'The ultimate guide to AEO: How to get ChatGPT to recommend your product | Ethan Smith (Graphite)'
Lenny Rachitsky: There's this term everyone's hearing about, AEO.
Lenny Rachitsky：每个人都听说过这个术语，AEO。
Ethan Smith: Answer Engine Optimization is how do I show up in LLMs as an answer?
Ethan Smith：答案引擎优化是我如何在法学硕士中作为答案出现？
Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like such a big deal to win at AEO.
Lenny Rachitsky：赢得 AEO 感觉是件大事。
Ethan Smith: In order to win something like what's the best website builder?
伊森·史密斯：为了赢得什么是最好的网站建设者之类的东西？
At Google, they would win if their blue link showed up first.
在谷歌，如果他们的蓝色链接首先出现，他们就会获胜。
Ethan Smith: But that's not the case in the LLM, because the LLM is summarizing many citations, and so you need to get mentioned as many times as possible.
Ethan Smith：但LLM的情况并非如此，因为LLM会总结很多引文，所以你需要尽可能多地被提及。
Lenny Rachitsky: ChatGPT is driving more traffic to my newsletter than Twitter.
Lenny Rachitsky：ChatGPT 为我的时事通讯带来的流量比 Twitter 还要多。
Ethan Smith: You can get mentioned by a citation tomorrow and start showing up immediately.
伊森·史密斯：明天你就会被引用并立即开始出现。
You can have a Reddit thread, you can have a YouTube video.
你可以有一个 Reddit 帖子，你可以有一个 YouTube 视频。
Ethan Smith: You can be mentioned on a blog.
伊森·史密斯：你可以在博客上被提及。
So early-stage companies can win, they can win quickly.
所以早期公司可以获胜，而且可以快速获胜。
Lenny Rachitsky: Are the leads that these answer engines are driving to companies actually valuable?
Lenny Rachitsky：这些答案引擎为公司带来的线索真的有价值吗？
Ethan Smith: Significantly more valuable.
伊森·史密斯：更有价值。
Webflow saw a 6X conversion rate difference between LLM traffic and Google Search traffic.
Webflow 发现 LLM 流量和 Google 搜索流量之间的转化率相差 6 倍。
Lenny Rachitsky: A lot of people are seeing this as everything is different.
Lenny Rachitsky：很多人都看到了这一点，因为一切都不同了。
Nothing we've done before is going to work.
我们之前所做的一切都行不通。
We have to rethink everything.
我们必须重新思考一切。
Ethan Smith: There's significant misinformation on AEO.
Ethan Smith：关于 AEO 存在严重的错误信息。
There's news articles about how Google Search is going to die because there's a new thing.
有新闻报道说谷歌搜索将如何因为新事物的出现而消亡。
Ethan Smith: Google's slice of the pie stays the same.
伊森·史密斯：谷歌的份额保持不变。
The pie gets bigger.
馅饼越做越大。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Ethan Smith.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天我的客人是伊森·史密斯。
Ethan is the CEO of Graphite and my go-to expert for all things SEO.
Ethan 是 Graphite 的首席执行官，也是我所有 SEO 方面的首选专家。
SEO is going through a major transition right now.
SEO 目前正在经历重大转变。
Everyone used to go to Google anytime they had a question, or were looking for a product or doing research.
过去，每个人遇到问题、寻找产品或进行研究时都会访问 Google。
These days, a lot of people are moving to ChatGPT and Claude, and Gemini and Perplexity to get answers to their questions, and this will only be accelerating over time.
如今，很多人转向 ChatGPT 和 Claude、Gemini 和 Perplexity 来获取问题的答案，而且随着时间的推移，这种情况只会加速。
Lenny Rachitsky: And even Google is changing the search experience in a pretty radical way with AI Overviews at the top, and their newly introduced AI Mode, which is basically their own version of ChatGPT.
Lenny Rachitsky：甚至谷歌也在以一种相当激进的方式改变搜索体验，人工智能概述位于顶部，他们新推出的人工智能模式，基本上是他们自己的 ChatGPT 版本。
This means that the world of SEO is going through a big change, including the rise of AEO, which stands for Answer Engine Optimization.
这意味着SEO世界正在经历一场巨大的变革，其中包括AEO（答案引擎优化）的兴起。
Basically, SEO for ChatGPT, getting your product to show up in the answers that people get.
基本上，ChatGPT 的 SEO，让你的产品出现在人们得到的答案中。
Lenny Rachitsky: Ethan has been at the forefront of this new skill and channel.
Lenny Rachitsky：Ethan 一直处于这项新技能和渠道的前沿。
And in this conversation, he shares everything that he's learned about how to get your product to show up more often inside of the answers that people get.
在这次对话中，他分享了他所学到的关于如何让你的产品更频繁地出现在人们得到的答案中的所有知识。
The advice that Ethan shares in this conversation is incredibly tactical and worth a lot of money.
伊森在这次谈话中分享的建议非常具有策略性，而且价值不菲。
So please slurp it up and use it for your own products.
因此，请吸食它并将其用于您自己的产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube, it helps tremendously.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它，这会很有帮助。
And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of 15 incredible products, including Lovable, Replit, Bolt, n8n, Linear, Superhuman, Descript, Wispr Flow, Gamma, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, ChatPRD and Mobbin.
如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的 15 种令人难以置信的产品，包括 Lovable、Replit、Bolt、n8n、Linear、Super human、Descript、Wispr Flow、Gamma、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、ChatPRD 和 Mobbin。
Lenny Rachitsky: Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click product pass.
Lenny Rachitsky：请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 并单击产品通行证。
With that, I bring you Ethan Smith.
接下来，我为您带来伊森·史密斯。
This episode is brought to you by Orkes, the company behind Open Source Conductor.
本集由 Open Source Conductor 背后的公司 Orkes 为您带来。
The orchestration platform powering modern enterprise apps and agentic workflows.
为现代企业应用程序和代理工作流程提供支持的编排平台。
Legacy automation tools can't keep pace.
传统的自动化工具无法跟上步伐。
Lenny Rachitsky: Siloed, low-code platforms, outdated process management and disconnected API tooling falls short in today's event-driven, AI-powered agentic landscape, Orkes changes this.
Lenny Rachitsky：孤立的低代码平台、过时的流程管理和断开连接的 API 工具在当今事件驱动、人工智能驱动的代理环境中表现不佳，Orkes 改变了这一点。
With Orkes Conductor, you gain an agentic orchestration layer that seamlessly connects humans, AI agents, APIs, microservices, and data pipelines in real time at enterprise scale.
借助 Orkes Conductor，您可以获得一个代理编排层，可以在企业规模上实时无缝连接人类、AI 代理、API、微服务和数据管道。
Lenny Rachitsky: Visual and code-first development, built-in compliance, observability and rock-solid reliability ensure workflows evolve dynamically with your needs.
Lenny Rachitsky：视觉和代码优先开发、内置合规性、可观察性和坚如磐石的可靠性确保工作流程根据您的需求动态发展。
It's not just about automating tasks, it's orchestrating autonomous agents in complex workflows to deliver smarter outcomes faster.
它不仅仅是自动化任务，而是在复杂的工作流程中编排自主代理，以更快地交付更智能的结果。
Whether modernizing legacy systems or scaling next-gen, AI-driven apps, Orkes accelerates your journey from idea to production.
无论是对遗留系统进行现代化改造还是扩展下一代人工智能驱动的应用程序，Orkes 都能加速您从创意到生产的旅程。
Lenny Rachitsky: Learn more and start building at Orkes.io/Lenny.
Lenny Rachitsky：在 Orkes.io/Lenny 上了解更多信息并开始构建。
That's O-R-K-E-S.I-O/Lenny.
那是 O-R-K-E-S.I-O/Lenny。
My podcast guest and I love talking about craft and taste, and agency and product market fit.
我和我的播客嘉宾喜欢谈论工艺和品味，以及代理和产品市场契合度。
You know what we don't love talking about?
你知道我们不喜欢谈论什么吗？
SOC 2.
SOC 2。
That's where Vanta comes in.
这就是万塔登场的地方。
Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way, with industry-leading AI, automation and continuous monitoring.
Vanta 借助行业领先的人工智能、自动化和持续监控，帮助各种规模的公司快速实现合规并保持这种状态。
Lenny Rachitsky: Whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC 2 or ISO 27001, or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable.
Lenny Rachitsky：无论您是解决第一个 SOC 2 或 ISO 27001 问题的初创公司，还是管理供应商风险的企业，Vanta 的信任管理平台都可以使其更快、更轻松且更具可扩展性。
Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so that you can win bigger deals sooner.
Vanta 还可以帮助您以五倍的速度完成安全调查问卷，以便您可以更快地赢得更大的交易。
The result?
结果呢？
Lenny Rachitsky: According to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slashed over $500,000 a year and are three times more productive.
Lenny Rachitsky：根据 IDC 最近的一项研究，Vanta 客户每年节省超过 500,000 美元，并且生产力提高了三倍。
Establishing trust isn't optional, Vanta makes it automatic.
建立信任不是可选的，Vanta 让它自动发生。
Get $1,000 off at Vanta.com/Lenny.
在 Vanta.com/Lenny 上享受 1,000 美元折扣。
Ethan, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
伊森，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Welcome back to the podcast.
欢迎回到播客。
Lenny Rachitsky: We did a podcast episode just over two and a half years ago.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们在两年半前制作了一集播客。
I think of it as the definitive guide on how to win at SEO.
我认为它是如何赢得 SEO 的权威指南。
People have been referencing it ever since.
从那时起人们就一直引用它。
I'm really proud of what we did there, but things have changed.
我对我们在那里所做的事情感到非常自豪，但情况已经发生了变化。
Lenny Rachitsky: Things are changing in the world of SEO.
Lenny Rachitsky：SEO 领域的情况正在发生变化。
And so I'm excited to talk to you again about how to be successful in this new-emerging world where AI is changing how SEO works, the rise of AEO and GEO.
因此，我很高兴再次与您讨论如何在这个新兴世界中取得成功，人工智能正在改变 SEO 的工作方式，以及 AEO 和 GEO 的兴起。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let me start with just this question.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我从这个问题开始。
How long have you been working on SEO at this point?
您现在从事 SEO 工作多久了？
And has anything come close to being this significant in changing the skill of SEO?
还有什么比改变 SEO 技能更重要的事情吗？
Ethan Smith: Yes.
伊桑·史密斯：是的。
So I got started in SEO in 2007, so it's been 18 years.
我从2007年开始接触SEO，到现在已经18年了。
Actually, the largest change when I got started in SEO, I got started in programmatic SEO and commerce SEO, like NexTag and Shopping.com and PriceGrabber.
实际上，当我开始 SEO 时最大的变化是，我开始进行程序化 SEO 和商业 SEO，例如 NexTag、Shopping.com 和 PriceGrabber。
And that was when you could do mass, auto-generated landing pages.
那时你就可以制作大量自动生成的登陆页面。
Ethan Smith: And that was probably the biggest shift, which is Google introduced a bunch of algorithms, Panda and similar things, to prevent you from doing spam.
伊森·史密斯：这可能是最大的转变，谷歌引入了一系列算法、Panda 和类似的东西，以防止你发送垃圾邮件。
So essentially, you went from the SEO being spam to not spam.
所以本质上，你从 SEO 是垃圾邮件变成了非垃圾邮件。
That was probably the biggest change, and then this is probably the second-biggest change.
这可能是最大的变化，然后这可能是第二大变化。
Ethan Smith: I think that the main thing here is it is related to search, but it's a summarization of search and there's new inputs.
Ethan Smith：我认为这里最主要的是它与搜索有关，但它是搜索的总结，并且有新的输入。
So it's probably the second-biggest change.
所以这可能是第二大变化。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, that is really interesting, because I think a lot of people are seeing this as everything is different.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这真的很有趣，因为我认为很多人都看到了这一点，因为一切都不同了。
Nothing we've done before is going to work.
我们之前所做的一切都行不通。
Lenny Rachitsky: We have to rethink everything.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们必须重新思考一切。
You're saying this is actually the second-biggest change, and just like Google's update back in the day was actually even more significant?
你是说这实际上是第二大变化，就像谷歌当年的更新实际上更重要一样？
Lenny Rachitsky: Very cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常酷。
Okay, let's set a little context for folks.
好的，让我们为人们设置一些背景。
Let's define some terms.
让我们定义一些术语。
There's this term everyone's hearing about.
大家都听说过这个词。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's actually two, AEO and GEO.
Lenny Rachitsky：实际上有两个，AEO 和 GEO。
What do they stand for?
它们代表什么？
Are they different?
它们有什么不同吗？
What are they referring to specifically?
他们具体指的是什么？
Ethan Smith: They, I think, are the same.
伊森·史密斯：我认为它们是相同的。
Ultimately, the definition of a word is whatever a group of people agree is the definition of a word.
最终，单词的定义是一群人同意的单词的定义。
So I think we'll see what people decide is the definition of the word.
所以我想我们会看看人们如何决定这个词的定义。
I'll put forward my definition.
我将提出我的定义。
So AEO and GEO are essentially trying to describe the same thing, which is how do I show up in LLMs as an answer?
因此，AEO 和 GEO 本质上试图描述同一件事，即我如何在 LLM 中作为答案出现？
Ethan Smith: And I personally prefer Answer Engine Optimization versus Generative Engine Optimization, because generative, you can generate images and videos and things other than an answer.
Ethan Smith：与生成引擎优化相比，我个人更喜欢答案引擎优化，因为生成引擎优化可以生成图像、视频以及答案以外的其他内容。
Whereas answer is more narrowly defined, so my personal preference is we're talking about optimizing LLMs.
鉴于答案的定义更为狭窄，所以我个人的偏好是我们正在讨论优化法学硕士。
Ethan Smith: So an answer is more narrow of a definition than generative, but ultimately, it's whatever we decide is the name and the definition is what it will be.
伊森·史密斯（Ethan Smith）：因此，答案的定义比生成的更狭窄，但最终，我们决定的是名称，定义就是它将是什么。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Answer Engine Optimization sounds a lot cleaner to me if you had to pick one.
如果您必须选择一个，答案引擎优化对我来说听起来要干净得多。
So it's good to know they're the same thing.
所以很高兴知道它们是同一件事。
Some people just prefer the latter one for some reason.
有些人出于某种原因更喜欢后者。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting because recently, I don't know if I told you this, but I was looking at my referral traffic.
Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣，因为最近，我不知道我是否告诉过你这一点，但我正在查看我的推荐流量。
And I found that ChatGPT is driving more traffic to my newsletter than Twitter, which I did not see coming.
我发现 ChatGPT 为我的时事通讯带来的流量比 Twitter 还要多，这是我没有预料到的。
Lenny Rachitsky: So somehow it's already happening.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以不知何故它已经发生了。
I'm excited to learn just how to lean into that potentially and optimize it further.
我很高兴了解如何挖掘这一潜力并进一步优化它。
Ethan Smith: And when did you see the spike?
伊森·史密斯：你什么时候看到峰值的？
Did you see when it started growing dramatically?
你看到它什么时候开始急剧增长了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Unfortunately, the dashboard I have doesn't give me great peripheral traffic optimization.
Lenny Rachitsky：不幸的是，我的仪表板并没有给我带来很好的外围流量优化。
When do you think I probably saw it?
你认为我大概是什么时候看到的？
Ethan Smith: Companies that we work with started in January and it started, one, because of more adoption, but two is because the answers became a bit more clickable.
伊森·史密斯（Ethan Smith）：与我们合作的公司从一月份就开始了，一是因为更多的采用，二是因为答案变得更容易点击。
Ethan Smith: You have maps, you have shopping carousels, you have clickable cards.
伊森·史密斯：你有地图，你有购物旋转木马，你有可点击的卡片。
So I think the clickability of the answer is increased, and then the adoption increased and that was around January.
所以我认为答案的可点击性增加了，然后采用率增加了，那是在一月份左右。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
I want to come back to this question of, "Is this good that ChatGPT is sucking all my content and giving people answers, and then sending me some percentage of that?" But let's not get into that yet.
我想回到这个问题，“ChatGPT 吸收我所有的内容并为人们提供答案，然后向我发送其中的一部分，这很好吗？”但我们暂且不谈这个。
I want to talk about just what kind of impact you can have on having your stuff show up in ChatGPT.
我想谈谈您可以对让您的内容出现在 ChatGPT 中产生什么样的影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I had the head of ChatGPT, Nick Turley, on the podcast recently.
Lenny Rachitsky：最近 ChatGPT 的负责人 Nick Turley 出现在播客上。
I asked him, "What do you think of all this stuff, AEO, GEO?" He's like, "Don't worry about any of that.
我问他：“你觉得 AEO、GEO 这些东西怎么样？”他说：“别担心这些。
Just write awesome stuff, great quality content.
只写精彩的东西，高质量的内容。
It'll figure it out.
