Succeeding as an introvert, building zero-to-one, and PM’ing your career like a product | Deb Liu
Lenny Rachitsky: You're VP of product at Facebook.
Lenny Rachitsky：您是 Facebook 的产品副总裁。
You're director at eBay and PayPal.
您是 eBay 和 PayPal 的总监。
You're on the board of Intuit.
您是 Intuit 董事会成员。
You've been the CEO of Ancestry now for the past three and a half years.
过去三年半以来，您一直担任 Ancestry 的首席执行官。
This is a career path that a lot of people dream of.
这是很多人梦想的职业道路。
Deb Liu: Some of the best PMs I have ever worked with are terrible PMs for their career.
Deb Liu：与我共事过的一些最优秀的产品经理在他们的职业生涯中却是糟糕的产品经理。
They just drift from job to job.
他们只是从一个工作转移到另一个工作。
"Hey, should I take this role or this role?
“嘿，我应该接这个角色还是这个角色？
How do I think about this?" But if I said you had to write a spec for your career, what does success look like?
我怎么看待这个问题？”但如果我说你必须为你的职业生涯写一份规范，那么成功是什么样子的呢？
How are you going to get there?
你要怎么去那里？
Lenny Rachitsky: You wrote this awesome post about introverts and how hard it is to be successful as an introvert.
Lenny Rachitsky：您写了这篇关于内向者以及作为一个内向者取得成功是多么困难的精彩文章。
Deb Liu: The workplace is really favoring people who can speak up.
Deb Liu：职场真的很喜欢敢于发声的人。
It looks like self-promotion.
看起来像是自我推销。
I wouldn't want to do that because it's self-promotion.
我不想这样做，因为这是自我推销。
But instead, what if I called it educating about all the great work your team has been doing?
但是，如果我将其称为“教育您的团队所做的所有伟大工作”呢？
Helping people see why your team should get more resources, you have to actually share what you do.
为了帮助人们了解为什么你的团队应该获得更多资源，你必须实际分享你所做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there something that you believe that you think most other people don't believe?
Lenny Rachitsky：有没有什么事情是你认为但大多数其他人不相信的？
Deb Liu: The most important career decision you make is who you marry.
Deb Liu：你做出的最重要的职业决定就是你嫁给谁。
Is this person lifting you up or pushing you back?
这个人是在提升你还是在推你后退？
You will have a much more successful career if your home life is in balance.
如果你的家庭生活平衡，你的事业将会更加成功。
It's like a yin and a yang.
就像阴和阳一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Deb Liu.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的嘉宾是 Deb Liu。
Deb was VP of product at Facebook where she spent over 11 years and while they're created and led Facebook marketplace, which is now used by over 1 billion people monthly, she also led the development of Facebook's first mobile ad product for apps and its mobile ad network.
Deb 曾在 Facebook 担任产品副总裁超过 11 年，在创建和领导 Facebook 市场（目前每月有超过 10 亿人使用该市场）的同时，她还领导了 Facebook 首款应用程序移动广告产品及其移动广告网络的开发。
Also built the company's games business and payments platform, including Facebook Pay.
还打造了公司的游戏业务和支付平台，包括Facebook Pay。
Lenny Rachitsky: Prior to Facebook, she was director at both PayPal and eBay.
Lenny Rachitsky：在加入 Facebook 之前，她曾担任 PayPal 和 eBay 的总监。
She's on the board of Intuit and for the past three and a half years, she's been the CEO of Ancestry.
她是 Intuit 的董事会成员，在过去三年半的时间里，她一直担任 Ancestry 的首席执行官。
I actually generally have a rule of no CEOs on this podcast, but to me, Deb is a great exception because she's a product person at heart.
事实上，我通常规定这个播客上没有首席执行官，但对我来说，黛布是一个很大的例外，因为她本质上是一个产品人。
In our conversation, Deb shares a ton of tactical career advice, including why resilience is so key to career success, how to PM your career like you PM your product, how to be successful in business as an introvert, what she's learned about building multiple billion dollars zero to one businesses within a large company like Facebook and so much more.
在我们的谈话中，Deb 分享了大量的战术性职业建议，包括为什么韧性对于职业成功如此关键、如何像产品经理一样管理你的职业生涯、作为一个内向者如何在商业上取得成功、她在 Facebook 这样的大公司内建立价值数十亿美元的零到一业务的经验等等。
Lenny Rachitsky: Deb is so full of wisdom and I'm really excited to share her insights with more people.
Lenny Rachitsky：黛布充满智慧，我很高兴能与更多人分享她的见解。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and helps the podcast tremendously.
这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。
With that, I bring you Deb Liu.
接下来，我为您带来黛布·刘。
Lenny Rachitsky: Deb, thank you so much for being here.
Lenny Rachitsky：黛布，非常感谢你来到这里。
Welcome to the podcast.
欢迎来到播客。
Deb Liu: It's wonderful to be here, Lenny.
Deb Liu：很高兴来到这里，Lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's wonderful to have you here.
Lenny Rachitsky：很高兴您能来到这里。
You have had such an incredible career.
你拥有如此令人难以置信的职业生涯。
You're VP of product at Facebook.
您是 Facebook 的产品副总裁。
You're director at eBay and PayPal.
您是 eBay 和 PayPal 的总监。
You're on the board of Intuit.
您是 Intuit 董事会成员。
You've been the CEO of Ancestry now for the past three and a half years.
过去三年半以来，您一直担任 Ancestry 的首席执行官。
This is a career path that a lot of people dream of and honestly just like one of those roles is a dream for a lot of people.
这是很多人梦想的职业道路，老实说，就像其中一个角色是很多人的梦想一样。
And so I wanted to start with just this question and I want to see where the conversation takes us.
所以我想从这个问题开始，我想看看对话将带我们走向何方。
If you could give one specific piece of advice to someone that's looking to do well in their career or to do better in their career based on what has worked well for you, what would that be?
如果您可以向那些希望在职业生涯中取得好成绩或希望根据对您来说有效的方法在职业生涯中做得更好的人提供一条具体建议，那会是什么？
Deb Liu: Always be learning, and I tell this to everybody, so I often tell people, someone who's always learning is always going to exceed someone who's the expert today.
Deb Liu：不断学习，我告诉大家这一点，所以我经常告诉人们，不断学习的人总是会超过今天的专家。
You're going to find people...
你会找到人...
The one thing about school is that we go to school and there's such a thing as getting a hundred on the test, a perfect score on the SAT, graduating with a 4.0.
关于学校的一件事是，我们去学校，就会有这样的事情：考试得一百分，SAT 成绩满分，以 4.0 毕业。
Well, there's nothing like that in careers, right?
嗯，职业生涯中没有这样的事，对吧？
We think it's actually a non-linear experience and there's always something better than you at speaking or presenting or strategy or execution.
我们认为这实际上是一种非线性体验，并且在演讲、演示、策略或执行方面总有比您更好的东西。
But if you're always learning, learning from the best, getting feedback, you're always going to get better every single day.
但如果你总是学习，向最好的人学习，获得反馈，你每天都会变得更好。
Deb Liu: And that's what I have always held, which is each job I took, I didn't necessarily qualify for it.
Deb Liu：这就是我一直坚持的，就是我接受的每一份工作，我并不一定有资格胜任。
I wasn't necessarily the very best at it, and so it became the student of being better at that job.
我不一定是最擅长的，所以它成为了在这项工作上做得更好的学生。
And once I mastered that, I was a student for something else, something else and something else.
一旦我掌握了这一点，我就成为了其他东西、其他东西和其他东西的学生。
And so I always balanced learning and impact, which was you can have the most impact, the job you know the best, but then you stop learning.
所以我总是平衡学习和影响力，这就是你可以产生最大的影响力，你最了解的工作，但随后你就停止了学习。
And if you're learning all the time, you're not necessarily having impact.
如果你一直在学习，你不一定会产生影响。
Deb Liu: So how do you keep going back and forth and back and forth so that you're not going straight up a lot or you're actually laddering back and forth into different things where you're having an amazing time where you know everything and then you're the newbie again and learning new things, and you're incorporating what you used to know into what you're learning and the impact that you have today and so on and so forth.
Deb Liu：那么你如何不断地来来回回，这样你就不会直接上升很多，或者你实际上是在不同的事情上来回走动，在那里你度过了一段美妙的时光，你知道了一切，然后你又成为新手并学习新的东西，你将你过去所知道的东西融入到你正在学习的东西和你今天所产生的影响中，等等。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Pendo, the only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Pendo 为您带来，Pendo 是唯一适用于任何类型应用程序的一体化产品体验平台。
Tired of bouncing around multiple tools to uncover what's really happening inside your product?
厌倦了使用多种工具来揭示产品内部到底发生了什么？
With all the tools you need in one simple to use platform, Pendo makes it easy to answer critical questions about how users are engaging with your product and then turn those insights into action.
Pendo 在一个简单易用的平台中提供了您所需的所有工具，让您可以轻松回答有关用户如何与您的产品互动的关键问题，然后将这些见解转化为行动。
Lenny Rachitsky: Also, you can get your users to do what you actually want them to do.
Lenny Rachitsky：此外，您还可以让用户做您真正希望他们做的事情。
First, Pendo is built around product analytics, seeing what your users are actually doing in your apps so that you can optimize their experience.
首先，Pendo 围绕产品分析构建，了解用户在应用程序中实际执行的操作，以便您可以优化他们的体验。
Next, Pendo lets you deploy in-app guides that lead users through the actions that matter most.
接下来，Pendo 允许您部署应用内指南，引导用户完成最重要的操作。
Then Pendo integrates user feedback so that you can capture and analyze what people actually want.
然后 Pendo 集成用户反馈，以便您可以捕获和分析人们真正想要的东西。
And the new thing in Pendo, session replays, a very cool way to visualize user sessions.
Pendo 中的新功能是会话重播，这是一种非常酷的可视化用户会话的方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm not surprised at all that over 10,000 companies use it today.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天有超过 10,000 家公司使用它，我对此并不感到惊讶。
Visit pendo.io/lenny to create your free Pendo account today and start building better experiences across every corner of your product.
立即访问 pendo.io/lenny 创建免费 Pendo 帐户，并开始在产品的各个角落打造更好的体验。
PS, if you want to take your product-led knowhow a step further, check out Pendo lineup of free certification courses led by talk product experts and designed to help you grow and advance in your career.
PS，如果您想进一步了解以产品为主导的专业知识，请查看 Pendo 系列免费认证课程，这些课程由演讲产品专家领导，旨在帮助您在职业生涯中成长和进步。
Learn more and experience the power of the Pendo platform today at pendo.io/lenny.
立即访问 pendo.io/lenny 了解更多信息并体验 Pendo 平台的强大功能。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。
If you're building a SaaS app, at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and skim provisioning.
如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户有时会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 Skim 配置等企业功能。
That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.
这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。
Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.
他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。
Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow, and Loom.
如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。
WorkOS also recently acquired warrant, the Fine Grained Authorization service.
WorkOS 最近还获得了 Warrant（细粒度授权服务）。
Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.
Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。
Lenny Rachitsky: This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.
Lenny Rachitsky：这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。
If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, skim or user management, you should consider WorkOS.
如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、浏览或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。
It's a drop in replacement for auth zero and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free.
它是 auth Zero 的替代品，并且免费支持多达 100 万的每月活跃用户。
Check it out at workos.com to learn more.
请访问 workos.com 以了解更多信息。
That's workos.com.
那是workos.com。
Lenny Rachitsky: You talked about you got into a new job maybe you weren't ready for and you had to learn on the job.
Lenny Rachitsky：你谈到你进入了一份新工作，也许你还没有准备好，你必须在工作中学习。
So either maybe share story one of those experiences or just like how do you actually do this?
因此，要么分享这些经历中的一个故事，要么就像你实际上是如何做到这一点的？
So someone's listening, they're like, how do I learn?
所以有人在听，他们会问，我该如何学习？
What am I learning?
我在学什么？
Deb Liu: We'll start with my career in tech.
Deb Liu：我们将从我的科技职业生涯开始。
So I had worked in consulting before business school.
所以我在读商学院之前曾从事咨询工作。
I went to Stanford for business school, came out to California, didn't know that much about tech, but I really loved using eBay.
我去了斯坦福大学商学院，来到加利福尼亚州，对科技了解不多，但我真的很喜欢使用 eBay。
So I interned there my first year in business school and then when it came to finding a job, I really wasn't sure what we wanted to do, but we wanted to move back to the East Coast.
所以我在商学院实习了第一年，然后当谈到找工作时，我真的不确定我们想做什么，但我们想搬回东海岸。
And so I wasn't looking and I couldn't find a job.
所以我没有寻找，也找不到工作。
I think it was really hard.
我认为这真的很难。
It was 2002.
那是2002年。
And so I ran into Tim Wenzel and Catherine Wu.
于是我遇到了蒂姆·温泽尔和凯瑟琳·吴。
So Catherine Wu was from Airbnb as you might know her.
你可能认识 Catherine Wu，她来自 Airbnb。
And Tim Wenzel put together the PayPal Mafia.
Tim Wenzel 组建了 PayPal Mafia。
He was the recruiter for PayPal.
他是 PayPal 的招聘人员。
Deb Liu: Went to this table and I said, "Absolutely love PayPal, use it all the time.
Deb Liu：走到这张桌子前，我说：“我非常喜欢 PayPal，一直使用它。
I'm a big seller on eBay," and he's like, "Do you want a job?" I'm like, "No, I'm actually going back east.
我是 eBay 上的大卖家，”他说，“你想要一份工作吗？”我想，“不，我实际上要回到东部。
"And he's like, "Just come in and talk to us." And so I said, "Okay.
“他说，‘进来和我们谈谈吧。’”所以我说：“好吧。
Well, what kind of jobs do you have?" And he's like, "I have jobs in product and I have jobs in marketing." Now, I've taken marketing class obviously in business school, and I said, "I wonder what this other product job is."
嗯，那你从事什么工作呢？”他说，“我有产品方面的工作，也有营销方面的工作。”现在，我显然已经在商学院上过营销课程，我说：“我想知道另一个产品工作是什么。”
Deb Liu: So I look over at Catherine and I've seen her around Stanford before, so she was a year ahead of me and I said, "Well, what do you do?" She said, "Product." I'm like, "That sounds good.
Deb Liu：所以我看着凯瑟琳，我以前在斯坦福大学见过她，所以她比我早一年，我说，“好吧，你是做什么的？”她说：“产品。”我想，“听起来不错。
I'll do that." And that's actually how I fell into product management.
我会这么做的。”这实际上就是我进入产品管理的过程。
Well, I actually, and I'm embarrassed to say faked my way through those interviews, because during the interviews they're like, "Well, what would you build?" And since I was an avid user of both products, I could really richly say, "Here's the product feedback I have.
嗯，实际上，我很尴尬地说我在这些采访中做了假，因为在采访中他们会说，“那么，你会构建什么？”由于我是这两种产品的狂热用户，我可以很丰富地说：“这是我得到的产品反馈。
Here are the new products you should build.
以下是您应该构建的新产品。
Here's my feedback on things that we should be doing differently."
这是我对我们应该采取不同做法的事情的反馈。”
Deb Liu: And they said, "Congratulations." And they gave me the job.
Deb Liu：他们说：“恭喜。”他们给了我这份工作。
And embarrassingly I went to the first day of work and I said to Amy Clement, who was the VP of product at the time, and I said, "Okay, I literally have no idea what this product job is."
令人尴尬的是，我第一天上班时就对当时的产品副总裁艾米·克莱门特 (Amy Clement) 说，“好吧，我真的不知道这个产品工作是什么。”
Deb Liu: She showed me the ropes and she was so incredible.
Deb Liu：她向我展示了秘诀，她太不可思议了。
She actually showed me, she said, "All those ideas you had, all that energy you've had around building these things, we go do that.
她实际上向我展示了，她说，“你拥有的所有这些想法，你为构建这些东西所拥有的所有能量，我们都会去做。
Let's go do it." And I said, "Well, how do you do that?" And she said, "Well, you write down what you want to build and you work with the engineers to do it." And I just remember thinking, "This is crazy.
我们去做吧。”我说：“那么，你是怎么做到的呢？”她说：“好吧，你写下你想要构建的东西，然后与工程师一起完成它。”我只记得我当时想：“这太疯狂了。
I have no idea what I'm doing."
