The ultimate guide to product-led sales | Elena Verna
Elena Verna: The most important thing in product-led sales is that there is a different configuration internally of collaboration that needs to occur.
Elena Verna：在以产品为主导的销售中，最重要的是需要在内部进行不同的协作配置。
In traditional sales world, marketing creates pipeline for sales.
在传统的销售领域，营销为销售创造了渠道。
Sales sells product.
销售销售产品。
Product engages with a paid user to drive retention.
产品与付费用户互动以提高保留率。
In the product-led sales, product acquires and activates a customer and product creates pipeline for sales, so relationship is not that there's a go-to-market org with marketing and sales and product just kind of throws features across the fence for them to sell.
在以产品为主导的销售中，产品获取并激活客户，产品创建销售渠道，因此关系并不是有一个负责营销和销售的进入市场组织，而产品只是将功能扔到栅栏上让他们销售。
Elena Verna: The collaboration here is between product and sales, but that means the product has to take on accountability over pipeline.
Elena Verna：这里的合作是产品和销售之间的合作，但这意味着产品必须承担管道的责任。
The worst thing that you can do is to say, "I'm going to do product-led growth," or, "I'm going to do product-led sales and I'm going to do it in marketing." Recipe for disaster.
你能做的最糟糕的事情就是说，“我将进行产品主导的增长”，或者，“我将进行产品主导的销售，并且我将在营销中做到这一点。”灾难的秘诀。
You'll be failure mode within six months because product has to take accountability over selling of the product itself.
你将在六个月内陷入失败模式，因为产品必须对产品本身的销售承担责任。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。
Today, my guest is Elena Verna.
今天，我的客人是埃琳娜·维尔娜。
If that name sounds familiar, Elena is a return guest and you be the judge, but I think this episode is even better than the first, which is a very high bar because that first episode continues to be one of the most popular of the podcast.
如果这个名字听起来很熟悉，埃琳娜是回头客，你是评判者，但我认为这一集甚至比第一集更好，这是一个非常高的标准，因为第一集仍然是播客中最受欢迎的集之一。
Elena has worked at or advised companies like Miro, Amplitude, SurveyMonkey, MongoDB, Netlify, and a dozen others.
Elena 曾在 Miro、Amplitude、SurveyMonkey、MongoDB、Netlify 等十几家公司工作或担任顾问。
She's also a longtime instructor and EIR at Reforge where she helped create their experimentation, monetization, growth, leadership, and their soon-to-be released PLG course.
她还是 Reforge 的长期讲师和 EIR，帮助创建了他们的实验、货币化、成长、领导力以及即将发布的 PLG 课程。
Lenny: In this conversation, we go incredibly deep into the emerging space of product-led sales.
莱尼：在这次谈话中，我们非常深入地探讨了以产品为主导的销售这一新兴领域。
Elena explains what exactly is product-led sales, how it fits together with product-led growth and sales-led growth, who and when you should consider investing product-led sales, how product-led sales changes your approach to sales and marketing, what sorts of data, tooling, and people you need in place to do it well, and what common pitfalls you need to avoid.
Elena 解释了到底什么是产品主导型销售、它如何与产品主导型增长和销售主导型增长相结合、您应该考虑投资产品主导型销售的对象和时间、产品主导型销售如何改变您的销售和营销方法、您需要什么样的数据、工具和人员来做好这项工作，以及您需要避免哪些常见陷阱。
I've said this before and I'll say it again, Elena is possibly the smartest and most experienced growth person in the world, especially when it comes to B2B, and I never get tired of learning from her.
我以前说过，现在我再说一遍，Elena 可能是世界上最聪明、最有经验的成长型人士，尤其是在 B2B 方面，我从不厌倦向她学习。
Enjoy this episode with Elena Verna after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短致辞后，请与 Elena Verna 一起欣赏这一集。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Linear.
Lenny：这一集是由 Linear 为您带来的。
Let's be honest, the sheet tracker isn't very helpful.
老实说，工作表跟踪器并不是很有帮助。
Why is it that it always seems to be working against you instead of working for you?
为什么它似乎总是对你不利而不是对你有利？
Why does it feel like such a chore to use?
为什么使用起来感觉这么麻烦？
Well, Linear is different.
那么，线性则不同。
It's incredibly fast, beautifully designed, and it comes with powerful workflows that streamline your entire product development process from issue tracking all the way to managing product roadmaps.
它的速度令人难以置信，设计精美，并且具有强大的工作流程，可以简化从问题跟踪一直到管理产品路线图的整个产品开发流程。
Linear is designed for the way modern software teams work.
Linear 专为现代软件团队的工作方式而设计。
Lenny: What users love about Linear are the powerful keyboard shortcuts, efficient GitHub integrations, cycles that actually create progress and built-in project updates that keep everyone in sync.
Lenny：用户喜欢 Linear 的原因是强大的键盘快捷键、高效的 GitHub 集成、真正创造进度的循环以及让每个人保持同步的内置项目更新。
In short, it just works.
简而言之，它就是有效的。
Linear is the default tool of choice among startups and it powers a wide range of large established companies such as Vercel, Retool, and Cash App.
Linear 是初创公司选择的默认工具，它为 Vercel、Retool 和 Cash App 等众多大型老牌公司提供支持。
See for yourself why product teams describe using Linear as magical.
亲自了解为什么产品团队将 Linear 描述为神奇的。
Visit linear.app/lenny to try Linear for free with your team and get 25% off when you upgrade.
访问 Linear.app/lenny 与您的团队一起免费试用 Linear，并在升级时享受 25% 的折扣。
That's linear.app/lenny.
那是 Linear.app/lenny。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Braintrust, where the world's most innovative companies go to find talent fast so that they can innovate faster.
莱尼：这一集是由 Braintrust 为您带来的，世界上最具创新力的公司都在其中快速寻找人才，以便更快地创新。
Let's be honest, it's a lot of work to build a company, and if you want to stay ahead of the game, you need to be able to hire the right talent quickly and confidently.
老实说，建立一家公司需要做很多工作，如果你想在竞争中保持领先地位，你需要能够快速、自信地聘用合适的人才。
Braintrust is the first decentralized talent network where you can find, hire, and manage high-quality contractors in engineering, design, and product for a fraction of the cost of agencies.
Braintrust 是第一个去中心化的人才网络，您可以在其中寻找、雇用和管理工程、设计和产品方面的高质量承包商，而成本只是代理机构的一小部分。
Braintrust charges a flat rate of only 10%, unlike agency fees of up to 70%, so you can make your budget go four times further.
Braintrust 只收取 10% 的统一费率，与高达 70% 的代理费不同，因此您可以使您的预算多出四倍。
Plus, they're the only network that takes 0% of what the talent makes, so they're able to attract and retain the world's best tech talent.
此外，他们是唯一一个收取 0% 人才收入的网络，因此他们能够吸引并留住世界上最优秀的技术人才。
Lenny: Take it from DoorDash, Airbnb, Plaid, and hundreds of other high-growth startups that have shaved their hiring process from months to weeks at less than a quarter of the cost by hiring through Braintrust's network of 20,000 high-quality vetted candidates ready to work.
Lenny：以 DoorDash、Airbnb、Plaid 和其他数百家高增长初创公司为例，通过 Braintrust 的 20,000 名经过审查的高素质候选人网络进行招聘，这些公司将招聘流程从几个月缩短到几周，成本不到四分之一。
Whether you're looking to fill in gaps, upscale your staff, or build a team for that dream project that finally got funded, contact Braintrust and you'll matched with three candidates in just 48 hours.
无论您是想填补空缺、提升员工规模，还是为最终获得资助的梦想项目组建团队，请联系 Braintrust，您将在短短 48 小时内与三位候选人匹配。
Visit usebraintrust.com/lenny or find them in my show notes for today's episode.
请访问 usebraintrust.com/lenny 或在我今天这一集的节目笔记中找到它们。
That's usebraintrust.com/lenny for when you need talent yesterday.
当您昨天需要人才时，这就是 usebraintrust.com/lenny。
Lenny: Elena, welcome back to the podcast.
莱尼：埃琳娜，欢迎回到播客。
Elena Verna: Thank you for having me back.
埃琳娜·维尔纳：谢谢你让我回来。
I thought I would be the first returning guest.
我以为我会是第一个回头客。
I'm a little bit upset that I am been beat by Casey, so you should explain yourself on that one.
我对被凯西击败感到有点沮丧，所以你应该对此做出解释。
Lenny: Okay, here's the explanation.
莱尼：好的，这就是解释。
You're the first that we rebooked back and then this one just kind of got pushed a little bit and Casey had a slot earlier, so technically you were the first scheduled return guest.
你是我们第一个重新预订回来的人，然后这个有点被推迟了，凯西早些时候有一个位置，所以从技术上讲，你是第一个预定的回程客人。
Elena Verna: All right, all right.
埃琳娜·维尔娜：好吧，好吧。
I'll accept that.
我会接受这一点。
Lenny: Okay, great.
莱尼：好的，太好了。
I'm off the hook.
我摆脱困境了。
I guess I'll just say I am really excited to have you back.
我想我只能说我很高兴你能回来。
Your episode that we did maybe a year ago is still one of the most popular episodes of all time.
我们大约在一年前制作的您的剧集仍然是有史以来最受欢迎的剧集之一。
I still see people tweeting about it and sharing it, and so I am really excited to have you back and have a take two.
我仍然看到人们在推特上谈论它并分享它，所以我真的很高兴你能回来并试一试。
Elena Verna: I'm excited to be back.
埃琳娜·维尔纳：我很高兴能回来。
Let's dive in.
让我们深入了解一下。
Lenny: Before we get into the content, when we met last time you were Interim Head of Growth at Amplitude.
Lenny：在我们进入正文之前，我们上次见面时，您是 Amplitude 增长部门的临时负责人。
What are you up to now?
你现在在忙什么？
What's happened in the past year?
过去一年发生了什么？
Elena Verna: I just wrapped up interim gig at Amplitude in February, so it's just been a couple of months since then.
Elena Verna：二月份我刚刚结束了 Amplitude 的临时演出，所以从那以后才过了几个月。
I'm passively exploring if I'm going to take another interim position, but between interim roles I always take about six to eight months of break because interim rolls are very intense because there's so many deliverables that are loaded in in the first year that you're working at the company, so I'm just advising.
我正在被动地探索是否要担任另一个临时职位，但在临时职位之间，我总是需要大约六到八个月的休息时间，因为临时工作非常紧张，因为在公司工作的第一年有很多可交付成果，所以我只是提供建议。
I have incredible companies that I started advising such as Veed.io and Sanity and Clockwise, and I'm building up my next level of frameworks that I'm going to dive into potentially a new interim position to prototype.
我开始为 Veed.io、Sanity 和 Clockwise 等令人难以置信的公司提供咨询服务，并且我正在构建下一个级别的框架，我将深入研究潜在的新的临时职位原型。
Lenny: Ooh.
莱尼：哦。
If people are listening to this and they're like, "How do I get to work with Elena?", should people reach out to you?
如果人们在听这个节目时会问，“我怎样才能和埃琳娜一起工作？”，人们应该联系你吗？
Are you booked up?
你订满了吗？
What do you suggest?
你有什么建议？
Elena Verna: I'll never take down an opportunity to have a great conversation and to learn about the business and to see how I can be helpful, but I'm not proactively sourcing clients, but that doesn't mean that I don't have availability to schedule something in the future.
Elena Verna：我永远不会放弃进行愉快对话、了解业务以及了解如何提供帮助的机会，但我不会主动寻找客户，但这并不意味着我没有时间安排未来的事情。
Lenny: Awesome, so if it's amazing enough, you're open to it?
莱尼：太棒了，所以如果它足够令人惊奇，你愿意接受吗？
Lenny: Okay, great.
莱尼：好的，太好了。
Okay, here we go.
好的，我们开始吧。
Great -
太棒了 -
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
open to new opportunities, yes.
对新机会持开放态度，是的。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
I feel the same way.
我也有同样的感觉。
FOMO.
FOMO。
FOMO kicks in.
FOMO 开始出现。
Anyway, as you know, we're going to be devoting this entire podcast to just one topic, which is product-led sales, which is this go-to-market motion that seems to have emerged over the past year maybe a bit longer and just feels like there's this increasing amount of interest and also this increasing amount of confusion around what it is, how to approach it, who it's right for.
无论如何，如您所知，我们将把整个播客集中讨论一个主题，即以产品为主导的销售，这种进入市场的动议似乎在过去一年中出现了，可能更长一些，只是感觉人们的兴趣越来越大，但关于它是什么、如何处理它、它适合谁的困惑也越来越多。
We're going to spend the next hour diving really deep into product-led sales.
我们将在接下来的一个小时内深入研究以产品为主导的销售。
Lenny: Let's do it.
莱尼：我们开始吧。
Okay, so let's just start with a bigger picture kind of question of just, how do you define product-led sales?
好吧，让我们从一个更大的问题开始，即如何定义产品主导的销售？
What is product-led sales, especially when it comes to what is it versus product-led growth?
什么是产品主导型销售，特别是它与产品主导型增长之间的区别？
Elena Verna: Great question, so let's start with product-led growth.
Elena Verna：好问题，所以让我们从产品主导的增长开始。
We've talked about it a little bit in our first episode, but let's revisit the topic.
我们在第一集中讨论过这个问题，但让我们再回顾一下这个话题。
Product led growth is all about product's ability to self-serve activate, self-serve engage, and convert that usage to a monetization opportunity.
产品主导的增长取决于产品自助激活、自助参与以及将这种使用转化为货币化机会的能力。
You bring people, you get them to an aha moment into the habit loops, and then you able to extract value back out of them.
你把人们带进来，让他们顿时进入习惯循环，然后你就能从他们身上提取价值。
Extraction of the value can be direct where you're actually capturing revenue from them, or it can be indirect where they're participating in your growth model via virality or user-generated content and bring additional business through the doors.
价值的提取可以是直接的，即您实际从他们那里获取收入，也可以是间接的，即他们通过病毒式传播或用户生成的内容参与您的增长模型，并带来额外的业务。
Elena Verna: Let's talk about direct phase to capture that value.
Elena Verna：我们来谈谈捕捉该值的直接相位。
There's self-serve monetization, so I'm using product self-serve.
有自助货币化，所以我使用产品自助服务。
I go to the pricing page.
我进入定价页面。
I find the plan that best suits me on features that I want to unlock or usage that I want to unlock and I buy it.
我找到最适合我想要解锁的功能或想要解锁的用途的计划，然后购买它。
However, that's not the only way to monetize that usage.
然而，这并不是通过这种使用获利的唯一方法。
You can monetize that usage with sales, too.
您也可以通过销售将这种使用量货币化。
Why?
为什么？
Self-serve monetization has a cap of about $10,000.