它会弄清楚的。
It'll find the best stuff." I imagine you very much disagree.
它会找到最好的东西。”我想你非常不同意。
Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine you have seen real impact getting your stuff proactively into these answer engines.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想您已经看到了将您的内容主动纳入这些答案引擎的真正影响。
Talk about just the kind of impact you've seen and just your reaction to that?
谈谈您所看到的影响以及您对此的反应？
Ethan Smith: Yeah.
伊桑·史密斯：是的。
I agree and disagree, but the way that I think about it is anything can be optimized.
我同意也同意，但我认为任何事情都可以优化。
You just need to understand the underlying systems and the rules of the game, and if you do that, then you can optimize anything.
你只需要了解底层系统和游戏规则，如果你这样做了，那么你就可以优化任何东西。
You can optimize algorithms, you can optimize people, anything could be optimized.
你可以优化算法，你可以优化人员，任何东西都可以优化。
Ethan Smith: What I think he probably meant by that, he probably meant two things.
伊森·史密斯：我认为他的意思可能是两件事。
One is, "Please don't spam my product." And two is, "If you do, I will see it and I will stop you from doing that." So it's not a long-term, robust strategy to create spam, just like it wasn't a long-term, robust strategy to create spam on Google.
一是“请不要向我的产品发送垃圾邮件。”第二个是，“如果你这样做，我会看到它，我会阻止你这样做。”因此，这不是一个长期、稳健的制造垃圾邮件的策略，就像在 Google 上制造垃圾邮件也不是一个长期、稳健的策略一样。
Ethan Smith: Eventually, Google was going to say, "Huge shopping comparison sites are making 100 million auto-generated search pages and I don't like it, and I'm going to get rid of the whole category." So same thing with ChatGPT, anything can be optimized, but if you're spamming it, they'll see that.
伊森·史密斯：最终，谷歌会说，“巨大的购物比较网站正在制作一亿个自动生成的搜索页面，我不喜欢它，我将摆脱整个类别。”因此，与 ChatGPT 一样，任何内容都可以优化，但如果您向其发送垃圾邮件，他们会看到这一点。
Ethan Smith: And they'll have a whole team looking at that and then they'll change your algorithm to prevent you from doing that.
伊森·史密斯：他们会有一个完整的团队来研究这个问题，然后他们会改变你的算法以防止你这样做。
Lenny Rachitsky: What kind of impact have you seen?
Lenny Rachitsky：您看到了什么样的影响？
You've done work with a lot of companies, we'll talk through a few examples.
您已经与很多公司合作过，我们将通过几个例子进行讨论。
Lenny Rachitsky: Maybe share one to give us context just like how much can you impact this sort of thing where you show up in, say, ChatGPT more often?
Lenny Rachitsky：也许可以分享一个来为我们提供背景信息，就像您经常出现在 ChatGPT 中那样，对此类事情的影响有多大？
Ethan Smith: You can affect it a lot.
伊森·史密斯：你可以对它产生很大的影响。
So a specific example with Webflow is we are working with Webflow on their SEO.
Webflow 的一个具体例子是我们正在与 Webflow 合作进行 SEO。
We're working on their content, and we're seeing a lot of wins on the Answer Engine Optimization side.
我们正在研究他们的内容，并且我们在答案引擎优化方面看到了很多胜利。
Ethan Smith: So the specific things that we've done there, one is just traditional SEO.
伊森史密斯：所以我们在那里所做的具体事情，其中之一就是传统的搜索引擎优化。
So make landing pages for high-search volume keywords, like best no-code website designer.
因此，为高搜索量关键字制作登陆页面，就像最好的无代码网站设计师一样。
Ethan Smith: And then for free, you'll get Answer Engine Optimization impact from that.
Ethan Smith：然后您将免费获得答案引擎优化的影响。
So that's just traditional SEO, which works very well for AEO.
这就是传统的 SEO，对于 AEO 非常有效。
Lenny Rachitsky: I was just going to say, that sounds exactly the same as regular SEO.
Lenny Rachitsky：我只是想说，这听起来与常规 SEO 完全相同。
Ethan Smith: Yeah.
伊桑·史密斯：是的。
So I would say everything that works in SEO works in AEO, but there are additional things beyond SEO that also work in AEO.
所以我想说，在 SEO 中有效的所有内容在 AEO 中都有效，但是除了 SEO 之外，还有其他一些内容也可以在 AEO 中工作。
So second thing, and the way that I think about AEO versus SEO is that the head and the tail are different.
第二件事，我对 AEO 与 SEO 的看法是，头部和尾部是不同的。
So the head is different in that in order to win something like what's the best website builder?
因此，为了赢得“什么是最好的网站建设者”之类的奖项，头脑的不同之处在于：
Ethan Smith: Even if Webflow's URL shows up number one on the citations, they're not going to win the answer because their URL showed up number one, but at Google they would win.
Ethan Smith：即使 Webflow 的 URL 在引文中显示第一，他们也不会赢得答案，因为他们的 URL 显示第一，但在 Google，他们会赢。
If their blue link showed up first they would win, but that's not the case in the LLM.
如果他们的蓝色链接首先出现，他们就会获胜，但法学硕士的情况并非如此。
Because the LLM is summarizing many citations and so you need to get mentioned as many times as possible.
因为法学硕士总结了许多引文，所以你需要尽可能多地被提及。
Ethan Smith: So usually when you ask something like, "What's the best tool for X?" The first answer will be mentioned the most in the citations, because that's very different from Google.
Ethan Smith：通常当你问“X 的最佳工具是什么？”之类的问题时。第一个答案将在引文中被提及最多，因为这与谷歌非常不同。
And so for Webflow, we work with them on YouTube videos, Vimeo videos, getting mentioned in Reddit, getting mentioned in other blogs, affiliates, stuff like that.
因此，对于 Webflow，我们与他们合作制作 YouTube 视频、Vimeo 视频、在 Reddit 中被提及、在其他博客、附属机构等中被提及。
Ethan Smith: So tried a bunch of stuff.
伊森·史密斯：所以尝试了很多东西。
Stuff that worked especially well was just straight SEO, number one.
效果特别好的东西就是直接搜索引擎优化（SEO），第一。
Number two is YouTube videos, and then the third is Reddit optimization.
第二是 YouTube 视频，第三是 Reddit 优化。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，哇。
So you're saying if you can get to number one, when you ask ChatGPT, "What's the best website builder?"
因此，当您询问 ChatGPT“最好的网站构建器是什么？”时，您会问自己是否可以排名第一。
Lenny Rachitsky: And Webflow's at the top, that doesn't actually drive them as much traffic as simply being mentioned most often across the summary?
Lenny Rachitsky：Webflow 位于顶部，这实际上并没有像摘要中最常提到的那样带来那么多流量？
Ethan Smith: Yes.
伊桑·史密斯：是的。
And part of why that's interesting is because when startups come to me and ask me for SEO help, my first response is, "Don't do it at all.
这很有趣的部分原因是，当初创公司来找我并要求我提供 SEO 帮助时，我的第一反应是，“根本不要这样做。
Spend your time on something else because you're not going to be able to grow SEO early on in search." Because you don't have enough domain authority and it takes a while to get domain authority, and only once you have domain authority can you rank.
把时间花在其他事情上，因为你无法在搜索的早期发展 SEO。”因为你没有足够的域名权限，需要一段时间才能获得域名权限，只有有了域名权限才能排名。
Ethan Smith: And so for Google, it's usually something that you do Series A, Series B or later.
伊森·史密斯：对于谷歌来说，通常是 A 轮、B 轮或更晚的事情。
You don't do it as soon as you start because can't win early on.
你不会一开始就这样做，因为无法尽早获胜。
That's not the case for Answer Engine Optimization, because you can get mentioned by a citation tomorrow and start showing up immediately.
答案引擎优化的情况并非如此，因为明天您可能会被引文提及并立即开始出现。
You can have a Reddit thread, you can have a YouTube video.
你可以有一个 Reddit 帖子，你可以有一个 YouTube 视频。
Ethan Smith: You can be mentioned on a blog, like a brand-new YC company launches, everyone's talking about them.
Ethan Smith：你可以在博客上被提及，就像一个全新的 YC 公司推出一样，每个人都在谈论它们。
They could show up in an answer tomorrow as a result of that.
因此，他们明天可能会出现在答案中。
So early-stage companies can win, they can win quickly.
所以早期公司可以获胜，而且可以快速获胜。
And they can win quickly and anyone can win quickly, by getting mentioned as many times as possible by the citations.
他们可以快速获胜，任何人都可以通过尽可能多地被引用提及而快速获胜。
So that's what's different about the head.
这就是头部的不同之处。
Ethan Smith: What's different about the tail is that the tail is larger in chat than in search.
Ethan Smith：尾巴的不同之处在于聊天中的尾巴比搜索中的尾巴更大。
So the average number of words, I think, Perplexity said this to somebody else, said that it was around 25 words, where versus Google words it's around six words.
因此，我认为 Perplexity 向其他人说过，平均字数约为 25 个字，而与 Google 字数相比，平均字数约为 6 个字。
So the tail is just much, much larger.
所以尾巴要大得多。
People are asking lots of follow-up questions.
人们提出了很多后续问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: The tail, the prompt essentially, the question you're asking?
Lenny Rachitsky：尾巴，本质上是提示，你要问的问题？
Ethan Smith: Yes.
伊桑·史密斯：是的。
Meaning that if you map out all of the questions that people ask, kind of like an SEO, long-tail keywords, if you do long-tail questions, the size of the tail is larger.
这意味着，如果你列出人们提出的所有问题，有点像搜索引擎优化，长尾关键词，如果你做长尾问题，尾巴的大小会更大。
Meaning the amount of questions that are very specific is larger, the share and the volume.
这意味着非常具体的问题数量、份额和数量都更大。
Ethan Smith: And there's probably questions that have never been asked before and questions that have never been searched before, because search can't support lots of really specific, super-specific stuff.
伊桑·史密斯：可能有一些以前从未被问过的问题和以前从未被搜索过的问题，因为搜索不能支持很多非常具体、超级具体的东西。
Whereas chat is specifically made to ask a bunch of follow-up questions and have a conversation.
而聊天是专门用来提出一系列后续问题并进行对话的。
Ethan Smith: And so there's all these questions that have never been asked or searched for before that are now being asked, and then you can win that.
伊森·史密斯：所以所有这些以前从未被问过或搜索过的问题现在都被问到了，然后你就可以赢得这个问题。
And when I got started in SEO, it was long-tail SEO where you have a page for every single keyword, which doesn't work anymore, but now the long tail is back in chat.
当我开始从事 SEO 时，它是长尾 SEO，其中每个关键字都有一个页面，这不再起作用，但现在长尾又回到了聊天中。
Ethan Smith: And if you know all those really specific questions that people are asking, you can also win that, and you can probably also win that early.
伊桑·史密斯：如果你知道人们提出的所有那些真正具体的问题，你也可以赢得这个胜利，而且你也可能尽早赢得胜利。
And I've seen examples of early-stage companies who just launched some really specific AI-enabled payment processing API thing, and they will show up.
我见过早期公司的例子，他们刚刚推出了一些非常具体的支持人工智能的支付处理API，他们将会出现。
And they'll show up because they're answering questions that's never been answered before.
他们会出现，因为他们正在回答以前从未回答过的问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Are the leads that these answer engines are driving to companies actually valuable?
Lenny Rachitsky：这些答案引擎为公司带来的线索真的有价值吗？
Are these good-quality leads for B2B SaaS especially?
这些优质潜在客户是否特别适用于 B2B SaaS？
Ethan Smith: They are significantly more valuable.
伊森·史密斯：它们的价值要高得多。
So Webflow, we saw a 6X conversion rate difference between LLM traffic and Google Search traffic.
因此，在 Webflow 中，我们看到 LLM 流量和 Google 搜索流量之间的转化率差异为 6 倍。
Ethan Smith: Six times so significantly more qualified.
伊森·史密斯（Ethan Smith）：资格明显提高了六倍。
I think that's probably for a couple of reasons.
我认为这可能有几个原因。
Probably it's because you're so primed because you're having a conversation with multiple follow-ups, and so there's so much intent that you've built.
可能是因为你已经做好了准备，因为你正在与多个跟进者进行对话，所以你已经建立了如此多的意图。
Ethan Smith: And you've probably really narrowed in on what you want, so when you're going somewhere, it's probably highly qualified.
伊森·史密斯：而且你可能已经真正缩小了你想要的范围，所以当你要去某个地方时，它可能是非常合格的。
And so we're seeing that it's just a much higher conversion rate.
所以我们看到它的转化率要高得多。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, this is so interesting, and it makes sense.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这太有趣了，而且很有道理。
People trust ChatGPT to tell them the answer, and if you are the answer, you have so much advantage.
人们相信 ChatGPT 会告诉他们答案，如果你就是答案，那么你就有很大的优势。
Like that is what people want to know, and then, "Okay.
就像人们想知道的那样，然后，“好吧。
Cool, thank you.
酷，谢谢。
I'm going to go check this out."
我要去看看这个。”
Lenny Rachitsky: This all just makes sense.
Lenny Rachitsky：这一切都是有道理的。
Going back to the three levers you shared, essentially it's the things that you see work in driving you showing up more in these answer engines, landing pages, YouTube videos and Reddit.
回到您分享的三个杠杆，本质上是您认为可以推动您更多地出现在这些答案引擎、登陆页面、YouTube 视频和 Reddit 中的因素。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Ethan Smith: The other things, so I would break it up into stuff on your site, onsite and offsite.
伊森·史密斯：其他的事情，所以我会把它分成网站上、现场和场外的内容。
So onsite would be traditional SEO.
所以现场将是传统的搜索引擎优化。
The difference would be this long tail.
区别就在于这个长尾巴。
I would also say that the difference is lots of follow-up questions about does your product do this thing?
我还想说，区别在于很多后续问题是关于你的产品是否能做到这一点？
What are the use cases, features, integrations, languages?
用例、功能、集成、语言是什么？
Ethan Smith: Tell me about your product and really specific details about that and that's on your site.
伊森·史密斯：请告诉我有关您的产品的信息以及有关该产品的具体详细信息，这些信息在您的网站上。
And then the second group would be offsite, which is show up in all the citations.
然后第二组将不在现场，这会出现在所有引文中。
Citations are comprised of video, UGC like Reddit and Quora, affiliates.
引用由视频、Reddit 和 Quora 等 UGC、附属机构组成。
Ethan Smith: Dotdash Meredith is showing up all over the place, Glamour, Good Housekeeping, it's like getting mentioned there, blogs, so it's those two groups.
伊桑·史密斯：Dotdash Meredith 出现在各个地方，《魅力》、《好管家》，就像在那里被提及、博客，所以就是这两个群体。
Lenny Rachitsky: And that all sounds very similar to SEO showing up on other people's pages.
Lenny Rachitsky：这一切听起来与出现在其他人页面上的 SEO 非常相似。
Showing links from, say, Reddit is always great.
显示来自 Reddit 等网站的链接总是很棒的。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting that Reddit is such a big deal.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，Reddit 如此重要。
What's going on there do you think?
你认为那里发生了什么事？
Ethan Smith: Okay, Reddit is one of the most interesting things.
伊森·史密斯：好的，Reddit 是最有趣的事情之一。
It's hugely cited in LLMs.
它在法学硕士中被大量引用。
And it's probably the number one thing people are asking, customers are asking me is, "How do we optimize for Reddit?" And this goes back to the head of ChatGPT's question about, "Please don't spam my product."
人们问的第一件事，客户问我的第一件事可能是，“我们如何针对 Reddit 进行优化？”这又回到了 ChatGPT 问题的核心：“请不要向我的产品发送垃圾邮件。”
Ethan Smith: And so Reddit is a community where it's real opinions from people, authentic, and it's heavily managed by the community and the community is very good at managing it.
伊森·史密斯（Ethan Smith）：Reddit 是一个社区，里面有来自人们的真实意见，是真实的，并且它受到社区的大力管理，而且社区非常擅长管理它。
And so the obvious strategy for a growth person is, "Let's make a bunch of automated spam and spam Reddit all over the place and get my product to show up everywhere."
因此，对于成长型人才来说，显而易见的策略是，“让我们在 Reddit 上制作一堆自动垃圾邮件，并让我的产品随处可见。”
Ethan Smith: That's the growth mindset, which makes sense, the hustle mindset.
伊森·史密斯：这就是成长心态，这是有道理的，就是忙碌的心态。
So what are people looking at?
那么人们在看什么呢？
They're looking at creating hundreds of fake Reddit accounts pretending to be someone that you're not.
他们正在考虑创建数百个虚假 Reddit 帐户，冒充其他人。
I have a single person, I'm going to make 100 Reddit accounts.
我有一个人，我要创建 100 个 Reddit 帐户。
I'm going to autopost comments and then like my own comments.
