How Shopify builds a high-intensity culture | Farhan Thawar (VP and Head of Eng)
Farhan Thawar: If you do the hard path and it doesn't work, actually you still win because you've now done something hard.
Farhan Thawar：如果你选择了困难的道路并且不起作用，实际上你仍然获胜，因为你现在已经做了一些困难的事情。
You've probably worked with smart people.
您可能曾与聪明人一起工作过。
You've learned something along the way that is valuable.
一路上你学到了一些有价值的东西。
I meet lots of job seekers.
我遇到了很多求职者。
I go, what are you doing to try to find a job?
我走了，你想找工作做什么？
Are you really learning anything from sending out 10 resumes a day?
每天发10份简历真的能学到东西吗？
Why don't you look at the API Docs and build something?
为什么不看看 API 文档并构建一些东西呢？
Even if you don't get a job at Shopify, you've learned something.
即使您没有在 Shopify 找到工作，您也学到了一些东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: First, I want to talk about another theme, creating intensity in your organization.
Lenny Rachitsky：首先，我想谈谈另一个主题，即在组织中创造强度。
Farhan Thawar: Everyone says, "Oh yeah, work hard and do more hours when you're young, whatever." I'm like, "What if you just did more per minute?"
Farhan Thawar：每个人都说，“哦，是的，努力工作，年轻的时候多做点事，无论如何。”我想，“如果你每分钟做得更多怎么办？”
Lenny Rachitsky: The more I dig into the Shopify way working, the more fun stuff I never expected emerges.
Lenny Rachitsky：我越深入研究 Shopify 的工作方式，就会出现越多我意想不到的有趣的东西。
There's been a drive to delete code and simplify.
人们一直在努力删除代码并进行简化。
Farhan Thawar: We have a Delete Code Club.
Farhan Thawar：我们有一个删除代码俱乐部。
We can always almost find a million-plus lines of code to delete, which is insane.
我们几乎总能找到一百万多行代码要删除，这太疯狂了。
Lenny Rachitsky: I found this great quote from you, "Not everyone can look stupid in public over and over, but I believe it's my superpower."
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我从你那里发现了这句话，“不是每个人都能在公共场合一遍又一遍地显得愚蠢，但我相信这是我的超能力。”
Farhan Thawar: I have been in many situations with many sharp people who have said to me, that's the stupidest fucking question I've ever heard.
Farhan Thawar：我遇到过很多情况，很多尖锐的人对我说，这是我听过的最愚蠢的问题。
My goal there is not to annoy the person, but it's to understand the content.
我的目标不是惹恼对方，而是理解内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: I was looking at your LinkedIn and your career history, and I noticed that you've worked for a different billionaire every decade of your life.
Lenny Rachitsky：我查看了您的 LinkedIn 和您的职业经历，我注意到您每十年都会为不同的亿万富翁工作。
Farhan Thawar: They're mostly different people, but they're similar in one thing is that they haven't...
Farhan Thawar：他们大多是不同的人，但他们的相似之处在于他们没有......
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Farhan Thawar.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Farhan Thawar。
Farhan is Vice President and Head of Engineering at Shopify.
Farhan 是 Shopify 的副总裁兼工程主管。
Shopify is an incredibly interesting company because they have over 10,000 employees who are fully remote, and even though they were founded almost 20 years ago, they continue to operate with urgency, velocity and have very first principles, ways of thinking, which translates into them seeing record usage, blowing away their earnings calls just recently, and building a beloved product.
Shopify 是一家非常有趣的公司，因为他们拥有超过 10,000 名完全远程办公的员工，尽管他们成立已近 20 年，但他们仍然以紧迫、快速的方式运营，并拥有最初的原则和思维方式，这意味着他们看到了创纪录的使用率，在最近的财报电话会议上大放异彩，并打造了一款受人喜爱的产品。
A lot of this is thanks to Farhan, who in our conversation shares very specifically what he's done to maintain intensity and urgency within the engineering team.
这很大程度上要归功于 Farhan，他在我们的谈话中非常具体地分享了他为保持工程团队的强度和紧迫性所做的事情。
Including their meeting cadences, the counter-intuitive power of pair programming, how they run meetings, how they cancel meetings constantly and so much more.
包括他们的会议节奏、结对编程的反直觉力量、他们如何召开会议、他们如何不断取消会议等等。
He also shares his experience with indexing towards choosing the harder option when you have multiple options to choose from and why that ends up making your life easier.
他还分享了当您有多个选项可供选择时，通过索引来选择较难的选项的经验，以及为什么这最终会让您的生活变得更轻松。
Lenny Rachitsky: He also shares a bunch of great hiring advice and a bunch of hiring stories which are going to blow your mind.
Lenny Rachitsky：他还分享了一些很棒的招聘建议和一些会让你大吃一惊的招聘故事。
He also talks about their engineering intern program where they're going to hire over a thousand engineers just for their intern program in 2025.
他还谈到了他们的工程实习生计划，他们将在 2025 年为实习生计划雇用 1000 多名工程师。
I've had a lot of people on this podcast from Shopify, but that is for a very good reason because this company and its leaders have a lot to teach us about how to run an incredible business and build an incredible product.
我有很多人参加了 Shopify 的这个播客，但这是有充分理由的，因为这家公司及其领导者有很多东西可以教我们如何经营令人难以置信的业务和打造令人难以置信的产品。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you, Farhan Thawar.
接下来，我带你来，Farhan Thawar。
Farhan, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.
Farhan，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Lenny Rachitsky: As I was preparing for our conversation, I talked to a bunch of people that you've worked with over the years, and there's basically three themes that kept coming up over and over and over.
Lenny Rachitsky：当我准备我们的谈话时，我与一群多年来共事过的人进行了交谈，基本上有三个主题不断地反复出现。
One is hiring, two is creating intensity in your organization, and three is choosing the hard path.
一是招聘，二是在组织中创造强度，三是选择艰难的道路。
First of all, does that resonate?
首先，这是否引起共鸣？
Second of all, does it sound good to talk about these three themes in our time together?
其次，在我们共处的时代谈论这三个主题听起来不错吗？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, I mean, I have ideas on where all three of those things came from, and I think that it is something that if you looked back on my career, I've hit points on each of those things, but I don't think at the onset I knew that that's what I was doing, but it turns out in retrospect, that's what I ended up doing.
Farhan Thawar：是的，我的意思是，我对所有这三件事的来源都有想法，我认为如果你回顾我的职业生涯，我在每一件事上都达到了要点，但我不认为一开始我就知道这就是我在做的事情，但事后看来，这就是我最终所做的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Perfect, so this is the Steve Jobs.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：完美，这就是史蒂夫·乔布斯。
Everything looking backwards it all connects.
一切往后看，一切都是相互联系的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by DX.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目是 DX 为您带来的。
If you're an engineering leader or on a platform team, at some point your CEO will inevitably ask you for productivity metrics, but measuring engineering organizations is hard, and we can all agree that simple metrics like the number of PRs or commits doesn't tell the full story.
如果您是工程领导者或平台团队成员，在某些时候，您的首席执行官将不可避免地要求您提供生产力指标，但衡量工程组织很困难，而且我们都同意，像 PR 或提交数量这样的简单指标并不能说明全部情况。
That's where DX comes in.
这就是 DX 发挥作用的地方。
DX is an engineering intelligence solution designed by leading researchers, including those behind the DORA and SPACE frameworks.
DX 是由领先研究人员设计的工程智能解决方案，其中包括 DORA 和 SPACE 框架背后的研究人员。
It combines quantitative data from developer tools with qualitative feedback from developers to give you a complete view of engineering productivity and the factors affecting it.
它将开发人员工具的定量数据与开发人员的定性反馈相结合，让您全面了解工程生产力及其影响因素。
Learn why some of the world's most iconic companies like Etsy, Dropbox, Twilio, Vercel, and Webflow rely on DX.
了解为什么 Etsy、Dropbox、Twilio、Vercel 和 Webflow 等一些世界上最具标志性的公司依赖 DX。
Visit DX's website at getdx.com/Lenny.
请访问 DX 的网站 getdx.com/Lenny。
This episode is brought to you by Persona, the adaptable identity platform that helps businesses fight fraud, meet compliance requirements, and build trust.
本集由 Persona 为您带来，Persona 是一个适应性强的身份平台，可帮助企业打击欺诈、满足合规性要求并建立信任。
Lenny Rachitsky: While you're listening to this right now, how do you know that you're really listening to me, Lenny?
Lenny Rachitsky：当你现在正在听这个时，你怎么知道你真的在听我说话，Lenny？
These days it's easier than ever for fraudsters to steal PII, faces, and identities.
如今，欺诈者比以往任何时候都更容易窃取 PII、面孔和身份。
That's where Persona comes in.
这就是角色发挥作用的地方。
Persona helps leading companies like LinkedIn, Etsy, and Twilio securely verify individuals and businesses across the world.
Persona 帮助 LinkedIn、Etsy 和 Twilio 等领先公司安全地验证世界各地的个人和企业。
What sets Persona apart is its configurability.
Persona 的独特之处在于它的可配置性。
Every company has different needs depending on its industry, use cases, risk tolerance, and user demographics.
每家公司根据其行业、用例、风险承受能力和用户人口统计数据都有不同的需求。
That's why Persona offers flexible building blocks that allow you to build tailored collection and verification flows that maximize conversion while minimizing risks.
这就是为什么 Persona 提供灵活的构建模块，使您能够构建定制的收集和验证流程，从而最大限度地提高转化率，同时最大限度地降低风险。
Plus Persona's orchestration tools, automate your identity process so that you can fight rapidly shifting fraud and meet new waves of regulation.
再加上 Persona 的编排工具，可以自动化您的身份流程，以便您能够对抗快速变化的欺诈行为并满足新一波的监管要求。
Whether you're a startup or an enterprise business Persona has a plan for you.
无论您是初创公司还是大型企业，Persona 都有适合您的计划。
Learn more at withpersona.com'Lenny.
如需了解更多信息，请访问 withpersona.com'Lenny。
Again, that's with P-E-R-S-O-N-A.com/Lenny.
再说一遍，这是 P-E-R-S-O-N-A.com/Lenny。
Okay, so let's start by talking about the hard path.
好吧，让我们从艰难的道路开始吧。
Lenny Rachitsky: Advice that I've heard you share with people often is when they're trying to decide amongst a bunch of options is to choose the harder path because that makes life easier down the road.
Lenny Rachitsky：我听到你经常与人们分享的建议是，当他们试图在一堆选择中做出决定时，选择更困难的道路，因为这会让以后的生活更轻松。
Share this advice why it's so important, where you learned, where you developed that this is the right approach.
分享这个建议为什么如此重要，您在哪里学到的，您在哪里发展的，这是正确的方法。
Farhan Thawar: But the short version is that if you have a choice and you choose the easy thing and it works great.
Farhan Thawar：但简单来说，如果你有选择，并且选择简单的事情，那么效果会很好。
If you choose the hard thing and it works great, you did more work, but if it doesn't work and you chose the easy thing, you've actually not learned anything because you chose the...
如果你选择困难的事情并且效果很好，那么你就做了更多的工作，但是如果它不起作用并且你选择了简单的事情，那么你实际上没有学到任何东西，因为你选择了......
You haven't done a lot of work, you haven't probably worked with the smartest people because they're not usually around on the easy path, and what happens is you've gone through this exercise and now you're like, I've kind of lost.
你没有做很多工作，你可能没有与最聪明的人一起工作，因为他们通常不会走轻松的道路，而发生的事情是你已经完成了这个练习，现在你就像，我有点迷失了。
I lost the choice, or I was trying to do something, it didn't work out for me.
我失去了选择，或者我试图做某事，但它对我来说没有成功。
But if you do the hard path and it doesn't work, actually you still win because you've now done something hard.
但如果你选择了困难的道路并且不起作用，实际上你仍然获胜，因为你现在已经做了一些困难的事情。
You've probably worked with smart people, you've learned something along the way that is valuable, and I can give you a quick example.
您可能与聪明的人一起工作过，您一路上学到了一些有价值的东西，我可以给您一个简单的例子。
Farhan Thawar: So I meet lots of job seekers and they're like, I go, "What are you doing to try to find a job?" I'm like, "I'm sending out 10 resumes a day." I'm like, "Okay." That sounds kind of easy, and are you really learning anything from sending out 10 resumes a day?
Farhan Thawar：我遇到了很多求职者，他们会问我，“你在做什么来找工作？”我想，“我每天会发出 10 份简历。”我说：“好吧。”这听起来很简单，每天发送 10 份简历真的能学到什么东西吗？
Versus I would say to them, "Hey, you know all these companies you're interested in, Shopify might be one of them.
相反，我会对他们说：“嘿，你知道所有你感兴趣的公司，Shopify 可能就是其中之一。
Why don't you look at the API Docs and build something, build a Shopify app, build an admin extension, build something on top of Shopify." Even if you don't get a job at Shopify, which is maybe your goal, you've learned something, you've built something, you have things in your GitHub repo now and you can show people.
为什么不查看 API 文档并构建一些东西，构建一个 Shopify 应用程序，构建一个管理扩展，在 Shopify 之上构建一些东西。”即使你没有在 Shopify 找到工作（这可能是你的目标），你也已经学到了一些东西，你已经构建了一些东西，你现在在 GitHub 存储库中拥有了一些东西，你可以向人们展示。
You're learning about the product that might translate to a job you might get somewhere else.
您正在了解的产品可能会转化为您可能在其他地方找到的工作。
So I think that even though it's harder, right?
所以我认为即使这更难，对吗？
Of course, you can't every day build an app on a different platform.
当然，您不可能每天都在不同的平台上构建应用程序。
Farhan Thawar: Maybe you can once a day.
Farhan Thawar：也许你可以每天一次。
You will learn something in the hard path.
你会在艰难的道路上学到一些东西。
And the same thing happened to me in taking hard courses.
在我参加艰苦的课程时，同样的事情也发生在我身上。
I would get worse marks, but I ended up meeting smarter people in those courses because they were there for the same reason I was because the content was hard.
我会得到更差的分数，但我最终在这些课程中遇到了更聪明的人，因为他们在那里的原因和我一样，因为内容很难。
And so that's something that I've just realized in my life that if I do the hard thing and I just naturally tend towards doing that, I ended up doing...
所以这是我在生活中刚刚意识到的事情，如果我做了困难的事情并且我很自然地倾向于这样做，那么我最终会做......
I went to Waterloo and I did a minor in electrical engineering on top of computer science, and when I did my MBA, I did a minor in financial engineering because the smarter people were in that path and they're still my friends today.
我去了滑铁卢，除了计算机科学之外，我还辅修了电气工程，当我攻读 MBA 时，我辅修了金融工程，因为更聪明的人都在这条道路上，他们今天仍然是我的朋友。
Lenny Rachitsky: So building on the last point you just made, people could hear this and think, okay, if it's harder, that's going to be the right path.
Lenny Rachitsky：因此，基于您刚才提出的最后一点，人们可能会听到这一点并思考，好吧，如果它更难，那将是正确的道路。
Sometimes harder is still a bad idea.
有时更努力仍然是一个坏主意。
For example, joining a terrible company that's extremely frustrating to work at or building, I don't know, a house in a really dumb way, but it's just really hard.
例如，加入一家糟糕的公司，在这家公司工作非常令人沮丧，或者以一种非常愚蠢的方式建造一栋房子，我不知道，但这真的很难。
What else do you find is important to think about when you're thinking it's not just harder, but also XYZ should probably be true?
当您认为这不仅更难，而且 XYZ 可能应该是真的时，您发现还有哪些重要的事情需要考虑？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, one real one is of course the people, because I find that my path has always focused on trying to pick the best learning journey.
Farhan Thawar：是的，真正的一个因素当然是人，因为我发现我的道路始终专注于尝试选择最佳的学习旅程。
Where can I learn the most?
哪里可以学到最多的东西？
And for me, everyone's different.
对我来说，每个人都是不同的。
Some people might learn better from books or the domain they're in, but for me, I learn a lot from people, and so I try to put myself in those harder rooms on purpose.
有些人可能从书本或他们所在的领域学得更好，但对我来说，我从别人那里学到了很多东西，所以我故意把自己放在那些更难的房间里。
There was a time when I was doing my MBA in financial engineering, by the way, and I'm a tech guy and still a tech guy, and all these people were going into finance jobs.
顺便说一句，有一段时间我正在攻读金融工程 MBA，我是一名技术人员，现在仍然是一名技术人员，而所有这些人都从事金融工作。
Farhan Thawar: There was a point where somebody said to me, "Why are you in this class?" Because they knew that I was doing it for fun, and so it was because it was the learning journey.
Farhan Thawar：曾经有人对我说：“你为什么在这个班？”因为他们知道我这样做是为了好玩，所以这是因为这是一次学习之旅。
And so I would say a big part of it for me is yes, there's the how do you win even if you lose, because if it goes poorly, you can still come out of it with skills, but if you actually take the hard path, you'll have these intense working relationships with smart people that again will continue on in your life.
所以我想说，对我来说，其中很大一部分是，即使你输了，你如何才能获胜，因为如果情况不佳，你仍然可以凭借技能摆脱困境，但如果你真正走上艰难的道路，你将与聪明的人建立紧密的工作关系，这种关系将再次在你的生活中持续下去。
Farhan Thawar: And that also just forces you to be in this constant state of uncomfort by going into these rooms and saying, "I don't know anything," and it's harder.
Farhan Thawar：这也只会迫使你进入这些房间并说“我什么都不知道”，从而迫使你处于这种持续的不舒服状态，这会更难。
And I agree with you.
我同意你的观点。
You don't want to do dumb things like, oh, let's just do this thing in a dumb way.
你不想做一些愚蠢的事情，比如，哦，让我们以一种愚蠢的方式来做这件事吧。
That's not what I mean.
我不是这个意思。
I mean, let's try to do the hard thing that we can learn from.
我的意思是，让我们尝试做一些我们可以学习的困难的事情。
And by the way, it happens to be on the path.
顺便说一句，它恰好在路上。
It's just is it might take more manual work or it might not be the way most people do it, but we think we can learn more from that path.
只是这可能需要更多的手工工作，或者可能不是大多数人的做法，但我们认为我们可以从这条道路中学到更多。
Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of that, I found this great quote from you, "Not everyone can look stupid in public over and over, but I believe it's my superpower and I try to make it my whole team's superpower too."
Lenny Rachitsky：说到这一点，我发现了你的一句话，“不是每个人都能在公共场合一遍又一遍地显得愚蠢，但我相信这是我的超能力，我也努力让它成为我整个团队的超能力。”
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, I mean, it sounds funny, but again, I'm the one who's always trying super dumb things and sometimes they work, and even my wife hates that I try these things even at home, right?
Farhan Thawar：是的，我的意思是，这听起来很有趣，但我又是那个总是尝试超级愚蠢的事情的人，有时它们确实有效，甚至我的妻子也讨厌我即使在家里也尝试这些事情，对吧？
I'll just like, what's an example?
我只是想，有什么例子吗？
It might be a new washing machine and I might try some weird mode with some clothes, and I'm like, "Oh, you ruin the clothes." I'm like, okay.
它可能是一台新洗衣机，我可能会尝试一些奇怪的模式来处理一些衣服，然后我会说，“哦，你毁了衣服。”我想，好吧。
But now I know that this mode should not be used, but maybe I would've uncovered that there's some super fast, quick wash that I can do in 20 minutes that now saves us 40 minutes of wash time every single time we use the washing machine.
但现在我知道不应该使用这种模式，但也许我会发现有一些超级快速、快速的洗涤，我可以在 20 分钟内完成，现在每次使用洗衣机都可以节省 40 分钟的洗涤时间。
Farhan Thawar: So there's things like that, but I will ruin lots of clothes trying to do that, but the same at work.
Farhan Thawar：确实有类似的事情，但我会毁掉很多衣服，但在工作中也是如此。
We'll try things and sometimes it can lead to disaster, hopefully not, but you can imagine people trying to like, oh, let me try this new configuration of GCP and maybe we'll get some benefit, but maybe we'll take Shopify down.
我们会尝试一些事情，有时它可能会导致灾难，希望不会，但你可以想象人们会尝试喜欢，哦，让我尝试一下 GCP 的新配置，也许我们会得到一些好处，但也许我们会拿下 Shopify。
We don't want to do that.
我们不想这样做。
So you want to have some sort of guardrails.
所以你想要某种护栏。
But there is something around trying dumb things and saying dumb things.
但尝试愚蠢的事情和说愚蠢的事情是有道理的。
Half the time, by the way, when I say something dumb, people go, "I had the same question." They just were scared to say it.
顺便说一句，当我说一些愚蠢的话时，人们会说：“我也有同样的问题。”他们只是害怕说出来。
Lenny Rachitsky: So for folks that may want to, because I feel like this skill is so hard, but so important, being okay with failing, being okay with looking dumb, is there something you tell people to help them build this other than just like, I'm genetically good at this stuff?
Lenny Rachitsky：所以对于那些可能想要这样做的人来说，因为我觉得这项技能很难，但又很重要，接受失败，接受看起来很愚蠢，除了“我天生擅长这个东西”之外，你还有什么可以告诉人们来帮助他们建立这个技能吗？
What helped you become comfortable with being wrong and failing before you were a big shot exec where it's like, oh, he's fine.
在你成为一名大人物之前，是什么帮助你坦然接受错误和失败，就像，哦，他很好。
He knows what he's doing.
他知道自己在做什么。
Farhan Thawar: I don't know.
法尔汉·塔瓦：我不知道。
I mean, I kind of grew up working in retail and people come into the store, and then I would say, "Hey," and you're working on commission, and they're not always buying stuff, and if they don't buy it, you don't make any money.
我的意思是，我是在零售业长大的，人们走进商店，然后我会说，“嘿，”你是靠佣金工作的，他们并不总是买东西，如果他们不买，你就赚不到任何钱。
And so maybe just the fact of going up and forcing myself to talk to people and then trying to get them to, and maybe you spend an hour with a client and then they don't buy anything, but you're getting that reaction of a bunch of negatives, and all you have to do is say, okay, and just go to the next customer.
所以，也许只是上去强迫自己与人交谈，然后试图让他们说话，也许你花了一个小时和客户在一起，然后他们没有买任何东西，但你会得到一堆负面的反应，你所要做的就是说，好吧，然后去找下一个客户。
You can't really well on it and be like, oh my God, my whole day is ruined.
你不能真的做得很好，然后说，天哪，我的一整天都毁了。
But instead, you have to learn from that and say, "Okay, let me try this.
但相反，你必须从中学习并说：“好吧，让我试试这个。
Let me try that." And it's not easy, but it was a way to build up some confidence and people say, this telemarketing, or there's a bunch of things you can do to get a lot of rejection.
让我试试吧。”这并不容易，但这是建立信心的一种方式，人们说，这种电话营销，或者你可以做很多事情来得到很多拒绝。
Cold calling is another one, and that can lead you to actually building up resistance.
推销电话是另一种情况，这可能会导致你实际上增强抵抗力。
I don't know if I'm genetically better at it or not.
我不知道我的基因是否比我更擅长。
I just think that I literally don't care if I look dumb.
我只是觉得我根本不在乎我看起来是否愚蠢。
I've always said the dumb thing, I'm not doing things on purpose to get nos, which by the way, is part of some sales training, which is go and get 10 nos.
我总是说蠢话，我不是故意做事来获得否定的，顺便说一句，这是一些销售培训的一部分，那就是去获得 10 个否定。
But I haven't done that.
但我还没有这样做。
But I have been in many situations with many sharp people, business people, successful people who have said to me...
但我遇到过很多情况，与许多敏锐的人、商人、成功人士对我说过……
Turn around and said, "That's the stupidest fucking question I've ever heard." I've definitely had that happen to me.
转身说道：“这是我听过的最愚蠢的问题。”我肯定经历过这种事。
And I'm like, "All right, let's move on to the next question."
我说：“好吧，让我们继续下一个问题。”
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that attitude and I think that's key to it.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这种态度，我认为这是关键。
It's just bounce off of it and not be crumble and I think it's empowering for folks to hear from someone like you that has done so well that people tell you that is the dumbest question I've ever heard-
它只是反弹而不是崩溃，我认为人们听到像你这样做得很好的人的声音是有力量的，人们告诉你这是我听过的最愚蠢的问题-
Farhan Thawar: Yeah.
