Building a culture of excellence | David Singleton (CTO of Stripe)

David Placek: Your brand name, nothing's going to be used more often or for longer than that name.

David Placek：你的品牌名称，没有什么比这个名称使用得更频繁或使用时间更长的了。

Design will change, messaging will change, products will change, but that name is there.

设计会改变，消息传递会改变，产品会改变，但那个名字就在那里。

Lenny Rachitsky: What's a name that you came up with that you had to fight super hard for, that the client just hated?

Lenny Rachitsky：哪个名字是你想出来的，你必须非常努力才想出来的，但客户却讨厌这个名字？

David Placek: When we presented Sonos, it was rejected because it's not entertainment-like.

David Placek：当我们推出 Sonos 时，它被拒绝了，因为它不具有娱乐性。

We argued about that because I said, "This is outside looking in, but I don't see you as an entertainment company." Humans do like to be comfortable.

我们为此争论过，因为我说：“这是从外面看的，但我不认为你们是一家娱乐公司。”人类确实喜欢舒服。

Part of our job here is to help people to give the confidence going bigger and being uncomfortable.

我们的部分工作就是帮助人们在感到不舒服的情况下增强信心。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a quote that I found of yours, "If your team is comfortable with the name, chances are you don't have the name yet."

Lenny Rachitsky：我发现了你的一句话，“如果你的团队对这个名字感到满意，那么很可能你还没有这个名字。”

David Placek: We look for polarization.

David Placek：我们寻找两极分化。

We look for tension in a team arguing about these things.

我们在团队中寻找争论这些事情的紧张气氛。

Polarization is a sign of strength in the word.

两极分化是这个世界力量的标志。

Most clients, they come to a naming project absolutely believing with full confidence that they're going to know it when they see it, and the truth is it almost never happens.

大多数客户在参与命名项目时都绝对充满信心地相信，当他们看到它时，他们就会知道它，而事实是，这种情况几乎从未发生过。

Lenny Rachitsky: Most people listening to this are founders, a lot of PMs on product teams.

Lenny Rachitsky：大多数听这个的人都是创始人，很多产品团队的产品经理。

Let's say they have a couple of weeks, got to come up with a name.

假设他们有几周的时间来想出一个名字。

What should they do?

他们应该做什么？

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is David Placek.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 David Placek。

David is the founder of Lexicon Branding, which pioneered the field of brand naming, and invented a few names that you may have heard of including Powerbook, Pentium, Blackberry, Swiffer, the Impossible Burger.

David 是 Lexicon Branding 的创始人，该公司开创了品牌命名领域，并发明了一些您​​可能听说过的名称，包括 Powerbook、Pentium、Blackberry、Swiffer、the Impossible Burger。

Also, Vercel, Windsurf, CapCut, and Azure.

此外，还有 Vercel、Windsurf、CapCut 和 Azure。

In our conversation, David opens up about the very specific process that he and his team go through to find winning names, including a simple exercise that you can do with you and your team to help you find the right name in just a few weeks.

在我们的谈话中，大卫讲述了他和他的团队为寻找获胜名字而经历的非常具体的过程，包括一个简单的练习，您可以与您和您的团队一起做，以帮助您在短短几周内找到正确的名字。

We also talk about why a great name is worth spending your time on, why you won't know a great name when you see it, and why you need to feel uncomfortable about the name first.

我们还讨论了为什么一个伟大的名字值得花时间，为什么当你看到一个伟大的名字时你不会知道它，以及为什么你需要首先对这个名字感到不舒服。

Also, why big team brainstorms don't ever lead to great names.

另外，为什么大团队的头脑风暴永远不会产生伟大的名字。

The stories behind names like Pentium, and Sonos, and Vercel, and Windsurf.

Pentium、Sonos、Vercel 和 Windsurf 等名字背后的故事。

Also, such interesting insights about the feeling and energy of every letter of the alphabet and so much more.

此外，还有关于字母表中每个字母的感觉和能量的有趣见解等等。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is designed for anyone trying to figure out a name for their product or company, and also just for anyone that's interested in hearing the stories of how some of the most iconic names came to be.

Lenny Rachitsky：这一集是为任何想为自己的产品或公司命名的人而设计的，也只是为那些有兴趣听听一些最具标志性的名字的故事的人而设计的。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

And if you become a paid subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of amazing products including Bolt, Linear, Superhuman, Notion, Perplexity, Granola and more.

如果您成为我的时事通讯的付费订阅者，您将获得一年免费的一堆令人惊叹的产品，包括 Bolt、Linear、Super human、Notion、Perplexity、Granola 等。

Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click bundle.

请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。

With that, I bring you David Placek.

接下来，我为您带来大卫·普拉塞克 (David Placek)。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by WorkOS.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 WorkOS 为您带来。

If you're building a SaaS app, at some point, your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication and skim provisioning.

如果您正在构建 SaaS 应用程序，那么您的客户在某些时候会开始要求提供 SAML 身份验证和 Skim 配置等企业功能。

That's where WorkOS comes in, making it fast and painless to add enterprise features to your app.

这就是 WorkOS 的用武之地，它可以快速、轻松地将企业功能添加到您的应用程序中。

Their APIs are easy to understand so that you can ship quickly and get back to building other features.

他们的 API 易于理解，因此您可以快速交付并继续构建其他功能。

Today, hundreds of companies are already powered by WorkOS, including ones you probably know like Vercel, Webflow, and Loom.

如今，数百家公司已经由 WorkOS 提供支持，其中包括您可能知道的 Vercel、Webflow 和 Loom 等公司。

WorkOS also recently acquired Warrant, the fine-grain authorization service.

WorkOS 最近还收购了细粒度授权服务 Warrant。

Warrant's product is based on a groundbreaking authorization system called Zanzibar, which was originally designed for Google to power Google Docs and YouTube.

Warrant 的产品基于名为 Zanzibar 的突破性授权系统，该系统最初是为 Google 设计的，旨在为 Google Docs 和 YouTube 提供支持。

This enables fast authorization checks at enormous scale while maintaining a flexible model that can be adapted to even the most complex use cases.

这可以实现大规模的快速授权检查，同时保持灵活的模型，甚至可以适应最复杂的用例。

If you're currently looking to build role-based access control or other enterprise features like single sign-on, skim, or user management, you should consider WorkOS.

如果您当前正在寻求构建基于角色的访问控制或其他企业功能（例如单点登录、浏览或用户管理），您应该考虑 WorkOS。

It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0 and supports up to 1 million monthly active users for free.

它是 Auth0 的直接替代品，免费支持多达 100 万月活跃用户。

Check it out at workos.com to learn more.

请访问 workos.com 以了解更多信息。

That's workos.com.

那是workos.com。

Lenny Rachitsky: Last year, 1.3% of the global GDP flowed through Stripe.

Lenny Rachitsky：去年，全球 GDP 的 1.3% 流经了 Stripe。

That's over $1.4 trillion.

这超过 1.4 万亿美元。

And driving that huge number are the millions of businesses growing more rapidly with Stripe.

