Gokul Rajaram on designing your product development process, when and how to hire your first PM, a playbook for hiring leaders, getting ahead in your career, how to get started angel investing, and more

Gokul Rajaram 介绍了设计产品开发流程、何时以及如何聘请第一位产品经理、招聘领导者的手册、在职业生涯中取得进步、如何开始天使投资等

2022-01-01 · Lenny's Podcast · 原文

Lenny: I sometimes wonder how someone like go Gokul Rajaram can exist.

莱尼：我有时想知道像戈库尔·拉贾拉姆这样的人怎么可能存在。

He has an intense full-time job at DoorDash where he leads a significant part of the product in business.

他在 DoorDash 从事着一份紧张的全职工作，负责领导产品业务的重要部分。

He also served as a board member at the Trade Desk, Coinbase and Pinterest, all public companies.

他还曾担任 Trade Desk、Coinbase 和 Pinterest 等上市公司的董事会成员。

He's also a prolific investor and seemingly on the cap table.

他也是一位多产的投资者，而且似乎也在资本表上。

Every successful startup that I come across and at the same time, he's one of the most humble and nicest people you'll ever meet.

我遇到的每一个成功的初创公司，同时，他都是你见过的最谦虚、最友善的人之一。

If you look him up, you'll notice he always just calls himself a startup helper and I know that he makes a lot of time to mentor and help a lot of founders.

如果你查一下他，你会发现他总是自称是创业助手，我知道他花了很多时间来指导和帮助很多创始人。

We cover a lot of ground in our conversation, including picking where to work, how to do product development startups, structuring your product teams, hiring and angel investing.

我们的谈话涵盖了很多内容，包括选择工作地点、如何进行产品开发初创公司、构建产品团队、招聘和天使投资。

I hope that you enjoy our chat.

我希望您喜欢我们的聊天。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Amplitude.

Lenny：这一集是 Amplitude 为您带来的。

The number one product analytics solution.

排名第一的产品分析解决方案。

Amplitude helps product teams, growth teams, marketing and data teams build winning products faster and turn products into revenue.

Amplitude 帮助产品团队、增长团队、营销和数据团队更快地打造获胜产品，并将产品转化为收入。

Amplitude has everything you need, including an integrated CDP, self-service analytics, and even an experimentation platform to help you better understand your users, drive conversions and increase engagement, growth and revenue.

Amplitude 拥有您所需的一切，包括集成的 CDP、自助分析，甚至是一个实验平台，可帮助您更好地了解用户、推动转化并提高参与度、增长和收入。

Amplitude is built for teams that want to learn as fast as they ship and ship as fast as they learn.

Amplitude 是为那些希望学习与交付一样快、交付与学习一样快的团队而构建的。

Get your vanity metrics, rest your data, work smarter and grow your business.

获取您的虚荣指标，休息您的数据，更智能地工作并发展您的业务。

With over 1,700 customers like Atlassian, Instacart, and HBO, amplitude is helping companies build better products.

振幅拥有 Atlassian、Instacart 和 HBO 等 1,700 多个客户，正在帮助公司打造更好的产品。

Try Amplitude for free.

免费试用 Amplitude。

Visit amplitude.com to get started.

请访问振幅.com 以开始使用。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Flat File.

Lenny：本集由 Flat File 为您带来。

Think the last time to imported a spreadsheet.

想想上次导入电子表格的时间。

Did it work the first time?

第一次有效果吗？

Chances are it did not.

很可能事实并非如此。

You probably got some weird error and had to try a bunch of things like removing the blank title rows above your column headers or Googling, "How to save with UTF eight and coding." What even is UTF?

您可能会遇到一些奇怪的错误，并且必须尝试一系列操作，例如删除列标题上方的空白标题行或谷歌搜索“如何使用 UTF 8 和编码进行保存”。 UTF到底是什么？

Who cares?

谁在乎？

You're just trying to get your file where it needs to go so you can do your actual job.

您只是想将文件放到需要的位置，以便您可以完成实际工作。

Your customers are running to the same issues when it matters most, right after signing up for your product.

您的客户在注册您的产品后，在最重要的时候遇到了同样的问题。

Lenny: Enter Flat File.

莱尼：输入平面文件。

Flat File is the data onboarding platform, built to take the acute pain out of importing customer data into your product so they can see the magic that you promised them.

Flat File 是一个数据登录平台，旨在消除将客户数据导入产品的痛苦，以便他们能够看到您向他们承诺的魔力。

Flat File is SOC Type one and two certified, GDPR compliant and even HIPAA compliant.

Flat File 经过 SOC 一类和二类认证，符合 GDPR 甚至 HIPAA 标准。

Ensuring your customers, no matter where in the world they're located, are sharing their data securely in compliance every step of the way.

确保您的客户，无论身在世界何处，都能在每一步中安全、合规地共享数据。

No more emailing files back and forth.

不再需要来回通过电子邮件发送文件。

No more help articles that just don't land.

不再有无法登陆的帮助文章。

Just clean data on day one.

只需在第一天清理数据即可。

When it matters most.

当最重要的时候。

Get started importing millions of rows of customer data in minutes, at flatfile.com, slash, Lenny.

在 flatfile.com、slash、Lenny 上开始在几分钟内导入数百万行客户数据。

Lenny: Gokul, thank you so much for doing this.

莱尼：Gokul，非常感谢你这么做。

I know that you're an intensely busy human and I really appreciate you being here.

我知道您是一个非常忙碌的人，我非常感谢您来到这里。

Gokul Rajaram: Thank you Lenny.

戈库尔·拉贾拉姆：谢谢你，莱尼。

It's awesome to be here.

来到这里真是太棒了。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny: It's absolutely my pleasure.

莱尼：这绝对是我的荣幸。

You're on the boards of Coinbase and Pinterest, you're a really big deal at DoorDash.

您是 Coinbase 和 Pinterest 的董事会成员，也是 DoorDash 的重要人物。

You're even bigger deal at Caviar.

您在 Caviar 的地位更重要。

You worked at Square, at Facebook, at Google.

你曾在 Square、Facebook、Google 工作过。

Plus you're an incredibly prolific investor.

另外，您还是一位多产的投资者。

I'd probably put you in the top 1% of investors based on what I've seen.

根据我的观察，我可能会把你列为前 1% 的投资者。

And so I'm just curious kind of just to set context, how did you get into tech and product originally?

所以我只是想了解一下背景，您最初是如何进入技术和产品领域的？

And then just what was your journey like to becoming this luminary of tech?

那么，您成为科技界杰出人物的历程是怎样的呢？

Gokul Rajaram: First of all, let's not start use the word luminary.

Gokul Rajaram：首先，我们不要开始使用“杰出人物”这个词。

I think it's people like Elon and Mark who are luminaries, I think.

我认为像埃隆和马克这样的人都是杰出人物。

I've just been lucky to work at good companies and observe the creation and growth of these companies.

我很幸运能够在优秀的公司工作并观察这些公司的创建和成长。

I'll give you an interesting story.

我给你讲一个有趣的故事。

Crazily enough, I joined Google as a PM after I applied to Cisco.

更疯狂的是，我在申请思科后加入了谷歌担任产品经理。

This was in 2003, and I wanted to be a hardcore networking product manager in the layer three, layer two of networking.

那是在 2003 年，我想成为网络第三层、第二层的核心网络产品经理。

I was like, layer seven software is for wimps.

我当时想，第七层软件是为懦夫准备的。

I'm going to go hardcore.

我要去硬核了

Gokul Rajaram: Cisco had a...

Gokul Rajaram：思科有...

In 2001, 2002 right after the bust, the first dot com bust.

2001年、2002年泡沫破灭之后，第一次互联网泡沫破灭。

Then Cisco actually rescinded my offer.

然后思科实际上取消了我的报价。

They made me an offer, they rescinded it, and then basically that's how I ended up at Google.

他们向我提出了一份工作邀请，然后又撤销了，然后我基本上就这样来到了谷歌。

Was my second choice after Cisco.

是继思科之后我的第二选择。

So literally you can see some of these decisions.

所以从字面上你可以看到其中一些决定。

You're just saved from yourself by , and otherwise I would have been in networking, probably.

你只是被拯救了，否则我可能会进入网络行业。

Maybe still at Cisco.

也许还在思科。

But at Google I got put on something called syndication, which is taking Google searches results and ads and then syndicating it to other properties like AOL back in the day, Yahoo, et cetera.

但在谷歌，我参与了一种称为联合的活动，即获取谷歌搜索结果和广告，然后将其联合到其他资产，例如当时的美国在线、雅虎等。

Gokul Rajaram: And I was working on that product and at about 6:00 PM...

Gokul Rajaram：我当时正在开发该产品，大约下午 6:00...

We had offices then, back then at Google, 2002, 2003, people would go home and some people would stay back.

那时我们有办公室，当时在谷歌，2002 年、2003 年，人们会回家，有些人会留在家里。

I'd just walk around and a few doors from me, I basically found a group of engineers in an office and they were working on something.

我只是四处走走，在离我几扇门的地方，我基本上发现办公室里有一群工程师，他们正在做一些事情。

I was like, "What are you working on?

我当时想，“你在做什么？

They said, "Well," Serge Brin, the co-founder had given them a project of essentially reversing what Google had done with search.

他们说，“好吧，”联合创始人塞尔吉·布林给了他们一个项目，从本质上扭转谷歌在搜索方面的做法。

You type in a phrase, set of keywords and then Google identifies the webpages that are most relevant to the set of keywords.

您输入一个短语、一组关键字，然后 Google 会识别与该组关键字最相关的网页。

So we have an index that matches keywords and webpages, so why don't we extract those keywords for any given webpage and basically see if we can target ads based on that?

因此，我们有一个与关键字和网页相匹配的索引，那么为什么我们不提取任何给定网页的这些关键字，并基本上看看我们是否可以基于此来定位广告呢？

So that seemed interesting.

这看起来很有趣。

Google's AdWords product, which was such, ads had just started scaling up and I was like, "Hey, do you have any PMs working with you?"

Google 的 AdWords 产品就是这样，广告刚刚开始扩大规模，我当时就想，“嘿，有和你一起工作的产品经理吗？”

Gokul Rajaram: They said, no. "Can I be your PM?" They said, "Aren't you working on syndication?" I said, "Yeah, but I can do this nights and weekends." So I basically became a part-time PM for them and help them talk to customers, even did presentations with them.

Gokul Rajaram：他们说不。 “我可以当你的PM吗？”他们说：“你不是在搞联合组织吗？”我说：“是的，但是我可以在这个晚上和周末做。”所以我基本上成了他们的兼职产品经理，帮助他们与客户交谈，甚至与他们一起做演示。

And while my full-time job was this other thing.

虽然我的全职工作是另一回事。

And essentially within three months this thing grew big enough and fast enough and became a product that my boss saw this and she moved me over to full-time work on this, and that became Google AdSense.

基本上在三个月内，这个东西就变得足够大、足够快，成为了我的老板看到的一个产品，她让我全职从事这个工作，这就是 Google AdSense。

So a lesson for me I realized is that it's very important to do a core job really well at any company, but it's equally important to have curiosity and be open to serendipity.

因此，我意识到，在任何公司，做好核心工作都非常重要，但拥有好奇心并乐于接受意外发现也同样重要。

I think Zoom makes it harder, but it's very important to understand what else is going on at the company, what else people are working on, and just keep talking to people and build relationship with the company, because those are what will lead to the next set of opportunities.

我认为 Zoom 使事情变得更加困难，但了解公司正在发生的其他事情、人们正在做什么，并继续与人们交谈并与公司建立关系非常重要，因为这些将带来下一组机会。

Gokul Rajaram: I think many opportunities don't come linearly just working in your job and making sure you get promoted.

Gokul Rajaram：我认为很多机会并不是线性的，只是在你的工作中工作并确保你得到晋升。

That's not how I think great careers are built.

我认为伟大的职业生涯并不是这样建立的。

I think great careers are built by knowing a lot of people doing great work so they know and want you on their teams, and just waiting for serendipity and then seizing it and jumping.

我认为伟大的职业生涯是通过认识很多人做伟大的工作而建立的，这样他们就知道并希望你加入他们的团队，然后等待偶然的机会，然后抓住它并跳跃。

Another example is I had advised a company which was acquired by Square, and the fundraiser in Google.

另一个例子是我曾为一家被 Square 收购的公司以及 Google 的筹款活动提供咨询。

And Jack, the CEO of Square, asked the founder who was one of the best product people he knows.

Square 的首席执行官杰克问创始人谁是他认识的最好的产品人员之一。

My name was mentioned.

我的名字被提到了。

So then they reached out to me and I would never have really...

然后他们向我伸出援手，而我永远不会真的......

I mean, informal advising.

我的意思是，非正式的建议。

I didn't have any equity of something in the company.

我在公司没有任何股权。

I just helped them out because they reached out to me because it was a former colleague and I said, "Sure, I'll help you out."

我只是帮助他们，因为他们联系我，因为那是我的前同事，我说：“当然，我会帮助你。”

Gokul Rajaram: And then that resulted in him saying good things about me and that led to the inbound from Square.

Gokul Rajaram：然后他就对我说了好话，这导致了 Square 的入境。

So I think you got to prioritize this stuff.

所以我认为你必须优先考虑这些事情。

I mean you got to be careful it doesn't take up your life, but I think it's very important to be curious and open to serendipity.

我的意思是你必须小心它不会占用你的生命，但我认为保持好奇心并乐于接受意外发现非常重要。

I realize in today's world there are lots of crazy serendipity things that happen.

我意识到当今世界会发生很多疯狂的偶然事件。

If you take inbounds from smart people and you just chat with them and you help them out.

如果你接受聪明人的接听，你只需与他们聊天并帮助他们。

Gokul Rajaram: Paying it forward is the other thing, paying it forward.

