The new AI growth playbook for 2026 | How Lovable hit $200M ARR in one year

Lenny Rachitsky: You're ahead of growth at Lovable on track to be the fastest or one of the fastest growing companies in history.

Lenny Rachitsky：您在 Lovable 的增长中处于领先地位，有望成为历史上增长最快的公司或增长最快的公司之一。

Elena Verna: We're over 200 million in ARR.

Elena Verna：我们的 ARR 已超过 2 亿。

At this point, we're 100 people large, the pace here is insane.

现在我们已经有 100 个人了，这里的节奏太疯狂了。

Lenny Rachitsky: You said that you've had to throw out most of your growth playbook.

Lenny Rachitsky：你说过你不得不扔掉大部分的成长策略。

Elena Verna: I feel like only 30 to 40% of what I've learned in the last 15 to 20 years of being in growth transfers here because we just need to invest in such bigger bets, and innovate, and create new growth loops here, everybody and their mother is starting a vibe coding business nowadays, and we need to figure out how to be ahead of them.

Elena Verna：我觉得我在过去 15 到 20 年里学到的知识中只有 30% 到 40% 转移到了这里，因为我们只需要在这里进行更大的投资、创新和创造新的增长循环，现在每个人和他们的母亲都在开展氛围编码业务，我们需要弄清楚如何领先于他们。

And to be ahead of them is not optimization of the problem, it's reinvention of the solution.

领先他们并不是优化问题，而是重新发明解决方案。

I just feel like I usually spend maybe 5% innovating on growth in my previous roles, right now, I'm spending 95% innovating on growth, and only 5% on optimization.

我只是觉得，在以前的职位上，我通常会花 5% 左右的时间用于增长创新，而现在，我将 95% 的时间用于增长创新，只有 5% 用于优化。

Lenny Rachitsky: What do you find is actually moving the needle?

Lenny Rachitsky：您发现什么真正起到了推动作用？

Elena Verna: One of our biggest strategy is building in public, and it's coupled with employee socials, founder-led socials.

Elena Verna：我们最大的战略之一是在公共场所进行建设，并与员工社交活动、创始人主导的社交活动相结合。

And another one is giving your product away a lot, this is part of our growth secret sauce.

另一种是大量赠送您的产品，这是我们增长秘诀的一部分。

You have to remove the barrier of entry.

你必须消除进入障碍。

If somebody, one of our users stands up and say, hey, I'm going to have a hackathon at my work on Lovable, can you give us some free credits to play with?

如果有人，我们的一位用户站起来说，嘿，我要在 Lovable 上的工作中举办一场黑客马拉松，你能给我们一些免费积分来玩吗？

Why would we prevent a person who wants to do all of the marketing and activating for us from using us?

为什么我们要阻止想要为我们进行所有营销和激活的人使用我们？

We're like, take it, how much do you need?

我们说，拿走吧，你需要多少钱？

Lenny Rachitsky: The trick is get more people to try it, just ship things you can talk about.

Lenny Rachitsky：诀窍是让更多人尝试，只发布你可以谈论的东西。

Elena Verna: The only way to create a word of mouth loop is just to blow their socks off.

Elena Verna：创造口碑循环的唯一方法就是让他们大吃一惊。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Elena Verna, head of growth at Lovable.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Lovable 的增长主管 Elena Verna。

In under one year after launching, with fewer than 100 people, Lovable hit 200 million ARR, which is one of, if not the fastest ramp to 200 million ARR in history, and growth is still accelerating.

在推出后不到一年的时间里，Lovable 的员工人数还不到 100 人，其 ARR 就达到了 2 亿，这即使不是历史上达到 2 亿 ARR 的最快增长之一，也是其中之一，而且增长仍在加速。

They've also recently raised a series B at a $6 billion valuation.

他们最近还以 60 亿美元的估值筹集了 B 轮融资。

So, with that, there's a lot to learn about what Lovable has figured out about growth.

因此，关于 Lovable 对增长的理解，还有很多值得学习的地方。

This is Elena's fourth visit to the podcast, a record, she is my favorite growth mind, and in our conversation, we talk about how the growth playbook has fundamentally changed for AI companies.

这是埃琳娜第四次访问播客，创下记录，她是我最喜欢的成长思想，在我们的谈话中，我们讨论了人工智能公司的成长策略如何发生了根本性的改变。

What works now, what no longer works, and what has surprised her most about how Lovable grows.

什么现在有效，什么不再有效，以及 Lovable 的成长过程中最让她惊讶的是什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: She also shares her advice about whether working at an AI company is right for you, some incredibly interesting insights into Lovable's secret sauce for growth, the unique ways they operate internally, their approach to building minimal, Lovable products, also how they hire, and also how product market fit as a concept is no longer what it used to be, and how every company basically has to recapture product market fit every three months.

Lenny Rachitsky：她还分享了关于在人工智能公司工作是否适合你的建议，对Lovable增长秘诀的一些非常有趣的见解，他们内部运作的独特方式，他们构建最小化的Lovable产品的方法，以及他们如何招聘，以及产品市场契合度作为一个概念如何不再像以前那样，以及每家公司基本上必须每三个月重新获得产品市场契合度。

This episode is incredibly tactical, and you will leave this conversation smarter on so many levels.

这一集非常具有策略性，你会让这次对话在很多层面上变得更加明智。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Lenny Rachitsky: And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of 19 incredible premium products, including a year free of Lovable, Replit, Bolt, n8n, Linear, Devin, PostHog, Superhuman, Descript, Wispr Flow, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, raycast, ChatPRD, Mobbin, and Stripe Atlas.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的 19 种令人难以置信的优质产品，包括一年免费的 Lovable、Replit、Bolt、n8n、Linear、Devin、PostHog、Super human、Descript、Wispr Flow、Perplexity、Warp、Granola、Magic Patterns、raycast、ChatPRD、Mobbin 和 Stripe Atlas。

Head on over to Lennysnewsletter.com and click Product Pass.

前往 Lennysnewsletter.com 并单击 Product Pass。

With that, I bring you Elena Vernon, after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了埃琳娜·弗农 (Elena Vernon)。

Here's a puzzle for you, what do OpenAI, Cursor, Perplexity, Vercel, Plaid, and hundreds of other winning companies have in common?

这是一个给你的谜题，OpenAI、Cursor、Perplexity、Vercel、Plaid 和其他数百家获奖公司有什么共同点？

The answer is they're all powered by today's sponsor, WorkOS.

答案是它们全部由当今的赞助商 WorkOS 提供支持。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you're building software for enterprises, you've probably felt the pain of integrating single sign- on, Skim, RBAC, audit logs, and other features required by big customers.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您正在为企业构建软件，您可能已经感受到集成单点登录、Skim、RBAC、审核日志和大客户所需的其他功能的痛苦。

WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs, with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS.

WorkOS 通过专门为 B2B SaaS 构建的现代开发人员平台，将这些交易阻碍因素转变为嵌入式 API。

Whether you're a seed stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer, or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise-ready and unlocking growth.

无论您是试图吸引第一个企业客户的种子期初创公司，还是正在全球扩张的独角兽，WorkOS 都是实现企业就绪并释放增长的最快途径。

They're essentially Stripe for enterprise features.

它们本质上是用于企业功能的 Stripe。

Visit Workos.com to get started, or just hit up their Slack support where they have real engineers in there who answer your questions super fast.

请访问 Workos.com 开始使用，或者直接联系他们的 Slack 支持，那里有真正的工程师，可以超快地回答您的问题。

WorkOS allows you to build like the best, with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience.

WorkOS 允许您以最佳方式进行构建，提供令人愉悦的 API、全面的文档和流畅的开发人员体验。

Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise-ready today.

立即访问 workos.com 让您的应用程序做好企业准备。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by vO from Vercel.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vercel 的 vO 为您带来。

vO is the web development assistant designed for professionals of all technical backgrounds.

vO 是专为所有技术背景的专业人士设计的 Web 开发助手。

Whether you're a product manager, designer, or developer, transform how you bring products to life.

无论您是产品经理、设计师还是开发人员，都可以改变将产品变为现实的方式。

With vO, everybody can cook.

有了 vO，每个人都可以做饭。

Don't just show up to reviews with docs and ideas, arrive with working prototypes that demonstrate real functionality.

不要只带着文档和想法出现在评论中，而是带着展示真实功能的工作原型来出现。

vO drafts project plans, generates interactive interfaces, and builds full stack applications without writing a single line of code.

vO 无需编写任何代码即可起草项目计划、生成交互式界面并构建全栈应用程序。

And with features like AI and database integrations, screenshot import, and sync with GitHub, vO helps reduce development bottlenecks and enhance collaboration between technical and non-technical team members.

凭借人工智能和数据库集成、屏幕截图导入以及与 GitHub 同步等功能，vO 有助于减少开发瓶颈并增强技术和非技术团队成员之间的协作。

Lenny Rachitsky: The result, faster iteration, and a shorter path from idea to implementation.

Lenny Rachitsky：结果是，迭代速度更快，从想法到实施的路径更短。

Vercel built vO for the builders who want to create at the moment of inspiration.

Vercel 为那些想要在灵感迸发的时刻进行创作的建设者打造了 vO。

If you can dream it, you can ship it.

如果你能梦想，你就能实现它。

Visit Vercel.com/lenny to get started.

请访问 Vercel.com/lenny 以开始使用。

That's Vercel.com/lenny.

这是 Vercel.com/lenny。

Elena, thank you so much for being here and welcome back to the podcast.

埃琳娜，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎回到播客。

Lenny Rachitsky: As you know, this is a record fourth time back to the podcast, no one else has ever achieved this feat.

Lenny Rachitsky：如您所知，这是创纪录的第四次重返播客，没有其他人实现过这一壮举。

I feel like you're basically my co-host now.

我觉得你现在基本上是我的共同主持人了。

Elena Verna: I love it.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：我喜欢它。

Thank you for inviting me back, I'm very proud record holder in this regard.

感谢您邀请我回来，我为这方面的记录保持者感到非常自豪。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I love about you coming back each time, it feels like every time you come back, you're just doing something even more epic and exciting.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你每次回来，感觉每次你回来，你只是在做一些更加史诗般和令人兴奋的事情。

And so, these days, as we'll hear in the intro, you're head of growth at Lovable, which no big deal on track to be the fastest or one of the fastest growing companies in history, depending on the metric that you track.

因此，这些天，正如我们将在介绍中听到的那样，您是 Lovable 的增长主管，这家公司有望成为历史上增长最快的公司或增长最快的公司之一，这没什么大不了的，具体取决于您跟踪的指标。

Let's talk about just the scale and growth of Lovable to give people a sense of just how incredible this is.

让我们谈谈 Lovable 的规模和增长，让人们感受到这是多么不可思议。

I'll share a bit of this in intro, but just what are some stats you can share about just how things are going Lovable?

我将在介绍中分享一些内容，但是您可以分享哪些关于事情进展如何的统计数据？

Elena Verna: So, we are just a little bit over one year's old since we launched.

Elena Verna：自推出以来，我们刚刚成立一年多一点。

The company actually did exist as a GPT engineer before, but it officially launched in the third week of November last year, in 2024.

该公司之前实际上确实以 GPT 工程师的身份存在，但它是在去年 11 月的第三周，即 2024 年正式推出的。

So, for us, we've hit over $200 million in annual recurring revenue before we even hit our one-year milestone since being launched.

因此，对于我们来说，在达到推出以来的一年里程碑之前，我们的年度经常性收入就已经超过了 2 亿美元。

Which is pretty incredible.

这真是令人难以置信。

You, Lenny, actually have a really great blog post on how quickly it takes for companies usually to get to their first million ARR, and it's usually multiple years.

Lenny，你实际上有一篇非常精彩的博客文章，介绍了公司通常需要多快的时间才能达到第一个 100 万 ARR，而且通常需要很多年。

So, this is definitely a unicorn, I don't think this is a standard.

所以，这绝对是独角兽，我不认为这是一个标准。

There's a couple of things that account for it, and we can talk about it, and the growth is only accelerating, so it's compounding, which is great.

有几个因素可以解释这一点，我们可以讨论一下，而且增长只会加速，所以它是复合的，这很棒。

Because we had our 100 million in end of July, and just four months later we were at 200 million.

因为我们在 7 月底就达到了 1 亿，而仅仅四个月后，我们就达到了 2 亿。

Elena Verna: So, seven months to, well, maybe eight months, to 100 million, another four months to get to 200 million.

Elena Verna：所以，七个月，嗯，也许八个月，达到 1 亿，再过四个月，达到 2 亿。

And from users too, we already have over eight million users that have tried Lovable, we have, as you can imagine, to feed that 200 million, hundreds of thousands of paid subscribers as well that are paying for us, so things are going great and we'll talk about why.

从用户来看，我们已经有超过 800 万用户尝试过 Lovable，正如你可以想象的那样，我们要养活那 2 亿、数十万付费用户，以及为我们付费的用户，所以一切进展顺利，我们将讨论原因。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Absurd.

荒诞。

I think people are getting used to these insane numbers, and not long ago is like, okay, if you hit a million ARR in a year, you're doing pretty well.

我认为人们已经习惯了这些疯狂的数字，不久前，如果你在一年内达到 100 万的 ARR，那么你就做得很好了。

Elena Verna: Yeah, yeah.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的，是的。

I think still you're doing pretty well if you have a million ARR in one year.

我认为如果你一年内获得 100 万美元的 ARR，你仍然做得很好。

This is one of the once in a lifetime type of companies, and the category, the way that it's evolving.

这是一种千载难逢的公司类型，以及它的类别和发展方式。

So, I want to make sure that people don't all of a sudden set this as a benchmark for success because it should never be.

所以，我想确保人们不会突然将此作为成功的基准，因为它永远不应该如此。

In some categories, it might be even faster as we continue evolving technology, but I don't think that it's realistic to expect it out of your business that you're starting right now.

在某些类别中，随着我们不断发展技术，它可能会更快，但我认为期望它从您现在开始的业务中消失是不现实的。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is such an important point you're making there, it's so discouraging to founders to hear these stories of getting 200 million.

Lenny Rachitsky：您在这里提出的观点非常重要，创始人听到这些获得 2 亿美元的故事非常沮丧。

And again, this is ARR.

再说一次，这是 ARR。

There's a lot of companies, especially in the data labeling space, I've had them all on the podcast, that are very fast-growing, but they're not recurring revenue.

有很多公司，特别是在数据标签领域，我已经将它们全部放在播客上，它们增长非常快，但它们没有经常性收入。

There's also, they pay out their people to do this data labeling.

此外，他们还花钱请人来做数据标记。

So, the revenue numbers there don't really equate.

因此，那里的收入数字并不真正相等。

Recurring $200 million a year is absurd.

每年 2 亿美元的经常性是荒谬的。

Elena Verna: Yeah, it is absurd.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：是的，这很荒谬。

I really want to make sure that people understand as we go through this episode as to why it's happening, because part of it is on Lovable, part of it is just in the market and how it's moving.

我真的想确保人们在我们经历这一集时理解为什么会发生这种情况，因为它的一部分是在 Lovable 上，一部分是在市场上以及它是如何发展的。

So, when you're setting yourself as a benchmark, so you know which benchmarks you actually to use, and whether Lovable is the benchmark that you should be using.

因此，当您将自己设置为基准时，您就知道您实际要使用哪些基准，以及 Lovable 是否是您应该使用的基准。

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

I'm going to get into that next.

接下来我将详细介绍这一点。

Last question, just I want to see what you can share here.

最后一个问题，我想看看你可以在这里分享什么。

A lot of people look at these numbers, a lot of people are very skeptical these are lasting, durable numbers.

很多人关注这些数字，很多人非常怀疑这些数字是否持久。

Like who are these people?

比如这些人是谁？

How is there $200 million being spent on Lovable?

2亿美元是怎么花在Lovable上的？

Anything you can add about, just give people confidence, is this real, this is going to last, this is a really durable business.

你可以添加的任何内容，只要给人们信心，这是真实的，这会持续下去，这是一个真正持久的业务。

Elena Verna: Well, I saw Stripe receipts, so it is real, as far as I'm concerned, unless Stripe dashboard is lying to us.

Elena Verna：嗯，我看到了 Stripe 收据，所以就我而言，它是真实的，除非 Stripe 仪表板对我们撒谎。

But it is money getting deposited in our bank account.

但这是存入我们银行账户的钱。

But let's talk about who is actually contributing to that number.

但让我们谈谈谁实际上为这个数字做出了贡献。

We do have a really large use case of people starting their own companies on Lovable, so we call it a founder use case.

我们确实有一个非常大的用例，人们在 Lovable 上创办自己的公司，所以我们称之为创始人用例。

Where somebody that is non-technical, that has never been able to code or create a piece of software is now able to come in and actually build an app completely from scratch.

以前从未能够编码或创建软件的非技术人员现在能够介入并完全从头开始构建应用程序。

And some of them are already monetizing it, some of it just using it for other services, or some physical goods, for example, that they're selling.

其中一些已经将其货币化，其中一些只是将其用于其他服务，或者例如他们正在销售的一些实物商品。

Some of them are just still building.

其中一些仍在建设中。

And we monetize on the act of building, so that progression of building up to your product market fit takes quite a bit of time.

我们通过构建行为获利，因此构建适合您的产品市场的过程需要相当多的时间。

Elena Verna: And even with Lovable, we're so much more efficient and effective compared to hiring an engineer in terms of the price, but it still takes time.

Elena Verna：即使有了 Lovable，就价格而言，我们比雇用工程师要高效得多，但仍然需要时间。

So, we have a lot of founders, whether it's B2C, whether there's B2B, so consumer products, business products, e-commerce, whatever it is.

所以，我们有很多创始人，无论是B2C，无论是B2B，消费品、商业产品、电子商务，无论是什么。

But on the other side, we have a lot of employees within companies using Lovable as well, where they're building internal tools, or they're building prototypes, they're building landing pages.

但另一方面，我们公司内有很多员工也在使用 Lovable，他们正在构建内部工具，或者他们正在构建原型，他们正在构建登陆页面。

So, that is another use case that is very relevant and quite efficient for us, but then there is a hype and discovery that is happening as well.

因此，这是另一个对我们来说非常相关且非常高效的用例，但随之而来的是一场炒作和发现。

Because when I think about software, I think about it, I talked to John Cutler actually, and he gave me this framework that is completely stuck in my mind, of software always goes through capabilities stage first, so what is possible to actually create with this?

因为当我想到软件时，我想到了这一点，我实际上与 John Cutler 交谈过，他给了我这个完全扎根在我脑海中的框架，软件总是首先经历功能阶段，那么用这个实际创建什么是可能的呢？

Elena Verna: Then, it needs to transition into value, of how is it that am I going to get value out of this?

Elena Verna：那么，它需要转变为价值，我如何从中获得价值？

And then you can start thinking about scaling it, of which aspects of my life and my work that can actually go in?

然后你可以开始考虑扩展它，我的生活和工作的哪些方面可以真正参与其中？

And we're right now very much in the capability stage with vibe coding, because everybody's just exploring, what can I do?

我们现在正处于振动编码的能力阶段，因为每个人都在探索，我能做什么？

And the beautiful thing here is that what you can do changes every month to three months.

