

You also built a business in a category that I think most people never imagined there was this big of an opportunity.

你还建立了一个我认为大多数人从未想象过有这么大机会的类别的业务。

And you're basically, you've achieved the dream of a lot of founders these days, especially people building AI startups.

基本上，你已经实现了当今许多创始人的梦想，尤其是那些创建人工智能初创公司的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: So my goal with this conversation is essentially do an anthropological study of a really successful AI startup.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我这次谈话的目标本质上是对一家真正成功的人工智能初创公司进行人类学研究。

Talk about how you found product market fit, how you grew, all the lessons you've learned along the journey.

谈谈您如何发现产品适合市场、您如何成长以及您在此过程中学到的所有经验教训。

And I'm going to break this conversation up kind of along the different milestones of the journey.

我将沿着旅程的不同里程碑来分解这次谈话。

Before we get into the first piece, is there anything that you think is important for people to hear broadly about the story of Gamma?

在我们开始第一部分之前，您认为有什么事情对于人们广泛了解伽玛的故事来说是重要的吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah.

格兰特·李：是的。

Maybe I'll just start with a quick story if that's okay.

如果可以的话，也许我会先讲一个简短的故事。

And it's really just the founding story.

这实际上只是创始故事。

So we started the company back in 2020.

所以我们在 2020 年创办了这家公司。

This is peak pandemic.

这是疫情高峰期。

And even fundraising was just so different.

甚至筹款也如此不同。

So all of the fundraising was done over Zoom.

所以所有的筹款都是通过 Zoom 完成的。

You were kind of sitting in these Zoom meetings trying to pitch.

你坐在这些 Zoom 会议上试图推销。

Many investors you never met in person.

许多投资者您从未见过面。

So just a different era.

所以只是时代不同而已。

And so for us, we're first time founders.

所以对我们来说，我们是第一次创始人。

I was actually living in London at the time, and so different time zone.

我当时实际上住在伦敦，所以时区不同。

I had to do all of my pitches at night.

我必须在晚上完成所有的推介。

And I have two little kids, so wait for them to go to bed.

我还有两个小孩，所以要等他们睡觉。

8:00 PM.

晚上 8:00。

We had a pretty modest flat, so nothing big.

我们的公寓相当简陋，所以没什么大的。

I would basically find this little corner between the kitchenette and the laundry room to kind of set up shot, far enough from the kids so they wouldn't be woken up.

我基本上会在小厨房和洗衣房之间找到这个小角落来进行拍摄，离孩子们足够远，这样他们就不会被吵醒。

Grant Lee: In between 8:00 PM and like 2:00 AM, I'm just pitching.

Grant Lee：在晚上 8:00 到凌晨 2:00 之间，我只是在投球。

Trying my best.

尽力而为。

I had the fake Zoom background so people didn't know where I was, and just pitching.

我有假的 Zoom 背景，所以人们不知道我在哪里，只是在推销。

And so really the first day, I'm in my third pitch in, trying to tell the story of Gamma, obviously just starting to get the hang of the pitch.

所以实际上是第一天，我正在进行第三次投球，试图讲述伽玛的故事，显然刚刚开始掌握投球的窍门。

And I get to the very end of the pitch feeling pretty good about myself.

直到比赛结束时我自我感觉良好。

And the investor pauses a little bit, and then just says, "That has to be the worst pitch, worst idea I have ever heard.

投资者停顿了一下，然后说：“这一定是我听过的最糟糕的推销、最糟糕的想法。

Not only are you trying to go against incumbents, you're going against incumbents that have massive distribution.

你不仅要对抗现任者，还要对抗拥有大量分布的现任者。

You are never going to succeed."

你永远不会成功。”

Grant Lee: And so in my head, I'm already kind of shell shocked and thinking what's my rebuttal?

格兰特·李：所以在我的脑海里，我已经感到震惊并思考我的反驳是什么？

And before I could even respond, he hangs up.

我还没来得及回应，他就挂断了电话。

And so I'm there sitting there thinking about it.

所以我坐在那里思考这个问题。

And before I could really get down on myself because I had to prepare for the next pitch, I just internalize this feeling that maybe he's right.

在我因为必须为下一场比赛做准备而真正对自己感到沮丧之前，我只是内化了这种感觉，也许他是对的。

Maybe something about what he's saying is actually correct.

也许他所说的某些事情实际上是正确的。

And so for me, I started thinking about, if we're going to succeed in this category, we're going to really have to think about growth from the very beginning.

所以对我来说，我开始思考，如果我们要在这个领域取得成功，我们真的必须从一开始就考虑增长。

This category is going to be really, really hard to break into.

这个类别将非常非常难以进入。

Grant Lee: And so we really kind of made this sort of promise to ourselves, that as we continue to build, growth was going to be critically important.

格兰特·李：所以我们确实对自己做出了这样的承诺，随着我们继续建设，增长将变得至关重要。

And so my thing to your audience is that I don't come from a growth background.

所以我想对你们的观众说的是，我不是来自成长背景。

So if I can learn growth, anybody can learn growth.

因此，如果我能够学习成长，那么任何人都可以学习成长。

And I think especially in this sort of market, hyper competitive, oftentimes very crowded, it's going to be essential.

我认为特别是在这种竞争激烈、通常非常拥挤的市场中，这将是至关重要的。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is such a fun story.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有趣的故事。

Oh my god.

我的天啊。

How bad must this investor feel at this point.

此时这位投资者的心情该有多糟糕啊。

We won't name names.

我们不会指名道姓。

Just to share some stats, I know this is going to be by the time this launches, this will be out, but you guys are at over 100 million ARR now, worth over $2 billion.

只是分享一些统计数据，我知道这将在发布时发布，但你们现在的 ARR 超过 1 亿，价值超过 20 亿美元。

A business that, again, most people did not think was going to work in this category.

大多数人再次认为这项业务在这一类别中行不通。

Grant Lee: Yeah, thank you.

格兰特·李：是的，谢谢。

Yeah, we feel super proud to have accomplished that.

是的，我们为实现这一目标感到非常自豪。

And again, yeah, I'm excited to share some of the growth tactics and things that worked for us because I think hopefully it'll help others kind of on their journey as well.

再说一次，是的，我很高兴能分享一些对我们有用的增长策略和事情，因为我认为它也能对其他人的旅程有所帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So let's dive into it.

那么让我们深入探讨一下。

Let's talk about product market fit.

我们来谈谈产品市场契合度。

Tell us the story of just how you found product market fit, and how you knew you found product market fit.

告诉我们您如何找到产品市场契合度的故事，以及您如何知道自己找到产品市场契合度的故事。

Grant Lee: Yeah.

格兰特·李：是的。

I'll start by telling kind of the moment where we thought we maybe had product market fit.

我将首先讲述我们认为我们的产品可能适合市场的那一刻。

And I think a lot of founders ask themselves, do we have it or are we not?

我认为很多创始人都会问自己，我们有没有？

And I think there's often a sort of temptation to kind of almost fool yourself into thinking you have it.

我认为经常有一种诱惑，几乎是欺骗自己，让自己认为自己拥有它。

And so we sort of did our first public beta launch, this is back in August of 2022.

因此，我们在 2022 年 8 月发布了第一次公开测试版。

We launched on Product Hunt, and felt really good.

我们推出了 Product Hunt，感觉非常好。

We had what we felt like was a great launch, ended up winning product of the day, product of the week, product of the month.

我们感觉这是一次很棒的发布，最终赢得了当天的产品、本周的产品、本月的产品。

And it was like, wow, I think we have something here.

就像，哇，我想我们在这里有一些东西。

Grant Lee: And then we'd look at signups, and you'd get that initial spike in signups, and then they sort of flatten out.

格兰特·李：然后我们会观察注册量，你会发现注册量最初激增，然后就趋于平缓。

We were still getting new users every day, but it was clear we didn't have strong word of mouth.

我们每天仍然在增加新用户，但很明显我们没有强大的口碑。

There wasn't strong organic virality.

没有很强的有机病毒式传播。

And so if we just kind of played things out, we knew that the product wasn't going to grow on its own.

因此，如果我们只是把事情进行下去，我们就知道该产品不会自行增长。

Something was missing there.

那里缺少一些东西。

We didn't have that strong word of mouth so that the product could just continue growing.

我们没有那么强大的口碑，因此产品无法继续增长。

Grant Lee: And so we really asked ourselves, okay, what do we need to change?

格兰特·李：所以我们真的问自己，好吧，我们需要改变什么？

And the answer is we need to fundamentally change everything.

答案是我们需要从根本上改变一切。

It for us almost became this sort of bet the company sort of moment.

对我们来说，这几乎成为公司的这种赌注时刻。

Because at that point we were running low on runway.

因为那时我们的跑道已经不足了。

We knew we needed to make progress and we didn't really know what could be done.

我们知道我们需要取得进展，但我们并不真正知道可以做什么。

And so we got everyone together.

所以我们把大家聚集在一起。

At this point, the team was just over 12 people.

此时，团队人数刚刚超过12人。

And we said, okay, it's going to be all hands on deck.

我们说，好吧，我们将全力以赴。

Grant Lee: We are going to do everything we possibly can to make the first 30 seconds of the product feel magical.

Grant Lee：我们将尽一切努力让产品的前 30 秒感觉很神奇。

The moment you land into the product, it has to be great, and it has to be so great that someone that goes through that onboarding is going to tell all their friends.

当你接触这个产品的那一刻，它必须很棒，而且必须很棒，以至于经历过入门的人会告诉他们所有的朋友。

And if we can get that right, then maybe we have a chance at actually doing something in this space.

如果我们能做到这一点，那么也许我们有机会在这个领域真正做一些事情。

And so we spent three, four months actually after the product launch, we felt great, but we knew we had to go back to the drawing board.

因此，在产品发布后，我们实际上花了三四个月的时间，我们感觉很棒，但我们知道我们必须回到绘图板。

Grant Lee: We spent the next three, four months actually revamping the entire onboarding experience.

Grant Lee：我们在接下来的三四个月里实际上改进了整个入职体验。

And of course, this is also where AI for us kind of played a big role.

当然，这也是人工智能对我们发挥重要作用的地方。

We actually rebuilt it so that AI was part of the actual onboarding.

我们实际上重建了它，以便人工智能成为实际入职的一部分。

So every single new user would experience this sort of magic in the first 30 seconds.

所以每个新用户都会在前 30 秒内体验到这种魔力。

And so we relaunched, this is end of March 2023.

所以我们在 2023 年 3 月结束时重新启动了。

And all of a sudden, we'd go from a few hundred signups a day to now first day it was like a couple thousand, and then the next day would be like 5,000 signups, and then 10,000 signups a day, and then 20,000 signups a day.

突然之间，我们从每天几百个注册到现在第一天有几千个注册，然后第二天就有 5,000 个注册，然后每天 10,000 个注册，然后每天 20,000 个注册。

Grant Lee: And then it just kept going up.

Grant Lee：然后它就一直在上升。

And we weren't doing any sort of marketing, no advertising.

我们没有做任何形式的营销，没有广告。

It was all sort of organic word of mouth virality of the product, people using the product and sharing it with others, where we for the first time really felt this pull.

这是产品的有机口碑传播，人们使用该产品并与他人分享，我们第一次真正感受到了这种吸引力。

We didn't have to do anything.

我们不需要做任何事情。

Product was just growing.

产品刚刚增长。

And it was just such a distinct difference between that feeling and coming out of the Product Hunt launch where we could have fooled ourselves into thinking we have product market fit.

这种感觉与 Product Hunt 发布后的感觉有如此明显的区别，我们可能会欺骗自己，认为我们的产品适合市场。

I think the temptation would've been, hey, let's just spend more on ads or spend more on marketing.

我认为诱惑是，嘿，让我们在广告上花更多钱或者在营销上花更多钱。

Because we'll just fuel the top of the funnel and everything else will work itself out.

因为我们只会为漏斗顶部提供燃料，其他一切都会自行解决。

Grant Lee: I think that would've been a trap.

Grant Lee：我认为那是一个陷阱。

I think that would've led us down to this path of trying to brute force our way into product market fit.

我认为这会导致我们走上这条试图强行进入产品市场契合之路。

And it would just always be sort of a fleeting sort of destination.

它永远只是一种转瞬即逝的目的地。

We would never actually arrive.

我们永远不会真正到达。

And so I think we made the tough call, the right call.

所以我认为我们做出了艰难的决定，也是正确的决定。

It was a sort of bet the company moment, and I think on the other side it just felt so different.

这是公司时刻的一种赌注，我认为从另一方面来说，感觉是如此不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: Grant, this is exactly what I wanted this conversation to be.

Lenny Rachitsky：格兰特，这正是我想要的这次谈话。

I'm so excited.

我太激动了。

I have so many questions I have to follow up on the stuff you shared before we even get to the rest of the journey.

我有很多问题，在我们开始剩下的旅程之前，我必须跟进你分享的内容。

So one is essentially what you're describing is product market fit to you was when organic growth started to really take off, and it was just growing through word of mouth.

因此，本质上，您所描述的是适合您的产品市场是当有机增长开始真正起飞时，并且它只是通过口碑增长。

You weren't doing much because it was so awesome, people were telling their friends about it.

你没有做太多事情，因为它太棒了，人们都在告诉他们的朋友。

Is there anything more there that might be helpful for people to share just to hear about just like, okay, here's what it actually looks like?

还有什么东西可能对人们分享有帮助，只是为了听到，好吧，这就是它实际上的样子？

Grant Lee: Yeah, I mean my one piece of advice is when you're early on, your mindset should almost be like you're trying to create a word of mouth machine.

格兰特·李：是的，我的意思是，我的一个建议是，当你处于早期阶段时，你的心态应该就像你正在尝试创建一台口碑机器一样。

If you can get that part right, everything else becomes significantly easier.

如果你能把这部分做好，其他一切都会变得容易得多。

And if you have any, and I think this applies to both prosumer, B2C, as well as even B2B products, if you have a B2B product, even if you're not telling all of your friends, you should be telling colleagues where that product is relevant.

如果你有的话，我认为这适用于产消者、B2C，甚至 B2B 产品，如果你有 B2B 产品，即使你没有告诉你所有的朋友，你也应该告诉同事该产品的相关性。

You should probably be telling former coworkers where, hey, you've discovered something like, oh, I wish we had this in our prior lives, and that should even be magical.

你可能应该告诉以前的同事，嘿，你在哪里发现了类似的东西，哦，我希望我们在前世有这个，这甚至应该是神奇的。

Grant Lee: And then you should see that in all the leads that are coming through or people coming through through your prospects and your existing customers.

Grant Lee：然后您应该在通过潜在客户和现有客户提供的所有潜在客户或人员中看到这一点。

If you're not seeing a healthy chunk of those leads come through that way, I would go back.

如果你没有看到这些线索中的大部分是通过这种方式实现的，我会回去。

I'm like, why?

我想，为什么？

Why is that not happening?

为什么这种情况没有发生？

Because again, that's the massive tailwind you need where every single thing you do on top of that, all the marketing, all the sales, all the advertising, you're just going to have it becomes way, way easier.

因为这又是你需要的巨大推动力，在此之上你所做的每一件事，所有的营销、所有的销售、所有的广告，你都会让它变得非常非常容易。

Lenny Rachitsky: How much of this was, you described it as a word of mouth machine, how much of this was word of mouth loops and virality features versus just the product itself?

Lenny Rachitsky：您将其描述为口碑机器，其中有多少是口碑循环和病毒式传播功能，而不是产品本身？

One was awesome and two is kind of innately shareable because it's presentations people share with each other.

其中一个很棒，两个是天生可共享的，因为它是人们互相共享的演示文稿。

Grant Lee: Yeah, totally.

格兰特·李：是的，完全可以。

I think for us, we do benefit from being in a category where, by nature of it, if you like Gamma, you're sharing it, presenting it to others.

我认为对我们来说，我们确实受益于这样一个类别，从本质上来说，如果你喜欢 Gamma，你就会分享它，将它展示给其他人。

So I think for us it's a combination of both.

所以我认为对我们来说这是两者的结合。

And ideally, you have other ways where word of mouth or organic virality can happen in your product.

理想情况下，您可以通过其他方式在您的产品中产生口碑或有机病毒式传播。

So by nature of usage, like it's being shared.

因此，根据使用的性质，就像共享一样。

Grant Lee: We basically had an internal mantra that, we go back to the first 30 seconds, we want it to be dead simple for someone to create content, we want to be dead simple for them to share it.

Grant Lee：我们基本上有一个内部口头禅，我们回到前 30 秒，我们希望人们能够非常简单地创建内容，我们希望他们能够非常简单地分享内容。

And everything we did for that first 30 seconds, or call it the first few minutes, is remove friction so that they can do both of those things.

我们在前 30 秒（或者称之为前几分钟）所做的一切都是为了消除摩擦，以便他们能够完成这两件事。

Create and share.

创建并分享。

And I think other people, when you look at your own product, you think about, okay, what is it about my product and how it gets used?

我认为其他人，当你看到自己的产品时，你会想，好吧，我的产品是什么以及它如何被使用？

Can you remove friction such that it can actually spread, and even if it's locally within an organization or within a workspace, just be able to enable that as much as you possibly can.

你能否消除摩擦，使其真正能够传播，即使它是在组织内部或工作空间内，也可以尽可能地实现这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: The other really profound point you're making here is the story of you won product of the day on Product Hunt, which alone is so hard.

Lenny Rachitsky：您在这里提出的另一个非常深刻的观点是您在 Product Hunt 上赢得当天产品的故事，仅此一项就很难了。

So many people try to win and don't.

很多人都想赢，但都没有成功。

Most people don't.

大多数人都没有。

I've tried to help companies win, and it's a really hard thing to achieve.

我曾尝试帮助公司获胜，但这确实是一件很难实现的事情。

And then you won product of the week and product of the month, and still you're like, no, this isn't working.

然后你赢得了本周产品和本月产品，但你仍然会想，不，这不起作用。

Most people that achieve that are like, no, we got this, and they would not have to bet the company.

大多数实现这一目标的人都会说，不，我们得到了这个，他们不必把公司作为赌注。

There wouldn't be a feeling that we have to rethink everything.

不会有一种我们必须重新考虑一切的感觉。

What is it there that you're just like, no, this isn't going to work, as much as exciting as this is, this isn't it?

到底是什么让你觉得，不，这行不通，尽管这很令人兴奋，但这不是吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah, I mean part of being a founder is being as self-aware as you can and be your own worst critic.

格兰特·李：是的，我的意思是，作为创始人的一部分就是尽可能有自我意识，并成为自己最严厉的批评者。

And so oftentimes you want to have these vanity metrics that feel good to celebrate, and you should celebrate.

通常，您希望拥有这些值得庆祝的虚荣指标，并且您应该庆祝。

But you should know when it's a vanity metric versus is this core to our growth engine?

但你应该知道什么时候它是一个虚荣指标，什么时候它是我们增长引擎的核心？

If this number goes up, does it mean the product is working?

如果这个数字上升，是否意味着该产品正在发挥作用？

And I think that's where we looked at, okay, it felt good to win those things.

我认为这就是我们所关注的，好吧，赢得这些东西感觉很好。

We kind of put ourselves at least on the map.

我们至少把自己放在了地图上。

But it wasn't good enough to actually have this sort of feeling that we had a core growth engine we could just invest in and get better and better.

但实际上还不够好，以至于我们有这样的感觉：我们拥有一个核心增长引擎，我们可以投资并变得越来越好。

That wasn't there yet.

那还没有。

Lenny Rachitsky: So essentially it kind of started to just plateau and slow.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以本质上它开始趋于平稳和放缓。

It wasn't like this rocket ship that took off from that point.

不像这艘火箭飞船是从那个点起飞的。

Grant Lee: Yeah, it was still like we were still getting signups.

格兰特·李：是的，我们仍然在吸引注册。

They were coming through.

他们正在过来。

But you could just tell there wasn't this building momentum.

但你可以看出，并没有这种积聚的势头。

And I think that's where it's always hard to tell.

我认为这就是总是很难说清楚的地方。

You have to, me and my co-founders, we sat down, we're trying to be honest with ourselves.

你必须这样做，我和我的联合创始人，我们坐下来，我们试图对自己诚实。

Okay, is this going to be enough?

好吧，这够了吗？

And it just really felt like it wasn't going to be good.

我真的感觉事情不会好起来。

Lenny Rachitsky: The other point here is the power of onboarding, which comes up a bunch on this podcast when you talk about driving retention.

Lenny Rachitsky：这里的另一点是入职的力量，当你谈论提高保留率时，它会在这个播客中出现很多。

So you launched Product Hunt, did great and then started kind of petering out.

所以你推出了 Product Hunt，效果很好，然后开始逐渐消失。

How much did the product change after things started to work versus onboarding?

与上线相比，产品开始运行后发生了多少变化？

Just like how important was onboarding?

就像入职有多重要？

And then just tell us why the first 30 seconds, where'd you come up with that number?

然后告诉我们为什么前 30 秒你是从哪里得出这个数字的？

Grant Lee: Yeah.

格兰特·李：是的。

So for us, the onboarding and the product experience, for us that's intertwined.

因此，对于我们来说，入职和产品体验是相互交织的。

The analogy I always think about is if you go into a restaurant and maybe the food is good, but when you really think about the user experience, it's like the moment you walk into the door, you get seated, the waitress, waiter comes by, greets you, you can order.

我一直想到的类比是，如果你走进一家餐馆，也许食物很好，但是当你真正考虑用户体验时，就像你走进门的那一刻，你坐下来，女服务员，服务员走过来，向你打招呼，你可以点餐。

And of course the food has to taste good.

当然，食物必须味道好。

And then you finally get the bill and you leave.

然后你终于收到账单然后离开。

Is that entire experience something that feels delightful?

整个经历是不是让人感到愉快？

Is it good enough for you to tell your friends about?

这足以让您告诉您的朋友吗？

If someone just came by and dropped the food on your plate on the table, and just left and never came with a bill, I'm like, okay, maybe I'm not going to recommend this to somebody else.

如果有人走过来，把你盘子里的食物扔到桌子上，然后就离开了，没有带来账单，我会想，好吧，也许我不会向其他人推荐这个。

Grant Lee: And so for us, we thought about, okay, the first moment someone walks through our door, dropping into the product, what is something we can give them?

Grant Lee：所以对我们来说，我们想，好吧，当有人走进我们的门、投入产品的第一刻，我们可以给他们什么？

Can we shorten that time to value as much as possible?

我们能否尽可能缩短价值实现的时间？

A lot of this is inspired by Scott Belsky, he talks about that first mile, the first 15 minutes.

其中很多灵感来自 Scott Belsky，他谈到了第一英里，即前 15 分钟。

And I think that's totally right.

我认为这是完全正确的。

And I think one approach is you think about new users as you almost have a cynical view of them.

我认为一种方法是你对新用户的看法几乎是愤世嫉俗的。

You have to think about them being selfish, vain, and lazy, right?

你必须想想他们是自私、虚荣和懒惰的，对吧？

They're coming in, they have no desire to learn a new tool.

他们进来后，并不想学习新工具。

Grant Lee: And so what can you give them in that first 30 seconds that earns you the next 30 seconds and then the next 30 seconds?

Grant Lee：那么你可以在前 30 秒内为他们提供什么，从而为你赢得接下来的 30 秒以及接下来的 30 秒呢？

And so for us, we knew that if we can't, people's attention span is even shorter to today than maybe 10 years ago, and so what is it in that first 30 seconds, can we actually show you something and earn the right to keep building that relationship with you?

所以对我们来说，我们知道如果我们不能，人们的注意力持续时间可能比 10 年前还要短，那么在最初的 30 秒里我们能真正向你展示一些东西并赢得与你继续建立这种关系的权利吗？

We really thought a lot about that, and certainly that's all we could really afford at the time.

我们确实考虑了很多，当然这就是我们当时真正能负担得起的。

We only had 12 people building.

我们只有 12 个人建造。

It's like we couldn't make an entirely revamp the entire product.

就像我们无法彻底改造整个产品一样。

We knew that we had to least put all of our energy into one spot, and so we made that coming into the door, come through the door, make that moment feel magical so that we can do a little bit more over time.