法尔汉·塔瓦：是的。
So how about this?
那么这个怎么样呢？
That I heard that's the dumbest fucking question.
我听说这是最愚蠢的问题。
And then recently I heard, I've already explained this to you three times because I kept asking and I didn't understand, and literally I got this message back saying, "I've already explained this to you three times." I'm like, "Okay, I still don't get it." So my goal there is not to annoy the person, but it's to understand the content.
然后最近我听说，我已经向你解释了三遍了，因为我一直在问，但我不明白，而我收到的信息实际上是：“我已经向你解释过三遍了。”我想，“好吧，我还是不明白。”所以我的目标不是惹恼别人，而是理解内容。
And actually, by the way, I say these were messages, I saved them.
事实上，顺便说一句，我说这些是消息，我保存了它们。
I literally screenshot it because I'm like, remember this?
我真的把它截图了，因为我想，还记得这个吗？
It doesn't matter.
没关系。
I'm trying to learn.
我正在努力学习。
Lenny Rachitsky: One more question along these lines.
Lenny Rachitsky：还有一个问题。
I was looking at your LinkedIn and your career history, and I noticed that you worked for a different billionaire every decade of your life.
我查看了你的 LinkedIn 和你的职业经历，我注意到你每十年都会为不同的亿万富翁工作。
So there's a guy named Joe Lemond in your twenties and Chamath in your thirties and Toby this decade, maybe yourself next decade, if things go well.
所以，有一个二十多岁的人叫乔·莱蒙德，三十多岁的查马斯，还有这个十年的托比，如果一切顺利的话，也许下一个十年就是你自己。
Other than what you've shared or maybe it is what you've shared, is there a thread across these three folks that have been really successful that you've learned from that maybe is consistent across them all or even just specific to each one?
除了你所分享的，或者也许就是你所分享的，这三个真正成功的人之间是否有一条线索，你可以从中学到，也许他们所有人都一致，甚至只是针对每个人？
Farhan Thawar: It's interesting because again, this is looking back, you're like, wait a sec, I didn't plan it this way.
Farhan Thawar：这很有趣，因为再次回顾，你会说，等一下，我并没有这样计划。
There's no way you could plan it, right?
你根本不可能计划好，对吧？
I'm going to work for a different billionaire every decade.
每十年我都会为不同的亿万富翁工作。
That's not how it works but they're similar.
这不是它的工作原理，但它们很相似。
They're mostly different people, but they're similar in one thing is that they have an irrational view of what the world should look like over the next decade or so.
他们大多是不同的人，但他们的相似之处在于，他们对未来十年左右的世界应该是什么样子有非理性的看法。
They're very long-term thinkers, very rational in that they'll look and say, "Hey, in 10, 15, 20, 25 years, this is what the world's going to look like." And I'm not good at seeing that vision, but I'm good at trying to move towards that vision 1% a week.
他们是非常长远的思考者，非常理性，因为他们会看着并说，“嘿，10年、15年、20年、25年后，这就是世界将会是什么样子。”我不擅长看到这个愿景，但我擅长每周以 1% 的速度朝着这个愿景前进。
And so the melding of the two, I know where I'm good and I'm good at pushing the ball forward.
因此，两者的融合，我知道自己擅长什么，并且擅长将球向前推进。
And if they're good at the long-term vision, we can both align to say, "You're good at this thing.
如果他们擅长长期愿景，我们都可以一致说：“你擅长这件事。
I'm good at this thing.
我很擅长这件事。
Why don't we merge forces?"
为什么我们不联合力量呢？”
Farhan Thawar: And so that is something that has resonated with me is like, how do I find these irrational all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
Farhan Thawar：所以这引起了我的共鸣，就像我如何发现这些不合理的一切进步都取决于不合理的人。
How do I pair with these people because I'm altogether too reasonable and there's no way for me to become unreasonable, and so I have to merge with these people.
我该如何和这些人配对，因为我实在是太讲道理了，我不可能变得不讲理，所以我必须和这些人融为一体。
And so that is again, something that I specifically have sought out.
这又是我特别寻找的东西。
And even when I was starting my own company in 2015, I actually sat down and wrote a list of all the unreasonable people that I knew in Toronto, and I went down the list and met every single one of these entrepreneurs to figure out are we API compatible and could I work with them?
甚至当我在 2015 年创办自己的公司时，我实际上坐下来写了一份我在多伦多认识的所有不讲道理的人的清单，然后我沿着清单逐一会见了这些企业家中的每一位，以弄清楚我们是否兼容 API 以及我可以与他们合作吗？
And I ended up picking one of them and starting a company.
我最终选择了其中之一并创办了一家公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is an amazing story.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个了不起的故事。
So first of all, I just love this insight that being aware of this is not a superpower of mine and I'm not going to try to build it.
首先，我喜欢这种洞察力，即意识到这一点并不是我的超能力，而且我不会尝试建立它。
I'm going to find someone to merge with, and connect your APIs together and be the person that builds it, not the person that envisions what to build.
我将找到一个人来合并，并将您的 API 连接在一起，并成为构建它的人，而不是设想构建什么的人。
I think that's awesome because a lot of people...
我认为这太棒了，因为很多人...
I need to get good at all these things.
我需要擅长所有这些事情。
I need to become the best at vision and strategy and execution and collaboration and then all these things.
我需要成为最擅长愿景、战略、执行和协作以及所有这些方面的人。
And so I think alone, this isn't really interesting instead it's just recognize your strengths and weaknesses and double down on your strengths.
所以我认为，这并不是很有趣，而是认识到你的优势和劣势，并加倍发挥你的优势。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, it sounds funny, but me and you talked about it that a framework I wrote down, which I tweet out, me writing that down changed how I picked jobs forever, right?
Farhan Thawar：是的，这听起来很有趣，但是我和你谈到了我写下的一个框架，我在推特上发布了它，我写下来永远改变了我选择工作的方式，对吗？
Because I had this lull after my first job in between where I was trying to figure out why nothing felt as exciting as my first job.
因为在我的第一份工作之后，我有一段平静的时间，我试图弄清楚为什么没有什么比我的第一份工作更令人兴奋的了。
And it turns out that it took me to sit down and be like, what do I actually care about?
事实证明，我需要坐下来思考，我真正关心的是什么？
And people can get confused.
人们可能会感到困惑。
I get confused all the time, by the way, by things that are not on my framework.
顺便说一下，我总是对那些不属于我的框架的东西感到困惑。
So for example, a good one, title, company, money, all these things can confuse you because you could have somebody say recruiter messages you and says, "Hey, by the way, here's a new job and here's the compensation." You're like, "Oh my God, this is exciting." And if you don't have a written down framework of the things you actually care about, it's very hard to be distracted.
例如，一份好的工作、头衔、公司、金钱，所有这些东西都会让你感到困惑，因为你可能会听到有人说招聘人员给你发消息说：“嘿，顺便说一句，这是一份新工作，这是报酬。”你会说，“天哪，这太令人兴奋了。”如果你没有写下你真正关心的事情的框架，就很难分心。
So very hard not to be distracted.
所以很难不分心。
You get distracted by that.
你会因此分心。
So instead, I look at the framework and go, does this align with my framework?
因此，我会查看框架并思考，这与我的框架相符吗？
Right?
正确的？
Farhan Thawar: Actually to the point of, I actually sent my framework to a recruiter one time and I said, "Hey, this thing," because they kept going back and forth to me and I go, "Hey, this doesn't align with my framework." So it really saves me time from not being distracted, but it also forced me to think about every year I can reevaluate what I'm doing and look at the framework and say, "Is this true to my values?" Now, my wife will say this, that I'm like a robot.
Farhan Thawar：事实上，有一次我把我的框架发送给了一位招聘人员，我说，“嘿，这个东西，”因为他们不断地来回找我，我说，“嘿，这与我的框架不符。”所以它确实节省了我不分心的时间，但它也迫使我每年都思考我可以重新评估我正在做的事情并查看框架并说：“这符合我的价值观吗？”现在，我的妻子会说，我就像一个机器人。
When I realize that my framework is being violated, I will resign instantly and I've done that before.
当我意识到我的框架被违反时，我会立即辞职，我以前也这样做过。
So without even having another job or anything, I just go like, oh, my framework is being violated and then resign.
因此，即使没有另一份工作或任何其他东西，我只是想，哦，我的框架被违反了，然后辞职。
There's this thing where I know what I enjoy working on, and that framework helps me find it.
我知道我喜欢做什么，而这个框架可以帮助我找到它。
And so I encourage everyone, anybody looking for a job I always say, "Write down a framework.
因此，我鼓励每个人，任何正在寻找工作的人，我总是说，“写下一个框架。
You can use mine as inspiration, but figure out what you care about and make sure that what you're working on lines up with that."
你可以用我的作为灵感，但要弄清楚你关心什么，并确保你正在做的事情与之相符。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And this framework is the questions to ask about where to go work.
Lenny Rachitsky：这个框架是关于去哪里工作的问题。
That's your framework.
这就是你的框架。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
We'll link to that so folks can check it out.
我们将链接到该链接，以便人们可以查看。
The example of you resigning when it didn't meet your framework, is that a story you're up for sharing?
你因不符合你的框架而辞职的例子，是你愿意分享的故事吗？
Is there something to learn from that?
有什么值得学习的地方吗？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, sure.
法尔汉·塔瓦：是的，当然。
So this happened when I was at my previous, a few companies ago, we were running a mobile company called Xtreme Labs.
这件事发生在我在前几家公司工作时，我们经营着一家名为 Xtreme Labs 的移动公司。
That was the one that Chamath was the major investor in and so we worked with him directly.
查马斯是这家公司的主要投资者，因此我们直接与他合作。
And what I realized was...
我意识到的是......
And so that company was amazing.
所以那家公司很棒。
We worked on it for many years.
我们为此努力了很多年。
It was a mobile app development company.
这是一家移动应用程序开发公司。
We got to work on mobile apps for the biggest brands in the world, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Vine, the NFL, NBA, Bloomberg, Slack, you name it we worked on those mobile apps, and this is right when the iPhone and Android were really gaining steam in '09 to 2013 era.
我们为世界上最大的品牌开发移动应用程序，Facebook、Twitter、Instagram、Vine、NFL、NBA、彭博社、Slack，凡是你能想到的，我们都在开发这些移动应用程序，而这正是 iPhone 和 Android 在 09 年到 2013 年真正获得发展的时候。
And then we eventually got acquired by Pivotal.
然后我们最终被 Pivotal 收购。
And over time, my role at Pivotal, Pivotal, and Pivotal Labs changed from, hey, I was running the biggest office in the world.
随着时间的推移，我在 Pivotal、Pivotal 和 Pivotal Labs 的角色发生了变化，嘿，我管理着世界上最大的办公室。
I was running the biggest pair programming office.
我负责管理最大的结对编程办公室。
Farhan Thawar: I'm a big fan of pair programming to one in which we were really trying to attach consulting to the product.
Farhan Thawar：我非常喜欢结对编程，在结对编程中我们确实试图将咨询附加到产品中。
And I ended up being a field CTO, which really, I mean it was fun to learn about that world, but it was different than what I was doing.
我最终成为了一名现场 CTO，实际上，我的意思是了解这个世界很有趣，但这与我所做的不同。
And so if I looked across my framework, it was violating all the things that I was trying to work.
因此，如果我审视我的框架，就会发现它违反了我试图做的所有事情。
I wasn't working with the smartest people anymore.
我不再与最聪明的人一起工作。
I was on IC.
我在IC上。
I wasn't learning as much as I could be learning.
我没有学到我能学到的那么多。
And so I wasn't on this and I wasn't having a lot of impact.
所以我没有参与其中，也没有产生很大的影响。
I was like, oh, wait a sec, this is completely not aligned.
我当时想，哦，等一下，这完全不对齐。
And then I just told the team, "Hey, I plan on resigning." And that, by the way, led to great other things because I'm an investor in new companies that have spun out from there and it was a great experience.
然后我就告诉团队，“嘿，我打算辞职。”顺便说一句，这还带来了其他一些伟大的事情，因为我是从那里衍生出来的新公司的投资者，这是一次很棒的经历。
I'm just saying it at the time, lended me to say, "Hey, you're not actually focused on the right things."
我当时只是这么说，让我说，“嘿，你实际上并没有专注于正确的事情。”
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to Xtreme Labs.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到 Xtreme Labs。
I know there's other stories there that are interesting, but first I want to talk about another theme of things that people often raised when I asked them about you.
我知道那里还有其他有趣的故事，但首先我想谈谈当我向人们询问有关您的情况时人们经常提出的另一个主题。
And this one is intensity, and it's specifically creating intensity in your organization and the value of that, the power of that.
这就是强度，它专门在你的组织中创造强度以及它的价值和力量。
I've seen that the way you describe this and I love is how do you expend more kilojoules per hour versus spend more hours on work.
我看到你描述这一点并且我喜欢的方式是你如何每小时消耗更多的千焦耳而不是花更多的时间在工作上。
So talk about just why intensity, first of all, is so important to an organization.
因此，首先谈谈为什么强度对于组织如此重要。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah.
法尔汉·塔瓦：是的。
So I think there's a few things.
所以我认为有几件事。
One, I have this fundamental belief that one hour is one hour.
第一，我有一个基本信念：一小时就是一小时。
It's the same hour.
这是同一个时间。
If you spend an hour or I spend an hour, it's the same time that goes by.
如果你花一个小时或者我花一个小时，那么时间就过去了。
And if I just expend more calories in that hour.
如果我在那个小时消耗更多的卡路里。
Let's say we both work nine to five.
假设我们都朝九晚五工作。
If I can just get more done in the nine-to-five, we have both...
如果我能在朝九晚五的时间里完成更多工作，我们就都……
The time has elapsed the same for us, but I just got more done.
我们的时间流逝得一样，但我只是完成了更多的事情。
And that allows me, of course, then I'd be like, "Hey, I'm going to take my kid to soccer and do other stuff." We can still do the same things out of work, but during work, I just want to try to get as much done as possible during the time versus expanding the time and I can give you an example.
当然，这允许我，然后我会说，“嘿，我要带我的孩子去踢足球并做其他事情。”我们仍然可以在工作之外做同样的事情，但是在工作期间，我只想尝试在时间里完成尽可能多的事情，而不是延长时间，我可以给你举一个例子。
I used to work at a company where it was like I worked 12 hours a day, but I was playing foosball in the middle of the day.
我以前在一家公司工作，每天工作12个小时，但中午我会打足球。
Farhan Thawar: And then we'd go for a coffee break and you do these things.
Farhan Thawar：然后我们去喝咖啡休息一下，然后你就做这些事情。
And of course, the time expanded to 12 hours versus trying to compress into that eight-hour day.
当然，与试图压缩为每天 8 小时相比，时间延长到了 12 小时。
And pair programming is a great example because, so it's such an intense activity.
结对编程就是一个很好的例子，因为它是一项非常激烈的活动。
Two people on one machine, you can get so much done when two people are working together, not being distracted by the internet and distractions, and just focus on writing the solution to the problem at hand.
两个人在一台机器上，当两个人一起工作时，你可以完成很多事情，而不是被互联网和干扰分散注意力，而只是专注于编写手头问题的解决方案。
And it's so tiring that usually when people switch on to pair programming, they sleep 10 to 12 hours a night the first few nights because it's so intense.
而且这太累了，通常当人们开始结对编程时，他们在最初的几个晚上每晚要睡 10 到 12 个小时，因为它太紧张了。
You're working so hard.
你工作太辛苦了。
But for me, that intensity actually leads to extraordinary outcomes even if you don't have to put in more hours.
但对我来说，即使你不需要投入更多时间，这种强度实际上也会带来非凡的结果。
I think most people, you probably hear this all the time, everyone says, "Oh yeah, work hard and do more hours when you're young, whatever."
我想大多数人，你可能一直听到这句话，每个人都说，“哦，是的，努力工作，年轻的时候多做点事，无论如何。”
Farhan Thawar: I'm like, what if you just did more per minute?
Farhan Thawar：我想，如果你每分钟做得更多怎么办？
Like quickly get through things.
喜欢快速解决事情。
I think there's another unintuitive fact is that people who are really good can actually output high-quality collateral quickly.
我认为还有一个不直观的事实是，真正优秀的人实际上可以快速输出高质量的抵押品。
So take a person who is good and extremely good, the extremely good person can actually get a lot of output in a short amount of time, and the person who's good might take longer.
所以拿一个优秀和极其优秀的人来说，优秀的人实际上可以在短时间内获得大量的产出，而优秀的人可能需要更长的时间。
I think there's a time variance there that people don't think about.
我认为人们没有考虑到时间差异。
So you can not drop the quality too much, but get the time down by 2X, 3X, right?
所以你不能把质量下降太多，但可以把时间缩短 2 倍、3 倍，对吗？
Parkinson's Law of scale instead of, if I give you an hour to do something, a really good person can get a high-quality output in one hour.
帕金森规模定律而不是，如果我给你一个小时做某事，一个真正优秀的人可以在一小时内获得高质量的产出。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk about how you create an org that operates this way, but specifically, you just mentioned pair programming.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈您如何创建一个以这种方式运作的组织，但具体来说，您刚刚提到了结对编程。
I know that's one of your favorite tools.
我知道这是您最喜欢的工具之一。
Talk about why this is so powerful when you recommended...
当您推荐时，请谈谈为什么它如此强大......
I think as an outside observer, it's like two engineers on the same code.
我认为作为一个外部观察者，这就像两个工程师在编写相同的代码。
Why wouldn't we do things half as fast?
为什么我们不能以一半的速度做事呢？
Talk about just why you're a big fan of pair programming specifically.
谈谈为什么你特别喜欢结对编程。
Farhan Thawar: It is the most underutilized management tool in engineering, bar none.
Farhan Thawar：它是工程领域最未被充分利用的管理工具，没有之一。
It is just not used as much as it could be.
它只是没有得到尽可能多的使用。
So pair programming, for those who don't know, it's two people on one computer.
结对编程，对于那些不知道的人来说，就是两个人在一台计算机上。
So two keyboards, two mics, two monitors, but one computer, they work together and if it's remote, they use it.
因此，两个键盘、两个麦克风、两个显示器，但一台计算机，它们一起工作，如果是远程的，它们就使用它。
You can use a tool like tuple, which we use, and you can just remotely be on one computer, and you're totally right.
您可以使用我们使用的 tuple 这样的工具，并且您可以远程使用一台计算机，您是完全正确的。
The famous tweet about pair programming is, wait a sec, we have two engineers on one computer, won't they write half as much code?
关于结对编程的著名推文是，等一下，我们有两个工程师在一台计算机上，他们不会编写一半的代码吗？
And the answer is, oh, no, no, they'll write even less than that because it's not about lines of code.
答案是，哦，不，不，他们会写得更少，因为这与代码行无关。
The throughput limiter is not hands-on keyboard.
吞吐量限制器不是手动键盘。
It's not like we're both sitting there and the limiter is like us trying to get through the keystrokes onto the screen.
这不像我们都坐在那里，限制器就像我们试图通过屏幕上的按键。
Farhan Thawar: The limiter is where is the good elegant solution?
Farhan Thawar：限制因素是好的、优雅的解决方案在哪里？
How do we think through the problem and build the right solution for the problem at hand?
我们如何思考问题并为当前问题建立正确的解决方案？
Tobi famously built a lot of Shopify paired programming, and what he would do is he would actually set a timer and him and the CTO Cody would pair program for one hour.
Tobi 因构建了大量 Shopify 结对编程而闻名，他所做的就是设置一个计时器，然后他和 CTO Cody 结对编程一小时。
And if they did not finish the problem in one hour, they would delete all the code and they would keep the tests and they would start over.
如果他们在一小时内没有完成问题，他们将删除所有代码并保留测试并重新开始。
And then what their thinking was, if we were not able to articulate and write the code for this feature in one hour, we must be on the wrong design.
然后他们的想法是，如果我们无法在一小时内阐明并编写此功能的代码，那么我们的设计一定是错误的。
We must be building the wrong thing and so they delete all the code, kept the tests, and then wrote it again.
我们一定构建了错误的东西，所以他们删除了所有代码，保留了测试，然后重新编写。
And sometimes he'd be over by one minute and he would still delete the code and start over because his thinking was the right elegant solution should be able to be written in one hour.
有时他会在一分钟内结束，但他仍然会删除代码并重新开始，因为他的想法是正确的优雅解决方案应该能够在一小时内编写出来。
Farhan Thawar: And so pair programming, I mean, that's an extreme version of it, but even at Pivotal Labs, if your pair was sick that day and you wrote a bunch of code, the strong version is your pair would come in the next day, delete all the code that you wrote, and then you'd write it again the next day.
Farhan Thawar：我的意思是，结对编程是它的一个极端版本，但即使在 Pivotal Labs，如果你的搭档那天生病了，而你写了一堆代码，最强大的版本是你们的搭档第二天就会来，删除你写的所有代码，然后你第二天再写一遍。
And again, what better time to rewrite code than right after you've written it because you now know the problem domain?
再说一遍，还有什么比在你现在知道问题域之后立即重写代码更好的时机呢？
And by the way, it sounds like a waste of time.
顺便说一句，这听起来像是浪费时间。
It sounds like I'm just deleting code but the reason is that code lives a long time.
听起来好像我只是删除代码，但原因是代码的寿命很长。
Code is a liability and the right solution, the usually shorter lines, more elegant solution tends to appear after you've done a bunch of pathfinding.
代码是一种责任，也是正确的解决方案，通常在完成大量寻路之后，往往会出现更短的行、更优雅的解决方案。
And the only way to do that pathfinding is start and then delete and then start and be like, oh, no.
进行寻路的唯一方法是启动，然后删除，然后启动，然后说，哦，不。
Farhan Thawar: Now I know.
法尔汉·塔瓦：现在我知道了。
Delete.
删除。
And it's super hard to delete, by the way, because we're humans and we have this sunk cost fallacy, so it's hard to delete.
顺便说一句，删除它非常困难，因为我们是人类，我们有这种沉没成本谬误，所以它很难删除。
But if you can do that, you will actually land upon a much, much better solution.
但如果你能做到这一点，你实际上会找到一个更好的解决方案。
And of course, pair programming has high, high rates of learning because you're just sitting beside...
当然，结对编程的学习率非常高，因为你只是坐在旁边......
You're not only whether it's tuple or remote or directly, you learn keystrokes and you learn how somebody thinks about a problem.
您不仅可以了解元组、远程或直接的信息，还可以了解击键以及某人如何思考问题。
You go back and forth on the talking, and yes, you will write probably less code, but you will move faster along the path of delivering value for your customers than you would if you did it on your own.
你会反复讨论，是的，你可能会编写更少的代码，但与你自己做相比，你会在为客户提供价值的道路上走得更快。
And there's all these studies that show happiness is higher, knowledge transfer is higher, less silos, intensity is higher, all the things.
所有这些研究都表明幸福感更高、知识转移更高、孤岛更少、强度更高等等。
And at a price of 20% or something of what you would normally do.
并且价格为您通常价格的 20% 或其他价格。
Farhan Thawar: The analogy I have is the underhanded free throw in basketball, statistically known to sink more baskets, but looks dumb and nobody does it.
Farhan Thawar：我的比喻是篮球中的低手罚球，据统计，这种罚球可以投进更多的篮子，但看起来很愚蠢，没有人这样做。
Literally, Shaquille O'Neal, I'm not that big a basketball fan, but I read this about Shaquille O'Neal, who's a Hall of Famer, and they said, "Why don't you throw underhand?" Because he was notoriously bad at free throws and he goes, "It looks dumb." Even though he's paid millions of dollars a year to do this thing.
从字面上看，沙奎尔·奥尼尔，我不是一个篮球迷，但我读到了有关沙奎尔·奥尼尔的文章，他是名人堂成员，他们说，“你为什么不低手投球呢？”因为他的罚球技术是出了名的差，他说，“这看起来很愚蠢。”尽管他每年为这件事付出了数百万美元。
It looks dumb, doesn't want to do it.
