How to foster innovation and big thinking | Eeke de Milliano (Retool, Stripe)
Eeke de Milliano: Process, by definition, is variance reducing.
Eeke de Milliano：根据定义，流程就是减少方差。
You're introducing it, because you worry that the variance in your org is too high.
您之所以引入它，是因为您担心组织中的差异太大。
You want people to sort of meet a certain standard.
你希望人们达到一定的标准。
Eeke de Milliano: And the cost of that is obviously, while you are reducing the standard and bringing folks up to the average, you're also bringing other folks down to the average.
Eeke de Milliano：显然，这样做的代价是，当你降低标准并使人们达到平均水平时，你也将其他人降低到平均水平。
And oftentimes, the folks you're bringing down are your highest performers, your most creative thinkers.
通常，你打倒的人是你表现最好的人、你最有创造力的思想家。
The folks who, I think actually don't really need process to do their best work.
我认为这些人实际上并不需要流程来完成最好的工作。
Eeke de Milliano: And so, that, I think is always the tension that you have with process.
Eeke de Milliano：所以，我认为这始终是流程中的紧张因素。
And obviously one of the reasons why companies introduce process much more and more, as companies get bigger, is because it's harder to get all these folks who don't need processing.
显然，随着公司规模的扩大，公司越来越多地引入流程的原因之一是因为很难找到所有不需要流程的人。
You actually want to reduce the variance.
您实际上想减少方差。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts, to learn from their hard own experiences, building and scaling today's most successful companies.
莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在其中采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们自己建立和扩展当今最成功的公司的艰辛经验中学习。
Lenny: Today, my guest is Eeke de Milliano.
莱尼：今天，我的客人是埃克·德·米利亚诺。
Eeke is head of product at Retool.
Eeke 是 Retool 的产品主管。
Prior to that, she was a longtime PM at Stripe.
在此之前，她曾长期担任 Stripe 的产品经理。
She was actually one of their very first PMs, where she helped build some of their foundational products like Stripe Checkout, Stripe Connect, Stripe Radar, and Stripe Chargeback Protection.
她实际上是他们最早的产品经理之一，帮助构建了他们的一些基础产品，如 Stripe Checkout、Stripe Connect、Stripe Radar 和 Stripe Chargeback Protection。
Lenny: I had a total blast chatting with Eeke.
莱尼：我和埃克聊得很开心。
We covered Stripe's internal culture and what makes it so unique and innovative.
我们介绍了 Stripe 的内部文化以及它如此独特和创新的原因。
How to foster and protect innovation at your own company.
如何在自己的公司促进和保护创新。
What is the right amount of process by stage of company?
公司各个阶段的适当流程量是多少？
How to build a talent portfolio.
如何建立人才组合。
And so much more.
还有更多。
Lenny: I am really excited for you to hear this episode.
莱尼：我真的很高兴你能听到这一集。
And with that, I bring you Eeke de Milliano, after a short word from our wonderful sponsors.
在我们出色的赞助商简短致辞之后，我为您带来了 Eeke de Milliano。
Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by Miro, an online visual whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours and mine.
Lenny：今天的节目是由 Miro 为您带来的，Miro 是一款在线可视白板，专为像您和我这样的团队而设计。
I have a quick request.
我有一个快速请求。
Head on over to my board at Miro.com/Lenny and let me know which guest you'd love for me to have on in 2023.
请访问 Miro.com/Lenny 上的我的董事会，让我知道您希望我在 2023 年邀请哪一位嘉宾。
Lenny: And while you're on the Miro board, feel free to play around with the tool.
Lenny：当您在 Miro 板上时，请随意使用该工具。
It's a great shared space to work closely with your colleagues, to capture ideas, get feedback, and iterate quickly and easily on anything you're working on.
这是一个很棒的共享空间，可以与同事密切合作，捕捉想法，获得反馈，并快速轻松地迭代您正在处理的任何事情。
Lenny: For example, in Miro, you can build out your product strategy by brainstorming with sticky notes, comments, live reactions, a voting tool.
Lenny：例如，在 Miro 中，您可以通过便签、评论、实时反应、投票工具进行集思广益来制定您的产品策略。
Even an estimation app, to scope out your team sprints.
甚至是一个估算应用程序，用于确定您的团队冲刺范围。
Lenny: Your whole distributed team can come together around a wireframe and draw ideas with a pen tool.
Lenny：您的整个分布式团队可以围绕线框聚集在一起，并使用钢笔工具绘制想法。
Or even put mocks right into the Miro board.
或者甚至将模拟直接放入 Miro 板中。
Lenny: And, with one of Miro's readymade templates, you can go from discovery and research, to your product roadmap, to customer journey flows, to final mocks.
Lenny：而且，使用 Miro 的现成模板之一，您可以从发现和研究到产品路线图、客户旅程流程，再到最终模拟。
You get the picture.
你明白了。
Lenny: Head on over to Miro.com/Lenny to leave your suggestions.
Lenny：前往 Miro.com/Lenny 留下您的建议。
That's M-I-R-O.com/Lenny.
那是 M-I-R-O.com/Lenny。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Notion.
Lenny：这一集是由 Notion 为您带来的。
If you haven't heard of Notion, where have you been?
如果您还没有听说过 Notion，那么您去过哪里？
I use Notion to coordinate this very podcast, including my content calendar, my sponsors, and prepping guests for the launch of each episode.
我使用 Notion 来协调这个播客，包括我的内容日历、我的赞助商以及为每集发布准备嘉宾。
Lenny: Notion is an all-in-one team collaboration tool that combines note-taking, document sharing, wikis, project management, and much more, into one space that's simple, powerful and beautifully designed.
Lenny：Notion 是一款一体化团队协作工具，它将笔记记录、文档共享、wiki、项目管理等功能整合到一个简单、强大且设计精美的空间中。
Lenny: And not only does it allow you to be more efficient in your work life, but you can easily transition to using it in your personal life, which is another feature that truly sets Notion apart.
Lenny：它不仅可以让您在工作生活中更有效率，而且您可以轻松过渡到在个人生活中使用它，这是真正使 Notion 与众不同的另一个功能。
The other day, I started a home project and immediately opened up Notion to help me organize it all.
有一天，我开始了一个家庭项目，并立即打开了 Notion 来帮助我组织这一切。
Lenny: Learn more and get started for free at Notion.com/LennysPod.
Lenny：了解更多信息并免费开始使用，请访问 Notion.com/LennysPod。
Take the first step towards an organized happy team, today.
今天就向有组织的快乐团队迈出第一步。
Again, at Notion.com/LennysPod.
再次，参见 Notion.com/LennysPod。
Eeke de Milliano: Thanks so much for having me, Lenny.
Eeke de Milliano：非常感谢您邀请我，Lenny。
Lenny: It's absolutely my pleasure.
莱尼：这绝对是我的荣幸。
A bunch of people have told me that I need to have you on this podcast.
很多人告诉我，我需要你加入这个播客。
And actually, a big thank you to Snir Kodesh, who I believe is a colleague of yours, who gave me a bunch of interesting questions to ask you.
事实上，非常感谢 Snir Kodesh，我相信他是你的同事，他给了我很多有趣的问题要问你。
So, I hope you're ready.
所以，我希望你已经准备好了。
Eeke de Milliano: Awesome.
Eeke de Milliano：太棒了。
Very ready.
准备好了。
Snir is the best, so yeah, I'm excited.
Snir 是最好的，所以是的，我很兴奋。
Lenny: So you're currently head of product at Retool, but before that you spent a lot of time at Stripe.
Lenny：您目前是 Retool 的产品主管，但在此之前您在 Stripe 工作了很多时间。
You spent six years at Stripe.
您在 Stripe 工作了六年。
And so, before we get to Retool, I actually want to spend a little time on Stripe.
因此，在我们开始 Retool 之前，我实际上想花一点时间在 Stripe 上。
Lenny: To set a little foundation, could you just talk about some of the things you worked on at Stripe?
Lenny：为了打下基础，您能谈谈您在 Stripe 所做的一些事情吗？
And maybe some of the things you're most proud of, during that time?
也许在那段时间里你最自豪的一些事情？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
So when I joined Stripe, I joined Stripe in 2013.
所以当我加入 Stripe 时，我是在 2013 年加入的。
It was pretty small at the time, it was around 50 people.
当时规模很小，也就50人左右。
And Stripe didn't have any product managers at that time.
而且当时 Stripe 还没有产品经理。
Eeke de Milliano: And I think Stripe was kind of famous for that.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为 Stripe 因此而闻名。
And it really wasn't because we were anti-PM in any way.
这确实不是因为我们在任何方面都反对总理。
It was mostly just because we were building this product for developers.
这主要是因为我们是为开发人员构建这个产品。
We had a lot of really talented engineers, who were essentially doing the PM job.
我们有很多非常有才华的工程师，他们本质上是在做 PM 工作。
Eeke de Milliano: So I actually joined Stripe as the first account executive, which I think is pretty funny, now that I've seen real account executives do their jobs.
Eeke de Milliano：所以我实际上作为第一位客户经理加入了 Stripe，我认为这很有趣，因为我已经看到了真正的客户经理履行他们的工作。
Because I really just had no business doing that job.
因为我真的无权做那份工作。
But it also really wasn't your typical sales job, in that most of Stripes volume was inbound.
但这也确实不是典型的销售工作，因为大部分 Stripes 销量都是入境的。
So I was really just spending all of my day talking to customers, helping them figure out how Stripe might work for their particular business flows, and payment models.
所以我实际上只是花了一整天的时间与客户交谈，帮助他们弄清楚 Stripe 如何适用于他们的特定业务流程和支付模式。
Eeke de Milliano: And a lot of it was, I think, what PMs do.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为，其中很多都是产品经理所做的事情。
It was just talking to customers, understanding their pain points, and really helping them figure out how the product might do that.
这只是与客户交谈，了解他们的痛点，并真正帮助他们弄清楚产品如何做到这一点。
And to this day, when people ask me, "Hey, what's your advice for going into product management?" I'm like, "Well, you should go get a sales job.
直到今天，当人们问我：“嘿，你对进入产品管理有什么建议？”我说：“好吧，你应该去找一份销售工作。
I think it's pretty valuable."
我认为它非常有价值。”
Eeke de Milliano: But, it's kind of a long story to explain that, at the time there was this one sort of business model, the two-sided marketplace business model, that was just becoming huge.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，要解释一下，当时有一种商业模式，即双边市场商业模式，它刚刚变得巨大，这是一个很长的故事。
And you can't even really sort of imagine that now, but back then, Airbnb, Lyft, Uber, all those marketplaces, it was quite a new way of doing business.
现在你甚至无法想象，但在当时，Airbnb、Lyft、Uber，所有这些市场，这是一种全新的经营方式。
Eeke de Milliano: And so, I was talking to all these customers and they had pretty complicated payment needs.
Eeke de Milliano：所以，我与所有这些客户交谈，他们的付款需求非常复杂。
So it was like, one payer putting in funds and it's getting paid out to a recipient.
就像，一个付款人投入资金，然后将资金支付给收款人。
So an Airbnb guest and an Airbnb host.
因此，一位 Airbnb 房客和一位 Airbnb 房东。
Or multiple payers putting funds in and it's getting paid out to one recipient, like a GoFundMe campaign.
或者多个付款人存入资金，然后将资金支付给一位收款人，就像 GoFundMe 活动一样。
Or one payer putting in money and it going out to multiple recipients, like with ClassPass, where you get a subscription and then it gets paid out to a bunch of studios.
或者一个付款人投入资金，然后将资金发送给多个接收者，就像 ClassPass 一样，您可以在其中获得订阅，然后将其支付给一群工作室。
Eeke de Milliano: And then on top of that, all these platforms and marketplaces started having all these pretty complex regulatory and compliance requirements that were pretty different, country to country.
Eeke de Milliano：最重要的是，所有这些平台和市场都开始有所有这些相当复杂的监管和合规要求，这些要求在不同国家之间有很大不同。
Eeke de Milliano: So it was just this really complicated financial infrastructure problem, and Stripe actually didn't really have the right solution for it.
Eeke de Milliano：所以这只是一个非常复杂的金融基础设施问题，而 Stripe 实际上并没有真正找到正确的解决方案。
And no one else in the market did, either.
市场上也没有其他人这样做。
Eeke de Milliano: So at the time, this Stripe engineer, Brian Krausz, started poking around at this problem.
Eeke de Milliano：当时，Stripe 工程师 Brian Krausz 开始研究这个问题。
Because I was talking to so many of these customers, we started talking about this problem together and poking around.
因为我和很多这样的客户交谈过，所以我们开始一起讨论这个问题并进行探索。
And that actually resulted in us launching this sort of evolution of this product that we had at the time, called Stripe Connect.
这实际上导致我们推出了当时产品的这种演变，称为 Stripe Connect。
Eeke de Milliano: That was easily, I think, one of my favorite products I worked on.
Eeke de Milliano：我想，这很容易成为我最喜欢的产品之一。
Not only, it ended up actually being really quite significant for Stripe's business.
不仅如此，它实际上对 Stripe 的业务非常重要。
But also, because it was the first product and I think that's always pretty special.
而且，因为它是第一个产品，我认为它总是很特别。
Eeke de Milliano: And then, the second product that I think of very fondly during my time at Stripe, was this product, Stripe Radar.
Eeke de Milliano：然后，我在 Stripe 工作期间非常喜欢的第二个产品就是这个产品，Stripe Radar。
So Stripe obviously processes a lot of payments.
所以 Stripe 显然处理了大量的付款。
Wherever there's money, fraudsters will kind of follow.
哪里有钱，哪里就有骗子跟风。
Eeke de Milliano: And there were certainly some merchants who were just particularly vulnerable to payments fraud.
Eeke de Milliano：当然有一些商家特别容易遭受支付欺诈。
So, someone's using stolen credit card information to essentially purchase a good.
因此，有人使用被盗的信用卡信息来购买商品。
Eeke de Milliano: And if you're not in payments, this is going to sound kind of shocking.
Eeke de Milliano：如果你没有付款，这听起来有点令人震惊。
But if a merchant processes a payment from a customer and that customer used a stolen credit card, the merchant is ultimately on the hook for those funds.
但如果商家处理客户的付款，而该客户使用了被盗的信用卡，那么商家最终将承担这些资金的责任。
So it can be detrimental.
所以这可能是有害的。
The merchant who's trying to run a real business is just losing all of this money, because there are all of these frauds who are buying stuff from them online.
试图经营真正业务的商人只会损失所有这些钱，因为所有这些欺诈者都在网上从他们那里购买东西。
Eeke de Milliano: So I really liked working on that product.