我将自动发布评论，然后喜欢我自己的评论。
Ethan Smith: And then build a trust score, and then shout, say everywhere that my product is the best product.
伊森·史密斯：然后建立一个信任评分，然后大声喊叫，到处说我的产品是最好的产品。
Fortunately, that doesn't work very well, but that's the obvious strategy.
幸运的是，这效果不是很好，但这是显而易见的策略。
And so we're seeing people trying to do that and then we're also seeing those accounts get banned, those comments get deleted.
因此，我们看到人们试图这样做，然后我们也看到这些帐户被禁止，这些评论被删除。
And so we're seeing people trying to spam and being unsuccessful, so that's one strategy.
所以我们看到人们试图发送垃圾邮件但没有成功，所以这是一种策略。
Ethan Smith: The other strategy is the whole purpose of Reddit is to post useful, high-quality, authentic comments from real people.
伊森·史密斯：另一个策略是 Reddit 的整体目的是发布来自真实人们的有用、高质量、真实的评论。
So at Webflow, we have a couple of people at Webflow going to comments and saying, "This is my name, this is where I work, and here's a useful piece of information." So the strategy is find a thread that is a part of a citation that you want to show up in.
因此，在 Webflow，我们有几个 Webflow 人员发表评论并说：“这是我的名字，这是我工作的地方，这是一条有用的信息。”因此，策略是找到一个线程，该线程是您想要出现的引文的一部分。
Ethan Smith: Say who you are, say where you work, and then give a useful piece of information, and that works really well.
伊森·史密斯：说出你是谁，说出你在哪里工作，然后提供一条有用的信息，这非常有效。
And that sounds simple if you're not in the growth mindset of, "I need to scale this to hundreds of comments." But you don't actually need 10,000 comments, even five could be great and that scales perfectly well.
如果你不具备“我需要将其扩展到数百条评论”的成长心态，这听起来很简单。但实际上您并不需要 10,000 条评论，即使是 5 条也可以，而且可以很好地扩展。
Ethan Smith: So the Reddit strategy is the obvious strategy, which is just to be an actual user of Reddit.
伊森·史密斯：所以 Reddit 策略是显而易见的策略，就是成为 Reddit 的实际用户。
Make an account, say who you are, say where you work, and give a useful answer.
注册一个帐户，说明您是谁，说明您在哪里工作，并给出有用的答案。
Lenny Rachitsky: We had the early-growth leader from Deel, D-E-E-L, on the podcast a while ago.
Lenny Rachitsky：不久前我们在播客上邀请了来自 Deel 的早期增长领导者 D-E-E-L。
And this is how they grew initially, before AI even came around, just going big on Reddit and answering people's questions.
这就是他们最初的成长方式，在人工智能出现之前，只是在 Reddit 上大肆宣传并回答人们的问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: And like, "Hey, happens to be Deel.
Lenny Rachitsky：就像，“嘿，恰好是迪尔。
Can I help you with this problem?" So that's interesting.
我可以帮你解决这个问题吗？”这很有趣。
It's so interesting that Reddit is what is keeping ChatGPT from being spammed with stuff.
有趣的是，Reddit 正是阻止 ChatGPT 受到垃圾邮件的原因。
It's not that ChatGPT is stopping the spam, its Reddit is just really good at that.
这并不是说 ChatGPT 正在阻止垃圾邮件，而是它的 Reddit 在这方面非常擅长。
Ethan Smith: I think that in a sense, ChatGPT is policing because ChatGPT is running a search, it's finding citations.
Ethan Smith：我认为从某种意义上说，ChatGPT 正在监管，因为 ChatGPT 正在运行搜索，它正在查找引用。
There's a search algorithm that's trying to select which citations are useful.
有一种搜索算法试图选择哪些引用是有用的。
There are people at ChatGPT who are tuning their search algorithm to select which sources they trust.
ChatGPT 的一些人正在调整他们的搜索算法以选择他们信任的来源。
Ethan Smith: I'm sure that there's a search evaluation team saying, "Do I like these citations, yes, no?
伊森·史密斯：我确信有一个搜索评估团队会说：“我喜欢这些引文吗？喜欢还是不喜欢？
Is Reddit showing up?
Reddit 出现了吗？
I want it to show up." So I think that there are actual people at ChatGPT who are intentionally configuring their algorithm to use Reddit because it's trusted.
我想让它出现。”所以我认为 ChatGPT 确实有人有意配置他们的算法来使用 Reddit，因为它是可信的。
And if it wasn't trusted, they wouldn't use it.
如果不可信，他们就不会使用它。
Ethan Smith: Same with Google.
伊森·史密斯：谷歌也是如此。
Google has specifically configured their search algorithm to rank Reddit and Twitter and Quora, because they want user-generated content.
谷歌专门配置了他们的搜索算法来对 Reddit、Twitter 和 Quora 进行排名，因为他们想要用户生成的内容。
And if it wasn't good content, then they would change the algorithm and they wouldn't rank it.
如果内容不好，他们就会改变算法，并且不会对其进行排名。
So I think that they are policing it in a sense.
所以我认为他们在某种意义上是在监管。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
And all of this is post-training, search-oriented features of these models.
所有这些都是这些模型的训练后、面向搜索的特征。
It's not data they are trained on, is that right?
他们训练的不是数据，对吗？
Ethan Smith: I would assume that so there's the core model and then there's RAG.
Ethan Smith：我认为有核心模型，然后有 RAG。
So the core model is I'm looking at common crawl on billions of web pages, and then I'm retraining the model.
所以核心模型是我正在研究数十亿网页上的常见爬行，然后我正在重新训练模型。
And if you ask something like, "What's the capital of California?" It predicts the next word, which is Sacramento.
如果你问“加利福尼亚州的首府是哪里？”之类的问题。它预测下一个单词，即 Sacramento。
And that's based on the core algorithm, which is next-word prediction.
这是基于核心算法，即下一个单词预测。
Ethan Smith: Then there's RAG and RAG basically means search, retrieval-augmented generation.
Ethan Smith：还有 RAG，RAG 基本上意味着搜索、检索增强生成。
So I'm going to do a search and then I'm going to summarize the search.
因此，我将进行搜索，然后对搜索进行总结。
There are these two different things.
有这两种不同的东西。
And so most of what I'm describing is about the RAG piece, not the core model piece.
因此，我所描述的大部分内容都是关于 RAG 部分，而不是核心模型部分。
To influence the core model is probably extremely hard and maybe you'll see the impact a year later.
影响核心模型可能非常困难，也许一年后你就会看到影响。
Ethan Smith: And it's probably something, some sort of obscure thing that nobody would want to do, like make a million pages that say, "Best product for X is brand." Which I don't think most people want to spend their time on.
伊桑·史密斯：这可能是一些没人愿意做的晦涩难懂的事情，比如制作一百万页说“X 的最佳产品是品牌”。我认为大多数人都不想花时间在这上面。
So I'm mostly focused on the RAG side, because that's the main thing that's controllable.
所以我主要关注 RAG 方面，因为这是主要的可控因素。
Ethan Smith: And I think also the LLM is probably not going to say your product if it didn't show up anywhere on the RAG.
Ethan Smith：我认为如果你的产品没有出现在 RAG 的任何地方，法学硕士也可能不会说你的产品。
So I think that's where most of the interesting stuff is from an optimization perspective.
所以我认为从优化的角度来看，这就是最有趣的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。
Yeah.
是的。
I didn't even think about this side of it when we started talking about this, but I think that's an important thing to note, is just this has nothing to do with the training data.
当我们开始谈论这个问题时，我什至没有考虑到这一点，但我认为值得注意的是，这与训练数据无关。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is post-training, once the model's live, what it can do to find recent information using RAG, web search, things like that.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是训练后，模型上线后，它可以使用 RAG、网络搜索等查找最新信息。
Okay.
好的。
Before we get into how to actually do this step-by-step, how to win at AEO.
在我们详细了解如何实际执行此操作之前，我们先来了解一下如何赢得 AEO。
Lenny Rachitsky: What are two or three things that you think are important for people to understand to be successful in this world just broadly?
Lenny Rachitsky：您认为对于人们要在这个世界上取得成功来说，哪两三件事是重要的？
Ethan Smith: First thing is just recognizing that this is related to search.
伊森·史密斯：首先要认识到这与搜索有关。
So it's LLM plus RAG, it's summarizing a set of search results usually.
所以它是LLM加RAG，它通常总结一组搜索结果。
So LLM plus RAG, number one.
所以 LLM 加上 RAG，第一。
Number two is topics.
第二是主题。
So in search, a landing page is targeting hundreds of keywords, which we talked about on the last podcast.
因此，在搜索中，着陆页会针对数百个关键字，我们在上一个播客中谈到了这一点。
Ethan Smith: So I'm not targeting one keyword like I was in 2007, I'm targeting 1,000 keywords, and each landing page needs to target that set of 1,000 keywords, and that's a topic.
Ethan Smith：所以我不再像 2007 年那样定位一个关键字，而是定位 1,000 个关键字，每个着陆页都需要定位那一组 1,000 个关键字，这就是一个主题。
Same thing is true for Answer Engine Optimization.
答案引擎优化也是如此。
Each page is targeting hundreds, thousands, maybe tens of thousands of questions.
每个页面都针对数百、数千甚至数万个问题。
Ethan Smith: And so I want to group all those questions, which then brings us into content, so how would I rank?
伊森·史密斯：所以我想对所有这些问题进行分组，然后将我们带入内容，那么我会如何排名？
How would I get my URL to rank?
我如何让我的网址排名？
Or how are other URLs being decided whether or not they rank?
或者其他 URL 是如何决定排名的？
Then answer all the questions.
然后回答所有问题。
The more of the questions that I answer, the better.
我回答的问题越多越好。
Ethan Smith: So in Google Search, if I have a landing page about website builders, the more that my page answers all of the subtopic, follow-up questions, the more likely I am to show up in Google Search.
伊森·史密斯：所以在谷歌搜索中，如果我有一个关于网站建设者的登陆页面，我的页面回答所有子主题、后续问题的越多，我就越有可能出现在谷歌搜索中。
Same with chat, the more you answer all the questions, the better.
与聊天一样，你回答所有问题越多越好。
If you don't answer a question, then you're probably not going to show up.
如果您不回答问题，那么您可能不会出现。
Ethan Smith: And if you answer a follow-up question and subtopic somebody else is not answering, you're going to be more likely to show up.
伊桑·史密斯：如果你回答了后续问题并且副主题其他人没有回答，你就会更有可能出现。
So topics, number two.
所以话题是第二个。
The third is question research, so how do I know which questions people are asking?
第三个是问题研究，那么我如何知道人们在问哪些问题呢？
And that's actually pretty hard, because in search, Google just tells you what their ads API.
这实际上相当困难，因为在搜索中，Google 只是告诉您他们的广告 API。
Ethan Smith: They say, "This is the search volume for this keyword." There's a truth set from Google and ChatGPT is not giving us that, at least not yet.
伊森·史密斯：他们说，“这是这个关键词的搜索量。” Google 给出了一个事实，但 ChatGPT 没有给我们这个信息，至少现在还没有。
Maybe when they do ads, they'll give us more access to search volume, but there's no truth set.
也许当他们做广告时，他们会让我们更多地访问搜索量，但没有事实真相。
So how do we know the questions that people are asking?
那么我们如何知道人们在问什么问题呢？
Ethan Smith: One way would just be to take all my search terms and change them into questions.
伊森·史密斯：一种方法就是将我所有的搜索词改为问题。
So website builder, you can assume that what's the best website builder is probably a question that's probably asked proportional to the search volume for that keyword, so that's one.
因此，网站构建器，您可以假设什么是最好的网站构建器可能是一个可能与该关键字的搜索量成正比的问题，所以这就是其中之一。
Ethan Smith: But then I mentioned that the tail is larger, and there's parts of the tail that don't exist in search.
伊森·史密斯：但后来我提到尾巴更大，并且尾巴的某些部分在搜索中不存在。
So how do we know what the tail looks like?
那么我们怎么知道尾巴长什么样呢？
And one strategy that you can use, is what are all the questions people are asking you on your sales calls, customer support on Reddit?
您可以使用的一种策略是，人们在销售电话、Reddit 上的客户支持中问您的所有问题是什么？
Ethan Smith: Mine all those questions that exist somewhere else.
伊森·史密斯：挖掘其他地方存在的所有这些问题。
Probably those same questions are being asked in chat, so that's another way to find questions.
聊天中可能会问同样的问题，所以这是查找问题的另一种方式。
The last is citation optimization or offsite.
最后是引文优化或异地优化。
So again, the LLM is summarizing RAG.
再次强调，LLM 正在总结 RAG。
So how do we show up with as many citations as possible?
那么我们如何才能获得尽可能多的引用呢？
Ethan Smith: And you can break up the citations into different groups, my site, video, YouTube, Vimeo, UGC, Quora, Reddit.
Ethan Smith：你可以将引文分成不同的组，我的网站、视频、YouTube、Vimeo、UGC、Quora、Reddit。
Tier-one affiliates like Dotdash, tier-two affiliates, blogs.
一级附属机构，如 Dotdash，二级附属机构、博客。
So it's breaking up all those different citations and having specific strategies for each group.
因此，它打破了所有这些不同的引用，并为每个组制定了具体的策略。
Ethan Smith: Dotdash Meredith is a large media conglomerate with Good Housekeeping, Allrecipes, Investopedia.
伊森·史密斯：Dotdash Meredith 是一家大型媒体集团，拥有 Good Housekeeping、Allrecipes、Investopedia。
It's probably the most successful SEO company of all time.
它可能是有史以来最成功的 SEO 公司。
Ethan Smith: And it's also one of the most cited, probably the most cited in LLMs as well.
Ethan Smith：它也是被引用次数最多的论文之一，可能也是法学硕士中被引用次数最多的论文。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, did not know this.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，不知道这一点。
As you talk, I think about if you go to Google, no offense, Mr. SEO, but if you go to Google these days, it's just like a bunch of unuseful stuff, just like this hyper SEO'ed content.
正如你所说，我想如果你去谷歌，没有冒犯，SEO 先生，但如果你现在去谷歌，它就像一堆无用的东西，就像这种超级 SEO 的内容一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Do you think ChatGPT will be able to avoid that fate where it's just a bunch of hyper SEO'ed content that is not what you actually want?
Lenny Rachitsky：您认为 ChatGPT 能够避免这样的命运吗？它只是一堆并非您真正想要的超级 SEO 内容？
Ethan Smith: Probably.
伊桑·史密斯：可能吧。
And what you're saying with SEO is that everyone's rewriting each other's content, nonexperts rewriting each other's content.
你所说的搜索引擎优化是每个人都在重写彼此的内容，非专家重写彼此的内容。
So I get a content-scoring tool, which then looks at all the results in Google and it says, "These are all the things that the other articles are saying.
所以我得到了一个内容评分工具，然后它会查看谷歌中的所有结果，它会说：“这些都是其他文章所说的内容。
And then this is what you haven't said yet, so here are recommendations for how to be more typical."
这就是你还没有说的，所以这里有一些关于如何变得更典型的建议。”
Ethan Smith: And then everyone rewrites each other's article.
伊森·史密斯：然后每个人都重写彼此的文章。
And then one other interesting thing is that the majority of landing pages drive no impact.
另一件有趣的事情是，大多数登陆页面没有产生任何影响。
So we did an analysis where one out of 20 landing pages drive roughly 85% of all your traffic.
因此，我们进行了一项分析，发现每 20 个着陆页中就有一个约占所有流量的 85%。
So 19 out of 20 landing pages drive little to no traffic, which means if I want to get ROI, I need to spend a small amount of money on a large number of pages.
因此，20 个登陆页面中有 19 个几乎没有流量，这意味着如果我想获得投资回报率，我需要在大量页面上花费少量资金。
Ethan Smith: And so then you get a nonexpert to say, "Rewrite this other person's article," because that's cheaper than hiring someone from The New York Times to write your article about what's the best payroll management software?
伊森·史密斯：然后你会得到一个非专家说，“重写另一个人的文章”，因为这比雇佣《纽约时报》的人来写你关于什么是最好的工资管理软件的文章便宜？
But if you knew the few things that would work, the few landing pages that would work, and you wrote them really well, then you could push all that money to that one page, which is what we try to do.
但是，如果你知道一些可行的事情，几个可行的登陆页面，并且你把它们写得非常好，那么你可以将所有的钱都投入到那个页面上，这就是我们试图做的。
Ethan Smith: But right now it's people rewriting each other's content, so Google has not solved that yet.
伊森·史密斯：但现在人们互相重写内容，所以谷歌还没有解决这个问题。
That's probably a very hard problem to solve.
这可能是一个非常难解决的问题。
Will they ever solve that?
他们会解决这个问题吗？
Probably.
大概。
Will ChatGPT ever solve that?