Gokul Rajaram：向前支付是另一回事，向前支付。

Lenny, you're a great example to this, you pay it forward so much.

莱尼，你就是一个很好的例子，你付出了很多。

Your articles, stuff you write, good things happen in ways that you don't even realize.

你的文章、你写的东西、美好的事情都会以你甚至没有意识到的方式发生。

You build up a reservoir of goodwill that comes back to help you in different ways.

你建立了一个善意的水库，它会以不同的方式回来帮助你。

Lenny: I love this advice.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。

I don't know if you know this already, but I actually did a TEDx talk once about serendipity.

我不知道你是否已经知道这一点，但实际上我曾经在 TEDx 上做过一次关于偶然性的演讲。

It's called Losing Your Serendipity.

这就是所谓的“失去你的缘分”。

It's out there on the internet, in case people want to-

它就在互联网上，以防人们想要——

Gokul Rajaram: I'm going to check it out.

Gokul Rajaram：我要去看看。

Wow.

哇。

Lenny: Long time ago.

莱尼：很久以前了。

But I love, love that concept and it's such a good story.

但我喜欢，喜欢这个概念，这是一个很好的故事。

Just kind of pulling that thread a little bit, I'm curious, when you're looking for opportunities, would you suggest people focus on things they're excited about and passion that's pulling them in?

我很好奇，当你在寻找机会时，你会建议人们关注他们感兴趣的事情和吸引他们的热情吗？

Lenny: Or more, I just think there's a big opportunity and maybe I'm not so excited about doing the work, but I'm just going to follow it because it may lead somewhere.

莱尼：或者更多，我只是认为这是一个很大的机会，也许我对做这项工作并不那么兴奋，但我只是会跟随它，因为它可能会导致某个地方。

Or some, right in the middle?

或者一些，就在中间？

How do you think about that?

您对此有何看法？

Gokul Rajaram: I think you got to think about the day to day.

Gokul Rajaram：我认为你必须每天思考。

In many cases I feel people don't realize whether they're passionate about something or not until they actually start doing the work.

在很多情况下，我觉得人们直到真正开始做这项工作才意识到他们是否对某件事充满热情。

I could never ever imagine that I could be passionate about payments ever in a million years, but the environment of the company Square was so infectious and great and the culture was so good that we even made working on payments...

我从来没有想象过一百万年后我还能对支付充满热情，但 Square 公司的环境太有感染力了，文化太棒了，我们甚至开始做支付……

And you're serving these small businesses.

您正在为这些小企业提供服务。

I always think of, not what you're working on but what problem you're solving.

我总是想到的不是你正在做什么，而是你正在解决什么问题。

In many cases, I get more energy from the problem I'm solving and who I'm solving it for and I realize that I get much more energy from personally solving problems that affected a small business or basically people or small business that I can relate to.

在很多情况下，我从我正在解决的问题以及我正在为谁解决问题中获得更多的精力，并且我意识到，我从亲自解决影响小企业或基本上与我相关的人或小企业的问题中获得了更多的精力。

It is harder for me to get energy solving problems of big enterprise and companies.

我更难获得精力去解决大企业和公司的问题。

Gokul Rajaram: So I've always somehow ended up working at companies like DoorDash or Square or even Facebook, building ad product for small businesses, Google AdSense for small publishers.

Gokul Rajaram：所以我总是以某种方式结束在 DoorDash 或 Square 甚至 Facebook 等公司工作，为小型企业构建广告产品，为小型发布商构建 Google AdSense。

And so consumers for small businesses is what I've seen.

我所看到的就是小企业的消费者。

And so I think it's important to know what kind of problems you get energy from and really think about the problem versus the customer segment.

因此，我认为重要的是要知道你从什么样的问题中获得能量，并真正考虑问题与客户群的关系。

Maybe even more than the problem because I've saw different kinds of problems, but I realize that it's those kinds of customers I enjoy because you can meet them in the day to day.

也许比问题更重要，因为我见过不同类型的问题，但我意识到我喜欢的是这些类型的客户，因为你可以在日常生活中遇到他们。

You can see them on the street or you read their articles.

你可以在街上看到他们，或者读到他们的文章。

A small blogger for example, I remember I used to go to a lot of blog conferences when I was a PM for AdSense.

以一个小博主为例，我记得当我担任 AdSense 的 PM 时，我曾经参加过很多博客会议。

It was great to meet these bloggers.

很高兴见到这些博主。

They would be hundreds of thousands of them back then.

那时他们的数量将达到数十万。

Gokul Rajaram: It's probably different, Medium and so on, now, Substack, but back then it was blogger.

Gokul Rajaram：可能有所不同，Medium 等等，现在是 Substack，但当时是博客。

I think the word doesn't even exist today, but it's amazing to meet them and they literally...

我认为这个词今天甚至不存在，但见到他们真是太棒了，他们确实......

Till today I have people emailing me, "Gokul, I know you right?

直到今天，仍有人给我发电子邮件，“Gokul，我认识你，对吗？

We used to make a hundred thousand dollars a year based on purely AdSense, and that was our living and that's how we built this other company on that." So big companies, you don't ever get to hear something like that.

我们过去每年纯粹靠 AdSense 赚 10 万美元，这就是我们的生计，这就是我们如何在此基础上建立另一家公司的原因。”这么大的公司，你永远不会听到这样的事情。

So I got energy from things like that.

所以我从这样的事情中获得了能量。

The other one is founder.

另一位是创始人。

I think, Lenny, it's very important if you think...

我认为，莱尼，如果你认为......

Talking about company, is to have a founder, when you talk to them, you don't get the sense that they're in it for the money.

谈论公司，就是有一个创始人，当你和他们交谈时，你不会感觉到他们是为了钱。

I think it's very important for founders to really live and breathe the mission themselves in an authentic way.

我认为对于创始人来说，以真实的方式真正生活和呼吸使命是非常重要的。

Gokul Rajaram: And if people are smart, and I think you've got to really honestly think if this person is constantly talking about revenue and trying to convince you that you're going to get wealthy or they're going to get...

Gokul Rajaram：如果人们很聪明，我认为你必须真正诚实地思考这个人是否不断谈论收入并试图说服你你会变得富有，或者他们会变得......

Whatever the case is, that's not the kind of founder that's going build a really large company.

不管怎样，这样的创始人都不会创建一家真正的大公司。

And so if you look at everyone, whether it's...

所以如果你看看每个人，无论是...

You've worked with Brian Chesky, I'm sure he embodies that.

你曾与布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）合作过，我确信他体现了这一点。

Jack at Square, Tony at DoorDash, Larry at Google, all of these folks embody that mission.

Square 的 Jack、DoorDash 的 Tony、Google 的 Larry，所有这些人都体现了这一使命。

Mark at Facebook.

马克在脸书。

That they care about winning.

他们关心胜利。

They will win and money will come, but it's a side product.

他们会赢，钱也会来，但这是副产品。

It's not the main thing they're aiming for.

这不是他们的主要目标。

Lenny: That's a good segue.

莱尼：这是一个很好的延续。

A question I wanted to talk about is when someone's looking for a company to join, knowing that you've worked at a lot of really successful companies, what else should people look for when they're trying to decide where to go?

我想谈的一个问题是，当有人正在寻找一家公司加入时，知道你曾在很多非常成功的公司工作过，那么当人们试图决定去哪里时，他们还应该寻找什么？

So what we've talked about so far is, a founder that really wants to win and is really driven, and then a problem that you want to solve?

所以到目前为止我们所讨论的是，一个真正想要获胜并且真正有动力的创始人，然后是你想要解决的问题？

Is there anything else?

还有别的吗？

Gokul Rajaram: I think those are the two things.

Gokul Rajaram：我认为这是两件事。

One thing to look at, I would say, is that it is important to see if this company can become the number one player in its segment.

我想说，需要注意的一件事是，重要的是看看这家公司是否能够成为其细分市场的第一名。

I'll give you an example.

我给你举个例子。

I convinced someone who's going to take a very senior role, let's just say a tier two or tier three e-commerce company, to become a, not...

我说服了一个将担任非常高级职位的人，比如说二级或三级电子商务公司，成为一家，而不是......

So, basically take one step down at different company, which is at Coinbase, basically.

所以，基本上是在另一家公司退一步，基本上就是 Coinbase。

I sat on the board of Coinbase, and I think that person still thanks me because I think they were focused too much on the title, that they were going to be the super senior person at this company on the management team, et cetera.

我是 Coinbase 的董事会成员，我认为那个人仍然感谢我，因为我认为他们过于关注头衔，他们将成为这家公司管理团队的超级高级人员，等等。

But I said, "Ultimately you don't realize this, but the value of working at a leader in any space, the quality of talent you work with, the brand, the network effect, so many things accrue to you.

但我说，“最终你没有意识到这一点，但在任何领域的领导者那里工作的价值、与你一起工作的人才的质量、品牌、网络效应，很多东西都会为你带来好处。

I would much rather be the number two or number three person."

我更愿意成为第二或第三人。”

Gokul Rajaram: If you think of it that way, and the leader in a space, than the top person.

Gokul Rajaram：如果你这样想的话，一个空间中的领导者，而不是最高层的人。

Say Google versus Yahoo.

比如说谷歌和雅虎。

I saw even if you're the VP of product at Yahoo or the head of product at Yahoo versus a ICPM at Google, you probably want to be the ICPM at Google.

我发现，即使您是雅虎的产品副总裁或雅虎的产品主管，与 Google 的 ICPM 相比，您也可能想成为 Google 的 ICPM。

I bet you all day long, all day long.

我赌你一整天，一整天。

Yahoo is a great company, but Google is just a different caliber and different class.

雅虎是一家伟大的公司，但谷歌只是不同的口径和不同的级别。

So I think it's very important to try to work at, obviously you don't know who the winner is, but if you think that's that something is a winner in a space, in large space, so many benefits that recruit from working at winners.

所以我认为尝试工作是非常重要的，显然你不知道谁是赢家，但如果你认为某件事是一个空间中的赢家，在一个大空间里，那么从赢家那里工作会带来很多好处。

You get unfair brand halo because you worked at a winner.

你因为在赢家工作而获得了不公平的品牌光环。

People attribute a lot of the...

人们将很多归因于...

"Oh yeah, you worked at a winner.

“哦，是的，你在胜利者那里工作过。

Hence, you must be a winner." Probably not the case, but you can...

因此，你一定是赢家。”也许并非如此，但你可以......

I'll take it.

我会接受的。

Lenny: So along those lines and kind of touching on your investor experience, what should folks look for to think about, is this going to be a winner?

莱尼：因此，沿着这些思路，并触及您的投资者体验，人们应该考虑什么，这会成为赢家吗？

Or should they maybe join when it's like a series B, series C when it's kind of clear that it's doing well?

或者，当 B 轮、C 轮显然表现良好时，他们是否应该加入？

Do you have any thoughts?

你有什么想法吗？

Maybe for either a new person joining the workforce, maybe PM, let's say, or even later?

也许对于新加入劳动力市场的人来说，也许是PM，或者甚至更晚？

Gokul Rajaram: Personally, I feel like Hunter Walk wrote a very good post on it.

Gokul Rajaram：就我个人而言，我觉得 Hunter Walk 就此写了一篇非常好的文章。

He said that people who are joining the workforce new should generally join mid-stage companies because mid-stage companies you get some mentorship and it's not just basically whatever needs to be done and ultimately you don't build any deep skills.

他说，新加入劳动力市场的人通常应该加入中期公司，因为在中期公司，你会得到一些指导，而不仅仅是基本上需要做的事情，最终你不会培养任何深厚的技能。

So mid-stage company I would define as something that is a multi hundred person company, but not maybe a thousand person company.

因此，我将中期公司定义为数百人的公司，而不是千人的公司。

Gokul Rajaram: Somewhere from 300 to 500 people that has not just reached product market fit, but product market, channel fit.

Gokul Rajaram：大约 300 到 500 人不仅达到了产品市场契合度，而且还达到了产品市场和渠道契合度。

And the first product ideally is, the current product is on the way to becoming almost bulletproof.

理想情况下，第一个产品是，当前的产品正在变得几乎无懈可击。

It's going to be a very, very strong product.

这将是一个非常非常强大的产品。

And then it's really a path to becoming a platform beyond a product, where the company's thinking about, "How do I become a platform?" They have multiple products that serve the same customer, different problems, and they all complement and interlock with each other.

这实际上是一条成为超越产品的平台的道路，公司正在思考“我如何成为一个平台？”他们有多种产品，服务于同一客户，解决不同的问题，而且它们都是相互补充、相互关联的。

Gokul Rajaram: So because, looking back on a career, always without really thinking about it, as employee number six, seven or 800 at Google, employee number, few hundreds at Facebook, employee number seven, 800 at Square.

Gokul Rajaram：所以，因为，回顾自己的职业生涯，总是没有真正考虑过它，作为 Google 的第六、七或 800 名员工，Facebook 的数百名员工，Square 的第七名、800 名员工。

DoorDash was slightly later because just through an acquisition.

DoorDash 稍晚一些，因为刚刚通过收购。

So it was like I think 1,500 or something like all around.

所以我想大约有 1,500 左右。

But DoorDash also, I think, yeah, but I think that's basically, at least for me, has worked.

但 DoorDash 也，我认为，是的，但我认为这基本上，至少对我来说，已经起作用了。

Gokul Rajaram: And this is even when I was not a newbie, as I was in my career.

Gokul Rajaram：即使我不是新手，就像我在职业生涯中一样。

So it's really a good spot I feel if you're joining a company.

所以，如果你要加入一家公司，我觉得这确实是一个好地方。

For many reasons.

出于多种原因。

Lenny: And this advice is for, you're saying new people but also maybe people further along in their career?

