Mastering onboarding | Lauryn Isford (Head of Growth at Airtable)
Gaurav Misra: There's rarely a time like this where so much is possible.
Gaurav Misra：很少有像现在这样有这么多可能性的时刻。
Even like five, seven years ago, it's so hard to start a company.
即使像五、七年前一样，创办一家公司也是如此困难。
Everything feels like it's done, someone else is working on it.
一切都感觉像是已经完成了，其他人正在处理它。
Suddenly, it's a time, right now, which I've never even experienced, where everything you try just works.
突然间，现在是我从未经历过的时刻，你尝试的一切都会起作用。
Lenny Rachitsky: With people constantly hearing about all the things happening.
Lenny Rachitsky：人们不断地听到正在发生的所有事情。
Is there any tools or processes or approaches you've figured out to help stay focused?
您是否找到了任何工具、流程或方法来帮助您保持专注？
Gaurav Misra: Our engineering goal is every engineer should ship a marketable product every week.
Gaurav Misra：我们的工程目标是每个工程师每周都应该推出一款适销对路的产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love just how wild that sounds.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这听起来多么狂野。
How do you maintain quality and make it all cohesive?
如何保持质量并使其具有凝聚力？
Gaurav Misra: I actually think as a startup your job is to take on technical debt because that is how you operate faster than a bigger company.
Gaurav Misra：我实际上认为，作为一家初创公司，你的工作就是承担技术债务，因为这就是你比大公司运营得更快的方式。
Bigger companies don't take contact technical debt, they pay it usually right away, or they're paying back technical debt from the days when they were a startup.
大公司不会承担接触技术债务，他们通常会立即支付，或者他们会偿还初创公司时期的技术债务。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything else that in how you operate and the way you build product that you think is really unique and interesting?
Lenny Rachitsky：在您的运营方式和构建产品的方式中，还有什么您认为真正独特且有趣的吗？
Gaurav Misra: We have what we think of as the public roadmap.
Gaurav Misra：我们有我们所认为的公共路线图。
This is basically what people have asked us for.
这基本上就是人们对我们的要求。
There's all these surface areas where we receive user feedback, but these are all features that every competitor knows about.
我们在所有这些表面领域收到用户反馈，但这些都是每个竞争对手都知道的功能。
If a user is asking us for it, they're asking everybody for it.
如果用户向我们索要，他们就是在向所有人索要。
Gaurav Misra: It's not going to be a game changer in terms of winning against your competition.
Gaurav Misra：就赢得竞争对手而言，这不会改变游戏规则。
So we have a second roadmap which we think of as a secret roadmap.
所以我们有第二个路线图，我们认为这是一个秘密路线图。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Gaurav Misra.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Gaurav Misra。
Gaurav was an early employee at Snap where he led the design engineering team, which he explains in the conversation.
Gaurav 是 Snap 的早期员工，他领导着设计工程团队，他在谈话中对此进行了解释。
He's also an engineer at Microsoft and a couple other companies.
他还是微软和其他几家公司的工程师。
Most recently, he's the co-founder and CEO of Captions, one of the most successful and cutting-edge consumer AI products, which lets you generate and edit talking videos with AI.
最近，他是 Captions 的联合创始人兼首席执行官，Captions 是最成功、最前沿的消费者人工智能产品之一，可让您使用人工智能生成和编辑对话视频。
They have over 10 million users and have raised over a hundred million dollars.
他们拥有超过 1000 万用户，并筹集了超过一亿美元的资金。
Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation, we essentially do an archeology of how a modern AI oriented startup operates, including how every single engineer at their company ships a marketable product or feature every single week.
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，我们本质上是对现代人工智能初创公司的运作方式进行了考古，包括他们公司的每位工程师如何每周推出适销对路的产品或功能。
Why they have a secret roadmap, in addition to a regular roadmap.
为什么除了常规路线图之外，他们还有秘密路线图。
We also get in-depth about how Snap as a product team operated.
我们还深入了解 Snap 作为产品团队的运作方式。
What he's learned about what it takes to build a successful consumer and social app, why they had no PMs and how designers ran the show, which may or may not have been a great idea.
他了解到如何构建一个成功的消费者和社交应用程序，为什么他们没有产品经理，以及设计师如何主持节目，这可能是也可能不是一个好主意。
And also what happens in a world where AI video is so good that you have no idea if it's real or not.
在人工智能视频如此出色以至于你不知道它是真是假的世界里会发生什么。
This episode is for anyone that is building a product on top of AI.
本集适合任何在人工智能之上构建产品的人。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序中关注它。
And also, I just launched an insane deal for subscribers of my newsletter.
而且，我刚刚为我的时事通讯的订阅者推出了一项疯狂的交易。
Every yearly subscriber now gets a year free of Notion, Perplexity, Superhuman, Linear and Granola.
现在，每个年度订阅者都可以免费使用一年的 Notion、Perplexity、Super human、Linear 和 Granola。
Learn more at lennysnewsletter.com.
了解更多信息，请访问 lennysnewsletter.com。
With that, I bring you Gaurav Misra.
接下来，我为您带来高拉夫·米斯拉 (Gaurav Misra)。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Brex, the financial stack used by one in every three US venture-backed startups.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Brex 为您带来，Brex 是美国三分之一的风险投资支持的初创公司使用的金融堆栈。
Brex knows the nearly 40% of startups fail because they run out of cash, so they built a banking experience that focuses on helping founders get more from every dollar.
Brex 知道近 40% 的初创公司因为现金耗尽而失败，因此他们建立了银行业务经验，专注于帮助创始人从每一美元中获得更多收益。
It's a stark difference from traditional banking options that leave a startup's cash sitting idle while chipping away at it with fees.
这与传统的银行业务截然不同，传统的银行业务让初创公司的现金闲置，同时通过费用来削减资金。
To help founders protect cash and extend runway, Brex combined the best things about checking treasury and FDIC insurance in one powerhouse account.
为了帮助创始人保护现金并延长跑道，Brex 将检查财务和 FDIC 保险的最佳功能整合到一个强大的账户中。
You can send and receive money worldwide at lightning speed.
您可以在全球范围内以闪电般的速度汇款和收款。
You can get 20x the standard FDIC protection through program banks and you can earn industry-leading yield from your first dollar while still being able to access your funds anytime.
您可以通过计划银行获得 20 倍于标准 FDIC 的保护，并且可以从您的第一美元中赚取行业领先的收益，同时仍然能够随时提取您的资金。
To learn more, check out Brex at brex.com/banking-solutions.
要了解更多信息，请访问 brex.com/banking-solutions 查看 Brex。
That's brex.com/banking-solutions.
这是 brex.com/banking-solutions。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Paragon.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Paragon 为您带来。
The integration infrastructure for B2B SaaS companies is AI on your 2025 product roadmap.
B2B SaaS 公司的集成基础设施是 2025 年产品路线图上的 AI。
Whether you need to enable RAG with your user's external data like Google Drive files, Gong transcripts, or Jira tickets, or build AI agents that can automate work across your user's other tools, integrations are the foundation.
无论您是需要使用用户的外部数据（例如 Google Drive 文件、Gong 成绩单或 Jira 票据）启用 RAG，还是构建可以跨用户的其他工具自动执行工作的 AI 代理，集成都是基础。
But building all these integrations in-house will cost you years of engineering, time you don't have given the fast pace of AI.
但在内部构建所有这些集成将花费您数年的工程时间，而这些时间是您无法适应人工智能的快速发展的。
That's where Paragon's all-in-one integration platform comes in.
这就是 Paragon 一体化集成平台的用武之地。
Build scalable workflows to ingest all of your user's external data into your RAG pipelines.
构建可扩展的工作流程，将所有用户的外部数据提取到 RAG 管道中。
And leverage, ActionKit, their latest product to instantly give your AI agents access to over 100 integrations and thousands of third-party actions with a single API call.
利用他们的最新产品 ActionKit，您的 AI 代理只需一次 API 调用即可立即访问 100 多个集成和数千个第三方操作。
Lenny Rachitsky: Leading AI companies like AI21, you.com, 11X, and Copy.ai are already shipping new integrations seven times faster with Paragon keeping their engineers focused on core product development.
Lenny Rachitsky：AI21、you.com、11X 和 Copy.ai 等领先的人工智能公司已经以七倍的速度交付新的集成，Paragon 让他们的工程师专注于核心产品开发。
Ready to accelerate your AI roadmap this year, visit useparagon.com/lenny to get a free MVP of your next product integration.
准备好今年加速您的 AI 路线图，请访问 useparagon.com/lenny，获取下一个产品集成的免费 MVP。
Lenny Rachitsky: Gaurav, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：Gaurav，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Gaurav Misra: Thank you.
高拉夫·米斯拉：谢谢。
Thanks for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Excited.
兴奋的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I very rarely have early stage founders on the podcast, but I wanted to chat with you because you're at the center of so much of what is top of mind for a lot of builders these days, AI and video, and just consumer and social apps.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很少有早期创始人出现在播客上，但我想和你聊天，因为你是当今许多开发者最关心的事情的中心，人工智能和视频，以及消费者和社交应用程序。
Lenny Rachitsky: Also going viral and finding new marketing channels.
Lenny Rachitsky：同时也走红并寻找新的营销渠道。
So I think there's a lot that people can learn from the way you approach product, the way you've built product and the way you just think about where things are going.
所以我认为人们可以从你处理产品的方式、构建产品的方式以及你思考事情发展方向的方式中学到很多东西。
So again, thank you for being here.
再次感谢您来到这里。
Gaurav Misra: Appreciate it.
高拉夫·米斯拉：很欣赏。
Honestly, it's an exciting time.
老实说，这是一个令人兴奋的时刻。
I got to say like there's rarely a time like this where so much is possible.
我不得不说，很少有像现在这样有这么多可能性的时刻。
In normal times, if you think about even five, seven years ago, it's so hard to start a company.
正常情况下，想想五七年前，创办一家公司是多么困难。
It's so hard to come up with an idea.
很难想出一个主意。
It's just like everything feels like it's done, someone else is working on it.
就好像一切都已经完成了，其他人正在处理它。
Or it's like, oh it's been tried three times and failed three times.
或者就像，哦，已经尝试了三次，但失败了三次。
And suddenly, it's a time, right now, which I've never even experienced honestly in my career, where everything you try just works.
突然间，现在是我职业生涯中从未真正经历过的时刻，你尝试的一切都会奏效。
Gaurav Misra: There's so many possibilities.
Gaurav Misra：有很多可能性。
There's not enough people in the world to work on them.
世界上没有足够的人来从事这些工作。
Honestly.
诚实地。
There's more things that can be done than there's people available to do them.
可以做的事情比可以做的人还多。
It is just such a rare thing.
这是非常罕见的事情。
And honestly, it's not going to last forever.
老实说，它不会永远持续下去。
We are going to catch up to this, but just feels lucky to be part of that movement.
我们将赶上这一点，但很幸运能够成为这一运动的一部分。
It's awesome.
太棒了。
Lenny Rachitsky: When you said everything is working, I think what's an important distinction there is the building of the tool works.
Lenny Rachitsky：当你说一切正常时，我认为一个重要的区别是工具的构建。
The tech is now there to build all these things that have not been possible before.
现在的技术可以构建所有这些以前不可能的东西。
The thing that is increasingly, difficult, and I want to get your take on this, is getting anyone to pay attention and stick with your thing because it's so easy to build stuff and everything is just awesome and interesting.
越来越困难的事情是让任何人关注并坚持你的东西，因为构建东西是如此容易，而且一切都很棒且有趣，我想听听你对此的看法。
It's harder to get people to pay attention and stick with your product.
让人们关注并坚持使用你的产品变得更加困难。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I guess is there anything there, you've learned that you've built a number of successful products.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我想有没有什么，你已经了解到你已经构建了许多成功的产品。
We'll talk about Snap and what you're doing now, about just, I don't know, what you need to think about these days to get anyone to pay attention and then stick around.
我们将讨论 Snap 以及您现在正在做的事情，只是，我不知道，这些天您需要考虑什么才能引起人们的注意并留下来。
Gaurav Misra: Yeah, I mean honestly it's a great point and I think there is a lot of hype obviously, and part of it, that's what's driving a lot of this growth for a lot of companies.
Gaurav Misra：是的，老实说，我的意思是，这是一个很好的观点，我认为显然有很多炒作，其中一部分是推动许多公司实现增长的原因。
And I think from a user acquisition/marketing perspective, in a world five or seven years ago, if you were making something novel and you went to users and it was like, "Oh, we got something better." People are going to be like, "Well, whatever.
我认为，从用户获取/营销的角度来看，在五七年前的世界中，如果你正在制作一些新颖的东西，然后你去找用户，他们会说：“哦，我们得到了更好的东西。”人们会说，“好吧，无论如何。
Everybody says they got something better.
每个人都说他们得到了更好的东西。
I don't care." But today, and this is not probably the way you should do it, but you can go and just say, "We've rethought this thing with AI." And a bunch of people will just be like, "Well, how?" Or "Maybe I should check this out."
我不在乎。”但今天，这可能不是你应该做的事情，但你可以直接说：“我们已经用人工智能重新考虑了这件事。”一群人会说，“嗯，怎么样？”或者“也许我应该检查一下。”
Gaurav Misra: They'll just try it.
Gaurav Misra：他们会尝试一下。
Obviously, you have to deliver on the promises.
显然，你必须兑现承诺。
If you don't deliver, people will come in, they'll play around a bunch and then just leave.
如果你不交付，人们就会进来，他们会在一群人周围玩耍，然后就离开。
But if you can truly deliver on the promises, there's great opportunities to require users at scale.
但如果您能够真正兑现承诺，那么就有很大的机会需要大规模的用户。
So I think that's slightly different.
所以我认为这略有不同。
And I don't know how long that lasts, but it is definitely a different time from that perspective.
我不知道这种情况会持续多久，但从这个角度来看，这绝对是一个不同的时期。
I do think also at the core of building products is solving problems.
我确实认为构建产品的核心也是解决问题。
I think a lot of people sort of get caught up in this, well, it's cool and people will come for the cool right now.
我认为很多人都陷入了这种困境，嗯，这很酷，人们现在就会来寻求凉爽。
People will come in and be like, "Well, let me check it out.
人们进来后会说：“好吧，让我检查一下。
It's cool."
很酷。”
Gaurav Misra: But at the end of the day, if you're just building a playground and people play around in the playground and then they leave after playing around, it's not a business.
Gaurav Misra：但归根结底，如果你只是建造一个游乐场，人们在游乐场玩耍，然后他们玩完后就离开，那么这不是一门生意。
So I think that is still key.
所以我认为这仍然是关键。
You have to be solving real problems.
你必须解决实际问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: As we were talking, I'm thinking about every day there's something that would maybe a few years ago be news for a year.
Lenny Rachitsky：当我们谈话时，我每天都在想一些几年前可能会成为一年新闻的事情。
Holy shit, this is now possible.
天哪，这现在成为可能。
Now it's like every day something like that happens and then we're like, all right, so what I think about is like, we'll have AGI one of these days or super intelligence and everyone's going to be, "Oh, amazing." And then, "Okay, what's for dinner?"
现在就像每天都会发生这样的事情，然后我们就像，好吧，所以我的想法是，有一天我们会拥有通用人工智能或超级智能，每个人都会说，“哦，太棒了。”然后，“好吧，晚餐吃什么？”
Gaurav Misra: Isn't that already happening?
Gaurav Misra：这不是已经发生了吗？
Think about, in a way, I self-reflect on this sometimes if like, you've seen Iron Man and stuff, they have the J.A.R.V.I.S thing and you've seen Interstellar and they have the TARS machine.
想一想，在某种程度上，我有时会自我反思，如果你看过钢铁侠之类的东西，他们有贾维斯的东西，你看过星际穿越，他们有 TARS 机器。
They're talking back and forth with these things like bouncing ideas.
他们反复讨论这些事情，比如跳跃的想法。
That is science fiction.
那是科幻小说。
That's literally science fiction.
这简直就是科幻小说。
Okay, it's not perfect, but it exists in a way that nobody could have imagined.
好吧，它并不完美，但它以一种没人能想象的方式存在。
That's science fiction has become reality and I feel like nobody cares.
那是科幻小说已经成为现实，我觉得没有人关心。
Gaurav Misra: In a way, you would've expected the world to be turned upside down, but it feels like almost in a way so slow and people are like, yes, adoption is happening, but I feel like it's almost a shocking development in a way.
Gaurav Misra：在某种程度上，你会期望世界会发生翻天覆地的变化，但感觉几乎在某种程度上是如此缓慢，人们会说，是的，采用正在发生，但我觉得这在某种程度上几乎是一个令人震惊的发展。
Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like you guys have done a good job staying top of mind and continuing to get people excited because to your point, there's so much happening.
Lenny Rachitsky：感觉你们在保持领先地位方面做得很好，并继续让人们感到兴奋，因为就您而言，发生了很多事情。
How do you get people to continue to be like, "Oh, okay, wow, what their building is actually is interesting and continues to be interesting."
你如何让人们继续这样说：“哦，好吧，哇，他们的建筑实际上很有趣，而且会继续很有趣。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Anything you've learned about just what it takes to stay top of mind and continue to pull people back and get people re-excited over and over?
Lenny Rachitsky：关于如何保持领先地位并继续吸引人们并让人们一遍又一遍地重新兴奋，你是否学到了什么？
Gaurav Misra: Hundred percent.
高拉夫·米斯拉：百分之百。
I mean, I think honestly it just comes down to not just AI for the sake of AI or AI for the sake of excitement or hype or novelty or whatever that is, it's actually effective AI like AI that solves real problems, practical problems.
我的意思是，老实说，我认为这不仅仅是为了人工智能而人工智能，或者为了兴奋、炒作、新奇或其他什么而人工智能，它实际上是有效的人工智能，比如解决实际问题、实际问题的人工智能。
And the fundamentals haven't changed.