ChatGPT 会解决这个问题吗？
Probably.
大概。
How I would solve that would be, one concept would be information gain.
我将如何解决这个问题，一个概念是信息增益。
So did you say something that somebody else didn't say?
那你是不是说了别人没说过的话？
Two is how typical are you?
二是你有多典型？
Ethan Smith: Are you so typical that I think that you're a rewritten version of somebody else's content?
伊森·史密斯：你是不是太典型了，以至于我认为你是别人内容的重写版本？
Potentially, Google has EEAT, expertise, authority, trustworthiness, which actually I don't see having an effect unfortunately, but it could.
谷歌可能拥有 EEAT、专业知识、权威、可信度，不幸的是，实际上我认为这些不会产生影响，但它可以。
And I could say, "Well, this person's an expert, this person's a certified financial advisor, rank them higher."
我可以说，“嗯，这个人是专家，这个人是经过认证的财务顾问，给他们排名更高。”
Ethan Smith: And I'm actually not seeing that, but they could increase the weight of that.
伊森·史密斯：实际上我没有看到这一点，但他们可能会增加它的重量。
So these are all potential solutions, but I'm sure that the reason why it has not been solved yet and why everyone's rewriting each other's articles.
所以这些都是潜在的解决方案，但我确信它还没有解决的原因以及为什么每个人都在重写彼此的文章。
It's probably just hard to build an algorithm to solve that, but will they ever solve that?
建立一个算法来解决这个问题可能很困难，但是他们能解决这个问题吗？
Probably.
大概。
Lenny Rachitsky: This algorithm or heuristic you just shared is so interesting, because it's helpful for just what is good content, say, with a newsletter or a podcast?
Lenny Rachitsky：您刚刚分享的这个算法或启发式方法非常有趣，因为它对于什么是好内容（例如新闻通讯或播客）很有帮助？
Info gain, and is it typical?
信息增益，是否典型？
Lenny Rachitsky: Are you adding something new to the conversation and is this unique?
Lenny Rachitsky：您是否在对话中添加了一些新内容，这是独特的吗？
I think it's a really good strategy for just producing great newsletters and podcasts and all the content in the world.
我认为对于制作精彩的时事通讯和播客以及世界上所有的内容来说，这是一个非常好的策略。
Ethan Smith: Yes.
伊桑·史密斯：是的。
And ideally, did you do original research and do you have some domain expertise?
理想情况下，您是否进行了原创研究并且拥有一些领域专业知识？
And did you mention that in the content?
您在内容中提到过这一点吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: This is a great heuristic for just content in general, which is exactly what you want these algorithms to be looking for, so the alignment is there.
Lenny Rachitsky：对于一般内容来说，这是一个很好的启发式方法，这正是您希望这些算法寻找的内容，因此对齐就在那里。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Great Question, the all-in-one UX research platform loved by teams at Brex, Canva, Intuit and more.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Great Question 为您带来，这是一个深受 Brex、Canva、Intuit 等团队喜爱的一体化用户体验研究平台。
One of the most common things I hear from PMs and founders that I talk to is, "I know I should be speaking to customers more, but I just don't have the time or the tools." That's exactly the gap Great Question fills.
我从产品经理和创始人那里听到的最常见的话之一是，“我知道我应该更多地与客户交谈，但我只是没有时间或工具。”这正是伟大问题所填补的空白。
Lenny Rachitsky: Great Question makes it easy for anyone on your team, not just researchers, to recruit participants, run interviews, send surveys, test prototypes, and then share it all with powerful video clips.
Lenny Rachitsky：伟大的问题使团队中的任何人（而不仅仅是研究人员）都可以轻松地招募参与者、进行采访、发送调查、测试原型，然后通过强大的视频剪辑分享这一切。
It's everything you need to put your customers at the center of your product decisions.
这是您将客户置于产品决策中心所需的一切。
With a prompt as simple as, "Why did users choose us over competitors?"
提示很简单，“为什么用户选择我们而不是竞争对手？”
Lenny Rachitsky: Great Question not only reveals what your customers have already shared, but it also makes it incredibly easy to ask them in the moment for fresh insights from the right segment.
Lenny Rachitsky：伟大的问题不仅揭示了您的客户已经分享的内容，而且还使您可以非常轻松地立即向他们询问来自正确细分市场的新见解。
Picture this, your roadmap's clear, your team's aligned, you're shipping with confidence, and you're building exactly what your customers need.
想象一下，您的路线图清晰，您的团队协调一致，您充满信心地交付，并且您正在构建客户真正需要的东西。
Head to greatquestion.com/Lenny to get started.
前往greatquestion.com/Lenny 开始。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's give people an actual, actionable plan to start executing on this and winning essentially at AEO.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我们为人们提供一个实际的、可操作的计划来开始执行这一计划，并从根本上赢得 AEO。
If it's helpful to use my newsletter as an example, how would I show up more often on ChatGPT or Gemini or whatever?
如果以我的时事通讯为例有帮助的话，我如何才能更频繁地出现在 ChatGPT 或 Gemini 或其他网站上？
Or if it's a B2B SaaS company, whatever's easiest, let's just talk about how to actually do this.
或者，如果它是一家 B2B SaaS 公司，无论哪种最简单，我们都只讨论如何实际做到这一点。
Ethan Smith: First, I would figure out which questions I want to rank for.
伊森·史密斯：首先，我会弄清楚我想要对哪些问题进行排名。
How I would figure out which questions I want to rank for, I would take my search data.
我将利用我的搜索数据来确定我想要对哪些问题进行排名。
I would maybe take my paid search data, like, "What are my money terms?
我可能会获取我的付费搜索数据，例如“我的货币条件是什么？
What are my competitors' money terms?" So if I'm rippling, what is deal.com bidding all their paid search on?
我的竞争对手的金钱条件是什么？”那么，如果我在涟漪效应中，deal.com 会根据什么对所有付费搜索进行竞价？
Ethan Smith: Then I would transform those into questions.
伊森·史密斯：然后我会将这些转化为问题。
And actually you can just give those keywords to ChatGPT and say, "Make these into questions," and it does a pretty good job.
实际上，您只需将这些关键字提供给 ChatGPT 并说，“将这些变成问题”，它就会做得非常好。
So take your competitors' paid search data or mine or your own, put it in ChatGPT, get the questions.
因此，将您竞争对手的付费搜索数据、我的或您自己的付费搜索数据放入 ChatGPT 中，获取问题。
That's step one.
这是第一步。
Step two is then track them, so put them in an AEO tracker, in an answer tracker.
第二步是跟踪它们，因此将它们放入 AEO 跟踪器、答案跟踪器中。
Ethan Smith: Third thing would be who is showing up as citations?
伊森·史密斯：第三件事是谁被引用？
And then have a strategy for each of those different groups of citations.
然后针对每组不同的引文制定策略。
The third would be make your own landing pages.
第三是制作自己的登陆页面。
So what are the kinds of landing pages that are appearing?
那么出现的登陆页面有哪些类型呢？
Is it a listicle?
它是列表吗？
Is it a category page?
它是一个类别页面吗？
Is it an article, tool page?
是文章、工具页面吗？
Figure out what page type that seem to be showing up the most, and then you make your own page for that.
找出最常出现的页面类型，然后为此创建自己的页面。
Ethan Smith: How do you have your page rank?
伊森·史密斯：你的页面排名如何？
Answer all the follow-up questions.
回答所有后续问题。
So what are all the follow-up questions that someone might ask?
那么有人可能会问的所有后续问题是什么？
You could go back to your search data and look for groups and themes of your keywords that are in your SEO topic.
您可以返回搜索数据并查找 SEO 主题中的关键字组和主题。
Same thing for AEO topic.
AEO 主题也是如此。
Then on the offsite, so different strategies for each of those groups.
然后在场外，每个小组都有不同的策略。
Ethan Smith: And I would say that depending on the company, paying an affiliate to mention you, that's pretty easy if you have the money.
伊桑·史密斯：我想说，根据公司的不同，如果你有钱的话，付钱给附属机构来提及你，这很容易。
So if you want to be the best credit card, you pay Forbes and then you're the best credit card.
因此，如果您想成为最好的信用卡，那么您向《福布斯》付款，那么您就是最好的信用卡。
So that's strategy one, expensive, easy, controllable.
这就是策略一：昂贵、简单、可控。
The YouTube, Vimeo strategy is also actually pretty easy because there's no community saying, "I don't like your YouTube video."
YouTube、Vimeo 策略实际上也非常简单，因为没有社区说“我不喜欢你的 YouTube 视频”。
Ethan Smith: You make a YouTube video, you do whatever you want.
伊森·史密斯：你制作一个 YouTube 视频，你可以做任何你想做的事。
Maybe people view it, maybe they don't, but you can make a YouTube video or a Vimeo video.
也许人们会观看，也许他们不会，但您可以制作 YouTube 视频或 Vimeo 视频。
And the interesting thing with this, especially for B2B, is that YouTube, Vimeo, other video sites, the kinds of things people make videos for are food, traveling, fun, beauty.
有趣的是，特别是对于 B2B 来说，YouTube、Vimeo 和其他视频网站，人们制作视频的目的是美食、旅行、娱乐、美丽。
Ethan Smith: There's not that many videos about AI-powered payment processing APIs, as interesting as that is, but it's a great money turn.
Ethan Smith：关于人工智能支付处理 API 的视频并不多，尽管很有趣，但这是一个巨大的赚钱机会。
So if you make a video for these really specific, high-LTV, maybe nonglamorous keywords, questions, topics, that's actually a big opportunity.
因此，如果您为这些非常具体、高生命周期价值（也许是平淡无奇的关键词、问题、主题）制作视频，这实际上是一个很大的机会。
Then Reddit, so I mentioned with Webflow what we did, which is just make a Reddit account, say who you are, say where you work and give a useful answer.
然后是 Reddit，所以我在 Webflow 中提到了我们所做的事情，就是创建一个 Reddit 帐户，说明你是谁，说明你在哪里工作，然后给出有用的答案。
Ethan Smith: That one is a little bit trickier because the community might say, "I don't like your answer." So you can't guarantee that your comment is there, but it is easy, so I would do that group.
伊森·史密斯：这个有点棘手，因为社区可能会说，“我不喜欢你的答案。”所以你不能保证你的评论在那里，但这很容易，所以我会做那个小组。
Oh, and then experiment design, experiment design and seeing what works.
哦，然后是实验设计，实验设计，看看什么有效。
So SEO and AEO are both interesting in that the majority of the information and best practices are not correct.
因此，SEO 和 AEO 都很有趣，因为大多数信息和最佳实践都不正确。
Ethan Smith: And the reason why is because people don't do analysis.
伊森·史密斯：原因是人们不进行分析。
Somebody will say something and then it will get repeated, and then it becomes best practice and no one ever did an analysis.
有人会说一些话，然后它会被重复，然后它就成为最佳实践，但没有人做过分析。
So you did all the stuff that I just mentioned.
所以你做了我刚才提到的所有事情。
Do an experiment and see if it worked.
做一个实验，看看是否有效。
Maybe half the stuff I said works, maybe half it doesn't.
我说的东西也许一半有效，也许一半无效。
Do your own experiment.
做你自己的实验。
Ethan Smith: Most best practices, most blog posts are not correct.
Ethan Smith：大多数最佳实践、大多数博客文章都不正确。
So how do you set up an experiment?
那么如何进行实验呢？
You get your questions, you turn tracking on, give it a couple of weeks.
你收到问题，打开跟踪，给它几周的时间。
Make your changes, have a test group, have a control group.
做出改变，设立一个测试组，设立一个对照组。
Intervene on the test group, make your changes, see if the chart went up, see if the control group did not, and now you know your particular strategy worked.
对测试组进行干预，进行更改，看看图表是否上升，看看对照组是否没有上升，现在您知道您的特定策略有效了。
Ethan Smith: So I would definitely do experiments and I would not assume that stuff you read online is correct.
伊森·史密斯：所以我肯定会做实验，我不会认为你在网上读到的东西是正确的。
And then you need a team, so who's your team?
然后你需要一个团队，那么你的团队是谁？
Probably your team is your SEO team, or your SEO agency or your SEO consultant.
也许您的团队是您的 SEO 团队、您的 SEO 机构或您的 SEO 顾问。
Probably, hopefully they can do this stuff, and then however, what I think is hard to hire for is the offsite stuff.
也许，希望他们能做这些事情，然而，我认为很难招聘的是异地的事情。
Ethan Smith: So most SEO people are not going to be amazing at creating YouTube videos and Reddit strategy, so you might need a different person for that.
Ethan Smith：所以大多数 SEO 人员不会在创建 YouTube 视频和 Reddit 策略方面表现出色，所以你可能需要一个不同的人来做这件事。
That might be a community generalist marketing person.
那可能是一位社区通才营销人员。
So it would basically be your SEO team, "Please now do Answer Engine Optimization." And then marketing community team, "Please help me show up in more citations."
所以基本上是你的 SEO 团队，“现在请进行答案引擎优化。”然后营销社区团队，“请帮助我出现在更多引用中。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，好吧。
That is incredibly valuable.
这是非常有价值的。
Thank you for sharing all that.
感谢您分享这一切。
I imagine some of this is you're just giving away a lot of amazing advice for free here.
我想其中一些原因是您在这里免费提供了很多令人惊叹的建议。
Thank you.
谢谢。
First of all, I imagine there's a layer, there's only so far you can go on your own.
首先，我想有一层，你自己只能走这么远。
Lenny Rachitsky: And so eventually it's like, "Okay, we really need help." And that's where a team like yours comes in.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以最终就像是，“好吧，我们真的需要帮助。”这就是像您这样的团队发挥作用的地方。
Let me ask a few questions here to follow up.
让我在这里问几个问题来跟进。
One is this tracker concept.
一是跟踪器概念。
So what is this tracker, it can track how often you show up?
那么这个追踪器是什么，它可以追踪你出现的频率吗？
Say Lenny's Newsletter shows up and answers for the questions that I'm targeting?
假设 Lenny 的时事通讯出现并回答了我所针对的问题？
Ethan Smith: Yeah, so there's answer tracking, which is like keyword tracking.
伊森·史密斯：是的，所以有答案跟踪，就像关键字跟踪一样。
So keyword tracking would be best growth podcast, and you put that in a keyword tracking tool.
因此，关键字跟踪将是最好的增长播客，您可以将其放入关键字跟踪工具中。
There's 100 of them, they're all the same, and you see whether or not what you rank.
有100个，都一样，你看看你排名第几。
Maybe you rank, hopefully you rank number one.
也许你排名第一，希望你排名第一。
Now in answers it's very different, but it's related.
现在的答案非常不同，但也是相关的。
Ethan Smith: So if you ask the same question, you will have different answers each time.
伊森·史密斯：所以如果你问同样的问题，每次都会有不同的答案。
If you ask a question, there's different answers per run.
如果您提出问题，每次运行都会有不同的答案。
And so ChatGPT is basically calculating a distribution of all the potential answers it would give.
所以 ChatGPT 基本上是在计算它给出的所有潜在答案的分布。
And depending on when you ask it, it's basically like a weighted, random sample, and so you're going to get different answers.
根据你提问的时间，它基本上就像一个加权的随机样本，所以你会得到不同的答案。
Ethan Smith: You also have question variants, so you can ask different versions of the same question, and you might show up in one and you might not show up in another.
伊森·史密斯：你也有问题变体，所以你可以问同一问题的不同版本，你可能会出现在一个版本中，而你可能不会出现在另一个版本中。
Then there's different surfaces, there's Perplexity, there's Gemini, there's ChatGPT, there's Meta AI, and so these surfaces have different answers.
然后还有不同的表面，有 Perplexity、有 Gemini、有 ChatGPT、有 Meta AI，所以这些表面有不同的答案。
Ethan Smith: And so you essentially need to create a share of voice across all these different things like a distribution.
伊森·史密斯：所以你本质上需要在所有这些不同的事情上分享声音，比如发行版。
So how often am I showing up?
那么我出现的频率是多少？
What's my average rank?
我的平均排名是多少？
And that's answer tracking.
这就是答案跟踪。
So then where do you get answer tracking?
那么您从哪里获得答案跟踪呢？
And answer tracking is essentially an evolution of keyword tracking.
答案跟踪本质上是关键字跟踪的演变。
So we have a page with 60 different answer tracking tools.
所以我们有一个包含 60 种不同答案跟踪工具的页面。
Ethan Smith: But it's ultimately just like keyword tracking, it's all the same thing roughly.
伊森·史密斯：但它最终就像关键字跟踪一样，大致都是一样的。
And so pick one of the 60, we have answer tracking, we're building answer tracking.
因此，从 60 个中选择一个，我们有答案跟踪，我们正在构建答案跟踪。
There's 59 other options, probably all pretty good, probably all pretty similar, but pick one.