我不知道我在做什么。”
Deb Liu: It was such an incredible adventure though.
Deb Liu：不过，这真是一次令人难以置信的冒险。
Those first few years, I just learned so much about the craft of building, how to really think through product use cases, how to think through what customers wanted, not just the customer of one, myself, but really what true customers and customer cohorts wanted.
在最初的几年里，我学到了很多关于构建的技巧，如何真正思考产品用例，如何思考客户想要什么，不仅仅是我自己的客户，而是真正的客户和客户群体想要什么。
And so it was really a time when I felt like I was really blossoming, but I didn't come in with mastery.
所以那确实是一个我感觉自己真正绽放的时刻，但我并没有掌握。
I came with a curiosity and I think that's what made me a great product manager was that I didn't have a set way of doing things.
我带着好奇心来到这里，我认为这让我成为一名出色的产品经理，因为我没有固定的做事方式。
There wasn't some playbook I was trying to play.
我并没有尝试去玩什么剧本。
There wasn't some framework, but instead I was willing to learn.
没有什么框架，但我愿意学习。
Lenny Rachitsky: So one takeaway might be from this, the phrase, fake it till you make it.
Lenny Rachitsky：因此，这句话的一个要点可能是“假装成功，直到成功”。
Any thoughts on just how to...
关于如何...的任何想法
I imagine many people right now are like, "Oh, I'm trying to get a job as a pm.
我想现在很多人都会说，“哦，我正在努力找一份下午的工作。
How do I do this?
我该怎么做？
That sounds great.
听起来很棒。
I'm going to pass this interview, figure out the job after I joined."
我会通过这次面试，确定加入后的工作。”
Deb Liu: Coming in with humbleness was really important, but during the interview process, actually, I didn't realize this, but they asked me questions as if I was a product manager, as if I knew what I was doing.
Deb Liu：谦虚是非常重要的，但是在面试的过程中，其实我没有意识到这一点，但是他们问我的问题就好像我是产品经理一样，就好像我知道自己在做什么一样。
I think when you have passion around a product or passion around a company or around a business model or around something, it shows.
我认为，当你对一种产品、对一家公司、一种商业模式或某件事充满热情时，它就会表现出来。
And so it's not necessarily faking the enthusiasm or faking the idea that you want to work there, but you don't have to know how to write this spec or PRD or briefings or anything like that.
因此，这不一定是假装热情或假装你想在那里工作，但你不必知道如何编写此规范或 PRD 或简报或类似的内容。
You don't know how to do customer research or do data analytics or read reports, but instead show your passion around the product itself, around the use case, around the customer.
你不知道如何进行客户研究、数据分析或阅读报告，而是表现出你对产品本身、用例和客户的热情。
Deb Liu: Show who you are and why you care.
Deb Liu：展示你是谁以及你为什么关心。
I think sometimes people just say, "I want a product job." But you have to be able to fall in love with the problem.
我想有时人们只是说，“我想要一份产品工作。”但你必须能够爱上这个问题。
You have to fall in love, not with the product, but I said the problem, right?
你必须爱上，而不是爱上产品，但我说的是问题，对吧？
The use case.
用例。
What problem are you trying to solve?
您想解决什么问题？
And if you can do that, you can be a great product manager even without a lot of experience.
如果你能做到这一点，即使没有很多经验，你也可以成为一名出色的产品经理。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's an awesome piece of advice.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的建议。
So just lean into the passion.
因此，只要投入热情即可。
First of all, part of it is you have to be excited about the thing you're trying to work on or thinking about the company you're thinking about joining.
首先，部分原因是你必须对你正在尝试做的事情或考虑你正在考虑加入的公司感到兴奋。
Sounds like that's a prerequisite here.
听起来这是这里的先决条件。
We have a podcast episode with Uri Levine who has a whole book called Fall in Love with the Problem, which is all about that same idea actually for startup founders.
我们有一个由尤里·莱文 (Uri Levine) 主持的播客节目，他写了一整本书，名为《爱上问题》(Fall in Love with the Problem)，这本书实际上是针对初创公司创始人的同样的想法。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, he always wears a shirt, fall in love with the problem, not the solution.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，他总是穿着衬衫，爱上问题，而不是解决方案。
Deb Liu: Yes, is absolutely the most important skill for a product leader.
Deb Liu：是的，这绝对是产品负责人最重要的技能。
Lenny Rachitsky: Something else I've heard you talk about in terms of something that contributed to your success is being okay with failure and just bouncing back quickly versus avoiding failure.
Lenny Rachitsky：我还听你说过，关于对你的成功有贡献的事情，那就是接受失败，快速恢复，而不是避免失败。
Is that something that you can come back to a lot?
这是你可以经常回来的事情吗？
Deb Liu: Well, here's what I noticed about everybody.
Deb Liu：嗯，这是我对每个人的观察。
I've coached a ton of people in my life.
我一生中指导过很多人。
I have managed big teens and the people who are most successful are not the people who had no failures, who were lived charm lives, head up into the right careers and got promoted every cycle.
我管理过大青少年，最成功的人并不是那些没有失败过的人，他们过着迷人的生活，进入正确的职业并在每个周期都得到晋升。
The people who were most successful were the ones who actually through adversity, learned to turn stumbling blocks into stepping stones.
最成功的人是那些真正经历逆境的人，学会把绊脚石变成垫脚石的人。
They were the ones who got hard feedback and then came back stronger because now they learned what to do differently.
他们得到了严厉的反馈，然后变得更加强大，因为现在他们学会了如何做不同的事情。
Deb Liu: They were the ones who products failed, but they said, "You know what?
Deb Liu：他们是产品失败的人，但他们说，“你知道吗？
I'm going to turn this failure into success.
我要把这次失败变成成功。
I'm going to take those lessons and make this company stronger." When you live a charmed product life, you always work on everything that's easy.
我将吸取这些教训，让这家公司变得更强大。”当你过着迷人的产品生活时，你总是会做一切简单的事情。
You don't actually...
你其实并不...
Trees are strong because they bend in the wind, because they're tested, because it's cold, because it's windy, because there's conditions.
树木之所以坚强，是因为它们在风中弯曲，因为它们经过考验，因为寒冷，因为有风，因为有条件。
Deb Liu: And that's how a tree goes grow strong and tall over many generations.
Deb Liu：这就是一棵树如何在许多世代中变得坚强、高大的原因。
And I think sometimes we think, "Oh yeah, I wish I lived a charm life." And that is not what we want.
我想有时我们会想，“哦，是的，我希望我过着迷人的生活。”这不是我们想要的。
You want to have enough adversity that you learn to overcome so that you can build stronger over time and build resilience in your career.
你希望有足够多的逆境来学习克服，这样你就能随着时间的推移变得更强大，并在你的职业生涯中建立韧性。
Deb Liu: I've seen that so much, which is the best product leaders I ever worked with are the ones that have the toughest stories, that had the hardest feedback, but also the ones who were able to bounce back quickly and make it happen.
Deb Liu：我见过很多这样的情况，与我合作过的最好的产品领导者都是那些有最艰难的故事、最难得到反馈的人，但也是那些能够快速恢复并实现目标的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: We have a segment on this podcast called Failure Corner where people share a failure they went through kind of along the same lines and something we learned from that experience.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们在这个播客上有一个名为“失败角落”的部分，人们分享他们经历过的类似失败以及我们从这次经历中学到的东西。
Is there an example of that from your career where a failure made you stronger?
在你的职业生涯中，有没有失败让你变得更坚强的例子？
Deb Liu: Yeah.
刘黛玉：是的。
I remember there was a job that I really wanted at Facebook and I'd been there for a long time.
我记得 Facebook 有一份我非常想要的工作，而且我已经在那里工作了很长时间。
I had been leading different teams.
我一直在领导不同的团队。
I was a VP of product and then GM.
我曾担任产品副总裁，然后担任总经理。
There was one job that I never got to do, so I got to do all the jobs I wanted and Mark gave it to someone else.
有一项工作我从来没有做过，所以我必须做我想做的所有工作，而马克把它交给了别人。
I told him at the time when he gave it to the first person who was amazing at it, I said, "If this job were open, I'd like to be considered for it."
当他把这份工作交给第一个在这方面表现出色的人时，我告诉他，“如果这份工作有空缺，我希望被考虑。”
Deb Liu: The job opened up later, gave it to someone else.
Deb Liu：后来空缺了，给了别人。
And I said to Mark, again, "I really wanted that job." And he said, "Not only will I not give you that job, you'll never have that job at this company."
我再次对马克说：“我真的很想要那份工作。”他说：“我不仅不会给你那份工作，而且你永远不会在这家公司得到这份工作。”
Deb Liu: He didn't say it harshly.
Deb Liu：他说得并不严厉。
But he was giving me feedback about something which he did not see me in that role, in a role that I really wanted.
但他给了我一些反馈，但他没有看到我扮演那个角色，一个我真正想要的角色。
And I had to decide each time like, "What do I do with this information?" This is my dream job.
我每次都必须做出决定，比如“我该如何处理这些信息？”这是我梦想的工作。
Actually, I decided I was going to turn the job I had and the job I wanted, and that's a choice.
事实上，我决定要改变我现有的工作和我想要的工作，这是一个选择。
I could have said, you know what?
我本可以说，你知道吗？
I can't have that job.
我不能得到那份工作。
I could go do something else, but I didn't.
我本来可以去做点别的事，但我没有。
I took the job I had with the team I had and I turned it into this thing that was going to be something we wanted.
我接受了我和我的团队的工作，并将其变成了我们想要的东西。
Deb Liu: And so I think sometimes it's not...
Deb Liu：所以我认为有时并不是......
I think that that experience was a very humbling experience because to be told no and then to say that this will never happen was really hard.
我认为那次经历是一次非常令人谦卑的经历，因为被拒绝然后说这永远不会发生真的很难。
But at the same time it was a reminder that you're not right for every job even if you think you are.
但同时它也提醒我们，即使你认为自己适合所有工作，但你并不适合所有工作。
And that you can take the raw materials of what you have and turn it into what you want.
你可以利用你所拥有的原材料并将其变成你想要的东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: Are you able to share what those jobs were that you wanted to get that you never got?
Lenny Rachitsky：你能分享一下那些你想得到但却从未得到过的工作吗？
Deb Liu: I never actually shared it publicly, but it's something which I had always had a role where I did new things for the company and there was a role where it was running something which more of an existing business, but I had always been kind of the innovator, the new stuff person.
Deb Liu：我实际上从未公开分享过，但我一直扮演着为公司做新事物的角色，还有一个角色是在运营更多现有业务，但我一直是创新者，新事物的人。
I had taken over so many new things.
我接手了很多新事物。
And so maybe that wasn't the right thing at the right time for me, but it was something that was really incredible and a turning point for me.
所以也许这对我来说不是在正确的时间发生的正确的事情，但这对我来说确实是令人难以置信的转折点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Great segue to an area I wanted to spend some time on which is building zero to one stuff within a larger company.
Lenny Rachitsky：非常适合我想花一些时间在一家大公司内构建从零到一的东西的领域。
So from what I can tell you built 2 billion businesses within a large company, Facebook marketplace, and then the ads platform within Facebook and maybe more.
因此，据我所知，您在一家大公司、Facebook 市场、然后是 Facebook 内的广告平台甚至更多方面建立了 20 亿个业务。
I don't know, the payments stuff, the games.
我不知道，支付的东西，游戏。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Maybe there's billions of dollars there I don't even know about.
也许那里有数十亿美元我什至不知道。
And this is very rare and very hard, and it's something we talk a little bit on this podcast, just the skills to build something new.
这是非常罕见和非常困难的，这是我们在这个播客上谈论的一些内容，只是构建新事物的技能。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know with marketplace it was not something people believed in for a long time.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道人们长期以来并不相信市场。
It took a lot of work to convince people to actually give it a shot.
说服人们真正尝试一下需要做很多工作。
So I guess the question here is just what have you found are key tactics to start something new and allow it to continue to exist and get to a place where people start to believe it?
所以我想这里的问题是你发现了什么是开始新事物并允许它继续存在并达到人们开始相信它的地方的关键策略？
What has worked for you?
什么对你有用？
Deb Liu: So first, I didn't build the ads platform.
Deb Liu：所以首先，我没有建立广告平台。
I actually built the first direct response ad product company ever had.
我实际上建立了第一家直接响应广告产品公司。
But we'll talk about how that led to why direct response is a vast majority of the ads revenue for the company.
但我们将讨论这如何导致直接响应占公司广告收入的绝大多数。
But one thing that it was really interesting is that I really saw my opportunity in Facebook to be somebody that zigged when other people zagged.
但真正有趣的一件事是，我确实在 Facebook 中看到了自己的机会，成为一个在其他人摇摆不定时摇摆不定的人。
There were amazing people who did a lot of the really core products working on feed, photos, videos.
有一些了不起的人开发了很多真正核心的产品，包括信息流、照片、视频。
Deb Liu: I came in actually on the payments team and we worked on payments and eventually built games, which was the first billion dollar business.
Deb Liu：我实际上加入了支付团队，我们致力于支付并最终开发了游戏，这是第一个十亿美元的业务。
It was very successful.
这是非常成功的。
We worked with the likes of all the game companies that were on the Canvas games platform.
我们与 Canvas 游戏平台上的所有游戏公司合作。
And it was just an incredible opportunity to start from scratch and built something really cool.
这是一个从头开始并构建一些非常酷的东西的绝佳机会。
We built Facebook credits, which eventually became the Facebook payment system.
我们建立了 Facebook 积分，最终成为 Facebook 支付系统。
Deb Liu: And then from there on I built the first direct response ads product.
Deb Liu：从那时起，我构建了第一个直接响应广告产品。
And again, leveraging the skills that we had, we had a lot of relationships with game companies because of my time and payments.
再次，利用我们拥有的技能，由于我的时间和报酬，我们与游戏公司建立了很多关系。
And so we just said, "Hey look, what ad product do you want?" And they said, "Actually, your biggest challenge is the shift to mobile.
所以我们只是说，“嘿，看看，你想要什么广告产品？”他们说：“实际上，您最大的挑战是向移动设备的转变。
Build us a mobile acquisition engine." And we said, "That's doable."
为我们打造一个移动采集引擎。”我们说：“这是可行的。”
Deb Liu: At the time the company was very brand oriented.
Deb Liu：当时公司非常注重品牌。
Most of the ads...
大多数广告...
Actually almost all the ads on the platform were brand and we were not even on the ads team.
事实上，平台上几乎所有的广告都是品牌广告，而我们甚至不是广告团队的成员。
So we actually worked on this team called the platform team.
所以我们实际上在这个称为平台团队的团队中工作。
We said, "Okay, we'll build an ads product for the Facebook feed, the new mobile Facebook feed." And suddenly it became a billion dollar business within about 18 months, which was such an incredible journey.
我们说，“好吧，我们将为 Facebook feed 构建一个广告产品，即新的移动 Facebook feed。”在大约 18 个月内，它突然变成了价值 10 亿美元的业务，这是一段令人难以置信的旅程。
Deb Liu: We worked on the mobile advertising platform, so basically the mobile ads network.
Deb Liu：我们致力于移动广告平台，所以基本上是移动广告网络。
That was a great experience.
那是一次很棒的经历。
And so each time I worked on something, it was just...
所以每次我做某事时，它只是......
The thing that you have to remember is the failure rate for something like this is very high.
你必须记住的是，这样的事情的失败率非常高。
You start something and the amount of iteration...
你开始做一些事情以及迭代的数量......
People think, "Oh yeah, it's easy." You start something and it's linear because you have all the resources of this company behind you.
人们会想：“哦，是的，这很容易。”你开始做某事，它是线性的，因为你有这家公司的所有资源支持。
But actually everything in the company is like, "Let's do the most important thing."
但实际上公司里的一切都像是“让我们做最重要的事情吧”。
Deb Liu: These are seeds and we'll just let them...
Deb Liu：这些是种子，我们会让它们......
And so if you do that, you have to know that you don't get a lot of resources, you get a lot of attention.
因此，如果你这样做，你必须知道你没有获得很多资源，而是得到了很多关注。
And I appreciated that because I think I work best when people aren't...
我很欣赏这一点，因为我认为当人们不...时我工作得最好。
There is not a lot of scrutiny.
