Scaling Duolingo, embracing failure, and insight into Latin America’s tech scene | Gina Gotthilf

Communication is constantly underrated.: And communication isn't about being able to convey a message, it's about being able to convey a message in a way that the listener receives it, and understands it, and remembers it.

沟通总是被低估。：沟通并不是能够传达信息，而是能够以听者接收、理解和记住的方式传达信息。

And that's really hard to do.

而这真的很难做到。

Communication is constantly underrated.: One of the things I've helped employ at Duolingo that I think is still there today, it's definitely not just me, it was an amazing team, is a unique voice.

沟通总是被低估。：我在 Duolingo 帮助使用的东西之一，我认为今天仍然存在，这绝对不仅仅是我，这是一个了不起的团队，是一个独特的声音。

And what that means is not just another language learning app where we give you instructions and you follow directions.

这意味着不仅仅是另一个语言学习应用程序，我们向您提供说明，您按照指示进行操作。

Communication is constantly underrated.: There is always a quirk, like it's unexpected.

沟通总是被低估。：总是有一个怪癖，就像是意想不到的。

The way we talk to you is a little bit funny.

我们和你说话的方式有点有趣。

It doesn't take ourselves too, seriously and it makes the person receiving this message feel something.

它不会太认真地对待我们自己，它会让收到此消息的人有所感受。

Again, it's about how you make people feel.

再说一遍，这取决于你如何让人们感受到。

And you feel like either you giggle, or you're like, wait what?

你觉得要么咯咯笑，要么你想，等等什么？

They just did what?

他们刚刚做了什么？

And using that to your benefit.

并利用它来为您带来好处。

Lenny: Today my guest is Gina Gotthilf.

莱尼：今天我的客人是吉娜·戈蒂尔夫。

Gina is most known for leading growth and marketing at Duolingo, helping take them from 3 million to over 200 million users, primarily through organic and non-paid growth channels, which we explore in depth.

吉娜 (Gina) 因领导 Duolingo 的增长和营销而闻名，主要通过我们深入探索的有机和非付费增长渠道，帮助他们将用户数量从 300 万增加到 2 亿多。

Lenny: She also worked on the Mike Bloomberg presidential campaign, where she oversaw a historic digital ad budget, and she shares learnings from that experience.

莱尼：她还参与了迈克·布隆伯格的总统竞选活动，监督了历史性的数字广告预算，并分享了从这次经历中学到的经验教训。

She also led growth in community for Tumblr in Latin America.

她还领导了拉丁美洲 Tumblr 社区的发展。

Lenny: Currently, she's the co-founder and COO of Latitude, which is a company dedicated to helping build the next generation of iconic tech startups in Latin America.

Lenny：目前，她是 Latitude 的联合创始人兼首席运营官，该公司致力于帮助拉丁美洲建立下一代标志性科技初创公司。

In our wide-ranging conversation, Gina shares a ton of new insights and tactics on how Duolingo grew early on, how they grow today, and most interestingly, what they did to become one of the very rare successful consumer subscription businesses.

在我们内容广泛的对话中，吉娜分享了大量新的见解和策略，涉及 Duolingo 早期如何发展、今天如何发展，以及最有趣的是，他们如何成为非常罕见的成功消费者订阅企业之一。

Lenny: We also talk about how every life and career has an A-side and A B-side.

Lenny：我们还讨论了每个生活和职业都有 A 面和 B 面。

Also, why PR and brand are way underappreciated by most startups.

此外，为什么大多数初创公司都低估了公关和品牌。

She shares a bunch of stories of failed experiments, and also some of her biggest wins.

她分享了一系列失败实验的故事，以及她的一些最大的胜利。

Also, why Latin America is so interesting right now as a hub for startups and for innovation.

此外，为什么拉丁美洲现在作为初创企业和创新中心如此有趣。

Also, there's a bit of philosophy sprinkled in, and a bunch of real talk.

此外，其中还夹杂着一些哲学思想，以及一些真实的谈话。

Lenny: This was such a fun conversation.

莱尼：这是一次非常有趣的谈话。

Gina is delightful.

吉娜很令人愉快。

I am excited for you to learn from her.

我很高兴你能向她学习。

With that, I bring you Gina God Gotthilf, after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了吉娜·戈蒂尔夫 (Gina God Gotthilf)。

Lenny: You fell in love with building products for a reason, but sometimes the day-to-Day reality is a little different than you imagined.

Lenny：您爱上构建产品是有原因的，但有时日常现实与您想象的有点不同。

Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers and crafting a strategy, you're drowning in spreadsheets and roadmap updates, and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.

您没有梦想出伟大的想法，与客户交谈并制定策略，而是淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，并且您的时间基本上都花在救火上。

Lenny: A better way is possible.

莱尼：可能有更好的方法。

Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and road-mapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.

隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的全新优先级划分和路线图工具。

Lenny: With Jira product Discovery, you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place, and prioritize confidently, finally replacing those endless spreadsheets.

Lenny：通过 Jira 产品发现，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一个地方，并自信地确定优先顺序，最终取代那些无休无止的电子表格。

Create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds.

在几秒钟内创建并与任何利益相关者共享自定义产品路线图。

And it's all built on Jira, where your engineering team's already working, so true collaboration is finally possible.

这一切都建立在 Jira 上，您的工程团队已经在 J​​ira 上工作，因此真正的协作终于成为可能。

Lenny: Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers.

Lenny：伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，而不仅仅是工程师。

Sales, support, leadership, even Greg from finance, anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free.

销售、支持、领导，甚至财务部门的 Greg，任何您想要的人都可以在 Jira Product Discovery 中免费贡献想法、反馈和见解。

No catch.

没有捕获。

And it's only $10 a month for you.

而且每月只需 10 美元。

Lenny: Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never-ending alignment efforts.

Lenny：告别电子表格和永无休止的对齐工作。

The old way of doing product management is over.

旧的产品管理方式已经结束。

Rediscover what's possible with Jira Product Discovery.

重新发现 Jira Product Discovery 的可能性。

Try it for free at atlassian.com/lenny.

请访问 atlassian.com/lenny 免费试用。

That's atlassian.com/lenny.

这是 atlassian.com/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Hex.

莱尼：这一集是由 Hex 为您带来的。

If you're a data person, you probably have to jump between different tools to run queries, build visualizations, write Python, and send around a lot of screenshots and CSV files.

如果您是一名数据人员，您可能必须在不同的工具之间切换来运行查询、构建可视化、编写 Python 以及发送大量屏幕截图和 CSV 文件。

Lenny: Hex brings everything together.

Lenny：Hex 将一切结合在一起。

Its powerful Notebook UI lets you analyze data in SQL, Python, or no-code in any combination and work together with live multiplayer and version control.

其强大的 Notebook UI 可让您以 SQL、Python 或任何组合的无代码方式分析数据，并与实时多人游戏和版本控制一起使用。

Lenny: And now Hex's AI tools can generate queries and code, create visualizations, and even kickstart a whole analysis for you, all from natural language prompts.

Lenny：现在 Hex 的 AI 工具可以生成查询和代码、创建可视化，甚至为您启动整个分析，所有这些都来自自然语言提示。

It's like having an analytics copilot built right into where you're already doing your work.

这就像在您已经完成工作的地方内置了一个分析副驾驶。

Lenny: Then, when you're ready to share, you can use he's drag and drop app builder to configure beautiful reports or dashboards that anyone can use.

Lenny：然后，当您准备好共享时，您可以使用他的拖放应用程序构建器来配置任何人都可以使用的精美报告或仪表板。

Join the hundreds of data teams like Notion, All Trails, Loom, Mixpanel, and Algolia using Hex every day to make their work more impactful.

加入数百个数据团队，如 Notion、All Trails、Loom、Mixpanel 和 Algolia，每天使用 Hex，让他们的工作更具影响力。

Sign up today at hex.tech/lenny to get a 60-day free trial of the Hex team plan.

立即在 hex.tech/lenny 注册即可获得 Hex 团队计划的 60 天免费试用期。

That's hex.tech/ lenny.

那是 hex.tech/lenny。

Lenny: Gina, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：吉娜，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Gina Gotthilf: Lenny, I'm so excited to be here.

Gina Gotthilf：Lenny，我很高兴来到这里。

It's been awesome to see how you've built this, and just how far it's gone.

看到你如何构建这个以及它已经走了多远真是太棒了。

Thank you for inviting me.

谢谢你邀请我。

Lenny: Really appreciate that.

莱尼：真的很感激。

I'm more excited to have you on the podcast.

我更高兴你能加入播客。

And I know you just came off hosting a massive event somewhere in Latin America, I think you had 5,000-something people.

我知道你们刚刚在拉丁美洲某个地方举办了一场大型活动，我想你们有 5,000 多人。

You had Ben Horowitz keynoting.

本·霍洛维茨 (Ben Horowitz) 做了主题演讲。

Lenny: And I wanted to start with the talk you gave.

莱尼：我想从你的演讲开始。

I think you described it as people having this A-side and B-side to their life, kind of like a record as an A-side and B-side.

我想你把它描述为人们的生活有 A 面和 B 面，有点像一张有 A 面和 B 面的唱片。

So could you just share what it was this conference?

那么您能分享一下这次会议的内容吗？

And then two, kind of just briefly share this concept as much as you can

然后两点，尽可能简单地分享这个概念

For sure, and thanks for that Lenny.: Look, I think for those of us here in the US, I became an American last year.

当然，感谢莱尼：看，我认为对于我们这些在美国的人来说，我去年成为了美国人。

I love the US.

我爱美国。

I've been here for 19 years.

我在这里已经 19 年了。

It's hard to imagine just how much is going on south of the border.

很难想象边境以南到底发生了多少事情。

There's actually 660 million people living across Latin America, and it's an economy of $6 trillion.

实际上，拉丁美洲有 6.6 亿人口，经济规模达 6 万亿美元。

For sure, and thanks for that Lenny.: And Brazil is a huge market, just in terms of sheer size, over 200 million people.

当然，感谢莱尼：巴西是一个巨大的市场，仅就其规模而言，就拥有超过 2 亿人口。

And also in terms of where the ecosystem is.

还有生态系统的位置。

I am Brazilian, so I am Latin American, even though sometimes Brazilians are not sure if they are Latin American because we speak Portuguese.

我是巴西人，所以我是拉丁美洲人，尽管有时巴西人不确定自己是否是拉丁美洲人，因为我们说葡萄牙语。

For sure, and thanks for that Lenny.: And so the future of the region really matters to me.

当然，感谢莱尼：所以该地区的未来对我来说真的很重要。

And helping people get the opportunities that I've had, in terms of access to information and resources that could help them build scalable, very successful startups, can really change the economy across the board.

帮助人们获得我所拥有的机会，在获取信息和资源方面，可以帮助他们建立可扩展的、非常成功的初创企业，可以真正全面改变经济。

I believe in that much more than I believe in government, and whether we're going to vote this guy or that guy next.

我对这一点的信任远胜于对政府的信任，也不知道我们接下来会投票给这个人还是那个人。

For sure, and thanks for that Lenny.: And so that's sort of the impetus for the company.

当然，感谢莱尼：这就是公司的动力。

The conference was a conference put together by my company.

这次会议是我公司组织的一次会议。

I'm a co-founder.

我是联合创始人。

We're three, Brian, Yuri, and I.

我们是三个人，布莱恩、尤里和我。

We put this conference together to bring together the top entrepreneurs, operators and investors across Latin America, but also people who are interested in investing in the region, of which there are more and more here in the US and abroad.

我们举办这次会议是为了聚集拉丁美洲各地的顶尖企业家、运营商和投资者，以及有兴趣在该地区投资的人，其中越来越多的人来自美国和国外。

For sure, and thanks for that Lenny.: More than 5,000 people came.

当然，谢谢你的莱尼：有超过 5,000 人来了。

We had over 70 speakers.

我们有 70 多名发言者。

It was across two days.

时间已经过去两天了。

We had amazing people like Ben Horowitz, who never gave a talk, or did a fireside specifically for and about Latin America and the opportunity.

我们有像本·霍洛维茨（Ben Horowitz）这样出色的人，他从未发表过演讲，也没有专门针对拉丁美洲和机遇做过炉边活动。

But we also had incredible founders who you, in terms of US operators, may not be as familiar with.

但我们也有令人难以置信的创始人，就美国运营商而言，您可能不太熟悉他们。

For sure, and thanks for that Lenny.: But if you've ever heard of Rappi, it's a really important delivery company in Latin America.

当然可以，谢谢 Lenny：但是如果您听说过 Rappi，它是拉丁美洲一家非常重要的快递公司。

So the founder of Rappi flew down from Miami for that.

为此，Rappi 的创始人从迈阿密飞来。

And then we had VCs from a lot of the top names that you've heard here in the region as well.

然后我们还获得了来自该地区许多知名人士的风险投资。

And then a lot of unicorns.

然后还有很多独角兽。

We've had a lot of unicorns in the region.

我们该地区有很多独角兽。

For sure, and thanks for that Lenny.: So they were all there.

当然，谢谢你的莱尼：所以他们都在那里。

And the idea was to share learnings along the way, successes and failures, so that people can skip by not making the same mistakes as others.

我们的想法是分享一路上的经验教训、成功和失败，这样人们就可以避免犯与其他人相同的错误。

And I was asked to open both days.

我被要求这两天都开放。

And then the first day, the opening talk that I ended up giving was this concept that I really like, which is the A-side and the B-side of a story.

然后第一天，我最终发表的开场演讲就是我非常喜欢的这个概念，即故事的 A 面和 B 面。

Which is that if you are old like me, and maybe you Lenny, I think we're similar age, you remember what a CD or what a mixtape was like.

也就是说，如果你像我一样老，也许你是莱尼，我想我们年龄相仿，你还记得 CD 或混音带是什么样的。

And we had the A and the B-side.

我们有 A 面和 B 面。

For sure, and thanks for that Lenny.: We are very encouraged in our lives, especially professionally, to talk about our A-sides all the time.

当然，感谢莱尼：我们在生活中，特别是在职业生涯中，经常被鼓励谈论我们的 A 面。

Because that's what impresses people, that's what opens doors, that's what allows us to keep growing and it's so important.

因为这就是给人们留下深刻印象的原因，这就是打开大门的原因，这就是让我们不断成长的原因，这非常重要。

It means that a lot of what you hear in podcasts and on stage ends up being the Instagramable version of someone, or a company, or a country's trajectory.

这意味着你在播客和舞台上听到的很多内容最终都会成为某人、一家公司或一个国家轨迹的 Instagram 版本。

It's just the highlights.

这只是亮点。

For sure, and thanks for that Lenny.: And when I talk about my A-side, it's very impressive.

当然，谢谢你的莱尼：当我谈论我的 A 面时，它令人印象深刻。

I did things like we'll talk about, I met President Obama, I worked on the Mike Bloomberg presidential campaign.

我做了我们将要讨论的事情，我会见了奥巴马总统，我为迈克·布隆伯格总统竞选工作。

I helped Duolingo scale from three to 200 million users.

我帮助 Duolingo 将用户数量从 3 亿扩大到 2 亿。

I worked with Tumblr, helping them scale in Latin America.

我与 Tumblr 合作，帮助他们在拉丁美洲扩大规模。

Andreessen Horowitz invested in my company, et cetera.

Andreessen Horowitz 投资了我的公司等等。

For sure, and thanks for that Lenny.: But between all of those highlights, there were so many B-moments that get shoved under the rug because it's just easier for me and it's more impressive for others.

当然，谢谢你的莱尼。：但在所有这些亮点之间，有很多 B 时刻被推到了地毯下，因为这对我来说更容易，对其他人来说更令人印象深刻。

But I really like to highlight those.

但我真的很喜欢强调这些。

Because I think that most of us have a lot of B-moments every day, every week, every month and every period of our lives.

因为我认为我们大多数人每天、每周、每月以及生命中的每个时期都有很多 B 时刻。

And it's easy to think that things aren't just not going to work out for us because we're in one of those B-moments, if we don't recognize them as moments.

人们很容易认为，如果我们不认识到这些时刻，事情就不会顺利进行，因为我们正处于这些 B 时刻之一。

For sure, and thanks for that Lenny.: And the story I ended up telling was how, much I have these A and B-sides that I don't talk about my B-side so much.

当然，谢谢你的莱尼：我最终讲述的故事是，我有多少 A 面和 B 面，但我不太谈论我的 B 面。

Latin America also has A and B-sides.

拉丁美洲也有A面和B面。

Because it's really easy to focus on, it's dangerous, we're behind the governments are a mess.

因为它真的很容易集中注意力，但很危险，我们背后的政府一团糟。

There's financial insecurity.

财务上存在不安全感。

For sure, and thanks for that Lenny.: But there's a lot of A side in there, and a lot of the A-side is the opportunity we have in terms of tech.

当然，感谢莱尼：但是其中有很多 A 方面，而且很多 A 方面是我们在技术方面拥有的机会。

Because in terms of percentage of GDP that tech occupies compared to other markets, it's very promising.

因为与其他市场相比，科技占 GDP 的百分比而言，它是非常有前途的。

We're at one third of India, one 10th of China, one 30th of the United States.

我们占印度的三分之一、中国的十分之一、美国的三十分之一。

Meaning that tech companies can grow a lot so that they occupy that space in terms of the GDP, which is believable.

这意味着科技公司可以大幅增长，从而在 GDP 中占据这一空间，这是可信的。

So that was the concept of the talk and the reason for this conference.

这就是这次演讲的理念和召开这次会议的原因。

Lenny: I love this concept.

莱尼：我喜欢这个概念。

We're going to talk, as you expected about a lot of your A-side stuff.

正如您所期望的那样，我们将讨论很多 A 面的内容。

Is there any example of a B-side story of your life that would be interesting to share?

您生活中是否有任何有趣的 B 面故事可以分享？

Gina Gotthilf: Look, I think those are the most interesting, because they're funny or ridiculous.

Gina Gotthilf：看，我认为这些是最有趣的，因为它们很有趣或可笑。

But I'll just say that I had a lot of B-sides and I still do.

但我只想说我有很多 B 面，而且现在仍然如此。

For example, I had no idea what I wanted to do.

例如，我不知道自己想做什么。

I actually, I thought I wanted to be an actress.

事实上，我以为我想成为一名演员。

I either wanted to be that person in SeaWorld who goes like this with a dolphin, this was before SeaWorld was canceled.

我要么想成为海洋世界里那个和海豚一起去的人，那是在海洋世界被取消之前。

Or I wanted to be an actress.

或者我想成为一名演员。

But then my parents convinced me that I was probably not going to succeed because the odds weren't in my favor.

但后来我的父母让我相信我可能不会成功，因为机会对我不利。

Gina Gotthilf: I applied to schools.

Gina Gotthilf：我申请了学校。

I didn't get into any Ivy League, I didn't get into any of the top schools I wanted to go to.

我没有进入任何常春藤盟校，也没有进入任何我想去的顶尖学校。

When I got to college, I actually ended up dropping out because I got so depressed, incredibly depressed.

当我上大学时，我实际上最终退学了，因为我非常沮丧，非常沮丧。

Couldn't get out of bed, depressed.

起不来床，郁闷极了。

Gina Gotthilf: Ironically, I dropped out of Reed College, which is the same college that Steve Jobs dropped out of.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：讽刺的是，我从里德学院退学，史蒂夫·乔布斯也是从这所大学退学的。

So I was just destined for greatness.

所以我注定要成就伟大。

I knew it at that moment.

那一刻我就知道了。

Lenny: It all makes sense looking backwards, as he said.

莱尼：正如他所说，回顾过去，一切都是有道理的。

Gina Gotthilf: Totally.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：完全可以。

I was dropping out, being like, yes, this is exactly the path.

我当时就退学了，心想，是的，这正是我要走的路。

No, I was miserable.

不，我很痛苦。

I thought there was no path forward.

我以为没有前进的路了。

Gina Gotthilf: And when I finally went back and graduated, the college counselor looked at my curriculum and said, "What have you even done with your life?

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：当我最终回去毕业时，大学辅导员看了我的课程并说：“你一生都做了什么？

There's nothing to show for." And it was shocking.

没什么可炫耀的。”这令人震惊。

Because I was always the overachiever who wanted to do the maximum curriculum, and ace all of my classes, and do whatever.

因为我一直是一个成绩优异的人，想要完成最大的课程，并在所有课程中取得好成绩，并做任何事情。

I did three diplomas in high school, the international, the American, the Brazilian.

我在高中获得了三个文凭：国际文凭、美国文凭、巴西文凭。

My one learning there that has stuck with me, and I think can work for other people too, is that it's not just about doing things that actually matter, and learning.

我在那里学到的一件事一直困扰着我，我认为对其他人也有用，那就是，这不仅仅是做真正重要的事情和学习。

It's about being able to tell the story, and it's about understanding what other people perceive as valuable.

这是关于能够讲述故事，并且是关于理解其他人认为有价值的东西。

Gina Gotthilf: I'm not talking about net value.

Gina Gotthilf：我不是在谈论净值。

But I'm talking about, if you want to grow in the world, it's understanding that psychology of how humans react to what you're showing them.

但我说的是，如果你想在这个世界上成长，那就要了解人类对你所展示的内容如何反应的心理。

So that was one lesson.

这就是一课。

Gina Gotthilf: But then I went on to, I applied to a hundred companies.

Gina Gotthilf：但后来我又申请了一百家公司。

I didn't hear back from most of them.

我没有收到他们中大多数人的回复。

I finally got an internship at kind of like a tier B-slash-C digital marketing agency in New York City, because I wanted to live in New York so badly.

我终于在纽约市一家类似 B-slash-C 级数字营销机构的实习机会，因为我非常想住在纽约。

And they forgot to apply for my visa on time, so I lost my visa and had to go back to Brazil.

