10 growth tactics that never work | Elena Verna (Amplitude, Miro, Dropbox, SurveyMonkey)

Elena Verna: Growth is a fairly new field.

Elena Verna：增长是一个相当新的领域。

You have a lot of renowned interest in growth hacks, like what is the sure things to get growth.

您对增长黑客有很多众所周知的兴趣，比如什么是确定可以实现增长的事情。

In the age of social media everybody and anybody tries to share their tips and tricks.

在社交媒体时代，每个人都试图分享他们的技巧和窍门。

Oftentimes things that are completely out of context or they are very specific to one example and actually do not apply as a pattern.

通常情况下，一些事情完全脱离了上下文，或者它们非常特定于一个示例，并且实际上并不适用于一种模式。

Lenny Rachitsky: We're going to start with growth tactics that never work.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们将从永远不会奏效的增长策略开始。

If you see these items on your roadmap, you should probably not do them.

如果您在路线图上看到这些项目，您可能不应该这样做。

What's number one?

第一名是什么？

Elena Verna: We live in tech.

Elena Verna：我们生活在科技之中。

There's always lots of startups and startups obviously looking to grow.

总是有很多初创公司和显然希望成长的初创公司。

There is a huge misconception in the field that in order to get growth going, you need a growth team.

该领域存在一个巨大的误解，即为了实现增长，你需要一支增长团队。

To figure out your product market fit and how to distribute it, it's not something that you can outsource to somebody.

要弄清楚你的产品适合市场以及如何分配它，这不是你可以外包给别人的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Powerful words.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有力的话语。

I'm loving this list already.

我已经很喜欢这个清单了。

Elena Verna: Number two, this was my favorite and it might be a little spicy.

Elena Verna：第二，这是我最喜欢的，可能有点辣。

Never ever once have I seen a rebrand or redesign, especially of UK marketing site produce good performance results.

我从来没有见过重塑品牌或重新设计，特别是英国营销网站产生良好的性能结果。

New CMO comes in designing their website or designing the brand as if it was reflection of their personal taste, and oftentimes it's promised with our acquisition is going to go up and it never materializes into anything meaningful.

新的 CMO 开始设计他们的网站或设计品牌，就好像这反映了他们的个人品味，而且通常我们的收购承诺会上升，但它永远不会实现任何有意义的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: A lot of contrary intakes here, I love this.

Lenny Rachitsky：这里有很多相反的观点，我喜欢这个。

Elena Verna: Number three, if every single one of your initiatives that you're doing on growth is an experiment that's a problem.

Elena Verna：第三，如果你所做的每一项增长举措都是一项实验，那就有问题了。

It's almost like a disease, like a paralyzing disease.

这几乎就像一种疾病，一种瘫痪性疾病。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Elena Verna, my first ever third time repeat guest.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天我的客人是 Elena Verna，她是我有史以来第一个第三次重复的客人。

Elena is the smartest person that I know on B2B Growth.

Elena 是我所认识的 B2B 增长领域最聪明的人。

She's also hilarious.

她也很搞笑。

She's led growth at companies like Miro Amplitude, Dropbox, and SurveyMonkey.

她领导了 Miro Amplitude、Dropbox 和 SurveyMonkey 等公司的发展。

She's advised dozens of companies on growth including Superhuman, MongoDB, Netlify, Similarweb, Sanity, Maze, so many more.

她为数十家公司提供了发展建议，包括 Super human、MongoDB、Netlify、Similarweb、Sanity、Maze 等等。

In our conversation, Elena shares 10 growth strategies and tactics that never work yet that she keeps seeing people and companies invest lots of resources into.

在我们的谈话中，埃琳娜分享了 10 种尚未奏效的增长战略和策略，她不断看到人们和公司投入了大量资源。

She also covers her three favorite growth frameworks that help you wrap your head around how to think about growth, and she also does a short dive into the non-traditional career paths that we both went down.

她还介绍了她最喜欢的三个成长框架，帮助你思考如何思考成长，她还简短地探讨了我们俩都经历过的非传统职业道路。

If you spend any time working on product growth or lead people or work with people working on growth, this episode is for you.

如果您花时间致力于产品增长或领导人员或与致力于增长的人员合作，那么本集适合您。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing feature episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过专题节目的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Elena Verna.

接下来，我为您带来埃琳娜·维尔娜。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Sinch the customer communications cloud.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由客户通信云 Sinch 为您带来。

Here's the thing about digital customer communications, whether you're sending marketing campaigns, verification codes or account alerts, you need them to reach users reliably.

这是关于数字客户通信的事情，无论您是发送营销活动、验证码还是帐户警报，您都需要它们可靠地联系用户。

That's where Sinch comes in.

这就是辛奇的用武之地。

Over 150,000 businesses, including eight of the top 10 largest tech companies globally use Sinch's API to build messaging, email and calling into their products.

超过 150,000 家企业（包括全球十大科技公司中的八家）使用 Sinch 的 API 在其产品中构建消息传递、电子邮件和通话功能。

And there's something big happening in messaging that product teams need to know about, Rich Communication Services or RCS, think of RCS as SMS 2.0.

产品团队需要了解消息传递领域正在发生的重大变化，即丰富的通信服务或 RCS，将 RCS 视为 SMS 2.0。

Instead of getting texts from a random number, your users will see your verified company name and logo without needing to download anything new.

您的用户将看到您经过验证的公司名称和徽标，而不是从随机数字中获取文本，而无需下载任何新内容。

It's a more secure and branded experience, plus you get features like interactive carousels and suggested replies.

这是一种更安全、更品牌化的体验，此外，您还可以获得交互式轮播和建议回复等功能。

Lenny Rachitsky: And here's why this matters.

Lenny Rachitsky：这就是为什么这很重要。

US carriers are starting to adopt RCS.

美国运营商开始采用 RCS。

Sinch is already helping major brands send RCS messages around the world and they're helping Lenny's podcast listeners get registered first before the rush hits the US market.

Sinch 已经在帮助各大品牌在世界各地发送 RCS 消息，并且他们正在帮助 Lenny 的播客听众在热潮席卷美国市场之前首先注册。

Learn more and get started at sinch.com/Lenny.

如需了解更多信息并开始使用，请访问sinch.com/Lenny。

That's S-I-N-C-H.com/Lenny.

那是 S-I-N-C-H.com/Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Vanta.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来。

When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast, now you can assess risk, secure the trust of your customers, and automate compliance for SOC 2, ISO 27001, HIPAA and more with a single platform, Vanta.

当谈到确保您的公司拥有一流的安全实践时，事情会很快变得复杂，现在您可以使用单一平台 Vanta 评估风险、确保客户的信任并自动实现 SOC 2、ISO 27001、HIPAA 等的合规性。

Vanta's market-leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance alongside reporting and tracking risks.

Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性以及报告和跟踪风险。

Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI.

此外，您还可以通过 Vanta AI 完成安全调查问卷来节省时间。

Join thousands of global companies that use Vanta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews.

加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。

Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to Vanta.com/Lenny.

访问 Vanta.com/Lenny 即可享受 Vanta 立减 1,000 美元。

That's V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny.

那是 V-A-N-T-A.com/Lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Elena, thank you so much for being here.

Lenny Rachitsky：Elena，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome back to the podcast, our first ever third-time repeat guest.

欢迎回到播客，这是我们第一位第三次重复的客人。

What an honor Dancing if you're not watching on video.

如果您不看视频，跳舞真是太荣幸了。

Thank you for being here.

感谢您来到这里。

I was actually just looking at our first episode, which we recorded almost over two years ago, September of 2022, and someone just today left a comment.

实际上，我只是在看我们的第一集，该集是我们在两年多前（即 2022 年 9 月）录制的，今天就有人发表了评论。

People are still finding and watching it, and this comment encapsulates why I love having you on this podcast.

人们仍在寻找和观看它，这条评论概括了为什么我喜欢让你加入这个播客。

This person said, "Wow, every word from Elena encapsulates years of knowledge.

这个人说：“哇，埃琳娜的每句话都浓缩了多年的知识。

This is one to digest, slowly go back to and put on repeat.

这是一个需要消化的过程，慢慢返回并重复。

Thanks for sharing your experience with the world"

感谢您与世界分享您的经验”

Elena Verna: Thank you for having me.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：谢谢你邀请我。

And my north star metric is insights per minute.

我的北极星指标是每分钟的见解。

That's what I try to use whenever I have any live meetings with people so it squarely fits within what I'm optimizing for.

每当我与人们进行现场会议时，我都会尝试使用这种方法，因此它完全符合我正在优化的目标。

That's great.

那太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: That needs to be my KPI on this podcast, "Insights per minute."

Lenny Rachitsky：这应该成为我在这个播客“每分钟见解”中的 KPI。

Elena Verna: I think you have it.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：我想你已经做到了。

I think your insights per minute is pretty high.

我认为你每分钟的洞察力相当高。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I do shoot for that, although I have learned you also needed to feel good and feel their story.

我确实为此而努力，尽管我知道你也需要感觉良好并感受他们的故事。

There's an interesting combo stuff.

有一个有趣的组合。

You can't just be insight, insight, insight.

你不能只是洞察力、洞察力、洞察力。

Elena Verna: It's all about how you present them too.

Elena Verna：这也取决于你如何呈现它们。

Storytelling is a big portion of it actually to stick.

讲故事是其中很重要的一部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: Already insight.

Lenny Rachitsky：已经有洞察力了。

That's an insight right there.

这就是一个洞察力。

There's two areas that I want to spend time on with you, and these are areas I know you've been thinking a lot about.

我想在两个领域与您共度时光，我知道您一直在思考这些领域。

One is growth tactics that never work, that people keep spending time on and waste their time on.

一种是永远不会奏效的增长策略，人们不断地在上面花费时间和浪费时间。

And I know you have a nice list of things you've seen that just don't work that people keep trying.

我知道你有一个很好的清单，列出了你所看到的但人们不断尝试却行不通的事情。

And then two is growth frameworks, your favorite growth frameworks to help people wrap their mind around how to think about growth and grow their product.

然后两个是增长框架，你最喜欢的增长框架可以帮助人们思考如何思考增长和发展他们的产品。

We're going to start with growth tactics that never works.

我们将从永远行不通的增长策略开始。

Maybe just frame what we're going to talk about, talk about what this list and collection of tactics that we're going to talk about is.

也许只是框架我们要讨论的内容，讨论我们要讨论的策略列表和集合是什么。

Elena Verna: Growth is a fairly new field compared to marketing or product management or engineering.

Elena Verna：与营销、产品管理或工程相比，增长是一个相当新的领域。

There's a lot of people that are now accumulated that have 10 years or so experience, but there's also a lot of newcomers and because there's ratio of actually newcomers, it's much higher than those people that have five, 10 years of experience of doing growth.

现在积累的人有很多是有10年左右经验的，但是也有很多新人，因为真正新人的比例，比那些有5年、10年做成长经验的人要高很多。

You have a lot of renowned interest in growth hacks.

您对增长黑客有很多众所周知的兴趣。

What is the sure things to get growth?

什么是确定能够获得增长的事情？

What is the sure thing to get that metric up?

提高该指标的确定因素是什么？

How can I contribute to success with the company the fastest way possible?

我怎样才能以最快的方式为公司的成功做出贡献？

All of these shortcuts and obviously in the age of social media where everybody and anybody tries to share their tips and tricks and this and that, people are grasping for oftentimes things that are completely out of context or they are very specific to one example and actually do not apply as a pattern or simply not even applicable to their type of business whatsoever.

所有这些捷径，显然在社交媒体时代，每个人和任何人都试图分享他们的提示和技巧以及这样那样的东西，人们常常抓住完全脱离上下文的东西，或者它们非常特定于一个例子，实际上并不适用于作为一种模式，或者根本不适用于他们的业务类型。

Elena Verna: There's just a lot of failure happening in growth teams.

Elena Verna：增长团队中发生了很多失败。

Actually, I think growth teams are becoming one of those departments that has a higher head of growth firing rate than even CMOs because people are coming in, there's a bunch of expectations, "Hey, you're ahead of growth or you are a growth pm or you're a growth marketer, you're supposed to drive growth." And when that growth does not happen, here comes the axe and people off they go and the recycle and cycle starts all over in order to populate those positions.

事实上，我认为增长团队正在成为增长负责人解雇率甚至比首席营销官更高的部门之一，因为人们进来时，有很多期望，“嘿，你领先于增长，或者你是增长经理，或者你是增长营销人员，你应该推动增长。”当这种增长没有发生时，就会出现斧头和人员离开，然后重新开始回收和循环，以填补这些职位。

I think that there's just a lot of misinformation I would say probably out there in terms of what growth actually is and how it should be done in the companies.

我认为，关于增长的实际含义以及公司应该如何实现增长，我想说可能存在很多错误信息。

And today I just want to cover some of the biggest ones that I see as a patterns as I'm advising companies, as I'm operating in companies because it's just so blatant yet there's very few pieces of information on this for people to learn from.

今天，我只想介绍一些我在为公司提供咨询时认为是一种模式的最大模式，因为我在公司中运营，因为它是如此明目张胆，但可供人们学习的信息却很少。

Elena Verna: Number one, I have to start with hiring.

Elena Verna：第一，我必须从招聘开始。

There's lots of positions open all the time.

一直有很多职位空缺。

There's so many from head of growth to growth PM there's a lot of rotation, as I said that is happening in the field.

从增长负责人到增长 PM，有很多人轮换，正如我所说，这种情况正在该领域发生。

Very few growth people actually stay in the job for over a year or two years.

很少有成长型人才能够真正在工作岗位上工作超过一年或两年。

There's a lot of constant churn and constant rehiring.

有很多不断的流失和不断的重新招聘。

And when you doing hiring, there's a lot of mistakes that are actually happening in hiring that I just want to start off on the list.

当你进行招聘时，在招聘过程中实际上会发生很多错误，我只想从列表中开始。

It's not a roadmap item, but oh my gosh, there's just so much fault that is happening here.

这不是路线图项目，但天哪，这里发生了太多错误。

And I did write about it on your blog of hiring for growth.

我确实在你的招聘增长博客上写过这一点。

There's a little bit of a reference to that and one of the biggest latent issues that I see is hiring too soon for growth.

有一点提到这一点，我认为最大的潜在问题之一是为增长而招聘太早。

Elena Verna: We live in tech, there's always lots of startups.

Elena Verna：我们生活在科技行业，总是有很多初创公司。

Startups are obviously looking to grow and there is a huge misconception in the shield that in order to get growth going, you need a growth team, absolutely not true.

初创公司显然希望实现增长，但人们有一个巨大的误解，即为了实现增长，你需要一支增长团队，这绝对不是事实。

In order to get the growth going in the company, a founder and the founding team have to figure out how to make it grow to the first, let's say a million, 5 million, 10 million in ARR.

为了让公司继续增长，创始人和创始团队必须想办法让它增长到第一，比如说ARR达到100万、500万、1000万。

Some of the companies don't even create growth teams until they're a hundred, 200 million in ARR because to figure out your product market fit and how to distribute it's not something that you can outsource to somebody.

有些公司甚至在 ARR 达到 100、2 亿之前才创建增长团队，因为弄清楚你的产品市场契合度以及如何分配它不是你可以外包给别人的事情。

It's not somebody that with a shiny resume can come over and all of a sudden wave a magic wand and all of a sudden you have viral campaigns and a bunch of signups coming through and everybody's paying and everybody's retaining.

这不是一个拥有闪亮简历的人可以突然挥舞魔杖，突然之间你就会有病毒式营销活动和大量的注册，每个人都付费并且每个人都保留。

Elena Verna: That just doesn't happen.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：那是不会发生的。

I see that mistake happening a lot.

我发现这种错误经常发生。

I really believe that the founder led growth is not being popularized enough that you do not need growth teams until you actually can start running experiments on your user base, which means that you have volume of users that you can learn from and optimize and innovate on, and that first wave of growth has to be founder led.

我真的相信创始人主导的增长还没有得到足够的普及，以至于你不需要增长团队，直到你真正开始在你的用户群上进行实验，这意味着你有大量的用户可以学习、优化和创新，而第一波增长必须是创始人主导的。

Elena Verna: And there's two specific reasons that I incur on, which is before you have growth team, before you would think about growth team first you need to have solid PMF, product market fit, means that you have a solution to a problem and you have customers not only coming in and solving that problem with your solution, but they're also retaining and staying with you.

Elena Verna：我认为有两个具体原因，那就是在你拥有增长团队之前，在你首先考虑增长团队之前，你需要有可靠的 PMF，即产品市场契合度，这意味着你有问题的解决方案，而且你的客户不仅会进来并用你的解决方案解决问题，而且还会保留并留在你身边。

There is a good retention.

有良好的保持力。

You can use channel score of how many people would say that they cannot live without your product as well, but there's some sort of PMF.

您可以使用渠道分数来衡量有多少人会说没有您的产品他们就无法生存，但是有某种 PMF。

And then number two, you have data growth cannot function without data.

第二，如果没有数据，数据增长就无法发挥作用。

If you have 10 users or 10 customers, that's not data, that's a G-sheet with your customers and you don't need a growth team for that.

如果您有 10 个用户或 10 个客户，那不是数据，而是客户的 G 表，您不需要为此建立增长团队。

Until you have data that you can actually do an analysis and you can create hypotheses on and you can start applying experimentation, don't even think about growth team.

在你拥有可以实际进行分析、可以创建假设并可以开始应用实验的数据之前，甚至不要考虑增长团队。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just to summarize a few of the things you just said, just for folks, you basically have seen startups look for a head of growth to join and solve their growth problem and your insight there is just almost always that is not going to be the solution to your problem until you have strong retention already, have a really high score on the channel score if don't have a ton of data yet and party advice is just the founder should continue to do this for as long as possible.

Lenny Rachitsky：总结一下你刚才所说的一些事情，仅供大家参考，你基本上已经看到初创公司在寻找增长主管来加入并解决他们的增长问题，而你的洞察力几乎总是不会成为你问题的解决方案，除非你已经拥有强大的保留率，如果还没有大量数据，则在渠道分数上获得非常高的分数，而各方的建议只是创始人应该尽可能长时间地继续这样做。

A million ARR is one milestone a lot of people recommend.

100 万 ARR 是很多人推荐的一个里程碑。

To your point, a lot of companies wait lot longer.

