Crafting a compelling product vision | Ebi Atawodi (YouTube, Netflix, Uber)

Ebi Atawodi: I do not believe in being liked.

Ebi Atawodi：我不相信被人喜欢。

I believe in being loved, right?

我相信被爱，对吗？

And that's a very, very different thing.

这是非常非常不同的事情。

When I said this once in a meeting, people were like...

当我在一次会议上说过这句话时，人们就像……

Yes, right?

是的，对吗？

But it took me a while in reading a lot of books to come to a definition of love and love is the choice to extend yourself for the spiritual growth of oneself or another, right?

但我花了一段时间阅读了很多书籍才得出爱的定义，爱是为了自己或他人的精神成长而扩展自己的选择，对吗？

It's very big, lofty and whatever, but you're literally extending yourself for somebody else or yourself, self-love, right?

它非常大、崇高等等，但你实际上是在为别人或你自己延伸自己，自爱，对吧？

And that's love.

这就是爱。

And when you are extending yourself, you're not nice.

当你扩展自己时，你就不好了。

It's not always nice or like, it sometimes is having hard conversations.

并不总是友好或喜欢，有时会进行艰难的对话。

It's knowing that, oh, there's a human, they know I care about them.

它知道，哦，有一个人，他们知道我关心他们。

So when the feedback is coming like raw, they know that it's in their best interest because I've shown enough times that I genuinely care about the person behind the role.

因此，当收到原始反馈时，他们知道这符合他们的最大利益，因为我已经多次表明我真正关心这个角色背后的人。

Lenny: Today my guest is Ebi Atawodi.

莱尼：今天我的客人是埃比·阿塔沃迪。

AB is director of product management at YouTube overseeing the creator experience.

AB 是 YouTube 的产品管理总监，负责监督创作者体验。

Previously, she was director of product management at Netflix and head of product for Uber Wallet, checkout, pay, and financial Products at Uber.

此前，她曾担任 Netflix 的产品管理总监以及 Uber 的 Uber 钱包、结账、支付和金融产品产品主管。

Ebi shares the most tactical advice I've ever heard on how to develop a vision for your product, along with a bunch of very concrete ways to communicate your vision to your teammates and to executives.

Ebi 分享了我听过的关于如何为你的产品制定愿景的最具战术性的建议，以及一系列向你的队友和高管传达你的愿景的非常具体的方法。

We also dig into the craft of product management and how to get better at it.

我们还深入研究产品管理的技巧以及如何做得更好。

Along with what Ebi's learned about creating a strong product culture on your team and across the company.

以及 Ebi 在您的团队和整个公司中创建强大的产品文化的经验。

Ebi is such a wonderful human and clearly an amazing product leader, and I'm excited for you to get to learn from her.

Ebi 是一个非常出色的人，显然也是一位出色的产品领导者，我很高兴您能向她学习。

With that, I bring you Ebi Atawodi after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了 Ebi Atawodi。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by sidebar.

Lenny：这一集是通过侧边栏为您带来的。

Are you looking to land your next big career move or start your own thing?

您是否正在寻找下一个重大职业变动或开始自己的事业？

One of the most effective ways to create a big leap in your career and something that worked really well for me a few years ago is to create a personal board of directors, a trusted peer group where you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just kind of gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

实现职业生涯重大飞跃的最有效方法之一是创建一个个人董事会，这是一个值得信赖的同行小组，几年前对我来说非常有效，您可以在其中讨论您遇到的挑战，获得职业建议，并直观地检查您对工作、职业和生活的看法。

This has been a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group.

这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变，但建立这个值得信赖的团队很困难。

With sidebar, senior leaders are matched with highly vetted, private, supportive peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives, and raw feedback.

通过侧边栏，高级领导者可以与经过严格审查的、私密的、支持性的同行群体相匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Everyone has their own zone of genius, so together we're better prepared to navigate professional pitfalls leading to more responsibility, faster promotions, and bigger impact.

每个人都有自己的天才区，因此我们可以齐心协力，更好地应对职业陷阱，从而承担更多的责任、更快的晋升和更大的影响力。

Guided by world-class programming and facilitation Sidebar enables you to get focused tactical feedback at every step of your journey.

在世界一流的编程和便利性的指导下，侧栏使您能够在旅程的每一步获得集中的战术反馈。

If you're a listener of this podcast, you're likely already driven and committed to growth.

如果您是此播客的听众，您可能已经有动力并致力于成长。

A Sidebar personal board of directors is the missing piece to catalyze that journey.

侧栏个人董事会是催化这一旅程所缺失的部分。

Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today, jump the growing wait list of thousands of leaders from top tech companies by visiting sidebar.com/lenny to learn more.

今天您就可以在 Sidebar 与您的员工见面，为什么要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？访问 sidebar.com/lenny 了解更多信息，从而跳过由顶级科技公司的数千名领导者组成的不断增长的候补名单。

That's sidebar.com/lenny.

这是 sidebar.com/lenny。

Lenny: You fell in love with building products for a reason, but sometimes the day-to-day reality is a little different than you imagined.

Lenny：你爱上构建产品是有原因的，但有时日常现实与你想象的有点不同。

Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers and crafting a strategy, you're drowning in spreadsheets and roadmap updates, and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.

您没有梦想出伟大的想法，与客户交谈并制定策略，而是淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，并且您的时间基本上都花在救火上。

A better way is possible.

更好的方法是可能的。

Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and road mapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.

隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的全新优先级划分和路线图绘制工具。

With Jira product Discovery, you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place and prioritize confidently.

借助 Jira 产品发现，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一处，并自信地确定优先顺序。

Finally, replacing those endless spreadsheets, create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds.

最后，取代那些无休无止的电子表格，在几秒钟内创建并与任何利益相关者共享自定义产品路线图。

And it's all built on Jira where your engineering team's already working.

这一切都建立在 Jira 上，您的工程团队已经在 J​​ira 上工作。

So true collaboration is finally possible.

因此，真正的合作终于成为可能。

Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers, sales, support, leadership, even Greg from finance.

伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，不仅仅是工程师、销售、支持、领导层，甚至是来自财务部门的格雷格。

Anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free, no catch.

您想要的任何人都可以在 Jira Product Discovery 中免费贡献想法、反馈和见解，没有任何限制。

And it's only $10 a month for you.

而且每月只需 10 美元。

Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never ending alignment efforts.

告别电子表格和无休止的对齐工作。

The old way of doing product management is over.

旧的产品管理方式已经结束。

Rediscover what's possible with Jira Product Discovery.

重新发现 Jira Product Discovery 的可能性。

Try it for free at atlassian.com/lenny.

请访问 atlassian.com/lenny 免费试用。

That's atlassian.com/lenny.

这是 atlassian.com/lenny。

Ebi, thank you so much for being here.

Ebi，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Lenny: It's my pleasure.

莱尼：这是我的荣幸。

First, I just want to give a big thank you to Andre Albuquerque, who is the founder of One Month PM, who actually posted on LinkedIn about how much of a fan of yours he is and that I need to have you on this podcast.

首先，我想向 Andre Albuquerque 表示衷心的感谢，他是 One Month PM 的创始人，他在 LinkedIn 上发帖表示他是你的粉丝，我需要你加入这个播客。

And so here we are.

我们就到这里了。

I want to start by talking about vision.

我想首先谈谈愿景。

Every product manager I've ever worked with and managed vision has always been this development area for every single one.

与我共事过并管理愿景的每一位产品经理始终是每个人的发展领域。

It's always this like, "You need to get better at crafting a vision, telling your story." It's also this very powerful tool.

总是这样的，“你需要更好地制定愿景，讲述你的故事。”这也是一个非常强大的工具。

The product managers have to align teams to be more successful in the products they're building.

产品经理必须协调团队，以便在他们正在构建的产品中取得更大的成功。

And you have a really neat way of thinking about a framework for developing a vision and then telling the story.

你有一种非常巧妙的方式来思考一个框架来制定愿景，然后讲述故事。

What are elements of a good vision for a product or even a company?

产品甚至公司的良好愿景的要素是什么？

Ebi Atawodi: I think the first piece is that you absolutely need to have one, to start by saying that.

Ebi Atawodi：我认为第一件事是你绝对需要有一个，首先要说的是。

Regardless of what level you are in the company.

不管你在公司处于什么级别。

So people say, "Oh, I'm just a junior PM." Whatever level, there is some micro macro vision that you need to have.

所以人们会说：“哦，我只是一名初级总理。”无论级别如何，您都需要具备一些微观宏观视野。

Because essentially if you got on a plane and the pilot was like, "I don't really know where we're going, but I'm a really good pilot.

因为本质上，如果你上了飞机，飞行员会说，“我真的不知道我们要去哪里，但我是一个非常好的飞行员。

The company needs to fly 400 flights this year.

该公司今年需要执飞400个航班。

So I'm trying to make that happen, but trust me, we'll get there.

所以我正在努力实现这一目标，但相信我，我们会实现的。

There might be turbulence, I'm not sure." You probably would be thinking twice about staying on that flight, right?

可能会有动荡，我不确定。”您可能会再三考虑是否要继续乘坐该航班，对吧？

What happens is you get on there, it's like, "Our destination is Miami." Maybe I'm dreaming of beaches, "And it's going to be 24 degrees when we get there." And he always paints or she paints this image of the destination.

发生的事情是，当你到达那里时，就像“我们的目的地是迈阿密”。也许我梦想着海滩，“当我们到达那里时，气温将是 24 度。”他或她总是画出目的地的形象。

Ebi Atawodi: And that's the vision not to be confused with the mission, which is we want to fly people where they're going safe.

Ebi Atawodi：这个愿景不要与我们的使命相混淆，我们希望将人们带到安全的地方。

That's not...

那不是...

It's like a picture.

就像一幅画。

So that's the start.

这就是开始。

I want to just delineate between vision and everything else that people think vision is.

我想简单地界定一下愿景和人们所认为的愿景的其他一切。

So really I think there are a couple of key elements.

所以我真的认为有几个关键要素。

The first one is it needs to be lofty.

第一个是它需要崇高。

So it needs to be something that feels...

所以它必须是一种感觉...

It almost scares you in an exciting way, right?

它几乎以一种令人兴奋的方式吓到你，对吧？

Like, oh, my God, this is something I can get up every morning.

就像，天哪，这是我每天早上都能起床的事情。

And if we did that, goddamn.

如果我们这么做了，该死的。

But at the same time, it needs to be realistic and attainable, so it cannot feel so pie in the sky that it feels so out of reach, right?

但同时，它又必须是现实的、可实现的，所以不能感觉天上掉馅饼，遥不可及，对吧？

And of course, there are leaders and people who have really, really big visions and they see beyond the rest of us, but that's not most people.

当然，有些领导者和人们有着非常非常远大的愿景，他们的眼光超越了我们其他人，但大多数人并不是这样。

Most people, it needs to feel within reach.

对于大多数人来说，它需要感觉触手可及。

Ebi Atawodi: And then I think the key thing is it needs to kind of be in a vacuum from the limitations of today because the whole point of going to the future and saying, time traveled five years out is to say, "Okay, I've come back to tell you what we need to fix in order to get there.

Ebi Atawodi：然后我认为关键是它需要摆脱今天的限制，因为走向未来并说时间旅行五年后的全部意义在于说，“好吧，我回来告诉你我们需要解决什么才能到达那里。

Or I've come back to tell you what we need to put in place now so that we will get there, right?" And so you have this kind of three components and if those come together and they are grounded of course, in a problem that people are excited about, you've got your vision.

或者我回来是为了告诉你我们现在需要采取什么措施才能实现目标，对吗？”所以你有这样的三个组成部分，如果它们结合在一起并且它们当然扎根于人们感兴趣的问题，那么你就得到了你的愿景。

And how that vision manifests really depends on what you want to do.

这个愿景如何体现实际上取决于你想做什么。

There're simple ones you can do, they're big ones you can do.

您可以做一些简单的事情，也可以做一些大的事情。

But those are the core pieces in my mind.

但这些是我心中的核心部分。

Lenny: Can you just summarize them again and are some examples you can share if here's a really good vision that it hits on these, and then if you have another example of a bad vision, that would be really helpful?

莱尼：你能再总结一下吗？如果这是一个非常好的愿景，你可以分享一些例子，然后如果你有另一个糟糕的愿景的例子，那会很有帮助吗？

Ebi Atawodi: So four things.

Ebi Atawodi：有四件事。

So it has to be lofty, it has to be realistic, it has to be devoid of any tech or limitations of today, and it has to be grounded in a very clear and potent problem.

所以它必须是崇高的，它必须是现实的，它必须没有任何技术或当今的限制，它必须基于一个非常明确和有效的问题。

User problem.

用户问题。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And then, yeah, are there any examples either from places you've worked or visions?

然后，是的，有没有来自你工作过的地方或愿景的例子？

Ebi Atawodi: Absolutely.

艾比·阿塔沃迪：当然。

What I particularly love, so a lot of my product thinking and my product chops and craft, I really owe to Uber.

我特别喜欢的东西，所以我的很多产品思考、产品技巧和工艺，我真的要归功于 Uber。

So when I think about things, there's something really magical there.

所以当我思考事情时，那里有一些非常神奇的东西。

And one of our values at the time was making magic.

当时我们的价值观之一就是创造魔法。

So I met the word magic all the time, but so mission, push a button, get a ride, transportation as reliable as running water.

所以我一直遇到“魔法”这个词，但它就是使命，按下按钮，搭车，交通就像流水一样可靠。

I used to be in Nigeria, that tagline did not scale because water was not that reliable in Nigeria.

我以前在尼日利亚，那句标语没有规模化，因为尼日利亚的水不太可靠。

So they went for a slightly more inclusive version, which is reliable transport, sanitation everywhere and for everyone, right?

所以他们选择了一个稍微更具包容性的版本，即可靠的交通和卫生设施，无处不在，适合每个人，对吗？

So that's the mission.

这就是使命。

That doesn't really tell me what the image looks like when I get there, but that's like when I wake up every day, I'm like, "Why do I work in this company?" It's that make transportation reliable everywhere for everyone.

这并不能真正告诉我，当我到达那里时，图像是什么样子的，但是就像当我每天醒来时，我会想，“我为什么在这家公司工作？”它使每个人在任何地方的交通都变得可靠。

Ebi Atawodi: And I'll talk maybe later about how that came to...

Ebi Atawodi：也许稍后我会谈论这是如何发生的......

We were able to use that to actually challenge the then CEO Travis Kalanick.

我们能够用它来真正挑战当时的首席执行官特拉维斯·卡兰尼克。

The vision was a world where you get to this continuous trip so that you do not need parking.

我们的愿景是建立一个让您无需停车即可连续旅行的世界。

Because cities, 25% of the average city is parking spaces.

因为城市，平均城市25%是停车位。

You're in San Francisco, you'll see buildings, just floors just for parking, right?

你在旧金山，你会看到建筑物，只有停车位的楼层，对吗？

You'll have basements just for parking.

你会有地下室，仅供停车之用。

In a world where we have housing problems, we have ridiculous prices for rents.

在一个存在住房问题的世界里，我们的租金价格也高得离谱。

Just imagine if you could free up all of those spaces for all kinds of things, right?

试想一下，如果您可以腾出所有这些空间来放置各种东西，对吗？

Homes, restaurants, you name it.

住宅、餐馆，凡是你能想到的。

Parties, warehouse parties especially, they have the best.

派对，尤其是仓库派对，他们有最好的。

That was the vision.

这就是愿景。

You could kind of see it, right?

你应该能看到吧？

You're like, "Oh, I could see a world." I mean, I live in Amsterdam, I have a bicycle, I can see it every other day.

你会说，“哦，我可以看到一个世界。”我的意思是，我住在阿姆斯特丹，我有一辆自行车，我每隔一天就能看到它。

They're getting rid of cars and actually converting the parking lots on the street into communal gardens, right?

他们正在淘汰汽车，实际上将街上的停车场改造成公共花园，对吧？

Ebi Atawodi: So it's not crazy.

Ebi Atawodi：所以这并不疯狂。

It's attainable.

这是可以实现的。

But now doing that for the whole world, what does that look like?

但现在为全世界做这件事，那会是什么样子呢？

And that's how things like Uber Pool came in where in a world where the average car has 1.5 people in it, we can maximize that and then we can get this connected trip where the car is just moving and then maybe the car is autonomous, so you don't actually have to drive that car, and so it just doesn't need to stop.

这就是像 Uber Pool 这样的东西出现的原因，在一个平均汽车载有 1.5 人的世界中，我们可以最大限度地利用这一点，然后我们可以实现这种互联的旅行，其中汽车只是移动，然后汽车可能是自动驾驶的，所以你实际上不必驾驶那辆车，所以它不需要停下来。

I guess, it needs to charge at some point.

我想，它需要在某个时候充电。

But so that's it.

但就是这样。

I think that's a really good vision.

我认为这是一个非常好的愿景。

I think one that's lofty and I dance between whether it's attainable or not, is Elon Musk saying, "We're going to get to Mars." He believes it.

我认为埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）说的一句话是崇高的，无论是否可以实现，我都会犹豫不决，“我们要去火星。”他相信。

He believes it so much that sometimes I'm like, "I guess, we're going to Mars." But then there was the other one of, oh, we want a car that's electric and we want that car to be beautiful so that we will get to a car that's accessible to everyone.

他非常相信这一点，有时我会想，“我想，我们要去火星。”但还有另一个，哦，我们想要一辆电动汽车，我们希望那辆车很漂亮，这样我们就能得到一辆每个人都可以使用的汽车。

And that's kind of followed through.

这就是后续的情况。

So yeah, I mean, the beautiful things about visions is that it helps you decide it.

所以，是的，我的意思是，愿景的美妙之处在于它可以帮助你做出决定。

Is that a work...

那是作品吗...

Do I care about this problem?

我关心这个问题吗？

Is it something I want to do?

这是我想做的事吗？

And then you can take it or leave it.

然后你可以接受或离开它。

Lenny: I think with the lofty slash attainable balance, I think that Elon Musk is an interesting example where it may feel impossible, but as an inspirational leader, you almost convince people that it is possible through your confidence and your being in the details, helping people see maybe there's a path.

莱尼：我认为，通过大幅削减可实现的平衡，我认为埃隆·马斯克是一个有趣的例子，它可能让人感觉不可能，但作为一位鼓舞人心的领导者，你几乎让人们相信，通过你的自信和对细节的关注，这是可能的，帮助人们看到也许有一条路。

So I think there's an interesting opportunity there to be a leader.

所以我认为成为领导者有一个有趣的机会。

Lenny: You've mentioned this kind of difference between mission and vision a couple of times.

莱尼：您多次提到使命和愿景之间的这种差异。

It'd be cool maybe just to...

也许只是为了...会很酷

Can you summarize that again, just like what is the difference between vision and mission in your mind?

您能否再总结一下，就像您心目中的愿景和使命有什么区别一样？

Ebi Atawodi: I'll use it an analogy.

Ebi Atawodi：我会用它来比喻。

Let's say we want to go hike.

假设我们想去徒步旅行。

We want to go up to Mount Everest.

我们想去珠穆朗玛峰。

The vision would be once we're up there, me describing the picture of what we're going to see, we're going to get there, we're going to look around, we'll be the Himalayas, be beautiful, we'll be above the clouds, probably out of breath.

愿景是一旦我们到达那里，我会描述我们将要看到的景象，我们将到达那里，我们将环顾四周，我们将成为喜马拉雅山，变得美丽，我们将在云层之上，可能会喘不过气来。

That's the vision.

这就是愿景。

It's like I fast-forward into the future, I hold time and I'm in that place and I'm describing the picture, right?

就好像我快进到未来，我掌握了时间，我就在那个地方，我正在描述那幅画，对吗？

And so a city without parking, you can see that, right?

所以一个没有停车位的城市，你可以看到这一点，对吧？

And we've all watched sci-fi movies.

我们都看过科幻电影。

You can see Mars, Red Planet.

你可以看到火星，红色星球。

So that's the vision and then the mission is the purpose of why we're doing that.

这就是愿景，而使命就是我们这样做的目的。

We're going to do this to demonstrate that we're able to do it and making sure that we both get there together.

我们这样做是为了证明我们有能力做到这一点，并确保我们能够共同实现这一目标。

It's a very simplistic one, but I'm just giving...

这是一个非常简单的问题，但我只是给出......

That's the purpose.

这就是目的。

Ebi Atawodi: We're doing it because we want to prove to ourselves that we can summit Mount Everest, which I will not be doing anytime soon, and we're doing it to prove to ourselves something that we can do it and we're capable, and we will do that by making sure that we look out for each other.

Ebi Atawodi：我们这样做是因为我们想向自己证明我们可以登上珠穆朗玛峰，但我不会很快做到这一点，我们这样做是为了向自己证明我们可以做到并且我们有能力，并且我们将通过确保我们互相照顾来做到这一点。

Because you can get to Mount Everest and not have all the people with you, right?