我们知道我们必须至少把所有的精力投入到一个地方，所以我们让进入门，穿过门，让那一刻感觉很神奇，这样我们就可以随着时间的推移做更多的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love your point about how you could think of it as like, okay, it's onboarding versus the product.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你的观点，你可以将其视为“好吧，这是入门与产品”。

The lens of how do we make this incredibly valuable and aha-ish for the first 30 seconds almost informs what the product should be.

我们如何让这个产品变得极其有价值和令人惊叹的前 30 秒的镜头几乎告诉我们产品应该是什么。

Grant Lee: Yeah.

格兰特·李：是的。

It really helps you pull forward what is the most magical thing about your product.

它确实可以帮助您推进产品最神奇的部分。

Sometimes founders will think about the five, 10 features.

有时创始人会考虑五、十个功能。

Well, maybe there's only one thing that kind of differentiates you.

好吧，也许只有一件事能让你与众不同。

I try to learn a lot from, we'll get into some of the marketing pieces of this, but even just having this sort of founder led marketing lens of what can I do to help a new user just understand.

我试图从中学到很多东西，我们将深入了解其中的一些营销部分，但即使只有这种创始人主导的营销镜头，我也能做些什么来帮助新用户理解。

There's this thing from consumer advertising, which is you throw a consumer one egg, they can probably catch it.

消费者广告中有这样一句话，就是你向消费者扔一个鸡蛋，他们可能会接住它。

You throw them four or five eggs, they're probably going to drop all of them.

你向他们扔四五个鸡蛋，他们可能会全部掉下来。

Grant Lee: And oftentimes founders want to talk about the four or five features they have, maybe 10 features.

Grant Lee：创始人常常想谈论他们拥有的四到五个功能，也许是 10 个功能。

And then the consumer is totally confused, like why do I need this thing?

然后消费者就完全困惑了，比如我为什么需要这个东西？

We try to just give them that one egg, that one first experience.

我们尝试只给他们一个鸡蛋，一个第一次体验。

We're like, okay, create a slide in seconds.

我们就像，好吧，在几秒钟内创建一张幻灯片。

That's the egg.

那就是鸡蛋。

I'm going to throw you this egg.

我要把这个鸡蛋扔给你。

Is that compelling to you?

这对你来说有吸引力吗？

Some people are still going to opt out, but for the people that catch that, you're solving a real problem for them, and then you can continue building on that over time.

有些人仍然会选择退出，但对于那些发现这一点的人来说，你正在为他们解决一个真正的问题，然后你可以随着时间的推移继续在此基础上继续发展。

You've given them enough so that they'll sit around and keep playing with your product.

你已经给了他们足够多的东西，这样他们就会坐下来继续玩你的产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is a hilarious metaphor I've never heard for onboarding time to value, just focus on one egg at a time.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个我从未听过的有趣的比喻，它描述了如何重视入职时间，一次只关注一个鸡蛋。

Just going even further back, what was the original insight that you had that led to Gamma and what Gamma is today?

更进一步，您最初的洞察是什么导致了 Gamma 以及今天的 Gamma 是什么？

Grant Lee: After the last startup I was at was acquired, I went back into kind of my roots, which is consulting.

Grant Lee：在我所在的最后一家初创公司被收购后，我又回到了自己的根源，那就是咨询。

I was advising early stage startups.

我为早期初创公司提供建议。

And the sort of medium I was using was Google Slides.

我使用的媒介是谷歌幻灯片。

So I just remember this late night trying to prepare for next day's meeting, trying to format and figure out the right layout, and spending hours just trying to get the sort of look and feel right, rather than the content itself.

所以我只记得这个深夜试图为第二天的会议做准备，尝试格式化并找出正确的布局，并花了几个小时只是为了让外观和感觉正确，而不是内容本身。

And for me, that just felt completely backwards.

对我来说，这感觉完全是倒退。

I should be spending 90% of the time on the content, 10% maybe on the design and formatting.

我应该把 90% 的时间花在内容上，10% 的时间花在设计和格式上。

Grant Lee: And so the question just was what if there's a better way?

Grant Lee：所以问题是如果有更好的方法怎么办？

What if we could reimagine this format from the ground up?

如果我们可以从头开始重新构想这种格式会怎么样？

Slides have been around for almost 40 years as the default medium of choice for a lot of this.

幻灯片作为许多此类活动的默认选择媒介已经存在了近 40 年。

And so we thought about, okay, if we had different building blocks, different primitives, so you're not locked into the fixed 16 by nine slide, what could we offer to users?

所以我们想，好吧，如果我们有不同的构建块、不同的基元，这样您就不会被锁定在固定的 16 x 9 幻灯片中，我们可以为用户提供什么？

And so that was really the starting point of all this.

这确实是这一切的起点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Hearing this, I could see why investors would be like, I guess so.

Lenny Rachitsky：听到这个，我可以理解为什么投资者会这样，我想是这样。

But slides has been around, PowerPoint has been around 40 years.

但幻灯片已经存在，PowerPoint 已经有 40 年左右的历史了。

I get it.

我得到它。

I get why people would be...

我明白为什么人们会...

And specifically AI, was that a part of the vision initially, or did AI start to come up, and then wow, great timing,

特别是人工智能，这是最初愿景的一部分，或者人工智能开始出现，然后哇，时机很好，

Grant Lee: Great timing.

格兰特·李：时机很好。

It wasn't part of the original vision, although the spirit was there, which is we wanted to make it incredibly fast and effortless for people to create content.

这不是最初愿景的一部分，尽管我们的精神是存在的，那就是我们希望让人们能够以难以置信的速度和轻松地创建内容。

So it just so happened that AI was a magical gift that allowed us to do all those things along the same sort of ambition or vision that we had.

所以碰巧的是，人工智能是一种神奇的礼物，它让我们能够按照我们拥有的同样的野心或愿景来做所有这些事情。

And so we integrated it core to all the building blocks we were already building well before AI was part of the picture.

因此，我们将其核心集成到我们早在人工智能成为一部分之前就已经构建的所有构建模块中。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's such a cool other example.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很酷的例子。

There's just so many examples of ideas that were not possible before are now very possible with AI.

有很多以前不可能实现的想法现在都可以通过人工智能实现。

And it's a great opportunity for people to come after as these places, categories, people think is an impossible place to build a big business.

这对人们来说是一个很好的机会，因为人们认为这些地方、类别是不可能建立大企业的地方。

AI now allows it.

人工智能现在允许这样做。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of that, let's talk about the growth journey, and how you actually grew from nothing to 100 million ARR in just over two years.

Lenny Rachitsky：说到这里，我们来谈谈成长历程，以及你们是如何在短短两年多的时间里从一无所有到 1 亿 ARR 的。

I'm thinking we break it up.

我想我们分手吧

I know these milestones aren't that clear, but kind of like zero to 100 million ARR, one to 10, 10 to 100, something like that.

我知道这些里程碑不是那么明确，但有点像 0 到 1 亿 ARR，1 到 10，10 到 100，类似的东西。

And let's just see how it goes.

让我们看看进展如何。

How did you get your first set of users?

您是如何获得第一批用户的？

How'd you get your, say, first 100 users?

比如说，您是如何获得前 100 个用户的？

How'd you get to 100 million ARR from zero?

您是如何从零达到 1 亿 ARR 的？

Grant Lee: Our first 100 looks very different, I'd say.

Grant Lee：我想说，我们的前 100 个看起来非常不同。

So this was even pre this sort of AI launch we had.

所以这甚至是在我们推出此类人工智能之前。

The first 100 users for a product like ours, you're trying to convince all your friends to use the product.

对于像我们这样的产品的前 100 个用户，您正在努力说服所有朋友使用该产品。

Anybody that's ever made a slide deck, you're trying to talk to.

您想与任何曾经制作过幻灯片的人交谈。

And I think early on, your friends want to do you a favor, so they're going to try the product.

我认为在早期，您的朋友想帮您一个忙，所以他们会尝试该产品。

They're also going to lie to you.

他们也会对你撒谎。

They're going to tell you how great it is.

他们会告诉你这有多棒。

And then you look at the usage and nobody's coming back.

然后你查看使用情况，发现没有人回来。

Grant Lee: And so I think our first 100 was sort of gradually hard-earned post the product launch, people learning like, okay, this is kind of becoming a little bit more useful.

Grant Lee：所以我认为我们的前 100 个是在产品发布后逐渐来之不易的，人们了解到，好吧，这有点变得更有用了。

Usage was still pretty episodic, so they weren't coming back every week.

使用情况仍然是间歇性的，所以他们不会每周都回来。

And then I do think the moment post the AI launch is where all of a sudden we saw that sort of organic growth happening, people coming back to the product regularly.

然后我确实认为人工智能发布后的那一刻我们突然看到了这种有机增长的发生，人们定期回到该产品。

And so that's where, it wasn't even the first hundred, it was like probably the first 10,000 users all came within a pretty short time period after that initial launch.

因此，这甚至不是前 100 个用户，而是可能在首次发布后很短的时间内就出现了前 10,000 个用户。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

We're going to talk about monetization pricing later, which is obviously an important part of actual getting to million ARR and 10 million AAR.

我们稍后会讨论变现定价，这显然是实际达到百万 ARR 和 1000 万 AAR 的重要组成部分。

So what I'm hearing essentially is the Product Hunt launch was a big part of just the first 10,000-ish users.

所以我听到的基本上是 Product Hunt 的发布是前 10,000 名左右用户的很大一部分。

I know there was also a tweet when you relaunched that helped in a big way.

我知道当你重新启动时还有一条推文给了我很大帮助。

Talk about that.

谈谈那个。

Grant Lee: Yeah.

格兰特·李：是的。

So when we did our AI launch, we didn't do our AI launch on Product Hunt.

因此，当我们发布人工智能时，我们并没有在 Product Hunt 上发布人工智能。

We basically said, hey, let's just put it out on Twitter, see if we can get some virality.

我们基本上说，嘿，让我们把它发布到 Twitter 上，看看是否能获得一些病毒式传播。

And honestly, we kind came up with kind of a clickbaity sort of tweet.

老实说，我们想出了一种标题党式的推文。

It was like the most valuable skill in business is about to become obsolete.

就好像商业中最有价值的技能即将过时一样。

And so it was intentional in that we wanted to create a little bit of engagement.

所以我们是故意的，因为我们想创造一点参与感。

We knew that having sort of a more provocative in a tweet would allow people to engage with it.

我们知道，在推文中添加更具挑衅性的内容可以让人们参与其中。

Grant Lee: And so after a couple of days, all of a sudden it started getting a little bit more viral and a lot more engagement.

格兰特·李：几天后，它突然开始变得更加病毒化，参与度也大大提高。

And we looked and it was basically because Paul Graham had commented and saying something like, "Surely, the thing that the slide deck is describing is more valuable than the slide itself." And obviously it was fun just to see that comment.

我们看了看，这基本上是因为保罗·格雷厄姆评论道，“当然，幻灯片所描述的内容比幻灯片本身更有价值。”显然，看到这个评论就很有趣。

I think once that comment came through, even more engagement on the post.

我认为一旦这条评论通过，帖子的参与度就会更高。

And then that was really the whole intent of that post was just to be able to have that level of engagement so that people, it would have some level of reach.

那篇文章的真正目的就是能够达到一定程度的参与度，以便人们能够达到一定程度的影响力。

Grant Lee: And so for me, it was almost like my first learning moment, going back to what does founder led marketing even mean?

Grant Lee：对我来说，这几乎就像我的第一次学习时刻，回到创始人主导的营销到底意味着什么？

It means how do you actually break through the noise?

这意味着你如何真正突破噪音？

How do you get a chance to have people even engage with a post like that?

您如何有机会让人们参与这样的帖子？

Part of that is copywriting, part of that is storytelling.

一部分是文案写作，一部分是讲故事。

Part of that is just having even the right visuals to share.

其中一部分就是拥有合适的视觉效果来分享。

And so it was for me kind of a moment just understanding, hey, to kind of do this right, you kind of have to do things that maybe you're not super comfortable with, but it makes a difference.

所以对我来说，那一刻我明白了，嘿，为了正确地做这件事，你必须做一些你可能不太舒服的事情，但这会有所不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: Such a fun story.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：真是一个有趣的故事。

So you intentionally set that announcement up to be controversial is what I'm hearing?

所以我听到的是你故意让这个公告引起争议？

Grant Lee: Totally.

格兰特·李：完全可以。

Yeah.

是的。

I'd say provocative.

我想说的是挑衅。

A little spicy.

有点辣。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is so cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太酷了。

So essentially you got to 10,000 users through Product Hunt, and then essentially one controversial tweet that ended up baiting Paul Graham to comment.

所以基本上你通过 Product Hunt 获得了 10,000 个用户，然后基本上是一条有争议的推文，最终引诱 Paul Graham 发表评论。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And it was just a comment.

这只是一条评论。

It wasn't even him retweeting it.

连他转发的都不是。

Grant Lee: No, just a comment.

Grant Lee：不，只是一个评论。

And then others would pile on.

然后其他人就会蜂拥而至。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

It's interesting how much a comment can increase the distribution of a tweet versus them retweeting it or quote tweeting it.

有趣的是，与转发或引用推文相比，评论可以在多大程度上增加推文的分发。

Grant Lee: Totally.

格兰特·李：完全可以。

And of course the algorithm change all the time.

当然，算法一直在变化。

So part of it was just luck based on when it happened, how it happened, who posted.

所以部分原因只是运气，取决于它发生的时间、如何发生、谁发帖。

Lenny Rachitsky: And you use this term founder led marketing, which I love, and I'm already seeing it in action here.

Lenny Rachitsky：你使用了“创始人主导的营销”这个词，我很喜欢这个词，而且我已经在这里看到了它的实际应用。

This is you thinking about, it's not delegating to someone in marketing, it's not hiring an agency, it's like how do I tell a story that I think will break through the noise based on you building this company, having the insight to build this product.

这是你在思考的，这不是委托给营销人员，也不是雇用代理机构，这就像我如何讲述一个故事，我认为这个故事将打破噪音，基于你建立这家公司，拥有构建这个产品的洞察力。

And I guess is there anything more there you think is important for people to hear about the importance of the founder thinking through this stuff?

我想还有什么你认为让人们了解创始人思考这些东西的重要性很重要吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah.

格兰特·李：是的。

I mean, I think most people today are probably familiar with founder-led sales, which is still very, very important.

我的意思是，我认为今天的大多数人可能都熟悉创始人主导的销售，这仍然非常非常重要。

I think before you hire your first salesperson or AE, it's great for the founder to understand what it takes.

我认为在雇佣第一位销售人员或 AE 之前，创始人最好了解一下这需要什么。

And they're going to craft the right narrative, the right story.

他们将制作正确的叙述、正确的故事。

At my previous role, I was the COO at a startup where I was doing a lot of, I wasn't founder, but I was early.

在我之前的职位上，我是一家初创公司的首席运营官，在那里我做了很多事情，我不是创始人，但我很早。

And so I was helping the founders go through this, and really helping go into meetings with a client or a prospect and saying, "Hey, this is why our product is interesting."

因此，我正在帮助创始人解决这个问题，并真正帮助与客户或潜在客户会面，并说：“嘿，这就是我们的产品有趣的原因。”

Grant Lee: And I think today there's so many AI startups that are much more either B2C or prosumer.

Grant Lee：我认为现在有很多人工智能初创公司，要么是 B2C，要么是产消者。

And so you're not necessarily talking to individual prospects, but the idea that you can be really in control of the narrative on the marketing side is really, really important.

因此，你不一定要与个人潜在客户交谈，但你可以真正控制营销方面的叙述这一想法非常非常重要。

And I think I'll describe a few things where, over time, I think that skill set just really, really helps you.

我想我会描述一些事情，随着时间的推移，我认为这些技能真的非常非常有帮助。

Grant Lee: One is you have a chance to be a creator yourself these days.

Grant Lee：一是你现在有机会成为一名创造者。

I think a lot of founders are trying to be more active on social media.

我认为很多创始人都在努力在社交媒体上更加活跃。

And I think if you can kind of overcome the initial cringe factor of seeing yourself and postings like, oh, this doesn't feel authentic, if you can overcome that initial feeling, you start investing into like, okay, how do I become a better copywriter?

我认为，如果你能克服最初看到自己和发帖时的畏缩因素，比如，哦，这感觉不真实，如果你能克服这种最初的感觉，你就会开始投资，比如，好吧，我如何成为一名更好的文案撰稿人？

How do I articulate something that is clear, not just clever?

我怎样才能清晰地表达一些东西，而不仅仅是聪明的东西？

I think there's that saying where obviously if you can have that clarity, that's super important.

我认为有一句话说得很清楚，如果你能有这样的清晰度，那是非常重要的。

And most people will try to get super creative with their copywriting, but that's not usually the right way to break through and communicate something.

大多数人都会尝试在文案写作中发挥超级创意，但这通常不是突破和传达某些内容的正确方式。

So how do you improve your own copywriting?

那么如何提高自己的文案写作呢？

Grant Lee: And then that allows you to actually have a higher bar when you start working with other marketers, or in this case for us, working with influencers.

Grant Lee：当您开始与其他营销人员合作时，或者在本例中，与有影响力的人合作时，这可以让您实际上拥有更高的标准。

If you're working with influencers and creators, and you can totally empathize with how they approach that work, and you know what a good hook looks like or you know how to structure a good post, you can only do that if you've gone through it a little bit yourself and you know how hard it is.

如果你正在与有影响力的人和创作者一起工作，并且你可以完全理解他们如何处理这项工作，并且你知道一个好的挂钩是什么样的，或者你知道如何构建一个好的帖子，那么只有你自己经历过一点并且知道它有多么困难，你才能做到这一点。

And I think too many founders will then just say, they'll write something that just feels so much like an ad, and then they'll give it to a creator to help amplify.

我认为太多的创始人会说，他们会写一些感觉很像广告的东西，然后他们会把它交给创作者来帮助放大。

And then that just never works.

然后那就永远行不通了。

And so I do think part of founder-led marketing is going through this yourself.

所以我确实认为创始人主导的营销的一部分就是你自己经历这个。

Grant Lee: And so I do think part of founder-led marketing is going through this yourself, using your own platform.

格兰特·李：所以我确实认为创始人主导的营销的一部分是你自己使用自己的平台来经历这个过程。

In the beginning it's probably going to be super small.

一开始它可能会非常小。

But as you get bigger, you have a platform to ...

但当你变得更大时，你就有了一个平台......

You have a voice and people listen.

你有发言权，人们会倾听。

And you're going to get better and better at your own storytelling.

而且你会越来越擅长自己讲故事。

I think these are all skills you should invest in as early as possible, because you know you're going to have to get better and better.

我认为这些都是你应该尽早投资的技能，因为你知道你必须变得越来越好。

It's like practice, you got to practice over and over.

就像练习一样，你必须一遍又一遍地练习。

Lenny Rachitsky: I definitely want to pull on this thread more because you tweeting the lessons you learned building Gamma is what led to this conversation.

Lenny Rachitsky：我绝对想更多地关注这个话题，因为你在推特上发布了你在构建 Gamma 时学到的经验教训，这就是引发这次对话的原因。

I was reading, I'm like, " Okay, he's sharing a bunch of stuff, but there's so much more I want to hear." And we're going to talk through this and go in a lot more depth than what you've shared on Twitter.

我在读的时候，我想，“好吧，他分享了很多东西，但我想听的还有很多。”我们将讨论这个问题，并且比您在 Twitter 上分享的内容更深入。

But I love that that's example of that working, having this conversation.

但我喜欢这个例子，进行这次对话。

Lenny Rachitsky: So let me ask a couple of questions here.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我在这里问几个问题。

One is just how do you find time as a founder or CEO of a very fast growing crazy startup?

其中一个问题是，作为一家快速发展的疯狂初创公司的创始人或首席执行官，你如何找到时间？

We have so much to do.

我们有很多事情要做。

How do you just allocate the time to do this?

你如何分配时间来做这件事？

And then any just key lessons you've learned about doing this well, beyond what you've already shared for people that want to try to start sharing things on LinkedIn and Twitter?

那么，除了您已经为想要尝试开始在 LinkedIn 和 Twitter 上分享内容的人们分享的内容之外，您还学到了如何做好这件事的关键经验教训吗？

Grant Lee: My advice is definitely just to try to start small.

Grant Lee：我的建议绝对是尝试从小事做起。

Don't let it become so intimidating that you just don't get started.

不要让它变得如此令人生畏，以至于你不敢开始。

For me, it was like just having a notepad or a Google Doc around in the beginning where I would just constantly jot down, okay, this is something I learned or something I observed or something that worked well, something that was unintuitive but worked, and just start creating a log of that.

对我来说，这就像一开始就有一个记事本或谷歌文档，我会不断地记下，好吧，这是我学到的东西，或者我观察到的东西，或者效果很好的东西，一些不直观但有效的东西，然后开始创建一个日志。

And then once I had enough of those, and I'd spend basically every week, I'd block off a few hours to go a little bit deeper.

然后，一旦我受够了这些，而且我基本上每周都会花一些时间，我就会抽出几个小时来更深入地研究。

I'd take a lot of those bullet points and try to say, "Is there enough here to turn this into maybe a post or something that can be shared broadly?" And in the beginning I didn't have enough.

我会考虑很多这些要点，并尝试说：“这里是否有足够的内容可以将其变成一篇帖子或可以广泛分享的内容？”一开始我还不够。

It was all sort of scattered thoughts.

这都是一些零散的想法。

But over time you start accumulating some interesting themes.

但随着时间的推移，你开始积累一些有趣的主题。

And then I would start stress testing some of that.

然后我会开始对其中的一些进行压力测试。

Grant Lee: So I would tell my teammates like, "Hey, this is something interesting.

格兰特·李：所以我会告诉我的队友，“嘿，这很有趣。

Do you find this interesting?" And if there were enough like, "Oh yeah, I would not have expected that", or, "That's not something I've ever heard before," then I'd actually start crafting the initial post.

你觉得这很有趣吗？”如果有足够多的人，“哦，是的，我没想到会这样”，或者“这不是我以前听过的东西”，那么我实际上会开始制作最初的帖子。

And then you actually just put it out there.

然后你实际上就把它放在那里。

I think what I've learned is, even for LinkedIn versus Twitter, the audiences want different things.

我认为我了解到的是，即使对于 LinkedIn 和 Twitter，受众想要的东西也是不同的。

And so you almost have to then have different tones of voices or even nuggets or sharing.

所以你几乎必须有不同的语气，甚至是掘金或分享。

For me, I invested much more in LinkedIn early on just because it felt a little bit more natural for me.

对我来说，我很早就在 LinkedIn 上投入了更多，只是因为它对我来说更自然一些。

And then over time I said, "Okay, well I'm going to start packaging certain content for Twitter that's actually different than what I would post on LinkedIn." Sometimes on Twitter you get even more tactical or even more into the weeds.

然后随着时间的推移，我说：“好吧，我将开始为 Twitter 打包某些内容，这些内容实际上与我在 LinkedIn 上发布的内容不同。”有时在推特上你会变得更有策略，甚至更深入。

And so I found that to be helpful.

所以我发现这很有帮助。

Grant Lee: But honestly, I'm still learning.

Grant Lee：但说实话，我还在学习中。

And so every time you post, you go back, after a couple of weeks you go and say, "Okay, what things are actually being engaged with?

所以每次你发帖时，你都会回去，几周后你会说：“好吧，实际上正在讨论什么事情？

Are things actually creating ..." Ideally you're creating enough value where people are either bookmarking it, sharing it, retweeting it, these things that are signals for there's something valuable there.

事物真的在创造吗……”理想情况下，你创造了足够的价值，人们可以为它添加书签、分享它、转发它，这些东西都是有价值的信号。

And then you just go back and you start collecting your own sort of, these are my all-star posts, these are the ones that I've actually broken through.

然后你回去开始收集你自己的，这些是我的全明星帖子，这些是我实际上已经突破的帖子。

And then you go back and try to understand, okay, what about that post do I think was actually useful?

然后你回去尝试理解，好吧，我认为那篇文章实际上有用吗？

Was it the actual content?

这是实际内容吗？

Was it the structure of the content?

是内容的结构吗？

Was it some sort of contrarian advice?

这是某种逆向建议吗？

And you start thematically bunching that together such that as you're brainstorming every week, you just have a good sort of body of work to work off.

然后你开始按主题将它们组合在一起，这样当你每周集思广益时，你就有了大量的工作要做。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is so interesting and valuable.

