Countdown of the top 10 episodes of the year

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

Normally, I interview world class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard won experiences building and growing today's most successful companies.

通常，我会采访世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，以学习他们建立和发展当今最成功的公司的来之不易的经验。

But today is going to be a very different and unique episode.

但今天将是一个非常不同且独特的事件。

I launched this podcast about six months ago.

我大约六个月前推出了这个播客。

We've done exactly 50 episodes at this point.

到目前为止我们已经完成了 50 集。

We've also done over 2 million downloads since we launched.

自推出以来，我们的下载量也已超过 200 万次。

The podcast is a top 10 technology podcast across Apple and Spotify globally.

该播客是 Apple 和 Spotify 全球十大科技播客。

And I believe there's about 40 to 50,000 subscribers or followers of the podcast across Apple and Spotify, which is all very exciting and kind of blows my mind.

我相信 Apple 和 Spotify 上大约有 40 到 50,000 名播客订阅者或追随者，这一切都非常令人兴奋，也让我大吃一惊。

Lenny: So what I decided to do with this final episode of the year is to look back at the 10 most popular episodes that we've done so far.

Lenny：所以我决定在今年的最后一集中回顾一下我们迄今为止制作的 10 部最受欢迎的剧集。

So what I'm going to do is count down from the 10th most popular episode to number one and play a clip or two from that episode that I found to be most interesting or that's been the most popular.

所以我要做的就是从第十个最受欢迎的剧集倒数到第一，然后播放该剧集中我认为最有趣或最受欢迎的一两个剪辑。

I've never done this sort of episode before.

我以前从未做过这种情节。

We'll see how it goes.

我们会看看事情进展如何。

I think it's going to be really interesting.

我认为这会非常有趣。

If it's not, we will never do it again.

如果不是，我们永远不会再这样做。

And if it is, awesome.

如果是的话，那就太棒了。

Either way, enjoy.

不管怎样，享受吧。

We're going to get right into it after a short word from our sponsors.

在赞助商简短发言后我们将立即开始讨论。

Adam Grant: Have you ever wondered what makes great minds tick?

亚当·格兰特：你有没有想过是什么让伟大的头脑运转起来？

I'm Adam Grant and on my new podcast, Rethinking, I'm trying to find the answers.

我是亚当·格兰特，在我的新播客《重新思考》中，我试图找到答案。

Every week I interview some of my favorite thinkers to learn how we can bring out the best in ourselves and others.

每周我都会采访一些我最喜欢的思想家，以了解我们如何才能发挥出自己和他人最好的一面。

I talk to defying rock climbers, Oscar-winning filmmakers, creators like Lin-Manuel Miranda, entrepreneurs like Mark Cuban and thought leaders like Brene Brown.

我与敢于挑战的攀岩者、奥斯卡获奖电影制片人、林-曼努尔·米兰达这样的创作者、马克·库班这样的企业家以及布琳·布朗这样的思想领袖交谈。

Find Rethinking on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen.

在 Apple 播客、Spotify、亚马逊音乐或任何您收听的地方查找《Rethinking》。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Notion.

Lenny：这一集是由 Notion 为您带来的。

If you haven't heard of Notion, where have you been?

如果您还没有听说过 Notion，那么您去过哪里？

I use Notion to coordinate this very podcast.

我使用 Notion 来协调这个播客。

Including my content calendar, my sponsors, and prepping guests for launch of each episode.

包括我的内容日历、我的赞助商以及为每集发布做准备的嘉宾。

Notion is an all-in-one team collaboration tool that combines note-taking, document sharing, wikis, project management, and much more into one space that's simple, powerful and beautifully designed.

Notion 是一款一体化团队协作工具，它将笔记记录、文档共享、wiki、项目管理等功能结合到一个简单、强大且设计精美的空间中。

And not only does it allow you to be more efficient in your work life, but you can easily transition to using it in your personal life, which is another feature that truly sets Notion apart.

它不仅可以让您在工作生活中更有效率，而且您可以轻松过渡到在个人生活中使用它，这是真正使 Notion 与众不同的另一个功能。

The other day I started a home project and immediately opened up Notion to help me organize it all.

有一天，我开始了一个家庭项目，并立即打开 Notion 来帮助我组织这一切。

Learn more and get started for free at Notion.com/Lennyspod.

请访问 Notion.com/Lennyspod 了解更多信息并免费开始使用。

Take the first step towards an organized happy team today, again at notion.com/Lennyspod.

今天再次在 notion.com/Lennyspod 上迈出走向有组织的快乐团队的第一步。

Lenny: Welcome back and let's kick off this countdown with the 10th most popular episode of the year, and that is with April Dunford.

莱尼：欢迎回来，让我们从今年最受欢迎的第十集开始倒计时，那是阿普丽尔·邓福德的节目。

April is the author of obviously awesome.

April 是《显然很棒》的作者。

She, in my opinion, is the smartest person in the world on positioning and how to figure out positioning for your product.

在我看来，她是世界上在定位以及如何确定产品定位方面最聪明的人。

And here's April describing the five steps to figure out your product's positioning.

四月描述了确定产品定位的五个步骤。

Lenny: Say that you're a PM or founder that's ready to start figuring out their positioning for their product.

Lenny：假设您是一名产品经理或创始人，准备开始确定其产品的定位。

What's the first thing that you do?

你做的第一件事是什么？

April Dunford: I actually think the first step in a good positioning exercise is to really understand what do we have to position against?

April Dunford：实际上，我认为良好定位练习的第一步是真正了解我们必须针对什么进行定位？

So put another way, it's like saying, what do I have to beat in order to win a deal?

换句话说，这就像在说，为了赢得一笔交易，我必须克服什么？

So in positioning work we call this competitive alternatives.

所以在定位工作中我们称之为竞争性替代方案。

Now, how people mess up this first step is, I say competitive alternatives and they think competition.

现在，人们如何搞砸这第一步是，我说的是竞争性替代方案，他们认为是竞争。

So things that look exactly like me.

所以那些看起来和我一模一样的东西。

But in B2B we kind of have two sets of competitors.

但在 B2B 领域，我们有两类竞争对手。

We have status quo, which is whatever the company is doing to attempt to solve the problem right now, even if it's crappy and not great.

我们维持现状，这就是公司现在为解决问题所做的一切，即使它很糟糕而且不是很好。

And then there's, if the company does decide they're going to buy something different, they usually make a short list.

然后，如果公司确实决定购买不同的东西，他们通常会列出一个简短的清单。

So, it's whoever else lands on the short list.

所以，无论谁进入候选名单，都是如此。

I need to be able to put a stake in the ground and say, I got to beat all that in order to win a deal.

我需要能够在地上扎根并说，我必须克服这一切才能赢得交易。

April Dunford: Now most folks will discount the status quo, but they shouldn't because in B2B we lose about 40% of our deals to, "No decision," which actually means we lost to the spreadsheet, we lost to pen and paper, we lost to interns.

April Dunford：现在大多数人都会低估现状，但他们不应该这样做，因为在 B2B 领域，我们因“没有决定”而失去了大约 40% 的交易，这实际上意味着我们输给了电子表格，我们输给了笔和纸，我们输给了实习生。

And if we're not positioning well against that, we're never going to get the customer to come off of that.

如果我们没有做好应对这一点的定位，我们就永远无法让客户摆脱这种情况。

So I got to win against status quo, but I also have to win, most of the time, if it's B2B, you don't just buy the first thing you come across, you make a short list of alternatives and I got to win against those as well.

所以我必须战胜现状，但我也必须获胜，大多数时候，如果是 B2B，你不只是购买你遇到的第一个东西，你会列出一个简短的替代品清单，我也必须战胜这些。

April Dunford: So step number one, what am I positioning against?

April Dunford：那么第一步，我的定位是什么？

Once I have that stake in the ground, then I can start thinking about what makes us different.

一旦我扎根于此，我就可以开始思考是什么让我们与众不同。

So the easiest way to do this is, okay, this is what I have to position against, what have I got capabilities wise that the alternatives don't have?

因此，最简单的方法是，好吧，这就是我必须反对的，我有哪些其他替代方案没有的能力？

So feature function or even capabilities of the company, which could be pricing or professional services around other things that you've got, but also capabilities of the product.

因此，要突出公司的功能甚至能力，这可能是围绕您所拥有的其他事物的定价或专业服务，也可能是产品的功能。

What have I got that the alternatives don't have?

我有什么是其他选择所没有的？

And I can make a giant list of these things.

我可以列出这些事情的一个巨大清单。

And then I can translate that stuff into value by going down the list and saying, okay, we have this great feature, so what?

然后我可以将这些东西转化为价值，通过查看列表并说，好吧，我们有这个很棒的功能，那又怎样？

Why does a customer care about it?

为什么客户会关心它？

What is the value that feature enables?

该功能能够带来什么价值？

April Dunford: When I do that mapping over to value, what generally happens is I end up with two or three value buckets or value themes.

April Dunford：当我将其映射到价值时，通常会发生的情况是我最终会得到两个或三个价值桶或价值主题。

And quite often those value buckets or value themes are different than what I would've gotten if I got all the smart people in my company together and said, hey, why does everybody love our stuff?

通常，这些价值桶或价值主题与我将公司中所有聪明人聚集在一起并说：嘿，为什么每个人都喜欢我们的东西时所得到的不同。

When I do it this way I'm ensured that those value themes are differentiated and not just things that are generally valuable, but any alternative could get it done so why are we even talking about it?

当我这样做时，我确保这些价值主题是有区别的，而不仅仅是通常有价值的东西，而是任何替代方案都可以完成它，所以我们为什么还要谈论它呢？

So in my mind, that's kind of how we do it.

所以在我看来，这就是我们的做法。

April Dunford: Once I've got differentiated value, then I can start thinking about, well look, I could sell this product to any company that has this problem, but not everybody cares about this value the same way.

April Dunford：一旦我获得了差异化价值，那么我就可以开始思考，好吧，我可以将这个产品卖给任何有这个问题的公司，但并不是每个人都以同样的方式关心这个价值。

And so what are the characteristics of a target account that make them really, really care a lot about that value?

那么目标帐户的哪些特征使他们真正非常关心该价值呢？

If I do some deep thinking about that, that's going to be my definition of a really best fit customer.

如果我对此进行深入思考，这将是我对真正最适合的客户的定义。

April Dunford: And then the last piece of positioning of course is market category.

April Dunford：最后一个定位当然是市场类别。

And so again, a lot of people will just start with market category and then try to back up, which I think is crazy 'cause then we don't have any way to judge the goodness of a market category.

同样，很多人会从市场类别开始，然后尝试备份，我认为这很疯狂，因为这样我们就没有任何方法来判断市场类别的优劣。

But if I've got, look, this is the value only I can deliver, these are the kind of people that really care a lot about that value.

但如果我有，看，这是只有我才能提供的价值，这些人是真正非常关心这个价值的人。

If I start thinking about positioning is like the context I position my product in, then the best market category is the context I position my product in such that this value is kind of obvious to these people.

如果我开始考虑定位就像我定位我的产品的环境，那么最好的市场类别就是我将我的产品定位的环境，这样这个价值对这些人来说是显而易见的。

This is my long-winded way of doing it, but this is the only way I know how to get positioning done.

这是我冗长的做法，但这是我知道如何完成定位的唯一方法。

Lenny: Next up is Crystal Widjaja, who is a longtime chief product officer at Gojek.

Lenny：下一位是 Crystal Widjaja，她是 Gojek 的长期首席产品官。

She's currently chief product officer at Kumu, and she's one of the smartest growth minds that you probably have not heard of.

她目前是 Kumu 的首席产品官，她是您可能没有听说过的最聪明的成长型人才之一。

Here is Crystal talking about why most analytics efforts fail at companies.

克里斯托 (Crystal) 谈论了为什么大多数公司的分析工作都失败了。

Lenny: I want to shift a little bit to post that you wrote that maybe he's winning more popular posts, you wrote on the Reforge blog called, Why Most Analytics Efforts Fail.

Lenny：我想稍微转移一下你写的帖子，也许他赢得了更受欢迎的帖子，你在 Reforge 博客上写道，为什么大多数分析工作都会失败。

I'd love to hear your broad overview of why do most analytics efforts fail and then how do teams avoid this, maybe what are two to three things they can do?