他们忘记按时申请我的签证，所以我失去了签证，不得不返回巴西。

Gina Gotthilf: And then I ended up leaving that organization to go work for another one.

Gina Gotthilf：然后我最终离​​开了那个组织，去另一个组织工作。

And I won't even go into the details of the shadiness of that company that I worked for, but then they ended up laying me off.

我什至不想详细介绍我工作过的那家公司的阴暗面，但他们最终解雇了我。

So I lost my visa again, had to go back home.

于是我又失去了签证，不得不回国。

Found another opportunity, got fired that time.

找到了另一个机会，那一次被解雇了。

So there was just a lot of rockiness in my start that I don't think you would imagine when you see someone up on stage leading a conference for 5,000 people.

因此，我一开始就经历了很多坎坷，当你看到有人在台上主持 5,000 人的会议时，我想你是无法想象的。

That, I think, is important.

我认为这很重要。

Gina Gotthilf: And even when I started working for Tumblr, I was like, this is it.

Gina Gotthilf：甚至当我开始为 Tumblr 工作时，我就想，就是这样了。

I made it.

我做到了。

This is a really interesting company.

这是一家非常有趣的公司。

This is going to work out.

这会成功的。

That was super rocky because it was an early stage startup.

那是非常艰难的，因为它是一个早期阶段的初创公司。

So for example, they couldn't figure out how to wire money to Brazil.

例如，他们不知道如何将钱汇到巴西。

So I was not paid for six months.

所以我六个月没有拿到工资。

And at one point me and my colleagues were trying to get money out of the teller to pay contractors, because we had no money to pay them.

有一次，我和我的同事试图从出纳员那里拿钱来支付承包商的费用，因为我们没有钱支付他们的费用。

And we borrowed money from people.

我们还向人们借钱。

And finally they also laid me off because they decided to sell to Yahoo.

最后他们也解雇了我，因为他们决定卖给雅虎。

Gina Gotthilf: And then I had to figure out, what am I going to do?

Gina Gotthilf：然后我必须弄清楚，我要做什么？

No one's going to hire me.

没有人会雇用我。

I've been fired and laid off so many times.

我已经被解雇和下岗很多次了。

This is all before I started an agency to help US-based tech companies and startups grow in Latin America, because I figured I was in this really great place to make that happen.

这一切都是在我成立一家机构来帮助美国科技公司和初创公司在拉丁美洲发展之前发生的，因为我认为我在这个非常适合实现这一目标的地方。

Gina Gotthilf: And it eventually worked for, well-known companies such as Duolingo.

Gina Gotthilf：它最终适用于 Duolingo 等知名公司。

At the time, they weren't well known.

当时，他们并不出名。

They were a tiny little startup.

他们是一家很小的初创公司。

They didn't have an Android app.

他们没有 Android 应用程序。

And that's how I started working with Duolingo.

这就是我开始与 Duolingo 合作的方式。

Because their head of marketing connected with someone they had worked with at Flickr and said, "I noticed Tumblr grew a lot in Brazil last year.

因为他们的营销主管联系了曾在 Flickr 工作过的人，并表示：“我注意到 Tumblr 去年在巴西增长了很多。

Can you recommend a company or an agency to help?" And they said, this girl.

您能推荐一家公司或机构来帮忙吗？”他们说，这个女孩。

And I was 26.

那年我26岁。

Gina Gotthilf: And so that's how they connected me with Duolingo, and I started helping them grow in Brazil as a consultant.

Gina Gotthilf：这就是他们将我与 Duolingo 联系起来的方式，我开始作为顾问帮助他们在巴西发展。

They were like, this is great.

他们说，这太棒了。

Can you help us grow in Chile, Argentina?

你能帮助我们在智利、阿根廷发展吗？

And I was like, yes.

我当时想，是的。

Gina Gotthilf: They were like, how about Mexico?

Gina Gotthilf：他们说，墨西哥怎么样？

And I was like, yes.

我当时想，是的。

Did I know anything about these places, Lenny?

我对这些地方了解吗，莱尼？

Did I know people there?

我认识那里的人吗？

No, but you can figure it out.

不，但你可以弄清楚。

Gina Gotthilf: And then they ended up asking me to come on full-time, do that across the world.

Gina Gotthilf：然后他们最终要求我全职工作，在世界各地做这件事。

In Japan, China, Korea, Turkey, Spain, France, et cetera.

在日本、中国、韩国、土耳其、西班牙、法国等。

And then to own growth, which ended up meaning communications, social media, government partnerships, anything to grow.

然后是自身的增长，这最终意味着通信、社交媒体、政府合作伙伴关系等任何方面的增长。

Gina Gotthilf: And then eventually became an AB testing growth engine with engineers, and PMs, and designers of which I knew nothing about.

Gina Gotthilf：然后最终成为了一个 AB 测试增长引擎，与工程师、PM 和设计师一起工作，而我对此一无所知。

And even after that, I left Duolingo five years later, didn't know what to do with my life.

即使在那之后，五年后我离开了 Duolingo，我也不知道自己的人生该怎么办。

You'd think, oh wow, you have it figured out now.

你可能会想，哦，哇，你现在已经明白了。

You left Duolingo, you have the world in front of you.

你离开了 Duolingo，你的面前就有了世界。

Gina Gotthilf: And I'm like, maybe I can finally go work for nonprofits, which is what I actually wanted to do in the first place.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：我想，也许我终于可以为非营利组织工作了，这就是我最初想做的事情。

Tried my hand at that, had a couple of experiences before going to work for the Mike Bloomberg campaign.

在为迈克·布隆伯格竞选团队工作之前，我尝试过这样做，并有过一些经验。

Gina Gotthilf: Working for the Mike Bloomberg campaign is impressive, but you know what?

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：为迈克·布隆伯格竞选活动工作令人印象深刻，但你知道吗？

Mike Bloomberg didn't win.

迈克·布隆伯格没有获胜。

He's not the president.

他不是总统。

So that was not a successful campaign, if you really look at it.

所以，如果你仔细观察的话，这并不是一次成功的活动。

And yeah, latitude seems like it's a really promising path.

是的，纬度似乎是一条非常有前途的道路。

But there's A days and B days.

但有 A 天和 B 天。

Gina Gotthilf: So it's just a lot of that, and just staying resilient, and believing in yourself, and getting back on the horse when you fall on your face.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：所以这就是很多，就是保持弹性，相信自己，当你摔倒时重新骑上马。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

That's such an important message.

这是一个非常重要的信息。

I think one of the threads from what you're describing, something that I think about a lot, is people kind of underestimate how long their career is.

我认为你所描述的主题之一，也是我经常思考的，是人们有点低估了他们职业生涯的长度。

There's just so much time to do stuff, and for things to start to work.

有这么多的时间去做事情，让事情开始发挥作用。

Lenny: This is going to sound really fancy, but I think Marcus Aurelius has this quote about how our life is actually very long, we just use it really badly.

莱尼：这听起来确实很奇特，但我认为马库斯·奥勒留有这样一句话，说我们的生命实际上很长，我们只是非常糟糕地利用它。

And we just waste a lot of our time.

我们只是浪费了很多时间。

Gina Gotthilf: Wow.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：哇。

I think you're so right, Lenny and I love that.

我认为你说得很对，莱尼和我都喜欢这一点。

Because people are going around being like, life is short, life is short.

因为人们总是说，生命短暂，生命短暂。

But that's so true.

但这是真的。

We waste so much time.

我们浪费了太多时间。

But also I think we don't recognize how much opportunity we have in front of us.

但我也认为我们没有意识到我们面前有多少机会。

And as a 26-year-old, I definitely thought my career was over.

作为一个 26 岁的人，我确实认为我的职业生涯已经结束了。

I was like, I blew it.

我当时想，我搞砸了。

And looking back, it's funny.

现在回想起来，这很有趣。

Lenny: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

莱尼：是的，我完全明白你的意思。

I spent nine years at my first job, at a random company in San Diego in a startup.

我的第一份工作是在圣地亚哥的一家初创公司工作了九年。

And I was like, what am I doing here so long?

我就想，我在这里这么久做什么？

And it turned out that was really useful for the thing I did next.

事实证明这对我接下来做的事情非常有用。

And then eventually, wow, things started to really take off.

最终，哇，事情开始真正起飞了。

Lenny: So I think that's a really good lesson for people, just for a long time.

莱尼：所以我认为这对人们来说是一个很好的教训，只是很长一段时间。

This is my fourth career.

这是我的第四个职业生涯。

I've switched careers many times.

我已经换过很多次职业了。

I was an engineer, then I was a founder, then I was a product manager.

我是一名工程师，然后是创始人，然后是产品经理。

And now I'm whatever this is, whatever you call this thing.

现在我就是无论这是什么，无论你怎么称呼它。

Gina Gotthilf: I guess me too.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：我想我也是。

I was an operator.

我是一名接线员。

I was a consultant.

我是一名顾问。

Well, I was an employee, I was a consultant.

嗯，我是一名员工，我是一名顾问。

Then I was an operator, which is a fancy way to say employee at a startup.

然后我是一名操作员，这是对初创公司员工的一种奇特说法。

And then, now I'm a founder and a VC.

然后，现在我是一名创始人和风险投资人。

And an angel, and whatever this is.

还有天使，不管这是什么。

Lenny: Awesome, awesome.

莱尼：太棒了，太棒了。

So I think that's a really important takeaway.

所以我认为这是一个非常重要的收获。

Just, there's a lot of time to do stuff.

只是，有很多时间可以做事。

And don't stress if things aren't moving as fast as you want.

如果事情进展得没有你想要的那么快，也不要感到压力。

Lenny: I want to try to bounce around between A side and B side in this conversation, that'd be a cool framework.

Lenny：我想尝试在这次对话中在 A 方和 B 方之间来回切换，那将是一个很酷的框架。

And so we're going to definitely talk about Duolingo, and a little bit more about Latin America.

因此，我们肯定会谈论 Duolingo，以及更多有关拉丁美洲的内容。

Lenny: I wanted to touch on this Mike Bloomberg story.

莱尼：我想谈谈迈克·布隆伯格的故事。

So what I understand from your experience there is, you deployed a historic amount of money into paid ads as a part of that campaign.

因此，我从您的经验中了解到，作为该活动的一部分，您在付费广告中投入了历史性的巨额资金。

I am just curious what you learned from running paid ads at that scale for a campaign or just broadly.

我只是好奇你从为一个活动或广泛投放如此规模的付费广告中学到了什么。

Gina Gotthilf: So we deployed historic amounts of money in the campaign.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：所以我们在竞选活动中投入了历史性的资金。

It wasn't me, Gina, personally.

这不是我个人，吉娜。

Lenny: It wasn't just you spending that money, yeah.

莱尼：是的，不只是你花那笔钱。

Gina Gotthilf: I think that's important to share.

Gina Gotthilf：我认为分享这一点很重要。

So my Bloomberg presidential campaign was spending roughly a million dollars a day.

所以我的布隆伯格总统竞选活动每天花费大约一百万美元。

Which is crazy.

这太疯狂了。

And you can do a lot with a million dollars a day.

每天一百万美元你可以做很多事情。

Gina Gotthilf: It's good to be Google.

Gina Gotthilf：成为 Google 真是太好了。

But yes, it's good to be Facebook.

但是，是的，成为 Facebook 是件好事。

I'll share what I think is most useful here, and also what my experience ended up being.

我将在这里分享我认为最有用的内容，以及我的经验最终是什么。

Gina Gotthilf: Which is, they brought together a lot of great talent from across the US, especially in terms of tech.

Gina Gotthilf：也就是说，他们聚集了来自美国各地的许多优秀人才，特别是在科技方面。

This is an organization called Hawk Fish, that they started working with the Mike Bloomberg.

这是一个名为 Hawk Fish 的组织，他们开始与迈克·布隆伯格合作。

Basically, he created it.

基本上，他创造了它。

I don't know, it was embedded in there.

我不知道，它被嵌入在那里。

Gina Gotthilf: There were a lot of us who had large eagles, and had been sharks in our previous organizations, who had to figure out how to come together and work and in a very short amount of time.

Gina Gotthilf：我们中有很多人都拥有大鹰，并且在我们之前的组织中曾经是鲨鱼，他们必须弄清楚如何在很短的时间内聚集在一起并工作。

That was a very interesting experience, because it's hard to do that.

那是一次非常有趣的经历，因为很难做到这一点。

It's not just important to be great and smart, but it's also important to understand how to most effectively deploy your resources and talent across an organization.

变得优秀和聪明不仅很重要，而且了解如何在整个组织中最有效地部署资源和人才也很重要。

Gina Gotthilf: And that sort of takes a little bit of time to happen.

Gina Gotthilf：这需要一点时间才能发生。

And for a presidential campaign, I find that very hard to do, from that one experience.

从那次经历来看，对于总统竞选来说，我发现这很难做到。

That said, it also meant that when you're looking at the paid ads, and the fact that we were deploying this massive amount of money, there were a lot of cooks in the kitchen when it came to figuring out exactly what we were going to do with those ads.

也就是说，这也意味着当你查看付费广告时，事实上我们投入了大量资金，厨房里有很多厨师在弄清楚我们要如何处理这些广告。

Gina Gotthilf: And how we were going to target them, and what are the campaigns we're going to run, and what's the copy, and what's the design?

Gina Gotthilf：我们将如何瞄准他们，我们将开展哪些活动，文案是什么，设计是什么？

And after maybe a few days there, I realized that my best bet in terms of actually adding value was not to be another cook in the kitchen trying to figure that out, but to move into the next step of the journey, which nobody was paying attention to.

在那里呆了几天后，我意识到，就实际增加价值而言，我最好的选择不是成为厨房里的另一个厨师试图解决这个问题，而是进入旅程的下一步，而没有人注意到这一点。

Gina Gotthilf: Which is, once you click on an ad, you land somewhere.

Gina Gotthilf：也就是说，一旦你点击广告，你就会到达某个地方。

And then whatever happens there is super important.

然后无论发生什么都非常重要。

Because if people then take the action you want them to take on that landing page, or don't, is definitive.

因为如果人们随后在该着陆页上采取您希望他们采取的行动，或者不采取行动，那就是确定的了。

But everyone spends all of their effort and money on the ads.

但每个人都把所有的精力和金钱都花在了广告上。

And I think that this is true of almost everything.

我认为几乎所有事情都是如此。

We forget to think about the step-by-step in growth, and what that experience looks like.

我们忘记了思考成长的一步一步，以及那种经历是什么样的。

And even just the second or third screen in an experience are as, if not more, important than the first one.

即使体验中的第二个或第三个屏幕也比第一个屏幕更重要，甚至更重要。

Because that's where your "leaky buckets" can happen.

因为这就是“漏桶”可能发生的地方。

Gina Gotthilf: So if you're able to 2X the effectiveness of a landing page, you are able to actually, in a compounded way, increase the effectiveness of that first ad.

Gina Gotthilf：因此，如果您能够将目标网页的效果提高 2 倍，那么您实际上就能够以复合的方式提高第一个广告的效果。

So I spent a lot of time going rogue and figuring out how to make landing pages.

所以我花了很多时间去研究如何制作登陆页面。

Because the designers and the copywriters were all allocated to the actual ad.

因为设计师和文案都被分配到了实际的广告中。

Gina Gotthilf: So I was just there being like, I'm going to do copywriting and design, and figure out how we can increase these conversion rates.

Gina Gotthilf：所以我就在那里，我要做文案和设计，并找出如何提高这些转化率。

And the cool thing about that level of dollar deployment is that you're able to reach statistical significance very quickly.

这种美元部署水平的一个很酷的事情是，你能够很快达到统计显着性。

Gina Gotthilf: Whereas in a company like Duolingo, where you already have a lot of users and you can reach statistical significance on an AB test within two weeks, at the Mike Bloomberg presidential campaign on a landing page, we could see that three times a day, so four times a day.

Gina Gotthilf：在像 Duolingo 这样的公司中，你已经拥有很多用户，并且可以在两周内通过 AB 测试达到统计显着性，而在迈克·布隆伯格 (Mike Bloomberg) 总统竞选活动的登陆页面上，我们可以每天看到三次，所以每天四次。

Gina Gotthilf: So I would be able to do something and be like, oh wow, this has a 3% conversion rate.

Gina Gotthilf：所以我可以做一些事情，然后说，哇，这有 3% 的转化率。

And then get approval for a new version and deploy it and then be like, okay, we're at 6% now.

然后获得新版本的批准并部署它，然后说，好吧，我们现在是 6%。

And then actually improve.

然后真正改善。

There was one day where I brought one page from three to 12% conversion rate with statistical significance.

有一天，我将一页的转化率从 3% 提高到了 12%，具有统计意义。

So that's, I think, the biggest benefit of having those dollar amounts.

所以，我认为，这就是拥有这些资金的最大好处。

Gina Gotthilf: I think the drawback, and that's the same for startups that have a lot of money to spend, is you start going a little wild in terms of like, oh, the world's our oyster.

Gina Gotthilf：我认为缺点是，对于那些有很多钱可以花的初创公司来说，它的缺点是你开始变得有点疯狂，比如，哦，世界是我们的牡蛎。

We can do whatever we want.

我们可以做任何我们想做的事。

And you lose sight a little bit about effectiveness, which is where growth is so magical.

你会稍微忽视有效性，而这正是增长如此神奇的地方。

Lenny: What was that change on the landing page you did that increased conversion so much, do you remember?

莱尼：您对着陆页进行的哪些更改大大提高了转化率，您还记得吗？

Gina Gotthilf: None of this is going to blow anyone's minds, I think, because it's very best practices.

Gina Gotthilf：我认为，这一切都不会让人大吃一惊，因为这是非常好的实践。

But it's easy to overlook when you're so focused on so many different steps of a process.

但当您如此专注于流程的众多不同步骤时，很容易忽视这一点。

The first one is making it mobile-optimized.

第一个是针对移动设备进行优化。

Gina Gotthilf: People who are working, are working on their computers, on desktop computers, even today.

Gina Gotthilf：即使在今天，人们仍然在电脑上、台式电脑上工作。

We forget that most people are looking at pages on our phones.

我们忘记了大多数人都在手机上查看页面。

And that has been the case for a while, and I think it's just increasing.

这种情况已经有一段时间了，而且我认为这种情况还在增加。

So you need to make sure that that experience of looking at something on your phone, whatever your phone is, is great.

因此，您需要确保无论您的手机是什么，在手机上查看内容的体验都很棒。

Gina Gotthilf: And what that means is from a landing page perspective, super simple.

Gina Gotthilf：从登陆页面的角度来看，这意味着非常简单。

First, the core copy, the message and button need to be above the fold.

首先，核心文案、消息和按钮需要位于首屏。

Or, if you're not going to keep the button above the fold, which I still recommend, but if you're not going to do that for whatever reason, then you need to have a very clear indicator that there's something to scroll towards on your page.

或者，如果您不打算将按钮保留在首屏上方（我仍然建议这样做），但如果您出于某种原因不打算这样做，那么您需要有一个非常清晰的指示符，表明页面上有可以滚动的内容。

Gina Gotthilf: The second thing, applies to both desktop and mobile, is people skim.

Gina Gotthilf：第二件事，适用于桌面和移动设备，是人们浏览。

And copywriters don't like to believe that, much like journalists don't like to believe that people just read headlines.

文案撰稿人不喜欢相信这一点，就像记者不喜欢相信人们只是阅读头条新闻一样。

It's just how it is.

就是这样。

People are busy and lazy, myself included.

人都有忙碌和懒惰的时候，包括我自己。

Gina Gotthilf: So you can write all of this beautiful messaging that you've thought through, but if people are not going to read it, it doesn't matter.

吉娜·戈特蒂尔夫：所以你可以写下所有你经过深思熟虑的美丽信息，但如果人们不会阅读它，那也没关系。

So you have to approach a landing page with that perspective in as much as possible.

因此，您必须尽可能以这种视角来处理登陆页面。

Gina Gotthilf: And so for me, what makes something particularly skimmable is first restricting copy a lot.

Gina Gotthilf：所以对我来说，让某些东西特别容易浏览的首先是大量限制复制。

And even copy that seems short is probably not short enough.

即使看起来很短的文案也可能不够短。

Second, so people normally like to have a title, some sort of subtitle, and then an image and a button.

其次，人们通常喜欢有一个标题、某种副标题，然后是图像和按钮。

Those are kind of core pieces of some sort of landing page experience.

这些是某种登陆页面体验的核心部分。

Having the title and the button speak to each other is really cool.

让标题和按钮相互对话真的很酷。

Because if people only read the title and the button, they got it.

因为如果人们只阅读标题和按钮，他们就会明白。

Gina Gotthilf: It can't be like, "Wouldn't you like the next President of the United States to blah blah blah?" And then a whole explanation of what.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：这不能是这样的：“你难道不希望下一任美国总统喋喋不休吗？”然后是对什么的完整解释。

And then the button is like, I don't know, apply.

然后按钮就像，我不知道，申请。

Whatever, right?

无论如何，对吧？

It's like, apply for what?

就好像，申请什么？

Now I have to go read the thing and I didn't get it.

现在我必须去读那本书，但我没读懂。

Gina Gotthilf: So just keeping those two things super speaking to each other.

Gina Gotthilf：所以只要让这两件事互相对话就可以了。

And then of course, making sure that that landing page speaks to the ad experience.

当然，还要确保目标网页能够体现广告体验。

And that's something that I think people do pay some attention to.

我认为人们确实对此有所关注。

Gina Gotthilf: Finally, there's an element of emotion to it.

Gina Gotthilf：最后，还有情感因素。

Which I didn't get super deep in, but just very basic.

我没有太深入，但只是非常基础。

My job was to create a landing page that made people ...

我的工作是创建一个登陆页面，让人们......

So it was actually, funnily enough, before Covid hit the US.

