Taking control of your career | Ethan Evans (Amazon)
Ethan Evans: People think invention takes all this time, but you only need two hours once a month.
伊森·埃文斯：人们认为发明需要所有的时间，但每个月一次只需要两个小时。
The thing is, once you have one good idea, it often takes years to express that.
问题是，一旦你有了一个好主意，通常需要数年时间才能表达出来。
Ethan Evans: So you had the idea to have a newsletter.
伊森·埃文斯：所以你有了制作时事通讯的想法。
I know some of the history of your newsletter.
我知道你们的时事通讯的一些历史。
You've been working on the expression of that idea for years now.
多年来你一直致力于表达这个想法。
Jeff and Amazon had ideas like, "Let's have Prime shipping." Prime is still getting better and still being worked on.
杰夫和亚马逊有这样的想法：“让我们拥有 Prime 送货服务。” Prime 仍在变得更好，并且仍在开发中。
It's a 20 some year old idea.
这是一个20多年前的想法。
The Kindle, a decades old idea now still getting better.
Kindle，一个几十年前的想法，现在仍在变得更好。
The point here is you don't need very many good ideas to be seen as tremendously inventive.
这里的要点是，你不需要太多好主意就能被视为极具创造力。
Lenny: Today my guest is Ethan Evans.
莱尼：今天我的客人是伊森·埃文斯。
Ethan is a former vice president at Amazon, executive coach, and course creator focused on helping leaders grow into executives.
伊森 (Ethan) 是亚马逊前副总裁、高管教练和课程创建者，专注于帮助领导者成长为高管。
Ethan spent 15 years at Amazon, helped invent and run Prime Video, the Amazon Appstore, Prime Gaming, and Twitch Commerce, which alone is a billion-dollar business for Amazon.
Ethan 在亚马逊工作了 15 年，帮助发明并运营了 Prime Video、亚马逊应用商店、Prime Gaming 和 Twitch Commerce，仅这一项就为亚马逊带来了数十亿美元的业务。
He led global teams of over 800, helped draft one of Amazon's 14 core leadership principles, holds over 70 patents, and currently spends his time executive coaching and running courses to help people advance in their career, build leadership skills, and succeed in senior roles.
他领导了超过 800 人的全球团队，帮助起草了亚马逊 14 项核心领导原则之一，拥有 70 多项专利，目前花时间进行高管辅导和开设课程，以帮助人们在职业生涯中取得进步、培养领导技能并在高级职位上取得成功。
Lenny: In our conversation, Ethan shares an amazing story of when he failed on an important project for Jeff Bezos and what he learned from that experience.
莱尼：在我们的谈话中，伊森分享了一个令人惊奇的故事，讲述了他在杰夫·贝佐斯的一个重要项目上失败的经历，以及他从这次经历中学到的东西。
We spent some time on something called The Magic Loop, which is a very simple idea that I guarantee will help you get promoted and advance in your career.
我们花了一些时间研究“神奇循环”，这是一个非常简单的想法，我保证它将帮助您获得晋升并在职业生涯中取得进步。
We also get into a bunch of other career advice, primarily for senior ICs, any managers.
我们还提供了许多其他职业建议，主要针对高级 IC 人员和任何经理。
We get into advice for standing out in interviews, plus some of Amazon's most important and impactful leadership principles and much more.
我们获得了在面试中脱颖而出的建议，以及亚马逊一些最重要和最有影响力的领导原则等等。
I learned a lot from Ethan and I'm excited to bring you this episode.
我从伊森那里学到了很多东西，很高兴为大家带来这一集。
With that, I bring you Ethan Evans after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了伊森·埃文斯 (Ethan Evans)。
Lenny: Let me tell you about our product called Sidebar.
Lenny：让我告诉你我们的产品 Sidebar。
The best way to level up your career is to surround yourself with extraordinary peers.
提升职业生涯的最佳方法是让自己周围都是杰出的同行。
This gives you more than a leg up.
这不仅能让您更有优势。
It gives you a leap forward.
它给你一个飞跃。
This worked really well for me in my career and this is the Sidebar ethos.
这对我的职业生涯非常有效，这就是侧边栏精神。
When you have a trusted group of peers, you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.
当你有一群值得信赖的同事时，你可以讨论你遇到的挑战，获得职业建议，并直觉地检查你如何看待你的工作、职业和生活。
This was a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group of peers.
这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变，但建立这个值得信赖的同行群体是很困难的。
Lenny: Sidebar is a private, highly vetted leadership program, where senior leaders are matched with peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives, and raw feedback.
Lenny：Sidebar 是一个经过严格审查的私人领导力项目，高级领导者与同行群体相匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。
Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, Sidebar enables you to get focused tactical feedback at every step of your career journey.
在世界一流的编程和便利指导下，Sidebar 使您能够在职业生涯的每一步获得有针对性的战术反馈。
Lenny: If you're a listener of this podcast, you're already committed to growth.
莱尼：如果您是这个播客的听众，那么您已经致力于成长。
Sidebar is the missing piece that catalyze your career.
侧边栏是促进您职业生涯的缺失部分。
93% of members a sidebar helped them achieve a significant positive change in their career.
93% 的会员侧边栏帮助他们在职业生涯中实现了重大积极的改变。
Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today?
今天您就可以在补充工具栏上见到您的朋友，为什么要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？
Join thousands of top senior leaders who have taken the first step to career growth from companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta, by visiting sidebar.com/lenny.
访问 sidebar.com/lenny，加入数千位在 Microsoft、Amazon 和 Meta 等公司迈出职业发展第一步的高级领导者行列。
That's sidebar.com/lenny.
这是 sidebar.com/lenny。
Lenny: Let me tell you about a product called Sprig.
Lenny：让我告诉你一个叫做 Sprig 的产品。
Next gen Product teams like Figma and Notion rely on Sprig to build products that people love.
Figma 和 Notion 等下一代产品团队依靠 Sprig 来构建人们喜爱的产品。
Sprig is an AI powered platform that enables you to collect relevant product experience insights from the right users so you can make product decisions quickly and confidently.
Sprig 是一个人工智能驱动的平台，使您能够从正确的用户那里收集相关的产品体验见解，以便您可以快速、自信地做出产品决策。
Lenny: Here's how it works.
莱尼：这就是它的工作原理。
It all starts with Sprig's precise targeting, which allows you to trigger in-app studies based on users' characteristics and actions taken in product.
这一切都始于 Sprig 的精确定位，它允许您根据用户的特征和在产品中采取的操作触发应用内研究。
Then Sprig's AI is layered on top of all studies to instantly surface your product's biggest learnings.
然后，Sprig 的人工智能会叠加在所有研究之上，以立即呈现您产品的最大学习成果。
Sprig's surveys enables you to target specific users to get relevant and timely feedback.
Sprig 的调查使您能够定位特定用户以获得相关且及时的反馈。
Sprig replays enables you to capture targeted session clips to see your product experience firsthand.
Sprig 重播使您能够捕获目标会话剪辑，以亲身了解您的产品体验。
Lenny: Sprig's AI is a game changer for product teams.
Lenny：Sprig 的 AI 改变了产品团队的游戏规则。
They're the only platform with product level AI, meaning it analyzes data across all of your studies to centralize the most important product opportunities, trends, and correlations in one real-time feed.
它们是唯一具有产品级人工智能的平台，这意味着它可以分析您所有研究中的数据，以将最重要的产品机会、趋势和相关性集中在一个实时源中。
Visit sprig.com/lenny to learn more and get 10% off.
请访问 sprig.com/lenny 了解更多信息并享受 10% 折扣。
That's sprig.com/lenny.
那是 sprig.com/lenny。
Lenny: Ethan, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
莱尼：伊森，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Ethan Evans: Lenny, thank you a ton for having me.
伊森·埃文斯：莱尼，非常感谢你邀请我。
I'm super excited to talk about some of the things we have teed up today and to help people.
我非常高兴能够谈论我们今天准备好的一些事情并帮助人们。
Lenny: The first thing I thought we could chat about is The Magic Loop.
莱尼：我认为我们可以聊的第一件事是“Magic Loop”。
So you wrote this guest post from my newsletter sometime earlier this year.
所以你在今年早些时候的某个时候从我的时事通讯中写了这篇客座文章。
It is, I don't know if you know this, but it's currently the sixth most popular post of all time on my newsletter across 300 plus posts.
是的，我不知道你是否知道这一点，但它目前是我的时事通讯中 300 多篇帖子中最受欢迎的帖子中排名第六的帖子。
Did you expect this advice to resonate the way that it did, and why do you think it resonated as much as it did?
您是否期望这个建议会引起如此大的共鸣？您认为为什么它会引起如此大的共鸣？
Ethan Evans: So the competitive part of me really wants to analyze spots one to five and figure out, do they have an unfair advantage that they had more time?
伊森·埃文斯：所以我内心的竞争部分真的想分析第一到第五个位置并弄清楚，他们是否拥有不公平的优势，因为他们有更多的时间？
But I was very hopeful that the advice would resonate that way, because I put a lot of work into simplifying it and making it really easy to understand and follow.
但我非常希望这些建议能够引起共鸣，因为我投入了大量的工作来简化它并使其非常容易理解和遵循。
So I'm very pleased it has, but I was hopeful it would do so well.
所以我很高兴它能做到这一点，但我希望它能做得这么好。
Lenny: Well, I will say sometimes they keep growing, so this isn't necessarily the terminal point for the post.
莱尼：嗯，我会说有时它们会不断增长，所以这不一定是这篇文章的终点。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
So for people that haven't read this post, or maybe for folks that have and maybe could use a refresher, let's spend a little time here.
因此，对于那些还没有读过这篇文章的人，或者对于那些已经读过并且可能需要复习一下的人，让我们在这里花一点时间。
Could you just briefly describe this idea of The Magic Loop that you wrote about?
您能简单描述一下您所写的“神奇循环”的想法吗？
Ethan Evans: Yeah, absolutely.
伊森·埃文斯：是的，绝对是。
So The Magic Loop is how to grow your career in almost any circumstance, even with a somewhat difficult manager.
因此，神奇循环是如何在几乎任何情况下发展你的职业生涯的，即使是面对一个有点难相处的经理。
It does assume that you're working in some environment, normally as an entrepreneur or with a boss.
它确实假设您在某种环境中工作，通常是作为企业家或与老板一起工作。
But the basic idea of The Magic Loop is five steps and they're very easy.
但“神奇循环”的基本思想是五个步骤，而且非常简单。
Ethan Evans: The first one is you have to be doing your current job well.
伊森·埃文斯：第一个是你必须做好当前的工作。
It's not possible to really grow your career if you're not considered at least performing at a solid level.
如果你不被认为至少有稳定的表现，你就不可能真正发展你的职业生涯。
Now, it doesn't mean you have to be the star on the team at this point, but what you can't have is your boss wishing that you were different.
现在，这并不意味着你此时必须成为团队中的明星，但你不能让你的老板希望你与众不同。
Like, "Ethan's not very good." So you have to talk to your manager and find out how you're doing and address any problems.
就像，“伊森不太好。”因此，您必须与您的经理交谈，了解您的表现并解决任何问题。
So step one is do your job well.
所以第一步就是做好你的工作。
Ethan Evans: Then step two is ask your boss how you can help.
伊森·埃文斯：第二步是询问你的老板你能提供什么帮助。
Speaking as a manager, and I've talked to hundreds of managers, very few people go and ask their manager, "What can I do to help you?
作为一名经理，我与数百名经理交谈过，很少有人去问他们的经理：“我能为你做些什么？
What do you need?" And so just asking sets you apart, and it begins to build a relationship that we're on the same team, that I'm here as a part of your organization to make you successful, not just myself.
你需要什么？”因此，只要提出要求，就能让你与众不同，并开始建立一种我们在同一个团队的关系，我作为你组织的一部分，不仅仅是我自己，是为了让你成功。
Ethan Evans: Step three is whatever they say, do it.
伊森·埃文斯：第三步就是无论他们说什么，就做什么。
So you dig a big hole.
所以你挖了一个大洞。
If you say, "What could I do to help you?" And they say, "Well, we really need someone to take out the tray sheets day," and you're like, "Oh, I didn't mean that.
如果你说：“我能为你做些什么吗？”他们说，“好吧，我们真的需要有人在那天拿出托盘单，”你会说，“哦，我不是那个意思。
I wanted exciting work.
我想要令人兴奋的工作。
I don't want to do sort of this maintenance work or whatever." So do what they ask, help out even if it's not your favorite work.
我不想做这种维护工作或其他什么的。”所以，按照他们的要求去做，即使这不是你最喜欢的工作，也要帮忙。
Ethan Evans: Once you've done that though, and maybe you do that a couple times, the fourth step is where the magic comes in.
伊森·埃文斯：一旦你做到了这一点，也许你做了几次，第四步就是神奇的地方。
You go back to your manager and say, "Hey, I'm really enjoying working with you.
你回到你的经理那里并说：“嘿，我真的很喜欢和你一起工作。
I'm wondering is there some way I could help you that would also help me reach my goal?" And whether that goal is to change roles or get a raise or get a promotion, you say, "My goal is I'd really like to learn this new skill.
我想知道是否有什么方法可以帮助你，同时也能帮助我实现我的目标？”无论这个目标是改变角色、加薪还是升职，你都会说：“我的目标是我真的很想学习这项新技能。
Is there something you need that would also help me learn this new skill?" And the reason this works is managers help those who help them.
你需要什么东西来帮助我学习这项新技能吗？”之所以有效，是因为管理者帮助了那些帮助他们的人。
It's just human nature.
这只是人性。
We all do that.
我们都这样做。
Ethan Evans: Generally, they're very open to meeting you halfway and saying, "Sure, I need this.
伊森·埃文斯：一般来说，他们很愿意半途而废，并说：“当然，我需要这个。
We can rearrange it.
我们可以重新安排它。
We can find a way to meet your goals over time." Now for step four to work, you do have to know what is your goal, so you have to be clear on what it is you want.
随着时间的推移，我们可以找到一种方法来实现您的目标。”现在，要使第四步发挥作用，您必须知道您的目标是什么，因此您必须清楚自己想要什么。
Well, that part's up to you.
好吧，这部分取决于你。
Ethan Evans: And then step five is the easiest step of all.
伊森·埃文斯：第五步是最简单的一步。
It's just repeat.
这只是重复。
So like lather, rinse, repeat with your shampoo.
就像起泡沫一样，冲洗，然后用洗发水重复上述步骤。
Step five is once you're working with your manager towards your goal and discussing where you're going, and you're helping each other, the magic of the loop is just go around and around.
第五步是，一旦你与你的经理一起努力实现你的目标并讨论你的目标，并且你们互相帮助，循环的魔力就是一圈又一圈。
Lenny: I was going to ask you, why is it that you call it The Magic Loop?
莱尼：我想问你，为什么你把它称为“神奇循环”？
Also, we kind of dived right in, but what is the goal of this?
另外，我们有点直接投入，但这样做的目标是什么？
I guess it's pretty clear maybe at this point of this helps you advance in your career, but whatever you want to share along those lines.
我想很明显，也许在这一点上这可以帮助你在职业生涯中取得进步，但无论你想分享什么，都可以。
Ethan Evans: Yeah, okay.
伊森·埃文斯：是的，好的。
Very fair.
非常公平。
So I called it The Magic Loop because I pioneered it with my audience a few years ago.
所以我将其称为“神奇循环”，因为几年前我与观众一起开创了它。
And it works so well, that people were writing back in and saying, "How do I turn this off?
它的效果非常好，以至于人们回信说：“我该如何关闭它？
I'm in over my head now.
我现在有点不知所措了。
My boss has asked me to do all these cool things, and I feel like I can't catch up, and I've already been promoted once and I need time to digest it." And it just seemed like it worked like magic.
我的老板要求我做所有这些很酷的事情，我觉得我跟不上，而且我已经升职一次了，我需要时间来消化它。”看起来就像有魔法一样。
It worked in almost every circumstance.
它几乎在所有情况下都有效。
Ethan Evans: There are of course exceptions where you have very exploitative managers who are like, "Oh, it's great.
伊森·埃文斯：当然也有例外，如果你的经理非常剥削，他们会说：“哦，这太棒了。
You're working harder, keep doing that, and they won't do anything for you." But those are rare.
你更加努力地工作，继续这样做，他们不会为你做任何事情。”但这些很少见。
And then the purpose, yeah, to help you get satisfaction in your career.
然后，是的，目的是帮助您在职业生涯中获得满足感。
A lot of people are unhappy with their jobs.
很多人对自己的工作不满意。
Many people want to move up a level or get paid more.
许多人希望晋升或获得更高的薪水。
Not everyone.
不是每个人。
Some people want to change what they're doing, they're bored.