我很想听听您对为什么大多数分析工作失败的广泛概述，以及团队如何避免这种情况，也许他们可以做哪些两到三件事？

Crystal Widjaja: Yeah, I'm actually pretty surprised at how much noise that has generated because I guess it came from a place of frustration where I kept telling people like, you are doing this wrong, here's how you should probably be doing it.

Crystal Widjaja：是的，我实际上对产生的噪音感到非常惊讶，因为我猜它来自于一个沮丧的地方，我一直告诉人们，你做错了，这就是你应该如何做。

But I think it resonated a lot with Foltz because they recognize all of those symptoms but they weren't sure why it was happening.

但我认为这引起了福尔茨的很大共鸣，因为他们认识到所有这些症状，但他们不确定为什么会发生。

So to say, oh, this is the thing, instrumentation is what's wrong.

所以说，哦，这就是问题所在，仪器仪表出了问题。

I think it's a very actionable thing.

我认为这是一个非常可操作的事情。

It's probably one of the most solvable problems out there.

这可能是最容易解决的问题之一。

It just takes some time and mental model shifts to do it well.

只需要一些时间和思维模式的转变就能做好。

Crystal Widjaja: So a lot of people look at tracking data as how do I track my OKR?

Crystal Widjaja：很多人都会将跟踪数据视为我如何跟踪我的 OKR？

How do I know if I'm going up or down?

我怎么知道我是上升还是下降？

But they don't use it to track or identify insights.

但他们不会用它来跟踪或识别见解。

So I will use the example of using Twitter for, "News" when in reality they're actually using Twitter for entertainment.

因此，我将使用使用 Twitter 来表示“新闻”的示例，而实际上他们使用 Twitter 是为了娱乐。

Do not treat metric gathering as entertainment.

不要将度量收集视为娱乐。

It's not there for you to be like, oh, that's interesting, how novel, and then not act on it.

你不会觉得，哦，这很有趣，多么新奇，然后就不采取行动。

So real news is information that changes what you do in the real world.

所以真正的新闻是改变你在现实世界中所做的事情的信息。

And if you don't change what you're doing, what you are doing is just getting entertainment.

如果你不改变你正在做的事情，你所做的只是为了娱乐。

So let's use that as a premise.

所以让我们以此为前提。

Crystal Widjaja: The next step in instrumentation is to look at the fact that measurements do not equate to insights.

Crystal Widjaja：仪器仪表化的下一步是审视测量并不等于洞察力这一事实。

A measurement would be an observation, it's a data point in your database.

测量是一种观察，它是数据库中的一个数据点。

So the example being power users do four times more bookings is an observed fact because your transactional database obviously says that that is the case.

因此，高级用户的预订量增加四倍的例子是一个观察到的事实，因为您的事务数据库显然表明情况就是如此。

But it's not an insight because it doesn't have context, it doesn't give you information that lets you act on it and better understand the problem.

但这不是洞察力，因为它没有上下文，它不会提供让您采取行动并更好地理解问题的信息。

Crystal Widjaja: So another example would be if I see my girlfriend hanging out with a guy, I don't know.

Crystal Widjaja：另一个例子是，如果我看到我的女朋友和一个男人出去玩，我不知道。

That is an observed fact that you see in the real world.

这是您在现实世界中看到的观察到的事实。

You're a hypothesis could be that your girlfriend is cheating on you, but the insight, the actual fact might be that she's not cheating on you, it's her cousin.

你的假设可能是你的女朋友在欺骗你，但洞察力，实际的事实可能是她没有欺骗你，而是她的表弟。

And now your insight is I am paranoid and I need to change my behavior to be less crazy.

现在你的看法是我很偏执，我需要改变我的行为，让自己不那么疯狂。

So, the insight will provide value when you have this why answered.

因此，当你回答了这个原因时，洞察力就会提供价值。

Why is this person doing this thing?

这个人为什么要做这件事？

Here's why.

原因如下。

And then you are going to act differently.

然后你就会采取不同的行动。

Crystal Widjaja: So for our purposes, if we look at a Goodfood user will transact and is more likely to use a voucher.

Crystal Widjaja：因此，就我们的目的而言，如果我们观察 Goodfood 用户是否会进行交易，并且更有可能使用优惠券。

That's a fact, that's an observation.

这是事实，这是观察。

But it's not an insight.

但这不是一种洞察力。

An insight would be something like Goodfood users who are power users are more likely to use a free shipping discount on a high GMV basket versus non-power users.

一种见解是，与非高级用户相比，作为高级用户的 Goodfood 用户更有可能在高 GMV 购物篮中使用免费送货折扣。

And that actually tells you how to change your marketing approach.

这实际上告诉你如何改变你的营销方式。

It tells you in what circumstances does someone do this When it's a high GMV basket, give power users the ability to get a free discount, but do not do this for non-powered users because they won't convert any better than they normally would.

它告诉您在什么情况下有人会这样做。当它是高 GMV 篮子时，让高级用户能够获得免费折扣，但不要对非高级用户这样做，因为他们不会比平常更好地进行转换。

So that helps you change your marketing spend, it helps you understand the decision points of power users versus non-power users.

因此，这可以帮助您改变营销支出，帮助您了解高级用户与非高级用户的决策点。

The insight is instrumenting properties into an event so that you can segment who is doing what behavior and make some hypotheses on that observation, test that hypothesis and then you get some causal representation of whether or not that hypothesis was right.

洞察力是将属性插入事件中，以便您可以细分谁在做什么行为，并根据该观察结果做出一些假设，测试该假设，然后您可以得到该假设是否正确的一些因果表示。

Lenny: The eighth most popular episode of the year is our very first episode with Julie Zhou.

Lenny：今年最受欢迎的第八集是我们与 Julie Zhou 合作的第一集。

Julie was a longtime design leader at Facebook.

Julie 是 Facebook 的长期设计领导者。

She's now the founder of a company called Sundial.

她现在是一家名为 Sundial 的公司的创始人。

She also wrote the bestseller, the Making of a Manager and her newsletter, The Looking Glass, was a huge inspiration to me that helped me start my newsletter.

她还写了畅销书《经理人的成长》，她的时事通讯《镜子》给了我巨大的启发，帮助我开始了我的时事通讯。

Here is Julie sharing her advice on getting over imposter syndrome.

朱莉分享了她关于克服冒名顶替综合症的建议。

Lenny: Going back to your time at Facebook, you've made it sound like you just kind of like, ah, I joined as a designer, figured out design became a manager, and then somehow you became VP of design and it sounded too easy.

Lenny：回想一下你在 Facebook 的时光，你的说法听起来就像是，啊，我以设计师的身份加入，后来发现设计变成了经理，然后不知何故你成为了设计副总裁，这听起来太容易了。

That's an insane trajectory for someone to follow.

对于有人来说，这是一条疯狂的轨迹。

Do you have any thoughts or advice on what contributed to your success rising through the ranks that quickly for folks that are just early in their career maybe?

对于那些刚刚进入职业生涯的人来说，是什么让你能够如此迅速地获得成功，你有什么想法或建议吗？

Julie Zhou: Absolutely.

周莉：当然。

And I want to make it really clear, I would say that the first seven or eight years that I was at Facebook every single week I felt like an imposter.

我想说得很清楚，我想说的是，我在 Facebook 的头七八年里，每周我都感觉自己像个冒名顶替者。

I had no idea really what I was doing.

我不知道自己在做什么。

The constant refrain in my head is like, well, do you really deserve to be here?

我脑子里不断地想，好吧，你真的值得来这里吗？

Do you really know what's happening?

你真的知道发生了什么事吗？

You're not really prepared for this job.

你还没有真正做好这份工作的准备。

You've never done this before.

你以前从未这样做过。

What do you have to be put in this situation and get to do what you do?

在这种情况下，你必须做什么才能做你所做的事情？

And that was really a constant refrain in my head.

这确实是我脑海中不断出现的一个念头。

Julie Zhou: But looking back, I think it probably took me about seven or eight years until I became a little bit more comfortable with that.

Julie Zhou：但是回想起来，我想我可能花了大约七八年的时间才对此感到更加适应。

After seven or eight years I could look back, I could see all of the things that I got to work on, I could see all the ways that I had grown and learned in that experience.

七八年后，我可以回顾过去，我可以看到我要做的所有事情，我可以看到我在那段经历中成长和学习的所有方式。

And something clicked for me where I realized it's kind of two sides of the same coin.

我突然灵光一闪，意识到这是同一枚硬币的两面。

Being in an uncomfortable situation, being in a position where you feel like, hey, do I really know how to do this, I'm not prepared for it, kind of coincides with the fastest and most intense periods of growth in one's career.

处于一种不舒服的境地，处于一种感觉，嘿，我真的知道如何做到这一点吗，我还没有做好准备，这与一个人职业生涯中最快、最激烈的成长时期相吻合。

I started to realize, well maybe it's not so much of a bad thing.

我开始意识到，也许这并不是一件坏事。

Maybe if I constantly putting myself in this situation where I haven't seen this problem before, that's also what's going to push me to grow and learn.

也许如果我不断地将自己置于以前从未见过这个问题的境地，这也会促使我成长和学习。

Julie Zhou: So yes, you asked for specific advice, I think there's two things.

Julie Zhou：是的，您询问了具体的建议，我认为有两件事。

The first is, well, I was lucky I was in the right place at the right time.

首先，我很幸运在正确的时间出现在正确的地点。

I was at a company that was scaling.

我在一家正在扩张的公司。

And when you're at a company that grows, there's always a lot more opportunity to then be able to try something new, to raise their hand, to volunteer for things to be just thrown into because somebody has to do it because it's a growing company and there aren't a lot of other people.

当你在一家不断成长的公司工作时，总是有更多的机会尝试新事物，举手，自愿参与一些事情，因为必须有人去做，因为这是一家不断成长的公司，而且没有很多其他人。

So the first piece of advice I would have would be like if you want those types of opportunities, sometimes you just have to be at a smaller place and you have to be at a place that is going through that rate of growth.

因此，我的第一条建议是，如果你想要这些类型的机会，有时你只需要在一个较小的地方，并且你必须在一个正在经历这种增长率的地方。

Julie Zhou: The second thing is embrace the fact that it's okay to be in a position where maybe you don't know what to do, you haven't been trained for.

Julie Zhou：第二件事是接受这样一个事实：处于一个可能你不知道该做什么、你没有接受过培训的位置是可以的。

It does coincide with that intense learning.

它确实与紧张的学习相吻合。

Maybe approach it with that sense of curiosity and that sense of, yes, it's hard, yes, I might be an imposter and I might feel that way for a while, but this is also what's going to help me get there.

也许带着好奇心和那种感觉来对待它，是的，这很难，是的，我可能是一个冒名顶替者，我可能会有这种感觉一段时间，但这也将帮助我到达那里。

It's going to be what forces me to do the work and in that process learn and become better.

这将迫使我去做工作，并在这个过程中学习并变得更好。

Lenny: It's amazing to hear that you had imposter syndrome for such a long period of time and you basically ran design for the Facebook app, right?

Lenny：听说你在很长一段时间内患有冒名顶替综合症，而且你基本上负责 Facebook 应用程序的设计，真是太令人惊讶了，对吧？

Lenny: It's kind of an empowering, inspiring insight that someone that at your level went through that for so long and made it through that.

莱尼：这是一种赋予力量、鼓舞人心的洞察力，像你这样级别的人经历了这么长时间，并且成功了。

Do you have any other advice or thoughts on just for folks that are going through that?

对于正在经历这种情况的人们，您还有其他建议或想法吗？

Because I have that to you for a number of years, just like, what the hell am I doing here?

因为我已经把这个告诉你很多年了，就像，我到底在这里做什么？

People are going to see I don't really know what I'm doing and it's all going to crumble as soon as I make my next mistake.

人们会发现我并不真正知道自己在做什么，一旦我犯下一个错误，一切都会崩溃。

Do you have any other advice there for folks going through that themselves?

对于那些自己经历过这种情况的人，您还有其他建议吗？

Julie Zhou: I think that so much of just exactly what you said, Lenny, I think so much of it that helped me was realizing that everyone feels this way to some extent.