因为你可以到达珠穆朗玛峰而不需要所有的人都和你一起，对吗？

That's a team bonding challenge that I've done once upon a time.

这是我以前做过的团队凝聚力挑战。

It's actually very, very, very intricate and interesting.

它实际上非常、非常、非常复杂且有趣。

So that's your vision.

这就是你的愿景。

And then the mission is the purpose and some set of guiding principles as to what will allow you to achieve that vision.

然后使命就是目的和一些指导原则，以帮助您实现这一愿景。

Lenny: That's really handy.

莱尼：这真的很方便。

So simple way to think about...

如此简单的思考方式...

I'm just taking notes as you're talking and I totally agree with this.

我只是在你说话的时候做笔记，我完全同意这一点。

The mission is essentially the why and why you exist and the purpose for your team slash company and the vision...

使命本质上是你存在的原因和原因以及你的团队斜线公司的目的和愿景......

The word vision almost tells you what it is.

愿景这个词几乎已经告诉你它是什么了。

It's what it looks like when you get there.

这就是你到达那里时的样子。

Awesome.

惊人的。

So that's exactly how I think about it actually.

这就是我的真实想法。

I have this post that I'll link to in the show notes that talks through mission and vision strategy.

我将在节目笔记中链接到这篇文章，其中讨论了使命和愿景策略。

I'll give a bunch more examples real quick.

我会很快给出更多例子。

Just again, I pulled it up as you're chatting just for folks to have more examples.

再说一遍，当你在聊天时我把它拉出来只是为了让人们有更多的例子。

So a couple of mission examples real quick.

所以很快就会有几个任务示例。

Lenny: At Ted, their mission is to spread ideas.

莱尼：在泰德，他们的使命是传播思想。

They're around to spread ideas.

他们四处传播思想。

Stripe's mission increased the GDP of the internet.

Stripe 的使命是增加互联网的 GDP。

IKEA's mission created better everyday life for the many people.

宜家的使命是为许多人创造更美好的日常生活。

So I think that's exactly what you're talking about.

所以我认为这正是你所说的。

They're like the purpose, why do we exist?

它们就像我们存在的目的一样？

And then visions.

然后是异象。

So Microsoft's vision, a computer on every desk and in every home.

因此，微软的愿景是：每张桌子、每个家庭都有一台电脑。

Very much like what does it look like when we've achieved it?

很像我们实现目标后的样子？

Tesla create the most compelling car company of the 21st century.

特斯拉创建了 21 世纪最引人注目的汽车公司。

It's kind of in between, but I think that's close.

介于两者之间，但我认为已经很接近了。

Lyft, a world where cities feel small again, where transportation and tech bring people together instead of a apart.

Lyft，一个城市再次让人感觉很小的世界，交通和科技将人们聚集在一起，而不是分离。

How sweet.

多么甜蜜啊。

Ebi Atawodi: So that's one where it's very warm and fuzzy and I love it.

Ebi Atawodi：所以这是一个非常温暖和模糊的地方，我喜欢它。

Maybe this is my Uber, but you can see a computer on every desk.

也许这是我的优步，但你可以看到每张桌子上都有一台电脑。

That's what I mean by it has to be realistic.

这就是我所说的必须是现实的。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Awesome.

惊人的。

So what is a vision concretely as a document in your experience?

那么，根据您的经验，具体的愿景文件是什么呢？

So we've talked about vision so far, mostly as this tagline, like a sentence, is that usually all you need when you're thinking about a vision, your experience?

到目前为止，我们已经讨论了愿景，主要是这个口号，就像一个句子，当你思考愿景、你的经历时，这通常是你所需要的一切吗？

Do you often suggest going further into dock-deck, storyboards along those lines?

您是否经常建议沿着这些思路进一步研究码头甲板、故事板？

Ebi Atawodi: So I have a very simplistic framework.

Ebi Atawodi：所以我有一个非常简单的框架。

I actually don't know who put it together at Uber, but I see as well, one of the most powerful skills of a product manager is storytelling, right?

我实际上不知道是谁在 Uber 提出的，但我也看到，产品经理最强大的技能之一就是讲故事，对吧？

Because you look at generation after generation after generation, what people pass on as stories, they're not numbers, they're not stats, it's stories.

因为你看着一代又一代人，人们以故事的形式传递的东西，它们不是数字，不是统计数据，而是故事。

And actually when you blend stories with numbers, so if you do numbers alone or numbers with stories or stories alone, the gap is so wide in stories alone.

实际上，当你将故事与数字混合在一起时，如果你单独做数字，或者数字与故事或单独的故事，那么单独的故事中的差距是如此之大。

So it's not metrics blended with stories.

所以它不是与故事混合的指标。

It's a story, just a pure story.

这是一个故事，一个纯粹的故事。

This doesn't mean don't be analytical.

这并不意味着不要进行分析。

So one of the very simplistic tools that I've used, and I use it as well right now at Google, when my team ships the product, I'll put the vision in there to remind what the vision was that they set out to do, right?

因此，我使用过的非常简单的工具之一，我现在在谷歌也使用它，当我的团队交付产品时，我会将愿景放在那里，以提醒他们打算做什么，对吧？

Ebi Atawodi: And it's once upon a time, write the problem and then write something and then write something, and then one day something happened.

Ebi Atawodi：从前，写下问题，然后写一些东西，然后写一些东西，然后有一天发生了一些事情。

And as a result, the state of the world where we're trying to be.

结果就是我们想要成为的世界状况。

It's very simplistic, but in its simplicity of the magic because you are like, "I'm a PM, I'm trying to solve problems." Once upon a time, where were we?

它非常简单，但在其简单的魔力中，因为你会说，“我是一名产品经理，我正在努力解决问题。”曾几何时，我们在哪里？

Right?

正确的？

It's like what is the thing that we're trying to solve?

就像我们要解决的问题是什么？

So I'll give you a simplistic one.

那么我给你一个简单的。

I know the team didn't do this for shorts, but the shorts team at YouTube.

我知道团队这样做并不是为了短片，而是 YouTube 的短片团队。

Once upon a time, YouTube was fun and people had cat videos and zoo and all of that.

曾几何时，YouTube 很有趣，人们有猫视频和动物园等等。

And then one day it became this really polished thing and a lot of people were producing really polished, very one hour content.

然后有一天，它变成了一件非常精致的事情，很多人都在制作非常精致的、非常一小时的内容。

And then because of that, a lot of people felt maybe I couldn't create because I can't tell a one-hour story.

正因为如此，很多人觉得我可能无法创作，因为我无法讲述一小时的故事。

Ebi Atawodi: And because of that, people decided, okay, I'm just going to watch and consume and not create.

Ebi Atawodi：正因为如此，人们决定，好吧，我只会观看和消费，而不是创造。

And then one day, we launch shorts, 60 seconds, and because of that, anyone can now express themselves again and bring back the joy and magic of YouTube.

然后有一天，我们推出了 60 秒短片，正因为如此，任何人现在都可以再次表达自己，并带回 YouTube 的欢乐和魔力。

So it's very simplistic.

所以这非常简单。

I'm just using that into the teams who built this.

我只是将其用于构建此的团队。

I know this is not your vision, I'm just giving it a story.

我知道这不是你的愿景，我只是给它一个故事。

But I remember this when we did it for Uber as well, we were talking about the loyalty for drivers and some would have this framework and I thought, holy cow, this is it.

但我记得当我们为 Uber 做这件事时，我们正在谈论司机的忠诚度，有些人会有这个框架，我想，天哪，就是这样。

So that's a very simplistic version.

所以这是一个非常简单的版本。

You can go one step up.

你可以再上一层楼。

The one I like to do, and I know that Amazon does this a lot, but as I write...

这是我喜欢做的，而且我知道亚马逊经常这样做，但正如我所写的……

I write an article.

我写一篇文章。

I'll write in the headline because if the vision has come to pass, right?

我会写在标题中，因为如果愿景已经实现，对吗？

And it's gone well, someone's going to be writing hopefully some sexy headline about the thing that you've built.

一切进展顺利，希望有人会写一些关于你所构建的东西的性感标题。

Ebi Atawodi: So I go to the future and I write the headline I would see.

Ebi Atawodi：所以我去了未来，写下了我会看到的标题。

And I write the subtitle, just that, and I'll actually use the...

我写了副标题，就这样，我实际上会使用......

I'll it into the page of TechCrunch or or something just so it looks realistic.

我会把它放到 TechCrunch 或其他网站的页面上，这样看起来就更真实了。

And I'll put that in the deck just to kind of like, this is where we want to be.

我会把它放在甲板上只是为了有点像，这就是我们想要的地方。

And then if I really want to go deep, then I'll write the rest of the article, right?

然后，如果我真的想深入探讨，那么我会写文章的其余部分，对吧？

So that's a very simplistic one.

这是一个非常简单的问题。

Let's stick another version.

让我们粘另一个版本。

One that I used, and I show that in a lot of my talks is, I was trying to tell a story when I was at Uber and I was like, "Okay, words are amazing, but a picture tells a thousand words, right?" So I wrote out the thing and I worked with my design partner at the time, and he literally took out a pencil and drew the future.

我在很多演讲中都使用过一个，我在 Uber 工作时试图讲一个故事，我当时想，“好吧，文字很棒，但一张图片可以讲述一千个单词，对吗？”所以我写下了这个东西，然后我和当时的设计伙伴一起工作，他真的拿出一支铅笔画出了未来。

Ebi Atawodi: And the vision I was trying to show was this world where you could walk into any store, any Bodega, mom-and-pop shop, wherever you are in the world, and actually top up your Uber balance, right?

Ebi Atawodi：我想要展示的愿景是，你可以走进任何一家商店、任何一家酒窖、夫妻店，无论你身在世界何处，都能真正为你的 Uber 余额充值，对吗？

So even if you don't have a credit card and you have cash, you can also experience this cashless, seamless Uber experience and that can scale all over the world.

因此，即使您没有信用卡但有现金，您也可以体验这种无现金、无缝的 Uber 体验，并且可以扩展到世界各地。

And he literally drew a Bodega or does it look like a kiosk, like the ones in Nigeria in my country, you have like a .

他确实画了一个酒窖，或者它看起来像一个亭子，就像我国家尼日利亚的亭子一样，你有一个。

And then he drew that and you had the person with cash and a receipt just showing your top-up was successful.

然后他画了那个，你就看到了那个拿着现金和收据的人，表明你的充值成功了。

And we built that product.

我们开发了该产品。

Not exactly in that way, but we built that product.

不完全是这样，但我们制造了该产品。

Sorry, for another day or maybe for later, but that's the story.

抱歉，改天或者稍后再说，但故事就是这样。

It took four years to build it, but that image got people so excited about, oh, it's possible.

它花了四年的时间才建成，但这个形象让人们如此兴奋，哦，这是可能的。

I can see that.

我看得出来。

Lenny: This is awesome.

莱尼：这太棒了。

So essentially these are three ways to communicate your vision.

本质上来说，这是三种传达愿景的方式。

The first is this kind of Mad Libs approach, which is really simple.

第一种是这种Mad Libs 方法，非常简单。

So the framework and is there something we can link people to you that where you talk further, kind of have this template?

那么框架，我们是否可以将人们与您联系起来，您进一步讨论时是否有这个模板？

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

So in the show notes, you'll find a little template that you can plug and play here, but the idea is once upon a time, blank and then blank.

因此，在演出笔记中，您会发现一个可以在此处即插即用的小模板，但这个想法曾几何时，一片空白。

And because of that blank and one day something happened, and that's essentially the vision is like what happened, the big change that you're going to create.

由于这种空白，有一天发生了一些事情，这本质上就是愿景就像发生的事情一样，你将创造巨大的改变。

Ebi Atawodi: And then as a result of the thing that happened, how did you leave people feeling?

Ebi Atawodi：发生这件事后，你给人们留下了怎样的感受？

What did you change in the world?

你改变了世界什么？

What's the dent in the universe that you made?

你在宇宙中留下了什么痕迹？

Lenny: Can you just share this Mad Libs real quick again, just like what's the framework real quick?

Lenny：你能再次快速地分享一下这个疯狂的自由吗？就像框架是什么一样？

Ebi Atawodi: Once upon a time, the thing that happened, then one day...

Ebi Atawodi：从前，发生的事情，然后有一天......

And you can actually put the date in 2026.

实际上你可以把日期定在 2026 年。

And because of that and because of that...

正因为如此，正因为如此......

And I usually like to end it with, and finally, this was the last thing you left the world with.

我通常喜欢这样结束，最后，这是你离开这个世界的最后一件事。

Lenny: Beautiful.

莱尼：美丽。

It's interesting, it kind of follows the hero's journey a little bit where it's like, here's today's world and then here's a problem that you ran into and this challenge you had to overcome.

这很有趣，它有点跟随英雄的旅程，就像今天的世界，然后这是你遇到的问题和你必须克服的挑战。

And then here's how we've defeated the foe.

然后这就是我们如何击败敌人的。

And then here we are back in our default world again.

然后我们又回到了默认世界。

Okay, so that's one path.

好的，这是一条路。

The other path is to write, working backwards approach, write an article.

另一条路是写作，逆向工作的方法，写一篇文章。

I think the press release is...

我认为新闻稿是...

To me, it's dumb to write a press release.

对我来说，写新闻稿是愚蠢的。

No one reads press releases anymore.

没有人再阅读新闻稿了。

So I like that you think of it as a TechCrunch article.

所以我喜欢你将其视为一篇 TechCrunch 文章。

Lenny: Is there something you remember where you did that actually with a product?

Lenny：您还记得您在产品中实际执行过哪些操作吗？

Like you wrote an article of a product you were launching?

就像您写了一篇关于您要推出的产品的文章一样？

Ebi Atawodi: At Uber, we were talking about cars, then it was like, well push a button, get a ride.

Ebi Atawodi：在 Uber，我们讨论的是汽车，然后就像是，按一下按钮，就可以搭车了。

It could be push a button, go anywhere.

只需按一下按钮，就可以去任何地方。

And so, one of the things I started talking about...

所以，我开始谈论的一件事......

And this was the beauty of Uber, it allowed you kind of challenge the status quo.

这就是 Uber 的魅力所在，它让你可以挑战现状。

I started pushing this idea of if we need to have this more multimodal trip where I could take a...

我开始推动这个想法，如果我们需要进行更多的多式联运旅行，我可以……

Ride a bicycle or a scooter, then I get to the train station, buy my ticket, scan in.

骑自行车或踏板车，然后我到达火车站，买票，扫描。

Then from there I go into an Uber maybe then I come out and the other end and I get a scooter, whatever that is.

然后从那里我进入优步，也许然后我出来，在另一端，我得到一辆踏板车，不管那是什么。

It's this connected single trip.

这是一次连贯的单程旅行。

And the reason I was doing that was I was a Platform PM and surprise surprise, I always say Platform PMs, you have to be an order of magnitude even more stronger I think at vision setting because you have to build the foundations of stuff you don't even know is coming.

我这样做的原因是我是一名平台产品经理，令人惊讶的是，我总是说平台产品经理，你必须变得更强大，我认为在愿景设定方面，因为你必须为你甚至不知道即将到来的东西打下基础。

Ebi Atawodi: So I would do these exercises with my partner teams to figure out, even if they don't know it, force a vision out of them just to say, "Is this where we are going?" Because then as somebody building the commerce infrastructure for Uber, I need to know when I need to build if that is a scenario that's actually going to happen.

Ebi Atawodi：因此，我会与我的合作伙伴团队一起进行这些练习，以找出即使他们不知道的情况，也能迫使他们形成一个愿景，只是说：“这就是我们要去的地方吗？”因为作为为 Uber 构建商业基础设施的人，我需要知道何时需要构建这种情况是否真的会发生。

And we were also thinking about this world where you could tap to pay with your Uber phone.

我们也在考虑这个世界，你可以用你的优步手机点击支付。

So there were all these crazy ideas and I wrote a headline of Uber really wants to replace your...

因此，出现了所有这些疯狂的想法，我写了一个标题：Uber 真的想取代你的……

I put it as your clipper card in San Francisco.

我把它作为你在旧金山的快船卡。

Because I wanted my San Francisco buddies to relate to what I was saying.

因为我希望我的旧金山朋友能理解我所说的。

So I was like, "Uber is now replacing your Clipper card.

所以我当时想，“Uber 现在正在更换你的 Clipper 卡。

All you need is your phone and the app." And I wrote it out and we didn't go and build that product, but we built the payments and commerce infrastructure for the team that did.

你所需要的只是你的手机和应用程序。”我把它写出来，我们没有去构建该产品，但我们为团队构建了支付和商业基础设施。

And we were very involved at the beginning when it was getting kicked off of how does this look in a world where you can use your Uber to pay for transport?

我们一开始就非常积极地参与其中，当时我们正在思考，在一个可以使用 Uber 支付交通费用的世界里，这会是什么样子？

You can do that today.

今天你就可以做到。

So yeah, that's a real life example.

是的，这是一个现实生活中的例子。

Lenny: And that was an article that you ended up writing of what the announcement would look like or is that using this?

莱尼：那是您最终写的一篇文章，内容是公告的样子，还是使用了这个？

Okay, awesome.

好吧，太棒了。

Ebi Atawodi: It was the article framework.

Ebi Atawodi：这是文章框架。

So it was truly the New York Times headline.

所以这确实是《纽约时报》的头条新闻。

Even had their logo and then I had the subtitle and later on over time I wrote the actual article, the whole thing.

甚至有他们的标志，然后我有副标题，后来随着时间的推移，我写了真正的文章，整个事情。

But I started first with that just to kind of provoke a response.

但我首先这样做只是为了引起回应。

Lenny: And what did you see as the impact of having that?

莱尼：您认为这样做会产生什么影响？

What kind of benefits did you see having this article that you could pass around?

您认为转发这篇文章有哪些好处？

Do you have any memories of like, wow, that was really helpful here?

您是否有过这样的回忆：哇，这真的很有帮助？

Ebi Atawodi: It's two things.

Ebi Atawodi：有两件事。

So you'll hear me say product management is clarity and conviction.

所以你会听到我说产品管理是清晰和坚定的。

And in writing the headline, you have to focus.

在写标题时，你必须集中注意力。

Headline is not like...

标题不像...

It's not a PRD, right?

不是PRD吧？

It's a headline.

这是一个标题。

So when I've done this, what is the impact of this going to be?

那么当我这样做时，会产生什么影响？

What's the feeling people with?

人们有什么感受？

And it forces you to get to that clarity of, okay, we solved this problem.

它迫使你清楚地认识到，好吧，我们解决了这个问题。

This is actually going to be the painkiller that we're solving.

这实际上将成为我们正在解决的止痛药。

And then they translate that pain dealer into, they have a headache, they no longer have a headache.

然后他们将痛苦经销商翻译成，他们头痛，他们不再头痛。

Do you know what I mean?

你知道我的意思吗？

So I think it breaks clarity.

所以我认为这打破了清晰度。

So for me, as the PM I'm like, this is why I'm saying this is important.

所以对我来说，作为总理，这就是为什么我说这很重要。

Then you have the subtitled.

然后你就有了字幕。

So they'll usually have the headline and I'm like, sub bit.

所以他们通常会有标题，我想，小一点。

They've just launched a way to something something, and you have to write that as well.

他们刚刚推出了一种实现某事的方法，你也必须写下来。

Ebi Atawodi: What is the thing we're launching and is that realistic?

Ebi Atawodi：我们要推出的产品是什么？它现实吗？

And then using that to kind of socialize the idea to say, "This actually could work, right?" And I didn't go off and build it.

然后用它来社交化这个想法，说：“这实际上可行，对吧？”我并没有去建造它。

Somebody else went and did it, but we had already thought about it and bit that into our platform vision of we need to be able to support these different kinds of ways to pay.

其他人已经这么做了，但我们已经考虑过这一点，并将其纳入我们的平台愿景中，即我们需要能够支持这些不同类型的支付方式。

There's another interesting one that you're going to go to.

你要去的还有另一个有趣的地方。

The third one, which is write the story.

第三个，就是写故事。

Write the article that someone else will write or visualize it, right?

写别人会写的文章或将其想象出来，对吧？

And the visualize it, two things actually happened.

想象一下，实际上发生了两件事。

One a year and a half ago, in a strategy session I was running at YouTube, i...

一年半前，在我在 YouTube 举办的一次战略会议上，我...

Ebi Atawodi: The strategy session I was running at YouTube, I actually took a screenshot of the Google Play Store.

Ebi Atawodi：我在 YouTube 上举办的策略会议，实际上我截取了 Google Play 商店的屏幕截图。

I mean, I use an iPhone, but I worked at Google, so I was trying to be...

我的意思是，我使用 iPhone，但我在 Google 工作，所以我想……

So I took the Google Play Store and then I created rounded rectangles, just blank rectangles, four panels.

