Rethinking SEO in the age of AI | Eli Schwartz (SEO advisor, author)
Lenny Rachitsky: You've noticed a significant shift in how SEO works with the rise of AI answers being integrated into search results.
Lenny Rachitsky：您已经注意到，随着人工智能答案集成到搜索结果中的兴起，SEO 的工作方式发生了重大转变。
Eli Schwartz: Transparently, I thought this was going to be an apocalypse.
Eli Schwartz：显然，我认为这将是一场世界末日。
Up until AI Overviews, whoever won on that long form piece of content would get that first click.
在人工智能概述之前，无论谁赢得了长篇内容，都将获得第一次点击。
But now that doesn't exist anymore.
但现在这种情况已经不存在了。
Lenny Rachitsky: What should people do to be successful in this new paradigm?
Lenny Rachitsky：人们应该怎样做才能在这个新范式中取得成功？
Eli Schwartz: Think of SEO as a product.
Eli Schwartz：将 SEO 视为一种产品。
The product managers are the people that should be thinking about this SEO question because it's a product question.
产品经理是应该考虑这个 SEO 问题的人，因为这是一个产品问题。
Product people need to think about how do we position this to the user that is not going to find out about this from a social channel, that's not going to be attracted by an ad?
产品人员需要考虑如何将其定位给不会从社交渠道了解这一点、不会被广告吸引的用户？
This is a user that's doing their own self-discovery journey.
这是一个正在进行自我发现之旅的用户。
If you can't answer the question about what is it that someone's going to do a search on, then don't do SEO.
如果您无法回答某人要搜索什么的问题，那么就不要进行搜索引擎优化。
Lenny Rachitsky: To a lot of people, SEO is kind of this dark art.
Lenny Rachitsky：对于很多人来说，SEO 是一种黑暗艺术。
Eli Schwartz: It is not a dark art.
Eli Schwartz：这不是黑暗艺术。
It is simple.
这很简单。
I think step one is the step that almost everyone misses on SEO, which is.
我认为第一步是几乎每个人在 SEO 上都错过的一步。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Eli Schwartz.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Eli Schwartz。
Eli is a growth advisor specializing in SEO and has helped companies like Quora, Coinbase, Tinder, LinkedIn, WordPress, and Zapier develop and execute their SEO strategies.
Eli 是一位专门从事 SEO 的增长顾问，曾帮助 Quora、Coinbase、Tinder、LinkedIn、WordPress 和 Zapier 等公司制定和执行他们的 SEO 策略。
He's also the author of Product-Led SEO and has a very refreshing take on how to think about SEO and win at SEO.
他也是《Product-Led SEO》一书的作者，对于如何思考 SEO 和如何赢得 SEO 有着令人耳目一新的看法。
Recently, he's been spending a lot of his time analyzing how SEO changes with the rise of LLM chatbots, Google giving you the answers straight in the search results, and also how to utilize AI in your SEO strategy.
最近，他花了很多时间分析 SEO 如何随着 LLM 聊天机器人的兴起而变化，谷歌直接在搜索结果中给你答案，以及如何在 SEO 策略中利用人工智能。
Lenny Rachitsky: In this episode, we dive deep into everything that you need to know to be successful in this new AI paradigm.
Lenny Rachitsky：在这一集中，我们将深入探讨在这个新的人工智能范式中取得成功所需了解的一切。
As Eli shares in the conversation, Google is just now rolling out changes to how search works and is greatly increasing how many searches include an AI-generated answer at the top of the search results.
正如 Eli 在谈话中分享的那样，谷歌刚刚推出了搜索工作方式的改变，并大大增加了在搜索结果顶部包含人工智能生成答案的搜索数量。
So things are going to start shifting under our feed pretty quickly.
因此，在我们的反馈下，事情将很快开始发生变化。
If you're at all thinking about SEO, working on SEO, or are just curious about how search is evolving, this episode is for you.
如果您正在考虑 SEO、致力于 SEO，或者只是对搜索如何发展感到好奇，那么本集适合您。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you Eli Schwartz.
接下来，我为您带来伊莱·施瓦茨 (Eli Schwartz)。
Eli, thank you so much for being here.
伊莱，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Eli Schwartz: It's a real honor to be here.
Eli Schwartz：很荣幸来到这里。
You've had some amazing guests, and I'm honored to be counted as one of them.
你们接待了一些很棒的客人，我很荣幸能成为其中之一。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's completely my honor.
Lenny Rachitsky：这完全是我的荣幸。
You've been working on SEO for a long time.
您已经从事 SEO 很长时间了。
You've been helping companies figure out how to win at SEO for a long time, over a decade.
十多年来，您一直在帮助公司弄清楚如何在 SEO 上获胜。
And we were chatting about what's happening in SEO, and you told me that you've noticed a significant shift in how SEO works with the rise of LLMs, with the rise of AI answers being integrated into search results.
我们正在讨论 SEO 中正在发生的事情，你告诉我，随着法学硕士的兴起，随着人工智能答案被集成到搜索结果中，SEO 的工作方式发生了重大转变。
Lenny Rachitsky: And so I thought it'd be awesome just to spend an entire episode talking about what people need to know about what's changing in SEO and how to be successful in this new paradigm of SEO with LLMs and AI being prevalent.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我认为花一整集的时间来讨论人们需要了解 SEO 的变化以及如何在法学硕士和人工智能盛行的这种新的 SEO 范式中取得成功就很棒了。
How does that sound to you?
您觉得怎么样？
Eli Schwartz: That's an awesome idea.
Eli Schwartz：这是一个很棒的主意。
I really like what's happening with AI in general for SEO because it's causing everyone that cares about SEO traffic, whether that's a PM or that's a CMO or that's a CEO, to really be forced into pivoting their thinking about what SEO traffic means because the tactics around SEO haven't really changed.
我真的很喜欢人工智能在 SEO 方面所发生的事情，因为它导致每个关心 SEO 流量的人，无论是 PM、CMO 还是 CEO，都被迫转变他们对 SEO 流量意味着什么的思考，因为围绕 SEO 的策略并没有真正改变。
It's always been the exact same thing.
一直都是一模一样的事情。
Eli Schwartz: My last full-time job was out at SurveyMonkey, and I was moonlighting on the side.
Eli Schwartz：我最后一份全职工作是在 SurveyMonkey，当时我兼职。
And I was introduced to a CEO of a big company and they were asking me about my approach to SEO.
我被介绍给一家大公司的首席执行官，他们向我询问我的 SEO 方法。
And I wanted to close it.
我想关闭它。
I wanted to get this consulting engagement.
我想获得这个咨询服务。
And the CEO says to me, "So essentially what you're telling me is I need to find my keywords, put that into content, and then build some links.
首席执行官对我说：“所以本质上你告诉我的是我需要找到我的关键词，将其放入内容中，然后建立一些链接。
Is there anything else you're going to do for me?
你还有什么要为我做的吗？
Why should I pay you?"
我为什么要付钱给你？”
Eli Schwartz: And it stunned me into silence because essentially that is and was SEO, and then that forced me to really pivot my thinking around what SEO might be.
Eli Schwartz：这让我陷入了沉默，因为本质上这就是 SEO，然后这迫使我真正围绕 SEO 思考什么。
And I pivoted my thinking and I've worked with many companies around how they should think about SEO and what SEO traffic should mean, but others have not because those tactics did work.
我改变了我的想法，并且与许多公司合作，围绕他们应该如何看待 SEO 以及 SEO 流量应该意味着什么，但其他公司却没有这样做，因为这些策略确实有效。
And LLMs and AI in general is forcing people to think again, how should SEO work?
法学硕士和人工智能总体上正在迫使人们重新思考，SEO 应该如何运作？
How should I be driving business from the search channel?
我应该如何通过搜索渠道推动业务？
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Pendo, the only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Pendo 为您带来，Pendo 是唯一适用于任何类型应用程序的一体化产品体验平台。
Tired of bouncing around multiple tools to uncover what's really happening inside your product?
厌倦了使用多种工具来揭示产品内部到底发生了什么？
With all the tools you need in one simple-to-use platform, Pendo makes it easy to answer critical questions about how users are engaging with your product and then turn those insights into action.
通过在一个简单易用的平台中提供您所需的所有工具，Pendo 可以轻松回答有关用户如何与您的产品互动的关键问题，然后将这些见解转化为行动。
Also, you can get your users to do what you actually want them to do.
此外，您还可以让用户做您真正希望他们做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: First, Pendo is built around product analytics, seeing what your users are actually doing in your apps so that you can optimize their experience.
Lenny Rachitsky：首先，Pendo 是围绕产品分析构建的，可以了解用户在应用程序中实际执行的操作，以便您可以优化他们的体验。
Next, Pendo lets you deploy in-app guides that lead users through the actions that matter most.
接下来，Pendo 允许您部署应用内指南，引导用户完成最重要的操作。
Then, Pendo integrates user feedback so that you can capture and analyze what people actually want.
然后，Pendo 集成用户反馈，以便您可以捕获和分析人们真正想要的东西。
And the new thing in Pendo, session replays, a very cool way to visualize user sessions.
Pendo 中的新功能是会话重播，这是一种非常酷的可视化用户会话的方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm not surprised at all that over 10,000 companies use it today.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天有超过 10,000 家公司使用它，我对此并不感到惊讶。
Visit pendo.io/lenny to create your free Pendo account today and start building better experiences across every corner of your product.
立即访问 pendo.io/lenny 创建免费 Pendo 帐户，并开始在产品的各个角落打造更好的体验。
P.S.
附：
You want to take your product-led know-how a step further?
您想进一步提升以产品为主导的专业知识吗？
Check out Pendo's lineup of free certification courses led by top product experts and designed to help you grow and advance in your career.
查看 Pendo 的一系列免费认证课程，这些课程由顶级产品专家主导，旨在帮助您在职业生涯中成长和进步。
Learn more and experience the power of the Pendo platform today at pendo.io/lenny.
立即访问 pendo.io/lenny 了解更多信息并体验 Pendo 平台的强大功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Brave Search.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Brave Search 为您带来。
Brave Search is the private independent search engine that doesn't bias or sensor results.
Brave Search 是私人独立搜索引擎，不会偏见或传感器结果。
Brave Search and its answers with AI feature are for free to all users on desktop and mobile devices.
Brave Search 及其具有 AI 功能的答案免费向桌面和移动设备上的所有用户开放。
With Brave Search, you get real answers faster served from their own independent index of the web.
通过 Brave Search，您可以从他们自己的独立网络索引中更快地获得真正的答案。
Their AI search engine can give lightning fast, incredibly accurate results for almost any question.
他们的人工智能搜索引擎可以为几乎任何问题提供闪电般快速、极其准确的结果。
But Brave isn't just AI answers.
但 Brave 不仅仅是人工智能的答案。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's also a powerful traditional search engine with real innovations versus big tech options.
Lenny Rachitsky：它也是一个强大的传统搜索引擎，具有真正的创新，而不是大型技术选项。
It fights bias and SEO spam.
它对抗偏见和 SEO 垃圾邮件。
It brings a cleaner results page with fewer ads, Reddit threads in the search engine results page, powerful local results, and even community- driven ranking options.
它带来了更干净的结果页面、更少的广告、搜索引擎结果页面中的 Reddit 线程、强大的本地结果，甚至是社区驱动的排名选项。
Tired of big tech's same old list of links?
厌倦了大型科技公司相同的旧链接列表？
It's time to try Brave Search.
是时候尝试勇敢搜索了。
Visit brave.com/lenny to get started.
请访问brave.com/lenny 开始。
That's brave.com/lenny.
那是brave.com/lenny。
So just to set a little foundation, talk about just what is it that's changing in search and in SEO with the rise of AI answers and LLMs.
因此，为了奠定一点基础，谈谈随着人工智能答案和法学硕士的兴起，搜索和搜索引擎优化发生了什么变化。
Eli Schwartz: So essentially Google and other tech companies had their hand forced by OpenAI and ChatGPT.
Eli Schwartz：所以本质上 Google 和其他科技公司都是被 OpenAI 和 ChatGPT 强迫的。
Google claims to have invented the concept of LLMs and they may or may not have, and some of the early OpenAI employees were Google employees.
谷歌声称发明了法学硕士的概念，他们可能有也可能没有，而且一些早期的 OpenAI 员工就是谷歌员工。
But ChatGPT came on the scene at the end of 2022 with this ability to ask any question and then get a written out answer.
但 ChatGPT 在 2022 年底出现，能够提出任何问题，然后获得书面答案。
And suddenly people are like, well, I don't need a Google and click all these results.
突然间，人们会说，好吧，我不需要谷歌并点击所有这些结果。
Eli Schwartz: So there started this conversation of you don't need Google anymore.
Eli Schwartz：所以就开始了你不再需要谷歌的对话。
Google is ending.
谷歌即将结束。
Even more than that, you don't need SEO.
更重要的是，您不需要搜索引擎优化。
You don't need to optimize anything because the entire world will just be given to you.
你不需要优化任何东西，因为整个世界都会给你。
We'll dig into that.
我们将深入探讨这一点。
I don't think that's at all correct, and I don't think anyone, whether you're doing SEO as your full-time job or whether you're receiving SEO traffic as a part of one of your primary marketing channels, I don't think anybody has to worry about that.
我不认为这是完全正确的，我不认为任何人，无论你是将 SEO 作为你的全职工作，还是将 SEO 流量作为你主要营销渠道之一的一部分，我认为任何人都不必担心这一点。
Eli Schwartz: However, Google was worried about it, and I think one of Google's primary stakeholders is really Wall Street.
Eli Schwartz：然而，谷歌对此感到担忧，我认为谷歌的主要利益相关者之一确实是华尔街。
So if Wall Street suddenly thinks that Google is a has-been company and they're not interesting anymore and they don't want to maintain investments in them, their stock price goes down.
因此，如果华尔街突然认为谷歌是一家过时的公司，他们不再感兴趣，并且不想继续对其进行投资，那么他们的股价就会下跌。
And that hurts Google's ability to recruit employees.
这损害了谷歌招聘员工的能力。
It hurts Google's ability to raise money and invest in all the interesting stuff they do.
这损害了谷歌筹集资金和投资于他们所做的所有有趣事情的能力。
Eli Schwartz: So Google has to satisfy the curiosity and the interests of the general world and general investor by saying, "Oh, that OpenAI thing, we can do it too.
Eli Schwartz：因此，谷歌必须通过说：“哦，OpenAI 的事情，我们也能做到，来满足广大世界和广大投资者的好奇心和利益。
That's not that big of a deal." So then Google responded, badly, of course, first, by launching what was then Bard.
这没什么大不了的。”于是，谷歌的反应当然很糟糕，首先推出了当时的 Bard。
So they said, "ChatGPT, look, we've got our own version," and they did a public demo.
所以他们说，“ChatGPT，看，我们有了自己的版本”，然后他们做了一个公开演示。
It didn't work out well at all and their stock price actually went down.
结果一点也不好，他们的股价实际上下跌了。
Eli Schwartz: And then they fixed it and then their stock price went up.
Eli Schwartz：然后他们解决了这个问题，然后他们的股价就上涨了。
But they also had to have an answer to this concept of, is search dying?
但他们也必须对这个概念有一个答案：搜索正在消亡吗？
Does anyone need to search anymore when the entire world can just be given to you?
当整个世界都给你的时候，还有人需要去寻找吗？
So they launched what at the time they called SGE, Search Generative Experience, which is essentially ChatGPT in a search result.
因此，他们推出了当时称为 SGE（搜索生成体验）的产品，本质上是搜索结果中的 ChatGPT。
So they launched that, but they launched it as a beta.
所以他们推出了它，但他们将其作为测试版推出。
Eli Schwartz: And there were huge issues with what they were doing there because there's monetization issues.
Eli Schwartz：他们在那里所做的事情存在很大的问题，因为存在货币化问题。
Everything they do comes from ads.
他们所做的一切都来自广告。
The majority of their revenue comes from ads.
他们的大部分收入来自广告。
So if you're going to show this AI answer on a search result, then you also can't have ads.
因此，如果您要在搜索结果上显示此人工智能答案，那么您也不能有广告。
You need to go all in on one of them.
你需要全力以赴地对待其中之一。
That was one issue which they actually have not solved yet.
这是他们实际上还没有解决的一个问题。
Another issue they had was liability.
他们遇到的另一个问题是责任。
Eli Schwartz: So if they have a generative response that tells you to do something awful, like I think there was one where it may or may not have been fake, a lot of people made some fake ones, that told you to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge.
Eli Schwartz：所以，如果他们有一个生成反应，告诉你做一些可怕的事情，就像我认为有一个可能是假的，也可能不是，很多人做了一些假的，告诉你从金门大桥跳下去。
Are there liability concerns?
是否存在责任问题？
Because Google now is the publisher.
因为谷歌现在是发布者。
They're not a search engine that told you how to find out the answer to that.
它们不是告诉您如何找到答案的搜索引擎。
Eli Schwartz: They told you to do it themselves.
Eli Schwartz：他们告诉你要自己做。
And the third issue there, which is another liability concern, is it plagiarism?
第三个问题，也是另一个责任问题，是抄袭吗？
So those are the things that they worried about.
所以这些就是他们担心的事情。
So they took about a year to test this thing, which was fascinating because we're tech people and most of the listeners are tech people.
所以他们花了大约一年的时间来测试这个东西，这很有趣，因为我们是技术人员，而且大多数听众都是技术人员。
Google is very much a launch fast kind of company.
谷歌在很大程度上是一家推出速度快的公司。
They reveal something and then it sort of rolls out very, very quickly.
他们揭示了一些东西，然后它就会非常非常快地推出。
Eli Schwartz: They're not the kind of company that says we're going to launch something and then they take a year to do it.
Eli Schwartz：他们不是那种说我们要推出某样东西然后他们花了一年时间来做的公司。
So AI Overviews, what was then called Search Generative Experience, launched at Google I/O this past year, in May of this past year, and they renamed it to AI Overviews.
因此，AI Overviews（当时称为“搜索生成体验”）在去年 5 月的 Google I/O 大会上推出，他们将其更名为 AI Overviews。
And it's that.
就是这样。
It's essentially ChatGPT in a search assault.
它本质上是 ChatGPT 的搜索攻击。
They launched it to great fanfare.
他们大张旗鼓地推出了它。
Eli Schwartz: Of course, it was live right away.
Eli Schwartz：当然，它马上就上线了。
They said it was only going to be logged in users only in the US.
他们表示，只有美国用户才能登录。
Obviously they always have concerns about launching things in Europe, because Europe's a little bit more litigious than the US.
显然，他们总是担心在欧洲推出产品，因为欧洲比美国更爱打官司。
And once they launched it, suddenly they started getting these screenshots of Google told me to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge, Google told me to put glue on my pizza, which, of course, Google didn't do that.
一旦他们推出了它，突然他们开始收到谷歌告诉我从金门大桥跳下的这些屏幕截图，谷歌告诉我在我的披萨上涂上胶水，当然，谷歌没有这样做。
Eli Schwartz: They just crawled things from around the web.
Eli Schwartz：他们只是从网络上抓取东西。
I'm surprised that Google didn't predict that because the exact same thing happened with ChatGPT and Google is much bigger and a much more interesting target for people that want to share those things in social media.
我很惊讶 Google 没有预测到这一点，因为 ChatGPT 也发生了同样的事情，而且对于那些想要在社交媒体上分享这些内容的人来说，Google 规模更大，也是更有趣的目标。
So Google launches it, and that was a little bit embarrassing, so they rolled it back somewhat.
所以谷歌推出了它，这有点尴尬，所以他们稍微回撤了它。
Eli Schwartz: But what's even more interesting is they've given up on this rollback.
Eli Schwartz：但更有趣的是他们已经放弃了这种回滚。
Or not given up, they've gone back into it and they've relaunched it, and now it's on so many more search results.
或者没有放弃，他们重新开始并重新启动它，现在它出现在更多的搜索结果中。
I'm seeing it on most of the search results that I see.
我在我看到的大多数搜索结果中都看到了它。
And on top of that, non-logged in users are seeing it, so in incognito users or users without any history with Google are seeing it, and they've just launched it in the UK.
最重要的是，未登录的用户可以看到它，因此隐身用户或没有任何谷歌历史的用户也可以看到它，而且他们刚刚在英国推出了它。
So this thing is coming and it's really going to be affecting search results.
所以这件事即将到来，它确实会影响搜索结果。
Lenny Rachitsky: To maybe help people understand why this may impact SEO, if it's not obvious, is it pushes results down.
Lenny Rachitsky：也许可以帮助人们理解为什么这可能会影响 SEO，如果它不明显的话，它是否会降低结果。
People get the answer right there.
人们在那里就得到了答案。
They don't have to click your links.
他们不必点击您的链接。
And then there's also the sponsored links at the top of the page that already are pushing you down.
然后页面顶部的赞助链接已经把你推下去了。
So basically your stuff is harder and harder to find, right?
所以基本上你的东西越来越难找到了，对吧？
Eli Schwartz: Actually, it's not that it's harder to find, your stuff becomes less relevant.
Eli Schwartz：实际上，并不是说它更难找到，而是你的东西变得不那么相关了。
And that's the part about SEO that I'm excited about.
这就是我感到兴奋的关于 SEO 的部分。
So SEO was exactly like that CEO said to me years ago, it's just about creating some content.
所以搜索引擎优化就像那位首席执行官几年前对我说的那样，它只是创造一些内容。
And then it's just this race to the top of getting your ranking results on that top keyword.
然后，这就是一场争夺顶级关键词排名结果的竞赛。
So years ago, I worked at a startup where we were in the automotive space and we wrote content about cars.
几年前，我在一家汽车领域的初创公司工作，我们撰写有关汽车的内容。
Eli Schwartz: And a word we liked to rank on was cars.
Eli Schwartz：我们喜欢排名的一个词是汽车。
The homepage was ranked for the word cars.
主页针对“汽车”一词进行了排名。
We bought tons of links, and we were just a cars website.
我们购买了大量的链接，而我们只是一个汽车网站。
Obviously that's not something anybody could expect to do now because you don't search like that.
显然，现在任何人都不会期望这样做，因为你不会那样搜索。
You don't search, "Oh, I need to buy a vehicle.
你不会搜索，“哦，我需要买一辆车。
I'm going to use the word cars and see what comes up," because cars means a lot of things.
我将使用汽车这个词，看看会发生什么，”因为汽车意味着很多东西。
Cars is a movie.
汽车是一部电影。
Cars is a kind of car you drive.
汽车是一种你驾驶的汽车。
Cars could be a go-kart.
汽车可以是卡丁车。
It could be a lot of things.
可能有很多事情。
Eli Schwartz: So no one's going to think about those search results.
Eli Schwartz：所以没有人会考虑这些搜索结果。
However, SEO is still geared towards those top of funnel, those big keywords that people cared the most about.
然而，SEO 仍然面向那些漏斗的顶部，即人们最关心的那些大关键字。
So now a lot of those keywords are going to be moving into these AI Overviews.
所以现在很多关键词将被纳入这些人工智能概述中。
I don't want to just focus on Google, although I think Google's going to own the entire search page forever, at least for a very long time.
我不想只关注谷歌，尽管我认为谷歌将永远拥有整个搜索页面，至少在很长一段时间内如此。
Eli Schwartz: But other engines, whether it's Perplexity or whether it's Claude or whether it's Meta, they all have this opportunity to give AI Overview type responses.
Eli Schwartz：但是其他引擎，无论是 Perplexity 还是 Claude 或者 Meta，它们都有机会给出 AI 概述类型的响应。
That I think, those top of funnel kind of queries, are a great fit for what's going to come out as an answer.
我认为，那些漏斗顶部类型的查询非常适合将要出现的答案。
So if you're looking to go on vacation and you want a beach vacation, you can ask a very explicit question about give me a beach vacation that is not in America, but is a two-hour flight from X airport.
因此，如果您想去度假并且想要去海滩度假，您可以问一个非常明确的问题，即给我一个不在美国但距离 X 机场两小时飞行的海滩度假。
Eli Schwartz: That's the kind of thing that you could do in a Google search, but would take you a very long time to do.
Eli Schwartz：这种事情你可以在谷歌搜索中完成，但会花费你很长时间。
And those are great answers from just getting a paragraph.
这些都是从一段话中得到的很好的答案。
And then from there, you move into the mid-funnel.
然后从那里开始，您进入漏斗中部。
So now you do this query and Google suggests to you that you should go to Cancun.
现在你执行这个查询，谷歌会建议你去坎昆。
Or sorry, not Google, but whatever that answer is suggests to you that you should go to Cancun.
或者抱歉，不是谷歌，但无论这个答案是什么，都建议你应该去坎昆。
And now you're in the mid-funnel and that's where SEO begins to matter.
现在你正处于漏斗的中间，这就是搜索引擎优化开始发挥作用的地方。
Eli Schwartz: So the reason why I think this disruption is so big is because the journey changes, the discovery changes.
Eli Schwartz：所以我认为这种颠覆如此之大的原因是因为旅程发生了变化，发现发生了变化。
So whereas before if you were a travel site and you were able to rank on best beach vacation within two hours of the United States, that's your ranking result.
因此，以前如果你是一个旅游网站，你能够对美国两小时内最佳海滩度假进行排名，这就是你的排名结果。
And then you have your long piece of content and you have your ads and you can monetize that.
然后你就有了长篇内容和广告，你可以通过它们获利。
Eli Schwartz: That all changes when you can still rank number one on that, but you're all the way at the bottom of the page.
Eli Schwartz：当你仍然可以排名第一，但你一直处于页面底部时，一切都会改变。
The AI answer, whoever that's from, whether it's again from ChatGPT or Google, tells you where to now start doing your deeper search.
人工智能的答案，无论来自谁，无论是来自 ChatGPT 还是 Google，都会告诉你现在从哪里开始进行更深入的搜索。
Lenny Rachitsky: So just to maybe mirror back what you're saying is the discovery step of search is going to be swallowed up by LLMs that give you direction.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以也许可以反映出你所说的是搜索的发现步骤将被为你提供方向的法学硕士所吞噬。
And then once you have a sense of what you want, then you go back to Google and that's where potentially the opportunity continues to remain.