莱尼：这个建议是针对新人的，但也可能是针对职业生涯更深入的人？

Gokul Rajaram: I think unless you know the founders very, very, very well, joining a very early stage company is, especially now for the next one or two years, it's going to be a brutal market out there.

Gokul Rajaram：我认为，除非你非常、非常、非常了解创始人，否则加入一家非常早期的公司，尤其是现在，在未来一两年内，这将是一个残酷的市场。

So you've got to be really careful.

所以你必须非常小心。

There's going to be the days of raising around, few weeks after raising your prior round, of couple of months without much movement, without much company progress have...

将会有一些日子四处筹集资金，在筹集上一轮资金后几周，几个月内没有太多进展，公司没有太多进展......

Are probably gone for most companies.

对于大多数公司来说可能已经消失了。

And we all have seen now companies that have raised round at crazy valuations, deflate or die quickly.

我们现在都看到，那些以疯狂估值筹集资金的公司，很快就会萎靡不振或消亡。

And so that's happened very quickly.

这一切发生得非常快。

You might just join and your company could die a week from now.

你可能刚刚加入，你的公司可能会在一周后倒闭。

So I think the other one is to really look at the financials and really understand that better.

所以我认为另一个是真正关注财务状况并更好地理解这一点。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's really helpful advice.

这确实是很有帮助的建议。

You mentioned Brian Armstrong, Brian Chesky and some of the other folks that you have worked with and gotten to know.

您提到了布莱恩·阿姆斯特朗、布莱恩·切斯基以及其他一些与您共事并认识的人。

I'm curious, of the companies you've worked at, say now Coinbase, on the board, Google, Facebook, Square, DoorDash, what are some things that have kind of stuck with you?

我很好奇，在你工作过的公司中，比如现在的 Coinbase、董事会、谷歌、Facebook、Square、DoorDash，有哪些事情让你印象深刻？

Lenny: Things you've taken away about how to run a company, build a product?

莱尼：关于如何经营一家公司、打造一款产品，你学到了什么？

Or anything else that's just taught you a lesson about how to do what you're doing?

或者有什么其他事情可以教会你如何做你正在做的事情？

Gokul Rajaram: One of the most interesting things I've realized is there are multiple paths to greatness.

Gokul Rajaram：我意识到的最有趣的事情之一是，通往伟大的道路有多种。

What I mean by that is if I were to look at one word to describe each of the companies I have actually worked at.

我的意思是，如果我用一个词来描述我实际工作过的每家公司。

Google would be technical.

谷歌将是技术性的。

It is very, very technical, technology focused, because Google believe, if you build great technology, they will come.

这是非常非常技术性的、以技术为中心的，因为谷歌相信，如果你开发出伟大的技术，他们就会来。

Facebook was very growth focused.

Facebook 非常注重增长。

Very much, here's a goal, we want to hit 1 billion MAUs, let's work backwards from there.

非常好，这是一个目标，我们想要达到 10 亿月活跃用户，让我们从那里开始向后努力。

Square was very design focused.

Square 非常注重设计。

Let's build the cleanest minimalistic design, the most well designed product, then good things happen.

让我们打造最干净简约的设计，设计最精良的产品，然后美好的事情就会发生。

DoorDash by nature is more operational, probably the right word to use where product and operational intertwined.

DoorDash 本质上更具可操作性，这可能是在产品和操作交织在一起的情况下使用的正确词。

Uber probably is the same word.

Uber 可能是同一个词。

So I think there are multiple paths to greatness, but I think the founder and market fit in terms of even the type of company that's needed is very strong.

因此，我认为通往伟大的道路有多种，但我认为创始人和市场的契合度甚至就所需的公司类型而言都非常强。

Gokul Rajaram: In other words, I think founders have to be authentic to themselves.

Gokul Rajaram：换句话说，我认为创始人必须忠于自己。

The other thing I saw is that each founder, whether it's Tony Shoe at DoorDash or Jack, they all had their distinctive styles but they didn't try to change their style.

我看到的另一件事是，每个创始人，无论是DoorDash的Tony Shoe还是Jack，他们都有自己独特的风格，但他们并没有试图改变自己的风格。

In some ways the company was built almost in their image in some ways and that was fine.

在某些方面，公司几乎是按照他们的形象建立的，这很好。

I think if you try to build a company that's inauthentic to who you are as a founder, that's not going to work.

我认为，如果你试图建立一家与你作为创始人的身份不相符的公司，那是行不通的。

So ultimately you want to...

所以最终你想...

If Jack tried to build a company that sold enterprise software, I don't think that would've worked.

如果杰克试图建立一家销售企业软件的公司，我认为这不会成功。

That's not who he is.

他不是这样的人。

And so you want a founder and a company culture that are essentially synonymous and founders to be authentic.

因此，你希望创始人和公司文化本质上是同义词，并且创始人是真实的。

And I think finally the one other thing that I've seen is, the product itself ideally needs to have some remarkability.

我认为最后我看到的另一件事是，产品本身理想地需要具有一些显着性。

Gokul Rajaram: What I mean by that is, it needs to be better than anything else that solves that pain point along a few dimensions that really matter, even if it's worse along other dimensions.

Gokul Rajaram：我的意思是，它需要比其他任何东西都更好，能够在几个真正重要的维度上解决痛点，即使在其他维度上更糟糕。

So I think every great product, it needs to have a lot of word of mouth.

所以我认为每一个伟大的产品，都需要有大量的口碑。

I think especially nowadays, I'm seeing a lot of consumer companies challenged because they relied on Facebook or paid media to drive customer acquisition, and bunch of young companies are coming to me saying, "What do we do now?"

我认为尤其是现在，我看到很多消费公司面临着挑战，因为他们依靠 Facebook 或付费媒体来推动客户获取，而许多年轻公司来找我说，“我们现在做什么？”

Gokul Rajaram: I'm like, "Look, the biggest thing you did wrong initially was you didn't pay enough attention to organic growth.

Gokul Rajaram：我想，“看，你最初做错的最大的事情是你没有对有机增长给予足够的重视。

Basically, was this product compelling enough that people talk about it and bring other people along?

And you completely relied on paid and that's coming back to bite you."

Gokul Rajaram: So a good metric is that 40 to 50% of your new customers should ideally come from organic channels and 50% from paid.

If 90% come from paid, that means at some point that the music is going to stop.

Lenny: Unless you've got some magical insight or someone that's just killing it.

Gokul Rajaram: A growth pack, right?

Gokul Rajaram：成长包，对吧？

Everyone's looking at this growth tag, but there is no...

There's nothing like the silver growth tag bullet.

没有什么比银色生长标签子弹更好的了。

Lenny: It's interesting, there are a couple companies I'm an investor in that are actually still working really well through paid.

莱尼：有趣的是，我投资了几家公司，实际上它们仍然通过付费方式运营得很好。

And so it's definitely possible but incredibly hard.

Gokul Rajaram: Yeah, those are exceptions that prove the rule.

Gokul Rajaram：是的，这些都是证明规则的例外。

Lenny: What I think of when you talk about this is that something Seth Godin shared a while ago that I always come back to you, this idea that your product has to be remarkable where people want to remark on it, for it to have a chance, especially in consumer, because that's how things start to grow.

People just can't help but talk about it.

人们只是忍不住谈论它。

Lenny: Easier said than done.

莱尼：说起来容易做起来难。

Okay, so getting a little tactical.

好的，所以要讲一点战术。

I'm curious to get your take on just the product development process at companies.

How do you think about founders setting up a product development process?

What do you recommend usually?

你通常会推荐什么？

And then maybe further down the line, when they get to like 25 people, maybe 50 people, how do you advise founders think about their product development process in the early stages and then as they evolve?

Gokul Rajaram: I think first of all, the planning period is different at the very early stage.

Gokul Rajaram：我认为首先，早期阶段的规划周期是不同的。

At the very early stage, it needs to be a weekly plan, where while as you grow the granularity, you still need weekly plans, but you also need quarterly plans that wrap around that.

You start with quarterly goals.

您从季度目标开始。

In fact, I was talking to a series A company and they were just starting the first several quarterly plan.

事实上，我正在与一家 A 轮公司交谈，他们刚刚开始前几个季度计划。

They just did series A round, so they need to plan at a quarterly level and then it translates back into the weekly level.

他们刚刚完成了 A 轮融资，因此需要按季度进行计划，然后再转化为每周水平。

When you're very young, you're literally going week to week.

And then once you become much bigger, you get to annual planning, which then leads to quarterly goals and so on.

然后，一旦你变得更大，你就开始制定年度计划，然后制定季度目标等等。

So the granularity is different.

所以粒度不一样。

The second thing is the tools you actually use.

第二件事是你实际使用的工具。

I think initially you just have a very simple spreadsheet.

我想最初你只有一个非常简单的电子表格。

Gokul Rajaram: I am a big believer that you can have all these fancy project management tools.

Gokul Rajaram：我坚信您可以拥有所有这些精美的项目管理工具。

Whenever I've been a leader in a product team, I've never imposed a certain tool because I feel different PMs and teams find the right tool for them.

It's about keeping it super simple.

这是为了保持超级简单。

If you have too many complex tools, people don't know how to use them.

如果你有太多复杂的工具，人们就不知道如何使用它们。

Engineering teams typically use something like Jira, and as a product person you don't want another complex tool for them to use to figure out things.

So a simple spreadsheet, and your founder that you update with things to do and people who are going to do it.

一个简单的电子表格，以及你的创始人，你可以更新要做的事情和要做这件事的人。

And then that's basically it.

基本上就是这样。

I think as you grow, you start wanting to write a little bit more surviving, the first thing you start doing.

我认为随着你的成长，你开始想要写更多的生存内容，这是你开始做的第一件事。

And then as a very young company, you don't have a separate product strategy from a company strategy.

作为一家非常年轻的公司，你没有与公司战略分开的产品战略。

Gokul Rajaram: The product and company strategy are the same.

Gokul Rajaram：产品和公司战略是相同的。

As you start growing, you have a go-to market strategy, product strategy, et cetera, et cetera.

当你开始成长时，你会有市场策略、产品策略等等。

So you start more clearly separating out the company strategy from the product strategy.

因此，您开始更清晰地将公司战略与产品战略分开。

The first thing you start seeing is when a product manager joins...

你开始看到的第一件事就是产品经理加入……

So I think of course what happens is that the 25 person status, you have a PM who sometimes joins the company.

所以我认为当然会发生的情况是，在 25 人的情况下，你有一个有时会加入公司的 PM。

I think the right time for PMs to join the company is about eight to 10 engineers or so.

我觉得PM加入公司合适的时机大概是8到10个工程师左右。

Anywhere between five and 10.

5 到 10 之间的任意位置。

But 10 engineers is...

但是 10 名工程师...

Unless the founder themselves wants to be the PM, but that's when you start seeing a professional PM join and the PM typically wants to clearly articulate.

Good PMs want to articulate what the product strategy is based on company strategy.

优秀的产品经理希望根据公司战略阐明产品战略。

So you start seeing the emergence of a separate product strategy doc that is written at the 20, 23 person stage, and the product strategy then makes choices.

What customers are we serving?

我们为哪些客户服务？

More clearly articulates what have been implicit hopefully earlier.

更清楚地阐明了之前所隐含的内容。

Gokul Rajaram: And then that guides product development.

Gokul Rajaram：然后这指导了产品开发。

And then I think when you get really large, you have essentially multiple interlocking products that there are multiple product strategy docs.

然后我认为，当你变得非常大时，你基本上会拥有多个相互关联的产品，并且有多个产品策略文档。

And then you get into more cross functional strategy docs, into product strategy doc, et cetera.

然后你会进入更多的跨职能策略文档、产品策略文档等等。

But I think at the very core of it, there are two things.

One, the team still needs to meet on a daily basis.

第一，团队仍然需要每天开会。

There is a standup cadence, and that atomic team of six, seven people, which is engineers, product person, designer, hopefully an analyst, they are the product development team.

And they still review the tasks on a weekly basis, but where it emanates from when you're young, it doesn't have any roots.

他们仍然每周回顾一次任务，但它源自你年轻时的地方，没有任何根源。

It's literally, they're just living and dying on a week by week basis, trying different things till they get product market fit.

从字面上看，他们只是一周一周地生和死，尝试不同的事情，直到他们的产品适合市场。

Gokul Rajaram: As you go bigger and you have product market fit, you start building plans around that.

Gokul Rajaram：当你规模更大并且产品市场适合时，你就开始围绕它制定计划。

And these iterations, these sprints then emanate working back from the goals that you set on a quarterly basis.

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

So much good advice.

这么多好的建议。

There's a couple things I want to follow up on there.

我想跟进一些事情。

What are some common pitfalls you've seen in startups trying to set up product development processes or the way they build product?

What do you find are some of the more common mistakes that founders make?

您发现创始人最常犯的错误有哪些？

That early teams make?

早期团队能做到什么？

Gokul Rajaram: The biggest one I think is, the founder becomes too tactical and disempowers their team.

Gokul Rajaram：我认为最大的一个问题是，创始人变得过于战术化，削弱了团队的力量。

I think the founder thinks they know what customers want.

我认为创始人认为他们知道客户想要什么。

I think they don't empower their teams enough and they basically just tell the engineers what to build.

And I think that leads to teams that are basically tactically just shaping feature after feature without truly solving problems.

And I think that then creeps into when you hire a PM, they see this is how the company's working and they then also start working the same way.

I think the best founders early on trust their engineering teams and product development teams to solve problems and more clearly present a problem to them and help them.

我认为最好的创始人很早就信任他们的工程团队和产品开发团队能够解决问题，并更清楚地向他们提出问题并帮助他们。

And this is true for PMs also.

对于产品经理来说也是如此。

They help them brainstorm solutions and try to work with the team to understand why we chose a certain solution versus another solution.

And then the team feels empowered to go build it versus it dictating them.

