Customer-led growth | Georgiana Laudi (Forget The Funnel)

Georgiana Laudi: The problem with funnels and pirate metrics and the favorites that I love to pick on are MQLs and SQLs is that nobody knows what those mean.

Georgiana Laudi：渠道和盗版指标以及我最喜欢选择的 MQL 和 SQL 的问题在于，没有人知道它们的含义。

It puts every customer in the same sort of buckets.

它将每个客户都放在同一类型的桶中。

It assumes that all customers and all products are the same.

它假设所有客户和所有产品都是相同的。

It puts businesses, or they, I should say, puts businesses at the center of the business versus putting customers at the center.

它将企业，或者我应该说，将企业置于业务的中心，而不是将客户置于中心。

Right?

正确的？

It's about the values of the business, not the value to the customer that's being measured.

这是关于企业的价值，而不是所衡量的客户的价值。

Also, it just kind of feels gross for people, this idea of pushing people through a funnel.

而且，这种将人们推向漏斗的想法对人们来说有点恶心。

And then probably a particularly relevant for SaaS companies is that recurring revenue businesses, you cannot think about marketing and growth and the business overall as ending an acquisition, otherwise you're not in business anymore.

然后，可能与 SaaS 公司特别相关的是经常性收入业务，你不能将营销和增长以及整体业务视为结束收购，否则你就不再从事业务了。

And the vast, vast majority of these models don't take post-acquisition, retention, expansion, all of that into account.

而且绝大多数这些模型都没有考虑收购后、保留、扩张，所有这些。

So yeah, in a nutshell, funnels are bad.

所以，是的，简而言之，漏斗很糟糕。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny, and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and scaling today's most successful companies.

我采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们建立和扩展当今最成功公司的来之不易的经验。

Today, my guest is Georgiana Laudi.

今天，我的客人是乔治亚娜·劳迪。

Georgiana, aka Gia, runs a consultancy called Forget The Funnel, where she works hands on with SaaS companies to help them unlock and accelerate growth.

Georgiana（又名 Gia）经营着一家名为 Forget The Funnel 的咨询公司，她与 SaaS 公司合作，帮助他们释放并加速增长。

Lenny: As you'll hear, she often finds huge unlocks and opportunities often doubling or tripling conversion in various points in their product flows.

Lenny：正如您所听到的，她经常发现巨大的解锁机会和机会，通常可以使产品流程中各个点的转化率增加一倍或三倍。

In our conversation, she shares the exact process that she goes through to help companies figure out where their biggest growth opportunities lie, and also how to execute on them.

在我们的谈话中，她分享了她帮助公司找出最大的增长机会所在以及如何执行这些机会的具体流程。

We chat about how to identify your most important customers, how to very practically map their journey through your flows and set goals, and then execute on your ideas.

我们讨论如何识别您最重要的客户，如何通过您的流程非常实际地规划他们的旅程并设定目标，然后执行您的想法。

There's a lot of wisdom and some fun stories packed into this episode.

这一集充满了很多智慧和一些有趣的故事。

So with that, I bring you Gia.

因此，我给你带来了吉亚。

Lenny: I'm excited to chat with my friend John Cutler from podcast sponsor Amplitude.

Lenny：我很高兴能与来自播客赞助商 Amplitude 的朋友 John Cutler 聊天。

Hey, John.

嘿，约翰。

John Cutler: Hey, Lenny.

约翰·卡特勒：嘿，莱尼。

Excited to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: John, give us a behind the scenes at Amplitude.

莱尼：约翰，请给我们介绍一下 Amplitude 的幕后花絮。

When most people think of Amplitude, they think of product analytics, but now you're getting into experimentation and even just launch a CDP.

当大多数人想到 Amplitude 时，他们会想到产品分析，但现在您正在进入实验，甚至只是启动 CDP。

What's the thought process there?

那里的思维过程是怎样的？

John Cutler: What we've always thought of Amplitude is being about supporting the full product loop, think collect data, inform bets, ship experiments, and learn.

John Cutler：我们一直认为 Amplitude 是支持整个产品循环、思考收集数据、通知投注、进行实验和学习。

That's the heart of growth to us.

这就是我们成长的核心。

So the big aha was seen how many customers were using Amplitude to analyze experiments, use segments for outreach, and send data to other destinations.

因此，我们看到有多少客户使用 Amplitude 来分析实验、使用分段进行推广以及将数据发送到其他目的地。

Experimenting CDP came out of listening to and observing our customers.

试验 CDP 源于倾听和观察客户的意见。

Lenny: Supporting growth and learning has always been Amplitude's core focus, right?

Lenny：支持成长和学习一直是 Amplitude 的核心重点，对吧？

John Cutler: Yeah.

约翰·卡特勒：是的。

So Amplitude tries to meet customers where they are.

因此，Amplitude 试图满足客户的需求。

We just launched Starter Templates and have a great scholarship program for startups.

我们刚刚推出了入门模板，并为初创公司提供了很棒的奖学金计划。

There's never been a more important time for growth.

对于成长来说，从未有过如此重要的时刻。

Lenny: Absolutely agree.

莱尼：绝对同意。

Thanks for joining us, John.

感谢您加入我们，约翰。

Head to amplitude.com to get started.

前往振幅.com 开始。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens.

莱尼：这一集是由 Athletic Greens 为您带来的。

I've been hearing about AG1 on basically every podcast that I listened to, like Tim Ferriss and Lex Fridman.

我基本上在我听过的每个播客上都听说过 AG1，比如 Tim Ferriss 和 Lex Fridman。

So I finally gave it a shot earlier this year, and it has quickly become a core part of my morning routine, especially on days that I need to go deep on writing or record a podcast like this.

所以我终于在今年早些时候尝试了它，它很快就成为我早上例行公事的核心部分，尤其是在我需要深入写作或录制这样的播客的日子。

Here's three things that I love about AG1: One, with a small scoop that dissolves in water, you are absorbing 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens.

我喜欢 AG1 的三点是：第一，只需一小勺溶于水的物质，您就可以吸收 75 种维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原。

I kind of like to think of it as a safety net for my nutrition in case I've missed something in my diet.

我有点喜欢将其视为我的营养安全网，以防我在饮食中遗漏了某些东西。

Two, they treat AG1 like a software product.

第二，他们将 AG1 视为软件产品。

Apparently, they're on their 52nd iteration and they're constantly evolving it based on the latest science, research studies, and internal testing that they do.

显然，他们正在进行第 52 次迭代，并且根据最新的科学、研究和内部测试不断改进它。

And three, it's just one easy thing that I can do every single day to take care of myself.

第三，这只是我每天可以做的一件简单的事情来照顾自己。

Lenny: Right now it's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition.

莱尼：现在是时候恢复健康并用方便的日常营养来武装您的免疫系统了。

It's just one scoop and a cup of water every day, and that's it.

每天只要一勺一杯水就可以了。

There's no need for a million different pills and supplements to look out for your health.

无需使用一百万种不同的药物和补充剂来照顾您的健康。

To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase.

为了方便起见，Athletic Greens 将在您首次购买时为您提供一年免费的免疫支持维生素 D 和 5 个免费旅行套装。

All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/lenny.

您所要做的就是访问 sportsgreens.com/lenny。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/lenny.

再说一次，那就是athletinggreens.com/lenny。

Take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance.

掌控您的健康并购买终极每日营养保险。

Georgiana Laudi: Thanks so much for having me, Lenny.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：非常感谢你邀请我，莱尼。

Lenny: It's my pleasure.

莱尼：这是我的荣幸。

So we actually met over a decade ago, I think, maybe just around a decade in Montreal.

所以我想我们实际上是在十多年前认识的，也许就在蒙特利尔大约十年。

I was working on my startup.

我当时正在创业。

You were helping companies with their websites, optimize their websites.

您正在帮助公司建立网站，优化他们的网站。

Then you went on to lead marketing at Unbounce and a bunch of other great stuff.

然后你继续领导 Unbounce 的营销工作以及其他一些很棒的工作。

So just to set a little bit of foundation for listeners, can you talk about what you've done in your career in 55 seconds?

为了给听众打下基础，您能用 55 秒的时间谈谈您在职业生涯中做了什么吗？

That's your time box.

那是你的时间盒。

Georgiana Laudi: 55 seconds.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：55秒。

Okay.

好的。

So marketing for probably about 20 or so years, which sounds completely ridiculous when I say it, but I started working for my father's retail business in the early 2000s, probably 2000 actually.

所以营销可能有大约 20 年左右的时间，这听起来完全荒谬，但我在 2000 年代初开始为我父亲的零售业务工作，实际上可能是 2000 年。

Worked there for a number of years, and then eventually left and started freelancing, worked at an agency.

在那里工作了几年，然后最终离开并开始自由职业，在一家机构工作。

Terrible.

糟糕的。

And then actually probably around the time I met you, I had this little catalyst moment where I joined Twitter in late 2008, and I discovered the tech scene and startups.

实际上，大概就在我遇见你的时候，我在 2008 年底加入了 Twitter，发现了科技场景和初创公司。

And that was, again, probably around the time that you and I met, maybe 2010 ish.

再说一次，那可能是你和我认识的时候，也许是 2010 年左右。

And that was-

那是——

Georgiana Laudi: So it was right around that time, and then late 2011, I decided supporting five, six companies at a time in their marketing and stuff like that.

Georgiana Laudi：就在那个时候，然后是 2011 年末，我决定一次支持五、六家公司的营销等活动。

I was starting to get burnout, I was doing a lot, and I was like, "What would it feel like to sink my teeth into one brand?" So I decided to go in-house and I moved out west, and joined the team at Unbounce.

我开始精疲力尽，我做了很多事情，我想，“专注于一个品牌会是什么感觉？”所以我决定进入内部，然后搬到西部，加入了 Unbounce 的团队。

I was there for five years.

我在那里待了五年。

And then in late 2016, early 2017, I decided it was time to move on, and so I decided to go back independent and just started working with companies and supporting them through marketing and growth and product marketing.

然后在 2016 年底、2017 年初，我决定是时候继续前进了，所以我决定重新独立，开始与公司合作，通过营销、增长和产品营销来支持他们。

And that's what I've been doing ever since.

这就是我从那时起一直在做的事情。

Georgiana Laudi: But in mid 2017, I actually paired up with Claire Suellentrop who led marketing at Calendly, and her and I have been working together since about mid 2017.

Georgiana Laudi：但在 2017 年中期，我实际上与负责 Calendly 营销的 Claire Suellentrop 搭档，大约从 2017 年中期开始，我和她就一直在一起工作。

That's when we launched Forget The Funnel, and we started pairing up on working with companies and sort of married her customer research background in my strategy, marketing background.

就在那时，我们推出了“忘记漏斗”，我们开始与公司合作，并将她的客户研究背景与我的战略、营销背景结合起来。

And we developed this framework that we now use when we work with predominantly B2B SaaS companies, is who we work with right now.

我们开发了这个框架，现在我们与主要是 B2B SaaS 公司合作时使用该框架，这就是我们现在的合作伙伴。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So we're going to spend a lot of time on what you've learned working with companies through Forget The Funnel.

因此，我们将花费大量时间来了解您通过“忘记漏斗”与公司合作所学到的知识。

Why did you call it Forget The funnel?

为什么你称其为“忘记漏斗”？

Georgiana Laudi: Because funnels are gross.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：因为漏斗很恶心。

I mean, it's a really antiquated idea.

我的意思是，这是一个非常过时的想法。

It's not just funnels that we sort of take issue with, it's buyers' journeys or even...

我们所质疑的不仅仅是渠道，还有买家的旅程，甚至……

I remember actually at Startup Fest 2012, I want to say, Dave McClure was talking about pirate metrics and I was like, "Huzzah, marketing has a role post acquisition.

我记得实际上在 2012 年创业节上，我想说，戴夫·麦克卢尔 (Dave McClure) 正在谈论盗版指标，我当时想，“哈扎，营销在收购后发挥着作用。

Everybody understands now." It was a real moment for me.

现在大家都明白了。”这对我来说是一个真正的时刻。

But the problem with funnels and pirate metrics and the favorites that I love to pick on are MQLs and SQLs is that nobody knows what those mean.

但渠道和盗版指标以及我最喜欢选择的 MQL 和 SQL 的问题在于，没有人知道它们的含义。

It puts every customer in the same sort of buckets.

它将每个客户都放在同一类型的桶中。

It assumes that all customers and all products are the same.

它假设所有客户和所有产品都是相同的。

It puts businesses, or they, I should say, puts businesses at the center of the business versus putting customers at the center.

它将企业，或者我应该说，将企业置于业务的中心，而不是将客户置于中心。

It's about the values of the business, not the value to the customer that's being measured.

这是关于企业的价值，而不是所衡量的客户的价值。

Georgiana Laudi: Also, it just kind of feels gross for people, this idea of pushing people through a funnel.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：此外，这种将人们推向漏斗的想法对人们来说有点恶心。

And then probably a particularly relevant for SaaS companies is that recurring revenue businesses, you cannot think about marketing and growth and the business overall as ending at acquisition.

对于 SaaS 公司来说，可能特别相关的是经常性收入业务，你不能将营销和增长以及整体业务视为以收购结束。

Otherwise, you're not in business anymore.