推动这一巨大数字的是数以百万计的企业借助 Stripe 实现了更快的增长。

For industry leaders like Forbes, Atlassian, OpenAI, and Toyota, Stripe isn't just financial software.

对于福布斯、Atlassian、OpenAI 和丰田等行业领导者来说，Stripe 不仅仅是财务软件。

It's a powerful partner that simplifies how they move money, making it as seamless and borderless as the internet itself.

它是一个强大的合作伙伴，可以简化他们的资金转移方式，使其像互联网本身一样无缝和无国界。

For example, Hertz boosted its online payment authorization rates by 4% after migrating to Stripe.

例如，Hertz 在迁移到 Stripe 后将其在线支付授权率提高了 4%。

And imagine seeing a 23% lift in revenue like Forbes did just six months after switching to Stripe for subscription management.

想象一下，在改用 Stripe 进行订阅管理后仅仅六个月，收入就像《福布斯》那样增长了 23%。

Stripe has been leveraging AI for the last decade to make its product better at growing revenue for all businesses, from smarter checkouts to fraud prevention and beyond.

过去十年来，Stripe 一直在利用人工智能，使其产品能够更好地为所有企业增加收入，从更智能的结账到预防欺诈等。

Join the ranks of over half of the Fortune 100 companies that trust Stripe to drive change.

加入超过一半的财富 100 强公司的行列，相信 Stripe 能够推动变革。

Learn more at stripe.com.

请访问 stripe.com 了解更多信息。

Lenny Rachitsky: David, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：大卫，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

David Placek: Thank you.

大卫·普拉塞克：谢谢。

I'm excited about today and looking forward to the conversation.

我对今天感到很兴奋并期待着这次谈话。

Lenny Rachitsky: Me, too.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我也是。

These are actually my favorite kinds of conversations because this topic is so outside of my wheelhouse, and I know I'm just going to learn a ton.

这些实际上是我最喜欢的对话类型，因为这个话题超出了我的掌控范围，而且我知道我会学到很多东西。

Also, this is just something that every founder and product builder has to think about at some point, and they have no idea what they're doing.

而且，这只是每个创始人和产品构建者在某个时候都必须考虑的事情，但他们不知道自己在做什么。

And then, their name becomes so core to their identity.

然后，他们的名字就成为他们身份的核心。

It's hardly the word they say more than any other word.

这几乎不是他们说得最多的词。

And I feel like I've never heard advice on how to do this well.

我觉得我从来没有听过关于如何做好这件事的建议。

So, I'm really excited for this conversation.

所以，我对这次谈话感到非常兴奋。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm going to just dive into a question.

Lenny Rachitsky：我要深入探讨一个问题。

And the question is just what's a name that you came up with, and your team came up with, that you had to fight super hard for that the client just hated, and you ended up winning.

问题是你想出的名字是什么，你的团队想出的名字是什么，你必须为客户所讨厌的而努力奋斗，然后你最终获胜。

And now, it's just such an obviously awesome name that everyone loves.

现在，这个名字显然很棒，每个人都喜欢。

David Placek: The story I like to tell is a story of Sonos.

David Placek：我喜欢讲的故事是 Sonos 的故事。

One, a great client team.

第一，优秀的客户团队。

I worked with all the founders.

我和所有的创始人一起工作过。

But at the time, they were stuck on being in a brand name that put them in the entertainment business.

但当时，他们坚持使用一个让他们进入娱乐业的品牌。

And so when we presented Sonos, which has many qualities to it, it was rejected because it doesn't have enough emotion to it.

因此，当我们推出具有很多品质的 Sonos 时，它被拒绝了，因为它没有足够的情感。

It's not entertainment-like.

这不是娱乐类的。

And we argued about that because I said, "This is outside looking in, but I don't see you as an entertainment company.

我们为此争论过，因为我说：“这是从外面看的，但我不认为你们是一家娱乐公司。

You make speakers that allow for the flow of entertainment through these things.

你制造的扬声器可以让娱乐通过这些东西流动。

And Sonos is about sound." But it had a particular quality.

Sonos 是关于声音的。”但它有一种特殊的品质。

It's called a palindrome, which really means that you can flip it and it means the same thing.

它被称为回文，这实际上意味着你可以翻转它，并且它的意思是一样的。

In the case of Sonos, you could also turn it upside down and it was essentially the same.

就Sonos而言，你也可以把它颠倒过来，本质上是一样的。

David Placek: And so that got them thinking about this, but they were still has...

大卫·普拉塞克：这让他们开始思考这个问题，但他们仍然......

So I left that meeting in Santa Barbara, and I came back and they were still struggling with it.

所以我离开了在圣巴巴拉的会议，当我回来时，他们仍在为此苦苦挣扎。

And I got on a plane, didn't even bill them for this, went back down to Santa Barbara and met with them again and said, "I really believe in this name and I think it's the right for you." And at a certain point, one of the founders, Bob MacFarlane, who's just a wonderful client.

我登上了飞机，甚至没有为此向他们收费，回到圣巴巴拉并再次与他们会面，并说：“我真的相信这个名字，我认为它适合你。”在某个时刻，创始人之一鲍勃·麦克法兰（Bob MacFarlane）是一位出色的客户。

I could see him thinking, and he said, "You know?

我看得出来他在思考，他说：“你知道吗？

We're trying to name this for ourselves, and what we really should be doing is naming it for the marketplace and the customers.

我们试图为自己命名，而我们真正应该做的是为市场和客户命名。

And I think Sonos now is the right name.

我认为 Sonos 现在是正确的名字。

And I felt really good about that." He later wrote me a note about how I help to do that, and we use it sometimes in credentials presentations because it's such a nice note.

我对此感觉非常好。”后来他给我写了一张便条，介绍我如何帮助做到这一点，我们有时会在证书演示中使用它，因为这是一张很好的便条。

David Placek: But Sonos is something I'm so glad that I had this internal energy to, "I got to go down there and make a bid for this." I don't do that often, by the way, but I felt very strongly about Sonos.

David Placek：但 Sonos 是我很高兴的东西，因为我有这种内在的能量，“我必须去那里竞标。”顺便说一句，我不经常这样做，但我对 Sonos 的感觉非常强烈。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love Sonos.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢 Sonos。

I love the name.

我喜欢这个名字。

I have many Sonos products.

我有很多 Sonos 产品。

How often does this happen where the client is just, "No, this is not the name.

这种情况多久发生一次，客户只是说：“不，这不是名字。

We have this bigger vision, we have a whole other idea of it." And then you convince them.

我们有一个更大的愿景，我们对此有完全不同的想法。”然后你说服他们。

David Placek: Well, it happens all of the time.

大卫·普拉塞克：嗯，这种事经常发生。

And it's a little bit bidirectional, right?

而且它有点双向，对吧？

Most clients, and I can understand this, they come to a naming project absolutely believing, with full confidence, that they're going to know it when they see it.

大多数客户，我可以理解这一点，他们来到命名项目时绝对相信，充满信心，当他们看到它时就会知道它。

And the truth is, it almost never happens.

事实是，这种情况几乎从未发生过。

I think this year we'll hit 4,000 projects that we've completed.

