How to build trust and grow as a product leader | Fareed Mosavat (Reforge, Slack, Instacart, Pixar)

Fareed Mosavat: You can't do homework.

Fareed Mosavat：你不能做作业。

You can't do exercises.

你不能做练习。

You can't do fake stuff.

你不能做假事。

You have to work on real products at real companies with real customers, with real data to get better at product management.

你必须在真实的​​公司、真实的客户、真实的数据上开发真实的产品，才能更好地进行产品管理。

So any kind of training, mentorship, reading, et cetera that you do is just a layer on top of that.

因此，你所做的任何类型的培训、指导、阅读等都只是在此之上的一层。

The real acceleration happens from doing it and getting more reps.

真正的加速来自于做这件事并获得更多次数。

There are ways that I think great PMs use to go faster on this loop, but you still have to do the work.

我认为优秀的产品经理可以使用一些方法来加快这个循环，但你仍然需要完成工作。

At the core is you have to actually execute and deliver great products, and you have to do it over, and over, and over again.

核心是你必须实际执行和交付出色的产品，并且你必须一遍又一遍地这样做。

Lenny: Fareed Mosavat is the Chief Development Officer at Reforge where he's been for over two and a half years.

Lenny：Fareed Mosavat 是 Reforge 的首席开发官，他已经在该公司工作了两年半多了。

Before that, he spent three and a half years at Slack leading a lot of their growth efforts, about a year at Instacart leading a number of their key growth analytics and product efforts.

在此之前，他在 Slack 工作了三年半，领导了他们的许多增长工作，在 Instacart 工作了大约一年，领导了他们的许多关键增长分析和产品工作。

He's a GM at Zynga, he's VP of Product at Runkeeper, and something that I only learned during our chat is that he spent six years at Pixar doing character simulation, rigging, and building 3D animation tools.

他是 Zynga 的总经理，Runkeeper 的产品副总裁，我在聊天中才了解到他在皮克斯工作了六年，从事角色模拟、绑定和构建 3D 动画工具。

In our conversation, we focus on the journey of becoming a great PM, including crossing the canyon from IC to manager, the importance of expanding your scope, and how to create opportunities where you get more responsibility as a PM.

在我们的对话中，我们重点讨论成为一名优秀 PM 的旅程，包括跨越从 IC 到经理的峡谷、扩大你的范围的重要性，以及如何创造机会让你作为 PM 承担更多责任。

Fareed is such an A-plus human full of so much insight, and I'm really excited for you to learn from him.

法里德是一位一流的人，充满了如此多的洞察力，我真的很高兴你能向他学习。

With that, I bring you Fareed Mosavat.

接下来，我为您带来法里德·莫萨瓦特。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Coda.

莱尼：这一集是由 Coda 为您带来的。

Coda is an all-in-one doc that combines the best of documents, spreadsheets, and apps in one place.

Coda 是一款一体化文档，它将文档、电子表格和应用程序的最佳功能整合到一个地方。

I actually use Coda every single day.

事实上我每天都使用 Coda。

It's my home base for organizing my newsletter writing.

这是我组织时事通讯写作的大本营。

It's where I plan my content calendar, capture my research, and write the first drafts of each and every post.

我在这里规划我的内容日历、记录我的研究并撰写每篇文章的初稿。

It's also where I curate my private knowledge repository for paid newsletter subscribers, and it's also how I manage the workflow for this very podcast.

这也是我为付费时事通讯订阅者策划私人知识库的地方，也是我管理这个播客工作流程的方式。

Lenny: Over the years, I've seen Coda evolve from being a tool that makes teams more productive to one that also helps bring the best practices across the tech industry to life with an incredibly rich collection of templates and guides in the Coda Doc Gallery, including resources from many guests on this podcast, including Shreyas, Gokul, and Shishir, the CEO of Coda.

Lenny：多年来，我看到 Coda 从一种提高团队工作效率的工具发展成为一种工具，通过 Coda Doc Gallery 中极其丰富的模板和指南，帮助将整个科技行业的最佳实践变为现实，其中包括来自该播客的许多嘉宾的资源，包括 Shreyas、Gokul 和 Coda 首席执行官 Shishir。

Some of the best teams out there, like Pinterest, Spotify, Square, and Uber, use Coda to run effectively and have published their templates for anyone to use.

一些最好的团队，如 Pinterest、Spotify、Square 和 Uber，都使用 Coda 来有效运行，并发布了他们的模板供任何人使用。

If you're ping-ponging between lots of documents and spreadsheets, make your life better, and start using Coda.

如果您在大量文档和电子表格之间来回切换，为了让您的生活更美好，请开始使用 Coda。

You can take advantage of a special limited-time offer just for startups.

您可以利用专为初创公司提供的特殊限时优惠。

Head over to coda.io/lenny to sign up and get $1,000 credit on your first statement.

前往 coda.io/lenny 进行注册，并在您的第一份账单上获得 1,000 美元的积分。

That's C-O-D-A.io/lenny to sign up and get $1,000 in credit on your account.

注册后即可在 C-O-D-A.io/lenny 上获得 1,000 美元的积分。

Lenny: I'm excited to chat with my friend, John Cutler, from podcast sponsor Amplitude.

Lenny：我很高兴能与来自播客赞助商 Amplitude 的朋友 John Cutler 聊天。

Hey, John.

嘿，约翰。

John Cutler: Hey, Lenny.

约翰·卡特勒：嘿，莱尼。

Excited to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: John, give us a behind-the-scenes at Amplitude.

莱尼：约翰，请给我们介绍一下 Amplitude 的幕后花絮。

When most people think of Amplitude, they think of product analytics, but now you're getting into experimentation and even just launched a CDP.

当大多数人想到 Amplitude 时，他们会想到产品分析，但现在您正在进入实验，甚至刚刚推出了 CDP。

What's the thought process there?

那里的思维过程是怎样的？

John Cutler: Well, we've always thought of Amplitude as being about supporting the full product loop.

John Cutler：嗯，我们一直认为 Amplitude 是为了支持整个产品循环。

Think collect data, inform, vet, ship experiments, and learn.

思考收集数据、提供信息、审查、进行实验并学习。

That's the heart of growth to us.

这就是我们成长的核心。

So the big aha was seeing how many customers were using Amplitude to analyze experiments, use segments for outreach, and send data to other destinations.

因此，最大的惊喜是看到有多少客户使用 Amplitude 来分析实验、使用分段进行推广以及将数据发送到其他目的地。

Experiment and CDP came out of listening to and observing our customers.

实验和 CDP 源于倾听和观察客户的意见。

Lenny: Supporting growth and learning has always been Amplitude's core focus, right?

Lenny：支持成长和学习一直是 Amplitude 的核心重点，对吧？

John Cutler: Yeah.

约翰·卡特勒：是的。

So Amplitude tries to meet customers where they are.

因此，Amplitude 试图满足客户的需求。

We just launched starter templates and have a great scholarship program for startups.

我们刚刚推出了入门模板，并为初创公司提供了很棒的奖学金计划。

There's never been a more important time for growth.

对于成长来说，从未有过如此重要的时刻。

Lenny: Absolutely agree.

莱尼：绝对同意。

Thanks for joining us, John, and head to amplitude.com to get started.

约翰，感谢您加入我们，请前往振幅.com 开始。

Lenny: Fareed, welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：法里德，欢迎来到播客。

Fareed Mosavat: Thanks for having me, Lenny.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

I'm super excited to be here.

我非常高兴来到这里。

Lenny: So to set a little context for listeners that aren't super familiar with you, can you give us just a 45-second overview of your career and all the wonderful things that you've done?

Lenny：那么，为了向不太熟悉您的听众介绍一下背景，您能否用 45 秒的时间向我们介绍一下您的职业生涯以及您所做过的所有精彩事情？

Fareed Mosavat: Great.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：太好了。

Hi.

你好。

I'm Fareed Mosavat.

我是法里德·莫萨瓦特。

I live in Berkeley, California with my wonderful wife and two children, but I've been a product leader across a variety of different companies over the course of my career.

我和我出色的妻子和两个孩子住在加利福尼亚州伯克利，但在我的职业生涯中，我一直是多家不同公司的产品负责人。

Today, I am the chief development officer at Reforge where I help run all of our content teams, parts of our operations, and our partnerships with wonderful experts like yourself.

如今，我是 Reforge 的首席开发官，帮助管理我们所有的内容团队、部分运营以及与像您这样的优秀专家的合作伙伴关系。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

What about all the other things you've done?

你做过的所有其他事情又如何呢？

Fareed Mosavat: So, previous to this, I spent almost four years as the director of product for a team called Lifecycle at Slack that is effectively a growth team.

Fareed Mosavat：在此之前，我在 Slack 的一个名为 Lifecycle 的团队中担任了近四年的产品总监，该团队实际上是一个成长团队。

We're responsible for the self-service business at Slack all the way from first sign up, first team creation through to the first invites, activation, expansion, modernization, and even connecting the dots with our SMB sales team to help nurture some of those small self-service teams into larger commitments through our sales team.

我们负责 Slack 的自助服务业务，从首次注册、第一个团队创建到首次邀请、激活、扩展、现代化，甚至与我们的中小企业销售团队联系起来，通过我们的销售团队帮助培养一些小型自助服务团队做出更大的承诺。

Fareed Mosavat: I came to that through a variety of different growth and product leadership roles at a bunch of different startups on larger companies.

Fareed Mosavat：我是通过在大公司的许多不同初创公司担任过各种不同的增长和产品领导角色来实现这一目标的。

I built one of the first growth teams at Instacart for about a year and a half in the middle of their acceleration.

我在 Instacart 建立了第一批增长团队，花了大约一年半的时间在他们的加速过程中。

I was VP of Product at a company called Runkeeper before that in Boston, health and fitness tracking company.

在此之前，我曾在波士顿一家名为 Runkeeper 的健康和健身追踪公司担任产品副总裁。

I was a general manager at Zynga.

我是 Zynga 的总经理。

I got there through a startup that I was an engineer at, basically started as an engineer, ended as a head of product over the course of a couple of years, and then got acquired into Zynga, and actually started my career with almost seven years at Pixar Animation Studios working on visual effects, software tools, and other creative tech to try and solve problems for a bunch of wonderful films you've probably seen or your kids have seen.

我是通过一家初创公司到达那里的，当时我是一名工程师，最初是一名工程师，几年后担任产品主管，然后被 Zynga 收购，实际上，我在皮克斯动画工作室工作了近七年，开始了我的职业生涯，致力于视觉效果、软件工具和其他创意技术，尝试解决你可能看过或你的孩子看过的一系列精彩电影的问题。

Lenny: Please tell us the films that you worked at.

莱尼：请告诉我们您拍摄过的电影。

I had no idea that you worked at Pixar.

我不知道你在皮克斯工作。

Fareed Mosavat: I am credited on Finding Nemo, Cars, Wally, and Up.

Fareed Mosavat：我因《海底总动员》、《汽车总动员》、《沃利》和《飞屋环游记》而获奖。

Lenny: What?

莱尼：什么？

I did not know any of this.

我对此一无所知。

Fareed Mosavat: Yeah.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Basically, I started there right out of college.

基本上，我大学一毕业就开始了。

I was super interested in computer graphics.

我对计算机图形学非常感兴趣。

I'd actually been an intern there, was very lucky to be interested in that in the moment where they were really accelerating the growth of the company going from like the whole company is working on one film to like, "Okay.

我实际上是那里的一名实习生，很幸运能够对他们真正加速公司发展的那一刻感兴趣，从整个公司都在制作一部电影到喜欢“好吧。

We're trying to release a film every 18 months." So they really scaled up, and I had been studying computer graphics, and then I was an engineer focused on computer graphics and a little bit of research on that in college, was an intern there, and joined, and just got to see a fun growth period at that company, and really, I think in a lot of ways is the root of why I love doing product management because everything I worked on was at the intersections of interesting creative problems, interesting technical problems, and interesting storytelling problems.

我们正努力每 18 个月发行一部电影。”所以他们真的扩大了规模，我一直在学习计算机图形学，然后我是一名专注于计算机图形学的工程师，并在大学里进行了一些研究，在那里实习，然后加入了，刚刚看到了那家公司的有趣的成长时期，真的，我认为在很多方面都是我喜欢做产品管理的根源，因为我所做的一切都是有趣的创意问题、有趣的技术问题和有趣的讲故事问题的交叉点。

Fareed Mosavat: So, in a lot of ways, it was like...

Fareed Mosavat：所以，在很多方面，这就像......

I think if I connect the dots backwards to the Steve Jobsism is the beginning of how I got interested in solving high-level strategic problems across a bunch of different people doing different kinds of work and maybe how I got relatively good at it.

我认为，如果我将这些点向后连接到史蒂夫·乔布斯主义，那就是我如何对解决一群从事不同类型工作的不同人的高级战略问题感兴趣的开始，也许我是如何相对擅长于此的。

It was because even as an engineer, I was sitting in the middle of those pieces, but I got bored, which sounds crazy, and decided to jump into a startup that nobody had ever heard of that had eight employees in 2006, and the rest is history from there.

这是因为即使作为一名工程师，我也坐在这些碎片的中间，但我感到无聊，这听起来很疯狂，于是决定跳入一家没人听说过的初创公司，2006 年它有 8 名员工，剩下的就是从那里开始的历史。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I wasn't planning to talk about Pixar, but I am so curious.

我本来不打算谈论皮克斯，但我很好奇。

One more question there.

还有一个问题。

What's something that you learned from Pixar that has informed the way that you build products or think about product or your career?

您从皮克斯学到的哪些东西影响了您构建产品或思考产品或职业的方式？

Fareed Mosavat: At the foundation of it is when I first got there, I thought what was important was modeling how things work in the real world.

Fareed Mosavat：当我第一次到达那里时，我认为重要的是模拟现实世界中事物的运作方式。

They're making things look right, so to speak.

可以这么说，他们正在让事情看起来正确。

What I learned there is that actually, you're trying to deliver an end experience, and product, and story to your viewers, to your audience.

我从中了解到，实际上，您正在尝试向观众、观众提供最终体验、产品和故事。

It doesn't actually matter what's real.