而且基本面没有改变。
In a way, there's three steps to building products.
在某种程度上，构建产品分为三个步骤。
You identify a user problem, you apply some technology to solve that problem, but then finally you have some mechanism to find people who have that problem.
你发现了一个用户问题，你应用了一些技术来解决这个问题，但最终你有了一些机制来找到有这个问题的人。
If you can do all three of those things, then in any environment you can create great products.
如果你能做到这三件事，那么在任何环境下你都可以创造出伟大的产品。
But I think right now what's different is so much is changing on the technology side that you can create products that could not have been created before and solve problems that could not have been solved before.
但我认为现在不同的是技术方面发生了很大的变化，你可以创造以前无法创造的产品，解决以前无法解决的问题。
And that's creating the opportunity.
这就是创造机会。
Gaurav Misra: And for us, especially in the video space, it's truly endless.
Gaurav Misra：对我们来说，尤其是在视频领域，它确实是无穷无尽的。
We've just begun, our goal specifically for video is not to build professional tools.
我们才刚刚开始，我们专门针对视频的目标不是构建专业工具。
We're not building for professionals at all.
我们根本不是为专业人士打造的。
We're building for the person who could not have created video before.
我们正在为以前无法创建视频的人构建。
They didn't have the tools, the skills, the means to be able to create video and now they can because they're able to jump over that skill gap or that time gap.
他们没有工具、技能和手段来制作视频，但现在他们可以了，因为他们能够跨越技能差距或时间差距。
Maybe they're business owners, they don't have time, they want results, and honestly a lot to solve there just tons.
也许他们是企业主，他们没有时间，他们想要结果，老实说，有很多事情需要解决。
Lenny Rachitsky: Solve people's problems.
Lenny Rachitsky：解决人们的问题。
Easier said than done, but it's a good reminder.
说起来容易做起来难，但这是一个很好的提醒。
In the end that's all that matters.
最后，这才是最重要的。
Something that I always think about with people in your shoes is just how do you not get overwhelmed and how do you know what to pay attention to?
站在你的立场上，我总是在思考如何才能不被淹没以及你如何知道要注意什么？
How do you stay focused?
你如何保持专注？
Lenny Rachitsky: Any tips there for folks that are just reading every day, a new announcement, and then just like I just, how do I?
Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些每天都在阅读新公告，然后就像我一样的人，有什么建议吗？
What do I do?
我该怎么办？
There's too much.
太多了。
Gaurav Misra: It is the new problem of product development in a way.
Gaurav Misra：在某种程度上这是产品开发的新问题。
There's too many possible paths you can go down.
有太多可能的路径可供选择。
There's too many ideas, there's too many things you could do.
有太多的想法，有太多的事情你可以做。
And I mean obviously, prioritization is always an important skill set and has always been, but it's become an even more important skill set right now because you have to figure out what not to pay attention to.
我的意思是，显然，优先级始终是一项重要的技能，而且一直都是，但现在它已经成为一项更加重要的技能，因为你必须弄清楚什么是不应该注意的。
Our general framework for it is to look for user demand, and actually the easiest way to check for user demand is to just see what has virality.
我们的总体框架是寻找用户需求，实际上检查用户需求的最简单方法就是看看什么具有病毒性。
Gaurav Misra: Usually, what has virality and what people want to share and talk about, there's something at the core of it that actually is interesting.
Gaurav Misra：通常，具有病毒性的内容以及人们想要分享和谈论的内容，其核心实际上是有趣的。
Now, it may not always be interesting in a way that's like maybe it's a one-time use case.
现在，它可能并不总是很有趣，就像它是一次性用例一样。
Maybe it's not something that people would do repeatedly.
也许这不是人们会重复做的事情。
Maybe it's not something you could build like a subscription business off of, but oftentimes there's some things, some core element of it that has resonated with people.
也许它不是你可以像订阅业务那样建立起来的东西，但通常有一些东西，它的一些核心元素会引起人们的共鸣。
And if you can identify that core and then mold it into fitting into your business, it's actually a great way to identify what actually works.
如果您能够识别该核心，然后将其融入您的业务，那么这实际上是识别真正有效的方法的好方法。
And we have these tools right now.
我们现在就有这些工具。
We don't have to build anything.
我们不必建造任何东西。
You can just kind talk about it and people will share it, share the idea.
你可以友善地谈论它，人们就会分享它，分享这个想法。
Gaurav Misra: And you can measure how well the product might be received even before you built anything.
Gaurav Misra：甚至在构建任何产品之前，您就可以衡量产品的受欢迎程度。
So it's a great tool we use for prioritization.
所以这是我们用来确定优先级的一个很好的工具。
We spend a lot of time on social media.
我们在社交媒体上花费了大量时间。
Obviously, our app is often used for social media, so a lot of our employees will spend a lot of time on social media.
显然，我们的应用程序经常用于社交媒体，因此我们很多员工会在社交媒体上花费大量时间。
We look at what the trends are, what's happening, and based on that we can get a pretty good read of what might resonate well with people.
我们关注趋势是什么、正在发生什么，并在此基础上我们可以很好地了解哪些内容可能会引起人们的共鸣。
Lenny Rachitsky: So as a leader of a company with people constantly hearing about all the things happening, is there any tools or processes or approaches you've figured out to help people continue, stay focused, not get excited about every shiny new object and actually ship things?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么，作为一家公司的领导者，人们经常听到正在发生的所有事情，您是否找到了任何工具、流程或方法来帮助人们继续、保持专注，而不是对每一个闪亮的新产品感到兴奋并实际交付产品？
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Gaurav Misra: I mean honestly, it's all about incrementality in a way.
Gaurav Misra：老实说，我的意思是，在某种程度上，这都是关于增量的。
I think we do aim to ship every week.
我认为我们的目标是每周发货。
Our engineering goal is every engineer should ship a marketable product every week.
我们的工程目标是每个工程师每周都应该推出一款适销对路的产品。
And so what's a marketable product is a product that you can show to users and the user might subscribe or pay for the app just for that or come to the app essentially just for that.
因此，什么是适销对路的产品，就是您可以向用户展示的产品，并且用户可能会为此订阅或支付应用程序费用，或者本质上只是为此而使用该应用程序。
And that's why table stakes features, let's say we're talking about word processor or something.
这就是为什么赌注具有特征，假设我们正在谈论文字处理器或其他东西。
If you had auto format or just table stakes stuff like justify alignment or something, no one's going to come to your word processor for justify alignment.
如果您有自动格式或只是诸如对齐对齐之类的桌面赌注之类的东西，那么没有人会来您的文字处理程序来对齐对齐。
You can market that because it's obvious, of course it exists, but if you did something unique that nobody else has done, you can go and show that to people and people will come to your app just for that.
你可以推销它，因为它是显而易见的，当然它存在，但如果你做了一些其他人没有做过的独特的事情，你可以向人们展示这一点，人们会为此而使用你的应用程序。
Gaurav Misra: And even if your app doesn't have a lot of the obvious stuff, maybe it doesn't have justify alignment, people will jump over that just to use these new tools and new abilities that you might be building and marketing.
Gaurav Misra：即使你的应用程序没有很多明显的东西，也许它没有合理的一致性，人们也会跳过它，只是为了使用你可能正在构建和营销的这些新工具和新功能。
So we try to do every engineer one marketable feature per week, and a lot of that stuff may not work, but a lot of it does work and we can figure out obviously, where to put in more effort, things that start to work, we double down on those things, build more.
因此，我们尝试每周为每位工程师提供一项适销对路的功能，其中很多东西可能行不通，但很多东西确实有效，我们可以明显地弄清楚，在哪里投入更多精力，开始发挥作用的事情，我们在这些事情上加倍努力，构建更多。
People often complain because think about it, in one week where we're shipping, it's not complete, it's MVP, truly.
人们经常抱怨，因为想一想，在我们交付的一周内，它并不完整，它确实是 MVP。
Gaurav Misra: And we slice the hell out of it.
Gaurav Misra：我们将其彻底解决。
We take the design and we cut, cut, cut until we can really say that it's going to be useless if we cut anymore.
我们接受设计，然后剪、剪、剪，直到我们真的可以说，如果我们再剪的话，它就毫无用处了。
We get that out and people come in.
我们把它拿出来，然后人们进来。
And if things are going well, people will use it despite all the problems that it might have, and now people will complain and we'll have a list of problems and we know what to do next.
如果事情进展顺利，人们会使用它，尽管它可能存在所有问题，现在人们会抱怨，我们将列出问题清单，我们知道下一步该做什么。
That's a starting point essentially.
这本质上是一个起点。
As long as we're shipping one a week, we get a ton of volume of features and products and directions we're releasing, cut a lot of that.
只要我们每周发布一个，我们就会获得大量的功能、产品和我们正在发布的方向，其中包括很多。
What remains expand from there.
剩下的东西从那里扩展。
So it works really well, and it keeps people focused.
所以它的效果非常好，并且可以让人们集中注意力。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love the simplicity of that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这种简单性。
I love just how wild that sounds for a lot of companies I imagine.
我喜欢这对我想象的许多公司来说听起来多么疯狂。
Every engineer ships a marketable feature or product every week.
每个工程师每周都会推出一款适销对路的功能或产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's some people listening to this and are just completely stressed out by this idea and there's some people listening who are like, this is exactly how I want to work.
Lenny Rachitsky：有些人听了这个想法，完全被这个想法压垮了，有些人听后说，这正是我想要的工作方式。
This is how every company should build.
这就是每个公司都应该建立的方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: How do you maintain quality and make it all cohesive?
Lenny Rachitsky：如何保持质量并使其具有凝聚力？
I imagine that's the big trade-off.
我想这是一个很大的权衡。
Just, any tricks there for folks that want to maybe start operating this way.
只是，对于那些想要开始以这种方式进行操作的人来说，有什么技巧吗？
Gaurav Misra: Quality is not something you compromise on most of the time.
Gaurav Misra：大多数时候，质量并不是你必须妥协的事情。
I think yes, there's strategic compromises in quality, but most of the time what you want to do is have a bar for quality where people should come in and if they're using the feature, it should work, right?
我认为是的，在质量方面存在战略性妥协，但大多数时候你想做的是建立一个质量标准，人们应该进来，如果他们使用该功能，它应该有效，对吗？
Of course.
当然。
And the way to cut down on time, and I think this is a mistake people make a lot of the time, is when time is being pressured downward, a lot of times engineers, PMS, designers, they will cut on quality rather than cutting on scope.
削减时间的方法，我认为这是人们经常犯的一个错误，就是当时间受到压力时，很多时候工程师、PMS、设计师会削减质量而不是削减范围。
And actually you can cut on scope.
实际上你可以缩小范围。
It's actually, the method that we use is we look at every element that's going to take any time to build and we just say, what if we remove this?
实际上，我们使用的方法是查看需要任何时间构建的每个元素，然后我们只是说，如果我们删除它怎么办？
Is the product still useful?
产品还有用吗？
Gaurav Misra: And we keep repeating that until we remove whatever's left and we say it's going to be useless at this point.
Gaurav Misra：我们不断重复这一点，直到我们删除剩下的一切，我们说它在这一点上将毫无用处。
And that becomes the one-week project, right?
这就是一个为期一周的项目，对吗？
It actually really works.
它实际上确实有效。
It narrows down to the core of what you're really trying to ask.
它缩小了你真正想问的核心内容。
So for example, let's say we wanted to build something to add an image on your video or something like that, and this is a really basic idea.
举例来说，假设我们想要构建一些东西来在您的视频上添加图像或类似的东西，这是一个非常基本的想法。
I just made it up right now.
我现在才补上。
And you might imagine a design in which you import your image from your camera roll, but before it lands in your video you might want to remove the background.
您可能会想象一种设计，从相机胶卷中导入图像，但在图像进入视频之前您可能需要删除背景。
You might want to change the hue and saturation or something like that.
您可能想要更改色调和饱和度或类似的内容。
And you might expect a designer to design all of those features and you let it design, but you really quickly realize that you can cut all of that stuff.
你可能期望设计师设计所有这些功能，然后你让它设计，但你很快就会意识到你可以削减所有这些东西。
Gaurav Misra: You can cut the background or you can cut the hue saturation.
Gaurav Misra：您可以剪切背景，也可以剪切色调饱和度。
All you really need is pick.
您真正需要的只是选择。
And then there might be a picker.
然后可能会有一个选择器。
We need a picker with a library, with a lot of different type.
我们需要一个带有库的选择器，有很多不同的类型。
What if you want to pull from the cloud?
如果你想从云端拉取数据怎么办？
What if you want to pull from the drive or something like that?
如果你想从驱动器或类似的东西中拉出怎么办？
Cut all of that, right?
把这些都剪掉吧？
And essentially come down to the core, which is just native picker from the camera, lens, straight in the video, no UI.
本质上归结为核心，它只是来自相机、镜头的原生选择器，直接在视频中，没有 UI。
And that is already, that should be useful.
这已经是有用的了。
If that's not useful, then anything else built on top of that is also useless.
如果这没有用，那么在此基础上构建的任何其他东西也毫无用处。
So that's how we might go about it.
这就是我们可能采取的方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: That last sentence is so key to this.
Lenny Rachitsky：最后一句话对此非常关键。
It's the core idea of ship small iterative features before you invest a lot in something to figure out is there anything there, is this worth spending weeks on?
这是在你投入大量资金之前发布小型迭代功能的核心思想，以弄清楚是否有什么东西，这值得花费数周时间吗？
Gaurav Misra: Totally.
高拉夫·米斯拉：完全可以。
And I think the coolest part of this method is the first thing that the users will come in, they'll use the thing, they'll import images and the first thing they'll complain about is what bothers them the most?
我认为这种方法最酷的部分是用户进来的第一件事，他们会使用这个东西，他们会导入图像，他们会抱怨的第一件事是什么最困扰他们？
Is it human saturation?
是人体饱和度吗？
Is it background removal?
是去除背景吗？
Is it picking from the cloud?
是从云端挑选的吗？
You'll just get the most complaints about that thing.
你只会收到最多的关于那件事的抱怨。
Gaurav Misra: People will be like, and people will be honest about it or they'll be like, "This sucks.
Gaurav Misra：人们会说，人们会诚实地对待这件事，或者他们会说，“这很糟糕。
It doesn't even have background removal.
它甚至没有背景去除功能。
What kind of image thing is this?" And you have to take that feedback and just next week you can ship in a single week all the things that the user's complaining about.
这是什么形象啊？”您必须接受这些反馈，并且就在下周，您可以在一周内交付用户抱怨的所有内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: And then they're like, wow, this team is shipping like crazy.
Lenny Rachitsky：然后他们就会说，哇，这个团队的出货量太疯狂了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Solve all my problems.
Lenny Rachitsky：解决我所有的问题。
So responsive.
反应灵敏。
This connects a common sign of product market fit, which is when people are complaining about the thing that means they actually care enough to complain and that's a really good sign if they're complaining about something.
这与产品市场契合度的一个常见标志有关，即当人们抱怨某件事时，这意味着他们实际上足够关心抱怨，如果他们抱怨某件事，那是一个非常好的迹象。
Gaurav Misra: It's very true, very true.
Gaurav Misra：这是非常真实的。
If nobody complains, it's almost red flag.
如果没有人抱怨，那几乎就是危险信号。
Lenny Rachitsky: A lot of this is turning into an archeology of a modern product team and startup.
Lenny Rachitsky：其中很多正在变成现代产品团队和初创公司的考古学。
So I want to keep digging.
所以我想继续挖掘。
This is not where I was planning to go, but this is awesome.
这不是我计划去的地方，但这太棒了。
I love that this approach of every engineer shipping something every week that's marketable connects directly to where I started this conversation, which is how do you stay above the noise?
我喜欢每个工程师每周交付一些适销对路的东西的这种方法，这与我开始这次对话的地方直接相关，这就是你如何保持在噪音之外？
Lenny Rachitsky: And part of the answer is just ship stuff constantly, and just continue to impress people.
Lenny Rachitsky：部分答案就是不断地发布东西，并继续给人们留下深刻的印象。
Like, "Here's a new amazing video feature." "Look at this thing."
就像，“这是一个令人惊叹的新视频功能。” “看看这个东西。”
Gaurav Misra: Exactly.
高拉夫·米斯拉：没错。
Yep.
是的。
I think it's definitely key, right?
我认为这绝对是关键，对吧？
And there's enough area and enough scope for that to happen.
并且有足够的区域和范围来实现这一点。
I think truly in normal times it may not be possible to create that much roadmap that quickly, but I think because there's so much innovation underlying all this, there is that scope available.
我确实认为，在正常情况下，可能不可能那么快地创建那么多路线图，但我认为，因为这一切背后有如此多的创新，所以有可用的范围。
The roadmap almost seems unlimited, just truly.
路线图似乎几乎是无限的，确实如此。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
The other question I imagine people would be wondering is how do you work on longer-term projects that take many weeks?
我想人们会想知道的另一个问题是，你如何处理需要数周时间的长期项目？
There's also infrastructure, I guess, back-end stuff.
我猜还有基础设施、后端的东西。
So maybe answer those questions.
所以也许可以回答这些问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: How do you think about long-term stuff and then how do you deal with back-end stuff that isn't a feature that anyone would care for?
Lenny Rachitsky：你如何看待长期的事情，然后你如何处理那些不是任何人都会关心的功能的后端事情？
Gaurav Misra: Yep.
高拉夫·米斯拉：是的。
Usually, we'll dedicate time to that separately.
通常，我们会单独花时间来解决这个问题。
For example, usually Q4 for us is infrastructure quarter.
例如，通常我们的第四季度是基础设施季度。
We just go and build all the infrastructure.
我们只是去建造所有的基础设施。
Q4 is generally, we've already delivered a ton of products and stuff.