Lenny Rachitsky：这非常有趣且有价值。

So let me mirror back a few of the lessons that I heard here that I think is easy for people to miss.

因此，让我回顾一下我在这里听到的一些我认为人们很容易错过的教训。

So one is just what to share.

所以，一是要分享的内容。

What I heard here, and I completely agree with this, and this is what I try to do, is pay attention to things you've learned, things that you find interesting, things that are unintuitive to you.

我在这里听到的，我完全同意这一点，这就是我试图做的，就是关注你学到的东西，你觉得有趣的东西，对你来说不直观的东西。

Just have a doc and just put these there.

只要有一个医生，然后把这些放在那里即可。

And every time you learn something, find something interesting, just add it to the doc.

每次你学到一些东西，发现一些有趣的东西，只需将其添加到文档中即可。

Or yeah, I haven't heard before is a good one too.

或者是的，我以前没听说过也很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: So it's essentially just like if you find it interesting, people on social media will also find it interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以本质上就像如果你觉得它有趣，社交媒体上的人们也会觉得它有趣。

And one approach is just share it as it's happening, which is what I try to do.

一种方法是在事情发生时分享它，这就是我尝试做的。

Just like, "Oh hey, just learned this thing with with clock code.

就像，“哦嘿，刚刚通过时钟代码学到了这个东西。

Check it out." Or save it up for a big long post.

看看吧。”或者将其保存为一篇长篇文章。

The other interesting, I've never heard this before, of post different things to LinkedIn and Twitter.

另一个有趣的是，我以前从未听说过，在 LinkedIn 和 Twitter 上发布不同的内容。

I just copy and paste the same thing.

我只是复制并粘贴相同的内容。

I love that you do something different for the two platforms.

我喜欢你们为两个平台做一些不同的事情。

Grant Lee: I think we all kind of have intuition that there's just different audiences, right?

格兰特·李：我想我们都有一种直觉，那就是观众不同，对吧？

And so if you know that kind of fundamentally, then the question is how do you package up the story the right way so that the audience is ready to receive it?

因此，如果您从根本上了解这一点，那么问题就是如何以正确的方式包装故事，以便观众准备好接受它？

And I think this can differ by the type of creator or the founder, whoever's posting it, and of course the actual content itself.

我认为这可能会因创作者或创始人的类型、发布者的类型以及实际内容本身而有所不同。

And so for me, I'm still tweaking, but I do find that just copy and pasting from one to the other doesn't usually work.

所以对我来说，我仍在调整，但我确实发现仅仅从一个复制并粘贴到另一个通常是行不通的。

You almost need to be in the right mindset of, okay, what do I think will be more engaging on Twitter?

你几乎需要保持正确的心态，好吧，我认为 Twitter 上什么会更有吸引力？

And then what do I think will be more engaging on LinkedIn?

那么我认为 LinkedIn 上什么会更有吸引力呢？

And then test a bunch, see what actually works.

然后测试一堆，看看什么实际有效。

Go back and iterate a little bit.

返回并迭代一下。

Lenny Rachitsky: So if you had one bullet point tip for what works on Twitter versus LinkedIn, you shared maybe more tactical on Twitter, is there anything more there you can share?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，如果你有一个关于 Twitter 和 LinkedIn 上可行的要点提示，你在 Twitter 上分享了可能更多的战术，你还有什么可以分享的吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah, that's what I've found is tactical, oftentimes more contrarian on Twitter.

格兰特·李：是的，我发现这就是战术性的，在 Twitter 上通常是逆向思维。

And also I would say technical too.

我也想说技术方面的。

People really like to know, again, going back to getting into the weeds, is this something I feel like I could replicate?

人们真的很想知道，再次回到杂草中，这是我觉得我可以复制的东西吗？

And I'm not going to give you ...

而且我不会给你...

There's no credibility if you just give a blanket statement or something that feels generic.

如果你只是给出笼统的陈述或感觉很笼统的东西，那么就没有可信度。

I really need to know, if you could show me the metrics, even better.

我真的需要知道，如果你能向我展示指标，那就更好了。

I feel like that ...

我感觉就是这样...

Grant Lee: Versus LinkedIn, it's oftentimes more even just either more aspirational or aspirational or a topic or a theme that just feels relevant at that point in time.

Grant Lee：与LinkedIn相比，它通常更甚至只是要么更有抱负，要么更有抱负，要么是一个在当时感觉相关的话题或主题。

And you can just kind of make more of a broader statement.

你可以做出更广泛的声明。

It doesn't need to be as tactical.

它不需要那么战术性。

It's more like inspirational, is like, "Oh, okay, now I need to go and learn a little bit more about pricing and packaging," for instance.

它更像是鼓舞人心的，例如，“哦，好吧，现在我需要去了解更多有关定价和包装的知识”。

And that could be the sort of spark that somebody needs.

这可能正是某人需要的那种火花。

And you don't need to spell it completely out.

而且你不需要把它完全拼出来。

Part of it's also that on LinkedIn you can't really do threads.

部分原因是在 LinkedIn 上你无法真正进行话题讨论。

And so doing a super long form post isn't as practical.

因此，写一篇超长的帖子并不实际。

Maybe that changes in the future, where maybe the tactical pieces, that element might actually change.

也许这种情况在未来会发生变化，也许战术部分、这个元素可能实际上会发生变化。

Lenny Rachitsky: And last piece is you said you just block off time.

Lenny Rachitsky：最后一点是你说你只是封锁时间。

Is there a specific time of the week you do this?

您每周有特定的时间进行此操作吗？

How do you actually ...

你实际上如何...

Because everyone's like, "Oh sure, I'll block off time.

因为每个人都会说，“哦，当然，我会预留时间。

And then, I don't know, okay, but I actually got to do all this other stuff so I'm not going to use it this time or maybe next week."

然后，我不知道，好吧，但我实际上必须做所有其他事情，所以这次或下周我不会使用它。”

Grant Lee: For me, it's usually two times of the day, very first thing in the morning and last thing at night.

Grant Lee：对我来说，一天中通常有两次，早上第一件事和晚上最后一件事。

And partly it's because of kids.

部分原因是因为孩子。

It's almost like I need time where there's just zero distraction and there's no noise in the house, and so I can actually think.

这几乎就像我需要时间，零干扰，房子里没有噪音，这样我才能真正思考。

And then I think in the mornings it's about where are you finding inspiration, what are topics you're energized by?

然后我认为早上的问题是你在哪里寻找灵感，哪些主题让你充满活力？

And then I think at night it's about reflection.

然后我想在晚上这就是反思。

What are the things you actually went through that day?

那天你实际上经历了哪些事情？

You can almost pull up your calendar and be like, "Okay, I talked to X, Y and Z people.

你几乎可以打开日历说：“好吧，我和 X、Y 和 Z 人谈过。

And was there anything from those conversations that might be relevant?" That's where I write some of those things.

这些谈话中是否有任何可能相关的内容？”这就是我写一些东西的地方。

It's more of a recap of actually what happened.

这更多的是对实际发生的事情的回顾。

Lenny Rachitsky: And what helps me to not feel like this is some cringey self-promo egotistical stuff is just it's useful stuff that I've learned that ends up being helpful to people.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：让我不觉得这是一些令人尴尬的自我推销、自负的东西，因为我学到的有用的东西最终会对人们有所帮助。

And people in the comments are always just like, "Oh, that is really cool and useful.

评论中的人们总是说：“哦，这真的很酷而且很有用。

Thank you." It's not like self-promotion-

谢谢你。”这不像是自我推销——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

it's not just like, "Look how amazing I am.

这不仅仅是“看看我有多棒。

Check out my amazing products." Like, "Here's a thing I learned.

看看我令人惊叹的产品。”就像，“这是我学到的一件事。

You might find it useful."

你可能会发现它很有用。”

Grant Lee: That's exactly right.

格兰特·李：完全正确。

I think one way of thinking about it, with founder-led sales, it's always about exchange of value, right?

我认为一种思考方式是，创始人主导的销售总是与价值交换有关，对吗？

You want to be able to give the customer this feeling that they're getting an amazing product.

您希望能够给客户一种他们正在获得令人惊叹的产品的感觉。

In exchange they're going to pay you money for it.

作为交换，他们会付钱给你。

I think with founder-led marketing, it's almost this mindset of you want to give people a ton of content, maybe it's a value in the content, so you're sharing something, maybe some secret tactic or you're giving them something where inherently there's value in it, and in exchange you sort of get goodwill back.

我认为，在创始人主导的营销中，你想给人们提供大量的内容，也许这是内容的价值，所以你分享一些东西，也许是一些秘密策略，或者你给他们一些本质上有价值的东西，作为交换，你会得到善意的回报。

You're not necessarily getting money back, you get goodwill.

你不一定能拿回钱，你会得到善意。

They're going to follow you, they're going to engage with your post, they're going to tell others about it.

他们会关注你，他们会参与你的帖子，他们会告诉其他人。

And then over time you can exchange maybe some of that goodwill for actually talking about my product and announcing it and they're going to help amplify the news.

然后随着时间的推移，你可能可以用一些善意来交换实际谈论我的产品并宣布它，他们将帮助放大新闻。

And I think that's magic, where you kind of bank the goodwill for a long period of time by providing just a ton of value with no expectation of anything immediately in return.

我认为这很神奇，你可以通过提供大量价值来长期储存商誉，而不期望立即得到任何回报。

Lenny Rachitsky: The book I always point people to when they're struggling with this sort of thing and like, "Okay, I did this and no one cared, didn't do any good," is there's a book by Scott Pressfield, I think is his name, called Nobody Wants to Read Your Shit, which is exactly what is right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当人们在这类事情上挣扎时，我总是向他们指出一本书，比如“好吧，我做了这件事，但没有人在乎，没有做任何好事”，这是斯科特·普莱斯菲尔德写的一本书，我想是他的名字，叫《没人想读你的狗屎》，这正是正确的。

Nobody wants to read it.

没有人愿意读它。

The bar for people to care is very high.

人们关心的门槛非常高。

There's so much stuff to read and process.

有太多的东西需要阅读和处理。

And so this book gives you a really good lens of just like, okay, the bar is very high and nobody wants to read your shit, so you have to try really hard to make it really good.

所以这本书给了你一个非常好的视角，就像，好吧，门槛很高，没有人愿意读你的狗屎，所以你必须非常努力地让它变得真正好。

Lenny Rachitsky: We'll link to that in the show notes.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们将在演出笔记中链接到该内容。

Okay, let's come back to the growth of Gamma.

好吧，让我们回到Gamma的成长。

So we've talked about how you got your first tens of thousands of users, essentially product hunts, rethinking, onboarding, making it really magical, and then this very controversial tweet that Paul Graham commented, created some buzz.

因此，我们讨论了如何获得第一批数万用户，主要是产品搜寻、重新思考、入职，使其变得非常神奇，然后保罗·格雷厄姆评论的这条非常有争议的推文引起了一些轰动。

Let's talk about the next phase and maybe, I don't know, tell us kind of the ARR at that point through 100 million.

让我们谈谈下一阶段，也许，我不知道，请告诉我们当时的 ARR 到 1 亿。

Just broadly, what should we know?

概括地说，我们应该知道什么？

Grant Lee: So when we got to about 10 million in ARR, I think there was this feeling for me, which was we knew we needed ways to help just continue to amplify and spread the word about Gamma.

Grant Lee：所以当我们的 ARR 达到大约 1000 万时，我想我有这样的感觉，那就是我们知道我们需要一些方法来帮助继续扩大和传播有关 Gamma 的信息。

I think it was already working in terms of the organic virality was there, and so we did feel like it was time to start amplifying some of this.

我认为它已经在有机病毒式传播方面发挥了作用，所以我们确实觉得是时候开始放大其中的一些内容了。

And I think the main blocker of my mind that I started feeling was that our initial brand was holding us back.

我认为我开始感觉到的主要障碍是我们最初的品牌阻碍了我们。

And I think a lot of people will discount whether or not a rebrand is valuable.

我认为很多人都会忽视品牌重塑是否有价值。

And I think sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

我认为有时是，有时不是。

Grant Lee: For us, there's a few different things we looked at.

Grant Lee：对于我们来说，我们考虑了一些不同的事情。

So one, our initial brand was almost more of a placeholder brand because we created it the moment we incorporated the company, which was again late 2020, beginning of 2021, where we needed something so that as we built, we could at least share it with people.

因此，我们最初的品牌几乎更像是一个占位品牌，因为我们在公司成立的那一刻就创建了它，那也是 2020 年底、2021 年初，我们需要一些东西，以便在我们建立的过程中，我们至少可以与人们分享它。

We could put up a landing page and just feel like, okay, there's something here.

我们可以建立一个登陆页面，然后就感觉，好吧，这里有东西。

But we didn't invest a whole lot into it.

但我们并没有投入太多。

And so it was pretty limited in sort of what I call the DNA of the brand.

因此，我所说的品牌 DNA 非常有限。

There wasn't that many ...

没有那么多...

The art direction was very limited in scope.

艺术指导的范围非常有限。

There wasn't much when it came to voice and tone.

声音和语气方面没有太多内容。

Grant Lee: And so it was something that we knew was good enough to start, but it wasn't scalable.

Grant Lee：我们知道这是一个足够好的开始，但它无法扩展。

And when I think about something that could be scalable, it's almost like you can take the ingredients of a brand and replicate it a ton, this DNA is something where you can imagine creating tons of content around and all feeling pretty cohesive.

当我想到一些可以扩展的东西时，它几乎就像你可以采用一个品牌的成分并大量复制它，这种 DNA 是你可以想象创建大量内容的东西，并且所有内容都感觉非常有凝聚力。

And I think that needs to be done by design.

我认为这需要通过设计来完成。

You're really being thoughtful about every single element.

你真的对每一个元素都考虑得很周到。

Like what is the art direction you want to go with?

比如你想要的艺术方向是什么？

What is the voice and tone?

声音和语气是什么？

Such that as you're creating thousands of pieces of copy, it all feels pretty cohesive.

这样，当您创建数千份副本时，一切都感觉非常有凝聚力。

Grant Lee: And so we went back to the drawing board and we spent many months rethinking what would be the brand, what is this vision that we have longer term?

Grant Lee：所以我们回到绘图板，花了好几个月的时间重新思考品牌是什么，我们的长期愿景是什么？

Our creative director internally partner with Smith & Diction, an amazing agency that has helped folks like Perplexity also do their rebrand or their initial brand.

我们的创意总监与 Smith & Diction 进行内部合作，这是一家出色的机构，帮助像 Perplexity 这样的人进行品牌重塑或初始品牌塑造。

And we many months just really trying to craft what we think is the core DNA of the brand, and doing so in a way that we could replicate it as much as possible.

几个月来，我们一直在努力打造我们认为的品牌核心 DNA，并以尽可能复制的方式做到这一点。

Grant Lee: Replication piece of it comes into play, because as you start scaling you're going to have to create a ton of content, your own content on social media, ads for performance marketing, assets for influencers to be able to use and showcase in their content.

Grant Lee：复制部分开始发挥作用，因为当你开始扩展时，你将不得不创建大量内容，社交媒体上你自己的内容，效果营销广告，影响者能够在其内容中使用和展示的资产。

And so you're going from tiny pieces of content to all of a sudden every week we're testing thousands of pieces of creative.

所以你会从很小的内容突然变成每周我们都会测试数千个创意。

And you cannot do that if you don't feel confident that as you're replicating, you have that sort of cohesive feel.

如果你在复制过程中没有那种有凝聚力的感觉，那么你就无法做到这一点。

So for us that we realized it was going to be necessary and it's why we invested so much.

所以对我们来说，我们意识到这是必要的，这就是我们投资如此多的原因。

It ended up being way more expensive, way more time consuming than I would've imagined.

结果比我想象的要贵得多，而且要花更多的时间。

But I think coming on the other side of it being the right investment, feeling that that was the right time to do it.

但我认为从另一方面来说这是正确的投资，感觉那是正确的时机。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how many things you did that feel like this will not work out.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你做了很多感觉不会成功的事情。

Building a startup within the presentation space, doing a whole rebrand in the middle of scaling, also just reworking the entire product after you launched and just rethinking the whole thing.

在演示空间内建立一家初创公司，在扩展过程中进行整个品牌重塑，在推出后重新设计整个产品并重新思考整个事情。

All these things and everyone's always like, "No, this is not how we win." And interestingly, worked out for you guys.

所有这些事情，每个人总是说，“不，这不是我们获胜的方式。”有趣的是，为你们锻炼了。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to the brand stuff, but one of the most interesting ways you guys grew early on was influencer marketing, which a lot of people hear about and talk about.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到品牌的话题，但是你们早期成长的最有趣的方式之一是有影响力的营销，很多人都听说过并谈论过。

I haven't heard much of how to actually do this and what actually works.

我还没有听说过如何实际做到这一点以及什么实际有效。

Talk about that as a broad growth lever for you guys.

谈论这对你们来说是一个广泛的增长杠杆。

And then I want to get into just what tools did you use, who actually was really helpful there, thing like that.

然后我想了解一下您使用了哪些工具，谁实际上在那里提供了帮助，诸如此类。

So yeah, just give us the big picture.

所以，是的，请给我们一个大局。

Grant Lee: Yeah.

格兰特·李：是的。

I think a lot of founders assume that with influencer marketing it's almost like turnkey.

我认为很多创始人认为，通过影响者营销，它几乎就像交钥匙工程一样。

You set aside a budget, you find some creators, you figure out the right campaign or the right moment of time to do it and it's all done, you're ready to go.

你留出预算，找到一些创作者，找出合适的广告活动或合适的时间来做这件事，一切都完成了，你就可以开始了。

And I think the reality is, going back to this founder-led marketing mindset is like, well, you're going to set yourself up for success if you actually are super involved in that entire process.

我认为现实是，回到创始人主导的营销思维就像，好吧，如果你真的超级参与整个过程，你将为自己的成功做好准备。

So for us, what this meant was all the initial influencers I onboarded manually myself.

所以对我们来说，这意味着我自己手动加入的所有最初的影响者。

I would jump on a call with each one of them so that they understood what Gamma represented, how to use the product.

我会立即与他们每一个人通电话，以便他们了解 Gamma 代表什么以及如何使用该产品。

You want to be able to have them tell your story but in their voice, right?

您希望他们能够用他们的声音讲述您的故事，对吧？

And they can't do that if you're not willing to put in that investment.

如果你不愿意投入这项投资，他们就无法做到这一点。

Grant Lee: And so we would spend a lot of time going through ...

格兰特·李：所以我们会花很多时间去经历......

It wasn't my job to tell them how to pitch Gamma, but it was my job to make sure that they understood what Gamma was as a product.

我的工作不是告诉他们如何推销 Gamma，但我的工作是确保他们了解 Gamma 作为一种产品是什么。

And so we'd spend a lot of time, like me just walking through the product, them asking questions, us just kind of brainstorming what could the hooks be, and me just giving them some initial feedback and saying, "Oh yeah, this one, I love that.

所以我们会花很多时间，就像我只是浏览产品，他们提出问题，我们只是集思广益可能会是什么，而我只是给他们一些初步反馈并说，“哦，是的，这个，我喜欢那个。

I figure it's going to work great for your audience." But not trying to be super prescriptive.

我认为这对你的观众来说非常有用。”但并不试图变得超级规范。

And working with a ton of micro influencers, people that don't have massive followings but are committed to ...

与大量的微型影响者合作，这些人没有大量的追随者，但致力于……

Going back to giving value to your audience.

回到为观众提供价值的问题上来。

They're committed to giving value to their audiences.

他们致力于为观众提供价值。

They want to be able to showcase tools that actually they would use or they are using.

他们希望能够展示他们实际会使用或正在使用的工具。

And how do you do that in an authentic way?

你如何以真实的方式做到这一点？

You can't really fake that.

你真的不能假装这一点。

You really need to spend the time doing that.

你确实需要花时间去做这件事。

Grant Lee: And just like you would onboard a customer, you onboard an influencer the same way.

Grant Lee：就像您吸引客户一样，您也以同样的方式吸引有影响力的人。

You want them to be an extension of your team.

您希望他们成为您团队的延伸。

And I think they can feel whether or not you're willing to put in the work.

我认为他们可以感觉到你是否愿意投入工作。

And if you're not, then they're just going to treat it like any other project, ship it and be done with it.

如果你不这样做，那么他们就会像对待任何其他项目一样对待它，交付它并完成它。

If you invest in that relationship, guess what?

如果你投资于这种关系，你猜怎么着？

They'll be back to actually post about you again.

他们会再次回来发布有关您的信息。

And you're all of a sudden having this sort of this relationship that actually you can build over time.

你们突然间就拥有了这种关系，而且实际上可以随着时间的推移而建立起来。

I think that's really where the magic is.

我认为这才是真正的魔力所在。

Too many people discount that initial piece.

太多人低估了最初的作品。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太棒了。

To be clear, influencer marketing, essentially a person with a following on say TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, whatever, gets paid in some way to promote your product.

需要明确的是，影响者营销，本质上是在 TikTok、Instagram、Twitter、LinkedIn 等上拥有追随者的人，以某种方式获得报酬来推广你的产品。

That's the simple way to understand influencer marketing, yeah?

这就是理解影响者营销的简单方法，是吗？

Grant Lee: Yes, that's definitely the simple way.

Grant Lee：是的，这绝对是最简单的方法。

And I'd say there's definitely different levels.

我想说肯定有不同的级别。

I think a lot of people think influencer marketing and they'll think these big trendy creators, people that have a million followers for instance.

我认为很多人都会想到影响者营销，他们会想到这些大的时尚创造者，例如拥有一百万粉丝的人。

And the idea is that, okay, we're going to carve out a really big budget, we're going to choose five or six that we feel like are really the tastemakers in the space and put all of our money into just having them talk about our product.

我们的想法是，好吧，我们将制定一个非常大的预算，我们将选择五到六个我们认为真正是该领域的时尚引领者的人，并将我们所有的钱投入到让他们谈论我们的产品上。

And I think usually this is kind of the wrong approach.

我认为这通常是错误的做法。

Because many of them, they do have massive audiences.

因为他们中的许多人确实拥有大量的观众。

And for you, you basically give them a script to read and it immediately feels like an ad.

对于你来说，你基本上给他们一个脚本来阅读，它立即感觉就像一个广告。

That product is not connected really to them in any way.

该产品与他们没有任何联系。

It's just something that they're ...

这只是他们...

For this week they happen to be working with you and then they move on with their life.

这周他们碰巧和你一起工作，然后他们就继续他们的生活。

And it never feels organic or authentic and you wasted a ton of money doing so.

而且它永远不会给人有机或真实的感觉，而且你这样做还浪费了很多钱。

Grant Lee: I think you're much better doing the hard thing, which is hard to scale, but it's finding the thousands of micro influencers that have an audience where your product maybe is actually useful.

Grant Lee：我认为你最好做困难的事情，这很难扩大规模，但它是找到成千上万的微型影响者，他们拥有你的产品可能真正有用的受众。

And for instance, for us early on it'd be educators, people that for them, part of their job is creating slides every day because they need to engage their students.

例如，对我们来说，早期是教育工作者，对他们来说，他们工作的一部分就是每天制作幻灯片，因为他们需要吸引学生。

And so for them, having a tool that actually saved them a ton of time was something they love talking about.

因此，对于他们来说，拥有一个真正为他们节省大量时间的工具是他们喜欢谈论的事情。

And if you can find some of these pockets, we call them echo chambers, where if you find a pocket like educators, teachers love telling other teachers about products they love using.

如果你能找到其中一些口袋，我们称之为回声室，如果你找到像教育工作者这样的口袋，老师们喜欢告诉其他老师他们喜欢使用的产品。

During summer break, they all come together and talk about, "Okay, what are the things that are going to actually improve my job next school season?" And obviously during this AI wave, a lot of those have been, "Okay, what are the AI tools that just save me a ton of time?"

暑假期间，他们都会聚在一起讨论：“好吧，下个学季哪些事情能够真正改善我的工作？”显然，在这次人工智能浪潮中，很多人都在问，“好吧，哪些人工智能工具可以节省我大量时间？”

Grant Lee: And so if you can start actually tapping into these pockets of echo chambers, that's even better.

格兰特·李：所以如果你能开始真正利用这些回声室，那就更好了。

It doesn't have to be this flashy, well-known influencer.