实际上什么是真实的并不重要。

It matters what you see on the screen.

您在屏幕上看到的内容很重要。

It matters the emotion that it creates, the story that it creates, how it reinforces all of the other pieces.

重要的是它所创造的情感、它所创造的故事以及它如何强化所有其他作品。

So the technical pieces were just a means to that end.

所以技术部分只是达到这个目的的一种手段。

So, of course, we used real physics and real math behind the scenes to do stuff, but if you had to box the numbers to make it look right, that's the right thing to do.

所以，当然，我们在幕后使用了真实的物理和真实的数学来做事情，但如果你必须将数字装箱以使其看起来正确，那就是正确的做法。

Fareed Mosavat: So I remember as I was working on early effects, bubbles, sand, so this kind of stuff, I was trying to do things the way it would really work, and then the camel would look at it, and almost the first lesson I learned there was like, "No. What matters is the end result, the end product, the end feeling." I feel like I go back to that a lot as I think about product development not just from an engineering and technical standpoint, but from what's in your strategy doc isn't that important.

Fareed Mosavat：所以我记得当我致力于早期效果、气泡、沙子等这类东西时，我试图以真正有效的方式做事，然后骆驼会看它，我在那里学到的第一课几乎是，“不。重要的是最终结果，最终产品，最终感觉。”我觉得我经常回顾这一点，因为我不仅从工程和技术的角度考虑产品开发，而且从战略文档中的内容来看也并不那么重要。

It's actually just an input into the end experience that you're trying to deliver for customers.

它实际上只是您试图为客户提供的最终体验的输入。

When we're thinking about content development in our programs, it's not important that all of the principles fit perfectly together into this MEC framework.

当我们考虑项目中的内容开发时，所有原则是否完美契合此 MEC 框架并不重要。

It matters that you help people solve actual problems.

帮助人们解决实际问题很重要。

What's the end goal that you're looking for?

您正在寻找的最终目标是什么？

I feel like that's the lesson that I just keep going back to for my time there.

我觉得这就是我在那里的那段时间不断回顾的教训。

Lenny: It's a great segue to Reforge, which I want to spend a little bit of time on.

Lenny：这是 Reforge 的一个很好的延续，我想花一点时间在上面。

Folks that listen to this podcast know that I'm a huge fan, and we have a lot of Reforge alumni on this podcast.

听这个播客的人都知道我是一个超级粉丝，而且这个播客上有很多 Reforge 校友。

Lenny: So a couple questions there.

莱尼：有几个问题。

One, you said you're a chief development officer.

第一，你说你是首席开发官。

Is that your title?

这是你的头衔吗？

Lenny: What is it that you do as a chief development officer?

Lenny：作为首席开发官，你的职责是什么？

Fareed Mosavat: It's funny because in a lot of ways, it's not a made-up title, but trying to figure out how a role that I ended up sliding into as I grew my engagement with the company, how do we describe what it is?

Fareed Mosavat：这很有趣，因为从很多方面来说，这不是一个虚构的标题，而是试图弄清楚随着我与公司的接触不断加深，我最终是如何滑入这个角色的，我们如何描述它是什么？

So I think what's unique about Reforge versus a traditional software startup, or a SaaS company, or all the other things you see is that we're not just a software company.

因此，我认为与传统软件初创公司、SaaS 公司或您看到的所有其他公司相比，Reforge 的独特之处在于我们不仅仅是一家软件公司。

Of course, we have a website.

当然，我们有一个网站。

Go to it.

去吧。

You see things, you deliberate, but we also build a lot of stuff and experiences that fit into that.

你会看到事物，你会深思熟虑，但我们也构建了很多与之相适应的东西和体验。

We build content.

我们构建内容。

We build programs today.

我们今天构建程序。

We're going to build all kinds of other content.

我们将构建各种其他内容。

We have live cohort experiences that are designed and thoughtful, and we build and try to make, solve certain customer problems.

我们拥有经过设计和深思熟虑的现场队列体验，我们构建并尝试解决某些客户问题。

Fareed Mosavat: We have a member slack that we try to design to solve certain problems.

Fareed Mosavat：我们有一个成员松弛计划，我们试图设计它来解决某些问题。

We have the people like yourself and a lot of the guests that you've had on the podcast like Elena, or Adam Fishman, or Casey who plugged into our system to help us build all of those things because at the end of the day, our job is to help unlock the expertise that's locked in the heads of the greatest operators in the world.

我们有像您这样的人，还有很多像 Elena、Adam Fishman 或 Casey 这样的播客嘉宾，他们接入我们的系统来帮助我们构建所有这些东西，因为归根结底，我们的工作是帮助解锁世界上最伟大的操作员头脑中的专业知识。

So who do we work with?

那么我们和谁一起工作呢？

How do we develop that content?

我们如何开发这些内容？

How do we make their ideas shine?

我们如何让他们的想法闪闪发光？

How do we solve real member problems?

如何解决会员的实际问题？

How do we help people do work?

我们如何帮助人们工作？

Fareed Mosavat: A lot of that is a product experience that in some ways, like a Pixar movie, there's the technical aspects and the UX aspects, but there's also all of the content, and the partners that we work with, and those pieces.

Fareed Mosavat：其中很大一部分是产品体验，在某些方面，就像皮克斯电影一样，有技术方面和用户体验方面，但也有所有内容、与我们合作的合作伙伴以及这些部分。

I own all of that piece, like the production, content, the new product experiences, and all of the pieces that fit in there.

我拥有这一切，比如制作、内容、新产品体验以及所有适合其中的部分。

So we have a team of really talented, amazing people that work on these things, and I lead those teams.

因此，我们拥有一支由非常有才华、出色的人员组成的团队致力于这些事情，而我领导着这些团队。

Lenny: It's interesting how that comes back to your Pixar experience of the combination of intersection of art and technology.

莱尼：有趣的是，这又回到了艺术与技术相结合的皮克斯体验。

Lenny: That's so interesting.

莱尼：这太有趣了。

Okay.

好的。

Never thought about it that way.

从来没有这样想过。

Yeah.

是的。

Fareed Mosavat: Like we said, it's easier to connect the dots in reverse than moving forward.

Fareed Mosavat：就像我们说的，向后连接点比向前连接更容易。

I have always been not that precious about titles, career roles, et cetera.

我一直不太重视头衔、职业角色等等。

I've really found myself drawn to, "Is this an interesting problem that I believe I can bring something valuable to the table?

我真的发现自己很感兴趣，“这是一个有趣的问题，我相信我可以带来一些有价值的东西吗？

Can I help solve this in some meaningful way, and will I learn something great and new from this role?" At every step, I made those decisions.

我能以某种有意义的方式帮助解决这个问题吗？我能从这个角色中学到一些很棒的新东西吗？”在每一步中，我都做出了这些决定。

I've gone up and down the title stack from VP down to ICPM, from engineer to product, from product to this new thing and content.

我把头衔从 VP 到 ICPM，从工程师到产品，从产品到新事物和内容。

In every single one, I think it's a lot about, "What are you bringing to the table to help solve that problem?

我认为在每一个问题中，都有很多关于“你要提出什么来帮助解决这个问题？

What are you taking away from the job and learning from it, and how do you turn that into the next step?"

你从这份工作中学到了什么，从中学到了什么？你如何将其转化为下一步？”

Lenny: Awesome, and we're going to chat about a lot of those learnings from your experience going through these career journeys, but one last question on Reforge.

Lenny：太棒了，我们将讨论您从这些职业生涯中学到的很多东西，但最后一个问题是关于 Reforge 的。

Just like how big is Reforge at this point?

就像Reforge现在有多大？

How many cohorts?

有多少个队列？

How many students?

有多少学生？

How many people work there?

有多少人在那里工作？

What's the operation scale at this point?

目前运营规模是多少？

Fareed Mosavat: It's hard to count how many employees because it's growing so fast.

Fareed Mosavat：很难统计有多少员工，因为它增长得太快了。

I believe we are at just around 150 total employees across the whole company right now.

我相信目前整个公司的员工总数约为 150 人。

Fareed Mosavat: That doesn't include our executives and residents, subject matter experts, and the partners we work with.

Fareed Mosavat：这不包括我们的高管和居民、主题专家以及与我们合作的合作伙伴。

That's full-time employees working on the business.

这是从事该业务的全职员工。

Of course, we have a large product development, product design, engineering, and data teams, but also the teams that I run.

当然，我们有庞大的产品开发、产品设计、工程和数据团队，还有我管理的团队。

We call them strategy leads, content producers, content strategists, content designers, building all of that content as well as our partners team and operations team.

我们称他们为战略主管、内容制作人、内容战略家、内容设计师、构建所有这些内容以及我们的合作伙伴团队和运营团队。

So it's a relatively large company at this point.

所以目前它是一家相对较大的公司。

When I first started working with it, it was a scrappy operation of just a handful of folks, but we've grown quite a bit of over the last year.

当我第一次开始使用它时，这是一个只有少数人的斗志旺盛的运作，但我们在去年已经成长了很多。

Fareed Mosavat: With that, we support, I believe, now 19 total cohort-based programs across product, engineering, marketing, and growth-related topics as well as a bunch of new experiences that we're working on for the coming future here in the next year.

Fareed Mosavat：我相信，我们现在支持 19 个基于队列的项目，涵盖产品、工程、营销和增长相关主题，以及我们正在为明年的未来开发的一系列新体验。

We have well over 10,000 active members on the platform, about a dozen executives and residents that work to help us deliver those programs, and hundreds of partners.

我们的平台上拥有超过 10,000 名活跃会员、大约十几名致力于帮助我们实施这些计划的高管和居民，以及数百名合作伙伴。

We call them experts and operators in the space who contribute to our programs in different ways either as guests or as mentors, or helping us develop content behind the scenes.

我们称他们为该领域的专家和运营商，他们以嘉宾或导师的身份以不同的方式为我们的项目做出贡献，或者帮助我们在幕后开发内容。

Lenny: Awesome, and I taught a couple guest lectures this past cohort.

莱尼：太棒了，我在过去的队列中教授了几场客座讲座。

I think my second ever lesson was with you.

我想我的第二堂课就是和你一起上的。

You were the teacher?

你是老师吗？

Fareed Mosavat: Yes.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

We talked about instant buy, I think they're called, but I can't remember the name.

我们谈到了即时购买，我想他们被称为，但我不记得名字了。

Fareed Mosavat: On the Reforge platform for experimentation and testing program, which was, yeah, actually, also my first program that I helped lead at Reforge, and I think you were my first guest.

Fareed Mosavat：在 Reforge 平台上进行实验和测试项目，是的，实际上，这也是我在 Reforge 帮助领导的第一个项目，我想你是我的第一位客人。

Fareed Mosavat: So, thanks.

法里德·莫萨瓦特： 谢谢。

Thanks for not making me look bad.

谢谢你没有让我难堪。

Lenny: Thank you.

莱尼：谢谢。

So what's cool about your background working at Reforge and all the companies you worked at is that you've seen a lot of PM careers go well and PM careers go not so well.

因此，您在 Reforge 和您工作过的所有公司的工作背景的一个很酷的地方是，您看到很多 PM 职业发展顺利，但 PM 职业发展不太顺利。

So what I want to spend our time on is talking through just the career development journey for product managers and in particular, the challenges that PMs face trying to become better PMs and just why it's innately tricky to become better as a product manager.

因此，我想花时间讨论产品经理的职业发展历程，特别是产品经理在努力成为更好的产品经理时所面临的挑战，以及为什么成为更好的产品经理天生就很棘手。

It's such a weird job to get better at.

这是一项很奇怪的工作，需要做得更好。

So my first question is actually, why is it so hard to become better as a PM?

所以我的第一个问题实际上是，为什么成为一名更好的产品经理这么难？

Why is it innately a tricky thing to develop as a PM?

为什么成为一名 PM 天生就是一件棘手的事情？

Fareed Mosavat: One of the trickiest bits about it is that there's no clear, obvious pre-training you can do that gives you a baseline set of understanding that you can use to be a product manager.

Fareed Mosavat：最棘手的一点是，你没有可以做的清晰、明显的预培训来为你提供一套可以用来成为产品经理的基本理解。

People come from MBAs, people come from certain kinds of majors in college, et cetera, but it's not engineering where like, "Okay.

人们来自 MBA，人们来自大学的某些专业，等等，但这不是工程学，就像“好吧。

With a couple of weeks of bootcamp or a couple of years of a computer science education, I have some foundational knowledge that helps me go from zero to one in my first job." Not only does it help me break in because I have a credential that helps me land that job, and we can talk about why landing your first PM job is so hard, but also, there's not a lot of stuff that one-to-one directly correlates to the work you're going do on a day-to-day basis.

经过几周的训练营或几年的计算机科学教育，我掌握了一些基础知识，可以帮助我在第一份工作中从零到一。”它不仅可以帮助我融入进来，因为我拥有可以帮助我找到这份工作的证书，而且我们可以讨论为什么找到你的第一份 PM 工作如此困难，而且，没有很多东西与你每天要做的工作一对一直接相关。

Fareed Mosavat: I think there's an idea that Naval Ravikant talked about on Twitter and in blog posts a long time ago, this concept of specific knowledge that can only be gathered by actually doing the work.

Fareed Mosavat：我认为 Naval Ravikant 很久以前在 Twitter 和博客文章中谈到了一个想法，即只有通过实际工作才能收集的特定知识的概念。

A lot of product management, really, is like that.

事实上，很多产品管理都是这样的。

You get better by doing it, and so you start in the same place, if that makes sense.

通过这样做你会变得更好，所以你从同一个地方开始，如果这有意义的话。

Of course, there are different skills and intellectual capacities, et cetera that help different people be more successful at it, but at the end of the day, you don't know if a PM is going to be great until they start doing that work.

当然，有不同的技能和智力等可以帮助不同的人在这方面取得更大的成功，但最终，在他们开始做这项工作之前，你不知道 PM 是否会很棒。

So I think that's one of the pieces that's very hard.

所以我认为这是非常困难的部分之一。

Fareed Mosavat: The second is the thing I just alluded to, which is breaking in and getting your first role.