一般来说，第四季度我们已经交付了大量的产品和东西。
We're feeling pretty good about the rest of the year.
我们对今年剩下的时间感觉很好。
Things are winding down.
事情正在逐渐平息。
Obviously, holidays and stuff coming up.
显然，假期和其他事情即将到来。
And so we spend all that time paying the technical debt.
所以我们花了所有的时间来偿还技术债务。
Gaurav Misra: I actually think there's a unique thing to think here about technical debt in general.
Gaurav Misra：实际上，我认为对于一般技术债务，这里有一个独特的想法。
And as a startup, your job is to take on technical debt because that is how you operate faster than a bigger company.
作为一家初创公司，你的工作就是承担技术债务，因为这就是你比大公司运营得更快的方式。
Bigger companies don't take on technical debt, they pay it usually right away.
大公司不会承担技术债务，他们通常会立即偿还。
Or they're paying back technical debt from the days when they were a startup, and they took on a lot of it.
或者他们正在偿还初创公司时期的技术债务，并且承担了很多债务。
I mean Snaps, I used to work at Snap and there was a lot of examples of that over there, and I'm sure it happens at every other company.
我指的是 Snaps，我曾经在 Snap 工作过，那里有很多这样的例子，我确信其他公司也会发生这种情况。
Gaurav Misra: And we think about it as like, well, is this a problem we need to solve today or is this a problem that the 50th engineer or the hundredth engineer or the 500th engineer can solve?
Gaurav Misra：我们的想法是，这是我们今天需要解决的问题，还是第 50 个工程师、第 100 个工程师或第 500 个工程师可以解决的问题？
And if it is a problem that a future engineer can solve, we should use that future engineer now.
如果这是一个未来工程师可以解决的问题，我们现在就应该使用那个未来工程师。
Essentially, that's what we're doing.
本质上，这就是我们正在做的事情。
And we're saying we're going to push this to somebody in the future.
我们说我们将来会把这个推给某人。
And by the way, if the company fails, that engineer will never be hired and all this won't matter anyways.
顺便说一句，如果公司失败了，那个工程师将永远不会被雇用，而这一切都无关紧要。
So it's like financial debt in many ways.
因此，它在很多方面都类似于金融债务。
Financial debt is taken on to create leverage.
承担金融债务是为了创造杠杆。
It can be a good thing like if you're buying a house, you take on debt and you can buy something probably more than you can afford without taking on debt.
这可能是一件好事，比如如果你买房子，你承担了债务，那么你可以在不承担债务的情况下购买可能超出你负担能力的东西。
Gaurav Misra: And it's the same thing.
Gaurav Misra：这是同一件事。
You can create products that you wouldn't be able to build with a small team that you have by taking on strategic technical debt.
您可以通过承担战略技术债务来创建您的小团队无法构建的产品。
It's very positive actually.
实际上这是非常积极的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, this is such a cool idea.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这真是一个很酷的主意。
And where my mind goes is that future engineer may be an AI agent engineer.
我的想法是，未来的工程师可能是人工智能代理工程师。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just solving problems, just on technical debt in you.
Lenny Rachitsky：只是解决问题，只是欠你的技术债。
Gaurav Misra: Exactly.
高拉夫·米斯拉：没错。
Some engineer in the future Five-hundred engineer many years from now will get a promotion because they solve this big problem that those really bad early engineers created.
未来的一些工程师 500 年后的工程师将获得晋升，因为他们解决了那些非常糟糕的早期工程师造成的大问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: So obviously, there's a line to this.
Lenny Rachitsky：很明显，这是有界限的。
There's only so much debt you can take on before you become a big problem.
在你成为一个大问题之前，你能承担的债务是有限的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there any thoughts on just that balance of just how much is too much and how if it's enough for a net feature engineer or just-
Lenny Rachitsky：对于多少算太多以及对于网络功能工程师来说是否足够的平衡有什么想法吗？
Gaurav Misra: Yeah, I mean I think generally the rule of thumb is every piece of debt that you take on you have to pay interest on.
Gaurav Misra：是的，我的意思是，我认为一般来说，经验法则是你承担的每一笔债务都必须支付利息。
So if there is debt that you've taken on, there's 1% or 2% of your time that is going to be taken away every day in maintaining bugs and issues and restarts and crashes and things that are happening with that.
因此，如果您承担了债务，那么您每天将花费 1% 或 2% 的时间来维护错误和问题、重新启动、崩溃以及随之而来的事情。
Because you did it the fast way, something's going to go wrong with it.
因为你做得很快，所以就会出现问题。
Every day.
每天。
1% of your time will be taken away.
你1%的时间将被夺走。
If you take on enough debt, you'll be paying 80 or 90% interest and you'll not have any time to do anything new.
如果你承担了足够的债务，你将支付 80% 或 90% 的利息，而且你将没有时间做任何新的事情。
You'll just be paying interest.
您只需支付利息即可。
That's all.
就这样。
Gaurav Misra: And that's when you get into the mode of like, oh, we're just keeping the lights on.
Gaurav Misra：那就是当你进入这样的模式时，哦，我们只是保持灯亮着。
We don't have any engineers to do anything.
我们没有任何工程师可以做任何事情。
We're just keeping the lights on.
我们只是保持灯亮着。
That's the failure case for a startup.
这就是创业公司的失败案例。
So in a way, you have a technical debt runway.
所以在某种程度上，你有一条技术债务跑道。
Once you run out, once you've taken on too much debt.
一旦你用完了，一旦你承担了太多的债务。
And if you haven't delivered value in that time, enough value to hire the engineers to pay the interest or just pay off the debt, you'll get in trouble.
如果你在那段时间没有交付价值，没有足够的价值来雇用工程师来支付利息或只是还清债务，你就会遇到麻烦。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
That's such a nice heuristic of how to think about when to invest in something.
这是关于如何考虑何时投资某物的一个很好的启发。
I don't want to go down this too far, but just a thought I have is ...
我不想走得太远，但我的一个想法是......
because sometimes there's big technical decisions you got to make that impact the way everything builds or is built in the future.
因为有时你必须做出重大的技术决策来影响一切的构建方式或未来的构建方式。
I imagine those you spend more time on and take really seriously.
我想那些你会花更多时间并认真对待的人。
Gaurav Misra: Definitely.
高拉夫·米斯拉：当然。
Yeah, I mean I think as long as it's possible for wherever it's like a two-way door, you can do whatever you want.
是的，我的意思是，我认为只要有可能，就像双向门一样，你就可以做任何你想做的事。
I mean this is a classic methodology.
我的意思是这是一种经典的方法论。
If it's A one-way door, it's worth thinking about and sort of doing correctly at least as much as the one-way door would matter to you in the future.
如果它是一扇单向门，那么就值得思考并正确执行，至少与单向门将来对您的重要性一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: How much do your engineers use Cursor and tools like that to build?
Lenny Rachitsky：你们的工程师有多少使用 Cursor 和类似的工具来构建？
How much is AI helping your team move?
人工智能对您的团队移动有多大帮助？
Gaurav Misra: A hundred percent, yeah.
Gaurav Misra：百分之一百，是的。
I mean everybody's using it.
我的意思是每个人都在使用它。
It's super helpful.
这非常有帮助。
I mean even I'm using it honestly.
我的意思是即使我诚实地使用它。
Yeah, it's a huge multiplier for the team, no doubt.
是的，毫无疑问，这对团队来说是一个巨大的倍增。
Lenny Rachitsky: And is a Cursor specifically.
Lenny Rachitsky：特别是一个游标。
Is there anything else that you guys found useful?
你们还有什么觉得有用的吗？
Gaurav Misra: Yeah, we are using Cursor.
Gaurav Misra：是的，我们正在使用光标。
Yep.
是的。
We've tried all the different tools.
我们尝试了所有不同的工具。
We were using Devin as well, which is another, you know?
我们也使用了 Devin，这是另一个，你知道吗？
That's more advanced, I guess.
我想这更先进。
It's solving bugs for you.
它正在为您解决错误。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, Devin's basically, I think it's 500 bucks a month and it's like an AI engineer that you just chat within Slack.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，Devin 基本上是，我认为每月 500 美元，就像一个 AI 工程师，你只需在 Slack 中聊天。
Gaurav Misra: Exactly, yeah.
高拉夫·米斯拉：没错，是的。
In a way, these are the types of things that us as a startup can do that bigger companies can't just, you know, they can't just pull in Devin.
在某种程度上，这些是我们作为一家初创公司可以做的事情，而大公司不能只是，你知道，他们不能只是吸引德文。
They have to get 30 lawyers in the room first before that happens.
在此之前他们必须先让 30 名律师到场。
Lenny Rachitsky: And they're all called Devin, these are like agents.
Lenny Rachitsky：他们都叫 Devin，他们就像特工。
Everyone's going to have hundreds of Devins working at their company.
每个人都会有数百名德文人在他们的公司工作。
Gaurav Misra: Exactly.
高拉夫·米斯拉：没错。
You can have multiple Devins.
你可以有多个德文。
I actually heard you can have a manager of Devins who's managing Devins.
我实际上听说你可以有一个德文斯的经理来管理德文斯。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that managers are all getting layered, like unlayered and then they're going to have AI managers.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢经理们都变得分层，就像没有分层一样，然后他们将拥有人工智能经理。
That's the ultimate bait and switch.
这是最终的诱饵和开关。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Is there anything else that in how you operate and build the way you build product or set up the way you build product that you think is really unique and interesting that other people might be able to learn from?
在你如何操作和构建你构建产品的方式或设置你构建产品的方式中，还有什么你认为是真正独特和有趣的，其他人可以学习的吗？
Gaurav Misra: Our process is a bit interesting in that way.
Gaurav Misra：我们的流程在这方面有点有趣。
We have a design team, we have a PM team.
我们有一个设计团队，我们有一个PM团队。
We're very early on those teams right now.
我们现在在这些团队中还处于早期阶段。
And obviously, we have engineering.
显然，我们有工程。
And we have all the different surface areas.
我们有所有不同的表面积。
So iOS, Android, web.
iOS、Android、网络。
There's backend team, machine learning team, research team.
有后端团队、机器学习团队、研究团队。
So generally, when we're developing products, we may start off with a PM first approach where we're finding some sort of overall issue that we want to take on some new area or pillar we want to take on and then creating sort of product specs from there.
因此，一般来说，当我们开发产品时，我们可能会从 PM First 方法开始，我们会发现某种总体问题，我们想要解决一些新领域或支柱问题，然后从那里创建某种产品规格。
Gaurav Misra: But a lot of times we'll also start the opposite way.
Gaurav Misra：但很多时候我们也会以相反的方式开始。
We'll first design something without even having any idea of what or why we're doing it, but we'll design a bunch of different things and then we'll sit down with the PMs and look at the designs and just go over one and the next and the next until we find interesting things and ideas that pop out of that.
我们首先会设计一些东西，甚至不知道我们要做什么或为什么这样做，但我们会设计一堆不同的东西，然后我们会与产品经理坐下来查看设计，然后一遍又一遍地检查，直到我们发现从中弹出的有趣的东西和想法。
Gaurav Misra: And a lot of times that leads to us discovering things that we wouldn't have discovered if we were just too focused on the metrics and the numbers and things like that.
Gaurav Misra：很多时候，这会让我们发现一些如果我们过于关注指标和数字之类的东西就不会发现的东西。
So it's almost reversing the process a little bit and starting with design first, but it can often result in finding unique ideas basically.
因此，这几乎是稍微颠倒了这个过程，首先从设计开始，但它通常可以基本上找到独特的想法。
I also think that we have a unique setup in how we create our roadmap.
我还认为我们在创建路线图方面有独特的设置。
So normally you have a single roadmap and we actually divide a roadmap into two different roadmaps.
因此，通常您有一个路线图，而我们实际上将路线图分为两个不同的路线图。
So we have what we think of as the public roadmap.
所以我们有我们所认为的公共路线图。
This is basically what people have asked us for.
这基本上就是人们对我们的要求。
So there's all these surface areas where we receive user feedback and we look at all that feedback and people will ask for features.
因此，我们在所有这些表面领域都会收到用户反馈，我们会查看所有这些反馈，人们会要求提供功能。
They'll ask for, I want background removal, I want to undo and redo, I want to upload longer videos, whatever it is, a bunch of different features.
他们会要求，我想要背景删除，我想要撤消和重做，我想要上传更长的视频，无论是什么，一堆不同的功能。
Gaurav Misra: And we'll just make a list of that.
Gaurav Misra：我们将列出一个清单。
And just like anything else, we'll prioritize it and we'll look at how many people it affects and what the possible markets are and just get it done basically one at a time.
就像其他事情一样，我们会优先考虑它，我们会看看它影响了多少人以及可能的市场是什么，然后基本上一次完成一个。
Gaurav Misra: But these are all features that every competitor knows about.
Gaurav Misra：但这些都是每个竞争对手都知道的功能。
These are public.
这些都是公开的。
If a user's asking us for it, they're asking everybody for it.
如果用户向我们索要，他们就是在向所有人索要。
And every team has essentially more or less the same list and everybody's prioritizing it.
每个团队基本上都有或多或少相同的列表，并且每个人都对其进行优先级排序。
And yeah, sure you can win a little by extra nicely prioritizing it or winning a little in prioritization or execution or something, but it's not going to be a game changer in terms of winning against your competition.
是的，当然，你可以通过额外更好地确定优先级或在优先级或执行或其他方面赢得一点胜利，但这不会改变游戏规则，从而赢得你的竞争对手。
So we have a second roadmap which we think of as a secret roadmap.
所以我们有第二个路线图，我们认为这是一个秘密路线图。
So this is a roadmap that nobody asked for anything on this like literally, nobody has ever asked for it.
所以这是一个没有人要求任何东西的路线图，就像字面意义上的，没有人要求过它。
Gaurav Misra: And if a user were shown something on it, they might be like, "I don't need this.
Gaurav Misra：如果用户看到上面的东西，他们可能会说，“我不需要这个。
I don't know what this is." But given our unique vantage point, our unique understanding of the problem set, the user space and the technology, we've come up with some special ideas that we think will completely revolutionize how something is used where we can truly change the behavior of the user.
我不知道这是什么。”但鉴于我们独特的优势，我们对问题集、用户空间和技术的独特理解，我们提出了一些特殊的想法，我们认为这些想法将彻底改变某些东西的使用方式，从而真正改变用户的行为。
I think that's what at is at the core of.
我认为这就是 at 的核心。
It's like people are doing things one way if we're able to show them another way.
就像人们以一种方式做事一样，如果我们能够向他们展示另一种方式。
And once they try it, they never go back.
一旦他们尝试了，他们就永远不会回头。
That's what a product is, that's success.
这就是产品，这就是成功。
And those are the types of ideas that we put on the secret roadmap.
这些就是我们放在秘密路线图上的想法类型。
These are things we never talk about publicly, never tell anybody about, and we announce them and just give them to users and see the effects.
这些是我们从不公开谈论的事情，从不告诉任何人，我们宣布它们，然后将它们提供给用户并查看效果。
Gaurav Misra: A lot of this we come up with through brainstorming.
Gaurav Misra：其中很多都是我们通过头脑风暴想出来的。
So we do actually do quarterly brainstorming, company-wide, everybody's included like everybody from.
因此，我们确实在全公司范围内进行季度头脑风暴，每个人都包括在内。
It's not just a product team thing, it's like engineering, recruiting, everybody's included in.
这不仅仅是产品团队的事情，就像工程、招聘一样，每个人都参与其中。
And we all come up with marketing, obviously, everybody comes up with ideas, we vote on the ideas, rank the ideas, and then the product team takes over from there and thinks about like feasibility and technology and what the different things could be.
我们都想出了营销，显然，每个人都想出了想法，我们对想法进行投票，对想法进行排名，然后产品团队接手并思考可行性和技术以及可能有什么不同的东西。
So this is a way where we can take all that noise that people are getting, everybody's browsing social media, seeing all these different things that are blowing up, these models and advancements and we can get all that information together and provide a unique internal roadmap where how are we going to approach and create value out of all of these different advances that are happening.
因此，通过这种方式，我们可以吸收人们收到的所有噪音，每个人都在浏览社交媒体，看到所有这些正在爆炸的不同事物，这些模型和进步，我们可以将所有这些信息整合在一起，并提供一个独特的内部路线图，我们将如何处理正在发生的所有这些不同的进步并创造价值。
Gaurav Misra: So that's our general methodology.
Gaurav Misra：这就是我们的一般方法。
And a lot of times the biggest wins will come from the secret roadmap.
很多时候，最大的胜利将来自秘密路线图。
That's the game-changing stuff.
这就是改变游戏规则的东西。
It's not going to be the user requests usually that are going to do that.
通常不会是用户请求来执行此操作。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love just how calling it the secret roadmap makes it extra interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢将其称为秘密路线图，这使它变得更加有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's a secret.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个秘密。
I'm not even going to ask you what's on that secret roadmap.
我什至不会问你那个秘密路线图上有什么。
You can't tell me.
你不能告诉我。
Lenny Rachitsky: What's an example of feature that came out of that secret roadmap that's been a big deal for you guys?
Lenny Rachitsky：从秘密路线图中得出的对你们来说很重要的功能示例是什么？
Gaurav Misra: Tons.
高拉夫·米斯拉：吨。
I mean, I'll give you an example from a long time ago.
我的意思是，我会给你举一个很久以前的例子。
One of the first AI features we added after the app initially took off was this feature called eye contact.
在应用程序最初流行后，我们添加的第一个人工智能功能就是称为眼神交流的功能。
So this was a feature where if you're recording something, oftentimes people who are new to recording a video might read from a script or a teleprompter or something like that and they might have that off-screen.
因此，这是一个功能，如果您正在录制某些内容，通常刚开始录制视频的人可能会阅读脚本或提词器或类似的东西，并且他们可能会将其放在屏幕外。
So it looks like you're reading and it's not great from the perspective of the video itself or the viewer of the video.