就你的观点而言，许多公司等待的时间要长得多。

Elena Verna: Yes.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

And honestly, the longer you wait, the better it is because that way your entire company will be trained to be responsible for growth as opposed to putting this one island with a growth team and saying, "They're going to be growing," and what is the rest of the company doing?

老实说，你等待的时间越长越好，因为这样你的整个公司就会接受培训，负责增长，而不是把这个孤岛放在一个增长团队中，然后说：“他们将会增长”，而公司的其他部门在做什么？

Honestly, the longer you wait, the better.

老实说，等待的时间越长越好。

Lenny Rachitsky: As you talk about this, sales is a part of what you described here, like hiring your first sales person.

Lenny Rachitsky：当你谈到这个时，销售是你在这里描述的一部分，就像雇佣你的第一个销售人员一样。

And I guess how do you think about your first head of growth versus salesperson?

我想您如何看待您的第一位增长主管与销售人员？

Is there anything advice there is?

有什么建议吗？

Like for B2B SaaS, you probably don't hire head of growth for even longer, you hire sales first or what's your advice?

就像 B2B SaaS 一样，您可能不会在更长的时间内雇用增长主管，而是首先雇用销售人员，或者您有什么建议？

Elena Verna: It depends on how you're actually going to collect the monies.

Elena Verna：这取决于你实际上将如何筹集资金。

If your money collection is going to happen through sales team primarily, then you absolutely should be hiring sales way before growth.

如果您的资金收款主要通过销售团队进行，那么您绝对应该在增长之前雇用销售人员。

In fact, in the sales led companies, growth teams are not necessarily needed even that much.

事实上，在以销售为主导的公司中，增长团队的必要性并不一定那么高。

You might have a growth marketing team, which is really a demand gen team that is rebranded for growth marketing so they can charge you 20 to 30% more in their salaries, but at the end of the day, sales is doing your monetization.

你可能有一个增长营销团队，这实际上是一个需求生成团队，为增长营销而重新命名，这样他们就可以向你收取 20% 到 30% 的工资，但最终，销售正在为你货币化。

They are doing your activation, they are doing your retention and success efforts.

他们正在为你的激活、为你的保留和成功而努力。

For sales like companies, yeah, higher sales, absolutely.

对于像公司这样的销售，是的，绝对是更高的销售额。

Unless you're starting to do self-serve revenue.

除非你开始做自助收入。

Elena Verna: You're trying to have product sell itself through potentially freemium acquisition, trial acquisition or you actually having product led activation, monetization, that's when you would need a growth person.

Elena Verna：你试图通过潜在的免费增值收购、试用收购来让产品自行销售，或者你实际上拥有产品主导的激活、货币化，这就是你需要成长型人才的时候。

If you're starting with self-serve monetization, growth hire should be frankly first before sales.

如果您从自助货币化开始，坦率地说，增长招聘应该先于销售。

Your sales are going to be more opportunistic in nature versus if you sales led company, go ahead, hire sales, wait for growth until you are ready to overlay product-led growth on top of your sales motion.

与以销售为主导的公司相比，你的销售本质上会更加机会主义，继续前进，雇用销售人员，等待增长，直到你准备好将产品主导的增长叠加在你的销售行动之上。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an excellent clarification.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的澄清。

Basically what I'm hearing, the advice is hire your ahead of growth only when you have clear product market fit and you're a product-led company and beyond a millionaire ARR ideally something like that.

基本上我听到的建议是，只有当你有明确的产品市场契合度并且你是一家以产品为主导的公司并且超越百万富翁ARR（理想情况下是这样）时，才在增长之前雇用你。

Elena Verna: Right.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：对。

And I won't say you're product-led company.

我不会说你们是一家以产品为主导的公司。

You are relying on product-led motion to resolve a lot of the growth levers within you because you don't have to be fully product-led company.

你依靠以产品为主导的行动来解决你内部的许多增长杠杆，因为你不必是完全以产品为主导的公司。

But if product, let's say acquires people, let's say with the SEO or SEM, and then its product is meant to activate them and then sales closes them, sales would be obviously important as well, but growth would have to come in a little bit sooner as well.

但是，如果产品，比如说通过 SEO 或 SEM 来吸引人，那么它的产品就是为了激活他们，然后通过销售来关闭他们，那么销售显然也很重要，但增长也必须早一点出现。

If you have any product-led components where product is responsible for acquisition, activation, monetization or retention, that's where growth comes in.

如果你有任何以产品为主导的组件，其中产品负责获取、激活、货币化或保留，那么这就是增长的来源。

Lenny Rachitsky: We talked deeply about that specific topic in our first conversation, just for folks, want to go deeper there.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们在第一次谈话中深入讨论了这个特定主题，只是为了那些想要深入探讨的人。

There's lot there.

那里有很多东西。

Elena Verna: I need to bring it back.

Elena Verna：我需要把它带回来。

This is keeps happening.

这种情况一直在发生。

Elena Verna: I need to repeat it.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：我需要重复一遍。

You need to repeat it three times right before it sticks to people.

在它粘在人们身上之前，你需要重复三遍。

Hopefully this is the third time.

希望这是第三次。

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。

I'm only saying that because people may be wanting more of what you're describing and I will point them to our first episode, which gives deep on that one topic.

我这么说只是因为人们可能想要更多你所描述的内容，我会向他们指出我们的第一集，该集深入探讨了这个主题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Excellent.

莱尼·拉奇茨基： 太棒了。

Anything else before we move on to number two?

在我们继续讨论第二点之前还有什么要说的吗？

Elena Verna: No, let's move on to number two.

Elena Verna：不，让我们继续讨论第二点。

Elena Verna: Number two, this is on the other side on the matured company where I see a trend over and over, and it's becoming even more prominent right now of when companies growth slows down, which inevitably happens for a lot of businesses, it happens for a variety of reasons.

Elena Verna：第二，这是成熟公司的另一面，我一遍又一遍地看到一种趋势，现在公司增长放缓变得更加突出，这对很多企业来说都是不可避免的，发生的原因有多种。

We're not going to go into the reasons as to why growth can be slowing down and then they hire a shiny growth head to fix the problem, to basically saying, "Our business is slowing down.

我们不会探究增长放缓的原因，然后他们聘请一位闪亮的增长主管来解决问题，基本上是说，“我们的业务正在放缓。

We are on the decline.

我们正在走下坡路。

We're going to bring this person, or we're going to put this team together and our growth is going to accelerate." That just does not happen.

我们将引进这个人，或者我们将组建这个团队，我们的增长将会加速。”那是不会发生的。

If you have the overall business slowing down, your head of growth is destined to fail because the reason business is slowing down is much deeper than not having a growth team.

如果你的整体业务放缓，你的增长主管注定会失败，因为业务放缓的原因比没有增长团队要深刻得多。

Elena Verna: Growth team can optimize, growth can maybe lift it by 10, 15%.

Elena Verna：增长团队可以优化，增长可能可以提升 10%、15%。

Maybe that's enough for you.

也许这对你来说就足够了。

Even that is on the upper end of what growth team will be able to do if there is a slow-down trajectory.

即使存在放缓的轨迹，这也只是增长团队能够做到的上限。

But what's important is that if you have core product and core marketing issues, growth team will not be able to fix them for you.

但重要的是，如果你有核心产品和核心营销问题，增长团队将无法为你解决它们。

You're going to have to address the big elephant in the room as to why business is slowing down in the first place as opposed to just plopping a growth team on the issue and expecting them to do miracles while the rest of the business continues chugging on the same trajectory that caused the slowdown in the first place.

你必须解决房间里的大大象为什么业务首先会放缓，而不是仅仅让一个增长团队来解决这个问题并期望他们创造奇迹，而其他业务则继续沿着最初导致业务放缓的相同轨道前进。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, I've never heard this point before and it's such an important one and it's very related to your first point.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，我以前从未听说过这一点，它非常重要，而且与你的第一点非常相关。

Growth isn't going to build a product people want, they will help you grow it

增长不会创造人们想要的产品，他们会帮助你发展它

Lenny Rachitsky: If your business is slowing, your product market fit basically might be disappearing and growth isn't solving that problem.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您的业务正在放缓，那么您的产品市场契合度基本上可能会消失，而增长并不能解决这个问题。

Elena Verna: Disappearing, it may be degrading, it may be being eaten by a competitor because there's somebody that is stomping on your territory.

Elena Verna：消失，可能是有辱人格的，也可能被竞争对手吃掉，因为有人侵犯了你的领地。

The point is growth can amplify great product market fit and growth can help you grow faster once you are already growing.

关键是增长可以放大产品的市场契合度，而一旦你已经在增长，增长可以帮助你更快地增长。

But if you are slowing down and you have issues with either your go-to-market strategy or your core product strategy with your core product market fit, growth is going to be absolutely helpless to do anything.

但如果你放慢脚步，并且你的上市策略或核心产品策略与核心产品市场契合度存在问题，那么增长将绝对无能为力。

And it's honestly, it's a huge waste of money because at those size of the companies, you would make fairly large growth teams in order to tackle every single product flow and interface that is already out there and invented.

老实说，这是一种巨大的资金浪费，因为在公司的规模下，你会组建相当大的增长团队，以解决已经存在和发明的每一个产品流程和界面。

Elena Verna: It's a huge expense.

Elena Verna：这是一笔巨大的开支。

ROI on it, maybe at least one to one.

投资回报率，也许至少是一对一的。

What you put into it, you might get that much out of it, but it's not going to be enough to create a J curve of the reacceleration by just relying on growth team.

你投入什么，你可能会得到那么多，但仅仅依靠增长团队并不足以创造出重新加速的J曲线。

I think it's just like this is where the name growth team plays against it because, "We're looking for growth.

我认为这就是名称增长团队与之对抗的地方，因为“我们正在寻求增长。

Do you have a growth team?" No. I don't have a better idea by the way how to name it, but this is where I think it's misunderstood that there's the silver bullet of a perfect head of growth, perfect growth team that can reverse the trajectory of the business.

你们有成长团队吗？”不，我没有更好的想法如何命名它，但我认为这是被误解的地方，完美的增长主管、完美的增长团队是可以扭转业务轨迹的灵丹妙药。

Lenny Rachitsky: Then for folks that are thinking about, "Wow, maybe I should be hiring head of growth," when should you hire head of growth?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么对于那些正在思考“哇，也许我应该聘请增长主管”的人来说，你应该什么时候聘请增长主管？

When you're an established company,

当你是一家成熟的公司时，

Elena Verna: If you are declining in your revenue growth or whatever other metric that you're looking at, your weekly active users or whatnot, see at least that you're able to plateau it so you can stop the decline.

Elena Verna：如果你的收入增长或你所关注的任何其他指标、你的每周活跃用户或其他指标正在下降，至少要看到你能够稳定增长，这样你就可以阻止下降。

There is already a visible trajectory that your core product and your core marketing teams are able to at least reverse the degradation of the metrics.

已经有一个明显的轨迹表明您的核心产品和核心营销团队至少能够扭转指标的退化。

Ideally, you would even start to see some immediate signs of life that there is potential in the business, in the pockets, and then you can put growth into it to really blow it up to the full extent.

理想情况下，你甚至会开始看到一些直接的生命迹象，表明业务中有潜力，口袋里有潜力，然后你可以将增长投入其中，真正将其发挥到最大程度。

But if you are on a decline, just don't do it because there's going to be very disappointing results in the year or so.

但如果你的业绩正在下滑，那就不要这样做，因为一年左右的时间将会出现非常令人失望的结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Great one, let's move on.

太好了，让我们继续前进。

Number three.

第三。

Elena Verna: Number three, this is my favorite, and it might be a little spicy because if there's any marketers listening out here, but doing rebrand more specifically, homepage redesign to drive growth.

Elena Verna：第三，这是我最喜欢的，它可能有点辣，因为如果有任何营销人员在这里倾听，但更具体地说，进行品牌重塑，主页重新设计以推动增长。

This is what hurts me so much and I've lived through so many of these and never ever once have I seen a rebrand or redesign, especially a UK marketing site, produce good performance results.

这让我深受伤害，我经历过很多这样的事情，但我从未见过重塑品牌或重新设计，特别是英国营销网站，产生良好的绩效结果。

Now, there's many reasons as to why you might want to do a rebrand, why you might want to design your marketing site because you're trying to enter a new market, new category, your product has evolved and you need to do a full update.

现在，有很多原因可以解释为什么您可能想要进行品牌重塑，为什么您可能想要设计营销网站，因为您正在尝试进入新市场、新类别，您的产品已经发展并且需要进行全面更新。

But those are almost like it's a logging indicator that something needs to change and you're changing it and then you know that you're going to have to optimize the hell out of it in order to actually bring it even to the previous performance results.

但这些几乎就像是一个日志指示器，表明某些内容需要更改，并且您正在更改它，然后您知道您将必须对其进行彻底优化，以便真正使其达到以前的性能结果。

Elena Verna: It's like a stepping stone back, but there is a much bigger room for upside that you can get to, but you are going to have to work to get to that upside.

Elena Verna：这就像一块后退的踏脚石，但你可以达到更大的上升空间，但你必须努力才能实现这一上升空间。

But yet so many companies, there's a story that happens all the time.

但在如此多的公司中，这样的故事却一直在发生。

I hire a new CMO, new CMO comes in, they're like, "What's inside my house here?

我聘请了一位新的 CMO，新的 CMO 进来，他们会说，“我的房子里有什么？

My house is not designed to my liking.

我的房子不是按照我的喜好设计的。

Let me repaint these walls.

让我重新粉刷这些墙壁。

I want this shade of blue.

我想要这种蓝色。

Let me put the couches over here." And they start almost designing their website or designing the brand as if it was reflection of their personal taste.

我把沙发放这儿吧。”他们几乎开始设计他们的网站或设计品牌，就好像这是他们个人品味的反映。

And oftentimes it's promised with our acquisition is going to go up, our category penetration is going to go up, our education or awareness is going to go up.

通常情况下，我们的收购承诺将会增加，我们的品类渗透率将会上升，我们的教育或意识将会上升。

Elena Verna: And it never materializes into anything meaningful because again, if you're doing it as a step towards unlocking new global maxima, sure, I love that.

Elena Verna：它永远不会变成任何有意义的东西，因为同样，如果你这样做是为了解锁新的全球最大值，当然，我喜欢这一点。

Do it.

做吧。

Go after it.

去追吧。

Know that you have a ton of work ahead of you in order to actually unlock that global maxima.

要知道，为了真正解锁全球最大值，您还有大量工作要做。

But to ever promise a homepage redesign or marketing site redesign in order to drive more acquisition is a failed promise that is going to be led by lots of agency money spending, often a million dollars plus, lots of arguing about which shade of blue your brand color is going to be, and eight to 10 months at the minimum of development and very lackluster results afterwards.

但是，为了推动更多收购而承诺重新设计主页或重新设计营销网站是一个失败的承诺，这将是由于大量的代理资金支出（通常超过一百万美元）、关于您的品牌颜色将采用哪种蓝色的大量争论、以及至少八到十个月的开发和随后非常黯淡的结果而导致的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, I'm loving this list already.

Lenny Rachitsky：天哪，我已经喜欢上了这个清单。

This is great.

这太棒了。

To your point, it may still be worth doing if you're coming into it eyes wide open, this isn't going to drive growth, but we're setting ourselves up for a future brand that's world-class and we know our current brand stinks and our homepage needs to be refreshed.

就你的观点而言，如果你睁大眼睛进入它，这可能仍然值得做，这不会推动增长，但我们正在为一个世界级的未来品牌做好准备，我们知道我们当前的品牌很糟糕，我们的主页需要刷新。

If you're aware, it's not going to drive growth, it might be okay.

如果你意识到，它不会推动增长，那可能没问题。

Elena Verna: Every single time I've seen a marketing site at least rebrand, it's been a step back in performance that then is being treated as a fire drill to fix.

Elena Verna：每次我看到营销网站至少重新命名时，都会出现性能倒退，然后将其视为需要修复的消防演习。

Just don't do it if you expect immediate results out of it, or at least educate the team on how long it's going to take to get to the point where you think that there's going to be upside away from your original brand.

如果您期望立即获得结果，或者至少让团队了解需要多长时间才能达到您认为与原始品牌相比有优势的地步，请不要这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've experienced this not just with marketing sites, but most redesigns.

Lenny Rachitsky：我不仅在营销网站上经历过这种情况，而且在大多数重新设计中也经历过这种情况。

Redesign of the product.

产品的重新设计。

Elena Verna: Product redesign.

Elena Verna：产品重新设计。

How much product and engineering work comes into just changing a logo in your product or changing colors?

仅更改产品中的徽标或更改颜色需要多少产品和工程工作？

It's insane.

太疯狂了。

With no results ever, there's no results.

没有结果，就没有结果。

Lenny Rachitsky: And to your point, it's like, "We've spent six months redoing onboarding.

Lenny Rachitsky：就您而言，就像是，“我们花了六个月的时间重新进行入职培训。

Everything we've built builds on this new design and experience, we can't not launch it.

我们所构建的一切都建立在这种新的设计和体验之上，我们不能不推出它。

Every team is working on this new world, we're just going to launch it and then we're going to claw back.

每个团队都在致力于这个新世界，我们只是要推出它，然后我们就会收回成本。

We're going to figure out how to get it back." That's how it goes.

我们会想办法把它找回来。”事情就是这样。

Elena Verna: It's a new starting point and that starting point is going to be much lower than your current optimized experience that you have.

Elena Verna：这是一个新的起点，这个起点将比您当前的优化体验低得多。

Whether it's well optimized or not optimized, it doesn't matter.

无论优化得好还是优化得不好，都没有关系。

It's gone through some level of optimization versus rebrand is always a shot in the dark.

它经历了一定程度的优化，而品牌重塑始终是盲目的尝试。

It might be prettier, sure, but that doesn't mean it's going to perform well.

当然，它可能会更漂亮，但这并不意味着它会表现良好。

Obviously never say never.

显然永远不要说永远。

Sometimes it might work, and if it worked for you, I am so glad.

有时它可能会起作用，如果它对你有用，我很高兴。

But that's an outlier and don't treat it as a pattern.

但这是一个异常值，不要将其视为一种模式。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I was just going to say, I think everyone listening to this that is working on something like this is probably thinking, "No, I think we have a good shot at this."