没有太多的审查。
I think sometimes large companies, they say, "Well this innovation team," and then they check in on them way too much.
我认为有时大公司会说，“好吧，这个创新团队”，然后他们对他们的检查太多了。
They're like, "Week to week progress, where are you going?
他们就像是，“每周都在进步，你要去哪里？
What's your strategy?" But so much as you know of building something new is the iteration process.
你的策略是什么？”但正如您所知道的，构建新事物就是迭代过程。
It's the failing a lot.
这是很多失败的事情。
Deb Liu: We actually tested five or six versions of the ads product before we got it to take off and it took months, and then we were on the verge of death multiple times.
Deb Liu：我们实际上测试了五六个版本的广告产品才开始成功，花了几个月的时间，然后我们多次处于死亡边缘。
In fact, I actually went back to run the payments team while I was working on that product because the team we had gathered still want to continue working on it, but I needed a second job back on the payments team because they asked me, "We don't think this thing is going to work.
事实上，当我在开发该产品时，我实际上回去管理支付团队，因为我们聚集的团队仍然想继续开发它，但我需要在支付团队中找到第二份工作，因为他们问我，“我们认为这件事行不通。
You should go run your old team again." And I thought, "Well, I will do both."
你应该重新去管理你原来的球队。”我想：“好吧，我两样都会做。”
Deb Liu: And so I did both for a while until it really took off.
Deb Liu：所以我都做了一段时间，直到它真正起飞。
The thing that I think a lot of large companies don't realize is that you can love something to death.
我认为很多大公司都没有意识到，你可以热爱某样东西至死不渝。
And so with every new product, I'd rather do it out of the limelight, do it with the minimal resources and have the freedom to fail because success and failure really is...
因此，对于每一个新产品，我宁愿在众人瞩目的情况下完成它，用最少的资源完成它，并有失败的自由，因为成功和失败确实是......
In startups, failing fast is really important or succeeding fast.
在初创公司中，快速失败或快速成功非常重要。
Deb Liu: It's the long slog that makes it really hard.
Deb Liu：漫长的过程让事情变得非常困难。
In a company, you end up getting cut if you're the long slog product.
在公司里，如果你是长期苦干的产品，你最终会被裁掉。
And so being able to just say, "You know what?
所以可以说：“你知道吗？
We're pruning this.
我们正在修剪这个。
We're doing the next thing, the next thing." And then having the time to iterate and grow is really critical.
我们正在做下一件事，下一件事。”然后，有时间进行迭代和成长非常重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: So as a leader trying to do this and create space for this, is there something you've learned about how to allow for, "Don't over scrutinize us, don't look at us too carefully.
Lenny Rachitsky：作为一名试图做到这一点并为此创造空间的领导者，您是否已经学会了如何允许“不要过度审视我们，不要太仔细地看待我们。
We don't want to be in the limelight.
我们不想成为众人瞩目的焦点。
Don't put too many resources on this yet." Is it just like, "Hey, Mark.
暂时不要在这上面投入太多资源。”是不是就像，“嘿，马克。
Here's what I think." I imagine it's not as easy as that.
这就是我的想法。”我想这并不那么容易。
There's a lot of influence and that kind of work.
有很多影响力和类似的工作。
Is there any tactics that you could share to create this sort of environment?
您可以分享一些创建这种环境的策略吗？
Deb Liu: I think the most important part of the environment is really patience.
Deb Liu：我认为环境中最重要的部分是耐心。
And again, this is a portfolio strategy and I tell every PM who...
再说一遍，这是一个投资组合策略，我告诉每一位产品经理......
I used to do a new hire PM class and I say, "Look, a lot of you are going to go into the core product and your job is to grow X by 3 to 5% every six months.
我曾经参加过新员工 PM 课程，我说：“看，你们中的很多人都会进入核心产品，你们的工作是每六个月将 X 增长 3% 到 5%。
Growing engagement or growing sessions or maybe growing video views or whatever your metric is, you're trying to grow something 5% and then you exceed expectations."
参与度的增加、会话的增加、视频观看次数的增加或者无论你的指标是什么，你试图增加 5%，然后你就超出了预期。”
Deb Liu: And I said, "And then a bunch of you are like, 'I want to do something new.
Deb Liu：我说，“然后你们中的很多人就会说，‘我想做一些新的事情。
I want to build something from scratch.'" And I said, "By the way, a very, very successful company for a new set of products has a 50% hit rate.
我想从头开始构建一些东西。’”我说，“顺便说一句，一家非常非常成功的公司的一套新产品的命中率是 50%。
So half of you are going to come back in a year and have a different job because that did not work out.
所以你们中的一半人会在一年后回来并从事不同的工作，因为那没有成功。
Do you have the resilience to do that?" And I think somebody, you enter a large company...
你有能力做到这一点吗？”我认为有人，你进入一家大公司......
By the way, you can have an amazing career building core products because that is an incredible journey within...
顺便说一句，您可以在构建核心产品方面拥有令人惊叹的职业生涯，因为这是一段令人难以置信的旅程......
Because you learn so much about the mechanics of what that takes.
因为你学到了很多关于这需要什么的机制。
Deb Liu: And yet at the same time, I found a lot of energy from doing something that someone hasn't done before.
Deb Liu：但与此同时，我从做一些别人从未做过的事情中发现了很多能量。
And so I really enjoyed the, "Hey, this thing could fail.
所以我真的很喜欢，“嘿，这件事可能会失败。
Let's pivot.
让我们转动一下。
Let's try to figure out.
让我们试着弄清楚。
Let's prune this.
让我们修剪一下这个。
Let's try that." And not everything I did there succeeded, but a lot of the things that are the lasting products are once that gotten really big.
我们试试吧。”并不是我在那里所做的一切都成功了，但很多持久的产品都是曾经变得非常大的。
And so for me it was a greater reward and it made a journey so much more interesting.
所以对我来说这是一个更大的奖励，它让旅程变得更加有趣。
Deb Liu: But for others, I think work on the core product, learn the skills.
Deb Liu：但对于其他人来说，我认为专注于核心产品，学习技能。
It is absolutely respectable as well.
这也是绝对值得尊敬的。
But if you choose to be the person who works on innovation new products, expect in a year, you might literally have nothing to show for it, but the lessons that you learned.
但如果你选择成为致力于创新新产品的人，预计一年后，你可能实际上没有什么可展示的，但你学到了教训。
And I think those lessons are really precious and we often underestimate that too.
我认为这些教训非常宝贵，但我们也常常低估了这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Along those lines, do you think it's a good career move to do a zero to one thing within a bigger company?
Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，你认为在一家更大的公司里做从零到一的事情是一个很好的职业转变吗？
Or is it often a bad idea?
或者这通常是一个坏主意？
Do you have any advice there for folks?
您对人们有什么建议吗？
Deb Liu: It depends.
刘黛玉：这要看情况。
It depends on your personality in the company.
这取决于你在公司的性格。
So the one thing I realized about my role was that I did a lot of...
所以我意识到我的角色的一件事是我做了很多......
I had five different careers at the company over 11 years.
11 年来，我在公司从事过 5 种不同的职业。
And so most people don't realize that when you work on new things, you're constantly adding to your portfolio, subtracting from it, growing things, pruning them.
因此，大多数人没有意识到，当你从事新事物时，你会不断地在你的投资组合中添加、减去、种植、修剪它们。
And so you could just work on so many cool things except everything has similar...
所以你可以做很多很酷的事情，除了一切都有相似的......
It's like it rhymes, but it's not exactly the same.
好像押韵，但又不完全一样。
Deb Liu: So you learn the lessons of how to get things done, how to get resource, how to get support when the product is not working, how to not get prunes in the next culling.
Deb Liu：所以你学到的教训是如何把事情做好，如何获得资源，如何在产品不起作用时获得支持，如何在下一次淘汰中不得到修剪。
And those are really, really important skills.
这些都是非常非常重要的技能。
But I think for people who are just starting out of the career, it is a very high risk thing to do.
但我认为对于刚刚开始职业生涯的人来说，这是一件风险非常高的事情。
So if you're very early in the career, I encourage people just learn the core skills first.
因此，如果您处于职业生涯的早期，我鼓励人们首先学习核心技能。
You can learn the core skills when there's a lot of stability.
当有很大的稳定性时，你可以学习核心技能。
This product is growing X percent, like 5%, and you're going to grow at 10.
这个产品的增长率是 X%，比如 5%，而你的增长率是 10%。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
Deb Liu: That is because you are there, you're going to change your trajectory of the product, or this thing has a hundred thousand users, you're going to get it to 200,000.
Deb Liu：那是因为你在那里，你要改变你的产品轨迹，或者这个东西有十万用户，你要把它增加到二十万。
Those are the kinds of things that are going to be successful for you and you can put on your resume.
这些都是对你来说会成功的事情，你可以把它写在你的简历上。
But I think it reaches a point in your career where you have to decide, when am I going to take the big swing?
但我认为，在你的职业生涯中，你必须做出决定，我什么时候要采取重大举措？
Because the big swings are the things that you write your career stories about.
因为大波动是你写职业故事的内容。
They're not just, I moved this metric X, but I changed your trajectory in this way.
他们不仅仅是，我移动了这个指标X，而且我以这种方式改变了你的轨迹。
Deb Liu: And so the big swings though have a lot of failures along the way.
Deb Liu：因此，在大的波动过程中，也有很多失败。
And so you have to understand you're making trade-offs in that.
所以你必须明白你正在为此做出权衡。
I encourage everybody to take some time, two, three years in their career when they're ready for the big swing, where if it doesn't work...
我鼓励每个人在职业生涯中花一些时间，两三年，为大转变做好准备，如果不起作用……
If it works, you run the team, you run this amazing product.
如果它有效，你就可以管理团队，管理这个令人惊叹的产品。
It doesn't work, you can always go back and go back to the core products.
实在不行，你可以随时返回，回到核心产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting how your strategy here is very similar to a product portfolio strategy where as a team should have a few big bets and then a lot of incremental stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，你的策略与产品组合策略非常相似，作为一个团队应该有一些大的赌注，然后是很多增量的东西。
And it reminds me about this awesome post called You Are in Control of Your Career.
这让我想起了一篇很棒的文章，名为“你的职业生涯由你掌控”。
And the argument in your post is you should PM your career the way you PM your product.
你帖子中的论点是你应该像PM产品一样PM你的职业生涯。
So there's a lot of synergy here.
所以这里有很多协同作用。
So maybe just diving into this post and advice around this, how should someone be PMing their career, the way they PM a product?
因此，也许只是深入研究这篇文章并就此提出建议，人们应该如何PM他们的职业生涯，他们PM产品的方式？
What's your take there?
你对此有何看法？
Deb Liu: By the way, for your PM audience, I want to say this, which is a lot of the greatest PMs are the worst PMs of their careers.
Deb Liu：顺便说一句，对于你们的 PM 听众，我想说的是，很多最伟大的 PM 都是他们职业生涯中最糟糕的 PM。
They love products.
他们热爱产品。
They love the crafts.
他们热爱手工艺品。
They love the customer research, the data.
他们喜欢客户研究和数据。
They have plans, they have timelines.
他们有计划，有时间表。
And then when it comes to career, they have none of those things.
而当谈到职业生涯时，他们什么都没有。
They just drift from job to job.
他们只是从一个工作转移到另一个工作。
"Hey, should I take this role or this role?
“嘿，我应该接这个角色还是这个角色？
How do I think about this?" But if I said you had to write a spec for your career, what's in there?
我怎么看待这个问题？”但如果我说你必须为你的职业生涯写一份规范，那里面有什么？
What are your milestones?
你的里程碑是什么？
What are the skills?
有什么技巧？
What are the features that you want to have of your career?
您希望自己的职业生涯具备哪些特点？
How are you going to get there?
你要怎么去那里？
What does success look like?
成功是什么样的？
Deb Liu: You actually have metrics for your product, and yet you don't have metrics for your career.
Deb Liu：你实际上有产品的指标，但你的职业却没有指标。
I coach a lot of people and when I coach them, I ask them, "Well, where do you want to see yourself in five years?
我指导过很多人，当我指导他们时，我会问他们：“那么，五年后你想看到自己在哪里？
Where do you want to go?" And half the people have no idea.
你想去哪里？”一半的人不知道。
I think that's really tragic because when you PM your career, it's about intentionality.
我认为这真的很悲惨，因为当你PM你的职业生涯时，这是关于意图的。
But I'll tell you the story of my career and how I was the accidental PM and then eventually...
但我会告诉你我的职业生涯的故事，以及我如何成为意外的总理，然后最终......
I told you how I accidentally fell into PM, but also fell into so many of the things that happened in my PM career.
我告诉过你我是如何不小心陷入PM的，而且也陷入了我PM职业生涯中发生的很多事情。
Deb Liu: And if I had to go back, I would think much more deeply about what I want to accomplish.
Deb Liu：如果我必须回去，我会更深入地思考我想要实现的目标。
So I ended up at PayPal working for a guy named Dave Lee who reported to Amy Clement, and then he left.
所以我最终在 PayPal 为一个名叫 Dave Lee 的人工作，他向 Amy Clement 汇报，然后他离开了。
And so she offered me his role.
所以她给了我他的角色。
I had only managed people for, I don't know, 15 seconds.
我只管理了员工 15 秒，我不知道。
I was two years out of business school and I was definitely not qualified to do his job.
我已经从商学院毕业两年了，我绝对没有资格做他的工作。
He was the director of product.
他是产品总监。
I wasn't even a director and I was running the team for eBay.
我什至不是董事，但我负责管理 eBay 的团队。
Deb Liu: So basically the PayPal part of eBay, which was basically half the company's revenues and profits.
Deb Liu：基本上是 eBay 的 PayPal 部分，它基本上占了公司收入和利润的一半。
Totally unqualified.
完全没有资格。
I ended up in this job and I do a good job.
我最终得到了这份工作并且做得很好。
I ended up doing it for several years.
我最终做了几年。
I built up the team and we have a great relationship with eBay.
我组建了这个团队，我们与 eBay 有着良好的关系。
Our team was very close and we were able to actually build something really lasting that worked really well.
我们的团队非常紧密，我们能够真正构建出真正持久且效果良好的东西。
And then I had a baby.
然后我生了孩子。
And so this happens in a lot of women's careers.
因此，这种情况发生在很多女性的职业生涯中。
I was turning 30, I had my son, and I had to leave for six months.
我已经 30 岁了，有了儿子，我不得不离开六个月。
Deb Liu: So I handed my product to my successor, Mike Woo and he ended up taking over.
Deb Liu：所以我把我的产品交给了我的继任者 Mike Woo，他最终接手了。
He did such a good job while I was gone, I didn't want to displace him when I got back.
我不在的时候他做得很好，我回来后不想取代他。
And so I thought, "Well, I'll go and look for another role." I couldn't really find a product role I liked, I mean, because there weren't that many product director roles.
所以我想，“好吧，我去寻找另一个角色。”我的意思是，我找不到真正喜欢的产品角色，因为产品总监的角色并不多。
And so I ended up in corporate strategy.
所以我最终选择了公司战略。
So I worked for the amazing Rajiv who was CEO at the time.
所以我为当时担任首席执行官的出色的拉吉夫工作。
He since passed and I wrote his speeches, worked on strategies, I worked on digital goods and charity, and ended up building that into a vertical for the company.
他去世后，我写了他的演讲，制定了战略，我研究了数字产品和慈善事业，最终将其构建为公司的垂直领域。
So charity, social commerce and digital goods.
慈善事业、社交商务和数字产品也是如此。
Deb Liu: And I thought, "Okay, this is an interesting job." So I create the job, have a couple product managers, wasn't really sure where this was going, and then one day I was like, "You know what?
Deb Liu：我想，“好吧，这是一份有趣的工作。”所以我创造了这份工作，有几个产品经理，不太确定这会发生什么，然后有一天我想，“你知道吗？
I'm not feeling this.
我没有这种感觉。
I have a child at home." I had gotten into what Cheryl Sandberg calls that kind of between kids situation where I was bored of my job.
我家里有一个孩子。”我陷入了谢丽尔·桑德伯格（Cheryl Sandberg）所说的那种孩子之间的情况，我对自己的工作感到厌倦。
Deb Liu: I was working one of the VPs I worked with and I resigned.