Eeke de Milliano：所以我真的很喜欢开发该产品。
So the product at Stripe was essentially, we built a bunch of machine learning models to try and predict when a payment was fraudulent.
因此，Stripe 的产品本质上是，我们构建了一堆机器学习模型来尝试预测付款何时存在欺诈行为。
And then we built a product on top of that, to help customers understand why we were blocking payments, and help them write their own rules around that too.
然后我们在此基础上构建了一个产品，帮助客户了解我们阻止付款的原因，并帮助他们制定自己的规则。
Eeke de Milliano: And that was really fun, both from an anthropological perspective.
Eeke de Milliano：从人类学的角度来看，这真的很有趣。
Because we were kind of hanging out in corners of the internet where you wouldn't usually go if you were doing only legal things.
因为我们在互联网的某个角落闲逛，如果你只做合法的事情，你通常不会去那里。
So we were trying to understand who these fraudsters were.
所以我们试图了解这些欺诈者是谁。
Eeke de Milliano: But it was also really cool from a product perspective, because of all the kind of complicated product questions around how humans should interact with AI and models.
Eeke de Milliano：但从产品角度来看，它也非常酷，因为围绕人类应如何与人工智能和模型交互存在各种复杂的产品问题。
And I imagine a lot of the folks in the latest movement in AI are thinking a lot about that too.
我想人工智能最新运动中的很多人也正在思考这个问题。
It's like, "How do you explain a model to humans?
就像，“你如何向人类解释一个模型？
How do you let them interact with it?"
你如何让他们与之互动？”
Eeke de Milliano: So, both those things were really, really neat.
Eeke de Milliano：所以，这两件事都非常非常整洁。
Lenny: I actually use Stripe for my newsletter.
Lenny：我实际上使用 Stripe 作为我的时事通讯。
It's how folks subscribe.
这就是人们订阅的方式。
And when I log into my Stripe Dashboard, there's so many products.
当我登录 Stripe 仪表板时，会看到很多产品。
I don't even know what many of them do.
我什至不知道他们中的许多人是做什么的。
But I've often seen Radar being pitched to me as something I should pay for.
但我经常看到雷达被推销给我，认为我应该付费。
Lenny: And I feel like I should probably turn it on.
莱尼：我觉得我应该打开它。
That sounds really useful.
听起来确实很有用。
Lenny: One thing, that I want to dig in on...
莱尼：有一件事，我想深入探讨......
So you said when you joined, there were no PMs at Stripe.
所以你说当你加入时，Stripe 还没有产品经理。
How many PMs were there when you moved into product at Stripe?
当您进入 Stripe 从事产品工作时，有多少位产品经理？
Eeke de Milliano: That's a great question.
Eeke de Milliano：这是一个很好的问题。
I want to say maybe three or four.
我想说也许三四个。
Lenny: And you said Stripe is kind of known for being really late to PM and...
Lenny：你说 Stripe 因 PM 迟到而闻名……
I don't know if I want to say anti-PM, but there's a lot of sense of, "Why do we need PMs?
我不知道我是否想说反对总理，但有很多感觉，“为什么我们需要总理？
We have amazing engineers who can decide what to build."
我们拥有出色的工程师，他们可以决定建造什么。”
Lenny: Is there anything you can share around that general philosophy of Stripe?
Lenny：关于 Stripe 的总体理念，您有什么可以分享的吗？
And was it effective?
有效吗？
Was it good?
好吗？
Because a lot of companies are anti-PM.
因为很多公司都反对PM。
And I think they always point to Stripe, and Snap is another example of, "We don't need PMs.
我认为他们总是指向 Stripe，而 Snap 是另一个例子，“我们不需要产品经理。
Look how far these companies got with without PMs."
看看这些公司在没有产品经理的情况下能走多远。”
Lenny: Is there something unique to Stripe that allowed them not to have PMs?
Lenny：Stripe 是否有什么独特之处使得他们不需要 PM？
I think there was like 200 employees probably, by the time they had their first PM.
我认为，当他们有了第一位 PM 时，可能已经有 200 名员工了。
Eeke de Milliano: I think we actually had our first PM at...
Eeke de Milliano：我认为我们的第一位总理实际上是在……
I want to say at about 100 employees.
我想说的是大约100名员工。
Eeke de Milliano: But yeah, no, it was late in the game.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，是的，不，比赛已经后期了。
And actually, maybe just to pattern match.
实际上，也许只是为了模式匹配。
Retool also didn't really have PMs for a while.
Retool 也有一段时间没有真正的产品经理了。
Eeke de Milliano: And I think actually both in the Stripe case and the Retool case, the thing that both of these companies have in common is, you're building for developers.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为实际上在 Stripe 案例和 Retool 案例中，这两家公司的共同点是，您都是为开发人员构建的。
The people who are building the product are the customers in a lot of ways.
构建产品的人在很多方面都是客户。
So, they get it.
所以，他们明白了。
There's really no reason why you should have, in some ways, a middle man trying to figure out, "Hey, who's the customer, and what is it that they need?" And what are their pain points?"
在某些方面，你确实没有理由让一个中间人试图弄清楚，“嘿，谁是客户，他们需要什么？”他们的痛点是什么？”
Eeke de Milliano: And I think the moment at which it became clear, "We really do need PMs at Stripe." And I think we felt the same way at Retool is, your customer base starts expanding.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为从那一刻起，“我们确实需要 Stripe 的产品经理”。我认为我们在 Retool 也有同样的感觉，您的客户群开始扩大。
You start having different kinds of customers.
你开始拥有不同类型的客户。
You need to understand the whole market, all of the ICPs that you're going after.
你需要了解整个市场，以及你所追求的所有 ICP。
Eeke de Milliano: And the organization gets more complex.
Eeke de Milliano：组织变得更加复杂。
I think Stripe...
我觉得条纹...
Gosh, in particular, it's just an extremely matrixed organization in business.
天哪，尤其是，它只是一个极其矩阵化的商业组织。
Because every time you launch a product, you're having to think about, "Well, how do we do this in other countries?
因为每次推出产品时，您都必须考虑：“那么，我们在其他国家/地区如何做到这一点？
There's different financial infrastructure.
有不同的金融基础设施。
How do we think about the legal side, the compliance side, et cetera?"
我们如何看待法律方面、合规方面等等？”
Eeke de Milliano: And I think PMs can really kind of bring that whole story together and make the whole machine move.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为产品经理确实可以将整个故事整合在一起并使整个机器运转起来。
In addition to understanding the customers, and the value prop, and what the overall strategy was.
除了了解客户、价值支柱以及总体策略是什么之外。
Lenny: That's a really good reminder of, engineers and designers can do the work of a PM, but often they don't want to.
Lenny：这确实很好地提醒了我们，工程师和设计师可以做产品经理的工作，但他们通常不愿意这样做。
There's a lot of non-fun parts to it.
其中有很多不有趣的部分。
They're like, "Oh, I wish we could have someone here do these things." And PMs enjoy that work.
他们就像，“哦，我希望我们能有人在这里做这些事情。”产品经理喜欢这项工作。
They're good at it.
他们很擅长。
And so, eventually engineers and designers realize, "Okay, I see why maybe we should hire a PM."
因此，最终工程师和设计师意识到，“好吧，我明白为什么我们应该聘请一名产品经理了。”
Eeke de Milliano: I say this often actually, to folks who are thinking about going into product management.
Eeke de Milliano：实际上，我经常对那些正在考虑进入产品管理领域的人说这句话。
"That's awesome.
“那太棒了。
Just be really, really sure about what you're signing up for."
只要非常非常确定您要注册的内容即可。”
Eeke de Milliano: It's kind of the same as, I think a lot of people want to become a manager.
Eeke de Milliano：这有点像，我认为很多人都想成为一名经理。
But just so you know, being a manager is like, "Hey, you're doing performance reviews a lot.
但正如你所知，作为一名经理就像是，“嘿，你经常进行绩效评估。
And you're in one-on-ones a lot." You have to really love that kind of work.
而且你们经常进行一对一的交流。”你必须真正热爱这种工作。
And I think in the product management case, it's also like, you're constantly working across a lot of different teams.
我认为在产品管理案例中，你也经常在许多不同的团队中工作。
You're trying to influence a lot of people who don't report into you directly, to do a bunch of stuff.
你试图影响很多不直接向你汇报的人，去做很多事情。
Eeke de Milliano: And if you love that, that's great.
Eeke de Milliano：如果你喜欢这个，那就太好了。
But you've got to be sure you know you're signing up for it.
但你必须确保你知道你正在注册。
Lenny: Yeah, that's a really good comparison.
莱尼：是的，这是一个很好的比较。
When I first became a manager, I was an engineer, actually.
当我第一次成为经理时，实际上我是一名工程师。
And I was managing engineers.
我当时正在管理工程师。
And then, when I moved on to something as an IC engineer, again, I was like, "I will never manage again.
然后，当我再次担任 IC 工程师时，我想，“我再也不会成功了。
That was no fun at all.
那一点也不好玩。
Why would I want to do this?"
我为什么要这么做？”
Lenny: And I imagine people get into product thinking they're going to have all this control, power, influence.
莱尼：我想人们进入产品时会认为他们将拥有所有这些控制权、权力和影响力。
And then they're like, "Oh my God, this job is so freaking crazy.
然后他们会说，“天哪，这份工作太疯狂了。
What did I sign up for?"
我报名是为了什么？”
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
That reminds me, something that I heard you did at Stripe is, you wrote their internal culture guide.
这让我想起，我听说你在 Stripe 所做的事情是，你写了他们的内部文化指南。
It was like a quick start guide to culture at Stripe, that I think was maybe shared with early employees.
这就像 Stripe 文化的快速入门指南，我认为可能会与早期员工分享。
Lenny: And if that's true, I'm curious what it is about Stripe's culture?
Lenny：如果这是真的，我很好奇 Stripe 的文化是什么？
If you could just briefly share just what makes Stripe so special.
您能简单分享一下 Stripe 的特别之处吗？
Clearly, it's one of the most successful companies in the world, in history.
显然，它是历史上世界上最成功的公司之一。
I know there's been a a slowdown with the market.
我知道市场正在放缓。
Everyone's slowed down a bit.
大家都放慢了脚步。
Lenny: But it feels like Stripe has been incredibly successful and continues to innovate like crazy.
Lenny：但感觉 Stripe 取得了令人难以置信的成功，并且继续疯狂创新。
Hires incredible people.
雇用了令人难以置信的人才。
People that are starting amazing companies.
人们正在创办令人惊叹的公司。
Lenny: So I guess back to my question, what is it that you think makes Stripe's culture unique and special?
Lenny：所以我想回到我的问题，你认为是什么让 Stripe 的文化变得独特和特殊？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah, that quick guide to Stripe's culture.
Eeke de Milliano：是的，这是 Stripe 文化的快速指南。
I think we wrote it, maybe when we were around 150 people or so.
我想我们大概是在 150 人左右的时候写的。
And we actually wrote it to share with candidates.
我们写这篇文章实际上是为了与候选人分享。
Eeke de Milliano: Because the idea was like, "Look, we're kind of opinionated about how we do things here.
Eeke de Milliano：因为这个想法就像是，“看，我们对在这里做事的方式有自己的看法。
Most companies struggle to describe what their culture is.
大多数公司都很难描述他们的文化。
Like, how does a fish describe water?
比如，鱼如何描述水？
But it's worthwhile getting a sense of the things that we feel opinionated about, and that you might like or you might not like."
但了解一下我们认为固执己见的事情以及你可能喜欢或可能不喜欢的事情是值得的。”
Eeke de Milliano: And actually, when we put out the guide, our metric of success was that, more of the right people would apply to Stripe and fewer of the wrong people.
Eeke de Milliano：实际上，当我们发布指南时，我们衡量成功的标准是，更多合适的人会申请 Stripe，而更少的错误人会申请。
And there was a whole section in there, I was like, "Hey, look, we work pretty hard here and that is certainly not for everyone.
那里有一个完整的部分，我想，“嘿，看，我们在这里工作非常努力，但这肯定不适合每个人。
And hopefully you're excited to come and work really hard with colleagues who really care, and that's the reward." So, that's maybe one example.
希望你很高兴能来和真正关心的同事一起努力工作，这就是回报。”所以，这可能就是一个例子。
Eeke de Milliano: On Stripe's culture and what's made it so successful.
Eeke de Milliano：On Stripe 的文化以及其如此成功的原因。
I've really been thinking a lot about, "Were there one or two pivotal points or decisions for Stripe, that really set it on its path to success?" And I don't think there are, actually.
我真的思考了很多，“对于 Stripe 来说，是否有一两个关键点或决定真正让它走上了成功之路？”事实上，我认为不存在。
Every time I'm like, "Well, if this hadn't happened..."
每次我都会想，“好吧，如果这件事没有发生的话……”
Eeke de Milliano: I can always reason my way into, "If these other things would've happened, Stripe would've kind of ended up in the same place."
Eeke de Milliano：我总能推理出，“如果发生了这些其他事情，Stripe 也会陷入同样的境地。”
Eeke de Milliano: So I think what Stripe was actually particularly good at...
Eeke de Milliano：所以我认为 Stripe 实际上特别擅长......
And by the way, you should take all this with a humongous grain of salt, because I haven't worked there since 2019.
顺便说一句，你应该对这一切持保留态度，因为自 2019 年以来我就没有在那里工作过。
But, at least my experience when I was there, what Stripe was really good at was just making, not just one or two good decisions.
但是，至少根据我在那里的经验，Stripe 真正擅长的是做出决定，而不仅仅是一两个好的决定。
It was making a lot of really good decisions all the time, big or small.
它一直在做出很多非常好的决定，无论大小。
Eeke de Milliano: And that, I think, was quite cultural.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为这很有文化意义。
There was this humongous respect and enthusiasm for thinking.
人们对思考充满了极大的尊重和热情。
It was such a part of the culture.
这是文化的一部分。
One of the values was, think rigorously.
价值观之一是，严格思考。
Every meeting was very much like, "Hey, how do we think about this thing from first principle?"
每次会议都非常像，“嘿，我们如何从第一原则考虑这件事？”
Eeke de Milliano: No one would ever say, for example, "It's a best practice to do X." People would be like, "Well, why?" You had to go a few levels deeper.
Eeke de Milliano：例如，没有人会说“这是执行 X 操作的最佳实践”。人们会说，“嗯，为什么？”你必须更深入几个层次。
So that was, I think, one piece.