它不一定是这位浮华的知名影响者。

It's actually just this person that has an audience where people really trust what they say.

事实上，只有这个人拥有一群真正相信他所说的话的听众。

And that's amazing.

这太棒了。

That ends up becoming this sort of wildfire that can spread really, really fast.

这最终会变成野火，蔓延得非常非常快。

Lenny Rachitsky: And what's the dollar amount these folks get?

Lenny Rachitsky：这些人得到的金额是多少？

It's like a few hundred bucks, a few thousand bucks, something like that?

好像是几百块，几千块之类的？

Grant Lee: Yeah, few hundred to low thousands, low single digit thousands.

Grant Lee：是的，几百到几千，低个位数几千。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you find these folks?

Lenny Rachitsky：你是如何找到这些人的？

Is there tools that you use?

有你使用的工具吗？

Is it just like a bunch of manual searching and looking?

是不是就像一堆手动搜索和查找？

Grant Lee: Yeah, in the very beginning it was all manual, a lot of cold outreach.

格兰特·李：是的，一开始都是手动的，大量的冷冰冰的外展活动。

And then we ended up finding a couple of different things.

然后我们最终发现了一些不同的东西。

One is a platform, a YC company called 1stCollab.

一个是一个平台，一家YC公司，叫做1stCollab。

That has been amazing.

这太棒了。

They basically do all of the automated outbound for you.

他们基本上为您完成所有自动出站工作。

Plus you can help them actually create profiles or personas of different creators, so for instance educators being one, and then they'll go out and actually, based on that profile, find all the right creators for you.

另外，您可以帮助他们实际创建不同创作者的个人资料或角色，例如教育工作者就是其中之一，然后他们会出去，实际上根据该个人资料，找到所有适合您的创作者。

So they've been amazing, really great to work with.

所以他们非常棒，和他们一起工作真的很棒。

Grant Lee: And then we've also found small agencies to also help kind of augment that.

Grant Lee：然后我们还找到了一些小型机构来帮助增强这一点。

I look for agencies that are super young and hungry.

我寻找非常年轻且充满渴望的机构。

These are people that they're native to social media and so they really understand it.

这些人是社交媒体的本地人，所以他们真正理解社交媒体。

And they can really be able to bring in creators that are great to work with.

他们确实能够引进非常适合合作的创作者。

And I think part of it is if you find creators that are great to work with, everything else becomes easy.

我认为部分原因是，如果你找到了非常适合合作的创作者，其他一切都会变得很容易。

So we've had a few, one is AKG Media, actually out in the UK, and they've been fantastic to work with as well.

我们已经有了一些合作伙伴，其中之一是 AKG Media，实际上是在英国，与他们合作也非常愉快。

So you kind of find a few different things, either agencies or platforms that can help you actually scale this thing up.

所以你会找到一些不同的东西，无论是机构还是平台，都可以帮助你真正扩大规模。

Lenny Rachitsky: And when they post, they're generally transparent about this is a paid promotion, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：当他们发帖时，他们通常会透明地知道这是付费促销，对吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: They're not just pretending, "I found this tool and I love it"?

Lenny Rachitsky：他们不只是假装“我找到了这个工具并且我喜欢它”？

Cool.

凉爽的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

And so how much impact did this lever of influencer marketing have on your growth, say from 10 to 100?

那么这种影响力营销杠杆对您的成长有多大影响，比如从 10 到 100？

Is this the biggest lever of growth other than just word-of-mouth, people continue to share it?

这是除了口碑、人们持续分享之外最大的增长杠杆吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah, so word-of-mouth has definitely been the biggest.

Grant Lee：是的，所以口碑肯定是最重要的。

So we look at all new subscriber growth, over 50% of this is word-of-mouth.

因此，我们观察所有新用户的增长，其中超过 50% 是通过口碑传播的。

It's either people searching direct, coming direct, entering Gamma.op, or going through search and typing in Gamma, like a branded keyword search, where they're looking for Gamma, they've heard about Gamma.

人们要么直接搜索，直接进入 Gamma.op，要么进行搜索并输入 Gamma，就像品牌关键字搜索一样，他们在寻找 Gamma，他们听说过 Gamma。

But I think for us, social media and influencers specifically has always been an amplifier.

但我认为对我们来说，社交媒体和影响者一直是一个放大器。

So every time we invest in influencer marketing, we actually see word-of-mouth increase even more.

因此，每次我们投资影响者营销时，我们实际上都会看到口碑的增加更多。

And it's always like you can just see it.

而且总是就像你能看到它一样。

Basically anytime you spend a little bit of money, you start seeing people come through influencer, the word-of-mouth factor actually will get another 1.5 additional users on top of that, which has been really interesting to see.

基本上，只要你花一点钱，你就会开始看到人们通过影响者而来，口碑因素实际上会额外增加 1.5 个用户，这真的很有趣。

Grant Lee: And I think part of this is just recognizing that ...

格兰特·李：我认为部分原因是认识到......

And I think we kind of understand it, but with influencer marketing, why it's so effective, we all know Dunbar's number, which is have this number of 150 people that you call kind of your network.

我想我们有点理解这一点，但是对于有影响力的营销，为什么它如此有效，我们都知道邓巴的数字，即拥有 150 人，你称之为你的网络。

And your network you trust more than the average stranger down the street.

你比街上的普通陌生人更信任你的网络。

If they tell you something, they recommend something, there is a sort of halo effect, you learn to trust them.

如果他们告诉你一些事情，他们推荐一些东西，就会有一种光环效应，你就会学会信任他们。

A lot of these influencers, the reason why they share so much about their lives is because they want to be in your network.

很多有影响力的人之所以分享这么多自己的生活，是因为他们想加入你的网络。

They want you to feel super close.

他们希望你感觉超级亲密。

And once you feel super close, you trust them to actually share things that are going to be useful.

一旦你感觉非常亲密，你就会相信他们会真正分享有用的东西。

Grant Lee: And so when they recommend a tool, there is a sort of halo effect, where it doesn't feel like it's coming from a stranger, it feels like it's coming from a friend.

Grant Lee：所以当他们推荐一种工具时，会产生一种光环效应，感觉不是来自陌生人，而是来自朋友。

And that's where every time we've spent money there you actually see this amplifications, like, "Okay, that's kind of interesting." You wouldn't necessarily expect that.

这就是每次我们在那里花钱时，你实际上会看到这种放大，就像，“好吧，这有点有趣。”你不一定会想到这一点。

But for us it's been this sort of amplifier from the very beginning.

但对我们来说，从一开始就是这种放大器。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is so fun to hear about.

Lenny Rachitsky：听到这个消息真是太有趣了。

I've not heard this level of detail on how influencer marketing works and how to make it work.

我还没有听说过关于影响者营销如何运作以及如何使其发挥作用的如此详细的信息。

A few more questions here.

这里还有几个问题。

So you said there's maybe a few thousand people you ended up working with, roughly, influencers?

所以你说你最终可能和几千人一起工作，大概是有影响力的人？

Grant Lee: Over the course of a year.

格兰特·李：一年多了。

It wasn't all in the same time.

这一切并不是在同一时间发生的。

Basically in the beginning you do ...

基本上一开始你会...

In the very, very beginning we had a small budget.

一开始我们的预算很小。

It was like 20 creators a month.

大约每个月有 20 个创作者。

And then you start increasing that to like 50, then 100.

然后你开始增加到 50，然后是 100。

We're definitely not fully scaled at this point, but I could easily see a point where you're working with many, many creators every single month.

目前我们肯定还没有完全扩展，但我可以很容易地看到每个月都会与很多很多创作者合作。

And that gives you a chance to actually test a variety of, again, content hooks, ways to talk about the product, value props.

这让你有机会实际测试各种内容挂钩、谈论产品的方式、价值道具。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And you said the key here is you spend time with every one of these creators, influencers early on to help make sure they understand what you're doing and get excited about it.

你说这里的关键是你尽早花时间与每一位创作者、有影响力的人相处，以帮助确保他们理解你在做什么并对此感到兴奋。

It isn't just like a thing you outsource.

这不仅仅是你外包的事情。

Grant Lee: I think there's a lot of value there.

Grant Lee：我认为那里有很多价值。

It's again hard to quantify.

这又很难量化。

And most founders probably feel like they're too busy to allocate that time.

大多数创始人可能觉得他们太忙了，无法分配这些时间。

But I think it was a good investment.

但我认为这是一项很好的投资。

Because going back to you want them to feel like an extension of your team.

因为回到你身边希望他们感觉像是你团队的延伸。

They're not going to feel like an extension of your team if, one, they've never met you, and two, you've never even told them really how the product works.

如果一是他们从未见过你，二是你甚至从未真正告诉过他们产品的工作原理，那么他们就不会觉得自己是你团队的延伸。

They're forced to go to your website to figure it all out.

他们被迫访问您的网站来弄清楚这一切。

Those are going to be not a whole lot of love that they're feeling from the outset.

这些不会是他们从一开始就感受到的大量爱。

Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing is quality over quantity, especially when you're getting started.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听到的是质量而不是数量，尤其是当你刚刚开始时。

And then there's this other piece of niche which I think is very counterintuitive.

然后还有另一个我认为非常违反直觉的利基市场。

Instead of going to large influencers with a huge audience, it's good with folks that are small.

与其去找拥有大量受众的大影响者，不如找小人物。

What's like a audience size roughly that you think is ideal for this, or what niche just means?

您认为最理想的受众规模是多少，或者利基市场意味着什么？

Grant Lee: Honestly, I don't think there's a minimum, because even with platforms like TikTok, they oftentimes are giving you credit for a brand new account.

Grant Lee：老实说，我不认为有最低限度，因为即使有像 TikTok 这样的平台，他们也经常会给你一个全新帐户的信用。

They want to help amplify that new account, because obviously if they're thinking from a creator perspective, if that new creator feels like, "Oh, coming to TikTok is a massive win for me," they're going to be more invested in it.

他们希望帮助扩大这个新帐户，因为显然，如果他们从创作者的角度思考，如果新创作者感觉“哦，来到 TikTok 对我来说是一个巨大的胜利”，他们就会对此投入更多。

And so there really isn't a minimum.

所以确实没有最低限度。

A lot of these platforms are trying to shift to kind of the same thing, where they really reward new creators on the platform.

许多这样的平台都在尝试转向同样的事情，他们真正奖励平台上的新创作者。

And so you could have a small audience, it doesn't really matter.

所以你的观众可能很小，这并不重要。

You could have 10,000 followers, that's also good.

你可以有 10,000 个关注者，那也很好。

I think as long as the content feels, again, engaging, authentic to the people you're talking to I think it has a really good chance of actually taking off.

我认为，只要内容再次让与你交谈的人感到有吸引力、真实，我认为它就有很大的机会真正起飞。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a good point with TikTok, where it's not follower related, if it's useful and people find it clickable or whatever, likable, viewable, the algorithm will spread it to a lot of people.

Lenny Rachitsky：这对于 TikTok 来说是一个很好的观点，它与关注者无关，如果它有用并且人们发现它可点击或其他任何东西，讨人喜欢，可查看，算法会将其传播给很多人。

Such a good point.

这是一个很好的观点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, there's a couple more points you made in the tweet that I want to make sure we highlight.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，您在推文中还提出了一些我想强调的观点。

So one is you made this point that 90% of your reach in influencer marketing comes from less than 10% of people.

因此，您提出了这一点，即您在影响者营销中 90% 的影响力来自不到 10% 的人。

Is there anything there that you think is important for people to hear?

您认为有什么内容对人们来说很重要吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah, I mean this just goes back to it's hard to know where that 10% is going to come from.

Grant Lee：是的，我的意思是这又回到了很难知道那 10% 会从哪里来的问题。

So you kind of just have to cast a super wide net.

所以你只需要撒一张超广的网。

You can sort of, I think try to, again, trick yourself into thinking you're great at picking creators or you're great at telling them how to post about your stuff.

我认为，你可以再次尝试欺骗自己，让自己认为你很擅长挑选创作者，或者你很擅长告诉他们如何发布你的东西。

But the reality is, even for me, I could never guess.

但现实是，即使对我来说，我也无法猜测。

I kind of had some idea, but I just had to make sure that I was meeting enough creators broadly such that when you meet enough, they're all posting, there's some pocket that end up just taking off.

我有点想法，但我必须确保我广泛地会见了足够多的创作者，这样当你会面足够多时，他们都会发帖，最终会有一些口袋开始腾飞。

And I was not a good predictor of that.

我对此并不是一个很好的预测者。

I was not smart enough to actually know which ones would take off.

我不够聪明，无法真正知道哪些会起飞。

I just knew that we had to play the sort of numbers game to make it work.

我只知道我们必须玩某种数字游戏才能使其发挥作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: So one of your tips here is people fail often in this because they start too small or their budget's a little too small.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你的建议之一是，人们经常在这方面失败，因为他们的起点太小，或者他们的预算有点太小。

You recommend 10,000 to 20,000 a month over six months and just trying this.

您建议在六个月内每月 10,000 到 20,000 个，然后尝试一下。

It sounds like you're doing like 20 to 30 creators a month.

听起来您每个月大约有 20 到 30 个创作者。

Is that the right framework for how to just start this thing and explore?

这是如何开始并探索这件事的正确框架吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah, totally.

格兰特·李：是的，完全可以。

And I'd say it's not just that the budget's too small, it would be that they put all their eggs in one basket.

我想说，这不仅仅是预算太少，而是他们把所有鸡蛋放在一个篮子里。

So you can also easily blow that 20 K on just one bigger influencer and then be like, "Oh, that didn't work, so I'm going to try it again.

因此，你也可以轻松地将 20 K 花在一位更大的影响者身上，然后说：“哦，那不起作用，所以我要再试一次。

That didn't work.

那行不通。

Okay, I give up." And I think rather than doing that, you should be like, "Okay, that 20 K, I could actually probably work with 40 different influencers and see what actually works." And across the 40, I'm going to try to find a variety of personas, a variety of use cases, spend a lot of time with them, and then actually see what's working, what's not.

好吧，我放弃了。”我认为，你不应该这样做，而应该这样说：“好吧，那 20 K，我实际上可以与 40 个不同的影响者合作，看看什么实际有效。”在这 40 个人中，我将尝试找到各种角色、各种用例，花大量时间与他们相处，然后实际看看哪些有效，哪些无效。

Grant Lee: And then next month take those learnings and double down.

格兰特·李：然后下个月将这些经验教训加倍努力。

If educators are working, go with educators.

如果教育工作者在工作，就与教育工作者一起工作。

If consultants are working, go with consultants, find more consultants, there's going to be more there.

如果顾问在工作，就和顾问一起去，找到更多的顾问，那里就会有更多的顾问。

I think that's where the putting all your eggs in one basket is just probably the surest way to fail, because you're going to miss a ton and it's going to take you way too long to learn and you're going to come to the conclusion that it's a waste of time.

我认为，把所有鸡蛋放在一个篮子里可能是最容易失败的方式，因为你会错过很多东西，而且会花费你很长时间来学习，而且你会得出这样的结论：这是浪费时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like this whole podcast conversation could be just about this one lever.

Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得整个播客对话可能只是关于这一杠杆。

So much I want to keep talking about, but there's more questions here because this is so useful and interesting.

我想继续谈论这么多，但这里还有更多问题，因为这非常有用且有趣。

You had this line in your tweet about how reality is not an accident and that this approach is how you figure out what actually works.

你在推文中提到了现实并非偶然，这种方法可以帮助你找出真正有效的方法。

And then once you do that, then you start leading into that messaging.

一旦你这样做了，你就开始引导消息传递。

Talk about that.

谈谈那个。

Grant Lee: This goes back to obviously if you're testing a bunch, you'll finally find that sort of post or set of posts that actually go viral.

Grant Lee：这显然可以追溯到如果你正在测试一堆，你最终会发现那种帖子或一组帖子实际上会像病毒一样传播。

Going back to just the fundamentals, like make it easy for your influencers to be able to tell your story in their voice.

回到基本原理，比如让你的影响者能够轻松地用他们的声音讲述你的故事。

One thing we did, we open sourced basically our entire brand.

我们做了一件事，我们基本上开源了我们的整个品牌。

We have Brand.gamma.app, which is everything about our brand, our voice and tone, our art direction, what we use in mid-journey to create the sort of art direction that we have so that a creator can do the same, right?

我们有 Brand.gamma.app，它是关于我们的品牌、我们的声音和语气、我们的艺术方向的一切，我们在旅程中使用什么来创建我们拥有的艺术方向，以便创作者可以做同样的事情，对吗？

And they can actually just copy all of that so that they don't have to reinvent the wheel every time they're trying to post about Gamma.

他们实际上可以复制所有这些内容，这样他们就不必每次尝试发布有关 Gamma 的内容时都重新发明轮子。

They have all of that.

他们拥有这一切。

Grant Lee: And I think going back to this notion of just make it dead simple for them, remove friction.

格兰特·李：我认为回到这个概念，让事情对他们来说变得非常简单，消除摩擦。

They already have enough on their plate to have to figure out.

他们已经有足够多的事情需要解决。

Don't make it any harder than it is.

不要让它变得比原来更难。

And if you remove friction, then it's like, oh, you get into this rhythm of adding creators is easy, having them post is easy, reviewing what's working, what's not is easy.

如果你消除了摩擦，那么就像，哦，你进入这种添加创作者的节奏很容易，让他们发帖很容易，审查哪些有效，哪些无效也很容易。

And if you're able to do that relentlessly over many, many months, then all of a sudden hitting the sort of viral post is easy because you're going to have enough bats there where some are actually going to pop off.

如果你能够在很多很多个月内坚持不懈地做到这一点，那么突然间点击病毒式帖子就很容易了，因为你将有足够的蝙蝠在那里，其中一些实际上会突然出现。

But you only can get there after you've done all the hard work before that to remove friction from the process.

但只有在完成之前的所有艰苦工作以消除过程中的摩擦之后，您才能到达那里。

And feeling like it's almost like a well-oiled machine at that point.

那时感觉它几乎就像一台运转良好的机器。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a platform you find most helpful for the stuff you guys are doing?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为有一个平台对你们正在做的事情最有帮助吗？

Is it like TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn, something else?

是像 TikTok、Instagram、LinkedIn 还是其他应用程序？

Grant Lee: Yeah, I mean this is one where for us we cast a pretty wide net too.

格兰特·李：是的，我的意思是，我们也撒下了一张相当广泛的网。

But it's very clear, LinkedIn, the conversion rates are just substantially higher.

但很明显，LinkedIn 的转化率要高得多。

They're 4X, maybe 5X higher than other platforms.

它们比其他平台高 4 倍，也许 5 倍。

And I think a lot of people are probably still sleeping on LinkedIn, frankly.

坦白说，我认为很多人可能还在 LinkedIn 上睡觉。

And so it's one where some of the influencers there or creators there can be a little bit more costly.

因此，那里的一些影响者或创造者的成本可能会更高一些。

But if you can eventually be more targeted knowing that, hey, this type of creator is pretty impactful for our product, then working with them, it's just like, "Oh, that's great." The conversion rates are just so strong and it really feels like we're just getting started there.

但如果你最终能够更有针对性地知道，嘿，这种类型的创作者对我们的产品非常有影响力，那么与他们合作，就像，“哦，那太棒了。”转化率非常高，感觉我们才刚刚开始。

Grant Lee: So if in the beginning you're not sure, it's always helpful to cast a pretty wide net.

Grant Lee：所以，如果一开始你不确定，撒一个相当大的网总是有帮助的。

And then similar to just the influencer strategy, like test and iterate, you'll figure out ...

然后类似于影响者策略，比如测试和迭代，你会发现......

Many of these things will follow a power law.

其中许多事情都遵循幂律。

So it's like one or two channels are going to be the most important for you.

因此，一两个渠道对您来说将是最重要的。

For instance, Twitter for us hasn't been that impactful.

例如，Twitter 对我们来说并没有那么有影响力。

And I think for tools like Notion, they've been really, really impactful.

我认为对于像 Notion 这样的工具来说，它们真的非常有影响力。

You're not going to really know, and so just test and then double down on the ones that really move the needle for your product.

你不会真正知道，所以只需测试，然后加倍努力那些真正为你的产品带来推动的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that many people listening now are like, "Wait, LinkedIn posts are sponsored sometimes?

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为现在很多人都会说，“等等，LinkedIn 的帖子有时会受到赞助？

I didn't know that." How do you know if it's a sponsored post?

我不知道这一点。”您如何知道它是否是赞助帖子？

Is it like a #sponsored or something like that?

是不是像#赞助之类的？

How do they communicate this?

他们如何传达这一点？

Grant Lee: Usually they'll say they're a partner or yeah, basically it is sponsored in some form, or they'll #ad or something along those lines.

Grant Lee：通常他们会说他们是合作伙伴，或者是的，基本上是以某种形式赞助的，或者他们会说#ad 或类似的东西。

So that's probably the way you'll see it the most.

所以这可能是您最常看到的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

By the way, I don't do this sort of stuff.

顺便说一句，我不做这种事。

Have you ever seen me on LinkedIn?

你在 LinkedIn 上见过我吗？

I'm not doing any paid stuff.

我不做任何有偿的事情。

It's just so people know.

这只是人们知道的而已。

And I don't plan to do that.

我不打算这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Miro.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Miro 为您带来。

Every day, new headlines are scaring us about all the ways that AI is coming for our jobs, creating a lot of anxiety and fear.

每天，新的头条新闻都让我们害怕人工智能会以各种方式取代我们的工作，造成很多焦虑和恐惧。

But a recent survey for Miro tells a different story.

但最近对米罗的一项调查却讲述了一个不同的故事。

76% of people believe that AI can benefit their role, but over 50% of people struggle to know when to use it.

76% 的人相信人工智能可以让他们的角色受益，但超过 50% 的人很难知道何时使用它。

Enter Miro's Innovation Workspace, an intelligent platform that brings people and AI together in a shared space to get great work done.

进入 Miro 的创新工作空间，这是一个智能平台，它将人和人工智能聚集在一个共享空间中，以完成出色的工作。

Miro has been empowering teams to transform bold ideas into the next big thing for over a decade.

十多年来，Miro 一直致力于帮助团队将大胆的想法转化为下一件大事。

Today, they're at the forefront of bringing products to market even faster by unleashing the combined power of AI and human potential.

如今，他们处于领先地位，通过释放人工智能和人类潜力的综合力量，更快地将产品推向市场。

Guests of this podcast often share Miro templates.

该播客的嘉宾经常分享 Miro 模板。

I use it all the time to brainstorm ideas with my team-

我一直用它与我的团队集思广益 -

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

Often share Miro templates.

经常分享 Miro 模板。

I use it all the time to brainstorm ideas with my team.

我一直用它与我的团队集思广益。

Teams especially can work with Miro AI to turn unstructured data, like sticky notes or screenshots, into usable diagrams, product briefs, data tables, and prototypes in minutes.

团队尤其可以与 Miro AI 合作，在几分钟内将便签或屏幕截图等非结构化数据转换为可用的图表、产品简介、数据表和原型。

You don't have to be an AI master or to toggle yet another tool.

您不必成为人工智能大师或切换另一种工具。

The work you're already doing in Miro's Canvas is the prompt.

您已经在 Miro's Canvas 中所做的工作就是提示。

Help your teams get great work done with Miro.

使用 Miro 帮助您的团队出色地完成工作。

Check it out at miro.com/Lenny.

请访问 miro.com/Lenny 进行查看。

That's M-I-R-O .com/Lenny.

那是 M-I-R-O .com/Lenny。

Let's come back to this brand point.

让我们回到这个品牌点。

So, one of your big lessons is invest in brand before you go heavy into hit paid ads and performance marketing.

因此，您的重要教训之一是在大量投入热门付费广告和效果营销之前对品牌进行投资。

I imagine you do some ads at this point on Facebook and Google and things like that.

我想你此时会在 Facebook 和 Google 之类的网站上做一些广告。

Grant Lee: Yeah, we run ads performance marketing.

Grant Lee：是的，我们进行广告效果营销。

I think there's this stigma that brand marketing and performance marketing are sort of at odds with each other.

我认为品牌营销和效果营销是相互矛盾的。

I very much follow the sort of thought that brand marketing is performance marketing.

我非常认同品牌营销就是效果营销的观点。

Everything is some form of performance marketing.

