'Leaving big tech to build the #1 technology newsletter | Gergely Orosz (The Pragmatic Engineer)'
Gergely Orosz: In my best year at Uber, I made about 320 or $330,000 in total compensation.
Gergely Orosz：在 Uber 工作最好的一年，我的总薪酬约为 320 美元（即 33 万美元）。
And when I quit my job, I was actually thinking, am I crazy?
当我辞职时，我实际上在想，我疯了吗？
Because I am leaving...
因为我要离开...
Especially in Europe, this is a lot of money this will be similar to something...
特别是在欧洲，这是很多钱，这将类似于......
Someone in a similar position would've made five or 600K in total in the U.S. But now I am making more in compensation that I made at Uber.
处于类似职位的人在美国总共可以赚到 5 或 60 万。但现在我的薪酬比我在 Uber 赚的还要多。
And the difference is that now my compensation...
不同的是，现在我的补偿...
Well, my earnings keep going up as long as the newsletter is growing, so there's no theoretical cap on this.
嗯，只要时事通讯不断增长，我的收入就会不断增加，所以理论上没有上限。
Of course there's an actual cap, there's churn, growth is slowing over time.
当然，存在实际的上限，存在流失，增长随着时间的推移而放缓。
But it's very, very strange, because I felt that I was in a really privileged position, just honestly making tons of money, doing a job that I loved.
但这非常非常奇怪，因为我觉得我处于一个非常优越的地位，只是诚实地赚了很多钱，做着我喜欢的工作。
And this was at Uber or as a software engineer.
这是在 Uber 或作为一名软件工程师。
And I'm now doing stuff that I love, and in some strange way, I guess it even pays better.
我现在正在做我喜欢的事情，而且以某种奇怪的方式，我想它甚至能带来更好的报酬。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.
莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。
I'm Lenny, and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.
我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。
I interview world class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and scaling today's most successful companies.
我采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们建立和扩展当今最成功的公司的来之不易的经验中学习。
Today my guest is Gergely Orosz.
今天我的客人是盖尔盖伊·奥罗斯。
In a sense, Gergely is the me of engineering.
从某种意义上说，盖尔盖伊就是工程学界的我。
He's got the top engineering newsletter on Substack, it's growing really fast, and like me, he does this full time.
他在 Substack 上拥有顶级工程通讯，它的发展速度非常快，而且和我一样，他全职做这件事。
In this episode, we talk about the life of newslettering full time, like we both do.
在这一集中，我们像我们一样谈论全职时事通讯的生活。
We get into Gergely's decision to leave his cushy tech job at Uber, to go into this life full-time, what the day-to-day life of a newsletter person is, the pros and cons of this life, what it takes to be successful, and a bunch of advice for how to get started if you're curious about going down this route.
我们探讨了 Gergely 决定辞去 Uber 舒适的技术工作，全职投入这种生活，新闻通讯员的日常生活是什么，这种生活的利弊，成功所需的条件，以及如果你对走这条路感到好奇的话如何开始的一系列建议。
This is a pretty unique episode, and it was really fun to do.
这是一个非常独特的剧集，而且制作起来真的很有趣。
If you ever thought about writing or going down this creator route, you'll love this episode.
如果您曾经想过写作或走这条创作者路线，您一定会喜欢这一集。
With that, I bring you Gergely Orosz.
接下来，我为您带来了盖尔盖伊·奥罗斯。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by lemon.io.
莱尼：这一集是由柠檬.io 为您带来的。
You've achieved product market fit.
您已经实现了产品市场契合。
You're able to activate, engage, and retain your customers.
您能够激活、吸引并留住客户。
But you don't have the engineers that you need to move as fast as you want to, because it's hard to find great engineers quickly, especially if you're trying to protect your burden rate.
但是，您没有所需的工程师，可以按照您想要的速度快速移动，因为很难快速找到优秀的工程师，特别是当您试图保护自己的负担率时。
Meet lemon.io.
认识柠檬.io。
Lemon.io will quickly match you with skilled senior developers who are all vetted, results oriented, and ready to help you grow.
Lemon.io 将快速为您匹配熟练的高级开发人员，他们都经过审查，以结果为导向，随时准备帮助您成长。
And all that at competitive rates.
所有这一切都以具有竞争力的价格提供。
Startups choose lemon.io because they offer only hand-picked developers with three or more years of experience and strong proven portfolios.
初创公司选择柠檬.io，因为他们只提供精心挑选的具有三年或以上经验和经过验证的强大产品组合的开发人员。
Only 1% of candidates who apply get in, so you can be sure that they offer you only high quality talent.
只有 1% 的申请者能够进入，因此您可以确信他们只为您提供高素质的人才。
And if something ever goes wrong, lemon.io offers you a swift replacement, so that you're kind of hiring with a warranty.
如果出现问题，lemon.io 会为您提供快速更换，这样您就可以在有保修的情况下进行雇用。
Lenny: To learn more, just go to lemon.io/lenny and find your perfect developer or tech team in 48 hours or less.
Lenny：要了解更多信息，只需访问柠檬.io/lenny，即可在 48 小时或更短的时间内找到您完美的开发人员或技术团队。
And if you start the process now, you can claim a special discount exclusively for Lenny's Podcast listeners.
如果您现在开始该流程，您可以申请专为 Lenny's Podcast 听众提供的特别折扣。
15% off your first four weeks of working with your new software developer.
与新软件开发人员合作的前 4 周可享受 15% 的折扣。
Grow faster with an extra pair of hands.
多一双手，成长得更快。
Visit lemon.io/lenny.
访问柠檬.io/lenny。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。
Eppo is a next generation A/B testing platform built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.
Eppo 是 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造的下一代 A/B 测试平台。
Companies like Netlify and Tenfold and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
Netlify、Tenfold 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。
Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern growth team stack.
无论您在哪里工作，进行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代增长团队堆栈集成的商业工具。
This leads to wasted time building internal tools, or trying to run your experiments through a clunky marketing tool.
这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具，或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行实验。
When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved about our experimentation platform was being able to easily slice results by device, by country, and by .
当我在 Airbnb 工作时，我喜欢我们的实验平台的一件事是能够轻松地按设备、国家/地区和按 来分割结果。
Eppo does all that and more, delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytics cycles, and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.
Eppo 做到了这一切，甚至更多，快速提供结果，避免恼人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。
Eppo lets you go beyond basic clickthrough metrics, and instead use your North Star metrics like activation, retention, subscriptions, and payments.
Eppo 让您可以超越基本的点击率指标，而是使用您的北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。
And Eppo supports tests on the front end, the back end, email marketing, and even machine learning clients.
Eppo支持前端、后端、电子邮件营销、甚至机器学习客户端的测试。
Check out Eppo at geteppo.com, get E-P-P-O.com, and 10x your experiment velocity.
在 geteppo.com 上查看 Eppo，获取 E-P-P-O.com，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。
Lenny: Gergely, welcome to the podcast.
莱尼：Gergely，欢迎来到播客。
Gergely Orosz: It's awesome.
Gergely Orosz：太棒了。
Great to be here, Lenny.
很高兴来到这里，莱尼。
Lenny: So I think this is going to be a pretty special and unique podcast.
莱尼：所以我认为这将是一个非常特别和独特的播客。
Your newsletter is the number one technology newsletter on Substack, called the Pragmatic Engineer, by the way.
您的时事通讯是 Substack 上排名第一的技术时事通讯，顺便说一下，称为 Pragmatic Engineer。
My newsletter is the number one business newsletter on Substack, and so we're connected in this really special, weird way, and I thought it would be pretty fun to just explore this weird path that we're on doing this newsletter thing, and in that, help listeners understand the pros and cons of this life, how to go down this route, what it takes to be successful, all that stuff.
我的时事通讯是 Substack 上排名第一的商业时事通讯，所以我们以这种非常特殊、奇怪的方式联系在一起，我认为探索我们正在做这个时事通讯的奇怪路径会很有趣，并帮助听众了解这种生活的利弊，如何走这条路，成功需要什么，所有这些东西。
But before we get into all that, I'd love for you to spend maybe a minute just giving us a little overview of your career, and how you got to where you are today doing this newsletter, and what you spend your time on now.
但在我们讨论这一切之前，我希望您能花一分钟时间向我们简单介绍一下您的职业生涯，以及您是如何达到今天的水平并撰写这份时事通讯的，以及您现在花在什么事情上。
Gergely Orosz: My career started out as what you might consider a pretty typical software engineer career.
Gergely Orosz：我的职业生涯始于您可能认为的非常典型的软件工程师职业。
I graduated from university, I did a computer science degree for a five year program, so I did bachelor's and master's.
我大学毕业，攻读了五年的计算机科学学位，所以我获得了学士和硕士学位。
I worked on the side, I hacked around, built small websites here and there, and during university I worked at a small web agency.
我兼职工作，四处闲逛，到处建立小型网站，大学期间我在一家小型网络机构工作。
And then I worked my way up in the industry.
然后我就在这个行业里一路向上。
So I started off at a consulting company, we were just building for other companies.
所以我从一家咨询公司开始，我们只是为其他公司做服务。
I'm originally from Hungary, in Europe.
我来自欧洲的匈牙利。
I then moved to UK, which was a big step up for me in terms of just getting access to, I guess, more modern software development.
然后我搬到了英国，这对我来说是一个很大的进步，因为我想接触更现代的软件开发。
I was at a consulting company there as well.
我也在那儿的一家咨询公司工作过。
And I moved up to London, which in Europe, I feel it's like the New York of Europe, or even the Silicon Valley, back in the day.
我搬到了伦敦，在欧洲，我觉得它就像欧洲的纽约，甚至是当年的硅谷。
Back before Brexit, it was the biggest tech hub.
早在英国脱欧之前，它就是最大的科技中心。
Gergely Orosz: I worked at an investment bank there, and then on the side I was always building mobile apps, and I got into Skype.
Gergely Orosz：我在那里的一家投资银行工作，然后我一直在开发移动应用程序，然后我开始使用 Skype。
I like to say Skype, but it was Microsoft.
我喜欢说 Skype，但它是微软。
They just bought Skype at that point, and it was a lot more startup-y environment, a lot more fast moving.
他们当时刚刚购买了 Skype，这是一个更加初创的环境，发展更加迅速。
I then moved to another startup where I was a founding engineer of a acquisition.
然后我跳槽到另一家初创公司，在那里我是一家收购公司的创始工程师。
It's a startup called Skyscanner.
这是一家名为 Skyscanner 的初创公司。
And then I ended up at Uber at Amsterdam, where I joined as a senior software engineer, and I became a manager, and then a manager of managers, and it was just...
然后我最终在阿姆斯特丹的 Uber 工作，在那里我担任高级软件工程师，然后我成为一名经理，然后是经理中的经理，这只是......
I feel, looking back at that part of my career, I just felt really growing all the time, just taking each step one step at a time, which gave me a lot of appreciation for all these levels.
我觉得，回顾我职业生涯的那一部分，我感觉自己一直在成长，一步一步地迈出每一步，这让我对所有这些级别都非常感激。
Gergely Orosz: And then, just as I was on this really good career path, I was on the path to being a senior engineering manager, or who knows, one day I might have had a shot of being their director of engineering as well, I decided to leave Uber.
Gergely Orosz：然后，正当我走上这条非常好的职业道路时，我正走在成为一名高级工程经理的道路上，或者谁知道呢，有一天我可能也有机会成为他们的工程总监，我决定离开 Uber。
And we'll talk about it a little later in the podcast, but I didn't plan like this, but I started writing a newsletter.
我们稍后会在播客中讨论它，但我并没有这样计划，但我开始写一份时事通讯。
And now here I am writing a newsletter where a bunch of people are reading it, and it's a really unexpected turn and a really cool life as well.
现在我正在写一份时事通讯，一群人正在阅读它，这是一个非常意想不到的转折，也是一个非常酷的生活。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
On the newsletter, just to give people a little bit of context of how big this has gotten, can you share just a couple stats about the growth of the newsletter, the size, and anything else you want to share there?
在时事通讯上，只是为了让人们了解一下时事通讯的规模有多大，您能否分享一些有关时事通讯的增长、规模以及您想在那里分享的其他内容的统计数据？
Gergely Orosz: Just today I checked and it said 189,000 subscribers.
Gergely Orosz：就在今天，我查了一下，上面说有 189,000 名订阅者。
I think the past 90 days has been growing with 80,000 subscribers, so it's almost a thousand people per day, which is incredible.
我认为过去 90 天订阅者数量已经增长到 80,000 人，所以每天几乎有 1000 人，这令人难以置信。
Because these numbers are huge.
因为这些数字是巨大的。
If you're listening, you're probably thinking, "Wow." And that's how I feel every day as well.
如果您在听，您可能会想：“哇。”这也是我每天的感受。
But I've been writing a blog for many, many years, and these are numbers I never thought it would be.
但我写博客已经很多很多年了，这些数字是我从未想过的。
And the growth just seems to be accelerating.
而且增长似乎正在加速。
There was a tipping point in April where the newsletter was growing...
四月份出现了一个转折点，时事通讯的增长......
In the first about nine months of the newsletter, it got to 50,000 subscribers, and then the next five months, or six or seven months, it went up by another a hundred and something thousand subscribers.
在这份时事通讯的前大约九个月里，它的订阅者达到了 50,000 名，然后在接下来的五个月或六七个月里，它又增加了十万多名订阅者。
This was when Substack introduced recommendations, which has been a massive growth engine, and I guess being one of the top publications, I benefited from it.
当时 Substack 推出了推荐，这是一个巨大的增长引擎，我想作为顶级出版物之一，我从中受益。
But those numbers are again...
但这些数字又……
Gergely Orosz: So this is a paid newsletter as well.
Gergely Orosz：所以这也是一份付费时事通讯。
So there's a free version and a paid version, and there's thousands of people paying for the newsletter.
所以有免费版本和付费版本，有成千上万的人为新闻通讯付费。
It's a single digit percentage, but it's a very, very healthy one.
虽然只有个位数的百分比，但这是一个非常非常健康的百分比。
And again, it just beat all my expectations.
再一次，它超出了我所有的期望。
And I guess we're in similar boats, because our newsletter setup, yours and mine, is somewhat similar.
我想我们的处境相似，因为我们的时事通讯设置，你的和我的，有些相似。
We have plenty of differences as well, but I make most of my revenue from subscriptions, and I don't do sponsorships or ads in the newsletter.
我们也有很多差异，但我的大部分收入来自订阅，而且我不会在时事通讯中进行赞助或广告。
So if people sign up for the free one, they get articles every now and then, and for the paid one, they get it a lot more and in more depth.
因此，如果人们注册免费版，他们会时不时地收到文章，而如果注册付费版，他们会得到更多、更深入的文章。
Lenny: Can you give listeners a sense of just the order of magnitude income you make from this, versus your cushy tech job at Uber?
莱尼：你能否让听众了解一下，与你在 Uber 轻松的技术工作相比，你从中获得的收入有多大？
You don't have to share numbers or anything like that.
您不必共享号码或类似的东西。
Gergely Orosz: Yeah.
盖尔盖伊·奥罗斯：是的。
I'll share a little numbers of my cushy tech job at Uber.
我将分享一些我在 Uber 轻松的技术工作的经历。
I was in Europe, and European tech salaries, or I'll say total compensation, will be lower than for example the U.S., but it'll be higher than let's say regions like India or Indonesia.
我在欧洲，欧洲技术人员的工资，或者我会说总薪酬，将低于美国，但会高于印度或印度尼西亚等地区。
There's regional differences, and this is true for big tech as well.
存在地区差异，对于大型科技公司来说也是如此。
Uber was a good example on this.
Uber 就是一个很好的例子。
But in my best year at Uber, I made about 320 or $330,000 in total compensation.
但在我在 Uber 最好的一年里，我的总薪酬约为 320 美元或 33 万美元。
This was after Uber went public, so it includes the stock, the base salary, the bonus, which was very, very good in Europe.
这是Uber上市之后，所以它包括了股票、底薪、奖金，这在欧洲是非常非常好的。
And when I quit my job, I was actually thinking, "Am I crazy?
当我辞职时，我实际上在想：“我疯了吗？
Because I'm leaving..." Especially in Europe, this is a lot of money this will be similar to something...