有些人想改变他们正在做的事情，他们感到无聊。
This is a path to all of that, because it's forming a partnership with your leadership to say, "Look, I'll help you, but I need you also to help me." And most good managers are very open to that.
这是实现所有这一切的途径，因为它正在与你的领导层建立伙伴关系，说：“听着，我会帮助你，但我也需要你来帮助我。”大多数优秀的管理者对此都持开放态度。
Lenny: When we were working on this, one of the pieces of feedback I had was I feel like I could just tell my manager, "Hey, I want to grow my career.
莱尼：当我们致力于此时，我得到的反馈之一是我觉得我可以告诉我的经理，“嘿，我想发展我的职业生涯。
What can we work on to help me get there?" And your feedback was like, most managers are not that good and not that thoughtful about their employee's careers.
我们可以做些什么来帮助我实现这一目标？”你的反馈是，大多数经理都没有那么优秀，对员工的职业生涯也没有那么周到。
Can you just talk a little bit about that?
你能简单谈谈这个吗？
People may be hearing this and be like, "Why do I need to do this?
人们听到这句话后可能会想：“为什么我需要这样做？
This seems like a lot of work."
这看起来工作量很大。”
Ethan Evans: If you have a great manager, you may not need to do nearly as much formality.
伊森·埃文斯：如果你有一位出色的经理，你可能不需要做那么多的手续。
They may have given you good feedback, so you don't need to ask for feedback.
他们可能给了你很好的反馈，所以你不需要寻求反馈。
They may have offered you opportunities to step up, and you've said yes to some and maybe no to others.
他们可能为你提供了晋升的机会，而你对某些人说“是”，也可能对另一些人说“不”。
That's fantastic.
太棒了。
I designed The Magic Loop for the people who either don't know what to do or their manager is either not that good or just very busy.
我为那些不知道该做什么或者他们的经理不是那么优秀或只是非常忙碌的人设计了“神奇循环”。
Ethan Evans: Remember, lots of managers have great intentions to help their employees, but they get busy with their own lives, their own work, all the things they're focused on, even also their own career.
伊森·埃文斯：请记住，很多经理都有很大的意图来帮助他们的员工，但他们却忙于自己的生活、自己的工作、所有他们关注的事情，甚至还有自己的职业生涯。
The manager is often busy thinking about their own needs, and so they mean to get to you next week, and next week drifts on for a year.
经理经常忙于考虑自己的需求，所以他们打算下周去找你，下周就这样过去了一年。
Lenny: What has come up since this has come out that you would want to either add to, or tweak, or help people better understand?
Lenny：自此发布以来，您希望添加、调整或帮助人们更好地理解哪些内容？
I imagine there's some criticism.
我想会有一些批评。
I imagine there's a lot of, "Yes, yes, yes.
我想有很多人会说：“是的，是的，是的。
This really works."
这确实有效。”
Ethan Evans: Two things I'd love to clarify.
伊森·埃文斯：我想澄清两件事。
The first is many people ask me, "Why do I have to do this?
首先，很多人问我：“为什么我必须这样做？
Shouldn't my manager notice what I'm doing?
难道我的经理不应该注意到我在做什么吗？
Shouldn't my manager help with my career?
我的经理不应该帮助我的职业生涯吗？
Shouldn't my manager be planning for me?" And what I say about that is what your manager should do and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
难道我的经理不应该为我做计划吗？”我所说的是你的经理应该做的，4 美元就能让你在星巴克喝一杯咖啡。
Ethan Evans: The point of this loop is it's in your control.
Ethan Evans：这个循环的重点是它在你的控制之下。
It is true that a good manager would do all those things I just mentioned, but not all managers are good and some of them need some help.
确实，一个好的经理会做我刚才提到的所有这些事情，但并不是所有的经理都是好的，其中一些需要一些帮助。
And the thing I would just say about The Magic Loop is it's in your control.
关于“Magic Loop”，我想说的是它完全在您的掌控之中。
Ethan Evans: And so you can be upset that your manager isn't perfect, but move on from that and take control of your own situation.
伊森·埃文斯：所以你可能会因为你的经理不完美而感到沮丧，但要摆脱这一点并控制自己的情况。
That's the first thing I'd say.
这是我要说的第一件事。
The other big extension I would make is look, if you are a manager or a leader of any type, you can initiate The Magic Loop from your side, so you can talk to your employees and say, "Hey, what are your career goals?
我要做的另一个大扩展是，如果你是经理或任何类型的领导者，你可以从你身边启动神奇循环，这样你就可以与你的员工交谈并说：“嘿，你的职业目标是什么？
Would you like to form a partnership where you step up to new challenges and I help you get to your goals?"
您愿意建立一种合作伙伴关系，让您迎接新的挑战，而我帮助您实现目标吗？”
Ethan Evans: I had a lot of success forming this kind of partnership with my employees, where as they saw growth and success, they really leaned in and like, "This system works.
伊森·埃文斯：我与员工建立了这种伙伴关系，取得了很大的成功，当他们看到成长和成功时，他们真的很投入并喜欢，“这个系统有效。
You're actually investing in me now.
你现在实际上是在投资我。
I'll work extra hard." And I'm like, "Yes, and we can grow your team or grow your opportunity," and it was very win-win.
我会加倍努力。”我想，“是的，我们可以发展你的团队或增加你的机会，”这是非常双赢的。
Lenny: To give people a little bit of social proof, you mentioned some of the folks you've worked with on this.
莱尼：为了给人们提供一点社会证明，你提到了一些与你一起工作过的人。
Can you share some stories, or stats, or anything to help people understand how helpful this ended up being to folks you've worked with?
您能否分享一些故事、统计数据或其他任何内容来帮助人们了解这对与您共事的人有多大帮助？
Ethan Evans: Yeah, absolutely.
伊森·埃文斯：是的，绝对是。
I'll tell one story from each end of the spectrum.
我将从各个方面讲述一个故事。
And what I mean there is entry-level people and then high level executive leaders.
我的意思是先有初级人员，然后是高层执行领导。
I had an entry-level person write me back and say, "Look, when I learned about The Magic Loop, I was at a company and not doing very well.
一位入门级人员给我回信说：“听着，当我了解到 The Magic Loop 时，我正在一家公司工作，而且做得不太好。
I started applying it.
我开始应用它。
They offered me a $30,000 raise and a bigger job.
他们给了我 30,000 美元的加薪和一份更大的工作。
And I turned it down because I got hired at this other company that was offering me even more, and I went there.
我拒绝了，因为我被另一家公司录用，这家公司给我提供的更多，然后我就去了那里。
And they've promoted me also," and he was one of the people who wrote in and said, his exact words were, "A year ago I was made redundant." So he is in the UK, redundant is their word for laid off.
他们也提升了我，”他是写信说的人之一，他的原话是，“一年前我被解雇了。”所以他在英国，他们所说的下岗是多余的。
"A year ago I was made redundant.
“一年前，我被解雇了。
I got this first job and I got an offer for an increased salary, and then I got the second job and I got an increase when I joined that was even bigger." And he was in that situation of, "Mow I need to sort of slow down and digest all of that."
我得到了第一份工作，并得到了加薪的机会，然后我得到了第二份工作，当我加入时，我得到了更大的加薪。”他处于这样的境地：“哎呀，我需要放慢速度并消化所有这些。”
Ethan Evans: On the complete other end, one of my best people I ever worked with joined my team at Amazon as what we would call an SDE II, which in Amazon is a level five employee.
Ethan Evans：在完全的另一端，我曾经共事过的最好的人之一加入了我在亚马逊的团队，我们称之为 SDE II，在亚马逊是五级员工。
He grew with me kind of following this process to a senior engineer.
他和我一起成长，沿着这个过程成为了一名高级工程师。
Then he switched to management and ran a small team.
然后他转向管理层并管理一个小团队。
Then he became a senior manager and he relocated with my organization.
然后他成为一名高级经理，并在我的组织中调动。
He opened a new office in another city, was eventually promoted to director running his own office of a couple hundred people.
他在另一个城市开设了一个新办公室，最终被提升为主管，管理自己的数百人办公室。
And this was over the course of about eight years.
这已经持续了大约八年的时间。
He went from a mid-level engineer to an executive with a team of 800 people.
他从一名中级工程师晋升为拥有800人团队的高管。
Now he was a very hard worker, but over this eight years we just saw all this progress.
现在他是一个非常努力的人，但是在这八年里我们才看到了所有这些进步。
Ethan Evans: And then eventually he moved on.
伊森·埃文斯：然后最终他继续前进。
He founded his own startup, sold that, and now works as an executive vice president at one of the major online banks.
他创立了自己的初创公司，并将其出售，现在在一家主要在线银行担任执行副总裁。
And so his career in some sense has exceeded mine, but during that eight year span, he just grew so much.
所以他的职业生涯在某种意义上已经超过了我的，但在那八年的时间里，他成长了很多。
And this is the process we followed.
这就是我们遵循的过程。
Lenny: Wow, those are excellent examples.
莱尼：哇，这些都是很好的例子。
What levels does this help you with?
这对你有什么帮助？
At what level is this most useful, and then does it kind of taper out it?
在什么级别最有用，然后它会逐渐减弱吗？
I don't know if you get to VP level, do you still try using Magic Loop?
不知道你到了VP级别之后，还会尝试使用Magic Loop吗？
Ethan Evans: So I think it works anywhere from the start of your career to pretty far into it.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：所以我认为从你职业生涯的开始到职业生涯的长期发展，它在任何地方都有效。
I think at my level, I finished my career as a vice president at Amazon.
我认为在我的水平上，我以亚马逊副总裁的身份结束了我的职业生涯。
It does peter out in the sense of the active.
从活跃的意义上来说，它确实逐渐消失。
And what I mean by that is you're still doing the same thing, but you don't have to talk about it.
我的意思是你仍然在做同样的事情，但你不必谈论它。
Your managers are expecting you to step up and recognize challenges.
您的经理希望您挺身而出并认识到挑战。
They're expecting you to ask for resources when you need them, and you don't sort of have this level of explicit conversation around, what can I help you with?
他们希望您在需要资源时请求资源，而您却没有这种程度的明确对话，我可以为您提供什么帮助？
They're expecting you to anticipate what's needed.
他们希望您能够预见到需要什么。
Ethan Evans: So in the newsletter we did together, I wrote about how over time, you go from asking your manager, "How can I help?" To suggesting to your manager, "These are some things I see that seem like they need to be done.
伊森·埃文斯：所以在我们一起做的时事通讯中，我写了随着时间的推移，你如何从询问你的经理，“我能帮忙吗？”向你的经理建议：“我认为这些事情似乎需要完成。
Would you like me to do them?" To just seeing what needs to be done and sort of keeping your leader in the loop and saying, "Hey, I noticed that we have this problem.
你想让我帮他们做吗？”只是看看需要做什么，让你的领导了解情况，然后说：“嘿，我注意到我们遇到了这个问题。
I fixed it.
我修好了。
I noticed we have this opportunity.
我注意到我们有这个机会。
I've started program against it." I think at the executive level, it's much more you being proactive and just keeping your leader in the loop.
我已经开始针对它的计划。”我认为在高管层面，更重要的是你要积极主动，让你的领导了解情况。
Lenny: I think in the post, the way you described this step is this is advanced mode.
莱尼：我认为在帖子中，您描述这一步的方式是这是高级模式。
Don't jump straight to this.
不要直接跳到这里。
Don't just start suggesting things, because you may get it wrong.
不要只是开始提出建议，因为你可能会出错。
Ethan Evans: Yeah, well, it's all a matter of rapport and trust.
伊森·埃文斯：是的，这都是关系和信任的问题。
A huge part of career success is how much trust you have, mutual respect with your leadership.
职业成功的一个重要部分在于你对领导的信任程度和相互尊重程度。
When they're confident that you're going to make the right decisions, they're confident to let you go.
当他们确信你会做出正确的决定时，他们就有信心让你离开。
But yeah, when you're brand new or you're new to a manager, if you just jump in, you may either not work on the things they value or even find yourself working across purposes, and that isn't the right place to start.
但是，是的，当你是一个全新的人，或者你是一个新的经理时，如果你只是跳进去，你可能要么不做他们看重的事情，甚至发现自己工作的目的不同，而这不是正确的起点。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
Just to close out this conversation.
只是为了结束这次谈话。
You touched on this, but why is it that you think this is so important and effective?
您提到了这一点，但为什么您认为这如此重要和有效？
Why do you think this works so well?
为什么你认为这个方法效果这么好？
People may not recognize, "I see this is the key to this."
人们可能没有意识到，“我认为这就是关键。”
Ethan Evans: Well, I think it's two things.
伊森·埃文斯：嗯，我认为这是两件事。
First, I mentioned how rare it is for managers to be offered help.
首先，我提到管理者获得帮助是多么罕见。
If you're a manager, you'll recognize this.
如果你是一名经理，你就会认识到这一点。
If not, feel free to talk to any manager, whether your own or somebody else.
如果没有，请随时与任何经理交谈，无论是您自己的还是其他人。
Ask them how much they worry and how much they feel overwhelmed and wish someone would give them a hand.
询问他们有多么担心，有多么不知所措，并希望有人能帮助他们。
Management can be a lonely job, because you feel like you're responsible for everything.
管理可能是一项孤独的工作，因为你觉得自己对一切负责。
So having an ally, it's just a huge weight off people's shoulders.
因此，有了一个盟友，人们肩上的担子就减轻了很多。
Ethan Evans: And then I think a lot about social engineering.
伊森·埃文斯：然后我对社会工程思考了很多。
The social engineering's here is just the simple, "You help me, I'll help you." It doesn't have to be exploitative, it's just we help those people who help us, and that's built into human survival.
这里的社会工程很简单，“你帮助我，我会帮助你。”它不一定是剥削性的，我们只是帮助那些帮助我们的人，这是人类生存的基础。
Ethan Evans: And I think this loop works so well because it's just leaning a little bit into that behavior.
Ethan Evans：我认为这个循环效果很好，因为它只是稍微倾向于这种行为。
So many relationships with managers are oppositional.
与经理的许多关系都是对立的。
You tell me what to do, and I'm kind of like a kid in high school who's trying to figure out how do I skip as many classes as possible and turn in as little homework and still get by with a D?
你告诉我该怎么做，我就像一个高中生，试图找出如何尽可能多地逃课、交尽可能少的作业并仍然获得 D 的成绩？
That relationship won't build your career.
这种关系不会建立你的职业生涯。
Ethan Evans: Some people approach their jobs as my goal is to do the least I can and still collect my paycheck.
伊森·埃文斯：有些人对待他们的工作是因为我的目标是尽我所能，同时仍然领取薪水。
That's an approach if you're okay with where you are.
如果您对自己的处境感到满意，那么这就是一种方法。
It's not what I coach though.
但这不是我所执教的。
I assume people want to grow.
我认为人们想要成长。
Lenny: Okay, so maybe it's just as a closing question, for people that are listening and want to start putting this into practice slash are stuck in their career and are just like, "Okay, I see.
莱尼：好吧，也许这只是一个结束语，对于那些正在倾听并想要开始将其付诸实践的人来说，斜杠被困在他们的职业生涯中，就像，“好吧，我明白了。
Here's something I can do." Could you just again summarize the loop briefly?
这是我能做的事。”您能再次简要总结一下循环吗？
Ethan Evans: Sure.
伊森·埃文斯：当然。
Step one, make sure you're doing your current job well.
第一步，确保你做好当前的工作。
The way I explain this is when you go to your manager and ask, "What could I do to help?" You don't want their answer, even if they don't say it quite so bluntly to be, "Do your F-ing job." You need to be doing that already.
我解释这一点的方式是，当你去找你的经理并询问“我能提供什么帮助吗？”你不会想要他们的答案，即使他们没有直白地说，“做你该死的工作。”你需要已经这样做了。
So be doing a good job.
所以一定要做好工作。
Ethan Evans: And unfortunately, a good job is in the eyes of your manager in this case.
伊森·埃文斯：不幸的是，在这种情况下，你的经理认为这是一份好工作。
You may think I'm doing great work, but if your manager doesn't, they're the ones you need to build as an ally here.
您可能认为我做得很好，但如果您的经理不这么认为，那么您需要将他们打造为盟友。
Ethan Evans: Once you have that, go ask how you can help, do whatever you're asked, and then go back to your manager and suggest or ask, "I would like to meet this goal.
伊森·埃文斯：一旦你有了这个目标，就去询问你可以如何提供帮助，按照要求做任何事情，然后回到你的经理那里建议或询问，“我想实现这个目标。
Can I keep helping you?
我可以继续帮助你吗？
What could I take on that you need that would also help me meet this goal?" And that's where you start to try to bring your two sets of aims together.
我可以承担您所需要的哪些工作来帮助我实现这一目标？”这就是你开始尝试将两套目标结合在一起的地方。
What do you need done, how can I get to my goal?
