How to build a powerful marketing machine | Emily Kramer (Asana, Carta, MKT1)

Emily Kramer: Forget the product marketing content partner, demand and growth, forget all of it, and just think of marketing as you need a fuel and you need an engine.

Emily Kramer：忘记产品营销内容合作伙伴、需求和增长，忘记所有这些，只需将营销视为您需要燃料和引擎。

And goal is like all the things that you're creating.

目标就像你正在创造的所有事物一样。

I mean this should be obvious, but it's the content, it's the word, it's the design in some regard.

我的意思是这应该是显而易见的，但它是内容，是文字，在某些方面是设计。

All the things that you're making, all the things that are going to add value.

您正在制作的所有东西，所有将增加价值的东西。

An engine is how you get it out to the right people.

引擎是您将其发布给合适的人的方式。

And all of the tracking of that and sort of the ops work I put under engine, everyone needs an engine.

所有的跟踪以及我放在引擎下的操作工作，每个人都需要一个引擎。

Emily Kramer: And the question is, where do you have the biggest challenge right now?

Emily Kramer：问题是，你现在面临的最大挑战在哪里？

Or where do you think if you did more, you would grow faster?

或者你认为如果你做得更多，你会在哪些方面成长得更快？

Is it on fuel side or is on the engine side?

是在燃油侧还是在发动机侧？

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客。

I'm Lenny, and my goal here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products.

我是莱尼，我的目标是帮助您更好地构建和种植产品。

I interview world class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experience building and scaling today's most successful products.

我采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和扩展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。

Today my guest is Emily Kramer.

今天我的客人是艾米丽·克莱默。

Emily led and built the marketing teams at Asana, Carta, Ticketfly and Astro, which was a startup acquired by Slack.

Emily 领导并建立了 Asana、Carta、Ticketfly 和 Astro（一家被 Slack 收购的初创公司）的营销团队。

She's one of the first marketers to be hired at all four companies, and has been instrumental in helping these companies build their marketing function, grow their products, and build their brands.

她是这四家公司首批受聘的营销人员之一，在帮助这些公司建立营销职能、发展产品和打造品牌方面发挥了重要作用。

Lenny: She also writes my favorite newsletter on marketing, MKT1.

Lenny：她还写了我最喜欢的营销时事通讯 MKT1。

And the best compliment that I can give her is that she's a marketer that thinks like a product manager.

我能给她的最好的赞美是，她是一位像产品经理一样思考的营销人员。

In our chat, Emily shares a ton of concrete advice on what to look for in your first marketing hire, what the different archetypes of marketers are, and who you should look for based on your business model.

在我们的聊天中，艾米丽分享了大量具体建议，包括在你的第一次营销招聘中要寻找什么、营销人员的不同原型是什么，以及根据你的商业模式你应该寻找谁。

How to work with marketing effectively as a product team, and also what red flags to look for that tell you that your marketing team is not doing a great job.

作为产品团队如何有效地与营销合作，以及要寻找哪些危险信号来告诉您营销团队做得不好。

Lenny: Emily is super specific and incredibly concrete with her advice, including sharing a ton of templates that you can immediately use that we link to in the share rooms.

莱尼：艾米丽的建议非常具体且非常具体，包括分享大量模板，您可以立即使用我们在共享房间中链接到的模板。

I always learn a ton talking to Emily and I can't wait for you to hear this episode.

我总是能在与艾米丽的交谈中学到很多东西，我迫不及待地想让你听到这一集。

And so with that, I bring you Emily Kramer.

因此，我为您带来了艾米丽·克莱默 (Emily Kramer)。

I'm excited to chat with my friend John Cutler, from Podcast Sponsor Amplitude.

我很高兴能与来自播客赞助商 Amplitude 的朋友 John Cutler 聊天。

Hey John.

嘿约翰。

John Cutler: Hey Lenny.

约翰·卡特勒：嘿莱尼。

Excited to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: John, give us a behind the scenes at Amplitude.

莱尼：约翰，请给我们介绍一下 Amplitude 的幕后花絮。

When most people think of Amplitude they think of product analytics, but now you're getting into experimentation and even just launch a CDP.

当大多数人想到 Amplitude 时，他们会想到产品分析，但现在您正在进入实验，甚至只是启动 CDP。

What's the thought process there?

那里的思维过程是怎样的？

John Cutler: Well, we've always thought of Amplitude as being about supporting the full product loop.

John Cutler：嗯，我们一直认为 Amplitude 是为了支持整个产品循环。

Think collect data, inform that, ship experiments and learn.

思考收集数据、提供信息、进行实验并学习。

That's the heart of growth to us.

这就是我们成长的核心。

So the big aha was seeing how many customers were using Amplitude to analyze experiments, use segments for outreach and send data to other destinations.

因此，最大的惊喜是看到有多少客户使用 Amplitude 来分析实验、使用分段进行推广以及将数据发送到其他目的地。

Experiment in CDP came out of listening to and observing our customers.

CDP 的实验源于倾听和观察客户的意见。

Lenny: And supporting growth and learning has always been amplitude's core focus, right?

Lenny：支持成长和学习一直是 Amplitude 的核心焦点，对吗？

John Cutler: Yeah.

约翰·卡特勒：是的。

So Amplitude tries to meet customers where they are.

因此，Amplitude 试图满足客户的需求。

We just launched starter templates and have a great scholarship program for startups.

我们刚刚推出了入门模板，并为初创公司提供了很棒的奖学金计划。

There's never been a more important time for growth.

对于成长来说，从未有过如此重要的时刻。

Lenny: Absolutely agree.

莱尼：绝对同意。

Thanks for joining us, John, and head to amplitude.com to get started.

约翰，感谢您加入我们，请前往振幅.com 开始。

Are you hiring or on the flip side, are you looking for a new opportunity?

您是在招聘还是在寻找新的机会？

Well, either way check out lenny'sjob.com/talent.

好吧，无论哪种方式，请查看 lenny'sjob.com/talent。

If you're a hiring manager, you can sign up and get access to hundreds of hand curated people who are open to new opportunities.

如果您是招聘经理，您可以注册并接触数百名对新机会持开放态度的精心挑选的人员。

Thousands of people apply to join this collective and I personally review and accept just about 10% of them.

成千上万的人申请加入这个集体，而我个人审核并接受的人中只有大约 10%。

You won't find a better place to hire product managers and growth leaders.

您找不到比这更好的地方来雇用产品经理和增长领导者了。

Join almost 100 other companies who are actively hiring through this collective.

加入近 100 家其他通过这个集体积极招聘的公司的行列。

Lenny: And if you're looking around for a newer opportunity, actively or passively, join the collective.

莱尼：如果你正在寻找新的机会，无论是主动还是被动，都可以加入这个集体。

It's free, you can be anonymous and you can even hide yourself from specific companies.

它是免费的，您可以匿名，甚至可以对特定公司隐藏自己。

You can also leave anytime and you'll only hear from companies that you want to hear from.

您也可以随时离开，并且您只会收到您想要的公司的消息。

Check out lenny'sjobs.com/talent.

请访问 lenny'sjobs.com/talent。

Emily, welcome to this podcast.

艾米丽，欢迎来到这个播客。

I'm really excited to be chatting with you.

我真的很高兴能和你聊天。

Emily Kramer: Yeah.

艾米丽·克莱默：是的。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Looking forward to chatting with you in depth here.

期待在这里与您深入交谈。

Lenny: So if I remember correctly, we first met in the first round Angel Track program maybe two years ago, and then since then we've invested in a bunch of different companies together.

Lenny：如果我没记错的话，我们第一次见面是在两年前的第一轮 Angel Track 计划中，从那时起我们一起投资了很多不同的公司。

I'm also just a big fan of your newsletter that we're going to chat about.

我也非常喜欢我们将要讨论的你们的时事通讯。

So just to settle little context for folks, can you just give us a quick high level overview of your illustrious career and then also just plug your newsletter so folks can find it.

因此，为了向人们介绍一些背景信息，您能否向我们快速介绍一下您杰出的职业生涯，然后插入您的时事通讯，以便人们可以找到它。

Emily Kramer: For sure.

艾米丽·克莱默：当然。

And theme of my career has been building out marketing teams at B2B startups.

我职业生涯的主题是在 B2B 初创公司建立营销团队。

So early in my career I was in advertising, went to business school.

在我职业生涯的早期，我从事广告工作，上过商学院。

But after that I started doing the startup thing and I was at Ticketfly, I was like the second marketer.

但在那之后我开始做初创公司的事情，我在 Ticketfly，我就像第二个营销人员。

And then I went to Asana where I was the first marketer when they were about 30, 35 people and built up that team and led the team for just under four years.

然后我去了 Asana，在那里我是第一位营销人员，当时他们大约有 30、35 人，我建立了这个团队并领导了这个团队不到四年的时间。

And then I went to a small seed funded company, help them raise rates and eventually went to Carta, which was about 300 people when I joined-ish give or take, but didn't have a marketing function at the time.

然后我去了一家小型种子投资公司，帮助他们提高利率，最终去了 Carta，当我加入时，该公司大约有 300 人，但当时没有营销职能。

Emily Kramer: So built that function up from scratch.

Emily Kramer：所以从头开始构建该功能。

Much like Asana but at a very different stage in the company's life cycle.

很像 Asana，但处于公司生命周期的不同阶段。

And then since then I've been advising and investing full time and now have a small fund where we invest in early stage B2B and help them build out marketing.

从那时起，我一直全职提供咨询和投资，现在我们拥有一个小基金，投资于早期 B2B 并帮助他们建立营销。

So building marketing, that's what I do.

所以建立营销，这就是我所做的。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

Okay, so plug your fund and your newsletter real quick just so we can cover that.

好的，所以请尽快插入您的资金和时事通讯，以便我们可以报道这一点。

Emily Kramer: Oh yeah, sorry about that.

艾米丽·克莱默：哦，是的，对此感到抱歉。

My newsletter is the letters mkt1.substack.com and my fund is Market 1 Capital.

我的时事通讯的字母是 mkt1.substack.com，我的基金是 Market 1 Capital。

You can pretty much find most of these things on mkt1.co. Links to all the different various things that I'm doing so I can remember, because there's lots of iron in the fire.

您几乎可以在 mkt1.co 上找到其中大部分内容。链接到我正在做的所有不同的事情，这样我就能记住，因为火中有很多铁。

So got to keep the website up to date so I don't lose track of all the things that are going on.

因此，我必须保持网站最新，这样我才不会忘记所有正在发生的事情。

I also have a job board and a bunch of other things.

我还有一个工作委员会和很多其他东西。

You have more things going on but I have a number of set of things.

你还有更多的事情要做，但我有很多事情。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And we'll link to that in the show notes and everything.

我们将在演出笔记和所有内容中链接到该内容。

I don't think I've told you this but many founders have mentioned you as one of their most helpful angel investors that they've had on their cap table.

我想我没有告诉过你这一点，但许多创始人都提到你是他们资本表上最有帮助的天使投资者之一。

It just comes up often when we co-invest.

当我们共同投资时，它经常出现。

And the things that you help them most with as far as I understand is marketing advice, go to market advice, hiring marketing people.

据我所知，你对他们帮助最大的事情是营销建议、市场建议、雇用营销人员。

And so, I'd love to spend most of our time chatting through, basically the advice that you give founders around marketing.

因此，我愿意花大部分时间来讨论，基本上是您为创始人提供的有关营销的建议。

Lenny: And the first area I wanted to dig into is hiring marketing people.

莱尼：我想深入研究的第一个领域是招聘营销人员。

To non-marketing people it's such a mystery of just like, what is a marketing person?

对于非营销人员来说，这是一个谜，就像什么是营销人员？

What do I expect from them?

我对他们有什么期望？

How do I hire them?

我如何雇用他们？

How do I find them?

我如何找到他们？

How do I interview them?

我如何采访他们？

What should I avoid?

我应该避免什么？

So my first question is just like what mistakes have you seen founders and teams make when they're thinking about marketing and hiring marketing people?

所以我的第一个问题是，你看到创始人和团队在考虑营销和雇用营销人员时犯了哪些错误？

Emily Kramer: And just to add to that, it's even hard for marketers to hire other marketers.

Emily Kramer：除此之外，营销人员甚至很难雇用其他营销人员。

It's even confusing for marketers to know where they fit in.

营销人员甚至不知道自己适合什么位置。

And if they haven't been hired yet exactly what world they should be looking at or exactly who else they should be hired on the team.

如果他们还没有被聘用，那么他们应该关注什么世界，或者团队中还应该聘用谁。

While it's very confusing for founders and people who haven't kind of been in a larger marketing team to understand all the different function, like also confusing for marketers.

对于创始人和没有加入过大型营销团队的人来说，了解所有不同的功能是非常令人困惑的，对于营销人员来说也是如此。

And I think that's just because there's so many different sub functions of marketing and there's so many different things that marketers could do.

我认为这只是因为营销有很多不同的子功能，营销人员可以做很多不同的事情。

Emily Kramer: And there's such a range of being a deep specialist.

Emily Kramer：成为一名深度专家的范围如此之广。

You have people that are just deep SEO specialists or deep paid search specialists or writers and they love to write and they write long form content and that's definitely a part of what marketing does, but it's a specialty for sure.

有些人只是深度搜索引擎优化专家或深度付费搜索专家或作家，他们喜欢写作，他们写长篇内容，这绝对是营销工作的一部分，但它肯定是一个专业。

And then you have people that are just very much generalists and can handle all areas of marketing.

然后你的人都是非常多面手，可以处理营销的所有领域。

So a couple of mistakes that I see is just hiring people that don't cover the area that you need most as a startup.

因此，我发现的一些错误就是雇用的人员不涵盖初创公司最需要的领域。

And that kind of comes for two reasons.

出现这种情况有两个原因。

Emily Kramer: One, is like you don't know as a founder or someone else doing a marketing hiring for the first person, you don't know what you're going to be doing in marketing.

艾米莉·克莱默：第一，就像你不知道作为创始人或其他人为第一人进行营销招聘一样，你不知道自己将在营销中做什么。

You don't know what your big levers are going to be, you don't know what's going to work.

你不知道你的大杠杆是什么，你不知道什么会起作用。

And so you hire a marketer thinking they're like smart, they've done this before.

所以你雇佣了一位营销人员，认为他们很聪明，他们以前就这样做过。

But really they haven't done the thing that you need to do before.

但实际上他们还没有做过你之前需要做的事情。

So I see that especially with business model where I think having the right business model experience is almost more important than having industry experience or experience with that audience.

所以我认为，特别是在商业模式方面，我认为拥有正确的商业模式经验几乎比拥有行业经验或受众经验更重要。

Emily Kramer: And I think often people are like, I need someone who is marketed to HR or marketed to construction or that specific.

艾米丽·克莱默：我认为人们常常会说，我需要一个负责人力资源或建筑或特定领域营销的人。

And my response is you, you're going to really narrow your set up people with that, and also it doesn't matter as much because great marketers learn the audience and learn the product quickly.

我的回答是，你会以此缩小你的人员范围，但这并不重要，因为优秀的营销人员会快速了解受众并了解产品。

And sometimes that fresh set of eyes is helpful and you have other experts in house on the audience.

有时，新鲜的眼光会很有帮助，而且您还有其他专家在场。

But the business model really dictates what marketing does in a big way.

但商业模式确实在很大程度上决定了营销的作用。

And by business model I mean more like, are you doing top down sales?

我所说的商业模式更像是，你们正在进行自上而下的销售吗？

Are you selling the enterprise?

你要卖企业吗？

Emily Kramer: Are you doing bottom up product led growth or have a free version?

Emily Kramer：你们是在进行自下而上的产品主导增长还是有免费版本？

Or whatever it is.

或者无论它是什么。

Those types of things matter a lot.

这些类型的事情非常重要。

Because the set of marketing activities is just wildly different which I'm sure we'll go into.

因为营销活动完全不同，我确信我们会讨论这一点。

So to kind of summarize here, what I'd tell founders is I usually start when I talk to founders about who you need to hire in marketing.

