How Intercom rose from the ashes by betting everything on AI | Eoghan McCabe (founder and CEO)

Eoghan McCabe: You don't have a choice.

伊根·麦凯布：你别无选择。

AI is going to disrupt in the most aggressive violent ways.

人工智能将以最激进的暴力方式进行破坏。

If you're not in it, you're about to get kicked out of all of it.

如果你不参与其中，你就会被踢出这一切。

Lenny Rachitsky: You have very successfully shifted late stage SaaS business to an AI-first agent-based business.

Lenny Rachitsky：你们非常成功地将后期 SaaS 业务转变为基于人工智能的代理业务。

Eoghan McCabe: Fin is our AI agent who will pass 100 million ARR with Fin in less than three quarters.

Eoghan McCabe：Fin 是我们的 AI 代理，他将在不到三个季度的时间内通过 Fin 突破 1 亿 ARR。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about how you made this actually happen.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们谈谈您是如何实现这一切的。

Eoghan McCabe: We were about to hit $0 net new ARR, which means we would've been in negative growth territory.

Eoghan McCabe：我们的净新 ARR 即将达到 0 美元，这意味着我们将处于负增长区域。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, ChatGPT launches.

Lenny Rachitsky：那么，ChatGPT 启动了。

Was it just like this is it, we got to go all in on this thing?

是不是就这样了，我们必须全力以赴吗？

Eoghan McCabe: I said, we need to become a wartime company.

Eoghan McCabe：我说过，我们需要成为一家战时公司。

If we don't fight for this, we are dead.

如果我们不为此而战，我们就死定了。

I jumped hard on AI, but I also restarted the culture.

我大力投入人工智能，但我也重新启动了文化。

I rewrote the values designed to be a sharp knife to cut out the parts of the company that I just knew wouldn't be effective.

我重写了价值观，旨在成为一把锋利的刀，砍掉公司中我刚刚知道不会有效的部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you're trying to make the shift and it's just not moving, you may need to go hardcore founder mode.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果你试图做出转变，但结果却毫无进展，你可能需要进入硬核创始人模式。

Eoghan McCabe: The way that greatness is created is that you find a CEO who's willing to make brave hard decisions and own the results.

Eoghan McCabe：创造伟大的方式是你找到一位愿意做出勇敢艰难的决定并承担结果的首席执行官。

Lenny Rachitsky: What percentage of the employees kind of turned over during this period?

Lenny Rachitsky：在此期间离职的员工比例是多少？

Lenny Rachitsky: You said there was a soft coup.

Lenny Rachitsky：你说有一场软政变。

Is there more you could share about that?

对此您还有更多可以分享的吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Eoghan McCabe.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Eoghan McCabe。

This is the first in a series of conversations that I'm having with founders who have successfully transformed their established SaaS or marketplace businesses into an AI first company that is growing like crazy and overtaking their decade plus old business.

这是我与创始人进行的一系列对话中的第一场，这些创始人已成功将其已建立的 SaaS 或市场业务转变为一家人工智能优先的公司，该公司正在疯狂发展并超越了他们十多年的老业务。

So, many companies and product teams and founders are trying to navigate this very tricky time where every industry is being disrupted by AI, and my goal here is to help you essentially disrupt yourself before somebody else does.

因此，许多公司、产品团队和创始人都在努力度过这个非常棘手的时期，每个行业都受到人工智能的颠覆，而我的目标是帮助您在其他人之前从本质上颠覆自己。

The story of Intercom's transformation into Fin is incredible.

Intercom 转变为 Fin 的故事令人难以置信。

Their traditional business was valued at billions of dollars, was making hundreds of millions of dollars in ARR, but growth started to plateau and was even about to go negative.

他们的传统业务估值达数十亿美元，年收入达数亿美元，但增长开始趋于平稳，甚至即将出现负增长。

Six weeks after GPT-3.5 Came out, they had a working prototype of what is now Fin and Eoghan and the team decided to go all in on AI.

GPT-3.5 发布六周后，他们有了现在的 Fin 和 Eoghan 的工作原型，团队决定全力投入人工智能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today Fin is growing like crazy already at eight digits in ARR and Intercom is on track to be growing faster than every public software company by next year.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，Fin 的 ARR 已经达到了八位数的疯狂增长，而 Intercom 有望到明年比所有公共软件公司增长得更快。

In our conversation, Eoghan gets very real and honest about what it takes to win right now.

在我们的谈话中，伊根非常真实和诚实地讲述了现在需要什么才能获胜。

What do you have to do to turn the ship around at Intercom in spite of a lot of pushback and even a soft coup attempt, what he believes people still don't understand about what is happening in software and AI and so much more.

尽管遇到了很多阻力，甚至是软政变尝试，但你必须做些什么才能扭转对讲机的局面，他认为人们仍然不了解软件和人工智能等方面正在发生的事情。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of incredible products including Lovable, Replit, Bolt n8n, Linear, Superhuman Descript, Whisper Flow, Gamma Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, and Mobbin.

另外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的一堆令人难以置信的产品，包括 Lovable、Replit、Bolt n8n、Linear、Super human Descript、Whisper Flow、Gamma Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast 和 Mobbin。

Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click bundle.

请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。

With that, I bring you Eoghan McCabe.

接下来，我为您带来伊奥根·麦凯布 (Eoghan McCabe)。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Great Question the all-in-one UX research platform.

Lenny Rachitsky：这一集是由一体化用户体验研究平台 Great Question 为您带来的。

Loved by teams at Brex, Canva, Intuit and more.

深受 Brex、Canva、Intuit 等团队的喜爱。

One of the most common things I hear from PMs and founders that I talked to is I know I should be speaking to customers more, but I just don't have the time or the tools.

我从与我交谈过的产品经理和创始人那里听到的最常见的事情之一是，我知道我应该更多地与客户交谈，但我只是没有时间或工具。

That's exactly the gap Great Question fills.

这正是伟大问题所填补的空白。

Great Question makes it easy for anyone on your team, not just researchers, to recruit participants, run interviews, send surveys, test prototypes, and then share it all with powerful video clips.

Great Question 使团队中的任何人（而不仅仅是研究人员）都可以轻松招募参与者、进行访谈、发送调查、测试原型，然后通过强大的视频剪辑分享这一切。

It's everything you need to put your customers at the center of your product decisions.

这是您将客户置于产品决策中心所需的一切。

With a prompt as simple as why did users choose us over competitors, Great question not only reveals what your customers have already shared, but it also makes it incredibly easy to ask them in the moment for fresh insights from the right segment.

通过像用户为什么选择我们而不是竞争对手这样简单的提示，“好问题”不仅揭示了您的客户已经分享的内容，而且还使您可以非常轻松地立即向他们询问来自正确细分市场的新见解。

Picture this, your roadmap's clear, your team's aligned, you're shipping with confidence and you're building exactly what your customers need.

想象一下，您的路线图清晰，您的团队协调一致，您充满信心地交付，并且您正在构建客户真正需要的东西。

Head to greatquestion.com/lenny to get started.

前往greatquestion.com/lenny 开始。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and SCIM provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 SCIM 配置等企业功能。

That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow and Loom.

如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。

WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine grain authorization service.

WorkOS 最近还收购了细粒度授权服务 Warrant。

Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.

Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。

This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.

这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。

If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, SCIM or user management, you should consider WorkOS.

如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、SCIM 或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。

It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free.

它是 Auth0 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。

Check it out at workos.com to learn more.

请访问 workos.com 以了解更多信息。

That's workos.com.

那是workos.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: Eoghan, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：Eoghan，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Lenny Rachitsky: You have done something quite extraordinary with Intercom, something that a lot of founders and product teams are trying to do, which is to navigate this very scary disruption that's happening as a result of AI to most businesses.

Lenny Rachitsky：你在 Intercom 上做了一些非常了不起的事情，很多创始人和产品团队都在努力做的事情，那就是应对人工智能对大多数企业造成的非常可怕的破坏。

You have very successfully shifted, as you described, a late-stage SaaS business to an AI-first agent-based very successful business.

正如您所描述的，您已经非常成功地将后期 SaaS 业务转变为基于人工智能的非常成功的代理业务。

I want to use the time to extract as much as I can out of your journey so that people that are trying to navigate this and having a hard time can have less pain, less suffering and will hopefully get to something that works.

我想利用这段时间，从你的旅程中尽可能多地汲取教训，以便那些正在努力渡过难关的人们可以少一些痛苦，少一些痛苦，并希望能得到一些有用的东西。

To give people a sense of just how well things have gone.

让人们感觉到事情进展得多么顺利。

Can you share some stats about the current state of the business, how it's going?

您能分享一些有关当前业务状况的统计数据吗？进展如何？

Eoghan McCabe: Currently across the business we benchmark ourselves against all public software companies.

Eoghan McCabe：目前，我们在整个行业中以所有公共软件公司为基准。

There's like 120 something B2B software companies.

大约有 120 家 B2B 软件公司。

We're like in the 15th percentile for ARR growth, so we're up there.

我们的 ARR 增长处于第 15 个百分点，所以我们处于领先地位。

Fin, which is our AI agent, which is the future of the business, the thing that will disrupt the old business.

Fin，这是我们的人工智能代理，这是业务的未来，它将颠覆旧业务。

It's growing north of 300%.

它的增长速度超过 300%。

It took off really fast like all these other AI companies you hear of the first year, it grew from one to 12 million ARR.

就像您听说过的所有其他人工智能公司一样，它在第一年的发展速度非常快，ARR 从 1 增长到 1200 万。

We're now in solid mid eight digit ARR growth there, we'll pass 100 million ARR with Fin in less than three quarters.

我们现在的 ARR 稳步增长在八位数左右，我们将在不到三个季度的时间内通过 Fin 实现超过 1 亿的 ARR。

And yeah, Fin, we're in the customer experience category with Fin, so it's one of these agents that helps do all your customer work and they all started with service and in that category we are the biggest by customer count, biggest by revenue, best by performance benchmarks.

是的，Fin，我们与 Fin 属于客户体验类别，所以它是帮助您完成所有客户工作的代理之一，他们都是从服务开始的，在该类别中，我们是客户数量最多、收入最大、性能基准最好的。

We win all our head-to-heads and our direct competitor bake-offs.

我们赢得了所有的正面交锋和直接竞争对手的评选。

We're rated number one on G2, so I think we're doing pretty well.

我们在 G2 上排名第一，所以我认为我们做得很好。

We're doing far better than we imagined at this point.

目前我们做得比我们想象的要好得多。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

This sounds like the dream for a lot of founders, especially ones that are stuck with their existing business that isn't going very far.

这听起来像是许多创始人的梦想，尤其是那些坚持现有业务但发展不远的创始人。

So, let's get to that.

那么，让我们开始吧。

Let's talk about the beginning of this journey.

我们先来说说这次旅程的开始吧。

You had a business that was working, people used it, loved it, over 100 million ARR I believe.

你的业务正在运作，人们使用它，喜欢它，我相信它的ARR超过1亿。

Talk about just the state of the business at the point roughly when you decided I really need to make a big change and go AI first.

大致谈谈当你决定我真的需要做出重大改变并首先采用人工智能时的业务状况。

Eoghan McCabe: It was already in the hundreds of millions, Intercom is 14 years and change now.

Eoghan McCabe：已经有数亿了，Intercom 已经有 14 年了，现在发生了变化。

Part of the story is that in 2020 I had been sick for a couple years.

故事的一部分是，2020 年我已经病了好几年了。

The background is I had mold toxins and later I found out that I got a tick bite and that messed me up.

背景是我体内有霉菌毒素，后来我发现我被蜱虫叮咬了，这让我很困惑。

And so I left the CEO role in 2020 and a lot of the mistakes I had been making when I was sick got worse.

因此，我在 2020 年辞去了首席执行官的职务，我生病时犯下的很多错误变得更加严重。

We became what a lot of late stage software companies are today, which is a bit bloated.

我们变成了今天许多后期软件公司的样子，有点臃肿。

We lost some energy.

我们失去了一些能量。

Our strategy was diluted and unfocused.

我们的战略被稀释并且没有重点。

We're trying to do all the things for all the people.

我们正在努力为所有人做所有的事情。

Eoghan McCabe: We didn't know what problems we were already solving and for who, and the result was very slow revenue growth in the low single digit percent and I was away for two years unsatisfied where the business was going.

Eoghan McCabe：我们不知道我们已经在解决什么问题以及为谁解决问题，结果是收入增长非常缓慢，只有低个位数百分比，而且我离开了两年，对业务发展状况不满意。

We had this post COVID sugar rush, which a lot of big companies at that stage did in 2021.

我们经历了新冠疫情后的糖热潮，当时的很多大公司在 2021 年都经历过这种情况。

Everyone's valuation and revenue was through the roof and that hit a lot of problems in a lot of these companies and we had five quarters of success of sequential decline in our net new ARR and we were about to hit $0 net new ARR which means we would've in negative growth territory.

每个人的估值和收入都达到了顶峰，这给许多公司带来了很多问题，我们的净新 ARR 连续五个季度成功下降，我们即将达到 0 美元的净新 ARR，这意味着我们将处于负增长区域。

We never got there.

我们从未到达那里。

I managed to stop it before we got there, but we were falling each quarter and I found that I, despite my wishes to go and have new adventures, still had a lot of pride for this damn thing and didn't want to see it.

在我们到达那里之前，我设法阻止了它，但我们每个季度都在下降，我发现，尽管我希望去经历新的冒险，但我仍然对这个该死的东西感到非常自豪，并且不想看到它。

Eoghan McCabe: And in a way that was so different from the way it started, it started with so much hope and optimism like so many companies do, and it was about to fade away.

伊根·麦凯布（Eoghan McCabe）：在某种程度上与它开始的方式非常不同，它像许多公司一样以如此多的希望和乐观情绪开始，但它即将消失。

So, that was when I felt like I need to go back and I need to make a change.

所以，那时我觉得我需要回去，我需要做出改变。

I went back and one month later ChatGPT was announced, so it would be really neat and tidy to be able to say that the AI transformation came, I knew I couldn't be on the sidelines, I had to save this thing from the coming disruption.

我回去了，一个月后 ChatGPT 宣布了，所以能够说人工智能转型已经到来，这真的是一件很干净利落的事情，我知道我不能袖手旁观，我必须把这个东西从即将到来的颠覆中拯救出来。

Actually, I got whacked across the head by this AI thing, but it also ended up being a gift.

事实上，我被这个人工智能的东西击中了头，但它最终也成为了一份礼物。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, ChatGPT launches, was it just like this is it, we got to go all in on this thing?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么，ChatGPT 推出后，是不是就是这样，我们必须全力以赴？

Was it like, hmm, let's watch this thing?

是不是，嗯，让我们看看这个东西？

How quickly was it clear that this is the future, this isn't working what we're doing?

我们多久就清楚这就是未来，而我们正在做的事情行不通？

Eoghan McCabe: We and I were very lucky and that we had an AI group already.

Eoghan McCabe：我们和我非常幸运，我们已经有了一个人工智能小组。

We were in the customer communication business, chiefly doing customer service.

