"How Revolut trains world-class PMs: The \u201CLocal CEO\u201D model, raw intellect & building\ \ wow products"

Dmitry Zlokazov: Everyone is striving for talented, skillful, smart people.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：每个人都在努力寻找有才华、技术精湛、聪明的人。

Revolut values way more raw intellect and this unquenched hunger to build things rather than experience.

Revolut 更看重的是原始智慧和对构建事物而不是经验的永不满足的渴望。

Lenny Rachitsky: I hear one of the ways you approach early products differently is you guys invest a lot in actually making it good.

Lenny Rachitsky：我听说你们以不同的方式对待早期产品的方式之一是，你们投入了大量资金来真正让它变得更好。

Dmitry Zlokazov: It's not getting traction.

Dmitry Zlokazov：它没有得到关注。

Is it because the underlying idea is wrong?

是因为底层的想法是错误的吗？

Or maybe your product just sucks?

或者也许你的产品很糟糕？

By forcing everyone to build a product that people will love, we kind of cut out this part of uncertainty.

通过强迫每个人打造人们会喜欢的产品，我们就消除了这部分不确定性。

We can cut down the product in terms of functionality to just most critical features, but we will never compromise on the quality and UX and the aesthetics.

我们可以将产品的功能缩减为最关键的功能，但我们永远不会在质量、用户体验和美观上妥协。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything that you've figured out about just how to set up new products for success?

Lenny Rachitsky：关于如何开发新产品以取得成功，您有什么想法吗？

Dmitry Zlokazov: If something is 99% done, it's closer to 0% rather than 100%.

Dmitry Zlokazov：如果某件事完成了 99%，那么它更接近 0%，而不是 100%。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Dmitry Zlokazov.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天，我的客人是德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫。

Dmitry is global head of product at Revolut, which is a finance super app offering customer savings and checking accounts, crypto, investing, joint accounts, even mortgages.

Dmitry 是 Revolut 的全球产品主管，这是一款金融超级应用程序，为客户提供储蓄和支票账户、加密货币、投资、联名账户，甚至抵押贷款。

Not only was it last valued at over $60 billion, but in the research that I've been doing into which companies hire and incubate the best product managers, Revolut was right at the top alongside Palantir and Intercom.

它不仅最后估值超过 600 亿美元，而且在我对哪些公司雇用和培养最好的产品经理进行的研究中，Revolut 与 Palantir 和 Intercom 一起名列前茅。

And so in our conversation, we dig into what Revolut has learned about producing and hiring great product leaders, including a focus on ownership, having people solve really painful and complex problems while making the experience wow and lovable by users.

因此，在我们的对话中，我们深入探讨了 Revolut 在培养和雇用优秀产品领导者方面所学到的知识，包括对所有权的关注，让人们解决真正痛苦和复杂的问题，同时让体验令人惊叹并深受用户喜爱。

Also indexing towards hiring really smart and driven people early in their career versus people with a ton of experience in the space and so much more.

还倾向于招聘真正聪明、在职业生涯早期有驱动力的人，而不是在该领域拥有丰富经验的人等等。

If you're looking for a job that will accelerate your product career or want to help your product team level up, this episode is for you.

如果您正在寻找一份能够加速您的产品职业生涯或希望帮助您的产品团队升级的工作，那么本集适合您。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of Linear, Superhuman, Notion, Perplexity, and Granola.

另外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年的免费线性、超人、概念、困惑和格兰诺拉麦片。

Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click bundle.

请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。

With that, I bring you Dmitry Zlokazov.

接下来，我为您带来德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫。

Lenny Rachitsky: This entire episode is brought to you by Stripe.

Lenny Rachitsky：这整集都是由 Stripe 为您带来的。

There's a reason that I've had more guests on this podcast from Stripe than any other company.

与其他公司相比，我收听 Stripe 播客的人数更多是有原因的。

It's because they hire the best people and they build incredible products.

这是因为他们聘请了最优秀的人才并打造了令人难以置信的产品。

You probably know them for their payments platform, which powers my newsletter, and also companies like NVIDIA and Salesforce and Zoom and DoorDash.

您可能因他们的支付平台（为我的时事通讯提供支持）而认识他们，此外您还认识 NVIDIA、Salesforce、Zoom 和 DoorDash 等公司。

What you may not know is that they have several other products that can help accelerate your revenue, such as Stripe Billing, which powers billing for companies that you may have heard of.

您可能不知道的是，他们还有其他几种可以帮助您增加收入的产品，例如 Stripe Billing，它为您可能听说过的公司提供计费服务。

OpenAI, Anthropic, Figma, Atlassian, and over 300,000 other companies.

OpenAI、Anthropic、Figma、Atlassian 以及超过 300,000 家其他公司。

Stripe Billing lets you bill and manage customers however you want from simple recurring billing to usage-based billing to sales-negotiated contracts.

Stripe Billing 可让您按照自己的意愿计费和管理客户，从简单的定期计费到基于使用情况的计费再到销售协商合同。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's also Stripe's Optimized Checkout suite, which is a plug-and-play super optimized payment flow that natively supports over 100 global dynamic payment methods.

Lenny Rachitsky：还有 Stripe 的 Optimized Checkout 套件，这是一个即插即用的超级优化支付流程，本身支持 100 多种全球动态支付方式。

There's also a product called Link, which is an accelerated checkout experience built specifically to increase your checkout conversion.

还有一款名为 Link 的产品，它是专门为提高结帐转化率而构建的加速结帐体验。

Every single one of the Forbes top 50 AI companies that have a product in the market today use Stripe to monetize it.

如今，福布斯 50 强人工智能公司中每一家在市场上拥有产品的公司都使用 Stripe 来货币化。

Half of Fortune 100 companies use Stripe.

财富 100 强公司中有一半使用 Stripe。

$1.4 trillion flows through Stripe annually, which is equivalent to over 1% of global GDP.

每年有 1.4 万亿美元流经 Stripe，相当于全球 GDP 的 1% 以上。

Use Stripe to handle all of your payment-related needs, billing, manage revenue operations, and launch or invent new business models.

使用 Stripe 处理所有与支付相关的需求、计费、管理收入运营以及启动或发明新的业务模式。

Learn more at stripe.com.

请访问 stripe.com 了解更多信息。

Dmitry, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

德米特里，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Hi, Lenny.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：嗨，莱尼。

I'm happy to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: As you know, I've been doing a bunch of research into which companies hire and create the best product managers, and I've been triangulating this across a bunch of different data points.

Lenny Rachitsky：如你所知，我一直在对哪些公司雇用和培养最好的产品经理进行了大量研究，并且我一直在通过一系列不同的数据点对此进行三角测量。

I've been looking at which companies alumni product managers get promoted most when they leave the company, become chief product officers at the highest rate when they leave the company, become the first PM at a startup, also start their own companies.

我一直在研究哪些公司的校友产品经理在离开公司时晋升最多，在离开公司时成为首席产品官的比例最高，在初创公司成为第一位 PM，也创办了自己的公司。

And when I triangulate it across all these different data points, there's three companies that are kind of sat at the top, you guys, Revolut, Palantir, and Intercom.

当我对所有这些不同的数据点进行三角测量时，有 3 家公司位居榜首，即 Revolut、Palantir 和 Intercom。

Lenny Rachitsky: Clearly you guys are doing something really special.

Lenny Rachitsky：显然你们正在做一些非常特别的事情。

I don't think a lot of people, especially in the US know a ton about Revolut, and so I'm really excited to have you here.

我认为没有很多人，特别是在美国，对 Revolut 了解很多，所以我很高兴您能来到这里。

I'm really excited to basically extract as much wisdom as I can from you about what you guys have figured out in helping in hiring and training product managers.

我真的很高兴能够从你们那里汲取尽可能多的智慧，了解你们在帮助招聘和培训产品经理方面所取得的成果。

So I want to actually start with giving people a slight understanding of what is Revolut.

所以我想首先让人们稍微了解一下 Revolut 是什么。

I think a lot of people in the US especially don't know much about it.

我认为很多人尤其是美国人对此不太了解。

So what's the simplest way to understand what you guys do?

那么了解你们所做的事情的最简单方法是什么？

Dmitry Zlokazov: Revolut challenges banks in 50 different countries and it all started 10 years ago in London.

Dmitry Zlokazov：Revolut 向 50 个不同国家的银行发起挑战，这一切都始于 10 年前的伦敦。

So maybe let me give you a bit of a context, especially for someone based in the US, it's important to understand that European banking landscape is very diverse.

因此，也许让我给您提供一些背景信息，尤其是对于美国的人来说，了解欧洲银行业格局非常多样化非常重要。

In the US if you travel from state to state, things are different, but for example, you always pay in US dollars, right?

在美国，如果您从一个州旅行到另一个州，情况会有所不同，但例如，您总是用美元付款，对吧？

In the UK you pay in British Pound.

在英国，您用英镑支付。

If you travel to mainland Europe, you will pay in Euro, but if you go to Switzerland, you'll pay in Swiss francs.

如果您前往欧洲大陆，您将用欧元支付，但如果您前往瑞士，您将用瑞士法郎支付。

If you go to Sweden, you'll pay in Swedish Krona and so on and so-and-so.

如果你去瑞典，你会用瑞典克朗等支付。

Overall, there are 25 different currencies and every time you were traveling and paying in a different currency, banks were charging you exorbitant fees on top of terrible foreign exchange rates, and that's when Revolut launched as a multi-currency card and people loved it.

总体而言，有 25 种不同的货币，每次您旅行并使用不同的货币付款时，银行除了可怕的外汇汇率之外还要向您收取高昂的费用，就在那时，Revolut 作为多币种卡推出，受到了人们的喜爱。

Dmitry Zlokazov: They loved that Revolut was saving them 50 or 100 euros, but even more so they loved the transparency and simplicity of the product and that's why when we started rolling out more and more products based on those principles, they were quickly getting trust of people.

Dmitry Zlokazov：他们喜欢 Revolut 为他们节省了 50 或 100 欧元，但更重要的是，他们喜欢产品的透明度和简单性，这就是为什么当我们开始推出越来越多基于这些原则的产品时，他们很快就赢得了人们的信任。

They were quickly getting traction.

他们很快就获得了关注。

So that's how P2P transfers appeared, and then frictionless crypto buying and withdrawal to a bank account appeared.

这就是 P2P 转账的出现方式，然后出现了无摩擦的加密货币购买和提取到银行账户的方式。

And then more and more products created products, savings products and so on.

然后越来越多的产品创造了产品、储蓄产品等等。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And then just to give people a few kind of scale of the company, how many employees are there roughly?

然后给大家介绍一下公司的规模，大概有多少员工？

I think the last valuation something around 60 billion.

我认为最后的估值大约在 600 亿左右。

I don't know if you can even comment on that, but just what are some numbers real quick for people to understand the scale of the company at this point?

我不知道你是否可以对此发表评论，但目前有哪些数字可以让人们真正快速了解公司的规模？

Dmitry Zlokazov: The headcount is not something we're trying to increase, to be honest.

Dmitry Zlokazov：说实话，我们并不想增加员工人数。

Actually Revolut tries to stay as lean as possible, but I think it's just that our appetite for growth is so big that I think we're currently at maybe 6 or 7,000 employees.

事实上，Revolut 试图尽可能保持精简，但我认为只是我们对增长的渴望太大了，我认为我们目前可能有 6 或 7,000 名员工。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

So let's get into what you've learned about building an amazing product team and also hiring an amazing product team.

因此，让我们来了解一下您在建立一支出色的产品团队以及雇用一支出色的产品团队方面所学到的知识。

So first of all, you call your product managers product owners, and when we were chatting through initially it was like, "Oh, I see.