因此，在这里总结一下，我要告诉创始人的是，当我与创始人谈论你需要在营销方面雇用谁时，我通常会开始。

Because usually the question is, I think I need a marketer, who do I hire?

因为通常的问题是，我认为我需要一名营销人员，我该雇用谁？

And my critic question, let's try to nail this down because there isn't one answer.

我的批评者问题是，让我们尝试确定这一点，因为没有一个答案。

It very much depends.

这很大程度上取决于。

Emily Kramer: There's usually some common archetypes.

Emily Kramer：通常有一些常见的原型。

But the first thing I say is forget all the sub-functions that you've heard about in marketing.

但我要说的第一件事是忘记您在营销中听说过的所有子功能。

Forget the product marketing content marketing partner, demand and growth, forget all of it and just think of marketing as you need fuel and you need an engine.

忘记产品营销内容营销合作伙伴、需求和增长，忘记所有这些，只需将营销视为您需要燃料和引擎。

And the goal is all the things that you're creating.

目标是你正在创造的所有东西。

I mean this should be obvious, but it's the content, it's the word that's the design and some regard, it's all the things you're making, all the things that are going to add value.

我的意思是这应该是显而易见的，但它是内容，它是设计和某些方面的单词，它是你正在制作的所有东西，所有将增加价值的东西。

Emily Kramer: An engine is how you get it out to the right people.

Emily Kramer：引擎就是将其发布给合适的人的方式。

And all of the tracking of that And of the ops work I put under engine.

所有的跟踪和操作工作我都放在引擎下。

So you still need an engine.

所以你还需要一个引擎。

And the question is, where do you have the biggest challenge right now or where do you think if you did more, you would grow faster?

问题是，你现在面临的最大挑战在哪里，或者你认为如果你做得更多，你会在哪里成长得更快？

Is it on fuel side or is on the engine side?

是在燃油侧还是在发动机侧？

Typically, if you just think about it logically, you kind of need the fuel first.

通常，如果您从逻辑上考虑，您首先需要燃料。

And sometimes what I see is people just build an engine first and they're like why isn't this working we're sending so many outbound emails?

有时我看到人们只是先构建一个引擎，然后他们会想为什么这不起作用，我们发送了这么多出站电子邮件？

And it's like, well you don't have anything valuable to put in those, you have no fuel so this isn't working.

就像，你没有任何有价值的东西可以放进去，你没有燃料，所以这是行不通的。

Emily Kramer: Or you see the flip side where they're making a whole bunch of things, they're writing a bunch of blog quotes or making a bunch of content and they're like, this content doesn't work.

艾米丽·克莱默：或者你看到的另一面是他们制作了一大堆东西，他们写了一堆博客引用或制作了一堆内容，他们就像，这些内容不起作用。

It's like, we'll, have you tried distributing it?

就像，我们会，你尝试过分发它吗？

Because if you're not distributing that and getting mileage out of it's a waste of time.

因为如果你不分发它并从中获取里程，那就是浪费时间。

So this is a big problem in marketing overall, getting the balance of fuel and engine rate.

因此，这是整个营销中的一个大问题，如何实现燃油和发动机功率的平衡。

But I like to start from what do you think is going to help most and what skillset does your team not have?

但我喜欢从您认为什么最有帮助以及您的团队不具备哪些技能开始？

And typically, if a team is sales driven top down, they might have an SDR or at least two at this time.

通常，如果一个团队是自上而下的销售驱动型，那么他们此时可能拥有一个或至少两个 SDR。

Emily Kramer: Usually that comes first in top down.

Emily Kramer：通常是自上而下首先出现的。

And so the SDRs are kind of an engine.

因此，特别提款权就像一个引擎。

They're an imperfect engine, outbound shouldn't be the only thing you're doing.

它们是一个不完美的引擎，出站不应该是您正在做的唯一事情。

And if they're just reaching out and asking people to schedule meetings, it might not be that effective but you have a little engine going on.

如果他们只是主动联系并要求人们安排会议，可能不会那么有效，但你有一个小引擎在运转。

So maybe now you need some fuel first.

所以也许现在你首先需要一些燃料。

On the other side of it, if you're a product growth or bottom up, you might have a situation where just nothing is optimized.

另一方面，如果您是产品增长或自下而上的产品，则可能会遇到没有任何优化的情况。

Your website's conversion rates are terrible, people are dropping out of the funnel all over the place.

你的网站的转化率很糟糕，人们到处都在退出渠道。

Emily Kramer: And you really need someone who can build up these lifecycle email touches, work in product instead of work with a product or a person as well.

Emily Kramer：你确实需要一个能够建立这些生命周期电子邮件接触的人，在产品中工作，而不是与产品或人一起工作。

And you really just need more engine because people are already finding out about your product or it has someone made virality and you're just not capturing enough of that.

你真的只需要更多的引擎，因为人们已经发现了你的产品，或者它已经有人进行了病毒式传播，而你只是没有捕捉到足够的信息。

So I kind of like decode, what's going to help the most right now?

所以我有点喜欢解码，现在什么最有帮助？

And then ideally you get someone, so move back to an engine first.

然后理想情况下你会找到一个人，所以首先回到引擎。

Lenny: Can I actually jump in real quick because that's a really cool framework that I haven't heard before, this idea of fuel and engine from a marketing perspective.

莱尼：我真的可以快速进入吗，因为这是一个非常酷的框架，我以前从未听说过，从营销角度来看燃料和发动机的想法。

To make it a little more concrete, what are a examples of, it doesn't have to be exhaustive, but when you think about all the things that could be fueled, and all the types of engines, what are those lists?

为了更具体一点，有哪些例子，它不必是详尽的，但是当您考虑所有可以提供燃料的东西以及所有类型的发动机时，这些清单是什么？

Emily Kramer: For sure.

艾米丽·克莱默：当然。

Yeah, I have a diagram of this stuff in my newsletter.

是的，我的时事通讯中有一个关于这些东西的图表。

Emily Kramer: So when I think about fuel and engine and what goes on either side, it's important to recognize that some things are fuel or engine and that some things are both fuel and engine.

艾米丽·克莱默：因此，当我考虑燃料和发动机以及两侧发生的情况时，重要的是要认识到有些东西是燃料或发动机，而有些东西既是燃料又是发动机。

Let me start with an example of something that's fuel and engine.

让我从燃料和发动机的例子开始。

If done well, your community, let's just take for instance, let's keep it simple because community needs 75 things.

如果做得好的话，你的社区，让我们举个例子，让我们保持简单，因为社区需要 75 件事。

If you have a Slack community that should be tool and engine.

如果你有一个 Slack 社区，它应该是工具和引擎。

If you have people creating content in there that maybe you can then use in other areas.

如果有人在那里创建内容，也许您可​​以在其他领域使用。

Like you do this well, you take what's going on in your community and you do your community wisdom parts of your newsletter.

就像您做得很好一样，您可以了解社区中正在发生的事情，并在时事通讯中体现社区智慧的部分。

Emily Kramer: So you're using that as fuel but it's also an engine because you have people in your audience that you can distribute out content too.

艾米丽·克莱默：所以你用它作为燃料，但它也是一个引擎，因为你的观众中有一些人，你也可以分发内容。

So there's some examples like that.

所以有一些这样的例子。

But to go back to the question of what fuel and what's an engine.

但回到什么燃料和什么是发动机的问题。

Fuel is like the copy on your website, it's the blog posts that you had, it's the templates that you've created.

Fuel 就像您网站上的副本，是您拥有的博客文章，是您创建的模板。

It's the video recordings of the webinars or the podcast.

这是网络研讨会或播客的视频录制。

It's basically content, but also to include some of the copy.

它基本上是内容，但也包括一些副本。

Emily Kramer: And I think people have this limited view of contents where they think blog posts and blog posts are still one part of content.

Emily Kramer：我认为人们对内容的看法很有限，他们认为博客文章和博客文章仍然是内容的一部分。

Content should be tools, resource, assembled like calculators, those kind of things do better in all the cases.

内容应该是工具、资源，像计算器一样组装，这些东西在所有情况下都做得更好。

Lenny: And positioning I imagine is a fuel.

莱尼：我认为定位是一种燃料。

Emily Kramer: Yeah.

艾米丽·克莱默：是的。

That's some of the product marketing steps.

这是一些产品营销步骤。

So product marketing is this weird thing and we'll talk about it that's kind of in the middle.

所以产品营销是一件很奇怪的事情，我们将在中间讨论它。

But yes, product marketing, doing any positioning.

但是是的，产品营销，做任何定位。

Again, like the web copy which is of the first manifestation of your positioning and messaging, or it should be the source of truth for all of that.

同样，就像网络副本一样，它是您的定位和消息传递的第一个体现，或者它应该是所有这些的真相来源。

But you're positioning, you are messaging the words, the words are the things you're creating, that's the fuel, things that add value in that way.

但你在定位，你在传递文字，文字就是你正在创造的东西，那就是燃料，以这种方式增加价值的东西。

The engine side is what people tend to call marketing growth or demand jam or things of that nature.

引擎方面就是人们通常所说的营销增长或需求堵塞或类似性质的东西。

Emily Kramer: That's really the distribution channels.

Emily Kramer：这确实是分销渠道。

The email copy itself is fuel, but how you've set up the email and the segmentation you've used and the rules for that drip email, that's the engine.

电子邮件副本本身是燃料，但是您如何设置电子邮件和您使用的分段以及点滴电子邮件的规则，这就是引擎。

The SEO content is fuel, but your SEO sort of keyword list as a technical FTO and that kind of stuff is sort of engine.

SEO 内容是燃料，但 SEO 关键字列表作为技术 FTO 之类的东西是引擎。

Social media, you got to have good fuel but you also have to nail it exactly what channels you're using and all that stuff.

社交媒体，你必须有良好的燃料，但你也必须准确地确定你正在使用什么渠道以及所有这些东西。

So a lot of things have both sides of it.

所以很多事情都是有两面性的。

So most projects or activities or initiative have some fuel and some engine.

因此，大多数项目、活动或倡议都有一些燃料和一些引擎。

Emily Kramer: I also consider marketing ops work, the setup of HubSpot or whatever it is you might be using.

Emily Kramer：我还考虑营销运营工作、HubSpot 的设置或您可能使用的任何内容。

That's engine.

那是发动机。

It's really instructing the engine, but I kind of put it in that bucket.

它确实在指导引擎，但我有点把它放在那个桶里。

Because people who are usually good at executing on email or executing on ads or things like that, usually have some working knowledge of the ops work and the reporting work because you have to be optimizing.

因为通常擅长执行电子邮件或执行广告或类似事情的人通常对运营工作和报告工作有一些工作知识，因为你必须进行优化。

I guess admin paid is also engine.

我想管理员付费也是引擎。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

And so coming back to your original piece of advice here is before hiring a marketing person, you want to figure out which of these buckets is the biggest constraint to your growth, right?

因此，回到你最初的建议，在雇用营销人员之前，你想弄清楚这些桶中的哪一个是对你的成长最大的限制，对吗？

Lenny: You talked about this briefly, but is there any simple heuristics to give you a sense of it's probably fuel, I need more great content, maybe some website updates versus I need to figure out how to get this out.

莱尼：你简单地谈到了这一点，但是有没有任何简单的启发式方法可以让你感觉到它可能是燃料，我需要更多精彩的内容，也许需要一些网站更新，而我需要弄清楚如何解决这个问题。

How do you think about that high level?

这么高的水平你怎么看？

Emily Kramer: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of simple.

艾米丽·克莱默：是的，我的意思是，这很简单。

You can just ask what are your top performing pieces of content or what's the top performing page on your website or things of that feature.

您可以只询问您的表现最好的内容是什么，或者您的网站上表现最好的页面是什么，或者该功能的内容。

Who is your product for?

你的产品适合谁？

Why is it better?

为什么更好？

What are the benefits?

有什么好处？

How does it compare to competitors?

与竞争对手相比如何？

If you don't have an answer for those questions, you don't have top performing content and you don't know your positioning and all that stuff, you got a fuel problem here.

如果你没有这些问题的答案，你没有表现最好的内容，你不知道你的定位和所有这些东西，你就遇到了燃料问题。

Oh, you wrote this really great piece of content and I saw it on your website, how are you distributing that?

哦，你写了这篇非常棒的内容，我在你的网站上看到了它，你如何分发它？

What are you doing?

你在干什么？

Emily Kramer: And they're like, I shared it on social, they didn't really go anywhere, you got an engine problem.

艾米丽·克莱默：他们就像，我在社交媒体上分享了它，他们并没有真正去任何地方，你遇到了引擎问题。

Or if I say, do you know what your final stages are?

或者如果我说，你知道你的最后阶段是什么吗？

You have two sales people now, how does the marketing sales handoff go?

您现在有两名销售人员，营销销售交接进展如何？

They're like, they share a list and block off everyone they should reach out to.

他们就像，他们共享一个列表并阻止他们应该联系的每个人。

I'm like, well, you have an adventure problem if this isn't going to scale.

我想，好吧，如果这不能扩大规模，你就会遇到冒险问题。

So it's just these basic things.

所以这只是这些基本的事情。

Are you doing these things or not?

这些事情你做还是不做？

And sometimes founders are really great at making the original sort of content and writing the early positioning.

有时创始人真的很擅长制作原创内容和撰写早期定位。

Emily Kramer: And they're the best suited to that and they just need someone to help them get that stuff out and that's when they need an engine person.

艾米丽·克莱默（Emily Kramer）：他们是最适合的人，他们只需要有人帮助他们把这些东西拿出来，那就是他们需要一名引擎人员的时候。

So that's basically how you figure it out.

所以基本上你就是这样理解的。

And normally when you ask vendors that question, they get it pretty quickly.

通常当你问供应商这个问题时，他们很快就会得到答案。

They're like, "Okay, I think this is my problem, I can kind of identify it." And then it's like, okay, from here, well, what exactly do you need and what exact type of marketer do you need?

他们会说，“好吧，我认为这是我的问题，我可以识别它。”然后就好像，好吧，从这里开始，你到底需要什么，你需要什么类型的营销人员？

And that's where everyone's answer is always, I think I heard from investors or I've been hearing from other founders that I really need a product marketer.

这就是每个人的答案总是，我想我从投资者那里听到或者从其他创始人那里听说我真的需要一个产品营销人员。

Emily Kramer: And the question is, well what do you think a product marketer is?

Emily Kramer：问题是，您认为产品营销人员是什么？

And you get a different answer every time.

每次你都会得到不同的答案。

In fact, when I was at Asana our COO, his question that he liked to ask all the marketers or all the product marketers that we were interviewing was just, "What's product marketing?" And that's the scariest question you can ask a product marketer.

事实上，当我在 Asana 担任首席运营官时，他喜欢问我们采访的所有营销人员或所有产品营销人员的问题就是：“什么是产品营销？”这是你可以问产品营销人员的最可怕的问题。

It's like no scarier question for a product marketer then hey, what's a product marketer?

对于产品营销人员来说，没有比这更可怕的问题了，嘿，什么是产品营销人员？

They're like, "Oh, shit, I have no idea.

他们就像，“哦，操，我不知道。

Just my job, it's me.

只是我的工作，就是我。

I'm a product marketer."

我是一名产品营销人员。”

Emily Kramer: But really a product marketer, they understand the product, they understand the audience and they understand the market in which you're operating.

艾米丽·克莱默：但真正的产品营销人员，他们了解产品，他们了解受众，他们了解您所在的市场。

And from there they can figure out how to communicate with your audience about the right things at the right time.

从那里他们可以弄清楚如何在正确的时间与观众就正确的事情进行沟通。

So they're kind of laying groundwork.

所以他们有点奠定基础。

And then they're also doing some work too.

然后他们也在做一些工作。

They're also doing a lot of the copywriting and the actual messaging and handling sort of launches and sometimes writing copy for things like emails and helping set the content strategy and things like that.

他们还做大量的文案写作和实际的消息传递以及处理发布之类的工作，有时还为电子邮件等内容撰写文案，并帮助制定内容策略等。

Emily Kramer: And people think they need product marketers.

艾米丽·克莱默：人们认为他们需要产品营销人员。

One because it's like a fake people say, but two, because product marketers tend to shadow this line between fuel and engine.

