How to discover your superpowers, own your story, and unlock personal growth | Donna Lichaw
Donna Lichaw: When superheroes discover what their superpowers actually are, they wreak havoc and they make a mess, and it's uncomfortable.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：当超级英雄发现他们的超能力实际上是什么时，他们会造成严重破坏，弄得一团糟，这让人很不舒服。
And even Superman tries to get rid of his superpowers.
甚至超人也试图摆脱他的超能力。
It's hard to know what you're really great at.
很难知道自己真正擅长什么。
Lenny: How does somebody identify their superpowers, their strengths?
莱尼：一个人如何识别自己的超能力、优势？
Donna Lichaw: Pull your superpowers out of your stories from your past, your present, and then eventually figure out how to apply them and transpose them to your future.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：从你的过去和现在的故事中提取你的超能力，然后最终弄清楚如何应用它们并将它们转移到你的未来。
Lenny: The person's story; this is central to becoming a better leader.
莱尼：这个人的故事；这是成为更好的领导者的核心。
Donna Lichaw: The most effective stories are the ones that we tell ourselves.
Donna Lichaw：最有效的故事是我们告诉自己的故事。
They may or may not be true; our brain doesn't know the difference.
它们可能是真实的，也可能不是。我们的大脑不知道其中的区别。
Once you can really understand that, you may as well leverage it to be that hero.
一旦你真正理解了这一点，你也可以利用它来成为那个英雄。
Lenny: Today my guest is Donna Lichaw.
莱尼：今天我的客人是唐娜·利乔。
Donna is an executive coach, speaker and bestselling author.
唐娜是一位高管教练、演说家和畅销书作家。
She helps founders, CEOs and executive teams level up their leadership skills and scale their impact while staying true to their mission, their purpose and themselves.
她帮助创始人、首席执行官和执行团队提高领导技能并扩大影响力，同时忠于自己的使命、目标和自我。
Donna has worked with leaders at companies like Google, Disney, Twitter, Microsoft and Adobe, and she's also the author of the book, The Leader's Journey, which is what we spend our time on.
唐娜曾与谷歌、迪士尼、推特、微软和 Adobe 等公司的领导者合作过，她也是《领导者之旅》一书的作者，这也是我们花时间研究的书。
Lenny: In our conversation, we talk about why the story that we tell ourselves has so much impact on our success and failure, why knowing your superpowers and also your kryptonite is so important to your career and how to identify these two things, how to reframe your feelings of imposter syndrome and actually use it as an advantage, how to identify your life goals even if you have no idea what they might be, plus a ton of examples from her coaching practice of people unlocking their career using her frameworks and how they went about doing this and so much more.
莱尼：在我们的谈话中，我们谈论为什么我们告诉自己的故事对我们的成功和失败有如此大的影响，为什么了解你的超能力和你的氪石对你的职业如此重要，以及如何识别这两件事，如何重新构建你的冒名顶替综合症的感觉并将其实际用作优势，如何确定你的人生目标，即使你不知道它们可能是什么，再加上她指导人们使用她的框架解锁他们的职业生涯的大量例子以及他们如何去做这以及更多。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢此播客，请不要忘记在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 上订阅并关注此播客。
It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you Donna Lichaw after a short word from our sponsors.
在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了唐娜·利乔 (Donna Lichaw)。
Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by OneSchema, the embeddable CSV importer for SaaS.
Lenny：今天的节目是由 OneSchema 为您带来的，OneSchema 是 SaaS 的嵌入式 CSV 导入器。
Customers always seem to want to give you their data in the messiest possible CSV file, and building a spreadsheet importer becomes a never ending sync for your engineering and support resources.
客户似乎总是希望在最混乱的 CSV 文件中向您提供他们的数据，而构建电子表格导入器将成为您的工程和支持资源的永无休止的同步。
You keep adding features to your spreadsheet importer, the customers keep running into issues; six months later, you're fixing yet another date conversion edge case bug.
您不断向电子表格导入器添加功能，客户不断遇到问题；六个月后，您正在修复另一个日期转换边缘情况错误。
Most tools aren't built for handling messy data, but OneSchema is.
大多数工具并不是为处理杂乱数据而构建的，但 OneSchema 却是。
Companies like Scale AI and Pave are using OneSchema to make it fast and easy to launch delightful spreadsheet import experiences from embeddable CSV import to importing CSVs from an SFTP folder on a recurring basis.
Scale AI 和 Pave 等公司正在使用 OneSchema 快速轻松地推出令人愉悦的电子表格导入体验，从嵌入式 CSV 导入到定期从 SFTP 文件夹导入 CSV。
Spreadsheet import is such an awful experience in so many products.
对于许多产品来说，电子表格导入是一种非常糟糕的体验。
Customers get frustrated by useless messages like Error Online 53 and never end up getting started with your product.
客户会对 Error Online 53 等无用消息感到沮丧，并且永远不会开始使用您的产品。
OneSchema intelligently corrects messy data so that your customers don't have to spend hours in Excel Just to get started with your product.
OneSchema 可以智能地纠正杂乱的数据，这样您的客户就不必在 Excel 上花费数小时来开始使用您的产品。
For listeners of this podcast, OneSchema is offering a $1,000 discount.
OneSchema 为该播客的听众提供 1,000 美元的折扣。
Learn more at oneschema.co/lenny.
如需了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co/lenny。
Lenny: Let me tell you about our product called Sendbird, the all-in-one communications API platform designed for both web and mobile apps.
Lenny：让我向您介绍一下我们的产品 Sendbird，这是一款专为 Web 和移动应用程序设计的一体化通信 API 平台。
In a world saturated with multi-channel communication, product teams are discovering the effectiveness of in-app communication.
在一个充满多渠道沟通的世界中，产品团队正在发现应用内沟通的有效性。
With Sendbird, businesses can elevate their in-app experience with decluttered and branded in-app communication featuring AI powered chatbots, one-way messages, chat, video calls, and live stream capabilities all tailored for commerce, marketing, and top tier support.
借助 Sendbird，企业可以通过整洁且品牌化的应用内通信来提升其应用内体验，其中包括人工智能驱动的聊天机器人、单向消息、聊天、视频通话和直播功能，所有这些功能均专为商业、营销和顶级支持而定制。
Forward-thinking companies such as Hinge, Patreon, Yahoo, Accolade and more use Sendbird to build in-app communication experiences that drive engagement, conversion, and retention.
Hinge、Patreon、Yahoo、Accolade 等具有前瞻性思维的公司使用 Sendbird 构建应用内通信体验，以提高参与度、转化率和保留率。
In-app communication has the highest conversion, highest engagement, and highest satisfaction of any communication channel.
在所有沟通渠道中，应用内沟通具有最高的转化率、最高的参与度和最高的满意度。
And when it comes to investing in this channel, trust Sendbird to take your in-app communication experience to the next level.
当谈到投资这个渠道时，请相信 Sendbird 会将您的应用内通信体验提升到一个新的水平。
Start today with Sendbird's free plan.
从今天开始使用 Sendbird 的免费计划。
And as a listener of Lenny's Podcast, you'll get an additional two months of unlimited usage and access to all premium features including creating your very own generative AI chatbot.
作为 Lenny 播客的听众，您将获得额外两个月的无限制使用和访问所有高级功能的机会，包括创建您自己的生成人工智能聊天机器人。
Visit sendbird.com/lenny to begin your free journey.
访问 sendbird.com/lenny 开始您的免费旅程。
That's sendbird.com/lenny.
那是 sendbird.com/lenny。
Donna, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.
唐娜，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Donna Lichaw: Thanks, Lenny.
唐娜·利乔：谢谢，莱尼。
It's exciting to be here.
来到这里真是令人兴奋。
Lenny: We connected through a former colleague of mine who could not stop raving about how much value she got from working with you.
莱尼：我们通过我的一位前同事建立了联系，她不停地夸赞与你合作让她获得了多少价值。
Also, you have a new book app right here that I have, The Leader's journey, and so I thought it would be awesome to bring you on and share your wisdom with a wider audience.
另外，你这里有一个我拥有的新图书应用程序，《领导者的旅程》，所以我认为让你加入并与更广泛的受众分享你的智慧会很棒。
Donna Lichaw: Love the podcast.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：喜欢播客。
My clients love your stuff and newsletter, everything.
我的客户喜欢你的东西和时事通讯，一切。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
And congrats on the book, by the way.
顺便说一句，祝贺这本书。
Lenny: You actually were a product manager in a previous life.
Lenny：你前世其实是一名产品经理。
You're also a designer in a previous life.
你前世也是一名设计师。
These days you're an executive coach.
这些天你是一名执行教练。
Just briefly, I'm curious what pulled you from product management design and the things you did before this life into executive coaching.
简而言之，我很好奇是什么让您从产品管理设计和您之前所做的事情转向高管教练。
And maybe another way to ask this question is what's your origin story?
也许问这个问题的另一种方式是你的起源故事是什么？
And this is a little foreshadowing to the stuff we're going to be talking about later.
这也为我们稍后要讨论的内容埋下了伏笔。
Donna Lichaw: Actually, it's funny, like all origin stories, there were actually multiple episodes, multiple moments that led me to an epiphany, but the biggest aha moment was when I was working several years ago, almost a decade ago at this point, with an executive team in Silicon Valley.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：实际上，这很有趣，就像所有起源故事一样，实际上有多个情节，多个时刻让我顿悟，但最大的顿悟时刻是几年前，大约十年前的此时，我在硅谷与一个执行团队一起工作。
And we were at a leadership retreat, and we were supposed to...
我们当时正在参加一个领导力静修会，我们应该……
At the time, I was a program on effective product leadership, how to be a great product leader, product executive.
当时，我正在参加一个关于有效产品领导力的项目，如何成为一名出色的产品领导者、产品主管。
And the biggest thing that companies wanted at the time and teams wanted was their teams to be better storytellers.
当时公司和团队最想要的就是他们的团队成为更好的讲故事的人。
And it's still something we hear today, which is, "To be a great product leader or leader in general in any industry is you got to be a great storyteller." And so at the time, I was teaching and facilitating storytelling workshops and exploring that with teams.
今天我们仍然听到这样的话：“要成为任何行业的出色产品领导者或总体领导者，你必须成为一名出色的讲故事的人。”所以当时，我正在教学和主持讲故事研讨会，并与团队一起探索这一点。
And it was a few people on this team specifically who I so appreciate their honesty and candor here, which is what this giant tech company is known for, very blunt people working there.
特别是这个团队中的一些人，我非常欣赏他们的诚实和坦率，这就是这家大型科技公司的出名之处，在那里工作的人们非常直率。
And they pulled me aside halfway through the offsite, and they were just like, "Honestly, storytelling is not going to fix our problems.
他们在场外中途把我拉到一边，他们就像是，“老实说，讲故事并不能解决我们的问题。
This is silly."
这太愚蠢了。”
Donna Lichaw: And what they were able to tell me is that their leaders wanted them to be more effective by having greater influence.
唐娜·利乔：他们告诉我的是，他们的领导希望他们通过拥有更大的影响力来提高效率。
And these are terms that we throw around all the time.
这些是我们一直使用的术语。
Be more influential and be a better leader, whatever that means.
变得更有影响力，成为更好的领导者，无论这意味着什么。
And what was happening on the ground with these executives was that they were all fighting.
这些高管的实际情况是，他们都在互相争斗。
I'd hear, "Oh, the head of engineering is such a jerk," or, "This person won't listen to me," or, "My team is demotivated.
我会听到，“哦，工程主管真是个混蛋”，或者“这个人不听我的”，或者“我的团队没有动力。
And I get it, but they need to step up and work more." And there was just a lot of conflict going on here and there that storytelling wouldn't fix.
我明白，但他们需要加倍努力。”到处都有很多冲突，讲故事是解决不了的。
When that happens, and I talk about this in the book a bunch, no one wants to hear your stories.
当这种情况发生时，我在书中多次谈到这一点，没有人想听你的故事。
You have to actually be able to connect with people and to work with people and feel good as a leader in order to really step up and lead.
你必须真正能够与人沟通、与人合作，并且作为领导者感觉良好，才能真正站出来领导。
I didn't have an answer for this team at the time, and I left this offsite just honestly feeling terrible and not knowing what to do about it except telling them, "I think you got to go work with a coach because this is beyond my pay grade."
当时我对这支球队没有答案，我离开这个场外只是老实说感觉很糟糕，不知道该怎么办，除了告诉他们，“我认为你必须和教练一起工作，因为这超出了我的工资等级。”
Donna Lichaw: But when I left that day, I just couldn't stop thinking about this team because I had a hunch that stories were still a part of something but not what they needed.
Donna Lichaw：但是当我那天离开时，我无法停止思考这个团队，因为我有一种预感，故事仍然是某些东西的一部分，但不是他们所需要的。
Telling stories was not the answer, and so I ended up spending what now is the next decade figuring out, all right, how do you become an effective leader?
讲故事不是答案，所以我最终花了接下来十年的时间来弄清楚，好吧，如何成为一名有效的领导者？
And of course because I can't do anything lightly, once I went down that path, I ended up switching up my entire business.
当然，因为我不能轻易做任何事情，一旦我走上这条路，我最终就改变了我的整个业务。
And now that's all I do is help people be better, more effective, confident leaders who really make the impact that they want to make.
现在我所做的就是帮助人们成为更好、更有效、更自信的领导者，真正产生他们想要产生的影响。
Lenny: Along those same lines, what's interesting is you actually found that this idea of storytelling was actually much more effective in your coaching practice.
莱尼：沿着同样的思路，有趣的是你实际上发现这种讲故事的想法在你的教练实践中实际上更有效。
Instead of helping them figure out the story of the product, it's the story of the person.
这不是帮助他们弄清楚产品的故事，而是人的故事。
And so transitioning into the meat of your approach to coaching, I think you call it story-driven leadership.
因此，转变为你的教练方法的核心，我认为你称之为故事驱动的领导力。
Essentially, your finding is that story and the person's story is extremely important and powerful in helping them level up as a leader and also seeing them as the hero of their story.
从本质上讲，您的发现是这个故事和这个人的故事对于帮助他们提升领导者水平以及将他们视为故事中的英雄来说非常重要和强大。
I guess just with that foundation, can you just talk about why that is so powerful, the idea of figuring out your own story and why you need to be the hero of your own story and just what all this means?
我想有了这个基础，你能谈谈为什么它如此强大，弄清楚你自己的故事的想法，为什么你需要成为自己故事的英雄，以及这一切意味着什么？
Donna Lichaw: We all as humans want to be the hero of our own story.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：作为人类，我们都想成为自己故事的英雄。
It's how we live our lives, it's how we make choices, it's how we understand the world around us, and it's how we communicate back to the world.
这是我们如何生活，如何做出选择，如何理解周围的世界，以及如何与世界沟通。
With leadership, it's much the same, which is we have a mission that we want to accomplish.
对于领导力来说，情况大致相同，那就是我们有一个想要完成的使命。
No matter how big or small, it's something; we're driven to do something.
不管大小，都是有的；我们被驱使去做某事。
If you're a leader, you want to be a leader.
如果你是领导者，你就想成为领导者。
You have to be taking yourself and you have to be taking people somewhere.
你必须带你自己，你必须带人们去某个地方。
Donna Lichaw: We also have obstacles, so that's a part of any great story.
Donna Lichaw：我们也有障碍，所以这是任何伟大故事的一部分。
There are challenges.
存在挑战。
It shouldn't be easy.
这应该不容易。
It shouldn't be so hard that you fail, that's a tragedy, but there are challenges, and it makes life more exciting.
失败不应该那么困难，那是一场悲剧，但挑战是存在的，它让生活变得更加精彩。
You don't do it alone.
你不是一个人做的。
It's rare that a story just has a single individual.