看起来很蠢，不想做。
Lenny Rachitsky: I remember those Shaquille O'Neal years when he had a special free throw coach, and I remember them talking about this-
兰尼·拉奇茨基：我记得沙奎尔·奥尼尔有一位特殊的罚球教练的那些年，我记得他们谈论过这个 -
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
When he hit a special free throw coach.
当他击中教练特制的罚球时。
And, I remember them talking about this and he's like, "No, I'm never going to do that."
而且，我记得他们谈论过这件事，他说，“不，我永远不会那样做。”
Farhan Thawar: "I'm never going to do it." Because it looks dumb.
Farhan Thawar：“我永远不会这么做。”因为看起来很蠢。
And by the way, go back to the beginning of the interview.
顺便说一下，回到采访的开头。
I don't care what looks dumb or looking stupid, we're going to do this.
我不在乎什么看起来很蠢或看起来很愚蠢，我们就要这么做。
And so, actually, I ran the biggest pair programming shop in the world.
所以，实际上，我经营着世界上最大的结对编程商店。
Lenny Rachitsky: On that note, so what percentage of shop Shopify do this?
Lenny Rachitsky：关于这一点，Shopify 中有多少比例的商店会这样做？
Is this how y'all operate?
你们都是这样操作的吗？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah.
法尔汉·塔瓦：是的。
So, Shopify, I mentioned that Toby and Cody did this at the beginning of Shopify.
所以，Shopify，我提到Toby和Cody在Shopify一开始就这么做了。
And the cool thing about pair programming is, and in my old world at XtremeLabs is that we knew exactly what to build, because we were building mobile apps that were almost like contract manufacturing.
结对编程最酷的一点是，在我在 XtremeLabs 的旧世界中，我们确切地知道要构建什么，因为我们构建的移动应用程序几乎就像合同制造一样。
We're like, "We have an iOS version.
我们会说，“我们有 iOS 版本。
Can we build an Android version?" So, we quickly were able to say, "Here's the spec.
我们可以开发一个 Android 版本吗？”因此，我们很快就可以说：“这是规范。
Go quick." Shopify is such a different company, right?
快点走吧。” Shopify 是一家与众不同的公司，对吧？
We are a pathfinding company.
我们是一家探路公司。
We are trying to find the right thing to build.
我们正在努力寻找合适的东西来建造。
And so, pair programming may or may not make sense all the time.
因此，结对编程可能始终有意义，也可能不有意义。
Like Pivotal and Xtreme, we were doing 40 hours a week.
与 Pivotal 和 Xtreme 一样，我们每周工作 40 个小时。
Farhan Thawar: Shopify is much more of a four to eight hour a week pair programming culture, where you're gathering together on a problem and saying, "Hey, let's pair for half a day, or let's pair every Wednesday." And we use that tool in our arsenal to move quickly down a path.
Farhan Thawar：Shopify 更像是一种每周 4 到 8 小时的结对编程文化，你聚集在一起解决一个问题并说：“嘿，让我们结对半天，或者让我们每周三结对。”我们使用我们的武器库中的这个工具来快速前进。
But a lot of other time is spent pathfinding and trying to figure out what to build, and trying to convince field be like, "Hey, we're going to go down this path.
但其他很多时间都花在寻找路径并试图弄清楚要构建什么，并试图说服现场，“嘿，我们要走这条路。
Oh, now I know exactly."
哦，现在我确切地知道了。”
Farhan Thawar: And sometimes, by the way, 18 months later, we've now figured out all the things and that's the time we should delete everything and start over.
Farhan Thawar：顺便说一句，有时，18 个月后，我们现在已经弄清楚了所有事情，那就是我们应该删除所有内容并重新开始的时候了。
And, that's something that we will do at that point.
这就是我们届时要做的事情。
And so, you don't want to be pair programming for 18 months.
所以，你不想结对编程 18 个月。
You want to be wayfinding and pathfinding.
你想要寻路和寻路。
And then go, "I see the matrix.
然后说：“我看到了矩阵。
Let me just delete everything and now build it." Because the learning is what you're going for.
让我删除所有内容，然后构建它。”因为学习就是你的目的。
We have all the learning, now let's write the code.
我们已经学习了所有内容，现在让我们编写代码。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
So it's basically, when the code, you're pretty sure this is correct and it's really important segments of the code base pair program.
所以基本上，当编写代码时，您非常确定这是正确的，并且它是代码基对程序的非常重要的部分。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah.
法尔汉·塔瓦：是的。
And then also we do a lot of pairing during an incident or a way to figure out together, work with somebody and say, "Hey, I'm not really sure and let's jump on a call together or jump on a tuple and go down the path." And say, "Let's figure out together what's going on."
然后，我们也会在发生事件时进行大量配对，或者找到共同解决问题的方法，与某人合作并说：“嘿，我不太确定，让我们一起进行通话或进行元组并沿着路径走下去。”并说：“让我们一起弄清楚发生了什么事。”
Lenny Rachitsky: I can't help but ask AI, how does that impact this way of working?
Lenny Rachitsky：我忍不住问人工智能，这对这种工作方式有何影响？
Farhan Thawar: So, AI is super interesting.
Farhan Thawar：所以，人工智能非常有趣。
What's happening right now with an AI copilot like GitHub Copilot is it is your pair programmer.
像 GitHub Copilot 这样的人工智能副驾驶现在正在发生的事情是，它是你的结对程序员。
So, you now can feel like you're pairing actually without another human.
所以，你现在可以感觉到你实际上是在没有另一个人的情况下进行配对。
You can pair with the AI.
您可以与人工智能配对。
And so, what's happening too is that you're seeing people use Whisper, like they're talking to Cursor, and they're talking through Whisper to say, "Okay, let's build a new React component that does this." And they're talking and then it's building.
因此，你会看到人们使用 Whisper，就像他们在与 Cursor 交谈一样，他们通过 Whisper 交谈说：“好吧，让我们构建一个新的 React 组件来执行此操作。”他们正在交谈，然后就开始建设。
"Oh no, that's not what I meant.
“哦不，我不是这个意思。
I meant doing this." So you can actually not even have to type, just using voice, go back and forth with your pair programmer.
我的意思是这样做。”因此，您实际上甚至不需要打字，只需使用语音即可与您的结对程序员来回交互。
Farhan Thawar: I would say, that's amazing.
Farhan Thawar：我想说，这太棒了。
I would still contend take that experience and add two humans together.
我仍然主张利用该经验并将两个人加在一起。
So you've got an AI copilot and humans, because what's happening is generating code.
所以你有一个人工智能副驾驶和人类，因为正在发生的事情是生成代码。
And the two humans can look and say, "Oh, I know what it's trying to do." And, either delete the code, because you have inspiration and write it yourself, or just take the suggestion and move it forward.
两个人可以看着并说：“哦，我知道它想做什么。”并且，要么删除代码，因为您有灵感并自己编写代码，要么只是接受建议并继续前进。
But, I love today's world of AI copilots, because you never have to code loan on your own right?
但是，我喜欢当今人工智能副驾驶的世界，因为你永远不必自己编写贷款代码，对吗？
You never have to code alone.
您永远不必独自编码。
You can try a different language now, because the API and the syntax is much easier to pull forward.
您现在可以尝试不同的语言，因为 API 和语法更容易推进。
And so, all of those things are a win for engineering and a win for everybody who wants to build any software.
因此，所有这些都是工程的胜利，也是每个想要构建软件的人的胜利。
Lenny Rachitsky: That makes a lot of sense.
Lenny Rachitsky：这很有道理。
Basically, everyone's going to be a pair programmer-
基本上，每个人都会成为结对程序员——
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
In the future.
未来。
Okay, I want to come back to what else you have done at Shopify to create intensity.
好的，我想回顾一下您在 Shopify 还做了什么来创造强度。
And I think, again, it's important to highlight the intensity is meant to, "How do we get more done in the time we have and then go home?" Not just work all day every day, weekends kind of intensity.
我认为，再次强调强调强度是很重要的，“我们如何在有限的时间内完成更多工作，然后回家？”不仅仅是每天整天工作，周末也有强度。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah.
法尔汉·塔瓦：是的。
So we have a few things that we have going for us, right?
所以我们有一些适合我们的事情，对吗？
So one, we have this tool called GSD, which stands for get shit done, which you've probably heard from maybe talking to other Shopify folk, which is this notion of weekly updates to the whole company on what's happening.
因此，我们有一个名为 GSD 的工具，它代表“完成任务”，您可能在与其他 Shopify 人员交谈时听说过这个工具，这是每周向整个公司更新正在发生的事情的概念。
Again, Parkinson's law at scale.
再次，帕金森定律在规模上。
If you ask people every week, they want to show progress every single week.
如果你每周询问人们，他们希望每周都能展示进步。
So that's one way I talked about pair programming as well.
这也是我谈论结对编程的一种方式。
The other thing we do as a company is, we used to have twice a year was our cadence, Black Friday, Cyber Monday, or we had an event in the summer.
作为一家公司，我们做的另一件事是，我们过去每年两次是我们的节奏，黑色星期五，网络星期一，或者我们在夏天举办活动。
And now, we do six-week reviews.
现在，我们进行为期六周的审查。
So, teams have this notion of every six weeks actually coming together and walking through the roadmap, the resourcing, and what they're working on with their immediate leadership, but then also, with Toby.
因此，团队有这样的想法，即每六周实际上聚集在一起，与直接领导层以及托比一起讨论路线图、资源以及他们正在做的事情。
Farhan Thawar: And so, what's cool about that, and by the way, it's a huge time investment, right?
Farhan Thawar：所以，这有什么很酷的，顺便说一句，这是一个巨大的时间投资，对吧？
We all get into a room, it's happening tomorrow.
我们都进入一个房间，事情明天就会发生。
So Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, a bunch of us will be in the office together and we're going to go through every project in the company, and we're going to talk about the project, the resourcing, how it's going, and we're going to make changes.
所以周二、周三、周四，我们一群人会一起在办公室，我们将审查公司的每个项目，我们将讨论项目、资源、进展情况，以及我们将做出的改变。
And again, that creates intensity, because you want to show what has been done, what have you learned since the last six-week review.
再说一次，这会产生强度，因为你想展示自上次为期六周的回顾以来已经做了什么，你学到了什么。
And, we find six weeks is a very good cadence, because it's short enough that you can remember the context and it's long enough...
而且，我们发现六周是一个非常好的节奏，因为它足够短，你可以记住上下文，而且它足够长......
Six weeks is long enough, especially if you have, let's say, a team of a dozen engineers, you can do a lot.
六周已经足够长了，特别是如果您有一个由十几名工程师组成的团队，您可以做很多事情。
And not only that, you can do a lot in a day, but this is a check-in point.
不仅如此，你一天可以做很多事情，但这是一个打卡点。
Farhan Thawar: And what I've noticed too with intensity is, let's say, we get a review and there's some feedback we get in that review.
Farhan Thawar：我也强烈注意到的是，我们收到了一份评论，并且我们在该评论中得到了一些反馈。
We don't wait until the next six-week review, right?
我们不会等到下一次为期六周的审查，对吧？
The next day we are building things, we are iterating, we are tagging people.
第二天，我们正在构建东西，我们正在迭代，我们正在标记人们。
And then, by the next week's we're like, "Here's the trajectory." Right?
然后，到了下周，我们就会说，“这就是轨迹。”正确的？
Actually, I want to get that Elon shirt made, "What have you done this week?" Because, Parkinson's law is real.
事实上，我想让埃隆衬衫制作成“你这周做了什么？”因为，帕金森定律是真实存在的。
It sounds funny, but I keep bringing this up, but whatever time you allot to something will be the time it takes, right?
这听起来很有趣，但我一直在提这个问题，但无论你为某件事分配什么时间，它都会花费时间，对吗？
Farhan Thawar: So, if you're doing something monumental, I don't know, you're doing a reorg or something, right?
Farhan Thawar：所以，如果你正在做一些具有里程碑意义的事情，我不知道，你正在进行重组或其他什么，对吧？
You can do it the slow way.
你可以慢慢来。
"Let's sit down, and plan, and roll it out." And it's probably six months in most companies.
“让我们坐下来制定计划，然后实施。”大多数公司可能需要六个月。
Shopify, this is a week or two.
Shopify，这是一两周。
You sit down, you're like, "Hey, this is the bones of it.
你坐下来，你会说，“嘿，这就是它的骨头。
Let's bring some more people and think." But then, it's going to start leaking.
让我们多带一些人来思考一下。”但随后，它就会开始泄漏。
So we just launch it.
所以我们只是启动它。
Right?
正确的？
And, we do the same thing with lots of things.
而且，我们对很多事情都做同样的事情。
We just try to move more quickly and get out of the...
我们只是试图更快地行动并摆脱......
We don't do change management, we just land it, and then go, "Hey everyone, it's a volatile company.
我们不进行变革管理，我们只是进行变革管理，然后说：“大家好，这是一家不稳定的公司。
This is what's happening.
这就是正在发生的事情。
But this is how we get things done quickly." And then, move on with our lives.
但这就是我们快速完成工作的方法。”然后，继续我们的生活。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, there's so much there.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，有这么多。
I have been through the six-month reorgs.
我已经经历了为期六个月的重组。
And, I think that context you just shared of, "We're at a volatile company, we're changing things.
而且，我认为你刚才分享的背景是，“我们在一家不稳定的公司，我们正在改变一切。
It's not going to be smooth, but we think this is for the best." It's just the culture of Shopify.
这不会一帆风顺，但我们认为这是最好的结果。”这就是 Shopify 的文化。
It sounds like, "We want to keep moving fast.
听起来就像是，“我们希望继续快速前进。
We know this isn't going to be the smoothest thing, but we just know this better to make the change at this point versus wait."
我们知道这不会是最顺利的事情，但我们只是知道此时做出改变而不是等待。”
Farhan Thawar: It's how Toby increased the resiliency in the company.
Farhan Thawar：这就是托比提高公司弹性的方法。
He would walk around in the old days when we had a data center and just unplugged machines, right?
在过去，当我们有一个数据中心并且只是拔掉电源的机器时，他会四处走动，对吗？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, chaos monkey.
Farhan Thawar：是的，混沌猴。
You're right.
你说得对。
But that actually works, because it just says, "Hey, by the way, shit's going to break.
但这确实有效，因为它只是说：“嘿，顺便说一句，狗屎会坏掉的。
And so, let's be resilient to that." And so, same thing here.
因此，让我们对此保持弹性。”所以，这里也是同样的事情。
"Hey, by the way, someone's going to move your cheese.
“嘿，顺便说一句，有人会动你的奶酪。
It's fine.
没关系。
We are here to create more entrepreneurs in the world.
我们来这里是为了在世界上培养更多的企业家。
We're not here to have a six-month change management roadmap.
我们来这里不是为了制定六个月的变革管理路线图。
And, that will just actually hurt the speed at which we can deliver value to merchants."
而且，这实际上会损害我们为商家提供价值的速度。”
Lenny Rachitsky: So, on all the things you shared, so there's weekly updates.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以，关于您分享的所有内容，每周都有更新。
So the weekly updates are each person shares what they're working on for the week.
因此，每周更新是每个人分享他们本周的工作内容。
Is that the idea?
是这个想法吗？
Farhan Thawar: So, each project, it has an update, it might have a video of, "Here's the experience." It'll have a obviously a bunch of writing on what's changed since last time.
Farhan Thawar：所以，每个项目都有一个更新，它可能有一个视频，“这就是体验”。显然，它会写一堆关于自上次以来发生的变化的文章。
We have a process called OK1 and OK2, which is like, OK1 is typically at the director level where they're like, "Okay, I'm aligned with the direction that this is going at." Or, "I'm not aligned." And they can make changes.
我们有一个称为 OK1 和 OK2 的流程，就像 OK1 通常处于总监级别，他们会说：“好吧，我同意这件事的发展方向。”或者，“我没有对齐。”他们可以做出改变。
Then, when it goes to OK2, it's typically the VP level of the area, who's now looking to say, "Okay.
然后，当进入 OK2 时，通常是该领域的 VP 级别，他现在会说：“好的。
What you're working on actually aligns with the overall architecture.
您正在做的事情实际上与整体架构是一致的。
But by the way, have you looked at this context?
但顺便问一下，你看过这个背景吗？
Maybe you haven't seen this, this is happening, or the industry." And so, you're trying to align at that level.
也许你还没有看到这一点，这正在发生，或者这个行业。”因此，您正在尝试在该级别上保持一致。
And then, again, like I mentioned, every six weeks we go through with Toby, and he's an intense guy himself.
然后，就像我提到的，每六周我们都会和托比一起经历一次，他本人就是一个热情的人。
Farhan Thawar: And so, a lot of it is like, "Hey, why is this taking so long?
Farhan Thawar：所以，很多时候都是这样的，“嘿，为什么花了这么长时间？
Are we overthinking it?
是我们想太多了吗？
Are we not trying to move forward on this thing, because we're blocked on something?
我们是否因为某些事情受阻而不想在这件事上取得进展？
Is there some piece of infra?" Actually, I'll give you a good example.
有一些基础设施吗？”事实上，我会给你一个很好的例子。
In one of the reviews from last time, there was an interesting AI problem we were trying to solve with LLMs that required us to have a very large output context window.
在上次的一篇评论中，我们试图用法学硕士来解决一个有趣的人工智能问题，这需要我们有一个非常大的输出上下文窗口。
And, most of the LLMs today have a very small output context window.
而且，当今大多数法学硕士的输出上下文窗口都非常小。
But in the review, right, we have shared Slack channels with all the LLM folks, right?
但在审查中，我们已经与所有 LLM 人员共享了 Slack 频道，对吧？
I messaged in the open AI channel, I messaged in the Gemini channel, whatever.
我在开放的人工智能频道中发消息，我在双子座频道中发消息，等等。
And, within an hour we had increased the context on a bunch of major models and we were able to move forward through the thing, just because I asked.
而且，在一个小时内，我们增加了一系列主要模型的背景，并且仅仅因为我提出了要求，我们就能够继续推进这个事情。
Farhan Thawar: And so, that's an example.
Farhan Thawar：这就是一个例子。
It didn't take another six week review, but it increased the intensity, because the team was like, "Oh, we were blocked because we thought we had to now chunk up this data and do this thing because we had smaller output context and we thought we could do a big input context, but we'd have to do this caching." And, it was like this whole thing.
不需要再进行六周的审查，但它增加了强度，因为团队就像，“哦，我们被阻止了，因为我们认为我们现在必须将这些数据分块并做这件事，因为我们有较小的输出上下文，我们认为我们可以做一个大的输入上下文，但我们必须做这个缓存。”而且，整个事情就像这样。
I'm like, "Well, did we just ask them if we get bigger?" And then, they were like, "Oh, we don't have this as undocumented, but we'll just enable it right now for Shopify." And so, that created the intensity of the team to be like, "Oh, we can now quickly get unblocked." So that's the example of just moving quick and trying to just, again, ask a dumb question.
我想，“好吧，我们刚刚问过他们我们是否会变得更大吗？”然后，他们说，“哦，我们没有将此作为未记录的内容，但我们现在就为 Shopify 启用它。”因此，这使得团队的强度变得像“哦，我们现在可以快速解除封锁了。”这就是一个快速行动并试图再次提出一个愚蠢问题的例子。
I'm like, "This is probably not possible, but..." And then, they came back and said, "Oh yeah, we can do that."
我想，“这可能是不可能的，但是......”然后，他们回来说，“哦，是的，我们可以做到这一点。”
Lenny Rachitsky: That's a great example.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的例子。
And, as you're describing the ways that you create intensity and velocity within Shopify, it's interesting that what you're listing is a bunch of meetings and check ins, which to most people would feel like, "Why do we need so many..." There's all this like, "Less meetings." And I know you guys famously cancel all your meetings and that's a whole thing we can talk about.
而且，当您描述在 Shopify 中创建强度和速度的方式时，有趣的是，您列出的是一堆会议和签到，对于大多数人来说，这会让人觉得，“为什么我们需要这么多......”所有这些都像是“更少的会议”。我知道你们取消所有会议是出了名的，这是我们可以谈论的全部事情。
But, it's interesting that more check ins and regular check ins allow you to move faster.
但是，有趣的是，更多的签到和定期的签到可以让你移动得更快。
I imagine it's partly because it just makes sure you're not working on things that are unnecessary, and dumb, and not going to be used.
我想这部分是因为它只是确保你不会做不必要的、愚蠢的、不会被使用的事情。
And it's just continue to refine, these are actually the most important.
而且只是不断的细化，这些其实才是最重要的。
Farhan Thawar: I mean, it's a combination of trust but verify, right?
Farhan Thawar：我的意思是，这是信任和验证的结合，对吧？
Because don't forget, the goal of the check-in is not for you to be like, "Ha, ha, I caught you not doing your work." It's not like the Dilbert boss, "Hey, did you do your thing?" Right?
因为不要忘记，签到的目的不是让你说“哈哈哈，我发现你没有做你的工作。”这不像呆伯特老板那样，“嘿，你做好你的事了吗？”正确的？
Even when I look at the Elon text, which is like, "Hey, what did you get done this week?" It wasn't to try to catch Parag in a, "You didn't do anything or you did a bunch of useless stuff." It was hopefully to pair on the problem, meaning, when I ask somebody, "Hey, did we move forward on this LLM project, because we now have this larger context window?" And then, they came back and said, "Oh, here's what we learned." So then, I can then look at the answer and say, "Oh, so now, have you thought of this?
即使当我看到埃隆的短信时，它就像是，“嘿，你这周做了什么？”这并不是要试图抓住帕拉格，“你什么都没做，或者你做了一堆无用的事情。”希望能够解决这个问题，也就是说，当我问某人“嘿，我们是否在这个法学硕士项目上取得了进展，因为我们现在有了更大的背景窗口？”然后，他们回来说：“哦，这就是我们学到的东西。”那么，我可以看着答案说：“哦，那么现在，你有没有想过这个？
Have you tried..." It's a way to pair on the problem.
你尝试过吗……”这是解决问题的一种方式。
Farhan Thawar: So, we have this word, everybody talks about micromanagement as a word, and we don't actually think it's a dirty word at Shopify, but the reason we don't think it's a dirty word is because it's not just, again, Dilbert boss saying, "Where did you do the thing?" It's like, "Hey, can I work on this problem with you?
Farhan Thawar：所以，我们有这个词，每个人都在谈论微观管理这个词，我们实际上并不认为它在 Shopify 是一个肮脏的词，但我们不认为它是一个肮脏的词的原因是因为它不仅仅是 Dilbert 老板说的，“你在哪里做这件事？”就像，“嘿，我可以和你一起解决这个问题吗？
And if I work on this problem with you, I got to see where you are pretty often, and then give you advice, or you're going to share context with me, because I'm not in the work every day." To then come back and say, "Oh, based on what I know and what you know, can we move this in this direction?
如果我和你一起解决这个问题，我必须经常看看你在哪里，然后给你建议，或者你会与我分享背景，因为我不是每天都在工作。”然后回来说：“哦，根据我所知道的和你所知道的，我们可以朝这个方向推进吗？
Maybe that's better for merchants."
也许这对商人来说更好。”
Farhan Thawar: I don't want to overuse the pairing paradigm, but it is really much like, "Can I pair with you?" And I learned this actually very early in my Shopify tenure, because Toby would have these one-on-ones with me and I'd be like, "Toby, you don't have to waste your time, man.
Farhan Thawar：我不想过度使用配对模式，但这真的很像“我可以和你配对吗？”事实上，我在 Shopify 任职期间很早就了解到了这一点，因为托比会和我进行一对一的交流，我会说：“托比，你不必浪费时间，伙计。
You hired me.
你雇用了我。
I got this." Well, he goes, "Oh, you misunderstand why you're here.
我得到了这个。”好吧，他说：“哦，你误解了你来这里的原因。
We are here to work on problems together." And I was like, "Oh, I didn't even think..." I thought he hired me to take problems away.
我们来这里是为了共同解决问题。”我当时想，“哦，我什至没有想到……”我以为他雇用我是为了解决问题。
He hired me to work on problems with me.
他雇用我来和我一起解决问题。
That's completely different than what I thought.