一是因为它就像人们所说的假货，二是因为产品营销人员倾向于掩盖燃料和发动机之间的这条界限。

They're more on the fuel side, but particularly they've done a lot of launches in the past.

他们更多的是在燃料方面，但特别是他们过去已经进行了很多发射。

They have a general understanding of channel strategy and what channels do at what time and that sort of end and stuff.

他们对渠道策略以及渠道在什么时间做什么以及诸如此类的事情有一个总体的了解。

But product marketers aren't really specialists in writing and producing content.

但产品营销人员并不是真正的编写和制作内容的专家。

They're not specialists in building out marketing ops or doing FDO.

他们不是构建营销运营或进行 FDO 的专家。

Emily Kramer: They're definitely more of the generalist function.

Emily Kramer：他们的功能绝对是多面手。

And so sometimes that's a great answer.

所以有时这是一个很好的答案。

You need a product marketer, but sometimes you need someone that's scrappier in different areas.

您需要一名产品营销人员，但有时您需要在不同领域更有斗志的人。

Another one of my frameworks is we start with doing these seal engine, what are the biggest problems?

我的另一个框架是我们从做这些密封引擎开始，最大的问题是什么？

What are the biggest things that if you did, you would drive growth?

如果您这样做，将推动增长的最重要的事情是什么？

And then we talk about the three typical subfunction that you would hire, which would be content, community type person, a growth demands and type person and a product marketer.

然后我们讨论您将雇用的三个典型子职能，即内容人员、社区类型人员、增长需求和类型人员以及产品营销人员。

And we kind of talk about what those three things mean.

我们讨论这三件事的含义。

Emily Kramer: And kind of align based on what you're saying, based on the fuel engine thing, probably in this type of person.

艾米丽·克莱默（Emily Kramer）：根据你所说的，基于燃油发动机的事情，可能是在这种类型的人身上。

And then from there, what I tell people when you're hiring your first marketer and probably even your first several marketers, you're more want to hire generalist than specialists.

然后，从那里开始，我告诉人们，当你雇用第一位营销人员，甚至可能是你的前几位营销人员时，你更想雇用通才而不是专家。

This is probably true for anywhere at the early stage startup, but specialists are great to hire.

对于早期创业阶段的任何地方来说，这可能都是正确的，但专家是非常值得聘请的。

It's great to hire contractors that are specialists.

雇用专家承包商是件好事。

Like the FDO contractor, even the contractor who can write the marketing ops contractor.

就像FDO承包商一样，甚至是可以编写营销运营承包商的承包商。

But you want someone who is pretty much a generalist.

但你想要的是一个几乎是多面手的人。

Emily Kramer: And the way I describe that within marketing, usually you you are like hire a T shape person that bites in one area and has working knowledge and try to crop all of them.

艾米莉·克莱默：我在营销中描述的方式是，通常你就像雇佣一个 T 型人，他只专注于一个领域，并且拥有工作知识，并尝试裁剪所有这些区域。

But I use this thing that I made up which is you one up higher pie shaped marketers, not pie like dessert, but pie like 3.14 where the pie symbol has two vertical lines.

但我使用我制作的这个东西，它是一个更高的饼形营销人员，不是像甜点那样的饼，而是像 3.14 那样的饼，其中饼图符号有两条垂直线。

So like a T but it has an extra line.

就像 T 一样，但它有一条额外的线。

And it's because you want the first marketer to be an expert in one of those three areas that I mentioned, product marketing, content marketing, growth marketing.

这是因为你希望第一位营销人员成为我提到的三个领域之一的专家，即产品营销、内容营销、增长营销。

Emily Kramer: And you want them to be proficient in another one, the second T.

Emily Kramer：你希望他们精通另一种，即第二个 T。

But you want them to be able to set strategy and know how to hire contractors across all of them.

但您希望他们能够制定策略并知道如何雇用所有承包商。

And so the promise land of hiring a first marketer, they are a pie shape marketer.

因此，雇用第一位营销人员的希望之地是，他们是饼形营销人员。

And so then you could hire a content and product marketing pie shape marketer, product marketing growth pie shape marketer.

因此，您可以聘请内容和产品营销饼形营销人员、产品营销增长饼形营销人员。

But it's like what are those two spikes and what's the one that you're going to worry less about that they need to work knowledge of?

但这就像这两个尖峰是什么，以及您不需要担心但需要了解的尖峰是什么？

Emily Kramer: The last thing I'll say on the pie piece is that it's really hard to find someone that's a content marketer that's also really good at growth.

艾米莉·克莱默（Emily Kramer）：我要说的最后一件事是，很难找到一个既擅长内容营销又擅长增长的人。

Like that pie shape marketer exists a lot less frequently.

就像饼形营销人员的存在频率要低得多。

Maybe it's someone who is really amazing at content distribution or really amazing at FDO, but they don't really exist.

也许这个人在内容分发方面非常出色，或者在 FDO 方面非常出色，但他们实际上并不存在。

Because the content side is like one side of the brain and the growth data stuff is a whole other side of the brain.

因为内容方面就像大脑的一侧，而成长数据的内容则是大脑的另一侧。

You don't find those people very often.

你不经常找到这些人。

So you are usually looking for that product marketing, growth marketing pie shaped person or the product marketing content marketing pie shaped person.

所以你通常会寻找产品营销、增长营销饼形人物或产品营销内容营销饼形人物。

Lenny: Wow, okay.

莱尼：哇，好吧。

This is great.

这太棒了。

So I was going to ask you about-

所以我想问你关于——

Emily Kramer: Sorry this is dense, this is a lot of marketing window, so hopefully we're breaking it down.

Emily Kramer：抱歉，这太密集了，这是一个很多营销窗口，所以希望我们能将其分解。

Lenny: Yeah, we're getting there.

莱尼：是的，我们快到了。

So let me try to summarize and see where we go.

因此，让我尝试总结一下，看看我们会走向何方。

So I was going to ask you about the archetypes of marketing people and it sounds like there's these three is the way you think about it.

所以我想问你关于营销人员的原型，听起来这就是你的想法。

There's basically a content community person, there's a growth person and then there's product marketing which is kind of like in the middle.

基本上有一个内容社区人员，有一个成长人员，然后是产品营销，就像中间一样。

And I guess, one question I wanted to ask is there's also just the growth function, product growth, growth PMs, things like that.

我想，我想问的一个问题是，还有增长职能、产品增长、增长 PM 等。

Do you see that as the same thing as this growth marketing person or is that a different type of person and a different role?

您是否认为这与这位成长营销人员是同一件事，或者是不同类型的人和不同的角色？

Emily Kramer: In top down sales businesses it is 100% different.

Emily Kramer：在自上而下的销售业务中，情况是 100% 不同的。

A growth person typically probably called a demand gen person.

成长型人才通常被称为需求型人才。

There's a whole other rabbit hole we can go down on what's the difference between growth marketing and demand gen.

我们还可以深入探讨增长营销和需求生成之间的区别。

And demand gen is probably more top of funnel and growth marketing is probably more full funnel at its simplest form.

需求生成可能更位于漏斗的顶部，而增长营销可能是最简单形式的更完整的漏斗。

But it's definitely different there.

但那里绝对不一样。

In a product led growth business, the growth marketer and the product grows sort of role or the hybrid growth role, sometimes it can be the same person depending on the skill.

在产品主导的增长业务中，增长营销人员和产品增长角色或混合增长角色，有时可以是同一个人，具体取决于技能。

Emily Kramer: But typically the difference would be that the growth marketer is doing more of the top of funnel sort of inbound side and the product growth person is doing more once they actually get into the product, but can be collaborated with that growth marketer.

Emily Kramer：但通常的区别在于，增长营销人员在漏斗顶部做更多的入站工作，而产品增长人员在真正进入产品后会做更多的事情，但可以与该增长营销人员合作。

So it can be the same person in extremely data driven sort of person that kind of has the working knowledge of both marketing and product stuff.

因此，在极度数据驱动型的人中，同一个人可能同时拥有营销和产品方面的工作知识。

It can be one person in early stage PLG companies.

可以是早期PLG公司中的一个人。

Emily Kramer: But I think typically, and I'm sure you've seen that at larger companies as you get bigger, you're going to have some people that come from more of that marketing perspective and you're going to have a little bit come from more of that product perspective.

艾米丽·克莱默：但我认为通常情况下，我相信你已经看到，在大公司中，随着规模的扩大，你将会有一些人更多地从营销角度出发，而你也会有一些人更多地从产品角度出发。

But the question is, is there ever one person that does that?

但问题是，有没有人这样做过呢？

Lenny: Okay, so to make this a little more concrete even for startups, thinking from a startup perspective, when you're just thinking about hiring your first say marketing person.

莱尼：好的，为了让这一点更加具体，即使对于初创公司来说，当你只是考虑雇用你的第一个营销人员时，从初创公司的角度思考。

When you think about this set of buckets that you talked about, there's content marketing, growth marketing, product marketing, plus to your point there's at larger companies or maybe later stages separate from a growth PM type person.

当你想到你谈到的这组桶时，有内容营销、增长营销、产品营销，加上你的观点，还有更大的公司，或者可能是与增长 PM 类型的人分开的后期阶段。

What do you generally think is the right role to hire/architect to focus on?

您通常认为雇用/架构师应该关注的正确角色是什么？

Or is it really dependent like you said on fuel versus engine versus something else?

或者它真的像你说的那样依赖于燃料、发动机还是其他东西？

Emily Kramer: I mean it's highly dependent on, again the business model, what you need more of, what you already have in place, what's going on.

Emily Kramer：我的意思是，它高度依赖于商业模式、您需要更多的东西、您已经拥有的东西以及正在发生的事情。

But the most common archetype that I say you want to hire is a product marketer.

但我说你想雇用的最常见的原型是产品营销人员。

Even though I joke that everyone says you need a product marketer.

尽管我开玩笑说每个人都说你需要一个产品营销人员。

But it's actually understanding what that is first, that understands growth marketing as well.

但实际上，首先要理解它是什么，才能理解增长营销。

So they probably work somewhere early on where they've had to have some exposure to that.

所以他们可能很早就在某个地方工作过，在那里他们必须接触到一些东西。

So they understand all the channels they're working with, understand what they can do with those channels and maybe they need to work with contractors on some of those things.

因此，他们了解他们正在使用的所有渠道，了解他们可以利用这些渠道做什么，也许他们需要与承包商合作处理其中一些事情。

Emily Kramer: Also product marketer needs to know how to write.

Emily Kramer：产品营销人员还需要知道如何写作。

All marketers should some working knowledge in writing, but they need to know how to write.

所有营销人员都应该具备一些写作方面的工作知识，但他们需要知道如何写作。

They are the copywriter for a long time.

他们长期担任文案。

Tests that they can write, make sure they can write well, short form and long form.

测试他们的写作能力，确保他们能写好，无论是短形式还是长形式。

They're not going to be necessarily as good in writing as say a content person, but they need to be able to write.

他们不一定像内容丰富的人那样擅长写作，但他们需要能够写作。

And product marketers just tend to have that ability to write and that ability to understand what channels they can use to reach their audience so they're in the middle.

产品营销人员往往具有写作能力和了解他们可以使用哪些渠道来接触受众的能力，因此他们处于中间位置。

So often that's the case.

很多时候都是这样。

Emily Kramer: But I mean, sometimes I find that I'm recommending hiring that growth person first because they maybe already have a couple of really great contractors and they have a couple of really great pieces of content that can just be gifts that keep on giving if they keep distributing them and repurposing them.

艾米莉·克莱默：但我的意思是，有时我发现我建议首先雇用成长型人才，因为他们可能已经拥有几个非常出色的承包商，并且他们拥有一些非常好的内容，如果他们不断分发并重新利用它们，这些内容就可以成为不断赠送的礼物。

Lenny: What do you look for in this product marketing person?

莱尼：您在产品营销人员身上寻找什么？

You mentioned ability to write is really important?

您提到写作能力真的很重要吗？

What else?

还有什么？

When someone's scanning LinkedIn or just later talking to them, what do you find is important to focus on and look for?

当某人浏览 LinkedIn 或稍后与他们交谈时，您发现什么是需要关注和寻找的重要内容？

Emily Kramer: This can be hard to find, but I think I want to see that they've worked on a team that's early enough where they are not siloed into their specific role.

Emily Kramer：这可能很难找到，但我想我希望看到他们在一个足够早的团队中工作，他们不会局限于自己的特定角色。

Because what happens at leader stage companies or at public companies is when you're a product marketer, you don't see what's going on in the rest of marketing at all.

因为在处于领先阶段的公司或上市公司中发生的事情是当你是产品营销人员时，你根本看不到营销的其余部分发生了什么。

You have a very siloed view of it, maybe you're only working on product launches as a product marketer, which the positioning is already set, the audience research already done, they haven't done any of those things, or the channels are all built out.

你对此有一个非常孤立的看法，也许你只是作为产品营销人员负责产品发布，定位已经确定，受众研究已经完成，他们还没有做任何这些事情，或者渠道都已经建立了。

Emily Kramer: It's just different.

艾米丽·克莱默：只是不同而已。

I think that's the case in a lot of roles at startups.

我认为初创公司的很多职位都是如此。

But building it from scratch is different.

但从头开始构建它是不同的。

So that doesn't mean that if you're a series A company hiring your first marketer that you need to hire someone that's worked at a Series A company.

因此，这并不意味着如果您是一家 A 轮公司，正在招聘第一位营销人员，您就需要雇用在 A 轮公司工作过的人。

But it usually means you're hiring someone that's worked at least at a growth stage company where they have exposure to a bunch of various marketing.

但这通常意味着你雇用的人至少在成长阶段的公司工作过，在那里他们接触过各种各样的营销人员。

Also looking for, have they seen what great looks like?

还要寻找，他们见过伟大的样子吗？

So whether they joined us startup up early and it did really well, or whether that's they had a stint at a later stage company and then earliest in their career, they're a big company then they went to some big smaller.

因此，无论他们很早就加入了我们的初创公司并且做得非常好，还是他们在后期阶段的公司工作过一段时间，然后在职业生涯的早期，他们是一家大公司，然后他们去了一些规模较小的公司。

Emily Kramer: Do they know what high quality sort of great looks like?

Emily Kramer：他们知道高品质的伟大是什么样子吗？

It doesn't always have to be, you don't have to have been at a startup that everyone thinks of as like, they're really great at marketing, but it is helpful.

并不总是必须如此，你不必一直在每个人都认为的初创公司工作，他们真的很擅长营销，但这很有帮助。

And there are some people that just have a really high quality bar and really understand what great marketing looks like even if they haven't worked in those companies.

有些人只是拥有真正高品质的酒吧，并且真正了解伟大的营销是什么样子，即使他们没有在这些公司工作过。

But I like to say has worked somewhere early enough that they could set strategy across all of marketing.

但我想说的是，他们在某个地方工作得足够早，他们可以在所有营销方面制定策略。

And do they know what great looked like?

他们知道什么是伟大吗？

That's something I'm scanning for.

这就是我正在扫描的东西。

I'm also scanning for your first marketer, you don't want to go out, I see this mistake all the time.

我也在扫描你的第一个营销人员，你不想出去，我一直看到这个错误。

Emily Kramer: You don't want to go out and hire someone super senior who's only worked at a public company.

Emily Kramer：你不想出去雇用只在上市公司工作过的超级资深人士。

That's the wrong person.

那是错误的人。

And often VCs or sort lead investors that aren't in a certain niche.

通常，风投或其他领先投资者并不属于某个特定领域。

when they refer candidates to startups, usually the fail I see is they're like, here's someone great from Google.

当他们将候选人推荐给初创公司时，我看到的失败通常是他们会说，这是来自谷歌的优秀人士。

And I'm like, I'm sure they're great but they're not great for this role and that's the mistake I see all the time.

我想，我确信他们很棒，但他们不适合这个角色，这就是我一直看到的错误。

Oh, we just fired our first marketer.

哦，我们刚刚解雇了第一位营销人员。

I'm like, "where did they work?" They're like, "They only worked at Salesforce." I'm like, well, yeah.