否则，你就不再做生意了。

The vast, vast majority of these models don't take post-acquisition retention, expansion, all of that into account.

这些模型中的绝大多数都没有考虑收购后的保留、扩张，所有这些。

They also leave the problem stage out.

他们也将问题阶段排除在外。

So the world that customers are living in prior to discovering you, which is a really critical, that context is unbelievably valuable, especially for marketing.

因此，客户在发现您之前所生活的世界非常关键，这种背景非常有价值，尤其是对于营销而言。

So to delete that out of the equation is a big problem.

因此，将其从等式中删除是一个大问题。

So yeah, in a nutshell, funnels are bad.

所以，是的，简而言之，漏斗很糟糕。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So I'm excited to dig into a lot of stuff you've learned, but I have a couple other things I just wanted to talk about to set the foundation.

所以我很高兴能深入研究你们学到的很多东西，但我还有一些其他的事情想谈谈来奠定基础。

Lenny: One is, can you talk about some of the impact that you've seen working with companies through the process that you've come up with?

莱尼：一是，您能谈谈您在与公司合作过程中所看到的一些影响吗？

What kind of impact have you seen?

您看到了什么样的影响？

What kind of numbers have you seen?

你见过什么样的数字？

Georgiana Laudi: I would say, far in a way the biggest, most immediate impact of the type of work that we do is realigning with that ideal customer.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：我想说，在某种程度上，我们所做的工作类型最大、最直接的影响是与理想客户的重新调整。

Generally, the lowest hanging fruit outcome is realigning around better positioning and messaging.

一般来说，最容易实现的结果是围绕更好的定位和信息传递进行重新调整。

And identifying more resonant positioning and messaging that speaks to that context that I was talking about before, before people discover that you even exist, have that moment where they're like, "Oh my god, this has to change.

在人们发现你存在之前，确定更能引起共鸣的定位和信息，与我之前谈论的背景相呼应，有那么一刻他们会说：“天哪，这必须改变。

This sucks," ties that in, ties in what they care about and what is valuable about your product and then also that desired outcome.

这很糟糕”，将其与他们关心的内容、你的产品的价值以及期望的结果联系起来。

I mean, for those in the know, jobs to be done is a big sort of influence here, but if you can identify that type of information about your customers and get to know them at that level, then you are in a way better position to be able to not only position your product but also use much more powerful messaging.

我的意思是，对于那些了解情况的人来说，要做的工作在这里有很大的影响，但如果你能够识别有关你的客户的此类信息并在那个级别上了解他们，那么你就处于一个更好的位置，不仅能够定位你的产品，而且还能够使用更强大的消息传递。

Georgiana Laudi: So typically, what we do is, we'll identify those gaps of almost, I mean I shouldn't even say nine times out of 10, 99 times out of a hundred, a company's website is not doing as much as it could do.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：通常情况下，我们所做的是，我们会找出这些差距，我的意思是，我什至不应该说十之九、一百之九十九，一家公司的网站没有尽其所能。

It's not being as effective from a messaging and positioning standpoint as it could.

从消息传递和定位的角度来看，它并没有达到应有的效果。

So websites tend to get update.

所以网站往往会更新。

We will do a lot of overhauls on messaging on a website and improve performance there.

我们将对网站上的消息传递进行大量修改并提高其性能。

One of my favorite examples of that is a social media tool that we worked with where we did really very simple research for them, honestly, identified two different jobs to be done, zeroed in on one of them, and then updated the messaging on the website.

我最喜欢的例子之一是我们使用的社交媒体工具，我们为他们做了非常简单的研究，老实说，确定了两项不同的工作要做，专注于其中一项，然后更新网站上的消息。

Georgiana Laudi: We shortened the trial from 30 days to seven.

Georgiana Laudi：我们将审判时间从 30 天缩短到 7 天。

The conversion on the website went up with this new messaging by 89%.

这条新消息使网站转化率提高了 89%。

But the thing that I love the most about that particular story is that we didn't even touch anything after the signup experience.

但我最喜欢这个特定故事的一点是，在注册体验之后我们甚至没有碰过任何东西。

We hadn't even gotten there and the trial-to-paid conversion rate increased 40%, and we didn't touch it.

我们甚至还没有达到这个目标，试用到付费的转化率增加了 40%，但我们没有触及它。

It was just because a more qualified, better fit customer was coming through the door.

这只是因为一个更合格、更适合的客户进来了。

So there was more of them and there were better qualified.

因此，他们的人数更多，资质也更好。

So that's a really specific example that is very typical of this type of work.

这是一个非常具体的例子，是此类工作中非常典型的。

Georgiana Laudi: There's other examples, though, of product adoption and using that messaging and positioning past the website, even in the product onboarding itself, email and app, whatever, and just making sure that they're getting to and have the calms to get to the parts of the product that they care about the most, which can increase trial-to-paid or product activation.

Georgiana Laudi：不过，还有其他产品采用的例子，以及通过网站使用该消息传递和定位，甚至在产品入门本身、电子邮件和应用程序等方面，只要确保他们能够并平静地接触他们最关心的产品部分，这可以增加试用付费或产品激活。

With Autobooks, the product usage of the North Star product usage jumped by 300% or something within quite a short period of time after rolling out email onboarding to support that product experience.

借助 Autobooks，在推出电子邮件引导以支持产品体验后，North Star 产品的使用量在相当短的时间内跃升了 300% 左右。

I know SparkToro as well, which I think we might end up talking about again when we talk about the process, they doubled their trial-to-paid conversion rate when we worked with them because of post acquisition optimization to their messaging.

我也了解 SparkToro，我认为当我们谈论流程时，我们最终可能会再次谈论它，当我们与他们合作时，由于对他们的消息传递进行了收购后优化，他们的试用到付费转化率翻了一番。

Lenny: I imagine people are listening to this and they're like, "This is what I'm waiting for, some kind of huge win, some huge conversion, a success." I'm curious, how often do you find companies have something like this, like a latent opportunity to double, triple conversion?

莱尼：我想人们在听这个的时候他们会想，“这就是我在等待的，某种巨大的胜利，某种巨大的转变，一种成功。”我很好奇，你多久发现公司有这样的事情，比如双倍、三倍转化的潜在机会？

Everyone's hoping a conversion like this.

每个人都希望有这样的转变。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

What's the general hit rate?

一般命中率是多少？

Georgiana Laudi: So many.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：很多。

I mean I would say, pretty well every company we've ever worked with has...

我的意思是，我想说，我们合作过的每家公司都有......

Not pretty well.

不太好。

Every company we've ever worked with has learned something new about their customers that they can apply at some juncture of their customer's experience, whether or not it is in campaigns to reach the right people out in the world, whether or not it's doing a better job with their messaging and positioning on their website, or their go-to market or acquisition strategy on their website using a sandbox account or getting a faux freemium account to let people kick the tires of their product prior to getting on a sales call.

我们合作过的每家公司都从他们的客户中学到了一些新的东西，他们可以在客户体验的某个时刻应用这些东西，无论是在营销活动中接触到世界上合适的人，无论是在他们的网站上更好地传达信息和定位，还是在他们的网站上使用沙盒帐户或获得虚假免费增值帐户让人们在接到销售电话之前先试用他们的产品，以进入市场或获取策略。

That's something that could potentially happen.

这是有可能发生的事情。

Georgiana Laudi: The post-acquisition experience I'm talking about, it is so often an afterthought somehow where that additional of layer...

乔治亚娜·劳迪：我所说的收购后的经历，通常是事后的想法，不知何故，额外的层......

I think part of the reason why it's an afterthought is because product onboarding in particular, and you've probably heard this too, it tends to be kind of like no man's land.

我认为这是事后才想到的部分原因是因为特别是产品入门，你可能也听说过，它往往有点像无人区。

Who owns that?

谁拥有它？

Is it marketing?

是营销吗？

If it's freemium, in my opinion it should be marketing because freemium is a marketing tool, but not everybody subscribes to that.

如果是免费增值，我认为它应该是营销，因为免费增值是一种营销工具，但并不是每个人都认同这一点。

Not every company would necessarily agree that that's the case.

并非每家公司都一定同意这种情况。

A lot of companies might say, "No, it's product." So we end up seeing a messy middle there because there's no natural handoff.

很多公司可能会说：“不，这是产品。”所以我们最终会看到中间很混乱，因为没有自然的切换。

So pretty well, every company that we've worked with has had an opportunity to improve, especially product onboarding and product activation.

非常好，我们合作过的每家公司都有机会改进，特别是产品入门和产品激活。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So basically everybody will benefit from what we're about to talk about.

所以基本上每个人都会从我们即将讨论的内容中受益。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

We've got wrap detention as a way to maybe transition into your process.

我们有包裹拘留作为可能过渡到您的流程的一种方式。

So you're visiting a site once, and I invited you to the Airbnb office we were having a happy hour, and I gave you a tour.

你曾经访问过一个网站，我邀请你到 Airbnb 办公室，我们正在享受欢乐时光，我还带你参观了一下。

You told me later that something you saw while you're walking around the office transformed the way you think about growth and inform the way you think about approaching this problem.

你后来告诉我，你在办公室走来走去时看到的一些东西改变了你对增长的看法，并告诉你如何解决这个问题。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Georgiana Laudi: Yes.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：是的。

This is one of my favorite...

这是我最喜欢的之一...

It was 2013, so you and I might have met in 2011, and then a couple years later I was in town for a conference and we toured the office, HQ and everything.

那是 2013 年，所以你和我可能在 2011 年就认识了，几年后，我在城里参加一个会议，我们参观了办公室、总部和一切。

Of course, it was all stars in my eyes because what a beautiful office too.

当然，我眼中都是星星，因为办公室也很漂亮。

So it was quite like, I would've remembered it regardless.

所以就像是，无论如何我都会记住它。

But we went downstairs, very different from the very polished upstairs.

但我们下了楼，与楼上的光鲜亮丽的很不一样。

We went downstairs to where your working area was, where the product team was, and there were sheets of paper taped to the wall, a bunch in a row.

我们下楼到你们的工作区、产品团队所在的地方，墙上贴着几张纸，一排排的。

And it would've been easy to miss because it's kind of chaotic down there, but it was the customer journey of an Airbnb customer through two posts.

这很容易被错过，因为那里有点混乱，但这是 Airbnb 客户通过两个帖子的客户旅程。

Georgiana Laudi: What struck me, I was like, "Oh that's interesting.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：令我震惊的是，我当时想，“哦，这很有趣。

I'm in the middle of building one out for us." Leading marketing at Unbounce at the time.

我正在为我们建造一个。”当时在 Unbounce 负责营销工作。

And I was interestingly with the customer success, he was also with me.

有趣的是，我对客户的成功很感兴趣，他也和我在一起。

So Ryan Engley was there with me, and it was the perfect sort of that him and I saw it together.

所以瑞恩·恩格利和我在一起，他和我一起看到了这一切，这是完美的。

It was a customer journey that was focused on the customer.

这是一个以客户为中心的客户旅程。

So versus that pirate metrics problem or that the typical buyer's journey problem that I was talking about earlier, it was the complete reverse of that.

因此，与我之前讨论的盗版指标问题或典型的买家旅程问题相比，情况完全相反。

It was illustrated.

对此进行了说明。

The emotional journey was part of it.

情感之旅是其中的一部分。

The role that Airbnb played as a direct touchpoint and also indirect, what was going on in the person's life that had nothing to do outside of Airbnb, which I thought was really interesting.

Airbnb 扮演了一个直接接触点和间接接触点的角色，人们的生活中发生了一些与 Airbnb 无关的事情，我认为这真的很有趣。

Georgiana Laudi: It was like, the beautiful little milestones really encapsulated in a sort of snapshot way, such that anybody walking by it or anybody being reminded that it existed could understand in a glance what the goal was at each of those milestones.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：就像，美丽的小里程碑确实以一种快照的方式封装起来，这样任何走过它的人或任何被提醒它存在的人都可以一眼就明白每个里程碑的目标是什么。

I was like, "Well, shit, this is completely through the lens of the customer versus the business and the grossness of the funnel." It's just so far removed from that experience that I was like, "Ryan, look at this.

我当时想，“好吧，该死，这完全是通过客户与业务以及渠道的粗糙性来看待的。”这与那次经历相去甚远，我当时想，“瑞恩，看看这个。

We need this." He was like, "Oh yeah, this is good." I took a picture.

我们需要这个。”他说：“哦，是的，这很好。”我拍了一张照片。

Can't find it for the life of me.

我找了一辈子都找不到。

Georgiana Laudi: But we returned back to the office the following week, and co-founder and head of product, head of CS, so Ryan, Carter Gilchrist, who's head of product and co-founder, Ryan, and I, head of marketing, the three of us locked ourselves in the room for two days and made our own.

Georgiana Laudi：但是我们在接下来的一周回到了办公室，联合创始人兼产品主管、CS 主管，所以 Ryan、产品主管兼联合创始人 Carter Gilchrist、Ryan 和我，营销主管，我们三个人把自己锁在房间里两天，自己做了。

It was a circle.

这是一个圆圈。

I mean looking back, it's hysterical, but it was sort of democratized to the rest of the team in a way because it had that buy-in.