朱莉·周：我认为你所说的，莱尼，我认为对我有很大帮助的是，我意识到每个人都在某种程度上有这种感觉。

And that's also why I always want to talk about that.

这也是我总是想谈论这个的原因。

Because I feel like sometimes you can see from the outside you're like, oh, this person has this title, they have this position, they have these responsibilities.

因为我觉得有时你可以从外面看到，哦，这个人有这个头衔，他们有这个职位，他们有这些责任。

Clearly they've made it, they know what they're doing.

显然他们已经做到了，他们知道自己在做什么。

But that's never the case.

但事实并非如此。

Julie Zhou: I mean, logically, let's think about it.

Julie Zhou：我的意思是，从逻辑上来说，让我们考虑一下。

If you're going to do anything new for the first time, how are you ever going to feel totally comfortable, totally prepared?

如果你要第一次做任何新的事情，你怎样才能感到完全舒服、完全准备好呢？

Every time there's something new that you hadn't encountered before it's always going to be a little bit rough, you're never going to feel like perfectly at ease.

每当遇到以前从未遇到过的新事物时，总会有点困难，你永远不会感到完全放松。

It's only upon doing something multiple times that you start to see the patterns, you start to realize, okay, it's going to be all right.

只有多次重复做某件事，你才会开始看到其中的模式，你才会开始意识到，好吧，一切都会好起来的。

Even now, the people that I talk to, the people I really look up to, the people who I think are role models and mentors for me, I mean they regularly also share with me that it's the same.

即使是现在，那些与我交谈的人，那些我真正尊敬的人，那些我认为是我的榜样和导师的人，我的意思是他们也经常与我分享这是一样的。

They still encounter things that are unprecedented.

他们还是遇到了前所未有的事情。

If we work in tech, I mean the rate of change, the rate of the industry and companies and these new experiences that we have, that never goes away.

如果我们从事科技行业，我指的是变化的速度、行业和公司的速度以及我们拥有的这些新体验，它们永远不会消失。

That's just par for the course.

这只是课程的标准。

So I think that feeling always exists.

所以我认为这种感觉一直存在。

Julie Zhou: What I have learned is that there are better tools in your toolkit for dealing with it.

Julie Zhou：我了解到你们的工具包里有更好的工具来处理这个问题。

One of them is of course me just reminding myself that if I feel uncomfortable, okay, other people feel that way too.

其中之一当然是我只是提醒自己，如果我感到不舒服，好吧，其他人也会有同样的感觉。

Everyone does.

每个人都这样做。

It's totally natural.

这是完全自然的。

But then to also find other pieces in that toolkit.

但随后还要在该工具包中找到其他部分。

One is I am much better at asking for help now than I was earlier in my career.

一是我现在比职业生涯早期更善于寻求帮助。

I used to actually just try and hold it all in.

我曾经实际上只是尝试着把这一切都忍住。

I was like, hey, I better fake it till I make it.

我当时想，嘿，我最好假装它，直到我成功。

If everyone thinks that maybe I'm coming to the table like I know it then I can fool them.

如果每个人都认为我可能会像我知道的那样来到谈判桌，那么我可以愚弄他们。

Julie Zhou: Now I realize I was preventing myself from being able to get that support and that empathy and that camaraderie and that advice that would've helped me actually grow faster and maybe with a little bit less pain in the process.

朱莉·周：现在我意识到我正在阻止自己获得支持、同理心、友情和建议，而这些建议实际上可以帮助我更快地成长，也许在这个过程中可以少一点痛苦。

So one of the things I've learned is it's okay to ask for help.

所以我学到的一件事是寻求帮助是可以的。

It's okay to reach out to people who both may be going through the same things you're going or maybe are a step or two ahead of you in the journey, who have actually gone through that and have lived to tell the tale and can tell you it's going to be okay.

联系那些可能正在经历同样事情的人，或者可能在旅途中比你领先一两步的人，他们实际上已经经历过这些事情，并且活下来讲述了这个故事，并且可以告诉你一切都会好起来的，这是可以的。

Because often that's just what you need, you just need people to tell you it's going to be fine.

因为通常这正是您所需要的，您只需要人们告诉您一切都会好起来的。

You're fine.

你很好。

You're good.

你很厉害。

You've got this.

你已经得到了这个。

That's so meaningful whenever we sometimes feel down about ourselves.

每当我们有时对自己感到沮丧时，这都是非常有意义的。

So that's another, I would say tool in the toolkit, asking for help, finding groups of support.

所以这是另一个工具，我想说的是工具包中的工具，寻求帮助，寻找支持团体。

Julie Zhou: And then I think the third is it's also okay to just be vulnerable and just talk to people about.

Julie Zhou：然后我认为第三点是，表现出脆弱并与人谈论也没关系。

I found that some of the most meaningful conversations I had, whether with people at managers or whether with my own reports is when we can be much more open about what it is that we find hard, what are we struggling with?

我发现，无论是与经理人员还是与我自己的报告，我进行的一些最有意义的对话是当我们可以更加开放地谈论我们发现的困难是什么，我们正在努力解决什么问题时？

And in that way you actually form deeper connections and people are more able to help out.

通过这种方式，你实际上可以建立更深层次的联系，人们也更能够提供帮助。

We can spread the load a little bit.

我们可以稍微分散一下负载。

We can put our heads together and brainstorm a better way to solve the problem.

我们可以集思广益，集思广益，找出更好的方法来解决问题。

And I find that too, even as the head of a department or a founder, it's not going to solve everything myself.

我也发现，即使作为部门负责人或创始人，我自己也无法解决所有问题。

I'm never going to have all the answers.

我永远不会得到所有的答案。

Sometimes by just sharing what the problem is by sharing the load, we're all going to collectively come up with a better solution.

有时，通过分担负载来共享问题所在，我们就能共同提出更好的解决方案。

Lenny: Next up is Shishir Mehrotra, CEO of Coda, former VP of product and engineering at YouTube, PM at Microsoft.

Lenny：下一位是 Shishir Mehrotra，Coda 首席执行官、YouTube 前产品和工程副总裁、微软产品经理。

And here are two my favorite clips from Shishir.

这是 Shishir 中我最喜欢的两个片段。

One where he shares his favorite interview question using a technique called Eigenquestions and his PHSE career growth framework.

其中，他使用一种称为特征问题的技术和他的 PHSE 职业发展框架分享了他最喜欢的面试问题。

Shishir Mehrotra: I have an interview question I ask, it's a very simple question and it's a coded Eigenquestions test.

Shishir Mehrotra：我有一个面试问题，这是一个非常简单的问题，也是一个编码的特征问题测试。

And the question is, a group of scientists have invented a teleportation device.

问题是，一群科学家发明了一种隐形传输装置。

They've hired you, Lenny, to be they're sort of business counterpart, bring this to market, product this question actually worked well for .

他们雇佣了你，莱尼，作为他们的业务伙伴，将这个产品推向市场，这个问题实际上很有效。

But say, you could be the product manager for this thing, bring it to market.

但是，比如说，你可以成为这个东西的产品经理，将其推向市场。

What do you do?

你做什么工作？

That's the whole question.

这就是整个问题。

Usually people will start asking a bunch of questions and say, well, tell me more about this device.

通常人们会开始问一堆问题并说，好吧，告诉我更多关于这个设备的信息。

What does it do?

它有什么作用？

How does it work?

它是如何运作的？

And is it big?

而且它大吗？

Is it small?

它小吗？

Is it fast?

快吗？

Does it disintegrate things or not?

它是否会瓦解事物？

Does it need a receiver and a sender?

它需要接收者和发送者吗？

Is it safe?

安全吗？

Shishir Mehrotra: I'll just let those questions come out and at some point I'll say, okay, nice job generating all the questions.

Shishir Mehrotra：我会让这些问题出来，在某个时候我会说，好吧，很好地提出了所有问题。

Turns out these scientists, they kind of hate talking to people and they're kind of annoyed by all your questions.

事实证明，这些科学家有点讨厌与人交谈，并且对你所有的问题感到恼火。

And so they've decided that they will answer only two of your questions and after that they expect a plan.

所以他们决定只回答你的两个问题，然后他们期待一个计划。

What two questions do you ask?

你问哪两个问题？

And interestingly, all of a sudden, like the sharp product managers, engineers, basically every role, they very quickly find what are the two, one or two eigenquestions on this topic.

有趣的是，突然之间，就像敏锐的产品经理、工程师一样，基本上每个角色，他们很快就找到了关于这个主题的两个、一两个特征问题。

Shishir Mehrotra: There's no right answer, but I'll tell you one of my favorite ones is as a product manager said, okay, if I had to ask two questions, the two questions I would ask, one is it safe enough for humans or not?

Shishir Mehrotra：没有正确的答案，但我会告诉你我最喜欢的一个是产品经理所说的，好吧，如果我必须问两个问题，我会问的两个问题，一个对人类来说足够安全吗？

And that was a very crisp way to get to just safety.

这是获得安全的一种非常快捷的方式。

How reliable is it?

它有多可靠？

Didn't ask how reliable it is, how many bits in the middle of this...

没有问它有多可靠，这中间有多少位......

He's like, just tell me it's safe enough for humans or not.

他就像，只要告诉我这对人类来说是否足够安全。

And the second one is it more expensive CapEx or OpEx?

第二个是资本支出更贵还是运营支出更贵？

Is it more expensive to buy them or to run them?

购买它们更贵还是运行它们更贵？

Shishir Mehrotra: And then he took those two questions and he said, get with those two questions, I can form these quadrants.

Shishir Mehrotra：然后他回答了这两个问题，他说，解决了这两个问题，我就可以形成这些象限。

And you can say, oh, it's safe enough for humans and they're very cheap to buy, but expensive to run.

你可以说，哦，这对人类来说足够安全，而且购买它们非常便宜，但运行起来却很昂贵。

Then you probably run them like human fax machines.

然后你可能会像人类传真机一样运行它们。

You put them everywhere you can and you say, hey look, it's expensive to use but you'll all have the ability to teleport anywhere you want and this is how we're going to run it.

你把它们放在任何地方，你会说，嘿，看，使用起来很昂贵，但你们都可以传送到任何你想要的地方，这就是我们运行它的方式。

But the other hand, they're very expensive to buy, but cheap to run.

但另一方面，它们的购买成本非常昂贵，但运行成本却很便宜。

You probably have to place them very strategically, in which case what you probably do is replace airports.

你可能必须非常有策略地放置它们，在这种情况下你可能要做的就是更换机场。

Airports are pretty strategically placed in places where people are trying to get around places.

机场地理位置优越，位于人们试图出行的地方。

If it's not safe enough for humans, then you've got a whole different class of use cases where you go value what goods are transported in very costly ways.

如果它对人类来说不够安全，那么您就会遇到一类完全不同的用例，您会重视以非常昂贵的方式运输的货物。

And people come up with, do you do the most expensive things?

人们会问，你做最昂贵的事情吗？

Is hell supporting people's replacement hearts, is that a really demanding thing?

地狱支持人更换心脏，这真的是一件很困难的事情吗？

But these two questions kind of get to the heart of it.

但这两个问题触及了问题的核心。

Shishir Mehrotra: The question's totally made up, no teleportation device exists, at least not yet.

Shishir Mehrotra：这个问题完全是编造的，传送装置不存在，至少现在还不存在。

I find that people's ability to learn the method is significantly higher if it's low stakes.

我发现，如果风险较低，人们学习该方法的能力就会显着提高。

That question by the way, if you ask a kid that question, hey, teleportation device, you get to ask two questions, almost every kid will quickly get to two pretty good eigenquestions.

顺便说一句，如果你问一个孩子这个问题，嘿，传送装置，你会问两个问题，几乎每个孩子都会很快得到两个很好的特征问题。

Kids are incredibly good at simplifying these things down, it's actually a skill we remove from ourself.

孩子们非常擅长简化这些事情，这实际上是我们从自己身上消除的一项技能。

I'll hear candidates tell me things, I guess I would ask them what size it is and why would you ask them what size?

我会听到候选人告诉我一些事情，我想我会问他们尺寸是多少，你为什么要问他们尺寸是多少？

What decision is that going to allow you to make, to know what size?