我想，“他们在哪里工作？”他们会说，“他们只在 Salesforce 工作过。”我想，嗯，是的。

Emily Kramer: Just because they don't understand how all the marketing works together and they don't understand how they built the foundation.

艾米丽·克莱默：只是因为他们不了解所有营销如何协同运作，也不了解如何建立基础。

It's much different marketing something that already everybody knows what it is or everybody knows the brand even if they don't know the product and they have a built in customer base, than building something up for scratch from scratch is just a very different marketing motion, and you need to do a lot of things.

这是一种非常不同的营销方式，每个人都知道它是什么，或者每个人都知道这个品牌，即使他们不知道产品，而且他们有内置的客户群，而从头开始构建产品只是一种非常不同的营销活动，你需要做很多事情。

You need to do a lot of things yourself, you need to be a doer.

很多事情你需要自己做，你需要成为一个实干家。

Emily Kramer: So you're really looking for most roles or most lead of function roles at startups, they need to be both strategic and of scrappy enough to get the work done.

Emily Kramer：所以你真的在寻找初创公司的大多数角色或大多数领导职能角色，他们需要既具有战略性又具有足够的斗志才能完成工作。

You're going to be doing it all.

你将会做这一切。

And in marketing you're often going to be the first marketer for a little while and you're going to be doing everything.

在营销中，你通常会在一段时间内成为第一个营销人员，并且你会做所有事情。

And so there has to be some sign that you're going to be comfortable with that.

所以必须有一些迹象表明你对此感到满意。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

When do you find that it's usually best to hire your first marketing person?

您发现通常什么时候最好聘请第一位营销人员？

Emily Kramer: I mean stage wise you're looking at some nice people hire at seed depending on their business, but usually it's in Series A or you hire one sort of more junior person at seed when you're coming into raising or Series A and then you know have two people right after your Series A.

Emily Kramer：我的意思是，从阶段来看，你会根据他们的业务寻找一些优秀的种子人才，但通常是在 A 轮融资中，或者当你进入融资或 A 轮融资时，你会在种子轮雇佣一位资历更浅的人，然后你知道在 A 轮融资之后就会有两个人。

But really, I think it's helpful to have some sort of semblance of product market fit.

但实际上，我认为拥有某种产品市场契合度是有帮助的。

Maybe you're not 100% sure, but maybe you have definitely some successful customers.

也许您不能百分百确定，但也许您肯定有一些成功的客户。

It's not like we're working with a design partner to build this out and we have a couple pilots.

我们并不是在与设计合作伙伴合作来构建这个项目，而且我们有几个试点。

Marketing is really good at accelerating growth and doing that scale one to many.

营销确实擅长加速增长并实现一对多的规模化。

Emily Kramer: So if you're still in the very well spoke founder led sales, founder led marketing, like I'm doing discovery with each of these potential customers and have to modify my product for them, that kind of thing.

艾米莉·克莱默：所以，如果你仍然处于创始人主导的销售、创始人主导的营销中，就像我正在与每个潜在客户进行发现一样，并且必须为他们修改我的产品，诸如此类的事情。

You don't need one yet.

你还不需要一个。

Founders can do a fair amount of stuff and they can use some contractors.

创始人可以做相当多的事情，他们可以使用一些承包商。

I think you need them earlier in product growth models because you're not going to hire a salesperson then.

我认为你在产品增长模型的早期就需要它们，因为那时你不会雇用销售人员。

So it's more thinking about go to market holistically and saying, do I need one or two people here and why is that?

因此，更多的是要全面考虑进入市场并说，我这里需要一两个人吗？为什么？

And so if you're a top down model sort of enterprise sale, you're probably going to have a couple sales people before you hire marketing, but that might not be the case.

因此，如果您采用自上而下的企业销售模式，那么在雇用营销人员之前，您可能会拥有几个销售人员，但情况可能并非如此。

Emily Kramer: And these are more self or product led growth models, you just don't need the sales person.

Emily Kramer：这些更多的是自我或产品主导的增长模式，你只是不需要销售人员。

So having the marketer is helpful.

因此，拥有营销人员是有帮助的。

So again, the business model affects this a lot, but usually the general rule of thumb is, if you had a marketer what would they do?

再说一遍，商业模式对此影响很大，但通常的一般经验法则是，如果你有营销人员，他们会做什么？

And I often help people try to figure that out.

我经常帮助人们尝试解决这个问题。

What would they do and if they stepped on the gas and did all this stuff really well, would you be able to handle all those people that came in?

他们会做什么？如果他们加大力度，把所有这些事情都做得很好，你能应付所有进来的人吗？

Is it even a good time to bring all those people in to your product?

现在是让所有这些人参与你的产品的好时机吗？

Emily Kramer: So are they going to be held back by where your product is or where some of the discovery on exact business model is or things like that.

艾米丽·克莱默：那么他们会因为你的产品在哪里或者在确切的商业模式上的一些发现或者类似的事情而受到阻碍吗？

And that's the case.

情况就是这样。

It's just not a good use money when they're kind of just sitting on their hands.

当他们坐以待毙时，这并不是一个很好的用途。

I can't spend any money on paid and we don't even have any idea what to say on the website because we're selling four different things.

我不能花任何钱付费，我们甚至不知道在网站上该说什么，因为我们正在销售四种不同的东西。

It's just kind of hard to hire someone in that case.

在这种情况下，雇佣一个人有点困难。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens.

莱尼：这一集是由 Athletic Greens 为您带来的。

I've been hearing about AG1 on basically every podcast that I listened to, like Tim Ferris and Mark Friedman.

我基本上在我听过的每个播客上都听说过 AG1，比如蒂姆·费里斯 (Tim Ferris) 和马克·弗里德曼 (Mark Friedman)。

And so I finally gave it a shot earlier this year, and it has quickly become a core part of my morning routine.

所以我终于在今年早些时候尝试了一下，它很快就成为我早上例行公事的核心部分。

Especially on days that I need to go deep on writing or record a podcast like this.

尤其是在我需要深入写作或录制这样的播客的日子。

Here's three things that I love about AG1.

以下是我喜欢 AG1 的三点。

One, with a small scoop that dissolves in water, you are absorbing 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens.

第一，只需一小勺溶于水的物质，您就可以吸收 75 种维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原。

I kind of like to think of it as little safety net for my nutrition in case I miss something in my diet.

我有点喜欢将其视为我的营养安全网，以防我在饮食中错过某些东西。

Lenny: Two, they treat AG1 like a software product.

Lenny：第二，他们将 AG1 视为软件产品。

Apparently they are on their 52nd iteration and they're constantly evolving it based on the latest science, research studies and internal testing that they do.

显然，他们正在进行第 52 次迭代，并且根据最新的科学、研究和内部测试不断对其进行改进。

And three, it's just one easy thing that I can do every single day to take care of myself.

第三，这只是我每天可以做的一件简单的事情来照顾自己。

Right now it's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition.

现在是时候恢复您的健康并用方便的日常营养来武装您的免疫系统了。

It's just one scoop and a cup of water every day and that's it.

每天只需一勺和一杯水即可。

There's no need for a million different pills and supplements to look out for your health.

无需使用一百万种不同的药物和补充剂来照顾您的健康。

To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase.

为了方便起见，Athletic Greens 将在您首次购买时为您提供一年免费的免疫支持维生素 D 和 5 个免费旅行套装。

Lenny: All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/lenny.

Lenny：您所要做的就是访问athletinggreens.com/lenny。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/lenny.

再说一次，那就是athletinggreens.com/lenny。

Take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance.

掌控您的健康并购买终极每日营养保险。

Just to set context, most of your experience is B2B, so I guess we should just let people know this is probably mostly B2B advice.

只是为了说明背景，您的大部分经验都是 B2B，所以我想我们应该让人们知道这可能主要是 B2B 建议。

Emily Kramer: Sorry.

艾米丽·克莱默：抱歉。

Yes, mostly B2B advice.

是的，主要是 B2B 建议。

I think a lot of this holds, I think the fuel engine stuff holds for B2C.

我认为这在很多方面都是成立的，我认为燃料引擎的内容也适用于 B2C。

I think the roles pretty much hold, but you might hear the word brand marketing thrown out a lot more in B2C and that's what we're going to be talking about, the fuel stuff and maybe that's going to be what they hire before they hire say like a product marketer.

我认为这些角色几乎是固定的，但你可能会听到“品牌营销”这个词在 B2C 中被更多地提及，这就是我们将要讨论的内容，燃料的东西，也许这将是他们在雇用产品营销人员之前所说的那样。

But it's kind of the same set of functions.

但这是同一组功能。

But most of my experience are B2B and most of the startups I work with are B2B, but some of it holds.

但我的大部分经验都是 B2B，我合作的大多数初创公司都是 B2B，但其中一些是成立的。

Lenny: Yeah, I was going to ask about brand marketing, that's like another bucket, right?

莱尼：是的，我想问有关品牌营销的问题，那就像另一个桶，对吧？

We haven't talked about that as a type of skill or does that fall into one of these that you've talked about?

我们还没有将其作为一种技能进行讨论，或者这是否属于您所讨论的其中一种技能？

Emily Kramer: To me, brand marketing is a combination or has some of the work that happens by a product marketer and by a content and community marketer.

Emily Kramer：对我来说，品牌营销是产品营销人员和内容和社区营销人员所做的一些工作的组合。

But maybe they also are more influential on the design side of things.

但也许他们在设计方面也更有影响力。

And so brand marketing is another one that needs 75 different things.

因此，品牌营销是另一项需要 75 种不同内容的营销。

Sometimes it means you literally manage designers or you're a trade up producer, and sometimes it means you are more doing work on what are the stories that we're trying to tell and you're doing more of the content stuff.

有时这意味着你实际上是在管理设计师，或者你是一名升级制作人，有时这意味着你更多地致力于我们想要讲述的故事，并且你正在做更多的内容工作。

And sometimes it means I'm doing the positioning work, sometimes it means I'm working on the website or branded paid stuff and consumer.

有时这意味着我正在做定位工作，有时这意味着我正在网站或品牌付费产品和消费者上工作。

Emily Kramer: So it means a lot of things too.

艾米丽·克莱默：所以这也意味着很多事情。

But usually in B2B, the person that kind of owns the brand is the positioning story side of brand is owned by product marketing.

但通常在B2B中，拥有品牌的人是品牌的定位故事方面是由产品营销拥有的。

And the design side of brand is either just owned by the product designer on first or working with a brand designer or if the marketer has skillset set there could be owned by them as well.

品牌的设计部分要么首先由产品设计师拥有，要么与品牌设计师合作，或者如果营销人员拥有技能，那么他们也可以拥有。

So it's a little murky at first, but eventually on B2B teams when I've grown teams plus 10 to 15 people, I'll have a brand person that is working really closely with the designers and kind of making sure that everything that we're producing on the content side of things is up to...

所以一开始有点模糊，但最终在 B2B 团队中，当我的团队规模扩大到 10 到 15 人时，我将有一个品牌人员与设计师密切合作，并确保我们在内容方面制作的所有内容都取决于……

They're acting as sort an editor there.

他们在那里充当编辑的角色。

Emily Kramer: They're making sure everything ladders up to the overall story.

艾米丽·克莱默（Emily Kramer）：他们正在确保一切都符合整个故事。

So they're helping tell the story, they're helping make sure the design is right.

所以他们正在帮助讲述故事，他们正在帮助确保设计是正确的。

And in some instances I'll have a brand person that's kind of working on these larger brand initiatives.

在某些情况下，我会有一名品牌人员负责这些更大的品牌计划。

We did a huge data study when I was at Carta and the person that kind of ran that whole initiative and the events and it was sort of a separate initiative that had a lot of different parts was my brand marketer.

当我在 Carta 时，我们做了一项庞大的数据研究，负责整个计划和活动的人是我的品牌营销人员，这是一个独立的计划，有很多不同的部分。

They were kind of working on these larger sort of big data project that's made across all of marketing.

他们正在研究跨所有营销领域的大型大数据项目。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Well you talked about the growth PM role kind of adjacent to all this.

嗯，您谈到了与这一切相关的增长 PM 角色。

For the typical say PLG startup, in your experience, do you find folks should hire more of a marketing person than a growth person that focuses on say, conversion or optimizing the funnel or SEO or paid or anything like that?

对于典型的 PLG 初创公司来说，根据您的经验，您是否发现人们应该雇用更多的营销人员，而不是专注于转化或优化漏斗或 SEO 或付费或类似内容的成长人员？

What's your experience there?

你在那里的经历如何？

Emily Kramer: For PLG I think you want to have a marketer that is responsible for getting people into the product, that's a marketing profile.

Emily Kramer：对于 PLG，我认为你希望有一个营销人员负责让人们了解产品，这就是营销简介。

That's using all of these channels that's driving inbound, that's focused on web conversion, making sure your website converts, that's a marketing skillset.

这是使用所有这些推动入站的渠道，专注于网络转化，确保您的网站转化，这是一种营销技能。

Because it's really likely you have to work with to get this done is really how I think about it.

因为很可能你必须合作才能完成这件事，这就是我的想法。

And you have to work with the people that own the website which is marketing for all of these sort of inbound stuff you are going to work with a lot of people on the marketing team.

你必须与拥有该网站的人合作，该网站正在营销所有这些入站内容，你将与营销团队中的很多人合作。

So that piece is really a marketing piece.

所以那件作品实际上是一件营销作品。

Emily Kramer: The product experiments and the product test, that's a person with a product skill set because they know how to work with other PMs, they know how to work with engineers and marketers don't.

Emily Kramer：产品实验和产品测试是一个拥有产品技能的人，因为他们知道如何与其他产品经理合作，他们知道如何与工程师合作，而营销人员则不知道。

And then there's these gray areas like the onboarding experience or when you first get into the product.

然后还有一些灰色区域，例如入职体验或首次进入产品时。

And that is an area where there needs to be a ton of collaboration.

这是一个需要大量合作的领域。

So my view is that if you're going to have a growth PM, it's probably helpful for them to have EM experience or product experience, but they should be paired as soon as they can be with someone that also understands that top of model piece.

所以我的观点是，如果你要拥有一名增长 PM，那么拥有 EM 经验或产品经验可能对他们有帮助，但他们应该尽快与也了解顶级模型部分的人配对。

Emily Kramer: Or maybe that person isn't in a full-time growth role, but know who on the marketing team is going to work with them on these areas of crossover like onboarding or that first use experience.

Emily Kramer：或者也许那个人并不担任全职增长角色，但知道营销团队中的谁将与他们在这些交叉领域（例如入职或首次使用体验）合作。

And making sure that the signup flow from filling out something on the website to getting in the product is really consistent.

并确保从在网站上填写内容到进入产品的注册流程确实一致。

Because that area of I'll fill out a handoff, we talk about the marketing to sales handoff all the time on the go to market side, but there's a marketing to product handoff.

因为我将在该区域填写交接，所以我们一直在进入市场方面谈论营销到销售的交接，但有一个营销到产品的交接。

And that's the handoff that's really important in PLG.

这就是 PLG 中真正重要的交接。

And that feels weird to a user, it's two different teams inside of a company.

这对用户来说感觉很奇怪，因为这是公司内部的两个不同的团队。

Emily Kramer: But if that that feels weird to a user, you're going to notice that all of a sudden feels extremely disjoined.

Emily Kramer：但是如果用户感觉很奇怪，你会发现突然感觉非常脱节。

Or if I'm getting a bunch of product transactional emails while I'm getting a bunch of marketing drip emails.

或者，如果我收到一堆产品交易电子邮件，同时收到一堆营销点滴电子邮件。

So that handoff or that experience needs to be ironed out or consistent or there needs to be tons of collaboration there.

因此，这种交接或那种体验需要得到解决或保持一致，或者需要进行大量的协作。

So however that is done, I don't really care what the teams look like.

所以无论怎样做，我并不真正关心团队是什么样子。

Lots of different companies have different versions of how they do this.

许多不同的公司都有不同的版本。

But the idea is that experience needs to feel consistent and you need to have collaboration across people that have those skill sets and you need to have a clear process for how that looks.