这和我想的完全不一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
Okay.
好的。
One thing you mentioned is meeting thing.
你提到的一件事是见面的事情。
For people that don't know what you all did with meetings, I think it might be worth just sharing that briefly, because it's awesome and something a lot of companies can learn from.
对于那些不知道你们在会议上做了什么的人，我认为简单地分享一下可能是值得的，因为它非常棒，而且很多公司都可以从中学习。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, sure.
法尔汉·塔瓦：是的，当然。
Actually, the funny story about the meeting Armageddon, is that, I was messaging Toby prior to me starting at Shopify about meeting Armageddon.
事实上，关于世界末日会议的一个有趣的故事是，在我开始 Shopify 之前，我给托比发了关于会议世界末日的消息。
And so, I actually think I had a little hand in him doing this before I got to Shopify.
所以，我实际上认为在我加入 Shopify 之前，我在他的这件事上起了一点作用。
I was like, "Hey, have you seen..." I think it was Dropbox, "Have you seen a Dropbox is doing and Meetingageddon?
我当时想，“嘿，你见过……”我认为是 Dropbox，“你见过 Dropbox 正在做的事情和 Meetinggeddon 吗？
And so, he was like, "This is super interesting." This is years before I started.
所以，他说，“这太有趣了。”这是我开始之前的几年。
So, I think it's funny that it ended up being a real thing.
所以，我认为这很有趣，它最终成为了现实。
But here's what we do.
但这就是我们所做的。
Once a year at a random time, we will delete all recurring meetings that have more than two people, so not one-on- ones, and are internal people only, so not interviews or external partner meetings.
每年一次，我们将在随机时间删除所有超过两人的定期会议（因此不是一对一的会议），并且仅限内部人员会议，因此不是访谈或外部合作伙伴会议。
And then, we have a two-week moratorium where you're not allowed to add a reoccurring meeting.
然后，我们有两周的暂停期，不允许您添加重复举行的会议。
You can have a regular meeting, but not a reoccurring meeting.
您可以召开例行会议，但不能召开重复会议。
Farhan Thawar: And the idea is that there's a lot of inertia behind a recurring meeting.
Farhan Thawar：我们的想法是，定期会议背后存在很大的惯性。
It just always is there, and you know it's coming up, and it's hard to delete, because you're like, "Oh yeah, we talk about this thing every week." And so, what we do is we just do a meeting reset.
它总是在那里，你知道它即将出现，而且很难删除，因为你会说，“哦，是的，我们每周都会谈论这件事。”因此，我们所做的只是重置会议。
And, I think, yeah, it's just called chaos monkey and the admins go in and just delete everything.
而且，我想，是的，它只是被称为混乱猴子，管理员进去然后删除所有内容。
Now what's cool about it is, it forces you to rethink, "Do we need a recurring meeting?
现在最酷的是，它迫使你重新思考，“我们需要定期召开会议吗？
Or do we just need one meeting?
或者我们只需要一次会议？
Or do we need a different cadence?" That's one thing.
或者我们需要不同的节奏吗？”这是一回事。
The other thing is it frees up so much crafter time, right?
另一件事是它释放了很多工匠时间，对吗？
Farhan Thawar: One of the stats I track across engineering is how many hours are individual contributors in meetings per week?
Farhan Thawar：我在整个工程领域跟踪的统计数据之一是个人贡献者每周参加会议的时间是多少？
And we noticed that after we did...
我们注意到，在我们这样做之后……
We did two things by the way.
顺便说一句，我们做了两件事。
And I have a spicy second one for this, but the first one was we deleted meetings.
我对此有一个辛辣的第二个，但第一个是我们删除了会议。
And the second thing we did was we moved a lot of our Slack into Facebook workplace, which I'll talk about.
我们做的第二件事是将大部分 Slack 迁移到 Facebook 工作场所，我将讨论这一点。
Those are the only two things we did.
这是我们唯一做的两件事。
And we saw a huge decrease in the amount of time crafters were in meetings.
我们发现工匠们参加会议的时间大幅减少。
And then, we saw all kinds of other productivity enhancements, because they were able to have that flow time and work on things.
然后，我们看到了各种其他生产力的提高，因为他们能够拥有流动的时间并处理事情。
Farhan Thawar: So, we're at something like three hours of meetings per week for an individual contributor at Shopify, which is phenomenal.
Farhan Thawar：所以，我们每周为 Shopify 的个人贡献者举行大约三个小时的会议，这是惊人的。
Three hours a week is amazing.
每周三个小时真是太棒了。
I think managers is not that bad.
我认为管理者并没有那么糟糕。
I think I tweeted this.
我想我发了这个推文。
I think it's six or seven hours per week.
我认为每周六到七个小时。
That's not bad at all, in order to get aligned.
为了保持一致，这一点也不坏。
And then, all the rest of the time is work time.
然后，剩下的时间就是工作时间了。
Lenny Rachitsky: And how many hours was it before Meetingageddon and Workplace?
Lenny Rachitsky：距离 Meetinggeddon 和 Workplace 还有多少小时？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, you're asking me a good question.
Farhan Thawar：是的，你问了我一个很好的问题。
I have to go look and see.
我得去看看。
But, it came down by something like 50 or 60%.
但是，它下降了 50% 或 60% 左右。
It was something like five or six hours for individual contributors and came down to three.
对于个人贡献者来说，大约需要五六个小时，最后减少到了三个小时。
And then, the managers, I think it was 10 that came down to 6, something like that.
然后，经理们，我认为是 10 人减少到了 6 人，类似的事情。
But it was a huge difference.
但这是一个巨大的差异。
And the only two things, like I mentioned, were one was the Meetingageddon, the other one was like this, and I can talk about this.
唯一的两件事，就像我提到的，一件事是会议，另一件事是这样的，我可以谈论这一点。
This is a-
这是一个——
Farhan Thawar: ...
法尔汉·塔瓦：...
Yeah.
是的。
So, I mean, I love Slack.
所以，我的意思是，我喜欢 Slack。
It's the IM tool.
这是即时通讯工具。
Everybody uses it.
每个人都使用它。
But it can for sure cause distraction.
但它肯定会导致分心。
And so, what we did was we moved all announcement information.
因此，我们所做的就是移动所有公告信息。
So, anytime you're sending a status update or large group announcement, we moved all of that to Facebook Meta Workplace, like Facebook for work basically, which is now being deprecated.
因此，每当您发送状态更新或大型群组公告时，我们都会将所有这些内容转移到 Facebook Meta Workplace，就像 Facebook for work 一样，但现在已被弃用。
So, we'll have to figure that out.
所以，我们必须弄清楚这一点。
But, it just moved all this stuff to a ML feed that you can consume differently than you would Slack, because Slack is like I message you and you see an alert and all this stuff, versus Workplace is like, "Oh, I want to go and consume content from the company, and get updates, and share updates." And so, that reduced a lot of distraction as well.
但是，它只是将所有这些内容转移到了 ML feed 中，您可以使用与 Slack 不同的方式使用它，因为 Slack 就像我向您发送消息，您会看到一条警报和所有这些内容，而 Workplace 就像是，“哦，我想去使用公司的内容，获取更新并共享更新。”因此，这也减少了很多干扰。
And so, I'd love to figure out what the next tool for us is, but it is probably something more like a river of information that I can dip my toe into, versus IM and chat everywhere.
因此，我很想知道我们的下一个工具是什么，但它可能更像是一条我可以涉足的信息河流，而不是随处可见的即时消息和聊天。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is super interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：这非常有趣。
So, specifically, things that are just updates where you don't need a discussion, you almost want to discourage a discussion.
因此，具体而言，对于那些不需要讨论的更新内容，您几乎想阻止讨论。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, I mean, it has the commenting, but it's not the same tool.
Farhan Thawar：是的，我的意思是，它有评论，但它不是同一个工具。
And, by the way, Slack is amazing, we use it.
顺便说一句，Slack 非常棒，我们使用它。
It's just that for this thing, it wasn't working for us.
只是对于这件事，它对我们不起作用。
And so, we wanted to move that somewhere else.
因此，我们想把它移到其他地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like, the more I dig into the Shopify way of working, the more fun stuff I never expected emerges.
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得，我越深入研究 Shopify 的工作方式，就会出现越多我从未预料到的有趣的东西。
I'm curious what else is going to emerge.
我很好奇还会出现什么。
So we've been talking about ways that y'all, and you specifically, have created intensity, especially in the engineering organization.
所以我们一直在讨论你们所有人，特别是你们，创造强度的方式，特别是在工程组织中。
And then, you've also shared just broadly Shopify.
然后，您还广泛分享了 Shopify。
What else is on that list?
该清单上还有什么？
What else have you found helps create more kilojoules per hour?
您还发现什么可以帮助每小时产生更多千焦耳热量？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, so again, I think there's nothing, I would say again, start from the beginning, there's nothing more than pair programming, because literally you can't do anything else but be on your computer.
Farhan Thawar：是的，所以再说一次，我认为没有什么，我会再说一遍，从头开始，没有什么比结对编程更重要的了，因为从字面上看，除了在计算机上你不能做任何其他事情。
So pair programming is the number one.
所以结对编程是第一位的。
I will say, the weekly cadence helps a lot, right, which you mentioned.
我想说，每周的节奏很有帮助，对吧，你提到的。
Again, which is part of GSD, which is sharing the updates, and then the six-week reviews, that does a lot.
再说一次，这是 GSD 的一部分，它分享更新，然后是为期六周的评论，这做了很多事情。
On the other side, we also have a lot of metrics and alerts that help us see when potentially things might be happening in the system that can allow us to be like, "Hey, wait a sec, there's too many things going on of this type.
另一方面，我们还有很多指标和警报可以帮助我们了解系统中何时可能发生潜在的事情，这可以让我们说，“嘿，等一下，这种类型的事情太多了。
We probably have to sit back and reset and figure out what's going on."
我们可能必须坐下来重新调整并弄清楚发生了什么。”
Farhan Thawar: So one thing that happened, for example, was we started seeing that it was taking a lot of time to develop in our admin, like engineers at Shopify developing in the admin.
Farhan Thawar：例如，发生的一件事是，我们开始发现在我们的管理员中进行开发需要花费大量时间，就像 Shopify 的工程师在管理员中进行开发一样。
So we called, what's called, a code yellow, which is before code red.
所以我们称之为黄色代码，它位于红色代码之前。
But code yellow is this idea of like, "Hey, we're going to call a code yellow on the admin." We want to make sure that the developer experience inside Shopify is really good.
但黄色代码的意思是，“嘿，我们要在管理员上调用黄色代码。”我们希望确保 Shopify 内的开发人员体验确实良好。
It should be easy to start up the repo.
启动存储库应该很容易。
It should be easy to make changes, it should be easy to see the changes.
改变应该很容易，改变也应该很容易看到。
And so, those are the things that, again, we can create intensity, because this code yellow allows the champion to tap anyone on the shoulder and say, "Stop what you're doing and come help this thing." Which is an infrastructure layer thing.
因此，这些都是我们可以创造强度的事情，因为黄色代码允许冠军拍拍任何人的肩膀并说，“停止你正在做的事情，来帮助这件事。”这是基础设施层的事情。
And by building out this infrastructure, it allows you to go fast.
通过构建这个基础设施，它可以让你走得更快。
It takes longer to build infrastructure, but it makes you go fast forever afterwards, right?
建设基础设施需要更长的时间，但它会让你永远走得更快，对吧？
Farhan Thawar: I'll actually give you an example of one of these.
Farhan Thawar：实际上我会给你举一个例子。
So, we in 2020, 2021, the heyday of pandemic, obviously, there was a crypto summer again and crypto was going nuts.
所以，我们在 2020 年、2021 年，大流行的鼎盛时期，显然，又迎来了加密货币的夏天，加密货币变得疯狂。
And we were sitting back and saying, "Wow, a lot of our merchants are now asking for NFT gating." NFT gating, which is, "If you have the token, you can now go into the storefront and see my products.
我们坐下来说：“哇，我们的很多商家现在都在要求 NFT 门控。” NFT 门控，即“如果你有代币，你现在就可以进入店面看到我的产品。
You can see my prices and you can check it out, but only if you have the token." And, we were getting a lot of demand from merchants to be like, "We want to do this.
你可以看到我的价格，也可以查看，但前提是你有代币。”而且，我们从商家那里得到了很多需求，“我们想这样做。
We want to sell an NFT.
我们想出售 NFT。
And we want our buyers to have the NFT to have this great experience." And we're like, "We agree.
我们希望我们的买家能够通过 NFT 获得这种很棒的体验。”我们的反应是，“我们同意。
We want you to be able to do whatever you want.
我们希望您能够做任何您想做的事。
And so, we want to build this for you too."
因此，我们也想为您打造这个。”
Farhan Thawar: And, sitting with Toby, he's like, "You guys are thinking about it wrong." He goes, "How long would it take to build NFT gating?" I'm like, "I don't know.
Farhan Thawar：当他和托比坐在一起时，他说：“你们想错了。”他问道：“建立 NFT 门控需要多长时间？”我说：“我不知道。
Two, three weeks." He goes, "Now, how long would it take to build a platform layer, which exposes APIs so anyone could build NFT gating in one hour?" I'm like, "I don't know.
两、三周。”他说道，“现在，构建一个平台层需要多长时间，该平台层公开 API，以便任何人都可以在一小时内构建 NFT 门控？”我想，“我不知道。
Two, three months." He goes, "Do that." He goes, "Because you don't know what they're going to build on top of the platform." NFT gating is one thing, one use case, but if you spend the time to build out the infrastructure layer, he calls it putting gas in the tank, if you put the gas in the tank, people could drive on that gas for a long time going forward.
两三个月。”他说，“就这么做。”他说，“因为你不知道他们要在平台上构建什么。”NFT 门控是一回事，一个用例，但如果你花时间构建基础设施层，他称之为将天然气放入罐中，如果你将天然气放入罐中，人们可以在未来很长一段时间内使用该天然气行驶。
And so, he goes, "I always want you to think about..." And the key part was, "What can you build so anyone could build this in one hour?" Right?
所以，他说，“我总是希望你考虑......”关键部分是，“你可以构建什么，以便任何人都可以在一小时内构建它？”对吗？
Farhan Thawar: So, he does this thing to us all the time where he goes, "Oh, this should only be..." He'll say it and people get the wrong thing.
Farhan Thawar：所以，他总是对我们做这样的事情，他说，“哦，这应该只是……”他会这么说，但人们会误解。
He'll say, "Oh, you could write this in a day." And what he means is, "What has to be true so that you could write this in a day?
他会说：“哦，你一天就能写完这个。”他的意思是，“什么必须是真实的，你才能在一天之内写出这篇文章？
What infrastructure do you need?" And, he actually develops this way.
你需要什么基础设施？”而且，他实际上是这样开发的。
He will write code against an API that doesn't exist, because he's like, "You know what should exist here?
他会针对不存在的 API 编写代码，因为他会说，“你知道这里应该存在什么吗？
This API." He'll write the code, he'll go back and forth and refine the client on the server, and then he'll go, "This is correct, the correct client code.
这个API。”他会编写代码，他会来回改进服务器上的客户端，然后他会说，“这是正确的，正确的客户端代码。
Now, let me go implement the server code."
现在，让我去实现服务器代码。”
Farhan Thawar: And this is notion of building things as infrastructure that sound slower today, because it's going to take...
Farhan Thawar：这是将事物构建为基础设施的概念，但今天听起来速度较慢，因为它需要......
It's two, three months, instead of two or three weeks.
这是两三个月，而不是两三周。
But after that, the things that people built on top, right, were so easy to build, there were so many more scenarios that were emerged.
但在那之后，人们在上面构建的东西，对吧，非常容易构建，出现了更多的场景。
It's just a different way of thinking about software.
这只是思考软件的不同方式。
And, it's intensity in a different way, it's intensity around building this infrastructure layer, which we want to build quickly, but takes two or three months, in this case, but then can get everyone building on top of our infra in a much, much quicker way.
而且，它的强度以不同的方式，它是围绕构建这个基础设施层的强度，我们希望快速构建，但在这种情况下需要两到三个月的时间，但随后可以让每个人以更快的方式在我们的基础设施之上构建。
And of course, who knows what can flourish from there?
当然，谁知道那里会发展出什么东西呢？
Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting and it makes sense that so much of the way you all think is about building the best possible platform, versus the, necessarily, best possible point solution for someone.
Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣，也是有道理的，你们所有人的大部分想法都是关于构建最好的平台，而不是为某人提供最好的单点解决方案。
And it also explains why you spend so much time in crafting really great code and pair programming, because again, it's a platform for other people to build stuff on.
它还解释了为什么您花费如此多的时间来编写真正出色的代码和结对编程，因为同样，它是其他人构建东西的平台。
So, I think, a lot of this is very useful, especially for platform businesses.
所以，我认为，其中很多都是非常有用的，特别是对于平台企业而言。
Farhan Thawar: No, exactly.
Farhan Thawar：不，完全正确。
And actually, you're making me think of a stat.
事实上，你让我想到了一个统计数据。
So, last year, maybe a tangent, but I tweeted out that GitHub Copilot has written over 1 million lines of code for Shopify.
所以，去年，也许有点离题，但我在 Twitter 上表示 GitHub Copilot 已经为 Shopify 编写了超过 100 万行代码。
And people are like, "Oh my god." And it got picked up.
人们就像是，“天哪。”它被捡起来了。
And everyone's talking about it.
每个人都在谈论它。
And I go, "I don't know why is everybody getting so crazy, because what I want to see is GitHub Copilot deleting 1 million lines of code." That's when you know we're actually at this point where this is close to an engineer.
我说，“我不知道为什么每个人都变得如此疯狂，因为我想看到的是 GitHub Copilot 删除 100 万行代码。”那时你就会知道我们实际上已经接近工程师了。
Right?
对吗？
And so, we famously have deleted millions of lines of code this year, because we were trying to focus on, again, the sunk cost and rebuilding things elegantly, or you don't need this anymore and rebuilding.
因此，我们今年删除了数百万行代码，因为我们试图再次专注于沉没成本并优雅地重建事物，或者您不再需要它并重建。
And I even tweeted out, I think someone said, "Oh, Shopify is in the top 10 Ruby code bases in the world." And I said, "I never want to see us on this list again." We shouldn't be gunning for number one, we should be gunning for number 100, right?
我什至发了推文，我想有人说，“哦，Shopify 是世界上 10 名 Ruby 代码库之一。”我说：“我再也不想看到我们出现在这份名单上了。”我们不应该追求第一，我们应该追求第100，对吧？
We want to be not on this list.
我们不想出现在这个名单上。
Right?
对吗？
Someone else can take the crown.
其他人可以夺取桂冠。
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Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。
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访问 Vanta.com/lenny 即可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元。
That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny.
那是 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny。
Wait, talk about more about this.
等等，再谈谈这个。
So, there's been a drive to delete code and simplify.
因此，一直有删除代码和简化的动力。
What's behind that?
这背后是什么？
What's going on there?
那里发生了什么事？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, so there's a few things, right?
Farhan Thawar：是的，有一些事情，对吧？
One is, the more context you can fit in your head around a code base.
一是，您可以在头脑中适应代码库的更多上下文。
And you can never really fit all of Shopify in your head, because it's a big complicated set of tools we give to merchants.
你永远不可能真正把 Shopify 的全部内容装进你的脑子里，因为它是我们为商家提供的一套庞大而复杂的工具。
But, the more you can simplify, the much easier everything becomes, resiliency, performance, reliability, maintainability, all the illities become much, much, much easier when the code base is simple.
但是，你能简化得越多，一切就变得越容易，弹性、性能、可靠性、可维护性，当代码库简单时，所有的问题都会变得非常非常容易。
Now, all you need really is the mandate of like, "Oh, well, let's look at this code.
现在，您真正需要的只是这样的命令：“哦，好吧，让我们看看这段代码。
And, if I could start this today, would I really build this thing?
而且，如果我今天就可以开始，我真的会建造这个东西吗？
Or do I now have enough domain expertise to say, 'Oh no, this is the right solution?' So can I delete start over and build this more easily?" And now, everything else becomes easy to build on top of.
或者我现在是否拥有足够的领域专业知识来说：“哦，不，这是正确的解决方案？”那么我可以删除重新开始并更轻松地构建它吗？”现在，其他一切都变得很容易构建。
Farhan Thawar: And so, routinely, we have a delete code club, we have hack days, which happens two or three times a year, where there's always one team that is focused on deleting code.
Farhan Thawar：所以，我们通常有一个删除代码俱乐部，我们有黑客日，每年发生两到三次，总是有一个团队专注于删除代码。
They even have a manual, "Here's how to find things to delete." And, it's amazing.
他们甚至还有一本手册，“以下是如何查找要删除的内容。”而且，这太棒了。
We almost always delete.
我们几乎总是删除。
I don't know if this is good or bad.
我不知道这是好还是坏。
We can always almost find a million plus lines of code delete, which is insane.
我们几乎总是可以找到一百万多行代码删除，这太疯狂了。
But, at the same time, I applaud the teams for going after the cruft and the code base.
但与此同时，我对团队对缺陷和代码库的追求表示赞赏。
And everything gets easier, right?
一切都会变得更容易，对吗？
Codelets loads faster.
Codelet 加载速度更快。
It's easier to understand.
更容易理解。
Farhan Thawar: This is why when I look at GitHub stats, you shouldn't really look at...
Farhan Thawar：这就是为什么当我查看 GitHub 统计数据时，你不应该真正查看......
I think Google put out and said, "Oh, 25% of all code is now written by AI." I'm like, "Where's the delete?
我认为 Google 曾说过：“哦，现在 25% 的代码都是由 AI 编写的。”我想，“删除在哪里？
Where is the 25% of all code is deleted by AI?" Right?
被 AI 删除的 25% 代码在哪里？”对吗？
This is where we have to start thinking about it.
这是我们必须开始思考的地方。
Because, the right code is never the volumous lines of code metric.
因为，正确的代码从来不是以大量的代码行来衡量的。
It's always something else.
总是有别的东西。
It's always elegance.
它总是优雅的。
And that's where we have to think about.
这就是我们必须思考的地方。
So, it is something that, as part of us being long-term infrastructure thinking, we really do care about that.
因此，作为我们长期基础设施思考的一部分，我们确实关心这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love this, in part, because it connects to the topic we're talking about, which is speed, velocity, intensity, smaller code base, cleaner, better code base allows you to move faster.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个，部分原因是它与我们正在讨论的主题相关，即速度、速度、强度、更小的代码库、更干净、更好的代码库让你移动得更快。
I used to be an engineer actually.
其实我曾经是一名工程师。
But, both my engineering brain and my PM brain, I love the idea of killing stuff that's useless, fixing, making code cleaner, and better, and more durable.
但是，无论是我的工程大脑还是我的 PM 大脑，我都喜欢删除无用的东西、修复、使代码更干净、更好、更耐用的想法。
In reality, very hard for companies to prioritize this thing.
事实上，公司很难确定这件事的优先顺序。
Is there anything you found that helps you do that?
您发现有什么可以帮助您做到这一点吗？
You mentioned hack days and weeks are one part of that.
你提到黑客日和黑客周是其中的一部分。
Probably helps that Toby's an engineer and he understands the value of this stuff.
托比是一名工程师，他了解这些东西的价值，这可能会有所帮助。
But I guess, for folks that want to do this more, any advice?
但我想，对于那些想要更多这样做的人，有什么建议吗？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah.
法尔汉·塔瓦：是的。
So actually, when we're building something, we think of it in one of three buckets.
所以实际上，当我们构建某些东西时，我们会从三个方面之一来考虑它。
We're like, "Are you building an experiment, a feature, or infrastructure?" And, once you bucket things, you can say, "Oh, it's an experiment." You're like, "Cool.
我们会问，“你是在构建一个实验、一个功能还是基础设施？”而且，一旦你把东西装进桶里，你就可以说，“哦，这是一个实验。”你会说，“酷。
This is not infra.
这不是下文。
This is like, we're trying something to learn." And, by the way, that might turn into an experiment or infra, but it starts off as an experiment.