你可以做出什么决定，知道尺寸是多少？

And sometimes they can explain it, sometimes not and don't get hired.

有时他们可以解释，有时则不能，因此不会被雇用。

But then actually the thing I'd say about it is there are eigenquestions everywhere.

但实际上我想说的是，到处都存在本征问题。

I mean you can take any product out there, I'll do it with my kids a lot, and they'll say, I was just riding with my younger daughter and she said, how come there's three gas stations in the same corner?

我的意思是你可以把任何产品带到那里，我会经常和我的孩子们一起做，他们会说，我只是和我的小女儿一起骑车，她说，为什么同一个角落有三个加油站？

Why do people do that?

人们为什么要这么做？

That's a really insightful observation.

这是一个非常有洞察力的观察。

What's the eigenquestion?

什么是本征问题？

How do you place a gas station you can almost take anything and say, what is the question that really drives this answer.

你如何放置一个加油站，你几乎可以拿任何东西说，真正驱动这个答案的问题是什么。

Shishir Mehrotra: It stands for problem, solution, how, execution, PSHE.

Shishir Mehrotra：它代表问题、解决方案、方式、执行、PSHE。

So here's how it works.

这就是它的工作原理。

So if you're sort of a junior product manager, what happens?

那么，如果你是一名初级产品经理，会发生什么？

You get handed a problem, you get handed a solution, you get handed the how, go talk to this person, write this document, run this meeting, so on.

你会得到一个问题，你会得到一个解决方案，你会得到如何做，去和这个人交谈，写这个文档，召开这个会议，等等。

And all you have to do is execute, run that playbook and that's all we expect out of you.

您所要做的就是执行、运行该剧本，这就是我们对您的期望。

You can become a little more senior, we hand you a problem, we hand you a rough solution, you figure out the how.

你可以变得更高级一点，我们给你一个问题，我们给你一个粗略的解决方案，你弄清楚如何做。

You figure out the how we're going to organize this?

你知道我们要如何组织这个活动吗？

What are the milestones?

里程碑是什么？

How we're going to get it to market?

我们如何将其推向市场？

How we're going to the meetings?

我们如何去参加会议？

What are the rituals?

有哪些仪式？

All those things show up in the H.

所有这些都出现在 H.

Shishir Mehrotra: At some point you become a little more senior, we hand you a problem and you come back with the solutions and we judge you on the creativity and the effectiveness of the solutions.

Shishir Mehrotra：当你变得更资深时，我们给你一个问题，你带着解决方案回来，我们根据解决方案的创造力和有效性来评判你。

And at some point you're senior enough that you tell us the problems and you say, hey, I know you told me to go work on activation, but actually I think our issue is brand or I think our issue is quality or I think our issue is whatever it might be, and that's sort of the pinnacle of this way of thinking about it.

在某个时候，你的资历足够高，你告诉我们问题，然后你说，嘿，我知道你告诉我去激活，但实际上我认为我们的问题是品牌，或者我认为我们的问题是质量，或者我认为我们的问题是任何可能的问题，这就是这种思考方式的顶峰。

Shishir Mehrotra: Now just back to this picture for a moment, one of the interesting things that happened was the teams went and they evaluated their teams on these two ax axis and they end up with this sort of curved line between them.

Shishir Mehrotra：现在回到这张图片，发生的有趣的事情之一是团队去评估他们在这两个轴上的团队，最终在它们之间形成了这种曲线。

It's not linear as you work your way through.

当你按照自己的方式工作时，它不是线性的。

And what happens is early in people's career, they mostly sit at that E point, you get handed a problem and handed a solution, handed a how, and you just execute and they gradually grow in skill.

发生的事情发生在人们职业生涯的早期，他们大多处于那个 E 点，你收到一个问题，收到一个解决方案，收到一个如何做，你只需执行，他们的技能就会逐渐增长。

Later in people's careers, similarly, you're at that P level, just do bigger and bigger products.

同样，在人们职业生涯的后期，你处于 P 级别，只是做越来越大的产品。

And it's like the job of being an entrepreneur or CEO or an owner or so on is just kind of do bigger and bigger projects.

就像企业家、首席执行官或所有者等的工作就是做越来越大的项目。

Shishir Mehrotra: But in the middle the slope changes and all of a sudden it's not really about scope, it's about PSHE.

Shishir Mehrotra：但在中间，斜率发生了变化，突然间，它就不再是范围的问题了，而是 PSHE 的问题了。

And there's a circle drawn here for what I like to call the trough of dissolution.

这里画了一个圆圈，我称之为溶解的低谷。

What happens in that phase, I was talking to the calibration companies about this, the reason we call the trough of dissolution is for the employee, for the person, this is a confusing time.

在那个阶段发生了什么，我正在和校准公司谈论这个，我们之所以称之为解散的低谷，是因为对于员工，对于个人来说，这是一个令人困惑的时期。

Everything about leading up to this moment from high school and college has been about scope.

从高中和大学到这一刻的一切都与范围有关。

And at this point you're all of a sudden told, we're not judging you on scope anymore, we're judging you on this PSHE thing.

这时你突然被告知，我们不再根据范围来评判你，我们根据 PSHE 的事情来评判你。

That's very confusing.

这非常令人困惑。

Shishir Mehrotra: To the calibrator, to the manager, it's also very confusing because all of a sudden the way I put it is the difference between a level three and a level seven may not be scoped.

Shishir Mehrotra：对于校准器、经理来说，这也非常令人困惑，因为突然之间，我所说的三级和七级之间的差异可能无法确定范围。

They may do the exact same job, it's how they do the job that matters and here's some language for how they do the job.

他们可能做完全相同的工作，重要的是他们如何做工作，这里有一些关于他们如何做工作的语言。

So PSHE became a very sticky way of thinking about it.

因此，PSHE 成为一种非常粘性的思考方式。

It turns out that this way of evaluating people is actually not that specific to product management.

事实证明，这种评价人的方式其实并不是产品管理特有的。

It's really easy to see why you do the exact same thing for engineers and designers and so on.

很容易理解为什么你要为工程师和设计师等做同样的事情。

But to pick one that may not be as obvious, I'll pick salespeople.

但要选择一个可能不那么明显的人，我会选择销售人员。

A very common thing people do with salespeople is they evaluate them based on quota attainment.

人们对销售人员做的一个非常常见的事情是根据配额完成情况来评估他们。

It's like the easiest thing to do is take the salespeople and rank them by who hit their quota and who didn't.

就像最简单的事情就是对销售人员进行排名，根据谁达到了配额，谁没有达到配额。

Shishir Mehrotra: You go ask the sales team, who's the best salesperson and what you'll realize, and they'll say, quota statement is just a signal for how good you negotiate your quota and pick the right territory.

Shishir Mehrotra：你去问销售团队，谁是最好的销售人员以及你会意识到什么，他们会说，配额声明只是一个信号，表明你协商配额和选择正确的区域有多好。

And they say, really, you want to know who's a best salesperson.

他们说，真的，你想知道谁是最好的销售人员。

They say, well, so and so, I mean she can sell anything and she can be in the region that's growing or the region that's shrinking or the new product or the old product.

他们说，嗯，某某，我的意思是她可以卖任何东西，她可以在正在增长的地区或正在萎缩的地区或新产品或旧产品。

If you think about that terminology, it's very similar to PSHE thinking.

如果您考虑一下这个术语，就会发现它与 PSHE 思维非常相似。

This is the person who can come into a new space, identify the right problems and solve them.

这是能够进入新空间、识别正确问题并解决它们的人。

That's what makes a really great salesperson.

这就是成为一名真正出色的销售人员的原因。

So it could become my framework for evaluating talent in sort of all sorts of ways.

因此，它可以成为我以各种方式评估人才的框架。

You might recognize a pattern of being a great P thinker, it's very correlated with being good with eigenquestions.

您可能会认识到成为出色的 P 思考者的一种模式，它与善于解决特征问题密切相关。

Can you spot the right problems is very similar to can you spot the right questions?

你能发现正确的问题与你能发现正确的问题非常相似吗？

Can you decide what's important?

你能决定什么是重要的吗？

Lenny: Our sixth most popular episode is with Kristen Berman, founder of Irrational Labs on using behavioral science to improve your product.

Lenny：我们最受欢迎的第六集是 Irrational Labs 创始人 Kristen Berman 讲述如何利用行为科学来改进你的产品。

Here is Kristen describing the three Bs of behavioral change.

克里斯汀 (Kristen) 描述了行为改变的三个 B。

Kristen Berman: There are so many mistakes that humans make and we can call them biases, heuristics, our team uses psychologies.

克里斯汀·伯曼：人类会犯很多错误，我们可以称之为偏见、启发法，我们的团队使用心理学。

What are the psychologies that drive us?

驱动我们的心理是什么？

And so to tackle this, our team basically has created a model of behavior change we call the three Bs.

因此，为了解决这个问题，我们的团队基本上创建了一个行为改变模型，我们称之为“三个 B”。

And this summarizes the most important psychologies that drive user that are important to the product managers and the marketers.

这总结了驱动用户的最重要的心理，这对产品经理和营销人员来说很重要。

We've used this at Google, Microsoft, LinkedIn, so all the companies that we work with and they now use it.

我们已经在谷歌、微软、LinkedIn 等公司使用过它，所有与我们合作的公司现在都在使用它。

Kristen Berman: So the first B of three Bs framework, first B is actually not a psychology, but it is the most important part of behavior change and it should kind of be obvious.

Kristen Berman：所以三个B框架中的第一个B，第一个B实际上不是心理学，但它是行为改变最重要的部分，它应该是显而易见的。

If you think about behavior change, behavioral economics, it is behavior.

如果你考虑行为改变、行为经济学，那就是行为。

In order to change behavior, you have to pick a behavior that you want to change.

为了改变行为，你必须选择你想要改变的行为。

So companies are really good at outcomes, but just not as sharp at picking the behavior.

因此，公司确实擅长结果，但不擅长选择行为。

Kristen Berman: And when I say behavior, I mean action.

克里斯汀·伯曼：当我说行为时，我指的是行动。

The thing that you want someone to do, by the way, the only wrong answer here is log in.

顺便说一句，您希望某人做的事情，这里唯一错误的答案是登录。

So it's really, it's not about logging in, it's about what you do after you log in.

所以，这实际上不是登录的问题，而是登录后您要做的事情。

And when we're consulting teams would be like, we need to get uncomfortably specific.

当我们咨询团队时，我们需要变得非常具体。

We say just really specific in the behavior.

我们说的只是行为上的具体。

So example, if I'm Peloton PM and I'm working on the app, I would say something like within 7 days of somebody starting the app they do 2, 10 minute workouts with two different instructors.

例如，如果我是 Peloton PM 并且正在开发该应用程序，我会说有人启动该应用程序后 7 天内，他们会与两位不同的教练进行 2、10 分钟的锻炼。

Now obviously that is wildly specific and you'd probably be very happy if they did one workout with one instructor, but the reality is if you don't define that behavior, you're going to change, you can't actually define the psychologies that affects someone's decision making when doing that behavior.

显然，这是非常具体的，如果他们和一位教练一起进行一次锻炼，你可能会非常高兴，但现实是，如果你不定义这种行为，你就会改变，你实际上无法定义影响某人在进行这种行为时做出决策的心理。

So that's a first B.

所以这是第一个B。

Kristen Berman: Second B, again, is probably pretty obvious and is very critical, it's just barriers.

Kristen Berman：第二个 B 再次可能非常明显并且非常关键，这只是障碍。

So we need to reduce the barriers to doing the behavior.

所以我们需要减少做这种行为的障碍。

And there are two types of barriers we look at.

我们关注两种类型的障碍。

One is logistical, so this is just the stuff in our way could be entering a credit card, could be any form field.

一个是后勤方面的，所以这只是我们可以输入信用卡的东西，可以是任何表单字段。

And then the second is cognitive.

第二个是认知。

So the cognitive barriers get in our way as well.

因此，认知障碍也会阻碍我们。

These are things like uncertainty aversion, this is optimism bias, information aversion.

这些是诸如不确定性厌恶、乐观偏见、信息厌恶之类的事情。

Status quo, big one.