Lenny Rachitsky：我只是想说，我想每个正在听这个的正在做类似事情的人可能都会想，“不，我认为我们有很好的机会做到这一点。”

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

is working on something like this is probably thinking, "No, I think we have a good shot at this.

正在做这样的事情可能会想，“不，我认为我们有很好的机会。

We've really thought deeply about this and it might actually be really positive." In your experience, it sounds like you've seen it work occasionally, or is it just never?

我们确实对此进行了深入思考，这实际上可能是非常积极的。”根据您的经验，听起来您偶尔会看到它起作用，还是从来没有？

Elena Verna: The best I've ever seen is that it produced net neutral results and it produced us better ability to optimize towards something bigger.

Elena Verna：我见过的最好的结果是它产生了净中性结果，并且使我们能够更好地优化更大的东西。

That's the best case scenario.

这是最好的情况。

So if you're working on it, my biggest advice is not to say you stop.

因此，如果你正在努力，我最大的建议是不要让你停下来。

Just understand that the goal here is not to drive at launch, in the seven-day readout after launch, some increased performance.

只要明白，这里的目标不是在发射时驱动，在发射后的 7 天读数中，性能有所提高。

Elena Verna: The goal here should be, we will launch, we will probably see a hit, model out and forecast for a hit, and then give yourself two to three months at the minimum, ideally more like six months, to really optimize it back to a good standing where it can potentially outperform.

Elena Verna：这里的目标应该是，我们将推出，我们可能会看到一个热门产品，模型和预测一个热门产品，然后给自己至少两到三个月的时间，理想情况下更像是六个月，以真正优化它回到一个有可能超越的良好地位。

But you need to bake in that three to six months of work after the launch, which is what a lot of companies and teams forget to do because they just move on.

但你需要在发布后进行三到六个月的工作，这是很多公司和团队忘记做的事情，因为他们只是继续前进。

Because it's like big initiative, big pop, and off we go to our next project.

因为这就像一个大倡议、大流行，然后我们就开始下一个项目。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that we're only at number three.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴我们只排名第三。

This is amazing.

这太棒了。

Let's do number four.

我们来做第四点吧。

Elena Verna: Okay.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：好的。

Number four is obsessing over your competition.

第四是关注你的竞争。

Okay, so there's a little bit of a gotcha here.

好吧，这里有一点问题。

I tear down companies all the time.

我一直在拆毁公司。

I have thousands of Gmail accounts that I sign up for any and every product.

我有数千个 Gmail 帐户，我为任何产品注册了这些帐户。

I go through their entire experience.

我经历了他们的整个经历。

I look at their monetization strategies.

我研究了他们的盈利策略。

I look at their activation.

我看看他们的激活情况。

I do it across direct competition of the company that I'm working with as well.

我也是在与我合作的公司的直接竞争中这样做的。

I want to know what I'm playing against.

我想知道我正在对抗什么。

Elena Verna: So knowing what your competition is doing is extremely important.

Elena Verna：因此了解竞争对手在做什么非常重要。

Being inspired by some aspects of what your competition is doing in their experience is a wonderful place to originate an ideation or potentially try to implement into your product as well.

受到竞争对手在他们的经验中所做的某些方面的启发，是产生想法或可能尝试将其实施到您的产品中的绝佳场所。

But blatantly saying, "Hey, we're going to copy all of these best tactics or all of these flows because, hey, they're doing better than us.

但公然地说，“嘿，我们将复制所有这些最佳策略或所有这些流程，因为，嘿，他们比我们做得更好。

Let's just rip them and do exactly the same.

让我们把它们撕下来并做同样的事情。

Why isn't our onboarding looks the same as this onboarding?

为什么我们的入门看起来与这个入门不一样？

This company is so successful."

这家公司是如此成功。”

Elena Verna: That's where things really go wrong because every single experience is very unique to their customer, to their channel.

Elena Verna：这就是真正出错的地方，因为每一次体验对于他们的客户和他们的渠道来说都是非常独特的。

You don't even know if you're getting their actual experience or you use some tester cell or you're getting some personalized thing based on where you signed up from, who you said that you are.

你甚至不知道你是否获得了他们的实际体验，或者你使用了一些测试单元，或者你是否根据你的注册地点和你所说的身份获得了一些个性化的东西。

So you don't even know what actually the overall thing looks like most of the time and putting that into your product, it just leads to very subpar results.

因此，大多数时候您甚至不知道整体情况实际上是什么样子，并将其放入您的产品中，只会导致非常糟糕的结果。

And there's a lot of drive, especially to have it as a shortcut.

而且有很多动力，尤其是把它作为捷径。

"Okay, we don't want to go through this ideation or user research.

“好吧，我们不想经历这个构思或用户研究。

We don't want to do user interviews, but we don't want to do A/B testing.

我们不想进行用户访谈，但我们也不想进行 A/B 测试。

It works for them.

这对他们有用。

It must work for us.

它必须对我们有用。

Let's just go and do it." And it fails 95% of the time.

我们就去做吧。”而且 95% 的情况下都会失败。

Elena Verna: Now, there are certain pieces that I would rightly recommend.

Elena Verna：现在，我会正确地推荐某些作品。

I already said inspiration.

我已经说过灵感了。

I use it for inspiration all the time.

我一直用它来获取灵感。

I'm like, "Okay, what's cool?

我想，“好吧，有什么酷的吗？

What is everybody doing?" So because I want to just stay in the know on what other people are implementing and hopefully if it's in the control experience, it works and it worked better.

大家都在做什么？”因为我只想了解其他人正在实施的内容，并希望如果它在控制体验中，它会有效，而且效果会更好。

I use web archives a ton for locked out pages too.

我也大量使用网络档案来锁定页面。

I'm like, okay, how did it look last year?

我想，好吧，去年看起来怎么样？

Why does their whole page look this way, or the pricing page?

为什么他们的整个页面或者定价页面看起来是这样的？

And I analyze that and I try to extrapolate some results.

我对此进行了分析，并尝试推断出一些结果。

Elena Verna: I also think that there is a lot of patterns you start to notice as you start tearing down all of these companies.

Elena Verna：我还认为，当你开始拆除所有这些公司时，你会开始注意到很多模式。

You're like, "Oh, these elements are always the same." That means all of these companies are arriving to these things and they seem to be winning elements.

你会想，“哦，这些元素总是一样的。”这意味着所有这些公司都在实现这些目标，而且它们似乎正在成为制胜要素。

And you can take those elements and put them into your product, but you can never skip the ideation, the design, the user research, the customer interview, the experimentation step.

你可以将这些元素放入你的产品中，但你永远不能跳过构思、设计、用户研究、客户访谈、实验步骤。

Elena Verna: And you should always balance it with actually innovating yourself in your product.

Elena Verna：您应该始终在产品创新与实际创新之间取得平衡。

Because copying competition is like the fastest way to mediocrity because you'll never be a leader if you copied somebody else.

因为模仿竞争就像走向平庸的最快途径，因为如果你模仿别人，你永远不会成为领导者。

Leader is by default is somebody that is able to separate themselves from the pack in something else.

默认情况下，领导者是能够在其他方面脱颖而出的人。

And if you are trying to just be, I don't know who is ever trying to be the mediocre middle of the pack, but maybe it's a good starting point, but never the end goal.

如果你想成为平庸的人，我不知道谁曾试图成为平庸的中间人，但也许这是一个很好的起点，但永远不是最终目标。

Elena Verna: The only other thing that I'll say before I'll stop talking is benchmarks.

Elena Verna：在我停止谈论之前我要说的唯一一件事是基准。

Benchmarks are also very dangerous here to use because benchmarks are usually done on all of the competition, on all of the softwares out there.

在这里使用基准测试也是非常危险的，因为基准测试通常是针对所有竞争对手、所有软件进行的。

And the way people define numbers is so different from company to company.

人们定义数字的方式因公司而异。

Even if you look as something as simple as signups.

即使您看起来像注册一样简单。

Okay, how many signups should you be on average getting?

好的，您平均应该有多少注册人数？

Or your conversion from prospecting visitor to a signup?

或者您从潜在访客到注册的转化？

Or from a signup to activated user?

或者从注册到激活用户？

It's so depends on how do you define prospect visitor?

这取决于您如何定义潜在访客？

Some companies define it as all traffic.

有些公司将其定义为所有流量。

Some define it as new traffic.

有些人将其定义为新流量。

Some of them define it on the new IP address, new persistent id.

其中一些将其定义在新的 IP 地址、新的持久 ID 上。

How Google analytics defines it.

谷歌分析如何定义它。

How Amplitude defines it.

振幅如何定义它。

Elena Verna: So all of these definitions are so different.

Elena Verna：所有这些定义都非常不同。

So taking also any benchmark that is derived from competition and saying, "This is where we should be," is also so dangerous because it might not even be applicable depending on how you define the metric.

因此，采用任何来自竞争的基准并说“这就是我们应该做的”也是非常危险的，因为它甚至可能不适用，具体取决于您如何定义指标。

And one of the things that all of those benchmarking data fails is to actually look at specific definitions.

所有这些基准测试数据失败的事情之一就是实际查看特定的定义。

And that's not to say that benchmarks are not extremely valuable data point in your decision making because it's an input that you should leverage to say what it could be possible.

这并不是说基准在您的决策中不是非常有价值的数据点，因为您应该利用它来说明可能发生的事情。

But to just blindly it and set it is just a sure way to fail any of your initiatives and efforts.

但盲目地设定它肯定会导致你的任何举措和努力失败。

Lenny Rachitsky: You're telling me that there's no shortcuts?

Lenny Rachitsky：你是说没有捷径？

Elena Verna: I wish there were.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：我希望有。

I mean, I've been doing this for over 15 years.

我的意思是，我这样做已经超过 15 年了。

If there were any shortcuts, I'd be all over them.

如果有什么捷径的话，我会全力以赴。

There are patterns and there are frameworks, but there's no shortcuts.

有模式、有框架，但没有捷径。

Lenny Rachitsky: So people hearing this, they're like, "Okay, don't copy the competition.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以人们听到这个，他们会说，“好吧，不要模仿竞争对手。

Use it for inspiration." It's a little hard to know exactly the line between those two.

用它来获取灵感。”确切地知道两者之间的界限有点​​困难。

Is there an example that you can think of where you took really interesting inspiration from someone and it worked for a company you're working with?

您是否能想到一个例子，您从某人那里获得了非常有趣的灵感，并且它对您正在合作的公司起作用？

Or you copied someone and it's just like, "Oh, that failed.

或者你抄袭了某人，结果就像是，“哦，那失败了。

That was a bad idea."

那是个坏主意。”

Elena Verna: I use competition to understand the general framework of how people collect some information or resolve certain steps.

Elena Verna：我通过竞争来了解人们如何收集某些信息或解决某些步骤的总体框架。

So, for example, a sharing model so many products like, "Hey, can you share this with somebody?" Well, you can go and spend so much time of figuring out how it should look.

例如，许多产品都采用共享模式，例如“嘿，你能与某人分享这个吗？”好吧，你可以花很多时间来弄清楚它应该是什么样子。

Or you can go to Slack, you can go to Figma, you can go to Nero, you can go to Notion.

或者你可以去 Slack，你可以去 Figma，你可以去 Nero，你可以去 Notion。

Like, okay, Google, how are they doing sharing model?

就像，好吧，谷歌，他们的共享模式做得怎么样？

You can look at all of that and say, "Okay, here's all of the common elements that all of them have.

您可以查看所有这些内容并说：“好吧，这是它们所有的共同元素。

Here's the pieces that I think will apply to my product.

以下是我认为适用于我的产品的部分。

Here's things that do not, and here's what I can derive from it."

这是没有的东西，这是我可以从中得出的东西。”

Elena Verna: I use it as an input into ideation, but I never use it as a destination for the result, if that makes sense.

Elena Verna：我用它作为构思的输入，但我从不用它作为结果的目的地，如果这有意义的话。

Because it's very helpful to not start from scratch.

因为不用从头开始是非常有帮助的。

The empty start problem is real and competition is a wonderful way to not have that and to have input into it, but never to just say, "Oh, we can skip the design cycle off we go," or, "Just slap our colors on it.

空洞的开始问题是真实存在的，竞争是一种很好的方式，可以避免这种情况并对其进行投入，但永远不要只是说，“哦，我们可以跳过设计周期，”或者，“只需在上面涂上我们的颜色即可。

If it works for them, it's going to work for us." So I have extensive Nero boards with everybody's onboarding flows, with everybody's pricing pages, their sharing model, their invite colleagues models that I reference all the time.

如果这对他们有效，那么对我们也同样有效。”因此，我有大量的 Nero 面板，其中包含每个人的入职流程、每个人的定价页面、他们的共享模型、我一直参考的邀请同事模型。

Elena Verna: But they've never been the exact thing that I would use for any company as opposed to say, "Hey, I think this is a great starting point for you.

Elena Verna：但它们从来都不是我为任何公司使用的确切东西，而不是说，“嘿，我认为这对你来说是一个很好的起点。

Here are the things that I think will work very well for your company and for your product and take these elements.

我认为以下这些对您的公司和产品非常有效，并采用这些要素。

The rest you need to go and do themselves, so at least that way there's a starting point."

剩下的事情你需要自己去做，这样至少有一个起点。”

Elena Verna: And this is why I also started doing a lot more of my own, almost, prototypes, like skeletons of here's the elements that you should do in these flows.

Elena Verna：这就是为什么我也开始做更多我自己的原型，就像你应该在这些流程中做的元素的骨架一样。

I have one for pricing page, I have one for homepage, but you need to put in your own into it, in order for it to actually work.

我有一个用于定价页面，我有一个用于主页，但您需要将自己的内容放入其中，才能使其实际工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: What made me realize this back in the day was thinking at Airbnb, especially, thinking about people looking at our flow and being like, they've got it all figured out.

Lenny Rachitsky：当时让我意识到这一点的是对 Airbnb 的思考，尤其是当人们看到我们的流程后会觉得，他们已经把一切都弄清楚了。

We're just going to copy what they've done, so thoughtful and have tested everything.

我们只是要复制他们所做的事情，非常周到并且已经测试了所有内容。

And knowing how that has not happened and how so much of this was guesswork and we hate so much of it.

我们知道为什么这种情况没有发生，而且其中有这么多都是猜测，而我们非常讨厌它。

Just thinking about people trying to copy this thinking we know what we're doing.

只要想想人们试图复制这种想法，我们就知道我们在做什么。

It's like, "What are you guys even thinking?"

就像，“你们到底在想什么？”

Elena Verna: Oh my God, I actually had that happen to me.

Elena Verna：天哪，我真的遇到过这种事。

At Dropbox not so long ago, somebody reached out and they're like, "Oh, I looked." It was like some page on activation flow and they're like, "Oh, I love this page.

不久前，在 Dropbox，有人伸出手来，他们说：“哦，我看了。”这就像激活流程上的某个页面，他们会说，“哦，我喜欢这个页面。

This is so cool.

这太酷了。

I love what you've done here.

我喜欢你在这里所做的一切。

I'm going to go take it to my company." I'm like, "We haven't touched it in 10 years.

我要去我公司拿一下。”我想，“我们已经 10 年没有碰过它了。

This page is only visible for small cohort of people.

此页面仅对一小群人可见。

Please don't do it.

请不要这样做。

Please don't copy it.

请不要复制它。

It performs like shit.

它的表现就像屎一样。

I know it's out there, but it's not meant to be out there.

我知道它就在那里，但它不应该在那里。

Nobody thoughtfully put it out there." So that's definitely a huge failure point that you can run into.

没有人深思熟虑地将它放在那里。”所以这绝对是你可能遇到的一个巨大的失败点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Right, if it's like a fancy company, assume they're just so smart and diligent about every little pixel and decision.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，如果它像一家高档公司，假设他们对每一个小像素和决策都非常聪明和勤奋。

Elena Verna: If people only knew of how much craziness is happening in those big companies and how much chaos there is.

Elena Verna：如果人们只知道那些大公司发生了多少疯狂以及有多少混乱就好了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh man, that's a whole other podcast episode.

Lenny Rachitsky：天哪，那是另一集播客。

Elena Verna: Okay, I have this one.

Elena Verna：好的，我有这个。

It's a little bit Meta, but I see it happening all the time.

这有点元，但我看到它一直在发生。

We love to think that our problems are unique.

我们喜欢认为我们的问题是独一无二的。

I'm working in this company and we have this gross problem and we need to go and figure out the solution from the grounds up.

我在这家公司工作，我们遇到了这个严重的问题，我们需要从头开始找出解决方案。

Maybe this is a little bit related to the competition point, but I'm very sorry to break it to all of you, but your problem is not unique.

也许这与比赛点有一点关系，但我很抱歉向大家透露，但你的问题并不是唯一的。

I am 99% sure of that.

我对此有 99% 的把握。

Your problem has been felt by somebody somewhere in probably many, many places and you trying to re-engineer solution is time lost to market and has a huge opportunity cost.

你的问题可能已经在很多很多地方的某个地方有人感受到了，而你试图重新设计解决方案会浪费市场时间，并且会产生巨大的机会成本。

Elena Verna: So my biggest thing that I try to get people is don't think that you have unique problems.

Elena Verna：所以我试图让人们做的最重要的事情就是不要认为你有独特的问题。

You don't.

你不知道。

I know we love to.

我知道我们喜欢这样做。

It'd be fun to have something unique to learn, but with so many startups, with so many people in our industry, in your industry, whichever industry that is, your problem has been solved by somebody.

学习一些独特的东西会很有趣，但是有这么多的初创公司，有这么多的人在我们的行业，在你的行业，无论是哪个行业，你的问题已经被某人解决了。

Or at least that there's a lot of failures on the problem that you should be learning from.

或者至少在这个问题上有很多失败的案例值得你学习。

And number one thing that whenever you have an initiative or whenever you have a metric that you need to go and move, to not start from scratch, ever.

第一件事是，每当您有一项计划或每当您有一个指标需要进行移动时，永远不要从头开始。

Do not start from scratch.

不要从头开始。

It's the worst thing that you can do because you can waste so many cycles on trying to do something that probably has already been solved, which means how do you approach this as a result?

这是你能做的最糟糕的事情，因为你可能会浪费很多周期来尝试做一些可能已经解决的事情，这意味着你如何处理这个结果？

Elena Verna: Well, you can look at competition and how they're solving the problem.