我的意思是回想起来，这有点歇斯底里，但在某种程度上，它对团队其他成员来说是民主化的，因为它得到了支持。

Everybody was like, "Oh yeah.

每个人都说：“哦，是的。

Okay, this makes sense and I understand." It made everybody feel a lot better about what they were doing because it was about value, delivering value at each of the points.

好吧，这是有道理的，我明白。”这让每个人都对自己所做的事情感觉好多了，因为这关乎价值，在每个点上交付价值。

Georgiana Laudi: So that grossness sort of goes away and we're like, "Oh cool." I don't want to be too kumbaya about it, but it was a bit of a moment.

乔治亚娜·劳迪（Georgiana Laudi）：这样，那种粗俗感就消失了，我们会说，“哦，太酷了。”我不想对此太过愤怒，但这确实是一个时刻。

And also, it made communicating with especially the product team and the engineering team a lot easier for me.

而且，它使我与产品团队和工程团队的沟通变得更加容易。

So we were using a shared language.

所以我们使用共同的语言。

The rest of the company who aren't necessarily customer facing really understood, I think, at a different level what we were all doing together in KPIs, yada yada yada.

我认为，公司其他不一定面向客户的人员在不同层面上真正理解我们在 KPI 中共同所做的事情，yada yada yada。

So it was amazing.

所以这太棒了。

Honestly, I mean I can't credit only that obviously to our growth, but it was a pretty impressive couple years that followed that.

老实说，我的意思是我不能仅仅将这一点归功于我们的增长，但随后的几年是令人印象深刻的。

I think the alignment that that brought us was huge.

我认为这给我们带来了巨大的一致性。

Yeah.

是的。

Anyway, that's the story.

无论如何，这就是故事。

Sorry, that wasn't super short, but it was big.

抱歉，那不是很短，但很大。

Lenny: We're going to link pictures of this on the show notes.

莱尼：我们将在演出笔记中链接此图片。

Internally, it was called Project Snow White because it was inspired by-

在内部，它被称为“白雪公主计划”，因为它的灵感来自-

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

It was inspired by Brian reading the biography of Walt Disney, and they needed to create the storyboard basically to create Snow White because it was so complicated to make that movie.

它的灵感来自于布莱恩阅读华特·迪士尼传记，他们基本上需要创建故事板来创作白雪公主，因为制作这部电影非常复杂。

It might have been the first animated film with storyboards.

这可能是第一部带有故事板的动画电影。

Lenny: So it was basically a storyboard of a trip on Airbnb of a host and a guest.

Lenny：所以这基本上是一个房东和房客在 Airbnb 上旅行的故事板。

Lenny: And in detail, I forget if I told you this, but Airbnb hired a full-time storyboard artist from Pixar to draw these key frames.

莱尼：具体来说，我忘了我是否告诉过你这一点，但 Airbnb 聘请了皮克斯的全职故事板艺术家来绘制这些关键帧。

Georgiana Laudi: I think I did know that.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：我想我确实知道这一点。

I was very grateful to have seen it.

我很感激能看到它。

I didn't realize at the time, but it changed the way, like you said at the beginning, it changed the way that I thought about marketing because it really made it obvious to not only me, of course, and to everybody, that customer experience layer, that marketers are so good at, has such an incredibly important role in driving revenue.

我当时没有意识到，但它改变了方式，就像你一开始说的那样，它改变了我对营销的思考方式，因为它确实不仅对我来说，而且对每个人来说都显而易见，营销人员所擅长的客户体验层在推动收入方面具有非常重要的作用。

Not just in building awareness, but in playing a major role in helping customers get value and catching them when they fall off and all that kind of stuff.

不仅是在建立意识方面，而且在帮助客户获得价值并在他们跌倒时抓住他们等方面发挥重要作用。

So it changed a lot for us.

所以这对我们来说改变了很多。

Lenny: And it informed the way that you approach your consultancy with Forget The funnel.

莱尼：它告诉你如何通过忘记漏斗来进行咨询。

So as a transition to talk about that, the way I'm thinking we approach this is, imagine a customer, what is the process you go through?

因此，作为谈论这个问题的过渡，我认为我们处理这个问题的方式是，想象一下客户，您经历的流程是什么？

What are the steps?

步骤是什么？

How do you go about helping a company figure out where they should invest, what they're doing right and wrong?

你如何帮助公司弄清楚他们应该在哪里投资，他们的做法正确和错误？

I should also mention you're writing a book about this that's going to explain this whole process, that's coming out later in the year.

我还应该提到您正在写一本关于此的书，该书将解释整个过程，该书将于今年晚些时候出版。

Lenny: So we'll talk about that at the end as well.

莱尼：所以我们也会在最后讨论这个问题。

I'll turn over to you.

我会交给你。

Georgiana Laudi: Cool.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：酷。

I mean if I go down a rabbit hole and you want to pull me out and have me unpack something, let me know.

我的意思是，如果我掉进了兔子洞，而你想把我拉出来并让我打开一些东西，请告诉我。

Well, the process is pretty straightforward.

嗯，这个过程非常简单。

At the highest level, the idea is, understand your best customers, map their experience, like we were just talking about, map their experience through the lens of delivering value to them, make it measurable, and then evaluate what you're doing today that is out of alignment with that.

在最高层面上，我们的想法是，了解你最好的客户，绘制他们的体验，就像我们刚才讨论的那样，通过向他们提供价值的角度绘制他们的体验，使其可衡量，然后评估你今天所做的与此不相符的事情。

Pretty straightforward.

非常简单。

I mean that doesn't sound too hard of a job, of course.

当然，我的意思是，这听起来并不是一项太难的工作。

But research is an really important part of that.

但研究是其中非常重要的一部分。

So the story that I was going to use to illustrate this is, there's a company that we work with from time to time.

所以我要用这个故事来说明这一点，我们不时与一家公司合作。

We worked with them at least twice, arguably three times.

我们与他们合作了至少两次，可以说是三次。

Georgiana Laudi: So Rand Fishkin who was the founder of Moz, he's got a new product.

Georgiana Laudi：Moz 的创始人兰德·菲什金 (Rand Fishkin) 推出了一款新产品。

It's an audience research tool called SparkToro.

这是一个名为 SparkToro 的受众研究工具。

And when they first launched, actually even pre-launched, Rand and Casey came to Claire and I to help with their positioning and messaging as they were going forward to launch.

当他们第一次推出时，实际上甚至是预先推出时，兰德和凯西来找克莱尔和我，帮助他们在即将推出时进行定位和传达信息。

I mean Rand and Casey, they're both very, very thoughtful and they take their time with stuff.

我的意思是兰德和凯西，他们都非常非常体贴，而且他们花时间做事。

So they were just looking for that extra layer of like, "Is this good enough to launch kind of thing?" So we help them with their positioning and messaging.

所以他们只是在寻找额外的一层，比如“这是否足以推出某种东西？”因此，我们帮助他们定位和传达信息。

And off they went.

他们就出发了。

Georgiana Laudi: About a year later, they came back because though they were doing a decent job generating traffic and interest in SparkToro, I mean Rand is no small fish so he's got a good audience built in, which is fantastic, but those that were getting to the website...

Georgiana Laudi：大约一年后，他们回来了，因为尽管他们在为 SparkToro 带来流量和兴趣方面做得不错，但我的意思是 Rand 不是小鱼，所以他拥有很好的内置受众，这非常棒，但是那些访问该网站的人......

Those that were signing up for the product, those weren't issues.

对于那些注册该产品的人来说，这些都不是问题。

But the people that were signing up for their free product weren't converting to paid in the way that they believed they could.

但那些注册免费产品的人并没有像他们认为的那样转变为付费产品。

So we decided to work with them and basically go to the source and find out, from SparkToro's best customers, what can we learn from them that we can then reflect back in the product experience and the customer experience for them?

因此，我们决定与他们合作，基本上从 SparkToro 的最佳客户那里找出源头，我们可以从他们那里学到什么，然后我们可以反映在他们的产品体验和客户体验中？

Georgiana Laudi: So I mentioned it before, but we are heavy believers in the jobs-to-be-done theory, which is basically this idea that people don't buy your product, they buy the better version of themselves, yada yada.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：所以我之前提到过，但我们坚信“待完成的工作”理论，该理论基本上是这样的想法：人们不会购买你的产品，他们会购买更好的自己版本，yada yada。

I don't need to explain any of that.

我不需要解释任何这些。

But we use that to guide our research.

但我们用它来指导我们的研究。

And with SparkToro, we were in a position, and the purists will hate me saying this, but we were in a position to be able to run surveys.

通过 SparkToro，我们处于一个有利的位置，纯粹主义者会讨厌我这么说，但我们处于能够进行调查的位置。

So yes, interviews are ideal always, but we did think that we could learn a ton from surveys to then, if needed, double down with interviews.

所以，是的，采访总是理想的，但我们确实认为我们可以从调查中学到很多东西，然后，如果需要的话，可以加倍采访。

We didn't end up actually needing to run the interviews because the surface that we ran were pretty decisive and clear in terms of what we learned.

我们最终实际上并不需要进行采访，因为就我们所了解到的情况而言，我们进行的表面相当明确且清晰。

So what we did was, we identified SparkToro's best customers.

所以我们所做的是，我们确定了 SparkToro 的最佳客户。

Now, what I mean by best customers is those that get a ton of value from your product as of exist today, pay obviously.

现在，我所说的最佳客户是那些从你的产品中获得大量价值的客户，他们显然会付费。

They're happy.

他们很高兴。

They're low maintenance.

它们的维护成本低。

And very importantly, they signed up for your product recently enough that they remember what life was like before.

非常重要的是，他们最近注册了你的产品，以至于他们记得以前的生活是什么样的。

Georgiana Laudi: So generally, we say that's in the three to six-month range.

Georgiana Laudi：一般来说，我们说的是三到六个月的范围。

Because if you go to somebody that's been your customer for two years, they're just going to fill answers with what they think might have been going on in their life.

因为如果你去找一个已经是你两年客户的人，他们只会用他们认为生活中可能发生的事情来填写答案。

But if you ask customers who remember what life was like before, you're going to get a lot more interesting responses, a lot more accurate depiction of what was going on.

但如果你问那些记得以前生活是什么样子的顾客，你会得到更有趣的回答，对正在发生的事情有更准确的描述。

So that's the criteria we went forward.

这就是我们前进的标准。

Surveyed their customers.

调查了他们的客户。

We're trying to uncover from them what was going on in their life when they were seeking out a solution, what happened, what was that trigger moment when they did start seeking a solution, what did they go to, who did they talk with, what were their influences?

我们试图向他们揭示当他们寻求解决方案时他们的生活中发生了什么，发生了什么，当他们开始寻求解决方案时的触发时刻是什么，他们去了哪里，他们与谁交谈，他们的影响是什么？

Which PS, that's what SparkToro does, it helps you identify those.

其中 PS，这就是 SparkToro 所做的，它可以帮助您识别这些。

Georgiana Laudi: But also, what were they looking for in a solution?

Georgiana Laudi：而且，他们在寻找什么解决方案？

What were the must-haves for them versus what were some of the anxieties that they had, some deal breakers, things like that?

他们必须拥有什么，而他们有哪些焦虑，一些破坏交易的事情，诸如此类的事情？

So basically unpacking what is it that was critical for them in their solution.

所以基本上解开他们的解决方案中对他们来说至关重要的是什么。

And then of course, what is it they're able to do now that they weren't able to do before.

当然，他们现在能够做哪些以前无法做到的事情。

So that desired outcome.

这样就达到了想要的结果。

So out of that, we identified a couple of different options, a couple of different jobs, customer jobs, and we have to prioritize one, of course, because if you start right off the bat with like, "Okay, we're going to solve for all of these different customers jobs," then you end up not being as resonant.

因此，我们确定了几种不同的选择，几种不同的工作，客户工作，当然，我们必须优先考虑其中一个，因为如果你一开始就说，“好吧，我们将解决所有这些不同客户的工作”，那么你最终不会引起共鸣。

You can't be as effective.

你不可能那么有效。

So we focused in on one.

所以我们专注于其中之一。

Georgiana Laudi: And the way that you make a decision on which one you focus on is similar to best customers.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：决定关注哪个客户的方式与最佳客户类似。

So high willingness to pay.

支付意愿如此之高。

There's no question whether or not they would pay for a product like yours.

毫无疑问，他们是否愿意为像您这样的产品付费。

The handholding that they would need would be minor or less so.

他们所需要的帮助将是次要的或更少的。

And I say that understanding full well the difference between product-led and sales-led.

我说要充分理解以产品为主导和以销售为主导之间的区别。

I'm not saying that sales-led is not good, but sometimes there's a decision to be made.

我并不是说以销售为主导不好，但有时需要做出决定。

If you're not set up today to support a sales-led or high touch, then you may want to opt for the more product-led approach.

如果您现在还没有准备好支持以销售为主导的或高接触的方式，那么您可能需要选择更多以产品为主导的方法。

And the reverse is also true if you've got a robust sales team, well then, you might actually be better off leveraging sales more in that scenario and might want to attend towards that.

反之亦然，如果您拥有一支强大的销售团队，那么，在这种情况下，您实际上可能会更好地利用销售，并且可能希望参与其中。

But there's that criteria that you would think through.