还有 59 个其他选项，可能都非常好，可能都非常相似，但请选择一个。
My general suggestion is pick the cheapest one that does what you need.
我的一般建议是选择最便宜的、能满足您需求的。
Ethan Smith: Just like keyword tracking, you can only, there's not a premium version of keyword tracking.
Ethan Smith：就像关键字跟踪一样，您只能，没有关键字跟踪的高级版本。
You rank number three or you don't.
你要么排名第三，要么排名第三。
So pick the keyword tracker that is the cheapest that does what you want.
因此，请选择最便宜且能满足您需求的关键字跟踪器。
Same with the answer tracking.
与答案跟踪相同。
And so then when I'm doing the experiment, put your answers in, track them, see a chart over time, see your average rank.
所以当我做实验时，把你的答案放进去，跟踪它们，查看一段时间内的图表，看看你的平均排名。
Ethan Smith: How often are you showing up and what's your average rank?
伊森·史密斯：你出现的频率是多少？你的平均排名是多少？
And then you make a change, and then hopefully you go up.
然后你做出改变，然后希望你能上升。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I love this term voice share.
我喜欢语音共享这个词。
I never heard that before, it makes sense.
我以前从未听说过，这是有道理的。
Like percentage of time you're showing up in LLMs, is there an LLM, is it just like ChatGPT?
就像您参加 LLM 的时间百分比一样，有 LLM 吗？它就像 ChatGPT 一样吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Is Google equivalent now to ChatGPT?
Lenny Rachitsky：Google 现在相当于 ChatGPT 吗？
How do you recommend people think about, say, Gemini or Claude, or Perplexity and others?
你如何建议人们思考双子座或克劳德，或困惑等？
Ethan Smith: So interestingly, there are similar, foundational algorithms across all of these.
Ethan Smith：有趣的是，所有这些都有相似的基础算法。
They're all using search, they're all using search, and they're all using LLMs, which foundational algorithms are all the same.
他们都在使用搜索，他们都在使用搜索，他们都在使用法学硕士，其基础算法都是相同的。
The results are actually pretty different.
结果实际上有很大不同。
So we're doing a study, we're seeing that Google and Bing are not that similar search engines.
所以我们正在进行一项研究，我们发现 Google 和 Bing 并不是那么相似的搜索引擎。
Ethan Smith: We're seeing that ChatGPT citations and Google Search results are actually not that similar.
Ethan Smith：我们发现 ChatGPT 引用和 Google 搜索结果实际上并不那么相似。
Perplexity is interestingly more similar to Google than ChatGPT.
有趣的是，Perplexity 与 Google 比 ChatGPT 更相似。
We did a study looking at thousands of questions and saw the citation overlap with Google Search results was around 35% for ChatGPT and Google, so not that much.
我们做了一项针对数千个问题的研究，发现 ChatGPT 和 Google 的引用与 Google 搜索结果的重叠率约为 35%，所以没有那么多。
Ethan Smith: Perplexity was around 70%, but essentially they're all similar algorithms, but with very different citations and results.
Ethan Smith：困惑度约为 70%，但本质上它们都是相似的算法，但引用和结果却截然不同。
So then look at which surfaces have the most traffic and then track those.
然后查看哪些表面的流量最多，然后跟踪这些表面。
You probably don't need to track all of them, but look across all those.
您可能不需要跟踪所有这些，但需要查看所有这些。
Ethan Smith: But you do need to look at your share of voice or the percent of time you show up across all these surfaces.
伊森·史密斯：但你确实需要看看你的声音份额或你在所有这些表面上出现的时间百分比。
You need to ask the question multiple times, and you need to ask the variance of the question to truly know how frequently you're showing up.
您需要多次询问该问题，并且需要询问问题的差异才能真正了解您出现的频率。
Lenny Rachitsky: Considering that ChatGPT, they're going to hit something like a billion weekly active users in the near future, do you need to worry about Claude and Gemini and Perplexity?
Lenny Rachitsky：考虑到 ChatGPT，他们将在不久的将来达到 10 亿周活跃用户，你需要担心 Claude 和 Gemini 以及 Perplexity 吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Is the traffic there meaningful?
Lenny Rachitsky：那里的交通有意义吗？
I know it is a lot of people, but how important is it to focus on those other LLMs?
我知道有很多人，但是专注于其他法学硕士有多重要？
Ethan Smith: Well, the way that I would answer that is I believe AOL was one of the largest search engines early on and Google was not.
伊森·史密斯：嗯，我的回答是，我相信 AOL 是早期最大的搜索引擎之一，而 Google 不是。
And so we could ask in 1999 or whatever, "Should we just focus on AOL search and Yahoo search?
因此，我们可以在 1999 年或其他时候问，“我们应该只关注 AOL 搜索和雅虎搜索吗？
Do we really need to worry about Google?" And the answer is we don't actually know.
我们真的需要担心谷歌吗？”答案是我们实际上并不知道。
Ethan Smith: It's very early, we don't know who's going to win.
伊森·史密斯：现在还很早，我们不知道谁会赢。
I do think that ChatGPT for sure is going to be large.
我确实认为 ChatGPT 肯定会很大。
Will Perplexity or Claude or these others compete with them?
困惑、克劳德或其他人会与他们竞争吗？
Probably.
大概。
Just like search, I think that there will probably be multiple winners and probably you'll need to optimize for several.
就像搜索一样，我认为可能会有多个赢家，并且您可能需要针对多个赢家进行优化。
Ethan Smith: I don't think that you'll need to optimize for 10, but there'll probably be around three or so that will win that you want to optimize for.
Ethan Smith：我认为您不需要针对 10 个进行优化，但您想要优化的可能会是大约 3 个左右。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
By the way, I want to make it clear, I love Claude.
顺便说一句，我想说清楚，我爱克劳德。
I use Claude and ChatGPT equally, roughly.
我粗略地同样使用 Claude 和 ChatGPT。
I didn't want to make it sound like ChatGPT is the only product people use.
我不想让人觉得 ChatGPT 是人们使用的唯一产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
How does this strategy change depending on the kind of company you are?
根据您所在公司的类型，该策略会如何变化？
Say you're a B2B SaaS company or a consumer product, does anything in these seven steps change significantly?
假设您是一家 B2B SaaS 公司或消费品公司，这七个步骤中的任何内容是否会发生显着变化？
Ethan Smith: Let's take B2B, for example.
Ethan Smith：我们以 B2B 为例。
The first thing is that the citations that are being mentioned are going to be quite different.
首先，所提到的引文将会有很大不同。
So citation optimization will vary quite a bit.
因此，引文优化会有很大差异。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just to clarify what you just said, what do you mean when you say citation strategy is different?
Lenny Rachitsky：为了澄清你刚才所说的，当你说引用策略不同时，你的意思是什么？
Ethan Smith: Meaning the citations that show up for B2B versus marketplaces are different kinds of citations.
Ethan Smith：这意味着 B2B 与市场中出现的引用是不同类型的引用。
So for B2B, it might be like TechRadar shows up a ton when I ask questions.
因此，对于 B2B 来说，当我提出问题时，TechRadar 可能会大量出现。
I've never read TechRadar, but for some reason it shows up all the time.
我从未读过 TechRadar，但由于某种原因它总是出现。
I'm sure it's great.
我确信这很棒。
But TechRadar is showing up a ton for B2B for whatever reason.
但无论出于何种原因，TechRadar 都在 B2B 领域大量出现。
Ethan Smith: In commerce, it's not going to be that, it's going to be Glamour and Cosmopolitan.
伊森·史密斯：在商业领域，不会是这样，而是魅力和国际化。
For marketplaces, it'll be Eater and Yelp, TripAdvisor, places like that, so the kinds of citations that show up are different.
对于市场来说，它将是 Eater 和 Yelp、TripAdvisor 之类的地方，因此显示的引用类型是不同的。
Most of the stuff that I've been talking about is specific to B2B stuff that's different for commerce.
我一直在谈论的大多数内容都是特定于 B2B 的内容，这对于商业来说是不同的。
Ethan Smith: So for most B2B questions, the answers are not clickable.
Ethan Smith：所以对于大多数 B2B 问题，答案是不可点击的。
There's nothing to click on.
没有什么可点击的。
And so if you actually want to measure the impact, you cannot just look at last-touch referral traffic.
因此，如果您确实想衡量影响，则不能只查看最后接触推荐流量。
You have to see whether or not you showed up in the answer with tracking.
您必须查看您是否出现在带有跟踪的答案中。
And then you also need to ask the user, "How did you hear about us post-conversion to actually know the impact?"
然后你还需要询问用户，“你是如何得知我们转换后的信息并真正了解影响的？”
Ethan Smith: So it's harder to track for B2B.
Ethan Smith：所以 B2B 的追踪更加困难。
Also for B2B, you're probably deciding which payroll management software to use after 50 touchpoints.
同样对于 B2B，您可能会在 50 个接触点后决定使用哪种薪资管理软件。
With a brand, it's not going to be you just search for something, you suddenly spent $100,000 on payroll management software.
有了一个品牌，你就不会只是搜索一些东西，你就会突然花 10 万美元购买工资管理软件。
So that's B2B.
这就是 B2B。
Commerce is different, so Commerce actually now has more clickable cards like you would in a Google.
Commerce 是不同的，所以 Commerce 实际上现在拥有更多可点击的卡片，就像在 Google 中一样。
Ethan Smith: So if you ask, "What's the best TV for apartments?" There are actual shoppable cards.
伊森·史密斯：如果你问“最适合公寓的电视是什么？”有实际的可购物卡。
Those shoppable cards are showing multiple sellers.
这些购物卡显示有多个卖家。
Those sellers have rich snippets.
这些卖家有丰富的片段。
Schema is important, the number of reviews are important, so it's actually quite different.
模式很重要，评论的数量也很重要，所以实际上是完全不同的。
You can look at last-touch referral traffic to get a good sense about the number of conversions that you're getting.
您可以查看最后一次接触推荐流量，以更好地了解您所获得的转化次数。
Ethan Smith: For commerce, similar with restaurants and hotels and local marketplaces, similar there.
伊森·史密斯：对于商业来说，与餐馆、酒店和当地市场类似。
And then I would say early stage is also different.
然后我想说早期阶段也是不同的。
So I mentioned earlier, early stage my recommendation is don't do SEO at all.
所以我之前提到过，早期我的建议是根本不要做 SEO。
For Answer Engine Optimization, definitely do AEO, and only do citation optimization and long tail.
对于答案引擎优化，肯定要做AEO，并且只做引文优化和长尾。
Don't do any of the mid-SEO stuff, just get cited and answer really specific questions.
不要做任何SEO中期的事情，只是被引用并回答真正具体的问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's so interesting that so much of this is just showing up as the little tag/pill in the answer, because it's obvious now that I think about it.
Lenny Rachitsky：这太有趣了，其中很多内容只是以小标签/药丸的形式出现在答案中，因为现在我想起来它很明显。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's the only way someone will get to your site from an LLM is just clicking that, "Okay, let me go read this article."
Lenny Rachitsky：这是法学硕士访问您网站的唯一方法，只需点击“好吧，让我去读这篇文章”。
Ethan Smith: Yes.
伊桑·史密斯：是的。
But what they will do is they will open a new tab, and they will type in the brand name and they'll go to Google.
但他们要做的是打开一个新标签，输入品牌名称，然后访问谷歌。
Ethan Smith: And then they'll click on your domain, and you will think that it was a branded Google Search when it wasn't.
伊森·史密斯：然后他们会点击您的域名，您会认为这是一个品牌的 Google 搜索，但事实并非如此。
Ethan Smith: Or they'll open up a new tab and they will type in your domain, and they'll go directly to your domain and you'll falsely think that it was direct traffic.
伊森·史密斯：或者他们会打开一个新选项卡，输入您的域名，然后他们会直接进入您的域名，您会错误地认为这是直接流量。
Lenny Rachitsky: Coming back to a question you raised at the beginning.
Lenny Rachitsky：回到你一开始提出的问题。
So for my newsletter, the fact that they're sucking up all this content, I don't even know how much, and sending me some percent of traffic.
因此，对于我的时事通讯，事实上他们吸收了所有这些内容，我什至不知道有多少，并向我发送了一定比例的流量。
Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have any, I don't know, just sense of is this good?
Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道，你有这样的感觉吗？
If you were running my newsletter, would you encourage all these outlets to suck up my stuff?
如果你经营我的时事通讯，你会鼓励所有这些媒体吸收我的东西吗？
And then be like, "Oh yeah, you could check it out in Lenny's Newsletter if you want"?
然后说，“哦，是的，如果你愿意的话，你可以在莱尼的时事通讯中查看它”？
Ethan Smith: Yes.
伊桑·史密斯：是的。
And I would give the same answer that Brian Balfour gave on your previous episode on this, which is that it's not your choice whether to play the game.
我会给出与布莱恩·贝尔福（Brian Balfour）在你上一集中对此问题相同的答案，即是否玩游戏不是你的选择。
You are playing the game whether you want to or not, so you might as well try to show up.
不管你愿不愿意，你都在玩游戏，所以你不妨尝试一下。
If you just say, "Don't look at any of my data," then you cannot show up and your competitors will.
如果您只是说“不要查看我的任何数据”，那么您就无法出现，而您的竞争对手则会出现。
Ethan Smith: Now, what you can do is you can say, "I don't want you to train on my data, so you can index my site, but please don't train on my data." And they have different user agents for that and different bots, so you can just say, "And we're building a Webflow app to block training but not indexation."
伊森·史密斯：现在，你可以说，“我不想让你训练我的数据，所以你可以索引我的网站，但请不要训练我的数据。”他们有不同的用户代理和不同的机器人，所以你可以说，“我们正在构建一个 Webflow 应用程序来阻止训练，但不能阻止索引。”
Ethan Smith: Or you can just put it in your robots.txt, "This training bot not allowed.
Ethan Smith：或者你可以将其放入 robots.txt 中，“不允许使用此训练机器人。
Index bot, you are allowed." So if you're concerned about that, I would suggest that, and I think probably a lot of people will do that.
索引机器人，你被允许了。”因此，如果您担心这一点，我会建议您这样做，而且我认为可能很多人都会这样做。
But saying, "You can't index my site at all," that doesn't make sense to me.
但是说“你根本无法索引我的网站”，这对我来说没有意义。
Lenny Rachitsky: Such a good point, because I don't know if I have competitors in this exact space, but basically they would show up instead and then I lose all that traffic.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的观点，因为我不知道在这个领域是否有竞争对手，但基本上他们会出现，然后我就失去了所有流量。
Lenny Rachitsky: Such a good point.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个很好的观点。
Okay.
好的。
Let me come back to the steps you shared just to see if there's something here that's worth diving into a little further.
让我回到您分享的步骤，看看这里是否有一些值得进一步深入研究的内容。
So this is essentially how to be more successful showing up in LLM responses.
因此，这本质上就是如何在法学硕士回复中更加成功。
One is figure out what questions you want to rank for.
一是弄清楚你想要对哪些问题进行排名。
Lenny Rachitsky: And you could do this by looking at what your competitors are advertising and their paid ads and things like that.
Lenny Rachitsky：你可以通过查看竞争对手的广告内容以及他们的付费广告等来做到这一点。
Just look at the terms, ask almost ChatGPT or Claude, "Turn these into questions people would ask to find these terms." Then set up a tracker to see just how you're doing today.
只要看看这些术语，问问 ChatGPT 或 Claude，“把这些变成人们会问的问题来找到这些术语。”然后设置一个跟踪器来查看您今天的表现。
How often are you showing up?
你多久出现一次？
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a million trackers, you have a link willing to check these out.
Lenny Rachitsky：有一百万个追踪者，你有一个愿意检查这些的链接。
Then you look at who is showing up today?
那你看看今天谁出现了？
Where are they being taken today?
今天他们将被带到哪里？
Use that to inform landing pages that you create to answer those questions better.
使用它来通知您创建的登陆页面，以更好地回答这些问题。
And you make it very clear that it's very important not to just answer that main question, but also follow-up questions.
您非常清楚地表明，不仅要回答主要问题，还要回答后续问题，这一点非常重要。
Then there's offsite stuff.
然后还有场外的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: So get into affiliates like Dotdash, YouTube, Reddit, Quora sounds like are the core, and then run an experiment.
Lenny Rachitsky：因此，进入 Dotdash、YouTube、Reddit、Quora 等附属机构听起来是核心，然后进行实验。
So you look at this tracker, and let me actually ask this, and the next step is just set up a team.
所以你看看这个跟踪器，让我实际问这个，下一步就是建立一个团队。
But just to come back to this step, how do you set up an experiment that isn't just like a before, after?
但回到这一步，如何设置一个不只是之前、之后的实验？
How do you do a control group situation?
你如何处理对照组的情况？
Ethan Smith: Yeah.
伊桑·史密斯：是的。
So what I would do is I would take 100 different questions, half of them I will intervene, half of them I won't.