所以我认为这是一件。
Eeke de Milliano: The other piece...
Eeke de Milliano：另一块......
And a lot has been written about this already.
关于这一点已经有很多文章了。
Stripe had a very strong writing culture.
Stripe 有着非常浓厚的写作文化。
All communication was along from writing business reviews, strategy memos, product reviews.
所有的沟通都是从撰写业务评论、战略备忘录、产品评论开始的。
There was a lot of writing that happened.
发生了很多写作。
Eeke de Milliano: And I very strongly believe this.
Eeke de Milliano：我坚信这一点。
I don't think you can be a good writer, unless you're a clear thinker.
我不认为你能成为一名优秀的作家，除非你是一个清晰的思考者。
And if you couldn't write well, I think it was actually pretty hard to be successful at Stripe, at least in the early days.
如果你写得不好，我认为实际上很难在 Stripe 取得成功，至少在早期是这样。
So I think Stripe just cultivated a lot of really good writers, and by input into that, a lot of really good thinkers.
所以我认为 Stripe 培养了很多真正优秀的作家，并通过投入培养了很多真正优秀的思想家。
Eeke de Milliano: And then, I think the last thing that Stripe was really good at, was not overthinking decisions.
Eeke de Milliano：然后，我认为 Stripe 真正擅长的最后一件事就是不要过度思考决策。
Because that's kind of the flip side of this really rigorous approach, is that you lock yourself into a room and can't come out for five days.
因为这是这种非常严格的方法的另一面，就是你把自己锁在一个房间里，五天内不能出来。
You have to be good at making a lot of decisions, and the right decisions, quickly.
你必须善于快速做出很多决定，而且是正确的决定。
Eeke de Milliano: And one of the things that we would always sort of kick around a lot was just the idea of, "Is it a trapdoor decision?" Which I think is an Amazon concept.
Eeke de Milliano：我们经常讨论的事情之一就是“这是一个活板门决定吗？”我认为这是亚马逊的概念。
Lenny: One-way door, or two-way door.
莱尼：单向门，或者双向门。
Eeke de Milliano: It's like, "If you make this decision, is it one door, or is it two doors?
Eeke de Milliano：就像，“如果你做出这个决定，是一扇门，还是两扇门？
Can you come back from this decision?"
你能从这个决定中回来吗？”
Eeke de Milliano: And I thought Stripe was actually really good at being rigorous...
Eeke de Milliano：我认为 Stripe 实际上非常擅长严谨......
Back to the rigorous point.
回到严格的点上来。
About what actually was a trapdoor decision.
关于什么实际上是一个活板门决定。
Eeke de Milliano: So I think a lot of people, for example, think pricing is a trapdoor decision.
Eeke de Milliano：例如，我认为很多人认为定价是一个暗门决策。
But actually, it's really easy to grandfather your existing users into some existing pricing model and change pricing for future users.
但实际上，将现有用户纳入某些现有定价模型并更改未来用户的定价非常容易。
And if you believe that the product's going to be successful, your early users are only going to be a fraction of that pricing model.
如果您相信该产品将会成功，那么您的早期用户只是该定价模型的一小部分。
Eeke de Milliano: And if the product's not successful, then Who cares if you change the pricing model?
Eeke de Milliano：如果产品不成功，那么谁在乎你是否改变定价模式呢？
So I think that's a really good example of, people think that's a trapdoor decision, but actually you can move much more quickly on that decision than you think.
所以我认为这是一个很好的例子，人们认为这是一个暗门决定，但实际上你可以比你想象的更快地做出这个决定。
Eeke de Milliano: And then, a decision that definitely felt to us very much like a trapdoor decision, that I think Stripe took a long time being really rigorous about, was titles.
Eeke de Milliano：然后，一个对我们来说绝对感觉非常像活板门决定的决定，我认为 Stripe 花了很长时间才非常严格，那就是标题。
I think Stripe's kind of famous for not really having titles.
我认为 Stripe 因没有真正的头衔而出名。
Eeke de Milliano: And I think it was right to be rigorous around that decision, because once you've given someone a title, you can't really take it away.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为严格执行这一决定是正确的，因为一旦你授予某人头衔，你就无法真正将其夺走。
So you better be sure about the title you want to give someone.
因此，您最好确定要授予某人的头衔。
Lenny: Yeah, the titles are hilarious.
莱尼：是的，这些标题很搞笑。
I put together a career ladder doc of all company leveling names across all the big companies.
我整理了一份职业阶梯文档，其中包含所有大公司的所有公司级别名称。
Eeke de Milliano: Is everyone a lead, at Stripe?
Eeke de Milliano：Stripe 的每个人都是领导者吗？
Lenny: And it's like, product manager, product manager, product manager, product manager...
莱尼：就像，产品经理，产品经理，产品经理，产品经理......
Yeah.
是的。
And there's a lead here and there.
到处都有线索。
Yeah, VPs are basically a product manager or a product leader, something like that.
是的，副总裁基本上是产品经理或产品领导者之类的。
Lenny: Hilarious.
莱尼：搞笑。
You talked about this idea of first principles.
您谈到了第一原则的想法。
People talk about that often as, "We want to be first principle thinkers.
人们经常这样谈论这一点：“我们想成为第一原则思想家。
We're going to think from first principles."
我们将从首要原则出发进行思考。”
Lenny: How did Stripe actually operationalize that, implement that?
Lenny：Stripe 是如何实际操作、实施的？
Or was that just founder, top-down, continued questioning people, and that trickles down?
或者只是创始人自上而下地不断向人们提问，然后慢慢渗透下去？
Or is there anything else that they did to instill that mentality?
或者他们还做了什么其他事情来灌输这种心态？
Eeke de Milliano: I definitely think it's founder, top-down.
Eeke de Milliano：我绝对认为它是自上而下的创始人。
They were really good about hiring people who thought that way, too.
他们非常善于雇佣同样有这种想法的人。
So it's just all that stuff.
所以这就是所有这些东西。
It just really, really trickles.
它真的非常非常细流。
Eeke de Milliano: And actually, to this day, when I'm preparing a memo, or a board deck, or something.
Eeke de Milliano：实际上，直到今天，当我准备一份备忘录、或一份董事会报告或其他东西时。
I imagine in my head, I'm like, "What if I had to present this to Patrick?" And my ideas just get so much better, because I can sort of think about the questions they would ask.
我在脑海中想象，“如果我必须把这个呈现给帕特里克怎么办？”我的想法变得更好，因为我可以思考他们会问的问题。
Eeke de Milliano: So, I think that was one.
Eeke de Milliano：所以，我认为这就是其中之一。
I think the other one was just sort of this writing culture piece.
我认为另一篇文章只是一种写作文化作品。
Once you start writing things down, you realize, "Hey, that actually doesn't make a lot of sense."
一旦你开始写下来，你就会意识到，“嘿，这实际上没有多大意义。”
Eeke de Milliano: And then, I think the third thing actually was, there was just always a lot of questioning about the status quo.
Eeke de Milliano：然后，我认为第三件事实际上是，人们总是对现状提出很多质疑。
So if something had been done in an industry for a long time, people would always be like, "Well, why was it done that way?"
因此，如果某个行业已经做了很长时间的某件事，人们总是会问，“那么，为什么要这样做呢？”
Eeke de Milliano: And I think this is actually how Stripe got its start.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为这实际上就是 Stripe 的起源。
I think when Stripe started, if you wanted to set up a merchant account, it could take weeks.
我认为，当 Stripe 开始时，如果你想建立一个商家帐户，可能需要几周的时间。
And everyone just assumed that's what it took.
每个人都认为这就是它所需要的。
And of course John and Patrick were like, "Well, it doesn't actually make that much sense why it should take that long."
当然，约翰和帕特里克会说，“好吧，为什么要花那么长时间实际上没有多大意义。”
Lenny: You shared some of the values...
莱尼：你们分享了一些价值观......
I don't know if they're just called values, core values, at Stripe.
我不知道 Stripe 是否只是将它们称为价值观、核心价值观。
But, is there other ones you can share?
但是，还有其他可以分享的吗？
You said one is think rigorous, or don't overthink.
你说一个人是想得严谨，还是别想太多。
What are the other values at Stripe?
Stripe 的其他价值观是什么？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah, think rigorously was one.
Eeke de Milliano：是的，严格思考就是其中之一。
And I think they might have actually updated these on the website recently, so my recollection is very likely out of date.
而且我认为他们可能最近在网站上更新了这些内容，所以我的记忆很可能已经过时了。
Eeke de Milliano: And Stripe would call them operating principles, actually.
Eeke de Milliano：实际上，Stripe 会称它们为操作原则。
Which, I think is actually better.
我认为这实际上更好。
Because values, you can't really tell people what to value.
因为价值观，你无法真正告诉人们该看重什么。
Everyone has their own value set.
每个人都有自己的价值观。
But you can tell people like, "Hey, here's how we operate."
但你可以告诉人们，“嘿，这就是我们的运作方式。”
Eeke de Milliano: Another one that I loved was, move with urgency and focus.
Eeke de Milliano：我喜欢的另一点是，紧迫而专注地行动。
It was just really this idea that you're biggest compatriot and your biggest enemy as a startup, is time.
事实上，作为一家初创公司，时间是你最大的同胞，而你最大的敌人就是时间。
So you have to move really, really, really fast on it.
所以你必须非常非常非常快地行动。
Eeke de Milliano: Customers first, was the other one.
Eeke de Milliano：另一个是客户至上。
Or, users first, as Stripe would refer to customers as users.
或者，用户第一，因为 Stripe 将客户称为用户。
So those are some of my favorites.
这些是我最喜欢的一些。
Lenny: When I think back to what made Airbnb special in a similar way, the values...
Lenny：当我回想 Airbnb 的独特之处时，我发现它的价值观......
We call them core values.
我们称之为核心价值观。
I think were actually really, really important, and turned the company into what it ended up being.
我认为它们实际上非常非常重要，并将公司变成了最终的样子。
And I was actually there around the time they created these values.
事实上，他们创造这些价值观的时候我就在场。
Lenny: I'm curious, at Stripe, do you have any recollection of how they came to these operating principles?
Lenny：我很好奇，在 Stripe，你还记得他们是如何得出这些运营原则的吗？
Because, as I mentioned, founders are listening.
因为，正如我提到的，创始人正在倾听。
"How do I come up with these for our company?"
“我如何为我们公司想出这些？”
Eeke de Milliano: I'm pretty sure Patrick wrote them.
Eeke de Milliano：我很确定是帕特里克写的。
Yeah.
是的。
I think they came from...
我认为他们来自...
Patrick and John wrote them.
帕特里克和约翰写了它们。
Eeke de Milliano: Actually, the other value that I love...
Eeke de Milliano：实际上，我喜欢的另一个价值......
I don't think they have it anymore, but it was good, the operating principles.
我认为他们不再拥有它了，但它的操作原则很好。
Micro pessimists, macro optimists.
微观悲观主义者，宏观乐观主义者。
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
It was just this idea that, "In the long term, we expect the curve to go up.
正是这个想法，“从长远来看，我们预计曲线会上升。
We very much believe in the upward trajectory of just about everything.
我们非常相信一切事物都会呈上升趋势。
But on the day-to-day decisions, on the minutiae, we're quite critical.
但对于日常决策、细节，我们非常挑剔。
How do we make sure this thing works?" And we'd think about all the ways in which it doesn't work.
我们如何确保这个东西有效？”我们会思考它不起作用的所有方式。
Lenny: So zooming out a little bit.
莱尼：所以缩小一点。
We've been talking about Stripe.
我们一直在谈论 Stripe。
Retool also is a very first principles, innovative company.
Retool 也是一家秉持第一原则的创新型公司。
Lenny: Something that I think of when I think of Retool is, during the wild market days of long ago, last year.
Lenny：当我想到 Retool 时，我想到的是很久以前，去年的疯狂市场时期。
I know Retool was very conservative in how they raised money, and the valuations they raised at.
我知道 Retool 在融资方式以及融资估值方面非常保守。
Which, looking back, ended up being a really good idea.
回想起来，这确实是一个好主意。
While everyone's raising at $100 billion, I think their last round is a few billion.
虽然每个人都筹集了 1000 亿美元，但我认为他们的最后一轮融资是几十亿美元。
And it's a very reasonable, conservative way to think about fundraising.
这是一种非常合理、保守的筹款思考方式。
Lenny: And so, I guess just thinking about innovation in general.
莱尼：所以，我想只是考虑一般的创新。
Why do you think some teams are able to run innovation machines, continue to put out new products, disrupt industries, while other companies kind of plod along and stay conservative?
您认为为什么有些团队能够运行创新机器，不断推出新产品，颠覆行业，而其他公司却步履维艰并保持保守？
Lenny: Is there anything you've seen, something you bring to teams you work on, to help foster innovation and big thinking?
Lenny：有什么你见过的东西，或者你给你工作的团队带来的东西，来帮助培养创新和大思维的东西吗？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah, I actually think about the extremes of that question.
Eeke de Milliano：是的，我实际上考虑了这个问题的极端情况。
So not, "Why are some teams innovative?" But, "Why isn't every team innovative?" I feel like no one wakes up in the morning and thinks, "Yeah, today I want to work on boring, incremental stuff."
所以不是“为什么有些团队具有创新性？”但是，“为什么不是每个团队都具有创新精神？”我觉得没有人早上醒来会想：“是的，今天我想做一些无聊的、渐进的事情。”
Eeke de Milliano: But, most teams do end up working on pretty incremental stuff.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，大多数团队最终都会从事相当增量的工作。
I always wonder, "What is it that's stopping folks from being creative and thinking bigger?" And I think it comes down to a couple of things that companies do sort of unwillingly, or not even realizing it.
我总是想知道，“是什么阻碍了人们发挥创造力和思考更大的问题？”我认为这可以归结为公司不情愿地做了几件事，或者甚至没有意识到。
Eeke de Milliano: And one is this fear of failure.
Eeke de Milliano：其中之一就是对失败的恐惧。
I think leaders want the upside of innovation, but they're not really willing to deal with the cost of innovation.
我认为领导者希望获得创新的好处，但他们并不愿意承担创新的成本。
Which is like, "Look, if you're going to swing big, you will invariably stumble sometimes."
这就像，“听着，如果你要挥杆很大，有时你总是会绊倒。”
Eeke de Milliano: So I think if you want to mitigate that, you have to start shining light on failure.
Eeke de Milliano：所以我认为如果你想减轻这种情况，你必须开始关注失败。
That's really the only way.
这确实是唯一的办法。
You have to start normalizing it a little bit.