你需要做什么，我怎样才能实现我的目标？
And let's do those things together.
让我们一起做这些事情。
Ethan Evans: And then you just repeat this loop.
伊森·埃文斯：然后你只需重复这个循环。
You build trust, you build the relationship.
你建立了信任，你就建立了关系。
And with all good managers, and even a lot of moderate managers, they appreciate the help so much, they really lean into that.
对于所有优秀的管理者，甚至很多温和的管理者来说，他们都非常感谢帮助，他们真的很愿意帮助。
Lenny: I think there's two really important elements of this that you haven't even mentioned necessarily, that I think are part of the reason this works so well.
莱尼：我认为这其中有两个非常重要的因素，你甚至没有提到，我认为这是它如此有效的部分原因。
One is this forces you and your manager to identify the gaps that are keeping you from the next level, which it's often vague, and then you get to a performance review, and then your manager's like, "Ethan, you're still not good on this and this and that," and you're like, "You never told me that that's the things you're looking for for me to get promoted." So I think there's this implicit, here's what you need to work on to get to the next level, which I think is part of step four.
一是这迫使你和你的经理找出阻碍你进入下一个级别的差距，这通常是模糊的，然后你进行绩效评估，然后你的经理会说，“伊森，你仍然不擅长这个、这个、那个，”你会说，“你从来没有告诉过我，这就是你为我升职而寻找的东西。”所以我认为这是隐含的，这就是你需要努力才能达到下一个水平，我认为这是第四步的一部分。
Lenny: And then you actually did touch on this that it's important to share your goal to your manager.
莱尼：然后你确实提到了向经理分享你的目标很重要。
Here's what I want.
这就是我想要的。
I want to get promoted.
我想升职。
A lot of times they don't know that and you helping them understand, "Here's what I want, help me get there." It goes a long way.
很多时候他们不知道这一点，而你帮助他们理解，“这就是我想要的，帮助我实现它。”它有很长的路要走。
So there's a lot-
所以有很多——
Ethan Evans: Managers often fall into the trap.
伊森·埃文斯：管理者经常陷入陷阱。
They chose to become managers, so they assume one of two things about you.
他们选择成为经理，因此他们对你做出以下两件事之一的假设。
They either assume that you want to keep doing exactly what you're doing forever, just maybe make a little more money.
他们要么认为你想永远继续做你正在做的事情，也许只是多赚一点钱。
Ethan Evans: So you're an artist, you want to keep drawing forever.
伊森·埃文斯：所以你是一名艺术家，你想永远继续画画。
You're a lawyer, you want to keep writing contracts forever.
你是一名律师，你想永远继续签订合同。
Or they assume that, "Hey, I became a manager.
或者他们认为，“嘿，我成为了一名经理。
I'm very proud of my career.
我对我的职业生涯感到非常自豪。
That must be what you want."
那一定是你想要的。”
Ethan Evans: And these assumptions are natural, right?
伊森·埃文斯：这些假设很自然，对吧？
We tend to view by default that our path is great and everyone would want to be us.
我们倾向于默认认为我们的道路是伟大的，每个人都想成为我们。
Now of course, some good managers don't do that.
当然，现在一些优秀的管理者不会这样做。
But if you clarify and express your goals, you remove that ambiguity.
但如果你澄清并表达你的目标，你就消除了这种歧义。
Lenny: I actually had a period in my career where I specifically did not want to get promoted.
莱尼：实际上，在我的职业生涯中，有一段时间我特别不想升职。
I was very happy where I was, and I just wanted to keep doing this awesome IC role.
我对自己所处的位置非常满意，我只想继续扮演这个出色的 IC 角色。
Is that something at all you see where people are just like, "I'm good.
你是否看到人们会说：“我很好。
I don't need to get promoted," and then is this helpful in that in any way or is it not as big a deal?
我不需要升职，”那么这在任何方面都有帮助吗？还是没什么大不了的？
Ethan Evans: So first, I reached a point in my career where I was no longer pursuing promotion either, and I wanted to do other things.
伊森·埃文斯：首先，我在职业生涯中达到了一个阶段，不再追求晋升，而是想做其他事情。
So I've lived that myself and I've used the same loop, but I used it to go do what I wanted to say, "This is now what I want, and how do we get there?
所以我自己也经历过这种情况，并且使用了相同的循环，但我用它来做我想说的事情，“这就是我现在想要的，我们如何实现目标？
How do we create a role where I'm adding value appropriate to my level, but I'm doing this other work that's fun?" I moved into gaming and I really wanted to do that.
我们如何创造一个角色，让我可以增加适合我水平的价值，但我正在做其他有趣的工作？”我开始涉足游戏领域，我真的很想这么做。
Ethan Evans: Second, I think it is still helpful because there's something you want probably.
Ethan Evans：其次，我认为它仍然有帮助，因为你可能想要一些东西。
Maybe you want to work on different kinds of projects or maybe you want to work with a different higher performance team.
也许您想从事不同类型的项目，或者您想与不同的更高绩效团队合作。
Or maybe you want to rebalance your life and say, "Hey, I love what I'm doing, but how can I be a star performer for you but within these boundaries?"
或者，也许你想重新平衡你的生活，然后说：“嘿，我喜欢我正在做的事情，但是在这些界限之内，我怎么能成为你的明星表演者呢？”
Ethan Evans: So if you truly have the perfect job just as it is, you may not need The Magic Loop.
伊森·埃文斯：所以，如果你确实拥有一份完美的工作，你可能不需要“Magic Loop”。
But I know so few people if you're like, "Nope, there's absolutely nothing I could improve about my role."
但如果你说“不，我的角色绝对没有什么可以改进的”，那么我认识的人太少了。
Lenny: Yeah, I think that your point about your goal doesn't have to be promotion.
莱尼：是的，我认为你关于目标的观点不一定是晋升。
It could be work on a different part of the org, try something totally...
它可能在组织的不同部分工作，尝试一些完全......
Maybe transition to a new function that could be part of your goal.
也许过渡到新功能可能是您目标的一部分。
Awesome.
惊人的。
Lenny: Okay, so along the same lines of career progression, you work with a lot of senior manager types, kind of the level of L7 and one M2-ish, and you share with me that one of the most frustrating parts of their job in that specific portion of their career is they get stuck at that level and they don't move up, and it becomes really annoying, and they're not sure how to break out of that.
莱尼：好吧，沿着同样的职业发展路线，你与很多高级经理类型一起工作，比如 L7 级别和 M2 级别，你和我分享，他们在职业生涯的特定部分中最令人沮丧的部分之一是他们陷入了那个级别并且无法晋升，这变得非常烦人，他们不知道如何摆脱这个困境。
What advice you share with folks like that, that may be listening?
您与那些可能正在倾听的人分享了哪些建议？
Ethan Evans: Yeah, so it's common to get stuck there, and there are a few reasons for it.
Ethan Evans：是的，所以陷入困境是很常见的，有几个原因。
First, there are a lot of senior managers.
首先，有很多高级管理人员。
If you think of your average director, they may have six to eight reports.
如果你想想你的普通董事，他们可能有六到八份报告。
How many more directors are needed?
还需要多少名董事？
So there's a choke point.
所以有一个瓶颈。
Ethan Evans: Second, that choke point is worse in the current economy, and in the past maybe a lot of companies, Amazon, Google, apple, etc., were growing very rapidly.
伊森·埃文斯：第二，当前经济的瓶颈更加严重，过去可能很多公司，亚马逊、谷歌、苹果等，都增长得非常快。
And so it wasn't just you were waiting for some other director to leave.
所以不仅仅是你在等待其他导演离开。
The teams were getting bigger.
团队规模越来越大。
Ethan Evans: I experienced this at Amazon, where over a nine-year period I went from managing six people to 800.
Ethan Evans：我在亚马逊经历过这种情况，在九年的时间里，我管理的员工数量从 6 人增加到 800 人。
And so I went from a senior manager all the way to a vice president, and I described I was, in some sense just riding the elevator.
所以我从高级经理一路晋升为副总裁，我形容我在某种意义上只是乘坐电梯。
The elevator was going up, and as long as I managed to stay on it, I was going to arrive at vice president.
电梯正在上升，只要我能坚持下去，我就要去副总裁那里。
Ethan Evans: But the other thing that causes people to get stuck is the difference between a senior manager and a director is how you lead and the work you're doing.
伊森·埃文斯：但导致人们陷入困境的另一件事是高级经理和总监之间的区别在于领导方式和所做的工作。
And you can get as far as senior manager by being really strong in your function and being really good at getting things done.
如果你的职能非常强大并且非常善于完成工作，那么你就可以晋升为高级经理。
As a director, and as a VP beyond that, it becomes much more about influence, coordination with others, and letting go of being in all the details yourself.
作为一名董事，以及除此之外的副总裁，影响力、与他人的协调以及放弃自己关注所有细节变得更加重要。
And so senior managers really have to change some behavior.
因此，高级管理人员确实必须改变一些行为。
Ethan Evans: I often reference the book by Marshall Goldsmith, What Got You Here Won't Get You There.
伊森·埃文斯：我经常参考马歇尔·戈德史密斯的书《What Got You Here Won't Get You There》。
Not only because it's a great book classically on this problem, but because the title tells the story.
不仅因为这是一本关于这个问题的经典好书，而且因为书名讲述了这个故事。
All the great traits that got you to this one level won't get you to the next level where you're more expected to be thinking in strategic terms, thinking longer term.
所有让你达到这一水平的优秀特质并不会让你进入下一个水平，在下一个水平上，你更需要从战略角度思考，从长远考虑。
Lenny: So to someone that may be in that role today and they're not moving up, is there anything they can do?
莱尼：那么对于今天可能担任该职位但没有晋升的人来说，他们可以做些什么吗？
This point about just there's no roles for you, there's only so much you can do there, is the advice just wait until an opportunity arrives?
这一点就是没有适合你的角色，你能做的只有这么多，建议是等到机会到来吗？
Is it run this Magic Loop until something happens?
它会运行这个 Magic Loop 直到有事情发生吗？
Is there anything you can do?
你有什么可以做的吗？
Ethan Evans: I would be honest with people and say some patience is required.
伊森·埃文斯：我会诚实地告诉人们，并说需要一些耐心。
At this level, there is some notion of, do we need a director?
在这个层面上，有一些想法，我们需要一个导演吗？
Do we need a vice president?
我们需要副总统吗？
Do we have a challenge at that level that needs that person?
我们是否面临需要该人的挑战？
And so promotions at this level, I often teach have two components.
因此，在这个级别上的晋升，我经常教授有两个组成部分。
The first component is can I eat and do that job?
第一个组成部分是我可以吃饭并做这份工作吗？
Am I qualified?
我有资格吗？
Do I have the skills?
我有技能吗？
But the second piece is, do we have such a job that needs that?
但第二个问题是，我们有这样的工作吗？
Ethan Evans: However, there is a lot you can do.
伊森·埃文斯：但是，您可以做很多事情。
A lot is in your control.
很多事情都在你的掌控之中。
And what is in your control is to start practicing those next level skills.
您可以控制的是开始练习下一级技能。
Start working with your leadership on, where can I take on a strategic project?
开始与您的领导层合作，我可以在哪里开展战略项目？
How can I become more of an inventor?
我怎样才能成为一名发明家？
I teach some about how to sort of systematically be inventive.
我教一些人如何系统地发挥创造力。
It's not pure magic.
这不是纯粹的魔法。
Edison said it's 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.
爱迪生说，1%的灵感加99%的汗水。
You can learn the 99%, and the 1% isn't as hard then.
你可以学会99%，然后1%就没有那么难了。
So you start showing those next level traits.
所以你开始展示下一个层次的特征。
And as I describe it most succinctly, how do you make yourself the person who will be chosen out of the eight?
正如我最简洁地描述的那样，你如何使自己成为从八个人中被选中的人？
Ethan Evans: And you can be chosen, there are several ways to move up.
伊森·埃文斯：你可以被选中，有多种晋升的方法。
Your boss can leave or be let go.
你的老板可以离开或者被解雇。
They can be promoted to another role.
他们可以晋升到另一个角色。
But another way is I coach now, and I have several clients recently.
但另一种方式是我现在当教练，我最近有几个客户。
I was just talking to a client yesterday, her two peers were let go.
昨天我刚刚和一位客户谈话，她的两个同事被解雇了。
They were all the same level.
他们都是同一水平。
Her two peers were let go and she was given their teams.
她的两个同事被解雇了，她被分配到了他们的团队。
And she expressed that her boss had been told, "You have too many senior managers for the size of your organization.
她表示，她的老板被告知，“对于你们组织的规模来说，你们的高级管理人员太多了。
We need to do some change in the organization, clean house, and put all your people under the folks who have potential."
我们需要对组织进行一些改变，清理内部，并将所有员工都安排在有潜力的人手下。”
Ethan Evans: Well, obviously she must be one of those people, because she still has her job and has more people and more to do.
伊森·埃文斯：嗯，显然她一定是那些人中的一员，因为她仍然有她的工作，还有更多的人和更多的事情要做。
And unfortunately, her peers are shopping for new employment.
不幸的是，她的同龄人正在寻找新的工作。
So be that person, and that's where The Magic Loop comes in.
因此，成为那个人，这就是“神奇循环”的用武之地。
Be that person.
成为那个人。
Lenny: I was just talking actually to a senior PM leader who pointed out that with this kind of lean environment of a lot of flattening of orgs and a lot of layoffs, that this is becoming increasingly hard.
莱尼：我刚才实际上正在与一位高级 PM 领导交谈，他指出，在这种大量组织扁平化和大量裁员的精益环境中，这变得越来越困难。
Exactly what you're describing.
正是你所描述的。
There's just less spots, because companies are running more lean, and so you just kind of have to wait.
只是名额较少，因为公司的运营更加精简，所以你只能等待。
Lenny: I think part of this advice you just shared, which is classic do the job before you have the job makes all the sense in the world.
莱尼：我认为您刚才分享的建议中的一部分是“在获得工作之前先做好工作”，这句话在世界上非常有意义。
Because once people see that you can do it, obviously they'll feel a lot more comfortable putting you in that position.
因为一旦人们看到你能做到这一点，显然他们会觉得让你处于那个位置会更舒服。
Ethan Evans: And they'll be looking.
伊森·埃文斯：他们会寻找的。
I always remind people, as a leader, I want the best people under me I can have.
我总是提醒人们，作为一名领导者，我希望我手下有最优秀的人。
It's not that I don't wish to promote you.
并不是我不想提拔你。
If you think about my job, this helps people, right?
如果你想想我的工作，这对人们很有帮助，对吧？
I have selfish motivation to promote you.
我有自私的动机来提拔你。
A lot of people think, "The bosses there holding me down." Well, maybe some bosses are, but why wouldn't I want stronger, more capable direct reports?
很多人会想：“那里的老板压制了我。”好吧，也许有些老板是这样，但我为什么不想要更强大、更有能力的直接下属呢？
Why wouldn't I want people under me who can do more of my job?
为什么我不希望我手下的人能做更多我的工作呢？
Frankly, that's the only way I can do less of my job.
坦率地说，这是我可以减少工作量的唯一方法。
Lenny: Plus this pressure you're always getting from your reports.
莱尼：加上你总是从报告中获得这种压力。
So like, "Hey, I'm ready to get promoted, because this time"...
就像，“嘿，我已经准备好升职了，因为这一次”......
You mentioned this word inventiveness, and I was just listening to Jeff Bezos on Lex Fridman, and I don't know if you heard this, but Jeff Bezos described himself most as an inventor more than anything else that he does.
你提到了创造力这个词，我刚刚在 Lex Fridman 上听杰夫·贝索斯 (Jeff Bezos) 讲话，我不知道你是否听到过这个，但杰夫·贝索斯 (Jeff Bezos) 将自己描述为一名发明家，而不是他所做的任何其他事情。
Is that something that you think about?
这是你所考虑的事情吗？
Is that influenced by Jeff Bezos any way, that idea of being an inventor as a leader?
作为发明家作为领导者的想法是否受到杰夫·贝佐斯的影响？
Ethan Evans: I'll say a couple things about that.
伊森·埃文斯：对此我要说几件事。
First, I know you talked to my old boss, Bill Carr, who wrote Working Backwards.
首先，我知道你和我的前老板比尔·卡尔谈过，他是《逆向工作》的作者。
What I don't know is if he shared with you that after he published it, he actually realized there was a better title.
我不知道他是否与你分享，在他出版之后，他实际上意识到有一个更好的标题。
He wishes that he had called the book The Invention Machine, because what Jeff was trying to do with Amazon was create the most inventive company, the company that would systematically out-invent others.
他希望自己将这本书命名为《发明机器》，因为杰夫试图与亚马逊一起创建一家最具创造力的公司，一家能够系统性地超越其他公司的公司。
And so while Working Backwards is a great title, Bill and Jeff think they should have called it the Invention Machine.