Deb Liu：我曾与一位副总裁共事，但后来我辞职了。
I said, "I'm leaving tech, just I'm going to stay home and maybe start something small." He convinced me to hold off and he said, I'll find you a job.
我说：“我要离开科技行业，只是待在家里，也许可以开始一些小事情。”他说服我推迟，并说，我会给你找一份工作。
He calls me a week later and he said, "Found you a job with Stephanie Tilenius leading the buyer experience at eBay product." And I said, "Oh, that sounds interesting." So I said, "Sure, as you notice, I do not have a plan.
一周后，他给我打电话，说：“为你找到了一份工作，由 Stephanie Tilenius 领导 eBay 产品的买家体验。”我说：“哦，这听起来很有趣。”所以我说：“当然，正如你所注意到的，我没有计划。
I'm just drifting.
我只是随波逐流。
I'm so fortunate that I had amazing mentors who gave me opportunities, but end up working for Greg Fant and Stephanie Tilenius at eBay for two years.
我很幸运，我有很棒的导师，他们给了我机会，但最终我在 eBay 为 Greg Fant 和 Stephanie Tilenius 工作了两年。
Deb Liu: I led the buyer experience.
Deb Liu：我领导了买家体验。
We did some really good work there.
我们在那里做了一些非常好的工作。
And then went on maternity leave again.
然后又休了产假。
And I get a call from a friend, my old engineering manager from PayPal, "Hey, I'm at Facebook.
我接到朋友的电话，他是我以前在 PayPal 的工程经理，“嘿，我在 Facebook。
Do you want to come?
你想来吗？
You can't come into product.
你不能进入产品。
You need a CS degree for that, but we have a product marketing job open." I was like, "Sounds good." Drop into Facebook.
你需要获得计算机科学学位才能做到这一点，但我们有一份产品营销工作空缺。”我说，“听起来不错。”进入 Facebook。
And so again, no idea what I'm doing back in product marketing.
再说一次，我不知道我在产品营销方面做了什么。
So I spent a few years doing that.
所以我花了几年时间来做这件事。
Eventually was invited into product and so on and so forth.
最终被邀请参与产品等等。
Deb Liu: And each job that came along was organic, but also kind of accidental.
Deb Liu：每一项工作都是有机的，但也有一些偶然。
I see that happen in a lot of careers, which is my story when you look back, looks great.
我看到这种情况发生在很多职业中，这就是我的故事，当你回头看时，看起来很棒。
It looks like it all worked out, but I had almost zero intentionality in any of these.
看起来一切都顺利了，但我对这些的意向几乎为零。
And I think that had I had more agency and I thought about what I wanted, I could actually measure is this the thing that would get me further or not?
我认为如果我有更多的代理权并且我思考了我想要什么，我实际上可以衡量这是否会让我走得更远？
Deb Liu: I ended up extremely lucky, but not everybody does.
Deb Liu：我最终非常幸运，但不是每个人都如此。
And so I think having a plan allows you to compare every decision.
所以我认为制定计划可以让你比较每个决定。
It's not like when you're offered an admission to college, we're looking at three different offers maybe with financial aid or not, and you can make a decision, "Oh, they're offering me this department, but I can't get into this department." This is how far it is from home.
这不像当你被大学录取时，我们正在考虑三个不同的录取通知书，可能有经济援助，也可能没有，你可以做出决定，“哦，他们给我提供了这个部门，但我不能进入这个部门。”这就是离家有多远。
But jobs and roles or nothing like that.
但工作和角色或者类似的东西都没有。
Someone calls you one day, "Hey, I'm at Facebook.
有一天有人打电话给你，“嘿，我在 Facebook。
Do you want to come?
你想来吗？
I'm actually on maternity leave." And he's like, "Just come talk to me." I'm like, "Why not."
我实际上正在休产假。”他说，“跟我说话吧。”我说，“为什么不呢。”
Deb Liu: And you end up dropping into different parts of your life and I think sometimes by saying, "Here's where I want to go and here's how I want to get there," you can have such a better career.
Deb Liu：你最终会进入生活的不同部分，我想有时通过说“这就是我想去的地方，这就是我想要到达那里的方式”，你可以拥有更好的职业生涯。
And so I do encourage everybody to do this and to think about what does success look like in five years and how far am I from that and am I heading in the right direction?
因此，我确实鼓励每个人都这样做，并思考五年后成功会是什么样子，我距离成功还有多远，我是否正朝着正确的方向前进？
Lenny Rachitsky: What's interesting is I also had a similar path to you where I had zero plan or intention or goal and also just follow things and things worked out.
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，我也有与你类似的道路，我的计划、意图或目标为零，并且只是遵循事情和结果。
I wonder how often that happens and I wonder if this idea of having intention and planning a roadmap is something you do if things aren't working out because maybe there's some good to not overthinking it and just following pull.
我想知道这种情况发生的频率，我想知道如果事情进展不顺利，你是否会采取这种有意图和规划路线图的想法，因为也许不过度思考并只是跟随拉动会有一些好处。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Deb Liu: Well, I think the problem is this with you and me, Lenny, is that hindsight bias is a problem.
Deb Liu：嗯，我认为问题在于你和我，莱尼，事后偏见是一个问题。
We made it because we weren't intentional in a lot of ways, but for how many people, is that true?
我们之所以能做到这一点，是因为我们在很多方面都不是故意的，但对于多少人来说，这是真的吗？
For how many people who aren't...
对于多少人来说不是...
You don't have a plan and you get there.
你没有计划，你就到达了那里。
I always tell people, if you are sure what your destination is, that's definitely where you're going to end up.
我总是告诉人们，如果你确定你的目的地是什么，那肯定就是你最终要去的地方。
But if you actually aim in the right direction, you can shape your learnings, you can shape your roles you take, you can shape your skills towards the place that you want to go.
但如果你确实瞄准了正确的方向，你就可以塑造你的学习，你可以塑造你所扮演的角色，你可以塑造你的技能，以实现你想去的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: When you talk about getting this offer from Facebook, usually those are like you have three days to decide.
Lenny Rachitsky：当你谈论从 Facebook 获得这个优惠时，通常就像你有三天的时间来做决定。
Lenny Rachitsky: And it feels like that's when the things you've done ahead of time of here's what I want would be most helpful.
Lenny Rachitsky：感觉那时你在我想要做的事情之前所做的事情将是最有帮助的。
Deb Liu: Also, I think the thing about job opportunities in particular is they tend to come serially.
Deb Liu：另外，我认为工作机会尤其是它们往往是连续出现的。
It's only you presented these offers.
这些优惠只是您提供的。
It's like one role is so different from another and they often don't happen at the same time.
就好像一个角色与另一个角色如此不同，而且它们通常不会同时发生。
They might say, "Well, you have to decide in two weeks." And then you say, "Well, there's this other company I'm talking to and you get a lot of pressure to say yes to this versus this."
他们可能会说：“好吧，你必须在两周内做出决定。”然后你说：“嗯，我正在和另一家公司交谈，你会面临很大的压力，要接受这家公司，而不是接受这家公司。”
Deb Liu: And to really having a measuring stick is this getting me closer or further away from where I go?
Deb Liu：真正有一把尺子会让我离我要去的地方更近还是更远？
Can allow you to actually take serial decision making to a place where you're measuring against a long-term goal.
可以让您真正做出系列决策，以衡量长期目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: I did a meditation retreat once and when you're meditating, there's this kind of guidance of don't try too hard, don't push yourself to go into a direction, "Oh, I'm not doing a good job.
Lenny Rachitsky：我做过一次冥想静修，当你冥想时，有这样的指导，不要太努力，不要强迫自己进入一个方向，“哦，我做得不好。
I need to get to this enlightened state." And instead their advice is just push your cart in a direction and think about that's the direction you want head, but you don't need to grasp on to here's where I need to land, here's where I need to go.
我需要达到这种开悟的状态。”相反，他们的建议是将你的车推向一个方向，并思考那是你想要的方向，但你不需要抓住这里是我需要着陆的地方，这是我需要去的地方。
And I wonder if just having a thought of here's where I want my career to go.
我想知道，仅仅想到这里是否就是我想要的职业发展方向。
I want to be on boards in the future.
我想将来加入董事会。
I want to start a company in the future.
我将来想开一家公司。
I want to become a designer in the future.
我将来想成为一名设计师。
At least start there maybe just like a direction that you're heading.
至少从那里开始，也许就像你前进的方向一样。
Deb Liu: Yeah.
刘黛玉：是的。
There's a woman who I worked with in product and now she's the founder, very successful founder, and she said to me, "I want to join the board of this Fortune 100 company." She told me the company, and I said, "Okay, that's a lot." So she said, "How can I get there?" And I said, "First, it's probably going to take you 10 years because look at who's on the board.
有一位与我一起从事产品工作的女性，现在她是创始人，非常成功的创始人，她对我说，“我想加入这家财富 100 强公司的董事会。”她告诉我公司的情况，我说：“好吧，就这么多了。”于是她说：“我怎样才能到达那里？”我说：“首先，这可能需要 10 年的时间，因为看看董事会中有哪些人。
I happen to know a couple people on the board." And I said, "Why don't I introduce you to one of them?
我碰巧认识董事会里的几个人。”我说，“我为什么不向你介绍其中一个呢？
And they can tell you how to get there.
他们可以告诉您如何到达那里。
Deb Liu: But the point is she knew where she wanted to go and she said, "I'm willing to take it first step today." And I said, "First, you've never been on a board.
Deb Liu：但关键是她知道自己想去哪里，她说：“我愿意今天迈出第一步。”我说：“首先，你从未加入过董事会。
You were very successful, but this is not...
你非常成功，但这不是......
There's so many steps before you get there.
在你到达那里之前还有很多步骤。
It's like before you go to Harvard, you have to graduate from elementary school to middle school.
就像你去哈佛之前，你必须从小学到初中毕业一样。
You have to take the SAT, you have to apply.
你必须参加SAT考试，你必须申请。
I said, "Let's start from the first step and let's break this problem down."
我说：“我们从第一步开始，把这个问题分解一下。”
Deb Liu: But I love that she knew where she wanted to go and she's like, "Even if I don't make it there, I'll be happier having made this journey." And I love that for her.
Deb Liu：但我喜欢她知道自己想去哪里，她会说，“即使我没能到达那里，我会更高兴完成了这段旅程。”我喜欢她这一点。
And I think she's still earlier in her career, she has so much time ahead of her, but it's really incredible to see her kind of on this path and to know that that's her dream, and that I can help her a little bit along the way.
我认为她还处于职业生涯的早期阶段，她还有很多时间，但看到她走上这条道路并知道那是她的梦想，并且我可以一路帮助她，这真是令人难以置信。
Lenny Rachitsky: It also relates very much to your idea of thinking of your career like a PM thinks about their product where one of the tactics is to imagine the ideal scenario and work backwards from that versus incrementally what's the next thing?
Lenny Rachitsky：这也与你对职业生涯的思考有很大关系，就像产品经理思考他们的产品一样，策略之一是想象理想的场景，然后从那里开始逆向工作，而不是逐步前进，下一步是什么？
What's the next thing?
接下来是什么？
So in this case, she was thinking, "Here's where I want to head.
所以在这种情况下，她在想，“这就是我想去的地方。
Okay, what's the next thing to get to that direction?" I love that.
好吧，朝着这个方向下一步做什么？”我喜欢这个。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Webflow.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Webflow 为您带来。
We're all friends here, so let's be real for a second.
我们都是这里的朋友，所以让我们现实一点吧。
We all know that your website shouldn't be a static asset.
我们都知道您的网站不应该是静态资产。
It should be a dynamic part of your strategy that drives conversions.
它应该是推动转化的策略的动态部分。
That's business 101, but here's a number for you.
那是商务 101，但这是给您的号码。
54% of leaders say web updates take too long.
54% 的领导者表示网络更新时间太长。
That's over half of you listening right now.
现在有超过一半的人在听。
That's where Webflow comes in.
这就是 Webflow 的用武之地。
Their visual first platform allows you to build, launch, and optimize webpages fast.
他们的视觉优先平台允许您快速构建、启动和优化网页。
That means you can set ambitious business goals and your site can rise to the challenge.
这意味着您可以设定雄心勃勃的业务目标，并且您的网站可以应对挑战。
Learn how teams like Dropbox, IDEO, and Orangetheory trust Webflow to achieve their most ambitious goals today at webflow.com.
立即访问 webflow.com 了解 Dropbox、IDEO 和 Orangetheory 等团队如何信任 Webflow 来实现他们最雄心勃勃的目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, going a slightly different direction, I'd say the post that you've written that has most resonated with me was about introverts and how hard it is to be successful as an introvert, and that basically have to learn to be an extrovert as an introvert because in business extroverts are most valued.
Lenny Rachitsky：好的，稍微不同的方向，我想说的是，你写的最能引起我共鸣的文章是关于内向的人，以及作为一个内向的人要取得成功是多么困难，而且基本上必须学会像内向的人一样成为外向的人，因为在商业中，外向的人是最有价值的。
Can you just talk about of your insight, what you've seen around this and how and your advice to introverts like me about how to be successful in business, what you need to change?
您能否谈谈您的见解、您对此的看法以及您对像我这样的内向者如何在商业上取得成功以及您需要改变什么的建议？
Deb Liu: Well, first, I love the book, Quiet by Susan Cain.
Deb Liu：嗯，首先，我喜欢苏珊·凯恩的《安静》这本书。
She talks about the power of introverts.
她谈论内向者的力量。
Unfortunately, the world doesn't see the way the world the way she does.
不幸的是，世界并不像她那样看待世界。
I wrote this post.
我写了这篇文章。
It was the secret bias no one talks about, which is the workplace is really favoring people who can speak up.
这是一种没有人谈论的秘密偏见，即职场确实偏爱敢于发声的人。
And I tell the story of somebody on my team who's just an amazing product manager, and yet every time she came up for promotion or calibration, people were like, "Oh, what does she do?" And it was because she was not good at broadcasting or explaining what she does.
我讲述了我团队中某人的故事，她是一位出色的产品经理，但每次她提出晋升或校准时，人们都会说，“哦，她是做什么的？”这是因为她不擅长传播或解释自己所做的事情。
Deb Liu: I would take her to executive meetings and she was really bad at answering questions or talking.
Deb Liu：我会带她去参加高管会议，但她真的不擅长回答问题或说话。
And so we would prep and prep and prep.
所以我们会准备、准备、准备。
I just knew her skills and I could see her every day moving the product forward.
我只是了解她的技能，我可以看到她每天都在推动产品向前发展。
But for some reason people...
但由于某种原因，人们...
Because your peers also have influence over people's ratings and their promotions, and I was constantly just trying to figure out how to get them to see her brilliance.
因为你的同龄人也会影响人们的评级和晋升，而我一直在想办法让他们看到她的才华。
I asked her once, I said, "I noticed that you never answer questions when we do these presentations." She's like, "Yeah, because I'm a processor.
有一次我问她，我说：“我注意到我们做这些演示时你从不回答问题。”她说：“是的，因为我是一个处理者。
And by the time I process, I feel like the conversation has moved on."
当我处理的时候，我觉得谈话已经继续了。”
Deb Liu: And so I really feel like the world, it's not built for somebody like her who's a brilliant product leader, but people couldn't see it.
Deb Liu：所以我真的觉得这个世界不是为像她这样出色的产品领导者而建的，但人们看不到它。
And I realized that so much of what products and just general leadership is, is not just doing the work, but actually...
我意识到产品和一般领导力的大部分内容不仅仅是做工作，而且实际上......
It's not just having the product, it's having great product marketing to go with it.
这不仅仅是拥有产品，还拥有与之相伴的出色的产品营销。
Let's call it that.
我们就这么称呼它吧。
Okay, so I've been in product and I've been product marketing.
好的，我一直从事产品和产品营销工作。
You make a light bulb, but you're selling light.
你制造一个灯泡，但你却在卖灯。
Deb Liu: I really think about how that she was making amazing number of light bulbs.
Deb Liu：我真的很想她是如何制作出数量惊人的灯泡的。
She was lighting up all the houses, but she was not marketing the light.
她照亮了所有的房子，但她并没有推销这种光。
And I think that was the thing that was really missing.