因为我要离开......”特别是在欧洲，这是很多钱，这将类似于......
Someone in a similar position would've made five or 600 K in total in the U.S.
处于类似职位的人在美国总共可以赚到 5 到 60 万美元。
Gergely Orosz: So I walked away from that, and I was pretty sure that I'll just a lot less, but I'll enjoy what I'm doing, or I'll have...
Gergely Orosz：所以我放弃了，我很确定我会少很多，但我会享受我正在做的事情，或者我会......
I'll just give it a go.
我就试一试。
But now I am making more in compensation that I made at Uber.
但现在我赚的报酬比在 Uber 赚的还要多。
And the difference is that now my compensation, my earnings, keep going up as long as the newsletter is growing, so there's no theoretical cap on this.
不同的是，现在只要时事通讯不断增长，我的薪酬、我的收入就会不断增加，所以理论上没有上限。
Of course there is an actual cap, there's churn, growth is slowing over time, but it's very, very strange, because I felt that I was in a really privileged position, just honestly making tons of money, doing a job that I loved.
当然，有一个实际的上限，有流失，随着时间的推移增长正在放缓，但这非常非常奇怪，因为我觉得我处于一个非常特权的位置，只是诚实地赚了很多钱，做着我喜欢的工作。
And this was at Uber or as a software engineer.
这是在 Uber 或作为一名软件工程师。
And I'm now doing stuff that I love, and in some strange way, I guess it even pays better.
我现在正在做我喜欢的事情，而且以某种奇怪的方式，我想它甚至能带来更好的报酬。
Part of it is just luck, part of this is situational.
部分是运气，部分是环境因素。
I think we're going to talk a bit more about this.
我想我们要多讨论一下这个问题。
But this was very, very surprising and very unexpected for me.
但这对我来说是非常非常令人惊讶和出乎意料的。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
That's a great segue to the first thing I want to talk about, but just to frame what I want to spend our time on today, there's these four areas I want to explore.
这是我想谈的第一件事的一个很好的延续，但为了框架我今天想花时间做什么，我想探索以下四个领域。
One is your decision to leave and start this life of writing, which is a very non-traditional life.
一是你决定离开并开始这种写作生活，这是一种非常非传统的生活。
Two is what the life of a paid newsletter person is like.
二是付费通讯人的生活是什么样的。
What do you do all day?
你整天都做什么？
How do you find time to do this?
你如何找到时间来做这件事？
How do you produce so much content?
这么多内容是怎么制作出来的？
Three, what it takes to be successful at this.
第三，要取得成功需要什么。
A lot of people...
很多人...
I always say it's easy to start a newsletter, hard to keep it going, and I'm curious what you find is important to be successful.
我总是说，开始撰写时事通讯很容易，维持下去却很困难，我很好奇您发现什么对成功很重要。
And then four, how do you get started if you want to start your own newsletter?
第四，如果你想创办自己的时事通讯，如何开始？
Lenny: But before I get into that, I just wanted to add a thought that I had.
莱尼：但在开始之前，我只想补充一个我的想法。
The way I think about this life in terms of comparing to the old job is, one, it feels instead of one boss, I have thousands of micro bosses, and one of them can fire me and many do every day, but it feels safer than at a tech job where one person can decide.
与以前的工作相比，我对这种生活的看法是，第一，感觉我有成千上万个小老板，而不是一个老板，其中一个可以解雇我，而且很多人每天都这样做，但这感觉比从事一个人可以决定的技术工作更安全。
And then the other piece is, assuming it keeps growing, you're getting a raise almost every day, every week, depending on the growth rate, and that's cool.
然后另一件事是，假设它持续增长，你几乎每天、每周都会得到加薪，具体取决于增长率，这很酷。
Gergely Orosz: That is really cool.
Gergely Orosz：这真的很酷。
I had a spreadsheet that I maintained for the first year of the publication, where I listed, for every article, how much did my annual revenue go up a week later.
我有一个在出版物第一年维护的电子表格，其中列出了每篇文章一周后我的年收入增加了多少。
So tracking what was the impact.
因此跟踪影响是什么。
And the crazy thing was that, when I wrote a really good article that resonated with people, sometimes it was an article that I thought was mediocre and people still loved it it was a really good article that I put tons of work in, I saw myself getting a raise.
疯狂的是，当我写了一篇真正能引起人们共鸣的好文章时，有时我认为这是一篇平庸的文章，但人们仍然喜欢它，这是一篇我投入了大量工作的好文章，我看到自己得到了加薪。
And this is just something you just don't get in corporate.
而这正是你在公司里得不到的东西。
I mean, it's by design, and there's a lot of good stuff about it, but I feel that this life, and we'll touch more on this, but there's a lot of surprising things, both good and bad, but this is a really good one.
我的意思是，这是设计的，有很多好的东西，但我觉得这一生，我们会更多地接触这一点，但有很多令人惊讶的事情，有好有坏，但这确实是一件好事。
So for doing something awesome, you can just give yourself a raise, especially because this is just like you, mine is also a one person business right now.
所以，为了做一些很棒的事情，你可以给自己加薪，特别是因为这就像你一样，我现在也是一个人的生意。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
Okay.
好的。
So you're at Uber, you're making hundreds of thousands of dollars writing code, it's pretty sweet.
所以你在 Uber，通过编写代码赚了数十万美元，这真是太棒了。
Uber's growing.
优步正在成长。
You probably got all these RSUs that are going to keep accumulating.
您可能会获得所有这些会不断累积的 RSU。
It's pretty good.
非常好。
And you decide, "I'm going to try to make money on the internet writing," which is an obvious way to make a lot of money.
然后你决定，“我要尝试通过网络写作赚钱”，这是一个显而易见的赚大钱的方式。
Not.
不是。
And so I'm curious, what got you to leave that job and explore writing and get to this writing path?
所以我很好奇，是什么让你离开那份工作并探索写作并走上这条写作道路？
Gergely Orosz: The short of it is, it was a promise to myself, and COVID, and Uber doing layoffs.
Gergely Orosz：简而言之，这是对我自己、新冠疫情和 Uber 裁员的承诺。
And the longer version is that, when I joined Uber, before Uber I was...
更长的版本是，当我加入 Uber 时，在 Uber 之前我......
Now we're talking numbers on my old job, but I was working in London as a principal engineer at Skyscanner.
现在我们谈论的是我以前工作的数字，但我当时在伦敦担任 Skyscanner 的首席工程师。
Skyscanner was a unicorn, one of the few unicorns in the UK, UK headquartered and all that, and I was making like 90-something thousand pounds in base salary, which is maybe a 120, 130, or $140,000, depends on how the pound is doing, or sometimes these days it's almost just the same.
Skyscanner 是一家独角兽公司，是英国为数不多的独角兽公司之一，总部位于英国等等，而我的基本工资大约是 90 多英镑，可能是 120、130 或 14 万美元，这取决于英镑的走势，有时有时几乎是一样的。
But back then that was a really good...
但在当时，这确实是一件好事……
And this was most of it.
这就是大部分了。
I got some stock as well.
我也有一些库存。
And I thought I was close to the top of the market in London.
我认为我已经接近伦敦市场的顶部了。
I knew people, and it seemed this was a really good compensation package.
我认识一些人，这似乎是一个非常好的薪酬方案。
Gergely Orosz: And then Uber called me up saying, "Do you want to interview?" I interviewed with them, they gave me an offer, and I negotiated, and they basically doubled my compensation.
Gergely Orosz：然后 Uber 打电话给我说：“你想接受采访吗？”我面试了他们，他们给了我一份offer，我进行了谈判，他们基本上把我的薪酬翻了一番。
I was like, wow, this is I knew about Silicon Valley compensation, but I assumed that you're not going to get this, but Uber was getting something closer to that.
我当时想，哇，这是我所知道的硅谷薪酬，但我以为你不会得到这个，但 Uber 正在接近这个水平。
So I told myself, all right, so I'm getting a really good deal, and most of it is stock, which is...
所以我告诉自己，好吧，所以我得到了一笔非常划算的交易，而且大部分都是库存，这是......
Uber 2016, no-one knew if Uber will go public, although I suspected, because they contacted me to build a payments team so do a SOX compliant payment system.
Uber 2016，没有人知道 Uber 是否会上市，尽管我怀疑，因为他们联系我建立一个支付团队，所以要做一个符合 SOX 的支付系统。
And you need a SOX compliant payment system if you want to go IPO.
如果您想进行 IPO，您需要一个符合 SOX 的支付系统。
Lenny: That's funny.
莱尼：这很有趣。
It reminds me at Airbnb, there's all these people trying to figure out, when are we going to go public?
这让我想起在 Airbnb，所有这些人都在想，我们什么时候上市？
And then there's the team working on SOX stuff and Sarbanes-Oxley, this is good.
然后还有团队致力于 SOX 和萨班斯-奥克斯利法案，这很好。
Gergely Orosz: Yeah.
盖尔盖伊·奥罗斯：是的。
So anyway, I said, all right, this is a massive lottery ticket.
所以无论如何，我说，好吧，这是一张巨大的彩票。
If it goes in, every year I make two years of salary, pretty much.
如果进去的话，每年我的工资就相当于两年的工资，差不多了。
That's how I was thinking.
我就是这么想的。
But if not, again, don't forget I'm in Europe where we're used to not seeing any returns on stock.
但如果没有，请再次记住，我在欧洲，我们习惯于看不到任何股票回报。
So European software engineers will not value stock as much, because they just haven't seen success stories.
因此欧洲软件工程师不会那么看重股票，因为他们只是还没有看到成功的故事。
So I told myself, if four years later Uber exits and I make a bunch of money, I owe it to myself to take a risk, because then I'll have four years of savings in my bank, which...
所以我告诉自己，如果四年后 Uber 退出，我赚了一大笔钱，我就应该承担风险，因为那样我的银行里就会有四年的积蓄，这……
Back then I had maybe six months of savings or something.
那时我大概有六个月的积蓄什么的。
So this was the promise to myself.
所以这是对我自己的承诺。
Gergely Orosz: And then I probably would've forgotten about this, but four years later, almost on the dot, COVID starts, and it really hit super hard.
Gergely Orosz：然后我可能会忘记这件事，但四年后，几乎就在这一点上，新冠疫情开始了，而且打击真的非常严重。
We're laying off people, we had to lay off 20% of the engineers.
我们正在裁员，我们不得不解雇 20% 的工程师。
I was already managing a group of about 30 people, I had managers under me, and 20% of the people or 15% had to be let go.
我已经管理了一个大约30人的团队，我手下有经理，20%或15%的人必须被解雇。
And I was thinking to myself, what am I doing here?
我心里想，我在这里做什么？
I looked ahead, Uber was going to have a really bad year, I'm going to have to manage morale.
我展望未来，Uber 将度过非常糟糕的一年，我将不得不管理士气。
Up to then, I'd helped put together this team, and we had a really good charter, and we had to throw that charter out the window, because it made no sense with the economic reality.
在那之前，我已经帮助组建了这个团队，我们有一个非常好的章程，但我们不得不把这个章程扔到窗外，因为它与经济现实毫无意义。
So I thought back, and I told myself, if I'll be here, I'll take a risk, and I'll try to do something else.
所以我回想起来，我告诉自己，如果我在这里，我会冒险，我会尝试做点别的事情。
So I was like, all right, let me pull this trigger.
所以我想，好吧，让我扣动扳机。
Gergely Orosz: And my plan was very simple.
Gergely Orosz：我的计划非常简单。
Leave Uber and start a startup, raise venture capital, because I haven't done that before but it kind of runs in the family.
离开 Uber，创办一家初创公司，筹集风险投资，因为我以前没有这样做过，但这是家族传承的。
My brother's on his second startup, and he sold his first one to Skyscanner, and now he's building this startup called Craft Docs.
我哥哥正在创办第二家公司，他将第一家公司卖给了 Skyscanner，现在他正在创办一家名为 Craft Docs 的公司。
It's a really slick document editing system, they just raised their series B.
这是一个非常流畅的文档编辑系统，他们刚刚推出了 B 系列。
So through him I know startup life is, and I felt I never did that, I always worked at big companies.
所以通过他我知道创业生活是这样的，我觉得我从来没有这样做过，我一直在大公司工作。
Gergely Orosz: So my plan was leave Uber, raise money, and do something on platform engineering.
Gergely Orosz：所以我的计划是离开 Uber，筹集资金，并在平台工程方面做一些事情。
A classic way that Uber alumni start businesses is, Uber has invested silly amounts of money to build everything custom internally.
Uber 校友创业的一个经典方式是，Uber 投入大量资金在内部定制一切。
Everything that you can think of.
你能想到的一切。
Our system was custom, our experimentation system, our container, the way we automatically set that up, a lot of the engineering stuff.
我们的系统是定制的，我们的实验系统，我们的容器，我们自动设置的方式，很多工程内容。
So a lot of Uber alumni just leave, and whatever they saw there, they just build it for the world to use, because no other company really does what Uber does, because it makes no sense, but a lot of them will pay for.
因此，很多 Uber 校友就离开了，无论他们在那里看到了什么，他们只是将其构建起来供全世界使用，因为没有其他公司真正做 Uber 所做的事情，因为这没有意义，但他们中的很多人都会付费。
Gergely Orosz: That was the plan.
Gergely Orosz：这就是计划。
But before I wanted to finish a book.
但在我想完成一本书之前。
I'd been writing this book for, it was coming up to a year, called the Software Engineer's Guidebook, which is just my advice for people to grow professionally in the field.
我写这本书已经快一年了，叫做《软件工程师指南》，这只是我对人们在该领域专业发展的建议。
And I figured, all right, let me leave the company, in six months I'll write the book, I'll just use my savings to take a break, and then I'll raise the venture capital.
我想，好吧，让我离开公司，六个月后我会写这本书，我会用我的积蓄休息一下，然后我会筹集风险投资。
And what happened was, I started to write this book, but I got sidetracked, I started to have fun online in terms of...
发生的事情是，我开始写这本书，但我分心了，我开始在网上享受乐趣......
I was writing on Twitter, on my blog.
我在 Twitter 和我的博客上写文章。
I accidentally published a book called Building Mobile Apps at Scale.
我无意中出版了一本名为《大规模构建移动应用程序》的书。
I just did it for a few months.
我刚做了几个月。
Gergely Orosz: And the weird thing was that my plan was that I'm going to just not make any money, and this book, Building Mobile Apps at Scale, and another book that I published about tech resumes, I just wrote these in a few months, they started making money.
Gergely Orosz：奇怪的是，我的计划是不赚钱，而这本书《大规模构建移动应用程序》以及我出版的另一本关于技术简历的书，我在几个月内写了这些，他们就开始赚钱了。
They made about $100,000 in the first year.
第一年他们赚了大约10万美元。
And I was like, "That's interesting.
我当时想，“这很有趣。
People are buying my books." And I self-published it through Gumroad or places where I get to keep I think 90% of the revenue, but still, this was really interesting.
人们正在购买我的书。”我通过 Gumroad 或我认为 90% 收入的地方自行出版了它，但这仍然非常有趣。
And I got to the point where, all right, I should now start a startup.
好吧，我现在应该开始创业了。
I should do fundraising and do all that.
我应该筹款并做所有这些。
And then I asked myself, why do I really want to do that?
然后我问自己，为什么我真的想这么做？
Gergely Orosz: And the answer was two reasons.
Gergely Orosz：答案有两个原因。
One is, I love working in small teams at Uber.
一是，我喜欢在 Uber 的小团队中工作。
I'll be honest, I didn't really enjoy being a manager of managers.
说实话，我不太喜欢当经理的经理。
It felt a bit too abstract.
感觉有点太抽象了。
I didn't like being in the meetings, not doing the work.
我不喜欢参加会议，也不喜欢做工作。
What I really liked is when we had a small team, and we had this really big vision, and it was us against the world.
我真正喜欢的是当我们有一个小团队，我们有一个非常大的愿景，这是我们对抗世界。
We were like ten of us, and we were just getting stuff done, we were putting out fires, it was so much fun.
我们大概有十个人，我们只是在做事，我们在灭火，这真是太有趣了。
So that was one of the reasons I wanted to do startup.