所以我会做的是，我会回答 100 个不同的问题，其中一半我会干预，一半我不会。
Or let's say, let's take 200 questions.
或者说，让我们回答 200 个问题。
So 100 of the questions, I'm not going to do anything, so that's my control group.
在 100 个问题中，我不会做任何事情，所以这是我的对照组。
And we are seeing a fair amount of variance and answers just without doing anything at all, so you definitely want a control group.
我们在不做任何事情的情况下看到了相当多的差异和答案，所以你肯定需要一个对照组。
Ethan Smith: And also we're seeing people are using LLMs more and LLM traffic is going up.
Ethan Smith：我们还看到人们越来越多地使用法学硕士，法学硕士的流量也在增加。
So you definitely need a control group, especially in Answer Engine Optimization.
所以你肯定需要一个控制组，尤其是在答案引擎优化方面。
So control group is, "Don't touch it at all, leave it as it is." That's the control group.
所以对照组是，“根本不要碰它，保持原样。”那是对照组。
Test group would be, "I'm going to now comment on Reddit threads, so let's test that."
测试组会说，“我现在要在 Reddit 帖子上发表评论，所以让我们测试一下。”
Ethan Smith: Or I'm now going to make a YouTube, Vimeo video, or I'm now going to pay Forbes advisor to say that I'm the best credit card.
Ethan Smith：或者我现在要制作 YouTube、Vimeo 视频，或者我现在要付钱给福布斯顾问，让他们说我是最好的信用卡。
Maybe break those up into a few different buckets, track them.
也许将它们分成几个不同的桶，跟踪它们。
Have a couple of weeks before, a couple of weeks after, compare against the control group.
几周前、几周后与对照组进行比较。
Ethan Smith: And then the stuff that went up when the control group did not worked, and the stuff that didn't did not, and then reproduce it.
伊森·史密斯：然后，当对照组不起作用时，那些上升的东西，以及那些没有起作用的东西，然后重现它。
So reproducibility is very important.
所以重复性非常重要。
And my background's in academic research, and it's common to do a study that cannot be reproduced.
我的背景是学术研究，做一项无法重现的研究是很常见的。
And so for something to truly be accepted with an academian, it needs to be reproducible.
因此，要让某些东西真正被学术界所接受，它需要具有可重复性。
Ethan Smith: Meaning multiple people have done this study and reproduced that thing over and over again.
伊森·史密斯（Ethan Smith）：意思是很多人已经完成了这项研究，并一遍又一遍地重复了那件事。
And especially in SEO, it's common for something to change.
尤其是在 SEO 中，某些事情发生变化是很常见的。
And you think that it was this thing that caused it and it's actually not, and you just assume forever that that works.
你认为是这个东西造成了它，但实际上不是，你只是永远假设那是有效的。
So reproducibility is very important.
所以重复性非常重要。
Ethan Smith: Try to do that study multiple times, try to get studies from other people, and if it works 10 times, then it probably works.
伊森·史密斯：尝试多次进行这项研究，尝试从其他人那里获取研究，如果它有效 10 次，那么它可能会有效。
And this comes back to the waste problem, most work is wasted in SEO.
这又回到了浪费问题，大部分工作都浪费在了 SEO 上。
Most work is wasted in AEO, so how do you know what's not wasted?
大多数工作在 AEO 中都被浪费了，那么你怎么知道哪些工作没有被浪费呢？
You do an experiment, you don't assume that what you read online is true.
你做了一个实验，你不会假设你在网上读到的内容是真实的。
Ethan Smith: You do your own experiment, and then you reproduce it multiple times, and keep doing the stuff that works and don't do the stuff that doesn't.
伊森·史密斯：你自己做实验，然后多次重复它，继续做有效的事情，不做无效的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like such a big deal to win at AEO.
Lenny Rachitsky：赢得 AEO 感觉是件大事。
Just coming back to this idea that people are coming to ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini looking for an answer.
回到这个想法，人们来到 ChatGPT、Claude、Gemini 寻找答案。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you're that answer, I feel like that could just make or break your company.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你就是那个答案，我觉得这可能会决定你公司的成败。
It feels like even more important than SEO, just getting this right.
感觉比 SEO 更重要，只要做好这一点。
Ethan Smith: I would say that where I want to get the most conversions possible, how big is the channel?
Ethan Smith：我想说的是，如果我想获得尽可能多的转化，渠道有多大？
The channel is not as big as search.
渠道没有搜索那么大。
The search is definitely larger, but it is a substantial channel now.
搜索量肯定更大，但现在它是一个重要的渠道。
And Webflow, they get 8% of those signups from LLMs.
Webflow 的注册人数中有 8% 来自法学硕士。
Ethan Smith: It's now one of your top channels so it's large.
伊森·史密斯：它现在是你们的顶级频道之一，所以规模很大。
It's not the largest channel, it's not the number one channel.
它不是最大的渠道，也不是第一的渠道。
Paid is probably the number one channel, but it's definitely a substantially large channel and one worth optimizing for.
付费渠道可能是第一大渠道，但它绝对是一个相当大的渠道，值得优化。
Lenny Rachitsky: And as you said, probably growing over time.
Lenny Rachitsky：正如你所说，可能会随着时间的推移而增长。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Let me zoom out a little bit, and let me just ask you this.
让我把范围缩小一点，然后问你这个问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: What do you think are maybe the most surprising or underdiscussed topics when it comes to AI and SEO and AEO that we haven't already talked about?
Lenny Rachitsky：当谈到人工智能、SEO 和 AEO 时，您认为最令人惊讶或讨论不足的话题是什么？
Ethan Smith: The first thing is that there's significant misinformation on AI and on AEO, and it's pretty extreme.
Ethan Smith：首先，关于人工智能和 AEO 存在严重的错误信息，而且非常极端。
It's unusually the percent of misinformation to correct information is pretty substantial.
错误信息与正确信息的比例相当大，这是不同寻常的。
So one example is every two years there's news articles about how Google Search is going to die or it is dying because there's a new thing.
一个例子是，每两年就会有一篇新闻文章讲述谷歌搜索将如何消亡，或者它正在消亡，因为出现了一种新事物。
Ethan Smith: So that's happening right now with AI Overviews and with AEO, Google's going down, which is not true.
伊森·史密斯（Ethan Smith）：现在人工智能概述和 AEO 正在发生这种情况，谷歌正在走下坡路，但这不是事实。
Before that it was TikTok search, so everyone is using TikTok now.
之前是TikTok搜索，所以现在大家都在用TikTok。
Gen Z is using TikTok, they're never going to use SEO.
Z 世代正在使用 TikTok，他们永远不会使用 SEO。
SEO's going to be dead, and so you really need to focus on TikTok search, which is not false.
SEO 即将消亡，因此你确实需要专注于 TikTok 搜索，这不假。
It's not untrue, but it's not taking share away from Google, it's just a new surface.
这并非不真实，但它并没有夺走谷歌的份额，它只是一个新的表面。
Ethan Smith: And then before that it was Instagram, and then before that it was Facebook and it was YouTube.
伊森·史密斯：再之前是 Instagram，再之前是 Facebook，再之前是 YouTube。
And people do search and discover on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, but it doesn't take away from Google Search.
人们确实会在 Instagram、TikTok、YouTube 上进行搜索和发现，但这并不会影响 Google 搜索。
It adds on top of it.
它添加在它的上面。
These are all new channels, so Google's slice of the pie stays the same, the pie gets bigger.
这些都是新渠道，所以谷歌的份额保持不变，蛋糕变得更大。
Ethan Smith: And so misinformation about Google going down, Google is not going down.
伊森·史密斯：关于谷歌倒闭的错误信息，谷歌并没有倒闭。
Google published something recently, their VP of search explicitly said, "I looked at the traffic that we're sending to publishers, and it is not down, it's up slightly." So it is not true that Google Search is going down.
谷歌最近发布了一些内容，他们的搜索副总裁明确表示，“我查看了我们发送给发布商的流量，它没有下降，而是略有上升。”因此，谷歌搜索正在下降的说法并不属实。
Ethan Smith: And most of the news information about that is saying that it's going down, so that's the first surprising thing.
伊森·史密斯：大多数有关这方面的新闻信息都说它正在下降，所以这是第一个令人惊讶的事情。
The second surprising thing is tooling.
第二个令人惊讶的事情是工具。
And I've never seen a channel where these extremely expensive tools that essentially do commodity tasks.
我从未见过任何渠道使用这些极其昂贵的工具来完成商品任务。
So imagine if I said, "I'm going to charge you $50,000 for keyword tracking."
想象一下，如果我说：“我将向您收取 50,000 美元的关键字跟踪费用。”
Ethan Smith: You would say, "Well, of course, that's absurd.
伊森·史密斯：你可能会说：“当然，这很荒谬。
It's keyword tracking, I could write this in a day." No one would do that.
这是关键字跟踪，我一天就能写完。”没有人会这么做。
But for answer engines, it's mysterious and people don't really know how it's working.
但对于答案引擎来说，它很神秘，人们并不真正知道它是如何工作的。
Also, the slope of the growth curve is so significant, that I'm seeing people spend huge amounts of money on what are essentially keyword tracking commodities.
此外，增长曲线的斜率非常显着，以至于我看到人们在本质上是关键字跟踪商品上花费了大量资金。
Ethan Smith: So that's the second thing.
伊森·史密斯：这是第二件事。
The third thing is the growth curve of the channel.
第三件事是渠道的增长曲线。
And we did a Reforge AEO webinar a year ago, and there was excitement and then it died and there was very little excitement about it.
一年前，我们举办了一次 Reforge AEO 网络研讨会，当时人们很兴奋，但随后就消失了，几乎没有什么令人兴奋的。
This was in June, and then people didn't really care.
那是在六月，那时人们并不真正关心。
They were intrigued intellectually by it, but they didn't care because they didn't see the impact from that.
他们在智力上对此很感兴趣，但他们并不关心，因为他们没有看到它的影响。
Ethan Smith: So there was essentially very little interest between July and January, and then suddenly in January it's just skyrocketing.
伊森·史密斯：所以七月到一月之间基本上没有什么兴趣，然后在一月份突然飙升。
So it's ChatGPT launches, people are very interested, and then it's not that interesting for growth people.
所以当 ChatGPT 发布时，人们非常感兴趣，但对于成长型的人来说就没那么有趣了。
And then there's this little spike in June, and then it's like this, which is usually not what you see with a new channel.
然后在六月份出现了这个小高峰，然后就像这样，这通常不是你在新频道中看到的。
Ethan Smith: So the slope of the curve is unusually steep, and the shape of the curve is also very unusual.
伊森·史密斯：所以曲线的斜率异常陡峭，曲线的形状也很不寻常。
The last is that a lot of people do think that SEO and AEO are different and they're not different.
最后一点是，很多人确实认为SEO和AEO是不同的，但它们并没有不同。
I think probably part of that is because it sounds great to say that there's this new channel, it's completely different.
我想部分原因可能是因为这个新频道听起来很棒，它完全不同。
Ethan Smith: And I'm an expert and I have a tool to sell you, and it's totally unique and all these other tools are not relevant.
伊森·史密斯：我是一位专家，我有一个工具可以卖给你，它是完全独特的，所有其他工具都不相关。
In reality, it's actually there's quite a bit of overlap.
事实上，这确实有相当多的重叠。
There is the difference of the citation optimization.
存在引文优化的差异。
The head is different and the tail is different, but the core technology is pretty similar.
头不一样，尾不一样，但核心技术却大同小异。
So those are probably the most surprising things.
所以这些可能是最令人惊讶的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: This piece about January being the inflection point, you mentioned that it was because references started showing it more prominently.
Lenny Rachitsky：这篇关于一月是拐点的文章，你提到这是因为参考资料开始更加突出地显示它。
Is that the big change?
这就是大的改变吗？
Ethan Smith: I think it's increase of adoption of LLMs by people, so it's just actually growing more and then the clickability.
伊森·史密斯（Ethan Smith）：我认为这是人们对法学硕士的采用率的增加，所以它实际上是在增加，然后是可点击性。
And I am seeing, you are seeing now this large increase of actual clicks.
我看到，您现在看到实际点击次数大幅增加。
Ethan Smith: Probably before you got no clicks, even if you showed up an answer, so the clickability of the answer has increased.
伊森·史密斯：可能在你没有点击之前，即使你显示了答案，所以答案的可点击性增加了。
Ethan Smith: Especially for things like commerce and local and hotels, because they have these rich modules where you can click on stuff and go somewhere, which was not true before.
伊森·史密斯：特别是对于商业、本地和酒店等领域，因为它们拥有丰富的模块，您可以在其中单击内容并前往某个地方，而这在以前是不可能的。
That and I think people are just using LLMs more.
我认为人们只是更多地使用法学硕士。
Lenny Rachitsky: Ethan, let me just say, I'm learning so much from this conversation, what a fun thing.
Lenny Rachitsky：Ethan，我只想说，我从这次谈话中学到了很多东西，真是一件有趣的事情。
I could see, it's just clear how much you love this stuff, and just how nerdy and deep you get into it.
我看得出来，很明显你有多喜欢这个东西，以及你对它的喜爱程度有多深。
And it's just fun to talk to someone that's so deep and knowledgeable about all these things, so thank you for sharing all this with us.
与对所有这些事情如此深入且知识渊博的人交谈很有趣，所以感谢您与我们分享所有这些。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to go in a slightly different direction.
Lenny Rachitsky：我将走向一个稍微不同的方向。
There's this whole world of AI content, people generating content with AI, generating landing pages.
这是人工智能内容的整个世界，人们用人工智能生成内容，生成登陆页面。
Just like, "Oh my God, SEO is never going to just generate all this stuff.
就像，“天哪，SEO 永远不会产生所有这些东西。
AI is going to make all this stuff easier."
人工智能将使所有这些事情变得更容易。”
Lenny Rachitsky: You guys did a really big study on how that works, whether it's a good idea to generate content with AI.
Lenny Rachitsky：你们对它的工作原理进行了非常大的研究，研究用人工智能生成内容是否是一个好主意。
Can you just talk about what you learned from that, and how people should think about AI in generating content?
您能谈谈您从中学到了什么，以及人们在生成内容时应该如何看待人工智能吗？
Ethan Smith: Yes.
伊桑·史密斯：是的。
So I remember when ChatGPT launched and Brian Balfour posted on LinkedIn, "What do you people think that is going to happen from ChatGPT and AI?" And my immediate response is spam, so just lots and lots of spam, especially SEO spam.
所以我记得当 ChatGPT 推出时，Brian Balfour 在 LinkedIn 上发帖说：“你们认为 ChatGPT 和人工智能会发生什么？”我的第一反应是垃圾邮件，所以只有很多很多垃圾邮件，尤其是 SEO 垃圾邮件。
And then there was a whole industry around AI-generated content, and I knew immediately that it wouldn't work.
然后整个行业都围绕着人工智能生成的内容，我立刻就知道这是行不通的。
Ethan Smith: And the reason why I knew it wouldn't work, and when I say AI-generated content, I mean automated content with no human-in-the-loop.
伊森·史密斯：我知道它行不通的原因是，当我说人工智能生成的内容时，我指的是没有人参与的自动化内容。
So I think that the future of content is clearly AI-assisted.
所以我认为内容的未来显然是人工智能辅助的。
Clearly, you and I will be using AI to help us write, so it's not no AI at all, but it's not 100% generated with AI.
显然，你和我将使用人工智能来帮助我们写作，所以它根本不是没有人工智能，但它不是 100% 由人工智能生成。
I immediately knew that it wouldn't work.
我立即知道这是行不通的。
Ethan Smith: Why did I know that?
伊森·史密斯：我为什么知道这个？
I knew that because I created spam in 2007, and I knew what Google did about it and how, and I knew the exact same thing was going to happen.
我知道这一点，因为我在 2007 年创建了垃圾邮件，我知道 Google 对此做了什么以及如何做，而且我知道同样的事情将会发生。
So what I did in 2007 is I and all the other shopping comparison people scraped all each other's content, reviews, chopped it up, scraped content, 100 million search pages, snippets, and it worked really well.
所以我在 2007 年所做的是，我和所有其他购物比较人员抓取了彼此的所有内容、评论、切碎、抓取了内容、1 亿个搜索页面、片段，而且效果非常好。
Ethan Smith: And then it stopped working, and then all those companies disappeared.
伊森·史密斯：然后它就停止运作了，然后所有这些公司都消失了。
I knew that was exactly what's going to happen with AI-generated content.
我知道这正是人工智能生成的内容将会发生的情况。
And so from the beginning, I've not focused on AI-generated content.
因此，从一开始，我就没有关注人工智能生成的内容。
Many people have, but I don't know, so maybe it does work.
很多人都有，但我不知道，所以也许它确实有效。
There's lots of case studies about it working.