你必须开始稍微规范化它。
And obviously, if an individual, or if a team is consistently failing and not learning.
显然，如果一个人，或者一个团队不断失败并且不学习。
That, you need to deal with.
那，你需要处理。
Eeke de Milliano: But I think sometimes it's good to fail.
Eeke de Milliano：但我认为有时失败也是件好事。
And when you do fail, use it as an opportunity.
当你失败时，把它当作一个机会。
Don't squander that moment to not learn.
不要浪费这一刻而不去学习。
Eeke de Milliano: But yeah, one example is, instead of calling something a postmortem, call it a retrospective, so that it's a positive thing.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，是的，一个例子是，不要将某件事称为事后剖析，而是称为回顾，所以这是一件积极的事情。
Like, "Hey, we're learning from this thing."
就像，“嘿，我们正在从这件事中学习。”
Eeke de Milliano: And then, I think the other way to kind of mitigate the feeling of failure is, you have to figure out how to give folks more at BATS.
Eeke de Milliano：然后，我认为减轻失败感的另一种方法是，你必须弄清楚如何为 BATS 的人们提供更多。
Because obviously, anything that takes one year to ship, and you haven't gotten any customer feedback, the stakes of that are just going to feel so, so high.
因为显然，任何需要一年时间才能发货的东西，而且你还没有得到任何客户反馈，那么这样做的风险就会感觉非常非常高。
If you get it wrong, it's going to be devastating.
如果你弄错了，那将是毁灭性的。
So you have to figure out how to lower the stakes.
所以你必须弄清楚如何降低风险。
Eeke de Milliano: And honestly, I think in some ways it's kind of easy.
Eeke de Milliano：老实说，我认为在某些方面这很容易。
It's like, "Look, don't put too many resources against these bigger swings.
就像是，“看，不要投入太多资源来应对这些更大的波动。
Have them be small teams." And then also, just get customer feedback as quickly as possible.
让他们组成小团队。”然后，尽快获得客户反馈。
Don't wait until the thing is perfect.
不要等到事情完美了才去做。
And that way, you can limit the risk.
这样，您就可以限制风险。
Eeke de Milliano: So yeah, I think fear of failure, that's definitely one thing that stops teams from being innovative.
Eeke de Milliano：所以，是的，我认为对失败的恐惧，这绝对是阻止团队创新的一件事。
Eeke de Milliano: There's a very practical one.
Eeke de Milliano：有一个非常实用的。
Sometimes teams are just getting bogged down by really urgent work.
有时团队只是因为真正紧急的工作而陷入困境。
There's too much tech debt.
科技债务太多了。
There's too much product debt.
产品债务太多了。
Bugs, instability.
错误，不稳定。
It's a massive hierarchy of needs.
这是一个巨大的需求层次。
There's just no way that they're going to be able to focus on the enlightened, bigger, creative stuff if they're just heads-down dealing with incidents all day.
如果他们整天埋头处理事件，他们就不可能专注于开明的、更大的、有创造力的事情。
So if that's the case, yeah, diagnose it and get your team out of that.
所以如果是这种情况，是的，诊断一下并让你的团队摆脱困境。
Eeke de Milliano: And then, I think the last reason why teams aren't always that innovative is because, I think thinking big is really hard.
Eeke de Milliano：然后，我认为团队不总是那么创新的最后一个原因是，我认为大胆思考真的很难。
And to some people it comes pretty naturally.
对于某些人来说，这是很自然的。
But for most of us mortal souls, it's just really, really hard.
但对于我们大多数凡人的灵魂来说，这真的非常非常困难。
And it takes time.
这需要时间。
And when you're at a startup and you're just grinding day-in, day-out, you're treading water just trying to make it through the day.
当你在一家初创公司时，你日复一日地苦苦挣扎，你就像在原地踏步，只是想度过这一天。
Eeke de Milliano: Taking the time to really think about the strategy, and where things should go, and get creative.
Eeke de Milliano：花时间认真思考策略，以及事情应该走向何方，并发挥创意。
It's pretty hard.
这很难。
So I call this...
所以我称之为...
You have to give teams permission to think.
你必须允许团队思考。
So create these moments in your company culture, in your overall business processes, where you're asking people, you're literally saying, "Hey, this is part of your job to think bigger."
因此，在你的公司文化、整个业务流程中创造这些时刻，当你询问人们时，你实际上是在说，“嘿，这是你工作的一部分，要思考更大的问题。”
Eeke de Milliano: So at Retool, we have these team charters and we do team planning.
Eeke de Milliano：所以在 Retool，我们有这些团队章程，并且我们进行团队规划。
And at the bottom of every team charter we have a section called, Think Bigger.
在每个团队章程的底部，我们都有一个名为“思考更大”的部分。
"With 20% more time, what would you do that isn't on this list already?"
“如果还有 20% 的时间，你会做哪些尚未在此清单上的事情？”
Eeke de Milliano: And then another really neat tradition that we had at Stripe, and we have a Retool now, too.
Eeke de Milliano：我们在 Stripe 拥有的另一个非常巧妙的传统，现在我们也有了 Retool。
Is this thing called, Crazy Ideas.
这东西叫“疯狂的想法”吗？
So at the beginning of every year, David will send out a blank doc to the org and it's titled Crazy Ideas.
因此，每年年初，大卫都会向该组织发送一份空白文档，标题为“疯狂的想法”。
Eeke de Milliano: And the Prompt is, "Crazy ideas are ideas that we shouldn't, obviously, do.
Eeke de Milliano：提示是，“显然，疯狂的想法是我们不应该做的想法。
There's a 90% chance that they make no sense.
它们有 90% 的可能性毫无意义。
But in the 10% chance that they do, they will make a 10x to 100x difference for the retail business." And then, it's literally just a request for crazy ideas.
但如果他们这样做的可能性有 10%，他们将为零售业务带来 10 倍到 100 倍的变化。”然后，这实际上只是对疯狂想法的请求。
Eeke de Milliano: And the org loves it.
Eeke de Milliano：组织很喜欢它。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
The energy around it is so cool.
周围的能量是如此的凉爽。
And it's not just product ideas, it's different ways of how we should run our organization.
这不仅仅是产品创意，更是我们运营组织的不同方式。
Or, it's really cool marketing ideas in there.
或者，这里面的营销理念真的很酷。
Eeke de Milliano: So, that doc is awesome.
Eeke de Milliano：所以，那个医生很棒。
And whenever I have a down day, I just scroll through that doc.
每当我心情低落时，我就会滚动浏览该文档。
Lenny: I know that you've launched three different products this year which I want to talk about, which maybe came out of this big thinking.
Lenny：我知道你们今年推出了三种不同的产品，我想谈谈这三种产品，这可能是出于这个大的思考。
But a couple more questions just to dig into some of the stuff you just shared.
但还有几个问题只是为了深入了解您刚刚分享的一些内容。
Lenny: One is this big doc of awesome ideas.
莱尼：其中之一就是这个包含了很棒想法的大文档。
What's come out of that?
结果是什么呢？
Because I think of hackathons, and people have all this energy, and it's exciting.
因为我想到了黑客马拉松，人们充满活力，这令人兴奋。
And then they do all these cool things and they don't go anywhere.
然后他们做了所有这些很酷的事情，但他们哪儿也不去。
Lenny: Do things come out of this?
莱尼：事情是这样发生的吗？
Does it lead to actual ideas that people follow up on?
它是否会带来人们跟进的实际想法？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
So every year that we send out the doc, we look at the doc from the past year, and we're like, "Okay, did we do anything on this list?" And consistently, we do anywhere between three to eight things on the list.
因此，每年我们发出文档时，我们都会查看过去一年的文档，然后我们会想，“好吧，我们在这个清单上做了什么吗？”我们始终如一地做清单上的三到八件事。
Lenny: Is there an example of a product that launched, that came from that list, that comes to mind?
莱尼：有没有想到一个来自该列表的已推出产品的示例？
Eeke de Milliano: Actually, at least one, if not two of the three products that we launched this last year were on the crazy ideas list at one point.
Eeke de Milliano：实际上，我们去年推出的三款产品中，即使不是两款，也至少有一款曾一度出现在疯狂创意清单上。
Like, a year ago, if you'd asked me, "What is Retool's product?" I would've told you, "Retool helps you build internal frontends really, really fast."
就像一年前，如果你问我“Retool 的产品是什么？”我会告诉你，“Retool 可以帮助你非常非常快地构建内部前端。”
Eeke de Milliano: But if you were trying to schedule a query to run at a later point in time, or have something trigger, or run an ETL task, you couldn't do that in Retool.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，如果您尝试安排查询在稍后的时间点运行，或者有某些触发器，或者运行 ETL 任务，则无法在 Retool 中执行此操作。
So that was actually one of the crazy ideas.
所以这实际上是疯狂的想法之一。
And that ended up becoming Retool Workflows, which we launched just last year, in November.
这最终成为我们去年 11 月刚刚推出的 Retool Workflows。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
We're definitely going to chat a bit about that.
我们肯定会讨论一下这个问题。
I want to go back to the two other suggestions you had.
我想回到你提出的另外两个建议。
One is embrace failure, make it okay to fail.
一是拥抱失败，接受失败。
And then two is, don't let people get sucked into urgent stuff, and have time to focus on important stuff.
第二点是，不要让人们陷入紧急的事情中，而有时间专注于重要的事情。
Lenny: Is there an example of just how to help people embrace failure?
莱尼：有没有一个例子可以说明如何帮助人们接受失败？
You talked about retrospectives.
你谈到了回顾。
Is there anything else that you've found works, either as a tactic, as a process, as a framework, just to help people get out of that?
您是否发现还有其他有效的方法，无论是作为策略、过程还是框架，只是为了帮助人们摆脱困境？
Lenny: Because I hear that a lot, "Embrace failure." And then people are like, "Oh, but I failed and I suck." So yeah, is there anything else along those lines that you found effective to create that feeling?
莱尼：因为我经常听到“拥抱失败”。然后人们会说，“哦，但我失败了，我很糟糕。”那么，是的，您认为还有其他什么可以有效地创造这种感觉吗？
Eeke de Milliano: To me, it's always in the follow-ups.
Eeke de Milliano：对我来说，它总是在后续行动中。
So have people talk about the failure in these sort of public forums, where usually you talk about the successes.
因此，人们在这类公共论坛上谈论失败，而通常你在这些论坛上谈论成功。
So have someone actually write a note that's like, "Hey, here are all my learnings from this thing that we did." And send it to the org.
因此，请有人实际写一张便条，例如“嘿，这是我从我们所做的这件事中学到的所有教训。”并将其发送给组织。
Eeke de Milliano: At Retool we have a shipped email list.
Eeke de Milliano：在 Retool，我们有一个已发送的电子邮件列表。
If you ship something, you'll always send to that.
如果你运送东西，你总是会发送到那里。
Eeke de Milliano: Have them send that email to the org.
Eeke de Milliano：让他们将该电子邮件发送给组织。
It's just an awesome way to celebrate.
这只是一种很棒的庆祝方式。
Or have them present it all-hands and share what they learned.
或者让他们全体展示并分享他们学到的东西。
And it almost always results in, I think, a really positive twist.
我认为，它几乎总是会带来真正积极的转变。
Lenny: At Airbnb, I think for a period, there was an award for the biggest failure project and feature.
Lenny：在 Airbnb，我认为有一段时间，最大的失败项目和功能被授予了一个奖项。
Lenny: Yeah, like a trophy or something.
莱尼：是的，比如奖杯什么的。
It was a short-lived idea, but it was funny.
这是一个短暂的想法，但很有趣。
Lenny: And then, on the second bullet point of urgency, giving people a chance to think longer term.
莱尼：然后，关于第二个紧迫问题，让人们有机会进行更长远的思考。
Is there anything there, that you found to be actually effective, to create that culture, and give PMs and product teams a chance to think longer term, and not just be stuck in the fires that they're dealing with?
您发现有什么实际上有效的方法可以创建这种文化，并让产品经理和产品团队有机会进行更长远的思考，而不仅仅是陷入他们正在处理的困境中？
Eeke de Milliano: There's a couple of top-down things, and a couple of bottom-up things.
Eeke de Milliano：有一些自上而下的事情，还有一些自下而上的事情。
Eeke de Milliano: On the top-down, sometimes you just have to be willing to fund someone with something.
Eeke de Milliano：从上到下，有时你只需要愿意用某些东西资助某人即可。
Like, they come to you with an idea and you're like, "Look, yeah, take an engineer and go do it." And you just have to give folks that sort of organizational buy-in.
就像，他们带着一个想法来找你，你会说，“看，是的，带一个工程师去做吧。”你只需要给予人们这种组织上的支持。
Eeke de Milliano: Actually, I was thinking back to that engineer, Brian Krausz at Stripe, who started poking around on this marketplace model.
Eeke de Milliano：实际上，我回想起了 Stripe 的工程师 Brian Krausz，他开始研究这个市场模型。
And I was thinking, I can't remember a moment when someone formally said to him, "This is now your job." I think he just went and looked, and went and dug into it.
我在想，我不记得何时有人正式对他说：“现在这是你的工作了。”我认为他只是去看了看，然后去深入研究。
And at some point, I think a manager was like, "All right, this is now your job."
在某些时候，我认为经理会说，“好吧，现在这是你的工作了。”
Eeke de Milliano: But yeah, no, I think you have to be able to fund folks' time and give that.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，是的，不，我认为你必须能够资助人们的时间并给予他们。
Hackathons, I think, are pretty good for that stuff.
我认为，黑客马拉松非常适合这些东西。
It is kind of a moment for folks to take a step back.
现在是人们退后一步的时刻。
Eeke de Milliano: And then, I think more than anything, in people's planning processes, I really like asking folks the 20% more time question.
Eeke de Milliano：然后，我认为最重要的是，在人们的规划过程中，我真的很喜欢问人们“多花 20% 的时间”的问题。
Or the other question was, "Look, if you doubled the team today, what would you do?" That shows up in our planning processes as well.
或者另一个问题是，“看，如果你今天将球队加倍，你会做什么？”这也体现在我们的规划流程中。
Eeke de Milliano: And I think it really helps people kind of break out of this...
Eeke de Milliano：我认为这确实可以帮助人们摆脱困境......
I think you end up planning towards the team that you have and not the team that you should have.
我认为你最终会针对你拥有的团队进行规划，而不是你应该拥有的团队。
So, that's how folks can break out of that process.
所以，这就是人们如何摆脱这个过程。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
I really like the think bigger bucket in your planning docs.