但我们的想法是，体验需要感觉一致，你需要在拥有这些技能的人之间进行协作，并且你需要有一个清晰的流程来实现它的外观。

Emily Kramer: And so it's just getting that marketing sales handoff in my opinion.

Emily Kramer：我认为这只是营销销售的交接。

It's like how do you get the marketing to product handoff right?

就像如何正确地将营销转移到产品上？

And if it means you have someone that owns onboarding, it's in a hybrid role, then great.

如果这意味着您有一个负责入职培训的人，并且处于混合角色，那就太好了。

If it means there's a committee sort of situation with one person at the DRI, that's great too.

如果这意味着 DRI 中存在一个由一个人担任委员会的情况，那也很好。

So I think my answer is, I don't think there's one way to structure it, it's just highly dependent on the company overall.

所以我认为我的答案是，我认为没有一种方法可以构建它，它只是高度依赖于公司整体。

And I think you need both skill sets.

我认为你需要这两种技能。

Lenny: You touched on an area of tension that often comes up between marketing and product.

莱尼：您谈到了营销和产品之间经常出现的紧张关系。

I imagine many listeners hear you saying, marketing should own the website and conversion and net flow.

我想很多听众都听到你说，营销应该拥有网站、转化率和净流量。

And thinking about the idea of product led growth.

并思考产品引领增长的理念。

The idea that is product will grow our business and oftentimes PMs do that work and oftentimes they're really good at it.

产品的想法将促进我们的业务发展，产品经理通常会做这项工作，而且他们通常非常擅长。

And so I guess the question is, in your experience, do you find that it should be marketing more than product or product people?

所以我想问题是，根据您的经验，您是否发现营销应该比产品或产品人员更多？

Lenny: Is it depending on the person, maybe they're called the product person, but they actually are really good at marketing.

Lenny：这取决于人，也许他们被称为产品人，但他们实际上非常擅长营销。

Any insights there?

有什么见解吗？

And then we're going to talk about just collaboration between the two functions.

然后我们将讨论这两个功能之间的协作。

Emily Kramer: So I think that product led growth is a misnomer.

Emily Kramer：所以我认为产品主导型增长是用词不当。

I think people will do anything they can possibly do not call marketing marketing.

我认为人们会做任何他们可能不称之为营销的事情。

I think we always see this.

我想我们总是看到这一点。

And so I think that product led growth really means not as much sales, which means product plus marketing.

所以我认为产品主导的增长实际上并不意味着那么多的销售，这意味着产品加营销。

And so that's probably a hot take.

所以这可能是一个热门观点。

But product led growth is just another name for what we like.

但产品主导型增长只是我们喜欢的另一个名称。

I mean, product led growth is a little different than premium or sales server, these things.

我的意思是，产品主导的增长与高级或销售服务器等略有不同。

But you are being handheld by the product, you aren't being handheld by the sales team.

但你是由产品来掌管的，而不是由销售团队来掌管的。

Emily Kramer: So really to me, and you can have a sales assist with product led grow as well.

Emily Kramer：对我来说，确实如此，您也可以在以产品为主导的增长方面获得销售协助。

But typically what's more at odds in my mind is product led growth means you are going to have a huge sales team early on.

但在我看来，通常更矛盾的是产品主导的增长意味着你将在早期拥有一支庞大的销售团队。

It doesn't mean you're not going to have a huge marketing team early on.

这并不意味着您早期不会拥有一支庞大的营销团队。

In fact, to me it means you are going to have a bigger marketing team early on because you're not going to have those sales.

事实上，对我来说，这意味着您将在早期拥有更大的营销团队，因为您不会获得这些销售。

Sales is not communicating with customers.

销售不是与客户沟通。

So I think it comes back to what are these teams typically good at?

所以我认为这又回到了这些团队通常擅长什么？

And marketing is typically good at the communication piece of one to many.

营销通常擅长一对多的沟通。

That's what they're good at.

这就是他们所擅长的。

Emily Kramer: And so they're usually good.

艾米丽·克莱默：所以它们通常都很好。

They should be good at figuring out all the channels to have a funnel to communicate with people.

他们应该善于找出所有渠道，建立与人们沟通的渠道。

And product is really using product as a channel by which to communicate with customers prospects, et cetera.

产品实际上是使用产品作为与潜在客户沟通的渠道，等等。

So that's one way of thinking about the difference.

这是思考差异的一种方式。

On conversion, conversion also means lots of different things.

关于皈依，皈依也意味着很多不同的事情。

There's top of funnel conversion, getting on the website and filling out some other form.

有漏斗顶部的转换，即访问网站并填写其他表格。

There's conversion once you're in the product becoming an active user or inviting people.

一旦您在产品中成为活跃用户或邀请人们，就会发生转化。

So it's like, well, which part of conversion?

所以这就像是，转换的哪一部分？

Web conversion, I typically think of something that's owned by marketing because usually product doesn't want to own the website.

网络转换，我通常会想到营销所拥有的东西，因为通常产品不想拥有网站。

Emily Kramer: Early on products will sometimes own the website because marketing wasn't there.

Emily Kramer：早期，产品有时会拥有网站，因为营销不存在。

But the website is something that's going to need to be updated like 5,000 times and it needs to be on Webflow preferably at this point or DMS that's easy update.

但是该网站需要更新大约 5,000 次，并且此时最好在 Webflow 上或易于更新的 DMS 上。

And if it's built into the code base that's like it, or it's on a headless CMS or it's not touchable by marketing, that's a huge problem.

如果它内置于类似的代码库中，或者它位于无头 CMS 上，或者营销无法触及，那就是一个大问题。

When it comes to once they click the signup button, who should be mostly involved in that process?

当他们点击注册按钮时，谁应该主要参与该过程？

I think again, there needs to be, I think there's lots of ways to handle that.

我再次认为，需要有，我认为有很多方法可以解决这个问题。

Emily Kramer: And I think if it's product it kind of has that skillset and the testing skillset and there's enough volume that you can be doing a bunch of tests, maybe that's the person that owns that.

艾米丽·克莱默：我认为，如果它是产品，它就具有相应的技能和测试技能，并且有足够的数量，您可以进行大量测试，也许这就是拥有它的人。

But I think there's still going to be a lot of collaboration on the exact words that are used and things like that.

但我认为在使用的确切词语和类似的事情上仍然会有很多合作。

So I think it's just whatever it is, make it clear where the handoff is.

所以我觉得不管是什么，明确交接点在哪里就可以了。

And so maybe it's not marketing on the entire website because maybe they don't own those flows, but there's this gray area.

因此，也许这不是在整个网站上进行营销，因为也许他们不拥有这些流量，但存在这个灰色区域。

And I think the other big thing is sometimes the forms, the literal forms that are used are built in your website and sometimes they're built in the product.

我认为另一件大事有时是表单，所使用的文字表单是内置在您的网站中的，有时它们是内置在产品中的。

Emily Kramer: And I think that also drives a lot of it because it's who do you need to help you build these things?

Emily Kramer：我认为这也推动了很多事情，因为你需要谁来帮助你构建这些东西？

And if they're built into the product, then the product team needs to own that.

如果它们被内置到产品中，那么产品团队就需要拥有它。

But it shouldn't to me like this, let's not argue about it, we're trying to move this and here's the things that marketing is going to do and here's the things that product is going to do, and here are the areas of overlap.

但对我来说不应该这样，我们不要争论这个问题，我们正在努力改变这一点，这是营销要做的事情，这是产品要做的事情，这是重叠的领域。

But I don't think products should be in the business of owning the whole website and all the top of funnel messaging and all of that stuff.

但我认为产品不应该从事拥有整个网站和所有顶级渠道消息传递以及所有这些东西的业务。

That's not the best use of anyone's time really.

这确实不是任何人时间的最佳利用方式。

Lenny: I know you had a lot of success with marketing and product working together at Asana, and kind of double clicking on the same thread.

Lenny：我知道你在 Asana 的营销和产品方面取得了很大的成功，并且双击同一个线程。

What have you seen to be an important part of this collaboration and making one plus one equal three, when product and marketing and working together at a B2B company?

当产品和营销在 B2B 公司一起工作时，您认为这种合作的重要组成部分是什么？使一加一等于三？

Emily Kramer: And look like there were definitely ups and down marketing working with product at Asana as well.

Emily Kramer：看起来 Asana 的产品营销也肯定有起有落。

But I think overall we did a good job because of some of the systems that Asana had in place.

但我认为总体而言我们做得很好，因为 Asana 拥有一些系统。

Which is and we talked about this before but something that Asana did well is they had this list in Asana of course, everything at Asana was in Asana through Asana by Asana.

这是我们之前讨论过的，但 Asana 做得很好的是他们在 Asana 中列出了这个列表，当然，Asana 的一切都在 Asana 中，通过 Asana by Asana。

But we had a list of areas of responsibility which is just who owns what, it's not your job title.

但我们有一份责任范围清单，只是谁拥有什么，而不是你的职称。

It's what are the things that you are the DRI for?

您担任 DRI 的目的是什么？

It doesn't mean you're not going to collaborate with people on those things.

这并不意味着您不会在这些事情上与人们合作。

So what are you the directly responsible individual for?

那么您是哪方面的直接责任人？

Emily Kramer: And this made it really easy to know who to go to.

Emily Kramer：这让我们很容易知道该去找谁。

I'm just going to use DRI because I can't keep saying directly responsible individuals.

我将使用 DRI，因为我不能一直说直接负责的个人。

So the DRI on tests on the onboarding experience is Jennifer the PM.

因此，负责入职体验测试的 DRI 是 PM Jennifer。

But the copywriter for that is, I don't know, I'm sure who think of exactly who the person was, is Devin on marketing.

但这个文案的撰稿人是，我不知道，我确定谁能想到这个人到底是谁，是负责营销的德文。

So we broke it down that's simply so you knew who to go to.

所以我们把它分解了，这样你就知道该去找谁。

Because often what happens with product is they're like, I'm doing a launch, I don't know, especially when there's 15 marketers, I don't know if I'm supposed to go for this product launch or to figure out if this is a launchable feature, so I'm just going to skip it.

因为产品经常发生的情况是，我正在做一次发布，我不知道，特别是当有 15 个营销人员时，我不知道我是否应该参加这个产品发布或弄清楚这是否是一个可发布的功能，所以我会跳过它。

Emily Kramer: So it's really helpful to say the product marketer owner for this part of the product is this and to just have this list.

Emily Kramer：因此，说这部分产品的产品营销人员是这个并且拥有这个列表确实很有帮助。

So just having clear ownership is what this comes down to.

因此，归根结底，只有拥有明确的所有权。

But it's one thing to have clear ownership but it's quite another to for other teams to know who that clear owner is.

但拥有明确的所有权是一回事，但让其他团队知道谁是明确的所有者则是另一回事。

So I think having a clear list beyond titles and just like who owns what is really helpful.

所以我认为除了头衔之外还有一个清晰的清单，就像谁拥有什么一样，真的很有帮助。

And then as you hire new people, you can break down those, the list kind of gets longer because you're going to break things down more.

然后当你雇用新人时，你可以分解这些，列表会变得更长，因为你要分解更多的东西。

It goes from Emily owning all of marketing to me breaking that down and not owning all of it.

从艾米丽拥有所有的营销权到我打破它而不拥有全部。

Emily Kramer: So I found that really helpful.

Emily Kramer：所以我发现这真的很有帮助。

I also found at Asana we did something called Roadmap Week, which was before every quarter.

我还发现，在 Asana，我们在每个季度之前都会开展一项名为“路线图周”的活动。

Where we had of open meetings, sometimes they were open and sometimes they weren't.

我们举行公开会议时，有时是公开的，有时则不是。

But we had cross-functional meetings to help plan for what you were going to do that quarter on your team.

但我们召开了跨职能会议，以帮助您计划该季度您的团队要做什么。

So I could sit in on the product road mapping for X as the head of marketing.

这样我就可以作为营销主管参与 X 的产品路线规划。

And that was really helpful to just get a sense for what was going on.

这对于了解正在发生的事情确实很有帮助。

And sometimes there'd be people in those that were silent participators, and then adopting that would be made so you could see this.

有时，有些人是沉默的参与者，然后采取这种做法，这样你就可以看到这一点。

Emily Kramer: And maybe it doesn't scale forever, but it worked really well early on for people being able to be looped on things, to have these sort of out loud landing meetings where you were talking through here are our biggest decisions.

Emily Kramer：也许它不会永远扩展，但它在早期非常有效，让人们能够在事情上循环，举行这些大声的登陆会议，你在这里讨论的是我们最大的决定。

Here's what we're wrestling between and getting input, kind of knowing what was going on.

这就是我们正在努力解决的问题，并获取意见，了解发生了什么。

I think another thing that we did well was also having clear review processes.

我认为我们做得很好的另一件事是拥有清晰的审核流程。

And all of this sounds like a lot of process, but once you actually make an AORs list, it kind of runs itself.

所有这些听起来像是很多过程，但一旦您真正制定了 AOR 列表，它就会自行运行。

Someone new gets hired, they're excited to put in their AORs or someone gets the new responsibility and they're stoked to take it over from the head of marketing or whatever it is.

新员工被聘用时，他们很高兴能加入自己的职责，或者有人获得新职责，他们很高兴从营销主管或其他主管手中接过这个职位。

Emily Kramer: I finally have handed you the master managing editor AOR and it becomes a big deal.

Emily Kramer：我终于把主编 AOR 交给了你，这成了一件大事。

The other thing that I think we did well from a marketing perspective is another newsletter that I have is this framework that I use called the GACCS or the GACCS.

我认为从营销角度来看我们做得很好的另一件事是我的另一份时事通讯，我使用的框架称为 GACCS 或 GACCS。

Which GACCS sounds more fun to say than the GACCS.

哪个GACCS听起来比GACCS更有趣。

But this is just a marketing brief that I recommend you do before you make anything big in marketing or do any big projects.

但这只是我建议您在营销方面做任何大事或做任何大型项目之前先做的营销简介。

And it's just what are the goals?

目标是什么？

What's the audience?

观众是什么？

What's the creative or unique end goal?

创意或独特的最终目标是什么？

What's this thing?

这是什么东西？

I guess what's going to make it different and stand out from other companies?

我想是什么让它与众不同并从其他公司中脱颖而出？

Emily Kramer: The second C is the channels or how this is going to be distributed.

Emily Kramer：第二个 C 是渠道或如何分配。

How are you going to get the word out about this?

你打算如何把这件事传出去？

Deep thinking there.

那里有深刻的思考。

And then the last few are the stakeholders.

最后几个是利益相关者。

Who's the DRI and who needs to weigh in and who's going to be the helper?

谁是 DRI，谁需要参与，谁将提供帮助？

Who are the contributors?

谁是贡献者？

And that's where you can include some product people and you can share this before you start doing any work.

您可以在其中加入一些产品人员，并且可以在开始做任何工作之前分享这些内容。

So for instance, if you're doing a product launch, product manager communicates with the marketing team.

举例来说，如果您正在进行产品发布，产品经理将与营销团队进行沟通。

Maybe you have a meeting, maybe you share some brief from the product guide or you share sort of what's being built.

也许您要开会，也许您分享产品指南中的一些简介，或者您分享正在构建的内容。

Emily Kramer: And then marketing comes back to you with the GACCS.

Emily Kramer：然后营销又通过 GACCS 回到你身边。

And you can kind weigh in on, here are the channels that are going to be using.

您可以参与其中，以下是将要使用的渠道。

The creative C has maybe the highest level messaging.

创意 C 可能具有最高级别的信息传递。

And you get buy in early on and then you can go much faster.

而且你尽早买入，然后你就能走得更快。

And then you're not just sharing with product, here's a blog post that I wrote for the launch.

然后你不仅仅是与产品分享，这是我为发布而写的一篇博客文章。

And you're like, what?

你会想，什么？

This is the wrong audience, the wrong thing.

这是错误的观众，错误的事情。

You just save so much time sharing these types of things up front.