Fareed Mosavat：第二个就是我刚才提到的，那就是闯入并获得你的第一个角色。

It's just a very difficult situation for a lot of companies, and there are a couple of different paths to it, but none of them are straightforward.

对于很多公司来说，这是一个非常困难的局面，有几种不同的路径可以实现，但没有一条是直截了当的。

There's no clear linear path, except for maybe being a Stanford or Harvard grad, top-tier school grad, NCS with an internship, goes to Google to do an APM program.

没有明确的线性路径，除了可能是斯坦福大学或哈佛大学的毕业生、顶尖学校的毕业生、NCS 实习生、去 Google 做 APM 项目。

There are a couple of these things that are surefire, but I don't think they guarantee success, and they are actually very limited in terms of the number of people that they let into the business.

其中有一些事情是肯定会发生的，但我认为它们并不能保证成功，而且就他们允许进入该行业的人数而言，它们实际上非常有限。

Fareed Mosavat: So I think this is what makes it so hard is that there's not any upfront training you can really do to prepare yourself or even knock down the door to break in.

法里德·莫萨瓦特（Fareed Mosavat）：所以我认为这之所以如此困难，是因为你没有任何真正可以做的前期培训来让自己做好准备，甚至无法敲开大门闯入。

But then, also, it's not clear there's a lot of training within a company that would help you be successful generally on the job of product management.

但同时，也不清楚公司内部是否有大量培训可以帮助您在产品管理工作中取得成功。

You can learn how to be a good PM at Google, you can learn to be a good PM at Facebook, but it is up to each individual PM to figure out how to generalize what they're doing to move from different kinds of product across different kinds of product work as they get more senior to solve bigger problems, et cetera.

你可以学习如何在 Google 成为一名优秀的 PM，你可以学习如何在 Facebook 成为一名优秀的 PM，但是每个 PM 都需要弄清楚如何概括他们正在做的事情，以便随着他们的级别越来越高来解决更大的问题，从不同类型的产品转向不同类型的产品工作，等等。

Fareed Mosavat: So what we tried to do at Reforge is we are focused on helping people accelerate that learning loop.

Fareed Mosavat：因此，我们在 Reforge 所做的就是专注于帮助人们加速学习循环。

It's not, "Hey, if you take this class, now you're qualified to be a PM." It's not really like that.

这并不是说，“嘿，如果你参加了这门课程，现在你就有资格成为一名产品经理了。”事实并非如此。

I don't know if that's possible.

我不知道这是否可能。

I hope it will be someday, but it is very difficult.

我希望有一天会实现，但这非常困难。

I think it's more, "Hey, we want to help you when you encounter certain kinds of problems, not have to solve them from first principles, but following the footsteps of the people who have done great work in the past, generalize those lessons." But at the end of the day, you still have to get down and do the work.

我认为更多的是，“嘿，当你遇到某些类型的问题时，我们想帮助你，不必从第一原则来解决它们，而是追随过去做出伟大工作的人们的脚步，总结那些经验教训。”但到了最后，你还是得坐下来做工作。

Fareed Mosavat: You can't do homework, you can't do exercises, you can't do fake stuff.

Fareed Mosavat：你不能做作业，你不能做练习，你不能做假事情。

You have to work on real products at real companies with real customers, with real data to get better at product management.

你必须在真实的​​公司、真实的客户、真实的数据上开发真实的产品，才能更好地进行产品管理。

So any kind of training, mentorship, reading, et cetera that you do is just a layer on top of that.

因此，你所做的任何类型的培训、指导、阅读等都只是在此之上的一层。

The real acceleration happens from doing it and getting more reps.

真正的加速来自于做这件事并获得更多次数。

There are ways that I think great PMs use to go faster on this loop, but you still have to do the work.

我认为优秀的产品经理可以使用一些方法来加快这个循环，但你仍然需要完成工作。

At the core is you have to actually execute and deliver great products, and you have to do it over, and over, and over again.

核心是你必须实际执行和交付出色的产品，并且你必须一遍又一遍地这样做。

Lenny: Yes.

莱尼：是的。

Let's absolutely dig into that.

让我们深入探讨一下。

Let me put out a couple mental models that I'm thinking as you're talking.

让我列出一些在你说话时我正在思考的心理模型。

Lenny: One is just if you think about a pie chart of a great PM's career and/or investments they make along their career journey, how do you break up that pie chart?

Lenny：其中一个问题是，如果您考虑一个伟大 PM 的职业生涯和/或他们在职业生涯中所做的投资的饼图，您如何分解该饼图？

Like some percentage is doing the work, some percentage is courses, maybe some percentage is books.

就像一部分人在做工作，一部分人在做课程，一部分人可能在做书本。

So just putting that out there in case that's useful to think about, and then the other is thinking about the trajectory of a PM on a line chart, and what are these inflection points that you've seen most impact the career trajectory of a PM?

因此，只需将其放在那里，以防万一思考有用，然后另一个是在折线图上思考 PM 的轨迹，以及您所看到的对 PM 职业轨迹影响最大的这些拐点是什么？

Fareed Mosavat: So let's start at the first one, the pie chart idea.

Fareed Mosavat：所以让我们从第一个开始，即饼图想法。

What percent is spent on different things?

在不同的事情上花费了多少百分比？

Unsurprisingly because Reforge is all about growth loops, I think of this in terms of a loop actually, which is like, "What is that learning or career acceleration, or ability acceleration loop?

毫不奇怪，因为 Reforge 都是关于增长循环的，所以我实际上从循环的角度来思考这一点，就像“学习或职业加速或能力加速循环是什么？

At the core, again, at the top of the loop is execution.

同样，循环顶部的核心是执行。

You have to have a real problem.

你必须有一个真正的问题。

You're working on with real customers that you want to solve in some way.

您正在与真正的客户合作，并希望以某种方式解决这些问题。

So, you're executing.

所以，你正在执行。

You're delivering.

你正在送货。

You're learning at the beginning.

你在一开始就在学习。

It's all about execution.

一切都与执行有关。

So we'll start with the pie chart at the beginning.

所以我们首先从饼图开始。

It's almost all execution.

几乎都是执行。

Fareed Mosavat: What are the problems you give a junior or brand new PM?

Fareed Mosavat：您给初级或新任总理提出了哪些问题？

Known problem, known solution.

已知问题，已知解决方案。

"Please work with engineering and design to deliver that thing on time, and then tell us what happened." So it's like a very tightly constrained problem.

“请与工程和设计部门合作，按时交付该产品，然后告诉我们发生了什么。”所以这就像一个非常严格约束的问题。

As you level up, then some of these things become more unknowns.

当你升级时，其中一些事情会变得更加未知。

So there's execution, but I think the next step that great product managers do is they think about how to generalize that execution a little bit.

所以有执行力，但我认为优秀的产品经理下一步要做的就是思考如何概括执行力。

So it's not just, "Okay.

所以这不仅仅是“好吧。

Now, I know what the best settings page for Slack is." It's, "What generalizations did you make?

现在，我知道 Slack 的最佳设置页面是什么。” 而是，“你做了什么概括？

What are the things that you can take that are applicable to other stuff?"

你可以采取哪些适用于其他事物的东西？”

Fareed Mosavat: Some of that is execution-oriented, how to best work with engineers, how to iterate on designs, what customers do and don't do, rules of thumb, those kinds of things.

Fareed Mosavat：其中一些是以执行为导向的，如何最好地与工程师合作，如何迭代设计，客户做什么和不做什么，经验法则，诸如此类的事情。

I think that's where reading courses, et cetera can help because sometimes by bringing other...

我认为这就是阅读课程等可以提供帮助的地方，因为有时通过带来其他......

or one-on-one conversations with experts, et cetera.

或者与专家进行一对一的对话等等。

There are a whole bunch of different ways, but is that the generalization step?

有很多不同的方法，但这就是泛化步骤吗？

"Hey, I did this thing.

“嘿嘿，这件事是我做的。

Oh, other people have done something similar.

哦，其他人也做过类似的事情。

How do I connect the dots on that?

我如何将这些点联系起来？

How do I make this experience bigger than what I've just done and lead me to help solve other problems?"

我如何让这次经历比我刚刚所做的更重要，并引导我帮助解决其他问题？”

Lenny: These are things you're doing in your head, basically.

莱尼：基本上，这些都是你在脑子里做的事情。

You're just developing frameworks, mental models, things that you're just taking with you to the next project in your mind.

你只是在开发框架、心智模型，以及你只是将其带到你脑海中的下一个项目中的东西。

Fareed Mosavat: Exactly.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：确实如此。

So, to use an example, there was a time at Instacart where we were working on onboarding, brand new onboarding and activation flow for customers.

举个例子，有一段时间，我们在 Instacart 致力于为客户提供引导、全新的引导和激活流程。

We tried a lot of different stuff.

我们尝试了很多不同的东西。

We tried the slimmest, fastest, lowest friction, least number of steps path in, and then we had this hypothesis about helping people get set up.

我们尝试了最纤细、最快、摩擦最小、步数最少的路径，然后我们有了帮助人们入门的假设。

So we took the opposite approach, which was a really long onboarding with a bunch of different steps and wanted to see, "Was that more effective or less effective?"

因此，我们采取了相反的方法，这是一个非常漫长的入职过程，包含一系列不同的步骤，并想看看“这是否更有效或更无效？”

Fareed Mosavat: The generalization is, "Oh, for products that had a high bar to activation, sometimes more set up and higher friction, good friction could actually help those customers be successful.

Fareed Mosavat：概括来说，“哦，对于激活门槛较高的产品，有时需要更多的设置和更高的摩擦力，良好的摩擦力实际上可以帮助这些客户取得成功。

There are other kinds of products that are high-intent where they know what they need to do to have simple actions where lowering friction might be the right thing." So, that's a generalization.

还有其他类型的产品具有高意图，它们知道需要做什么才能采取简单的行动，而降低摩擦可能是正确的事情。”所以，这是一个概括。

It's a generalization of, "Oh, I learned a thing." It's a hypothesis about how that might generalize other kinds of products or other kinds of problems that you approach.

这是“哦，我学到了一件事”的概括。这是一个关于如何推广其他类型的产品或您处理的其他类型的问题的假设。

I think some of that can come from seeing it from the outside, listening to a podcast, hearing you say it, taking a course, et cetera.

我认为其中一些可以来自于从外部看到它、听播客、听你说、参加课程等等。

But at the end of the day, you have to experience it to see how it applies to the world.

但最终，你必须体验它才能了解它如何应用于世界。

Fareed Mosavat: Then, the next bit is communication, and I think this is a bit that a lot of product managers, obviously, and any job miss, but you can't just do the work.

Fareed Mosavat：接下来是沟通，我认为这是很多产品经理显然以及任何工作都会错过的一点，但你不能只做工作。

You have to actually communicate the work.

你必须实际交流工作。

You have to talk about what you're doing, what you've generalized, what you've learned so that you can hit the next step, which is scale your opportunities.

你必须谈论你正在做的事情、你归纳的内容、你学到的东西，这样你才能进行下一步，即扩大你的机会。

Go from smaller known problem, known solution to maybe known problem, unknown solution type of work, which is the next step.

从较小的已知问题、已知解决方案到可能已知问题、未知解决方案类型的工作，这是下一步。

Fareed Mosavat: Then, eventually, to where you want to be as a senior, great, high-level individual contributor PM to the not quite known problem, maybe a goal with a set of problems and unknown solutions, unknown problems, unknown solutions, where you're actually identifying customer problems and moving towards on that.

Fareed Mosavat：然后，最终，你想成为一名高级、伟大、高水平的个人贡献者 PM，解决不太为人所知的问题，也许是一个包含一系列问题和未知解决方案的目标，未知的问题，未知的解决方案，你实际上是在识别客户问题并朝着这个目标迈进。

So scaling up your opportunity, and then executing again.

因此，扩大你的机会，然后再次执行。

I think of this as a loop of learning, and so of course, the percentages change over time as you move more senior in your career, but also, depending on where you're at in the step that the percentages change.

我认为这是一个学习循环，所以当然，随着你在职业生涯中晋升，百分比会随着时间的推移而变化，但也取决于你在百分比变化的步骤中所处的位置。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So, just to recap, execute, just do the work, just ship.

所以，回顾一下，执行，完成工作，交付。

Lenny: Generalize learnings from shipping to build up your gut feeling of what will work and not work.

莱尼：概括从运输中学到的知识，建立你对什么有效、什么无效的直觉。

Lenny: Learn to communicate things you're doing, and then scale the things that you're executing based on this gut feeling you're building, and communicate that out, and just continue.

莱尼：学会沟通你正在做的事情，然后根据你正在建立的直觉来扩展你正在执行的事情，并将其传达出来，然后继续。

Do you think scaling take on more scope or have more impact?

您认为规模扩大会带来更大的范围还是产生更大的影响？

Is that how you think about scaling, that last piece?

这就是你对最后一块缩放的看法吗？

Fareed Mosavat: Yeah.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：是的。

I think it's one moving from knowns to unknowns.

我认为这是从已知走向未知的过程。

Fareed Mosavat: So like you're being given a hairier, harder to untangle types of problems with more unknowns and more autonomy.

Fareed Mosavat：就像你被赋予了一个更棘手、更难解决的问题，更多的未知数和更多的自主权。

I think the second is, yeah, of course, with...

我认为第二个是，是的，当然，...

although I think for the beginning of your career, you tend to go deeper.

尽管我认为在你职业生涯的开始阶段，你往往会走得更深。

So it's like, "Okay.

所以就像是，“好吧。

I'm going to work on growth, let's say, or core product, or zero-to-one products, or technical scaling, whatever it is.

我将致力于增长，比如说，核心产品，零到一产品，或技术扩展，无论是什么。

I'm going to go deeper on that," and then over time, that turns into width, but this is why the generalization step is important.

我将更深入地探讨这一点，”然后随着时间的推移，它会变成宽度，但这就是泛化步骤如此重要的原因。

Fareed Mosavat: If you want to be a product leader, you cannot be seen solely as a specialist in that certain kind of product work, and so the generalization step is really important.

Fareed Mosavat：如果你想成为一名产品领导者，你不能仅仅被视为某类产品工作的专家，因此泛化步骤非常重要。

If you want to move from growth to core product, you need to show that you're not just running experiments and driving numbers up.