一个故事很少只有一个人。
It happens, but that's not most of life.
它发生了，但这并不是生活的大部分。
And there are other elements that I ended up uncovering when I looked deeper into what makes the most effective leaders effective, and the biggest thing is stories that we tell people, it's like the tip of the iceberg.
当我更深入地研究什么使最有效的领导者有效时，我最终发现了其他元素，最重要的是我们告诉人们的故事，它就像冰山一角。
And if anything, it even doesn't matter, I've worked with a lot of folks who their teams say, "Stop it with the storytelling.
如果说有什么不同的话，那也没关系，我和很多人一起工作过，他们的团队都说，“别再讲故事了。
Stop talking at us." And they don't want any of that.
别再对我们说话了。”他们不想要这些。
Donna Lichaw: But the most effective stories are the ones that we experience as we live life and that we tell ourselves as well because we have the ability by saying things like, "Oh, I'll never succeed," or, "Oh, she'll never go for it," or, "He's such a jerk." Or whatever the stories are, these are all stories.
唐娜·利乔：但最有效的故事是我们在生活中经历的故事，也是我们告诉自己的故事，因为我们有能力说“哦，我永远不会成功”，或者“哦，她永远不会成功”，或者“他真是个混蛋”。或者无论故事是什么，这些都是故事。
And they may or may not be true, they're usually not true, but our brain doesn't know the difference.
它们可能是真的，也可能不是真的，它们通常不是真的，但我们的大脑不知道其中的区别。
It's the most powerful ability our brain has is to understand and see stories everywhere.
我们的大脑拥有的最强大的能力就是理解和看到无处不在的故事。
And so once you can really understand that, you may as well leverage it to be that hero in your life.
因此，一旦您真正理解了这一点，您也可以利用它来成为您生活中的英雄。
And even as I say it out loud, it sounds so cheesy, but it's true.
即使我大声说出来，这听起来很俗气，但这是事实。
This is neuroscience and psychology.
这是神经科学和心理学。
We just want to be the heroes, and that's what our focus is.
我们只想成为英雄，这就是我们的重点。
Lenny: I want to delve deeper into that idea there.
莱尼：我想更深入地探讨这个想法。
People listening to this might feel like, "Okay, cool, let me think about the story of my life.
听到这个的人可能会觉得，“好吧，酷，让我想想我的人生故事。
This sounds like a fun thing I could do." But I think your point is this is central to becoming a better leader, figuring out the story of you and that changing in your perspective on yourself and giving you more...
这听起来是我能做的一件有趣的事情。”但我认为你的观点是，这是成为一名更好的领导者的核心，了解你的故事，改变你对自己的看法，并给你更多......
Unblocking you I think is a big part of it.
我认为解锁你是其中很重要的一部分。
Can you just talk about more just the power and why this is so important?
您能谈谈更多的力量以及为什么它如此重要吗？
Because it not just like, "Cool, I'll sit around and think about, oh, here's my story.
因为它不仅仅是“酷，我会坐下来思考，哦，这是我的故事。
I was born here, I did this thing." Why is this so important to do?
我出生在这里，我做了这件事。”为什么这样做如此重要？
Donna Lichaw: And it's a little antithetical in a way because it goes against what a lot of us believe, especially if we have I'll say product backgrounds or just business backgrounds or tech backgrounds or anything where we've built things for people.
Donna Lichaw：这在某种程度上有点对立，因为它违背了我们很多人的信念，特别是如果我们有产品背景或只是商业背景或技术背景或任何我们为人们构建产品的背景。
For years, we've had this idea that we build companies in a user-centered way where, all right, build for the customer first and all else will follow.
多年来，我们一直有这样的想法，即我们以以用户为中心的方式建立公司，首先为客户建立公司，其他一切都会随之而来。
And there's some truth to that on the one hand.
一方面，这是有一定道理的。
And I used to think leadership was the same, which is, well, it's not about you as a leader, it's about who are you bringing along on your journey?
我曾经认为领导力是一样的，这不是关于你作为领导者的问题，而是关于你在你的旅程中带着谁？
And how do they need to be heroes?
他们怎样才能成为英雄？
So how do you enable everyone you work with and everyone you want to follow you to join you and feel amazing with it?
那么，如何让与你一起工作的每个人以及你想要追随你的每个人都加入你并感到惊奇呢？
That's the user-centered approach where it's not about you, it's about who you're bringing with you and the impact you want to make.
这是一种以用户为中心的方法，与你无关，而与你带来的人以及你想要产生的影响有关。
Donna Lichaw: But what I learned is that it doesn't work that way.
Donna Lichaw：但我了解到，事实并非如此。
And you need to flip that, which is when you start with you first at the center of the equation, and then I'm going to do...
你需要翻转这一点，也就是说，当你首先从等式的中心开始，然后我要做......
Everything for me is a diagram.
对我来说一切都是图表。
I'm thinking of concentric circles.
我正在考虑同心圆。
Ken Blanchard has a great model for this where you start with you, it's the inner circle, then you are able to lead yourself, then you can lead others.
肯·布兰查德（Ken Blanchard）对此有一个很好的模型，从你自己开始，这是内部圈子，然后你能够领导自己，然后你可以领导别人。
It extends to one-on-one relationships.
它延伸到一对一的关系。
Then once you've got that, you're able to lead groups, teams, and then outward towards the business.
一旦你掌握了这一点，你就能够领导小组、团队，然后再走向业务。
Donna Lichaw: When you figure that out and you come from the inside out, it's much, much more powerful because it's not selfish like I would've thought years ago, but it's purposeful.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：当你弄清楚这一点并且你从内到外，它会变得更加强大，因为它并不像我多年前想象的那样自私，而是有目的的。
You, as human, we all are driven by a mission, by purpose, by a reason for what we do.
作为人类，我们所有人都被使命、目标和我们所做的事情的理由所驱动。
And when we're able to have that power us, it then empowers us to connect with others so that we can bring it to life.
当我们能够拥有这种力量时，它就会使我们能够与他人联系，从而将其变为现实。
And especially in a business context, but this is the case in anything, communities and family, but especially in business.
尤其是在商业环境中，但任何事情、社区和家庭都是如此，尤其是在商业领域。
It has to start with you.
这必须从你开始。
You need fuel from somewhere.
你需要从某个地方获取燃料。
And if it comes from without, it's like an eggshell that's just ready to crack.
如果它来自外部，它就像一个即将破裂的蛋壳。
It's not sustainable if it comes from outside.
如果它来自外部，那么它是不可持续的。
Lenny: Can you give an example of someone you worked with that changed their story and what impact it had on their career to make this even more real?
莱尼：你能举一个与你共事的人改变了他们的故事的例子吗？这对他们的职业生涯产生了怎样的影响，使这一切变得更加真实？
Donna Lichaw: I can think of a CEO I worked with a few years ago who on the outside was so put together.
Donna Lichaw：我能想到几年前与我共事的一位首席执行官，他的外表是如此的团结。
He was the CEO of a billion-dollar company, successful, raised money like no one's business, was able to get people excited about what he was building, join him.
他是一家价值数十亿美元的公司的首席执行官，非常成功，筹集到的资金比任何人都多，能够让人们对他正在建设的东西感到兴奋，加入他。
And when we started working together, he had recently hired members of an executive team that were just superstars from Silicon Valley and just incredible.
当我们开始合作时，他最近聘请了一个管理团队的成员，这些成员都是来自硅谷的超级明星，而且令人难以置信。
And they were so excited to work with him.
他们很高兴与他合作。
He was so excited to work with them as well.
他也很高兴能与他们一起工作。
Donna Lichaw: But on the inside, the story he kept telling himself was he's too nice.
唐娜·利乔：但在内心深处，他一直告诉自己的故事是他太好了。
Nobody listens to him was another story.
没人听他的话又是另一回事了。
"People don't take me seriously," was another story.
“人们不认真对待我，”是另一个故事。
And then there were what I call horror stories.
然后就是我所说的恐怖故事。
This is not a scientific term by any means, but horror stories that he told himself were things like, "We're never going to make it," or, "They're never going to listen to me," or, "I'll never learn to be a real CEO.
这无论如何都不是一个科学术语，而是他告诉自己的恐怖故事，比如“我们永远不会成功”，或者“他们永远不会听我的”，或者“我永远学不会成为一名真正的首席执行官。
And the problem with stories like that is they end up taking over your identity, they shadow and cloud your every day and actions you take and interactions you have with people.
此类故事的问题在于，它们最终会占据你的身份，它们会影响你的日常生活、你采取的行动以及你与人的互动。
And when you focus on them so much, they very well will become true.
当你如此关注它们时，它们很可能会成为现实。
That's one example.
这就是一个例子。
I could tell you a little more about that, what we did about it.
我可以告诉你更多关于这一点，以及我们对此做了什么。
Lenny: Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to ask.
莱尼：是的，这正是我要问的。
Yeah, if you could share what you did to help shift his story, and then also just how do people do this for themselves?
是的，如果你能分享你为帮助改变他的故事所做的事情，那么人们如何为自己做到这一点呢？
Donna Lichaw: Perfect.
唐娜·利乔：完美。
In this case...
在这种情况下...
And this is like everyone I work with.
这就像我一起工作的每个人一样。
And this is absolutely something that everyone listening and everyone in the audience can absolutely do is take a data-driven approach to the stories that you tell yourself.
这绝对是每个听众和每个观众都绝对可以做的事情，就是采用数据驱动的方法来讲述你自己讲的故事。
For example, the story, "I'm too nice," it could be true, it could not be true.
例如，“我太好了”这个故事，可能是真的，也可能不是真的。
How did we get down to the bottom of that?
我们是如何深入了解这个问题的呢？
In this case, what we did is I went out there and talked to his team.
在这种情况下，我们所做的就是我出去与他的团队交谈。
And this is something you can do for yourself as well.
这也是您可以为自己做的事情。
If you're extremely busy, you can have someone else do it for you.
如果你非常忙，你可以让别人帮你做。
And I found out how people actually experienced him and his leadership.
我发现人们是如何体验他和他的领导力的。
And I didn't hear he's too nice, I heard he is so heartfelt and so caring.
而且我没听说他太好了，我听说他很真诚，很贴心。
And that's a really cool thing.
这真是一件很酷的事情。
How rare is that to hear about a CEO, especially a founder?
听说首席执行官，尤其是创始人是多么罕见？
Oftentimes you hear the opposite, which is not really true.
你常常听到相反的说法，这并不是事实。
Usually when founders are not nice people, they're insecurity's at play.
通常，当创始人不是好人时，他们就会缺乏安全感。
But in this case, yeah, people were like, "We love him.
但在这种情况下，是的，人们会说，“我们爱他。
He's wonderful.
他很棒。
That's why he recruited us." And so great, all right, validated and a little debunked.
这就是他招募我们的原因。”这太棒了，好吧，经过验证，但又有点被揭穿。
Really nice, but not too nice.
确实不错，但不是太好。
That was not a problem for anyone.
这对任何人来说都不是问题。
Donna Lichaw: Then we'd hear things like...
Donna Lichaw：然后我们会听到诸如...
Okay, one story he told himself was, "People don't take me seriously.
好吧，他告诉自己的一个故事是：“人们不认真对待我。
They don't listen to me.
他们不听我的。
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
I need to command respect and they need to just do what I say." And I hear this all the time.
我需要赢得尊重，他们需要按照我说的去做。”我经常听到这样的说法。
I'm using this one example, but this could be anyone that I've worked with.
我正在使用这个例子，但这可能是我曾经合作过的任何人。
And what we heard from people instead was it's not that they weren't listening to him, but when you're hiring super senior, whip smart executives to work for you, they don't want to be told what to do, they want to have a grand vision that they're excited about, they want maybe some goals to latch onto and help possibly with a strategy to get there, although probably they can got the strategy all on their own.
相反，我们从人们那里听到的却是，并不是他们没有听他的，而是当你雇用超级高级、聪明的高管为你工作时，他们不想被告知要做什么，他们想要有一个让他们兴奋的宏伟愿景，他们想要一些可以抓住的目标，并可能帮助制定战略来实现这一目标，尽管他们可能可以自己制定战略。
And they want to then show you how they can help you and the business meet your goals and align towards that vision so that you can build the company that you want to build.
然后他们想向您展示他们如何帮助您和企业实现您的目标并朝着这一愿景迈进，以便您可以建立您想要建立的公司。
Donna Lichaw: That story, "No one listens to me," it was the wrong story to be telling.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：那个故事，“没有人听我的”，这是一个错误的故事。
What the actual story was is that people wanted him out of their business and wanted to feel empowered doing their C-level and super senior executive level work.
真实的故事是，人们希望他退出他们的业务，并希望在从事首席级和超级高级管理级别的工作时感到有权力。
"But we don't want him to be absent because when he does that, it doesn't work.
“但我们不希望他缺席，因为当他缺席时，这是行不通的。
And it's very frustrating when he just disappears for two weeks.
当他消失两周后，这真是令人沮丧。
So we need him involved, but want him to give us problems to solve.
所以我们需要他参与，但希望他给我们带来需要解决的问题。
Give us a vision, give us problems to solve and let us do it for you."
给我们一个愿景，给我们解决问题，让我们为您做到。”
Donna Lichaw: And so they were able to write a better ending of that story together.
唐娜·利乔：所以他们能够一起为这个故事写出一个更好的结局。
It was exactly like user research of any kind or customer discovery, which is you find out what could be possible from your customers and then ideally you co-create a better ending together.
这就像任何类型的用户研究或客户发现一样，就是你从你的客户那里找出可能发生的事情，然后理想情况下你们共同创造一个更好的结局。
If you're building products or services, that's how you do it.
如果您正在构建产品或服务，那么您就是这样做的。
If you're a leader, you do it by showing up and helping others do what they need to do in a way that feels good for you and that aligns with how you want to be doing things.
如果你是一名领导者，你会以一种让你感觉良好并且符合你想要做事的方式来帮助他人做他们需要做的事情。
Donna Lichaw: And so this is one example, but I find using real research and data and actually talking to people is most effective.
Donna Lichaw：这只是一个例子，但我发现使用真实的研究和数据并与人们实际交谈是最有效的。
There are other ways to take best guesses, and I'll use the product metaphor again, which is you can try things and experiment and then see how it works and not talk to your users, but you should probably talk to your customers, in other words, your colleagues and everyone who works for you, and really find out what is the true story and what is possible.
还有其他方法可以进行最佳猜测，我将再次使用产品比喻，即您可以尝试一些事情和实验，然后看看它是如何工作的，而不是与您的用户交谈，但您可能应该与您的客户交谈，换句话说，与您的同事和为您工作的每个人交谈，并真正找出真实的故事和可能的情况。
Lenny: There's all these stories that people believe about themselves, and to your point, many of them are not true when you actually look at the data, you talk to your customers, AKA your colleagues.
莱尼：人们相信自己的所有这些故事，就你的观点而言，当你实际查看数据、与你的客户（也就是你的同事）交谈时，其中许多都是不真实的。
I imagine many are actually true or there are feedback you get that is like, "You are not clear enough about stuff," there's things that you actually hear from other people.
我想很多都是真的，或者你得到的反馈就像是“你对事情不够清楚”，有些事情你实际上是从其他人那里听到的。
Does this approach help there as well?
这种方法也有帮助吗？
Or is there a different tactic for something's actually, okay, you are actually too nice.
或者对于某些事情有不同的策略吗？实际上，好吧，你实际上太好了。
It's not just a story in your head?
这不只是你脑子里的故事吗？
Donna Lichaw: Absolutely.
唐娜·利乔：当然。
There are times when the stories that we tell ourselves are true.
有时我们告诉自己的故事是真实的。
And when we go out and find out what's possible, it is something that we're doing that needs to change or isn't working.