一旦你意识到自己想要什么，你就会回到谷歌，那里可能会继续存在机会。
Eli Schwartz: Absolutely, and I think that's where things are good.
Eli Schwartz：当然，我认为这就是事情的好处。
That's where I'm excited by the user experience for search, because I don't think the user was best served by, I don't know, U.S. News or Forbes writing out where the best beach vacations are within two hours of the United States, with that piece of content that was written by a freelancer who's not a travel expert.
这就是我对搜索的用户体验感到兴奋的地方，因为我不认为美国新闻或福布斯为用户提供了最好的服务，我不知道《美国新闻》或《福布斯》写出了美国两小时内最好的海滩度假地点，而该内容是由非旅行专家的自由职业者撰写的。
Eli Schwartz: So now you're going to get that information also from not a travel expert.
Eli Schwartz：所以现在您也将从非旅行专家那里获得这些信息。
You're going to get an AI summarized answer, and that will give you more clues and more ideas to do a deeper research search.
你将得到人工智能总结的答案，这将为你提供更多线索和更多想法来进行更深入的研究搜索。
I think that's where the user's best served.
我认为这就是为用户提供最好服务的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, this is fascinating.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，这很有趣。
Let's definitely spend more time there so people understand exactly what that means.
我们一定要花更多时间在那里，以便人们确切地理解这意味着什么。
Before we get into that and what people should do to win here, what impact have you seen on SEO and search results and the space of SEO as these things have rolled out?
在我们讨论这个问题以及人们应该做什么才能在这里获胜之前，您看到这些东西的推出对 SEO 和搜索结果以及 SEO 空间产生了哪些影响？
Have you seen numbers of like, this is declining, this is growing?
您是否看到过这样的数字：这种情况正在下降，这种情况正在增长？
Eli Schwartz: Transparently, I thought this was going to be an apocalypse.
Eli Schwartz：显然，我认为这将是一场世界末日。
So I shared about a year ago that it's going to be an apocalypse.
所以大约一年前我就说过这将是一场世界末日。
We have not seen it yet, and a lot of people are declaring victory that there's no apocalypse because we have not seen it yet.
我们还没有看到它，很多人都宣布胜利，没有世界末日，因为我们还没有看到它。
However, this thing just launched in a way that I think it will start impacting traffic.
然而，这个东西刚刚推出，我认为它将开始影响流量。
Eli Schwartz: So prior to the last couple weeks, it was not available on logged out search.
Eli Schwartz：所以在过去几周之前，它在注销搜索中不可用。
It was only on logged in search.
它仅适用于登录搜索。
And even more than that, on that logged in search, Google had rolled it back significantly because of those embarrassing things that happened in May and June when they first launched it.
更重要的是，在登录搜索上，谷歌已经大幅回滚了它，因为他们在五月和六月首次推出它时发生了那些令人尴尬的事情。
They're only just now launching it broader.
他们现在才刚刚将其推广到更广泛的范围。
And I do think we're going to see impacts.
我确实认为我们将会看到影响。
Eli Schwartz: Of course, another challenge with pinpointing and impacts is they're rolling algorithm updates that are happening, which we'll also talk about, and that will mask what's happening.
Eli Schwartz：当然，精确定位和影响方面的另一个挑战是他们正在滚动正在发生的算法更新，我们也会讨论这一点，这将掩盖正在发生的事情。
Because if you've been hit by an algo update and suddenly you recover from the algo update, you'll see more traffic, but you might have seen more traffic but on a lower base because these AI Overviews are changing things.
因为如果你受到算法更新的影响，然后突然从算法更新中恢复，你会看到更多的流量，但你可能会看到更多的流量，但基数较低，因为这些人工智能概述正在改变事情。
Eli Schwartz: So I think if you take all those steps back and you look at this from a journey perspective, there's no way that it won't be impacting search.
Eli Schwartz：所以我认为，如果你退后一步，从旅程的角度来看这个问题，它不可能不影响搜索。
It's just going to be hard to find.
只是很难找到。
And there'll be certain examples where it is extremely prevalent, and there'll be others where it won't impact things at all.
在某些例子中它非常普遍，而在其他一些例子中它根本不会产生影响。
And I think the riding line is the journey.
我认为骑行路线就是旅程。
We're in the funnel that user is.
我们处于用户所在的漏斗中。
Eli Schwartz: So if you are WebMD and you're writing content about the human body, just generic content that has existed since medical journals were created, AI Overviews are going to be fantastic at giving you that answer.
Eli Schwartz：因此，如果您是 WebMD，并且您正在撰写有关人体的内容，只是自医学期刊创建以来就存在的通用内容，那么 AI 概述将非常适合为您提供答案。
You have a headache and you're just like, "Well, this headache's not going away.
你头痛，你会想，“嗯，头痛不会消失。
Should I take more Advil or should I take a nap?"
我应该服用更多 Advil 还是小睡一下？”
Eli Schwartz: And then you find that WebMD article and you get to page six and it tells you that 0.2% of people that have a headache actually have a brain tumor, and you don't need that anymore because Google can tell you you're good, you should take a nap and drink some more water.
Eli Schwartz：然后你发现 WebMD 的文章，翻到第六页，它告诉你 0.2% 的头痛患者实际上患有脑肿瘤，你不再需要它了，因为谷歌可以告诉你你很好，你应该小睡一下，多喝点水。
Eli Schwartz: WebMD was competing with Healthline and other, Cleveland Clinic and Dallas Clinic and all these other hospitals, and it's totally unnecessary to go and look at all these results and go through six pages of information about headaches.
Eli Schwartz：WebMD 正在与 Healthline 和其他医院、克利夫兰诊所和达拉斯诊所以及所有其他医院竞争，完全没有必要去查看所有这些结果并浏览六页有关头痛的信息。
So a site like that will be impacted by AI Overviews.
因此，像这样的网站将受到人工智能概述的影响。
An e-commerce site, maybe not.
电子商务网站，也许不是。
It depends where in the funnel that user is.
这取决于用户在漏斗中的位置。
Lenny Rachitsky: As you're talking, I was reminded of something that I forgot about with my own experience.
Lenny Rachitsky：当你说话的时候，我想起了一些我因自己的经历而忘记的事情。
I used to have a website called whenishanukkahthisyear.com, because it changes every year and it's just the date.
我以前有一个网站叫whenishanukkahthisyear.com，因为它每年都会变化，而且只是日期。
That was the whole website.
这就是整个网站。
It gives you the date of Hanukkah this year.
它为您提供今年光明节的日期。
And I put ads on there and made 10 bucks a year, and then Google came in and just gave you freaking answers right inside the search result.
我在那里投放广告，每年赚 10 美元，然后谷歌介入，在搜索结果中直接给你奇怪的答案。
So I've experienced this.
所以我经历过这个。
Eli Schwartz: So it's even more than that.
Eli Schwartz：所以事情还不止于此。
So what you are referencing is structured data.
所以你引用的是结构化数据。
So that's a very easy thing for Google to tell you when is Hanukkah in 150 years from now?
那么对于 Google 来说，告诉你 150 年后的光明节是什么时候是一件很容易的事情吗？
It's in a data set.
它在一个数据集中。
What's happening now is Google's taking this unstructured data from content and building it into structured data.
现在，谷歌正在从内容中获取这些非结构化数据，并将其构建为结构化数据。
So you could ask a question of what is the likelihood of a baby needing to go to the hospital because they're showing this sort of symptom.
因此，您可以问一个问题：婴儿出现这种症状而需要去医院的可能性有多大。
Eli Schwartz: And again, instead of reading all that content and making a decision, Google could take all that unstructured data, not just Google, again, ChatGPT or Claude can take all that unstructured data, and give you a statistic based on everything they've read.
Eli Schwartz：再说一遍，谷歌可以获取所有非结构化数据，而不仅仅是谷歌，而不是阅读所有内容并做出决定，ChatGPT 或 Claude 可以获取所有非结构化数据，并根据他们所阅读的所有内容为您提供统计数据。
And that's very helpful to users.
这对用户非常有帮助。
And I think, again, users benefit.
我再次认为，用户会受益。
Eli Schwartz: And then a user might find out there's another piece of information where I'd actually like to read a medical paper, or that now I'd like to Google and find the closest doctor to me who has certain hours.
Eli Schwartz：然后用户可能会发现还有另一条信息，我实际上想阅读医学论文，或者现在我想通过 Google 搜索并找到距离我最近且有固定时间的医生。
That's a Google search.
那是谷歌搜索。
That's not an LLM AI search.
这不是法学硕士人工智能搜索。
Lenny Rachitsky: And just to clarify, I didn't intend to say that that was AI oriented.
Lenny Rachitsky：澄清一下，我并不是想说那是面向人工智能的。
That happened a decade ago.
那是十年前的事了。
So yeah, I totally, totally agree.
所以是的，我完全、完全同意。
Eli Schwartz: Well, I just thought that was interesting to really drill into the difference between structured and unstructured, because unstructured is actually where Google is disrupting everything.
Eli Schwartz：嗯，我只是认为真正深入探讨结构化和非结构化之间的差异很有趣，因为非结构化实际上是谷歌颠覆一切的地方。
So this entire idea of SEO, again, up until 2022 was monetize unstructured data.
因此，直到 2022 年，SEO 的整个理念仍然是通过非结构化数据货币化。
Whoever wrote the longest piece of content on best beach hotels in Miami and then built the best links to it, they would win.
谁在迈阿密最好的海滩酒店上写了最长的内容，然后建立了最好的链接，谁就会获胜。
Eli Schwartz: They win whether it's ads or win whether it's hotel bookings.
Eli Schwartz：无论是广告还是酒店预订，他们都赢了。
Now, Google can start you off at the top of that and say, "These are the best beach hotels based on all the people that have written content," or actually Google's own unstructured data from the reviews and give you that.
现在，谷歌可以从最上面开始告诉你，“根据所有撰写内容的人的数据，这些是最好的海滩酒店”，或者实际上是谷歌自己的评论中的非结构化数据，然后给你这些数据。
And then you can say, "Okay, I'd like to go to this hotel, or I'd like to stay in this city."
然后你可以说，“好吧，我想去这家酒店，或者我想留在这个城市。”
Lenny Rachitsky: So help us understand even deeper this distinction between top of funnel and mid-funnel.
Lenny Rachitsky：帮助我们更深入地理解漏斗顶部和漏斗中部之间的区别。
So when people are maybe winning at one or the other, what does that look like?
那么，当人们可能在其中一种或另一种方面获胜时，那会是什么样子呢？
What are some examples of like, here's a top of funnel type of search that Google's going to eat and here's a mid-funnel experience that you can win that?
有哪些类似的例子，这是谷歌将要吃掉的漏斗顶部类型的搜索，这是你可以赢得的漏斗中部体验？
Eli Schwartz: So in general, SEO has always been more at the top of the funnel generally, because you're curious about something.
Eli Schwartz：所以总的来说，SEO 通常总是处于漏斗的顶部，因为你对某些东西感到好奇。
So let's say you're looking for a new software.
假设您正在寻找一个新软件。
You're looking for new podcasting software.
您正在寻找新的播客软件。
So you search for top podcast tools, and you get back a list on let's say G2.
因此，您搜索顶级播客工具，然后您会得到一个列表，比如说 G2。
G2 and all the sites like G2, like the Gartner sites like Capterra, all going to be massively disrupted.
G2 和所有像 G2 这样的网站，像 Capterra 这样的 Gartner 网站，都将受到大规模破坏。
So you would get back a list from G2, which would give you out all the software.
所以你会从 G2 得到一个列表，它会给你所有的软件。
Eli Schwartz: And you would look at some and it would say, "This one's geared towards enterprise.
Eli Schwartz：你会看到一些，它会说，“这个是面向企业的。
This one's geared towards small podcasters.
这是针对小型播客的。
This one's free," and then now you've narrowed down your list to these three tools.
这个是免费的”，然后现在您已将列表范围缩小到这三个工具。
And that's when you start doing those searches.
那就是你开始进行这些搜索的时候。
Now you're mid-funnel.
现在你正处于漏斗中间。
Now let's say you've chosen Riverside and you've gotten enough information from those other searches.
现在，假设您选择了 Riverside，并且您已从其他搜索中获得了足够的信息。
Now you start searching Riverside price, Riverside capacity, Riverside bandwidth.
现在您开始搜索Riverside价格、Riverside容量、Riverside带宽。
Eli Schwartz: That's bottom of funnel, and that's where you'll now go buy Riverside.
Eli Schwartz：这是漏斗的底部，这就是你现在要购买 Riverside 的地方。
However, at the top, you were doing top podcast tools.
然而，在顶部，您正在开发顶级播客工具。
So again, up until AI Overviews, up until this entire concept of LLM, whoever won on that long form piece of content would get that first click.
再说一次，直到人工智能概述，直到法学硕士的整个概念，无论谁赢得了长篇内容，都将获得第一次点击。
But now that doesn't exist anymore.
但现在这种情况已经不存在了。
You just go to Google and Google tells you, "These are the tools.
你只要去谷歌，谷歌就会告诉你，“这些就是工具。
Oh, you're looking for a new CRM?
哦，您正在寻找新的 CRM 吗？
This is what a CRM is.
这就是 CRM。
You want to know, do you need a CRM or do you just need a calendar?"
您想知道，您需要 CRM 还是只需要日历？”
Eli Schwartz: Look at that and Google will just tell you in a paragraph, and now you've redirected your search somewhere else into middle of the funnel.
Eli Schwartz：看看这个，谷歌只会在一个段落中告诉你，现在你已经将你的搜索重定向到漏斗中间的其他地方。
So I think that's where SEO always should have been because that's where conversions could potentially happen.
所以我认为这就是搜索引擎优化应该一直存在的地方，因为那是可能发生转化的地方。
However, SEO never was there before because the way most SEO measures its performance and its success is rankings.
然而，SEO 以前从未出现过，因为大多数 SEO 衡量其性能和成功的方式是排名。
So they would say, "Well, it doesn't really matter if we convert on the word CRM.
所以他们会说：“好吧，如果我们转换成 CRM 这个词，其实并不重要。
But look, we're number one, so we're winning."
但是看，我们是第一，所以我们正在赢。”
Lenny Rachitsky: First of all, as a user, this sounds great.
Lenny Rachitsky：首先，作为一名用户，这听起来很棒。
I'm so tired of just all search results just being a bunch of SEO pages, just with a bunch of BS answers.
我厌倦了所有的搜索结果都是一堆 SEO 页面，只有一堆废话答案。
And so I really prefer, Google, just tell me.
所以我真的更喜欢谷歌，请告诉我。
Just tell me what I need to know.
只要告诉我我需要知道什么。
The other piece is if you really think about what Google has been trying to do, they've been trying to do this is like, here's our best shot at giving you an answer to this question, and here's links that'll point you to an answer.
另一件事是，如果你真的考虑一下谷歌一直在尝试做什么，他们一直在尝试这样做，就像，这是我们为你提供这个问题答案的最佳机会，这里的链接会为你指出答案。
Lenny Rachitsky: And this is just a better version of it where it takes all the actual information and just gives you the end result.
Lenny Rachitsky：这只是它的一个更好的版本，它获取所有实际信息并只为您提供最终结果。
So it makes a ton of sense that they're doing this and the technology has finally allowed them to do this.
因此，他们这样做是很有意义的，而且技术最终允许他们这样做。
Okay, so let's get to the, I don't know, $64,000 question, million dollar question, what should people do?
好吧，让我们来看看，我不知道，64,000 美元的问题，百万美元的问题，人们应该做什么？
What should people do to be successful in this new paradigm that as you're describing is in motion?
人们应该怎样做才能在您所描述的正在发生的新范式中取得成功？
Lenny Rachitsky: It's just starting to now happen.
Lenny Rachitsky：现在才刚刚开始。
And it may be catching people off guard because they've thought it's already been out and things are okay, and you're saying it's actually starting to actually move quicker.
它可能会让人们措手不及，因为他们认为它已经发布并且一切都很好，而你说它实际上开始更快地发展。
Eli Schwartz: I think it's fascinating, I'm honored to be one of the few marketers on your product hard test, but I think of SEO as a product.
Eli Schwartz：我认为这很有趣，我很荣幸成为少数参与你们产品硬测试的营销人员之一，但我认为 SEO 作为一种产品。
And I think the product managers are the people that should be thinking about this SEO question because it's a product question.
我认为产品经理应该考虑这个 SEO 问题，因为这是一个产品问题。
There are users that are coming in from the search channel.
有来自搜索渠道的用户。
What is the product that I need to create for them?
我需要为他们创造什么产品？
Eli Schwartz: What is the experience that I need to create for them?
Eli Schwartz：我需要为他们创造什么体验？
So typically, it was thought of as a marketing challenge of the product people have created this thing for me, and now I expect the marketers to go and do the SEO thing for it.
通常情况下，这被认为是人们为我创造的产品的营销挑战，现在我希望营销人员去做搜索引擎优化。
But there's a mismatch.
但有一个不匹配的地方。
So for example, I find very often when I talk to SaaS companies, I don't think SaaS in general should do SEO.
例如，当我与 SaaS 公司交谈时，我经常发现，我认为 SaaS 一般不应该做 SEO。
Eli Schwartz: But very often when I talk to SaaS companies, they have created a product for whatever user, and then the marketers are expected to make that product fit into the thing that the search results are around.
Eli Schwartz：但当我与 SaaS 公司交谈时，他们经常为任何用户创建一个产品，然后营销人员应该使该产品适合搜索结果周围的事物。
And it doesn't work because that's not what they're looking for.
但这行不通，因为这不是他们想要的。
No one asked the question of what it is that they're looking for.
没有人问他们在寻找什么。
So now that SEO is changing and you really need to think about this mid-funnel and you need to think about a user experience and a buyer experience when they're doing the search, I think it all comes together.
所以现在搜索引擎优化正在发生变化，你真的需要考虑这个中间漏斗，你需要考虑用户体验和买家在进行搜索时的体验，我认为这一切都是在一起的。
Eli Schwartz: And this is where the product people now need to think about how do we position this to the user that is not going to find out about this from a social channel, the user that's not going to be attracted by an ad, the user that's not going to discover this tool from a trade show.
Eli Schwartz：这就是产品人员现在需要考虑的地方，我们如何将其定位给不会从社交渠道找到此工具的用户、不会被广告吸引的用户、不会从贸易展览中发现此工具的用户。
This is a user that's doing their own self-discovery journey, and this is what is the thing they're looking for and how do we position this product in a way that they're going to find it.
这是一个正在进行自我发现之旅的用户，这就是他们正在寻找的东西，以及我们如何以他们能够找到的方式定位这个产品。
Eli Schwartz: So that's what everyone should be doing, product really collaborating with marketing and discovering what is it that the user wants and showcasing that.
Eli Schwartz：这就是每个人都应该做的，产品真正与营销合作，发现用户想要什么并展示它。
I was recently talking to a company in the health space.
我最近正在与一家健康领域的公司交谈。
They have an app.
他们有一个应用程序。
It's a health app.
这是一个健康应用程序。
And we talked about their marketing.
我们讨论了他们的营销。
Their SEO in general was they write thousands and thousands of blog posts.
他们的搜索引擎优化一般是他们写了成千上万的博客文章。
AI has allowed them to do things they should never have done.
人工智能让他们可以做一些他们不应该做的事情。
Eli Schwartz: They wrote thousands of blog posts about health in general.
Eli Schwartz：他们撰写了数千篇有关健康的博客文章。
I told them they shouldn't do that in general, but they wanted me to experience their product.
我告诉他们一般不应该这样做，但他们希望我体验他们的产品。
So they gave me a code to download their app, and their app is awful.
所以他们给了我一个代码来下载他们的应用程序，他们的应用程序很糟糕。
It's a bad product.
这是一个糟糕的产品。
So they're trying to do marketing that doesn't fit for a product that doesn't do the thing they say it's going to do.
因此，他们试图进行不适合产品的营销，而产品并没有达到他们所说的效果。
If they fix the product and understand the user, now it becomes, well, if I'm a user looking for this product, what are they looking for?
如果他们修复了产品并了解用户，那么现在，如果我是正在寻找该产品的用户，他们在寻找什么？
How do we showcase that, again, in the mid-funnel?
我们如何在漏斗中间再次展示这一点？
Lenny Rachitsky: Can you help us make this even more real?
Lenny Rachitsky：你能帮助我们让这一切变得更加真实吗？
Maybe go through an example of a product you worked on or one that's doing this really well in terms of going from, hey, they want our product.
也许可以看一下您所开发的产品的示例，或者是在这方面做得非常好的产品的示例，嘿，他们想要我们的产品。
What's the journey look like?
旅程是什么样的？
What's a good example of that?
有什么好的例子吗？
Eli Schwartz: So the earliest example of where I discovered on this process was about 10 years ago, I met the CEO of Zapier, Wade Foster, and he was a co-worker of mine.
Eli Schwartz：我在这个过程中发现的最早的例子是大约 10 年前，我遇到了 Zapier 的首席执行官 Wade Foster，他是我的同事。
I had invested in this company, and he asked me to meet with him to just discuss SEO.
我投资了这家公司，他让我和他见面讨论SEO。
They were doing something that no one needed.
他们正在做一些没人需要的事情。
They had this product which zapped things together, but no one needed it because they didn't know it existed.
他们拥有这种将事物组合在一起的产品，但没有人需要它，因为他们不知道它的存在。
But people knew that they needed things to work together.
但人们知道他们需要一些东西来协同工作。
Eli Schwartz: They just weren't looking for Zapier.
Eli Schwartz：他们只是不是在寻找扎皮尔。
So in my discussions with them, in our SEO experiments that we came up with, we said, well, people are looking for let's say Gmail and they're looking for Salesforce.
因此，在我与他们的讨论中，在我们提出的 SEO 实验中，我们说，人们正在寻找 Gmail，他们正在寻找 Salesforce。
They know that Gmail doesn't connect to Salesforce, they know Salesforce doesn't connect to Gmail, but they're looking for ways to pair it together.
他们知道 Gmail 无法连接到 Salesforce，也知道 Salesforce 无法连接到 Gmail，但他们正在寻找将其配对的方法。
Eli Schwartz: So what if we created as a product a marketing way to showcase that this product of zapping Gmail to Salesforce and Salesforce to Gmail exists?
Eli Schwartz：那么，如果我们创建一种产品营销方式来展示这种将 Gmail 转换为 Salesforce 以及将 Salesforce 转换为 Gmail 的产品的存在，会怎样呢？
And that's what we did.
这就是我们所做的。
So we built that at scale for everything that could work, and that was the experiment that I did with them, where everything would be available and it creates this flywheel of, wow, if Gmail can work with Salesforce, what else does Gmail work with?
因此，我们为所有可以工作的东西大规模构建了它，这就是我对他们所做的实验，一切都可用，它创建了一个飞轮，哇，如果 Gmail 可以与 Salesforce 一起使用，那么 Gmail 还可以与什么一起使用？
Eli Schwartz: Can it work with this other tool I have?
Eli Schwartz：它可以与我拥有的其他工具一起使用吗？
And that's a, again, early example where I stumbled upon this idea of people are looking for that other thing that you could do, showcase the fact that your product could do this thing.
这又是一个早期的例子，我偶然发现人们正在寻找你可以做的其他事情，展示你的产品可以做这件事的事实。
Lenny Rachitsky: I had no idea that you were involved in Zapier's SEO work.
Lenny Rachitsky：我不知道你参与了 Zapier 的 SEO 工作。
That's one of the most legendary successes of SEO.
这是 SEO 最具传奇色彩的成功之一。
Very cool.
非常酷。
Eli Schwartz: Total accidental.
Eli Schwartz：完全是偶然。
Whenever people ask me about programmatic SEO, and I know we have to dig into that, what programmatic SEO is, they're like, I want to imitate Zapier.
每当人们问我有关程序化 SEO 的问题时，我知道我们必须深入研究什么是程序化 SEO，他们会说，我想模仿 Zapier。
It's always great to mention that I helped through that.
值得一提的是我帮助解决了这个问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay, so the lesson there is you realized that the key, the opportunity is to teach people what they could accomplish with this product.
好的，所以教训是你意识到关键、机会是教人们用这个产品可以实现什么。
There's this awesome product doing amazing things.
这个很棒的产品可以做一些令人惊奇的事情。
They have a need they're searching for, say it's like Gmail and Salesforce, and how do we help them see there's something really interesting here.
他们有自己正在寻找的需求，比如说 Gmail 和 Salesforce，我们如何帮助他们发现这里有一些真正有趣的东西。
Eli Schwartz: Yeah.
伊莱·施瓦茨：是的。
I actually have a better one for you.
其实我有一个更好的给你。
Eli Schwartz: So I worked with Tinder for a couple years.
Eli Schwartz：所以我在 Tinder 上工作了几年。
One of the biggest challenges I ever had with SEO, especially as a consultant, is getting things done.
我在 SEO 方面遇到的最大挑战之一，尤其是作为一名顾问，就是把事情做好。
And I worked with amazing companies and there's great people, but then they run into this wall.
我曾与出色的公司合作，那里有很棒的人，但后来他们遇到了这堵墙。
In my book, I talk about one of the earlier stories I had of this where I worked at a company where I was hired by the CMO and we built out a great plan.
在我的书中，我谈到了我早期的一个故事，当时我在一家公司工作，我被首席营销官聘用，我们制定了一个伟大的计划。
Eli Schwartz: And then we go to the CEO who brings in the CTO to discuss our plan, and the CTO says, "I don't have engineers for this.
Eli Schwartz：然后我们去找首席执行官，他邀请首席技术官讨论我们的计划，首席技术官说：“我没有这方面的工程师。
So you decide whether you want to work on the product or you want to work on this marketing thing you've done." And then we didn't do anything because they never resourced it.
因此，你可以决定是要从事产品工作，还是要从事你已经完成的营销工作。”然后我们什么也没做，因为他们从来没有提供资源。
But I worked with this really great product person at Tinder, Udi Milo.
但我在 Tinder 与一位非常出色的产品人员 Udi Milo 一起工作。
He was the chief of growth.
他是增长的主宰。
Eli Schwartz: At Tinder, Udi Milo, he was the chief of growth, and he really saw a problem where Tinder had never done SEO.