自助货币化的上限约为 10,000 美元。
That's just how much we're able to process on the credit cards before they start getting flagged and declined by the banks and how much we as a consumers and prosumers are even willing to put on our credit card because not all credit cards have limits of over 10, 20, 30, $40,000.
这就是我们在信用卡开始被银行标记和拒绝之前能够处理的金额，以及我们作为消费者和产消者甚至愿意在信用卡上存入的金额，因为并非所有信用卡的限额都超过 10、20、30、40,000 美元。
Elena Verna: Self-serve monetization is very much a prosumer use case where an individual is trying to solve the problem on their own.
Elena Verna：自助货币化很大程度上是一个产消者用例，个人试图自己解决问题。
Product-led sales converts the usage that you've generated via self-serve into a sales opportunity and it attaches a salesperson to close a much larger contract, which can be 15, 20, a hundred thousand dollars in order to bring an enterprise-level solution to a company that has already been using it in a self-serve manner.
以产品为主导的销售将您通过自助服务产生的使用量转化为销售机会，并让销售人员签订一份更大的合同（可能是 15、20、10 万美元），以便为已经以自助方式使用企业级解决方案的公司带来企业级解决方案。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Would you say that product-led growth has always been in a sense product-led sales because sales was involved and theirs has been kind of like way of describing it?
您是否认为产品主导的增长在某种意义上一直是产品主导的销售，因为涉及销售，而他们的描述方式有点像？
Or is this a new trend and way of approaching product-led growth?
或者这是实现产品主导型增长的新趋势和方式？
Elena Verna: Product-led growth has actually started more on individual use case-
Elena Verna：产品主导的增长实际上更多地开始于个人用例 -
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
so an individual has a problem.
所以个人有问题。
They have a job to be done.
他们有工作要做。
They come into the product and they solve it, and that was product-led growth in a nutshell for a lot of the B2B companies.
他们进入产品并解决问题，简而言之，对于许多 B2B 公司来说，这就是产品主导的增长。
However, if you're going to attach a salesperson, there is nobody in the company that is going to pay 10, 15, $20,000 for one individual to solve their problem.
然而，如果你要聘请一名销售人员，公司里没有人愿意支付 10、15、20,000 美元请一个人来解决他们的问题。
Product-led sales assumes that there's a migration from an individual use case that you acquired an end user with and an escalation into an enterprise-level solution that solves enterprise-level problems.
以产品为主导的销售假设从您获得最终用户的单个用例迁移并升级为解决企业级问题的企业级解决方案。
Let me break it down and let me use just, for example, Amplitude as an example.
让我将其分解并仅使用振幅作为示例。
Elena Verna: Amplitude, individual, what is individual wanted with Amplitude?
Elena Verna：Amplitude，个人，个人对 Amplitude 想要什么？
I need data at my fingertips to make better decisions for my product, so I'm going to put an Amplitude SDK into my product and it gives me behavioral data to help me build my pillar better.
我需要触手可及的数据来为我的产品做出更好的决策，因此我将把 Amplitude SDK 放入我的产品中，它为我提供行为数据来帮助我更好地构建我的支柱。
What is the company-level solution?
公司层面的解决方案是什么？
Well, it's more self-serve ability of the data.
嗯，更多的是数据的自助服务能力。
It's democratization of data.
这是数据的民主化。
It's enhanced insights in the more data-driven culture.
它增强了对数据驱动文化的洞察力。
That's what company's solving for.
这就是公司正在解决的问题。
Individual is not solving for data-driven culture.
个人并没有解决数据驱动的文化。
Individual is just solving for data insights for them.
个人只是为他们解决数据洞察问题。
Company's solving for data-driven culture.
公司解决数据驱动文化的问题。
Elena Verna: In product-led growth, you can just have an individual be very happy with their solution for their job to be done.
Elena Verna：在产品主导的增长中，你可以让个人对他们完成工作的解决方案感到非常满意。
However, what product-led sales assumes is that there is an escalator to an enterprise-level solution, and enterprise escalator is valuable to attach sales resources to because products fundamentally do a really bad job at communicating enterprise-level value prop.
然而，以产品为主导的销售假设存在通往企业级解决方案的自动扶梯，而企业自动扶梯对于附加销售资源很有价值，因为从根本上说，产品在传达企业级价值支撑方面做得非常糟糕。
They're very good at showing you as a user what you can do.
他们非常擅长向用户展示您可以做什么。
They've very terrible at showing what organization actually can benefit out of the solution.
他们非常不擅长展示哪些组织实际上可以从该解决方案中受益。
Elena Verna: Sales can tell that story.
Elena Verna：销售可以讲述这个故事。
Sales can bridge that gap, and then you can increase the perceived value in order to bridge the gap to that $15,000, 20, hundred-thousand dollar contract.
销售可以弥补这一差距，然后你可以增加感知价值，以弥补与 15,000 美元、20 美元、10 万美元合同的差距。
I would say self-serve monetization is very much an individual use case versus product-led sales is turning that individual use case and self-serve usage into a sales pipeline with enterprise-level value.
我想说，自助货币化在很大程度上是一种个人用例，而以产品为主导的销售正在将个人用例和自助服务使用转变为具有企业级价值的销售渠道。
Lenny: I really like that way of thinking about it.
莱尼：我真的很喜欢这种思考方式。
Basically product-led growth has a ceiling.
基本上，产品主导的增长是有上限的。
You're only going to get-
你只会得到——
Lenny: ...
莱尼：……
so high in terms of spend.
就支出而言如此之高。
You can only explain things so much to a potential user and then sales comes in and solves a lot of those problems, and product-led sales is essentially this.
你只能向潜在用户解释这么多，然后销售就会出现并解决很多这些问题，而产品主导的销售本质上就是这样。
I think you even have this visualization now that I'm thinking about-
我想你现在已经有了这样的想象——
Lenny: ...
莱尼：……
as a bridge.
作为一座桥梁。
Right, yeah, this bridge between the two, and so in this world of product-led sales, does sales as a function, outbound sales, continue to exist?
是的，是的，两者之间的这座桥梁，因此在这个以产品为主导的销售世界中，销售作为一种功能，即对外销售，是否继续存在？
One, and then two, is it radically different in this world of product-led sales?
第一，第二，在这个以产品为主导的销售世界中，情况是否有根本的不同？
Elena Verna: Yeah, so to understand how sales should be applied in the situation, you need to understand end user's motivation, ability, and permission.
Elena Verna：是的，所以要了解如何在这种情况下应用销售，您需要了解最终用户的动机、能力和许可。
Simple organization, so for example, if the end user is very motivated, they have full sense of ability to solve the problem and they have all of the permission from organization, or maybe not even permission, maybe forgiveness from organization, to go and explore and bring in a new solution.
简单的组织，例如，如果最终用户非常积极，他们有充分的能力解决问题，并且他们拥有组织的所有许可，或者甚至没有许可，也许组织的宽恕，去探索并引入新的解决方案。
Then, it can be a very much organic motion up that escalator.
然后，它可以是自动扶梯上的一个非常有机的运动。
However, that's not always the case.
然而，情况并非总是如此。
A lot of times the end users miss permission of solving enterprise-level problems.
很多时候，最终用户会错过解决企业级问题的许可。
There's lots of stakeholders, there's a committee that has to make a decision.
有很多利益相关者，有一个委员会必须做出决定。
It impacts departments outside of their purview and maybe they even lack ability to do it.
它影响到了他们职权范围之外的部门，甚至可能他们缺乏能力做到这一点。
Maybe they can do their little job to be done, but not the entire enterprise-level integration.
也许他们可以完成他们需要完成的小工作，但不能完成整个企业级集成。
Elena Verna: In my Amplitude example, yeah, I can drop an SDK in my product area, but how do I convince entire product to adopt Amplitude and put an SDK on every single interaction across the entire app?
Elena Verna：在我的 Amplitude 示例中，是的，我可以在我的产品区域中放置 SDK，但如何说服整个产品采用 Amplitude 并将 SDK 放在整个应用程序的每个交互中？
There is different level problem statements, and this is where product-led sales is either can be a truly organic motion where people raise their hands, they submit sales forms and there's already a need, a desire, an understanding of it, or end user might hit friction points.
有不同级别的问题陈述，这就是产品主导的销售要么可以成为一种真正有机的运动，人们举手，提交销售表格，并且已经有需求、愿望、对其的理解，否则最终用户可能会遇到摩擦点。
Product-led sales has to bridge those friction points by either attracting the right decision-makers to the process so they can find an enterprise buyer out there.
以产品为主导的销售必须通过吸引正确的决策者参与流程来弥合这些摩擦点，以便他们能够找到企业买家。
They can understand who's the champion and what their capabilities and what their permission levels are.
他们可以了解谁是冠军、他们的能力以及他们的权限级别是什么。
They can create a committee for the decision.
他们可以成立一个委员会来做出决定。
Elena Verna: There is...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：有……
They almost slap a bandaid on the problem of people not be able to and not wanting to necessarily resolve the problem on their own.
他们几乎给那些无法、也不愿意自己解决问题的人贴上了创可贴。
They can be very powerful with that as well as marketing because we cannot forget about marketing where they can educate of how to help people bridge that gap and how to sell things internally.
他们在这方面和营销方面都非常强大，因为我们不能忘记营销，他们可以教育如何帮助人们弥合差距以及如何在内部销售产品。
Lenny: You mentioned this idea of enterprise-level problems.
Lenny：您提到了企业级问题的想法。
It might help if you give an example or two of what those might be.
如果您举出一两个例子可能会有所帮助。
Then, also, just what are examples of companies that are doing enterprise or product-led sales well just to kind of give people a mental model as you're talking about some of this stuff?
那么，还有哪些公司在企业或产品主导的销售方面做得很好，只是为了在你谈论这些东西时给人们一个心理模型？
Elena Verna: Sure, so let's go through a couple of them.
Elena Verna：当然，让我们来看看其中的几个。
Let's go through Miro.
让我们通过米罗。
Miro is an online whiteboarding platform.
Miro 是一个在线白板平台。
What is individual problem that people come to Miro to solve?
人们来米罗是为了解决什么个人问题？
They have a workshop they need to facilitate.
他们有一个需要举办的研讨会。
Maybe they need a board to just do brainwriting in and they use Miro for individual jobs to be done.
也许他们需要一块板来进行头脑风暴，他们使用 Miro 来完成个人工作。
However, what Miro is designed for is a team-level problem.
然而，Miro 的设计目的是团队层面的问题。
I come in and I bring you in and we collaborate together, so now there's two, three, four people involved, but even that is still on the project level, it's on the team level.
我进来，我带你进来，我们一起合作，所以现在有两个、三个、四个人参与，但即使这仍然是在项目层面，这是在团队层面。
Nobody's going to pay a hundred thousand dollars to solve a team-level small problem that is solving.
没有人愿意花十万美元来解决一个正在解决的团队级别的小问题。
What is the enterprise-level problem?
企业层面的问题是什么？
It's increased innovation, it's increased productivity across the entire team because now we have this new outlet in which we can collaborate.
它增加了创新，提高了整个团队的生产力，因为现在我们有了这个可以协作的新渠道。
Elena Verna: Now, can Miro very clearly show increase in productivity across the organization by using the product?
Elena Verna：现在，Miro 能否非常清楚地表明，通过使用该产品，整个组织的生产力得到了提高？
No. Can sales tell the story?
不。销售能讲故事吗？
Yes.
是的。
Miro takes you from an individual user to a team step, and then sales bridges the gap to an enterprise.
Miro 将您从个人用户带到团队步骤，然后销售弥合了与企业的差距。
Let's give another example of Figma.
我们再举一个 Figma 的例子。
In Figma, I come in as a designer and I just need a better way to capture feedback from my stakeholders, a more scalable way to capture it so I can iterate on the perfect design.
在 Figma 中，我是一名设计师，我只需要一种更好的方式来获取利益相关者的反馈，一种更具可扩展性的方式来获取反馈，以便我可以迭代完美的设计。
What is it at the team level?
团队层面是什么？
Now there is a team that can collaborate with me more openly.
现在有一个团队可以更开放地与我合作。
I can capture more feedback from more stakeholders faster and get the project done sooner.
我可以更快地从更多利益相关者那里获取更多反馈，并更快地完成项目。
Elena Verna: What is it on the enterprise level?
Elena Verna：企业层面是什么？
Well, on enterprise level, our designs are just better fit the business needs.
那么，在企业层面，我们的设计只是更好地满足业务需求。
They have faster turnaround time and our product is performing better.
他们的周转时间更快，我们的产品性能也更好。
That's an enterprise-level value prop and, again, we're, I think, in the product development space gotten a little bit lazy of actually showcasing that enterprise value in product.
这是一个企业级的价值支柱，而且，我认为，我们在产品开发领域有点懒于在产品中实际展示企业价值。
We rely on excellence of sales team to tell that story.
我们依靠卓越的销售团队来讲述这个故事。
I do hope that changes, by the way, in the future, that we put more pressure on the products to take it all the way up the escalator so we don't have to be a hundred percent dependent on the sales team going and showcasing that story.
顺便说一句，我确实希望将来会发生变化，我们对产品施加更大的压力，使其一路上升到自动扶梯，这样我们就不必百分百依赖销售团队来展示这个故事。
The product can really empower that escalator from the starting point till the end on its own.
该产品确实可以为自动扶梯提供从起点到终点的自主能力。
Lenny: I want to dig into that for sure.
莱尼：我确实想深入研究这一点。
I know that's something you just shared on LinkedIn recently and I thought that was a really interesting topic, but before we get there, let's talk about this bridge a little bit more.
我知道这是您最近在 LinkedIn 上分享的内容，我认为这是一个非常有趣的话题，但在我们开始之前，让我们再多讨论一下这座桥。
People might be listening to this that are maybe a product-led growth company and they may feel like, "Hey, wait, we're already doing this.
人们可能会听到这可能是一家以产品为主导的成长型公司，他们可能会觉得，“嘿，等等，我们已经在这样做了。
We have this product-led growth motion, we have a sales team.
我们有这种以产品为主导的增长动力，我们有一个销售团队。
They figure out who to talk to." What exactly is in that bridge that makes product-led sales so interesting?
他们知道该与谁交谈。”到底是什么让以产品为主导的销售如此有趣？
I imagine it's like helping you identify who to go after, helping people go further and further and escalate it themselves.
我想这就像帮助你确定要追捕谁，帮助人们走得越来越远并自行升级。
How do you think about that bridge between product and sales?
您如何看待产品和销售之间的桥梁？
Elena Verna: Let's talk about how product-led growth companies start with product-led sales.
Elena Verna：我们来谈谈产品主导型成长型公司如何从产品主导型销售开始。
It usually starts by an organic demand from a user base.