有趣的是，实际上是在新冠病毒袭击美国之前。

And then Covid hit the US.

然后新冠病毒袭击了美国。

Half the people in the campaign got Covid on our sad goodbye Mike Bloomberg party.

竞选活动中有一半的人在我们悲伤的告别迈克·布隆伯格派对上感染了新冠病毒。

And I had already bounced, and I left New York.

我已经跳了，离开了纽约。

I was scared.

我很害怕。

I was like, the city's going to be a Petri dish.

我当时想，这座城市将成为一个培养皿。

Gina Gotthilf: And I spent months trying to convince the whole United States, as much as I could, that Covid was going to hit the United States.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：我花了几个月的时间，尽我所能，试图让整个美国相信新冠病毒将袭击美国。

And there were going to be a lot of deaths unless we had a different president.

除非我们有不同的总统，否则将会有很多人死亡。

And so I, of course, convinced myself very effectively that we were in grave danger.

因此，我当然非常有效地说服自己，我们正处于严重危险之中。

Gina Gotthilf: And so to do that, we had images in the background of different sorts, Mike Bloomberg and whatever.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：为了做到这一点，我们在不同类型的背景中添加了图像，迈克·布隆伯格等等。

But fear really inspires people, and that's just a truth about human psychology.

但恐惧确实能激发人们的灵感，这就是人类心理的真理。

Especially when it comes to a presidential campaign.

尤其是在总统竞选方面。

Gina Gotthilf: So having dark colors like black, having Trump in sort of a black scenario, kind of looking down and looking a little menacing is more powerful than having Trump looking ridiculous, for example.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：因此，使用像黑色这样的深色，让特朗普处于一种黑色场景中，有点低头，看起来有点威胁，比让特朗普看起来可笑更强大。

In the context of, we need to take action, otherwise there will be deaths because of this.

在这种情况下，我们需要采取行动，否则就会因此而死亡。

Gina Gotthilf: So it depends on the concept, but don't underplay the importance of understanding how people are going to feel when they see something, and whether that's going to lead them to take action.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：所以这取决于概念，但不要低估了解人们在看到某些东西时的感受以及这是否会导致他们采取行动的重要性。

Keeping it super, super simple.

保持超级、超级简单。

Gina Gotthilf: Because also the other thing I see is a lot of images.

Gina Gotthilf：因为我看到的另一件事是很多图像。

It is like, no, the image can't distract from your core message.

就像，不，图像不能分散你的核心信息。

It has to be a background thing that aids in the digestion of that message.

它必须是有助于消化该信息的背景事物。

Lenny: I feel like all these startups are going to start adding Trump, menacing Trump to their landing pages because they worked for you guys.

莱尼：我觉得所有这些初创公司都将开始添加特朗普，威胁特朗普到他们的登陆页面，因为他们为你们工作。

Gina Gotthilf: Well, they're going to alienate 50% of the American population.

Gina Gotthilf：嗯，他们会疏远 50% 的美国人。

Lenny: True.

莱尼：确实如此。

There's a few other things I wanted to dig into.

我还想深入探讨其他一些事情。

One is obviously Duolingo, so let's just spend some time here.

其中之一显然是 Duolingo，所以让我们在这里花一些时间。

Lenny: So it's really interesting.

莱尼：所以这真的很有趣。

With my newsletter, I've written over 200 posts.

通过我的时事通讯，我已经写了 200 多篇帖子。

The number one, most popular post of all time, did not expect this, was about the story of Duolingo.

没想到，排名第一、有史以来最受欢迎的帖子是关于 Duolingo 的故事。

And the way that the team reignited growth after it started to plateau.

以及团队在开始陷入停滞后重新点燃增长的方式。

Lenny: Okay, there's the right pronunciation.

莱尼：好的，发音正确了。

And so...

所以...

Lenny: There's the right pronunciation.

莱尼：发音正确。

And so clearly, there's a lot of interest in the Duolingo story.

很明显，人们对 Duolingo 的故事很感兴趣。

And you were there before Jorge.

你比豪尔赫早到那里。

You were there really early.

你来得真早。

I think you were there from 3 million users to 200 million.

我认为你的用户数量从 300 万到 2 亿。

That's what I hear you describe it as.

我听到你就是这么描述的。

Gina Gotthilf: That's right.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：没错。

That's my claim to fame.

这就是我的成名之道。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

That's a large growth trajectory.

这是一个很大的增长轨迹。

So one thing I wanted to ask broadly is it feels like B to C subscription apps never work.

所以我想广泛询问的一件事是，感觉 B 到 C 订阅应用程序永远不起作用。

They never last.

它们永远不会持久。

There's so few success stories of consumer subscription apps.

消费者订阅应用程序的成功案例很少。

There's Duolingo there, Calm maybe, but I don't know, it feels like it's slowing down, Headspace, Grammarly.

那里有 Duolingo，也许很平静，但我不知道，感觉像是在放慢速度，Headspace、Grammarly。

And there's a few that are okay, but most die.

有一些还好，但大多数都死了。

I guess I'm mostly curious, what is it that you think Duolingo did right to make it basically and continue to thrive, even these days?

我想我主要好奇的是，您认为 Duolingo 做对了什么，使其基本上得以实现并继续蓬勃发展，即使是现在？

Gina Gotthilf: Very few people really believed that we were going to make it, not surprisingly.

Gina Gotthilf：很少有人真正相信我们会成功，这并不奇怪。

Even though we had this amazing team, et cetera, now it looks almost obvious, it's like B to C language learning just seems so niche.

尽管我们有这个令人惊叹的团队等等，但现在看起来几乎是显而易见的，就像 B 到 C 语言学习看起来是如此小众。

And plus education, there's no money in education.

再加上教育，教育是没有钱的。

It's been stuck for so long.

已经卡了这么久了

And what I kept hearing, "You guys, did you hear about Rosetta Stone?

我不断听到这样的话：“你们听说过罗塞塔石碑吗？

This solution already exists." So I think that there are a couple of things that really made Duolingo's success, which are very hard to replicate.

这个解决方案已经存在。”所以我认为，有几件事真正让 Duolingo 取得了成功，这是很难复制的。

Gina Gotthilf: Number one, an obsession for the mission.

Gina Gotthilf：第一，对使命的痴迷。

That sounds cliche.

这听起来很陈词滥调。

I think a lot of founders and startup people like to talk about the mission, and I get it, and I think it's real.

我认为很多创始人和初创公司的人喜欢谈论使命，我明白了，我认为这是真实的。

But I really mean it, because this obsession for solving a problem for hundreds of millions of people, and the problem wasn't just a vitamin.

但我是认真的，因为这种对解决亿万人问题的痴迷，而问题不仅仅是维生素。

It was a problem in the sense that if you don't know English in today's world, your opportunities to get out of your socioeconomic zone are very diminished.

从某种意义上说，这是一个问题，如果你在当今世界不懂英语，那么你离开社会经济区域的机会就会大大减少。

More specifically, you can double or triple your income potential by learning English in a developing market like Latin America.

更具体地说，通过在拉丁美洲等发展中市场学习英语，您可以使收入潜力增加一倍或三倍。

And there are lots of those around the world.

世界各地有很多这样的人。

That belief that education should be free and that people should have access to that opportunity, not just in developing countries, but of course, also in the US really drove the organization in a way that drove how we built our marketing, how we spoke to our users, how we designed the experience, how we put barriers in front of taking decisions that would actually impact that mission.

教育应该是免费的，人们应该有机会获得这种机会的信念，不仅在发展中国家，当然也在美国，确实推动了我们如何建立营销、如何与用户交谈、如何设计体验、如何在做出实际影响该使命的决策之前设置障碍。

It helped our users rally around the business.

它帮助我们的用户团结在业务周围。

It helped us hire the best people even if we were based in Pittsburgh and couldn't necessarily pay the Google dollars.

即使我们位于匹兹堡并且不一定向 Google 支付费用，它也帮助我们聘请了最优秀的人才。

So it's really hard to measure the importance of just really being obsessed about that mission.

因此，很难衡量真正痴迷于这一使命的重要性。

But I speak to a lot of education founders, ed tech founders, and I am very biased probably because of this experience.

但我和很多教育创始人、教育技术创始人交谈过，我可能因为这次经历而非常有偏见。

I will say that I had one of those, what's it called, the experiment where they looked at all of the shots that some plane got when it came back from war and then started fixing the plane.

我会说我有一个这样的实验，它叫什么，他们查看了一些飞机从战争中回来时得到的所有镜头，然后开始修理飞机。

There's a name for this.

这个有一个名字。

And then they realized that-

然后他们意识到——

Lenny: I forget the name, but it's the pictures.

莱尼：我忘了名字，但就是照片。

The pictures are famous with the red dots.

这些照片以红点而闻名。

Gina Gotthilf: You shouldn't fix those spots because if they got back, they survived, they were missing the plane that fell.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：你不应该修复这些地方，因为如果他们回来了，他们就活了下来，他们错过了坠落的飞机。

So I got to ride in a plane that survived.

所以我必须乘坐一架幸存的飞机。

So I have, oh, it's called survivor bias, maybe?

所以我有，哦，这可能叫做幸存者偏差？

Gina Gotthilf: I have survivor bias, but I really believe in this-

Gina Gotthilf：我有幸存者偏见，但我真的相信这一点——

Gina Gotthilf: Survivorship bias.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：幸存者偏差。

So if I speak to a founder and I can tell that they're building an ed tech because they believe that they will be able to make money from it, there's nothing wrong with making money, nothing.

因此，如果我与一位创始人交谈，我可以看出他们正在开发一项教育技术，因为他们相信他们能够从中赚钱，赚钱没有什么错，没有什么。

I want to make money.

我想赚钱。

I think it's a capitalist world that we live in, and it's fine, but just that drive is what brings people to you, and it's what leads you to make long-term thinking decisions that really end up mattering.

我认为我们生活在一个资本主义世界，这很好，但正是这种动力将人们带到你身边，并引导你做出真正重要的长期思考决策。

And it's what allowed us in many ways to grow organically versus with paid ads, which I think is crucial for an early stage tech startup.

与付费广告相比，这使我们能够在很多方面实现有机增长，我认为这对于早期科技初创公司至关重要。

It's not the only thing, but I think it's one of them that's super important.

这不是唯一的事情，但我认为这是其中非常重要的事情。

Lenny: Just to follow that thread, that's something that I actually found.

莱尼：只要遵循这条线索，这就是我实际发现的东西。

I wrote a post about this looking into of the ones that made it, what did they do consistently across them all?

我写了一篇关于调查那些成功者的文章，他们在所有这些过程中始终如一地做了什么？

And one is just stay very lean and scrappy for a long time.

一是长期保持精干和斗志旺盛。

Because to your point, it's so hard to build a big business, and you can't afford, like you said, the best people, you can't pay them as much as everyone else.

因为就你的观点而言，建立一家大企业非常困难，而且正如你所说，你无法聘请最优秀的人才，你无法向他们支付与其他人一样多的费用。

So essentially it's just a long time of just being very lean and scrappy.

所以本质上来说，这只是在很长一段时间内变得非常精干和斗志旺盛。

That was the most consistent pattern across all these B to C subscription apps.

这是所有 B2C 订阅应用程序中最一致的模式。

Gina Gotthilf: Agree.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：同意。

And that's number two.

这是第二位。

When I was hired by Duolingo as a consultant and as an employee, my mandate was make Duolingo grow.

当我被 Duolingo 聘为顾问和员工时，我的任务是让 Duolingo 成长。

Here is no budget.

这里没有预算。

I had no budget.

我没有预算。

And people are shocked.

人们感到震惊。

They're like, "Oh, but when did you turn on the ads?" We're like, "We just didn't." Because I know this is between you and me, Lenny, I actually am quite bad at paid ads.

他们会说，“哦，但是你什么时候打开广告的？”我们就像，“我们只是没有。”因为我知道这是你和我之间的事，莱尼，我实际上很不擅长付费广告。

It's just not a muscle that I ever developed.

这不是我曾经发展过的肌肉。

Gina Gotthilf: Please keep this a secret.

Gina Gotthilf：请保守秘密。

I think I could develop that muscle if one day I need it, but I'm particularly good at thinking about organic growth because I've had to, because that's what Tumblr and Duolingo required of me.

我认为如果有一天我需要的话，我可以发展出这种肌肉，但我特别擅长思考有机增长，因为我不得不这样做，因为这就是 Tumblr 和 Duolingo 对我的要求。

And the logic behind it was, listen, with Duolingo, we started monetizing the platform very late, and it was a luxury because we had so much venture capital money to sustain us for a while.

其背后的逻辑是，听着，通过 Duolingo，我们很晚才开始将这个平台货币化，这是一种奢侈，因为我们有这么多的风险投资资金可以维持我们一段时间。

But we had some bets that we made in the early days that we thought were going to help really sustain the company, like translations that didn't end up panning out.

但我们在早期做出了一些赌注，我们认为这些赌注将有助于真正维持公司，比如最终没有成功的翻译。

And then the Duolingo English test that we started developing really early with Burr Settles, an amazing guy who basically was developing this test, we realized that was going to be super long-term.

然后，我们很早就开始与 Burr Settles 一起开发 Duolingo 英语测试，Burr Settles 是一个了不起的人，他基本上就是在开发这个测试，我们意识到这将是超长期的。

We didn't start really charging for subscriptions or having ads until, I don't know exactly, but something like year three.

我们直到第三年才开始真正收取订阅费或广告费，我不太清楚，但大概是在第三年。

Gina Gotthilf: So we didn't have an LTV, which meant that having a CAC made no sense.

Gina Gotthilf：所以我们没有 LTV，这意味着拥有 CAC 没有任何意义。

So that's number one.

所以这是第一。

You need that CAC-to-LTV ratio that everyone talks about.

您需要每个人都在谈论的 CAC 与 LTV 比率。

That's an important thing.

这是一件重要的事情。

But it's more than that.

但还不止于此。

First, I think there's the CAC-to-LTV ratio thing.

首先，我认为存在 CAC 与 LTV 比率的问题。

The second thing is that even if you have a low CAC, I was just talking to an entrepreneur this morning, he was like, "Oh, we were able to hit a 10-cent CAC." And I'm like, "Yeah, but that grows." As you start targeting more people, the low hanging fruit dry out, and you end up having to pay more money.

第二件事是，即使你的 CAC 很低，我今天早上刚刚和一位企业家交谈，他说，“哦，我们能够达到 10 美分的 CAC。”我想，“是的，但它会增长。”当你开始瞄准更多的人时，容易实现的目标就会枯竭，你最终不得不支付更多的钱。

And then once you have those users coming in because of those paid ads, you can't cut it off because you still need that growth, because you're trying to prove to your investors that you're growing, or you need those users in order to continue AB testing or whatever.

然后，一旦你因为这些付费广告而吸引了这些用户，你就无法切断它，因为你仍然需要这种增长，因为你试图向你的投资者证明你正在增长，或者你需要这些用户才能继续 AB 测试或其他什么。

Then you become completely dependent, and it's really hard to turn it off.

然后你就会变得完全依赖，并且很难将其关闭。

So it's almost like an addiction, that as much as you're able to limit in the beginning, the better.

所以这几乎就像一种瘾，一开始越能限制越好。

Gina Gotthilf: And the third thing is that I really believe that ...

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：第三件事是我真的相信......

I don't believe.

我不相信。

I think we all know at this point that the most important thing for the growth of anything tech, maybe in general, is retention.

我想我们现在都知道，对于任何技术的发展来说，最重要的事情也许是一般而言，就是保留。

Of course, you need acquisition, but retention is important.

当然，你需要获取用户，但保留也很重要。

And I simplify it a little bit because retention, I don't think of it in terms of like, wow, I must retain this user.

我稍微简化了它，因为保留，我不认为它是这样的，哇，我必须保留这个用户。

It's like, is this thing valuable or not?

就好像，这个东西值钱不值钱？

That's what retention is to me.

这就是保留对我来说的意义。

Either it's actually providing real value or it's not.

它要么确实提供了真正的价值，要么没有。

If it's providing real value, people stick around.

如果它提供了真正的价值，人们就会留下来。

It's as simple as that.

就这么简单。

Gina Gotthilf: And if you don't force yourself to pay attention to retention and finding the users to whom this is the most useful really early on, you risk convincing yourself of metrics and glossing over some of this other important stuff, which means that even if you succeed at acquisition, you're just not going to succeed long-term because those users fall through.

Gina Gotthilf：如果你不强迫自己注意留存并尽早找到对他们最有用的用户，你就会冒着说服自己相信指标并掩盖其他一些重要内容的风险，这意味着即使你在获取方面取得了成功，你也不会取得长期成功，因为这些用户会流失。

And you won't really understand why because you were building retention based on acquired users that weren't the ones who weren't necessarily going to ...

你不会真正理解为什么，因为你是根据获得的用户来建立保留的，而这些用户并不是不一定会......

And I don't mean to say that I don't believe in paid at all.

我并不是说我根本不相信付费。

I think paid has its value, I think especially when it comes to testing.

我认为付费有其价值，尤其是在测试方面。

Sometimes you don't have as many users as you need to run statistically significant tests.

有时，您没有足够多的用户来运行具有统计意义的测试。

But with paid users you could, or you could just use paid ads to understand messaging and images and even value prop.

但对于付费用户，你可以，或者你可以只使用付费广告来理解消息和图像，甚至价值支撑。

On a landing page, that's super valuable.

在登陆页面上，这是非常有价值的。

Or you find an amazing niche, and you know exactly who your target users are, and you figure out a way that makes sense.

或者你找到了一个令人惊叹的利基市场，并且你确切地知道你的目标用户是谁，并且你找到了一种有意义的方法。

But then again, I would argue that if you found your perfect user and where they are, you should go figure out a way to get them organically, because if you can really provide them value, they would come and they would stay.

但话又说回来，我认为，如果你找到了完美的用户以及他们在哪里，你应该想办法有机地吸引他们，因为如果你真的能为他们提供价值，他们就会来，他们就会留下来。

Lenny: So far I've heard be really focused around a mission and be very clear about what you're trying to achieve.

莱尼：到目前为止，我听说要真正专注于一项使命，并且非常清楚你想要实现的目标。

Two is just very low spend, essentially don't expect to grow this into venture scale business.

二是支出非常低，基本上不要指望将其发展为风险规模业务。

Focus on a sustainable profitable business for as long as you can and constrain your spend basically.

尽可能长时间地专注于可持续盈利的业务，​​并从根本上限制你的支出。

And then third is this focus on retention, which I think is a really important point.

第三是对保留的关注，我认为这是非常重要的一点。

And this is true for any app you're building, but I think especially true for consumer business where people are just like, "Nah, this is cool.

对于您正在构建的任何应用程序都是如此，但我认为对于消费者业务尤其如此，人们会说，“不，这很酷。

Okay, what's next?

好吧，接下来怎么办？

Okay, let's check out Snapchat."

好吧，让我们看看 Snapchat。”

Gina Gotthilf: Totally.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：完全可以。

And I was going to have a different three, but I think it's related, so maybe we can add it as three B or four.

我本来打算有一个不同的三个，但我认为它是相关的，所以也许我们可以将其添加为三个 B 或四个。

Gina Gotthilf: An obsession for the product.

Gina Gotthilf：对产品的痴迷。

Again, sounds obvious but isn't.

再说一次，听起来很明显，但事实并非如此。

When we look back to products that existed before the internet, before the app store, you built this thing, you made it, and then you tried to convince people to buy it.

当我们回顾互联网之前、应用程序商店之前存在的产品时，你构建了这个东西，你制造了它，然后你试图说服人们购买它。

That was it.

就是这样。

So look, I made a chair, this is a beautiful chair.

看，我做了一把椅子，这是一把漂亮的椅子。

And then you spend all this money trying to get it out into the world, and people buy the chair.

然后你花所有的钱试图把它推向世界，人们就会买下这把椅子。

And you hire all these salespeople, and you hire an amazing marketing agency, and you try to sell the chair.

你雇佣了所有这些销售人员，你雇佣了一家出色的营销机构，然后你尝试出售这把椅子。

It's no longer at all that because products are constantly in motion and evolving.

现在已经不再是这样了，因为产品在不断地运动和发展。

And unless you're able to own that data and understand what it can tell you, you're never going to win.

除非您能够拥有这些数据并了解它可以告诉您什么，否则您永远不会获胜。

Gina Gotthilf: So I hear a lot of people come to me and say, "Gina, Gina, we built Duolingo for this." And I'm like, "Okay, cool." And then they show it to me, and it looks exactly like Duolingo.

Gina Gotthilf：所以我听到很多人来找我说，“吉娜，吉娜，我们为此创建了 Duolingo。”我说：“好吧，酷。”然后他们给我看，它看起来和 Duolingo 一模一样。

And I'm like, "Okay, cool." And then I'm like, "How did you get to this design?" They're like, "Oh yeah, we used Duolingo." So I'm like, "Great." But then as I started talking to them, I understand they don't have the engineers and PMs there looking at Mixpanel or whatever it is that they're using every day, understanding how every single change is leading to other changes that enables them to ask the questions and come up with the hypotheses that allow them to get to the next step.

我说：“好吧，酷。”然后我想，“你是怎么想到这个设计的？”他们会说，“哦，是的，我们使用了 Duolingo。”所以我说，“太棒了。”但当我开始与他们交谈时，我了解到他们没有工程师和产品经理关注 Mixpanel 或他们每天使用的任何东西，了解每一个变化如何导致其他变化，使他们能够提出问题并提出允许他们进入下一步的假设。

So it's almost like they just copy-pasted something.

所以这几乎就像他们只是复制粘贴了一些东西。

Gina Gotthilf: You know how I think of that?

Gina Gotthilf：你知道我是怎么想的吗？

It's like those students who are able to copy the best student's answer on the math test, and then they get frustrated that they didn't get an A because the work wasn't there, but they copied the answer.