我认为这才是真正缺失的东西。
Is that fair?
这公平吗？
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
There are a lot of people who are born introverted.
有很多人天生内向。
Is it fair that a product manager who isn't introverted, isn't extroverted is struggling with that?
一个不内向、不外向的产品经理正在为此苦苦挣扎，这公平吗？
No, but that's the world we live in.
不，但这就是我们生活的世界。
And so it's one of those things where you get to choose what you do.
所以这是你可以选择做什么的事情之一。
Deb Liu: First, I think for the individual is realizing that you are your own best marketer.
Deb Liu：首先，我认为对于个人来说，要意识到你自己就是最好的营销人员。
You have to actually share what you do.
你必须实际分享你所做的事情。
If a great product is out in the world, but no one is told about it, did it exist?
如果世界上出现了一种伟大的产品，但没有人知道它，那么它存在吗？
And so one of the things that's very important is really to get that product marketing.
因此，非常重要的事情之一就是进行产品营销。
Deb Liu: The second part is we should change our workplaces so everyone can be successful.
Deb Liu：第二部分是我们应该改变我们的工作场所，以便每个人都能成功。
And I think that that's a really important skill.
我认为这是一项非常重要的技能。
As more introverts get into leadership, they need to actually change the world to make more space for people like them as well.
随着越来越多的内向者进入领导层，他们需要真正改变世界，为像他们这样的人腾出更多空间。
So one of the things that I found was in my leadership teams over the last several years, we had this thing where we all vote, but we vote offline in a document and we put a number in and then we put our comments in.
所以我发现的一件事是在过去几年里我的领导团队中，我们所有人都投票，但我们在文件中离线投票，我们输入一个数字，然后我们输入我们的评论。
Deb Liu: And that way everyone has an equal voice in this document.
Deb Liu：这样每个人在这份文件中都有平等的发言权。
And then when we talk about it, usually, of course the extroverts speak first, but everyone has a vote and we can actually see what people's point of views are.
当我们谈论这个问题时，通常，当然是外向的人先发言，但每个人都有投票权，我们实际上可以看到人们的观点是什么。
And I love that.
我喜欢这样。
I love that when there's something we used to do at Facebook is we used to go around in a circle and everybody would give their opinion in a meeting.
我喜欢我们过去在 Facebook 做的事情，就是我们围成一圈，每个人都会在会议上发表自己的意见。
I do that still today.
我今天仍然这样做。
I ask every single person as a business leader at this company, would you do this?
我问每个公司的业务领导者，你会这样做吗？
Deb Liu: And even I joke with our chief legal officer, Greg, I say, "You are a business leader and the lawyer.
Deb Liu：即使我和我们的首席法律官格雷格开玩笑，我也会说：“你是一位商业领袖和律师。
You can't just say, well, legal advises X." I'm like, "But what would you do?" And so nobody can take a backseat to decision making.
你不能只是说，好吧，法律建议X。”我想，“但是你会怎么做？”因此，没有人可以在决策过程中退居二线。
Everybody has a voice.
每个人都有发言权。
So there's so many of these kind of bias interrupters, things that we can do to actually make the world easier for those who weren't speaking up and taking 80% of the air in the room.
因此，有很多这样的偏见干扰者，我们可以做一些事情，让那些没有发言、占据房间里 80% 空气的人的生活变得更轻松。
And I do think that we have to craft a workplace where everyone can be their best.
我确实认为我们必须打造一个让每个人都能做到最好的工作场所。
Lenny Rachitsky: In the post, you also talk about as much as we want to change the way people run their companies and think.
Lenny Rachitsky：在这篇文章中，您还谈到了我们希望改变人们经营公司和思维方式的内容。
I love your advice of you also still have to learn how to speak up and act more extroverted even though it's not natural to you.
我喜欢你的建议，你仍然需要学习如何说话和表现得更外向，尽管这对你来说并不自然。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Deb Liu: I think we do a disservice when we say we're not good at speaking up because it's a skill like any other.
Deb Liu：我认为，当我们说自己不擅长发声时，我们是在伤害自己，因为这是一种与其他技能一样的技能。
And if I told you the difference between your product being successful and not being successful is you giving this presentation, they're going to kill your product if you don't sell this to the executives.
如果我告诉你你的产品成功与不成功之间的区别就在于你是否进行了这次演示，那么如果你不将其出售给高管，他们就会杀死你的产品。
You would figure out a way to stand in front of those executives and defend the freaking heck out of your product.
你会想办法站在那些高管面前，为你的产品辩护。
But why aren't you doing that every day?
但你为什么不每天都这样做呢？
Deb Liu: And I think sometimes we forget that not everything is as essential as they're going to cut your product if you can't convince them to keep it.
Deb Liu：我认为有时我们会忘记，并不是所有事情都那么重要，因为如果你不能说服他们保留你的产品，他们就会削减你的产品。
But every day you're actually building credibility for your team, getting more resources, getting more people to talk about your product inside your company, getting more press for the product outside.
但每天你实际上都在为你的团队建立信誉，获得更多资源，让更多的人在公司内部谈论你的产品，在外部获得更多关于产品的媒体报道。
All of those things combined into momentum for your product.
所有这些因素结合起来为您的产品带来动力。
And don't you want the best thing for your product and your customers?
您难道不想为您的产品和客户提供最好的东西吗？
Deb Liu: So if you think about it that way, it's not, well, I'm uncomfortable.
Deb Liu：所以如果你这样想的话，我并不是感到不舒服。
I hear this a lot where people say, "Well, you wouldn't understand.
我经常听到人们说：“好吧，你不会明白的。
I'm an introvert." And I'm like, "So was I." But instead I just said, "Okay, this is a necessary skill and it's a learnable skill.
我是一个内向的人。”我想，“我也是。”但我只是说：“好吧，这是一项必要的技能，而且是一项可以学习的技能。
You don't have to be comfortable with it.
你不必对此感到舒服。
You don't have to love it, but you just have to do it."
你不必热爱它，但你必须这样做。”
Lenny Rachitsky: What about from another perspective of why people don't do this, which is it feels like self-promotion and it feels like icky like, "I'm just sitting around promoting myself.
Lenny Rachitsky：从另一个角度来看人们为什么不这样做，这感觉像是自我推销，而且感觉很恶心，“我只是坐着推销自己。
I don't want to be doing that." Anything there that helps people get over that piece?
我不想那样做。”有什么可以帮助人们克服这个问题的吗？
Deb Liu: Well, I just remember I was talking to this ERG group and I was asking about...
Deb Liu：嗯，我只记得我正在与这个 ERG 小组交谈，我问的是......
There was an upcoming calibration and self reviews were due in a couple of days.
即将进行校准，几天后将进行自我审查。
And I said, "Well, what are you doing for your self-review?" And somebody raised their hand and said, "Well, I'm really bad at self-promotion.
我说：“那么，你在做什么自我审查呢？”有人举手说：“嗯，我真的不擅长自我推销。
What advice would you have for me?" And I said, "If you think your self-review is self-promotion, you're just not going to do a great job at it."
你会给我什么建议？”我说：“如果你认为自我审查是自我推销，那么你就不会做得很好。”
Deb Liu: What if I called it educating your manager about all the great work your team has been doing?
Deb Liu：如果我称其为向您的经理介绍您的团队所做的所有出色工作呢？
What if I called it helping people see why your team should get more resources?
如果我称其为帮助人们了解为什么您的团队应该获得更多资源呢？
Suddenly you're cracking open, you're changing the question right from, "Oh, I was self-promoting to actually I'm helping my team get more resources and support." And suddenly she was like, "Oh yeah, I never thought about it that way."
突然间，你敞开心扉，将问题从“哦，我是在自我推销，实际上我是在帮助我的团队获得更多资源和支持。”突然她说：“哦，是的，我从来没有那样想过。”
Deb Liu: But I think often if you frame it one way, it looks like self-promotion.
Deb Liu：但我认为，如果你以一种方式来表达的话，通常看起来就像是自我推销。
I wouldn't want to do that because of self-promotion.
我不想因为自我推销而这样做。
But at the same time, if it's education, what if I said, "I was talking to a PM who's really incredible.
但与此同时，如果是教育，如果我说：“我正在和一位非常不可思议的总理交谈，该怎么办？
I've mentored him and sponsored him for a long time." And I said, "I don't understand why you don't have more of a voice.
我长期以来一直指导并赞助他。”我说：“我不明白为什么你没有更多的发言权。
You've learned so much about the craft.
你已经学到了很多关于这门手艺的知识。
You've done this at multiple companies." And he said exactly what you said which is I'm not really self-promoting.
你已经在多家公司做过这样的事情了。”他说的正是你所说的，我并不是在自我推销。
Deb Liu: And I said, "If you see it as self-promoting, you will never do it." And so let's talk about why you don't actually do this.
Deb Liu：我说，“如果你认为这是自我推销，你永远不会这样做。”那么让我们来谈谈为什么你不真正这样做。
And he said, "I've seen a lot of people who are really great on LinkedIn write these articles, but they have nothing to back it up." And I don't want to be like them.
他说，“我在 LinkedIn 上看到很多非常优秀的人写了这些文章，但他们没有任何支持。”我不想像他们一样。
And I said, "Okay.
我说：“好吧。
Well, you read my blog, you follow me on LinkedIn, do you think I have nothing to black back it up?" And he's like, "No, of course not."
好吧，你读了我的博客，在 LinkedIn 上关注了我，你认为我没有什么可黑的吗？”他说：“不，当然不是。”
Deb Liu: And I said, "Well, then why do you put yourself in his category instead of mine?" And I think it was just a moment where we just came to an understanding where he in his mind was like, "I don't want to be that person.
Deb Liu：我说，“那你为什么把自己归入他的类别而不是我的类别呢？”我认为那只是一个时刻，我们才了解到他内心的想法，“我不想成为那样的人。
It's an empty vessel that has no substance behind it." And I said, "Do you think the things I write have no substance?" But it was an interesting conversation because he had taken this mantle that it was self-promotion and that behind what if people think I'm nothing behind it?"
它是一个空容器，后面没有任何物质。”我说：“你觉得我写的东西没有实质内容吗？”但这是一次有趣的谈话，因为他认为这是自我推销，如果人们认为我什么都没有背后怎么办？”
Deb Liu: I'm like, "I know you have something behind this.
Deb Liu：我想，“我知道你背后有一些东西。
I have been your manager.
我曾经是你的经理。
I have worked with you for many years, but you see how just reframing it has really changed his way of thinking about it." Still working on him.
我和你一起工作了很多年，但你会看到，仅仅重新构建它就确实改变了他的思考方式。”仍在为他工作。
But I actually think he has so much to give and I think he has learned so much about the craft, and I wish that more product managers feel comfortable that they have something to give to the world.
但我实际上认为他有很多东西可以给予，我认为他在这门手艺上学到了很多东西，我希望更多的产品经理感到放心，因为他们可以向世界奉献一些东西。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think what you're saying right now will resonate with a lot of people when they see people posting.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为当很多人看到人们发帖时，你现在所说的会引起共鸣。
I feel the still of just like, "I don't want to be this guy that's just posting nonsense on LinkedIn just to get likes," even though it's kind of what I do now full time.
我仍然觉得，“我不想成为这个在 LinkedIn 上发布废话只是为了获得喜欢的人，”尽管这是我现在全职做的事情。
Hopefully it's not nonsense.
希望这不是废话。
Deb Liu: But it is all substance.
Deb Liu：但这都是实质内容。
So, Lenny, we know the substance behind it.
所以，莱尼，我们知道其背后的实质。
Lenny Rachitsky: I tried, but I think there's posting on LinkedIn, posting on Twitter.
Lenny Rachitsky：我尝试过，但我认为 LinkedIn 和 Twitter 上都有发帖。
There's like an innate just doing this because I want to get attention when often...
这样做就像是一种本能，因为我经常想引起注意......
And the way I started this is just like things I've learned that I think are useful, I'm just going to put them out there.
我开始做这件事的方式就像我学到的我认为有用的东西一样，我只是把它们放在那里。
So just to double click a little bit, I think this is a really powerful point.
所以只要双击一下，我认为这是一个非常强大的点。
What actually have you found helps people get over that?
您实际上发现了什么可以帮助人们克服这个问题？
Is it someone like you and his corner being like, "You have really great stuff to share, you should actually do it.
是不是像你这样的人，他的角落就像是，“你有很棒的东西要分享，你实际上应该这样做。
Don't be as worried as you are, as you think you might be." Is there anything else that works there?
不要像你想象的那样担心。”还有其他有效的方法吗？
Deb Liu: Actually what worked for me was I was working with Bos and I talk about our relationship in my book, but we made a contract when I started reporting to him.
Deb Liu：实际上对我有用的是我和 Bos 一起工作，我在书中谈论了我们的关系，但当我开始向他汇报时，我们签订了合同。
And Bos, for those of you don't know, is currently the CTO of Meta.
对于那些不知道的人来说，Bos 目前是 Meta 的 CTO。
At the time he was the head of ads and then our team moved into his team.
当时他是广告主管，然后我们的团队就搬到了他的团队。
And so I was reorged into his organization.
于是我就被重组到了他的组织中。
And as I said we did not have the best relationship before that.
正如我所说，在那之前我们的关系并不是最好的。
And so we made a contract to work together and I had written like, "Here's how I want you to take care of my team.
所以我们签订了一份合作合同，我写道：“这就是我希望你照顾我的团队的方式。
Here's how I want you to support our products." And I wrote them this long, my part of the commitment.
这就是我希望您支持我们产品的方式。”我写了这么长的内容，这是我承诺的一部分。
Deb Liu: Then he wrote back, "Here's what I'm asking of you.
Deb Liu：然后他回信说：“这就是我对你的要求。
I want you to write and publish something every month." I was like, "What are you talking about?
我希望你每个月写一些东西并发表一些东西。”我当时想，“你在说什么？
Why would you say that?" He said, "You have so much to teach people.
你为什么这么说？”他说，“你有很多东西可以教给人们。
Just do it." I said, "I don't really have that much to say." And he's like, "Just trust me on this.
就去做吧。”我说，“我真的没什么可说的。”他说，“相信我。
You'll figure it out." His advice was write what you repeat.
你会明白的。”他的建议是写下你重复的内容。
If you say something more than once, just write it down.
如果某件事你说了不止一次，就把它写下来。
And then the next time someone asks you, you can just hand them.
然后下次有人问你时，你就可以递给他们。
Deb Liu: He has a great blog if you have read it.
Deb Liu：如果你读过的话，他有一个很棒的博客。
I just normally thinking that is a weird thing for your new manager to say after you had a lot of conflict together before that.
我通常认为，在你们之前发生过很多冲突之后，你的新经理说出这样的话是很奇怪的。
But he took my contract, which was...
但他拿走了我的合同，那是……
By the way, he's like, "Oh, do you want to codify this in some way?" I'm like, "No, I just..." But every month from then on, I would literally just write something and it was my promise to him.
顺便说一句，他说，“哦，你想以某种方式将其编入法典吗？”我想，“不，我只是……”但从那以后的每个月，我都会写一些东西，这是我对他的承诺。
And I did it faithfully and I published it internally.
我忠实地做到了这一点，并在内部发布了它。
So I didn't publish it externally for a long time.
所以我很长一段时间都没有对外发布。
Deb Liu: And then sometimes they would ask me if I want to publish it externally for the company and I would say yes.
Deb Liu：有时他们会问我是否想为公司对外发布，我会说是。
And so I did it for years.
我就这样做了很多年。
I reported to him for years.
我向他汇报了很多年。
And then we switched managers.
然后我们更换了经理。
He moved over to Reality Labs and then I had a new manager and I continued and I continued this.
他转到现实实验室，然后我有了一位新经理，我继续这样做。
Then I started doing a publicly, and then obviously I wrote a book.
然后我开始公开做，然后显然我写了一本书。
Because of him and his encouragement, it got me to a totally different place.
因为他和他的鼓励，我到达了一个完全不同的地方。
And part of it was just the commitment.
其中一部分只是承诺。
I now had accountability because I knew he was watching.
我现在有责任因为我知道他在看着。
I'm not actually sure if he was actually watching every month.
我实际上不确定他是否真的每个月都在看。
But I felt the accountability to do this and I've done it every single month since.