我们从事的是客户沟通业务，主要是做客户服务。

We were building bots, but they were rudimentary AI.

我们正在构建机器人，但它们只是初级人工智能。

We had a bunch of our own machine learning that did Q&A for customer service, but it required a phenomenal amount of setup and was kind of crappy.

我们有很多自己的机器学习来为客户服务进行问答，但它需要大量的设置，而且有点蹩脚。

But we had a number of AI engineers in the company already, and so when GPT 3.5 came out, they said, this is different and it didn't take long for people to start to imagine that this is going to be pretty disruptive to service.

但我们公司已经有很多人工智能工程师了，所以当 GPT 3.5 出来时，他们说，这是不同的，没过多久，人们就开始想象这将对服务造成相当大的破坏。

And it started where we imagined that this was going to just wreck everyone selling seats, everyone in the conventional SaaS game.

一开始，我们想象这会毁掉所有销售席位的人，以及传统 SaaS 游戏中的每个人。

Eoghan McCabe: And we believed that was quite possible for some couple years after that moment.

Eoghan McCabe：我们相信在那之后的几年里这是很有可能的。

But we were only six weeks into the launch of GPT 3.5 when we actually had a beta version of Fin.

但 GPT 3.5 发布仅六周后，我们就拥有了 Fin 的测试版。

I got a text from Des, my co-founder, a week or so after the launch of GPT 3.5 and he said, "The AI team have something interesting and they actually think we could make a product out of this." And this was long before there's now no doubt 100 service agents.

GPT 3.5 发布一周左右后，我收到了我的联合创始人 Des 发来的短信，他说：“AI 团队有一些有趣的东西，他们实际上认为我们可以用它来制作产品。”而这距离现在无疑有 100 名服务代理还早得多。

We had something very early working and part of what we had to our advantage also was that we had this giant base 300, sorry, 30,000 paying customers, hundreds of thousands of active users, millions of their users, billions of data points.

我们很早就有了一些东西，我们的优势之一是我们拥有这个庞大的 300 基数，抱歉，有 30,000 名付费客户、数十万活跃用户、数百万用户、数十亿数据点。

Eoghan McCabe: So, we had a lot to play with and so we jumped on it.

Eoghan McCabe：所以，我们有很多东西可以玩，所以我们就跳了起来。

Now obviously it's fun to tell that once again to the idea of this brave Maverick move, and I won't discount the fact that we were brave, but we were coming from a point of having nothing to lose.

现在显然，再次讲述这一勇敢的特立独行的想法是很有趣的，我不会低估我们勇敢的事实，但我们已经没有什么可失去的了。

So, we certainly are unique.

所以，我们当然是独一无二的。

I don't know a single company of our size and age that has pivoted this hard to AI and being as successful as we have been, but we also previously were screwed.

我不知道有哪一家像我们这样规模和年龄的公司如此努力地转向人工智能并取得像我们这样的成功，但我们以前也被搞砸了。

We were in a really tough spot, so had no choice.

我们的处境非常艰难，所以别无选择。

So, I'll take the kudos and credit, but also have a lot of empathy for companies that weren't as in as much trouble as we were, and so try to thread the needle and sustain the old business while adding to it with the new AI stuff.

因此，我会接受荣誉和荣誉，但也对那些没有像我们那样陷入困境的公司抱有很大的同情心，因此，我会努力解决问题并维持旧业务，同时添加新的人工智能内容。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something I heard from someone that worked at Intercom, correct me if this is not correct, you've always been very anti-bot in the customer support business because you didn't like how impersonal it was.

Lenny Rachitsky：我从 Intercom 工作的人那里听说了一些事情，如果这不正确，请纠正我，你在客户支持业务中一直非常反机器人，因为你不喜欢它的非人性化。

It just didn't feel like the way you wanted to build a business, and then now that's what you do.

这感觉不像你想要的创业方式，但现在这就是你所做的。

Talk about just that transition.

谈论这个转变。

Eoghan McCabe: Yeah, I know it's a fun and ironic twist.

Eoghan McCabe：是的，我知道这是一个有趣且讽刺的转折。

Our mission from the early days was make internet business personal.

我们早期的使命就是让互联网业务个性化。

And when I came back and we started to lean into AI, I started to wonder, does that mission make any sense anymore?

当我回来后，我们开始转向人工智能，我开始怀疑，这个使命还有意义吗？

Now, part of our lean into AI is that we had no choice not only for the business, we needed something new, but also we saw that this is the future and you can't fight the future.

现在，我们向人工智能倾斜的部分原因是，我们不仅对业务别无选择，我们需要新的东西，而且我们看到这就是未来，你无法对抗未来。

You must be part of it.

你必须是其中的一部分。

And so okay, fuck, we're going to be part of it.

所以好吧，操，我们将成为其中的一部分。

And ultimately, and it's very easy to tell yourself these little stories.

最终，告诉自己这些小故事是很容易的。

So, I'm open to anyone telling me this is bullshit, but when I interrogate myself, my soul and my mind, I don't think it is, when I interrogate my heart and my mind, I don't think it is.

所以，我对任何人告诉我这是废话持开放态度，但当我审问我自己、我的灵魂和我的思想时，我不认为这是废话，当我审问我的心和我的思想时，我不认为这是废话。

Eoghan McCabe: But I'm now of the belief that providing a customer with a highly engaged, instantly available expert, consistent, fast, charismatic, funny, friendly, personal agent available for literally every single customer every minute of the day around the clock is so much more personal than making them wait 2, 3, 4 days for a crappy canned response.

Eoghan McCabe：但我现在相信，为客户提供高度敬业、即时可用的专家、始终如一、快速、有魅力、有趣、友好、全天候为每个客户提供服务的私人代理，比让他们等待 2、3、4 天以获得蹩脚的预设回复要个性化得多。

And so that's the irony and the magic and the wonder of AI, even if it does make us ask some hard questions of ourselves and think carefully about its impact on humanity, it actually is superior at the things we describe as personal and human, relative to humans themselves.

这就是人工智能的讽刺之处、神奇之处和奇妙之处，即使它确实让我们对自己提出一些棘手的问题，并仔细思考它对人类的影响，但它实际上在我们所描述的个人和人类的事物上优于人类本身。

And so that's where I'm at today.

这就是我今天的处境。

Yeah, maybe it's a bunch of fancy post rationalization, but honestly that's really where I stand.

是的，也许这是一堆花哨的后合理化，但说实话，这确实是我的立场。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think data has shown people often prefer not to talk to humans just to solve problems that can just be solved.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为数据表明，人们通常不愿意仅仅为了解决可以解决的问题而与人交谈。

It's a lot of stress to try to figure out how to talk to some support agent that doesn't know anything about what's going on.

试图弄清楚如何与一些对正在发生的事情一无所知的支持代理交谈是一个很大的压力。

Eoghan McCabe: Yes, and the AI is just better.

Eoghan McCabe：是的，而且人工智能更好。

Look at Waymo.

看看韦莫。

So, Waymo doesn't crash.

所以，Waymo 不会崩溃。

It has 3.5 times less crashes than humans.

它发生的事故比人类少 3.5 倍。

It doesn't bother you or bug you.

它不会打扰你或打扰你。

I like to chat with an Uber driver as much as the next guy, but not always.

我和其他人一样喜欢与 Uber 司机聊天，但并非总是如此。

It doesn't have hygiene problems.

它不存在卫生问题。

It doesn't take wrong turns.

它不会走错路。

I mean it just doesn't do all these things that really bug people.

我的意思是它并没有做所有这些真正让人们烦恼的事情。

And it's really interesting to see Uber now offer women the option to call only female drivers, and I guarantee the reason they're doing that is because women love Waymo because they feel safer.

看到 Uber 现在为女性提供只给女性司机打电话的选择，这真的很有趣，我保证她们这样做的原因是因为女性喜欢 Waymo，因为她们感​​觉更安全。

AI is so often superior and humans are going to be far better at other things.

人工智能往往更优越，而人类在其他方面也会做得更好。

I'm pro-human, I love humans.

我是亲人类的，我爱人类。

I really want humans in the mix for all things in the rest of my life, but when it comes to practical, productive, efficient, and effective value, the glue in between the human parts of our lives, I actually want AI and robotics.

我真的希望人类能够参与我余生中的所有事情，但当谈到实用、富有成效、高效和有效的价值时，即我们生活中人类各部分之间的粘合剂时，我实际上想要人工智能和机器人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Before we start talking about how you actually made this transformation a success, one other piece of history is just your pricing strategy historically has been not liked by people.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我们开始谈论你们如何真正成功地实现这一转型之前，另一段历史是你们的定价策略历来不被人们喜欢。

For example, I once had a Twitter poll or a survey on my newsletter just like what products do you pay the most for of all your SaaS products?

例如，我曾经在 Twitter 上进行过一项民意调查，或者在我的时事通讯上进行过一项调查，就像您为所有 SaaS 产品中哪些产品支付的费用最高？

And Intercom's by far the most.

对讲机是迄今为止最多的。

I know people constantly complain about just how unclear it was and how high it was, and now you guys are at the forefront of how to price AI products.

我知道人们经常抱怨它是多么不明确以及它有多高，而现在你们处于如何为人工智能产品定价的最前沿。

So, we're going to get to that, but just talk about the lessons and what happened there with pricing back in the day.

因此，我们将讨论这一点，但只是谈谈教训以及当时的定价情况。

Eoghan McCabe: Yeah, so I want to just validate your survey data.

Eoghan McCabe：是的，所以我想验证一下您的调查数据。

Yes, people abhorred our pricing.

是的，人们讨厌我们的定价。

It was a meme.

这是一个模因。

There were actual funny popular viral memes on Twitter that were making fun of our pricing.

Twitter 上确实有一些有趣且流行的病毒表情包在取笑我们的定价。

Part of the problem, if not all of the problem, well, there's two problems.

部分问题，如果不是全部问题，那么，有两个问题。

One was our strategy, super unfocused.

一是我们的策略，非常不集中。

As you said, we're trying to do all the things for all the people, and when you're trying to do all the things for all the people, your efforts to capture all that different types of value are going to necessitate pretty complex pricing.

正如你所说，我们正在努力为所有人做所有的事情，当你试图为所有人做所有的事情时，你为获取所有不同类型的价值所做的努力将需要相当复杂的定价。

If you're like customer service and you're selling seats and you're doing outbound messaging and you need to charge for messages and you're doing like SD or Messenger on a website and you need to charge for leads, already that's just metrics in every direction.

如果您从事客户服务工作，销售席位，进行出站消息传递，需要对消息收费，而您在网站上从事 SD 或 Messenger 工作，需要对销售线索进行收费，那么这已经是各个方向的指标了。

Eoghan McCabe: And then if you're trying to sell to many different sizes of customers, you need tiers and gates and it just became a behemoth.

Eoghan McCabe：如果你想向许多不同规模的客户销售产品，你需要层级和大门，而它就变成了一个庞然大物。

So, part of the problem was the unfocused strategy, and then the other part of the problem was an unwillingness to frankly make bold decisions, say no, pick a lane and actually take pain in the short term for the long term.

因此，问题的一部分是战略不集中，而问题的另一部分是不愿意坦率地做出大胆的决定，说不，选择一条道路，并在短期内真正承受长期的痛苦。

We rolled out this new pricing, and this is even before the Fin pricing you're talking about.

我们推出了这个新的定价，这甚至早于您所说的 Fin 定价。

When I came back and I said, "Yes, we're going to lose a lot of revenue here." I can't remember how much we wrote down, but we actually have already given away something like $50 million in ARR.

当我回来时，我说：“是的，我们会损失很多收入。”我不记得我们写下了多少，但实际上我们已经捐出了大约 5000 万美元的 ARR。

Eoghan McCabe: We've reduced the prices for a lot of customers just to give them way simpler pricing because surprise, surprise, when people feel like they have far simpler, more predictable, fairer pricing, they'll stick around longer and it creates so much more ease in the company and promotes a healthier relationship with the customer too.

Eoghan McCabe：我们降低了很多客户的价格，只是为了给他们提供更简单的定价，因为惊喜，惊喜，当人们觉得他们的定价更简单、更可预测、更公平时，他们会坚持更长时间，这让公司更加轻松，也促进了与客户更健康的关系。

When our people saw that we were screwing customers effectively in every direction, it starts to erode the idea that we care about our customers and then they make other customer-unfriendly decisions.

当我们的员工看到我们在各个方面有效地欺骗客户时，我们关心客户的想法就开始受到侵蚀，然后他们就会做出其他对客户不友好的决定。

And so one of the values I promoted when I came back was that we would be customer-obsessed, and so we had to kill our old pricing and give away a lot of revenue.

因此，当我回来时，我宣扬的价值观之一就是我们将以客户为中心，因此我们必须取消旧的定价并放弃大量收入。

So, that was the spirit behind the changes.

这就是变革背后的精神。

But we can talk about the Fin pricing if you want to also.

但如果您愿意，我们也可以讨论 Fin 的定价。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's save that because that's a really important topic that I think people need to hear.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们保留这个，因为这是一个非常重要的话题，我认为人们需要听到。

Let's talk about the shift and how you made this actually happen.

让我们来谈谈这一转变以及您是如何实现这一转变的。

You make it sound like, oh, not fully, but it's oh, we have to do, it wasn't working anyway.

你让它听起来像是，哦，不完全，但它是哦，我们必须这样做，无论如何它都不起作用。

There's no risk to go all in on this AI thing.

全力投入人工智能这个事情是没有风险的。

You're making $150 million a year ARR, you're worth at least a billion dollars at that point as a business.

您每年的 ARR 收入为 1.5 亿美元，届时您的企业价值至少为 10 亿美元。

Yeah.

是的。

Eoghan McCabe: We were making more money than that, so we were like multiple hundreds of millions.

Eoghan McCabe：我们赚的钱比这个多，所以我们的收入大概有数亿。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，好的。

Very difficult to actually do even if things don't feel like they're growing anymore.

即使事情感觉不再增长，实际上也很难做到。

So, first of all, just what was the moment, if there was one, of just like, okay, the six-week experiment of someone building a Fin internally, was that being like, this is it, or was there another moment of like, let's go all in on this?

所以，首先，如果有一个这样的时刻，好吧，有人在内部构建 Fin 的为期六周的实验，是这样的，就是这样，还是还有另一个这样的时刻，让我们全力以赴？

Eoghan McCabe: It was the combination of the company being older, us all, me and the founders being impatient like, are we going to make something out of this?

Eoghan McCabe：公司变得更老了，我们所有人、我和创始人都变得不耐烦，我们要从中做点什么吗？

We went through a time when the company was worth a lot.

我们经历了公司价值很高的时期。

We're private so we don't have a daily mark to market, but all the other public software companies dropped 80%, 85, 90%.

我们是私营公司，因此没有每日市场份额，但所有其他公共软件公司的股价都下降了 80%、85%、90%。

We saw our revenue growth crater.

我们看到我们的收入增长陷入困境。

We were used to nice double digits.

我们已经习惯了漂亮的两位数。

We were in low single digits.