如果你想从增长转向核心产品，你需要表明你不仅仅是进行实验和推动数字上升。

You need to show and communicate that you're learning deeper lessons about how customer psychology works, and what products people resonate with, and how to think about the business more holistically, and then communication.

您需要表明并传达您正在学习更深入的课程，例如客户心理如何发挥作用，人们会对哪些产品产生共鸣，以及如何更全面地思考业务，然后进行沟通。

No one knows what you're thinking if you don't tell them.

如果你不告诉他们，没有人知道你在想什么。

So if you don't communicate, you don't have control over those scaled opportunities.

因此，如果你不沟通，你就无法控制这些规模化的机会。

Usually, your manager, or the organization, or the company does.

通常，您的经理、组织或公司会这样做。

Maybe by switching jobs, you have some control, but you need to earn that right.

也许通过换工作，你可以拥有一定的控制权，但你需要赢得这种权利。

You need to communicate.

你们需要沟通。

That's why I think there's pieces of the loop you can control and pieces that are externalized.

这就是为什么我认为循环的某些部分是您可以控制的，而有些部分是外部化的。

Lenny: I'm curious, in your own career, what the biggest inflections of growth have been either in terms of learning, or impact, or just opportunity?

莱尼：我很好奇，在您自己的职业生涯中，最大的成长变化是在学习、影响还是机会方面？

Fareed Mosavat: The first big one was when I switched from being an engineer to being a product...

Fareed Mosavat：第一个重大事件是当我从工程师转向产品时......

I didn't even know it was product management, but a product leader of some kind.

我什至不知道这是产品管理，而是某种产品负责人。

I think there are two things that happen.

我认为发生了两件事。

One is you got to be doing this stuff, but often, somebody needs to see it.

一是你必须做这些事情，但通常，需要有人看到它。

The scale opportunity piece of the step often requires someone from outside to notice that you're doing something really well and trust you with a bigger opportunity.

扩大机会这一步骤通常需要外部人员注意到您在某件事上做得非常好，并相信您会获得更大的机会。

I think of this as sponsorship, not mentorship.

我认为这是赞助，而不是指导。

I don't necessarily find that in my career.

在我的职业生涯中我不一定会发现这一点。

I've had a lot of managers where I'm like, "Wow, their day-to-day help was super awesome at helping me be a better leader."

我遇到过很多经理，我会说：“哇，他们的日常帮助非常出色，帮助我成为一名更好的领导者。”

Fareed Mosavat: I hope that I've been that for some people, but I don't have a ton of examples of that in my career.

Fareed Mosavat：我希望我对某些人来说就是这样，但在我的职业生涯中并没有很多这样的例子。

But what I do have is a couple examples of people who deeply trusted me to solve big problems, and I don't know.

但我确实有几个例子，他们深信我能解决大问题，但我不知道。

I'm lucky to have had that or otherwise, but one was a CEO of that startup who's now a venture capitalist.

我很幸运有过这样的经历或其他经历，但其中一位是那家初创公司的首席执行官，现在是一名风险投资家。

His name is Nabeel Hyatt.

他的名字叫纳比尔·海厄特。

I was like, "Hey, you seem to understand the data better than anybody here.

我当时想，“嘿，你似乎比这里的任何人都更了解数据。

You're solving these problems.

你正在解决这些问题。

Help us figure out what we're going to do next," which now we call product management.

帮助我们弄清楚下一步要做什么”，现在我们称之为产品管理。

Fareed Mosavat: It's a game company.

Fareed Mosavat：这是一家游戏公司。

Then, eventually, I was the director of product for our Boston studio.

然后，最终，我成为了我们波士顿工作室的产品总监。

The next was at Slack.

下一个是在 Slack。

I was an ICPM working on activation and growth on a team of three or four other PMs, and there were a couple of moments where by communicating my work and talking through how I was solving problems, people noticed that I knew what I was doing and gave me bigger and bigger opportunities.

我是一名 ICPM，在一个由三四个其他 PM 组成的团队中负责激活和成长，有几次，通过交流我的工作并谈论我如何解决问题，人们注意到我知道自己在做什么，并给了我越来越大的机会。

One of those was Merci Grace, who I think has been on your pod and was a wonderful sponsor for me.

其中之一是 Merci Grace，我想他一直在你的 Pod 中，并且对我来说是一个很棒的赞助商。

Then, again, when Merci left, April Underwood, who's the CPO, said, "It seems like you have a handle on this.

然后，当 Merci 离开时，首席产品官艾普丽尔·安德伍德 (April Underwood) 说道：“看来你已经掌握了这件事。

I'd like you to take on a bigger range of problems across all of this growth and not just the modernization piece that I've been working on before." So I think in each of those steps it's about creating trust and knowing that you have a sponsor there, someone who's going to go to bat for you.

我希望你能在整个增长过程中解决更多的问题，而不仅仅是我之前一直在研究的现代化问题。”因此，我认为在每一个步骤中，都是为了建立信任，并知道你有一个赞助商，一个会为你奋斗的人。

Lenny: I really love this point of sponsorship.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢这一点的赞助。

We haven't talked a lot about this on the podcast.

我们在播客上还没有对此进行太多讨论。

There's a lot of talk of finding a coach or having a manager that teaches you how to do the job, but this idea of just getting to a place where someone gives you an opportunity to shine, and that's been really big in my career just like certain managers just, "Here, Lenny.

很多人都在谈论寻找一位教练或拥有一位经理来教你如何完成工作，但这种想法就是去一个能给你机会发光的地方，这在我的职业生涯中非常重要，就像某些经理一样，“在这里，莱尼。

You take this, and let's see what you can do."

你拿着这个，让我们看看你能做什么。”

Lenny: Is there anything else you can recommend to folks to create opportunities for sponsorship?

莱尼：您还有什么可以推荐给人们来创造赞助机会的吗？

You talked about communication, executing well.

你谈到了沟通和执行力。

Is that just the core of it, like doing a great job and communicating the great job you're doing?

这只是它的核心吗，比如做好工作并传达你正在做的出色工作？

Fareed Mosavat: This idea that it's what you do and that's multiplied by your ability to show that work and communicate it, and that's the impact that you can have, but you have to have not just impact on the customers, but also on the organization.

Fareed Mosavat：这种想法是，这就是你所做的事情，乘以你展示工作和沟通工作的能力，这就是你可以产生的影响，但你不仅要对客户产生影响，还要对组织产生影响。

I think it is impact on the organization, changing the way people think about problems, helping generalize what works and what doesn't work, bringing learnings to the table.

我认为这对组织有影响，改变人们思考问题的方式，帮助总结什么有效，什么无效，将经验教训带到桌面上。

Fareed Mosavat: For me, I've worked a lot on growth, and I've treated a huge part of my job as not just moving the numbers, but also teaching the organization how our growth model works, how the pieces fit together, what our customers care about, what's working, what's not working, and that creates a lot of, A, leverage in other parts of the organization because they can do better work by having more information, but also, B, trust.

Fareed Mosavat：对我来说，我在增长方面做了很多工作，我的工作的很大一部分不仅仅是移动数字，而且还教导组织我们的增长模式如何运作，各个部分如何组合在一起，我们的客户关心什么，什么有效，什么无效，这在组织的其他部分创造了很多，A，杠杆，因为他们可以通过拥有更多信息来更好地工作，而且，B，信任。

Trust from leadership, trust from your peers, and otherwise.

来自领导的信任、来自同事的信任等等。

Fareed Mosavat: So, now, how do you get to that?

Fareed Mosavat：那么，现在你是如何做到这一点的呢？

Some of it is just luck.

其中一些只是运气。

Someone has got to believe in you.

必须有人相信你。

You can create your luck by being good at communicating and solving hard problems.

你可以通过善于沟通和解决难题来创造你的运气。

I think the other piece is knowing when you go into an organization, "Is this a role that's important to the company?

我认为另一件事是当你进入一个组织时要知道，“这个角色对公司来说重要吗？

Is it on the list?" I think it is easier to find sponsors, communicate, and create leverage if the thing you're working on is in the top four or five most important things the company is working on.

它在清单上吗？”我认为，如果你正在做的事情是公司正在做的最重要的四到五个事情之一，那么找到赞助商、沟通和创造影响力会更容易。

I find myself drawn to those kinds of problems, and I think that's one way because then, all of a sudden, CEOs notice what you're working on, heads of product notice what you're working on, and your peers notice what you're working on.

我发现自己被这类问题所吸引，我认为这是一种方式，因为突然间，首席执行官注意到你在做什么，产品负责人注意到你在做什么，你的同事也注意到你在做什么。

Fareed Mosavat: The other bit is curiosity.

Fareed Mosavat：另一点是好奇心。

I think to be in the seat where people want to sponsor you, I think you have to show a handle on not just what you're doing, but how that relates to all of the things around you.

我认为，要想坐在人们想要赞助你的位置上，我认为你不仅必须掌控自己正在做的事情，还要掌控它与你周围所有事物的关系。

So I call this going two stack levels up, two stack levels down in terms of your curiosity and what you understand, and also, knowing what's to the left and what's to the right.

因此，根据您的好奇心和您的理解，以及了解左侧和右侧的内容，我将其称为向上两个堆栈级别，向下两个堆栈级别。

So let's use the example of if I'm working on activation on growth, let's say, or monetization.

因此，让我们以我正在致力于增长激活或货币化为例。

It doesn't matter.

没关系。

One of those two pieces.

这两块中的一块。

When I say two stack levels down, I like to understand how we build customers, how it works in Stripe, what are our dunning policies, what are the technical things that work and don't work in the pieces maybe down to the database.

当我说向下两个堆栈级别时，我喜欢了解我们如何建立客户，它在 Stripe 中如何工作，我们的催款政策是什么，哪些技术部分有效，哪些无效（可能具体到数据库）。

Right?

对吗？

Fareed Mosavat: It's like technical curiosity, those kinds of things, but also mental models for what's above you.

Fareed Mosavat：这就像技术上的好奇心，诸如此类的东西，而且还有对你之上的事物的心理模型。

How do we grow?

我们如何成长？

How does modernization fit into that?

现代化如何融入其中？

What are the trade-offs versus free growth versus paid growth?

自由增长与付费增长之间的权衡是什么？

How important is this to the company?

这对公司有多重要？

How does it fit into our long-term strategy?

它如何适应我们的长期战略？

Those kinds of things.

诸如此类的事情。

So it's like the strategic things above you.

所以这就像你上面的战略性事情。

I like two stack levels because it's like you should understand your boss's priorities and your boss's boss's priorities.

我喜欢两个堆栈级别，因为这就像你应该了解你老板的优先事项和你老板的老板的优先事项。

Eventually, that means you have to know what the board is thinking, right?

最终，这意味着你必须知道董事会的想法，对吗？

Then, left and right is, "What are the core product teams working on that I could help advise on in terms of modernization or they could advise me on what they're thinking and what might be coming next?

然后，左边和右边是，“我可以在现代化方面提供建议的核心产品团队有哪些，或者他们可以就他们的想法以及接下来可能发生的事情向我提供建议？

How do we fit together with the enterprise part of the business even though I'm working on self-serve?

即使我从事自助服务，我们如何与业务的企业部分配合？

How do I think about sales?

我如何看待销售？

Do they have input, like interesting customer conversations or input?

他们是否有意见，例如有趣的客户对话或意见？

Fareed Mosavat: It's this curiosity like walking around, getting to know what people are doing, and being seen as an expert.

Fareed Mosavat：这种好奇心就像四处走动，了解人们在做什么，并被视为专家。

Are you the desk people go to when they have questions?

当人们有问题时，你是他们的咨询台吗？

Are you a person that people ask the opinion when you're trying to figure out how the dots connect?

当你试图弄清楚这些点之间的联系时，人们会向你征求意见吗？

I have found for me, maybe this is just because this is a strength of mine, that connecting the dots of how the whole company works and how all the pieces fit together has been one of the ways that I've driven that sponsorship.

我发现，也许这只是因为这是我的优势，将整个公司如何运作以及所有各个部分如何组合在一起的各个点连接起来是我推动赞助的方式之一。

I think for each individual, you have to figure out what your superpower is and where you can be actually top 10%, and then lean into opportunities and also problems that help you show that and shine it that way.

我认为对于每个人来说，你都必须弄清楚你的超能力是什么，以及你在哪里可以真正成为前 10%，然后抓住机会和问题来帮助你展示这一能力并以这种方式发光。

Lenny: That is such cool advice.

莱尼：这是非常酷的建议。

I think what's cool about that is I imagine you just go to your manager and even just ask, "Hey, I'd love to understand just what are your highest priorities, and then what are your manager's?" Just ask these questions.

我认为这很酷的是，我想你只要去找你的经理，甚至只是问，“嘿，我很想了解你的最高优先事项是什么，然后你的经理的优先事项是什么？”只要问这些问题就可以了。

Just that alone I think communicates a lot about how much you care and your interest there, and that creates trust, even if you don't do a ton with it, and knowing what your manager cares about is just going to help in so many other ways just like, "Okay.

我认为仅凭这一点就可以传达出很多关于你对那里的关心和兴趣的信息，这会产生信任，即使你没有做很多事情，并且知道你的经理关心什么只会在很多其他方面提供帮助，就像，“好吧。

This matters to them.

这对他们来说很重要。

I'm going to make sure to do a good job there."

我将确保在那里做好工作。”

Lenny: So that is a really cool framework.

Lenny：所以这是一个非常酷的框架。

Fareed Mosavat: Not only do a good job there, but I'm going to figure out how to communicate what I'm doing to be only the parts that are important and matter to them.

Fareed Mosavat：不仅要做好工作，而且我还要弄清楚如何将我正在做的事情传达给他们，让他们只关注重要的部分。

I'm going to know that when I hit a certain decision that needs to be made, whether I need their input or not.

我会知道，当我做出某个需要做出的决定时，我是否需要他们的意见。

There are all these different pieces like understanding when to be heads-down, when to be heads-up, when to communicate, when not to, but I think understanding how all the pieces fit together, you really just try, and I always think of it as trying to build a mental model of how the company works, and what's important to it, and what's the equation, so to speak, or what are all the boxes, and then figure out like, "How is my work creating leverage in that?" I find that when you are thinking at that level, people tend to trust you.