所以首先，你称你的产品经理为产品负责人，当我们最初聊天时，就像是，“哦，我明白了。

It's just like a big scrum business," and they just have all these product owners who many times on this podcast people have talked about that's not actually a product manager, but that's not at all how you work.

这就像一个大的 Scrum 业务，”他们只是拥有所有这些产品负责人，他们在这个播客上多次谈到，这实际上并不是产品经理，但这根本不是你的工作方式。

So in this context, product owner's an actual owner.

因此，在这种情况下，产品所有者是实际所有者。

Talk about just the story behind why you call your product managers, product owners.

只谈谈为什么你打电话给你的产品经理、产品负责人背后的故事。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yeah, it's not a scrum term for us, it's just our take on emphasizing how ownership is important, really.

Dmitry Zlokazov：是的，这对我们来说不是一个 Scrum 术语，这只是我们强调所有权的重要性，真的。

So product owners are central to the company and its growth.

因此，产品负责人对于公司及其发展至关重要。

They are end-to-end responsible for the product, for this part of the business, and for their customers to be happy.

他们对产品、这部分业务以及让客户满意负有端到端的责任。

And for that, they do really everything.

为此，他们竭尽全力。

They run the teams, they define which roadmap we need to build to improve certain business metrics, and they also contribute to high-level company strategy, but then most importantly, they execute on it relentlessly and they are ultimate responsible for the product to be shipped and achieve results.

他们管理团队，定义我们需要构建哪些路线图来改进某些业务指标，他们还为公司的高层战略做出贡献，但最重要的是，他们坚持不懈地执行该战略，并对要交付的产品和实现结果负有最终责任。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's always this term of mini-CEO, PM as a mini-CEO, and it feels like in your context, that's actually what you try to do with your product team is they're essentially mini-CEOs.

Lenny Rachitsky：总是有“迷你首席执行官”这个术语，PM 作为迷你首席执行官，感觉就像在你的环境中，这实际上是你试图对你的产品团队做的事情，他们本质上是迷你首席执行官。

They have a lot of power.

他们有很大的权力。

I think engineers, designers report to them.

我认为工程师、设计师向他们汇报。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yeah, correct.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：是的，正确。

Well, I prefer to say local CEO.

嗯，我更喜欢说本地CEO。

Lenny Rachitsky: Local CEO.

Lenny Rachitsky：当地首席执行官。

Okay, let's talk about that.

好吧，我们来谈谈这个吧。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yeah, but that's true.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：是的，但这是事实。

So the way we operate, we have these fully cross-functional teams, meaning they're staffed with all necessary functions, engineers data, analysts, designers, operational managers and so on.

因此，我们的运作方式是，我们拥有这些完全跨职能的团队，这意味着他们配备了所有必要的职能、工程师数据、分析师、设计师、运营经理等。

And we also operate in metrics.

我们也按照指标进行操作。

So everyone has a line manager and a functional manager.

所以每个人都有一个直线经理和一个职能经理。

So product owner is always the line manager for everyone on the team, meaning product owner defines what they need to do, but then functional managers, they define how these things are need to be built and essentially with the right level of quality and so on.

因此，产品负责人始终是团队中每个人的直线经理，这意味着产品负责人定义他们需要做什么，然后职能经理定义这些东西需要如何构建，并且本质上具有正确的质量水平等等。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love this because it's so fun just to learn about such different ways of operating.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这个，因为了解如此不同的操作方式非常有趣。

Another fact that I saw is that there's two types of product owners.

我看到的另一个事实是，有两种类型的产品所有者。

There's kind of like a UX product owner, and then there's a different like technical product owner.

有一种类似于用户体验产品所有者，然后有一种不同的类似技术产品所有者。

Dmitry Zlokazov: And the third type becomes increasingly more important.

Dmitry Zlokazov：第三种类型变得越来越重要。

So the first type is UX product owners.

所以第一类是UX产品所有者。

Then there are technical product owners, and then there are data science product owners.

然后是技术产品所有者，然后是数据科学产品所有者。

So UX product owners are the ones who work on consumer facing part of the product.

因此，用户体验产品负责人是负责产品中面向消费者的部分的人。

Usually they have a great taste for things and they understand what constitutes UX that will work and which things will not work.

通常他们对事物有很好的品味，并且了解什么构成用户体验有效，哪些无效。

So they also have this expertise in the industry.

所以他们也有这个行业的专业知识。

Then tech product owners, they are the ones who delve deepest into details.

然后是技术产品所有者，他们是最深入研究细节的人。

Usually those are former engineers who grew into making decisions and driving business.

通常这些人都是前工程师，后来成长为决策者和推动业务的人。

And the data science product owners are usually former data scientists who decided to grow into management positions, but they're still very hands-on.

数据科学产品负责人通常是前数据科学家，后来决定晋升为管理职位，但他们仍然非常亲力亲为。

Dmitry Zlokazov: And you know what?

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：你知道吗？

There are way more things that are common to each of these three specializations.

这三个专业都有更多的共同点。

So what we see sometimes is people just shifting them because I would say that what defines the specialization is probably 5, 10, 15% while 85 to 90% is common to each one of them.

所以我们有时会看到人们只是在改变它们，因为我想说，定义专业化的可能是 5%、10%、15%，而 85% 到 90% 对他们每个人来说都是共同的。

And those things are, so first of all, being a great problem solver and have a great linear thinking, but also have a creative approach towards nonlinear problems.

首先，这些东西是一个出色的问题解决者，具有出色的线性思维，而且对非线性问题也有创造性的方法。

Then building this context for customer and building empathy towards customer and translating it into the team.

然后为客户建立这种背景，建立对客户的同理心，并将其转化为团队。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Then going down to details very, very deep because in our domain there are no obvious things and you need to get to the root cause of the problem really, really deep to understand what will work and what will not work.

Dmitry Zlokazov：然后非常非常深入地讨论细节，因为在我们的领域中没有明显的事情，你需要非常非常深入地找到问题的根本原因，以了解什么有效，什么无效。

And that means that you also need to be quite technical, even if you are an expert, you still need to often go as deep as sitting with engineers and reading code.

这意味着您还需要具备相当的技术水平，即使您是专家，您仍然需要经常深入地与工程师坐在一起并阅读代码。

And then I would also emphasize the importance of business acumen because we tend to measure and quantify product performance a lot.

然后我还要强调商业头脑的重要性，因为我们倾向于大量衡量和量化产品性能。

And you need to understand, okay, what things will we build that will drive eventually that business metric and that target?

您需要了解，好吧，我们将构建哪些东西来最终推动业务指标和目标？

Lenny Rachitsky: So I love this idea of the product owners having to go really deep.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以我喜欢产品所有者必须深入研究的想法。

I think a lot of people hearing this, they think they can go deep, go deep, really understand the details of what they're working on.

我想很多人听到这个，他们认为他们可以深入，深入，真正理解他们正在做的事情的细节。

I'm curious if there's an example that's illustrative of just what you actually mean here.

我很好奇是否有一个例子可以说明您在这里的实际含义。

Dmitry Zlokazov: For example, to provide the best possible product in every country of presence, we need to have necessary licenses.

Dmitry Zlokazov：例如，为了在每个开展业务的国家/地区提供最好的产品，我们需要拥有必要的许可证。

In Europe, it means that we need to launch local branches of our European bank, for example, a branch for France, a branch for Germany, or a branch for Italy.

在欧洲，这意味着我们需要在欧洲银行设立当地分行，例如法国分行、德国分行或意大利分行。

To launch a branch, you need to fully comply with all necessary regulation.

要开设分支机构，您需要完全遵守所有必要的法规。

You need to report necessary data on customers to various regulators and authorities.

您需要向各个监管机构和当局报告有关客户的必要数据。

You need to register with local payment systems.

您需要在当地支付系统注册。

And each of these things, they have a lot of projects nested within.

每一个东西都嵌套了很多项目。

We have a very lean team of just a few people who need to scope everything and do it at the scale of 50 countries.

我们有一个非常精干的团队，只有几个人，他们需要确定一切范围并在 50 个国家/地区的范围内开展工作。

So the way we do it is we go very deep on example of each of these projects.

因此，我们的做法是深入研究每个项目的示例。

For example, we launched a branch in Ireland, we launched a branch in Netherlands.

例如，我们在爱尔兰设立了分支机构，在荷兰设立了分支机构。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Then we reverse engineered what was the best process to do it, and then we went back up on top level and we said, okay, but what's the ideal framework of doing it at scale?

Dmitry Zlokazov：然后我们对最佳流程进行了逆向工程，然后我们回到顶层，我们说，好吧，但是大规模实施的理想框架是什么？

And then we formalized it into a process really like an algorithmic process with steps and quality gates and assay needs, what people do we need to hire and how soon do we need to start doing that before we want to launch a new country.

然后我们将其正式化为一个非常类似于算法流程的流程，其中包含步骤、质量门控和分析需求，我们需要雇用哪些人员，以及在我们想要启动一个新国家之前我们需要多长时间开始这样做。

Then, so it's not only going deep, but also being flexible and doing this switch between zooming in very deep and then raising on the level of helicopter view and then understanding, okay, so this seems very, very complex in details, but then when you zoom out, how can we simplify it and build a robust process around it, which is scalable?

然后，它不仅要深入，而且要灵活，在放大到非常深的深度和提升直升机视图的水平之间进行切换，然后理解，好吧，所以这在细节上看起来非常非常复杂，但是当你缩小时，我们如何简化它并围绕它构建一个可扩展的强大流程？

And that's something that we have to do a lot.

这是我们必须做的很多事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: As you're talking and we go through this chat, I'm keeping kind of track of what I think is most contributing to your alumni product owners, product managers becoming so successful.

Lenny Rachitsky：当你说话和我们进行这次聊天时，我一直在跟踪我认为对你的校友产品所有者、产品经理取得如此成功最有贡献的因素。

So a couple of things so far that I think are probably contributing to this is one is just having a lot of ownership over what they're building, which leads to building skills to start companies and become leaders at other companies.

到目前为止，我认为可能促成这一点的几件事是，对他们正在构建的东西拥有很大的所有权，这会导致培养创办公司并成为其他公司领导者的技能。

So these product owners that you have are just own a lot and are essentially GMs of whatever product they're working on.

因此，您拥有的这些产品负责人只是拥有很多东西，并且本质上是他们正在开发的任何产品的总经理。

And then there's this depth and complexity where you have to really get good at understanding a problem really deeply.

然后，在深度和复杂性方面，你必须真正擅长真正深入地理解问题。

I imagine many of these people go on to work on something like that later, somewhere else because they've spent all this time, or they just get really good at dealing with complex many layered problems.

我想这些人中的许多人会继续在其他地方从事类似的工作，因为他们已经花了这么多时间，或者他们只是非常擅长处理复杂的多层次问题。

So is there anything else just kind of along those lines as I say that you think is important?

那么，像我所说的那样，还有什么你认为重要的事情吗？

Dmitry Zlokazov: I would probably add an obsession with building wow product.

Dmitry Zlokazov：我可能会痴迷于打造令人惊叹的产品。

Dmitry Zlokazov: I think in FinTech overall, this is probably the most neglected part usually, but it's also a part that we at Revolut, we pay enormous attention to.

Dmitry Zlokazov：我认为在整个金融科技领域，这可能是通常最被忽视的部分，但这也是我们 Revolut 非常关注的部分。

So it's not only when you do a trade in the app or when you send money, it's very important for it to be very fast and cheap process for you so that you don't pay a lot of fees.