因此，虽然“逆向工作”是一个很棒的标题，但比尔和杰夫认为他们应该将其称为“发明机器”。
Ethan Evans: When I joined Amazon, I did not think of myself as an inventor, but I saw that we had these leadership principles think big and invent and simplify that pushed on that.
伊森·埃文斯：当我加入亚马逊时，我并不认为自己是一名发明家，但我看到我们有这些领导原则，大局观、发明和简化推动了这一点。
And I said, "I'm in trouble.
我说：“我有麻烦了。
I don't know how to do this." And I sat down and thought about that.
我不知道该怎么做。”我坐下来思考这个问题。
What am I going to do?
我要做什么？
It seems like that's required.
看来这是必须的。
And I figured out how to become systematically inventive.
我想出了如何系统地发挥创造力。
So I now hold over 70 patents as one benchmark of inventiveness, and they were all created during my 15 years at Amazon.
因此，我现在拥有 70 多项专利，作为创造力的基准之一，它们都是我在亚马逊工作 15 年间创造的。
Ethan Evans: And the way I did that, inventiveness actually isn't that hard.
伊森·埃文斯：按照我的做法，创造力实际上并不那么难。
I teach about this.
我教这个。
And to invent systematically, first you do need to be somewhat of an expert in whatever area you want to invent.
为了系统地发明，首先你确实需要成为你想要发明的任何领域的专家。
So Lenny, if you and I say let's get together and we're going to invent cancer drugs, we have the problem that neither of us, as far as I know is a biologist, a doctor.
所以，莱尼，如果你和我说让我们聚在一起，我们要发明抗癌药物，那么我们面临的问题是，据我所知，我们都不是生物学家、医生。
We don't have the right background, we don't know what we're doing.
我们没有正确的背景，我们不知道自己在做什么。
So we would just be fumbling around I guess with a bathtub full of chemicals hoping.
所以我想我们只能在装满化学物质的浴缸里摸索。
It's probably not going to work out that well.
事情可能不会那么顺利。
So you have to be something of a knowledgeable expert.
所以你必须是一位知识渊博的专家。
Ethan Evans: But then the second thing people don't do is they don't spend dedicated time actually thinking.
伊森·埃文斯：但是人们不做的第二件事是他们没有花专门的时间进行实际思考。
They feel like, "Invention is just going to come to me." When I want to invent, I get away from all my devices.
他们感觉“发明即将降临到我身上”。当我想要发明时，我会摆脱所有的设备。
I go in a room with the problem I have, and I force myself to actually concentrate on what do I know and how can I invent?
我带着我所遇到的问题走进一个房间，强迫自己真正专注于我所知道的以及我如何发明？
And the most straightforward way to invent is not to somehow come up with something completely new, but instead to put together two things that exist.
最直接的发明方法不是想出一些全新的东西，而是将两个现有的东西放在一起。
Ethan Evans: And so my example of this, I have a patent I talk about a lot for a drone delivery for Amazon, but the drone doesn't fly from the warehouse.
伊森·埃文斯：我的例子是，我有一项我经常谈论的亚马逊无人机送货专利，但无人机不会从仓库起飞。
Instead, a truck with no top drives slowly around the neighborhood, and the drones go back and forth from the truck.
相反，一辆没有车顶的卡车在附近缓慢行驶，无人机在卡车上来回穿梭。
As opposed to the driver stopping at every house, you can have four or six drones hitting everything in the neighborhood.
与司机在每所房子停下来不同，你可以用四到六架无人机攻击附近的所有东西。
Ethan Evans: And the way I came up with this idea is one day I was thinking about drones and delivery, but I loved military history.
伊森·埃文斯：我想到这个想法的方式是有一天我在考虑无人机和送货，但我喜欢军事历史。
And so I was thinking also about an aircraft carrier and I was thinking, is there a way to have an aircraft carrier for drones?
所以我也在考虑航空母舰，我在想，有没有办法拥有一艘用于无人机的航空母舰？
And from that, it was very quick for the light bulb to go on and say, well, what about a truck?
从那时起，灯泡很快就亮起来并说，好吧，卡车怎么样？
Ethan Evans: And so I have this patent, and we haven't seen this become reality yet.
伊森·埃文斯：所以我拥有这项专利，但我们还没有看到这成为现实。
I'm waiting for my idea to become part of Amazon's drone delivery system, but I think ultimately it will.
我正在等待我的想法成为亚马逊无人机送货系统的一部分，但我认为最终它会的。
Lenny: That is badass.
莱尼：那真是太糟糕了。
I'm imagining returns come back to the truck.
我想象退货会回到卡车上。
We're using that rope thing that just captures them with that little hook.
我们用的是绳子，用那个小钩子就能抓住它们。
Ethan Evans: Yeah.
伊森·埃文斯：是的。
Well, there's no reason...
嗯，没有理由...
Same thing.
同样的事情。
When you want to return something as opposed to taking it to the UPS Store or whatever, you just put it on your porch, and then on your phone, on your app, maybe you take a picture of it so that the drone can recognize the box or you put it in a designated spot, and you push a button and the drone takes your return away.
当你想要退货而不是把它带到 UPS 商店或其他地方时，你只需将它放在你的门廊上，然后在你的手机上，在你的应用程序上，也许你拍一张照片，以便无人机可以识别盒子，或者你把它放在指定的位置，然后你按一个按钮，无人机就会带走你的退货。
Yes, there's no reason.
是的，没有理由。
Lenny: Can't wait for that.
莱尼：等不及了。
And it takes your dog backs in it sometimes, part of it.
有时它会让你的狗回到其中，一部分。
Ethan Evans: My dog's too heavy, thank you.
伊森·埃文斯：我的狗太重了，谢谢。
Lenny: My dog's not.
莱尼：我的狗不是。
There's an owl in our backyard that we sometimes worry he is going to come grab our dog on.
我们后院有一只猫头鹰，我们有时担心它会来抓我们的狗。
This idea of invention, this is really interesting.
这个发明的想法，这真是有趣。
I didn't plan to talk about this, but for someone like say a PM on a team that wants to get better at invention, innovation, big thinking, is there a practice you find helpful here?
我本来不打算谈论这个，但是对于像团队中的 PM 这样想要在发明、创新、大思维方面变得更好的人来说，您认为这里有什么有用的实践吗？
Is it block off two hours, get a pen and paper, and just think about the specific two adjacent things working together?
是不是要花两个小时，拿笔和纸，然后想想具体的两个相邻的事情一起工作？
Ethan Evans: So that's part of the process, is put in dedicated time.
伊森·埃文斯：所以这是这个过程的一部分，需要投入专门的时间。
The interesting thing I would say is you don't need that much time.
我想说的有趣的是你不需要那么多时间。
Two hours is great, but you only need two hours once a month.
两个小时固然很好，但每个月只需要一次两个小时。
People think invention takes all this time.
人们认为发明需要所有的时间。
The thing is once you have one good idea, it often takes years to express that.
问题是，一旦你有了一个好主意，通常需要数年时间才能表达出来。
Ethan Evans: So you had the idea to have a newsletter.
伊森·埃文斯：所以你有了制作时事通讯的想法。
I know some of the history of your newsletter.
我知道你们的时事通讯的一些历史。
You've been working on the expression of that idea for years now.
多年来你一直致力于表达这个想法。
Jeff and Amazon had ideas like, "Let's have Prime shipping." Well, Prime is still getting better and still being worked on.
杰夫和亚马逊有这样的想法：“让我们拥有 Prime 送货服务。”嗯，Prime 仍在变得更好，并且仍在开发中。
It's a 20 some year old idea.
这是一个20多年前的想法。
The Kindle a decade's old idea now still getting better.
Kindle 已经有十年的历史了，现在仍在变得更好。
Ethan Evans: So the point here is you don't need very many good ideas to be seen as tremendously inventive.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：所以这里的重点是，你不需要很多好主意就可以被视为具有巨大的创造力。
Like Elon Musk, Tesla, he can kind of dust off his hands and be like, "I am now an Edison-like inventor." So he keeps doing it, but you don't need that many inventions.
就像埃隆·马斯克、特斯拉一样，他可以掸掉双手上的灰尘，然后说：“我现在是一个爱迪生式的发明家了。”所以他一直在做，但你不需要那么多发明。
Lenny: This touches on something else Jeff Bezos shared on the podcast that most of his innovation and work is in the optimizing phase.
莱尼：这涉及到杰夫·贝索斯在播客上分享的其他内容，即他的大部分创新和工作都处于优化阶段。
It's not the here's the idea, it's the making it cheaper, and better, and faster.
这不是这个想法，而是让它变得更便宜、更好、更快。
And that's where most of the good stuff comes from.
这就是大多数好东西的来源。
In this point of Tesla, Elon had this idea, and now the hard work is actually making it scalable and cheap enough for people to use, not just an electric car.
在特斯拉这一点上，埃隆就有了这样的想法，现在的努力实际上是让它具有可扩展性并且足够便宜，以供人们使用，而不仅仅是电动汽车。
Ethan Evans: With the idea of Jeff saying that invention is really a lot of the incremental and optimization, I completely agree with that.
伊森·埃文斯：杰夫说发明实际上是大量的增量和优化，我完全同意这一点。
To invent well, you need a base idea, but then there's so much of the work is making that idea real.
要想做好发明，你需要一个基本想法，但要让这个想法成为现实，还有很多工作要做。
Ethan Evans: And again, Prime is a great example of this.
Ethan Evans：再说一次，Prime 就是一个很好的例子。
The Amazon Prime program was a great example of, okay, we want fast free shipping.
亚马逊 Prime 计划就是一个很好的例子，我们想要快速免费送货。
We want this program.
我们想要这个程序。
That was a one-time idea that they did build, but now Prime has expanded.
这是他们曾经提出的一个想法，但现在 Prime 已经扩展了。
First it was two-day in the US, then one-day in the US, now it's same day in the US.
首先是在美国两天，然后在美国一天，现在在美国是同一天。
But also they added Prime Video, Prime Music, Prime Gaming.
他们还添加了 Prime 视频、Prime 音乐、Prime 游戏。
There's actually something like 25 things you get free with Prime.
实际上，您可以通过 Prime 免费获得大约 25 种东西。
Most people have no idea, because you get free photo storage and this ongoing list.
大多数人不知道，因为您可以获得免费的照片存储和这个持续的列表。
And all of that is that incremental optimization to make it better, better, better, better.
所有这一切都是增量优化，使其变得更好、更好、更好、更好。
And of course Jeff's goal, which you probably heard him say, was to make Prime a no-brainer, to where you would be irresponsible really not to be a member.
当然，杰夫的目标，你可能听到他说过，是让 Prime 成为一个简单的选择，如果你不成为会员，那就是不负责任的。
Lenny: I know you have an awesome Jeff Bezos story that I want to get to, but before we do that, one more question along this line of career advice and progression.
莱尼：我知道你有一个很棒的杰夫·贝佐斯的故事，我想听听，但在我们这样做之前，还有一个关于职业建议和发展的问题。
So I read somewhere that you've interviewed over 2,500 people over the course of your career.
我在某处读到，您在职业生涯中采访了超过 2,500 人。
And so kind of going back to the beginning of a career, or at least getting a job, what have you found is most helpful in standing out as a candidate when you're interviewing, and essentially getting hired?
那么，回到职业生涯的开始，或者至少找到一份工作，你发现什么对你在面试时作为候选人脱颖而出并最终被录用最有帮助？
What advice do you have for people that may be going through an interview process right now?
对于现在可能正在经历面试过程的人，您有什么建议？
Ethan Evans: There's a lot of evidence that suggests that the number one and two factors in any interview are appearance and enthusiasm.
伊森·埃文斯：有很多证据表明，任何面试中的第一和第二因素都是外表和热情。
And it doesn't mean you have to be beautiful, but show up somewhere looking like you're interested in the job, not in your pajamas.
这并不意味着你必须很漂亮，但出现在某个地方，看起来像是你对这份工作感兴趣，而不是穿着睡衣。
And most importantly, be enthusiastic.
最重要的是，要有热情。
People want to work with people that want to work with them.
人们希望与愿意与他们合作的人一起工作。
So if you seem very judgmental of the company and like you have to sell me on it, you're going to turn them off.
因此，如果你看起来对这家公司非常挑剔，并且不得不向我推销它，那么你就会拒绝他们。
I look at every interview of whether or not I really want this job, I might've decided I don't want the job.
我每次面试都会看我是否真的想要这份工作，我可能已经决定不想要这份工作了。
I still want the offer.
我仍然想要这个报价。
Ethan Evans: And so I come to any interview I do leaned in and talking about how excited I am to be a part of this opportunity and what I know about the company.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：因此，我在接受任何采访时都会谈论我对成为这个机会的一部分感到多么兴奋以及我对公司的了解。
Beyond those cosmetics, the biggest thing I see particularly at higher levels is people talk about what they have done but not why it mattered.
除了这些装饰之外，我看到的最重要的事情，特别是在更高层次上，是人们谈论他们所做的事情，而不是为什么它很重要。
They don't talk about the impact.
他们不谈论影响。
Ethan Evans: See, a leader is not hiring someone to just do work.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：看，领导者雇用某人不仅仅是为了工作。
They're hiring someone because they have a problem or a need.
他们雇用某人是因为他们有问题或有需要。
And so if you can show them, "Look, here's the things I've done that have made a difference.
因此，如果你可以向他们展示，“看，这就是我所做的那些带来改变的事情。
Here's the things I've done that have helped my past employers where I've had an impact." So I didn't just do work.
以下是我所做的一些事情，这些事情帮助了我以前的雇主，让我产生了影响。”所以我不只是做工作。
That makes you a worker.
这使你成为一名工人。
Someone who has an impact is more of a leader.
有影响力的人更像是一个领导者。
Ethan Evans: And leader doesn't need to mean people manager, just a higher level, that I have done something that solve the big problem, and here's how it changed the company or customer outlook.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：领导者并不需要指职能经理，而是指更高级别的人，即我已经做了一些解决大问题的事情，这就是它如何改变公司或客户的前景。
That's what I'm looking for in an interview, is are you bringing me an understanding of the business that shows you contributed to the business, or are you just telling me how hard you worked?
这就是我在面试中寻找的内容，是您让我了解您对业务的了解，表明您对业务做出了贡献，还是只是告诉我您工作有多努力？
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
On that first piece, now that most interviews I imagine over Zoom, in terms of enthusiasm and looking professional, is there anything you've found that people may not be thinking about in those two buckets?
在第一篇文章中，既然我想象通过 Zoom 进行的大多数采访，就热情和看起来专业而言，您是否发现人们在这两个方面可能没有考虑到什么？
Ethan Evans: Yeah.
伊森·埃文斯：是的。
Show the person full-time dedication.
表现出该人全心全意的奉献精神。
So unless you really don't have any choice, don't take an interview from a car, don't have your camera off.
因此，除非你真的别无选择，否则不要在车上接受采访，也不要关闭相机。
Eye contact is still a real thing.
目光接触仍然是真实存在的。
Body language is still a real thing.
肢体语言仍然是真实存在的。
Gestures like I'm making now with my hands, they're part of your presentation.
像我现在用手所做的手势，它们是你演示的一部分。
Ethan Evans: So be fully present and try to project through the camera a little bit of I'm excited to be a part of this and I appreciate the opportunity.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：所以要全身心投入，并尝试通过镜头投射出一点点，我很高兴能参与其中，并且很珍惜这个机会。
I often tell people the best way to prep for an interview might be a good night's sleep and a pot of coffee, that being fully engaged and energetic is a huge lever.
我经常告诉人们准备面试的最好方法可能是睡个好觉和喝一壶咖啡，全神贯注和精力充沛是一个巨大的杠杆。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
And I think basically, the feedback there is don't over obsess with the content.
我认为基本上，那里的反馈不要过度迷恋内容。
There's a lot of value in just how you come across.
你给人的印象有很多价值。
Lenny: Let me tell you about a product called Arcade.
莱尼：让我告诉你一个叫做 Arcade 的产品。
Arcade is an interactive demo platform that enables teams to create polished on-brand demos in minutes.
Arcade 是一个交互式演示平台，使团队能够在几分钟内创建精美的品牌演示。
Telling the story of your product is hard, and customers want you to show them your product, not just talk about it or gate it.
讲述你的产品的故事很困难，客户希望你向他们展示你的产品，而不仅仅是谈论它或限制它。
That's why product four teams such as Atlassian, , and Retool use Arcade to tell better stories within their homepages, product change logs, emails, and documentation.
这就是为什么 Atlassian、 和 Retool 等产品四团队使用 Arcade 在其主页、产品更改日志、电子邮件和文档中讲述更好的故事。
Lenny: But don't just take my word for it.