我们处于低个位数。

And so part of it was, let's do something here.

所以其中的一部分是，让我们在这里做点什么。

Another part of it was my own anger and dissatisfaction with how the company was being run and the mistakes that I made myself.

另一部分是我自己对公司的运营方式以及我自己所犯的错误的愤怒和不满。

I made a lot of compromises as a lot of founders and founding CEOs do to placate employees or do it out fear to bring investors along, following advice in the industry and best practices.

正如许多创始人和创始首席执行官所做的那样，我做出了很多妥协，以安抚员工或消除对投资者的恐惧，遵循行业建议和最佳实践。

Eoghan McCabe: You betray your intuition in little bits and pieces over the years when the bright spark of your original idea turns into this big, unstoppable, scary corporate beast and a little bit of you dies every single time you go and betray yourself in that way.

伊根·麦凯布（Eoghan McCabe）：多年来，当你最初想法的明亮火花变成了这头巨大的、不可阻挡的、可怕的企业野兽时，你一点一点地背叛了你的直觉，而每次你以这种方式背叛自己时，你的一点点就会死去。

If you could pick in your mind three or four tech darlings from 10 years ago when you meet the CEO and talk to them privately, very few of them feel outstanding about the state of their culture and the decisions that they make and the way in which they have to work.

当你与首席执行官见面并私下交谈时，如果你能在脑海中选出三四个十年前的科技宠儿，你会发现他们中很少有人对自己的文化状况、做出的决策以及工作方式感到出色。

All of them have betrayed themselves in little ways, and I had left the business, I was super sick, I was burned out frankly from the revenue even having started to slow down before I left.

他们所有人都在一些小方面背叛了自己，而我离开了公司，我病得很厉害，坦率地说，我对收入感到精疲力竭，即使在我离开之前已经开始放缓。

Eoghan McCabe: I had been attacked unfairly in the press, just all of me was just fed up and I decided to take a very authoritarian, top-down, aggressive founder-first approach to all the things, and I found that deeply cathartic and that was the thing that led to me in part.

伊根·麦凯布（Eoghan McCabe）：我在媒体上受到了不公平的攻击，只是我所有人都受够了，我决定对所有事情采取一种非常专制的、自上而下的、激进的创始人至上的方法，我发现这具有深刻的宣泄作用，这在一定程度上导致了我的成长。

The other was just good old-fashioned logic and the other was desperation saying, we're doing the AI thing, the AI thing, exciting and sexy.

另一个只是很好的老式逻辑，另一个是绝望地说，我们正在做人工智能的事情，人工智能的事情，令人兴奋和性感。

We need some new energy thing here.

我们这里需要一些新能源。

The new AI thing makes sense.

新的人工智能事物是有道理的。

And also just my intuition says, go for it.

而且我的直觉告诉我，去做吧。

And so when people tell these stories, they rewrite history in their minds for the stories to be elegant and also so that they support their own self-aggrandized narratives about their brilliance.

因此，当人们讲述这些故事时，他们会在脑海中重写历史，使故事变得优雅，同时也支持他们自我夸大的关于自己辉煌的叙述。

Actually, it's a big messy cocktail of things.

事实上，这是一大堆混乱的鸡尾酒。

And anyway, that's my attempt at explaining the cocktail.

不管怎样，这就是我对鸡尾酒的解释。

Lenny Rachitsky: I saw a stat that when you first launched, when you first had this kind of prototype, you were losing money on every transaction that you're charging like a dollar, it cost you $120, something like that.

Lenny Rachitsky：我看到一个统计数据，当你第一次推出时，当你第一次拥有这种原型时，你在每笔收取 1 美元费用的交易中都会赔钱，它花费了你 120 美元，类似的东西。

Eoghan McCabe: That's right.

伊根·麦凯布：没错。

120 cents.

120 美分。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

Lenny Rachitsky: 120 cents.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：120 美分。

Okay.

好的。

So, there's a lot of vision here if this is going to get to a place where this actually will be great and affordable.

因此，如果这将达到一个真正伟大且负担得起的地方，这里有很多愿景。

Eoghan McCabe: It's really funny.

伊根·麦凯布：这真的很有趣。

We charge 99 cents to resolve tickets, customer problems, and we have a higher resolution rate than anyone else, and we are proud of that and we obsess over that.

我们收取 99 美分的费用来解决票务、客户问题，而且我们的解决率比其他任何人都高，我们对此感到自豪并对此着迷。

It is the metric by which these agents are assessed, and we wanted our revenue to be 100% aligned with the value that they attained because we had all this scar tissue from pricing prior that felt unfair to customers.

这是评估这些代理商的指标，我们希望我们的收入与他们获得的价值 100% 一致，因为我们之前的定价留下了所有这些疤痕，让客户感觉不公平。

So, we said, what's the most fair that we can possibly find?

所以，我们说，我们能找到的最公平的是什么？

Now, when we did all our research, we found that many SaaS businesses were spending between 20 and $30 per ticket resolved.

现在，当我们进行所有研究时，我们发现许多 SaaS 企业为解决每个问题花费了 20 到 30 美元。

We were spending 22.

我们花了22。

Now, consumer businesses, maybe they go down to $5.

现在，消费者企业的价格可能会降至 5 美元。

We were thinking, can we charge $10?

我们在想，我们可以收取 10 美元吗？

That seems fair.

这看起来很公平。

It's half price.

这是半价。

Can we charge $5?

我们可以收取 5 美元吗？

Can we even charge two and a half dollars?

我们甚至可以收取两块半美元吗？

But early on we started to sense that people just wouldn't value the digital work as much as the human work, even though the digital work is better, more consistent, always available, makes the customer far happier.

但我们很早就开始意识到，人们不会像人类工作那样重视数字工作，尽管数字工作更好、更一致、始终可用，让客户更满意。

Eoghan McCabe: And so we actually started to lean into a price that we thought would be was the nexus between us earning the most and it being the most palatable.

Eoghan McCabe：所以我们实际上开始倾向于一个我们认为是我们收入最多和最容易接受之间联系的价格。

We basically said that if someone is not prepared to pay 99 cent for us to rapidly and elegantly perfectly and excellently solve their customer's problem, we need to wrap this up.

我们基本上是说，如果有人不准备支付 99 美分让我们快速、优雅、完美、出色地解决他们客户的问题，我们就需要结束这件事。

We don't have a business here.

我们这里没有生意。

So, that was where the 99 cent came from.

所以，这就是99美分的由来。

I always believe that that pricing should come from value and not from costs.

我始终认为，定价应该来自价值，而不是成本。

The cost is our problem.

成本是我们的问题。

We just had this sense and intuition early on that this thing will get cheaper and it got a lot cheaper.

我们很早就有这种感觉和直觉，这东西会变得更便宜，而且会便宜很多。

The margin moves around, but we make a margin that makes this more than worth our while, and we know our customers get an excellent deal and are able to deliver to their customers a level of service that they never could before.

利润会有所变化，但我们赚取的利润让我们的付出变得非常值得，而且我们知道我们的客户得到了很好的交易，并且能够向他们的客户提供他们以前从未提供过的服务水平。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's a very clear pitch.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常清晰的推介。

We just had Madhavan the podcast and the pricing expert, and he has this phrase, beautifully simple pricing is where you want to get to.

我们刚刚请来了播客和定价专家 Madhavan，他有这样一句话，“精美简单的定价就是你想要达到的目标”。

Also, he's a huge fan of outcome-based pricing, which is what you're describing here, where you pay for an outcome.

此外，他是基于结果的定价的忠实拥护者，这就是您在这里所描述的，即您为结果付费。

So, you guys are in the magic quadrant of his pricing advice.

所以，你们都在他的定价建议的魔力象限中。

Eoghan McCabe: Yes, thank God our pricing wars are over.

Eoghan McCabe：是的，感谢上帝，我们的价格战结束了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so going back to how you actually did this thing.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，那么回到你实际上是如何做这件事的。

So, basically you described what many people think of now as founder mode, just top down, as you said, the third area, and just here's what we're doing.

所以，基本上你描述了许多人现在认为的创始人模式，就像你所说的，自上而下的第三个领域，这就是我们正在做的事情。

We're not going to sit around waiting for you to give me ideas.

我们不会坐等你给我想法。

What did you do?

你做了什么？

What did that look like internally?

内部是什么样的？

Eoghan McCabe: There was a couple of things.

Eoghan McCabe：有几件事。

One was we were burning a lot of money, so I cut a lot of costs aggressively.

一是我们烧了很多钱，所以我大幅削减了很多成本。

Canned a bunch of different projects.

罐头了一堆不同的项目。

We had this big glorious office we were about to fit out and I'm like, we're about to hit negative growth territory, stop it.

我们有一个华丽的大办公室，我们即将装修，我想，我们即将达到负增长领域，停止它。

And a lot of companies were really stuck in the prior world where they just were used to being super successful, rich and wealthy and spent like drunken sailors.

许多公司确实陷入了以前的世界，他们只是习惯了超级成功、富有和富有，像醉酒的水手一样挥霍。

So, I stopped all of that, got really frugal in ways I never thought I would.

所以，我停止了这一切，以我从未想过的方式变得非常节俭。

I still haven't touched the interior design of this office.

我还没有接触过这个办公室的室内设计。

I'm in here, even though I call it the hotel Marriott, I'm sick of it.

我在这里，尽管我称它为万豪酒店，但我已经厌倦了。

Anyway, that was one.

无论如何，那是一个。

Another was picked a lane.

另一个被选了一条车道。

Strategically we were all over the place and I said, "We're doing service." Zendesk had been acquired a couple years prior.

从战略上讲，我们遍布各处，我说：“我们正在提供服务。” Zendesk 几年前被收购。

Eoghan McCabe: They were strategically, energetically, culturally dead.

伊根·麦凯布（Eoghan McCabe）：他们在战略上、精力上和文化上都死了。

They were upsetting customers in the market.

他们让市场上的顾客感到不安。

There's an opportunity there.

那里有一个机会。

We're doing service, forget all the other stuff, even though there was a lot of people in the company saying, well, shit, we still have $80 million of ARR that we're getting from the other thing and we're really good at that, and there's a big opportunity.

我们正在做服务，忘记所有其他事情，尽管公司里有很多人说，好吧，狗屎，我们仍然有 8000 万美元的 ARR，我们从其他事情中获得，我们真的很擅长，而且有一个很大的机会。

There's other companies in this space worth billions.

这个领域还有其他价值数十亿美元的公司。

It was the type of decision that where I had to practice the professional CEO approach, which is, "Hey folks, what do you all think?

在这种决策中，我必须实践专业的首席执行官方法，即“嘿伙计们，你们觉得怎么样？

Let's take everyone's input.

让我们听取大家的意见。

Let's put it all down on a spreadsheet." Everyone had color beside all of the different options that we may take.

让我们把一切都写在电子表格上。”除了我们可能采取的所有不同选择之外，每个人都有颜色。

Let's make a group decision.

让我们做出集体决定。

I said, "Sorry, this is what we're doing." So, I was very dictatorial in that respect.

我说：“抱歉，这就是我们正在做的事情。”所以，我在这方面非常独裁。

We had no one making decisions, so somebody needed to, even if I had some qualms about the decisions myself, I couldn't predict the future, but someone had to make a call.

我们没有人做决定，所以需要有人来做，即使我自己对这些决定有一些疑虑，我无法预测未来，但必须有人打电话。

Eoghan McCabe: Obviously as soon as AI came around, I jumped hard on AI and announced that we were going to spend nearly $100 million of our own cash on that.

Eoghan McCabe：显然，人工智能一出现，我就大力投入人工智能，并宣布我们将为此花费近 1 亿美元的自有现金。

We allocated a lot of capital, but I also restarted the culture.

我们分配了很多资金，但我也重新启动了文化。

We had just a very comfortable culture as a lot of companies did.

正如许多公司一样，我们拥有一种非常舒适的文化。

There was a lot of focus on social issues and a lot of complaining and dissatisfaction, and I rewrote the values designed to be a sharp knife to cut out the parts of the company that I just knew wouldn't be effective.

人们对社会问题有很多关注，也有很多抱怨和不满，我重写了价值观，设计成一把锋利的刀，砍掉公司中我刚刚知道不会有效的部分。

So, I said that people must be resilient, that we had very high standards, that we'd work incredibly hard, that shareholder value was the most important thing that we'd optimize for.

所以，我说人们必须有韧性，我们有非常高的标准，我们会非常努力地工作，股东价值是我们要优化的最重要的事情。

A lot of things that were controversial for this prior crowd.

对于之前的人群来说，很多事情都是有争议的。

And then I designed these quarterly performance processes where not only would you get a mark or a grade for your performance against your goals that quarter, but you'd also get a score for your behavior against the values.

然后我设计了这些季度绩效流程，您不仅会根据该季度的目标获得绩效评分或等级，还会根据价值观获得行为评分。

Eoghan McCabe: And I hard coded a formula myself, and so I took it out of the manager's hands to say, if people got below a certain mark, respectfully and lovingly, we would say, thank you for your service.

Eoghan McCabe：我自己硬编码了一个公式，所以我从经理手中接过它，说，如果人们低于某个分数，我们会尊敬地、充满爱心地说，谢谢你的服务。

We're going to go forward without you.

没有你，我们也要继续前进。

And so you do that just a small number of quarters and you can start to shape an organization that's design and the image of the values you want to create.

因此，只需几个季度，您就可以开始塑造一个组织，该组织的设计和形象符合您想要创造的价值。

And obviously there was a lot of pain, a lot of satisfaction.

显然，有很多痛苦，也有很多满足。

There was attempts at soft coup, there was letters sent to the board, people really unhappy, but on the other side of it, the people left were the most incredible entrepreneurial, brave, inspiring, happy individuals you could possibly imagine.

有人试图软政变，有人向董事会发送信件，人们真的很不高兴，但另一方面，剩下的人是你能想象到的最令人难以置信的企业家、勇敢、鼓舞人心、快乐的人。

And then you hire in their image.

然后你按照他们的形象进行招聘。

We ran an anonymous employee survey, I think 15 or 16 months after I started aggressively working through the org and rebuilding the org and rebuilding the culture, and we had a 98 to 99% approval of management, leadership and new strategy.

我们进行了一项匿名员工调查，我想在我开始积极地在组织中工作并重建组织和文化之后 15 或 16 个月，我们对管理层、领导力和新战略的认可度达到了 98% 到 99%。

Eoghan McCabe: And this is coming from me having the lowest Glassdoor rating for a CEO I had ever seen when I came back.

Eoghan McCabe：这是我回来后所见过的 Glassdoor 首席执行官评分最低的结果。

So, I just want to explain that being that deliberate about your culture and upsetting a lot of people is the path through which you can create a culture where people are super happy, super engaged, super aligned, and now we have just this highly performant organization.

所以，我只是想解释一下，对你的文化深思熟虑并让很多人感到不安，这是你可以创造一种让人们超级快乐、超级投入、超级一致的文化的途径，现在我们有了这个高性能的组织。

Yes, we're messy in many ways.

是的，我们在很多方面都很混乱。

So, that was a big part of it too.