我真的很喜欢你的规划文档中的“思考更大的桶”。
Just like, "What would you do if you had more resources?" Maybe a quick question there.
就像“如果你有更多资源你会做什么？”也许有一个简单的问题。
Is there a bunch of detail that you ask them to put into that, or is it just a bullet point of big ideas?
您是否要求他们提供大量细节，或者只是一些重要想法的要点？
Eeke de Milliano: Folks can just go crazy on it.
Eeke de Milliano：人们会为之疯狂。
It's however they want to take it.
然而他们想接受它。
I've seen folks actually create entire demos.
我见过人们实际上创建了整个演示。
Eeke de Milliano: But I actually think the trick is less structure, in those cases.
Eeke de Milliano：但我实际上认为在这些情况下，诀窍在于减少结构。
Because you don't really want to sort of pigeonhole...
因为你真的不想被归类...
Or make it even that intimidating for folks.
或者让它对人们来说甚至是令人生畏的。
If someone just wants to write down a few bullets, that's great.
如果有人只想写下一些要点，那就太好了。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Eppo.
Lenny：这一集是 Eppo 为您带来的。
Eppo is a next-generation A/B testing platform, built by Airbnb alums for modern growth teams.
Eppo 是下一代 A/B 测试平台，由 Airbnb 校友为现代增长团队打造。
Companies like Netlify, Contentful and Cameo rely on Eppo to power their experiments.
Netlify、Contentful 和 Cameo 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。
Lenny: Wherever you work, running experiments is increasingly essential, but there are no commercial tools that integrate with a modern growth team stack.
Lenny：无论您在哪里工作，进行实验都变得越来越重要，但是没有可以与现代增长团队堆栈集成的商业工具。
This leads to a waste of time building internal tools, or trying to run your experiments through a clunky marketing tool.
这会导致浪费时间构建内部工具，或尝试通过笨重的营销工具进行实验。
Lenny: When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I loved about our experimentation platform, was being able to easily slice results by device, by country, and by user stage.
Lenny：当我在 Airbnb 时，我喜欢我们的实验平台的一件事是能够轻松地按设备、国家和用户阶段划分结果。
Eppo does all that and more.
Eppo 做到了这一切，甚至更多。
Delivering results quickly, avoiding annoying prolonged analytics cycles, and helping you easily get to the root cause of any issue you discover.
快速提供结果，避免恼人的长时间分析周期，并帮助您轻松找到所发现问题的根本原因。
Lenny: Eppo lets you go beyond basic click-through metrics and instead, use their North Star metrics like activation, retention, subscriptions and payments.
Lenny：Eppo 可以让您超越基本的点击率指标，而是使用他们的北极星指标，例如激活、保留、订阅和付款。
And Eppo supports tests on the frontend, the backend, email marketing, and even machine learning clients.
Eppo 支持前端、后端、电子邮件营销、甚至机器学习客户端的测试。
Lenny: Check out Eppo at GetEppo.com.
Lenny：在 GetEppo.com 上查看 Eppo。
Get E-P-P-O.com and 10x your experiment velocity.
获取 E-P-P-O.com，让您的实验速度提高 10 倍。
Lenny: Okay, so you launched three new products this year.
莱尼：好的，今年你们推出了三款新产品。
Usually, companies are lucky to launch one product a year.
通常，公司很幸运能够每年推出一款产品。
A few questions.
有几个问题。
Lenny: One, just tell us what those three were, in case people are interested and want to check them out.
莱尼：一，请告诉我们这三个是什么，以防人们感兴趣并想查看它们。
Two is, was that a good idea?
二是，这是个好主意吗？
Is it good to launch three new products in a year?
一年推出三款新品好吗？
Lenny: And then three, what did you do organizationally, to allow for this to happen?
莱尼：然后第三，为了让这种情况发生，你在组织上做了什么？
Because that feels really ambitious and rare, and I'm curious what you learned from that.
因为这感觉非常雄心勃勃且罕见，我很好奇你从中学到了什么。
Eeke de Milliano: So the three products we launched, one was Retool Workflows that I talked to you a little bit about.
Eeke de Milliano：我们推出了三款产品，其中一款是 Retool Workflows，我和您谈过这一点。
It's like, if you want to be able to, essentially create a workflow.
就像，如果您希望能够创建一个工作流程。
Like schedule an alert, run a task, you can kind of do it in the Retool way.
就像安排警报、运行任务一样，您可以通过 Retool 方式来完成。
Where it's this visual, sort of easier builder of creating these different sort of workflows.
正是这种视觉效果，让创建这些不同类型的工作流程变得更加容易。
But you can write your own code on top of it, as well.
但您也可以在其上编写自己的代码。
Eeke de Milliano: The second product is Retool Mobile.
Eeke de Milliano：第二个产品是Retool Mobile。
So you could pretty easily build incredible web apps with Retool.
因此，您可以使用 Retool 轻松构建令人难以置信的 Web 应用程序。
But there are plenty of folks who don't sit behind their laptop at a desk all day.
但有很多人不会整天坐在办公桌前的笔记本电脑后面。
And for those folks...
而对于那些人...
We had a lot of companies who were like, "I want a mobile native app." And so, we launched that product.
我们有很多公司都说，“我想要一个移动原生应用程序。”因此，我们推出了该产品。
Eeke de Milliano: And then the third product was Retool Database.
Eeke de Milliano：然后第三个产品是 Retool Database。
So until very recently, if you came to Retool, you could connect your data via your APIs, your database, directly into Retool.
因此，直到最近，如果您使用 Retool，您可以通过 API、数据库将数据直接连接到 Retool。
Eeke de Milliano: But what we found is that actually, a lot of folks either don't have access to their database, or they're just trying to build an internal tool and they don't necessarily want to store that data in their production database.
Eeke de Milliano：但我们发现实际上，很多人要么无法访问他们的数据库，要么他们只是试图构建一个内部工具，但他们不一定希望将该数据存储在他们的生产数据库中。
Eeke de Milliano: So we built...
Eeke de Milliano：所以我们建造了......
Essentially, we spin up a post database for you.
本质上，我们为您建立一个帖子数据库。
And you can just access it via a really nice UI and manage it directly in Retool.
您可以通过一个非常漂亮的 UI 访问它并直接在 Retool 中管理它。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Okay, back to the other two questions.
好吧，回到另外两个问题。
Eeke de Milliano: Yes.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
Okay.
好的。
So I think your second question was, "Was this a good idea?"
所以我认为你的第二个问题是，“这是个好主意吗？”
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
You know what?
你知道吗？
I think in hindsight, if I were to do it again, I think sequencing it would've been slightly better.
事后看来，如果我再做一次，我认为排序会更好一些。
Just because, I think what we ended up doing is, we ended up launching the idea behind all three of these products at around the same time.
只是因为，我认为我们最终所做的是，我们最终大约在同一时间推出了所有这三个产品背后的想法。
And they all ended up maturing at around the same time, and that was just a lot of headspace from the org.
他们几乎在同一时间成熟，这只是组织的大量顶空。
Even though actually, the teams themselves were not that big.
尽管实际上，团队本身并没有那么大。
Eeke de Milliano: It was just like, we had all these products and we were just waiting for them to launch and waiting for them to launch.
Eeke de Milliano：就像我们拥有所有这些产品，我们只是在等待它们推出并等待它们推出。
Whereas, maybe if we'd sequenced it, I think that would've felt more satisfying to the whole organization.
然而，也许如果我们对其进行排序，我认为整个组织都会感到更满意。
Eeke de Milliano: But, I mean, it ended up working out.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，我的意思是，它最终成功了。
I think that's kind of the crazy thing.
我认为这有点疯狂。
It's like, we were able to pull off launching these three products.
就像我们能够成功推出这三款产品一样。
Eeke de Milliano: And by the way, I should caveat that, the further I get along my career, the more I realize I'm just kind of building on the shoulders of giants.
Eeke de Milliano：顺便说一句，我应该警告一下，我的职业生涯越深入，我就越意识到我只是站在巨人的肩膀上。
And a lot of these ideas, et cetera, were very much in the works and were happening before I came along.
很多这样的想法等等，在我出现之前就已经在酝酿之中并且已经发生了。
Eeke de Milliano: But yeah, it was really neat to see how we got that all over the finish line in a year.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，是的，看到我们如何在一年内冲过终点线真是太棒了。
Lenny: And then, the last question there is just, what do you think you did to allow for this?
莱尼：然后，最后一个问题是，你认为你做了什么来允许这种情况发生？
Because it's pretty rare you can build so much.
因为你能建造这么多东西是非常罕见的。
And I know the team's not huge.
我知道这个团队并不庞大。
How many people work at Retool, roughly?
Retool 大约有多少人？
Eeke de Milliano: Today, we're around 300 people.
Eeke de Milliano：今天，我们大约有 300 名员工。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
So how do you structure an org to build three and launch...
那么，如何构建一个组织来构建三个并启动......
I didn't realize they launched around the same time.
我没有意识到他们几乎在同一时间推出。
It's like, I'm picturing Elon Musk launching three rockets at once.
就像，我想象埃隆·马斯克同时发射三枚火箭。
How do you allow for that to happen?
你如何允许这种情况发生？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah, I'm sure our product marketing team felt that way.
Eeke de Milliano：是的，我确信我们的产品营销团队也有这种感觉。
Yeah, a couple of things.
是的，有几件事。
We started really small with all of these initiatives.
我们从所有这些举措开始都是很小的。
Eeke de Milliano: So I think I mentioned, we really had one or two people working on each of these products for the first six months.
Eeke de Milliano：所以我想我提到过，在前六个月里，我们确实有一两个人在开发这些产品。
So it was one engineer and one designer, or one engineer and one PM.
所以是一名工程师和一名设计师，或者一名工程师和一名产品经理。
And they really didn't get funding until it was clear that there was something there.
直到人们清楚地知道那里有什么东西，他们才真正获得资金。
Eeke de Milliano: So those teams, they spent a ton of time with customers.
Eeke de Milliano：这些团队花了很多时间与客户打交道。
They spent a ton of time building, a ton of time prototyping.
他们花费了大量时间进行构建、原型设计。
And it was kind of the moment where it was like, "Okay, they are there." That we started bringing more people onto the team.
那一刻就像是，“好吧，他们就在那里。”我们开始让更多的人加入团队。
Eeke de Milliano: So, that was the first piece.
Eeke de Milliano：所以，这是第一件作品。
The second piece is that, we really treated them like startups.
第二点是，我们真的像对待初创公司一样对待他们。
We're like, Retool's the VC, and Retool funds with resources and Retool's existing customer base.
我们就像，Retool 是风险投资家，Retool 拥有资源和 Retool 现有客户群的资金。
Which is obviously quite valuable, because you have all these customers you can market to and promote to.
这显然是非常有价值的，因为你拥有所有可以向其进行营销和推广的客户。
Eeke de Milliano: But then, the teams really had to prove that ROI.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，团队确实必须证明投资回报率。
Either in engagement, or eventually revenue, in order to be able to move forward.
无论是参与度，还是最终的收入，以便能够向前发展。
Eeke de Milliano: And then the third thing...
Eeke de Milliano：然后第三件事......
And this one, actually I think it can be quite controversial.
而这一点，实际上我认为可能会引起很大争议。
Is, we were really deliberate about keeping these teams separate from the rest of the org, especially early on.
是的，我们确实有意将这些团队与组织的其他部分分开，尤其是在早期。
Now, a lot of them, they're very much a part of the overall organizational processes.
现在，他们中的很多人已经成为整个组织流程的一部分。
Eeke de Milliano: But very early on, they were running on their own.
Eeke de Milliano：但很早以前，他们就自己运行。
They were meeting quite independently with one, or two, or three folks from the leadership team.
他们非常独立地与领导团队中的一两个或三个人会面。
And they were also just quite separate from the product itself.
而且它们也与产品本身完全分开。
Eeke de Milliano: I think Retool Mobile's actually a really good example, where we had a lot of debate about whether or not we should build Retool Mobile out of the core web app builder.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为 Retool Mobile 实际上是一个很好的例子，我们就是否应该从核心 Web 应用程序构建器中构建 Retool Mobile 进行了很多争论。
Because a lot of the primitives are the same.
因为很多原语都是相同的。
Eeke de Milliano: And we eventually decided that we were going to run it as a separate team, because we wanted the team to be able to move really, really quickly.
Eeke de Milliano：我们最终决定将其作为一个单独的团队来运营，因为我们希望团队能够非常非常快地行动。
And we didn't want it to get bogged down in, what are just the realities of running a product that has product market fit, like bugs, yada, yada, et cetera.
我们不希望它陷入困境，运行一个适合产品市场的产品的现实是什么，比如 bug、yada、yada 等等。
Eeke de Milliano: And I think that was absolutely the right call, because Retool Mobile actually has quite a different target customer.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为这绝对是正确的决定，因为 Retool Mobile 实际上有一个完全不同的目标客户。
Which, we only really realized maybe like halfway through the project.
我们直到项目进行到一半才真正意识到这一点。
And I don't think we would've been able to really understand that, or even get broader in that kind of thinking, had we sort of been stuck in the core retail product.
我认为，如果我们一直停留在核心零售产品上，我们就无法真正理解这一点，甚至无法扩大这种思维。
Eeke de Milliano: But yeah, there was a cost to that, too.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，是的，这也是有代价的。
Which is like, "Okay, now we have these two products, and we have to..." I think obviously the strength will be, "How do all these products interact with each other, and how do they build on top of each other?"
就像，“好吧，现在我们有了这两种产品，我们必须......”我认为显然优势将是，“所有这些产品如何相互作用，以及它们如何相互构建？”
Eeke de Milliano: So, we have to go and invest in that now.
Eeke de Milliano：所以，我们现在必须对此进行投资。
But I think it's totally worth it, because your team can just move more quickly, be more independent, and think more independently, too.
但我认为这是完全值得的，因为你的团队可以更快地行动，更加独立，也更加独立思考。
Lenny: In the time that you worked at Stripe and Retool...
Lenny：当你在 Stripe 和 Retool 工作时......
I know we chatted before we started recording.
我知道我们在开始录音之前聊过。
You think a lot about, "What is the right level of process for companies at different stages?"
你经常思考“对于处于不同阶段的公司来说，合适的流程水平是什么？”
Lenny: And I'd love to just hear your thoughts, because I know that's a challenge a lot of companies face.
莱尼：我很想听听您的想法，因为我知道这是很多公司面临的挑战。
"How much do we put in now?
“我们现在投入多少钱？
Do we get inspiration from big companies?