莱尼：但不要只相信我的话。
Quantum Metric, the leading digital analytics platform created an interactive product tour library to drive more prospects.
领先的数字分析平台 Quantum Metric 创建了一个交互式产品游览库，以吸引更多潜在客户。
With Arcade, they achieved a 2x higher conversion rate for demos and saw five times more engagement than videos.
借助 Arcade，他们的演示转化率提高了 2 倍，参与度是视频的五倍。
On top of that, they built the demo 10 times faster than before.
最重要的是，他们构建演示的速度比以前快了 10 倍。
Lenny: Creating a product demo has never been easier.
Lenny：创建产品演示从未如此简单。
With browser-based recording, Arcade is the no-code solution for building personalized demos at scale.
通过基于浏览器的录制，Arcade 是用于大规模构建个性化演示的无代码解决方案。
Arcade offers product customization options, designer approved editing tools, and rich insights about how your viewers engage every step of the way.
Arcade 提供产品定制选项、设计师认可的编辑工具以及有关观众如何参与每一步的丰富见解。
Ready to tell more engaging product stories that drive results?
准备好讲述更具吸引力的产品故事来推动成果了吗？
Head to arcade.software/lenny and get 50% off your first three months.
前往 arcade.software/lenny，前三个月可享受 50% 的折扣。
That's arcade.software/lenny.
那是 arcade.software/lenny。
Lenny: Now let's take a little trip to failure corner.
莱尼：现在让我们来看看失败角落吧。
This is something that I do more and more on this podcast, talk about people's failures in their career and their learnings.
这是我在这个播客上越来越多做的事情，谈论人们在职业生涯中的失败和他们的学习。
And apparently you have a great story of failing the great Jeff Bezos and surviving to tell the tale.
显然，你有一个伟大的故事，让伟大的杰夫·贝佐斯失败，并幸存下来讲述这个故事。
Could you share that story?
你能分享一下那个故事吗？
Ethan Evans: I do.
伊森·埃文斯：我愿意。
It's both a highlight and a low light.
它既是亮点又是暗光。
So I had been at Amazon about six years.
我在亚马逊工作了大约六年。
I had become a director, and I was responsible for launching Amazon's app store.
我成为了一名总监，负责推出亚马逊的应用商店。
Ethan Evans: And so we were building an Android-based app store to go on Google phones and eventually on the Kindle tablets.
Ethan Evans：因此我们正在构建一个基于 Android 的应用程序商店，以便在 Google 手机上运行，并最终在 Kindle 平板电脑上运行。
And we got to launch day.
我们到了发射日。
And at that time, Jeff used to write a letter introducing new products.
当时，杰夫经常写一封介绍新产品的信。
He would write a letter that said, "Dear customers, today Amazon's proud to launch blah blah, blah, and it's got these great features and I hope you really enjoy it.
他会写一封信说：“亲爱的顾客，今天亚马逊很自豪地推出了等等，它有这些很棒的功能，我希望你们真的喜欢它。
Thanks Jeff." And we would take down all the sales stuff on www.amazon.com and that letter would fill the whole screen.
谢谢杰夫。”我们会删除 www.amazon.com 上的所有销售内容，这封信将填满整个屏幕。
Ethan Evans: And so he had written a Jeff letter, and this Jeff letter emphasized a particular feature of our product that he really liked.
伊森·埃文斯：所以他写了一封杰夫的信，这封杰夫的信强调了他真正喜欢的我们产品的一个特定功能。
So that something that made it a little different.
所以这让事情变得有点不同。
Ethan Evans: And that specific thing was we had a button called test drive that you could click on and it would open the app in a simulator in your web browser, so you could check out the app and interact with it before putting it on your phone.
Ethan Evans：具体的事情是，我们有一个名为“试驾”的按钮，您可以单击它，它将在网络浏览器的模拟器中打开该应用程序，这样您就可以在将其安装到手机上之前查看该应用程序并与其进行交互。
So he thought this was really cool and he was all about it.
所以他认为这真的很酷，而且他也很感兴趣。
Ethan Evans: Well, my team had built all this technology.
伊森·埃文斯：嗯，我的团队已经开发了所有这些技术。
We had test drive working.
我们进行了试驾工作。
It was kind of a hard piece of technology if you think about simulating any of thousands of arbitrary apps.
如果您考虑模拟数千个任意应用程序中的任何一个，那么这就是一项困难的技术。
And we worked all night to launch it, and it wasn't quite working at 6:00 AM.
我们花了一整晚的时间来启动它，但到了早上 6:00 就还没有完全正常工作。
We were still debugging.
我们还在调试。
Ethan Evans: Now you know engineers very well.
Ethan Evans：现在你对工程师非常了解了。
And I'm sure most of your listeners know about engineers, even if that's not their discipline.
我相信大多数听众都了解工程师，即使这不是他们的学科。
We always think we're this close to finding the last bug.
我们总是认为我们已经很接近找到最后一个错误了。
Ethan Evans: So about 6:15 AM, I get a message from Jeff that says, "Hey, I woke up, where's the letter?" Because it was supposed to go live at 6:00 AM, right after the markets in New York would've opened at 9:00 AM Eastern.
伊森·埃文斯：早上 6 点 15 分左右，我收到杰夫发来的一条消息，上面写着：“嘿，我醒了，信在哪里？”因为它应该在上午 6:00 上线，就在纽约市场于东部时间上午 9:00 开盘之后。
And he says, "Where's the letter?" And I write him back and I say, "Well, we're working on a few problems." And what I'm thinking in my head is, "Get in the shower, get in the shower.
他说：“信在哪里？”我给他回信说：“好吧，我们正在解决一些问题。”我脑子里想的是，“去洗澡，去洗澡。
I just need 20 minutes, get in the shower."
我只需要20分钟，去洗澡吧。”
Lenny: For Jeff to get in the shower.
莱尼：让杰夫去洗澡。
Ethan Evans: Yeah.
伊森·埃文斯：是的。
And 30 seconds later, I have an email back that says, "What problems?" And at this point I have to start explaining, and I end up explaining that we're having a problem with a database, and we're debugging this database problem.
30 秒后，我收到一封回复电子邮件，上面写着“什么问题？”此时我必须开始解释，最后我解释说我们的数据库有问题，我们正在调试这个数据库问题。
And he's like, "Wait, there's a database in your design?
他说：“等等，你的设计中有一个数据库吗？
We're trying to eliminate all Oracle databases and move to AWS.
我们正在尝试消除所有 Oracle 数据库并迁移到 AWS。
Why do you even have this?" And he is just getting more and more frustrated and angry.
你怎么还有这个？”他变得越来越沮丧和愤怒。
Ethan Evans: And he starts copying in my boss, and my boss's boss who's with Jeff Wilke, the CEO of retail.
伊森·埃文斯：他开始抄袭我的老板，以及我老板的老板，他是零售业首席执行官杰夫·威尔克的同事。
And they start asking me questions.
他们开始问我问题。
And it's just this snowballing, but 7:30 in the morning, Jeff is clearly angry.
就这样滚雪球一样，但早上7点30分，杰夫显然很生气。
And there's this list of other people waking up and feeling like, "Well Jeff is angry, so my job is to be even more angry," and it's just raining in on me.
还有一些其他人醒来后感觉就像，“好吧，杰夫很生气，所以我的工作就是变得更生气”，这就像雨点一样落在我身上。
Ethan Evans: So what did I do?
伊森·埃文斯：那我做了什么？
The interesting thing is what do you do when the future richest man in the world is mad at you?
有趣的是，当未来的世界首富对你生气时，你会怎么做？
He wasn't quite richest man in the world yet, but he was headed there.
他还不是世界上最富有的人，但他正在向那里迈进。
Ethan Evans: So the first thing I did was I owned it.
伊森·埃文斯：所以我做的第一件事就是拥有它。
I said, "Yes, it's not working.
我说：“是的，这不起作用。
It's my fault.
这是我的错。
I will deal with it." I took ownership.
我会处理的。”我取得了所有权。
And the second thing I did was start updating him very proactively and saying, "Here's where we are." 8:00 AM, "This is exactly where we are.
我做的第二件事就是开始非常主动地向他通报最新情况，并说：“这就是我们现在的情况。”上午 8:00，“这正是我们所处的位置。
This is what we're going to do and the next hour, and this is when you'll get your next update.
这就是我们接下来一小时要做的事情，也是您收到下一次更新的时间。
I will update you again at 9:00 AM, so here's our plan."
我将在上午 9:00 再次向您通报最新情况，这是我们的计划。”
Ethan Evans: And even though Jeff had sort of lost trust in me, like it's down, and it's not right, and I'm mad, given that he agreed with the plan, he was willing to give me 60 minutes.
伊森·埃文斯：尽管杰夫对我有点失去了信任，就像事情失败了一样，这是不对的，而且我很生气，鉴于他同意这个计划，他愿意给我 60 分钟的时间。
And then I would update him again and say, "Okay, this is what we've done and this is what we're going to do, and we'll update you again at 10:00 AM." So I was buying life one hour at a time.
然后我会再次向他更新最新消息并说：“好吧，这就是我们已经做的，这就是我们将要做的，我们将在上午 10:00 再次向您更新最新消息。”所以我一次一小时地购买生命。
Ethan Evans: Now the other thing I did, and this is a good thing about Amazon, as more and more leaders got copied into this angry thread, they started reaching out in back channel and saying, "We've all been under Jeff's Eye of Sauron, we know it's miserable.
伊森·埃文斯：现在我做了另一件事，这对亚马逊来说是一件好事，随着越来越多的领导者被复制到这个愤怒的帖子中，他们开始在秘密渠道中伸出援手并说：“我们都在杰夫的索伦之眼下，我们知道这很悲惨。
What can we do to help?" And essentially Andy Jassy's organization, which was AWS at that time, and his CTO, a guy named Werner Vogels said, "You're having a database problem, let's get you some principal engineers from the AWS database team."
我们能提供什么帮助吗？”本质上，Andy Jassy 的组织（当时是 AWS）和他的首席技术官（Werner Vogels）说：“你遇到了数据库问题，让我们从 AWS 数据库团队为你找一些首席工程师。”
Ethan Evans: And these principal engineers showed up at 9:00 AM roughly, and they looked at our design.
Ethan Evans：这些首席工程师大约在上午 9:00 出现，他们查看了我们的设计。
We had made some fundamental mistakes in our database usage and they said, "It's too complicated to fix this.
我们在数据库使用中犯了一些根本性错误，他们说：“修复这个问题太复杂了。
We're just going to give you 500 AWS machines so that your crappy design will run anyway.
我们只会给你 500 台 AWS 机器，这样你蹩脚的设计无论如何都能运行。
That's the immediate fix." And I'm like, "Okay, well I guess if you have 500 databases lying around because you're AWS, it's a great solution," and that's what they did.
这就是立即解决的办法。”我想，“好吧，我想如果你有 500 个数据库，因为你是 AWS，那么这是一个很好的解决方案，”他们就是这么做的。
Ethan Evans: So the next step is we fixed the problem.
伊森·埃文斯：所以下一步我们要解决这个问题。
A bunch of us worked together very hard to get the problem all fixed.
我们一群人一起努力解决问题。
Now it took all day, and Jeff was still frustrated because the opportunity to sort of control the messaging and the media by having his letter up had passed.
现在花了一整天的时间，杰夫仍然感到沮丧，因为通过公开他的信来控制信息和媒体的机会已经过去了。
People had noticed our launch and the articles had been written, and so Jeff was still very mad.
人们已经注意到我们的发布并且文章已经写好了，所以杰夫仍然很生气。
Ethan Evans: So we fixed the problem, but Jeff now had no trust in us.
伊森·埃文斯：所以我们解决了问题，但杰夫现在不信任我们了。
The weekend went by.
周末过去了。
He was using the system looking for bugs because he is like, "This team's not reliable now.
他正在使用该系统寻找错误，因为他说，“这个团队现在不可靠。
Ethan's not reliable.
伊森不可靠。
I better check it myself." So you have the CEO checking on you.
我最好亲自检查一下。”所以你有首席执行官在检查你。
Ethan Evans: And he found a problem and emailed me like Saturday night at 9:00 like, "I was doing this and it broke." And luckily I was able to tell him exactly what happened by 9:30.
Ethan Evans：他发现了一个问题，并在周六晚上 9:00 给我发了一封电子邮件，比如“我正在做这个，但它坏了。”幸运的是，我能够在 9 点 30 分之前准确地告诉他发生了什么。
Anyway, the next part of the story is that following week, I had a meeting with him on another topic.
不管怎样，故事的下一部分是接下来的一周，我与他就另一个话题进行了会面。
Ethan Evans: So I was part of this small group that was trying to figure out how to build a competing browser.
Ethan Evans：所以我是这个小组的一员，该小组试图找出如何构建一个竞争性浏览器。
You may not remember, but Amazon had a browser called Silk for a while.
您可能不记得了，亚马逊有一段时间有一款名为 Silk 的浏览器。
And I was invited to this meeting, but I wasn't a critical participant.
我被邀请参加这次会议，但我并不是一个关键的参与者。
So you may know this idea from Scrum where they say some people are pigs and some are chickens, and the chickens are sort of observers.
所以你可能从 Scrum 中知道了这个想法，他们说有些人是猪，有些人是鸡，而鸡是观察者。
I was a chicken in this meeting, and that turns out to be a great analogy because I was thinking, should I chicken out and not go?
在这次会议上我是胆小鬼，事实证明这是一个很好的比喻，因为我在想，我应该胆怯而不去吗？
I could skip this meeting with the CEO who's angry at me.
我可以跳过这次与对我生气的首席执行官的会议。
But when I had that thought, I realized if I can't face the CEO, I'd better pack my desk.
但当我有了这个想法时，我意识到如果我不能面对首席执行官，我最好收拾好我的办公桌。
That's the end.
就这样结束了。
Ethan Evans: So I went to this meeting early, and Jeff always sat in the same chair, so I knew where he would sit when he came in.
伊森·埃文斯：所以我很早就参加了这次会议，杰夫总是坐在同一张椅子上，所以我知道他进来时会坐在哪里。
So I sat down right next to his chair and I thought, "I don't know, let's find out."
所以我坐在他的椅子旁边，我想：“我不知道，让我们找出答案。”
Ethan Evans: And so the meeting goes by, and of course in my mind Jeff is totally ignoring me, not even looking at me.
伊森·埃文斯：会议就这样过去了，当然，在我看来，杰夫完全无视我，甚至没有看我一眼。
But I think that's just me projecting, because remember I wasn't central to the meeting.
但我认为这只是我的预测，因为请记住我并不是会议的核心。
Ethan Evans: So at the end of the meeting, everybody gets up to leave.
伊森·埃文斯：所以在会议结束时，每个人都起身离开。
He turns and looks at me and says, "So how are you doing?
他转过身来看着我说：“你怎么样？
I bet it's been a hard week." And I thought, "Oh, okay, we're going to talk." And I said, "Yeah," I just sort of answered him with, "Of course it's been hard, but here's what we're doing and here's what we're going to do in the future." And we had a very human conversation.
我敢打赌这将是艰难的一周。”我想，“哦，好吧，我们要谈谈。”我说，“是的，”我只是回答他，“当然这很困难，但这就是我们正在做的事情，这就是我们将来要做的事情。”我们进行了一次非常人性化的谈话。
And I didn't believe Jeff would've forgotten that I let him down, but it was clear he had forgiven it.
我不相信杰夫会忘记我让他失望了，但很明显他已经原谅了。
Ethan Evans: So I was still going to have to, as it turns out, re-earn his trust.
伊森·埃文斯：所以事实证明，我仍然必须重新赢得他的信任。
But the thing I did that's key for people to learn from is it's really easy to flame.
但我所做的事情对人们来说至关重要，那就是它很容易被点燃。
He had been flaming me, writing angry emails.
他一直在攻击我，写愤怒的电子邮件。
Angry emails are easy.
愤怒的电子邮件很容易。
Sitting three feet from someone and being angry with them face-to-face is hard.
坐在离某人三英尺远的地方，面对面对他们生气是很困难的。
And when faced with, I can either start ranting at this person who reports to me, or I can say something nice, he chose to say something nice, and that rebuilt our relationship.
当面对时，我可以开始对这个向我汇报的人咆哮，或者我可以说一些好话，他选择说一些好话，然后重建了我们的关系。
Ethan Evans: So the end of the story is two years later, I was promoted to vice president.
伊森·埃文斯：所以故事的结局是两年后，我晋升为副总裁。
So even though I had failed the CEO on this very public launch where he was very definitely mad at me, I re-earned the trust, I showed I had learned the lessons of how to launch more reliably without outages, and I was promoted.