因此，不仅当您在应用程序中进行交易或汇款时，对您而言快速且便宜的流程非常重要，这样您就不必支付大量费用。

But we also pay a lot of attention to look and feel of the app and how smooth it is and how frictionless the process.

但我们也非常关注应用程序的外观和感觉，以及它的流畅程度和过程的顺畅程度。

Not only we invest in reducing clicks and optimizing finals, but we also want people to feel that we really cared about them.

我们不仅在减少点击量和优化决赛方面进行投资，而且还希望人们感到我们真正关心他们。

We also want people to feel that we love our customers and we applied extra effort for the product to look great and feel great.

我们还希望人们感受到我们爱我们的客户，并且我们付出了额外的努力让产品看起来很棒并且感觉很棒。

And I hear this a lot from our customers, like the app is something they really love and it helps them solve their problems.

我从我们的客户那里听到很多这样的说法，就像这个应用程序是他们真正喜欢的东西，它可以帮助他们解决问题。

It's at least one of the ingredients of the company's success.

这至少是该公司成功的要素之一。

Dmitry Zlokazov: And I think people that work at Revolut, they built habit of paying attention to these small nuances, small details that make the product lovable.

Dmitry Zlokazov：我认为在 Revolut 工作的人，他们养成了关注这些细微差别和小细节的习惯，这些细微差别和小细节使产品变得可爱。

And then second is handling this context because it's a lot of details where you need to dive, but there are also a lot of dimensions where you need to dive into different details.

其次是处理这个上下文，因为你需要深入研究很多细节，但也有很多维度你需要深入研究不同的细节。

And I think this ability to keep this large context in your mind and consider second order effects and view subjects from multiple angles, I think that this is also a very important skill that people usually train at Revolut.

我认为这种在头脑中记住这个大背景并考虑二阶效应并从多个角度看待主题的能力，我认为这也是人们通常在 Revolut 训练的一项非常重要的技能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

So we have three bullet points on the ingredients of great product managers slash owners that you guys incubate.

因此，我们对你们培养的优秀产品经理削减所有者的要素有三个要点。

On this wow piece, which I love.

关于我喜欢的这件令人惊叹的作品。

How do you operationalize this sort of thing?

您如何实施此类事情？

I imagine a big part of it is hiring people that are really good at this and value building lovable products.

我想其中很大一部分是雇用真正擅长于此并重视打造可爱产品的人。

Is there any way you kind of have a process around making sure the things you ship are wow and lovable?

有没有什么办法可以确保你发布的东西令人惊叹且可爱？

Dmitry Zlokazov: Two things that you need to understand about how Revolut operates is that we operate in small lean teams that are tasked to build products and as I mentioned, and having end-to-end responsibility for products.

Dmitry Zlokazov：关于 Revolut 的运作方式，您需要了解的两件事是，我们在小型精干团队中运作，这些团队的任务是构建产品，正如我提到的，并对产品承担端到端的责任。

And usually they're the ones who build it from zero and then they're growing and developing this product.

通常他们是从零开始构建产品的人，然后他们不断发展和开发该产品。

And then another thing is that company is very flat and hierarchy is very flat.

另一件事是公司非常扁平，层级也非常扁平。

We still have our founders, Nick and Vlad, very hands-on going down to details for every product and every part of the business.

我们的创始人尼克和弗拉德仍然非常亲力亲为，深入了解每一款产品和业务的每一个部分的细节。

And every week they have product reviews with every team giving an opportunity to every product owner present directly to CEO and CTO and show what increment has team achieved in the last week, but also get steering from founders, which is super valuable.

每周他们都会对每个团队进行产品评审，让每个产品负责人都有机会直接向首席执行官和首席技术官展示，展示团队在上周取得的增量，同时也得到创始人的指导，这是非常有价值的。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Essentially founders of the company, they still review a hundred percent of screens that are being shipped and everything that you will see in the app pass this review.

Dmitry Zlokazov：本质上是公司的创始人，他们仍然审查 100% 正在发货的屏幕以及您将在应用程序中看到的所有内容通过此审查。

And there are a lot of eyeballs that were scrutinizing this and thinking of all possible edge cases and nuances that we need to consider to make sure that every single customer will be happy in this product, in this flow.

有很多人在仔细审视这一点，并考虑我们需要考虑的所有可能的边缘情况和细微差别，以确保每个客户都会对这个产品、这个流程感到满意。

Lenny Rachitsky: That seems to be a consistent theme in products that are incredible is the founders are deeply involved in the experience and review everything.

Lenny Rachitsky：这似乎是令人难以置信的产品的一致主题，因为创始人深入参与体验并审查一切。

How many product owners are there at Revolut?

Revolut 有多少位产品负责人？

Just to give people a sense by the way?

只是为了给人一种感觉吗？

Dmitry Zlokazov: Oh, I'm afraid to say it's already more than 150 people, maybe 170.

Dmitry Zlokazov：哦，恐怕已经超过 150 人，也许 170 人。

Lenny Rachitsky: Cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：酷。

That's what I would expect.

这就是我所期望的。

And then you said that there's kind of these three types, there's kind of like the eng type, the PM, traditional type, and there's the data product owner.

然后你说有这三种类型，有工程师类型、PM、传统类型，还有数据产品负责人。

When you hire the UX type of product owner today, is their previous role usually a product manager at another company?

当你今天雇用用户体验类型的产品负责人时，他们以前的角色通常是另一家公司的产品经理吗？

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yes, but I would say that not necessarily it's a very experienced product manager.

Dmitry Zlokazov：是的，但我想说这不一定是一位非常有经验的产品经理。

Well maybe even it's way more important to have this hunger for building things and having the raw intellect.

好吧，也许对建造事物的渴望和拥有原始智慧更重要。

And we always try to find people with these intrinsic traits rather than hiring people who are very experienced but maybe are not super excited about building things.

我们总是试图找到具有这些内在特征的人，而不是雇用那些经验丰富但可能对构建东西不太感兴趣的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: What percentage of your product owners come from internal transfers from other functions?

Lenny Rachitsky：你们的产品所有者中有多少比例来自其他职能部门的内部调动？

Dmitry Zlokazov: It's a quite substantial part of product owners who eventually become very successful by the way.

Dmitry Zlokazov：产品负责人中有相当大一部分人最终变得非常成功。

So it's like a positive self-select, so it means that someone already succeeded in another role.

所以这就像一个积极的自我选择，所以这意味着某人已经在另一个角色上取得了成功。

So it's a guaranteed culture match, it's a guaranteed domain knowledge, and then they simply grow.

因此，这是有保证的文化匹配，这是有保证的领域知识，然后他们就会成长。

Usually it could be operations managers or engineers.

通常可以是运营经理或工程师。

They grow into someone who now manages the team and that's why it's a very successful path.

他们成长为现在管理团队的人，这就是为什么这是一条非常成功的道路。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the other company on the list of top three companies that produce and hire the best PMs, according to the research I've done, Palantir.

Lenny Rachitsky：根据我所做的研究，在培养和聘用最佳产品经理的前三名公司名单上的另一家公司是 Palantir。

I just had someone that was at Palantir for a long time and we talked about exactly all the same questions.

我刚刚在 Palantir 工作了很长时间，我们讨论了完全相同的问题。

And interestingly so far we have kind of these three bullet points in terms of what product owners within Revolut get to do.

有趣的是，到目前为止，我们已经掌握了 Revolut 内产品所有者要做的事情的三个要点。

There's a lot of ownership, there's a lot of depth and complexity, and there's a lot of focus on wow lovable products.

有很多所有权，有很多深度和复杂性，并且有很多关注令人惊叹的可爱产品。

So interestingly at Palantir also tons of ownership, also tons of depth and complexity.

有趣的是，Palantir 还拥有大量的所有权、大量的深度和复杂性。

The other ingredient that I want to ask you about is they also have this concept of a forward deployed engineer where they put an engineer in the office of the company they're building the product from, they sit there building it for them with them.

我想问你的另一个因素是，他们也有前沿部署工程师的概念，他们将一名工程师放在他们正在构建产品的公司的办公室里，他们坐在那里为他们构建产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so there's a lot of skills built in terms of understanding customer problems, talking to customers, getting empathy building, things like that.

Lenny Rachitsky：因此，在理解客户问题、与客户交谈、建立同理心等方面需要培养很多技能。

Is there anything you guys do or focus on around just like talking to customers, the way you approach having your product owners work with customers, understand problems, things like that that might be helpful for people to hear?

你们有没有做或关注的事情，比如与客户交谈，让产品负责人与客户合作、理解问题的方式，诸如此类的事情可能对人们听到有帮助？

Dmitry Zlokazov: For us, it's a bit easy to reach out to customers simply because the customer base is so big, it's more than 50 million people and usually we ourselves are power users of the product.

Dmitry Zlokazov：对我们来说，接触客户有点容易，因为客户群太大了，超过 5000 万人，而且通常我们自己就是产品的高级用户。

We receive our salary into Revolut and then we spend with Revolut, our friends the same.

我们将工资存入 Revolut，然后在 Revolut 上消费，我们的朋友也是如此。

So it's like a no-brainer to talk to people continuously and even if you are not proactive in it, they will reach out.

因此，不断地与人们交谈就像是理所当然的事情，即使你不主动，他们也会伸出援手。

If you have a problem in the product, I guarantee that we know about it very, very soon.

如果您的产品有问题，我保证我们很快就会知道。

We've also built tools for product owners and designers to have an easy access to a panel of users via different tools so that they can just start an interviewing process or a survey or a test of different designs in a few clicks.

我们还为产品所有者和设计师构建了工具，以便通过不同的工具轻松访问用户小组，以便他们只需点击几下即可开始访谈过程或调查或不同设计的测试。

Dmitry Zlokazov: For me, it was very important to build this direct connection to customers because when you delegate such an important thing as customer research and collecting their feedback to someone, you will get a refined filtered version.

Dmitry Zlokazov：对我来说，与客户建立这种直接联系非常重要，因为当你将客户研究和收集他们的反馈这样重要的事情委托给某人时，你将得到一个经过精炼的过滤版本。

You won't get these nuances of how people describe things, which emotions they feel like and so on, and where they think stuck.

你无法理解人们如何描述事物、他们感受到哪些情绪等等以及他们认为卡在哪里的这些细微差别。

It's very easy to lose all those important bytes of information in this process.

在此过程中很容易丢失所有重要的信息字节。

So I'm a strong believer that it's very important to have direct communication channel to customers.

因此，我坚信与客户建立直接沟通渠道非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: As you describe this, it's funny how you guys are at the extreme opposite end of the spectrum from Palantir in terms of how easy it is for you to get feedback.

Lenny Rachitsky：正如您所描述的那样，有趣的是，在获得反馈的容易程度方面，你们与 Palantir 完全相反。

They build stuff for the government and for Airbus where employees would never use a product like that or need a product like that.

他们为政府和空中客车公司制造产品，而员工永远不会使用这样的产品或需要这样的产品。

You guys are getting paid in Revolut using Revolut to pay for things and constantly in the product.

你们在 Revolut 中获得报酬，使用 Revolut 来支付费用，并不断在产品中获得报酬。

And so I could see why there's less of a need for something like a forward deploy engineer.

所以我明白为什么对前沿部署工程师之类的需求较少。

Okay, amazing.

好吧，太棒了。

Let's talk about hiring then.

那我们就来谈谈招聘的事吧。

Is there anything unique about how you approach hiring, sourcing, looking for people, what you look for in people that you think might be contributing to your alumni being so successful down the road?