我认为今年我们将完成 4,000 个项目。

David Placek: And it's interesting, we'll tell people in a very polite way, "You're not going to know when you see it." But I know they don't believe me.

大卫·普拉克（David Placek）：这很有趣，我们会以非常礼貌的方式告诉人们，“当你看到它时你不会知道。”但我知道他们不相信我。

And even when...

甚至当...

You could see them thinking that, "You know what?

你可以看到他们在想：“你知道吗？

He was right.

他是对的。

I really have to think about this.

我真的必须考虑一下这个问题。

I have to process it." And part of that, part of why clients don't like the bolder names, the more imaginative names that we present is they are looking for comfort.

我必须处理它。”客户不喜欢我们提供的更大胆、更有想象力的名字的部分原因是他们寻求舒适感。

And that's the opposite that what you want to do.

这与你想做的相反。

And part of our job here is to help people to give the confidence that going bolder, and bigger, and being uncomfortable.

我们的部分工作就是帮助人们树立信心，让他们变得更大胆、更大、更勇敢。

I use the expression, "There is no power in comfort, not in the marketplace."

我用这样的说法：“舒适是没有力量的，市场是没有力量的。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

There's so much here already.

这里已经有这么多了。

So this idea of you're not going to know it when you see it is something that people come in with thinking like, "Once I see it, it'll be obvious." Just why is that almost never the case?

因此，当你看到它时，你不会知道它的想法是人们进来的想法，“一旦我看到它，它就会很明显。”为什么几乎从来没有这样的情况呢？

Is it because the name has to be something that is uncomfortable?

是因为这个名字必须让人不舒服吗？

David Placek: There's a lot of psychology to this, which ironically, I never even took a psychology class in college or graduate school.

David Placek：这涉及到很多心理学知识，讽刺的是，我什至从未在大学或研究生院上过心理学课。

But the first element is humans do like to be comfortable.

但第一个因素是人类确实喜欢舒适。

And one of the mechanisms of comfort is if something's been successful before, then I feel like I can approve it or select it.

安慰的机制之一是，如果某件事以前成功过，那么我觉得我可以批准它或选择它。

This is why movies like Harry Potter or even novels like Jack London's Call of the Wild get rejected so many times.

这就是为什么像《哈利·波特》这样的电影，甚至像杰克·伦敦的《野性的呼唤》这样的小说多次被拒绝的原因。

I think Harry Potter was rejected 16 or 18 times, and Jack London's book even more than that.

我认为《哈利·波特》被拒绝了 16 或 18 次，而杰克·伦敦的书甚至更多。

I mean, think about it.

我的意思是，想一想。

He's pitching a book and they say, "What are you talking about here?

他正在推销一本书，他们说：“你在这里谈论什么？

You're saying a dog becomes a wolf?

你是说狗变成狼？

I've never heard of anything like that." So, we really do have to help people think about, "It's not about the past.

我从来没有听说过这样的事情。”所以，我们确实必须帮助人们思考，“这与过去无关。

You're actually creating the future." And we really talk to people and emphasize the idea, "This isn't a name you're creating.

你实际上正在创造未来。”我们确实与人们交谈并强调这个想法：“这不是你创造的名字。

We're creating an experience for you.

我们正在为您创造一种体验。

We're going to work together."

我们将共同努力。”

David Placek: And our conversations always start with, "Talk to us about how you behave now and how you want to behave in the future," as opposed to, "Tell me about your positioning, tell me about your values, tell me about your mission." That's really kind of old thinking.

大卫·普拉塞克：我们的对话总是从“告诉我们你现在的行为方式以及你未来想要的行为方式”开始，而不是“告诉我你的定位，告诉我你的价值观，告诉我你的使命。”这确实是一种古老的想法。

It's very traditional, and that did work 25 or 30 years ago.

这是非常传统的做法，而且在 25 或 30 年前确实有效。

But this is a far more complex, interconnected world, a digital world now that stuff just doesn't create...

但这是一个更加复杂、相互关联的世界，一个数字世界，现在的东西不会创造……

It doesn't create names like Sonos or some of our other credentials that we probably will talk about today.

它不会创建像 Sonos 这样的名称或我们今天可能会讨论的其他一些凭证。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, we're going to talk about just the process you guys go through, so stay tuned for that.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，我们将讨论你们所经历的过程，所以请继续关注。

But before we get to that, is there's another story you can share that shows this idea of being bold?

但在我们开始之前，您是否可以分享另一个故事来展示这种大胆的想法？

David Placek: I'll talk about Microsoft's Azure.

David Placek：我会谈谈微软的Azure。

So when Microsoft came to us, they were pretty much stuck.

因此，当微软找到我们时，他们几乎陷入了困境。

And Microsoft does...

而微软确实...

And in many ways, to their credit, a lot of things don't need to be named.

值得赞扬的是，在很多方面，很多事情不需要命名。

They don't need trademarks.

他们不需要商标。

They don't need brand names.

他们不需要品牌。

They need descriptors.

他们需要描述符。

And so they came to us to develop a name that started or ended with cloud.

因此，他们来找我们开发一个以云开头或结尾的名字。

Made sense to them because it was a cloud service.

对他们来说很有意义，因为这是一项云服务。

And our reaction was, "If you do that, you're going to be in an ocean of other cloud this, cloud that.

我们的反应是，“如果你这样做，你就会陷入一片云海之中。”

And you have an opportunity as Microsoft here to really emerge as a leader in this." And so, there was a discussion about, "Okay, we'll take a look at those, but we'd like to see some cloud names." Which is easy to do, by the way.

作为微软，你有机会真正成为这方面的领导者。”因此，进行了讨论，“好吧，我们会看看这些，但我们希望看到一些云名称。”顺便说一句，这很容易做到。

David Placek: So, we did that.

大卫·普拉塞克：所以，我们就这么做了。

And along the way, we came up with this word azure, which is another word for blue.

一路上，我们想出了“azure”这个词，它是蓝色的另一个词。

And so there was a link to clouds, blue sky clouds, things like that, but we really presented it based on its linguistic qualities.

因此，存在与云、蓝天云等类似事物的链接，但我们实际上是根据其语言品质来呈现它的。

It's a noisy word, that Z in there.

这是一个吵闹的词，Z在那里。

It starts with an A, and it ends in a nice smooth flow.

它以 A 开头，以流畅的流程结束。

So, we really strive to do create names that are balanced.

因此，我们确实努力创建平衡的名称。

And in a very busy competitive world, having a strong signal, which is generated by noise is a good thing.

在一个非常繁忙的竞争世界中，拥有由噪音产生的强信号是一件好事。

David Placek: The reaction wasn't good.

David Placek：反应并不好。

One of the clients said, "That's just a dumb idea." Remarks like that.

一位客户说：“这只是一个愚蠢的想法。”诸如此类的言论。

At this point, after these four decades, it just rolls off my back like water off a duck is what my grandmother would say.

此刻，四十年后，我的祖母会说，它就像水从鸭子上滚下来一样从我的背上滚下来。

But I think along the way, as we talked about it, they began to warm up to this.