当我们出去寻找可能性时，我们正在做的事情需要改变或者不起作用。
And so one example is, and this comes up sometimes as well, one executive who I worked with once kept getting this feedback that she was too quiet.
举个例子，有时也会出现这种情况，一位与我共事的高管曾经不断收到这样的反馈，说她太安静了。
And when we went out and got feedback, it was true.
当我们出去得到反馈时，这是真的。
People were like, "She needs to speak up more." And this is becoming a problem because she was so quiet that her team thought she was not interested in them.
人们说，“她需要多说点话。”这正在成为一个问题，因为她太安静了，以至于她的团队认为她对他们不感兴趣。
And she would just sit back in meetings, not say anything, and they were like, "God, she sucks.
她会在会议上坐下来，什么也不说，而他们会说，“天哪，她太糟糕了。
This is the worst boss ever.
这是有史以来最糟糕的老板。
I don't even want to be at this meeting.
我什至不想参加这个会议。
And why is she here?
她为什么在这里？
Why am I here?" And it really was detrimental to them all working together.
我为什么在这里？”这确实不利于他们所有人的共同努力。
Donna Lichaw: And then she was frustrated because she was always wondering, well, why are they not performing?
唐娜·利乔：然后她很沮丧，因为她总是想知道，为什么他们不表演？
They're not stepping up.
他们没有挺身而出。
And so it was frustrating all along.
所以一直以来都是令人沮丧的。
And it was true, as far as they saw it, her not speaking up was the problem.
确实，在他们看来，她不说话才是问题所在。
But when we got down to the bottom of what was really going on for her and not speaking up at these meetings is she was just listening.
但当我们深入了解她到底发生了什么，并且在这些会议上没有发言时，她只是在倾听。
Her processing style was she had to listen, and then maybe a few hours later she'd have thoughts.
她的处理风格是她必须倾听，然后也许几个小时后她就会有想法。
And so even though the team said, "We do want her to participate," what they really needed to know was it didn't have to do with speaking or not speaking, what they really needed from her was to know that she was listening to them and that she actually heard them and was going to do something about it, and that she was quiet in these meetings, she was not checked out.
因此，尽管团队说，“我们确实希望她参与”，但他们真正需要知道的是，这与说话或不说话无关，他们真正需要从她那里得到的是知道她正在倾听他们的意见，她实际上听到了他们的意见，并且会采取一些行动，而且她在这些会议中很安静，她没有被检查。
And so simple solution for that, she could start trying to yell more and talk over people and be obnoxious, but nobody wants that either, and so she just started communicating with them more about, "Hey, this is my style.
对此的解决方案非常简单，她可以开始尝试更多地大喊大叫，与人交谈并变得令人讨厌，但也没有人想要这样，所以她只是开始与他们更多地沟通，“嘿，这是我的风格。
I'm a little slower.
我有点慢。
I often need a couple hours to really process things.
我经常需要几个小时来真正处理事情。
I'm here, and I want you to know that."
我在这里，我想让你知道这一点。”
Donna Lichaw: And the irony of establishing those lines of communication with your team when they're not getting what they need is that you often end up doing the thing that you've been trying to do but failing to do anyway.
Donna Lichaw：具有讽刺意味的是，当你的团队没有得到他们需要的东西时，与他们建立这些沟通渠道，你往往最终会做你一直试图做但无论如何都失败的事情。
Because she ended up talking more with her team just in communicating with them about her style, and then they started communicating their styles with her and with each other.
因为她最终与她的团队更多地谈论了她的风格，然后他们开始与她和彼此交流他们的风格。
And this is something that, it's not in the book, but you might've heard of this idea of a personal OS that a lot of us like to have, which is, "Hey, these are my work styles.
这是书里没有的东西，但你可能听说过我们很多人都喜欢拥有的个人操作系统的想法，那就是，“嘿，这些是我的工作风格。
This is how I process, this is how I do things.
这就是我的处理方式，这就是我做事的方式。
These are great ways to work with me, and here's how I'd love to work with you." And they ended up doing a lot of that, and worked out really well.
这些都是与我合作的好方法，这就是我希望与您合作的方式。”他们最终做了很多这样的事情，而且效果非常好。
But it was true, she was not speaking up, and it was having a detrimental effect.
但事实是，她没有说出来，这产生了有害的影响。
But the answer was not talking more, it actually was listening more and just having a better relationship with people.
但答案并不是多说，而是多听，与人建立更好的关系。
Lenny: That's an awesome example.
莱尼：这是一个很棒的例子。
By the way, on the personal OS, an another term for that I've heard is README, like your own personal README file.
顺便说一句，在个人操作系统上，我听说过的另一个术语是自述文件，就像您自己的个人自述文件一样。
Lenny: Yeah, isn't that great?
莱尼：是的，那不是很好吗？
It sounds like there's these two buckets, it's probably more buckets, but one is a story of yourself that is not true that you can disprove by looking at data, talking to people, and then there's almost a story people have about you that they don't quite get what's going on.
听起来好像有这两个桶，也可能有更多桶，但一个是你自己的故事，这不是真的，你可以通过查看数据、与人交谈来反驳，然后人们几乎有一个关于你的故事，他们不太明白发生了什么。
And then you could change their story by communicating, "Here's what I'm really doing.
然后你可以通过交流来改变他们的故事：“这就是我真正在做的事情。
I'm actually just listening and I'm actually really deeply paying attention."
我实际上只是在听，而且我真的很认真地关注。”
Lenny: If we pick an example, say imposter syndrome, which comes up a lot on this podcast where people feel like, "I am an imposter in this role.
莱尼：如果我们举个例子，比如冒名顶替综合症，这种情况在这个播客中经常出现，人们会觉得，“我是这个角色的冒名顶替者。
I have no idea what I'm doing.
我不知道我在做什么。
It's all going to crumble if I mess up." Say someone has that in their head, everyone can tell I am an imposter and it'll all crumble.
如果我搞砸了，一切都会崩溃。”假设有人脑子里有这样的想法，每个人都可以说我是冒名顶替者，那么一切都会崩溃。
How would you recommend someone that this is real or not to understand is this a story in my head or is this real?
您如何向某人推荐这是真实的或不理解这是我脑海中的故事还是真实的？
And what do people actually think?
人们到底是怎么想的？
Do you go talk to people?
你去和人说话吗？
How do you recommend people go about that?
您如何建议人们这样做？
Donna Lichaw: Certain stories we tell ourselves are actually quite functional and do not necessarily need to be rewritten.
Donna Lichaw：我们给自己讲的某些故事实际上非常实用，并不一定需要重写。
Imposter syndrome for an example, if you're going around saying, "I feel like I'm an imposter.
以冒名顶替综合症为例，如果你到处说：“我觉得我是一个冒名顶替者。
I can't believe I'm doing this," you can try to fake it till you make it, you can try to...
我不敢相信我正在这样做，”你可以尝试假装它直到你成功，你可以尝试......
I always think of...
我总是想...
I'm totally dating myself here, but Stuart Smalley in Saturday Night Live in the '80s and '90s, he would look in a mirror and do his affirmations and say, "I'm smart, and I'm whatever." And Doug-
我在这里完全是在和自己约会，但是八十年代和九十年代《周六夜现场》中的斯图尔特·斯莫利（Stuart Smalley），他会照着镜子，做出自己的肯定，然后说：“我很聪明，我是什么都行。”还有道格——
Lenny: I'm good enough, I'm strong enough, and gosh darn it, people like me or love me.
莱尼：我足够好，我足够坚强，天哪，人们喜欢我或爱我。
Donna Lichaw: There you go.
唐娜·利乔：就这样。
It's like you could do that, and it's all very mechanical, and there's ways to prop yourself up, but what if you took a counter-intuitive approach and looked at that story, I'm an imposter, and instead asked, "Okay, that's a good story.
就好像你可以做到这一点，而且这一切都非常机械，并且有很多方法可以支撑你自己，但是如果你采取反直觉的方法并查看那个故事，我是一个冒名顶替者，而是问道：“好吧，这是一个好故事。
How is that serving you?" Imposter syndrome, it's something everyone has at one point or another.
这对你来说怎么样？”冒名顶替综合症，每个人都曾有过这样的经历。
When we default to these behaviors of, "Oh God, I'm an imposter.
当我们默认这些行为时，“天哪，我是个冒名顶替者。
Okay," over and over and over again, I know it doesn't feel good, but we default to that because it's serving us in one way, otherwise it wouldn't become a habit.
好吧，”一遍又一遍，我知道这感觉不好，但我们默认这样做，因为它以一种方式为我们服务，否则它不会成为一种习惯。
And I always think of habits as an itch.
我一直认为习惯是一种痒。
If you have an itch, you scratch it, you feel better.
如果你觉得痒，你就抓挠它，你就会感觉好一些。
There's a reason why we scratch itches; it feels better.
我们抓痒是有原因的；感觉好多了。
If you do it too much, it hurts.
如果做得太多，就会很痛。
Donna Lichaw: And something like that, telling detrimental stories, have that impact.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：类似的事情，讲述有害的故事，就会产生这种影响。
But when you can intercept them at just the right time and say, "Okay, what if that is true?
但是当你可以在正确的时间拦截他们并说：“好吧，如果那是真的怎么办？
How does it serve me to constantly say, 'I'm an imposter whenever anything gets hard?'" One co-founder I worked with a while back, she did this whenever things got too hard.
我经常说：‘每当事情变得困难时，我就是个冒名顶替者？’”这对我有什么帮助？”我不久前曾与一位联合创始人合作过，每当事情变得太困难时，她就会这样做。
And then she was convinced, and founders have this a lot, "Who am I to be running this company?
然后她就确信了，创始人也经常这样说：“我是谁来经营这家公司？
And what am I doing here?
我在这里做什么？
And oh my God, I can't be doing this." But when we looked at how that habit of calling herself an imposter served her, what she realized is that every time it kicked in, she worked harder.
天哪，我不能这样做。”但当我们看到这种称自己为冒名顶替者的习惯对她有何帮助时，她意识到，每当这种习惯开始出现时，她就会更加努力地工作。
And it just meant she was hitting some kind of a growth edge.
这只是意味着她正在达到某种增长边缘。
When she would jump into action, she would learn something new, she would read 20 books, she would go out, take a class, she would listen to podcasts and on and on.
当她开始行动时，她会学习新东西，她会读 20 本书，她会出去，上课，她会听播客等等。
And she would get better at this new thing, it was fun for her, and then she would feel less like an imposter over time, so it was a very functional thing for her.
她会在这个新事物上做得更好，这对她来说很有趣，然后随着时间的推移，她会觉得自己不再像个冒名顶替者，所以这对她来说是一件非常实用的事情。
Donna Lichaw: The problem is when she did that too much...
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：问题是当她做得太多时......
I work with a lot of women who this is the case for.
我和很多女性一起工作都是这种情况。
She often did way much work.
她经常做很多工作。
And so she took on emotional labor for other people.
因此，她为其他人承担了情感劳动。
She did 10 times as much work as she needed to do, actual work.
她所做的工作量是她需要做的实际工作量的 10 倍。
In her role, she was playing COO and CFO and CEO.
在她的角色中，她扮演首席运营官、首席财务官和首席执行官。
And it's just like she didn't need to be doing all of that.
就好像她不需要做所有这些。
And so on a spectrum of it's actually helpful, give yourself a pat on the back for jumping into imposter zone every time things get hard to the other side of the spectrum, which is, okay, but when it's too much, you burn out.
因此，在一定范围内，它实际上是有帮助的，每当事情变得困难到频谱的另一边时，就跳入冒名顶替者区域，拍拍自己的背，这是好的，但是当它太多时，你就会精疲力尽。
You're doing way too much work for other people.
你为别人做了太多的工作。
You're falling into these unfortunate conventional gender roles that doing extra work you don't need to, so you want to find a happy medium.
你正在陷入这些不幸的传统性别角色，做你不需要的额外工作，所以你想找到一个快乐的媒介。
But I think that the trick is, with imposter syndrome, to not deny it, to embrace it as much as you can, but not embrace it so much that it ends up holding you back.
但我认为，对于冒名顶替综合症，关键在于不要否认它，尽可能地拥抱它，但不要过于拥抱它，以免最终阻碍你。
Yes, functional.
是的，实用。
Even things that we think are bad for us are actually good.
即使我们认为对我们不利的事情实际上也是好事。
Lenny: I love that advice.
莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。
It's so much easier to just, okay, yep, it's true.
只是，好吧，是的，这是真的，要容易得多。
Maybe I am an imposter, but here's how he can maybe help me while I feel this.
也许我是个冒名顶替者，但当我有这种感觉时，他也许可以帮助我。
And this actually reminds me of another coach who did a guest post on my newsletter a long time ago, and her advice is, "Yeah, you probably are an imposter.
这实际上让我想起了另一位教练，她很久以前在我的时事通讯上发表了一篇客座文章，她的建议是，“是的，你可能是一个冒名顶替者。
You're in a role you've never done before.
你正在扮演一个以前从未扮演过的角色。
And that's pretty normal, and that's okay.
这很正常，没关系。
And here's how you should approach it."
这就是你应该如何处理它。”
Donna Lichaw: Yeah.
唐娜·利乔：是的。
Especially in tech where half of the roles we have are all made up.
尤其是在科技领域，我们一半的角色都是由人组成的。
You're probably the first person ever to have your role anyway, whether you founded the company or you're doing something else at your company.
不管怎样，你可能是第一个担任这个职位的人，无论你是公司的创始人还是在公司做其他事情。
Yeah, it's a great thing.
是的，这是一件很棒的事情。
Embrace it.
拥抱它。
Lenny: The takeaway advice there is essentially ask yourself, "Okay, this may be how I feel.
莱尼：外卖建议本质上是问自己，“好吧，这可能就是我的感受。
How is it helping me?" And don't try to push it down and convince yourself that you're not necessarily an imposter, but how is this feeling helping you?
它对我有什么帮助？”不要试图压低它并说服自己你不一定是冒名顶替者，但这种感觉对你有什么帮助？
Donna Lichaw: How is it serving you?
Donna Lichaw：您觉得怎么样？
I have a whole chapter on kryptonite in the book, which is...
我书里有一整章是关于氪石的，那就是……
It's what I call kryptonite.
这就是我所说的氪石。
And I use superhero metaphors pretty heavily in the book because I'm I guess a grown child and I like comics and superhero stories.
我在书中大量使用超级英雄的隐喻，因为我想我是一个成年孩子，而且我喜欢漫画和超级英雄故事。
And so are my clients, so I think because I work in tech, I get to do this.
我的客户也是如此，所以我认为因为我从事科技工作，所以我可以这样做。
But I liken it to kryptonite, which is the things that we think harm us, actually when we look at how they serve us, they can serve a function.
但我把它比作氪石，我们认为它会伤害我们，实际上当我们看看它们如何为我们服务时，它们可以发挥作用。
Like kryptonite for Superman, it's how people are able to operate on him.
就像超人的氪石一样，人们可以通过它对他进行手术。
They use a little kryptonite so they could get in there and do some surgery and then get out.
他们使用一点氪石，这样他们就可以进入那里并进行一些手术，然后离开。
It serves a function, but when it's too much that can be detrimental.
它有一定的作用，但如果过多的话，就会产生损害。
Yeah, how does it serve you?
是的，它对你有什么帮助？
It's a question that it's so important and so, so powerful.
这是一个如此重要、如此强大的问题。
Lenny: What are some examples of other types of kryptonite that you find leaders have?
莱尼：您发现领导者拥有哪些其他类型的氪石？
And how do you find that it ends up maybe serving them and being useful?
你如何发现它最终可能为他们服务并且有用？
Donna Lichaw: They're the kinds that you should avoid and can avoid.
Donna Lichaw：它们是您应该避免并且可以避免的类型。
For example, scheduling things is my kryptonite, but I do meetings for a living.