Elena Verna：嗯，你可以看看竞争以及他们如何解决问题。

That's one input, for sure.

当然，这只是一种输入。

You should go find people that have solved this problem because there are people there and people love to talk about what they do.

你应该去找已经解决了这个问题的人，因为那里有人并且人们喜欢谈论他们所做的事情。

So take advantage of that human psychology and go find those people and just ask them, "How did you do it?

因此，利用人类的心理，去找那些人，问他们，“你是怎么做到的？

What did you do?

你做了什么？

What happened?" Obviously, not all the time everybody's going to respond, but we have LinkedIn, we have X.

发生什么事了？”显然，并不是所有时候每个人都会做出回应，但我们有 LinkedIn，我们有 X。

Go out there, find the people that you think or ask around in your network of who you think might have similar solutions and just go talk to people.

走出去，找到你认为或在你的网络中询问的人，你认为他们可能有类似的解决方案，然后去与人们交谈。

It would be incredible shortcut if you're talking about an actual hack that is a hack to get to an optimal solution.

如果您谈论的是实际的黑客攻击，即获得最佳解决方案的黑客攻击，那么这将是令人难以置信的捷径。

Elena Verna: And then the last thing that I would also say is that solving any one problem uniquely is extremely inefficient.

Elena Verna：我还要说的最后一件事是，单独解决任何一个问题的效率极低。

We are evolving so fast in our market, you need to be able to patternize your solutions.

我们的市场发展如此之快，您需要能够对您的解决方案进行模式化。

Patternize, is that a word?

图案化，是一个词吗？

Elena Verna: Make patterns.

Elena Verna：制作图案。

Make patterns out of your solutions.

从你的解决方案中找出模式。

So more you can stop looking at as a unique data point or unique problem and more as there is, I need to fit it into existing pattern or I need to figure out the framework on how to solve not only this problem but other problems.

因此，您可以不再将其视为独特的数据点或独特的问题，而且更多的是，我需要将其适应现有模式，或者我需要找出如何解决这个问题和其他问题的框架。

The faster you'll be able to get at least to like 60% of the solution there.

越快，您就能获得至少 60% 的解决方案。

And then you can do very authentic implementation of whatever you want to do.

然后你就可以非常真实地实现你想做的任何事情。

But to go from zero to 60 manually, as a one-off, we do not have time in the industry right now to do it, unless you want to be left behind.

但要手动从 0 到 60 一次性完成，我们行业目前没有时间这样做，除非您想落后。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bam.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：嘭。

Powerful words.

有力的话语。

Is there an example that comes to mind of you doing this either the wrong way of just thinking this was unique and realizing I should have talked to people, or where you actually realized something was not unique?

您是否想到过一个例子，您这样做的方式是错误的，只是认为这是独一无二的，并意识到我应该与人们交谈，或者您实际上意识到某些东西并不独特？

Elena Verna: I'll give you actually an example that I had when I was at Nero.

Elena Verna：我给你举一个我在 Nero 时的例子。

At Nero, we were first trying to stand up community, and I was tasked to do it, and I've never done it before.

在 Nero，我们首先尝试维护社区，我的任务就是做到这一点，但我以前从未这样做过。

So I was banging my head around against the wall and I'm like, "Okay, how do I do it?

所以我把头撞在墙上，然后我就想，“好吧，我该怎么做呢？

What software do we use?

我们使用什么软件？

Where do we acquire users?

我们从哪里获取用户？

What kind of content is going to go in there?"

里面会包含什么样的内容？”

Elena Verna: So I was approaching it almost like a finding product market fit, and I will fail so much doing it.

Elena Verna：所以我几乎就像寻找适合市场的产品一样对待它，但我会失败很多。

And I honestly only have a year to get to some sort of traction before this is going to get shut down because company is impatient, company is moving fast.

老实说，在这家公司被关闭之前，我只有一年的时间来获得某种牵引力，因为公司不耐烦，公司进展迅速。

So if this is going to be a failure point, it's either going to be taken away from me, which is fair, or we is going to close the door on it, which would be a huge failure both on my point and for company as a whole.

因此，如果这将成为一个失败点，那么它要么会被从我身边夺走，这是公平的，要么我们将关闭它的大门，这对我的观点和整个公司来说都是一个巨大的失败。

Elena Verna: So I went and I started talking to a bunch of people that have done communities, and I remember talking to Caroline from Atlassian who has stood up community.

Elena Verna：所以我去了，开始与一群做过社区的人交谈，我记得与来自 Atlassian 的 Caroline 交谈过，她建立了社区。

I actually hired her as an advisor afterwards and she's like, "Well, are you talking about a user community or an agency community or a partner community?" And I'm like, my mind was blown.

后来我实际上聘请了她作为顾问，她说：“好吧，你在谈论用户社区、代理社区还是合作伙伴社区？”我想，我的心被震撼了。

I'm like, "I even considering all of these angles because I was just literally thinking about users only." And she's like, "Well, you shouldn't necessarily start with the user community.

我想，“我什至考虑了所有这些角度，因为我实际上只考虑了用户。”她说：“好吧，你不一定从用户社区开始。

If you want some results out of it, go to agency or partner communities first." She would applying it to me in a structural way for me to grasp my head around it and then implement something that had much better results at the end that I wouldn't even gotten to probably until six, eight months later, if I didn't talk to her.

如果你想从中得到一些结果，请先去代理机构或合作伙伴社区。”她会以一种结构性的方式将它应用到我身上，让我抓住我的头脑，然后实施一些最终会产生更好结果的东西，如果我不和她说话，我什至可能要到六、八个月后才能实现。

Elena Verna: So I think it has to come with a place of knowing that you don't know everything and humility to say, "Hey, I need help," and I might have a already fancy title.

Elena Verna：所以我认为必须知道自己并不知道一切，并且谦虚地说：“嘿，我需要帮助”，而且我可能已经有了一个很漂亮的头衔。

At that point, I was an interim CMO at Nero and I'm like, "I don't know how to do this." And it actually earns you a lot more credit than you think.

那时，我是 Nero 的临时首席营销官，我想，“我不知道该怎么做。”它实际上为你赢得了比你想象的更多的荣誉。

And a lot of people are afraid to admit that they don't know how to solve a problem and that's why they start from scratch.

很多人害怕承认他们不知道如何解决问题，这就是他们从头开始的原因。

But you need to really put your ego aside and get some help faster than trying to hit every single failure point along the way.

但你需要真正把你的自我放在一边，更快地获得一些帮助，而不是试图解决一路上的每一个失败点。

Lenny Rachitsky: And the thing that'll really hurt your ego is failing.

Lenny Rachitsky：真正伤害你自尊的事情就是失败。

And so the more you could do to avoid failing and being successful with this initiative by talking to people, doing research.

因此，你可以通过与人们交谈、进行研究来避免这一举措的失败和成功。

Elena Verna: And to be fair, failure is going to be unavoidable.

Elena Verna：公平地说，失败是不可避免的。

If you talk about growth, growth is about failure.

如果你谈论成长，成长就是失败。

My big motto, life motto on growth is that you have to fail to learn.

我的座右铭，关于成长的人生座右铭是，你必须从失败中学习。

You can't just constantly succeed.

你不能只是不断地成功。

Success is an output of a lot of failures, but the question is, how much time do you have to fail?

成功是大量失败的结果，但问题是，你还要失败多少时间？

And a lot of times we don't realize how many failure cycles we're going to have to go through before we get a success, and that company, or even market, has no time for that.

很多时候，我们没有意识到在获得成功之前我们需要经历多少次失败周期，而公司，甚至市场，没有时间这样做。

So still expect to fail, sure, but the timeline for failures is going to be shortened quite a bit.

因此，当然，仍然预计会失败，但失败的时间将会大大缩短。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so we've gone halfway through your list.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我们已经完成了您的清单的一半。

There's 10 items on this list, right?

这个清单上有 10 项，对吗？

Elena Verna: Yes, yes.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的，是的。

There's 10 items.

有 10 件商品。

Next one is a good one.

下一篇是不错的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm excited to chat with Christina Gilbert, the founder of OneSchema, one of our longtime podcast sponsors.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴能与 OneSchema 的创始人 Christina Gilbert 聊天，OneSchema 是我们的长期播客赞助商之一。

Hi, Christina.

嗨，克里斯蒂娜。

Christina Gilbert: Yes.

克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：是的。

Thank you for having me on, Lenny.

谢谢你邀请我参加，莱尼。

Lenny Rachitsky: What is the latest with OneSchema?

Lenny Rachitsky：OneSchema 的最新动态是什么？

I know you now work with some of my favorite companies like Ramp, Vanta, Scale, and Watershed.

我知道您现在与一些我最喜欢的公司合作，例如 Ramp、Vanta、Scale 和 Watershed。

I heard that you just launched a new product to help product teams import CSVs from especially tricky systems like ERPs.

我听说你们刚刚推出了一款新产品，帮助产品团队从 ERP 等特别棘手的系统导入 CSV。

Christina Gilbert: Yes, so we just launched OneSchema file feeds, which allows you to build an integration with any system in 15 minutes as long as you can export a CSV to an SFTP folder.

Christina Gilbert：是的，所以我们刚刚推出了 OneSchema 文件源，只要您可以将 CSV 导出到 SFTP 文件夹，您就可以在 15 分钟内与任何系统构建集成。

We see our customers all the time getting stuck with hacks and workarounds and the product teams that we work with don't have to turn down prospects because their systems are too hard to integrate with.

我们经常看到我们的客户陷入黑客攻击和解决方法的困境，而与我们合作的产品团队不必因为他们的系统太难集成而拒绝潜在客户。

We allow our customers to offer thousands of integrations without involving their engineering team at all.

我们允许客户提供数千种集成，而无需他们的工程团队参与。

Lenny Rachitsky: I can tell you that if team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to be able to take this off my roadmap and instead use something like OneSchema and not just to build it, but also to maintain it forever?

Lenny Rachitsky：我可以告诉你，如果团队必须构建这样的集成，那么如果能够将其从我的路线图上删除并使用像 OneSchema 这样的东西，并且不仅是构建它，而且还永远维护它，那该有多好？

Christina Gilbert: Absolutely, Lenny.

克里斯蒂娜·吉尔伯特：当然，莱尼。

We've heard so many horror stories of multi-day outages from even just a handful of ad records.

我们已经从少量的广告记录中听到了许多多天停机的恐怖故事。

We are laser-focused on integration reliability to help teams end all of those distractions that come up with integrations.

我们高度关注集成可靠性，以帮助团队消除集成带来的所有干扰。

We have a built-in validation layer that stops any bad data from entering your system, and OneSchema will notify your team immediately of any data that looks incorrect.

我们有一个内置的验证层，可以阻止任何不良数据进入您的系统，并且 OneSchema 将立即通知您的团队任何看起来不正确的数据。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道导入不正确的数据会给您的客户带来各种痛苦，并很快失去他们的信任。

Christina, thank you for joining us and if you want to learn more, head on over to oneschema.co. That's oneschema.co.

克里斯蒂娜，感谢您加入我们，如果您想了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co。那是 oneschema.co。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me summarize the first five real quick and then we'll keep going.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我快速总结一下前五个，然后我们将继续。

So the first is, wait longer than you think to hire a head of growth.

因此，第一件事是，聘用增长主管的时间比你想象的要长。

Wait until you have product market fit, maybe a million, or especially if you're self-serve oriented.

等到您的产品适合市场，也许是一百万个，或者特别是如果您以自助服务为导向。

Lenny Rachitsky: Number two is if your growth is declining, the head of growth won't solve that problem.

Lenny Rachitsky：第二点是，如果你的增长正在下降，增长主管将无法解决这个问题。

First, stop the decline at least.

首先，至少止住下滑。

Third is redesigning your homepage, marketing page.

第三是重新设计你的主页、营销页面。

Rebranding is not only not going to help you grow, it's going to probably hurt growth and slow things down.

品牌重塑不仅不会帮助你成长，而且可能会损害成长并减慢速度。

And so just go into that wide eyes wide open.

所以就睁大眼睛吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: Four is don't just copy the competition and assume they know what they're doing and assume that what they do is going to work for you.

Lenny Rachitsky：四是不要只是复制竞争对手，并假设他们知道自己在做什么，并假设他们所做的会对你有用。

Use it as inspiration.

用它作为灵感。

On the other hand, look at get inspiration from experts, competition, trends, things like that to help you solve your problem, which you think is no one solved before.

另一方面，从专家、竞争、趋势等方面获取灵感，帮助你解决你认为以前没有人解决过的问题。

It turns out every problem you're solving someone has solved in some way, most likely.

事实证明，你正在解决的每个问题很可能已经被某人以某种方式解决了。

Elena Verna: Yes, especially in growth.

Elena Verna：是的，尤其是在增长方面。

I mean, I know this can apply to a lot of product management and to marketing as well, but in growth, when you're talking about how do I lift activation or have a really big drop off between activation and monetization?

我的意思是，我知道这也适用于很多产品管理和营销，但在增长方面，当你谈论如何提升激活或激活和货币化之间有很大的下降时？

These things are a lot more patternized than you would expect them to be, so go and find those patterns as opposed to trying to re-engineer it.

这些东西的模式化程度比你想象的要高得多，所以去寻找这些模式，而不是试图重新设计它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, let's keep going.

好吧，我们继续吧。

Number six.

第六。

Elena Verna: So next one.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：那么下一个。

Next one is a little spicy one too, and that is part of growth you owning some channels.

下一个也有点辣，这是你拥有一些渠道的增长的一部分。

A lot of growth teams own acquisition.

许多增长团队自己收购。

So owning channels and growth prioritizing SEO, SEM, social, is one of the biggest mistakes I think a growth team can do.

因此，我认为增长团队可能犯的最大错误之一是拥有渠道和优先考虑 SEO、SEM、社交的增长。

Now, obviously, I'm not saying don't do SEO, or don't do SEM, so organic search or paid search.

现在，显然，我并不是说不要做 SEO，或者不要做 SEM，即有机搜索或付费搜索。

I'm not saying that.

我不是这么说的。

However, as a growth team, your number one priority is to create your own or your earned channel.

然而，作为一个增长团队，您的首要任务是创建您自己的或您赢得的频道。

So channel that you've earned and that nobody else can compete in but you.

因此，您已经赢得了渠道，除了您之外没有其他人可以参与竞争。

Elena Verna: What do I mean by that?

埃琳娜·维尔纳：我这是什么意思？

When you're doing organic search or paid search, you're making Google richer.

当您进行自然搜索或付费搜索时，您正在使 Google 变得更加丰富。

Great for Google.

非常适合谷歌。

Google is an incredible company, but by dumping money into paid marketing, you are paying them and you're paying for their distribution and access to their distribution.

谷歌是一家令人难以置信的公司，但是通过将资金投入到付费营销中，您正在向他们付费，并且您正在为他们的发行和访问其发行版付费。

If you're doing social too, like you're doing, let's say, Instagram or whatnot, paid advertising in Instagram, that's great, but all of that works on algorithm.

如果你也在做社交，就像你在做的那样，比如说，Instagram 或其他什么，在 Instagram 上做付费广告，那很好，但所有这些都依赖于算法。

An algorithm can giveth, but algorithm can also taketh away at any point.

算法可以给予，但算法也可以在任何时候拿走。

And you have no control because you don't own those channels.

你无法控制，因为你不拥有这些渠道。

You are playing with other players and you're competing against them in somebody else's channel.

您正在与其他玩家一起玩，并在其他人的频道中与他们竞争。

Elena Verna: Now, on the other side, there can be your own earned channel.

Elena Verna：现在，在另一边，您可以拥有自己的免费频道。

What is earned channel?

什么是赚取频道？

It really goes into the concept of product-led growth acquisition, which means you're relying on virality, on word of mouth, on user-generated content in order to attract new acquisition through top of the funnel.

它真正涉及到以产品为主导的增长获取的概念，这意味着您要依靠病毒式传播、口碑传播、用户生成的内容来通过漏斗顶部吸引新的获取。

So why is that earned and why do I put that above, let's say organic search, which is SEO, obviously, is wonderful?

那么为什么这是赚取的，为什么我把它放在上面，比如说有机搜索，即 SEO，显然是很棒的？

But again, search just goes to Google.

但同样，搜索只会转到 Google。

That's great.

那太棒了。

Versus if you build your own user-generated content in your own community, nobody else can compete with you in that.

相比之下，如果您在自己的社区中构建自己的用户生成内容，则没有其他人可以与您竞争。

That is yours.

那是你的。

Your competitors cannot buy their eyeballs.

你的竞争对手无法收买他们的眼球。

Their people are going to be attracting other people.

他们的人民将会吸引其他人。

Elena Verna: Referrals from people to people are everything.

Elena Verna：人与人之间的推荐就是一切。

So, Lenny, if I, let's say I sign up for, say, Superhuman and I invite you into it.

所以，莱尼，如果我，假设我注册了，比如说，超人，我邀请你加入。

That is much stronger acquisition tactic versus you looking for and finding Superhuman, let's say on paid marketing advertisements.

与您寻找和寻找超人相比，这是更强大的获取策略，比方说在付费营销广告上。

And especially with our age right now where search as an interface is changing towards AI interface and the AI interface is giving a lot less credit to all of the content.

尤其是在我们现在的时代，搜索作为界面正在向人工智能界面转变，而人工智能界面对所有内容的信任度大大降低。

Content is almost becoming a database and there's a new UI that is being developed on it.

内容几乎变成了一个数据库，并且正在其上开发新的用户界面。

Before it was Google was the UI, and now AI is coming in with a new UI, and there's not as much control that you have over this new UI that is being developed.

在谷歌之前是用户界面，现在人工智能正在带来新的用户界面，而你对正在开发的新用户界面没有那么多的控制权。

Elena Verna: Focusing on these earned channels that you own becomes the outmost priority.

Elena Verna：专注于您拥有的这些赢得的频道成为最重要的优先事项。

And if you don't have them on your growth roadmap, you are going to be in some really big trouble over the next year to two years because your cost of acquisition is only going to go up.

如果您的增长路线图上没有这些内容，那么您将在未来一到两年内遇到一些非常大的麻烦，因为您的收购成本只会上升。

Your competition and those channel is only going to go up.

您的竞争和这些渠道只会上升。

You're constantly going to be praying to algorithm Gods to giveth your way, but again, they can taketh at any point.