现状，大一。

It's just you do the same thing today that you did yesterday, your job-

只是你今天做了和昨天一样的事情，你的工作——

Lenny: Can you talk about those three you just threw out there, just briefly?

莱尼：你能简单地谈谈你刚刚扔掉的那三个吗？

I'm curious about the specific biases while were there.

我很好奇在那里的具体偏见。

Kristen Berman: Yeah, so uncertainty aversion, when something is uncertain or we're not...

克里斯汀·伯曼：是的，当某些事情不确定或者我们不……时，就会厌恶不确定性。

So I'll give you an example.

所以我给你举个例子。

If you're Lift, there's logistical friction, which is wait time.

如果您是 Lift，就会遇到后勤摩擦，即等待时间。

But then there's also this uncertainty of is it going to come on time?

但也存在这样的不确定性：它是否会按时到来？

When is it going to come?

什么时候会来？

And with this uncertainty, you're probably going to look for other options.

考虑到这种不确定性，您可能会寻找其他选择。

You're going to open up Uber and say like maybe it'll come faster.

你会打开 Uber 并说也许它会来得更快。

And so when there is uncertainty in our life, we either look for other options or we just don't make a decision at all.

因此，当我们的生活存在不确定性时，我们要么寻找其他选择，要么根本不做出决定。

This is by the way, very big in healthcare where when you're very uncertain about something, you may not even go to the doctor or you may just make the wrong decision.

顺便说一句，这在医疗保健领域非常重要，当您对某件事非常不确定时，您甚至可能不会去看医生，或者您可能会做出错误的决定。

Kristen Berman: Same with status quo effect.

克里斯汀·伯曼：与现状效应相同。

Where we kind of underlying status quo effect is this idea that we always take the path, not always but majority of...

我们潜在的现状效应是这样的想法：我们总是走这条路，不是总是，而是大多数……

You don't really say always when you're talking about human behavior.

当你谈论人类行为时，你并没有真正说总是。

Human behavior is very complex.

人类行为非常复杂。

But more often than not, we take the path of least resistant.

但更多时候，我们会选择阻力最小的道路。

So we do the thing that's easiest and typically the thing that's easiest, it's the thing that we've done yesterday and the day before.

所以我们做最简单的事情，通常是最简单的事情，就是我们昨天和前天做的事情。

So when you're asking someone to do something different, which is what most product, especially startups, are trying to do, you actually have to increase their motivation or make it easier, reduce the barriers to get them to do that.

因此，当你要求某人做一些不同的事情时，这也是大多数产品，尤其是初创公司都试图做的事情，你实际上必须增加他们的动力或者让事情变得更容易，减少让他们这样做的障碍。

And so status quo effect, it's a big, big one that folks are fighting.

因此，人们正在为现状效应而奋斗。

Lenny: Awesome, thanks for sharing this.

莱尼：太棒了，谢谢分享。

Kristen Berman: The third B is benefits.

Kristen Berman：第三个 B 是福利。

So this is where you want to increase the not just benefits, but the immediate benefits of doing something.

因此，这就是您不仅要增加收益，还要增加做某事的直接收益的地方。

So we are all present bias, which means we prioritize our present self over our future self.

所以我们都有现在的偏见，这意味着我们优先考虑现在的自己而不是未来的自己。

So there are plenty of reasons that somebody, your customer, your user should take an action, but you actually have to give them a reason to take an action today.

因此，某人、你的客户、你的用户应该有很多理由采取行动，但你实际上必须给他们一个今天采取行动的理由。

So as an example, if you're Asana and you're trying to get someone to log a task, the right thing for them to do is log the task because it's going to get their project done on time.

举个例子，如果你是 Asana，并且你试图让某人记录任务，那么他们正确的做法就是记录任务，因为这将按时完成他们的项目。

You're going to have a collaborative and communicative team that you're going to want to be on.

您将拥有一个您想要加入的协作和沟通团队。

But one of the real reasons we may log a task is because of completion bias, we want to see the checkbox.

但我们记录任务的真正原因之一是由于完成偏差，我们希望看到复选框。

We may log it because of social desirability bias, where other people see that we're getting our work done, there's a notification that goes to my teammate when I complete something.

我们可能会因为社会期望偏见而记录它，其他人看到我们正在完成工作，当我完成某件事时，我的队友会收到一条通知。

So these are the immediate benefits that we have to build into products and features to drive use.

因此，这些是我们必须构建到产品和功能中以推动使用的直接好处。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I definitely have completion bias, I left checking those freaking check boxes.

我肯定有完成偏差，我留下了那些该死的复选框。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。

If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.

如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被询问或将被询问有关 SOC 2 合规性的问题。

SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.

SOC 2 是一种证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任的方法。

Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.

此外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。

SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.

SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。

If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.

如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能甚至无法获得席位。

Lenny: Beginning a SOC 2 report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.

Lenny：开始 SOC 2 报告可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。

It's time consuming, tedious and expensive.

这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。

Enter Vanta.

输入万塔。

Over 3000 fast growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.

超过 3000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.

Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。

For a limited time Lenny's Podcast listeners, get $1,000 off Vanta.

Lenny's Podcast 听众限时享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元。

Just go to vanta.com/Lenny, that's V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny to learn more and to claim your discount.

只需访问vanta.com/Lenny（即V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny）即可了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: The fifth most popular episode of the year is with the great Elena Verna on B2B growth.

Lenny：今年第五受欢迎的剧集是伟大的 Elena Verna 讲述 B2B 增长的节目。

Elena is currently head of growth at Amplitude.

Elena 目前是 Amplitude 的增长主管。

Prior to that, she was CMO at Miro, she was senior vice president of growth at SurveyMonkey and she might be the smartest person in the world on B2B growth.

在此之前，她曾担任 Miro 的首席营销官、SurveyMonkey 的增长高级副总裁，她可能是世界上 B2B 增长方面最聪明的人。

Just putting that out there.

只是把它放在那里。

Here are two clips from Elena.

这是埃琳娜的两个片段。

The first on why retention is so important to your product and why it's so important to get right.

第一个是关于为什么保留对你的产品如此重要以及为什么正确如此重要。

And the second on what to put into your freemium product versus your paid product.

第二个是关于在免费增值产品和付费产品中添加哪些内容。

Elena Verna: I think every single company has to first focus on being product led and retention, period.

Elena Verna：我认为每家公司都必须首先关注产品主导和保留，就这样。

The only way that you will ever have any chance of acquisition being product led is if you nail your product led retention.

获得以产品为主导的客户的唯一方法就是确定以产品为主导的保留率。

Let me break it down.

让我来分解一下。

Retention falls into two main KPIs, which is activation and then engagement.

留存率分为两个主要 KPI，即激活和参与。

If your product is not able to activate and more importantly engage via habitual loops and be in the habit forming zone, then you'll have no chance to hooking an acquisition engine into your product.

如果您的产品无法激活，更重要的是无法通过习惯循环参与并处于习惯形成区域，那么您将没有机会将获取引擎挂接到您的产品中。

Because acquisition and product led means users and buy it or users refer or users create content that attracts other users.

因为获取和产品主导意味着用户购买它或用户推荐或用户创建吸引其他用户的内容。

Elena Verna: Well, if your users are not habitually using your product, there's less and less opportunities for you to actually create any sort of product led acquisition.

Elena Verna：嗯，如果你的用户不习惯使用你的产品，那么你真正创建任何类型的产品主导收购的机会就会越来越少。

So never start with product led acquisition.

因此，永远不要从产品主导的收购开始。

You first always have to start with product led retention, activation, and engagement.

您首先必须从产品主导的保留、激活和参与开始。

Then you can choose, is your product has a relationship of one to many?

那么你可以选择，你的产品是一对多的关系吗？

If it has a collaboration at its core, say Slack or Miro or even the Amplitude.

如果它的核心是协作，比如 Slack 或 Miro 甚至 Amplitude。

Or does it have more of a single mode relationship?

或者它有更多的单一模式关系吗？

So let's say Snowflake, there is not one to many relationships there between users.

比如说 Snowflake，用户之间不存在一对多的关系。

Well, if you have one to many relationships, product led is a fantastic way for you to prototype that model.

好吧，如果您有一对多的关系，那么以产品为主导是您构建该模型原型的绝佳方式。

If you don't have them, then it becomes increasingly hard.

如果你没有它们，那么事情就会变得越来越困难。

Most of the B2B products don't have that one to many relationship, so it's very difficult to stand up product led acquisition.

大多数 B2B 产品不存在一对多的关系，因此很难维持以产品为主导的收购。

So you rely on marketing led and sales led and that's fantastic, those are fantastic growth models as well.

所以你依靠营销主导和销售主导，这太棒了，这些也是很棒的增长模式。

Elena Verna: The only other question becomes in the self-serve monetization, that's product led.

Elena Verna：唯一的另一个问题是自助货币化，即以产品为主导。

Otherwise you go in the sales led and you chase after those large contract values.

否则，你就会以销售为主导，追逐那些大额合同价值。

And you can still be product led and monetization with sales team via product led sales or you can just be self-serve if you have a specific segment that is valuable for.

您仍然可以通过产品主导的销售来以产品为主导并与销售团队一起货币化，或者如果您有一个有价值的特定细分市场，您也可以只提供自助服务。

But the question there is your use cases and your market matureness to handle self-serve or do you need that sales touch?

但问题是你的用例和你的市场成熟度来处理自助服务，或者你是否需要销售接触？

Every industry and every sector is going through transformation at different velocities.

每个行业、每个部门都在以不同的速度经历转型。

So even if you don't have that product like sales or self-serve in your industry now, I guarantee you it will pop up in the next 10 years.

因此，即使您所在行业现在没有销售或自助服务等产品，我向您保证它会在未来 10 年内出现。

And if you are not going to introduce it, you will get disrupted by it.

如果你不打算介绍它，你就会被它打乱。

Lenny: For a product leader or founder who's thinking about what they should make free in their freemium model, do you have kind of a mental model of how you think about here's what you should make free?

Lenny：对于正在思考应该在免费增值模式中免费提供什么内容的产品领导者或创始人来说，您是否有一种思维模式来思考应该免费提供什么内容？

Or, is that too big of a question for a quick answer?

或者，这个问题太大而无法快速回答吗？

Elena Verna: So I mean you first have to align on what your strategic value of free is.

Elena Verna：所以我的意思是，你首先必须确定免费的战略价值是什么。

I do have a general framework of saying freemium has to check one of these boxes.

我确实有一个总体框架，说免费增值必须选中这些框之一。

Does it help my indirect monetization?

它对我的间接货币化有帮助吗？

So some sort of virality or network effects.

所以某种病毒式传播或网络效应。

If it does, I'm probably going to make it free.

如果是的话，我可能会把它免费。

Does it suffice for every single user regardless of their complexity?

无论用户的复杂程度如何，它是否足以满足每个用户的需求？

If it does, then it's probably commoditization of the feature anyways and I should make it free.

如果确实如此，那么无论如何它都可能是该功能的商品化，我应该将其免费。

Does it help my aha moment?

这对我的顿悟有帮助吗？

If it does, then I definitely want to have a POC as part of my free and I'm going to put it in the free offering.

如果确实如此，那么我肯定希望将 POC 作为我的免费产品的一部分，并且我会将其放入免费产品中。

Does it create habit loops for me?

它会给我造成习惯循环吗？

So let's say notifications or some sort of channel communication.

比如说通知或某种渠道通信。

If it does, then I'm probably going to put it for free.

如果确实如此，那么我可能会免费提供它。

So anything that actually creates friction for my growth model, I'll probably gate it in the paid.

因此，任何真正给我的增长模式带来摩擦的事情，我可能都会将其纳入付费范围。

Anything that promotes my growth model, I will put it into free.

任何促进我的成长模式的东西，我都会免费投入。

Now it is very heavily dependent on your actual monetization strategies.

现在它在很大程度上取决于您的实际货币化策略。

So it's a little bit of over encompassing statement, but at the end of the day, I'm thinking about it very much.

所以这有点过于包罗万象，但归根结底，我对此进行了很多思考。

How does free help me achieve my growth model outcomes without sacrificing monetization potential?

免费如何帮助我在不牺牲盈利潜力的情况下实现增长模式的成果？

Lenny: Our fourth most popular episode of the year.