但我认为，一路走来，当我们谈论这个问题时，他们开始对此感到热情。

And now of course it's, I don't know, a $100 billion brand or something like that.

当然，我不知道现在它是一个价值 1000 亿美元的品牌还是类似的东西。

But that's an example of, "I haven't seen that before.

但这是一个例子，“我以前没见过。

I'm very comfortable with cloud.

我对云非常满意。

Cloud is what it is.

云就是这样。

We're describing it." But that's a statement.

我们正在描述它。”但这是一个声明。

And I think that...

我认为...

Well, I don't think I know that's what I said in one of the presentations is, "You don't want to make a statement here.

嗯，我想我不知道我在一次演讲中所说的是：“你不想在这里发表声明。

You want to start a story." And Azure is going to behave differently in the marketplace than Cloud Pro, which is I think one of the names that we presented to them on the other site at their request.

你想开始一个故事。” Azure 在市场上的表现将与 Cloud Pro 不同，我认为这是我们应他们的要求在另一个网站上向他们提供的名称之一。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm glad they went with Azure.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴他们选择了 Azure。

Let me actually ask this question.

让我实际问一下这个问题。

I know you're biased, but just how important is a great name?

我知道你有偏见，但是一个好名字到底有多重要？

If you had a better name than a product that was better than you, does that make a big difference?

如果你有一个比你更好的产品更好的名字，那会有很大的不同吗？

Just anything you can share there to help people see this is the power of a great name.

只要你能在那里分享的任何东西都能帮助人们认识到这就是一个伟大名字的力量。

David Placek: Let's look just at the reality of this.

David Placek：让我们看看现实情况。

Your brand name, whether it's a product name or a company name, nothing's going to be used more often or for longer than that name.

您的品牌名称，无论是产品名称还是公司名称，都不会比该名称使用得更频繁或更长时间。

Design will change, messaging will change, products will change, but that name is there.

设计会改变，消息传递会改变，产品会改变，但那个名字就在那里。

So, I like to talk about this idea of cumulative advantage.

所以，我喜欢谈论累积优势这个想法。

Over time, as people buy more and more of the product, they see it more often, that their bond between you and that brand, or them and the brand I should say, becomes stronger and stronger.

随着时间的推移，随着人们购买越来越多的产品，他们会越来越频繁地看到，你和该品牌之间的联系，或者我应该说他们和品牌之间的联系变得越来越牢固。

So you want that name to stick in their mind to be distinctive, because distinctiveness is what creates that cumulative advantage.

因此，您希望这个名字牢牢地留在他们的脑海中，以使其与众不同，因为独特性可以创造累积优势。

David Placek: The second thing is this notion of what I call asymmetric advantage.

David Placek：第二件事是我所说的不对称优势的概念。

It makes perfect sense, and most clients agree with this when we say this is that even before you launch this brand, why not start with an advantage in the marketplace?

这是完全有道理的，当我们说即使在推出这个品牌之前，为什么不从市场优势开始呢？大多数客户都同意这一点？

And you won't get an advantage if you're descriptive.

如果你是描述性的，你不会获得优势。

If you are Cloud Pro and there's 10 other cloud services, you're not going to stand out in the marketplace.

如果您是 Cloud Pro，并且还有其他 10 种云服务，您将不会在市场上脱颖而出。

You won't have the ability to create necessarily that cumulative advantage in the marketplace.

您将没有能力在市场上创造必要的累积优势。

David Placek: So, those are my two reasons why names are, I think, done right.

大卫·普拉塞克：所以，我认为这就是我认为名字做得正确的两个原因。

And we do talk about our mission is not creating good names.

我们确实谈到我们的使命不是创造好名声。

A lot of people can do that.

很多人都可以做到这一点。

Our mission is to create the right name for clients, because the right name does deliver asymmetric advantage and cumulative advantage for you.

我们的使命是为客户创建正确的名称，因为正确的名称确实可以为您带来不对称优势和累积优势。

And that, for us, has almost unlimited value.

这对我们来说几乎具有无限的价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is a great answer.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的答案。

Essentially what you're saying is it's not going to necessarily make or break you, but it gives you an advantage.

本质上，你所说的是，它不一定会成就你或毁掉你，但它会给你带来优势。

A great name gives you an advantage, especially if you're just getting started.

一个好名字会给你带来优势，尤其是当你刚刚起步时。

You need every advantage you can get.

你需要你能获得的一切优势。

David Placek: Exactly.

大卫·普拉塞克：没错。

And this is maybe a little bit off a tangent, but one of the best books on marketing I've ever read, which is not a book on marketing, and you may have read it along the way in college if you studied any Greek or classics.

这可能有点离题，但这是我读过的关于营销的最好的书之一，这不是一本关于营销的书，如果你学过希腊语或古典文学，你可能在大学里读过它。

It's called the Melian Dialogues.

这就是所谓的美丽安对话。

And it's a dialogue...

而且这是一段对话...

It'll take anybody listening to this maybe 25 minutes to read it.

任何听此内容的人都可能需要 25 分钟才能读完。

Between the Athenians and the government of Melos, the Athenians had decided that they needed that island.

在雅典人和米洛斯政府之间，雅典人决定他们需要那个岛。

And they went and approached them very nice way, that, "We want to take over the island.

他们以非常好的方式接近他们，“我们想占领这座岛。

Nothing will change.

一切都不会改变。

You'll be taxed a little bit, but we'll protect you." And the Athenians had thought every aspect about how to take that island before.

你会被征收一点税，但我们会保护你。”雅典人之前已经考虑过如何占领该岛的各个方面。

So by the time they got there, they had created asymmetric advantage in terms of ships, and men, and all of this other stuff.

因此，当他们到达那里时，他们已经在船只、人员以及所有其他方面创造了不对称优势。

David Placek: By the way, in the book, there's no mention of marketing or brand strategy or any of these things, but if you read it, you begin to see that it's marketing, really, is about a symmetric advantage.

大卫·普拉塞克：顺便说一句，在书中，没有提到营销或品牌策略或任何这些东西，但如果你读了它，你就会开始发现营销实际上是关于对称优势的。

And so, why not start from the very beginning with an advantage?

那么，为什么不从一开始就拥有优势呢？

That's the value of a name.

这就是名字的价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's dive into the actual process you guys go through, and I want to read a quote that Guillermo Rauch shared when I asked him about what it was like working with you.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们深入了解一下你们所经历的实际过程，当我问 Guillermo Rauch 与你们一起工作的感觉时，我想读一下他分享的一句话。

He's the CEO and co-founder of Vercel, which you guys worked with.

他是 Vercel 的首席执行官兼联合创始人，你们曾与该公司合作过。

I definitely want to hear that story, by the way.

顺便说一句，我绝对想听听这个故事。

So he said, "Before David, the ability to name something was like charisma.

所以他说：“在大卫之前，说出某件事的名字的能力就像魅力一样。

You either have it or you don't.

你要么拥有它，要么没有。

It was so surreal to watch his team distill it down to a science."