但我感到有责任这样做，从那以后我每个月都这样做。
Lenny Rachitsky: So it's interesting that that's another example of your manager giving you the space slash forcing you to share publicly being a really good lever to get someone over this fear.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以有趣的是，这是你的经理给你空间削减迫使你公开分享的另一个例子，这是一个非常好的杠杆来让别人克服这种恐惧。
Deb Liu: I think sometimes just doing it gets you over the hump.
Deb Liu：我认为有时只要这样做就能让你渡过难关。
For example, my friend, Ami Vora.
例如，我的朋友阿米·沃拉。
She writes an incredible blog.
她写了一个令人难以置信的博客。
You have not read her Substack, you should.
你还没有读过她的 Substack，你应该读。
But she's an incredible writer.
但她是一位令人难以置信的作家。
She'd write all these things internally and I said, "You should publish this externally." Now she does that and it's really great.
她会在内部写下所有这些内容，我说：“你应该在外部发布这些内容。”现在她做到了，这真的很棒。
And I think part of it was just seeing her just put it out there because she is one of the wisest career coaches that I have and managers that I have ever worked with.
我认为部分原因只是看到她把它放在那里，因为她是我所拥有的最明智的职业教练和我共事过的经理之一。
And so I'm like, "You have so much to say and to share."
所以我想，“你有很多话要说和分享。”
Deb Liu: So to see it out there, I feel like for years we all got the benefit of it because we knew her.
Deb Liu：所以看到它，我觉得多年来我们都从中受益，因为我们认识她。
But the world was not getting the benefit.
但世界并没有从中受益。
So in some ways just having accountability.
所以在某些方面只是有责任。
So we created a little accountability group to help each other write, and it was just a reminder, "Hey, did you do it?" And so I think it's sometimes what's necessary to get over that hump is either having someone forcing you, like your manager who you made a commitment to, or just having a friend to say, "Hey, by the way, where's this month's post?"
因此，我们创建了一个小型问责小组来帮助彼此写作，这只是一个提醒，“嘿，你做到了吗？”所以我认为有时要克服这个困难，要么有人强迫你，比如你向你做出承诺的经理，要么只是有一个朋友说，“嘿，顺便问一下，这个月的帖子在哪里？”
Deb Liu: Those things matter because now you got over the hump of, "I have to do it." And now it's just about how good you're going to make it and how much time you're going to put into it.
Deb Liu：这些事情很重要，因为现在你已经克服了“我必须这样做”的困境。现在关键在于你要做得有多好以及你要投入多少时间。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome advice.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：很棒的建议。
And by the way, folks don't know we've had both Bos and Ami on the podcast in the past.
顺便说一句，人们不知道我们过去曾在播客上同时出现过 Bos 和 Ami。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
And Ami's episode is one of the most popular episodes.
阿米的剧集是最受欢迎的剧集之一。
More popular than Bos, CTO of Meta.
比 Meta 的 CTO Bos 更受欢迎。
Deb Liu: She has a lot of coaching wisdom I think that everyone should hear.
Deb Liu：她有很多执教智慧，我想每个人都应该听听。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, she's amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，她太棒了。
She has a great Substack.
她有一个很棒的子堆栈。
We'll link to it again in the show notes.
我们将在演出笔记中再次链接到它。
We'll link to your Substack as well.
我们还将链接到您的子堆栈。
Lenny Rachitsky: Go Substack.
Lenny Rachitsky：Go Substack。
I want to move in a slightly different direction.
我想朝稍微不同的方向前进。
Talk about growth for a little bit.
稍微谈谈成长。
You have a really nice perspective on how to think about growth.
您对如何思考增长有非常好的看法。
I think a lot of people think of growth as like, "Here's a magic bullet.
我认为很多人都将增长视为“这是一颗灵丹妙药。
We're going to do this thing.
我们要做这件事。
It's going to go, "Wow, we're going to win." And your approach is, you talk about it, it's a game of inches.
它会说：“哇，我们要赢了。”你的方法是，你谈论它，这是一场寸土寸金的游戏。
Growth is a game of inches.
成长是一场寸土寸金的游戏。
Can you talk about your perspective there?
您能谈谈您的看法吗？
Deb Liu: Yeah.
刘黛玉：是的。
Sometimes we think it's like what is the huge step function?
有时我们会想这就像巨大的阶跃函数是什么？
But actually most companies are like...
但实际上大多数公司都是这样的...
We call it points of growth, right?
我们称之为增长点，对吗？
It's like if you can move things 1% a little bit faster every single week, think about the amount of growth you get at the end.
这就像如果你可以每周把事情加快 1% 一点，想想你最终获得的增长量。
And so it's not just, "Okay, what's going to get you the 3X?
所以这不仅仅是“好吧，什么能让你获得 3X？
You can get to 3X 1% at a time, 5% at a time.
一次可以达到 3X 1%，一次可以达到 5%。
Single digit growth.
个位数增长。
And sometimes it is the small things that matter the most.
有时，最重要的是小事情。
And so we think about product-led growth, it's really about finding the aha moments, the opportunities.
因此，我们考虑以产品为主导的增长，这实际上是为了寻找顿悟时刻和机会。
And sometimes opportunities are things that seem really silly.
有时机会是看起来非常愚蠢的事情。
Deb Liu: I heard the story at Facebook that one of the big things was just adding the, next to ads, they put the word create an ad, was one of the biggest growth drivers.
Deb Liu：我在 Facebook 听说过一个故事，其中一件大事就是在广告旁边添加“创建广告”这个词，这是最大的增长动力之一。
And that was it just putting a link because people just didn't know how to get to the ads flow.
这只是放置一个链接，因为人们只是不知道如何进入广告流。
It was things like that where you can actually bend the curve of choices that you make.
正是在这样的事情上，你实际上可以改变你所做的选择的曲线。
Same thing, each of the growth teams I've ever worked on, it's like really the small things adding up.
同样的事情，我曾经工作过的每个增长团队，都是从小事累积起来的。
It is a list we used to work on payments growth and we had a list of a hundred things we were working on hypotheses.
这是我们用来研究支付增长的清单，我们列出了我们正在研究假设的一百件事。
Deb Liu: And then we would pick and we would grow them by picking the first 10 and we would start working on them, the next 10, the next 10, and we would go through these sprint cycles.
Deb Liu：然后我们会挑选并通过挑选前 10 个来培育它们，我们将开始研究它们，接下来的 10 个，再接下来的 10 个，我们将经历这些冲刺周期。
And the same thing when we were growing the ads product as well.
当我们开发广告产品时也是如此。
Marketplace, each of them were just like, "What are the small things that add up to big things?" And I think sometimes we overthink it.
市场上，他们每个人都在想，“什么是小事加起来就是大事？”我认为有时我们想得太多了。
Deb Liu: Instead, you probably have a hundred ideas.
Deb Liu：相反，你可能有一百个想法。
And by the way, it is absolutely okay if the 80% of them don't work.
顺便说一句，如果 80% 不起作用，那绝对没关系。
I tell people sometimes we overthink as product manager if we just had the perfect plan, the perfect battle plan, but instead imagine you're a team and you can ship, I don't know, let's say four things.
我告诉人们，有时我们作为产品经理会过度思考，如果我们有完美的计划、完美的战斗计划，但相反，想象你是一个团队，你可以交付，我不知道，让我们说四件事。
But what if you're a team that can ship 20 things with the same with a 20% success.
但是，如果您的团队可以交付 20 件相同的产品，并且成功率达到 20%，该怎么办？
You get just as much output and yet you know what doesn't work also.
您获得了同样多的输出，但您也知道什么不起作用。
Deb Liu: What if you can move it from 20% to 30%?
Deb Liu：如果你能把它从 20% 提高到 30% 会怎么样？
Suddenly six things work, not just four things.
突然间，有六件事起作用，而不仅仅是四件事。
And so in the same amount of time you have all the lessons of what didn't work, plus you're getting 50% more output.
因此，在相同的时间内，您可以获得所有无效的教训，而且您的产出还会增加 50%。
And so you thinking about growth as this engine of, it's a learning machine of what doesn't work, what you reiterate on, what you change, and you're constantly getting better and better and better.
因此，你将增长视为这个引擎，它是一台学习机器，了解什么不起作用，你重申什么，你改变什么，并且你不断变得越来越好。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think what you're saying will resonate with a lot of product people where there's always this like, "We're just doing a bunch of optimization, incremental work.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为你所说的会引起很多产品人员的共鸣，他们总是这样说，“我们只是在做一堆优化、增量工作。
Still sucks, boring.
还是很烂，无聊。
Let's take some big bets." And in my experience, and sounds like in your experience, a lot of the wins actually...
让我们下一些大赌注吧。”根据我的经验，听起来也像你的经验一样，很多胜利实际上......
And Facebook is famous for this, just relentlessly looking for ways to grow, optimize, optimize, optimize because that's where a lot of growth comes from.
Facebook 以此而闻名，它坚持不懈地寻找增长、优化、优化、优化的方法，因为这是大量增长的来源。
Lenny Rachitsky: At the same time, obviously you need to take some big bets and take some swings and look for step function changes.
Lenny Rachitsky：与此同时，显然你需要下一些大赌注，进行一些调整，寻找阶跃函数的变化。
But I guess for someone that's just like...
但我想对于这样的人来说...
I don't know.
我不知道。
Is there any advice on just creating that culture of like, "It's okay to optimize for a long time, there's a lot of opportunity optimizing"?
对于创建“长时间优化没关系，有很多优化机会”这样的文化有什么建议吗？
Is there anything you've learned there or is it just bringing in a Deb and it has to be a top down?
你在那里学到了什么，还是只是引入了 Deb 并且必须是自上而下的？
Deb Liu: I treat growth like, let's say, a product marketing team.
Deb Liu：我将成长视为产品营销团队。
It is an augmentation for a product that works.
它是对有效产品的增强。
So if you have a core product that works, you have a team that's working on...
因此，如果你有一个有效的核心产品，你就有一个团队正在致力于......
So for us at Ancestry, it's like search and hints of the core.
所以对于我们 Ancestry 来说，这就像核心的搜索和提示。
What is the mechanics?
其机理是什么？
You want people to add people to their family tree.
您希望人们将人员添加到他们的家谱中。
You want them to add stories, okay?
你想让他们添加故事，好吗？
There's teams that make sure that the uptime is good, that the hints are working, the search delivers results.
有些团队会确保正常运行时间良好、提示有效、搜索提供结果。
Deb Liu: And you need those teams, you need those core teams kind of functioning.
Deb Liu：你需要这些团队，你需要那些核心团队的运作。
But growth is actually optimization on top.
但增长实际上是最重要的优化。
It is making it so that you get to the search flow faster.
它使您能够更快地进入搜索流程。
The hints are surfacing better, that people are accepting them, that if we put the button here versus here, that people are going to discover things faster.
提示浮现得更好，人们正在接受它们，如果我们把按钮放在这里而不是放在这里，人们会更快地发现事物。
And so it's really taking the core engine and actually wrapping it around the user interface around the experience, around the flows so that people can get to it faster, they can have more satisfaction, they can have more impact.
因此，它实际上采用了核心引擎，并将其围绕体验、流程围绕用户界面进行包装，以便人们可以更快地获得它，他们可以获得更多满足感，他们可以产生更大影响。
And that's what I see growth as.
这就是我所看到的增长。
It's not the core product.
这不是核心产品。
It is the cherry on top, making that product more accessible and more usable and better every single day.
它是最重要的，使该产品变得更容易获得、更可用、每天都变得更好。
Lenny Rachitsky: Along these lines, I think it surprised people to learn.
Lenny Rachitsky：沿着这些思路，我认为人们得知这一消息感到惊讶。
There's at least a hundred people at our Airbnb just working on pricing, optimizing pricing recommendations.
我们的 Airbnb 至少有 100 名员工负责定价、优化定价建议。
There's endless opportunity to just make all these core components of an experience better and better and better over time.
随着时间的推移，有无限的机会让体验的所有这些核心组成部分变得越来越好。
Okay.
好的。
Last thing I want to talk about, and this is completely unrelated to everything we've been talking about mostly, which is your 30, 60, 90-day plan.
我想谈的最后一件事，这与我们主要谈论的所有事情完全无关，即你的 30、60、90 天计划。
Lenny Rachitsky: So you wrote this post a while ago, just like, here's a great 30, 60, 90-day plan when you join a company.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以你不久前写了这篇文章，就像，当你加入一家公司时，这里有一个很棒的 30 天、60 天、90 天计划。
I've heard that many people use this.
我听说很多人都用这个。
It's really effective for helping someone onboard and be successful.
它对于帮助某人加入并取得成功确实非常有效。
And I think it's mostly for execs or is this for just anyone joining a company?
我认为这主要是针对高管的，还是只针对任何加入公司的人？
Deb Liu: I created, it's actually when I joined Ancestry because I hadn't started a real new job in 11 years.
Deb Liu：我创建的，其实是我加入Ancestry的时候，因为我已经11年没有开始真正的新工作了。
And I thought, I'm going to be a student of how to land well.
我想，我要成为一名如何良好着陆的学生。
So I read a bunch of things, I read and I decided I was going to adapt all of those things into a summary and then I was going to try it real time in my blog.
所以我读了很多东西，我读了，我决定将所有这些东西改编成一个摘要，然后我将在我的博客中实时尝试。
Deb Liu: So in my blog I write, "Here's what I'm going to do," and then I tell you what I did and how it worked and some things.
Deb Liu：所以在我的博客中我写道，“这就是我要做的事情”，然后我告诉你我做了什么、它是如何运作的以及一些事情。
And then I actually do a look back as to all the mistakes I made.
然后我实际上回顾了我所犯的所有错误。
And so I did this live.
所以我现场做了这个。
It was not planned quite as well as I would thought, but I put it together and I wrote the 30, 60, 90-day plan and I have a template.
它的计划并不像我想象的那么好，但我把它放在一起，写了 30 天、60 天、90 天的计划，我有一个模板。
I always tell people it's focused on listening and learning first and then doing.
我总是告诉人们首先要注重倾听和学习，然后再去做。
So that's the crux of it, which is in those 90-days it's like you got to get used to the environment.
所以这就是问题的关键，那就是在这90天里你必须适应环境。
You want to have some impact at the start.
您希望在一开始就产生一些影响。
You want to have a couple quick wins, but you want to understand the lay of the land and you want to listen because you have something to contribute.
你想要快速取得一些胜利，但你想要了解情况并且想要倾听，因为你可以做出一些贡献。
Deb Liu: But if you don't understand the language, you don't understand the culture, you might actually make huge mistakes.
Deb Liu：但是如果你不了解语言，不了解文化，你实际上可能会犯下巨大的错误。
And so for the first 30 days, I did a listening tour.
因此，在前 30 天里，我进行了一次聆听之旅。
I talked to over 60 people in 30 days and then I summarized a state of the union.
我在 30 天内与 60 多人交谈，然后总结了国情咨文。
Here's what I'm hearing, here are the challenges people feel like we're facing.
这是我所听到的，这是人们认为我们面临的挑战。
Here's what people's wishlists are.
这是人们的愿望清单。
And by the way, one person sent me a wishlist of five things and at that year, I think it took me till year two to finish his five things.
顺便说一句，有一个人给我发了一份包含五件事的愿望清单，那一年，我想我花了第二年才完成他的五件事。
And then I sent him a note.
然后我给他发了一张纸条。
I said, "By the way, the first time we met, these five things you wanted to see, we just finished the last one."
我说：“对了，我们第一次见面，你想看的这五件事，我们刚刚完成了最后一个。”
Deb Liu: And he's like, "I can't believe you remember." I took extensive notes and I summarized it.
Deb Liu：他说，“我不敢相信你还记得。”我做了很多笔记并总结了它。
I think it's important because people want to hear that you hear them.
我认为这很重要，因为人们希望听到你听到他们的声音。
And you don't have to be a manager or CEO to do that.
而且您不必成为经理或首席执行官才能做到这一点。
I think people on teams often feel like there's no outlet for the things that they want to say.
我认为团队中的人们常常觉得他们想说的话没有出口。
I encourage, especially product leaders, especially if you're joining an existing team, to listen really behind what people are saying and then offer to help them do one thing.