例如，安排事情是我的克星，但我以开会为生。
And I love being in meetings, strangely, and so not scheduling is not an option, but there are ways around it.
奇怪的是，我喜欢参加会议，所以不安排会议不是一个选择，但有办法解决它。
I automate everything.
我把一切都自动化了。
And some people hire assistants.
还有一些人聘请助理。
And there are ways to do it.
并且有很多方法可以做到这一点。
That's the kind that you're better off avoiding.
这种情况你最好避免。
There's nothing that serves me about having to schedule things or my inability to schedule things properly.
必须安排事情或无法正确安排事情对我来说没有任何帮助。
How is that serving me?
这对我来说怎么样？
You know what?
你知道吗？
I don't care.
我不在乎。
It doesn't matter.
没关系。
Just the kind that you need to avoid.
这正是您需要避免的类型。
Donna Lichaw: Or you could say toxic people or people who just don't add anything to your life.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：或者你可以说有毒的人或那些不会给你的生活增添任何东西的人。
There are kinds of just like, "All right, done.
有一些类似的说法，“好吧，完成了。
Moving on." But then there are the kinds that it's usually on the inner kryptonite side where you can look at, "Okay, well how does this serve me?" And so wide swath of people example is dyslexia.
继续前进。”但也有一些通常位于氪星内部的一侧，你可以看到，“好吧，这对我有什么用呢？”很多人的例子就是阅读障碍。
I work with a lot of founders, CEOs and senior executives who are dyslexic.
我与许多患有阅读障碍的创始人、首席执行官和高级管理人员一起工作。
It's very, very, very common, especially for CEOs.
这非常、非常、非常常见，尤其是对于首席执行官而言。
You could say, "Well, that's kryptonite, having to read things or do things with text." And it can feel like that to a lot of people, yet when you look at the science of something like dyslexia, it's not so much an impairment, it just means that your brain is operating at a different level in a different way than most people.
你可以说，“嗯，这就是氪石，必须用文本来阅读或做事。”很多人都会有这样的感觉，但当你审视阅读障碍之类的科学时，你会发现这并不是一种损害，它只是意味着你的大脑以与大多数人不同的方式在不同的水平上运作。
Donna Lichaw: Same thing with ADHD.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：多动症也是如此。
And you could extend it to autism and ton of other things as well.
你还可以将其扩展到自闭症和许多其他疾病。
But when you're dyslexic, you're thinking spatially, you're thinking big, you're thinking visually, you're not...
但是当你有诵读困难时，你会进行空间思考，你会思考大问题，你会进行视觉思考，你不会......
Yes, you mix up letters or you're struggling with big blocks of text; that's fine.
是的，您混淆了字母或者您正在努力处理大块文本；没关系。
If you're founding a company, you're not in documents all day long anyway probably, so that ability to think big and spatially and visually is probably how you created your company in the first place, or if you work at a large corporation, how you catapulted into executive leadership that way because you're a visionary and you do all these things.
如果你要创办一家公司，你可能不会整天都在文件中，所以，宏观、空间和视觉思考的能力可能是你创建公司的首要方式，或者如果你在一家大公司工作，你是如何以这种方式一跃成为高管领导层的，因为你是一个有远见的人，你做了所有这些事情。
Donna Lichaw: I think kryptonite, the inner kind of kryptonite, that's how I like to think of it, which is you think it makes you weak, but when you can look at how it serves you, it's often not the case.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：我认为氪石，氪石的内在类型，这就是我喜欢的想法，你认为它会让你变得虚弱，但当你看看它如何为你服务时，情况往往并非如此。
It could be something that is often classified as a disorder like dyslexia, ADHD, and it could be quirks like the one earlier, "I'm too quiet." Well, no, she was just a really good listener.
它可能是一种通常被归类为阅读障碍、多动症等疾病的疾病，也可能是像之前的“我太安静了”这样的怪癖。嗯，不，她只是一个很好的倾听者。
She just didn't realize that she had a poker face on when she was listening.
她只是没有意识到自己听的时候脸上是一张扑克脸。
And no one knew she was listening.
没有人知道她在听。
Everything, just look at how it serves you.
一切，只要看看它如何为你服务。
It's the kind you need to avoid, the kind of kryptonite that you need to really look at and embrace.
这是你需要避免的那种，你需要真正审视和拥抱的那种氪石。
And once you embrace it, just like with the superheroes, it becomes ideally something that's useful in small doses like Superman, or it could be something more like Hulk, which is you could say his kryptonite is his anger, but that's also his superpower.
一旦你接受它，就像超级英雄一样，它理想地会变成像超人一样小剂量有用的东西，或者它可能更像绿巨人，你可以说他的氪石是他的愤怒，但这也是他的超能力。
And he can't get rid of it, or if he does, he becomes Mark Ruffalo being really boring like in the latest Avenger movies and he is all meditating.
他无法摆脱它，或者如果他摆脱了它，他就会变成马克·鲁法洛，就像最新的复仇者电影中那样非常无聊，而且他一直在冥想。
Donna Lichaw: Yeah, I don't know what the point of that is.
Donna Lichaw：是的，我不知道这有什么意义。
Yeah, that's how I see Kryptonite.
是的，这就是我对氪石的看法。
It's actually a really, really amazing, amazing tool that we can all leverage.
它实际上是一个非常非常令人惊奇的工具，我们都可以利用。
Lenny: The flip side of kryptonite is a superpower.
莱尼：氪石的另一面是超能力。
And I definitely want to spend time here.
我绝对想在这里度过时光。
I'm a big believer in this, you are too, of just how important it is to lean into your strengths and identify what you're better at than most people and use that as your way of getting ahead versus trying to, say, just remove these kryptonite/things you're not good.
我非常相信这一点，你也一样，相信发挥自己的优势并确定自己比大多数人更擅长什么并以此作为取得进步的方式是多么重要，而不是试图消除这些氪石/你不擅长的东西。
Lenny: For me, it was really a big deal.
莱尼：对我来说，这确实是一件大事。
I actually worked with a coach while I was working.
事实上，我在工作的时候就和一位教练一起工作过。
And this was in the biggest step changes for me is just realizing I'll never be amazing at X, Y, Z, but it turns out I'm really good at these things, and so let me just use those things to achieve the things I'm trying to do.
对我来说，这是最大的一步改变，我意识到我永远不会在 X、Y、Z 方面表现出色，但事实证明我真的很擅长这些事情，所以让我用这些东西来实现我想做的事情。
As one example, I'm never going to be an amazing public speaker.
举个例子，我永远不会成为一名出色的公共演讲者。
I hate that stuff.
我讨厌那些东西。
Even though I do this podcast, it's not my strength.
尽管我做这个播客，但这不是我的强项。
And it turns out I much prefer writing and sitting there and thinking, and that's what led to this newsletter.
事实证明，我更喜欢写作和坐在那里思考，这就是我写这篇时事通讯的原因。
I started doing the thing that was pulling me and was easier for me and ends up being really successful because that's another way of achieving the same thing, it turns out.
我开始做那些吸引我的事情，对我来说更容易，最终取得了真正的成功，因为事实证明，这是实现同一件事的另一种方式。
Here's the question.
这是问题所在。
Why is it so important to think about your superpowers?
为什么思考你的超能力如此重要？
How do you identify your superpowers?
你如何识别自己的超能力？
And just how do you think about this area?
您如何看待这个领域？
Donna Lichaw: On the one hand, there's so many studies that show that when we play to our strengths, we're much more effective than when we try to fix what's broken.
Donna Lichaw：一方面，有很多研究表明，当我们发挥自己的优势时，我们会比尝试修复问题时更有效。
It's a waste of energy to fix what's broken for the most part.
修复大部分损坏的部分是浪费精力。
But when you can amplify your strengths and figure out how to use them productively so that you can fulfill your purpose, meet your goals, do what you need to do in life and bring others along with you, it's just that you're such a bigger impact that way.
但是，当你能够放大你的优势并弄清楚如何有效地利用它们，以便你能够实现你的目的、实现你的目标、做你生活中需要做的事情并带动其他人与你一起时，你就会产生更大的影响力。
Donna Lichaw: I'm going to give you an example.
Donna Lichaw：我给你举个例子。
And it's funny that we're here talking about this because a while back, I remember we first met over email.
有趣的是，我们在这里谈论这个，因为不久前，我记得我们第一次见面是通过电子邮件。
I was thinking of resurrecting my newsletter.
我正在考虑恢复我的时事通讯。
And I hate writing.
而且我讨厌写作。
And I've written two books; I hate writing.
我已经写了两本书；我讨厌写作。
But more than hating writing, I hate email.
但我不仅讨厌写作，还讨厌电子邮件。
I hate sending emails, reading emails.
我讨厌发送电子邮件、阅读电子邮件。
I really struggle with it.
我真的很挣扎。
But yet I have this newsletter that people love and people were begging me to send more of over the years.
但我仍然有这份人们喜欢的时事通讯，多年来人们恳求我发送更多的时事通讯。
And at the time, I was like, "Oh, maybe I'll dusted off." And I remember emailing you about this and asking if we could have a call because I had questions about newsletters.
当时，我想，“哦，也许我会掸掉灰尘。”我记得我给你发了一封电子邮件询问此事，并询问我们是否可以打电话，因为我对时事通讯有疑问。
And your answer was, "No, no, no, no, no. No calls."
你的回答是：“不，不，不，不，不。不准打电话。”
Lenny: I don't know if it was that.
莱尼：我不知道是不是那样。
I don't know if it was that.
我不知道是不是那个。
Lenny: It was just I prefer to avoid calls whenever I can.
莱尼：只是我更喜欢尽可能避免打电话。
Donna Lichaw: Yes, there you go, "Prefer to avoid calls whenever I can." It was very polite, right?
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：是的，就是这样，“尽可能避免打电话。”很有礼貌，对吧？
Donna Lichaw: But it was, "Happy to answer any questions you have.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：但是，“很高兴回答您的任何问题。
Can you shoot me an email?" I don't remember if this was my answer, but I think my answer to me was, "No, no emails.
你能给我发一封电子邮件吗？”我不记得这是否是我的回答，但我想我的回答是：“不，没有电子邮件。
I can't give you my questions written.
我不能把我的问题写下来给你。
Maybe if I can record them for you, I'll think about it." And I think in the end, the irony is I ended up resurrecting the email list a while later, and now I do send occasional newsletters that I actually like writing and people enjoy.
也许如果我能为你录下来，我会考虑一下。”我认为最后，具有讽刺意味的是，不久之后我最终恢复了电子邮件列表，现在我确实偶尔发送我真正喜欢写作并且人们喜欢的时事通讯。
But I knew, okay, it'll take me like five hours to write down my questions for you over email; and I knew that was not right for me.
但我知道，好吧，我需要大约五个小时才能通过电子邮件写下我的问题；我知道这不适合我。
You knew having a meeting was not right for you.
您知道开会不适合您。
That was fine.
那很好。
That was great because in the end, it was easier for me to write an entire book than to write that email to you.
这太棒了，因为最终对我来说写整本书比给你写那封电子邮件更容易。
It probably was faster to write my book than it would've been to write the email to you.
写我的书可能比给你写电子邮件要快。
And in the end, here we were having that first conversation, which is really fun, but it's in a way that feels good to both of us.
最后，我们在这里进行了第一次对话，这真的很有趣，而且对我们双方来说都感觉很好。
Play to your strengths and good things happen.
发挥你的优势，好事就会发生。
I could get better at writing emails, but you know what?
我可以在写电子邮件方面做得更好，但你知道吗？
Not worth my time.
不值得我花时间。
And you could have more meetings, and not worth your time either.
而且你可以召开更多的会议，但也不值得你花时间。
Lenny: Let me tell you about a product called Sprig.
Lenny：让我告诉你一个叫做 Sprig 的产品。
Next-gen product teams like Figma and Notion rely on Sprig to build products that people love.
Figma 和 Notion 等下一代产品团队依靠 Sprig 来构建人们喜爱的产品。
Sprig is an AI-powered platform that enables you to collect relevant product experience insights from the right users so you can make product decisions quickly and confidently.
Sprig 是一个人工智能驱动的平台，使您能够从正确的用户那里收集相关的产品体验见解，以便您可以快速、自信地做出产品决策。
Lenny: Here's how it works.
莱尼：这就是它的工作原理。
It all starts with Sprig's precise targeting, which allows you to trigger in-app studies based on users' characteristics and actions taken in product.
这一切都始于 Sprig 的精确定位，它允许您根据用户的特征和在产品中采取的操作触发应用内研究。
Then Sprig's AI is layered on top of all studies to instantly surface your product's biggest learnings.
然后，Sprig 的人工智能会叠加在所有研究之上，以立即呈现您产品的最大学习成果。
Sprig's surveys enables you to target specific to get relevant and timely feedback.
Sprig 的调查使您能够有针对性地获得相关且及时的反馈。
Sprig Replays enables you to capture targeted session clips to see your product experience firsthand.
Sprig Replays 使您能够捕获目标会话剪辑，以第一时间了解您的产品体验。
Sprig's AI is a game changer for product teams.
Sprig 的 AI 改变了产品团队的游戏规则。
They're the only platform with product-level AI, meaning it analyzes data across all of your studies to centralize the most important product opportunities, trends, and correlations in one real-time feed.
它们是唯一具有产品级人工智能的平台，这意味着它会分析您所有研究的数据，以将最重要的产品机会、趋势和相关性集中在一个实时源中。
Visit sprig.com/lenny to learn more and get 10% off.
请访问 sprig.com/lenny 了解更多信息并享受 10% 折扣。
That's S-P-R-I-G.com/lenny.
那是 S-P-R-I-G.com/lenny。
Is there an example you can think of someone that you work with where identifying their strength and then leaning into that made a big impact on them?
您是否能想到一个与您共事的人的例子，该人发现了他们的优势，然后倾向于对他们产生了重大影响？
Donna Lichaw: Gosh, I see this all the time.
Donna Lichaw：天哪，我一直看到这种情况。
I especially see this with founder CEOs because there's this very heavy misconception that when you are again catapulted into some kind of senior leadership position, that you're supposed to be a certain way and you're supposed to be loud and opinionated and controlling and tell people what to do, but I've worked with some amazing CEOs who are just incredible listeners instead.
我尤其在创始人首席执行官身上看到了这一点，因为有一种非常严重的误解，即当你再次晋升到某种高级领导职位时，你应该以某种方式行事，你应该大声说话、固执己见、控制并告诉人们该做什么，但我曾与一些出色的首席执行官合作过，他们只是令人难以置信的倾听者。
And it's the same thing, which is they embrace what works for them and they don't try to be what they're supposed to be.
这是同一件事，他们拥抱对他们有用的东西，而不是试图成为他们应该成为的人。
Well, they have to learn that.
好吧，他们必须学习这一点。
Donna Lichaw: Bob Iger as an example from Disney.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：以迪士尼的鲍勃·艾格（Bob Iger）为例。
I haven't met him.
我没见过他。
I know people who've met him.
我认识见过他的人。
And I just always hear, "Such a sweet person.
我总是听到，“真是个可爱的人。
So nice and such a great listener." You can control the world and do it in your way.
非常好，非常好的倾听者。”你可以控制世界并以你的方式做事。
And so yeah, I see this all the time, any of your strengths, they operate again on that continuum with kryptonite.
所以，是的，我一直看到这一点，你的任何优势，他们再次在氪石的连续体上发挥作用。
But if you can figure out how to leverage them and really be comfortable with them, cool things happen, cool things happen.
但如果你能弄清楚如何利用它们并真正适应它们，很酷的事情就会发生，很酷的事情就会发生。
Lenny: The big unlock for me was realizing that you can achieve all the same things using different strengths.