因此，尽管我在这次非常公开的发布中让首席执行官失望了，他肯定对我很生气，但我重新赢得了信任，我表明我已经学到了如何在不中断的情况下更可靠地发布的教训，并且我得到了晋升。
Ethan Evans: And so I share that story because I think what I want people to understand is if I can get away with publicly failing one of the richest and most famous inventors on earth, and then get promoted and finish my career at Amazon very successfully, you can dig out of any hole.
伊森·埃文斯：所以我分享这个故事是因为我认为我想让人们理解的是，如果我能够公开失败地球上最富有、最著名的发明家之一，然后获得晋升并非常成功地完成我在亚马逊的职业生涯，那么你就可以摆脱任何困境。
You just have to manage it right.
你只需要正确管理它。
Lenny: That is an amazing story.
莱尼：那是一个了不起的故事。
So there's a lot of lessons that I want to pull on here.
所以我想在这里吸取很多教训。
One is just if you get caught in a situation like this where something completely fails, what I took down as you were talking, one is admit, yes, this is a huge problem, own it.
一是如果你陷入这样的情况，某些事情完全失败了，我在你说话时记下的内容，一是承认，是的，这是一个大问题，承认它。
This is like, don't try to deflect.
这就像，不要试图转移注意力。
Lenny: Two is the way I describe what you did here, is something I call prioritizing and communicating, where you prioritize, "Here's what we need to do," and then communicate.
莱尼：我描述你在这里所做的事情的方式有两种，我称之为优先排序和沟通，你优先考虑“这是我们需要做的”，然后进行沟通。
"Here's our priorities." And I love that you have this every hour, "Here's the latest, here's the latest." So make people understand you are on it and you'll continue to keep them updated.
“这是我们的优先事项。”我喜欢你每小时都会收到这样的消息，“这是最新的，这是最新的。”因此，要让人们知道您正在参与其中，并且您将继续向他们通报最新情况。
I imagine one of the worst fears is I have no idea what's happening here.
我想最担心的事情之一就是我不知道这里发生了什么。
I'm going to go in and start micromanaging.
我要进去开始微观管理。
Ethan Evans: You're exactly right.
伊森·埃文斯：你说得完全正确。
I'm trying to hold off micromanagement.
我正在努力阻止微观管理。
I'm trying to give them, "Okay, I believe with this and I can wait an hour," and then I can wait an another hour because that team seems to be on it.
我试图告诉他们，“好吧，我相信这一点，我可以等一个小时”，然后我可以再等一个小时，因为那个团队似乎正在参与其中。
So I'm trying to rebuild trust one hour at a time, and avoid having three or four levels of management all come in and start helping.
因此，我试图一次一小时地重建信任，并避免让三四个级别的管理层全部介入并开始提供帮助。
Lenny: Then I love this other piece of advice of meet them in person, try to take it offline essentially, which I know you did later.
莱尼：那么我喜欢另外一条建议，即亲自与他们见面，尝试本质上离线进行，我知道你后来也这么做了。
But that's such a good point that it's hard to be as mad, and angry, and flamey in person.
但这是一个很好的观点，以至于我们很难亲自生气、愤怒和愤怒。
People are just going to be like, "Okay, I get it.
人们只会说：“好吧，我明白了。
Let's try to figure this out." Amazing.
让我们试着解决这个问题。”惊人的。
Is there anything else?
还有别的吗？
Those are the three that I took away.
这三个是我带走的。
Just like if you're caught in that situation in the moment, is there anything else that you found to be really helpful?
就像如果你现在陷入这种情况，你发现还有什么真正有帮助的吗？
Ethan Evans: I mean, work hard and fast, right?
伊森·埃文斯：我的意思是，努力而快速地工作，对吗？
You do have to fix the problem.
你必须解决这个问题。
My team had been up all night.
我的团队彻夜未眠。
I had to start sending people home to sleep in shifts.
我不得不开始让人们轮流回家睡觉。
We had to pull in all this help.
我们必须吸收所有这些帮助。
And so it was a very hard weekend.
所以这是一个非常艰难的周末。
Ethan Evans: When you have a mistake, it's on you to pull out the stops, even if it's uncomfortable to recover from it.
伊森·埃文斯：当你犯了错误时，你有责任全力以赴，即使从错误中恢复过来会很不舒服。
And again, this is not the time to be like, "Well, it's the weekend now, and my team, we'll hit it Monday." I'd have been out the door so fast, I would've had the comic Wile E.
再说一次，现在不是说“好吧，现在是周末了，我的团队，我们将在周一完成任务”的时候。我会这么快就出门，我就会看到漫画《怀尔E》了。
Coyote skid marks as I bumped down the street.
当我在街上颠簸时，土狼留下了刹车痕迹。
So I would say that's important.
所以我想说这很重要。
It's part of showing ownership.
这是展示所有权的一部分。
Lenny: The other part of this is something I went through for a while when I was starting to become a more senior leader is I had a lot of imposter syndrome, and this fear that if I messed up, everything would crumble.
莱尼：另一方面，当我开始成为一名更高级的领导者时，我经历了一段时间，我有很多冒名顶替综合症，担心如果我搞砸了，一切都会崩溃。
People would see that I don't actually know what I'm doing, and I'm not really ready for this level of seniority.
人们会发现我实际上并不知道自己在做什么，而且我还没有真正准备好担任这种级别的资历。
And so there's this fear of one big mistake, it's over.
所以人们担心会犯一个大错误，一切都结束了。
Clearly this was an example of a huge mistake and it was not over for you.
显然，这是一个巨大错误的例子，而且对你来说还没有结束。
Is there any lessons there that you take away of you can mess up and still do well, even if it's this level of mistake?
有没有什么教训可以让你吸取教训，即使犯了这种程度的错误，你仍然可以做得很好？
Ethan Evans: I think a lot of people in my position would've quit.
伊森·埃文斯：我认为很多处于我位置的人都会辞职。
They would've let the shame...
他们会让耻辱...
I was just a little bit bullheaded where I'm like, "Yeah, I messed up.
我只是有点固执，我会说：“是的，我搞砸了。
But I know I'm still a good person and a good worker.
但我知道我仍然是一个好人，一个好工人。
Yes, I made a mistake, but I'm going to move on." Part of the story I haven't told that you might enjoy is I mentioned that Jeff Wilke was Jeff's number two at that point.
是的，我犯了一个错误，但我会继续前进。”我没有告诉你可能会喜欢的故事的一部分是我提到杰夫威尔克当时是杰夫的第二号人物。
Jeff Bezos, number two person, and he was my skip level.
杰夫·贝索斯（Jeff Bezos），第二号人物，他是我的跳级。
Ethan Evans: Well, during this process, he came physically into our offices and he wanted to talk to me, and my manager who was vice president said, "Hey Jeff, this is my team.
伊森·埃文斯：嗯，在这个过程中，他亲自来到我们的办公室，想和我谈谈，我的副总裁经理说，“嘿，杰夫，这是我的团队。
I own it.
我拥有它。
If you have any criticism, say it to me.
如果您有任何批评，请告诉我。
You don't mean to talk to my team." And Jeff Wilke said to my boss, whose name was Paul, "Paul, that's excellent leadership.
你不想和我的团队说话。”杰夫威尔克对我的老板保罗说：“保罗，这是出色的领导力。
I really appreciate what you're doing.
我真的很欣赏你所做的事情。
Please step out of the way.
请让开。
I want to talk to Ethan.
我想和伊森谈谈。
You're doing a great job, Paul.
你做得很好，保罗。
Now step aside." And then he kind of read me the riot act.
现在退到一边去。”然后他给我读了防暴法案。
Ethan Evans: And the rest of that funny story is I was so happy with how well my meeting with Jeff Bezos went, I patted myself on the back and like, "I'm going to go face Jeff Wilke now.
伊森·埃文斯：这个有趣的故事的其余部分是，我对与杰夫·贝索斯的会面进行得如此顺利感到非常高兴，我拍拍自己的背说，“我现在要去面对杰夫·威尔克了。
I'm going to schedule a meeting with him and do the same thing.
我将安排与他会面并做同样的事情。
I've got this down."
我已经把这个记下来了。”
Ethan Evans: So I go to meet with Jeff Wilke, figuring I'm going to run the same playbook.
伊森·埃文斯：所以我去见杰夫·威尔克，认为我将采用同样的策略。
I'm going to look him in the eye and all will be forgiven.
我会看着他的眼睛，一切都会被原谅。
And Jeff Wilke looks at me and says, "Ethan, when you launched this, did you know you were gambling with the result?
杰夫·威尔克看着我说：“伊森，当你发起这个项目时，你知道你是在拿结果赌博吗？
Did you know it might not work?" And I said, "Yes.
你知道这可能行不通吗？”我说：“是的。
We had a media commitment to launch on that day, and I thought shooting for the date was more important than perfect certainty."
我们有媒体承诺在那天推出，我认为拍摄日期比完全确定性更重要。”
Ethan Evans: And he said, "Well, two things.
伊森·埃文斯：他说：“嗯，有两件事。
First, you were wrong.
首先，你错了。
You were wrong to prioritize date over our reputation.
你把日期看得比我们的声誉更重要是错误的。
You let Amazon down in public and that was a mistake." He said, "Second though, at least you knew you were gambling.
你在公开场合让亚马逊失望了，这是一个错误。”他说：“不过，第二，至少你知道你在赌博。
If you hadn't known you were gambling, we'd be discussing your departure." And I'm like, "Okay." Here I thought I was rolling in this meeting like I'm going to run my relationship playbook.
如果你不知道自己在赌博，我们就会讨论你的离开。”我说：“好吧。”在这里，我以为我正在参加这次会议，就像我要运行我的关系剧本一样。
And he's evaluating whether or not to keep me.
他正在评估是否要留下我。
Ethan Evans: The bullheadedness is even after he had told me he had been considering firing me, I'm like, "Well he isn't.
伊森·埃文斯：顽固是在他告诉我他一直在考虑解雇我之后，我就想，“好吧，他不是。
So I'm just going to go forward." And a lot of that stubbornness of sure I made a mistake, but I'm not going to live in shame about it, I think is what people can take away.
所以我要继续前进。”很多固执肯定是我犯了错误，但我不会为此感到羞耻，我认为这是人们可以带走的。
I think a lot of people feel they're more dead in the water than they are.
我想很多人都觉得自己在水里比在水里更死。
Ethan Evans: Because everybody makes mistakes, right?
伊森·埃文斯：因为每个人都会犯错误，对吧？
I mean Jeff and Fire Phone, that'll be an albatross around his neck.
我指的是 Jeff 和 Fire Phone，这将成为他脖子上的负担。
Jeff and Fire Phone will be a phrase of anybody who knows Amazon for the rest of his life.
Jeff 和 Fire Phone 将成为任何了解亚马逊余生的人的口头禅。
Lenny: Yeah, we talked about it on the Working Backwards podcast, and why didn't Working Backwards work for the Fire Phone, we talked about it.
Lenny：是的，我们在“向后工作”播客上讨论过，为什么“向后工作”不适用于 Fire Phone，我们也讨论过。
I love that these quotes and lines are so seared in your brain.
我喜欢这些引言和台词在你的大脑中如此烙印。
You can remember it like word for word exactly what-
你可以逐字逐句地记住它——
Ethan Evans: Well, I've relived that moment many times.
伊森·埃文斯：嗯，我已经多次经历过那个时刻。
Lenny: And then just along the lines of working your way out of the hole, is essentially what you did just succeed for two years and do great, and that was the key there?
莱尼：然后，沿着努力走出困境的路线，本质上就是你在两年内取得成功并做得很好，这就是关键？
Ethan Evans: No, I think I did have to learn.
伊森·埃文斯：不，我想我确实必须学习。
I've always been sort of an operational cowboy, meaning I like to go fast and loose.
我一直是一个行动派牛仔，这意味着我喜欢快速而放松。
I prioritize speed, and I really had to step back and say, "Okay, Amazon at this level and scale doesn't like that." So I've taught myself a new phrase which was fear the New York Times headline.
我优先考虑速度，我真的不得不退后一步说：“好吧，亚马逊在这个水平和规模上不喜欢这样。”所以我自学了一个新短语，那就是害怕《纽约时报》的头条新闻。
Be aware that if Amazon is down, it goes up on every news website immediately.
请注意，如果亚马逊宕机，它会立即在每个新闻网站上上线。
And so if Amazon has some kind of mistake, it's on Wall Street Journal and CNN.
因此，如果亚马逊犯了某种错误，那是在《华尔街日报》和 CNN 上。
Ethan Evans: And so as a leader, I had to think, is what I'm doing going to generate a New York Times headline?
伊森·埃文斯：作为一名领导者，我必须思考，我所做的事情会成为《纽约时报》的头条新闻吗？
Because if it is, I'd better be really careful.
因为如果是的话，我最好要非常小心。
And that's what I taught myself is you can't be paralyzed, but I taught my whole team, we don't want to be in the New York Times for the wrong thing.
这就是我告诉自己的，你不能瘫痪，但我也教导我的整个团队，我们不想因为错误的事情而出现在《纽约时报》上。
And that was the lesson
这就是教训
Lenny: Along the lines of lessons, last question here, what's something that you took away from the way you approached it that you should have changed or should have done differently, that you've done differently since?
莱尼：按照课程的思路，最后一个问题是，你从你处理问题的方式中学到了什么，你应该改变或应该采取不同的做法，从那以后你就采取了不同的做法？
Obviously don't...
显然不...
You mentioned this idea of don't promise a date that you're not that certain you're going to hit.
你提到了这样的想法：不要承诺一个你不太确定会实现的约会。
I guess is there anything along those lines?
我想有类似的事情吗？
Ethan Evans: I have two things here.
伊森·埃文斯：我这里有两件事。
First, Amazon loved in the past, they loved surprise launches.
首先，亚马逊过去喜欢惊喜发布。
They love the idea of we're going to be quiet, quiet, quiet.
他们喜欢我们要安静、安静、安静的想法。
Because basically it was a reaction I think to Microsoft where they felt Microsoft always talked about what was coming and then pushed the dates back.
因为我认为这基本上是对微软的反应，他们觉得微软总是谈论即将发生的事情，然后推迟日期。
And so there was this whole thing about vaporware.
于是就有了关于蒸汽软件的整个事情。
And Amazon wanted to be the other way, which is we won't say anything and then it will just be there.
亚马逊想采取另一种方式，即我们什么也不说，然后它就在那里。
The problem I came to say is the biggest thing I learned with surprise launches is that you're surprised by what doesn't work.
我要说的问题是，我从意外发布中学到的最重要的一点是，你会对不起作用的东西感到惊讶。
Ethan Evans: And so I shifted the approach to let's do a lot of beta testing.
Ethan Evans：所以我改变了方法，让我们进行大量的 beta 测试。
We always, even if others don't agree quite and say, "You're right, we're not going to have a surprise launch." Some of our beta testers, even if they sign NDAs are going to leak.
即使其他人不太同意，我们总是会说：“你是对的，我们不会出人意料地发布产品。”我们的一些 Beta 测试人员即使签署了保密协议也会泄露。
And that's a better outcome than launching something that doesn't work.
这比推出不起作用的东西更好。
That's one lesson.
这是一课。
Ethan Evans: The other lesson is this thing that broke in front of Jeff Bezos, ultimately it was a new college graduate engineer who wrote that code.
伊森·埃文斯：另一个教训是杰夫·贝佐斯面前发生的事情，最终是一位刚毕业的大学工程师编写了该代码。
And he had been left alone to write part of our user interface, but he had written it in such a way that it didn't scale.
他独自一人编写了我们的用户界面的一部分，但他编写的方式无法扩展。
Now we didn't give him any help or oversight.
现在我们没有给他任何帮助或监督。
We left him on his own, because we were busy focusing on other pieces of the problem.
我们让他独自一人，因为我们正忙于解决问题的其他部分。
Ethan Evans: And shortly after the disaster, he left the company.
伊森·埃文斯：灾难发生后不久，他离开了公司。
And the mistake I made was not reaching out to him and really reassuring him of, "Yes, you wrote the bug, but that's not on you.
我犯的错误是没有联系他并真正让他放心，“是的，你写了这个错误，但这不是你的责任。
The system failed you and we don't see you.
系统让你失望了，我们看不到你。
Bugs happen."
错误会发生。”
Ethan Evans: So the thing I regret in this whole thing is not realizing that even though no one in the team ever yelled at him or whatever, he knew it was his bug, and he obviously saw me and others sort of taking a beating.
伊森·埃文斯：所以我对整件事感到遗憾的是没有意识到，尽管团队中没有人对他大喊大叫或其他什么，但他知道这是他的错误，而且他显然看到我和其他人受到了打击。
And so he left, and I wish he hadn't done that.
于是他就离开了，我希望他没有这么做。
And I wish more than that I had stepped in.
我更希望自己能够介入。
I didn't realize what he was feeling.