您在招聘、寻找人才、寻找人才方面有什么独特之处吗？您在寻找哪些人才，您认为这些人才可能有助于您的校友在未来取得如此成功？

Dmitry Zlokazov: I think everyone is striving for talented, skillful smart people and experienced people.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：我认为每个人都在努力寻找有才华、技术精湛、经验丰富的人。

Revolut values way more raw intellect and this unquenched hunger to build things rather than experience.

Revolut 更看重的是原始智慧和对构建事物而不是经验的永不满足的渴望。

So let me maybe bring an example.

让我举个例子。

Imagine we saw this, you hire a great experienced professional with amazing regalia of achieving a lot of things, but then what I see in product, the adoption curve is usually longer than in other functions because product owners by definition are the ones who are the experts in that domain and in all those intricacies of how product is built and how it's used.

想象一下，我们看到了这一点，你聘请了一位经验丰富的专业人士，他取得了很多成就，但我在产品中看到，采用曲线通常比其他功能更长，因为根据定义，产品负责人是该领域以及产品如何构建和如何使用的所有复杂问题的专家。

So what we see from these professionals is they still take a lot of time to ramp up and sometimes they also take time to adapt to new culture or worse, they just rest on their laurels.

所以我们从这些专业人士身上看到的是，他们仍然需要很多时间来提升，有时他们也需要时间来适应新的文化，或更糟糕的是，他们只是固步自封。

But you already have super inflated expectations and usually their compensation is by the way, quite high and which adds up to these expectations.

但你已经有了过高的期望，顺便说一句，通常他们的报酬相当高，这增加了这些期望。

And I myself, after conducting maybe 400 or 500 interviews with product owners at Revolut, I also see this.

而我自己，在对 Revolut 的产品负责人进行了大约 400 或 500 次采访之后，我也看到了这一点。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Unfortunately, professionals with a lot of years of experience from established companies, they don't have this strong urge to change status quo, which by the way will require toil, tears, and sweat.

Dmitry Zlokazov：不幸的是，在老牌公司拥有多年经验的专业人士，他们没有改变现状的强烈愿望，顺便说一句，这需要辛劳、眼泪和汗水。

And that's why even if a candidate doesn't have a lot of years of experience, but they love building things, they've done it, they worked with engineers maybe by the way, maybe in their own startup or one of the best profiles that I've seen is a tech co-founder.

这就是为什么即使候选人没有多年的经验，但他们喜欢建造东西，他们已经做到了，他们可能顺便与工程师一起工作，也许在他们自己的初创公司中，或者我见过的最好的个人资料之一是技术联合创始人。

So I think that's probably the best way to boost career is to go and found something work in a startup, build things yourself or with a very small team, work in all different areas because in startup you have to work in all different areas.

因此，我认为促进职业发展的最佳方式可能是去初创公司找到一些有用的东西，自己或与一个非常小的团队一起构建东西，在所有不同的领域工作，因为在初创公司中你必须在所有不同的领域工作。

And then these kind of people, they really thrive at Revolut and even if they don't have a lot of years of experience, they actually attack a specific problem.

这些人在 Revolut 确实茁壮成长，即使他们没有多年的经验，他们也会真正解决特定的问题。

Dmitry Zlokazov: They have a sense of what can cause customer pain, and they are very fast moving to solve it quickly and then that's how they get appreciation from everyone around.

Dmitry Zlokazov：他们知道什么会导致客户痛苦，并且他们会快速采取行动以快速解决问题，这就是他们如何获得周围每个人的赞赏。

The team starts respecting these people because they solve some specific problem and then they take another problem, they solve it and then they take another and that's how they grow in the company.

团队开始尊重这些人，因为他们解决了一些特定的问题，然后他们解决了另一个问题，他们解决了它，然后他们解决了另一个问题，这就是他们在公司成长的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Essentially what I'm hearing is you hire kind of more junior or super high raw, intellect driven, passionate, how do you describe, hungry people?

Lenny Rachitsky：从本质上讲，我听到的是你们雇佣了一些初级或超高的原始人才，智力驱动的，充满激情的，你如何形容饥饿的人？

And this explains why so many people get promoted so much more that leave Revolut because they start their earlier in their career and you help them learn all these skills, ownership, depth, understanding, working in complex environments, building amazing products.

这就解释了为什么这么多人得到了更多的晋升而离开了 Revolut，因为他们在职业生涯的早期就开始了，而你帮助他们学习所有这些技能、所有权、深度、理解、在复杂的环境中工作、构建令人惊叹的产品。

So this all makes a lot of sense.

所以这一切都很有意义。

Is there anything you figured out about where to find these people?

您知道在哪里可以找到这些人吗？

Because this is the dream, hire amazingly smart people that are super driven that nobody knows about yet and then make them awesome.

因为这是梦想，所以雇佣非常聪明、有超强动力但无人知晓的人，然后让他们变得出色。

Have you found anything about where to source and find these folks?

你有没有找到关于在哪里寻找和找到这些人的信息？

Dmitry Zlokazov: So the way we work, we have a weekly catch-ups with the recruitment team.

Dmitry Zlokazov：按照我们的工作方式，我们每周都会与招聘团队进行交流。

So essentially they are also a team that runs in sprints.

所以本质上他们也是一个冲刺跑的团队。

So every sprint we define what do we want to focus on, which areas, which companies.

因此，每次冲刺我们都会定义我们要关注什么、哪些领域、哪些公司。

One of the great sources is actually looking into products and apps that we love ourselves.

重要的来源之一实际上是研究我们自己喜欢的产品和应用程序。

So if someone built a great product, then it's likely a high performer.

因此，如果有人开发了一款出色的产品，那么它很可能是一款高性能产品。

So usually we provide some great products in specific areas that are more important for us to the sourcing team and they just try to source targeting those companies.

因此，通常我们会在特定领域提供一些优秀的产品，这些产品对我们的采购团队来说更重要，他们只是尝试针对这些公司进行采购。

It could be also different areas.

也可能是不同的领域。

It could be even schools, like good schools.

甚至可以是学校，比如好学校。

And so it varies from sprint to sprint.

因此，每个冲刺的情况都不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: That makes sense.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是有道理的。

Gokul had this really good piece of advice, I think it was on the podcast, if not he tweeted about it, where you look at there's successful companies, but then there's also what function in that company is the key to their success.

戈库尔提出了一条非常好的建议，我认为这是在播客上，如果不是他在推特上提到的，你会看到那里有成功的公司，但也有该公司的职能是他们成功的关键。

And so you want to go like a company A for sales, company B for customer support, company C for design.

因此，您希望像 A 公司那样进行销售，B 公司进行客户支持，C 公司进行设计。

And so it sounds like that's kind of the way you guys think about it a little bit.

听起来你们就是这么想的。

Yeah, very cool.

是的，非常酷。

Okay.

好的。

I love how we're uncovering and we're uncovering this mystery.

我喜欢我们如何揭开这个谜团。

Lenny Rachitsky: This entire episode is brought to you by Stripe.

Lenny Rachitsky：这整集都是由 Stripe 为您带来的。

Every single one of the Forbes top 50 AI companies that has a product in the market today uses Stripe to monetize it.

如今，福布斯 50 强人工智能公司中每一家在市场上拥有产品的公司都使用 Stripe 来货币化。

$1.4 trillion flows through Stripe annually, which is equivalent to over 1% of the entire global GDP.

每年有 1.4 万亿美元流经 Stripe，相当于全球 GDP 的 1% 以上。

And Stripe isn't just a payments platform.

Stripe 不仅仅是一个支付平台。

They also have a product called Stripe Billing, which powers billing for companies that you may have heard of, OpenAI, Anthropic, Figma, Atlassian, and over 300,000 other companies.

他们还有一款名为 Stripe Billing 的产品，可为您可能听说过的公司（OpenAI、Anthropic、Figma、Atlassian 以及超过 300,000 家其他公司）提供计费服务。

Stripe Billing lets you bill and manage customers no matter your pricing model from simple recurring billing to usage-based billing to sales negotiated contracts.

Stripe Billing 允许您对客户进行计费和管理，无论您的定价模式如何，从简单的定期计费到基于使用情况的计费再到销售协商合同。

Collect and retain more revenue, automate revenue management workflows, and accept payments globally.

收集并保留更多收入，自动化收入管理工作流程，并在全球范围内接受付款。

Use Stripe to handle all of your payment related needs, including billing, revenue operations, checkout flows, or simply launching or inventing new business models.

使用 Stripe 处理所有与支付相关的需求，包括计费、收入运营、结账流程，或者只是启动或发明新的业务模式。

Learn all the ways that Stripe can grow revenue for your business at stripe.com.

访问 stripe.com，了解 Stripe 为您的企业增加收入的所有方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me go in a different direction and see if there's more to learn here.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我换个方向，看看这里是否还有更多东西需要学习。

When it comes to running your teams, is there something that is kind of fairly contrarian in how you approach running the product team that is maybe not how other companies operate that you think is key to your success?

当谈到管理你的团队时，你的产品团队管理方式是否有一种相当逆向的做法，而你认为​​其他公司的运作方式可能不是你成功的关键？

Dmitry Zlokazov: I've changed in how I operate after I joined Revolut probably because Revolut is a founder-led company and probably it's because it's self-led, and also because my role is quite spread across many things.

Dmitry Zlokazov：加入 Revolut 后，我​​的运营方式发生了变化，可能是因为 Revolut 是一家创始人领导的公司，也可能是因为它是自我领导的，也可能是因为我的角色涉及很多方面。

So my role at Revolut is leading product function across company, but also leading retail, which is a core part of Revolut business.

因此，我在 Revolut 的职责是领导整个公司的产品功能，同时也领导零售业，这是 Revolut 业务的核心部分。

And it's very easy to be spread thinly across all those domains and catching up with 50 or 70 projects that are being executed simultaneously, which would mean that you will just spend your entire week just catching up on statuses, not really adding value to anyone, but it's also scary to not do it because what if there are some things going wrong and you won't be able to stop it or steer in a better direction.

而且很容易分散在所有这些领域并赶上同时执行的 50 或 70 个项目，这意味着您将花费整个星期来赶上状态，而不是真正为任何人增加价值，但不这样做也很可怕，因为如果出现一些问题并且您将无法阻止它或引导到更好的方向怎么办？

Dmitry Zlokazov: So I think that's why also a lot of managers, especially in senior positions, they kind of stay high level and they don't go very deep into details.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：所以我认为这就是为什么很多经理，尤其是高级职位的经理，他们保持高水平，并且不深入细节。

But how we did differently at Revolut is to go very deep into details.

但我们在 Revolut 的不同做法是深入细节。

We take maybe 7 or 10 projects which are most impactful for customers right now.

我们可能会采取 7 或 10 个目前对客户影响最大的项目。

And we go super deep into them, really, really deep sitting with engineers like reading code level and understanding, okay, how it's built exactly and what's the underlying issue.

我们非常深入地研究它们，真的非常深入地与工程师坐在一起，例如阅读代码级别并理解，好吧，它是如何构建的以及根本问题是什么。

And you could think that, okay, but what about others?

你可能会这么想，好吧，但是其他人呢？

Let's say 50 or 60 items that are being executed.

假设正在执行 50 或 60 个项目。

But the thing is that it actually, it's counterintuitive, but it works really well because first of all, teams, they talk to each other, there are formal and informal ways of communicating through meetups or just meeting in the office and they know which areas are being scrutinized right now and which team is being scrutinized.

但事实是，它实际上是违反直觉的，但它确实有效，因为首先，团队，他们互相交谈，有正式和非正式的沟通方式，通过聚会或在办公室开会，他们知道现在正在审查哪些领域以及哪个团队正在接受审查。

Dmitry Zlokazov: And it also gives information on what are the current priorities in the company.