莱尼：对我来说最大的解锁是意识到你可以使用不同的优势实现所有相同的事情。
You can be an amazing CEO being very loud, charismatic visionary.
如果你声音响亮、富有魅力、富有远见，你可以成为一位了不起的首席执行官。
You could also be great CEO, being very quiet and thoughtful and deliberative and working in small teams versus like, "Hey everyone, listen to what I have to say."
你也可以成为出色的首席执行官，非常安静、深思熟虑、深思熟虑，在小团队中工作，而不是“嘿，大家，听听我要说的话。”
Lenny: Okay, how does somebody identify their superpowers, their strengths?
莱尼：好吧，一个人如何识别自己的超能力、优势？
I know there's some tests they could take.
我知道他们可以接受一些测试。
Very tactically, what do you recommend people do?
从战术上讲，你建议人们做什么？
What do you send them to figure out here's what I'm really good at?
你要向他们发送什么信息才能让他们知道我真正擅长的是什么？
Donna Lichaw: There are tests out there.
Donna Lichaw：有一些测试。
I have personally not found them as helpful, but some people love them.
我个人认为它们没有帮助，但有些人喜欢它们。
And so if you've ever taken a StrengthsFinder test or there's a V-I-A character strengths test I think it's called.
因此，如果您曾经参加过 StrengthsFinder 测试，或者有一个 V-I-A 性格优势测试，我认为这就是所谓的。
Those are the two most popular.
这是最受欢迎的两个。
And you can just take a multiple choice quiz and it'll tell you what your top five strengths or characteristics are.
您只需参加多项选择测验，它就会告诉您您的前五项优势或特征是什么。
And I don't find it useful because if I just get a list of things, I will never remember what the list is.
我觉得它没有用，因为如果我只得到一个列表，我永远不会记得列表是什么。
And it also has no context for me, and so what I do and what I find works better for my clients as well is to pull your superpowers out of your stories from your past and your present, and then eventually figure out how to apply them and transpose them to your future.
而且它对我来说也没有背景，所以我所做的以及我发现对我的客户更有效的就是从你的过去和现在的故事中提取你的超能力，然后最终弄清楚如何应用它们并将它们转移到你的未来。
Donna Lichaw: But if you look at your peak experiences from life, from work, but especially from life...
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：但是如果你看看你的生活、工作、尤其是生活中的巅峰经历......
Because even if you want to be a better leader in a work context, there's a difference between work and life.
因为即使您想在工作环境中成为更好的领导者，工作和生活之间也存在差异。
It's very blurry, so you're better off not separating them.
它非常模糊，所以你最好不要将它们分开。
But if you look at your peak experiences from your past, I would go back to when you were a kid, what's something you did when you were a kid, like a project you worked on or something you were a part of that completely, totally lit you up and that you were so excited about?
但如果你回顾一下你过去的巅峰经历，我会回到你小时候，你小时候做过什么事情，比如你参与的一个项目，或者你参与的某个项目，完全让你兴奋不已，让你感到如此兴奋？
And I would then look at something from your more recent past.
然后我会看看你最近的一些事情。
What's a project or something you worked on in the last maybe 10 years that just jazzed you up and you were just so excited to do?
在过去大约 10 年里，有什么项目或事情让你兴奋不已，让你兴奋不已？
And then I would also look at just how did you get into your line of work, the thing that you're doing now?
然后我也会看看你是如何进入你现在正在做的工作的？
What's that meandering path?
那条蜿蜒的小路是什么？
Donna Lichaw: And when you can look at these three stories as moments in time and you can lay them on top of one another, what you see at key moments is your superpowers popping through.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：当你可以将这三个故事视为时间点并将它们放在一起时，你会在关键时刻看到你的超能力突然出现。
And they're the things that empower you to make an impact, they are the things that do make an impact.
它们能够让你产生影响，它们确实能够产生影响。
And so an example I'll give you is one of...
所以我给你举的一个例子是......
God, another executive I worked with a while ago, she kept being told in this dreaded 360 reviews at her company, they were obsessed with...
天啊，我不久前共事过的另一位高管，在她公司可怕的 360 条评论中，她不断被告知，他们痴迷于……
This is another big, big tech company.
这是另一家非常非常大的科技公司。
They were obsessed with superpowers at this company.
他们对这家公司的超能力着迷。
And so she would get these 260 reviews from her team telling her what her superpowers were.
因此，她会从她的团队那里得到 260 条评论，告诉她她的超能力是什么。
And so they kept saying, "Attention to detail." And she was like, "What on earth?
所以他们一直说：“注意细节。”她说：“到底是什么？
I hate details.
我讨厌细节。
That's my kryptonite.
那是我的氪石。
I cannot deal with details," yet they kept telling her, "Wow, you're so great.
我无法处理细节，”但他们不断告诉她，“哇，你太棒了。
You have this attention to detail." And then they kept giving her more detail-oriented stuff to do.
你对细节如此关注。”然后他们不断给她更多注重细节的事情去做。
And she's like, "I should be doing strategy and high level stuff.
她说，“我应该做战略和高水平的事情。
What is happening here?"
这里发生了什么事？”
Donna Lichaw: And she could say, "My strength is strategy." And I hear that all the time.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：她可以说，“我的优势是策略。”我一直听到这样的说法。
"I'm a strategist." What is that?
“我是一名战略家。”那是什么？
It doesn't even mean anything.
它甚至没有任何意义。
That's not a superpower.
那不是超能力。
I don't know, that means nothing.
我不知道，这没什么意义。
But when we looked at her past and her stories, what we were able to pull out is that she was really great at connecting things together, connecting themes, connecting pieces, trends and connecting people; connecting ideas together, and then connecting people to ideas.
但当我们回顾她的过去和她的故事时，我们发现她真的很擅长将事物联系在一起，连接主题，连接片段，趋势和人；将想法联系在一起，然后将人们与想法联系起来。
That's when she was happiest and that's when she was most effective.
那是她最快乐的时候，也是她最有效率的时候。
Donna Lichaw: And so eventually, that being a connector, it was a superpower, one of her superpowers.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：最终，作为一个连接者，它是一种超能力，她的超能力之一。
It also became part of her identity.
这也成为她身份的一部分。
And then over time, she was able to shed the great attention to detail thing as she just started embracing that ability to connect.
随着时间的推移，她能够摆脱对细节的极大关注，因为她刚刚开始拥抱这种联系的能力。
And it made her much more effective at her job in the end.
最终，这使她的工作效率大大提高。
Yeah, look to your past and you can pull out key moments and see what your superpowers are.
是的，回顾你的过去，你可以找出关键时刻，看看你的超能力是什么。
Lenny: We'll link to these tests that you recommended just for people to explore.
莱尼：我们将链接到您推荐的这些测试，仅供人们探索。
I took a couple of them, and they were actually really useful to me, so I think if nothing else, it's a good little context to have while you do this other exercise.
我拿了其中的几个，它们实际上对我来说非常有用，所以我想，如果不出意外的话，当你做其他练习时，这是一个很好的小背景。
And I don't know if I got this right, but one is think about peak experiences in your life, including childhood or mostly adult life, do you recommend?
我不知道我是否正确，但想想你生命中的巅峰经历，包括童年或大部分成年生活，你推荐吗？
Donna Lichaw: Yeah, I would go back as far as you can.
Donna Lichaw：是的，我会尽可能回去。
Definitely childhood, childhood.
绝对是童年，童年。
Lenny: And peak meaning amazing, happy experiences?
莱尼：“巅峰”的意思是令人惊奇、快乐的经历？
Is that what we should look for?
这是我们应该寻找的吗？
Donna Lichaw: It doesn't have to be happy or sad, it's just you were at your best.
Donna Lichaw：不一定要快乐或悲伤，只要你处于最佳状态即可。
It lit you up.
它照亮了你。
And so for example...
举例来说...
I have a few, but...
我有一些，但是...
Well, no, let me ask.
好吧，不，让我问一下。
Enough about me, so other people can hear this in action, when was the time when you were younger or a kid or anytime in the past when you were just at your best, really lit up doing something that just fueled you?
我已经说得够多了，所以其他人可以在行动中听到这一点，当你年轻或还是个孩子的时候，或者过去的任何时候，当你处于最佳状态时，你真的会做一些让你充满活力的事情吗？
Lenny: To me, I guess I think of not necessarily an specific example, but just accomplishing things always gets me energized.
莱尼：对我来说，我想我不一定想到一个具体的例子，但完成事情总是让我充满活力。
I did this hard thing.
我做了这件艰难的事。
Selling my startup, that was a peak experience.
出售我的初创公司，那是一次巅峰经历。
There's one.
有一个。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
And starting the startup.
并开始启动。
Donna Lichaw: And starting the startup.
Donna Lichaw：然后开始创业。
What compelled you to start the startup?
是什么促使您开始创业？
Lenny: I always had this goal of I want to start a company, which is a terrible reason to start a company, but I had a goal I wanted to start a company.
莱尼：我一直有一个目标，那就是我想创办一家公司，这是一个糟糕的理由来创办一家公司，但我有一个目标，我想创办一家公司。
I had set this goal, in two years I'm going to leave this job and start a company.
我已经设定了这个目标，两年后我要辞去这份工作并创办一家公司。
And two years later, that's exactly what I did.
两年后，我也确实这么做了。
Donna Lichaw: What was it about starting a company that made that something that you were so interested in doing?
Donna Lichaw：创办一家公司是因为什么让你如此感兴趣？
Lenny: I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it, I think is the core of it.
Lenny：我想向自己证明我能做到，我认为这是它的核心。
I keep reading about startups.
我一直在阅读有关初创公司的文章。
All these people are doing interesting things.
所有这些人都在做有趣的事情。
I want to just see if I can pull this off.
我只是想看看我能否成功。
Donna Lichaw: Okay.
唐娜·利乔：好的。
You wanted to just see if you could pull it off.
你只是想看看你能否成功。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
And I also felt like I had the skills to do this compared to other folks that were starting companies and trying their hand at a startup.
而且我还觉得，与其他正在创办公司并尝试创业的人相比，我有能力做到这一点。
Donna Lichaw: You wanted to do it because you wanted to see if you could do it and you thought you could do it.
Donna Lichaw：你想做这件事是因为你想看看你是否能做到并且你认为你能做到。
Donna Lichaw: What's so cool when you do this exercise, if we were to do it, we are not going to do it now, it'd take a little while.
Donna Lichaw：当你做这个练习时，有什么很酷的，如果我们要做的话，我们现在不会做，需要一段时间。
But if you were to unpack enough of those stories, even if you can't go far back to your childhood, because sometimes you don't have those memories.
但如果你要解开足够多的这些故事，即使你不能回到童年，因为有时你没有那些记忆。
If you could unpack at least three of those scenarios, you would find themes.
如果您能解开至少其中三个场景，您就会找到主题。
For example, it could be that one of your superpowers is doing things because you can do them.
例如，你的超能力之一可能正在做一些事情，因为你可以做到。
And that's really cool when applied in the right ways.
如果以正确的方式应用的话，这真的很酷。
You said you did the exercise.
你说你做了这个练习。
I'm curious to know what you came up with.
我很想知道你想出了什么。
Lenny: What I'm thinking about as you talk about this is I was very shy my entire childhood, and I think people didn't expect me to achieve big things because I was always just this nerdy, shy guy.
莱尼：当你谈论这个问题时，我想到的是我整个童年都很害羞，我想人们并没有指望我能取得大成就，因为我一直都是一个书呆子、害羞的人。
I think there's always this chip on my shoulder of I'm going to show people what I could do.
我想我的肩上总是有这样的筹码，我会向人们展示我能做什么。
I want to show that I'm capable of more.
我想证明我有能力做到更多。
I think there's a lot of that there.
我认为那里有很多这样的事情。
Donna Lichaw: When you can look at that in context, what you could see is you could see how it's helped you through life, even if it came from adversity.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：当你可以在上下文中看待它时，你可以看到它如何帮助你度过一生，即使它来自逆境。
I'm sure you can also see times when that has not served you and when over indexing on, "I'm going to do it just because I can do it," has actually done a disservice to you.
我相信您也会遇到这样的情况：这对您没有帮助，并且过度索引“我要做这件事只是因为我能做到”，这实际上对您造成了伤害。
And so that's how you end up using them, which is you really look at, all right, from here to where I now want to go, how can I use this?
这就是你最终使用它们的方式，这就是你真正看到的，好吧，从这里到我现在想去的地方，我该如何使用它？
And what do I need to watch out for if I'm going to over index and use this too much?
如果我要过度索引并过多使用它，我需要注意什么？
Yeah.
是的。
Donna Lichaw: Another blanket example that I'll give is problem solving, this keen ability to solve problems.
Donna Lichaw：我给出的另一个笼统的例子是解决问题，这种解决问题的敏锐能力。
I work with a lot of high achieving especially founder CEOs who are amazing at solving problems.
我与许多成就斐然的人一起工作，尤其是创始人首席执行官，他们在解决问题方面非常出色。
And that's how they got to where they are.
这就是他们如何到达现在的位置。
It's usually why you start a company.
这通常是您创办公司的原因。
Well, for the rest of us, you do it because you want to see if you can do it.
好吧，对于我们其他人来说，你这样做是因为你想看看你是否能做到。
Otherwise, it's just to solve a problem.
否则，只是为了解决问题。
But when you're a super senior executive, at some point you can't be solving problems for everyone.
但当你是一名超级高管时，在某些时候你无法为每个人解决问题。
And if you're just in the weeds solving problems all day, that's when you're not doing your real job and you're going to be the whole team and your whole company nuts.
如果你整天只是在杂草丛中解决问题，那么你就没有做好你真正的工作，你就会让整个团队和整个公司都疯了。
And so you have to figure out, okay, if this keen ability to solve problems is a superpower, how do you apply it differently?
所以你必须弄清楚，好吧，如果这种解决问题的敏锐能力是一种超能力，你如何以不同的方式应用它？
Lenny: Yep.
莱尼：是的。
That super resonates.
那种超级共鸣。
A lot of times, you just are interested in the problem.
很多时候，你只是对问题感兴趣。
It's like a puzzle and pulls you in.
它就像一个谜题一样，吸引着你。
And that gets you in trouble.
这会给你带来麻烦。
Lenny: To answer your question, what these tests told me my number one strength was adaptability, that I could just adapt to situations, which has pros and cons, but I super resonates.
Lenny：回答你的问题，这些测试告诉我，我的第一优势是适应性，我可以适应情况，这有优点也有缺点，但我超级有共鸣。
I find that I could just fit into things and adapt.
我发现我可以融入事物并适应。
Donna Lichaw: And it's a perfect example.
Donna Lichaw：这是一个完美的例子。
And, as you see, it has its pros and cons.
而且，如您所见，它有其优点和缺点。
Lenny: Again, just for people to think about, because I really think this is such an important topic and it makes me want to write a newsletter post about this, just how powerful it is to identify, here's the things I'm very strong at and why it's important to double down on those versus think about solving your weaknesses.
莱尼：再说一次，只是为了让人们思考一下，因为我真的认为这是一个非常重要的话题，这让我想写一篇关于这个的时事通讯文章，它是多么强大的识别能力，这是我非常擅长的事情，以及为什么加倍努力而不是考虑解决你的弱点很重要。
Your advice here is maybe take these quizzes that'll give you a sense of maybe your superpowers, and then think about your peak life experiences when you're the most yourself I think is how you describe it.
你在这里的建议是，也许可以做一些测验，让你了解自己的超能力，然后想想当你最自我的时候你的巅峰生活经历，我想这就是你所描述的。
Lenny: And there's an element of also when you're energized, which came up a few times on this podcast.
莱尼：当你精力充沛时，还有一个元素，这个元素在这个播客中出现过几次。
Look for things that give you energy because there's something there.