因此，看起来您正在阅读，但从视频本身或视频观看者的角度来看，这并不是很好。
So we had this feature where it basically shifts your eyes to look at the camera.
所以我们有这个功能，它基本上可以改变你的眼睛看相机。
Gaurav Misra: And we were actually the first company to build this.
Gaurav Misra：我们实际上是第一家建造这个的公司。
We worked with Nvidia on this.
我们与 Nvidia 就此进行了合作。
It's actually really interesting because when we originally reached out to Nvidia about this.
这实际上非常有趣，因为当我们最初就此事与 Nvidia 联系时。
They were not sure why we needed this.
他们不确定我们为什么需要这个。
And they actually gave it to us pretty openly and were excited about some sort of partnership of how can we get this technology into something that could be useful.
他们实际上非常公开地将其提供给我们，并对我们如何将这项技术转化为有用的某种合作伙伴关系感到兴奋。
Gaurav Misra: But we saw this creator use case which was unique, and it was one of the ideas that came out of the brainstorm and we threw it on there, we launched it.
Gaurav Misra：但是我们看到了这个独特的创作者用例，它是头脑风暴中产生的想法之一，我们把它扔在那里，我们推出了它。
It was a huge success.
这是一个巨大的成功。
I mean, I'll be honest, the video, the ad that we made, a social media post that demonstrates this was so viral, it was made in basically every language around the world.
我的意思是，老实说，我们制作的视频、广告、社交媒体帖子都证明了这一点是如此的病毒式传播，它基本上是用世界各地的每种语言制作的。
It still till today gets millions of views.
直到今天它仍然有数百万的浏览量。
We find reposts and reposts of that thing that other people have created that get millions and millions and millions of views because people are like, "Wow, this is a great idea."
我们发现其他人创建的东西的转发和转发获得了数以百万计的浏览量，因为人们会说，“哇，这是一个好主意。”
Gaurav Misra: And now it's been copied the hell out of, I think it's available basically on every app you can imagine.
Gaurav Misra：现在它已经被复制了，我认为它基本上可以在你能想象到的每个应用程序上使用。
For good reason of course.
当然是有充分理由的。
But that's one of the ideas that came out of it.
但这是由此产生的想法之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: You talked about how you come up with these secret roadmap ideas.
Lenny Rachitsky：您谈到了如何想出这些秘密路线图想法。
I'm just intrigued by this.
我只是对此感兴趣。
I'm going to spend a little more time here.
我要在这里多花一点时间。
Lenny Rachitsky: Does your team ever work with an AI LLM to help brainstorm?
Lenny Rachitsky：您的团队是否曾经与人工智能法学硕士合作来帮助集思广益？
I imagine that's where things will go, where you're actually jamming.
我想这就是事情发展的方向，也是你真正干扰的地方。
The AI agent is brainstorming along with you.
AI 代理正在与您一起集思广益。
Gaurav Misra: Honestly, I would like for it to go there.
Gaurav Misra：老实说，我希望它能去那里。
It hasn't gone there yet.
它还没有去那里。
We haven't done that exactly, because the problem is context.
我们还没有完全做到这一点，因为问题在于上下文。
And I think just the context of understanding the user, the use case, it's so abstract.
我认为理解用户、用例的背景是非常抽象的。
Even right now, I feel like I understand our users obviously, but I can't exactly verbalize why that is or how that is, a little bit abstract.
即使现在，我觉得我显然理解我们的用户，但我无法准确地表达为什么会这样或如何那样，有点抽象。
And I spend a lot of time with RPMs and designers imparting anything that I understand and I've learned over the many years I've been working on this, how do I impart this to them?
我花了很多时间与 RPM 和设计师交流我所理解的以及我多年来从事这方面工作所学到的一切，我如何将这些传授给他们？
But then it's a challenge because I can't even verbalize it myself.
但这是一个挑战，因为我自己甚至无法用语言表达它。
And so it's an extra hard challenge to figure out how do I put this context?
因此，弄清楚如何放置这个上下文是一个额外艰巨的挑战？
How do I make it available to an LLM when I can't even put it into words exactly.
当我什至无法准确地用语言表达时，我该如何向法学硕士提供它？
And honestly, this is probably my own feeling but, and I need to work on this, but there is something to it.
老实说，这可能是我自己的感觉，但是，我需要努力解决这个问题，但它是有道理的。
Gaurav Misra: I do remember at Snap for example, I think one of the most unique things about Snap and the CEO Evan Spiegel was that he had an unmatched understanding of the user.
Gaurav Misra：我确实记得在 Snap 时，我认为 Snap 和首席执行官埃文·斯皮格尔 (Evan Spiegel) 最独特的事情之一就是他对用户有着无与伦比的理解。
I think years and years and years of the company's existence past, almost a decade.
我想公司已经存在了很多年了，差不多十年了。
And nobody understood the user like he did.
没有人像他一样理解用户。
He would come up with ideas that everybody would disagree with and we would launch them and there would be hits, just hits after hits.
他会提出每个人都会不同意的想法，我们会推出它们，并且会产生轰动，只是一个接一个的轰动。
And nobody would understand why.
没有人会明白为什么。
Everyone would line up and be like, "Great." Round of applause for everyone, but no one knew why.
每个人都会排队并说：“太棒了。”大家掌声雷动，但没有人知道为什么。
Gaurav Misra: A great example of that is a lot of this was figured out in retrospect too.
Gaurav Misra：一个很好的例子是，其中很多内容也是在回顾时发现的。
I think there was a point at which Snap declared that they're a camera company and a lot of people laugh at them and said, "Camera.
我认为在某个时候 Snap 宣称他们是一家相机公司，很多人嘲笑他们并说：“相机。
What are we making digital cameras or something?" Or, "Why is it a camera company?"
我们生产数码相机什么的？”或者，“为什么它是一家相机公司？”
Gaurav Misra: But I think at the core of it was this idea that Snapchat opens to the camera and that was actually the differentiator.
Gaurav Misra：但我认为其核心理念是 Snapchat 向相机开放，这实际上是差异化因素。
That actually that small decision was holding the entire company against all competition because when the moment passes where your friend is doing something funny and you need to capture it, you're not going to open Instagram or anything else because it doesn't open to the camera.
事实上，这个小决定让整个公司对抗所有竞争，因为当你的朋友正在做一些有趣的事情而你需要捕捉它的那一刻过去时，你不会打开 Instagram 或其他任何东西，因为它不会向相机打开。
You're going to open Snapchat because you can capture it right away.
您将打开 Snapchat，因为您可以立即捕获它。
And Instagram can never copy that because all their metrics are going to go down as soon as they do that.
Instagram 永远无法复制这一点，因为一旦他们这样做，他们的所有指标都会下降。
So that is a fundamental understanding.
这是一个基本的理解。
And I figured this out much later, actually, but it's such a powerful idea.
事实上，我是在很久以后才发现这一点的，但这是一个非常强大的想法。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm glad you talked about Snap.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴你谈论 Snap。
That's where I definitely wanted to go.
那是我绝对想去的地方。
This is where I was going to start.
这就是我要开始的地方。
So I'm glad we circled back to your experience at Snap.
我很高兴我们回到您在 Snap 的经历。
So the reason I am interested in this is if you think about social networks like Snap is basically the last social network to have launched and stuck around other than TikTok, which I don't think is a social network.
所以我对此感兴趣的原因是，如果你考虑一下像 Snap 这样的社交网络，它基本上是除了 TikTok 之外最后一个推出并坚持下来的社交网络，我认为 TikTok 不是一个社交网络。
I think it's just this content platform.
我认为这就是这个内容平台。
I don't think you're really interacting with people really.
我认为你并没有真正与人互动。
And that was 2011 when it launched.
那是 2011 年它推出的时候。
So it's been like 15 years since the last social network launch that has worked.
自上次推出有效的社交网络以来，已经过去 15 年了。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I think it's interesting also because there's rarely been a lot of insight into just how Snap operates.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这很有趣，因为很少有人深入了解 Snap 的运作方式。
You were there really early.
你来得真早。
You're a big deal at Snap.
你在 Snap 是个大人物。
You built a lot of really important features.
您构建了许多非常重要的功能。
So I wanted to spend a little time here, and it feels like a lot of things you learn from Snap you're bringing to your company now.
所以我想在这里花一点时间，感觉你从 Snap 学到的很多东西现在都带到了你的公司。
So let me just ask, I think you may have answered this, but I'm curious if there's something else here just broadly maybe other than Ev's brain, what do you think was core to Snap being a successful consumer social product?
所以我想问一下，我想你可能已经回答了这个问题，但我很好奇，除了 Ev 的大脑之外，是否还有其他东西，你认为 Snap 成为成功的消费者社交产品的核心是什么？
Gaurav Misra: There were a couple of different things that went well.
Gaurav Misra：有几件事进展顺利。
I do think for a company like Snapchat or Social Network, the core product market fit can be extremely strong.
我确实认为对于像 Snapchat 或社交网络这样的公司来说，核心产品的市场契合度可能非常强。
Essentially, the reason that people are downloading it, the way that it's spreading, the way that it's distributing, the way that it's inviting friends or sending Snaps or whatever it is, that product market fit can be so strong sometimes that it can be hard to actually build something because you actually can't tell if what you're building is what's responsible for growing the thing or if it's actually hurting it and it's growing despite what you're doing basically.
从本质上讲，人们下载它的原因、它传播的方式、它分发的方式、它邀请朋友或发送 Snap 或其他任何东西的方式，产品市场契合度有时可能非常强烈，以至于很难真正构建一些东西，因为你实际上无法判断你正在构建的东西是否是导致该东西增长的原因，或者它是否实际上损害了它，并且尽管你基本上在做什么，但它仍在增长。
Gaurav Misra: And I think because of that, it actually sometimes teaches people the wrong things.
Gaurav Misra：我认为正因为如此，它有时实际上会教给人们错误的东西。
It teaches people that the contrarian thing that they were doing was right when it was actually just wrong and the company just grew despite it.
它告诉人们，他们所做的逆向行为是正确的，而实际上只是错误的，尽管如此，公司仍然在成长。
And I think some of the things that Snap did well and it needed to do really was to continue innovating, right?
我认为 Snap 做得很好并且确实需要做的一些事情就是继续创新，对吗？
Gaurav Misra: Because for a company like Snap, it has a ton of competition.
Gaurav Misra：因为对于像 Snap 这样的公司来说，它面临着大量的竞争。
Social networks are monopolies by nature and there's a lot of reasons for Facebook or any other social network to stop the growth of Snapchat.
社交网络本质上是垄断的，Facebook 或任何其他社交网络有很多理由阻止 Snapchat 的发展。
And they tried, they tried really, really hard.
他们尝试了，他们非常非常努力地尝试。
And the way that Snap was avoiding that was by innovating.
Snap 避免这种情况的方法就是创新。
I think the core of it was the setup that they had, which was very unique.
我认为其核心是他们的设置，这是非常独特的。
I've never seen anything like it.
我从来没有见过这样的事情。
I've worked at a bunch of different companies, but obviously there's a CEO and the CEO was very product-led, his designer himself, but he surrounded himself with the design team.
我曾在很多不同的公司工作过，但显然有一位首席执行官，而这位首席执行官非常以产品为主导，他自己就是设计师，但他周围都是设计团队。
That was sort of the central team in the company.
这是公司的核心团队。
And the design team was like 10, 12 people.
设计团队大概有10、12人。
Basically, pretty small, even at 5, 6,000 employees it was that small still.
基本上来说，规模很小，即使有 5、6,000 名员工，也还是那么小。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，哇。
At 6 or 6,000 employees.
员工人数为 6 或 6,000 人。
The design team was, you said how many, five or six people?
设计团队是，你说有多少人，五六个人？
Lenny Rachitsky: 10, 12.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：10、12。
And to add to that, there's no PMs really for a long time.
更重要的是，已经很长一段时间没有 PM 了。
That was before.
那是以前的事了。
Gaurav Misra: Initially, there were no PMs at all.
Gaurav Misra：最初根本没有总理。
PMs were introduced with monetization.
PM 是通过货币化引入的。
Once monetization was a big sort of element, that's where PMs came in.
一旦货币化成为一个重要因素，产品经理就开始发挥作用了。
Today, I think there's a ton of, or there's an adequate number of PMs across the company, but there was a long period of time, especially when the innovation was happening, when there were a much, much smaller number of PMs and it was very designer led.
今天，我认为整个公司有大量的，或者说有足够数量的 PM，但有很长一段时间，特别是当创新发生时，PM 的数量要少得多，而且是由设计师主导的。
But at the same time, I think that's slightly misleading in the way that these weren't your sort of average designers.
但与此同时，我认为这有点误导，因为他们不是普通设计师。
Gaurav Misra: These were designers who were actually PMs as well.
Gaurav Misra：这些设计师实际上也是产品经理。
That's what the secret sauce was.
这就是秘诀。
They were able to not just design but also do the PM part which is a big responsibility.
他们不仅能够设计，还能够完成 PM 部分，这是一项重大责任。
It's a lot of work, especially for that many employees, but it gave the CEO a way to have granular control over what exactly was being launched in which part of the app at all times.
这是一项繁重的工作，尤其是对于如此多的员工而言，但它为首席执行官提供了一种方法，可以随时精确控制应用程序的哪个部分正在启动的内容。
Gaurav Misra: Because he could meet with a set of 10 or 12 people and know every change that was happening that was user impacting.
Gaurav Misra：因为他可以与 10 或 12 个人会面，并了解正在发生的对用户产生影响的每一项变化。
A lot of changes were being worked on that were infrastructure and types of things that keep going on in the back end where you're improving ranking and whatever that might be, performance and things like that.
我们正在进行很多改变，包括基础设施和后端不断进行的事情类型，您可以在其中提高排名以及任何可能的性能和类似的事情。
And those were not usually his concern.
这些通常不是他关心的。
He was concerned with what UI are we adding where?
他关心的是我们在哪里添加什么 UI？
And if you needed to add UI to the app, you needed it designed.
如果您需要向应用程序添加 UI，则需要对其进行设计。
And if there's no designers in the company, except for a handful who talk directly to the CEO, you create a very granular control over what's being launched in the company.
如果公司里没有设计师，除了少数直接与首席执行官交谈的设计师，你就可以对公司推出的产品进行非常精细的控制。
So everything needed to be approved by Evan.
所以一切都需要得到埃文的批准。
If you hadn't approved it, it's not going out.
如果你没有批准它，它就不会出去。
So the design team actually held a lot of power in that.
所以设计团队实际上在这方面拥有很大的权力。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太棒了。
So what I'm hearing partly is, I don't know if this is true, but it feels true that to make a consumer app that is successful and breaks through, you almost need a singular mind that continues to stay in the weeds on everything.
所以我听到的部分内容是，我不知道这是否属实，但感觉确实如此，要制作一款成功并具有突破性的消费者应用程序，您几乎需要一个持续在所有事情上保持专注的独特头脑。
And the way Evan did that is very close to the design team who basically ran product.
埃文的做法与基本上负责产品运营的设计团队非常接近。
Gaurav Misra: That's very true.
高拉夫·米斯拉：确实如此。
Yeah, it's very true.
是的，这是非常正确的。
And he was able to keep the context of the entire app in his head at the same time.
他能够同时将整个应用程序的上下文保留在他的脑海中。
He knew the interdependencies and what we're doing and why we're doing it.
他知道相互依赖性以及我们正在做什么以及为什么这样做。
And so that gave him just very granular control over the company's product roadmap.
因此，这使他能够非常精细地控制公司的产品路线图。
Lenny Rachitsky: It makes me think about Brian Chesky and Airbnb is a consumer product, it's not a social network, but I wonder if that's just an interesting insight just for consumer products.
Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起 Brian Chesky，Airbnb 是一种消费品，而不是社交网络，但我想知道这是否只是针对消费品的有趣见解。
They will generally do better if there's one person with a really ...
如果有一个人真正......，他们通常会做得更好。
the right sort of combination of experiences, insights, and just they continue to run and own every detail.
经验、见解的正确组合，以及他们继续经营和掌握每一个细节。
Gaurav Misra: Definitely.
高拉夫·米斯拉：当然。
And also the ability to bring about change, the ability to truly energize an entire organization to do something that's not just incremental but fundamental.
还有带来变革的能力，真正激励整个组织去做一些渐进的、而且是根本性的事情的能力。
Gaurav Misra: Founder mode.
Gaurav Misra：创始人模式。
That's what we're getting to, basically.
基本上，这就是我们要做的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, ever heard of it.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，听说过。
Okay.
好的。
And then you said that these designers, so I know it's famous that Snap had no PMs for a long time.
然后你说这些设计师，所以我知道 Snap 很长一段时间没有 PM 是出了名的。
Designers were PMs.
设计师是产品经理。
This point you made about the designers where PME is really important.
关于设计师，您提出了 PME 非常重要的观点。
I think a lot of people look at this, they're like, "Amazing.
我想很多人看到这个，他们都会说：“太棒了。
We're just going to hire just designers.
我们只会雇用设计师。
We don't need all these PMs.
我们不需要所有这些 PM。
Slow everything down.
一切都慢下来。
Just tell us what not to build." Can you just talk about the level of these designers?
只要告诉我们不应该建造什么就可以了。”能简单谈谈这些设计师的水平吗？
What allowed them to be as successful as they were without any PMs?
是什么让他们在没有 PM 的情况下取得如此成功？
Gaurav Misra: Yeah, I mean I think what was expected from the designers now was not just the ability to design, the skill set of designing, which all of them were IC designers by the way.
Gaurav Misra：是的，我的意思是，我认为现在对设计师的期望不仅仅是设计能力和设计技能，顺便说一句，他们都是 IC 设计师。
And there were no reports, so they weren't allowed to have reports actually.