Eli Schwartz：在Tinder，Udi Milo，他是增长主管，他确实看到了Tinder从未做过SEO的问题。
All of Tinder's inbound came from the word Tinder, and he is like, "There has to be upside for SEO if they've never done it before." So that...
Tinder 的所有入站流量都来自 Tinder 这个词，他说：“如果他们以前从未这样做过，那么 SEO 一定有好处。”所以说...
he was convinced of that.
他对此深信不疑。
He was willing to drive forward on this idea.
他愿意推动这个想法。
So when we started working together, the first thing we came up with is what is someone going to be searching when they look for Tinder?
因此，当我们开始合作时，我们首先想到的是，当人们寻找 Tinder 时，他们会搜索什么？
And it's not online dating.
而且这不是网上约会。
That's a single word.
那是一个词。
Eli Schwartz: We're not going to write out long-form content around everything related to dating because that's not the Tinder product.
Eli Schwartz：我们不会围绕与约会相关的所有内容编写长篇内容，因为那不是 Tinder 产品。
You're not reading a piece of content about how to fall in love and then somehow converting into Tinder.
您阅读的不是一篇关于如何坠入爱河然后以某种方式转换为 Tinder 的内容。
But in our user research and in the discussions we had on what the investment we can make into SEO was we discovered that Tinder is a loneliness-solving problem, loneliness-solving solution.
但在我们的用户研究和关于我们可以对 SEO 进行哪些投资的讨论中，我们发现 Tinder 是一个解决孤独问题、解决孤独问题的解决方案。
So you're lonely, you've gone to a new city, you don't know anybody you'd like to solve your loneliness problem.
所以你很孤独，你去了一个新的城市，你不认识任何人可以解决你的孤独问题。
So because you're in a new city, it occurred to us that this is a local thing.
因为你在一个新的城市，所以我们想到这是一个本地的事情。
So we're going to look for anything related to local.
所以我们要寻找与本地相关的任何内容。
So what we built out is if you look for online dating in many cities around the world...
所以我们的目标是，如果您在世界各地的许多城市寻找在线约会......
This is beta.
这是测试版。
It remained in its beta state, but if you look for online dating in many cities around the world, you're going to find a Tinder page, which gives some examples of places you can go on a date.
它仍处于测试状态，但如果您在世界各地的许多城市寻找在线约会，您将找到一个 Tinder 页面，其中提供了一些您可以去约会的地方的示例。
And more than that, it gives you Tinder as a solution to solve the loneliness problem you have.
更重要的是，它还为您提供了 Tinder 作为解决孤独问题的解决方案。
Lenny Rachitsky: So what changes here with the rise of AiO reviews and things like that?
Lenny Rachitsky：那么随着 AiO 评论和类似事情的兴起，这里发生了什么变化呢？
Is it this is where...
难道这里就是……
this is how future of SEO looks versus just keywords and endless block posts.
这就是 SEO 的未来，与关键词和无休止的区块帖子相比。
Eli Schwartz: Actually nothing changes here with AiO reviews because if you're looking for, you've gone to Dubai.
Eli Schwartz：实际上 AiO 的评论没有任何变化，因为如果你在寻找，你已经去了迪拜。
You've just...
你刚刚...
You've gone to Dubai.
你已经去迪拜了。
It's a brand new country, you've never been there before, and you're lonely.
这是一个全新的国家，你以前从未去过那里，而且你很孤独。
So you look for online dating in Dubai, and you're going to get...
所以你在迪拜寻找在线约会，你会得到......
Again, AiO reviews might tell you what the dating scene is like.
同样，AiO 评论可能会告诉您约会场景是什么样的。
It might tell you where to go on great dates.
它可能会告诉您去哪里度过美好的约会。
Eli Schwartz: However, it doesn't allow you to solve the loneliness problem you have.
Eli Schwartz：然而，它并不能解决你所面临的孤独问题。
The loneliness problem you have is a mid or bottom-of-funnel problem.
你遇到的孤独问题是漏斗中部或底部的问题。
You're still going to click on Tinder's result, no matter what the AiO review does.
无论 AiO 评论如何，您仍然会点击 Tinder 的结果。
So that's where I think SEO should be is you need to be in the buyer journey with the SEO you're creating.
所以我认为 SEO 应该是这样的，你需要通过你正在创建的 SEO 参与买家旅程。
And it doesn't matter what AiO reviews does or doesn't do because you're still solving the mid-funnel problem with your SEO solution.
AiO 评论做什么或不做什么并不重要，因为您仍在使用 SEO 解决方案解决中间漏斗问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's go in a direction I was going to say for later, but it might be useful now, which is, say, somebody's just sitting there at their desk thinking, "Hey, I want to be...
Lenny Rachitsky：让我们朝着我稍后要说的方向前进，但现在可能有用，也就是说，有人坐在办公桌前思考，“嘿，我想……
I want to start doing some SEO.
我想开始做一些搜索引擎优化。
I want to be successful at SEO.
我想在 SEO 方面取得成功。
Haven't really done a ton here." With this new world of AI and LMs, what would be step one, step two, step three to move down a direction of starting to poke their toe in the water of SEO?
在这里还没有真正做很多事情。”在人工智能和语言模型的新世界中，第一步、第二步、第三步是什么才能开始涉足 SEO？
Eli Schwartz: I think step one is the step that almost everyone misses on SEO, which is be the user.
Eli Schwartz：我认为第一步是几乎每个人在 SEO 上都错过的一步，那就是成为用户。
Try to understand who your user is.
尝试了解您的用户是谁。
And there've been so many companies, and SurveyMonkey was a great example.
已经有很多公司了，SurveyMonkey 就是一个很好的例子。
One, I spent seven years at SurveyMonkey, and when everyone got onboarded at SurveyMonkey, they gave you a SurveyMonkey account and told you that you should run a survey.
第一，我在 SurveyMonkey 工作了七年，当每个人都加入 SurveyMonkey 时，他们给了你一个 SurveyMonkey 帐户，并告诉你应该进行一项调查。
I think later, in the later years, they forced everyone in their onboarding time to use a survey...
我想后来，在后来的几年里，他们强迫每个人在入职时都使用调查……
run a survey with people in the company, but before that, no one did.
对公司人员进行了一项调查，但在此之前，没有人这样做。
So they had this account, and they never did a survey.
所以他们有这个账户，但他们从未做过调查。
So they had zero customer empathy for why people use the tool.
因此，他们对人们使用该工具的原因的客户同理心为零。
Eli Schwartz: And then, when you think about it from a product and marketing standpoint, you're thinking about it as a work challenge rather than a customer empathy challenge.
Eli Schwartz：然后，当您从产品和营销的角度考虑它时，您会将其视为工作挑战，而不是客户同理心挑战。
So the first thing anybody should really do around anything that they're trying to do SEO is try to be that customer.
因此，任何人在尝试进行 SEO 时应该做的第一件事就是努力成为那个客户。
So if I am a user of this SaaS, I'm building SaaS, and I want to market this tool, what is a user going to look for?
因此，如果我是这个 SaaS 的用户，我正在构建 SaaS，并且我想推销这个工具，那么用户会寻找什么？
What's the problem they're going to look for that would make them want to do a search?
他们要寻找的问题是什么会让他们想要进行搜索？
And earlier, I referenced that I don't think most SaaS tools should do SEO.
早些时候，我提到我认为大多数 SaaS 工具不应该进行 SEO。
And the reason is because a lot of times, when I talk to SaaS companies about SEO, I ask them this question, and they give me a blank stare.
原因是因为很多时候，当我和 SaaS 公司谈论 SEO 时，我问他们这个问题，他们却茫然地看着我。
Eli Schwartz: So if you can't answer the question about what is it that someone's going to do a search on, then don't do SEO because SEO is about appealing to that user.
Eli Schwartz：因此，如果您无法回答某人要搜索什么的问题，那么就不要进行 SEO，因为 SEO 的目的是吸引该用户。
If you can understand what the user should do around looking for whatever product you have, then that's the first step for SEO.
如果您能够了解用户在寻找您拥有的任何产品时应该做什么，那么这就是搜索引擎优化的第一步。
So who is this user?
那么这个用户是谁呢？
Who am I marketing to?
我向谁营销？
You're sort of creating this persona in your mind.
你正在脑子里创造这个角色。
Step two is think about the asset you're going to create.
第二步是考虑您要创建的资产。
So pivoting over to what he talks about Tinder.
所以我们转向他谈论的 Tinder。
So we understood that it was a user that was solving a loneliness problem any in the world because that's what Tinder does.
因此，我们知道用户正在解决世界上任何一个孤独问题，因为这就是 Tinder 所做的事情。
It solves that loneliness problem in any way you want, of course.
当然，它可以以任何你想要的方式解决孤独问题。
Eli Schwartz: And now we had to think about what is it that we're going to create.
Eli Schwartz：现在我们必须考虑我们要创造什么。
We know it should be global, of course.
当然，我们知道它应该是全球性的。
We would know we want it to be programmatic, which is something we should dig into like difference programmatic versus editorial.
我们知道我们希望它是程序化的，这是我们应该深入研究的东西，就像程序化与编辑的区别一样。
We know we want to be programmatic because no one wants to in position of writing a page out for every town or every city or every neighborhood in the entire world.
我们知道我们想要程序化，因为没有人愿意为全世界的每个城镇或每个城市或每个社区写一页。
So we want it to be programmatic.
所以我们希望它是程序化的。
What things do we need to pull into that?
我们需要投入哪些东西？
And then the third step is really building, and we're on a product podcast.
然后第三步是真正的构建，我们正在制作产品播客。
Of course, to the product people, you're building the product for that SEO user.
当然，对于产品人员来说，您正在为 SEO 用户构建产品。
So where do you get those inputs?
那么你从哪里获得这些输入呢？
What does this page need to look like?
这个页面需要是什么样子？
Eli Schwartz: So again, the reason I think SEO needs to be on product is because the inputs for SEO aren't the way many people think of SEO, which is a piece of content optimized for Google based on the keywords I've chosen.
Eli Schwartz：再说一遍，我认为 SEO 需要放在产品上的原因是因为 SEO 的输入并不是很多人所认为的 SEO 的方式，SEO 是根据我选择的关键字针对 Google 进行优化的内容。
I think of it as a product, which means you need design resources.
我认为它是一个产品，这意味着你需要设计资源。
You need engineering resources.
您需要工程资源。
Of course, you need a product manager to really oversee the building of this.
当然，你需要一个产品经理来真正监督这个建设。
You need user research.
你需要用户研究。
So it's, again, more than just a piece of content.
因此，它不仅仅是一个内容。
So going through those steps, again, it's understand who your user is, decide what it is that you need to create for that user.
因此，再次完成这些步骤，了解您的用户是谁，决定您需要为该用户创建什么。
And the third is envision this product.
第三是设想这个产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: So I think there's a really powerful point here that might be...
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我认为这里有一个非常有力的观点，可能是......
people might not get, which is the user needs to be thinking of something they will go to Google to search for to find your product.
人们可能不会明白，这是用户需要考虑他们会去谷歌搜索以找到你的产品的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: So it's if they're...
Lenny Rachitsky：所以如果他们...
if nobody is searching for the thing that you're building in some way, there's not going to be an opportunity for you to win an SEO or and benefit from SEO.
如果没有人搜索您以某种方式构建的东西，您将没有机会赢得 SEO 或从 SEO 中受益。
Are there any examples that come to mind to you of B2B, SaaS companies that just like, "This is not...
您是否会想到 B2B、SaaS 公司的任何例子，这些公司只是喜欢“这不是......
There's no SEO opportunity here, just like no one's searching for this thing."
这里没有搜索引擎优化的机会，就像没有人搜索这个东西一样。”
Eli Schwartz: Most of them.
伊莱·施瓦茨：大多数。
.
。
One of my first consulting clients, right, when I left SurveyMonkey was Mixpanel.
当我离开 SurveyMonkey 时，我的第一个咨询客户（右）是 Mixpanel。
So, I mean, I just left my job, and I'm going to take any client that I have.
所以，我的意思是，我刚刚辞去了工作，我将接受我拥有的任何客户。
I have some awful clients that I took, but Mixpanel was not an awful client.
我接过一些糟糕的客户，但 Mixpanel 并不是一个糟糕的客户。
It was just an eye-opening client where we're trying to do SEO, and I'm doing SEO and exactly the way that CEO had told me SEO should work, and he was going to do it himself.
这只是一个令人大开眼界的客户，我们正在尝试做 SEO，而我正在做 SEO，并且完全按照首席执行官告诉我 SEO 应该工作的方式，他将自己做。
So I told them the keywords.
所以我告诉他们关键词。
We came up with the content.
我们想出了内容。
We built the links.
我们建立了链接。
We did all the stuff SEO was supposed to do, and it didn't work.
我们做了 SEO 应该做的所有事情，但没有成功。
And we were sitting there, and I asked them to show me the user journey.
我们坐在那里，我请他们向我展示用户旅程。
They have a tool that does it.
他们有一个工具可以做到这一点。
That's what Mixpanel does.
这就是 Mixpanel 的作用。
Eli Schwartz: So someone clicks on a search result and they land on this piece of content, which we did research and we know what people look for, but why is it that it doesn't convert?
Eli Schwartz：所以有人点击搜索结果，然后他们登陆了这段内容，我们对此进行了研究，我们知道人们在寻找什么，但为什么它没有转换？
And then I realized that there were other problems to this conversion, which is Mixpanel is a product you integrate in your entire company.
然后我意识到这种转换还有其他问题，那就是 Mixpanel 是你在整个公司中集成的产品。
You don't just do a quick Google for it and be like, "Oh, analytics.
你不只是快速谷歌一下然后说，“哦，分析。
Yeah.
是的。
I'm going to tell everyone we got to do it and it's going to be live tomorrow." Also, Mixpanel is expensive.
我会告诉大家我们必须这么做，并且明天就会上线。”另外，Mixpanel 价格昂贵。
So again, it's the kind of thing that there's friction of.
再说一遍，这是一种存在摩擦的事情。
You don't just click from a search result and then decide to just purchase it.
您不只是从搜索结果中点击然后决定购买它。
You can't even purchase it on your credit card.
您甚至无法使用信用卡购买。
I don't believe.
我不相信。
Eli Schwartz: So those are the issues, and that's why I think SaaS is not the best fit for SEO because if you think about that journey, the problem doesn't necessarily exist.
Eli Schwartz：所以这些就是问题所在，这就是为什么我认为 SaaS 不是最适合 SEO 的原因，因为如果你考虑一下这段旅程，问题并不一定存在。
The SaaS solves the problem, but only once you know that problem exists.
SaaS 可以解决问题，但前提是您知道问题存在。
And getting people to know that problem exists is typically not an SEO challenge.
让人们知道问题的存在通常不是 SEO 的挑战。
It's typically a brand challenge.
这通常是一个品牌挑战。
You make a viral video of you didn't realize that you could use this tool we've created to solve your problem, but no one is necessarily searching for a problem they didn't know they had or a solution they didn't know could exist.
您制作了一段病毒式视频，显示您没有意识到可以使用我们创建的这个工具来解决您的问题，但没有人一定会寻找他们不知道自己遇到的问题或他们不知道可能存在的解决方案。
So that's where the breakoff is.
这就是中断的地方。
And then the other issue, of course, is now they know the problem exists, but it's not an SEO journey.
当然，另一个问题是现在他们知道问题的存在，但这不是 SEO 之旅。
Eli Schwartz: So I had another eye-opening experience early in COVID when I was...
Eli Schwartz：所以，在新冠疫情早期，我有另一次令人大开眼界的经历，当时我……
everyone was home, and there wasn't a lot of things to do.
大家都在家，也没什么事情可做。
Google reached out to me about a role on their team on Google Cloud for doing SEO.
Google 向我介绍了他们在 Google Cloud 团队中负责 SEO 的职位。
And there wasn't a chance I was going to take it, and it seemed like an interesting thing to go through a hiring loop and stay at home.
我没有机会接受它，而且呆在家里经历招聘循环似乎是一件有趣的事情。
So I had a fascinating experience interviewing because every time the...
所以我有一次很有趣的面试经历，因为每次......
first it was the hiring manager and every time it was someone on that team that started the interview.
首先是招聘经理，每次都是该团队中的某个人开始面试。
They said, "Are there any questions that you have for me?" And then I spent the next 45 minutes asking them all the questions like, "Why are you doing SEO?
他们说：“你有什么问题要问我吗？”然后我在接下来的 45 分钟里问了他们所有的问题，比如“你们为什么要做 SEO？
What kind of keywords would you want to do?
你想做什么样的关键词？
What does this SEO journey look like?" Because for Google Cloud, they only have two competitors, Amazon and Microsoft, and no one is going to do a search and be like, "Oh, Google's number one for this term I searched.
这个 SEO 之旅是什么样的？”因为对于谷歌云来说，他们只有两个竞争对手，亚马逊和微软，没有人会在搜索时说，“哦，谷歌是我搜索的这个词的第一名。
Let me just go buy it." There's a decision-making process.
就让我去买吧。”有一个决策过程。
You bring...
你带...
There's a committee decision.
有一个委员会的决定。
So SEO sort of made no sense for that even to be included as a part of a marketing channel.
因此，即使将其作为营销渠道的一部分，搜索引擎优化也没有任何意义。
And at a grand scale, Google Cloud should not be doing SEO.
从大范围来看，谷歌云不应该做搜索引擎优化。
At a small scale, a lot of SaaS tools shouldn't be doing SEO because there isn't necessarily an SEO journey.
在小范围内，许多 SaaS 工具不应该做 SEO，因为不一定有 SEO 旅程。
I get a lot of pushback from companies when I tell them.
当我告诉公司时，我遭到了很多阻力。
They're like, "Look at all the SEO we've done." But that plateaus really quickly.
他们就像，“看看我们所做的所有搜索引擎优化。”但这个平台期真的很快。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is really fascinating, and just to maybe reframe what you're saying because there's kind of a couple elements of this.
Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很有趣，只是为了重新组织一下你所说的内容，因为其中有几个要素。
It's not necessarily that people aren't searching Google for the problem.
人们不一定不会在谷歌上搜索这个问题。
So I'm thinking of Vanta SOC 2 stuff.
所以我正在考虑 Vanta SOC 2 的东西。
It's not like people aren't SOC 2 certification.
这并不是说人们没有获得 SOC 2 认证。
It's not like they're searching...
他们并不是在寻找...
they're not searching.
他们没有在寻找。
Lenny Rachitsky: And what I'm hearing is the bigger issue is they will never buy your product from that experience and that journey.
Lenny Rachitsky：我听到的更大的问题是，他们永远不会从那种经历和旅程中购买你的产品。
It may educate them a little bit and may teach them, "Oh, Vanta exists," but they're never going to become customers.
它可能会对他们进行一些教育，并可能教会他们“哦，Vanta 存在”，但他们永远不会成为客户。
They need to talk to salesperson.
他们需要与销售人员交谈。
They need to involve bunch of stakeholders.
他们需要让利益相关者参与进来。
So it's basically a sales motion.
所以这基本上是一个销售动议。
It's not a product-led SEO motion.
这不是一个以产品为主导的 SEO 运动。
Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。
Pulling on that thread a little bit further beyond maybe even B2B, just how does one decide if SEO is an opportunity for you, and also just how much should you invest in this opportunity just to explore it?
甚至比 B2B 更进一步，人们如何决定 SEO 是否对您来说是一个机会，以及您应该在这个机会上投资多少来探索它？
Eli Schwartz: So we have to really put away the myth that SEO is free because it's absolutely not free.
Eli Schwartz：所以我们必须真正抛弃 SEO 是免费的神话，因为它绝对不是免费的。
There's a cost in time.
时间是有成本的。
There's a cost and resources, and, of course, there's the direct expense for SEO.
这是有成本和资源的，当然，还有搜索引擎优化的直接费用。
So if you're deciding that you should do SEO, so now we have to go through this evaluation.
因此，如果您决定应该进行搜索引擎优化，那么现在我们必须进行此评估。
Again, this is where I think of it as a product where you have all these product ideas and what should you spend time and money on.
同样，这就是我将其视为一种产品的地方，你拥有所有这些产品创意以及你应该在哪些方面花费时间和金钱。
So SEO is a channel you may or may not want to invest in.
所以SEO是一个你可能想也可能不想投资的渠道。
Eli Schwartz: So say there's a SaaS tool, and they're convinced there's an SEO journey, people do search for this solution.
Eli Schwartz：假设有一个 SaaS 工具，并且他们确信有一个 SEO 之旅，人们确实会搜索这个解决方案。
When I was at SurveyMonkey, we generated a couple of hundred million dollars a year off of organic traffic because it was a freemium tool where you search for the prodem...
当我在 SurveyMonkey 时，我们每年从有机流量中赚取数亿美元，因为它是一个免费增值工具，您可以在其中搜索产品...
the problem, you find the solution, it's free, you sign up for it.
问题，你找到解决方案，它是免费的，你注册即可。
If it works for you, you end up paying, and that's the revenue we've generated from organic.
如果它对你有用，你最终会付费，这就是我们从有机产品中产生的收入。
So say there is a journey, so people do search for it, and it makes sense to invest in SEO now is when you'll decide how much should you invest in it and how you should invest in it.
所以说有一个旅程，所以人们确实会搜索它，现在投资 SEO 是有意义的，此时您将决定应该投资多少以及应该如何投资。
Eli Schwartz: So typically, again, for SurveyMonkey, it was around creating content.
Eli Schwartz：对于 SurveyMonkey 来说，通常都是围绕创建内容。
It was around templates.
它围绕着模板。
It wasn't very expensive.
价格不是很贵。
But let's say there's a company that does not have a content team.
但假设有一家公司没有内容团队。
They don't have a product yet that people are going to search for.
他们还没有人们会搜索的产品。
They don't have a product manager that's going to be overseeing this SEO process.
他们没有产品经理来监督这个 SEO 过程。
So say you need to hire this PM, or you want to hire an agency, a typical SEO agency, I mean, you're not going to spend $500 on an SEO agency.
所以说你需要雇佣这个 PM，或者你想雇佣一个代理机构，一个典型的 SEO 代理机构，我的意思是，你不会在 SEO 代理机构上花费 500 美元。
It's going to be upwards of $10,000 just because that's the cost of someone's time.
仅仅因为这是某人的时间成本，它就会超过 10,000 美元。
Eli Schwartz: So it's $10,000 a month, $120,000 a year, gets even more expensive if you have a full-time employee.
Eli Schwartz：所以每月 10,000 美元，每年 120,000 美元，如果你有一名全职员工，那就更贵了。
So that's one expense you're going to outline.
这就是您要列出的一项费用。
Then, you're going to add in all the supporting resources.
然后，您将添加所有支持资源。
You need a CMS.
您需要一个内容管理系统。
That costs money.
那要花钱。
You need an engineer to support them.
您需要一名工程师来支持他们。
That costs money.
那要花钱。
You need a potentially design.
您需要一个潜在的设计。
You need content.
你需要内容。
So it can really add up quickly.
所以它真的可以很快加起来。
And now you look at that investment, and you say, "For this tool, if I invested a million dollars a year in SEO, do I expect to make back a million dollars a year soon, right?
现在你看看这项投资，你会说：“对于这个工具，如果我每年在 SEO 上投资 100 万美元，我预计很快就能每年收回 100 万美元，对吗？
Eli Schwartz: SEO will always make back money if it's the right fit, but soon.
Eli Schwartz：如果合适的话，SEO 总会赚钱，但很快。
So SaaS tools, especially startups, they need to make that money back soon.
因此，SaaS 工具，尤其是初创公司，他们需要尽快收回这笔钱。
Or if they took that exact same million dollars and put it into brand ads, or they put it into influencer campaigns, or they put it into just traditional paid marketing on Meta and Google, would you make that million dollars or $1,000,001 back faster?
或者，如果他们将同样的一百万美元投入到品牌广告中，或者将其投入到有影响力的活动中，或者将其投入到 Meta 和 Google 上的传统付费营销中，您会更快地收回那百万美元还是 1,000,001 美元吗？
Eli Schwartz: And that's where I think the evaluation should happen instead of this default, "Well, I just got my funding.
Eli Schwartz：我认为评估应该发生，而不是默认，“嗯，我刚刚得到了我的资金。
I need to invest in SEO because it's free, and everyone does SEO.
我需要投资 SEO，因为它是免费的，而且每个人都做 SEO。
And look, my competitors do SEO." It should really be this thoughtful strategic decision-making process of how much will this cost me all in and is this the right use of funds.
看，我的竞争对手做 SEO。”这实际上应该是一个深思熟虑的战略决策过程，即这将花费我多少钱，以及这是否是资金的正确使用。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
So I think this is really important.
所以我认为这非常重要。
It's not that you won't benefit from SEO.
这并不是说您不会从 SEO 中受益。
It's not that SEO isn't an opportunity.
这并不是说 SEO 不是一个机会。
It's that you have much bigger opportunities in other areas.
而是你在其他领域有更大的机会。
Most likely, if you're a B2B SaaS companies, because the journey isn't fully online, you're not going to convert by just reading a bunch of pages.
最有可能的是，如果您是一家 B2B SaaS 公司，因为旅程并非完全在线，您不会仅通过阅读一堆页面来实现转化。
Eli Schwartz: Yeah.
伊莱·施瓦茨：是的。
There was once a company I met, there was a SaaS tool, they were in a gardening space.
我曾经遇到过一家公司，有一个 SaaS 工具，他们在一个园艺空间里。
they made a SaaS for gardeners, and they were insistent on doing SEO.
他们为园丁做了一个SaaS，并且坚持做SEO。
And they asked me to look at a proposal they got from an agency for $15,000 a month, and it was all content.
他们让我看一下他们从一家机构那里得到的一份每月 15,000 美元的提案，内容很满意。
And then I asked them how their users found them.
然后我问他们的用户是如何找到他们的。
How did they get all the customers they had that paid them?
他们是如何吸引所有向他们付款的客户的？
How did they find them?
他们是怎么找到他们的？
Eli Schwartz: They said they go to these gardening shows around the country, and they have a booth, and each booth costs them $10,000.
Eli Schwartz：他们说他们去全国各地参加这些园艺展，他们有一个展位，每个展位花费他们 10,000 美元。
So I said, "Instead of spending $15,000 on SEO, you can get...