看着他的团队将其提炼成一门科学真是太超现实了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: So let me just ask you, what does that science look like?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以让我问你，科学是什么样的？

What are the steps to coming up with an amazing name for your product or company that you guys go through?

你们为自己的产品或公司想出一个令人惊叹的名字时经历了哪些步骤？

David Placek: That's very nice of Guillermo.

David Placek：Guillermo 非常好。

He is a very impressive innovator in this category and we greatly enjoyed working with him.

他是这一领域一位令人印象深刻的创新者，我们非常喜欢与他合作。

Well, our process is real.

嗯，我们的过程是真实的。

I break it down in three steps.

我将其分为三步。

First, we have to identify, then we invent, and then we implement.

首先，我们必须识别，然后我们发明，然后我们实施。

It's just three things.

这只是三件事。

It's not rocket science, but it's a combination of creativity and discipline.

这不是火箭科学，而是创造力和纪律的结合。

And obviously, talented people and experience in these things.

显然，在这些事情上有才华和经验的人。

So, let's just go through those things.

那么，让我们来回顾一下这些事情。

In the first section of identify, it's really trying to find out from the client, let's talk about behavior.

在识别的第一部分，它确实试图从客户那里找出答案，让我们谈谈行为。

So, how are you behaving now and how do you want to behave in the future?

那么，您现在的表现如何以及您将来希望如何​​表现？

That behavior is bidirectional.

这种行为是双向的。

In other words, the marketplace behaves towards a Vercel, that's the name we created for Guillermo.

换句话说，市场的行为面向 Vercel，这是我们为 Guillermo 创建的名字。

And they behave towards the marketplace.

他们的行为也面向市场。

And that's an important point because everything...

这是很重要的一点，因为一切......

Buildings are bidirectional.

建筑物是双向的。

Look at a building, you behave differently towards a temple than you or a church versus a Holiday Inn in terms of how that architecture states.

看看一栋建筑，你对寺庙的行为与你对教堂的行为不同，对教堂对假日酒店的行为也不同，就建筑的表述方式而言。

So, we focus on that.

所以，我们关注这一点。

Behavior is closely aligned for us with experience.

我们的行为与经验密切相关。

How do you want the experience of this brand?

您想要这个品牌的体验如何？

David Placek: Now, when we listen to those things, we begin to think about rhythm of the name.

大卫·普拉塞克：现在，当我们听这些东西时，我们开始思考这个名字的节奏。

So something like Dasani has a lot of rhythm to it, right?

所以像 Dasani 这样的东西有很多节奏，对吧？

It's kind of calming.

这有点让人平静。

And so, we'll begin to extract things from that discussion on experience.

因此，我们将开始从有关经验的讨论中提取内容。

We will then, also, as part of this first phase, look at the competition.

然后，作为第一阶段的一部分，我们还将关注竞争情况。

We call that developing a landscape.

我们称之为开发景观。

And we're looking for what are the words...

我们正在寻找这些词是什么...

What are the brand names, first, and then what language are they using in this space?

首先，品牌名称是什么，然后他们在这个领域使用什么语言？

Because we have to be distinctive.

因为我们必须与众不同。

If a brand name isn't distinctive, you lose.

如果品牌名称不独特，你就输了。

Then, you're imitating.

那你就模仿吧。

And that's a form of suicide.

这是自杀的一种形式。

That's a famous quote from some...

这是一些人的名言...

I think the president of P&G 50 years ago or something like that.

我想是 50 年前的宝洁公司总裁或者类似的人。

So, that's that first phase which allows us to create what we call a creative framework.

所以，这就是第一阶段，我们可以创建所谓的创意框架。

And we don't even use the word objectives here because that gets too logical.

我们在这里甚至不使用“目标”这个词，因为这太合乎逻辑了。

David Placek: Actually, framework for us is a metaphor for a window for us, and our teams, and our linguists to travel through.

David Placek：实际上，框架对我们来说是一个隐喻，是我们、我们的团队和我们的语言学家可以穿越的窗口。

To open things up so that we're not coming back with a narrow list of names.

开放一切，这样我们就不会带着一个狭窄的名单回来。

We're coming back with names that have depth, and breadth, and have different experiences and personalities to them.

我们带着有深度、有广度、有不同经历和个性的名字回来。

And clients will sign off on that.

客户将签字同意。

And then, we get going.

然后，我们就开始吧。

So now, we're moved to the invent stage.

现在，我们进入了发明阶段。

David Placek: And in the invent stage, we do really two things.

David Placek：在发明阶段，我们实际上做了两件事。

You can look at this as two layers of our process.

您可以将其视为我们流程的两层。

I think the second layer is probably what makes us quite unique in the marketplace.

我认为第二层可能是我们在市场上独一无二的原因。

It's the result of millions of dollars of R&D on our part.

这是我们数百万美元研发的成果。

So the first thing is, no surprise to anyone, we work with creative individuals.

因此，第一件事是，我们与富有创造力的人合作，这对任何人来说都不足为奇。

And we don't use...

而且我们不使用...

This will be contrary.

这会适得其反。

We don't use large brainstorming sections.

我们不使用大型头脑风暴部分。

I did.

我做到了。

When I first started the company, I used freelancers, I used large brainstorming groups.

当我刚创办公司时，我使用自由职业者，我使用大型头脑风暴小组。

And along the way through some analysis, we really discovered that that was not really working for us.

通过一些分析，我们确实发现这对我们来说并不真正有效。

That actually, the names were coming from employees and from small groups.

事实上，这些名字来自员工和小团体。

And so we've moved our process to, at least, two or three small teams of two people.

因此，我们已将流程转移到至少两三个两人组成的小团队中。

David Placek: And each of those teams...

大卫·普拉塞克：每个团队......

So let's say on significant projects, we always use three teams.

因此，假设在重大项目上，我们总是使用三个团队。

And each team gets a different briefing.

每个团队都会收到不同的简报。

One team knows everything about the project but the other teams don't.

一个团队了解该项目的一切，但其他团队则不知道。

If we're working for Microsoft, the second team thinks they're working for Apple.

如果我们为微软工作，第二个团队就会认为他们为苹果工作。

I mean, they know it's disguised.

我的意思是，他们知道这是伪装的。

We're not keeping this from anyone.

我们不会向任何人隐瞒此事。

And then the third team, we take it out of computers, and they might be naming a bicycle or a car or something like that.

然后第三组，我们从计算机中取出它，他们可能会命名自行车或汽车或类似的东西。

What we're trying to do is open up the coffers of creativity for this.

我们正在努力做的是为此打开创造力的库房。

And so when people are working on what they know is not the real assignment, they are now free to make all kinds of mistakes.

因此，当人们从事他们知道不是真正任务的工作时，他们现在很容易犯各种错误。

And so, most of our names have come out of the second or third team because they're-

所以，我们的大多数名字都来自第二队或第三队，因为他们是——

David Placek: Yeah.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的。

I think the process, at some point, I will hopefully write either a good article on this or maybe even a book.

我认为在这个过程中，在某个时候，我希望能就此写一篇好文章，甚至是一本书。

But this process would work for, I think, a lot of things.

但我认为这个过程对很多事情都有效。

I know it would.