寻找能给你能量的东西，因为那里有东西。
Donna Lichaw: Yes.
唐娜·利乔：是的。
Yep.
是的。
Because then if you subscribe to...
因为如果你订阅...
I'm sure your audience is familiar with this idea of managing your energy, not your time, which is great for managers, great for anybody, this will help you do that.
我确信您的听众熟悉管理您的精力而不是时间的想法，这对管理者来说很棒，对任何人来说都很棒，这将帮助您做到这一点。
If you're using your superpowers, you will have more energy.
如果你使用你的超能力，你就会有更多的能量。
If you use them too much, then it's going to detract.
如果你使用它们太多，那么它就会分散注意力。
But you want to be doing more of that, more of what lights you up, more of what you love, and figuring out how to manage the rest, whether it's outsourcing or sometimes fixing.
但你想要做更多的事情，更多的事情让你兴奋，更多的事情你喜欢，并弄清楚如何管理其余的事情，无论是外包还是有时修复。
But, I don't know, we're all grown adults.
但我不知道，我们都是成年人了。
It probably is a matter of outsourcing or getting help or supplementing.
这可能是外包或获得帮助或补充的问题。
We don't have to fix everything.
我们不必修复所有事情。
Lenny: There's this guy that we'll link to in the show notes, but another executive coach, Matt Mochary, who we had on the podcast who is just like a walkthrough of how to do an energy audit on your day so that you can identify what gives you energy.
莱尼：我们将在节目笔记中链接到这个人，还有另一位执行教练马特·莫卡里（Matt Mochary），我们在播客上有他，他就像一个演练，告诉你如何在一天中进行能量审计，以便你可以确定是什么给你能量。
And this is actually exactly what led me to this path.
这实际上正是引导我走上这条道路的原因。
When I left my job, I specifically paid close attention to what gives me energy after a meeting I had, after a call, after things I did in the day, and what zaps me of energy?
当我离开工作岗位时，我特别关注在开完会、打完电话、一天做完事情之后是什么给了我能量，以及什么消耗了我的能量？
And I just decided I will do more of the things that are giving me energy.
我决定做更多能给我能量的事情。
And that ended up being this newsletter and eventually this podcast, so it really works.
这最终成为了这份时事通讯，最终成为了这个播客，所以它确实有效。
Donna Lichaw: There you go.
唐娜·利乔：就这样。
And I know Matt Mochary works similar to me with a lot of founder CEOs where you have to do that.
我知道马特·莫卡里（Matt Mochary）的工作方式与我类似，与很多创始人首席执行官一样，你必须这样做。
You have to do that because chances are you're exhausted, you're burnt out; you are spending your energy in the wrong places.
你必须这样做，因为你很可能已经精疲力尽、精疲力竭了；你把精力花在了错误的地方。
And so it applies to anybody, but especially when you are leveling up in leadership and doing something new and hitting that growth edge, you got to be doing it.
所以它适用于任何人，但特别是当你提升领导力并做一些新的事情并达到增长优势时，你必须这样做。
It's just, yeah, you'll run yourself into the ground otherwise.
只是，是的，否则你就会陷入困境。
Lenny: I imagine many people listening to this or feeling like, I wish I could not be in these dumb meetings that I'm in all the time and these stupid reviews.
莱尼：我想很多人听到这个或感觉，我希望我不能参加我一直参加的这些愚蠢的会议和这些愚蠢的评论。
And there's a lot of stuff you have no control over that also are very energy zapping.
有很多你无法控制的事情也非常消耗能量。
What advice would you give to people thinking that?
您会给有这种想法的人什么建议？
Donna Lichaw: Well, okay, let me qualify this with this is why I'm not a career coach, by the way.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：好吧，顺便说一句，让我对此进行限定，这就是我不是职业教练的原因。
I don't help people navigate how to change jobs or leave jobs because I think if you're spending most of your time in your day doing things that are zapping your energy and you hate things you're doing in your job, maybe you're not in the right job.
我不帮助人们了解如何换工作或离开工作，因为我认为如果你一天中的大部分时间都花在做那些消耗你精力的事情上，并且你讨厌你在工作中所做的事情，那么也许你没有找到合适的工作。
I don't know, if I was a career coach, I would just tell everyone, "Oh yeah, quit your job.
我不知道，如果我是一名职业教练，我只会告诉每个人，“哦，是的，辞掉你的工作。
I don't know what you're doing there." But there's a lot of truth to that, which is if there are things that you can control energy wise, great.
我不知道你在那里做什么。”但这有很多道理，那就是如果你可以明智地控制能量，那就太好了。
Manage your energy, not your time.
管理你的精力，而不是你的时间。
If there's really nothing you could do about it and it's the context and it's the situation, then your next best thing is trying to figure out how to change the context or the situation.
如果你真的无能为力，而且这是背景和情况，那么你的下一个最好的事情就是尝试找出如何改变背景或情况。
I'm pretty ruthless there, I think.
我认为我在那里很无情。
This is what I still bring from product management, I'm ruthless when it comes to prioritizing things.
这就是我从产品管理中仍然学到的东西，在确定事情的优先顺序时我是无情的。
And so-
所以——
Lenny: I love it.
莱尼：我喜欢。
This is prioritization.
这就是优先级。
Lenny: This reminds me of a Steve Jobs quote that I love of...
莱尼：这让我想起了我喜欢的史蒂夫·乔布斯的一句话……
His advice is just, "If you wake up every morning and you're feeling dread for the thing you're doing, it's okay to wake up sometimes and feeling that and feel like, ah, I'm not excited about this day, but if it keeps happening over and over and over and over, that's a sign that maybe you should make a change."
他的建议只是，“如果你每天早上醒来，都对自己正在做的事情感到恐惧，那么有时醒来时有这种感觉并感觉，啊，我对这一天并不兴奋，但如果这种情况不断发生，那就是一个信号，也许你应该做出改变。”
Donna Lichaw: Yeah.
唐娜·利乔：是的。
I think there's something there.
我认为那里有东西。
And actually, to bring this back to kryptonite, if it's something little, like let's say Zoom fatigue for example, I know it became definitely a topic when the pandemic hit a bunch of years ago, but I've been working remotely for, God, years, years, and even pre-pandemic.
实际上，让我们回到氪石上来，如果是一些小事，比如变焦疲劳，我知道这绝对成为几年前大流行爆发时的一个话题，但我已经远程工作了很多年，很多年，甚至是大流行前。
And I'm in meetings all day long.
而且我整天都在开会。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I love working with my clients.
我喜欢和我的客户一起工作。
And they're all over the world, so we can't always travel to be with them.
而且他们遍布世界各地，所以我们不能总是旅行去和他们在一起。
We do sometimes.
我们有时会这样做。
They can't always travel to be with me.
他们不能总是出差来陪我。
But the video's the next best thing, but it can be exhausting.
但视频是第二好的东西，但它可能会让人筋疲力尽。
And so does that mean I'm not just never going to have video calls ever?
那么这是否意味着我永远不会进行视频通话？
No, because I love what I do, and so I've discovered little hacks for that.
不，因为我喜欢我所做的事情，所以我发现了一些小窍门。
One, which is don't schedule too many meetings a day.
一是每天不要安排太多会议。
Great.
伟大的。
Do lots of active stuff in between gym walks, whatever, try to get in-person social time, no meeting days.
在去健身房散步的间隙做很多积极的事情，无论如何，尝试获得面对面的社交时间，而不是开会。
Donna Lichaw: And for during meetings, right here, I've got one of my squishies.
Donna Lichaw：在会议期间，就在这里，我有一个我的软糖。
There's the neurological thing with Zoom where we're just getting stimuli through our eyes and through our brains, but we're not getting physical stimuli, the same I would be getting if we were in a room together hanging out.
Zoom 存在神经学方面的问题，我们只是通过眼睛和大脑获得刺激，但我们没有获得身体刺激，就像我们一起在一个房间里闲逛时我会得到的刺激一样。
Even having you just be on the other side of the room and we were chatting, it would be a very different physical experience that would close that circuitry for me and leave me more satisfied as opposed to on Zoom, my brain's on the lookout for something.
即使你只是在房间的另一边，我们正在聊天，这也会是一种非常不同的物理体验，它会关闭我的电路，让我更满意，而不是在 Zoom 上，我的大脑正在寻找一些东西。
And so I, a lot of my clients do this too, fidgets help ground me when I'm on Zoom calls.
所以我，我的很多客户也这样做，当我在 Zoom 通话时，坐立不安可以帮助我平静下来。
And it's like, okay, great.
就像，好吧，太棒了。
There are things you can manage, but yes, like that Steve Jobs quote or idea is if, God, if you really don't like and are getting energy sucked for most of what you're doing and it's constant, you got to change your situation.
有些事情你可以管理，但是，是的，就像史蒂夫·乔布斯的名言或想法是，如果，上帝，如果你真的不喜欢并且在你所做的大部分事情上都被耗尽了精力，而且这种情况一直存在，你就必须改变你的处境。
Lenny: I really like that tip.
莱尼：我真的很喜欢这个建议。
That's very practical.
这非常实用。
And buy something that you can play with with your hands.
买一些可以用手玩的东西。
I use this pen, actually, is what I'm playing with usually with these podcasts.
事实上，我通常用这支笔来玩这些播客。
I need something squishy maybe.
也许我需要一些柔软的东西。
Lenny: If there's anything you recommend, let's link to it in a show notes.
莱尼：如果您有任何推荐，请在演出笔记中链接到它。
Donna Lichaw: Oh my God, I know, I know.
唐娜·利乔：天哪，我知道，我知道。
One of my superpowers that's actually my kryptonite, but if I'm humorous about it, I'll call it a superpower is starting things that I don't finish.
我的超能力之一实际上是我的氪石，但如果我对此很幽默的话，我会称其为超能力，那就是开始我没有完成的事情。
And so I think I have a picture of it somewhere on my website, a superhero supply kit that I prototyped a while back that has all these different types of fidgets and chocolate and all these things to get you through your meetings.
所以我想我的网站上有一张它的图片，这是我不久前制作的超级英雄供应套件的原型，里面有所有这些不同类型的坐立不安和巧克力以及所有这些可以帮助你完成会议的东西。
And there are pointy fidgets that give you energy in the morning, and then there are squishy ones for the afternoon.
早上的一些尖锐的烦躁会给你带来能量，下午的一些烦躁则会让你精力充沛。
And I've done way too much research.
我做了太多的研究。
I should send you one at some point.
我应该在某个时候给你寄一份。
I have a few boxes prototyped, and I never ended up doing anything with them, so I just send them to clients sometimes.
我有几个盒子原型，但我最终没有用它们做任何事情，所以有时我只是将它们发送给客户。
But-
但是——
Donna Lichaw: Good.
唐娜·利乔：很好。
I'll put that on my list of things I-
我会把它放在我的事情清单上-
Donna Lichaw: ...
唐娜·利乔：……
need to do, just also my kryptonite.
需要做的，也只是我的氪石。
Lenny: Okay, there's just a couple more things I wanted to touch on and then I'll let you go.
莱尼：好的，我还有几件事想谈，然后我就让你走了。
One is you have this interesting approach of using product frameworks that people know in their day-to-day building product to translate that to personal growth advice.
一是你有一种有趣的方法，使用人们在日常构建产品中了解的产品框架，将其转化为个人成长建议。
And so in your book, you use that design thinking double diamond framework for helping people think about their own life and career.
因此，在您的书中，您使用设计思维双钻石框架来帮助人们思考自己的生活和职业。
Is there a couple you could share that people can maybe think about and use of just here's something you know in product.
您是否可以分享一些人们可以思考和使用的东西，这些都是您在产品中所知道的。
Here's how you can actually use this in your life, in your career.
以下是你如何在生活和职业生涯中实际运用它的方法。
Donna Lichaw: I trained with Gestalt coaches and therapists when I moved into coaching.
Donna Lichaw：当我从事教练工作时，我接受了格式塔教练和治疗师的训练。
Gestalt psychology and Gestalt therapy, the idea is that...
格式塔心理学和格式塔疗法，其想法是......
Well, it's a lot of what I talk about and especially in the book, this idea of when you want to create real lasting powerful change, you don't do it by forcing change to happen, you instead do it by embracing what is and what's working and then figuring out how to leverage that.
嗯，这是我谈论的很多内容，尤其是在书中，当你想要创造真正持久的强大变革时，你不会通过强迫变革发生来实现这一点，而是通过拥抱现状和有效的方式，然后弄清楚如何利用它来实现这一点。
And so it works for individual therapy, it works for coaching.
所以它适用于个体治疗，也适用于教练。
It also works more broadly for organizational change and giant transformational development projects or initiatives or any kind of change.
它还更广泛地适用于组织变革和大型转型发展项目或举措或任何类型的变革。
But one of the theoretical underpinnings there is when you do understand what's working and you start to get an idea of what's possible or something that you want to go try or do or create or make happen, you don't just go and change everything or do it all at once, you take one tiny step and run a little experiment to get data.
但理论基础之一是，当你确实了解什么是有效的，并且你开始了解什么是可能的，或者你想要尝试、做、创造或实现的事情时，你不会只是去改变一切或一次性完成所有事情，而是采取一小步并进行一些实验来获取数据。
Donna Lichaw: And so the way I work and the way I learned to work, at least through Gestalt coaching and Gestalt therapy, was you don't leave a session with me without having tried a little experiment first.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：所以我的工作方式和我学习工作的方式，至少通过格式塔辅导和格式塔疗法，是你在没有先尝试一些实验之前就不会离开我的会议。
The analogy there is we would call it an in the room experiment versus then get out of the building and do an experiment.
类比是，我们将其称为室内实验，而不是离开建筑物进行实验。
And if you subscribe to, I guess I'm going to call it lean methodology.
如果您订阅，我想我会称之为精益方法论。
Although I feel like these names change all the time, and oh, that's so 10 years ago.
虽然我感觉这些名字一直在变，哦，那是10年前的事了。
And I don't care what anything's called, but the idea of experimenting and getting data and then using what you learn to make informed decisions on how to change things and then how to build things and how to make things even more successful, it works for the digital products that we build, it works for the businesses that we build, and it works for ourselves.
我不在乎什么叫什么，但这种想法是试验和获取数据，然后利用你学到的知识就如何改变事物、如何构建事物以及如何使事物变得更加成功做出明智的决定，它适用于我们构建的数字产品，它适用于我们构建的业务，也适用于我们自己。
And ideally, you do it for all the above.
理想情况下，您可以针对上述所有内容执行此操作。
And so anything you think is true or you want to do, it's a hypothesis until you test it.
因此，任何你认为正确的或你想做的事情，在你测试之前都只是一个假设。
And you go out, get data, and then you can do a bigger version, bigger version, bigger version.
然后你出去获取数据，然后你可以做一个更大的版本，更大的版本，更大的版本。
It works with human psychology and all the things we want to create and learn in life just as well as with products.
它适用于人类心理以及我们想要在生活中创造和学习的所有事物，就像产品一样。
Lenny: Is there an example of one of those little experiments you ran in a session?
莱尼：有一个你在一次会议中进行的小实验的例子吗？
Donna Lichaw: Bring us back to the example of that one executive from earlier, to keep the continuity here, who thought she was too quiet and her team was complaining about her.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：让我们回到之前一位高管的例子，为了保持这里的连续性，他认为她太安静了，她的团队在抱怨她。
And actually the irony, often when people come to me with things that they're embarrassed by, on the outside, she was actually quite loud.
事实上，具有讽刺意味的是，通常当人们带着让他们感到尴尬的事情来找我时，在外面，她实际上很大声。
As a person, she was really loud and brash and all these things, it's just that in terms of her team, they didn't like how quiet she was in meetings.