所以我说，“你不用在 SEO 上花费 15,000 美元，而是可以得到......
you can go to all these shows for the exact same budget, and you get users who are interested, they're in market, they try your tool out at the booth, and then they leave and they're leads that you could follow up with.
你可以以完全相同的预算参加所有这些展会，你会得到感兴趣的用户，他们在市场上，他们在展位上试用你的工具，然后他们离开，他们是你可以跟进的线索。
Instead of investing in me like, hope it works.
不要像投资我一样，希望它能起作用。
It's sort of free.
这有点免费。
There are searches for it, but it's not the right searches."
有人在寻找它，但这不是正确的搜索。”
Lenny Rachitsky: The takeaway here is if you're thinking about whether SEO is worth an investment for you and you see all these other companies doing SEO winning with SEO, think about how much will this actually cost us.
Lenny Rachitsky：这里的要点是，如果您正在考虑 SEO 是否值得您投资，并且您看到所有其他公司通过 SEO 进行 SEO 获胜，请考虑一下这实际上会花费我们多少钱。
And I think the most important takeaway for me here is if you don't think it'll convert online if you think sales is the core motion of the process, it's probably not a good ROI for you.
我认为对我来说最重要的收获是，如果您认为销售是流程的核心动力，那么它可能不会在线转化，这对您来说可能不是一个好的投资回报率。
Eli Schwartz: Absolutely.
伊莱·施瓦茨：当然。
Yeah.
是的。
Really think about what are the trade-offs.
真正考虑一下权衡是什么。
Again, from a product standpoint, there's always trade-offs.
同样，从产品的角度来看，总是需要权衡。
So what are the trade-offs to investing in this channel versus another channel?
那么投资这个渠道与投资另一个渠道有什么权衡呢？
Lenny Rachitsky: And I think what I've seen, there's all the...
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为我所看到的，都是......
the way I think about it, there's four actual growth engines...
在我看来，有四个实际的增长引擎......
there are four core growth engines.
有四个核心增长引擎。
SEO, paid, virality, and sales.
SEO、付费、病毒式传播和销售。
And what I find is, eventually, large companies do them all.
我发现，最终，大公司都会做这一切。
Unless you're a consumer, you don't do sale.
除非你是消费者，否则你不会进行销售。
And so it's not like SEO should you never do.
所以这不像 SEO，你永远不应该这样做。
It's I think the main point here is earlier stage, when you have limited resources, probably not the best use of your time.
我认为这里的要点是早期阶段，当你的资源有限时，可能没有充分利用你的时间。
Eli Schwartz: I think there are companies that should probably never do SEO.
Eli Schwartz：我认为有些公司可能永远不应该做搜索引擎优化。
going back to what I said when Google Cloud, I don't think that Google could ever say...
回到我在 Google Cloud 时所说的话，我认为 Google 永远不会说……
really pinpoint that there was a customer that they got purely from SEO, and you're going to do all sorts of weighted attribution.
真正确定有一个客户纯粹是通过 SEO 获得的，然后您将进行各种加权归因。
And maybe that person did discover Google Cloud from a piece of content or piece of SEO asset, but they never would've converted with all those other things that they've touched.
也许那个人确实从一段内容或一段 SEO 资产中发现了 Google Cloud，但他们永远不会用他们接触过的所有其他东西进行转换。
Lenny Rachitsky: And it's not like you're saying, "Don't be on the internet and don't will make it easy for people to understand who you are, don't have a great site, don't have other pages writing about you.
Lenny Rachitsky：这并不是说，“不要上网，这样人们就不会轻易了解你是谁，没有一个很棒的网站，也没有其他页面介绍你。
It's just don't...
只是不要...
You don't need to spend time optimizing the search results for Google Cloud.
您无需花费时间优化 Google Cloud 的搜索结果。
You're not going to benefit significantly from that work.
你不会从这项工作中获益匪浅。
Eli Schwartz: Yes, I mean, again, go really digging into this user journey piece.
Eli Schwartz：是的，我的意思是，再次深入研究这个用户旅程。
I don't think restaurants typically should have a website.
我认为餐馆通常不应该有一个网站。
Not only should they not do SEO, but I don't know that they should have a website.
他们不仅不应该做SEO，而且我不知道他们应该有一个网站。
Eli Schwartz: Because if you think about the buyer journey for a person looking for food, they don't typically go to a website.
Eli Schwartz：因为如果你考虑一下寻找食物的人的购买旅程，他们通常不会访问网站。
So if you're looking for pizza, and again, a lot of pizza shops have websites.
因此，如果您正在寻找披萨，很多披萨店都有网站。
But if you're looking for pizza, you're going to Google Maps, DoorDash, Uber Eats.
但如果你正在寻找披萨，你会使用 Google 地图、DoorDash、Uber Eats。
You're not going on Google and saying, "Pizza near me," and then browsing the websites and just making a decision about where to eat lunch.
你不会在谷歌上说“我附近有披萨”，然后浏览网站并决定去哪里吃午餐。
Eli Schwartz: Again, if you're choosing how to cater your kid's birthday party, that might be a different thing, but you're not browsing and saying, "These are the places I'm going to go right now." But more than that, it's expensive, and there's no way that that pizza shop knows that the website they have with the soft music playing and their menu that comes up in flash, which is expensive, does a single thing for them.
Eli Schwartz：再说一遍，如果您正在选择如何举办孩子的生日聚会，那可能是另一回事，但您不会浏览并说：“这些是我现在要去的地方。”但更重要的是，它很昂贵，而且那家披萨店不可能知道他们拥有的播放轻柔音乐的网站和以闪存形式出现的菜单（价格昂贵）对他们来说没有任何作用。
Most of their orders are going to come again through those other platforms.
他们的大部分订单将再次通过其他平台获得。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, I hate restaurant websites.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我讨厌餐厅网站。
One thing I read once that explains why what restaurant websites are so bad is restaurant owners are big on just like what is the experience when someone enters my restaurant that they go through the vibe, and they do that on the website.
我曾经读过的一件事解释了为什么餐厅网站如此糟糕，因为餐厅老板热衷于就像有人进入我的餐厅时他们经历的氛围一样，他们在网站上做到了这一点。
They're like, here's the music, and here's the imagery, and here's the animations.
他们就像，这是音乐，这是图像，这是动画。
Lenny Rachitsky: And nobody wants that in on their website.
Lenny Rachitsky：没有人希望将其出现在他们的网站上。
Just like give me the hours and location and your menu.
就像给我营业时间、地点和菜单一样。
You mentioned a couple of things that I want to drill into a little bit.
你提到了一些我想深入探讨的事情。
So, one is just how long SEO should take for you to see results.
因此，其中之一就是 SEO 需要多长时间才能看到结果。
Two is just expectations of what does good conversion look like.
二是对良好转化是什么样子的期望。
What does it tells you this is actually us, a journey that could work for us well enough that SEO might work?
它告诉你什么，这实际上是我们，一段对我们来说足够有效的旅程，以至于 SEO 可能有效？
So maybe those two questions.
所以也许是这两个问题。
Eli Schwartz: So those will be custom for anything.
Eli Schwartz：所以这些都是定制的。
And I hate to use the word, it depends because I think whenever consultants say it depends, they're just...
我讨厌使用这个词，“这取决于”，因为我认为每当顾问说“这取决于”时，他们只是......
they're throwing their hands up and saying, "I don't really know.
他们举起双手说：“我真的不知道。
I'm not...
我不是...
I don't have an opinion on this." And it's like when you go to a doctor, and the doctor's like, "Well, it depends." I mean, you could be dying, or you could just...
我对此没有意见。”就像当你去看医生时，医生会说：“嗯，这要看情况。”我的意思是，你可能会死，或者你可能...
need to take a nap, right.
需要小睡一下，对吧。
So there's a custom answer here, and it comes down to what the company is and what the expectations are.
因此，这里有一个自定义答案，这取决于公司是什么以及期望是什么。
So how long it takes, that depends on what you're building.
因此，需要多长时间，这取决于您要构建的内容。
So if you're...
所以如果你...
if there's an...
如果有一个...
Again, with Tinder, it took us a while to actually build anything.
同样，对于 Tinder，我们花了一段时间才真正构建出任何东西。
Eli Schwartz: So it took us all this time to build for ideate them, build and then to see results.
Eli Schwartz：所以我们花了很多时间来构思、构建然后看到结果。
But once we built, and I love working with big companies that are well-known brands, because what we build, as soon as it's available on the web, it's like this turning a huge ship.
但是一旦我们建造了，我喜欢与知名品牌的大公司合作，因为我们建造的东西一旦在网络上可用，就像转动一艘巨大的船一样。
It starts driving revenue and starts being super effective because it's there.
它开始推动收入并开始变得超级有效，因为它就在那里。
Something didn't exist, and now it exists, and it drives revenue.
以前不存在的东西，现在它存在了，并且它推动了收入。
Smaller companies, it may take many months before Google notices.
对于较小的公司，谷歌可能需要几个月的时间才会注意到。
It may take many months before the demand is there.
可能需要几个月的时间才能出现需求。
With Zapier, I think it took them a couple of years before they even saw any results because nobody's looking for it.
对于扎皮尔，我认为他们花了几年时间才看到任何结果，因为没有人在寻找它。
So it comes down to what it is that you're building and how quickly users will come and find and need that solution.
因此，这取决于您正在构建的内容以及用户找到并需要该解决方案的速度。
Eli Schwartz: Then, as far as what the expectations are on conversions, that also is really depends on what it is that you're looking for.
Eli Schwartz：那么，就转化率的期望而言，这实际上也取决于您正在寻找什么。
There's...
有...
Some companies are building media, and they ...
一些公司正在建立媒体，他们......
I mean, again, I think most companies should just not write a lot of content unless they're a media company.
我的意思是，我认为大多数公司不应该编写大量内容，除非他们是媒体公司。
But if you are building media and you're monetizing that content from a media standpoint, so maybe it leads, maybe clicks off the page into leads, or maybe it's CPM advertising, so then your conversion is...
但是，如果您正在构建媒体，并且从媒体的角度将该内容货币化，那么它可能会带来潜在客户，可能会点击页面进入潜在客户，或者可能是每千次展示费用广告，那么您的转化就是……
what you're trying to do with SEO is get a lot of page views because the more page views you get, the more clicks off that page you get into something else.
你想要通过搜索引擎优化做的是获得大量的页面浏览量，因为你获得的页面浏览量越多，从该页面进入其他内容的点击次数就越多。
If you're a SaaS tool, then your conversion should absolutely be whatever a MQL should be.
如果您是 SaaS 工具，那么您的转换绝对应该是 MQL 应该是什么。
Eli Schwartz: So you...
伊莱·施瓦茨：所以你...
And again, I think most people don't do this correctly with SEO.
再说一遍，我认为大多数人在 SEO 方面都没有正确地做到这一点。
They used the wrong conversion metric, which is top-of-funnel ranking.
他们使用了错误的转化指标，即漏斗顶部排名。
"Oh, I'm ranking.
“哦，我来排名了。
My SEO is successful.
我的 SEO 很成功。
I'm number one for this." Instead of, "How does this benefit me?" There was a company I was working with, a SaaS tool.
我是这方面的第一名。”而不是“这对我有什么好处？”我曾与一家公司合作，开发 SaaS 工具。
They're in a two-sided marketplace they worked with...
他们处于一个与之合作的双向市场......
in an HR space, so they only monetized one side of that HR space, but all the traffic was on the other side of the HR space.
在人力资源空间中，因此他们只将该人力资源空间的一侧货币化，但所有流量都在人力资源空间的另一侧。
So when we were talking about their SEO conversion problems, I suggested that they delete all the content that was on the wrong side of that marketplace because they didn't convert at all.
因此，当我们谈论他们的 SEO 转化问题时，我建议他们删除该市场上错误一侧的所有内容，因为他们根本没有转化。
Eli Schwartz: And there's no...
Eli Schwartz：而且没有……
And this is a common misconception.
这是一个常见的误解。
People will think you get a benefit from traffic.
人们会认为你从流量中获得了好处。
Google sees, "Oh, I get all this traffic from search.
谷歌看到，“哦，我从搜索中获得了所有这些流量。
They think I'm a very good website.
他们认为我是一个非常好的网站。
So even though none of this converts for me, I should have a blog because blogs are good." It doesn't really work like that.
因此，即使这些对我来说都没有转化，我也应该拥有一个博客，因为博客很好。”事实并非如此。
I mean, maybe if you're this massive website and I don't know, let's say, get millions and millions of visits, then you can build some sort of authority and some good experience in Google, and now you can launch something else, and you don't have to worry about needing to build up that authority.
我的意思是，也许如果你是一个庞大的网站，而我不知道，比方说，获得数以百万计的访问量，那么你可以在谷歌中建立某种权威和一些良好的经验，现在你可以推出其他东西，而你不必担心需要建立这种权威。
But generally, driving traffic to something that doesn't convert for you wouldn't be a good idea.
但一般来说，将流量引向不会为您带来转化的内容并不是一个好主意。
Eli Schwartz: So really understanding what is it that you're trying to do with SEO traffic, that's your conversion metric.
Eli Schwartz：真正了解您想要对 SEO 流量做什么，这就是您的转化指标。
So it could be MQLs, could be page use, could be dollar conversions, it could be people picking up the phone or watching the video, but it has to be some sort of conversion.
因此，它可能是 MQL，可能是页面使用，可能是美元转换，可能是人们拿起电话或观看视频，但它必须是某种转换。
So for a startup, it might mean that they...
所以对于初创公司来说，这可能意味着他们......
you're getting links.
你会得到链接。
I mean, at a minimum, people reading your content deciding to link to you and give you social shares.
我的意思是，至少，阅读您内容的人决定链接到您并为您提供社交分享。
That might be something you put in a pitch deck.
这可能是你放在融资演讲稿中的东西。
Whatever it is, there has to be a conversion metric that matters for the business.
无论是什么，都必须有一个对业务重要的转化指标。
Lenny Rachitsky: So just to give someone that's starting to do this something concrete to look at.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以只是为了给那些开始做这件事的人一些具体的东西来看看。
When you come to a startup and help them with SEO, what do you usually track as a sign this is working that we should keep investing?
当你来到一家初创公司并帮助他们进行搜索引擎优化时，你通常会跟踪什么来作为我们应该继续投资的迹象？
What's...
什么是...
What are the couple metrics that you look at most?
您最关注的几个指标是什么？
Eli Schwartz: The first is really understanding what is it that they care about.
Eli Schwartz：首先是真正了解他们关心什么。
And rankings could be something they care about if someone else cares about it.
如果其他人关心排名，那么他们也可能关心排名。
So, for example, if they're going to put in their pitch deck, "We're number one for this tool," and investors, they don't know that that doesn't convert.
因此，举例来说，如果他们要在宣传材料中说“我们是这个工具的第一名”，而投资者则不知道这不会转化。
So that might be something that we should care about.
所以这可能是我们应该关心的事情。
They should be number one for that tool.
它们应该是该工具的第一名。
If it's MQLs, so they just need people filling out lead forms.
如果是 MQL，那么他们只需要人们填写潜在客户表格。
Eli Schwartz: So really understanding who it is that they're trying to attract with SEO that's the metric we're going to use.
Eli Schwartz：因此，真正了解他们试图通过 SEO 吸引的人是谁，这就是我们要使用的指标。
And again, I don't know why SEO...
再说一次，我不知道为什么 SEO...
this happens with SEO but not any other channel.
SEO 会发生这种情况，但其他渠道不会发生这种情况。
No one doing paid marketing will ever say, "This is how many times I'm number one on this search, or this is how many clicks I get, or look at how much I spent." There's really a, "We spend this, and we're this efficient.
进行付费营销的人不会说：“这是我在该搜索中排名第一的次数，或者这是我获得的点击次数，或者看看我花了多少钱。”确实有这样一句话：“我们花了这个，我们的效率就这么高。
This is what we drive from that." And SEO really needs that same rigor.
这就是我们的动力所在。” SEO 确实需要同样的严格性。
Lenny Rachitsky: So what I'm hearing is look at if you're in B2B leads coming in through SEO, track that, or rank potentially if that's like a vanity thing, you can show investors and you're saying traffic alone, because usually in decks I see and investor updates almost always the metric I see is traffic we're getting through SEO.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以我听到的是看看你是否通过 SEO 进入 B2B 销售线索，跟踪它，或者潜在排名，如果这像虚荣的事情，你可以向投资者展示，你说的是流量，因为通常在我看到的平台和投资者更新中几乎总是我看到的指标是我们通过 SEO 获得的流量。
Eli Schwartz: Yeah, I mean, unless there's a reason for it.
Eli Schwartz：是的，我的意思是，除非有原因。
So if you're a media company and traffic means that that number keeps going up, then yes, it matters.
因此，如果您是一家媒体公司，并且流量意味着该数字不断上升，那么是的，这很重要。
But if you are driving leads and that traffic number goes up, you're not driving more leads from SEO.
但是，如果您正在吸引潜在客户并且流量数量上升，那么您并没有通过 SEO 吸引更多潜在客户。
You're getting worthless traffic.
你得到的是毫无价值的流量。
It doesn't help the business.
对生意没有帮助。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
Back to the question of just how long it takes just to give someone something here that they can tell...
回到这个问题，给某人一些他们可以讲述的东西需要多长时间......
that can tell them when it makes sense to keep going or move on.
这可以告诉他们何时继续或继续前进是有意义的。
Say you're just taking a shot at SEO, how long should you give it to make a decision this is working for us or not?
假设您只是尝试一下 SEO，您应该花多长时间来决定这对我们是否有效？
Or is it always, "There's always something here, keep working." How do you decide keep doing or not?
还是总是“这里总有东西，继续努力”。你如何决定继续做还是不做？
Eli Schwartz: When you're building out an SEO effort, and I'm going to keep going back to this, it's a product.
Eli Schwartz：当你进行 SEO 工作时，我将继续回到这一点，它是一种产品。
So you're building out a product and you're creating milestones.
因此，您正在构建产品并创造里程碑。
So you say we're...
所以你说我们...
it's going to take us this first month to ideate on what it is that we're building.
我们将用第一个月的时间来思考我们正在构建的内容。
It's going to...
它将...
In the second month, we're going to build out a PRD for engineers to start working on.
第二个月，我们将建立一个 PRD 供工程师开始工作。
In the third month, they're going to start working, and they're going to ship this.
第三个月，他们将开始工作，他们将发货。
Eli Schwartz: Now, if you start missing all those milestones, so I mean, this is a common problem in consulting in general, you miss all those milestones, and then some will say, "What's...
Eli Schwartz：现在，如果你开始错过所有这些里程碑，所以我的意思是，这是咨询行业的一个常见问题，你错过了所有这些里程碑，然后有些人会说，“什么......
We've been working together for six months, and we have nothing to show for it." And you can point very specifically to all those milestones that were missed.
我们已经一起工作了六个月，但我们没有什么可展示的。”您可以非常具体地指出所有错过的里程碑。
So that's the result of not shipping or not meeting the milestones that the SEO didn't work.
这就是未交付或未达到 SEO 不起作用的里程碑的结果。
Eli Schwartz: So as you're meeting those milestones, you can say, "Well, we launched, and our expectation was that after the first month of launching, we would have X amount of pages indexed.
Eli Schwartz：因此，当您实现这些里程碑时，您可以说：“好吧，我们启动了，我们的期望是启动第一个月后，我们将有 X 数量的页面被索引。
Did we meet, or did we miss that milestone?" And then you can say, "SEO is working at a small scale." And I've seen in many companies it takes a really long time, but eventually, when you look back, you see this hockey stick, but while you're in it, you don't necessarily see that.
我们是相遇了，还是错过了那个里程碑？”然后你可以说，“SEO 正在小范围内发挥作用。”我在很多公司看到这需要很长时间，但最终，当你回头看时，你会看到这个曲棍球棒，但当你身处其中时，你不一定会看到它。
Eli Schwartz: Okay.
伊莱·施瓦茨：好的。
Let me share an example of one that worked really quickly.
让我分享一个效果非常快的例子。
So this was also an interesting one, and I was at SurveyMonkey, and I was introduced to the CEO of Quora, who was interested in doing more SEO.
所以这也是一个有趣的事情，我在 SurveyMonkey，我被介绍给 Quora 的首席执行官，他对做更多的 SEO 感兴趣。
So Quora had never done SEO or never done SEO effectively from a product standpoint.
所以Quora从来没有做过SEO，或者从产品的角度来看从来没有有效地做过SEO。
And there were a couple of things I was able to recommend to them, and within three months they had quadruple traffic.
我向他们推荐了一些东西，三个月内他们的流量就增加了四倍。
So it really will depend on what is it that's holding things back.
所以这实际上取决于是什么阻碍了事情的发展。
In Quora's case, they weren't showing any answers.
就 Quora 而言，他们没有给出任何答案。
So they were really pushing to get people to log in before they saw any answers.
因此，他们确实在努力让人们在看到任何答案之前登录。
Eli Schwartz: So I encourage them to show the answers.
Eli Schwartz：所以我鼓励他们给出答案。
Yes, they were going to be giving way answers for free, but they were also going to be giving answers to Google.
是的，他们将免费提供答案，但他们也将向谷歌提供答案。
So that was number one.
所以这是第一。
That they were able to quadruple traffic.
他们能够将流量增加四倍。
And the second thing is they had no way that Google could navigate within the site.
第二件事是他们无法让谷歌在网站内导航。
So when you came to Quora, and it's like this again, so they reversed the suggestion I made, but I think it was 12 years ago.
所以当你来到 Quora 时，又是这样，所以他们推翻了我提出的建议，但我认为那是 12 年前的事了。
So when you came to Quora, and when you come to Quora today, you see related questions.
所以当你来到 Quora 时，当你今天来到 Quora 时，你会看到相关的问题。
So you see a question and then there's related questions.
所以你看到一个问题，然后有相关的问题。
And that's the way a bot or a human will navigate through the site.
这就是机器人或人类浏览网站的方式。
Eli Schwartz: If they create a sitemap, they did this in the past, and if Quora's listening, you should do this again.
Eli Schwartz：如果他们创建了站点地图，他们过去就这样做过，如果 Quora 正在倾听，你应该再这样做一次。
If you create a categorized sitemap where you can say, "These are all the questions on health and from the sitemap, again, it's HTML sitemap, not just an XML sitemap and way even a user can navigate through it.
如果您创建一个分类站点地图，您可以说：“这些都是关于健康的问题，并且来自站点地图，再说一遍，它是 HTML 站点地图，而不仅仅是 XML 站点地图以及用户可以浏览它的方式。
This is health, and this is health page one and health page two, and you can navigate through this entire site.
这是健康，这是健康页面第一和健康页面第二，您可以浏览整个网站。
Then a search engine can navigate through the entire site, and all of the questions and answers are discoverable." So when I made that suggestion to them, within a couple of months, they were able to quadruple traffic.
然后搜索引擎就可以浏览整个网站，并且所有问题和答案都可以被发现。”因此，当我向他们提出这个建议时，几个月内，他们的流量就增加了四倍。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much here, and there's so many valuable insights.
Lenny Rachitsky：这里有很多东西，有很多有价值的见解。
One that I think is really recurring that I think is really important to people is the point that you're making about your SEO content pages should solve...
我认为对人们来说非常重要的一个反复出现的问题是，你所做的关于 SEO 内容页面应该解决的问题......
should be a product, AKA should solve problems for people as they're trying to understand the space and the potential problem they have.
应该是一个产品，又名应该为人们解决问题，因为他们试图了解空间和他们所面临的潜在问题。
Lenny Rachitsky: So correct me if I'm wrong, but kind of the advice you're sharing is there's less opportunity in just generating tons of blog posts that just have a bunch of content.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果我错了，请纠正我，但您分享的建议是，仅仅生成大量内容丰富的博客文章的机会较少。
And the opportunity is more things like Zapier and Canva with templates and Notion and Quora where it's just like, "Here's the answer." It's just like actually help them solve the problem.
机会更多的是 Zapier 和 Canva 等带有模板的东西，还有 Notion 和 Quora，就像“这就是答案”。就像实际帮助他们解决问题一样。
And with that, "Here's how our product help you solve that problem further." Is that...
随之而来的是，“以下是我们的产品如何帮助您进一步解决该问题的方法。”难道是……
Eli Schwartz: It's really building a product around what the company is attempting to monetize.
Eli Schwartz：这实际上是围绕公司试图盈利的产品来构建产品。
So Canva is building templates because then they're going on to monetize that templates by having other people build off those templates with upgrades and subscriptions.
Canva 正在构建模板，因为他们将通过让其他人通过升级和订阅来构建这些模板来通过这些模板获利。
But if a company was...
但如果一家公司...
Let's say there was an enterprise version of Canva, and they didn't monetize those templates, so putting out a bunch of free content on the internet that just looked good wouldn't benefit.
假设有一个企业版的 Canva，并且他们没有通过这些模板获利，因此在互联网上发布一堆看起来不错的免费内容不会受益。
So it always comes down to what is it.
所以它总是归结为它是什么。
What is the product that you want to use?
您想使用什么产品？
So going to mention the templates did at SurveyMonkey, so the survey product.
所以要提到 SurveyMonkey 的模板，以及调查产品。
Eli Schwartz: If someone looked for a template of a survey, they wanted to make a survey.
Eli Schwartz：如果有人寻找调查模板，他们就会想要进行一项调查。
So we were not a survey product, and we just monetized off the survey templates that would not have done anything for us.
所以我们不是一个调查产品，我们只是通过调查模板来货币化，而这些模板对我们没有任何作用。
So copying someone else's version of programmatic doesn't do anything.
因此，复制别人的程序化版本没有任何作用。
And generally, doing programmatic for the sake of programmatic, so just to have content, wouldn't do anything unless that programmatic fed you into exactly what your product did.
一般来说，为了程序化而做程序化，所以仅仅拥有内容，不会做任何事情，除非程序化让你准确地了解你的产品所做的事情。
So Zapier, they did programmatic.
所以 Zapier，他们采取了程序化的方式。
It feeds you into making other zaps between different products.
它可以帮助您在不同产品之间进行其他转换。
Tinder, we did programmatic.