但你需要考虑这个标准。

Georgiana Laudi: So willingness to pay, it's really obvious.

Georgiana Laudi：支付意愿非常明显。

Maybe the most important one is that they have an urgent problem.

也许最重要的是他们有一个紧迫的问题。

So the whole pain killer versus vitamin thing, you always want to be selling a pain killer.

因此，在止痛药与维生素的比较中，你总是想销售止痛药。

So who has an urgent problem that needs solving, not something that they might have a problem with six months down the line?

那么谁有一个需要解决的紧急问题，而不是六个月后可能出现的问题呢？

Who has a high retention or even expansion potential is also really advantageous for very obvious reasons.

出于非常明显的原因，具有高保留甚至扩展潜力的人也确实具有优势。

So customers who would have a long-term need for this type of product and even potentially have that need expand or change over time and evolve in ways that you envision the product can help them.

因此，对此类产品有长期需求，甚至可能有这种需求的客户会随着时间的推移而扩展或改变，并以您设想的产品可以帮助他们的方式发展。

Georgiana Laudi: And then there's other criteria too.

Georgiana Laudi：还有其他标准。

So sometimes you might want to prioritize one customer job over another, if those customers congregate in a way that make them really easy to market to.

因此，有时您可能希望将一项客户工作优先于另一项工作，如果这些客户以一种非常容易推销的方式聚集在一起。

That's an advantage.

这是一个优势。

Or another advantage, and this was the case for SparkToro, is you have an unfair advantage with this market in some way.

或者另一个优势，SparkToro 的情况就是这样，就是你在这个市场上以某种方式拥有不公平的优势。

So there were two different customer jobs that were coming out of SparkToro.

SparkToro 提供了两种不同的客户工作。

One was more focused on service providers and marketing and the other one was more focused on data.

一种更关注服务提供商和营销，另一种更关注数据。

And those data purists and those that really wanted verifiable data, well, SparkToro has an advantage on the marketer side more so than on the data analyst side.

对于那些数据纯粹主义者和那些真正想要可验证数据的人来说，SparkToro 在营销人员方面比在数据分析师方面更有优势。

So that was another thing too.

所以那也是另一回事了。

So with that, we made the call to focus on one of those customer jobs.

因此，我们决定重点关注其中一项客户工作。

Lenny: So there's two parts of this.

莱尼：所以这有两个部分。

There's figuring out who you're going to go after and then what problem you're solving for them.

弄清楚你要去找谁，然后为他们解决什么问题。

Which do you think is more important at this point?

您认为此时此刻哪个更重要？

Because step one in this process, just to zoom out a little bit, is figure out your customer and what their problems are so that you can actually solve them well.

因为这个过程的第一步，只是稍微缩小一点，就是弄清楚你的客户以及他们的问题是什么，这样你才能真正很好地解决它们。

Do you start with here's who we're going to go after and then here's the biggest problem?

你是否从我们要追捕的人开始，然后这是最大的问题？

How do you think about that?

您对此有何看法？

Georgiana Laudi: They're sort of one in the same.

Georgiana Laudi：他们是同一个人。

So because we learned from SparkToro's ideal customers, we already know that they're a fit for the product.

因此，由于我们从 SparkToro 的理想客户那里了解到，我们已经知道他们适合该产品。

They're happy, happily paying, prime them out of their golden hands customers.

他们很高兴，很乐意付钱，把他们从金手客户手中抢走。

They're the customers that we want more of.

他们是我们想要更多的客户。

So we've already validated that there's a demand from that customer base.

因此，我们已经验证了该客户群的需求。

Now, what I'm describing about choosing between two different customer jobs is really just, of those ideal customers, which customer job do you want to lean into?

现在，我所描述的关于在两个不同的客户工作之间进行选择的内容实际上只是，在那些理想的客户中，您想倾向于哪一个客户工作？

It's not that you wouldn't necessarily still be able to solve for that other customer job, it's just not the one that you would lead with.

这并不是说您不一定仍然能够解决其他客户的工作，只是这不是您将领导的工作。

And I always cautious around this too because sometimes with founders, what'll happen is, there's a level set that just because we were prioritizing one customer job in the short term, doesn't mean you can't serve that other customer job down the line.

我对此也总是持谨慎态度，因为有时对于创始人来说，会发生的情况是，有一个水平设置，仅仅因为我们在短期内优先考虑一项客户工作，并不意味着你不能为其他客户工作提供服务。

Georgiana Laudi: A classic example of that is products that serve both brands and agencies for example.

Georgiana Laudi：一个典型的例子是为品牌和代理商提供服务的产品。

So the customer job for brands will be slightly different than agencies.

因此，品牌的客户工作将与代理商略有不同。

And if you've got an advantage with one, you would just start with one and then you would go back after it.

如果你在其中一项上有优势，你就会从一项开始，然后再回去。

That's a bit of a level up after the fact.

事后看来，这个水平有点高了。

It's not part of the core processes, it's what you would do after.

它不是核心流程的一部分，而是您之后要做的事情。

But it doesn't mean you can't solve for the other customer jobs, it just means put one foot in front of the other, do a really good job of one thing first, and then we'll add that on later.

但这并不意味着你不能解决其他客户的工作，它只是意味着先把一只脚放在另一只脚前面，先把一件事做好，然后我们再把它添加进去。

I don't know if that a hundred percent answered your question though.

我不知道这是否百分百回答了你的问题。

Lenny: The reason that you start here is...

莱尼：你从这里开始的原因是……

Basically what you're trying to do is help SparkToro, in this example, grow faster.

基本上，您想要做的就是帮助 SparkToro（在此示例中）更快成长。

Georgiana Laudi: I mean we're trying to help them figure out why they're free-to-paid conversion rate was lower than what they wanted.

Georgiana Laudi：我的意思是，我们正在努力帮助他们弄清楚为什么免费到付费的转化率低于他们想要的。

Right?

正确的？

That was the challenge they came to us with.

这就是他们给我们带来的挑战。

Our traffic numbers are good.

我们的客流量很好。

Even our signups on our website, our positioning and messaging on our website is clearly doing a good job.

即使我们在网站上的注册、我们网站上的定位和消息传递显然都做得很好。

But once people get into the product, there's not enough of them getting to value quickly enough.

但一旦人们开始使用该产品，就没有足够多的人足够快地获得价值。

I mean they still had healthy customer base, but they knew that that number could be increased.

我的意思是他们仍然拥有健康的客户群，但他们知道这个数字可以增加。

So we knew what we were solving for.

所以我们知道我们要解决什么问题。

Lenny: So step one here is figure out who do you want to focus on, not just...

莱尼：所以第一步是弄清楚你想关注谁，而不仅仅是......

Because a lot of people would go at this problem like, "Okay, conversion is whatever, 10%, how do we increase?

因为很多人会遇到这个问题，比如“好吧，转化率就是 10%，我们如何提高转化率？

Let's look at this data.

我们来看看这个数据。

Let's look at it.

我们来看一下。

They're bouncing.

他们在弹跳。

Let's look at why people are confused." And your approach is, "No, let's focus on the people we really want to get into this product and focus on making them convert, and not focus as much on the general case of conversion."

让我们看看为什么人们会感到困惑。”你的方法是，“不，让我们专注于我们真正想要进入这个产品的人，并专注于让他们转化，而不是过多关注一般的转化情况。”

Georgiana Laudi: Right.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：对。

We would get to that though.

不过我们会做到这一点。

That's a really important part of the process, but it comes after figuring out who you're even solving for.

这是这个过程中非常重要的一部分，但它是在弄清楚你要为谁解决问题之后进行的。

But it's definitely important to look at those numbers.

但看看这些数字绝对很重要。

I mean, I'm not saying don't look at the data.

我的意思是，我并不是说不要看数据。

Obviously you have to.

显然你必须这样做。

They wouldn't have identified a problem had they not been looking at the data.

如果他们没有查看数据，他们就不会发现问题。

So the challenge that happened so, so often, and I mean this happens with a lot of teams, particularly marketers fall victim to this tactical way of approaching things and piecemealing things, piecemealing campaigns or programs to prove that we're doing something and we're driving up numbers, and they don't take big enough sort of swings.

因此，经常发生的挑战，我的意思是，这种情况发生在很多团队中，尤其是营销人员，他们成为这种处理事情和零碎事情、零碎活动或计划的战术方式的受害者，以证明我们正在做某事并且我们正在提高数字，但他们没有采取足够大的波动。

So this is like, zoom out for a second, figure out who is it that you even want coming through the front door.

所以这就像，缩小一秒钟，找出你想要从前门进来的人是谁。

I mean, the social media platform tool that I mentioned, the trial-to-pay conversion rate bumped up 40% because a higher qualified person comes through the front door.

我的意思是，我提到的社交媒体平台工具，试用到付费的转化率上升了 40%，因为更高素质的人进来了。

So it matters.

所以这很重要。

Georgiana Laudi: So if you can zoom out and keep in your mind's eye that ideal customer job, that thing that you're solving for.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：所以，如果你能缩小范围，并牢记理想的客户工作，即你正在解决的问题。

We're not at personas.

我们不是在人物角色。

We don't care about personas at all.

我们根本不关心角色。

They're important when you start talking about advertising and targeting and that demographic data that you have to know when you're doing advertising and things like that.

当您开始谈论广告和定位以及您在做广告和类似事情时必须了解的人口统计数据时，它们很重要。

That is not what I'm describing here at all.

这根本不是我在这里描述的。

I find that jobs be done too helps tie and bond marketing and product and customer success together a lot more because all three of those teams, or arguably four with sales, should all be focused on this theme customer that's not revolutionary.

我发现完成工作也有助于将营销、产品和客户成功更多地联系在一起，因为所有这三个团队，或者可以说是四个销售团队，都应该专注于这个不是革命性的主题客户。

So this is just a sort of helpful way to do that.

所以这只是一种有用的方法。

Georgiana Laudi: Product teams know and subscribe for the most part to the jobs-to-be-done theory.

Georgiana Laudi：产品团队了解并认同大部分工作待完成理论。

So marketers should follow suit, and there's a lot to be gained anyway on the marketing side.

因此营销人员应该效仿，无论如何在营销方面都有很多收获。

So anyway, the short of it basically is that because we knew we were focused on increasing that free-to-pay conversion rate, the next step after the job is the mapping.

所以无论如何，它的缺点基本上是，因为我们知道我们的重点是提高免费到付费的转化率，所以工作之后的下一步就是映射。

So it's identifying, okay, for this ideal customer, what are those key milestones in their relationship with our product?

因此，对于这个理想的客户来说，确定他们与我们产品的关系中的关键里程碑是什么？

What are those big of leaps of faith is how I describe it.

我是这么描述的，什么是信仰的巨大飞跃。

I mean I don't need to explain.

我的意思是我不需要解释。

The Airbnb customer journey tells that story.

Airbnb 的客户旅程讲述了这个故事。

Where's a value moment in this relationship?

这段关系的价值时刻在哪里？

Where are they reaching value?

他们在哪里实现价值？

Lenny: Make some examples of that for folks that are trying to do this for themselves potentially.

莱尼：为那些可能尝试为自己做这件事的人举一些例子。

And then also, how many of these moments would you suggest people have?

然后，您建议人们有多少这样的时刻？

Georgiana Laudi: Yeah.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：是的。

So it completely depends on the product and the customer for that matter.

因此，这完全取决于产品和客户。

I shouldn't leave that part over it.

我不应该把那部分留在上面。

Obviously that's important.

显然这很重要。

In general though, what we would do is, we'd break it down into a struggle phase and evaluation phase and a growth phase.

但总的来说，我们要做的是，将其分为奋斗阶段、评估阶段和成长阶段。

Struggle phase is, they're experiencing the problem, life sucks, they're using the old way, something's got to happen, they've got to solve this thing.

挣扎阶段是，他们正在经历问题，生活很糟糕，他们正在使用旧的方式，一定会发生一些事情，他们必须解决这个问题。

In general, the struggle phase would break down between out in the world experiencing the problem for the first time.

一般来说，斗争阶段会在第一次遇到这个问题的人之间结束。

So we call that a problem.

所以我们称之为问题。

And generally there would be another one called interest, where it's like, "Okay, now they're starting to shop around.

一般来说，还有另一种叫做兴趣，就像，“好吧，现在他们开始货比三家。

They're getting into solution seeking mode." They might be on your website.

他们正在进入寻求解决方案的模式。”它们可能在您的网站上。

They might be on your competitor's websites.

它们可能位于您竞争对手的网站上。

They're reading product reviews, things like that.

他们正在阅读产品评论之类的东西。

That's interest stage.

这就是兴趣阶段。

Georgiana Laudi: And then there's the evaluation phase, which generally breaks down, I will say two or three milestones within the evaluation phase.

乔治安娜·劳迪：然后是评估阶段，该阶段通常会崩溃，我会说评估阶段内有两个或三个里程碑。

I say two or three because if you have a more complex product, more complex customer is the more likely scenario.

我说两个或三个是因为如果你有更复杂的产品，更可能出现更复杂的客户。

There may be more leaps of faith or more milestones, heavier lift for you to take.