你会不断地祈祷算法之神给你一条路，但同样，他们可以在任何时候采取行动。

And it's really one of those fundamental growth team failure points if they don't spend enough time on virality and user generated content to create their own earned acquisition.

如果他们没有花足够的时间在病毒式传播和用户生成的内容上来创建自己的赢得客户，那么这确实是增长团队的基本失败点之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

Okay.

好的。

This is incredible.

这太不可思议了。

This is its own podcast episode in theory that we could do of how to actually do this.

从理论上讲，这是它自己的播客剧集，我们可以做的就是如何实际做到这一点。

We're not going to cover the strategy.

我们不会讨论该策略。

Also, this may not necessarily work for every company.

此外，这不一定适用于每家公司。

Your point is, you can grow other ways, but this is by far ...

你的观点是，你可以通过其他方式成长，但到目前为止......

Lenny Rachitsky: Your point is you can grow other ways, but this is by far the most powerful, most effective, cheapest, most likely to succeed.

Lenny Rachitsky：你的观点是你可以通过其他方式实现增长，但这是迄今为止最强大、最有效、最便宜、最有可能成功的方式。

If you can figure this out.

如果你能弄清楚这一点。

Elena Verna: It's not cheapest.

Elena Verna：这并不便宜。

It's actually cost a lot of product and engineering and even marketing resources to stand up.

它实际上花费了大量的产品和工程甚至营销资源才能站起来。

So it's not the cost of a budget, but it's cost of people that will have to work to create your own channel, so to speak, for acquisition.

因此，这不是预算成本，而是必须努力创建自己的渠道（可以说，用于收购）的人员成本。

And you're right, maybe that's not for everybody, but it's actually applicable to more products than people realize.

你是对的，也许这并不适合所有人，但它实际上适用于比人们意识到的更多产品。

Because, every single product has some sort of team functionality, some sort of roles that they need to do.

因为，每个产品都有某种团队功能，他们需要扮演某种角色。

Every product can drive word of mouth loop...

每一款产品都能带动口碑循环...

Well, actually, that's not true.

嗯，实际上，事实并非如此。

Not every product can drive word of mouth loop, but they can drive recommendations and they can create user generated content.

并非每个产品都可以推动口碑循环，但它们可以推动推荐，并且可以创建用户生成的内容。

Elena Verna: One of those tactics usually applies to at least one product.

Elena Verna：其中一种策略通常适用于至少一种产品。

So there is an opportunity to create some sort of earned channel, even though it might feel unnatural at the beginning depending on how you reach PMF and how you've scaled in the first couple of stages of it.

因此，我们有机会创建某种赢得渠道，尽管一开始可能会感觉不自然，具体取决于您如何达到 PMF 以及您在前几个阶段的扩展方式。

But if you are not exploring it and if you are not investing into it or at least trying and failing within it, I think that you are really leaving too much of your growth future into the hands of somebody else that you have low control over.

但如果你不去探索它，如果你不去投资它，或者至少不去尝试并失败，我认为你真的把太多的成长未来交到了你无法控制的其他人手中。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the advice here is your growth team.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这里的建议是你的增长团队。

It's okay if they work on SEM, pay growth basically and SEO, but most of your effort and investment should be in earned channel, owned channels, specifically virality generated content?

如果他们致力于 SEM、薪资增长和 SEO，那也没关系，但你的大部分努力和投资应该放在免费渠道、自有渠道，特别是病毒式传播的内容上？

Elena Verna: Diversify.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：多元化。

Just diversify your strategy.

只需使您的策略多样化即可。

So not all of it is reliant on somebody else giving you access to their distribution.

因此，并非所有这些都依赖于其他人让您访问他们的发行版。

Now, for example, a Dropbox, over 50% of acquisition comes through sharing.

现在，以 Dropbox 为例，超过 50% 的收购来自共享。

So I load something into my Dropbox, maybe I need to send it out for signature.

所以我将一些内容加载到我的 Dropbox 中，也许我需要将其发送出去以供签名。

Maybe I need to just share this file to transfer it to somebody.

也许我只需要共享此文件即可将其传输给某人。

Maybe I just need to share this file as a final delivery to my clients that I was working with.

也许我只需要将此文件作为最终交付内容分享给与我合作的客户。

Well, that recipient then is now aware of Dropbox, so it solved the brand awareness.

好吧，那个收件人现在知道了 Dropbox，所以它解决了品牌知名度问题。

Elena Verna: By that action of sharing, you actually almost activated that recipient too, so you don't need to educate them anymore on how the product works and whatnot.

Elena Verna：通过这种共享行为，您实际上也几乎激活了该接收者，因此您无需再向他们介绍产品的工作原理等。

And the percentage of those recipients sign up to become Dropbox users, and that accounts for 50% of acquisition.

这些接收者注册成为 Dropbox 用户的百分比，占用户获取量的 50%。

That is a stable earned channel that nobody can compete with, and it's only for Dropbox to lose, so to speak.

这是一个稳定的盈利渠道，没有人可以与之竞争，可以说，只有 Dropbox 才会失去。

And we actually had our own growth pod focused on it.

我们实际上有自己的成长荚专注于它。

Because to optimize both sender experience and the recipient experience, because it was such a powerful growth and growth engine that driven the company, and every business should have an attempt at one of these.

因为要同时优化发送者体验和接收者体验，因为它是推动公司如此强大的增长和增长引擎，每个企业都应该在其中进行尝试。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think this is going to be a really good push for a lot of growth teams to think about what could we do here?

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这将是一个非常好的推动力，让很多增长团队思考我们可以在这里做什么？

Number seven.

第七号。

Four to go

还剩四人去

Elena Verna: Number seven.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：第七名。

We've talked about this at least a little bit in our last podcast too.

我们在上一个播客中也至少讨论过这个问题。

But I see this as a question that comes up all the time and something that people are afraid of to invest, which is a mistake.

但我认为这是一个一直出现的问题，也是人们害怕投资的问题，这是一个错误。

Every single company starts with their growth efforts focused either on product-led growth.

每一家公司的增长努力都始于以产品为主导的增长。

Hey, I'm going to have everything being done self-serve or on sales in marketing.

嘿，我将让所有事情都是自助完成或在营销中进行销售。

I'm going to have sales team and then I'm going to have marketing team and they're going to do all of the work and my product is just going to create the functionality.

我将拥有销售团队，然后我将拥有营销团队，他们将完成所有工作，而我的产品将创建功能。

And that's good and fine for a while depending on how long that while is.

这在一段时间内是好的，这取决于那段时间有多长。

But not overlaying every single way that you can grow through product, through marketing and through sales as an evolution.

但不要将通过产品、营销和销售实现增长的每一种方式都视为一种演变。

Is a huge mistake that a lot of growth teams fail to iterate on and innovate on.

这是一个巨大的错误，许多增长团队未能迭代和创新。

Elena Verna: The way that I best be comparing it is if product has a product-market fit, which is great, that product-market fit is not going to last that product forever.

Elena Verna：我最好比较的方式是，如果产品具有产品市场契合度，这很好，但产品市场契合度不会永远持续该产品。

They're always going to have to have a second horizon.

他们总是必须有第二视野。

They're always going to have to have a product-market fit expansion efforts in order to continue to grab as many people and solve as many people's problems as possible and increasing their team.

他们总是必须做出适合产品市场的扩张努力，以便继续吸引尽可能多的人，解决尽可能多的人的问题并扩大他们的团队。

Well, the same comes with growth.

嗯，增长也是如此。

If you have a growth model that works for you, that's wonderful, good for you.

如果你有一个适合你的增长模式，那就太棒了，对你有好处。

Optimize it, grow it, scale it, create a team that will be nurturing it and that will be amplifying it, but you're going to need to evolve it, and that evolution needs to come through overlaying other growth models on top of it.

优化它，发展它，扩展它，创建一个团队来培育它并放大它，但你需要发展它，而这种发展需要通过在其之上叠加其他增长模型来实现。

So, A, you are diversified away from just one growth model failing, because a lot of times you're going to get into a situation of law.

所以，A，你要多元化，避免只有一种失败的增长模式，因为很多时候你会陷入法律困境。

Elena Verna: I love Andrew Chen's article here.

Elena Verna：我喜欢 Andrew Chen 的文章。

It's called a Law of Shitty Clickthroughs.

这就是所谓的糟糕点击率法则。

Where if you over-optimize the same thing over and over again, it has minimal returns, and some growth models have very limited time spans.

如果你一遍又一遍地过度优化同一件事，它的回报就会很小，而且一些增长模型的时间跨度非常有限。

Some of them are huge, some can grow for sharing loop at Dropbox.

其中一些很大，一些可以在 Dropbox 上进行共享循环。

It's 17 years in the making and it's still firing.

这部作品已经制作了 17 年，而且仍在热映中。

Good for it.

很适合它。

That's amazing.

太棒了。

But that's very much an anomaly.

但这是非常不正常的。

Most of growth loops spin out their ability to produce meaningful results for you within the first five to six to seven years.

大多数增长循环都会在最初的五到六到七年内发挥出为您产生有意义的结果的能力。

Elena Verna: So continuously overlaying those different growth models, and what I'm specifically talking about is product-led growth, marketing- led growth, sales-led growth, and introducing it into this ecosystem constantly is what really separates companies that can continue growing for a long periods of times versus the ones that can see a really big blip, potentially even unicorn type of growth rates of 70, 80, whatever plus percent, and then it starts to slow down.

Elena Verna：因此，不断叠加这些不同的增长模式，我特别谈论的是产品主导型增长、营销主导型增长、销售主导型增长，并将其不断引入到这个生态系统中，这才是能够长期持续增长的公司与那些能够看到一个非常大的波动的公司的真正区别，甚至可能是独角兽类型的增长率 70、80，无论是百分之几，然后开始放缓。

And don't wait until that slowdown happens.

并且不要等到经济放缓发生才采取行动。

You need to really start thinking about different ways that you can attract people to grow so you are not leaving a gap in the market that somebody else can enter and own.

您需要真正开始考虑吸引人们成长的不同方式，这样您就不会在市场中留下其他人可以进入和拥有的空白。

As opposed to you playing in every way in where you can interact with your customer.

与您以各种方式与客户互动相反。

Lenny Rachitsky: The way I think about this is the S-curves of every growth model and growth lever, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：我思考这个问题的方式是每个增长模型和增长杠杆的 S 曲线，对吧？

Eventually it'll help and then slow down and see you want to find the next S-curve on things that'll grow your business.

最终它会有所帮助，然后放慢速度，看看你是否想要找到下一个 S 曲线来发展你的业务。

Elena Verna: Yes, absolutely.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的，绝对如此。

The way that I see it often is that especially when growth teams, they hit a really big result out of some initiative, they just keep trying to focus on that over and over again.

我经常看到的方式是，特别是当增长团队时，他们通过某些举措取得了非常大的成果，他们只是不断地一遍又一遍地专注于这一点。

And sometimes that focus is warranted.

有时这种关注是有必要的。

Like I said, our sharing loop at Dropbox has its own growth team against it.

正如我所说，Dropbox 的共享循环有自己的增长团队反对。

Great, but at the same time, a lot that's not warranted for all of the...

很好，但与此同时，很多事情并不能保证所有......

Or you need to realize that there's not more choose to squeeze out of this thing and then you need to go and you need to move on.

或者你需要意识到没有更多的选择可以摆脱这件事，然后你需要离开，你需要继续前进。

Elena Verna: Which actually brings me to a little bit of a next thing too, is you need to do it every 18 months.

Elena Verna：这实际上也让我想到了下一件事，那就是你需要每 18 个月做一次。

Because a lot of them are going to fail.

因为他们中的很多人都会失败。

And every five years or so, you for sure need new channel, new growth loops, new tactics, new engines so to speak, to power your growth engine.

每隔五年左右，你肯定需要新的渠道、新的增长循环、新的策略、新的引擎，来为你的增长引擎提供动力。

Whether it's overlaying sales on top of self-serve, whether you're doing a lot of, let's say virality right now in terms of acquisition and you're going into marketing a lot heavier.

无论是在自助服务之上叠加销售，还是您正在做很多事情，比如说现在在获取方面的病毒式传播，并且您将加大营销力度。

But every five years something big has to start taking a big portion of your volume.

但每五年就会有一些大的事情开始占据你的体积的很大一部分。

And for that every 18 years you need to introduce something-

为此，每 18 年你就需要引入一些东西——

Elena Verna: Sorry.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：抱歉。

Yeah.

是的。

Every 18 months you need to introduce something new in order for it to continue evolving.

每 18 个月您就需要引入一些新东西，以使其继续发展。

Lenny Rachitsky: And was that number eight of the list we're going through or that's like a bonus piece of advice?

Lenny Rachitsky：这是我们正在浏览的清单中的第八项，还是一个额外的建议？

Elena Verna: No, that's just a bonus piece of advice.

Elena Verna：不，这只是一个额外的建议。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

Okay, got it.

好的，明白了。

And so the advice here essentially is you'll find something that is helping you grow, assume that will slow down at some point, start thinking about other levers and growth models to layer on top of that.

因此，这里的建议本质上是，你会找到一些可以帮助你成长的东西，假设它会在某个时候放缓，开始考虑其他杠杆和增长模型，以在此基础上进行分层。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something I've seen, let me know if you agree, is usually there's going to be one lever that has most of your growth for a long, long time, and so all other things are not going to be as big, but they are still important.

Lenny Rachitsky：我看到的一件事，如果你同意的话，请告诉我，通常会有一个杠杆在很长一段时间内影响你的大部分成长，因此所有其他事情都不会那么大，但它们仍然很重要。

Elena Verna: So the way I think about it is I try to focus 20 to 25% of growth teams time annually.

Elena Verna：所以我的想法是，我尝试每年集中 20% 到 25% 的增长团队时间。

Not every given sprint or not every given quarter, but annually to introduce a new growth loop, or to introduce a new channel, or to introduce something new that can potentially bring us additional umpth to our growth engine.

不是每个给定的冲刺或每个给定的季度，而是每年引入一个新的增长循环，或者引入一个新的渠道，或者引入一些新的东西，这些东西可能会给我们的增长引擎带来额外的能量。

I know that a lot of it is going to fail.

我知道很多都会失败。

None of it is gold on any growth metrics because you cannot goal it immediately, let's say on monetization or immediately acquisition.

从任何增长指标来看，这些都不是黄金，因为你无法立即设定目标，比如说货币化或立即收购。

You're just going to cut it at its knees immediately if you're not going to let it evolve into something that can be monetized, that can be responsible for acquisition.

如果你不打算让它发展成可以货币化、可以负责收购的东西，你就会立即砍掉它。

So example on Mirrorverse, which is a user-generated content library of all of the mirror boards that people create, it took us probably 18 months until we started putting metrics expectations on it.

以 Mirrorverse 为例，这是一个用户生成的内容库，包含人们创建的所有镜像板，我们大约花了 18 个月才开始对其进行指标预期。

Elena Verna: Before that, it was a thing that we were testing.

Elena Verna：在此之前，我们正在测试它。

And it was being used by a lot of people, but we're like, we don't even know exactly quite how this is going to fit all together.

它被很多人使用，但我们甚至不知道它是如何组合在一起的。

And then it started taking off as both engagement engine as well as acquisition engine.

然后它开始作为参与引擎和获取引擎而起飞。

But it's important to constantly give your team room to try those new ideas.

但重要的是要不断给你的团队空间来尝试这些新想法。

Otherwise, you're going to find yourself that your growth loops and your growth engine is slowing down and you don't have time to find that second horizon.

否则，你会发现自己的增长循环和增长引擎正在放缓，而你没有时间去寻找第二个视野。

And that is the worst situation to be in.

这是最糟糕的情况。

That's where growth starts to slow down.

这就是增长开始放缓的地方。

And to recover out of that is impossible because you need revenue.

要从中恢复过来是不可能的，因为你需要收入。

You need revenue, you need revenue, you need revenue.

你需要收入，你需要收入，你需要收入。

And these growth loops on average take six months, a year, a year and a half to start producing even visible revenue.

这些增长循环平均需要六个月、一年、一年半的时间才能开始产生可见的收入。

So that's why you need to start layering it very soon into your initiatives.

这就是为什么您需要尽快开始将其分层到您的计划中。

Lenny Rachitsky: To make this even more concrete for people that are starting to like, oh, shit I got to do this.

Lenny Rachitsky：为了让那些开始喜欢“哦，妈的”的人变得更加具体，我必须这样做。

Can you just give us a list that doesn't have to be exhaustive of potential growth loops, levers, methods, engines for folks to consider?

您能否给我们一个不必详尽列出潜在增长循环、杠杆、方法、引擎的清单供人们考虑？

You've mentioned a few, but just give a list of people like, okay, got it.

你已经提到了一些人，但只给出一个人的名单，就像，好吧，明白了。

Maybe we'll try one of these.

也许我们会尝试其中之一。

Elena Verna: I'm really big on creating a growth loop out of user generated content.

Elena Verna：我非常热衷于利用用户生成的内容创建增长循环。

I think with everything that is happening with AI and SEO at the moment, your biggest claim to fame on content strategy will be harnessing user generated content.

我认为，随着人工智能和搜索引擎优化目前所发生的一切，你在内容策略上最出名的部分将是利用用户生成的内容。

Whether it's user generated templates, whether it's user generated case studies, review, whatever it is you need to start investing into it now, creating a library out of it, using it for activation purposes, using it then for acquisition purposes, using community to spark the conversations around it.

无论是用户生成的模板，无论是用户生成的案例研究、评论，无论您现在需要开始投资什么，用它创建一个库，将其用于激活目的，然后将其用于获取目的，使用社区来激发围绕它的对话。

That can be a really wonderful strategy that everybody should consider of whether there's juice in it within your product.

这可能是一个非常好的策略，每个人都应该考虑你的产品中是否有果汁。

Other ones can be, hey, we're a very, let's say individualistic product, but can we actually create a referral mechanism for it?

其他的可能是，嘿，我们是一个非常个人主义的产品，但我们实际上可以为其创建一个推荐机制吗？

Elena Verna: For B2C, that's actually very straightforward.

Elena Verna：对于 B2C 来说，这实际上非常简单。

A lot of B2C products thrive on referrals.

许多 B2C 产品的蓬勃发展都依赖于推荐。

For B2B, It can be more of invitation of other team members into the product to complete other jobs to be done.