Dmitry Zlokazov：它还提供了有关公司当前优先事项的信息。

But in addition, it's signaled to other teams that if they are not proactively executing things on the expected level, paying attention to all the details and being meticulous in all those details, especially in quality, they will be the ones that will be reviewed to a such deep level, next phase, next cycle.

但除此之外，它还向其他团队发出信号，如果他们没有按照预期的水平主动执行事情，关注所有细节，对所有这些细节一丝不苟，特别是在质量方面，他们将是下一个阶段、下一个周期进行如此深层次审查的人。

So as a result, it also builds a great discipline.

因此，它也建立了一个伟大的学科。

And since Revolut is such a high concentration of very ambitious people who thrive for being best versions of themselves and grow, and it's very important for them to prove that they can deliver great things and build next great company.

由于 Revolut 聚集了一批雄心勃勃的人才，他们致力于成为最好的自己并不断成长，因此证明自己能够交付伟大的事业并打造下一个伟大的公司对他们来说非常重要。

As a result, they do everything to operate autonomously.

因此，他们尽一切努力自主运作。

And when you start diving deep into details, you see that everything is fine, you see their modus operandi and you can understand, okay, if this team is on good track or not on good track.

当你开始深入研究细节时，你会发现一切都很好，你会看到他们的运作方式，并且你可以理解，好吧，这个团队是否处于良好的轨道上。

And if it's not on good track, it means that it probably will be one of your next areas as of focus.

如果进展不顺利，则意味着它可能会成为您下一个重点关注的领域之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So what I'm hearing is you said there's 50 to 60 things kind of projects being built at once.

我听到的是你说有 50 到 60 个项目同时建设。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Maybe closer to a hundred, actually.

Dmitry Zlokazov：实际上可能接近一百。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Okay.

好的。

So there's like a hundred things happening at any point like features being built, products being launched, and this is you and the founders choose 7 to 10 to focus on, or is it just you?

因此，任何时候都会发生一百件事，例如正在构建的功能、正在推出的产品，这是您和创始人选择关注的 7 到 10 件事，还是只有您？

Lenny Rachitsky: Just you.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：只有你。

Okay.

好的。

And by the way, do you have a leadership team that you're a part of with a design lead or is it just you basically at the top?

顺便问一下，您是否拥有一个由您担任设计主管的领导团队，或者基本上只有您处于最高层？

Dmitry Zlokazov: So the way it's structured, my responsibility is a product function.

Dmitry Zlokazov：按照其结构方式，我的职责是产品功能。

We also have a head of design function.

我们还有一位设计职能主管。

It's also part of my team, but then all the other functions, they are separate like engineering and data function, and all of them report directly into a CEO.

它也是我团队的一部分，但所有其他职能，它们都是独立的，例如工程和数据职能，并且所有这些职能都直接向首席执行官报告。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

Okay.

好的。

So out of a hundred things you choose, here's the 7 to 10 things I'm going to go deep on.

因此，在您选择的一百件事中，我将深入探讨以下 7 到 10 件事。

These are the things that matter most to the business that if they don't go well, it'll have the most downside.

这些是对企业最重要的事情，如果进展不顺利，就会带来最大的负面影响。

And then you basically said you sit next to the engineers, you get really involved in every detail.

然后你基本上说你坐在工程师旁边，你真正参与了每一个细节。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

That is definitely counterintuitive.

这绝对是违反直觉的。

We had Brian Chesky in the podcast and the way he approached this problem is he just cut down how many things happen at Airbnb because he wants to be involved in everything.

我们的播客中有布莱恩·切斯基 (Brian Chesky)，他解决这个问题的方法是减少 Airbnb 发生的事情，因为他想参与所有事情。

And so I think it's cool to hear a different approach where we can still do a lot of stuff, but I'm going to choose, I'm going to go deep on the things that matter most.

所以我认为听到不同的方法很酷，我们仍然可以做很多事情，但我会选择，我会深入研究最重要的事情。

Dmitry Zlokazov: No, I think we'll never cut down things, it's just the appetite for growth and also entrepreneurial approach in the company is so high that we'll never allow ourselves to give up on some great opportunities, but also this approach is way more scalable.

Dmitry Zlokazov：不，我认为我们永远不会削减东西，只是公司对增长的兴趣和创业精神如此之高，我们永远不会允许自己放弃一些绝佳的机会，而且这种方法更具可扩展性。

So while leadership and obviously founders themselves keep everyone accountable, go deep into details, it doesn't mean that they micromanage everyone.

因此，虽然领导层和创始人本身让每个人都负起责任，深入细节，但这并不意味着他们对每个人进行微观管理。

That's actually a very important thing.

这其实是一件非常重要的事情。

So the ideal position for any product owner is to be fully autonomous.

因此，对于任何产品所有者来说，理想的定位就是完全自主。

And again, it doesn't mean that you will never be challenged, but if when you're challenged, you can show all the logic behind decisions you've made behind the roadmap.

再说一遍，这并不意味着您永远不会受到挑战，但是如果当您受到挑战时，您可以展示您在路线图背后做出的决策背后的所有逻辑。

And even if metrics are not yet there, you will still let's say have this credit of trust to keep building things the way you want to build them.

即使指标还不存在，您仍然可以说拥有这种信任信用，可以继续按照您想要的方式构建事物。

Eventually, yeah, you will be presenting the outputs of your activity on these weekly product reviews, but again, it's not a micromanagement either.

最终，是的，您将在每周的产品评论中展示您的活动成果，但同样，这也不是微观管理。

It's more like, let's say a last line of control to make sure that what we're building all makes sense and that's value and is thoroughly thought in all details.

它更像是最后一道控制线，以确保我们正在构建的一切都有意义、有价值，并且在所有细节上都得到了彻底的考虑。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then you said still every screen that is shipped, the founders review at some point, so it's not like someone's shipping stuff without the founders seeing it in some form.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后你说，仍然是每一个发货的屏幕，创始人都会在某个时候进行审查，所以这并不像某人在发货时创始人没有以某种形式看到它。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：是的，是的，完全正确。

They have a full overview over everything, but also it allows us to build so many things because there is actually little micromanagement.

他们对一切都有全面的概述，而且它也让我们能够构建很多东西，因为实际上几乎没有微观管理。

If founders had to be involved into everything, they had to cut things down.

如果创始人必须参与所有事情，他们就必须减少事情。

But by giving people autonomy, they actually boost company growth.

但通过给予人们自主权，他们实际上促进了公司的发展。

And as a result, I think Revolut is a strong outlier in the industry in terms of how many products being shipped and how fast they shipped.

因此，我认为就发货数量和发货速度而言，Revolut 是行业中的佼佼者。

Another thing here is what I mentioned previously is us investing heavily into platform so that every solution is scalable from the get go so that we don't have any custom solutions.

另一件事是我之前提到的，我们对平台进行了大量投资，以便每个解决方案从一开始就可以扩展，这样我们就没有任何自定义解决方案。

And for example, take our credit team, they ship new products like loans or credit cards in the country literally every month.

例如，以我们的信贷团队为例，他们几乎每个月都会在该国推出贷款或信用卡等新产品。

And it is just maybe 300 people.

大概只有 300 人。

And I think that a credit division in an incumbent bank is maybe 2 or 3000 people building just credit products for a single country.

我认为现有银行的信贷部门可能有 2 到 3000 人，专门为一个国家开发信贷产品。

Dmitry Zlokazov: And our team is building it for 50 countries.

Dmitry Zlokazov：我们的团队正在为 50 个国家/地区构建它。

And yeah, it's enabled through this approach with platforms which we build on top of small lean teams which are fully equipped with necessary functions and also have autonomy in defining what they're building and the flat hierarchy with everyone being accountable and founders having direct view of everyone and intervening if necessary.

是的，它是通过这种方法实现的，我们在小型精益团队之上构建平台，这些团队完全配备了必要的功能，并且在定义他们正在构建的内容和扁平层次结构方面拥有自主权，每个人都负责，创始人可以直接了解每个人并在必要时进行干预。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to give people a list of the things you guys do.

Lenny Rachitsky：我将向人们列出你们所做的事情。

I didn't do this at the beginning because it would take too long, but you talk about all the products you're building and all the things that's going on.

我一开始并没有这样做，因为这会花费太长时间，但你谈论了你正在构建的所有产品以及正在发生的所有事情。

So I have a list here.

所以我这里有一个清单。

It's probably incomplete, but just to give people a sense, so you guys have credit cards, debit cards, savings accounts, multi-currency accounts, domestic international transfers, joint accounts, minor accounts for less than 18 years old, stock trading, cryptocurrency purchasing, loans.

它可能不完整，但只是为了给人们一个感觉，所以你们有信用卡、借记卡、储蓄账户、多币种账户、国内国际转账、联名账户、18岁以下的未成年人账户、股票交易、加密货币购买、贷款。

Is there anything big I missed?

我错过了什么大事吗？

Dmitry Zlokazov: I mean, some of those things are a huge by itself, let's say stock trading.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：我的意思是，其中一些事情本身就很巨大，比如说股票交易。

It's not just stocks, it's also ETFs, bonds, and we're working on tax efficient accounts in different countries and crypto.

不仅仅是股票，还有 ETF、债券，我们正在研究不同国家和加密货币的节税账户。

We also allow staking crypto for example, we have on-ramp, off-ramp products, we have acquiring products.

我们还允许质押加密货币，例如，我们有入口、出口产品，我们有收购产品。

On credit, we have loans, we have a buy now per later product, we even launched mortgages.

在信贷方面，我们有贷款，我们有先买后买的产品，我们甚至推出了抵押贷款。

We launched first mortgages in Albania recently.

我们最近在阿尔巴尼亚推出了第一批抵押贷款。

Lenny Rachitsky: And then all of these across 50 different currencies and countries.

Lenny Rachitsky：然后所有这些都跨越 50 种不同的货币和国家。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yeah, 50 different jurisdictions each with its own regulation, with its own requirements.

Dmitry Zlokazov：是的，50 个不同的司法管辖区每个都有自己的法规和要求。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, boy.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：噢，孩子。

It's a good example of Paul Graham has this concept of schlep blindness or schlepping where people want to avoid hard problems, but that's where the big opportunities are, solving really gnarly, painful problems.

这是保罗·格雷厄姆（Paul Graham）的一个很好的例子，他提出了“拖沓盲目”或“拖拖拉拉”的概念，人们想要避免困难的问题，但这正是巨大的机会所在，可以解决真正棘手的、痛苦的问题。

And that's basically what you guys did.

这基本上就是你们所做的。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yeah, that's one of the things that excites me maybe the most at Revolut.

Dmitry Zlokazov：是的，这可能是 Revolut 最令我兴奋的事情之一。

The market is so big and there are still a lot of very inefficient players, and as a result, customers have a lot of problems that are unsolved.

市场这么大，仍然存在很多效率很低的参与者，导致客户有很多问题没有解决。

While we grow insanely and I think will soon be...

当我们疯狂成长时，我想很快就会……

When I joined, we had maybe just slightly north to 20 million customers.

当我加入时，我们的客户数量可能略高于 2000 万。

Now we are 50 million customers.

现在我们有 5000 万客户。

Soon we'll be at 100 million customers.

很快我们的客户数量将达到 1 亿。

The degree of surrounding each customer with the ecosystem of our products extends a lot.

我们产品的生态系统包围每个客户的程度大大扩展。

So they become more and more people start using Revolut as their main bank account.

因此，越来越多的人开始使用 Revolut 作为他们的主要银行账户。

They start receiving their salary into Revolut, holding their savings into Revolut because they love the product more.