Gokul Rajaram: Why should we build an iOS app, while the actual problem to solve is we want to increase the percentage of people using a service to five times a week versus two times a week.

And building an iOS app is one tactic, but there are many other tactics.

Which is improving our web experience, et cetera.

So decision making and transparency of decisions around how products change customer behavior is probably the...

And that leads to the culture of what is called a feature factory, where product teams basically are very proud of shaping feature after feature without truly knowing how much impact the feature has.

这导致了所谓的功能工厂的文化，其中产品团队基本上对一个又一个功能的塑造感到非常自豪，而不真正知道功能有多大影响。

If a feature is shipped, but it doesn't change customer behavior at all, is it really a feature or no?

It's like a tree falling in the forest.

就像一棵树倒在森林里一样。

Lenny: Oh my god, I love that.

莱尼：天哪，我喜欢这个。

And I've definitely seen these teams that you're talking about and that only becomes worse once they hire a PM.

I like your rule of thumb of hiring a PM when you've gotten eight to 10 engineers.

我喜欢你在拥有 8 到 10 名工程师时雇用一名 PM 的经验法则。

What points to it's time to hire a PM, other than that?

除此之外，还有什么表明是时候聘请产品经理了呢？

Is there other things you've seen of just like, "Oh my god, this team really needs a PM," or they should wait longer?

What have you seen there?

你在那里看到了什么？

Gokul Rajaram: I always feel that you should hire to solve a problem you're facing.

Gokul Rajaram：我一直认为你应该雇佣来解决你面临的问题。

You should never hire...

你永远不应该雇用...

Or you feel you're going to face.

或者你觉得你要面对。

But especially I think just over-hiring, especially...

但我特别认为过度招聘，尤其是......

You want to be efficient and smaller teams are always good.

Smaller companies are always good, part of the problem.

So there are many teams.

所以有很多团队。

First of all, the question is if the founder is able to play the role, someone needs to play the role of a product manager.

首先，问题是创始人是否能够扮演这个角色，需要有人扮演产品经理的角色。

If the founder is able to and willing to play the role of product manager.

如果创始人有能力并且愿意扮演产品经理的角色。

The problem is with eight to 10 engineers, if the founder is doing other things besides playing the role of a product manager, then the eight to 10 person engineering team is not being cared for and fed.

问题是，8到10名工程师，如果创始人除了扮演产品经理的角色之外还做其他事情，那么8到10人的工程团队就得不到照顾和养活。

Gokul Rajaram: Engineers are by far the most expensive resources in the company.

Gokul Rajaram：工程师是公司迄今为止最昂贵的资源。

By far, right?

到目前为止，对吧？

I mean if you look at the composition of engineers versus...

我的意思是，如果你看看工程师的构成与......

And PMs versus any other function, it's two to three, equity, cash, everything.

与任何其他职能相比，产品经理是两到三人，股权，现金，一切。

Gokul Rajaram: And if you think of it that way, then if you're not caring and feeding and not leveraging this amazing most expensive resource, well, that's a crime.

Gokul Rajaram：如果你这样想，那么如果你不关心、不喂养、不利用这个令人惊叹的最昂贵的资源，那么，那就是犯罪。

That's a crime.

这是犯罪行为。

In some ways you got to think about yourself.

在某些方面你必须考虑一下自己。

Am I, as the founder, is this 10 person team or 8 person team being leveraged?

我作为创始人，这个10人团队还是8人团队被杠杆化了？

Are they solving the right problems?

他们是否解决了正确的问题？

Do they know how to brainstorm?

他们知道如何集思广益吗？

Do they know how to solve problems?

他们知道如何解决问题吗？

Do I have the bandwidth to sit with them and present the right problems, talk to customers, figure out the right sequencing, the right prioritization of problems to work on, et cetera?

我是否有足够的能力与他们坐在一起提出正确的问题，与客户交谈，找出正确的顺序，确定要解决的问题的正确优先顺序，等等？

Gokul Rajaram: And if you're not able to do that, you've got to have someone who can do that full time.

Gokul Rajaram：如果你做不到这一点，你就必须有人可以全职做这件事。

And it might be someone from the team.

也可能是团队中的某个人。

I mean there are two...

我的意思是有两个...

We can talk about how to hire your first PM and there are many, many-

我们可以讨论如何雇用你的第一位产品经理，有很多很多-

Lenny: Yeah, let's do it.

莱尼：是啊，我们就这么做吧。

I definitely wanted to ask that.

我确实想问这个。

I know you wrote a great post about this, just how to actually hire your great PM and you have a strong opinion about that.

我知道你写了一篇关于这个的很棒的文章，讲述了如何真正雇用你的优秀产品经理，并且你对此有强烈的看法。

Gokul Rajaram: Yeah, I have a strong opinion and it might be just based on every single company I've been at.

Gokul Rajaram：是的，我有一个强烈的观点，它可能只是基于我去过的每家公司。

The first PM at every company has been someone who's either been an analyst or an engineer or a designer who's worked there already and they just move from their role to being a PM.

每家公司的第一位产品经理都是曾经在那里工作过的分析师、工程师或设计师，他们只是从自己的角色转变为产品经理。

Why?

为什么？

Because many cases, the role of the PM is actually to be the liaison between the founder, founders and the engineering team.

因为很多情况下，PM的角色实际上就是充当创始人、创始人和工程团队之间的联络人。

And so it needs to be someone that the founders trust and the engineering team trusts and also they know how the founders and the engineering team work.

因此，它需要是创始人信任和工程团队信任的人，并且他们知道创始人和工程团队如何工作。

Gokul Rajaram: And many times if you bring a PM from the outside with a completely different process, many times the organ can be rejected by the body.

Gokul Rajaram：很多时候，如果你从外部带来一个完全不同的过程的 PM，很多时候器官会被身体排斥。

And so they may not be the best PM you could get in terms of just functional skills, but they would be the best PM from a cultural assimilation.

因此，就职能技能而言，他们可能不是最好的 PM，但从文化同化角度来看，他们将是最好的 PM。

And getting the engineers just to understand the value of a PM and getting the founders to be comfortable, slowly being more hands off.

让工程师了解产品经理的价值，让创始人感到舒服，慢慢地不再插手。

Was it true of Airbnb, also?

Airbnb 也是如此吗？

Was Joe not the first PM?

乔不是第一任总理吗？

Lenny: He was.

莱尼：他是。

And he was actually an engineer when he joined, so that's exactly how you describe.

他加入时实际上是一名工程师，所以这正是你所描述的。

So say that you hire, or you transition someone from PM into their...

所以说你雇佣了一个人，或者你把某人从 PM 转变为他们的……

Being the first PM.

作为第一任总理。

What are some signs that maybe they're not doing too well and things aren't going well and maybe you should go in a different direction?

有哪些迹象表明他们可能做得不太好，事情进展不顺利，也许你应该朝不同的方向走？

Gokul Rajaram: I think the biggest one is I always feel with PMs it's actually two or three things you can look at.

Gokul Rajaram：我认为最大的一个是我总是觉得对于产品经理来说，实际上你可以关注两到三件事。

One is, you can actually just ask the engineers themselves.

一是，你实际上可以直接询问工程师本人。

Engineers are fairly blunt.

工程师们相当直率。

And when I manage PMs, I've seen that they always tell me...

当我管理产品经理时，我发现他们总是告诉我......

Engineering managers in particular, they're very, very quick to tell you, "Look, this person is not working, they're not being effective."

特别是工程经理，他们非常非常快地告诉你，“看，这个人没有工作，他们没有效率。”

Gokul Rajaram: What value are they adding?

Gokul Rajaram：它们增加了什么价值？

And I think just number one thing you have to do is you have to, just because you hire a PM doesn't...

我认为你必须做的第一件事就是你必须这样做，仅仅因为你雇佣了一名产品经理并不......

You can't abdicate that responsibility of understanding how the team is doing.

你不能放弃了解团队表现的责任。

It's not gone.

它并没有消失。

You've got to talk to the engineers and designers constantly to see, is the product manager adding value?

你必须不断地与工程师和设计师交谈，看看产品经理是否增加了价值？

Second, if you see the PM, the newly anointed PM still get too much into the how to build the product, which is really the domain of the engineers and designers.

其次，如果你看到 PM，新任命的 PM 仍然过多地关注如何构建产品，这实际上是工程师和设计师的领域。

Gokul Rajaram: See?

戈库尔·拉贾拉姆：看到了吗？

That's the other failure case where you've got to...

这是另一个失败案例，你必须...

And this is something through coaching comes.

这是通过辅导而来的。

Obviously they just were an engineer or designer two weeks ago and now they are a PM.

显然，两周前他们只是一名工程师或设计师，现在他们是一名产品经理。

There's a immediate impulse to start going back into their comfort zone.

他们立刻就会有一种想要回到舒适区的冲动。

And the key is to really push them to go more strongly biased towards customers and push them more towards talking to customers, understanding customer problems.

关键是真正促使他们更加偏向于客户，并促使他们更多地与客户交谈，了解客户的问题。

And I think every PM, we all know this, all of us as PMs, there was no class to be a PM.

我想每一位 PM，我们都知道这一点，我们所有人都作为 PM，没有阶级之分。

So there are some people who joined APM programs directly out of school, but most of us are engineers, marketers, analysts, designers.

所以有些人从学校直接就加入了APM项目，但我们大多数人都是工程师、营销人员、分析师、设计师。

And we became PMs after that.

之后我们就成为了产品经理。

So we all come with inherent biases and ways of doing things and it's only a function of how long it takes us to shed...

所以我们都有固有的偏见和做事方式，这只是我们需要多长时间才能摆脱的函数......

Or at least to not be that persona, but to actually take on a PM persona.

或者至少不要成为那个角色，而是真正扮演一个PM的角色。

Gokul Rajaram: And so I personally believe in the growth mindset a lot.

Gokul Rajaram：所以我个人非常相信成长心态。

The reason that hopefully this person was chosen to be the PM is the founder saw that this person has the characteristics, traits, which is curiosity, the customer centricity, communication skills, being able to facilitate discussion, all of those things that a PM should have.

希望这个人被选为PM的原因是创始人看到这个人有一些特质，特质，就是好奇心，以客户为中心，沟通能力，能够促进讨论，所有这些都是PM应该具备的东西。

Problem solving skills.

解决问题的能力。

And so hopefully those are things they didn't just pick a random engineer out of the 10, but they picked the right engineer, the right designer.

因此，希望他们不仅仅是从 10 名工程师中随机挑选一名工程师，而是挑选合适的工程师、合适的设计师。

And I think if you do that and you surround them with some good mentors, I think in six months they'll make good PMs.

我认为如果你这样做，并且在他们周围有一些好的导师，我想在六个月内他们就会成为优秀的产品经理。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Maybe just try randomly.

也许只是随机尝试。

You never know.

你永远不知道。

Lenny: Just to close the loop on the idea of when it's time to hire a PM, somebody may be listening to this and feeling like, "Oh, we got to get a PM in ASAP." What are some signs or reasons to wait a little bit longer before you hire your first PM?

Lenny：为了结束何时该聘请 PM 的想法，有人可能会听到这个并感觉，“哦，我们必须尽快找到一名 PM。”在聘请第一位产品经理之前，有哪些迹象或理由需要等待一段时间？

Gokul Rajaram: If everything is going well?

Gokul Rajaram：如果一切顺利的话？

In other words, if your product team is clicking, if they're empowered and if you feel that they can take problems that you're giving them, not just tactics, but they're able to take a problem.

换句话说，如果你的产品团队正在努力，如果他们被授权，如果你觉得他们可以解决你给他们的问题，不仅仅是策略，而是他们有能力解决问题。

Hey, we need to improve new user acquisition and the product team, the whatever, your product development team, which is just engineers able to take that and essentially act on it and suggest three different ways to improve user acquisition.

嘿，我们需要改善新用户获取和产品团队，无论如何，你的产品开发团队，只有工程师能够接受这一点并基本上采取行动，并提出三种不同的方法来改善用户获取。

Gokul Rajaram: For example, choose the one that has the best ROI, how you measure it, and then execute on that and then run a test to say, "Look, it did improve user acquisition?" That's a well defined product team.

Gokul Rajaram：例如，选择具有最佳投资回报率的一个，如何衡量它，然后执行它，然后运行测试说，“看，它确实提高了用户获取？”这是一个明确的产品团队。

So I think you need an empowered product team that takes ownership and can take a problem, figure out all the options to solve the problem and then prioritize them.

因此，我认为您需要一个授权的产品团队，该团队拥有所有权并可以解决问题，找出解决问题的所有选项，然后确定它们的优先级。

And so if you feel that's happening, you don't need a PM.

因此，如果您觉得这种情况正在发生，那么您就不需要产品经理。

But I've seen that it's hard as engineering teams grow.

但我发现随着工程团队的壮大，这变得很困难。

To engineers, I think they do need that partner.

对于工程师来说，我认为他们确实需要这样的合作伙伴。

They really that partner to help facilitate that for the most part.

他们确实是在很大程度上帮助促进这一目标的合作伙伴。

Lenny: That's awesome advice.

莱尼：这是很棒的建议。

And yeah, I think that's going to be-

是的，我想那会是——

Gokul Rajaram: I think infrastructure is a great example.

Gokul Rajaram：我认为基础设施是一个很好的例子。

I think Stripe for example, is famous for not hiring PMs because I think when your audience is developers, they know their audience really well.

我认为 Stripe 因不雇用产品经理而闻名，因为我认为当你的受众是开发人员时，他们非常了解自己的受众。

And so I think many dev ops and developer facing companies, they don't have that many PMs.

因此，我认为许多面向开发人员和开发人员的公司，他们没有那么多 PM。

The PM to engineering ratio is very small.

PM 与工程的比例非常小。

Even in Stripe today I bet it's much smaller than other companies.