可能会有更多的信念飞跃或更多的里程碑，需要你承担更重的提升。

So we have worked with companies where the evaluation phase has been three or four milestones, I would always default to as few as possible.

因此，我们与评估阶段具有三四个里程碑的公司合作，我总是默认尽可能少的里程碑。

So if I'm cutting it down to lowest common denominator, I would say a first value would be the first milestone within evaluation.

因此，如果我将其减少到最低公分母，我会说第一个值将是评估中的第一个里程碑。

So you want to get them to that product activation really, really quickly.

所以你想让他们非常非常快地激活产品。

And then value realization is the milestone where you're solving that customer job.

然后价值实现就是您解决客户工作的里程碑。

So they reach a point with your product where they're like, "Hell yes, this is it." And for the first time, they reach this critical threshold of product engagement.

因此，他们对你的产品达到了一个临界点，他们会说，“天啊，是的，就是这样。”他们第一次达到了产品参与度的这一关键门槛。

Now, what that product engagement is with your unique product for that specific customer is up for debate, but there still needs to be that moment.

现在，针对特定客户的独特产品的产品参与度还有待争论，但仍然需要那个时刻。

Georgiana Laudi: And then there's the growth phase, which is about the continued value.

Georgiana Laudi：然后是增长阶段，即持续价值。

So getting to frequency of usage and a healthy building of that habit, getting into a cadence that makes sense.

因此，了解使用频率并健康地养成这种习惯，进入有意义的节奏。

What type of feature usage and end product usage should you want to see there and then on what frequency becomes really important.

您希望在那里看到什么类型的功能使用情况和最终产品使用情况以及什么频率变得非常重要。

And then there's another milestone generally after that where you're like, "Okay cool, they're in.

然后通常还有另一个里程碑，你会说，“好吧，酷，他们进来了。

They're pro.

他们是职业选手。

Now, what else do they need?" What else do they need from a product?

现在，他们还需要什么？”他们还需要从产品中得到什么？

And also, how else can we amplify them or work with them to either start teaching our tool to other people?

而且，我们还能如何扩大它们或与它们合作，开始向其他人教授我们的工具？

I mean there's all kinds of things that can happen about growth.

我的意思是，成长过程中可能会发生各种各样的事情。

That's where the promise that exponential growth assess sort of comes into play.

这就是指数增长评估的承诺发挥作用的地方。

Lenny: And as people listen to this, just to maybe help if it's not super obvious, what people shouldn't imagine is like a little key frame, a storyboard frame of like, "Here's something your customer is doing." Right?

莱尼：当人们听到这个时，如果它不是非常明显的话，也许会有所帮助，人们不应该想象像一个小关键帧，一个故事板框架，“这是你的客户正在做的事情。”正确的？

Georgiana Laudi: Yeah.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：是的。

We often talk about it and describe it as the story of how I met and fell in love with your product.

我们经常谈论它，并将其描述为我如何遇见并爱上你们产品的故事。

It's like this documentary of being out in the world, finding it, realizing that like, "Hell yeah, this might actually solve a problem for us.

就像一部纪录片，讲述的是走出去的世界，发现它，意识到，“天哪，这实际上可能为我们解决一个问题。

This might be it." Getting that enough value to convince them to keep going to full value realization, to continue value-to-value growth.

可能就是这个了。”获得足够的价值来说服他们继续全面实现价值，继续实现价值增长。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Maven.

莱尼：这一集是由 Maven 为您带来的。

I've been an investor, an advisor, and a customer of Maven from day one.

从第一天起，我就是 Maven 的投资者、顾问和客户。

I even taught my product management course through Maven.

我什至通过 Maven 教授我的产品管理课程。

Maven is a cohort-based learning platform where you learn alongside peers with a direct connection to your instructor.

Maven 是一个基于队列的学习平台，您可以与同伴一起学习，并直接与讲师联系。

Maven got a ton of courses for product managers, founders, and executives to help them level up in all kinds of ways.

Maven 为产品经理、创始人和高管提供了大量课程，帮助他们以各种方式提升水平。

Over 10,000 people from Airbnb to Coinbase to Google to Tesla have taken courses from real experts and operators that have spent decades honing their craft.

从 Airbnb 到 Coinbase、Google、Tesla，超过 10,000 名员工已经接受了真正的专家和运营商的课程，他们花了几十年的时间磨练自己的技术。

Lenny: As part of their fall season, which Maven just launched, there are over 100 new courses starting in the next few weeks.

Lenny：作为 Maven 刚刚推出的秋季课程的一部分，在接下来的几周内将开设 100 多门新课程。

Many of the people I've had on this podcast are teaching courses like Jackie Bavaro on product strategy, Arielle Jackson on startup branding, Emily Kramer on B2B marketing, plus Annie Duke on decision making, Nir Eyal on behavioral design, and how to break into product management with Marily Nika.

我在这个播客中遇到的许多人都在教授课程，比如 Jackie Bavaro 教授产品策略、Arielle Jackson 教授初创品牌、Emily Kramer 教授 B2B 营销、Annie Duke 教授决策、Nir Eyal 教授行为设计，以及如何与 Marily Nika 一起进入产品管理领域。

Check out all of my favorite courses and learn more at maven.com/lenny.

在 maven.com/lenny 上查看我最喜欢的所有课程并了解更多信息。

Georgiana Laudi: Now, again, I'm saying that as if it applies to all customers and products, and that's not actually the case.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：现在，我再说一遍，好像它适用于所有客户和产品，但实际情况并非如此。

Sometimes it's more complicated than that, but in general, that is what we have found.

有时情况比这更复杂，但总的来说，这就是我们发现的。

So that's what we did for SparkToro customers based on the research that we did.

这就是我们根据我们所做的研究为 SparkToro 客户所做的事情。

The research that we do, we basically take all the responses, we identify the critical patterns, and that's how we identify the customer job.

我们所做的研究，基本上会收集所有的回复，确定关键模式，这就是我们确定客户工作的方式。

From those critical patterns, if we segment down just that customer job, we can look at responses and say, "Okay, here's what they're likely doing when they're out in the world experiencing this problem.

从这些关键模式中，如果我们只细分客户的工作，我们可以查看回复并说：“好吧，这就是他们在遇到这个问题时可能会做的事情。

This is how they described the pain of their current solution.

他们是这样描述当前解决方案的痛苦的。

And then here's what they say about how their search for a solution started.

以下是他们如何开始寻找解决方案的。

Here's what they told us about how they started to do that research or find a solution."

以下是他们告诉我们他们如何开始进行这项研究或找到解决方案的内容。”

Georgiana Laudi: And then there's questions that are asked in the research like, "What was the moment that convinced you that our product was going to solve this problem for you?" And the answers to that question are going to tell you what your first value should look like, which of that first product activation experience, whatever language you like to use, what should that look like for them?

乔治亚娜·劳迪：研究中提出了一些问题，例如“是什么时刻让您相信我们的产品将为您解决这个问题？”这个问题的答案将告诉您您的第一个价值应该是什么样子，第一个产品激活体验是什么，无论您喜欢使用什么语言，对他们来说应该是什么样子？

What parts of the product do you need to push right up to the front of that experience so they can get to it really, really quickly after they sign up?

您需要将产品的哪些部分直接推到该体验的最前面，以便他们在注册后能够非常非常快地使用它？

Georgiana Laudi: And then value realization obviously would be close to, if not, the desired outcome of that customer job where you're solving that customer job.

Georgiana Laudi：那么价值实现显然会接近（如果不是的话）您正在解决客户工作的客户工作的预期结果。

And then you've got all kinds of...

然后你就有了各种各样的...

Generally, what happens when I'm going through this process with teams is, all kinds of ideas start to come up about what more they could be doing, even post solving that customer job, especially the product team gets really exciting because they've got all kinds of ideas about where the product can go.

一般来说，当我与团队一起经历这个过程时，会发生各种各样的想法，关于他们还可以做什么，甚至在解决客户工作后，特别是产品团队变得非常令人兴奋，因为他们对产品的发展有各种各样的想法。

So that really helps tie everybody together too.

所以这也确实有助于将每个人联系在一起。

Georgiana Laudi: A critical part of that process obviously is identifying we have to measure success along the way.

Georgiana Laudi：这个过程的一个关键部分显然是确定我们必须一路衡量成功。

There should be a KPI for each of those stages in that customer journey.

客户旅程中的每个阶段都应该有一个 KPI。

And for the most part, they won't be a big surprise on the struggle side of things.

在大多数情况下，在事情的斗争方面，它们不会让人大吃一惊。

People out in the world experience the problem, how are we going to know we're doing a good job reaching them?

世界各地的人们都遇到过这个问题，我们如何知道我们在帮助他们方面做得很好呢？

We bring in new unique website visitors.

我们带来了新的独特网站访问者。

In general, that would be the measure of success for the problem milestone.

一般来说，这将是衡量问题里程碑是否成功的标准。

And then next piece of the puzzle is like, okay, once they discover that we exist, even if they are visiting, reading product reviews and visiting competitor sites or whatever, we'll know we've done a good job of convincing them that we can help solve their problem and deterring the people that we don't want.

然后下一个难题是，好吧，一旦他们发现我们的存在，即使他们正在访问、阅读产品评论和访问竞争对手的网站或其他什么，我们就会知道我们已经很好地说服了他们，我们可以帮助解决他们的问题并阻止我们不想要的人。

Georgiana Laudi: We know we've done a good job when the conversion rate on whatever our primary CTA is on our website, whether or not it's start a trial or request a demo, something like that.

Georgiana Laudi：当我们网站上的主要 CTA 的转化率很高时，无论是开始试用还是请求演示等，我们都知道我们做得很好。

Generally, the struggle phase is very straightforward in terms of measurement.

一般来说，斗争阶段的衡量方法非常简单。

That's like marketers' bread and butter, that's where they live and breathe all day long.

这就像营销人员的面包和黄油，是他们整天生活和呼吸的地方。

Where things start to change though generally when we're working with companies is helping them figure out how should they be measuring first value or product activation and how should they be measuring actual product engagement.

一般来说，当我们与公司合作时，事情开始发生变化，帮助他们弄清楚应该如何衡量第一价值或产品激活，以及他们应该如何衡量实际的产品参与度。

Generally, what we do there is, we can associate basically what they told us brings them the most amount of value with the product attribute or parts of the product that deliver that value.

一般来说，我们所做的就是，我们基本上可以将他们告诉我们给他们带来最大价值的东西与产品属性或提供该价值的产品部分联系起来。

We try to tie the KPI obviously to some sort of meaningful product usage of that key part of the product or product attribute.

我们试图将 KPI 明显地与产品或产品属性的关键部分的某种有意义的产品使用联系起来。

Lenny: Can you share some examples of that?

莱尼：你能分享一些例子吗？

Because that's a really important piece.

因为那是非常重要的一块。

Georgiana Laudi: Yeah.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：是的。

I'll use SparkToro as an example just because it's the one that we started with.

我将使用 SparkToro 作为示例，因为它是我们一开始使用的。

So for SparkToro, I don't remember the exact customer job statement necessarily, but for them, what they said were, the parts of the product that gave them a ton of value was two specific features: lists.

因此，对于 SparkToro 来说，我不一定记得确切的客户工作声明，但对他们来说，他们所说的是，产品中给他们带来大量价值的部分是两个特定功能：列表。

So being able to organize their findings in a way that made it not only easy for them to organize within their own files but also share because a lot of them were with clients or stakeholders that they want to be able to share with.

因此，能够以某种方式组织他们的发现，不仅使他们可以轻松地在自己的文件中进行组织，而且还可以进行共享，因为他们中的许多人都希望能够与客户或利益相关者共享。

So lists were a specific feature that honestly, it was in there, but they weren't front loading the product experience with that.

所以列表是一个特定的功能，老实说，它就在那里，但他们并没有预先加载产品体验。

I'm not going to say it was hidden, but it wasn't front and center enough.

我不会说它是隐藏的，但它不够前面和中心。

So that was one feature that we could associate with being able to organize the data, being able to continue to build on it and make it usable over time and also share.

因此，这是我们可以将其与能够组织数据、能够继续构建数据并使其随着时间的推移可用并共享相关联的一项功能。

Georgiana Laudi: And then there was another feature as well, which was an exporting feature.

Georgiana Laudi：还有另一个功能，那就是导出功能。

Again, it's not that it was hidden, but it wasn't front and center enough.

再说一次，并不是它被隐藏了，而是它不够前面和中心。

So we tied KPIs to them making use of those features, coupled with obviously the core feature, which is searchability.

因此，我们利用这些功能将 KPI 与它们联系起来，再加上明显的核心功能，即可搜索性。

It was like pairing the search functionality with the list functionality, and then pairing the search functionality with the list functionality, with the export functionality.

这就像将搜索功能与列表功能配对，然后将搜索功能与列表功能以及导出功能配对。

It's a bit abstract to me just saying the words.

光是说这些话对我来说有点抽象。

It's easier with a visual.

通过视觉更容易。

But the story is basically, help them use the search functionality first.

但故事基本上是，首先帮助他们使用搜索功能。

Right after that, make sure that they're using lists.

之后，确保他们使用列表。

And if they don't use lists, let's help them get back to using it so that they get to that important critical value moment.