所以我使用了 Google Play 商店，然后创建了圆角矩形、空白矩形、四个面板。

And then I printed that out and I gave everyone a sheet and I said, "If we solve these problems, we solve all these problems that we've identified, what would be the screenshots?"

然后我把它打印出来，给每个人一张纸，我说，“如果我们解决这些问题，我们解决我们已经发现的所有这些问题，屏幕截图会是什么？”

Ebi Atawodi: You know when you go on the app store, it has the make money or express yourself, what are we trying to say and what is the mock, the hero mock, the marquee mock that we're showing?

Ebi Atawodi：你知道，当你进入应用商店时，它可以赚钱或表达自己，我们想说什么，我们展示的模拟、英雄模拟、字幕模拟是什么？

And then again, it forces people to, oh goodness, we can't show everything, so it's got to be three or four things that land the big rocks that will solve this problem.

话又说回来，它迫使人们，天啊，我们无法展示一切，所以必须有三到四件事才能解决这个问题。

Right?

正确的？

So everyone did theirs and then we talked about it and what was interesting is you'll find two or three that everyone comes up with if you've done a good job of telling a story around the problems.

所以每个人都做了他们的，然后我们讨论了它，有趣的是，如果你很好地围绕问题讲述了一个故事，你会发现每个人都会想出两三个。

And it actually quite beautiful to see.

它实际上看起来很漂亮。

So that's a very simplistic visualization that's not like a beautiful sketch or video.

所以这是一个非常简单的可视化，不像漂亮的草图或视频。

Lenny: I really like that as just a reminder that when you're even the article approach of announcing the thing instead of the traditional press release or even a Tech Wrench article, it's where will people find out about the thing you've built, and then use that as a way to frame what you've done.

Lenny：我真的很喜欢这样的提醒，当你用文章的方式而不是传统的新闻稿甚至 Tech Wrench 文章来宣布这件事时，人们会在哪里找到你所构建的东西，然后用它来框架你所做的事情。

So in your case, it's like the app store.

所以就你而言，它就像应用程序商店。

They're going to see this update in the app store.

他们将在应用商店中看到此更新。

Let's just see what that would look like as we announce it in the app store.

让我们看看当我们在应用商店中发布它时会是什么样子。

Could end up being a tweet, could end up being podcasts.

最终可能成为推文，也可能成为播客。

There's all these different channels.

有所有这些不同的渠道。

So I think that gives people more ways of telling the story.

所以我认为这给了人们更多讲述故事的方式。

If it's not going to be a press release.

如果这不是新闻稿。

Lenny: Then yeah, so you talked about this third approach of mocking up essentially the vision.

莱尼：那么，是的，你谈到了第三种模拟愿景的方法。

I always feel like if you have a designer helping you craft your vision, it's such a unfair advantage.

我总觉得如果有设计师帮助你打造你的愿景，这是一种不公平的优势。

So definitely try to a rope a designer in to help you tell a story.

所以一定要尝试让设计师来帮助你讲故事。

Lenny: Because just one design is going to, like you said, worth a thousand words, as they say.

莱尼：因为正如您所说，正如他们所说，仅仅一个设计就值得一千个字。

Ebi Atawodi: The thing though is I feel like it's an easy cop out to be like, "Oh, but my design team doesn't have resources." So I'm like, "No, that's not an excuse.

Ebi Atawodi：但问题是，我觉得“哦，但我的设计团队没有资源”很容易逃避。所以我想，“不，这不是借口。

Start drawing it with your hands in the app store." Still tell the story because the story, you should be able to tell this.

开始在应用商店中用手画吧。”还是讲故事吧，因为故事，你应该能讲这个。

I'm obsessed with Steve Jobs.

我对史蒂夫·乔布斯很着迷。

He would say, "Tell the story without slides." Right?

他会说，“不用幻灯片讲故事。”正确的？

So that mocking it up is just so you can actually bring that narrative and tell that story.

因此，模拟它只是为了让你能够真正地叙述并讲述那个故事。

And do an app store or sketch it out or use little rectangles to show low fidelity mocks.

并创建一个应用程序商店或绘制草图或使用小矩形来显示低保真度模拟。

Do not use, I don't have a designer, to be the excuse for why you don't bring it to life.

不要用“我没有设计师”作为你不把它变成现实的借口。

Lenny: And often the designer sees it and like, "This sucks.

莱尼：设计师经常看到它并喜欢，“这很糟糕。

I'm going to make it better."

我会让它变得更好。”

Ebi Atawodi: Exactly.

埃比·阿塔沃迪：没错。

So that's exactly what I did.

这正是我所做的。

I sketched this thing once and I gave it to a designer.

我画了一次这个东西的草图，然后把它交给了设计师。

It was literally post-it notes and they were like, "Okay, I see where you're going and it's exciting.

这实际上是便利贴，他们就像是，“好吧，我知道你要去哪里，这很令人兴奋。

I have some cycles, I'll spin it up." They spun up a lo-fi one, loved it, and I'm like, "Actually, I'm just going to make it pretty." Then they made it pretty and we got there.

我有一些周期，我会旋转它。”他们制作了一款低保真的产品，很喜欢它，我想，“实际上，我只是想让它变得漂亮。”然后他们把它做得很漂亮，我们就到了那里。

I mean now I'm a director, so I have a bit more agency with resources, but I was like a L-four PM, not even a senior PM when I did my first vision exercise.

我的意思是，现在我是一名董事，所以我拥有更多的资源和代理权，但当我进行第一次愿景练习时，我就像一个 L-4 PM，甚至不是高级 PM。

Lenny: Okay, this is awesome because I think it's really vague, this idea of I need to develop a vision, and I think you've shared some incredibly tactical clear steps you can take.

莱尼：好的，这太棒了，因为我认为它真的很模糊，我需要制定一个愿景，我认为你已经分享了一些你可以采取的令人难以置信的战术明确步骤。

I also want to talk about how to actually develop the vision.

我还想谈谈如何实际发展愿景。

I think you have kind of this step-by-step approach.

我认为你有这种循序渐进的方法。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Lenny: Okay, awesome.

莱尼：好的，太棒了。

So before we get to that, just again reminding people what we just talked about, which is just like here's all these ways of framing your vision, and there's a lot of ways to do it.

因此，在我们开始之前，再次提醒人们我们刚才谈到的内容，就像这里有所有这些构建愿景的方法，并且有很多方法可以实现。

It's not like you need to make a beautiful deck that you can just write it out.

这并不像你需要制作一个漂亮的套牌，然后你就可以把它写出来。

You could write a press release, you could write a tweet or you could get a designer help you mock it up or just mock it up yourself.

你可以写一篇新闻稿，你可以写一条推文，或者你可以让设计师帮助你模拟它，或者你自己模拟它。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Okay, so let's talk about your suggestions of how to actually go about developing and figuring out the vision for your product.

好的，让我们谈谈您对如何实际开发和确定产品愿景的建议。

Ebi Atawodi: Yeah.

埃比·阿塔沃迪：是的。

There are three pieces if you think about it.

如果你仔细想想的话，可以分为三部分。

So one is what I call empathize.

所以其中之一就是我所说的同理心。

The second is create.

二是创造。

So we spend a lot of time talking about create, the middle piece.

所以我们花了很多时间谈论创造，中间的部分。

Another's evangelize.

另一个人传福音。

And so I empathize with the customer, the problem.

所以我对客户和问题表示同情。

I put myself in their shoes.

我设身处地为他们着想。

I really get a visual understanding of what those problems are.

我真正直观地了解了这些问题是什么。

I'll talk about it in a second the tactical way I have done that across Uber, Netflix, and Google in a way that scales.

稍后我将讨论我在 Uber、Netflix 和 Google 上以可扩展的方式做到这一点的战术方式。

Then the create piece where it's okay, now we've solved this problem.

然后创建一块就可以了，现在我们已经解决了这个问题。

What does the world look like?

世界是什么样子的？

That's the vision we've just been talking about.

这就是我们刚才谈到的愿景。

And then finally, evangelize.

最后，传福音。

Ebi Atawodi: So I find just especially as you get more senior, the life cycle of a product or a group of products gets wider and wider and wider.

Ebi Atawodi：所以我发现，尤其是当你的职位越来越高时，一个产品或一组产品的生命周期会变得越来越宽。

And so I set out a vision, for example at YouTube last year that was called Vision 2026.

因此，我制定了一个愿景，例如去年在 YouTube 上的愿景 2026。

And only this year, a year and a half later, are we now at a stage where it's actually going into the planning cycle.

直到今年，一年半之后，我们才真正进入规划周期的阶段。

We've actually finished all the things were already in progress.

我们实际上已经完成了所有已经在进行的事情。

We're actually now funding some of the big rocks that get us there.

事实上，我们现在正在资助一些让我们实现这一目标的大石头。

Ebi Atawodi: So there's a bit of patience that comes with it.

Ebi Atawodi：所以需要一点耐心。

And I think some people just give up when they get to the stage because you're going to meet a lot of naysayers.

我认为有些人一上台就放弃了，因为你会遇到很多反对者。

That one person's like, "But there's no way the engineering is ever going to solve." There's always going to be those people which is why I said you need to come up with a vision that's in a vacuum of the technical limitations because the limitations of today might not be the limitations of tomorrow.

有人会说，“但是工程永远无法解决这个问题。”总会有这样的人，这就是为什么我说你需要在技术限制的真空中提出一个愿景，因为今天的限制可能不会是明天的限制。

Ebi Atawodi: So going back to the empathize, one of my peers at work uses this word, he says, "You need to do understand work." And what is understand work?

Ebi Atawodi：回到同理心，我的一位同事用了这个词，他说，“你需要做理解工作。”什么是理解工作？

It's crazy to me the number of PMs who never go through their products and go through the...

对我来说，有很多产品经理从未仔细检查过他们的产品，也没有仔细检查过……，这真是太疯狂了。

unless of course you're the onboarding PM, but actually go through the onboarding flow.

当然，除非您是入职 PM，但实际上要完成入职流程。

Because we're all in this state of using the product.

因为我们都处于这种使用产品的状态。

But actually, that first step where I don't have the product, what does that look like?

但实际上，第一步我没有产品，那是什么样子的？

I have multiple variations of accounts on YouTube.

我在 YouTube 上有多种帐户。

I have multiple accounts on Instagram.

我在 Instagram 上有多个帐户。

I have multiple accounts on Tiktok where I'm just using the product just like how does it manifest?

我在 Tiktok 上有多个帐户，我只是在使用该产品，就像它如何体现一样？

What do I like?

我喜欢什么？

What's going well?

进展顺利吗？

I had this thing with Uber.

我和 Uber 发生过这样的事。

I had Uber, I had other partner apps, I would look at them and payment services, empathize comes very easily if you dog food and then cat food.

我有 Uber，我有其他合作伙伴应用程序，我会查看它们和支付服务，如果你先吃狗粮，然后再吃猫粮，那么很容易产生共鸣。

Dog food, meaning using your own product, absolutely a must.

狗粮，意味着使用自己的产品，绝对是必须的。

Cat food using your competitors or other people in the landscape's products.

猫粮使用你的竞争对手或景观中其他人的产品。

Ebi Atawodi: So that's one piece.

Ebi Atawodi：所以这是一件。

The other piece is obviously research, but research is an interesting one because I think you use research.

另一部分显然是研究，但研究是一个有趣的部分，因为我认为你使用研究。

I think research is rich when it's giving you foundational problems that are a couple of cycles out, obviously depending on the level of research you're doing.

我认为当研究给你几个周期后的基础问题时，研究就很丰富，这显然取决于你正在进行的研究水平。

But your researcher, if you think about the product cycle, research is ahead, and then UX, and then you go into building, it's like in that phase.

但是你的研究人员，如果你考虑产品周期，研究就在前面，然后是用户体验，然后你进入构建，就像在那个阶段一样。

Ebi Atawodi: And so I find too many people lean into and, "Let's go test it, let's go do some research." It's like, dude, you're a human.

Ebi Atawodi：所以我发现太多人倾向于“让我们去测试一下，让我们去做一些研究”。就像，伙计，你是一个人。

Look at the products.

看看产品。

Would you use that?

你会用那个吗？

You built some intuition from just exposing yourself to really good products.

通过接触真正好的产品，你建立了一些直觉。

Every time you pick up your phone, what is it about the apps that you love?

每次你拿起手机时，你喜欢的应用程序有哪些？

Do you think about that?

你想一想吗？

Oh, I open up my phone.

哦，我打开手机。

I love Spotify.

我喜欢 Spotify。

I also love YouTube Music, but I really love Spotify for my music.

我也喜欢 YouTube Music，但我更喜欢 Spotify 来听音乐。

I've used it for years and I'm like, okay, what is it about this new thing that just rolled that I love?

我已经使用它很多年了，我想，好吧，这个我喜欢的新东西到底是什么？

And I try to articulate that.

我试图阐明这一点。

Ebi Atawodi: So there's that piece, but then the tactical thing that I almost make every PM on my team do I call it top 10 things you should know.

Ebi Atawodi：那就是那件事，但是我几乎让我团队中的每个 PM 都做的战术事情我称之为你应该知道的 10 件事。

It's a living document.

这是一份活的文件。

So in my org right now I've got quite a number of PMs and for each of those PMs in this living Google Doc, it's like go slash studio problems, they literally put 10 things, like 10 problems you should know.

因此，现在在我的组织中，我有相当多的 PM，对于这个活生生的 Google 文档中的每个 PM，这就像 golash studio 问题一样，他们实际上提出了 10 件事，就像你应该知道的 10 个问题。

And you revise it.

然后你修改它。

Every quarter you update it and they're separate.

每个季度你都会更新它并且它们是分开的。

So it's like a living set of problems.

所以这就像一系列活生生的问题。

And they could be qualitative, they could be quantitative, they could be tech debt.

它们可以是定性的，也可以是定量的，也可以是科技债务。

They should be tech debt.

它们应该是科技债务。

Lenny: These are just known problems with the product that everyone was aware of?

莱尼：这些只是每个人都知道的产品已知问题？

Ebi Atawodi: You kind of farm for the problems.

Ebi Atawodi：你种田就是为了解决问题。

So you keep that doc going.

所以你让那个医生继续下去。

And so I first started this at Uber on the money team and I called it money problems, more money, more problems because I do fundamentally believe we should bring joy into everything we try to do, so have fun with it.

因此，我首先在 Uber 的资金团队中开始了这项工作，我称之为金钱问题，更多的钱，更多的问题，因为我从根本上相信我们应该为我们尝试做的每件事带来快乐，所以享受其中的乐趣。

So more money, more problems.

所以钱越多，问题就越多。

And essentially, it was in partnership with my data scientist partners that he had a team of product analysts and data scientists and they would pair up with my PMs and we would have the UX team, the UXR team, the data team, and the product managers, and engineering get together and actually look at their problems.

从本质上讲，正是与我的数据科学家合作伙伴合作，他拥有了一个由产品分析师和数据科学家组成的团队，他们将与我的产品经理配对，我们将拥有 UX 团队、UXR 团队、数据团队、产品经理和工程人员，他们聚集在一起，实际研究他们的问题。

Ebi Atawodi: So that living document means that for me, if I go around at least my minus one, not just for me but my engineering partner's minus ones, and my design partner's minus ones, and we chat them and say, "What are the top five problems for studio?" They should all have the same answer.

Ebi Atawodi：所以，这份动态文件对我来说意味着，如果我至少解决了我的缺点，不仅是我自己，还有我的工程合作伙伴和我的设计合作伙伴的缺点，我们和他们聊天并说，“工作室的前五个问题是什么？”他们应该都有相同的答案。

This says I've done my job because then we all know the problems.

这表明我已经完成了我的工作，因为那时我们都知道问题所在。

You can debate them.

你可以辩论它们。

You can discuss them.

您可以讨论它们。

You can have sessions where you revise and review them.

您可以召开会议来修改和审查它们。

But we do that and then we go into a room and for example at Uber, I literally printed them on cards and I put them on tables, scattered the groups and had people discuss and vote the ones that is the most painful because then you see the whole thing.

但我们这样做，然后我们进入一个房间，例如在 Uber，我把它们打印在卡片上，然后把它们放在桌子上，分散小组，让人们讨论和投票那些最痛苦的，因为然后你就会看到整个事情。

Ebi Atawodi: So that's the empathize bit.

Ebi Atawodi：这就是移情作用。

I'm spending a lot of time on this because I can't tell you how many times the clarity of the problem, going back to clarity and conviction, is missing and that problem is kind of like the North star.

我在这个问题上花了很多时间，因为我无法告诉你有多少次问题的清晰度（回到清晰度和信念）缺失，而这个问题有点像北极星。

Everything's going on, but there's a north star that doesn't move.

一切都在发生，但有一颗北极星不动。

Lenny: Before you move on, there's so much there I just want to touch on that are really interesting insights.

莱尼：在继续之前，我只想谈谈非常有趣的见解。

One is just this point you're making of when you're trying to develop a vision or thinking about the next step, you should be way ahead of that.

其中之一就是当你试图制定愿景或考虑下一步时你所提出的这一点，你应该走在前面。

You have this doc that you've been working on and consistently update and it's there way ahead of time.

您拥有这份一直在编写并不断更新的文档，而且它已经提前发布了。

It's not like cool, next year's coming up, let's start from scratch and figure out what the vision is long-term.

这并不酷，明年即将到来，让我们从头开始，弄清楚长期愿景是什么。

Lenny: Two is there's this quote that I think Patrick Hollison tweeted that I always think about in these discussions where a lot of people think of user research.

莱尼：第二，我认为帕特里克·霍里森（Patrick Hollison）在推特上引用了这句话，我在这些讨论中总是想到这句话，很多人都在考虑用户研究。

It's like user research, often people think of user research, you do user research and that tells you what to do.

这就像用户研究，人们通常会想到用户研究，你进行用户研究，然后告诉你该做什么。

And he made this point, no, it should be user research updates your mental model of your customer and what they need and the problems they're having, the stock that you're writing, and then that mental model informs what to build.

他提出了这一点，不，应该是用户研究更新你的客户心智模型，他们需要什么，他们遇到的问题，你正在写的股票，然后这个心智模型告诉你要构建什么。

Lenny: And so I think that's a big difference and it connects with what you also said of you should trust your gut and judgment.

莱尼：所以我认为这是一个很大的区别，它与你所说的“应该相信自己的直觉和判断力”有关。

A lot of people discount as a PM like I should have no opinions.

很多人认为作为产品经理我不应该有任何意见。

I'm just going to listen to what data and research is telling me.

我只是想听听数据和研究告诉我什么。

I'm not going to try to bias the team, but something I've learned more and more over time is just you should really trust your gut and your instincts exactly like you said.

我不会试图让团队产生偏见，但随着时间的推移，我越来越多地了解到，你应该真正相信自己的直觉和直觉，就像你所说的那样。

Ebi Atawodi: If I could put all the research into Bard or ChatGPT and it could spit out a PRD, then you haven't done your job.

Ebi Atawodi：如果我可以将所有研究放入 Bard 或 ChatGPT 并且它可以生成 PRD，那么你还没有完成你的工作。

So basically I maybe panicked my team.

所以基本上我可能让我的团队感到恐慌。

I came in, I'm like, gen AI, everybody's talking about all the stuff that you do with creating content, but what I want you to think about is what is the value add you bring that I can't just put into an AI right now and say, "Tell me the big thing based on this research that exists."

我进来后，我想，人工智能时代，每个人都在谈论你在创建内容时所做的所有事情，但我希望你思考的是你带来的附加值是什么，我现在不能只是将其放入人工智能中并说，“告诉我基于现有研究的重要事情。”

Ebi Atawodi: So I've never heard that quote from Patrick Hollison, but I agree.

Ebi Atawodi：我从来没有听过帕特里克·霍利森说过这句话，但我同意。

It's spot on.

这是正确的。

And I think this is where when you think about the qualities of a product manager, I think there are four pillars, product sense, leadership, execution promise, and technical ability.

我认为这就是当你考虑产品经理的素质时，我认为有四个支柱：产品意识、领导力、执行承诺和技术能力。

And it's not product logic.

这不是产品逻辑。

It's product sense..

这是产品感..

It's a feeling, right?

这是一种感觉，对吗？

It's a sense of what is right and that the exposure to products and the curiosity will refine that sense over time.

这是一种正确的感觉，随着时间的推移，对产品的接触和好奇心会完善这种感觉。

And I think that's the thing that people undervalue a lot.

我认为这就是人们低估的事情。

Ebi Atawodi: It's like you start program managing and just spitting out what engineering said we can't do and UX said they could do and you become this.

Ebi Atawodi：这就像你开始进行项目管理，只是吐出工程部门说我们不能做的事情和用户体验说他们可以做的事情，然后你就变成了这样。

That's not the job.

那不是工作。

The job is clarity and bringing this kind of context really to the set of problems that are being solved and you're curing them together.