而且没有任何报告，所以他们实际上不被允许有报告。
And so they were designing everything themselves, but they also had to have the leadership skills to go figure out the roadmap, write all the documents, work with the different teams, figure out shipping schedules and just know everything, not just the technical and the engineering part, but the UX and the UI and the product needs and why are we doing this.
因此，他们自己设计一切，但他们还必须具备领导技能，能够制定路线图、编写所有文档、与不同的团队合作、制定运输时间表，并了解一切，不仅仅是技术和工程部分，还有用户体验、用户界面和产品需求以及我们为什么要这样做。
Gaurav Misra: The roadmap, there's just a ton to keep in mind.
Gaurav Misra：路线图上有很多事情需要记住。
And that means that it was a job that was just highly ...
这意味着这是一份非常......
it was very high workload.
这是非常高的工作量。
No doubt, very high workload.
毫无疑问，工作量非常大。
These people work really hard and they were paid highly too.
这些人工作非常努力，而且工资也很高。
For what it's worth, they were paid way higher than you would expect designers or PMs or engineers to be paid with quarterly bonuses and all kinds of things.
就其价值而言，他们的薪酬远高于您对设计师、产品经理或工程师的预期，包括季度奖金和各种其他费用。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这很有趣。
And it reminds, people always say, "Why do you need PMs?" There's like someone has to do the work that a PM does.
它提醒人们，人们总是说，“为什么需要产品经理？”就像必须有人做 PM 所做的工作一样。
They're not sitting around doing nothing.
他们不会坐以待毙。
And it's important to note the person that will take on the PME work, they have to be good at it and enjoy it.
重要的是要注意将承担 PME 工作的人，他们必须擅长并享受它。
And a lot of designers don't want to be doing writing docs and organizing stakeholders and getting alignment and ...
许多设计师不想编写文档、组织利益相关者、协调一致……
Gaurav Misra: 100%, 100%.
高拉夫·米斯拉：100%，100%。
That's why it was so hard to find those people who were able to do two things.
这就是为什么很难找到那些能够做两件事的人。
I actually think there's an insight in there is innovation between when you're merging craft right between two different functions.
事实上，我认为当你在两个不同的功能之间融合工艺时，就会有一种创新的洞察力。
And I do think there's something special about one person doing two different functions or at least being able to do.
我确实认为一个人承担两项不同的职能或至少能够做到这一点是很特别的。
And I think a lot of unique insight and innovation can come from that.
我认为很多独特的见解和创新都可以从中产生。
Gaurav Misra: I actually think on my personal side, I eventually joined the design team.
Gaurav Misra：实际上我个人认为，我最终加入了设计团队。
I started at Snap on the engineering team.
我从 Snap 的工程团队开始。
I eventually joined the design team over the last two years that I was at Snap.
在 Snap 的最后两年里，我最终加入了设计团队。
And a big part of what I did there was create this function called design engineering.
我在那里所做的很大一部分是创建了这个称为设计工程的功能。
And that was actually a different combination.
这实际上是一个不同的组合。
It wasn't the designer PM.
这不是设计师 PM。
It was the designer engineer.
这是设计师工程师。
The person who can think of the UX design it and also build it and launch it, all of those things.
能够想到用户体验的人可以设计它、构建它并发布它，所有这些事情。
Gaurav Misra: And we saw both the ability to take designers and teach them engineering and take engineers and teach them design as part of that.
Gaurav Misra：我们看到了让设计师教他们工程学和让工程师教他们设计的能力都是其中的一部分。
Obviously, the reason that we created that function was very different.
显然，我们创建该函数的原因非常不同。
It was actually to continue innovating as the company got bigger.
实际上是随着公司规模的扩大而不断创新。
One of the problems that we identified was that as the company got bigger and bigger and there's like 500 engineers, 1,000 engineers, 2,000 engineers, 3,000, suddenly it just becomes very difficult to do everything.
我们发现的问题之一是，随着公司规模越来越大，大约有 500 名工程师、1,000 名工程师、2,000 名工程师、3,000 名工程师，突然间，做所有事情都变得非常困难。
Gaurav Misra: Everything is a six-month project or a one-year project.
Gaurav Misra：一切都是一个为期六个月的项目或一年的项目。
Every product is a massive investment of 500 engineers and a lot of time.
每一个产品都是500名工程师和大量时间的巨大投资。
And so you really have to pick your bets.
所以你真的必须选择你的赌注。
If you get it wrong, if you are innovating and trying to create new products and you spend 500 engineers for a year and it doesn't work, it's a big problem.
如果你搞错了，如果你正在创新并尝试创造新产品，而你花费了 500 名工程师一年的时间却不起作用，那就是一个大问题。
You're going to be in trouble, especially if we're coming like Snap where everybody was copying what they're doing so they had to constantly innovate, create new stuff and push the bounds.
你将会遇到麻烦，特别是如果我们像 Snap 一样，每个人都在复制他们正在做的事情，所以他们必须不断创新，创造新的东西并突破界限。
Gaurav Misra: I think Evan's philosophy was always he didn't fight the things that were getting copied, right?
Gaurav Misra：我认为埃文的哲学始终是他不与被复制的东西作斗争，对吧？
Stories got copied pretty much straight up.
故事几乎是直接复制的。
A lot of things that Snap created got copied, but he was more of the mindset of like, "Let's expand the pie, do something new and push the boundaries." We'll keep innovating basically.
Snap 创造的很多东西都被复制了，但他更多的心态是，“让我们把蛋糕做大，做一些新的事情，突破界限。”我们将不断创新。
And so to do that with that scale of a company becomes really hard.
因此，对于这样规模的公司来说，做到这一点变得非常困难。
And so we had this idea of let's create a small team where we can go and pretest a lot of these ideas because we had a lot of ideas and we can't go and build all of these things.
所以我们有这样的想法，让我们创建一个小团队，我们可以去预先测试很多这些想法，因为我们有很多想法，但我们不能去构建所有这些东西。
So the idea was create a small team of these design engineers, people who are able to do the entire product design engineering process in their head and can put together early versions of the product, which we would actually bake into the Snapchat app itself.
因此，我们的想法是创建一个由这些设计工程师组成的小团队，他们能够在头脑中完成整个产品设计工程过程，并且可以将产品的早期版本组合在一起，我们实际上会将其烘焙到 Snapchat 应用程序本身中。
Gaurav Misra: And we were able to even test, for example, run a test in Australia, see how it's performing.
Gaurav Misra：我们甚至能够进行测试，例如在澳大利亚进行测试，看看它的表现如何。
Run a test in a couple of high schools, just a couple of high schools, see how people behave.
在几所高中进行测试，只是几所高中，看看人们的行为如何。
And that way we already have data on how this might perform in a real world environment, but we haven't built it to production level.
这样我们就已经有了关于它在现实环境中如何执行的数据，但我们还没有将其构建到生产水平。
It's a prototype, essentially.
本质上，它是一个原型。
It's how a startup might build something.
这就是初创公司构建产品的方式。
Gaurav Misra: The same idea of what we're doing at our company now, build fast, get it out there, get feedback, understand whether it works or not, and then work with the engineering team to build it at a scale.
Gaurav Misra：与我们现在在公司所做的事情的想法相同，快速构建，将其发布，获取反馈，了解它是否有效，然后与工程团队合作大规模构建它。
Once we understand the product and the dynamics, then it makes sense to put on 500 engineers for six months to build it.
一旦我们了解了产品和动态，那么就可以派 500 名工程师花六个月的时间来构建它。
Gaurav Misra: So that was a big part of it.
Gaurav Misra：所以这是其中的一个重要部分。
I think the nice thing that came out of it that was completely unexpected but actually transformational for me in a way was obviously in big organizations, alignment is a big issue.
我认为它带来的好处是完全出乎意料的，但在某种程度上对我来说实际上是变革性的，显然在大型组织中，一致性是一个大问题。
How do you get everybody on the same page?
如何让每个人都达成共识？
And a big part of a PM's job is actually to create alignment and it can be a lot of work because you go talk to all these stakeholders and get them on the same page.
PM 工作的很大一部分实际上是建立一致性，这可能是一项艰巨的工作，因为你要与所有这些利益相关者交谈并让他们达成共识。
Gaurav Misra: But one of the insights that we had, which was unique was as the company gets bigger, you can actually create alignment by causing internal virality.
Gaurav Misra：但我们的独特见解之一是，随着公司规模的扩大，你实际上可以通过引起内部病毒式传播来建立联盟。
If there's enough people in the company, it actually starts acting like a consumer base might.
如果公司里有足够多的人，它实际上就会开始像消费者基础一样运作。
If you share something interesting with someone, they will share it with somebody else because they think it's interesting and you can actually create virality inside a company.
如果你与某人分享一些有趣的东西，他们也会与其他人分享，因为他们认为这很有趣，而且你实际上可以在公司内部创造病毒式传播。
Gaurav Misra: So one thing that we would do is we would create these prototype products.
Gaurav Misra：所以我们要做的一件事就是创建这些原型产品。
We would just go into an area, redo a bunch of stuff, create these prototype products that didn't exist in Snapchat normally, and then we would just share the build and it would explode.
我们只是进入一个区域，重做一堆东西，创建这些通常在 Snapchat 中不存在的原型产品，然后我们只是分享构建，它就会爆炸。
It would just go viral inside the company.
它会在公司内部迅速传播开来。
Day after day we would hear from engineers, then managers, then VPs, then eventually from Evan being like, "Oh my God, everyone's talking about this.
日复一日，我们会听到工程师、经理、副总裁、最后埃文的声音，“天哪，每个人都在谈论这个。
Why am I the last one to hear about it?"
为什么我是最后一个听说这件事的人？”
Gaurav Misra: So it would create instant alignment across the company of this is exciting, this is something that we want to get behind.
Gaurav Misra：这将在整个公司范围内实现即时协调，这是令人兴奋的，这是我们想要支持的事情。
And everyone would be asking, "When are we doing this?
每个人都会问：“我们什么时候这样做？
When is this happening?
这是什么时候发生的事？
I see someone's already working on it." So it was a great way to do that.
我看到有人已经在做这件事了。”所以这是一个很好的方法。
And once we really understood that the product actually had good dynamics and we had tested it, it was a great way to get it out in front of everybody and create this idea of, "Hey, we're all working on this.
一旦我们真正了解该产品实际上具有良好的动力并且我们对其进行了测试，这是将其展示在每个人面前并创造这样的想法的好方法：“嘿，我们都在努力解决这个问题。
This is the future."
这就是未来。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by Coda.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目由 Coda 为您带来。
I personally use Coda every single day to manage my podcast and also to manage my community.
我个人每天都使用 Coda 来管理我的播客和社区。
It's where I put the questions that I plan to ask every guest that's coming on the podcast.
我在这里提出了我计划向播客中的每位嘉宾提出的问题。
It's where I put my community resources.
这是我放置社区资源的地方。
It's how I manage my workflows.
这就是我管理工作流程的方式。
Here's how Coda can help you.
以下是 Coda 如何帮助您。
Lenny Rachitsky: Imagine starting a project at work and your vision is clear.
Lenny Rachitsky：想象一下，在工作中启动一个项目，并且您的愿景很清晰。
You know exactly who's doing what and where to find the data that you need to do your part.
您确切地知道谁在做什么以及在哪里可以找到完成您的工作所需的数据。
In fact, you don't have to waste time searching for anything because everything your team needs from project trackers and OKRs to documents and spreadsheets lives in one tab all in Coda.
事实上，您不必浪费时间搜索任何内容，因为您的团队所需的一切（从项目跟踪器和 OKR 到文档和电子表格）都位于 Coda 的一个选项卡中。
With Coda's collaborative all in one workspace, you get the flexibility of docs, the structure of spreadsheets, the power of applications, and the intelligence of AI all in one easy to organize tab.
借助 Coda 的协作式全合一工作区，您可以在一个易于组织的选项卡中获得文档的灵活性、电子表格的结构、应用程序的强大功能以及 AI 的智能。
Lenny Rachitsky: Like I mentioned earlier, I use Coda every single day.
Lenny Rachitsky：就像我之前提到的，我每天都使用 Coda。
And more than 50,000 teams trust Coda to keep them more aligned and focused.
超过 50,000 个团队相信 Coda 可以让他们更加协调和专注。
If you're a startup team looking to increase alignment and agility, Coda can help you move from planning to execution in record time.
如果您是一个希望提高一致性和敏捷性的初创团队，Coda 可以帮助您在创纪录的时间内从计划转向执行。
To try it for yourself, go to coda.io/lenny today and get six months free of the team plan for startups.
要亲自尝试，请立即访问 coda.io/lenny，并获得六个月免费的初创公司团队计划。
That's coda.io/lenny to get started for free and get six months of the team plan.
这是 coda.io/lenny 免费开始并获得六个月的团队计划。
coda.io/lenny.
coda.io/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: Another thread I want to follow up on is prototyping.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想跟进的另一个主题是原型设计。
It feels like that is where a lot of PM work is going is getting straight to a prototype versus design or versus PRDs.
感觉这就是许多 PM 工作的方向，直接进行原型与设计或 PRD 的比较。
And it feels like that's something that you did and worked super well.
感觉这就是你所做的事情并且效果非常好。
Basically, it's a team to prototype ideas that in theory now you can just build really quickly with AI.
基本上，这是一个对想法进行原型设计的团队，理论上现在你可以使用人工智能快速构建这些想法。
So I think that's really interesting, seeing where the feature's going, just ...
所以我认为这真的很有趣，看看这个功能的发展方向，只是......
Gaurav Misra: 100%.
高拉夫·米斯拉：100%。
Getting things in people's hands, trying it out.
把东西拿到人们手里，尝试一下。
Oftentimes, unless you truly try it out, in design, it can, in theory, look good with all the perfect conditions, but when you actually use it, you realize it's actually not that useful, for example.
通常，除非你在设计中真正尝试过，理论上它在所有完美条件下看起来都不错，但当你实际使用它时，你会意识到它实际上并没有那么有用。
Or when you give it to users.
或者当你将其提供给用户时。
And some of this is intuition, honestly, just like anything else, but there's nothing like getting something in the hands of users at the end of the day.
老实说，其中一些是直觉，就像其他任何事情一样，但没有什么比在一天结束时将东西交到用户手中更好的了。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love how many of these things you brought over to your current company, and I'm trying to think about, one is this idea of just constantly innovating feels like that's informed and tell me what I'm missing, but that feels like that's informed.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你给现在的公司带来了很多这样的东西，我正在努力思考，一个是不断创新的想法，感觉就像是明智的，并告诉我我错过了什么，但感觉就像是明智的。
The ship market will feature every single week.
船舶市场每周都会有特色。
This idea of getting design, starting almost with design versus PM a lot of times.
这种获得设计的想法，很多时候几乎是从设计开始，而不是从 PM 开始。
I'm curious why you don't even go straight to prototype in those cases.
我很好奇为什么在这种情况下你甚至不直接进入原型。
Is it just the tools aren't there yet or?
是只是工具还没有吗？
Gaurav Misra: I mean, I think our shipping process is fast enough that within a week we can get it out anyways.
Gaurav Misra：我的意思是，我认为我们的运输过程足够快，无论如何我们都可以在一周内将其取出。
So that way we just get user feedback, which is even better.
这样我们就可以获得用户反馈，这样就更好了。
Lenny Rachitsky: And then the other really interesting thing, I'm trying to visualize that triangle of a product team, the triad of PM, engineer, design.
Lenny Rachitsky：另外一件非常有趣的事情是，我试图形象化产品团队的三角关系，即产品经理、工程师、设计的三元组。
Feels like you guys at Snap took the corners, not the corners, the line of that triangle.
感觉就像 Snap 的你们抓住了角，而不是角，而是那个三角形的线。
And you have design engineers.
你们还有设计工程师。
You have design PMs.
您有设计 PM。
I imagine engineers were PME already.
我想工程师已经是 PME 了。
They're very product oriented PMs.
他们是非常注重产品的产品经理。
Did you have a function called design PMs?
你们有一个叫做设计 PM 的职能吗？
Probably not.
可能不会。
Gaurav Misra: I mean honestly, it's interesting.
Gaurav Misra：老实说，这很有趣。
Gaurav Misra: Yeah, engineer PMs should be a thing, I feel like, or every engineer should strive to understand the product, right?
Gaurav Misra：是的，我觉得工程师 PM 应该是一件事，或者每个工程师都应该努力理解产品，对吧？
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
A lot of companies operate that way.
很多公司都是这样运作的。
Like Stripe, I think they had hundreds of engineers before they hired the first PM because I think the engineers were doing what they did at Snap to do the PM work.
像 Stripe 一样，我认为他们在聘请第一位 PM 之前拥有数百名工程师，因为我认为工程师们正在做他们在 Snap 所做的 PM 工作。
So it feels like at your company you don't operate that way.
所以感觉你的公司并不是这样运作的。
It feels like you have PMs, engineers, designers.
感觉就像你有产品经理、工程师、设计师。
Talk about why you decided not to approach things that way.
谈谈为什么你决定不以这种方式处理事情。
Gaurav Misra: I do think PM is a very valuable function.
Gaurav Misra：我确实认为 PM 是一个非常有价值的职能。
I think it may be actually, and maybe I'll get roasted for this, but I think at the end of the day, not hiring PMs at Snap might've been one of those decisions where it actually succeeded despite that and because someone needs to do that work.
我认为这可能是真的，也许我会因此而受到批评，但我认为归根结底，不在 Snap 雇用产品经理可能是那些实际上成功的决定之一，因为需要有人来做这项工作。
If you don't have enough people to do it, then nobody truly owns it and then it doesn't really happen.
如果没有足够的人来做这件事，那么就没有人真正拥有它，那么它就不会真正发生。
Or if it doesn't happen, no one's responsible, which is not the right structure you want in an organization.