我知道会的。

All right now, what's that second layer that I talked about?

好吧，我刚才谈到的第二层是什么？

Well, we have made significant investments in this area of linguistics and cognitive science, and it's in two ways.

嗯，我们在语言学和认知科学领域进行了大量投资，而且是通过两种方式进行的。

One, building proprietary knowledge.

第一，建立专有知识。

So we know through research that we funded, an extensive amount about an area in language called or linguistics called the sound symbolism.

因此，通过我们资助的研究，我们知道有关语言或语言学领域的大量信息，称为声音象征主义。

So, what are the sounds of the 26 letters of the alphabet and what do they do?

那么，26个字母的发音是什么，它们有什么作用呢？

How do they evoke things?

他们如何唤起事物？

Well, it turns out that each of those letters sends out a signal that creates a certain sort of vibration, if you will, or experience.

好吧，事实证明，这些字母中的每一个都会发出一个信号，如果您愿意或经历的话，会产生某种振动。

David Placek: Now, there's been research on that over the years but there were some gaps, and we decided to fill this.

David Placek：现在，多年来一直有这方面的研究，但存在一些空白，我们决定填补这一空白。

And over the years, we've had a very good relationship with Stanford University, with their Department of Linguistics.

多年来，我们与斯坦福大学及其语言学系保持着非常良好的关系。

We've hired linguists from MIT, from Berkeley.

我们聘请了来自麻省理工学院和伯克利分校的语言学家。

We have a linguistic internship here.

我们在这里有语言实习。

I actually just ran this number, preparing for this discussion.

实际上我刚刚跑了这个数字，为​​这次讨论做准备。

We have employed, over four decades now, 253 linguists.

四十多年来，我们已经雇用了 253 名语言学家。

Most of them PhDs, some of them contracts, some of them actual employees.

他们大多数是博士，有些是合同工，有些是实际雇员。

That's a lot of intellectual knowledge.

这是很多智力知识。

So we really have, what I call, a linguistic engine here.

所以我们确实拥有我所说的语言引擎。

And then we now have an operating network of...

然后我们现在拥有一个运营网络......

I just checked on this figure yesterday.

我昨天才查到这个数字。

We have 108 linguists in 76 countries that help us.

我们有来自 76 个国家的 108 名语言学家为我们提供帮助。

Some of them do creative work, others will do just the analysis of names for us.

他们中的一些人会做创造性的工作，另一些人只会为我们做名称分析。

So now, we have that creative framework, we have creative teams working on this.

所以现在，我们有了这个创意框架，我们有创意团队致力于此。

David Placek: Now, we're tapping into databases that have over 18,000 small word units, technically called morphemes.

David Placek：现在，我们正在利用拥有超过 18,000 个小单词单元（技术上称为语素）的数据库。

So, we also can tap in from a sound standpoint.

所以，我们也可以从声音的角度来探讨。

What are the sounds of reliability?

可靠的声音是什么？

What are the sounds of aliveness?

生命的声音有哪些？

And so with Sonos, by the way, we wanted things that are somewhat noisy.

顺便说一句，对于 Sonos，我们想要一些有点吵的东西。

And so S is a noisy letter, like a Z or even a V.

所以 S 是一个嘈杂的字母，就像 Z 甚至 V 一样。

And so, you begin to set priorities about what letters we're going to use.

因此，您开始确定我们将使用哪些字母的优先级。

And that work from that, we call it an engineering layer floats up into the creative teams.

由此产生的工作，我们称之为工程层，并上升到创意团队中。

And so, it's a mixture of things at a certain point in time.

因此，在某个时间点它是各种事物的混合体。

David Placek: All right.

大卫·普拉塞克：好的。

Now, what happens to all that?

现在，这一切会发生什么？

At a certain point, usually 3 to 4 weeks into this, we might have 2 or 3,000 ideas.

在某个时刻，通常是 3 到 4 周，我们可能会有 2 到 3,000 个想法。

I say ideas because they're not all solutions, they're not all workable.

我说想法是因为它们并不都是解决方案，也不都是可行的。

They may be just beginning ideas, concepts.

他们可能只是刚刚开始的想法、概念。

And we sift through those.

我们会筛选这些。

And now one of the major challenges that we face, and certainly our clients face, is the need to clear a trademark for it to be not in conflict with a marketplace that is...

现在，我们面临的主要挑战之一，当然也是我们的客户面临的，是需要清除商标，使其不与市场发生冲突……

We're almost reaching a tipping point in terms of difficulty of clearing names here.

就这里洗清罪名而言，我们几乎已经达到了一个临界点。

And so we have paralegals here, and we have a trademark attorney, and we'll analyze those names.

所以我们这里有律师助理，我们有商标律师，我们将分析这些名字。

That gets us to a much smaller set.

这让我们得到了一个小得多的集合。

And then, we'll do our linguistic work with our linguists, and we end up with a set of names to show our clients.

然后，我们将与我们的语言学家一起进行语言工作，最终我们会得到一组名称来向我们的客户展示。

David Placek: We'll do this twice with most assignments.

David Placek：对于大多数作业，我们都会这样做两次。

Sometimes, we'll do just one time depending on timing and budget.

有时，我们会根据时间和预算只进行一次。

But we really try to get two cycles here, partly because humans love to compare.

但我们确实试图在这里得到两个周期，部分原因是人类喜欢比较。

If you're looking for a house, you don't just look at the first house and say, "Okay, let's sign us up." You look and you learn that we don't need a swimming pool, but we do need a view.

如果您正在找房子，您不会只看第一栋房子就说：“好吧，我们来报名吧。”你看了就会知道我们不需要游泳池，但我们确实需要风景。

It's the same with names.

名字也是如此。

And so, we get feedback from our clients.

因此，我们从客户那里得到反馈。

And sometimes, that's a co-creative process where a client will come up with a word or a solution and we'll then run that through our screening mechanisms for them.

有时，这是一个共同创造的过程，客户会提出一个词或一个解决方案，然后我们将通过我们的筛选机制为他们运行。

And that's really the process.

这就是真正的过程。

The final phase is implementing.

最后阶段正在实施。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's actually pause at that because I would, so much, I want to talk about with the second step, but we'll get to the step three.

Lenny Rachitsky：实际上让我们暂停一下，因为我非常想讨论第二步，但我们将讨论第三步。

They're just blowing my mind, all the things you guys do here.

你们在这里做的所有事情都让我大吃一惊。

This is incredible.

这太不可思议了。

There's so many things here that are so unlike what I expected.

这里有很多事情与我的预期完全不同。

Lenny Rachitsky: First of all, the creative folks that are actually coming up with these names, what's the background of these people?

Lenny Rachitsky：首先，那些真正想出这些名字的创意人士，这些人的背景是什么？

Who are these people?

这些人是谁？

David Placek: So, the fundamental quality is they're going to be curious and they're going to be hardworking.

大卫·普拉塞克（David Placek）：所以，基本品质是他们会好奇并且会努力工作。

This is...

这是...

And hopefully...

并希望...

And this is hard to screen for, but lower egos.