一切都是某种形式的效果营销。

It just might not be as attributable, so the ability to actually map back to every single dollar spent is a little bit harder, but it doesn't mean that it's not impactful.

它只是可能没有那么可归因，因此实际映射到所花费的每一美元的能力有点困难，但这并不意味着它没有影响力。

Grant Lee: And I think as a company scales, you have to invest in both, and ideally they work really, really well together.

Grant Lee：我认为，随着公司规模的扩大，你必须对两者进行投资，理想情况下，它们能够真正、非常良好地协同工作。

The more you invest in brand marketing, it strengthens your performance marketing.

您在品牌营销上的投资越多，它就会增强您的绩效营销。

This goes back to having enough creative to even test.

这可以追溯到拥有足够的创意来进行测试。

If you're too limited in scope and you don't have a brand, you feel like you can actually amplify your handicapping, your ability to actually have a good performance marketing program.

如果你的范围太有限并且没有品牌，你会觉得你实际上可以放大你的障碍，你实际上有能力拥有良好的绩效营销计划。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that heuristic of how do you know if you are under invested in brand is if you're limited in the number of ideas you can try in performance marketing.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这样的启发式方法：你如何知道你对品牌的投资是否不足，即你在效果营销中可以尝试的想法数量是否有限。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is your design system just...

Lenny Rachitsky：你的设计系统只是......

Is everyone having to redesign things from scratch and come up with all these frameworks every time they run an ad?

每个人每次投放广告时都必须从头开始重新设计并提出所有这些框架吗？

Grant Lee: Exactly.

格兰特·李：没错。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

Basically you kind of have a feeling for, "If I were to scale this up to a thousand pieces of creative, would it still feel cohesive or is it kind of all over the place?" And if it feels like it's all over the place, then you kind of have to go back to the drawing board.

基本上你会有一种感觉，“如果我把它扩大到一千件创意，它是否仍然有凝聚力，或者是否有点到处都是？”如果感觉好像到处都是，那么你就必须回到绘图板了。

Lenny Rachitsky: You said when you talked about the rebrand, that it took a lot longer than you expected, that it was more expensive than you expected.

Lenny Rachitsky：当您谈到品牌重塑时，您说过，花费的时间比您预期的要长得多，而且比您预期的更昂贵。

That's the fear, I think, everyone has when they hear this like, "Oh, I don't have time for a rebrand." I also imagine, because your product is so visual, that it makes more sense to invest there and to spend the time and money.

我想，这就是每个人听到这样的话时都会感到的恐惧，“哦，我没有时间重塑品牌。”我还想，因为你的产品是如此视觉化，所以在那里投资并花费时间和金钱更有意义。

Lenny Rachitsky: For the typical founder, do you have any just, I don't know, thoughts of just like, "Here's when it makes sense.

Lenny Rachitsky：对于典型的创始人来说，我不知道你是否有任何类似的想法，“这是有意义的时候。

Here's a sign you really need to invest here heavily." Versus, "It'll probably be all right."

这表明你确实需要在这里进行大量投资。”与“可能会没事的”相对。

Grant Lee: Yeah.

格兰特·李：是的。

I mean, I do think it's probably more geared toward anything that's a little bit more prosumer or consumer because so much of your product, you're trying to create this feeling for a user, what are they experiencing.

我的意思是，我确实认为它可能更适合任何产消者或消费者，因为你的很多产品，你都在试图为用户创造这种感觉，他们正在经历什么。

And the experience happens way before they even drop into your product.

这种体验甚至在他们进入你的产品之前就已经发生了。

It might be they see an ad or they see a billboard or they see something.

他们可能会看到广告或广告牌或看到某些东西。

It's like, "Okay, that piqued my interest a little bit."

就像是，“好吧，这激起了我的兴趣。”

Grant Lee: And then you need some sort of symmetric messaging in that they see there's some symmetry in that, they see the ad, then they drop into the product or they land on your website, it feels cohesive and it feels like, "Okay, this is interesting.

Grant Lee：然后你需要某种对称消息传递，因为他们看到其中存在某种对称性，他们看到广告，然后他们进入产品或登陆你的网站，感觉有凝聚力，感觉就像，“好吧，这很有趣。

I'm going to go all the way through to sign up and then maybe actually start using the product."

我将一路完成注册，然后可能会真正开始使用该产品。”

Grant Lee: That's a little bit different when it's a B2B product or where there isn't as much reliance on that initial moment.

Grant Lee：当它是 B2B 产品或者不太依赖初始时刻时，情况会有点不同。

They might just hear about it through a colleague and then sign up for it and then go through a huge procurement process and then it's like, "Okay, maybe it matters, but probably not so much as for a product where the brand can have so many different touch points."

他们可能只是通过同事听说了它，然后注册了它，然后经历了一个庞大的采购流程，然后就像是，“好吧，也许这很重要，但对于品牌可以有这么多不同接触点的产品来说，可能没有那么重要。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk about some broader things that have worked to help you grow, but before we do that, I just want to visualize the pie chart of how Gamma grows.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈一些有助于你成长的更广泛的事情，但在我们这样做之前，我只想可视化 Gamma 如何增长的饼图。

Say, post-10 million ARR.

假设 ARR 达到 1000 万后。

If I have it correctly in my head, it's over 50% just word of mouth, organic, people are sharing it, doing presentations for each other, "Oh, it's Gamma.

如果我脑子里没记错的话，超过 50% 只是口耳相传，有机的，人们在分享它，互相做演示，“哦，这是 Gamma。

Just go check it out, sign up." Then it feels like the second-biggest bucket is influencer marketing, social stuff.

你去看看，报名吧。”然后感觉第二大桶是影响者营销、社交内容。

And then is the third performance/paid marketing?

那么第三个就是效果/付费营销？

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

On that last piece, is there anything else there for people that are starting to explore performance marketing, essentially Facebook Ads, Google Ads, all these other platforms, is there anything else that you think might be helpful for people to hear or learn just to get started down this road?

在最后一篇文章中，对于那些开始探索效果营销的人来说，还有什么其他的东西吗？主要是 Facebook 广告、Google 广告以及所有其他平台，您认为还有什么东西可能对人们听到或学习的东西有帮助，只是为了开始这条路？

Grant Lee: I would just have two recommendations.

Grant Lee：我只想提出两个建议。

One, going back to my initial piece of advice, which is don't invest until you have word of mouth.

第一，回到我最初的建议，即在有口碑之前不要投资。

Don't fool yourself into thinking that you'll solve other problems by just starting to ramp up a performance marketing program.

不要欺骗自己，以为只要开始加强绩效营销计划就可以解决其他问题。

Just get the word of mouthpiece first, so that you're coming into this program with some tailwinds and then start ramping it up.

首先获得代言人的口碑，这样你就可以顺风顺水地进入这个项目，然后开始加速它。

Grant Lee: The second piece is: set some constraints.

Grant Lee：第二块是：设置一些限制。

You don't want your product to be at a point where more than 50% of your acquisitions are coming through paid acquisition.

您不希望您的产品超过 50% 的购买量来自付费购买。

I think if that is happening, your core growth engine is broken.

我认为如果发生这种情况，你的核心增长引擎就坏了。

And it feeds right back to point number one, which is if your core growth engine is broken, you just have this leaky bucket.

这又回到了第一点，那就是如果你的核心增长引擎坏了，你就只剩下这个漏桶了。

You're trying to spend so much money building top of the funnel, people are not making it all the way through.

你试图花这么多钱来建设漏斗的顶部，但人们并没有完全通过。

Something else should be fixed before you really try to dial it up.

在您真正尝试拨号之前，应该先修复其他问题。

And it doesn't mean you don't spend a little bit of money, but just don't dial it up until you feel like your core growth engine is actually working.

这并不意味着您不花一点钱，而是在您感觉核心增长引擎真正发挥作用之前不要加大力度。

Lenny Rachitsky: When you said the first point about wait until you have word of mouth before investing in performance marketing, is that essentially a large chunk of your growth should be coming from word of mouth, direct, organic?

Lenny Rachitsky：当您提到第一点要等到获得口碑之后再投资效果营销时，您的增长的很大一部分是否应该来自直接的、有机的口碑？

Grant Lee: Yeah, yeah.

格兰特·李：是的，是的。

And for us, even at scale, again going back to more than 50% of new signups still come through word of mouth.

对于我们来说，即使规模很大，超过 50% 的新注册用户仍然是通过口碑传播的。

That, for us, is a sign like, "Okay, if something is still working, people are using the product, telling other people, then you want that feeling before you really start dialing anything else up."

对我们来说，这就像一个信号，“好吧，如果某些东西仍然有效，人们正在使用该产品，告诉其他人，那么在真正开始拨打其他任何东西之前，你需要这种感觉。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a percentage that you think is helpful for people to think about just...

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为有一个百分比对人们思考......有帮助吗？

Is it 25% or more something like that or just word of mouth for you to feel like, "Okay, we actually have organic growth as a major growth engine"?

是 25% 或更多类似的东西，还是只是口口相传，让您感觉“好吧，我们实际上将有机增长作为主要增长引擎”？

Grant Lee: Yeah, I think this comes back to maybe just how maybe aggressive you want to be.

格兰特·李：是的，我认为这可能又回到了你想要变得多么激进的问题。

I think just rough heuristic is the more, the better.

我认为粗略的启发式方法越多越好。

If it's over 50%, I think that's great.

如果超过50%，我认为就很好了。

If it's approaching that, good.

如果接近这个​​水平，那就太好了。

And just going back to, don't fool yourself into thinking just ads is going to be the way you grow.

回到过去，不要欺骗自己，认为只有广告才是你成长的方式。

Because you can do that, but everything else becomes harder and harder.

因为你可以做到这一点，但其他一切都变得越来越难。

Grant Lee: If you rely on paid acquisition to be the main growth engine, you should be prepared for things like CAC, like customer acquisition costs, to keep going up.

Grant Lee：如果您依靠付费获取作为主要增长引擎，那么您应该为 CAC（例如客户获取成本）等因素的持续上升做好准备。

The more you're trying to reach a new audience, it gets more and more expensive.

你越是试图吸引新的受众，它就会变得越来越昂贵。

So, don't assume it's going to be flat, and then all of a sudden you're running on this treadmill that's actually running faster and faster.

所以，不要假设它会变得平坦，然后突然间你在跑步机上跑步，而跑步机实际上跑得越来越快。

And so that's where it's easy to get hooked on that early on when you're just investing a small amount of money, and then it's almost impossible to get off that treadmill when you're too far into it.

因此，当你只投入少量资金时，很容易在早期就上瘾，而当你投入太深时，几乎不可能摆脱跑步机。

So, anticipate that and give yourself a better chance at actually being able to sustain that growth long-term.

因此，预见到这一点，并给自己一个更好的机会，真正能够长期维持这种增长。

Lenny Rachitsky: Important advice.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：重要的建议。

Okay.

好的。

There's a couple more elements you've shared that were key to Gamma's growth.

您还分享了一些对 Gamma 成长至关重要的元素。

One is sharing prototypes with users before you ship.

一是在发货前与用户共享原型。

What does that look like?

那看起来像什么？

What does that mean?

这意味着什么？

Why is that so powerful?

为何如此强大？

Grant Lee: Yeah.

格兰特·李：是的。

I mean, this for us was a huge unlock.

我的意思是，这对我们来说是一个巨大的解锁。

Going back to early days, when you're just trying to get your product into anybody's hands, you're getting to your friends trying to use it, and again, they're going to lie to you, tell you how great it is, and then never come back to using the product.

回到早期，当你只是想把你的产品交到任何人手中时，你会让你的朋友尝试使用它，而他们会再次对你撒谎，告诉你它有多棒，然后就再也不会使用该产品了。

Grant Lee: I think what you want to be able to do, the ideal situation is, you recruit a bunch of people that are legitimately good prospective users or customers of your product, but have zero skin in the game.

格兰特·李：我认为你想要做的，理想的情况是，你招募了一群人，他们是你产品的合法的良好潜在用户或客户，但在游戏中的皮肤为零。

They do not care at all whether or not your product succeeds.

他们根本不关心你的产品是否成功。

They're just in it to test it.

他们只是为了测试它。

And for us, it was people that have made slide decks or make slide decks regularly, let's drop them into Gamma, give them very little context.

对于我们来说，是人们制作了幻灯片或定期制作幻灯片，让我们将它们放入 Gamma 中，给他们很少的背景信息。

We just tell you, "Hey, this is an alternative to PowerPoint.

我们只是告诉您，“嘿，这是 PowerPoint 的替代品。

Go ahead and try it."

来吧，尝试一下。”

Grant Lee: And then as you're going through the onboarding flow and testing the product, just tell us everything that's going on in your head, describe what you're seeing, tell us what you're trying to do.

Grant Lee：然后，当您经历入职流程并测试产品时，请告诉我们您脑海中发生的一切，描述您所看到的内容，告诉我们您想要做什么。

We'll give you maybe a few different tasks like, "Oh, create a piece of content." And when you watch them do that and also hear what they're saying, you just immediately feel the pain.

我们可能会给您一些不同的任务，例如“哦，创建一段内容。”当你看到他们这样做并听到他们在说什么时，你会立即感受到痛苦。

Grant Lee: All the places they're struggling and all the places are so confused by what they're seeing and you sort of then can internalize that pain and say, "Okay, we're going back and we have to fix this.

格兰特·李：他们在所有地方都在挣扎，所有地方都对他们所看到的感到如此困惑，然后你可以将这种痛苦内化并说：“好吧，我们要回去了，我们必须解决这个问题。

This is not usable." We, oftentimes, are dog-fooding everything.

这不能用。”我们常常对一切进行测试。

And so you can get to the point where you're so familiar with your own product, everything feels kind of easy and you know where things are, but when you start actually hearing other people describe their usage of the product, that's a gift.

因此，您可以达到对自己的产品非常熟悉的程度，一切都感觉很简单，并且您知道东西在哪里，但是当您开始真正听到其他人描述他们对产品的使用时，这就是一份礼物。

Grant Lee: You're all of a sudden you're like, "Okay, now I know where to actually spend the time." People aren't even getting to the third screen.

格兰特·李：你突然会想，“好吧，现在我知道该把时间花在哪里了。”人们甚至没有进入第三个屏幕。

They're stuck on the first screen because they can't even find the button that we think is so dead obvious, and so let's go back and actually re-engineer, re-architect that piece of it.

他们被困在第一个屏幕上，因为他们甚至找不到我们认为非常明显的按钮，所以让我们回去实际重新设计、重新架构这一部分。

Grant Lee: And we've done that for everything: landing pages, onboarding experience, new feature launches, export, sharing, every single piece of that such that we can actually see where things are working or not.

Grant Lee：我们对所有事情都做到了这一点：登陆页面、入职体验、新功能发布、导出、共享，每一个环节都如此，这样我们就可以实际看到哪些地方工作正常，哪些地方工作不正常。

And then every time, we'll learn something that's kind of painful, but obvious that we need to fix and we go back and fix it.

然后每次，我们都会学到一些令人痛苦的东西，但显然我们需要修复它，然后我们回去修复它。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you scale this sort of thing?

Lenny Rachitsky：你如何扩展这类事情？

How do you run every new big idea, new feature change by people?

你如何运作人们的每一个新的伟大想法、新的功能变化？

Do you have a closed beta group, a decent platform?

你们有内测组、像样的平台吗？

How do you actually do this?

你实际上是如何做到这一点的？

Grant Lee: There's a couple of great platforms.

Grant Lee：有几个很棒的平台。

Voicepanel, which is also YC company, full disclosure, angel investor, and then there's also platforms like UserTesting, that really help you source and find these people that fit again, that persona or profile you're looking for.

Voicepanel，也是 YC 公司，完全披露，天使投资人，然后还有像 UserTesting 这样的平台，可以真正帮助您寻找和找到那些再次适合您正在寻找的角色或个人资料的人。

So, in our case, people that are in a specific job function or create decks regularly, and so you can use those platforms to really scale up these programs pretty fast.

因此，在我们的例子中，从事特定工作职能或定期创建套牌的人，因此您可以使用这些平台来真正快速地扩展这些程序。

Grant Lee: And then once your team knows how to use those platforms...

Grant Lee：一旦您的团队知道如何使用这些平台......

We would have an idea in the morning and in the afternoon, we're already running a pretty full scale experiment or a research study, and by the evening or by the next day, we can actually go through all of it together.

我们会在早上和下午有一个想法，我们已经在进行相当全面的实验或研究，到晚上或第二天，我们实际上可以一起完成所有工作。

So, it's pretty fast once you have it set up.

所以，一旦设置好，速度就相当快了。

It's more about how do you get the program onboarded the right way.

更重要的是如何以正确的方式启动该程序。

Grant Lee: I think the other sort of mechanism we did early on was once we had some repeat users, we created sort of a program for our power users.

Grant Lee：我认为我们早期所做的另一种机制是，一旦我们有了一些重复用户，我们就为我们的高级用户创建了一个程序。

We called it the Gammaster Program, which is we put them into a separate Slack workspace, and that was a place for us to share very, very early prototypes like wireframes, sometimes they were functional prototypes, and get them to get some initial feedback as well.

我们将其称为 Gammaster 计划，即我们将它们放入一个单独的 Slack 工作区中，这是我们共享非常非常早期的原型（例如线框）的地方，有时它们是功能原型，并让它们也获得一些初步反馈。

This definitely helps with more later stage or features or things that aren't going to be necessarily important as part of onboarding, but once you understand Gamma, like, "Oh, how do you share it?"

这肯定有助于更多后期阶段或功能或在入职过程中不一定重要的事情，但一旦您了解 Gamma，就像，“哦，您如何分享它？”

Grant Lee: For instance, this was a great way to start testing some of that because they already understand Gamma, but now you're adding that new functionality.

Grant Lee：例如，这是开始测试其中一些功能的好方法，因为他们已经了解 Gamma，但现在您要添加新功能。

And then we can also watch them struggle and hear how they're struggling with the product.

然后我们还可以观察他们的挣扎并聆听他们如何与产品作斗争。

And so that has been a great way just to have a separate Slack workspace.

因此，拥有一个单独的 Slack 工作区是一个很好的方法。

Anytime we're thinking about something, they're the first to hear about it.

每当我们思考某件事时，他们都是第一个听到的。

Give us some early indication if we're on the right track or not.

如果我们走在正确的轨道上，请给我们一些早期指示。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this workflow that you shared of you have an idea in the morning, you built a prototype.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你分享的这个工作流程，你早上有一个想法，你构建了一个原型。

Do you built it with AI prototyping tools like Cursor, Lovable, something like that?

您是否使用 Cursor、Lovable 等 AI 原型工具构建它？

Grant Lee: Yep.

格兰特·李：是的。

That or it could be...

那个或者它可能是...

Yeah, I mean we're lucky a lot of our designers also know how to code, so even before the recent tools, come up with some sort of functional prototype and then be able to ship that so people can start playing with it.

是的，我的意思是，我们很幸运，我们的很多设计师也知道如何编码，所以即使在最近的工具出现之前，也可以提出某种功能原型，然后能够将其交付，以便人们可以开始使用它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

So, you have an idea in the morning, you build a prototype using various tools.

所以，你早上有一个想法，你使用各种工具构建一个原型。

By the end of the day, you are getting feedback from real people using one of these platforms, Voicepanel or UserTesting, and just that loop saves you, I imagine, potentially months of just building the thing nobody wants and shipping it, launching it, and then just failing.

到一天结束时，您会从使用这些平台（Voicepanel 或 UserTesting）之一的真实用户那里获得反馈，我想，正是这个循环可以让您节省几个月的时间，只构建没人想要的东西，然后交付它，启动它，然后就失败了。

Grant Lee: Totally.

格兰特·李：完全可以。

Yeah.

是的。

I think this is even more probably helpful for certainly a lot of folks that are starting to do much with vibe-coded apps.

我认为这对于很多开始使用 vivi 编码应用程序做很多事情的人来说可能更有帮助。

Yeah, that's great.

是的，那太好了。

You've lowered the amount of time to get something out there.

你减少了把东西拿出来的时间。

Now, prove that it's useful to some set of users, and this should be again, every day, every week, you should be able to go through a ton of these, and then build on the things that seem to be working.

现在，证明它对某些用户有用，这应该再次，每天，每周，您应该能够经历大量这些，然后在似乎有效的事情上进行构建。

Grant Lee: I feel like that's almost like a way to speed run a lot of that early...

格兰特·李：我觉得这几乎就像是早期加速跑步的一种方式......

you're in the idea maze, you think you have something that could kind of work.

你正处于想法迷宫中，你认为你有一些可行的东西。

How do you actually break through so that people are actually finding value in what you're building?

您如何真正实现突破，以便人们真正发现您正在构建的产品的价值？

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I love it because so many people hear this idea of just run your stuff by users before you do the user research.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我喜欢它，因为很多人都听到过这样的想法：在进行用户研究之前，先由用户运行你的东西。

It sounds so hard and heavy lift-y, and the way you're describing it is very automated, very quick to do.

这听起来是如此困难和沉重，而且你描述它的方式是非常自动化的，做起来非常快。

You don't have to go think about finding random people in a coffee shop.

你不必去考虑在咖啡店里随机寻找人。

It's just like these platforms exist where you could go plug in your thing, get feedback by the end of the day.

就像这些平台存在一样，您可以在其中插入您的东西，并在一天结束时获得反馈。

Grant Lee: Totally.

格兰特·李：完全可以。

Yeah, and that helps you just move way faster.

是的，这可以帮助你走得更快。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a feature that you were super excited about that you built and ran through this and just like, "Okay, that was a huge failure"?

Lenny Rachitsky：是否有一个功能让您感到非常兴奋，您构建并运行了这个功能，然后就像“好吧，这是一个巨大的失败”？

Grant Lee: I don't think any of the ones where we...

格兰特·李：我不认为我们...

We always try to chunk it down.

我们总是试图将其分解。

So, none of the things we're testing earlier on are these massive features.

所以，我们之前测试的东西都不是这些庞大的功能。

They're always an inception or a starting point of, "This could be something interesting."

它们始终是“这可能是一些有趣的事情”的开始或起点。

Grant Lee: And then we take that initial learning and actually then build the product around it.

Grant Lee：然后我们进行初步学习，并围绕它实际构建产品。

It's never like, "Oh, we spent four months working on this thing.

它从来不会像，“哦，我们花了四个月的时间来做这件事。

Let's see if anybody actually wants it." It's almost like we always start super early.

让我们看看是否有人真的想要它。”就好像我们总是很早就开始一样。

And then a bunch of ideas die right away, but they're still pretty small ideas.

然后一堆想法马上就消失了，但它们仍然是很小的想法。

Grant Lee: And then the ones that kind of pass the initial test, you start building towards something that could be, hopefully, more game-changing or much more value-add.

格兰特·李（Grant Lee）：然后，那些通过了初步测试的人，你就开始朝着能够改变游戏规则或更具附加值的方向发展。

And by the time you're actually shipping, you've gone through 10 different layers of actually testing and iteration before it actually sees the light of day.

当您实际交付时，您已经经历了 10 个不同层的实际测试和迭代，然后才真正面世。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's really interesting about you and the way your company operates, you guys are ex-Optimizely people, so you're very versed in experimentation.

Lenny Rachitsky：您和您公司的运营方式真正有趣的地方是，你们都是前优化人员，所以你们非常擅长实验。

A lot of people talk about A/B testing experimentation as something that doesn't make sense for a startup because the scale is so low.

很多人认为 A/B 测试实验对于初创公司来说没有意义，因为规模太小了。

What I'm hearing here, and I know this is something you talk about, is just there is actually a lot of ways to think experimentally, even in the early stages.

我在这里听到的，我知道这就是你所说的，实际上有很多方法可以进行实验思考，即使在早期阶段也是如此。

Is there something more there you think is important for people to hear?

您认为还有什么对人们来说很重要的吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah.

格兰特·李：是的。

I really think it's more of...

我真的认为这更多的是...

The mindset you go into to almost any problem or opportunity is the saying of, "Strong opinions weakly held." I think it's totally fine to have some of these assumptions or hypotheses going into a lot of these things, but you should always know that there's a way to start trying to validate some of this.