我们从大公司那里得到灵感吗？
Do we try to stay lean?"
我们要努力保持苗条吗？”
Lenny: Something here, that we actually run into.
莱尼：我们确实遇到了一些事情。
I'll just mention briefly that, there was a huge resistance to process for a long time.
我只想简单提一下，长期以来，流程面临着巨大的阻力。
And so the product team was just kind of a little crazy for a bit.
所以产品团队有一段时间有点疯狂。
And then we were like, "Okay, we need product development process.
然后我们说，“好吧，我们需要产品开发流程。
We need deadlines and specs." And that helped a lot.
我们需要最后期限和规格。”这很有帮助。
Lenny: So let me ask again, just how do you think about the right level of process for a stage of company, and what have you learned there?
Lenny：那么让我再问一次，您如何看待公司某个阶段的正确流程水平？您从中学到了什么？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
What I would really love from companies is just sort of like this time capsule, where you can see what their processes were when they were like 20 people, and 50 people, and 100 people, and 500 people.
我真正喜欢的公司就是这样一个时间胶囊，你可以在其中看到他们有 20 人、50 人、100 人、500 人时的流程。
Eeke de Milliano: Because when we were at Stripe and we were trying to figure out our planning process, we actually talked to Amazon, and Atlassian, and Apple, and all these companies that we really, really respect and look up to.
Eeke de Milliano：因为当我们在 Stripe 时，我们试图弄清楚我们的规划流程，我们实际上与亚马逊、Atlassian、苹果以及所有这些我们非常非常尊重和尊敬的公司进行了交谈。
Eeke de Milliano: And I remember taking down notes from these companies and being like, "Yeah, this is awesome, but there's no way that this will work for Stripe." Stripe was so much smaller than any of these companies.
Eeke de Milliano：我记得记下这些公司的笔记，然后说：“是的，这太棒了，但这对 Stripe 来说是行不通的。” Stripe 比这些公司都小得多。
Eeke de Milliano: So yeah, they were showing us where we had to go, but no idea how to get there.
Eeke de Milliano：是的，他们向我们展示了我们必须去的地方，但不知道如何到达那里。
And so, yeah, Lenny, maybe you can help us figure out time capsules for companies and what processes make sense.
所以，是的，莱尼，也许你可以帮助我们找出公司的时间胶囊以及哪些流程有意义。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I am working on that, roughly.
我正在做这方面的工作，大概是这样。
Lenny: I'm going company by company, about how they think process and about process.
莱尼：我会逐家询问他们如何看待流程以及流程。
And then maybe I'll check in every couple of years.
然后也许我会每隔几年检查一次。
Eeke de Milliano: Cool.
Eeke de Milliano：酷。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
But yeah, to answer your question directly.
但是，是的，直接回答你的问题。
Process...
过程...
Yeah, it really gives people a bitter taste in their mouth, I think.
是的，我觉得这确实让人嘴里有苦涩的味道。
Eeke de Milliano: Process, by definition, is variance reducing.
Eeke de Milliano：根据定义，流程就是减少方差。
You're introducing it, because you worry that the variance in your org is too high.
您之所以引入它，是因为您担心组织中的差异太大。
You want people to sort of meet a certain standard.
你希望人们达到一定的标准。
Eeke de Milliano: And the cost of that is obviously, while you are reducing the standard and bringing folks up to the average, you're also bringing other folks down to the average.
Eeke de Milliano：显然，这样做的代价是，当你降低标准并使人们达到平均水平时，你也将其他人降低到平均水平。
And oftentimes, the folks you're bringing down are your highest performers, your most creative thinkers.
通常，你打倒的人是你表现最好的人、你最有创造力的思想家。
The folks who, I think actually don't really need process to do their best work.
我认为这些人实际上并不需要流程来完成最好的工作。
Eeke de Milliano: And so, that, I think is always the tension that you have with process.
Eeke de Milliano：所以，我认为这始终是流程中的紧张因素。
And obviously one of the reasons why companies introduce process much more and more, as companies get bigger, is because it's harder to get all these folks who don't need processing.
显然，随着公司规模的扩大，公司越来越多地引入流程的原因之一是因为很难找到所有不需要流程的人。
You actually want to reduce the variance.
您实际上想减少方差。
Eeke de Milliano: This is actually a little bit of an aside, but it's kind of relevant, so I'm just going to mention it.
Eeke de Milliano：这实际上有点题外话，但它有点相关，所以我只想提一下。
And you can feel free to let me know if it's too much of an aside.
如果这是多余的，你可以随时告诉我。
Eeke de Milliano: But, I was just listening to this awesome podcast with Russ Roberts, who's a professor.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，我刚刚和教授 Russ Roberts 一起听了这个很棒的播客。
He hosts EconTalk.
他主持 EconTalk。
I don't know if you listen to it.
我不知道你是否听过。
Eeke de Milliano: And he was in interviewing this guy, Ian Leslie, who's this great writer and has just written this article that's...
Eeke de Milliano：他正在采访这个人，Ian Leslie，他是一位伟大的作家，刚刚写了这篇文章......
Basically, something along the lines of what it means to be human in the age of AI.
基本上，这与人工智能时代人类的意义类似。
Eeke de Milliano: And I thought he just articulated this idea well.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为他很好地阐述了这个想法。
Which is, we're all really so impressed when we see ChatGPT-3 spit out this piece of writing that feels very human-like.
也就是说，当我们看到 ChatGPT-3 吐出这篇感觉非常人性化的文章时，我们都非常印象深刻。
Eeke de Milliano: But what we're kind of forgetting is that, over the last 10, 20, 30 years, we're actually asking humans to be a lot more robot-like.
Eeke de Milliano：但我们有点忘记了，在过去的 10 年、20 年、30 年里，我们实际上要求人类变得更像机器人。
In that, we're really asking everyone to standardize in a lot of ways.
在这方面，我们确实要求每个人在很多方面都实现标准化。
And we're making people a lot more formulaic.
我们正在让人们变得更加公式化。
If you think about how we teach people to write, it's like, "Well, there's five paragraphs.
如果你想想我们如何教人们写作，就像是，“嗯，有五个段落。
And there's your opening paragraph.
这是你的开头段落。
And you state your topic."
然后你说出你的主题。”
Eeke de Milliano: So anyway, I think the point is, the more formulaic, the more sort of mass produced you're trying to make something.
Eeke de Milliano：所以无论如何，我认为重点是，你想要制作的东西越公式化，就越能大规模生产。
The more you kind of quench people's creativity, and the further away you get from the really, really high highs.
你越是抑制人们的创造力，你离真正的巅峰就越远。
And that, to me, is the cost of process, and rules, and templates.
对我来说，这就是流程、规则和模板的成本。
Eeke de Milliano: So if you're going to introduce it, be really, really sure that you're okay with that cost.
Eeke de Milliano：因此，如果您要推出它，请务必非常确定您可以接受该成本。
And give folks escape hatches.
并为人们提供逃生舱口。
Eeke de Milliano: So I've started referring to this as the MVP, the minimum viable process.
Eeke de Milliano：所以我开始将其称为 MVP，即最小可行流程。
So if I give folks a template, I'm like, "Look, use the template.
因此，如果我给人们一个模板，我会说，“看，使用该模板。
But if you want to break out of it, please absolutely do." And I've started writing this at the top of templates now.
但如果你想摆脱它，请绝对这样做。”我现在已经开始在模板顶部编写此内容。
Eeke de Milliano: It's like, "If this doesn't work for what you're trying to explain, don't use it.
Eeke de Milliano：就像是，“如果这对你想要解释的内容不起作用，就不要使用它。
But just know that this is the minimum viable thing.
但要知道这是最低限度可行的事情。
We're setting the bar here, but go higher if you can, please."
我们在这里设定了标准，但如果可以的话，请设定更高的标准。”
Eeke de Milliano: So anyway, that's my sort of long drive on process.
Eeke de Milliano：所以无论如何，这就是我的一个漫长的过程。
With all that said, I do think that companies, there's just a set of documents that are really, really viable.
话虽如此，我确实认为公司只有一套真正可行的文件。
That every sort of level of the organization should have throughout its lifecycle.
组织的各个级别都应该在其整个生命周期中拥有这一点。
Eeke de Milliano: And then, I think how sort of involved it is, or how long term it is really depends on how big you are.
Eeke de Milliano：然后，我认为它的参与程度或持续时间实际上取决于您的规模有多大。
Eeke de Milliano: But those documents, to me, are the charter.
Eeke de Milliano：但对我来说，这些文件就是章程。
So, "What is your mission, your vision and your strategy?" The goals, "What are you aiming to do and how are you going to measure success?" And then the roadmap, "What is the thing that you're shipping?"
那么，“你的使命、愿景和战略是什么？”目标是“你的目标是什么？你将如何衡量成功？”然后是路线图，“您要运送的东西是什么？”
Eeke de Milliano: And I think the whole company needs these, the whole function.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为整个公司都需要这些，整个职能。
So in product, you need all three of these.
所以在产品中，你需要这三个。
And then, within each team you need all three of these.
然后，在每个团队中，您都需要这三者。
Eeke de Milliano: And I've kind of noticed two things about this framework for myself.
Eeke de Milliano：我自己注意到了关于这个框架的两件事。
One, I've actually noticed that teams often work their way from the bottom-up, versus top-down.
第一，我实际上注意到团队通常是自下而上而不是自上而下地工作。
They start with a roadmap.
他们从路线图开始。
They're like, "What are all the things we're going to ship?" Especially early on.
他们会问，“我们要运送什么东西？”尤其是早期。
And then they kind of work their way into a charter.
然后他们就制定了章程。
But I think it's really, really worth it to start from the top-down.
但我认为从自上而下开始确实非常值得。
Eeke de Milliano: And then, the second thing that I've noticed is that your time horizon really shifts as you get more mature.
Eeke de Milliano：然后，我注意到的第二件事是，随着你变得更加成熟，你的时间范围确实会发生变化。
So if you're very early on, you don't have PMF, you should have a charter, but your charter should be like three months in the future.
因此，如果您很早，没有 PMF，您应该有一份章程，但您的章程应该是未来三个月的时间。
Because you can't look that much further.
因为你不能看得那么远。
Eeke de Milliano: And if you're a company that's humming and going, your charter is probably...
Eeke de Milliano：如果您是一家蓬勃发展的公司，您的章程可能是......
The horizon's maybe a decade.
地平线可能是十年。
Lenny: Wow.
莱尼：哇。
There is so much there.
那里有很多东西。
I could go into so many different directions.
我可以进入很多不同的方向。
One thing I wanted to follow up on a little bit, is this idea...
我想跟进的一件事是这个想法......
Such a great point.
这是一个很好的观点。
That process brings the best people down and kind of averages them out to create consistency.
这个过程会降低最优秀的人才的水平，并对他们进行平均，以保持一致性。
Lenny: And I'm curious if there's anything else you've seen succeed in allowing the best and most innovative brains to just do their thing.
莱尼：我很好奇你是否还见过其他任何东西能够成功地让最优秀、最具创新性的大脑去做他们的事情。
I know part of it is probably hiring amazing people.
我知道其中一部分可能是雇佣优秀的人才。
But yeah, is there anything else that's an escape hatch of just like, "Oh yeah, this person, just go.
但是，是的，还有其他什么可以作为逃生口，就像“哦，是的，这个人，走吧。
Go figure this out."
去想办法吧。”
Eeke de Milliano: To me, the unlock for organizations is managers, for this.
Eeke de Milliano：对我来说，组织的解锁是管理者，为此。
Because you need managers to both detect the high performers and be like, "This person doesn't need the process." And then you need managers to give that person air cover to be like, "We're honestly..." Because what you're doing is, you're giving them some special treatment and you need to be kind of okay with that.
因为你需要管理者既能发现高绩效者，又能说：“这个人不需要这个流程。”然后你需要管理者给那个人提供空中掩护，就像是，“我们说实话......”因为你正在做的是，你正在给他们一些特殊待遇，你需要对此表示同意。
Eeke de Milliano: And you also need to be okay with the organizational cost for that.
Eeke de Milliano：您还需要接受为此的组织成本。
Claire, who used to be the COO of Stripe, would always say, "Are you willing to break the org for this person?" And I always thought that was a really nice framing.
曾经担任 Stripe 首席运营官的 Claire 总是会说：“你愿意为了这个人而打破这个组织吗？”我一直认为这是一个非常好的框架。
And you kind of need to decide who you want to do it for, too.
而且你还需要决定你想为谁做这件事。
Eeke de Milliano: But yeah, some people are just that good that like, "Yeah, of course you'll break the org for them." They're going to break the org in the best way possible.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，是的，有些人就是那么优秀，就像，“是的，当然你会为他们打破组织。”他们将以尽可能最好的方式破坏这个组织。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I love that term.
我喜欢这个词。
I think Claire's coming on this podcast.
我想克莱尔会来参加这个播客。
She just wrote a book, right?
她刚刚写了一本书，对吗？
Is that the same person?
这是同一个人吗？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah, she just wrote a book.
Eeke de Milliano：是的，她刚刚写了一本书。
Yep.
是的。
Lenny: All right, we just booked her.
莱尼：好吧，我们刚刚预订了她。
Come, and maybe we'll spend some time together.
来吧，也许我们会花一些时间在一起。
Lenny: Do you have any other product building philosophies that you found especially useful in your time at Stripe, and Retool, and anywhere else?
Lenny：在您在 Stripe、Retool 和其他地方工作期间，您是否还有其他特别有用的产品构建理念？
Eeke de Milliano: I have a couple of, I guess, specific mental models that I use.
Eeke de Milliano：我想，我使用了一些特定的心理模型。
The first is, build for your best user, not your worst user.
首先，为最好的用户而不是最差的用户构建。
Eeke de Milliano: And what I mean by that is, I think it's actually really easy to get stuck, or to focus on, "What if there's abuse of this product?" Or think about all the ways in which the product won't be used well.
Eeke de Milliano：我的意思是，我认为实际上很容易陷入困境，或者专注于“如果该产品被滥用怎么办？”或者想想产品在哪些方面不会得到很好的使用。
And then you end up sort of shaping the product in these really weird funky ways to make up for that.
然后你最终会用这些非常奇怪的时髦方式来塑造产品来弥补这一点。
Eeke de Milliano: Whereas in reality, the worst users, they should be a fraction of your users anyway.
Eeke de Milliano：而实际上，最差的用户无论如何都应该是您用户的一小部分。
So you shouldn't really be building for them.