它通常始于用户群的有机需求。
They reach out to them through support channels by just pinging people who work at the company saying, "Hey, I want to purchase this for my entire company." That's an organic pool that you start feeling from product-led growth model into enterprise sales world and, by the way, you should never hire any salespeople until you feel that pool because if nobody's asking to purchase, then you cannot just hire an SDR and make a purchase happen.
他们通过支持渠道与公司员工联系，说：“嘿，我想为整个公司购买这个。”这是一个有机池，你开始从产品主导的增长模式进入企业销售世界，顺便说一句，在你感受到这个池之前，你不应该雇用任何销售人员，因为如果没有人要求购买，那么你就不能只雇用一个 SDR 并进行购买。
You need to see those hand-raisers, you need to see those people demanding an enterprise-level adoption.
您需要看到那些举手的人，您需要看到那些要求企业级采用的人。
Then, you hire starts hiring salespeople to actually suffice that demand and that's great, and you're starting to do sales and surfacing really addressing organic demand within your product.
然后，您开始雇用销售人员来实际满足该需求，这很好，并且您开始进行销售并真正解决产品中的有机需求。
Elena Verna: That organic demand very quickly dries up if you rely on hand-raisers of your champions.
Elena Verna：如果你依赖冠军的举手，那么有机需求很快就会枯竭。
If you rely on having enterprise buyers in your user base that are asking to just sign on the dotted line, then you have a very limited ceiling for your growth because what majority of the usage transforms to be is to have product qualification that there's a meaningful sales conversation that could occur based on the signals within usage that the buyer is missing.
如果您依赖于用户群中要求仅在虚线上签名的企业买家，那么您的增长上限非常有限，因为大多数使用转变为具有产品资格，即根据买家错过的使用中的信号可能会发生有意义的销售对话。
90% of product-led sales is converting the usage into an opportunity by finding a buyer outside, by finding the decision-maker outside.
90% 以产品为主导的销售正在通过寻找外部买家、寻找外部决策者将使用转化为机会。
This is where marketing and sales are so crucial in the process.
这就是营销和销售在此过程中至关重要的地方。
Connecting that decision-maker to the usage and then driving an opportunity through sales funnel all the way to closed one deal.
将决策者与使用情况联系起来，然后通过销售漏斗一路推动机会以完成一笔交易。
Elena Verna: It's great when you start having sales team and you're surfacing this organic demand.
Elena Verna：当您开始拥有销售团队并且能够满足这种有机需求时，这真是太棒了。
That's beautiful and power to you.
这对你来说是美丽和力量的。
Just it doesn't last very long just because end user fundamentally does not equal enterprise buyer and that organic demand ends up plateauing very shortly because you cannot just make enterprise buyers happen from your users.
只是它不会持续很长时间，因为最终用户从根本上不等于企业买家，并且有机需求很快就会趋于稳定，因为你不能仅仅让企业买家从你的用户中产生。
Lenny: If a founder is listening to this right now and they're like, "Okay, so I have maybe a product-led growth component, they're self-serve, maybe I have a sales team, maybe I don't," what's a sign that your product is a fit for investing in product-led sales?
莱尼：如果创始人现在正在听这个，他们会说，“好吧，所以我可能有一个以产品为主导的增长部分，他们是自助式的，也许我有一个销售团队，也许我没有，”什么迹象表明你的产品适合投资以产品为主导的销售？
Essentially every product-led growth-oriented company should be eventually investing in this area.
本质上，每个以产品为主导的增长型公司最终都应该投资这一领域。
Or is there certain companies that are like, "No, you don't need to worry about it, just stay product-led growth forever or just stay sales-led growth forever?"
或者是否有某些公司会说，“不，你不需要担心这个，只要永远保持产品主导的增长，或者永远保持销售主导的增长？”
Elena Verna: To have product-led sales means you're going upmarket-
Elena Verna：以产品为主导的销售意味着您正在走向高端市场-
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
period.
期间。
That means you going for contract values that are probably over your sales floor, so the minimum that the sales is willing to engage and close, which is traditionally around $15,000.
这意味着您寻求的合同价值可能超出您的销售底线，因此销售人员愿意参与并完成的最低金额（传统上约为 15,000 美元）。
If you're going for contract values of $15,000, that means you're probably trying to close a hundred, $200,000 contracts as well.
如果您的合同价值为 15,000 美元，这意味着您可能还试图签订一百份价值 200,000 美元的合同。
Who can handle a hundred, $200,000 contract?
谁能处理一百二十万美元的合同？
It's not going to be a small startup.
这不会是一家小型初创公司。
It's not going to be an SMB.
它不会成为中小企业。
It's probably going to be higher end of more of a mid-market segment, so 200 employees-plus.
它可能会是中端市场的高端市场，因此员工人数超过 200 人。
More likely it's going to be towards the enterprise segment of a thousand employees-plus.
更有可能的是，它会面向拥有一千多名员工的企业部门。
Elena Verna: If you are not ready to go upmarket, I would say keep it easy on the product-led sales because sales means quotas.
Elena Verna：如果您还没有准备好进军高端市场，我会说要轻松进行以产品为主导的销售，因为销售意味着配额。
Sales means large contract values.
销售意味着巨大的合同价值。
Sales means you are going upmarket whether you like it or not, and some products, they should stay in the prosumer individual space.
销售意味着无论你喜欢与否，你都会进入高端市场，而某些产品，它们应该留在产消者的个人空间中。
Maybe they're geared towards contractors or freelancers or squarely towards startups.
也许他们面向承包商或自由职业者，或者直接面向初创公司。
Those persons are not interested in talking to sales in the first place.
这些人一开始就没有兴趣与销售人员交谈。
They have much lower bearing of how much they're willing to spend, so their price sensitivity is much higher.
他们对愿意花多少钱的看法要低得多，因此他们的价格敏感度要高得多。
They prefer to do all self-serve in the first place, so it's really need to be conscious about what that will do to your go-to-market motion because it definitely skews it and pulls it up.
他们更喜欢首先进行所有自助服务，因此确实需要意识到这会对您的进入市场行动产生什么影响，因为它肯定会扭曲并拉动它。
Lenny: Got it, so what I'm hearing is that if you're starting as a self-serve-oriented product and you're starting to maybe hire for a salesperson, is the approach start approaching it from product-led sales motion versus now we're going to add the sales independent team that's kind of doing their own thing?
莱尼：明白了，所以我听到的是，如果你开始作为一个以自助服务为导向的产品，并且你开始可能雇用一名销售人员，那么该方法是从产品主导的销售行动开始接近它，还是现在我们要添加一个做自己事情的独立销售团队？
Elena Verna: Right, so there's two ways to get to product-led sales.
Elena Verna：是的，有两种方法可以实现以产品为主导的销售。
First little wave is that we talked about, I start as product-led growth company.
第一个小浪潮是我们谈到的，我是从产品主导的成长型公司开始的。
I really started with this individual use case and I'm escalating to a company-level value prop and this is what I need product-led sales for.
我真的从这个个人用例开始，我正在升级到公司级别的价值支撑，这就是我需要产品主导的销售。
On the other side, I might start as a top-down sales traditional organization, so I have product that I only sell through sales.
另一方面，我可能会从自上而下的传统销售组织开始，所以我的产品只能通过销售来销售。
Those are usually anchored at larger segments in the first place.
这些通常首先固定在较大的部分。
In order to build a top-down sales engine, you're most likely going after enterprise segment of a thousand-plus employees or maybe upper mid-market of 500 employees-plus.
为了建立自上而下的销售引擎，您很可能会瞄准拥有 1000 多名员工的企业部门，或者可能是拥有 500 名以上员工的中高端市场。
The reason to go into product-led sales is either your existing top-down motion is not working because customers need to see value before they sign the contract.
进行以产品为主导的销售的原因是您现有的自上而下的行动不起作用，因为客户需要在签署合同之前看到价值。
They want to see that usage and at least the first signs of perceived value before they sign on the dotted line.
他们希望在签署虚线上之前看到这种用法，至少是感知价值的第一个迹象。
Elena Verna: Or you're going downmarket and your fixed cost of sale that you have from the traditional sales motion does not scale.
Elena Verna：或者您正在进入低端市场，而传统销售活动中的固定销售成本无法扩大。
It stays fairly constant, yet your contract values are starting to drop as you're doing downmarket, so you want to create a lot more automation in the selling process to remove as many as possible humans out of it.
它保持相当稳定，但当你从事低端市场时，你的合同价值开始下降，因此你希望在销售过程中创建更多的自动化，以消除尽可能多的人员。
You can approach it from both ways.
您可以从两个方面进行处理。
Adding PLS on top of product-led growth or adding PLS on top of existing sales-led growth.
在产品主导型增长的基础上添加 PLS，或者在现有销售主导型增长的基础上添加 PLS。
For PLG, you're going upmarket by adding PLS.
对于 PLG，您可以通过添加 PLS 来进入高端市场。
For SLG or sales-led growth, by adding PLS you're going downmarket.
对于 SLG 或销售主导的增长，通过添加 PLS，您将进入低端市场。
Lenny: Awesome, and we're going to talk about how to actually build this infrastructure and what's required, but it reminds me one of the biggest takeaways from our first podcast and something I've quoted many times now, is your bet that every sales-led growth company needs to add a product-led growth element.
莱尼：太棒了，我们将讨论如何实际构建这个基础设施以及需要什么，但这让我想起了我们第一个播客的最大收获之一，也是我现在多次引用的内容，那就是每个以销售为主导的增长公司都需要添加以产品为主导的增长元素。
Otherwise, they'll be disrupted by someone that does.
否则，他们会被这样做的人打扰。
Is that still your perspective?
这仍然是你的观点吗？
Elena Verna: Absolutely.
埃琳娜·维尔娜：当然。
Now, I think there's different stages of, what does it mean to add product-led growth elements?
现在，我认为有不同的阶段，添加产品主导的增长元素意味着什么？
I think every sales-led company should be putting pressure on product to assist with the sales process.
我认为每个以销售为主导的公司都应该对产品施加压力，以协助销售过程。
That does not mean that there is product-led growth, but there is a product assist in the existing sales-led motion that can materialize into product-led growth if you can truly solve for self-serve activation, self-serve engagement, and have product be able to sell itself.
这并不意味着存在产品主导的增长，而是在现有的销售主导的运动中存在产品协助，如果你能够真正解决自助激活、自助服务参与并使产品能够自行销售，则可以实现产品主导的增长。
The biggest difference here that starts to come in, and that is so apparent in every single company, is that in B2B, unfortunately, we've let go of the products having accountability over monetization model.
不幸的是，在 B2B 领域，我们已经放弃了对货币化模式负责的产品，这在每家公司中都非常明显。
We've gotten into the spiral of product just builds a product and it throws it over the fence to marketing and sales to sell.
我们已经陷入了产品的螺旋式发展，只是构建了一个产品，然后将其扔到营销和销售的栅栏上进行销售。
Elena Verna: Marketing and sales have done an incredible job over the last couple of decades of coming up with these stories and elaborate playbooks of how to attract enterprise buyers and how to sell them this product.
Elena Verna：在过去的几十年里，营销和销售部门做了令人难以置信的工作，他们提出了这些故事和精心设计的剧本，讲述如何吸引企业买家以及如何向他们销售该产品。
Product literally only obsesses after contract is closed and there's usage that starts materialize after contract close.
从字面上看，产品只有在合同结束后才会被关注，并且在合同结束后才开始实现使用。
We've alleviated our product management in B2B from monetization ownership.
我们已经将 B2B 领域的产品管理从货币化所有权中解放出来。
When a SLG company actually goes into product-assisted tactics or product-led growth, the biggest pain point is actually educating product team on how can you get product to sell itself, which is all about monetization awareness, monetization friction of conversion to get into the paid plan, and then having actual correct value metrics that are understood self-serve by the customer.
当一家 SLG 公司真正采用产品辅助策略或产品主导型增长时，最大的痛点实际上是教育产品团队如何让产品自行销售，这一切都与货币化意识、进入付费计划的转化货币化摩擦有关，然后拥有客户可以理解的自助服务的实际正确价值指标。
Elena Verna: I mean, yes, I agree with you.
Elena Verna：我的意思是，是的，我同意你的观点。
Every single...
每一个...
I agree with myself, so I should say that every single sales-led company should at least add some product-assisted tactics, but I would even take it further that every sales-led company should start educating and putting pressure on the product to own monetization components of the business.
我同意我自己的观点，所以我应该说，每一个以销售为主导的公司至少应该添加一些产品辅助策略，但我什至会更进一步，每一个以销售为主导的公司都应该开始对产品进行教育和施加压力，以拥有业务的货币化部分。
Lenny: Let's pull on that thread a little bit more.
莱尼：让我们再进一步讨论一下这个话题。
What does that actually look like?
那实际上是什么样子的？
Does the head of product for that or the head of product or specific group PMs, let's say, have revenue goals and responsible for P&L and things like that?
比方说，产品负责人、产品负责人或特定集团的产品经理是否有收入目标并负责损益表之类的事情？
Or what does that generally look like when they start to own revenue?
或者当他们开始拥有收入时通常会是什么样子？
Elena Verna: There's two ways that you can own revenue.
Elena Verna：您可以通过两种方式获得收入。
Revenue stream one will be your self-serve revenue, and if there's self-serve revenue, that means product is selling literally itself, so yes, there has to be somebody in product that has self-serve revenue target.
收入来源之一将是您的自助服务收入，如果有自助服务收入，则意味着产品实际上是在自行销售，所以是的，产品中必须有人具有自助服务收入目标。
Elena Verna: Now, a lot of times it doesn't fall in the core product managers.
Elena Verna：现在，很多时候它并不属于核心产品经理。
A lot of times it falls on the growth team, and that's because core product management is really focused on feature deliverability and just that incremental expansion of the core use case, and growth product management owns the product distribution strategy.
很多时候，它落在增长团队的身上，这是因为核心产品管理真正关注的是功能可交付性以及核心用例的增量扩展，而增长产品管理拥有产品分销策略。
Then, the PLG case, it would be a true self-serve monetization model.
那么，PLG的案例，将是一个真正的自助货币化模式。
Now, when it comes to PLS, you don't own revenue target in my opinion, but what you do own is the pipeline that was created by product that you have a handshake with sales team over.
现在，说到 PLS，在我看来，你并不拥有收入目标，但你所拥有的是由你与销售团队握手的产品创建的管道。
Elena Verna: What that materializes in is product qualified accounts, and it's actually a product threshold of engagement that differs from activation and it differs from core engagement.
Elena Verna：具体体现的是产品合格帐户，它实际上是产品参与度的门槛，它不同于激活，也不同于核心参与度。
It's what volume, velocity, feature breadth, or behavioral signals that account is throwing that says, "Hey, right now is the time to engage with sales." That is the bridge to monetization, that product team should own as a...
账户发出的数量、速度、功能广度或行为信号表明，“嘿，现在是参与销售的时候了。”这是通向货币化的桥梁，产品团队应该拥有......
even on the core team in order to drive a healthy, predictable, and sustainable pipeline to sales.