或者，如果没有发生，就没有人负责，这不是您想要的组织结构。
So I think though, that being said, there was something unique to be said about what if a designer had the PM mindset.
所以我认为，话虽这么说，但如果设计师拥有 PM 思维模式，就会有一些独特之处。
Gaurav Misra: It's actually the same idea as what if an engineer had the PM mindset and then you get even crazier.
Gaurav Misra：这实际上与如果一名工程师拥有 PM 心态然后你会变得更加疯狂的想法是一样的。
What if the PM had a design and engineering mindset?
如果产品经理具有设计和工程思维怎么办？
I think all we're talking about is everybody truly understanding all the functions that they're working with.
我认为我们所讨论的是每个人都真正理解他们正在使用的所有功能。
Having a fundamental, broad understanding of the functions they're working with.
对他们正在使用的功能有基本、广泛的了解。
Gaurav Misra: At Captions, we're actually going even one step further than that.
Gaurav Misra：在 Captions，我们实际上比这更进一步。
Why shouldn't the PM understand marketing?
为什么 PM 不应该了解营销？
I think that's actually the biggest opportunity for PMs to understand is how do we actually find the users who have this problem?
我认为这实际上是产品经理了解的最大机会是我们如何真正找到有这个问题的用户？
I think that's a big part of solving the problem.
我认为这是解决问题的一个重要部分。
I have a unique take on this in terms of I actually think PMs should own all the way to marketing in a way.
我对此有独特的看法，我实际上认为产品经理应该以某种方式掌控整个营销过程。
And the reason is that if you think about marketing, it's expanding the surface area of the product, right?
原因是，如果你考虑营销，它就是扩大产品的表面积，对吧？
It's like search marketing is just placing a button to your product in Google.
这就像搜索营销只是在 Google 中放置一个指向您的产品的按钮。
Gaurav Misra: Facebook ads is just placing a button to your app in Facebook.
Gaurav Misra：Facebook 广告只是在 Facebook 中的应用程序上放置一个按钮。
It's almost like you work at Facebook.
这几乎就像你在 Facebook 工作一样。
You work at Facebook, you have a button in the app somewhere, you make a specific thing and people show up.
你在 Facebook 工作，你在应用程序的某个地方有一个按钮，你做了一个特定的事情，人们就会出现。
The funnel begins there and you have all the metrics all the way from the beginning, all the way from when the user tapped on the button in Facebook and then they went down all the steps and then they landed on some onboarding screen and they did the thing, they used the application.
漏斗从这里开始，你从一开始就拥有所有的指标，从用户点击 Facebook 中的按钮开始，然后他们完成所有步骤，然后他们登陆一些入门屏幕，他们做了事情，他们使用了应用程序。
Gaurav Misra: That's where the journey begins.
Gaurav Misra：这就是旅程开始的地方。
And all of that is, in a way, it's a product.
从某种程度上来说，所有这一切都是一种产品。
It's the same skillset.
这是相同的技能。
Understanding users from that point on is I think that's fundamental.
我认为从那时起了解用户是基础。
How do we not do that today?
今天我们怎么能不这样做呢？
We should be.
我们应该是。
So that's how we think about stuff.
这就是我们思考问题的方式。
But I think the core idea is that every function should understand every other function deeply as much as possible and maybe even to the level where they can operate in that function.
但我认为核心思想是每个功能都应该尽可能深入地理解其他功能，甚至可能达到可以在该功能中操作的水平。
And that just increases the likelihood that all decisions being made in the company at the micro level will be optimized for all possible parts of the funnel that different people are essentially looking after.
这只会增加公司在微观层面做出的所有决策都将针对不同人员本质上关注的漏斗的所有可能部分进行优化的可能性。
That's something we think about quite a bit.
这是我们经常思考的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: I completely agree with that take.
Lenny Rachitsky：我完全同意这个观点。
It's interesting that at Airbnb, Brian was famous for changing the titles of all product managers to product marketing manager for exactly this point because he's like-
有趣的是，在 Airbnb，Brian 因将所有产品经理的头衔改为产品营销经理而闻名，正是在这一点上，因为他喜欢——
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
you should be doing the marketing, you shouldn't just be building the thing.
你应该做营销，而不仅仅是建造东西。
And to me, I've always assumed as a PM, your job is for this thing to grow and to get adopted and be loved.
对我来说，我一直认为作为一名产品经理，你的工作就是让这个东西成长、被采用和被爱。
Lenny Rachitsky: So it's interesting people don't already think of it that way.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，人们还没有这么想。
Lenny Rachitsky: But obviously, it's hard to learn the skills of being awesome and paid growth and SEO and product marketing, messaging, positioning, but I completely agree.
Lenny Rachitsky：但显然，学习出色的技能和付费增长以及搜索引擎优化和产品营销、消息传递、定位是很困难的，但我完全同意。
That's such an important element of building a product.
这是构建产品的一个重要元素。
You're not just building a thing, hope it works.
你不只是在建造一个东西，希望它能起作用。
Goodbye.
再见。
So I love that that's how you think about it.
所以我喜欢你的想法。
And so I guess when you hire PMs, it sounds like you look for marketing instinct and some experiences.
所以我想当你雇佣产品经理时，听起来你会寻找营销直觉和一些经验。
Gaurav Misra: 100%.
高拉夫·米斯拉：100%。
And at least the ability and instinct to be able to learn it.
至少有能够学习它的能力和本能。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Okay, so I'm going to share one other thing that I thought as you were talking that I think is really interesting and it comes up a bunch on this podcast and this connects back to Ev and what we can learn from his success.
好吧，我要分享另一件事，当你在谈论时，我认为这真的很有趣，它在这个播客中出现了很多，这与埃夫以及我们可以从他的成功中学到的东西有关。
So Patrick Olson once tweeted this tweet that has really stuck with me, which is it was around user research and the way he described it is user research isn't go to user research that informs what you build and then you build that.
因此，帕特里克·奥尔森（Patrick Olson）曾经在推特上发布过这条推文，这条推文让我印象深刻，它是围绕用户研究的，他所描述的用户研究并不是先告诉你要构建什么，然后你再构建它。
It's instead you do user research, it informs the mental model you have as a leader, a product builder of what your customers need and what pains they have, and you adjust that model in your head and then that's how you decide what to build.
相反，你进行用户研究，它告诉你作为领导者、产品构建者的心智模型，了解你的客户需要什么以及他们有什么痛苦，然后你在头脑中调整该模型，然后这就是你决定构建什么的方式。
And it feels like Ev is very much that.
感觉 Ev 就是这样。
His head was learning what people need, teens in particular, and it just worked.
他的头脑正在了解人们的需求，尤其是青少年的需求，而且它确实有效。
Gaurav Misra: Yeah, I think it's very spot on.
Gaurav Misra：是的，我认为这是非常正确的。
I would say though Snap didn't like user research as a function for the longest time.
我想说的是，虽然 Snap 很长一段时间以来都不喜欢将用户研究作为一项功能。
I think there was one user researcher in the company until, again, 5,000 employees, the post IPO basically.
我认为公司里只有一名用户研究员，直到 5,000 名员工（基本上是 IPO 后）。
But I think the people that were making a lot of the product decisions and the CEO himself, of course, were very steeped in how the user behaves and how they operate.
但我认为，做出很多产品决策的人和首席执行官本人当然非常关注用户的行为方式和操作方式。
They understood that.
他们明白这一点。
Gaurav Misra: I do think Snap also had a unique way of thinking about how to determine if a product is within scope or out of scope of what their mission was.
Gaurav Misra：我确实认为 Snap 还有一种独特的思考方式，即如何确定产品是否在其使命范围内或之外。
And I think a lot of companies use the cyber framework and we try to as well, but essentially, the idea at the core was that they want to enable private sharing in a safe way.
我认为很多公司都使用网络框架，我们也尝试这样做，但本质上，核心想法是他们希望以安全的方式实现私人共享。
So I think that makes it clear that certain things just are out of scope for Snap.
所以我认为这清楚地表明某些事情超出了 Snap 的范围。
Gaurav Misra: It's actually one of the reasons why Snap wasn't the company to discover "short form video," TikTok style stuff because it was just against the nature of the company to even try something.
Gaurav Misra：这实际上是 Snap 不是一家发现“短视频”、TikTok 风格的东西的公司的原因之一，因为尝试某些东西就违背了公司的本质。
It was against the mission of the company.
这违背了公司的使命。
Public sharing means possibly bullying and bad behaviors, which is exactly what Snap was trying to avoid.
公开分享可能意味着欺凌和不良行为，而这正是 Snap 试图避免的。
We don't want those behaviors to develop on the app.
我们不希望这些行为在应用程序上发展。
So for example, on Instagram stories, you can share somebody else's stories to your followers.
例如，在 Instagram 故事中，您可以将其他人的故事分享给您的关注者。
I can take your story and share it to my followers.
我可以把你的故事分享给我的追随者。
You can't do that on Snap.
你不能在 Snap 上这样做。
Gaurav Misra: And there was a discussion about should we do this?
Gaurav Misra：我们讨论过我们应该这样做吗？
No, because it can enable bullying.
不，因为它可能会导致欺凌行为。
Essentially, you're not consenting to your thing being shared to my followers and that's essentially bad.
从本质上讲，你不同意将你的东西分享给我的关注者，这本质上是很糟糕的。
So a lot of it was done based on this type of pillar-based thinking of this is our mission, this is what we're trying to do, does it fit within or is it outside?
所以很多事情都是基于这种基于支柱的思维来完成的，这是我们的使命，这就是我们正在努力做的事情，它适合内部还是外部？
If it's outside, we don't do it no matter what the cost of it is, no matter how exciting it is.
如果是在外面，无论成本有多大，无论多么令人兴奋，我们都不会这样做。
Gaurav Misra: And even on Spotlight, the big challenge was like how do you take something like that and put that inside the Snap mission?
Gaurav Misra：即使在 Spotlight 上，最大的挑战就是如何将类似的东西放入 Snap 任务中？
So that was something we worked on quite a bit.
所以这是我们做了大量工作的事情。
Yeah, I mean I think there's tons of stories about earlier versions.
是的，我的意思是我认为有很多关于早期版本的故事。
I mean Snap almost had essentially what is TikTok earlier than TikTok existed and it died out because it didn't align with the mission essentially, but happy to get into it.
我的意思是，早在 TikTok 存在之前，Snap 就几乎拥有了 TikTok 的本质，但它却消亡了，因为它本质上与使命不符，但很高兴加入其中。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, that actually would be really interesting, because interesting that these things are important.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这实际上非常有趣，因为有趣的是这些事情很重要。
It's important to have these clear values in the mission of the company and to not focus on things that are outside that.
重要的是在公司的使命中拥有这些明确的价值观，而不是关注之外的事情。
And then you hear these stories of they had TikTok potentially.
然后你就会听到他们拥有 TikTok 潜力的故事。
So yeah, whatever you can share there, that'd be awesome.
所以是的，无论你能在那里分享什么，那就太棒了。
Gaurav Misra: Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you remember this, but there was this product called Our Stories, and essentially it was MyStory, but it was a public story.
Gaurav Misra：是的，我的意思是，我不知道你是否记得这一点，但有一个名为“我们的故事”的产品，本质上它是“我的故事”，但它是一个公共故事。
And it started off with this idea of campus stories where you can post to your campus and other people can see it.
它始于校园故事的想法，你可以将其发布到你的校园，其他人也可以看到它。
And that actually started creating a lot of virality because essentially people would post.
这实际上开始产生大量的病毒式传播，因为基本上人们会发帖。
There was viral moments truly where people would post stuff like, "Oh, I think two people fell in love on it or something like that." Those types of things really went viral and it had really good engagement.
确实有一些病毒式的时刻，人们会发布诸如“哦，我认为两个人爱上了它或类似的东西”之类的东西。这些类型的事情确实像病毒一样传播开来，并且具有非常好的参与度。
Gaurav Misra: But at the end of the day, the problem was that we were against algorithmic essentially ranking of those types of things.
Gaurav Misra：但归根结底，问题是我们反对对这些类型的事物进行算法排序。
So there was a curation team that was looking through every single one so that there's no negative behaviors happening essentially on the app.
因此，有一个管理团队正在仔细检查每一个应用程序，以便基本上不会在应用程序上发生负面行为。
That was just not scalable.
那是不可扩展的。
Even though it had really high engagement and was doing well, it just wasn't feasible to have a person looking at every single thing posted to determine whether it's appropriate or not.
尽管它的参与度非常高并且做得很好，但让一个人查看发布的每件事来确定它是否合适是不可行的。
Gaurav Misra: It ended up dying out, but it looked like what was an early version of TikTok before it had launched.
Gaurav Misra：它最终消亡了，但它看起来像是 TikTok 推出之前的早期版本。
So I think in a way though it was a good thing because I think Snap does have a mission and I think it is solving a problem.
所以我认为在某种程度上这是一件好事，因为我认为 Snap 确实有一个使命，而且我认为它正在解决一个问题。
I do think there is a bifurcation of social media at this point.
我确实认为社交媒体目前存在分歧。
There is what you traditionally think of as social networking where you share things with your friends.
您传统上认为社交网络是您与朋友分享事物的地方。
And by the way, remember the days where that used to be the way that apps would go viral.
顺便说一句，请记住，这曾经是应用程序病毒式传播的方式。
You would share things with your friends and then they would share with their friends and everybody was worried about friend sharing and how do you send to a friend and can I text message my friend or whatever.
你会与你的朋友分享东西，然后他们会与他们的朋友分享，每个人都担心朋友分享以及你如何发送给朋友，我可以给我的朋友发短信或其他什么。
Gaurav Misra: That time is over.
Gaurav Misra：那个时代已经结束了。
Virality now happens through a completely different mechanism.
病毒式传播现在通过一种完全不同的机制发生。
It happens through essentially algorithms that are deciding whether your piece of content is worth showing to an arbitrary number of people, and this is the new age of social media.
它本质上是通过算法来决定你的内容是否值得向任意数量的人展示，这就是社交媒体的新时代。
It's TikTok, it's YouTube Shorts and Instagram Reels and so on.
它是 TikTok、YouTube Shorts 和 Instagram Reels 等等。
And I think actually it's changing the fundamental nature of how people interact, fundamental nature of how things go viral.
我认为实际上它正在改变人们互动方式的基本性质，以及事物传播方式的基本性质。
And I actually think from a regulatory perspective, we should be thinking these as differently.
事实上，我认为从监管的角度来看，我们应该以不同的方式思考这些问题。
Gaurav Misra: On one side, you have something where you're deciding who sees something and then on the other side, you have something where the company is deciding which means that it's semi curated, right?
Gaurav Misra：一方面，你决定谁能看到某些东西，而另一方面，你有公司决定的东西，这意味着它是半策划的，对吗？
It's actually the company's voice.
这实际上是公司的声音。
So yeah, I don't know, should Section 230 apply to that?
是的，我不知道第 230 条是否适用于此？
I have no idea.
我不知道。
Or maybe not.
或者也许不是。
Maybe we're thinking about this the wrong way, so it should be interesting.
也许我们思考这个问题的方式是错误的，所以它应该很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
All right.
好的。
Well, I'm out of my depth on the legality decision, so I'm going to not follow that thread, but I imagine there's something really interesting there actually.
好吧，我对合法性决定的了解超出了我的深度，所以我不会遵循这个线索，但我想实际上那里有一些非常有趣的东西。
So you've been talking about just how much things are changing and I just wanted to follow that thread and specifically, you guys are at the cutting edge of what is possible with AI video.
所以你们一直在谈论事情正在发生多大的变化，我只是想遵循这个思路，具体来说，你们正处于人工智能视频可能的最前沿。
Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like we're approaching and maybe we're there.
Lenny Rachitsky：感觉我们正在接近，也许我们就在那里。
This world where you have no idea if it's real or AI.
这个世界你不知道它是真实的还是人工智能的。
I'm curious, first of all, just how far you think we are from that and second of all, the implications on the world where you can just generate any video you want.
我很好奇，首先，你认为我们离这个目标还有多远；其次，这对你可以生成任何你想要的视频的世界的影响。
Gaurav Misra: It's fundamental.
Gaurav Misra：这是基础。
At the end of the day, a time where video images, audio can't be trusted actually hasn't existed for a while.
说到底，视频图像、音频不可信的时代其实已经不存在了。
If you think about ...
如果你想...
I mean there was a world in the 1800s where there was no video or audio or images and everything was proven by he said, she said for the most part.
我的意思是，在 1800 年代有一个世界，没有视频、音频或图像，一切都被他说的证明了，她说大部分都是这样。
And it's possible that if everything can be generated and anything can be created and it looks just as real as if it were real and there's no way to tell, then we might actually return to that world where there's no way to prove anything besides physical evidence or he said, she said.
她说，如果一切都可以生成，任何东西都可以被创造，而且它看起来就像真实的一样真实，而且无法辨别，那么我们实际上可能会回到那个除了物理证据之外没有办法证明任何东西的世界，或者他说。
Gaurav Misra: And I think that's scary, but also possibly opens a bunch of new opportunity for someone to figure out how to solve this problem.
Gaurav Misra：我认为这很可怕，但也可能为人们找到解决这个问题的方法提供了很多新的机会。
I think it's going to be a big problem.
我认为这将是一个大问题。
I do think today, we are almost there in terms of creating absolutely photorealistic video.
我确实认为今天我们已经几乎可以制作出绝对逼真的视频了。
I mean the very recent models, a very cutting edge is just about ...
我的意思是最近的型号，非常前沿的就是......
It feels like a few centimeters away from achieving it, but I do think to fully get there to the point where it cannot be differentiated at all, it's still a couple of years away.
感觉离实现还差几厘米，但我确实认为要完全达到完全无法区分的程度，还需要几年的时间。
Gaurav Misra: I also think that it is use case driven in a way.