对于B2B来说，更多的是邀请其他团队成员进入产品来完成其他要做的工作。

Hey, I've done this.

嘿，我已经做到了。

I need my manager to see it.

我需要我的经理看到它。

Can I create a report to share with my manager?

我可以创建一份报告与我的经理分享吗？

And all of a sudden it starts to spread within the company.

突然之间，它开始在公司内部传播。

So creating additional almost product functionality that then creates these loops potentially for you.

因此，创建额外的几乎产品功能，然后可能为您创建这些循环。

So it can be a slew of things.

所以它可能是很多事情。

Obviously, I would highly recommend just understanding all of the menus of these earned tactics.

显然，我强烈建议您了解这些赢得战术的所有菜单。

I should do a blog post on it actually.

实际上我应该写一篇关于它的博客文章。

And then just see what works for you or not.

然后看看什么对你有用。

Because at least ideation step a bit has to happen.

因为至少必须进行一些构思步骤。

If especially you're relying on search engines for your acquisition, start thinking about some of the earned channels as soon as possible.

特别是如果您依赖搜索引擎进行获取，请尽快开始考虑一些赢得的渠道。

Lenny Rachitsky: And even though you recommend spend more time on earned channels, owned channels, there's also explore SEO, explore paid growth, right?

Lenny Rachitsky：尽管您建议花更多时间在免费渠道、自有渠道上，但也要探索 SEO、探索付费增长，对吧？

Sales?

销售量？

Elena Verna: Absolutely.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：当然。

I mean, almost everybody that's paid, arguably almost too soon potentially.

我的意思是，几乎每个人都得到了报酬，可以说可能太快了。

There's a point to make that shouldn't be.

有一点需要指出的是，这是不应该的。

A company should not be doing paid right now, but SEO, social resellers, all of those are wonderful tactics.

一家公司现在不应该做付费业务，但搜索引擎优化、社交经销商，所有这些都是很棒的策略。

Obviously, I skew very heavily towards earned channels just because once you stand that up, that's a gift that just keeps on giving and nobody can take that away from you.

显然，我非常倾向于免费频道，因为一旦你站起来，这就是一份持续赠送的礼物，没有人可以把它从你身上夺走。

But that doesn't mean that other tactics and other channels should not be explored as well.

但这并不意味着不应该探索其他策略和其他渠道。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Let's keep going.

我们继续吧。

So we have three to go.

所以我们还有三个人要去。

Number eight.

第八号。

Elena Verna: So number eight, this one's kind of a doozy and I think a lot of people don't do it.

Elena Verna：第八点，这有点疯狂，我认为很多人都不会这样做。

I don't know why they don't do it.

我不知道他们为什么不这样做。

I think it's such an incredible ability to propel forward.

我认为这是一种令人难以置信的推动前进的能力。

And that is, what doesn't work, as I said in the previous growth tactics, is trying to think that each problem is unique and you need to solve it on your own.

也就是说，正如我在之前的增长策略中所说，试图认为每个问题都是独特的并且您需要自己解决它是行不通的。

Maybe this is not so much does it work, but not hiring advisors is something that I do not recommend for you to do.

也许这并没有多大作用，但不聘请顾问是我不建议你这样做的事情。

You can get access to anybody for one hour a week.

您每周可以与任何人接触一小时。

Yeah, you'll have to pay them.

是的，你得付钱给他们。

So nobody's going to volunteer their hour.

所以没有人会自愿贡献自己的时间。

We're all very, very busy.

我们都非常非常忙。

But hiring advisors is the biggest career amplification and your business amplification can possibly do.

但聘请顾问是最大的职业扩张，也是你的业务扩张所能做到的。

Because to create a network of people that have all of these data points and those all of the other patterns that you can do is something that can just propel you so far forward.

因为创建一个拥有所有这些数据点以及您可以做的所有其他模式的人员网络可以推动您前进。

Elena Verna: That doesn't mean you have to do everything advisor says.

Elena Verna：这并不意味着您必须执行顾问所说的一切。

That's not the point.

这不是重点。

They're not the strategy setter.

他们不是战略制定者。

But they are additional input into your decision-making that you otherwise wouldn't have.

但它们是你决策过程中的额外输入，否则你不会有这些输入。

You can go and hire somebody from Atlassian.

你可以去 Atlassian 雇人。

You can go and hire somebody from Airbnb that have been and lived through all of this and they can help you solving your problem.

您可以去 Airbnb 聘请曾经经历过这一切的人，他们可以帮助您解决问题。

So I think any growth team that does not have an advisor is a growth team that is underperforming.

所以我认为任何没有顾问的增长团队都是表现不佳的增长团队。

Because even me who I've advised so many companies, I've operated at so many companies, I don't know everything.

因为即使是我，我为很多公司提供过咨询，在很多公司工作过，我也不知道一切。

Every time I take an operator role, I hire advisors for myself.

每次我担任操作员角色时，我都会为自己聘请顾问。

Because that is the fastest way to learn anything, and I often see these teams that just try to figure out everything on their own and not have any advisors on their boards, so to speak.

因为这是学习任何东西最快的方法，而且我经常看到这些团队只是试图自己解决所有问题，而且董事会上没有任何顾问，可以这么说。

Elena Verna: I'm not even talking like an official board.

Elena Verna：我什至不像官方董事会那样说话。

I'm talking not even an advisory board.

我说的甚至不是顾问委员会。

But you can hire somebody as a contractor that will be your advisor, I think is a huge mistake, especially in this day and age.

但你可以聘请某人作为承包商来担任你的顾问，我认为这是一个巨大的错误，尤其是在当今时代。

Because we have a big asymmetry of information.

因为我们的信息不对称很大。

In our field, there's very little available to learn because we're all very cagey because of competition.

在我们的领域，可以学习的东西很少，因为我们都因为竞争而非常谨慎。

But at the end of the day, people know a lot of the stuff and how it worked for them internally, and I highly, highly encourage you to not try to wing it on your own.

但归根结底，人们知道很多东西以及它如何在他们内部发挥作用，我强烈建议你不要尝试自己即兴发挥。

Lenny Rachitsky: Along those lines, there's also advice of just like, don't worry about advisors.

Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，还有类似的建议，不要担心顾问。

You never know if they're going to be useful.

你永远不知道它们是否有用。

There's all these hanger-ons that join your startup and want to help, but they're not helpful.

有很多追随者加入你的初创公司并想提供帮助，但他们没有帮助。

If you give one tip for a founder or team that's interviewing advisors, looking for an advisor to vet them to help them find people that are actually great, what would your tip be?

如果您给正在面试顾问、寻找顾问来审查他们以帮助他们找到真正优秀的人的创始人或团队一个建议，您的建议是什么？

Elena Verna: I have actually a good one.

Elena Verna：实际上我有一个很好的。

Many advisors might not like it though.

但许多顾问可能不喜欢它。

I think that you should not hire an advisor until you do some sort of workshop with them on the problem that you're experiencing.

我认为，在与顾问就您遇到的问题进行某种研讨会之前，您不应该聘请顾问。

See them in action.

看看他们的实际行动。

See what kind of information they can provide to you, because any advisor that is cagey about what they know is not the type of advisor that you're going to want to have on your team.

看看他们可以向您提供什么样的信息，因为任何对自己所知道的内容保持谨慎的顾问都不是您希望在团队中拥有的顾问类型。

You want to have somebody that has lived through it that can talk to you, to your face about it, that is able to have hard conversations.

你希望有一个经历过这一切的人能够与你交谈，当面谈论这件事，能够进行艰难的对话。

That is able to provide you necessary examples.

那能够为您提供必要的例子。

That is able to give you and connect dots for you for necessary patterns.

它能够为您提供并为您连接点以获得必要的模式。

So instead of just saying, "Oh, this person looks good, let me hire them as an advisor." Say, "Hey, let's have a workshop first.

因此，不要只是说：“哦，这个人看起来不错，让我聘请他们作为顾问。”说：“嘿，我们先开个研讨会吧。

I have this problem.

我有这个问题。

I think that you can help me fix it."

我想你可以帮我解决这个问题。”

Elena Verna: Pay them for it, whatever their rate is for that workshop, for sure.

Elena Verna：当然要付钱给他们，无论他们为研讨会支付多少费用。

See how they actually interact with your team and then hire them on ongoing retainer bases.

了解他们如何与您的团队实际互动，然后在持续的保留基础上雇用他们。

Because that creates an interview loop that is very practical, that is very quick to understand whether you can work with them, they can work with you, and whether they have anything to contribute to you.

因为这创建了一个非常实用的面试循环，可以很快了解您是否可以与他们合作，他们可以与您合作，以及他们是否可以为您做出任何贡献。

And then every single month evaluate whether that advisor should stay with you.

然后每个月都会评估该顾问是否应该留在你身边。

Some advisors, they only need to be with the company for three months and off they go, that's fine.

有些顾问，他们只需要在公司呆三个月，然后就走，那很好。

Some of them might stick with you for four or five years, but every single month you should go and say, did they add any value?

其中一些可能会陪伴你四五年，但每个月你都应该去问问，它们是否增加了任何价值？

I'm not saying that advisors should have any monetary expectations like revenue attribution, so to speak to them.

我并不是说顾问应该有任何货币预期，比如收入归属，可以这么说。

But did you find value in having conversations with them?

但是您发现与他们交谈的价值吗？

Did they offer anything valuable to you?

他们给你提供了什么有价值的东西吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: That was an awesome tip.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的建议。

And I could see why people would be like, "God damn.

我可以理解为什么人们会说，“该死的。

Elena, don't say that." It makes so much sense.

艾琳娜，别这么说。”这很有意义。

Here we go.

开始了。

Number nine.

第九号。

Here we go.

开始了。

Elena Verna: My last one is also that I see something way too often nowadays on growth teams specifically.

Elena Verna：我的最后一个观点是，我现在在增长团队中经常看到一些东西。

This is very, very gross problem.

这是一个非常非常严重的问题。

And that is too much risk averseness on growth, where you're starting to test everything.

这是对增长的过度风险厌恶，你开始测试一切。

If every single one of your initiatives that you're doing on growth is an experiment, that's a problem and that is something that you should take a look at and say, what am I doing and why do I need a precise scientific measurement for every single thing that I touch in order for it to go to production or to hit the market?

如果你在增长方面所做的每一项举措都是一项实验，那就是一个问题，你应该审视一下并说，我在做什么，为什么我需要对我接触的每一件事情进行精确的科学测量，以便将其投入生产或投放市场？

Elena Verna: It's almost like a disease, like a paralyzing disease, that slows down progress, that slows down velocity, that slows down learnings, that creates very terrible consequences to the output that growth teams produce.

Elena Verna：这几乎就像一种疾病，一种瘫痪性疾病，它会减慢进度、减慢速度、减慢学习速度，对增长团队的产出造成非常可怕的后果。

And it's a little bit counterintuitive, because experimentation is a way to do growth for growth teams and it's their process.

这有点违反直觉，因为实验是成长团队成长的一种方式，也是他们的过程。

Growth teams are meant to experiment, but I also think that experimenting on everything is something that is quite terrible once the team starts to get locked into that state, and it's really hard to get out of because they're then afraid to do any change until or unless that they test.

增长团队应该进行实验，但我也认为，一旦团队开始陷入这种状态，对所有事情进行实验都是非常可怕的，并且很难摆脱，因为他们害怕在进行测试之前或除非进行测试，否则就不敢做任何改变。

Lenny Rachitsky: So where do you find that balance?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么你在哪里找到这种平衡呢？

I imagine people hearing this are like, oh, yes, this makes sense to me, and then they continue to test basically everything.

我想人们听到这个会说，哦，是的，这对我来说很有意义，然后他们继续测试基本上所有的东西。

What's kind of some heuristics you'd recommend for knowing, okay, just don't test that.

您建议了解哪些启发式方法，好吧，只是不要测试它。

Don't worry about it.

别担心。

You don't need credit for that win.

这场胜利不需要功劳。

Elena Verna: First of all, I think that people should trust their intuition a little bit more.

Elena Verna：首先，我认为人们应该更加相信自己的直觉。

Data is good, but data is only good if you have enough of it.

数据是好的，但只有拥有足够的数据，数据才是好的。

So if you have low volume real estate, that is going to take you eight months to reach some sort of answer.

因此，如果您的房地产数量较少，那么您将需要八个月的时间才能得到某种答案。

Do you really want to test it for eight months?

你真的想测试八个月吗？

What's the point of it?

这有什么意义呢？

My rule of thumb, if we cannot collect the sample size in the month, we shouldn't test it, period.

我的经验法则是，如果我们无法收集当月的样本量，我们就不应该对其进行测试，就这样。

Because it's just then it's not fast enough.

因为现在还不够快。

We should just go and do pre versus post.

我们应该去做事前与事后的比较。

Pre versus post is pretty powerful.

前置与后置的对比非常强大。

It's also a way to assess your impact and you can still roll back if it doesn't work.

这也是评估影响的一种方法，如果不起作用，您仍然可以回滚。

But don't think that everything needs a scientific explanation to whether it needs to be moved forward or not.

但不要以为一切都需要科学的解释来决定是否需要推进。

Elena Verna: Also, experimentation cannot be the way that people make decisions in the company.

Elena Verna：此外，实验不能成为公司里人们做出决策的方式。

There's still so much about knowing your user, understanding the market for your brain to connect all of those dots and to know what needs to be an experience that your customers are going to want.

要了解你的用户，了解市场，让你的大脑将所有这些点连接起来，并了解你的客户想要什么体验，还有很多事情要做。

That if scientific data, like a very tight determination of the probability that this is a success, it's important, absolutely do it because it might be a really big strategical pivot that you're planning to do.

如果有科学数据，比如非常严格地确定这是成功的概率，那么很重要，绝对要这样做，因为这可能是您计划做的一个非常大的战略支点。

So it's a data point to validate that all of this extra work will be needed.

因此，这是一个数据点来验证是否需要所有这些额外的工作。

It might be a very high traffic real estate that even 0.1% difference will mean millions of dollars for you.

这可能是一个流量非常大的房地产，即使 0.1% 的差异对您来说也意味着数百万美元。

Elena Verna: But other than that, it should be just go, go, go.

Elena Verna：但除此之外，应该只是走、走、走。

Do pre versus post.

做事前与事后。

By the way, I'm not saying just release and move on.

顺便说一句，我并不是说只要释放并继续前进。

Release, do seven day, 24 hour readout, seven day readout, 28 day readout, even come back to it a year later and measure some of the retention or extension data that is associated with it.

发布、进行 7 天、24 小时读数、7 天读数、28 天读数，甚至一年后返回并测量与其相关的一些保留或扩展数据。

Elena Verna: But to test everything is debilitating to growth teams and app paralyzes them in its place.

Elena Verna：但是测试一切都会削弱增长团队的力量，而应用程序会让他们陷入瘫痪。

So kind of look at your initiatives and say, where do I need precision?

所以看看你的举措并说，我在哪里需要精确度？

And it's important and I can get it best in that versus where we should just go for it.

这很重要，我可以在这方面取得最好的成绩，而不是我们应该努力的地方。

And yeah, we will fail there too, and that's okay.

是的，我们也会在那里失败，但这没关系。

And we can roll back and we can figure out how to make it better.

我们可以回滚并找出如何让它变得更好。

But failure is going to happen regardless.

但无论如何，失败都会发生。

Elena Verna: In statistics, six is tricky.

Elena Verna：在统计学中，六是很棘手的。

Many people take it for face value versus it's just like a directional data point to say there's likely new distribution that has maybe a different mean, and 5% of the chances.

许多人认为它只是表面价值，而它就像一个定向数据点，表示可能存在新的分布，可能具有不同的均值，并且概率为 5%。

If you measure in 95% statistical significance, you might not even be there, and yet really take it for so granted.

如果你衡量 95% 的统计显着性，你可能甚至不在那里，但真的认为这是理所当然的。

Oh, it's going to drive this much lift.

哦，它会驱动这么多的升力。

So I just think that people stop in this age of data, almost rely enough on their element intuition.

所以我只是认为人们停留在这个数据时代，几乎足够依赖他们的元素直觉。

Lenny Rachitsky: A lot of contrary intakes here.

Lenny Rachitsky：这里有很多相反的观点。

I love this.

我喜欢这个。

Elena, we've reached number 10.

埃琳娜，我们已经达到第十名了。

And I know number 10 is like a special one where it's more than one.

我知道 10 号就像一个特殊的数字，它不止一个。

Quick.

快的。

Fire.

火。

Elena Verna: So number 10 is going to be my little fire round.

Elena Verna：所以 10 号将是我的小火轮。

My fire round on little things that I just see people spending way too much time on it.

我的火力集中在一些小事上，我只是看到人们在上面花了太多时间。

It hurts my heart, because it's not going to drive any results on them.

这让我心痛，因为这不会给他们带来任何结果。

So number one.

所以第一。

Color optimizations.

颜色优化。

Because the love of God, a blue is a blue is a blue.

因为上帝的爱，蓝色就是蓝色就是蓝色。

As long as it's accessible and as long as it's bright enough, off you go.

只要它可用且足够明亮，您就可以出发。

You do not need to test the shades of blue or test it against green or so on.

您不需要测试蓝色的色调或针对绿色等进行测试。

Pick a color, move on, please don't spend time on it.

选择一种颜色，然后继续，请不要花时间在上面。

That's an early 2000s tactic.

这是 2000 年代初的策略。

It doesn't work anymore.

它不再起作用了。

We pass that in technology sector.

我们在技术领域通过了这一点。

Elena Verna: Number two.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：第二。

Third party signups.

第三方注册。

A lot of times we think, oh, we're going to get so much more acquisition if we add Google Auth or if we add Facebook Auth or Slack Auth or Microsoft Auth, whichever auth you want to add to it.

很多时候我们会想，哦，如果我们添加 Google Auth，或者添加 Facebook Auth、Slack Auth 或 Microsoft Auth（无论您想添加哪种身份验证），我们将会获得更多的用户。

In some cases, it's very important to have third party auth.

在某些情况下，拥有第三方身份验证非常重要。

So for example, if you are a developer product, please have a GitHub auth.

例如，如果您是开发者产品，请拥有 GitHub 身份验证。

It's kind of unnecessary.

这有点没有必要。

The developers already have the account there, have them connect with it as opposed to create a new one.