如果他们不使用列表，让我们帮助他们重新使用列表，以便他们到达那个重要的关键价值时刻。

And then the same applies for the exporting features that we were talking about.

这同样适用于我们正在讨论的导出功能。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

And to be clear, you basically said a metric for each of these moments.

需要明确的是，您基本上为每个时刻都说了一个指标。

Georgiana Laudi: Or just whatever.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：或者随便什么。

I mean you have to.

我的意思是你必须这样做。

I mean it always surprises me when a team is like, "Oh yeah.

我的意思是，当一个团队说“哦，是的”时，我总是感到惊讶。

Yeah, you're right, we don't do that." I'm like, "What?

是的，你说得对，我们不这样做。”我想，“什么？

What do you mean?" So at a given milestone, unless they've reached that value moment, you can't keep them on the train to something else.

你什么意思？”因此，在某个特定的里程碑上，除非他们已经达到了那个价值时刻，否则你不能让他们继续前往其他地方。

If they haven't even discovered that really, to them, most valued part of their product, you would need to focus on getting them to that value.

如果他们甚至还没有发现，对他们来说，他们的产品中最有价值的部分，你就需要集中精力让他们实现这个价值。

Otherwise, you can't just keep firing off emails and hoping they're going to jump back into the product as if they're going to care.

否则，你不能只是不断地发送电子邮件并希望他们会跳回产品，就好像他们会关心一样。

So a lot of what we'd do is actually proactive customer experiences, whether or not in app or email or whatever tool, to help them get to that moment within the product.

因此，我们所做的很多事情实际上是主动的客户体验，无论是在应用程序、电子邮件还是其他工具中，以帮助他们在产品中达到那个时刻。

Georgiana Laudi: And if they don't get to that moment, which is measurable, again, that's why it's a KPI, then we can be reactive in helping them get back in.

Georgiana Laudi：如果他们没有到达那一刻（这是可衡量的），这就是为什么它是 KPI，那么我们可以做出反应，帮助他们重新进入。

So identifying, "Okay," not that you would say this like, "it fell off the train," but just helping them nurture them back into, the product didn't really discover that feature if they missed it the first time around.

因此，识别“好吧”，不是你会说“它从火车上掉下来”，而是只是帮助他们重新融入，如果他们第一次错过了该功能，那么该产品并没有真正发现该功能。

So it's proactive and pushing them forward, but then also catching them if they fall.

所以它是积极主动的，推动他们前进，但如果他们跌倒了，也会接住他们。

And the only way to catch them if they fall is if you're measuring something meaningful along the way.

如果他们跌倒了，抓住他们的唯一方法就是你一路上测量一些有意义的东西。

Georgiana Laudi: We have that storyboard that we were talking about.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：我们有我们正在谈论的故事板。

We also have a map where it's the experience to get them to a certain value moment, but then that win back experience to get them back in should they fall out for any reason.

我们还有一张地图，其中的经验可以让他们到达某个价值时刻，但如果他们因任何原因退出，则可以赢回经验让他们重新回来。

I mean, people get hungry and get distracted, and there's a ton of reasons why.

我的意思是，人们会感到饥饿并分心，原因有很多。

I mean there's a lot of stats on the percentage.

我的意思是有很多关于百分比的统计数据。

I think it's like 70% of people log into an app, log into a product once and never come back.

我认为这就像 70% 的人登录应用程序、登录产品一次后就再也没有回来过。

It's wild.

它很狂野。

So the fact that so many companies don't have some sort of win back or re-engagement always blows my mind.

因此，这么多公司没有以某种方式赢回或重新参与的事实总是让我感到震惊。

Lenny: So just to recap and then we'll keep going with the process.

莱尼：简单回顾一下，然后我们将继续这个过程。

Step one, understand what your customers are going through, figure out the most important customer and their biggest problem, then map out the journey that they go through, the struggle they go through before they discover your product, the steps they go through to evaluate, decide to use your product.

第一步，了解你的客户正在经历什么，找出最重要的客户和他们最大的问题，然后规划出他们经历的旅程，他们在发现你的产品之前经历的挣扎，他们评估、决定使用你的产品所经历的步骤。

And then once they use your product, then continuing to use your product and using it more and more.

一旦他们使用了你的产品，就会继续使用你的产品，并且越来越多地使用它。

And then once you figured out these steps...

然后一旦你弄清楚了这些步骤......

And is a rough number like 10, 12 steps?

大概的数字是 10、12 步吗？

What's a good number just to put-

一个好的数字是多少——

Georgiana Laudi: Oh no, I would hope it's more like six.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：哦，不，我希望它更像是六个。

Georgiana Laudi: I'm always trying to bring it down lowest, only as long as it absolutely needs to be.

Georgiana Laudi：我总是试图将其降到最低，只有在绝对需要的情况下。

I mean that goes for all pages, landing pages.

我的意思是这适用于所有页面，登陆页面。

Georgiana Laudi: Same thing for customer journey mask.

Georgiana Laudi：客户旅程面具也是如此。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Airbnb had 12, I think.

我想 Airbnb 有 12 个。

So you're involved in-

所以你参与了——

Lenny: I liked that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Okay.

好的。

And then you've come up with a metric to tell you if that step is performing well.

然后您提出了一个指标来告诉您该步骤是否执行良好。

Georgiana Laudi: If they'd gotten there, did they get to that value?

Georgiana Laudi：如果他们到达了那里，他们达到了那个价值吗？

Lenny: If they've gotten there.

莱尼：如果他们已经到了那里的话。

Cool.

凉爽的。

One last question before we move on to the next step.

在我们继续下一步之前还有最后一个问题。

Can you give two maybe examples of an actual movement, say in SparkToro's case, and then the metric that they use to measure, if they've gotten to that point?

您能否给出两个可能的实际运动示例（例如 SparkToro 的案例），以及他们用来衡量的指标（如果他们已经达到了这一点）？

Georgiana Laudi: Yes.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：是的。

So the measure for success at that tip somebody over into evaluation is performing their first search.

因此，衡量某人是否成功的标准是进行第一次搜索。

So when you're on their website, you perform a search, it's not signing up for a trial or signing up for free, although it does tip you into signing up for free when you perform your first search.

因此，当您在他们的网站上执行搜索时，这并不是注册试用或免费注册，尽管它确实会在您执行第一次搜索时提示您免费注册。

So signing up for getting your first search and seeing your first search results is that first measure.

因此，注册获得您的第一次搜索并查看您的第一个搜索结果是第一个措施。

And then following that for first value, it is using search again.

然后，在第一个值之后，它再次使用搜索。

I mean this is very product specific like I said, but generally, a first search is a kind of an experiment where you're sort of trying the tool on for the first time.

我的意思是，正如我所说，这是非常特定于产品的，但一般来说，第一次搜索是一种实验，您是第一次尝试该工具。

Generally, searches start to get better when you do your second and third.

一般来说，当您进行第二次和第三次搜索时，搜索就会开始变得更好。

So we try to encourage at least five plus.

所以我们尽量鼓励至少五个以上。

Georgiana Laudi: So that first value KPI, I think it was five plus searches, plus at least one list.

Georgiana Laudi：第一个关键绩效指标（KPI），我认为是五个以上的搜索，加上至少一个列表。

So it's the combination of those two things that have to happen before somebody's going to really see what this thing does.

因此，在人们真正了解这个东西的作用之前，必须先将这两件事结合起来。

It's not that they won't get value if they don't use lists, but because we know that SparkToro's ideal customers really get a ton of value out of lists, people can hang out in that stage all day long if they want to.

这并不是说如果他们不使用列表就不会获得价值，而是因为我们知道 SparkToro 的理想客户确实可以从列表中获得大量价值，所以如果人们愿意，他们可以整天在这个阶段闲逛。

We're not going to worry about them.

我们不会担心他们。

We're going to worry about the people that really want the actual functionality of the real fully featured tool.

我们会担心那些真正想要真正功能齐全的工具的实际功能的人。

So that was the first value, that's how we would know that they got to product activation.

这就是第一个值，这就是我们如何知道他们已激活产品的方式。

Georgiana Laudi: And then the next one, as I mentioned before, is a combination of actually three things.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：然后，正如我之前提到的，下一个实际上是三件事的组合。

So it is conducting a minimum amount of searches within a span of time, creating at least a certain number of lists, I can't remember exactly what it is, and then discovering exporting at least once.

因此，它在一段时间内进行最少量的搜索，创建至少一定数量的列表，我记不清它到底是什么，然后发现至少导出一次。

And then that is, they've reached a meaningful enough threshold of product engagement.

也就是说，他们已经达到了足够有意义的产品参与门槛。

And then value growth was that they do all of that on a regular enough basis so that we know they're not a flight risk basically.

然后价值增长是他们足够定期地做所有这些事情，这样我们就知道他们基本上不存在逃跑风险。

So that we know that they're getting continued value from the product.

这样我们就知道他们正在从产品中获得持续的价值。

And if they ever fall out of that ongoing engagement measured success, then we can trigger either one-on-one outreach, an email, whatever.

如果他们脱离了持续参与衡量的成功，那么我们可以触发一对一的外展，一封电子邮件，等等。

I mean obviously it can't be an app because if they're not logging into the app, then you can't reach them.

我的意思是显然它不可能是一个应用程序，因为如果他们没有登录该应用程序，那么你就无法联系到他们。

But to help them back in and to say, "Hey, what's up?

但要帮助他们回来并说：“嘿，怎么了？

Can we help?

我们可以帮忙吗？

Is there anything that we can do?" And basically be proactive in getting them back in.

有什么我们可以做的吗？”基本上要积极主动地让他们回来。

And then value growth, I believe I think it was expansion or upgrade in their case.

然后是价值增长，我相信我认为对他们来说这是扩张或升级。

I can't remember exactly.

我记不太清了。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

So you end up with these say, six KPIs.

因此，您最终会得到六个 KPI。

Lenny: I imagine this becomes goals you track, and then you probably pick one of these to focus on say, per year, per quarter.

莱尼：我想这会成为你跟踪的目标，然后你可能会选择其中一个来关注，比如每年、每季度。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Georgiana Laudi: Hopefully short, because I mean I will say that with some of the KPIs, it's very straightforward with new unique website visitors or the website conversion rate.

Georgiana Laudi：希望很简短，因为我的意思是我会说，对于一些 KPI，新的独特网站访问者或网站转化率非常简单。

I mean depending on who owns the website, that's not something that should take you a year.

我的意思是，这取决于网站的所有者，这不会花费您一年的时间。

You should never be focused on only your website's conversion rate for a year hopefully.

希望您永远不应该只关注网站一年的转化率。

But these other KPIs and these other milestones, I mean I have no disillusions about if it impacts the product, obviously there's a lot of implications there.

但这些其他关键绩效指标和其他里程碑，我的意思是，我对它是否会影响产品没有失望，显然那里有很多影响。

So yes, generally, once you tip over into that sort of in-app and more product experience, timelines vary widely, to say the least.

所以，是的，一般来说，一旦你进入那种应用内和更多的产品体验，至少可以说，时间表差别很大。

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

Let's move on to the next step.

让我们继续下一步。

Georgiana Laudi: Okay.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：好的。

So after that point, we had a rich voice of customer document that came out of that research.

因此，在那之后，我们从该研究中获得了丰富的客户声音文档。

We had a messaging guide for them to use not only in their marketing materials but also through the entire product experience, and also identifying the parts of the product that were so meaningful.

我们为他们提供了一个消息传递指南，不仅可以在营销材料中使用，还可以在整个产品体验中使用，并确定产品中非常有意义的部分。

Actually, their VP of marketing, the new VP of marketing, Amanda Natividad, actually rolled out checklist.

事实上，他们的营销副总裁、新任营销副总裁阿曼达·纳蒂维达 (Amanda Natividad) 实际上推出了清单。

They built a checklist, a product onboarding checklist and also product onboarding emails.

他们建立了一个清单、一个产品入门清单以及产品入门电子邮件。

And their trial-to-paid doubled.

他们的试用付费倍增。

We were like, "Okay, cool, let us know if you need any help or whatever." And they're like, "Oh, we're good.

我们说：“好吧，好吧，如果您需要任何帮助或其他什么，请告诉我们。”他们就像，“哦，我们很好。

We got this." Checked in two months later and their trial-to-paid had doubled.

我们得到了这个。”两个月后检查，他们的试用付费增加了一倍。

Lenny: I feel like you skipped the important staff of, "Hey, we got KPIs." And then you're like, "Oh, we gave them all this information." So I'd love to spend a little more time on there.

莱尼：我觉得你忽略了重要的部分，“嘿，我们有 KPI。”然后你会说，“哦，我们给了他们所有这些信息。”所以我很愿意在那里多花一点时间。

You came up with messaging for them, positioning stuff.

你为他们想出了消息传递、定位的东西。

what happens there?

那里会发生什么？

Georgiana Laudi: Well, this is the thing.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：嗯，就是这样。

They have a team in place.

他们有一个团队。

They've got very highly skilled, a huge team but highly skilled marketer there at the helm.

他们拥有一支技术非常高超、团队庞大但技术高超的营销人员来掌舵。

I mean not the list of which is Rand Fishkin, their CEO.