所以，这也是其中很重要的一部分。

So, it was kind of strategically picking a lane.

所以，这是一种战略性的选择路线。

Remaking how we go to market, the pricing was a really, really big piece that had a big effect.

重新调整我们进入市场的方式，定价是一个非常非常大的部分，产生了很大的影响。

Betting on AI and then culture.

押注人工智能，然后押注文化。

And I kind of buried the AI thing because frankly none of this would matter if we didn't bet on AI.

我有点埋葬了人工智能的事情，因为坦率地说，如果我们不押注于人工智能，这一切都不重要。

So, the story could all be summed up by saying, when you ask what did I do, it was that we built Fin and that changed everything.

所以，这个故事可以概括为，当你问我做了什么时，我们建造了 Fin，改变了一切。

Lenny Rachitsky: You said that this was very unpopular.

Lenny Rachitsky：你说这很不受欢迎。

I imagine many people were not happy with all the change and how top-down this was, you said there was a soft coup.

我想很多人对所有的变化并不满意，这是自上而下的，你说这是一场软政变。

Is there more you could share about that?

对此您还有更多可以分享的吗？

I never heard that story.

我从来没有听说过那个故事。

Eoghan McCabe: When you make that degree of change and you tell people that they're in control like we did in the previous generation of late-stage businesses, there's going to be some friction when you change the rules.

Eoghan McCabe：当你做出这种程度的改变，并告诉人们他们处于控制之中，就像我们在上一代后期企业中所做的那样，当你改变规则时，将会出现一些摩擦。

And it's my strong belief that great employees and great companies want and are constructed out of a very clear and strong hierarchy where it is the responsibility of the CEO to make brave and hard decisions unilaterally, yes, using their experts as inputs and be responsible for the outcome.

我坚信，优秀的员工和伟大的公司需要并建立在一个非常清晰和强大的等级制度之上，首席执行官有责任单方面做出勇敢而艰难的决定，是的，利用他们的专家作为投入并对结果负责。

If I make decisions that propel the company in the way that thankfully my decisions have, I get rewards and kudos and I get to go back to the board and say, I want a bigger grant.

如果我做出的决定能够像我的决定那样推动公司发展，我会得到奖励和荣誉，并且我可以回到董事会并说，我想要更多的资助。

If I don't, I get fired and I should get fired.

如果我不这样做，我就会被解雇，而且我应该被解雇。

If my big, brave, unilateral decisions put us in the toilet, then I have to take responsibility for that also.

如果我的重大、勇敢的单方面决定让我们陷入困境，那么我也必须为此承担责任。

Eoghan McCabe: So, that's how in my humble opinion, it should work.

Eoghan McCabe：所以，以我的拙见，它应该是这样运作的。

And I, for one, don't know of a great company that doesn't work that way.

就我而言，我不知道哪家伟大的公司不是这样运作的。

You'll see from time to time, I did this a couple of years ago, people will construct these indexes of the performance of companies that are founder led, and of course this is a self-serving statement, but it's also true.

你会时不时地看到，几年前我就这样做了，人们会构建这些由创始人领导的公司的绩效指数，当然这是一种自私的说法，但这也是事实。

And surprise, surprise, the founder led companies perform substantially better because they have the moral authority and the willingness to take the risks that the professional CEOs don't have the remit for.

令人惊讶的是，创始人领导的公司表现明显更好，因为他们拥有道德权威，并且愿意承担职业首席执行官没有职权范围的风险。

The professional CEOs are typically told, don't mess things up, and the founders are bored if they're not taking the risk of messing things up from time to time.

职业首席执行官通常被告知，不要把事情搞砸，而创始人如果不时不时地冒着把事情搞砸的风险，他们就会感到无聊。

And so that's in my opinion, what creates greatness and great innovation.

在我看来，这就是创造伟大和伟大创新的因素。

But like I said, there will be friction changing a company that's configured for democracy and committee decisions and soft and gentle interactions and communication to be properly founder led and top down.

但就像我说的，如果一家公司的配置是民主和委员会决策，以及温和的互动和沟通，以适当的创始人领导和自上而下的方式进行改变，那么将会存在摩擦。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, a big lesson here is if you're trying to make the shift and it's just not moving, there's a lot of resistance.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，这里的一个重要教训是，如果你试图做出转变，但它只是停滞不前，就会遇到很多阻力。

You may need to go hardcore founder mode and make some significant change.

您可能需要进入核心创始人模式并做出一些重大改变。

What percentage of the employees kind of turned over during this period?

在此期间离职的员工比例是多少？

Eoghan McCabe: Could be something ultimately like 40%.

Eoghan McCabe：最终可能是 40% 左右。

So, it was a big, big turnover over some couple number of years.

因此，这是几年来非常非常大的人员流动。

Often the culture is set by a very small number of people, so it only took a quarter to really start to change the tenor of the conversations that were happening, but to bring in the people that were that new level of ambition and wanted to work as hard as the rest of us and work in a mature and engaged in excited way, that took a little longer time.

通常，文化是由极少数人设定的，因此只需要四分之一的时间就可以真正开始改变正在发生的对话的基调，但要引入那些有新的雄心壮志、想要像我们其他人一样努力工作、以成熟和兴奋的方式工作的人，需要更长的时间。

There's such a thing as product market fit.

有一个产品市场契合度这样的事情。

There's a thing as founder market fit, there's a thing as founder, product market fit.

有创始人市场契合度，也有创始人产品市场契合度。

That's how you're doing it right, but there's also such a thing as employee, founder, product market fit.

这就是正确的做法，但还有员工、创始人、产品市场契合度等因素。

You have to have the right employees for the type of business you're creating, and there are companies that want the need to be more stable and they're going to want the need to hire more stable individuals.

您必须拥有适合您正在创建的业务类型的员工，并且有些公司希望需要更加稳定，并且他们会希望需要雇用更稳定的个人。

Eoghan McCabe: There's going to be companies that want to do the highly collaborative, more democratic thing.

Eoghan McCabe：将会有一些公司想要做高度协作、更民主的事情。

I wouldn't invest in them, but there's companies that want to do it.

我不会投资他们，但有些公司想这么做。

If you're an employee that enjoys that, there are a lot of positions out there.

如果您是一名喜欢这样做的员工，那么那里有很多职位。

There are big companies like Google that do that.

像谷歌这样的大公司就是这样做的。

There are startups that hire the crazy, young, wild, messy, early startup people, and that's great for them and the company too.

有些初创公司雇佣了疯狂的、年轻的、狂野的、混乱的、早期的初创公司员工，这对他们和公司来说都是好事。

So, it's really all about having the right individuals and when you create that, not only do you create great success, but you just create a lot more happiness and balance and harmony.

因此，真正关键的是拥有合适的人，当你创造出合适的人时，你不仅会创造巨大的成功，而且会创造更多的幸福、平衡与和谐。

Ultimately, the employees who wanted a more gentle democratic environment, they're not going to be happy in a company like Intercom or Coinbase or any of these strong organizations.

最终，那些想要更温和民主环境的员工，他们不会在像 Intercom 或 Coinbase 这样的公司或任何这些强大的组织中感到高兴。

They'll be more happy somewhere else.

他们在其他地方会更快乐。

So, even if it requires a little bit of a loving push out the door, I know that you're actually doing them a favor in the medium to long run.

因此，即使需要一点点爱的推动，我知道从中长期来看，你实际上是在帮他们一个忙。

Lenny Rachitsky: I was going to say that a lot of these people will be happier working in a different company.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想说的是，很多人在不同的公司工作会更开心。

Eoghan McCabe: Absolutely.

伊根·麦凯布：当然。

Who wants to go to war every day with your organization and in Slack?

谁愿意每天与您的组织和 Slack 开战？

That's just not fun.

那根本不好玩。

That's not good for the nervous system or the soul.

这对神经系统或灵魂都不好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, so this whole period sounds very stressful for you.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，所以这整个时期对你来说听起来压力很大。

Did you ever regret coming back and just like, what the hell did I get myself into?

你有没有后悔回来，然后想，我到底把自己卷入了什么境地？

What am I doing to myself?

我在对自己做什么？

Eoghan McCabe: I never regretted coming back, but I have many moments where I don't enjoy the job.

Eoghan McCabe：我从不后悔回来，但我有很多时候不喜欢这份工作。

I didn't regret coming back because it was deeply cathartic for me.

我并不后悔回来，因为这对我来说是一种深深的宣泄。

When a founder runs away from their business, it is the ultimate betrayal of their heart and the dream that they have.

当创始人逃离自己的企业时，这是对他们内心和梦想的最终背叛。

Now, it's okay to wrap things up and quit, but when you kind of run away, like I kind of had to because I was sick and burned out and kind of disenchanted, I don't know, it didn't feel good.

现在，结束事情并退出是可以的，但是当你有点逃跑时，就像我不得不这样做，因为我生病了，精疲力竭，有点失望，我不知道，感觉不太好。

So, especially when I had done that, having betrayed in a million or a thousand small ways, my intuition, there was something I needed to exercise.

所以，特别是当我这样做时，以一百万或一千个小方式背叛了我的直觉，我需要锻炼一些东西。

So, it has been deeply meaningful in that respect.

因此，从这方面来看，这是非常有意义的。

And then of course, I'm fortunate that it worked out.

当然，我很幸运它成功了。

I get to be on the second most popular podcast in tech.

我成为科技领域第二受欢迎的播客。

I get to pat myself on the back in front of all these people.

我可以在这么多人面前拍拍自己的背。

Who wouldn't want that?

谁不想要这样呢？

Eoghan McCabe: That said, the reality is that for particularly people like me who like the adventure and the high agency being unilateral, day-to-day movement where you're trying to make big, wild, bold decisions, the reality is that if you're successful, most of your days will not be that.

伊根·麦凯布：话虽如此，现实是，对于像我这样喜欢冒险和喜欢单方面的日常运动的高级机构的人来说，现实是，如果你成功了，你的大部分日子都不会这样。

It'll be reviewing the bonus policy for next year and reviewing the comp proposal for your execs for the next year.

它将审查明年的奖金政策，并审查高管明年的薪酬建议。

It will be showing up for accountability meetings and stepping through the status of different work streams.

它将出现在问责会议上并逐步了解不同工作流程的状态。

It'll be rushing from meeting to meeting, having 8, 9, 10 meetings a day.

会议会很匆忙，一天要开 8、9、10 个会议。

I don't happen to believe that that's a great way to live your life.

我不认为这是一种很好的生活方式。

It'll be trying to get to all the emails you need to get to such that all those people aren't offended and hurt and trying to communicate in the ways with your staff and your team that is empathetic and thoughtful and keeps in mind that they may be having as shit a day as you are.

它将尽力处理您需要处理的所有电子邮件，以便所有这些人都不会被冒犯和伤害，并尝试以富有同情心和体贴的方式与您的员工和团队进行沟通，并记住他们可能会像您一样度过糟糕的一天。

Eoghan McCabe: You're giving me an opportunity to paint story of this maverick led adventure that you might imagine in a comic.

伊根·麦凯布：你给了我一个机会来描绘这个特立独行的冒险故事，就像你在漫画中想象的那样。

I'm for some reason picturing TinTin sail the seas, this swashbuckling adventure.

出于某种原因，我会想象丁丁出海航行的情景，这是一场虚张声势的冒险。

It's not.

它不是。

It's corporate life kind of sucks particularly for people like me.

企业生活有点糟糕，尤其是对于像我这样的人来说。

So, I have many of those days, and so the only reason I'm still around is that I have a broader mission that makes it worthwhile for now, but that's why you see so many of our best founders get to a point where they're like, okay, I've had enough corporate fun.

所以，我有很多这样的日子，所以我仍然存在的唯一原因是我有一个更广泛的使命，这使得它现在是值得的，但这就是为什么你看到我们这么多最好的创始人达到这样的地步，好吧，我已经玩够了公司的乐趣。

So, that's the most authentic answer I could give you.

所以，这是我能给你的最真实的答案。

No regrets coming back, but plenty of pain on a day-to-day basis.

回来并不后悔，但每天都有很多痛苦。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天的节目是由 DX 为您带来的，DX 是由领先研究人员设计的开发者智能平台。

To thrive in the AI era organizations need to adapt quickly, but many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like which tools are working, how are they being used, what's actually driving value?

为了在人工智能时代蓬勃发展，组织需要快速适应，但许多组织领导者很难回答紧迫的问题，例如哪些工具正在发挥作用，它们如何使用，什么真正推动了价值？

DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift.

DX 提供领导者应对这一转变所需的数据和见解。

With DX, companies like Dropbox, Booking.com, Adyen and Intercom get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity.

借助 DX，Dropbox、Booking.com、Adyen 和 Intercom 等公司可以深入了解 AI 如何为其开发人员提供价值以及 AI 对工程生产力的影响。

To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com/lenny, that's getdx.com/lenny.

要了解更多信息，请访问 DX 的网站 getdx.com/lenny，即 getdx.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: One of the interesting things about this space of agents, there's all this talk, agents are taking over.

Lenny Rachitsky：关于特工这个领域的有趣的事情之一，就是所有这些谈话，特工正在接管。

It's the future of software.

这是软件的未来。

SaaS is going to be replaced with agents.

SaaS 将被代理所取代。

CX is a classic.

CX 是一个经典。

It just feels like, I imagine looking forward, it was not obvious.

只是感觉，我想展望未来，这并不明显。

Now looking back, it's like obviously this is an amazing place for agents to take over work, but there's always this talk of agents will do everything and all the SaaS software is going to be replaced by agents.

现在回想起来，显然这是一个代理接管工作的好地方，但总是有这样的说法：代理将包揽一切，所有 SaaS 软件都将被代理取代。

Do you have a sense of just how far this disruption will go outside of CX because it's already happening in your businesses?

由于这种情况已经在您的企业中发生，您是否知道这种颠覆将在 CX 之外产生多大影响？

Eoghan McCabe: The first thing I'll say is that CX is deceptively large given it's hidden behind just two words, two letters.

Eoghan McCabe：我要说的第一件事是，CX 看起来很大，因为它只隐藏在两个单词、两个字母后面。

Customer experience really is service success, sales and marketing, in my opinion.

在我看来，客户体验确实是服务、销售和营销的成功。

It's all engagement with all customers.

这都是与所有客户的互动。

It's the biggest part by headcount of any business.

这是所有企业中员工人数最多的部分。

Any consumer business and any B2B business the biggest organizations are sales, service, success.

任何消费者业务和任何 B2B 业务最大的组织都是销售、服务、成功。

So, I'll talk about things other than CX in a moment, but I want to emphasize that CX is the majority of business operations.

因此，我稍后会讨论 CX 以外的事情，但我想强调 CX 是业务运营的主要部分。

Of course, it'll go beyond CX.

当然，它会超越 CX。

Any function that requires a lot repetitive operational mechanical work will be automated, whether it's chasing or collecting or issuing invoices, it could be onboarding or offboarding employees.

任何需要大量重复性操作机械工作的功能都将实现自动化，无论是追踪还是收集或开具发票，也可能是员工入职或离职。

Eoghan McCabe: There are so many repetitive jobs in an organization that it'll start to replace.