有很多关于它的案例研究。
Ethan Smith: So let's do the study, let's do an analysis.
伊森·史密斯：那么让我们进行研究、分析。
So we took, we looked at both Google and at ChatGPT where we took thousands of searches and thousands of questions, and we put those searches into Google Search.
因此，我们查看了 Google 和 ChatGPT，其中我们进行了数千次搜索和数千个问题，然后将这些搜索放入 Google 搜索中。
We put those questions into chat and the ChatGPT, and then we looked at the citations or the Google Search results.
我们将这些问题放入聊天室和 ChatGPT 中，然后查看引文或 Google 搜索结果。
Then we looked at an AI detector.
然后我们研究了人工智能探测器。
Ethan Smith: So we used Surfer SEO's AI detector.
Ethan Smith：所以我们使用了 Surfer SEO 的 AI 检测器。
Now, when I tell people this, they say, "Well, you can't detect AI." So then we evaluated the efficacy and the accuracy of the AI detector.
现在，当我告诉人们这一点时，他们说：“好吧，你无法检测人工智能。”然后我们评估了人工智能探测器的功效和准确性。
So we did that by generating thousands of AI-generated articles and it was very predictive.
因此，我们通过生成数千篇人工智能生成的文章来做到这一点，并且它具有很强的预测性。
And then we looked at real articles, we did that two different ways.
然后我们看真实的文章，我们用两种不同的方式来做。
Ethan Smith: One way is we write real articles, and the other is we took a random sample of 100,000 URLs from Common Crawl over the last five years.
Ethan Smith：一种方法是我们写真实的文章，另一种方法是我们在过去五年中从 Common Crawl 中随机抽取 100,000 个 URL。
And then we looked at the AI detector before ChatGPT was launched, so it necessarily was content not created by a human.
然后我们在 ChatGPT 推出之前查看了 AI 检测器，因此它必然是不是由人类创建的内容。
And then the false positive rate was around 8%, so basically the AI detector is very accurate.
然后误报率在8%左右，所以基本上AI检测器是非常准确的。
Ethan Smith: So we took that, then we ran it on the content.
伊森·史密斯：所以我们接受了它，然后在内容上运行它。
So then what we saw was around 10% to 12% of content in Google Search, and then ChatGPT or AI-generated, 90% are not.
那么我们看到的是 Google 搜索中大约 10% 到 12% 的内容，然后是 ChatGPT 或 AI 生成的内容，90% 不是。
And we ran a correlation analysis showing the exact same thing.
我们进行了相关分析，结果显示完全相同。
So we essentially did a very rigorous study showing that AI content does not work.
因此，我们本质上做了一项非常严格的研究，表明人工智能内容不起作用。
AI-assisted content edited is great.
人工智能辅助编辑的内容很棒。
Ethan Smith: We do that sometimes, other people do that, that is clearly the future of content.
伊森·史密斯：我们有时会这样做，其他人也会这样做，这显然是内容的未来。
So that does work and should work and that's good, but purely 100% AI-generated does not work.
所以这确实有效并且应该有效，这很好，但纯粹 100% 人工智能生成是行不通的。
So then the second thing that we did was we found that, this was unexpected, but we found that there's more AI-generated content on the internet than human-generated content.
所以我们做的第二件事是我们发现，这是出乎意料的，但我们发现互联网上人工智能生成的内容比人类生成的内容更多。
Ethan Smith: So back to the Common Crawl study, we looked at 100,000 different URLs over the past five years.
Ethan Smith：回到 Common Crawl 研究，我们在过去五年中查看了 100,000 个不同的 URL。
And then you can see this curve where AI-generated is now higher than human-created.
然后你可以看到这条曲线，人工智能生成的曲线现在高于人类创建的曲线。
So there's more AI-generated content on the internet than human-generated content, which is disturbing.
因此，互联网上人工智能生成的内容比人类生成的内容更多，这令人不安。
So then let's say that AI-generated content did work.
那么我们可以说人工智能生成的内容确实有效。
Ethan Smith: If AI-generated content worked, then everyone would do it.
伊森·史密斯：如果人工智能生成的内容有效，那么每个人都会这样做。
Just like in 2007, shopping comparison sites, if I can scrape my content, why would I pay anyone to write it?
就像 2007 年的购物比较网站一样，如果我可以抓取我的内容，我为什么要付钱给别人写呢？
I'll just scrape it from you and I'll chop it up.
我会把它从你身上刮下来，然后把它砍碎。
So then everyone will do that, and then it will go from most content is AI-generated to almost all of the content is AI-generated.
那么每个人都会这样做，然后就会从大多数内容都是人工智能生成的到几乎所有内容都是人工智能生成的。
Ethan Smith: Then what will happen if that works, is that Google now becomes a search engine for ChatGPT responses.
Ethan Smith：如果可行的话，Google 现在将成为 ChatGPT 响应的搜索引擎。
So if Google's a search engine for ChatGPT responses, there's no reason for Google to exist.
因此，如果 Google 是 ChatGPT 响应的搜索引擎，那么 Google 就没有存在的理由。
Just go to ChatGPT, which is the exact same thing that happened in 2007.
看看 ChatGPT 就知道了，这和 2007 年发生的事情一模一样。
Ethan Smith: Google said, "I see all these shopping comparison search engines showing up in my search results.
伊森·史密斯：谷歌说，“我看到所有这些购物比较搜索引擎都出现在我的搜索结果中。
So I'm essentially a search engine for search engines." I should be showing the TV in my results.
所以我本质上是一个搜索引擎的搜索引擎。”我应该在结果中显示电视。
I shouldn't be showing other vertical search engines, so I'm going to get rid of them and I'm just going to go straight to the product.
我不应该展示其他垂直搜索引擎，所以我将摆脱它们，直接进入产品。
Ethan Smith: The same thing will be true for ChatGPT.
Ethan Smith：对于 ChatGPT 来说也是如此。
Now for ChatGPT, let's say that ChatGPT ranks its own derivatives in its citations, so then you have this infinite loop of derivatives.
现在对于 ChatGPT，假设 ChatGPT 在其引文中对自己的衍生品进行排名，因此您就拥有了衍生品的无限循环。
So I go to ChatGPT, I say, "Generate 10 articles." I put those articles into the citations and then I say, "Summarize these citations that were derivative."
所以我去 ChatGPT，我说，“生成 10 篇文章。”我将这些文章放入引文中，然后说：“总结这些派生的引文。”
Ethan Smith: And then I keep on doing derivatives of derivatives, and then you have an infinite loop of derivatives, and now AI is summarizing itself.
伊森·史密斯：然后我继续做衍生品的衍生品，然后衍生品的无限循环，现在人工智能正在总结自己。
There's a paper about this called Model Collapse.
有一篇关于此的论文，名为“模型崩溃”。
So again, there's the core algorithm and then there's the RAG piece.
再说一遍，先是核心算法，然后是 RAG 部分。
So the core algorithm, a group did a study showing model collapse, which was what if you feed in AI derivatives into the model and train the core model on the derivatives?
所以核心算法，一个小组做了一个研究，显示模型崩溃了，如果你将人工智能衍生品输入到模型中并在衍生品上训练核心模型会怎么样？
Ethan Smith: And then what happened was you had all these problems, hallucinations, things break very quickly.
伊森·史密斯：然后发生的事情是你遇到了所有这些问题、幻觉，事情很快就崩溃了。
Okay.
好的。
So then we did a study on what if you feed derivatives into the RAG piece?
那么我们做了一项研究，如果将衍生品输入到 RAG 部分会怎样？
So generate 10 derivatives, put that into RAG, summarize that.
因此生成 10 个导数，将其放入 RAG 中，进行总结。
And then generate 10 more, and then summarize my summarizations, infinite loop of derivatives.
然后再生成10个，然后总结我的总结，无限循环导数。
What happens?
会发生什么？
Ethan Smith: And so what happens is there's a wisdom of the crowd.
伊森·史密斯：所以发生的事情是群众的智慧。
The LLM is summarizing the opinion of many people.
LLM是总结了很多人的意见。
So if you ask a question like, "What's the best flavor of ice cream?" There's not one answer, there's thousands of opinions.
因此，如果您问这样的问题：“冰淇淋最好的口味是什么？”没有一个答案，有成千上万种意见。
So the LLM is summarizing these many, many opinions in this wisdom of the crowd.
所以法学硕士就是在大众的智慧中总结了很多很多的观点。
Ethan Smith: And the wisdom of the crowd basically says that, "If you take the average of a large group of people, their average response will be better than the best single individual in the group." And so it's better to have more diversity of opinions, wisdom of the crowd.
伊森·史密斯：群体的智慧基本上是这样说的：“如果你取一大群人的平均值，他们的平均反应将比群体中最好的个体更好。”因此，最好有更多不同的意见和群众的智慧。
So what happens to the infinite loop of derivatives?
那么导数的无限循环会发生什么呢？
You essentially converge on one opinion.
你们基本上都集中在一个观点上。
Ethan Smith: So if you ask, "What's the best flavor of ice cream?" It will eventually say, "It's vanilla and it's only vanilla, and there's no other flavor of ice cream." And so that's a simple example, but if you feed in derivatives of derivatives into the model, you'll basically take the wisdom of the crowd.
伊森·史密斯：如果你问“冰淇淋最好的口味是什么？”它最终会说：“这是香草，只有香草，没有其他口味的冰淇淋。”这是一个简单的例子，但如果你将衍生品的衍生品输入到模型中，你基本上就会吸收大众的智慧。
Ethan Smith: And that will shrink and you'll have a single opinion on everything, which is really bad.
伊桑·史密斯：这种情况会缩小，你会对所有事情都有单一的看法，这真的很糟糕。
So that's what happens if AI content, 100% unassisted AI content works.
这就是如果人工智能内容、100% 无需辅助的人工智能内容有效的话会发生什么。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm afraid of this world where everything is trained on AI, and AI is trained on AI and generating AI, and just like nothing is trusted.
Lenny Rachitsky：我害怕这个世界，一切都在人工智能上训练，人工智能在人工智能上训练并生成人工智能，就像没有什么是可信的一样。
And I love how it's interesting just how much of these incentives are driving this.
我喜欢有趣的是这些激励措施在多大程度上推动了这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: If ChatGPT was finding this valuable, this is what people do and then just goes off the rails.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果 ChatGPT 认为这很有价值，那么人们就会这样做，然后就会偏离轨道。
So there's just some team there that is keeping this from happening.
所以只有一些团队在阻止这种情况发生。
How do you think this evolves?
您认为这将如何发展？
Lenny Rachitsky: If you were them, what would you do over the next few years to keep things high quality and not drive these perverse incentives?
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你是他们，在接下来的几年里你会采取什么措施来保持高质量而不是驱动这些不正当的激励措施？
Ethan Smith: So I would identify what the perverse incentives might be, and AI-generated content is one of them.
伊森·史密斯：所以我会确定不正当的激励措施可能是什么，人工智能生成的内容就是其中之一。
The second thing is I think that LLMs and search are going to converge.
第二件事是我认为法学硕士和搜索将会融合。
And so you're seeing that with Google Search where they're having LLM, AI Overviews.
所以你会在谷歌搜索中看到他们有法学硕士、人工智能概述。
You're seeing that with LLMs where they're incorporating maps and shopping carousels, and it's converging on search.
你会在法学硕士中看到这一点，他们将地图和购物轮播结合在一起，并且正在与搜索融合。
Ethan Smith: I think it'll converge on a single experience, so that's the first thing.
伊森·史密斯：我认为它将集中在单一体验上，所以这是第一件事。
Figure out what 2007 Ethan would do not to create spam and make sure that he doesn't do that, like AI-generated content or it's great content.
弄清楚 2007 年 Ethan 会做什么来避免创建垃圾邮件，并确保他不会这样做，例如人工智能生成的内容或精彩的内容。
That'd the second thing.
这是第二件事。
And the third thing is there's all these other interesting features, use cases that LLMs can be great for.
第三件事是法学硕士可以非常适合所有其他有趣的功能和用例。
Ethan Smith: So LLMs could be great for remembering everything that you've ever asked.
伊森·史密斯（Ethan Smith）：所以法学硕士非常适合记住你曾经问过的所有问题。
It could be good for personalizing stuff specifically to Lenny.
这对于专门为莱尼提供个性化的东西可能很有用。
One interesting use case that I think will eventually come would be, I say, "Plan a trip to San Francisco," and decisions are made for you without any intervention.
我认为最终会出现的一个有趣的用例是“计划去旧金山旅行”，并且无需任何干预即可为您做出决定。
I have this wonderful EA named Jen.
我有一个很棒的 EA，名叫 Jen。
Ethan Smith: And I say, "Jen, I'm going to Miami.
伊桑·史密斯：我说，“珍，我要去迈阿密。
Please, just do everything for me," and she does everything for me.
请为我做一切”，她为我做了一切。
She knows me, she knows my preferences, she knows that I want a ocean view and I want a restaurant with music.
她了解我，她知道我的喜好，她知道我想要海景，我想要一家有音乐的餐厅。
She does all of that and I don't have to intervene.
这一切都是她做的，我不需要干涉。
AI can essentially do that eventually, and that would do that because it would deeply understand you.
人工智能最终基本上可以做到这一点，而且它会做到这一点，因为它会深入理解你。
Ethan Smith: It would remember everything about you.
伊森·史密斯：它会记住关于你的一切。
It would have context, it would have a reasoning, and then it would be able to make all these decisions without your intervention, which would be autonomous agents.
它会有背景，有推理，然后它就能够在没有你干预的情况下做出所有这些决定，这将是自主代理。
So I think that that's also another very interesting place for someone like me to optimize for as well.
所以我认为这也是像我这样的人可以优化的另一个非常有趣的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
I was just going to say, just imagine not even being told this is what you're choosing.
我只是想说，想象一下甚至没有人告诉你这是你的选择。
Like, "Oh, and go check out, subscribe to the best newsletter out there." And if you're out there, the good things will happen.
就像，“哦，去看看，订阅最好的时事通讯。”如果你在那里，好事就会发生。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, what a wild world.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，多么狂野的世界啊。
Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you think would be helpful to folks that are trying to get better at this stuff?
还有哪些我们没有涉及到的内容，您认为对那些试图在这方面做得更好的人有帮助？
Try to take the first steps down this road of AEO?
尝试在 AEO 这条路上迈出第一步吗？
Ethan Smith: Yes, the most exciting topic, which is help center optimization and support.
Ethan Smith：是的，最令人兴奋的话题，就是帮助中心的优化和支持。
Ethan Smith: So I mentioned that people in chat are asking follow-up questions.
伊森·史密斯：所以我提到聊天中的人正在询问后续问题。
They're looking for tools.
他们正在寻找工具。
Do you have this feature, this use case, this integration?
您有这个功能、这个用例、这个集成吗？
And that frequently can be answered in help centers.
这通常可以在帮助中心得到解答。
Usually, you would not have an SEO team and say, "We really want you guys to focus on the help center."
通常，您不会有一个 SEO 团队并说：“我们真的希望你们专注于帮助中心。”
Ethan Smith: But in chat, since there's all these questions about can you do this thing, can you fulfill my use case?
Ethan Smith：但是在聊天中，由于有很多关于你能做这件事的问题吗？你能满足我的用例吗？
A help center is actually a great place to do that, and so I think how can you optimize the help center?
帮助中心实际上是一个很好的地方，所以我认为如何优化帮助中心？
So number one is it's frequently on a subdomain.
第一是它经常位于子域上。
For whatever reason, subdomains don't work as well as subdirectories, so move it to a subdirectory, number one.
无论出于何种原因，子域的工作效果不如子目录，因此将其移动到子目录，第一。
Ethan Smith: Number two is make sure that you're cross-linking well.
Ethan Smith：第二点是确保交联良好。
So usually you do not have optimized internal links, so link from help center page to help center page, make sure there's lots of cross-linking.
因此，通常您没有优化的内部链接，因此从帮助中心页面链接到帮助中心页面，确保有大量的交叉链接。
The third is you probably have help center content about the head, but the tail you probably don't have any help center content for.
第三个是您可能有关于头部的帮助中心内容，但您可能没有任何关于尾部的帮助中心内容。
Ethan Smith: So an example of this is I was looking for, I wanted to track our sales calls and look to see who was in the meeting and what the sentiment was.
伊森·史密斯：我一直在寻找这样的一个例子，我想跟踪我们的销售电话，看看谁参加了会议，以及会议的情绪是什么。
And I wanted to put that into Looker, so I said, "Which meeting transcription tool integrates with Looker?" And the answer is none of them, but you could use Otter because Otter has a Zapier integration.
我想将其放入 Looker 中，所以我说：“哪个会议转录工具与 Looker 集成？”答案是否定的，但您可以使用 Otter，因为 Otter 集成了 Zapier。
Ethan Smith: You could send a Zap of the meeting, put it into BigQuery, and then do Looker on top of that.