这就像那些在数学考试中能够抄袭最好学生答案的学生，然后他们会因为没有得到A而感到沮丧，因为作业不在那里，但他们抄了答案。

But if you don't know how to do the work, you get another math question and you're not going to get it right.

但如果你不知道如何做这项工作，你就会遇到另一个数学问题，而你就无法做对。

And so that I think still misses, and I would venture to say most early stage tech startups out there.

所以我认为仍然错过了，我敢说大多数处于早期阶段的科技初创公司。

It's certainly the case in Latin America, where people think they can outsource the code or outsource the growth, and they're not just looking like hawks at the quality of the data and statistical significance and running hypotheses and questioning them.

拉丁美洲的情况确实如此，人们认为他们可以外包代码或外包增长，而且他们不仅仅是在数据质量和统计显着性以及运行假设和质疑方面表现得像鹰派。

And that rigor is a culture at Duolingo that was there from day one before me and continues to be there today.

这种严谨是 Duolingo 的一种文化，从我上任第一天起就一直存在，并且一直延续到今天。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

So I think if a listener is trying to build a subscription consumer app, I would suggest just rewind and listen to that again.

因此，我认为如果听众正在尝试构建订阅消费者应用程序，我建议您倒带并再次收听。

I think there's so much gold there.

我认为那里有很多黄金。

And in my experience, I get a lot of decks because I do a bunch of angel investing.

根据我的经验，我得到了很多套牌，因为我做了很多天使投资。

I just discount consumer subscription apps because they never work, except when they do once in a while.

我只是对消费者订阅应用程序打折扣，因为它们从不工作，除非偶尔工作。

And so my advice is if you're building something in this space, just listen to exactly what you just said.

所以我的建议是，如果你要在这个领域构建一些东西，就听听你刚才所说的。

There's a lot of important stuff, and actually internalize it.

有很多重要的东西，并且实际上将其内化。

Stay really lean, stay really focused, obsessed with retention, obsessed with making sure the product is solving the problem you're going after.

保持真正的精益，保持真正的专注，痴迷于保留，痴迷于确保产品能够解决你所追求的问题。

Gina Gotthilf: I'm so glad that you agree, Lenny.

Gina Gotthilf：我很高兴你同意，Lenny。

I really admire you.

我真的很佩服你。

So it makes me very happy.

所以这让我很高兴。

Lenny: Well, we're both happy then.

莱尼：嗯，那么我们都很高兴。

I wanted to switch to the B side, and I'm curious, what's a mess-up or a big mistake maybe that you made or your team made that was like, "Oh, wow, that was a big waste of time?"

我想切换到 B 侧，我很好奇，你或你的团队可能犯了什么混乱或大错误，比如“哦，哇，那真是浪费时间？”

Gina Gotthilf: Look, a lot of things didn't work out.

Gina Gotthilf：看，很多事情都没有成功。

More than 50% of our AB tests didn't work out.

我们超过 50% 的 AB 测试没有成功。

We made bets that didn't make sense.

我们下了没有意义的赌注。

I will say, though, that in the spirit of A and B sides, I, and think in general, we are really good at forgetting the B stuff.

不过，我要说的是，本着 A 和 B 方面的精神，我认为总的来说，我们真的很擅长忘记 B 的东西。

I talk so much about all the stuff that worked that it's hard to remember all of those moments that didn't actually work.

我谈论了太多有用的东西，以至于很难记住所有那些实际上不起作用的时刻。

And the thing that I tend to talk about, which is this mistake that we made as the growth team, is almost like one of those, when you get asked in an interview, "What's your biggest weakness?" And you're like, "I'm a perfectionist." It's one of those things that actually makes you sound good because it's the story about how my team really wanted to implement badges.

我倾向于谈论的事情，也就是我们作为增长团队所犯的错误，几乎就像当你在面试中被问到“你最大的弱点是什么？”时的错误之一。你会说，“我是一个完美主义者。”这是真正让你听起来不错的事情之一，因为这是关于我的团队如何真正想要实施徽章的故事。

We spent a lot of time playing all the games that were popular at the time, trying to understand how those gamification growth hacks that we could find in those apps would potentially overlay onto Duolingo and how we would do that.

我们花了很多时间玩当时流行的所有游戏，试图了解我们在这些应用程序中找到的游戏化增长技巧如何可能覆盖到 Duolingo 上，以及我们将如何做到这一点。

Gina Gotthilf: And badges was just pervasive in all of the top games.

Gina Gotthilf：徽章在所有顶级游戏中都很普遍。

And so it seemed like a no-brainer.

所以这似乎是理所当然的。

But since we ranked all of our experiments in terms of ROI and return being how many users we think we're going to get from this, DAUs and time investments, it never made sense to focus on this, because we thought that the time sink would be too high.

但由于我们根据投资回报率和回报（我们认为我们将从中获得多少用户、DAU 和时间投资）对所有实验进行了排名，因此关注这一点从来没有意义，因为我们认为时间消耗太高。

So I actually ended up not letting the team run this experiment for six months so that we focus on lower hanging fruit.

所以我实际上最终没有让团队进行六个月的实验，以便我们专注于容易实现的目标。

So that's a mistake on my end.

所以这是我的错误。

Then we decided to run this experiment in the most lean way possible.

然后我们决定以尽可能最精简的方式进行这个实验。

We're like, "You know what?

我们就像，“你知道吗？

There's MVPs, there's minimum viable experiments.

有 MVP，有最低限度的可行实验。

We don't have to run a whole badges thing.

我们不必运行整个徽章的事情。

We can just do something more simple and actually see if that leads to growth in an interesting way, and then we'll know."

我们可以做一些更简单的事情，看看这是否会以一种有趣的方式带来增长，然后我们就会知道。”

Gina Gotthilf: And we ran this very simple experiment that was like, "You sign up and then you get a badge." And it was like this girl with a balloon, I don't know, she was happy or whatever.

Gina Gotthilf：我们进行了这个非常简单的实验，就像“你注册，然后你就会得到一枚徽章。”就像这个拿着气球的女孩，我不知道，她很高兴还是其他什么。

And of course, in retrospect, it led to no results, because no one is proud of signing up.

当然，回想起来，这并没有带来任何结果，因为没有人为签约而感到自豪。

It's not an exciting moment, and you don't even have badges to collect.

这不是一个激动人心的时刻，而且你甚至没有徽章可以收集。

You can't show it to other people.

你不能把它展示给其他人。

None of the things that make badges compelling were there, but we were like, "Well, we does it.

没有任何使徽章引人注目的东西在那里，但我们就像，“好吧，我们做到了。

It didn't work." And then we moved on.

没用。”然后我们继续前进。

So we moved on for another, I don't know, eight months, and we didn't look back.

所以我们又继续前进，我不知道，八个月，我们没有回头。

And then when we did look back, first of all, at that point, we discovered that we hadn't been dogfooding, which also was embarrassing.

然后当我们回头看时，首先，我们发现我们并没有进行内部测试，这也很尴尬。

Gina Gotthilf: Looking back, we hadn't been dogfooding in the growth team.

Gina Gotthilf：回顾过去，我们并没有在增长团队中进行测试。

We'd just come up with hypotheses.

我们只是提出假设。

We were super careful about prioritizing them and making sure that we were doing the best possible write-ups and all these things.

我们非常小心地确定它们的优先顺序，并确保我们正在做尽可能最好的报道和所有这些事情。

But the dogfooding piece just, I didn't come from a product background.

但就狗食而言，我没有产品背景。

I was a marketer, and I didn't really understand the term dogfooding.

我是一名营销人员，我并不真正理解“dogfooding”这个词。

But when we had a conversation, we were like, "You know what?

但当我们交谈时，我们说：“你知道吗？

If we had just tested that, we would have all known that this was a super lame badge." And I was like, "Why are we not testing our experiments?" And so that became part of our practice.

如果我们刚刚测试过的话，我们都会知道这是一个超级蹩脚的徽章。”我当时想，“为什么我们不测试我们的实验呢？”所以这成为我们实践的一部分。

Gina Gotthilf: It's still relevant.

Gina Gotthilf：它仍然具有现实意义。

I just had a conversation yesterday with engineers at Latitude.

我昨天刚刚与 Latitude 的工程师进行了交谈。

I haven't explained what we're building yet.

我还没有解释我们正在构建什么。

Maybe we'll get there.

也许我们会到达那里。

But I was talking yesterday to engineers at Latitude, and they're awesome.

但我昨天和 Latitude 的工程师交谈过，他们非常棒。

In terms of product team, we have have the number eight employee at NewBank.

从产品团队来看，我们NewBank有第八名员工。

You might have heard of NewBank, but it's this massive banking fin tech in Latin America, and we have people from other fin techs, and then we have this guy who's a lead PM at Twilio, and I was explaining to them why we should be dogfooding.

你可能听说过 NewBank，但它是拉丁美洲的一家大型银行金融科技公司，我们有来自其他金融科技公司的人员，还有 Twilio 的首席产品经理，我正在向他们解释为什么我们应该进行内部测试。

And they were all like, "Oh yeah, we should dogfood." It's just easy to forget stuff like that.

他们都说，“哦，是的，我们应该进行测试。”忘记这样的事情很容易。

Gina Gotthilf: So that was a mistake that we could have probably gotten to the growth that we got to with badges much earlier on.

Gina Gotthilf：所以这是一个错误，我们本来可以更早地通过徽章实现增长。

And not only did we get to growth with badges, but it became this amazing treasure trove of opportunity.

我们不仅通过徽章获得了成长，而且还成为了这个令人惊叹的机会宝库。

Because once you have badges and people want them, you can now ask people to do anything like go find friends, go buy things, whatever it is.

因为一旦你有了徽章并且人们想要它们，你现在可以要求人们做任何事情，比如去找朋友，去买东西，无论是什么。

And so we impacted almost all metrics across the company positively, including some we hadn't expected, but it's easy to talk about a mistake that ended up being a win.

因此，我们对整个公司的几乎所有指标都产生了积极的影响，包括一些我们没有预料到的指标，但很容易谈论一个最终成为胜利的错误。

So that's why I compared it to the interview thing in the beginning.

所以这就是为什么我一开始就把它与采访的事情进行比较。

But we tried making Duolingo a social app really early on and failed.

但我们很早就尝试将 Duolingo 打造成一款社交应用，但失败了。

It was called Duels, DuoDuels.

它被称为决斗，DuoDuels。

You could duel.

你可以决斗。

Gina Gotthilf: I know.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：我知道。

We were clever, but people didn't use it, and we didn't figure out why.

我们很聪明，但人们没有使用它，我们也不明白为什么。

We tried making a Duolingo for Schools platform.

我们尝试制作一个 Duolingo for Schools 平台。

We couldn't get it to pick up.

我们没能把它接起来。

I went and launched Duolingo in China, and it got downloaded by a million people in the first day, and then the app got blocked because of the government, and then we couldn't figure out what to do.

我去中国推出了 Duolingo，第一天就有一百万人下载，然后这个应用程序因为政府的原因被屏蔽了，然后我们不知道该怎么办。

And then everyone rated the app one star because it didn't work, and so then we had a lot of trouble actually recovering from that.

然后每个人都给这个应用程序评分一颗星，因为它不起作用，所以我们在真正从中恢复时遇到了很多麻烦。

We launched Duolingo in India and didn't realize because we couldn't have unless we went there, which we finally did, that most people set their phone UI in India to English, because typing in Hindi is hard, and of course there's a lot of languages throughout India.

我们在印度推出了 Duolingo，但我们没有意识到，因为除非我们去那里，否则我们无法做到这一点（最终我们做到了），大多数人在印度将手机用户界面设置为英语，因为输入印地语很困难，当然，印度各地有很多语言。

And we were making it so that when you downloaded Duolingo, whatever UI your phone was set to, we offered not that language for you to learn.

我们这样做的目的是，当您下载 Duolingo 时，无论您的手机设置为何种 UI，我们都不会提供该语言供您学习。

That was your base language.

那是你的基本语言。

Gina Gotthilf: So we were telling people learn French, Spanish, German from English, and they were all trying to learn English, so they didn't find what they were looking for and they left.

Gina Gotthilf：所以我们告诉人们从英语学习法语、西班牙语、德语，他们都在努力学习英语，所以他们没有找到他们想要的东西，然后就离开了。

There were so many mistakes, and luckily I think we were able to bounce back from most of them in terms of how Duolingo is doing today.

我们犯了很多错误，幸运的是，我认为就 Duolingo 今天的表现而言，我们能够从其中的大多数错误中恢复过来。

Lenny: Man, there's so much there.

莱尼：伙计，那里有很多东西。

That was awesome.

太棒了。

I like that you're like, "Oh, I don't remember any of my failures." And then like, "Oh, here's all these awesome stories." That was great.

我喜欢你这样说：“哦，我不记得我的任何失败。”然后就像，“哦，这里有所有这些很棒的故事。”那很棒。

Just one thread there that comes up again and again in this podcast is the dogfooding piece, especially I think people don't trust their gut and personal instinct enough.

在这个播客中，只有一个主题反复出现，那就是狗食部分，特别是我认为人们不够相信自己的直觉和个人直觉。

I think a lot of times PMs are just like, "I need to do user research to understand what we should be doing." Versus just use the thing, see what feels wrong and keeps you from being excited and really trust that.

我认为很多时候产品经理都会说，“我需要进行用户研究来了解我们应该做什么。”而不是仅仅使用这个东西，看看哪里感觉不对劲，让你不再兴奋，然后真正相信它。

I find that more and more.

我越来越发现这样的情况。

I don't know.

我不知道。

When I read a thing and when I'm writing, I'm just like, "Oh, I don't like that.

当我读到或写作时，我会想，“哦，我不喜欢那样。

I should change that.

我应该改变这一点。

I don't need to run this by three people." So I think that's a really good lesson there.

我不需要三个人来管理这件事。”所以我认为这是一个非常好的教训。

Just don't underestimate the power of you just using it and relying on instincts and feelings you have when you're trying to use it.

只是不要低估你仅仅使用它并依靠你在尝试使用它时的直觉和感觉的力量。

Gina Gotthilf: Totally.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：完全可以。

And that's so hard to do, especially when you're young.

这很难做到，尤其是当你年轻的时候。

And I think I'll add that, especially when you're female as well, or maybe other minorities.

我想我要补充一点，特别是当你也是女性或其他少数族裔时。

It's just really hard to trust your instinct because you're constantly telling yourself, do I really know anything or am I just being lucky?

相信自己的直觉真的很难，因为你不断地告诉自己，我真的知道什么还是我只是运气好？

But you have to, and I think that forcing yourself to pretend that you know answers and just finding out what this pretend person who would know all the answers would think is really helpful because it helps you develop your point of view, your voice, and to trust yourself, even when you're working on something that you don't fully understand.

但你必须这样做，我认为强迫自己假装你知道答案，并找出这个假装知道所有答案的人会怎么想，这真的很有帮助，因为它可以帮助你发展你的观点、你的声音，并相信你自己，即使你正在做一些你不完全理解的事情。

Gina Gotthilf: As in we're building a banking platform at Latitude, I was looking at it, and they were having trouble understanding why people were having problems with wires.

Gina Gotthilf：正如我们正在 Latitude 建立一个银行平台一样，我正在研究它，他们很难理解为什么人们会遇到电汇问题。

And I told them all about how I'm an idiot when it comes to wires, and I make these mistakes A, B, C, because I don't match the line.

我告诉他们在电线方面我是个白痴，我犯了这些错误A、B、C，因为我不匹配线路。

It's like, whatever.

就好像，无论如何。

There's all this information you're supposed to input, and sometimes the information you get is not in the same order.

您需要输入所有这些信息，但有时您获得的信息的顺序并不相同。

And they're like, "Wow." And I'm like, "This is just me as a user making dumb mistakes." But that is our forte.

他们就像，“哇。”我想，“这只是我作为一个用户犯的愚蠢错误。”但这是我们的强项。

When you're able to understand that when you don't get something, probably other people don't get it too at scale.

当你能够理解，当你没有得到某些东西时，其他人可能也无法大规模得到它。

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

It's like if you're thinking about asking a question in class, many people are thinking of that same question, and they will appreciate you asking it.

这就像如果你想在课堂上问一个问题，很多人都在想同样的问题，他们会很感激你提出这个问题。

The other thing that stood out there, so the Hindi mistake you made, I actually made the same mistake with my podcast recently.

另一件突出的事情是，你犯的印地语错误，实际上我最近在播客中也犯了同样的错误。

I was noticing that the second biggest market of listeners is in India.

我注意到第二大听众市场在印度。

So I'm like, how do I lean into that and help people in India find this podcast even better?

所以我想，我该如何解决这个问题并帮助印度人更好地找到这个播客？

So I added subtitles in Hindi to a number of the episodes and tweeted it being, "Oh, look at me go, I'm going to make this so great for people in India." And everyone's like, "We don't need this.

因此，我在一些剧集中添加了印地语字幕，并在推特上写道：“哦，看看我，我会让这对印度人民来说变得如此美好。”每个人都会说，“我们不需要这个。

We prefer English.

我们更喜欢英语。

People in tech in India, we know English."

印度科技界的人，我们懂英语。”

Lenny: "This is even harder." They're like, "I can read a lot faster in English, so please don't do this." So that was a really good learning-

莱尼：“这更难了。”他们会说，“我用英语读得更快，所以请不要这样做。”所以这真是一次很好的学习——

Gina Gotthilf: There's so many languages in India.

Gina Gotthilf：印度有很多语言。

Gina Gotthilf: Really, it's crazy how people don't speak the same languages across the whole country, but also it means that people in India are fluent in so many different languages.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：确实，全国各地的人们不说同一种语言，这真是太疯狂了，但这也意味着印度人能流利地说多种不同的语言。

Lenny: We live, we learn.

莱尼：我们生活，我们学习。

I want to go back to the A side and just a couple more questions about Duolingo.

我想回到 A 方面，还有几个关于 Duolingo 的问题。

You said that most of the growth was organic and you basically had to grow it organically.

你说大部分增长是有机的，你基本上必须有机地增长它。

Is there anything that you can share that worked really well?

您可以分享一些非常有效的方法吗？

Because everybody wants to grow organically through word-of-mouth.

因为每个人都希望通过口碑有机增长。

Is there anything tactical you did that really helped Duolingo that other startups can do and try?

您采取的哪些策略对 Duolingo 确实有帮助，而其他初创公司可以这样做和尝试？

Gina Gotthilf: Absolutely.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：当然。

So first of all, I would actually say that AB testing and product-led growth is organic growth, because you're not spending money on it.

首先，我实际上想说 AB 测试和产品主导的增长是有机增长，因为你没有在上面花钱。

And so the first thing that you can do, no matter what stage your startup is, is make sure that you are not overlooking the importance of people in your product team who really know how to evaluate data and how to use that and learn.

因此，无论您的初创公司处于哪个阶段，您可以做的第一件事就是确保您不会忽视产品团队中真正知道如何评估数据以及如何使用数据和学习的人员的重要性。

And if you're too early stage, you're not looking at 5% growth, you're looking at 20, 30% growth opportunities.

如果你还处于早期阶段，你不会看到 5% 的增长，而是会看到 20%、30% 的增长机会。

But I think that's number one.

但我认为这是第一。

Gina Gotthilf: Number two, actually, this is something I might have said is something that Duolingo did really well, but I think it goes hand-in-hand with mission.

Gina Gotthilf：第二，实际上，我可能会说 Duolingo 做得非常好，但我认为它与使命密切相关。

But throwing the mission thing aside, brand and PR.

但把使命放在一边，品牌和公关。

So the importance of building a lovable brand that really resonates with people and makes people feel something and want to stand behind an idea that's bigger than themselves is not easy to do, but possible and core to being able to increase word-of-mouth.

因此，建立一个真正能引起人们共鸣、让人们有所感受并愿意支持一个比自己更伟大的想法的可爱品牌的重要性并不容易做到，但却是能够增加口碑的可能和核心。

Gina Gotthilf: So at the bottom of this is the mission, which is Duolingo, the mission was always originally to bring free language education to the world, then to build the best education to make it accessible to everyone.

Gina Gotthilf：Duolingo 的根本使命是为世界带来免费的语言教育，然后建立最好的教育，让每个人都能获得它。

I don't know how they're wording it today, but that's something most people can get behind.

我不知道他们今天是如何措辞的，但这是大多数人都能理解的。

It doesn't matter if you think Bloomberg or Trump should be president.

你认为布隆伯格还是特朗普应该当总统并不重要。

Do you think everyone should have access to great education?

您认为每个人都应该接受良好的教育吗？

Most people would say yes.

大多数人都会说是的。

And so that's much more powerful than, do you want to download an app and learn a new language?

所以这比你想下载一个应用程序并学习一门新语言要强大得多吗？

Gina Gotthilf: So if you're able to have that and things that you really believe in about what you're building that's changing lives or impacting the world, even if it is just helping business people do their jobs better in a way that's going to improve their lives and their ability to make a living, or it's going to improve a company's ability, whatever it is, the bigger idea behind it and focusing on creating something that people like, whichever your audience is.

吉娜·戈特蒂尔夫：所以，如果你能够拥有这一点，并且你真正相信你正在构建的东西正在改变生活或影响世界，即使它只是帮助商界人士更好地完成工作，从而改善他们的生活和谋生能力，或者它将提高公司的能力，无论是什么，它背后的更大的想法，专注于创造人们喜欢的东西，无论你的受众是谁。

It might be a more serious audience and something like Duolingo, but for Duolingo it meant we have this owl, the colors, and then the way that the owl talks and the notifications and the emails that you get and the product experience.