Eoghan McCabe：组织中有太多重复性的工作，因此它将开始被取代。

One of the interesting questions is how much will be generic operations bots, how much will be expert agents?

有趣的问题之一是，有多少是通用操作机器人，有多少是专家代理？

There are expert agents for law and contract review.

有法律和合同审查的专家代理人。

There will probably be expert agents for accounting, but you'll need the glue in between all of these agents too.

可能会有专业的会计代理，但您也需要所有这些代理之间的粘合剂。

But future organizations will be agents everywhere.

但未来的组织将是无处不在的代理。

I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about what does it all look like in the future, and I imagine it as a medley of humans and agents, and I don't think it's obviously going to be humans on the top and the agents all in the IC roles.

我花了相当多的时间思考未来这一切会是什么样子，我把它想象成人类和特工的混合体，而且我不认为显然会是人类处于顶端而特工都担任 IC 角色。

I think that'll be more of a complex mix where you're going to have people that are like managers and leaders, but they'll be in IC roles, working with agents to configure them for success and monitor and manage their progress, kind of add that oversight and cover for edge cases.

我认为这将是一个更加复杂的组合，你将拥有类似经理和领导者的人员，但他们将担任 IC 角色，与代理合作，为他们的成功进行配置，并监控和管理他们的进度，增加监督和边缘情况的覆盖。

And so I think we're going to be surprised in which the way that these organizations go, they'll definitely be smaller, they'll be flatter because of that.

因此，我认为我们会对这些组织的发展方式感到惊讶，它们肯定会更小，因此会更扁平。

Eoghan McCabe: I won't be surprised if there are agents at the highest level too.

Eoghan McCabe：如果也有最高级别的特工，我不会感到惊讶。

I mean, I've been thinking about how, and we do have a great human chief of staff here, but imagine a future human chief of staff that understands your priorities and actually talks to you and does a check in each day and reaches out to different people and ask for updates and helps organize your priorities and helps you remember who you need to keep accountable.

我的意思是，我一直在思考如何做到这一点，我们这里确实有一位伟大的人类参谋长，但想象一下未来的人类参谋长，他了解你的优先事项，实际上与你交谈，每天进行检查，与不同的人联系，询问最新情况，帮助组织你的优先事项，并帮助你记住你需要对谁负责。

Clearly there's an opportunity for that.

显然这是有机会的。

And so you can imagine agents in specific roles like customer service in operational roles being glue and in being kind of like co-pilot or assistant roles like that, which I mentioned.

因此，您可以想象担任特定角色的代理，例如运营角色中的客户服务人员，以及我提到的副驾驶或助理角色。

But what I think that all brings is just epic levels of efficiency.

但我认为这一切带来的只是史诗级的效率。

It's going to be super deflationary.

这将是超级通货紧缩。

There'll be a lot more competition.

将会有更多的竞争。

AI itself is insanely competitive right now.

人工智能本身现在的竞争非常激烈。

Eoghan McCabe: It's so intense in a way that was never before that's going to come to all industries when so much of their inner workings becomes automated.

Eoghan McCabe：当所有行业的内部运作都实现自动化时，这种强度是前所未有的。

And ultimately I think it's going to be great for the consumer.

最终我认为这对消费者来说是件好事。

They'll have more options, cheaper options, and I can't but see that be great for the economy, a lot of economic lubricant as it were, and a lot of new movement and activity.

他们将有更多的选择，更便宜的选择，我不得不看到这对经济有好处，可以说是很多经济润滑剂，以及很多新的运动和活动。

And if we were to really go off the reservation, but I'll stop here, that means that we need more humans too.

如果我们真的取消保留，但我就到此为止，这意味着我们也需要更多的人。

We need population growth to show up for this big growth economically.

我们需要人口增长来体现经济的大幅增长。

And yeah, I just see the future as just a beautiful collaboration between humans and agents in every direction.

是的，我只是认为未来是人类和智能体在各个方向上的美好合作。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love the optimism.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢乐观。

Someone described this once as a society ...

有人曾经形容这是一个社会......

What is it?

它是什么？

Agentic society where it's us and agents living together.

我们和代理人生活在一起的代理社会。

Lenny Rachitsky: This begs the question around just jobs.

Lenny Rachitsky：这引出了关于就业的问题。

We had Marc Benioff on the podcast.

我们的播客中有马克·贝尼奥夫。

He's all agent force, agent force, agent force, and asked him just like, what jobs do you think are going away?

他都是特工，特工，特工，我问他，你认为哪些工作会消失？

He's just like, "CX, going away, gone.

他只是说，“CX，走了，走了。

Sales not going away.

销售不会消失。

We need sales people." Just what's your sense?

我们需要销售人员。”你的感觉是什么？

I know it's like touchy subject.

我知道这是个敏感话题。

No one ever wants to say jobs are going away, but just what's your sense of where jobs might be disappearing more, most?

没有人想说工作岗位正在消失，但您认为哪些工作岗位可能会消失得更多、最多？

Eoghan McCabe: Yeah.

伊根·麦凯布：是的。

Well, I don't find it to be particularly touchy because jobs have always gone away and technology has done a really good job at stealing jobs that we're repetitive, demeaning, dangerous.

嗯，我觉得这并不是特别敏感，因为工作总是会消失，而技术在偷走我们重复的、有辱人格的、危险的工作方面做得非常好。

We have less people losing limbs and dangerous factories or dying and suffocating down mines because of the technology that we now have available to us.

由于我们现在拥有的技术，我们减少了失去四肢和危险工厂或在矿井中死亡和窒息的人数。

People breaking their backs on farms or just doing things that's highly demeaning to the great, beautiful creative potential of each human individual life.

人们在农场里辛苦劳作，或者只是做一些严重贬低每个人生命伟大而美丽的创造潜力的事情。

So, I won't apologize for competing with or competing for shit work because all the while technology has done that in the past, population has increased.

所以，我不会为与垃圾工作竞争或竞争垃圾工作而道歉，因为尽管技术在过去已经做到了这一点，但人口却在增加。

GDP has increased, longevity, crime rates have diminished in the western world, the world that has enjoyed the most technology.

在享受科技最多的西方世界，GDP 增加了，寿命延长了，犯罪率下降了。

So, we have no good reason to not believe that that won't continue.

因此，我们没有充分的理由不相信这种情况不会持续下去。

Even while there is difficulty and there has been in the past, no doubt, people who were gainfully employed in dangerous work in mines had to find new work.

尽管存在困难并且过去也曾遇到过困难，但毫无疑问，那些在矿山从事危险工作的有酬工作的人们必须寻找新的工作。

Eoghan McCabe: And so I don't take that for granted, but I think that this is part of the long arc of humanity flourishing and getting healthier and happier.

伊根·麦凯布：所以我并不认为这是理所当然的，但我认为这是人类繁荣、变得更健康、更快乐的长河的一部分。

What are the types of work that will go away?

哪些类型的工作将会消失？

It's all the demeaning, crappy stuff, and that exists in digital businesses.

这些都是数字企业中存在的贬低、蹩脚的东西。

You ask a human to sit at a keyboard answering the same question day in, day out, and you get to a point where you don't even ask them to answer the question manually.

你要求一个人坐在键盘前日复一日地回答相同的问题，甚至不要求他们手动回答问题。

You ask them to click the button that brings up the macro.

您要求他们单击打开宏的按钮。

Like what a horrible use of a human life.

就像对人类生命的可怕利用一样。

I've met thousands of people that have worked at Intercom, a broad range of talents.

我见过数千名曾在 Intercom 工作过的人，他们的才华横溢。

People who they might not describe themselves as particularly high IQ.

他们可能不会将自己描述为智商特别高的人。

Maybe they were suited at that point in their life for this highly repetitive work.

也许他们在人生的那个阶段适合从事这种高度重复的工作。

You talk to them for two or three minutes, you'll see the bright spark of a beautiful human that if they got to do the right thing, they would light up and bring so much happiness and joy to the world.

你和他们交谈两三分钟，你会看到一个美丽的人的明亮火花，如果他们做正确的事，他们就会发光，给世界带来如此多的幸福和欢乐。

Eoghan McCabe: And so that's the mission we're all on.

Eoghan McCabe：这就是我们的使命。

I'm not pollyannaish here, like I said, and I'm suggesting that there won't be friction, but for the most part, we're doing good.

正如我所说，我在这里并不盲目乐观，我建议不会有摩擦，但在大多数情况下，我们做得很好。

And to get specific, they will be CX roles and a lot of basic repetitive roles.

具体来说，他们将是客户体验角色和许多基本的重复角色。

There is a lot of repetitive stuff in sales, and so you'll do more sales with less people.

销售中有很多重复的事情，所以你会用更少的人做更多的销售。

There are SD or roles qualifying basic questions.

有 SD 或角色资格基本问题。

You're not going to need as many people in sales organizations.

销售组织中不需要那么多人。

So, I'm a little misaligned with Marc in that respect.

所以，在这方面我和马克有点不一致。

But what he's getting at is that what sales people bring to the table is human connection and trust, and that is not about to go away anytime soon.

但他的意思是，销售人员带来的是人际关系和信任，而且这种关系不会很快消失。

And thank God for that.

为此感谢上帝。

Lenny Rachitsky: I had Ben Mann, the co-founder of Anthropic on the podcast recently, and he said that he's like, "Even my job is probably going to go at some point." He was like, "Lenny, your job is going to be replaced by AI at some point." That was pretty compelling.

Lenny Rachitsky：我最近在播客上采访了 Anthropic 的联合创始人 Ben Mann，他说他说，“甚至我的工作也可能在某个时候消失。”他说，“莱尼，你的工作在某个时候将会被人工智能取代。”这非常引人注目。

Did not expect him to say that.

没想到他会这么说。

Eoghan McCabe: Yeah, I don't know.

伊根·麦凯布：是的，我不知道。

It will in many ways.

它将在很多方面。

We're going to have agents in AI to aggregate content and create content, but humans, as much as when it comes to productivity, value, efficiency, efficiency is not the number one thing that we value.

我们将在人工智能中拥有代理来聚合内容并创建内容，但人类，就像在生产力、价值、效率方面一样，效率并不是我们最看重的第一件事。

If efficiency was the number one thing we value, I'd always buy the cheapest clothes, furniture, computers, even paper for my printer.

如果效率是我们最看重的事情，我总是会购买最便宜的衣服、家具、电脑，甚至打印机用的纸张。

But I think humans value things like beauty and human stories and human heart and connection.

但我认为人类重视诸如美、人类故事、人类心灵和联系之类的东西。

And not only will they still want those and they'll still want a Lenny that has his own story and his own take and opinions and is a little imperfect, but they'll pay more for it.

他们不仅仍然想要这些，他们仍然想要一个有自己的故事、自己的看法和观点、有点不完美的莱尼，但他们会为此付出更多。

The abundance of AI is going to make automated things worth zero.

人工智能的丰富将使自动化的东西价值为零。

Just like the value of cheap content on YouTube.

就像 YouTube 上廉价内容的价值一样。

Why do people subscribe to some channels and pay more?

为什么人们订阅某些频道并支付更多费用？

Why do people pay to rent movies?

人们为什么要花钱租电影？

Because some things have more quality, more beauty, more craft, more art, more humanity.

因为有些东西更有品质，更有美感，更有工艺，更有艺术，更有人性。

So, I think there'll always be a place for that.

所以，我认为总会有一席之地。

Lenny Rachitsky: Phew.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：唷。

All right.

好的。

I've got a couple more years at least.

我至少还有几年的时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: Before I move on to a different topic.

Lenny Rachitsky：在我转向另一个话题之前。

Just kind of reflecting back on this shift to Fin and the success that you've had, are there any other just lessons that we haven't touched on that you think might be helpful for folks that are trying to go through this journey?

只是回顾一下向 Fin 的转变以及您所取得的成功，是否还有其他我们尚未提及的教训，您认为这些教训可能对尝试经历这一旅程的人们有所帮助？

Eoghan McCabe: I think it's ultimately that you don't have a choice.

Eoghan McCabe：我认为最终你别无选择。

My co-founder Des is writing a book at the moment, and that's core to the idea here.

我的联合创始人德斯目前正在写一本书，这就是这里的核心想法。

You don't have a choice.

你别无选择。

The story of the technology industry or digital technology is really short and it's punctuated by a small number of things, microprocessors, personal computers, the internet, maybe mobile.

技术行业或数字技术的故事非常短，并且被少量的东西打断，微处理器，个人电脑，互联网，也许还有移动设备。

Now there's AI.

现在有了人工智能。

I think AI is bigger than all these things.

我认为人工智能比所有这些东西都更重要。

And all of these things disrupted essentially all categories.

所有这些事情基本上扰乱了所有类别。

So, not only is this likely to disrupt all the categories, it's going to disrupt it in the most aggressive violent ways.

因此，这不仅可能扰乱所有类别，而且将以最激进的暴力方式扰乱它。

And if you're not in it, you're about to get kicked out of all of it.

如果你不参与其中，你就会被踢出这一切。

And so my strongest advice is roll your sleeves up, figure out what's going to disrupt you, have fun with it.

所以我最强烈的建议是卷起袖子，弄清楚什么会扰乱你，并享受其中的乐趣。

You need to bring in actual talent.

你需要引进真正的人才。

We and I will be nothing if we didn't have actual AI scientists and leaders.

如果我们没有真正的人工智能科学家和领导者，我们和我将一事无成。

Eoghan McCabe: It's the only way we can be successful here.

Eoghan McCabe：这是我们在这里取得成功的唯一途径。

We have an incredible person who by the time this is out will have received a promotion to chief AI officer.

我们有一个令人难以置信的人，到本文发布时，他将被晋升为首席人工智能官。

I keep announcing all these things and that's great confidence to you.

我不断地宣布所有这些事情，这对你来说是很大的信心。

Fergal Reid, and he's just one of the very best in AI applications, and we happened to be working with him for many years.

Fergal Reid，他是人工智能应用领域最优秀的人之一，我们碰巧与他合作了很多年。

So, part of it is finding the talent and part of it is bringing in the young talent too.

因此，一部分是寻找人才，一部分是引进年轻人才。

AI is kind of a young man's game, and I'm young, but I'm not as young as a lot of the kids building AI.

人工智能是一种年轻人的游戏，我很年轻，但我并不像许多构建人工智能的孩子那么年轻。

And so learning to empower and enable them and learn from them too is a really big deal.

因此，学习赋予他们权力并帮助他们并向他们学习是一件非常重要的事情。

And unfortunately, part of what you learn from them is the only way you're going to win right now is if you work your ass off, because all these little AI companies run by kids in their twenties are literally working 12 hours a day, literally 365 days a year.

不幸的是，你从他们身上学到的一部分是，你现在要获胜的唯一方法就是拼命工作，因为所有这些由 20 多岁的孩子经营的小型人工智能公司实际上每天工作 12 小时，每年 365 天。

Eoghan McCabe: No joke, all of them.