我鼓励，特别是产品负责人，特别是如果您要加入现有团队，要真正倾听人们的意见，然后主动帮助他们做一件事。
Deb Liu: So especially when you're meeting with a new engineering team for the first time, actually ask them, what is one thing I can do to help you this week?
Deb Liu：所以特别是当你第一次与新的工程团队会面时，实际上问他们，这周我可以做些什么来帮助你？
I always say one thing, it's limited.
我总是说一件事，它是有限的。
This week, so getting 15 new headcount.
本周，新增 15 名员工。
Probably not going to happen.
可能不会发生。
And it's like, how can I give back?
就像，我该如何回报？
And suddenly you're building a reciprocal relationship.
突然之间，你们就建立了一种互惠的关系。
And so a lot of this 30, 60, 90-day plan is really to help you find your footing and then to start having impact immediately.
因此，这个 30 天、60 天、90 天计划的大部分内容实际上是为了帮助您找到立足点，然后立即开始产生影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: Say you join a company and you're like, "I'm going to do 30 days listening," and then your boss is like, "No, we need to ship stuff.
Lenny Rachitsky：假设你加入一家公司，你会说，“我要进行 30 天的倾听”，然后你的老板会说，“不，我们需要运送东西。
Get on it, ship this stuff." Is there any advice for trying to push back on that, create space for listening when there's deadlines, things aren't ?
上车吧，运送这些东西。”有什么建议可以尝试推迟这一点，在截止日期到来时创造倾听的空间吗？
Deb Liu: I encourage everybody to get on the same page on this 30, 60, 90-day plan with their manager.
Deb Liu：我鼓励每个人在这个 30、60、90 天的计划上与他们的经理达成一致。
So actually don't just keep it to yourself.
所以实际上不要只把它留给自己。
Share it with as many people as you can.
与尽可能多的人分享。
So I think it's very important that everyone sees what you're trying to accomplish and what your output is going to be.
所以我认为让每个人都看到你想要完成什么以及你的产出是什么是非常重要的。
Because if you don't know the output, is success there?
因为如果你不知道输出，那成功了吗？
The second part is with your manager say, "Okay.
第二部分是你的经理说：“好吧。
I would like to carve 20% of my time listening and I'm happy to do this work 80% of the time." Therefore every morning from nine to 10, I want to talk to somebody in the organization.
我愿意花 20% 的时间来聆听，并且我很乐意用 80% 的时间来做这项工作。”因此每天早上九点到十点，我想和组织里的某个人谈谈。
Deb Liu: Just make sure you say, "I will do a better job and have more impact if I have this time to make sure that I'm not accidentally making mistake or I don't get a chance, I'm asking something of somebody, but I've never met them." And to really carve out space because it's really important.
Deb Liu：只要确保你说，“如果我有这个时间来确保我不会无意中犯错误或我没有机会，我会做得更好，并产生更大的影响，我正在向某人询问一些事情，但我从未见过他们。”并真正开辟空间，因为这非常重要。
Once you're in it, people give you the new person card for maybe a month or two and then suddenly it's all the problems are your problems.
一旦你加入其中，人们会给你新的人员卡，也许一两个月，然后突然间，所有的问题都是你的问题。
Deb Liu: But what if you don't know what the problems are?
Deb Liu：但是如果你不知道问题是什么怎么办？
And so I always say diagnose before you treat.
所以我总是说先诊断再治疗。
So make sure you understand so that you can help and deliver what your manager is actually expecting of you.
因此，请确保您理解，以便您可以帮助并实现经理对您的实际期望。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm looking at your template.
Lenny Rachitsky：我正在看你的模板。
So just to share the bucket.
所以只是分享桶。
So first 30 days learning focus, second 30 days is aligning on vision for the future, and the last 30 days of the 90 days is executing, setting up, actually starting to get stuff done.
因此，前 30 天是学习重点，第二个 30 天是调整未来的愿景，而 90 天中的最后 30 天是执行、设置、实际开始完成工作。
Awesome.
惊人的。
Anything else along these lines of this?
与此相关的还有其他内容吗？
Deb Liu: The one thing about having a plan also is that you don't feel rushed to do something that you're not ready for because I do think sometimes you feel like you need to have impact.
Deb Liu：制定计划的另一件事是，你不会觉得急于去做一些你还没有准备好的事情，因为我确实认为有时你会觉得你需要产生影响。
I always tell people, "Do something small, give back in some ways that people see you making." But when you actually reflect, one of the biggest things I could do was actually reflect back to the organization, "Here's what I heard from all of you.
我总是告诉人们，“做一些小事，以人们看到你所做的一些方式回馈社会。”但当你真正反思时，我能做的最重要的事情之一实际上就是向组织反映，“这是我从你们所有人那里听到的。
I'm listening, I hear this and here's what I want to do about it."
我在听，我听到了这个，这就是我想做的事情。”
Deb Liu: And then in aligning it's like, "Do we agree this is a set of problems we want to tackle?" And then an execution is like, "Do we agree that this is how we want to move forward?" And I think that is such an important part of building into a team.
Deb Liu：然后在调整时就像是，“我们是否同意这是我们想要解决的一系列问题？”然后执行就像，“我们同意这就是我们想要前进的方式吗？”我认为这是构建团队的重要组成部分。
When you enter an organization, you're also entering a team and you're part of a dance that's going around.
当你进入一个组织时，你也就进入了一个团队，并且你成为了舞蹈的一部分。
What role do you play?
你扮演什么角色？
And people are dancing around you and if you actually make a mistake, you could trip other people up as well.
人们在你周围跳舞，如果你真的犯了错误，你也可能会绊倒其他人。
So really finding your place in the dance is really important.
因此，真正找到自己在舞蹈中的位置非常重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: And as a PM, the way I always think about is people won't assume they should trust you.
Lenny Rachitsky：作为一名产品经理，我一直认为人们不会认为他们应该信任你。
You're just this person that's coming in to tell them what to do and so much of your first month, two, three is building that trust with people so that they can actually feel comfortable listening to your guidance and not just like, "Oh my god.
你只是来告诉他们该做什么的人，你的第一个月、第二个月、第三个月的大部分时间都是在与人们建立信任，这样他们才能真正感到舒服地聆听你的指导，而不仅仅是说，“哦，天哪。
This person is getting in my way."
这个人妨碍了我。”
Deb Liu: And earning that trust, sometimes people really...
Deb Liu：赢得这种信任，有时人们真的......
You'd be really surprised, a lot of people feel like they're not heard and even just coming in and listening is a trust building exercise.
你真的会感到惊讶，很多人感觉他们的声音没有被听到，甚至只是进来倾听也是一种建立信任的练习。
Lenny Rachitsky: Such a good point.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个很好的观点。
As we wrap up our conversation, just a couple more questions here.
当我们结束谈话时，还有几个问题。
So first is I want to take us to Contrarian Corner, which is a segment on this podcast.
首先，我想带我们去“逆向角落”，这是该播客的一个部分。
And my question is there something that you believe that you think most other people don't believe?
我的问题是，有一些你认为大多数人不相信的事情吗？
Something that you think is a contrarian perspective?
您认为什么是逆向观点？
Deb Liu: I don't know if this is a contrarian perspective, but I go to speak in a lot of universities.
Deb Liu：我不知道这是否是逆向观点，但我去很多大学演讲。
So I speak at Stanford and I'm going to speak at Duke.
我将在斯坦福大学演讲，并将在杜克大学演讲。
And I always tell people, especially young people, the most important career decision you make is who you marry.
我总是告诉人们，尤其是年轻人，你做出的最重要的职业决定就是你嫁给谁。
And it's not something we think that much about, especially I started dating...
这不是我们想太多的事情，尤其是我开始约会......
I met my husband when I was 18, my first weekend in college.
我 18 岁那年认识了我的丈夫，那是我上大学的第一个周末。
Started dating when I was 19.
我19岁时开始约会。
We had no idea what our life was going to be like and yet every single day like this week we had our board meeting, I was in Utah the whole week.
我们不知道我们的生活会是什么样子，但像本周这样的每一天我们都会召开董事会会议，我整个星期都在犹他州。
I come home and he's taking care of everything.
我回到家，他正在处理一切。
Deb Liu: You will have a much more successful career if your home life is in balance.
Deb Liu：如果你的家庭生活平衡的话，你的事业将会更加成功。
It's like a yin and a yang.
就像阴和阳一样。
If something is out of balance, it engulfs the other side.
如果有什么东西失去平衡，它就会吞没另一边。
Both your job and your home life.
无论是你的工作还是你的家庭生活。
And especially, we have three kids.
尤其是，我们有三个孩子。
Really balancing that is very hard over both of us having demanding careers.
由于我们俩的职业要求很高，真正平衡这一点非常困难。
It's not something that's contrarian, but it's something which we don't think about at all when we make that decision.
这并不是逆向思维，而是我们在做出决定时根本没有考虑到的事情。
We think is this person fun to be with?
我们认为和这个人在一起有趣吗？
Is this person somebody we see ourselves with?
这个人是我们认为与之在一起的人吗？
But my question is what is the impact of this relationship on your career?
但我的问题是这段关系对你的职业生涯有什么影响？
Deb Liu: Is this person lifting you up or pushing you back?
Deb Liu：这个人是在提升你还是在推你后退？
Is this person someone who's going to be your greatest cheerleader or are they going to be the greatest weight on you?
这个人会成为你最好的啦啦队长，还是会成为你最大的负担？
How do you think that that's going to manifest itself 20 years, 30 years from now?
您认为 20 年、30 年后这将如何体现？
And I think it's just something I wish we thought about more and I encourage especially young people to think about that.
我认为这只是我希望我们更多地考虑的事情，我特别鼓励年轻人考虑这一点。
Lenny Rachitsky: Such a great point.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个很好的观点。
What I want now is a guide for vetting these things when you're dating.
我现在想要的是约会时审查这些事情的指南。
Deb's guide to dating.
黛布的约会指南。
Deb Liu: I need to write that.
Deb Liu：我需要写这个。
Although I've only really dated him, the one person, so maybe I am like the worst person to tell.
虽然我只和他约会过，只有一个人，所以也许我是最难说出口的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: But it worked, so you're maybe the best person and now you look back.
Lenny Rachitsky：但这确实有效，所以你可能是最好的人，现在你回头看。
Lenny Rachitsky: And here's the questions I asked that worked.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是我提出的有效问题。
That's so funny.
太有趣了。
Okay, so before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you think might be helpful to share, something you might want to leave listeners with?
好的，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您认为还有什么可以分享的，或者您可能想留给听众的东西吗？
Any other nuggets of wisdom or advice?
还有其他智慧或建议吗？
Deb Liu: Well, there's one quote which I share, I thought about when you were speaking earlier, which is about people who are resilient, which is life...
Deb Liu：嗯，我分享一句名言，当你早些时候发言时我想到了这一点，这句话是关于有韧性的人，这就是生活......
This is a quote from Chuck Swindoll, he's a Christian writer I used to read a lot and it was, "Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it." And I just looked him up recently and he actually published a book with that quote.
这是查克·斯温多尔 (Chuck Swindoll) 的一句话，他是一位基督教作家，我曾经读过很多这句话，“生活的 10% 取决于发生在你身上的事情，90% 取决于你对它的反应。”我最近查了一下他，他实际上出版了一本引用这句话的书。
He actually had that quote in a previous book from 20 years ago.
事实上，他在 20 年前的一本书中引用过这句话。
Deb Liu: And I just think that's so important.
Deb Liu：我认为这非常重要。
You don't get to choose everything that happens in your life.
你无法选择生活中发生的一切。
So much is just, it just happens, but it's the people who choose a way forward to turn stumbling blocks and the stepping stones.
一切都是正义的，它只是发生了，但正是人们选择了一条前进的道路，以扭转绊脚石和踏脚石。
As I said, "Somebody who actually says, 'you know what?
正如我所说，“有人实际上说，‘你知道吗？
I didn't get the job that I wanted and I'm just going to figure out another path,' those are the people who have the most successful and satisfying careers." They're thinking when other people are zagging vice versa.
我没有得到我想要的工作，我只是想找到另一条路，’这些人拥有最成功和最令人满意的职业生涯。”当其他人在拐弯抹角时，他们却在思考，反之亦然。
And I think that there are the ones who are the most resilient and happy in the long term.
我认为从长远来看，有些人是最有弹性和最快乐的。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's such a good circle back to one of your first pieces of advice of just most successful people are people that are resilient and don't avoid failure, but embrace it and find a way to turn that around.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的循环，回到你的第一条建议，大多数成功人士都是有韧性的人，不会避免失败，而是拥抱失败并找到扭转局面的方法。
I think it's such an important point.
我认为这是非常重要的一点。
It's so hard to do.
这太难做到了。
I guess just, I don't know, just to follow this thread a little bit, is there anything that has helped you build that?
我想只是，我不知道，只是稍微跟随这个线程，有什么可以帮助你构建它吗？
Has that always been the way your mind worked?
你的思维一直都是这样运作的吗？
I imagine coaching helps this, helps people with this." Is there anything just like that?
我想教练可以帮助人们做到这一点。”有类似的事情吗？
Deb Liu: Coaching is incredible for that.
Deb Liu：教练在这方面是不可思议的。
We joke it's work therapy, but really I think it's...
我们开玩笑说这是工作疗法，但我真的认为这是......
For a long time I saw failure as this catastrophic thing.
很长一段时间我都把失败视为灾难性的事情。
I was one of those kids who's like, "You never got a B until..." Then I got to college and I was like, "Wow, this is harder than I thought." And so I got two B's in college and I'm like, "I'm never doing that again." But I was that kid who always got the A, who got the great scores.
我是那些喜欢“你从来没有得到B直到......”的孩子之一，然后我上了大学，我想，“哇，这比我想象的要难。”所以我在大学得到了两个 B，我想，“我再也不会这样做了。”但我是那个总是得A的孩子，成绩很好。
I just thought that my life would end if I got a B which by the way is super unhealthy.
我只是想，如果我得了 B，我的生命就会结束，顺便说一句，这是超级不健康的。
Deb Liu: And looking back, I realized that work is not like that at all.
Deb Liu：回想起来，我发现工作根本不是那样的。
And every time I got bad feedback I'm like, "This is catastrophic." But if you look at feedback as an opportunity, then it's very different.
每次我收到不好的反馈时，我都会想，“这是灾难性的。”但如果你将反馈视为一个机会，那就大不一样了。
It's like this is a gift.
就好像这是一份礼物。
I would be crushed.
我会被压垮的。
Every time I get a review no matter what rating I got, I would read the things that people would say and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm a terrible person." And I had to really rethink that.
每次我收到评论时，无论我得到什么评级，我都会阅读人们会说的话，然后我就会想，“天哪，我是一个糟糕的人。”我必须重新思考这一点。
And I think coaching, leadership coaching has really helped me through that to say, "No, how do you process this and how do you get to the other side?"
我认为教练、领导力教练确实帮助我解决了这个问题，“不，你如何处理这个问题以及如何到达另一边？”
Deb Liu: And that has been so transformative for me is to have that outlet to actually talk through.
Deb Liu：对我来说，改变是因为有了一个可以真正交谈的渠道。
No, no, no. What they're saying is not that you're a bad product person, it's that you need to do a better job communicating or connecting.
不，不，不。他们所说的并不是你是一个糟糕的产品人员，而是你需要更好地进行沟通或联系。
And I really struggled with that.
我真的很挣扎。
I was very transactional.
我非常善于交易。
I was not a connector.
我不是一个连接器。
I was not warm.
我不热。
I really struggled with relationships.
我真的很挣扎于人际关系。
And a lot of the feedback I received for many years is this relationship issue.
多年来我收到的很多反馈都是这个关系问题。
And it took me a long time to realize that people aren't saying this because I'm a bad person or that they hate me, but because they want to connect.
我花了很长时间才意识到人们这么说并不是因为我是一个坏人或者他们恨我，而是因为他们想要联系。
Deb Liu: I was actually making it hard.
Deb Liu：实际上是我让事情变得困难了。
And I think sometimes we take things so personally that it becomes kind of this thing.
我认为有时我们把事情看得太个人化，以至于事情变成了这样。
It is your white whale.
这是你的白鲸。
It's like the thing you're chasing, but then what if you say, "You know what, I don't need to do that.
这就像你正在追逐的东西，但如果你说：“你知道吗，我不需要那样做。
I don't need to chase that.