甚至在核心团队中也是如此，以推动健康、可预测和可持续的销售渠道。
Lenny: Okay, so this is a really important topic.
莱尼：好的，这是一个非常重要的话题。
There's this concept you just described, product qualified account.
您刚才描述了这个概念，产品合格帐户。
It might be a good time to define a couple other acronyms and kind of compare them.
现在可能是定义其他几个首字母缩略词并对它们进行比较的好时机。
THere's PQA, there's PQL, product-qualified lead.
这里有 PQA，有 PQL，产品合格的领导。
There's marketing-qualified lead.
有符合营销资格的潜在客户。
Can you just maybe describe the suite of acronyms?
您能描述一下这组缩略语吗？
Then, I want to follow up on the PQA because that seems really important.
然后，我想跟进 PQA，因为这看起来非常重要。
Elena Verna: I'll start with PQA just because we just breezed over it.
Elena Verna：我将从 PQA 开始，因为我们刚刚轻松解决了它。
PQA is product-qualified account.
PQA是产品合格账户。
It's on account level, it's aggregation of multiple users that are using the account.
它位于帐户级别，是使用该帐户的多个用户的聚合。
It might be on the overall logo level, so let's say you've attracted a company, so you qualify PQA across the entire company usage, or it might be on a specific team or workspace level depending on what is the better predictor for you and who the sales team is going to be engaging with.
它可能在整体徽标级别上，假设您吸引了一家公司，因此您在整个公司的使用范围内验证 PQA，或者它可能在特定团队或工作空间级别上，具体取决于什么是对您更好的预测因素以及销售团队将与谁合作。
Product qualification is very much product metrics.
产品资格在很大程度上是产品指标。
It's the volume of use, it's the velocity change.
这是使用量，是速度变化。
For example, yesterday I've been adding one user per day and then today I've added 15 users to account.
例如，昨天我每天添加 1 个用户，今天我向帐户添加了 15 个用户。
That's a velocity change that you need to pay attention to.
这是您需要注意的速度变化。
Or there is a feature usage that can be highly correlative to enterprise interest.
或者存在与企业利益高度相关的功能使用情况。
That product should be driving towards every single account reaching in order to qualify them for sales conversation.
该产品应该吸引每一个客户，以使他们有资格进行销售对话。
Elena Verna: Now, within the PQA, there may or may not be PQL, so PQL is a product-qualified lead.
Elena Verna：现在，在 PQA 内，可能有也可能没有 PQL，因此 PQL 是产品合格的领导者。
Lead assumes there is a person in the account that I can go and sell to.
潜在客户假设帐户中有一个我可以向其销售的人。
Now, leads are those buyers.
现在，潜在客户就是那些买家。
They're those decision-makers in the account, and if you have a smaller segment, so for example you had more in small businesses or lower end of mid-market segment, you may very have PQLs in there because user is maybe equals buyer.
他们是账户中的决策者，如果您的细分市场较小，例如您在小型企业或低端中端市场细分市场中拥有更多，那么您可能在那里有 PQL，因为用户可能等于买家。
User can make those buyer decisions.
用户可以做出购买决定。
However, the more you move up the market, the more end user is many steps separated from the buyer, so you might have very healthy usage and you might have a PQA that is off the charts, but you don't have a PQL in it.
然而，您在市场上的地位越高，最终用户与买家之间的距离就越远，因此您可能有非常健康的使用情况，并且您可能有一个超出图表的 PQA，但其中没有 PQL。
Elena Verna: If you just stick your sales against that account, you're going to have a very terrible situation and very terrible user journey where users are like, "Why is sales talking to me?
Elena Verna：如果你只是将销售额与该帐户进行比较，你将会遇到非常糟糕的情况和非常糟糕的用户旅程，用户会说，“为什么销售人员要跟我说话？
I have no decision-making power in my organization.
我在我的组织中没有决策权。
I love the product, but please leave me alone." This is where you get a bunch of cold outbound, and I put big quotations on outbound emails that are just not getting returned.
我喜欢这个产品，但请别打扰我。”这是你收到一堆冷出站邮件的地方，我对那些没有得到回复的出站电子邮件进行了大的报价。
You need to very clearly understand who's your buying persona and, are they in your user base?
您需要非常清楚地了解谁是您的购买角色，他们是否在您的用户群中？
If they are, you have a PQL.
如果是，那么您就有了 PQL。
Pass them, go for it, but if they're not, go find it out there.
通过他们，去寻找它，但如果他们没有，就去那里找到它。
This is where MQL concept really comes into play because then marketing has to still qualify a lead to bring it and connect it to PQA.
这就是 MQL 概念真正发挥作用的地方，因为营销人员仍然必须限定潜在客户，以将其引入并将其连接到 PQA。
PQA can have a PQL as a user already in the user base, or you might need an MQL with marketing or sales, bringing their lead over and connecting them with the usage.
PQA 可以将 PQL 作为用户群中已有的用户，或者您可能需要具有营销或销售的 MQL，将他们的领先优势带入并将他们与使用情况联系起来。
Lenny: Amazing, so we're going to share a link.
莱尼：太棒了，所以我们要分享一个链接。
You have this awesome visual that shows kind of like the funnel of PQAs and PQLs funneling into sales along with marketing qualified leads.
您可以看到这个令人惊叹的视觉效果，它显示了类似于 PQA 和 PQL 的漏斗，以及与营销合格的销售线索一起流入销售的漏斗。
Basically there's a kind of instead of one path to sales, knowing who to talk to, now there's two.
基本上，有一种而不是单一的销售途径，知道与谁交谈，现在有两种。
Product is funneling you people that are qualified, and then marketing following you people that are qualified.
产品正在向您输送合格的人员，然后营销您合格的人员。
Elena Verna: There is a third path.
Elena Verna：还有第三条路。
There might be a marketing funneling people that have no usage whatsoever and that is a true top-down lead, so you have three buckets of lead attribution that is coming in.
可能存在一种营销渠道，将没有任何用途的人们集中起来，这是真正的自上而下的销售线索，因此您将获得三部分销售线索归因。
I have usage and one of the users is my lead.
我有使用情况，其中一位用户是我的领导。
I have usage.
我有使用。
I have no lead in the account.
我的账户里没有铅。
Marketing is bringing me the lead, but I have to leverage that usage against that lead or have a lead coming through, there is no usage.
营销为我带来了领先优势，但我必须利用这种使用来对抗该领先优势，或者有一个领先优势，但没有使用。
I have to sell the entire thing still to them, so there's no context that I can use of existing usage.
我仍然必须将整个东西卖给他们，所以我没有可以使用现有用法的上下文。
Those three channels are super important to identify.
识别这三个渠道非常重要。
They all have very different conversion rates.
它们的转化率都有很大不同。
They all have different playbooks of how you close them and, honestly, they require often different sales team to go after them because it's a very different sales enablement.
他们对于如何关闭它们都有不同的剧本，老实说，他们通常需要不同的销售团队来追随他们，因为这是一种非常不同的销售支持。
Lenny: You remind me of...
莱尼：你让我想起了……
You have so many hilarious memes that you share on LinkedIn.
您在 LinkedIn 上分享了很多搞笑的表情包。
By the way, everyone listening should go follow Elena on LinkedIn and subscribe to our newsletter because it's hilarious and also informative.
顺便说一句，每个听众都应该在 LinkedIn 上关注 Elena 并订阅我们的时事通讯，因为它既有趣又信息丰富。
It's a magical combination.
这是一个神奇的组合。
One of my favorite memes of yours is The Shining one that we just kind of touched on where someone's-
我最喜欢的模因之一是《闪灵》，我们刚刚触及了某人的——
Lenny: ...
莱尼：……
just using a product for five minutes and then, "Hey, do you want to," a sales guy just reaches out with the ax, "Hey, do you want to chat?"
只需使用产品五分钟，然后“嘿，你想吗？”销售人员就伸出斧子，“嘿，你想聊天吗？”
Elena Verna: That actually...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：实际上……
It's painfully true.
这是令人痛苦的事实。
That's one of my most highly engaged memes that I've put out there.
这是我发布的最受关注的模因之一。
I have also one of the urinals where the man-
我还有一个小便池，里面的人-
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
using the urinal and then like one comes over.
使用小便池然后就像有人过来一样。
A salesperson comes over.
一个销售人员走了过来。
"Would you like to chat about our-
“你想谈谈我们的——
Lenny: ...
莱尼：……
it's like 10 urinals and he's right next to yours.
就像 10 个小便池，而他就在你的旁边。
Elena Verna: Yeah, exactly, so the piece here that a lot of companies miss, unfortunately, is that they jam product-led sales into a traditional top-down sales playbook.
Elena Verna：是的，没错，不幸的是，很多公司都忽略了这一点，那就是他们将产品主导的销售塞进了传统的自上而下的销售策略中。
Now, what does that mean?
现在，这意味着什么？
In traditional top-down sales book, an MQL that you have or a lead that you gather already is in consideration cycles for your enterprise-level offering.
在传统的自上而下的销售手册中，您拥有的 MQL 或您已经收集的潜在客户正在考虑企业级产品的周期中。
However, in product-led sales, a new user that signs up, they know we're close to enterprise-level consideration.
然而，在以产品为主导的销售中，新用户注册时，他们知道我们已经接近企业级考虑。
They're just trying to complete an individual job to be done.
他们只是想完成一项需要完成的个人工作。
They're not solving a problem for their company.
他们没有为公司解决问题。
If you can imagine, it is like a very large funnel.
如果你能想象的话，它就像一个非常大的漏斗。
You start with just users looking for problem solve.
您从寻找问题解决方案的用户开始。
Then, you transition to awareness, consideration, and intent channels for team level problem.
然后，您过渡到团队级别问题的意识、考虑和意图渠道。
Then, you escalate for awareness, consideration, and intent channels for enterprise-level problem.
然后，您升级企业级问题的意识、考虑和意图渠道。
Elena Verna: Top-down sales process goes after the bottom of that funnel where there's already an intent to solve company-level problem versus at the very top is where product-led growth starts on individual-level problem.
Elena Verna：自上而下的销售流程是在漏斗的底部进行的，那里已经有解决公司层面问题的意图，而在最顶部则是产品主导的增长从个人层面的问题开始。
It's a different timeline.
这是一个不同的时间线。
If you go after individual user that just signs up for the account and you reach out to them 10 minutes later after sign-up asking, "What's your budget and are you ready to buy?", it's a complete mismatch of where they are in their consideration journey.
如果你追随刚刚注册帐户的个人用户，并在注册后 10 分钟后联系他们询问“你的预算是多少？你准备好购买了吗？”，这与他们的考虑旅程完全不匹配。
You cannot consider a new product sign-up an MQL in the traditional sense.
您不能将新产品注册视为传统意义上的 MQL。
They're just not there yet.
他们只是还没到那里。
They have a fraction of the enterprise problem that they're solving and they're not ready to buy.
他们只解决了一小部分企业问题，但还没有准备好购买。
Lenny: That's especially annoying because there's so many SaaS products now and everyone is coming for you, especially if you're at an awesome company that they're trying to sell, so got to be -
Lenny：这特别烦人，因为现在有这么多 SaaS 产品，每个人都在追捧你，特别是如果你在一家他们想要出售的很棒的公司，所以必须 -
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
anytime I even started...
任何时候我什至开始...
I remember I started at Amplitude when I started a year ago, it's like my inbox was just filled with like, "Now you're doing this, now you're doing this.
我记得一年前我刚开始在 Amplitude 工作时，我的收件箱里就充满了这样的内容：“现在你正在做这个，现在你正在做这个。
Buy, buy, buy." I mean, I don't know, I can't even notice anything in that outbound unless somebody reaches out to me with something authentic that is already usage- based, it's ignore.
买，买，买。”我的意思是，我不知道，我什至无法注意到出站中的任何东西，除非有人向我提供已经基于使用情况的真实内容，这是忽略的。
Lenny: It's going to get worse with GPT-oriented cold outbound emails.
Lenny：对于面向 GPT 的冷出站电子邮件，情况会变得更糟。
Oh my God.
天哪。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by rows.com.
莱尼：本集由 rows.com 为您带来。
The world runs on spreadsheets.
世界靠电子表格运转。
You probably have a tab open with a spreadsheet right now, but the spreadsheet product you're using today was designed decades ago and it shows.
您现在可能打开了一个包含电子表格的选项卡，但您今天使用的电子表格产品是几十年前设计的，并且它显示了这一点。
They live in silos away from your business data.
它们位于远离您的业务数据的孤岛中。
They weren't made to be used on a phone, and if you want to do even the simplest automation, you have to figure out complex scripts that are a nightmare to maintain.
它们不是为在手机上使用而设计的，如果您想做最简单的自动化，您就必须找出复杂的脚本，这对于维护来说是一场噩梦。
Rows is different.
行数不同。
It combines a modern spreadsheet editor, data integrations with APIs and your business tools, and a slick sharing experience that turns any spreadsheet into a beautiful interactive website that you'll be proud to share.
它结合了现代电子表格编辑器、与 API 和业务工具的数据集成，以及流畅的共享体验，可将任何电子表格变成美丽的交互式网站，您将自豪地分享。
If you're writing a report on a growth experiment, you can use Rows to do your analysis on data straight from Bitquery or Snowflake.
如果您正在编写有关增长实验的报告，则可以使用 Rows 直接对来自 Bitquery 或 Snowflake 的数据进行分析。
If you're deep diving on marketing, you can import reports straight from Google Analytics, Facebook Ads, or Twitter.
如果您深入研究营销，可以直接从 Google Analytics、Facebook 广告或 Twitter 导入报告。
Lenny: Or if you're working with sales, you can natively plug Stripe, Salesforce, or HubSpot directly into Rows.
Lenny：或者，如果您从事销售工作，您可以将 Stripe、Salesforce 或 HubSpot 直接插入到 Rows 中。
When you're done, you can share your work as a beautiful spreadsheet that's easy to read and embed charts, tables, and calculators into Notion, Confluence, or anywhere on the web.
完成后，您可以将您的工作作为易于阅读的精美电子表格进行共享，并将图表、表格和计算器嵌入到 Notion、Confluence 或网络上的任何位置。
I've already moved some of my favorite spreadsheet templates to Rows.
我已经将一些我最喜欢的电子表格模板移至 Rows。
Go to rows.com/lenny to check them out.
请访问 rows.com/lenny 查看它们。
That's rows.com/lenny.
这是 rows.com/lenny。
Lenny: Okay, so let's shift to actually, how do you actually do this?
莱尼：好吧，让我们谈谈实际上，你是如何做到这一点的？
How do you actually build a system of product-led sales?
如何真正构建以产品为主导的销售体系？
I feel like there's maybe three buckets.
我感觉可能有三桶。
There's, what data do you need?