这里的美妙之处在于，你可以做的事情每个月到三个月都会发生变化。

So, you constantly need to come back and you need to see what has changed.

所以，你需要不断地回来看看发生了什么变化。

So, a lot of people use it for personal reasons.

因此，很多人出于个人原因使用它。

I build myself apps, tutoring apps for my kid, so he has to answer questions in order to get some screen time accumulated for him.

我自己开发应用程序，为我的孩子辅导应用程序，所以他必须回答问题才能为他积累一些屏幕时间。

I build my own portfolio.

我建立自己的投资组合。

Elena Verna: I see people doing wonderful things, my favorite story that I always say, there's this man that created a proposal on Lovable.

Elena Verna：我看到人们做了很棒的事情，我最喜欢的故事是我经常说的，有一个人在 Lovable 上提出了一个提案。

So, his fiance had to answer questions and she had to complete this game, and then at the end there was this big reveal and he proposed to her.

所以，他的未婚夫必须回答问题，她必须完成这个游戏，然后最后出现了这个大揭露，他向她求婚了。

But people just unlock the most creative things that they build on Lovable, and that's where the revenue is coming from.

但人们只是解锁了他们在 Lovable 上构建的最具创意的东西，这就是收入的来源。

The one piece that is working very well for us in terms of how our monetization model is, set up and how it interjects with your activation moment, which we can also cover, but that is what's driving both conversion and retention rates.

就我们的盈利模式如何设置、如何与您的激活时刻相结合而言，这一点对我们来说非常有效，我们也可以涵盖这一点，但这正是推动转化率和保留率的原因。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me ask you one question that's on people's minds, I imagine, as you talk about this, just what does retention look like?

Lenny Rachitsky：让我问你一个人们关心的问题，我想，当你谈论这个问题时，保留是什么样的？

Elena Verna: Yeah.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

So, retention, really, I look at it in two ways, retention, that it comes as a subscriber retention.

所以，保留率，实际上，我从两种角度看待它，保留率，即订阅者保留率。

So, how much subscribers do we get, and how many of them are we capable of renewing?

那么，我们有多少订阅者，我们有能力续订多少订阅者？

There's also very important aspect of it is, how many of them can we expand?

还有一个非常重要的方面是，我们可以扩展多少个？

Because if you can get positive or above 100% net dollar retention, which is super important metric for investors...

因为如果你能获得正数或高于 100% 的净美元保留率，这对投资者来说是非常重要的指标......

If you don't know about net dollar retention, please read it up, that's like a superpower to get bigger multiple if you can show NDR that is over 100.

如果您不了解净美元保留率，请阅读它，如果您能显示超过 100 的 NDR，这就像获得更大倍数的超级大国。

And then there's actually engagement retention as well, because that is the leading indicator for how your paid retention is going to look like.

然后实际上还有参与度保留，因为这是付费保留的主要指标。

For paid retention, I know there is so much on the market of, oh, this is a high product, and it's a leaky bucket, and it has really high churn rates.

对于付费保留，我知道市场上有很多，哦，这是一个高产品，而且它是一个漏桶，而且它的流失率非常高。

Elena Verna: Although, I shouldn't share, it's not public numbers for us to share actual retention, however, what I can say, it's on par with benchmarks of other B2B SaaS products that I've ever worked at.

Elena Verna：虽然，我不应该分享，这不是我们分享实际保留率的公开数据，但是，我可以说，它与我曾经工作过的其他 B2B SaaS 产品的基准相当。

And I worked with Miro, Dropbox, SurveyMonkey, Netlify, Amplitude, and others.

我还与 Miro、Dropbox、SurveyMonkey、Netlify、Amplitude 等合作。

So, are we absolutely crushing with paid retention?

那么，我们真的对付费保留感到失望吗？

No. Are we where most of the other companies are?

不。我们和其他大多数公司一样吗？

Yes.

是的。

Our NDR is quite good because when people build, they want to buy more credits to build.

我们的 NDR 非常好，因为当人们建造时，他们想要购买更多的信用来建造。

So, we're seeing really good revenue retention, but we're honestly more focused right now on engagement retention than even paid retention because our North Star is just to get as much usage as possible, and we will fix and tune our monetization model afterwards.

因此，我们看到了非常好的收入保留，但老实说，我们现在更关注参与保留，甚至比付费保留更重要，因为我们的北极星只是为了获得尽可能多的使用，之后我们将修复和调整我们的货币化模型。

So, engagement retention, I would say, is a by far bigger priority focus for us at the moment.

因此，我想说，保持参与度是我们目前更重要的优先重点。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is incredibly interesting, and I'm optimistic to hear because of the growth rate.

Lenny Rachitsky：这非常有趣，而且由于增长率，我对此感到乐观。

Rarely is growth rate this high and retention is on par with great companies.

如此高的增长率和保留率与伟大的公司相当是罕见的。

Elena Verna: Yeah.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

And I'll just say too, which is a little bit maybe counterintuitive would be to a lot of companies, we don't optimize for revenue at all.

我也想说，这对很多公司来说可能有点违反直觉，我们根本不针对收入进行优化。

In fact, internally, we have a lot of discussions about how can we give more products away, how can we reduce our revenue growth rate by just getting more paid subscribers, more users using Lovable, to just get bigger share of the market.

事实上，在内部，我们进行了很多讨论，讨论如何赠送更多产品，如何通过获得更多付费订阅者、更多使用 Lovable 的用户来降低收入增长率，从而获得更大的市场份额。

So, our revenue is an outcome of us just trying to get more people through the door, not us trying to optimize for revenue per user, or to get them to monetize at the higher rate.

因此，我们的收入是我们只是试图吸引更多人进入的结果，而不是我们试图优化每个用户的收入，或者让他们以更高的速度货币化。

So, there's a very interesting path here, where, by actually focusing on the inputs, like you should, it translates to a good output, but we don't look at that output as something that we're trying to grow.

所以，这里有一条非常有趣的路径，通过像你应该的那样真正关注输入，它会转化为良好的输出，但我们不会将该输出视为我们试图增长的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about growth, let's talk about what you've learned about growth in this space.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们谈谈增长，让我们谈谈您对这个领域的增长的了解。

You had this post online where you said that you've had to throw out most of your growth playbook.

您在网上发表了这篇文章，其中您说您必须扔掉大部分的成长策略。

This is a huge deal, you've led growth a lot of really successful companies.

这是一件大事，你领导了许多真正成功的公司的增长。

Lovable is growing incredibly well, this tells me there's a lot we can learn from what you've seen.

Lovable 的成长非常好，这告诉我我们可以从你所看到的事情中学到很多东西。

So, tell us what you're seeing, what's still working, what's not working, what you've learned about what it takes to drive growth at a company like Lovable.

那么，请告诉我们您看到了什么，什么仍然有效，什么无效，以及您了解到如何推动像 Lovable 这样的公司实现增长。

Elena Verna: Yeah.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

I would say that in any other role that I've come into before, I felt confident in about 80% of the patterns that I can bring to that role, meaning that I can identify inputs, understand which framework applies.

我想说的是，在我之前担任过的任何其他角色中，我对我可以为该角色带来的大约 80% 的模式充满信心，这意味着我可以识别输入，了解适用哪个框架。

I know a lot of examples that fit in within that framework, so we just need to localize a solution and push, and it was quite productive in terms of getting a company those additional acquisition, conversion, engagement, monetization rates.

我知道很多适合这个框架的例子，所以我们只需要本地化一个解决方案并推动，并且在让公司获得额外的收购、转化、参与度和货币化率方面非常富有成效。

So, I felt very repetitive in a way, after some time, because I feel like I'm just coming in and copy, pasting, copy, pasting...

所以，一段时间后，我感觉在某种程度上非常重复，因为我觉得我只是进来复制，粘贴，复制，粘贴......

And although every single company loves to say that they have unique problems, at the end of the day, all of the problems were very similar.

尽管每家公司都喜欢说自己有独特的问题，但归根结底，所有的问题都非常相似。

And I felt like I was doing the same job over and over again.

我觉得我一遍又一遍地做同样的工作。

When I started at Lovable, the one thing to me that was very clear is that this company was growing like crazy before I joined.

当我开始在 Lovable 工作时，我非常清楚的一件事是，在我加入之前，这家公司正在疯狂地发展。

Elena Verna: So, I want to make sure that there's not that much value on what I have even added today, because this company is on the tear, and yes, we're rounding the edges and removing barriers for growth, so we're not standing in our own way, but there's something more magical happening here that is not a pattern that I've ever seen before.

Elena Verna：所以，我想确保我今天添加的内容没有那么大的价值，因为这家公司正处于困境中，是的，我们正在磨平边缘并消除增长障碍，所以我们不会阻碍我们自己的方式，但这里发生了一些更神奇的事情，这是我以前从未见过的模式。

It's not a framework that I can even conceptualize in my head.

这不是一个我什至可以在脑海中概念化的框架。

And plus, it's a new category that I've never seen, or I've never been in a company that is in a new emerging category, that hits fast moving water so quickly.

另外，这是一个我从未见过的新类别，或者我从未加入过一家处于新兴类别的公司，它的发展速度如此之快。

And that's the difference because when you're usually trying to create a new category, it takes years.

这就是区别，因为当你通常尝试创建一个新类别时，需要花费数年时间。

I know it's every marketer's dream to create a new category, but it takes decades often to really get that much hype and adoption around it.

我知道创建一个新类别是每个营销人员的梦想，但通常需要数十年的时间才能真正获得如此多的宣传和采用。

Versus with vibe coating, this hype seemed to have happened really quickly.

与振动涂层相比，这种炒作似乎发生得非常快。

Elena Verna: It's like it's hit the nerve with the market.

Elena Verna：这就像触动了市场的神经。

So, yes, we're at the right place, we're at the right time, but we're also in really fast moving waters, and the demand that is coming to us, we need to capture it mostly, we don't need to generate a lot of it yet.

所以，是的，我们处于正确的位置，我们处于正确的时间，但我们也处于快速变化的水域，我们需要抓住大部分需求，但我们还不需要产生大量需求。

But at the same time, it comes with the really big downfalls of we're not in control of a lot of our growth.

但与此同时，它也伴随着我们无法控制大部分增长的真正巨大的失败。

Let's be honest about it, there's so much incredible word of mouth that is happening, and we're trying to grow that, but to enable as much of that as possible, but the company is moving, we're just hanging on to it as fast as possible, and making sure that we're not going to hit a wall, so to speak, in front of us, and that the wheels are greased, and that all of the pieces are in places.

老实说，正在发生如此多令人难以置信的口碑，我们正在努力发展这种口碑，但为了尽可能多地实现这一点，但公司正在前进，我们只是尽快抓住它，并确保我们不会撞到墙上，可以这么说，在我们面前，并且轮子已经润滑，并且所有部件都就位。

It's like your race car framework that you have as well.

这就像您拥有的赛车框架一样。

Elena Verna: We're really just putting a lot of oil into it, and figuring out what is our engine actually going to be that is going to take us forward.

Elena Verna：我们实际上只是在其中投入了大量的油，并弄清楚我们的引擎实际上是什么，这将推动我们前进。

But when I'm thinking about the patterns here, and what I have to unlearn, I feel like only 30 to 40% of what I've learned in the last 15 to 20 years of being in growth transfers here.

但当我思考这里的模式以及我必须忘掉的东西时，我觉得我在过去 15 到 20 年的成长过程中学到的东西中只有 30% 到 40% 转移到了这里。

And some of it is very straightforward, okay, this is how you're going to do paid marketing, this is how you're going to do some of the habitual retention, here's the free to pay maybe monetization frameworks that still stand.

其中一些非常简单，好吧，这就是你将如何进行付费营销，这就是你将如何进行一些习惯性保留，这是仍然存在的免费付费也许货币化框架。

But the rest of it, honestly, it doesn't feel like it even matters anymore, because we just need to invest in such bigger bets, and innovate, and create new growth loops here, as opposed to trying to optimize it to the moon and beyond, which I usually be focused on in a scaled business like this.

但老实说，剩下的事情似乎不再重要了，因为我们只需要投入更大的赌注，进行创新，并在这里创造新的增长循环，而不是试图将其优化到月球及更远的地方，而我通常在这样的规模化业务中专注于这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's follow those threads.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们关注这些线索。

So, what is it that no longer is worth it in this bucket of just like, let's not spend any time on this thing, and then what do you find is actually moving the needle?

那么，在这个桶中，有什么不再值得，我们不要在这件事上花任何时间，然后你发现什么真正在推动针呢？

Elena Verna: Not worth it, in growth, most of the people spend most of the time optimizing existing user journeys.

Elena Verna：不值得，在增长过程中，大多数人大部分时间都花在优化现有用户旅程上。

So, you already have maybe some of your growth loops that you understand that you try to optimize or you just know, hey, there's big drop-offs from acquisition to activation, let me go figure out how to...

所以，你可能已经有了一些增长循环，你知道你正在尝试优化，或者你只是知道，嘿，从获取到激活有很大的下降，让我来弄清楚如何......

I can tweak the dials to get it done.

我可以调整旋钮来完成它。

Here, what I find is that optimizations are just not worth our time.

在这里，我发现优化不值得我们花时间。

So, a lot of the times my growth team actually ends up working on new features, or just standing up new growth loops one after another, and yes, there's of course the saying of more growth loops does not mean more growth, but at the same time, the market is moving so quickly, you need to stand up a bunch of initiatives to capture it because it's perishable.

所以，很多时候我的增长团队实际上最终会开发新功能，或者只是一个接一个地建立新的增长循环，是的，当然有人说更多的增长循环并不意味着更多的增长，但与此同时，市场变化如此之快，你需要采取一系列举措来抓住它，因为它是容易消亡的。

Elena Verna: Or we also have so much competition.

Elena Verna：或者我们也有很多竞争。

We're not alone here, so we can't ignore that there's everybody in their mother is starting a vibe coding business nowadays, and we need to figure out how to be ahead of them.

我们并不孤单，所以我们不能忽视，他们母亲中的每个人现在都在开始从事氛围编码业务，我们需要弄清楚如何领先于他们。

And to be ahead of them is not optimization of the problem, it's reinvention of the solution.

领先他们并不是优化问题，而是重新发明解决方案。

So, I just feel like I usually spend maybe 5%, maybe 10% if I'm lucky, innovating on growth in my roles, in my previous roles, right now, I'm spending 95% innovating on growth, and only 5% on optimization.

所以，我觉得我通常会花5%，如果幸运的话，可能会花10%，在我的角色的增长上进行创新，在我之前的角色中，现在，我花95%在增长上创新，只有5%在优化上。

And most of my frameworks are on optimization because it's really hard to come up with frameworks for innovation because by default there, by definition, they're innovative.

我的大多数框架都在优化，因为很难提出创新框架，因为默认情况下，根据定义，它们是创新的。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm hearing here is new features.

Lenny Rachitsky：我在这里听到的是新功能。

Launching new features, product is one of the bigger growth levers, versus you have a bunch of cool stuff, make it easier to use, increase activation, reduce friction, things like that.

推出新功能，产品是更大的增长杠杆之一，与你拥有一堆很酷的东西相比，它更容易使用，增加激活，减少摩擦，诸如此类。

Elena Verna: Yeah.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

And for example, we on growth team launched integration with Shopify, to enable e-commerce use case, because we're like, hey, there's already people trying to come in and do it, Shopify was open for integration with us, let's go lean into it so people can vibe code their storefronts.

例如，我们的增长团队启动了与 Shopify 的集成，以实现电子商务用例，因为我们就像，嘿，已经有人尝试进来做这件事，Shopify 愿意与我们集成，让我们深入研究它，以便人们可以对他们的店面进行编码。

That came out of growth, that usually would never come out of growth.

这是来自增长，通常永远不会来自增长。

Why would growth team ever invest into a core product integration?

为什么增长团队会投资于核心产品集成？

Or we enabled voice mode for people so they can actually chat with Lovable using their voice, as opposed to only having type.

或者我们为人们启用了语音模式，这样他们就可以使用语音与 Lovable 聊天，而不是仅仅通过打字。

And that's also, it's a feature, it's a core product feature, but we're like, hey, it's going to help people to converse with Lovable more, it's going to increase the engagement.

这也是一个功能，它是一个核心产品功能，但我们想，嘿，它将帮助人们与 Lovable 更多地交谈，它将增加参与度。

Elena Verna: One area that we've spent very little time in is activation, because usually I spend majority of my time in activation because there's so many awareness things that need to happen, and so many things that we need to smooth out experience for the users in order for them to get through that setup moment, to aha moment, to the habit loop, and here you're just interacting with agent.

Elena Verna：我们花费很少时间的一个领域是激活，因为通常我大部分时间都花在激活上，因为需要发生很多意识方面的事情，我们需要平滑用户体验的事情很多，以便他们能够度过准备时刻，到顿悟时刻，到习惯循环，而在这里，你只是与代理交互。

So, we, at the beginning, we're like, the agent team that we have here is working a lot on it.

所以，一开始，我们的代理团队正在为此做很多工作。

Why would we go in there and do anything?

我们为什么要进去做任何事情？

It's like our core team is responsible for activation.

就像我们的核心团队负责激活一样。

Now, we're starting to move into doing agent work ourselves, so all of a sudden growth team is not just doing product surfaces, now we're doing agentic workflows and codifying agent instructions in order for customers to activate better.

现在，我们开始自己做代理工作，所以突然间增长的团队不仅仅是做产品表面，现在我们正在做代理工作流程并编写代理指令，以便客户更好地激活。

Elena Verna: So, the work fundamentally, I feel like has gotten deeper into product, and deeper into actual core product functionality, as opposed to just being a smoothing surface on the outer layers.

Elena Verna：所以，从根本上来说，我觉得这项工作已经深入到产品中，深入到实际的核心产品功能中，而不仅仅是外层的平滑表面。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, that is also a very big deal, every growth person that's ever been on this podcast, including you, always talks about the power of activation, just how much opportunity there is to get people to this aha moment, realize the value of this product, that increases retention and increases everything.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，这也是一件非常重要的事情，每一个参与过这个播客的成长人士，包括你，总是谈论激活的力量，有多少机会让人们进入这个顿悟时刻，认识到这个产品的价值，这可以增加保留率并增加一切。

And what you're saying here is you barely spend any time on activation because in a company like Lovable, there's a prompt, you give it what you want, it generates a thing, and that's basically all it is.

你在这里所说的是你几乎不花任何时间在激活上，因为在像Lovable这样的公司里，有一个提示，你给它你想要的东西，它会生成一个东西，基本上就是这样。

And so, the impact is to make that agent better...

因此，影响是使该代理变得更好......

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

basically all it is.

基本上就是全部了。

And so the impact is to make that agent better at that thing, versus micro-optimize every step.

因此，影响是让代理在这件事上做得更好，而不是对每一步进行微观优化。

Elena Verna: And our agent team spends night and day thinking about it.

Elena Verna：我们的经纪人团队日以继夜地思考这个问题。

So I've never been at a company where core team thinks so much about activation, thinks so much about that first generation, thinks so much about reaching a-ha moment.

所以我从来没有在一家公司的核心团队对激活、对第一代、对达到顿悟时刻考虑得那么多。

So it's more weaved in into DNA of the overall company, which takes the pressure off of me to only have to focus on it.