我们的工作就是清晰明确，将这种背景真正带入正在解决的一系列问题中，然后将它们一起解决。

That's the key there.

这就是关键。

It's like you're curating those problems together.

就像你们一起解决这些问题一样。

Lenny: And one of the challenges I find as a PM is convincing people of your gut instinct of why this is right.

莱尼：作为一名产品经理，我发现的挑战之一是让人们相信你的直觉，知道为什么这是正确的。

But I think that loops back to the power of vision and helping everyone align, like here's why we exist and here's where we're going and here's what I'm sensing is probably an opportunity.

但我认为这又回到了愿景的力量，帮助每个人保持一致，就像这就是我们存在的原因，这就是我们要去的地方，这就是我感觉可能是一个机会。

Lenny: Okay, so just to summarize some of the tips you've shared on this empathize step.

莱尼：好的，总结一下您在移情步骤中分享的一些技巧。

One is basically user research, but I think even more importantly, use it to inform your understanding of the problem the users are running into and their needs and things like that.

一是基本上是用户研究，但我认为更重要的是，用它来帮助您了解用户遇到的问题以及他们的需求等。

What else did you talk about?

你们还谈了什么？

Oh, use the product.

哦，使用产品。

Actually be a user of the product.

实际上是该产品的用户。

In your case it'd be like upload YouTube videos.

在你的情况下，就像上传 YouTube 视频一样。

Yeah.

是的。

Is there anything else?

还有别的吗？

Okay, there's this doc that you shared.

好的，这是您分享的文档。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

So just basically a running document of known problems our users have with our product.

所以基本上只是我们的用户在使用我们的产品时遇到的已知问题的运行文档。

Ebi Atawodi: Correct.

埃比·阿塔沃迪：正确。

And when you start getting to the strategic lens, so you have a set of problems, what I sometimes will do is especially if you're, for example a platform PM, PMs generally have lots of stakeholders, there'll be a marketing team that's asking for something or an operations team that's like our market needs this.

当你开始进入战略视角时，你会遇到一系列问题，我有时会做的特别是如果你是平台 PM，PM 通常有很多利益相关者，会有一个营销团队要求某些东西或一个运营团队，就像我们的市场需要这个一样。

I'll sometimes bring them in at the beginning of the strategy session and give them a template, 10 things you should know.

有时我会在策略会议开始时让他们进来，并给他们一个模板，即你应该知道的 10 件事。

So you use my framework to give me 10 problems.

所以你用我的框架给我出了10个问题。

Because if you say, "Come present," they'll do like 50 slides.

因为如果你说“来吧”，他们就会播放 50 张幻灯片。

No, that's just 10 things you should know and stack rank them.

不，这只是您应该了解的 10 件事，并对它们进行排名。

So I put the work on you now to give me some color.

所以我现在把工作交给你来给我一些色彩。

Ebi Atawodi: I hear from marketing, comm, support, research, content strategy.

Ebi Atawodi：我听取了营销、沟通、支持、研究、内容策略方面的意见。

Actually had that in my last strategy session where it was the most mind-blowing 10 things you should know.

事实上，在我上次的策略会议中，这是你应该知道的最令人兴奋的 10 件事。

One of them was like the average reading age of an American is 11 years old.

其中之一就像美国人的平均阅读年龄是11岁。

And so you start to think of, oh my god, all the text we have, maybe we should use images or a video or whatever.

所以你开始思考，天哪，我们拥有的所有文本，也许我们应该使用图像或视频或其他什么。

So bringing this sort multifaceted view of the problems and then you do the work of sandpapering down to the core thing and then you have the final 10.

因此，对问题进行这种多方面的看法，然后你将砂纸打磨到核心部分，然后你就得到了最后的 10 个。

Ebi Atawodi: So that would be the tactical if you want to take it to a more strategic lens.

Ebi Atawodi：如果你想从更具战略性的角度来看，这将是一种战术。

That's how I'd run the first day of my strategy session is usually insights.

这就是我第一天战略会议的方式，通常是洞察。

I'll usually do three days, insights, strategy, then big rocks.

我通常会花三天时间，先是洞察、策略，然后是大石头。

And the insights piece is this where we go deep into the problems and I use this template of 10 things you should know, and then we come out with the final list of 10 things you should know, like a consolidated list.

洞察部分是我们深入研究问题的地方，我使用这个你应该知道的 10 件事的模板，然后我们得出你应该知道的 10 件事的最终列表，就像一个综合列表。

Lenny: I really like this additional tip you just shared of as you're trying to develop a vision for a team is bring in stakeholders and use this framework to help them crystallize here's the most important things to me from the product and things that I think are big opportunities.

Lenny：我真的很喜欢你刚刚分享的这个额外的技巧，因为你正在尝试为团队制定一个愿景，即引入利益相关者并使用这个框架来帮助他们具体化产品中对我来说最重要的事情以及我认为是巨大机遇的事情。

And then essentially, now you've got buy-in from stakeholders of hey, at least they've heard me and they understand and then here's what they came up with.

从本质上讲，现在你已经得到了利益相关者的支持，嘿，至少他们听到了我的意见并且他们理解了，然后这就是他们想出的办法。

And then I could be like, "No, but what about this thing?" That at least gives you a way to bring everyone together and understand how the process is going.

然后我可能会说，“不，但是这个东西怎么样？”这至少为您提供了一种将每个人聚集在一起并了解流程进展情况的方法。

Okay, so this week of work you just shared, so can you just talk a bit more about this?

好的，您刚刚分享了本周的工作，您能多谈谈吗？

Is this you leading the team through an exercise to develop a vision and a strategy?

这是您带领团队通过练习来制定愿景和战略吗？

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

And so you said the first three days are aligning and fully understanding and immersing yourself in insights?

所以你说前三天是调整并充分理解并沉浸在洞察力中？

Ebi Atawodi: I usually have strategy sessions of three days.

Ebi Atawodi：我通常会进行为期三天的策略会议。

I've tried to do it in two days.

我已经尝试在两天内做到这一点。

That is the absolute limit because I think you need to create white space for just the magic to happen.

这是绝对的限制，因为我认为你需要创造空白才能让魔法发生。

But I usually use a framework that it's literally what I call the narrative structure.

但我通常使用一个框架，字面上就是我所说的叙事结构。

So when we get into the conviction part, the clarity is the problems to solve.

因此，当我们进入信念部分时，清晰度就是要解决的问题。

The conviction is the narrative.

信念就是叙述。

The framing of that conviction is insights, strategy, big rocks.

这一信念的框架是洞察力、战略和大石头。

Ebi Atawodi: So the insights day is just focused on understand work, these five problems, actually using the app, doing teardowns of other apps.

Ebi Atawodi：因此，洞察日的重点是理解工作、这五个问题、实际使用该应用程序、拆解其他应用程序。

It's just like a day of understanding.

这就像理解的一天。

So the Google design, they ask the experts.

所以Google设计的时候，他们请教了专家。

In a way I've given the experts a template, that's what I'm doing basically.

在某种程度上，我给了专家一个模板，这就是我基本上正在做的事情。

And then the second day is where we now go into the strategy of all the problems we've seen, the 10, which are the ones we want to focus on in which order?

然后第二天我们将讨论我们所看到的所有问题的策略，这 10 个问题是我们希望按什么顺序关注的？

Ebi Atawodi: I always have four folks.

Ebi Atawodi：我总是有四个人。

So it would be depending on the level of the strategy, it usually be product, my engineering partner, my design partner, and research.

因此，这取决于战略的级别，通常是产品、我的工程合作伙伴、我的设计合作伙伴和研究。

Lenny: Got it.

莱尼：明白了。

So it's the leaders of the team.

所以这是团队的领导者。

Ebi Atawodi: The leaders of the team.

Ebi Atawodi：团队的领导者。

And depending on the org, I'll bring in data science because at Google we have a more shared data science resource.

根据组织的不同，我将引入数据科学，因为在谷歌，我们拥有更多共享的数据科学资源。

So I'll usually invite them as one of the partners.

所以我通常会邀请他们作为合作伙伴之一。

Come tell 10 things you should know.

来告诉你你应该知道的10件事。

So they'll say, "We need to do more instrumentation," or whatever.

所以他们会说，“我们需要做更多的仪器”，或者其他什么。

Ebi Atawodi: But you hit on the fantastic point which I was going to connect later, which is when you get to the evangelized stage, humans love to know you heard them.

Ebi Atawodi：但是你说到了我稍后要提到的一个奇妙的点，那就是当你到达福音传播阶段时，人们喜欢知道你听到了他们的声音。

So imagine it's like you did all the work of bringing them together to say, "Hey, tell me 10 things." You've asked the questions, you've come back and said, "Here's the strategy that we're going to focus on and here's the vision." And that last stage where you evangelize becomes so much easier because it's like how did you arrive at this vision?

因此，想象一下，就像您完成了所有工作，将他们聚集在一起说：“嘿，告诉我 10 件事。”你提出了问题，然后回来说：“这是我们要关注的战略，这是愿景。”你传福音的最后阶段变得容易多了，因为这就像你是如何达到这个异象的？

That goes away or like, but you guys didn't solve in that.

这件事就这样消失了，但你们并没有解决这个问题。

It's like we heard you and then we parse them into these 10 and everybody agreed with these 10 and therefore that's why we came up with this solution.

就像我们听到了您的声音，然后我们将它们解析为这 10 个，每个人都同意这 10 个，因此这就是我们提出这个解决方案的原因。

Lenny: So let's segue to the evangelize step, which I think I always talk about.

莱尼：那么让我们继续进行传播福音的步骤，我想我一直在谈论这一点。

I always think about the Seinfeld meme of when he is trying to get a car reservation where he shows up and they don't have his car and they're like, "We have your reservation, we just don't have your car." And he's like, "That's the most important part of the reservation.

我总是想起宋飞传的模因，当他试图预订汽车时，他出现了，但他们没有他的车，他们就像，“我们有你的预订，我们只是没有你的车。”他说，“这是预订中最重要的部分。

You take the reservation, but you don't keep the reservation.

您接受预订，但不保留预订。

That's the most important part." So I think to me it's always like you have this vision, you have amazing roadmap strategy, but if no one even knows it or hears it, that's the most important part.

这是最重要的部分。”所以我认为对我来说，你总是有这样的愿景，你有令人惊叹的路线图策略，但如果没有人知道或听到它，那就是最重要的部分。

So I think it's super important to understand this.

所以我认为理解这一点非常重要。

So I'd love to hear your advice on just how to successfully evangelize and share this vision that you've come up with.

因此，我很想听听您关于如何成功传播福音并分享您提出的愿景的建议。

Ebi Atawodi: In terms of evangelizing, I think about three concentric circles.

Ebi Atawodi：就传福音而言，我想到了三个同心圆。

So the core of your vision is your team.

所以你的愿景的核心是你的团队。

And I want to make sure my team understands the vision because I'm basically saying, "Get on this boat, we're sailing to the vision of the Bermuda or some island," and I describe this beautiful island.

我想确保我的团队理解这个愿景，因为我基本上是在说，“登上这艘船，我们将航行到百慕大或某个岛屿的愿景”，然后我描述这个美丽的岛屿。

They kind of have to be bought in and have conviction that they want to get there to actually sail on that boat together.

他们必须被说服并坚信他们想要到达那里并一起乘船航行。

Ebi Atawodi: And so the team is the biggest part and it's the whole team.

Ebi Atawodi：所以团队是最重要的部分，是整个团队。

It's not like just the PMs are the vision.

这不仅仅是产品经理的愿景。

We're just the designers are the vision.

我们只是设计师，就是愿景。

I will literally first start with each of the folks that were in the room.

我将首先从房间里的每个人开始。

We will basically bring our teams together and present an app.

我们基本上会将我们的团队聚集在一起并展示一个应用程序。

So for example, the one we did last year, we presented to what we call studio leads, which are essentially the triads for each of the product team, PM, engineering, and design for each of the product teams, and just presented it out.

例如，我们去年所做的，我们向我们所谓的工作室领导展示了它，这本质上是每个产品团队的三元组、PM、工程和每个产品团队的设计，然后就把它展示了出来。

And I had multiple.

我有多个。

Ebi Atawodi: We had the first one.

Ebi Atawodi：我们有第一个。

Then I had one in my PM weekly, presented it again then, "Hey folks, still any questions?" Because people are still...

然后我每周都会在我的产品经理中提出一个问题，然后再次提出，“嘿伙计们，还有什么问题吗？”因为人们仍然...

It's percolating.

它正在渗透。

It's like the tea bag.

就像茶包一样。

It's oozing out.

它正在渗出。

They're trying to understand it and they're trying to stress test it.

他们试图理解它并尝试对其进行压力测试。

And what I also do is I write the output of the workshop.

我还做的就是写下研讨会的成果。

So I'll always write the output.

所以我总是会写输出。

These are the insights we came out with.

这些是我们得出的见解。

Here's the ones upon a time framework.

这是基于时间框架的内容。

Here's the strategy.

这是策略。

Here are the big rocks and a vision is coming.

这里有大石头，一个异象正在来临。

Ebi Atawodi: And then we'll do the vision and say, "But this is the vision of where we're going if we do all these things." And that will be a living document, comments, open for comments, no edit, not view only, comments because you want anyone to leave comments in there and just feel they have a say.

Ebi Atawodi：然后我们会制定愿景并说：“但这就是如果我们做所有这些事情我们要去的地方的愿景。”这将是一个动态文档，评论，开放评论，不能编辑，不能仅查看，评论是因为你希望任何人都可以在那里留下评论，并且感觉他们有发言权。

You don't have to respond to all of them.

您不必对所有这些问题做出回应。

You don't have to resolve all of them, but just if you put rocks in a washing machine, they polish each other.

你不必解决所有问题，但只要你把石头放进洗衣机，它们就会互相抛光。

I like this friction.

我喜欢这种摩擦。

Ebi Atawodi: I always like, I go into the forest, I cut a piece of wood, and our job together is to polish it down to the beautiful danish furniture.

Ebi Atawodi：我总是喜欢，我走进森林，砍下一块木头，我们一起的工作就是将它打磨成美丽的丹麦家具。

So it's okay to have that friction to do that for a bit.

因此，暂时这样做是可以的。

And then once the team has kind of gotten to a place, I'm not trying to get anyone to a hundred percent certainty, I'm trying to get you just on the ride.

然后，一旦团队到达某个地方，我不会试图让任何人获得百分百的确定性，我只是想让你上路。

They will come, right?

他们会来的，对吗？

Ebi Atawodi: Then I kind of go to this next layer, which is the stakeholders, those people that came in and their teams and their managers go to them and sort of get them brought in to the vision as well.

Ebi Atawodi：然后我会进入下一层，即利益相关者、那些进来的人、他们的团队和经理去找他们，让他们也参与到愿景中。

And they'll also bring perspectives, right?

他们也会带来观点，对吧？

You're missing this piece.

你错过了这个作品。

We have a lot of engineering.

我们有很多工程。

Support tickets will blow up if you do this thing.

如果你这样做，支持票就会爆炸。

What does that look like?

那看起来像什么？

You guys haven't solved the thing we need to do today.

你们还没有解决我们今天要做的事情。

You're talking about something five years out.

你说的是五年后的事情。

Ebi Atawodi: You're going to get all the variations of feedback.

Ebi Atawodi：您将得到各种不同的反馈。

That's okay.

没关系。

The core that people have bought into that story.

人们已经相信了这个故事的核心。

And it's okay to have all the...

拥有所有的一切都没关系...

And then finally, once you've got the feedback from stakeholders, you then go to leadership, and leadership really as high as possible.

最后，一旦你得到了利益相关者的反馈，你就会去找领导层，而且是尽可能高的领导层。

So when I was at Uber and I was like an L-five, L-six, I had visions going all the way.

所以当我在 Uber 工作时，我就像一个 L-5、L-6，我一直有愿景。

I mean I had a fantastic leader.

我的意思是我有一位出色的领导者。

He put me on stage at an all hands to present the vision.

他让我全体上台来展示这个愿景。

And we were like one wallet, all Uber experiences.

我们就像一个钱包，拥有所有 Uber 体验。

And then we have this vision of a world where Uber Eats, it could be trains, it could be whatever and you have this one Uber wallet that can be used for all of them.

然后我们有一个这样的愿景：一个 Uber Eats 优食的世界，它可以是火车，也可以是任何东西，你拥有一个可以用于所有这些的 Uber 钱包。

And we had mocks of what that looked like.

我们对它的样子进行了嘲笑。

Ebi Atawodi: So go as big as possible.

Ebi Atawodi：所以尽可能大。

Go big.

做大。

Let people tell you to pull back.

让人们告诉你撤退。

Let your manager use lasso and pull you back.

让你的经理使用套索把你拉回来。

Go as much as possible.

尽可能去。

So I go to leadership and then I have leadership, I have to find that story as much as possible.

所以我去找领导层，然后我有了领导层，我必须尽可能多地找到那个故事。

So those are the three concentric circles.

这就是三个同心圆。

Core team, the people who will actually build this thing, stakeholders, the people that need to be bought in for this thing to be successful because they play a part, and adjacent teams because as we're building this thing, it might mean that we tell you no for one of your requests or something, and then finally leadership.

核心团队，实际构建这个东西的人，利益相关者，需要让这个东西成功的人，因为他们发挥了作用，以及相邻的团队，因为当我们构建这个东西时，这可能意味着我们对你的某个请求或某件事拒绝，最后是领导力。

It's hard.

这很难。

Lenny: It sounds like a lot of work and a lot of time.

莱尼：听起来工作量很大，时间也很多。

Do you do this for yearly planning?

您这样做是为了年度计划吗？

Do you do this for future 2026 vision?

您这样做是为了未来 2026 年的愿景吗？

Do you do this for quarterly plans?

您为季度计划这样做吗？

What's kind of the scale of vision that you invest this time into?

您这次投入的愿景规模是多少？

Ebi Atawodi: We go back to the four parts of the vision we .

Ebi Atawodi：我们回到愿景的四个部分。

If a vision is something that's coming next year, write a newsletter.

如果明年即将实现某个愿景，请写一篇时事通讯。

Write the newsletter, the headline article version or do the mock.

撰写时事通讯、标题文章版本或进行模拟。

When you are really getting into a vision, you're talking about something that almost feels attainable, but realistic, so it's a long-term thing.

当你真正进入一个愿景时，你所谈论的事情几乎感觉可以实现，但又现实，所以这是一个长期的事情。

Ebi Atawodi: And so you do the work and you take that time because you know that the rewards when you get everyone rowing in the same direction will mean a lot more velocity.

Ebi Atawodi：所以你做工作并花时间，因为你知道当你让每个人都朝同一个方向划船时的回报将意味着更快的速度。

And the ripple, I talked about evangelizing within the company, it's everything.

我谈到了在公司内部传播福音，这就是一切。

When I start talking to a candidate, I say, "Hey, my team's mission is expression meets connection, our vision is this." Then their eyes are like, you can see the twinkle.

当我开始与候选人交谈时，我会说：“嘿，我团队的使命是表达与联系，我们的愿景就是这样。”然后他们的眼睛就像，你可以看到闪烁。

And so the ripple effect of this thing is just broad and big.

所以这件事的连锁反应是广泛而巨大的。

My edge partner was just hiring for a role and in the job description, she opened it first with our team mission.

我的边缘合作伙伴刚刚招聘一个职位，在职位描述中，她首先介绍了我们的团队使命。

And it was like we have these short links at Google, so it's like Google slash studio vision.

就像我们在谷歌有这些短链接一样，所以这就像谷歌斜线工作室的愿景。

People get excited just seeing it.

人们光是看到就会兴奋不已。

So it's really this evergreen thing that is, we're talking four, five years.

所以这确实是一个常青的事情，我们谈论的是四、五年。

It's not the next six months.

不是接下来的六个月。

It's the next six months, do the tweet.

接下来六个月了，发推文吧。

Do the tweet.

发推文吧

Lenny: Okay, awesome.

莱尼：好的，太棒了。

I think that's very clarifying.

我认为这非常清楚。

And so is this something you encourage your PMs to do is just always be working on this vision for the next, say, five years?

那么，您是否鼓励您的产品经理做的事情就是在未来（例如五年）中始终致力于实现这一愿景？

Invest this time kind of in the background as you're shipping things every day, every quarter, to make sure people understand where it's going long term.

当你每天、每个季度都在发货时，把这段时间投入到后台，以确保人们了解它的长期发展方向。

And then it's like this one-off exercise that maybe you repeat every year too.

这就像这个一次性练习，也许你每年都会重复一次。

Ebi Atawodi: I think if you have to repeat the vision every year, you have not created a good vision.

Ebi Atawodi：我认为如果你每年都必须重复这个愿景，那么你就没有创造出一个好的愿景。

You haven't done the work.

你还没有完成工作。

So I'll give you an example of the one at Uber.

我将举一个 Uber 的例子。

What we kept doing was we would bring more fidelity to actually parts of the vision.