对待几乎任何问题或机会，你都会抱有这样的心态：“强意见弱”。我认为在很多事情中加入一些假设或假设是完全可以的，但你应该始终知道有一种方法可以开始尝试验证其中的一些内容。

Grant Lee: As a founder, you're always trying to build conviction, and so you build conviction by not having it all live in your head, but getting it out there and start testing this with users, prospect customers, and starting to see what are the things that actually feel right.

Grant Lee：作为一名创始人，你总是试图建立信念，所以你建立信念的方法不是把一切都放在脑子里，而是把它拿出来，开始与用户、潜在客户进行测试，并开始看看什么是真正感觉正确的事情。

And sometimes you have enough data to be statistically significant.

有时您有足够的数据具有统计显着性。

Sometimes it's more of a, "Hey, we at least were able to gut check this a little bit and get some qualitative feedback." I think that's still valuable.

有时更多的是，“嘿，我们至少能够稍微检查一下并获得一些定性反馈。”我认为这还是有价值的。

It shouldn't be this sort of all or nothing like, "It has to be static for it to be useful." I don't think that's true.

它不应该是这样的“要么全有要么全无”，“它必须是静态的才能有用。”我不认为这是真的。

Grant Lee: In fact, I'll just share the very early story of when we first started Gamma, we knew we wanted to help change the way people communicate, and we actually had two different ideas we were parallel pathing kind of at the same time.

Grant Lee：事实上，我只想分享我们第一次启动 Gamma 时的早期故事，我们知道我们想要帮助改变人们的沟通方式，而且我们实际上有两种不同的想法，我们同时进行并行路径。

Of course we had presentations, reimagining how people were creating presentations, and we also actually had this separate idea, which we called The Lobby, which is a virtual office.

当然，我们有演示文稿，重新想象人们如何创建演示文稿，我们实际上也有这个单独的想法，我们称之为“大厅”，这是一个虚拟办公室。

This is a place where this is, again, peak pandemic, much more hybrid work, much more virtual work.

这是一个再次出现疫情高峰的地方，更多的混合工作，更多的虚拟工作。

And so this was a place where everybody on the team, whether you're in the same office or not, could gather, collaborate to feel pretty magical.

因此，在这个地方，团队中的每个人，无论是否在同一个办公室，都可以聚集、协作，感觉非常神奇。

Grant Lee: And we worked on both for six months.

Grant Lee：我们在这两个方面都工作了六个月。

We worked on both the virtual office and the presentation product for six months.

我们在虚拟办公室和演示产品上工作了六个月。

We would dog-food both.

我们都会把两者都当狗粮。

So, oftentimes we'd be in the virtual office, presenting the presentation tool and kind of use both.

因此，我们经常会在虚拟办公室中展示演示工具并同时使用两者。

And after six months, we came to this conclusion that we wanted to go all in on the presentation tool.

六个月后，我们得出了这样的结论：我们想要全力以赴地开发演示工具。

And the reason was, when we looked at the virtual office tool, we were sort of always competing against what we thought was something we'd never be able to surpass, which is in real life experience, actually being able to work shoulder to shoulder with your colleagues and having this environment where you really feel like you're building together.

原因是，当我们考虑虚拟办公工具时，我们总是在与我们认为永远无法超越的东西竞争，这是在现实生活中的体验，实际上能够与同事并肩工作，并拥有一个让你真正感觉是在共同建设的环境。

Grant Lee: Virtual office could get pretty good, but we would never beat that.

Grant Lee：虚拟办公室可能会变得非常好，但我们永远不会打败它。

And so we were almost limited in our own imagination about how good could this product be versus the presentation product.

因此，我们对这个产品与演示产品相比能有多好的想象力几乎是有限的。

We ended up with a million more ideas we thought we could actually introduce that could be better than how you work in PowerPoint today.

我们最终得到了一百万个想法，我们认为我们实际上可以引入这些想法，这些想法可能比您今天在 PowerPoint 中的工作方式更好。

We were just so energized by it.

我们对此充满了活力。

Grant Lee: And so for us, that was this sort of A/B test of testing these two things that we invested equal amount of time into, and coming out at the other end realizing that, one, was going to be the product we were pour all of our blood, sweat and tears into making it great because we saw the potential in it.

Grant Lee：对我们来说，这就是一种 A/B 测试，我们投入了同等的时间来测试这两件事，然后在另一端意识到，其中之一将成为我们倾注所有心血、汗水和泪水的产品，使其变得伟大，因为我们看到了它的潜力。

Lenny Rachitsky: I didn't know that about you guys, that you explored that other idea.

Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道你们探索过另一个想法。

There's so many startups that did that during COVID times, and like, "Okay, this is the future.

在新冠疫情期间，有很多初创公司这样做了，就像，“好吧，这就是未来。

We're all going to be remote, and let's work remotely in virtual offices." There's a startup and I'm a tiny investor in, Lindy, that is now a big AI agent company, and they did the same thing.

我们都将处于远程状态，让我们在虚拟办公室中远程工作。”有一家初创公司，我是 Lindy 的小投资者，它现在是一家大型人工智能代理公司，他们也做了同样的事情。

I imagine that was their whole first concept.

我想这就是他们的第一个概念。

It was just these little avatars.

只是这些小头像。

It was like a little game where you walk around, go to little virtual meeting rooms.

这就像一个小游戏，你可以四处走动，去虚拟的小会议室。

Grant Lee: Yeah, it was a fun product to work on, but yeah.

Grant Lee：是的，这是一个有趣的产品，但是是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, it's interesting how we just reverted back to the mean of just like, "Yeah, people are in offices again.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，有趣的是我们如何恢复到“是的，人们又回到办公室了”的意思。

That was a fun experience." Although things have changed.

那是一次有趣的经历。”虽然事情已经改变了。

Just to highlight this point you made that I think is really powerful, I haven't heard it described this way before, just the power of testing prototypes very, very, very early, using these platforms that make it super easy.

只是为了强调你提出的这一点，我认为它非常强大，我以前从未听过这样的描述，只是非常、非常、非常早地使用这些平台测试原型的力量，这使得它变得非常容易。

Lenny Rachitsky: We always hear, "Okay, you have a mock, you have a prototype.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们总是听到，“好吧，你有一个模拟，你有一个原型。

Yeah, testing with users always feels like this heavy thing.

是的，与用户一起进行测试总是让人感觉很沉重。

You got to have a user research team, go do interviews, do one-on-ones." What you're describing is something...

你必须有一个用户研究团队，去进行采访，进行一对一的交流。”你所描述的东西是...

I don't know why everyone's not doing this.

我不知道为什么大家不这样做。

With AI tools, it's so easy now.

有了人工智能工具，一切变得如此简单。

Have an idea, build the prototype, test it with, I don't know, is it like dozens of people?

有一个想法，建立原型，测试它，我不知道，是不是像几十个人一样？

How many people actually run through a prototype on average?

平均有多少人实际运行过原型？

Lenny Rachitsky: 20 people.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：20 人。

So, 20 people look at this thing, give you a bunch of feedback, you realize this was very dumb, or, "Here's the nugget that we want to lean into." And instead of building a thing, instead of doing all these user research sessions, things like that.

所以，20 个人看着这个东西，给你一堆反馈，你意识到这非常愚蠢，或者，“这是我们想要深入研究的金块。”而不是构建一个东西，而不是进行所有这些用户研究会议，诸如此类的事情。

Super cool.

超级酷。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Is there any other big lesson or lever that has helped you grow to today's 100 million ARR, and $2 billion company?

是否有任何其他重要经验或杠杆可以帮助您成长为今天的 1 亿 ARR 和 20 亿美元的公司？

We talked about influencer marketing, we talked about testing prototypes, investing in brand and a little bit of paid growth.

我们讨论了影响者营销，讨论了测试原型、投资品牌和一点付费增长。

Anything else?

还要别的吗？

Grant Lee: Certainly for us, the ability to adapt and move fast in this environment.

Grant Lee：对我们来说当然是在这种环境中适应和快速行动的能力。

I attribute a lot of what we've been able to accomplish to a few things.

我将我们能够取得的成就归功于以下几件事。

One is we do have a small team and a lean team, one that's able to move really fast.

一是我们确实拥有一支小团队和一支精简的团队，一支能够快速行动的团队。

I think that means, by default, we have to look for a lot of levers where a small team can do a lot of different things.

我认为这意味着，默认情况下，我们必须寻找很多杠杆，让小团队可以做很多不同的事情。

Grant Lee: So, we can talk, one, obviously about how do you construct a team like ours and what I think has worked.

格兰特·李：所以，我们可以谈谈，第一，显然是关于如何构建像我们这样的团队以及我认为有效的方法。

And then two, going back to experimentation being this sort of thing where for us it's been a huge unlock because it allows you to not only test things and iterate a ton, it allows you to build much more efficiently.

然后第二点，回到实验这种事情，对我们来说这是一个巨大的解锁，因为它不仅允许您测试事物并进行大量迭代，还允许您更有效地构建。

And so we've been in a startup where we've had great unit economics from the very beginning.

因此，我们是一家初创公司，从一开始就拥有出色的单位经济效益。

We run profitably, we have really strong margins.

我们盈利，我们的利润率非常高。

Grant Lee: I don't think that would be possible if experimentation wasn't core infrastructure to us because the temptation would be you just throw the most expensive model at every job and assume that's going to work.

Grant Lee：如果实验不是我们的核心基础设施，我认为这是不可能的，因为你可能会在每项工作中使用最昂贵的模型，并假设它会起作用。

And the reality is that never is the case.

但现实情况却并非如此。

And so for us to be able to actually test across 20 different models in production today, always trying to align the kind of value we're delivering to our customers with our ability to actually scale this operation, that's been in the background.

因此，我们今天能够在生产中实际测试 20 种不同的模型，并始终努力将我们为客户提供的价值与我们实际扩展此操作的能力结合起来，这一直是在后台进行的。

Grant Lee: And not always things that are easily quantifiable or things that you're sharing broadly, but it is core to our DNA.

Grant Lee：并不总是容易量化的事情或广泛分享的事情，但它是我们 DNA 的核心。

And again, going back to a team that came from Optimizely, probably not surprising, but I do think that's been part of our ability to actually execute at this level.

再说一次，回到来自 Optimizely 的团队，可能并不奇怪，但我确实认为这是我们在这个级别实际执行能力的一部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that the product is so beautiful and such a good experience.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个产品如此美丽和如此好的体验。

It's such a good example of experimentation and being really obsessed with running experiments, A/B tests.

这是一个很好的实验例子，并且非常痴迷于运行实验、A/B 测试。

Data can create really beautiful products and experiences that aren't just feeling like some kind of micro-optimized flow.

数据可以创造出真正美丽的产品和体验，而不仅仅是某种微观优化的流程。

Grant Lee: Totally.

格兰特·李：完全可以。

Yeah.

是的。

And just going back to one part of the team, part of that plays a huge role, which is you want to build a product where people talk about taste and brand and all these things, what they emote.

回到团队的一部分，其中一部分发挥着巨大的作用，那就是你想要打造一款产品，让人们谈论品味、品牌以及所有这些事情，他们所表达的情感。

I'm not going to throw in whether or not, yes or no, but I do think it makes a difference.

我不会抛出是否、是或否的问题，但我确实认为这会有所不同。

And for us, at some point, more than a quarter of a team or about a quarter of our team was product designers.

对于我们来说，在某些时候，超过四分之一的团队或大约四分之一的团队是产品设计师。

I think that's an unintuitive level of investment, or at least that's not common.

我认为这是一种不直观的投资水平，或者至少这种情况并不常见。

You don't see many startups at our stage or early stage where a quarter of the team's product designers.

在我们这个阶段或早期阶段，你不会看到很多初创公司的团队中有四分之一的产品设计师。

Grant Lee: And I think that was an important investment for us because when you think about with AI companies, so many companies are trying to invent new surface areas or new user experiences, and that's not possible if you're not really getting the foundation right, really thinking deeply about user problems and how can you solve them in a novel way.

Grant Lee：我认为这对我们来说是一项重要的投资，因为当你考虑人工智能公司时，很多公司都在试图发明新的领域或新的用户体验，如果你没有真正打好基础，没有真正深入思考用户问题以及如何以新颖的方式解决这些问题，这是不可能的。

And so for us, we made that investment in the very beginning, even if it was counter to what other startups would do, because we actually felt like it was the right thing.

因此，对我们来说，我们从一开始就进行了投资，即使这与其他初创公司的做法相反，因为我们实际上觉得这是正确的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I definitely want to spend more time on hiring.

我肯定想花更多的时间在招聘上。

Before we get to that, you've touched on this kind of concept that you guys are, what many described, a GPT wrapper company.

在我们开始之前，你们已经接触过这种概念，正如许多人所描述的那样，你们是一家 GPT 包装公司。

You essentially sit on top of other models, do some cool stuff, charge for that.

你本质上是坐在其他模型之上，做一些很酷的事情，并为此付费。

There's historically, and there's been a big shift here, historically, there's this sense that, "Okay, you're just this thin layer on top of the model.

从历史上看，这里发生了很大的转变，从历史上看，有一种感觉，“好吧，你只是模型顶部的这一薄层。

How is there any sort of motor leverage or long-term business model here when it's just the model that is doing the thing and charging you guys to do all this AI work?"

当这个模型只是在做事情并向你们收取所有这些人工智能工作的费用时，这里怎么会有任何形式的动力杠杆或长期商业模式呢？”

Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like people have started to realize maybe that is the only place money will be made because the models are just so hard to compete with, and that's not a place you can build a business anymore.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉人们已经开始意识到，也许这是唯一能赚钱的地方，因为这些模型很难与之竞争，而且那不再是你可以建立业务的地方。

Talk about just what you've learned about this concept of being a GPT wrapper, and what people may not be understanding about the business opportunity there.

谈谈您对 GPT 包装器这一概念的了解，以及人们可能不了解其中的商机的地方。

Grant Lee: When you think about maybe just literally only being a wrapper on one model or one provider, yeah, maybe there's only limited amount of utility or value add.

Grant Lee：当你想到可能只是字面上只是一种模型或一个提供商的包装时，是的，也许只有有限的效用或增值。

But then when you start thinking about, "Okay, I'm going to go really deep into this one workflow, and it's not just one model." It's maybe 20 plus models powering all different parts of the product, and then you're thinking about the orchestration that's required and you're thinking about, obviously if you're experimenting constantly being able to test across the newest models versus models that have been around that are cheaper, you're doing a lot to really...

但是当你开始思考时，“好吧，我将真正深入研究这个工作流程，而且它不仅仅是一个模型。”可能有 20 多个模型为产品的所有不同部分提供支持，然后您会考虑所需的编排，并且您会考虑，显然，如果您不断进行试验，能够测试最新的模型与现有的更便宜的模型，那么您正在做很多事情来真正......

Your job is to, again, align value, maximize the value you're delivering to the end user in a way that's sustainable for you as a business.

您的工作是再次调整价值，以对您的企业可持续发展的方式最大限度地提高为最终用户提供的价值。

And so there's a lot more to that.

所以还有很多事情要做。

Grant Lee: And so for us, we've always been passionate about being very close to our customers, our users.

Grant Lee：对于我们来说，我们一直热衷于与我们的客户、我们的用户保持密切联系。

Who, for them, their job to be done is visual communication, visual storytelling.

对于他们来说，他们要做的工作就是视觉传达、视觉讲故事。

And the default tool today is going into a PowerPoint or Google Slides where the amount of effort to create something...

今天的默认工具是进入 PowerPoint 或 Google 幻灯片，其中创建某些内容需要付出大量的努力......

We've all been there late at night trying to format a deck, trying to find the right layout, all this manual and tedious work.

我们都在深夜试图格式化甲板，试图找到正确的布局，所有这些手动和乏味的工作。

Grant Lee: Well, what if you could abstract all that away and give them something that feels a little bit more delightful, a little bit easier, much more effortless?

格兰特·李：好吧，如果你能把所有这些抽象出来，给他们一些感觉更愉快、更轻松、更轻松的东西，会怎么样？

What would that earn you in terms of a customer that wants to come back to your product?

对于想要再次使用您的产品的客户来说，这会给您带来什么？

And so that's everything that we focus on is you need to go deep into the workflow, be empathetic to the user and their job that you're trying to solve, and of course, apply the best technology possible so that you're delivering on that promise of a product experience that's way better than the status quo.

因此，我们关注的就是您需要深入工作流程，对用户及其要解决的工作表示同情，当然，应用尽可能最好的技术，以便您兑现比现状更好的产品体验的承诺。

Grant Lee: And I think if you can be laser-focused on, it doesn't matter if you're a wrapper or not, what is the technology you're doing and applying, that makes a real difference?

Grant Lee：我认为，如果你能被激光聚焦，那么无论你是否是包装工，你正在做和应用的技术是什么，这会产生真正的影响？

So, that's the ultimate goal.

所以，这就是最终目标。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is a really cool framework for how to think about what it takes to build a successful wrapper company that is...

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常酷的框架，可以帮助您思考如何建立一家成功的包装公司……

I don't know, I'll keep using that term.

我不知道，我会继续使用这个词。

I don't know if it's , but just some ideas don't work.

我不知道是不是这样，但只是有些想法行不通。

These model companies are launching their own products here and there.

这些模型公司到处推出自己的产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, what I love about what you're describing here is almost like a heuristic that'll tell you if there's an opportunity/how to be successful as a GPT "wrapper company." I'm putting in air quotes.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，我喜欢你在这里描述的内容，它几乎就像一种启发式方法，它会告诉你是否有机会/如何作为 GPT“包装公司”取得成功。我正在添加空气引号。

It sounded like maybe there's three here.

听起来这里可能有三个。

But talk about just if you think about the bullet points of what you need to do to build a successful business on top of existing models.

但是，如果您考虑一下在现有模型之上建立成功的业务需要做什么的要点，请谈谈。

Grant Lee: I mean, I think the most important thing is before we even talk about the technology, so we're skipping to the part where you're trying to apply the most interesting models or technology to solve some problem.

Grant Lee：我的意思是，我认为最重要的事情是在我们讨论技术之前，所以我们跳到您尝试应用最有趣的模型或技术来解决某些问题的部分。

Start with solving the problem you actually care about.

从解决您真正关心的问题开始。

Grant Lee: I think it's very tempting right now to chase shiny objects, like a founder might be able to gain some initial traction by literally being that GPT wrapper and solving any sort of problem.

Grant Lee：我认为现在追逐闪亮的东西是非常诱人的，就像创始人可能能够通过真正成为 GPT 包装器并解决任何类型的问题来获得一些初步的吸引力。

And you start to see some traction and then you just go with that.

然后你开始看到一些吸引力，然后你就顺其自然。

But before you do that, you should think about, "Is this a problem I can invest five to 10 years into actually solving?

但在你这样做之前，你应该考虑一下，“这个问题我可以花五到十年来实际解决吗？

Do I care deeply enough about it?"

我对此关心得足够深吗？”

Grant Lee: Because if you can't, you're never going to go...

格兰特·李：因为如果你做不到，你就永远不会去......

actually think about overcoming the variety of different hurdles, whether it's other startups or other incumbent tools that are trying to start doing the same thing.

实际上考虑克服各种不同的障碍，无论是其他初创公司还是其他试图开始做同样事情的现有工具。

Grant Lee: And so for us, we go back to...

格兰特·李：所以对我们来说，我们回到......

We've started this company because we really care about helping change the way people communicate their ideas.

我们创办这家公司是因为我们真正关心帮助改变人们交流想法的方式。

We really feel like this idea of visual communication, visual storytelling matters.

我们真的觉得视觉传达、视觉讲故事的想法很重要。

It helps elevate everybody and it gives people much more opportunity to do the things that in the past if you weren't great at making slides, your ideas might've died, and someone else that was able to actually articulate their ideas better ended up winning the deal or winning the favor of their manager or their boss.

它有助于提升每个人的水平，并为人们提供更多的机会来做过去的事情，如果你不擅长制作幻灯片，你的想法可能会消失，而其他能够更好地表达自己想法的人最终会赢得交易或赢得经理或老板的青睐。

Grant Lee: And so we felt like that was the wrong, that didn't feel right, and so could we help democratize visual storytelling, visual communication?

格兰特·李：所以我们觉得这是错误的，感觉不对，所以我们可以帮助实现视觉叙事和视觉传达的民主化吗？

That was sort of our north star.

那是我们的北极星。

And then you go back into thinking, "Okay, every step of the way, what are the tools and technology I can apply to help solve that and actually move the average person closer to that long-term vision of ours?"

然后你回过头来思考，“好吧，每一步，我可以应用哪些工具和技术来帮助解决这个问题，并真正让普通人更接近我们的长期愿景？”

Grant Lee: And of course, AI has been, again, this gift where yes, you can apply that to solving this job.

Grant Lee：当然，人工智能再次成为了这份礼物，是的，你可以应用它来解决这项工作。

You can also apply that AI to many different jobs.

您还可以将该人工智能应用于许多不同的工作。

Figure out what is the problem you care deeply enough to go deep, because going back to this sort of idea, you need to own the sort of end-to-end workflow.

弄清楚你关心的问题是什么，需要深入探讨，因为回到这种想法，你需要拥有那种端到端的工作流程。

A customer needs to have...

客户需要有...

You want your product to live in their brain somewhere where when they think about, "Hey, I have to create a presentation." They come to you as the default tool.

您希望您的产品存在于他们大脑中的某个地方，当他们想到“嘿，我必须创建一个演示文稿”时。它们是您的默认工具。

Grant Lee: And the moment they start creating it to the moment they ship it and send it to their boss, that end-to-end experience needs to feel magical, needs to feel great.

Grant Lee：从他们开始创建它的那一刻到他们将其交付并发送给老板的那一刻，端到端的体验需要感觉神奇，需要感觉很棒。

And I don't think you can really do that unless it's actually a workflow you either know deeply yourself or you care deeply to actually help solve for somebody else.

我认为你不能真正做到这一点，除非它实际上是一个你自己深入了解的工作流程，或者你非常关心实际帮助别人解决问题的工作流程。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, some of the elements I'm hearing here is, one, is just like actually really care about solving this problem, not come from, "Oh wow, this cool thing happened and it worked.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，我在这里听到的一些要素是，一，就像实际上真正关心解决这个问题，而不是来自，“哦哇，这件很酷的事情发生了并且它起作用了。

Wow, maybe I could sell this thing to people." Because you may end up having to work on this thing for 10, 20 years.

哇，也许我可以把这个东西卖给人们。”因为你最终可能要在这件事上工作10年、20年。

Lenny Rachitsky: Two is: understand the problem really, really deeply and have real empathy for the people trying to solve this problem.

Lenny Rachitsky：第二个是：真正、真正深入地理解问题，并对试图解决这个问题的人们有真正的同理心。

You have this problem creating presentations at your previous job, so you understood it, and I imagine you understand even more deeply now that you worked on this.

您在之前的工作中在创建演示文稿时遇到了这个问题，所以您理解了它，并且我想您现在已经解决了这个问题，并且理解得更加深刻。

Essentially, care really deeply, go really deep on the problem, have real empathy for the people facing this problem, and then there's this actually be able to solve this problem using the technology out there.

从本质上讲，真正深入地关心，真正深入地研究问题，对面临这个问题的人有真正的同理心，然后就可以使用现有的技术来解决这个问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: And you made this point about how you guys use 20 different models to do what you do.

Lenny Rachitsky：您提到了你们如何使用 20 种不同的模型来完成您所做的事情。

Talk a little bit more about that just because people may think, "Oh, okay, I could just go to ChatGPT or Claude and it'll create an awesome presentation for me." Why does it take 20 different models?

多谈论一点，因为人们可能会想，“哦，好吧，我可以直接去 ChatGPT 或 Claude，它会为我创建一个很棒的演示文稿。”为什么需要 20 个不同的模型？

Why is that such a big part of the success here?

为什么这是这里成功的一个重要部分？

Grant Lee: Yeah, so going back to the workflow, you're trying to go and break down every step of the creation process for a user.

Grant Lee：是的，回到工作流程，您要尝试分解用户创建过程的每一步。

So, the moment of the initial idea to maybe creating an outline of what you want to present or articulate to creating the first draft.

因此，最初的想法可能是为您想要呈现或阐明的内容创建一个大纲，以创建初稿。

What do we show you there to editing the content?

我们向您展示什么来编辑内容？

Grant Lee: Like, "Okay, I have a first draft, but it's only 60% of the way there.