Tinder，我们采用程序化方式。
Eli Schwartz: It fed you into, "Oh, well, you would like to solve your lonely...
Eli Schwartz：它让你陷入，“哦，好吧，你想解决你的孤独......
We showed you that your loneliness problem is solvable in the city you're in.
我们向您表明，您的孤独问题在您所在的城市是可以解决的。
You have to solve that problem by downloading the Tinder app." And I've never used Tinder, only used it from a marketing standpoint, but Tinder gates you.
你必须通过下载 Tinder 应用来解决这个问题。”我从来没有使用过 Tinder，只是从营销的角度使用它，但 Tinder 挡住了你。
So if you'd like to get the advanced Tinder experience, you have to pay.
因此，如果您想获得高级 Tinder 体验，则必须付费。
And again, they're...
再说一次，他们是...
it's all part of that buyer journey, and anything you're building SEO for, it has to be a piece of that buyer journey.
这是买家旅程的一部分，而您为之构建 SEO 的任何内容都必须是买家旅程的一部分。
So programmatic, blog posts, anything you're doing, if there is no product journey for it, there's no user journey, it just stops.
因此，程序化、博客文章、你正在做的任何事情，如果没有产品旅程，就没有用户旅程，它就会停止。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's an amazing clarification.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个令人惊奇的澄清。
So again, it's another point you've been making of traffic alone is not valuable if it doesn't convert.
再说一次，这是您一直强调的另一个观点，即如果不转化，流量本身就没有价值。
And so you can look at a Canva, you can look at Notion at Airtable with all these templates, copy that.
所以你可以看看 Canva，你可以看看 Airtable 上的 Notion 以及所有这些模板，复制它。
But if that isn't the thing people, will buy from you and monetize it's not going to be worth doing.
但如果这不是人们会从你那里购买并货币化的东西，那么就不值得这样做。
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
Will buy from you and monetize.
将从您那里购买并获利。
It's not going to be worth doing.
这不值得做。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I'm excited to chat with Christina Gilbert, the founder of OneSchema, one of our longtime podcast sponsors.
我很高兴能与 OneSchema 的创始人 Christina Gilbert 聊天，OneSchema 是我们的长期播客赞助商之一。
Hi, Christina.
嗨，克里斯蒂娜。
Christina Gilbert: Yes.
克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：是的。
Thank you for having me on, Lenny.
谢谢你邀请我参加，莱尼。
Lenny Rachitsky: What is the latest with OneSchema?
Lenny Rachitsky：OneSchema 的最新动态是什么？
I know you now work with some of my favorite companies, like Ramp, Vanta Scale, and Watershed.
我知道您现在与一些我最喜欢的公司合作，例如 Ramp、Vanta Scale 和 Watershed。
I heard that you just launched a new product to help product teams import CSVs from especially tricky systems, like ERPs.
我听说你们刚刚推出了一款新产品，帮助产品团队从 ERP 等特别棘手的系统导入 CSV。
Christina Gilbert: Yes, so we just launched OneSchema File Feeds, which allows you to build an integration with any system in 15 minutes as long as you can export a CSV to an SFTP folder.
Christina Gilbert：是的，所以我们刚刚推出了 OneSchema File Feeds，只要您可以将 CSV 导出到 SFTP 文件夹，您就可以在 15 分钟内与任何系统构建集成。
We see our customers all the time getting stuck with hacks and workarounds, and the product teams that we work with don't have to turn down prospects because their systems are too hard to integrate with.
我们经常看到我们的客户陷入黑客攻击和解决方法的困境，而与我们合作的产品团队不必因为他们的系统太难集成而拒绝潜在客户。
We allow our customers to offer thousands of integrations without involving their engineering team at all.
我们允许客户提供数千种集成，而无需他们的工程团队参与。
Lenny Rachitsky: I can tell you that if my team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to be able to take this off my roadmap, and instead use something like OneSchema, and not just to build it, but also to maintain it forever?
Lenny Rachitsky：我可以告诉你，如果我的团队必须构建这样的集成，那么如果能够将其从我的路线图上删除，而使用 OneSchema 之类的东西，并且不仅是构建它，而且还永远维护它，那该有多好？
Christina Gilbert: Absolutely, Lenny.
克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：当然，莱尼。
We've heard so many horror stories of multi-day outages from even just a handful of ad records.
我们已经从少量的广告记录中听到了许多多天停机的恐怖故事。
We are laser-focused on integration reliability to help teams end all of those distractions that come up with integrations.
我们高度关注集成可靠性，以帮助团队消除集成带来的所有干扰。
We have a built-in validation layer that stops any bad data from entering your system, and OneSchema will notify your team immediately of any data that looks incorrect.
我们有一个内置的验证层，可以阻止任何不良数据进入您的系统，并且 OneSchema 将立即通知您的团队任何看起来不正确的数据。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道导入不正确的数据会给您的客户带来各种痛苦，并很快失去他们的信任。
Christina, thank you for joining us and if you want to learn more, head on over to OneSchema.co, that's OneSchema.co. Okay, so coming back to AI and its impact on SEO, can you use AI to help you with this, and use AI to create content for you?
Christina，感谢您加入我们，如果您想了解更多信息，请访问 OneSchema.co，那就是 OneSchema.co。好吧，那么回到人工智能及其对 SEO 的影响，你能用人工智能来帮助你解决这个问题，并用人工智能为你创建内容吗？
Eli Schwartz: AI is a tool.
Eli Schwartz：人工智能是一种工具。
Everyone says AI is a tool, it's not a solution.
大家都说人工智能是一个工具，而不是一个解决方案。
You can use AI to create content if the content you're creating is a part of that journey.
如果您正在创建的内容是该旅程的一部分，您可以使用 AI 来创建内容。
For example, before AI content really came on the scene, because AI's been around for a while, Jasper's been around for a while, Writer's been around for a while before ChatGPT.
例如，在AI内容真正出现之前，因为AI已经存在了一段时间，Jasper已经存在了一段时间，Writer在ChatGPT之前已经存在了一段时间。
Before these tools, a lot of ways that companies created content for cheap is they went on Fiverr, and they went on Upwork, and they just created content.
在这些工具出现之前，公司以低廉的价格创建内容的很多方式是他们在 Fiverr 上、在 Upwork 上，他们只是创建内容。
Eli Schwartz: A lot of that content, completely worthless.
Eli Schwartz：很多这样的内容，完全没有价值。
If you're just creating content for the sake of content, and you paid someone on Upwork $50 for their content, now you can use an AI tool and just create the content, the same worthless content, for free.
如果你只是为了内容而创建内容，并且你在 Upwork 上向某人支付了 50 美元的内容，那么现在你可以使用 AI 工具，免费创建内容，同样是毫无价值的内容。
AI as a tool is a tool creating something that's not necessarily useful for the end journey of the company and for the user journey in general.
人工智能作为一种工具，它所创造的东西不一定对公司的最终旅程和一般用户的旅程有用。
However, if the content you were creating was pretty useful, and now you're using AI to create really useful content for cheaper and better, of course, you can use it.
但是，如果您创建的内容非常有用，并且现在您正在使用人工智能以更便宜、更好的方式创建真正有用的内容，那么您当然可以使用它。
Eli Schwartz: An example of a place you can use AI content is if you're an e-commerce site and you're selling your own products, of course, you can use AI content to write product descriptions.
Eli Schwartz：可以使用人工智能内容的一个例子是，如果你是一个电子商务网站并且你正在销售自己的产品，当然，你可以使用人工智能内容来编写产品描述。
It's not a content website.
这不是一个内容网站。
There's a lot of big companies out there, and if anybody wants to look at some of the e-commerce sites and how they do SEO, a lot of them have large SEO teams.
那里有很多大公司，如果有人想了解一些电子商务网站以及他们如何进行 SEO，其中很多都拥有大型 SEO 团队。
The typical JCPenney, the Nordstroms, the Macy's, they have a lot of content on their category pages, but if you look at the keywords that drive traffic to those pages, it's the products on the pages.
典型的 JCPenney、Nordstrom、Macy's，他们的类别页面上有很多内容，但如果你看看为这些页面带来流量的关键词，就会发现页面上的产品。
Eli Schwartz: If you're looking for shoes, the fact that a Macys.com page will have a lot of content about what shoes do doesn't do anything for the user.
Eli Schwartz：如果您正在寻找鞋子，Macys.com 页面上包含大量有关鞋子用途的内容，这一事实对用户没有任何帮助。
They're just looking for shoes, and then there's shoes on the page.
他们只是在寻找鞋子，然后页面上就有鞋子。
I think Macy's actually ranks pretty well on those kinds of things.
我认为梅西百货在这些方面实际上排名很高。
Using AI content to write more fluff content that's not necessary would just be a waste of time.
使用人工智能内容来编写更多不必要的内容只会浪费时间。
Eli Schwartz: Using AI content to feed in a product, and describe what that product is, and maybe some features of that product which help a user, that's not hurting your SEO, because what you're trying to optimize for is the product and the product name itself.
Eli Schwartz：使用人工智能内容来输入产品，并描述该产品是什么，也许该产品的一些功能可以帮助用户，这不会损害您的搜索引擎优化，因为您要优化的是产品和产品名称本身。
Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。
Basically, don't use AI to generate entire blog posts.
基本上，不要使用人工智能来生成整个博客文章。
I know people are doing this all over the place, but absolutely leverage AI to help you add to existing pages, descriptions, titles, things like that, which I can see why Google, Google would've no idea that you were helped to write this thing with AI, right, if it's just a small part of the page versus the entire page?
我知道人们到处都在这样做，但绝对利用人工智能来帮助你添加到现有的页面、描述、标题等类似的东西，我可以理解为什么谷歌，谷歌不会知道你是用人工智能来帮助你写这个东西的，对吧，如果它只是页面的一小部分而不是整个页面？
Eli Schwartz: In their documentation, they say that AI itself is not the problem.
Eli Schwartz：在他们的文档中，他们说人工智能本身不是问题。
It's the helpfulness, the usefulness of the content that would be a problem.
问题在于内容的有用性和实用性。
Lenny Rachitsky: You don't have to name names or reveal anything, but do you know of a bunch of companies using AI now to generate tons of high successful pages, high converting pages in some way?
Lenny Rachitsky：你不必点名或透露任何内容，但你知道有很多公司现在使用人工智能以某种方式生成大量成功的页面、高转化率的页面吗？
In this way?
这样？
Eli Schwartz: There's this hatred of AI content by users in general.
Eli Schwartz：用户普遍讨厌人工智能内容。
I think once companies declare that they're using AI, people get upset about it.
我认为一旦公司宣布他们正在使用人工智能，人们就会对此感到不安。
It was a Red Ventures company, I think it was CNET that said they were using AI to create content.
这是一家 Red Ventures 公司，我认为是 CNET 说他们正在使用人工智能来创建内容。
I think they got in trouble because they said they're using AI to create content, but if they had not said they're using AI to create content, I think their entire model would've been very successful.
我认为他们遇到了麻烦，因为他们说他们正在使用人工智能来创建内容，但如果他们没有说他们正在使用人工智能来创建内容，我认为他们的整个模式将会非常成功。
Eli Schwartz: There's no reason you can't take in, they take 10 products, and they want to review 10 different products.
Eli Schwartz：你没有理由不能接受，他们接受了 10 种产品，并且他们想要评论 10 种不同的产品。
There's no reason you can't tie that all together, have AI write the original piece of content, and then have a human editor just review it.
你没有理由不能将所有这些结合在一起，让人工智能编写原始内容，然后让人类编辑对其进行审阅。
I don't know, years ago, it's not AI, but it's sort of like AI, but there are sports websites that will take in a lot of the things that happen in the sports game to merge it all together into a piece of content.
我不知道，几年前，这不是人工智能，但它有点像人工智能，但有些体育网站会吸收体育比赛中发生的很多事情，将它们合并成一个内容。
Eli Schwartz: If you look at any earnings reports on public companies, it's sort of the same thing.
Eli Schwartz：如果你看一下上市公司的收益报告，你会发现这是一样的。
Their company will issue, they'll file their earnings report, and then now it's AI.
他们的公司将发布，他们将提交收益报告，然后现在是人工智能。
Before AI, it was basically like Mad Libs kind of content.
在人工智能出现之前，它基本上就像疯狂的自由之类的内容。
It would extract pieces of the earnings report and then it would write a blog post, which is actually fairly useful.
它会提取收益报告的一部分，然后写一篇博客文章，这实际上相当有用。
I don't think there's an issue with it itself.
我不认为它本身有什么问题。
I don't think users have an issue with it.
我不认为用户对此有任何问题。
Eli Schwartz: I think if you read that old piece of content, again, on earnings reports, it's pretty obvious that it wasn't written by a financial journalist, but it was useful.
Eli Schwartz：我认为，如果你再次阅读收益报告中的旧内容，很明显它不是由财经记者撰写的，但它很有用。
You got a quick summary, you didn't have to go into the SEC and read an earnings report.
你可以得到一个快速的总结，你不必去美国证券交易委员会阅读收益报告。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's this guy, Noah Smith, he's on Twitter, he's got a newsletter called No Opinions.
Lenny Rachitsky：有一个人，Noah Smith，他在 Twitter 上，他有一份名为“No Opinions”的时事通讯。
It's awesome.
太棒了。
He had this tweet about how we're approaching an age of a ton of slop of content, just a lot of really bad content generated by AI for better or worse, this is related to SEO, but it makes me think about just how much bad stuff we're going to see.
他发了一条推文，说我们正在接近一个充斥着大量内容的时代，无论好坏，人工智能都会生成很多非常糟糕的内容，这与搜索引擎优化有关，但这让我思考我们将会看到多少糟糕的内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: To your point, it doesn't matter whether it was generated by AI or not, people will gravitate towards and Google will gravitate towards stuff that is useful and good, whether it's written by people or not.
Lenny Rachitsky：就你的观点而言，无论它是否由人工智能生成，人们都会被吸引，谷歌也会被有用和好的东西所吸引，无论它是否是由人编写的。
Eli Schwartz: This is a huge issue for Google, because the amount of content being created is enormous, and it's growing exponentially.
Eli Schwartz：这对 Google 来说是一个大问题，因为创建的内容数量巨大，而且呈指数级增长。
Google's trying to crawl everything.
谷歌正试图抓取一切。
They now have more content to crawl, which becomes more expensive for Google, and which is why you have this backlash by Google against many websites, because they're trying to clean the index to save their own costs and to protect the users from having to see this awful content.
他们现在有更多的内容可供抓取，这对谷歌来说变得更加昂贵，这就是为什么谷歌对许多网站产生强烈反对，因为他们试图清理索引以节省自己的成本并保护用户免于看到这些可怕的内容。
Lenny Rachitsky: The crazy thing for LLMs is now to be trained.
Lenny Rachitsky：对于法学硕士来说，最疯狂的事情就是接受培训。
They're trained on content on the internet in a big way, and they're struggling with not training their LLMs on stuff that AI has written because it becomes this, a bad direction that LLMs will go.
他们在很大程度上接受了互联网内容的培训，并且他们正在努力不对他们的法学硕士进行人工智能编写的内容培训，因为这成为法学硕士将会走向的一个糟糕的方向。
They're trained on themselves.
他们是自我训练的。
Anyway, something I wanted to come back to around AI, which is AI Overviews.
无论如何，我想回到人工智能周围，即人工智能概述。
I imagine many people are like, "How do I get into that answer?
我想很多人都会想，“我怎样才能得到这个答案呢？
How do I get my product into the answer that Google gives at the top?" Is that something you recommend people try to do?
我如何让我的产品进入谷歌在顶部给出的答案？”这是您建议人们尝试做的事情吗？
Is that something you can do?
这是你能做的事吗？
Eli Schwartz: I think of AI or AI Overviews as a branding exercise.
Eli Schwartz：我认为人工智能或人工智能概述是一种品牌推广活动。
Getting into the AI Overview, and Google has links, I mentioned this earlier that Google has links within the content, and I think a lot of what Google does is around potentially liability protection.
进入人工智能概述，谷歌有链接，我之前提到过谷歌在内容中有链接，我认为谷歌所做的很多事情都是围绕潜在的责任保护。
They're having links.
他们有链接。
They're saying, "Well, we didn't tell you to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge, this website, which we summarized, told you to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge," or, "We didn't plagiarize.
他们说，“好吧，我们没有告诉你从金门大桥跳下去，我们总结的这个网站告诉你从金门大桥跳下去”，或者，“我们没有抄袭。
We just linked to the piece of content.
我们刚刚链接到该内容。
We may have extracted more from the content than we were supposed to, and the law hasn't decided that yet, but we linked to it, so it's fair."
我们可能从内容中提取的内容比我们预期的要多，法律还没有决定这一点，但我们链接到了它，所以这是公平的。”
Eli Schwartz: Right now, Google has these links in the content, and it sort of links off of it.
Eli Schwartz：现在，谷歌在内容中包含这些链接，并且从内容中删除了一些链接。
I did a survey on LinkedIn, and I was surprised by the answer.
我在 LinkedIn 上做了一个调查，我对答案感到惊讶。
I thought most people did not click on the links.
我认为大多数人都没有点击链接。
I got a couple hundred responses, and it's sort of 50/50 and based on my SurveyMonkey experience.
我收到了几百条回复，根据我的 SurveyMonkey 经验，比例是 50/50。
It's not a statistically significant survey in general, but it will never go to 99% and one.
一般来说，这不是一项具有统计意义的调查，但它永远不会达到 99% 和 1。
That's fairly indicative that people are clicking the links, which surprises me, because I don't think that the links are necessarily meant by Google to be useful, which means that AI Overviews is essentially duplicating search results.
这相当表明人们正在点击这些链接，这让我感到惊讶，因为我不认为谷歌认为这些链接一定是有用的，这意味着人工智能概述本质上是在复制搜索结果。
Eli Schwartz: You have this AI Overview which summarizes, then you have a link so you can link off of it, and then beneath it, you sort of have the exact same thing.
Eli Schwartz：你有这个人工智能概述，它进行了总结，然后你有一个链接，这样你就可以链接到它，然后在它的下面，你有完全相同的东西。
That's the challenge that Google has to work through.
这就是谷歌必须应对的挑战。
For a company to show up in AI Overview, it's a brand challenge.
对于一家公司来说，出现在《人工智能概览》中，是一个品牌挑战。
If your link shows up there, then you likely were showing up beneath it in the ranking results, so you've already done the work you're supposed to do.
如果您的链接显示在那里，那么您可能会显示在排名结果中的下方，因此您已经完成了应该做的工作。
Eli Schwartz: If you're showing up in the AI Overview mentioned as a brand, like, these are the top CRM tools, you're showing up as a brand, that means you've exercised brand efforts and it's working out.
Eli Schwartz：如果您在提到的人工智能概述中作为一个品牌出现，例如，这些是顶级的 CRM 工具，那么您作为一个品牌出现，这意味着您已经进行了品牌努力并且正在发挥作用。
I don't know that companies necessarily want their content to show up because they're giving away their content for free.
我不知道公司一定希望他们的内容出现，因为他们免费赠送他们的内容。
They want to be showing up in a way that benefits them.
他们希望以对自己有利的方式出现。
If you show up as a brand, you've done good branding, but if you show up as a link, it means Google has stolen your content, and people may or may not click off of it.
如果你以品牌的形式出现，那么你已经做了很好的品牌宣传，但如果你以链接的形式出现，则意味着谷歌窃取了你的内容，人们可能会也可能不会点击它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Along this lines of brand and SEO, do you have any...
Lenny Rachitsky：沿着品牌和 SEO 的思路，您有什么...
That's always this question of are we investing in brand?
这始终是一个问题：我们是否投资于品牌？
Do we just want people to be aware we exist, or are we trying to actually drive conversion?
我们只是想让人们知道我们的存在，还是我们试图真正推动转化？
Any advice on how to think about brand building and SEO, especially with this world of AI?
关于如何思考品牌建设和搜索引擎优化（SEO），特别是在人工智能的世界里，有什么建议吗？
Eli Schwartz: The biggest myth in SEO is that you could just build links, and link building is the secret source and the secret sauce to growing your SEO footprint.
Eli Schwartz：SEO 中最大的神话是您可以只构建链接，而链接构建是秘密来源和扩大 SEO 足迹的秘密武器。
That's totally wrong, because the way most people build links is they buy these guest posts, or they pay for links on low authority websites that sort of look like they might have authority, and it doesn't really benefit anyone because no one's reading these sites.
这是完全错误的，因为大多数人建立链接的方式是购买这些来宾帖子，或者他们为低权威网站上的链接付费，这些网站看起来像是他们可能拥有权威，而且它并没有真正让任何人受益，因为没有人阅读这些网站。
Eli Schwartz: It's funny that everyone complained about Google as this really, really smart, all-knowing LLM, and at the same time, they think they're dumb enough to fall for these guest posts that are on websites that no one really read.
Eli Schwartz：有趣的是，每个人都抱怨谷歌是一个非常非常聪明、无所不知的法学硕士，但与此同时，他们认为自己愚蠢到会相信这些在没有人真正阅读的网站上的客座帖子。
The right way to build links is to build a brand.
建立链接的正确方法是建立品牌。
It comes part and parcel of what you're trying to do.
它是你想要做的事情的重要组成部分。
If you're building links, and going back to all the SaaS examples we talked about, so if you've created a bunch of content that is not relevant for the product you're trying to sell, building links to the content that doesn't really benefit the product, doesn't really benefit, the links don't benefit the product.
如果你正在构建链接，回到我们讨论过的所有 SaaS 示例，那么如果你创建了一堆与你想要销售的产品无关的内容，那么构建的链接不会真正使产品受益，不会真正使产品受益，这些链接不会使产品受益。
Eli Schwartz: If you can build this product that's awesome and everyone loves and wants to use, and you get not links, but mentions, and links might be mentions now, because the way a link before LLMs and the link 10 years ago was actually an HTML link.
Eli Schwartz：如果你能构建出这个非常棒的产品，每个人都喜欢并想要使用，你得到的不是链接，而是提及，而链接现在可能会被提及，因为法学硕士之前的链接和 10 年前的链接实际上是 HTML 链接。
Now, Google can read content.
现在，Google 可以读取内容。
They can say, "Well, you've been mentioned here," that's pretty good.
他们可以说，“嗯，这里提到了你”，这很好。
Now, we acknowledge that this might be the brand, and this might be the match for that kind of thing.
现在，我们承认这可能是品牌，这可能与此类事物相匹配。
Eli Schwartz: That's helping to build that brand.
Eli Schwartz：这有助于打造该品牌。
In general, I think of any SEO effort as promoting a brand, building up a brand, rather than building a product, and then separately building out an SEO effort, which has content that may not be relevant, and links from websites that are certainly not relevant to content that's not relevant.
一般来说，我认为任何 SEO 工作都是推广品牌、建立品牌，而不是建立产品，然后单独建立 SEO 工作，其中包含可能不相关的内容，以及来自肯定与不相关内容不相关的网站的链接。
It all comes together as being one big effort.
这一切汇集在一起是一项巨大的努力。
The same thing you'll do on PR, you'll do for SEO.
你在公关上做同样的事情，你也会在搜索引擎优化上做同样的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Okay.
好的。
I'm glad we touched that.
我很高兴我们触及了这一点。
There's a few other directions I want to go, so I'm going to bounce around a little bit and cover some of the other stuff I wanted to extract from your deep experience in this space.
我还有其他一些方向，所以我将稍微讨论一下，并介绍一些我想从您在这个领域的深刻经验中提取的其他内容。
One is you've mentioned this idea of programmatic SEO a couple times versus editorial.
一是你已经多次提到过程序化 SEO 与社论的想法。
Maybe first, just clarify what those two directions are, just for people that don't exactly know what you mean.
也许首先，请澄清这两个方向是什么，仅供那些不完全了解您的意思的人使用。
Then two, what's your general advice for which direction to go, programmatic or editorial?
那么第二个问题，您对走向哪个方向（程序性还是编辑性）的一般建议是什么？
Eli Schwartz: It might be obvious at this point, but I'm going to say it's dependent on the user, but essentially, what programmatic is is it's taking a bunch of data sources and building out a page that is a combination of all these data sources.
Eli Schwartz：在这一点上这可能是显而易见的，但我想说这取决于用户，但本质上，程序化是获取一堆数据源并构建一个由所有这些数据源组合而成的页面。
In my book, I talk about two of my favorite programmatic SEO companies.
在我的书中，我谈到了我最喜欢的两家程序化 SEO 公司。
One of them was created by a past, well, it's not created, the strategy was created by a past guest of yours, Luc Levesque, who introduced us, and that was TripAdvisor.
其中一个是由过去创建的，嗯，它不是创建的，该策略是由您过去的一位客人 Luc Levesque 创建的，他介绍了我们，那就是 TripAdvisor。
Eli Schwartz: TripAdvisor took in all these data sources of, "This is the hotel, these are the cities," and then it allowed UGC to combine into one comprehensive page about each property.
Eli Schwartz：TripAdvisor 吸收了所有这些数据源，“这是酒店，这些是城市”，然后它允许 UGC 将每个酒店合并成一个综合页面。
TripAdvisor did not write a piece of content on every single hotel.
TripAdvisor 并没有对每家酒店都写一篇内容。
They don't write a piece of content on, "Here's this long form blog post as an influencer on the Waldoff Astoria of New York, and here's a long form blog post about the Marriott Marquis in San Francisco."
他们不会写这样的内容：“这是一篇关于纽约沃尔多夫阿斯托利亚影响者的长篇博客文章，这是一篇关于旧金山万豪侯爵酒店的长篇博客文章。”
Eli Schwartz: They built it all from a programmatic standpoint.
Eli Schwartz：他们从程序化的角度构建了这一切。
They took all these data sets, they took all the countries in the world, they took all the properties, and they merged into one comprehensive page, which has dominated the top of search results since the beginning of the time.
他们拿走了所有这些数据集，他们拿走了世界上所有的国家，他们拿走了所有的财产，他们合并成一个综合页面，从一开始就占据了搜索结果的顶部。
They still own it.
他们仍然拥有它。
That team has cycled through many, many leaders, many different, a lot of different things, and they're still number ones.