他们开始将工资存入 Revolut，并将积蓄存入 Revolut，因为他们更喜欢该产品。

And so we can easily do another, I don't know, 2, 3X, 4X in customer base growth, but we can also do another 10X growth in how actively these people are using the product.

因此，我们可以轻松地实现另一个（我不知道）客户群增长 2 倍、3 倍、4 倍，但我们也可以使这些人使用该产品的积极性再增长 10 倍。

So it's let's say what, 30, 40X to current, 45 billion valuation.

那么，我们可以说，目前 450 亿美元估值的 30 倍、40 倍。

Right?

正确的？

So it's a like a trillion-dollar company easily.

所以它很容易成为一家万亿美元的公司。

Lenny Rachitsky: And on that note, I mean what I'm hearing is it's still a good time to join.

Lenny Rachitsky：就此而言，我的意思是，我听到的是，现在仍然是加入的好时机。

There's a massive upside.

有巨大的上升空间。

So I know you guys are hiring, we'll just note that real quick.

所以我知道你们正在招聘，我们会很快注意到这一点。

You're hiring product owners and a bunch of other roles, I imagine?

我想你们正在招聘产品负责人和许多其他角色？

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yeah, yeah.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：是的，是的。

Well, as someone who owns the product function, I'm especially interested in product owners obviously, but we hire a lot of roles.

嗯，作为负责产品功能的人，我显然对产品负责人特别感兴趣，但我们雇佣了很多角色。

I think we have maybe 3 or 400 open positions currently.

我认为我们目前可能有 3 或 400 个空缺职位。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh my God.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：天啊。

Okay.

好的。

I want to talk a bit about new stuff that you work on.

我想谈谈你正在做的新事情。

So new products that you decide to invest in.

您决定投资的新产品。

Is there anything that you've figured out about just how to set up new products for success?

关于如何开发新产品以取得成功，您有什么想法吗？

Because a lot of the stuff we've been talking about is staying on top of stuff that you're iterating on and making better.

因为我们一直在谈论的很多东西都是在你正在迭代和改进的东西之上。

What have you learned about just helping new products succeed?

关于帮助新产品取得成功，您学到了什么？

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yeah, so we launched quite a few products that you actually maybe wouldn't expect from a bank starting with crypto that was insanely successful, but also non-financial services like booking a hotel through Revolut app, our loyalty program, rev points, which is sort of disrupting European market where people don't get great benefits from spending with card.

Dmitry Zlokazov：是的，所以我们推出了很多产品，你实际上可能不会想到银行会从加密货币开始，取得了巨大的成功，但也推出了非金融服务，例如通过 Revolut 应用程序预订酒店、我们的忠诚度计划、转速积分，这在某种程度上扰乱了欧洲市场，因为人们无法从用卡消费中获得巨大好处。

In the US you can easily get, like what?

在美国你很容易就能得到，比如什么？

2% cashback with a credit card or in some sort of point.

使用信用卡或某种积分可获得 2% 的现金返还。

In Europe they don't have it.

在欧洲他们没有。

And we are actually the first to build a program on card spend rewarding people with really meaningful or monetary rewards.

事实上，我们是第一个制定卡消费计划的公司，为人们提供真正有意义的奖励或金钱奖励。

In the manner that I described.

按照我描述的方式。

We understood, okay, what's the recipe of this success to then scale it and reproduce?

我们明白了，好吧，这种成功的秘诀是什么，然后才能扩大规模并复制？

So we built a new bets framework and essentially everyone can come up with a new idea.

因此，我们建立了一个新的投注框架，基本上每个人都可以想出新的想法。

It could be a product owner, but it could be anyone, and they need to show some key important things which you usually can expect from a startup like market is there, business case is there.

它可以是产品负责人，但也可以是任何人，他们需要展示一些你通常可以从初创公司那里得到的关键重要信息，比如市场在那里，商业案例在那里。

Dmitry Zlokazov: We know that we can do it way better than competitors leverage and for example, some things that we have obviously some concepts of product and then what customer problem we're solving and so on.

Dmitry Zlokazov：我们知道我们可以比竞争对手做得更好，例如，我们显然有一些产品概念，然后我们正在解决哪些客户问题等等。

And there is very little bureaucracy, again, thanks to having founder hands-on, we can easily get a green light on anything, start launching it quickly.

而且官僚主义也很少，再次感谢创始人的亲力亲为，我们可以轻松地批准任何事情，并快速开始启动它。

What we do is assemble same lean team with just a few people to build first version and then iterate and iterate.

我们所做的就是用几个人组建同样的精益团队来构建第一个版本，然后迭代再迭代。

And the main thing here is to build first version very quickly to get feedback, but then not scale it before you polish the product.

这里最重要的是非常快速地构建第一个版本以获得反馈，但在完善产品之前不要扩展它。

But then after we make sure that all metrics are fine, retention is great, we start scaling it.

但在我们确保所有指标都很好、保留率很高之后，我们开始扩展它。

And the good news is that it can be instantly multiplied by our 50 million customer base and get great traction.

好消息是，它可以立即乘以我们的 5000 万客户群，并获得巨大的吸引力。

So for example, one of the products that you mentioned, joint accounts essentially an account that you could have with a significant other one was one of the recently launched feature and it grew significantly and now it has over a million active users.

例如，您提到的产品之一，联合帐户本质上是您可以与另一个重要帐户一起拥有的帐户，是最近推出的功能之一，并且它增长显着，现在拥有超过一百万的活跃用户。

Lenny Rachitsky: I hear one of the ways you kind of approach these early products differently is you guys invest a lot in actually making it good and not just like a scrappy MVP.

Lenny Rachitsky：我听说你们以不同的方式处理这些早期产品的方式之一是，你们投入了大量资金来真正使其变得更好，而不仅仅是像一个斗志旺盛的 MVP。

Does that ring a bell?

这是否敲响了警钟？

Does that resonate?

这引起共鸣吗？

Dmitry Zlokazov: Indeed, that's what I may be meant by keeping your first version narrowed down to a small user base.

Dmitry Zlokazov：确实，这就是我将第一个版本缩小到较小的用户群的意思。

But even in this case, we still make sure that the product is well.

但即使在这种情况下，我们仍然确保产品是好的。

So no one is excluded from this requirement of building a super polished product.

因此，没有人被排除在构建超级抛光产品的这一要求之外。

It takes time, but it pays off.

这需要时间，但会有回报。

The thing is that when you launch a scrappy version and it's not getting traction, how do you know?

问题是，当你推出一个杂乱的版本但它没有受到关注时，你怎么知道呢？

Is it because the underlying idea is wrong or maybe your product just sucks and you need to improve it?

是因为潜在的想法是错误的，还是因为你的产品很糟糕，你需要改进它？

So by forcing everyone to build a product that people will love by building a wow product, we kind of cut out this part of uncertainty.

因此，通过强迫每个人通过打造令人惊叹的产品来打造人们会喜欢的产品，我们就消除了这部分不确定性。

So bottom line, we can cut down the product in terms of functionality to just most critical features, but we will never compromise on the quality and UX and the aesthetics.

因此，最重要的是，我们可以将产品的功能削减到最关键的功能，但我们永远不会在质量、用户体验和美观上妥协。

Lenny Rachitsky: An interesting advantage you guys have that I'm realizing as you talk is most of the stuff you launch is stuff that is clearly something people will want because it's stuff that they get other places, but they get the advantages of it being integrated into all the other features and products you have.

Lenny Rachitsky：你们有一个有趣的优势，我在你们讲话时意识到，你们推出的大部分产品显然是人们想要的东西，因为这些东西是他们从其他地方获得的，但他们得到了将其集成到你们拥有的所有其他功能和产品中的优势。

So it's like a cryptocurrency product.

所以它就像一个加密货币产品。

It's kind of like, okay, yeah, people would love a great cryptocurrency product built into this or joint accounts.

这有点像，好吧，是的，人们会喜欢这个或联合账户中内置的出色的加密货币产品。

So there's almost like a benefit of just like, okay, the people will want this, now let's just make it work really well with everything else we got and not hurt.

所以这几乎是一个好处，好吧，人们会想要这个，现在让我们让它与我们拥有的其他一切很好地配合，而不受到伤害。

You almost don't need to be the best at every product, although it sounds like you still try to be the best.

你几乎不需要在每件产品上都做到最好，尽管听起来你仍然试图成为最好的。

Dmitry Zlokazov: But we must be the best.

Dmitry Zlokazov：但我们必须是最好的。

Yeah, a hundred percent.

是的，百分之一百。

Lenny Rachitsky: But there's also, if you don't have the best joint account, but all the other stuff is awesome, people are like, "All right, it's fine.

Lenny Rachitsky：但是，如果你没有最好的联名账户，但所有其他东西都很棒，人们会说，“好吧，没关系。

It just makes my life easier." But tell me what I might be missing because-

它只是让我的生活更轻松。”但请告诉我我可能会错过什么，因为-

Dmitry Zlokazov: So I think there are those kind of table stakes that we're building that anyone would expect from a bank.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：所以我认为我们正在建立任何人都期望从银行获得的那种赌注。

For example, savings account, right?

例如，储蓄账户，对吧？

It's just a basic thing that if a bank is not providing savings account, you wouldn't even consider it.

这是一个基本的事情，如果银行不提供储蓄账户，你甚至不会考虑它。

But then we make sure that our rates are very competitive, if not the best.

但我们会确保我们的价格即使不是最好的，也是非常有竞争力的。

Then we make sure that there is no bad UX.

然后我们确保没有糟糕的用户体验。

Some banks, for example, they don't allow you to withdraw instantly and there are delays or they don't pay interest on daily basis.

例如，有些银行不允许您立即取款，并且存在延迟或不按日支付利息。

We will never do that.

我们永远不会那样做。

We will allow you if you want to move money out, you will be able to do it.

如果您想将资金转出，我们将允许您这样做。

You won't lose any interest.

你不会失去任何兴趣。

And interest is being paid daily and this is a fully flexible product.

利息每天支付，这是一个完全灵活的产品。

And then on top of it, what I would call maybe some delighters is we will allow you to open the savings account in many currencies.

最重要的是，我所说的也许是一些令人高兴的事情是我们将允许您以多种货币开设储蓄账户。

Dmitry Zlokazov: So we want to add different currencies because now interest rates are going down, so people might find it valuable to open a savings account in, for example, I know in Europe, Swedish Krona interest rates are higher than Europe, but it could be even something like Brazilian Real with 12% interest rate versus 2 or 3% on euros.

Dmitry Zlokazov：所以我们想添加不同的货币，因为现在利率正在下降，所以人们可能会发现在欧洲开设储蓄账户很有价值，例如，我知道在欧洲，瑞典克朗的利率高于欧洲，但甚至可能是像巴西雷亚尔这样的货币，利率为 12%，而欧元的利率为 2% 或 3%。

And then as the cherry on top, there is this all that in an amazing, you have very smooth, you can set custom wallpapers, you can set goals, you can automate a spare change towards your savings and all those features.

然后，作为顶部的樱桃，这一切都令人惊叹，您拥有非常流畅的功能，您可以设置自定义壁纸，您可以设定目标，您可以自动对您的储蓄进行备用更改以及所有这些功能。

So there is an underlying basic fundamental layer that where you need to be just on par with competition, but then there are a lot of things on top that just make people love your product way more.

因此，有一个基本的基本层，您需要在其中与竞争对手保持同等水平，但除此之外还有很多东西可以让人们更喜欢您的产品。

And obviously there are a lot of synergies in between those things.

显然，这些事情之间存在很多协同作用。

So yeah, thinking of crypto, you can just receive crypto on your wallet and then you can just instantly convert it to cash on your account or just spend it with your card.