Eoghan McCabe：不是开玩笑，他们所有人。

And that's not a fun idea for many of us, especially those who've grown up.

对于我们很多人来说，尤其是那些已经长大的人来说，这并不是一个有趣的想法。

Some people in our generation have kids or a lot of them do.

我们这一代人中有些人有孩子，或者很多人都有孩子。

There's comfort and stability in your life.

您的生活舒适且稳定。

You don't want to work like that, but if you want in, that's part of the price and that's how so many of these young new AI are going to win because very few of the previous generation companies are willing to make all of those changes and go all the way in.

你不想那样工作，但如果你想加入，这就是价格的一部分，这就是这么多年轻的新人工智能将如何获胜，因为很少有上一代公司愿意做出所有这些改变并一路走下去。

And so my actual advice, which is not that helpful, is that if founders of previous generation companies are themselves not willing to roll up their sleeves and get into it and work as hard as the kids, hire a kid.

因此，我的实际建议（这并没有多大帮助）是，如果上一代公司的创始人自己不愿意卷起袖子投入其中并像孩子一样努力工作，那就雇用一个孩子。

You can be a chairperson like I was, have a lot of fun.

你可以像我一样当主席，玩得很开心。

You can mentor the kid, hire a kid because you're in the wrong job, buddy.

你可以指导这个孩子，雇佣一个孩子，因为你做错了工作，伙计。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how pragmatic this advice is and what's interesting as you talk about 12 hours a day every day, it's like we're trying to get close to what agents are doing, which is half, that's basically 50% of agents.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个建议的实用性，有趣的是，当你每天谈论 12 个小时时，就好像我们试图接近代理商正在做的事情，这就是一半，基本上是 50% 的代理商。

Eoghan McCabe: But that's not just a poetic cute thing to say, that comes from something very real, which is these younger companies know how to use AI in ways that the older companies don't.

Eoghan McCabe：但这不仅仅是一个诗意可爱的说法，它来自于非常真实的事情，那就是这些年轻的公司知道如何以老公司不知道的方式使用人工智能。

The younger companies are vibe coding and using AI for their creative work and for their job descriptions.

年轻的公司正在进行氛围编码，并使用人工智能来进行创造性工作和工作描述。

I guarantee you go to companies of our generation and even we have had to push people, you go to companies of our generation, most people in most organizations, particularly non-technical organizations, they're not using any AI.

我保证你去我们这一代的公司，甚至我们不得不推动人们，你去我们这一代的公司，大多数组织中的大多数人，特别是非技术组织，他们没有使用任何人工智能。

Maybe they're starting to use ChatGPT to write a job description, but they're not doing it by default.

也许他们开始使用 ChatGPT 来编写职位描述，但默认情况下他们不会这样做。

And so that's more than a joke.

所以这不仅仅是一个笑话。

You're competing with young companies that are in part AI.

你正在与部分人工智能的年轻公司竞争。

Lenny Rachitsky: This reminds me, I did an interview with the Perplexity founders.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起，我对 Perplexity 创始人进行了采访。

It was, I just checked, April 2024, so just over a year ago.

我刚刚查了一下，那是 2024 年 4 月，也就是一年多前。

And they were saying that the way they operated, and this sounded it's so crazy at the time, is anytime they had a question for anyone else on the team, they first asked ChatGPT about it, and then they go ask the person as like, that is insane.

他们说，他们的运作方式（当时听起来很疯狂）是，每当他们向团队中的其他人提出问题时，他们首先向 ChatGPT 询问，然后再去问那个人，这太疯狂了。

And now this is just obvious.

现在这是显而易见的。

That's what we all do now.

这就是我们现在所做的。

Just like, hey, I'm just going to talk voice.

就像，嘿，我只想用语音说话。

Eoghan McCabe: It's a prime example.

Eoghan McCabe：这是一个很好的例子。

They're doing many such things.

他们正在做很多这样的事情。

When I say 365 days a year, they're the company I think of because they're doing exactly that.

当我说一年 365 天时，我想到的就是他们的公司，因为他们正是这样做的。

All these young companies are doing wild, weird and ridiculous things that people you are in my age kind of chuckle at, but it's business as usual for them.

所有这些年轻的公司都在做疯狂的、奇怪的和荒谬的事情，你们同龄的人会嘲笑这些事情，但对他们来说一切如常。

So, there's just a big mind shift, cultural shift, and there's a culture clash of the previous generation versus the new generation.

因此，存在着巨大的思想转变、文化转变，并且上一代与新一代之间存在文化冲突。

And the sooner you kind of wrap your head around that, the sooner you can start to unstake yourself, I think.

我认为，你越早意识到这一点，你就能越早开始摆脱困境。

Lenny Rachitsky: And just to build on that, the sounds crazy to work this hard, it sounds very stressful, not fun.

Lenny Rachitsky：在此基础上，这么努力工作听起来很疯狂，听起来很有压力，而不是有趣。

Why would I do this?

我为什么要这样做？

This sucks.

这太糟糕了。

But at the same time, this is, as you said, such an unusual rare opportunity.

但与此同时，正如你所说，这是一个非常难得的机会。

There's so much opportunity.

有这么多的机会。

There's so much wealth being created.

正在创造如此多的财富。

There's so many businesses being created.

有如此多的企业正在创建。

This is the time, if you were to ever work really hard, this is a good time to do it.

现在是时候了，如果你真的要努力工作，现在就是这样做的好时机。

Eoghan McCabe: I think so.

伊根·麦凯布：我想是的。

I don't actually generally promote working that hard.

实际上我一般不提倡那么努力工作。

I try to not fetishize it.

我尽量不迷恋它。

I actually think a life well-lived includes taking slow walks in nature where you're not thinking about ARR growth or hiring your chief revenue officer, not going to eight meetings a day.

事实上，我认为美好的生活包括在大自然中慢慢散步，而不是考虑 ARR 增长或雇用首席营收官，而不是每天参加八次会议。

Maybe you should go to no meetings a day, certainly not working 12 hours a day.

也许你不应该每天去参加任何会议，当然也不应该每天工作 12 个小时。

I don't actually promote that in general as a thing one should do with their life.

我实际上并不提倡将其作为人们一生中应该做的一件事。

I'm simply saying that if you want to compete and enjoy success in this age, which means you need to be doing AI, that is the price.

我只是说，如果你想在这个时代竞争并享受成功，这意味着你需要做人工智能，这就是代价。

Eoghan McCabe: So, you either decide to pay the price or get out.

Eoghan McCabe：所以，你要么决定付出代价，要么退出。

Don't half-ass it.

别半途而废。

You see all these companies saying, we do AI and they've just sprinkle a little bit of crappy AI and they've got the same cultures.

你会看到所有这些公司都说，我们做人工智能，他们只是撒了一点蹩脚的人工智能，但他们有相同的文化。

It won't work.

这是行不通的。

The one thing I will say, the one little asterisk to my first point is that all great people and great things have been achieved through hard work.

我要说的一件事，我的第一点的一个小星号是，所有伟大的人和伟大的事情都是通过努力工作取得的。

And so I'm speaking out of both sides of my mouth here, to younger people to let them know that every way of living is valid, but people who have achieved things have always worked hard and they find a way to enjoy it too.

所以我在这里向年轻人说两句话，让他们知道每种生活方式都是有效的，但取得成就的人总是努力工作，他们也找到了享受它的方法。

And particularly in 2025 in AI.

尤其是 2025 年的人工智能领域。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to follow this thread.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想关注这个话题。

I was going to ask you this earlier, but I didn't, and I want to see if this takes us somewhere interesting, just watching you speak and talk.

我本来想早些时候问你这个问题，但我没有，我想看看这是否会把我们带到有趣的地方，只是看着你说话和说话。

You're very self-reflective, very centered.

你非常善于自我反省，非常专注。

You have these really good breaths you take when you think about something.

当你思考某件事时，你的呼吸真的很舒服。

I met you a long time ago, randomly at a party when you were just starting Intercom.

很久以前，我在一次聚会上偶然遇见了你，当时你刚刚开始使用 Intercom。

I don't think you were like that.

我不认为你是那样的人。

During this kind of two-year period was there kind a transformation that you went through to kind of become this?

在这两年的时间里，你是经历了什么样的转变才变成这样的吗？

Eoghan McCabe: Absolutely.

伊根·麦凯布：当然。

Yeah.

是的。

There's a couple things.

有几件事。

First, I mean, there's three things that come to mind.

首先，我的意思是，我想到了三件事。

Working in a startup for 14 years has a certain way of kicking you in the head many times a day that either kills you or makes you far stronger.

在一家初创公司工作了 14 年，每天都会有某种特定的方式多次敲打你的头，要么杀死你，要么让你变得更强大。

So, that's one piece.

所以，这是一件。

There's no elegance to that point, but I think we can all intuit that that level of experience teaches you something, you grow up very fast.

这一点并不优雅，但我想我们都可以凭直觉知道，这种程度的经验会教会你一些东西，你成长得很快。

Point two is I did a lot of therapy.

第二点是我做了很多治疗。

I found this amazing guy 12 years ago.

12年前我发现了这个了不起的人。

He started a couple of his own tech companies and talked in public.

他创办了几家自己的科技公司并在公开场合发表演讲。

He only coached and was a therapist to CEOs.

他只担任首席执行官的教练和治疗师。

He's now kind of in a later stage of his career.

他现在正处于职业生涯的后期。

But this amazing guy, his name is Yosi Amram, amazing guy.

但是这个了不起的人，他的名字叫约西·阿姆拉姆，一个了不起的人。

I just landed on my feet.

我刚刚站起来。

I just didn't know who I was dealing with.

我只是不知道我在和谁打交道。

Eoghan McCabe: But one of the greatest minds and teachers of the last, I don't know, many decades, people don't even know him, but he's taught and worked with many CEOs and he just helped me get to know me and take time for myself.

伊根·麦凯布（Eoghan McCabe）：但我不知道，他是过去最伟大的思想家和老师之一，几十年来，人们甚至都不认识他，但他曾教过许多首席执行官并与他们共事，他只是帮助我了解自己并花时间为自己服务。

And people like to hate on therapy right now.

人们现在喜欢讨厌治疗。

I think a lot of therapy sucks and a lot of therapists are not good.

我认为很多治疗很糟糕，很多治疗师也不好。

And they fear that actually therapy will lobotomize them and turn them into thumb sucking, navel-gazing, soft, irrelevant losers that won't have that edge anymore.

他们担心治疗实际上会对他们进行脑白质切除术，把他们变成吮吸拇指、只顾肚脐、软弱、无关紧要的失败者，不再有那种优势。

And the interesting thing about 12 years of weekly therapy and spiritual work is that it takes your edges off, but they're all edges that are super counterproductive.

12 年的每周治疗和精神工作的有趣之处在于，它会消除你的棱角，但它们都是超级适得其反的棱角。

All the edges that made you an asshole, got you triggered, miscommunicated or fought back when you were insecure, they take all the edges away then help you see yourself and love yourself so much more for who you are.

所有让你变成混蛋的边缘，让你在没有安全感时被触发、沟通不畅或反击，它们会消除所有边缘，帮助你看清自己，更加爱自己。

Eoghan McCabe: Be completely unafraid to acknowledge the things you're not good at, but own the things you are.

Eoghan McCabe：不要害怕承认自己不擅长的事情，而要拥有自己擅长的事情。

And in understanding yourself, you understand others better and can communicate in a substantially more connected and authentic way.

通过了解自己，您可以更好地了解他人，并可以以更加紧密和真实的方式进行交流。

Great, great therapy and it has to be great, is a recipe for brilliant leadership in my opinion.

在我看来，伟大、伟大的治疗必须是伟大的，这是卓越领导力的秘诀。

And then the third part is two years away where I ran away, where I was sick, revenue growth wasn't doing so hot.

第三部分是两年后，我逃跑了，我生病了，收入增长不那么热了。

I unsuccessfully tried to defend myself from a bunch of fake bullshit in the newspapers.

我试图保护自己免受报纸上一堆虚假废话的影响，但没有成功。

I mean I was beat up.

我的意思是我被殴打了。

And in a moment like that, your ego, any sense you have of your greatness is eviscerated.

在那样的时刻，你的自我、你对自己的伟大的任何感觉都会被掏空。

And that's painful.

这很痛苦。

It can be so painful that many people don't come back from it, and I credit the 10 years at that point, or nine years of therapy I did at that point, plus the support of this therapist, the coach that I had, to surviving it.

这可能会非常痛苦，以至于很多人都无法从中恢复过来，我将这归功于当时的 10 年，或者说我当时所做的 9 年的治疗，再加上这位治疗师、我的教练的支持，才得以幸存。

Eoghan McCabe: But if you can survive it, what you end up with on the other side is all of those insecure, a lot of the insecurities and all that ego bullshit that made you super ineffective, jealous, or triggered for all sorts of different reasons, it's gone.

伊根·麦凯布（Eoghan McCabe）：但如果你能挺过它，那么你在另一边最终得到的就是所有那些不安全感，很多不安全感和所有那些让你变得超级低效、嫉妒或因各种不同原因而触发的自我废话，它都消失了。

And your image that you are this perfect, brilliant leader that all successful founders form when they are successful had to die.

所有成功的创始人在成功时所形成的完美、才华横溢的领导者形象都必须消失。

And the reason that's so good is that that's so limiting.

之所以这么好，是因为它的局限性很大。

When you have this ego identity of yourself about how fucking amazing you are, then any moment that challenges that is super scary.

当你对自己有这样的自我认同，认为自己有多棒时，那么任何挑战这一点的时刻都是超级可怕的。

Anyone who questions it is offensive.

任何提出质疑的人都是无礼的。

And so I credit wherever I am today and I have decades of learning still to go to those three components.

因此，无论我今天身在何处，我都相信，我还有几十年的时间来学习这三个组成部分。

And I feel super fortunate to have had all of them, even though the last one sucked, I can finally say, wow, it really helped.

我感到非常幸运能够拥有所有这些，尽管最后一个很糟糕，我终于可以说，哇，它真的很有帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you for sharing all that.

Lenny Rachitsky：感谢您分享这一切。

I'm glad I went there.

我很高兴我去了那里。

I want to show you something that I randomly have in my office, my wife just got me that I think you're going to love.

我想给你看一些我办公室里随机拥有的东西，我妻子刚刚给我买的，我想你会喜欢的。

It's a piece of art that I think will resonate with .

这是一件我认为会引起共鸣的艺术品。

Eoghan McCabe: Yeah.

伊根·麦凯布：是的。

What am I looking at here?

我在这里看什么？

So, it's a hand?

那么，这是一只手吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: It's a hand with a snap and then let me see if you can see what it says.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一只手，啪的一声，然后让我看看你是否能看到它写的是什么。

Eoghan McCabe: Right.

伊根·麦凯布：是的。

Look at this.

看看这个。

Good.

好的。

Exactly.

确切地。

Eoghan McCabe: May all our egos peacefully become smaller and leave this mortal coil.

伊根·麦凯布（Eoghan McCabe）：愿我们所有的自负都能平静地变小，离开尘世。

The reality is none of our egos ever die.