Gaurav Misra：我还认为它在某种程度上是用例驱动的。
I think thinking about Captions for a second, we take a unique view on what type of video we want to focus on.
我认为考虑一下字幕，我们对我们想要关注的视频类型有独特的看法。
Video generation and text to video generation.
视频生成和文本到视频生成。
If you look at it today, it's all silent video.
如果你今天看，这都是无声视频。
There's no audio and it's often what you think of as stop video or B-roll, right?
没有音频，这通常是您认为的停止视频或幕后花絮，对吧？
You can actually make a movie with B-roll.
你实际上可以用幕后花絮来制作一部电影。
And a lot of a movie or a TV show or a social media post or an ad actually is dialogue or monologue.
很多电影、电视节目、社交媒体帖子或广告实际上都是对话或独白。
That's actually what it is is people talking to each other, to the camera, interacting.
这实际上就是人们互相交谈、对着镜头、互动。
That's actually what makes true story.
这实际上就是真实的故事。
Gaurav Misra: B-roll is supportive elements that are showing up to set the scene or something like maybe before the scene opens, you see a few shots of New York City or LA or something, and then you jump into the room and now two people are talking.
Gaurav Misra：B-roll 是支持性元素，它们出现来设置场景或类似场景开始之前，你会看到一些纽约市或洛杉矶或其他地方的镜头，然后你跳进房间，现在两个人正在说话。
So our goal is to solve the talking video problem.
所以我们的目标是解决有声视频问题。
How do we create video where people are delivering dialogue or monologue or things like that?
我们如何制作人们进行对话或独白或类似内容的视频？
And that's what we focus on purely.
这就是我们纯粹关注的重点。
And there actually isn't a lot of work happening in that area today and it's not a solved problem.
实际上，目前该领域并没有开展很多工作，这也不是一个已解决的问题。
We're getting there, we're getting closer and closer, but today's models actually bifurcate a little bit.
我们正在实现这个目标，而且越来越近，但今天的模型实际上有点分歧。
Gaurav Misra: So there's a set of companies today that are able to create these types of what we're talking about is avatar videos.
Gaurav Misra：所以现在有一些公司能够制作我们所说的这些类型的头像视频。
They're using this technology called neural rendering.
他们正在使用一种称为神经渲染的技术。
It's actually not a technology that's affected by the transformer and diffusion model revolution or the large model revolution, essentially.
实际上，本质上它并不是一项受到变压器和扩散模型革命或大型模型革命影响的技术。
This is a technology that existed separately and it doesn't have anything to do with the AI growth happening right now.
这是一项单独存在的技术，与目前人工智能的发展没有任何关系。
It just happens to produce semi-realistic outputs, but it actually stops at some point because it's not clear how it becomes generalizable in every situation.
它只是碰巧产生半现实的输出，但它实际上在某个时刻停止了，因为不清楚它如何在每种情况下变得通用。
Gaurav Misra: It has to be trained on people individually.
Gaurav Misra：它必须针对人们进行单独培训。
So you might ingest a little bit of video of you and then you can generate you.
所以你可能会摄取一些你的视频，然后你就可以生成你。
And so it's a different technology and a different outcome, essentially.
因此，本质上这是一种不同的技术和不同的结果。
And a bunch of companies using this type of model, a bunch of companies are doing general text to video with no audio today.
如今，许多公司正在使用这种类型的模型，许多公司正在做一般的文本到视频的转换，但没有音频。
These are large generative models and they have the capability to do more, but that frontier just hasn't been reached yet.
这些是大型生成模型，它们有能力做更多事情，但尚未达到这一前沿。
I think there's no doubt in anybody's mind on the research side that it is 100% solvable.
我认为在研究方面，任何人都毫无疑问地认为这是 100% 可解决的。
It's just like somebody has to go do it and we haven't gotten there yet.
就好像必须有人去做，而我们还没有做到。
Nobody has had the time to go and do that yet.
目前还没有人有时间去做这件事。
So that's where we're at, essentially.
这基本上就是我们现在的处境。
Gaurav Misra: We're working purely on large generative models for talking videos.
Gaurav Misra：我们纯粹致力于研究有声视频的大型生成模型。
So that's our core focus.
这就是我们的核心焦点。
I do think though, from a safety perspective, we have a unique framework or how we think about it.
但我确实认为，从安全角度来看，我们有一个独特的框架或我们的思考方式。
So generally videos divide into two categories.
所以一般视频分为两类。
So for us, we think on one side of what is documentation, so this is the type of video that it could be a personal video where you're taking a video with your friends and you're hanging out, you're at a restaurant.
因此，对于我们来说，我们认为文档的一方面是视频类型，它可以是个人视频，您可以在其中与朋友一起拍摄视频，并且在闲逛或在餐厅里。
It's documenting what happened.
它正在记录所发生的事情。
You had fun, whatever it was, it's for your memories.
你玩得很开心，无论是什么，都是为了你的回忆。
And there's a non-personal version of this which is like, oh, it's like a reporter documenting a crime or something that happened or whatever it is and who was involved, where was it?
有一个非个人版本，就像，哦，就像记者记录犯罪或发生的事情或无论是什么以及谁参与了，它在哪里？
Maybe it was a natural disaster or something, and this is for history.
也许这是一场自然灾害或其他什么，这已经成为历史了。
We want to see what happened.
我们想看看发生了什么。
Gaurav Misra: And there's actually no benefit to AI-generated video in any of this.
Gaurav Misra：实际上，人工智能生成的视频在这方面没有任何好处。
Actually, all of this, it's just negative.
事实上，这一切都只是消极的。
It's all negative.
都是负面的。
If we are generating fake versions of reality to fool people, there's just nothing good about that.
如果我们制造虚假的现实版本来愚弄人们，那就没有什么好处了。
And we want to stay away from that, essentially.
从本质上讲，我们希望远离这种情况。
We want to design products and build products that make it difficult to use for that particular use case, for anything that falls within that.
我们希望设计和构建的产品使其难以用于特定用例以及属于该用例的任何内容。
And on the other side, you have what we think of as storytelling.
另一方面，你有我们所认为的讲故事。
Gaurav Misra: Now this could be ads, it could be social media posts, it could be TV, movies.
Gaurav Misra：现在这可能是广告，可能是社交媒体帖子，也可能是电视、电影。
All of these things are storytelling.
所有这些都是在讲故事。
They're designed for entertainment, they're designed for fun.
它们是为娱乐而设计的，它们是为乐趣而设计的。
And nobody believes if you watch a Geico commercial, you're not thinking that the gecko is real selling insurance somewhere out there.
没有人相信，如果您观看 Geico 广告，您不会认为壁虎是真正在某处销售保险的。
You know that this is fabricated and it's for entertainment.
你知道这是编造的，只是为了娱乐。
And same with reality TV even, right?
甚至真人秀节目也一样，对吧？
It's called reality TV.
这就是电视真人秀。
It's definitely not reality and social media, ads, all this stuff falls in the category.
这绝对不是现实，社交媒体、广告，所有这些东西都属于这一类。
Gaurav Misra: And if we can enable more people to tell stories and entertain other people and get their message out there, that is pure positive.
Gaurav Misra：如果我们能让更多的人讲故事、娱乐其他人并传播他们的信息，那绝对是积极的。
This is where we want to focus.
这是我们想要关注的地方。
And a lot of our effort in the product and design process goes into how do we design products and build products that specifically make it really hard to use on one side and really easy to use on the other side.
我们在产品和设计过程中的大量努力都集中在如何设计产品和构建产品，特别是使其一侧很难使用，而另一侧却很容易使用。
And that's the real challenge.
这才是真正的挑战。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's really helpful.
Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很有帮助。
Something that I'm really curious about as you're chatting is ByteDance just released a really amazing model.
在你们聊天时，我真正好奇的是字节跳动刚刚发布了一个非常令人惊叹的模型。
I was actually just looking at it where you put a photo in, I think, and it just creates a video of this person talking in all these different ways.
我实际上只是在看你放照片的地方，我想，它只是创建了一个这个人以所有这些不同方式说话的视频。
Where does that fall amongst the buckets you just described?
它属于您刚才描述的那些桶中的哪个位置？
Gaurav Misra: I think that falls exactly in the area that we're in, which is talking people and that's what they're going after as well there.
Gaurav Misra：我认为这正是我们所处的领域，即与人交谈，这也是他们所追求的。
So that's actually one of the first examples of a large model that a larger company has released where it's able to do these dialogue or monologue videos.
所以这实际上是一家大公司发布的大型模型的第一个例子，它能够制作这些对话或独白视频。
And I mean you yourself, you've seen it, so I'm not going to describe it too much, but as you know, it's highly expressive.
我的意思是你自己，你已经看到了它，所以我不会过多描述它，但如你所知，它具有很强的表现力。
It doesn't look like an avatar video.
它看起来不像头像视频。
It looks like ...
看起来像...
Gaurav Misra: And that's because of the technology that's used is fundamentally different.
Gaurav Misra：这是因为所使用的技术根本不同。
It's just like this is using a true large diffusion model is what they use.
就像他们使用的是真正的大扩散模型一样。
Whereas most companies that are working on avatar technology are actually using something pretty basic in comparison.
相比之下，大多数致力于阿凡达技术的公司实际上使用的是非常基本的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: How long has it been since that Will Smith spaghetti video?
兰尼·拉奇茨基：威尔·史密斯的意大利面视频已经过去多久了？
Just to give us a reference of how fast things are moving?
只是为了给我们一个参考，看看事情进展得有多快？
Gaurav Misra: Oh my god, it's been so fast, right?
Gaurav Misra：天哪，这速度太快了，对吧？
Gaurav Misra: I think it's probably about a year and a half, two years.
Gaurav Misra：我认为可能需要一年半、两年左右。
Right?
正确的？
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
We'll link to that video and then you could tell basically that video is the state of the art of AI video one to two years ago.
我们将链接到该视频，然后您基本上可以看出该视频是一两年前人工智能视频的最新技术。
And then we'll link to this other Omni something.
然后我们将链接到其他 Omni 内容。
I forget what it's called.
我忘记它叫什么了。
I'm just showing what it's like today.
我只是展示今天的情况。
Lenny Rachitsky: Geez, Louise.
莱尼·拉契茨基：天啊，路易丝。
Okay, final question and this is around something that I know you have a really interesting insight on, which is that you see marketing using AI video basically as the final frontier of how people will experience AI is marketing, is seeing it in marketing channels.
好吧，最后一个问题，我知道你对此有一个非常有趣的见解，那就是你认为使用人工智能视频进行营销基本上是人们如何体验人工智能的最后前沿，即营销，是在营销渠道中看到它。
Talk about why you think that's the case and just what that looks like.
谈谈你为什么认为是这种情况以及情况是什么样的。
Gaurav Misra: It comes back to what we were talking about before where the reality is that no matter how interesting, advanced and amazing a technology is, science fiction has become reality.
Gaurav Misra：回到我们之前讨论的问题，现实是，无论一项技术多么有趣、先进和令人惊叹，科幻小说都已成为现实。
We were talking about this.
我们正在谈论这个。
What was literally science fiction on TV is real now and most people still don't even know about it, to be honest.
电视上的科幻小说现在已经成为现实，老实说，大多数人仍然不知道。
Gaurav Misra: My parents live in India and they are the only ones in the neighborhood that know about ChatGPT and they write these amazing notes to the community just with all these words.
Gaurav Misra：我的父母住在印度，他们是附近唯一知道 ChatGPT 的人，他们用这些文字向社区写下了这些令人惊叹的笔记。
And people are just like, "How did you get so good at writing?" And they're not telling anybody, but there's still a ton of people who don't even know that these advancements have happened.
人们会问，“你怎么写得这么好？”他们没有告诉任何人，但仍然有很多人甚至不知道这些进步已经发生。
And so adaption is actually much slower, even for the most exciting things.
因此，即使对于最令人兴奋的事情，适应实际上也要慢得多。
Of course, in tech circles, everybody's talking about it, but the reality is it takes a while to get out there.
当然，在科技圈子里，每个人都在谈论它，但现实是它需要一段时间才能实现。
Gaurav Misra: And I think for companies that are going to succeed, they're going to have to figure out how to market these products so that they can be the ones to reach all these people that have the problems that they're now able to solve.
Gaurav Misra：我认为对于想要成功的公司来说，他们必须弄清楚如何营销这些产品，这样他们才能接触到所有那些有他们现在能够解决的问题的人。
And we think about that every day.
我们每天都在思考这个问题。
So on that note, as a consumer product, we spend a bunch of time and money on marketing our products, and we often use performance channels and all kinds of things, but about a year ago, we would run AI video in ads and things like that, and we would get all these comments of people being like, "Oh my God, this is so fake.
因此，在这一点上，作为一种消费产品，我们花费了大量的时间和金钱来营销我们的产品，我们经常使用性能渠道和各种东西，但大约一年前，我们会在广告和类似的东西中运行人工智能视频，我们会得到人们的所有这些评论，“天哪，这太假了。
Don't show me this."
别给我看这个。”
Gaurav Misra: And around that time, the technology got just about good enough that suddenly, those comments stopped happening and suddenly, you could get performance that was even better than actually recording with a person because you could just try more things.
Gaurav Misra：大约在那个时候，技术变得足够好，突然之间，这些评论不再发生，突然之间，你可以获得比实际与人录音更好的性能，因为你可以尝试更多的事情。
You could just generate 30, 40 possibilities and one of them would win and it would win more than the one creative you can get from a person.
你可以产生 30 到 40 种可能性，其中一种会获胜，而且它会比你从一个人那里得到的一种创意更能赢得胜利。
And more interestingly, when you think about localization, you're going to go do that in every language.
更有趣的是，当您考虑本地化时，您将针对每种语言进行本地化。
Once you discover winning creative, now you have to go localize that in every market and rebuild it from scratch.
一旦你发现了获胜的创意，现在你必须在每个市场进行本地化并从头开始重建它。
Gaurav Misra: It's just a ton.
Gaurav Misra：这只是一吨。
And oftentimes it doesn't perform as well because it's been rethought essentially.
通常，它的表现不佳是因为它本质上经过了重新思考。
But we found that just translating it with AI was able to get performance almost as good as the original, in the original language.
但我们发现，仅用人工智能翻译它就能获得几乎与原始语言一样好的性能。
So this is going to fly to the entire market.
所以这将飞向整个市场。
I think wherever there's dollars to be made, saved, it is inevitable.
我认为只要有钱可以赚、可以省，这是不可避免的。
It will be consumed and it will very quickly be a lot of social media.
它将会被消费，并且很快就会成为大量的社交媒体。
Gaurav Misra: I mean, you could imagine a social network of the future where, and this is dystopian by the way, so watch out.
Gaurav Misra：我的意思是，你可以想象未来的社交网络，顺便说一句，这是反乌托邦的，所以要小心。
You could imagine a social network of the future where all content is generated.
您可以想象未来的社交网络，其中所有内容都是生成的。
None of the people are real.
没有一个人是真实的。
I mean, the algorithm isn't tailoring whose content to show you, but it's purely generating content that is completely catered to you, with people and everything completely catered to you.
我的意思是，算法并不是定制谁的内容来向你展示，而是纯粹生成完全迎合你的内容，人和一切都完全迎合你。
I don't think it's out of the question.
我不认为这是不可能的。
It almost seems inevitable in a way, but that's not too far away, I think.
从某种程度上来说，这似乎是不可避免的，但我认为那并不是太遥远。
That's actually very possibly real in five years or something like that.
这实际上很可能在五年或类似的时间内成为现实。
Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm imagining, because it's hard to imagine a social network where it's people because usually we want to know who these people are.
Lenny Rachitsky：我在想象什么，因为很难想象一个社交网络里有人，因为我们通常想知道这些人是谁。
I don't care random sharing status updates, but I can see a TikTok that is all AI.
我不在乎随机分享状态更新，但我可以看到一个全是人工智能的 TikTok。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, just content tuned to your loves and interests.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，只是根据您的爱好和兴趣调整的内容。
Gaurav Misra: Yep.
高拉夫·米斯拉：是的。
Because do you know, you see a TikTok feed, you don't even know who's real or not today, right?
因为你知道吗，你看到 TikTok 的动态，你甚至不知道今天谁是真的还是假的，对吧？
It's not like we-
这不像我们——
Lenny Rachitsky: Right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：对。
That's how I would approach it.
我就是这样处理的。
I would just join TikTok and start uploading videos that are AI generated.
我会加入 TikTok 并开始上传人工智能生成的视频。
Lenny Rachitsky: And then build a whole network of that.
Lenny Rachitsky：然后建立一个完整的网络。
Oh my god, the future is wild.
天哪，未来是疯狂的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's go to failure corner.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我们进入失败角落。
Something that I try to do with this podcast is share moments where things didn't go well.
我尝试通过这个播客做的事情是分享事情进展不顺利的时刻。
There's all these stories of everything's going great all the time.
有所有这些一切都进展顺利的故事。
All this foundries killing it, building a billion-dollar company.
所有这些代工厂都杀死了它，建立了一家价值十亿美元的公司。
Oh, so awesome.
哦，太棒了。
But they don't know all the things that go wrong.
但他们并不知道所有出错的地方。
So let me ask you, is there a story you can share of when things didn't work out?
那么我想问你，当事情不顺利时，你有什么故事可以分享吗？
When you failed?
当你失败的时候？
Gaurav Misra: At the beginning of the company, we actually had a bunch of time where we spent figuring out what we wanted to do, and I think it's an unconventional story almost in a way because we started off the company, the first thing we did was build the Captions app.
Gaurav Misra：在公司成立之初，我们实际上花了很多时间来弄清楚我们想做什么，我认为这几乎在某种程度上是一个非传统的故事，因为我们刚成立公司时，我们做的第一件事就是构建字幕应用程序。
We launched the app.
我们推出了该应用程序。
That was the first thing we did.