它可能是更认真的受众和像 Duolingo 这样的东西，但对于 Duolingo 来说，这意味着我们有这只猫头鹰、颜色，然后是猫头鹰说话的方式、你收到的通知和电子邮件以及产品体验。

Gina Gotthilf: All of that ties back into how people feel about your brand, which makes it so that people are more likely to talk about it, which makes it so that you are much more likely to get a reporter to write a story about you, if you have something that's meaningful outside of like, "Hey, TechCrunch, did you know that my app grew by 20% last month?" They're like, "I don't care." But if you're able to tell a story about people whose lives are completely transformed or something like that, that's much more interesting and has played an important role in, honestly, my work at Tumblr, at Duolingo, not my Bloomberg presidential campaign, but definitely Latitude as well.

Gina Gotthilf：所有这些都与人们对你的品牌的感受有关，这使得人们更有可能谈论它，这使得你更有可能让记者写一篇关于你的故事，如果你有一些有意义的东西，比如“嘿，TechCrunch，你知道我的应用程序上个月增长了 20% 吗？”他们就像是，“我不在乎。”但如果你能讲述一个关于那些生活完全改变的人的故事，或者类似的事情，那就更有趣了，而且老实说，它在我在 Tumblr、Duolingo 的工作中发挥了重要作用，而不是我在彭博社的总统竞选活动中，但也肯定在 Latitude 中发挥了重要作用。

Lenny: That's amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I was going to ask, what does that actually mean, and how do you build a lovable brand?

我想问，这实际上意味着什么，如何打造一个可爱的品牌？

And so what I've heard so far is there's this personality and voice that was really fun that you all lead into make it not just a generic translation app.

到目前为止，我所听到的是，这种个性和声音非常有趣，你们所有人都引导它使其不仅仅是一个通用的翻译应用程序。

It's like, oh, this is really fun and interesting.

就像，哦，这真的很有趣。

And then this other piece is these stories of transformation.

然后另一件作品就是这些转变的故事。

Gina Gotthilf: Yeah, there's more, there's more.

Gina Gotthilf：是的，还有更多，还有更多。

So I think a brand that stands for something, that truly stands for something, that's where the mission piece comes in.

所以我认为一个品牌代表着某种东西，真正代表着某种东西，这就是使命的所在。

Lenny: How do you communicate that?

莱尼：你如何传达这一点？

How do you people even know that the brand stands for that?

你们怎么知道这个品牌代表着这一点？

Gina Gotthilf: So that has to be an integral part of your communication.

Gina Gotthilf：所以这必须成为沟通中不可或缺的一部分。

In the early days, we tested a lot of stuff on social media.

早期，我们在社交媒体上测试了很多东西。

We made, again, mistakes.

我们再次犯了错误。

At one point we were posting photos of our team on Facebook being like, "Check out the behind the scenes." Guess what?

有一次，我们在 Facebook 上发布了我们团队的照片，内容就像是“看看幕后花絮”。你猜怎么着？

No one cares.

没有人关心。

But we had a calendar, this is very tactical, but a social media calendar where one post a week is about effectiveness, because we knew that proving that Duolingo was an effective way to learn a language and actually having data behind that moved the needle.

但我们有一个日历，这是非常战术性的，但是一个社交媒体日历，每周发布一个关于有效性的帖子，因为我们知道证明 Duolingo 是学习语言的有效方法，并且实际上有数据支持，这推动了这一点。

So making sure that was part of our communication in terms of our social media calendar, in terms of the PR pitches that we were making, in terms of whatever we were able to communicate out into the world, and then make sure that one post a week was something about the mission and what we were actually trying to accomplish.

因此，确保这是我们在社交媒体日历、我们正在做的公关宣传、我们能够向世界传达的信息方面沟通的一部分，然后确保每周发布一篇关于我们的使命和我们实际想要完成的任务的内容。

Gina Gotthilf: But it also got embedded into a lot of things.

Gina Gotthilf：但它也融入了很多东西。

For example, when we were testing screens to get people to convert into paid users on Duolingo, we found that including something like, "By paying for Duolingo, you're making language learning accessible to millions of people," that actually improved the metric.

例如，当我们测试让人们转化为 Duolingo 付费用户的屏幕时，我们发现包括“通过为 Duolingo 付费，您可以让数百万人可以学习语言”之类的内容，实际上改善了指标。

People cared enough to make the payment.

人们足够关心并付款。

So it really can be anywhere.

所以它真的可以在任何地方。

In addition to that, I love copywriting, and I believe that communication is constantly underrated, and communication isn't about being able to convey a message.

除此之外，我喜欢文案写作，并且我相信沟通一直被低估，而沟通并不在于能够传达信息。

It's about being able to convey a message in a way that the listener receives it and understands it and remembers it.

它是关于能够以听众接收、理解和记住的方式传达信息。

And that's really hard to do.

而这真的很难做到。

And one of the things I've helped employ at Duolingo that I think is still there today, it's definitely not-

我在 Duolingo 帮助使用的其中一项我认为今天仍然存在的东西，它绝对不是 -

Gina Gotthilf: I've helped employ at Duolingo, that I think is still there today, it's definitely not just me, we're an amazing team, but I've helped employ that I've used at Latitud in other places is a unique voice and what that means is exactly what you said, Lenny, not just another language learning app where we give you instructions and you follow directions.

Gina Gotthilf：我在 Duolingo 帮助过招聘，我认为今天仍然存在，这绝对不只是我，我们是一个了不起的团队，但我在 Latitud 在其他地方使用过的帮助招聘是一种独特的声音，这意味着什么正是你所说的，Lenny，而不仅仅是另一个我们向你提供指示并且你遵循指示的语言学习应用程序。

There is always a quirk.

总是有一个怪癖。

It's unexpected.

这是出乎意料的。

The way we talk to you is a little bit funny.

我们和你说话的方式有点有趣。

It doesn't take ourselves too seriously and it makes the person receiving this message feel something.

它不会太认真地对待我们自己，并且会让收到此消息的人有所感受。

It's about how you make people feel and you feel like either you giggle or you're like, "Wait, what?

这是关于你如何让人们感受到你的感觉，要么你咯咯地笑，要么你会说，“等等，什么？

They just did what?" And using that to your benefit.

他们刚刚做了什么？”并利用它来为您带来好处。

We use that a lot at Latitud today as well in terms of especially our newsletter, just self-deprecating humor and that's what's helped us grow so quickly in Latin America in such a short amount of time.

今天，我们在 Latitud 也经常使用这种自嘲式的幽默，尤其是在我们的时事通讯中，这帮助我们在如此短的时间内在拉丁美洲快速成长。

People identify with it, they see themselves as part of that.

人们认同它，他们认为自己是其中的一部分。

Again, much like the mission versus your company, and I'm a consumer.

再说一次，就像使命与你的公司相比，我是一名消费者。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Mercury, who I also happen to use for my business checking account.

莱尼：这一集是由 Mercury 为您带来的，我也恰好将其用于我的商业支票帐户。

I've tried a lot of business banks and there is nothing even close to the experience you get with Mercury.

我尝试过很多商业银行，但没有任何一家银行的体验能与 Mercury 的体验相媲美。

I moved cash over from another bank and it literally took less than half an hour to set up the account and wire money over at no cost.

我从另一家银行转入现金，实际上只花了不到半个小时就开设了账户并免费电汇资金。

They kind of make you want to use the site more often, which I've never felt with another banking site.

它们会让您想要更频繁地使用该网站，这是我在其他银行网站上从未有过的感觉。

Mercury is banking engineered for the startup journey, a modern solution to help your company become the best version of itself and Mercury isn't just a place to hold and send money.

Mercury 是专为创业之旅而设计的银行业务，是一种现代解决方案，可帮助您的公司成为最好的公司，而且 Mercury 不仅仅是一个存放和汇款的地方。

It's software built to help you scale with safety and stability, whether you're a team of two or a team of 1,000.

它的软件旨在帮助您安全稳定地扩展，无论您是两人团队还是 1,000 人团队。

Lenny: Mercury also goes beyond banking to provide you with access to the foremost investors, operators and tools.

Lenny：Mercury 还超越了银行业务，为您提供接触最重要的投资者、运营商和工具的机会。

Visit mercury.com to join over 100,000 startups on Mercury, the powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank.

访问mercury.com，加入 Mercury 上超过 100,000 家初创公司的行列，这是雄心勃勃的公司进行银行业务的强大而直观的方式。

Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank.

Mercury 是一家金融科技公司，而不是银行。

Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group and Evolve Bank & Trust members FDIC.

由 Choice Financial Group 和 Evolve Bank & Trust 成员 FDIC 提供的银行服务。

Is there an example of that, kind of like a message you remember for either from Duolingo or from even Latitud or something that worked that was really funny or different?

有没有这样的例子，比如你记得来自 Duolingo 甚至 Latitud 的一条消息，或者一些非常有趣或不同的有效消息？

Gina Gotthilf: Look, I think for Duolingo we constantly looked at every copy we wrote and asked, "Could this have been written by other companies?

Gina Gotthilf：看，我认为对于 Duolingo，我们不断地查看我们编写的每一份副本并询问，“这可能是其他公司编写的吗？

Could this have been any other company or is it Duolingo?

这可能是其他公司还是 Duolingo？

What makes this Duolingo?" And it was tough because the more people you hire who come from other backgrounds, they're not used to that style and they might even think it's unprofessional or whatever.

是什么造就了这个 Duolingo？”这很困难，因为你雇佣的来自其他背景的人越多，他们就会不习惯这种风格，甚至可能认为这是不专业的或其他什么。

You're like, "Nope, this is the Duolingo way." So, it helps figuring out, exactly what does that voice, what does it sound like?

你会说，“不，这就是 Duolingo 的方式。”所以，它有助于弄清楚那个声音到底是什么，听起来像什么？

What are some words that it tends to use?

它倾向于使用哪些词？

Why yes, why not?

为什么是，为什么不呢？

What's too much, what's too little?

什么是太多，什么是太少？

In terms of specific examples, this is something that I didn't write myself, but I wrote a lot of notifications for Duolingo for the passive-aggressive messages that I'm sure people have received, which started and then became a meme and then Duolingo used as well, but the whole, "This doesn't seem to be working.

就具体例子而言，这不是我自己写的，但我为 Duolingo 写了很多通知，用于我确信人们已经收到的被动攻击性消息，这些通知开始然后成为一个模因，然后 Duolingo 也使用了，但总的来说，“这似乎不起作用。

We'll stop sending them for now," message, which you got after five days of inactivity.

我们暂时停止发送它们”，这是您在五天不活动后收到的消息。

In addition to that message, around the same time we decided to send an email to people in New Year's because that's when people make a resolution to do things and we wanted them to make learning a language a resolution for the year.

除了这条信息之外，大约在同一时间，我们决定在新年向人们发送一封电子邮件，因为那是人们做出做事决心的时候，我们希望他们把学习一门语言作为这一年的决心。

So, we created an email and it had Sad Duo because there was...

所以，我们创建了一封电子邮件，里面有 Sad Duo，因为有......

I don't know if the screen is still there, I haven't used Duolingo in a while, but there was always a screen of Duo really sad when you fail something and that -

我不知道屏幕是否还在，我已经有一段时间没有使用 Duolingo 了，但是当你失败时，总会出现一个 Duo 屏幕，真的很悲伤 -

Gina Gotthilf: Duo is the owl, sorry.

Gina Gotthilf：抱歉，Duo 是猫头鹰。

The green owl will cry and we A/B tested the size of the puddle and the number of tears that came out of his eyes in terms of effectiveness.

绿色猫头鹰会哭泣，我们 A/B 测试了水坑的大小以及从他眼睛里流出的眼泪的数量的有效性。

So, we used Sad Duo in one of those emails and then someone picked it up on Twitter and the passive-aggressive message and this Sad Duo, they started making their own versions, which was like, "Study now or Duo will eat a poisoned loaf of bread," or, "The next email will be a funeral e-vite," things like that.

所以，我们在其中一封电子邮件中使用了 Sad Duo，然后有人在 Twitter 上发现了它，并发出了被动攻击性的信息，然后这个 Sad Duo，他们开始制作自己的版本，比如“现在学习，否则 Duo 会吃下一条有毒的面包”，或者“下一封电子邮件将是葬礼电子邀请函”，诸如此类。

Gina Gotthilf: And so that's an example, I think, to me, which can now be seen very much throughout Duolingo's brand where we could have just said, "Oh no, this is a PR disaster.

Gina Gotthilf：我认为这对我来说是一个例子，现在在 Duolingo 的品牌中随处可见，我们可以直接说，“哦不，这是一场公关灾难。

We need to go back to being this friendly, nice little fluffy thing that everyone loves." Instead being like, "No, we get that people think this is funny and we're just going to run with it," because using the Duo voice, it gives us the permission to do that because we're not square, we're not going to do that thing that you read in the textbook in school.

我们需要回到这个人人都喜欢的友好、可爱的毛茸茸的小东西。”相反，“不，我们知道人们认为这很有趣，我们就会继续这样做”，因为使用 Duo 语音，它允许我们这样做，因为我们不是方形的，我们不会做你在学校教科书上读到的事情。

We're kind of going to play along with it.

我们会和它一起玩。

Lenny: That's an incredible lesson.

莱尼：这是一个令人难以置信的教训。

It reminds me of this famous Duolingo meme that I'm sure you've seen where someone shared these...

它让我想起了这个著名的 Duolingo meme，我相信你已经看到有人分享这些......

They got these two notifications in a row, I just pulled it up here, where first they got this Duolingo push notification, "It looks like you forgot your Spanish lessons again, you know what happens now," and then the next push was from their security system, "Intruder alert, backdoor, proceed with caution," and I imagine Duolingo even leaned into that, I think when this started spreading.

他们连续收到这两个通知，我只是把它拉到这里，他们首先收到这个 Duolingo 推送通知，“看来你又忘记了西班牙语课，你知道现在会发生什么，”然后下一个推送来自他们的安全系统，“入侵者警报，后门，小心行事，”我想 Duolingo 甚至倾向于这一点，我想当这种情况开始传播时。

Gina Gotthilf: 100%, and it wasn't an easy decision because of course a lot of people in the company were really concerned about the brand image and, what are people doing and how do we revert this, that kind of thing.

Gina Gotthilf：100%，这不是一个容易的决定，因为当然公司里的很多人都非常关心品牌形象，以及人们在做什么以及我们如何恢复这种情况。

So, it was a bet that we made where we're just going to, "No, we're going to lean into it because that's what having this unique voice means.

所以，我们打了一个赌，“不，我们会倾向于它，因为这就是拥有这种独特声音的意义。

It's about getting it.

这是为了得到它。

It's about being part of something bigger.

这是关于成为更大事物的一部分。

It's about connecting with people outside of just teaching them a word a day," or whatever it is.

这是关于与人们建立联系，而不仅仅是每天教他们一个单词，”或者其他什么。

And with Latitud, I think we do that all the time in our newsletter and it's a lot of self-deprecating humor for Latinos and using expressions that could be almost offensive, but they're not in terms of Latinos only, but also the tech world, making fun of being a tech founder and the things that we do that we think are okay and it's just a lot of that where I think I would call it irreverent.

对于 Latitud，我认为我们在时事通讯中一直这样做，对于拉丁裔来说有很多自嘲式的幽默，并使用了几乎具有冒犯性的表达方式，但它们不仅仅针对拉丁裔，还针对科技界，取笑作为一名科技创始人以及我们所做的我们认为还可以的事情，其中​​很多我认为我会称之为不敬。

Gina Gotthilf: It's a tough line, it's a lot easier to be, I think, a copywriter in a place that doesn't want to do that because the lines are a lot clearer and you don't have to take as many risks, but it's so less fun, which I think makes it so less fun for the user because people are used to getting emails from their banks with corporate lingo that you don't understand, but if they get an email from their bank that's funny, ironic, but also very informative, that's a bank email I'm going to read.

吉娜·戈特蒂尔夫：这是一条艰难的路线，我认为，在一个不想这样做的地方成为文案要容易得多，因为路线更清晰，你不必承担那么多风险，但它太不那么有趣了，我认为这对用户来说就不那么有趣了，因为人们习惯于从银行收到带有你不理解的公司术语的电子邮件，但如果他们从银行收到一封电子邮件，那就很有趣了，具有讽刺意味，但也非常有用，这是我要阅读的一封银行电子邮件。

Lenny: I think that's a really good lesson.

莱尼：我认为这是一个非常好的教训。

Part of this is just taking a risk.

其中一部分只是冒险。

I think that's one of the big takeaways here is just take some risks.

我认为这里最大的收获之一就是承担一些风险。

We had Lulu Cheng on the podcast who is a huge advocate of that.

我们的播客中有 Lulu Cheng，她是这一点的大力倡导者。

She is a PR comms person that's worked at Substack and Blizzard now, and that was her advice to people-

她是一名公关传播人员，现在在 Substack 和暴雪工作，这是她给人们的建议——

Lenny: Take risks, do things that are a little controversial because that'll get attention.

莱尼：承担风险，做一些有争议的事情，因为这样会引起注意。

I definitely want to talk about Latitud, just a couple more questions on Duolingo.

我确实想谈谈 Latitud，还有几个关于 Duolingo 的问题。

One is, today feels like one of the most interesting things about Duolingo is their TikTok presence and it feels like they're doing so well, kind of leaning into exactly what you're talking about, just being really silly and different with the owl especially.

一是，今天感觉 Duolingo 最有趣的事情之一就是他们在 TikTok 上的存在，感觉他们做得很好，有点倾向于你所说的内容，只是非常愚蠢，尤其是与猫头鹰不同。

I guess the question there is just, what is it that you think allows for that?

我想问题在于，你认为什么可以做到这一点？

Is it just this very special social media person they hired that was just incredibly good at this thing and being irreverent as you said, or is there something else that contributes and allows a company to win in social media the way that Duolingo has?

是否只是他们雇佣的这个非常特殊的社交媒体人员非常擅长这件事并且像你所说的那样不敬，还是有其他东西可以做出贡献并让公司能够像 Duolingo 那样在社交媒体上获胜？

Gina Gotthilf: Look, I haven't met the person who does a TikTok and they're fantastic.

Gina Gotthilf：听着，我还没见过做 TikTok 的人，他们非常棒。

I definitely don't want to demerit their work.

我绝对不想贬低他们的工作。

It's awesome, I don't think it's easy to do, especially on a consistent basis.

这太棒了，我认为这并不容易做到，尤其是在一致的基础上。

So I think, yes, finding someone who gets humor, who gets the platform, who's able to produce content quickly, but also reacts to learnings, all of that is not easy to do.

所以我认为，是的，找到一个有幽默感、有平台、能够快速生成内容、又能对学习做出反应的人，所有这些都不容易做到。

However, I do think that everything we just talked about is at the bottom of that because if Duolingo didn't have this unique voice and leaned into the humor and wanted to be irreverent as a brand and was so focused on connecting with people where they were and ready to take risks that might seem maybe unorthodox, especially in terms of education, then an opportunity to build a TikTok like that wouldn't exist.

然而，我确实认为我们刚才谈论的一切都是最根本的，因为如果 Duolingo 没有这种独特的声音，倾向于幽默，想要作为一个品牌不敬，并且如此专注于与人们所在的地方建立联系，并准备好承担可能看起来不正统的风险，特别是在教育方面，那么建立这样的 TikTok 的机会就不会存在。

So it's both, and I think it goes back to the brand DNA, it goes back to the culture of the company and to the attention, as I said, to every single text that was published and whether or not it wasn't the right voice or not.

所以两者兼而有之，我认为这可以追溯到品牌 DNA，它可以追溯到公司文化，以及对发布的每一条文本的关注，以及它是否是正确的声音。

Gina Gotthilf: It has to do with having those conversations with the executive team where you talk about who is Duo and what are they like and how do they talk and what do they sound like and is this a Duo thing to say, is this not a Duo thing to say?

Gina Gotthilf：这与与执行团队进行对话有关，你可以谈论 Duo 是谁，他们是什么样的人，他们如何说话，听起来像什么，这是 Duo 的说法吗？这不是 Duo 的说法吗？

And committing to this idea that you're going to be remembered, that you're going to do things that sometimes are going to rub people the wrong way, and you're not just going to sit squarely in one place.

并致力于这样一个想法：你会被记住，你会做一些有时会惹恼别人的事情，而且你不会只是端正地坐在一个地方。

I think that opens the possibility for a TikTok like the one that Duolingo has today to exist, but again, whoever's running the TikTok, you're amazing.

我认为这开启了像 Duolingo 今天这样的 TikTok 存在的可能性，但同样，无论谁在运行 TikTok，你都很棒。

Lenny: That's such a good lesson.

莱尼：这是一个很好的教训。

A lot of people are looking at Duolingo, we need to find that person at our company.

很多人都在关注 Duolingo，我们需要在我们公司找到那个人。

And what you're saying is it takes a lot more than that.

你所说的是需要的远不止于此。

That person is not going to have a good time if the culture of the company isn't set up to be that...

如果公司的文化不是这样的，那么这个人就不会过得很愉快……

To have that approach to try to just take risks and be irreverent, so that's a really good point.

采用这种方法来尝试冒险和不敬，所以这是一个非常好的观点。

One final question around internationalization, you said that you helped drive internationalization of Duolingo, and I read somewhere that one of the learnings you had there was essentially treat everyone the same almost across countries, which I think people think is the counter.

关于国际化的最后一个问题，你说你帮助推动了 Duolingo 的国际化，我在某处读到，你在那里学到的其中一项内容基本上是对几乎各个国家的每个人一视同仁，我认为人们认为这是相反的。

They should often like, "No, we should be super personalized for every country we're in." What did you learn there?

他们通常应该喜欢，“不，我们应该针对我们所在的每个国家进行超级个性化。”你在那里学到了什么？

Gina Gotthilf: I think this is very controversial because not only is it the case that when you're working in regulated industries, maybe in more B2B situations, looking at specific countries is important.