这就像，我们正在尝试学习一些东西。”顺便说一句，这可能会变成一个实验或基础设施，但它是从一个实验开始的。
Now, if you're building a feature, a feature is basically you're taking advantage of an existing piece of infra, right?
现在，如果您正在构建一个功能，那么该功能基本上就是您正在利用现有的基础设施，对吗？
So, token gating is the example I gave.
所以，令牌门控就是我给出的例子。
If you could now build that in one hour, you would probably say, "Oh, we have the right infra below it."
如果您现在可以在一小时内构建它，您可能会说，“哦，我们在它下面有正确的基础设施。”
Farhan Thawar: But if you did what Toby does, which is, he's like, "Here's the infra I wish existed.
Farhan Thawar：但是如果你做了托比所做的事情，那就是，他会说，“这是我希望存在的基础设施。
Here's the feature.
这是这个功能。
The feature might be quick to build, but now I have to go and build the infra." You're now slotting yourself into infra land, which is like, that could take longer, but you're now enabling it for a bunch of use cases.
该功能可能很快就能构建，但现在我必须去构建基础设施。”你现在将自己置于基础设施中，这可能需要更长的时间，但你现在正在为一堆用例启用它。
You don't have to think about it at once, because you may have people using your API in a different way.
您不必立即考虑它，因为可能有人以不同的方式使用您的 API。
Farhan Thawar: So, I think you have to slot yourself.
Farhan Thawar：所以，我认为你必须给自己定位。
Now, how do people get into this mode?
现在，人们如何进入这种模式？
It is super, super hard.
这是超级、超级难。
And, I would say, Toby is the secret sauce here, because he pushes us to think about things as infra almost all the time.
而且，我想说，托比是这里的秘密武器，因为他几乎总是促使我们从基础上思考事情。
I mean, one of the things that annoys me the most probably is that I'll always come to him and say, "Hey, we can do A or B." And he looks at me and he goes, "You know what I'm going to say, right?" I'm like, "You're going to say go back and generate more options." Because he doesn't like those.
我的意思是，最让我恼火的事情之一可能是我总是来找他说：“嘿，我们可以做 A 或 B。”他看着我，说道：“你知道我要说什么，对吧？”我想，“你会说回去并产生更多选择。”因为他不喜欢那些。
"I don't like A or B.
“我不喜欢A或B。
Come back when you have something else." Right?
等你还有事再回来吧。”正确的？
Actually, maybe I'll tell you a little anecdote.
事实上，也许我会告诉你一些轶事。
He has a story where he says, "There are unlimited amount of wrong options for any problem.
他有一个故事，他说：“任何问题都有无数错误的选择。
There's probably 10,000 right options, but everybody stops at the first right one, instead of what you should be spending all your time on, because the options that don't work, you're not going to spend time on.
可能有 10,000 个正确的选项，但每个人都会停在第一个正确的选项上，而不是你应该花所有时间做的事情，因为那些不起作用的选项，你不会花时间。
But you have to figure out which of the 10,000 options is the right one and spend time in what are all these right options?
但你必须弄清楚这 10,000 个选项中哪一个是正确的，并花时间研究这些正确的选项是什么？
Don't just stop at the first one."
不要只停留在第一个。”
Farhan Thawar: And so, when I come to and say, "A or B." I'm picking two of the 10,000.
Farhan Thawar：所以，当我醒来说“A 或 B”时。我从 10,000 个中挑选两个。
And he's like, "That's not what I...
他就像是，“这不是我...
Go back and generate more options, because those are not the optimal ones." So, he is quite the philosopher on these things.
返回并生成更多选项，因为这些都不是最佳选项。”所以，他在这些事情上是一位哲学家。
And it does really change the way the company works, because he'll push you on these things.
这确实改变了公司的运作方式，因为他会推动你做这些事情。
And then, we over time learn to spot the same patterns.
然后，随着时间的推移，我们学会发现相同的模式。
And I learned to push my team on infra, and deleting code, and making things simple, because by the way, who doesn't want to get free stuff?
我学会了推动我的团队发展基础设施，删除代码，让事情变得简单，因为顺便说一句，谁不想获得免费的东西？
Right?
正确的？
Free performance, free, easy to navigate code base, free maintainability, free resiliency,, because now, we went and did the hard work of deleting.
免费的性能、免费、易于浏览的代码库、免费的可维护性、免费的弹性，因为现在，我们去做了删除的艰苦工作。
It is hard.
这很难。
But that goes back to the beginning, right?
但这又回到了开始，对吧？
Choose the hard thing.
选择困难的事情。
Don't just build the feature-
不要只是构建功能 -
Farhan Thawar: The beginning, right?
Farhan Thawar：开始，对吧？
Choose the hard thing.
选择困难的事情。
Don't just build the feature, go make the feature easy to build.
不要只是构建功能，还要让功能易于构建。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like there's just more and more good stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得好东西越来越多。
What else is there that might be helpful to folks while you're thinking about it?
当您思考这个问题时，还有什么可能对人们有帮助的？
And interesting, I was reading your tweet where you shared a lot of this advice, and you mentioned this briefly, but I think it's important with pair programming, one of the benefits is there's no multitasking.
有趣的是，我在读你的推文，你分享了很多这样的建议，你简短地提到了这一点，但我认为结对编程很重要，好处之一是没有多任务处理。
You're not checking Twitter, Slack while you're working because you're there being watched.
你工作时不会查看 Twitter、Slack，因为你在那里受到监视。
And I could see why that is more productive just innately.
我明白为什么这天生就更有成效。
Farhan Thawar: Oh no, for sure.
Farhan Thawar：哦，不，当然。
Again, like underhand or free throws not only looks dumb, it feels dumb.
再说一次，就像低手或罚球一样，不仅看起来很愚蠢，而且感觉很愚蠢。
People don't...
人们不...
They feel like they're wasting time sitting beside somebody and being like, "Well, I could be on my computer doing this thing." But together they are building a machine.
他们觉得自己坐在某人旁边是在浪费时间，然后说：“好吧，我可以在电脑上做这件事。”但他们正在一起建造一台机器。
Do you ever read the Undoing Project, which is about Amos Tversky and Daniel Kahneman, the famous philosopher.
你读过《毁灭计划》吗？这是关于阿莫斯·特沃斯基和著名哲学家丹尼尔·卡尼曼的故事。
Farhan Thawar: Behavioral economist.
Farhan Thawar：行为经济学家。
Michael Lewis.
迈克尔·刘易斯.
Exactly.
确切地。
And he said the famous line was "Alone, we're okay, but together, we're a genius." Right?
他说那句著名的台词是“独自一人，我们还好，但在一起，我们就是天才。”正确的？
That's a pair programmer.
那是一对程序员。
That's like two people.
这就像两个人一样。
You're like, "Ah, we're okay.
你会说：“啊，我们没事。
But together, we're a genius." And that's exactly what pair programming is.
但在一起，我们就是天才。”这正是结对编程的本质。
And hopefully me plus an LLM is a genius as well, but that's the genesis of that thinking.
希望我加上法学硕士也是一个天才，但这就是这种想法的起源。
So I would say another thing that helps us create intensity is demo culture.
所以我想说另一件帮助我们创造强度的事情是演示文化。
So as part of the GSD updates, hopefully we encourage people to share high fidelity updates, which is not just imagery, but actually a demo.
因此，作为 GSD 更新的一部分，我们希望鼓励人们分享高保真更新，这不仅仅是图像，而且实际上是一个演示。
One of the things that can go wrong with just their screenshots is you don't really get the full experience.
仅使用屏幕截图可能会出现问题的原因之一是您无法真正获得完整的体验。
You can't tell how slow things are or whatever, but with a demo, so you can put a link.
你无法判断事情有多慢或其他什么，但有一个演示，所以你可以放一个链接。
We have this tool called Spin, which is an internal development environment like a cloud dev environment where you can say, "Hey, click here to try this on Spin, and then you can try it and you can see how it works."
我们有一个名为 Spin 的工具，它是一个类似于云开发环境的内部开发环境，您可以在其中说，“嘿，单击此处在 Spin 上尝试这个，然后您可以尝试一下，您可以看到它是如何工作的。”
Farhan Thawar: Or they say, "Turn on a beta flag in your own store and then try it." And so this short circuits a lot of misunderstandings, because you're like "I'm going to try it." And you're not waiting until the end, especially with a beta flag.
Farhan Thawar：或者他们说，“在你自己的商店中打开测试标志，然后尝试一下。”所以这会缩短很多误解，因为你会说“我要尝试一下”。而且你不会等到最后，尤其是在有测试版标志的情况下。
You're like, "Hey, it's in my store.
你会说，“嘿，它在我的店里。
I just realized that I went in and now this page takes 20 seconds to load.
我刚刚意识到我进去了，现在这个页面需要 20 秒才能加载。
Is that what you expect?" You're like, "Oh, we didn't find this use case." You're going to learn that much more quickly.
这就是你所期望的吗？”你会说，“哦，我们没有找到这个用例。”你会学得更快。
Farhan Thawar: And that creates, again, intensity on the fidelity of the feedback you're getting because famously, some of our PM team will create a friction log.
Farhan Thawar：这会再次提高您获得的反馈的保真度，因为众所周知，我们的一些 PM 团队会创建摩擦日志。
They'll be like, "I am walking.." They'll just create a screen share, create a video and go, "I'm walking through.
他们会说，“我正在步行......”他们只需创建一个屏幕共享，创建一个视频，然后说，“我正在步行。
I turn on the beta flag, I'm walking through this experience.
我打开测试版标志，我正在经历这段经历。
Here's my feedback on the experience." And you're getting this high fidelity throughput coming back to you that you're like, "Okay, let's fix these things for next week's iteration and then share another beta flag and say, 'Okay, try it now.
这是我对这次经历的反馈。”当你得到高保真吞吐量时，你会想，“好吧，让我们在下周的迭代中修复这些问题，然后分享另一个测试标志并说，‘好吧，现在就试试吧。
Try it now.
现在就试试吧。
Try it now.'" And so you're not debating about status reports, you're kind of debating about the experience.
现在就试试吧。’”所以你不是在争论状态报告，而是在争论体验。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I'm trying to think broadly all the things you've shared, kind of how they fit together that allow you to move this fast.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我试图广泛地思考你所分享的所有内容，以及它们如何组合在一起，让你能够如此快速地行动。
And I just looked up a few stats to give people a sense of just the size of the company today and how successful it has been as they hear the stuff we're talking about.
我只是查了一些统计数据，让人们在听到我们正在谈论的内容时了解公司今天的规模以及它的成功程度。
So you guys are about 11,000 employees, something like that according to the Googles.
根据 Google 的说法，你们大约有 11,000 名员工。
And you're hitting not necessarily all-time highs on market cap because COVID gave you guys a big boost for a while, but you're kind of coming back to this insane valuation that you all had during COVID.
你的市值不一定会创历史新高，因为新冠疫情在一段时间内给你们带来了巨大的推动，但你会回到新冠疫情期间的疯狂估值。
So it's essentially all-time highs at a 10,000 plus person company moving really fast, shipping constantly.
因此，对于一家拥有 10,000 多人的公司来说，这基本上是历史最高水平，公司发展速度非常快，不断发货。
People love the product.
人们喜欢这个产品。
And it feels like one key of what you're describing is essentially this operating rhythm that creates these check-ins that keep people moving and focused on the right sorts of tools and getting them quick feedback if they're moving in the wrong direction.
感觉你所描述的一个关键本质上是这种操作节奏，它创建了这些检查，使人们不断前进并专注于正确的工具类型，并在他们朝着错误的方向前进时获得快速反馈。
Farhan Thawar: And having the leaders pair with those people on those problems, not just checking in, but actually pairing with them on the problems that they're facing.
Farhan Thawar：让领导者在这些问题上与这些人结对，不仅仅是检查，而是实际上与他们结对解决他们面临的问题。
So you get both the crafters who are working on the stuff and the leaders who may have broader context working together to kind of unblock.
因此，你可以让从事这些工作的工匠和可能拥有更广泛背景的领导者共同努力，以消除障碍。
Lenny Rachitsky: And it's so interesting that it's like, again, people often are often like, "We don't need meetings.
Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣，人们常常会说，“我们不需要会议。
Get rid of all the meetings." You guys do that, but also, there's a lot of power in strategic meetings and check-ins.
摆脱所有的会议。”你们这样做了，而且，战略会议和签到也有很大的力量。
Another kind of bucket is just the engineering environment, engineers working with engineers, pair programming, things like that.
另一种桶就是工程环境，工程师与工程师一起工作，结对编程，诸如此类的事情。
There's a tool you mentioned for pair programming, Tuple, I think.
我认为您提到了一个用于结对编程的工具，Tuple。
Farhan Thawar: Tuple.
Farhan Thawar：元组。
Yeah.
是的。
It's funny because we use it exclusively, but we actually have this line internally, we call it, Shopify should be a crafters' paradise.
这很有趣，因为我们专门使用它，但我们内部实际上有这条线，我们称之为，Shopify 应该是工匠的天堂。
It should be the place where crafters come to practice their craft and get better at their craft.
它应该是工匠们练习手艺并提高手艺的地方。
Obviously, resonates from a lot of the engineering crafters, but it's not only engineering, it's UX and PM and ML, all the places where you'd want those people to actually have a great experience.
显然，这引起了许多工程工匠的共鸣，但这不仅仅是工程，还有用户体验、项目管理和机器学习，所有你希望这些人真正拥有良好体验的地方。
We want them to come to Shopify because we believe this is the best place for that.
我们希望他们来到 Shopify，因为我们相信这是最好的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。
I just wrote a note down of just how you set up your teams for success.
我刚刚写下了您如何组建团队以取得成功的注释。
Oh, just avoid distractions.
噢，只要避免干扰就可以了。
So I think the pair programming helps the workspace, workplace shift from Slack helps.
所以我认为结对编程有助于工作空间，工作场所从 Slack 的转变也有帮助。
I think you're also very firm on their working hours.
我想你对他们的工作时间也很严格。
You basically don't let...
基本上你不让...
Farhan Thawar: No, not really.
Farhan Thawar：不，不完全是。
Yeah.
是的。
We're not super firm on working hours from that perspective, but we do have a lot of people on East Coast time zones.
从这个角度来看，我们对工作时间并不是非常严格，但我们确实有很多人在东海岸时区。
A lot of stuff happens then, but we do have people all over the world.
那时会发生很多事情，但我们确实有来自世界各地的人。
But I did mention we do have the check-ins and the six-week reviews on the cadence.
但我确实提到我们确实进行了签到和为期六周的节奏审查。
So that six week cycle does give you a little bit of the, what did you get done and are you blocked mentality.
因此，这六周的周期确实让你了解了你做了什么以及你的心态是否受阻。
And you can expect coming in a couple of times and being like, "Hey, we didn't get a lot done being unblocked." For you to change your approach to go, "Okay, I don't want to go to another review where we didn't get a lot done." So what am I doing this time to make sure we unlock a lot of progress?
你可能会进来几次，然后说：“嘿，我们在解除封锁方面并没有做很多事情。”如果你要改变你的方法，“好吧，我不想再去进行另一次我们没有完成很多工作的审查。”那么这次我要做什么来确保我们取得很多进展呢？
And that check-in can give you that ammo to be like, "Let's do this this time."
这种签到可以给你这样的弹药，“这次我们就这样做吧。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And you're also remote first as a company.
Lenny Rachitsky：作为一家公司，您首先也是远程的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Which I think is especially cool.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这特别酷。
Now a lot of companies are going back to not remote.
现在很多公司都回到不偏远的状态。
You guys are staying remote.
你们都保持着遥远的距离。
Why do you guys decide to do that?
你们为什么决定这样做？
What have you seen as a big benefit of that?
您认为这样做的最大好处是什么？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, so we have this remote, so I like to call it 90% remote or 95% remote because we have these intentional IRL experiences.
Farhan Thawar：是的，所以我们有这个远程，所以我喜欢称其为 90% 远程或 95% 远程，因为我们有这些有意的 IRL 体验。
So every summer, we just started last year.
所以每年夏天，我们都是去年才开始的。
Sorry, this year.
对不起，今年。
We're doing this thing called Shopify Summit where we bring the whole company together, get together and it's a combination of talks plus hack days and it's a come together experience like food and parties and bands.
我们正在做一个名为 Shopify Summit 的活动，我们将整个公司聚集在一起，聚会，这是会谈和黑客日的结合，这是一种像食物、聚会和乐队一样的聚会体验。
And it's a super fun way to re-energize and rebuild your trust battery over time.
随着时间的推移，这是一种超级有趣的方式，可以重新激活并重建您的信任电池。
And then we have this thing called bursts, which is, "Hey, you want to work on a problem?
然后我们有一种叫做突发的东西，即“嘿，你想解决一个问题吗？
You need to prototype, you need to hack." People can just say, "Hey, I'm starting a burst.
你需要原型，你需要破解。”人们可以说：“嘿，我开始爆发了。
We're going to have five people.
我们将有五个人。
We're all going to go to Ottawa or Toronto or Montreal or somewhere else and we're going to talk about this problem and get together."
我们都会去渥太华、多伦多、蒙特利尔或其他地方，讨论这个问题并聚在一起。”
Farhan Thawar: And so a combination of those two things mean throughout the year, you can recharge.
Farhan Thawar：所以这两件事的结合意味着你全年都可以充电。
We have the trust battery notion, which is how much trust can you have between people and it can deplete over time if you're remote.
我们有信任电池的概念，即人与人之间的信任程度，如果你距离遥远，信任可能会随着时间的推移而耗尽。
So then we have offices which are like, come in if you want.
所以我们的办公室就像是，如果你愿意就进来吧。
Like I mentioned, I come in once a week and now Toby moved to Toronto, so now I'm in three days a week.
就像我提到的，我每周来一次，现在托比搬到了多伦多，所以现在我每周来三天。
But it's like if you want to come in, you don't have to, right?
但如果你想进来，你就不必进来，对吧？
Today, I work from home, but tomorrow, I'm going in.
今天我在家工作，但明天我就要上班了。
And that allows you, again, to have those random interactions and allow you to feel like, yeah, we're 90 plus percent remote.
这再次让你能够进行随机互动，并让你感觉，是的，我们百分之九十以上都是遥远的。
But I would say the main reason is we want to hire the best people in the world and those people can be anywhere and just happens to be that not all of them are near an office.
但我想说，主要原因是我们想雇用世界上最优秀的人才，而这些人可以在任何地方，只是碰巧并非所有人都在办公室附近。
Farhan Thawar: But again, with the bursting, here's a good example.
Farhan Thawar：但是，随着爆发，这里有一个很好的例子。
For Black Friday, Cyber Monday, I encouraged all engineering leadership to come to Toronto.
在黑色星期五和网络星期一，我鼓励所有工程领导层来到多伦多。
We're all going to be in the office watching the graphs.
我们都会在办公室里观看图表。
And then for hack days, I try to get people to go to the ports, which we have four of them, Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, and New York, which again are come in if you want, but then get that IRL.
然后在黑客日，我试着让人们去港口，我们有四个港口，多伦多、蒙特利尔、渥太华和纽约，如果你愿意的话，也可以进来，但然后去IRL。
And so it's kind of a little bit of a combo.
所以这有点像是一个组合。
I wouldn't call it hybrid though because you don't really have every Friday you come in or don't come in.
但我不会称之为混合，因为你并不是每个星期五都有来或不来的情况。
It's more like, come in if you want.
更像是，如果你愿意就进来吧。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's so many things to talk about.
Lenny Rachitsky：有很多事情要谈。
This trust battery metaphor by the way is awesome.
顺便说一下，这个信任电池的比喻非常棒。
I've learned to use it also.
我也学会了使用它。
And again, it's just basically everyone, your trust with someone is like, think of it as a battery that can deplete and grow and you should try to charge it up when you can and then use that charge over time.
再说一次，基本上每个人都一样，你对某人的信任就像是，把它想象成一块可以耗尽和增长的电池，你应该在可以的时候尝试给它充电，然后随着时间的推移使用该电量。
Farhan Thawar: And it can be strategic by the way.
Farhan Thawar：顺便说一下，这可以是战略性的。
I've seen people use it as a...
我见过人们用它作为...
I'm pretty sure Toby says he starts everyone at 50% and then he gets to know you.
我很确定托比说他让每个人都从 50% 开始，然后他就会了解你。
And then I've seen people use it as the opposite, saying, "Hey, look, this team is hard charging.
然后我看到人们用相反的方式说：“嘿，看，这支球队正在努力冲锋。
I'm going to start you at a hundred.
我将从一百开始给你。
Assume that you already have high trust, do the things, and only if you are doing things that are off alignment, does your trust battery deplete." So I've seen people use it, the terminology as a shortcut way to figure out how to work with somebody.
假设你已经拥有高度的信任，去做这些事情，只有当你做的事情不一致时，你的信任电池才会耗尽。”所以我看到人们使用这个术语作为弄清楚如何与某人合作的捷径。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love just how first principles you all are, and there are so many things are so unique to how you operate and clearly it's working.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你们的首要原则，你们的运作方式有很多事情都是独一无二的，而且显然它正在发挥作用。
And so I feel like we just keep going on and on.
所以我觉得我们只是继续前进。
I want to talk about hiring.
我想谈谈招聘的事。
I know you have some pretty unique perspectives on how to hire people that are awesome, but also, hire them quickly.
我知道您对如何聘用出色的人才有一些非常独特的观点，而且要快速聘用他们。
But before we get there, is there anything else that you think might be really valuable to share in terms of intensity, velocity, moving fast?
但在我们到达那里之前，您认为在强度、速度和快速移动方面还有什么可能真正有价值的东西可以分享吗？
Farhan Thawar: I think the personality of the leadership team is quite intense.
Farhan Thawar：我认为领导团队的个性相当强烈。
We have a lot of founders on the exec team, which are impatient, intense people by design.
我们的执行团队中有很多创始人，他们都是不耐烦、热情的人。
But even some of the non-founders are just accomplished people who tend to be pretty, we all have this attitude of impatience, and so maybe, I don't even know if that's a learned skill you can learn or if it just comes along with your personality, like genetics.
但即使是一些非创始人只是有成就的人，往往很漂亮，我们都有这种不耐烦的态度，所以也许，我什至不知道这是一个你可以学习的技能，还是它只是与你的个性有关，比如遗传。
But we typically, even at the leadership team, for example, we try to do, here's my weekly thread of all the things that are going on so that we can not only share, but also show progress on things.
但我们通常，即使是在领导团队中，例如，我们也会尝试这样做，这是我每周对正在发生的事情进行的讨论，这样我们不仅可以分享，还可以展示事情的进展。
And then someone can jump in and say, "Oh, this thing you're doing, it relates to my thing that I'm doing over here." It creates this notion of, there's a lot going on all the time and we want to keep the vibes, keep the energy high.
然后有人可以插嘴说：“哦，你正在做的这件事，它与我在这里做的事情有关。”它创造了这样一种观念：一直都有很多事情发生，我们想要保持这种氛围，保持高能量。
So a lot of high energy intense people.
所以有很多精力充沛的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: It reminds me while I was at Airbnb, it felt like no matter how well things are going, it always felt like Brian especially is just pedal to the metal.
Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起了在 Airbnb 的时候，感觉无论事情进展得多么顺利，尤其是 Brian 总是感觉自己只是全力以赴。
No matter how well things are going, it's not going well enough.
无论事情进展得多么顺利，都还不够顺利。
How do we go faster?
我们怎样才能走得更快？
How do we do more?
我们如何做得更多？
Farhan Thawar: Well, I would actually go further.
Farhan Thawar：嗯，我实际上会走得更远。
I think if you don't have two or three big projects that are on fire, you're probably not pushing hard enough because you're not really trying things that are outside of your...
我认为，如果你没有两三个火热的大项目，那么你可能没有足够努力，因为你没有真正尝试超出你的范围的事情......
If everything's going well, are you really taking the risks you need to be taking?
如果一切顺利，您真的承担了需要承担的风险吗？
So I think you have to over-rotate a bit and there should be a few things on fire at all times, not because you should create that, but it should just happen because you're stretching into new things that potentially or you're going faster than you should have, or there's a new leader you've counted on early because all these things that should create this thing of it might work.