这就是我想创业的原因之一。
I was hoping to recreate this feeling.
我希望能够重现这种感觉。
Gergely Orosz: And the other thing, honestly, was money.
Gergely Orosz：老实说，另一件事是钱。
This was in 2021 before the market crashed.
那是在 2021 年市场崩溃之前。
Just doing the maths, if you found a company, and I'll be a CEO and the founder, maybe I'll have a co-founder, this becomes a unicorn, by that time we will have raised five rounds of funding or six, I'll be diluted as hell, but I'll still have let's say 5%.
算一下，如果你找到一家公司，我将成为首席执行官和创始人，也许我会有联合创始人，这将成为独角兽，到那时我们将筹集五轮或六轮融资，我将被稀释得非常厉害，但我仍然会拥有比方说 5% 的股份。
5% of the billion is still $50 million, after you pay taxes I can buy a bunch of stuff that I don't need.
10亿的5%还是5000万美元，你交税后我可以买一堆我不需要的东西。
And I was asking myself, all right, and then what?
我问自己，好吧，然后呢？
And I was like, after I've bought everything that I don't need, I probably want to share what I know with people, do YouTube videos and write books.
我当时想，在我买了所有我不需要的东西之后，我可能想与人们分享我所知道的东西，制作 YouTube 视频和写书。
Gergely Orosz: And I was thinking to myself, so hold on.
Gergely Orosz：我心里想，所以坚持住。
I would go off and do this for like ten years, because that's how much you need to plan to do it.
我会继续做这件事大约十年，因为这就是你需要计划的时间。
I need to stop doing what I'm doing right now, because I would owe it to my investors and my team to not spend all day on the internet writing about stuff.
我需要停止做我现在正在做的事情，因为我应该感谢我的投资者和我的团队，不要整天在互联网上写东西。
And then I want to do it again.
然后我想再做一次。
So it's reminding me of the story of this fisherman.
这让我想起了这个渔夫的故事。
There's one that goes there's the same thing of, you work really hard to do what you're doing right now.
有句话说的是同样的事情，你非常努力地做你现在正在做的事情。
So I decided, let me just try giving this a go.
所以我决定，让我尝试一下。
Lenny: Wait, what's the story of the fisherman?
莱尼：等等，渔夫的故事是什么？
I think I know what you're talking about, but...
我想我知道你在说什么，但是...
Gergely Orosz: The story of the fisherman is that, in Mexico, an American businessman sees a fisherman who's just chilling, fishing.
Gergely Orosz：渔夫的故事是这样的，在墨西哥，一位美国商人看到一位正在钓鱼的渔夫。
And he asks him, "What are you doing all day?" He's like, "I fish for three hours, I hang out with my family, I chill and I sleep in every Saturday and Sunday." He says, "All right, here's what you should be doing.
他问他：“你一整天都在做什么？”他说，“我钓鱼三个小时，和家人一起出去玩，我放松一下，每个周六和周日我都会睡懒觉。”他说：“好吧，这就是你应该做的。
You should fish not three hours, but you should fish five days a week, eight hours a day, sell that fish, turn over a profit, hire more people to do it, then start to be head of all those people, then sell your fishing company." He's like, "Okay.
你不应该钓鱼三个小时，但你应该每周钓鱼五天，每天八小时，卖掉鱼，扭亏为盈，雇佣更多的人来做这件事，然后开始成为所有这些人的负责人，然后卖掉你的渔业公司。”他就像是，“好吧。
And then what?" "And then you can actually buy an island, and you can just fish for three hours, you can sleep in on Saturdays and sleep on Sundays."
然后呢？” “然后你实际上可以买一个岛，你可以钓鱼三个小时，你可以在周六睡懒觉，在周日睡觉。”
Gergely Orosz: So I was thinking, look, I have savings.
Gergely Orosz：所以我在想，看，我有积蓄。
I don't have huge, but I have it for...
我没有很大的，但我有它......
I can still take a risk.
我仍然可以冒险。
So let me take a risk on writing.
所以让我冒一下写作的风险。
And I was thinking originally of just spending more time to finish my book.
我本来想花更多时间来完成我的书。
But what I didn't like about books, even though I was making money, is they're really...
但我不喜欢书籍的一点是，尽管我在赚钱，但它们真的......
It's hard to predict if you're going to be making a living, or there's some people who actually like this excitement, but I didn't like it.
很难预测你是否会谋生，或者是否有人真的喜欢这种兴奋，但我不喜欢它。
I didn't know if today I'm going to be making like 50 bucks or 10 bucks or 300 bucks.
我不知道今天我会赚 50 美元、10 美元还是 300 美元。
So I was like, interesting.
所以我觉得很有趣。
There's these paid newsletters which I've been thinking about, and you were one of the few people who shared some of your early numbers, and I figured this could be interesting, because it's recurring revenue.
我一直在考虑这些付费时事通讯，你是少数几个分享了一些早期数据的人之一，我认为这可能很有趣，因为它是经常性收入。
Gergely Orosz: And the only reason I was really hesitant to start a paid newsletter, I was thinking about doing so for at least 6 to 12 months, is I was worried about writing every single week something really, really worthwhile reading, and it's a lot of work.
Gergely Orosz：我真的很犹豫是否要开始付费时事通讯，我考虑这样做至少 6 到 12 个月，唯一的原因是我担心每周都要写一些真正非常值得阅读的东西，而且需要做很多工作。
But then I looked back and I saw that I wrote three books.
但后来我回头一看，我发现我写了三本书。
I told you I wrote two books, but there was a third one that I also published in a year, and I was like, I'm pretty sure I can write.
我告诉过你我写了两本书，但一年内我还出版了第三本书，我当时想，我很确定我能写。
So for two weeks I collected ideas of what I would write about, and I had this super long list.
因此，我花了两周的时间收集了我要写的内容的想法，并且我有了这个超长的清单。
So I was like, okay, ideas also check.
所以我想，好吧，想法也要检查。
Gergely Orosz: And then I just said, screw it, I'm going to take a risk.
Gergely Orosz：然后我就说，管他的，我要冒险。
It's a bit of a more professional risk, and maybe a financial one as well.
这是一种更专业的风险，也许还有财务风险。
I'll announce that I'm going to start a paid newsletter.
我将宣布我将开始付费时事通讯。
Every week, I'm going to write something really in depth about software engineering.
每周，我都会写一些关于软件工程的非常深入的文章。
It's going to start next week.
一切将于下周开始。
And I told myself that I'll...
我告诉自己我会...
I told my wife as well that I'll do this for six months, and I'll see what happens.
我也告诉我的妻子，我会这样做六个月，看看会发生什么。
If there's traction, it's great.
如果有牵引力，那就太好了。
I might have found myself a new job, basically.
基本上我可能已经找到了一份新工作。
If not, I'll just refund people.
如果没有，我就退款给人们。
Everyone who bought an annual subscription...
每个购买年度订阅的人...
I didn't tell this to people, obviously, but for six months I'm going to give it my all.
显然，我没有告诉人们这一点，但在六个月内我将全力以赴。
It's basically like a startup.
它基本上就像一家初创公司。
So I told her and my family that it's going to be a lot of work and I might not be around as much, and they supported me, and I took a plunge.
所以我告诉她和我的家人，这将是一项繁重的工作，而且我可能不会经常在身边，他们支持我，我就冒险了。
I took a big breath and started off.
我深深地吸了一口气，然后开始了。
And that's how it went from leaving Uber to starting a venture funded startup to starting to write full time.
这就是从离开 Uber 到创办一家风投资助的初创公司，再到开始全职写作的经历。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
And we're going to talk about what advice you have for folks that are thinking about starting something like this at the end.
我们将讨论您对那些正在考虑开始这样的事情的人最后有什么建议。
What was the period between leaving Uber and starting the newsletter?
离开 Uber 到开始发布时事通讯之间经历了多长时间？
Gergely Orosz: It was pretty much a year, a little bit less than a year.
Gergely Orosz：差不多一年了，甚至不到一年。
Might have been like ten months or so, but it was a year from when I decided to leave Uber.
可能是十个月左右，但距离我决定离开 Uber 已经过去一年了。
So Uber did layoffs in April, and it was really stressful.
所以Uber在4月份就做了裁员，压力确实很大。
It was the first time I...
这是我第一次...
I didn't lay anyone off, but people on my team were laid off.
我没有解雇任何人，但我团队的人被解雇了。
I wasn't told who's going to be laid off.
我没有被告知谁将被解雇。
It was just really stressful.
压力真的很大。
It's weird, in the sense that the people who were let go, obviously worse for them, but I still felt terrible, and I just didn't feel very good about it.
这很奇怪，因为那些被解雇的人显然对他们来说更糟，但我仍然感觉很糟糕，我只是感觉不太好。
I think this was the breaking point.
我认为这是转折点。
This was the point where I realized that it's not a family, which is weird because it never was, but it kind of felt family-like, but it's just a corporate, and I'm just a number, and this could happen to me, I guess.
正是在这一点上，我意识到这不是一个家庭，这很奇怪，因为它从来都不是，但感觉有点像家庭，但它只是一个公司，我只是一个数字，我想这可能会发生在我身上。
So I think I lost my sense of the trust in the system, that it'll take care of me, because I saw some of my colleagues who were really good professionals, I'd argue they were better software engineers and managers than me, they got let go because they were in the wrong team.
所以我认为我失去了对系统的信任，它会照顾我，因为我看到一些同事是非常优秀的专业人士，我认为他们是比我更好的软件工程师和经理，他们被解雇了，因为他们在错误的团队中。
Gergely Orosz: So this was April, and in July I went to a holiday, and two weeks in, I just realized I need to leave.
Gergely Orosz：那是四月，七月我去度假，两周后，我才意识到我需要离开。
And I really had the urge to do somewhere where I'm in charge.
我真的很想去做我负责的事情。
And if you're a manager listening to this, you might relate to this.
如果您是一名经理，正在聆听此内容，您可能会对此产生共鸣。
If you're an engineer listening to this, maybe just shut your ears or you'll figure it out eventually.
如果你是一名听到这个的工程师，也许闭上你的耳朵，否则你最终会明白的。
But when I was promoted into management...
但当我升任管理层时...
It wasn't promoting into it, because it was a side step, I didn't get or anything, but it still feels a promotion.
这并不是在晋升，因为这是一个侧面步骤，我没有得到任何东西，但它仍然感觉是一种晋升。
They only promote the people who are...
他们只提拔那些...
Only let people transition who are considered pretty good.
只让那些被认为相当优秀的人过渡。
I felt this would be a big deal.
我觉得这会是一件大事。
I'm now a manager.
我现在是一名经理。
What no one told me is, yes I was a manager, but I was a middle manager.
没有人告诉我的是，是的，我是一名经理，但我是一名中层经理。
I didn't have too much authority.
我没有太多的权力。
I didn't even have budget for my team.
我什至没有为我的团队提供预算。
Someone was underpaid and I couldn't do anything except complain for HR for six months and hope that they'd do something.
有人工资过低，我除了向人力资源部抱怨六个月并希望他们能做点什么之外，什么也做不了。
Gergely Orosz: So it was pretty frustrating, because I didn't feel in charge in the sense that I didn't have decision making .
Gergely Orosz：所以这非常令人沮丧，因为我感觉自己没有责任，因为我没有决策权。
And the reason I wanted to do a startup is, I decided I liked being a manager, but I did not how I was not in charge and I couldn't take corporate telling us to do stuff, and then we were telling them no I don't want to do that with my people.
我想创业的原因是，我决定我喜欢当一名经理，但我不知道我不负责，我不能接受公司告诉我们做的事情，然后我们告诉他们不，我不想和我的员工一起做这些事。
So I decided for next job, I could be doing this, but instead I'd like to be in charge.
所以我决定下一份工作，我可以做这个，但我想负责。
So I'd like to be a founder or someone who's high up, so that I can actually take full responsibility for the things that I want to do or I don't want to do.
所以我想成为一个创始人或者一个高位的人，这样我就可以真正对我想做或不想做的事情承担全部责任。
The short of it is, I decided to leave in July.
简而言之，我决定在七月离开。
We have longer notice periods in Europe, so I served a longer notice period, and then left.
我们在欧洲有更长的通知期，所以我接受了更长的通知期，然后离开了。
But it was a year after the decision.
但那是在做出决定一年后。
Lenny: Let's talk about what your life is like these days, writing a newsletter full time.
莱尼：我们来谈谈你现在的生活是怎样的，全职写时事通讯。
People might be listening and be like, "Man, $300,000 for writing an email a couple times a week, that's pretty sweet." So I want to talk about the good and the bad of this life.
人们听了之后可能会说，“伙计，每周写几次电子邮件就能赚 30 万美元，这真是太好了。”所以我想谈谈这一生的好与坏。
So maybe to start, how many posts are you putting out a week?
那么首先，您每周发布多少帖子？
Gergely Orosz: I started the newsletter saying I'm going to post once a week.
Gergely Orosz：我在开始时事通讯时说我将每周发布一次。
You'll have one pinned up post.
您将收到一篇固定的帖子。
And I started to do that, but interesting enough, eventually I upped it to two, so I now promise people two posts a week.
我开始这样做，但很有趣，最终我把它增加到两个，所以我现在向人们承诺每周发两个帖子。
There's more in depth and more timeless posts about some software engineering topic on Tuesdays, and there's something that's called the scoop, something a bit more timely, where I reflect or analyze what's going on in the market, interesting stuff I'm hearing.
周二会有关于一些软件工程主题的更深入、更永恒的帖子，还有一些叫做独家新闻的东西，一些更及时的东西，我在其中反映或分析市场上正在发生的事情，我听到的有趣的东西。
And every now and then there's a bonus post.
而且时不时还会有奖励帖子。
So I'll say two on average, but the second one came a lot later.
所以我会说平均有两个，但第二个来得晚了很多。
But initially in the first few months I was like, I have this one post per week, and it needs to be good.
但最初在最初的几个月里，我想，我每周都会发布一篇文章，而且它必须是好的。
Gergely Orosz: And it was interesting, because you would think writing a post a week is not a big deal.
Gergely Orosz：这很有趣，因为你会认为每周写一篇文章没什么大不了的。
It's easy.
这很容易。
As you said, let's say you're making 300K just writing one post a week.
正如你所说，假设你每周只写一篇文章就能赚 30 万。
But it actually was pretty stressful in the beginning, because it turns out to write that post, it takes at least a few days or sometimes even longer.
但其实一开始压力还是挺大的，因为原来写那篇文章至少需要几天时间，有时甚至更长。
Sometimes it takes a week or two for me to research in terms of talking with people.
有时我需要一两周的时间来研究与人交谈的方式。
I chose topics that are not covered, because why would people pay for something that is out there already or well known?
我选择了未涵盖的主题，因为为什么人们会为已经存在或众所周知的东西付费？
Then I need to write a first draft.
然后我需要写初稿。
I get some feedback from people who I trust often, not always, but I often do.
我经常从我信任的人那里得到一些反馈，虽然并非总是如此，但我经常这样做。
And then there's an editing phase where I work with an editor who helps make sure that it's just correct.
然后是编辑阶段，我与编辑一起工作，帮助确保它是正确的。
And all these things add up.
所有这些加起来。
Even if I only spend a day researching the stuff, it's a day researching, then I have a draft on day two.
即使我只花一天时间研究这些东西，也是一天的研究，然后第二天我就有了草稿。
Day three I get feedback, on day four it's editing, it's almost a whole week.
第三天收到反馈，第四天开始编辑，几乎整整一周。
Gergely Orosz: So I was working on parallel things at the same time, and I was often running against the deadline, I was barely finishing it, which is not what I was expecting initially.
Gergely Orosz：所以我同时在做一些并行的事情，而且我经常在最后期限前赶时间，我勉强完成它，这不是我最初的预期。
The first few months I feel was a bit more stressed, but again, the good thing is I cleared my calendar, so I said I'm not talking with anyone, I'm just doing this.
最初的几个月我感觉压力更大一些，但同样，好的事情是我清理了我的日历，所以我说我不和任何人说话，我只是做这件事。
So in that sense it was good.