我们一直在做的是让愿景的实际部分更加忠实。

So we had a low fidelity mark, more higher, and higher.

所以我们的保真度分数很低，越来越高。

Then at one point-

然后在某一时刻——

Ebi Atawodi: Right.

埃比·阿塔沃迪：对。

We had a at Ohio.

我们在俄亥俄州有一个。

Then at one point we did a sizzle reel and actually had, if this thing is live.

然后有一次我们做了一个嘶嘶声卷轴并且实际上已经完成了，如果这件事是现场的话。

But we're not creating multiple visions.

但我们并没有创造多重愿景。

Remember all the things you read.

记住你读过的所有内容。

A desk on every table.

每张桌子上都有一张桌子。

It's not like every year it's changing.

并不是每年都会有变化。

Or going to Mars.

或者去火星。

It's not every year.

不是每年都有。

It's something that it's you literally rinse and repeat.

这实际上是你冲洗并重复的事情。

So the vision is something that is evergreen and lasts in my mind at least three years.

所以这个愿景是常青的，在我的脑海中至少持续三年。

However, and I'm talking about PMs from L4 all the way to L7 in my team, which is from a junior PM, senior PM all the way to GPMs in my org, all have a variation of a vision.

然而，我谈论的是我团队中从 L4 一直到 L7 的 PM，即从初级 PM、高级 PM 一直到我组织中的 GPM，他们都有不同的愿景。

That's a three-year thing.

这就是三年的事情了。

Now when they're going into a micro-visions that's like a macro-vision where maybe they're solving a small problem.

现在，当他们进入微观视野时，就像宏观视野一样，他们可能正在解决一个小问题。

Then they'll just do a mock of what that thing looks like next year and then in that mock, they'll present, "This is the mock of what we think it should look like." That is a vision.

然后他们会在明年模拟那个东西的样子，然后在那个模拟中，他们会展示，“这就是我们认为它应该是什么样子的模拟。”那是一个愿景。

It's a micro-vision but it is a vision.

这是一个微观愿景，但它也是一个愿景。

So do that.

所以就这么做吧。

Ebi Atawodi: And that's the thing they used to say, "Hey, leadership, this is the problem statement.

Ebi Atawodi：这就是他们常说的：“嘿，领导层，这就是问题陈述。

Here's what we think how might we solve this big problem and here's what we think it looks like when we ship it." That's a mini-vision.

这是我们认为如何解决这个大问题的想法，这是我们认为交付时的样子。”这是一个迷你愿景。

What I'm talking about is this macro-vision, but you actually can have the micro ones along the way.

我所说的是宏观愿景，但实际上你可以一路拥有微观愿景。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

That is really helpful.

这真的很有帮助。

By the way, I really like that phrase, "How might we." I find that extremely useful in communicating.

顺便说一句，我真的很喜欢这句话，“我们可以怎样。”我发现这对于沟通非常有用。

Almost a vision, basically, just how might we solve this problem?

基本上，几乎是一个愿景，我们如何解决这个问题？

Just that phrase alone is a really...

光是这句话就真的是……

There's this concept one of the PMs I worked with used called fertile questions.

与我共事的一位产品经理使用了一个概念，称为“丰富的问题”。

When you ask someone a fertile question that leads to discussion and a really good way to create a fertile question is how might we get more people to engage with YouTube analytics?

当你问某人一个引发讨论的丰富问题时，创建一个丰富问题的真正好方法是我们如何让更多人参与 YouTube 分析？

It leads to lot of good brainstorm ideas.

它会带来很多好的头脑风暴想法。

So good micro tip right there that we can include.

如此好的微提示就在那里，我们可以包括在内。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Wix Studio.

Lenny：本集由 Wix Studio 为您带来。

Your agency has just landed a dream client and you already have big ideas for the website but do you have the tools to bring your ambitious vision to life?

您的代理机构刚刚找到了一位梦想客户，您已经对网站有了很大的想法，但您是否拥有工具来实现您雄心勃勃的愿景？

Let me tell you about Wix Studio, the new platform that lets agencies deliver exceptional client sites with maximum efficiency.

让我向您介绍一下 Wix Studio，这个新平台可以让代理机构以最高效率交付卓越的客户网站。

How?

如何？

First, let's talk about advanced design capabilities.

首先我们来谈谈先进的设计能力。

With Wix Studio, you can build unique layouts with a revolutionary grid experience and watch as elements scale proportionally by default.

借助 Wix Studio，您可以通过革命性的网格体验构建独特的布局，并观察元素默认按比例缩放。

No-code animations at sparks of delight while adding custom CSS gives total design control.

无代码动画令人愉悦，同时添加自定义 CSS 提供全面的设计控制。

Bring ambitious client projects to life with any industry with a fully integrated suite of business solutions from e-commerce to events, bookings and more.

借助从电子商务到活动、预订等的全面集成的业务解决方案套件，将雄心勃勃的客户项目带入任何行业。

And extend the capabilities even further with hundreds of APIs and integrations.

并通过数百个 API 和集成进一步扩展功能。

You know what else?

你知道还有什么吗？

The workflows just make sense.

工作流程才有意义。

There's the built-in AI tools, the on-canvas collaborating, a centralized workspace, the reuse of assets across sites, the seamless client handover, and that's not all.

还有内置的人工智能工具、画布上的协作、集中的工作空间、跨站点的资产重用、无缝的客户移交，而这还不是全部。

Find out more at Wix.com/Studio.

如需了解更多信息，请访问 Wix.com/Studio。

Lenny: So I want to move on to craft but before we do that, is there anything else that you think would be helpful for folks to leave with in terms of getting better at vision?

莱尼：所以我想继续制作，但在我们这样做之前，您认为还有什么其他东西可以帮助人们在提高视力方面有所帮助吗？

Say someone's got a development opportunity of get better at vision.

假设某人有一个改善视力的发展机会。

Which of these things you've shared do you think would be maybe something they could start working on?

您认为您分享的这些事情中，哪些可能是他们可以开始做的事情？

Is it craft this five-year vision?

它是否制定了这个五年愿景？

Is it pick one of these three ways to communicate it?

它是否选择这三种方式中的一种进行沟通呢？

Is it change the way they're empathizing to inform the vision?

它是否改变了他们传达愿景的同理心方式？

Ebi Atawodi: I'll give a 1.5.

Ebi Atawodi：我会给1.5分。

I think it's, number one, it baffles me, and I'm somebody who came into product.

我认为，第一，它让我感到困惑，而我是一个进入产品领域的人。

I don't have a product management career.

我没有产品管理职业。

I came into product.

我进入产品领域。

And I've done that now at Uber and Netflix and Google and it still baffles me the number of people where when I say, "Tell me the top problems that keep you up at night," and then rambling.

我现在在 Uber、Netflix 和谷歌都这么做过，但当我说“告诉我让你彻夜难眠的最重要问题”，然后却胡言乱语时，仍然有很多人让我感到困惑。

I'm like, "What are we talking about?

我想，“我们在说什么？

Why are we rambling?" This is literally the thing that you come to work.

我们为什么要乱跑？”这实际上就是你来工作的事情。

This is the thing that should excite you.

这是应该让你兴奋的事情。

So I cannot overemphasize this importance of top 10 things but you don't need to start with 10.

所以我怎么强调前 10 件事的重要性都不为过，但你不需要从 10 件事开始。

I start with 10 and actually I always end up with top three.

我从 10 开始，实际上我总是排在前三名。

So in every deck, I'll have three things.

所以在每副牌中，我都会有三样东西。

Three numbers or four numbers.

三个数字或四个数字。

We just got a new chief product officer at YouTube because Neal Mohan is now the CEO, when I did my presentation to her, the opening sign is four things you should know.

YouTube 刚刚任命了一位新的首席产品官，因为尼尔·莫汉 (Neal Mohan) 现在是首席执行官，当我向她做演讲时，开头的标志是你应该知道的四件事。

With these four numbers and four insights.

有了这四个数字和四个见解。

So she walks away with that information now.

所以她现在带着这些信息离开了。

Ebi Atawodi: So it needs to be visceral and crisp and clear.

Ebi Atawodi：所以它需要是发自内心的、清晰的。

And then from that, just for yourself, have fun with it.

然后，为了你自己，享受其中的乐趣。

Take out a post-it note and sketch, if you were to solve this problem, what it looks like.

拿出便利贴和草图，如果你要解决这个问题，它会是什么样子。

Just start there.

就从那里开始吧。

Right?

正确的？

Just start there.

就从那里开始吧。

And then if you can at least convince yourself, I don't so much care about the deck.

然后，如果你至少能说服自己，我不太关心这套牌。

The deck helps, absolutely.

甲板绝对有帮助。

Or the pictures in the box.

或者盒子里的图片。

If you can tell the story of this is a problem and this is the world I see, imagine a world, that in itself is already you evangelizing the vision.

如果你能讲述这是一个问题的故事，这就是我所看到的世界，想象一个世界，它本身已经是你在传播愿景。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

That is so helpful.

这很有帮助。

So essentially, make this list of the biggest problems that your users have with your product and I think you also include infrastructure, tech, debt issues, maybe internal problems too.

所以本质上，列出你的用户在使用你的产品时遇到的最大问题，我认为你还包括基础设施、技术、债务问题，也许还有内部问题。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I just want to know this list for every company now.

我现在只想知道每个公司的名单。

Just what are their biggest problems?

他们最大的问题是什么？

I wonder what they're struggling with.

我想知道他们在挣扎什么。

Ebi Atawodi: By the way, the infrastructure piece, I know it's a nugget on the side but infrastructure is the product.

Ebi Atawodi：顺便说一下，基础设施部分，我知道它是一个边角料，但基础设施就是产品。

Period.

时期。

People are like, "Oh, tech debt." I'm like, "Yeah, it's a product debt." I cannot build a skyscraper on a shaky foundation.

人们会说，“哦，科技债务。”我想，“是的，这是产品债务。”我无法在摇摇欲坠的基础上建造摩天大楼。

So it is your problem too.

所以这也是你的问题。

It's not for the engineer to be barging on the door and be like, "Oh, there's a problem." So that's the other one I'll just call out.

工程师不应该闯入门并说：“哦，有问题。”这就是我要说的另一件事。

That in itself is problem as well.

这本身也是个问题。

Lenny: You're speaking to the heart of every engineer listening.

Lenny：您说的是每一位倾听工程师的心声。

Lenny: Okay, and then the other tip was sketch the solution.

莱尼：好的，另一个技巧是草拟解决方案。

Just do a post-it, draw it out, see how it feels.

只需贴一张便利贴，把它画出来，看看感觉如何。

I think just people don't realize just the power of, "Oh, I have to actually think about what this will look like and not just paint this very fuzzy picture of what it might be." Amazing.

我认为人们没有意识到“哦，我必须真正考虑这会是什么样子，而不仅仅是描绘出它可能是什么样子的非常模糊的画面”的力量。惊人的。

I feel like this is the most tactical and practical segment of advice on how to get better at vision.

我觉得这是关于如何提高视力的最具战术性和实用性的建议。

I'm so excited to get this out and for folks to have things that they actually do to get better at vision.

我很高兴能把这篇文章发表出来，让人们能够真正做一些事情来提高视力。

I feel like this could be the whole podcast but you have more awesome stuff to share so I want to keep going.

我觉得这可能是整个播客，但你还有更多很棒的东西可以分享，所以我想继续下去。

We're going to keep you here, extract as much content as we can out of your brain.

我们会把你留在这里，从你的大脑中提取尽可能多的内容。

Lenny: So you touched on this phrase that you like to use for describing what is the craft of product management, succinctly describing the craft of product management.

Lenny：所以你谈到了你喜欢用这个短语来描述什么是产品管理的技巧，简洁地描述了产品管理的技巧。

And I know there's many layers deep in this concept but just to start, what is this phrase and framework you think of to describe what is product management craft?

我知道这个概念有很多层次，但首先，您认为用来描述什么是产品管理技巧的短语和框架是什么？

What is the job of PM, basically?

PM 的主要工作是什么？

Ebi Atawodi: So I use, I want to say clarity and conviction.

Ebi Atawodi：所以我用，我想说的是清晰度和信念。

And that's what product management is.

这就是产品管理。

You bring clarity and you have conviction.

你带来了清晰度并且你有信念。

So you find a lot of time, we've just talked about a number of things.

所以你找了很多时间，我们刚刚谈了很多事情。

All of those things, what they're doing is bringing clarity.

所有这些事情，他们所做的都是为了让事情变得清晰。

And that clarity especially for the problem.

尤其是对于问题的清晰度。

So even when, I'll just give you a little tactical thing.

所以即使什么时候，我也会给你一些战术上的东西。

I noticed there's some PMs who will send an email and I read the email, I'm like, "What do you want me to do?

我注意到有些 PM 会发送电子邮件，我读了该电子邮件，我想，“你想让我做什么？

Is this an FYI?

这是仅供参考吗？

Are you saying there's a problem?

你说有问题吗？

Do you want me to help?" So just even something as simple as that.

要我帮忙吗？”即使是这么简单的事情。

Because as PMs, we're constantly influencing by bringing clarity.

因为作为产品经理，我们不断通过澄清来施加影响。

So the clarity, all the stuff we just talked about, coming up with a list of problems, really trying to understand what customers care about.

因此，我们刚才谈到的所有内容都非常清晰，列出了一系列问题，真正试图了解客户关心什么。

All you're doing is bringing clarity so that when you're in a room and someone is going off and doing actually we don't need that research.

你所做的就是让事情变得清晰，这样当你在一个房间里，有人离开并实际做事时，我们就不需要进行研究。

I feel like we all know that that's a problem.

我觉得我们都知道这是一个问题。

We don't need that research.

我们不需要那个研究。

Ebi Atawodi: Instead of doing foundational research, let's do UX validation when the time comes.

Ebi Atawodi：我们不做基础研究，而是在时机成熟时进行用户体验验证。

That's the kind of clarity you can break that saves cycles.

这种清晰度是可以打破的，可以节省周期。

So that's the clarity piece.

这就是清晰度部分。

And if you think when you think about what clarity is, you define clarity.

如果你思考什么是清晰度，你就会定义清晰度。

It's this transparency.

就是这种透明度。

It's the simplicity of understanding.

这就是理解的简单性。

That's what the word is.

这就是这个词的意思。

It's removing all, it's sifting out all the stuff that's polluting the core thing.

它正在清除所有东西，它正在筛掉所有污染核心的东西。

That's how I think of clarity.

这就是我对清晰度的看法。

And the tactical thing that I use to bring that clarity is the framework I talked about which is the narrative, insights, strategy, big rocks.

我用来澄清这一点的战术是我谈到的框架，它是叙述、见解、策略和大石头。

It brings clarity to why we're doing what we're doing, how we're going to do it and what we're going to do.

它使我们清楚地了解我们为什么要做我们正在做的事情、我们将如何做以及我们将要做什么。

And I spend time talking and I can spend time talking about all this but we talked about the workshop to do that and I actually have, and one of my old EMs who you've actually had on the podcast talks about this a lot.

我花时间谈论，我可以花时间谈论所有这些，但我们谈论了要做这件事的研讨会，而且我实际上已经讨论过，而且我的一位老 EM 也确实在播客上谈论了很多这个问题。

People have fancy decks.

人们有精美的套牌。

That's great.

那太棒了。

Clarity comes when you write.

当你写作时就会变得清晰。

So I made them write two-page documents.

所以我让他们写了两页的文件。

Ebi Atawodi: I'll let you go up to four, maybe.

Ebi Atawodi：也许我会让你最多四个。

But two page documents with insights, your strategy or I use the word approach sometimes and then the big rocks.

但是两页的文件包含了见解、你的策略或我有时会使用“方法”这个词，然后是“大石头”。

And the big rocks are not a laundry list of 20 things because if I asked you to make me a cocktail, you would put ice in first.

这些大石头并不是一份包含 20 种东西的清单，因为如果我让你给我调制一杯鸡尾酒，你会先加冰。

Then you would pour the drink.

然后你会倒饮料。

You would not put the drink and then put the ice or it will splash and it's messy and that's how an endless roadmap looks to me.

你不会先放饮料，然后放冰块，否则它会溅起来，很混乱，这就是我看来的无尽路线图。

So it's like 3, 4, 5 things that anyone can remember that are the biggest things that if we land, this gets us closer to solving the problems.

因此，任何人都可以记住的 3、4、5 件事是最重要的，如果我们落地，这会让我们更接近解决问题。

Then every other little thing is around.

然后其他所有的小事都在身边。

You can fill that around.

你可以把它填满。

That's the sand around the big rocks.

那是大岩石周围的沙子。

Lenny: So let's just actually double click on this little framework that you're sharing of insight strategy, the big rocks.

莱尼：那么，让我们双击这个您正在分享的洞察策略的小框架，即大石头。

This is essentially what you ask your teams to share as their strategy, as their plan, essentially.

这本质上就是你要求你的团队分享他们的战略、计划的内容。

The high level plan, it's not yet a roadmap strategy.

高层计划还不是路线图战略。

Do you think of this just as vision and strategy as this document?

您是否认为这与本文件一样是愿景和战略？

Ebi Atawodi: This is not vision.

Ebi Atawodi：这不是愿景。

This is not telling us what the world will look like if we solve the problem.

这并没有告诉我们，如果我们解决了问题，世界将会是什么样子。

That's the vision.

这就是愿景。

This is actually bringing clarity to the narrative of why we exist.

这实际上使我们存在的原因变得更加清晰。

So if you were a company, and I always use these, I feel like we can solve a lot of problems in life if we found a parallel in the world.

因此，如果你是一家公司，而我总是使用这些，我觉得如果我们在世界上找到类似的东西，我们就可以解决生活中的很多问题。

And the parallel I just look for is if this was a startup and you wanted to tell people why you exist and why they should invest in you, which is why you're doing this PM, what is the big problem you solve as a company?

我所寻找的相似之处是，如果这是一家初创公司，你想告诉人们你为什么存在以及为什么他们应该投资你，这就是你做这个 PM 的原因，作为一家公司，你解决的大问题是什么？

What's the strategy and what are the things you're going to deliver that would end up in the headlines that are coming in the future that you need money for?

您需要资金来实现什么战略？您将提供哪些最终会成为未来头条新闻的内容？

You're telling investors, "I'm going to build these things, I need money to do these things." That's what this is.

你告诉投资者，“我要建造这些东西，我需要钱来做这些事情。”就是这样。

It's just the narrative.

这只是叙述。

Ebi Atawodi: And I think one of the simplest things a PM can have is this narrative that when people come to you and be like, "Hey, you see all these emails, introduction, meet this person." And the PM are like, "Oh, I want to set up a time to understand what you do." I'm like, "Nope.

Ebi Atawodi：我认为产品经理可以拥有的最简单的事情之一就是当人们来找你并说“嘿，你看到所有这些电子邮件、介绍，认识这个人”时。首相就像是，“哦，我想安排一个时间来了解你的工作。”我想，“不。

Go to slash my narrative, read it.

去削减我的叙述，阅读它。

Then when we set up the time, let me know if you have questions." And guess what?

然后当我们约定时间时，如果您有任何疑问，请告诉我。”你猜怎么着？

A lot of calls will fall off just from that.

很多电话就会因此而减少。

Or when someone comes into the team and they're like, "hat are we about?" Onboarding, here's the narrative.

或者当有人加入团队时，他们会问：“我们的目的是什么？”入职，这是叙述。

So that's the narrative and that's the one that you refresh periodically so that you can refresh every quarter and refresh every six months because you're adjusting to what's happening in the world, what the problems are.

这就是叙述，这就是您定期刷新的叙述，这样您就可以每个季度刷新一次，每六个月刷新一次，因为您正在适应世界上正在发生的事情和问题。

That's a narrative.

那是一个叙述。

Lenny: One last question just so folks get a sense of where this fits into all their work.

莱尼：最后一个问题只是为了让人们了解这在他们的所有工作中的位置。

Does this come before defining the vision and then the roadmap?

这是在定义愿景和路线图之前进行的吗？

Where does this fit in terms of vision and roadmap in terms of the process?

就流程而言，这在愿景和路线图方面适合什么？

Ebi Atawodi: So the document is evergreen and updated.

Ebi Atawodi：所以该文档是常青和更新的。

I'm a big fan of evergreen documents because you create this mental thing where everybody just knows, link whatever the short link is, whatever you use in your company, they remember it and that's the link and that's where I go or they know what the name is to search for the document.

我是长青文档的忠实粉丝，因为你创建了这种精神上的东西，每个人都知道，链接无论短链接是什么，无论你在公司中使用什么，他们都会记住它，这就是链接，这就是我要去的地方，或者他们知道搜索文档的名称是什么。

It's like how we all know good PM, bad PM.

就像我们都知道好 PM 和坏 PM 一样。

It's lived for the test of time.

它经得起时间的考验。

So I believe in evergreen documents.