作为一个人，她真的很吵闹、傲慢等等，只是就她的团队而言，他们不喜欢她在会议中如此安静。
Especially that dissonance there was confusing to them because she was so loud and boisterous and energetic.
尤其是那里的不和谐音让他们感到困惑，因为她是如此大声、喧闹和精力充沛。
But using that as an example, I remember when we first realized that the reason why she was so quiet in meetings is because she was spending a lot of time doing deep listening.
但以此为例，我记得当我们第一次意识到她在会议上如此安静的原因是因为她花了很多时间进行深入倾听时。
Donna Lichaw: She started to chill out a little bit about it and stop beating herself up as much and started realizing, "Oh, that's a good thing.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：她开始对此冷静下来，不再那么自责，并开始意识到，“哦，这是一件好事。
Why am I so insecure and getting so angry at myself for doing this all the time?" That's good.
为什么我如此没有安全感，并对自己一直这样做感到如此生气？”那挺好的。
She started to chill out a little bit, but then the idea of a bigger experiment was in your next meeting later this afternoon, see what it feels like to sit there and just listen for an hour, just see what it feels like.
她开始冷静下来，但随后在今天下午晚些时候的下一次会议上有了一个更大的实验的想法，看看坐在那里听一个小时是什么感觉，看看感觉如何。
And then see what you make of it, and then we'll figure out what to do about it.
然后看看你对此有何看法，然后我们将找出应对措施。
But just see what it feels like to listen and be in awe of, "Wow, I'm really listening."
但只要看看聆听的感觉，并敬畏“哇，我真的在听。”
Donna Lichaw: And so that would been a get out of the building experiment.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：所以这将是摆脱建筑实验的一个选择。
But the idea of doing that petrified her, because she's like, "I can't sit for a whole hour just being like, 'Yeah,' patting myself on the back.
但这样做的想法吓坏了她，因为她说，“我不能坐上整整一个小时，只是拍着自己的背说‘是的’。
'I'm a good listener.
'我是一个很好的倾听者。
I'm a good listener.
我是一个很好的倾听者。
Look at me.' Or not even good or bad, but wow, I'm really listening." That's all I ever want from people is just this radical appreciation, this awe of, wow, I'm doing this.
看着我。或者甚至不是好或坏，但是哇，我真的在听。”我想要从人们那里得到的只是这种彻底的欣赏，这种敬畏，哇，我正在做这件事。
Everything changes when you figure that out.
当你弄清楚这一点时，一切都会改变。
Donna Lichaw: But we decided to run a little experiment because why waste a whole hour of her life when we could just do something in 30 seconds in the room right now?
Donna Lichaw：但我们决定进行一个小实验，因为当我们现在可以在房间里用 30 秒做某事时，为什么要浪费她一生的一小时呢？
And so we tried a little role play of, all right, what would it be like to just sit here for 30 seconds?
所以我们尝试了一个角色扮演，好吧，如果在这里坐 30 秒会是什么样子？
And I talked about I don't know what.
我谈到了我不知道的事情。
And just listen to me.
听我说。
We're having a meeting.
我们正在开会。
What does it feel like for 30 seconds to do that?
做这件事30秒感觉如何？
And we did that.
我们做到了。
And her answer was, "That was terrifying.
她的回答是：“那太可怕了。
That was God awful.
那太可怕了。
Oh my God, I have to do that for a whole hour?" And eventually over time, it got easier.
天哪，我必须这样做整整一个小时吗？”最终随着时间的推移，事情变得更容易了。
It was very uncomfortable.
非常不舒服。
Donna Lichaw: This is where I'll bring up the whole superhero analogy.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：这就是我要提出的整个超级英雄类比的地方。
Again in superhero stories, when superheroes discover what their superpowers actually are, they don't just say, "Oh, thanks for this gift," and then run and save the world.
再次在超级英雄故事中，当超级英雄发现他们的超能力实际上是什么时，他们不会只是说，“哦，谢谢你的礼物”，然后逃跑并拯救世界。
Every superhero has a really hard time accepting, "Oh, this is my gift?
每个超级英雄都很难接受，“哦，这是我的礼物？
Hell no." Or, "Wait, what do I do with this?" And they wreak havoc and they make a mess and it's uncomfortable.
见鬼，不。”或者，“等等，我该怎么办？”他们造成严重破坏，弄得一团糟，这让人很不舒服。
And even Superman tries to get rid of his superpowers often because he doesn't like being super.
甚至超人也经常试图摆脱他的超能力，因为他不喜欢成为超级。
And so it's hard to know what you're really, really great at.
所以很难知道你真正非常擅长什么。
Donna Lichaw: But when you can run little experiments that get bigger and bigger over time and really learn how to...
Donna Lichaw：但是当你可以进行一些小实验，随着时间的推移，这些实验会变得越来越大，并真正学会如何......
Whether it's embracing your superpowers or anything.
无论是拥抱你的超能力还是其他什么。
Let's say there's something you want to try, something scary.
假设有一些你想尝试的事情，一些可怕的事情。
Or look at me with my superhero supply kit.
或者看看我和我的超级英雄补给包。
And I was like, "I really want to build a gift box.
我当时想，“我真的很想制作一个礼品盒。
Let me prototype that." Okay, fine.
让我来制作原型。”好吧，好吧。
Five years later, have I done anything with it?
五年后，我对它做了什么吗？
No, but I built it.
不，但我建造了它。
I saw what it's like.
我看到了它是什么样子。
It felt good.
感觉很好。
And then as I got bigger with my experiment of thinking about how can I mass produce this?
然后，当我的实验变得越来越大时，我开始思考如何大规模生产这个？
Where would I sell it?
我该去哪里卖呢？
What about taxes?
税收呢？
Oh, God.
哦，上帝。
And not for me.
不适合我。
And that's fine, so I give them away as gifts.
没关系，所以我把它们作为礼物送给别人。
But whether it's product or you or your business, small experiments, get data, go bigger, adjust, iterate, all of it.
但无论是产品、你还是你的企业，小实验、获取数据、扩大规模、调整、迭代，所有这一切。
You will accomplish incredible things.
你将会完成令人难以置信的事情。
Lenny: And I think a lot of the power there is you feel like, "Wow, there's something new here I didn't expect.
莱尼：我认为你会觉得，“哇，这里有一些我没想到的新东西。
And this is a new interesting learning.
这是一个新的有趣的学习。
Let me see where else this can go."
让我看看这还能去哪里。”
Donna Lichaw: Yes.
唐娜·利乔：是的。
And I think the biggest difference that took me a long time for me to learn is that as opposed to product development, you're testing things not just how is it working and what are the numbers?
我认为我花了很长时间才明白的最大区别是，与产品开发相反，你测试的不仅仅是它如何工作以及数字是多少？
Well, even with product, we're not just looking at numbers all the time, but when you're experimenting with yourself and with people you work with and with your teams and with your companies, you run it through three filters.
好吧，即使对于产品，我们也不总是只看数字，但是当你对自己、与你的同事、与你的团队以及你的公司进行试验时，你会通过三个过滤器来运行它。
And this is not my term, but I'll say head, heart, hands is what I like to think of, which is head, okay, how's this going?
这不是我的术语，但我会说“头”、“心”、“手”，这是我喜欢想到的，这就是“头”，好吧，这是怎么回事？
What are my thoughts?
我的想法是什么？
You might think, yeah, okay, I'm listening.
你可能会想，是的，好吧，我在听。
That's fine.
没关系。
Okay, next.
好的，接下来。
Emotionally, how is this going in your heart?
从情感上来说，你的内心是怎样的？
Wow, I'm terrified.
哇，我好害怕。
This feels awful, or this isn't so bad, or whatever it is.
这感觉很糟糕，或者这并没有那么糟糕，或者无论如何。
Or it might be, no, that's fine.
或者可能是，不，没关系。
I hear that a lot.
我经常听到这样的说法。
"That was fine."
“那很好。”
Donna Lichaw: But then how does it feel in your body?
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：那么你的身体感觉如何？
Our bodies are ultimately where we take in our stimuli and then store all of our experiences.
我们的身体最终是我们吸收刺激并储存我们所有经验的地方。
And our body also tells us what next action we should take.
我们的身体也会告诉我们下一步应该采取什么行动。
And if you run an experiment and scan your body and it's like, "Yeah, that felt fine.
如果你进行实验并扫描你的身体，你会感觉，“是的，感觉很好。
And then how do you feel in your body?
然后你的身体感觉如何？
"Oh, numb." Well, that will tell you something.
“哦，麻木了。”嗯，这会告诉你一些事情。
Donna Lichaw: Or I hear this all the time, "How do you feel?" "My hands are on fire." Or I was working with one client yesterday, and I think she said something like, "That was fine," and her whole face turned bright red.
Donna Lichaw：或者我一直听到这样的话，“你感觉怎么样？” “我的手着火了。”或者我昨天和一位客户一起工作，我想她说了类似“没关系”之类的话，然后她的整个脸都变成了鲜红色。
And then after a minute we were able to say, "Okay, what's going...
一分钟后我们可以说，“好吧，发生了什么事......
Fine versus your face turned bright red.
很好，你的脸变成了鲜红。
What happened there?" And then she realized, "Oh, I'm burning up.
那里发生了什么事？”然后她意识到，“哦，我着火了。
This is not okay." Yeah, run it through head, heart, hands.
这不行。”是的，把它贯穿头脑、心灵、双手。
Life is like product thinking and it's also not.
生活就像产品思维，但又不是。
We have to go deeper and more broad with our experiences, and then we'll learn the most and be able to make the most informed, amazing decisions.
我们必须更深入、更广泛地积累经验，然后我们才能学到最多的东西，并能够做出最明智、最令人惊奇的决定。
And this is so cheesy, but live a good life and make an impact and be a great leader and do all the things you want to do that way.
这太俗气了，但是过上美好的生活，产生影响，成为一个伟大的领导者，并以这种方式做所有你想做的事情。
Lenny: Beautiful.
莱尼：美丽。
The point you just made about how much of our thinking is driven by our body, we just had a whole episode on this a few episodes ago with Johnny Miller where we talk about the nervous system and how most of our neurons go up to our brain versus down from the brain and our body's telling our brain what we're feeling, so there's a lot.
你刚才提到我们的思维有多少是由我们的身体驱动的，前几集我们和约翰尼·米勒一起讨论了这一点，我们讨论了神经系统，以及我们的大多数神经元如何向上到达我们的大脑，而不是从大脑向下，以及我们的身体告诉我们的大脑我们的感受，所以有很多。
If you want to explore that as a listener, that's a great episode.
如果你想以听众的身份探索这一点，那是很棒的一集。
We'll link to it in the show notes.
我们将在演出笔记中链接到它。
Lenny: Okay, let me ask you a question that my colleague suggested.
莱尼：好的，让我问你一个我同事建议的问题。
She gave me a few suggestions to ask you.
她给了我一些建议，想请教你。
And I imagine this is what worked for her in you two working together.
我想这就是你们两个一起工作对她有用的地方。
Question she had is how as an executive coach do you help identify/bring out goals or wishes that people have in their subconscious but are unable to realize or articulate?
她的问题是，作为一名高管教练，您如何帮助识别/实现人们潜意识中但无法实现或表达的目标或愿望？
Donna Lichaw: Start with the ending.
唐娜·利乔：从结局开始。
Come up with how you want things to turn out, and then work your way back.
想出你希望事情如何发展，然后再按原路返回。
And start as far out as you want.
并从您想要的距离开始。
It could be decades from now, it could be five years from now, it could be three years from now, it could be a year from now, it could be a quarter from now.
可能是几十年后，可能是五年后，可能是三年后，可能是一年后，也可能是四分之一后。
It could do all the above.
它可以做到以上所有的事情。
And really imagine.
并真正想象一下。
Close your eyes; imagine you're there.
闭上眼睛；想象你在那里。
Engage all your senses.
调动你所有的感官。
What do you hear?
你听到什么？
What do you smell?
你闻到什么味道了？
What do you see?
你看到了什么？
Who do you see?
你看到谁了？
What do you feel emotionally, physically?
你在情感上、身体上有什么感受？
And what are you doing?
你在做什么？
What have you accomplished?
你取得了什么成就？
What's amazing?
有什么了不起的？
Donna Lichaw: And then if you've got something exciting, go back to the beginning and then imagine how you got there and just write that journey out.
Donna Lichaw：如果你有一些令人兴奋的事情，请回到开头，然后想象你是如何到达那里的，然后把这段旅程写下来。
If you think of it as an experimental roadmap, then start thinking, all right, what's the first thing I need to learn to know if this is right?
如果您将其视为实验性路线图，那么请开始思考，好吧，我需要学习的第一件事是什么才能知道这是否正确？
Work your way towards that and onwards.
朝着这个方向努力并继续前进。
Donna Lichaw: If you do that and you're like, "I have no vision," which I remember is what happened in this case, you sit with it for longer.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：如果你这样做了，然后你会说，“我没有远见”，我记得这就是在这个案例中发生的事情，你就会忍受更长的时间。
You can't write that journey if you don't have that ending.
如果没有那个结局，你就无法写出这段旅程。
And so you sit with it for as long as you need until you get it, and then you create it.
因此，只要你需要，你就可以坐在那里直到你得到它，然后你就可以创造它。
And again, it sounds so cheesy in a way.
再说一次，这在某种程度上听起来很俗气。
It's not like I'm subscribing to this anything you want in life, you just say it and accomplish it.
这并不是说我会订阅你生活中想要的任何东西，你只需说出来并完成它。
I know life doesn't exist like that, but dream it, see it, and then start taking steps to get there.
我知道生活并不像那样存在，但梦想它，看到它，然后开始采取措施实现它。
What you end up creating will very likely be very different than you ever imagined.
你最终创造的东西很可能与你想象的非常不同。
But this is what's going to fuel you.
但这会为你提供动力。
We're human, we're visual creatures.
我们是人类，我们是视觉动物。
And so yeah.
所以是的。
Donna Lichaw: And I have the whole mission section of the book and I have lots of choose your own adventure options for troubleshooting and the pitfalls to look out for.
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：我有本书的整个任务部分，我有很多选择你自己的冒险选项来进行故障排除和需要注意的陷阱。
But yeah, that's my long-winded answer.
但是，是的，这就是我的冗长答案。
Envision it, then figure out how you might've made it happen and go make it happen.
设想一下，然后弄清楚如何实现它，然后去实现它。
Lenny: I was going to say this is a great tease for a part of your book we didn't get too much, so a good reason to go buy the book.
莱尼：我想说，这对你书中的一部分来说是一个很好的调侃，我们没有得到太多，所以这是一个买这本书的好理由。
Something I was going to say as you were talking is with this coach I worked with once, we did this exercise.
当你说话的时候我想说的是和我曾经合作过的这位教练，我们做了这个练习。
And I was like, "Okay, five years or maybe 10 years, I'm not working anymore.
我当时想，“好吧，五年或者十年，我不再工作了。
Here's what I'm doing.
这就是我正在做的事情。
I'm living here.
我住在这里。
Family." She's like, "Everyone in tech is like in five years they're not working anymore.
家人。”她说，“科技行业的每个人都好像五年后就不再工作了。
They're just done, they're retired." Everybody's in that.
他们刚刚结束，退休了。”每个人都在其中。
That's their future, which is not obviously realistic, but it's hilarious.
这就是他们的未来，这显然不太现实，但却很搞笑。
Donna Lichaw: Yeah.
唐娜·利乔：是的。
I remember years ago, 10 years ago, I was like, "10 years from now, I'm definitely not working in tech, definitely not working in tech." And then here we are.
我记得几年前，十年前，我当时想，“十年后，我绝对不会在科技领域工作，绝对不会在科技领域工作。”然后我们就到了。
But it's funny how things end up.
但事情的结局很有趣。
But what matters is that you're clear on the impact that you want to make.