我不明白他的感受。
Lenny: It's interesting, the lesson there isn't catch that person sooner, and notice these links in the chain that may break.
莱尼：这很有趣，教训是不能尽早抓住那个人，并注意链条中可能断裂的这些环节。
But it's more just be there for that human that have this challenge, that people may not be focusing on.
但更重要的是，人们可能不会关注面临这一挑战的人。
Ethan Evans: Because we lost a good person, and he probably felt very bad about it.
伊森·埃文斯：因为我们失去了一个好人，他可能对此感到非常难过。
And we all feel bad when we make mistakes.
当我们犯错误时，我们都会感到难过。
That can't be prevented.
这是无法阻止的。
But he felt undue responsibility I think, and that I really regret.
但我认为他感到了不应有的责任，我真的很遗憾。
Lenny: This is actually a really good example of ownership.
莱尼：这实际上是所有权的一个很好的例子。
You mentioned this term ownership and that connects to...
您提到了所有权这个术语，它与……有关。
Amazon has these leadership principles.
亚马逊有这些领导原则。
I think there's 14 of them.
我认为有 14 个。
One of them is around ownership.
其中之一是围绕所有权。
And apparently you helped craft the actual language for that principle, which I think is a huge deal with Amazon.
显然，你帮助为这一原则制定了实际的语言，我认为这对亚马逊来说是一件大事。
I imagine very few people have a say over how to define, and describe, and say these principles.
我想很少有人对如何定义、描述和说出这些原则有发言权。
Could you just talk about this principle that you contributed to, how it came to be that you helped actually write it?
您能谈谈您所贡献的这个原则吗？您是如何帮助实际编写它的？
Ethan Evans: Amazon is now kind of on its fourth version in my mind, maybe there's more.
伊森·埃文斯：在我看来，亚马逊现在已经是第四个版本了，也许还有更多。
But its fourth major revision of its leadership principles over its 25 plus year history.
但在其 25 年多的历史中，它对其领导原则进行了第四次重大修订。
Ethan Evans: And when it was going from version one to version two, Jeff and his leadership team sat down together.
伊森·埃文斯：当从第一版转到第二版时，杰夫和他的领导团队坐在一起。
And actually in version one, there were three different lists.
实际上，在第一版中，存在三个不同的列表。
They were leadership principles and core values, and something else I don't remember.
它们是领导原则和核心价值观，还有一些我不记得的东西。
And they were like, "Three lists is stupid.
他们说，“三份清单很愚蠢。
Let's make one list."
让我们列一个清单。”
Ethan Evans: Well ownership, the term had been a part of one of those lists, but when they merged everything, they took it out.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：所有权这个词曾经是其中一个列表的一部分，但是当他们合并所有内容时，他们将其删除了。
And this guy Jeff Wilke I mentioned, the number two and the leader of retail, he brought a bunch of us a bunch of his directors.
我提到的杰夫·威尔克（Jeff Wilke）是零售业的二号人物和领导者，他给我们带来了一群人，还有他的董事。
He brought the proposed list to us in a meeting and said, "Hey, this is the proposed new version, do you have any comment?" And we all sat around and talked and said, "Where's ownership?
他在一次会议上向我们带来了拟议的清单，并说：“嘿，这是拟议的新版本，您有什么意见吗？”我们大家围坐在一起讨论，“所有权在哪里？
Ownership is missing." So we told him, he said, "Look, ownership is missing.
所有权缺失了。”所以我们告诉他，他说：“看，所有权消失了。
We think it should be there." And he said, "Well, why don't you propose a draft?"
我们认为它应该在那里。”他说：“那么，你为什么不提出一份草案呢？”
Ethan Evans: And so about a half dozen of us sat around and roughed out a draft of how we felt ownership should be written.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：我们大约有六个人围坐在一起，草拟了一份我们认为应该如何书写所有权的草稿。
And I proposed these six words, which are, "An owner never says that's not my job." Maybe that's seven words.
我提出了这六个字，那就是“业主永远不会说那不是我的工作”。也许就是七个字。
Ethan Evans: So I propose this specific language as a part of it and we sent off this draft.
伊森·埃文斯：所以我建议将这种特定语言作为其中的一部分，然后我们发送了这份草案。
And months go by, we hear nothing.
几个月过去了，我们什么也没听到。
And then one day the leadership principles are announced and ownership is back in.
然后有一天，领导原则被宣布，所有权又回来了。
It's been modified, but that, "An owner never says that's not my job," is a part of the leadership principle, and it's remained to this debt.
它已经被修改了，但是“老板永远不会说这不是我的工作”是领导原则的一部分，并且它仍然是这笔债务的一部分。
Ethan Evans: And what I love about that is because Amazon has one and a half million employees who live by these leadership principles, it's probably the most impactful thing I've ever written.
伊森·埃文斯：我喜欢这一点是因为亚马逊有一百五十万名员工遵循这些领导原则，这可能是我写过的最有影响力的东西。
Lenny: Wow.
莱尼：哇。
So those seven words are the most impactful thing you've ever written.
所以这七个字是你写过的最有影响力的东西。
I love that and I totally get that.
我喜欢这一点，我完全明白这一点。
I'm looking at the principles right now and it comes right at the end of that principle.
我现在正在研究这些原则，它就在该原则的最后。
We'll link to the 14 leadership principles.
我们将链接到 14 项领导原则。
Is there another principle that you really love or one or two?
还有其他或一两个你真正喜欢的原则吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's probably hard to pick your favorites.
可能很难选出你最喜欢的。
Ethan Evans: I'm a huge proponent of bias for action.
伊森·埃文斯：我是行动偏见的大力支持者。
Bias for action says speed matters in business and many decisions are reversible.
行动偏见表明，速度在商业中很重要，而且许多决策都是可逆的。
And so it's important to go faster.
因此，走得更快很重要。
Ethan Evans: And I think people don't understand that in a competitive environment, being right is good, but being quick is necessary.
伊森·埃文斯：我认为人们不明白，在竞争环境中，正确是好的，但快速是必要的。
Because if there are 10 startups working on an idea, some of them will gamble, and they'll make bad gambles, and they'll go out of business.
因为如果有 10 家初创公司致力于同一个想法，他们中的一些人就会赌博，而且他们会做出糟糕的赌博，然后他们就会倒闭。
But some of them will gamble and make an early bet and be right.
但他们中的一些人会赌博，提前下注并且是对的。
And if you are not moving quickly, you'll be beaten by the people who maybe got lucky.
如果你行动不迅速，你就会被那些可能很幸运的人打败。
Ethan Evans: And so you've got to have a process that values speed, values, what can we do today?
伊森·埃文斯：所以你必须有一个重视速度、价值观的流程，我们今天能做什么？
What can we commit to today?
今天我们可以承诺什么？
So I really like bias for action.
所以我真的很喜欢行动偏见。
Now that is what got me in trouble with Jeff, right?
这就是我和杰夫遇到麻烦的原因，对吧？
I was willing to gamble.
我愿意赌一把。
So it has to be in balance, but that's my other favorite.
所以它必须保持平衡，但这是我最喜欢的另一个。
Lenny: Again, the Jeff Bezos interview with Lex Fridman, he was talking about how with Blue Origin, with the way Amazon, he thought about Amazon is customer obsession.
莱尼：同样，杰夫·贝佐斯在接受莱克斯·弗里德曼采访时，他谈到了蓝色起源以及亚马逊的方式，他认为亚马逊是客户至上的。
That was the core goal and differentiator of Amazon.
这是亚马逊的核心目标和差异化优势。
With Blue Origin, he wants it to be decisiveness.
对于蓝色起源，他希望是果断的。
It's basically leaning into this bias for action fully, which is really interesting.
它基本上完全倾向于这种行动偏见，这真的很有趣。
Ethan Evans: I saw that part of the interview and I thought, "Wow, that's exactly right." Because again, rockets blow up and they have people on them.
伊森·埃文斯：我看到了采访的那一部分，我想，“哇，这完全正确。”因为火箭再次爆炸，上面载着人。
You've got to get it right, but you also have to keep moving, because there's always one more thing you can safety test.
你必须做对，但你也必须继续前进，因为总有一件事情你可以进行安全测试。
So how do you balance it?
那么如何平衡呢？
Lenny: Yeah, it's interesting.
莱尼：是的，这很有趣。
With rockets, that's the one that you pick.
对于火箭来说，这就是你所选择的。
It's pretty bold to be all move forward kind of thing.
一切都向前迈进，这是相当大胆的。
So this principle, again, going back to ownership, so you basically suggested this phrase, "You didn't hear anything," and all of a sudden it becomes part of the whole thing.
所以这个原则，再次回到所有权，所以你基本上建议了这句话，“你什么也没听到”，突然间它成为整个事情的一部分。
Did that feel weird that they never told you, or I don't know if they gave you credit for that, or it's like, no, it's great?
他们从未告诉过你，是不是感觉很奇怪，或者我不知道他们是否相信你，或者说，不，这很棒？
Ethan Evans: Yeah, I wouldn't even claim credit for it, except I kept a copy of the email that says, "Ethan thinks it should say blah." I have the written proof.
伊森·埃文斯：是的，我什至不会为此归功于我，除非我保留了一份电子邮件副本，上面写着“伊森认为它应该说废话”。我有书面证明。
Because it's not about the credit.
因为这与信用无关。
I'm very happy and proud that those words were kept.
我对这些话被保留感到非常高兴和自豪。
But in Amazon, I doubt if Jeff knows I wrote those words.
但在亚马逊，我怀疑杰夫是否知道这些话是我写的。
It's not like I've ever told him, "Hey, do you know you kept my words?" That's not appropriate.
我从来没有告诉过他：“嘿，你知道你遵守了我的话吗？”那是不合适的。
It's just a fun anecdote.
这只是一个有趣的轶事。
Ethan Evans: And it does show, I guess something people can learn from that though, you can influence way up in a company if your ideas are good.
伊森·埃文斯：它确实表明，我想人们可以从中学到一些东西，如果你的想法很好，你可以在公司中发挥很大的影响力。
And also, when we challenged, Jeff Wilke was a strong opinionated leader who didn't necessarily always love being challenged.
而且，当我们提出挑战时，杰夫·威尔克是一位固执己见的领导者，但他并不总是喜欢接受挑战。
Ethan Evans: And so when we first told him, "Well, we think you're missing ownership," he was like, "You're staying that the whole S team can't get its leadership principles right?" I mean it wasn't exactly that way, but he was very much like, "Well, is this really necessary?
伊森·埃文斯：所以当我们第一次告诉他，“好吧，我们认为你失去了主人翁意识”，他的反应是，“你认为整个 S 团队都无法正确执行其领导原则？”我的意思是事实并非如此，但他很想，“嗯，这真的有必要吗？
Why do you think it's necessary?" And his challenge to us to write it was kind of framed as, "Well if you're so sure it's good, show us." But again, I'm stubborn and I'm like, "All right, let's write it." And we did.
为什么你认为有必要？”他对我们写这本书的挑战有点像，“如果你确定它很好，那就给我们看看。”但我还是很固执，我说：“好吧，我们写吧。”我们做到了。
Lenny: That's funny.
莱尼：这很有趣。
That's not a great example of leadership where he is like, "Hey guys, I need your feedback on this thing.
这不是一个很好的领导力例子，他会说：“嘿伙计们，我需要你们对这件事的反馈。
But no, don't actually tell me anything's wrong."
但不，别告诉我有什么问题。”
Ethan Evans: Well, yeah.
伊森·埃文斯：嗯，是的。
I mean for a bunch of directors to kind of critique the work of people two levels higher, he wanted it, but then he's sort of naturally resistant to it if we're kind of poking at his baby.
我的意思是，对于一群导演来说，批评比他高两级的人的工作，他希望如此，但如果我们有点戳他的孩子，他就会自然地抵制它。
Lenny: It's unlikely that there's something huge missing and it turns out there was.
莱尼：不太可能有什么巨大的缺失，但事实证明确实存在。
Lenny: And I guess just on these principles, people may not know this, but this is where disagree and commit comes from.
莱尼：我想就这些原则而言，人们可能不知道这一点，但这就是分歧和承诺的来源。
It's actually have backbone, disagree, and commit.
它实际上是有骨气、不同意和承诺。
We talked about this on the podcast about working backwards.
我们在播客上讨论了向后工作的问题。
I also love leaders are right a lot.
我也很喜欢领导者是对的。
That comes up a lot and I love that, to be successful, you need to be right.
这种情况经常出现，我喜欢这样的说法：要想成功，你就必须是对的。
You can't just project confidence.
你不能仅仅表现出自信。
You can't just be in a bunch of meetings and ship things.
你不能只是参加一堆会议和运送东西。
You need to be right to be successful.
你需要正确才能成功。
Ethan Evans: And that one's been rewritten to carefully say, it's always interesting what is the history of the edits, which you wish you could see the edit history on these.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：那个已经被重写，仔细地说，编辑的历史总是很有趣，你希望你能看到这些的编辑历史。
That one got modified to say something about leaders actively work to disconfirm their beliefs.
那句话被修改为关于领导者积极努力否定他们的信念。
Ethan Evans: And the key there is it was trying to get at the idea that you've got to be very open and always be questioning, "Yes, I think I'm right, but what's the new evidence?
伊森·埃文斯：关键是试图理解这样一个想法，即你必须非常开放并始终质疑，“是的，我认为我是对的，但是新的证据是什么？
What am I learning?
我在学什么？
What's changing?" And in fact, it also says they seek diverse perspectives.
有什么变化吗？”事实上，它还表明他们寻求不同的观点。
Ethan Evans: And that was a way of getting at what's called DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion.
伊森·埃文斯：这是实现所谓的 DEI、多样性、公平和包容性的一种方式。
That's a subtle nod towards if everyone in the room is a 50-year-old white man, you may not really be making the right overall decision for Amazon's customer base.
这是一种微妙的暗示，如果房间里的每个人都是 50 岁的白人，那么你可能并没有真正为亚马逊的客户群做出正确的整体决定。
You may be making the one for 50-year-old white suburban Seattleites.
您可能正在为西雅图郊区 50 岁的白人制作一款。
And so it's just some of these, every word in those has been studied as an individual word inside the company.
所以这只是其中的一些，其中的每个词都在公司内部作为单独的词进行了研究。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
Let's move on to the final area I wanted to spend a little time on, and this is called contrarian corner.
让我们继续讨论我想花一点时间的最后一个领域，这就是所谓的逆向角。
I'm curious if you have any contrarian opinions about things basically that other people believe that you don't believe, something you see that many people don't see.
我很好奇，对于其他人认为你不相信的事情，或者你看到但很多人没有看到的事情，你是否有任何相反的观点。
Is there anything that comes to mind?
有什么想到的吗？
Ethan Evans: Yeah, I think a place where I'm currently very contrarian is the return to office movement.
伊森·埃文斯：是的，我认为我目前非常反对的一个地方是重返办公室运动。
Many leaders at my level appear or publicly favor the need to get back into the office potentially full-time.
许多与我同级别的领导者似乎或公开支持重返办公室全职工作的必要性。
Ethan Evans: And I'm contrarian on this because of innovation.
伊森·埃文斯：由于创新，我对此持反对态度。
Specifically, I looked it up, you can check my facts on Wikipedia.
具体来说，我查了一下，你可以在维基百科上查看我的事实。
The first purpose-built office, the first building ever built to be an office was built in 1726 in London.
第一个专门建造的办公室，第一座办公建筑于 1726 年在伦敦建成。
And so we're about 300 years into learning how to use offices well.
因此，我们花了大约 300 年的时间来学习如何充分利用办公室。
Ethan Evans: And what that means is offices aren't going to get much better.
伊森·埃文斯：这意味着办公室不会变得更好。
What's the last major thing you can think of that got better in offices?
您能想到的在办公室中得到改善的最后一件重要事情是什么？
You might say well open offices, but a lot of people would say that's not even a good idea.
您可能会说开放式办公室很好，但很多人会说这甚至不是一个好主意。
These big rows of desks and loud pits.
这些大排的桌子和吵闹的坑。
Ethan Evans: With working from home, we've only been doing that for a few years since the pandemic began and at all since the internet started 20 years ago.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：自从疫情爆发以来，我们在家工作的时间才几年，甚至从 20 年前互联网出现以来，我们才开始在家工作。
Which one is likely to have more opportunity for improvement?
哪一项可能有更多改进的机会？
There's so many things we haven't explored with remote work.
远程工作还有很多事情我们还没有探索过。
And I think the people who say, "Back to the office, it's because we know it works," well we know what it is, but I have so much more faith in the opportunity to improve the remote experience.
我认为那些说“回到办公室，因为我们知道它有效”的人，我们知道它是什么，但我对改善远程体验的机会更有信心。
And so I think long-term, it's going to triumph.