所以我相信常青文档。

Update the existing document or do a versioning of the doc, like 2022 version, 2023 version, whatever that is.

更新现有文档或对文档进行版本控制，例如 2022 年版本、2023 年版本，无论是什么。

So typically the narrative will happen before as you go into planning.

因此，通常情况下，当你开始计划时，叙述就会发生。

So just my team right now, we've just gone through a planning cycle.

现在我的团队刚刚经历了一个规划周期。

Now I already had a vision for the team, but basically each team, they took the overarching vision and said, "Okay, let's now bring that to life for our area." They had a set of problems, they had their strategy, approach we called it, and then they have the big rocks.

现在我已经为团队制定了愿景，但基本上每个团队都接受了总体愿景并说：“好吧，现在让我们将其变为我们所在地区的愿景。”他们遇到了一系列问题，他们有自己的策略，我们称之为方法，然后他们就有了大石头。

And everyone wrote the two pager.

每个人都写了两个寻呼机。

So we wrote this two page document.

所以我们写了这个两页的文档。

Ebi Atawodi: And then they circled around, the partners, the engineering teams and got feedback.

Ebi Atawodi：然后他们四处寻找合作伙伴、工程团队并获得反馈。

And that's what they then used to then build out the roadmap.

这就是他们随后用来制定路线图的方法。

Then they built out the roadmap and said, "Okay, based on that, this is what the roadmap looks like of unpacking those big rocks a little bit more." And usually what the rule we gave was, if you have less than three engineers on a problem, consolidate.

然后他们制定了路线图并说：“好吧，基于此，这就是进一步拆开这些大石头的路线图。”通常我们给出的规则是，如果解决某个问题的工程师少于三名，则进行整合。

More than three, it needs .

超过三个，就需要了。

So then you have the roadmap, it's just a Google sheet with a list of things and the resources assigned to it, and that's when we start to see, okay, where are you blocked?

那么你就有了路线图，它只是一张谷歌表格，上面列出了事物和分配给它的资源，然后我们就开始看到，好吧，你在哪里被阻止了？

You have enough UX, you have enough this, it's a bit more tactical.

你有足够的用户体验，你有足够的这个，它更具战术性。

And then you have your roadmap.

然后你就有了你的路线图。

But then after you've done the inside strategy, the big rocks or the roadmap, you can in parallel or after say, "Okay, let's take a week off.

但在你完成了内部策略、大问题或路线图之后，你可以同时或之后说：“好吧，让我们休息一周。

Spend time in a room and shape the vision." Or "Let's take a day off." I've once done one a day, the sketches I talked about.

花时间在一个房间里塑造愿景。”或者“我们休息一天吧。”我曾经一天画一张，就是我所说的草图。

We literally locked ourselves in a room.

我们真的把自己锁在一个房间里。

Ebi Atawodi: At Uber, we had no meeting Wednesday.

Ebi Atawodi：在 Uber，我们周三没有开会。

Google and YouTube, we have no meeting Friday.

Google 和 YouTube，我们周五没有会议。

And I said, just block your no meeting Friday.

我说，周五就不要开会了。

The next one we're going to get in the room, we're going to whiteboard.

下一个我们要进入房间，我们要使用白板。

We literally posted notes and the designer of course was like, "This thing is ugly," and then made a pre.

我们确实张贴了注释，设计师当然会说，“这东西很丑”，然后做了一个预览。

And that was the vision.

这就是我们的愿景。

The vision, I remember seeing so many docs at Uber with literally slides from my doc saying, " We agree with this vision and so therefore we're going to build this thing in our team to support it." And that's great.

这个愿景，我记得在 Uber 看到过很多文档，其中有我的文档的幻灯片，上面写着：“我们同意这个愿景，因此我们将在我们的团队中构建这个东西来支持它。”那太好了。

I feel influencing.

我感觉有影响力。

And I'm seeing it right now at YouTube as well, where teams are like, "Oh, I've seen that vision," and they'll refer to it.

我现在也在 YouTube 上看到了这一点，团队会说，“哦，我已经看到了这个愿景”，他们会参考它。

"I saw your studio vision on slide five when you talked about this.

“当你谈到这个问题时，我在第五张幻灯片上看到了你的工作室愿景。

This is what we did with it." So that's how I would do it.

这就是我们用它所做的。”我就是这么做的。

Lenny: Oh man, I feel like there's so many directions I want to go.

莱尼：天哪，我觉得我想去的方向有很多。

You have so many nuggets of wisdom but I'm going to get back on track.

你有很多智慧，但我要回到正轨。

So you have this framework of what a great PM is, clarity.

所以你已经有了关于什么是优秀产品经理的清晰框架。

Let's talk about conviction.

我们来谈谈信念。

What does that actually look like?

那实际上是什么样子的？

We

我们

Ebi Atawodi: Already spoke about conviction.

Ebi Atawodi：已经谈到了信念。

So conviction is the vision.

所以信念就是愿景。

Lenny: Mm.

莱尼：嗯。

Where you basically very succinctly tell here's where we're going and here's why we're doing this.

你基本上非常简洁地告诉我们我们要去哪里，这就是我们这样做的原因。

Ebi Atawodi: So definition of conviction is a feeling of what you think the way the world should be.

Ebi Atawodi：信念的定义是一种你认为世界应该是什么样子的感觉。

It's a feeling.

这是一种感觉。

It is not certainty.

这不是确定性。

It is not absolute.

这不是绝对的。

It is not perfect.

它并不完美。

But it's a feeling of, I feel like this is the right thing to do.

但这是一种感觉，我觉得这是正确的做法。

And that's what we're seeing when we talk about product sense.

这就是我们在谈论产品感时所看到的。

It's building this feeling of what you think is right so you bring that to life.

它正在建立一种你认为正确的感觉，以便你将其变为现实。

And so everything we just talked about is literally you converting the conviction from your head into something that people can consume.

所以我们刚才谈到的一切实际上都是将你头脑中的信念转化为人们可以消费的东西。

And that's the conviction, clarity, narrative, vision, conviction.

这就是信念、清晰度、叙述、愿景、信念。

Lenny: So this is specifically the craft or product management.

莱尼：所以这具体是工艺或产品管理。

If you want to get better at the craft of building great products, these are the two areas I imagine you point your PMs to get clear on things and then have more...

如果你想更好地打造优秀产品，我想你可以在这两个领域让你的产品经理弄清楚事情，然后有更多……

Is it more conviction?

是不是更加坚定了信念？

Is it clear conviction?

是否有明确的信念？

How do you think about the skill of getting better at conviction?

您如何看待提高信念的技巧？

Ebi Atawodi: If you have conviction and it's not clear, then you don't have conviction, quite frankly.

Ebi Atawodi：坦率地说，如果你有信念但不清楚，那么你就没有信念。

If you're like, "I think maybe we should, there are five things we should solve." I'm like, "Then you don't have conviction." So I'll sometimes stress test.

如果你说，“我认为也许我们应该，我们应该解决五件事。”我想，“那你就没有信念。”所以我有时会进行压力测试。

And I'm like, "What if I took away all your resources and you only had five, which is the one you're going to build?" I do all these Draconian things that just force clarity.

我想，“如果我拿走了你所有的资源，而你只有五个资源，而这就是你要建造的资源怎么办？”我所做的所有这些严厉的事情只是为了让事情变得清晰。

So then the conviction will come out and it's like, "Yeah, but I'm uncomfortable." I'm like, "Okay, so the thing that's making your uncomfortable, go spend time, go spend your research, go spend your cycles on getting higher certainty on that conviction," rather than chasing four things because we're, I don't want to use the word lazy, but too scared to pick a lane.

然后信念就会出来，就像，“是的，但我不舒服。”我想，“好吧，所以让你不舒服的事情，去花时间，去花你的研究，去花你的周期来获得更高的确定性，”而不是追逐四件事，因为我们，我不想使用懒惰这个词，但太害怕选择一条路。

So don't peanut butter.

所以不要吃花生酱。

Nobody does anything well by peanut buttering resources, spreading them thin.

没有人会通过涂花生酱资源、分散资源来做好任何事情。

So that's the conviction.

这就是信念。

I'll sometimes have someone come to me and say, "We have these two scenarios," and there'll be a document and there'll usually be the typical pros and cons of the options.

有时有人来找我说，“我们有这两种情况”，然后会有一份文件，通常会列出这些选项的典型优缺点。

Ebi Atawodi: I'm like, "Let's say we weren't in the room as the leadership team," which is the one the team wants to get behind.

Ebi Atawodi：我想，“假设我们作为领导团队不在房间里”，这正是团队想要支持的。

Then you'll sometimes see the team hasn't even done the work between themselves talking.

有时你会发现团队甚至没有完成相互之间的沟通工作。

I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. You need to go do the work." And if you have gotten to a point where you have conviction, but there is some risk, then let's talk about the risk that you need by help mitigating or help solving because that's too easy to come to me and be like, "Oh, here's A and B.

我说，“不，不，不，不，不。你需要去做工作。”如果你已经有了信念，但存在一些风险，那么让我们谈谈你需要通过帮助减轻或帮助解决的风险，因为这太容易来找我了，“哦，这是 A 和 B。

You do the work and tell me which you one to pick." No way.

你先做好工作，然后告诉我你该选哪一个。”决不。

No, that's not going to make you a better PM.

不，这不会让你成为更好的总理。

Go figure out why you can't stand by A.

去弄清楚为什么你不能站在A一边。

Lenny: So the core to conviction is pick what you think is right.

莱尼：所以信念的核心是选择你认为正确的东西。

That seems like the core of it.

这似乎是它的核心。

Clarity is being very clear about what you've learned and where you think things are going and then conviction is pick your battle.

清晰是指非常清楚你所学到的知识以及你认为事情的发展方向，然后信念就是选择你的战斗。

Here's where we think we need to invest.

这是我们认为需要投资的地方。

Ebi Atawodi: Right.

埃比·阿塔沃迪：对。

I like the word battle.

我喜欢战斗这个词。

Clarity is seeing that you are committed to actually fighting this war in the first place, right?

清晰是看到你从一开始就致力于实际打这场战争，对吗？

There are lots of other things you can fight.

还有很多其他事情你可以对抗。

This is the fight you're fighting in and why.

这就是你正在参与的战斗以及为什么。

And the conviction is how and the way you see the world if you win that battle.

信念就是如果你赢得这场战斗，你将如何看待世界。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

Okay, so you gave a talk on product culture and how the company culture informs and it changes the way the product is built.

好的，您谈到了产品文化以及公司文化如何影响并改变产品的构建方式。

So you worked at three very different cultures that I'm aware of, Uber, Netflix, and Google.

据我所知，您曾在三种截然不同的文化中工作：Uber、Netflix 和 Google。

All very different companies.

都是非常不同的公司。

I guess maybe just as a broad question, what did you see about the culture of the company due to change the way product is built?

我想也许只是一个广泛的问题，由于产品构建方式的改变，您对公司文化有何看法？

Ebi Atawodi: You think about what Uber has done in the world and you think about where we are now where it's almost so natural to bring out your phone and the car turns up with someone you do not know that you get into and trust them to take you where you're going.

Ebi Atawodi：你想想 Uber 在世界上所做的事情，想想我们现在所处的位置，你几乎很自然地拿出你的手机，汽车就会出现在你不认识的人身上，你可以相信他们会带你去你要去的地方。

If you fast forwarded to when my grandmother was alive, she would've thought you were crazy.

如果你快进到我祖母活着的时候，她一定会认为你疯了。

So just think of all the pieces that had to come together for that to work.

因此，只要想想所有必须组合在一起才能发挥作用的部分。

And it was a super hands-on, zoom out, zoom in.

这是一次超级实践，缩小，放大。

We say boardroom to streets.

我们说会议室就是街道。

You could roll up your sleeves and go in the streets and then go to boardroom, operations team, that really went into the fabric of a city and tried to convert that mission into what the manifestation is in the city.

你可以卷起袖子走上街头，然后去董事会、运营团队，他们真正深入到城市的结构中，并试图将这一使命转化为城市中的表现形式。

And I started at Uber as a GM before I became a PM.

在成为产品经理之前，我在 Uber 担任总经理。

So I firsthand experienced that.

所以我亲身经历过这一点。

I got my job, there were seven cars on the road and I had to figure it out in a country where there's no reliable running water, we want to do reliable transport.

我找到了工作，路上有七辆车，我必须在一个没有可靠自来水的国家弄清楚这一点，我们想要可靠的交通。

Ebi Atawodi: So what does that look like when drivers don't have a mobile phone?

Ebi Atawodi：那么当司机没有手机时会是什么样子呢？

We didn't have So there's this big piece of the operations and what Uber basically did was we're going to work very hard to get the right people in seats.

我们没有 所以有这么大的一部分业务，而 Uber 所做的基本上就是我们将非常努力地让合适的人坐在座位上。

We're going to give them complete autonomy.

我们将给予他们完全的自主权。

And the magic that just came out of that is the reason that Uber exists and that infrastructure is very much what has allowed a lot of the gig economy actually thrive.

刚刚产生的魔力就是 Uber 存在的原因，而正是基础设施让许多零工经济真正蓬勃发展。

Setting up these playbooks, trying things, learning, sharing with each other was a very big part of the culture.

制定这些剧本、尝试、学习、相互分享是文化的重要组成部分。

Now, over time, I call this the monolithic culture.

现在，随着时间的推移，我将其称为单一文化。

There was a culture.

有一种文化。

And the culture of ever went back and said, "Hold on, let's revisit this.

过去的文化会回过头来说：“等等，让我们重新审视一下这个。

Does it still serve us?

它仍然为我们服务吗？

Has the context changed?

背景有变化吗？

What are the parts that we need to improve, evolve?" Because here's the thing, if you don't intentionally evolve the culture, it will evolve without you.

我们需要改进、发展哪些部分？”因为事情是这样的，如果你不刻意地发展文化，它就会在没有你的情况下发展。

So culture is always going to evolve.

所以文化总是会发展的。

That's just the way humans are.

人类就是这样。

And the culture are the norms and beliefs.

文化就是规范和信仰。

And beliefs and norms change.

信仰和规范也会发生变化。

That's how humans are.

人类就是这样。

Ebi Atawodi: So I always say, "What are the good behaviors that you reward and the bad behaviors that you condone?" And if you're not going back to revisit that, then the culture just moves on and then the company's out playing catch-up or it moves on in the way you don't want it to.

Ebi Atawodi：所以我总是说，“你奖励哪些好的行为，你纵容哪些坏的行为？”如果你不回去重新审视这一点，那么文化就会继续发展，然后公司就会追赶，或者以你不希望的方式发展。

And then the world is like, "Oh my god, Uber.

然后世界就像是，“天哪，Uber。

Delete Uber," which actually happened.

删除 Uber”，这确实发生了。

I lived it.

我活了下来。

It's very sad to wake up and know that you're doing the right thing for the world and see that 400,000 people have deleted your app just because of a miscommunication, really.

一觉醒来，知道自己正在为世界做正确的事情，却看到 40 万人因为沟通不畅而删除了你的应用程序，这真是令人难过。

So this is a really big piece of Uber.

所以这是 Uber 的一个非常大的部分。

The spin there on the autonomy was one of the cultural values was the principle of confrontation and toe stepping.

那里关于自治的旋转是文化价值观之一，是对抗和脚趾踩踏的原则。

And this is codified in the value system.

这已被编入价值体系中。

It's like, forget about levels, step on toes if you believe it's the right thing for the business.

这就像，如果你相信这对企业来说是正确的事情，那就忘记级别吧。

And I talk all the time about the story of cash, where Travis Kalanick was against cash.

我一直在谈论现金的故事，而特拉维斯·卡兰尼克则反对现金。

Ebi Atawodi: By the way, I think up until he left Uber, he was against cash.

Ebi Atawodi：顺便说一句，我认为在他离开 Uber 之前，他一直反对现金。

But he believed in data and he believed in principle confrontation.

但他相信数据，也相信原则对抗。

And he was like, "Go test it out." And we tested it out and it did well.

他说：“去测试一下。”我们对其进行了测试，效果很好。

And that's why cash exists on Uber.

这就是 Uber 存在现金的原因。

Because the culture enabled that.

因为文化促成了这一点。

So I've talked about how it evolves and also the of Uber.

我已经讨论了它的演变以及 Uber 的演变。

You go to Netflix where it started as a monolithic culture.

你去Netflix，它最初是一个单一的文化。

It came out of, "Oh, we went through this experience where we had to cut the org down and we left these sets of people and they were performing just as well and had the same output and the same joy.

其结果是，“哦，我们经历了这样的经历，我们不得不削减组织，我们留下了这些人，他们表现得很好，有同样的产出和同样的快乐。

Hey, what did we do right here?

嘿，我们在这里做了什么？

Let's distill this down and distill it down into this no-rules rules framework of responsibility of highly aligned, loosely coupled a few of these tenants at Netflix.

让我们将其提炼成这个无规则的责任框架，该框架由 Netflix 的一些租户高度一致、松散耦合。

Ebi Atawodi: But I saw in my time, my very short time at Netflix when I left Netflix to go to YouTube, I saw the culture evolve in a very short space of time.

Ebi Atawodi：但我在 Netflix 工作的时间很短，当我离开 Netflix 去 YouTube 时，我看到文化在很短的时间内演变。

There was a very high degree of intentionality to evolving the culture.

发展文化具有非常高的意向性。

What does it mean to entertain the world?

娱乐世界意味着什么？

Let's evolve, let's discuss, let's change.

让我们一起发展，让我们讨论，让我们改变。

And so again, going into the product, when I joined Netflix, there was a whole value of the product would not ever be advertising video on demand.

再说一次，当我加入 Netflix 时，进入该产品，该产品的整体价值永远不会是视频点播广告。

It's subscription video on demand because we believe if we, and it was a strong belief.

这是订阅视频点播，因为我们相信，而且这是一个坚定的信念。

It was a belief system.

这是一个信仰体系。

And then over time, there were debates and debates.

然后随着时间的推移，出现了争论和争论。

I was a part of a lot of conversations around access.

我参与了许多有关访问的对话。

In a world where more people are on their mobile phone, do not have a TV screen, might not have a credit card, do we want to entertain the world or do we want to entertain some people in some places?

在一个越来越多的人使用手机、没有电视屏幕、可能没有信用卡的世界里，我们是想娱乐世界还是想娱乐某些地方的某些人？

Sounds familiar, right?

听起来很熟悉，对吧？

This is what we also had at Uber.

这也是我们在 Uber 所拥有的。

Do we want to offer Uber to the world or just some people in some places who have credit cards?

我们是想向全世界提供 Uber，还是只向某些地方的一些拥有信用卡的人提供服务？

Ebi Atawodi: So I saw that conversation go back and forth and the company allowed a structured way of having these debates.

Ebi Atawodi：所以我看到对话来回进行，公司允许以结构化的方式进行这些辩论。

So you would typically be encouraged to write down things.

因此，通常会鼓励您写下一些东西。

Write your argument but ultimately it's Lenny's decision.

写下你的论点，但最终这是莱尼的决定。

And it's funny when the buck stops with you, how the whole thing flips on its head.

有趣的是，当你不再承担责任时，整个事情就会发生翻天覆地的变化。

You'd think it would be chaos.

你可能会认为这会是一片混乱。

It's actually not.

其实不是。

You actually saw people go a lot more methodically around, okay, I need to make sure.

你实际上看到人们更有条理地四处走动，好吧，我需要确定一下。

I remember when we talked about conviction earlier, we said, how do you get the firmness in your conviction?

我记得刚才我们讲信念的时候，我们说，你的信念是如何坚定的呢？

I saw people do that work.

我看到人们做这项工作。

Be like, okay, I'm at 95%.

就像，好吧，我已经完成了 95%。

Can I get to 99%?

我能达到99%吗？

What would I need to do that?

我需要做什么才能做到这一点？

And because the buck stops with you, right?

因为责任由你承担，对吗？

In a world where people can sign up to multimillion dollar deals.

在一个人们可以签署数百万美元交易的世界里。

So without any approval, it's actually quite liberating but it's the liberation that's frightening.

所以在没有任何批准的情况下，它实际上是相当解放的，但这种解放才是可怕的。

Ebi Atawodi: So you saw this and this intentionality involving the culture and now going back to subscription video on demand, because you would write things down and people kept debating and pushing and pushing, there's now advertising on Netflix.

Ebi Atawodi：所以你看到了这个和这个涉及文化的意向性，现在又回到了点播视频订阅，因为你会把事情写下来，人们不断地争论、推动和推动，现在 Netflix 上有广告。

That's a culture that allows the product.

这是一种允许产品的文化。

Ebi Atawodi: ...

埃比·阿塔沃迪：...

right?

对吗？

That's a culture that allows the product to sort of evolve and change tenets.