这很难筛选，但要降低自我意识。

This is unlike the advertising business which I came from, so I've six years at a large agency.

这与我出身的广告行业不同，所以我在一家大型广告公司工作了六年。

Where a creative person or a copywriter can think about something and come in with 3 or 4 alternatives in terms of a headline or body copy.

创意人员或文案撰稿人可以思考某件事，并在标题或正文方面提出 3 或 4 个替代方案。

And that might be refined a little bit and maybe sent back to the drawing boards altogether, but it's a relatively simple process.

这可能会稍微完善一点，也可能会完全返回绘图板，但这是一个相对简单的过程。

And no disrespect intended there.

那里没有不尊重的意思。

David Placek: Here, I can't just sit down and say, "Okay, we're naming a new car here.

David Placek：在这里，我不能只是坐下来说，“好吧，我们在这里命名一辆新车。

And so, I'm going to generate 100 names and you generate 100 names, and something will fall out." Those names will not...

所以，我要生成 100 个名字，你也生成 100 个名字，然后就会出现一些问题。”这些名字不会...

There's not enough in that list to clear through our screens.

该列表中的内容不足以清除我们的屏幕。

Of legal screens, our linguistic screens.

法律屏幕，我们的语言屏幕。

And remember, we start with a creative framework and a criteria that the names need to meet.

请记住，我们从创意框架和名称需要满足的标准开始。

So, we're looking for people who can churn out a lot of work.

因此，我们正在寻找能够完成大量工作的人。

And when that's rejected, they just keep going.

当被拒绝时，他们就会继续前进。

So, we look for tenacious people.

所以，我们寻找坚韧的人。

Now, we have...

现在，我们有...

And we'll probably get to this later, but we have software here that helps people generate names.

我们可能稍后会讨论这个问题，但我们这里有软件可以帮助人们生成名称。

Not really...

并不是真的...

Maybe five years down the road, it'll actually spit out solutions, but now it's helping us to generate ideas and directions and what I...

也许五年后，它实际上会提出解决方案，但现在它正在帮助我们产生想法和方向，以及我......

Sound symbolism, ideas, word unit, prefixes, suffixes, things like that.

声音象征、思想、单词单位、前缀、后缀，诸如此类。

So, it's relatively easy for anyone that works here to develop a list of 2 or 300 names over a 3 or 4-day period.

因此，对于在这里工作的任何人来说，在 3 或 4 天内列出 2 或 300 个名字的列表相对容易。

David Placek: Where do we find these people?

David Placek：我们在哪里可以找到这些人？

More who are writers from newspaper reporters because they have to work fast.

更多的人是报纸记者的作家，因为他们必须快速工作。

Their stories get rejected.

他们的故事被拒绝了。

People who might have written a novel.

可能写过小说的人。

We have hired people from agencies over the years.

多年来，我们从代理机构聘请了人员。

They work a little less effectively than others who have a speechwriter from...

他们的工作效率比其他拥有来自...的演讲稿撰稿人的人要低一些。

I wrote speeches in Washington.

我在华盛顿写了演讲稿。

Those people have to work hard, crank out a lot of material, get rejected.

这些人必须努力工作，制作出大量材料，然后被拒绝。

Candidate says, "I don't like this, start over." Those are more resilient people.

候选人说：“我不喜欢这样，重新开始吧。”这些都是更有韧性的人。

That's where they come from.

这就是他们来自的地方。

It's not easy to find these people.

找到这些人并不容易。

It really isn't.

事实并非如此。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me just throw out here.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我把这里扔掉。

I'm going to ask you after we go through this process, what people that don't have the resources and time to do this, what they should do to come up with a good name.

在我们完成这个过程之后，我会问你，那些没有资源和时间来做这件事的人，他们应该怎么做才能想出一个好名字。

I'm just going to let people know as they're listening because-

我只是想让人们在听的时候知道，因为——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

I imagine many people are wondering, but let's not go there yet.

我想很多人都想知道，但我们暂时不去那里。

Lenny Rachitsky: How long does this process usually take?

Lenny Rachitsky：这个过程通常需要多长时间？

What's the ideal length the company should expect when they want to come up with an amazing name?

当公司想要想出一个令人惊叹的名字时，他们应该期望的理想长度是多少？

David Placek: For us, the ideal link is pretty short.

David Placek：对我们来说，理想的链接非常短。

It's eight weeks.

已经八个星期了。

For larger corporate projects where you have boards and a little more politicking to do, and a few more presentations, it's a three-month churn.

对于较大的公司项目，你需要董事会和更多的政治活动，以及更多的演示，这是三个月的流失。

And sometimes by the time they approve things and clear, it's a four-months process.

有时，当他们批准并澄清事情时，这个过程需要四个月的时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。

So eight weeks mostly if you're a big company with a lot of red tape.

如果你是一家有很多繁文缛节的大公司，那么大部分时间是八周。

You have to work through then longer.

你必须坚持更长的时间。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, this point you made about three different teams with different almost context is so interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，您对具有不同背景的三个不同团队提出的这一点非常有趣。

So say, let's use Windsurf as an example, which is an amazing name, killing it, that you guys helped come up with.

这么说吧，让我们以 Windsurf 为例，这是一个令人惊叹的名字，非常棒，是你们帮忙想出来的。

So is the idea there, okay, here's we're naming this AI IDE.

想法就是这样，好吧，我们给这个 AI IDE 命名。

One of the team has told, "No, you're building a bicycle.

其中一个团队告诉我们：“不，你正在制造一辆自行车。

Here's all the same brief, but it's a bicycle.

都是一样的简介，但它是一辆自行车。

And then another team, you're building a..." I don't know, lap.

然后另一个团队，你正在建立一个......”我不知道，圈。

I don't know, something non-technical essentially, right?

我不知道，本质上是非技术性的，对吧？

Lenny Rachitsky: Like, a cup.

Lenny Rachitsky：就像一个杯子。

Say more about that because that is amazing because.

多说一点，因为那太神奇了。

And you're finding that most of the best names come from the groups that aren't...

你会发现大多数最好的名字都来自于那些不...

Let's name an amazing AI IDE.

让我们来命名一个令人惊叹的 AI IDE。

David Placek: This is a good example.

大卫·普拉塞克：这是一个很好的例子。

So in technology, there are some things that if someone hands you a new phone and you look at it and it's tangible and it's got a shape and color, things like that, easier to name.

因此，在技术领域，有些东西如果有人递给你一部新手机，你看着它，它是有形的，它有形状和颜色，诸如此类，更容易命名。

But the name of Windsurf, before it was Windsurf, was Codium.

但 Windsurf 在成为 Windsurf 之前的名称是 Codium。

So, it's all about a type of code or a process for coding.

因此，这都是关于一种代码类型或一种编码过程。

That's intangible.

那是无形的。

And even though we do an awful lot of technology work, it is still hard for us to really get ahold of what that is.

尽管我们做了很多技术工作，但我们仍然很难真正掌握它是什么。

So our rule here is if there's something that is intangible like that, we have to make it tangible.