所以我认为从长远来看，它将会取得胜利。
Ethan Evans: The one other place where I'm a huge contrarian is doing business on a handshake.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：我是一个巨大的逆向投资者的另一个地方是通过握手做生意。
I understand companies need lawyers, and I have an attorney for certain things.
我知道公司需要律师，而且我在某些事情上也有律师。
But I coach people.
但我指导人们。
Most of the people I coach, there's no NDA in place.
我指导的大多数人都没有保密协议。
There's no contract in place.
没有合同到位。
They pay me through PayPal and I do good coaching for them.
他们通过 PayPal 向我付款，我为他们提供了很好的指导。
Ethan Evans: I think too much of the world is contract driven, and we've lost the idea of your word being your bond, and you can actually trust me to follow through on my commitments.
伊森·埃文斯：我认为世界上太多的事情都是由合同驱动的，我们已经失去了你的诺言就是你的债券的想法，你实际上可以相信我会履行我的承诺。
And I'm a contrarian there.
我是一个反对者。
Ethan Evans: I realize I will occasionally get burnt.
伊森·埃文斯：我意识到我偶尔会被烧伤。
Someone will behave in a way, they'll let me down.
有人会以某种方式行事，他们会让我失望。
But I think when we're always suspicious of people, that's a high cost.
但我认为，当我们总是怀疑别人时，代价就会很高。
And the other place I'm contrarian is just doing business on faith.
我反对的另一个地方是凭信心做生意。
Lenny: That reminds me, Sam Altman has a similar philosophy of just trust people and assume it'll all be okay.
莱尼：这让我想起，萨姆·奥尔特曼也有类似的理念，就是相信别人并假设一切都会好起来的。
Sometimes you'll get burned, but on balance, it'll end up being much better for you and for everyone around you.
有时你会被烧伤，但总的来说，这对你和你周围的每个人来说最终都会好得多。
Ethan Evans: I didn't know that Sam had said that, but I strongly agree with it.
伊森·埃文斯：我不知道萨姆这么说过，但我非常同意。
Lenny: Yeah, although he had some challenges recently.
莱尼：是的，尽管他最近遇到了一些挑战。
I don't know if it's working great, but it ended upgrade for him.
我不知道它是否有效，但它结束了他的升级。
So anyway, okay.
所以无论如何，好吧。
We've actually reached our very exciting lightning round.
我们实际上已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Before we get there, is there anything else you wanted to touch on, or share, or leave listeners with?
在我们开始之前，您还有什么想谈、分享或留给听众的吗？
Ethan Evans: No, I've really enjoyed this conversation.
伊森·埃文斯：不，我真的很喜欢这次谈话。
I could talk about careers forever and I love doing that, but I think we've covered a ton today that will really help people.
我可以永远谈论职业，我喜欢这样做，但我认为我们今天已经讨论了很多对人们真正有帮助的内容。
So I'm good.
所以我很好。
Let's hit the lightning round.
让我们来打闪电回合吧。
Lenny: All right.
莱尼：好吧。
With that, we reached our very exciting lightning round.
就这样，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: Ethan, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
莱尼：伊森，你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Ethan Evans: Two or three books.
伊森·埃文斯：两三本书。
My number one recommendation is a book called Decisive.
我的第一个推荐是一本叫做《Decisive》的书。
It's by Chip and Dan Heath, and it's about the science of making better decisions.
这是 Chip 和 Dan Heath 的作品，内容涉及如何做出更好决策的科学。
The reason I recommend it so much is it will make your career better because leaders are decision makers, but also your personal life.
我如此推荐它的原因是它会让你的职业生涯变得更好，因为领导者是决策者，也是你的个人生活。
So I apply it at least as much in my personal life as I do in my professional life.
因此，我在个人生活中和在职业生活中至少一样应用它。
Ethan Evans: My second most recommended book is Leadership and Self Deception, much less known than Decisive, a little bit harder to approach.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：我第二推荐的书是《领导力与自欺欺人》，它比《果断》鲜为人知，也更难接触。
It's by a group, a research group called the Arbinger Institute, and it's about, the self-deception is we cause a lot of our interpersonal problems while blaming them on others.
这是由一个名为 Arbinger Institute 的研究小组发起的，其内容是自欺欺人，我们造成了很多人际问题，同时将其归咎于他人。
And it walks through how are you part of the problem you're having with somebody else and what can you do about it?
它讲述了你是如何参与与他人之间的问题的，以及你能做些什么？
Ethan Evans: The third and final book was recently brought to me by someone I work with that you know, Jason .
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：第三本书也是最后一本书是最近由与我一起工作的人杰森（Jason）带给我的。
That book is The Almanack Of Naval Ravikant.
那本书是《海军拉维坎特年鉴》。
And Naval Ravikant is an angel investor responsible for AngelList.
Naval Ravikant 是负责 AngelList 的天使投资人。
Ethan Evans: But what I love about that book is he has a recipe.
伊森·埃文斯：但我喜欢那本书的是他有一个食谱。
He really boils down how to be successful while loving what you do.
他确实总结了如何在热爱自己所做的事情的同时取得成功。
And he says, "No one can be a better version of you." Don't try to copy me and be, "I'm going to be like Ethan, or I'm going to be like Lenny." Instead, figure out what you uniquely do best that you love, because no one can copy you being you.
他说：“没有人能成为比你更好的人。”不要试图模仿我，“我要像伊森那样，或者我要像莱尼那样。”相反，找出你最擅长的、你最喜欢的事情，因为没有人可以复制你做你自己。
And that's your defensible sort of career value.
这就是你的职业价值。
And I really like that mental model.
我真的很喜欢这种思维模型。
Lenny: Yeah, Naval has so many insightful messages, and you can read all these on his Twitter.
莱尼：是的，纳瓦尔有很多富有洞察力的信息，你可以在他的 Twitter 上阅读所有这些信息。
We'll link to his Twitter, and someone just made a book out of his tweets basically.
我们将链接到他的推特，有人刚刚根据他的推文制作了一本书。
He's such an interesting dude.
他真是个有趣的家伙。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
What is a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?
您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？
Ethan Evans: So I grew up on a farm, and so all the Taylor Sheridan, 1923, and Yellowstone, and all of those series, we've watched everything he's put out.
伊森·埃文斯：我在一个农场长大，所以所有的泰勒·谢里登、1923、黄石公园以及所有这些系列，我们都看过他推出的所有作品。
We do kind of laugh like, wow.
我们确实会笑，哇。
Are you familiar with Yellowstone at all?
你对黄石公园很熟悉吗？
Ethan Evans: Yeah.
伊森·埃文斯：是的。
At one point my wife and I were watching it, we would start betting.
有一次，我和妻子在观看比赛时，我们就开始下注。
So the episode is starting, how many people will die in this episode?
那么这一集开始了，这一集会死多少人呢？
This ranch in Montana, but yet somehow they're always killing people.
蒙大拿州的这个牧场，但不知怎的，他们总是在杀人。
How does this work?
这是如何运作的？
Lenny: That's what your life was like, is what I'm hearing.
莱尼：我听说，这就是你的生活。
Favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates?
您最喜欢问应聘者的面试问题？
Ethan Evans: I think my favorite interview question is, "Tell me about a time where you needed to disagree with your management, where you needed to stand up or fight for a position against higher leadership or people in power." Because I think that's really hard to do.
伊森·埃文斯：我认为我最喜欢的面试问题是，“告诉我一次你需要与你的管理层提出不同意见的时候，你需要站起来或与更高领导层或当权者对抗的时候。”因为我觉得这真的很难做到。
I'm normally interviewing leaders, and I think having a bunch of people who just say yes isn't helpful.
我通常会采访领导者，我认为一群人只是说“是”并没有什么帮助。
You need people to have, as you said, have backbone, disagree and commit.
正如你所说，你需要人们有骨气、有不同意见、有承诺。
So that's what I'm normally looking for.
这就是我通常寻找的。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Is there favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?
您最近发现有没有您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品？
Ethan Evans: It's silly, but my favorite product that I've discovered recently is the Chuckit!, which you use to whip a ball for your dog a quarter mile.
Ethan Evans：这很愚蠢，但我最近发现的我最喜欢的产品是 Chuckit！，你可以用它为你的狗鞭打球四分之一英里。
It basically extends your arm.
它基本上延伸了你的手臂。
And it's just fun to send a ball soaring way further than you could ever throw it.
让球飞得比你扔得更远，这真是太有趣了。
And you feel like, "Wow, look at me.
你会觉得，“哇，看着我。
I'm a major league pitcher." Because I have this three foot lever arm and I understand physics.
我是一名大联盟投手。”因为我有这个三英尺杠杆臂并且我了解物理学。
If we look at tech products, there's so many I love.
如果我们看看科技产品，就会发现有很多我喜欢的产品。
It's too easy to say ChatGPT and stuff, so I won't go there.
说ChatGPT之类的太容易了，所以我就不去那里了。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
My dog does not love chasing balls, so I haven't had a reason to buy that, but I've never thought about just the joy of flicking a ball really far.
我的狗不喜欢追球，所以我没有理由买它，但我从来没有想过把球弹得很远的乐趣。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, share with folks, find useful in work or in life?
您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回顾、与人们分享、发现在工作或生活中有用？
Ethan Evans: I happen to be a Christian, and the motto that I think about the most is, "To whom much has been given, from him much will be required." And so I think a lot about what is my social responsibility.
伊森·埃文斯：我碰巧是一名基督徒，我想到最多的座右铭是“对谁给予了很多，就会向他索要很多”。所以我思考了很多关于我的社会责任是什么。
Ethan Evans: I've been very lucky.
伊森·埃文斯：我很幸运。
I grew up on a farm in Ohio now.
我现在在俄亥俄州的一个农场长大。
I wasn't a farm boy, my father was a chemist.
我不是农场男孩，我的父亲是化学家。
But I grew up in upper middle class settings, and I've ended up being extremely successful, able to retire from my job at 50 to kind of coach and teach.
但我在中上层阶级环境中长大，最终取得了巨大的成功，能够在 50 岁退休，从事教练和教学工作。
What do I owe to pay forward?
我需要支付什么费用？
So those words are obviously ancient spiritual texts, but they're the ones I take away and think the most about.
所以这些话显然是古老的精神文本，但它们是我带走并思考最多的。
What's my responsibility?
我的责任是什么？
Lenny: As an example of someone that to whom much has been given, but because he's worked so hard, Jeff Bezos is starting a space business as you know.
莱尼：正如你所知，杰夫·贝佐斯（Jeff Bezos）作为一个获得了很多帮助但工作非常努力的人的例子，正在开始一项太空业务。
If you had the chance to go to space, would you go?
如果有机会去太空，你会去吗？
Ethan Evans: Well, I of course saw his interview where he talked about how he thought about the safety and the conversation he had to have with his mother.
伊森·埃文斯：嗯，我当然看到了他的采访，他谈到了他对安全的看法以及他必须与母亲进行的对话。
I would like to go to space.
我想去太空。
I'm not willing to pay what I think the current tickets are, but I would take the risk.
我不愿意支付我认为当前门票的价格，但我愿意冒险。
So what's the risk of that ride?
那么这种骑行有什么风险呢？
One in a hundred, one in 50, even more that you won't come back.
百分之一、五十分之一、甚至更多的人，你就不会再回来了。
I would probably take the gamble.
我可能会赌一把。
Lenny: So you'd be an early adopter?
莱尼：所以你会成为早期采用者？
Where along that curve would you be, an early adopter, laggard?
沿着这条曲线，你会是早期采用者还是落后者？
Ethan Evans: Well, I'm old enough that I remember when the Challenger space shuttle exploded, and I said I would get on the next one and I said, "They're never going to be more careful than the next one, so I'll get on the next one."
伊森·埃文斯：嗯，我已经足够大了，我记得挑战者号航天飞机爆炸时，我说我会登上下一架，我说，“他们永远不会比下一架更小心，所以我会登上下一架。”
Ethan Evans: So I think I would get on any one I was offered because of the chance.
伊森·埃文斯（Ethan Evans）：所以我想我会因为机会而接受任何向我提供的机会。
Unlike Jeff who claims he wasn't scared, I would probably be really terrified, at least at liftoff.
与杰夫声称他并不害怕不同，我可能会非常害怕，至少在升空时是这样。
While you're up there, it's great.
当你在上面的时候，那真是太棒了。
Everything either goes wrong going up or coming down.
一切要么向上要么向下出错。
It's not the middle.
这不是中间。
Lenny: Ethan, I think we're going to help a lot of people with their career.
莱尼：伊森，我认为我们将为很多人的职业生涯提供帮助。
I think we're going to help them work through failure, become better owners.
我认为我们将帮助他们克服失败，成为更好的主人。
Thank you so much for being here.
非常感谢您来到这里。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out?
如果人们想联系您，可以在哪里找到您？
Also, just share what you do now in case people could use that help.
另外，只需分享您现在所做的事情，以防人们可以使用该帮助。
And then how can listeners useful to you?
那么听众如何对你有用呢？
Ethan Evans: So the best place to find me online, I do all my writing on LinkedIn.
Ethan Evans：所以，在 LinkedIn 上找到我的最佳地点是我所有的写作。
It's where the professional community is.
这就是专业社区所在的地方。
So Ethan Evans on LinkedIn.
LinkedIn 上的伊森·埃文斯 (Ethan Evans) 就是这样。
My actual handle there is Ethan Evans VP for my history as a vice president.
我的实际负责人是伊森·埃文斯 (Ethan Evans) 副总裁，负责我担任副总裁的历史。
That's the best place to find me.
那是找到我的最佳地点。
I do have a Substack newsletter.
我确实有一份 Substack 时事通讯。
I do teach through the Maven platform, but all of those are linked off LinkedIn.
我确实通过 Maven 平台进行教学，但所有这些都是通过 LinkedIn 链接的。
Ethan Evans: And really, how readers help me, they comment on what I write, because I miss things.
伊森·埃文斯：实际上，读者如何帮助我，他们对我写的内容进行评论，因为我想念一些东西。
I am one person's perspective.
我是一个人的视角。
And so I actually have a process where I take in all the comments people write, all the different perspectives, all the different exceptions, or special cases, or examples, and that's how I improve my own thinking is I read every comment and think, "Okay, what did I miss?
所以我实际上有一个过程，我吸收人们写的所有评论，所有不同的观点，所有不同的例外，或特殊情况，或例子，这就是我改进自己思维的方法，我阅读每条评论并思考，“好吧，我错过了什么？
What could I have said better?
我还能说什么更好？
How can I incorporate this if I ever talk about this again?"
如果我再次谈论这件事，我该如何将其纳入其中？”
Lenny: Just to give you another opportunity to plug the stuff you do now, what do you help people with in case people could value could you use the stuff that you offer?
莱尼：只是为了给你另一个机会来推广你现在所做的事情，如果人们能够重视你可以使用你提供的东西，你会帮助人们做什么？
You said you coach, you have a course.
你说你是教练，你有课程。
What sort of stuff?
什么样的东西？
Ethan Evans: I focus on two topics, career development.
伊森·埃文斯：我关注两个主题，职业发展。
So how do you row in your career, the whole Magic Loop, and how do you attain promotion or attain a new role raise if that's your goal?
那么，您如何在整个 Magic Loop 职业生涯中划船？如果这是您的目标，您如何获得晋升或获得新职位的提升？
And then leadership specifically.
然后是具体的领导力。
I teach a course that's been very popular called Stuck at Senior Manager - Breaking Through To Executive, which is how to get out of that sort of stuck, "I'm working really hard, I'm pretty good.
我教授一门很受欢迎的课程，叫做《高级经理陷入困境——突破到高管》，这是关于如何摆脱这种困境的课程，“我工作非常努力，我很优秀。
I'm managing 25 or 50 people, but how do I get to the big chair?
我管理着 25 或 50 名员工，但我如何才能坐到大椅子上呢？
How do I get to the division level leadership and what do I need to change?" It's that whole what got you here won't get you there.
我如何进入处级领导层，我需要改变什么？”正是这一切让你来到这里，但不会让你到达那里。
And I love to see people succeed at that.
我喜欢看到人们在这方面取得成功。
People write me back and say, "I did get a job.
人们给我回信说：“我确实找到了工作。
I did get promoted, I did get a raise," and that's my fulfillment.
我确实升职了，我确实加薪了，”这就是我的成就感。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Ethan, thank you so much for being here.
伊森，非常感谢你来到这里。
Ethan Evans: Thank you, Lenny.
伊森·埃文斯：谢谢你，莱尼。
And I got to say, you are very good at this.
我不得不说，你在这方面非常擅长。
You're so smooth and you just do a great job interviewing.
你非常流畅，面试表现非常出色。
It's been really been a pleasure.
这真的是一种享受。
Lenny: I really appreciate that, and so are you.
莱尼：我真的很感激，你也是。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Bye everyone.
再见大家。
Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。
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您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。