Gina Gotthilf：我认为这是非常有争议的，因为不仅当您在受监管行业工作时，也许在更多 B2B 情况下，关注特定国家/地区很重要。

Looking at specific countries and elements of these countries are important, especially when you're looking at, I don't know, laws and if you need legal differences and there's a lot of things that make countries different is what I'm trying to get.

研究特定的国家和这些国家的要素很重要，特别是当你研究法律时，我不知道，如果你需要法律差异，并且有很多东西使国家不同，这就是我想要得到的。

However, humans are very similar and we think we're very different.

然而，人类非常相似，但我们却认为自己非常不同。

I don't think we're that different.

我不认为我们有那么不同。

I think that maybe we were brought up differently, and so for example, in Brazil we like to dance.

我想也许我们的成长环境不同，例如，在巴西我们喜欢跳舞。

In Mexico, we like to dance salsa, in some places it's okay to hug and other places it's not okay to hug.

在墨西哥，我们喜欢跳萨尔萨舞，在某些地方可以拥抱，而在其他地方则不可以拥抱。

Yes, there are cultural differences and it's important to love everyone and to adapt, et cetera, but a lot of these differences when it comes to core human behavior are that final 5% of understanding people.

是的，文化差异是存在的，爱每个人并适应等等都很重要，但是当涉及到人类核心行为时，很多这些差异都是最后 5% 的理解人。

Gina Gotthilf: And if as a startup, whether it be early stage, but as a startup you focus too much on those marginal differences between groups of people, you can run the risk of making big mistakes, which is making too many changes too soon and learning very little and adding crazy amounts of code complexity and overall organizational complexity to what you're building.

Gina Gotthilf：如果作为一家初创公司，无论是处于早期阶段，但作为一家初创公司，你过多关注人群之间的边际差异，你可能会冒犯大错误的风险，这就是过早做出太多改变，学到的东西很少，并为你正在构建的东西增加了疯狂的代码复杂性和整体组织复杂性。

And with Duolingo, because it was a consumer app, because we weren't dealing with a lot of regulatory issues, except for China where we had to watch out for certain words and phrases, in general, people want to learn a language and people learn a certain way and people use apps a certain way.

对于 Duolingo，因为它是一款消费者应用程序，因为我们没有处理很多监管问题，除了在中国我们必须注意某些单词和短语，一般来说，人们想要学习一门语言，人们以某种​​方式学习，人们以某种​​方式使用应用程序。

So, there's a lot of commonality.

所以，有很多共同点。

We just found that by treating the world as one, and whenever we deployed an A/B test or tried something new in terms of marketing, we would just look at it as like, "Well, if this worked here, it will work there and we should just try it out everywhere," which meant every time I went and launched Duolingo new market, I got the same feedback.

我们发现，通过将世界视为一个整体，每当我们部署 A/B 测试或尝试营销方面的新事物时，我们都会这样看待它：“好吧，如果这在这里有效，那么在那里也同样有效，我们应该在任何地方都尝试一下。”这意味着每次我去推出 Duolingo 新市场时，我都会得到相同的反馈。

Gina Gotthilf: Whatever country it was, "Here, it's different.

Gina Gotthilf：无论是哪个国家，“在这里，情况都不一样。

People are different.

人们是不同的。

You don't understand and what you're doing is not going to work and here's why you need to change." And if we had actually listened to that, it would cause all kinds of problems.

你不明白，你所做的事情是行不通的，这就是你需要改变的原因。”如果我们真的听到了这一点，就会引起各种各样的问题。

In our country, we think that green is a negative color, owls are poorly seen as an animal, or here people think that free things are actually of low value, they like things that are expensive.

在我们国家，我们认为绿色是负面颜色，猫头鹰不被视为动物，或者这里的人们认为免费的东西实际上价值很低，他们喜欢昂贵的东西。

Oh, people here really like free things and I'm like, "Everyone likes free things." They're like, "Oh, in this country..." Whatever, so yes, I think that countries are different, but it's more important to realize that people like to think they're different and people like to think their countries are different and highlight those because it makes them feel special, unique.

哦，这里的人们真的很喜欢免费的东西，我想，“每个人都喜欢免费的东西。”他们就像，“哦，在这个国家......”无论如何，所以是的，我认为国家是不同的，但更重要的是要意识到人们喜欢认为他们是不同的，人们喜欢认为他们的国家是不同的并强调这些，因为这让他们感觉特别，独特。

We're all special and unique in all of our amazing ways, but this is not necessarily it.

我们在所有令人惊奇的方面都是特别和独特的，但这不一定是这样。

Gina Gotthilf: And when you're trying to be super cautious of your resources, you have to ignore some of that because then you're able to roll out things once, which is important, but in addition to that, every new A/B test you want to run or every new hypothesis you have, if you now have a version of your app that's different in Mexico, in China, in India, whatever, you're going to have to run that test and whatever change you have in all of those versions, and then you just start having all of these different versions of the app everywhere and good luck managing that in terms of code, in terms of processes, in terms of personnel, in terms of costs, and most importantly in terms of time because now every single experiment or hypothesis is going to take you way longer to be able to deploy, and time is almost more important than money when you're a startup.

Gina Gotthilf：当你试图对你的资源非常谨慎时，你必须忽略其中的一些，因为这样你就能够一次性推出东西，这很重要，但除此之外，你想要运行的每一个新的 A/B 测试或你拥有的每一个新假设，如果你现在有一个在墨西哥、中国、印度等不同的应用程序版本，你将必须运行该测试以及在所有这些版本中进行的任何更改，然后你就开始拥有所有这些不同版本的应用程序无处不在，祝你在代码、流程、人员、成本方面的管理好运，最重要的是在时间方面，因为现在每一个实验或假设都将花费你更长的时间才能部署，而当你是一家初创公司时，时间几乎比金钱更重要。

So, it's important to keep things super simple, and this was something that we did that actually ended up paying off with few exceptions like India and China.

因此，让事情变得超级简单很重要，我们所做的事情实际上最终得到了回报，除了印度和中国等少数例外。

Lenny: That is such cool advice.

莱尼：这是非常酷的建议。

It reminds me of a quote that I think of that a friend of mine shared once, "Life is maintenance.

这让我想起一位朋友曾经分享过的一句话：“生命在于维护。

Anything you add to your life is just something you're going to have to maintain from that point forward," and similar in products.

从那时起，你添加到生活中的任何东西都将是你必须维护的东西，”产品中也有类似的东西。

Any time you add new code, you're going to maintain that code forever, and the more you can not add anything new and not make things really different, the easier everything gets.

每当您添加新代码时，您都将永远维护该代码，并且您越不能添加任何新内容并且不能使事情变得真正不同，一切就会变得越容易。

People forget that.

人们忘记了这一点。

It's like, "Oh, we're just going to spend a bunch of time to make it awesome in China or Brazil," and then, oh, they have to maintain that forever and every you feature has to...

就像，“哦，我们只是要花很多时间让它在中国或巴西变得很棒”，然后，哦，他们必须永远保持这一点，你的每一个功能都必须......

Gina Gotthilf: And it's an 80/20, so just focus on what will get you the 80 and not the 20.

Gina Gotthilf：这是 80/20，所以只需关注能让你获得 80 分而不是 20 分的事情。

And then when you have the luxury of focusing on the 20, then you can.

然后，当您有幸专注于 20 个时，您就可以了。

Lenny: So, speaking of different cultures and people being different but not that different, you pivoted your career basically to focus on Latin America.

莱尼：所以，谈到不同的文化和人民是不同的，但又没有那么不同，你的职业生涯基本上集中在拉丁美洲。

First of all, why did you decide to do that?

首先，你为什么决定这样做？

That's a pretty unique path and what pulled you there?

这是一条非常独特的道路，是什么吸引你来到这里？

Gina Gotthilf: So Lenny, I don't see it as a pivot because as we were joking in the beginning, I've been an employee, I was an operator there at early stage startups and now I'm a founder and I'm a VC, so I'm still kind of in this little stack of roles that we have in our little tech ecosystem.

Gina Gotthilf：所以 Lenny，我不认为这是一个支点，因为正如我们一开始开玩笑的那样，我一直是一名员工，我是早期初创公司的运营商，现在我是一名创始人，我是一名风险投资人，所以我仍然在我们的小型科技生态系统中担任这一小堆角色。

And in my time working with Tumblr and my agency and Duolingo, I had the pleasure of speaking with entrepreneurs all over the world, in part because I started getting some media because of the work that I've been doing starting at Tumblr, so a lot of entrepreneurs reached out to me, but also because I became a mentor for an organization called Endeavor, which is global.

在我与 Tumblr、我的代理机构和 Duolingo 合作期间，我很高兴与世界各地的企业家交谈，部分原因是我开始接触一些媒体，因为我从 Tumblr 开始所做的工作，所以很多企业家联系了我，但也因为我成为了一个名为 Endeavor 的全球组织的导师。

So, I started working with entrepreneurs in Japan and Brazil on my free time, just mentoring.

因此，我开始利用业余时间与日本和巴西的企业家合作，进行指导。

And I know that the opportunity for growth in terms of tech in Latin America is huge because first of all, the opportunity for growth in tech is huge all over the world, meaning there's just more and more to do.

我知道拉丁美洲科技增长的机会是巨大的，因为首先，全世界科技增长的机会都是巨大的，这意味着要做的事情越来越多。

Gina Gotthilf: There's more pieces of our lives that can become more efficient or better or cheaper by making them digital in some way, shape or form because digital products scale.

Gina Gotthilf：随着数字产品的规模化，我们生活中的更多部分可以通过以某种方式、形状或形式实现数字化，从而变得更有效率、更好或更便宜。

We are behind when it comes to that in terms of Latin America, and our economy is also not doing super great right now.

就拉丁美洲而言，我们落后了，而且我们的经济目前也表现不佳。

There's a number of things that make it tougher to succeed in Latin America, but make the outcome of potential success much higher.

有很多因素使得在拉丁美洲取得成功变得更加困难，但也使潜在成功的结果更高。

And simply put, there's a lot of low hanging fruit because a lot of what has already been digitized and productized in the US and more developed markets just hasn't in Latin America.

简而言之，有很多唾手可得的成果，因为很多已经在美国和更发达市场实现数字化和产品化的东西在拉丁美洲还没有实现。

And every time I took these calls, I would think like, "Well, this is not very efficient for me to be doing this one-to-one call.

每次我接听这些电话时，我都会想，“嗯，这对我来说进行一对一的电话效率不是很高。

I feel very good about myself, I feel great, and this entrepreneur learned a lot, but I wish I could do this more at scale."

我对自己感觉很好，感觉很棒，这位企业家学到了很多东西，但我希望我能更大规模地做这件事。”

Gina Gotthilf: And also it doesn't seem like this is what's going to help this entrepreneur succeed.

Gina Gotthilf：而且这似乎也无法帮助这位企业家取得成功。

Maybe it's a little bit of advice, but it's like...

也许这只是一点建议，但就像......

And not only that, but I had a lot of experiences where I would mention something about growth that I had learned and that would blow the entrepreneur's mind.

不仅如此，我还有很多经历，在这些经历中，我会提到一些我学到的关于成长的东西，这会让企业家大吃一惊。

And I would think, "Why do I know this, but not this entrepreneur who honestly is smarter and more ambitious than me?" Oh, it's because I've had a career in Silicon Valley.

我会想，“为什么我知道这一点，但这位比我更聪明、更雄心勃勃的企业家却不知道？”哦，这是因为我在硅谷工作过。

It's because I've gotten to work with some of the best people in the world and I have access to this information just free flowing in my way all the time, and we take it for granted.

这是因为我已经与世界上一些最优秀的人一起工作，并且我可以一直以我的方式自由地获取这些信息，我们认为这是理所当然的。

So, how can we make this more accessible to Latin America's entrepreneurs, so that they can have access to that?

那么，我们如何才能让拉丁美洲的企业家更容易获得这一点呢？

What else is hard to get access to that could really get in the way?

还有哪些难以访问却可能真正成为障碍的内容？

Gina Gotthilf: Oh, like access to capital.

Gina Gotthilf：哦，就像获得资本一样。

So, what's the VC in the angel ecosystem looking like and what can we do that can actually impact that at scale?

那么，天使生态系统中的风险投资是什么样的？我们能做些什么才能真正大规模地影响它呢？

And then there's other pieces of the ecosystem that are missing, like if you're going to start a company, you have to incorporate it.

然后生态系统中还缺少其他部分，例如如果您要创办一家公司，则必须将其合并。

It sounds super boring, but Brazil is one of the countries that takes the longest time to incorporate a company in the world, but then if you're going to get investment, you probably can't get investment in your Brazil entity because investors are like, "I don't know anything about Brazil, and sounds like a lot of employers get sued by their employees and lose," which is totally true, "And there's all this liability.

这听起来很无聊，但巴西是世界上注册公司时间最长的国家之一，但如果你要获得投资，你可能无法在你的巴西实体中获得投资，因为投资者会说，“我对巴西一无所知，听起来很多雇主都被员工起诉并输了，”这是完全正确的，“而且还有所有这些责任。

I feel much more comfortable investing in a Delaware company." So then entrepreneurs are like, "Oh man, now I have to create this entity in Delaware.

我对投资特拉华州的公司感到更加放心。”所以企业家就会说，“哦，伙计，现在我必须在特拉华州创建这个实体。

I don't even know where that is and what's the C-core?

我什至不知道那是哪里，C 核是什么？

What's this other thing?"

这另一件事是什么？”

Gina Gotthilf: So, there's just stuff that needs to happen for Latin Americans that we don't think about here, "Silicon Valley" talking about it as in the cloud in the US and developed markets, but also then you're able to raise money, how do you get money down to your country?

吉娜·戈特蒂尔夫：所以，拉丁美洲需要发生一些我们在这里不考虑的事情，“硅谷”在美国和发达市场的云中谈论它，但你也能够筹集资金，如何将资金转移到你的国家？

That's not simple at all.

这一点都不简单。

How do you think about the FX transactions and not get screwed in the process and who's going to do it?

您如何看待外汇交易而不是在这个过程中被搞砸？谁会来做这件事？

And so anyway, there's a number of these things that make it super hard.

无论如何，有很多事情让它变得非常困难。

And so, that's some of the problems that we wanted to solve.

这就是我们想要解决的一些问题。

Gina Gotthilf: Why it matters to me?

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：为什么这对我很重要？

I'm Brazilian, I'm Latin American, and I know that I had all of the opportunities in the world.

我是巴西人，我是拉丁美洲人，我知道我拥有世界上所有的机会。

I went to an American school, I got to go to school in the US, I got to work with some of the best tech companies in the world, and 99.9% of people in Latin America will not have these opportunities.

我去了一所美国学校，我必须在美国上学，我必须与世界上一些最好的科技公司合作，而拉丁美洲 99.9% 的人不会有这些机会。

And so for me, if I don't use this privilege to somehow make a huge impact where I came from, that will last, then I kind of wasted my life.

所以对我来说，如果我不利用这一特权以某种方式对我的家乡产生巨大的影响，这种影响将持续下去，那么我就浪费了我的生命。

So, that's why this matters so much to me, and I met my co-founder, Brian Requarth at On Deck.

所以，这就是为什么这对我如此重要，我在 On Deck 遇到了我的联合创始人 Brian Requarth。

If you've heard of On Deck before, I'm a big fan.

如果您以前听说过 On Deck，那么我就是它的忠实粉丝。

Lenny: I'm wearing On Deck socks right now.

莱尼：我现在穿着 On Deck 袜子。

Yeah, I am.

是的，我是。

Gina Gotthilf: I love their socks, and I just had a conversation with them yesterday.

Gina Gotthilf：我喜欢他们的袜子，昨天我刚刚和他们交谈过。

I am a big fan of what they built.

我非常喜欢他们所建造的东西。

I met Brian doing On Deck...

我在《On Deck》中遇见了布莱恩……

I actually was thinking of starting a completely different company, but also focused on community.

我实际上正在考虑创办一家完全不同的公司，但也专注于社区。

As we were talking about, people want to find connection, and I think that there's a lot of business opportunity there, but I met my co-founder and he was working with our third co-founder, Yuri, who was actually the guy...

正如我们所说，人们想要找到联系，我认为那里有很多商机，但我遇到了我的联合创始人，他正在与我们的第三位联合创始人尤里合作，他实际上就是那个人......

We joke he's the guy who builds things.

我们开玩笑说他是建造东西的人。

Gina Gotthilf: He's the CTO, he actually knows how to build and started talking about what it is that we can do to make an impact in the speed at which tech startups succeed in Latin America because we think we can have a huge impact on the GDP of the whole region, developments, job opportunities, and so on and so forth.

Gina Gotthilf：他是首席技术官，他实际上知道如何构建，并开始谈论我们可以做些什么来提高科技初创公司在拉丁美洲的成功速度，因为我们认为我们可以对整个地区的 GDP、发展、就业机会等产生巨大影响。

So to me, that's what motivates me.

所以对我来说，这就是我的动力。

It's like figuring out how I can use my time as leverage to make the biggest impact possible in terms of socioeconomical mobility for people in the world and focusing on the part of the world that I came from made the most sense.

这就像弄清楚我如何利用我的时间作为杠杆，在世界上人们的社会经济流动性方面产生最大的影响，并关注我来自的世界上最有意义的地方。

Lenny: So you referenced this company, that you started Latitud.

Lenny：所以你提到了这家公司，你创办了 Latitud。

Maybe just describe briefly, just broadly, how do you pitch what Latitud does to folks that might find it useful?

也许只是简单地、概括地描述一下，你如何向那些可能觉得 Latitud 有用的人推销它？

Gina Gotthilf: I will, and I still do a pretty bad job with pitching it, but the pitch is basically we're building the operating system for Latin American early stage tech startups, and what that means is that building a startup is hard anywhere, but it's extra hard in Latin America for some of the reasons that I outlined.

吉娜·戈特蒂尔夫：我会的，而且我在推销方面仍然做得很糟糕，但基本上我们正在为拉丁美洲的早期科技初创公司构建操作系统，这意味着在任何地方建立一家初创公司都很难，但由于我概述的一些原因，在拉丁美洲尤其困难。

Some of the things that we decided to solve for are one, it's super lonely to be a founder.

我们决定解决的一些问题是，作为一名创始人是非常孤独的。

And if you're able to meet great founders who are just a step ahead of you in anything, be it in product or growth or marketing or incorporation or finances, you can save yourself so much time from trying to read books and Google if they can just tell you what to do or connect you with the right person, that if we were able to connect these people meaningfully, we could make a huge impact.

如果你能够遇到伟大的创始人，他们在任何事情上都比你领先一步，无论是在产品、增长、营销、公司合并还是财务方面，如果他们能告诉你该做什么或让你与合适的人建立联系，你就可以节省大量时间，不用去阅读书籍和谷歌，如果我们能够有意义地联系这些人，我们就可以产生巨大的影响。

Gina Gotthilf: So, that's number one, it's lonely.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：所以，这是第一，它很孤独。

And number two, you build a startup in Brazil and you're like, "Wow, this is working.

第二，你在巴西建立了一家初创公司，你会想，“哇，这很有效。

I'm going to go to Silicon Valley." I've seen this happen a lot in the past decade, and Silicon Valley is a completely different place.

我要去硅谷。”在过去的十年里我见过很多这样的事情，而硅谷是一个完全不同的地方。

The US, it's a different place, the competition's different.

美国是一个不同的地方，竞争也不同。

3% of people in Brazil only, and that varies in Latin America, speak English.

仅巴西就有 3% 的人会说英语，拉丁美洲的情况各不相同。

So, the likelihood of you being taken seriously is low.

所以，你被认真对待的可能性很低。

Your chances of success are low, but at the same time, Latin America has so much in common as a region, but we don't actually actually see that if we're Latin Americans.

你成功的机会很低，但与此同时，拉丁美洲作为一个地区有很多共同点，但如果我们是拉丁美洲人，我们实际上并没有看到这一点。

We just think we're countries, especially Brazilians don't think that they're part of the rest, and Mexicans don't think about Brazil.

我们只是认为我们是国家，尤其是巴西人不认为他们是其他国家的一部分，墨西哥人也不考虑巴西。

It's so far, look at it on the map.

已经到了，看地图就知道了。

In the US you're like, oh Latin America."

在美国，你就像，噢，拉丁美洲。”

Gina Gotthilf: But if you're there, it's just not at all connected, but the opportunities of growth are huge and dependent on whether you meet the right people are able to open doors and understand that our problems are so similar that a solution for one part of this region could potentially be great for another part of the region.

吉娜·戈特蒂尔夫：但如果你在那里，那就根本没有联系，但增长的机会是巨大的，并且取决于你是否遇到合适的人，能够打开大门并了解我们的问题如此相似，以至于该地区某一地区的解决方案可能对该地区的另一地区也有好处。

I'm not doing a great job of pitching, but in addition to it being lonely and it being difficult to find the right resources and really trustworthy knowledge, it's really hard to raise capital and it's really hard to do things like incorporate and bring your money down, et cetera.

我在推销方面做得并不好，但除了孤独、很难找到合适的资源和真正值得信赖的知识之外，筹集资金真的很困难，做合并和减少资金等事情也真的很难。

So, that's what we do.

所以，这就是我们所做的。

First, we have a fellowship program.

首先，我们有一个奖学金计划。

We have 1,500 entrepreneurs who got in, we run four cohorts a year, about 600 applicants per, and so you get in and you get access to all of these resources we've put together.

我们有 1,500 名企业家加入，我们每年举办四个小组，每个小组大约有 600 名申请者，因此您可以加入并获得我们汇集的所有这些资源。

Gina Gotthilf: You get to find out what everyone thinks about other investors in the region because I think it's important to disseminate that information.