即使在今天的 Stripe，我敢打赌它也比其他公司小得多。

So those are exceptions that engineers truly understand the domain better.

因此，这些都是工程师真正更好地理解该领域的例外。

So the machine learning companies, infrastructure companies generally I think need fewer PMs.

因此，我认为机器学习公司、基础设施公司通常需要较少的产品经理。

And this is true for any consumer product company.

对于任何消费品公司来说都是如此。

I bet Airbnb's infrastructure team had zero PMs, or very few PMs because they are serving other engineers.

我敢打赌 Airbnb 的基础设施团队的 PM 为零，或者说 PM 很少，因为他们为其他工程师服务。

So I think those products, I think you need much fewer PMs than consumer facing products.

所以我认为这些产品比面向消费者的产品需要更少的产品经理。

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Lenny：本集由 Productboard 为您带来。

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Lenny: Yeah, I have a post where I have a whole table of how long companies waited before they got their first PM.

Lenny：是的，我有一篇文章，其中有一整套表格，记录了公司在找到第一位产品经理之前等待了多长时间。

I think Snapchat had like 200 people also, but I think it's because their designers basically played the role of a PM.

我认为 Snapchat 也有大约 200 人，但我认为这是因为他们的设计师基本上扮演了 PM 的角色。

Gokul Rajaram: There we go, that's right.

Gokul Rajaram：就是这样，没错。

The designers played the role of the PM.

设计师扮演了PM的角色。

Lenny: Somebody's got to be doing the job, right?

莱尼：总得有人来做这项工作，对吧？

Hopefully they enjoy it, sometimes they don't.

希望他们喜欢它，有时他们不喜欢。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So say you've hired your first PM, you're building a product team.

假设您已经聘请了第一位产品经理，您正在组建一个产品团队。

Something I wanted to get your take on is, as PM teams grow, sometimes they end up changing who they're reporting to.

我想了解您的看法是，随着 PM 团队的成长，有时他们最终会改变向谁报告。

Sometimes it ends up being a CPO, sometimes a GM, sometimes like even a CTO in some cases.

有时最终会成为 CPO，有时是 GM，有时甚至是 CTO。

Do you have any thoughts on when it makes sense for product teams to report to say a GM versus a chief product officer or something else?

您对产品团队何时报告总经理、首席产品官或其他职位是否有意义有何想法？

Do you have any advice there?

你有什么建议吗？

Gokul Rajaram: Yeah, I've worked at companies where it's both functional, products orgs are functional.

Gokul Rajaram：是的，我曾在一些公司工作过，这些公司的职能部门和产品组织都是职能部门。

Where all the PMs report into the head of product, reports to a CEO, as well as a GM structure where PMs report into a GM, as do an engineering leader and a design leader and even a sales leader, marketing leader, et cetera.

所有 PM 都向产品负责人汇报，向 CEO 汇报；在 GM 结构中，PM 向 GM 汇报，工程领导者和设计领导者甚至销售领导者、营销领导者等也是如此。

So both can work, but ultimately you want, I do think once you have three to four PMs, you do want those three to four PMs to report to a functional product leader just because I feel they want a mentor, first of all.

所以两者都可以工作，但最终你希望，我确实认为一旦你有三到四名产品经理，你确实希望这三到四名产品经理向功能产品领导者报告，因为我觉得他们首先需要一位导师。

They want a coach.

他们想要一名教练。

And you want to build a product culture and hopefully discipline across those four or five PMs because the leverage you get.

你想要建立一种产品文化，并希望在这四五个产品经理之间建立纪律，因为你可以获得影响力。

Someone said this, I think a few years ago, I remember this, engineers are obviously very important to hire, but a bad PM...

有人说过这个，我想几年前，我记得这个，工程师显然很重要，但是一个糟糕的PM......

You can get incredible errors from a good PM, but a bad PM can really screw up, can screw up the work of 10 engineers.

一个好的 PM 可能会犯出令人难以置信的错误，但一个坏的 PM 真的会搞砸，可以搞砸 10 个工程师的工作。

Gokul Rajaram: So it's much more important to hire good PM than it is to hire a good engineer.

Gokul Rajaram：因此，聘请优秀的产品经理比聘请优秀的工程师重要得多。

Any good one.

任何一个都好。

Because there's so few PMs for every engineer, that one good or bad PM can really screw up everything, compared to the impact of one good or bad engineer.

因为每个工程师的 PM 太少了，所以与一个好或坏的工程师的影响相比，一个好或坏的 PM 确实可以搞砸一切。

So what that means for me is that if you have four or five PMs, and the one way to up level them is to actually make sure the four together are sharing best practices, learning, hopefully building a culture.

所以这对我来说意味着，如果你有四到五个产品经理，提升他们水平的一个方法就是确保这四个人一起分享最佳实践、学习，并希望建立一种文化。

And I think it's hard for a GM who's also managing other functions to do that.

我认为对于同时管理其他职能的总经理来说很难做到这一点。

Gokul Rajaram: So I would say yes, maybe one or two PMs could report into a CEO or a GM or someone else, but once you get into a four or five PM team, they probably should report to a dedicated of product manager whose job is to be a mentor, be a coach, attract strong new folks to the team, hire, build a strong culture, et cetera, et cetera.

Gokul Rajaram：所以我想说是的，也许一两个 PM 可以向 CEO、GM 或其他人汇报，但是一旦你进入四到五个 PM 团队，他们可能应该向一名专门的产品经理汇报，他的工作是成为导师、教练、吸引强大的新人加入团队、雇用、建立强大的文化等等。

Gokul Rajaram: That product manager, I think they could report to the CTO, they could report to the CEO, they could report to the GM.

Gokul Rajaram：那个产品经理，我认为他们可以向首席技术官报告，他们可以向首席执行官报告，他们可以向总经理报告。

I don't think that matters.

我认为这并不重要。

But the ICPMs is what I'm more worried about.

但植检临委是我更担心的。

Who do they report into?

他们向谁汇报？

I think they should report into a dedicated manager once it gets a certain size.

我认为一旦规模达到一定规模，他们应该向专门的经理汇报。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I could not agree more.

我完全同意。

Another thing I've seen, as a lot of companies go one direction, they go GM models, then they go back to something else where it's completely business unit oriented and functional reporting and then they go back.

我看到的另一件事是，许多公司都朝一个方向发展，他们采用通用汽车模式，然后又回到其他方向这里完全是面向业务部门的职能报告，然后他们就回去了。

So I found it, just try something.

所以我找到了，尝试一下。

See if that works.

看看是否有效。

You can always change it in the future.

您将来随时可以更改它。

That's super common.

这太常见了。

Lenny: I wanted to transition to hiring, talk about hiring.

莱尼：我想转向招聘，谈谈招聘。

You recently had this incredible thread on Twitter about how to hire a leader and I think maybe just a product leader, maybe broadly, leader.

最近，您在 Twitter 上发布了一条关于如何聘用领导者的令人难以置信的帖子，我认为也许只是产品领导者，也许更广泛地是领导者。

And so for folks that haven't seen that or have time to go on Twitter, I'd love to just hear your advice on how to hire a leader for a company.

因此，对于那些还没有看过或有时间上 Twitter 的人来说，我很想听听你们关于如何为公司聘请领导者的建议。

Gokul Rajaram: That post actually was triggered by, that morning, one of my company CEO messaged me that, "Wow, I hired someone from this company.

How'd you know this person was available from this company?" I was like, "I didn't know about this person, I just knew this company was really good at sales.

你怎么知道这家公司有这个人？”我当时想，“我不认识这个人，我只知道这家公司非常擅长销售。

And so that's why I recommended the company." And he said, "This is the third time I hired based on advice you gave and these are all senior leaders here.

这就是我推荐这家公司的原因。”他说：“这是我第三次根据你的建议进行聘用，这些都是高级领导。

How did you do that?" I'm like, "Actually, thinking about it, you're right."

你是怎么做到的？”我想，“事实上，仔细想想，你是对的。”

Gokul Rajaram: When companies ask me...

Gokul Rajaram：当公司问我时......

Because the number one, if you ever ask a company, "What's the thing that's keeping you up at night?" They'll always say one of the things always that's keeping them at night, "I want to hire a leader for X, Y, Z function." And I never respond with, here's a person.

因为第一，如果你问一家公司，“是什么让你彻夜难眠？”他们总会说一件让他们彻夜难眠的事情：“我想聘请一位负责 X、Y、Z 职能的领导者。”我从来没有回应过，这是一个人。

I'll always say, "Well, you're in this space selling to this kind of customer or serving this kind of customer.

我总是会说：“好吧，你在这个领域向这类客户销售或为这类客户提供服务。

Let's think about the best in class companies, who's also, who's very good at functionally the thing you're hiring for, serving the similar type of customer."

Gokul Rajaram: And so basically that was the origin of the post.

And really what it says is, in order to hire, if you want to have a playbook for hiring good leaders or strong leaders for any function, look at best of class companies or companies that are best of class at that function in the similar space.

Not your competitors, but you've got to look beyond your competitors.

不是你的竞争对手，但你必须放眼超越你的竞争对手。

You've got to look at folks who are serving SMBs or enterprises or whatever this...

你必须看看那些为中小型企业或企业或其他任何服务提供服务的人......

Or consumers.

或者消费者。

And then say, "Okay, I want to hire a head of marketing." Great.

然后说：“好吧，我想聘请一名营销主管。”伟大的。

This is the hardest thing.

这是最难的事情。

Go to find the top three or four companies who are excellent at marketing to consumers.

去寻找最擅长向消费者进行营销的前三四家公司。

If that's what you're...

如果那是你的话...

Then you don't hire the person, the head of marketing at these companies.

那么你就不会雇用这些公司的营销主管。

Gokul Rajaram: You hire the person who's reporting to them, the lieutenant.

Gokul Rajaram：你雇用向他们报告的人，即中尉。

And actually, Adam Zamos, who was the head of people at Square chimed into say, "At Square, early days we used to go..." He used to run people, the people team at Square.

事实上，Square 的负责人 Adam Zamos 也插话道：“在 Square，早期我们常常去……”他曾经负责管理 Square 的人员团队。

"We used to go and hire the up and coming lieutenants of the lieutenants." And so I think you basically have to build almost an org chart and it's not that hard.

"We used to go and hire the up and coming lieutenants of the lieutenants."所以我认为你基本上必须建立一个组织结构图，这并不难。

You just have to spend time on LinkedIn, to say who are all the people in the org?

你只需要花时间在 LinkedIn 上，说出组织中的所有人员都是谁？

Who reports to?

向谁汇报？

And you can ask some of your friends who work at a company to better construct the org chart and you just literally go through that company and pick out the people.

你可以请一些在公司工作的朋友更好地构建组织结构图，你只需逐字逐句地浏览该公司并挑选出人员即可。

And I saw this in practice because once Square went public, we were the only public finTech in 2015, one of the very few public fintechs.

我在实践中看到了这一点，因为一旦 Square 上市，我们就是 2015 年唯一的上市金融科技公司，也是极少数的上市金融科技公司之一。

Gokul Rajaram: And so my goodness, our teams were raided.

Gokul Rajaram：天啊，我们的团队遭到了袭击。

The next two years, I literally saw the full team, a huge chunk of a team in different parts of payments, compliance, risk, just being raided by other fintechs.

接下来的两年，我确实看到了整个团队，支付、合规、风险不同部分的团队的很大一部分，只是被其他金融科技公司袭击。

And I saw that this was being followed.

我看到这正在被遵循。

Because you say, "Okay, who's the company who's best in being in compliance?

Square." And I'm sure there are other companies also, but Square was well known because it was public and it was large, they had done it at scale, et cetera.

广场。”我确信还有其他公司，但 Square 之所以出名，是因为它是公开的，而且规模很大，他们已经大规模地做到了这一点，等等。

They didn't go after our head, they went after the lieutenant and the lieutenant of the lieutenant, et cetera.

Lenny: I see.

莱尼：我明白了。

So you saw this happening to you and then you've weaponized it in reverse.

所以你看到这种情况发生在你身上，然后你就反过来将其武器化。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Great advice.

很好的建议。

I've never heard this advice before and it sounds incredibly good.

我以前从未听过这个建议，听起来非常好。

And so thank you for sharing all that.

感谢您分享这一切。

Thank you.

谢谢。

On the front of hiring, how much time do you think founders and leaders should spend on hiring?

What percentage of their time have you seen the best founders and leaders spend?

Gokul Rajaram: Obviously you've got to always be hiring.

Even today, I think Tony and DoorDash, if you have good strong people, you'll always say, "Please make the intro if you have some amazing people," because you never know what you learn from these people, even if you don't end up hiring them.

即使在今天，我认为托尼和 DoorDash，如果你有优秀而强大的人，你总是会说，“如果你有一些了不起的人，请做介绍”，因为你永远不知道你从这些人身上学到了什么，即使你最终没有雇用他们。

So, always want to meet great people.

所以，总是想认识伟大的人。

But I think in general a founder of a young company should spend I think two hours a day hiring and you should do it during the time.

I think the challenge in hiring is, you've got to build a process first of all, and that takes a lot of heavy metal work, the right process for you to make sure you do reach out.

我认为招聘的挑战是，你必须首先建立一个流程，这需要大量的繁重工作，正确的流程可以确保你确实能够接触到人才。

And again, there are two parts of hiring, there's a lot of reaching out to people and then there's actually talking to people.

So I would suggest spending one hour a day doing the reach outs and there it should almost be busy work because you almost figure out the process.

因此，我建议每天花一小时进行外展工作，这应该是一项繁忙的工作，因为您几乎弄清楚了流程。

Gokul Rajaram: So you should do it during the time of day where you don't have to put a lot of mental...

Like, you don't need to be fresh because you need the fresh work for your actual company that you're running.

But you need some time, fresh time to come up with the right process.

How do you do LinkedIn reach out?