但重要的是您清楚自己想要产生的影响。
And how you make it, who knows what'll end up being the case.
至于你如何做到这一点，谁知道最终会发生什么。
And that you're doing it true to yourself.
而且你是在真实地做自己。
Lenny: And impact is another chapter in your book, which we also didn't get to, so there's a lot of context.
莱尼：影响力是你书中的另一章，我们也没有讲到，所以有很多背景。
Donna Lichaw: So many teasers.
唐娜·利乔：这么多预告片。
Yes, go buy the book.
是的，去买书吧。
Lenny: So many teasers.
莱尼：这么多预告片。
Donna, is there anything you wanted to share or leave listeners with before we get to a very exciting lightning round?
唐娜，在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，您有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？
Donna Lichaw: No, no. It's been so delightful chatting with you.
唐娜·利乔：不，不。和你聊天真是太愉快了。
No, nothing else.
不，没有别的。
Lenny: Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
莱尼：好了，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
莱尼：第一个问题，你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？
Donna Lichaw: Here's a funny thing is I used to have all these different books for different topics.
Donna Lichaw：有趣的是，我曾经拥有针对不同主题的所有不同书籍。
I'm going to give you the worst answer, but it's true.
我会给你最糟糕的答案，但这是事实。
All these different books for different topics.
所有这些不同的书籍针对不同的主题。
And similar to when I was working in product, I had all these different books and whatever.
与我从事产品工作时类似，我有所有这些不同的书籍等等。
And then eventually I realized I need to write the book that I really want to recommend, and so I did that with my last book, The User's Journey, which is all about product development.
然后最终我意识到我需要写一本我真正想推荐的书，所以我在我的上一本书《用户之旅》中做到了这一点，这本书都是关于产品开发的。
This sounds so conceited, but I really believe it, I now recommend my book the most.
这听起来很自负，但我真的相信，我现在最推荐我的书。
And it combines all my favorite ideas, philosophies, books out there.
它结合了我最喜欢的所有想法、哲学和书籍。
And you can check out the bibliography to see all the 30, 50 books that you can read otherwise.
你可以查看参考书目，查看所有你可以阅读的 30、50 本书。
But man, I sound like such a jerk.
但是伙计，我听起来像个混蛋。
Lenny: No, I get this because this is what my newsletter was originally is I'll just do my best to define an answer to this question I get often and put it together and make it really good so that I could send people, "Here's my best answer to this question." But every time I do that, they're like, "Oh, brother, just sending your own blog post to me.
莱尼：不，我明白这一点是因为这就是我的时事通讯最初的目的，我会尽力定义我经常收到的这个问题的答案，并将其放在一起，使其变得非常好，以便我可以向人们发送“这是我对这个问题的最佳答案”。但每次我这样做时，他们都会说，“哦，兄弟，只是将你自己的博客文章发送给我。
Just tell me an answer." I'm like, "But I've written the best version of it here.
只要告诉我一个答案即可。”我想，“但我已经在这里写了最好的版本。
This is going to answer everything you're looking for." I go through the same pain.
这将满足你所寻找的一切。”我也经历过同样的痛苦。
Okay, next question.
好的，下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?
您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Donna Lichaw: A show I've been watching recently, and I feel funny saying this because the fourth season was on recently, and I didn't enjoy it as much, but the first few seasons were so much fun, was For All Mankind on Apple TV.
Donna Lichaw：我最近一直在看的一个节目，我觉得这么说很有趣，因为第四季最近才播出，我不太喜欢它，但前几季非常有趣，就是 Apple TV 上的《为了全人类》。
Have you seen it?
你见过吗？
The-
该-
Donna Lichaw: It was so much fun.
唐娜·利乔：太有趣了。
It was all like what if the space industry was in an alternate reality and the last few decades were different than what they were?
这就像如果航天工业处于另一个现实中并且过去几十年与现在不同会怎样？
That was very fun.
那非常有趣。
And for work stuff, a lot of my clients love watching Ted Lasso for all the leadership stuff.
至于工作方面，我的很多客户都喜欢看泰德·拉索 (Ted Lasso) 的领导力方面的内容。
And it's just such a sweet show.
这真是一场甜蜜的演出。
But yeah, For All Mankind is recent.
但是，是的，《为了全人类》是最近才出版的。
That's really fun.
这真的很有趣。
Lenny: Next question, do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask?
Lenny：下一个问题，你有最喜欢问的面试问题吗？
Usually this is meant for people interviewing candidates, but is there anything that comes to mind when I ask this question?
通常这适用于面试候选人的人，但是当我问这个问题时，我会想到什么吗？
Donna Lichaw: The question I always ask when I'm interviewing clients.
Donna Lichaw：这是我在采访客户时总是问的问题。
Because if I'm not excited about what you you're doing, we're not going to work together.
因为如果我对你所做的事情不感到兴奋，我们就不会一起工作。
Yeah, I want to know what that is.
是的，我想知道那是什么。
And so imagine it's a few years out and you've had the best however long, year or three years of your life, what would you be telling me?
想象一下，几年后，你已经度过了生命中最美好的时光，不管是一年还是三年，你会告诉我什么？
And I like to add a twist to that, which is from Benjamin Zander in a book called The Art of Possibility, where with his students, he used to say, "Give yourself an A.
我想对此添加一个转折，这是来自本杰明·赞德（Benjamin Zander）在一本名为《可能性的艺术》（The Art of Possibility）的书中，他经常对他的学生说：“给自己一个 A。
If you could give yourself an A at the end of the semester, what would you be writing?
如果你可以在学期结束时给自己一个 A，你会写什么？
Write the ending." And so I love doing that with clients, just seeing what could be possible that we could create if we work together?
写下结局。”所以我喜欢与客户一起这样做，只是看看如果我们一起工作，我们可以创造什么？
Donna Lichaw: Same thing with job candidates, although it's reminding me, one of my first jobs I ever got out of college, this is in the early .com days, I remember my then who became my boss, he asked me that question when he was interviewing me, where I saw myself in five years.
Donna Lichaw：求职者也是如此，尽管它提醒我，我大学毕业后得到的第一份工作，这是在 .com 的早期，我记得当时谁成为了我的老板，他在面试我时问了我这个问题，我看到了五年后的自己。
And I remember at the time, my answer was, "Not here, and hopefully making documentary films." And this is like a .com job, but in hindsight, I can't believe I answered it that way.
我记得当时我的回答是：“不在这里，希望拍纪录片。”这就像 .com 的工作，但事后看来，我不敢相信我是这样回答的。
I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to be doing something else in five years." And he loved it so much that he hired me on the spot.
我当时想，“是的，五年后我会做别的事情。”他非常喜欢它，所以当场就雇用了我。
And we're still friends many decades later.
几十年后我们仍然是朋友。
Yeah, that's my favorite interview question all around.
是的，这是我最喜欢的面试问题。
Lenny: It's similar to question people often using product of just what is the ideal experience that...
莱尼：这类似于人们经常使用产品的问题，即什么是理想的体验......
What's the perfect version of what we're building?
我们正在构建的完美版本是什么？
And let's work backwards from that.
让我们从这个角度倒推。
Or what's like the 10 X version?
或者 10 X 版本怎么样？
Donna Lichaw: Exactly.
唐娜·利乔：没错。
Or if you want to add to that, if you could wave a magic wand, it's the same kind of thing.
或者如果你想补充一点，如果你可以挥舞魔杖，那也是一样的。
What could be possible?
什么可能是可能的？
Lenny: I love the leveraging of product thinking into coaching.
Lenny：我喜欢将产品思维运用到指导中。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Next question, do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you love?
下一个问题，您是否有最近发现的最喜欢的产品？
Maybe you already mentioned the squishy thing.
也许你已经提到过粘糊糊的东西了。
Maybe something else comes to mind.
也许我想到了别的事情。
Donna Lichaw: My fidgets, all my fidgets.
唐娜·利乔：我的烦躁不安，我所有的烦躁不安。
I have so many; many different kinds.
我有这么多；许多不同的种类。
They're so much fun.
他们非常有趣。
I'm sure I have a better answer somewhere.
我确信我在某个地方有更好的答案。
But yeah, I would say my fidgets.
但是，是的，我会说我的坐立不安。
Lenny: Well, if you can point us to your favorites in links, that would be awesome.
莱尼：嗯，如果您能在链接中向我们指出您最喜欢的内容，那就太好了。
I'm sure people are curious what you've discovered.
我确信人们很好奇你的发现。
Donna Lichaw: Yes.
唐娜·利乔：是的。
I curate them.
我策划它们。
I will definitely do that.
我一定会这么做的。
Lenny: How amazing.
莱尼：太神奇了。
I'm going to that.
我正要这么做。
Donna Lichaw: Yep.
唐娜·利乔：是的。
And there's also the long one, the sticky monkey noodles.
还有一种长的，粘猴面。
So many.
这么多。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often find yourself coming back to sharing with friends or family, either in work or in life?
您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常在工作或生活中与朋友或家人分享？
Donna Lichaw: It's a phrase that I got from one of my mentors, and I teach it to all my clients, which is...
Donna Lichaw：这是我从一位导师那里得到的一句话，我把它教给我所有的客户，那就是……
Her catchphrase is, "Isn't that interesting?" And I have it as a sticky note, a physical sticky note on my computer monitor to remind me, which what it reminds me to do is get into what Gestalt folks call an optimistic stance.
她的口头禅是“这不是很有趣吗？”我把它作为便利贴，在我的电脑显示器上贴上一张物理便利贴来提醒我，它提醒我要做的是进入格式塔人所谓的乐观立场。
And I'm a chronic, serious, acute pessimist.
我是一个长期的、严重的、急性的悲观主义者。
Anyone who knows me, I'm cranky, but I love this reminder to be in this optimistic stance.
任何认识我的人都知道，我很暴躁，但我喜欢这个提醒，让我保持乐观的态度。
Again, not that Stuart Smalley, "Wow, everything's great.
再说一次，不是斯图尔特·斯莫利，“哇，一切都很棒。
Woohoo," but it's a kind of radical appreciation.
哇哦，”但这是一种激进的欣赏。
Not isn't this good or bad, but wow, I just stubbed my toe and it really hurts.
这不是好是坏，但是哇，我刚刚撞到了脚趾，真的很疼。
Isn't that interesting?
这不是很有趣吗？
Let me feel that throbbing toe.
让我感受一下那跳动的脚趾。
Or, wow, someone on my team just talked over me in a meeting 20 times in the last hour.
或者，哇，我的团队中有人在过去一小时内在会议上谈论了我 20 次。
Donna Lichaw: Actually, this happened with a client recently.
Donna Lichaw：实际上，最近一位客户就发生过这样的事情。
I was there at an executive team meeting, and someone kept talking over the CEO over and over and over again.
我参加了一次高管团队会议，有人一遍又一遍地谈论首席执行官。
And often when that happens, you bark right back or you get angry or you get quiet or whatever it is, but when you can really fully appreciate, isn't that interesting?
通常当这种情况发生时，你会立即咆哮，或者生气，或者变得安静，或者诸如此类，但是当你真正能够完全欣赏时，这不是很有趣吗？
My shoulders are really tensing up right now.
我的肩膀现在真的很紧张。
Wow.
哇。
Whatever's going on.
不管发生什么事。
You often have more informed...
你常常有更多的信息...
Not often.
不经常。
You will always have more informed, mindful actions that you can take or not take.
您总是可以采取或不采取更明智、更谨慎的行动。
You can't pay me to meditate or anything or do yoga, but mindfulness, yeah, if you could just think to yourself, isn't that interesting?
你不能付钱给我冥想或其他任何事情或做瑜伽，但是正念，是的，如果你能自己思考，那不是很有趣吗？
anytime something extreme happens in life, you will be shocked at what you learn and at what you do accordingly.
每当生活中发生极端的事情时，你都会对你学到的东西以及你相应的做法感到震惊。
Lenny: Very Buddhist, non-judgmental awareness.
Lenny：非常佛教徒，不带评判的意识。
Lenny: Not deciding it's good or bad.
莱尼：不确定是好是坏。
Lenny: Final question.
莱尼：最后一个问题。
I'm surprised you haven't used any Dolly Parton quotes in this conversation.
我很惊讶你在这次谈话中没有引用任何多莉·帕顿的名言。
Clearly in your book, you're a big fan.
从你的书中可以明显看出，你是一个超级粉丝。
Lenny: I'm curious, what's a wisdom or quote that comes to mind that you think of from Dolly Parton that might be helpful?
莱尼：我很好奇，你想到的多莉·帕顿的一句智慧或名言可能会对你有帮助吗？
Donna Lichaw: Yes, and thank you for reminding me, because that was originally what I was going to say, which is one of my...
唐娜·利乔（Donna Lichaw）：是的，谢谢你提醒我，因为这本来就是我要说的，这是我的......
There's so many Dolly quotes.
多莉的名言有很多。
And I think all my favorites are in my book, of course, but one of my favorites is, "Find out who you are and do it on purpose." That's amazing.
当然，我认为我最喜欢的所有内容都在我的书中，但我最喜欢的内容之一是“找出你是谁，并有目的地去做。”太棒了。
Another one, "You don't like the..." I guess my two favorites.
另一句是“你不喜欢……”我想这是我最喜欢的两句。
"You don't like the path you're walking on, pave a new path." What more in life do you need than that?
“你不喜欢现在走的路，那就另辟新路吧。”生活中你还需要什么？
There's all, yeah, Buddhist and Gestalt and mindfulness or whatever, but you could just do what Dolly does and you'll be all good.
是的，有佛教、格式塔、正念或其他什么，但你只要做多莉所做的，你就会一切都好。
Lenny: Donna, thank you so much for being here.
莱尼：唐娜，非常感谢你来到这里。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you if they want to reach out, maybe work with you?
如果人们想联系您或者与您合作，可以在哪里找到您？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Donna Lichaw: Great questions, as always.
Donna Lichaw：一如既往，很好的问题。
The best way to find me is through my website, donnalichaw.com.
找到我的最佳方式是通过我的网站 donnalichaw.com。
And that'll be in the show notes as well.
这也将出现在演出笔记中。
And reach out to me for a conversation.
并联系我进行对话。
One of my superpowers that's also my kryptonite is accessibility.
我的超能力之一也是我的克星就是可访问性。
I'm that author who will always email you back, even though I hate emailing, always email you back within a day if you send me an email about the book.
我是那个总是会给你回电子邮件的作者，尽管我讨厌发电子邮件，但如果你向我发送有关这本书的电子邮件，总是会在一天之内给你回电子邮件。
Same thing about working together.
一起工作也是如此。
I always make time.
我总是腾出时间。
Or even just conversation, I make time for any conversations with interesting people if it is exciting to both of us to make it happen.
或者甚至只是交谈，如果我们双方都感到兴奋的话，我会抽出时间与有趣的人进行任何交谈。
Find me on my website, donnalichaw.com.
在我的网站 donnalichaw.com 上找到我。
I've also got tons of free stuff there that you can download as well.
我还在那里提供了大量免费的东西，您也可以下载。
Everything that we talked about today, a lot of the things that we talked about today are available there to play with as well.
我们今天讨论的所有内容，我们今天讨论的很多内容也可以在那里使用。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
I think we're going to create a lot more superheroes with origin stories, superpowers, kryptonites, missions, impact, all the things you've written about in your book.
我认为我们将创造更多的超级英雄，其中包括起源故事、超能力、氪石、任务、影响，以及你在书中写到的所有内容。
Donna, thank you so much for being here.
唐娜，非常感谢你来到这里。
Donna Lichaw: Thank you, Lenny.
唐娜·利乔：谢谢你，莱尼。
This was a treat.
这是一种享受。
Lenny: Bye, everyone.
莱尼：再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。