我的意思不是他们的首席执行官兰德·菲什金（Rand Fishkin）的名单。

So basically, what we did was we gave them, it's like a framework.

所以基本上，我们所做的就是给他们，它就像一个框架。

So it's like, "Here are the bones of this.

所以就像是，“这是这个的骨架。

So got a messaging and positioning guide for you." Generally, I mean when we do them, they're five to seven pages long.

所以我们为您准备了一份消息传递和定位指南。”一般来说，我的意思是当我们做它们时，它们有五到七页长。

They hit on the value prop.

他们抓住了价值支柱。

They hit on the major competitive advantages.

他们抓住了主要的竞争优势。

They hit on the major value themes that you want to focus on.

他们击中了您想要关注的主要价值主题。

Those value themes can be broken down by the emotional benefits and the functional benefits tied to the product attributes that drive that value.

这些价值主题可以通过与驱动该价值的产品属性相关的情感效益和功能效益来细分。

So that document, and there's more that goes into it, but that messaging guide basically can be used as the baseline for all kinds of marketing collateral and material, but also email onboarding.

因此，该文档以及更多内容，但该消息传递指南基本上可以用作各种营销材料和材料的基准，也可以用作电子邮件入门的基准。

Georgiana Laudi: So when they're writing their email sequences for whatever it is they're trying to solve for, whatever milestone they're solving for, they can use that as their baseline like, "This is what we're going for.

Georgiana Laudi：因此，当他们为想要解决的任何问题编写电子邮件序列时，无论他们要解决什么里程碑，他们都可以使用它作为基线，例如“这就是我们想要的。

This is the goal here." And that messaging guide rules up to the job to be done.

这就是这里的目标。”该消息传递指南决定了要完成的工作。

So the job to be done is sort of like the top line.

所以要完成的工作有点像顶线。

And then we've got that messaging that serves that job to be done.

然后我们就得到了为完成这项工作服务的消息。

And then we've got the sort of operationalized customer experience with those milestones and KPIs.

然后我们就通过这些里程碑和 KPI 获得了可操作的客户体验。

And then you sort of zoom in on like, where is the experience most broken right now?

然后你会放大看，现在体验最糟糕的地方在哪里？

We already knew that for SparkToro.

对于 SparkToro，我们已经知道这一点。

We knew that we wanted to influence that first early product experience.

我们知道我们想要影响第一个早期产品体验。

So that's where we zoomed in and decided on what programs they should roll out.

因此，这就是我们放大并决定他们应该推出哪些计划的地方。

And email onboarding was a natural, as was the checklist.

电子邮件入职是很自然的事情，清单也是如此。

Lenny: For folks that want to work on messaging, say kind of just like, "Hey, here's a bunch of messaging advice," any tips for how to message well, how to think about messaging once you have a sense of your journey, maybe some goals, any just pro tips here you could share?

Lenny：对于那些想要从事消息传递工作的人来说，可以说“嘿，这里有一堆消息传递建议”，任何关于如何很好地传递消息的提示，一旦您了解了自己的旅程，如何考虑消息传递，也许有一些目标，或者您可以在这里分享的任何专业提示？

Georgiana Laudi: Oh, boy.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：哦，孩子。

I mean that research and the voice of customer, I mean I'm always going to go back to that.

我的意思是研究和客户的声音，我的意思是我总是会回到这一点。

You can guess and you can do use your best judgment.

您可以猜测，并且可以运用您的最佳判断。

You can use internal stakeholders and the internal team knowledge.

您可以利用内部利益相关者和内部团队知识。

And I'm not saying that that is not valuable and that you shouldn't use that at all.

我并不是说它没有价值并且你根本不应该使用它。

You can, but it should never come before learning from and listening to your best ideal customers and using the language that they use.

你可以，但在向最理想的客户学习、倾听他们的意见并使用他们使用的语言之前，永远不应该这样做。

You want to reflect them back to them.

你想将它们反映给他们。

That is what is going to show them that you understand the problem that they have and that your product has exactly what it is that they need.

这将向他们表明您了解他们所面临的问题，并且您的产品正是他们所需要的。

Georgiana Laudi: The hierarchy of messaging is really important as well.

Georgiana Laudi：消息传递的层次结构也非常重要。

So I mean, there's the classic, sometimes it's hard to see the label from inside the jar, so it's really helpful to get out and be like, "Okay, how do customers see us?" Generally, you can identify the hierarchy of what is important to them, what is the thing that they say is most valuable about their product?

所以我的意思是，这是经典的，有时很难从罐子里面看到标签，所以走出去并说“好吧，顾客如何看待我们？”真的很有帮助。一般来说，您可以确定对他们来说重要的层次结构，他们认为他们的产品最有价值的是什么？

What was that aha moment or what was that first value moment?

那个顿悟时刻是什么，或者第一个价值时刻是什么？

Or what is the thing that makes you stand out over everybody else?

或者是什么让你比其他人脱颖而出？

And it can literally be a numbers game.

它实际上可以是一个数字游戏。

If you take a hundred or so survey responses, you can break that down like, "Here's the thing they said they cared about most.

如果你收集了一百个左右的调查回复，你可以将其细分为：“这是他们说他们最关心的事情。

Here's the thing they said they cared about second most and third most," not to be so paint by numbers about it, but there's art in the science.

这是他们说他们最关心的第二和第三大的事情，”不要用数字来描述它，但科学中有艺术。

But in general, you want to reflect back what they said they care about, not what you think is the coolest thing about your product.

但总的来说，你想要反映他们所说的他们关心的事情，而不是你认为你的产品最酷的事情。

That's obviously not the best way to go.

这显然不是最好的方法。

Georgiana Laudi: That's something that we all inherently know, but it becomes really hard when there's a lot going on and things are changing and the product is evolving and there's a lot of teens and people are coming and going.

乔治亚娜·劳迪（Georgiana Laudi）：这是我们本质上都知道的事情，但是当发生了很多事情，事情在变化，产品在不断发展，并且有很多青少年和人们来来往往时，这就变得非常困难。

It's easy to lose sight of that, especially when you're just trying to get shit out the door.

人们很容易忽视这一点，尤其是当你只是想把屎扔出去的时候。

So that messaging guide is mentally like, "Okay, here we are.

因此，消息传递指南在心理上就像是：“好吧，我们到了。

This is my baseline, these are my guardrails for everything that we produce." It's also really handy to hand off to copywriters when you bring in...

这是我的底线，是我们生产的一切的护栏。”当您引入...时，将其交给文案撰稿人也非常方便。

I mean not just copywriters, lots of people, but particularly when you're producing copy, providing that messaging guide is solar platter for them.

我的意思不仅仅是文案，还有很多人，特别是当你制作文案时，提供信息指南对他们来说是太阳能拼盘。

Lenny: Is this available anywhere, the template that you end up sharing with a customer?

Lenny：您最终与客户共享的模板在任何地方都可用吗？

Just like, here's a guide, the layout, messaging, recommendations.

就像，这里有一个指南、布局、消息、建议。

Georgiana Laudi: We have so many templates and stuff.

Georgiana Laudi：我们有很多模板和东西。

Yeah, I'll include a couple links.

是的，我会添加几个链接。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

I'll put it in the show notes.

我会把它写在演出笔记里。

Georgiana Laudi: We got lots of stuff like that.

Georgiana Laudi：我们有很多这样的东西。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

A few final questions around jobs to be done.

关于要完成的工作的最后几个问题。

Lenny: So you said that they doubled their conversion from free to paid.

莱尼：所以你说他们从免费到付费的转化率翻了一番。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

What was their job to be done in the end?

他们最终要做什么？

And then I just have a few questions about the jobs to be-

然后我有几个关于工作的问题-

Georgiana Laudi: I think it was when they're struggling to identify opportunities that aren't as obvious.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：我认为这是他们努力寻找不那么明显的机会的时候。

So generally, when you're doing marketing research, you'll end up signing the same things over and over again.

因此，一般来说，当您进行营销研究时，您最终会一遍又一遍地签署相同的内容。

And if you are a service provider or if you're in-house for that matter and you're tasked with always coming up with novel and new and more and more and more, you tap that pretty quickly.

如果您是一家服务提供商，或者如果您是内部人员，并且您的任务是始终提出新颖的、越来越多的内容，那么您很快就会点击它。

So what customers were coming to them for was like, "Give me more.

所以顾客来找他们的目的就是，“给我更多。

I need to impress here.

我需要在这里留下深刻的印象。

I need more to work with.

我需要更多的工作。

I need to identify opportunities that I wouldn't otherwise be aware of." Actually that was exactly what it was.

我需要发现我原本不会意识到的机会。”事实上，事情正是如此。

I helped me identify opportunities as I wouldn't otherwise be aware of.

我帮助我发现了我原本不会意识到的机会。

So the customer job statement is, "When I am in a certain situation, help me," which is filled in by what those things that they're looking, for those motivations, "so I can," which is the desired outcome.

因此，客户的工作声明是，“当我处于某种情况时，帮助我”，其中填写了他们正在寻找的东西，出于这些动机，“所以我可以”，这是期望的结果。

Georgiana Laudi: The help me was about, I believe it was in a way that is organized and that is shareable and usable over time that I can build on and really rely on over time.

Georgiana Laudi：对我的帮助是，我相信这是一种有组织的方式，随着时间的推移，这种方式是可共享和可用的，随着时间的推移，我可以在此基础上继续发展并真正依赖它。

And the desired outcome was about, I mean this isn't going to be surprising, but it was about getting stakeholder by hand and getting people on board with, and sharing and looking good, looking like a pro, and doing their job more effectively and driving better results for either their own team or for their clients.

期望的结果是，我的意思是这不会令人惊讶，而是要亲自让利益相关者参与进来，让人们参与进来，分享并看起来不错，看起来像专业人士，更有效地完成工作，为自己的团队或客户带来更好的结果。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

We got there.

我们到了那里。

We gloss a little bit over jobs to be done.

我们稍微掩盖了一些需要完成的工作。

I imagine many people listening have no idea what this is.

我想很多听的人都不知道这是什么。

So maybe as our final question, can you just explain what this framework is and how folks can learn to use it, or any resources you recommend that comes to mind?

因此，也许作为我们的最后一个问题，您能否解释一下这个框架是什么以及人们如何学习使用它，或者您推荐的任何资源？

Georgiana Laudi: Yeah.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：是的。

I mean a heavy influence for us definitely is Bob Moesta, who's one of the original architects of jobs to be done.

我的意思是，对我们产生重大影响的肯定是鲍勃·莫埃斯塔（Bob Moesta），他是待完成工作的原始架构师之一。

There are lots of materials online for jobs.

网上有很多工作材料。

I am not the foremost authority in jobs at all.

我根本不是工作方面的最高权威。

I think jtbd.info is a good website.

我认为 jtbd.info 是一个很好的网站。

There's a bunch.

有一堆。

Also, Bob Moesta wrote a book called Demand-Side Sales that goes into it.

此外，鲍勃·莫埃斯塔 (Bob Moesta) 写了一本名为《需求方销售》的书，其中对此进行了探讨。

There's also a lot of books written about jobs to be done.

还有很多关于要完成的工作的书籍。

When Coffee and Kale is one that a lot of people love.

当咖啡和羽衣甘蓝是很多人喜欢的一种时。

I digress.

我离题了。

Point being that what matters is identifying what it is that customers are trying to accomplish.

重点是，重要的是确定客户想要实现的目标是什么。

So demographic data doesn't matter.

所以人口统计数据并不重要。

The classic example is, if you look at...

典型的例子是，如果你看...

Oh, King Charles, now the example has changed.

哦，查尔斯国王，现在例子已经改变了。

If you look at Ozzy Osbourne, and it was Prince Charles the original, but now it's King Charles, if you look at those two men, they're the exact same age and live in the same area.

如果你看看奥兹·奥斯本，原来是查尔斯王子，但现在是查尔斯国王，如果你看看这两个人，他们的年龄完全相同，住在同一地区。

They both have a dog.

他们都有一只狗。

They both love cars.

他们都喜欢汽车。

Georgiana Laudi: From a demographic standpoint, they are identical, but they obviously lead very different lives.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：从人口统计的角度来看，他们是相同的，但显然他们过着截然不同的生活。

What motivates them is very different.

他们的动机非常不同。

So that is where typically personas sort of fall down.

这就是角色通常会失败的地方。

So what jobs to be done, to us, is help you figure out what is that desired outcome, what does that better life that customers are seeking out.

因此，对我们来说，要做的工作就是帮助您弄清楚期望的结果是什么，客户正在寻求的更好的生活是什么。

You were just the vehicle to get them there.

你只是把他们送到那里的工具。

That's all it is.

仅此而已。

I mean there's so many tired analogies so I don't even want to use them but-

我的意思是有太多令人厌倦的类比，所以我什至不想使用它们，但是-

Georgiana Laudi: The milkshake one, it's not even the analogy.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：奶昔，这甚至不是类比。

I think that was one of the original job stories that is the milkshake one.

我认为这是最初的工作故事之一，即奶昔故事。

Lenny: Any other things you want to share about the process that you go through with the companies, things you've learned, before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

Lenny：在我们进行令人兴奋的闪电轮融资之前，您还想分享一下您与公司合作的过程以及您学到的东西吗？

Georgiana Laudi: Yeah.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：是的。

One of the objections that we often get to this type of work is that research takes a long time and that research can often lead to more questions and can slow everything down.