这是我们做的第一件事。
Took two days to build it.
花了两天时间才搭建完成。
We put it out there and it immediately took off.
我们把它放在那里，它立即就起飞了。
It was absolutely shocking because I built it on a weekend.
这绝对令人震惊，因为我是在周末建造的。
We put it out there, I called my co-founder on Monday.
我们把它放在那里，我周一打电话给我的联合创始人。
I'm like, "It's at the top of the app store.
我想，“它位于应用商店的顶部。
We're getting like 600 videos a day."
我们每天收到大约 600 个视频。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Top of the app store, holy shit.
Lenny Rachitsky：应用商店的顶部，天啊。
Gaurav Misra: And we didn't do anything to enable that.
Gaurav Misra：我们没有采取任何措施来实现这一点。
It just happened on its own.
它只是自然发生的。
It was almost anti-climactic in a way because we thought it would be a lot more time spent figuring out the product before that would happen.
这在某种程度上几乎是反高潮的，因为我们认为在此之前需要花费更多的时间来弄清楚产品。
And so it felt like, "Wait, this can't be it, right?
所以感觉就像是，“等等，这不可能是这样，对吧？
It can't be this fast.
不可能这么快。
How did this happen?" So we got distracted because of that, because we were like, "Oh, okay.
这是怎么发生的？”所以我们因此而分心，因为我们就像，“哦，好吧。
Well, maybe ...
嗯，也许...
This is cool.
这很酷。
It'll work.
它会起作用的。
That's great, but we got to figure out what the product is."
这很好，但我们必须弄清楚产品是什么。”
Gaurav Misra: And so we spent at least a year, year and a half thinking about building social networks and all kinds of things when we should have been working on Captions because there was product market fit there.
Gaurav Misra：因此，我们花了至少一年、一年半的时间考虑建立社交网络和各种事情，而我们本应该致力于字幕，因为那里有适合的产品市场。
And how we figured that out is Captions was sitting on my personal account, so I wasn't checking that a lot.
我们是如何发现这一点的，因为字幕位于我的个人帐户上，所以我没有经常检查它。
About a year and a half into the company, as we were working on other projects and stuff, I went back to my personal account, just opened it, and I saw that there was $500,000 in there.
加入公司大约一年半后，当我们忙于其他项目和其他事情时，我回到我的个人账户，刚刚打开它，我看到里面有 50 万美元。
Gaurav Misra: I looked at a chart and it was just growing.
Gaurav Misra：我看了一张图表，它正在增长。
The revenue was just growing completely on its own.
收入完全靠自己增长。
No employees, no releases, no bug fixes, no customer support.
没有员工，没有发布，没有错误修复，没有客户支持。
There was like 2,000 open support tickets that were unanswered for a year and a half, and great reviews.
大约有 2,000 张公开的支持请求在一年半的时间里都没有得到答复，并且得到了很好的评价。
It's just going completely on its own.
它完全靠自己进行。
And so that was a clear sign to me.
这对我来说是一个明确的信号。
It was like, "Oh my God, you should have been working on that.
就像是，“天哪，你应该一直在这方面努力。
That product works."
该产品有效。”
Gaurav Misra: And so we immediately had a meeting.
Gaurav Misra：所以我们立即召开了会议。
I mean, it was tough to figure out what the right path was at that point because we'd invested so much time in other things as well, but reset, and we got back on the track with Captions, and literally as soon as we started releasing the first features into it, it blew up.
我的意思是，当时很难弄清楚什么是正确的道路，因为我们在其他事情上也投入了很多时间，但是重置后，我们又回到了字幕的正轨，实际上，当我们开始发布第一个功能时，它就爆炸了。
What looked like a vertical line at that time became a horizontal line, and the new vertical line was so vertical that the old vertical line became a horizontal line, essentially.
当时看起来像垂直线的东西变成了水平线，而新的垂直线是如此垂直，以至于旧的垂直线本质上变成了水平线。
And it's continued since then, which is crazy.
从那时起，这种情况就一直持续着，这太疯狂了。
So we basically wasted about a year and a half.
所以我们基本上浪费了大约一年半的时间。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that new way of thinking about a hockey stick moment where not only is it going vertical, but the rest of the chart is now just flat along the bottom of the axis.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这种思考曲棍球棒时刻的新方式，它不仅是垂直的，而且图表的其余部分现在只是沿着轴的底部平坦。
Lenny Rachitsky: For people that may not know what Captions is, I try to describe it at the beginning and we'll link to it and stuff, but basically, the reason you thought it was nothing is it just adds captions to a video that you record.
Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些可能不知道字幕是什么的人，我尝试从一开始就描述它，我们将链接到它和其他东西，但基本上，你认为它没什么的原因是它只是在你录制的视频中添加字幕。
Gaurav Misra: Exactly, yep.
高拉夫·米斯拉：没错，是的。
So I think we wanted ...
所以我想我们想要...
Our thought was we're going to build a social network, but first we got to build a creation tool for the social network.
我们的想法是要建立一个社交网络，但首先我们必须为社交网络建立一个创建工具。
And we knew that we wanted to use AI to create video, and it seemed obvious that, "Oh, speech to text, a solved problem, we should start with that." So that's why we decided to start with Captions because it was a solved problem at the time.
我们知道我们想使用人工智能来创建视频，而且很明显，“哦，语音到文本，一个已解决的问题，我们应该从这个开始。”这就是为什么我们决定从字幕开始，因为这在当时是一个已解决的问题。
What was funny is that once GPT and stuff started coming out, a lot of the things that were unsolved became solved very quickly.
有趣的是，一旦 GPT 之类的东西开始出现，很多未解决的问题很快就得到了解决。
So timing was almost perfect.
所以时机几乎是完美的。
Lenny Rachitsky: And that aligns to something you shared earlier.
Lenny Rachitsky：这与您之前分享的内容一致。
Just so many of these problems that were not yet solved are now possible, and the companies that are in the right place at the right time benefit greatly who've been just waiting for this part.
许多尚未解决的问题现在已经成为可能，而那些在正确的时间出现在正确的地点的公司将大大受益，而这些公司一直在等待这一部分。
Lenny Rachitsky: The other thing that I think is interesting about that story is you try to build a social network.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这个故事有趣的另一件事是你尝试建立一个社交网络。
I think it was around high schools and things like that.
我认为这是在高中和类似的事情周围。
As we've seen, it's very difficult to build a new social network.
正如我们所看到的，建立一个新的社交网络非常困难。
So let me just get your sense.
那么让我来了解一下你的感受。
Do you think it's possible for somebody to come around and build a new, the next Facebook, the next Snap, the next whatever?
你认为有人有可能回心转意并创建一个新的、下一个 Facebook、下一个 Snap 或下一个什么的吗？
Gaurav Misra: I think it's definitely possible.
Gaurav Misra：我认为这绝对有可能。
I do think ...
我确实认为...
Let me tell you something crazy, actually.
实际上，让我告诉你一些疯狂的事情。
The social network that we had at the time, we actually remove it from the app store, so it's not available anymore.
我们当时拥有的社交网络实际上已从应用程序商店中删除，因此它不再可用。
But til today, there are people, there are thousands of people that are using it, posting on it, and all the different things, which actually speaks to the power of the social network in a way.
但直到今天，还有人，有成千上万的人在使用它，在上面发帖，以及所有不同的东西，这实际上在某种程度上说明了社交网络的力量。
It is hard to create and hard to kill.
创造难，消灭也难。
I mean, I think X is actually a great example of that too.
我的意思是，我认为 X 实际上也是一个很好的例子。
A lot of movement happened there and it continues to work, I guess somehow.
那里发生了很多运动，而且我想不知何故它仍在继续发挥作用。
So testament to that.
所以证明了这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: The power of network effects, especially someone once described this so well, they're like Twitter/X.
Lenny Rachitsky：网络效应的力量，尤其是有人曾经对此进行过很好的描述，它们就像 Twitter/X。
They changed the brand, they changed the team building it.
他们改变了品牌，改变了构建品牌的团队。
They changed the URL.
他们更改了网址。
Like everything changed about it except the network effect of the people in it.
除了里面的人的网络效应之外，一切都发生了变化。
Lenny Rachitsky: I just saw a story that they're making billions of dollars.
Lenny Rachitsky：我刚刚看到一个故事，说他们赚了数十亿美元。
He's actually turned it around.
他实际上扭转了局面。
It's actually becoming a really profitable company.
它实际上正在成为一家真正盈利的公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
It just came out the other day.
前几天刚出来的。
So Elon did it.
所以埃隆做到了。
Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
好了，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: What are two or three books that you have recommended most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Gaurav Misra: I have to say here that I actually don't read books.
Gaurav Misra：我不得不在这里说，我其实不读书。
It's actually something that I decided on purpose where I decided I don't want to build my skill in reading, and I want to build it in listening and watching instead, because I think that's the future.
这实际上是我故意决定的，我决定不想在阅读中培养我的技能，而我想在听和看中培养它，因为我认为这就是未来。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love how intentional that is, and I love how it's a really cool way of saying, I don't read books.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这是有意为之的，我喜欢用一种很酷的方式来表达“我不读书”。
The future isn't reading, but I love that you have books behind you, so .
未来不是读书，但我喜欢你身后有书，所以……
Gaurav Misra: didn't read, they're back there.
Gaurav Misra：没读过，他们就在那儿。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's funny.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这很有趣。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
I want to ask more questions, but I'm going to keep going.
我想问更多问题，但我会继续问下去。
Lightning around.
周围闪电。
Speaking of watching and listening, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?
说到观看和聆听，您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Gaurav Misra: I like Silo and Severance.
Gaurav Misra：我喜欢 Silo 和 Severance。
I mean, obviously, I think everyone's watching these.
我的意思是，显然，我认为每个人都在看这些。
There's a book around Silo too.
还有一本关于筒仓的书。
Lenny Rachitsky: I read that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我读到了。
I read all of them.
我读了所有这些。
There's three of them.
他们一共有三个。
Lenny Rachitsky: It sucks to watch the show because you know all the tricks that are about to happen, and I'm just like, "Why am I watching this?
Lenny Rachitsky：看这个节目很糟糕，因为你知道所有即将发生的戏法，而我只是想，“我为什么要看这个？
I know where this will go.
我知道这会去哪里。
Gaurav Misra: Yeah.
高拉夫·米斯拉：是的。
I mean, for what it's worth, it does seem like the show is going on a slightly different path.
我的意思是，就其价值而言，这部剧似乎正在走一条略有不同的道路。
Lenny Rachitsky: It is.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
That was also what annoyed me.
这也是让我恼火的地方。
Just like, "What the heck?
就像，“到底是什么？
This is made up.
这是编出来的。
All is made up shit." I don't like that when I watch the show.
一切都是胡编乱造的。”当我看这个节目时，我不喜欢这样。
So two reasons I'm not watching it but .
所以我不看它有两个原因。
Gaurav Misra: Don't worry about it.
高拉夫·米斯拉：别担心。
I didn't actually read the book.
我实际上没有读过这本书。
My wife read the book and then she told me the story.
我妻子读了这本书，然后她给我讲了这个故事。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，好的。
I was worried.
我很担心。
I was worried.
我很担心。
Okay, cool, and Severance.
好吧，酷，还有遣散费。
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
I love Severance.
我爱遣散费。
Lenny Rachitsky: Next question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like?
您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
Gaurav Misra: My favorite product, honestly, is Linear.
Gaurav Misra：说实话，我最喜欢的产品是 Linear。
I'm not going to lie, just because it's so well-designed and it's so easy to use.
我不会撒谎，只是因为它设计精良并且易于使用。
I also like Superhuman.
我也喜欢超人。
I mean, these are obvious answers, but I do use these things every day and it's hard to create products that you use every day and don't hate.
我的意思是，这些都是显而易见的答案，但我确实每天都使用这些东西，很难创造出你每天使用且不讨厌的产品。
So props for them.
所以为他们提供道具。
Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。
I haven't announced this on the podcast yet, but this is a good time, whoever's listening right now, is I just launched a bundle where if you become a paid subscriber to my newsletter, you get, listen to this, a year free of Linear and Superhuman and Notion and Granola, which is incredible AI app for note-taking and Perplexity, Perplexity Pro.
我还没有在播客上宣布这一点，但这是一个好时机，无论现在谁在听，我刚刚推出了一个捆绑包，如果你成为我的时事通讯的付费订阅者，你将获得一年免费的 Linear 和 Super human 以及 Notion 和 Granola，这是一个令人难以置信的人工智能应用程序，用于记笔记和 Perplexity、Perplexity Pro。
Lenny Rachitsky: $2,000 in value for the price of my newsletter, 200 bucks, going to that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我的时事通讯的价格是 2,000 美元，200 美元，就这样。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's an unbelievable deal, and it's a no-brainer at this point to buy a subscription, but this isn't an ad for my newsletter.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一笔令人难以置信的交易，此时购买订阅是理所当然的事情，但这不是我的时事通讯的广告。
I'll keep going.
我会继续前进。
Lenny Rachitsky: Next question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often find yourself coming back to, sharing with friends and family in work or in life?
您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常在工作或生活中与朋友和家人分享？
Gaurav Misra: I actually learned this because someone else told me that I keep repeating this thing, but I have this framework of how I want to operate at work, basically.
Gaurav Misra：我实际上学到了这一点，因为其他人告诉我，我一直在重复这件事，但基本上，我有一个我想要如何在工作中运作的框架。
Right?
对吗？
I think I love to compete and to win at the end of the day.
我想我喜欢竞争并最终获胜。
And I think that to win, you have to be the best.
我认为要想获胜，你必须是最好的。
But I also think the easiest way to be the best is to be the first, and that actually is key.
但我也认为成为最好的最简单的方法就是成为第一，这实际上是关键。
Lenny Rachitsky: And so is the motto the easiest way?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么座右铭是最简单的方法吗？
Is that the-
那是不是——
Gaurav Misra: That's it.
高拉夫·米斯拉：就是这样。
The easiest way to be the best is to be first.
成为最好的最简单的方法就是成为第一。
Lenny Rachitsky: Be the first.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：成为第一个。
Interesting.
有趣。
Okay.
好的。
I have to resist following threads here because I want to make this lightning round.
我必须抵制在这里关注线程，因为我想让这个闪电般的回合。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Final question, just for fun.
最后一个问题，只是为了好玩。
What's the coolest, most wild AI video you've seen recently?
你最近看过最酷、最狂野的AI视频是什么？
Is there one that comes to mind of like, "Wow, that was something"?
是否有一个人会想到“哇，那是一件事”？
Gaurav Misra: I mean, honestly, I got to say the OmniHuman stuff was pretty cool.
Gaurav Misra：我的意思是，老实说，我不得不说 OmniHuman 的东西非常酷。
Lenny Rachitsky: The ByteDance video that we talked about.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们谈到的字节跳动视频。
Gaurav Misra: Yeah, exactly.
高拉夫·米斯拉：是的，完全正确。
I mean, the broccoli talking.
我的意思是，西兰花会说话。
I don't know if you saw that one.
我不知道你是否见过那个。
There was a little broccoli delivering a little speech.
有一颗小西兰花正在发表简短的讲话。
Gaurav Misra: Yeah, it looked like it was animated by an animator.
Gaurav Misra：是的，看起来像是由动画师制作的动画。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just imagine being a kid these days and just seeing stuff like that.
Lenny Rachitsky：想象一下现在还是个孩子时看到这样的东西。
Gaurav Misra: I think you're probably just used to it, right?
Gaurav Misra：我想你可能已经习惯了，对吧？
You're just like, this is just normal.
你就像，这很正常。
Lenny Rachitsky: Mm-hmm.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：嗯嗯。
It's just like we were saying, AGI is just going to come around.
就像我们说的，AGI 即将到来。
Lenny Rachitsky: All right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Cool.
酷。
What's for dinner?
晚餐吃什么？
Cool.
酷。
That's great.
太好了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Gaurav, this was incredible.
高拉夫，这太不可思议了。
It was so insightful on so many levels.
它在很多层面上都非常有洞察力。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you and what you're building if they want to learn more?
如果人们想了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您以及您正在构建的内容？
And then how can listeners be useful to you?
那么听众如何对你有用呢？
Gaurav Misra: Awesome.
高拉夫·米斯拉：太棒了。
Yeah, I mean, definitely find me on LinkedIn.
是的，我的意思是，一定可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。
That's where I live most of the time.
那是我大部分时间居住的地方。
My DMs are open, et cetera, et cetera.
我的私信是开放的，等等等等。
So feel free to send me a message.
请随时给我留言。
And I think what'll be useful, I mean, we're building out our early product and design team, so if AI video is interesting, if consumer apps are interesting, now's the time to join.
我认为什么是有用的，我的意思是，我们正在建立我们的早期产品和设计团队，所以如果人工智能视频很有趣，如果消费者应用程序很有趣，那么现在就是加入的时候了。
We're really small, early, we work together across the team, so there's going to be no better time to join, basically.
我们真的很小，很早，我们整个团队一起工作，所以基本上没有比这更好的加入时机了。
Lenny Rachitsky: And you get to ship a marketable feature every week.
Lenny Rachitsky：而且你每周都会发布一个有市场的功能。
Gaurav Misra: Exactly.
高拉夫·米斯拉：没错。
I mean, that's the PM's dream.
我的意思是，那是首相的梦想。
Think about it.
想一想。
Right?
对吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: The PM's dream.
Lenny Rachitsky：总理的梦想。
Yeah, I like that that's a filter.
是的，我喜欢这个过滤器。
The people that get excited about that, great fit.
对此感到兴奋的人们，非常适合。
The people that are stressed out by that, not the place to be.
那些因此而感到压力的人，而不是那个地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: So awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
All right.
好吧。
Gaurav, thank you so much for being here.
高拉夫，非常感谢你来到这里。
Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.
大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。