还有，你需要什么数据？
What infrastructure systems do you need in place?
您需要哪些基础设施系统？
Then, what are the people you need in place and how do you resource it?
那么，您需要哪些人员以及如何为其提供资源？
Maybe let's start with the data.
也许让我们从数据开始。
What sort of data do you need in order to do this well?
为了做好这项工作，您需要什么样的数据？
Elena Verna: There's different levels of scale on how you should be attacking this problem.
Elena Verna：如何解决这个问题有不同的规模。
First of all, it starts with just top-down intuition.
首先，它是从自上而下的直觉开始的。
What are the signals that you're seeing around the accounts that are highly correlative to sales being very excited-
您在与销售高度相关的客户周围看到哪些信号非常令人兴奋 -
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
about this hand-raiser or about the sales form submit out of the usage?
关于此举手活动或关于使用情况下提交的销售表格？
You just start with that.
你就从那开始吧。
It's as simple as, how many of others are exhibiting those signals?
很简单，有多少人正在表现出这些信号？
When you have very low lead volume still, you don't want to get too complicated with it at the beginning.
当您的潜在客户数量仍然很低时，您不想一开始就搞得太复杂。
You want to be very transparent.
你想要非常透明。
You want to just understand what sales are seeing, what they get excited about, and feed them as many accounts that fit that model.
您只想了解销售人员看到了什么，他们对什么感到兴奋，并为他们提供尽可能多的适合该模型的帐户。
The one thing is not to do is just to start sending every single user to sales because that's the fastest way for sales to say, "This product channel is garbage and I don't ever want to see a lead from it again." They have such close rates and their quota, their salary depends on their ability to close that they just start disregarding this as a meaningful channel.
不应该做的一件事就是开始将每个用户发送给销售人员，因为这是销售人员说“这个产品渠道是垃圾，我不想再看到它的销售线索”的最快方式。他们的利率和配额如此接近，他们的薪水取决于他们的关闭能力，以至于他们开始忽视这是一个有意义的渠道。
Elena Verna: Now, the second escalation to it is, okay, now you will know intuition, but now let's actually look at the reality of who is hand-raising in the product.
Elena Verna：现在，第二次升级是，好吧，现在你会知道直觉，但现在让我们实际看看谁在产品中举手。
You look at the signal of who looks like a hand-raiser, smells like a hand-raiser, acts like a hand-raiser, but is not hand-raising.
你看一下谁看起来像举手者、闻起来像举手者、行为像举手者但没有举手的信号。
That's a maybe very simple regression model.
这可能是一个非常简单的回归模型。
It might be just a simple histogram analysis that you do of what differentiates people that are hand-raising from people that are not hand-raising and who else fits into criteria and looks like a hand-raiser based on those differences.
这可能只是一个简单的直方图分析，您可以根据这些差异来区分举手的人和不举手的人，以及其他符合标准并且看起来像举手者的人。
Elena Verna: That should be your first PQA model.
Elena Verna：这应该是您的第一个 PQA 模型。
It should be very simple.
应该很简单。
It should just be if you can run a linear regression against some of the top coefficient that you notice so you know which has the biggest weight to predictability and you go with that.
如果您可以对您注意到的一些顶级系数进行线性回归，那么您就知道哪个对可预测性的权重最大，并且您可以采用它。
The main piece here is to involve sales very early on so you're partnering with them.
这里的主要部分是尽早参与销售，以便您与他们合作。
You are not just dumping it on them and that you have a very strong feedback cycles from sales or whether what you've identified is correct or not correct because PQA definitions should not be static.
您不只是将其倾销给他们，并且您有来自销售的非常强大的反馈周期，或者您所确定的内容是否正确，因为 PQA 定义不应该是静态的。
They're constantly evolving.
它们在不断发展。
Just because it's right right now, that doesn't mean it's going to be right next quarter, so you have to have a lot of rituals with sales team to gather that feedback.
仅仅因为现在是正确的，并不意味着下个季度也是正确的，因此您必须与销售团队进行大量的仪式来收集反馈。
Lenny: One thing I'll mention is Amplitude and Mixpanel both have a regression tool that help you identify correlations and causal kind of connections between metrics, so maybe shout-out there.
Lenny：我要提到的一件事是 Amplitude 和 Mixpanel 都有一个回归工具，可以帮助您识别指标之间的相关性和因果关系，所以也许可以大声疾呼。
I think it's called Compass-
我想它叫指南针-
Lenny: ...
莱尼：……
and then Mixpanel's I think is called Signal.
然后 Mixpanel 的我认为叫做 Signal。
Elena Verna: Yep.
埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。
Honestly, to be fair, most of the time I've done it manually at first because it requires so much understanding of the data, and if the data is correct and if I'm even seeing because you don't want to throw in too many co-related variables into the model because then you have issues of those variables like describing themselves, so to speak.
老实说，公平地说，大多数时候我一开始都是手动完成的，因为它需要对数据有太多的理解，并且数据是否正确，如果我什至看到，因为你不想在模型中放入太多相关的变量，因为这样你就会遇到这些变量的问题，比如描述它们自己，可以这么说。
Even if they're firing, there might not be actual predictive.
即使他们开火了，也可能没有实际的预测。
It's partnership with analytics team and it's partnership with the intuition from the sales team.
它是与分析团队的合作，也是与销售团队的直觉的合作。
Then, you can start throwing it into a regression model and start to automate and think about scaling it, which there is a lot of PLS platforms that are coming up and finding their product-market fit at the moment that can do that for you.
然后，您可以开始将其放入回归模型中，并开始自动化并考虑扩展它，有很多 PLS 平台正在出现，并且目前正在寻找适合您的产品市场，可以为您做到这一点。
Elena Verna: I don't know if I would start there right from the beginning unless you actually understand the data because buying a platform will not bridge the gap for you understanding what actually matters in your data.
Elena Verna：我不知道是否会从头开始，除非您真正了解数据，因为购买平台并不能弥合您了解数据中真正重要的内容的差距。
Buying a platform or using a third-party solution will help you scale your efforts once you hit the first first, let's say, data sales fit that you can then scale and disincrease distribution of.
一旦你达到第一个目标，购买一个平台或使用第三方解决方案将帮助你扩大你的努力，比如说，数据销售适合你，然后你可以扩大和减少分配。
Lenny: Data sales fit.
Lenny：数据销售适合。
Wow, that's a new term.
哇，这是一个新术语。
There we go.
我们开始吧。
I have not heard that before.
我以前没听说过。
Data sales fit.
数据销售契合。
I love it, so you're saying basically start manually to make sure you fully understand what's going on?
我喜欢它，所以你是说基本上手动启动以确保你完全理解发生了什么？
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
just...
只是...
I don't...
我不...
I have a hard time scaling something that I don't fully understand because data can tell you lies and you can just fit any story that you want into data.
我很难扩展一些我不完全理解的东西，因为数据可以告诉你谎言，你可以将任何你想要的故事放入数据中。
I need to really understand it and how it fits and what you are observing and that it makes sense before you go and start using automation on it.
在你开始使用自动化之前，我需要真正理解它、它如何适合以及你正在观察什么，并且它是有意义的。
Lenny: Cool.
莱尼：酷。
Okay, and then just one last question on what you were just talking about, which is finding correlations and causal relationships between usage and users and understanding who to send to sales.
好的，然后是关于您刚才谈论的内容的最后一个问题，即找到使用情况和用户之间的相关性和因果关系，并了解将谁发送给销售人员。
What are some common metrics and attributes that you've found that are indicative of they should go to sales?
您发现哪些常见指标和属性表明它们应该用于销售？
Elena Verna: One of the most important things is to create network effects within the company, within a team, which each additional team member added to an account benefits from everybody else.
Elena Verna：最重要的事情之一是在公司内部、团队内部创造网络效应，添加到帐户中的每个额外团队成员都会从其他人那里受益。
This does not mean you have to have platform network effects.
这并不意味着您必须具有平台网络效应。
You're not trying to be LinkedIn.
你并不是想成为 LinkedIn。
You're not trying to be Instagram.
你并不是想成为 Instagram。
Those are platform network effects.
这些就是平台网络效应。
What you are trying to create is the value of each additional user into account.
您试图创造的是考虑到每个额外用户的价值。
What that means, I'm going to go through slight deviation here is that there should not be only pulling mechanism where I pull you into my account.
这意味着，我在这里要经历一个轻微的偏差，那就是不应该只有拉动机制将你拉入我的账户。
There also should be pushing mechanism.
还应有推动机构。
Any new sign-up that happens from the company that already has an account in my system should be presented with an option to join that account, not just create a brand new account.
在我的系统中已有帐户的公司进行的任何新注册都应该提供加入该帐户的选项，而不仅仅是创建一个全新的帐户。
Elena Verna: What you don't want to create is hundreds of rogue individual accounts that don't know about each other.
Elena Verna：您不想创建数百个彼此不了解的流氓个人帐户。
We as humans, we are creatures of community, we're creatures of we like to be surrounded by people, to be validated by people, and at least you want to create that herd mentality inside of the company and push and pull people into the account.
作为人类，我们是社区的生物，我们喜欢被人们包围，被人们认可，至少你想在公司内部创造一种从众心态，推动和拉动人们加入其中。
One of the biggest PQAs is number of users in the company using your product.
最大的 PQA 之一是公司中使用您产品的用户数量。
By the way, the magic number is usually seven.
顺便说一句，神奇的数字通常是七。
The more time you have seven or more users in the company and there's like some weird parallel here to seven friends at Facebook and seven collections at LinkedIn, but seven I've seen very often as a check mark.
公司里有七个或更多用户的时间越多，这就像 Facebook 上的七个朋友和 LinkedIn 上的七个收藏集有一些奇怪的相似之处，但我经常将七个视为复选标记。
"Hey, there's enough value here distributed across multiple people inside the company that there might be an enterprise conversation to be had."
“嘿，这里有足够的价值分布在公司内部的多个人身上，因此可能需要进行企业对话。”
Elena Verna: The second-most important is usually some sort of volume threshold.
Elena Verna：第二重要的通常是某种音量阈值。
For example, for Amplitude, it's number of events that you're sending through, which means that you are really starting to tackle your entire application with analytics as opposed to just a small portion.
例如，对于 Amplitude，它是您发送的事件数量，这意味着您真正开始通过分析来处理整个应用程序，而不是仅仅处理一小部分。
Or with Miro, it was number of boards that you have in the account.
或者对于 Miro，它是您帐户中拥有的董事会数量。
With Figma, I think it's number of revisions that you have on any given design.
对于 Figma，我认为这是对任何给定设计的修改次数。
The last one I would say is velocity.
我要说的最后一个是速度。
Velocity is the trickiest one just because we don't have a very easy way to measure velocity in our transactional data, but it's actually one of the most powerful one that triggers the right timing for the involvement because the change in velocity either number of users being added or events being sent or storage that is being utilized is usually a fantastic predictor.
速度是最棘手的，因为我们没有一种非常简单的方法来测量交易数据的速度，但它实际上是最强大的方法之一，可以触发正确的参与时机，因为速度的变化（添加的用户数量或发送的事件或正在使用的存储）通常是一个极好的预测指标。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Okay, so kind of like the simplest model to tell you there's a peak-y way is number of users usage and velocity.
好的，就像最简单的模型一样，告诉您有一个峰值方式是用户使用数量和速度。
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
and users, by the way, can be either usage of velocity metric, too.
顺便说一句，用户也可以使用速度度量。
It's just like if you're going to do anything, just look at whichever accounts have most users.
这就像如果您要做任何事情，只需查看拥有最多用户的帐户即可。
It's like an 80-20 rule.
这就像 80-20 规则。
For 20% of the efforts, you're probably going to get 80% of the value.
20% 的努力，您可能会获得 80% 的价值。
Lenny: Love it.
莱尼：喜欢。
Okay, so I took us off track and you were talking about what data you may need in place.
好吧，我让我们偏离了轨道，你正在谈论你可能需要哪些数据。
Is there anything else along those lines?
还有其他类似的事情吗？
Elena Verna: I would say that it's very important to identify behavioral signals as well, and I'll give an example.
Elena Verna：我想说识别行为信号也非常重要，我会举一个例子。
At Miro, we had a very strong behavioral signal that if there is an admin switch in the account, some sort of evaluation is happening.
在 Miro，我们有一个非常强烈的行为信号，即如果帐户中有管理员切换，就会发生某种评估。
Admin transfer, new admin being assigned, that should be ding, ding, ding, all of the bells are ringing that you should maybe reach out to that person and see what's going on.
管理员转移，分配新管理员，应该是叮，叮，叮，所有的铃声都在响，你也许应该联系那个人，看看发生了什么。
The other one that is fascinating is your terms of use pages, your privacy and policy.
另一件令人着迷的事情是您的使用条款页面、您的隐私和政策。
Nobody cares about it unless they're considering enterprise deal.
没有人关心它，除非他们正在考虑企业交易。
If you see anybody from account land on your terms of use pages, reach out to that person.
如果您看到帐户中的任何人登陆您的使用条款页面，请联系该人。
More likely than not, you have a buyer on the hook and you can assist them in increasing their perceived value.
更有可能的是，您有一个买家，您可以帮助他们提高他们的感知价值。
Lenny: Wow, that is so interesting.
莱尼：哇，那太有趣了。
That's the kind of stuff you only learn having done it.
这就是你只有做过之后才能学到的东西。
Elena Verna: Many, many times, yes, but those-
Elena Verna：很多很多次，是的，但是那些-
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
signals are, by the way, universal.
顺便说一句，信号是通用的。
We looked at it at MongoDB, it was very much true, so these things of when you...
我们在 MongoDB 上进行了研究，这是非常正确的，所以当你......
What in product constitutes evaluation process?
产品评估过程由哪些内容组成？
What are the enterprise buyers are looking for?
企业买家在寻找什么？
I wouldn't say, by the way, watching a webinar or landing on an enterprise landing page is a good behavioral signal because it might be annoying that I just like on accident landed on a landing page and now I'm being spammed by outbound SDR sequence.
顺便说一句，我不会说观看网络研讨会或登陆企业登陆页面是一个很好的行为信号，因为我只是喜欢意外登陆登陆页面，而现在我正受到出站 SDR 序列的垃圾邮件，这可能会很烦人。
More meaningful actions that are deeper with an engagement user journey are incredible predictors.
在参与用户旅程中更深入的更有意义的行动是令人难以置信的预测因素。
Lenny: You talked again about this idea of spamming from sales and it made me think about like...
莱尼：你又谈到了销售垃圾邮件的想法，这让我想到......
I don't even know if I want to ask this, but have you seen downside to sales just continuing to hammer you as a potential user?
我什至不知道我是否想问这个问题，但您是否看到了销售的负面影响继续打击您作为潜在用户？
Does that actually hurt?