Grant Lee：就像，“好吧，我有初稿，但只完成了 60%。

How do I get to 100% of the way there?" Those are all things that might require different models.

我怎样才能100%完成目标呢？”这些都是可能需要不同模型的事情。

The initial outline might be better served by something that's purposed-built for actually creating the best outline, the best narrative, the best story arc, versus one where you're actually going back and saying...

最初的大纲可能更适合那些专门为实际创建最佳大纲、最佳叙述、最佳故事情节而构建的东西，而不是你实际上回过头来说……

Gamma, our agent can actually go and review your entire deck and say, "Actually, if I were to add suggestions, I would say, 'You may want to change the visual layout on these set of cards, and you may want to actually change the imagery or the visuals for these cards to match everything else.'"

Gamma，我们的代理实际上可以去检查你的整个套牌，然后说：“实际上，如果我要添加建议，我会说，‘你可能想要更改这组卡牌的视觉布局，并且你可能想要实际更改这些卡牌的图像或视觉效果以匹配其他所有内容。’”

Grant Lee: These are things that, again, every model might be better served for different things.

Grant Lee：同样，每个模型可能更适合不同的事情。

And so knowing how that actually breaks down into the end user, sitting down, working on the product, working on their presentation, how do you help them?

因此，了解最终用户如何实际分解，坐下来研究产品，进行演示，您如何帮助他们？

I think you can only do that by understanding-

我认为你只能通过理解来做到这一点-

Grant Lee: Their presentation, how do you help them?

Grant Lee：他们的演讲，你如何帮助他们？

I think you can only do that by understanding that workflow and then breaking that down into finding the right tool for the right job.

我认为你只能通过理解工作流程然后将其分解为找到适合正确工作的正确工具来做到这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is super interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：这非常有趣。

Essentially there's like, here's the things that AI has to do for us.

本质上来说，这是人工智能必须为我们做的事情。

I don't know, imagining some kind of a storyboard and then it's figure out the model and level of model and prompt for that model to achieve each of these steps as best as possible.

我不知道，想象某种故事板，然后它找出模型和模型级别，并提示该模型尽可能好地实现每个步骤。

Grant Lee: Totally.

格兰特·李：完全可以。

Yeah, and it applies to even on the visual side, finding the right image.

是的，它甚至适用于视觉方面，找到正确的图像。

I think certain models are great at photorealistic output versus others want more of the artistic vibe or something that feels more abstract.

我认为某些模型非常擅长逼真的输出，而其他模型则想要更多的艺术氛围或感觉更抽象的东西。

And so again, you can choose the right model for the right job.

同样，您可以为正确的工作选择正确的型号。

It doesn't mean that you'll never use other models, it's just like as you're going through that workflow, the content might dictate what's the best use case.

这并不意味着您永远不会使用其他模型，就像您在经历该工作流程时，内容可能会决定什么是最佳用例。

So in that particular use case and so you're always trying to map to that, what is the end user trying to accomplish in that certain moment?

因此，在那个特定的用例中，你总是试图映射到这一点，最终用户在那个特定时刻想要完成什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: Which models are you finding most useful in the work?

Lenny Rachitsky：您认为哪些模型在工作中最有用？

I don't know, is there anything surprising about, "Oh wow, this model's actually really good at this and this is really bad at that."

我不知道，“哦哇，这个模型实际上非常擅长这个，而这个模型非常擅长这个”，这有什么令人惊讶的吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah, I think surprising or not surprising, the leaderboard is constantly changing and so this is where you almost, you have to have the mindset that you can be adaptable.

Grant Lee：是的，我认为令人惊讶或不足为奇，排行榜在不断变化，所以这就是你几乎可以做到的地方，你必须有一种能够适应的心态。

We're just getting to the point where there's going to be more personalization too, is going back to a consultant's going to have different needs than an educator.

我们刚刚到达这样的阶段，个性化也将变得更加个性化，回到咨询师与教育者将有不同的需求。

Educator's trying to engage their students.

教育者试图吸引学生。

They may want to have language or visuals are more animated and that makes sense.

他们可能希望语言或视觉效果更加生动，这是有道理的。

Consultant can't get away with that.

顾问无法摆脱这一点。

They may need something that is much more structured or information dense.

他们可能需要更加结构化或信息密集的东西。

And so again, how do we actually be the same tool that can serve both of those needs?

再说一遍，我们如何才能真正成为能够满足这两种需求的同一个工具呢？

I think that's where it becomes interesting and it's almost like there isn't necessarily even a "best model".

我认为这就是它变得有趣的地方，而且几乎不一定有“最佳模型”。

It's like what's the right model for that particular user?

就像对于特定用户来说什么是正确的模型？

That's actually a much harder problem to solve and we're just starting to try to embrace some of that now.

这实际上是一个更难解决的问题，我们现在才开始尝试解决其中的一些问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there one that's just like, "Oh, that's actually really cool." For something that we didn't expect?

Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个就像，“哦，那真的很酷。”为了一些我们没有预料到的事情？

Grant Lee: Early on, things like creating the outline, Perplexity was actually great.

Grant Lee：早期，像创建轮廓这样的事情，《困惑》实际上很棒。

Not one that people talk about as often, but creating the outline and doing web search and actually integrating some of those elements together for us was pretty powerful.

这不是人们经常谈论的一个，但创建大纲、进行网络搜索以及实际上将其中一些元素整合在一起对我们来说是非常强大的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, there's two more things I want to talk about.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我还有两件事想谈。

One is pricing.

一是定价。

How you guys figured out your approach to pricing.

你们是如何想出定价方法的。

You guys started monetizing really early and that feels like such an important piece to AI startups because you're spending real money on an inference and other things.

你们很早就开始盈利，这对人工智能初创公司来说是非常重要的一部分，因为你们在推理和其他事情上花了真金白银。

And then I want to talk about hiring.

然后我想谈谈招聘的问题。

So in terms of pricing, when did you decide it was time to really start charging and then how did you pick your approach to pricing your actual price?

那么在定价方面，您什么时候决定真正开始收费，然后您如何选择为实际价格定价的方法？

Grant Lee: So we kind of stumbled into having to do pricing and packaging.

Grant Lee：所以我们偶然发现必须进行定价和包装。

I mentioned our big AI launch in March 2023.

我提到了我们在 2023 年 3 月推出的大型人工智能产品。

This was pre-revenue, so we wanted just to get, we focused all of our effort on the first 30 seconds, literally all hands on deck, just trying to get that right.

这是在收入之前，所以我们只想做到这一点，我们将所有努力集中在前 30 秒，实际上所有的人都在甲板上，只是想把它做好。

And we spent zero time on actually monetization.

我们在实际货币化上花费的时间为零。

So we had a credit system.

所以我们有一个信用体系。

All new users get 400 credits.

所有新用户均可获得 400 积分。

Once they burn through those credits, there was actually nothing more you could do with AI.

一旦他们耗尽了这些积分，实际上你就无法用人工智能做更多的事情了。

It kind of just got cut off.

它就这样被切断了。

And so Intercom for us was just blowing up with people saying, "How do I purchase more credits?

因此，对讲机对我们来说简直就是爆炸，人们说：“我如何购买更多积分？

I want to keep using this thing." In a very fair question.

我想继续使用这个东西。”这是一个非常公平的问题。

So basically all of April we ended up having to do a quick sort of pricing and packaging exercise.

所以基本上整个四月份我们都不得不进行快速的定价和包装工作。

We did a couple of different things.

我们做了几件不同的事情。

Grant Lee: We did run a form of Van Westendorp, which is just understanding-

格兰特·李（Grant Lee）：我们确实运行了范韦斯滕多普（Van Westendorp）的一种形式，这只是理解-

Grant Lee: ...what is the overall willingness to pay.

Grant Lee：……总体支付意愿是多少？

And so we did use that.

所以我们确实使用了它。

We did kind of integrate some forms of conjoint analysis, which is just trying to understand what are the features or things that people actually value in your product.

我们确实整合了某些形式的联合分析，这只是试图了解人们在您的产品中真正看重的功能或事物是什么。

And so we'd survey a lot of our early users and ended up coming to a price point that was, in the beginning we only had one plan type.

因此，我们对很多早期用户进行了调查，最终得出一个价格点，即一开始我们只有一种计划类型。

It was roughly like 20 bucks a month.

每个月大概20块钱左右。

Part of this was also just realizing we almost didn't need to overthink it too much because this is when the initial wave of AI companies and startups were coming out and products are coming out and you almost end up becoming anchored by, what does ChatGPT charge?

部分原因是我们意识到我们几乎不需要考虑太多，因为这是第一波人工智能公司和初创公司出现、产品问世的时候，你几乎最终会被“ChatGPT 收费”所吸引？

Because everyone becomes familiar with that price point.

因为每个人都熟悉这个价格点。

And so we ask ourselves how complicated do we want to make it?

所以我们问自己，我们想让它变得多复杂？

Grant Lee: We always default to remove friction, make it as easy as possible for a user to understand.

Grant Lee：我们总是默认消除摩擦，让用户尽可能容易理解。

And so we end up coming up with a similar price point and ship that as the V1, basically end of May 2023.

因此，我们最终得出了与 V1 类似的价格点，并基本上在 2023 年 5 月下旬发货。

And for us, we wanted to see a couple of things like, okay, we have the initial price point.

对于我们来说，我们希望看到一些事情，比如，好吧，我们有初始价格点。

Is it economical for us at that price point?

在这个价位上对我们来说经济吗？

Are we actually making money?

我们真的赚钱了吗？

And we'd monitor there for that for many, many months realizing that yes, actually at that price point we could still generate pretty good margins and that would allow us to reinvest that profit back into growing the business.

我们对此进行了很多很多个月的监控，意识到是的，实际上在这个价格点上我们仍然可以产生相当不错的利润，这将使我们能够将利润重新投资到业务增长上。

Grant Lee: Continue to add obviously head count, but then also investing even more into inference costs, whatever we wanted to do to experiment broadly with AI.

Grant Lee：显然，继续增加人员数量，但随后也会在推理成本上投入更多资金，无论我们想做什么来广泛试验人工智能。

And so we've always had that pricing and packaging.

所以我们一直有这样的定价和包装。

Does it not only need to be easy to understand for a user, obviously you have to have strong conversion rates, but it should be something where you feel like you could build an enduring durable business off of.

它是否不仅需要易于用户理解，显然你必须拥有强大的转化率，而且还应该让你觉得你可以建立持久的业务。

And if it's not right, then you can always go back and try to tweak things, but it's something you should be monitoring as early as possible.

如果不正确，那么您可以随时返回并尝试进行调整，但您应该尽早进行监控。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's interesting, we have the head of ChatGPT on the podcast and he shared the way they picked ChatGPT's prices is the Van Westendorp survey that they ran in Google Forms.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，我们在播客上邀请了 ChatGPT 的负责人，他分享了他们选择 ChatGPT 价格的方式是他们在 Google Forms 中进行的 Van Westendorp 调查。

Grant Lee: Totally.

格兰特·李：完全可以。

Yeah, I listened to that one.

是的，我听过那首。

Yeah, it was a great one.

是的，这是一件很棒的事。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, what a, that survey man, what a, and not only just that survey being the slick, I'm imagining that XKCD comic with the open source little, I don't know, block holding up the entire world, like this one little piece of code.

Lenny Rachitsky：哦，多么棒，那个调查员，多么棒，不仅仅是那个调查是圆滑的，我想象着 XKCD 漫画与开源小，我不知道，阻止了整个世界，就像这一小段代码一样。

That's like the survey, just behind everything.

这就像调查一样，就在一切的背后。

But it's interesting how that one decision just created this ripple effect on all AI startups, 20 bucks a month.

但有趣的是，这个决定如何对所有人工智能初创公司产生了连锁反应，每月 20 美元。

Of course that's what everyone's doing.

当然，这就是每个人都在做的事情。

Grant Lee: Totally.

格兰特·李：完全可以。

Who knows what would happen if they chose a different number, but here we are.

谁知道如果他们选择不同的数字会发生什么，但我们来了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Everyone would be so much more rich if it's just like 25 bucks.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果只有 25 美元，每个人都会变得更加富有。

Someone.

有人。

Imagine the GDP of growth-

想象一下GDP的增长——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...from that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……从那以后。

Oh man.

噢，伙计。

Okay.

好的。

And then the way, so was Van Westendorp helped you pick a price point and then you said this conjoint analysis, we actually have a guest post that I think describes how to do this well and if not we'll find, appoint people to how to actually approach this.

然后，范韦斯滕多普（Van Westendorp）帮助你选择了一个价格点，然后你说了这个联合分析，我们实际上有一篇客座文章，我认为它描述了如何做好这件事，如果没有，我们会找到，指定人员如何实际处理这个问题。

You started charging, so was post product launch, you launch with no paid features.

你开始收费，产品发布后也是如此，你发布的产品没有付费功能。

People were just like, "I want to pay, I want to keep using this." You're like, "Okay, I guess we've got to start charging."

人们就像是，“我想付费，我想继续使用这个。”你会说，“好吧，我想我们必须开始充电了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything, looking back, I guess just you wish you'd known when you were approaching pricing for folks that are doing this now like, "Oh, we should have done this differently or should have thought about this."

Lenny Rachitsky：回想起来，有什么事情吗？我想你只是希望自己在为现在这样做的人定价时知道，“哦，我们应该以不同的方式做这件事，或者应该考虑一下这一点。”

Grant Lee: Yeah, I mean that one's hard.

格兰特·李：是的，我的意思是这很难。

I think you never want to obviously just throw something together without giving it much thought, but for us with limited resources, we focused on the only thing we thought mattered, which was getting some initial users and having that organic growth.

我认为你显然不想在没有经过太多考虑的情况下将一些东西放在一起，但对于资源有限的我们来说，我们专注于我们认为唯一重要的事情，那就是获得一些初始用户并实现有机增长。

And I think there's maybe two checkpoints of thinking about whether or not you feel like you have product market fit.

我认为可能有两个检查点来思考你是否觉得自己的产品适合市场。

I think one checkpoint is organic growth.

我认为一个检查点是有机增长。

The second is are people willing to pay for the product?

第二是人们愿意为产品付费吗？

And I think if you pass both those, you feel like you've, at least within some pocket of the market you have some PMF.

我认为，如果您通过了这两点，您就会感觉自己至少在市场的某些领域拥有了一些 PMF。

So I think those are both important questions to ask depending on your resources.

因此，我认为根据您的资源，这些都是重要的问题。

Ideally you can do kind of both and experiment a little bit along at the same time.

理想情况下，您可以同时进行两者并进行一些实验。

And then by the time you actually have paying users, you sort of check some of those boxes for yourself.

然后，当您真正拥有付费用户时，您可以自己勾选其中一些框。

Lenny Rachitsky: By the way, I love that your launch pricing.

Lenny Rachitsky：顺便说一句，我喜欢你们的发布定价。

You're like, "Okay, let's figure out if we're actually making money or not." It's not obvious with AI companies.

你会说，“好吧，让我们看看我们是否真的赚钱了。”对于人工智能公司来说，这一点并不明显。

Grant Lee: Well, we also didn't have a choice because at that point runway was also low.

格兰特·李：嗯，我们也没有选择，因为当时跑道也很低。

So if we weren't making money, well we would actually be in a tough spot.

因此，如果我们不赚钱，我们实际上就会陷入困境。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a good point that you did not have a huge amount of money sitting around to spend on the way a lot of companies in AI do, just, "We'll deal with it and we'll figure out how to make money later."

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的观点，你不需要像许多人工智能公司那样花大量的钱，只是，“我们会处理它，稍后我们会弄清楚如何赚钱。”

Grant Lee: Totally.

格兰特·李：完全可以。

Within a couple of months we had hit a million in ARR and became profitable.

几个月之内，我们的 ARR 就达到了 100 万，并实现了盈利。

And so those were both two exciting milestones for a company that months prior were heads down figuring out how we even survive.

因此，对于一家公司来说，这都是两个令人兴奋的里程碑，几个月前，我们正在埋头思考如何生存。

Lenny Rachitsky: What a story.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：真是一个故事。

I'm so excited to be telling this story.

我很高兴能讲述这个故事。

Okay, final topic I want to talk about is hiring.

好吧，我想谈的最后一个话题是招聘。

You have some really hot takes on hiring, clearly it's worked out for you guys.

你们对招聘有一些非常热门的看法，显然这很适合你们。

What are some things you've learned about hiring well, what is your approach to hiring?

关于如何做好招聘，您学到了哪些知识？您的招聘方法是什么？

Grant Lee: So we had this mantra internally, I mean even before the sort of AI launch for us, which was "Hire painfully slowly." And I think the temptation is once things start working, you just start, scaling this thing and start adding more and more headcount.

Grant Lee：所以我们内部就有这样的口头禅，我的意思是甚至在我们推出人工智能之前，那就是“缓慢地痛苦地招聘”。我认为，一旦事情开始发挥作用，你就开始扩大规模，并开始增加越来越多的员工人数。

And for us that always, I don't know, that didn't feel right.

对于我们来说，我不知道，这总是感觉不对。

We wanted to build the team very thoughtfully, be lean, but also be a team that every individual feels like they have high amount of impact that they have on a daily basis.

我们希望非常深思熟虑地建立团队，保持精简，但同时也要成为一个让每个人都觉得自己每天都有很大影响力的团队。

And so for us that was from sort of the very beginning.

对我们来说，这从一开始就是如此。

And so even as we've scaled up, I think we've been super efficient by nature of just being a very lean team.

因此，即使我们扩大了规模，我认为我们本质上还是一支非常精简的团队，效率非常高。

Lenny Rachitsky: So I think a lot of people hear this advice of "Stay lean, be efficient." You have some even more concrete pieces of advice here of just what that looks like.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我认为很多人都听到过“保持精益，高效”的建议。您在这里有一些更具体的建议，说明它是什么样子的。

You have a huge, I don't know, philosophy of just huge leverage per person.

我不知道你有一个巨大的哲学，即每个人都有巨大的影响力。

You focus a lot on revenue per employee.

您非常关注每位员工的收入。

Talk about that.

谈谈那个。

Grant Lee: So obviously we look at things like revenue per employee, but we never let that be the sort of North Star.

Grant Lee：很明显，我们会关注每位员工的收入等因素，但我们永远不会让它成为北极星。

It's not something that dictates our strategy per se.

这本身并不决定我们的策略。

Same thing with profitability.

盈利能力也是如此。

I think by being efficient, that ends up becoming a side effect of yeah, we are profitable and growing.

我认为，通过提高效率，这最终会成为我们盈利和增长的副作用。

But I think for us more is like we care a ton about adding the right team members.

但我认为对我们来说更多的是我们非常关心添加合适的团队成员。

So it's easy.

所以这很容易。

You can almost sort of shoot yourself in the foot as a founder by just setting the wrong goals.

作为一名创始人，如果设定了错误的目标，你几乎可能会搬起石头砸自己的脚。

If your goal is to double in headcount and add a hundred people to the company, then that becomes the goal.

如果您的目标是将员工人数增加一倍并为公司增加一百人，那么这就是目标。

The goal is no longer to add the best people.

目标不再是增加最优秀的人才。

It's no longer to maintain a high quality bar.

不再是维持高品质吧。

The goal is to hit a hundred people and that's everything everyone's focused on.

我们的目标是打击一百个人，这是每个人都关注的事情。

So then guess what?

那么你猜怎么着？

Grant Lee: If that's the goal, then the thing that ends up dropping is, okay, maybe we will settle for employees that are good enough and we're going to make sure we get to that hundred because a hundred is going to help us get to the next phase of growth.

格兰特·李：如果这是目标，那么最终会下降的是，好吧，也许我们会满足于足够优秀的员工，我们将确保达到一百名员工，因为一百名员工将帮助我们进入下一阶段的增长。

And then the next phase of growth.

然后是下一阶段的增长。

And I think we've tried to resist that temptation, which is we want everybody that comes through the door and joins our team to really be the type of person that represents Gamma.

我认为我们已经努力抵制这种诱惑，我们希望每个进来并加入我们团队的人都真正成为代表 Gamma 的人。

Our first 10 to 12 employees, we spent so much time really getting the DNA right.

我们在最初的 10 到 12 名员工中花了很多时间来真正弄清 DNA 的正确性。

I think Brian Chesky talks about this.

我认为布莱恩·切斯基谈到了这一点。

Your goal is you get that first 10 and you want to be able to then replicate the next 10 and then replicate the next 10, but that 10 needs to be all super cohesive.

您的目标是获得前 10 个，然后希望能够复制接下来的 10 个，然后复制接下来的 10 个，但这 10 个需要全部具有超级凝聚力。

You need to have the same shared values, same principles, same ambition, same vision, and if you don't, then what are you even replicating?

你们需要有相同的共同价值观、相同的原则、相同的抱负、相同的愿景，如果你没有，那么你还在复制什么？

Grant Lee: Right?

格兰特·李：对吗？

At that point you're just adding headcount and you can easily just be adding headcount because we're chasing the next shiny startup to join.

那时，您只需增加员工人数，并且您可以轻松地增加员工人数，因为我们正在追逐下一个闪亮的初创公司加入。

And so for us, we really focused on that first 10.

所以对我们来说，我们真正关注的是前 10 个。

That allows us to really have this sort of community of teammates that basically want to stick around.

这让我们真正拥有了这样一个基本上想要留下来的队友社区。

A lot of founders think about not wanting to have a leaky bucket on the product side, but the same thing applies on the team side.

许多创始人都认为不想在产品方面出现漏桶，但同样的事情也适用于团队方面。

If you have a leaky bucket, people are just constantly leaving, revolving door.

如果你有一个漏桶，人们就会不断地离开，就像旋转门一样。

That's a huge amount of cost.

这是一笔巨大的成本。

The continuity cost is massive and it's really hard to quantify.

连续性成本是巨大的，而且很难量化。

Grant Lee: And I mentioned our first 10 employees, all 10 of them are still here today, five years later.

Grant Lee：我提到了我们的前 10 名员工，五年后的今天，这 10 名员工都还在这里。

And so that sort of continuity, it means that you have this tribal knowledge that sticks with you.

因此，这种连续性意味着你拥有与你相伴的部落知识。

It means that people can continue building and having that sort of cohesive feeling.

这意味着人们可以继续建立并拥有那种凝聚力。

So I think that's one piece that's just like, it's hard to quantify, but I do think, new startups I would advise just to really be thoughtful about that, get that to a point where you really feel confident that as you're adding the next 10 and next hundred, you're actually replicating the same DNA and not actually just adding a bunch of random people to the company.

所以我认为这很难量化，但我确实认为，我建议新的初创公司认真考虑一下这一点，让你真正有信心，当你添加下一个 10 个和下一个一百个时，你实际上是在复制相同的 DNA，而不是实际上只是向公司添加一群随机人员。

Lenny Rachitsky: One of your very specific piece of advice is hire generalists versus someone that's just really deep in one thing, why is that so important?

Lenny Rachitsky：您的一个非常具体的建议是雇用多面手而不是只专注于一件事的人，为什么这如此重要？

What does that look like?

那看起来像什么？

Grant Lee: This very much feels like the age of the generalist or the rise of the generalist right now.

格兰特·李（Grant Lee）：这非常感觉像是多面手的时代或多面手的崛起。

When we think about of a team that can be really flat, you still want people that can be very spiky in certain areas.

当我们考虑一个可以非常扁平的团队时，你仍然希望人们在某些领域可以非常尖刻。

So for instance, obviously a product designer that knows how to code, that's great.

例如，显然一个知道如何编码的产品设计师，那就太好了。

It allows you to actually span across many different domains.

它允许您实际上跨越许多不同的领域。

And again, an organization that's super flat, when you're wearing a lot of different hats, that means every individual, if you're a generalist, you can wear by default a lot of different hats.

再说一遍，一个超级扁平的组织，当你戴着很多不同的帽子时，这意味着每个人，如果你是一个多面手，默认情况下你可以戴很多不同的帽子。

And that's helped us just maintain this idea that the work, the opportunity in front of us can easily expand.

这帮助我们保持这样的想法：我们面前的工作和机会可以轻松扩展。

Each person plays a huge role.

每个人都发挥着巨大的作用。

They don't need to wait and ask for permission.

他们不需要等待并请求许可。

They can go after and pick up a piece of work because it's there and they can at least get it started even if they're not the one that always sees it through.