这支球队经历了很多很多的领导者，很多不同的人，很多不同的事情，但他们仍然是第一。
It's the strategy that has allowed them to build that brand and to dominate it.
正是这种战略使他们能够建立该品牌并占据主导地位。
Eli Schwartz: The second example is Zillow.
Eli Schwartz：第二个例子是 Zillow。
What Zillow did is they solved an early problem many years ago in the real estate space, which is no one understood what the value of a piece of property was.
Zillow 所做的是他们解决了多年前房地产领域的一个早期问题，即没有人了解一块房产的价值是多少。
Zillow took in all of those data sets.
Zillow 吸收了所有这些数据集。
They got, some of them are government data sets, some of them are their own comparison data sets based on other home sales.
他们得到的，有些是政府的数据集，有些是他们自己根据其他房屋销售情况进行的比较数据集。
The government can say a house is worth one price, and based on their comparison, Zillow can completely disagree with it.
政府可以说一栋房子值一个价格，但根据他们的比较，Zillow 可以完全不同意它。
Eli Schwartz: They're building in these data sets, and they're taking photos from realtors, they're taking neighborhood data, they're taking school data, and that's a programmatic SEO page.
Eli Schwartz：他们正在构建这些数据集，他们从房地产经纪人那里拍摄照片，他们正在拍摄社区数据，他们正在拍摄学校数据，这是一个程序化的 SEO 页面。
SEO is the only channel to bring in traffic to each one of these pages.
SEO 是为这些页面带来流量的唯一渠道。
They're not going to do paid traffic for my house, they're not going to do paid traffic for your house.
他们不会为我的房子提供付费流量，也不会为你的房子提供付费流量。
The only way someone would find that page on Zillow, either they start at Zillow.com and then just navigate through it, or they Google it.
人们在 Zillow 上找到该页面的唯一方法是，要么从 Zillow.com 开始，然后浏览它，要么通过 Google 进行搜索。
Those are programmatic SEO efforts.
这些都是程序化的 SEO 工作。
Eli Schwartz: On the flip side is editorial.
Eli Schwartz：另一方面是社论。
Editorial would be, in TripAdvisor's case, writing out that long form piece of content around each hotel, each city, and all the things they've done.
对于 TripAdvisor 来说，社论就是围绕每家酒店、每座城市以及他们所做的所有事情写出长篇内容。
Zillow would be the same.
Zillow 也是一样。
Zillow would take 500 million properties and write out an editorial piece of content.
Zillow 将获取 5 亿资产并撰写社论内容。
Neither of those would be a fit for their model, and it would be extremely expensive.
这些都不适合他们的模型，而且价格非常昂贵。
Say each piece of content would cost a thousand dollars, that would be cost prohibitive for anyone to do.
假设每条内容要花费一千美元，这对任何人来说都是昂贵的。
Eli Schwartz: Going back to my distinction based on the user, what is it that the user's looking for?
Eli Schwartz：回到我对用户的区分，用户在寻找什么？
Is the user looking for the value of a home?
用户是在寻找房屋的价值吗？
They don't need a long form piece of content.
他们不需要长篇内容。
They need a piece of content or a page that just says what the value of that home is.
他们需要一段内容或一个页面来说明该房屋的价值。
TripAdvisor's case, they're looking for a single thing, a rating, or maybe they need some of that UGC, but really, they're looking for that rating.
以 TripAdvisor 为例，他们正在寻找单一的东西，即评级，或者也许他们需要一些 UGC，但实际上，他们正在寻找该评级。
That long form piece of content, there's a purpose for it, but not on TripAdvisor's site.
这么长的内容是有目的的，但在 TripAdvisor 网站上却没有。
Eli Schwartz: Understanding, what is it that the user needs will help solve, do you approach this from an editorial standpoint, or do you approach this from a programmatic standpoint?
Eli Schwartz：理解，用户需要帮助解决什么问题，你是从编辑的角度来处理这个问题，还是从程序化的角度来处理这个问题？
Some of the companies I mentioned earlier, like G2 and Capterra, which are completely being disrupted, so they're being disrupted by editorial, but they're also being disrupted by Google itself with their AI Overviews.
我之前提到的一些公司，比如 G2 和 Capterra，它们完全被颠覆了，所以它们被社论颠覆了，但他们也被谷歌本身的人工智能概述颠覆了。
Eli Schwartz: If you look for the top CRM tools, you have G2 or you have Capterra, but you also have Forbes writing out a long form piece of content on what Salesforce is, what HubSpot is, and that's probably unnecessary.
Eli Schwartz：如果您寻找顶级 CRM 工具，您可以选择 G2 或 Capterra，但您也可以让《福布斯》撰写长篇内容，介绍什么是 Salesforce、什么是 HubSpot，这可能是不必要的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think generally, you would, programmatic is the better path and the most common success path is what I'm hearing.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为一般来说，程序化是更好的途径，我所听到的也是最常见的成功途径。
What are things you need in place to be successful in programmatic SEO?
要在程序化 SEO 中取得成功，您需要具备哪些条件？
Like basically, you just need some sort of data source that you own.
基本上，您只需要您拥有的某种数据源。
Is that just...
难道这只是...
What's a checklist of like, "Here's what tells you you have a big opportunity here?"
类似于“这告诉你这里有一个巨大的机会”的清单是什么？
Eli Schwartz: Programmatic is the right solution when there's scale and when there's a user use case.
Eli Schwartz：当存在规模和用户用例时，程序化是正确的解决方案。
If there is not, you create scale for nothing.
如果没有，你就白白创造了规模。
An earlier version of programmatic, again, pre a lot of the internet companies now, is building out a piece of content for every single zip code in America.
程序化的早期版本，同样是现在许多互联网公司之前的版本，正在为美国的每个邮政编码构建一段内容。
Say you offer some sort of local product.
假设您提供某种本地产品。
You would build out a page for every single zip code that is, in theory, programmatic, but users don't look for it, and Google has completely disrupted that with their own local products.
你可以为每一个邮政编码构建一个页面，理论上来说，这是程序化的，但用户不会寻找它，而谷歌已经用自己的本地产品彻底颠覆了这一点。
Eli Schwartz: Programmatic can always be something.
Eli Schwartz：程序化总是可以的。
I see programmatic mistakes all the time, where websites look at, they say, "Look, we're making reviews of software.
我经常看到程序性错误，网站会说，“看，我们正在对软件进行评论。
There's 10,000 different softwares in the world.
世界上有 10,000 种不同的软件。
We're just going to make out a page for each one and we're going to combine it with, I don't know, a city." You can make programmatic pages like that, but there's no use case.
我们将为每个人制作一页，然后将其与（我不知道）一座城市结合起来。”您可以制作这样的编程页面，但没有用例。
Really knowing what programmatic solution to use comes down to, "Is this something that someone would actually be looking for?
真正知道要使用什么程序化解决方案可以归结为“这是有人真正想要的东西吗？
Does this page itself provide a solution?" Zapier provided a solution because someone was looking for that combination, but there are many tools like Zapier, which try to be Zapier, but they're not looking for that solution.
这个页面本身提供了解决方案吗？” Zapier 提供了一个解决方案，因为有人在寻找这种组合，但是有很多像 Zapier 这样的工具，它们试图成为 Zapier，但他们并不是在寻找这种解决方案。
Going back to some of the template companies you mentioned, I don't think a lot of companies that make templates, they're making programmatic, but there's not a use case for every single one of those templates.
回到您提到的一些模板公司，我认为制作模板的公司并不多，他们正在制作程序化模板，但这些模板中的每一个都没有一个用例。
They've made programmatic for no .
他们已经实现了程序化。
Eli Schwartz: Again, SurveyMonkey was one where we had a fat head of templates we could make, but it wasn't a long tail.
Eli Schwartz：同样，SurveyMonkey 是一个我们可以制作大量模板的地方，但它的尾巴并不长。
We could make a hundred templates, but we couldn't make 10,000.
我们可以制作一百个模板，但无法制作一万个。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to do a rapid fire of SEO myths.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想快速阐述 SEO 神话。
Before I do that, I know that you spent a lot of time actually reading the recent ruling against Google and their whole deal with Apple, and you were telling me it revealed there were a lot of interesting stuff about their strategy and where search was going.
在我这样做之前，我知道您实际上花了很多时间阅读最近针对谷歌的裁决以及他们与苹果的整个交易，并且您告诉我，它揭示了有关他们的策略和搜索发展方向的许多有趣的内容。
Let's spend a little time here, just what did you learn doing that exercise?
让我们在这里花一点时间，通过这个练习你学到了什么？
Eli Schwartz: It's fascinating.
Eli Schwartz：这很有趣。
It's 286 pages.
有286页。
I basically read a book.
我基本上是看书的。
It was a verdict.
这是一个判决。
Eli Schwartz: I would say that the judge or the clerk that wrote this verdict has a better understanding how the SEO works and how digital marketing works than most people I meet in digital marketing.
Eli Schwartz：我想说，撰写此判决的法官或书记员比我在数字营销领域遇到的大多数人更了解搜索引擎优化 (SEO) 的运作方式以及数字营销的运作方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, I did not expect to hear that.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，我没想到会听到这个。
Eli Schwartz: Yeah.
伊莱·施瓦茨：是的。
This verdict explains how Google decides to rank a page.
该判决解释了 Google 如何决定对页面进行排名。
The verdict explains how the auction model works in ads, in Google Ads.
该裁决解释了竞价模式在广告和 Google Ads 中的运作方式。
I think that's fascinating.
我认为这很有趣。
Talked about the comparison between social media.
谈论社交媒体之间的比较。
This court really understood a lot of the questions that were posed to them.
这个法庭确实理解了向他们提出的很多问题。
For example, Google tried to say that they're not a monopoly because they're social media.
例如，谷歌试图说他们不是垄断者，因为他们是社交媒体。
The court analyzed that question and said, "Social media is not a comparison to Google search."
法院分析了这个问题并表示：“社交媒体不能与谷歌搜索相比较。”
Eli Schwartz: Google tried to say a lot of the things they did were non-monopolistic because there's alternatives like Bing.
Eli Schwartz：谷歌试图说他们所做的很多事情都是非垄断的，因为还有像 Bing 这样的替代品。
The court really analyzed a lot of these things.
法庭确实分析了很多这些事情。
Why I found it fascinating was, again, a lot of the testimony was public, is the summary of how the court put it all together in a verdict.
为什么我觉得它很有趣，再次强调，很多证词都是公开的，是法院如何将所有证词汇总到判决中的摘要。
A few of the things I learned is one, the market share, Google's market share.
我学到的一些东西之一就是市场份额，谷歌的市场份额。
That's been a number that no one really liked to talk about.
这是一个没有人真正喜欢谈论的数字。
Eli Schwartz: Google would say, "Oh, we think it's like 80%," because they didn't want to be viewed as a monopoly.
Eli Schwartz：谷歌会说，“哦，我们认为大约是 80%”，因为他们不想被视为垄断者。
Microsoft would say, "Well, maybe we have 20%." I just found a recent document from Microsoft where they claimed to have a lot of market share in search.
微软会说：“好吧，也许我们有 20%。”我刚刚发现微软最近的一份文件，他们声称在搜索领域拥有很大的市场份额。
In the verdict, it says that Google has 98% of mobile searches.
判决书中称，谷歌占据了98%的移动搜索份额。
I forget whether it said that the court said it, and it said Google didn't disagree, or that came from Google's own documentation, but 98% of mobile searches.
我忘了是不是说是法院这么说的，而且说谷歌没有不同意，还是来自谷歌自己的文档，但是98%的移动搜索。
Eli Schwartz: The thing that I thought was most fascinating from the verdict is how much the default partnerships that Google has contributes to Google's success.
Eli Schwartz：我认为判决中最令人着迷的是，谷歌默认的合作伙伴关系对谷歌的成功做出了多大贡献。
The plaintiff in the case was the Department of Justice suing Google for being a monopoly.
该案的原告是司法部，起诉谷歌垄断。
However, I don't know what the word is, but one of the complainants in this is this company, Neva, which was a search engine started by a past Google, I think it was like a head of research or something.
不过，我不知道这个词是什么，但其中一个投诉人是这家公司，Neva，这是一个由过去的谷歌创建的搜索引擎，我认为它就像一个研究主管什么的。
A senior person at Google created a new search engine.
谷歌的一位高级人员创建了一个新的搜索引擎。
Eli Schwartz: A lot of the trial was focused on how Neva could not be successful, despite having a better search engine, despite having a better experience for users, because they didn't have any of these default distribution agreements.
Eli Schwartz：很多试验都集中在 Neva 如何无法成功，尽管拥有更好的搜索引擎，尽管为用户提供了更好的体验，因为他们没有任何这些默认分发协议。
That's the part that I thought was most fascinating.
这是我认为最吸引人的部分。
Google has these default agreements with Apple, and they also have Chrome.
谷歌与苹果有这些默认协议，他们也有 Chrome。
Eli Schwartz: They have all these inputs into Google searches, which means that I don't think there's a chance, and this is the biggest takeaway, I don't think there's a chance that ChatGPT, or Perplexity, or Claude, or any of these other LLM startups, because they're startups now, even OpenAI is a startup with Microsoft's investments, still a startup.
Eli Schwartz：他们将所有这些投入到谷歌搜索中，这意味着我认为没有机会，这是最大的收获，我不认为 ChatGPT、Perplexity、Claude 或任何其他 LLM 初创公司有机会，因为他们现在是初创公司，甚至 OpenAI 是一家拥有微软投资的初创公司，仍然是一家初创公司。
I don't think they have a chance at really unseating Google purely from a quality standpoint.
我不认为他们有机会纯粹从质量的角度真正取代谷歌。
Eli Schwartz: That's what a lot of the documentation in this verdict is about is how much a force of habit, how much the brand, and how much the distribution agreements Google has, drives searchers to Google.
Eli Schwartz：这个判决中的很多文件都是关于习惯的力量、品牌的力量以及谷歌拥有多少分销协议在多大程度上推动搜索者使用谷歌的。
There were a couple of very interesting insights.
有一些非常有趣的见解。
One is that Bing tried to give itself to Apple for free, and Apple said there was absolutely no price that they would take to use Bing search within Apple.
一是Bing试图将自己免费提供给苹果，而苹果表示他们绝对不会在苹果内部使用Bing搜索而收取任何费用。
Eli Schwartz: Another one was Mozilla had a partnership with, I think it was Yahoo, and they did a rev share deal with Yahoo, and everyone switched back to Google.
Eli Schwartz：另一个是 Mozilla 与之建立了合作伙伴关系，我认为是雅虎，他们与雅虎达成了收益分成协议，然后每个人都转回了谷歌。
When people say, "Well, SEO is dead, everyone's going to go to OpenAI," and you just look at the 25 years of Google's existence and what they've built, I really don't think so.
当人们说，“好吧，SEO 已经死了，每个人都会去 OpenAI”，而你只要看看 Google 25 年的存在以及他们所创造的东西，我真的不这么认为。
I really think distribution and the force of brand will keep almost everything Google has today.
我真的认为分销和品牌的力量将保留谷歌今天拥有的几乎一切。
Eli Schwartz: Now, why is Google fighting back so hard to build AI Overviews?
Eli Schwartz：现在，为什么谷歌如此努力地反击建立人工智能概述？
Well, I think there's two answers.
嗯，我认为有两个答案。
One is, like I said, Wall Street.
正如我所说，其中之一是华尔街。
They really want Wall Street to think that they care and they're doing this thing.
他们真的希望华尔街认为他们很关心并且正在做这件事。
The other is losing small percentage points to ChatGPT costs Google a lot of money, so it's worth it for them to invest in it, but I don't think that they have any fear about not being the most dominant search engine in the world.
另一个是，ChatGPT 的小幅损失让谷歌损失了很多钱，所以他们投资它是值得的，但我不认为他们担心自己不会成为世界上最主要的搜索引擎。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, isn't the idea with this trial that this may change, and they may lose that default status, whether it happens or not, that's the whole game here, right?
Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，这次试验的想法不是可能会改变吗？他们可能会失去默认状态，无论是否发生，这就是整个游戏，对吧？
It's like maybe they can't be that anymore, and that maybe opens up.
好像也许他们不能再那样了，这也许会开放。
I think that's the opportunity potentially.
我认为这就是潜在的机会。
Eli Schwartz: I don't think so.
伊莱·施瓦茨：我不这么认为。
Yeah, I'm no legal expert.
是的，我不是法律专家。
I don't know what the DOJ will do, but what's interesting, if you saw Google's press release when the verdict came out, so Google tweeted, "We thank the court for recognizing that we're the greatest search engine in the world, and more to come." They're going to fight back, and it's almost like a bully being declared the world's greatest bully.
我不知道司法部会做什么，但有趣的是，如果你在判决结果出来时看到谷歌的新闻稿，那么谷歌在推特上写道：“我们感谢法院认识到我们是世界上最伟大的搜索引擎，并且未来还会有更多。”他们会反击，这几乎就像一个恶霸被宣布为世界上最伟大的恶霸一样。
They're like, "See, told you we're strong."
他们就像是，“看，告诉过你我们很强大。”
Eli Schwartz: When reading the verdict, it actually said, "There is no competitor.
Eli Schwartz：在宣读判决书时，它实际上说：“没有竞争对手。
Google is the greatest search engine.
谷歌是最伟大的搜索引擎。
They have 25 years of great data.
他们拥有 25 年的丰富数据。
They've done a fantastic job." I don't see any way that those, if they break the default agreements, Apple actually loses all that money Google's paying, and then users will still Google.
他们做得非常出色。”我不认为这些人如果违反默认协议，苹果实际上会损失谷歌支付的所有资金，然后用户仍然会使用谷歌。
That's not what will do it.
那不是要做的事。
I think the only thing they can do is figure out how to prop up a competitor.
我认为他们唯一能做的就是弄清楚如何支持竞争对手。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
I think that's an interesting takeaway.
我认为这是一个有趣的收获。
People will go to Google, will switch to Google even if it's not default.
人们会转向谷歌，即使它不是默认的，也会转向谷歌。
There's actually a really interesting takeaway from Ben Thompson's analysis of this stuff, and I will point to the podcast episode.
实际上，本·汤普森对这些东西的分析有一个非常有趣的收获，我将指出播客节目。
I think that shifted my perspective on this, because when you hear Google is paying Apple to be the default search engine, it sounds nefarious and unfair.
我认为这改变了我对此的看法，因为当你听到谷歌付费让苹果成为默认搜索引擎时，这听起来很邪恶且不公平。
The deal is actually revenue share.
该交易实际上是收入分成。
They give them a percentage of the revenue from the ads, which ends up being $20 billion, something like that, a lot of money for Apple.
他们给他们一定比例的广告收入，最终达到 200 亿美元，对苹果来说是一大笔钱。
Anyone else can come to Apple and say, "We will give you a revenue share of our searches also." It's just nobody is as big and can pay as much.
其他任何人都可以对苹果说：“我们也会给你我们搜索的收入分成。”只是没有人有这么大的规模，也没有人能付那么多钱。
If you think about it, why can't Google come to Apple?
你想一想，谷歌为什么不能来苹果呢？
"Hey, we will send you tons of money by doing the search for you and giving you a large percentage of the ads that we are doing for you."
“嘿，通过为您进行搜索并为您提供我们为您制作的大部分广告，我们将给您带来大量的金钱。”
Lenny Rachitsky: It's weird to not allow that if you really think about it, but it's also unfair, because no one else will ever be able to compete with that.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果你认真思考一下，不允许这样做是很奇怪的，但这也是不公平的，因为没有其他人能够与之竞争。
Eli Schwartz: Yeah, and that's what the court said is like Neva didn't have a chance because of that.
Eli Schwartz：是的，法院就是这么说的，就像涅瓦河因此没有机会一样。
One other point is, so I did this survey, this was years ago when I was at SurveyMonkey, I did a search market penetration survey to figure out who used what, like Bing versus Google.
另一点是，所以我做了这项调查，这是几年前，当我在 SurveyMonkey 时，我做了一项搜索市场渗透率调查，以找出谁使用什么，例如 Bing 与 Google。
On my survey, I was generous.
根据我的调查，我很慷慨。
I threw DuckDuckGo on there, and I came back, I had thousands of responses, and came back that I had 1% of people use DuckDuckGo.
我把 DuckDuckGo 扔在那里，然后我回来了，我收到了数千条回复，然后我发现有 1% 的人使用 DuckDuckGo。
Eli Schwartz: I didn't realize it, that DuckDuckGo didn't actually know what their market penetration was.
Eli Schwartz：我没有意识到，DuckDuckGo 实际上并不知道他们的市场渗透率是多少。
When I shared the survey, Gabriel Weinberg, who's the CEO of DuckDuckGo, hit me on Twitter and he said, "Can you share the data with us?
当我分享这项调查时，DuckDuckGo 的首席执行官加布里埃尔·温伯格 (Gabriel Weinberg) 在 Twitter 上对我说：“你能与我们分享这些数据吗？
We really would like to see it." This was, let's say 10, 12 years ago.
我们真的很想看到它。”比方说，这是 10、12 年前的事了。
In the verdict, it said that DuckDuckGo's market share is 2%.
判决书中称，DuckDuckGo的市场份额为2%。
I came back with 1% 12 years ago.
12年前我带着1%回来了。
DuckDuckGo, I think they raised a hundred million dollars.
DuckDuckGo，我想他们筹集了一亿美元。
Eli Schwartz: They have all these brand partnerships.
Eli Schwartz：他们拥有所有这些品牌合作伙伴关系。
They have, at baseball games, they have their logo, they've done everything, and all they've been able to do is get from 1% to 2%.
在棒球比赛中，他们有自己的标志，他们已经做了一切，他们所能做的就是从 1% 到 2%。
There's a lot there, and Google being Google, I don't see anyone knocking them off.
那里有很多东西，谷歌就是谷歌，我没有看到有人能打败它们。
Lenny Rachitsky: Fascinating.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：令人着迷。
Well, thanks for sharing your takeaway so that we don't have to read this report.
好吧，感谢您分享您的收获，这样我们就不必阅读这份报告了。
Before I move to rapid fire SEO myths, is there anything else along the lines of AI or SEO that you think is really important to share that you want to leave listeners with?
在我开始快速讨论 SEO 神话之前，您认为还有哪些与 AI 或 SEO 相关的内容非常重要，并且您想留给听众分享的内容吗？
Eli Schwartz: I think the most important thing to leave people with is SEO is not dying.
Eli Schwartz：我认为留给人们的最重要的事情是 SEO 不会消亡。
There will always be a world where users are requesting their own information.
总会有一个用户请求自己信息的世界。
One of the reasons I think these home assistants, whether it's from Google, or Apple, or Amazon, have never taken off, is because you don't have choice.
我认为这些家庭助理，无论是来自谷歌、苹果还是亚马逊，从未取得成功的原因之一是因为你别无选择。
You talk to your Google, and it gives you only one answer.
你与谷歌交谈，它只给你一个答案。
You talk to Amazon, and it gives you only one answer.
你与亚马逊交谈，它只给你一个答案。
Like, "I want to buy toilet paper," and Amazon just buys you whatever it decides to buy you.
就像，“我想买卫生纸”，亚马逊就会给你买任何它决定买的东西。
Eli Schwartz: There will always be a world where there needs choice.
Eli Schwartz：世界上永远存在需要选择的地方。
One other piece from the verdict is Google believes that we're in the very early days of LLMs, and even with all the machine learning they do and understanding users, you will always need real user data, which Google has on past searches.
判决的另一部分是谷歌认为我们正处于法学硕士的早期阶段，即使他们进行了所有机器学习并了解用户，你仍然需要真实的用户数据，谷歌在过去的搜索中拥有这些数据。
I think users will always be requesting their own information, and there's never going to be an AI that understands you so perfectly, it's going to know that for you personally, you would like to click result number five.
我认为用户总是会请求他们自己的信息，并且永远不会有一个人工智能能够如此完美地理解你，它会知道对于你个人来说，你想要点击第五个结果。
Eli Schwartz: That's the best fit for what you're looking for right now, which means that there always needs to be multiple choices to make.
Eli Schwartz：这最适合您现在正在寻找的东西，这意味着总是需要做出多种选择。
Yes, most clicks are probably going through the first one, two, or three results, but there needs to be seven, 10, multiple pages of Google, because some people do go to those other pages.
是的，大多数点击可能会经过第一个、第二个或三个结果，但 Google 需要有七个、十个多个页面，因为有些人确实会访问其他页面。
I think that's the most important thing to underscore is that all of this means that search changes, a lot of top-of-funnel search goes away, but in general, there's always going to be a world where people are doing the searches.
我认为最重要的是要强调的是，所有这一切都意味着搜索发生了变化，很多漏斗顶部的搜索消失了，但总的来说，总会有一个人们在进行搜索的世界。
Eli Schwartz: Then the last piece on that really is when you're looking to do something with search, you're looking to take an action.
Eli Schwartz：那么最后一点确实是，当您希望通过搜索做某事时，您希望采取行动。
Companies benefit from those actions.
公司从这些行动中受益。
Say you're a hotel, and you want people to sleep in your hotel and pay you to sleep in your hotel.
假设您是一家酒店，您希望人们在您的酒店睡觉并付钱给您在您的酒店睡觉。
The aggregate number of people needing to take that action and pay you for it does not change even if search volume gets cut.
即使搜索量减少，需要采取该行动并为此付费的总人数也不会改变。
If you're selling shoes, people still need to buy shoes.
如果你卖鞋子，人们仍然需要买鞋子。
Eli Schwartz: If you're selling information, though, your media, if you're WebMD, yes, your revenue declines, because that information that you now aggregated and curated and gave away for free in return for people clicking on ads, Google is now going to give away for free in return for no one clicking on ads.
Eli Schwartz：如果你在销售信息，你的媒体，如果你是WebMD，是的，你的收入会下降，因为你现在汇总、策划并免费赠送的信息，以换取人们点击广告，谷歌现在将免费赠送，以换取没有人点击广告。
Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。
I wonder if there's an investment arbitrage opportunity of predicting which businesses will decline with this and which will thrive.
我想知道是否存在投资套利机会来预测哪些企业将因此而衰落，哪些企业将蓬勃发展。
Anyway, I want to talk about SEO myths.