预先分享这些类型的事情可以节省很多时间。

So I find there's a handful of different practices that need to be in place, but it's sharing the right information at the right level of information at the right times and having a culture of doing that.

因此，我发现需要采取一些不同的做法，但它是在正确的时间以正确的信息级别共享正确的信息，并拥有这样做的文化。

Emily Kramer: And it needs to go both ways.

Emily Kramer：这需要双向进行。

Product needs to loop marketing and they are like, here's what we're working on this quarter here are going to be some of the things that we're launching or any of these interesting that you want to double down on and do what public launch for or whatever it is.

产品需要循环营销，他们就像是，这就是我们本季度正在做的事情，这将是我们正在推出的一些东西，或者任何您想要加倍努力并进行公开发布或其他任何东西的有趣的东西。

Or we really think onboarding needs to be approved.

或者我们确实认为入职需要获得批准。

Let's put together a group that's going to work on this quarter and let's kind of have a spring plan that's cross-functional.

让我们组建一个小组，在本季度开展工作，并制定一个跨职能的春季计划。

It's a lot of that.

这样的事有很多。

So a lot of this happens in a planning process.

因此，很多事情都发生在规划过程中。

So if you as a company don't have a good planning process, you're not going to have good cross-functional collaboration, especially between product and marketing.

因此，如果您作为一家公司没有良好的规划流程，您将无法进行良好的跨职能协作，尤其是在产品和营销之间。

Emily Kramer: And I think the last thing is just a respect for the skillset.

Emily Kramer：我认为最后一件事就是对技能的尊重。

Recognizing you are good at this or you have access to engineers, you know how to get them to do things.

认识到你擅长这件事或者你可以接触到工程师，你就知道如何让他们做事。

I don't want to do that as a marketer.

作为营销人员我不想这样做。

I'm good at storytelling and I know how to get people in the door in the funnel.

我擅长讲故事，我知道如何让人们进入渠道。

And let's respect what each person is good at and let them go do their thing.

让我们尊重每个人的长处，让他们去做自己的事情。

So those are just some of the tactical practices and things that we did in Asana that I thought worked well.

这些只是我们在体式中所做的一些战术实践和事情，我认为效果很好。

But it's hard.

但这很难。

Emily Kramer: I mean, everyone wants the other team to be doing something a little bit differently and that's always going to be the case.

Emily Kramer：我的意思是，每个人都希望其他团队做一些不同的事情，而且情况总是如此。

And those tensions in some cases are good because that's why you have the benefit of having different teams and different perspectives.

在某些情况下，这些紧张关系是好的，因为这就是为什么你可以从拥有不同的团队和不同的观点中受益。

But it gets out of hand when people are just working in silos and aren't communicating with each other, aren't looping people in on things that they're experts on.

但是，当人们只是在孤岛中工作并且彼此不沟通，不让人们参与他们擅长的事情时，事情就会失控。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

All the templates and frameworks that you mentioned we're going to link to in the show notes.

您提到的所有模板和框架我们将在演示笔记中链接到。

One of the things I love about is you're like a PM minded marketer where you make everything super concrete and templated and assigned.

我喜欢的一件事是，你就像一个有 PM 头脑的营销人员，你让一切都变得非常具体、模板化和分配。

Emily Kramer: I like a framework, I like a framework and I like a template.

Emily Kramer：我喜欢框架，我喜欢框架，我喜欢模板。

And I am pretty PM minded because I'm pretty well rounded when it comes to the marketing skillset.

我非常注重产品经理，因为我在营销技能方面非常全面。

I don't really consider myself a growth marketer or a product marketer or a content marketer.

我并不真正认为自己是增长营销人员、产品营销人员或内容营销人员。

I just consider myself a marketer who builds teams and that's a different mindset.

我只是认为自己是一个建立团队的营销人员，这是一种不同的心态。

And I also love goals and planning.

我也喜欢目标和计划。

No, I don't love annual planning processes that companies do and overdone OKR exercise.

不，我不喜欢公司制定的年度计划流程和过度的 OKR 练习。

It's where you're making this crazy cascade that then nobody can follow.

在这里你可以制造出疯狂的瀑布，然后没有人可以跟随。

Emily Kramer: But basic sort of simple planning so that you kind of go a little slower up front so then you can just fly out getting things out the door.

艾米丽·克莱默：但是基本的简单计划，这样你就可以在前面放慢一点，这样你就可以飞出去把东西带出去。

That's the kind of teams I like to lead.

这就是我喜欢领导的团队。

Emily Kramer: It's like upfront buy in and then move back, do what you need to do.

Emily Kramer：这就像预先买入，然后退后，做你需要做的事情。

Lenny: I love the sound of that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个声音。

We're also working on a guest post that may come out before this comes out or after around a lot of this templates.

我们还在制作一篇客座帖子，该帖子可能会在此模板发布之前或之后发布。

So I'm excited to get that out the door.

所以我很高兴能把它推出去。

Coming back to this kind of tension that often happens between PMs and marketing people.

回到产品经理和营销人员之间经常发生的这种紧张关系。

Tell me if you agree, but I find that product teams are always often very skeptical of marketing and find that there's just all this time, energy, resources put into marketing efforts.

如果你同意，请告诉我，但我发现产品团队总是对营销持怀疑态度，并发现他们将所有的时间、精力和资源投入到营销工作中。

And it's hard to measure who knows what's happening there.

很难衡量谁知道那里发生了什么。

Lenny: While the product continues to evolve, you can tell what it's doing.

Lenny：当产品不断发展时，你可以知道它在做什么。

It's often driving most of the growth.

它通常推动大部分增长。

And so my main question here is, as a product person, what tells you that the marketing person and team is good and awesome and you should trust them and they know what they're doing, versus maybe they're not amazing and we should try to push back?

所以我的主要问题是，作为一名产品人员，什么告诉你营销人员和团队是优秀的、很棒的，你应该信任他们，他们知道自己在做什么，而不是也许他们并不出色，我们应该尝试反击？

Any advice there?

有什么建议吗？

Emily Kramer: Yeah, I recently did a talk with my friend Jenny, who was the head of content at Asana and now is the head of content in Palms at Clear Lake.

Emily Kramer：是的，我最近和我的朋友 Jenny 进行了一次谈话，她是 Asana 的内容主管，现在是 Palms at Clear Lake 的内容主管。

And she was sort of joking.

她有点开玩笑。

We were coming up for the name of the talk and she was like, "I want to call it content splatergy versus content strategy." And I was like, "We'll work that in, but maybe that won't be the title, splatergy is really weird word." But it's true.

我们正在讨论演讲的名称，她说：“我想将其称为内容泼溅与内容策略。”我当时想，“我们会解决这个问题，但也许这不会是标题，飞溅是一个非常奇怪的词。”但这是真的。

But I think it's funny because a lot of what marketing is that splatergy not strategy, meaning it's just like you just throw a bunch of stuff out there.

但我认为这很有趣，因为很多营销都是泼溅而不是策略，这意味着它就像你只是把一堆东西扔在那里。

Emily Kramer: And if you're doing a bunch of work and it's like a lot of busy work and you want to look busy, but it's not impact focus.

艾米丽·克莱默：如果你正在做一堆工作，而且这就像很多忙碌的工作，你想看起来很忙，但这不是影响焦点。

The best marketing teams are impact focus.

最好的营销团队注重影响力。

They can tell you of all the things they're doing, what are the core things that are of driving that linear growth or just keeping the lights on.

他们可以告诉你他们正在做的所有事情，推动线性增长或只是保持运转的核心事情是什么。

They can tell you what their big bets are.

他们可以告诉你他们的大赌注是什么。

What are the things that we are doing right now that we believe can cause step change, top of the funnel growth?

我们现在正在做的哪些事情是我们认为可以带来阶梯式变化、漏斗顶部增长的？

Or step change growth on signups or whatever it might be?

或者注册人数的逐步增长或其他什么可能的变化？

What are those things?

那些东西是什么？

What are the big bets that you're taking?

您所下的大赌注是什么？

And then what are the foundational pieces of marketing that aren't done yet that might be taking up time?

那么还有哪些尚未完成且可能会占用时间的基础营销工作呢？

Emily Kramer: We would love to be able to move faster here, but we're like, we don't have a good lead scoring system or we're working on this.

Emily Kramer：我们希望能够在这里更快地行动，但我们认为，我们没有一个好的线索评分系统，或者我们正在努力解决这个问题。

We need to redo our website and here's why we need to get it into Webflow and then we'll be able to move faster.

我们需要重做我们的网站，这就是为什么我们需要将其纳入 Webflow，然后我们才能更快地行动。

So they should be able to break down.

所以他们应该能够崩溃。

Here are the core things we have to do.

这是我们要做的核心事情。

We're measuring that the core work is working by these TBIs and it's sort of a full funnel view.

我们正在衡量这些 TBI 的核心工作，这是一个完整的漏斗视图。

And we are working on these big bets and here's the foundational things that are broken.

我们正在致力于这些大赌注，但以下是一些基础性的东西已经被打破了。

So if you ask a marketing lead and you're like, What are their big bets?

因此，如果你问营销主管，你会问，他们的大赌注是什么？

And they're like, I don't know.

他们就像，我不知道。

Emily Kramer: You can't grow at the rate of venture back startups, you grow by just continuing to do incremental things.

Emily Kramer：你无法以风险投资初创公司的速度成长，你只能通过继续做渐进的事情来成长。

That's the same as product I would imagine as well.

这也与我想象的产品相同。

So they need to have this sort of framework going on.

所以他们需要有这样的框架。

And the other thing that I think is a sign that you're not being impact focused or you're not being effective as a marketing team is this is my favorite thing to pick on And I see it all the time.

我认为另一件事表明你没有注重影响力，或者你作为营销团队没有发挥作用，这是我最喜欢选择的事情，我一直看到它。

And I understand why it happens, but don't do it.

我明白为什么会发生这种情况，但不要这样做。

If our goal is to write 10 blog posts this month.

如果我们的目标是这个月写 10 篇博客文章。

And I'm like, no, that's not a goal, that's maybe a tactic.

我想，不，这不是目标，这可能是一种策略。

But the goal should be traffic and the conversion rate from that traffic or the signups that come from that.

但目标应该是流量以及来自该流量或来自该流量的注册的转化率。

Emily Kramer: So you shouldn't have activity goals, you should have impact goals.

Emily Kramer：所以你不应该有活动目标，你应该有影响力目标。

And so the best marketing teams are focused on these funnel metrics.

因此，最好的营销团队都会关注这些漏斗指标。

They're not just focused on a certain number signups or qualified leads.

他们不仅仅关注一定数量的注册人数或合格的潜在客户。

They're focused on that number plus maintaining or improving the conversion rate that comes after it.

他们专注于这个数字以及维持或提高其后的转化率。

So they're focused on signups with a conversion rate to activated user of the same or better than it is now.

因此，他们专注于注册后的激活用户转化率与现在相同或更好。

Because I can get a lot more people to sign up for a product, but they might be really shitty quality.

因为我可以让更多的人注册一个产品，但它们的质量可能真的很差。

So you need to have sort of that other threshold.

所以你需要有其他的门槛。

So these are some of the things that I look at to say, is marketing team impact focused?

因此，这些是我要说的一些事情，营销团队是否注重影响力？

Emily Kramer: And when I talk to companies or work with marketers and look at what are they doing and what are their projects, these are the things I usually point out.

Emily Kramer：当我与公司交谈或与营销人员合作并查看他们在做什么以及他们的项目时，这些是我通常指出的事情。

You need to be more impact focused and here's what you need to do.

您需要更加注重影响力，这就是您需要做的。

So that's the big thing that's like are they doing a bunch of busy work or are they doing a bunch of things that can actually lead to tangible growth and what metrics are they using to track that?

所以这就是一件大事，比如他们是否在做一堆忙碌的工作，或者他们是否在做一堆实际上可以带来切实增长的事情，以及他们使用什么指标来跟踪这些增长？

The other thing is if they're not tracking to my point about not just looking at the raw numbers at each stage of the funnel, but looking at the conversion rates.

另一件事是，他们是否没有遵循我的观点，即不仅查看漏斗每个阶段的原始数据，还查看转化率。

Emily Kramer: If they're not looking at conversion anywhere at all, there's a huge problem.

Emily Kramer：如果他们根本不考虑任何地方的转换，那就是一个巨大的问题。

Because again, I can throw a bunch of people into a funnel stage but they don't convert to the next one, it might not be helping anything.

因为同样，我可以将一群人放入漏斗阶段，但他们不会转换到下一个阶段，这可能没有任何帮助。

So their focus on conversion not just at the stage of the funnel that they own, but throughout the entire funnel, I think also is a good indicator on if they're being successful as marketers or not.

因此，他们不仅关注自己渠道的阶段，而且关注整个渠道的转化，我认为这也是衡量他们作为营销人员是否成功的一个很好的指标。

Lenny: Yeah, these are great.

莱尼：是的，这些都很棒。

I feel like everything you're saying is music to every PM's ears.

我觉得你所说的一切对每个 PM 来说都是美妙的。

That great marketing people should be impact focused, have clear goals in KPIs.

优秀的营销人员应该注重影响力，在 KPI 中有明确的目标。

You also talked about how it's important to DRIs, like who is responsible for what, being really clear about that, communicating really clearly and often.

您还谈到了这对于 DRI 的重要性，例如谁负责什么、对此非常清楚、经常进行非常清晰的沟通。

And then there's this piece about just setting the foundations, like a strong foundation that helps make all these other things successful.

然后是关于奠定基础的这篇文章，就像一个有助于使所有其他事情成功的坚实基础。

This is great.

这太棒了。

Lenny: I imagine every PM would be like, This is exactly what I want from my marketing team.

Lenny：我想每个 PM 都会这样，这正是我对营销团队的期望。

And your point here is, if your marketing team and lead is not doing these things well, maybe there's an issue and maybe it's not the right marketing person.

你的观点是，如果你的营销团队和领导没有做好这些事情，也许存在问题，也许不是合适的营销人员。

Emily Kramer: Yeah.

艾米丽·克莱默：是的。

And look, if it's not the team lead, because sometimes you do have, especially at a larger company, you have a team lead that's either on the, you could have someone that's extremely sort of creative and on the brand side of things.

看看，如果不是团队领导，因为有时你确实有，特别是在一家大公司，你有一个团队领导，要么是，要么是，你可能有一个非常有创造力和品牌方面的人。

But they need to have someone that's working with them that is really good at all of this stuff.

但他们需要有一个真正擅长所有这些事情的人与他们一起工作。

It's almost like we need marketing PMs then those tend to be the product marketers or the lead.

这几乎就像我们需要营销产品经理，然后这些人往往是产品营销人员或领导者。

Because there's so many different projects going on and lots of different things happening.

因为有很多不同的项目正在进行，也有很多不同的事情发生。

And it's hard to put it all together and say, what are we doing as a marketing team that's moving the needle.

很难将所有这些放在一起并说，作为一个正在推动发展的营销团队，我们正在做什么。

Emily Kramer: But I think the other thing about communicating often, it's also communicating at the right level.

艾米丽·克莱默：但我认为经常沟通的另一件事是在正确的水平上进行沟通。

I find that marketers, even though they're often good at communicating with the audience, they're not good at communicating internally.

我发现营销人员虽然经常擅长与受众沟通，但他们并不擅长内部沟通。

And I think I've struggled here too as they move to leading larger teams and being on executive teams which is like, what level of information do you need to communicate?

我想我在这里也遇到了困难，因为他们转向领导更大的团队并加入执行团队，这就像，你需要沟通什么级别的信息？

And you need to educate people about what marketing does.

你需要教育人们营销的作用。

Because one, marketing often has a bad reputation and so you need to be like, here's what we're actually doing and moving.

因为第一，营销往往名声不好，所以你需要这样，这就是我们实际正在做和正在采取的行动。

Emily Kramer: And two, there's a lot of jargon in marketing and you got to separate that out and communicate the right level of information at the right time.

艾米莉·克莱默：第二，营销中有很多行话，你必须将其分开，并在正确的时间传达正确级别的信息。

So I think that's hard too.