因此，它更多地融入了整个公司的 DNA，这减轻了我只需要专注于它的压力。

Because otherwise, yeah, I would be in that experience all the time.

因为否则，是的，我会一直处于这种经历中。

Elena Verna: But I feel a lot more at ease, because everybody's thinking about it and everybody's working on making agents better.

Elena Verna：但我感觉轻松多了，因为每个人都在思考这个问题，每个人都在努力让代理变得更好。

And agent, the beauty of it is it doesn't matter if it's actually first generation or if it's your Nth generation.

特工，它的美妙之处在于，它实际上是第一代还是你的第 N 代并不重要。

It just needs to be a better generation.

它只是需要成为更好的一代。

Agent needs to understand your intent better, and think and reason behind it.

代理需要更好地理解您的意图，并思考其背后的原因。

So it improves the entire lifecycle immediately as opposed to having to only work on that first experience per se.

因此，它可以立即改善整个生命周期，而不是仅仅专注于第一次体验本身。

Lenny Rachitsky: And what you're not saying is, "Don't care about that experience," it's, "The team building that is already obsessed with making that activation experience better and better."

Lenny Rachitsky：你所说的不是“不要关心这种体验”，而是“团队建设已经痴迷于让激活体验变得越来越好。”

Elena Verna: Exactly, exactly.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：完全正确。

I love that, because that's the core product functionality at this point.

我喜欢这一点，因为这是目前的核心产品功能。

And before people would spend more time building deeper features, or deeper use cases, or trying to improve some platform functionality.

在此之前，人们会花更多时间构建更深入的功能，或更深入的用例，或尝试改进某些平台功能。

And now the core team, they're obsessed about that first experience because that is core product.

现在的核心团队，他们痴迷于第一次体验，因为那是核心产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: Another lever that I've noticed, especially with Lovable, and I'm seeing it more and more on social media is just founders telling you what's going on.

Lenny Rachitsky：我注意到的另一个杠杆，尤其是 Lovable，而且我在社交媒体上越来越多地看到它，就是创始人告诉你正在发生的事情。

I think this connects really deeply with the new features.

我认为这与新功能确实有很深的联系。

Launch new features.

推出新功能。

Say Anton is just like, "Hey, check out this cool new thing.

说安东就像是，“嘿，看看这个很酷的新东西。

Check out our growth numbers." Is that a big growth lever too?

看看我们的增长数字。”这也是一个很大的增长杠杆吗？

Elena Verna: Yeah.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

So one of our biggest strategy is building in public.

因此，我们最大的战略之一就是公开建设。

Building in public, and it's coupled with employee socials, founder-led socials for sure.

在公共场所进行建设，并且与员工社交活动、创始人主导的社交活动相结合。

This is difficult for larger companies.

这对于大公司来说是很困难的。

But when you're smaller and you still have a little bit more narrative control with everybody on your team, plus you have so much more trust within the organization, where people are going to say the right things because they understand what actually has happened, that ability to just really quickly deliver the message to the market becomes really important.

但是，当你规模较小时，你对团队中的每个人仍然有更多的叙述控制权，再加上你在组织内有更多的信任，人们会说正确的话，因为他们了解实际发生的事情，这种快速向市场传递信息的能力变得非常重要。

Elena Verna: Now, we still do the big launches, so we still have everything tiered into tier three, two, one.

Elena Verna：现在，我们仍然会进行大型发布，因此我们仍然将所有内容分为三级、二级、一级。

Tier ones are going to happen as big moments that we're going to really rally as a company behind.

一级将作为重大时刻发生，我们将作为一家公司真正团结起来。

And it's going to be something that is meant to step function, change our product market fit, and we're going to do a bunch of activities behind it.

这将是为了提升功能、改变我们的产品市场契合度，我们将在其背后开展一系列活动。

Elena Verna: But at the same time, what's really important to us is to maintain noise in the market.

Elena Verna：但与此同时，对我们来说真正重要的是保持市场的噪音。

And that noise in the market happens by us shipping every day, every other day, multiple times per day and just talking about it constantly.

市场上的噪音是由我们每天、每隔一天、每天多次发货并不断谈论它而产生的。

Interestingly enough, it's actually works fantastic resurrection strategy, because people are like, "Oh, there's more things here.

有趣的是，它实际上是一种奇妙的复活策略，因为人们会说，“哦，这里还有更多东西。

I need to go check it out."

我得去看看。”

Elena Verna: It also works as a great reengagement strategy.

Elena Verna：这也是一个很好的重新参与策略。

So instead of sending newsletters to say, "Here's the market trends or here's the user stories," people are literally logging into their social to say, "Okay, what has Lovable shipped now?" It's like, "What is the change?" So it's interesting to them to see, because from the time that they voice their opinion on what needs to happen to actual delivery is so short, so they feel heard.

因此，人们不再发送时事通讯说“这是市场趋势或这是用户故事”，而是登录他们的社交媒体说：“好吧，Lovable 现在推出了什么？”就像“有什么变化？”所以他们看到这一点很有趣，因为从他们对需要发生的事情发表意见到实际交付的时间是如此之短，所以他们感觉自己被听到了。

And they are heard, because that's how we prioritize all of the things that we're shipping.

他们的声音会被听到，因为这就是我们对我们正在运送的所有东西进行优先排序的方式。

But it's interesting, because I've never been in a company that tries to maintain so much just shipping velocity to maintain a certain amount of noise that it feels like the product is alive.

但这很有趣，因为我从来没有在一家公司试图保持如此多的运输速度，以保持一定的噪音，让人感觉产品是有生命的。

It's changing every single week.

它每周都在变化。

And then there's these big amplifications, turbo boost so to speak, in the race car model, that then go out and they fundamentally create a step function change in that product market fit as a whole.

然后，在赛车模型中，会出现这些巨大的放大作用，可以说是涡轮增压，然后它们就会从根本上在整个产品市场中产生阶跃功能变化。

And that is a retention strategy I can get behind any day and all day.

这是我每天都可以坚持的保留策略。

I only hope that we can maintain it as we continue scaling.

我只希望我们能够在继续扩展的过程中维持它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Sounds stressful.

Lenny Rachitsky：听起来很有压力。

This reminds me, I had a...

这让我想起，我曾经有一...

Gaurav, he's the CEO of Mirage.

Gaurav，他是 Mirage 的首席执行官。

Used to be called Captions, which is a really successful AI video company startup.

以前叫Captions，是一家非常成功的AI视频公司初创公司。

And they have a policy of you ship a marketable feature every week.

他们有一项政策，要求你每周发布一个适销对路的功能。

That's how their company operates.

他们的公司就是这样运作的。

And it's the same thing, it's just ship things you can talk about.

这是同样的事情，只是发布一些你可以谈论的东西。

Elena Verna: Velocity of shipping is our number one core value in development team.

Elena Verna：运输速度是我们开发团队的第一核心价值。

So we do anything and everything to just keep it going up, up, up and into the right.

所以我们会尽一切努力让它继续向上、向上、向上并进入右侧。

And by the way, this also means that everybody has a little bit of marketer within them.

顺便说一句，这也意味着每个人身上都含有一点营销人员。

We have very lean product organization.

我们有非常精益的产品组织。

We actually lean on our engineers to do a lot of product work.

实际上，我们依靠我们的工程师来完成很多产品工作。

We call them product engineers, and they have to go and they have to announce the thing that they've shipped.

我们称他们为产品工程师，他们必须离开，他们必须宣布他们已经发货的东西。

It doesn't just funnel through marketing.

它不仅仅通过营销传播。

Elena Verna: So there is a lot of autonomy, a lot of agency that needs to happen with this type of velocity.

Elena Verna：因此，在这种速度下，需要有很多自主权和代理权。

Because otherwise, you have to have enormous marketing team to staff that.

因为否则的话，你就必须拥有庞大的营销团队来配备。

So it has to come with some roles and responsibilities.

因此它必须具有一些角色和责任。

Redefinition on the team as well.

对团队的重新定义也是如此。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's talk about marketing.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们来谈谈营销吧。

That's something else you've written about is just marketing is changing in a big way, their role in growth.

您还写过其他内容，营销在增长中的作用正在发生巨大变化。

How does marketing play a role in all of this?

营销在这一切中如何发挥作用？

Elena Verna: On one side, marketing channels are changing.

Elena Verna：一方面，营销渠道正在发生变化。

On the other side, marketing's involvement into everything that product does is changing.

另一方面，营销对产品所做的一切的参与正在发生变化。

And then number three, I think even marketing organizations in terms of where they hire the most are changing as a result as well.

第三，我认为即使是营销组织在招聘最多的地方也正在发生变化。

So I'll talk about second one first, just because we just talked about shipping, and that is...

所以我先谈谈第二个，因为我们刚刚谈到了运输，那就是......

Yeah, you still have your product marketers, you still have your channel managers.

是的，你仍然有你的产品营销人员，你仍然有你的渠道经理。

But they focus more on the big things and the narratives.

但他们更关注大事和故事。

Elena Verna: Although it's difficult, because the narrative even changes all the time.

Elena Verna：虽然这很困难，因为叙事甚至一直在变化。

As these functionalities come through, usually you can come up with a positioning and messaging, and you can have it for years and create all of the campaigns around it.

随着这些功能的出现，通常您可以提出定位和消息传递，并且您可以保留它多年并围绕它创建所有营销活动。

Now, you have it for three months, and then the product changes.

现在，您已经使用了三个月，然后产品就会发生变化。

So the cycles here are really, really short.

所以这里的周期真的非常短。

And for smaller changes, because cycles are so short, they spend so much time actually focusing on it as they should.

对于较小的变化，由于周期很短，他们花了很多时间真正关注它，这是他们应该做的。

Elena Verna: But some of these smaller changes just cannot be supported by marketing.

Elena Verna：但是其中一些较小的变化无法通过营销来支持。

You have to delegate it to your product and engineering team to do their own marketing, because otherwise, again, you'd have to have an enormous marketing team in order to support it all.

您必须将其委托给您的产品和工程团队来进行自己的营销，因为否则，您将必须拥有一支庞大的营销团队来支持这一切。

Elena Verna: But at the same time, channels in which marketing right now works I think are changing quite a bit.

Elena Verna：但与此同时，我认为目前营销的渠道正在发生很大变化。

And not enough people I feel like are freaking out and talking about it, as opposed to moving just in the same direction over and over again.

我觉得没有足够多的人感到害怕并谈论它，而不是一遍又一遍地朝着同一个方向前进。

And the changes that I'm seeing is that it has been very clear to me that when you're talking about marketing organic strategy, if you asked me that five years ago, I would've said that's SEO.

我看到的变化是，我很清楚，当你谈论营销有机策略时，如果你五年前问我这个问题，我会说那就是搜索引擎优化。

It's search engine optimization.

这是搜索引擎优化。

Go on Google, that's your organic marketing strategy.

上谷歌吧，这就是你的有机营销策略。

Elena Verna: If you ask me what's your organic marketing strategy right now, to me it's all about social.

Elena Verna：如果你问我现在的有机营销策略是什么，对我来说，这都是关于社交的。

Which is what is my CEO posting?

我的 CEO 发布的内容是什么？

What is my team posting?

我的团队发布了什么？

What is my creator economy doing?

我的创造者经济在做什么？

Influencer marketing, and across all of the social platforms.

有影响力的营销，以及跨所有社交平台。

That is my organic, which is...

那是我的有机物，这是...

That one's paid, to be fair.

公平地说，那个人是付费的。

But when I think about organic, there is still a lot of that word of mouth.

但当我想到有机食品时，仍然有很多口碑。

What are my users posting on social?

我的用户在社交媒体上发布了什么？

What are they talking about it?

他们在谈论什么？

What are they sharing?

他们分享什么？

Elena Verna: Which is a mind shift, because I've been always...

Elena Verna：这是一个思想转变，因为我一直......

Especially in B2B, so focused on search.

尤其是在B2B领域，所以专注于搜索。

And now I feel like it's been completely pushed even further into consumerization territory, and it has become all about social no matter how B2B you are, because that's where eyeballs are at.

现在我觉得它已经完全被推向了消费化领域，无论你是怎样的 B2B，它都已经变成了社交，因为这就是眼球所在。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is fascinating.

Lenny Rachitsky：这很有趣。

And so when you talk about socials, what are you finding is most helpful?

那么，当您谈论社交时，您发现什么对您最有帮助？

Is it Twitter/X?

是 Twitter/X 吗？

Is it LinkedIn?

是领英吗？

Is it YouTube, TikTok, Instagram?

是 YouTube、TikTok、Instagram 吗？

Elena Verna: For founder socials, our employee socials, X and LinkedIn are fantastic sources.

Elena Verna：对于创始人社交、我们的员工社交、X 和 LinkedIn 来说都是极好的来源。

Especially for B2B, because that's where all of the BBWB people are at.

特别是对于 B2B 而言，因为这是所有 BBWB 人员的所在。

But you cannot just have ChatGPT write your copy and post it, you need to show personality.

但你不能只是让 ChatGPT 写下你的副本并发布它，你需要表现出个性。

There needs to be humanity that it goes through it.

需要有人性才能经历它。

And it's not natural for everybody, and it feels very awkward sometimes to start.

这对每个人来说都不是自然的，有时开始感觉很尴尬。

But it's important to people to see who is building the company, because there's so much competition now on functionality, so they can rally behind a team.

但对于人们来说，了解谁在建立公司很重要，因为现在功能方面的竞争非常激烈，因此他们可以团结在团队后面。

Elena Verna: So they want to have a team that they want to win.

Elena Verna：所以他们想要拥有一支他们想要获胜的球队。

And for that, you need to be vulnerable, you need to be authentic, obviously, but you just need to be yourself.

为此，你需要变得脆弱，你需要真实，显然，但你只需要做你自己。

That corporate scrubbing has to completely fall off, which is obviously going to pull in as the company scales.

公司的清理工作必须完全停止，这显然会随着公司规模的扩大而受到影响。

But at least at the beginning, that is your chance to stand out.

但至少在一开始，这是你脱颖而出的机会。

Elena Verna: And then your customers posting about you.

Elena Verna：然后您的客户发布有关您的信息。

So that word of mouth of really creating a product that creates something for customers that is worth talking about.

因此，真正创造出为客户创造值得谈论的东西的产品的口碑。

It gives them stories that they want to share, that feels empowering to them to tell to others like they're unlocking a secret.

它为他们提供了他们想要分享的故事，让他们感觉有能力向他人讲述，就像他们正在解开一个秘密一样。

They feel proud of what they have created.

他们为自己所创造的东西感到自豪。

Elena Verna: Which what we focus a lot on, Lovable on, to have that feeling of, "Oh my gosh, I have superpowers now and I can't wait to tell others.

Elena Verna：我们非常关注这一点，可爱，有一种感觉，“天哪，我现在拥有超能力，我迫不及待地想告诉别人。

I cannot wait to show others what is happening." So on both of those sides, to me, that is very much organic.

我迫不及待地想向其他人展示正在发生的事情。”因此，对我来说，这两方面都是非常有机的。

If you aren't a consumer, then Instagram, TikTok are very much a go as well.

如果你不是消费者，那么 Instagram、TikTok 也是一个不错的选择。

Lenny Rachitsky: The CEO clearly is an important variable in this, them.

Lenny Rachitsky：首席执行官显然是其中的一个重要变量。

In this case, Anton just tweeting, "Here's what's going on Lovable.

在这种情况下，安东只是发推文说：“这就是发生的事情，可爱。

Here's how fast it's growing.

这是它的增长速度。

He's something we've learned."

他是我们学到的东西。”

Lenny Rachitsky: We had the CEO of Gamma on recently, granted, and he's exactly the same thing.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们最近邀请了 Gamma 的首席执行官，当然，他也是同样的人。

Just sharing a bunch of lessons, journey building in public, a big part of the growth lever.

只是分享一些经验教训，在公共场合建立旅程，这是增长杠杆的重要组成部分。

And your point here is okay, so it's the CEO.

你的观点是好的，所以是首席执行官。

But then it's also how do you get your customers to share things on socials?

但如何让客户在社交媒体上分享内容呢？

And then there's a paid influencer component.

然后还有付费影响者部分。

Elena Verna: Yes, the customer is difficult one.

Elena Verna：是的，客户是个很难相处的人。

That's a word of mouth loop that you need to stand up.

这是一个你需要站起来的口碑循环。

The only way to create a word of mouth loop is just to blow their socks off when they actually experience your product.

创建口碑循环的唯一方法就是当他们真正体验你的产品时让他们大吃一惊。

We have a almost unfair advantage, because our product is called Lovable.

我们拥有几乎不公平的优势，因为我们的产品叫做Lovable。

So by default, we're trying to create absolute lovable experiences.

因此，默认情况下，我们正在努力创造绝对可爱的体验。

That is a mentality internally.

这是一种内心的心态。

If it's not lovable, we're not going to ship it.

如果它不可爱，我们就不会发货。

And the best way to fix a bug at Lovable is to say, "This is not lovable," and everybody just jumps on it to fix it right there and then.

在 Lovable 中修复 bug 的最好方法就是说，“这不可爱”，然后每个人都会立刻跳起来修复它。

Sprints, no sprints, it doesn't matter, it's getting fixed right now.

冲刺，没有冲刺，没关系，它现在正在修复。

Elena Verna: So from that perspective, we have that culture already embedded as part of our brand and it's part of our name which helps us a lot.

Elena Verna：所以从这个角度来看，我们已经将这种文化作为我们品牌的一部分，它也是我们名字的一部分，这对我们有很大帮助。

But the point is that you feel that brand through every interaction.

但关键是你通过每一次互动都能感受到这个品牌。

I talk to my designer all the time, how can we add more love marks into the product?

我一直在和我的设计师讨论，如何才能在产品中添加更多的爱的印记？

How can we prioritize more unique interactions?

我们如何优先考虑更独特的互动？

The little elements that make up that feeling of this product is speaking to me.

构成这个产品感觉的小元素正在对我说话。

It's like, "It feels something that is unique." It has personality behind it.

就像，“感觉很独特。”它背后有个性。

Elena Verna: So we put all of the brand work actually into our product.

Elena Verna：所以我们将所有的品牌工作实际上都投入到了我们的产品中。

When you think about Lovable, people think about a brand, but we don't have a brand marketing team yet.

当你想到 Lovable 时，人们会想到一个品牌，但我们还没有品牌营销团队。

So it's all just through product interactions, and some of those building and public moments of the people behind those product interactions that is our strategy.

因此，这一切都只是通过产品交互，以及这些产品交互背后的人们的一些构建和公共时刻，这就是我们的策略。

Elena Verna: And then there's influencer marketing.

Elena Verna：还有影响力营销。

Interestingly enough, influencer marketing is 10 times bigger for us than paid social.

有趣的是，对我们来说，网红营销的规模是付费社交的 10 倍。

So yeah, we do some paid social as well, and it's working decently.

所以，是的，我们也做了一些付费社交活动，而且效果不错。

It's quite expensive from payback period, we're still optimizing it.

从投资回收期来看，它相当昂贵，我们仍在优化它。

As I said, we're pretty early on in all of these channels.

正如我所说，我们在所有这些渠道上都处于起步阶段。

But influencer marketing is something that has worked from the beginning at Lovable.