所以从这个意义上说，这是好的。
But the one thing I realized, if you look at any journalists who's doing stuff full time, and they're writing, not these clickbait articles, but actually in depth.
但我意识到一件事，如果你看看那些全职做事的记者，你会发现他们写的不是这些标题党文章，而是真正深入的文章。
You look at the Washington Post or New York Times, search for their name, and look up the articles that they write, and they're going to be longer articles.
你看看《华盛顿邮报》或《纽约时报》，搜索他们的名字，并查找他们写的文章，它们将是较长的文章。
They have like one a month.
他们一个月就有一次。
Seriously.
严重地。
You look at the investigative journalist, they might even have less.
你看看调查记者，他们可能更少。
And they have a bit of a different level, they have to check with legal and all those things, but my editor is a journalist, so he was actually telling me, even back then, "You actually write a lot of original stuff," because a lot of my emails are about five, 6,000 words, which is considered very long.
他们的水平有点不同，他们必须检查法律和所有这些事情，但我的编辑是一名记者，所以即使在当时，他实际上也在告诉我，“你实际上写了很多原创的东西”，因为我的很多电子邮件大约有五、六千字，这被认为很长。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
When you said that people listening might be like, one post a week is easy, I think most people are the opposite.
当你说人们听的时候可能会说，每周发一篇文章很容易，我认为大多数人都是相反的。
They're just like, I can't write anything.
他们就像，我什么也写不了。
I don't have time for any writing.
我没有时间写任何东西。
How can you ever write one good thing a week?
你怎么能每周写一篇好文章呢？
So I think there's both sides to it.
所以我认为这有两面性。
And it's cool that you shared the process.
很高兴你分享了这个过程。
Do you have a specific cadence per post?
每个帖子有特定的节奏吗？
It's like Monday draft, Tuesday review, Wednesday editor.
就像周一草稿，周二审稿，周三编辑。
Is that how you work?
你就是这样工作的吗？
Gergely Orosz: I write every post over multiple weeks, most of them.
Gergely Orosz：每一篇文章都是我在数周内写成的，其中大部分都是我写的。
Some of them I might be able to write faster, but what I now have is, nowadays I actually write two articles.
有些我可能可以写得更快，但是我现在拥有的是，现在我实际上写了两篇文章。
So I have the Thursday that is the scoop, which actually is a lot easier for me to write, interestingly enough.
所以我周四就有了独家新闻，这对我来说实际上更容易写，很有趣。
And my cadence is, on Monday I finish up the last of the post that goes out on Tuesday.
我的节奏是，周一我完成周二发布的最后一篇文章。
It's just small edits, but it's already done pretty much, so it's just a few small tweaks, and maybe I have some feedback coming in.
这只是一些小的编辑，但它已经完成了很多，所以这只是一些小的调整，也许我会收到一些反馈。
On Tuesday, I publish this post, and I do some free writing.
周二，我发布了这篇文章，并且做了一些自由写作。
I write about some other ideas that I have that's going to be future posts.
我写了一些我的其他想法，这些想法将在以后的帖子中发表。
On Wednesday, it's my free day in between, where I...
周三，这是我的空闲日，我...
It's interesting, because what I feel is, when I don't have pressure, I tend to not do much stuff, which might just...
这很有趣，因为我的感觉是，当我没有压力时，我往往不会做太多事情，这可能只是......
My mind's saying, "You just need to chill." Maybe that's it.
我的心在说：“你只需要冷静一下。”也许就是这样。
Gergely Orosz: But one thing I miss from the corporate world...
Gergely Orosz：但我怀念企业界的一件事......
And if you're listening and you're in a job and you're thinking, "Gergely's job is so amazing," one thing that I liked and I really miss about working at Uber is, I actually had a schedule.
如果你正在听，并且正在工作，你会想，“Gergely 的工作太棒了”，我喜欢并且非常怀念在 Uber 工作的一件事是，我实际上有一个时间表。
This is weird, I hated it back then, but I needed to do these things, and whenever you have a pressure, you do it.
这很奇怪，我当时讨厌它，但我需要做这些事情，每当你有压力时，你就会做。
And this works with my newsletter.
这适用于我的时事通讯。
I put in the second newsletter I think to have a bit more pressure.
我放入第二份时事通讯，我认为会有更大的压力。
Because the second part of Wednesday, I'm already starting to write my Thursday newsletter.
因为周三的下半部分，我已经开始写周四的时事通讯了。
On Thursday, I write that Thursday newsletter, and on Friday I'm now writing the next newsletter for Tuesday.
周四，我写周四的时事通讯，周五我正在写周二的下一份时事通讯。
So almost every day except for Wednesday, I have a strong pressure to write.
所以除了周三之外几乎每一天我都有很强的写作压力。
Which when people ask, "Gergely, how do you write so much?" Because I did the maths, and I wrote four or five books' worth of content just last year.
当人们问：“盖尔盖利，你怎么写这么多？”因为我做了数学计算，去年我写了四五本书的内容。
It's because I have these deadlines, and as you said, I also know that thousands of people are paying me, they have expectations of me.
这是因为我有这些最后期限，正如你所说，我也知道成千上万的人在付钱给我，他们对我有期望。
Gergely Orosz: And so this is how it's done.
Gergely Orosz：这就是它的完成方式。
If you want to write a book, the easiest way is go to a publisher and sign a contract, not because of the money.
如果你想写一本书，最简单的方法就是去找出版商并签订合同，而不是因为钱。
In software engineering, you're not going to get much $5,000 or something like that.
在软件工程领域，你不会得到太多 5,000 美元或类似的东西。
That's what I was offered initially.
这就是最初向我提供的。
But it's the pressure.
但这就是压力。
You absolutely should go to a publisher or have some external...
您绝对应该去找出版商或寻求一些外部...
Someone to hold you accountable, and then you'll get it done.
有人让你负起责任，然后你就会完成它。
And I'll let you in on another secret, or not so secret.
我会让你知道另一个秘密，或者不那么秘密。
Gergely Orosz: In my mind, when I started newsletter a year ago in this crossroads, I want to write this book, which I think will be a great book, the Software Engineer's Guidebook, I feel it'll be my summary of my last ten years of what I have to share as advice, but I was worried that it's just a big project that's just going to take months, and I'll lose motivation midway.
Gergely Orosz：在我看来，当我一年前在这个十字路口开始写时事通讯时，我想写这本书，我认为这将是一本很棒的书，《软件工程师指南》，我觉得这将是我对过去十年我必须分享的建议的总结，但我担心这只是一个需要几个月时间的大项目，我会中途失去动力。
Gergely Orosz: And partially, I went down the newsletter route because I liked how every week I would have to write something, and I had this sneaky idea of, what if I wrote this book where I write some posts that will be part of the book, and then the book will just come together partially.
Gergely Orosz：部分地，我走时事通讯路线，因为我喜欢每周都要写一些东西，我有一个偷偷摸摸的想法，如果我写这本书，写一些帖子，这些帖子将成为这本书的一部分，然后这本书就会部分地组合在一起，会怎么样。
And I've kind of been doing that.
我一直在这样做。
I haven't been telling people, but some of the posts are going to be...
我没有告诉别人，但有些帖子将会......
Not exactly, but the idea is that I have this chapter, and I have this list, have I written about this topic in the newsletter?
不完全是这样，但我的想法是，我有这一章，我有这个列表，我在时事通讯中写过这个主题吗？
And you know where I got this idea from?
你知道我这个想法是从哪里来的吗？
There's the book The Three Musketeers, from Alexander Dumas .
这是亚历山大·杜马斯的《三个火枪手》一书。
And do you know how it was written?
而且你知道它是怎么写的吗？
Gergely Orosz: So he wrote the book for a magazine.
Gergely Orosz：所以他为一本杂志写了这本书。
He was apparently just low on money, and he started to write for this magazine who told them, "All right, we need you to write something that our readers will want, so that they will buy the magazine." I think he was getting a cut of some sales or something.
他显然只是缺钱，他开始为这本杂志撰稿，他告诉他们，“好吧，我们需要你写一些我们的读者想要的东西，这样他们就会购买这本杂志。”我认为他得到了一些销售额的分成或者其他什么。
So he needs to write in a way that was interesting, and then cut it off in a way that people would come back and buy the next one.
所以他需要以一种有趣的方式写作，然后以人们会回来购买下一篇的方式进行剪裁。
And he wrote a whole book, and that book, when I read it, it's really long, and I was like, hold on, if he could do this, then this is a good strategy.
他写了一整本书，当我读到那本书时，它真的很长，我想，等等，如果他能做到这一点，那么这是一个很好的策略。
He was writing it because he just needed the money.
他写这封信是因为他只需要钱。
That's all.
就这样。
And then he wrote a really good book on the way.
然后他在途中写了一本非常好的书。
Gergely Orosz: So one big learning for me from newsletters then...
Gergely Orosz：那么，我从时事通讯中学到了一大知识……
I would argue that you can use this not just for newsletters, but any business that you do.
我认为您不仅可以将其用于时事通讯，还可以用于您从事的任何业务。
If you're going to go out and start a new business, you'll probably have some ideas.
如果您打算出去开创一项新业务，您可能会有一些想法。
And it's not just going to be a newsletter, it's going to be a bunch of other things.
这不仅仅是一份时事通讯，还包括很多其他内容。
If you put in ways that you have to do certain things, put in constraints for the things that you need to do, and then you're going to do that.
如果你设定了必须做某些事情的方式，为你需要做的事情设定了限制，然后你就会去做。
Gergely Orosz: Without that, when you're on your own, when you're entrepreneur, I was a great...
Gergely Orosz：如果没有这个，当你独自一人时，当你是企业家时，我是一个伟大的......
I think I was a really diligent employee.
我认为我是一个非常勤奋的员工。
I always tried to get my work done, show up on time, I tried to meet all expectations.
我总是努力完成工作，准时上班，努力满足所有期望。
But what I noticed is, when I started to work for myself, it just went out the window.
但我注意到，当我开始为自己工作时，它就消失了。
Almost 15 years of being this star employee who really wants to do well, I found myself upset at myself for not...
近 15 年来，我一直是一名真正想做好工作的明星员工，我发现自己对自己感到不安，因为我没有……
Just wasting my day.
只是浪费我的一天。
But I fixed it by telling people, "You're going to get this every week," and now I have to do it.
但我通过告诉人们“你每周都会得到这个”来解决这个问题，现在我必须这样做。
I just have no choice.
我只是别无选择。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.
Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。
If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.
如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。
SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data, and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.
SOC 2 可以证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据，并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任。
Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.
此外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。
SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals, or it can put your business on hold.
SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务陷入困境。
If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.
如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能甚至无法获得席位。
Beginning a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.
开始 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。
It's time consuming, tedious, and expensive.
这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。
Lenny: Enter Vanta.
莱尼：万塔上。
Over 3,000 fast growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.
超过 3,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。
Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.
Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。
For a limited time, Lenny's Podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.
在有限的时间内，Lenny's Podcast 听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。
Just go to vanta.com/lenny, that's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny, to learn more and to claim your discount.
只需访问vanta.com/lenny（即V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny）即可了解更多信息并申请折扣。
Get started today.
今天就开始吧。
Lenny: I definitely wanted to dig into that a little bit deeper, this issue that folks in our line of work run into, which is unstructured time and having to create your own structure.
莱尼：我确实想更深入地研究这个问题，我们工作中的人们会遇到这个问题，这是非结构化的时间，必须创建自己的结构。
I had the same exact problem when I started this thing, before I even started the newsletter.
当我开始做这件事时，甚至在我开始时事通讯之前，我也遇到了同样的问题。
How do I use my time well?
我如何充分利用我的时间？
How do I create some kind of deadline for myself?
我如何为自己设定某种截止日期？
So I'm curious what other tricks you found to help you stay productive and focus, because there's Twitter, there's Instagram, TikTok, there's all these things that pull my attention.
所以我很好奇你还发现了哪些其他技巧可以帮助你保持高效和专注，因为有 Twitter、有 Instagram、TikTok，所有这些东西都吸引了我的注意力。
And I've learned a couple things I'll share that have been helpful, but I'm curious, what have you found to help you focus and get things out the door?
我学到了一些我将分享的有用的东西，但我很好奇，你发现了什么可以帮助你集中注意力并把事情解决掉？
Two posts a week, which is a lot of work.
一周发两篇文章，工作量很大。
Gergely Orosz: So a problem that I have, and this might be unique to newsletters, I'm not sure.
Gergely Orosz：所以我遇到了一个问题，这可能是时事通讯所特有的，我不确定。
I use Twitter for a lot of research.
我使用 Twitter 进行大量研究。
And unfortunately what that means is when I start to write something, it can really pull my attention, because I have Twitter open and then I get a message from someone.
不幸的是，这意味着当我开始写东西时，它确实会吸引我的注意力，因为我打开了 Twitter，然后我收到了某人的消息。
It's a little bit like Slack, but I'd argue it can be worse, because also Twitter for me is also something that is very useful in generating people raising awareness.
它有点像 Slack，但我认为它可能更糟，因为 Twitter 对我来说对于提高人们的认识也非常有用。
So whenever I tweet, it helps my business.
因此，每当我发推文时，它都会对我的业务有所帮助。
So that's a good thing.
所以这是一件好事。
But it also justifies for me spending more time on, for example, Twitter than I would want to.
但这也证明我花更多的时间在 Twitter 等网站上比我想要的要多。
So I find that I come up with a method, and it works for a few months, and then I need to change it because my brain just learns to work around it.
所以我发现我想出了一个方法，它可以运行几个月，然后我需要改变它，因为我的大脑只是学会了解决它。
So I'll tell you a few things that I did, and I'll tell you where I'm at right now, but I use for example apps.
所以我会告诉你我所做的一些事情，我会告诉你我现在在哪里，但我使用例如应用程序。
I use this app Centered, but I know you're also there.
我使用 Centered 这个应用程序，但我知道你也在那里。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I love that app.
我喜欢那个应用程序。
Also an investor disclaimer, but I love it.
也是投资者免责声明，但我喜欢它。
Gergely Orosz: Yeah.
盖尔盖伊·奥罗斯：是的。
And I found that helpful, the idea of focused time and turned on, but it might just be me, but after a while I get used to these things, and I find it not as efficient.
我发现集中时间和开启的想法很有帮助，但这可能只是我，但过了一段时间我习惯了这些事情，我发现它没有那么有效。
I found the Pomodoro method for a few months useful, when you have the 25 minute intervals.
我发现，当你有 25 分钟的时间间隔时，几个月的番茄工作法很有用。
And the one thing that has never failed me, but I just find it hard to do, is I find it hard to start.
有一件事从未令我失望，但我发现很难做到，那就是我发现很难开始。
I have this benefit that I have all this time...
我一直有这个好处......
Sorry, there's two things that always work.
抱歉，有两件事总是有效的。
One is, it's almost time for me to go home, and then I'm super focused.
一是，我快要回家了，然后我就非常专注。
So when I have this external thing, and I know that there's no way I need to focus on basically the deadline.
所以当我有这个外部事情时，我知道我基本上不需要关注最后期限。
So if you have deadlines, that works.
所以如果你有最后期限，那是可行的。
Gergely Orosz: The other thing is, if I start to spend three or four minutes doing something focused, and I get the flow of it.
Gergely Orosz：另一件事是，如果我开始花三四分钟专注地做某件事，我就会明白它的流程。
So a trick I sometimes do when I'm just, I just don't feel doing anything, is I set a timer of 20 minutes, and then I say, "All right, no distractions." I have a script where I just kill...
所以，当我感觉什么都不做时，我有时会采取一个技巧，就是设定一个 20 分钟的计时器，然后我说：“好吧，不要分心。”我有一个脚本，我只是杀死......
I use a host file, I just kill all LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, whatever sites.
我使用主机文件，我只是删除所有 LinkedIn、Twitter、Facebook 等网站。
So I just cannot reach it.
所以我就是达不到它。
It's just a very simple Python script that I wrote for myself.
这只是我为自己编写的一个非常简单的 Python 脚本。
And then in the first few minutes I'm grumbling, I'm like, "I wish I could do this, I wish I could just look at Twitter to research," but about five minutes in, there's a switch, and I'm now actually heads down and doing it.