有很多不同的部分，比如理解什么时候低头，什么时候抬头，什么时候沟通，什么时候不沟通，但我认为理解所有这些部分如何组合在一起，你真的只是尝试，我总是认为这是试图建立一个关于公司如何运作的心智模型，什么对公司重要，什么是等式，可以这么说，或者所有的盒子是什么，然后弄清楚，“我的工作如何在其中创造影响力？”我发现当你在这个层面上思考时，人们往往会信任你。

Lenny: The core of trust is people.

莱尼：信任的核心是人。

Your manager and their leaders need to feel like you will do a good job and a bigger responsibility, and what gives them trust?

你的经理和他们的领导者需要感觉你会做好工作并承担更大的责任，什么给了他们信任？

Oh, they do a good job, or they're curious, and excited, and understand all these things that they need to understand.

哦，他们做得很好，或者他们很好奇，很兴奋，并且理解所有这些他们需要理解的事情。

So it all makes sense, and I'm always weary of asking PMs to do more work.

所以这一切都是有道理的，而且我总是厌倦要求产品经理做更多的工作。

It's such a busy, long hours job already, and what's cool about these things you're talking about is it's not necessarily a lot more work.

这已经是一项忙碌、长时间的工作了，而你所谈论的这些事情的酷之处在于它不一定需要更多的工作。

It's just a little bit of research and a little bit of digging and thinking.

只是一点点研究，一点点挖掘和思考。

Fareed Mosavat: Yeah.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：是的。

I think the hard part of this is I have not figured out how to do this well in a remote environment without throwing a lot of one-on-ones on people's calendars because sometimes you figured this out just by hearing conversations, hang out at lunch, and asking questions, and those kinds of things, but it's certainly not impossible.

我认为其中困难的部分是，我还没有弄清楚如何在远程环境中做好这件事，而不需要在人们的日历上投入大量的一对一的时间，因为有时你只是通过听对话、在午餐时闲逛、提出问题以及诸如此类的事情来解决这个问题，但这当然不是不可能的。

You just have to work out a little more,

你只需要多锻炼一点

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or you're going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。

Also, if you want to sell it to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

另外，如果你想把它卖给企业，证明安全性是必不可少的。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。

If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table, but getting a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.

如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能甚至无法获得席位，但获得 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。

It's time-consuming, tedious, and expensive.

这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。

Lenny: Enter, Vanta.

莱尼：请进，万塔。

Over 3,000 fast growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.

超过 3,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

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在有限的时间内，Lenny's Podcast 听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

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只需访问vanta.com/lenny。

That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discount.

请访问 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny 了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: So I know something you spend a lot of time thinking about is the transition from an ICPM to a manager, and you have this really epic post that I think you call the Product Leader Canyon that you think of this as a canyon that a lot of PMs don't cross.

Lenny：所以我知道您花了很多时间思考从 ICPM 到经理的转变，您有一个非常史诗般的职位，我认为您将其称为“产品领导者峡谷”，您认为这是许多 PM 无法跨越的峡谷。

So I want to spend a little bit of time here.

所以我想在这里花一点时间。

Can you maybe just talk about what this canyon is, and why it exists?

您能否谈谈这个峡谷是什么以及它为何存在？

Fareed Mosavat: Yeah.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：是的。

We talked a little bit about the first of very hard part in product management career development, which is like, "How do I land my first job?" Not a pro at that.

我们讨论了产品管理职业发展中第一个非常困难的部分，就像“我如何找到第一份工作？”不是专业人士。

We can talk about that more, but then this path from IC to more senior IC working on bigger problems that have more business impact, et cetera, it's a relatively straightforward path.

我们可以对此进行更多讨论，但是从 IC 到更高级的 IC 的路径致力于解决具有更大业务影响的更大问题，等等，这是一条相对简单的路径。

We just talked about some of the ways that you do that.

我们刚刚讨论了做到这一点的一些方法。

You get a deeper understanding across a wider range of business problems.

您可以更深入地了解更广泛的业务问题。

You solve more unknowns versus being handed problems to solve, et cetera, and you do that by being good at your job.

你解决了更多的未知数，而不是被交给要解决的问题等等，并且你通过擅长你的工作来做到这一点。

You do that by being good at your job basically as a solo product manager on an island.

你可以通过在岛上担任独立产品经理来做好自己的工作来做到这一点。

Fareed Mosavat: We talked about communication and those kinds of things, but at the end of the day, like we described, most of the work is execution.

Fareed Mosavat：我们讨论了沟通之类的事情，但最终，正如我们所描述的，大部分工作都是执行。

Most of the work is partnering with your engineering manager, partnering with your designer and your team to build stuff and deliver stuff.

大部分工作是与您的工程经理合作，与您的设计师和团队合作来构建和交付内容。

You've gotten there by being really good at that.

你已经做到了这一点，因为你真的很擅长这一点。

Right?

正确的？

You've gotten there by getting in the weeds, getting in the details, sweating what matters, working hard at it.

你是通过深入了解、关注细节、专注于重要的事情、努力工作来实现这一目标的。

So someone says, "We'd love for you to lead this team." Great.

于是有人说：“我们希望你能领导这个团队。”伟大的。

It's really easy to look at that and say, "Okay.

很容易看到这一点并说：“好吧。

Now, instead of owning free to paid conversion, I own growth overall."

现在，我不再拥有免费到付费的转化，而是拥有整体的增长。”

Fareed Mosavat: The first thing you do is start to figure out, "What are the most interesting and valuable projects that I can work on?

Fareed Mosavat：你要做的第一件事就是开始弄清楚，“我可以从事的最有趣和最有价值的项目是什么？

As an IC, I can only have one person on my team to go dive in and work on those things to make a lot of leverage." This can create a little bit of a spiral of failure because it's the hard job.

作为一名 IC，我的团队中只能有一个人深入研究这些事情，从而发挥很大的作用。”这可能会导致失败，因为这是一项艰巨的工作。

The IC part of the job is really hard.

IC部分的工作确实很辛苦。

So, now, I gave you more work across more things, and you're already working 56 hours a week.

所以，现在，我给了你更多的工作，涉及更多的事情，而你已经每周工作 56 小时。

Now, you got to keep track of more projects across more teams and more people, and maybe you kept the two or three most critical ones to yourself.

现在，您必须跟踪更多团队和更多人员的更多项目，并且也许您将两三个最关键的项目留给自己。

Fareed Mosavat: So that's one angle is learning about, yes, it's probably the right thing in the near term for you to focus, and work on this, and be really directive about what to do, and get in every single detail, and make sure you deliver the best product.

Fareed Mosavat：所以这是一个学习的角度，是的，这可能是近期你应该关注的正确的事情，并致力于此，并真正指导要做什么，并了解每一个细节，并确保交付最好的产品。

But long run, you've taken a learning opportunity away from someone else, and you've taken the opportunity for you to be a leveraged person that is more valuable than just their time away as well.

但从长远来看，你从别人那里夺走了学习的机会，并且你抓住了这个机会，让自己成为一个比他们离开的时间更有价值的人。

So I think that's one piece that drives a lot of failures, just this like, "Okay.

所以我认为这是导致很多失败的一个因素，就像，“好吧。

Now, I have more problems to work on.

现在，我还有更多的问题需要解决。

I'm going to go deeper on it," and handing the people on your team the least interesting, least leveraged, least fun stuff to do, thinking that's how you get to like, "Oh, now, I get to work on the fun projects, and the interesting and high-leverage ones, and I'll leave all the other ones to other people."

我会更深入地研究它，”并把最不有趣、最没有杠杆作用、最无趣的事情交给你的团队中的人去做，认为这就是你喜欢的方式，“哦，现在，我开始从事有趣的项目，以及有趣和高杠杆的项目，我会把所有其他的事情留给其他人。”

Lenny: I think you call this the manager death spiral.

莱尼：我想你称之为经理死亡螺旋。

Is that the same?

是一样的吗？

Fareed Mosavat: Yeah.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：是的。

Yeah, manager death spiral.

是的，经理死亡螺旋。

Fareed Mosavat: This is not unique to product management.

Fareed Mosavat：这并不是产品管理所独有的。

This happens in almost every leadership role.

几乎每个领导角色都会发生这种情况。

You're in a position.

你处于一个位置。

You have broader responsibility.

你有更广泛的责任。

You got there by being the best IC on the team probably, so your instincts are to, "I see a bunch of important stuff," and do management stuff too.

你可能是团队中最好的 IC，所以你的直觉是，“我看到了很多重要的东西”，并且也做管理工作。

Right?

正确的？

Lenny: People may be like, "Oh, shit.

莱尼：人们可能会说，“哦，糟糕。

How do I avoid this death spiral?" Do you have any advice?

我该如何避免这种死亡螺旋？”你有什么建议吗？

Maybe you'll get there, but just how do you avoid this death spiral of keeping all the good stuff and just not scaling yourself?

也许你会到达那里，但你如何避免这种保留所有好东西而不扩展自己的死亡螺旋呢？

Fareed Mosavat: I think the first is, honestly, just you have to start trusting other people, which is not common to where you've been till today, but you have to start trusting.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：老实说，我认为第一是你必须开始信任其他人，这在你今天所处的地方并不常见，但你必须开始信任。

You have to shift from doer to editor is the way I think about it.

我的想法是，你必须从实干者转变为编辑者。

You have to shift from, "My job is to do the work," to, "My job is to make the work better.

你必须从“我的工作是完成工作”转变为“我的工作是让工作变得更好”。

My job is to plus the work, to review the work, to help other people solve problem." Sometimes that's by being directive.

我的工作就是补充工作、回顾工作、帮助其他人解决问题。”有时这是通过指导。

Right?

正确的？

Fareed Mosavat: Sometimes that's by letting them run because you're like, "Lenny, you're great.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：有时这是让他们跑，因为你会说，“莱尼，你很棒。

Please go solve this problem.

请去解决这个问题。

Call me when you have a problem." If you have people that are in that upper quadrant of like they understand the problem, they have the level of experience to solve it, it's maybe not 100% important.

有问题时给我打电话。”如果你的人处于上象限，他们了解问题，他们有解决问题的经验，那么这可能不是 100% 重要。

Maybe it is.

也许是的。

That kind of thing.

那种事。

Then, there's the coach in the middle, which is like, "How do I help make that work better?" They have to start figuring out like, "Where is each person on your team in their expertise, and what level of input is the highest leverage for me?"

然后，中间是教练，他的意思是，“我如何帮助让这项工作变得更好？”他们必须开始弄清楚，“团队中每个人的专业知识处于什么位置，什么水平的投入对我来说是最高的影响力？”

Fareed Mosavat: I actually think of it as start thinking in terms of being lazy, "What's the least amount of work I could do to make this thing as good as possible?" versus, "How do I do as much work as possible to make sure it's great?" So it's like looking in terms of ROI.

Fareed Mosavat：我实际上认为这是开始从懒惰的角度思考，“为了让这件事尽可能好，我可以做的最少工作量是多少？”与“我如何做尽可能多的工作以确保它很棒？”所以这就像关注投资回报率。

The other is just hiring, bringing on great people you trust, making sure you're staffed appropriately, and there's just a second bit.

另一个就是招聘，引进你信任的优秀人才，确保你配备适当的人员，还有第二点。

I think one of the bigger mistakes that new ICs make on teams, that they still treat problems the same way they did as ICs, which normally, when you run a pod, basically, your job is, "How do I deliver the most value with the resources I have?"

我认为新 IC 在团队中犯下的更大错误之一是，他们仍然以与 IC 相同的方式处理问题，通常，当你运行一个 Pod 时，基本上，你的工作是，“我如何利用我拥有的资源提供最大的价值？”

Fareed Mosavat: When you're a leader, it's now your job to propose, "What are the resources we need to have the most impact on this problem?" I think I personally have messed this up a bunch of times where at the end of the core, I'll be like, "Yeah, but we only had four engineers, and this is what we could do." I'm like, "That wasn't what we asked you to do.

Fareed Mosavat：当你是领导者时，你现在的工作就是提出“我们需要哪些资源才能对这个问题产生最大的影响？”我想我个人已经把这个搞砸了很多次，在核心结束时，我会说，“是的，但我们只有四名工程师，这就是我们能做的。”我说：“那不是我们要求你做的。

We asked you to solve this problem.

我们要求您解决这个问题。

So adding four more people was what you needed or you needed the marketing team to do X, Y, and Z." You need to go out and do that work now.

因此，您需要再增加四个人，或者您需要营销团队来完成 X、Y 和 Z。”你现在需要出去做这项工作。

It is not just your job to get what you can get done with the resources in front of you.

利用你面前的资源完成你能完成的事情不仅仅是你的工作。

It's your job to marshal resources both inside your org and across your organization.

您的工作是整理组织内部和整个组织的资源。

I think that's another big area that's related to the trust bit because, again, it's this habit of, "Oh, I got here by doing everything myself." You have to start realizing that your job is to convince other people to do work too.

我认为这是与信任相关的另一个重要领域，因为这又是一种习惯，“哦，我自己做所有事情才来到这里。”你必须开始意识到你的工作就是说服其他人也去做工作。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

So, going back to the canyon.

于是，又回到了峡谷。

So the first piece was essentially over-focusing on just being too good at the thing you're already doing versus going broader, is that right?

因此，第一部分本质上是过度关注于在你已经在做的事情上做得太好，而不是更广泛，对吗？

Fareed Mosavat: Mm-hmm.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：嗯嗯。

Yeah.

是的。

So it's like, "Hey, how do I maximize my output?

所以这就像是，“嘿，我如何最大化我的输出？

I can do this myself faster than I can explain it to someone else, so I'll just do it," and then finding that you're blocking your team because you're in the middle of every single decision, finding that you're totally overworked, and finding that people aren't learning or growing because those opportunities have been taken from them.

我自己做这件事的速度比我向别人解释的速度要快，所以我就这样做，”然后发现你阻碍了你的团队，因为你在每一个决策中，发现你完全工作过度，发现人们没有学习或成长，因为这些机会被剥夺了。

So what do you do to break that?