无论如何，我想谈谈 SEO 神话。
I know that you have a few things, and we've talked about a few of these, I think, of just things that you know people believe about SEO, but they're actually wrong.
我知道你有一些事情，我们已经讨论了其中的一些，我想，只是你知道人们相信搜索引擎优化的事情，但他们实际上是错误的。
Let me just ask you, what are some myths that people get wrong about SEO?
让我问你，人们对 SEO 有哪些误解？
Eli Schwartz: Probably the biggest one we've said over and over is they even need to do SEO.
Eli Schwartz：我们一遍又一遍地说的最重要的一点可能是他们甚至需要进行搜索引擎优化。
There's this always default assumption that you've raised money, you have a marketing team, you should do SEO.
人们总是默认假设你已经筹集了资金，你有一个营销团队，你应该做搜索引擎优化。
I think that one is really worth putting to bed is think about that user journey.
我认为真正值得入睡的是考虑用户旅程。
Should you do SEO?
你应该做SEO吗？
It's a question like, "They ask about other channels, should you do brand..."
这是一个类似这样的问题：“他们询问其他渠道，你是否应该做品牌……”
Eli Schwartz: It's a question like they ask about other channels.
Eli Schwartz：这个问题就像他们问其他渠道一样。
"Should you do brand marketing?
“你应该做品牌营销吗？
Should you take out an ad in Times Square?" And no one will say, "Well, I just raised a million dollars.
你应该在时代广场拍广告吗？”没有人会说：“好吧，我刚刚筹集了一百万美元。
I should totally take out an ad in Times Square." And congratulations on being in Times Square, by the way.
我完全应该在时代广场拍一则广告。”顺便说一句，祝贺您来到时代广场。
Eli Schwartz: No one will just decide, "Oh, I've got money to burn, let me just burn it." So somehow SEO becomes this thing of like, "Oh, I've raised money.
Eli Schwartz：没有人会直接决定：“哦，我有钱要烧，让我把它烧掉吧。”所以不知何故，SEO 变成了这样的事情，“哦，我筹集了资金。
Now, I need an SEO team." So that's I think the first myth that's really important to just put to bed.
现在，我需要一个 SEO 团队。”所以我认为这是第一个非常重要的神话，应该立即上床睡觉。
Eli Schwartz: Link building.
Eli Schwartz：链接建设。
So link building is brand building.
因此，链接建设就是品牌建设。
So it's thinking about how you're going to build a brand and have people mentioned to you.
所以它正在考虑如何建立一个品牌并让人们向你提及。
And when you're doing link building, you're creating a relationship between the piece of content that has linked to you and the product or whatever you're trying to monetize.
当您进行链接构建时，您正在链接到您的内容片段与产品或您想要获利的任何内容之间建立关系。
So that should be link-building.
所以这应该是链接建设。
Just getting the idea of getting links on...
只是想到获取链接...
An HTML link will equal SEO success, again, I think that's completely wrong.
HTML 链接将等于 SEO 成功，我再次认为这是完全错误的。
And then I mean probably the biggest myth in general is thinking that Google itself is a black box.
我的意思是，最大的误解可能就是认为谷歌本身是一个黑匣子。
So I think there's nuances to how you rank, and no one can really unearth what is it that will you be number one and what it is that will make you be number three.
所以我认为你的排名有细微差别，没有人能真正弄清楚是什么让你成为第一，是什么让你成为第三。
But the basic idea of how you build SEO is very simplistic and Google has a best practices guide on what it is that you should be doing, which is build a website that Google can understand, link to the pages in that, write content that is helpful and that users want to read.
但是如何构建 SEO 的基本思想非常简单，谷歌有一个关于你应该做什么的最佳实践指南，即构建一个谷歌可以理解的网站，链接到其中的页面，编写有用且用户想要阅读的内容。
And those are the basics.
这些是基础知识。
And starting with that is how you're going to build an SEO strategy that improves upon it.
从这里开始，你将如何制定一个 SEO 策略来改进它。
But the idea of if, "I take all three of these steps right now.
但如果“我现在采取所有这三个步骤。
I'm guaranteed to be number one," I think is something that is completely incorrect.
我保证是第一，”我认为这是完全错误的。
And there's an assumption that if you do a lot of things around SEO, you're going to be successful.
有人认为，如果你围绕搜索引擎优化做很多事情，你就会成功。
And I think that that's incorrect.
我认为这是不正确的。
Eli Schwartz: Yes, there are nuances.
Eli Schwartz：是的，存在细微差别。
But for the most part, you get from most...
但在大多数情况下，你从大多数...
Zero to 10, you can get to step eight by just doing the best practices.
从 0 到 10，您只需执行最佳实践即可达到第八步。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，哇。
It sounds very empowering.
听起来很有力量。
I like the sound of that.
我喜欢那个声音。
Maybe just on that thread briefly.
也许只是简单地讨论一下该线程。
If someone wanted to start down the road of SEO, I know you're going to be a little bit biased because you help companies with this, but do you recommend bringing someone like you in first or having someone just give it a shot, listening to this podcast, reading some books and blogs, or something else?
如果有人想开始 SEO 之路，我知道你会有点偏见，因为你在这方面帮助公司，但你是否建议首先让像你这样的人加入，或者让某人尝试一下，听这个播客，阅读一些书籍和博客，或者其他什么？
Eli Schwartz: Yes, so I am biased.
Eli Schwartz：是的，所以我有偏见。
I think they should have the right people give them advice on SEO.
我认为他们应该让合适的人为他们提供有关 SEO 的建议。
So if someone wants to be...
所以如果有人想成为...
If they validated that there is an SEO effort, paying for help on SEO, it goes back to that resource discussion we had before.
如果他们验证了存在 SEO 工作，并为 SEO 付费，这又回到了我们之前进行的资源讨论。
So if you want to hire a growth advisor, a growth advisor might be very expensive, but you squash a learning curve so you don't make as many mistakes as fast.
因此，如果你想聘请一名成长顾问，成长顾问可能会非常昂贵，但你可以压缩学习曲线，这样你就不会那么快犯那么多错误。
Eli Schwartz: If you hire someone in-house, and a lot of times they see this with roles where I'm helping companies hire someone for SEO, they don't have a lot of budget, which means they're going to have someone that doesn't have a lot of experience.
Eli Schwartz：如果你在内部雇用某人，很多时候他们会看到我帮助公司雇用 SEO 人员的角色，他们没有很多预算，这意味着他们会雇用没有很多经验的人。
So is that the right decision to make?
那么这是正确的决定吗？
If you're hiring an agency, agencies are typically expensive, and agencies a lot of times get paid on deliverables.
如果您正在雇用代理机构，代理机构通常很昂贵，而且代理机构很多时候会根据交付成果获得报酬。
So are the deliverables they're doing worth paying for?
那么他们所做的成果值得付出代价吗？
Eli Schwartz: An easy deliverable that a lot of agencies produce now is content, but that goes back to our earlier discussion.
Eli Schwartz：许多机构现在制作的一个简单交付成果就是内容，但这可以追溯到我们之前的讨论。
Do you even need the content?
您还需要内容吗？
It's very easy for agencies to sell content as deliverable because it's something they actually deliver.
对于代理机构来说，将内容作为可交付内容进行销售非常容易，因为这是他们实际交付的内容。
Delivering strategy the way most of my growth advising works is very difficult because I don't have a strategy to offer in a proposal because I haven't developed a strategy, and we don't actually see the fruits of that until we implement the strategy.
以我的大多数增长建议的方式提供战略是非常困难的，因为我没有在提案中提供战略，因为我还没有制定战略，而且在实施战略之前我们实际上看不到其成果。
But agencies can end-run that by just saying, "Oh, you pay us on a monthly basis and these are the things we're going to shift to you."
但机构可以通过说“哦，你按月向我们付款，这些就是我们将转移给你的东西”来结束这种情况。
Lenny Rachitsky: Something that I wanted to touch on, which might be a myth and might not be a myth.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈一谈，这可能是一个神话，也可能不是一个神话。
But I think you're going to say it's a myth based on what you said about Google being so dominant.
但我认为你会说这是一个神话，基于你所说的谷歌如此占主导地位。
There's a lot of talk about TikTok and Instagram replacing Search for people.
关于 TikTok 和 Instagram 取代 People Search 的讨论很多。
I actually do search TikTok a lot now for like, "How do I solve this problem?
事实上，我现在经常搜索 TikTok，比如“我该如何解决这个问题？
How do I cut a watermelon?
我该如何切西瓜？
How do I, I don't know, find a cup for my baby?" It's really good.
我不知道如何为我的宝宝找到一个杯子？”真的很好。
What's your take on TikTok and Instagram videos basically replacing a lot of searching for Gen Z, especially, and younger kids?
您对 TikTok 和 Instagram 视频基本上取代 Z 世代（尤其是年幼的孩子）的大量搜索有何看法？
Eli Schwartz: In the Google Verdict, I think Google's said this before.
Eli Schwartz：在 Google 判决中，我认为 Google 之前已经说过这一点。
63% of Gen Z uses TikTok to search.
63% 的 Z 世代使用 TikTok 进行搜索。
Eli Schwartz: Yeah.
伊莱·施瓦茨：是的。
I think that's just a headline number because it comes down to, you said it over and over in the podcast, user journeys.
我认为这只是一个标题数字，因为它归结为，你在播客中一遍又一遍地说过，用户旅程。
So there's going to be things that are more appropriate for TikTok or Instagram, and there are going to be things that are more appropriate for Search.
因此，将会有更适合 TikTok 或 Instagram 的东西，也会有更适合搜索的东西。
So I think if you're doing top-of-funnel discovery, you're going to maybe watch TikTok videos to learn more about the topic.
因此，我认为如果您正在进行漏斗顶部发现，您可能会观看 TikTok 视频以了解有关该主题的更多信息。
But as you go into the mid-funnel, so say you want to...
但当您进入漏斗中部时，请说您想要...
A popular TikTok search is around travel.
TikTok 上的一个热门搜索是关于旅行的。
So you want to go on a trip.
所以你想去旅行。
You want to go to Southeast Asia.
你想去东南亚。
You don't know where exactly you want to go.
你不知道你到底想去哪里。
So you might want to watch a bunch of videos and see influencers and see experiences.
因此，您可能想观看大量视频，了解有影响力的人并了解经验。
But now you're ready to book.
但现在您可以预订了。
And you want to book a hotel.
并且您想预订酒店。
You want to book your flights.
您想预订航班。
All of that is not going to happen on TikTok.
所有这一切都不会发生在 TikTok 上。
All of that's going to happen on Google Search.
所有这一切都将发生在 Google 搜索上。
So that's the mid-funnel again.
这又是漏斗的中间部分。
Eli Schwartz: A lot of search will move different places, but ultimately, Google is still the right place to do those searches, to do those mid-funnel searches.
Eli Schwartz：很多搜索会移动到不同的地方，但最终，谷歌仍然是进行这些搜索、进行漏斗中间搜索的正确地方。
So maybe it was more inappropriate that there ever wasn't TikTok for you to get those better experiences.
因此，如果没有 TikTok 来让你获得更好的体验，也许更不合适。
For those top-of-funnel things, you had to suffer through reading awful content that was written only for SEO purposes, and now you get rich dynamic content that comes from TikTok.
对于那些漏斗顶部的事情，你必须忍受阅读仅为 SEO 目的而编写的糟糕内容，而现在你可以获得来自 TikTok 的丰富动态内容。
Eli Schwartz: And one interesting piece on this is if TikTok does get banned in the US, which looks like it's likely, a company that will pick up all of that users is YouTube.
Eli Schwartz：关于这一点，一个有趣的话题是，如果 TikTok 确实在美国被禁止（看起来很有可能），那么 YouTube 将会是吸引所有用户的公司。
So YouTube has YouTube Shorts.
YouTube 有 YouTube Shorts。
And again, we're looking at a potential monopoly with Google as Google tries to put those YouTube Shorts to solve the problem that TikTok was now solving.
再次，我们正在考虑与谷歌的潜在垄断，因为谷歌试图利用这些 YouTube Shorts 来解决 TikTok 现在正在解决的问题。
So that will be kind of interesting.
所以这会很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计。
Google all the way down.
一路谷歌下来。
Lenny Rachitsky: A thought I had as you were talking about this idea of mid-funnel versus top funnel is a simple way to think about the mid-funnel is where there's intent.
Lenny Rachitsky：当您谈论漏斗中部与顶部漏斗的想法时，我想到的一个想法是一种简单的方式来思考漏斗中部是有意图的地方。
You actually have intent to now buy a thing, a specific thing.
你现在实际上有购买一件东西的意图，一件特定的东西。
Yeah.
是的。
Cool.
凉爽的。
Eli Schwartz: I mean that's what it is, but it's a buyer journey.
Eli Schwartz：我的意思是事实就是如此，但这是一次买家之旅。
So at the top of the funnel, you're curious.
所以在漏斗的顶部，你很好奇。
You don't know if you have intent.
你不知道你是否有意图。
And in the older way of doing SEO where you only focused on top of the funnel, you only focused on rankings as a KPI, which I think is sort of the incorrect way of doing things.
在旧的 SEO 方式中，你只关注漏斗的顶部，你只关注排名作为 KPI，我认为这是一种不正确的做事方式。
There is no intent.
没有意图。
So you showed a KPI that matched with a non-user, which matched with a non-buyer.
因此，您展示了与非用户匹配的 KPI，该 KPI 与非购买者匹配。
Eli Schwartz: As you move down the funnel, there is intent.
Eli Schwartz：当你沿着漏斗向下移动时，就会有意图。
So there is a user and there's less traffic.
所以有了用户，流量就少了。
There's always going to be less traffic at the middle of the funnel.
渠道中间的流量总是会减少。
But that doesn't matter because your KPI is closely related to your business metrics.
但这并不重要，因为您的 KPI 与您的业务指标密切相关。
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's do a couple more myths if there's anything else that we missed, and then we'll wrap up and get to our very exciting lightning round.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果我们还遗漏了任何其他内容，让我们再做几个神话，然后我们将结束并进入我们非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Is there anything else that you think is an important myth that people get wrong about SEO?
您认为人们对于 SEO 的误解还有哪些重要的误区？
Eli Schwartz: I'll touch on one more myth, which is that technical SEO is an easy solve to any SEO problems.
Eli Schwartz：我会再谈一个神话，那就是技术 SEO 可以轻松解决任何 SEO 问题。
So there's been a lot of Google updates recently.
所以最近谷歌有很多更新。
Again, I think...
再次，我认为...
I don't like to defend Google because in reading the Verdict, I think that Google did some pretty evil things.
我不喜欢为谷歌辩护，因为在阅读判决书时，我认为谷歌做了一些非常邪恶的事情。
But a lot of what Google has been doing is pushing back on the things that users hate.
但谷歌一直在做的很多事情都是在抵制用户讨厌的事情。
There's a lot of bad SEO content out there.
那里有很多糟糕的 SEO 内容。
So Google's trying to get rid of a lot of this bad SEO content in their recent updates.
因此，谷歌正试图在最近的更新中删除大量不良的 SEO 内容。
Eli Schwartz: When sites get hit by these updates, they try to solve the problem that they think happened to them by doing technical SEO.
Eli Schwartz：当网站受到这些更新的影响时，他们会尝试通过技术搜索引擎优化来解决他们认为发生在他们身上的问题。
So they'll reach out to me or to someone like me and say, "Can you do an SEO audit and understand why our traffic has suffered?" The reason their traffic has suffered is because they've done things that were not really useful for users and they sort of polluted Google.
因此，他们会联系我或像我这样的人并说：“你能进行 SEO 审核并了解为什么我们的流量受到影响吗？”他们的流量受到影响的原因是他们做了一些对用户来说并没有真正有用的事情，并且污染了谷歌。
They need to solve that problem.
他们需要解决这个问题。
Technical SEO has a place.
技术搜索引擎优化有一席之地。
So if you have a large website with tens of millions of pages, if you're Zillow, how you link to each listing, if you're Airbnb, how you link and allow Google to crawl a site and understand a site, very, very important.
因此，如果你有一个拥有数千万页面的大型网站，如果你是 Zillow，你如何链接到每个列表，如果你是 Airbnb，你如何链接并允许 Google 抓取网站并了解网站，非常非常重要。
Eli Schwartz: If you have a hundred-page website that sells a SaaS tool, technical SEO is probably going to be less important.
Eli Schwartz：如果您有一个销售 SaaS 工具的一百页网站，那么技术 SEO 可能就不那么重要了。
So spending money and time on technical SEO would be a waste of time.
因此，在技术搜索引擎优化上花费金钱和时间是浪费时间。
So I think that's another big myth is you solve SEO problems with the right SEO solution rather than, "Let's do an audit or let's get better links or my page..." Page speed is another one that...
所以我认为这是另一个大神话，你可以使用正确的 SEO 解决方案来解决 SEO 问题，而不是“让我们进行审核，或者让我们获得更好的链接或我的页面......”页面速度是另一个......
Agencies like to sell on...
代理商喜欢在...上销售
If things related to page speed, Google keeps changing the words of what that is, but it doesn't matter as much.
如果事情与页面速度有关，谷歌会不断改变它的含义，但这并不那么重要。
Eli Schwartz: Because at the margins, yes, maybe if you're Kayak and you're competing, you get Expedia, and Kayak is maybe slightly faster, maybe that matters.
Eli Schwartz：因为在边缘，是的，也许如果你是 Kayak 并且你正在竞争，你会得到 Expedia，而 Kayak 可能会稍微快一点，也许这很重要。
But if you're in a space where you're competing against lots of slow terrible websites, it doesn't matter at all.
但是，如果您所在的空间与许多缓慢而糟糕的网站竞争，那么这根本不重要。
So spending a lot of money on making that fix is not the right thing to do.
因此，花费大量资金进行修复并不是正确的做法。
Lenny Rachitsky: I like how you just make SEO feel much more approachable and simple and something that you could just do and not have to again figure out the dark arts that...
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你让 SEO 感觉更平易近人、更简单，你可以直接做一些事情，而不必再次弄清楚那些黑暗艺术......
Eli Schwartz: It is not a dark art.
Eli Schwartz：这不是黑暗艺术。
It should be for most things, it is simple.
对于大多数事情来说应该是这样，很简单。
And then there are tons of companies out there get in a lot of trouble, and there's billions of dollars to be made on doing the right SEO.
然后有大量的公司陷入了很多麻烦，并且通过正确的 SEO 可以赚到数十亿美元。
But a lot can be unlocked by very simplistic SEO.
但通过非常简单的 SEO 就可以解锁很多东西。
PMs that don't really have an SEO background can do enough SEO to make a lot of money for the company without needing to be an SEO expert.
没有真正 SEO 背景的 PM 可以做足够的 SEO 来为公司赚很多钱，而无需成为 SEO 专家。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
That's actually how it worked at Airbnb.
事实上，Airbnb 就是这样运作的。
The PMs work in SEO were not like historically SEO legends.
SEO 领域的 PM 工作并不像历史上的 SEO 传奇。
They were just PMs figuring out SEO and they had a really big impact.
他们只是研究 SEO 的产品经理，但他们产生了很大的影响。
So that really resonates with me.
这确实引起了我的共鸣。
Eli, is there anything else that we haven't touched on that you think is important to you or something that you think might be useful to people to leave them with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
Eli，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有什么我们没有提到的您认为对您很重要的事情，或者您认为可能对人们有用的事情？
Eli Schwartz: Yes.
伊莱·施瓦茨：是的。
So I think we talked about how to decide whether to resource SEO, but we didn't talk about how to understand what the expectations are from SEO.
所以我认为我们讨论了如何决定是否为 SEO 提供资源，但我们没有讨论如何了解 SEO 的期望。
So this is something I came up with while I was working at Faire, which is a very interesting company.
这是我在 Faire 工作时想到的，这是一家非常有趣的公司。
So it's F-A-I-R-E.
所以这是F-A-I-R-E。
They are a wholesale Shopify.
他们是一家批发 Shopify。
They were launching in a new country, and they wanted to understand what the upside of launching in that country was from an SEO standpoint.
他们在一个新的国家/地区推出产品，他们想从 SEO 的角度了解在该国家/地区推出产品的好处是什么。
So the way most people do SEO forecasting is they do a bottoms-up forecast, which is they look at keywords.
因此，大多数人进行 SEO 预测的方式是自下而上的预测，即查看关键词。
So say we want to sell a pair of shoes.
假设我们想卖一双鞋。
Eli Schwartz: You do a bottoms-up forecast, you go onto a keyword research tool, and they're all fairly the same.
Eli Schwartz：你进行自下而上的预测，然后使用关键词研究工具，它们都相当相同。
Look at how many people search for shoes every month.
看看每个月有多少人搜索鞋子。
And then you try to estimate what your ranking would be on that word shoes, and then you estimate what you click through it would be, and then based on that, that's your clicks.
然后你尝试估计你在“鞋子”这个词上的排名，然后你估计你点击它的次数，然后基于此，这就是你的点击次数。
And then you get a conversion rate, and that's your bottoms up.
然后你会得到一个转化率，这就是你的自下而上。
Eli Schwartz: And you make an assumption that the word shoes in that tool didn't capture all the people that search like white shoes and black shoes and running shoes, so you just gross it up.
Eli Schwartz：你假设该工具中的“鞋子”一词并没有涵盖所有像白色鞋子、黑色鞋子和跑鞋这样搜索的人，所以你只是把它搞混了。
You just pick a number and you gross it by 10, and that's your SEO forecast.
您只需选择一个数字，然后将其计算为 10，这就是您的 SEO 预测。
Eli Schwartz: Now, the problem with that is that usually it's too small.
Eli Schwartz：现在的问题是它通常太小。
So you get this number and now you're pitching to launch in a new country.
所以你得到了这个数字，现在你正在准备在一个新的国家/地区推出。
I want to launch in Japan and sell shoes.
我想在日本推出并销售鞋子。
And you say, "Well, I think I can get 500 users because based on the way I got here, this is my click-through rate and this is my rankings and I'm 500 users." And no one will ever fund that.
你说：“嗯，我认为我可以获得 500 个用户，因为根据我到达这里的方式，这是我的点击率，这是我的排名，我有 500 个用户。”没有人会资助这个项目。
That's too small.
那太小了。
Eli Schwartz: Now if you're launching in a new country, it's actually fairly easy to figure out what your SEO upside is because you can take the population in the country.
Eli Schwartz：现在，如果您要在一个新的国家/地区开展业务，实际上很容易弄清楚您的 SEO 优势是什么，因为您可以了解该国家/地区的人口。
So this is not something Pharoah sells, so I don't have to...
所以这不是法老卖的东西，所以我不必……
So I'm not giving away anything.
所以我不会放弃任何东西。
But say you're launching shoes.
但假设你要推出鞋子。
You're launching a new product website that you're selling shoes in a country like Japan.
您正在推出一个新产品网站，在日本等国家/地区销售鞋子。
Eli Schwartz: I'm going to guess.
Eli Schwartz：我猜。
I don't know the actual numbers for Japan.
我不知道日本的实际数字。
So say Japan has a hundred million people and you're selling shoes.
假设日本有一亿人口，而你在卖鞋子。
And you're not going to sell shoes to a hundred million people.
而且你不会把鞋子卖给一亿人。
We're only selling shoes to men.
我们只向男士出售鞋子。
And let's just divide it in half.
让我们把它分成两半。
50% of Japan is men, so we got 50 million people that would buy shoes.
日本 50% 的人口是男性，因此有 5000 万人会购买鞋子。
Eli Schwartz: But now, we're also going to say, "Well, there's older people and younger people and we're not selling shoes to them." So now we can take 25 million and cut that in half.
Eli Schwartz：但现在，我们还要说，“嗯，有老年人和年轻人，我们不会向他们卖鞋子。”所以现在我们可以把 2500 万减半。
And then from there, again, we're selling shoes on the internet.
然后，我们再次在互联网上销售鞋子。
Not everyone buys shoes on the internet.
并非每个人都在互联网上购买鞋子。
Some people buy shoes in a store.
有些人在商店买鞋子。
Some people buy shoes on the internet.
有些人在互联网上购买鞋子。
So you take some percentage rate of the amount of people that are going to buy shoes on the internet and say, "We'll take 10% of our 25 billion people in our market.
因此，你对将在互联网上购买鞋子的人数进行一定的百分比计算，然后说：“我们将在我们的市场 250 亿人口中抽取 10%。
2.5 million people buy shoes on the internet and we want to do SEO for 2.5 million people.
250 万人在互联网上购买鞋子，我们希望为 250 万人进行 SEO。
And our expectation is we want to get this number of market penetration, whether it's 10% or 50% or 100%." And there's your number and multiply that number by the amount of shoes they're going to buy every year and your AOV and there's your forecast.
我们的期望是我们希望获得这个数字的市场渗透率，无论是 10%、50% 还是 100%。”这就是你的数字，并将该数字乘以他们每年要购买的鞋子数量和你的 AOV，这就是你的预测。
Eli Schwartz: And that may be inexact.
Eli Schwartz：这可能不准确。
And you can tweak those numbers up or down.
您可以向上或向下调整这些数字。
You can say, "Well, my AOV was wrong.
你可以说：“好吧，我的 AOV 错了。
My market penetration was wrong.
我的市场渗透率是错误的。
I was wrong on the total population.
我对总人口的估计是错误的。
I didn't realize that in Japan, no one bought shoes on the internet." But at any point in time, you can go back and adjust your forecast.
我没有意识到在日本，没有人在网上买鞋子。”但您可以随时返回并调整您的预测。
Whereas if you're doing this bottoms-up forecast, it's actually in many cases wrong to begin with because the keyword research volume is wrong.
然而，如果你进行这种自下而上的预测，实际上在很多情况下一开始就是错误的，因为关键词研究量是错误的。
Eli Schwartz: I worked with some really fascinating companies where the largest query in their space was the biggest query.
Eli Schwartz：我与一些非常令人着迷的公司合作过，他们的领域中最大的查询就是最大的查询。
So I worked with WordPress.
所以我使用 WordPress。
So WordPress, the word WordPress is the biggest query in the web development space itself.
WordPress 这个词是 Web 开发领域本身最大的疑问。
There's no other word that's as big as WordPress.