莱尼：我们今年第四受欢迎的剧集。

Just to put this out there, the next three have came in really close to each other so you can kind of mix and match them in order.

只是为了说明这一点，接下来的三个彼此非常接近，因此您可以按顺序混合和匹配它们。

But at this point, the fourth most popular episode of the year is with Ethan Smith, CEO of Graphite, and just general SEO guru.

但在这一点上，今年第四受欢迎的剧集是 Graphite 首席执行官伊森·史密斯 (Ethan Smith) 的节目，他也是一般的 SEO 大师。

Here are two clips from Ethan, one on how people often under invest in SEO.

以下是伊森 (Ethan) 的两段视频，其中一段讲述了人们如何在 SEO 上投资不足。

And two, signs that SEO might be right for your product.

第二，有迹象表明 SEO 可能适合您的产品。

Ethan Smith: I think people under resource SEO a lot of times and over resource ads.

伊森·史密斯：我认为人们多次关注资源搜索引擎优化，而不是资源广告。

So if you're Zillow, you're going to spend tens of millions of dollars on ads, or if you're eBay, you're going to spend tens of millions of dollars on ads.

因此，如果你是 Zillow，你将在广告上花费数千万美元，或者如果你是 eBay，你将在广告上花费数千万美元。

Why would you not have a really great SEO team?

为什么你没有一支真正优秀的 SEO 团队呢？

Like the amount of traffic you get is probably equal to that.

就像你获得的流量可能等于这个。

So if you're going to spend a hundred billion on ads, why would you spend $50,000 on SEO?

因此，如果您要在广告上花费 1000 亿美元，为什么要在 SEO 上花费 50,000 美元呢？

That doesn't make sense.

这没有道理。

Lenny: What are just attributes of a product or a company that tell you that SEO could be a growth driver or a massive growth driver?

Lenny：产品或公司的哪些属性告诉您 SEO 可以成为增长动力或巨大的增长动力？

Because I imagine SEO isn't useful for everybody.

因为我认为 SEO 并不对每个人都有用。

How do you think about that?

您对此有何看法？

Ethan Smith: There's two big things.

伊森·史密斯：有两件大事。

The first thing is the addressable market large, SO'S the addressable market for SEO large?

首先是潜在市场大，SEO 的潜在市场大吗？

And for most categories it is.

对于大多数类别来说都是如此。

The second is, do you have authority, you have existing traction?

第二个是，你有权威吗？你有现有的吸引力吗？

If you start from zero and you have no traction.

如果你从零开始，你就没有动力。

So we talk with seed stage companies and series A companies, typically they don't have a lot of authority and it's too soon.

因此，我们与种子期公司和 A 轮公司进行交谈，通常他们没有太多权力，而且还为时过早。

And Google doesn't want you to just be an SEO site and they want you to be a credible domain before they rank you.

谷歌不希望你只是一个搜索引擎优化网站，他们希望你在对你进行排名之前成为一个可信的域名。

And if you're starting from zero, they don't have enough signals that you are.

如果你是从零开始，他们就没有足够的信号表明你是从零开始的。

Ethan Smith: So the way that we assess that is, the first signal I'll look at is what's your traffic?

伊森·史密斯：所以我们评估的方式是，我要查看的第一个信号是您的流量是什么？

What's your current traffic?

您目前的流量是多少？

And your non SEO traffic is actually an authority signal.

而你的非SEO流量实际上是一个权威信号。

So I'll go into SimilarWeb, I'll put the domain in, I'll look at the total traffic and I'll want to see at least I would say 1,000 visits a day roughly for non SEO at least, if you have five visits that that's very little.

所以我会进入SimilarWeb，我会输入域名，我会查看总流量，我会希望看到至少每天大约有1,000次访问，对于非SEO来说至少是这样，如果你有5次访问，那就很少了。

And then the second thing I'll look at is the number of referring domains.

我要查看的第二件事是引用域的数量。

So I'll go into Ahrefs or Semrush and look up the total number of referring domains.

因此，我将进入 Ahrefs 或 Semrush 并查找引用域的总数。

I'll try to have at least 1,000 roughly referring domains.

我将尝试拥有至少 1,000 个粗略引用域。

You could grow with less than that and less than 1,000 visits, but it's much harder.

如果您的访问量少于 1,000 次，您就可以实现增长，但这要困难得多。

And the more you have, the easier it is to grow and the faster you can grow and the more you can grow.

你拥有的越多，你就越容易成长，你就能成长得越快，你就能成长得越多。

Ethan Smith: And then in terms of the addressable market, that's a little bit more complicated, but most markets are pretty large actually in SEO, but we want it to be large.

伊森·史密斯：就潜在市场而言，情况有点复杂，但大多数市场实际上在搜索引擎优化方面都相当大，但我们希望它很大。

So With Power is actually an interesting example.

So With Power 实际上是一个有趣的例子。

So they're a clinical trial lead gen site.

所以他们是临床试验的领先网站。

They want acquire people to take clinical trials.

他们希望招募人员参加临床试验。

How many people are typing online, I want to take a clinical trial?

有多少人在网上打字，我想参加临床试验？

Not very many.

不是很多。

But the number of people that could be taking clinical trials is very large.

但可以参加临床试验的人数非常多。

And so if we target the persona, what's the key demographic of who might be a candidate for taking clinical trial?

因此，如果我们针对人物角色，那么谁可能是参加临床试验的候选人的关键人群是什么？

It's very, very large.

它非常非常大。

So we can then create content that targets that, like gig economy or college students or people like that.

因此，我们可以创建针对这一目标的内容，例如零工经济或大学生或类似的人。

So if you think about targeting the persona, most sites have a very large addressable market.

因此，如果您考虑针对角色，大多数网站都有一个非常大的潜在市场。

Ethan Smith: But the way that I would think about the addressable market is that which is what product am I offering?

伊森·史密斯：但我考虑目标市场的方式是我提供什么产品？

What are the use cases for that product?

该产品的用例是什么？

What is the persona?

人物是什么？

What's the size of that?

那个尺寸是多少？

And then I would assess that typically by looking at external benchmarks.

然后我通常会通过查看外部基准来评估这一点。

So if I'm a shopping site and I haven't started yet, I can look at other shopping sites, I can see how much traffic they have.

所以如果我是一个购物网站而且我还没有开始，我可以看看其他购物网站，我可以看到他们有多少流量。

So again, I can go into SimilarWeb if I'm Wish.com and I want to see what my traffic potential is, I can put in Walmart and Wayfair, put it in SimilarWeb, look at their total traffic.

再说一遍，如果我是 Wish.com，我可以进入 ComparisonWeb，并且想了解我的流量潜力，我可以将其放入 Walmart 和 Wayfair，将其放入 Sametime，查看它们的总流量。

SimilarWeb's free for all of this.

所有这一切，SimilarWeb 都是免费的。

And then I can get a sense of how big I can get.

然后我就能知道我能变得多大。

Ethan Smith: The one other thing I'll mention is that there are product competitors and audience competitors.

伊森·史密斯：我要提到的另一件事是，存在产品竞争对手和受众竞争对手。

So for something like, I'm at a WeWork right now.

例如，我现在在 WeWork。

So for WeWork, I could look at the traffic for other rental office companies or I could look at companies that are ranking for the kinds of things that I would want to rank for.

因此，对于 WeWork，我可以查看其他租赁办公室公司的流量，或者查看正在对我想要排名的事物进行排名的公司。

And they may not be direct product competitors.

而且他们可能不是直接的产品竞争对手。

FinTech is interesting.

金融科技很有趣。

So for Robinhood, Robinhood could look at other sites that allow you to sell stocks in crypto or they could look at Investipedia.

因此，对于 Robinhood 来说，Robinhood 可以查看其他允许您以加密货币出售股票的网站，或者他们可以查看 Investipedia。

Investipedia doesn't allow you to buy stocks, but they have a bunch of traffic.

Investipedia 不允许你购买股票，但他们有大量流量。

It's not a product competitor, but it's an audience competitor.

它不是产品的竞争对手，而是受众的竞争对手。

And so these competitors basically can tell you what the size of that market is.

所以这些竞争对手基本上可以告诉你这个市场的规模有多大。

So that's how I think about the addressable market.

这就是我对潜在市场的看法。

So ideally it's large, it typically is.

所以理想情况下它是大的，通常是这样。

And then the more authority I have, the more I can compete.

然后我拥有的权力越大，我就越能竞争。

If I'm starting from zero, it's probably too early.

如果我从零开始，可能还太早。

But once I have traction, SEO can then multiply that traction.

但一旦我有了吸引力，搜索引擎优化就可以倍增这种吸引力。

Lenny: We are now in the top three.

Lenny：我们现在已经进入前三名了。

Who could it be?

会是谁呢？

Drum roll.

鼓声滚滚。

The third most popular episode of the year at this point, Shreyas Doshi.

今年第三受欢迎的剧集是《Shreyas Doshi》。

Shreyas was a longtime PM at Stripe, before that he was a PM at Twitter at Google and is generally just an incredibly insightful and helpful human constantly sharing his wisdom on Twitter, and now he has his own course on Maven.

Shreyas 是 Stripe 的长期 PM，在此之前，他是 Google Twitter 的 PM，通常是一个非常有洞察力和乐于助人的人，不断在 Twitter 上分享他的智慧，现在他有自己的 Maven 课程。

Here is Shreyas describing the LNO framework, which people have brought up so many times after this episode and that I've personally found incredibly useful.

Shreyas 描述了 LNO 框架，在这一集之后人们已经多次提及该框架，我个人发现它非常有用。

Shreyas Doshi: When I just joined Google as a relatively new PM, this is back in 2008, for the first three years I was overwhelmed and stressed.

Shreyas Doshi：2008 年，当我作为一名相对较新的 PM 加入 Google 时，头三年我感到不知所措和压力。

And that was because, one, I was a new PM in this really high performance environment.

这是因为，第一，我是这个真正高性能环境中的新产品经理。

I was working on some important products and launches and I just had too much to do.

我正在开发一些重要的产品并发布产品，但我有太多事情要做。

And I look back at that time, and it was perhaps the most stressful time of my career.

现在回想起来那段时间，那可能是我职业生涯中压力最大的一段时间。

Where I would work long hours, et cetera, but even at the end of the day, I'd feel highly dissatisfied because my to-do list was endless and I wasn't able to make a dent on it.

我会工作很长时间，等等，但即使在一天结束时，我也会感到非常不满意，因为我的待办事项清单是无穷无尽的，而我却无法在上面有所作为。

I was also a little bit of a perfectionist.

我也是一个有点完美主义者。

So I was like, no, no, no, I need to do this well.

所以我想，不，不，不，我需要把这件事做好。

And yeah, I was just constantly I would come home and talk to my wife and kind of basically just complain to her about how I'm not able to make progress or as much progress as I want.

是的，我只是经常回家和我的妻子交谈，基本上只是向她抱怨我如何无法取得进展或取得我想要的进步。

That was accompanied with not being able to sleep very well because I was concerned about how much output I was producing and whatnot.

伴随而来的是睡不好觉，因为我担心自己产生了多少产出等等。

So again, very stressful time in my career.

再说一遍，这是我职业生涯中压力很大的时期。

Shreyas Doshi: And then things changed when I discovered the ideas related to this LNO framework in a blog post.

Shreyas Doshi：当我在一篇博客文章中发现与这个 LNO 框架相关的想法时，事情发生了变化。

Unfortunately I can't even find that blog post somewhere, but it had some ideas that I took and then kind of created this LNO framework on myself, which is essentially that as a product manager or as anybody in a creative high impact, high leverage role, all your tasks are not created equal.

不幸的是，我什至无法在某个地方找到那篇博客文章，但它有一些我采纳的想法，然后为我自己创建了这个 LNO 框架，这本质上是，作为产品经理或任何具有创造性、高影响力、高影响力的角色，你的所有任务都不是平等的。

There are actually three type of tasks that you end up doing in such a role.

实际上，您最终会以这样的角色完成三种类型的任务。

Shreyas Doshi: So there are L tasks, which are leverage tasks.

Shreyas Doshi：所以有 L 个任务，即杠杆任务。

And the L tasks are such that when you put in a certain amount of effort, you get 10X or 100X in return in terms of impact.