然后在最初的几分钟里，我会抱怨，我想，“我希望我能做到这一点，我希望我能看看 Twitter 进行研究”，但大约五分钟后，出现了一个转变，我现在实际上正在埋头做这件事。
And this has been the thing that has consistently worked.
这一直是有效的方法。
Gergely Orosz: The interesting thing is that I feel guilty a lot of times that I'm not working as hard as I could.
Gergely Orosz：有趣的是，我很多时候因为没有尽我所能地努力工作而感到内疚。
And I do wonder if it's guilt, or if it's my mind or body telling me that it just wants a break or it wants to do something else.
我确实想知道这是否是一种内疚，或者是否是我的思想或身体告诉我它只是想要休息一下或者它想做别的事情。
I still haven't figured it out, but I'm on the way there.
我还没弄清楚，但我已经在路上了。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
That's a really cool trick, the host file trick.
这是一个非常酷的技巧，主机文件技巧。
So that's something that you have to be technical to do.
所以这是你必须具备技术能力才能做到的事情。
I imagine there's some chrome extensions that could do that to some extent for folks.
我想有一些 chrome 扩展可以在某种程度上为人们做到这一点。
But the whole idea there is, force your brain not to have any way to look at something that'll be distracting, by blocking your computer from even being able to go to the site.
但整个想法是，通过阻止你的计算机甚至无法访问该网站，迫使你的大脑不去任何会分散注意力的东西。
That's awesome.
太棒了。
Gergely Orosz: Yeah.
盖尔盖伊·奥罗斯：是的。
So there is definitely going to be extensions that you can use, and on this podcast we'll have a variety of people.
因此，肯定会有您可以使用的扩展，并且在这个播客中我们将有各种各样的人。
If you're a software engineer, it's pretty simple, and even if you're not, you can look it up when you override your host file, you can actually block what you do.
如果您是软件工程师，这非常简单，即使您不是，您也可以在覆盖主机文件时查找它，实际上可以阻止您所做的事情。
And I did this because I wrote a script where I need to run the script, and I need to run the script again to unblock it.
我这样做是因为我编写了一个脚本，我需要运行该脚本，并且我需要再次运行该脚本以解锁它。
And it's kind of cool, because I put it together for myself.
这很酷，因为我自己把它组合在一起。
So I usually find that the tools that other people use, maybe this is just me or maybe this is software engineers, I don't like them because I feel they're either too opinionated or they're not opinionated enough.
所以我通常会发现其他人使用的工具，也许这只是我，也许这是软件工程师，我不喜欢他们，因为我觉得他们要么太固执己见，要么不够固执己见。
So I don't know if this is just the fact that I used to like to build my own tools and my own scripts, because I can, so I found that my scripts worked the best for me.
所以我不知道这是否只是我以前喜欢构建自己的工具和自己的脚本的事实，因为我可以，所以我发现我的脚本最适合我。
Gergely Orosz: But as you said, there's a bunch of really good tools.
Gergely Orosz：但正如您所说，有很多非常好的工具。
So my advice to people would be, look up all let's try them out.
所以我对人们的建议是，查找所有内容，让我们尝试一下。
You won't know until you try them.
在你尝试之前你不会知道。
And again, I had stuff that worked really well for a certain amount of time.
再说一次，我有一些东西在一段时间内非常有效。
I don't know why, maybe I just get bored easily or something, that I just need to rotate.
我不知道为什么，也许我只是很容易感到无聊或者什么，我只需要旋转。
But for example, when I went back to Centered...
但例如，当我回到 Centered 时......
I have no affiliation by the way, so I'm just telling this.
顺便说一句，我没有任何隶属关系，所以我只是告诉这个。
But I really liked how they keep evolving as well to do cooler things.
但我真的很喜欢他们不断发展并做更酷的事情的方式。
They have a community element where you're competing with people on uninterrupted time and closing stuff.
他们有一个社区元素，你可以在不间断的时间和结束的事情上与人们竞争。
So that to me is a...
所以这对我来说是一个...
I'll do one last Centered again.
我会再做最后一次居中。
I have no affiliation.
我没有任何隶属关系。
What I really liked about Centered is, it allows you to turn on your video camera, and I felt really forced to do work, because I knew that people on the other side of the world might be watching me, even if it was not true.
我真正喜欢 Centered 的是，它允许你打开摄像机，我感觉自己真的被迫工作，因为我知道世界另一端的人们可能正在看着我，即使这不是真的。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I love that feature.
我喜欢这个功能。
It's centered.app, by the way, if folks want to check it out.
顺便说一句，如果人们想查看的话，它是 centered.app。
So to summarize some of your tips, which I love, Centered, deadlines, totally work for me too.
总结一下你的一些技巧，我很喜欢，居中，截止日期，也完全适合我。
Blocking sites so that you can't get distracted by Twitter and LinkedIn and TikTok and all the things.
屏蔽网站，这样你就不会因为 Twitter、LinkedIn 和 TikTok 等其他东西而分心。
And I guess that's the three that work best for you.
我想这三个是最适合你的。
Gergely Orosz: Yeah.
盖尔盖伊·奥罗斯：是的。
And the simple thing, start a 20 minute timer, and you say, "For 20 minutes, I need to focus on this thing," on your iPhone or somewhere else.
很简单，启动 20 分钟计时器，然后你在 iPhone 或其他地方说：“我需要在 20 分钟内专注于这件事”。
It's just 20 minutes, but during that time you cannot do anything else.
虽然只有20分钟，但在这段时间里你不能做任何其他事情。
And just try it.
尝试一下。
It works for me, like a charm, once I decide to actually do it.
一旦我决定真正去做，它就会像魔咒一样对我起作用。
Lenny: It's cool Centered does that for you, and it has music and all the things.
Lenny：Centered 为你做到这一点很酷，而且它有音乐和所有东西。
So I that a lot.
所以我就说了很多。
Awesome.
惊人的。
What do you love most about this life that you lead now, versus what you used to do?
与过去相比，你现在最喜欢的生活是什么？
And then I'm going to ask you the opposite, but let's start there.
然后我会问你相反的问题，但让我们从这里开始。
Gergely Orosz: I really like that it forces me to have my calendar empty, because for so many years my calendar was this giant mess of meetings on top of meetings, and I would barely have any time to actually have focus time.
Gergely Orosz：我真的很喜欢它迫使我把日历清空，因为多年来我的日历都是会议之上的一大堆混乱的会议，我几乎没有任何时间真正有专注的时间。
Now I actually have the opposite.
现在我的情况却恰恰相反。
I usually have a lot of focus time, and I have very, very few meetings or things.
我通常有很多专注的时间，而我的会议或事情却非常非常少。
And even now I get a little bit cagey I have this one meeting in the whole day.
即使现在我还是有点谨慎，我一整天只开一次会议。
So I like how it's manage your time so that's the best part.
所以我喜欢它如何管理你的时间，这是最好的部分。
Gergely Orosz: And I also like how much in charge I am.
Gergely Orosz：我也喜欢我的掌控力。
Initially it freaked me out, in the sense of how much creative freedom I have.
最初它让我感到害怕，因为我拥有如此多的创作自由。
I can write about whatever.
我可以写任何东西。
I can change a format, I can do this, I can do that.
我可以改变格式，我可以做这个，我可以做那个。
It can be a little bit overwhelming, because I also know that people are going to be reading this, and what are they going to think about it?
这可能有点让人不知所措，因为我也知道人们会读到这篇文章，他们会怎么想？
But I do like that it's very entrepreneurial, so I get to experiment a lot as well, which reminds me a little bit of my old job, because at Uber we also experimented a lot, and obviously more in a corporate setting.
但我确实喜欢它非常具有创业精神，所以我也进行了很多实验，这让我想起了我以前的工作，因为在 Uber，我们也进行了很多实验，而且显然更多是在企业环境中进行的。
But I guess that's just gotten extended.
但我想这只是延长了。
So these are the two favorite things, is the open calendar or very few meetings, and experimenting, trying out stuff and being able to decide what I want to try out.
所以这是我最喜欢的两件事，一是开放的日历或很少的会议，二是尝试、尝试一些东西并能够决定我想尝试什么。
Lenny: Plus one on both those.
莱尼：这两点都加一。
I have a rule of no meetings before 3:00 PM, and it generally works 99% of the time.
我制定了下午 3:00 之前不开会的规定，通常 99% 的时间都有效。
And the reason I do that is, to your point, if there's a meeting at 11:00, I just can't do anything really deep until that point, and then afterwards I have to get back on track.
我这样做的原因是，就你的观点而言，如果 11:00 有一个会议，在那之前我无法做任何深入的事情，然后我必须回到正轨。
And having that deep focus time is so important for this work, even though half the time I'm on Twitter and distracted, as long as I get enough time to focus, good things happen.
拥有深度专注的时间对于这项工作非常重要，尽管我有一半的时间在推特上并且心烦意乱，但只要我有足够的时间专注，好事就会发生。
Okay.
好的。
Opposite.
对面的。
What are some of the most surprising downsides and sucky parts of this path that you've taken?
在你所走的这条道路上，最令人惊讶的缺点和最糟糕的部分是什么？
Gergely Orosz: One is obviously it's lonely.
Gergely Orosz：一是显然很孤独。
I do miss...
我很想念...
I had a really good team at Uber, and it wasn't just a team, it was the people.
我在 Uber 拥有一支非常优秀的团队，这不仅仅是一个团队，而是员工。
I liked...
我喜欢...
Everyone has different views on remote work.
每个人对远程工作都有不同的看法。
I actually didn't enjoy remote work as much, because I just liked hanging out with people.
事实上，我不太喜欢远程工作，因为我只是喜欢和人们一起出去玩。
I guess I'm that more outgoing type, and I really like walking up to the coffee station and having a chat with people, or at lunch sitting next to someone and talking about it.
我想我是那种比较外向的类型，我真的很喜欢走到咖啡站和人们聊天，或者在午餐时坐在某人旁边谈论它。
And obviously in some sense it was annoying, because I wanted to get work done, but for the most part I miss it more than I have.
显然，从某种意义上说，这很烦人，因为我想完成工作，但在大多数情况下，我比现在更想念它。
And so I miss not having that.
所以我很怀念没有那个。
I compensate for that by working in a shared workspace, a shared office, which is a techy workspace.
我通过在共享工作空间、共享办公室工作来弥补这一点，这是一个技术性的工作空间。
So everyone needs to work in tech.
所以每个人都需要从事科技工作。
So I actually get to say hi to people and have a little small talk.
所以我实际上可以和人们打招呼并闲聊。
Gergely Orosz: The structure is weird, because I felt really guilty for the first few months, because I felt that at Uber I was more productive, because I had to be.
Gergely Orosz：结构很奇怪，因为在最初的几个月里我感到非常内疚，因为我觉得在 Uber 我的工作效率更高，因为我必须这样做。
I was doing so many things.
我做了很多事情。
In a day, I would start my day let's say at 9:00 or at 8:30, and I'd finish it up at, I don't know, 6:00 or 5:30, it depends.
在一天中，我会在 9:00 或 8:30 开始我的一天，我会在 6:00 或 5:30 结束，这取决于情况。
I would probably have, on an average day, I would have a good eight meetings, I would finish two or three documents, I would send over this, send over that.
平均每天，我可能会召开八次会议，完成两到三份文件，我会发送这个，发送那个。
I actually have...
我其实有...
Looking at my output, now I write a lot, but I wrote a lot.
看看我的输出，现在我写了很多，但我写了很多。
I think I wrote almost as much in terms of emails, chat messages, et cetera.
我想我在电子邮件、聊天消息等方面写的内容几乎同样多。
So the downside is, I felt very guilty and a little bit frustrated for myself, for feeling that I'm slacking off.
所以缺点是，我对自己感到非常内疚和有点沮丧，因为感觉自己偷懒了。
That's one.
这是一个。
Gergely Orosz: And the other thing, it is surprisingly stressful.
Gergely Orosz：另一件事是压力惊人。
So when you start off, it's kind of lonely.
所以当你开始的时候，你会感到有点孤独。
Not many people do this, what we do.
没有多少人这样做，我们就是这么做的。
That's also one of the reasons that we connected, because it's a very small community.
这也是我们建立联系的原因之一，因为这是一个非常小的社区。
And even within the community, I feel, in the newsletter community, it's different.
我觉得，即使在社区内部，在时事通讯社区中，情况也是不同的。
You're all running your own business, and there is some level of competition.
你们都在经营自己的生意，并且存在一定程度的竞争。
So you might not...
所以你可能不会...
Because it's a little bit of attention economy as well.
因为这也有点注意力经济。
People are not going to subscribe or pay for ten newsletters on the same topic, so that makes it a little bit more...
人们不会订阅或支付同一主题的十份时事通讯，因此这使得它变得更加......
It's not the same as when you work in tech, and you just share exactly everything that you do, because you can only win.
这与你在科技行业工作时不同，你只需分享你所做的一切，因为你只能获胜。
Gergely Orosz: So there's that part, but there's a lot of external validation, so whenever looking at your subscriber numbers, which brings a bunch of stress that I didn't expect.
Gergely Orosz：所以有这一部分，但是有很多外部验证，所以每当查看您的订阅者数量时，这都会带来很多我没有预料到的压力。
And I'm a successful newsletter I think my success is quite rare.
我是一个成功的时事通讯，我认为我的成功是相当罕见的。
There will be one or two or a handful of people who have similar success, but I'm an outlier.
会有一两个或少数人取得类似的成功，但我是一个局外人。
So that's another thing that I think is just good putting out there.
所以这是我认为放在那里的另一件事。
And the downside is, you don't really know how well you're doing.
缺点是，你并不真正知道自己做得有多好。
External goals are kind of meaningless.
外部目标有点毫无意义。
Internal goals, either you smash them or you don't reach them.
内部目标，要么你粉碎它们，要么你达不到它们。
So there's this constant sense of, where am I?
所以我一直有这样的感觉：我在哪里？
How am I, and how do I judge myself?
我怎么样，我如何判断自己？
Did I make a mistake for leaving my job?
我离职是不是一个错误？
I actually asked myself for several months actually, after I started.
事实上，在我开始之后的几个月里，我一直在问自己。
Or did I make a good one?
还是我做了一件好事？
And I think for a lot of these questions and doubts, having past professional experience working at a company is really useful to set yourself grounded.
我认为对于很多这样的问题和疑虑，过去在公司工作的专业经验对于让自己脚踏实地确实很有用。
Lenny: I actually want to ask you about that, but I'll add a couple things that I also find are major downsides of this life, because it's not all rainbows and butterflies.
莱尼：我其实想问你这个问题，但我会补充一些我也发现的生活的主要缺点，因为生活并不全是彩虹和蝴蝶。
One is, with a paid newsletter especially, but even with a sponsored newsletter, you basically have to get something awesome out every week, in theory for the rest of your life.
一是，尤其是付费时事通讯，但即使是赞助的时事通讯，理论上你的余生基本上每周都必须得到一些很棒的东西。
People are buying an annual plan every day, so that means at least a year you have to write something awesome, if you want to stop.
人们每天都在购买年度计划，所以这意味着如果你想停下来，你至少需要一年时间写一些很棒的东西。
But it's hard to stop, because as you pointed out, the income is very meaningful, and that's a hard thing to give up.
但很难停下来，因为正如你所指出的，收入是非常有意义的，这是很难放弃的事情。
And so I'm not sure exactly the exit path that exists for us, where we might have to keep writing something awesome for the rest of our life, but I imagine something will emerge and we'll think of something else that we could do.
所以我不确定我们到底有什么退出路径，我们可能不得不在余生中继续写一些很棒的东西，但我想有些东西会出现，我们会想到我们可以做的其他事情。
Gergely Orosz: Yeah.
盖尔盖伊·奥罗斯：是的。
And it's a really good example, because for a lot of companies, and I assume a lot of listeners are working in tech, typical thing is you work hard, you build equity at a company or you build the value of the company, and then you can sell that company, and then you can have an exit and you can do whatever.
这是一个非常好的例子，因为对于很多公司来说，我假设很多听众都在科技行业工作，典型的事情是你努力工作，你在公司建立股权或者你建立公司的价值，然后你可以卖掉那家公司，然后你可以退出，你可以做任何事情。
For what we're doing, it's really tied to us.