他们可以追求并拿起一件作品，因为它就在那里，即使他们不是那个总是能看到它的人，他们至少可以开始它。

Grant Lee: And so for us, I do think this rise of the generalist is going to be important.

格兰特·李：对我们来说，我确实认为多面手的崛起非常重要。

You can always augment that by working with contractors or agencies that are hyper-specialized in certain areas.

您始终可以通过与在某些领域高度专业化的承包商或机构合作来增强这一点。

And this is where, for instance, going back to influencer marketing, you might work with an agency rather than kind of scale up your own influencer marketing team.

例如，回到影响者营销，您可能会与代理机构合作，而不是扩大自己的影响者营销团队。

You work with a hyper-specialized team there.

你在那里与一个超​​专业的团队一起工作。

But my marketing team is all generalists.

但我的营销团队都是多面手。

Our head of marketing more recently launched this cool drone show in San Francisco.

我们的营销主管最近在旧金山推出了这场很酷的无人机表演。

We have 4,000 people in San Francisco.

我们在旧金山有 4,000 名员工。

The mayor came by, she created that entire project and managed that entire project end to end herself while also managing the entire marketing team.

市长过来了，她创建了整个项目，并亲自管理整个项目，同时还管理整个营销团队。

And so it's like this idea that a generalist is able to play all these different roles, can still be super high impact.

因此，就像这个想法一样，多面手能够扮演所有这些不同的角色，仍然可以产生超高的影响力。

For us, it also goes hand in hand with, I mentioned sort of this other role, which is the player coach.

对于我们来说，它也与我提到的另一个角色齐头并进，那就是球员教练。

Traditional management layer is like a manager manages a ton of people and that's kind of their core focus.

传统的管理层就像一个经理管理着很多人，这是他们的核心关注点。

Grant Lee: All of our people leaders are player coaches in that they still do the end work themselves and they can mentor and coach those around them.

格兰特·李：我们所有的领导者都是球员教练，因为他们仍然自己完成最终工作，并且可以指导和指导周围的人。

This analogy came from, or this mindset came from, it's something I borrowed from just the sports world in general because there's a lot of sports that just move incredibly fast.

这个类比来自，或者这种心态来自，这是我从整个体育界借用的东西，因为有很多运动的速度都非常快。

Like football for instance, it moves really, really fast.

例如，就像足球一样，它的移动速度非常非常快。

And so you might have a coach that's calling into play, but the quarterback can actually make a last-minute adjustment based on what he's seeing the defense do.

因此，你可能有一位教练在指挥比赛，但四分卫实际上可以根据他看到的防守情况做出最后一刻的调整。

And so you want a player that is on the field that can adapt as needed and that way the coach doesn't have to call every single thing in.

所以你需要一名在场上能够根据需要进行调整的球员，这样教练就不必把所有事情都召集起来。

He's just kind of giving you the general intent of what you want to run as the play and then the quarterback can still make the adjustments.

他只是给你提供了你想要进行的比赛的总体意图，然后四分卫仍然可以做出调整。

Grant Lee: And so all of our people leaders, our management layer is all folks that actually can make those adjustments.

格兰特·李：因此，我们所有的领导者、管理层都是真正能够做出这些调整的人。

If they're seeing something that doesn't feel right on a daily or weekly basis, they're adjusting priorities for that team and they're still doing the work themselves too.

如果他们每天或每周发现一些感觉不对劲的事情，他们就会调整该团队的优先级，并且他们自己也会做这些工作。

They're so close to it that they understand what is the relative prioritization at all times.

他们非常接近它，以至于他们始终了解相对优先级是什么。

So both of those I think have been, when I think about founders, they oftentimes think about innovation in the sense, we're going to innovate on products or innovate on technology.

所以我认为，当我想到创始人时，他们经常会考虑创新，即我们将在产品上进行创新或在技术上进行创新。

I think every founder today has a chance to innovate on org design, and that starts by just thinking about what is the type of company we want to build today?

我认为今天的每个创始人都有机会在组织设计上进行创新，而首先要思考我们今天想要建立的公司类型是什么？

What does it mean?

这是什么意思？

And when it comes to the management later, what type of sort of leaders do we hire?

那么到了管理层面，我们要聘用什么样的领导者呢？

What does it mean when it comes to hiring specific roles and specific functions?

招聘特定角色和特定职能意味着什么？

All of that is a chance for you to be very thoughtful and build a company that you're excited to be at for hopefully many, many years to come.

所有这些都是你深思熟虑并建立一家你很高兴能在未来很多很多年里加入的公司的机会。

Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing here is manager, there's no pure managers at Gamma and your plan is to not have people that are just managing the ideas.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我在这里听到的是经理，Gamma 没有纯粹的经理，你的计划是不让人们只管理想法。

Everyone, even a manager is doing their own IC work.

每个人，甚至经理，都在做自己的 IC 工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then the other piece of advice here is just generalists.

Lenny Rachitsky：这里的另一条建议只是通才。

People that can do a lot of stuff, and I hear this a lot on this podcast just like everyone is, there's no more just like you're a designer, that's all you're going to do.

可以做很多事情的人，我在这个播客上经常听到这样的话，就像每个人一样，不再像你是设计师一样，这就是你要做的一切。

Designers need to build stuff, market stuff, write some PRDs probably.

设计师需要构建东西、营销东西，可能还需要编写一些 PRD。

Grant Lee: Just one thing to add is that's where we are at today.

Grant Lee：需要补充的一件事是，这就是我们今天所处的位置。

I think being adaptable means that certain things may evolve and change and how the player coach model evolves and maybe in certain functions or as the team scales, that's not going to be practical everywhere.

我认为适应性意味着某些事情可能会发展和变化，以及球员教练模式如何发展，也许在某些职能或团队规模中，这并不适用于所有地方。

I think the reality is you just have to know and be willing to adopt different frameworks over time and being honest with yourself with what's working, what's not.

我认为现实是，你只需要了解并愿意随着时间的推移采用不同的框架，并对自己诚实地了解哪些是有效的，哪些是无效的。

I think we're constantly trying to learn and evolve ourselves.

我认为我们不断地努力学习和发展自己。

I think we're doing it in a way that we don't believe it really has been done before, and so we have to kind of pave our own path over time.

我认为我们正在以一种我们不相信以前真正做过的方式来做这件事，所以我们必须随着时间的推移铺平我们自己的道路。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Giving yourself an out when the time comes when you need to just hire managers.

当你需要雇佣经理时，给自己一个机会。

Grant Lee: A year later when you invite me back, I'll say, "Yeah, this is what we learned."

格兰特·李：一年后，当你邀请我回来时，我会说，“是的，这就是我们学到的东西。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that makes sense.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，这是有道理的。

That's probably going to happen.

这可能会发生。

It's like people are like, "We don't need product managers." "I see.

就像人们会说，“我们不需要产品经理。” “我明白了。

Maybe we do." Yeah, that makes sense.

也许我们会。”是的，这是有道理的。

One last piece I want to talk about is you have this really cool quote that you shared on Twitter.

我想谈的最后一点是，您在 Twitter 上分享了这句非常酷的引言。

" When you find someone exceptional, bet big on them." This is a big part of your philosophy is just bet big on the people that are doing super well.

“当你发现某个人很出色时，就在他们身上下大赌注。”这是你的哲学的一个重要部分，就是把赌注押在那些做得超级好的人身上。

Just talk about what that looks like and why that's so important.

只需谈谈它是什么样子以及为什么它如此重要。

Grant Lee: Yeah, I mean this starts top of the funnel, which is you meet candidates, you decide who you actually hire.

格兰特·李：是的，我的意思是这从漏斗的顶部开始，即你遇到候选人，你决定你实际雇用谁。

And so if you don't start with a high bar there, going back to what is the goal?

因此，如果你不从一个高标准开始，那么回到目标是什么？

The goal is to hit a hiring target versus maintaining a super high quality hiring bar.

目标是实现招聘目标，而不是维持超高质量的招聘标准。

Those are different goals and I don't think we've ever kind of dropped our bar.

这些是不同的目标，我认为我们从未放弃过我们的目标。

And so then you bring somebody in that you think is exceptional, that brings something unique to the table, that can be a good teammate.

然后你引入一个你认为很出色的人，他可以给球队带来一些独特的东西，可以成为一个好的队友。

When they're thriving, you just give them more and more resources.

当他们蓬勃发展时，你只需为他们提供越来越多的资源即可。

I think what you realize, another sports analogy is when you're on an A team for instance, or a team that you feel like is exceptional, A players want actually more playing time.

我想你会意识到，另一个体育类比是，例如，当你在一支 A 队，或者一支你认为很出色的球队时，A 级球员实际上想要更多的上场时间。

You never see a star player that says "I actually want less playing time."

你从来没有见过哪个明星球员会说“我实际上想要更少的上场时间”。

Grant Lee: They want more time on the field, they want to actually go after the hardest problems.

格兰特·李：他们想要更多的时间在球场上，他们想要真正解决最困难的问题。

They want to be able to feel like they're making a huge impact.

他们希望能够感受到自己正在产生巨大的影响。

And so if you have fewer exceptional teammates where you can just throw almost anything at them and they'll figure it out, that feels for you as a team, just feels great because then they get what they find rewarding, which is the ability to go after hard hairy problems and to be able to come out through the other end feeling like they've accomplished something.

因此，如果你的优秀队友较少，你可以向他们扔几乎任何东西，他们都会解决，这对你作为一个团队来说感觉很好，因为这样他们就会得到他们认为有价值的东西，那就是有能力去解决棘手的问题，并能够从另一端走出来，感觉自己已经完成了一些事情。

And I think that for us has always been something that goes beyond just almost everything else.

我认为对我们来说，这一直是超越几乎所有其他事情的事情。

We give people a chance to really thrive in this environment and we try to nurture that as much as humanly possible every step of the way.

我们为人们提供在这种环境中真正茁壮成长的机会，并在每一步中尽人所能地培育这种机会。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else around hiring that you think is really important or a big lesson you've learned or lesson you share that we haven't talked about yet?

Lenny Rachitsky：关于招聘，还有什么您认为真正重要的事情，或者您学到的重要教训或您分享的教训，但我们还没有讨论过吗？

Grant Lee: I mean, there's some of these intangibles, which is for the founding team, does this feel like this could be your life's work?

Grant Lee：我的意思是，有一些无形资产是给创始团队的，你觉得这可能是你一生的工作吗？

When you're pitching a potential candidate, does this feel like something where you're actually committed?

当你向潜在候选人推销时，你是否感觉自己真正投入了精力？

The unfortunate side of a lot of what's happening in the AI world broadly is I think you're coming to learn which founders are sort of missionaries versus mercenaries.

人工智能世界中发生的许多事情的不幸的一面是，我认为你会了解到哪些创始人是传教士而不是雇佣兵。

And many that were just chasing maybe just a big outcome, or something shiny, or something to feel good about themselves, they'll go off and then the company, I guess doesn't live on or maybe has to find a different way, a different path.

许多人只是追逐一个大的结果，或者一些闪亮的东西，或者一些自我感觉良好的东西，他们会离开，然后公司，我想不会继续存在，或者可能必须找到不同的方式，不同的道路。

Grant Lee: And so something I admire is you look at some of the founders, obviously before this sort of AI era, folks like Dylan or Melanie, Figma, Canva, Ivan at Notion, they've been doing this for over a decade now.

Grant Lee：所以我钦佩的是你看看一些创始人，显然是在这种人工智能时代之前，像 Dylan 或 Melanie、Figma、Canva、Notion 的 Ivan 这样的人，他们已经这样做了十多年了。

They had many chances to just leave and sunset off into doing whatever they wanted to do, but they care so much about the mission, they've stuck it through.

他们有很多机会离开，然后去做他们想做的事情，但他们非常关心这项任务，所以他们坚持了下来。

And I think when you're talking to candidates, candidates can kind of tell, is this something the founders even care about?

我认为当你与候选人交谈时，候选人可以看出，这是创始人关心的事情吗？

And I think you're going to have a better chance of attracting true missionaries, people that want to build with you for the long haul, if it's authentic and it's something you actually care about.

我认为，如果它是真实的并且是你真正关心的事情，你将有更好的机会吸引真正的传教士，那些想要与你长期合作的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, I keep saying this.

Lenny Rachitsky：天哪，我一直这么说。

I feel like we could have at least five more hours of stuff to talk about.

我觉得我们至少还有五个小时的时间可以讨论。

That'll be good content for when you come back and you're making a billion dollars a year.

当你回来并且每年赚十亿美元时，这将是很好的满足。

Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, Grant, is there anything else that you think is important for people to hear?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，格兰特，您认为人们还有什么重要的事情要听吗？

Any last, I don't know, lesson you want to double down on?

我不知道最后一课你想加倍努力吗？

Anything you want to leave listeners with?

您有什么想留给听众的吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah, I mean, just going back to the original story of that was probably the ultimate low point.

格兰特·李：是的，我的意思是，回到最初的故事可能是最终的低点。

Having an investor that spent 20 minutes listening to my pitch, telling me that it was the worst thing, worst idea in the world.

有一位投资者花了 20 分钟听我的演讲，告诉我这是世界上最糟糕的事情、最糟糕的想法。

I think throughout the journey there's going to be those low moments.

我认为在整个旅程中都会有那些低谷时刻。

And when I think about being a founder and working a startup, you're honestly just trying to increase your luck surface area as much as possible.

当我想到成为一名创始人并在一家初创公司工作时，老实说，你只是想尽可能地增加你的运气表面积。

And for me, luck surface area has two dimensions.

对我来说，运气表面积有两个维度。

The first dimension is people.

第一个维度是人。

Who are you surrounding yourself with that share your same ambition, share the same values, same principles, and find those people and then give yourself enough time to prove that you guys can accomplish great things.

你周围的人是谁，与你有着相同的抱负、相同的价值观、相同的原则，找到这些人，然后给自己足够的时间来证明你们能够完成伟大的事情。

I'm lucky to have two amazing co-founders.

我很幸运有两位出色的联合创始人。

We've been working on this thing for five years.

我们已经在这件事上努力了五年。

There's 0% chance we'd be where we are if I didn't have them.

如果我没有它们，我们达到现在的水平的可能性是 0%。

And we've had to overcome a lot.

我们必须克服很多困难。

But I guess for us it's like creating that own luck over a long time horizon has been the only way that it's been possible.

但我想对我们来说，从长远来看，创造自己的运气是唯一可能的方法。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, it's clearly showing in the success you guys are having.

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，你们所取得的成功清楚地表明了这一点。

Grant, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

格兰特，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: All right.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

第一个问题，您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Grant Lee: Yeah, so I'll give one that's for pre-product market fit folks and the one post-product market fits.

Grant Lee：是的，所以我会提供一款适合产品前市场的产品和适合产品后市场的产品。

Grant Lee: Pre-product market fit I would say is Shoe Dog, which is written by Phil Knight, founder of Nike.

Grant Lee：预产品市场契合度我想说的是 Shoe Dog，它是 Nike 创始人 Phil Knight 写的。

And he talks about two things.

他谈到了两件事。

One, you should chase your sort of crazy ideas, but these should be ideas you're passionate about.

第一，你应该追逐你那种疯狂的想法，但这些应该是你热衷的想法。

He was an athlete, and so not surprisingly, he focused a lot about creating tools or shoes in this case for other athletes and was passionate about that.

他是一名运动员，因此毫不奇怪，他专注于为其他运动员创造工具或鞋子，并且对此充满热情。

And the second thing he taught me was going back to the team thing, he surrounded himself with other people that were super passionate about athletics and shoes as well.

他教我的第二件事就是回到团队的事情上，他周围都是对运动和鞋子充满热情的人。

And so the folks that he had as his initial startup crew were all that.

所以他最初的创业团队就是这样的人。

Grant Lee: And I think that gives you a chance of overcoming a ton, where you're focused on problems you actually care about solving, and you're dealing with a team that shares the same ambition as you.

格兰特·李：我认为这给了你克服很多困难的机会，你可以专注于你真正关心解决的问题，并且你正在与一个与你有着相同雄心的团队打交道。

Post-product market fit, there's a book called 7 Powers by Hamilton Helmer, where I think when you think about how to build a durable business, there's so much in there.

产品后市场契合，汉密尔顿·赫尔默（Hamilton Helmer）写了一本名为《7 Powers》的书，我认为当你思考如何建立持久的业务时，里面有很多东西。

I think there's a lot that you can kind of read and reread as you kind of evolve and hit new milestones yourself.

我认为，随着你自己的发展和达到新的里程碑，你可以阅读和重读很多东西。

And so much of that can be both tactical but also zooming out and thinking about what are the big picture strategic questions you as a founding team you need to be thinking about.

其中很多既可以是战术性的，也可以是缩小范围并思考作为创始团队需要考虑的大局战略问题。

So both are great.

所以两者都很棒。

Lenny Rachitsky: Hamilton was on the podcast, we'll link to that episode.

Lenny Rachitsky：汉密尔顿在播客上，我们将链接到该集。

I also love that book.

我也喜欢那本书。

Many people mention it.

很多人都提到过。

Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

下一个问题，您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah, The Lazarus Project is one, I'm a huge sucker for time travel and sci-fi, so this is one I just started watching.

格兰特·李：是的，《拉撒路计划》就是其中之一，我非常喜欢时间旅行和科幻小说，所以这是我刚刚开始看的一部。

And for me, it has all the right ingredients for a fun show.

对我来说，它具备了一场有趣的表演的所有正确要素。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a product you recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的产品吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah, I mentioned this already, Voicepanel.

Grant Lee：是的，我已经提到过这一点，Voicepanel。

So again, a full disclosure angel investor, but we've been using it and going back to kind of being a cheat code for folks that are starting to experiment a ton with different ideas, vibe coding, maybe some of these might get this into the hands of users, hear what they think about it.

再说一次，一个完全披露的天使投资者，但我们一直在使用它，并回到了一种作弊代码，供那些开始尝试大量不同想法的人使用，氛围编码，也许其中一些可能会将其交到用户手中，听听他们的想法。

I think, and honestly can help speed up a lot of things and save you time from wasting time on the wrong ideas or ideas where there's no market.

我认为，诚实地可以帮助加快很多事情，并节省您的时间，避免将时间浪费在错误的想法或没有市场的想法上。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a life motto that you often find yourself coming back to in work or in life?

Lenny Rachitsky：您在工作或生活中经常会想起什么人生座右铭吗？

Grant Lee: Yeah, so there's this Chinese idiom that my mom used to say, it's a [foreign language 01:50:24] which the translation is "A frog at the bottom of a well".

Grant Lee：是的，我妈妈曾经说过这个中国成语，这是一个[外语01:50:24]，翻译过来就是“井底之蛙”。

And the story is like there's a frog at the bottom of the well.

这个故事就像井底有一只青蛙。

He looks up every night and he sees the world and he imagines he knows everything about the world.

他每天晚上都抬头看世界，他想象自己知道世界上的一切。

And then one day a bird comes along and describes all the things that he sees, the ocean, the mountains, and the frog realizes that what he sees is just such a limited part of the world and the bird asks, "Do you want to come join me?" And kind of see the rest of it.

然后有一天，一只鸟出现并描述了他所看到的所有事物，海洋，山脉，青蛙意识到他所看到的只是世界的有限部分，鸟问：“你想和我一起吗？”并看到其余的部分。

And so frog goes along.

青蛙就这样跟着走。

Grant Lee: And so for me, I came from a pretty modest childhood.

格兰特·李：对我来说，我的童年非常朴素。

My parents, we didn't have a whole lot and I think it would've been very easy to kind of have a very narrow lens on the world and be like, "Oh, this is what it is." But my mom never allowed me to do that.

我的父母，我们没有太多，我认为用非常狭隘的视角看待世界是很容易的，并且会说，“哦，就是这样。”但我妈妈从来不让我这么做。

She always pulled me to dream much bigger to say, "Hey, the world is vast.

她总是拉着我去实现更大的梦想，说：“嘿，世界很大。

It's your opportunity to seize it.

这是你的机会，要抓住它。

You have to go out there, don't have a narrow view of what's possible.

你必须走出去，不要对可能性抱有狭隘的看法。

Always dream bigger." And so for me, that's always carried through and every time I feel like I'm thinking too little or too small, I try to zoom out and remind myself that there's much more out there to go after.

永远梦想更大。”所以对我来说，这总是贯穿始终，每当我觉得自己想得太少或太小时，我都会尝试缩小范围并提醒自己还有更多东西需要追求。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is so good and so important and so valuable in today's world where so much more is possible.

Lenny Rachitsky：在当今世界，有更多的可能性，这非常好、非常重要、非常有价值。

Just like, most of what limits people it feels like now is just, I don't know what idea I have.

就像，现在感觉限制人们的大部分只是，我不知道我有什么想法。

I don't know what to do.

我不知道该怎么办。

Now you could get things done so much quicker and so much more is possible.

现在，您可以更快地完成工作，并且有更多可能。

So that's such valuable thinking.

所以这是非常有价值的想法。

Okay, final question.

好的，最后一个问题。

You help people present better.

您帮助人们更好地展示。

Your tools basically help people become better presenters.

您的工具基本上可以帮助人们成为更好的演示者。

What's one tip you've learned or one tip you teach people to become better presenters that might be helpful to listeners?

您学到的一项技巧或您教人们成为更好的演讲者的一项可能对听众有帮助的技巧是什么？

Grant Lee: Yeah, I mean, I'll go back to the consumer advertising concept, which is one idea at a time, this notion of you give them one egg, someone can catch it, give them too many eggs, they're going to drop it.

格兰特·李：是的，我的意思是，我会回到消费者广告概念，这是一次一个想法，这个概念是你给他们一个鸡蛋，有人可以抓住它，给他们太多鸡蛋，他们会掉下来。

So don't try to throw too many concepts all at once.

因此，不要试图一次抛出太多概念。

Keep it simple.

保持简单。

People will appreciate it.

人们会感激的。

And so with every sort of presentation, break it down into the core concepts, try to make sure you're covering one at a time.

因此，对于每一种演示，都将其分解为核心概念，并尽量确保一次涵盖一个。

And I think once you sort of see a through line there, then it becomes easy for it to package up into something that feels more cohesive.

我认为一旦你看到了一条贯穿其中的线，那么它就很容易打包成一些感觉更有凝聚力的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Grant, two final questions.

兰尼·拉奇茨基：格兰特，最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online?

人们可以在哪里在线找到您？

Where can they find Gamma?

他们在哪里可以找到伽玛？

What should they know?

他们应该知道什么？

Just plug anything you want and then how can listeners be useful to you?

只要插入任何你想要的东西，那么听众怎么能对你有用呢？

Grant Lee: Yeah, so you can find me on both Twitter and LinkedIn, DM's open.

Grant Lee：是的，所以你可以在 Twitter 和 LinkedIn 上找到我，DM 是开放的。

I honestly hear just knowing how hard the journey is in general, whether just thinking about a startup idea or you're deep into startup land, I want to be hopefully helpful.

老实说，我听说只是知道整个旅程有多艰难，无论是只是考虑一个创业想法还是深入创业领域，我希望能有所帮助。

I'm going to be hopefully your biggest cheerleader, so let me know how I can help.

我希望成为您最大的啦啦队长，所以请告诉我我可以提供什么帮助。

And then for us, we're always looking for feedback.

对于我们来说，我们一直在寻求反馈。

So if you're trying Gamma, it's falling short of your expectations, let us know.

因此，如果您正在尝试 Gamma，但它没有达到您的期望，请告诉我们。

We'd love to help in terms of just trying to make it better.

我们很乐意提供帮助，努力让它变得更好。

And yeah, really appreciate all the feedback and support along the way.

是的，非常感谢一路上所有的反馈和支持。

Lenny Rachitsky: Grant, this was awesome.

兰尼·拉奇茨基：格兰特，这太棒了。

I really appreciate you making time.

我真的很感谢你抽出时间。

I know you're trying to build a crazy fast-growing startup with a lot going on, so I really appreciate you making time for this.

我知道您正试图建立一家疯狂快速发展的初创公司，并且正在进行很多工作，所以我非常感谢您为此抽出时间。

Grant Lee: Thanks, Lenny.

格兰特·李：谢谢，莱尼。

It's been a blast.

真是太棒了。

It's been a blast for me too.

这对我来说也是一次爆炸。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。