所以你不应该真正为他们构建。
Eeke de Milliano: I think a really good example of this is onboarding processes.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为一个很好的例子就是入职流程。
Where, you're probably going to be building an onboarding process, where you're trying to collect a lot of data.
您可能会在其中构建一个入职流程，并尝试收集大量数据。
Or trying to figure out, "Hey, how do I help this user who maybe isn't well suited for my product to be successful?"
或者试图弄清楚，“嘿，我如何帮助这个可能不太适合我的产品的用户取得成功？”
Eeke de Milliano: Really, you should just be building an onboarding process for the user who's going to jump into your product and get it immediately.
Eeke de Milliano：实际上，您应该为将要使用您的产品并立即使用它的用户构建一个入门流程。
Eeke de Milliano: I was thinking about this actually just the other day.
Eeke de Milliano：实际上我前几天还在考虑这个问题。
Because we were in this product review, and we were talking about this other new product that we're thinking of exploring.
因为我们在这个产品评论中，我们正在谈论我们正在考虑探索的另一个新产品。
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah, exactly.
Eeke de Milliano： 是的，完全正确。
And we're kind of going down this path of like, "Oh, well if this gets really big, there's going to be all this abuse of the product." And Anthony, our founder was like, "Wouldn't that be an amazing problem to have?" And we're like, "Yeah, that's a really good point."
我们会沿着这条路走下去，“哦，如果事情真的变得很大，就会出现对产品的滥用。”我们的创始人安东尼说：“这难道不是一个令人惊奇的问题吗？”我们会说，“是的，这是一个非常好的观点。”
Eeke de Milliano: So we kind of put that on the back burner.
Eeke de Milliano：所以我们把它放在了次要位置。
Lenny: That's an interesting approach, because usually you're trying to optimize a flow, get more people through it, which are the least good users.You're saying you found more success just focusing...
莱尼：这是一个有趣的方法，因为通常你会尝试优化流程，让更多的人通过它，而这些人是最不好的用户。你是说你发现更多的成功只是专注......
Lenny: Is this more initially, focus on the users that will understand this, and be excited about it, and make that work really well.
Lenny：这是否是一开始就关注那些能够理解这一点、对此感到兴奋的用户，并使之真正发挥作用。
And then, over time, build on that?
然后，随着时间的推移，在此基础上继续发展？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah, totally.
Eeke de Milliano：是的，完全可以。
Yeah, sure.
是的，当然。
If you're going to look at the end, and you're trying to optimize, et cetera, absolutely.
如果你要看看最后，并且你正在尝试优化等等，绝对是这样。
But in that sort of early product development stage, it's just not worth it to be too focused on that.
但在产品开发的早期阶段，过于关注这一点是不值得的。
Eeke de Milliano: So, that's one.
Eeke de Milliano：所以，就是这样。
The other one, our head of design, Ryan, always kind of reminds us of is, build the scooter, not the axle.
另一位，我们的设计主管瑞安，总是提醒我们，建造踏板车，而不是车轴。
Eeke de Milliano: So if you're trying to build the minimum viable product for a car, don't build just the wheels and the axle, build the scooter first.
Eeke de Milliano：因此，如果您想为汽车制造最小可行产品，请不要只制造车轮和车轴，而应首先制造踏板车。
And then from there, you build the bicycle, and the motorcycle, and then the car.
然后从那里开始制造自行车、摩托车，然后是汽车。
Eeke de Milliano: And it's always just such a good reminder.
Eeke de Milliano：这总是一个很好的提醒。
You always want to start building the whole thing.
你总是想开始构建整个东西。
But really try and think about the slice that gets the customer to complete value on a smaller thing first.
但要真正尝试并思考如何让客户首先在较小的事情上实现价值。
Eeke de Milliano: So with Retool Mobile for example, there's just so much you could be building there.
Eeke de Milliano：以 Retool Mobile 为例，您可以在那里构建很多东西。
And we decided very specifically, "Hey, we're only going to build this for companies that have field workers and they would need to do inventory management."
我们非常具体地决定，“嘿，我们只会为拥有现场工作人员并且需要进行库存管理的公司构建这个。”
Eeke de Milliano: And it's a very specific slice, but it helps get through from something that was actually viable, beginning to end.
Eeke de Milliano：这是一个非常具体的部分，但它有助于从头到尾了解实际可行的事情。
Lenny: Got it.
莱尼：明白了。
So it's an approach for MVPs, basically.
所以这基本上是 MVP 的一种方法。
Make something simple and functional, not just something barely...
做一些简单而实用的东西，而不仅仅是勉强的东西......
Not actually working, but getting you to some dream product eventually.
并不是真正起作用，而是最终让你得到一些梦想的产品。
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
And then the last one is this idea of 70/20/10 split investments.
最后一个是 70/20/10 分割投资的想法。
I really think that a lot of product management can sometimes be reduced to funnels and portfolios.
我真的认为很多产品管理有时可以简化为渠道和投资组合。
Eeke de Milliano: So the 70/20/10 investments model in my head is just like, 70% of your building time should really be going to your core product, that has product market fit.
Eeke de Milliano：所以我脑海中的 70/20/10 投资模型就像是，70% 的构建时间应该真正用于开发适合产品市场的核心产品。
20% of your time should be going to strategic initiatives that aren't core, but they're strategic to the company, that you know have to do them.
你应该将 20% 的时间用于非核心的战略计划，但它们对公司具有战略意义，你知道必须执行它们。
And then, 10% of your time should be going towards bets.
然后，你应该将 10% 的时间用于投注。
Lenny: That's actually exactly the same heuristic I've always used.
莱尼：这实际上与我一直使用的启发法完全相同。
One question there is, how do you think about maintenance and bugs within that?
有一个问题，您如何看待其中的维护和错误？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
To me, that falls squarely in the 70%.
对我来说，这个比例正好落在 70% 之内。
So yeah, core product, tech debt, sort of the maintenance mode type stuff.
是的，核心产品、技术债务、维护模式类型的东西。
And core product, obviously you're also doing a bunch of new stuff there too.
至于核心产品，显然你也在做一些新的东西。
Eeke de Milliano: But yeah, no more than 70% of your resources should be going there.
Eeke de Milliano：但是，是的，不应该将超过 70% 的资源投入到那里。
Eeke de Milliano: Strategic initiatives that aren't your core, but you just know, based on your strategy, you have to do these things.
Eeke de Milliano：战略举措不是您的核心，但您只是知道，根据您的战略，您必须做这些事情。
Lenny: Got it.
莱尼：明白了。
So the way I break it up is, 20% is where I put bugs and maintenance.
所以我将其分解的方式是，20% 是我放置错误和维护的地方。
And then 10% was big, ambitious bets.
然后 10% 就是一个雄心勃勃的大赌注。
So it was similar ratios, but different things go into the buckets.
所以这是相似的比率，但不同的东西被放入桶中。
Lenny: But, let me ask a similar question.
莱尼：但是，让我问一个类似的问题。
How do you, at Retool, and maybe even at Stripe, think about finding time to do maintenance and bugs?
在 Retool，甚至在 Stripe，您如何考虑抽出时间进行维护和修复错误？
Do you build it into roadmaps?
你会把它纳入路线图吗？
Do you set off time to just fix all the bugs?
您是否会安排时间来修复所有错误？
I know it's probably an evolution, and it goes back and forth.
我知道这可能是一种演变，而且会来回变化。
But, any thoughts?
但是，有什么想法吗？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
This, I think, is really one of the trickiest parts of product management, in my mind.
我认为，在我看来，这确实是产品管理中最棘手的部分之一。
Eeke de Milliano: We don't have a company-wide sort of process on this.
Eeke de Milliano：我们在这方面没有全公司范围的流程。
It's pretty team specific.
这是非常针对团队的。
Some teams do Friday bug bashes.
有些团队会在周五进行 bug 攻击。
Other teams are just, as products roll out, will work on them as they go.
其他团队只是随着产品的推出而进行工作。
Eeke de Milliano: I was actually speaking to a product manager at a different company, who mentioned that they just spent the last 18 months doing just product polish and bugs.
Eeke de Milliano：实际上，我正在与另一家公司的一位产品经理交谈，他提到他们在过去 18 个月里只是进行了产品打磨和 bug 修复。
And I think they landed in a place where they had to do it, because they just had so much debt.
我认为他们已经到了必须这么做的地步，因为他们负债累累。
But luckily, we're not there yet.
但幸运的是，我们还没有到那一步。
Eeke de Milliano: Right now, we let most of the teams just kind of do it themselves and figure out what makes sense for them.
Eeke de Milliano：现在，我们让大多数团队自己做，然后弄清楚什么对他们有意义。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
Awesome.
惊人的。
I wanted to go back to something that I've heard about Retool, that you all are really good at.
我想回到我听说过的关于 Retool 的事情，你们都非常擅长。
Which is PM's being really close to customers.
这就是 PM 非常贴近客户。
And I'm curious what you've done there, or what the team has done there, that it's been really effective?
我很好奇你在那里做了什么，或者团队在那里做了什么，是否真的有效？
Eeke de Milliano: Well, I do think every good product team figures out how to get close to customers.
Eeke de Milliano：嗯，我确实认为每个优秀的产品团队都知道如何接近客户。
But just based off of my observations from Retool, and what I've seen at other companies, there are a couple things that are more pronounced at Retool than I've seen in a lot of other places.
但根据我对 Retool 的观察以及我在其他公司看到的情况，有一些事情在 Retool 比我在其他很多地方看到的更为明显。
Eeke de Milliano: The first is, we have a lot of PMs who used to be in customer-facing roles, at Retool.
Eeke de Milliano：首先，我们有很多产品经理曾经在 Retool 担任面向客户的角色。
I obviously am a big fan of that.
我显然是它的忠实粉丝。
I think there's just nothing like really understanding the value of your product, at the moment where a customer actually has to put money down.
我认为，在客户真正需要付钱的那一刻，没有什么比真正理解你的产品的价值更好的了。
And so, I really like that about PMs, who have had those conversations with customers and they really get it.
所以，我真的很喜欢产品经理，他们与客户进行过这些对话，他们真的明白了。
Eeke de Milliano: Second is, because the retail product is so technical...
Eeke de Milliano：第二是，因为零售产品技术性很强......
And I do think this just depends on what product you have.
我确实认为这取决于你拥有什么产品。
Our PMs are really, very technical.
我们的 PM 真的非常非常技术化。
Everyone has either a CS degree, or has done some sort of engineering in the past.
每个人要么拥有计算机科学学位，要么过去做过某种工程。
Eeke de Milliano: Third is, we use Slack very heavily to talk to our customers and interact with them.
Eeke de Milliano：第三，我们大量使用 Slack 与客户交谈并互动。
So at this point, I think we have hundreds of Slack channels with customers.
所以目前，我认为我们与客户有数百个 Slack 渠道。
Every time we're testing a new product, or a new customer who's somewhat large, comes online.
每次我们测试一个新产品，或者一个规模较大的新客户都会上线。
We will work with them in Slack, to get there off-the-cuff feedback, just back and forth.
我们将在 Slack 中与他们合作，来回获得即兴反馈。
It's really nice.
真的很好。
We just have this direct line to them, which is awesome.
我们可以直接联系他们，这太棒了。
Eeke de Milliano: And then, the fourth thing we do is, we use Retool to build Retool.
Eeke de Milliano：然后，我们做的第四件事是，我们使用 Retool 来构建 Retool。
So our product roadmap lives in a Retool app.
因此，我们的产品路线图位于 Retool 应用程序中。
And the app that we use to have feature flags for particular features, is a Retool app.
我们用来为特定功能设置功能标志的应用程序是 Retool 应用程序。
So PMs are just in the product all day long, every day.
所以产品经理每天都在关注产品。
They're their own customers in a lot of ways, and that really helps as well.
他们在很多方面都是自己的客户，这也确实有帮助。
Lenny: Wow, I didn't know that.
莱尼：哇，我不知道。
That is very cool.
这非常酷。
So you build a task management product using Retool?
那么您使用 Retool 构建了一个任务管理产品？
Eeke de Milliano: Oh, yeah.
Eeke de Milliano：哦，是的。
Well, we built many...
嗯，我们建造了很多...
Basically, all of our internal tooling happens in Retool.
基本上，我们所有的内部工具都发生在 Retool 中。
Like, our PMs, all their team dashboards are in Retool.
就像我们的产品经理一样，他们所有的团队仪表板都在 Retool 中。
All of their task tracking is in Retool.
他们所有的任务跟踪都在 Retool 中。
Submitting linear requests or bug requests happens in Retool, and then goes to Linear.
提交线性请求或错误请求发生在 Retool 中，然后转到 Linear。
So yeah, it's how we run the company.
是的，这就是我们运营公司的方式。
Lenny: You haven't been able to replace Linear yet?
Lenny：你还没能取代Linear吗？
That's cool.
这很酷。
I'm a big fan of Linear.
我是 Linear 的忠实粉丝。
Lenny: Okay, two more questions and then I'll let you go.
莱尼：好的，再问两个问题，然后我就让你走了。
One is around product growth.
一是围绕产品增长。
Which, I don't want to get too into.
对此，我不想太投入。
We've talked about it a bunch on this podcast.
我们已经在这个播客上讨论过很多次了。
Lenny: But, it's interesting that Stripe was very product-led growth.
Lenny：但是，有趣的是，Stripe 的增长非常以产品为主导。
It was just self-serve PMs, engineers, whoever, just started using it.
这只是自助产品经理、工程师等刚刚开始使用它的人。
It grew and became enterprisey down the road.
它不断成长并变得富有进取心。
Lenny: Retool, on the other hand, I think people think it's product-led growth.
莱尼：另一方面，我认为人们认为重组是产品主导的增长。
I imagine it's actually sales-led, mostly.
我想这实际上主要是由销售主导的。
Lenny: And so, I'm just curious what you've learned about the difference between building product and leading product teams within a sales-led org, versus a product-led org.
Lenny：所以，我只是很好奇您对在销售主导的组织内构建产品和领导产品团队与产品主导的组织之间的区别有何了解。
Eeke de Milliano: I have a couple of insights on that.
Eeke de Milliano：对此我有一些见解。
One interesting insight is that, teams that have one always want the other.
一个有趣的见解是，拥有其中一种的团队总是想要另一种。
Eeke de Milliano: Whenever I talk to candidates, I feel like you can always tell what their company has, because they'll be asking a lot of questions about the opposite.
Eeke de Milliano：每当我与候选人交谈时，我觉得你总能说出他们公司有什么，因为他们会问很多相反的问题。
If they're probably a growth company they'll be like, "Well, how are you guys thinking about Enterprise?"