LinkedIn 如何进行联系？

Or whatever tools you use to reach out to.

或者您用来联系的任何工具。

Who are the types of profiles, what roles you want to prioritize.

So you need to find the right hour to do that in.

所以你需要找到合适的时间来做这件事。

The second hour should be devoted to actually meeting one or two people on a daily basis, and that's two half an hour conversations.

Gokul Rajaram: So I think if you just do that, you'll actually, over even 30 days, think about it, you'll meet with 60 people.

And you'll do 30 hours of LinkedIn's, just two hours out of say 10 hours a day.

And let's say 20 hours, 20 days.

假设 20 个小时，20 天。

So instead of 30.

所以不是 30。

Because of weekday, that's still a lot of time.

因为是工作日，所以时间还是很多的。

So I think two hours.

所以我想两个小时。

Use Calendar.

使用日历。

Calendar is your best friend there, use calendar.

日历是你最好的朋友，使用日历。

And I think that's more than enough to do really well on recruiting.

我认为这足以在招聘方面做得很好。

Lenny: I'm guessing that you can see a pretty big difference between the founders that you work with that do this sort of process and put in the time, and don't?

莱尼：我猜你会发现与你一起工作的创始人之间存在相当大的差异，他们会做这种流程并投入时间，不是吗？

Gokul Rajaram: One hundred percent.

Gokul Rajaram：百分之一百。

I think putting in the process upfront is really important because you can flounder around, and then just spending a few, four, five hours upfront, talking to a few folks, coming with a good process can massively improve the because they say, right, it's all about once you aim the strategy or the direction you're going is much more important than the speed you go in.

我认为提前制定流程非常重要，因为你可能会陷入困境，然后只需提前花几个、四个、五个小时，与几个人交谈，制定一个良好的流程就可以极大地改进，因为他们说，对，一旦你瞄准了战略或你前进的方向，就比你前进的速度更重要。

Gokul Rajaram: If you go in the wrong direction, it doesn't matter how fast you go, you're screwed.

Gokul Rajaram：如果你走错了方向，无论你走得多快，你都会完蛋。

But if you go in the right direction, even if you go slightly slower, you're going to get there.

但如果你朝着正确的方向前进，即使你走得慢一点，你也会到达那里。

So I think it's very important to set the direction of hiring, how exactly are you going to hire, what the process is, what your messaging is going to be, and really make sure you nail that before you do stuff.

因此，我认为设定招聘方向非常重要，你到底要如何招聘，流程是什么，你要传达的信息是什么，并确保在做事之前确定这一点。

Lenny: Once you've hired someone, you give them a title.

莱尼：一旦你雇佣了某人，你就给他们一个头衔。

I know you have some strong opinions about titles and how to think about titles at startups and I'd love to hear your take on that.

我知道您对头衔以及如何思考初创公司的头衔有一些强烈的看法，我很想听听您对此的看法。

Gokul Rajaram: Yeah, I think on titles, I personally feel that if you're young, you have a unique opportunity as a founder to set a culture in place where people care about scope and impact much more than they would titles.

Gokul Rajaram：是的，我认为在头衔方面，我个人认为，如果你很年轻，作为创始人，你有一个独特的机会来建立一种文化，让人们比头衔更关心范围和影响力。

The titles I'm most opposed to, to be honest, I'm not opposed to titles.

我最反对的头衔，说实话，我并不反对头衔。

I think, tweeted about this and people interpret to think no one should have any titles.

我认为，在推特上谈论此事时，人们会认为任何人都不应该拥有任何头衔。

Titles, people...

标题、人...

You want someone to be called a software engineer so you know what they're doing.

您希望某人被称为软件工程师，这样您就知道他们在做什么。

But the titles I'm most against are director and VP titles.

但我最反对的头衔是总监和副总裁头衔。

Director, senior director.

董事、高级董事。

Because those are the titles that lead to the most contention in the company, that lead to the most conflict, that lead to the most disgruntlement and heartache and managers having to constantly...

因为这些头衔会在公司中引起最多的争论，导致最多的冲突，导致最多的不满和心痛，而管理者必须不断地……

And people basically staying on for the title, to put it bluntly, versus because their scope and impact.

坦率地说，人们基本上是为了这个头衔而留下来的，而不是因为他们的范围和影响力。

Gokul Rajaram: But I'm also against giving titles too early in a company.

Gokul Rajaram：但我也反对在公司过早授予头衔。

For example, I think the general counsel is a good title.

例如，我认为总法律顾问是一个很好的头衔。

I think Wall Street cares about it.

我认为华尔街很关心这个。

It's important to hear who general counsel is, but I was meeting with a 25 person company today and that CEO told me...

了解总法律顾问是谁很重要，但我今天与一家 25 人的公司会面，首席执行官告诉我……

I was like, I always talk about what keeps you up at night?

我当时想，我总是谈论是什么让你彻夜难眠？

And this company's in somewhat of a legal heavy space.

这家公司所处的法律环境有些复杂。

He is like, "I need to hire a general counsel instantly." I said, "Listen, yes, I know you need to hire a lead lawyer, whatever you call them.

他说，“我需要立即聘请一名总法律顾问。”我说：“听着，是的，我知道你需要聘请一位首席律师，无论你怎么称呼他们。

Or head of legal, but do not give the general counsel title at a 25 person company because the person at a 250 person company, hopefully you're going to be that in two, three years.

或者法律主管，但不要在一家 25 人的公司中担任总法律顾问的头衔，因为在一家 250 人的公司中，希望你在两三年内就能成为这样的人。

It's going to be very different than the GC now.

它将与现在的 GC 有很大不同。

And you might, you still want to retain this person most likely because they're good.

你可能仍然想保留这个人，很可能是因为他们很优秀。

Gokul Rajaram: You just don't want them to be the general counsel.

Gokul Rajaram：你只是不想让他们担任总法律顾问。

She's over and over again.

她一遍又一遍。

And so, there are certain times you only can give once and if you give it to early, you can't then...

所以，有些时候你只能给予一次，如果你提前给予，你就不能......

That's the reason to avoid title as long as possible.

这就是尽可能长时间避免头衔的原因。

If you give the VP engineering title at 25 people, how the heck are you ever going to have upgrade that person, upgrade that role?

如果你给 25 个人授予工程副总裁头衔，你到底要如何升级这个人、升级那个角色呢？

You have to basically let them go because you can't then say, "This VP of engineering, now you're going to be made director of engineering or something," et cetera.

你基本上必须让他们离开，因为你不能说，“这位工程副总裁，现在你将被任命为工程总监或其他什么，”等等。

It's very challenging.

这非常具有挑战性。

Lenny: When I look at your LinkedIn, it's always funny because I think you're just like, "Startup helper," or when you were running Caviar, I think it was like, "Someone at Caviar," or something very vague.

Lenny：当我看你的 LinkedIn 时，它总是很有趣，因为我认为你就像是“创业助手”，或者当你运行 Caviar 时，我认为它就像“Caviar 的某人”，或者一些非常模糊的东西。

Clearly you live that yourself.

显然你自己就是这样生活的。

Gokul Rajaram: And I saw the impact of it.

Gokul Rajaram：我看到了它的影响。

I saw at, Square I think was the company, and I think Jack came up with this because he saw that Twitter titles were weaponized in different ways.

我在 Square 上看到，我认为是这家公司，我认为 Jack 之所以想出这个，是因为他看到 Twitter 标题以不同的方式被武器化。

And so he started this at square and that's where I truly saw the impact and never had a single discussion at Square with my team about what the title should be.

所以他在 Square 开始了这个项目，在那里我真正看到了影响，并且在 Square 上从未与我的团队讨论过标题应该是什么。

And that was amazing.

那真是太棒了。

At other companies, always, "I want to be promoted director.

在其他公司，总是“我想晋升为总监。

I want to be promoted to senior director." It's always, during promotion time.

我想晋升为高级总监。” 总是在晋升期间。

If you ask person what their goal is, even personal goals, sometimes they'll even write, I want to be promoted to director, but never had that.

如果你问一个人他们的目标是什么，甚至是个人目标，有时他们甚至会写，我想晋升为总监，但从来没有这样过。

Gokul Rajaram: Had stuff of course around scope, impact, compensation, that's great.

Gokul Rajaram：当然有关于范围、影响、补偿的东西，这很棒。

I want to have conversation about that, but title?

我想谈谈这个，但是标题？

No.

不。

Lenny: And just to summarize your advice there, what's kind of the role of thumb of titles if someone hasn't read that post?

莱尼：总结一下你的建议，如果有人没有读过那篇文章，那么标题的作用是什么？

Gokul Rajaram: Delay it as long as possible and try to avoid granting director and VP level titles as long as possible, in particular.

Gokul Rajaram：尽可能推迟，尤其是尽量避免授予董事和副总裁级别的头衔。

Lenny: Easy.

莱尼：简单。

And then delay it, meaning have-

然后推迟它，意味着有-

Lenny: And delaying titles, meaning like anything other than just software engineer, product management?

莱尼：推迟头衔，意味着除了软件工程师、产品管理之外的其他头衔吗？

Gokul Rajaram: Software engineer, lead.

Gokul Rajaram：软件工程师，主管。

The word lead, or head of are both good, because the head of very clearly describes what they do or lead also very clearly describes what they do.

“lead”或“head of”这个词都很好，因为“head of”非常清楚地描述了他们所做的事情，或者“lead”也非常清楚地描述了他们所做的事情。

So my title was Caviar Lead and then the people who reported to me were Caviar product lead, Caviar engineering lead, Caviar strategy and operations lead, Caviar sales lead, et cetera.

所以我的头衔是鱼子酱主管，然后向我报告的人是鱼子酱产品主管、鱼子酱工程主管、鱼子酱战略和运营主管、鱼子酱销售主管等等。

And so the more words that are in the title, the more focused their role is.

因此，标题中的单词越多，他们的角色就越集中。

In fact, you can look at Jack's new title, it's Block Head, so it's literally not senior anymore.

事实上，你可以看看杰克的新头衔，它是“Block Head”，所以它实际上不再是高级了。

Gokul Rajaram: It's head of block, a block leader I would say probably should be more appropriate.

Gokul Rajaram：这是区块链的负责人，我认为区块链的领导者可能应该更合适。

He's a leader block, and then so on, it premieres down.

他是一个领导者，然后等等，它首映下来。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's incredibly valuable advice and thank you for getting into the details there.

这是非常有价值的建议，感谢您了解其中的详细信息。

I'd love to transition in to talk about investing a little bit before we get to our exciting lightning round.

在我们开始激动人心的闪电轮融资之前，我很乐意谈谈投资问题。

And so you spent a lot of your time angel investing, investing in a bunch of different ways.

所以你花了很多时间进行天使投资，以多种不同的方式进行投资。

What's been your trajectory from just starting to angel invest early on to the scale you're at now?

Gokul Rajaram: I started angel investing in 2007, 15 years ago.

Gokul Rajaram：我于 2007 年开始天使投资，距今已有 15 年了。

And like many people, I started because my friends and colleagues were leaving to start companies.

和许多人一样，我开始创业是因为我的朋友和同事要离开去创办公司。

This is when I was at Google and they were leaving to start companies.

So I literally, without going much, I just wanted to support them because I'd worked with them.

And so I just put a small check into their companies and some failed, some did really well.

所以我只是对他们的公司投入了一小笔资金，有些公司失败了，有些则做得非常好。

But ultimately I realized that for me, investing is all about supporting people much more so than companies themselves.

The company itself, it's about the entrepreneur and the person.

So till today, I think I have enjoyed the most and I've really come to believe in myself that I am a founder centric.

I believe in the founder much more than I do the market.

I think there are market centric investors.

我认为存在以市场为中心的投资者。

is amazing and they are very much believe in a big market.

Gokul Rajaram: I strongly believe that great founders, and Airbnb's a great example.

They create new markets themselves, or they pivot.

他们自己创造新市场，或者转向新市场。

I mean, if they realize that a certain market is not good, they'll figure out a way to move.

And I'm basically, with my check, the biggest mistakes I made early on were after a few checks I said, "Oh, I'm going to be much more selective.

I'm not just going to write checks with all my friends.

I'm going to look to see what the market they're in."

我要去看看他们所处的市场。”

Gokul Rajaram: So I basically just started making these assumptions, "Oh, well, I should not invest in this company." And turns out, almost all of them were sins of omission.

Gokul Rajaram: So I basically just started making these assumptions, "Oh, well, I should not invest in this company."事实证明，几乎所有这些都是疏忽之罪。

I much more care about sins of omission because you can only lose one X your money.

我更关心疏忽之罪，因为你只能损失 X 倍的钱。

But for me, the relationship with the person, a person I know and respect and good friends with, and I'm not investing in them, I don't want to lose that.

但对我来说，与这个人的关系，一个我认识、尊重的人以及好朋友，我不会在他们身上投资，我不想失去它。

Gokul Rajaram: And it's an optionality for me to invest in not just this company, but in every other company they start.

Because one of the most interesting patterns I see is, folks who are unsuccessful the first time around, but then use those learnings to start a company in the same or similar space and then succeed.

因为我看到的最有趣的模式之一是，人们第一次不成功，但随后利用这些经验在相同或相似的领域创办一家公司，然后取得成功。

And I'm seeing this more and more happen and I want to have, if you don't invest in their first company, even though you thought they were great because the marketers are great, they won't probably come back to you for the second company either.

我看到这种情况越来越多地发生，我希望，如果你不投资他们的第一家公司，即使你认为他们很棒，因为营销人员很棒，他们也可能不会再投资第二家公司。

Gokul Rajaram: So very, very founder centric style of investing, almost like YC, I would say.

Closer to YC than anything else because YC invest in just founders at this point, they don't care about the idea.

They just care that you're a builder and that you can pivot fast.