所以，是的，考虑到加密货币，您可以在钱包上接收加密货币，然后您可以立即将其转换为您帐户上的现金，或者直接用您的卡消费。

How amazing can it be?

能有多神奇呢？

Just buy a coffee with Ethereum.

只需用以太坊买一杯咖啡即可。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

Okay, let me take this opportunity to try to summarize what I've learned from you so far in terms of what you guys have figured out about creating incredible product leaders.

好吧，让我借此机会尝试总结一下到目前为止我从你们那里学到的东西，即你们在创造令人难以置信的产品领导者方面的想法。

They go on to do wonderful things and basically one of the top three most successful companies at this.

他们继续做一些很棒的事情，基本上是这方面最成功的三大公司之一。

So there's kind of these two buckets as I talked to you and the Palantir guy, there's kind of like the hiring piece and then there's what you do to help incubate this kind of forge for incredible product leaders.

因此，当我与您和 Palantir 人员交谈时，有这两个部分，有一些类似于招聘部分，然后您会采取哪些措施来帮助培育这种令人难以置信的产品领导者。

So in what you do internally, kind of the four bullet points I've got here is give people a lot of ownership.

因此，在您内部所做的事情中，我在这里提出的四个要点是给予人们很大的所有权。

They're essentially GMs of the product, the feature.

他们本质上是产品、功能的总经理。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a lot of focus on depth and complexity and getting really good at solving really gnarly problems.

Lenny Rachitsky：非常注重深度和复杂性，并且非常擅长解决真正棘手的问题。

And then there's a focus on building wow products, amazing lovable products that have a very high bar.

然后重点是打造令人惊叹的产品，令人惊叹的可爱产品，具有很高的标准。

And then there's kind of a subtle point that I think is probably impactful here is just working closely with detail-obsessed founders or product leaders like you and learning from you all and just seeing the value and impact of being super detail oriented.

然后有一个微妙的点，我认为这里可能有影响力，就是与像你这样注重细节的创始人或产品领导者密切合作，向你们所有人学习，并看到超级细节导向的价值和影响。

On that bucket, is there anything else that you think is super core that I missed before we get to hiring?

在这个方面，还有什么是你认为在我们开始招聘之前我错过的超级核心吗？

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yeah, I would just maybe highlight the aspect of this going deep into details.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：是的，我可能只是想强调一下深入细节的方面。

There are two main streams.

有两个主流。

First is let's say being technical, understanding how underlying systems work, but second is also building empathy towards customers.

首先是技术性的，了解底层系统是如何工作的，其次是建立对客户的同理心。

Understand the possible contexts and making sure that your product will satisfy each one of them.

了解可能的情况并确保您的产品能够满足每一种情况。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a great point.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个很好的观点。

So it's actually understanding the bare metal of what is happening and how it's possible, and then making the experience as simple and wowable as possible.

因此，它实际上是了解正在发生的事情及其可能性，然后使体验尽可能简单和令人惊叹。

Dmitry Zlokazov: There is also a third aspect, but it's a boring one and it's complying with all possible regulations and making sure that your product will satisfy the regulator, but it's also an important part of the job.

Dmitry Zlokazov：还有第三个方面，但这是一个无聊的方面，它遵守所有可能的法规并确保你的产品能够满足监管机构的要求，但这也是工作的重要组成部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: What I get from that is just building patience with all-

Lenny Rachitsky：我从中得到的只是对所有人建立耐心-

Dmitry Zlokazov: I would say it's actually being able to unblock your team and that sometimes require product owners to steam roll changes because it also means that you could easily get stuck with a lot of people just looking into each other and thinking, "Okay, can they approve it?

Dmitry Zlokazov：我想说的是，它实际上能够解除团队的阻碍，有时需要产品负责人推动变更，因为这也意味着你很容易陷入与很多人互相审视并思考的困境，“好吧，他们能批准吗？

Can they not approve it?" We try to innovate on it.

他们能不批准吗？”我们尝试在此基础上进行创新。

We try to automate as many things as possible.

我们尝试使尽可能多的事情实现自动化。

We use even AI models for that, but it also requires a product owner to be able to get things done, just getting people down to consensus and understanding how your stakeholders, how to get them to the necessary decision and then blocking UTM so that eventually the value is shipped to customers.

为此，我们甚至使用人工智能模型，但它还要求产品所有者能够完成工作，只需让人们达成共识并了解利益相关者如何，如何让他们做出必要的决定，然后阻止 UTM，以便最终将价值传递给客户。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So essentially it's just getting done, plowing through blockers, dealing with many stakeholders.

所以本质上，它只是完成任务，克服障碍，与许多利益相关者打交道。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yeah.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：是的。

That's always the most important.

这始终是最重要的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

That's a great addition.

这是一个很好的补充。

I could see why that would be really helpful for folks that are trying to get ahead in their career.

我明白为什么这对于那些试图在职业生涯中取得成功的人来说非常有帮助。

And then on the hiring piece, what you look for is raw intellect, drive hunger, passion essentially.

然后在招聘方面，你寻找的是原始智慧、驱动饥饿感和激情。

Those are the first two.

这是前两个。

And then interestingly, non-senior, not people with a ton of experience in the problem space, more so focusing on intellect and hunger.

有趣的是，非资深人士，不是在问题领域拥有丰富经验的人，更关注智力和饥饿。

Is there anything else in that bucket that you think is important that leads to people being really successful?

您认为在这个桶中还有其他什么重要的东西可以让人们真正成功吗？

Dmitry Zlokazov: Most importantly, it's again, getting things done, getting your hands dirty, and great product owners are very hands-on.

Dmitry Zlokazov：最重要的是，再次强调，把事情做好，亲自动手，优秀的产品负责人都非常亲力亲为。

They don't think of themselves as managers who just give tasks to people and wait them to complete it.

他们并不认为自己是管理者，只是将任务分配给人们并等待他们完成。

They just go and get things done and they understand that most important things they will likely have to do themselves, and they understand that there needs to be relentless focus on execution, and if something is 99% done, it's closer to 0% rather than 100%.

他们只是去把事情做好，他们明白最重要的事情可能需要他们自己做，他们明白需要不懈地关注执行，如果某件事完成了 99%，那么它更接近 0%，而不是 100%。

Lenny Rachitsky: Whoa, say more there.

Lenny Rachitsky：哇，多说一点。

Is the kind of insight there is just things seem like they're 99% done, but they're actually very far from being done?

是否有一种洞察力，就是事情看起来已经完成了 99%，但实际上距离完成还很远？

Dmitry Zlokazov: Sometimes the product is built, but then product owners are the ones who also make sure that, for example, customer care team or sales and marketing team are using it to a full extent because without it, it could be just another useless feature, and no one knows about it.

Dmitry Zlokazov：有时产品是构建出来的，但产品所有者也需要确保客户服务团队或销售和营销团队充分使用它，因为如果没有它，它可能只是另一个无用的功能，而且没有人知道它。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is super cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：那太酷了。

I like that mentality.

我喜欢这种心态。

Let me ask you something completely different.

让我问你一些完全不同的问题。

What's kind of the story of you landing at Revolut?

你来到 Revolut 的故事是怎样的？

I know you had to move your family.

我知道你必须搬家。

It was a whole adventure.

这是一次完整的冒险。

Dmitry Zlokazov: My journey into Revolut actually coincided with me moving to the UK, so it was a completely new environment for myself.

Dmitry Zlokazov：我进入 Revolut 的旅程实际上恰逢我搬到英国，所以这对我来说是一个全新的环境。

It's a huge stress load for the brain as well.

这对大脑来说也是一个巨大的压力负荷。

And it's not only about using the other side of the lane on the road in the UK, but also it's a lot of things, for example, in the industry, some concepts that I've never heard about, and actually I've never worked at FinTech before, so I also changed the industry.

而且不仅仅是在英国马路上使用车道的另一边，还有很多东西，比如在行业里，一些我从来没有听说过的概念，而且其实我以前从来没有在FinTech工作过，所以我也改变了这个行业。

So it was a complete turnaround for me and for my career, but I was very determined and excited about it because everyone who I've been talking to, they were saying Revolut is like it's top talent is at Revolut, all best product people are at Revolut, and I really wanted to be part of this great team.

所以这对我和我的职业生涯来说都是一次彻底的转变，但我对此非常坚定和兴奋，因为与我交谈过的每个人都说 Revolut 就像顶尖人才都在 Revolut，所有最好的产品人员都在 Revolut，我真的很想成为这个伟大团队的一员。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Eventually it actually appeared to be advantageous for me because I also had this fresh view on things and even in the Revolut app, which is actually way, way better than other banks products.

Dmitry Zlokazov：最终，它实际上对我来说似乎是有利的，因为我对事物甚至在 Revolut 应用程序中也有新的看法，这实际上比其他银行产品要好得多。

But even there I found some things that for me, because of this lack of context, they were not intuitive and I worked hard with the team to change that.

但即使在那里，我也发现了一些对我来说由于缺乏背景而变得不直观的事情，我与团队一起努力改变这种状况。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太好了。

I'm going to take us to recurring segment of the podcast.

我将带我们进入播客的重复部分。

I'm going to take us to Fail Corner.

我要带我们去失败角。

So in Fail Corner, the idea here is people come on this podcast, they share all these stories of success, everything's always going great, but in reality, things don't often go great, and there's a lot of things that don't go right.

所以在 Fail Corner 中，这里的想法是人们来到这个播客，他们分享所有这些成功的故事，一切总是进展顺利，但实际上，事情并不经常进展顺利，而且有很多事情进展不顺利。

Is there a story you could share where things went wrong in your career, where you failed with a product you were building or a moment in your career where things were looking really bad?

您是否可以分享您职业生涯中出现问题的故事，您正在开发的产品失败的故事，或者您职业生涯中事情看起来非常糟糕的时刻？

Dmitry Zlokazov: I think the most spectacular failures is probably were on the earliest stage of my career, which I studied back at university and maybe in my second year of university I started building some things, different startups, and one of them was actually a product that makes me proud even now because it was like what, 15 years ago?

Dmitry Zlokazov：我认为最引人注目的失败可能是在我职业生涯的最早阶段，我在大学学习过，也许在大学第二年我开始建造一些东西，不同的初创公司，其中一个实际上是一个让我现在感到自豪的产品，因为它就像 15 年前一样？

So 2010, meaning still no one really had even iPhones back then and me and my friends, we started building a website that allows people to buy tickets to the cinema so that they can skip the line so they don't need to come in advance to select best seats and they can just buy a ticket online and go to the seats directly.

所以到了2010年，当时还没有人真正拥有iPhone，我和我的朋友们就开始建立一个网站，允许人们购买电影票，这样他们就可以跳过排队，这样他们就不需要提前来选择最好的座位，他们可以直接在网上买票然后直接去座位。

Something that today seems as a commodity.

今天看来是一种商品。

Back then no one had it.

那时没有人拥有它。

Dmitry Zlokazov: People were using pieces of paper and we built an end-to-end system because not only we needed to build a website, but we also needed to build hardware to scan those tickets, for example.

Dmitry Zlokazov：人们使用纸张，我们构建了一个端到端系统，因为我们不仅需要构建一个网站，而且还需要构建硬件来扫描这些票证等。

And to have these tickets in digital format, we needed to hack SMS standard because again, people didn't have smartphones.

为了获得这些数字格式的门票，我们需要破解短信标准，因为人们没有智能手机。

They had these Nokias and we were sending images, QR codes inside an SMS, which is like a hack of the standards in a way.