这真的很痛吗？
I don't want to know almost because I feel like the answer is no, but what do you think?
我几乎不想知道，因为我觉得答案是否定的，但你觉得呢？
Elena Verna: I think you have to look at the channel effectiveness.
Elena Verna：我认为你必须看看渠道的有效性。
You have only so many channels to communicate with a customer.
您与客户沟通的渠道只有这么多。
Email is obvious.
电子邮件是显而易见的。
You can communicate with them in app.
您可以在应用程序中与他们交流。
You can have some sort of chatbot.
你可以拥有某种聊天机器人。
Maybe you can deploy some sort of paid marketing, maybe social or retargeting display ads, but those are very expensive to utilize.
也许您可以部署某种付费营销，可能是社交广告或重定向展示广告，但这些广告的使用成本非常昂贵。
Stepping back and thinking when it's the right time to reach out.
退一步思考什么时候是伸出援手的正确时机。
How can I grab their attention?
我怎样才能吸引他们的注意力？
If you highly saturated the channel that is your primary for reaching out to the user, they're not going to react even if it's more of a right time for them to react.
如果您的主要接触用户的渠道高度饱和，那么即使现在是他们做出反应的正确时机，他们也不会做出反应。
Elena Verna: Will it hurt you?
埃琳娜·维尔娜：它会伤害你吗？
I don't think you'll notice it right away, but over time I think people become blind to channel communication if it's not applicable to them because, "Fool me once, shame on you." Like, "Fine, you tricked me to opening this email." Fool me twice, it's shame on me and I'll be a lot more frugal of which emails I open or which notifications I react to.
我不认为你会立即注意到它，但随着时间的推移，我认为如果渠道沟通不适用于他们，人们就会变得盲目，因为“愚弄我一次，让你感到羞耻。”就像，“好吧，你骗我打开这封电子邮件。”骗我两次，这对我来说是耻辱，我会更加节俭我打开哪些电子邮件或对哪些通知做出反应。
I think that you have to put user journey first and you have to really think about the timing that it's right for user and PQA.
我认为你必须把用户旅程放在第一位，并且必须真正考虑适合用户和 PQA 的时机。
Elena Verna: All it is is the right time to engage with the customer and then go hit them hard over all of the channels of communication, but then, also know that accounts go in and out out of PQA.
Elena Verna：一切都是在正确的时机与客户互动，然后通过所有沟通渠道对他们进行严厉打击，但同时也要知道帐户进出 PQA。
Today I might be in the PQA, next week I might not be, so you need to sunset the efforts if you didn't get in touch with the customer and wait for the next PQA moment.
今天我可能会参加 PQA，下周可能不会，所以如果您没有与客户取得联系，则需要停止工作并等待下一个 PQA 时刻。
It will happen if your product is holding that goal and is accountable for getting more and more accounts to reach a threshold PQA.
如果您的产品坚持该目标并负责让越来越多的帐户达到 PQA 阈值，那么这种情况就会发生。
Lenny: Wow, that's really interesting.
莱尼：哇，这真的很有趣。
I'm also happy to hear that answer.
我也很高兴听到这个答案。
Great.
伟大的。
Okay, so let's continue down this track of what it takes to implement a product-led sales motion.
好的，让我们继续探讨如何实施以产品为主导的销售行动。
Just talked about the data component.
刚刚谈到了数据组件。
What about just systems and infrastructure and tooling?
如果只是系统、基础设施和工具呢？
What do you recommend there as a start?
您建议从哪里开始？
Elena Verna: I approach the subject always as an evolution, not a revolution, so start with your existing systems as much as possible.
Elena Verna：我始终将这个主题视为一种演变，而不是一场革命，因此请尽可能从现有系统开始。
I would say the biggest mistakes to avoid if your sales team is very heavily embedded into Salesforce, don't try to have them switch to a different solution.
我想说，如果您的销售团队非常深入地融入 Salesforce，那么要避免的最大错误是，不要试图让他们切换到不同的解决方案。
It's just not going to work.
这是行不通的。
You need to try to figure out how to embed what you need the data into Salesforce, not get them to use some other third-party tool.
您需要尝试弄清楚如何将您需要的数据嵌入到 Salesforce 中，而不是让他们使用其他第三方工具。
Then, I wouldn't jump into any big commitments until I really prove out viability of product-led sales motion before automating any of it.
然后，在我真正证明以产品为主导的销售活动的可行性之前，我不会做出任何重大承诺，然后再将其自动化。
I'm more of kind of Wizard of Oz it as fast as much as possible to get the initial traction so then we can validate that there is investment to be had in scaling it and there's a business value in it.
我更像是绿野仙踪，尽可能快地获得最初的吸引力，这样我们就可以验证是否需要投资来扩展它，并且其中存在商业价值。
Lenny: The tools you're using at that point, is it like Google Sheets?
Lenny：您当时使用的工具是不是像 Google Sheets？
Or is there something else involved in -
或者还有其他的事情涉及——
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
Google Sheets, it's your Looker, Tableau dashboards, it's your Amplitude charts and reports.
Google Sheets，它是您的 Looker、Tableau 仪表板，它是您的 Amplitude 图表和报告。
It can be widgets within Salesforce or ETLs that you pipe through HubSpot and Marketos into Salesforce, or it can be CRM solutions for PLG specifically that you literally deliver in Excel sheets to sales team to prototype a different outreach.
它可以是 Salesforce 或 ETL 中的小部件，您通过 HubSpot 和 Marketos 输送到 Salesforce 中，也可以是专门针对 PLG 的 CRM 解决方案，您可以通过 Excel 表格将其交付给销售团队，以构建不同外展的原型。
Lenny: Have you shared any of this kind of like MVP product-led sales stack that you recommend?
Lenny：您是否分享过您推荐的类似 MVP 产品主导的销售堆栈？
If not, I think you should because that seems pretty useful.
如果没有，我认为你应该这样做，因为这看起来非常有用。
Elena Verna: Yeah, I think I definitely should.
Elena Verna：是的，我想我绝对应该这样做。
Elena Verna: I have my idea for a next blog post.
Elena Verna：我对下一篇博文有自己的想法。
Done.
完毕。
Lenny: There we go.
莱尼：我们开始吧。
Okay.
好的。
If we got anything out of this chat, we've got that.
如果我们从这次谈话中得到了什么，我们就得到了。
Okay, in terms of people, so we talked about data, we talked about tooling, infrastructure, what do you suggest in terms of people and resources to invest in this area as a start, and then also as you evolve?
好的，就人员而言，我们讨论了数据、工具、基础设施，您对在该领域投资的人员和资源有何建议，作为开始，然后随着您的发展？
Elena Verna: For PLS, the people that you need is product managers that will be able to get account to PQA stage.
Elena Verna：对于 PLS，您需要的人是能够参与 PQA 阶段的产品经理。
You will need salespeople that will understand which usage triggered PQA and how to apply that information to find a buyer and to enable a buyer to convert them to an opportunity.
您需要销售人员了解哪些使用情况触发了 PQA，以及如何应用该信息来寻找买家并使买家将其转化为机会。
You need marketing to educate both the end user or enterprise buyer on why the value of this enterprise solution is going to make sense to you, and you need analytics team.
您需要营销来教育最终用户或企业买家为什么该企业解决方案的价值对您有意义，并且您需要分析团队。
You need a data analyst that will continuously dig in the data to find correlative signals that you can test causation in.
您需要一位数据分析师来不断挖掘数据以找到可以测试因果关系的相关信号。
Those are the four people that you need, product, analytics, marketing, sale.
这就是你需要的四个人：产品、分析、营销、销售。
I should say engineering, too, obviously, but I'm kind of bundling them together with product,
显然，我也应该说工程，但我有点将它们与产品捆绑在一起，
Elena Verna: Now, it's an evolution, not a revolution, so if you're starting from sales-led growth, I would highly suggest of you going to a sales team and asking for somebody to run a pilot with you.
Elena Verna：现在，这是一种演变，而不是一场革命，所以如果您从销售主导的增长开始，我强烈建议您去销售团队并要求有人与您一起进行试点。
Don't just throw these leads into the top-down sales process and assume that everything is going to be just fine.
不要只是将这些线索放入自上而下的销售流程中，并假设一切都会好起来。
Attach to yourself a pilot AE, so account executive, or an SDR and see how that works.
给自己附加一个试点 AE（即客户经理）或 SDR，看看它是如何工作的。
You kind of separate yourself from the mothership of the sales engine and you actually prototype this separately in a little bit of a vacuum, not under pressure of them top-down quota relief.
你可以将自己与销售引擎的母舰分开，并且实际上在一点真空中单独进行原型设计，而不是在他们自上而下的配额减免的压力下。
If you in a product-led growth company, then I would suggest do your own sales.
如果您在一家以产品为主导的成长型公司，那么我建议您自己做销售。
It's kind of like a founder-led growth, so think about it like, "Hey, you need to close maybe first couple of deals you sell first so you truly understand what's happening," and would not get first hand-raisers and say, "Oh, we can't close it unless we have a salesperson."
这有点像创始人主导的增长，所以想一想，“嘿，你可能需要先完成你销售的前几笔交易，这样你才能真正了解正在发生的事情”，并且不会得到第一手举手说，“哦，除非我们有销售人员，否则我们无法完成它。”
Elena Verna: No, just have somebody support to do it.
Elena Verna：不，只要有人支持就可以了。
Have somebody on finance do it.
请财务人员来做这件事。
You do it.
你做吧。
I've been on chat myself plenty of times trying to close the deals just to understand what's the sales process for the customers looks like.
我自己也曾多次尝试完成交易，只是为了了解客户的销售流程是什么样的。
Then, you can figure out who to actually hire and who to actually scale, but for PLS that starts in PLG, you actually just start with more of blend of an SZR and AE together because you don't need two separations.
然后，您可以确定实际雇用谁以及实际扩展谁，但对于从 PLG 开始的 PLS，您实际上只是从 SZR 和 AE 的更多混合开始，因为您不需要两次分离。
The same person can both outbound to a customer and close them at the same time, and then you can go into specialization of the role.
同一个人可以同时向客户出站并关闭客户，然后您就可以进行角色的专业化。
Start small, start nimble, prove it out, scale along the way, but have marketing and analytics support you the entire journey.
从小处开始，灵活开始，证明这一点，一路扩展，但让营销和分析在整个旅程中为您提供支持。
Lenny: That is really simple.
莱尼：这真的很简单。
What I'm hearing is you don't need to hire someone new necessarily.
我听到的是你不一定需要雇用新人。
You have the resources most likely, and then it's just, how do you allot some time of this team to start investing and violating?
你最有可能拥有资源，然后就是，你如何分配这个团队的一些时间来开始投资和违规？
Elena Verna: Yeah, I'd say that my philosophy is that I want to have an ROI for a new hire before putting a job rec out there, and to create an ROI, I need to prove it out of what potential can there be myself first.
Elena Verna：是的，我想说的是，我的理念是，在发布工作推荐之前，我希望为新员工带来投资回报率，为了创造投资回报率，我需要首先证明我自己有什么潜力。
I can almost like fund this hire with the revenue that we can generate out of this channel originally.
我几乎可以用我们最初从这个渠道产生的收入来资助这次招聘。
Obviously that includes a lot of individual contributor work that you have to do in the area potentially that is not comfortable, but that's the fastest way to grow in your career, so I think that's a necessary step for a successful execution.
显然，这包括您必须在可能不舒服的领域完成的许多个人贡献者工作，但这是您职业生涯成长的最快方式，因此我认为这是成功执行的必要步骤。
Lenny: You want to hear a crazy stat about product-led growth and not hiring sales?
莱尼：你想听一个关于产品主导型增长而不是招聘销售人员的疯狂统计数据吗？
Lenny: Okay, great.
莱尼：好的，太好了。
I was chatting with the founder of Notion for the series I'm working on and Notion didn't hire their first salesperson until they were past 10 million ARR.
我正在与 Notion 的创始人讨论我正在开发的系列，Notion 直到他们的 ARR 超过 1000 万才雇用他们的第一位销售人员。
Elena Verna: I believe it.
埃琳娜·维尔娜：我相信。
Miro did not hire their first salesperson until they were like 5 or 7 million in ARR.
直到 ARR 达到 5 或 700 万左右时，Miro 才聘请了第一个销售人员。
They were literally closing the contracts through support team and it was just fine.
他们确实通过支持团队完成了合同，一切都很好。
Lenny: Same with Notion, it was their customer success and support team.
Lenny：与 Notion 一样，是他们的客户成功和支持团队。
Lenny: That is some product-led growth right there.
莱尼：这是一些以产品为主导的增长。
Lenny: I love it.
莱尼：我喜欢。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Okay, so we've talked about data, tooling, people.
好的，我们已经讨论了数据、工具和人员。
Is there anything else that you find is really important to being successful with rolling out a product-led sales bridge motion?
您认为还有什么对于成功推出以产品为主导的销售桥梁动议真正重要吗？
Elena Verna: The most important thing in product-led sales is that there is a different configuration internally of collaboration that needs to occur.
Elena Verna：在以产品为主导的销售中，最重要的是需要在内部进行不同的协作配置。
In traditional sales world, marketing creates pipeline for sales.
在传统的销售领域，营销为销售创造了渠道。
Sales sells product.
销售销售产品。
Product engages with a paid user to drive retention.
产品与付费用户互动以提高保留率。
In the product-led sales, product acquires and activates a customer and product creates pipeline for sales.
在产品主导的销售中，产品获取并激活客户，产品创建销售渠道。
Relationship is not that there's a go-to-market org with marketing and sales, and product just kind of throws features across the fence for them to sell.
关系并不是指有一个负责市场营销和销售的进入市场组织，而产品只是将功能抛到了栅栏上让他们销售。
Elena Verna: The collaboration here is between product and sales, but that means the product has to take on accountability over pipeline.
Elena Verna：这里的合作是产品和销售之间的合作，但这意味着产品必须承担管道的责任。
The worst thing that you can do is to say, "I'm going to do product-led growth," or, "I'm going to do product-led sales and I'm going to do it in marketing." Recipe for disaster.
你能做的最糟糕的事情就是说，“我将进行产品主导的增长”，或者，“我将进行产品主导的销售，并且我将在营销中做到这一点。”灾难的秘诀。
You'll be failure mode within six months because product has to take accountability over selling of the product itself.
你将在六个月内陷入失败模式，因为产品必须对产品本身的销售承担责任。
That is not to be taken lightly because so many product teams are deeply, deeply uncomfortable with owning monetization targets.
这不能掉以轻心，因为许多产品团队对自己的盈利目标感到非常非常不舒服。
Now, I'm not saying that product should just be gold and revenue because that's a very short-term short outcome past performance.
现在，我并不是说产品应该只是黄金和收入，因为这是过去表现的非常短期的短期结果。
There has to be a very clear designation onto long-term goals and long-term objectives and revenue ownership.