他们只关心你是一名建设者并且你可以快速转变。

And if you're a team of builders who can pivot fast, they will invest because they know within three weeks, if you don't have product market fit, they'll get you to pivot three times, and under that excitement, you'll find your product market fit four times.

如果你是一个能够快速转型的开发者团队，他们就会投资，因为他们知道在三周内，如果你没有产品市场契合度，他们会让你进行三次转型，在这种兴奋之下，你会发现你的产品市场契合度四次。

I see this again and again.

我一次又一次地看到这一点。

Lenny: I love that advice and it's the way I think about it too.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议，这也是我思考问题的方式。

The only downside is if you have worked at an awesome company or two or three, it becomes a very expensive hobby because you end up knowing a lot of awesome people that are doing great things.

唯一的缺点是，如果你曾在一两个或三个很棒的公司工作过，那么它就会成为一种非常昂贵的爱好，因为你最终会认识很多正在做伟大事情的很棒的人。

So you have to be a little bit careful.

所以你必须要小心一些。

Gokul Rajaram: You've got to really make sure what the motivation.

Gokul Rajaram：你必须真正确定动机是什么。

That's what I really want to understand.

这就是我真正想了解的。

You don't want folks, there are awesome people, but I do want to make sure they're doing it for the right reason.

你不需要人，有很棒的人，但我确实想确保他们这样做是出于正确的理由。

In other words, they're doing it to solve a problem that they've experienced themselves, or seen.

换句话说，他们这样做是为了解决他们自己经历过或看到的问题。

So I really try to get into why they're starting the company and I want to make sure the reason for starting the company is authentic, in that it's a problem that they have observed deeply.

所以我真的试图了解他们为什么要创办公司，我想确保创办公司的原因是真实的，因为这是他们深入观察到的一个问题。

Gokul Rajaram: Versus, it's something they read about in Tech Crunch or it's a new US Web three or crypto thing or NFT thing.

Gokul Rajaram：相反，这是他们在 Tech Crunch 中读到的东西，或者是新的美国 Web 3、加密货币或 NFT 的东西。

So I think that's how I suss out.

所以我想这就是我的解决办法。

So I don't invest in people, even if they're awesome, when I feel their idea for...

所以当我感受到他们的想法时，我不会投资于人，即使他们很棒。

The reason they're starting the company is mercenary and they're doing it, because they haven't immersed themselves in the space.

他们创办公司的原因是唯利是图，他们这样做是因为他们还没有沉浸在这个领域。

Famously, I think the Collison Brothers bought a book, I think on payments, very old book or something I think...

众所周知，我认为科里森兄弟买了一本书，我认为是付款的，非常旧的书或我认为的东西......

Or paper maybe, and read it to fully understand why you want people who really immerse themselves in an industry and live and breathe it before they tackle it.

或者也许是论文，阅读它以充分理解为什么你希望人们真正沉浸在一个行业中，并在解决这个行业之前生活和呼吸它。

Lenny: Are there other things like that, that you look for?

莱尼：你还寻找其他类似的东西吗？

That are just like, "Oh wow, I really need to invest in this."

就像，“哇哦，我真的需要投资这个。”

Gokul Rajaram: The ability to hire talent before even you have...

Gokul Rajaram：甚至在你拥有人才之前就能够聘用人才......

Or ability that, if you can show me that you have this set of amazing people lined up to join you or that you have commitments, or even your founders.

或者能力，如果你能向我展示你有一群了不起的人排队加入你，或者你有承诺，甚至是你的创始人。

I mean, the other thing I look for is definitely two person founding team.

我的意思是，我寻找的另一件事肯定是两人创始团队。

At least two is the ideal.

至少有两个是理想的。

I've seen solo founders I'm very nervous about because I think no one person has all the skills you need to start a company.

我见过一些让我感到非常紧张的独立创始人，因为我认为没有人具备创办公司所需的所有技能。

And it's also a lot of things to do.

而且还有很多事情要做。

Gokul Rajaram: So I do like to see a really good mix of basically a builder and a seller or a hustler and a hacker, whatever you call them.

Gokul Rajaram：所以我确实喜欢看到一个真正好的组合，基本上是一个建筑商和一个卖家，或者一个骗子和一个黑客，无论你怎么称呼他们。

And I think that two person, I really feel comfortable, however good the one person is, I just feel it's...

而且我觉得两个人，真的很舒服，一个人再好，我也只是觉得……

There are obviously one person founding teams that have worked well, but I think the two or three person founding teams, I feel much.

显然有一个人的创始团队运作得很好，但我认为两三个人的创始团队，我感触良多。

Two is the ideal number.

二是理想的数字。

So I look for the two person founding team, complementary skills.

所以我寻找两个人的创始团队，技能互补。

Lenny: These are really, really handy rules of thumb that everybody could use.

How do you find time to do this?

你如何找到时间来做这件事？

So you have a full time job, I imagine it's extremely demanding, and then you're also doing a lot of investing for folks that are thinking about doing this on the side.

所以你有一份全职工作，我想它的要求非常高，然后你还为那些考虑兼职的人做大量投资。

How do you time box this and keep it sustainable and not just to go crazy and burn yourself out?

你如何安排时间并保持它的可持续性，而不是仅仅让自己发疯并精疲力竭？

Gokul Rajaram: Time boxing.

Gokul Rajaram：时间拳击。

Exactly what you said, Lenny, it's time boxing.

正如你所说，莱尼，现在是拳击时间。

Most of the time ironically is spent on DoorDash and...

讽刺的是，大部分时间都花在 DoorDash 上......

Not ironically.

并不讽刺。

Logically is spent on DoorDash even though it may not appear it.

逻辑上是花在 DoorDash 上，尽管它可能不会出现。

So I spend on DoorDash and what I do is a small percent of my time, I basically...

I keep looking at my calendar to see, am I spending more than I've worked, say 10 hours a day?

我不断地查看我的日历，看看我的花费是否超过了我的工作时间，比如每天 10 个小时？

Am I spending more than two to three hours, maximum three, ideally two hours a day on things that are needed to do my work?

我每天是否花费超过两到三个小时，最多三个，最好是两个小时来完成工作所需的事情？

Gokul Rajaram: And three hours actually is a lot.

Gokul Rajaram：三个小时实际上已经很多了。

If you think about half an hour meetings with people, that's six meetings you can do a day, out of 10.

如果您考虑与人进行半小时的会议，那么您一天可以进行六次会议，共十次。

And I also do two hours each on both Saturday and Sunday so that I can do four meetings each.

So if you think about it, six times five is 30, or four times five is 20, plus another four, plus 4...

所以如果你想一想，六乘五是 30，四乘五是 20，再加上四，再加上 4...

28 meetings, that's a lot of meetings you can do with people, et cetera, et cetera.

Yeah, so I think it's really time boxing and knowing...

I think it is knowing what matters.

我认为重要的是知道什么。

Because if you find yourself doing the opposite, where 70% of time is investing, then you should actually become a full-time investor.

因为如果你发现自己在做相反的事情，即 70% 的时间都在投资，那么你实际上应该成为一名全职投资者。

Lenny: That's amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I don't know how you keep your brain capacity focused on so many things.

Meeting with that many founders, even outside the time, is a lot of mental load.

Gokul Rajaram: I enjoy it.

Gokul Rajaram：我喜欢它。

I think the thing is, I enjoy it because I have been a founder myself, not a very successful one.

So one of the things I love hearing, I always start with, "Tell me your founding story." And every founder likes to tell the founding story.

And that's where I listen closely for authenticity, to understand how they met each other, the two founders or multiple founders, how they knew each other, and how they came up with this idea that they're going after.

这就是我仔细倾听真实性的地方，了解他们是如何认识彼此的，两位创始人或多个创始人，他们是如何认识彼此的，以及他们是如何想出他们所追求的这个想法的。

Versus what problem they're tackling.

与他们正在解决的问题相比。

Gokul Rajaram: I have a standard set of questions I ask so that way I can spend my time not thinking of questions to ask but just listening and just learning.

Gokul Rajaram：我提出了一套标准的问题，这样我就可以把时间花在不考虑要问的问题上，而只是倾听和学习。

And then I also have a good ability to forget instantly.

I take notes and then I just forget and go into the next meeting.

So compartmentalizing well.

所以划分得很好。

Lenny: Have you thought about publishing these questions that you ask?

莱尼：你有没有想过公布你提出的这些问题？

Or do you think that would hurt your chats?

或者您认为这会损害您的聊天？

Gokul Rajaram: No, I think it seems...

Gokul Rajaram：不，我认为这似乎......

Yeah, it seems too formulaic then.

是的，这样看来太公式化了。

I think there's questions that then change based on what the answer.

我认为有些问题会根据答案而改变。

So it's not exactly a set of questions, but it always starts with, "Tell me about your founding story of the company." I introduce myself and then asked them for their founding story.

因此，这并不完全是一组问题，但它总是以“告诉我你公司的创立故事”开头。我介绍了自己，然后向他们询问了他们的创业故事。

They're all nervous, pitching, et cetera when they pitch someone who could be an investor.

当他们向可能成为投资者的人推销时，他们都很紧张，推销等等。

We ask them to tell stories.

我们请他们讲故事。

It's the same for customer interviews, right?

客户访谈也是如此，对吗？

You never ask customers, "Tell me your top three problems."

你永远不会问顾客：“告诉我你最关心的三个问题。”

Gokul Rajaram: No one knows what they are.

Gokul Rajaram：没有人知道它们是什么。

But, "Tell me the last time you used a food delivery service.

但是，“告诉我你上次使用送餐服务是什么时候。

Tell me the last time you used a payment service.

告诉我您上次使用支付服务是什么时候。

How was it?

怎么样？

Tell me the last time you took a payment, credit card payment.

告诉我您上次付款是什么时候，信用卡付款。

Tell me about your last customer." People love telling stories about themselves.

告诉我关于你最后一位顾客的事。”人们喜欢讲述自己的故事。

Everyone likes talking about how they did something.

每个人都喜欢谈论他们是如何做某事的。

Lenny: For somebody that's thinking about getting into angel investing, other than having capital and finding capital, what advice would you give folks?

Lenny：对于那些正在考虑进入天使投资的人，除了拥有资本和寻找资本之外，您还会给人们什么建议？

Gokul Rajaram: See, the number one thing you need is, I think, besides...

Gokul Rajaram：看，我认为你需要的第一件事是，除了......

Number one thing is capital.

第一件事是资本。

Number zero thing.

零号的事。

Number one thing is then you need to have deal flow, as they call it, or companies that you're meeting with and deciding.

第一件事是你需要有交易流程，正如他们所说的那样，或者你正在会面并做出决定的公司。

And then you need to know how to pick these companies.

然后你需要知道如何选择这些公司。

So you need to meet companies, you need to know how pick them.

所以你需要会见一些公司，你需要知道如何选择它们。

As an angel is generally easy.

作为天使一般都很容易。

So I think you need to figure out how to get deal flow.

所以我认为你需要弄清楚如何获得交易流。

And there are three ways to get deal flow to companies.

可以通过三种方式让交易流向公司。

One, you build your own brand.

第一，你建立自己的品牌。

You can be like Lenny, who's built an incredible brand, or none of us can be like Lenny, but you can try to, we can all publish.

你可以像莱尼一样，他建立了一个令人难以置信的品牌，或者我们没有人可以像莱尼一样，但你可以尝试，我们都可以发布。

The reality is, I used to tell every single person, "You can build your brand on the internet.

现实是，我曾经告诉每个人，“你可以在互联网上建立你的品牌。

You can build your brand, social media channels."

你可以建立你的品牌、社交媒体渠道。”

Gokul Rajaram: There's so many channels.

Gokul Rajaram：有很多频道。

And you have the person here who can teach the masterclass in that.

这里有人可以教授这方面的大师班。

You can build your brand.

您可以打造自己的品牌。

And just by doing that, you'll get people coming to you.

只要这样做，就会有人来找你。

Second, you have a lot of...

其次，你有很多...

Anyone in technology has other people they know who are angel investors.

任何从事科技行业的人都认识一些天使投资人。

So it's just tell them, "Hey, I'd love to help companies.

所以只需告诉他们，“嘿，我很乐意帮助公司。

If they're investing in a company, please let we know." And the more people you tell, the more likely it is, they'll remember you.

如果他们正在投资一家公司，请告诉我们。”你告诉的人越多，他们就越有可能记住你。

And every time you meet them, reinforce that.

每次你遇到他们时，都要强化这一点。

And third, investors.

第三，投资者。

If you do know venture capitals or investors, many of them are looking to bring on...

如果您确实认识风险投资或投资者，他们中的许多人都希望带来......

There's typically a round when they lead companies around, there's typically an allocation for angels.

当他们领导公司时，通常会有一轮融资，通常会有天使投资的分配。

But for all of those, the first and most important thing is you need to understand, how are you going to add value to these companies?

但对于所有这些，首先也是最重要的事情是您需要了解，您将如何为这些公司增加价值？

Gokul Rajaram: What is your differentiation?

Gokul Rajaram：你们的与众不同之处是什么？

What do you stand for?

你代表什么？

Why should a company take your money?

公司为什么要拿你的钱？

The best companies have much more than...

最好的公司拥有的不仅仅是……

As Lenny and I both know, their rounds are over subscribed.

正如莱尼和我都知道的那样，他们的融资轮已超额认购。

It is hard enough to get even $1 into their round, let alone a hundred thousand dollars or $5,000.

即使是 1 美元都很难进入他们的回合，更不用说 10 万美元或 5,000 美元了。

So why would they take your money?

那么他们为什么要拿你的钱呢？

And so that's the thing, you have to really figure out.

这就是问题所在，你必须真正弄清楚。

What is your unique differentiation?

您的独特之处是什么？

What do you bring to these companies that no one else can?

你给这些公司带来了什么别人无法带来的东西？

And I know that's hard, that's painful to figure out, but that is the introspection each of us needs to do.