我不需要去追那个。
Instead I need to figure out what's behind the feedback and what are they trying to say?" And then actually change yourself over a long period of time towards that.
相反，我需要弄清楚反馈背后的内容以及他们想说什么？”然后在很长一段时间内为此真正改变自己。
Lenny Rachitsky: I had similar challenges where I had this pretty real imposter syndrome for a while when I started doing well.
Lenny Rachitsky：我也遇到过类似的挑战，当我开始表现良好时，我有一段时间患有这种真正的冒名顶替综合症。
And a coach was the key for me to help me get over that and see that if I made a mistake.
教练是我的关键，可以帮助我克服这个问题，并看到我是否犯了错误。
Things wouldn't crumble.
事情不会崩溃。
And that it's very normal to make mistakes.
犯错误是很正常的。
Nobody will-
没有人会——
Deb Liu: And by the way, I think perfectionism is a curse we place on ourselves.
Deb Liu：顺便说一句，我认为完美主义是我们对自己的诅咒。
And it's a very dangerous thing, particularly for product leaders because product managers, you know things are going to go wrong.
这是一件非常危险的事情，特别是对于产品负责人来说，因为产品经理，你知道事情会出错。
That's literally part of your job.
这实际上是你工作的一部分。
And yet when we have perfectionism, it is a lack of trust in our ability to bounce back and our ability to actually adapt.
然而，当我们有完美主义时，我们就缺乏对自己恢复能力和实际适应能力的信任。
But the more adaptable you are, the less you have to be perfect every single time.
但你的适应能力越强，你就越不需要每次都做到完美。
Lenny Rachitsky: Just to leave people with a tactical piece of advice, say they are like, "Oh man, I need a coach," do you have any advice for how to find a coach?
Lenny Rachitsky：只是为了给人们提供战术建议，让他们说，“哦，伙计，我需要一名教练”，你对如何寻找教练有什么建议吗？
How to explore that route?
如何探索该路线？
Deb Liu: So I actually wrote an article, because one of the things I struggle with coaching is very expensive often, and not every company provides it.
Deb Liu：所以我实际上写了一篇文章，因为我在辅导中遇到的困难之一通常是非常昂贵的，而且并不是每个公司都提供它。
My husband actually works at a coaching company called Sounding Board to make it more accessible.
我丈夫实际上在一家名为 Sounding Board 的教练公司工作，以使其更容易接近。
But one of the things I encourage people to do is there are other ways to get coaches.
但我鼓励人们做的一件事是通过其他方式获得教练。
I'm in a lean-in group and we are just like, we support each other.
我在一个精益小组中，我们就像，我们互相支持。
I'm in a coaching circle in YPO, so that's a group of CEOs.
我在 YPO 的教练圈子里，所以这是一群首席执行官。
And I'm in a number of these coaching circles, which give you an opportunity to learn from each other and to get pure coaching.
我在很多这样的教练圈子里，这让你有机会互相学习并获得纯粹的教练。
And I think that's a great place to start, especially early in your career when you're seeing the same people making the same mistakes.
我认为这是一个很好的起点，尤其是在你职业生涯的早期，当你看到同样的人犯同样的错误时。
Deb Liu: I think as you get more senior, having an individual coach helps because the situations are so much more unique.
Deb Liu：我认为当你的级别越来越高时，拥有一名单独的教练会有所帮助，因为情况更加独特。
But I do think that having that outlet, having a place to say, "Hey, is it me or is this situation not right?
但我确实认为，有了这个出口，就有一个地方可以说：“嘿，是我的问题还是这种情况不对？
And how should I think through this?" That's so incredibly important.
我应该如何思考这个问题？”这非常重要。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm listening to this book, or reading a book called Listen right now that a previous guest recommended.
Lenny Rachitsky：我正在听这本书，或者正在读之前一位客人推荐的一本名为《Listen now》的书。
It's a parenting book and it's about just the power of listening and how much that solves many problems with your challenges or with your child.
这是一本育儿书，讲述的是倾听的力量，以及倾听可以在多大程度上解决你面临的挑战或孩子的许多问题。
When your child is having a problem just listening to them.
当您的孩子遇到问题时，只需倾听他们的意见即可。
There's a lot of power.
有很大的力量。
This came from a coach that was on the podcast recently.
这是最近在播客上的一位教练说的。
Deb Liu: Sounds great.
黛布·刘：听起来很棒。
I'll definitely, I'll read it or listen to it.
我一定会，我会读它或听它。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know it's weird.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道这很奇怪。
I'm like reading, it's called Listen.
我喜欢读书，这叫听。
He's like, "This is the only parenting book you need really.
他说：“这是你真正需要的唯一一本育儿书。
It solves all the problems that we deal with." So anyway, that was an awesome final nugget that I'm glad we got there.
它解决了我们要处理的所有问题。”所以无论如何，这是一个很棒的最终成果，我很高兴我们到达了那里。
With that though, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
尽管如此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's do it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：让我们开始吧。
First question, what are two or three books that you've most recommended to other people?
第一个问题，您最常向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Deb Liu: So I love the book from Professor Jeffrey Pfeffer.
Deb Liu：所以我喜欢 Jeffrey Pfeffer 教授的书。
I speak in his class now that I read it way before that, it's called Power: Who Has It and Why.
我在他的课上发言，因为我在那之前就读过这本书，它的名字叫《权力：谁拥有它以及为什么》。
I love the book.
我喜欢这本书。
He actually has the more practical one, 7 Rules of Power, which came out more recently.
他实际上有更实用的一个，即最近发布的《权力的七条规则》。
And so it's a book that reminds us that power is not accidental, that people often get it for different reasons and how you should think about the playing field.
因此，这本书提醒我们，权力不是偶然的，人们经常因为不同的原因而获得权力，以及你应该如何看待竞争环境。
Deb Liu: Another book is The Conversation, Dr. Livingston wrote that about race in America, and I just love that it's a very honest assessment of race in America.
Deb Liu：另一本书是《对话》，利文斯顿博士写了关于美国种族的书，我很喜欢它对美国种族的非常诚实的评估。
It's hard to have that conversation and I love that he uses a lot of facts and encourages people to open up and have conversations around it.
进行这样的对话很困难，我喜欢他使用大量事实并鼓励人们敞开心扉并围绕它进行对话。
And then the last one I would say is, well, Susan Cain's Quiet.
我要说的最后一个是苏珊·凯恩的《安静》。
I adore the book because I do have introverted kids.
我喜欢这本书，因为我确实有内向的孩子。
I myself am introverted and just to read the power of introverts as a reminder that we do have amazing people who don't communicate the same way.
我本人很内向，只是想通过阅读内向者的力量来提醒我们，我们确实有一些很棒的人，他们的沟通方式不同。
Deb Liu: I love that it's a tribute to the success of those.
Deb Liu：我喜欢这是对这些人的成功的致敬。
Even if our workplace is not adapted to it, I do think we need to adapt to it so that we can bring the best in everybody.
即使我们的工作场所不适应它，我确实认为我们需要适应它，这样我们才能让每个人都发挥出最好的一面。
But her book is a reminder that there's so much power even in silence.
但她的书提醒我们，即使在沉默中也有如此大的力量。
Lenny Rachitsky: The first book you mentioned Jeffrey Pfeffer, he's been on the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：您提到 Jeffrey Pfeffer 的第一本书，他一直在播客上。
I think he may have mentioned you in our conversation or-
我想他可能在我们的谈话中提到了你或者-
Lenny Rachitsky: That was a fun conversation because I came into it very nervous for what his advice would be and then came up with it being like, "This is great.
Lenny Rachitsky：那是一次有趣的谈话，因为我对他的建议感到非常紧张，然后想到的是，“这太棒了。
This is-"
这是——”
Lenny Rachitsky: He's very wise and just very, "I don't care what you think, I'm just going to tell you the reality of the world." Oh man.
Lenny Rachitsky：他非常聪明，“我不在乎你怎么想，我只是要告诉你世界的现实。”噢，伙计。
Okay.
好的。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?
您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Deb Liu: Okay.
刘黛玉：好的。
I know this is a fandom thing, but I love Fallout.
我知道这是粉丝的事情，但我喜欢《辐射》。
So I played the game Fallout 4 last year, and then the show came out and it was amazing.
所以我去年玩了《辐射 4》这个游戏，然后这个节目出来了，真是太棒了。
And I know that sounds so nerdy, but it was incredible.
我知道这听起来很书呆子气，但这真是令人难以置信。
And I know that video game movie annotations tend to be terrible, but it was so great and having played the game it was even better.
我知道视频游戏电影注释往往很糟糕，但它太棒了，玩过游戏后感觉更好。
Is that super nerdy?
这是超级书呆子吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: No, I watched Fallout.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：不，我看了《辐射》。
I don't know anything about the game, but the show itself was really fun.
我对这个游戏一无所知，但节目本身真的很有趣。
Just I had no idea what I was even getting into.
只是我根本不知道自己在做什么。
So no. Acceptable nerdy level.
所以不。可以接受的书呆子水平。
I don't know if you can get too nerdy on this show.
我不知道你在这个节目中是否会变得太书呆子。
Next question, do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you just really like?
下一个问题是，您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
Deb Liu: Well, so actually what's really interesting is I never got into Twitter.
Deb Liu：嗯，实际上真正有趣的是我从来没有上过 Twitter。
I just couldn't figure it out.
我就是想不通。
Recently I really got into Threads and I didn't think I would.
最近我真正迷上了Threads，但我认为我不会。
I was like, "Well, just post some stuff on it," but really I just love...
我当时想，“好吧，就在上面发布一些东西”，但实际上我只是喜欢......
I could never figure out Twitter.
我永远无法理解推特。
You follow the wrong person and the whole thing, it's terrible.
你追随了错误的人以及整个事情，这太可怕了。
If somebody is posting too much or too little, but there's something about the Threads algorithm that's really worked.
如果有人发帖太多或太少，但线程算法确实有效。
The first few months wasn't quite there, but I just feel like it's spot on and now I see the magic of it.
最初的几个月并不完全如此，但我只是觉得它恰到好处，现在我看到了它的魔力。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's so interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。
I've seen some stats that it's bigger than X now slash Twitter and I wonder if that's true.
我看到一些统计数据显示它比 X 现在削减 Twitter 还要大，我想知道这是否属实。
I got to look that up, but I've seen more activity on Threads.
我必须查一下，但我在线程上看到了更多活动。
So maybe I need to go back there.
所以也许我需要回到那里。
I spent some time around-
我花了一些时间-
Deb Liu: Cheering from the sidelines that it's successful because I use it a lot now.
Deb Liu：在一旁欢呼它的成功，因为我现在经常使用它。
And I guess I had never had a place for realtime news and it's not exactly meant to be newsy, but maybe it's just who I follow, but I love just seeing like, "Here's five headlines you probably missed." And I was like, "Oh." I know they're trying to downplay politics, but I just love that it feels like you get a glimpse of what's going on in the world in five minutes."
我想我从来没有一个地方可以看到实时新闻，而且它并不完全意味着新闻，但也许这只是我关注的人，但我喜欢看到这样的内容，“这是你可能错过的五个头条新闻。”我当时想，“哦。”我知道他们试图淡化政治，但我就是喜欢这种感觉，就像你在五分钟内就能一睹世界上正在发生的事情。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
Two more questions.
还有两个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often think about, come back to, share with friends or family find useful in work or in life?
您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常思考、回想并与朋友或家人分享，并发现它在工作或生活中有用？
Deb Liu: Ooh, that's a good question.
Deb Liu：哦，这是个好问题。
Well, actually, I would say that it's very similar to the Chuck Swindoll one about life.
嗯，实际上，我想说这与查克·斯温多尔的人生观非常相似。
So we can use that.
所以我们可以使用它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Great.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
That's what I imagined because you shared that one early on.
这就是我的想象，因为你很早就分享了这一点。
And I imagine that was going to be your answer.
我想这就是你的答案。
Final question, you started Facebook Marketplace, you built it.
最后一个问题，您创建了 Facebook Marketplace，并构建了它。
Now, it has a billion users, more than that.
现在，它拥有十亿用户，甚至更多。
What's the most interesting thing that you have bought or sold on Facebook Marketplace?
您在 Facebook Marketplace 上购买或出售的最有趣的东西是什么？
Deb Liu: The best thing I ever sold on there was I sold my minivan on it and in four days.
Deb Liu：我在那里卖过的最好的东西是我在四天内卖掉了我的小型货车。
I made my husband do it because I wanted him to test the product.
我让我丈夫这样做是因为我想让他测试该产品。
We were selling our minivan and I'm like, "Just try Facebook Marketplace." He's like, "I don't know about this." And he's like, "There's too many people contacting me.
我们正在出售我们的小型货车，我想，“试试 Facebook Marketplace。”他说：“我不知道这件事。”他说：“有太多人联系我。
I needed it to stop." So it worked really well for us.
我需要它停下来。”所以它对我们来说非常有效。
I think I have bought so many things on there.
我想我在那里买了很多东西。
It's actually sort of embarrassing.
其实这有点尴尬。
Deb Liu: Recently, my daughter wanted the same desk as I had for her new room and they no longer sell it at Costco.
Deb Liu：最近，我女儿想要在她的新房间使用与我相同的桌子，但 Costco 不再出售它。
And I found it for half the price from a woman who was moving and she's like, "Here," and I love it.
我以一半的价格从一位正在搬家的女士那里找到了它，她说，“在这里，”我喜欢它。
So I bought probably way too many things on Facebook Marketplace actually.
所以我实际上在 Facebook Marketplace 上买了太多东西。
But it's a great thing.
但这是一件很棒的事情。
I actually use it as a great rental for kid stuff because you buy a kid's bike and then when they outgrow it, you sell it back.
事实上，我用它来出租儿童用品，因为你买了一辆儿童自行车，当他们长大了，用不完时，你就把它卖回来。
Deb Liu: And the rental fee is almost free and I don't have the store all of it.
Deb Liu：而且租金几乎是免费的，而且我没有商店的全部。
So I love every part of it.
所以我喜欢它的每一部分。
I still am an admin user and I send a lot of feedback back to that team still.
我仍然是管理员用户，并且仍然向该团队发送大量反馈。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Deb, this was amazing.
黛布，这太棒了。
I'm so happy we made time for this.
我很高兴我们为此腾出了时间。
Thank you so much for coming on.
非常感谢您的光临。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you if they want to reach out, maybe read about stuff you're doing?
如果人们想要联系你，或者阅读你正在做的事情，他们可以在哪里找到你？
Where's your Substack and anything else people can check out?
您的子堆栈以及人们可以查看的其他内容在哪里？
Deb Liu: Yeah, so debliu.substack if you want to look.
Deb Liu：是的，如果你想看的话，那么 debliu.substack 。
I post probably about once a week.
我大概每周发一次帖子。
I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Threads, so please do find me.
我在 LinkedIn、Threads 上，所以请找到我。
Lenny Rachitsky: And then the actual final question, how can listeners be useful to you?
Lenny Rachitsky：最后一个问题是，听众如何对你有用？
Deb Liu: Well, I would just love to hear what you heard from today that resonated with you and what you're going to do with it.
Deb Liu：嗯，我很想听听你今天听到的与你产生共鸣的内容以及你将如何处理它。
Lenny Rachitsky: And how would they share that LinkedIn or at Threads?
Lenny Rachitsky：他们会如何在 LinkedIn 或 Threads 上分享？
Deb Liu: I'm happy to read your comments or send it if you want to-
Deb Liu：我很高兴阅读您的评论，如果您愿意的话也可以发送-
Deb Liu: ...
刘黛玉：……
send it to me.
发给我。
If you've actually subscribed to my Substack, you can just reply to the first email and then I get it.
如果您确实订阅了我的 Substack，您只需回复第一封电子邮件，然后我就会收到它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
But the easy way, as you said, are replying to YouTube comments.
但正如您所说，最简单的方法是回复 YouTube 评论。
There we go.
我们开始吧。
Get people to YouTube, click that subscribe button.
让人们访问 YouTube，点击订阅按钮。
Deb, thank you so much for being here and thank you.
黛布，非常感谢你来到这里，谢谢你。
Deb Liu: Thank you so much, Lenny.
Deb Liu：非常感谢你，莱尼。
It's great.
这很棒。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。