开发人员已经在那里拥有该帐户，让他们与其连接，而不是创建一个新帐户。

However, if you're a productivity product, email is fine for the longest time.

但是，如果您是生产力产品，那么电子邮件在很长一段时间内都可以。

Gmail is nice.

Gmail 很好用。

It's not going to drive more acquisition for you.

它不会为您带来更多收购。

You're just going to do a makeshift, and two more people...

你就做个临时的，还有两个人...

Elena Verna: ...

埃琳娜·维尔娜：……

more acquisition for you.

为您带来更多收获。

You're just going to do a makeshift and two more people using it.

你只需做一个临时搭建的东西，然后再让两个人使用它。

It's not going to create incrementality, it's not going to improve your activation, it's not going to improve your retention.

它不会创造增量，不会提高你的激活度，也不会提高你的保留率。

It's not a growth tactic.

这不是一种增长策略。

It's part of you just customer experience that you want to invest into.

这是您想要投资的客户体验的一部分。

Number three, on the fire round, one email wonders.

第三，在火热的一轮中，一封电子邮件令人惊奇。

We stress too much about this one email that we're going to send to this one customer group.

我们对要发送给这一客户群的这封电子邮件过于强调。

And we're like, oh gosh, how much lift is it going to cost?

我们就想，天哪，这要花多少钱？

It'll never cause any lift.

它永远不会引起任何提升。

You will never work as a one-off email.

您永远不会像一封一次性电子邮件一样工作。

Too few people open it on average, 25% open rate.

平均打开人数太少，打开率25%。

At best you'll get 40 to 50% open rate.

最好的情况下，您将获得 40% 到 50% 的打开率。

Too few people click it.

点击的人太少了。

One email will never do anything.

一封电子邮件永远起不了任何作用。

If you're going to go into email, please think about it as a series about communication, about how it interacts with product communication.

如果您要研究电子邮件，请将其视为关于沟通的系列，关于它如何与产品沟通互动。

Elena Verna: It's a whole strategy.

Elena Verna：这是一个整体策略。

It's a whole thing.

这是一整件事。

Please don't stress about one-off email.

请不要对一次性电子邮件感到压力。

Never test a change in one email.

切勿在一封电子邮件中测试更改。

It'll never work.

它永远不会起作用。

You're going to have to do the whole god damn thing and see how it's going to do.

你将不得不完成整个该死的事情，看看会发生什么。

Not just one email, just never going to work.

不仅仅是一封电子邮件，只是永远不会起作用。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm definitely guilty of this one.

Lenny Rachitsky：我确实对这件事感到内疚。

That is a really good one for sure.

这无疑是一件非常好的事情。

And it's so obvious in hindsight, so I love that you share that.

事后看来，这是显而易见的，所以我喜欢你分享这一点。

Elena Verna: Yes.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

And then the last one, growth teams are often too obsessed about removing friction.

最后一点是，增长团队往往过于痴迷于消除摩擦。

Because if we remove the steps, then more people are going to get to the destination.

因为如果我们去掉台阶，就会有更多的人到达目的地。

And to an extent, if you cause horrible friction in your product where it's just confusing about what the next step is, I agree, go fix the friction of the cognitive load that it takes to complete a step.

在某种程度上，如果你的产品造成了可怕的摩擦，让人对下一步是什么感到困惑，我同意，去解决完成一个步骤所需的认知负荷的摩擦。

That is the friction that you should be working on.

这就是你应该努力解决的摩擦。

However, just removing steps or yanking or simplifying things to an oblivion where you lose an identity of what you even do or what you're capable of doing is a completely failed growth tactic.

然而，仅仅删除步骤或猛拉或简化事情，让你忘记自己所做的事情或你有能力做的事情，这是一种完全失败的增长策略。

So simplifying may be an initiative of a different problem that you're solving, but if you ever have a line item on your roadmap that says simplified onboarding, please cross it out.

因此，简化可能是您正在解决的另一个问题的一项举措，但如果您的路线图上有一个项目表明简化了入职流程，请将其划掉。

It's not going to work because simplifying onboarding is an action.

这是行不通的，因为简化入职是一种行动。

Elena Verna: What is the problem that you're solving?

Elena Verna：您要解决的问题是什么？

You're never trying to solve a problem of simplifying.

你永远不会试图解决简化的问题。

You always have a problem of people are confused in it, but people don't know where to go or they get lost in it or they're not educated enough.

你总是会遇到一个问题，人们对此感到困惑，但人们不知道该去哪里，或者他们迷失其中，或者他们没有受过足够的教育。

That is the problem.

这就是问题所在。

And simplifying might be a solution, but it can never be a problem on its own.

简化可能是一个解决方案，但它本身永远不会成为问题。

And too many growth teams are just obsessed with this notion that came out I think in early 2000s, like, oh, simplifying is the biggest growth hack that you can do.

太多的增长团队只是沉迷于这个我认为在 2000 年代初出现的概念，比如，哦，简化是你能做的最大的增长黑客。

Do it.

做吧。

It's only a solution to a very specific problem set of too much complexity.

它只是针对过于复杂的非常具体的问题集的解决方案。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, that was a big one to end on.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，这是一个伟大的结局。

That I think will help a lot of people avoid wasting time.

我认为这将帮助很多人避免浪费时间。

Again, a whole other podcast conversation probably focus just on onboarding advice that you probably have, that I know you have.

同样，整个其他播客对话可能只关注您可能有的入职建议，我知道您有。

We've reached the last item.

我们已经到达最后一项了。

Is there anything else you want to share about this list before we move on?

在我们继续之前，您还想分享关于此列表的其他信息吗？

Elena Verna: No, I think we've spent too much time.

Elena Verna：不，我认为我们花了太多时间。

We're ready to go.

我们准备出发了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Not too much.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：没有太多。

Just enough time.

时间刚刚好。

And kind of on a note, I want to call an audible, and so we were going to talk through all of your favorite frameworks.

顺便说一句，我想打电话给大家，所以我们将讨论您最喜欢的所有框架。

I like the way this conversation has gone.

我喜欢这次谈话的进行方式。

I don't want people to get overwhelmed with information.

我不希望人们被信息淹没。

So one idea is just list maybe your favorite growth frameworks just for folks to go check these out and not spend too much time on each one.

因此，一个想法就是列出您最喜欢的增长框架，以便人们去检查这些框架，而不是在每个框架上花费太多时间。

Elena Verna: Great.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：太好了。

So the list of my favorite growth frameworks.

这是我最喜欢的增长框架的列表。

And to me framework by the way, it's not a solution, it's a pattern.

顺便说一句，对我来说，框架不是解决方案，而是一种模式。

It's a pattern that exists across almost every single company out there and it's a starting point for your ideation and to figure out how you can almost shortcut to possible list of solutions as opposed to trying to figure out too hard of how to even define a problem on its own.

这是几乎每家公司都存在的模式，它是您构思的起点，并弄清楚如何几乎可以捷径到可能的解决方案列表，而不是试图弄清楚如何自己定义问题。

So number one, it's probably expected if anybody has read anything or listened to me talk is growth loops.

所以第一，如果有人读过任何东西或听过我的演讲，可能会想到增长循环。

I think anybody who thinks about growth and anybody who thinks about growth in the funnel fashion versus understanding what the growth loops are is missing out on the ability to create sustainable growth engine.

我认为任何思考增长的人以及任何以漏斗方式思考增长而不是理解增长循环的人都错过了创造可持续增长引擎的能力。

So it's very important to think about action, reaction that generates another action and it's a self-contained flywheel they can spin.

因此，考虑产生另一个动作的作用和反应非常重要，这是一个可以旋转的独立飞轮。

A lot of resources on it at Reforge, Brian Balfour and Casey Winters and Andrew Chen wrote a lot about this.

Reforge 上有很多相关资源，Brian Balfour、Casey Winters 和 Andrew Chen 对此写了很多文章。

Elena Verna: Highly recommend anybody looking into.

Elena Verna：强烈推荐任何正在研究的人。

My next favorite growth framework's actually written by you, Lenny, and Dan, which is a race car framework.

我下一个最喜欢的增长框架实际上是由你们、Lenny 和 Dan 编写的，它是一个赛车框架。

Everybody has a really hard time often thinking about what are all of them parts of growth initiatives and which are long-term, short-term, how much are they going to actually produce in results?

每个人都很难经常思考增长计划的哪些部分，哪些是长期的，哪些是短期的，它们实际上会产生多少成果？

And race car framework is wonderful because it separates different initiatives into, hey, there's some engines, loops that are just going to keep on spinning.

赛车框架很棒，因为它将不同的举措分成，嘿，有一些引擎，循环，它们会继续旋转。

There's some fuel that you're going to need to add into it, potentially like paid marketing dollars.

您需要添加一些燃料，例如付费营销资金。

There are some turbo boosts that you may have in your race car that are going to be, let's say big user conferences that you're going to hold as a product or there's and optimizations that you're going to need to do pouring oil into that engine so that actually performs correctly.

您的赛车中可能会有一些涡轮增压，比方说，您将作为产品举行大型用户会议，或者您需要进行优化，将油倒入发动机中，以便实际正常运行。

It's beautiful.

很美丽。

I talk about it all the time with everybody.

我一直和大家谈论这件事。

Elena Verna: The next favorite growth framework for me comes from Bengali and that's adjacent to user theory.

Elena Verna：我最喜欢的下一个增长框架来自孟加拉语，它与用户理论相邻。

I think that was very powerful in terms of thinking about growth evolution.

我认为这对于思考增长进化来说非常有力。

And as we talked about adding different growth models to your growth ecosystem, different growth loops, but also adjacent users which are outside of your ideal customer profiles or ICP, outside of your core user and how growth team can really bring them in and add additional oomph to your product without even expansion of product market fit by just optimizing their experiences.

正如我们讨论的那样，向您的增长生态系统添加不同的增长模式、不同的增长循环，以及理想客户资料或 ICP 之外、核心用户之外的相邻用户，以及增长团队如何真正将他们引入并为您的产品添加额外的魅力，甚至无需通过优化他们的体验来扩展产品市场契合度。

I'm going to stop at these three because I think those are the most powerful ones.

我将停在这三个，因为我认为它们是最强大的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

On that last one, Bengali was on the podcast.

在最后一期节目中，播客中出现了孟加拉语。

We'll link to that episode if you want to go deeper on the adjacent using user theory.

如果您想更深入地了解相邻的使用用户理论，我们将链接到该集。

I love how that was a few minutes on things that could change people's life if they adopt one of these frameworks and learn how to think about growth in this way.

我喜欢这几分钟的内容，如果人们采用这些框架之一并学习如何以这种方式思考增长，这些事情可能会改变人们的生活。

It's such a powerful mental model for thinking about all this stuff you've been talking about this entire conversation.

这是一个非常强大的思维模型，可以用来思考你在整个谈话中一直在谈论的所有这些东西。

Elena Verna: Yes, those frameworks are like my church in my mind of my system of beliefs of how I think about growth and how I think about it on a strategic level of owning it as a strategy, not just like a tactic or an initiative.

Elena Verna：是的，这些框架就像我心中的教堂，是​​我如何看待增长的信仰体系，以及我如何在战略层面上将其视为一种策略，而不仅仅是一种策略或举措。

Lenny Rachitsky: The church of Elena Verna.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：埃琳娜·维尔纳教堂。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Okay, so before we wrap up, I want to bring us over to Contrarian Corner, recurring segment on this podcast where I like to ask the guest if there's something they believe that most other people don't believe.

好的，在我们结束之前，我想把我们带到“逆向角落”，这是这个播客中反复出现的部分，我想问嘉宾是否有一些他们认为大多数其他人不相信的事情。

Contrarian opinion you might say.

你可能会说相反的观点。

Is there anything that comes to mind?

有什么想到的吗？

Elena Verna: I do have a very contrarian opinion, although it's not so much related to growth as opposed to maybe your personal growth and my contrarian opinion is that full-time jobs are not the best way to monetize the skill that you have.

Elena Verna：我确实有一个非常逆向的观点，尽管它与成长的关系不大，也许与你的个人成长相关，而且我的逆向观点是，全职工作并不是将你所拥有的技能货币化的最佳方式。

It's one of the packages that everybody should evaluate and take advantage of, but too many people blindly default to that package and don't explore other options that are both available on the market as well as best suited for their personalities, for their interests, and for their skill set.

这是每个人都应该评估和利用的套餐之一，但是太多人盲目地默认该套餐，并且没有探索市场上可用的以及最适合他们的个性、兴趣和技能的其他选项。

It's like a default plan that everybody subscribes to that is faulty in itself.

这就像每个人都订阅的默认计划本身就有问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

Okay.

好的。

Wait, we got to hear more.

等等，我们得听到更多。

So what are some other packages?

那么还有哪些其他包呢？

I think we're buying some of these packages, these other options, but I guess what should people be thinking about when you say this in terms of what can they actually do and explore?

我认为我们正在购买其中一些软件包，这些其他选项，但我想当你说人们实际上可以做什么和探索什么时应该考虑什么？

Elena Verna: I'll premise it to saying I don't want to rain parade on full-time roles.

Elena Verna：我的前提是我不想对全职角色进行大肆宣传。

They're wonderful on video ability, to learn to get the expertise and depending on which career stage you are at full-time roles might be the absolute necessity for you to move on to and unlock the next level.

他们在视频能力方面非常出色，学习获得专业知识，并且根据您所处的职业阶段，全职角色可能是您进入并解锁下一个级别的绝对必要。

However, full-time roles boxes into one company that may not be a great fit for us culturally, for our skills, for our ambitions, for our interests.

然而，全职工作岗位可能不太适合我们的文化、技能、抱负和兴趣。

Life is too short for that and ability to really go and figure out your own best monetization model, just like you work on that for your business, you should work for that on yourself without an assumption oftentimes is the only option that you should have.

生命太短暂了，有能力真正去找出自己最好的盈利模式，就像你为自己的企业工作一样，你应该自己努力，而不带任何假设，这通常是你应该拥有的唯一选择。

Elena Verna: So what are the other options?

Elena Verna：那么还有什么其他选择呢？

There's so many, obviously the couple known ones.

有这么多，显然是这对夫妇已知的。

Freelancing, you can be a contractor.

自由职业者，您可以成为承包商。

I do a lot of advising and consulting because for my brain of how I work and how I like to puzzle solve and pattern match, it works much better to be horizontal across many companies versus vertical on one specific one.

我做了很多建议和咨询，因为就我的工作方式以及我喜欢解决难题和模式匹配的大脑而言，在许多公司进行横向工作比在某一特定公司进行纵向工作要好得多。

But that doesn't mean I still don't take those vertical engagements to deepen my knowledge into any specific topic.

但这并不意味着我仍然不会通过这些垂直参与来加深我对任何特定主题的知识。

But overall it's a lot more interesting for me to pattern match across multiple companies and help them grow as opposed to just focusing on one.

但总的来说，对我来说，在多家公司之间进行模式匹配并帮助他们成长比只专注于一家公司要有趣得多。

Elena Verna: There's interim engagements where there's a predetermined end date to your agreement.

Elena Verna：有一些临时约定，您的协议有一个预定的结束日期。

There's fractional engagements where you're working part-time on something as opposed to engulfing yourself completely.

有一些部分的参与，你可以兼职做某件事，而不是完全沉浸在自己的生活中。

There's other ways to create courses, there's a way to create newsletters and monetize them like you're doing such a fantastic job.

还有其他方法可以创建课程，还有一种方法可以创建时事通讯并通过它们获利，就像您做得非常出色一样。

So there's just so many options and people are sometimes paralyzed by fear of instability, that it creates when you start to explore other options because you don't have that contract with that one company that provides you that paycheck every two weeks to rely on.

因此，选择太多了，人们有时会因为担心不稳定而陷入瘫痪，当你开始探索其他选择时，就会产生这种情况，因为你没有与那家公司签订每两周向你提供工资的合同，可以依赖。

But at the same time you can create diversification for your career and you depend on when you need to pull that trigger and when is the right time for you to explore.

但与此同时，你可以为你的职业生涯创造多元化，这取决于你何时需要扣动扳机以及何时是你探索​​的合适时机。

But to spend your entire career only assuming full-time is the only way I think is a complete mistake that a lot of people are doing.

但我认为，在整个职业生涯中只假设全职是唯一的方法，这是很多人正在做的一个完全错误。

Lenny Rachitsky: One of my favorite posts of yours along these lines, which is around increasing...

Lenny Rachitsky：我最喜欢的你的帖子之一是关于增加......

What you want to do is increase optionality and I guess talk about that because I think it's a really powerful piece of advice.

你想做的是增加选择性，我想谈论这个，因为我认为这是一个非常有力的建议。

Elena Verna: So this advice of career optionality, being the ultimate north star for anybody in their professional journey is something that I'm very strong on because a lot of people have the goal of, I don't know, maybe I want to be a VP or I want to become a CEO.

Elena Verna：因此，我非常支持职业选择的建议，即成为任何人职业生涯中的终极北极星，因为很多人的目标是，我不知道，也许我想成为副总裁，或者我想成为首席执行官。

Or I don't know, I want to be a manager and I want to people manage.

或者我不知道，我想成为一名经理，我想管理人们。

And this becomes their north star and they start working towards it.

这成为他们的北极星，他们开始朝着这个目标努力。

But a lot of people when they get to their perceived corporate ladder north stars find themselves extremely dissatisfied, depressed even by how terrible that job is.

但很多人当他们到达他们心目中的企业阶梯北极星时，发现自己极度不满意，甚至因为这份工作有多么糟糕而感到沮丧。

Could people manage your job?

人们可以管理你的工作吗？

I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy because it's a terrible job if you don't enjoy it and you don't know if you're going to like it until you actually do it.

我不希望它发生在我最大的敌人身上，因为如果你不喜欢它，并且在你真正去做之前你不知道自己是否会喜欢它，那么它就是一项糟糕的工作。

Elena Verna: So I think setting a title as your goal, which so many of us have titles as goals, is very wrong way to think about it as opposed to saying, "Hey, my goal professional is actually to have options so I can choose what I want to do.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：所以我认为将头衔作为你的目标，我们很多人都以头衔作为目标，这是非常错误的思考方式，而不是说，“嘿，我的职业目标实际上是有选择，这样我就可以选择我想做的事情。

So I can choose what fits my life right now that I can choose what fits my skills and that fits my personality and that makes me happy."