L 任务是这样的，当你付出一定的努力时，你会得到 10 倍或 100 倍的回报（影响力）。

So those are L tasks, leverage tasks.

这些是 L 任务，杠杆任务。

Then there are neutral tasks, so that's N.

然后是中性任务，所以是N。

And those are tasks where you basically get what you put in or just a little more than that.

在这些任务中，你基本上会得到你所投入的东西，或者只是多一点。

So you put in 1X and you get 1.1X.

所以你输入 1X，你就会得到 1.1X。

Those are neutral tasks.

这些是中立的任务。

And then there are overhead tasks where you get back, again in terms of impact, you get back a lot less than you actually put in.

然后还有一些开销任务，你会得到回报，同样就影响而言，你得到的回报比你实际投入的要少得多。

And it turns out that many people, people who are ambitious or are perfectionists like myself, they by default treat each of these types of tasks the same way and therein lies the problem.

事实证明，许多人，那些雄心勃勃的人或像我这样的完美主义者，他们默认以相同的方式对待每一种类型的任务，这就是问题所在。

So this was the epiphany for me back at Google when I kind of discovered some of these ideas.

所以，当我回到谷歌时，当我发现其中一些想法时，这就是我的顿悟。

Shreyas Doshi: What I realized that is that among the things in my to-do list, there are actually only very few L tasks.

Shreyas Doshi：我意识到，在我的待办事项列表中，实际上只有很少的 L 项任务。

And so it made sense for me to focus a lot on those L tasks, to take on those L tasks when I was feeling most productive, most energetic during a certain time of the day.

因此，对我来说，在一天中的某个时间，当我感觉最有成效、最有活力的时候，去承担这些 L 任务，是有意义的。

And, for the L tasks, let my inner perfectionist shine because I'm going to get so much more in return.

而且，对于 L 任务，让我内心的完美主义者闪耀，因为我会得到更多的回报。

It makes sense for me to spend that time on that PRD for instance, related to an important feature that will meaningfully impact our revenue.

例如，我花时间在 PRD 上是有意义的，它与一个将对我们收入产生重大影响的重要功能相关。

I'm going to spend more time on that than I ordinarily would.

我会比平时花更多的时间在这上面。

So now where does that more time come from?

那么现在更多的时间从哪里来呢？

Because it cannot come from just working more hours.

因为它不能仅仅靠加班来实现。

Well, it comes from spending less time on N tasks and O tasks.

嗯，它来自于在 N 任务和 O 任务上花费更少的时间。

And so there are some tasks that you do, a classic example of an O task is say an expense report.

因此，您需要执行一些任务，O 任务的一个典型示例是费用报告。

It sounds silly, but I used to try to make my expense reports really good.

这听起来很愚蠢，但我曾经努力让我的费用报告变得非常好。

Shreyas Doshi: Sometimes that made no sense.

Shreyas Doshi：有时这毫无意义。

But I was like, no, no, no, I need to do that.

但我当时想，不，不，不，我需要这样做。

And again, this is the silliest example, but there are many examples.

再说一遍，这是最愚蠢的例子，但例子有很多。

And something I realized is that the same type of activity can actually be either an L task or an N task or an O task.

我意识到，同一类型的活动实际上可以是 L 任务、N 任务或 O 任务。

So what's an example?

那么什么是例子呢？

So say like a classic PM activity of filing a bug report.

就像提交错误报告的经典 PM 活动一样。

And so many companies have these bug templates, et cetera, et cetera, like that you use to file a bug report.

许多公司都有这些错误模板，等等，就像您用来提交错误报告的模板一样。

Well, it turns out that filing a bug report, depending on the situation, depending on what type of bug it is, can actually be an L task, high leverage task, and over there you want to file a very detailed explicit bug report.

好吧，事实证明，提交错误报告，根据情况，根据错误的类型，实际上可以是一个 L 任务，高杠杆任务，在那里你想要提交一份非常详细的明确的错误报告。

In other cases might actually be an O task, where you don't fill out the template that diligently and you don't add 15 screenshots with annotations, instead you just have one screenshot and you hit submit on the bug report.

在其他情况下，实际上可能是一项 O 任务，您不会认真填写模板，也不会添加 15 个带有注释的屏幕截图，而是只有一张屏幕截图，然后在错误报告上点击“提交”。

So that shift where usually for the same type of activity we provide the same type of engagement.

因此，这种转变通常针对同一类型的活动，我们提供相同类型的参与。

Shreyas Doshi: Last example I'll use to illustrate this is taking notes.

Shreyas Doshi：我用来说明这一点的最后一个例子是做笔记。

It turns out even taking notes, taking notes, synthesizing them, and then sharing them can actually be an L task, an N task or an O task depending on what type of notes they are.

事实证明，甚至记笔记、记笔记、综合它们，然后分享它们实际上也可以是 L 任务、N 任务或 O 任务，具体取决于它们是什么类型的笔记。

After I understood this, previously I would just send all notes like I tried to make them really good, which took a lot of time.

当我明白这一点后，以前我只是发送所有笔记，就像我试图让它们变得非常好一样，这花了很多时间。

But then I realized, well, this is a meeting where, yes, I need to send notes, but it's just standard stuff.

但后来我意识到，嗯，这是一次会议，是的，我需要发送笔记，但这只是标准的东西。

I just need to quickly list out, all people need to really know is the three action items that came out of the meetings, who owns them.

我只需要快速列出，所有人真正需要知道的是会议中提出的三个行动项目，以及谁拥有它们。

That's it.

就是这样。

And it is not about something highly strategic or controversial.

这并不是什么高度战略性或有争议的事情。

Well, in that case, I'm just going to send the notes out the moment the meeting is over, I'm just going to hit send because I've already taken the action items.

好吧，在这种情况下，我将在会议结束后立即发送笔记，我只需点击发送，因为我已经采取了行动项目。

I'm not going to try to make my notes look great so that others can appreciate, oh Shreyas always sends great notes.

我不会试图让我的笔记看起来很棒，以便其他人能够欣赏，哦，Shreyas 总是发送很棒的笔记。

Shreyas Doshi: On the other hand, if it was a product review with the CEO about a very contentious topic that you have gone back and forth multiple times and now you made a decision about something, you want to perfect those notes before you send them out.

Shreyas Doshi：另一方面，如果是与首席执行官就一个非常有争议的主题进行产品审查，您已经反复讨论了多次，现在您对某件事做出了决定，那么您希望在发送之前完善这些注释。

You want to get the language right, you want to be very clear on what the decision is so there's no room for misinterpretation so you don't backtrack afterwards.

你希望语言正确，你希望非常清楚决定是什么，这样就不会有误解的余地，这样你就不会在事后反悔。

Or people say, well, but I thought we said this.

或者人们说，好吧，但我想我们是这么说的。

So that's a case where it's an L task.

所以这是一个 L 任务的情况。

And yeah, I would say just spend an hour or even two hours perfecting those notes because it's an L task.

是的，我想说只需花一个小时甚至两个小时完善这些笔记，因为这是一项 L 任务。

So hopefully that helps illustrate some of the ideas behind the LNO framework.

希望这有助于说明 LNO 框架背后的一些想法。

Lenny: Runner up for the most popular episode of the year is my conversation with Marty Cagan.

莱尼：今年最受欢迎剧集的亚军是我与马蒂·凯根的对话。

Marty is the legend of legend of product managers.

马蒂是产品经理传奇中的传奇。

And I'm not surprised this episode was incredibly popular.

我对这一集如此受欢迎并不感到惊讶。

Here are two my favorite clips for my chat with Marty.

这是我与马蒂聊天时最喜欢的两个片段。

One talking about why big companies are just bad at product often.

有人谈论为什么大公司经常在产品方面表现不佳。

And two, the four steps to be a good product manager.

第二，成为一名优秀产品经理的四个步骤。

Marty Cagan: Steve Jobs shared his theory from 1995 for God's sake.

马蒂·凯根：史蒂夫·乔布斯分享了他 1995 年的理论。

His argument was, as a company gets bigger, product historically became less important.

他的论点是，随着公司规模的扩大，产品在历史上变得不那么重要。

The people in a company that would be celebrated were marketing people, salespeople, finance people.

公司里值得庆祝的人是营销人员、销售人员、财务人员。

Because if a company stops innovating, these are the engines for growth.

因为如果一家公司停止创新，这些就会成为增长的引擎。

Sales, marketing, or not growth with finance, but cutting cost.

销售、营销，或者不是通过财务来增长，而是通过削减成本。

And his argument was this happens over time.

他的论点是，这种情况会随着时间的推移而发生。

Pretty soon, these are your leaders, they're the ones that have been promoted.

很快，这些人就是你们的领导者，他们就是被提拔的人。

So then what happens?

那么接下来会发生什么呢？

Good product people don't want to work there anymore and they leave and they go to a company that values product.

好的产品的人不想再在那里工作，他们离开并去了一家重视产品的公司。

I think that's a better explanation than any other that I've heard.

我认为这是一个比我听过的任何其他解释都更好的解释。

And it was so prescient because when he said this, this had yet to even happen to so many other companies, but it still happens all the time.

这是非常有先见之明的，因为当他说这句话时，这种情况还没有发生在许多其他公司身上，但它仍然一直在发生。

Marty Cagan: I hate the idea those companies that have separate product owners, because product owner is just an administrative role.

Marty Cagan：我讨厌那些拥有独立产品负责人的公司，因为产品负责人只是一个管理角色。

Product owners almost never have the skills to be a product manager, and that's a problem.

产品负责人几乎不具备成为产品经理的技能，这是一个问题。

But let's just say there's a product manager and nobody's ever coached this poor person and so they really don't know much.

但我们只能说，有一个产品经理，但没有人指导过这个可怜的人，所以他们真的了解不多。

So the first thing that product manager needs to do is get themselves prepared to contribute to their team the way they need to.

因此，产品经理需要做的第一件事就是让自己做好准备，以他们需要的方式为团队做出贡献。

Marty Cagan: In general, that means four things.

马蒂·凯根：总的来说，这意味着四件事。

First of all, they have to really get to know the users and customers.

首先，他们必须真正了解用户和客户。

The second thing is they have to be an expert in the data.

第二件事是他们必须是数据专家。

How is your product used?

你们的产品是如何使用的？

How is that change over time?

随着时间的推移，这种变化如何？

What's the sales analytics?

销售分析是什么？

What's the user analytics?

用户分析是什么？

The third thing is, and this is usually the hardest one and it's the one that your stakeholders will judge you on, is you have to learn the different parts of the business.

第三件事是，这通常是最难的一件事，也是你的利益相关者评判你的依据，你必须学习业务的不同部分。

You have to know how it's marketed, how it's sold, how it's paid for, how it monetizes.

你必须知道它是如何营销的、如何销售的、如何付费的、如何货币化的。

If there are any compliance, regulatory, privacy, security issues, you need to know what those are.

如果存在任何合规性、监管、隐私、安全问题，您需要知道这些问题是什么。

So that you have to convince those stakeholders that you understand what the issues are and you understand what to look for and that you convince them that if there's ever any question you will bring them a prototype that they can see and make sure it's okay.

因此，您必须让这些利益相关者相信您了解问题是什么，您了解要寻找什么，并且您说服他们，如果有任何问题，您将为他们提供一个他们可以看到的原型，并确保它没问题。

So you need that trust with the different parts of the business.

因此，您需要与企业不同部门建立信任。

The fourth area is you have to know the competitive landscape, you have to know the industry, you have to know the trends.

第四个领域是你必须了解竞争格局，你必须了解行业，你必须了解趋势。

Marty Cagan: Those are the four things you bring to the team.

马蒂·凯根：这是你为团队带来的四件事。

Realize the designer doesn't have this info, the engineers don't have this info.

意识到设计师没有这些信息，工程师也没有这些信息。

If the team is going to be an empowered team and they're going to come up with solutions, they need somebody on the team that brings this knowledge, and that is you as product manager.

如果团队要成为一个被授权的团队并且他们要提出解决方案，那么他们需要团队中有人带来这些知识，那就是作为产品经理的你。

That is the single biggest area empowered teams fall down, the product manager is ill-equipped, or a nice way of saying incompetence.