我知道这很难，很难弄清楚，但这是我们每个人都需要进行的内省。

Gokul Rajaram: The way you do that is by just sharing your non-obvious insights.

Gokul Rajaram：你这样做的方式就是分享你不明显的见解。

And don't just like...

而且不只是喜欢...

Basically just write.

基本上就写吧。

That's why I think writing is so powerful because it shows the world.

这就是为什么我认为写作如此强大，因为它展示了世界。

My rule of thumb is when they do a search for you on Google, if your LinkedIn profile is the first thing that comes up, you've probably done something wrong.

我的经验法则是，当他们在 Google 上搜索您时，如果首先出现的是您的 LinkedIn 个人资料，那么您可能做错了什么。

Gokul Rajaram: What should come up is an article you wrote.

Gokul Rajaram：应该出现的是您写的一篇文章。

Is a tweet you published.

是您发布的推文。

Is someone mentioning you on something else, et cetera.

是否有人在其他事情上提及您，等等。

Because that's when, clicking on it, they know what you stand for by that content about you, by you, et cetera.

因为那时，点击它，他们就会通过有关您的内容、您自己的内容等了解您的立场。

Yes, Mike Morritz can get away with LinkedIn because no one needs to know what he has done.

是的，迈克·莫里茨（Mike Morritz）可以通过 LinkedIn 逃脱惩罚，因为没有人需要知道他做了什么。

But for the rest of us, we need to build our brand, what we stand for.

但对于我们其他人来说，我们需要建立我们的品牌，我们所代表的东西。

And it'll change over time.

而且它会随着时间的推移而改变。

I used to basically believe I should just think about product development, how to lead product teams, engineering teams.

我曾经基本上认为我应该只考虑产品开发，如何领导产品团队、工程团队。

For over the last five years, since I've led broader teams, I now share stuff which is much broader than that.

在过去的五年里，自从我领导了更广泛的团队以来，我现在分享的东西比这更广泛。

And so what I stand for and what value I add has changed and evolved and hopefully increased over time.

因此，我所代表的以及我所添加的价值已经发生了变化和演变，并希望随着时间的推移而增加。

The same will happen.

同样的情况也会发生。

But you've got to take ownership of your brand on the internet.

但你必须在互联网上拥有你的品牌所有权。

Gokul Rajaram: No one else can.

Gokul Rajaram：没有人可以。

No one else can.

其他人都做不到。

It's not your company.

这不是你的公司。

You've got to transcend the companies you work for.

你必须超越你所工作的公司。

If your identity is X, Y, Z, worker drone at A, B, C company, that's not enough.

如果你的身份是X、Y、Z，A、B、C公司的工人无人机，那还不够。

You've got to be X, Y, Z expert in A.

您必须是 A 领域的 X、Y、Z 专家。

Or whatever that A is, even if it's a niche thing, that's okay.

或者无论 A 是什么，即使它是一个小众的东西，那也没关系。

Every company leads...

每个公司都领先...

So many companies come to me, "I want a payments expert." And then I'll find someone who's a payments expert for them because they're trying to build a fintech practice or something.

很多公司来找我，“我想要一名支付专家。”然后我会找到一个适合他们的支付专家，因为他们正在尝试建立金融科技实践或其他东西。

So be an expert in payments, if that's what you know.

因此，如果您知道的话，请成为支付方面的专家。

Write about non obvious insights on payments.

写一些关于支付的不明显的见解。

Doesn't need to be a functional discipline like, Lenny and I are doing product or something.

不需要像莱尼和我正在做产品之类的职能学科。

Can be a domain.

可以是一个域。

Risk, payments, crypto.

风险、支付、加密货币。

Think about crypto, right?

想想加密货币吧？

The people who got into crypto, and I just read a post by this guy, Richard Chen, he graduated from Stanford.

那些进入加密货币领域的人，我刚刚读了理查德·陈（Richard Chen）的帖子，他毕业于斯坦福大学。

Gokul Rajaram: I don't know him, but I read incredible post.

Gokul Rajaram：我不认识他，但我读了一篇令人难以置信的帖子。

He runs this firm fund called One Confirmation, which is a top fund.

他经营着一支名为OneConfirmation的公司基金，这是一只顶级基金。

He graduated from undergrad four years ago.

他四年前本科毕业。

That's all he did.

这就是他所做的一切。

I mean, he was head of Stanford Blockchain.

我的意思是，他是斯坦福区块链的负责人。

He wrote, he writes amazing stuff.

他写了，他写了很棒的东西。

He's built a brand for himself.

他为自己打造了一个品牌。

Kudos to him.

向他致敬。

25 years old, probably.

大概25岁吧

Gokul Rajaram: Never met the guy, but I was like, this guy knows what he's doing.

Gokul Rajaram：我从未见过这个人，但我当时想，这个人知道他在做什么。

Watch his LinkedIn.

观看他的 LinkedIn。

Oh my God, he's never worked at a company.

天哪，他从来没有在公司工作过。

He's basically been out of school for four years, but he has incredible insights.

他基本上已经离开学校四年了，但他有着令人难以置信的洞察力。

Lenny: Wait till he hears this podcast.

莱尼：等他听到这个播客。

He's like, "Holy shit, they're talking about me."

他就像是，“天哪，他们在谈论我。”

Lenny: I hope he's a listener and if not, we got to find him.

莱尼：我希望他是一个倾听者，如果不是，我们就必须找到他。

Okay, we are now at the lightning round.

好的，我们现在进入闪电回合。

And so what I'm going to do, I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions real quick.

所以我要做的就是快速问你们一系列问题。

Whatever comes to mind, let me know.

无论想到什么，请告诉我。

If nothing comes to mind, that's also cool.

如果什么也没想到，那也很酷。

And then we will wrap up.

然后我们就结束了。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

What's a book that you've recommended most to other product leaders?

您向其他产品负责人推荐最多的一本书是什么？

Gokul Rajaram: Playing to Win: How Strategy Really Works.

Gokul Rajaram：为赢而战：战略如何真正发挥作用。

It's a book called Playing to Win and the subtitle is How Strategy Really Works.

这是一本名为“为赢而战”的书，副标题是“战略如何真正发挥作用”。

Very good book.

非常好的书。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I have not read that.

我还没读过。

I will check that out.

我会检查一下。

What's a company that you recommend to people that are looking for new gigs?

您向正在寻找新工作的人推荐哪家公司？

Maybe product managers, maybe any other function?

也许是产品经理，也许还有其他职能？

Gokul Rajaram: DoorDash.

Gokul Rajaram：DoorDash。

Incredible operational excellence.

令人难以置信的卓越运营。

And what you learn here, I have myself learned a lot in the two years I've been here, about new ways of the attention to detail.

你在这里学到的东西，我自己在这两年里学到了很多关于关注细节的新方法。

Operational excellence, unparalleled.

卓越运营，无与伦比。

Lenny: I usually include, you can't mention the company you're working at now.

莱尼：我通常会说，你不能提及你现在工作的公司。

Is there another company by any chance?

还有其他公司吗？

And if not, you can have that.

如果没有，你也可以拥有。

Gokul Rajaram: I would say Coinbase, if you're interested in crypto.

Gokul Rajaram：如果你对加密货币感兴趣，我会说 Coinbase。

I am technically a board member.

从技术上讲，我是董事会成员。

I truly believe.

我真的相信。

I think if you are interested in crypto, Coinbase has such a diverse set of things that they work on that it is literally, you can work on almost any part of crypto, from NFTs to wallets to custody to infrastructure.

我认为，如果你对加密货币感兴趣，Coinbase 拥有如此多样化的产品，从字面上看，你可以研究加密货币的几乎任何部分，从 NFT 到钱包，从托管到基础设施。

They have a company they called Bison Trails, which does infrastructure.

他们有一家名为 Bison Trails 的公司，从事基础设施建设。

So you can truly, it's like Google, worked on everything.

所以你真的可以像谷歌一样，解决一切问题。

You could work in YouTube, you can work in search.

你可以在 YouTube 工作，也可以在搜索领域工作。

Coinbase, I think the same thing.

Coinbase，我也这么认为。

You can work in 10 different products and within two years or three years, learn the complete spectrum, crypto ecosystem.

您可以使用 10 种不同的产品，并在两年或三年内学习完整的频谱、加密生态系统。

Lenny: Also an Airbnb alumni founder.

Lenny：也是 Airbnb 校友创始人。

Lenny: What's your favorite app right now?

Lenny：你现在最喜欢的应用程序是什么？

Gokul Rajaram: Over the last few weeks it has been Coinbase wallet.

Gokul Rajaram：过去几周一直是 Coinbase 钱包。

I've been playing around.

我一直在玩。

I just was a hoarder.

我只是一个囤积者。

I basically just had held Bitcoin Ether for many, many years, but then over the last couple of months I just said, got to just...

我基本上已经持有比特币以太币很多很多年了，但在过去的几个月里，我刚刚说过，必须......

In the Coinbase board meetings, you listen to all of these things.

在 Coinbase 董事会会议上，你会听到所有这些事情。

I'm like...

我就像...

Got to now diverse and beyond and actually got to start staking stuff, going on distributed exchanges, or decentralized exchanges and just basically playing around with Coinbase wallet because earlier I wasn't using wallet.

现在已经变得更加多元化，实际上开始进行质押，进行分布式交易所或去中心化交易所，基本上只是玩弄 Coinbase 钱包，因为之前我没有使用钱包。

I was just using Coinbase dot com where you can't do any of this stuff.

我只是使用 Coinbase dot com，你不能做任何这些事情。

And then DoorDash is the other one.

DoorDash 是另一个。

I think I truly use it to order food every day.

我想我真的每天都用它来订餐。

But Coinbase wallet is one I'm using a lot now.

但 Coinbase 钱包是我现在经常使用的钱包。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I got to check that out.

我必须检查一下。

I just got access to the Coinbase NFT stuff, and so yes, it'll pull me into the Coinbase ecosystem.

我刚刚接触到了 Coinbase NFT 的东西，所以是的，它会把我带入 Coinbase 生态系统。

Okay, a couple more questions.

好的，还有几个问题。

Who is a favorite person to follow on Twitter or Instagram?

谁是 Twitter 或 Instagram 上最喜欢关注的人？

Especially these days?

尤其是这几天？

Lenny: Easy choice.

莱尼：简单的选择。

All right.

好的。

Who's a favorite manager that you've had over the years?

多年来您最喜欢的经理是谁？

Gokul Rajaram: All of them.

戈库尔·拉贾拉姆：全部。

I've learned different things through them.

我通过他们学到了不同的东西。

So no easy choice there.

所以没有简单的选择。

Lenny: No favorites.

莱尼：没有最喜欢的。

All right.

好的。

Taking the easy way out.

采取简单的出路。

And then what's a favorite interview question that you like to ask in interviews?

那么您在面试中最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？

Not with founders, but with hiring.

不是与创始人，而是与招聘。

Gokul Rajaram: What are you most proud of?

Gokul Rajaram：你最自豪的是什么？

The interview question is a good one.

面试问题是个好问题。

Tell me about something that you're most proud of.

告诉我一件你最自豪的事。

What is the accomplishment, career accomplishment you're most proud of?

您最引以为傲的成就或职业成就是什么？

Because it tells you how they measure their impact.

因为它告诉您他们如何衡量其影响。

Tells you a lot about what they care about, how they measure their impact.

告诉您很多关于他们关心什么以及他们如何衡量其影响的信息。

If they say, "As a PM I launched X, Y, Z feature," they're talking about the impact and the kind they value it.

如果他们说，“作为产品经理，我推出了 X、Y、Z 功能”，那么他们谈论的是影响以及他们重视的影响类型。

Something about that.

与此有关的一些事情。

Or if they talk too much about them versus the team, et cetera.

或者如果他们过多地谈论自己与团队的关系，等等。

So you get a lot from that question.

所以你从这个问题中得到了很多。

It's a loaded question.

这是一个有内涵的问题。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I love that question.

我喜欢这个问题。

Okay.

好的。

Where can folks find you online and how can people listening be helpful to you?

人们可以在网上哪里找到您以及倾听的人如何对您有帮助？

Gokul Rajaram: I am on Twitter, G-O-K-U-L-R at GokulR on Twitter.

Gokul Rajaram：我在 Twitter 上，G-O-K-U-L-R 在 Twitter 上的 GokulR。

And I always say the best way to help me, just help the broader ecosystem.

我总是说帮助我的最好方法就是帮助更广泛的生态系统。

Pay it forward, and if you pay it forward, at some point, whoever you paid forward helps me at some point.

把它转发出去，如果你把它转发出去，在某个时候，无论你转发给谁，都会在某个时候帮助我。

But if all of us paid it forward, the world would be a better place.

但如果我们所有人都付出代价，世界将会变得更加美好。

Pay it forward.

向前支付。

And then, like I said at the very beginning, believe in the power of serendipity, and I need to listen to Lenny's TED talk on that.

然后，就像我一开始所说的那样，相信机缘巧合的力量，我需要听听 Lenny 的 TED 演讲。

Gokul Rajaram: Serendipity, paying it forward.

Gokul Rajaram：机缘巧合，将其传递下去。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

What a great way to wrap it up.

这是一个多么好的总结方式啊。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Gokul.

戈库尔。

Gokul Rajaram: Thank you, Lenny.

戈库尔·拉贾拉姆：谢谢你，莱尼。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Lenny: That was awesome.

莱尼：那太棒了。

Thank you for listening.

感谢您的聆听。

If you enjoyed the chat, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast.

如果您喜欢聊天，请不要忘记订阅播客。

You could also learn more at Lenny's podcast dot com.

您还可以在 Lenny 的播客网站上了解更多信息。

I'll see you in the next episode.

我们下一集见。

中文为机器翻译，仅供参考。