所以我现在可以选择适合我生活的东西，我可以选择适合我技能、适合我个性的东西，这让我快乐。”

Elena Verna: And to get career optionality, if that's your goal, you start thinking about your progression a lot differently.

Elena Verna：为了获得职业选择权，如果这是你的目标，你会开始以不同的方式思考你的发展。

You're not starting to think about it of what will get me to the next title.

你还没有开始考虑什么能让我获得下一个冠军。

You start thinking about what will can I do next year that will increase my option pool?

你开始思考明年我可以做什么来增加我的期权池？

And that's very different than just getting to a higher title.

这与仅仅获得更高的头衔有很大不同。

And if you start thinking about evaluating opportunities or whether you should stay at the company, whether you should move at the company from the lens of does it increase my options if I stay at this company for one more year or does it keep it the same or does it actually potentially decrease?

如果你开始考虑评估机会或是否应该留在公司，你是否应该从公司的角度跳槽到公司：如果我在这家公司再呆一年，我的选择是否会增加，还是会保持不变，还是实际上可能会减少？

That is the right way to find your ultimate happy place and happy job that brings you energy, that brings you happiness versus just going for a title and then being very disappointed with what that brings along with it.

这是找到你最终快乐的地方和快乐的工作的正确方法，它能给你带来能量，给你带来快乐，而不是仅仅追求一个头衔，然后对随之而来的东西感到非常失望。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing advice.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：很棒的建议。

So important and something I'll add that I think is a balance to what people may be feeling here is like, oh, I'll just bounce around all the best logo companies and create this killer resume.

如此重要，我要补充一点，我认为这是人们在这里可能感受到的平衡，哦，我将在所有最好的徽标公司中跳来跳去，并创建这份杀手级简历。

I think you also need to build depth and actual experience that you can tap into if you do any of these things.

我认为你还需要积累深度和实际经验，如果你做了这些事情，你就可以利用这些经验。

For example, a lot of people want to jump to like I'm going to be a newsletter person, I'm going to start a podcast, be an advisor before they've done anything real and you have nothing to actually base your advice on and that part is very important.

例如，很多人想跳到像我要成为一名新闻通讯员，我要开始一个播客，在他们做任何真正的事情之前成为一名顾问，而你没有任何实际的建议依据，这部分非常重要。

Elena Verna: You have to earn your right to unlock optionality and earning that right does usually lie within full-time jobs.

Elena Verna：你必须赢得释放选择性的权利，而获得这种权利通常需要全职工作。

That is a universal truth.

这是一个普遍的真理。

But then at some point you should start not just looking at full- time jobs as the only option that you have.

但到了某个时候，你不应该开始只把全职工作视为你唯一的选择。

You should start to think about when can you start unlocking new ones and testing the market on it.

你应该开始考虑什么时候可以开始解锁新的并测试市场。

Lenny Rachitsky: The other point is that you've been a great example of is it's not a one-way door.

Lenny Rachitsky：另一点是，你就是一个很好的例子，这不是一扇单向门。

You can have full-time job, go to something else, go back to full-time job, be an advisor, be an intern person, be a newsletter person.

你可以做全职工作，去做其他事情，再回到全职工作，成为顾问，成为实习生，成为新闻通讯员。

You do that really well.

你做得非常好。

Elena Verna: You should have to do it all.

Elena Verna：你应该做这一切。

It's all a menu of options and you pick a menu item that fits your best in any given point of your life.

这都是一个选项菜单，您可以选择最适合您生活中任何特定时刻的菜单项。

It's never say never and never shut the door on anything.

永远不要说永远，也永远不要对任何事情关上大门。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh my god, Elena, this was incredible.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天哪，埃琳娜，这太不可思议了。

Before we get to our very exciting lighting round, is there anything else you want to share or leave listeners with, maybe a last nugget or thought or not because covered a lot already.

在我们进入令人兴奋的灯光回合之前，您还有什么想分享或留给听众的吗？也许是最后一个要点或想法，因为已经涵盖了很多内容。

Elena Verna: No, I think we've covered so much.

Elena Verna：不，我想我们已经讨论了这么多。

I don't want to overwhelm.

我不想压倒一切。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's do it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我们开始吧。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: First question, surprise, surprise.

Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，惊讶，惊讶。

What are two or three books you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Elena Verna: Okay, so I just finished this book that I love so much, it's not a professional book, but it's Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir.

Elena Verna：好的，我刚刚读完这本我非常喜欢的书，它不是一本专业书，但它是 Andy Weir 的《万福玛丽计划》。

It's the same author that wrote Martian.

与《火星救援》的作者是同一位。

Martian also was made into a movie.

火星救援也被拍成了电影。

So good, so good.

太好了，太好了。

Can't put it down.

无法放下。

I think I read it like two days straight.

我想我连续两天读了它。

So highly recommend that.

所以强烈推荐。

And the next one that I also started reading right now is Body Burst.

我现在也开始阅读的下一本是《Body Burst》。

Body Burst is so good.

身体爆裂真好。

It's actually takes into account AI and how we can upload our consciousness in AI and what can happen with that.

它实际上考虑了人工智能以及我们如何在人工智能中上传我们的意识以及随之而来的后果。

So highly recommend that, I think it's actually closer to what potentially can be in the truth for us in the future than not.

因此强烈建议，我认为这实际上更接近我们未来可能的真相。

But I'm a big sci-fi geek, so I read mostly sci-fi books.

但我是一个科幻迷，所以我读的大部分是科幻书籍。

Lenny Rachitsky: I have a sci-fi recommendation for you that comes from Noah Smith.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我给你推荐一部来自诺亚·史密斯的科幻小说。

I love his newsletters called Noah Opinion and he has a list of his favorite sci-fi books that I've been working my way through.

我喜欢他的时事通讯《诺亚观点》，他列出了他最喜欢的科幻小说清单，我一直在努力阅读。

It's called, you may have read it by Werner Vogel, Fire Upon The Deep.

你可能已经读过沃纳·沃格尔（Werner Vogel）所著的《深渊之火》（Fire On the Deep）。

Have you heard of this?

你听说过这个吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

It's described as not a sci-fi but space, like a space opera where it's epic, the most epic scale of universe story.

它被描述为不是科幻小说，而是太空，就像一部史诗般的太空歌剧，是宇宙故事中最史诗般的规模。

Elena Verna: I'll download it tonight, it'll be on my list.

Elena Verna：今晚我会下载它，它会出现在我的列表中。

Lenny Rachitsky: It takes a little bit to get into.

Lenny Rachitsky：需要一点时间才能进入。

It's quite unique, but you just keep going and it's incredible and AI plays a big role in it actually.

这是非常独特的，但你只要继续前进，这真是令人难以置信，人工智能实际上在其中发挥了重要作用。

Elena Verna: That's awesome.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：太棒了。

I'll download it.

我会下载它。

Lenny Rachitsky: There you go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：就这样吧。

Okay, question number two.

好的，第二个问题。

Favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是？

Elena Verna: Yes.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：是的。

I just got to watching Beef on Netflix.

我刚刚在 Netflix 上观看《牛肉》。

It's so good.

太好了。

I'm not going to spoil it for anybody, Beef.

我不会为任何人破坏它，牛肉。

You should watch it.

你应该注意它。

It's a limited series.

这是一个限量系列。

It's so good.

太好了。

It will run through.

它会贯穿。

I love Veep on HBO.

我喜欢 HBO 的《副总统》。

So funny.

太有趣了。

I've probably watched it two times already the entire series and I'll probably watch it more because it just cracks me up every time.

整个系列我可能已经看了两遍了，而且我可能会看更多，因为它每次都让我很开心。

I think this is actually how our government works, so I'm very intrigued by that.

我认为这实际上就是我们政府的运作方式，所以我对此非常感兴趣。

And then the last one that I really liked that is coming up with the season two now.

然后我真正喜欢的最后一个即将推出第二季。

So you should catch up with season one is Last One of Us.

所以你应该赶上《我们的最后一个》第一季。

If you don't like zombie movies or zombie shows, don't watch it.

如果您不喜欢僵尸电影或僵尸节目，请不要观看。

But if zombie and apocalypse is your cup of tea, Last One of Us is so good.

但如果你喜欢僵尸和启示录，那么《最后生还者》就太棒了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Or the Last of Us?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：还是《最后生还者》？

Or Last One of Us?

还是我们最后一个？

Last of Us.

最后的我们。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm Googling while we talk, Last of Us.

Lenny Rachitsky：当我们谈话时我正在谷歌搜索《最后生还者》。

I think it's Last of Us.

我认为这是《最后生还者》。

Yeah, the Last of Us.

是的，《最后的我们》。

Elena Verna: Oh, Last of Us.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：哦，最后的生还者。

Okay, Last of Us.

好吧，《最后的我们》。

Lenny Rachitsky: You're saying there's a third season coming soon.

Lenny Rachitsky：你是说第三季即将推出。

That's exciting.

这太令人兴奋了。

I didn't know that.

我不知道。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, I love it as well.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我也喜欢它。

Great pick.

很棒的选择。

Okay.

好的。

Your favorite product you recently discovered that you really like?

您最近发现自己真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品是？

Elena Verna: I recently discovered that they make heated shoes and that changed my life.

Elena Verna：我最近发现他们生产加热鞋，这改变了我的生活。

My feet are always cold and they are boots that actually have heated wires through them and I'm obsessed.

我的脚总是很冷，而且它们是实际上有加热电线穿过的靴子，我很着迷。

Lenny Rachitsky: And are you like charging it, like USB plugin kind of thing?

Lenny Rachitsky：你喜欢给它充电吗？比如 USB 插件之类的东西？

Elena Verna: Yeah, I just come in, I plug them in and then I go outside and I'm warm and I think it's magical.

Elena Verna：是的，我刚进来，插上电源，然后出去，我感到很温暖，我认为这很神奇。

I have a jacket, also heated jacket, now I have shoes.

我有一件夹克，还有加热夹克，现在我有鞋子。

I just need my gloves and I'll be all set.

我只需要我的手套就可以了。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love the USB powered clothing.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢 USB 供电的衣服。

And we should know you live not in Silicon Valley, you live on the East Coast sort of?

我们应该知道你不是住在硅谷，而是住在东海岸？

Elena Verna: Central.

埃琳娜·维尔娜：中央。

In Central.

在中环。

The coldest it gets is 30s here, but I'm always cold, so this is just my love language is something heated that I can sit on.

这里最冷的时候有三十多岁，但我总是很冷，所以这只是我的爱语，是我可以坐在上面的温暖的东西。

I'm that cat sits underneath the light all the time.

我就是那只一直坐在灯下的猫。

And then I also just got AirPod Max, my headphones.

然后我还买了 AirPod Max，我的耳机。

I couldn't connect it to my computer.

我无法将其连接到我的电脑。

Still technical issues on that, but I love them.

仍然存在技术问题，但我喜欢它们。

The sound is amazing.

声音棒极了。

That's my new favorite gadget that I'm obsessed about.

这是我最喜欢的新玩意，我很着迷。

Lenny Rachitsky: What a cool combination, heated shoes and AirPods.

Lenny Rachitsky：加热鞋和 AirPods 真是一个很酷的组合。

Two more questions.

还有两个问题。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to that you find useful in work and life?

您是否有一条最喜欢、经常回顾并发现在工作和生活中有用的人生格言？

Elena Verna: Yeah, it's really one, progress over perfection.

Elena Verna：是的，这确实是一个，进步胜于完美。

I think that you just need to...

我认为你只需要...

The velocity of information is far more important than something that I think is perfect and perfection is an outcome that you get to.

信息的传播速度远比我认为完美的东西重要得多，而完美是你达到的结果。

But progress over perfection all day, any day.

但每一天、每一天都在进步，超越完美。

Lenny Rachitsky: Very appropriate for a head of growth person.

Lenny Rachitsky：非常适合成长型人士的头脑。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。

You're not only one of the smartest people I've met on growth, you're also one of the funniest people on social media, especially on LinkedIn.

你不仅是我见过的在成长方面最聪明的人之一，也是社交媒体上最有趣的人之一，尤其是 LinkedIn 上。

If people aren't following you, they should.

如果人们没有关注你，他们应该关注你。

They will not only learn, they'll also be highly entertained.

他们不仅会学习，还会获得高度的娱乐。

Is there a favorite meme that you created that you are very proud of that you can describe that we might want to link to?

有没有您创建的最喜欢的模因，您对此感到非常自豪，您可以描述我们可能想要链接到的模因？

Elena Verna: Yeah, so I also want to say a lot of people hate me for doing so much memes as well because they think it's not serious.

Elena Verna：是的，所以我也想说很多人讨厌我做了这么多表情包，因为他们认为这不严肃。

And I actually, I want to rebuttal that really quickly because I think humor is the best way to disarm people and to point out very painful situations that we're facing with every single day or conundrums without putting anybody on defense.

事实上，我想很快反驳这一点，因为我认为幽默是解除人们武装并指出我们每天面临的非常痛苦的情况或难题的最佳方式，而不会让任何人处于防御状态。

Because we can all laugh at the absurdity of the lives that we live in every single day.

因为我们每天都可以嘲笑自己生活的荒谬。

And a picture's worth a thousand words.

一张图片胜过一千个字。

And sometimes memes are just the best way to communicate the most complex situations that we are facing within our corporate world.

有时，模因只是沟通我们在企业界面临的最复杂情况的最佳方式。

And they help us understand how common all of those situations are.

它们帮助我们了解所有这些情况的普遍性。

We're not unique.

我们并不独特。

You're not feeling alone by feeling down about what happened.

对所发生的事情感到沮丧并不会让你感到孤独。

Everybody's going through the same thing.

每个人都在经历同样的事情。

So that's why I love memes because they help connect people on both sides.

这就是我喜欢模因的原因，因为它们有助于将双方的人联系起来。

Elena Verna: Even if you're making fun of one side because they're like, yeah, that is true and this is so funny.

埃琳娜·维尔纳：即使你取笑一方，因为他们会说，是的，那是真的，这太有趣了。

So I'm a big proponent of that just because I think it's actually a better way to both unite people and just talk about hard problems that otherwise would be not read if you put it in words.

所以我非常支持这一点，因为我认为这实际上是一种更好的方式，既可以团结人们，又可以讨论一些难题，否则如果你用文字表达出来，人们就不会读到这些问题。

Elena Verna: But my favorite meme is actually one of the first ones that I've created and I think it's from Family Guy where they have an elephant and the penguin standing and then there's Moses I think, or some biblical character saying, "What the hell is this?" Looking at the elephant and the penguin.

Elena Verna：但我最喜欢的模因实际上是我创建的第一个模因，我认为它来自《恶搞之家》，其中有一只大象和企鹅站着，然后是摩西，或者一些圣经人物在说，“这到底是什么？”看着大象和企鹅。

And the result of it is a child that has a penguin body and an elephant head.

结果是一个拥有企鹅身体和大象头的孩子。

And if you think about elephant as product and penguin as marketing, what the hell is this is gross.

如果你把大象当作产品，把企鹅当作营销，这到底是怎么回事，太恶心了。

Which is a byproduct, a weird, weird byproduct, product and marketing merged together that doesn't really fit with either, yet it's its own entity.

这是一个副产品，一个很奇怪的副产品，产品和营销融合在一起，两者都不适合，但它是它自己的实体。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I think that that's the best to describe to people what is.

我认为这是向人们描述真实情况的最佳方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: So appropriate.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常合适。

Also, it's hard to describe a meme and make it feel funny.

此外，很难描述一个模因并让它感觉有趣。

So good job.

干得好。

Thank you for doing that.

谢谢你这么做。

We'll link to this meme in our show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到此模因。

Elena, this was incredible.

埃琳娜，这太不可思议了。

Thank you again.

再次感谢您。

Thank you for being our first ever third return guest.

感谢您成为我们第一位第三位回头客。

Hopefully there will be many more episodes of Elena Verna.

希望埃琳娜·维娜还会有更多剧集。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想联系并了解更多信息，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Elena Verna: Find me on LinkedIn or my Substack.

Elena Verna：在 LinkedIn 或我的 Substack 上找到我。

I'm not competing with you Lenny, but I share a lot of my thoughts and everything that I learned on my own Substack.

我不是在与你竞争，Lenny，但我分享了很多我的想法以及我在自己的 Substack 上学到的一切。

It's just elenaverna.com.

这就是 elenaverna.com。

LinkedIn is for all of my memes, so go there if you want to laugh, but if you want to learn from what I'm learning, go to my Substack.

LinkedIn 适合我所有的模因，所以如果你想笑就去那里，但如果你想从我正在学习的东西中学习，请去我的 Substack。

And how you can be useful?

你怎样才能变得有用呢？

Tell me what problems you're facing now.

告诉我你现在面临什么问题。

Don't tell me, oh, how growth is slowing down, what should I do?

不要告诉我，哦，增长速度如何放缓，我该怎么办？

I can't help you with that, too broad, but if you're having a situation, there's often really good for me to go and write about it or to do more research about it.

我无法帮助你，因为范围太广，但如果你遇到了这种情况，我去写下来或者做更多研究通常对我来说确实有好处。

So I just love to hear what some people's minds, so I can both help them connect their dots as well as learn about it myself.

所以我只是喜欢听听一些人的想法，这样我既可以帮助他们理清思路，也可以自己了解情况。

Lenny Rachitsky: And what's the best way for them to do that?

Lenny Rachitsky：他们做到这一点的最佳方法是什么？

Is it like DM me on LinkedIn, any other-

就像 LinkedIn 上的 DM 我一样吗？

Elena Verna: DM me on LinkedIn or just reply to my Substack newsletter email.

Elena Verna：在 LinkedIn 上给我发私信，或者回复我的 Substack 时事通讯电子邮件。

It goes directly into my personal inbox, so I read every single one of them.

它直接进入我的个人收件箱，所以我阅读了其中的每一个。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really good tip.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常好的建议。

People don't know that when you get an email on Substack, if you reply, just goes straight to the author.

人们不知道，当您在 Substack 上收到电子邮件时，如果您回复，就会直接联系作者。

Lenny Rachitsky: Elena, thank you so much for being here.

Lenny Rachitsky：Elena，非常感谢你来到这里。

Elena Verna: Okay, thank you for having me, Lenny.

Elena Verna：好的，谢谢你邀请我，Lenny。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at LennysPodcast.com.

您可以在 LennysPodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。