Gina Gotthilf：您可以了解每个人对该地区其他投资者的看法，因为我认为传播这些信息很重要。

You get access to introductions to investors through each other and advice and events.

您可以通过彼此介绍投资者并获得建议和活动。

In addition, we have a fund, so we've invested in 100 startups and we're raising our second fund now.

此外，我们还有一只基金，所以我们已经投资了 100 家初创公司，现在我们正在筹集第二只基金。

It's going to be around $25 million with a $30 million cap, so that's another thing.

其金额约为 2500 万美元，上限为 3000 万美元，所以这是另一回事。

So we invest, you figure out your investment game, but you might become one of our investments as well.

所以我们投资，你弄清楚你的投资游戏，但你也可能成为我们的投资之一。

And in addition, we have products that make it a lot easier to navigate the super, in my opinion, boring and frustrating stuff behind starting a company that you don't want to think about it as an entrepreneur because you're trying to solve a problem and build a team and build a product.

此外，我们的产品可以让您更轻松地应对创办一家公司背后的超级无聊和令人沮丧的事情，在我看来，您不想将其视为企业家，因为您正在尝试解决问题并建立团队并开发产品。

Gina Gotthilf: You're not trying to figure out what's the best incorporation method and how to open a bank account in the US and how to figure out the foreign exchange prices and bring the money down and how to manage that money or how to stay compliant in your country, and then in two other jurisdictions, if you have a Delaware and a Cayman.

吉娜·戈特蒂尔夫：你并不是想弄清楚什么是最好的注册方法，如何在美国开设银行账户，如何计算外汇价格并降低资金成本，如何管理这些资金或如何在你的国家保持合规，然后在其他两个司法管辖区（如果你有特拉华州和开曼群岛）。

So, we do all of that for you and make it easy through a dashboard we built, a bank that we built, and so on and so forth.

因此，我们为您完成所有这些工作，并通过我们构建的仪表板、我们构建的银行等等让一切变得简单。

So, it's not an easy to describe business because it's kind of an ecosystem play.

因此，这不是一个容易描述的业务，因为它是一种生态系统游戏。

We're trying to elevate the tech ecosystem in Latin America, and it's a lot of moving parts.

我们正在努力提升拉丁美洲的科技生态系统，其中有很多变化的部分。

Lenny: You basically help them do everything, which is what I'm hearing, and it sounds like you'd be a fool not to take advantage of this.

莱尼：你基本上帮助他们做所有事情，这就是我所听到的，听起来你如果不利用这一点就是个傻瓜。

The customers essentially are founders in any Latin America country, is that right?

客户基本上都是任何拉丁美洲国家的创始人，对吗？

Gina Gotthilf: Founders in Latin America, but we also have a lot of US-based founders who are building for Latin America because they understand that the opportunity there is huge.

Gina Gotthilf：创始人来自拉丁美洲，但我们也有很多美国创始人正在为拉丁美洲进行建设，因为他们知道那里有巨大的机会。

Lenny: Awesome, and then what is the arrangement?

Lenny：太棒了，那么安排是怎样的呢？

Do you take equity if they join the program?

如果他们加入该计划，您会获得股权吗？

Is it free?

免费吗？

Gina Gotthilf: We don't, joining the program is free.

Gina Gotthilf：我们不这样做，加入该计划是免费的。

You just have to be able to get in.

您只需能够进入即可。

For a number of reasons, we just don't want to deter anyone who's amazing from being part of this community, and so that's why we made that decision.

出于多种原因，我们只是不想阻止任何出色的人成为这个社区的一部分，所以这就是我们做出这个决定的原因。

If we invest, we take equity.

如果我们投资，我们就获得股权。

If you choose to use our products, that's a paid thing.

如果您选择使用我们的产品，那是付费的。

So, you can choose what makes sense for you.

因此，您可以选择对您有意义的内容。

Lenny: Something I wanted to ask about is what is it that Latin American founders and companies are uniquely good at?

莱尼：我想问的是，拉丁美洲的创始人和公司最擅长什么？

Is there kind of a thread across Latin American startups that are like, oh, they're so good at this area, pay attention here?

拉丁美洲的初创公司是否有一种主线，比如，哦，他们在这个领域非常擅长，请注意这里？

Gina Gotthilf: In general terms, startup founders have to be really scrappy and resourceful and resilient.

Gina Gotthilf：一般来说，初创公司的创始人必须非常斗志旺盛、足智多谋、富有弹性。

Latin Americans tend to be very scrappy, resourceful, and resilient because of just the realities in which we were brought up in.

由于我们成长的现实，拉丁美洲人往往非常斗志旺盛、足智多谋、适应力强。

We have words for that that we don't have in English and Portuguese in Spanish, which is like dancing around things and figuring out things when you don't have other solutions.

我们有一些西班牙语中没有的英语和葡萄牙语词汇来表达这一点，这就像在没有其他解决方案的情况下围绕着事物跳舞并解决问题。

So, I think that's something that we see a lot.

所以，我认为这是我们经常看到的事情。

In terms of what we're really good at, I would say first of all, there's opportunity in every single vertical in Latin America because it's such a wide open field, so there's opportunity everywhere.

就我们真正擅长的领域而言，我首先要说的是，拉丁美洲的每个垂直领域都存在机会，因为这是一个广阔的领域，所以到处都有机会。

Gina Gotthilf: It's not that we're particularly good at FinTech, for example, but if you look at the FinTech opportunity in Latin America right now, it's so hot and there's so much money and there's so much happening because of the huge problem of people not having access to bank accounts or access to credit, or just all of the bureaucracy that exists in trying to get those things or to make payments and so on and so forth.

Gina Gotthilf：举例来说，并不是说我们特别擅长金融科技，但如果你看看拉丁美洲现在的金融科技机会，它是如此热门，有如此多的资金，并且发生了如此多的事情，因为人们无法访问银行账户或获得信贷，或者只是在试图获得这些东西或付款时存在所有官僚主义等等。

So, there's just huge opportunity there.

所以，那里有巨大的机会。

I'm trying to think what else-

我正在努力思考还有什么——

Gina Gotthilf: So there's just huge opportunity there.

Gina Gotthilf：所以那里有巨大的机会。

Trying to think what else I would highlight.

试着思考我还要强调什么。

Ah, Lenny, you talked about B2C.

啊，Lenny，你谈到了 B2C。

I think again, because there's so much open field, there's so much opportunity when it comes to B2B, especially when you're talking about SMBs.

我再次想到，因为有如此多的开放领域，所以在 B2B 方面有如此多的机会，特别是当你谈论中小企业时。

There's a lot of small and medium businesses doing things on paper, so figure out what they are and how you can make them not on paper and deploy them effectively.

有很多中小型企业在纸上做事，所以弄清楚它们是什么以及如何使它们不在纸上并有效地部署它们。

So I think that's an advantage we have.

所以我认为这是我们的优势。

Gina Gotthilf: Other than that, I wouldn't highlight anything in particular.

Gina Gotthilf：除此之外，我不会特别强调任何事情。

I think that there's amazing people all over the world.

我认为世界各地都有很棒的人。

It's just a matter of what are the opportunities that exist.

这只是存在哪些机会的问题。

And because there's so many opportunities that are Latin America specific or that are emerging market specific, which means that if they work in an emerging market in Latin America, they could work in other emerging markets.

而且因为有很多拉丁美洲特有的机会或新兴市场特有的机会，这意味着如果他们在拉丁美洲的新兴市场工作，他们也可以在其他新兴市场工作。

And you know what?

你知道吗？

Most of the world is not developed markets and understanding what it's like to not have access to amazing wifi and iPhones and all the things that we have access to, that can be a huge advantage because that's the reality that most of the population lives in.

世界上大部分地区都不是发达市场，了解无法使用令人惊叹的 wifi 和 iPhone 以及我们可以使用的所有东西的感觉，这可能是一个巨大的优势，因为这就是大多数人生活的现实。

And that's a huge TAM.

这是一个巨大的 TAM。

Lenny: That makes me think about WhatsApp.

Lenny：这让我想到了 WhatsApp。

And one of the reasons they made it is they were just obsessed with making the app incredibly small and fast.

他们这样做的原因之一是他们只是痴迷于让应用程序变得非常小和快速。

And they started, I think with international markets and then that just ended up being an amazing app so fast and so easy to use.

他们开始，我认为是国际市场，然后最终成为一个令人惊叹的应用程序，如此快速且易于使用。

Gina Gotthilf: And still, and now there's things being built on top of WhatsApp.

Gina Gotthilf：不过，现在有些东西是建立在 WhatsApp 之上的。

We just invested in a company called Leadsales, and they basically turn your WhatsApp into a CRM, which is amazing because so much business is being done on WhatsApp, and that's not the case here in the US.

我们刚刚投资了一家名为 Leadsales 的公司，他们基本上把你的 WhatsApp 变成了 CRM，这太棒了，因为很多业务都是在 WhatsApp 上完成的，而在美国却不是这样。

So you want to understand that you can build something for that.

所以你想了解你可以为此构建一些东西。

And there are other markets that are using WhatsApp for which that's also going to be useful.

还有其他正在使用 WhatsApp 的市场，这也将很有用。

And the other thing is I think that emerging or developing markets tend to sometimes skip over things because we're so behind.

另一件事是，我认为新兴市场或发展中市场有时会忽略一些事情，因为我们太落后了。

Gina Gotthilf: So for example, there's examples of these in India and in some countries in Africa where, I don't know, the desktop was skipped, people just went straight to mobile.

Gina Gotthilf：举个例子，在印度和非洲的一些国家，我不知道，人们跳过了桌面，直接转向移动设备。

I think we can see these catapult opportunities because then when you start building something and you didn't even build for the previous version of whatever it is that was being used because in the US or more developed market, you had access to them, then you are in a way at an advantage.

我认为我们可以看到这些弹射机会，因为当你开始构建某些东西时，你甚至没有为正在使用的任何以前版本构建，因为在美国或更发达的市场，你可以访问它们，那么你在某种程度上处于优势。

So I'm excited to see how that plays out in the next few years, and I'm particularly curious to see how that plays out when it comes to AI.

因此，我很高兴看到这在未来几年中会如何发挥作用，而且我特别好奇在人工智能方面会如何发挥作用。

Lenny: One last question around Latin America.

莱尼：最后一个问题是关于拉丁美洲的。

It's going to be a broad question.

这将是一个广泛的问题。

What do you think people should be paying attention to, whether it's specific companies you want to call out, big companies that are doing great or just trends or patterns, what do you think people should be paying attention to?

你认为人们应该关注什么，无论是你想要点名的特定公司、做得很好的大公司还是只是趋势或模式，你认为人们应该关注什么？

Anything you want to shout out?

有什么想大声喊出来的吗？

Gina Gotthilf: Lenny, the truth is I would love to call out all of our portfolio companies.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：莱尼，事实是我很想点名我们所有的投资组合公司。

I believe in all of them, and there are some of them that are growing incredibly impressively.

我相信所有这些，而且其中一些正在以惊人的速度增长。

One of them is Pomelo, which is a FinTech platform for FinTechs that is just grown incredibly.

其中之一是 Pomelo，这是一个刚刚发展得令人难以置信的金融科技金融科技平台。

To me, it's more about paying attention to Latin America.

对我来说，更多的是关注拉丁美洲。

I think for the US, that's already a lot.

我认为对于美国来说，这已经很多了。

I don't think people know what's going on below the border, I have no idea what Brazil is like, but paying attention because it's not just a place that's behind and trying to catch up.

我认为人们不知道边界以下发生了什么，我不知道巴西是什么样子，但要注意，因为它不仅仅是一个落后并试图迎头赶上的地方。

It's a place where the opportunity to make a lot of money exists.

这是一个存在赚大钱机会的地方。

It's a higher risk region because of all the political and economic instability.

由于政治和经济不稳定，这是一个风险较高的地区。

But given the scenario that we're in right now, which is that we're still behind in terms of all the solutions that we know will be built to give people access to health, to education, to financial services, et cetera.

但考虑到我们现在所处的情况，即我们在所有我们知道将为人们提供健康、教育、金融服务等服务的解决方案方面仍然落后。

Gina Gotthilf: But we actually have a lot of money flowing into the region in terms of venture capital.

Gina Gotthilf：但实际上，我们有大量资金在风险投资方面流入该地区。

We have the best talent we've ever had because now we've had, I forget how many, but a lot of IPOs that came from Latin America and unicorn companies, people who have worked at those companies or who have worked places like Duolingo are coming back to build now, know what they're doing.

我们拥有有史以来最优秀的人才，因为现在我们拥有了，我忘记了有多少，但很多来自拉丁美洲和独角兽公司的首次公开募股，在这些公司工作过或在 Duolingo 这样的地方工作过的人现在回来建设，知道他们在做什么。

And so there's a number of things that have come together that make now a really exciting time to build a startup in Latin America and to scale it.

因此，有很多因素结合在一起，使得现在成为在拉丁美洲建立初创企业并扩大规模的真正令人兴奋的时刻。

So from an investment perspective, I just think that there's a lot of hot opportunities now in terms of knowing what's a good opportunity versus not.

因此，从投资的角度来看，我认为现在有很多热门机会，可以了解什么是好机会，什么是坏机会。

I think the same rules probably apply to those anywhere else, which is most importantly, the entrepreneur.

我认为同样的规则可能适用于其他任何地方的人，最重要的是企业家。

Does this person know what they're talking about?

这个人知道他们在说什么吗？

Gina Gotthilf: Do they have an unfair advantage in terms of knowing what a problem that exists and knowing how to solve it in a way that others couldn't do?

Gina Gotthilf：在了解存在的问题并知道如何以其他人无法做到的方式解决问题方面，他们是否具有不公平的优势？

They have access to the best talent in the world, not just in the region that will actually join them and build the best thing possible.

他们可以接触到世界上最优秀的人才，而不仅仅是在真正会加入他们并打造最好事物的地区。

And yeah, what's the TAM?

是的，TAM 是什么？

And not just what they put on the slide, but what you actually believe the TAM to be.

不仅仅是他们在幻灯片上展示的内容，还有您真正相信的 TAM 是什么。

So that's what I would say.

这就是我要说的。

I think everyone's looking at FinTech and Latin America right now.

我认为现在每个人都在关注金融科技和拉丁美洲。

It's hot, it's profitable.

很热，很赚钱。

Money is where the money is, but I'm super excited about what happens with health and education in particular because I think that that has the power to truly transform the region in a massive way.

有钱就有钱，但我对健康和教育方面发生的事情感到非常兴奋，特别是因为我认为这有能力真正大规模地改变该地区。

Gina Gotthilf: At Latitud, I think I mentioned in addition to FinTech, we tend to invest a lot in B2B SMB platforms that are helping businesses scale and work more effectively because there is a huge need for that and there's an opportunity to build.

Gina Gotthilf：在 Latitud，我想我除了金融科技之外还提到过，我们倾向于在 B2B 中小企业平台上投入大量资金，这些平台可以帮助企业扩展规模并更有效地工作，因为对此有巨大的需求并且有机会构建。

And I think that that can have an impact on the region.

我认为这可能对该地区产生影响。

So I think that would be my advice.

所以我想这就是我的建议。

It's a little broad, but other than that, if not, I would just now sit here and tell you 15 companies that we love at Latitud and I won't.

这个范围有点宽泛，但除此之外，如果没有的话，我现在就坐在这里告诉你们 Latitud 我们喜欢的 15 家公司，但我不会。

Lenny: Well, we can point people to your portfolio page on your website.

莱尼：嗯，我们可以引导人们访问您网站上的作品集页面。

Gina Gotthilf: I would love to highlight our portfolio companies.

Gina Gotthilf：我想重点介绍一下我们的投资组合公司。

Maybe I'll just send you a list or something.

也许我只会给你发一份清单什么的。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Lenny: Perfect.

莱尼：完美。

We will figure out a way to share that.

我们将找到一种方法来分享这一点。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Gina, are you ready?

吉娜，你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Gina Gotthilf: The one book I recommend because I truly, it really changed the way I think about things.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：我推荐的一本书，因为我真的，它确实改变了我思考事物的方式。

It taught me a lot about a discipline I had never really thought much about, but also because I think it makes me sound smart and it's a really short book, so it's easy to get through is The Design Of Everyday Things.

它教会了我很多关于一门我从未真正思考过的学科的知识，而且因为我认为这让我听起来很聪明，而且这本书很短，所以很容易读懂《日常事物的设计》。

For me, that was the first time that I realized that design wasn't just this sort of cool thing that some people were into and they had to get and it made things beautiful.

对我来说，这是我第一次意识到设计不仅仅是一些人喜欢的、他们必须得到的很酷的东西，它让事情变得美丽。

It was about understanding how everything is designed and how to think about design and usability.

这是关于理解一切是如何设计的以及如何思考设计和可用性。

Gina Gotthilf: So for someone like me who didn't have any experience in product before, I think it could be transformative.

Gina Gotthilf：对于像我这样以前没有任何产品经验的人来说，我认为这可能是变革性的。

And then the second book, it has nothing to do with what we do.

然后第二本书，它与我们所做的事情无关。

I recommend Viktor Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning because at heart I'm a philosopher and I tend to think a lot about life, the meaning of life and what differentiates one life from the next and how to live a good one.

我推荐维克多·弗兰克尔（Viktor Frankl）的《人类寻找意义》（Man's Search For Meaning），因为我本质上是一名哲学家，我倾向于思考很多关于生命、生命的意义、一种生活与另一种生活的区别以及如何过上美好生活的问题。

And no matter what profession we choose that continues to be important.

无论我们选择什么职业，它仍然很重要。

So those are my recommendations.

这些是我的建议。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoy?

莱尼：您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Gina Gotthilf: So first of all, I love Succession, but I don't think we have to go into that.

Gina Gotthilf：首先，我喜欢《继承》，但我认为我们不必讨论这个问题。

One that was recommended to me by a friend who I very much admire was Mike Krieger, co-founder of Instagram is How to with John Wilson.

我非常敬佩的一位朋友向我推荐的一个是 Instagram 的联合创始人迈克·克里格 (Mike Krieger)，他是 How to with John Wilson。

It's a really weird TV show that I would've never found if it wasn't for him.

这是一个非常奇怪的电视节目，如果不是他，我永远不会发现。

But the premise is basically this guy, I think he's a filmmaker and he's awkward and it's cool that he's awkward.

但前提基本上是这个人，我认为他是一名电影制片人，他很尴尬，而且他很尴尬很酷。

It's just his style and he decides to make a TV show about creating to help people who are really worried or scared of doing something and helping them prepare for that moment in their lives.

这就是他的风格，他决定制作一部关于创作的电视节目，以帮助那些真正担心或害怕做某事的人，并帮助他们为生命中的那一刻做好准备。

Gina Gotthilf: So for example, someone is really scared of telling their friends that they lied about how many college degrees they had or whatever that they said they had a master's degree, but they didn't.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：举个例子，有人真的很害怕告诉他们的朋友，他们在拥有多少大学学位或任何他们说自己拥有硕士学位的问题上撒了谎，但他们没有。

And it's now been five years and it's not the debate club, but I forget what it is, but something that requires some sort of intellect and he doesn't want to confront the group.

现在已经五年了，这不是辩论俱乐部，但我忘了那是什么，而是需要某种智力的东西，而他不想与这个团体对抗。

And so he recreates everything that could possibly happen that day in order to make this easier.

因此，他重现了那天可能发生的一切，以使这一切变得更容易。

Or another one about having kids.

或者关于生孩子的另一件事。

Someone's really scared about making the decision about whether or not they want to have kids.

有些人真的很害怕做出是否想要孩子的决定。

So it's kind of a documentary, but it's not.

所以这是一部纪录片，但事实并非如此。

It's awkward.

很尴尬。

It's weird, but it's so good.

这很奇怪，但也很好。

And then I would say White Lotus, just like so good.

然后我会说“白莲花”，就像那么好一样。

Lenny: I do that song to my new child often because it's so funny.

莱尼：我经常给我的新孩子唱这首歌，因为它很有趣。

Gina Gotthilf: My husband and I do it at home.

Gina Gotthilf：我和我丈夫在家里做。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I'm not going to do it, but it's a recurring favorite on this podcast.

我不会这样做，但它是这个播客中反复出现的最爱。

So we had a short drinking game where every time someone said, White Lotus, we drink.

所以我们进行了一个简短的饮酒游戏，每当有人说“白莲花”时，我们就喝酒。

So I'm going to have some tea here real quick.

所以我要在这里喝点茶。

Gina Gotthilf: Okay.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：好的。

I'm sorry to be predictable, but like I said-

很抱歉我的预测是这样的，但就像我说的——

Gina Gotthilf: We humans are a lot more similar than we'd like to think.

Gina Gotthilf：我们人类比我们想象的要相似得多。

What's amazing Lenny is just my realization more and more of how much this is true because I like to think of myself as unique much like everybody else.

令人惊奇的是，莱尼只是我越来越意识到这是多么真实，因为我喜欢认为自己和其他人一样独特。

And then I started seeing that all of these really creative decisions I made are what all of the other millennial white girls did.

然后我开始发现我做出的所有这些真正有创意的决定都是其他千禧一代白人女孩所做的。

It's just fascinating.

这真是令人着迷。

Oh, I like whatever, mid-century modern furniture.

哦，无论如何，我喜欢中世纪的现代家具。

Oh, you know what?

哦，你知道吗？

Actually, I'll tell you what movie is my favorite one?

事实上，我会告诉你我最喜欢哪部电影？

Bo Burnham's Inside.

博·伯纳姆的《里面》。

I love-

我爱-

Gina Gotthilf: I don't know if that's a movie, but I'm in love with Bo Burnham.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：我不知道那是不是一部电影，但我爱上了博·伯纳姆。

My husband knows about this.