所以我认为你必须过度轮换，并且始终应该有一些东西在燃烧，不是因为你应该创造它，而是它应该发生，因为你正在扩展到可能的新事物，或者你的进展速度比你应该做的更快，或者有一个你很早就依赖的新领导者，因为所有这些应该创造这个东西的东西可能会起作用。
And so you want to have a little bit of chaos at the edge.
所以你希望边缘有一点混乱。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
And it may sound stressful and why would I want that?
这听起来可能很有压力，为什么我会想要这样呢？
Why would I want to work with chaos and fires everywhere?
为什么我要在到处都是混乱和火灾的地方工作？
But in reality, if you don't, your business is unlikely to become incredibly successful and that is even more stressful and painful.
但实际上，如果你不这样做，你的企业就不可能取得令人难以置信的成功，这甚至会带来更大的压力和痛苦。
Farhan Thawar: Correct.
法尔汉·塔瓦：正确。
Yeah, it's like the opposite, right?
是的，情况正好相反，对吧？
It's like this idea of people feel like the comfort gives you stability, and really the uncomfort gives you stability because now you're constantly learning and that makes you more robust against things that could come across.
就像人们感觉舒适给你带来稳定一样，而实际上不舒适给你带来稳定，因为现在你在不断学习，这让你对可能遇到的事情更加坚强。
Lenny Rachitsky: Choosing the harder path, some might say.
Lenny Rachitsky：有些人可能会说，选择了更艰难的道路。
Okay, let's talk about hiring.
好吧，我们来谈谈招聘吧。
You have some really interesting takes on hiring.
您对招聘有一些非常有趣的看法。
One that I've heard about is that you don't like the interview process.
我听说你不喜欢面试过程。
You kind of like to prefer not to interview and do something instead.
你有点喜欢不接受采访，而是做一些事情。
Talk about that.
谈谈那个。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah.
法尔汉·塔瓦：是的。
So throughout my career, what I've noticed is that, and I'm sure everybody, this is a dirty little secret, right?
所以在我的整个职业生涯中，我注意到的是，我相信每个人，这是一个肮脏的小秘密，对吧？
Interviews are not a good predictor of performance.
面试并不能很好地预测绩效。
We know this.
我们知道这一点。
We know this from studies.
我们从研究中知道这一点。
We know this.
我们知道这一点。
Everybody at their company knows this, where somebody interviewed well, wasn't as good in the job or the opposite, didn't interview well and then came in and was phenomenal.
他们公司的每个人都知道这一点，有些人面试得很好，但工作表现不佳，或者相反，面试得不好，但进来后却表现出色。
One example I have from my startup right before we came to Shopify was I hired two people for machine learning.
在我们加入 Shopify 之前，我从我的初创公司得到的一个例子是，我雇佣了两个机器学习人员。
One was a PhD, taught at the university, was like, oh my god, no brainer, was also recommended by an employee.
一个是博士学位，在大学任教，就像，天哪，不用想，也是由员工推荐的。
We're like, "Oh my god, this person's going to be great." The other person was a dude I met at the coffee shop who had never had a software job but was just so interested in machine learning and person A, we let go within a few weeks because not a fit for our culture.
我们会说，“天哪，这个人会很棒的。”另一个人是我在咖啡店遇到的一个家伙，他从未从事过软件工作，但对机器学习和 A 非常感兴趣，我们在几周内就解雇了，因为不适合我们的文化。
Farhan Thawar: And person B was at our startup and is still at Shopify today and is a phenomenal machine learning engineer who literally at our Christmas party was like, "This is my first software job." We're like, "How?" It was just so cute.
Farhan Thawar：B 曾在我们的初创公司任职，至今仍在 Shopify，他是一位出色的机器学习工程师，他在我们的圣诞派对上说，“这是我的第一份软件工作。”我们会想，“怎么样？”真是太可爱了。
And we gave them both the shot.
我们给了他们两个机会。
The key was I didn't use the resume in either way to bias.
关键是我没有以任何方式使用简历来产生偏见。
We brought them both in.
我们把他们俩都带进来了。
We said, "Here's the environment." It was all pair programming at my startup.
我们说：“这就是环境。”我创业时都是结对编程。
And so they pair program, and actually as an aside, I really believe in pair programming when I made people work in pair programming with my own money.
所以他们结对编程，实际上，顺便说一句，当我让人们用我自己的钱进行结对编程时，我真的相信结对编程。
I paid for two people to be on one computer.
我花钱让两个人使用一台电脑。
So that's how you know...
所以这就是你知道的...
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, exactly.
Farhan Thawar：是的，完全正确。
Right.
正确的。
Less than half the code.
代码不到一半。
But anyway, so pairing.
但无论如何，就这样配对吧。
And it was pretty clear after just a few weeks, I would say let's say up to three months is the amount of time I give people, that person A wasn't going to work out than person B was.
几周后就很清楚了，我想说，假设我给人们最多三个月的时间，A 人的锻炼效果不会比 B 人好。
So what I really like to do is use this race car analogy.
所以我真正喜欢做的就是用赛车来比喻。
If I told you, "Hey, I want to go hire the best race car driver," there's not really that many questions you could ask them except for put them in the car.
如果我告诉你，“嘿，我想聘请最好的赛车手”，除了把他们放进车里之外，你真的没有太多问题可以问他们。
And so the same thing happens with us is that of course, we have to do interviews, but we do really spend time in the 30, 60, 90 days to make sure that the thing that they are bringing actually lines up with what we need at Shopify.
同样的事情也发生在我们身上，当然，我们必须进行面试，但我们确实在 30、60、90 天内花了时间来确保他们带来的东西实际上符合我们 Shopify 的需求。
And you should also be transparent with people because if it's not a fit, it's actually good for them and you to figure that out as quickly as possible because they could be amazing somewhere else.
你也应该对人们保持透明，因为如果不适合，这实际上对他们有好处，你尽快弄清楚这一点，因为他们可能在其他地方表现出色。
Farhan Thawar: We mentioned the chaotic environment and fast moving environment Shopify is, that's not for everyone, but that's okay, right?
Farhan Thawar：我们提到了 Shopify 的混乱环境和快速变化的环境，这并不适合所有人，但没关系，对吧？
We're not looking for...
我们不是在寻找...
We've talked about that we want to be as the best 10,000 person company in the world.
我们已经谈到我们希望成为世界上最好的 10,000 名员工的公司。
We're not looking for millions of people.
我们不是在寻找数百万人。
We just need the best 10,000.
我们只需要最好的 10,000 名。
And so if it's not a fit, it's in your interest and our interest to figure that out quickly so that you can go somewhere where you will be amazing and for us to have the people who will be amazing at Shopify.
因此，如果不合适，快速解决这个问题符合您和我们的利益，这样您就可以去一个让您发挥出色的地方，同时我们也可以拥有在 Shopify 发挥出色的人才。
And so job trials, I'm a huge fan of, which leads me to intern programs, what a great interview process because you now have real work product from somebody for four months.
所以，我非常喜欢工作试验，这让我参加了实习生项目，这是一个很棒的面试过程，因为你现在可以从某人那里得到四个月的真实工作成果。
They get to see what it's like to be at Shopify for four months.
他们可以体验在 Shopify 工作四个月的感觉。
We get to see what it's like for them to be at Shopify for four months, and that can turn into a full-time gig.
我们可以看看他们在 Shopify 工作四个月的感觉如何，这可以变成一份全职工作。
Farhan Thawar: And that's a great interview process because you literally know exactly.
Farhan Thawar：这是一个很棒的面试过程，因为你确实知道得很清楚。
You don't have to...
你不必...
I'll give you a funny example.
我给你举一个有趣的例子。
I think I've heard a company where, "Oh, we have an intern process and then afterwards, we interview them for full-time." I'm like, "What are you going to learn from let's say even eight hours of interviews that you're not going to have learned from four months of real work experience?" And so there's just things like that.
我想我听说过一家公司，“哦，我们有一个实习生流程，然后我们对他们进行全职面试。”我想，“你能从八个小时的面试中学到什么，而你不会从四个月的实际工作经验中学到什么？”所以就有这样的事情。
You just got to look at the work product.
你只需要看看工作产品。
And so I'm a big fan of job trials, and in my previous companies, like you mentioned, I almost didn't interview anybody.
所以我非常喜欢工作试验，在我之前的公司里，就像你提到的，我几乎没有面试过任何人。
I almost just said, "Come in and work." And it allowed us...
我几乎只是说：“进来工作吧。”它让我们...
We had a much higher in the first 90 days, like 20% attrition before 90 days because it just didn't work out.
我们在前 90 天的流失率要高得多，比如 90 天之前有 20% 的人员流失，因为它根本没有成功。
But those after 90 days, we had less than 1% attrition because they knew exactly what they're getting into and we knew exactly how they were going to fit.
但 90 天后，我们的员工流失率不到 1%，因为他们清楚地知道自己要做什么，而我们也清楚地知道他们将如何适应。
Lenny Rachitsky: So in terms of the hiring process, you're still at Shopify.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以就招聘流程而言，您仍然在 Shopify。
You're interviewing people, they're doing technical evaluations, things like that.
你正在采访人们，他们正在做技术评估，诸如此类的事情。
But it sounds like there's a very strong setting of expectations.
但听起来人们的期望非常强烈。
"We will hire you, but we'll actually clarify if this is a good fit in the first 30, 60, 90 days and we're going to do...
“我们会雇用你，但实际上我们会在前 30、60、90 天内澄清这是否合适，然后我们会做……
We may let you go and there's a good chance we may let you go." Is that just the way you set things up?
我们可能会让你走，而且很有可能让你走。”这就是你设置事情的方式吗？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, I think the way to think about, it's more like we want to make the interview process as close to the real job as possible because by doing that, we can likely assess the skills that you have in your interview closer to what's happening in the job.
Farhan Thawar：是的，我认为这样的思考方式更像是我们希望使面试过程尽可能接近真实的工作，因为通过这样做，我们可以评估您在面试中所拥有的技能，使其更接近工作中发生的情况。
So that's one.
这就是其中之一。
Two, we have this interview step called the life story where we try to figure out if, are all the experiences you've had up until now actually going to be...
第二，我们有一个称为生活故事的采访步骤，我们试图弄清楚你到目前为止所经历的所有经历是否真的会......
Does it show that you are a curious person with range?
这是否表明你是一个好奇心强、范围广的人？
Because if it does, that's likely more of someone who's going to be a fit.
因为如果确实如此，那很可能是一个更合适的人。
I had this famous line from somebody who said, "You know what I don't like about resumes?" I'm like, "What?" They go, "It tells you what you did, but it doesn't tell you why you did those things."
我听到有人说过这样一句名言：“你知道我不喜欢简历的哪一点吗？”我想，“什么？”他们说，“它告诉你你做了什么，但它没有告诉你为什么要做这些事情。”
Farhan Thawar: And it's such an interesting insight.
Farhan Thawar：这是一个非常有趣的见解。
Your resume should be a why, like why did you go from this company to this?
你的简历应该写一个原因，比如你为什么从这家公司转到这家公司？
That's the interesting part.
这是有趣的部分。
Not that you are a PM at Microsoft and a PM at Stripe.
并不是说您是 Microsoft 的 PM 和 Stripe 的 PM。
It's like, why did you switch from Stripe to Microsoft?
就像，你为什么从 Stripe 转向 Microsoft？
There's something interesting there.
那里有一些有趣的东西。
And so the life story is trying to pull that out.
因此，生活故事正试图将这一点拉出来。
It's like, why did you make the decisions?
就像，你为什么做出这些决定？
What did you do in your past that was interesting?
你过去做过什么有趣的事？
Are you curious?
你好奇吗？
I always thought...
我一直以为...
I read this great book, Range by David Epstein.
我读了大卫·爱泼斯坦写的这本伟大的书《Range》。
That book was maybe one of the hardest books for me to read in my life because every page I was like, "I don't believe it." I kept thinking I was a specialist.
那本书可能是我一生中最难读的书之一，因为每一页我都在说，“我不相信它。”我一直以为我是专家。
I kept turning the page going, "I don't like this data that keeps showing that generalists are better." And then by the end, I realized that I'm a generalist.
我不断地翻着这一页，“我不喜欢这些不断表明通才更优秀的数据。”最后，我意识到我是一个多面手。
It took me so long to realize, and funny for me because I ended up redesigning the compensation system for Shopify, even though I'm an engineer.
我花了很长时间才意识到这一点，这对我来说很有趣，因为我最终重新设计了 Shopify 的薪酬系统，尽管我是一名工程师。
Farhan Thawar: So I still thought of myself as an engineer through and through, even though I work on recruiting and HR and all these other things.
Farhan Thawar：所以我仍然认为自己是一名彻头彻尾的工程师，尽管我从事招聘、人力资源和所有其他工作。
But I think that that's what we're trying to tease.
但我认为这就是我们想要嘲笑的。
And then yes, in that first period, we actually have a survey that goes over Slack that says, "Hey, how happy are you with the person that you hired?" And that should, in conversation with the person, you should give them the feedback to figure out, "Hey, are there things you need to adjust to better fit in and make sure the expectations are set up?" But then also, together with the person, figure out, "Hey, if you're not feeling this, let's find you either a different role in the company or somewhere else because we want the people here to have high impact." But that person should have high impact somewhere, could be at Shopify, could be in the same role, could be in a different role, could be at a different company.
然后，是的，在第一阶段，我们实际上有一项针对 Slack 的调查，内容是：“嘿，你对你雇佣的人有多满意？”在与此人交谈时，您应该向他们提供反馈，以弄清楚：“嘿，您是否需要调整一些事情才能更好地适应并确保建立期望？”但随后，还要与这个人一起弄清楚，“嘿，如果你没有这种感觉，让我们在公司或其他地方为你找到一个不同的角色，因为我们希望这里的人能够产生巨大的影响。”但这个人应该在某个地方有很高的影响力，可以在 Shopify，可以担任相同的角色，可以担任不同的角色，也可以在不同的公司。
But that's a good thing for everybody.
但这对每个人来说都是一件好事。
Lenny Rachitsky: And then do you actually do work trials with new engineering hires, or is that something you aspire to do?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么您是否真的与新聘用的工程人员一起进行工作试验，或者这是您渴望做的事情？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, I would love to do it.
Farhan Thawar：是的，我很乐意这样做。
It's hard to do with the volume resumes we get, but we do do it at scale with the internship program.
我们收到的大量简历很难做到这一点，但我们确实通过实习计划大规模地做到了这一点。
So like 2025, we're going to hire a thousand interns, and that is going to give me a thousand job trials to pick the top X percent of those to come to Shopify full time.
因此，就像 2025 年一样，我们将雇用 1000 名实习生，这将给我进行 1000 次工作试验，以挑选其中最优秀的 X% 来全职加入 Shopify。
Lenny Rachitsky: So just to double-click on that, so you're hiring a thousand interns over the course of the year.
Lenny Rachitsky：双击该按钮，您就可以在一年内招聘 1000 名实习生。
That's a lot.
就这么多了。
And the idea there is these folks are actually useful building useful things, and it's an interview process for the internship.
我们的想法是，这些人实际上是有用的，可以构建有用的东西，这是实习的面试过程。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, I think it's two things.
Farhan Thawar：是的，我认为这是两件事。
One is some people look at an internship program as community service.
一是有些人将实习计划视为社区服务。
Let's give back to the community.
让我们回馈社会。
Let's hire early talent.
让我们聘请早期人才。
And I'm like, "Hold on a sec.
我说，“等一下。
Are you telling me I could hire a thousand people over the year?" And they will come to work with an LLM and a brain because they're growing up in the age of AI.
你是说我一年可以雇佣一千个人吗？”他们将带着法学硕士和大脑来工作，因为他们是在人工智能时代长大的。
They will be useful to us because they come from a different generation and they have, in our case in commerce, they have a different experience about shopping and AI and bots and chat and voice and all these things.
他们对我们很有用，因为他们来自不同的一代，就我们的商业而言，他们对购物、人工智能、机器人、聊天和语音以及所有这些东西有不同的体验。
They'll be useful to us.
它们会对我们有用。
We'll teach them some stuff as well.
我们也会教他们一些东西。
And then together we can decide if they might end up going somewhere else, in which case, we have the Shopify imprint on them going to whatever other company, which is I think a positive, or they might stay at Shopify and be useful over a longer period.
然后我们可以一起决定他们是否最终会去其他地方，在这种情况下，我们会在他们身上打上 Shopify 的印记，让他们去任何其他公司，我认为这是积极的，或者他们可能会留在 Shopify 并在更长的时间内发挥作用。
Farhan Thawar: It seems like win, win, win.
Farhan Thawar：看起来像是赢了、赢了、赢了。
The other thing that was cool is after I did that tweet, a bunch of other CTOs messaged me and said, "Hey, we're going to hire 1,001 interns to beat you guys." And I'm like, "Great." Just from that one tweet, if I can get the early talent ecosystem restarted here after a really tough last few years and layoffs, it's great for everybody because now they're realizing that they also realize that these people are super valuable and they bring together a completely different set of skills.
另一件很酷的事情是，在我发布那条推文后，其他一群 CTO 给我发消息说：“嘿，我们将雇用 1,001 名实习生来击败你们。”我说：“太棒了。”仅从那条推文来看，如果我能在经历了过去几年的艰难和裁员之后在这里重新启动早期人才生态系统，这对每个人来说都是一件好事，因为现在他们意识到他们也意识到这些人非常有价值，并且他们汇集了一套完全不同的技能。
And by the way, here's a secret in pair programming, interns will always be more intense than the full-time.
顺便说一句，结对编程的一个秘密是，实习生总是比全职员工更加紧张。
And so that also helps the flywheel of intensity go for it.
这也有助于强度飞轮的发挥。
Lenny Rachitsky: It all just keeps coming back.
Lenny Rachitsky：这一切都在不断地回归。
Did the internship program emerge out of this co-op system that Canadian schools have and a Waterloo has a big co-op program?
实习项目是从加拿大学校的带薪实习制度中产生的吗？滑铁卢大学有一个大型的带薪实习项目？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, I went to Waterloo.
Farhan Thawar：是的，我去了滑铁卢。
And so yeah, hint, hint.
所以是的，提示，提示。
So I went to Waterloo and I did co-op and I did intern programs there.
所以我去了滑铁卢，在那里做了带薪实习和实习生项目。
It was amazing.
太棒了。
What a great experience, because what ends up happening is you leave Waterloo with your degree, but also with two years of experience because I did six four-month work terms, 24 months, and you end up walking.
这是一次很棒的经历，因为最终你带着学位离开滑铁卢，同时也带着两年的经验，因为我做了六个为期四个月的工作，总共24个月，你最终还是步行了。
I think one of the big parts of it is just interview skills because I interviewed for 10 plus jobs every four months, and I did that six times.
我认为其中一个重要部分就是面试技巧，因为我每四个月面试 10 多个工作，而且我面试了六次。
And so you come out having done lots...
所以你出来的时候已经做了很多事情......
You have a lot of interview experience, but you also have work experience.
你有很多面试经验，但你也有工作经验。
And so just taking that to the next level, Shopify has always had interns.
因此，为了将这一点提升到一个新的水平，Shopify 一直都有实习生。
And what I felt like we needed to do was, again, restart this notion of early talent in the ecosystem.
我觉得我们需要做的是再次重启生态系统中早期人才的概念。
I would say one or two big differences with our intern program.
我想说与我们的实习生计划有一两个很大的区别。
Farhan Thawar: One is we're making them come in three days a week versus full remote.
Farhan Thawar：一是我们让他们每周三天内到达，而不是完全远程。
And the reason for that is, and we're doing it just in three offices right now in Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa.
原因是，我们目前只在蒙特利尔、多伦多和渥太华的三个办事处进行这项工作。
And the reason for that is because we want them to have a cohort because early talent is different than you and I who've been in the industry.
原因是我们希望他们拥有一批人才，因为早期人才与这个行业的你我不同。
We worked in office, we worked out of office.
我们在办公室工作，我们在办公室外工作。
We're more comfortable with navigating partnership discussions and talking to people in different companies.
我们更愿意进行合作伙伴讨论并与不同公司的人员交谈。
But these people have not.
但这些人却没有。
They may have never worked anywhere.
他们可能从未在任何地方工作过。
Farhan Thawar: And so to not have the IRL component would do them a disservice.
Farhan Thawar：因此，没有 IRL 组件会对他们造成伤害。
And so we specifically made it in those ports and the people are traveling by the way, they're moving to Montreal to do the internship.
因此，我们专门在这些港口进行了制作，人们顺便旅行，他们将搬到蒙特利尔进行实习。
It's great.
这很棒。
And then if you're a mentor or manager for one of the interns, you have to at least see them like IRL once a month.
如果你是其中一名实习生的导师或经理，你至少必须每月见他们一次。
So we're kind of making these experiences.
所以我们正在创造这些体验。
And of course, they'll have a cohort of dozens of people that will be with them along the way.
当然，他们会有数十人陪伴他们一路走来。
And so we think that'll just make their experience better.
所以我们认为这只会让他们的体验更好。
And of course, nothing like tapping someone on the shoulder and be like, "Have you seen this era before?" And so it's easier in an early talent situation.
当然，没有什么比拍拍某人的肩膀说“你以前见过这个时代了吗？”更好的了。因此，在早期人才的情况下，这会更容易。
And then of course over time, if they become full-time, they can still come to the office.
当然，随着时间的推移，如果他们成为全职员工，他们仍然可以来办公室。
It's come if you want, but they can also go full remote.
如果你愿意的话，它就会来，但他们也可以完全远程。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
For folks that don't know anything about these co-op programs briefly, it's just basically while you're in school, before you graduated, during the summer, you go work at a company.
对于那些对这些合作项目一无所知的人来说，基本上就是当你在学校的时候，在你毕业之前，在暑假期间，你去一家公司工作。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, it's during the year.
Farhan Thawar：是的，是在这一年里。
So what happens at Waterloo is, what I did was I did eight months of school at the beginning.
所以在滑铁卢发生的事情是，我所做的就是一开始就上了八个月的学校。
So two terms.
所以两个术语。
My first co-op term was summer, but then it was work, school, work, school, alternating for the whole rest of my time at Waterloo.
我的第一个带薪实习学期是暑假，但随后就是工作、上学、工作、上学，在滑铁卢剩下的时间里交替进行。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's like semesters alternating.
Lenny Rachitsky：就像学期交替一样。
Farhan Thawar: Exactly.
法尔汉·塔瓦：没错。
So every four months I did either school term or work time.
所以每四个月我要么上学期，要么上工作时间。
So I was doing work in January sometimes and September sometimes.
所以我有时在一月工作，有时九月工作。
And it was super good because again, it also allowed me to be super intense at school for four months and then go to super intense work experience for four months.
这非常好，因为它也让我在学校度过了四个月的超级紧张，然后又经历了四个月的超级紧张的工作经历。
But yeah, it's a model that...
但是，是的，这是一个模型...
I was just at Waterloo this week doing a talk, so I love that symbiotic relationship between Waterloo and the employers, by the way, not just Waterloo.
这周我刚刚在滑铁卢做演讲，所以我喜欢滑铁卢和雇主之间的共生关系，顺便说一句，不仅仅是滑铁卢。
Lots of schools do a summer program, UFT and others, lots of schools in the states.
很多学校都有暑期项目，UFT 等，很多州的学校都有。
Lenny Rachitsky: Fun fact.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣的事实。
So total tangent, I had a startup called Local Mine, started it in Montreal of all places.
所以完全切线，我有一家名为 Local Mine 的初创公司，在蒙特利尔的所有地方都开始了它。
I'm not Canadian, but moved there for various reasons.
我不是加拿大人，但由于各种原因搬到那里。
It was awesome.
太棒了。
And our first hire was actually from the co-op program.
我们的第一个雇员实际上来自合作项目。
I don't know if it was Waterloo, his name is Nick Adams.
我不知道是不是滑铁卢，他的名字叫尼克·亚当斯。
And he applied.
他申请了。
Just he saw our job posting, I think, and were like, "What is a co-op?" And he came to work and then he went back to school, and then we hired him, and then he ended up at Airbnb when we got a card.