但影响者营销从 Lovable 成立之初就发挥了作用。

And a reason behind it is that influencer marketing, especially on the socials, it gives you an opportunity to have a little video and interaction.

其背后的原因是影响者营销，尤其是在社交媒体上，它为您提供了进行一些视频和互动的机会。

And Lovable is all about seeing like, "Oh my gosh, this is what I can do, and this is possible." So that drives people to go and try it themselves.

可爱就是看到这样的感觉：“天哪，这就是我能做的，而且这是可能的。”这促使人们自己去尝试。

Elena Verna: So that's why social works very well for us, because it's not really a written value proposition.

Elena Verna：这就是为什么社交对我们来说非常有效，因为它并不是真正的书面价值主张。

Nobody knows what vibe coding is.

没有人知道什么是振动编码。

But you watch 10 seconds of it and you go, "Whew, that's new.

但你看了 10 秒，你就会说：“哇，这是新的。

Let me go give it a try."

让我去试试吧。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Who would've thought that a head of growth, who is traditionally seen as data, metrics, spreadsheets, drive KPIs is like, "Okay, how do we make this more lovable?

Lenny Rachitsky：谁会想到传统上被视为数据、指标、电子表格、驱动 KPI 的增长主管会说，“好吧，我们如何让它变得更可爱？

How do we add more moments of delight?"

我们如何添加更多欢乐时刻？”

Elena Verna: I know.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：我知道。

My joke is at the end of my Lovable journey whenever...

我的笑话是在我可爱的旅程结束时每当......

Hopefully it never comes to an end.

希望它永远不会结束。

But at the end I'll be a growth brand person.

但最终我将成为一个成长型品牌人。

Hi, my name is Elena, I do brand now.

嗨，我叫埃琳娜，我现在做品牌。

But I actually see it as part of growth strategy to make sure that that brand shines through every single interaction.

但我实际上将其视为增长战略的一部分，以确保该品牌在每一次互动中脱颖而出。

And I always talk to my team about it, because that is one big lever in our growth story.

我总是和我的团队讨论这个问题，因为这是我们成长故事中的一个重要杠杆。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, so I think that's a really important point to highlight.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，所以我认为这是需要强调的非常重要的一点。

The reason Lovable is growing so fast is it is a product people love.

Lovable 增长如此之快的原因是它是人们喜爱的产品。

You've made something people want.

你已经做出了人们想要的东西。

And the word of mouth spreads, because it's something that blows people's socks off as you said.

口碑会传播开来，因为正如你所说，这会让人们大吃一惊。

So it feels like that's the first thing you got to get right.

所以感觉这是你要做的第一件事。

Elena Verna: Yes.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

Well, the first thing you have to get right is you have to be at the right place at the right time and you have to be in fast moving waters.

嗯，你要做的第一件事就是你必须在正确的时间出现在正确的地点，并且你必须处于快速流动的水域中。

Let's not discount how fast this category is exploding on its own.

我们不要低估这个类别本身爆炸的速度。

So this cannot happen in every single category that you're starting to build a product.

因此，这种情况不可能发生在您开始构建产品的每个类别中。

But the way to stand out in the super crowded category is to create experiences that speak to people.

但在超级拥挤的类别中脱颖而出的方法是创造与人们交流的体验。

Elena Verna: That I think is something that a lot of people deprioritize, because they still prioritize functionality over humanity within software.

Elena Verna：我认为这是很多人不重视的事情，因为他们仍然优先考虑软件中的功能而不是人性。

And I think that we're actually moving to the new era of software that needs to feel human, that people want to interact with, not just utility of it.

我认为我们实际上正在进入软件的新时代，软件需要人性化，人们想要与之交互，而不仅仅是它的实用性。

Because cost of software is coming down so much to develop that we now can actually invest into emotional feel of that software, as opposed to only just focus on creating the utility out of it.

由于软件的开发成本大幅下降，我们现在可以真正投资于该软件的情感感受，而不是仅仅专注于从中创建实用程序。

Elena Verna: So to me, it's a...

Elena Verna：所以对我来说，这是......

I love this move, because I hate nothing more than going to software that is just so painful to use that I lose some brain cells as I'm interacting with it, versus software that I feel I get energy out of.

我喜欢这个举动，因为我最讨厌的就是使用那些使用起来非常痛苦的软件，以至于在与它交互时我会失去一些脑细胞，而不是那些我觉得可以从中获取能量的软件。

And for Lovable for me, I cannot wait on some of the projects that I have to go and vibe code myself.

对于我来说，Lovable 是我迫不及待的一些项目，我必须亲自去编写代码。

That's the highlight of my day.

这是我这一天的亮点。

I bring in my daughter and I'm like, "Let's go do this." Like, "What do you think that needs to be done?" Because I just get so much energy out of doing it.

我把我的女儿带进来，然后我说：“我们开始吧。”比如，“你认为需要做什么？”因为我从做这件事中获得了很多能量。

And that is the feeling you cannot create by looking at it as a utility problem.

这就是你无法通过将其视为效用问题来创造的感觉。

Lenny Rachitsky: The way I think about it, the way what you're describing is it's almost table stakes have increased, and now it's so easy to build.

Lenny Rachitsky：我的想法是，你所描述的方式是它的赌注几乎增加了，现在它很容易构建。

Now the big differentiator is experience, design, delight.

现在最大的区别在于体验、设计和乐趣。

Elena Verna: Exactly, and it has to translate through every single interaction.

Elena Verna：没错，它必须通过每一次互动来体现。

So your designer has to be one of your first hires now in startups.

所以你的设计师必须是你在初创公司中的第一批员工之一。

It's not just about the engineering, so to speak, utility.

这不仅仅是工程方面的问题，可以说是实用性方面的问题。

And you have to think through every single interaction of, does this communicate our brand or not?

你必须仔细考虑每一次互动，这是否传达了我们的品牌？

Lenny Rachitsky: So along those lines, I want to come back to something you talked about, which is launching new features as a huge growth lever.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以沿着这些思路，我想回到你谈到的事情，即推出新功能作为一个巨大的增长杠杆。

The big question there is just how do you maintain quality and cohesiveness as all these people are empowered to ship stuff?

最大的问题是，当所有这些人都有权交付东西时，如何保持质量和凝聚力？

Is there anything else there you've seen that works well to help avoid just the Frankenstein product that's endless features that you want to tweet about?

您是否还见过其他任何东西可以很好地帮助避免您想要在推特上谈论的弗兰肯斯坦产品的无穷无尽的功能？

Elena Verna: Yeah.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

One part of it is not something that you can codify, but it's the type of people that you hire that are going to go and ship these things.

其中一部分不是你可以编纂的东西，而是你雇佣的将要运送这些东西的人的类型。

We at Lovable try to hire the absolute best talent available out there that we can bring in, and that we can source and that we can attract to grow with.

在 Lovable，我们试图聘请最优秀的人才，我们可以引进这些人才，我们可以寻找这些人才，我们可以吸引他们一起成长。

And what do I mean by that best talent?

我所说的最优秀的人才是什么意思？

It's not that somebody who has been at really large companies, or somebody that has really done a lot of logos or has big success stories behind them.

这并不是一个在真正的大公司工作过的人，也不是一个真正做过很多标志或背后有巨大成功故事的人。

It's somebody who is extremely passionate about their job.

这是一个对自己的工作充满热情的人。

Elena Verna: It's their hobby.

Elena Verna：这是他们的爱好。

They love to work.

他们热爱工作。

They have fire in their belly.

他们的肚子里有火。

This is not a paycheck for them, they want to do this for some ulterior reason.

这不是他们的薪水，他们这样做是出于某些不可告人的原因。

This is the biggest opportunity of their life, so this is global maximum against any other opportunities that are in front of them at the moment.

这是他们一生中最大的机会，因此与目前摆在他们面前的任何其他机会相比，这是全球最大的机会。

So that's very important for us.

所以这对我们来说非常重要。

Elena Verna: We want people to come and do their absolute best work at Lovable.

Elena Verna：我们希望人们来到 Lovable 并尽最大努力工作。

It's very important, and you can feel it in this office.

这非常重要，你可以在这个办公室感受到它。

People are wired up.

人们已经连线了。

They are so high on how can we make this better?

他们对我们如何才能做得更好如此高度重视？

How can we deliver more to our customers?

我们如何才能为客户提供更多服务？

And that's very different compared to usually how companies grow where like, "Okay, yeah, the check, check, check.

这与通常公司的成长方式非常不同，比如“好吧，是的，检查，检查，检查。

They fit the skillset, let's bring them in." But is that passion, is that fire behind it?

他们符合技能，让我们把他们带进来。”但这是激情吗？背后是火焰吗？

Elena Verna: And then the second piece is that we work really hard on just addressing what's the success here looks like?

Elena Verna：第二个问题是我们非常努力地解决这里的成功是什么样的？

What is it that we're building?

我们正在构建什么？

What use cases are we building for?

我们正在构建什么用例？

And then because we hire these people that are so passionate about it, the other two skills, by the way, that are super important is high agency and high autonomy.

然后，因为我们雇用了这些对此充满热情的人，顺便说一句，另外两项非常重要的技能是高代理性和高自主性。

I can figure out things that are tangential to me that I don't need other specialties, so to speak.

可以这么说，我可以弄清楚与我无关的事情，我不需要其他专业。

I don't need a marketer to go launch something, I can go figure it out.

我不需要营销人员来发布某些东西，我可以自己搞清楚。

And I have high agency, I can go do it myself.

而且我有很高的代理权，我可以自己去做。

I'm going to own it all the way from start to finish.

我将从始至终都拥有它。

Those are very important, something that we screen for and something that we look for in our culture.

这些非常重要，是我们筛选的东西，也是我们在文化中寻找的东西。

Elena Verna: And then you just see...

埃琳娜·维尔娜：然后你就会看到......

What you want to do is up to you.

你想做什么取决于你。

So there's very little supervision that happens on the ground.

因此，现场的监督非常少。

Now, we all have goals and some of the big launches that we're all marching towards, but some of the work that is completely up to developers, up to marketers or whatever, what is it that they want to do?

现在，我们都有目标和一些我们正在努力的重大发布，但有些工作完全取决于开发人员、营销人员或其他什么人，他们想要做什么？

So there has to be that enablement of go try things.

所以必须有去尝试的能力。

And because of our velocity, if you fail, it's not a big deal.

由于我们的速度，如果你失败了，也没什么大不了的。

We'll just pivot, we will get through it.

我们只要调整方向，我们就会渡过难关。

We are not here to just win all the time.

我们来这里并不是为了一直获胜。

Lenny Rachitsky: On the hiring of these incredible people, as we all know, it's very hard to hire people these days, especially the best.

Lenny Rachitsky：关于雇用这些令人难以置信的人才，众所周知，现在很难雇用人员，尤其是最优秀的人。

What have you seen Lovable does differently or does well that helps them recruit the best?

您认为 Lovable 有哪些不同的做法或做得很好，可以帮助他们招募到最优秀的人才？

Elena Verna: Yes, and especially recruit in Stockholm.

Elena Verna：是的，尤其是在斯德哥尔摩招聘。

The main office here is in Stockholm.

这里的主办公室位于斯德哥尔摩。

We're asking a lot of people to relocate, which is no small feat.

我们要求很多人搬迁，这是一个不小的壮举。

Now some of it makes it easy, because of how much hype we created around our product.

现在，有些事情变得很容易，因为我们围绕我们的产品进行了大量的宣传。

People want to come work for us.

人们想来为我们工作。

They're reaching out to us.

他们正在向我们伸出援手。

They're saying, "I love what you're doing, I want to join it." So that we have a cheat code to it, because we have...

他们说：“我喜欢你所做的事情，我想加入其中。”所以我们有一个作弊代码，因为我们有......

Most of the time when we reach out to somebody, they say, "Yeah, I would love to explore." So building that product that is highly lovable also creates a really great recruiting brand for you as well.

大多数时候，当我们联系某人时，他们会说：“是的，我很想探索。”因此，打造一款非常可爱的产品也可以为您创造一个非常出色的招聘品牌。

So make sure that there's multiple benefits to that.

因此，请确保这样做有多种好处。

Elena Verna: But second of all, we do a lot of trials for people.

Elena Verna：但其次，我们为人们做了很多试验。

So trial work to see them in action.

因此，请尝试工作以查看它们的实际效果。

Elena Verna: A work trial to see them in action for a couple of days.

Elena Verna：为期几天的工作试用。

We pay them as part of the work trial.

我们向他们支付工资作为工作试用的一部分。

We have some probation periods that we start people on, because this company is not for everybody.

我们为员工设置了一些试用期，因为这家公司并不适合所有人。

As I said in the podcast in the beginning, the pace here is insane.

正如我在开头的播客中所说，这里的节奏太疯狂了。

I went on vacation for the first time.

我第一次去度假。

So I've been here for six months.

我已经在这里呆了六个月了。

I went on vacation for 10 days.

我去度假了 10 天。

I came back, I felt like I needed to onboard from the beginning.

我回来了，我觉得我需要从一开始就加入。

Everything changed.

一切都变了。

Elena Verna: And when I'm in it, I feel like it's an evolution.

Elena Verna：当我身处其中时，我觉得这是一种进化。

But the fact that just being gone for 10 days, it feels like a complete revolution in the company.

但事实上，仅仅离开十天，就感觉公司发生了一场彻底的革命。

That pace is just not for everybody, and that's okay.

这种节奏并不适合所有人，但这没关系。

Because I'm a very firm believer that there's different cultures and different environments that the best fit for different personalities and different people.

因为我坚信，不同的文化和不同的环境最适合不同的个性和不同的人。

Elena Verna: So we try to be very upfront with how things are and how chaotic they are, and we prioritize people that don't look for clarity.

Elena Verna：因此，我们尝试非常坦率地了解事情的真相以及它们的混乱程度，并且我们会优先考虑那些不寻求清晰性的人。

We can create clarity out of chaos because it is absolutely chaotic otherwise.

我们可以从混乱中创造清晰，因为否则它绝对是混乱的。

And if we start to look for people that can explain it to us, that's the only way that we can succeed.

如果我们开始寻找能够向我们解释的人，那就是我们成功的唯一途径。

Lenny Rachitsky: The way you described going on vacation and it feeling very different, it feels like when you don't see your kid for a few days and they're just completely different.

Lenny Rachitsky：你所描述的去度假的方式和感觉非常不同，感觉就像你几天没有见到你的孩子，他们完全不同了。

You're like, "How did you grow up so fast in three days?"

你会想：“你怎么三天内就长这么快了？”

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me try to summarize the growth levers that you're finding are working, and I'm trying to think about this from the perspective of an AI startup trying to think about, "Hey, shoot, how do we grow faster?

Lenny Rachitsky：让我尝试总结一下你们发现的正在发挥作用的增长杠杆，我试图从人工智能初创公司的角度来思考这个问题，“嘿，我们如何才能更快地增长？

What has Lovable figured out?" So it feels like number one is just build something lovable, something that blows people's socks off, but also in a market that is growing that people want to pay money for.

可爱发现了什么？”所以感觉第一就是打造一些可爱的东西，一些让人们大吃一惊的东西，而且是在一个人们愿意花钱购买的不断增长的市场中。

You can build something lovable that nobody actually cares about, that there isn't much money going to this space.

你可以建造一些可爱的东西，但没有人真正关心，没有太多资金投入这个领域。

There's no tide pushing it forward, and it won't work.

没有潮流推动它前进，它就不会起作用。

Elena Verna: I call it minimum lovable product.

Elena Verna：我称其为最可爱的产品。

It shouldn't be minimal viable product anymore.

它不应该再是最小可行产品。

Viability is left back in 2010s.

生存能力还剩 2010 年代。

Now it's minimal lovable product.

现在它是最小的可爱产品。

That's the only thing that matters.

这是唯一重要的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how these AI tools are letting us...

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这些人工智能工具如何让我们......

PMs have always had these smoke door test, or what's the term?

PM 总是进行这些烟门测试，或者术语是什么？

Or it's not a real product.

或者它不是真正的产品。

Paint the door.

给门涂漆。

Elena Verna: Paint the door.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：粉刷门。

Paint the door.

给门涂漆。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

And it's like, okay, we just have a landing page.

就像，好吧，我们只有一个登陆页面。

There's nothing there.

那里什么也没有。

And now AI makes it easier to do that, and it's more full-featured.

现在人工智能让这一切变得更容易，而且功能更全面。

Elena Verna: Yeah.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

Well, it's the feedback cycle.

嗯，这就是反馈周期。

It's just completely collapsed.

简直就是彻底崩溃了。

You can go from idea to some product that is functioning to user feedback within a day if you want to, depending on how fast that you want to run or how complex the product is.

如果您愿意，您可以在一天之内从想法变成一些可以运行的产品，再到用户反馈，具体取决于您想要运行的速度或产品的复杂程度。

For missions, it took us a couple of weeks to vibe code it to the point to where...

对于任务，我们花了几周的时间对其进行编码，直到……

I have a full-time vibe coder on my team.

我的团队中有一名全职氛围编码员。

He's amazing.

他太棒了。

So he wanted to create videos.

所以他想制作视频。

He did a bunch of designs for it too.

他也为此做了很多设计。

It took him a couple of weeks, we're testing it now and then we'll push it in the product.

他花了几周时间，我们现在正在测试它，然后我们会将其推入产品中。

But it's a completely different development lifecycle.

但这是完全不同的开发生命周期。

Elena Verna: Before, it would just take so many more steps from user research to the design sprints, to prioritizing an engineering roadmap, to build something minimal and viable to actually test to little long testing cycles.

Elena Verna：以前，从用户研究到设计冲刺，再到确定工程路线图的优先级，再到构建最小且可行的东西来实际测试到很长的测试周期，只需要采取更多步骤。

Now it's just like, "Boom, let's go." It could have taken us a day, we just decided to take a couple of weeks to get all of the video pieces correct.

现在就像，“繁荣，我们走吧。”我们本来可能需要一天的时间，但我们决定用几周的时间来使所有视频片段正确无误。

Lenny Rachitsky: I saw you launch this on LinkedIn.

Lenny Rachitsky：我看到你在 LinkedIn 上发布了这个。

To me, it looked like a full product launch.

对我来说，这看起来像是一次完整的产品发布。

It is interesting to hear this is just a prototype.

有趣的是，这只是一个原型。

Elena Verna: Yeah, it's minimum lovable product.

Elena Verna：是的，这是最可爱的产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: Minimum lovable product.

Lenny Rachitsky：最可爱的产品。

Okay, I got to ask you, you said you had a full-time vibe coder.

好吧，我得问你，你说你有一个全职的氛围编码员。

What the heck is this?

这到底是什么？

Is this an engineer?

这是工程师吗？

Is this something else?

这是别的什么吗？

What is a full-time vibe coder?

什么是全职氛围编码员？

Elena Verna: Great question.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：好问题。

This is a new job role that is actually popping up here and there.

这是一个新的工作角色，实际上到处都在出现。

It's absolutely fascinating to watch this development, because I see vibe coding as a skill being added to a lot of job descriptions.

观看这种发展绝对令人着迷，因为我认为振动编码是一种被添加到许多工作描述中的技能。

For designers, for product managers, for marketers, which I think is a really interesting shift.