那么你要做什么来打破这个呢？

You have to just slowly start to give up, trust, do that.

你必须慢慢开始放弃、相信、去做。

So I think that's the one bit is that death spiral of what's getting stuff done.

所以我认为这就是完成工作的死亡螺旋。

Lenny: No, no. You can curse all you want.

莱尼：不，不。你可以随心所欲地咒骂。

That's all good.

这一切都很好。

Fareed Mosavat: Okay.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：好的。

Great.

伟大的。

Oh, you've just...

哦，你刚刚...

Well, be careful with "all you want."

好吧，要小心“你想要的一切”。

Lenny: Nobody has cursed yet on this podcast, and it's all allowed.

莱尼：还没有人在这个播客上咒骂过，这都是允许的。

Lenny: It's the internet.

莱尼：这是互联网。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Fareed Mosavat: Don't worry.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：别担心。

I think the other is what I call the four types of product work, and I think this is not always right at the manager stage.

我认为另一个就是我所说的四类产品工作，我认为这在经理阶段并不总是正确的。

But for every great product leader, you go from being an expert in some type of product work, and I'll describe what those are, to now owning a portfolio of work across a bunch of different dimensions.

但对于每一位伟大的产品领导者来说，你都会从某种类型的产品工作的专家（我将描述这些是什么），到现在拥有跨多个不同维度的工作组合。

So the way I think about product work, and Casey Winters and I worked on this framework together, a lot of it comes from him.

所以我对产品工作的思考方式，以及我和 Casey Winters 一起开发这个框架的方式，很多都来自于他。

So I don't want to oversay it, but it's all part of our product strategy program at Reforge is first, feature work, adding new features, product experiences, et cetera into a product in order to drive engagement with your existing customer base and solve a wider range of problems.

所以我不想过分强调，但这是我们 Reforge 产品战略计划的一部分，首先是功能工作，在产品中添加新功能、产品体验等，以推动与现有客户群的互动并解决更广泛的问题。

Fareed Mosavat: The second is growth work.

Fareed Mosavat：第二个是成长工作。

"How do I help my customers or a broader range of customers connect with the experiences we already have, and drive acceleration and either top-line growth, or modernization, or whatever the most important metrics are.

“我如何帮助我的客户或更广泛的客户与我们已有的体验建立联系，并推动加速和顶线增长、现代化或任何最重要的指标。

I think you've had many guests on to talk about growth type work.

我想有很多嘉宾都在谈论成长型工作。

The third is related to growth, but I think is slightly different, which is what we call product market fit expansion.

第三个是和增长有关的，但是我觉得略有不同，也就是我们所说的产品市场契合扩张。

So it's not exactly feature work, which is like, "Hey, now that I use your product more, I have this thing I need in order to keep using it because I'm a power seller," those kinds of things.

所以这不完全是功能工作，就像，“嘿，现在我更多地使用你的产品，我有这个东西我需要继续使用它，因为我是一个超级卖家，”诸如此类的事情。

But instead, we want to attract a whole new sub-segments of markets to the product by adding something.

但相反，我们希望通过添加一些东西来吸引全新的细分市场。

Fareed Mosavat: There are two forms of product market fit expansion.

Fareed Mosavat：产品市场契合扩张有两种形式。

There's either taking the same product and finding a new audience.

要么采用相同的产品并寻找新的受众。

Things like internationalization or vertical like, "I'm going to sell the same product to a different vertical because we're a verticalized product." The other is selling a different product to the same audience.

国际化或垂直领域之类的事情，“我将把相同的产品销售给不同的垂直领域，因为我们是垂直化产品。”另一种是向相同的受众销售不同的产品。

This is what bundling strategies basically look like.

这就是捆绑策略的基本样子。

Right?

对吗？

So adding new marketing tools to a marketing suite, et cetera that attract a different kind of customer and that either drive upsell or drive new audiences to come to that.

因此，在营销套件中添加新的营销工具等等，以吸引不同类型的客户，并推动追加销售或吸引新受众。

Fareed Mosavat: So that's the third kind of product work, and then there's the fourth that is always forgotten by a lot of PMs which is scaling work.

Fareed Mosavat：这是第三种产品工作，还有第四种产品工作，它总是被很多产品经理忘记，那就是扩展工作。

So what is the stuff we're doing that is because we are growing, there's new product work we need to do?

那么，我们正在做的事情是因为我们在成长，我们需要做新的产品工作？

Most people think of this as technical scaling, but I actually put things like trust, and safety, and other kinds of what we call user scaling problems in this as well.

大多数人认为这是技术扩展，但实际上我也将信任、安全以及其他类型的用户扩展问题也纳入其中。

There are a lot of problems that come up at Airbnb just because instead of having 10 hosts, you have 10,000 hosts.

Airbnb 会出现很多问题，因为您的房东不再是 10 名，而是 10,000 名。

Right?

对吗？

There are a lot of problems at Twitter and Facebook that are well puzzle-sized that are a result of their scale, and I think that's a chunk of work that I put in the same category as technical scaling, which is like, "How do we make sure the product continues to work for the people who are using it?"

Twitter 和 Facebook 存在很多由于其规模而难以解决的问题，我认为这是我将其与技术扩展归为同一类别的大量工作，就像“我们如何确保产品继续为使用它的人服务？”

Fareed Mosavat: So the challenge of the four kinds of product work.

Fareed Mosavat：所以四种产品工作的挑战。

"Okay.

“好吧。

Great.

伟大的。

We have a framework.

我们有一个框架。

How is that useful, Fareed?" It's not that useful.

这有什么用处，法里德？” 没那么有用。

It is to know what kind you're doing, but I think as you go up the stack of product leadership, you are going from being probably an expert in one of these, so for me, growth, to needing to think about all these other ones, and you've probably never done them before.

就是要知道你在做什么，但我认为，当你在产品领导层中晋升时，你可能会从成为其中一个方面的专家（对我来说，成长），到需要考虑所有其他方面，而你以前可能从未做过这些事情。

Right?

对吗？

Maybe you've done two, but how do you lead across a bunch of different things, and how do you make sure not to be over-focused on the one that you care the most about?

也许您已经做了两件事，但是您如何领导一堆不同的事情，以及如何确保不会过度关注您最关心的事情？

Fareed Mosavat: We've all seen this.

Fareed Mosavat：我们都看到了这一点。

Right?

对吗？

It's like growth leader takes over, and everything is a growth problem.

这就好像增长领导者接管了一切，一切都是增长问题。

Everything is an experiment.

一切都是一个实验。

Everything should be measured.

一切都应该衡量。

That's not necessarily true for some of these other kinds of work, and so how do you start to lead, and grow, and build a portfolio across those?

对于其他一些类型的工作来说，情况不一定如此，那么您如何开始领导、发展并建立跨这些工作的投资组合呢？

I think that's where some of the stuff we talked about before, deep curiosity, looking across, asking a lot of questions, getting to a foundational understanding of what's important there, et cetera is really important.

我认为这就是我们之前讨论过的一些东西，深刻的好奇心，放眼世界，提出很多问题，对重要的事情有一个基本的了解等等，这些都是非常重要的。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So part of this is learning new types of product work.

因此，其中一部分就是学习新类型的产品工作。

So we're talking about trying to move from IC to manager and the things that get in the way, and so is the advice there just start to learn and understand...

所以我们正在谈论尝试从 IC 转向经理以及阻碍的事情，因此那里的建议刚刚开始学习和理解......

Maybe, say, you're doing feature work.

也许，比如说，你正在做专题工作。

You're just building a dashboard for your users.

您只是为您的用户构建一个仪表板。

Is your advice there like start thinking about how growth works and understand the growth strategy of the company so that people give you this opportunity of, "Okay.

您的建议是开始思考增长如何运作并了解公司的增长战略，以便人们给您这个机会，“好吧。

Let's put Fareed on maybe a couple other things here because he already understands a little bit more about growth?"

让我们让法里德在这里做一些其他的事情吧，因为他已经对增长有了更多的了解？”

Fareed Mosavat: Yeah.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：是的。

I think there's a framework thing, and then there's like, "What practical advice?" So from a framework perspective, I think it's important to ask the question, "For each of the things that I am responsible for, what category does this fall into?

我认为有一个框架，然后就是“什么实用建议？”因此，从框架的角度来看，我认为提出这个问题很重要：“对于我负责的每件事，它属于什么类别？

What's important about it?

这有什么重要的呢？

What are the right ways to think about building that, given that it is different than what I've built before?" So, some of this, you can do within an org.

鉴于它与我之前构建的不同，思考构建它的正确方法是什么？”因此，其中一些工作可以在组织内完成。

If you're working on core product stuff, you probably have an adoption problem on one of your products, and there's growth work associated with driving usage of that thing.

如果您正在开发核心产品，那么您的其中一款产品可能会遇到采用问题，并且需要进行与推动该产品的使用相关的增长工作。

Fareed Mosavat: So I think there's a piece at which even within a certain sub-segment that this can be valuable.

Fareed Mosavat：所以我认为，即使在某个细分市场中，也有一件作品是有价值的。

You could be working on enterprise, which looks a lot like a lot of scaling work, right, and a lot of feature work, "Get me the right administrative dashboards and these kinds of things," but also, maybe you have a problem that's a growth problem.

您可能正在从事企业工作，这看起来很像大量的扩展工作，对吧，还有很多功能工作，“给我提供正确的管理仪表板和诸如此类的事情”，但是，也许您遇到了一个增长问题。

"How do I drive adoption?

“我如何推动采用？

How do I actually drive usage?

我如何真正提高使用率？

How do I make sure that our new enterprise customers are activated and retained?"

如何确保激活并保留我们的新企业客户？”

Fareed Mosavat: So I think at scale, any product leadership work has some pieces of these different kinds, and I think building a mental model for, "What are the other things we need to do?

Fareed Mosavat：所以我认为从规模上来说，任何产品领导力工作都有这些不同类型的部分，我认为建立一个心理模型，“我们还需要做哪些其他事情？

What's the right portfolio allocation across these different types of product work, and do I have enough of a baseline understanding of the different ways to evaluate and think about those and what the goals are in order to drive leadership across work I might not be able to do myself very well?" I am not a good technical PM despite having an engineering background.

在这些不同类型的产品工作中，正确的投资组合分配是什么？我对评估和思考这些工作的不同方法有足够的基本了解吗？为了推动我自己可能无法做好的工作中的领导力，我的目标是什么？”尽管我有工程背景，但我不是一个好的技术 PM。

It's been too long, but I hope that I can lead technical scaling, technical debt restructure on my team or at least understand whether it's important to do or not.

时间已经太长了，但我希望我能够领导团队的技术扩展、技术债务重组，或者至少了解这样做是否重要。

Lenny: So if you think about this concept of getting through this canyon broadly, it boils down to more scope.

莱尼：所以如果你从广义上考虑穿越这个峡谷的概念，它可以归结为更大的范围。

Maybe that's the way to think about it.

也许这就是思考这个问题的方式。

It's like more scope of product work that you work on, being better at different types of work, scaling yourself so that other people can do work on your behalf or within your umbrella, and the point you made about not being satisfied with the resources you have and in helping people understand, "Here's what we could do if we had this many resources," and making the case for that feels like that's the overview.

这就像你从事的产品工作范围更大，在不同类型的工作上做得更好，扩展自己，以便其他人可以代表你或在你的范围内工作，以及你提出的关于对你拥有的资源不满意的观点，并帮助人们理解，“如果我们有这么多资源，我们可以做这些”，并为此提供理由，感觉这就是概述。

Is that how you think about it?

你是这么想的吗？

Fareed Mosavat: Yeah.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：是的。

I think that's exactly right, and the last one is really important because now, you have moved to owning the impact.

我认为这是完全正确的，最后一个非常重要，因为现在，你已经开始拥有影响力。

As a leader, you now own the business outcome, the impact, the delivery, not some sub-problem or known answer.

作为领导者，您现在负责业务成果、影响、交付，而不是某些子问题或已知答案。

You have to define the solutions.

您必须定义解决方案。

You have to talk about how many people you need to do them, and you need to figure out what do you need from the rest of the organization to do that.

你必须谈论你需要多少人来完成这些任务，并且你需要弄清楚你需要从组织的其他成员那里得到什么来完成这些任务。

So, yeah.

所以，是的。

I think those are the three big buckets of things that I see trip people up.

我认为这些是我看到的让人们困惑的三大问题。

Lenny: Awesome, and just add plus one to that last point.

Lenny：太棒了，只需在最后一点上加一即可。

Just like a lot of PMs end up being victims of the resources they get and like, "Oh, how could I have possibly had this impact with the resources you gave me?" versus, "How do I avoid that and empower myself to help people understand, 'Here's what I need to do this thing that you want me to do.

就像很多产品经理最终成为他们所获得的资源的受害者一样，“哦，我怎么可能用你给我的资源产生这种影响呢？”与“我如何避免这种情况并赋予自己力量帮助人们理解，‘这就是我需要做的事情来完成你希望我做的事情。

If you think this is important, here's what we need,' and put it on other people's plate?" It doesn't mean you'll get it, but it's important to put that up front.

如果你认为这很重要，这就是我们需要的，’并将其放在其他人的盘子上？”这并不意味着你会得到它，但将其放在前面很重要。

Fareed Mosavat: Yeah, and that goes from a "would be nice" and makes you a better...

Fareed Mosavat：是的，这来自于“那就太好了”，让你成为一个更好的......

more junior or even senior PM makes you a more effective one.

更多的初级甚至高级 PM 会让你成为一个更有效率的人。

It's extra credit.

这是额外的学分。

At the leadership level, it's baseline.

在领导层，这是底线。

The baseline is, "Okay.

底线是：“好吧。

I believe this is the outcome we need to get to by this time, and this is what it's going to take.

我相信这就是我们此时需要达到的结果，这就是我们将要采取的结果。

Here are the trade-offs.

以下是权衡。

Here's what I need.

这就是我需要的。

Here's what I can get you if I can't do that." The reason I drum this one home is I feel like this is the mistake I have made now multiple times in my career, and I can't...

如果我做不到的话，这就是我可以给你的。”我之所以把这个鼓回家，是因为我觉得这是我在职业生涯中多次犯下的错误，而且我不能……

At this point, I'm embarrassed to have seen it happen over and over again because you just get caught up in like, "Okay.