他们有这些诺基亚，而我们在短信中发送图像、二维码，这在某种程度上就像是对标准的黑客攻击。

And then we were scanning those things with our own devices and we built our own devices with scanners, and we actually created these beautiful devices made from stainless steel, which looked really nice inside the cinema halls.

然后我们用我们自己的设备扫描这些东西，我们用扫描仪构建了我们自己的设备，我们实际上创建了这些由不锈钢制成的漂亮设备，它们在电影院大厅内看起来非常漂亮。

Dmitry Zlokazov: And I remember how I was excited about it with my friends.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：我记得我和朋友们对此感到多么兴奋。

We were like, "What an amazing thing." It's like, look, we are bringing future here, but we actually spent all our investment on this hardware and we were expecting that everyone will just rush into using our system.

我们当时想，“多么了不起的事情啊。”就像，看，我们在这里带来了未来，但我们实际上把所有投资都花在了这个硬件上，我们期望每个人都会急于使用我们的系统。

But it was a very low share of customers who started buying tickets online because people were not ready for it, which was growing quite slowly.

但开始在线购买门票的客户比例非常低，因为人们还没有做好准备，而且增长速度相当缓慢。

And eventually we had to close it because we simply ran out of money because we spent all of it on this hardware without any proven business model.

最终我们不得不关闭它，因为我们根本没钱了，因为我们把所有的钱都花在了这个没有任何经过验证的商业模式的硬件上。

So something that currently looks like an obvious mistake back then, we were just enjoying building a product that we would love to use ourselves, which I think is the right principle, but it also was a very painful lesson.

因此，现在看来这是一个明显的错误，我们只是享受构建一个我们自己喜欢使用的产品，我认为这是正确的原则，但这也是一个非常痛苦的教训。

You need to stay lean, you need to validate things before you scale them.

您需要保持精益，需要在扩展之前对其进行验证。

You need to think way more about the run rate of your business.

您需要更多地考虑业务的运行率。

So there were a lot of painful lessons for me.

所以给我带来了很多惨痛的教训。

Since then, I also try to avoid working with hardware.

从那时起，我也尽量避免与硬件打交道。

Lenny Rachitsky: I was just going to say that's a common challenge for startups trying to get right into hardware, although I wouldn't be surprised now if Revolut launches something another product, and this is a new product line of Revolut now that you've had that experience.

Lenny Rachitsky：我只是想说，对于试图直接进入硬件领域的初创公司来说，这是一个常见的挑战，尽管如果 Revolut 现在推出其他产品，我不会感到惊讶，而且这是 Revolut 的新产品线，既然您已经有了这种经验。

Dmitry Zlokazov: We launched a POS terminals required.

Dmitry Zlokazov：我们推出了所需的 POS 终端。

Lenny Rachitsky: All right, there we go.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，我们开始吧。

Dmitry, before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that we haven't touched on that you think might be really helpful for listeners to hear?

德米特里（Dmitry），在我们开始非常激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有什么我们没有提到但您认为可能对听众真正有帮助的内容吗？

Maybe a last wisdom nugget that you haven't already shared, or even just something to kind of double down on that you've already shared?

也许是您尚未分享的最后一个智慧金块，或者甚至只是您已经分享过的东西的加倍？

Dmitry Zlokazov: No, I think that it was an amazing chat and thanks, Lenny.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：不，我认为这是一次很棒的聊天，谢谢莱尼。

We covered a lot of different topics.

我们讨论了很多不同的主题。

I would just maybe summarize that if you're excited to build certain things, never hesitate to do it.

我可能会总结一下，如果您对构建某些东西感到兴奋，请毫不犹豫地去做。

The best way to do it is probably your own startup, and it also what will give you the steepest possible learning curve, but then if you want to join a company, try to choose the one that has the highest entrepreneurial spirit and that will allow you to work as closer to a mode of a founder as you possibly can.

最好的方法可能是你自己创业，它也会给你尽可能陡峭的学习曲线，但如果你想加入一家公司，请尝试选择一家具有最高创业精神的公司，这将使你尽可能接近创始人的模式。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a recurring theme in these conversations I'm having with companies that produce the PMs that have the steepest career trajectory.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是我与那些培养出具有最陡峭职业轨迹的产品经理的公司进行的对话中反复出现的主题。

And so that advice is exactly what I'm taking away from this too, assuming you want your career to accelerate really quickly after you go work at this company.

因此，假设您希望在这家公司工作后您的职业生涯能够迅速加速，那么这个建议也正是我从中得到的建议。

Okay, Dmitry, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

好的，德米特里，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Here we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

Okay.

好的。

First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Dmitry Zlokazov: The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫（Dmitry Zlokazov）：本·霍洛维茨（Ben Horowitz）的《关于困难的事情的困难》。

Actually read it quite some time ago, but I found myself recommending it to other product managers most often.

实际上很久以前就读过它，但我发现自己最常向其他产品经理推荐它。

It's actually illustrative that to be a great product manager, someone needs to strive to being a great CEO.

这实际上说明了，要成为一名出色的产品经理，就需要努力成为一名出色的首席执行官。

And besides this book emphasizes the importance of building systematic solutions and scalable solutions, which is critical for scaling a company.

除此之外，本书还强调了构建系统解决方案和可扩展解决方案的重要性，这对于扩展公司规模至关重要。

Also being honest on how important it is to grind stuff.

还要诚实地了解研磨东西的重要性。

And then second book is, I read it more recently, Build by Tony Fadell.

第二本书是我最近读过的，托尼·法德尔（Tony Fadell）写的《Build》。

I was really inspired by this one, especially given how I appreciate how it's not easy to build hardware and what Tony was describing there is just super exciting and inspiring.

我真的受到了这个启发，特别是考虑到我非常欣赏构建硬件是多么不容易，而托尼在那里描述的内容非常令人兴奋和鼓舞人心。

And also I think that there are different archetypes of product managers.

而且我认为产品经理有不同的原型。

There are people who tend to disrupt things more.

有些人更倾向于破坏事物。

Personally I think about myself as a builder, so Tony's principles that he highlighted in the book that they resonate with me a lot.

就我个人而言，我认为自己是一名建设者，因此托尼在书中强调的原则与我产生了很大的共鸣。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm trying to get Tony on the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：我正在努力让托尼加入播客。

If anyone listening knows Tony Fadell and can nudge him, "Hey, say yes to Lenny," that'd be great.

如果听众中有人认识托尼·法德尔（Tony Fadell）并且可以轻推他，“嘿，对莱尼说是”，那就太好了。

I've been in touch with his team, but he's not doing podcasts right now, but I'm trying to get him on.

我一直在与他的团队保持联系，但他现在没有做播客，但我正在努力让他加入。

Okay, moving on.

好的，继续。

Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Dmitry Zlokazov: I think the last movie I watched was Oppenheimer and I really liked it.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：我想我看的最后一部电影是《奥本海默》，我真的很喜欢它。

I always love watching biopics.

我一直喜欢看传记片。

I think they give kind of a perspective and let you think about things in perspective.

我认为它们提供了一种视角，让你能够正确地思考事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny Rachitsky：有没有您最近发现的最喜欢且真正喜欢的产品？

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yeah.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：是的。

Yeah.

是的。

It's just like I was super impressed how...

就像我印象非常深刻...

I was mesmerized.

我被迷住了。

It's so autonomous and smooth, and I just spent a few hours vibe coding and I created this JavaScript app that sends me a rare English word every day to learn and remember, and it worked, and I was just amazed.

它是如此自主和流畅，我只花了几个小时进行 vivi 编码，并创建了这个 JavaScript 应用程序，它每天都会向我发送一个罕见的英语单词来学习和记住，它起作用了，我感到很惊讶。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Ineffable.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：难以形容。

It was the yesterday's word.

这是昨天的话。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

It's still going.

它还在继续。

That's great.

那太棒了。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, you find useful in work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的、经常回顾的人生格言，您发现它在工作或生活中很有用？

Dmitry Zlokazov: I love this phrase.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：我喜欢这句话。

I think Eisenhower said it, "Plans are worthless, but planning is everything." It's like we often say how important it is to be flexible and agile and adjust to change in circumstances, but it doesn't allow us to actually not have a plan at all.

我认为艾森豪威尔说过，“计划毫无价值，但计划就是一切。”就像我们经常说灵活敏捷并根据环境变化进行调整是多么重要，但这并不意味着我们实际上根本没有计划。

It's important for us to remember that we always need to think many steps ahead and while being flexible, we also need to think things thoroughly.

对我们来说，重要的是要记住，我们总是需要提前考虑很多步骤，在保持灵活性的同时，我们还需要彻底思考事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Final question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。

For folks that are maybe checking out Revolut for the first time that want to play with it or already users.

对于那些可能是第一次查看 Revolut、想要使用它或已经是用户的人。

What's the most underrated feature?

最被低估的功能是什么？

What's something that you think people should check out maybe they're not aware of, or even just like a UX, I don't know, animation, something fun that people may not know about?

您认为人们应该检查哪些可能他们不知道的东西，或者甚至只是像用户体验，我不知道，动画，人们可能不知道的有趣的东西？

Dmitry Zlokazov: The thing that is not yet widely used, but I really loved it, is what we call a wealth protection.

Dmitry Zlokazov：尚未广泛使用但我真的很喜欢它的东西，就是我们所说的财富保护。

So if you go to settings, you can enable a limit for any transfers outside of Revolut.

因此，如果您进入设置，您可以为 Revolut 之外的任何转账启用限制。

If you want to do a transfer above this limit, you'll have to do a selfie check, which is our proprietary technology.

如果您想进行超过此限制的转账，则必须进行自拍检查，这是我们的专有技术。

We do a video selfie here.

我们在这里拍了一段自拍视频。

It allows us to make sure that it's you, no one else is doing the transfer, and it's actually almost as smooth as face ID and the way the team built it is really great.

它使我们能够确保是您本人在进行传输，没有其他人在进行传输，而且它实际上几乎与面容 ID 一样顺利，而且团队构建它的方式非常出色。

I'm really proud of those guys.

我真的为这些人感到骄傲。

Lenny Rachitsky: Dmitry, you guys are doing something very special.

Lenny Rachitsky：德米特里，你们正在做一些非常特别的事情。

I really appreciate you spending so much time with me chatting through all the things you guys have figured out.

我真的很感谢你们花这么多时间和我一起讨论你们已经弄清楚的所有事情。

I think this is going to help a lot of different companies level up the way they think about product and for people to join Revolut that want to experience this and accelerate their career.

我认为这将帮助许多不同的公司提升他们对产品的思考方式，并帮助人们加入 Revolut 来体验这一点并加速他们的职业生涯。

So thank you for being here.

谢谢你来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you if they want to reach out and how can listeners be useful to you?

如果人们想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Dmitry Zlokazov: I think the best way is to find me on LinkedIn and yeah, I would be happy to receive a note from anyone on how we can improve the product and any feedback on the product.

Dmitry Zlokazov：我认为最好的方法是在 LinkedIn 上找到我，是的，我很高兴收到任何人关于我们如何改进产品的说明以及有关产品的任何反馈。

And also if you know someone who can be a great fit to Revolut after you've listened to what I've told, then yeah, I would be grateful for that as well.

而且，如果您在听完我的介绍后认识一个非常适合 Revolut 的人，那么是的，我也会对此表示感激。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

You're about to get a flood of applications.

您将收到大量申请。

Get prepared.

做好准备。

Dmitry, thank you.

德米特里，谢谢你。

Dmitry Zlokazov: Yeah, Lenny, thanks a lot.

德米特里·兹洛卡佐夫：是的，莱尼，非常感谢。

It was amazing time.

那是一段美妙的时光。

Thank you very much.

非常感谢。

Same.

相同的。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。