对于设计师、产品经理、营销人员来说，我认为这是一个非常有趣的转变。

Finally, Excel can move over.

最后，Excel 可以移过去了。

We have a new skill to add that is super empowering and not-

我们要添加一项新技能，它是超级赋权而不是-

Elena Verna: ...

埃琳娜·维尔娜：……

it's super empowering and I'm not 30 years old, but vibe coder, so his name is Lazar and he actually was chief of staff in his previous role so he's not technical at all.

这是超级赋权的，我还不到 30 岁，但我是一名氛围程序员，所以他的名字叫拉扎尔，他实际上在之前的职位上担任过幕僚长，所以他根本不具备技术能力。

He's self-taught in technical aspects of it, but he was very early on in the vibe coding wave so he learned a lot about it.

他在技术方面是自学的，但他很早就进入了氛围编码浪潮，所以他学到了很多东西。

He was user of all of the vibe coding tools, Lovable included.

他是所有 Vivi 编码工具的用户，包括 Lovable。

Elena Verna: And when I was coming into the role, I'm like, "I have so many projects that I will vibe code myself," so I run this woman only hackathon, SheBuilds.

Elena Verna：当我担任这个角色时，我想，“我有很多项目，我会自己编写代码”，所以我举办了这个仅限女性的黑客马拉松，SheBuilds。

I vibe coded the first version of that site and submission process for applications, and then other people came in and started building on top of it.

我对该网站的第一个版本和应用程序的提交流程进行了编码，然后其他人进来并开始在此基础上进行构建。

But I vibe coded, but then I don't have enough time sometimes because I need to run around and I want to push out so many different initiatives that I want to test in the market with our own product.

但我感觉编码，但有时我没有足够的时间，因为我需要到处跑，我想推出很多不同的举措，我想用我们自己的产品在市场上进行测试。

So we connected on social and I'm like, "Would you join us?" And he joined us first part-time.

所以我们在社交媒体上建立了联系，我问，“你愿意加入我们吗？”他首先是兼职加入我们的。

I'm like, "You're bringing so much value."

我想，“你带来了如此多的价值。”

Elena Verna: For example, we partnered with Shopify, and he created a bunch of Shopify Lovable templates, vibe coded for us.

Elena Verna：例如，我们与 Shopify 合作，他创建了一堆 Shopify Lovable 模板，为我们编码了氛围。

And it's been so helpful to have somebody like that that is just pushing all of these things out.

有这样的人来推动所有这些事情是非常有帮助的。

And he's an absolute expert, so he's teaching us all too of what is possible with Lovable because he's on the cutting edge of constantly pushing it to the limit.

他是一位绝对的专家，所以他也在教我们所有人《Lovable》的可能性，因为他处于不断将其推向极限的最前沿。

I really enjoy having that role, which I've never had before in my life and in my team.

我真的很喜欢担任这个角色，这是我在我的生活和团队中从未有过的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm not surprised.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我并不感到惊讶。

I've never heard of this role before as a real full-time job.

我以前从未听说过这个角色是真正的全职工作。

Do you think this is a thing people will start hiring for at non-vibe coding companies?

您认为人们会开始在非 vibe 编码公司招聘员工吗？

Elena Verna: I vibe code myself so I would put that as even as a skill on my resume now.

Elena Verna：我自己也喜欢编码，所以我现在会把它作为一项技能写在我的简历上。

It took me a while to figure out, by the way, everybody's like, "Oh, you just go in and it all happens automatically."

顺便说一句，我花了一段时间才弄清楚，每个人都会说，“哦，你只要进去，一切就会自动发生。”

Elena Verna: It takes you a couple of iterations, couple of projects until you know, okay, this is how I need to translate it, how I need to think about it.

Elena Verna：这需要你进行几次迭代，几个项目，直到你知道，好吧，这就是我需要如何翻译它，我需​​要如何思考它。

But for me, it's when I started scaling of what I want to vibe code, that's where his value really came in because I'm like, "Okay, I understand what is possible.

但对我来说，当我开始扩展我想要的代码时，他的价值就真正发挥了作用，因为我想，“好吧，我明白什么是可能的。

I know what needs to be achieved." And some of these apps, I want to be almost full-blown built because they're not going to get incorporated into the product anytime soon.

我知道需要实现什么目标。”其中一些应用程序，我希望几乎完全成熟，因为它们不会很快被整合到产品中。

They don't need to be.

他们不需要这样。

I'll just link to them from our header, so to speak.

可以这么说，我只是从我们的标题中链接到它们。

And he really accelerated that velocity for me.

他确实为我加速了这个速度。

Elena Verna: So once you get into vibe coding and you see its value within your organization, leaning into somebody like that, just accelerates your velocity because it is like an engineer on your team.

Elena Verna：因此，一旦您进入氛围编码并看到它在组织中的价值，向这样的人倾斜，只会加快您的速度，因为它就像您团队中的工程师一样。

It's just they're not, to me, he's part technical, but they can be non-technical if they're really good.

只是对我来说，他们不是技术性的，但如果他们真的很优秀，他们也可以是非技术性的。

That is fascinating.: This episode is brought to you by Persona, the verified identity platform, helping organizations onboard users, fight fraud, and build trust.

这太有趣了。：本集由经过验证的身份平台 Persona 为您带来，帮助组织吸引用户、打击欺诈并建立信任。

We talk a lot on this podcast about the amazing advances in AI, but this can be a double-edged sword.

我们在这个播客上谈论了很多关于人工智能的惊人进步，但这可能是一把双刃剑。

For every wow moment, there are fraudsters using the same tech to wreak havoc, laundering money, taking over employee identities and impersonating businesses.

在每一个令人惊叹的时刻，都有欺诈者使用相同的技术造成严重破坏，洗钱，接管员工身份并冒充企业。

Persona helps combat these threats with automated user, business, and employee verification.

Persona 通过自动化的用户、业务和员工验证来帮助应对这些威胁。

Whether you're looking to catch candidate fraud, meet age restrictions, or keep your platform safe, Persona helps you verify users in a way that's tailored to your specific needs.

无论您是想发现候选人欺诈、满足年龄限制还是保证平台安全，Persona 都可以帮助您根据您的特定需求定制方式验证用户。

Best of all, Persona makes it easy to know who you're dealing with without adding friction for good users.

最重要的是，Persona 可以让您轻松了解正在与谁打交道，而不会给优秀用户带来麻烦。

This is why leading platforms like Etsy, LinkedIn, Square, and Lyft trust Persona to secure their platform.

这就是为什么 Etsy、LinkedIn、Square 和 Lyft 等领先平台信任 Persona 来保护其平台的安全。

Persona is also offering my listeners 500 free services per month for one full year.

Persona 还为我的听众提供一整年每月 500 项免费服务。

Just head to withpersona.com/lenny to get started.

只需前往 withpersona.com/lenny 即可开始。

That's with persona.com/lenny.

这是通过 persona.com/lenny 进行的。

Thanks again to Persona for sponsoring this episode.

再次感谢 Persona 赞助本期节目。

That is fascinating.: Let me go back to summarize just real quick the growth levers, I want to move in a somewhat different direction.

这太令人着迷了。：让我回去快速总结一下增长杠杆，我想朝着不同的方向前进。

Things that help Lovable grow.

帮助可爱成长的事情。

One is just build something that blows your socks off, as you said.

正如你所说，一是构建一些让你大吃一惊的东西。

I love these phrases out here.

我喜欢这里的这些短语。

The second is make noise in the market.

二是在市场上制造噪音。

And the way that Lovable does this, the CEO's tweeting constantly.

Lovable 的做法是，首席执行官不断发推文。

You build something that blows people's socks off so that they share things on socials themselves, plus this influencer marketing component, and just this idea of building in public has been really helpful.

你构建了一些让人们大吃一惊的东西，以便他们自己在社交媒体上分享内容，再加上这个有影响力的营销组件，而这种在公共场合构建的想法确实很有帮助。

This point about activation being embedded within the product team of the AI agent essentially, so it's essentially not the growth team thinking about activation.

关于激活的这一点本质上是嵌入到人工智能代理的产品团队中的，因此本质上不是增长团队在考虑激活。

It's the product team that is building the AI magic that is obsessed with activation.

正是产品团队正在构建痴迷于激活的 AI 魔法。

It feels like those are the main growth levers.

感觉这些是主要的增长杠杆。

Is there anything else that I missed?

还有什么我错过的吗？

Elena Verna: Community.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：社区。

I think community is really important here because you need to bring people together as they're exploring these capabilities and as they're seeing what's possible so they can bounce off each other and they can help each other out.

我认为社区在这里非常重要，因为你需要将人们聚集在一起，因为他们正在探索这些功能并看到什么是可能的，这样他们就可以互相激发并互相帮助。

I would say community also amplifies that word of mouth.

我想说社区也放大了口碑。

It amplifies all of the social posting.

它放大了所有的社交帖子。

It amplifies retention mechanisms for you as well.

它还为您增强了保留机制。

The community has been a huge part of Lovable's success as well, and that's something that was started very early on.

社区也是 Lovable 成功的重要组成部分，而且这是很早就开始的事情。

Elena Verna: It runs on Discord, so it's nothing fancy.

Elena Verna：它在 Discord 上运行，所以没什么花哨的。

It's not like we build anything completely from scratch for ourselves.

我们并不是完全从头开始为自己构建任何东西。

And it has hundreds of thousands of members and it's very lively.

而且它有几十万会员，非常热闹。

We have community managers that are making sure that all of the questions get answered and the right groups are being created.

我们有社区经理确保所有问题得到解答并创建正确的群组。

We have incredible ambassador program now as well of people doing it.

我们现在有令人难以置信的大使计划以及这样做的人。

I would say community here, again, of really making software more human is very important role.

我想再次强调，社区在真正让软件变得更加人性化方面发挥着非常重要的作用。

Now, obviously not everybody can build a community, but maybe at least plugging in into somebody's community is quite important as well.

现在，显然不是每个人都可以建立社区，但也许至少加入某人的社区也非常重要。

And then there's another one, unless you have a question on community.

然后还有另一个，除非您对社区有疑问。

Elena Verna: Another one is giving your product away a lot.

Elena Verna：另一个原因是你的产品经常被赠送。

And for AI products, it may feel counterintuitive because they're so costly.

对于人工智能产品来说，这可能会让人感觉违反直觉，因为它们的成本太高了。

Every single interaction with an AI product costs companies something.

与人工智能产品的每一次互动都会让公司付出一定的代价。

There's an LLM pass-through cost that is coming through.

法学硕士转嫁费用正在发生。

And a lot of, especially traditional tech companies I see are gating AI immediately behind the paywall because they're sitting on a really cush, high margin profile, and the moment that you start giving AI away for free, you're cutting into those margins like a knife through the butter.

我看到很多公司，尤其是传统科技公司，都立即将人工智能置于付费墙后面，因为它们坐拥真正的利润、高利润率，而当你开始免费提供人工智能的那一刻，你就像刀切黄油一样削减了这些利润。

Now, at the same time, AI being so new and the capabilities being so new, you have to remove the barrier of entry.

与此同时，人工智能是如此新，其功能也如此新，你必须消除进入壁垒。

You have to give a lot of your product away for free.

你必须免费赠送很多产品。

But by the way, I don't just mean freemium.

但顺便说一句，我指的不仅仅是免费增值。

Freemium to me is just a baseline.

免费增值对我来说只是一个基线。

If you're in the new category, you need to let people explore what it is free and get that initial wow moment.

如果你属于新类别，你需要让人们探索它是免费的，并获得最初的惊叹时刻。

Elena Verna: It's not aha moment, by the way.

Elena Verna：顺便说一句，这不是顿悟时刻。

It doesn't need to be aha moment anymore.

现在不再需要是顿悟时刻了。

It just needs to be a wow moment.

这只是一个令人惊叹的时刻。

And for Lovable, it's that first preview generation after your first prompt, even though it's absolutely not going to be complete thing of what you want to build, but you just go, "This is possible?

对于 Lovable 来说，这是您第一次提示后的第一个预览生成，尽管它绝对不会是您想要构建的完整内容，但您只需说：“这可能吗？

I had no idea.

我不知道。

I want to keep building." And it becomes an addictive exercise.

我想继续建设。”它变成了一种令人上瘾的练习。

Elena Verna: But we also give so many of our Lovable credits away to every event, to every hackathon.

Elena Verna：但是我们也为每场活动、每场黑客马拉松提供了很多可爱的积分。

If you want to host a Lovable hackathon, we will sponsor it and give all of the participants credits away for free.

如果您想举办 Lovable 黑客马拉松，我们将赞助它并免费赠送所有参与者积分。

We give them away as candy and we basically track them over our LLM costs on freemium and giveaways as our marketing costs, and it doesn't go into our something we need to reduce to make our margins better.

我们将它们作为糖果赠送，我们基本上通过免费增值和赠品的法学硕士成本来跟踪它们作为我们的营销成本，并且它不会进入我们需要减少以提高利润率的东西。

It goes into, this is something that we need to spend more in because this is part of our growth secret sauce.

这是我们需要投入更多资金的事情，因为这是我们增长秘诀的一部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I want to hear more about the growth secret sauce.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我想听听更多有关增长秘方的信息。

That is extremely interesting.

这非常有趣。

I haven't heard of that as a strategy, and I can see why this makes sense.

我还没有听说过这是一种策略，但我明白为什么这是有道理的。

If the strategy is blow people's socks off so they can tell their friends, post on all socials, the trick is get more people to try it.

如果策略是让人们大吃一惊，这样他们就可以告诉他们的朋友，在所有社交媒体上发帖，那么关键就是让更多的人尝试。

And it's such a new, crazy thing.

这是一件新奇、疯狂的事情。

Why would I pay money?

我为什么要付钱？

Why would I even go take the effort to try sign up for an account?

为什么我还要花功夫尝试注册一个帐户？

I don't know what this is.

我不知道这是什么。

I don't know what I'm doing with it.

我不知道我在用它做什么。

So I could see how this loop goes faster and faster by giving it away.

所以我可以通过放弃它来了解这个循环是如何变得越来越快的。

Elena Verna: Exactly.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：没错。

And again, this is very uncomfortable sometimes for companies that A, either used to really...

再说一次，对于 A 曾经真正……的公司来说，有时这会非常不舒服。

AI companies have lower profile of margins.

人工智能公司的利润率较低。

That's absolutely true.

这绝对是真的。

To find an AI company with 80%, 90% margin profile is absolutely impossible, let's be real.

要找到一家利润率达到 80%、90% 的人工智能公司是绝对不可能的，让我们面对现实吧。

We're all sitting somewhere in a 40% or so, which is a lot smaller.

我们都坐在 40% 左右的某个地方，这个比例要小得多。

So any time that you look at those AI costs as your cost center, that's when you're in trouble.

因此，任何时候你将这些人工智能成本视为你的成本中心，那就是你遇到麻烦的时候。

You fundamentally have to flip the script and say, "I need to expose to people of what is possible and I need to remove the monetization friction out of it." Because if you don't, nobody's ever going to try it, or you're going to be very easily overtaken by a competitor that will give it away.

从根本上来说，你必须翻转脚本并说：“我需要向人们展示什么是可能的，并且我需要消除其中的货币化摩擦。”因为如果你不这样做，就没有人会尝试它，或者你会很容易被放弃它的竞争对手超越。

And let's face it, once you hook people, they're more likely going to stay with you.

让我们面对现实吧，一旦你吸引了人们，他们就更有可能留在你身边。

So you obviously have to still work on the retention strategy there.

因此，您显然仍然需要制定保留策略。

Elena Verna: But if you can have, like for our case, if somebody, one of our users stands up and say, "Hey, I'm going to have a hackathon at my work on Lovable.

Elena Verna：但是，就像我们的例子一样，如果有人，我们的一位用户站起来说：“嘿，我将在 Lovable 上的工作中举办一场黑客马拉松。

Can you give us all some free credits to play with?" Why would we prevent a person who wants to do all of the marketing and activating job for us in their company from using us?

你能给我们一些免费的积分来玩吗？”为什么我们要阻止一个想在他们的公司为我们做所有营销和激活工作的人使用我们？

Elena Verna: Of course, we're like, "Take it.

Elena Verna：当然，我们会说，“接受它。

How much do you need?

你需要多少？

How much would you like?

你想要多少钱？

We will sponsor it all.

我们将赞助这一切。

We will give you anything that you need." So we're really leaning into people that are wanting to show this magic to those around you and empowering them as much as possible.

我们会给你任何你需要的东西。”因此，我们确实倾向于那些想要向周围的人展示这种魔力并尽可能赋予他们权力的人。

And that is something that is actually applies to every single product.

这实际上适用于每一个产品。

And I agree, this is not a growth strategy that I've ever applied in my life on giving product away as much as possible, but it is something that is more and more becoming something that I see that is absolutely non-negotiable.

我同意，这不是我在生活中应用过的增长策略，即尽可能多地赠送产品，但它越来越成为我认为绝对不可谈判的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I'm feeling is the more mind-blowing it is, the more you should give it away for free.

Lenny Rachitsky：我的感觉是，它越令人兴奋，你就越应该免费赠送它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Especially in a competitive market where everyone is...

Lenny Rachitsky：尤其是在竞争激烈的市场中，每个人都......

It's hard.

这很难。

There's so many companies trying to do this thing, and so it's almost like the better you are, the more you should give it away.

有很多公司试图做这件事，所以几乎就像你越好，你就越应该放弃它。

Lenny Rachitsky: And this also explains why so much VC money has to be raised for these sorts of companies because this is not cheap.

Lenny Rachitsky：这也解释了为什么必须为这类公司筹集如此多的风险投资资金，因为这并不便宜。

Like you said, you're paying all these foundational models a lot of money.

正如您所说，您为所有这些基础模型支付了很多钱。

Elena Verna: Yes and no. I'm only going to say no is because, so take a look at Lovable, we're over 200 million in ARR.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的，也不是。我只想说不，因为看看 Lovable，我们的 ARR 超过 2 亿。

At this point, we're 100 people large so our headcount costs are very low.

目前，我们有 100 名员工，因此我们的员工成本非常低。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wait, let me just make sure people hear that.

Lenny Rachitsky：等等，让我确保人们听到这个。

200 million ARR, I didn't realize 100 people work at Lovable.

2亿ARR，我没有意识到Lovable有100人工作。

Elena Verna: Yes.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

And six months ago, we had 30 people working at Lovable so we triple.

六个月前，我们有 30 名员工在 Lovable 工作，所以人数增加了两倍。

So for us, it's a really big deal.

所以对我们来说，这确实是一件大事。

We tripled our company size.

我们的公司规模扩大了两倍。

Elena Verna: We're going to quadruple it by the end of, yeah, I know.

Elena Verna：是的，我知道，到年底我们将把它增加四倍。

We're big boy and girls now.

我们现在是大男孩和女孩了。

But for perspective of the headcount costs, it's minimal.

但从人员成本的角度来看，这是微乎其微的。

We have very little in that going on.

我们在这方面的进展很少。

We are not spending a lot on paid marketing so we're not a big paid marketing driver.

我们没有在付费营销上花费太多，所以我们不是付费营销的主要推动者。

Yeah, we're spending on influencer marketing, but it's not majority of our growth.