我们对此类工作经常遇到的反对意见之一是，研究需要很长时间，而且研究往往会导致更多问题，并可能减慢一切。

You can end up in analysis paralysis, but it doesn't have to be that way.

您可能会陷入分析瘫痪，但情况并非一定如此。

It can be very straightforward, honestly, in a survey scenario.

老实说，在调查场景中，这可能非常简单。

With SparkToro, in just that scenario, I have lots of examples of companies where we ran surveys, it can be a couple of weeks.

对于 SparkToro，在这种情况下，我有很多我们进行调查的公司的例子，这可能需要几周的时间。

Two or three weeks, you can actually come out with something solid to move forward with, and you don't get stuck in the bickering or all those stakeholders, the too many cooks in the kitchen.

两到三周后，你实际上可以拿出一些可靠的东西来推进，并且你不会陷入争吵或所有利益相关者，厨房里太多厨师的困境。

You can come to something decisive.

你可以做出决定性的事情。

You can get value out of that.

你可以从中获得价值。

Georgiana Laudi: The other thing too, the other objection that we get a lot from founders in particular is because they build products to solve a problem that they had, which is cool and it definitely makes you one of the most knowledgeable people about your solution.

Georgiana Laudi：还有一件事，我们从创始人那里得到的另一个反对意见，是因为他们开发产品来解决他们遇到的问题，这很酷，而且肯定会让你成为对解决方案最了解的人之一。

But products change, markets change, customers change, teams change in a ball.

但产品在变化，市场在变化，客户在变化，团队也在发生变化。

Not everything can live inside of your head, and there's a ton of value in learning and getting inside the heads of your best customers that you may have been really close to the inception of the product.

并不是所有的事情都能存在于你的头脑中，学习和了解你最好的客户的头脑有很大的价值，因为你可能已经非常接近产品的诞生了。

But if any span of time has changed, you'll always learn something new.

但如果时间跨度发生变化，你总会学到新的东西。

I've never been in a scenario like this where a founder has not learned something new from their research and been able to leverage it in a way that makes their product experience better.

我从来没有遇到过这样的情况：创始人没有从他们的研究中学到新的东西，并且能够以一种让他们的产品体验更好的方式利用它。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

We'll come back to how folks can reach out to you if they want to experience this process, could work with you, learn more.

我们将回到人们如何联系您，如果他们想体验这个过程，可以与您合作，了解更多信息。

But before we get there, we've gotten into a very exciting lightning round.

但在我们到达那里之前，我们已经进入了一场非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five quick questions for you.

我有五个简单的问题要问你。

We'll go through them quick, whatever comes to mind.

无论想到什么，我们都会快速浏览它们。

That's what we're doing.

这就是我们正在做的事情。

Okay, sounds good?

好吧，听起来不错吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

What are two or three books that you recommend most to people looking to get better at marketing?

您最向那些希望提高营销水平的人推荐哪两三本书？

Georgiana Laudi: I very, very, very rarely read marketing books, but there's two that I think are pretty foundational and recent.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：我非常非常非常很少读营销书籍，但我认为有两本非常基础且最新的书籍。

So Obviously Awesome by April Dunford.

显然太棒了，作者：April Dunford。

I'm sure you've heard that one a ton.

我相信你已经听过很多次了。

It's kind of required reading, I would say, especially for founders.

我想说，这是必读的书，尤其是对于创始人而言。

I told April when she first wrote, I'm like, "I'm going to require every single founder I work with to read your book before we work with them," because it's foundational, you have to know that.

当阿普丽尔第一次写信时，我告诉她，“我会要求每一位与我合作的创始人在与他们合作之前阅读你的书，”因为这是基础性的，你必须知道这一点。

Georgiana Laudi: And then the other one that I really enjoyed flip side was Hooked by Nir Eyal.

乔治亚娜·劳迪（Georgiana Laudi）：我真正喜欢的另一件事是尼尔·埃亚尔（Nir Eyal）的《Hooked》。

That one was great too.

那个也很棒。

But like I said, I don't read many marketing books.

但就像我说的，我读的营销书籍不多。

The other one that I would be remiss not to mention is ours that we're writing about the process, which is really about the step by step how to do this thing.

另一件我不提的疏忽是我们正在写的过程，这实际上是关于如何一步一步地做这件事。

So as much as we love going through this process with companies, I sort of took a page from April here too, in that telling the process and having people be able to rule this out and do this internally themselves has been wildly gratifying.

因此，尽管我们非常喜欢与公司一起经历这个过程，但我也借鉴了四月份的经验，因为讲述这个过程并让人们能够排除这种情况并自己在内部执行此操作一直是非常令人满意的。

We do it with a training program and this is our next step in getting out into the world even more.

我们通过培训计划来做到这一点，这是我们进一步走向世界的下一步。

So you absolutely can do this stuff yourself.

所以你绝对可以自己做这些事情。

So that process is later in that book.

所以这个过程在那本书的后面。

And then another book that I read recently, which has nothing to do with marketing at all, but was really nice was 4000 Weeks.

我最近读的另一本书是《4000 Weeks》，与营销完全无关，但非常好。

I don't think-

我不认为——

Georgiana Laudi: Oh yeah, I enjoyed it.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：哦，是的，我很喜欢。

It was a nice sort of coming back to base a bit.

回到基地真是太好了。

I don't know when I read it.

我不知道我什么时候读到的。

I just finished it a couple of weeks ago.

我几周前刚刚完成。

It was just the timing was perfect.

只是时机非常完美。

I feel like what's going on in the world right now and how everybody's probably feeling right now, it's a good solid read for now.

我觉得现在世界上正在发生什么，以及每个人现在可能的感受，这是一本很好的、可靠的读物。

Lenny: I'm enjoying it.

莱尼：我很享受。

I just started.

我刚刚开始。

I'm glad to-

我很高兴——

Lenny: Well, you encouraged me to keep reading it.

莱尼：嗯，你鼓励我继续读下去。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Favorite recent movie or TV show?

最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Georgiana Laudi: I have young kids.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：我有年幼的孩子。

I just bought a second property.

我刚刚购买了第二处房产。

We're renovating three houses right now.

我们现在正在装修三栋房子。

I do not watch movies almost ever.

我几乎从不看电影。

The only thing that I'm currently binging is YouTubers that do DIY interior design and renos.

我目前唯一喜欢的是 DIY 室内设计和装修的 YouTuber。

Reason being my partner and I bought a property with four very, very old cottages lakefront, almost like tiny houses, little cottages.

原因是我和我的伴侣在湖边买了一套有四栋非常非常古老的小屋的房产，几乎就像小房子、小小屋。

We are slowly renovating each of them.

我们正在慢慢地翻新它们中的每一个。

So my sort of fill is learning about interior design and DIY home rentals.

所以我的兴趣就是学习室内设计和 DIY 房屋租赁。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Who's had the most impact on you in your career?

Lenny：在你的职业生涯中，谁对你影响最大？

Georgiana Laudi: This is the worst question.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：这是最糟糕的问题。

I hate saying this, but it's probably my dad.

我讨厌这么说，但这可能是我爸爸。

I have to say my dad because he's an entrepreneur through and through.

我不得不说我的父亲，因为他是一位彻头彻尾的企业家。

And I remember very vividly, I worked for him for I think eight years early in my career.

我记得非常清楚，在我职业生涯的早期，我为他工作了八年。

One of the things that he always said was like, "It was the joy of the business." He didn't care what, he's like, "It doesn't matter what you're selling." He could be selling anything, but it was the joy of entrepreneurship.

他总是说的一件事是，“这是生意的乐趣。”他不在乎什么，他就像，“你卖什么并不重要。”他可以卖任何东西，但这是创业的乐趣。

And that really stuck with me.

这真的让我难以忘怀。

So even when I was in house, I always knew that I needed to do something on my own and be in charge of that journey.

因此，即使当我在家时，我也始终知道我需要自己做一些事情并负责这段旅程。

His joy in it has impacted me a lot.

他的快乐对我影响很大。

He was the reason why I knew I was always going to do this.

他是我知道我总是会这样做的原因。

Georgiana Laudi: Other than that, I would say I have an incredible network of women that I have been very lucky.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：除此之外，我想说我拥有一个令人难以置信的女性网络，我非常幸运。

We're part of a group that we call Shine Crew.

我们是 Shine Crew 团队的成员。

I think I'm supposed to copyright that or something to somebody because I think the term Shine Theory is what it's based on basically.

我认为我应该将其或其他东西的版权授予某人，因为我认为“闪耀理论”一词基本上就是它的基础。

But I'm very, very lucky to be heavily influenced by April Dunford, Tara Robertson, Joanna Wiebe, Talia Wolf.

但我非常非常幸运地受到阿普丽尔·邓福德、塔拉·罗伯逊、乔安娜·维贝、塔利亚·沃尔夫的影响。

And then obviously my business partner, Claire, obviously changed everything for me.

显然，我的商业伙伴克莱尔显然改变了我的一切。

Having that partnership in business, I don't think I would've lasted this long.

有了这种商业伙伴关系，我想我不会坚持这么久。

So yeah, definitely a huge influence for sure.

所以，是的，肯定会产生巨大的影响。

Lenny: What's one thing that helps you stay focused and productive during the day?

莱尼：有什么事情可以帮助你在一天中保持专注和高效？

Georgiana Laudi: Definitely carving up time, like time blocking.

Georgiana Laudi：绝对是分割时间，就像时间阻塞一样。

I do a lot of time blocking in advance with a little brain emoji of safeguarding my time.

我会提前用一些大脑表情符号来阻止很多时间，以保护我的时间。

Because we're a small team and we use Slack obviously, something else that we do to protect each other's time is not time stamp, but we put a little code in all of our messages that's either like, "You don't have to listen to this before the end of the day," or, "It's timely," or, "It's no rush," so that we know when we need to mentally process messages in Slack, so we can drop in there just periodically.

因为我们是一个小团队，而且我们显然使用 Slack，所以我们为保护彼此的时间所做的其他事情不是时间戳，而是我们在所有消息中添加了一些代码，例如“您不必在一天结束之前听这个”，或者“很及时”，或者“不着急”，这样我们就知道何时需要在 Slack 中在心里处理消息，这样我们就可以定期去那里。

And then the only other thing that I would say that I do maybe once a month or once a quarter is, we're pretty buttoned up about our time tracking, so we go back and it sort of keeps us honest about how our time is actually spent.

然后我想说的唯一一件事是，我可能每月一次或每季度一次，我们对时间跟踪非常保守，所以我们回去，这让我们诚实地了解我们的时间实际上是如何度过的。

And then we can sort of adjust and time block accordingly to make up for the shortcomings of our previous quarter.

然后我们可以相应地进行调整和时间限制，以弥补上一季度的缺陷。

Lenny: That was really clever.

莱尼：那真是太聪明了。

I haven't heard of that trick.

我没听说过这个伎俩。

What's the emoji for "You can do this later"?

“你可以稍后再做”的表情符号是什么？

Georgiana Laudi: We actually just use no rush or EOD for end of day, or timely.

Georgiana Laudi：实际上，我们只是在一天结束时或及时使用“不紧急”或“EOD”。

We do have the alarm emoji, is the "Now.

我们确实有闹钟表情符号，就是“现在。”

This is going to be dealt with ASAP."

这将尽快得到处理。”

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Gia, thank you for making time.

Gia，谢谢您抽出时间。

For this final question, where can folks find you online?

对于最后一个问题，人们可以在哪里在线找到您？

How do they pre-order your book?

他们如何预订您的书？

How can they learn more?

他们如何才能了解更多？

And then also, just how can listeners be useful to you?

还有，听众如何对你有用？

Georgiana Laudi: Thank you for asking.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：谢谢您的提问。

Twitter is probably the best way.

Twitter 可能是最好的方式。

My Twitter handle is atrocious, @ggiiaa is me on Twitter.

我的 Twitter 账号太糟糕了，@ggiiaa 是我的 Twitter。

I'm on LinkedIn every once in a while obviously.

显然，我偶尔会使用 LinkedIn。

My email address is gia@forgetthefunnel.com.

我的电子邮件地址是 gia@forgetthefunnel.com。

So if anybody has any questions, whatever, feel free to email me.

因此，如果有人有任何疑问，请随时给我发电子邮件。

If you want any templates or whatever that don't get included in the show notes, just ping me.

如果您想要任何模板或任何未包含在演出说明中的内容，请联系我。

I've no problem with that.

我对此没有问题。

And then forgetthefunnel.com, we've got a book page where there is a wait list for the...

然后忘记thefunnel.com，我们有一个图书页面，其中有一个等待名单......

Well, we're going to do presale, and then the published physical book will be early in 2023.

嗯，我们准备预售，然后2023年初出版实体书。

But we are going to do presale because...

但我们要进行预售，因为......

Get it in those hands.

把它拿到那些人手里。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

Lenny: Love it.

莱尼：喜欢。

Gia, thank you for being here.

吉亚，谢谢你来到这里。

Georgiana Laudi: Thank you so much for having me.

乔治亚娜·劳迪：非常感谢您邀请我。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。