没有其他词像 WordPress 一样重要。
And the number that every single keyword research tool had was completely wrong of what Google Search Console said for the word WordPress is, "When you're building these forecasts based on keyword research tools, that first number that you build the entire forecast off of if it's wrong, your forecast is wrong." So when you do this top-down, it's a TAM forecast essentially.
每个关键词研究工具的数字与 Google Search Console 对 WordPress 这个词所说的完全错误，“当你基于关键词研究工具构建这些预测时，你构建整个预测的第一个数字如果是错误的，那么你的预测就是错误的。”因此，当您自上而下地执行此操作时，本质上是 TAM 预测。
When you do a top-down, you're closer to the truth.
当你自上而下进行观察时，你就更接近事实。
Now, you probably aren't going to get to the truth.
现在，您可能不会了解真相。
I've never seen a product plan get to the truth of what it could do, but it will help you make a better decision than if you just guess.
我从未见过产品计划能真正说明其功能，但它会帮助您做出比猜测更好的决定。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, this is a massive insight you're sharing.
Lenny Rachitsky：哇，您分享的这是一个巨大的见解。
So you're saying the keyword research tools are not actually that accurate in terms of the opportunity there.
所以你是说关键词研究工具实际上在机会方面并不那么准确。
And why is that?
这是为什么呢？
That begs the question.
这就引出了一个问题。
Why are they so off?
他们为什么这么闲？
What are they doing wrong?
他们做错了什么？
What are they missing?
他们缺少什么？
Eli Schwartz: They have their own secret sauce for estimations.
Eli Schwartz：他们有自己的估算秘诀。
So even Google, again, for past monopolistic reasons, Google's not allowed to give the real number that they see on Google Ads for how many people search it.
因此，即使是谷歌，由于过去的垄断原因，谷歌也不允许提供他们在谷歌广告上看到的关于有多少人搜索它的真实数字。
They have to buy it from another data source, and then give that out.
他们必须从另一个数据源购买它，然后将其分发出去。
I forget why.
我忘了为什么。
They're all basically guessing.
他们基本上都是猜测。
So they're using whatever sort of proprietary algorithms to guess, which is why a lot of them are not aligned because they have their own algorithms.
因此，他们使用任何类型的专有算法来猜测，这就是为什么他们中的许多人没有对齐，因为他们有自己的算法。
So you're using, whether it's Semrush or Ahrefs, one of my favorite tools is Similarweb, which Similarweb has a lot of browser plugins, which snoop on the way people are searching.
所以你使用的，无论是 Semrush 还是 Ahrefs，我最喜欢的工具之一是 Comparisonweb，Similarweb 有很多浏览器插件，它们可以窥探人们搜索的方式。
So whatever it is that they're...
所以无论是什么，他们...
Because Similarweb has browser plugin, but they're not seeing every single person's search, so they have to use algorithms to estimate how much the entire world would be.
因为Similarweb有浏览器插件，但他们看不到每个人的搜索，所以他们必须使用算法来估计整个世界有多少。
Eli Schwartz: And again, I don't know that any of them could get close to truth was when I...
Eli Schwartz：再说一次，我不知道他们中的任何一个人能够接近事实，当我......
I worked with big companies where there were keywords that I could look at Google Search Console, some of them, the tools were overestimating by 10 times.
我与大公司合作，那里有一些关键词，我可以在 Google Search Console 上查看，其中一些关键词，工具被高估了 10 倍。
Sometimes they're underestimating by 10 times.
有时他们会低估10倍。
So I'm not saying they didn't get the exact monthly number wrong.
所以我并不是说他们没有弄错确切的每月数字。
I'm saying they got it wrong by many factors.
我是说他们由于很多因素而犯了错误。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that's crazy.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，太疯狂了。
So your advice is...
所以你的建议是...
Do you just ignore those numbers?
你会忽略这些数字吗？
Or is it just, "Check it out but don't roll it.
或者只是“检查一下，但不要滚动它。
Don't use that number"?
不要使用那个号码”？
Eli Schwartz: They're indicative.
Eli Schwartz：它们具有指示性。
So I would say if you want to know like, "Do most people spell WordPress with a space or WordPress without a space?" It's pretty indicative that people spell it without a space.
所以我想说，如果你想知道，“大多数人拼写 WordPress 时会带空格还是 WordPress 不带空格？”这很能说明人们拼写时不带空格。
But if I were building a forecast and say, "Oh, I absolutely choose this based on this defined number." I don't think so.
但如果我在进行预测时说：“哦，我绝对是根据这个定义的数字来选择这个的。”我不这么认为。
I can use it for normalization.
我可以用它来标准化。
And I use them only for normalization to understand how do people search.
我仅将它们用于标准化，以了解人们如何搜索。
And I really like user journeys and they're helpful for understanding user journeys.
我真的很喜欢用户旅程，它们有助于理解用户旅程。
But as an exact science, it's hard to really use that.
但作为一门精确的科学，很难真正运用它。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's wild.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太疯狂了。
And so it's mostly useful for order magnitude and comparing one keyword to another relative in this bit.
因此，它对于数量级以及将一个关键字与该位中的另一个相关关键字进行比较最有用。
Okay, interesting.
好吧，有趣。
Eli Schwartz: Yes.
伊莱·施瓦茨：是的。
I mean I have a great example of how wrong it could be in estimating traffic.
我的意思是，我有一个很好的例子来说明估算流量时可能会出现多么错误的情况。
So there was a company I was working with early in COVID.
在新冠疫情早期，我曾与一家公司合作。
The public company, their board member emailed them and said, "You guys are getting crushed by your competitors in COVID because look at your competitors.
这家上市公司的董事会成员给他们发电子邮件说：“你们在新冠疫情中被你们的竞争对手压垮了，因为看看你们的竞争对手。
I'm looking at one of these tools and you're at the bottom and you're doing everything wrong." And the CMO says, "What do I tell this board member?" I said, "The board member is completely wrong.
我正在研究其中一个工具，而你却处于最底层，而且你做的一切都是错误的。”首席营销官说：“我该告诉这位董事会成员什么？”我说：“董事会成员完全错误。
This is the Google Search Console." And Google Search Console is not perfect, but again, it's real data and our Google Search Console shows that our traffic has quadrupled in COVID, so it doesn't really matter what this external tool shows.
这是 Google 搜索控制台。”谷歌搜索控制台并不完美，但同样，它是真实的数据，我们的谷歌搜索控制台显示我们的流量在新冠疫情中增加了四倍，所以这个外部工具显示的内容并不重要。
So they're helpful.
所以他们很有帮助。
Tools are helpful.
工具很有帮助。
But I don't think they are a source of actual truth.
但我不认为它们是真实真相的来源。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。
That's an awesome point in closing.
这是一个很棒的结束点。
One thing I had noted here that I want to make sure you have a chance to talk about is just you're really passionate about helping people get into SEO and also just becoming advisors the way you are.
我在这里指出的一件事是，我想确保您有机会谈论，您真的热衷于帮助人们进入 SEO，并且像您一样成为顾问。
Share what you think might be useful to people along these lines.
分享您认为可能对这些人有用的内容。
Eli Schwartz: As my own forecast and prediction, I think the need for SEO expertise is going to explode because a lot of what is happening in the search layouts is going to mean that companies have to pivot their approaches.
Eli Schwartz：正如我自己的预测和预测，我认为对 SEO 专业知识的需求将会激增，因为搜索布局中发生的很多事情意味着公司必须改变他们的方法。
So again, companies focus on rankings, they focus on traffic, and a lot of that goes away.
再说一遍，公司专注于排名，他们专注于流量，而其中很多都消失了。
Suddenly the layout changes, the traffic changes.
布局突然发生变化，交通也发生变化。
It's not necessarily going to impact their bottom lines if their SEO wasn't a right fit.
如果他们的搜索引擎优化不合适，并不一定会影响他们的利润。
So this is going to create a lot of interest in SEO help, and I'm seeing this.
因此，这将引起人们对 SEO 帮助的极大兴趣，我也看到了这一点。
Eli Schwartz: Over the last year, my own inbound has really grown because there's a lot of questions as things shake out.
Eli Schwartz：在过去的一年里，我自己的入境确实有所增加，因为随着事情的发展，出现了很多问题。
So there will be people that want to go into SEO consulting, and I think there's going to be a huge need for it in growth advising in general.
因此，会有人想要进入 SEO 咨询领域，我认为总体而言，增长咨询方面对它的需求很大。
Eli Schwartz: What I would say is, and I had amazing mentors along the way, some of your past guests like Casey Winters and Yuriy Timen, Ethan Smith, they're all guests with great episodes, but they advised me and they shared with me not on how to be a better operator, but on how to do sales better, how to propose better.
Eli Schwartz：我想说的是，一路上我有很棒的导师，你们过去的一些嘉宾，比如凯西·温特斯(Casey Winters)、尤里·泰门(Yuriy Timen)、伊森·史密斯(Ethan Smith)，他们都是有精彩剧集的嘉宾，但他们给了我建议，他们与我分享的不是如何成为更好的经营者，而是如何更好地进行销售，如何更好地提出建议。
Eli Schwartz: And for anyone out there that wants to become a growth advisor, I'd say that that's the skill you really want to perfect.
Eli Schwartz：对于任何想成为成长顾问的人来说，我想说这才是你真正想要完善的技能。
Communication, sales, proposals, and not really worry about being the best operator.
沟通、销售、建议，而不是真正担心成为最好的运营商。
You should be the best operator, but that's probably the skills you already have.
您应该是最好的操作员，但这可能是您已经拥有的技能。
And don't make an assumption that because you're a good operator today, you'll also be a great growth advisor.
并且不要假设因为您今天是一名优秀的运营商，所以您也将成为一名优秀的增长顾问。
Build that growth advising muscle by staying on your day job.
通过坚持日常工作来增强成长建议的力量。
Don't quit your day job, and moonlighting and practice selling, closing, working, retaining, and that's where if you're successful there, you can be successful on your own.
不要放弃你的日常工作，兼职并练习销售、结账、工作、保留，如果你在那里取得成功，你自己也能取得成功。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And I know you have some posts that get into this stuff that we'll link to you, right?
我知道您有一些涉及此内容的帖子，我们将链接到您，对吧？
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
It's kind of think of yourself as a product and the journey of working with you.
这有点将你自己视为一个产品以及与你合作的旅程。
Eli Schwartz: Yes.
伊莱·施瓦茨：是的。
You're building a brand.
你正在建立一个品牌。
You're not building a consultancy.
你不是在建立一家咨询公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
Eli, this has been amazing.
伊莱，这真是太棒了。
And with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Here we go.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。
First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Eli Schwartz: As has been apparent, I really like user journeys and understanding people.
Eli Schwartz：很明显，我真的很喜欢用户旅程和理解人。
So there's a book called Small Data by I think Martin Lindstrom.
我记得有一本叫《小数据》的书，作者是 Martin Lindstrom。
I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name right, where he talks about understanding people and understanding how people buy.
我不知道我是否念对了他的名字，他在其中谈到了了解人们并了解人们如何购买。
And he digs into that entire process.
他深入研究了整个过程。
He actually goes and lives in people's houses and watch how they use different tools and toys.
他实际上去人们的房子里生活，观察他们如何使用不同的工具和玩具。
I always find that book to be fascinating, and recommend to people who want to understand users.
我一直觉得这本书很有趣，推荐给那些想要了解用户的人。
Eli Schwartz: Simon Sinek's Start With Why.
伊莱·施瓦茨（Eli Schwartz）：西蒙·斯涅克（Simon Sinek）的《从为什么开始》。
Again, the same idea.
再次，同样的想法。
Really understand what a product a business is supposed to be doing to understand users.
真正了解企业应该做什么产品才能了解用户。
This is specifically for growth advisors and not necessarily for PMs, but Million Dollar Consulting.
这是专门针对增长顾问的，不一定是针对产品经理的，而是针对百万美元咨询公司的。
It's a book I read, recommended actually by Ethan Smith many years ago.
这是我读过的一本书，实际上是伊森·史密斯多年前推荐的。
A fascinating book on how to build a brand and become a growth advisor.
这是一本关于如何建立品牌并成为成长顾问的引人入胜的书。
I ended up working with the author as a coach for almost a year.
我最终作为教练与作者一起工作了近一年。
Amazing book.
很棒的书。
Eli Schwartz: And then the last book that'd be remise in not recommending is my wife's book, which is How To Stop Caring What Others Think: For Real.
Eli Schwartz：最后一本不推荐的书是我妻子的书，《如何停止关心别人的想法：真正的》。
So it is a book for precisely that.
所以这本书正是为此而写的。
Understanding your own successes, not worry about what other people think about you.
了解自己的成功，不要担心别人对你的看法。
Lenny Rachitsky: Beautiful.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：美丽。
Is that in the background, by the way?
顺便问一下，这是在后台吗？
And if not, you got to put it in your background, your wife's book.
如果没有，你必须把它放在你的背景，你妻子的书里。
Eli Schwartz: My wife made the background.
Eli Schwartz：我的妻子制作了背景。
So yes, it is in the background.
所以是的，它在后台。
Lenny Rachitsky: Which one is it?
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是哪一个？
Which color am I...
我是什么颜色...
Just so people recognize it.
只是为了让人们认识它。
Oh, the big one right there.
哦，那个大的就在那里。
I was wondering why that one was a little taller than the rest.
我想知道为什么那个人比其他人高一点点。
Lenny Rachitsky: There it is.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：就是这样。
Wait, move it up a little bit so we can see the full cover.
等等，将其向上移动一点，以便我们可以看到完整的封面。
Oh, beautiful.
哦，美丽。
Stop Caring What Others Think.
停止关心别人的想法。
Beautiful.
美丽的。
I need that.
我需要那个。
For Real, I like the ends, but for real.
对于《真实》来说，我喜欢结局，但是是真实的。
Eli Schwartz: It may or may not be a Google Search query.
Eli Schwartz：它可能是也可能不是 Google 搜索查询。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计。
I see.
我懂了。
I see what happened there.
我明白那里发生了什么。
Genius.
天才。
Okay, next question.
好的，下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?
您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Eli Schwartz: I was on a plane and I saw this movie Blackberry and it looked like a documentary, so I don't know if you've seen it, but it was fascinating.
Eli Schwartz：我在飞机上看了这部电影《黑莓》，它看起来像一部纪录片，所以我不知道你是否看过它，但它很吸引人。
Because it's one of those movies, it has a cliffhanger, and you know exactly how it ends.
因为它是其中一部电影，所以它有一个悬念，而且你确切地知道它的结局。
And it is such a fascinating movie.
这是一部如此迷人的电影。
I didn't know all that history, but they owned the entire smartphone industry, and they went to zero.
我不知道所有的历史，但他们拥有整个智能手机行业，而且他们归零了。
And it really charted that journey and it makes you think like, "You can never really rest on your laurels.
它确实描绘了这段旅程，它让你这样想：“你永远不能真正安于现状。
You have to create a product people want and understand your users and keep selling that product." And not be like, "Well, we're number one, this will never go away." And great movie.
你必须创造出人们想要的产品并了解你的用户并继续销售该产品。”而不是说，“好吧，我们是第一，这永远不会消失。”和伟大的电影。
Lenny Rachitsky: Funny, it was just recommended by another guest very recently, so there's trending up.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，最近另一位客人刚刚推荐了它，所以趋势有所上升。
It's been around for maybe a year at this point.
到目前为止，它已经存在了大概一年了。
I watched it.
我看了。
Eli Schwartz: Yeah, I never would've watched it if it wasn't on a plane.
Eli Schwartz：是的，如果不是在飞机上，我永远不会看它。
It was totally...
这完全是...
It seemed like a plane movie, but it was perfect.
这看起来就像一部飞机电影，但很完美。
Lenny Rachitsky: I watched that at home.
Lenny Rachitsky：我在家里看的。
And I love just the technical...
我只喜欢技术...
Their ability to find clever ways to use the cell networks, that felt impossible, and that's what allowed them to all these.
他们有能力找到巧妙的方法来使用蜂窝网络，这感觉是不可能的，但这就是他们能够实现这一切的原因。
I like the messaging and things like that.
我喜欢消息传递之类的东西。
That was really fascinating because I didn't realize they basically reverse-engineered the way the cell networks worked to allow what they allowed.
这真的很有趣，因为我没有意识到他们基本上对蜂窝网络的工作方式进行了逆向工程以允许他们允许的事情。
Yeah, awesome movie, and crazy story.
是的，很棒的电影和疯狂的故事。
Lenny Rachitsky: Next question, do you have a favorite recent product that you've recently discovered that you really love?
Lenny Rachitsky：下一个问题，您最近发现自己真正喜欢的最近产品有吗？
It could be an app.
它可能是一个应用程序。
It could be some physical.
这可能是一些身体上的。
Eli Schwartz: It's not a recent product and it's the kind of thing I fall in love with over and over again.
Eli Schwartz：这不是最近的产品，但它是我一次又一次爱上的东西。
And it might be cliche, but it's my phone.
这可能是陈词滥调，但这是我的手机。
So I recently traveled in Southeast Asia.
所以我最近去东南亚旅游了。
I lived there for a little bit.
我在那里住过一段时间。
So I haven't been back in eight years.
所以我已经八年没有回来了。
And the things I was able to do with my phone like traveling, Google Maps, Waze, and ordering food.
我可以用手机做一些事情，比如旅行、谷歌地图、位智和订餐。
I went from multiple countries and I was able to use the same app to book rides and make payments.
我来自多个国家，并且能够使用同一个应用程序预订乘车和付款。
It was so useful.
这太有用了。
Eli Schwartz: Eight years ago, and I was there and I had to buy a SIM card and my phone didn't really work and I couldn't make payments.
Eli Schwartz：八年前，我在那里不得不购买一张 SIM 卡，但我的手机无法正常使用，而且我无法付款。
It changed my entire experience.
它改变了我的整个经历。
I almost didn't need a computer.
我几乎不需要电脑。
So falling in love with my phone again.
于是我又爱上了我的手机。
Eli Schwartz: And then another one that...
Eli Schwartz：然后是另一件事......
It's not necessarily recent, but I absolutely love, which is Grammarly.
它不一定是最近的，但我绝对喜欢，这是 Grammarly。
So I like writing.
所以我喜欢写作。
I write all my own stuff.
我写的都是我自己的东西。
I don't write with AI.
我不使用人工智能写作。
Grammarly helps me to be a better writer.
语法帮助我成为一名更好的作家。
Lenny Rachitsky: You know what I've realized about Grammarly recently?
Lenny Rachitsky：你知道我最近对 Grammarly 的了解是什么吗？
I just upgraded to their pro plan.
我刚刚升级到他们的专业计划。
They're like the best product at upselling you on their paid plan because they're just right there in your face all the time.
它们就像是在付费计划中向您追加销售的最佳产品，因为它们一直就在您面前。
"Hey, we have stuff.
“嘿，我们有东西。
We have so many tips for you.
我们为您提供了很多建议。
We have so much we can improve.
我们有很多可以改进的地方。
Just pay a hundred whatever bucks and we have so much advice to make all your writing so much better." It's right there in your face all the time.
只要花一百美元，我们就会有很多建议可以让你的写作变得更好。”它一直就在你的脸上。
They're so good at it.
他们太擅长了。
And they got me.
他们抓住了我。
They got me.
他们抓住了我。
And I'm happy.
我很高兴。
It's not like that much money in the scheme of things if you're doing this full-time.
如果你全职做这件事的话，在计划中并没有那么多钱。
Eli Schwartz: I'm so embarrassed when I use Grammarly on my book and it just shows up all blue and green.
Eli Schwartz：当我在我的书上使用 Grammarly 时，我感到非常尴尬，它只是显示为蓝色和绿色。
I'm like, "Oh, man, if only I had known."
我想，“哦，伙计，如果我早知道就好了。”
Lenny Rachitsky: I actually have a copywriter on my newsletter who's incredible.
Lenny Rachitsky：实际上，我的时事通讯上有一位非常出色的文案撰稿人。
She finds a hundred things every time to improve that even when I think it's perfect.
她每次都会找到一百个需要改进的地方，即使我认为它是完美的。
And interestingly, she doesn't do what Grammarly suggests in more cases than I would expect.
有趣的是，她没有按照语法建议去做的情况比我预期的要多。
So that's kind of interesting I'm finding.
我发现这很有趣。
But anyway, yeah, Grammarly is great.
但无论如何，是的，Grammarly 很棒。
I use it all the time.
我一直用它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Two more questions.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：还有两个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often use yourself, share with friends or family, find useful in work or in life?
您是否有自己最喜欢的人生格言，您经常使用它，与朋友或家人分享，并认为它在工作或生活中有用？
Eli Schwartz: I don't know that it fits into a sentence, but it's something I always encourage people, which is to really think big and think long.
Eli Schwartz：我不知道这句话是否适合，但我总是鼓励人们，那就是真正要往大处想，往长远处想。
So I just started working with LinkedIn as a consulting client, and I've talked to LinkedIn about working with them for six years.
因此，我刚刚开始作为咨询客户与 LinkedIn 合作，并且我已经与 LinkedIn 讨论了与他们合作的事宜六年了。
So, never give up.
所以，永远不要放弃。
You meet someone and propose something and suggest an idea you never know where it'll go.
你遇到某人并提出一些建议并提出一个你永远不知道它会走向何方的想法。
I had that all through my career with living in different places, really not think about the moment of where things will go, but just it's a relationship you're building.
在我的职业生涯中，我一直生活在不同的地方，真的不考虑事情会发生什么，而只是你正在建立的一种关系。
You don't ever know where anything will happen.
你永远不知道哪里会发生任何事情。
So look at the big picture.
所以从大局来看。
Lenny Rachitsky: Love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：喜欢这个。
And kind of following along those lines, last question.
最后一个问题就是沿着这些思路进行的。
Curious if something comes up here.
很好奇这里是否有什么事情发生。
What SEO win are you most proud of?
您最自豪的 SEO 胜利是什么？
Eli Schwartz: I don't know if I could say most proud of.
Eli Schwartz：我不知道我是否可以说最自豪。
But I really like what I do with Tinder because it brought the entire journey together.
但我真的很喜欢使用 Tinder 所做的事情，因为它将整个旅程整合在一起。
There's users out there that didn't know that Tinder would solve a very specific problem, and it's just there to solve that problem.
有些用户不知道 Tinder 可以解决一个非常具体的问题，而它就是为了解决这个问题而存在的。
And it's not the way Tinder thought of themselves.
Tinder 并不是这样看待自己的。
They thought of themselves as a dating app, but it's a loneliness solution problem that answers a Google Search.
他们认为自己是一个约会应用程序，但这是一个解决孤独问题的解决方案，可以回答谷歌搜索。
Lenny Rachitsky: This has been awesome.
Lenny Rachitsky：这太棒了。
I think this is going to help a lot of people think through SEO and especially as they realize how things are changing, they're going to have this resource now to be like, "I see.
我认为这将帮助很多人思考 SEO，特别是当他们意识到事情正在发生变化时，他们现在将拥有这个资源，就像，“我明白了。
This is what I should change.
这就是我应该改变的。
This is what I should be doing." And I just love, especially the pattern and the thread of, "It's not actually that complicated.
这就是我应该做的。”我就是喜欢，尤其是其中的模式和线索，“实际上并没有那么复杂。
You can do it even if you've never really done it before." So I really appreciate you being here and sharing all this wisdom with us.
即使你以前从未真正做过，你也可以做到。”因此，我非常感谢您来到这里并与我们分享所有这些智慧。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you if they want to reach out to work with you?
如果人们想与您合作，可以在哪里找到您？
Also, check out your book.
另外，看看你的书。
And finally, how can listeners be useful to you?
最后，听众如何对你有用？
Eli Schwartz: You can find me on LinkedIn.
Eli Schwartz：您可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。
So search Eli Schwartz, and you should definitely look for my book.
所以搜索 Eli Schwartz，你一定应该寻找我的书。
So the book is Product-Led SEO.
所以这本书是以产品为主导的 SEO。
Actually, one piece on just your own personal brand and your own personal rankings.
实际上，一篇关于您自己的个人品牌和您自己的个人排名的文章。
It doesn't matter where you rank if you search your own name.
如果您搜索自己的名字，排名第几并不重要。
So if LinkedIn shows up first for your name, that's great because they're finding you.
因此，如果 LinkedIn 首先显示您的名字，那就太好了，因为他们正在找到您。
And a lot of times, brands and people will be very focused on where they're positioned, but it's about the journey.
很多时候，品牌和人们会非常关注他们的定位，但更重要的是旅程。
If they find you, they find you.
如果他们找到你，他们就会找到你。
It doesn't matter if it's number one.
是否排名第一并不重要。
Eli Schwartz: And that also underscores that it's not all about links.
Eli Schwartz：这也强调了这不仅仅与链接有关。
I believe for my own name and probably for you too, I outranked LinkedIn.
我相信，就我自己的名字而言，或许也对你而言，我的排名超过了 LinkedIn。
And my book, so if you search Product-Led SEO, my own personal website, which does not have the best domain authority, it outranks Amazon.
还有我的书，所以如果你搜索 Product-Led SEO，我自己的个人网站，它没有最好的域名权威，它的排名超过了亚马逊。
So that should right away disprove that it's all about links.
因此，这应该立即证明这一切都与链接有关。
That's all about SEO metrics.
这就是 SEO 指标的全部内容。
It's really all about the right fit.
这确实取决于正确的配合。
So be the right fit, and you'll show up where you're supposed to.
因此，只要合适，你就会出现在你应该出现的地方。
Eli Schwartz: And then users can be most helpful for me by subscribing to my newsletter and giving me ideas and feedback on what to write.
Eli Schwartz：然后，用户可以通过订阅我的时事通讯并为我提供关于要写什么的想法和反馈来对我提供最大的帮助。
I really enjoy writing, and I really enjoy hearing from people.
我真的很喜欢写作，也很喜欢听取人们的意见。
So my newsletter is Productledseo.com.
所以我的时事通讯是 Productledseo.com。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's so consistent across all your things.
Lenny Rachitsky：你所有的事情都是如此一致。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Productledseo.
产品化的SEO。
Eli, thank you so much for being here.
伊莱，非常感谢你来到这里。
Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.
再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。