我想，他只是看到了我们的招聘启事，然后问道：“什么是合作社？”他来上班，然后又回到学校，然后我们雇用了他，当我们拿到卡时，他最终加入了 Airbnb。
Farhan Thawar: There you go.
法尔汉·塔瓦：就这样吧。
So for us, actually, when I did my startup Helpful, I had one or two engineers, and then I actually literally just hired four interns because you hired them in February for May.
所以对我们来说，实际上，当我做我的创业公司 Helpful 时，我有一两个工程师，然后我实际上只雇佣了四名实习生，因为你在二月份雇佣了他们，五月份。
And because I was doing pair programming, I had to make sure I had four full times by then.
因为我正在进行结对编程，所以我必须确保那时我有四次全职时间。
So I hired the interns in anticipation of having the full times.
所以我雇佣了实习生，希望他们能有全职工作。
And I literally had, I think I was off by one week, so one intern had no pair for a week, but then after that in May, I had four full times, four interns, and then they paired the whole time.
我真的有，我想我休息了一个星期，所以一个实习生一周没有配对，但在那之后的五月，我有四次全职，四名实习生，然后他们一直配对。
Lenny Rachitsky: What a journey.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：真是一段旅程。
I want to talk about just one other topic real quick and then we'll wrap this up.
我想快速讨论另一个话题，然后我们就结束这个话题。
And it's around XtremeLabs.
它是围绕 XtremeLabs 进行的。
So there's a bunch of stuff here.
所以这里有很多东西。
It feels like it's just like this tech mafia of Canada that a lot of incredible people emerged out of, and there's a whole bunch of stuff we can talk about.
感觉就像加拿大的科技黑手党一样，其中涌现出了很多令人难以置信的人，我们可以谈论一大堆东西。
One fact I heard while you were there is you had a hundred reports, direct reports that reported to you.
当你在那里时我听到的一个事实是你有一百个报告，直接向你报告的报告。
Lenny Rachitsky: 120 direct reports feels like a complete nightmare to me.
Lenny Rachitsky：120 名直接下属对我来说简直就是一场噩梦。
Tell me why you decided to do that, if you'd recommend that for other people.
如果您向其他人推荐的话，请告诉我您为什么决定这样做。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, so what ended up happening there was we started off small.
Farhan Thawar：是的，所以最终发生的事情是我们从小规模开始。
It was 10 people.
一共10个人。
When I got to XtremeLabs, I wasn't the founder, but I was very early on and I just had everyone report to me.
当我进入 XtremeLabs 时，我不是创始人，但我很早就开始了，我只是让每个人都向我汇报。
And then as we grew, I just kept having those people report to me and I was trying to figure out, we talked about crafters and crafters paradise, this idea of people don't really...
然后随着我们的成长，我一直让那些人向我汇报，我试图弄清楚，我们谈论了工匠和工匠天堂，人们的这种想法并不真的......
Their managers are useful, but I was trying to figure out could I solve the problems that they needed their manager for in other ways?
他们的经理很有用，但我想知道我是否可以通过其他方式解决他们需要经理解决的问题？
So for example, what should I be working on?
例如，我应该做什么？
I was like, "Okay, well, we have product backlogs" or "I'm blocked on something," or "I need feedback on the product I'm building," or "I'm stuck on this technical problem." I tried to figure out ways to not have managers be the answers to those questions.
我当时想，“好吧，我们有产品积压”或“我在某些事情上受阻”，或“我需要有关我正在构建的产品的反馈”，或“我陷入了这个技术问题”。我试图找出不让管理者来回答这些问题的方法。
Farhan Thawar: I'm like, "There should be another answer." And so pair programming really helps you get unblocked quickly because you have another person that you can bounce technical ideas off of.
Farhan Thawar：我想，“应该有另一个答案。”因此，结对编程确实可以帮助您快速摆脱阻碍，因为您可以向另一个人提出技术想法。
Having a product backlog can tell you what to work on.
产品待办事项列表可以告诉您要做什么。
We had demos every week, demos internally, and then we had demos with the clients every week because we were a contract manufacturing for mobile.
我们每周都会进行演示，内部演示，然后每周都会与客户进行演示，因为我们是移动设备的合同制造商。
That gave them feedback on whether they were going in the right direction.
这为他们提供了关于他们是否在朝着正确方向前进的反馈。
We had set working hours, which made things super intense in the office.
我们规定了工作时间，这使得办公室里的事情变得异常紧张。
This is again like 2009 to 2013.
这又像2009年到2013年。
So all these things didn't really need a manager.
所以所有这些事情其实并不需要经理。
And what I realized was what the unblocking thing needed a manager.
我意识到疏通事情需要一个经理。
I'm blocked on this.
我对此受阻。
Well, I said, okay, if...
好吧，我说，好吧，如果...
I had all these directors.
我拥有所有这些导演。
I did two things famously.
我做了两件著名的事。
One, I had a lot of direct reports, and two, I did not do any scheduled one-on-ones because you can't have 120 direct reports and do a scheduled one-on-ones because you're never doing anything but one-on-ones.
第一，我有很多直接下属，第二，我没有进行任何预定的一对一，因为你不可能有 120 名直接下属并进行预定的一对一，因为你除了一对一之外什么都不做。
Farhan Thawar: So I said, "I'm going to be around a lot because I don't have a lot of one-on-ones.
Farhan Thawar：所以我说，“我会经常出现在身边，因为我没有很多一对一的机会。
So we can do unscheduled one-on-ones." And what that means is if you are blocked, actually there's a famous picture where I had this weird cube desk where it was like a circle almost in the middle of the whole floor of engineers.
这样我们就可以进行计划外的一对一。”这意味着如果你被挡住了，实际上有一张著名的照片，我有一张奇怪的立方体桌子，它就像一个圆圈，几乎在整个工程师楼层的中间。
And I was always there because I wasn't in a lot of meetings and people that were blocked, they could just come up to me.
我总是在那里，因为我没有参加很多会议，而且那些被封锁的人，他们可以来找我。
Actually, one cool thing about pair programming IRL is you can look across and just see if it's working or not.
实际上，IRL 结对编程的一个很酷的事情是你可以浏览并看看它是否有效。
Because if two people are intensely on the computer, you know it's working.
因为如果两个人都专注地使用计算机，你就知道它正在工作。
If one person is laying back or you're like, "It's not working," so you can just walk up to-
如果一个人躺着，或者你说，“这不起作用”，那么你可以走过去——
Farhan Thawar: It's working if one person is laying back or you're like, it's not working.
Farhan Thawar：如果一个人躺着，或者你觉得这不起作用，那么它就起作用了。
So you could just walk up to them and be like, "What's happening?" But they would come and ask me questions and I can unlock them.
所以你可以走到他们面前问：“发生了什么事？”但他们会过来问我问题，我就可以解锁它们。
Like, hey, we're blocked on this.
就像，嘿，我们在这方面被阻止了。
We don't have this API.
我们没有这个API。
We need money for this machine, whatever.
不管怎样，我们需要钱买这台机器。
And so the unscheduled one-on-ones ended up being a real clarifying thing for me.
因此，计划外的一对一最终对我来说是一件真正澄清的事情。
Because I did scheduled one-on-ones my whole career and I realized after leaving Microsoft for three years, I'm like, where are all those one-on-ones useful once a week for three years, right?
因为我在整个职业生涯中都安排了一对一的交流，而且在离开微软三年后我意识到，我想，三年来每周一次的所有这些一对一的交流在哪里有用，对吧？
A hundred and fifty one-on-ones.
一百五十次一对一。
Farhan Thawar: So the unscheduled ones were, though.
Farhan Thawar：不过，计划外的事情是这样的。
I was like, when I knocked on my manager's door and said, "I have this problem, those were important." So that's what I created at Xtreme.
当我敲开经理的门并说：“我遇到了这个问题，这些问题很重要。”这就是我在 Xtreme 所创造的。
And the 120 directors, it just grew over time.
120 名董事随着时间的推移不断增加。
I just didn't think I needed managers.
我只是认为我不需要经理。
So I was like, let me unblock these people on another way.
所以我想，让我用另一种方式解锁这些人。
And we came up with other things to systems to unblock them that didn't require a manager.
我们还为系统提出了其他方法来解锁它们，而无需管理员。
And I just also had a good memory.
我也有一个美好的回忆。
I knew exactly everyone's skills and compensation.
我清楚地知道每个人的技能和报酬。
I knew all that off the top of my head, so that helps.
我脑子里就知道这一切，所以这很有帮助。
Farhan Thawar: The thing that I broke was actually, this is Chamath.
Farhan Thawar：我打破的东西实际上是查马斯。
He came in and became our biggest investors.
他进来并成为我们最大的投资者。
He's obviously is a smart guy, but he said the right thing, which is not, this can never work, because then I would go into defense mode and explain to him why it would work.
他显然是个聪明人，但他说的是对的，但事实并非如此，这永远不会起作用，因为那样我就会进入防御模式并向他解释为什么它会起作用。
He just said to me, I'm not going to debate with you whether this works or not, but will it work at 400 people?
他只是对我说，我不会和你争论这是否有效，但它对 400 人有效吗？
And I said, probably not.
我说，可能不会。
He said, okay, so let's change it.
他说，好吧，那我们就改一下吧。
Farhan Thawar: And so we did then ended up putting a little bit more of a structure, but I made a few people directors and I forced them to have 40 direct reports each.
Farhan Thawar：所以我们最终建立了更多的结构，但我任命了一些人为董事，并强迫他们每人有 40 名直接报告。
I said, we're just going to make it still pretty flat.
我说，我们只是想让它仍然相当平坦。
And then that did end up working, because it still allowed them to use the system to unblock people versus having to do a one-on-one every week, or having to talk about things that potentially a system could unblock.
然后这确实起作用了，因为它仍然允许他们使用该系统来解锁人们，而不必每周进行一对一，或者必须谈论系统可能可以解锁的事情。
And so I tried to figure out ways to systematize things.
所以我试图找出使事物系统化的方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢它。
Just another example of doing things differently, not necessarily just, here's how it's done and I'm going to do it that way and experimenting with it.
这只是另一个以不同方式做事的例子，不一定只是，这就是它是如何完成的，我将这样做并进行试验。
Even if you knew, okay, maybe long term this isn't the way it's going to operate.
即使你知道，好吧，也许从长远来看，这并不是它的运作方式。
I imagine at Shopify you don't have 120 reports.
我想在 Shopify 你不会有 120 份报告。
Farhan Thawar: No, we have fourteen or something.
Farhan Thawar：不，我们有十四个左右。
We do have these guardrails where I think we say, Hey, in engineering you should have between eight and 20.
我们确实有这些护栏，我想我们会说，嘿，在工程领域，你应该有 8 到 20 个护栏。
There are definitely people who have more and people who have less.
肯定有人拥有的多，有人拥有的少。
But we do try to keep things as flat as possible, because we do believe that it doesn't make sense to have three people reporting to and then to somebody, and then they only have three people.
但我们确实努力让事情尽可能保持平稳，因为我们确实认为让三个人向另一个人汇报是没有意义的，然后他们就只有三个人了。
You just make a very deep hierarchy.
你只是建立了一个非常深的层次结构。
We actually do see, by the way, the farther you are from Toby, we can see things in the survey results.
顺便说一句，我们实际上确实看到，你离托比越远，我们就能在调查结果中看到一些东西。
The alignment gets out of whack, and so you do actually see that you want to be closer, you want to have a flatter org in general, and that can be achieved by just having more direct reports per level.
一致性变得不正常，所以你确实看到你想要更接近，你想要有一个总体上更扁平的组织，而这可以通过每个级别有更多的直接报告来实现。
Lenny Rachitsky: Makes sense.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：有道理。
Okay, final question before we get to our very exciting lightning round.
好的，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，这是最后一个问题。
We have this recurring segments that I call Fail Corner where generally people come on these podcasts, they share all their successes.
我们有一个反复出现的部分，我称之为“失败角落”，人们通常会出现在这些播客上，他们分享他们所有的成功。
Here's all the things that I've done, right.
这就是我所做的所有事情，对吧。
Here's all the big wins.
这是所有重大胜利。
And everyone feels like, oh man, I wish I was always successful people.
每个人都觉得，天哪，我希望我永远是成功的人。
When in reality, everyone that comes on has failed many times.
事实上，每个上场的人都失败过很多次。
Is there a story of a failure in your career that you could share that helps people see that even folks like you fail, and maybe what you learned from that experience?
您是否可以分享您职业生涯中失败的故事，帮助人们了解即使像您这样的人也会失败，也许您从这次经历中学到了什么？
Farhan Thawar: I have a few.
Farhan Thawar：我有一些。
I'll say one thing by the way, because I think I read this in Tim Ferriss's book or in the podcast where he said, create a failure resume and write everything down.
顺便说一句，因为我想我在蒂姆·费里斯的书或播客中读到过这一点，他说，创建一份失败的简历并写下所有内容。
And I would not recommend doing this because I did this and I got super...
我不建议这样做，因为我这样做了并且我得到了超级......
I'm like a high energy happy guy.
我就像一个精力充沛、快乐的人。
I wrote down, I have a note on my phone called Failure Resume, and I wrote down all the times I failed and it is depressing.
我写下来，我手机上有一张纸条，叫“失败恢复”，我写下了所有失败的次数，这很令人沮丧。
So I would not encourage people to do that, but I'm happy to tell you about a few instances.
所以我不会鼓励人们这样做，但我很高兴告诉你一些例子。
Farhan Thawar: So well, one is actually I've been laid off twice and people would not expect like, oh, I'm doing this thing and I've been laid off twice.
Farhan Thawar：好吧，实际上我已经被解雇了两次，人们不会想到，哦，我正在做这件事，而且我已经被解雇了两次。
And I think in both times it was the right thing, it was the right thing for the company, the right thing for me.
我认为这两次都是正确的事情，这对公司来说是正确的事情，对我来说也是正确的事情。
Farhan Thawar: And I kind of used that experience as a way to reevaluate and eventually came out with my framework of how I want to spend time.
Farhan Thawar：我利用这次经历来重新评估，并最终得出了我想要如何度过时间的框架。
But that's maybe a different story.
但这可能是一个不同的故事。
Farhan Thawar: I'll tell you about one at Shopify, the first week that I started, 2019, we were rebuilding our point of sale system, which now does billions of dollars of GMB.
Farhan Thawar：我会告诉你 Shopify 的一个例子，2019 年我开始工作的第一周，我们正在重建我们的销售点系统，该系统现在处理数十亿美元的 GMB。
But back then we were like, well, let's rebuild it with a new UX and a new technology platform.
但当时我们想，好吧，让我们用新的用户体验和新技术平台重建它。
And it was my first week and I'm the mobile guy, coming from Extreme Labs.
这是我的第一周，我是来自 Extreme Labs 的移动人员。
They're like, should we build this in React Native, or should we build this natively on the mobile platforms?
他们会问，我们应该在 React Native 中构建它，还是应该在移动平台上本地构建它？
And so I went through this evaluation, spent a lot of time, blah, blah, blah, and I came back with a hedged solution, which is kind of dumb.
所以我进行了这个评估，花了很多时间，等等，等等，然后我得到了一个对冲解决方案，这有点愚蠢。
I said, let's do iOS and Swift and let's do Android in React Native.
我说，让我们用 iOS 和 Swift 来做，让我们用 React Native 来做 Android。
And the reason I said that was I said, I want to learn about React Native and I think Android's the harder platform, so let's build that in React Native, but iOS on Swift because that guarantees us a product in market.
我这么说的原因是我说，我想了解 React Native，而且我认为 Android 是更难的平台，所以让我们在 React Native 中构建它，但在 Swift 上构建 iOS，因为这保证了我们在市场上的产品。
And we didn't have any React Native apps in market at the time.
当时我们市场上还没有任何 React Native 应用程序。
A year later we launched the iOS version and it was a huge success.
一年后，我们推出了 iOS 版本，并取得了巨大成功。
And we then spent another six months building the React Native version for Android and everything else.
然后我们又花了六个月的时间构建适用于 Android 和其他所有内容的 React Native 版本。
And we realized pretty quickly that React Native was the platform for the future.
我们很快意识到 React Native 是未来的平台。
We were like, oh my God, this will allow us to have one platform.
我们当时想，天哪，这将使我们拥有一个平台。
You could run it on the web as well, and we could use the React engineers from the web to work on it.
你也可以在网络上运行它，我们可以使用网络上的 React 工程师来处理它。
It was a clear winner.
这是一个明显的赢家。
By then, we had also launched a shop app, which is React Native.
那时我们还推出了一个商店应用程序，那就是React Native。
Farhan Thawar: And so we learned a lot about this.
Farhan Thawar：我们在这方面学到了很多东西。
And I went back and I said, hey everybody, I made a huge mistake.
我回去说，嘿大家，我犯了一个巨大的错误。
We just spent a year building this thing.
我们刚刚花了一年的时间来构建这个东西。
It's in market, but we're going to have to rewrite.
它已上市，但我们必须重写。
We're going to have to rebase back onto this iOS version.
我们将不得不重新回到这个 iOS 版本。
And I think I burned 18 months of time with a hundred engineers, literally from the decision I made in the first week of joining Shopify, and Toby, when I went to Toby and I told him, I go, hey man, I think I made this mistake and we have to do this and it's going to cost us a hundred engineers, another six, whatever.
我想我和 100 名工程师一起度过了 18 个月的时间，这实际上是从我加入 Shopify 的第一周做出的决定开始的，还有 Toby，当我去找 Toby 时，我告诉他，我走了，嘿伙计，我想我犯了这个错误，我们必须这样做，这将让我们损失 100 名工程师，另外 6 名工程师，等等。
And he looked at me and he goes, you should tell everyone this story.
他看着我，然后说道，你应该告诉每个人这个故事。
That's all he said.
他就是这么说的。
Not like, hey, bad, good.
不像，嘿，坏，好。
He goes, did you learn something?
他走了，你学到什么了吗？
It was an epiphany for me, but he was like, this is a learning org, and I totally failed and I told everyone I failed and my mistake and everything else, but he goes, just tell everyone because he goes, do you know what mistake you made?
这对我来说是顿悟，但他说，这是一个学习组织，我完全失败了，我告诉每个人我失败了，我的错误和其他一切，但他走了，只是告诉每个人，因为他走了，你知道你犯了什么错误吗？
Farhan Thawar: And first I was like, I don't think, like, what mistake.
Farhan Thawar：首先我想，我不认为有什么错误。
He's like, you didn't take.
他说，你没拿。
He goes, I will always come down harshly on people who do not take risks, and you did not take a risk in this case.
他说，我总是会严厉批评那些不冒险的人，而你在这种情况下没有冒险。
But if you take a risk and it doesn't work out, you'll never get in trouble, because you took the risk and it was the right risk to take, but he goes, but you didn't take the risk.
但如果你冒险而没有成功，你永远不会遇到麻烦，因为你冒险了，而且这是正确的冒险，但他走了，但你没有冒险。
Farhan Thawar: And so what I should have done, and by the way, even now thinking back it would be super hard to do, first week at Shopify, right, is take a risk on a platform that we have not launched in production app on, but he was correct in that we should have, because we would've saved ourselves so much more time.
Farhan Thawar：所以我应该做的，顺便说一句，即使现在回想起来，在 Shopify 的第一周，在我们尚未在生产应用程序中启动的平台上冒险也是非常困难的，但他是正确的，我们应该这样做，因为我们可以节省更多时间。
So yeah, total failure, sorry.
所以是的，彻底失败了，抱歉。
The product is super successful now and we're all on React Native and even the Shop Green app is on React Native.
该产品现在非常成功，我们都在使用 React Native，甚至 Shop Green 应用程序也在 React Native 上。
Everything's React Native, and we're core contributors.
一切都是 React Native，我们是核心贡献者。
It's all good.
一切都很好。
But I literally burned I think 18 months of time for a hundred engineers as my first decision in the company.
但作为我在公司的第一个决定，我确实花了 18 个月的时间为 100 名工程师工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: This might be the best example of failure coordinator we've had yet.
Lenny Rachitsky：这可能是我们迄今为止遇到的失败协调员的最佳例子。
This is a great example.
这是一个很好的例子。
Both of them actually are, although I'm wondering, okay, that felt like a really good decision to me and it's-
他们俩实际上都是，虽然我很想知道，好吧，这对我来说是一个非常好的决定，而且是——
Farhan Thawar: It sounds like it, right?
Farhan Thawar：听起来是这样，对吧？
But It wouldn't have been his.
但这不会是他的。
Lenny Rachitsky: But it's, obviously you don't want to just take risks.
Lenny Rachitsky：但显然你不想冒险。
There's a limit of a risk but informed, I guess.
我想，风险是有限度的，但也是明智的。
Is there anything you missed there that would told you this was the right path?
您是否错过了任何东西来告诉您这是正确的道路？
Because in hindsight, of course we should have done this, but looking back, what do you think you should have done other than we should have done the risky path?
因为事后看来，我们当然应该这么做，但回过头来看，你认为除了我们应该走的冒险之路之外，你还应该做什么？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, I mean one thing about my career as well is I don't really do anything halfway.
Farhan Thawar：是的，我的意思是关于我职业生涯的一件事是我不会半途而废。
And when I started looking into React Native, it was never just that I'm going, oh, let me look at the docs and read and build a thing.
当我开始研究 React Native 时，我不仅仅是要，哦，让我看看文档并阅读和构建一个东西。
It's like I flew to Meta and met with the React team.
就像我飞往 Meta 并与 React 团队会面一样。
I became a core contributor.
我成为了核心贡献者。
I ran the React Native working group, like we became release captains for React Native.
我负责 React Native 工作组，就像我们成为 React Native 的发布队长一样。
I knew that I was going to do all the things, so I'm like, and of course in React Native you can also drop down to native and do things there that are not possible.
我知道我要做所有的事情，所以我想，当然在 React Native 中你也可以下降到本机并在那里做不可能的事情。
So I think I hedged incorrectly.
所以我认为我的对冲是错误的。
I knew I was going to do all these things and I should have looked at my own thought process, say, if I do all the things, can I fail?
我知道我要做所有这些事情，我应该审视自己的思维过程，比如说，如果我做了所有这些事情，我会失败吗？
And I didn't take that into account because again, I did five or six.
我没有考虑到这一点，因为我又做了五六个。
Farhan Thawar: I literally, I put everyone together.
Farhan Thawar：我真的，我把每个人都聚集在一起。
I was running the group, I was like release captain.
我负责管理这个团队，我就像发布队长。
I would hang out with the React team and Meta, we're doing all the things.
我会和 React 团队和 Meta 一起出去玩，我们正在做所有的事情。
We became core contributors at React Native before we became core contributors and react because of all the things I was doing.
在我们成为核心贡献者并做出反应之前，我们成为了 React Native 的核心贡献者，因为我所做的所有事情。
And so I think just knowing that I was going to go all out, I should have said, you know what?
所以我想只要知道我会全力以赴，我就应该说，你知道吗？
This is not going to fail.
这不会失败。
And I didn't have the confidence in that path, so I hedged, right?
我对这条路没有信心，所以我对冲了，对吧？
Hedging is the worst.
对冲是最糟糕的。
And I remember the CTO at the time said, I'm wondering if I should force you to go React Native.
我记得当时的 CTO 说，我想知道是否应该强迫你使用 React Native。
He literally said that.
他确实是这么说的。
And I said, I will do if you say that, I will do it, but it would've been his decision.
我说，如果你这么说，我就会这么做，但那是他的决定。
And so he didn't do it.
所以他没有这么做。
He didn't tell me to do it.
他没有告诉我这样做。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, that makes a lot more sense.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这更有意义。
It's so funny that Facebook had a similar mistake early on in their career-
有趣的是，Facebook 在其职业生涯早期也犯过类似的错误——
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, exactly.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，完全正确。
I know.
我知道。
I don't know if you were at Zuck's interview at the Chase center that the Acquired podcast did, and he talked about this where their market cap dropped 80%.
我不知道你是否参加过扎克在大通中心接受 Acquired 播客的采访，他谈到了他们的市值下降了 80% 的情况。
They were about to go public.
他们即将上市。
They went with this app.
他们使用了这个应用程序。
No one thought they could do mobile ads.
没有人认为他们可以做移动广告。
And he's like, that set us back a year and a half.