是的，我们在影响者营销上投入了资金，但这并不是我们增长的大部分。

It's low double digits to be fair because it's not why we're successful.

公平地说，这个数字很低，因为这不是我们成功的原因。

It's amplifying our success and it's helping us reach new audiences.

它扩大了我们的成功，并帮助我们吸引新的受众。

We don't have really large sales team, we have only a couple sales folks, and they're just starting to ramp up their enterprise efforts so we don't have really big enterprise demand gen costs as well.

我们没有真正庞大的销售团队，我们只有几个销售人员，他们刚刚开始加大他们的企业努力，所以我们也没有真正大的企业需求生成成本。

Elena Verna: From that perspective, if you look at the equation and you say, "Well, okay, if you're not going to do a lot of paid marketing, if you're not going to do a lot of sales, because we're really only working on hand raisers of people that are saying right now that they want to buy Lovable, then whereas you don't have big costs, so you can spend it on product."

Elena Verna：从这个角度来看，如果你看看这个等式，然后说：“好吧，如果你不打算进行大量付费营销，如果你不打算进行大量销售，因为我们实际上只针对那些现在说想购买 Lovable 的举手者，那么尽管你没有很大的成本，所以你可以把它花在产品上。”

Elena Verna: That is the beautiful part because when we are giving our product away to our customers, we're not competing with other companies in that space, because they're just going to use Lovable in their hackathon.

Elena Verna：这是最美妙的部分，因为当我们将产品赠送给客户时，我们不会与该领域的其他公司竞争，因为他们只是在黑客马拉松中使用 Lovable。

We're on their own, and we're not competing on AdWords or in paid Google where everybody's buying real estate for eyeballs.

我们是靠自己的力量，我们不会在 AdWords 或付费 Google 上进行竞争，因为在这些领域，每个人都在为吸引眼球而购买房地产。

From that perspective, I think about it more as a shift of where we spend in costs.

从这个角度来看，我更多地将其视为我们成本支出的转变。

And honestly, it's more efficient way to do paid marketing almost in a sense because of the cost per eyeball that we get there is quite a bit lower compared to if we were trying to compete it on Google.

老实说，从某种意义上说，这是一种更有效的付费营销方式，因为与我们在谷歌上竞争相比，我们获得的每个眼球的成本要低得多。

So yes and no to your statement because it actually does not deteriorate margin profile.

因此，对你的陈述是是是非，因为它实际上不会恶化保证金状况。

We're just shifting of where we're spending it.

我们只是改变了花钱的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is an incredibly important point you're making there.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是您提出的非常重要的一点。

It's not like you're generating an incredible amount of revenue, so there is money available to spend.

这并不是说你创造了令人难以置信的收入，所以有钱可以花。

And what you're saying is because it's been spreading through word of mouth mostly, you're not spending tons of money on salespeople, you're not spending tons of money on paid ads.

你所说的是因为它主要是通过口碑传播的，你没有在销售人员上花费大量的钱，你没有在付费广告上花费大量的钱。

This is just an amazing way to get more people to use it, so it's like a marketing cost.

这是让更多人使用它的奇妙方式，所以这就像营销成本。

Elena Verna: To the max, supercharged.

Elena Verna：全力以赴，增压。

Yes, because you're literally using your product to drive that awareness by giving it away to the agents in your ecosystem that will do that distribution for you.

是的，因为您实际上是在使用您的产品来提高这种意识，方法是将其赠送给生态系统中的代理，这些代理将为您进行分发。

Lenny Rachitsky: So fascinating.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太迷人了。

What a wild world we're living in.

我们生活在一个多么狂野的世界啊。

Free stuff for everyone.

为每个人提供免费的东西。

Elena Verna: Yes.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

I mean, it's great for consumers.

我的意思是，这对消费者来说很棒。

This is a great time to be a consumer.

这是成为消费者的好时机。

You have so many options.

你有很多选择。

Everybody's throwing themselves at you, giving your product away for free so it's great to be in the market right now.

每个人都向你倾尽全力，免费赠送你的产品，所以现在进入市场真是太好了。

I think the power should be with consumer always, but with software, power has not been with consumer previously because we were forced to use towards some solutions because of either how they were chosen for us or what was available in the market.

我认为权力应该始终属于消费者，但对于软件来说，权力以前并不属于消费者，因为我们被迫使用某些解决方案，因为它们是如何为我们选择的或市场上有什么。

And now that supply is almost infinite, the demand from the consumers can be very picky and the one that serves the best will win.

现在供应几乎是无限的，消费者的需求可能非常挑剔，服务最好的人将会获胜。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I think again, it's important to highlight.

Lenny Rachitsky：我再次认为，强调这一点很重要。

This is not some kind of VC subsidized bubble-ish sort of thing.

这不是什么风投资助的泡沫之类的事情。

There is a lot of money being generated that you are spending to help it grow faster.

您正在产生大量资金来帮助其更快增长。

It's not some kind of, we're just raising more money to give away more money.

这不是什么，我们只是筹集更多的钱来捐赠更多的钱。

You're actually making your own money.

其实你是在自己赚钱。

It's not driven by VC money.

它不是由风险投资资金驱动的。

Obviously, it helps.

显然，这有帮助。

Elena Verna: I can't comment on specific margin details for us, but at the same time, the money that we're raising on VC is for future development and hardening our business, not because we will not be able to survive without it.

Elena Verna：我无法对我们的具体利润细节发表评论，但与此同时，我们在风险投资上筹集的资金是为了未来的发展和加强我们的业务，而不是因为没有它我们将无法生存。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, great segue too.

好吧，segue 也很棒。

I want to talk about product-market fit in competition.

我想谈谈竞争中的产品与市场契合度。

You have this really interesting post that I don't think people grasp yet, which is that product-market fit is no longer this, we've done it.

你有这篇非常有趣的文章，我认为人们还没有理解，那就是产品与市场的契合不再是这样，我们已经做到了。

Product-market fit and we're up into the right.

产品与市场契合，我们正处于正确的位置。

Now we just grow, go, grow.

现在我们只是成长、前进、成长。

Now we hire salespeople, it's going to be great.

现在我们雇用销售人员，这会很棒。

You've written that just product-market fit is no longer this like you've done it and you're good.

您曾写道，产品与市场的契合度不再像您已经做到的那样并且做得很好。

It's this endless fight to keep it.

为了保持它，这是一场无休止的斗争。

Talk about what you're seeing there.

谈谈你在那里看到的事情。

Elena Verna: I'll first start with what I've felt at least before when people were talking about product-market fit, that yeah, obviously always product-market fit is an evolving thing, but the rate of that evolution was measured in years.

Elena Verna：我首先要从我之前在人们谈论产品与市场契合度时的感受开始，是的，产品与市场契合度显然总是一个不断演变的事物，但这种演变的速度是以年为单位来衡量的。

What is it that you need the next product-market fit step function change, which often was called second horizon or third horizon.

您需要下一个产品市场契合阶跃函数变化是什么，这通常被称为第二视野或第三视野。

Sometimes five, 10 years, sometimes even longer that you'd need, depending on how good and hard your initial product-market fit was, but you'd spend years scaling the original product-market fit.

有时您需要五年、十年，有时甚至更长，具体取决于您最初的产品市场契合度有多好和有多难，但您需要花费数年时间来扩展最初的产品市场契合度。

It was like blitz growth stage.

这就像闪电战的成长阶段。

Marketing, sales, growth was very important that you just try to get it to as many people as possible.

营销、销售、增长非常重要，你只需要把它带给尽可能多的人。

And then once you have saturation or the cost to getting to the marginal people becomes too high, you start thinking, "Okay, what else can I offer to help me reach additional people or sell more to existing users that I already have?"

然后，一旦你达到饱和状态，或者接触边缘人群的成本变得太高，你就会开始思考，“好吧，我还能提供什么来帮助我接触更多的人，或者向我已经拥有的现有用户销售更多产品？”

Elena Verna: And again, the main point here is it would take years to get to that stage where it became a question that you had to face really hard face-to-face.

Elena Verna：再说一次，这里的要点是，需要数年时间才能到达这个阶段，这成为一个你必须面对面面对的问题。

Now, it's three months, and all of a sudden you have to face that question again.

现在三个月过去了，突然之间你又要面对这个问题了。

And it's happening because of two things, in my opinion.

在我看来，这是由于两件事而发生的。

Number one, in AI technology of what LLM is capable of doing changes still very rapidly with new model release, with each new model release.

第一，在人工智能技术中，法学硕士能够随着新模型的发布、每个新模型的发布而迅速做出改变。

I think we'll stabilize at some point and then it's going to become more marginal, but we're not there yet.

我认为我们会在某个时候稳定下来，然后会变得更加边缘化，但我们还没有到那一步。

So every three months or so, every single AI LLM provider creates a step function change in what is possible with that LLM.

因此，每三个月左右，每个 AI LLM 提供商都会对该 LLM 的可能性进行阶跃功能更改。

And when you have this new possibility in just an underlying technology that opens up in front of you, then it creates another ceiling of what is possible to build on top of it.

当你在你面前开放的底层技术中拥有这种新的可能性时，它就会为在此基础上构建的可能性创造另一个上限。

Elena Verna: The tricky piece here is that it's not enough to just wait for that technology to get better and then start building on top.

Elena Verna：这里棘手的一点是，仅仅等待该技术变得更好，然后开始在此基础上构建是不够的。

You have to build beforehand to make a bet and then it's the LLM to catch up because when that model releases, you already need to have that functionality available.

你必须提前构建才能下注，然后 LLM 才能赶上，因为当该模型发布时，你已经需要拥有该功能。

That piece is, I've never been in a company where the fundamental capabilities are still changing so rapidly, and that's the product part.

那就是，我从来没有在一家公司的基本能力仍然变化如此之快，这就是产品部分。

The product can leap to the new expectations, but let's not talk about the market part as well.

产品能够跳跃到新的期望，但市场部分我们先不说。

Consumer expectations have never changed this fast before.

消费者的期望从未改变得如此之快。

What we expected ChatGPT to be able to do and answer and how we wanted it to talk to us eight months ago versus now is night and day and the deep thinking mode, and how deeply you can go into answering questions and what is capable of building on top of it.

我们期望 ChatGPT 能够做什么和回答，以及我们希望它在八个月前与我们交谈的方式与现在相比，是日夜和深度思考模式，以及您可以深入回答问题以及在此基础上能够构建什么。

Elena Verna: Consumer perception has never changed this fast too.

Elena Verna：消费者观念也从未改变得如此之快。

It's this unprecedented time of consumers all of a sudden in a month saying, "Oh, it's not doing this yet.

这是一个月内前所未有的消费者突然说：“哦，它还没有这样做。

I'm bouncing."

我在弹跳。”

Elena Verna: Before, again, consumer perceptions would be years to take.

Elena Verna：在此之前，消费者的看法需要花费数年的时间。

It's actually technology would sometimes be able to already address it, but consumer perception has not been changed yet so it would take a long time.

事实上，技术有时已经能够解决这个问题，但消费者的观念尚未改变，因此需要很长时间。

We're in this really weird part where both product and market is shifting so rapidly that every three months, I feel like we have to recapture our product-market fit and not just recapture on the same technology and with same customers.

我们正处于一个非常奇怪的阶段，产品和市场都在快速变化，以至于每三个月，我觉得我们必须重新获得我们的产品与市场的契合度，而不仅仅是重新获得相同的技术和相同的客户。

It's both of those pieces of the equation change every three months, and it's terrifying in a way.

等式的这两个部分每三个月就会改变一次，从某种程度上来说这是可怕的。

It's also very confusing in a way because we're $200 million company, and we're not solely focused on marketing and sales because we still have to recapture our product-market fit.

从某种程度上来说，这也非常令人困惑，因为我们是一家市值 2 亿美元的公司，我们不仅仅专注于营销和销售，因为我们仍然需要重新获得产品与市场的契合度。

Elena Verna: You know that the team that finds your product-market fit is very different than the team that usually scales your company, yet we have to find the team that is capable of doing both on ongoing basis.

Elena Verna：您知道，找到适合您的产品市场的团队与通常扩展您的公司的团队有很大不同，但我们必须找到能够持续完成这两件事的团队。

Now, I think every AI company is on this product-market fit treadmill.

现在，我认为每家人工智能公司都在这种适合产品市场的跑步机上。

Hopefully that treadmill speed slows down.

希望跑步机速度减慢。

If not, I think we're going to come up with crazy things of what this LLM and AI will be able to do if it's going to continue at this cusp, but it's a weird place to be in because every three months we have to throttle on our scaling efforts and just reinvent and then scale again.

如果没有，我认为如果法学硕士和人工智能继续处于这个风口浪尖，我们将会想出一些疯狂的事情，但这是一个奇怪的地方，因为每三个月我们就必须限制我们的扩展工作，重新发明，然后再次扩展。

But it's like short blitz of growth, not these long year long commitments.

但这就像短暂的闪电式增长，而不是这些长期的长期承诺。

Lenny Rachitsky: What makes this very real is just this week, apparently OpenAI had this whole code red moment where even though OpenAI by far the leading AI assistant over almost a billion, I think monthly active users, basically synonymous with AI around the world, with Gemini 3 launching, their market share just started to dip really quickly.

Lenny Rachitsky：这一切变得非常真实，就在本周，显然 OpenAI 经历了整个代码红色时刻，尽管 OpenAI 迄今为止是领先的人工智能助手，超过近 10 亿，但我认为，随着 Gemini 3 的推出，每月活跃用户基本上是世界各地人工智能的代名词，他们的市场份额开始迅速下降。

I think they lost six something percent in a week.

我认为他们在一周内损失了百分之六左右。

And so even OpenAI, ChatGPT, the original, the one that everyone uses constantly is in danger.

因此，即使是 OpenAI、ChatGPT 这个最初的、每个人都经常使用的也处于危险之中。

Elena Verna: It's like nobody's future is bulletproof yet.

Elena Verna：好像没有人的未来是刀枪不入的。

And 10 years ago, if you asked me if a $200 million company was at risk in losing product-market fit in the next three months if it's experiencing 10% month-over-month growth, I would've said, "You're crazy." And now that's the reality that we live in.

10 年前，如果你问我一家市值 2 亿美元的公司如果环比增长 10%，是否会面临在未来三个月内失去产品与市场契合度的风险，我会说，“你疯了。”现在这就是我们生活的现实。

And I don't know, it's fascinating to world in.

我不知道，这对世界来说很迷人。

What a time to be alive.

活着是多么美好的时光啊。

Lenny Rachitsky: Time to be alive and very stressful, but the prize at the end is massive.

Lenny Rachitsky：是时候活着了，压力很大，但最终的回报是巨大的。

That's why this is worth doing, not just monetarily, but just the impact it's going to have on the world, the way we people build and ship.

这就是为什么这是值得做的，不仅仅是在金钱上，而且是它对世界、我们人们建造和运输的方式产生的影响。

Elena Verna: Exactly.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：没错。

The ceiling of what is possible has been raised so massively that we haven't even became too closest to even see it, I believe.

我相信，可能性的上限已经如此之大，以至于我们甚至还没有距离看到它太近。

I think that that's the exciting part of it.

我认为这就是其中令人兴奋的部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: The way I've seen you write about this product-market fit challenge is the traditional approach is you have these core users that are using it happy with it, and then you expand to the adjacent users and expand to the next.

Lenny Rachitsky：我看到你写的关于产品市场契合度挑战的方式是传统的方法，你让这些核心用户对它感到满意，然后你扩展到相邻的用户并扩展到下一个。

You're basically just trying to recapture that same core constantly and don't even have time to go adjacent.

你基本上只是不断地尝试重新夺回同一个核心，甚至没有时间去邻近。

Elena Verna: Yeah.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

Bangaly wrote a really wonderful article.

Bangaly 写了一篇非常精彩的文章。

It was many years ago at this point on adjacent user theory in that your product-market fit expansion when you're in no growth stages, the biggest opportunity for you to go after is this what you call the adjacent user, which are just outside of your core user.

很多年前，在这一点上，相邻用户理论认为，当你处于非增长阶段时，你的产品市场适合扩张，你要追求的最大机会就是你所说的相邻用户，他们就在你的核心用户之外。

They have somewhat similar needs, but maybe they're in different geo, maybe they have slightly different use case, slightly different needs.

他们的需求有些相似，但也许他们位于不同的地理位置，也许他们的用例略有不同，需求也略有不同。

And your biggest way to continue growing a product-market fit without having to go to next horizon is to capture that next group of users.

继续发展产品市场契合度而无需进入下一个视野的最大方法是捕获下一组用户。

The interesting piece here of how I relate to it, we still have the core users.

有趣的是，我们仍然拥有核心用户。

And by the way, those core users are mostly pioneers right now that are excited by the capabilities.

顺便说一句，这些核心用户目前大多是对这些功能感到兴奋的先驱者。

Then there's latent majority that is filled with adjacent users.

然后是潜在的大多数，其中充满了相邻的用户。

And the issue right now, which I'm actually quite worried about us as a category is that we're constantly focusing on recapturing the pioneers.

现在的问题是，我实际上非常担心我们作为一个类别，因为我们一直致力于重新夺回先驱者。

Elena Verna: We don't have time to go after adjacent users, and I'm worried of whether there's going to be a gap in the space where we actually going to alienate the latent majority because we're so hyper focused on just staying top of mind and top capabilities on the pioneers.

Elena Verna：我们没有时间去追求相邻的用户，我担心我们实际上会疏远潜在的大多数用户，因为我们非常专注于保持先驱者的领先地位和顶级能力。

But I don't know the right answer here, because without the pioneers, you need pioneers for latent majority to follow.

但我不知道正确的答案，因为如果没有先驱者，你就需要潜在大多数人追随的先驱者。

But if you take pioneers and you take them too far into capabilities, will latent majority never be able to catch up?

但如果你把先驱者带入了他们的能力范围内，那么潜在的大多数人将永远无法赶上吗？

Maybe this is a fruitless concern, but it's just something that I think about because at this stage we should be working on adjacent users.

也许这是一个徒劳的担忧，但这只是我想到的事情，因为在这个阶段我们应该关注相邻用户。

I would argue maybe OpenAI definitely started to do that with how many people they have on their platform, but not most of the other AI companies.

我认为，也许 OpenAI 肯定已经开始这样做了，他们的平台上有多少人，但大多数其他人工智能公司却没有。

Lenny Rachitsky: I completely see what you're thinking there.

Lenny Rachitsky：我完全明白你在想什么。

A brand could just become known as that's just for startups and prototyping and it's not for serious work.

一个品牌可能只是为了初创公司和原型设计而出名，而不是为了严肃的工作。

Elena Verna: Yeah, or it's for techies.

Elena Verna：是的，或者是为技术人员准备的。

It's for tech people.

这是给技术人员的。

It never actually enters the people outside of our little bubble that we live in.

它从未真正进入我们生活的小泡沫之外的人们。

Lenny Rachitsky: We touched on this a little bit of just working in AI, working on AI companies, challenging, stressful, a lot of work.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们在人工智能领域工作、在人工智能公司工作、充满挑战、压力很大、工作量很大，都谈到了这一点。

What's your advice for folks that are thinking about, should I join a Lovable?

对于那些正在考虑我是否应该加入 Lovable 的人，您有什么建议？

Should I join a Cursor?