在这一点上，我很尴尬地看到它一次又一次地发生，因为你只是陷入这样的境地，“好吧。

Here's the team I have.

这是我的团队。

I've got to build a roadmap.

我必须制定一个路线图。

I've got to make sure everybody's got work to do," and you say focused on feeding that beast, and you forget to ask, "Is this even the right group to solve this?" Maybe you need a smaller team even, maybe you need a bigger team, or maybe you need different people.

我必须确保每个人都有工作要做，”你说专注于喂养那头野兽，但你忘了问，“这是解决这个问题的合适团队吗？”也许你甚至需要一个更小的团队，也许你需要一个更大的团队，或者也许你需要不同的人。

I think often, you find yourself victim of the circumstances instead of owning the situation.

我认为，你经常发现自己是环境的受害者，而不是拥有环境。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

When did you realize this was something you should be doing?

你什么时候意识到这是你应该做的事情？

Fareed Mosavat: I've learned different versions of this lesson now multiple times.

Fareed Mosavat：我已经多次学习了本课程的不同版本。

I learned it at Instacart.

我是在 Instacart 上学到的。

I had a very small team, and we've got a lot done.

我的团队很小，但我们完成了很多工作。

But honestly, I think I failed to make the case that we should grow it faster and only...

但老实说，我认为我未能证明我们应该更快地发展它，而且只是......

It was only when someone was like, "We should add more people." I was like, "Great.

只是当有人说“我们应该增加更多人”时。我当时想，“太棒了。

Yeah.

是的。

Let's do that." I don't think I was hurt by that, but I think it was a, "Oh, you have permission.

我们就这么做吧。”我不认为我因此而受到伤害，但我认为这是一个，“哦，你得到了许可。

You should have asked," kind of thing.

你应该问一下，”之类的事情。

I think at Slack, the lesson I learned was about cross-functional.

我认为在 Slack，我学到的教训是关于跨职能的。

I think we did a good job of making the case for why we needed new teams or add more things to drive more impact, but I still took a very product approach to solving activation and monetization expansion type problems.

我认为我们很好地解释了为什么我们需要新的团队或添加更多的东西来产生更大的影响，但我仍然采取了非常产品的方法来解决激活和货币化扩展类型的问题。

Fareed Mosavat: What I think is I look at what could have moved the needle more and what it could have made me a more successful leader at that company.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：我想的是，我会着眼于什么可以让事情变得更加顺利，以及什么可以让我成为该公司更成功的领导者。

It would've been partnering more closely with marketing, for instance, to figure out how we could be working on things together, helping drive their roadmap, and vice versa.

例如，它将与营销部门更紧密地合作，找出我们如何共同努力，帮助推动他们的路线图，反之亦然。

Same with sales.

与销售相同。

Same with the data org.

与数据组织相同。

Same with finance.

金融也一样。

Those kinds of things where I don't think I was driving enough of the high-level outcome I owned, which is driving growth in the self-service business across the other parts of the company that needed to do that.

在这些事情上，我认为我没有充分推动我所拥有的高水平成果，而这些成果正在推动公司其他需要这样做的部门的自助服务业务的增长。

I was a product leader, so I did product work, and I...

我是产品负责人，所以我做产品工作，而且我......

Lesson learned.

吸取教训。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Thanks for sharing that.

感谢您分享这一点。

So we've been talking a lot about the regular path, and getting better and accelerating your path as a product leader, and staying on this track.

因此，我们一直在谈论常规路径，以及如何变得更好并加速您作为产品领导者的道路，并保持在这条轨道上。

There's also this alternative track that I know you're passionate about, and Reforge just become a beacon, it feels like, of folks that are moving away from working at one company to working at many companies and scaling their impact.

我知道您也热衷于另一种选择，而 Reforge 似乎成为人们从在一家公司工作转向在多家公司工作并扩大其影响力的人们的灯塔。

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what you've seen there.

我很想听听您对在那里所见所闻的看法。

There's this large trend of just senior people becoming advisors, writing things, newsletters, for example.

现在的大趋势是，只有高级人才成为顾问，撰写文章、新闻通讯等。

I'm curious what you think is happening there and how you think about that.

我很好奇你认为那里正在发生什么以及你对此有何看法。

Fareed Mosavat: It's interesting.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：这很有趣。

The whys are hard to pin down, but it's definitely happening.

原因很难确定，但它确实正在发生。

I think some of it is maybe COVID-induced, some of it is remote work driving these trends, and some of it is just like there are a lot more leaders who are a lot more in demand.

我认为其中一些可能是由新冠病毒引起的，一些是远程工作推动了这些趋势，还有一些就像有更多的领导者需要更多的东西一样。

So, just to recap, a trend that I think we are seeing and that has been really interesting is a trend of senior leaders, people with meaningful operating experience, first, diversifying their impact maybe while they're still at a full-time role.

因此，回顾一下，我认为我们正在看到的一个非常有趣的趋势是高级领导者的趋势，即具有有意义的运营经验的人，首先，也许在他们仍担任全职职位时就使他们的影响力多样化。

Someone like yourself, Lenny, maybe was full-time at Airbnb or a similar company and said, "Hey, I'd like to do some advising, some angel investing, some speaking.

像你这样的人，莱尼，可能是 Airbnb 或类似公司的全职员工，他说：“嘿，我想做一些建议，一些天使投资，一些演讲。

Maybe I'll start writing a newsletter on the side," and then moving to this new category that I don't feel like really existed.

也许我会开始写一份时事通讯，”然后转向这个我觉得并不真正存在的新类别。

Maybe it did in certain pockets of executive leadership around tech and startups, but really seeing it in product management of a shift towards, "The best use of my time and my career is to work across a portfolio of problems that a variety of different companies."

也许在科技和初创公司的某些高管领导层中确实如此，但在产品管理中确实看到了这一转变，“对我的时间和职业生涯的最佳利用就是解决各种不同公司面临的一系列问题。”

Fareed Mosavat: So we are seeing a larger percentage of our executive network.

Fareed Mosavat：所以我们看到我们的高管网络中所占的比例更大。

It's still small, but working on things like newsletters, podcasts, those and the like at the edge of the content creator side, but also, full-time advisors, fractional heads of growth, fractional heads of product one day a week, et cetera.

它仍然很小，但致力于新闻通讯、播客等内容创作者边缘的事情，而且还包括全职顾问、增长部分负责人、每周一天的产品部分负责人等等。

Long-term advisory relationships, running workshops.

长期咨询关系，举办研讨会。

These kinds of things that are more like a la carte.

这些东西更像是点菜。

I think they love it because of the flexibility that it creates for them.

我认为他们喜欢它是因为它为他们创造了灵活性。

They love it because of the high upside and non-linearity of possibility of results now instead of having equity in one company for four years of 100% of my time.

他们喜欢它，因为现在结果的可能性具有很高的上升空间和非线性，而不是用我 100% 的时间在一家公司持有四年的股权。

It's a portfolio approach to not just the time and energy, but also the upside and opportunities that are there as well as the fact that they're just so in demand.

这是一种投资组合方法，不仅要投入时间和精力，还要考虑其中的优势和机会，以及它们的需求如此之大的事实。

Fareed Mosavat: For senior leaders who have been in meaningful seats at well-known companies, you're getting hit up by recruiters all day long, and the decision, "What do I want to spend the next four or five, six years of my life on if it's just one thing?" is a very difficult one.

法里德·莫萨瓦特（Fareed Mosavat）：对于在知名公司担任重要职位的高级领导者来说，你整天都会受到招聘人员的骚扰，并做出这样的决定：“如果我只做一件事，我想在生命中接下来的四、五年、六年里度过什么？”是一件非常困难的事。

So what we're finding is people seeing, "Hey, you don't need me full-time.

所以我们发现人们会看到，“嘿，你不需要我全职工作。

What you need is me here a day a week to help your up and coming leaders be awesome." We're just seeing more and more of that in the industry, and it's been a really interesting trend to observe.

你们需要的是我每周在这里帮助你们的后起之秀领导者变得出色。”我们在行业中看到了越来越多的这种情况，这是一个非常有趣的趋势。

Of our executives and residents, I would say most now are exploring this kind of advisory, fractional, or otherwise portfolio-based approach to their futures.

我想说，在我们的高管和居民中，大多数人现在都在探索这种咨询、部分或其他基于投资组合的方法来实现他们的未来。

Whereas most of them came from full-time roles beforehand.

而他们中的大多数人之前都是全职工作。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

A program at Reforge is designed for that.

Reforge 的一个项目就是为此而设计的。

The idea there is, "You don't know what you're going to do next?

这个想法是，“你不知道下一步要做什么？

Come teach a class at Reforge to help some folks out, and then use that as the time to explore what you're going to do next." Right?

来 Reforge 教一堂课来帮助一些人，然后利用这段时间探索你下一步要做什么。”对吧？

Fareed Mosavat: Yeah.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：是的。

Yeah, it is, and the hypothesis...

是的，确实如此，而且假设...

I was one of the first EIR, so I started as an EIR at the company, and then ended up joining full-time as an executive.

我是第一批 EIR 之一，所以我一开始是公司的 EIR，后来成为全职高管。

The hypothesis was, "Hey, let's give people six months to a year so that they don't just hop from one really high-stress, really difficult job into the next one.

假设是，“嘿，让我们给人们六个月到一年的时间，这样他们就不会从一份压力很大、非常困难的工作跳到下一份工作。

We also want great operators teaching and meeting our programs.

我们还需要优秀的操作员来教授和满足我们的计划。

How do we build a win-win situation?" So what we did was we created the Executive in Residence program as a way to help top operators have a transition point, but I think the hypothesis was that most of them would take on the next VP product role, or CPO role, or CMO type role, and what we're finding is that more and more of them are using that space and time.

我们如何建立双赢的局面？”因此，我们所做的是创建常驻高管计划，作为帮助顶级运营商实现过渡点的一种方式，但我认为假设是他们中的大多数人将担任下一个 VP 产品角色、CPO 角色或 CMO 类型的角色，我们发现越来越多的人正在利用这些空间和时间。

Fareed Mosavat: They are building up their understanding of where they're experts and what their real TEDx value is, and then finding ways to do that across a variety of different companies and organizations versus just the single one, one, because they want to try before they buy, so to speak, in terms of of like even if you do end up somewhere full-time, it's nice to be able to really work with them and get to know them because at the executive level in particular, it's a really high level of commitment, and you have a lot of opportunities, so you want to be really careful about it.

Fareed Mosavat：他们正在加深对自己的专家身份和 TEDx 真正价值的理解，然后在各种不同的公司和组织中找到实现这一点的方法，而不是只在一家公司和组织中实现这一目标，因为他们想在购买之前先尝试一下，可以这么说，即使你最终在某个地方全职工作，能够真正与他们合作并了解他们也是很好的，因为特别是在高管层面，这是一种非常高水平的承诺，而且你有很多机会，所以你要非常小心。

But also, two, because it may not be the best use of your energy.

但还有两个，因为这可能不是你能量的最佳利用方式。

When you have a lot of frameworks and you have a lot of broad understanding, you have a lot of examples, your value to the ecosystem is often by helping lots of companies be successful, not just one.

当你有很多框架并且有很多广泛的理解时，你有很多例子，你对生态系统的价值通常是帮助很多公司取得成功，而不仅仅是一家公司。

I suspect that's how you feel about what you're doing as well.

我怀疑你对自己正在做的事情也有这样的感受。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

When I started down this path of experimenting with a newsletter back in the day, I called it Project Avoid Getting a Real Job, and what I was trying to do is figure out, "Can I make a living doing this thing even though I don't know if there's any way to make money writing a thing?" My wife is always like, "There's no money in writing.

当我开始尝试时事通讯时，我把它称为“避免找到真正的工作项目”，而我想做的是弄清楚，“即使我不知道写东西是否有办法赚钱，我可以靠做这件事谋生吗？”我的妻子总是说：“写作没有钱。

What are you doing?

你在做什么？

I thought you wanted to start a company, that you wanted to do some advising."

我以为你想创办一家公司，想提供一些建议。”

Fareed Mosavat: Yeah.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：是的。

Well, let me talk about why I think the generalization there's no money in writing is true, but I think it's true because it's...

好吧，让我谈谈为什么我认为写文没钱的概括是正确的，但我认为这是正确的，因为它是......

In general, maybe not, but what's happening, I think, is people are figuring out, "What is my specific knowledge," just to tie the knots back to the thing we started at the beginning, "that because I've taken so many reps at this is actually not easily replaceable in a focused area?" So modernization or building zero-to-one paid channels as a marketer, or whatever it is.

一般来说，也许不是，但我认为，正在发生的事情是人们正在弄清楚，“我的具体知识是什么”，只是为了把结带回我们一开始就开始的事情，“因为我在这方面做了这么多次，实际上在一个重点领域不容易被替换？”因此，作为营销人员进行现代化或建立零到一的付费渠道，或者其他什么。

Just narrow enough that I know I'm one of the five best in the world at or I can make the case that I'm one of the five best in the world at it.

只要范围足够小，我就知道我是世界上最好的五个人之一，或者我可以证明我是世界上最好的五个人之一。

You as a company probably can't hire that person because you're too early, don't have enough money, don't have enough clout, et cetera, and that I have generalized enough in my mind that I can actually be really effective in a small amount of time.

作为一家公司，你可能无法雇用那个人，因为你太早了，没有足够的钱，没有足够的影响力，等等，而且我已经在头脑中进行了足够的概括，我实际上可以在很短的时间内真正有效。

Fareed Mosavat: So what works for you, I don't know a lot about the mechanics of your newsletter, but it's not just writing.

Fareed Mosavat：所以什么对你有用，我不太了解你的时事通讯的机制，但这不仅仅是写作。

You're writing about a very specific set of topics that you have unique experience in that has harnessed a very focused community, and I think we're seeing this across a bunch of different things that there's a lot of sub-expertise.

您正在撰写一组非常具体的主题，您在这些主题上拥有独特的经验，并且利用了一个非常专注的社区，我认为我们在许多不同的事物中看到了这一点，其中有很多子专业知识。

No one can be an expert at company.