现实是我们的自我永远不会消亡。

And even great ...

甚至伟大...

Ram Dass is this great spiritual teacher who died a few years ago and someone asked him on his deathbed something like, "How did you get over your bullshit or your ego?" And he said, "I never did.

拉姆·达斯（Ram Dass）是一位伟大的精神导师，他几年前去世了，有人在他临终前问他这样的问题：“你是如何克服你的废话或你的自我？”他说：“我从来没有这样做过。

Just the edges got smoothed away." And this is a guy who had 70 years of the deepest, wildest spiritual work, he acknowledged, no, still my same self.

只是边缘被磨平了。”这是一个进行了 70 年最深刻、最疯狂的精神工作的人，他承认，不，仍然是我自己。

So, the ego is still there and we actually need to acknowledge it and love it.

所以，自我仍然存在，我们实际上需要承认它并热爱它。

And when you acknowledge it, then it's not a surprise when you're like a little jealous and you're like, huh, I'm jealous.

当你承认这一点时，当你有点嫉妒并且你会说，嗯，我嫉妒时，这并不奇怪。

That's funny.

那很好笑。

Okay.

好的。

And it's all good.

一切都很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Reminds me Daniel Kahneman who wrote all these books about biases that we have and here's all the ways we're flawed.

莱尼·拉奇茨基（Lenny Rachitsky）：让我想起丹尼尔·卡尼曼（Daniel Kahneman），他写了所有这些关于我们所存在的偏见的书，以下是我们的所有缺陷。

If people ask him, "Have you learned to live more rationally?" He's like, "Not at all." Knowing all these things about how we're flawed in the way we think all these biases doesn't actually, I can't use it in life.

如果人们问他：“你学会了更理性地生活吗？”他说：“一点也不。”了解所有这些关于我们如何在我们认为所有这些偏见的方式上有缺陷的事情实际上并没有，我无法在生活中使用它。

Eoghan McCabe: We're human.

伊根·麦凯布：我们是人类。

We should let ourselves be human.

我们应该让自己成为人。

I think it's beautiful.

我觉得很漂亮。

We're logic systems, but we're also heart systems and body systems and soul systems.

我们是逻辑系统，但我们也是心脏系统、身体系统和灵魂系统。

So, all of it is good.

所以，这一切都很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I want to go in a completely different direction.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，我想朝一个完全不同的方向发展。

The last thing I want to talk about, I needed to mention this.

我想说的最后一件事，我需要提到这一点。

I don't know if you've seen this, but I've been doing research on which companies produce the best product leaders.

我不知道你是否看过这个，但我一直在研究哪些公司培养出最好的产品领导者。

And I've been doing this by looking at which alumni of companies go on to become CPOs at the highest rate, get promoted the most at their next job, become the first product manager at a future startup, start their own companies.

我一直在研究哪些公司的校友以最高的比例成为 CPO、在下一份工作中晋升最多、成为未来初创公司的第一位产品经理、创办自己的公司。

Intercom is coming number one across this research next to Palantir and Stripe, Revolut.

Intercom 在这项研究中排名第一，仅次于 Palantir、Stripe、Revolut。

So, the question this begs is, what are you guys doing that produces such great product leaders?

那么，这就引出了一个问题，你们在做什么才能培养出如此出色的产品领导者？

There's the hiring piece and then there's what they do at Intercom piece.

这是招聘部分，然后是他们在对讲机部分所做的事情。

So, what do you think is creating these sort of really big successes from your alumni group?

那么，您认为是什么让您的校友团体取得了如此巨大的成功呢？

Eoghan McCabe: Yeah, I don't have a really succinct answer unfortunately.

Eoghan McCabe：是的，不幸的是我没有一个非常简洁的答案。

I can say in the abstract, our culture is a very producty culture.

我可以抽象地说，我们的文化是一种非常富有生产力的文化。

So, myself and Des, there was four founders and me and Des Traynor drove a lot, like all the strategy.

所以，我和 Des，有四位创始人，我和 Des Traynor 经常推动，就像所有的策略一样。

We're product guys.

我们是产品人。

I was a software designer.

我是一名软件设计师。

I studied computer science, so I'm technical, but never did it professionally.

我学的是计算机科学，所以我是技术性的，但从来没有专业过。

So, the first part is that just product innovation, design just was just core to our culture and people always picked up on that.

所以，第一部分是产品创新、设计只是我们文化的核心，人们总是注意到这一点。

So, I think good people wanted to work here and we were good at finding good people.

所以，我认为优秀的人想在这里工作，而且我们善于寻找优秀的人才。

The other part was that because we had this sprawling strategy, we had all these products that we needed a complex structure for it and that included lots of PMs and PM groups that we gave a lot of autonomy to.

另一部分是，因为我们有这种庞大的战略，所以我们拥有所有这些产品，我们需要一个复杂的结构来实现它，其中包括我们给予大量自主权的大量 PM 和 PM 组。

And so the product of our big messy strategy was that we had PMs that got to act like mini CEOs.

因此，我们混乱的大战略的结果是，我们的产品经理必须像迷你首席执行官一样行事。

Eoghan McCabe: And so I think that they got to learn the broader skill sets beyond designing wireframes and interviewing some customers.

Eoghan McCabe：所以我认为除了设计线框图和采访一些客户之外，他们还必须学习更广泛的技能。

They really own it like a mini CEO to some degree.

在某种程度上，他们确实像迷你首席执行官一样拥有它。

I think there's one other thing which is part to our approach was this deeply first principles thinking methodology almost to a fault, although I don't think it's a fault.

我认为我们方法的另一部分是这种深刻的第一原则思维方法几乎是一个错误，尽管我不认为这是一个错误。

I and we would create frameworks for everything.

我和我们将为一切创建框架。

It's like, okay, we want to do these events.

就像，好吧，我们想做这些活动。

Who are the events for?

这些活动是为谁举办的？

What is the ultimate goal of the event?

活动的最终目标是什么？

What's the mechanism by which events work?

事件发生的机制是什么？

What are other mechanisms that can achieve that same goal?

还有哪些其他机制可以实现相同的目标？

How do we define success for an event like that?

我们如何定义这样的活动的成功？

How does the user or the attendee define value?

用户或参与者如何定义价值？

What other things do those people find valuable?

这些人认为还有什么有价值的东西？

We create these complex systems to try and approach everything, but the net effect was we'd have really joined up considered strategy and it's everywhere.

我们创建这些复杂的系统来尝试解决所有问题，但最终的效果是我们确实结合了经过深思熟虑的策略，而且它无处不在。

Eoghan McCabe: Like Paul Adams, our chief product officer, I didn't even plan to show this.

Eoghan McCabe：就像我们的首席产品官 Paul Adams 一样，我什至不打算展示这一点。

He made this book recently, The AI Age and the Transformation of Customer Service and it's a bunch of frameworks for how to think about AI, et cetera.

他最近出版了这本书《人工智能时代和客户服务的转型》，这是一系列关于如何思考人工智能等的框架。

So, it's part of what we do.

所以，这是我们工作的一部分。

And so we would hire people who are good at that, but we teach that.

因此，我们会雇用擅长这方面的人，但我们会教授这一点。

That's teachable and not everyone does that.

这是可以教的，但并不是每个人都这样做。

And so the conversations that Des and I would have, we still love being on whiteboards.

因此，德斯和我的对话仍然喜欢在白板上进行。

Our very first office, our own office in Dublin, it was a tiny office.

我们的第一个办公室是我们在都柏林的办公室，它是一个很小的办公室。

One wall was four, five computers, the other wall was just all whiteboards.

一堵墙有四五台电脑，另一堵墙全是白板。

We loved that we had a whiteboard wall.

我们喜欢我们有一面白板墙。

In our next office we had a room, square room and all walls were whiteboards.

在我们的下一个办公室，我们有一个房间，方形的房间，所有的墙壁都是白板。

Eoghan McCabe: So, we just love to draw diagrams so you can teach all that stuff.

Eoghan McCabe：所以，我们只是喜欢画图表，这样你就可以教授所有这些东西。

So, yeah, it's just all that good energy product, product energy, first principles, the people we chose.

所以，是的，这只是所有好的能源产品、产品能源、第一原则、我们选择的人。

And on the founders side, I was talking to Des about this morning, why have so many Intercom people gone on to be founders?

在创始人方面，今天早上我和 Des 谈论了为什么有这么多 Intercom 人后来成为创始人？

I think it's because we hired founder types and my pitch to people was always come to Intercom, figure out how great companies are built and build it with us and then go on to start your own.

我认为这是因为我们聘请了创始人类型，而我向人们推销的总是来到 Intercom，弄清楚如何建立伟大的公司并与我们一起建立它，然后继续创办自己的公司。

I would say that often at all hands.

我会经常这样说。

But the irony is that the people we hired back then, the founder types were probably not great employees.

但讽刺的是，我们当时雇用的创始人类型的人可能不是优秀的员工。

They were better founders.

他们是更好的创始人。

I'm not a good employee.

我不是一个好员工。

And so it'll be interesting to see if this current cohort, we'll get many founders out of this current cohort, but will they convert as well as they did before?

因此，看看当前的群体是否会从当前的群体中获得许多创始人，这将是很有趣的，但他们会像以前一样转变吗？

Eoghan McCabe: Because we're now hiring people who want to be part of something bigger.

Eoghan McCabe：因为我们现在正在招聘那些想要参与更大事业的人。

They're more mature and grown up, more stable and consistent.

他们更加成熟和成熟，更加稳定和一致。

They're part of, they have a certain expertise and a certain lane they want to work in.

他们是其中的一部分，他们拥有一定的专业知识和他们想从事的特定领域。

And maybe they're not the crazy types that went on to start companies, but it's wild.

也许他们不是那种疯狂创办公司的人，但这很疯狂。

I did see some of that research by you, particularly the one where you show the companies ranked by the number of founders that they have.

我确实看到了您的一些研究，特别是您展示的公司按其创始人数量排名的研究。

And I'm like, what is happening?

我想，发生了什么事？

I was as surprised that we were that high as you were because there are many other great companies on that list.

我很惊讶我们的排名和你们一样高，因为该名单上还有许多其他伟大的公司。

So, surprised and proud.

所以，惊讶又自豪。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love when people say, I don't really have a clear answer.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢人们说，我真的没有明确的答案。

And then you have exactly a clear answer and it resonates a lot with other companies on this list that I've had on of what the themes are, and I'll just reflect back a few of them.

然后你就有了一个明确的答案，它与我所了解的这个列表中的其他公司的主题产生了很大的共鸣，我只会回顾其中的一些。

One is complexity.

一是复杂性。

That comes up a lot.

这种情况经常出现。

And interestingly, most of the other companies in the list, I'll read them real quick.

有趣的是，对于列表中的大多数其他公司，我会快速阅读它们。

Intercom, Palantir, Revolut, N26, Dropbox, Chime, Stripe, and then Coinbase and Notion is down there.

Intercom、Palantir、Revolut、N26、Dropbox、Chime、Stripe，还有 Coinbase 和 Notion。

So many are FinTech.

很多都是金融科技。

Almost all are FinTech.

几乎所有都是金融科技。

And the complexity there is really high.

而且那里的复杂性确实很高。

So, there's a really interesting trend there.

所以，那里有一个非常有趣的趋势。

Just complexity.

只是复杂性。

Ownership is another one that comes up a lot.

所有权是另一个经常出现的问题。

Many CEOs, GMs kind of roles, first principles thinking and just going to the bare metal comes up a lot in these conversations.

许多首席执行官、总经理的角色、首要原则思维以及直接使用裸机在这些对话中经常出现。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then hiring senior people, hiring founder types.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后雇佣高级人才，雇佣创始人类型。

Eoghan McCabe: Yes.

伊根·麦凯布：是的。

Like Stripe did a lot of that.

就像 Stripe 做了很多这样的事情。

I think Stripe did a lot of first principle stuff and founder types.

我认为 Stripe 做了很多第一原则的事情和创始人类型。

Lenny Rachitsky: The other thing, we didn't even talk about this, but you guys invented RICE.

Lenny Rachitsky：另一件事，我们甚至没有谈论这个，但你们发明了 RICE。

You guys popularize jobs to be done.

你们普及了待完成的工作。

Like speaking of frameworks, you guys are a wealth of frameworks that we all use.

就像说到框架一样，你们是我们都使用的丰富的框架。

Eoghan McCabe: Drowning and frameworks, yeah.

Eoghan McCabe：溺水和框架，是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Drowning slash changing the way everyone builds product in a really positive way.

Lenny Rachitsky：溺水斜线改变了每个人以非常积极的方式构建产品的方式。

Okay, is there anything else that you wanted to touch on or leave listeners with before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

好的，在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想谈或留给听众的吗？

Eoghan McCabe: When someone like me comes on a podcast like this, they always have an ulterior motive and that's healthy and good.

Eoghan McCabe：当像我这样的人出现在这样的播客上时，他们总是别有用心，这是健康和好的。

It's part of the transaction.

这是交易的一部分。

Some of it is to enjoy feeling like an expert.

其中一些是享受像专家一样的感觉。

But my ulterior motive today is to make sure that people understand that Intercom is a fundamentally different type of late stage company.

但我今天的别有用心是为了确保人们了解 Intercom 是一家完全不同类型的后期公司。

We are a large old startup.

我们是一家大型老牌初创公司。

Every single way in which we work is as a startup and are competing with and crushing the actual startup competition in our agent categories.

我们工作的每一种方式都是作为一家初创公司，在我们的代理类别中与实际的初创公司竞争并压垮它们。

And the reason that that's important for people to know is just like I said earlier, that the handicap that good but late stage companies have is that their late stage and people don't mentally put them in the same box.

正如我之前所说，这对人们来说很重要，因为优秀但处于后期阶段的公司所面临的障碍是，它们处于后期阶段，人们在心理上不会将它们放在同一个盒子里。

Eoghan McCabe: They just don't imagine these older companies.

Eoghan McCabe：他们只是无法想象这些老公司。

If I told you that IBM had made the most wildly innovative coding assistant, you'd find it hard to believe, most people would.

如果我告诉您 IBM 制造了最具创新性的编码助手，您会发现难以置信，大多数人都会相信。

It's maybe so interesting such that it would stick in your mind, you need to go look at it.

也许它太有趣了，以至于它会留在你的脑海里，你需要去看它。

But by default people aren't going to look at IBM.

但默认情况下，人们不会关注 IBM。

And so I want people to take a new look at Intercom because it's a brand new company and our mission is to help every single type of business deliver impeccable, incredible, beautiful personal service to every single one of their users and people, many thousands of people are using Fin for that today.

因此，我希望人们重新审视 Intercom，因为它是一家全新的公司，我们的使命是帮助每一种类型的企业为其每一位用户和人员提供无可挑剔、令人难以置信、精美的个人服务，今天有成千上万的人正在使用 Fin。

So, go check out Fin please, fin.ai.

所以，请去看看 Fin，fin.ai。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I don't know if you mentioned this at the beginning, but let's mention that you predict that you'll be the fastest growing company across if you were to look at all public software companies next year.

Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道您在开始时是否提到过这一点，但让我们提一下，您预测，如果您明年观察所有公共软件公司，您将成为增长最快的公司。

Eoghan McCabe: So, two years ago we were in the low single digits growth rate.

Eoghan McCabe：所以，两年前我们的增长率处于较低的个位数。

We doubled our growth rate and last year we were in the low double digits.

我们的增长率翻了一番，去年我们的增长率为低两位数。

This year we're in the 15th percentile of all public software companies.

今年，我们在所有公共软件公司中排名第 15 位。

So, you take the 120 something public software companies, we're in the 15th percentile.

因此，以 120 多家上市软件公司为例，我们处于第 15 个百分点。

So, we're getting up there fast and if we sustain this trajectory, and it's obviously dangerous to put these types of things out publicly, but I'll tell you, I look at the charts and it's hard not to imagine where this goes.

所以，我们正在快速上升，如果我们维持这种轨迹，公开发布这些类型的事情显然是危险的，但我会告诉你，我看着图表，很难不想象它会走向何方。

I think we're going to find ourselves being the fastest growing out of all, relative to all public software companies.

我认为，相对于所有公共软件公司，我们将发现自己是增长最快的。

So, let's see.

那么，让我们看看。

But that's the level of shock, surprise and transformation that has actually happened here all because of Fin.

但这就是这里实际发生的震惊、惊讶和转变，而这一切都是因为芬。

So, check in with me in a year and maybe I'll be embarrassed or maybe I'll be feeling like a genius.

所以，一年后再来看看我，也许我会感到尴尬，或者也许我会感觉自己像个天才。

Lenny Rachitsky: Or underselling it.

Lenny Rachitsky：或者低估它。

This just reflects back on exactly how I started our conversation.

这恰好反映了我是如何开始我们的谈话的。

You've done something extraordinary at Intercom.

你在 Intercom 做了一些非凡的事情。

I'm really happy that we're here and we're sharing this story.

我真的很高兴我们在这里分享这个故事。

Lenny Rachitsky: With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny Rachitsky：这样，我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最常向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Eoghan McCabe: So, I found I lost the habit of reading as I started to get more and more stressed with my startup.

Eoghan McCabe：所以，当我开始承受越来越大的创业压力时，我发现我失去了阅读的习惯。

And so I would listen to audiobooks here and there, but the most recent book I read is a book called Nuclear War: A Scenario, and it's a very much a nonfiction and scared the shit out of me.

所以我会到处听有声读物，但我最近读的书是一本叫做《核战争：一个场景》的书，它是一本非小说类小说，把我吓坏了。

So, if you like nightmares, it'll be beautiful bedtime reading.

所以，如果你喜欢噩梦，这将是一本很棒的睡前读物。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's a recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近真正喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Eoghan McCabe: I love movies.

伊根·麦凯布：我喜欢电影。

I want TV to be better, but I very rarely find TV to be great.

我希望电视变得更好，但我很少发现电视很棒。

The first and last TV show I loved was True Detective one that was just incredible.

我喜欢的第一部也是最后一部电视节目是《真探》，它非常棒。

But the last movie I watched was 28 Years Later, and that's by Danny Boyle.

但我看的最后一部电影是丹尼·博伊尔的《28 年之后》。

I was born in the eighties, grew up as a kid in the nineties, and so grew up with Trainspotting.

我出生在八十年代，在九十年代长大，所以是伴随着猜火车长大的。

It was 28 Days Later.

那是28天后。

Then he made a movie called Sunshine.

然后他拍了一部叫《阳光》的电影。

So, 28 Years Later is a type of movie that's just not made anymore.

所以，《28 年后》是一种不再制作的电影。

It's the most nineties movie made since the nineties.

这是自九十年代以来制作最多的九十年代电影。

It's like very rock and roll and also deeply touching.

非常摇滚，也很感人。

So, I was really surprised by that.

所以，我对此感到非常惊讶。

I bet I would love to know that younger generations that are watching this, what they may think, they may hate it, but I love 28 Years Later.

我打赌我很想知道正在观看这个节目的年轻一代，他们会怎么想，他们可能会讨厌它，但我喜欢《28年后》。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, this is the same person that made 28 Days Later, then 29 years later .

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，这就是《惊变 28 天》和《29 年后》的同一个人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

Okay.

好的。

Very cool.

非常酷。

I didn't know about that.

我对此一无所知。

Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Could be a gadget, could be an app, could be clothes.

可以是一个小工具，可以是一个应用程序，可以是衣服。

Eoghan McCabe: I very rarely like products, I'm such a perfectionist that it has to be really simple with very little moving parts, like a bowl, to actually be like, good.

Eoghan McCabe：我很少喜欢产品，我是一个完美主义者，它必须非常简单，只有很少的活动部件，比如一个碗，才能真正做到好。

I've started to get more into coffee.

我开始更加迷恋咖啡。

I've been buying products by Fellow.

我一直在买Fellow的产品。

They're remarkably good for consumer products, different, it's on a different level.

它们对于消费品来说非常有好处，不同，处于不同的水平。

So, there's some sort of level of taste and craft happening there that I don't see in basically any other consumer hardware type products.

因此，那里发生了某种程度的品味和工艺，这是我基本上在任何其他消费类硬件类型产品中都看不到的。

And of all things, I'd bought a Porsche 911 recently and that is a beautiful product.

最重要的是，我最近买了一辆保时捷 911，这是一款漂亮的产品。

The interiors are exquisite and there's still a bunch of shit that is going to annoy you.

内饰很精致，但仍然有一堆会让你恼火的东西。

And so it's far from perfect.

所以它远非完美。

So, yeah, perfectionism is sometimes a gift if you're in the business of creating products, but also quite the curse.

所以，是的，如果你从事产品创造业务，完美主义有时是一种礼物，但同时也是一种诅咒。

You're never happy, including with the Porsche 911.

你永远不会快乐，包括保时捷 911。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that's the third time someone recommended a car.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这是第三次有人推荐汽车。

Someone recommended, I think Boz at Facebook recommended a fancy Mercedes, and then someone once suggested a Rivian, so now we got Porsche on the list.

有人推荐，我想 Facebook 的 Boz 推荐了一辆漂亮的奔驰，然后有人推荐了一辆 Rivian，所以现在我们把保时捷列入了名单。

I always thought maybe one day I'll give someone all the prizes, all the products people have ever mentioned in this.

我一直想也许有一天我会把所有的奖品、人们在本文中提到的所有产品都送给某人。

And those are getting, Porsche might be a little high.

这些都在增加，保时捷可能有点高了。

Okay, two more questions.

好吧，还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself repeating, coming back to in work or life sharing with friends?

您是否有最喜欢的人生座右铭，并在工作或与朋友分享生活时不断重复？

Eoghan McCabe: It's trite.

Eoghan McCabe：这很陈词滥调。

It's not sophisticated and it's more of a concept than a phrase, but it's something around the idea that life is short.

它并不复杂，它更像是一个概念而不是一个短语，但它围绕着生命短暂的想法。

I'm just so aware that time ticks by and we all live on autopilot.

我很清楚时间在流逝，我们都生活在自动驾驶仪中。

So much of what we do is inspired by either our insecurities or things that other people we look up to or envy do.

我们所做的很多事情都是受到我们的不安全感或我们尊敬或羡慕的其他人所做的事情的启发。

Very rarely making contact with what we really want and following our hearts and our heads.

很少接触到我们真正想要的东西并跟随我们的内心和头脑。

And we just kind of get stuck in these lanes and just live out our days.

我们就被困在这些小巷里，过着我们的日子。

And certainly when you get 41 now, you get to 41 and thankfully still very young, anyone in their forties, congrats, should feel good about that.

当然，当你现在41岁的时候，你就已经41岁了，谢天谢地，你还很年轻，任何四十多岁的人，恭喜，应该对此感觉良好。

Eoghan McCabe: But I know if you're in your twenties or thirties, 40 feels old.

Eoghan McCabe：但我知道，如果你二十多岁或三十多岁，40 岁就会感觉很老。

But when you're in your forties, my experience is that the weeks and the months and then the years go by.

但当你四十多岁的时候，我的经验是，几周、几个月、然后几年就过去了。

It's not a big deal.

这没什么大不了的。

I'm back at Intercom two and a half years now to any of these kids in AI in their twenties.

我回到Intercom已经两年半了，对这些二十多岁的人工智能孩子来说。

If they don't get something done or achieved by next month, they'll be so disappointed themselves and so impatient.

如果他们在下个月之前没有完成某件事或取得什么成就，他们自己就会非常失望并且非常不耐烦。

And in some ways, at least when it comes to productivity, they're better at getting more out of the time.

在某些方面，至少在生产力方面，他们更善于从时间中获得更多收益。

But I'm now trying to get more life out of the time too.

但我现在也在努力让这段时间变得更有活力。

So, just, if there is a motto, it's like life is short or memento mori, we're all on the way out.

所以，如果有一句座右铭的话，那就是人生苦短，或者是死亡的象征，我们都在走出去。

So, make the use of what you've got.

所以，充分利用你所拥有的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Fun fact, I built an app once called Savorable that helped you savor the moment, it was called Savorable and it sent you a text every few hours, I don't know, maybe once a day with a little reminder of way to savor the moment.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，我曾经开发过一个名为 Savorable 的应用程序，它可以帮助你品味这一刻，它每隔几个小时向你发送一条短信，我不知道，也许每天一次，并提醒你如何品味这一刻。

And one of the texts was just like, remember, you will die.

其中一篇文字就像，记住，你会死。

Eoghan McCabe: Yeah.

伊根·麦凯布：是的。

And the problem is that even that idea, we forget it instantly.

问题是，即使是这个想法，我们也会立即忘记。

And if you start getting text every day, you'll ignore the text.

如果您开始每天收到短信，您就会忽略该短信。

Try to fault.

尝试去挑剔。

We just don't want to acknowledge that reality on a day-to-day basis.

我们只是不想在日常生活中承认这一现实。

Maybe that's important.

也许这很重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, Final question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，最后一个问题。

Speaking of apps, I was doing research on you in preparation for this and I didn't realize you built Quitter back in the day.

说到应用程序，我正在对您进行研究，为此做准备，但我没有意识到您当年就开发了 Quitter。

I love Quitter.

我爱放弃者。

I found it so fun.

我觉得很有趣。

It basically told you anytime someone unfollowed you on Twitter.

基本上，只要有人在 Twitter 上取消关注你，它就会告诉你。

So, the question just what happened to that app?

那么，问题是该应用程序发生了什么？

Eoghan McCabe: I think we eventually sold it for 14K.

Eoghan McCabe：我想我们最终以 14K 的价格出售了它。

Eoghan McCabe: On one of these, I think there's a website called Flipper where you could sell websites.

Eoghan McCabe：其中之一，我认为有一个名为 Flipper 的网站，您可以在其中出售网站。

It really blew up.

真的炸了。

It was like a little experiment, kind of a social experiment.

这就像一个小实验，一种社会实验。

It was the first time that I had this feeling that there's no reason someone wouldn't want to use this.

这是我第一次有这样的感觉：没有理由有人不想使用它。

Obviously people are going to want to use this.

显然人们会想要使用它。

And it was really instructive for me because it taught me that that feeling is possible.

这对我来说确实很有启发，因为它告诉我这种感觉是可能的。

You meet so many founders, young founders particularly, and they don't have a sense within themselves about the value of the stuff they're building.

你会遇到很多创始人，尤其是年轻的创始人，他们对自己正在构建的东西的价值没有任何感觉。

Will this be good?

这会好吗？

Let's get customer feedback.

让我们获取客户反馈。

And it is possible to build things that you deeply know makes sense.

并且有可能构建出您深知有意义的东西。

And that's why my formula for building things was to always build things for myself.

这就是为什么我构建事物的公式是始终为自己构建事物。

And that was what Quitter was like.

这就是戒烟者的样子。

Followers go up, followers go down.

追随者上升，追随者下降。

At that point in time, people had 100 followers or 200 followers, and you'd want to know who's not my friend anymore.

那时，人们有 100 个关注者或 200 个关注者，你想知道谁不再是我的朋友了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, I love that that was your bar that led you to the success later if it's as good as Quitter in terms of product market fit.

Lenny Rachitsky：噢，伙计，我喜欢你的酒吧，如果它在产品市场契合度方面与《戒烟者》一样好的话，它会引导你后来取得成功。

Eoghan McCabe: I mean, it had the best fit ever.

Eoghan McCabe：我的意思是，它是有史以来最合身的。

About everyone on Twitter tried to sign up for it and it broke.

Twitter 上的每个人都试图注册它，但它失败了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, I loved it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：嗯，我喜欢它。

Eoghan, thank you so much for doing this.

Eoghan，非常感谢你所做的事情。

I love just how real and open you are about everything and just how much insight you have to share.

我喜欢你对一切事物的真实和开放，以及你必须分享的见解。

I also just love the vibe.

我也很喜欢这种氛围。

I feel like I just am more centered just watching you-

我觉得我只是看着你就更集中了-

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

speak.

说话。

Two Final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks check out Fin, follow you if they want to follow up on anything?

如果人们想跟进任何事情，可以在哪里查看 Fin，关注你？

And then how can listeners be useful to you?

那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Eoghan McCabe: Check out Fin, fin.ai.

Eoghan McCabe：看看 Fin，fin.ai。

If they want to follow me.

如果他们想跟着我的话。

I'm E-O-G-H-A-N on Twitter, so it's Irish spelling of Owen.

我在 Twitter 上的名字是 E-O-G-H-A-N，所以这是 Owen 的爱尔兰语拼写。

But if they want to be helpful to me, I'd love them to try Fin.

但如果他们想对我有帮助，我希望他们尝试 Fin。

I'd love them to have their friends that run any kind of customer operations, try it too.

我希望他们有负责任何类型客户业务的朋友，也尝试一下。

This AI thing is noisy.

这个人工智能的东西很吵。

There's so much hype, but it's also really real.

有太多的炒作，但它也是真实的。

And the weird thing about Fin, even relative to the coding apps, the coding apps are blowing up, and yet there's a lot of people experimenting and kicking tires.

Fin 的奇怪之处在于，即使相对于编码应用程序而言，编码应用程序正在蓬勃发展，但仍有很多人在尝试和尝试。

You can't kick tires with Fin.

你不能用 Fin 踢轮胎。

We only deliver value when you expose it to your customers and it closes tickets and makes them happy.

只有当您向客户展示并关闭门票并让他们满意时，我们才能提供价值。

And so AI is really, really happening.

所以人工智能真的、真的正在发生。

And so if you know anyone out there that has customers, they should be using Fin.

因此，如果您认识任何有客户的人，他们应该使用 Fin。

It's the smartest, cheapest, easiest way to dramatically enhance their business.

这是大幅提升业务的最明智、最便宜、最简单的方法。

So, if they do that, they'll be helping me sincerely.

所以，如果他们这样做，他们就会真诚地帮助我。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm sold.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我被卖了。

Eoghan, thank you so much for being here.

伊根，非常感谢你来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。