必须对长期目标、长期目标和收入所有权有非常明确的指定。
Elena Verna: By revenue ownership, I don't mean that individual product manager also should have a revenue target on their back.
Elena Verna：说到收入所有权，我并不是说单个产品经理也应该有一个收入目标。
What I mean is that the product leadership should be accountable for the revenue target, but the product people should be responsible for more of KPIs, free to paid conversion rate, package mix, PQA, maybe even PQLs, but those are all of the KPIs into revenue.
我的意思是，产品领导层应该对收入目标负责，但产品人员应该对更多的 KPI 负责，从免费到付费的转化率、套餐组合、PQA，甚至 PQL，但这些都是收入的 KPI。
The piece to me that is of utmost importance is to keep product accountable.
对我来说最重要的是让产品负责。
You cannot start this product-led stales motion in marketing and sales and think that it can continue with the same configuration inside the company and still succeed.
你不能在营销和销售中启动这种以产品为主导的陈旧运动，并认为它可以在公司内部以相同的配置继续下去并仍然取得成功。
Product has to have a seat at the table and product has to feel accountable and responsible for it.
产品必须在谈判桌上占有一席之地，产品必须感到有责任和责任。
Lenny: When you say accountable, what does that actually look like?
莱尼：当你说负责任时，它实际上是什么样的？
Is it like their OKRs have certain goals around, "Here's how many PQAs you're driving?" Is it a number?
他们的 OKR 是否有特定的目标，“这是您正在推动的 PQA 数量？”是一个数字吗？
What does accountable mean in this-
责任在这意味着什么——
Elena Verna: I think so.
埃琳娜·维尔纳：我想是的。
Every product has some sort of goals and they definitely should have goals on keeping healthy, engaged user base.
每个产品都有某种目标，而且它们绝对应该有保持健康、活跃的用户群的目标。
They should definitely have goals in terms of maybe feature utilization or customer satisfaction, but what I'm saying is to have also some sort of monetization goals.
他们肯定应该在功能利用率或客户满意度方面有目标，但我想说的是也有某种货币化目标。
What that is for each company, I think, differs depending on their level of comfort and how close they are to revenue capture mechanism.
我认为，这对每家公司来说都是不同的，具体取决于他们的舒适程度以及他们与收入获取机制的接近程度。
Let's say at Miro, our head of growth product had a self-serve revenue target on her back.
假设在 Miro，我们的增长产品主管有一个自助收入目标。
She drove it.
她驾驶着它。
She had revenue goal that she had to hit in product and she shared marketing because I ran marketing in that company.
她有必须在产品中实现的收入目标，并且她分享营销，因为我在那家公司负责营销。
We shared a pipeline goal creation because pipeline cannot be created without marketing, too.
我们共享了管道目标创建，因为没有营销也无法创建管道。
Elena Verna: Marketing will need to educate.
Elena Verna：营销需要教育。
Marketing will need to find the buyer.
营销需要找到买家。
Marketing will need to do accounts-based marketing in order to attract the buyer and connect it with the usage.
营销需要进行基于帐户的营销，以吸引买家并将其与使用情况联系起来。
Product and marketing now pull together to create the pipeline and give it to sales, but product can no longer sit on this island as a feature factory.
产品和营销现在齐心协力创建管道并将其提供给销售，但产品不能再作为功能工厂坐在这个岛上。
It only works with the top-down sales organizations, which, as I said, I think are going to be heavily disrupted over the next 10 years with value-first product-led growth.
它只适用于自上而下的销售组织，正如我所说，我认为这些组织将在未来 10 年内因价值优先的产品主导型增长而受到严重颠覆。
Lenny: This is another hilarious meme that you shared on your LinkedIn, so another reminder, go check out Elena's LinkedIn with this hilarious meme of product teams being presented, "Hey, you're going to own some revenue targets." They're like, "Oh no." Yeah, exactly.
莱尼：这是你在 LinkedIn 上分享的另一个搞笑模因，所以再次提醒一下，去看看埃琳娜的 LinkedIn，其中展示了这个产品团队的搞笑模因，“嘿，你将拥有一些收入目标。”他们就像，“哦，不。”是的，完全正确。
Elena Verna: It's actually super interesting because a lot of growth leaders shy away from revenue targets.
Elena Verna：这实际上非常有趣，因为许多增长领导者都回避收入目标。
Acquisition target, sure.
当然是收购目标。
Retention target, engagement target, sure, but monetary target, "Oh no. How can I possibly own a revenue target?" I think we all in tech, and I specifically point a finger at my industry in B2B industry, just got a little bit complacent with revenue ownership from product side.
当然，保留目标、参与度目标，但是货币目标，“哦不。我怎么可能拥有收入目标？”我认为我们都从事科技行业，特别是 B2B 行业，我们只是对产品方面的收入所有权感到有点自满。
I do think it's catastrophic for us in the long term if we don't fix it.
我确实认为，从长远来看，如果我们不解决这个问题，这对我们来说将是灾难性的。
Lenny: I love it.
莱尼：我喜欢。
I want to do a whole podcast on your meme strategy and your parodies that you put out, but we'll stay on track here.
我想做一个关于你的模因策略和你发布的模仿的完整播客，但我们会在这里保持正轨。
In terms of the revenue target, what is that goal like?
就收入目标而言，这个目标是什么样的？
Is it just in this quarter X million dollars of revenue?
仅仅是本季度X百万美元的收入吗？
Is it a growth rate from quarter over quarter?
是环比增长率吗？
How do you find people actually define that revenue target?
您发现人们如何真正定义收入目标？
Elena Verna: Right, so there's different targets that you would have for self-serve revenue versus product-led sales revenue.
Elena Verna：是的，自助服务收入与产品主导的销售收入有不同的目标。
For self-serve revenue, your KPIs should absolutely be free to paid conversion rates or trial to paid conversion rate.
对于自助服务收入，您的 KPI 绝对应该是免费到付费的转化率或试用到付费的转化率。
It's the package mix, it's the average revenue per user or ARPU.
这是套餐组合，是每个用户的平均收入或 ARPU。
It may be retention rates, first-term retention rate, second-term retention rate in order for you to sustain the healthy revenue.
它可能是保留率、第一期保留率、第二期保留率，以便您维持健康的收入。
That's what outputs self-serve revenue.
这就是自助服务收入的产出。
Those should be the pieces.
这些应该是碎片。
Do I have a problem in friction and acquiring new paid user in maximizing their value or in retaining that paid user?
我在摩擦和获取新付费用户以最大化其价值或留住该付费用户方面是否存在问题？
Those are the three inputs that go into self-serve ARR targets, and you should just understand where the biggest opportunity for your team to focus on driving it.
这些是自助 ARR 目标的三个输入，您应该了解您的团队专注于推动实现目标的最大机会在哪里。
Elena Verna: In any of those cases, most of the time free to pay conversion is the biggest focus of any given team just because we want to better convert and inflow into our user base, assuming we have good product-market fit so we have a solid retention happening.
Elena Verna：在任何一种情况下，大多数时候免费到付费的转化是任何特定团队的最大关注点，因为我们希望更好地转化并流入我们的用户群，假设我们有良好的产品市场契合度，因此我们有稳固的保留率。
In free to pay conversion, there's three pillars that you constantly need to work on, and one pillar dominates them all.
在免费到付费的转换中，您需要不断努力解决三个支柱，并且其中一个支柱主导所有支柱。
It's monetization awareness.
这是货币化意识。
Simple as that.
就这么简单。
If you have a freemium product, I guarantee you 75% of your customers in freemium product are not aware of what you're selling.
如果您有免费增值产品，我向您保证 75% 的免费增值产品客户不知道您在销售什么。
Only focusing on monetization awareness can give you incredible output on driving monetization, and it's really it's product's ability to communicate via feature walls, via usage walls, via trials, or what the value of the paid offering is.
只有关注货币化意识才能为您带来令人难以置信的推动货币化的产出，而这实际上是产品通过功能墙、使用墙、试用或付费产品的价值进行沟通的能力。
Elena Verna: I've heard stories from Slack of just showing message limits and how big of an improvement on conversion rate it had.
Elena Verna：我听过 Slack 的故事，讲述了仅显示消息限制以及它对转化率的改进有多大。
I've had it firsthand at SurveyMonkey where just adding consistent EUI across all of the paid triggers that were that Amazon gold color and making sure that each user has been able to see at least three of them.
我在 SurveyMonkey 上亲身体验过，只需在所有亚马逊金色的付费触发器中添加一致的 EUI，并确保每个用户能够看到至少其中的三个。
There's a rule of three that goes into advertising that we need to see things three times in order to remember them that drove monetization awareness and conversion rate up, but that's basically consumers 80% of your work.
广告中有一条“三法则”，即我们需要看三遍才能记住它们，从而提高盈利意识和转化率，但这基本上是消费者 80% 的工作。
The second one is just conversion rate optimization, so your pricing page optimization, your checkout page optimization, your currencies that you offer, the payment methods that you offer to make sure that there's as little friction as possible in order to actually pay.
第二个只是转化率优化，因此您的定价页面优化、结账页面优化、您提供的货币、您提供的付款方式，以确保实际付款时的摩擦尽可能小。
Elena Verna: Then, the last one is what you're selling, do people want to buy?
Elena Verna：那么，最后一件就是你卖的东西，人们想买吗？
This is where you actually go after monetization model change.
这就是盈利模式改变后您实际要去的地方。
Which features are in each plan?
每个计划都有哪些功能？
What are the price points in each plan?
每个计划的价格点是多少？
How did the upgrade path look like?
升级路径是怎样的？
Do you have add-on strategy?
您有附加策略吗？
DO you have just pay-to-pay fee monetization plan strategy?
您是否有付费付费货币化计划策略？
That one is like the last one that you should cross because it involves a lot of cross-functional effort and decision-making, but free to paid conversion, upsell potential, and retention.
这就像你应该跨越的最后一个，因为它涉及大量的跨职能工作和决策，但免费到付费转换、追加销售潜力和保留率。
That's for self-serve AR.
那是自助 AR。
For product-led sales, what product should own is PQA, but who defines PQA?
以产品为主导的销售，什么产品应该拥有PQA，但是谁来定义PQA呢？
That's the big question.
这是个大问题。
Elena Verna: Who iterates on PQA?
Elena Verna：谁迭代 PQA？
Then, how do you actually get people to get to the PQA stage?
那么，如何真正让人们进入 PQA 阶段呢？
Just like product often will own engagement metric or maybe even activation target, your own PQA target, so that just becomes one of the goals.
就像产品通常会拥有参与度指标，甚至可能有激活目标、您自己的 PQA 目标一样，因此这就成为目标之一。
Depending on where the biggest effort that needs to be, it can be an activation, it can be engagement in PPPQA, but more and more I see product-led, especially mature companies needing to focus their product teams on PQQ, yet they don't have a clear definition because sales kind of goes rogue and does their own thing.
根据需要付出最大努力的地方，它可以是一种激活，也可以是参与 PPPQA，但我越来越多地看到以产品为主导的公司，尤其是成熟的公司需要将他们的产品团队集中在 PQQ 上，但他们没有一个明确的定义，因为销售有点流氓并且做他们自己的事情。
Product fails to deliver predictable pipeline to sales, which pushes sales into a top-down motion prematurely.
产品未能向销售提供可预测的渠道，这导致销售过早地陷入自上而下的状态。
Lenny: A PQA target would be like 1,000 PQAs at this quarter.
Lenny：本季度 PQA 目标约为 1,000 个 PQA。
Is that the way you-
你就是这样吗——
Elena Verna: Yeah, yeah, so you usually actually look at it almost from conversion rate.
Elena Verna：是的，是的，所以你实际上通常几乎从转化率来看待它。
You look at, "Okay, how many teams do I have in my ICP, so ideal customer profile segment, that are active?" That's my denominator, and how many of those teams are reaching PQA target-
您会看到，“好吧，我的 ICP（如此理想的客户档案细分市场）中有多少个活跃团队？”这是我的分母，以及其中有多少团队达到了 PQA 目标 -
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
this month?
这个月？
It's like a conversion rate to PQA out of engaged ICP teams.
这就像从参与的 ICP 团队到 PQA 的转化率。
Lenny: One thing that I love that you've touched on is this awareness of monetization.
莱尼：我喜欢你提到的一件事就是这种货币化意识。
Lenny: People knowing that you have more features and that you may get access to more if you pay.
莱尼：人们知道您拥有更多功能，并且如果您付费就可以使用更多功能。
How do you track that?
你如何追踪它？
Is it just like people seeing it per account or per user, like what percentage of seeing one of these upsells or seeing them three times?
是否就像人们在每个帐户或每个用户上看到它一样，比如看到这些追加销售之一或看到它们三次的百分比是多少？
Elena Verna: I track it fairly simple two ways, one, qualitatively.
Elena Verna：我通过两种方式相当简单地追踪它，一是定性。
I just run surveys against people and say, "Do you know what we're selling?" It's shocking how many just have no idea what's in our paid plans.
我只是对人们进行调查并说：“你知道我们在卖什么吗？”令人震惊的是，有多少人根本不知道我们的付费计划中有什么。
Like we have major issue here, or I just track pricing page views per activated account.
就像我们在这里遇到重大问题一样，或者我只是跟踪每个激活帐户的定价页面浏览量。
How many of the activated accounts landed on the pricing page at least once?
有多少已激活的帐户至少登陆过定价页面一次？
That's at least a level of exposure that they hit some sort of trigger that pulled them to explore a pricing page.
这至少是他们触发某种触发因素并促使他们探索定价页面的曝光水平。
One of the things that just want to give a hint to anybody who's listening from a sales top-down companies, one issue you might have is that when your products is developing functionality, especially paid functionality, they just design review it and ship it for paid plans only.
我只想给任何正在聆听自上而下的销售公司的人一个提示，您可能会遇到的一个问题是，当您的产品正在开发功能时，尤其是付费功能时，他们只是对其进行设计审查并仅针对付费计划进行交付。
Elena Verna: If I'm in the free plan or in the lower tier plan, I don't even see it.
Elena Verna：如果我使用免费计划或较低级别的计划，我什至看不到它。
I don't even know of it existence because it doesn't exist in the app because it was never designed for me to even see it.
我什至不知道它的存在，因为它不存在于应用程序中，因为它从来就不是为了让我看到它而设计的。
Just doing one small change of pushing your design reviews to review functionality from every single state of the customer, free state, lower paid state, and target state that this functionality is actually unlocked can do all of the difference in the world.
只需做一个小小的改变，推动你的设计审查来审查客户的每个状态、免费状态、较低付费状态以及该功能实际上已解锁的目标状态的功能，就可以带来世界上所有的不同。
Then, you'll actually understand how that functionality is being exposed to a free user, so them to become aware in self-serve manner of its existence.