对于我们正在做的事情来说，它确实与我们息息相关。
So however much or little my newsletter will make, it'll have a value let's say four or five times the annual revenue as a business, but you cannot really sell it like that and you cannot really walk away.
因此，无论我的时事通讯能赚多少钱，它的价值都会是企业年收入的四到五倍，但你不能真正像这样出售它，也不能真正走开。
Gergely Orosz: So that makes it unique, it makes it harder to compete with, which is cool, but it does not create that much of an exit path unless you start to build a company around it, build an organization that can run without you, for example.
Gergely Orosz：这使它变得独一无二，使它更难与之竞争，这很酷，但它并没有创造出那么多的退出路径，除非你开始围绕它建立一家公司，例如建立一个可以在没有你的情况下运行的组织。
This is what a lot of book publishing companies...
这是很多图书出版公司...
So basically you build a publishing company where you start to hire people, who start to write some of the articles initially, and then later more of them, but it's not a one-person newsletter any more.
所以基本上你建立了一家出版公司，你开始雇用人员，他们最初开始写一些文章，然后再写更多的文章，但这不再是一个人的时事通讯。
Or you keep doing this, until you either stop and then the revenue stops, or you might be able to sell it, but at really under value.
或者你继续这样做，直到你停止，然后收入停止，或者你可能能够出售它，但价格确实低于价值。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I really don't want to manage people.
我真的不想管理人。
I don't want to have employees.
我不想有员工。
And so building a media company with writers, that doesn't sound too fun, but maybe that's where this goes.
因此，与作家一起建立一家媒体公司，这听起来不太有趣，但也许这就是事情的发展方向。
That is one route, for sure.
当然，这是一条路线。
The other downside I'll just add is the fact that you have to write something awesome every week, it's hard to take meaningful time off, because if you stop producing great stuff, people leave.
我要补充的另一个缺点是，你必须每周写一些很棒的东西，很难抽出有意义的时间休息，因为如果你停止创作伟大的东西，人们就会离开。
And I invented this PTO policy for myself where I take four weeks a year off, where I don't do a newsletter, but that means I can't take more than a week off usually weeks in a row, I don't know, people probably won't care, but it feels like things start to not go great if I just don't keep producing great stuff.
我为自己发明了这个 PTO 政策，我每年休息四个星期，我不写时事通讯，但这意味着我不能休息超过一周，通常是连续几周，我不知道，人们可能不会在意，但如果我不继续创造伟大的东西，感觉事情就开始变得不顺利。
So that's another downside, just topic.
这是另一个缺点，只是一个话题。
Gergely Orosz: Yeah.
盖尔盖伊·奥罗斯：是的。
But a lot very early.
但很多很早。
So I think the whole concept of paying users is new, so I think we're going to do a lot of experimentation.
所以我认为付费用户的整个概念是新的，所以我认为我们将做很多实验。
And also a lot of it, I think you need to figure out what your needs are.
还有很多，我认为你需要弄清楚你的需求是什么。
So in the first year, I did not take a holiday in terms of...
所以在第一年，我没有休假......
Or even when I I was writing, and it caused a bit of friction with my family.
甚至在我写作的时候，也和家人发生了一些摩擦。
And now I'm solving it in a different way, so I am planning to take more time off now, and I'm doing it by working ahead with some of the less time sensitive things.
现在我正在以不同的方式解决这个问题，所以我计划现在休息更多的时间，并且我正在通过提前处理一些对时间不太敏感的事情来做到这一点。
But it is tough.
但这很难。
Gergely Orosz: So a downside we haven't mentioned, but I'm just going to call it out, is holiday.
Gergely Orosz：我们没有提到一个缺点，但我只想指出，那就是假期。
The great thing at...
最伟大的事情是在...
I never felt...
我从来没有感觉到...
Well, I felt a little guilty sometimes taking holiday, but when I want a holiday, I took it off.
好吧，有时我会感到有点内疚，但当我想要度假时，我就把它取消了。
When I had my son born, at Uber, they gave me a four month paid holiday.
当我在优步生下我的儿子时，他们给了我四个月的带薪假期。
I took the whole four months, I just logged off.
我花了整整四个月，我刚刚注销。
It was great.
太棒了。
It wasn't my company.
那不是我的公司。
I was still getting stock.
我还在买货。
The stock price was independent of mostly what I was doing, just being honest.
老实说，股价大部分与我所做的事情无关。
And that was really, really good.
那真的非常非常好。
So this might be true, by the way, if you start any business, especially while it's just yourself, it's hard to turn off.
顺便说一句，这可能是真的，如果你开始做任何生意，尤其是当你自己做生意时，就很难停止。
And I think most people don't mind, I don't mind, but it gets to you.
我认为大多数人不介意，我也不介意，但它会影响到你。
We should be conscious about burnout as a whole.
我们应该从整体上意识到倦怠。
So you need to solve for that, and I'm starting to solve for that as well.
所以你需要解决这个问题，我也开始解决这个问题。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
Okay.
好的。
Enough about the downsides.
关于缺点就够了。
Overall, it's pretty amazing making hundreds of thousands of dollars writing an email once a week/twice a week.
总的来说，每周写一次/每周两次电子邮件可以赚数十万美元，这是相当惊人的。
So just to wrap up on that, I'm curious, where do you think this goes long term for you?
总结一下，我很好奇，你认为这对你来说长期来说会怎样？
And then I want to talk about just what it takes to be successful, but before there, do you think this goes long term?
然后我想谈谈如何才能取得成功，但在此之前，您认为这会长期持续吗？
Gergely Orosz: I stopped making long term plans, because three years ago you would've asked me what I wanted to do, and I was like, "I want to be, I don't know, a manager of managers." And then I became one.
Gergely Orosz：我不再制定长期计划，因为三年前你会问我想做什么，而我当时的反应是，“我想成为，我不知道，一名经理中的经理。”然后我就成为其中之一。
And then what is my dream?
那么我的梦想是什么？
I would've been like, "It's a stretch, but maybe I want to be a site lead." And I didn't become one per se, but I never thought of writing a newsletter, or now writing a successful newsletter.
我可能会说，“这有点牵强，但也许我想成为一名网站负责人。”我本身并没有成为这样的人，但我从来没有想过写一份时事通讯，或者现在写一份成功的时事通讯。
So I'm going with the flow.
所以我就随波逐流。
I'm seeing this less, by the way, as a newsletter or creator, or creator economy as people like to see it.
顺便说一句，我很少将其视为人们喜欢看到的时事通讯或创作者或创作者经济。
I see this as a business, and I'm trying to put on that business hat.
我将其视为一门生意，并且我正在努力戴上那顶商业帽子。
I'm building a one-person business.
我正在建立一个人的企业。
I want to make it sustainable, I want to make it successful, and I find that this thinking really helps me detach as well.
我想让它可持续发展，我想让它成功，我发现这种想法也确实帮助我脱离。
I can actually enjoy my weekends as opposed to thinking, "I need to write this, or I need to write that." So I also want to make it work for me.
我实际上可以享受周末，而不是想着“我需要写这个，或者我需要写那个”。所以我也想让它为我工作。
Gergely Orosz: And I'm not married to the idea of, it always needs to be a newsletter, et cetera.
Gergely Orosz：我并不认同这样的想法，它总是需要成为一份时事通讯，等等。
Right now it is, but where I see us going is, I'll keep building the business, I'll keep playing to my strength, which is I love talking with people, I love writing I love software engineering.
现在是这样，但我认为我们的发展方向是，我将继续发展业务，我将继续发挥自己的优势，即我喜欢与人交谈，我喜欢写作，我喜欢软件工程。
So this is a great format, but over time it might shift.
所以这是一个很好的格式，但随着时间的推移它可能会发生变化。
So I'm keeping my options open.
所以我保留我的选择余地。
And what I've learned from this journey is, you need to create time for that spark to come.
我从这次旅程中学到的是，你需要为火花的到来创造时间。
So one of my goals for next few years is to not spend 50 hours a week on a newsletter, which I'm doing right now, but spend 20, and then maybe take a few weeks off and have that spark come.
因此，我未来几年的目标之一是不要每周花 50 个小时在新闻通讯上（我现在正在这样做），而是花 20 个小时，然后可能休息几周，让火花出现。
Because the reality is, this newsletter only came because I gave myself six months of unpaid...
因为现实是，这份时事通讯只是因为我给自己六个月的无薪……
I'm not going for work, I didn't ask for any LinkedIn emails.
我不会去上班，我也没有要求任何 LinkedIn 电子邮件。
And the idea came and the inspiration came and the motivation came.
想法来了，灵感来了，动力也来了。
Lenny: There's a lot of similarities with my approach.
Lenny：我的方法有很多相似之处。
I don't think too far long term.
我不认为太长远。
I have no idea what's going to happen.
我不知道会发生什么。
I just take it to...
我只是把它带到...
I see where pull is coming from, and if it feels like an interesting opportunity and something that I'd be excited to work on, I explore it, like the podcast for example.
我知道拉力来自哪里，如果感觉这是一个有趣的机会并且是我很乐意从事的事情，我就会探索它，例如播客。
And on that point, I will say, once you find that you can spend maybe 20 hours on a newsletter, I guarantee you'll find more work to fill that gap, because that's what I've been doing.
在这一点上，我会说，一旦你发现你可以花 20 个小时在新闻通讯上，我保证你会找到更多的工作来填补这个空白，因为这就是我一直在做的事情。
Gergely Orosz: Yeah.
盖尔盖伊·奥罗斯：是的。
And one last thing to touch on, you said something really important pull, and I want to double down on that.
最后要谈的是，你说了一些非常重要的事情，我想加倍强调这一点。
One of the biggest, best things about doing what we do when you're in charge of your time is, you can double down on pulls.
当你掌控自己的时间时，做我们所做的最大、最好的事情之一就是，你可以加倍努力。
So Uber, like I said, my plan was, I'll write this book for six months.
所以优步，就像我说的，我的计划是，我将用六个月的时间写这本书。
Two months in, I just put a draft a really long blog post about mobile engineering, and I got a ton of messages, a lot.
两个月后，我刚刚写了一篇关于移动工程的很长的博客文章的草稿，我收到了大量的消息。
I usually used to get like three or four messages on Twitter per day.
我过去通常每天在 Twitter 上收到三到四条消息。
I got 20 in an hour, people saying, "Can I read the draft?" And I was like, that's interesting.
我一小时内得到了 20 个，人们说，“我可以看一下草稿吗？”我想，这很有趣。
I just felt this pull, of this huge interest of people caring about this.
我只是感受到了关心这个问题的人们的巨大兴趣的吸引力。
It was this really long blog post about mobile engineering at scale, and someone suggested on a private message, "You could probably turn this into a ebook." And I was like, that's a good idea, because it's a really long blog post.
这是一篇关于大规模移动工程的非常长的博客文章，有人在私信中建议：“你可以把它变成一本电子书。”我当时想，这是个好主意，因为这是一篇很长的博客文章。
So I said, "It's going to be an ebook, and it'll be pay what you want." And then people started to buy it.
所以我说，“这将是一本电子书，而且你想付费就付费。”然后人们开始购买它。
And I was like, that's interesting.
我想，这很有趣。
Gergely Orosz: So I didn't have much else to do, so I was able to double down.
Gergely Orosz：所以我没有太多其他事可做，所以我能够加倍努力。
I said, for the next two months, I'm going to write this book, because it seems there's an interest in it.
我说，在接下来的两个月里，我要写这本书，因为似乎有人对它感兴趣。
And I turned it into a book that was free for two months, but I got sponsorship.
我把它变成了一本书，免费两个月，但我得到了赞助。
The point was, I was able to double down on this pull.
关键是，我能够在这种拉力上加倍努力。
And same thing with the newsletter.
时事通讯也是如此。
So we're going to talk about how I got the first few thousand subscribers, but the point was, I was able to double down on something that I felt like, this is super interesting, I never expected that people would care about building a large mobile app, more than a few hundred people.
所以我们要讨论我是如何获得最初几千名订阅者的，但重点是，我能够在我觉得喜欢的事情上加倍努力，这非常有趣，我从来没有想到人们会关心构建一个大型移动应用程序，超过几百人。
Turns out they do.
事实证明他们确实如此。
Thousands do.
成千上万的人这样做。
Lenny: Let's actually jump to that.
莱尼：让我们开始吧。
Let's talk about just how to get started, for folks that are like, "This is cool.
让我们来谈谈如何开始，对于那些“这很酷”的人来说。
I want to do a newsletter." Let's talk about just how you got started briefly, and then what you think it takes to be successful in the life of a newsletter person.
我想做一份时事通讯。”让我们简单谈谈您是如何开始的，然后您认为如何才能在通讯员的生活中取得成功。
So how'd you actually get your first thousand subscribers?
那么您是如何获得第一批订阅者的呢？
Gergely Orosz: I'll tell the story that is kind of true, and people will think it's amazing, and also the real deal behind it.
Gergely Orosz：我会讲述一个真实的故事，人们会认为它很神奇，以及它背后的真实情况。
Gergely Orosz: I announced my newsletter, I told people, "I'm going to go full time on this." I had maybe 10,000 Twitter followers and, I don't know, maybe 1,000 on LinkedIn or something that.
Gergely Orosz：我宣布了我的时事通讯，我告诉人们，“我将全职从事这件事。”我在 Twitter 上可能有 10,000 个关注者，我不知道，在 LinkedIn 或其他网站上可能有 1,000 个关注者。
And people started signing up the next day.
人们第二天就开始报名。
I had 100 subscribers in the first day before I published anything.
在我发布任何内容之前的第一天，我就有了 100 个订阅者。
And within six weeks, when I published my I had 1,000 paid subscribers.
六周之内，当我发布我的文章时，我就有了 1,000 名付费订阅者。
And this sounds like a fairytale.
这听起来就像一个童话故事。
And if you do this, I guarantee you're not going to get the same results.
如果你这样做，我保证你不会得到同样的结果。
In fact, you'll probably see way smaller numbers.
事实上，您可能会看到更小的数字。
Gergely Orosz: What I didn't tell is that there was at least six years of accidental work behind this.
Gergely Orosz：我没有告诉的是，这背后至少有六年的偶然工作。
I started a blog six years before...
六年前我开始写博客...
Actually, I've always been blogging since I graduated.
事实上，自从我毕业以来，我一直在写博客。
I had this personal blog where I just published all sorts of random things about software engineering, but it was really...
我有一个个人博客，我刚刚在其中发布了有关软件工程的各种随机内容，但它确实......
Sometimes it was about an app that I published, sometimes it was a problem that I came across.
有时是关于我发布的应用程序，有时是我遇到的问题。
It was is all over the place.
到处都是。
And I got fed up with this, the blog wasn't going anywhere, and I was just writing for myself, by the way, but I didn't how it was just all over the place.
我厌倦了这个，博客哪儿也去不了，顺便说一句，我只是为自己写的，但我不知道它是如何到处都是的。
Gergely Orosz: And I said, "I'm going to start a blog, it'll be about software engineering and I'll call it The Pragmatic Engineer." I bought the domain, and I read this blog post from Jeff Atwood, who's the founder of Stack Overflow, and back in 2010, or I think in 2007 when I was still in college, he had the most popular blog on the internet for software engineers.
Gergely Orosz：我说，“我要开一个博客，内容是关于软件工程的，我称之为务实工程师。”我购买了该域名，并阅读了 Stack Overflow 创始人 Jeff Atwood 的这篇博客文章，早在 2010 年，或者我想在 2007 年，当我还在上大学时，他拥有互联网上最受软件工程师欢迎的博客。
It was called Coding Horror, and all the software engineers I knew read it and were drinking it.
它被称为“编码恐怖”，我认识的所有软件工程师都读过它并且正在喝它。
It was next level wisdom every single week, twice a week.
每周两次，这都是更高层次的智慧。
You read it as well?
你也读过吗？
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I used to be an engineer, and I was all up in that.
我曾经是一名工程师，我对此充满了热情。
And I think Coding Horror came from a...
我认为编码恐怖来自......
I forget the book, but there's a book with that graphic.