如果他们可能是一家成长型公司，他们会说：“那么，你们对 Enterprise 有何看法？”
Eeke de Milliano: And then, if they are more of a sales-led growth company, they're like, "Well, how are you guys thinking about your self-serve motion, or your product-led growth?"
Eeke de Milliano：然后，如果他们更像是一家以销售为主导的增长公司，他们会说，“好吧，你们如何看待你们的自助行动，或者你们以产品为主导的增长？”
Eeke de Milliano: And my main takeaway, just in...
Eeke de Milliano：我的主要收获是……
And I don't know if I would even use the dichotomy of product-led growth, or sales-led growth, with Retool.
我不知道我是否会在 Retool 中使用产品主导型增长或销售主导型增长的二分法。
I think we do have a lot of product-led growth.
我认为我们确实有很多产品主导的增长。
But we work with a lot of enterprise customers, and a lot of our revenue comes from enterprise customers, and we have a fantastic sales team.
但我们与很多企业客户合作，我们的很多收入来自企业客户，而且我们拥有一支出色的销售团队。
Eeke de Milliano: And I think the main thing is that, you just have to really figure out your interaction mechanisms with sales.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为最重要的是，你只需要真正弄清楚你与销售的互动机制。
And that just has to be so, so tight.
而且必须非常非常严格。
Eeke de Milliano: And it goes in both directions.
Eeke de Milliano：它是双向的。
There's obviously, how you get feedback from them, because they are so often on the front lines talking to customers.
显然，你如何从他们那里获得反馈，因为他们经常在第一线与客户交谈。
Moreso than product managers, even.
甚至比产品经理还要重要。
Eeke de Milliano: But it also goes the other way.
Eeke de Milliano：但反之亦然。
If you are going to ship something, or if you are going to put out a roadmap, like, "How do you make sure that the sales team has everything that they need..." The sales, and in Retool's case, the success team and the support team, "Has everything they need to accurately talk to customers about that?"
如果你要交付一些东西，或者如果你要制定一个路线图，比如，“你如何确保销售团队拥有他们需要的一切......”销售人员，以及在 Retool 的案例中，成功团队和支持团队，“他们拥有与客户准确交谈所需的一切吗？”
Eeke de Milliano: And I've always actually found that really hard, because it's really hard to figure out the right altitude.
Eeke de Milliano：实际上我一直发现这真的很难，因为很难确定正确的高度。
If you're giving a presentation on the roadmap, people are either going to feel like it's too high level.
如果您要就路线图进行演示，人们要么会觉得级别太高。
Or, it's too low level for folks who maybe are new.
或者，对于新人来说，它的水平太低了。
Eeke de Milliano: So this year, we're actually trying something different.
Eeke de Milliano：所以今年，我们实际上正在尝试一些不同的东西。
We are doing a science fair.
我们正在举办一个科学博览会。
Where, each product team has a little booth.
在那里，每个产品团队都有一个小展位。
And they get to stand there, and anyone who has questions about the product can come...
他们站在那里，任何对产品有疑问的人都可以来……
You know, from the go-to-market side, can come and ask questions, and get demos, and go as deep as they need to.
您知道，从进入市场的角度来看，可以过来提出问题，获得演示，并根据需要进行深入研究。
Eeke de Milliano: So, I'll let you know how that goes.
Eeke de Milliano：所以，我会让你知道事情进展如何。
But I'm excited to experiment with it.
但我很高兴能尝试它。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
Are there going to be foam core boards, and will there be ribbons?
是否会有泡沫芯板，是否会有丝带？
Eeke de Milliano: There may be prizes.
Eeke de Milliano：可能会有奖品。
Who knows?
谁知道？
Lenny: Oh my God.
莱尼：天啊。
I can't wait to see a picture of this.
我迫不及待地想看这张照片。
Final topic.
最后的话题。
You have this concept that you call the product talent portfolio.
您有一个称为产品人才组合的概念。
What does that mean, and how have you found that useful in your product leadership life?
这意味着什么？您认为这对您的产品领导生涯有何用处？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
Yeah, it's back to like, all of product management is portfolios and funnels.
是的，一切又回到了原来的样子，所有的产品管理都是投资组合和渠道。
Eeke de Milliano: I think it's really tempting as a manager, to build a team in your image, because you understand their skillsets and you value those skillsets.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为作为一名经理，按照你的形象建立一支团队确实很诱人，因为你了解他们的技能并且重视这些技能。
And you're going to be able to detect and assess those skillsets better.
您将能够更好地发现和评估这些技能。
Eeke de Milliano: But the best product teams, in my mind, have really figured out how to balance the talent portfolio.
Eeke de Milliano：但在我看来，最好的产品团队已经真正找到了如何平衡人才组合的方法。
So instead of having a bunch of PMs who all spike in one particular area, figure out how you can create complimentary skillsets for the whole PM team, so the whole is much stronger.
因此，不要让一群 PM 都在某个特定领域发挥作用，而是要弄清楚如何为整个 PM 团队创建互补的技能组合，这样整体就会变得更强大。
Eeke de Milliano: And one way in which I like to do that is, I really like to balance product teams with homegrown product managers, who really get the product.
Eeke de Milliano：我喜欢这样做的一种方式是，我真的很喜欢平衡产品团队与真正了解产品的本土产品经理。
They've probably been in it.
他们很可能已经参与其中。
They're amazing culture carriers, often.
他们往往是令人惊叹的文化载体。
They really set the tone.
他们确实定下了基调。
But they may not have seen product management at other companies, and they may not have some of the more conventional and traditional product management skillsets.
但他们可能没有在其他公司见过产品管理，并且他们可能不具备一些更常规和传统的产品管理技能。
Eeke de Milliano: So I want to balance that with product managers who've come from other companies, and have done it, and can bring a little bit more of that product manager rigor.
Eeke de Milliano：所以我想在这一点上与来自其他公司、已经做过这件事的产品经理进行平衡，并且可以带来更多一点产品经理的严谨性。
Even though they don't have, in the Retool case, the core Retool product management vibe.
尽管在 Retool 案例中他们没有核心的 Retool 产品管理氛围。
Eeke de Milliano: So, that's one example.
Eeke de Milliano：这就是一个例子。
I think there's others as well.
我认为还有其他人。
Some PMs are just incredible execution machines.
有些产品经理就是令人难以置信的执行机器。
Other PMs are amazing visionaries.
其他项目经理都是令人惊叹的梦想家。
You kind of want a little bit of all of them.
你有点想要所有这些。
Eeke de Milliano: And you want to also balance within all of your different pillars.
Eeke de Milliano：您还希望在所有不同的支柱内保持平衡。
So we have three different sort of product pillars at Retool, and there's leads for all those pillars.
因此，我们在 Retool 拥有三种不同类型的产品支柱，并且所有这些支柱都有潜在客户。
And I always push the leads to hire people who don't look like them, so that we have balance everywhere.
我总是推动领导雇用那些看起来不像他们的人，这样我们就可以在各处保持平衡。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
Do you, actively, as you're hiring, "Hey, well you're strong in these areas.
当你招聘时，你是否会主动说：“嘿，你在这些领域很强大。
Here's the person we need, here.
这是我们需要的人，就在这里。
We want this specific, super strategy minded person." Is that actually how you think about this?
我们想要这个具体的、具有超级战略头脑的人。”您实际上是这么想的吗？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
I do a little personal exercise for myself every six months, where I chart out the team that we have today, and write down all of the strengths that we have, all of the weaknesses that we have, as a team.
我每六个月为自己做一次个人练习，列出我们今天的团队，并写下我们作为一个团队所拥有的所有优势和弱点。
And then I try to hire specifically for those weaknesses.
然后我会尝试专门针对这些弱点进行招聘。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Any last pieces of wisdom or thoughts, before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有最后的智慧或想法吗？
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
We got through everything I was hoping to get through.
我们经历了我希望经历的一切。
Lenny: So with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
莱尼：这样，我们就进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got six questions for you.
我有六个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: What are two or three books that you recommend most, to other people?
莱尼：您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Eeke de Milliano: Bird by Bird: Instructions on Writing and Life by Anne Lamott.
Eeke de Milliano：安妮·拉莫特（Anne Lamott）撰写的《逐只鸟：写作和生活说明》。
It's incredible.
太不可思议了。
So touching.
太感人了。
Really, really great.
真的，真的很棒。
Also, I think product managers should be great writers.
另外，我认为产品经理应该是伟大的作家。
So, I love that.
所以，我喜欢这样。
Eeke de Milliano: And then the other book that I was going to say, but I'm glad you mentioned Claire, is Claire's book, Scaling People, which is coming out.
Eeke de Milliano：然后我要说的另一本书是克莱尔的书《Scaling People》，即将出版，但我很高兴你提到了克莱尔。
I had a very small hand in ghost writing for her a little bit, in the first draft.
在初稿中，我为她代笔了一点点。
So I use a lot of the early chapters from that book still, in management.
因此，在管理方面，我仍然使用该书的许多早期章节。
And I still recommend the tactics in there, so I'm excited for her to get it out.
我仍然推荐其中的策略，所以我很高兴她能把它说出来。
Lenny: Wow.
莱尼：哇。
I've been hearing about ghost writing as a career recently, and it feels like it could be an option for you down the road.
我最近听说代笔写作是一种职业，感觉这可能是你未来的一个选择。
Lenny: I'm excited to read the book.
莱尼：我很高兴读这本书。
I haven't gotten a copy yet.
我还没有拿到副本。
I think you could pre-order it now, and we'll link to it in the show notes.
我想你现在就可以预订了，我们会在演出笔记中链接到它。
Lenny: What's a favorite other podcast that you like to listen to, other than maybe the one you're on right now?
Lenny：除了你现在正在收听的播客之外，你最喜欢听的其他播客是什么？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah, this one's great.
Eeke de Milliano：是的，这个很棒。
I can't choose between these two, though.
但我无法在这两者之间做出选择。
One is Lex Fridman.
其中之一是莱克斯·弗里德曼。
And then the other is EconTalk by Russ Roberts.
另一个是 Russ Roberts 的 EconTalk。
I really like that both of them are...
我真的很喜欢他们俩...
Their agenda is curiosity, which I love.
他们的议程是好奇心，这是我喜欢的。
Lenny: Totally resonate there.
莱尼：在那里完全引起共鸣。
What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've enjoyed?
您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？
Eeke de Milliano: Is it too basic to say White Lotus?
Eeke de Milliano：说“白莲花”是不是太基础了？
Lenny: Cool.
莱尼：酷。
That's the most mentioned one, which says a lot, right?
这是被提及最多的一个，说明了很多，对吧？
That just says how good that is, because I love it too.
这只能说明那有多好，因为我也喜欢它。
But, that works.
但是，那是有效的。
Season one or season two?
第一季还是第二季？
Lenny: Yeah, same.
莱尼：是的，一样。
I'm excited for season three.
我对第三季感到很兴奋。
No spoilers.
没有剧透。
Favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates?
您最喜欢问应聘者的面试问题？
Eeke de Milliano: To what do you attribute your success?
Eeke de Milliano：您将自己的成功归功于什么？
And you can't say luck.
而且你不能说运气。
Lenny: Interesting.
莱尼：有趣。
Because most people look for, do they believe it's luck, versus their innate skill?
因为大多数人都在寻找，他们相信这是运气，还是他们与生俱来的技能？
So you don't even allow them to say luck?
所以你连他们说运气都不允许？
Interesting.
有趣的。
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
Because I think humble people will always say luck in some way.
因为我认为谦虚的人总是会以某种方式说运气。
And I always kind of wanted to know, "How self aware are you, and how curious are you?"
我总是想知道，“你的自我意识有多强，你的好奇心有多强？”
Eeke de Milliano: And I think people who have really gone back and reflected on why are they where they are today, really says a lot about how they think about the world.
Eeke de Milliano：我认为那些真正回过头来反思为什么他们会走到今天的人，确实说了很多他们对世界的看法。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
What are some SaaS tools that you love, or use often, at your current company, or anywhere else?
您在当前公司或其他地方喜欢或经常使用哪些 SaaS 工具？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
Well, first and foremost, it's Retool.
嗯，首先也是最重要的，它是 Retool。
And then, the other SaaS tools that we use a lot, Slack, Gong, Linear and FullStory.
然后是我们经常使用的其他 SaaS 工具，Slack、Gong、Linear 和 FullStory。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Favorite new product that you found, maybe in life, maybe at work?
您发现的最喜欢的新产品，也许是在生活中，也许是在工作中？
Eeke de Milliano: Yeah.
埃克·德·米利亚诺：是的。
Have you heard of Rewind?
你听说过倒带吗？
Lenny: Yes, I have it running right now.
莱尼：是的，我现在正在运行它。
Eeke de Milliano: Nice.
Eeke de Milliano： 很好。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I think it's really incredible what they've done.
我的意思是，我认为他们所做的事情真的令人难以置信。
Lenny: Maybe describe it briefly, just so folks know what that is.
莱尼：也许可以简单描述一下，以便人们知道那是什么。
Eeke de Milliano: It basically records everything that you're doing on your computer and then makes it really easy for you to search it.
Eeke de Milliano：它基本上记录了您在计算机上所做的所有事情，然后使您可以轻松搜索。
Which, it's just incredible.
这真是令人难以置信。
I don't know if you work this way, Lenny.
我不知道你是否这样工作，莱尼。
But I feel like nowadays, I don't really go to tabs anymore.
但我觉得现在我真的不再去标签了。
I kind of directly search for the thing that I'm searching for.
我有点直接搜索我正在搜索的东西。
And I think Rewind just fits that user behavior so, so well.
我认为 Rewind 非常非常适合用户行为。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Eeke, this was so much fun.
哎呀，这真是太有趣了。
We got through everything I was hoping for, and more.
我们实现了我所希望的一切，甚至更多。
Lenny: Two final questions.
莱尼：最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more, see what you're up to?
如果人们想联系您、了解更多信息、了解您的动态，可以在哪里找到您？
And, how can listeners be useful to you?
而且，听众如何对你有用？
Eeke de Milliano: Definitely find me online on Twitter.
Eeke de Milliano：绝对可以在 Twitter 上找到我。
It's @EekeDM.
这是@EekeDM。
And, how can they help us?
而且，他们可以如何帮助我们？
Try out the Retool product and give us some feedback.
试用 Retool 产品并向我们提供一些反馈。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Thank you again, for being here.
再次感谢您来到这里。
Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Lenny: Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
莱尼：另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all the past episodes or learn more about the show, at LennysPodcast.com.
您可以在 LennysPodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。