我应该加入游标吗？

Should I-

我应该——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

are thinking about, "Should I join a Lovable?

正在思考，“我应该加入一个可爱的人吗？

Should I join a Cursor?

我应该加入游标吗？

Should I just go work at Google?"

我应该去谷歌工作吗？”

Lenny Rachitsky: Not to throw them under the bus or anything.

Lenny Rachitsky：不要把他们扔到公共汽车或其他什么地方。

Although Google, very, very successful in AI now, maybe a less AI-focused company.

尽管谷歌现在在人工智能领域非常非常成功，但它可能是一家不太关注人工智能的公司。

Elena Verna: I really believe that there's different...

Elena Verna：我真的相信有不同的......

You need to understand what's the environment that is right for you.

您需要了解什么环境适合您。

Just please understand that AI companies are very hectic at the moment.

请理解人工智能公司目前非常忙碌。

They're very unstable by definition of that product-market fit treadmill, about that distribution of how they're actually distribute to the market, really changing about how product is even being developed in the first place.

从产品与市场契合跑步机的定义来看，它们非常不稳定，关于它们如何实际分配到市场的分配，甚至从一开始就真正改变了产品的开发方式。

So if you are very comfortable in being in that messy middle and really comfortable of converting chaos into clarity for you and those around you, then yeah, AI company is a wonderful place for you to really absorb new skill sets right now.

因此，如果你非常愿意处于混乱的中间，并且非常愿意为你和你周围的人将混乱转化为清晰，那么，是的，人工智能公司是你现在真正吸收新技能的绝佳场所。

Because even before joining Lovable, when I kept seeing AI, I'm like, "My gosh, I'm so tired of seeing AI everywhere.

因为即使在加入 Lovable 之前，当我不断看到人工智能时，我就会想，“天哪，我厌倦了到处看到人工智能。

Is it really changing the world?

它真的在改变世界吗？

Is it really changing the way people work?"

它真的改变了人们的工作方式吗？”

Elena Verna: And I was at Dropbox before, and yeah, we would use AI here and there and I would use ChatGPT.

Elena Verna：我之前在 Dropbox，是的，我们会到处使用人工智能，我会使用 ChatGPT。

I've never used AI there the way I use AI at Lovable and the things that I'm capable of accomplishing at Lovable, and I don't know if I ever would've made that leap so fast unless I joined Lovable.

我从来没有像在 Lovable 使用人工智能那样使用人工智能，也没有像我在 Lovable 能够完成的事情一样，而且我不知道除非我加入 Lovable，否则我是否会实现如此快的飞跃。

If I would've just read or listened about it, it's just different compared to be surrounded by people where it's expectation.

如果我只是读到或听到它，那与被期望的人们包围相比是不同的。

It's not like a nice-to-have or something that somebody's asking you to do.

这不像是一件好事或某人要求你做的事情。

This is just how you get things done.

这就是你完成工作的方式。

And you have to think about everything of, "What can AI do here versus where do I add value versus in a traditional sense of work?" because I start with my own value and then I augment it with AI.

你必须考虑一切，“与传统意义上的工作相比，人工智能在这里可以做什么，我可以在哪里增加价值？”因为我从自己的价值开始，然后用人工智能来增强它。

And here, the mindset has completely shifted.

在这里，心态已经完全转变。

Elena Verna: Now, I don't think AI is replacing everybody's job, so please don't look at it as that cliche saying.

Elena Verna：现在，我不认为人工智能正在取代每个人的工作，所以请不要像陈词滥调那样看待它。

I actually often call AI as average intelligence that helps me get the platform up.

事实上，我经常将人工智能称为帮助我建立平台的平均智能。

And then I add my human thinking and my human creativity on top of it to get it to the next level.

然后我将我的人类思维和人类创造力添加到它之上，以将其提升到一个新的水平。

But at least I can get this base level done with AI really freaking quickly.

但至少我可以用人工智能快速完成这个基础级别。

Elena Verna: So from that perspective, I think if you want to leapfrog on what it means to be AI native employee and how to use all of these AI tools, you should go to AI company.

Elena Verna：所以从这个角度来看，我认为如果你想在人工智能原生员工的含义以及如何使用所有这些人工智能工具方面取得跨越式发展，你应该去人工智能公司。

But if you know that your superpower is in more structure and more definition and a really high specialty of things, because in AI companies, they're all fairly small, so you'll have to generalize quite a bit and have a lot of ownership, all of areas that you usually maybe not have ownership over, then you shouldn't join it, because AI companies will evolve to be more stable too.

但如果你知道你的超级大国具有更多的结构、更多的定义和非常高的专业性，因为在人工智能公司中，它们都相当小，所以你必须进行相当多的概括并拥有很多所有权，所有你通常可能没有所有权的领域，那么你就不应该加入它，因为人工智能公司也会发展得更加稳定。

Elena Verna: So it's just a matter of time on where you can join.

Elena Verna：所以你可以加入哪里只是时间问题。

So I would just urge people to look at their superpowers and the type of environments that really speak to them so they can feel happy, because this can lead to burnout for wrong type of personalities very quickly.

因此，我只是敦促人们审视自己的超能力以及真正能与他们交谈的环境类型，以便他们感到快乐，因为这可能会很快导致错误类型的性格倦怠。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

My sense is if you want work-life balance, don't join one of these companies, because that's just not the way they work.

我的感觉是，如果你想要工作与生活的平衡，就不要加入这些公司，因为那不是他们的工作方式。

Elena Verna: I don't know if I'd go that far.

Elena Verna：我不知道我是否会走那么远。

I mean, I have family, I have two kids.

我的意思是，我有家人，我有两个孩子。

I feel like I have a very good work-life balance, but I put in boundaries for myself.

我觉得我的工作与生活平衡得很好，但我为自己设定了界限。

I know when I need time off because I know when my brain starts to overheat, so to speak.

我知道什么时候需要休息，因为我知道什么时候我的大脑开始过热，可以这么说。

But I also know that work is my hobby and it's my passion, and this is the best work of my life that I'm doing right now.

但我也知道工作是我的爱好，是我的激情，这是我现在正在做的一生中最好的工作。

There's no other place that I'd rather be than to be here.

没有比这里更让我想去的地方了。

Elena Verna: So I think that you just need to be more careful about setting your own boundaries that you know you need.

Elena Verna：所以我认为你只需要更加小心地设定你自己需要的界限。

But I mean, let's face it, I don't think anybody has work-life balance, regardless of a company that they work at, even at Google or Microsoft or any of the others.

但我的意思是，让我们面对现实吧，我认为没有人能够实现工作与生活的平衡，无论他们在哪家公司工作，即使是在谷歌、微软或任何其他公司。

I think everybody's freaking out and running as fast as they can, it's just they're running it in different structures.

我认为每个人都惊慌失措并尽可能快地奔跑，只是他们在不同的结构中运行。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm really glad you said that and corrected me there, that it is possible to work at a company, one of, if not the fastest-growing company in history and actually have work-life balance to get sleep, to spend time with your kids and family.

Lenny Rachitsky：我真的很高兴你这么说并纠正了我，在一家公司工作，即使不是历史上发展最快的公司之一，也是可能的，并且实际上可以平衡工作与生活，以便睡觉，与孩子和家人共度时光。

Elena Verna: You just have to protect it ruthlessly, but you also need to be realistic with how much is expected out of you, and you need to feel confident that you'll be able to deliver it.

Elena Verna：你只需要无情地保护它，但你也需要现实地了解对你的期望，并且你需要对自己能够实现它充满信心。

And by the way, you won't be able to deliver it unless you use AI in many aspects of your work life.

顺便说一句，除非你在工作生活的许多方面使用人工智能，否则你将无法实现它。

So that's the piece that helps you actually get to hit those expectations of outcomes that you need to do and the velocity.

因此，这就是帮助您真正达到所需结果和速度的预期的部分。

But I'm very protective of my personal time with kids.

但我非常保护与孩子们在一起的私人时间。

Why did I have children if I'm not going to spend time with them?

如果我不花时间陪伴他们，为什么还要生孩子呢？

So those are part of the non-negotiables that I bring along with me in every single work.

所以这些都是我在每件作品中都带着的不容妥协的部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: For people that maybe have trouble setting boundaries or just not good at this, anything, what works for you?

Lenny Rachitsky：对于那些可能难以设定界限或不擅长此道的人来说，什么对你有用？

Is it as easy as just telling people, "Here's where I need to leave"?

难道只是告诉人们“这是我需要离开的地方”那么简单吗？

What advice do you have for people to set boundaries like that?

对于人们设定这样的界限，你有什么建议？

Elena Verna: So first of all, I would not think about it as a work-life balance.

Elena Verna：首先，我不会将其视为工作与生活的平衡。

There's no such thing as balance.

不存在所谓的平衡。

So balance feels like, "Oh, I have enough time for everything."

所以平衡的感觉就像是，“哦，我有足够的时间做每件事。”

Elena Verna: I don't have enough time for anything, but I prioritize my family in some moments, I prioritize work in other moments, and I don't try to balance the two.

Elena Verna：我没有足够的时间做任何事情，但有时我会优先考虑家庭，有时会优先考虑工作，而且我不会试图平衡两者。

I go where I'm needed and where I go, and I feel like I'm not going to regret the choices that I'm making today.

我去需要我的地方和我去的地方，我觉得我不会后悔我今天所做的选择。

So I'm constantly trying to put myself in the future and say, "Will I resent myself if I make this choice right now?" And if the answer is yes, I don't make that choice.

所以我不断地尝试把自己放在未来并说：“如果我现在做出这个选择，我会怨恨自己吗？”如果答案是肯定的，我就不会做出这样的选择。

Elena Verna: And sometimes I have to say no to Anton and say, "I can't make it," or, "I won't be there.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：有时我不得不对安东说不，说“我做不到”，或者“我不会去那里。”

I need to be here with my family," or, "Today I need to cancel my day.

我需要和我的家人在一起，”或者，“今天我需要取消我的一天。

My kid is sick and he needs me, and I need to take him to the doctor."

我的孩子病了，他需要我，我需要带他去看医生。”

Elena Verna: So I think that just making in the moment, in every day, when sometimes in-the-hour decisions, to me, works better than trying to balance something that is completely unachievable and it feels overwhelming to even think about.

Elena Verna：所以我认为，对我来说，每天在当下做出决定，有时比试图平衡一些完全无法实现的事情要效果更好，甚至连想想都感到不知所措。

But I prioritize this in my sleep, my health, my workout schedule, my kids, my family, my husband, and just my downtime because I know that I'm most creative once I have separation from work, because then I come in with all cylinders firing and I have so many more ideas about it.

但我在我的睡眠、我的健康、我的锻炼计划、我的孩子、我的家庭、我的丈夫以及我的休息时间中优先考虑这一点，因为我知道一旦我与工作分离，我就最具创造力，因为那时我会全力以赴，对此我有更多的想法。

So to me, it's actually part of doing my best work is to take time off.

所以对我来说，真正做到最好的工作的一部分就是休假。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is really great advice.

Lenny Rachitsky：这确实是一个很好的建议。

I want to touch on what it's like to work at Lovable because it feels like Lovable is at the cutting edge of what working in product is going to be.

我想谈谈在 Lovable 工作的感觉，因为感觉 Lovable 处于产品工作的最前沿。

So you mentioned a little bit about how you're always talking to AI, asking questions.

所以你提到了一些关于你如何总是与人工智能交谈、提出问题的事情。

Is there any other kind of anecdotes of just how people operate at Lovable that is really unique or weird or funny or interesting that might be helpful for people to try in their company?

关于人们在 Lovable 的运作方式，是否还有其他一些真正独特、怪异、有趣或有趣的轶事，可能有助于人们在他们的公司尝试？

Elena Verna: Yeah.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

I mean, we use Lovable at Lovable a lot.

我的意思是，我们经常使用 Lovable at Lovable。

All of our internal tools are built on Lovables.

我们所有的内部工具都是基于 Lovables 构建的。

We actually have our first hackathon on Lovable happening next week, where our entire company is just going to take full day to vibe code and see what we actually have happen.

事实上，我们的第一次 Lovable 黑客马拉松将于下周举行，我们整个公司将花一整天的时间来氛围代码，看看我们实际发生了什么。

We prototype everything on Lovable.

我们对 Lovable 上的一切进行原型设计。

So our specs, yeah, we do still have a written spec, but it always accompanied by a lovable prototype that everybody can interact with and to click around with and provide feedback.

所以我们的规范，是的，我们仍然有一个书面规范，但它总是伴随着一个可爱的原型，每个人都可以与之互动、点击并提供反馈。

And everybody bunches in and also does some edits if they have any better ideas.

如果有更好的想法，每个人都会一起参与并进行一些编辑。

Elena Verna: So I create mocks on Lovable.

Elena Verna：所以我在 Lovable 上创建了模拟。

So for example, we need to make some pricing changes, or pricing page changes.

例如，我们需要进行一些定价更改，或定价页面更改。

I take a screenshot of our pricing page.

我截取了我们的定价页面的屏幕截图。

I go to Lovable as I recreate this pricing page, make these changes, and then I send that to my engineering team saying, "Hey, this is what I want to happen." And then they take it from there.

当我重新创建此定价页面时，我会转到 Lovable，进行这些更改，然后将其发送给我的工程团队并说：“嘿，这就是我想要发生的事情。”然后他们从那里拿走它。

Elena Verna: And ChatGPT, I use a lot for brainstorming, especially the deep thinking mode.

Elena Verna：还有 ChatGPT，我经常使用头脑风暴，尤其是深度思考模式。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

It takes a long time, but it's so worth it.

这需要很长时间，但是非常值得。

Sometimes it has crazy ideas.

有时它会产生疯狂的想法。

Sometimes it was like, "Yeah, this is nothing new to me." So it's not interesting, but it gets me thinking and it gives me a look at the different angles.

有时就像，“是的，这对我来说不是什么新鲜事。”所以这并不有趣，但它让我思考，让我从不同的角度观察。

Elena Verna: And I use Granola a lot, for example, because to me, it's super helpful to get AI summaries of the meetings and it's very powerful for me.

Elena Verna：例如，我经常使用格兰诺拉麦片，因为对我来说，获得人工智能会议摘要非常有帮助，而且对我来说非常强大。

I use Wispr Flow a lot because I feel like I have no time to type anymore.

我经常使用 Wispr Flow，因为我觉得我没有时间再打字了。

So I just talk to my phone and talk to my laptop all the time in order to do it.

所以我只是一直对着我的手机和我的笔记本电脑说话来做到这一点。

But we're even thinking about all of the customer support automations that are done through AI.

但我们甚至正在考虑通过人工智能完成的所有客户支持自动化。

Every single aspect of what we do, question is asked, what can AI do here first, and then how we can add ourselves into the equation.

我们所做的每一个方面都会被问到，人工智能首先可以做什么，然后我们如何将自己加入到这个等式中。

Elena Verna: But Lovable for us, having unlimited credits at Lovable is a pretty awesome perk, I have to say.

Elena Verna：但我不得不说，Lovable 对我们来说，在 Lovable 拥有无限积分是一项非常棒的福利。

I sometimes have to pinch myself.

有时我不得不掐自己一下。

I'm like, "I get paid to vibe code." It looks so fun.

我想，“我通过氛围代码获得报酬。”看起来很有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: Feel like that engineer, that vibe code engineer, he's actually getting paid to vibe code.

Lenny Rachitsky：感觉就像那个工程师，那个氛围代码工程师，他实际上是通过氛围代码获得报酬的。

Elena Verna: He has my dream job.

Elena Verna：他有我梦想的工作。

I want his job.

我想要他的工作。

Elena Verna: Yeah, I got into the wrong line profession here.

Elena Verna：是的，我在这里进入了错误的行业。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计。

Okay.

好的。

Is there anything else about Lovable?

还有什么关于《可爱》的吗？

Because what I think about, actually, I interviewed the Perplexity founders back in the day years ago.

因为我的想法是，实际上，我在几年前采访了 Perplexity 的创始人。

Before we talked to anyone for advice, we first asked ChatGPT, and I was just like, "That is the most insane thing I've ever heard.

在我们向任何人寻求建议之前，我们首先询问了 ChatGPT，我当时的反应是：“这是我听过的最疯狂的事情。

How can you possibly work that way?"

你怎么可以这样工作？”

Lenny Rachitsky: And now that's how everyone works.

Lenny Rachitsky：现在每个人都是这样工作的。

And so I'm curious, I don't know how Anton works.

所以我很好奇，我不知道安东是如何工作的。

Is there anyone else that's just way in the future of here's how things might be?

还有其他人会认为未来的事情会是这样吗？

Elena Verna: So for me, especially for product and growth, and even marketing in some capacity, when I have an idea in my head, it sounds so freaking cool.

Elena Verna：所以对我来说，特别是对于产品和增长，甚至以某种方式进行营销，当我脑子里有一个想法时，它听起来非常酷。

And sometimes I put it on paper and it's like, "Ah, we need to do it."

有时我把它写在纸上，就像，“啊，我们需要这样做。”

Elena Verna: And then I go and try to vibe code it, and I'm like, "Oh, I don't see the magic anymore," or I can't envision it anymore.

Elena Verna：然后我尝试对其进行振动编码，然后我想，“哦，我再也看不到魔法了”，或者我无法再想象它了。

Elena Verna: Or sometimes I'm like, "Yeah.

Elena Verna：或者有时我会说，“是的。

Yeah," and there's more, there's more.

是的，”还有更多，还有更多。

So to me, it actually has helped really complete the ideation process for me quite a bit, because then I actually try to go and build it, and it breaks down some of the elements of what's important, what's not.

所以对我来说，它实际上帮助我真正完成了相当多的构思过程，因为然后我实际上尝试去构建它，它分解了一些重要的、不重要的元素。

So it's taking me on a product development lifecycle so much further down.

因此，它使我的产品开发生命周期更加深入。

And then it creates a much better communication vehicle with my engineers too, because I then can tell them exactly what's important and whatnot.

然后它也为我的工程师创造了更好的沟通工具，因为这样我就可以准确地告诉他们什么是重要的，什么是不重要的。

Elena Verna: So to me, it's been great because sometimes we envision things that are so much better than the reality.

Elena Verna：对我来说，这很棒，因为有时我们想象的事情比现实要好得多。

And before, until it hands it off to design, designers would do it for us and try to make it awesome versus I often stop my ideas in tracks super early on without pushing it forward.

在此之前，在将其交给设计之前，设计师会为我们做这件事并尝试使其变得很棒，而我经常很早就停止我的想法而不推动它前进。

Versus other times I might've pushed it for too far too long, even through design queue or even pitching to leadership.

与其他时候相比，我可能已经把它推得太远太久了，即使是通过设计队列，甚至向领导层推销。

And I find that very powerful because it calibrates me really quickly.

我发现这非常强大，因为它可以让我很快地进行校准。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Last question.

最后一个问题。

I want to talk about something that you've written about that I think it's a really important topic, something that we should surface, is you wrote this post called I'm Worried About Women In Tech.

我想谈谈你写的一些东西，我认为这是一个非常重要的话题，我们应该提出的东西，你写了这篇名为“我担心科技界的女性”的文章。

Talk about what you're seeing here, what you're noticing, what you think might be going in the wrong direction.