我忘记那本书了，但是有一本书上有那个图形。
Gergely Orosz: There's a book, and there's a graphic.
Gergely Orosz：有一本书，还有一张图片。
Yeah.
是的。
And he wrote a post which really stuck with me for years.
他写的一篇文章让我印象深刻很多年。
He said, how to be famous on the internet.
他说，如何在网络上出名。
He said, there's three simple steps.
他说，只需三个简单步骤。
One, write a blog post.
一、写一篇博客文章。
Two, do this three times a week.
第二，每周做三次。
Three, do it for two years.
三、坚持两年。
And I guarantee, if you do this, you're going to be famous.
我保证，如果你这样做，你就会出名。
And I always thought it's kind of ironic, but the more I read it, the more I thought he actually means something with it.
我一直觉得这有点讽刺，但我读得越多，我就越觉得他确实是有道理的。
And when I started this blog, The Pragmatic Engineer, I said, "I'm tired of my old blog being all over the place, and there's no focus, and no-one really cares about it.
当我开始写这个博客《务实的工程师》时，我说：“我厌倦了我的旧博客到处都是，没有重点，也没有人真正关心它。
I'm going to do what Jeff Atwood said.
我会按照杰夫·阿特伍德所说的去做。
I'm going to publish...
我要发布...
Okay, it's not going to be twice a week, but every two weeks I'm going to publish an article, and I'll do it for a year." So I started to do this.
好吧，不会是每周两次，但每两周我就会发表一篇文章，而且我会这样做一年。”所以我开始这样做。
I published six blog posts about software engineering, going into topics that I research and all that, and then I gave up.
我发表了六篇关于软件工程的博客文章，讨论了我研究的主题等等，然后我放弃了。
Gergely Orosz: And I'm saying this because I kind of gave up, and I left it for a few months, but then something interesting happened.
Gergely Orosz：我这么说是因为我有点放弃了，我离开了几个月，但后来发生了一些有趣的事情。
I had a huge traffic spike, and it crashed my shared hosting at the time.
我遇到了巨大的流量高峰，当时我的共享主机崩溃了。
And it came from a site called Hacker News that I heard about, and people were discussing my posts, and they were adding a lot of things.
它来自我听说过的一个名为“黑客新闻”的网站，人们正在讨论我的帖子，他们添加了很多东西。
And I was like, that's interesting.
我想，这很有趣。
People care about what I wrote six months ago.
人们关心我六个月前写的内容。
Lenny: What was that post, by the way?
莱尼：顺便问一下，那篇文章是什么？
Gergely Orosz: It was called, "A comment is an invitation for refactoring." I wrote my view that if there's a comment in a code, that means that comment should be deleted and you should just refactor the whole thing.
Gergely Orosz：这被称为“评论是重构的邀请”。我写了我的观点，如果代码中有注释，那就意味着应该删除该注释，并且您应该重构整个代码。
And it exploded on Hacker News.
它在黑客新闻上爆炸了。
Some people called me an idiot, some people called me absolute wisdom, and it was these two crowds battling it out.
有人叫我白痴，有人叫我绝对智慧，就是这两群人在较量。
And I was like, wow, I actually made software engineers in Silicon Valley argue about my stuff.
我当时想，哇，我真的让硅谷的软件工程师争论我的东西。
I saw some of the people, some really high people were really going for .
我看到了一些人，一些非常高尚的人真的很喜欢。
So that's when I thought my writings, some people might read it, it's not guaranteed.
所以那时候我就想我的作品可能会有人读，但不能保证。
Gergely Orosz: And I started to write on that blog once every few months, depending on my mood, but I never stopped doing it.
Gergely Orosz：我开始每隔几个月在该博客上写一次，具体取决于我的心情，但我从未停止这样做。
And I partially did it always hoped that it would get onto this site called Hacker News.
我部分地做到了这一点，一直希望它能出现在这个名为“黑客新闻”的网站上。
But by the way, for a while, I didn't even know you could submit it, so I never submitted my own things.
不过顺便说一句，有一段时间，我什至不知道你可以提交，所以我从来没有提交过我自己的东西。
But the other thing was, I just kind of liked it, and I had this habit, and over years...
但另一件事是，我只是有点喜欢它，而且我有这个习惯，多年来......
I had this blog from 2015.
我从 2015 年就有这个博客。
For six years I was writing that blog, and in the last year...
六年来我一直在写那个博客，去年......
When I worked at Uber, on the side I wrote about my work, in terms of the things that I could write about, not about the details that we did, but some of the learnings for example, distributed systems.
当我在 Uber 工作时，我一边写我的工作，一边写我能写的东西，不是我们所做的细节，而是一些学习的内容，例如分布式系统。
And more and more of these posts just started to just pop up on Hacker News.
越来越多的此类帖子开始出现在黑客新闻上。
People would either submit it, or sometimes when I submitted it, it would just do well.
人们要么会提交它，要么有时当我提交它时，它会做得很好。
And I was thinking, so people...
我在想，所以人们...
I started to get this validation, people care about what I write.
我开始得到这种验证，人们关心我写的东西。
Gergely Orosz: And to question of the success of the newsletter, by the time I launched a newsletter, I had a lot of posts that a lot of software engineers read, and there was a very famous post about performance management, how to do performance reviews.
Gergely Orosz：关于时事通讯是否成功的问题，当我推出时事通讯时，我有很多帖子被很多软件工程师阅读，其中有一篇关于绩效管理、如何进行绩效评估的非常著名的帖子。
I wrote one about the tri-modal nature of software engineering salaries, where I observed that there's three different tiers that are...
我写了一篇关于软件工程薪资的三模式性质的文章，其中我观察到存在三个不同的层次......
There's big tech and there's local companies.
有大型科技公司，也有本地公司。
And I think what happened is, when I announced that I'm going to write this newsletter, I also put it on the blog.
我想发生的事情是，当我宣布我要写这份时事通讯时，我也把它放在了博客上。
A lot of people realize that they...
很多人意识到他们...
"I've been reading this Pragmatic Engineer, I don't know who is behind it, but I like it.
“我一直在读这本务实的工程师，我不知道它的背后是谁，但我喜欢它。
Let me sign up.
让我报名吧。
I do want to get an email every week, instead of the things that were every now and then."
我确实希望每周收到一封电子邮件，而不是时不时收到一封电子邮件。”
Gergely Orosz: So there was years of work, and I wish I could tell you how to build a successful newsletter, but the best advice I have is still what Jeff Atwood does, except I have less conviction.
Gergely Orosz：经过多年的努力，我希望我能告诉你如何制作一份成功的时事通讯，但我最好的建议仍然是杰夫·阿特伍德所做的，只是我的信念不那么坚定。
But if you start writing, and you do it regularly, two things will happen.
但如果你开始写作，并且定期写作，就会发生两件事。
First of all, you're going to you write for yourself and you keep improving, you'll be a better writer.
首先，你要为自己写作，不断进步，你会成为一个更好的作家。
That's for sure.
这是肯定的。
If you're lucky or if you're right about stuff, you might start to attract people who think similarly.
如果你很幸运或者你的观点是正确的，你可能会开始吸引那些有类似想法的人。
So step one is get started.
所以第一步就是开始。
Step two is keep it up.
第二步是坚持下去。
And my suggestion is for yourself.
我的建议是给你自己的。
The weird thing is, until I started my newsletter, I never thought I would turn this ever into a business, but it always felt rewarding.
奇怪的是，在我开始写时事通讯之前，我从未想过会把它变成一项生意，但它总是让人感觉很有价值。
So I never...
所以我从来不...
If you're starting out writing a newsletter to do what I'm doing one day, it might work out.
如果你有一天开始写一份时事通讯来做我正在做的事情，它可能会成功。
But interesting enough, I never even thought that this was an opportunity.
但有趣的是，我从来没有想过这是一个机会。
Lenny: So people listening to this that are thinking about, should I explore this life?
莱尼：所以听这个的人都在想，我应该探索这种生活吗？
If you think about your story, you wrote a book, you blogged for a while before this, you worked at Uber for a number of years.
如果你想想你的故事，你写了一本书，你在此之前写过一段时间博客，你在 Uber 工作了很多年。
In a sense, it comes across a little bit like, there's no way I can be successful if that's the background I need to have.
从某种意义上说，这有点像，如果这是我需要拥有的背景，我就不可能成功。
I have to have written things and worked at an awesome tech company.
我必须写过东西并在一家很棒的科技公司工作过。
What advice do you give folks that are coming to you being like, "Gergely, should I start a newsletter?
对于那些来找你的人，你会给出什么建议，“Gergely，我应该开始写一份时事通讯吗？
Does it make sense for me?" Do you need the background that you have, do you think?
这对我来说有意义吗？”你认为你需要你所拥有的背景吗？
Gergely Orosz: Don't forget that when I started my blog, I didn't have any of this.
Gergely Orosz：别忘了，当我开始写博客时，我还没有这些。
Lenny: And this is while you were at Uber.
莱尼：这是你在 Uber 工作的时候。
This is before you started the newsletter.
这是在您开始新闻通讯之前。
Gergely Orosz: It was before I was at Uber.
Gergely Orosz：那是在我加入 Uber 之前。
So I was maybe at Skyscanner, or maybe at Skype, but I was even blogging before.
所以我可能在 Skyscanner，或者可能在 Skype，但我之前甚至写过博客。
I was talking to conferences before.
我之前在会议上讲话。
So my advice really would be, if you're thinking of a newsletter or something similar, start teaching and sharing what you know and what you're observing.
所以我的建议是，如果您正在考虑制作时事通讯或类似的东西，请开始教学和分享您所知道的和您所观察到的内容。
This could be a newsletter, this could be a YouTube video, this could be going to meetup.
这可能是一份时事通讯，这可能是一个 YouTube 视频，这可能是一次聚会。
Actually, ten years ago I went to a lot of meetups where I presented all sorts I met a lot of cool people.
事实上，十年前我参加了很多聚会，在那里我展示了我遇到的很多很酷的人。
I would say, share your knowledge one way or the other.
我想说，以某种方式分享你的知识。
And as you're doing it, you're going to learn a lot more.
当你这样做时，你会学到更多。
Gergely Orosz: So what I find...
Gergely Orosz：所以我发现......
This is true, when I was a manager, we had to set goals, and I told people there's two types of goals you can set.
确实如此，当我担任经理时，我们必须设定目标，我告诉人们可以设定两种类型的目标。
One is people set this goal, I want to be promoted the next thing, or I want to lead this big project.
一个是人们设定了这个目标，我想在接下来的事情中得到晋升，或者我想领导这个大项目。
And those are bad goals, because it's not in your control.
这些都是糟糕的目标，因为它不在你的控制范围内。
So setting a goal that I want to have a successful newsletter with, I don't know, 20,000 subscribers, that's a goal where you're not in charge.
因此，设定一个目标，我希望拥有一份成功的时事通讯，我不知道，有 20,000 名订阅者，这是一个你无法负责的目标。
A good goal is what you can do.
一个好的目标就是你能做到的。
So a good goal for example is, I want to learn this new language in the next year, which I'm going to spend time on, or I want to leave work at 5:00 PM on Fridays to be home with family.
例如，一个好的目标是，我想在明年学习这门新语言，我将花时间在这上面，或者我想在周五下午 5:00 下班回家与家人团聚。
So set those goals that you can control.
因此，设定您可以控制的目标。
Gergely Orosz: And this is how actually my blog started initially.
Gergely Orosz：这就是我的博客最初的开始方式。
My goal was, I want to write once a month.
我的目标是，我想每月写一次。
And I did that for a while, and I was proud about that.
我这样做了一段时间，我为此感到自豪。
Or whenever I learn something, I actually want to share it every now and then.
或者每当我学到一些东西时，我实际上想时不时地分享它。
So I would say set those goals, and the rest will come, probably.
所以我想说，设定这些目标，剩下的可能就会实现。
Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to talk people out of doing it.
再次强调，不要误会我的意思，我并不是想劝说人们不要这样做。
But for me, a lot of this was luck.
但对我来说，这很大程度上是运气。
And the other thing that I would suggest is be curious, and look at your professional career as well.
我建议的另一件事是保持好奇心，并看看你的职业生涯。
One thing that definitely helped me is getting pedigree.
对我绝对有帮助的一件事就是获得血统书。
I come from a small country, from a really good university which no-one knows about, but I didn't grow up in let's say Silicon Valley, so I actually made a subconscious point to try to work my way up.
我来自一个小国家，来自一所无人知晓的非常好的大学，但我不是在硅谷长大的，所以我实际上下意识地想努力向上。
And after I got to let's say JPMorgan in London, I was pretty picky of where I would go next.
当我到达伦敦的摩根大通之后，我对下一步要去的地方非常挑剔。
So that's why, when Skype came along this is great.
这就是为什么当 Skype 出现时，这真是太棒了。
Everyone knows Skype, I love Skype.
每个人都知道 Skype，我喜欢 Skype。
And it was same thing with Uber.
Uber 的情况也是如此。
Gergely Orosz: So especially these days, people would not pay nearly as much attention to me if I worked at Small Parts Limited.
Gergely Orosz：尤其是现在，如果我在 Small Parts Limited 工作，人们就不会那么关注我了。
So there's that part as well.
所以还有那部分。
So you need to manage some of these things, figure out what you want to do.
所以你需要管理其中一些事情，弄清楚你想做什么。
For a long time, I pretty much thought that I just want to climb the corporate ladder and prove that I'm good enough at all these companies.
很长一段时间，我几乎以为我只是想爬上公司的阶梯并证明我在所有这些公司都足够出色。
I was just doing all this stuff on the side.
我只是在一边做这些事情。
It's interesting how it's now flipped, and now doing these things, this is my main thing, which used to be my side project.
有趣的是它现在如何翻转，现在做这些事情，这是我的主要事情，这曾经是我的副业项目。
Gergely Orosz: And I guess one last advice is, do some side projects.
Gergely Orosz：我想最后一个建议是，做一些副业项目。
All of this starts as a side project.
所有这一切都是从一个副项目开始的。
At work, no-one's really going to appreciate that you're doing a newsletter or this or that.
在工作中，没有人会真正欣赏你在做新闻通讯或这个或那个。
Try stuff on the side, assuming that you have time.
假设你有时间，可以尝试一些副业。
Or if you don't have time, try to make time.
或者，如果您没有时间，请尝试腾出时间。
Because I feel a lot of what we're doing is pretty entrepreneurial, and the only way you're going to get these muscles, if you start some small things.
因为我觉得我们正在做的很多事情都非常具有创业精神，如果你开始一些小事情，那么你获得这些力量的唯一方法就是。
Lenny: You talk about the pedigree being important.
莱尼：你说血统很重要。
I think there's also an even deeper point, that you actually need real experience doing real things that scaled and worked and mattered and worked with amazing people, to actually build a foundation to write about, share wisdom from.
我认为还有一个更深层次的观点，即你实际上需要真正的经验，做真正的事情，规模化、有效、重要、与优秀的人一起工作，才能真正建立一个基础来写作、分享智慧。
And that's really important.
这真的很重要。
There's a lot of people starting newsletters and tweeting who haven't done much and don't have a lot of real life experience to share.
有很多人开始发新闻通讯和发推文，但他们并没有做太多事情，也没有很多现实生活经验可以分享。
And I think that's the core of a lot of what we do, is it needs to be based on real things that worked and that you've learned, or that you have access to other people who have learned these things.
我认为这是我们所做的很多事情的核心，它需要基于有效的、你已经学到的真实的东西，或者你可以接触到其他已经学到这些东西的人。
Gergely Orosz: I would say that, but one thing that I'll double down that's a really good observation is, if you're serious, like one day I will want to write a book or a newsletter, it's kind of the same thing, or teach people about stuff, look at the people that you look up to that you actually trust.
Gergely Orosz：我会这么说，但我要加倍强调的是，这是一个非常好的观察，如果你是认真的，就像有一天我想写一本书或一份时事通讯，这是同样的事情，或者教人们一些东西，看看你真正信任的那些你尊敬的人。
Maybe it's me a bit or maybe it's you, but it's more likely people like Kent Beck, for example.
也许是我，也可能是你，但更有可能是像肯特·贝克这样的人。
He's the creator of TDD, and he's written a lot of books.