这是授权团队失败的最大一个领域，产品经理装备不足，或者说是无能。

Lenny: And finally our number one most downloaded, most popular episode of the year, which raced to number one as soon as they came out, is with the one and only Matt Mochary.

莱尼：最后，我们今年下载量最高、最受欢迎的一集，一经推出就跃居第一，是由唯一的马特·莫卡里 (Matt Mochary) 主演的。

Matt is a full-time CEO coach.

马特是一名全职首席执行官教练。

He's worked with CEOs of companies like OpenAI, Coinbase, Notion, Rippling, Angellist, so many other amazing folks that I could just keep listing.

他曾与 OpenAI、Coinbase、Notion、Rippling、Angellist 等公司的首席执行官合作过，还有许多其他出色的人，我可以继续列出。

In this episode.

在这一集中。

There are just so many nuggets of wisdom, and I could share 100 clips from just this one episode, but I'm going to choose just two.

其中蕴藏着太多的智慧，我可以分享这一集中的 100 个片段，但我只会选择两个。

One, the power of small teams and how small teams often get more work done.

第一，小团队的力量以及小团队通常如何完成更多工作。

And two, advice for having hard conversations with your employees and with people in general.

第二，关于与员工和一般人进行艰难对话的建议。

Enjoy.

享受。

Matt Mochary: My companies have done a lot of layoffs, and here's why, the companies that I coached.

马特·莫卡里：我的公司已经进行了大量裁员，这就是我指导的公司的原因。

Back in March of 2020, there was a chance that the world economy was imploding.

早在 2020 年 3 月，世界经济就有可能崩溃。

Now, of course, by April and May we realized that wasn't the case, that the tech world kept going.

当然，到了四月和五月，我们意识到事实并非如此，科技世界仍在继续发展。

In fact, it was even flourishing.

事实上，它甚至还很繁荣。

But in March of 2020 we didn't know that.

但在 2020 年 3 月，我们还不知道这一点。

And so if you were being fiscally responsible, you needed to prepare for that eventuality, so you needed pare costs.

因此，如果你要承担财政责任，你需要为这种可能性做好准备，因此你需要削减成本。

80% of costs in any tech company is payroll, is humans.

在任何科技公司中，80% 的成本都来自于工资，即人。

So if you're going to pare costs, you actually have to let go of humans.

因此，如果你要削减成本，你实际上必须放弃人类。

So almost every one of my companies did, some on the low side of 5%, some on the high side of one company that was is a hotel company let go of 40% because that looks like their business was about to get obliterated.

所以几乎我的每一家公司都这么做了，有些是 5% 的低利率，有些是高利率，一家酒店公司放弃了 40%，因为看起来他们的业务即将被消灭。

The results were crazy.

结果很疯狂。

Matt Mochary: Within 60 days of each layoff, the CEO reported back to me, it's insane, I don't know how this happened, but the company's now operating better.

马特·莫卡里：每次裁员后 60 天内，首席执行官向我汇报，这太疯狂了，我不知道这是怎么发生的，但公司现在运营得更好了。

I'm not talking on a relative scale.

我不是在相对规模上谈论。

I'm talking on an absolute scale.

我说的是绝对规模​​。

We're putting out more features, more code, our NPS is up.

我们正在推出更多功能、更多代码，我们的 NPS 也提高了。

Whatever it is, what whatever department is performing better.

不管是什么，哪个部门表现得更好。

And the only answer for it was we've got less people.

唯一的答案是我们的人越来越少。

So it's this coordination, issue is reduced with fewer people in the organization things work better.

因此，正是这种协调，组织中的人员越少，问题就减少了，事情就越好。

That's the big realization that most people never discover.

这是大多数人从未发现的重大认识。

So they hit product market fit, they get tons of money for investors, nudged higher, higher, higher, higher.

因此，他们推出了适合市场的产品，为投资者带来了大量资金，推动了更高、更高、更高、更高。

But every additional human you have in your organization causes extra overhead and geometrically so, because now that you have to keep all those people informed, give them all context, make them all feel heard.

但是，你的组织中每多一个人都会带来几何级的额外开销，因为现在你必须让所有这些人了解情况，为他们提供所有背景信息，让他们都感到被倾听。

Because unless they feel like they're contributing and you understand what they're saying, then they feel ignored and they feel passed over and they feel disrespected and grumpy.

因为除非他们觉得自己在做出贡献，并且你明白他们在说什么，否则他们会感到被忽视、被忽视、不被尊重、脾气暴躁。

Matt Mochary: So there's this morale problem that exists.

马特·莫卡里：所以存在士气问题。

So there's this friction of information flow and a morale problem that grows and grows and grows.

因此，信息流的摩擦和士气问题日益严重。

And really the only answer is, I mean, that's why people bring me in because they're growing, growing, growing, and things are breaking.

事实上，唯一的答案是，我的意思是，这就是人们带我进来的原因，因为他们正在成长、成长、成长，而事情正在破裂。

So I have a system that keeps things together.

所以我有一个将事物保持在一起的系统。

But it doesn't make it like perfect, it just makes it so that the company doesn't fall apart.

但这并没有让它变得完美，它只是让公司不会分崩离析。

But really the ideal is just to keep the team super small.

但真正的理想只是让团队保持超小规模。

And that's what WhatsApp did.

这就是 WhatsApp 所做的。

That's what Instagram did.

Instagram 就是这么做的。

That's what Linear is doing right now.

这就是 Linear 现在正在做的事情。

That's what Notion has been doing for a while.

这就是 Notion 一段时间以来一直在做的事情。

And those to me are the real success stories.

对我来说，这些才是真正的成功故事。

Matt Mochary: Whenever I have a difficult conversation I start it off, hey, this is going to be a difficult conversation.

马特·莫卡里：每当我进行一场艰难的对话时，我都会开始，嘿，这将是一场艰难的对话。

I want you to take a few seconds and prepare yourself.

我希望你花几秒钟做好准备。

You are not going to enjoy this.

你不会享受这个。

What I found is that the way the amygdala gets triggered is often because of surprise.

我发现杏仁核被触发的方式往往是因为惊讶。

So if you give someone just a few seconds to mentally prepare, then the amygdala often doesn't get triggered nearly as hard because if they're aware that they're going to go into fear, if they're going to go into anger, they're going to go into sadness, then they can see it coming and they go, oh, that's what it is.

因此，如果你只给某人几秒钟的时间进行心理准备，那么杏仁核通常不会被那么强烈地触发，因为如果他们意识到他们将陷入恐惧，如果他们将陷入愤怒，他们将陷入悲伤，然后他们可以看到它的到来，他们就会走，哦，就是这样。

But if they don't see it coming, just surprise and all of a sudden, it grips their whole brain and now they're in it and they don't even know they're in it.

但如果他们没有预见到它的到来，只是感到惊讶，突然​​间，它抓住了他们的整个大脑，现在他们就在其中，但他们甚至不知道自己在其中。

So, that's the first thing I do.

所以，这是我做的第一件事。

This is going to be a difficult conversation.

这将是一次艰难的对话。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Person says yes.

人说是的。

Then I share the news.

然后我分享这个消息。

I'm letting you go.

我让你走。

Here's why, da, da, da.

这就是为什么，哒，哒，哒。

Matt Mochary: Then the second, I deliver the message.

马特·莫卡里：然后是第二个，我传递信息。

The third thing is now they're feeling emotions, strong ones.

第三件事是他们现在感受到了情绪，强烈的情绪。

Even though I warned them, they're still feeling them.

尽管我警告过他们，但他们仍然有这种感觉。

Now, you want them to be able to release those emotions.

现在，您希望他们能够释放这些情绪。

And so I say to them, my guess is you're feeling a lot of anger right now, fear, sadness.

所以我对他们说，我猜你现在感到非常愤怒、恐惧和悲伤。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

And if so, would you be willing to share with me what you're feeling and what you're thinking?

如果是这样，您愿意与我分享您的感受和想法吗？

And sometimes they don't answer but many times they do and they share with me and they let it out, and that's important to allow them to let it out.

有时他们不回答，但很多时候他们会回答，他们与我分享，他们把它说出来，让他们把它说出来很重要。

And then I make them feel heard and I actively listen, and that makes them realize that I'm not trying to run away from the pain that they're feeling.

然后我让他们感到自己被倾听，我积极倾听，这让他们意识到我并不是试图逃避他们所感受到的痛苦。

I'm not trying to leave them alone with it.

我并不是想让他们独自承受这一切。

I sit with them as they have it, and then I try to help them get through it.

当他们遇到困难时，我会和他们坐在一起，然后尝试帮助他们度过难关。

Lenny: And that's our top 10.

Lenny：这就是我们的前十名。

It was actually really hard to make this list because all 50 episodes have something really fascinating and interesting to share.

事实上，列出这个清单真的很难，因为所有 50 集都有一些非常令人着迷和有趣的东西可以分享。

For example, if you need help with pricing strategy, don't miss the Modavon episode.

例如，如果您需要定价策略方面的帮助，请不要错过 Modavon 剧集。

If you want to get better at communication, don't miss the episode of West Cow.

如果你想提高沟通能力，不要错过《西牛》这集。

If you're building a marketplace, there's the Hockenmaier episode.

如果您正在建立一个市场，那么霍肯迈尔事件就是您的最佳选择。

If you're trying to figure out your marketing and how to build your marketing function, don't miss the episodes with Emily Kramer and Ariel Jackson.

如果您想了解您的营销以及如何建立营销功能，请不要错过 Emily Kramer 和 Ariel Jackson 的剧集。

I could keep going, but I'm just going to stop here.

我可以继续前进，但我要在这里停下来。

I encourage you to check out the full list of episodes in case you're currently facing a problem that one of the episodes can solve.

我鼓励您查看完整的剧集列表，以防您当前遇到其中一集可以解决的问题。

Lenny: To close, this podcasting journey has been so much more fulfilling and exciting and interesting than I ever expected, and I'm so thankful for you for listening and for supporting this podcast, telling your friends about it.

Lenny：最后，这个播客之旅比我预想的更加充实、令人兴奋和有趣，我非常感谢您的收听和支持这个播客，并将其告诉您的朋友。

I'm also really thankful to our wonderful sponsors for supporting this work.

我也非常感谢我们出色的赞助商对这项工作的支持。

In terms of what's ahead, basically more the same.

就未来而言，基本上是相同的。

More amazing guests, more topics that maybe you haven't thought about, that you need help with, maybe more amazing topics that you know need help with that I want to help you solve.

更多令人惊叹的嘉宾，更多您可能没有想到过的、需要帮助的主题，也许还有更多您知道需要帮助的令人惊叹的主题，而我想帮助您解决。

I'm still learning how to interview, how to do this podcast, how to make it more amazing, and so my goal is just to continue to refine and iterate and continue making this podcast better and better.

我还在学习如何采访，如何做这个播客，如何让它变得更加精彩，所以我的目标就是继续完善和迭代，继续把这个播客做得越来越好。

Lenny: With that, I'd love to hear from you.

莱尼：那么，我很想听听你的消息。

What do you love about this podcast?

您喜欢这个播客的哪些方面？

What do you hate about the podcast?

你讨厌播客的什么？

What annoys you?

什么让你烦恼？

What do you find most interesting?

你觉得最有趣的是什么？

I'd love to hear your feedback.

我很想听听您的反馈。

You can either email me at podcast@lennyrichards.com.

您可以发送电子邮件至 podcast@lennyrichards.com。

You can also go to this episode on my newsletter, if you go to lennysnewsletter.com and find this episode, you can leave a comment at the bottom of that episode.

您也可以在我的时事通讯上查看这一集，如果您访问 lennysnewsletter.com 并找到这一集，您可以在该集的底部留下评论。

You can also DM me on Twitter if you just want to reach out directly.

如果您想直接联系，也可以在 Twitter 上给我发私信。

Seriously, I'd love to hear from you.

说真的，我很想听听你的消息。

This is how I'm going to make this podcast better.

这就是我要让这个播客变得更好的方法。

Until then, happy holidays.

到那时，节日快乐。

Happy New Year.

新年快乐。

From the bottom of my heart, thank you for listening and for supporting this podcast.

我衷心感谢您的收听和支持这个播客。

I'll see you next year.

明年再见。