所以我觉得这也很难。

And so that's why I like things like the DAXs framework and other things like that.

这就是为什么我喜欢 DAX 框架和其他类似的东西。

And what exactly am I communicating about and at what level.

我到底在沟通什么内容以及在什么层面上进行沟通。

It's hard to get right there too.

也很难到达那里。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

One last question before we get to our very exciting lightning round.

在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有最后一个问题。

Lenny: You've been waiting all week.

莱尼：你已经等了一个星期了。

So you mentioned that you're a full-time investor basically at this point and the newsletter is a part of that.

所以你提到你现在基本上是一名全职投资者，时事通讯是其中的一部分。

You've become a really active angel investor and it's really cool to have seen the way you've turned your experience in this really smart way of getting into great deals and supporting founders.

您已经成为一名非常活跃的天使投资人，看到您将自己的经验转变为这种非常明智的方式来达成伟大的交易并支持创始人，真是太酷了。

And so I'm curious if you have any advice for folks that are thinking about becoming angel investors in the future, just how to leverage their expertise to become successful in investing.

因此，我很好奇您是否对那些考虑未来成为天使投资人的人有什么建议，如何利用他们的专业知识在投资上取得成功。

Emily Kramer: I think there's a big need for investors that have functional expertise.

Emily Kramer：我认为投资者非常需要具备职能专业知识。

In traditional VCs.

在传统的风险投资中。

They don't necessarily, maybe they founded companies, maybe they've always been investors or sometimes VC and they really come from sales roles or PM roles.

他们不一定，也许他们创立了公司，也许他们一直是投资者，有时是风险投资家，他们实际上来自销售角色或产品经理角色。

But for me and for marketing and maybe for some of the roles of other people are in, there's not a lot of investors or even advisors from that function and they need help there.

但对于我和营销人员来说，也许对于其他人所担任的某些角色来说，该职能部门的投资者甚至顾问并不多，他们需要帮助。

And so I think more and more founders are seeing, instead of having advisors or even hiring someone at a function early, it's like, let me lean on angel investors for that.

因此，我认为越来越多的创始人意识到，与其尽早聘请顾问，甚至在某个职能部门聘用人员，不如让我依靠天使投资人来实现这一目标。

Emily Kramer: And so I make it very clear when I talk to founders, this is how I'm going to help.

Emily Kramer：因此，当我与创始人交谈时，我会非常明确地表示，这就是我将提供帮助的方式。

I'm going to help you build your marketing function.

我将帮助您建立营销职能。

I'm definitely going to help you hire, or I'm going to help you shape the job description of the process.

我肯定会帮助您招聘，或者我会帮助您制定流程的工作描述。

I'm probably going to refer you some candidates.

我可能会向您推荐一些候选人。

I might even refer the candidate that you hire which has happened a bunch of times.

我什至可能会推荐您雇用的候选人，这种情况已经发生过很多次了。

And then I'm going to work with that person to make sure that they're setting the right strategy and doing the right things.

然后我将与那个人合作，确保他们制定正确的策略并做正确的事情。

And so being that clear on here's my exact value add is incredibly helpful.

因此，清楚地了解我的确切增值是非常有帮助的。

Emily Kramer: And I mean, we get into every deal that we want to.

艾米丽·克莱默：我的意思是，我们达成了我们想要达成的每一项协议。

We being I have a business partner named Kathleen, that I do all this with and we can get into any deal.

我有一个名叫凯瑟琳的商业伙伴，我和她一起做所有这些事情，我们可以达成任何交易。

Which I think as an early angel investor, I'm like, why are people saying it's hard to get into a deal?

我认为作为早期天使投资者，我想，为什么人们说很难达成交易？

I don't have this problem.

我没有这个问题。

And that's not me tapping myself on the shoulder.

那不是我拍自己的肩膀。

It's just showing there's huge shortage here.

这只是表明这里存在巨大的短缺。

So your skillset might be really valuable to founders and even if you feel like, I don't understand how everything works at a company or things like that, your skillset could be really valuable and they might not see it.

因此，你的技能对创始人来说可能真的很有价值，即使你觉得，我不明白公司的一切是如何运作的或类似的事情，你的技能可能真的很有价值，但他们可能看不到。

Emily Kramer: It's also when you have a unique skill set and a unique way that you help well articulated.

Emily Kramer：当你拥有独特的技能和独特的方式时，你就能很好地表达自己的观点。

We're going to help you build marketing, it's easy to understand.

我们将帮助您建立营销，这很容易理解。

It makes me easier for other people to bring you into deals.

这让我更容易让其他人与你达成交易。

Versus here's another generalist investor that's just going to help.

与此相对的是，另一位多面手投资者只会提供帮助。

So it's almost like you got to product market yourself.

所以这几乎就像你必须自己营销产品一样。

What's the product that you're offering?

你们提供什么产品？

And then it's so easy, you know Lenny to bring me into deals where they might need some marketing help and there's tons of investors that do that which gets us to deal flow that we need.

然后就很容易了，你知道莱尼让我参与他们可能需要一些营销帮助的交易，并且有大量投资者这样做，这让我们获得了我们需要的交易流。

Emily Kramer: So I just think if you have a niche or you have an area where you're particularly skilled, you can really leverage that into being a sought after angle.

Emily Kramer：所以我认为如果你有一个利基市场或者你有一个特别擅长的领域，你真的可以利用它来成为一个受欢迎的角度。

Now, if that makes you a good investor, I'm not sure, there's lots of other things you need to get up to speed on to actually be a good investor.

现在，如果这能让你成为一名优秀的投资者，我不确定，你还需要加快很多其他事情才能真正成为一名优秀的投资者。

But from the standpoint of helping founders and getting into deals, that can be really helpful.

但从帮助创始人和达成交易的角度来看，这确实很有帮助。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And the other part is you actually have to deliver because then people share more deals with you.

另一部分是你实际上必须交付，因为这样人们就会与你分享更多的交易。

And as I said earlier, I've heard so often how helpfully you've been to founders and so that's an important element.

正如我之前所说，我经常听说你对创始人有多么有帮助，所以这是一个重要的因素。

Emily Kramer: Yeah, you definitely have to deliver.

艾米丽·克莱默：是的，你一定要交付。

And again, I think that's where it's really helpful to say where you're going to deliver.

再说一遍，我认为这就是说出你要交付的内容真正有帮助的地方。

So they're not necessarily expecting you to deliver on every little thing.

所以他们并不一定期望你能完成每一件小事。

They're expecting me to help them hire their marketer, hire contractors in marketing, fill in gaps until they have the marketing team that they need.

他们希望我帮助他们雇用营销人员、雇用营销承包商、填补空白，直到他们拥有所需的营销团队。

And so they know when to come to you and then you respond.

这样他们就知道什么时候来找你，然后你就会做出回应。

I think that's also like when people have full-time jobs, I think it's hard to be able to do that full-time jobs that aren't this, it's hard to be able to just tap in and do this kind of stuff.

我认为这也就像当人们有全职工作时，我认为很难做除此之外的全职工作，很难能够仅仅利用并做这种事情。

Emily Kramer: So it's like don't go overboard because your reputation really, really matters and that's how we've always seen it.

艾米丽·克莱默：所以不要太过分，因为你的声誉真的非常重要，这就是我们一直以来的看法。

We want to be the most helpful angel investors or now we have a small client, but the helpful sort of most helpful investors that you have in your cap table regardless, not just within marketing but within everything.

我们希望成为最有帮助的天使投资者，或者现在我们有一个小客户，但无论如何，你的资本表中都有最有帮助的投资者，不仅在营销方面，而且在所有方面。

And we do that because we can go really deep on an area and we're always responsible on those areas.

我们这样做是因为我们可以深入研究某个领域，并且我们始终对这些领域负责。

And it's good to hear it's working because that's what we're trying to do is be really, really helpful.

很高兴听到它正在发挥作用，因为这就是我们正在努力做的，真的非常有帮助。

Emily Kramer: And the other thing too, the last thing I'll say on that is each founder probably thinks, maybe they don't, that it takes us a lot more time than it actually does to be helpful in that area.

Emily Kramer：还有另一件事，我要说的最后一件事是，每个创始人可能认为（也许他们不这么认为），我们在该领域提供帮助所需的时间比实际花费的时间要多得多。

I had the same conversations over and over again about how to hire a marketer.

关于如何聘请营销人员，我一遍又一遍地进行同样的对话。

I can do it in my sleep.

我可以在睡梦中做到。

So me having that conversation with you and dropping knowledge that you haven't heard, this is what I do all day.

所以我与你进行对话并放弃你没有听说过的知识，这就是我一整天所做的事情。

But it feels really new because they don't have a lot of people talking to them about marketing.

但这感觉真的很新，因为没有很多人与他们谈论营销。

We just have a bunch of candidates that we talk to and our newsletter generates candidates that we talk to.

我们只有一群与我们交谈的候选人，而我们的时事通讯会生成与我们交谈的候选人。

Emily Kramer: So anyone can go on our website and get on our list of candidates that we're referring.

Emily Kramer：所以任何人都可以访问我们的网站并进入我们推荐的候选人名单。

I talk to one or two candidates a week from that to just meet more marketers.

我每周都会与一两个候选人交谈，以便结识更多的营销人员。

So I have a list of marketers I can refer and say, it's really easy when clients ask me for referrals.

因此，我有一份可以推荐的营销人员名单，并且当客户向我寻求推荐时，这真的很容易。

So it starts to scale pretty well if you have that niche where you help.

因此，如果你有可以提供帮助的利基市场，它就会开始很好地扩展。

Lenny: Yeah, I was actually going to add that it may sound scary to feel like you commit to all these startups as an investor, you have to help founders all day.

莱尼：是的，我实际上想补充一点，感觉你作为投资者致力于所有这些初创公司，这听起来可能很可怕，你必须整天帮助创始人。

I can say I've invested over 150 companies at this point, which on the surface could feel overwhelming.

我可以说我目前已经投资了超过 150 家公司，从表面上看这可能让人感觉难以承受。

Like holy shit, all these founders are probably asking you for advice all the time.

就像天哪，所有这些创始人可能一直在向你寻求建议。

But I find it's not that, most founders just leave me alone, I'm good.

但我发现事实并非如此，大多数创始人只是放过我，我很好。

Lenny: Or maybe once a quarter, here's something I could really use help with.

莱尼：或者也许每个季度一次，这是我真正需要帮助的事情。

But it's not as much time as you think and when it is it's really powerful, but it's not an overwhelming amount of time commitment.

但这并不像你想象的那么多，而且当它真正强大时，它确实很强大，但这并不是压倒性的时间投入。

Emily Kramer: The other thing there too is if you refer someone that a company hires, they're going to lobby you forever.

艾米丽·克莱默：另一件事是，如果你推荐公司雇用的人，他们会永远游说你。

You remember that because you sit there and you look at that, I mean, you're maybe not anymore looking at them in an office, but you see and are aware of them every day.

你记得因为你坐在那里看着它们，我的意思是，你可能不再在办公室里看着它们，但你每天都会看到并意识到它们。

And you remember, they came from this person.

你记得，它们来自这个人。

So one of the most valuable things you could do is refer candidates.

因此，您可以做的最有价值的事情之一就是推荐候选人。

And so that's where I think you can add a ton of leverage.

所以我认为这就是你可以增加大量杠杆的地方。

You're just referring the right people.

您只是推荐了正确的人。

So if you have a network and a bunch of people that you know in a certain area like that scenario where you can really do a lot of good for a startup.

因此，如果你有一个网络和一群你在某个领域认识的人，比如那种情况，你真的可以为初创公司做很多好事。

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

Speaking of doing good, we've reached our exciting lightning round.

说到做好事，我们已经进入了激动人心的闪电回合。

Lenny: So I'm just going to ask you five questions real quick.

莱尼：所以我只想快速问你五个问题。

Whatever comes to mind, let me know.

无论想到什么，请告诉我。

First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to people?

第一个问题，您向人们推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Emily Kramer: I like the classic marketing book, maybe because I think if they're not a classic and they're recency based, marketing changes so fast, like most things in startups and technology.

艾米莉·克莱默：我喜欢经典的营销书籍，也许是因为我认为，如果它们不是经典并且基于最近的时间，那么营销变化就会如此之快，就像初创公司和技术领域的大多数事情一样。

It changes so fast that I like the things that have stood the test of time.

它变化如此之快，以至于我喜欢那些经受住时间考验的东西。

And those are things like The Tipping Point and Crossing The Chasm.

这些就是《引爆点》和《跨越鸿沟》之类的东西。

And I like Seth Godin's Purple Cow, which is just having something that makes you stand out.

我喜欢 Seth Godin 的 Purple Cow，它拥有让你脱颖而出的东西。

So those are the classic marketing books and I think every marketer or some of them should have read at some point.

这些都是经典的营销书籍，我认为每个营销人员或其中一些营销人员都应该在某个时候读过。

I think April Dunford's Obviously Awesome is sort of becoming one of those books that every marketer should have read on positioning.

我认为阿普丽尔·邓福德（April Dunford）的《显然很棒》正在成为每个营销人员都应该阅读的关于定位的书籍之一。

Emily Kramer: It's really helpful even if you're not a product marketer doing positioning, I think it's really helpful.

Emily Kramer：即使您不是进行定位的产品营销人员，这也确实很有帮助，我认为这确实很有帮助。

And then the book I read most recently is not related to marketing at all.

然后我最近读的书根本与营销无关。

I read is my partner's favorite book and she was always like, I don't think you're going to like this book, I don't think you'll like it, but it's her favorite book.

我读的是我伴侣最喜欢的书，她总是说，我不认为你会喜欢这本书，我不认为你会喜欢它，但这是她最喜欢的书。

And it's All The Light We Cannot See about World War II which is of a depressing topic giving all of the tumultuousness in the world.

这是关于第二次世界大战的《我们看不到的一切》，这是一个令人沮丧的主题，展现了世界上的所有动荡。

But I thought it was just a very beautifully written book.

但我认为这只是一本写得很漂亮的书。

Emily Kramer: And when you read a lot of business writing a lot, it's kind of nice to step back and just read really beautiful pros on a really heavy topic that isn't just startup marketing.

艾米莉·克莱默（Emily Kramer）：当你读了很多商业文章时，退后一步，阅读一些非常漂亮的专业人士关于一个非常沉重的话题的文章，而不仅仅是创业营销。

So it was kind of fun to go back and read sort of a older book that was really beautifully written.

因此，回去阅读一本写得很漂亮的旧书是很有趣的。

Next one, Lenny.

下一位，莱尼。

Lenny: Next question, okay.

莱尼：下一个问题，好吧。

What's a favorite podcast for you?

您最喜欢的播客是什么？

Emily Kramer: Besides yours, obviously.

艾米丽·克莱默：显然除了你的。

No, I mean, you're doing a great job for someone who's just started off doing podcast.

不，我的意思是，对于刚开始做播客的人来说，你做得很好。

You go deep with people which I think is good, it's not just the service level stuff.

我认为你与人深入交流是件好事，这不仅仅是服务水平的问题。

Look like the podcast I listen to most is like every night when I go to sleep, I listen to The Daily, the New York Times Daily just gets me to know what's going on.

看起来我最常听的播客就像是每天晚上睡觉时我都会听《The Daily》，《纽约时报》让我知道发生了什么。

I also like some true crime podcasts but I won't talk about that because maybe that's a little embarrassing and basic.

我也喜欢一些真实犯罪播客，但我不会谈论这一点，因为这可能有点尴尬和基础。

And I think for just getting understanding founders and startups over the years, I found How I Built This to be really helpful.

我认为，对于多年来了解创始人和初创公司来说，我发现《我是如何构建的》非常有帮助。

Emily Kramer: And I think the main thing I learned from How I Built This is that most startups are really happy.

Emily Kramer：我认为我从《我是如何构建的》中学到的主要内容是，大多数初创公司都非常高兴。

And so if you feel at the beginning if you feel like, we're are just a mess, we're doing everything wrong, that's kind of common.

所以，如果你一开始就觉得，我们只是一团糟，我们做的一切都是错的，这很常见。

So it's helpful in that regard too.