他是 TDD 的创始人，并且写了很多书。
He's one of my favorite people, I think he's coming up 50 or 60 if he listens to this, sorry if...
他是我最喜欢的人之一，如果他听这个，我想他会升到 50 或 60 岁，抱歉……
I don't want seem old, but what I love about Kent Beck, is he's been in the middle of it.
我不想显得老，但我喜欢肯特·贝克的原因是他一直处于其中。
He has always worked in the industry, and that he wrote about it.
他一直在这个行业工作，并且他写过相关的文章。
But for example, I think he invented or he was a co-inventor of...
但举例来说，我认为他发明了或者他是……的共同发明者。
Was it TDD or extreme program...
是 TDD 还是极限程序...
Anyway, one of these methodologies.
无论如何，这些方法之一。
Gergely Orosz: And then went to work at Facebook.
Gergely Orosz：然后去 Facebook 工作。
He took a title cut to be a software engineer, and then he hosts the TDD workshop, the test driven development workshop, and no-one showed up at Facebook.
他晋升为软件工程师，然后主持了 TDD 研讨会、测试驱动开发研讨会，但 Facebook 上却没有人露面。
And Facebook did no testing, which went against all commercial wisdom.
Facebook 没有进行任何测试，这违背了所有商业智慧。
And he took that risk joining this company where he could have been...
他冒着风险加入了这家他本可以去的公司……
People would've knelt down to him anywhere else, but he went to this company where he just wanted to learn.
在其他地方人们都会向他下跪，但他却来到了这家他只是想学习的公司。
He's this lifelong learner.
他是一个终身学习者。
He's right now writing a book.
他现在正在写一本书。
But what I think if you want to be someone who people listen to, yes, do cool and interesting stuff, push yourself to get into places that do these interesting things.
但我认为，如果你想成为人们倾听的人，是的，做一些酷而有趣的事情，推动自己进入做这些有趣事情的地方。
Gergely Orosz: That's how, when I went to Uber in 2016, it was one of the highest regarded places back in 2016, and in 2017 it was the other way around.
Gergely Orosz：就是这样，当我 2016 年加入 Uber 时，它是 2016 年最受推崇的地方之一，而 2017 年则相反。
But back in 2016, people were turning down Facebook and Google offers to go at Uber, which we all thought would change the world.
但早在 2016 年，人们就拒绝了 Facebook 和谷歌收购 Uber 的提议，我们都认为这会改变世界。
So you do need to get into those teams that are doing interesting stuff, prove that you can do that, and you'll have a lot more interesting stories to share, that's for sure.
所以你确实需要加入那些正在做有趣事情的团队，证明你可以做到这一点，并且你会有更多有趣的故事可以分享，这是肯定的。
Lenny: If you had to boil down advice for how to be successful in this life of a newsletter, you had to boil it down to just one or two key pieces of advice, what would you say?
莱尼：如果你必须将如何在时事通讯中取得成功的建议归结为一两个关键建议，你会怎么说？
Gergely Orosz: One is habit of depth in the field, whatever field you do.
Gergely Orosz：一是在该领域有深度的习惯，无论你从事什么领域。
So this might mean that I think...
所以这可能意味着我认为...
I don't want to say that if you don't have experience, don't start one, but it's kind of true.
我不想说如果你没有经验就不要开始，但这是事实。
So become an expert somewhere, somehow, before you start, because you'll be a lot more credible.
因此，在开始之前，以某种方式成为某个地方的专家，因为这样你会更加可信。
I think there's no shortage of reporters and journalists who don't know about stuff, but they can interview people, but that doesn't give anything extra, and I think people feel that.
我认为不乏记者和不懂事的记者，但他们可以采访别人，但这并没有带来任何额外的东西，我认为人们也有这种感觉。
Gergely Orosz: So I would say choose a field that you're going to be good at.
Gergely Orosz：所以我想说选择一个你擅长的领域。
And you can start on the side, doing this.
你可以从侧面开始，这样做。
Assuming you have something, you're someone with experience in the industry or you have insights, wisdom, observations to share, start doing so, in whatever format.
假设你有一些东西，你是一个在行业中有经验的人，或者你有见解、智慧、观察来分享，开始以任何形式分享。
I do newsletters.
我做时事通讯。
There's actually YouTube, a lot of people are becoming pretty successful on YouTube sharing their thing.
实际上有 YouTube，很多人在 YouTube 上分享他们的东西变得非常成功。
Three, have a cadence and stick to it, to some extent, because you do need to keep repeating it.
第三，有节奏并在某种程度上坚持下去，因为你确实需要不断重复它。
And then four, don't be afraid to try out new things.
第四，不要害怕尝试新事物。
A good example of a person who did these is Steve Yegge.
史蒂夫·叶格（Steve Yegge）就是这样做的一个很好的例子。
Steve Yegge is...
史蒂夫·叶格是...
Have you heard of Steve Yegge?
你听说过史蒂夫·耶吉吗？
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
He wrote some epic long...
他写了一些史诗般的长...
Gergely Orosz: He used to work at Amazon, and then at Google he wrote this internal email about platforms, about how Amazon is great at platforms and Google is terrible.
Gergely Orosz：他曾经在亚马逊工作，后来在谷歌工作，他写了这封关于平台的内部电子邮件，讲述了亚马逊如何在平台方面表现出色，而谷歌则很糟糕。
And he was really well known at Google, because he wrote stuff inside Google.
他在谷歌非常有名，因为他在谷歌内部写过东西。
So he's experienced, knows a lot of stuff, and then he quit Google and he started to do a podcast that's on YouTube.
所以他经验丰富，懂得很多东西，然后他退出了 Google，开始在 YouTube 上制作播客。
You could check it out, it's called Stevey's Podcast.
你可以查一下，它叫史蒂夫的播客。
And what he did is, every week he recorded an episode and he talked about a bunch of his learnings, a lot of stuff, and he was pretty clear up front when he started the first one, he said, "What I'm doing is, I'm going to do this for six months and I'll see if it sticks, see if people care about it or people watch it."
他所做的是，每周他都会录制一集，并谈论他的一堆学习成果，很多东西，当他开始第一集时，他很清楚，他说，“我要做的是，我将这样做六个月，我会看看它是否坚持下去，看看人们是否关心它或人们观看它。”
Gergely Orosz: Now, this guy had a lot of experience, really fun I think it's really fun to listen to.
Gergely Orosz：现在，这个人有很多经验，真的很有趣，我认为听他的声音真的很有趣。
And in the end, it was I think successful.
最后，我认为这是成功的。
It got a couple thousand or maybe even 10,000 subscribers, but it wasn't this rocket ship.
它有几千甚至一万名订阅者，但它不是这艘火箭飞船。
And I think what he did, he just stopped after six months, and he actually started head of engineering at Sourcegraph, he actually went back industry.
我认为他所做的，六个月后他就停下来了，他实际上开始在 Sourcegraph 担任工程主管，他实际上回到了工业界。
But what I love about this, it shows that you cannot guarantee having success, but you can do what he did, which is start something, do a cadence, see if it sticks.
但我喜欢这一点，它表明你不能保证成功，但你可以做他所做的事情，那就是开始一些事情，做一个节奏，看看它是否坚持。
If not, either pivot or do something else.
如果没有，要么调整方向，要么做其他事情。
I feel the world is kind of about that as well.
我觉得这个世界也是如此。
Gergely Orosz: If you think about...
Gergely Orosz：如果你想……
Take a step back of, what is a successful newsletter?
退一步来说，什么是成功的时事通讯？
What is a successful podcast?
什么是成功的播客？
What is a successful YouTube channel?
什么是成功的 YouTube 频道？
And it's stuff that's interesting.
这是很有趣的事情。
It's either entertaining or educational.
它要么具有娱乐性，要么具有教育意义。
But all of these things, you can't really put a finger on.
但所有这些事情，你都无法真正指出。
If you watch YouTube, Mr. Beast is someone who you probably came across, I actually like watching his videos and how good he does it, but it's not something you can anyone would have written in a book.
如果你看 YouTube，你可能会遇到野兽先生，我实际上很喜欢看他的视频以及他做得有多好，但这不是任何人都能写在书里的。
So there is a sense of trying to understand what people care about, and a good way to understand is either experiment or observe or just try out stuff.
因此，有一种试图理解人们关心什么的感觉，而理解的一个好方法是实验或观察，或者只是尝试一些东西。
Lenny: This is great.
莱尼：这太棒了。
I feel like I can boil this down even further from everything you just said, which is, build depth in an area, then write a blog post twice a week for two years, and good things will happen.
我觉得我可以从你刚才所说的一切进一步归结为这一点，那就是，在一个领域建立深度，然后每周写两次博客文章，持续两年，好事就会发生。
Gergely Orosz: I'm pretty sure.
Gergely Orosz：我很确定。
And here's an interesting thought as well, just for closure.
这里还有一个有趣的想法，仅供结束。
I was talking with someone on why my newsletter is so successful.
我正在和某人谈论为什么我的时事通讯如此成功。
It's really successful, and I honestly don't know why.
它真的很成功，老实说我不知道为什么。
And this person told me something interesting.
这个人告诉了我一些有趣的事情。
This is a person who had a really successful YouTube channel with about 200,000 subscribers, so more than my newsletter.
这个人拥有一个非常成功的 YouTube 频道，拥有大约 20 万订阅者，比我的时事通讯还要多。
And he said this.
他这样说。
He's like, "What I noticed is, you started your blog in 2015, 2016, and I started my YouTube channel in 2019 or something like that.
他说，“我注意到，你在 2015 年、2016 年开始了你的博客，而我在 2019 年开始了我的 YouTube 频道或类似的事情。
And on YouTube, there's so much quality, there's super high great productions, everyone is doing YouTube." And he said, "You know what I don't see?
YouTube 上的质量非常高，有超高的精彩作品，每个人都在做 YouTube。”他说：“你知道我看不到什么吗？
I don't see many blogs that are writing in depth stuff regularly.
我没有看到很多博客定期撰写深入的内容。
I feel everyone went over to YouTube or TikTok.
我觉得每个人都去了 YouTube 或 TikTok。
So there is the other angle of the medium." And I'm saying this, not but it might be an advantage.
所以还有媒介的另一个角度。”我这么说，不是，但这可能是一个优势。
These days, fewer people write, because I think a lot of people find it hard and more people will do videos.
现在写文章的人越来越少了，因为我觉得很多人都觉得很难，更多的人会做视频。
And you can take advantage of some of these shifts, which might be good or bad.
您可以利用其中一些转变，这些转变可能是好是坏。
Gergely Orosz: So if you're going to be a really well known person on YouTube, you might get more people watching you, but you'll have a lot more competition.
Gergely Orosz：所以，如果你想成为 YouTube 上的知名人士，你可能会有更多人关注你，但你也会面临更多的竞争。
And the last thing is that for me, writing, especially with software engineers, it's really efficient, because I can scan through it.
最后一件事是，对我来说，写作，尤其是与软件工程师一起写作，真的非常高效，因为我可以浏览它。
I don't like YouTube videos, especially for learning about stuff, because I can't even scan through the whole thing.
我不喜欢 YouTube 视频，尤其是学习知识的视频，因为我什至无法浏览整个内容。
It's just really time consuming.
这真的很耗时。
Gergely Orosz: So I think, decide if you want to do entertainment, which for these podcast listeners, I don't think that's in the question, you're competing with the likes of Spotify and Netflix.
Gergely Orosz：所以我认为，决定是否想做娱乐，对于这些播客听众来说，我认为这不是问题，你正在与 Spotify 和 Netflix 等公司竞争。
Education, which is a little bit more dry, but it's really useful.
教育，虽然有点枯燥，但是确实很有用。
Or edutainment, which is entertaining education.
或者说寓教于乐，即寓教于乐的教育。
And once you figure that out, either if it's education or edutainment, you can figure out what format might work both for the medium and for you.
一旦你弄清楚了这一点，无论是教育还是寓教于乐，你就可以弄清楚哪种格式既适合媒体又适合你。
And at end of the day, you need to enjoy it.
一天结束时，您需要享受它。
I personally have learned over time to love writing.
随着时间的推移，我个人已经学会了热爱写作。
I love being in the zone.
我喜欢呆在这个区域。
So for me it's not really work, but it's fun.
所以对我来说这并不是真正的工作，但很有趣。
And once you find that thing, whatever that might be, it just makes it easier.
一旦你找到了那个东西，无论它是什么，它都会让事情变得更容易。
Lenny: Gergely, it's always so fun talking about newsletter stuff.
Lenny：Gergely，谈论时事通讯的事情总是很有趣。
I don't have many people to talk about this life with.
我没有多少人可以谈论这一生。
I hope this was useful to people who are exploring this path, thinking about it, or even the different creator path.
我希望这对正在探索这条道路、思考它、甚至是不同的创造者道路的人们有用。
Just two final questions.
最后只有两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out or learn more?
如果人们想联系或了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Gergely Orosz: You can find me at pragmaticengineer.com.
Gergely Orosz：您可以在 pragmaticengineer.com 上找到我。
There is a bunch of stuff listed there from the Twitter, LinkedIn, my talent collective, some of the companies that I invest in, et cetera.
那里列出了很多来自 Twitter、LinkedIn、我的人才集体、我投资的一些公司等等的东西。
Everything's there.
一切都在那里。
And you can also sign up to my newsletter.
您也可以订阅我的时事通讯。
Listeners being useful to me...
听众对我有用...
If you work in tech, consider signing up to my newsletter.
如果您从事科技工作，请考虑订阅我的时事通讯。
I always tell people we're a complimentary newsletter.
我总是告诉人们我们是一份免费时事通讯。
If you work in product or have an interest in product newsletter is an awesome choice.
如果您从事产品工作或对产品通讯感兴趣，那么新闻通讯是一个不错的选择。
With software engineering management, it goes the other way.
对于软件工程管理来说，情况恰恰相反。
And it's not just...
而且这不仅仅是...
People are telling me when they're data scientists or even product folks, sometimes they get some value out of it.
人们告诉我，当他们是数据科学家甚至产品人员时，有时他们会从中获得一些价值。
Gergely Orosz: I write this column called the scoop every Thursday.
Gergely Orosz：我每周四都会写这个名为“独家新闻”的专栏。
If you hear of any interesting scoop happening, especially relevant for techies, this might be some change in the workplace, like your company is just rolling out agile team at Twitter did, feel free to ping me, just a short search for sending scoop to the Pragmatic Engineer.
如果您听说发生任何有趣的独家新闻，特别是与技术人员相关的新闻，这可能是工作场所的一些变化，就像您的公司刚刚在 Twitter 上推出敏捷团队所做的那样，请随时联系我，只需简单搜索一下将独家新闻发送给务实工程师即可。
I treat everything as anonymous, so you can tell me interesting stuff.
我把一切都视为匿名，所以你可以告诉我有趣的事情。
I'm typically interested in the stuff that you might not read about in the traditional media, but us techies really care about.
我通常对您可能在传统媒体上读不到的东西感兴趣，但我们技术人员真正关心。
Gergely Orosz: And finally, if you work at Google and you want anonymity to talk to me, just ping me, because one of my next articles will be Google's engineering culture.
Gergely Orosz：最后，如果您在 Google 工作并且希望匿名与我交谈，请联系我，因为我的下一篇文章将是 Google 的工程文化。
I wrote one about Facebook, one about Amazon, and I tried to talk with mostly software engineers to get a sense of how these companies work from a software engineer and engineer manager perspective.
我写了一篇关于 Facebook 的文章，一篇关于亚马逊的文章，我尝试与大多数软件工程师交谈，以从软件工程师和工程师经理的角度了解这些公司的运作方式。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
I hope this comes out before that post comes out, but if not, then enjoy that post.
我希望这篇文章发布之前能发布，但如果没有，那就享受这篇文章吧。
Gergely, thank you so much for being here.
Gergely，非常感谢您来到这里。
This was awesome.
这太棒了。
And maybe we'll do a V2 as things continue to grow.
随着事情的不断发展，也许我们会推出 V2。
Gergely Orosz: Awesome.
盖尔盖伊·奥罗斯：太棒了。
It was great being here, Lenny.
来到这里真是太好了，莱尼。
Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。