这种文化允许产品不断发展并改变原则。

And then you see Google where it's very much just this, I sort of use this story of two little fish swimming in the water and the old fish goes past them and says, "Hey, how's the water?" And they're like, "Good." And then they swim along and they go, "What's water?" That's a little bit of what you get and it's like, we have this respect the user, respect the opportunity, respect each other, and that's all you get.

然后你会看到谷歌，它的内容非常简单，我用了这样一个故事：两条小鱼在水里游泳，老鱼经过它们说：“嘿，水怎么样？”他们说：“很好。”然后他们就游过去，问：“水是什么？”这就是你得到的一点点，就像我们尊重用户、尊重机会、尊重彼此，这就是你得到的一切。

That's it.

就是这样。

That's it.

就是这样。

Ebi Atawodi: What is Googling?

Ebi Atawodi：什么是谷歌搜索？

You know it when you see it, but what is Googling?

当你看到它时你就知道了，但是什么是谷歌搜索呢？

And so it allows for when you have this, what I call, the microcultures, where the culture within YouTube is different from the culture within cloud is different from the one in photos, different from the one in maps.

因此，当你拥有我所说的微文化时，它就可以实现，YouTube 中的文化与云中的文化不同，与照片中的文化不同，与地图中的文化不同。

You actually hear people say, "Oh, they came from search because they have a culture in search, which if you say you're going to deliver two basis points, you're delivering two basis points, right?

你实际上听到人们说，“哦，他们来自搜索，因为他们有搜索文化，如果你说你要提供两个基点，你就提供两个基点，对吗？

And there's a different culture and assistant where it's like, "Oh, experiment and try things and so on."

而且有不同的文化和助手，就像“哦，尝试一下，等等。”

Ebi Atawodi: So the culture almost becomes, it almost feels like a city, right?

Ebi Atawodi：所以文化几乎变得，感觉就像一座城市，对吧？

So I'm in Amsterdam and there's a culture in De Pijp and there's a culture in Amsterdam-Noord, where all the hipsters are, and there's a culture in West, right?

所以我在阿姆斯特丹，德派普 (De Pijp) 有一种文化，阿姆斯特丹努德 (Amsterdam-Noord) 有一种文化，那里有所有的潮人，而且西方也有一种文化，对吗？

It's the same in San Francisco.

在旧金山也是如此。

There's a culture if you're in the Mission and you're in all of those things.

如果你参与宣教并且参与所有这些事情，就会有一种文化。

So essentially what you then end up with is these microcultures, but then there is this looser macro culture that allows the flex of the culture so it manifests in different ways.

所以本质上你最终得到的是这些微观文化，但是还有一种更宽松的宏观文化，它允许文化的灵活性，因此它以不同的方式表现出来。

Ebi Atawodi: And what that means for the product is, you end up with a company like Google, where one side of the business is building something like cloud, another part's building something that's heavily data-centric, another part's building something very human.

Ebi Atawodi：这对产品意味着，你最终会得到像谷歌这样的公司，其中业务的一部分正在构建云之类的东西，另一部分正在构建以数据为中心的东西，另一部分正在构建非常人性化的东西。

Give everyone a voice, show them the world.

让每个人都有发言权，向他们展示世界。

That's YouTube, right?

那是 YouTube，对吧？

And you were able to do that because the culture allows that flex.

你之所以能够做到这一点，是因为文化允许这种灵活性。

Lenny: When you think of Uber versus Lyft and then there's Airbnb versus there's this company Wimdu that was one of their main competitors.

Lenny：当你想到 Uber 与 Lyft，然后是 Airbnb 与 Wimdu 公司，后者是他们的主要竞争对手之一。

There's these German guys.

有这些德国人。

It's interesting.

这很有趣。

In the case of Uber, they're very aggressive versus Lyft was nice brand.

就 Uber 而言，他们非常激进，而 Lyft 则是一个不错的品牌。

But in the case of Airbnb, Airbnb was the very nice culture and brand and Wimdu was extremely aggressive, just very hardcore.

但就 Airbnb 而言，Airbnb 是非常好的文化和品牌，而 Wimdu 则非常激进，非常硬核。

And it's interesting in some markets, maybe you win going really hard and aggressive and just like...

在某些市场上很有趣，也许你会通过非常努力和激进的方式获胜，就像......

Another Uber value, I think was, find your red line.

我认为 Uber 的另一个价值是找到你的红线。

Lenny: Just find your limit and get there, and that's where you're going to work.

莱尼：只要找到你的极限并到达那里，那就是你要工作的地方。

And then in hospitality, maybe there's an advantage to being an Airbnb where it's more warm and fuzzy.

然后在酒店业，也许 Airbnb 有一个优势，因为它更温暖、更模糊。

So that's interesting, that depending on the market, maybe a different culture has a bigger opportunity to win.

所以这很有趣，根据市场的不同，也许不同的文化有更大的获胜机会。

Never thought of it that way before.

以前从来没有这样想过。

Ebi Atawodi: What I saw that was interesting about Uber was there was a core that was very monolithic about, this is the culture and you hired people from all walks of life that live and breathe that culture, but there was a lot of magic that came out of a culture that also had the city at the core.

Ebi Atawodi：我认为 Uber 的有趣之处在于它有一个非常单一的核心，这就是文化，你雇佣了生活和呼吸这种文化的各行各业的人，但以城市为核心的文化也产生了很多魔力。

Ebi Atawodi: So celebrate cities was one of the core things, and customer obsessed was another value.

Ebi Atawodi：因此，庆祝城市是核心内容之一，而以客户为中心是另一个价值。

So if you're customer obsessed and the culture says celebrate cities, then you know what?

因此，如果您以客户为中心，并且文化提倡庆祝城市，那么您知道吗？

Maybe when we do ice cream in Nigeria, we're going to put this spin on it.

也许当我们在尼日利亚做冰淇淋时，我们会加入这种旋转。

We do Uber ice cream in San Francisco, we're going to put that spin on it.

我们在旧金山做 Uber 冰淇淋，我们将把这种风格融入其中。

Ebi Atawodi: So there's also this element of like, I could...

Ebi Atawodi：所以还有这样的元素，我可以......

Nice isn't the word I would use, but it was very accessible to anyone because it met them where they were.

“好”不是我会用的词，但它对任何人来说都很容易理解，因为它在他们所在的地方遇见了他们。

The product met them where they were.

产品在他们所在的地方遇见了他们。

And I think that opened the roads for...

我认为这为……开辟了道路。

No other company has been able to create ride sharing at that kind of scale.

没有其他公司能够创造如此规模的乘车共享服务。

It's very region by region and I think it's because of that.

这是因地区而异的，我认为这是因为这个原因。

Lenny: I think one of the other interesting things about culture is every team also has its own culture and part of PM and a PM leader's job is to create that culture and create good vibes and be a recent guest, put it, you're the emotional center of the team.

Lenny：我认为关于文化的另一个有趣的事情是每个团队也有自己的文化，而 PM 的一部分和 PM 领导者的工作就是创造这种文化并创造良好的氛围，并成为最近的客人，也就是说，你是团队的情感中心。

Is there anything you do on your teams to create that culture to make sure everyone's feeling good and excited and create good vibes?

您在团队中是否采取了什么措施来创造这种文化，以确保每个人都感觉良好、兴奋并创造良好的氛围？

Ebi Atawodi: So I actually spent time with both my VP and my peers, my engineering and design partners, and we have a little acronym called BEM, because it's Brian, Ebi, Matilde.

Ebi Atawodi：所以我实际上与我的副总裁和我的同事、我的工程和设计合作伙伴一起度过了时间，我们有一个名为 BEM 的缩写，因为它是 Brian、Ebi、Matilde。

And I kind joke, I'm like, "BEM." So BEM got together and created a cult.

我开玩笑说，“BEM”。于是 BEM 聚集在一起并创建了一个邪教。

We discussed the culture that we wanted to have on the team because indeed, it's how do you work?

我们讨论了我们希望在团队中拥有的文化，因为事实上，这就是你的工作方式？

And by the way, just fun fact, the reason I ended up at Netflix and got obsessed about Netflix actually, was when I was at Uber and we started all this evolving beyond this what we call Uber 1.0...

顺便说一句，有趣的是，我最终加入 Netflix 并真正着迷于 Netflix 的原因是当我在 Uber 工作时，我们开始超越我们所说的 Uber 1.0 的发展……

So I'm very Uber 1.0.

所以我非常喜欢 Uber 1.0。

I joined Uber as employee number 1024.

我加入 Uber，员工编号为 1024。

It's a very different Uber.

这是一个非常不同的优步。

As the culture was going out and in a way, in my mind, losing a little bit of the conviction that the other one had and becoming kind of like a catchall.

随着这种文化的消失，在我看来，在某种程度上，它失去了另一种文化所拥有的一点信念，变得有点像包罗万象。

Ebi Atawodi: It's pivoted in the right way now, but it kind of swung the other way.

Ebi Atawodi：现在的方向是正确的，但又转向了另一个方向。

I actually had my product marketing partner, his wife worked at Netflix and so he sends me the Netflix culture memo.

实际上，我有我的产品营销合作伙伴，他的妻子在 Netflix 工作，所以他向我发送了 Netflix 文化备忘录。

To your point, I created a culture of Netflix within my team at Uber.

就你的观点而言，我在 Uber 的团队中创造了一种 Netflix 文化。

And so the values that actually I have carried through, kind of go back to those.

因此，我实际上所贯彻的价值观可以追溯到这些。

I do believe in this freedom or responsibility.

我确实相信这种自由或责任。

I will give you freedom, but with that comes responsibility.

我会给你自由，但随之而来的是责任。

That means the buck stops with you.

这意味着责任由您承担。

We had a similar one at Uber, which was, owner, not a renter.

我们在 Uber 也有类似的情况，它是所有者，而不是租户。

Ebi Atawodi: Yeah.

埃比·阿塔沃迪：是的。

Owner, not a renter.

业主，不是租客。

How would you act if this house was yours versus when you rent, right?

如果这房子是你的，和你租的，你会怎么做，对吗？

And so it's that buck stops with you, kind of mentality.

所以这就是你的责任，一种心态。

Then there's this other one that I really think about which is, there's an informed captain.

我真正考虑的另一个问题是，有一位消息灵通的船长。

And so, I'm in too many conversations where I'm like, "Who is on the hook for this decision?

所以，我在太多的谈话中都在想，“谁应该为这个决定负责？

Who cares if this decision is made?" It's not like six people with consensus.

谁在乎这个决定是否做出？”这不像是六个人达成共识。

Who is the person?

这个人是谁？

Ebi Atawodi: And I'm very big on people on count .

Ebi Atawodi：我非常重视人数。

A lot of people are like, "Well, but there are five of us." And I'm like, "No, no, no. There's one person who owns this decision and that's the person that we're going to empower to get all the context, get all the input, to make the decision." Right?

很多人都会说，“好吧，但我们有五个人。”我想，“不，不，不。有一个人拥有这个决定，我们将授权他获得所有背景，获得所有输入，以做出决定。”正确的？

And it's like the rapid model where you end up with the decider.

这就像快速模型一样，最终你会做出决定。

Ebi Atawodi: And then, I think one for me, and this is just something I'm very passionate about, I'm a Black woman.

Ebi Atawodi：然后，我认为有一个适合我，这只是我非常热衷的事情，我是一名黑人女性。

I think a lot about how I show up in the workspace.

我对自己在工作场所中的形象思考了很多。

And for me, something that's so crucial is I say vulnerability is your strength, right?

对我来说，最重要的是我说脆弱就是你的力量，对吗？

And so we're all human.

所以我们都是人类。

We're all fantastically flawed in many ways.

我们在很多方面都有极大的缺陷。

Ebi Atawodi: And so I really, really fundamentally believe in this whole, who's the human behind the role and how's that human doing?

Ebi Atawodi：所以我真的、真的从根本上相信这个整体，谁是这个角色背后的人，那个人做得怎么样？

And I don't optimize for being liked to be very...

而且我不会为了被喜欢而优化...

And it sounds very harsh.

而且听起来非常刺耳。

I do not believe in being liked.

我不相信被人喜欢。

That's Ebi.

那是艾比。

I believe in being loved, right?

我相信被爱，对吗？

And that's a very, very different thing.

这是非常非常不同的事情。

And when I said this once in a meeting, people were like...

当我在一次会议上说过这句话时，人们就像……

Yes.

是的。

Right?

正确的？

But it took me a while and reading a lot of books to come to a definition of love, and love is the choice to extend yourself for the spiritual growth of oneself or another.

但我花了一段时间并读了很多书才得出爱的定义，爱是为了自己或他人的精神成长而扩展自己的选择。

Right?

正确的？

Ebi Atawodi: It's very big and lofty and whatever, but you're literally extending yourself for somebody else or yourself, self-love.

Ebi Atawodi：它非常大、崇高等等，但你实际上是在为别人或你自己延伸自己，自爱。

Right?

正确的？

And that's love.

这就是爱。

And when you're extending yourself, you're not nice.

当你扩展自己时，你就不好了。

It's not always nice or like.

它并不总是美好或喜欢的。

It's sometimes is having hard conversations.

有时会进行艰难的对话。

It's knowing that, "Oh, there's a human." Matilde, my engineering partner or Brian, my engineering partner, whoever those are, they know I care about them.

它知道，“哦，有一个人。”我的工程合作伙伴马蒂尔德或我的工程合作伙伴布莱恩，无论他们是谁，他们都知道我关心他们。

Ebi Atawodi: So when the feedback is coming like raw, they know that it's in their best interest because I've shown them enough times that I genuinely care about the person behind the role.

Ebi Atawodi：因此，当收到原始反馈时，他们知道这符合他们的最大利益，因为我已经多次向他们展示了我真正关心这个角色背后的人。

I feel like that brings the most powerful thing a team has.

我觉得这带来了团队所拥有的最强大的东西。

You'll see teams just tactically, they'll write a PRD, they'll send the PRD outside to the world, right?

你会看到团队只是在战术上，他们会编写 PRD，他们会将 PRD 发送到外面的世界，对吗？

To the other partners and I'm like, "Have you spoken to the other PMs on your team?

对于其他合作伙伴，我会说：“你和团队中的其他产品经理谈过了吗？

Have they read it?

他们读过吗？

Because actually, it might help you write a better PRD."

因为实际上，它可能会帮助你编写更好的 PRD。”

Ebi Atawodi: And so in my team now, we have our email distro.

Ebi Atawodi：现在在我的团队中，我们有我们的电子邮件发行版。

Gmail allows you to do the plus thing, plus PRD, and just ship your PRD, even when it's getting date.

Gmail 允许您做额外的事情，加上 PRD，并且只需发送您的 PRD，即使它即将到期。

And people will just help you shape it because we all care about each other.

人们只会帮助你塑造它，因为我们都关心彼此。

So it's a very, I know fuzzy and whatnot, but I do really believe in this thing of, if we get back to the core of humanity and there's a human behind the role and they have goals and aspirations, and if you care and love them, the rest of it will follow.

所以这是一个非常，我知道模糊之类的事情，但我确实相信这一点，如果我们回到人性的核心，并且角色背后有一个人，他们有目标和愿望，如果你关心和爱他们，其余的就会随之而来。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

I love this.

我喜欢这个。

You shared a trick for getting a sense of, if you have a good relationship with your EM, kind of along these lines, can you share that?

您分享了一个技巧，可以让您了解如果您与 EM 关系良好，您可以分享一下吗？

But this was before we started recording.

但这是在我们开始录制之前。

Ebi Atawodi: I did, I did.

Ebi Atawodi：我做到了，我做到了。

And it came from when I first got into product management, I was a PM in training, called a PM trial.

它来自于我第一次进入产品管理领域时，我是一名正在接受 PM 培训的人，称为 PM 试用。

And my engineering manager was an associate EM, sort of EM in trial and we hated each other.

我的工程经理是一名助理 EM，有点像试用中的 EM，我们互相憎恨。

We absolutely hated each other.

我们绝对讨厌对方。

And now, we love...

而现在，我们爱...

There was love in the end and he...

最终还是有爱情的，而他...

Still a very good friend of mine and it came down to first this...

仍然是我的一个非常好的朋友，归根结底，首先是这个......

I asked this question.

我问了这个问题。

Ebi Atawodi: Do you know your engineering manager's birthday?

Ebi Atawodi：你知道你的工程经理的生日吗？

It's the day they showed up in the world.

这是他们出现在世界上的那一天。

It's the most important day for them.

这对他们来说是最重要的一天。

It's the day they showed up the world.

这是他们出现在世界上的那一天。

Do you know their birthday?

你知道他们的生日吗？

Do you know their work anniversary?

你知道他们的工作周年纪念日吗？

Do you know why they're doing the job they're doing or what they want to be?

你知道他们为什么要做现在的工作或者他们想做什么吗？

Are they trying to be a VP?

他们想成为副总裁吗？

Are they trying to go grow a startup?

他们是否正在尝试发展一家初创公司？

What is it?

它是什么？

Ebi Atawodi: And so, if you go to this sort of human element of trying to actually bond with the person.

Ebi Atawodi：所以，如果你尝试与这个人建立真正的联系这种人性因素。

We'll do fun things where we'll just go to a show together or something or have lunch or dinner.

我们会做一些有趣的事情，比如一起去看演出什么的，或者吃午餐或晚餐。

Because if I'm spending half of my waking life at work, right?

因为如果我醒着的一半时间都在工作，对吗？

You sleep eight hours.

你睡八个小时。

The remaining time is 16 hours and you work, let's say, eight hours if you're lucky, right?

剩下的时间是 16 个小时，如果幸运的话，你可以工作 8 个小时，对吗？

You work eight hours.

你工作八小时。

If I'm spending that time with someone, I kind of want to have fun while I'm doing it and you'll have fun when you like each other, you love each other, even better.

如果我和某人一起度过那段时光，我想在做这件事的时候享受乐趣，当你们彼此喜欢、彼此相爱，甚至更好时，你也会享受到乐趣。

Lenny: Ebi, I wish I got to work with you.

莱尼：Ebi，我希望能和你一起工作。

You're awesome.

你太棒了。

By the way, this EM you're talking about is Gergely Orosz, who was on the podcast.

顺便说一句，您所说的这位 EM 是播客中的 Gergely Orosz。

Lenny: He's the author of Pragmatic Engineer.

莱尼：他是《实用工程师》一书的作者。

People may be aware of him already.

人们可能已经认识他了。

So how about that?

那怎么样？

Ebi Atawodi: And I knew he loved to write, so every time we would do a doc for example, to leadership, he would start.

Ebi Atawodi：我知道他喜欢写作，所以每次我们做一个关于领导力的文档时，他都会开始。

He would kick it off.

他会把它踢掉。

Even though it was something product centric, he would start writing it.

即使它是以产品为中心的，他也会开始写它。

I'm like, "Great, you're an awesome writer."

我说：“太好了，你是一位很棒的作家。”

Lenny: Look at him now.

莱尼：现在看看他。

.

。

Maybe as just the last topic, I'd love to hear any cool stuff happening on YouTube.

也许作为最后一个主题，我很想听听 YouTube 上发生的任何很酷的事情。

Stuff that you...

那些你...

I think you just launched some AI stuff, there's AB testing stuff that's coming out.

我认为你们刚刚推出了一些人工智能产品，AB 测试产品也即将推出。

Just like what should people know about new YouTube features, especially people like me that aren't publishing stuff on YouTube?

就像人们应该了解 YouTube 新功能一样，尤其是像我这样不在 YouTube 上发布内容的人？

Ebi Atawodi: Well, I'll go to one of the things we talked about, which is this once upon a time vision.

Ebi Atawodi：好吧，我要谈谈我们讨论过的一件事，那就是从前的愿景。

One of the visions we have as a team is, if you go back to the core of YouTube which is, give everyone a voice, share it in the world, it's really this...

作为一个团队，我们的愿景之一是，如果你回到 YouTube 的核心，那就是让每个人都有发言权，在世界上分享，这真的是……

YouTube is for creators big and small, who want to tell their story however they want to tell it, whether it's a podcast or live or video or short or post, and that we are the creative partner.

YouTube 适合大大小小的创作者，他们想要以自己想要的方式讲述自己的故事，无论是播客、直播、视频、短片还是帖子，而我们是创意合作伙伴。

Maybe that's another podcast for another day, but I fundamentally believe in when products take on some kind of persona.

也许这是另一天的另一个播客，但我从根本上相信产品何时呈现某种角色。

Right?

正确的？

Ebi Atawodi: And so we're like, "Okay, YouTube Studio..." Really, we're the creative partner.

Ebi Atawodi：所以我们会说，“好吧，YouTube Studio...”实际上，我们是创意合作伙伴。

We're not making the thing.

我们不做这件事。

You're making the thing, but we are partnering it.

你正在制造东西，但我们正在合作。

We're the ones giving you insights.

我们是为您提供见解的人。

We're the ones helping you with testing things that might work and if we could make your life easier, then you could just go do the fun stuff of telling your stories, right?