他说，这让我们倒退了一年半。
He's like, but based on all the pain he's gone through back since then, he's like, that was not too bad.
他觉得，但基于他从那时起所经历的所有痛苦，他觉得，这还不算太糟糕。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, it's true actually, maybe what people don't know is, I was at Facebook, XtremeLabs, worked on the Facebook app and we worked on that app.
Farhan Thawar：是的，实际上确实如此，也许人们不知道的是，我在 Facebook 的 XtremeLabs 工作，开发 Facebook 应用程序，我们也开发该应用程序。
I was in the office when we submitted the iOS app every single day that week, because it kept crashing.
那周我们每天提交 iOS 应用程序时我都在办公室，因为它不断崩溃。
And we had obviously direct access to people at Apple, but we'd ship a new app on Monday and it crashed ship an app on...
显然，我们可以直接联系苹果公司的人员，但我们周一发布了一个新应用程序，但它崩溃了......
Not just us, but us, Facebook together.
不仅仅是我们，还有我们，Facebook 一起。
And so I remember that whole HTML five fiasco from the inside.
所以我从内部记得整个 HTML 5 的惨败。
Lenny Rachitsky: I thought you would say you also told Facebook to decide on the HTML5 app to set them back a year.
Lenny Rachitsky：我以为你会说你还告诉 Facebook 决定使用 HTML5 应用程序，让他们推迟了一年。
Farhan Thawar: I did not.
法尔汉·塔瓦：我没有。
We happened to be there when they were doing it.
他们这样做的时候我们正好在场。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's so funny.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Thank you for sharing that.
感谢您分享这一点。
Before we get to a very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you think would be valuable to leave listeners with, either touch on something you've mentioned, a last piece of nugget of wisdom, or we just go straight to the round?
在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，您认为还有什么可以留给听众的有价值的内容吗？要么谈谈您提到的内容，最后一点智慧，要么我们直接进入回合？
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, I'll say something maybe embarrassing for you.
Farhan Thawar：是的，我会说一些可能会让你尴尬的话。
I've been using your performance management framework from your first round review article, not knowing by the way that it was you.
我一直在使用你的第一轮评论文章中的绩效管理框架，但并不知道那是你。
I actually found it, you being the famous Lenny podcaster, but the old days, maybe the Lenny, the PM.
我实际上找到了，你是著名的 Lenny 播客，但在过去，也许是 Lenny，PM。
And I remember reading this a long time ago and just copying, there's a Google link in there to a Google Doc link with a template for a performance review framework that I've been using for years.
我记得很久以前读过这篇文章，只是复制了，其中有一个 Google 链接，指向 Google 文档链接，其中包含我多年来一直使用的绩效评估框架模板。
Farhan Thawar: Literally every review I've done at Shopify uses that framework.
Farhan Thawar：实际上，我在 Shopify 所做的每一次评论都使用了该框架。
And I was writing a post to my admin about how we can use LLMs to make it easier for me to write these reviews, even though obviously you have to read it all and go through it, but I was like, how can I generate some of this with an LLM?
我正在给我的管理员写一篇关于如何使用法学硕士让我更容易写这些评论的文章，尽管显然你必须阅读并浏览所有内容，但我想，我怎样才能用法学硕士生成其中一些？
And so I wanted to send her the original article.
所以我想把原文发给她。
So I went back to the first round review, I found the article and said, oh my God, it's Lenny, the same guy.
所以我回到第一轮审查，我找到了这篇文章并说，天哪，这是莱尼，同一个人。
Farhan Thawar: So I will say one thing that's interesting about that framework is, I've used it now for, like I said, six years here, is that, and I don't think it's me.
Farhan Thawar：所以我要说的是，该框架的一件有趣的事情是，正如我所说，我已经使用它六年了，但我不认为是我。
I think it's actually the framework pulls out good information.
我认为这实际上是框架提取了很好的信息。
I've had multiple people in a review process tell me that, when I deliver the feedback in, of course the format, they would say, wow, I've been in industry a long time.
在审核过程中，很多人告诉我，当我以这种格式提供反馈时，他们会说，哇，我已经在这个行业工作了很长时间了。
This is the best performance review I've ever had.
这是我经历过的最好的绩效评估。
And it's because the framework pulls out good information.
这是因为该框架提取了良好的信息。
So congrats to you.
所以恭喜你。
Farhan Thawar: But I think it was funny that randomly I was coming on this podcast and I just wrote that doc to my admin two, three weeks ago and realized it's the same person.
Farhan Thawar：但我觉得很有趣的是，我随机出现在这个播客上，两三周前我刚刚给我的管理员写了那个文档，然后意识到这是同一个人。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, how about that?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：嗯，那怎么样？
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
I'll also give credit to a four board guest on this podcast, Vlad Loktev, who was my manager at Airbnb, and that's where I was inspired to write about that framework.
我还要感谢这个播客的四位董事会嘉宾 Vlad Loktev，他是我在 Airbnb 的经理，这就是我受到启发写下这个框架的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: So it trickles down to him and I don't know where he boarded this, he probably invented it.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以它慢慢地传给了他，我不知道他在哪里登上了这个，他可能发明了它。
So credit to Vlad also for that.
这也归功于弗拉德。
Another fun fact along these lines, I have another first round of repost about the W framework, which is a framework for planning.
另一个有趣的事实是，我还有关于 W 框架的第一轮转发，这是一个规划框架。
They do annual planning.
他们做年度计划。
And that's one that I've slowly discovered many, many companies use and they don't know where it came from.
我慢慢发现很多很多公司都在使用这种方法，但他们不知道它来自哪里。
They just call it, oh, we have this W framework.
他们只是称之为，哦，我们有这个W框架。
Someone flipped it and call the M framework.
有人翻了个身，叫M框架。
But that's another one that has trickled into the ether of tech companies, which is awesome.
但这是另一种已经渗透到科技公司的领域，这真是太棒了。
Lenny Rachitsky: With that, Farhan, we have reached our very exciting lightning round.
Lenny Rachitsky：Farhan，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's do this.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我们开始吧。
What are two or three books that you have recommended most to other people?
您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Farhan Thawar: There's one.
Farhan Thawar：有一个。
So Toby has an annoyingly long set of books that he recommends, and they're all, not all, they're usually good, depends because we're not totally in sync on fiction, for example.
因此，托比推荐了一套令人烦恼的长书，它们都是，不是全部，它们通常都很好，这取决于我们在小说方面并不完全同步。
But he recommended one to me that I think everyone should read right now called Manna, M-A-N-N-A, from Marshall Brain.
但他向我推荐了一本我认为现在每个人都应该读的书，名叫《Manna, M-A-N-N-A》，作者是马歇尔·布莱恩 (Marshall Brain)。
It is a book, it's a book about AI.
这是一本书，一本关于人工智能的书。
And I think the most interesting thing about it though is about a future in which the AI tells the humans what to do.
我认为最有趣的事情是人工智能告诉人类该做什么的未来。
So it's this idea of, imagine in the future you came into work and the AI would tell you what emails to pay attention to or what dashboard to look at because something weird is going on.
所以这是这样的想法，想象一下，在未来你开始工作时，人工智能会告诉你要注意哪些电子邮件或要查看哪些仪表板，因为正在发生一些奇怪的事情。
It takes that to an interesting level.
它把它带到了一个有趣的水平。
So I would recommend reading that book.
所以我建议阅读那本书。
It's not long.
时间不长。
That's fun.
这很有趣。
Farhan Thawar: I think another book that I recommend to people, and it's a weird one to recommend, but it's Business Adventures from John Brooks, the famous, if you ask, I think it's Bill Gates, what his famous book of all time is, it's this book.
Farhan Thawar：我认为我向人们推荐的另一本书，推荐起来很奇怪，但这是著名的约翰·布鲁克斯的《商业冒险》，如果你问的话，我认为这是比尔·盖茨，他有史以来最著名的书是什么，就是这本书。
Farhan Thawar: And the cool thing about the book is that it is not easy to digest for anyone with focus problems.
Farhan Thawar：这本书最酷的一点是，对于任何有注意力问题的人来说，它都不容易消化。
Paul Graham wrote the post How to Do Great Work, and it's super long.
保罗·格雷厄姆（Paul Graham）写了一篇文章《如何做伟大的工作》，它非常长。
The best part about that post is that you have to be able to read the whole thing.
这篇文章最好的部分是你必须能够阅读整篇文章。
And so the same thing with Business Adventures.
商业冒险也是如此。
I think each chapter is, it's 12 chapters, 12 stories, no breaks in between.
我认为每一章都是，12章，12个故事，中间没有间断。
It's just each one is super long.
只是每一篇都超长。
But it just goes into a problem at such depth that if you can maintain your focus to get through the depths of each problem, you will just learn something, just like that post by Paul Graham.
但它只是进入一个如此深入的问题，如果你能保持注意力来解决每个问题的深度，你就会学到一些东西，就像保罗·格雷厄姆的那篇文章一样。
Farhan Thawar: I loved that it was so long because I sent it to people and I said, the test here is can you read it?
Farhan Thawar：我喜欢它这么长，因为我把它发给人们，我说，这里的测试是你能读懂它吗？
Can you just get to the end?
你能走到最后吗？
And not in a pejorative way, like in a...
而且不是以贬义的方式，就像......
If you can get to the end, you will extract the alpha from this post if you can read it all.
如果你能读到最后，如果你能阅读全文，你将从这篇文章中提取 alpha。
So those are...
所以那些是...
Manna is like the opposite.
吗哪则恰恰相反。
It's very easy and easy read.
它非常简单易读。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm excited to read these.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴读到这些。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?
您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Farhan Thawar: A recent one was Challengers, the tennis movie, with Zendaya just randomly I was at home and I put it on and the cool thing about it was more the cinematography and music.
Farhan Thawar：最近的一部是网球电影《挑战者》，赞达亚只是偶然在家里，我就放了它，它最酷的地方更多是电影摄影和音乐。
They had this weird style, art house style, where they would be talking and music would get super loud.
他们有一种奇怪的风格，艺术风格，他们会说话，音乐会变得超级响亮。
It was very strange, but a very, very good movie.
这很奇怪，但却是一部非常非常好的电影。
And then you saw, you said movies and-
然后你看到，你说电影然后-
Lenny Rachitsky: Or TV show.
Lenny Rachitsky：或者电视节目。
Oh, TV show, anything like that.
哦，电视节目，类似的东西。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, one of my all time favorites is probably Halt and Catch Fire.
Farhan Thawar：是的，我最喜欢的作品之一可能是《Halt and Catch Fire》。
I don't know if you've watched that.
我不知道你是否看过这个。
Lenny Rachitsky: About the early tech industry.
Lenny Rachitsky：关于早期科技行业。
Farhan Thawar: Early tech.
Farhan Thawar：早期技术。
And I think there was an Andreessen podcast where he said this is the closest thing to what a real startup looks like.
我认为安德森有一个播客，他说这是最接近真正的初创公司的样子。
So Halt and Catch Fire like an all time recommend, everybody has to watch it.
所以《停止和着火》就像一直推荐的那样，每个人都必须观看。
Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite product that you recently discovered that you really love?
Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现自己真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品有吗？
Farhan Thawar: I don't know if I want to be in the zeitgeist right now, but the Meta Ray-Bans are amazing.
Farhan Thawar：我不知道我现在是否想融入时代精神，但 Meta 雷朋太阳镜太棒了。
And the biggest thing about the Meta Ray-Bans was just that I think I never got into it and I saw people around me wearing it, but I only got into it when somebody said I'd never take my AirPods with me anymore.
Meta Ray-Bans 最重要的一点是，我想我从来没有喜欢过它，而且我看到周围的人戴着它，但只有当有人说我再也不会随身携带 AirPods 时，我才开始喜欢它。
And I was like, oh, I can swap two devices for one device.
我当时想，哦，我可以用两台设备交换一台设备。
I always have sunglasses and AirPods because I'll go for a walk or listen to a podcast and now I can just have one device.
我总是戴着太阳镜和 AirPods，因为我会去散步或听播客，而现在我可以只拥有一台设备。
Farhan Thawar: And this happened to me.
Farhan Thawar：这发生在我身上。
I was in the summer, I was at a pool party and someone called me and I just took it from my sunglasses and people were confused as where I was taking this call from.
那是在夏天，我正在参加一个泳池派对，有人打电话给我，我只是从太阳镜中取出它，人们很困惑我是从哪里接这个电话的。
But they are the right amount of tech.
但它们的技术含量恰到好处。
They're in unintrusive, you can't tell, they don't look like any tech.
它们不具有侵入性，你看不出来，它们看起来不像任何技术。
And then also I was playing soccer with my kids.
然后我还和我的孩子们踢足球。
I have three kids.
我有三个孩子。
I just turned the video on and I was the goalie and they were taking shots and I was watching them.
我刚刚打开视频，我是守门员，他们在射门，我也在看着他们。
They had no idea that I was just recording.
他们不知道我只是在录音。
And it was such a cool moment because I was in playing soccer with them.
那真是一个很酷的时刻，因为我正在和他们一起踢足球。
I wasn't with my phone and I got to get this amazing set of video that I would never would've gotten.
我没有带手机，却得到了这组我永远不会得到的精彩视频。
So I really liked the Meta Ray-Bans.
所以我真的很喜欢Meta Ray-Ban 眼镜。
Lenny Rachitsky: We had Boz on the podcast who leads a lot of that work and he's got a to teach us.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们的播客中有博兹（Boz），他领导了很多工作，他可以教我们。
And I put on Ray-Bans while we were doing the interview just for fun.
当我们进行采访时，我戴上雷朋眼镜只是为了好玩。
You could see my setup.
你可以看到我的设置。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
Two more questions.
还有两个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you find useful in work or in life?
您有最喜欢的人生格言吗？您认为这对工作或生活有用吗？
Farhan Thawar: Okay, I do.
Farhan Thawar：好的，我愿意。
And it's on a lot of my profile bios, and it is, everything you know is wrong.
我的个人资料里有很多这样的内容，你所知道的一切都是错误的。
And the reason I like that one, and people always like, what would you put on a billboard?
我喜欢这个，人们总是喜欢这个的原因是，你会在广告牌上放什么？
And people always come back to me and say, that's like they know that as my motto.
人们总是回来找我说，好像他们知道这是我的座右铭。
Farhan Thawar: And the reason for that is it's this notion of if all the knowledge you knew was incorrect, could you from first principles build up a view of the world?
Farhan Thawar：原因在于，如果你所知道的所有知识都是错误的，你能否从第一原理出发建立一种世界观？
And that's kind of how I like to think of things is that, anything could be incorrect.
这就是我喜欢思考事情的方式，任何事情都可能是错误的。
Even things that you think are correct, which is why, again, back to the, I like to experiment.
即使你认为是正确的事情，这就是为什么，再次回到我喜欢尝试的原因。
I like to look stupid, because I'm always trying shit because I'm like, I don't know if even though you say this is correct, that this is going to work, right.
我喜欢看起来很愚蠢，因为我总是在尝试一些糟糕的事情，因为我不知道即使你说这是正确的，这是否会起作用，对吧。
Farhan Thawar: Actually, one example, my wife hates this is I have a Tesla and I routinely will switch gears without fully stopping the car, which you cannot do in a regular car, but I'll be in drive and then I'll slow down to drive back up into my driveway and while it's moving I switch it into reverse.
Farhan Thawar：事实上，我的妻子讨厌这个，因为我有一辆特斯拉，我通常会在不完全停止汽车的情况下换档，这是普通汽车无法做到的，但我会开车，然后我会减速回到我的车道，当它移动时，我将其切换到倒车档。
Farhan Thawar: And you never would know that that's possible except for trying.
Farhan Thawar：除非尝试，否则你永远不会知道这是可能的。
And sometimes it goes beep beep because you're going too fast.
有时它会发出嘟嘟嘟的声音，因为你走得太快了。
And she hates it.
她讨厌它。
But I'm always trying weird things and so that's why I say everything you know is wrong.
但我总是在尝试奇怪的事情，所以这就是为什么我说你所知道的一切都是错的。
Who knows what's possible, just try different things.
谁知道什么是可能的，只是尝试不同的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: I do the same thing with my Tesla.
Lenny Rachitsky：我对我的特斯拉也做了同样的事情。
I used to do it with a non-electric car and my wife is always like, don't do that.
我曾经用非电动汽车来做这件事，我的妻子总是说，不要这样做。
Screwing it up.
把它搞砸了。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that on an electric car, there's no gear you're breaking, it's just software.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢在电动汽车上，不会损坏任何齿轮，而只是软件。
Lenny Rachitsky: This quote reminds me of that you shared of everything you know is wrong.
Lenny Rachitsky：这句话让我想起你分享的一切你知道是错误的。
The founders of Airbnb always talked about just this point that everything around you was designed somebody, another human.
Airbnb 的创始人总是谈到这一点：你周围的一切都是由另一个人设计的。
There's not necessarily that much smarter or insightful.
不一定有那么聪明或有洞察力。
It doesn't mean what they did was correct.
这并不意味着他们所做的就是正确的。
Somebody else find some better potentially...
其他人找到了更好的潜力......
Farhan Thawar: I think Steve Jobs had a similar thing like, hey, you can design anything.
Farhan Thawar：我认为史蒂夫·乔布斯也有类似的想法，比如，嘿，你可以设计任何东西。
Everything's designed by people.
一切都是人设计的。
I love that one too.
我也喜欢那个。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
Final question.
最后一个问题。
So you told me the story of this PhD you hired versus just a guy you met in a college, sorry, in a coffee shop.
所以你告诉我你雇佣的这位博士的故事与你在大学里认识的一个人的故事，抱歉，在咖啡店里。
I read another similar story where you hired a waitress.
我读过另一个类似的故事，你雇了一名女服务员。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is that real?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是真的吗？
Okay, tell that story.
好吧，讲那个故事。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, so again, this is another long list of reasons my wife is in annoyed with me, but this is another one of them.
Farhan Thawar：是的，再说一遍，这是我妻子对我生气的又一长串原因，但这只是其中之一。
Whenever we are out, I'm always scanning and I'm always scanning people and one, do I know anybody around, whatever.
每当我们外出时，我总是在扫描，我总是在扫描人和其中之一，我是否认识周围的人，等等。
I like to scan for people and I have a good memory for faces.
我喜欢扫描人，并且对面孔有很好的记忆力。
But in this case we were at a restaurant and I saw a waitress doing a very, very good job, an extremely, like she was running between different tables, she was smiling her face, taking everyone's order, making sure that there was a thing happening in the kitchen.
但在这个例子中，我们在一家餐厅，我看到一位女服务员做得非常非常好，非常好，就像她在不同的桌子之间跑来跑去，她面带微笑，接受每个人的订单，确保厨房里有事情发生。
She was kind of doing a phenomenal job of organizing the entire crazy busy restaurant.
她在组织整个疯狂繁忙的餐厅方面做得非常出色。
And so in talking to her, I said, what do you do outside of this because you look like you're super.
因此，在与她交谈时，我说，除了这件事之外，你还做什么，因为你看起来很棒。
She's like, what do you mean?
她说，你什么意思？
I'm just the waitress.
我只是服务员。
Farhan Thawar: And I said, well, would you like to, this is XtremeLabs.
Farhan Thawar：我说，好吧，你愿意吗，这里是 XtremeLabs。
I Said, would you like to work at XtremeLabs?
我说，你想在 XtremeLabs 工作吗？
She's like, what's that?
她说，那是什么？
So I explained it to her and I got her contact info.
所以我向她解释了这一点，并得到了她的联系方式。
She came into the office and she first started off as our receptionist, so she moved from the retail world into the office world, and then I brought her on as my admin and she became one of my recruiters.
她来到办公室，一开始是我们的接待员，所以她从零售界进入了办公室界，然后我让她担任我的管理员，她成为我的招聘人员之一。
And I taught her how to recruit and talked to people and she came in with me to info sessions.
我教她如何招聘和与人交谈，她和我一起参加信息发布会。
And over time we actually hired many more people from the restaurant that were really, really good at their job.
随着时间的推移，我们实际上从餐厅雇佣了更多非常非常擅长工作的人。
And what was amazing was, one, she was organized but not reorganized.
令人惊奇的是，第一，她是有组织的，但没有重组。
I had to teach her at Google Docs and G Suite and everything else, but she was super smart but just never had the opportunity.
我必须教她 Google Docs 和 G Suite 以及其他一切，但她非常聪明，但从来没有机会。
Farhan Thawar: The coolest thing about this is that she ended up being, she ended up taking over one of the HR functions for us.
Farhan Thawar：最酷的事情是她最终接管了我们的人力资源职能之一。
And she had a college degree and because of the work she had done with us, she was able to parlay that into finishing, doing one more year and getting a university degree.
她拥有大学学位，由于她与我们一起完成的工作，她能够利用这一点完成学业，再学习一年并获得大学学位。
And now she's a director of HR at a company, which is amazing from, like, she went from that environment to this environment and a lot of her people, she pulled the smart and intense people she pulled from that environment also ended up on these amazing career paths.
现在她是一家公司的人力资源总监，这真是太棒了，因为她从那个环境来到了这个环境，她的很多人，她从那个环境中拉出来的聪明而热情的人也最终走上了这些令人惊叹的职业道路。
If I see someone doing a good job, I'm like, what do they do?
如果我看到有人做得很好，我就会想，他们是做什么的？
How can I work with them?
我如何与他们合作？
This is one example of pulling somebody out of that environment.
这是将某人从该环境中拉出来的一个例子。
I have lots of other ones where I overhear someone in their designer or an engineer and I try to hire them into my company as well.
我还有很多其他的公司，我无意中听到他们的设计师或工程师中的某个人，我也尝试雇用他们进入我的公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
That is such a good story.
那真是一个好故事。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Maybe restaurants are the new feeder system for tech companies.
也许餐馆是科技公司的新供给系统。
Did not think about that.
没有想到这一点。
Farhan Thawar: Yeah, I mean, everyone's smart at something, so I was trying to figure out, she was really good at this thing.
Farhan Thawar：是的，我的意思是，每个人在某些方面都很聪明，所以我试图弄清楚，她真的很擅长这件事。
She'd be so good at something else.
她在其他事情上会很擅长。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I feel like there's so many stories, more stories to tell, but we're going to wrap it up and let you go, farhan.
我觉得有很多故事，还有更多的故事要讲，但我们会结束它并让你走，法尔汉。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you a line if they want to reach out, learn more, maybe apply to work at Shopify and how can listeners be useful to you?
如果人们想联系您、了解更多信息、也许申请 Shopify 的工作，可以在哪里找到您的热线？听众对您有何帮助？
Farhan Thawar: Sure, so Twitter's probably the place I try to hang out the most, X at FNThawar, and maybe I'll put that in the show notes.
Farhan Thawar：当然，所以 Twitter 可能是我最常闲逛的地方，X at FNThawar，也许我会把它放在节目笔记中。
And then listeners for me.
然后是我的听众。
I mean, I love to be challenged.
我的意思是，我喜欢接受挑战。
I'm sure that there are people who are like, they heard something that I said and they're like, oh, that's super dumb.
我确信有人会这样，他们听到我说的话，然后他们会说，哦，那太愚蠢了。
We do this instead.
我们这样做。
Or here's research that says that that won't work.
或者这里的研究表明这行不通。
I would love to hear more about these because I'm just again, on a learning journey and if I did something stupid, very likely I would like to learn a better way to do things.
我很想听到更多关于这些的信息，因为我又开始了学习之旅，如果我做了一些愚蠢的事情，我很可能想学习更好的做事方法。
So I would love for people to comment and say, hey, this is dumb.
所以我希望人们发表评论并说，嘿，这太愚蠢了。
You should try this, or, that doesn't make any sense.
你应该尝试这个，否则，这没有任何意义。
I would love to learn more.
我很想了解更多。
So that's what I'm looking for.
这就是我正在寻找的。
Lenny Rachitsky: All right, well leave a comment in YouTube or on the Substack post with what Farhan got wrong.
Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，我们在 YouTube 或 Substack 帖子中留下评论，说明 Farhan 的错误之处。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：非常感谢您来到这里。
Thanks for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Bye everyone.
再见大家。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。
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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。