没有人可以成为公司的专家。

Some people claim to be, but when you get down to it, I feel like an expert on bottoms-up SaaS activation strategy is like, "I can speak pretty confidently about that.

有些人声称是，但当你认真思考时，我觉得自下而上的 SaaS 激活策略专家会说，“我可以非常自信地谈论这一点。

Somebody has a problem in that space, I can usually at an hour accelerate their learning pretty dramatically." I think as we're finding what these things are and people are getting smarter about what they're looking for, I think it opened up this space where you can be the best in the world at a relatively narrow topic and make a real meaningful living out of it.

有人在那个领域遇到问题，我通常可以在一个小时内极大地加快他们的学习速度。”我认为，随着我们正在发现这些东西是什么，人们对他们正在寻找的东西变得越来越聪明，我认为它打开了这个空间，在这里你可以在一个相对狭窄的主题上成为世界上最好的，并从中过上真正有意义的生活。

Lenny: There's two thoughts I want to go into here, and then I think we should probably wrap up, but one is I do worry there's like...

莱尼：我想在这里谈两个想法，然后我想我们应该结束了，但其中一个是我确实担心……

everyone that gets to a certain point, it just exits the career track, and who's left to build things?

每个人到了一定的程度，就退出了职业轨道，剩下谁来建造东西呢？

I worry that just everyone is trying to become an influencer/creator person.

我担心每个人都想成为有影响力的人/创造者。

So what I wanted to chat about briefly is just downsides of this path in life.

所以我想简单谈谈这条人生道路的缺点。

Lenny: The other pieces is for folks listening that want to pursue this direction, what could they do to set themselves up?

Lenny：其他作品是为那些想要追求这个方向的人准备的，他们可以做些什么来让自己做好准备？

So the first piece is just like, what are the downsides?

所以第一部分就像，有什么缺点？

I'll share a few already.

我已经分享了一些。

So in this life that I lead now, I get no health insurance benefits.

所以在我现在的生活中，我没有得到任何健康保险福利。

I get no time off.

我没有时间休息。

I get no 401(k) matching.

我没有得到 401(k) 匹配。

None of that.

都不是。

I have to basically pay an absurd amount of money for health insurance and find ways to take time off, invent PTO policies for myself, and all these sorts of things.

我基本上必须为健康保险支付一大笔荒唐的钱，并找到休假的方法，为自己制定 PTO 政策，以及所有这些事情。

I've gotten used to it, but it is weird.

我已经习惯了，但还是很奇怪。

My wife is also an independent self-employed person, so we both don't have...

我老婆也是独立个体户，所以我们俩都没有...

If we have a child, we have no mat leave, pat leave.

如果我们有孩子，我们就没有垫子离开，拍子离开。

We just have to figure that out.

我们只需要弄清楚这一点。

I don't know how I would do that.

我不知道我会怎么做。

So that comes to mind for me.

所以我想到了这一点。

What else have you seen as the downside of this path?

您认为这条道路还有哪些缺点？

Fareed Mosavat: Yeah, the second is it's unclear what the longevity is.

Fareed Mosavat：是的，第二个是目前尚不清楚寿命有多长。

How far can you be removed from your full-time experience and still be valuable?

你的全职工作经历能离开多远，但仍然有价值？

This is why I actually think this is a better path than what used to happen, which is all the great operators turned into VCs, venture capitalists.

这就是为什么我实际上认为这是一条比过去更好的道路，过去所有伟大的运营商都变成了风险投资家、风险投资家。

Right?

正确的？

In there, you're pretty disconnected from the ops.

在那里，你与操作人员完全脱节。

I think this advisory type path, I'll leave the creator piece alone because I'm not as familiar with it.

我认为这种咨询类型的路径，我将保留创作者的作品，因为我对它不太熟悉。

But in the advisor path, you are still maybe spending a day a week with these companies.

但在顾问之路上，你可能仍然每周花一天时间与这些公司打交道。

You are still doing.

你还在做。

You are helping grow the next generation.

您正在帮助下一代成长。

I don't like to say generation, but next crop of up and coming leaders.

我不想说一代人，而是下一代的新领导人。

So the question mark for me is longevity.

所以我的问号是长寿。

Is it possible to build more and more amazing companies if more and more amazing operators are leaving the full-time workforce?

如果越来越多出色的经营者离开全职员工队伍，是否有可能建立越来越出色的公司？

Fareed Mosavat: I don't know, but I hope that it's better than what it's been because actually, they're building and doing, et cetera.

Fareed Mosavat：我不知道，但我希望它比以前更好，因为实际上，他们正在建设和做等等。

So I think that's the other question mark and downside, and I think we think about this as part of our ecosystem.

所以我认为这是另一个问号和缺点，我认为我们将其视为我们生态系统的一部分。

I think as long as people are doing, and generalizing, and executing, as I talked about it at the beginning, I think they can still be valuable in a meaningful way and maybe provide access to that kind of knowledge for a broader range of companies.

我认为，只要人们在做、概括和执行，正如我在一开始谈到的那样，我认为他们仍然可以以有意义的方式有价值，并且可能为更广泛的公司提供获取此类知识的机会。

The other is just like if everybody does it, then maybe it's not so unique anymore.

另一种情况是，如果每个人都这样做，那么也许它就不再那么独特了。

So I think there's a question there as well.

所以我认为那里也存在一个问题。

Lenny: The other piece is like you're constantly having to do sales and BD as an advisor like, "Who's the next company?" You're always wondering if there will be more, if they stopped.

莱尼：另一件事是，作为顾问，你必须经常进行销售和业务发展，例如“下一家公司是谁？”你总是想知道如果他们停止的话是否还会有更多。

It's a real part of it.

这是它真实的一部分。

Fareed Mosavat: That's why it has not been attractive to me personally, I will say.

Fareed Mosavat：我会说，这就是为什么它对我个人没有吸引力。

I like being focused on a singular problem for some amount of time.

我喜欢在一段时间内专注于一个单一的问题。

I do a lot of portfolio-type stuff outside.

我在外面做了很多投资组合类型的事情。

I advise casually.

我随意建议。

I do some coaching.

我做一些辅导。

Not coaching exactly, but mentorship for a couple of different up and coming product leaders.

确切地说，不是辅导，而是对几个不同的后起之秀的产品领导者的指导。

I do some angel investing, those kinds of things.

我做一些天使投资之类的事情。

I like to see what's happening around me, but I do like having an anchor.

我喜欢看看周围发生的事情，但我确实喜欢有一个锚。

That's like my main thing, and I don't like selling.

这就是我的主要工作，我不喜欢销售。

It turns out I don't, and so you have to like that, I think, to do some of this stuff.

事实证明我不喜欢，所以我想你必须喜欢这样才能做一些这样的事情。

But I think there are things our platform at Reforge will be able to do for these kinds of offers.

但我认为我们的 Reforge 平台能够为此类优惠做一些事情。

There's a long period of time to make that easier and easier.

需要很长一段时间才能让这一切变得越来越容易。

No promises, but stay tuned.

没有承诺，但请继续关注。

Lenny: Okay, okay.

莱尼：好的，好的。

So then, going back maybe as a final question.

那么，也许可以作为最后一个问题来回顾一下。

For folks that are just like, "That sounds great.

对于那些“听起来很棒”的人来说。

Maybe in the future, I want to become a full-time advisor, EIR person, writer person," what advice do you have for folks to set their career up for a place where they can get to a place where they can become full-time advisors, let's say?

也许将来，我想成为一名全职顾问、EIR 人员、作家，”您对人们有什么建议，让他们能够成为全职顾问？

Fareed Mosavat: This is this generalized step I talked about in the learn loop.

Fareed Mosavat：这是我在学习循环中谈到的通用步骤。

It becomes even more important if what you want to do is not just do your current job well, but be able to communicate why that expertise is valuable to other people, other companies across a wide range of things.

如果你想做的不仅仅是做好当前的工作，而且能够向其他人、其他公司传达为什么这种专业知识对其他人、其他公司很有价值，那么这一点就变得更加重要。

So I would say choose your opportunities carefully to be building the right balance of depth and breadth across different things.

所以我想说，仔细选择机会，在不同事物之间建立深度和广度的适当平衡。

You need to connect dots, so you do need different data points from different types of product work and different types of organizations because you don't want to be so narrow that only DDC eCommerce company that sell once-a-year purchases or whatever is the only thing you can work on.

您需要将点连接起来，因此您确实需要来自不同类型的产品工作和不同类型的组织的不同数据点，因为您不希望范围如此狭窄，以至于只有销售一年一次的采购或其他任何东西的 DDC 电子商务公司是您唯一可以做的事情。

That's just an example.

这只是一个例子。

I could have come up with a bunch of others.

我本可以想出很多其他的。

Fareed Mosavat: You need to have some breadth, right, but it's like same problem, different industry.

Fareed Mosavat：你需要有一定的广度，对吧，但这就像同一个问题，不同的行业。

It's one way to think about depth that's focused.

这是思考聚焦深度的一种方式。

Different problem, same industry is another way to think about it, but you have to come up with a unique intersection that is clearly you are in the top tier of the people who know how to do that.

不同的问题，同一行业是另一种思考方式，但你必须想出一个独特的交集，显然你是知道如何做到这一点的人中的佼佼者。

That's a little bit nuanced.

这有点微妙。

There's an art to it I think in some respects, but I think that's an important piece of the puzzle.

我认为在某些方面这是一门艺术，但我认为这是这个难题的重要组成部分。

Fareed Mosavat: Second, work at great places.

Fareed Mosavat：第二，在好地方工作。

I think this is good advice for almost all product managers in particular, but really, anybody working in tech, for better or for worse, where you worked matters to people for two reasons.

我认为这对于几乎所有产品经理来说都是一个很好的建议，但实际上，任何从事科技工作的人，无论好坏，你工作的地方对人们都很重要，原因有两个。

One, it's easier to do great work at a place that is fundamentally working.

第一，在一个基本运转良好的地方更容易做出出色的工作。

When the tide is rising, there are tons of opportunities to make meaningful, deep, awesome impact.

当潮水上涨时，就有大量机会产生有意义、深刻、令人敬畏的影响。

The second is what you talked about.

第二个就是你说的情况。

You're going to be in the sales business eventually, and it's a lot easier to sell experience at places people have heard of than places nobody has heard of.

你最终将从事销售业务，在人们听说过的地方销售经验比在没人听说过的地方销售经验要容易得多。

Unfortunately, that's I think a big piece of this puzzle as well.

不幸的是，我认为这也是这个难题的重要组成部分。

I don't have to spend a lot of time talking about what Slack is.

我不必花很多时间谈论 Slack 是什么。

You probably don't have to spend a lot of time talking about what Airbnb is.

您可能不需要花很多时间谈论 Airbnb 是什么。

I think that helps, and it is a meaningful piece of the puzzle.

我认为这很有帮助，而且是拼图中有意义的一块。

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

Fareed, I feel like anybody that listen to this episode is going to be a better product manager.

Fareed，我觉得任何听过这集的人都会成为更好的产品经理。

I'm very confident of that, and I'm really appreciative.

我对此非常有信心，也非常感激。

Lenny: I'm sure of it.

莱尼：我确信这一点。

So, just to close, where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more, and how can listeners be useful to you?

那么，最后，如果人们想联系、了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您，以及听众如何对您有用？

Fareed Mosavat: You can find me on Twitter almost most days, F-A-R-3-3-D.

Fareed Mosavat：几乎大多数时候你都可以在 Twitter 上找到我，F-A-R-3-3-D。

That's been my handle since I was a young man.

从我年轻的时候起，这就是我的把柄。

Fareed Mosavat: So check me out there.

Fareed Mosavat：所以看看我。

It's just threes instead at Es, right?

在 Es 就只有三分，对吧？

That's probably my social network of choice and best place to communicate or hear what I'm thinking about or what I'm doing.

这可能是我选择的社交网络，也是交流或听到我在想什么或在做什么的最佳场所。

Obviously, I do a ton of work at Reforge.

显然，我在 Reforge 做了很多工作。

On our events, I toast a bunch of different things, do a lot of stuff.

在我们的活动中，我干了很多不同的事情，做了很多事情。

If you're interested in these kinds of topics, please, I don't want to make this a sales pitch, but we have a lot of programs that are dedicated to deep dives into the problems that we've talked about here.

如果您对此类主题感兴趣，请，我不想将其作为推销，但我们有很多项目致力于深入探讨我们在这里讨论的问题。

I'm dedicating this next chapter of my career to helping a wider range of product leaders be great at their jobs, and that's what we do for a living.

我将在职业生涯的下一个篇章中致力于帮助更广泛的产品领导者出色地完成工作，而这正是我们的谋生之道。

I hope that we can help folks there.

我希望我们可以帮助那里的人们。

Fareed Mosavat: As to what people can help me with, I don't know.

Fareed Mosavat：至于人们可以帮助我什么，我不知道。

I'm always looking for people working on interesting stuff or with interesting, unique problems.

我一直在寻找从事有趣的事情或解决有趣、独特的问题的人。

If you're a founder working on something interesting and you're looking for an advisor, practical advisor, not for me, but we have a wide range of network experts that I'd be happy to connect folks with.

如果你是一位正在从事一些有趣的事情的创始人，并且你正在寻找一位顾问，实用的顾问，不适合我，但我们有广泛的网络专家，我很乐意与人们联系。

If you're a product manager on a team that's looking to figure out how to break through on certain problems, reach out.

如果您是团队中的产品经理，并且正在寻求解决某些问题的方法，请与我们联系。

Maybe we can help with Reforge or maybe I can help individually.

也许我们可以在 Reforge 方面提供帮助，或者我可以单独提供帮助。

Lenny: Thanks for being here, Fareed.

莱尼：谢谢你来到这里，法里德。

Fareed Mosavat: Yeah.

法里德·莫萨瓦特：是的。

Cheers.

干杯。

Thanks for having me, Lenny.

谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

I think what you're doing is wonderful and making a big difference for PMs everywhere, so thank you.

我认为你们所做的事情非常棒，并且为世界各地的产品经理带来了巨大的改变，所以谢谢你们。

Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。