我们是帮助您测试可能有效的东西的人，如果我们能让您的生活更轻松，那么您就可以去做有趣的事情来讲述您的故事，对吧？

So there are a couple of exciting things coming.

因此，接下来会有一些令人兴奋的事情。

Ebi Atawodi: So one of them is AI inspiration, which we launched at Made on YouTube and when you talk to creators, and I always ask creators this question, "Tell me your creative process." There's always this big piece that's like the research, where they come up with an idea and they kind of flesh it out.

Ebi Atawodi：其中之一是人工智能灵感，这是我们在 YouTube 上的 Made 中推出的，当你与创作者交谈时，我总是问创作者这个问题，“告诉我你的创作过程。”总有像研究这样的大事，他们提出一个想法，然后将其具体化。

In your case, maybe it's finding the person and it's reading about them.

就你而言，也许它正在寻找这个人并正在阅读有关他们的信息。

This is pre-work that they do and sometimes they'll do work by looking at tweets or watching other YouTube creators or listening to other things.

这是他们所做的准备工作，有时他们会通过查看推文或观看其他 YouTube 创作者或听其他内容来完成工作。

Ebi Atawodi: And so imagine a world where we can actually use AI to generate ideas for you based on what we know your community of subscribers and viewers are watching, right?

Ebi Atawodi：想象一下这样一个世界：我们实际上可以使用人工智能根据我们所知道的订阅者和观众社区正在观看的内容为您生成想法，对吗？

So that's what I'm very excited about in some future world where I'd love to see you using that.

这就是我对未来世界感到非常兴奋的地方，我很高兴看到你使用它。

It's going to launch next year.

它将于明年推出。

There's already a version of it in YouTube Studio where you can just type in a word, you could be like vision.

YouTube Studio 中已经有一个版本，您只需输入一个单词，您就可以像视觉一样。

And then it will give you ideas and other videos and topics and keywords that are being searched.

然后它会给你想法和其他视频以及正在搜索的主题和关键词。

That's one exciting one.

这是一件令人兴奋的事情。

Ebi Atawodi: Another really exciting one is we launched thumbnail Test and Compare.

Ebi Atawodi：另一个真正令人兴奋的是我们推出了缩略图测试和比较。

So creators spend a lot of time on thumbnails, a lot of time.

所以创作者在缩略图上花了很多时间，很多时间。

And we've been working a lot with creators.

我们一直在与创作者进行大量合作。

We've been very systematic about just getting feedback and getting it out there.

我们非常系统地收集反馈并将其发布出去。

It's just rolled out even to a bigger set of creators yesterday, actually.

实际上，昨天它甚至刚刚向更多的创作者推出。

By the time this comes out probably...

到时候这个消息出来的时候，大概...

You might have it in your hands, Lenny.

莱尼，也许你手里就有它。

And so you're able to basically put two thumbnails, up to three, two, three thumbnails, and the system will actually AB test them and see which one actually works versus you sort of designing a thumbnail and then it out.

因此，您基本上可以放置两个缩略图，最多三个、两个、三个缩略图，系统实际上会对它们进行 AB 测试，看看哪一个真正有效，而不是您设计一个缩略图，然后将其输出。

So that's another exciting area.

这是另一个令人兴奋的领域。

Lenny: Dreams coming true.

莱尼：梦想成真。

I can't wait to try that.

我迫不及待地想尝试一下。

It feels like it's like the edit button for Twitter where it's like, "Come on.

感觉就像 Twitter 的编辑按钮，“来吧。

Why don't we have this?" And here it is.

为什么我们没有这个？”就是这样。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

Yeah, I've been trying to do some more testing on that stuff and there's all these clunky tools people have built that are hacky on top of YouTube to try to do this for you, so I'm really excited to try that.

是的，我一直在尝试对这些东西进行更多测试，人们在 YouTube 上构建了所​​有这些笨重的工具，试图为您做到这一点，所以我真的很高兴尝试这一点。

Before we get to a very exciting lightning round, is there anything else you want to leave listeners with?

在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想留给听众的吗？

Anything else you wanted to touch on or share?

您还有什么想谈或分享的吗？

Ebi Atawodi: I think one of the questions I get a lot of the time is, how can I be a PM?

Ebi Atawodi：我认为我经常遇到的问题之一是，我如何才能成为一名产品经理？

How can I convert into product management?

如何转型为产品管理？

And I just want to say, I'm this Nigerian girl.

我只想说，我是这个尼日利亚女孩。

I don't have an MBA, I didn't work in consulting, and I'm here, right?

我没有 MBA 学位，也没有从事咨询工作，但我在这里，对吗？

And I genuinely think that some of the best product managers come from something else because you have empathy for being on the other side.

我真诚地认为，一些最好的产品经理来自其他地方，因为你对站在另一边有同理心。

And so, what I always say to people is, " There's a power of 10,000 hours," and you see a lot of the stuff I spoke about.

所以，我总是对人们说，“有一万小时的力量”，你会看到我谈到的很多东西。

Ebi Atawodi: There's a lot of this kind of immersing yourself.

Ebi Atawodi：有很多这样的沉浸式体验。

So already start product management, doing product management before you're a product manager.

所以，在你成为产品经理之前，就已经开始产品管理了。

Open up your favorite apps.

打开您最喜欢的应用程序。

What are the top 10 problems you see?

您看到的十大问题是什么？

In your head, design what the world could look like if you fix them, right?

在你的脑海中，设计出如果你修复它们，世界会是什么样子，对吧？

And what you do by doing that is this constant training of your product sense.

通过这样做，你所做的就是不断训练你的产品意识。

So when the opportunity comes, you don't get lucky, right?

所以当机会来临时，你不会运气好，对吗？

But you get, it's opportunity meets preparation.

但你明白了，这是机会与准备的结合。

You're already prepared.

你已经准备好了。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

By the way, I think you're the third Nigerian guest on this podcast.

顺便说一句，我认为你是这个播客的第三位尼日利亚嘉宾。

There's something in the water in Nigeria that's creating a lot of great product leaders.

尼日利亚的水中有某种东西造就了许多伟大的产品领导者。

Ebi Atawodi: .

埃比·阿塔沃迪：。

They say, "Get you a Nigerian friend.

他们说：“给你找一个尼日利亚朋友。

We keep it real."

我们保持真实。”

Lenny: Well.

莱尼：嗯。

With that.

就这样。

We've reached a very exciting lightning round.

我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

What are two or three books you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Ebi Atawodi: I really, really love this book called, 48 Laws of Power.

Ebi Atawodi：我真的非常喜欢这本书，叫做《权力的 48 条法则》。

I know it sounds very Machiavellian.

我知道这听起来很马基雅维利式的。

Beautiful book.

漂亮的书。

Another book that is one of my absolute favorites, is The God of Small Things.

我最喜欢的另一本书是《微物之神》。

It's a beautifully written, really wonderful book.

这是一本写得很漂亮、非常精彩的书。

And more recently, a book that keeps popping up in my mind is Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell.

最近，一本不断出现在我脑海中的书是马尔科姆·格拉德威尔（Malcolm Gladwell）的《离群者》（Outliers）。

Such a beautiful book because it just goes back to what we talked about earlier, it helps you see that there are patterns in certain things, right?

如此美丽的书，因为它只是回到我们之前讨论的内容，它可以帮助你看到某些事物的模式，对吗？

Yeah.

是的。

It's been coming out maybe quite a lot.

它已经出来了，也许很多。

I'm a voracious reader, by the way.

顺便说一句，我是一个贪婪的读者。

Find me on Goodreads.

在 Goodreads 上找到我。

I read a lot.

我读了很多。

Lenny: Oh, that's amazing.

莱尼：噢，太棒了。

We will find that.

我们会发现这一点。

What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Ebi Atawodi: Oh, my God, The Bear.

Ebi Atawodi：哦，我的上帝，熊。

Just The Bear.

只是熊。

Go watch it.

去看吧。

It feels like being a PM, honestly.

说实话，感觉就像是一名 PM。

The Bear is the show, I think it's on Star or Disney.

《熊》就是这部剧，我想是在明星或迪士尼上播出的。

Ebi Atawodi: Hulu.

埃比·阿塔沃迪：Hulu。

That's the one in the US.

美国就是这样的。

Yes.

是的。

It's about a chef.

这是关于一位厨师的。

It's so well done.

做得真好。

Beautiful cinematography, but also, you feel the heat in that kitchen.

美丽的电影摄影，而且，你也能感受到厨房里的热量。

You feel it.

你感觉到了。

Lenny: It's very stressful to watch that show.

莱尼：看那个节目压力很大。

Lenny: Second season's less stressful, at least.

莱尼：至少第二季压力较小。

In my-

在我的-

Ebi Atawodi: Wait.

艾比·阿塔沃迪：等等。

Do you know the season is less stressful because the restaurant is closed?

您知道这个季节压力较小，因为餐厅关门了？

That's beautiful cinematography.

那是美丽的电影摄影。

The pace goes down and it picks up when the restaurant's open again.

节奏放缓，当餐厅重新营业时节奏加快。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

Interestingly, The Bear has been the most recurring recommended show on this podcast recently.

有趣的是，《熊》是最近该播客上最常出现的推荐节目。

Lenny: There's a phase of Last of Us, there's a phase of White Lotus and now it's The Bear.

莱尼：《最后生还者》有一个阶段，《白莲花》有一个阶段，现在是《熊》。

So we'll see what comes next.

所以我们看看接下来会发生什么。

Ebi Atawodi: Damn it.

艾比·阿塔沃迪：该死。

I want to be contrary now.

我现在想要相反。

I'm trying to think of something else.

我正在想别的事情。

Lenny: I've been a huge fan of this new show on HBO called, Scavengers Reign, if folks haven't seen that.

莱尼：如果大家还没有看过的话，我一直是 HBO 这部名为《拾荒者统治》的新剧的超级粉丝。

It's incredible.

太不可思议了。

It's animated and sci-fi ish and it's just like, "Wow." I can't wait to watch more.

它是动画和科幻的，就像，“哇”。我迫不及待地想看更多。

Anyway, that's my answer.

无论如何，这就是我的答案。

It's not about me.

这与我无关。

Let's keep going.

我们继续吧。

What's a favorite interview question that you'd like to ask candidates that you're interviewing?

您最想问正在面试的候选人的面试问题是什么？

Ebi Atawodi: Two questions.

Ebi Atawodi：两个问题。

If they're a people manager, what is your leadership philosophy?

如果他们是职能经理，您的领导理念是什么？

The amount of leaders who have never thought about that is quite scary.

从未考虑过这一点的领导人数量相当可怕。

And if you're just pure product chops, tell me your favorite product, product you're most passionate about, and why.

如果您只是纯粹的产品爱好者，请告诉我您最喜欢的产品、您最热衷的产品以及原因。

And I live for the storytelling.

我为讲故事而活。

Do you start with a problem?

你会从一个问题开始吗？

I wake up in the morning.

我早上醒来。

I'm always looking for the mood.

我一直在寻找心情。

Music is a backdrop to my life and I open up Spotify and it just finds exactly what I need to...

音乐是我生活的背景，我打开 Spotify，它恰好找到了我需要的东西……

I've just told you the problem and the solution, right?

我刚才已经告诉你问题和解决方案了，对吧？

So I look for those kind of things.

所以我寻找这类东西。

Then I'll ask, if you could improve it, what would you do?

那我就问，如果你可以改进的话，你会怎么做？

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

That's an awesome one.

那真是太棒了。

What is a favorite product you've recently discovered that you love, whether it's physical or digital?

您最近发现的最喜欢的产品是什么，无论是实体产品还是数字产品？

Ebi Atawodi: There's a product I'm using a lot now, very simplistic.

Ebi Atawodi：有一个我现在经常使用的产品，非常简单。

It's a product called Sleep Cycle.

这是一款名为“睡眠周期”的产品。

It basically allows you set an alarm but a progressive music alarm to wake you up because I don't want that jarring like in the morning.

它基本上允许您设置闹钟，但会使用渐进式音乐闹钟来叫醒您，因为我不希望像早上那样刺耳。

It kind of just gets me there, but it also tracks my sleep using the microphone.

它只是让我到达那里，但它也使用麦克风跟踪我的睡眠。

So it tells me whether I'm coughing or whether I woke up, or I'm snoring if I'm in the wrong position.

因此，它可以告诉我是否在咳嗽、是否醒了，或者如果我的位置错误，我是否在打鼾。

It also shows stats.

它还显示统计数据。

When I'm in Nigeria, I snore less than everybody.

当我在尼日利亚时，我打鼾的次数比其他人都少。

When I'm in certain countries, I snore more than everybody.

当我在某些国家时，我打鼾的次数比其他人都多。

So it's a really cool app.

所以这是一个非常酷的应用程序。

Lenny: It feels like...

莱尼：感觉就像……

We have a Nana to watch our kid.

我们有一个奶奶来照顾我们的孩子。

It's like a camera that's watching him sleep all day and I feel like I need that for me because it tells you when he was woken up, how long he's been sleeping.

它就像一台摄像机，整天监视着他的睡眠，我觉得我需要它，因为它可以告诉你他什么时候醒来，他睡了多长时间。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

It's called Sleep Cycle.

这就是所谓的睡眠周期。

Okay.

好的。

We'll link to that in the show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到该内容。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to or share with friends or find useful just either in your day life or in work?

您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回顾或与朋友分享，或者发现它在日常生活或工作中有用？

Ebi Atawodi: I'm going to pull it up.

Ebi Atawodi：我要把它拉起来。

It's a poem called, Invictus.

这是一首诗，名叫《Invictus》。

And I love this quote because he was going through issues with his leg and was actually going to potentially lose it, and then wrote this quote.

我喜欢这句话，因为他的腿正在经历问题，实际上可能会失去它，然后写下了这句话。

I want to read the last part.

我想读最后一部分。

It's worth reading, looking up.

值得一读，值得一看。

It says, "It matters not how strait the gate, how charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." And the last two lines that, "I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul," is literally my Twitter thing, right?

它说：“无论大门多么狭窄，无论卷轴多么充满惩罚，我都是我命运的主人，我是我灵魂的统帅。”最后两行“我是我命运的主人，我是我灵魂的船长”，这实际上是我的 Twitter 内容，对吧？

Or X.

或者X。

com, whatever we're calling it now.

com，无论我们现在怎么称呼它。

.

。

It's such a powerful reminder of freedom or responsibility.

这是对自由或责任的有力提醒。

Lenny: And also I think, I love...

莱尼：而且我想，我喜欢……

This touches on something you also shared earlier of just agency over your fate.

这涉及到你之前也分享过的关于你命运的代理的事情。

You are responsible.

你有责任。

Even though you may not be responsible for what happened, you're responsible for what you're going to do about it.

即使你可能不对发生的事情负责，但你要对你将采取的行动负责。

And I think that for being a great PM, that's such an important thing.

我认为对于成为一名出色的总理来说，这是非常重要的事情。

It's so easy just to complain and like, "Oh, we don't have our resources.

抱怨和抱怨是很容易的，“哦，我们没有资源。

We keep changing plans.

我们不断改变计划。

We're losing engineers." But the more you feel like you are in control and you're responsible for what's going on, the better things end up going.

我们正在失去工程师。”但你越感觉自己处于掌控之中并对正在发生的事情负责，事情最终会进展得越好。

Lenny: And that's a beautiful way of putting it.

莱尼：这是一个很好的表达方式。

Amazing.

惊人的。

And we'll link to that poem.

我们将链接到那首诗。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

Before we started recording, you told me you'd do DJing on the side or I don't know, maybe full-time.

在我们开始录音之前，你告诉我你会兼职做 DJ，或者我不知道，也许是全职。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I guess, one, where can folks find your DJ sets if you put them out?

我想，第一，如果您将 DJ 设备拿出来，人们可以在哪里找到它们？

And then two, I guess, any advice for someone that wants to start getting into DJ Ness, what could they do to start going down that path to learn how to do it?

然后，我想，对于那些想要开始进入 DJ Ness 的人来说，有什么建议吗？他们可以做些什么来开始沿着这条路学习如何做到这一点？

Ebi Atawodi: It goes back to this, "I'm the master of my fate, I'm a captain of my soul." One thing I love and one of the things that's brought me to YouTube is just a power of what you can learn and learning through YouTube.

Ebi Atawodi：可以追溯到这一点，“我是我命运的主人，我是我灵魂的船长。”我喜欢的一件事，也是让我来到 YouTube 的原因之一，就是通过 YouTube 可以学习和学习的力量。

And so I used to DJ initially, 15 years ago when it was still vinyl and then I quit because I was like, it's either I do design at the time, because I started as an engineer, then I was a designer.

所以我最初是 DJ，15 年前，当时它还是黑胶唱片，然后我退出了，因为我当时想，要么我当时做设计，因为我一开始是一名工程师，然后我是一名设计师。

Either I do design or I do DJing, and I stopped.

我要么做设计，要么做 DJ，然后我就停下来了。

Ebi Atawodi: And then a year ago, my Burning Man Camp was like, we need a DJ.

Ebi Atawodi：一年前，我的火人营就说，我们需要一名 DJ。

So I needed to go DJ at Burning Man.

所以我需要去 Burning Man 做 DJ。

And so I went on YouTube and I just followed all these DJ creators.

于是我就上了 YouTube，关注了所有这些 DJ 创作者。

The game has changed, I will say that.

游戏已经改变了，我会这么说。

And so I have my mixtapes on YouTube.

所以我的混音带放在 YouTube 上。

So if you look for my name, Ebi Atawodi.

所以如果你寻找我的名字，Ebi Atawodi。

My handles, it's always Ebi Atawodi, my name and my surname.

我的手柄，总是 Ebi Atawodi，我的名字和我的姓氏。

You'll see all kinds of videos, but you'll also see my mixtapes and I name each mixtape after a sauce.

你会看到各种各样的视频，但你也会看到我的混音带，我用酱汁命名每个混音带。

So one's called Sriracha, the last one was called Mango Chutney, and there's one coming up soon that I'm calling Jerk.

所以一个叫做是拉差（Sriracha），最后一个叫做芒果酸辣酱，还有一个很快就会出现，我称之为混蛋。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

And then, yeah, I guess is your advice.

然后，是的，我想这是你的建议。

Then just watch YouTube.

然后观看 YouTube 即可。

Go look for people teaching you how to DJ on YouTube and...

去 YouTube 上寻找教你如何打碟的人，然后...

Ebi Atawodi: Go watch people and I cannot underestimate the power of those 10,000 hours to become an expert.

Ebi Atawodi：去观察人们，我不能低估这 10,000 小时成为专家的力量。

So just DJ.

所以只是 DJ。

I got this really cheap controller.

我得到了这个非常便宜的控制器。

It costs me 300 bucks, but you can actually do it on an iPad.

我花了 300 美元，但实际上你可以在 iPad 上完成。

And even when I'm on flights, I'll do a full mix on my iPad with the app.

即使在飞机上，我也会在 iPad 上使用该应用程序进行完整混音。

I use this app called DJ Pro AI, and it's like, I don't know, 30 bucks or something.

我使用这个名为 DJ Pro AI 的应用程序，我不知道，大概是 30 美元之类的。

And I just DJ because I'm training, right?

我只是 DJ 因为我正在训练，对吧？

I'm just training and it's for me.

我只是在训练，这是为了我自己。

Then I'll come home and I'll do it with the actual controller and record it, and put it on YouTube for fun.

然后我会回家用实际的控制器来做并录制它，并将其放在 YouTube 上以供娱乐。

Lenny: So cool.

莱尼：太酷了。

Ebi, I'm in the Ebi fan club.

Ebi，我是 Ebi 粉丝俱乐部的成员。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to follow up on anything and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要跟进任何事情，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Ebi Atawodi: I'm on pretty much every social platform.

Ebi Atawodi：我几乎使用所有社交平台。

My handle is Ebi Atawodi, my name.

我的昵称是 Ebi Atawodi，我的名字。

Work stuff, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, all of it.

工作内容，LinkedIn、Twitter、Instagram，所有这些。

And this is maybe a bigger one.

这可能是一个更大的。

I think we will all be more useful to ourselves if we actually spend a lot more time being a bit more present and mindful.

我认为，如果我们真的花更多的时间活在当下，更加用心，我们都会对自己更有用。

The world will be a better place if people just went into themselves and were a bit more mindful.

如果人们多关注自己并多加留意，世界将会变得更加美好。

I'm very big into meditation, so I think that's why I ask for everyone, be more mindful.

我非常热衷于冥想，所以我想这就是为什么我要求每个人都要更加正念。

Lenny: You're reminding me to breathe.

莱尼：你在提醒我呼吸。

Amazing.

惊人的。

What a beautiful way to end it.

这是多么美好的结束方式啊。

Ebi, thank you so much for being here.

Ebi，非常感谢你来到这里。

Lenny: Bye everyone.

莱尼：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show, @lennyspodcast.com.

您可以找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息，@lennyspodcast.com。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。