我丈夫知道这件事。

I know all of the songs and what is it?

我知道所有歌曲，那是什么？

White Girl's, Instagram?

白人女孩的，Instagram？

White Woman's Instagram.

白人妇女的Instagram。

Such a good song.

这么好的一首歌。

That's what I'm talking about.

这就是我要说的。

Lenny: Also, I've been re-listening to How is the best case scenario, Joe Biden,

莱尼：另外，我一直在重新听乔·拜登，最好的情况是怎样的，

Gina Gotthilf: They're going to make me vote for Joe Biden.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：他们会让我投票给乔·拜登。

I was singing this to my parents.

我唱这首歌给我的父母听。

They didn't get it.

他们不明白。

Lenny: That's amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

We'll link to that video, that movie.

我们将链接到该视频、该电影。

It's even after COVID, it's incredible.

即使在新冠疫情之后，这也是令人难以置信的。

Anyway, I was actually going to say that first show you mentioned, I think it's called The Rehearsal, maybe there's a different title.

不管怎样，我其实想说的是你提到的第一场演出，我想它叫《排练》，也许有不同的标题。

Gina Gotthilf: Oh my gosh, you're right.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：天哪，你是对的。

So he has two shows and one of them is called How To and the other one is called The Rehearsal.

所以他有两场演出，其中一场叫做How To，另一场叫做The Rehearsal。

And you're right, I am recommending the rehearsal.

你是对的，我建议排练。

I have also seen How To, which are shorter episodes where he films in New York and he just goes like How to find a parking spot.

我还看过《How To》，这是他在纽约拍摄的较短剧集，他只是说“如何找到停车位”。

And then it takes him on this down a rabbit hole of how cars are made or parking in the city.

然后他就开始深入了解汽车的制造或城市停车的方式。

But it's also very good.

但它也非常好。

But I prefer The Rehearsal.

但我更喜欢《排练》。

Lenny: And Nathan Fielder's the guy behind all this who's incredibly hilarious.

莱尼：内森·菲尔德是这一切的幕后黑手，他非常搞笑。

He has a new show, actually I think it's on HBO with John Wilson or something that he's producing or it's this other guy.

他有一个新节目，实际上我认为是在 HBO 上与 John Wilson 合作的节目或者他正在制作的节目，或者是另一个人制作的节目。

He's going around talking about stuff in New York and I think he's a producer.

他在纽约到处谈论事情，我认为他是一名制片人。

Gina Gotthilf: That's the one I'm talking about.

Gina Gotthilf：这就是我正在谈论的。

That's How To with John Wilson.

这就是约翰·威尔逊的方法。

Lenny: Oh, there we go.

莱尼：哦，我们开始了。

So I think he's behind that.

所以我认为他是幕后黑手。

Okay, look at us.

好吧，看看我们。

We're figuring things out.

我们正在解决问题。

Gina Gotthilf: We are figuring things out.

Gina Gotthilf：我们正在解决问题。

So I think he has maybe a new season.

所以我认为他可能会有一个新赛季。

Lenny: Think season two.

莱尼：想想第二季。

I haven't started that one yet.

我还没有开始那个。

Anyway, here we go.

无论如何，我们开始吧。

We're going to keep going.

我们将继续前进。

What is a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates that you're interviewing?

您最喜欢问正在面试的候选人的面试问题是什么？

Gina Gotthilf: Why do you want to work here is what I really like to ask because it tells me a lot.

Gina Gotthilf：我真正想问的是你为什么想在这里工作，因为它告诉了我很多东西。

Of course, everyone wants a job.

当然，每个人都想要一份工作。

People could just be like, because I want a job and it seems like you guys pay well and whatever.

人们可能会说，因为我想要一份工作，而你们似乎薪水不错等等。

I think this is a good next step in my career, but I want to know if this person knows what it is that we do, if they did a minimum level of research and if they connect with our mission because we're going to talk about mission a lot and I don't want them to gloss over it and to make decisions that are short-term thinking that go against our mission because of the reasons I mentioned with Duolingo.

我认为这是我职业生涯的良好下一步，但我想知道这个人是否知道我们在做什么，他们是否做了最低水平的研究，以及他们是否与我们的使命有联系，因为我们将大量谈论使命，我不希望他们掩盖它并做出与我们的使命相悖的短期思维决策，因为我在 Duolingo 中提到的原因。

So I think that's one, it's not very unique, but I think gives you a lot of information.

所以我认为这就是其中之一，它不是很独特，但我认为它为您提供了很多信息。

And then I would say, what are you world-class at and how do you know that you're at that?

然后我会说，你在什么方面是世界级的？你怎么知道你在这方面？

Gina Gotthilf: And the second part is almost more important.

Gina Gotthilf：第二部分几乎更重要。

What are you world class at?

你在什么方面是世界级的？

It's okay if someone says, look, I'm working on becoming world class at whatever, and this is why I think I'm great at it or whatever.

如果有人说，看，我正在努力在任何方面成为世界一流，这就是为什么我认为我很擅长或其他什么，这也没关系。

But the second part is important because it tells me if people actually care about metrics, and I don't care what the metrics are, but just how do you know this to be true?

但第二部分很重要，因为它告诉我人们是否真的关心指标，而且我不关心指标是什么，但你怎么知道这是真的呢？

It has to be more than like, "Oh, because my boss loves me," or "Because my mom told me," "because I gave a talk," or whatnot or whatever I want to hear, "I'm proud of having accomplished this." And maybe if you have some numbers to show, that's also really important.

它必须不仅仅是“哦，因为我的老板爱我”，或者“因为我妈妈告诉我”，“因为我做了一次演讲”，或者诸如此类的东西，或者任何我想听的东西，“我为完成这件事感到自豪。”也许如果你有一些数字要展示，那也非常重要。

Lenny: What is a favorite product that you recently discovered that you really like?

Lenny：您最近发现自己真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Gina Gotthilf: I have not been trying any products, I would say.

Gina Gotthilf：我想说，我还没有尝试过任何产品。

So nothing to recommend.

所以没什么可推荐的。

I would say though that I am very curious to try these gut health tests that are out there now or microbiome ones.

我想说的是，我很好奇尝试现有的肠道健康测试或微生物组测试。

I'm really interested in how little we know about our body and how tech can actually help democratize this information.

我真的很感兴趣的是，我们对自己的身体知之甚少，以及科技如何真正帮助这些信息民主化。

And going on a tiny rant.

并进行了小规模的咆哮。

I'm also feeling very resentful of doctors right now because we've always lived in a world in which doctors are sort of like these authorities and we must just believe whatever it is that they tell us, and we rely on them for information that is crucial to our survival.

我现在也对医生感到非常不满，因为我们一直生活在一个医生有点像这些权威的世界里，我们必须相信他们告诉我们的一切，并且我们依赖他们来获取对我们生存至关重要的信息。

Gina Gotthilf: But we're now in a world where we can Google things and that's even more scary because you have to know how to filter that information really well and you don't find explanations to things.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：但我们现在生活在一个可以通过谷歌搜索事物的世界，这更可怕，因为你必须知道如何很好地过滤这些信息，但你却找不到对事物的解释。

But doctors don't like you Googling because they say it's scary, but also because they don't like being questioned.

但医生不喜欢你用谷歌搜索，因为他们说这很可怕，但也因为他们不喜欢被质疑。

I think we're finally coming to a place where a lot of these devices that can give you great information about your body so that you understand your nutrition and very core things about ourselves that we don't today are becoming accessible to a lot of people just to the population.

我认为我们最终会到达一个这样的境地：许多这样的设备可以为您提供有关您身体的重要信息，以便您了解您的营养以及我们今天无法获得的关于我们自己的非常核心的信息，这些设备正在变得可供很多人使用。

It's still expensive but we're getting there, and I think that will be magical.

它仍然很昂贵，但我们正在实现这一目标，我认为这将是神奇的。

So I will call out the company Levels by my friend Sam Corcos because I think that what they're doing is awesome.

所以我会称呼我的朋友 Sam Corcos 公司为 Levels，因为我认为他们所做的事情非常棒。

Lenny: Next question.

莱尼：下一个问题。

What is a favorite life motto that you like to think about?

您最喜欢思考的人生格言是什么？

Come back to share with other people.

回来与其他人分享。

Gina Gotthilf: One is "This too shall pass." And I will tell you this one right now is particularly meaningful to me right now because I'm going through a really tough moment because I have long COVID and lost my taste and smell, and it might be long-term.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：其中之一是“这也会过去”。我会告诉你，现在这对我来说特别有意义，因为我正在经历一个非常艰难的时刻，因为我长期感染新冠病毒，失去了味觉和嗅觉，而且这可能是长期的。

So, but I think it applies to the A/B thing that I was talking about when everything in life is moments except for a couple of diagnoses.

所以，但我认为这适用于我所说的 A/B 事情，即除了几次诊断之外，生活中的一切都是瞬间。

And so, "This too shall pass," is something I say to myself a lot.

因此，“这一切都会过去”，这是我经常对自己说的话。

The second one is also not particularly motivational, but I really believe in it, which is, "Fake it till you make it." That's something I've held onto for a long time.

第二个也不是特别激励人心，但我真的相信它，那就是“假装成功，直到成功”。这是我长期以来一直坚持的事情。

And even today, I don't mean lie.

即使在今天，我的意思也不是说谎。

I don't mean pretend to be something that you're not, but it's almost like a way to overcome imposter syndrome and by opening rooms for yourself to be who you want to become so that you enable opportunities to become that.

我的意思并不是假装成你不是的人，但这几乎就像是克服冒名顶替综合症的一种方法，为自己打开空间，成为你想成为的人，这样你就有机会成为那样的人。

Gina Gotthilf: And I'm not saying lying, but early in my career, I did fake it until I make it from the point of view of not saying no to things.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：我并不是说撒谎，但在我职业生涯的早期，我确实假装它，直到我从不拒绝事物的角度做到了这一点。

When companies were saying to me being like, "Hey, can you help us grow without a budget like Tumblr," right?

当公司对我说，“嘿，你能在没有像 Tumblr 这样的预算的情况下帮助我们成长吗？”对吗？

I was 25, 26.

我当时25岁、26岁。

I was like, "Yeah, and then go figure it out." And when Duolingo turned to me and said, "Hey, can you be head of growth?" And I didn't know what growth was and I had to Google and find Andrew Chen's blog, I read it and I found out and I just said, "Yes," and then kept going with that.

我当时想，“是的，然后去弄清楚。”当 Duolingo 转向我说：“嘿，你能担任增长主管吗？”我不知道增长是什么，我必须在谷歌上找到安德鲁·陈的博客，我读了它，我发现了，我只是说，“是的”，然后继续这样做。

So fake it till you make it as kind of that for me.

所以假装它直到你为我做的那样。

Gina Gotthilf: But even today I have a lot of imposter syndrome, which I actually think is not imposter syndrome, is just acknowledging that I don't know a lot.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：但即使在今天，我也有很多冒名顶替综合症，我实际上认为这不是冒名顶替综合症，只是承认我知道的不多。

My team says I have too much self-deprecating humor that actually puts the company down.

我的团队说我有太多自嘲的幽默感，这实际上让公司失望了。

It puts me down.

这让我很沮丧。

So fake it till you make it to me means knowing how to stand in front of your team or a reporter or Lenny in a podcast and almost like being that person that you would like to be or being your best self.

所以假装直到你成功意味着知道如何站在你的团队、记者或播客中的莱尼面前，几乎就像成为你想成为的人或成为最好的自己。

You could call it whatever you want, but I think it can really help you get out of the little hole that you would put yourself into and limit opportunities for yourself.

你可以随心所欲地称呼它，但我认为它确实可以帮助你摆脱你自己陷入的小洞，并限制自己的机会。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

This question elicits so many interesting insights and stories.

这个问题引发了许多有趣的见解和故事。

I appreciate you sharing all that.

我很感谢你分享这一切。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

You majored in philosophy, if I'm not mistaken.

如果我没记错的话，你学的是哲学。

I'm curious, do you have a favorite philosopher or someone that most influenced the way you think about the world?

我很好奇，你有最喜欢的哲学家或对你思考世界的方式影响最大的人吗？

Gina Gotthilf: I use a lot of philosophy in my day-to-day, but it's not because I have deep knowledge, it's because I have light knowledge that I draw on that helps people think I'm smart and relates to ideas.

Gina Gotthilf：我在日常生活中使用了很多哲学，但这并不是因为我有深厚的知识，而是因为我有浅薄的知识，可以帮助人们认为我很聪明并且与想法相关。

I often talk about Theseus's ship, to me that allegory is one of the most interesting ones because it's about identity and building and whether if the allegory is like the ship-

我经常谈论忒修斯的船，对我来说，这个寓言是最有趣的寓言之一，因为它涉及身份和建筑，以及寓言是否像船一样——

Gina Gotthilf: So Theseus is on this journey.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：忒修斯正在踏上这段旅程。

I think he leaves Crete and he's going somewhere else and he's on a boat.

我认为他离开了克里特岛，要去别的地方，而且他在船上。

And then over the course of the trip so many things happen.

然后在旅行的过程中发生了很多事情。

They've hit so many waves and they have storms that they have to replace planks, and re-sow the sail and by the time they arrive at the next port, nothing on the ship is the same as it was before.

他们遭遇了如此多的海浪和暴风雨，以至于他们不得不更换木板，重新张开帆，当他们到达下一个港口时，船上的一切都与以前不一样了。

They'd replace every single plank.

他们会更换每一块木板。

They'd replace all the masts, they've replaced all the sails.

他们会更换所有的桅杆，他们已经更换了所有的帆。

And so the question is, is this the same boat that left the dock?

那么问题来了，这还是离开码头的那艘船吗？

And to me, that's a really interesting concept around transformation and what it means to have an identity that exists over time, even when so much of us or so much of a company or so much of a country changes, and what is that core identity?

对我来说，这是一个关于转型的非常有趣的概念，以及拥有随着时间的推移而存在的身份意味着什么，即使我们中的很多人、公司的很多人或国家的很多人发生了变化，核心身份是什么？

Gina Gotthilf: And to me that shapes I think a lot of ideas because it's a cool allegory and it resonates a lot.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：对我来说，这塑造了我很多想法，因为这是一个很酷的寓言，而且引起了很多共鸣。

But yeah, so I would say at this point I embarrassingly have very cursory knowledge of philosophy.

但是，是的，所以我想说，在这一点上，我对哲学的了解非常粗略。

I could probably remember a lot of it if I went back to it, but I don't use it in my day-to-day, and I would love to take time off at some point and go study, but I'm also embarrassed to admit that I'm not a person who just finishes work is completely depleted and then wants to bury my face in a philosophy book.

如果我回去看的话，我可能会记住很多，但我不会在日常中使用它，我很想在某个时候抽出时间去学习，但我也不好意思承认，我不是一个刚完成工作就完全疲惫不堪，然后想把脸埋在一本哲学书里的人。

I would like to acquire all of this philosophy knowledge, but I want to watch White Lotus.

我想获得所有这些哲学知识，但我想看《白莲花》。

Or if I'm going to force myself to work out, I'll listen to an audio book that makes me feel good about myself, and it's a fiction one.

或者，如果我要强迫自己锻炼，我会听一本让我自我感觉良好的有声读物，而且这是一本小说。

Lenny: I think this is actually a great example of exactly what you're talking about, where we change and we are not necessarily the same person we were.

莱尼：我认为这实际上是你所说的一个很好的例子，我们改变了，我们不一定是同一个人。

That makes sense that you're not obsessed with philosophy having finished that a while ago and now working on something totally different.

这是有道理的，因为你不久前完成了哲学，现在正在研究完全不同的东西，所以你并不痴迷于哲学。

Gina Gotthilf: Yeah, I think I still am because I consider myself to be very existential.

吉娜·戈蒂尔夫：是的，我想我仍然是因为我认为自己非常存在主义。

I'm an atheist, so I like to find meaning.

我是一个无神论者，所以我喜欢寻找意义。

It's not like it doesn't exist so much for me, and I think about the big questions and I am interested in philosophy.

这对我来说并不是不存在，我思考重大问题，而且我对哲学很感兴趣。

I'm just not interested enough to make time and effort for it in my life right now.

我只是没有足够的兴趣在我的生活中投入时间和精力。

Lenny: As a hidden gem.

莱尼：就像一颗隐藏的宝石。

At the end of this episode, I'll share, I'm also an atheist and I actually ran a website called atheistspot.com.

在本集的结尾，我将分享，我也是一个无神论者，而且我实际上经营着一个名为 atheistspot.com 的网站。

It was like a Reddit for atheist news.

这就像无神论者新闻的 Reddit。

I went to conferences.

我去参加会议。

Gina Gotthilf: What does it do?

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：它有什么作用？

We didn't see God again today, still no God to be found.

今天我们没有再见到上帝，仍然找不到上帝。

Lenny: Yep.

莱尼：是的。

The funniest thing is we had Google AdWords on there and the ads were based on the stories around different religions, and it says all like christianmingle.com, the atheistspot.com.

最有趣的是，我们在那里安装了 Google AdWords，广告是基于不同宗教的故事，上面写着 christianmingle.com、atheistspot.com 之类的内容。

Anyway, Gina, we covered so much ground.

无论如何，吉娜，我们已经涵盖了很多内容。

What an amazing episode.

多么精彩的一集啊。

I learned a ton from you.

我从你身上学到了很多。

I'm so excited for people to hear this.

我很高兴人们听到这个消息。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Gina Gotthilf: Yes.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫：是的。

Okay.

好的。

Thanks, Lenny.

谢谢，莱尼。

So people can find me online if you want to see just ridiculous posts.

所以如果你想看一些荒谬的帖子，人们可以在网上找到我。

That's where my Instagram is, and my Instagram is impressive because I'm Gina on Instagram.

那就是我的 Instagram 所在，我的 Instagram 令人印象深刻，因为我是 Instagram 上的吉娜。

Yes, I am just Gina.

是的，我只是吉娜。

Gina Gotthilf: So that's super impressive.

Gina Gotthilf：这真是太令人印象深刻了。

You won't even find it when you look for me because you'll see all these other Gina's, but it's just at Gina.

当你找我时你甚至找不到它，因为你会看到所有其他吉娜的，但它就在吉娜。

That's me.

这就是我。

I do share some professional things as well there too, but I think it's my more entertaining channel.

我也在那里分享一些专业的东西，但我认为这是我更有趣的频道。

You can find me on LinkedIn.

您可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。

I'm a little more serious on LinkedIn.

我在LinkedIn上比较严肃一点。

I have a photo with Obama, which will certainly impress you, so find me.

我有一张和奥巴马的合影，一定会给你留下深刻的印象，所以来找我吧。

Gina Gotthilf on LinkedIn.

吉娜·戈特希尔夫 (Gina Gotthilf) 在 LinkedIn 上。

Lenny: So many stories we haven't covered.

莱尼：还有很多故事我们没有讲到。

Gina Gotthilf: I know I'm Gina G on Twitter, and that's probably, you know what?

Gina Gotthilf：我知道我在 Twitter 上是 Gina G，这可能就是，你知道吗？

I did a Harry Stebbings podcast and then that got me 600 followers on TikTok, but I've never posted, but maybe at some point.

我做了一个 Harry Stebbings 播客，然后这让我在 TikTok 上有了 600 名关注者，但我从未发过帖子，但也许在某个时候。

I feel self-conscious, but I think I could be a good TikToker because I think I'm amusing.

我感到难为情，但我认为我可以成为一名优秀的 TikToker，因为我认为我很有趣。

Lenny: Well, you're not going to get followers by saying there's nothing good there.

莱尼：嗯，说那里没有什么好东西是不会得到追随者的。

I think if you want people, they'll follow you.

我想如果你想要人，他们就会跟着你。

You should tell them it's going to be great there.

你应该告诉他们那里会很棒。

Gina Gotthilf: Come see my amazing contact content on TikTok.

Gina Gotthilf：快来看看我在 TikTok 上精彩的联系方式内容。

I will definitely start posting it soon, and you can influence what kind of content will be there because I'm listening to my followers right now, and then how you can be useful.

我肯定会很快开始发布它，你可以影响那里的内容类型，因为我现在正在倾听我的关注者的意见，然后你可以如何发挥作用。

Look, if you know of an amazing founder in Latin America, if you are an amazing founder in Latin America, or if you are in touch with VCs who are interested in this, then definitely tell them about Latitud.

看，如果你认识拉丁美洲的一位出色的创始人，如果你是拉丁美洲的一位出色的创始人，或者如果你与对此感兴趣的风险投资家有联系，那么一定要告诉他们 Latitud。

You go to latitud.com.

您访问 latitud.com。

Do not misspell Latitud.

不要拼错 Latitud。

It doesn't have an E at the end.

它的末尾没有 E。

That's because latitude in Spanish is latitud.

那是因为西班牙语中的纬度是latitud。

However, it's also because we couldn't buy latitude.com with an E, but now that's what it is and it's grown a ton, so get in touch, join the fellowship, join our community.

然而，这也是因为我们无法用 E 购买 latitude.com，但现在它就是这样，而且它已经发展了很多，所以请联系我们，加入联谊会，加入我们的社区。

We're particularly useful by the way to us people who are interested in getting plugged into Latin America, because if you get in, you just meet all the top people in one fell swoop, and that helps you make friends relationships, find clients, find your business partners, and understand the ecosystem in a hacky way.

顺便说一句，我们对我们那些有兴趣进入拉丁美洲的人特别有用，因为如果你进入了，你就会一下子遇到所有顶尖人物，这可以帮助你建立朋友关系，找到客户，找到你的商业伙伴，并以一种黑客的方式了解生态系统。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Gina, thank you so much for being here.

吉娜，非常感谢你来到这里。

Bye everyone.

再见大家。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。