然后，您将真正了解该功能如何向免费用户公开，以便他们以自助方式意识到其存在。
Lenny: I love, love, love all these little tactical little insights and tips, so thanks for sharing all these little things that end up being the most useful to people.
莱尼：我爱、爱、爱所有这些战术上的小见解和技巧，所以感谢您分享所有这些最终对人们最有用的小东西。
Just a few more questions and then I'll let you go.
只要再问几个问题，我就让你走。
One is around pitfalls.
一是围绕陷阱。
What have you found are the most common pitfalls that startups run into as they're trying to invest in product-led sales?
您发现初创公司在尝试投资产品主导型销售时遇到的最常见陷阱是什么？
You touched on a few, but what comes to mind when I ask you that?
你提到了一些，但当我问你这个问题时你会想到什么？
Elena Verna: Let's just go through some summary that we've mentioned already throughout our conversation.
Elena Verna：让我们回顾一下我们在整个谈话中已经提到过的一些总结。
Don't treat PLS as a traditional top-down sales process.
不要将 PLS 视为传统的自上而下的销售流程。
Every single user does not equal.
每个用户都是不平等的。
It's a opportunity for you to co-chase after.
这是一个你们共同追逐的机会。
You need to understand the right triggers and usage.
您需要了解正确的触发器和用法。
They can help you automate qualification process, so it's almost automating some of the SDR efforts to say, "When is the right time for my sales, for my human that I'm paying a lot of money, to intervene into this account and add value?"
它们可以帮助您实现资格流程自动化，因此几乎可以自动化一些 SDR 工作，即“什么时候是我的销售、我的员工（我支付了很多钱）干预该账户并增加价值的合适时机？”
Elena Verna: Sales interaction has to add value to user journey, not be disruptive or create additional friction because I've seen so many, even people posting of like, "Why am I getting a phone call 10 minutes later" It's annoying.
Elena Verna：销售互动必须为用户旅程增加价值，而不是造成干扰或产生额外的摩擦，因为我见过很多人，甚至有人发帖说，“为什么我 10 分钟后才接到电话”，这很烦人。
I'm going to stop using the product because of it." They feel misunderstood.
我将因此停止使用该产品。”他们感到被误解了。
For that profile.
对于那个配置文件。
Your customers understand whether you have buyers, whether you have users, and they're in your ICP segment.
您的客户了解您是否有买家、是否有用户以及他们是否属于您的 ICP 细分市场。
Know this information upfront so you can serve a best experience possible.
预先了解这些信息，以便您可以提供最佳体验。
Elena Verna: Number two, hold your product accountable.
Elena Verna：第二，让你的产品负责。
This cannot be just executed through marketing and sales.
这不能仅通过营销和销售来执行。
Product has to have a seat at the table and product and sales relationship has to be one of the closest ones in this motion.
产品必须在谈判桌上占有一席之地，并且产品和销售关系必须是该议案中最密切的关系之一。
That's really hard to change, especially in the traditional top-down sales company where marketing and sales have closer relationship.
这确实很难改变，尤其是在传统的自上而下的销售公司中，营销和销售的关系更加密切。
Try to create new rituals.
尝试创造新的仪式。
Try to create the new ways of communication between the teams for them to be aligned behind the same goals.
尝试在团队之间创建新的沟通方式，以便他们在相同的目标下保持一致。
Elena Verna: Number three, don't leave marketing out of the equation.
Elena Verna：第三，不要将营销排除在外。
Majority of your usage will not have a buyer in it.
您的大部分使用不会有买家。
You will need marketing, your enterprise marketing, your account-based marketing to go and find and hunt that buyer and to bring them and connect them with usage.
您将需要营销、企业营销、基于帐户的营销来寻找和寻找买家并吸引他们并将他们与使用联系起来。
Lean on your marketing team.
依靠您的营销团队。
Just because you're doing product-led growth and product-led sales does not mean you don't need marketing, and strong product marketer can do wonders here in helping you with messaging, with outreach, and sales enablement materials.
仅仅因为你正在进行产品主导的增长和产品主导的销售，并不意味着你不需要营销，强大的产品营销人员可以在帮助你传递消息、外展和销售支持材料方面创造奇迹。
Elena Verna: Number three, don't wait on data efficacy too long.
Elena Verna：第三，不要等待数据有效性太久。
You might be using your intuition at the beginning very well, but start thinking about how you will need to scale your data issues because product-led sales is all about leveraging usage for pipeline creation.
您可能一开始就很好地运用了自己的直觉，但开始考虑如何扩展数据问题，因为以产品为主导的销售就是利用管道创建的使用。
You need to be able to measure that usage, understand that usage, track it, and evolve it.
您需要能够衡量该使用情况、了解该使用情况、跟踪它并改进它。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Two more things.
还有两件事。
One is you shared before we started chatting that you have some benchmarks around some of these metrics that you've mentioned of just what is good so that people can understand what their goals might be.
一是您在我们开始聊天之前分享的，您对其中一些指标有一些基准，您提到这些指标是什么是好的，以便人们可以了解他们的目标可能是什么。
What can you share there?
你可以在那里分享什么？
Elena Verna: Yes, so in terms of benchmarks, first of all, it's time to get from individual usage, when that user comes in to have a single job to be done, to creating an enterprise-level contract.
Elena Verna：是的，所以就基准而言，首先，是时候从个人使用（当用户进来完成一项工作时）转向创建企业级合同。
It does not happen in hours.
这不会在几个小时内发生。
It does not happen in days.
这不会在几天内发生。
It doesn't even happen in months of usage.
即使使用几个月也不会发生这种情况。
A couple of benchmarks for y'all across Netlify, Miro, or Amplitude, which are all of the companies I worked at.
为大家提供 Netlify、Miro 或 Amplitude 的几个基准，这些都是我工作过的公司。
It was 12 months plus of usage that had to happen before sales contracts can be created on sustainable way.
在以可持续的方式创建销售合同之前，必须使用 12 个月以上。
Elena Verna: Now, that's not an all-encompassing rule.
Elena Verna：现在，这并不是一个包罗万象的规则。
You will have very high-intent buyers coming in sometimes and you'll be able to close them within a week, but on average it takes a year of usage to escalate the problem from individual to a company-level solution.
有时会有意向非常高的买家进来，您将能够在一周内关闭他们，但平均需要一年的使用时间才能将问题从个人升级为公司级别的解决方案。
It takes time, be patient.
这需要时间，要有耐心。
This is not the problem of get more sign-ups this quarter and close more pipeline in the same quarter.
这不是本季度获得更多注册并在同一季度关闭更多管道的问题。
This says you building for long-term growth and you closing contracts and the sign-ups that happened really last year in the best case scenario.
这表明您正在为长期增长而努力，并在最好的情况下完成去年真正发生的合同和签约。
Elena Verna: Number two is don't confuse user and buyer.
Elena Verna：第二点是不要混淆用户和买家。
Please, please, please profile your users upon sign-up.
请在注册时介绍您的用户。
Do not skip those onboarding questions.
不要跳过这些入职问题。
No, they do not detract for your onboarding completion rates and people that do drop off in the profiling stage, they were low intent anyways.
不，他们不会降低你的入职完成率和在分析阶段流失的人员，无论如何，他们的意图很低。
They were never going to be activating if one extra question deterred them from completing, from continuing with your product.
如果一个额外的问题阻止他们完成、继续使用你的产品，他们永远不会被激活。
Profile your people, know who you're talking to.
介绍您的人员，了解您在与谁交谈。
It's more important than a couple percentage drop-off that will never going to activate in the first place.
这比一开始就永远不会激活的几个百分比的下降更重要。
No, no, no die user please because all of us-
不，不，请不要死用户，因为我们所有人-
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
are tired of receiving outbound that is not relevant to us.
厌倦了接收与我们无关的出站信息。
Then, the third one is conversion.
然后，第三个是转换。
Conversion rates here actually stand from the true PLG companies, so freemium conversion rate is usually around 5%, trial conversions are more closer to 10 to 15%, but your contract value start to go up.
这里的转化率实际上是来自真正的 PLG 公司，因此免费增值转化率通常在 5% 左右，试用转化率更接近 10% 到 15%，但你的合同价值开始上升。
Elena Verna: It's not so much that you increasing conversion rates because a lot of those companies will still go through self-serve monetization flow before they become your sales pipeline prospects.
Elena Verna：这并不是说你要提高转化率，因为很多这样的公司在成为你的销售渠道前景之前仍然会经历自助货币化流程。
Conversion rates stay the same, but your contract values and your lifetime value of the customer is what starts to increasingly go up and that you can influx into creating a smile revenue curve.
转化率保持不变，但您的合同价值和客户的终身价值开始逐渐上升，您可以将其投入创造微笑收入曲线。
Lenny: Incredible.
莱尼：难以置信。
The question you had about profiling your user, I was going to ask what questions to ask.
关于您的用户分析的问题，我想问要问什么问题。
I'm guessing maybe a better approach is just go to Miro or Amplitude and just go through the sign-in flow and see what they're asking.
我猜也许更好的方法是访问 Miro 或 Amplitude，浏览登录流程并查看他们的要求。
Elena Verna: Yeah, I would give some couple parameters in place.
Elena Verna：是的，我会给出一些适当的参数。
Number one, limited to maybe three to four screens because otherwise it starts to feel too long.
第一，限制在三到四个屏幕上，否则会感觉太长。
Make sure they only ask information that you either going to use in the data segmentation that then you can escalate to personalization and messaging, but at least that you're going to use on data segmentation and experiment with how deep of an information that you can ask.
确保他们只询问您将在数据分段中使用的信息，然后您可以升级到个性化和消息传递，但至少您将在数据分段中使用并尝试您可以询问的信息有多深。
Elena Verna: You should always be able to ask about company size, about the department, which customers coming from, about their seniority on the team and about their use case.
Elena Verna：您应该始终能够询问公司规模、部门、客户来自哪些地方、他们在团队中的资历以及他们的用例。
Those four questions are uniform.
这四个问题是统一的。
Everybody's used to answering them.
每个人都习惯于回答这些问题。
The rest like phone number or some...
其余的比如电话号码或一些......
maybe if you need to know the address or so on, those experiments, how much you actually want to make them required questions versus optional, but please, please, please experiment on your onboarding questionnaires.
也许如果您需要知道地址等，这些实验，您实际上想让它们成为必填问题与可选问题的程度，但是请，请，请在您的入职调查问卷上进行实验。
All of you.
你们所有人。
Lenny: Closing question.
莱尼：结束语。
Everyone started with sales, sales-led growth.
大家都是从销售开始，以销售带动增长。
and then product-led growth emerged and now there's this bridge between the two of sales-led growth.
然后产品主导型增长出现，现在销售主导型增长两者之间出现了这座桥梁。
Feels like there's always this new way of growing a business and approaching go-to-market.
感觉总是有这种发展业务和进入市场的新方式。
Is there something beyond product-led sales?
除了以产品为主导的销售之外，还有其他什么吗？
What's next, if anything?
如果有的话，下一步是什么？
Elena Verna: Well, I wonder how much a rise in AI is going to automate some of those sales conversations.
Elena Verna：嗯，我想知道人工智能的发展将在多大程度上实现某些销售对话的自动化。
It's not going to be truly product-led growth because-
这不会是真正的产品主导型增长，因为——
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
it's not like just the product's it's going to sell itself.
这不仅仅是产品本身的销售。
What if on the other side of that chat or other side of that email or even a Zoom call because they can do a deep fake of anybody, it's going to be AI selling to you and giving you very deep and personalized answers?
如果在聊天的另一边、电子邮件的另一边、甚至 Zoom 通话的另一边（因为他们可以对任何人进行深度伪造），人工智能会向你推销产品，并为你提供非常深入和个性化的答案，该怎么办？
I am curious to see how that's going to evolve because the plethora of information that AI can surface to you in a very personalized manner in a matter of seconds is far stronger than any human or even content management system can do at the moment.
我很好奇这将如何发展，因为人工智能可以在几秒钟内以非常个性化的方式向您呈现大量信息，这远远强于目前任何人类甚至内容管理系统所能做到的。
Lenny: Do you want to coin an acronym right now for what that might be?
莱尼：你现在想创造一个缩写词来表示它可能是什么吗？
Lenny: ...
莱尼：……
G.
G。
Wow, it's a mouthful.
哇，真是一口。
Elena, this was everything I was hoping it would be.
埃琳娜，这就是我所希望的一切。
I imagine this episode will be even more popular than your first one.
我想这一集会比第一集更受欢迎。
Thank you so much for making time and getting into such detail in all the things we talked about.
非常感谢您抽出时间并详细讨论我们谈论的所有事情。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find online if they want to reach out, learn more?
如果人们想要联系、了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到在线信息？
How can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Elena Verna: I'm on LinkedIn a lot, but I have started my own Substack, so please subscribe to my newsletter if you can.
Elena Verna：我经常使用 LinkedIn，但我已经创建了自己的 Substack，所以如果可以的话，请订阅我的时事通讯。
Elena Verna: I put more short content on LinkedIn and longer form explanations in my Substack, not to compete with your Lenny Newsletter-
Elena Verna：我在 LinkedIn 上放置了更多简短内容，在我的 Substack 中放置了较长的解释，而不是与您的 Lenny Newsletter 竞争 -
Lenny: ...
莱尼：……
there's plenty of room for everyone.
每个人都有足够的空间。
I recommend yours within Substack and we're going to link to it, and definitely there's like no reason not to subscribe if you're listening to this podcast.
我在 Substack 中推荐你的，我们将链接到它，如果你正在听这个播客，绝对没有理由不订阅。
It's only upside.
这只是有利的一面。
Elena Verna: Well, thank you.
埃琳娜·维尔纳：好的，谢谢。
We're also creating PLG course with Reforge that is going to go into very nitty-gritty details of everything that I'm talking about to help you operationalize these concepts.
我们还与 Reforge 一起创建 PLG 课程，该课程将详细介绍我正在谈论的所有内容，以帮助您实施这些概念。
It's launching in fall-
将于秋季推出——
Elena Verna: ...
埃琳娜·维尔娜：……
so do check that out.
所以一定要检查一下。
Other than that, I'm a really big believer in democratizing knowledge so we don't have to all make the same mistakes over and over again, so the biggest way that you can help me is to share your insight, share your knowledge, and share your learnings so we can all grow so much faster together.
除此之外，我非常相信知识民主化，这样我们就不必一遍又一遍地犯同样的错误，所以你能帮助我的最大方式就是分享你的见解，分享你的知识，分享你的学习，这样我们就能一起成长得更快。
Lenny: Well, you're one of the best at doing that, and thank you again for doing this.
莱尼：嗯，你是这方面最擅长的人之一，再次感谢你这样做。
Elena Verna: Thank you for having me, Lenny.
埃琳娜·维尔纳：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。
Lenny: Bye, everyone.
莱尼：再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。