谈谈你在这里看到的、你注意到的、你认为可能会走向错误方向的地方。

Elena Verna: Yeah.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

There's actually conflicting data points about how women...

关于女性如何......的数据点实际上是相互矛盾的。

You're talking about women, right?

你说的是女人吧？

Elena Verna: There's conflicting data points about how women are keeping up with AI technology and wave, because there's a bunch of reports that has been done that show massive gap between women adopting AI versus men adopting AI, which points the story that men are just widening the gap of accessibility for technology.

Elena Verna：关于女性如何跟上人工智能技术和浪潮的数据点存在相互矛盾，因为已经完成的大量报告显示，女性采用人工智能与男性采用人工智能之间存在巨大差距，这表明男性只是在扩大技术可及性的差距。

And whoever's adopting AI right now is getting paid the most, gets the most opportunities.

无论谁现在采用人工智能，谁都会获得最多的报酬，获得最多的机会。

I mean, we're seeing insane acqui-hires right now, where people are getting paid more for their talent than for the companies that they've created.

我的意思是，我们现在看到了疯狂的收购招聘，人们因为自己的才华而获得的报酬比他们创建的公司的报酬还要高。

And that's a really interesting trend that is occurring, and a lot of it is fueled on this wave of AI.

这是一个正在发生的非常有趣的趋势，其中很大一部分是由这波人工智能浪潮推动的。

Elena Verna: And women are not really present there.

Elena Verna：女性并没有真正出现在那里。

If you can think about one million-dollar acqui-hire that has been in the news that is a woman, I can't think of one.

如果你能想到新闻中报道过的价值一百万美元的女性招聘，我想不出一个。

If you look at AI companies and their CEOs, most of it is men.

如果你看看人工智能公司及其首席执行官，大多数都是男性。

If you look at the company's composition in AI companies, it's mostly men.

如果你看看人工智能公司的公司构成，大部分都是男性。

To me, this really came to the head of when I came to Lovable, and I'm like, "It's pink, it's purple brand.

对我来说，当我来到 Lovable 时，这确实是我最关心的问题，我想，“它是粉红色的，它是紫色的品牌。

It's a heart.

这是一颗心。

It's lovable." I'm like, "I'm sure this is where it's 50/50 men versus a woman."

它很可爱。”我想，“我确信这就是男女比例各为 50/50 的地方。”

Elena Verna: And although we don't collect this information, but just through third-party autofill, we saw it's like 20% at most.

Elena Verna：虽然我们不收集这些信息，但仅通过第三方自动填充，我们看到最多只有 20%。

And I'm like, "What is happening?

我想，“发生了什么事？

Not again.

不会再有。

Why is this, again, not being adopted by a woman?"

为什么这又不被女人收养呢？”

Elena Verna: And obviously I don't know all of the answers.

Elena Verna：显然我不知道所有的答案。

I think that this is early on that we can shortcut it.

我认为现在还为时过早，我们可以走捷径。

And by the way, I also don't want to put this as a indication that men are to blame because I think men are doing wonderful job really spearheading the horizons and showing us what's possible and leading the charge.

顺便说一句，我也不想将此视为男性应该受到指责的迹象，因为我认为男性做得非常出色，真正引领了视野，向我们展示了可能性，并引领了潮流。

I'm just afraid that so many women are stuck in that latent majority that is just not catching up.

我只是担心有这么多女性被困在潜在的大多数中，只是没有赶上。

And my worry is that it's going to affect the hireable talent.

我担心这会影响可聘用的人才。

It's going to step us back again in the composition of the workplace, of the diversity.

这将使我们在工作场所的构成和多样性方面再次倒退。

And maybe it matters, maybe it doesn't, like whichever side that you sit on.

也许这很重要，也许并不重要，就像你坐在哪一边一样。

But I think that it needs to be built for everybody in the world, and for that, it needs to be built by a representative sample of people that are behind the product as well.

但我认为它需要为世界上的每个人构建，为此，它也需要由产品背后的代表性人员样本来构建。

Elena Verna: So I just find it fascinating that even when the barrier to building has been lowered versus you don't need computer science degree, which I appreciate there's not that many women that are getting.

Elena Verna：所以我觉得很有趣的是，即使建筑的门槛已经降低，你也不需要计算机科学学位，我很欣赏没有那么多女性获得计算机科学学位。

We're still seeing the gaping gap on the adoption between genders, which, I don't know, there's something very frustrating about that.

我们仍然看到性别之间的收养差距巨大，我不知道，这令人非常沮丧。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

The thing that struck with me from your post is there has been a lot of progress being made in the last decade, and now AI is just kind of turning it all back, turning it all around.

你的帖子让我印象深刻的是，过去十年里已经取得了很多进步，而现在人工智能正在扭转一切，扭转局面。

Elena Verna: Hopefully not.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：希望不是。

I think that we're early on enough that we can bridge the gap.

我认为我们还很早，可以弥合差距。

I think sometimes women just need space and ability to discover it, and that's what we're doing at Lovable.

我认为有时女性只是需要空间和能力来发现它，这就是我们在 Lovable 所做的事情。

We have this initiative, SheBuilds, where we create a hackathon for women only and we give them unlimited access to Lovable for 48 hours, and they come together as a community and they build together.

我们有一个名为 SheBuilds 的倡议，我们为女性举办了一场黑客马拉松，我们让她们在 48 小时内无限制地访问 Lovable，她们作为一个社区聚集在一起，一起构建。

And there's beautiful things that start to come out of it, which I've never anticipated before.

一些美丽的东西开始出现，这是我以前从未预料到的。

But so many women in that hackathon for us build help with their elderly parents or with their kids or with the household or for their church group or for the kids' basketball team solutions, which have hyper-local, hyper-relevant, very needed for what they need in their life and something that was never been able to build before because of how expensive software was, because it would never going to become potentially a hundred-million-dollar companies, but it also doesn't need to be anymore.

但是，参加黑客马拉松的许多女性为我们的年迈父母、孩子、家庭、教会团体或孩子的篮球队提供了帮助，这些解决方案具有超本地化、超相关性、非常适合她们生活中的需要，并且是以前从未能够构建的东西，因为软件非常昂贵，因为它永远不会成为潜在的价值数亿美元的公司，但它也不再需要了。

Elena Verna: So I just want to bring women to build more and vibe code more so we can have more diversity in software that is even created because I think that we all have a unique take on what problems that we can solve, and I want everybody's voices to be heard.

Elena Verna：所以我只是想让女性更多地构建更多的代码，这样我们就可以在创建的软件中拥有更多的多样性，因为我认为我们对我们可以解决的问题都有独特的看法，我希望每个人的声音都能被听到。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'll give the URL for SheBuilds.

Lenny Rachitsky：我将提供 SheBuilds 的 URL。

I pulled it up while you're talking, shebuilds.lovable.app.

你说话的时候我把它拉出来了，shebuilds.loveable.app。

Elena Verna: It's fully vibe coded on Lovable.

Elena Verna：这完全是 Lovable 上的氛围编码。

Elena Verna: Is there a minimum viable product?

Elena Verna：有最低可行产品吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: There it is.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：就是这样。

So when is this happening?

那么这是什么时候发生的呢？

Is this December 15th, 18th?

这是12月15日、18日吗？

Oh, yeah, it's coming up.

哦，是的，它即将到来。

Elena Verna: Yeah, we're running it constantly.

Elena Verna：是的，我们一直在运行它。

Elena Verna: So our next cohort starts December 15th, but we're going to have more.

Elena Verna：所以我们的下一个队列将于 12 月 15 日开始，但我们还会有更多。

Elena Verna: We're planning a massive one on International Women's Day.

Elena Verna：我们计划在国际妇女节举办一场盛大的活动。

So that's the one that if you can, come join us.

所以如果你可以的话，请加入我们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, so some glimmer of hope.

好吧，还有一线希望。

I don't know if you saw this tweet where I tagged you the other day, or maybe it was today.

我不知道你是否在前几天或今天看到了我标记你的这条推文。

I was looking at my most recent podcast video performance, and the top four are all women and they're all AI-oriented.

我正在看我最近的播客视频表现，前四名都是女性，而且都是面向人工智能的。

And they're above Stewart Butterfield, founder of Slack, above Gamma's CEO, Grant, so maybe a glimmer of hope.

他们的排名高于 Slack 的创始人斯图尔特·巴特菲尔德 (Stewart Butterfield)，高于 Gamma 的首席执行官格兰特 (Grant)，所以也许还有一线希望。

Elena Verna: Yeah, absolutely.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的，绝对是。

I think there's lots of glimmers of hope.

我认为还有很多希望的曙光。

I think we can just all lean in and make sure that nobody's left behind in this wave.

我认为我们可以齐心协力，确保没有人在这波浪潮中落下。

And that's not to stop people that are marching ahead.

这并不能阻止人们前进的脚步。

This is just to open up opportunities for everybody around us.

这只是为了为我们周围的每个人提供机会。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And we'll link to that post if people want to get a deeper perspective, what you're saying.

如果人们想更深入地了解您所说的内容，我们将链接到该帖子。

Elena, is there anything else that you wanted to share?

埃琳娜，你还有什么想分享的吗？

Is there anything else you want to remind people of before we get to your one-question lightning round?

在我们开始您的单问题闪电轮之前，您还有什么要提醒人们的吗？

Elena Verna: I guess the only other thing that I will share is for AI companies when it comes to hiring.

Elena Verna：我想我要分享的唯一一件事是人工智能公司在招聘方面的情况。

It's really interesting, also, kind of the shift in the type of personas that end up being hired that I see.

我所看到的最终被聘用的角色类型的转变也非常有趣。

For me, at least it's quite different compared to anywhere that I worked before.

对我来说，至少与我以前工作过的地方相比，它有很大不同。

And that is, there's this narrative going in the market always that new hires, sorry, new grads have no jobs in the market left because all of the entry-level jobs are automated.

也就是说，市场上总是有这样的说法：新员工，抱歉，新毕业生在市场上已经没有工作了，因为所有入门级工作都是自动化的。

Elena Verna: I actually think that's quite false, because new grads, especially AI-native new grads...

Elena Verna：我实际上认为这是非常错误的，因为新毕业生，尤其是人工智能原生的新毕业生......

So it's very important for kids that are entering into the, I shouldn't say kids, young adults that are entering into the workforce that they really know AI, which there's another really big issue that our schools are not teaching AI students.

因此，对于那些正在进入劳动力市场的孩子来说，我不应该说孩子们，年轻人，他们真正了解人工智能，这是非常重要的，这是另一个非常大的问题，我们的学校没有教人工智能学生。

So this is something else that we need to fix as a category, because otherwise we're literally setting up our young for a complete failure.

因此，这是我们作为一个类别需要解决的其他问题，因为否则我们实际上是在让我们的年轻人彻底失败。

But I think it's incredible to see some of those new graduates come in and what they're capable of doing.

但我认为看到一些新毕业生的加入以及他们的能力是令人难以置信的。

Elena Verna: We have multiple new graduates at Lovable that are working, and I learned so much from them.

Elena Verna：我们有多名在 Lovable 工作的应届毕业生，我从他们身上学到了很多东西。

And you need to obviously have the right atmosphere where people with experience, like a old guard like me, that can look at the new guard and really hear them and see them and really change the way that I operate based on how they do things.

显然，你需要营造一种合适的氛围，让有经验的人，比如像我这样的老守卫，能够看到新守卫，真正听到他们的声音，看到他们，并根据他们的做事方式真正改变我的运作方式。

So make sure that you bring some of that fresh talent that doesn't understand any of the baggage that we came from and that can really look at the future in technology and what can unlock from a completely new lens.

因此，请确保您带来一些新的人才，他们不了解我们的任何包袱，并且能够真正看待技术的未来以及可以从全新的角度解锁什么。

So highly recommend putting those into your team as little fireballs that are going to be sometimes hard to contain but can start the best initiatives for you forward.

因此，强烈建议将它们作为小火球放入您的团队中，这些火球有时很难控制，但可以为您的前进启动最佳举措。

Elena Verna: And then it's also interesting that there's a really high demand for ex-founders now, for those people that truly have a lot of agency and high autonomy.

Elena Verna：同样有趣的是，现在对前创始人、那些真正拥有大量代理权和高度自主权的人的需求非常高。

So instead of just having people that have been working in the corporate world, the failed startup founders are now hot demand for a lot of these AI companies.

因此，失败的初创公司创始人现在不再只是在企业界工作的人才，而是许多人工智能公司的热门人才。

So these personas that we traditionally would not prioritize in companies to hire are now becoming the hottest commodity and the highest-going talent, which I think is fascinating and is the wonderful thing that is changing how the culture inside operates.

因此，我们传统上不会在公司中优先雇用的这些角色现在正在成为最热门的商品和最优秀的人才，我认为这很有趣，并且是改变内部文化运作方式的奇妙事物。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is really interesting and really empowering, just this idea that if you need grad, there's hope.

Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很有趣，也很有力量，只要你需要研究生，就有希望。

You're not going to be out of a job.

你不会失业。

Lenny Rachitsky: And you might have an advantage.

Lenny Rachitsky：而且你可能有优势。

Yeah.

是的。

Elena Verna: You have to lead with that.

Elena Verna：你必须带头。

That's the thing.

就是这样。

You have to lead with the things that you are capable of achieving, knowing what you have with AI, because that is a lot of people.

你必须领导你有能力实现的事情，知道你在人工智能方面拥有什么，因为有很多人。

Especially in traditional tech or in more traditional companies, they're looking for somebody to show them because it's really hard to figure it out on your own versus coming in and seeing and then copying.

尤其是在传统技术或更传统的公司中，他们正在寻找有人向他们展示，因为与进来看看然后复制相比，你自己真的很难弄清楚。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, Elena, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，Elena，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Because it's your fourth time, I'm not going to ask you all the questions I always ask you.

因为这是你第四次，我不会问你我一直问你的所有问题。

So I'm just going to ask you one question.

所以我只想问你一个问题。

So Lovable is based in Stockholm, Sweden.

So Lovable 总部位于瑞典斯德哥尔摩。

I'm curious, just what's something you love about Stockholm that you weren't expecting?

我很好奇，您对斯德哥尔摩的喜爱有哪些是您没有预料到的？

Is there a food, a restaurant?

有食物、餐厅吗？

I don't know, something.

我不知道，有什么。

Elena Verna: Well, you always have to say Swedish meatballs.

Elena Verna：嗯，你总是不得不说瑞典肉丸。

I mean, I've never liked meatballs before, and now it's so good here.

我是说，我以前从来不喜欢肉丸，现在这里太好吃了。

It's so good.

太好了。

So every time, one of my meals here throughout the day involves it.

所以每次我一天中的一顿饭都会涉及到它。

But I actually really love their-

但我其实真的很喜欢他们——

Lenny Rachitsky: It sounds really good.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：听起来确实不错。

I actually haven't yet.

我其实还没有。

Elena Verna: Yeah.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

I don't know, they just taste different and they're-

我不知道，它们只是味道不同而且它们-

Lenny Rachitsky: And they smell like the Ikea.

Lenny Rachitsky：它们闻起来像宜家。

It's not like the Ikea Swedish meatballs.

它不像宜家的瑞典肉丸。

Elena Verna: Well, I have been to Ikea here, because that is a Swedish company too.

Elena Verna：嗯，我去过宜家，因为那也是一家瑞典公司。

It reminded me of in-person Amazon.

它让我想起了亚马逊。

It was absolutely incredible.

这绝对令人难以置信。

Ikea here is next level.

宜家这里是下一个层次。

But food, Swedish meatballs for sure.

但食物，肯定是瑞典肉丸。

Honestly, how clean the city is, it's kind of incredible.

老实说，这座城市有多干净，有点令人难以置信。

The architecture, everything is so built out.

建筑，一切都是如此建造的。

It's picture perfect like it's on a card.

它的图片非常完美，就像在卡片上一样。

I don't know.

我不知道。

It's different compared to most of the large cities that I've been at that are little bit more worn down.

与我去过的大多数大城市相比，它有所不同，它们都比较破旧。

Lenny Rachitsky: So fun.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太有趣了。

Makes me want to visit and get some meatballs.

让我想去参观并买一些肉丸。

Elena Verna: Yeah, and visit during the summer.

Elena Verna：是的，夏天的时候来参观。

Otherwise, the daylight here-

不然这里的白天——

Elena Verna: ...

埃琳娜·维尔娜：……

is really tight during the winter.

冬天真的很紧。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Good tip.

好提示。

Okay.

好的。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, maybe learn more?

如果人们想要联系您或者了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Elena Verna: Yes.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

Please find me online on LinkedIn.

请在 LinkedIn 上在线找到我。

Please feel free to follow me.

请随时关注我。

Always engage on my post if you want to engage with me because that's the place that I always talk to people.

如果您想与我互动，请务必关注我的帖子，因为那是我总是与人们交谈的地方。

I have my newsletter as well that baby steps compared to what Lenny has, but it's elenaverna.com.

我也有我的时事通讯，与莱尼的相比，我的时事通讯只是小步前进，但它是 elenaverna.com。

That's where I post most of my findings that I experience at my work.

我在那里发布了我在工作中经历的大部分发现。

So if you want to continue seeing how my thinking evolves or the patterns that I notice, that's where to find me.

因此，如果您想继续了解我的思维如何演变或我注意到的模式，那就可以找到我。

Elena Verna: And how to be useful to me?

Elena Verna：如何对我有用？

Really pressure test my thinking because so many things are changing right now.

确实对我的想法进行了压力测试，因为现在很多事情都在发生变化。

I'm honestly not even sure myself of what is a pattern versus what is just a data point.

老实说，我什至不确定什么是模式，什么只是数据点。

So I'd love to just engage in as many conversations as possible and hear your opinions because that will help us as an industry just understand what is actually happening and makes more sense out of this whole thing.

因此，我很乐意参与尽可能多的对话并听取您的意见，因为这将帮助我们作为一个行业了解实际发生的事情，并使整个事情更有意义。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm just going to double click on your newsletter.

Lenny Rachitsky：我只需双击您的时事通讯。

Definitely subscribe to it.

一定要订阅它。

It's incredibly good.

这真是太棒了。

Everything we've talked about here, Elena has written about in her newsletter in large part and goes even deeper.

我们在这里讨论的所有内容，埃琳娜都在她的时事通讯中写了大部分内容，甚至更深入。

It's just elenaverna.com.

这就是 elenaverna.com。

If you're reading this on your podcast app or YouTube, you could just look at her name and just type it .com and you'll find it, and subscribe and you'll be really happy.

如果您在播客应用程序或 YouTube 上阅读此内容，您只需查看她的名字并输入 .com，您就会找到它，然后订阅，您会非常高兴。

Lenny Rachitsky: Elena, thank you so much for being here.

Lenny Rachitsky：Elena，非常感谢你来到这里。

This was amazing, everything I wanted it to be.

这太棒了，这一切都是我想要的。

Thank you for sharing.

谢谢您的分享。

I know you have a lot of work to do, so I appreciate you making time for this and for joining us.

我知道您有很多工作要做，因此非常感谢您抽出时间并加入我们。

Elena Verna: Thank you for having me.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：谢谢你邀请我。

Really appreciate you.

真的很感谢你。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。