所以在这方面它也很有帮助。

It's like, it's not just me.

好像，不只是我一个人这样。

But I think there's really interesting founder story and hearing how things are built is always helpful.

但我认为创始人的故事非常有趣，了解事物是如何构建的总是有帮助的。

So those are some that I like.

这些都是我喜欢的。

Lenny: Favorite recent movie or TV show?

莱尼：最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Emily Kramer: My favorite TV show from this year was Yellowjackets on Showtime, which is kind of Lord of the Flies, which had a bunch of women.

Emily Kramer：今年我最喜欢的电视节目是 Showtime 上的《黄衫军》，有点像《蝇王》，里面有一群女人。

Lord of the Flies meets lost.

蝇王遇见失落。

It's really good.

真的很好。

So it has Christina Ricci in it, the person who was in Casper and now in if you were a girl that grew up in the late 80s and 90s, you will know who Christina Ricci is, or a guy, any gender.

所以里面有克里斯蒂娜·里奇（Christina Ricci），那个曾经在《卡斯珀》和现在《卡斯珀》的人。如果你是一个在 80 年代末和 90 年代长大的女孩，你就会知道克里斯蒂娜·里奇是谁，或者是一个男人，任何性别。

I really liked Yellowjackets.

我真的很喜欢黄衫军。

I think it's great.

我认为这很棒。

Emily Kramer: And it was the first show in a while that I've been watching it where I like for the first couple of episodes, I wasn't on my phone half the time.

艾米丽·克莱默：这是一段时间以来我第一次在我喜欢的地方观看前几集的节目，我有一半时间没有玩手机。

So that's like my measure for, is it good?

这就像我的衡量标准，好吗？

And then the best movie I've seen recently was we watched CODA, which I think it won some Oscars or something.

我最近看过的最好的电影是《CODA》，我认为它赢得了一些奥斯卡奖或其他奖项。

Emily Kramer: Oh, okay.

艾米丽·克莱默：哦，好吧。

So it wasn't the Oscar.

所以这不是奥斯卡。

So I'm really original in my picks here.

所以我在这里的选择非常原创。

I'm like, I just watched the Oscar Best Picture, I thought it was great.

我想，我刚刚看了奥斯卡最佳影片，我觉得它很棒。

No, but CODA was like, I think I cried, or at least I almost cried.

不，但 CODA 说，我想我哭了，或者至少我几乎哭了。

Emily Kramer: Yeah, it's about a family who can't hear and then their daughter can hear and they become really interested in music.

艾米莉·克莱默：是的，这是关于一个听不见的家庭，然后他们的女儿可以听到并且他们对音乐变得真正感兴趣。

And there's the story of a family and they're a family of fisherman in Massachusetts, which my brother is a clamor in Massachusetts that's his job.

有一个家庭的故事，他们是马萨诸塞州的一个渔民家庭，我的兄弟在马萨诸塞州大声疾呼，那是他的工作。

Not his only job, but one of his job that he clams.

这不是他唯一的工作，但却是他所从事的工作之一。

So he doesn't quite have that fisherman vibe, but somewhat relevant.

所以他不太具有渔夫的气质，但有些相关。

Yeah, really, really good movie.

是的，真的，非常好的电影。

Lenny: And that last scene, powerful.

莱尼：最后一幕，很震撼。

Too much, I'm going to start crying.

太多了，我要开始哭了。

Emily Kramer: It's a good one, it's a good family story.

艾米丽·克莱默：这是一个很好的故事，是一个很好的家庭故事。

Lenny is crying right now.

莱尼现在在哭。

He's just in tears remembering the movie CODA.

他只是想起电影《CODA》就泪流满面。

Lenny is going to spend the rest of the day weeping.

莱尼将在这一天剩下的时间里哭泣。

You won't get a newsletter next week.

下周你将不会收到新闻通讯。

It's just because he is rewatching CODA.

只是因为他正在重看《CODA》。

Lenny: It's going to be an emotional newsletter.

莱尼：这将是一份情感通讯。

Speaking of that, what's a favorite interview question that you like to ask?

说到这里，你最喜欢问的面试问题是什么？

Emily Kramer: Oh, there's so many interview questions that I like to ask.

Emily Kramer：哦，我喜欢问很多面试问题。

I mean, one of the basic interview questions in marketing that I like to ask is just the company that you're working on, what's the product?

我的意思是，我喜欢问的营销基本面试问题之一就是你正在工作的公司，产品是什么？

Why is it better?

为什么更好？

Who is it for?

它是给谁用的？

It's the most basic positioning question you can ask, but a lot of people can't answer it.

这是你可以问的最基本的定位问题，但很多人都无法回答。

So that's a good one.

所以这是一件好事。

And also if you're writing positioning at your company or if you're on marketing your company and you can't tell me what the product is, why it's better, who it's for, go figure that out if that's what the home page of your website should cover.

另外，如果您正在为您的公司撰写定位，或者您正在营销您的公司，而您无法告诉我该产品是什么，为什么它更好，它是为谁而设计的，那么请弄清楚这是否是您网站主页应该涵盖的内容。

In fact, the hero of your website and so many don't.

事实上，你的网站的英雄和很多人都没有。

Emily Kramer: A fun question that I like to ask.

Emily Kramer：我喜欢问一个有趣的问题。

It's a mix of getting to know you but also seeing how you communicate is describe something, and I didn't come up with this question, but I really like it.

这是了解你的过程，也是了解你如何沟通的过程，这就是描述某件事，我没有提出这个问题，但我真的很喜欢它。

Describe something complicated that you know well that others don't and describe it as simply as you can.

描述一些你很了解而其他人不知道的复杂事物，并尽可能简单地描述它。

And it's just interesting to hear what people pick.

听听人们的选择很有趣。

Most people pick things related to cooking which is really strange.

大多数人都会选择与烹饪相关的东西，这真的很奇怪。

I ask that question every interview for a long time just as the final question because you learn something about people.

很长一段时间，我每次面试都会问这个问题，就像最后一个问题一样，因为你可以了解一些关于人的事情。

And so many people pick cooking.

所以很多人都会选择做饭。

Emily Kramer: And I'm like, that's a good choice because I find cooking really complicated and I have no idea how to do it.

艾米丽·克莱默：我想，这是一个不错的选择，因为我发现烹饪真的很复杂，而且我不知道该怎么做。

So describe these various aspects of cooking to me.

向我描述一下烹饪的各个方面。

But that's always a fun one.

但这总是一件有趣的事情。

There's other questions that I always ask like walk me through a project you've done recently from start to finish and I'm listening for things can you tell me the goal?

我总是问其他问题，比如引导我从头到尾完成你最近完成的一个项目，我正在倾听一些事情，你能告诉我目标吗？

And can you tell the audience?

你能告诉观众吗？

But those are more boring, so I'll stop there.

但这些比较无聊，所以我就到此为止。

Emily Kramer: What's your favorite interview question Lenny?

艾米丽·克莱默：莱尼，你最喜欢的面试问题是什么？

Lenny: Oh no, I'm asking you questions here.

莱尼：哦不，我是在问你问题。

Emily Kramer: I know I wanted to flip the lightning round back on you.

艾米丽·克莱默：我知道我想把闪电转回到你身上。

Have you ever done your own lightning round?

你曾经自己完成过闪电回合吗？

Lenny: I haven't but I'll answer the question I met away.

莱尼：我没有，但我会回答我遇到的问题。

I'm finding the most popular answer to this question is that second one you just gave which is teach me something I don't know.

我发现这个问题最受欢迎的答案是你刚刚给出的第二个答案，它教了我一些我不知道的东西。

That comes up a lot in these answers.

这些答案中经常出现这一点。

Emily Kramer: Yeah.

艾米丽·克莱默：是的。

Teach me something I don't know.

教我一些我不知道的事情。

This is a variation on teach me something I don't know.

这是教我一些我不知道的事情的变体。

Because it's really about how simply can you communicate it.

因为这实际上关系到你如何简单地传达它。

Teach me something you don't know comes across as a little, I don't want to say pretentious, but it's like it's overwhelming.

教我一些你不会的东西给人的感觉是有点，我不想说自命不凡，但它就像是压倒性的。

Lenny: Well, I'll add a little flavor to it as they often say, you have a minute to explain something I don't know, something interesting to you.

莱尼：嗯，我会添加一点味道，就像他们常说的那样，你有一分钟​​的时间来解释一些我不知道的事情，一些你感兴趣的事情。

And so it kind of forces you to be simple about it.

所以它迫使你变得简单。

But I like the framing.

但我喜欢这个框架。

Emily Kramer: Yeah.

艾米丽·克莱默：是的。

It's a complicated framing.

这是一个复杂的框架。

And then sometimes what I'll do, especially if they're going to be someone that's going to be writing is I'll be like, okay, make it simpler.

有时我会做的事情，特别是如果他们将成为要写作的人，我会说，好吧，让它变得更简单。

And then I'll have them describe it to me again simpler.

然后我会让他们再次简单地向我描述它。

And I've probably done that in one interview, I've probably done it four times.

我可能在一次采访中这样做过，我可能已经这样做过四次了。

Which that part isn't super fun but it depends on the person.

这部分不是很有趣，但这取决于人。

If I think they can handle kind of joking around, make it simpler.

如果我认为他们可以处理开玩笑，那就让它变得更简单。

And if I think the topic's interesting, of course, and I'll like want to hear about something so over and over again.

当然，如果我认为这个话题很有趣，我就会想一遍又一遍地听到一些东西。

Emily Kramer: Yeah, I mean it's good to have interview questions that maybe teach you something about how they're going to do at the job, but also learn something about the person.

艾米丽·克莱默：是的，我的意思是，面试时提出一些问题是很好的，这些问题可能会告诉你一些关于他们将如何工作的信息，但也能了解一些关于这个人的信息。

And in a way that's not just tell me about yourself.

在某种程度上，这不仅仅是告诉我你自己。

Lenny: Final question, who else in the industry do you most respect as a thought leader?

Lenny：最后一个问题，作为思想领袖，您在行业中最尊敬的还有谁？

Emily Kramer: The word thought leader here is getting me down but I'll answer the first part of your question.

艾米莉·克莱默：思想领袖这个词让我很沮丧，但我会回答你问题的第一部分。

As marketers, we love to paint the phrase thought leader.

作为营销人员，我们喜欢描绘“思想领袖”这个词。

Some of the other marketer that I think are doing interesting things beyond just marketing is Ashley Meyer is someone who is a marketer who also has a fund now.

我认为除了营销之外，其他一些营销人员正在做一些有趣的事情，阿什利·迈耶（Ashley Meyer）是一名营销人员，现在也拥有一只基金。

She was comms at Glossier as well as she used to be at Box and things like that.

她在 Glossier 担任通讯员，也曾在 Box 之类的公司担任通讯员。

And is big on Twitter, but she's just someone else who is a marketer in return fund manager.

她在推特上很受欢迎，但她只是一个营销人员和回报基金经理。

So it's always nice to have other people like that to kind of compare notes with.

因此，与这样的人进行交流总是很高兴。

Emily Kramer: I think that Arielle Jackson from First Round is an amazing support system to founders and marketers at startup.

Emily Kramer：我认为来自 First Round 的 Arielle Jackson 对于初创公司的创始人和营销人员来说是一个令人惊叹的支持系统。

So if you're a first round company, she's a great resource and I think she's just a great resource in general.

因此，如果你是第一轮公司，她是一个很好的资源，我认为她总体上来说是一个很好的资源。

I also think Kevin Lee, the head of Marketing and Oyster, he's an LPN in our fund, he puts out a newsletter and has a full-time job growing a rapidly growing marketing team.

我还认为凯文·李（Kevin Lee）是营销和 Oyster 的负责人，他是我们基金的 LPN，他发布时事通讯，并且有一份全职工作，负责培养快速增长的营销团队。

So I have a lot of respect.

所以我非常尊重。

He's coming to speak to the people in a course that I'm running next week.

他将在我下周举办的课程中向人们发表演讲。

So he's top of mind.

所以他才是最重要的。

But those are some people that come to mind.

但这些是我想到的一些人。

Emily Kramer: But I mean, I have a lot of marketers that I admire.

艾米丽·克莱默：但我的意思是，我有很多我钦佩的营销人员。

I'm lucky that in our fund we have over 50 marketers so I have a pretty big arsenal of people I can go to just from that as well.

我很幸运，我们的基金有超过 50 名营销人员，所以我也可以从这些人那里找到相当多的人。

So I lean on the people there for a lot of different things.

所以我在很多不同的事情上都依赖那里的人。

Lenny: And you're probably going to be raising another fund, and I know you try to raise from marketers and so is that true?

莱尼：你可能会筹集另一支基金，我知道你试图从营销人员那里筹集资金，这是真的吗？

Anything you want to add there?

您想在那里添加什么吗？

Emily Kramer: If you're a marketer, we have a fund and we allow for lower minimums for marketers.

Emily Kramer：如果您是营销人员，我们有一笔基金，并且我们为营销人员提供较低的最低限额。

One of my goals is I don't think there are enough marketers who are investors or know how to get into investing.

我的目标之一是，我认为没有足够多的营销人员是投资者或知道如何进行投资。

And I know how much founders need marketing help, so love to encourage more people to get involved in investing and can be the on-ramp for that through our fund.

我知道创始人有多少需要营销帮助，所以喜欢鼓励更多的人参与投资，并可以通过我们的基金成为投资的入口。

So if you're interested in that at all, or a marketer who's interested in angel investing, I'm always happy to have that conversation with you.

因此，如果您对此感兴趣，或者是对天使投资感兴趣的营销人员，我总是很高兴与您进行对话。

Lenny: Emily, this was everything I was hoping it would be and more.

莱尼：艾米丽，这就是我所希望的一切，甚至更多。

I feel like we've helped a lot of founders understand the fog of marketing and I think we are probably going to help a lot of PMs and marketing people work together a lot more effectively.

我觉得我们已经帮助很多创始人了解了营销的迷雾，我认为我们可能会帮助很多产品经理和营销人员更有效地合作。

Emily Kramer: Hopefully.

艾米丽·克莱默：希望如此。

The fog of marketing, marketing is the San Francisco of functions in a company.

营销的迷雾，营销是公司职能的旧金山。

Lenny: Two final questions.

莱尼：最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more?

如果人们想要联系、了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Emily Kramer: Yeah, I am on Twitter and LinkedIn just Emily Kramer, my name, pretty simple.

Emily Kramer：是的，我在 Twitter 和 LinkedIn 上只是 Emily Kramer，我的名字，非常简单。

You can find links to the courses that I run, to the newsletter, to our job board, to talking to me about angel investing as a marketer on our website mkt1.co. And that should set you off in the right direction.

您可以在我们的网站 mkt1.co 上找到我开设的课程、时事通讯、工作委员会以及作为营销人员与我谈论天使投资的链接。这应该会让你朝着正确的方向前进。

And we have lots of things going on to help marketers build out their teams and help founders build out their marketing teams.

我们正在做很多事情来帮助营销人员建立他们的团队并帮助创始人建立他们的营销团队。

So if that's you and you're in a situation where you're mostly at a B2B company trying to build out marketing, get in touch with me through my website or through Twitter.

因此，如果您就是这样，而且您主要在一家 B2B 公司工作，试图开展营销活动，请通过我的网站或 Twitter 与我联系。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Emily, thank you for being here.

艾米丽，谢谢你来到这里。

Emily Kramer: Thanks for having me.

艾米丽·克莱默：谢谢你邀请我。

This was really fun and I'm looking forward to also having that guest newsletter come out with you and just getting Lenny Lennyaised.

这真的很有趣，我也很期待与您一起发布客座时事通讯，并让 Lenny Lennyaized。

It's a weird phrase, I won't use that again.

这是一个奇怪的短语，我不会再使用它。

Emily Kramer: We're going to move on.

艾米丽·克莱默：我们要继续前进。

All right.

好的。

Thanks Lenny.

谢谢莱尼。

Lenny: Okay, thanks Emily.

莱尼：好的，谢谢艾米丽。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenny'spodcast.com.

您可以在 lenny'spodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。