Ethan Smith：您可以发送会议的 Zap，将其放入 BigQuery，然后在此基础上执行 Looker。
But there wasn't a help center article about that because it's a very obscure use case, but it's not a zero use case.
但没有关于此的帮助中心文章，因为这是一个非常模糊的用例，但它不是零用例。
And so the tail, there's going to be a bunch of questions in the tail that you may not have help center articles for.
所以在尾部，尾部会有一堆问题，您可能没有帮助中心文章来解决这些问题。
Ethan Smith: So again, what are the questions in sales calls?
伊森·史密斯：那么，销售电话中会问什么问题呢？
What are the questions that you're seeing in customer support?
您在客户支持中看到哪些问题？
Having pages for that, I might even open up to the community.
有了这方面的页面，我什至可以向社区开放。
Anyone can ask anything because the community will then fill on the tail and then answer those.
任何人都可以问任何问题，因为社区将填充尾部并回答这些问题。
Ethan Smith: And again, in many cases there might be nobody talking about this at all.
伊森·史密斯：再说一遍，在很多情况下可能根本没有人谈论这个。
So you could be the only citation for this, and then win that tail of questions.
因此，您可能是唯一引用此内容的人，然后赢得了一系列问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Are there any help desk, I don't know, system software that are just making this easier yet?
Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道有没有帮助台系统软件可以让这一切变得更容易？
Or do you think that's an opportunity for, say, Zendesk or Intercom?
或者您认为这对 Zendesk 或 Intercom 来说是一个机会吗？
Ethan Smith: I think probably all of them should work perfectly well.
伊森·史密斯：我认为可能所有这些都应该工作得很好。
I think that the only thing you need to do is cross-linking and subdirectory rather than subdomain, which probably most of them do.
我认为您唯一需要做的就是交叉链接和子目录而不是子域，这可能是大多数人所做的。
So I think that they should all work for free.
所以我认为他们都应该免费工作。
Ethan Smith: That the main thing you would want to do would be, again, open it up to the community and make sure that you fill in the tail.
伊森·史密斯（Ethan Smith）：您想要做的主要事情是再次向社区开放并确保您填写了尾部。
But probably all those tools should be good for this.
但也许所有这些工具都应该对此有好处。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
Lenny Rachitsky：好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got five questions for you, Ethan.
伊森，我有五个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：您最常向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Ethan Smith: Number one is Emotional Intelligence, and people talk about the concept of emotional intelligence, but there's actual research and psychology around that.
伊森·史密斯：第一个是情商，人们谈论情商的概念，但有实际的研究和心理学围绕它。
I believe it was published in the '80s, but there's a really good book that summarizes the foundational research around emotional intelligence.
我相信它是在 80 年代出版的，但有一本非常好的书，总结了有关情商的基础研究。
And it's very useful when building relationships and communicating with people to understand their emotions.
在与人们建立关系和沟通以了解他们的情绪时，它非常有用。
So that's the first one.
这是第一个。
And doing growth because growth is getting people to use your stuff.
进行增长是因为增长让人们使用你的东西。
And so if you have frameworks to inform how people will use your things, then you can be a more effective growth person.
因此，如果你有框架来告诉人们如何使用你的东西，那么你就可以成为一个更有效的成长型人才。
Which brings me to my second book, which is Cialdini's Persuasion book.
这让我想到了我的第二本书，即西奥迪尼的《说服》一书。
Robert Cialdini does a bunch of books around persuasion, but again, there's frameworks for how to persuade somebody to sign up, buy something.
罗伯特·西奥迪尼（Robert Cialdini）写了很多关于说服的书，但同样，有一些框架可以指导如何说服某人注册、购买东西。
And so he breaks down his framework for that, and again, it's based on psychology.
所以他打破了他的框架，再次强调，它是基于心理学的。
And I think especially in growth, there's all kinds of psychology research and behavioral economics research to inform tests.
我认为特别是在成长方面，有各种各样的心理学研究和行为经济学研究可以为测试提供信息。
Ethan Smith: And if you just read Thinking, Fast and Slow, Persuasion, Emotional Intelligence, you can basically take those frameworks and apply it to growth in all kinds of different ways.
伊森·史密斯：如果你只阅读《思考》、《快与慢》、《说服》、《情商》，你基本上可以采用这些框架，并以各种不同的方式将其应用于成长。
And then the last is How to Measure Anything.
最后是如何测量任何东西。
So How to Measure Anything is about measuring things that are not immediately obvious to measure.
因此，如何测量任何事物是关于测量那些不立即明显需要测量的事物。
Ethan Smith: They give this example of they wanted to measure how good an orchestra conductor was and they could survey or they could see the number of standing ovations for each orchestra conductor.
伊森·史密斯：他们举了一个例子，他们想衡量一个乐团指挥的水平，他们可以进行调查，或者可以看到每个乐团指挥的起立鼓掌的次数。
And the more standing ovations probably means it's this better one and that you don't need to survey people.
更多的起立鼓掌可能意味着这是更好的，而且你不需要对人们进行调查。
Ethan Smith: But much of growth and business is things that are not immediately obvious for how to measure, but anything could be measured, and so that's my third record.
伊桑·史密斯：但是，增长和业务的大部分内容对于如何衡量来说并不是显而易见的，但任何事情都可以衡量，所以这是我的第三条记录。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?
Lenny Rachitsky：最近有没有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？
Ethan Smith: I don't really watch TV, but I watch two different groups of things.
伊森·史密斯：我不太看电视，但我看两类不同的东西。
I watch really aggressive sports, so I really like Michael Jordan documentary, Last Dance.
我观看非常激烈的体育运动，所以我非常喜欢迈克尔·乔丹的纪录片《最后之舞》。
I like Lance Armstrong documentaries about how aggressive and confrontational he is, and I love watching UFC.
我喜欢兰斯·阿姆斯特朗的纪录片，讲述他的攻击性和对抗性，我也喜欢看 UFC。
I like extreme aggression and intensity.
我喜欢极端的攻击性和强度。
The other group of stuff that I like to watch are climbing documentaries.
我喜欢看的另一组内容是攀岩纪录片。
Ethan Smith: So anything that Alex Honnold, Jimmy Chan do, I watch all that, which is the exact opposite of aggressive sports.
伊森·史密斯：所以亚历克斯·霍诺德、吉米·陈所做的任何事情我都会观看，这与侵略性运动完全相反。
So it's zen, being present, slow-and-steady craftsmanship.
所以它是禅宗、存在、缓慢而稳定的工艺。
But this is how I approach my work, which is extreme intensity and aggressiveness, and then the zen craftsmanship, being present.
但这就是我处理工作的方式，即极端的强度和侵略性，然后是禅宗工艺。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love how this explains why people love working with you and why you're good at this, is like this competitiveness and also just the super nerdiness to get really knowledgeable about how this stuff works.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这解释了为什么人们喜欢和你一起工作以及为什么你擅长这件事，就像这种竞争力，以及真正了解这些东西如何工作的超级书呆子气。
Lenny Rachitsky: And then I didn't think about the zen element of it, just lik staying calm throughout it all.
Lenny Rachitsky：然后我没有考虑其中的禅宗元素，只是在整个过程中保持冷静。
Lenny Rachitsky: Flow, what a funny microcosm of why you're so good at this.
Lenny Rachitsky：Flow，这是你为何如此擅长的一个有趣的缩影。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I'm going to keep going.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我会继续。
Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?
您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
Ethan Smith: This camera and this microphone.
伊森·史密斯：这个摄像头和这个麦克风。
So I got a Sony mirrorless SLR, I forget which one.
于是我就买了一台索尼无反单反，具体是哪一款我忘了。
But, sorry, getting a mirrorless SLR with a wide-angle lens really transforms your video calls.
但是，抱歉，拥有一台带有广角镜头的无反光镜单反相机确实可以改变您的视频通话。
And then I have this Shure microphone and I think it's like $180.
然后我有这款 Shure 麦克风，我想它的价格大概是 180 美元。
Ethan Smith: This dramatically improves the quality of my video call.
伊森·史密斯：这极大地提高了我的视频通话质量。
And I like to design things and you can design your video calls and you can make them amazing.
我喜欢设计东西，你可以设计你的视频通话，你可以让它们变得令人惊叹。
You can have flowers in the background, over here, some sunflowers.
你可以在背景中放一些花，这里是一些向日葵。
Ethan Smith: So my favorite products are my SLR camera that I use for video calls and my microphone.
伊森·史密斯：所以我最喜欢的产品是我用于视频通话的单反相机和麦克风。
Lenny Rachitsky: Your background is quite exquisite and I didn't mention that, but it looks beautiful.
Lenny Rachitsky：你的背景相当精致，我没有提到这一点，但它看起来很漂亮。
Okay, two more questions.
好吧，还有两个问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a life motto that you find really useful in work or in life?
Lenny Rachitsky：您有没有觉得在工作或生活中真正有用的人生座右铭？
Ethan Smith: There's the Outliers book about 10,000 hours.
Ethan Smith：《Outliers》一书大约有 10,000 小时。
And the themes there are you don't have to be the smartest, you have to be sufficiently smart, number one.
其中的主题是你不必是最聪明的，你必须足够聪明，第一。
Number two is focused practice, so it's not just trying hard, it's doing it in an intentional, focused way.
第二是专注练习，所以这不仅仅是努力尝试，而是有意识地、专注地进行。
And the third thing is lots of practice, so no one can master anything because they're a genius.
第三件事是大量的练习，所以没有人能因为自己是天才而掌握任何东西。
Ethan Smith: They master it because they spent a significant amount of time practicing and they practice in an intentional way.
伊森·史密斯：他们之所以能掌握它，是因为他们花了大量时间练习，而且是有意识地练习。
And so my motto is essentially a combination of those things, which is that I'm not going to necessarily win because my brain is the largest brain or that I tried the hardest.
所以我的座右铭本质上是这些东西的结合，那就是我不一定会赢，因为我的大脑是最大的大脑或者我最努力。
Ethan Smith: It's because I'm going to be the most intentional about my practice, and I'm going to be as intense as I possibly can be about that practice.
伊森·史密斯：这是因为我将最有意识地进行练习，并且我将尽可能地热衷于练习。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, final question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，最后一个问题。
I'm curious if there's just like an SEO or even an AEO win, you're just most proud of?
我很好奇是否有像 SEO 甚至 AEO 胜利这样的事情，是您最引以为傲的？
Lenny Rachitsky: That you always think about, "Wow, I can't believe I pulled that off.
Lenny Rachitsky：你总是会想，“哇，我不敢相信我成功了。
I can't believe the impact we had there"?
我不敢相信我们在那里产生的影响”？
Ethan Smith: I always liked the example of butter lettuce with MasterClass.
伊森·史密斯：我一直很喜欢大师班的黄油生菜的例子。
Because MasterClass, when I was first working with them, they did not have nearly as much authority as Allrecipes and Martha Stewart.
因为 MasterClass，当我第一次与他们合作时，他们没有 Allrecipes 和 Martha Stewart 那么大的权威。
And I actually didn't know if I should take the project because I thought it might be too hard.
事实上我不知道我是否应该接受这个项目，因为我认为它可能太难了。
Ethan Smith: But I did the project and it was hard, but we were able to rank really competitively and way better than I expected.
伊森·史密斯：但我做了这个项目，这很困难，但我们能够真正有竞争力地排名，而且比我预期的要好得多。
And I think it's probably because of all these specific, little execution details.
我认为这可能是因为所有这些具体的、小的执行细节。
But butter lettuce was my favorite one, and I like butter lettuce, so I can search for butter lettuce and I can get a recipe on MasterClass.
但黄油生菜是我最喜欢的，我喜欢黄油生菜，所以我可以搜索黄油生菜，我可以在大师班上找到食谱。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I don't know if butter lettuce has been mentioned on this podcast before.
我不知道这个播客之前是否提到过黄油生菜。
Ethan, this was incredible.
伊森，这太不可思议了。
This was everything I was hoping it'd be.
这就是我所希望的一切。
Lenny Rachitsky: I feel like we've just leveled up everyone's knowledge on what the hell is happening with SEO and AEO?
Lenny Rachitsky：我觉得我们刚刚提高了每个人对 SEO 和 AEO 到底发生了什么的了解？
Forget about GEO.
忘掉GEO吧。
Lenny Rachitsky: Two final questions, where can folks find you if they want to potentially work with you guys?
Lenny Rachitsky：最后两个问题，如果人们想与你们一起工作，他们可以在哪里找到你们？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Ethan Smith: So where you can find me, number one, is on LinkedIn.
伊森·史密斯：所以你可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。
I spend lots of time on LinkedIn and I publish original, so we do original research.
我在 LinkedIn 上花费了大量时间并发布原创内容，因此我们进行原创研究。
We have a whole research team hypothesizing and evaluating those hypotheses.
我们有一个完整的研究团队来假设并评估这些假设。
So we publish, all the studies that I mentioned, we publish on our site and I publish them on LinkedIn.
所以我们发布了我提到的所有研究，我们在我们的网站上发布，我也在 LinkedIn 上发布它们。
Ethan Smith: So follow me on LinkedIn, add me on LinkedIn, send me a message.
伊森·史密斯：所以在 LinkedIn 上关注我，在 LinkedIn 上添加我，给我发消息。
LinkedIn, number one, and then number two is we have a blog which we call The 5%.
LinkedIn，第一，第二是我们有一个博客，我们称之为“The 5%”。
So /5%, which stands for 5% of work, 5% of landing pages drive almost all the impact, so that's the theme.
所以 /5%，代表 5% 的工作，5% 的登陆页面驱动几乎所有的影响，所以这就是主题。
This is only useful stuff.
这只是有用的东西。
So our blog at 5%, you could subscribe to our email and to our studies.
所以我们的博客是 5%，您可以订阅我们的电子邮件和我们的研究。
And then how can people be useful to me?
那么人们怎样才能对我有用呢？
Ethan Smith: So I spent time thinking about this and there's two ways people can help me.
伊森·史密斯：所以我花了时间思考这个问题，人们可以通过两种方式帮助我。
The first way is that there's not that much research around what works in AEO, and I would love to know what people are testing and what the results are and what works.
第一种方法是，关于 AEO 中哪些内容有效的研究并不多，我很想知道人们正在测试哪些内容、结果是什么以及哪些内容有效。
So people doing studies and publishing that are sending it to me, I would love as much analysis and research as possible, number one.
因此，从事研究和出版的人们将其发送给我，我希望尽可能多的分析和研究，第一。
Ethan Smith: Then the second one is to help me on LinkedIn by commenting on my posts and on my comments.
伊森·史密斯：第二个是在 LinkedIn 上帮助我评论我的帖子和评论。
So you posted most recently the Brian Balfour episode, for which I wrote a long, thoughtful comment, and then I got about 25 likes and then I got responses to that.
你最近发布了 Brian Balfour 的一集，我为此写了一篇长长的、深思熟虑的评论，然后我得到了大约 25 个赞，然后我得到了回复。
And so I've been commenting on other people's LinkedIn posts and I've been writing these long LinkedIn posts.
因此，我一直在评论其他人的 LinkedIn 帖子，并且一直在写这些长 LinkedIn 帖子。
Ethan Smith: And when people comment, it boosts the engagement within LinkedIn and then I get mass distribution.
伊森·史密斯：当人们发表评论时，它会提高 LinkedIn 内的参与度，然后我就会得到大规模分发。
So the more people and thoughtful comments, so not this is great, but a long, thoughtful comment that stimulates conversation.
因此，更多的人和深思熟虑的评论，所以不是这很好，而是一个长的、深思熟虑的评论，可以刺激对话。
So if people comment on my posts, then I'm just going to blow up on LinkedIn and I might be as big as you someday.
因此，如果人们评论我的帖子，那么我就会在 LinkedIn 上火起来，有一天我可能会像你一样伟大。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love how tactical his ask is.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢他提出的战术性要求。
It's something Bryan Johnson I noticed is really good at on Twitter, the longevity guy.
我注意到布莱恩·约翰逊（Bryan Johnson）在推特上非常擅长这一点，他是一位长寿之人。
Lenny Rachitsky: He just replies to tweets in a really funny way and feels like that's a big growth channel for him.
Lenny Rachitsky：他只是以一种非常有趣的方式回复推文，感觉这对他来说是一个很大的成长渠道。
So I love that you have this in common with Bryan Johnson.
所以我很高兴你和布莱恩·约翰逊有这个共同点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Also, just to point people to your domain, graphite.io, is that the right domain?
Lenny Rachitsky：另外，只是为了将人们指向您的域名，graphite.io，这是正确的域名吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Ethan, thank you so much for sharing so much with us and for being here.
伊森，非常感谢您与我们分享这么多并来到这里。
Ethan Smith: Absolutely.
伊桑·史密斯：当然。
It's good to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Lenny Rachitsky: Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。