因此，我们的规则是，如果有类似无形的东西，我们必须将其变成有形的。

And sometimes we do that not by giving a team, sometimes it's an individual, the assignment to create ideas for the brand itself, but to just dive into a particular context.

有时，我们不是通过给团队（有时是个人）分配为品牌本身创造创意的任务，而是深入到特定的环境中。

David Placek: And in this case with Windsurf, this is about flow about giving people that are coding something much more of a flow process, a smoother process, a more dynamic process.

David Placek：在 Windsurf 的例子中，这是关于流程的，为那些正在编码的人提供更多的流程、更流畅的流程、更动态的流程。

So in that case, One team was just given the task of we want to look at a list of all the things that can communicate either in a real word like flow or metaphorically or in a sport about that kind of dynamics.

因此，在这种情况下，一个团队的任务是我们想要查看一份所有事物的列表，这些事物可以用真实的词（如流）或隐喻的方式或在有关这种动态的运动中进行交流。

That kind of movement.

那样的动作。

And there was Windsurf sitting on a list.

Windsurf 也在名单上。

I mean, sometimes, this is really just that simple.

我的意思是，有时候，这真的就是这么简单。

Of course, you have to have the right framework and you have to give the right directions to someone.

当然，你必须有正确的框架，并且必须给某人正确的指示。

And Windsurf, for us and particularly for me, it checks all the boxes.

而 Windsurf，对于我们，特别是对于我来说，它满足了所有条件。

It's a wonderful image, it's an experience.

这是一个美妙的画面，这是一种体验。

Literally, a physical experience.

从字面上看，是一种身体体验。

It's a compound, right?

是化合物吧？

Two words put together.

两个词放在一起。

We know from the research we've invested in that compounds like Powerbook or Facebook are multipliers of associations because there's wind and there's circles around that, and then there's surf images around that.

从我们投资的研究中我们知道，像 Powerbook 或 Facebook 这样的化合物是关联的乘数，因为有风，周围有圆圈，然后还有冲浪图像。

So 1 + 1 = 3, right?

所以 1 + 1 = 3，对吗？

David Placek: It's interesting that when we present compounds to clients, we often get the comment, "Well, it's a little bit long and it's a compound.

David Placek：有趣的是，当我们向客户展示化合物时，我们经常得到这样的评论：“嗯，它有点长，而且是一个化合物。

I'd rather have a shorter single word." And then that's why we actually did research on just how effective our compounds so we could pass that information along.

我宁愿有一个更短的单词。”这就是为什么我们实际上研究了我们的化合物的有效性，以便我们可以传递这些信息。

We passed that along to the team at that time.

我们当时将其传递给了团队。

Codium, by the way, could not have been a more intelligent, nicer, more respectful team that we've worked with.

顺便说一句，Codium 是我们合作过的最聪明、更友善、更受人尊重的团队。

I'm so glad for their success.

我为他们的成功感到非常高兴。

But we explained to them about the multiplier effect of compounds.

但我们向他们解释了化合物的乘数效应。

We showed them imagery that they could use.

我们向他们展示了他们可以使用的图像。

I mean, it's simple to execute on something like that.

我的意思是，执行类似的事情很简单。

And so, that's how that came about.

所以，事情就是这样发生的。

I'll stop there and see if you need more information or not.

我会停在那里，看看您是否需要更多信息。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let me actually follow this through real quick.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我快速跟进一下。

It's going to be kind of a tangent.

这将是一种切线。

You guys have been working with AI companies more and more recently, which is so interesting.

你们最近越来越多地与人工智能公司合作，这很有趣。

What's different about naming AI products from traditional products, not AI, I guess?

我想，命名人工智能产品与传统产品（而不是AI）有什么不同？

David Placek: First off, we are working mostly with engineers, and engineers who haven't delved into the world of creativity and necessarily marketing.

David Placek：首先，我们主要与工程师合作，而这些工程师还没有深入研究创造力和营销领域。

And that's their strength.

这就是他们的力量。

And what we have to do is we have to balance their strength with our strength.

而我们要做的就是用我们的力量来平衡他们的力量。

So there's a little bit of a challenge there, but I think we deal pretty well with that.

因此，这里存在一些挑战，但我认为我们处理得很好。

Secondly, this is the fastest moving progressing category I have ever experienced.

其次，这是我经历过的进展最快的类别。

And I have that perspective, right?

我也有这样的观点，对吗？

I went through the early days of the internet and the World Wide Web, and that was moving pretty fast.

我经历了互联网和万维网的早期阶段，而且发展得非常快。

But the internet compared to this looks like a daycare school or something like that.

但与此相比，互联网看起来就像日托学校或类似的东西。

We're challenged by just keeping up with developments.

我们面临的挑战是跟上发展的步伐。

Third thing, and this is the creative challenge here, is that engineers come to us wanting more sophisticated names where they are likely to end up with another Codium or an Anduril or an Anthropic.

第三件事，也是这里的创造性挑战，是工程师来找我们想要更复杂的名字，他们最终可能会得到另一个 Codium 或 Anduril 或 Anthropic。

David Placek: And when we saw this trend of that AI is going to take off, and it was an intuitive feeling on my part.

David Placek：当我们看到人工智能即将起飞的趋势时，我有一种直观的感觉。

I could have been wrong.

我可能错了。

I said, "Let's find out what's going on here." So both, not only who's developing the products, but how do people think about AI?

我说：“让我们看看这里发生了什么事。”因此，不仅是谁在开发产品，而且人们如何看待人工智能？

And we did a series of research.

我们做了一系列的研究。

I probably invested $20,000 or so.

我大概投资了20,000美元左右。

And we interviewed consumers in Europe, South Korea, just picked out one country in Asia, and in America, and developers in those three.

我们采访了欧洲、韩国的消费者，刚刚挑选了亚洲和美国的一个国家，以及这三个国家的开发商。

And they really have different views.

他们确实有不同的观点。

Developers are all totally positive on it.

开发人员对此都非常积极。

They see the future, they see a big future, not too concerned, some are, but most aren't.

他们看到了未来，他们看到了一个伟大的未来，并不太担心，有些人是，但大多数人不是。

Consumers are skeptical, worried about it, worried about their jobs, see the hope in it, those types of things, but haven't got the handle on it.

消费者对此持怀疑态度，担心它，担心他们的工作，看到其中的希望，诸如此类的事情，但还没有掌握它。

David Placek: So Codium is an example where we said, "We think what you're doing needs to be much more tangible, and something that people can grab onto, and much more natural as opposed to a Codium." And they listened to us.

David Placek：Codium 就是一个例子，我们说，“我们认为你所做的事情需要更加具体，人们可以抓住，并且比 Codium 更自然。”他们听了我们的意见。

Very simple as that.

就这么简单。

And in this case, we were right.

在这种情况下，我们是对的。

And by the way also, I have to say, there's some luck to this.

顺便说一句，我也不得不说，这其中也有一些运气成分。

Windsurf happened to be available and they sought right away, not exactly right away but it took about a week going back and forth to select it.

风帆冲浪碰巧可用，他们立即寻找，不是完全立即，而是花了大约一周的时间来回选择。

So, let me stop there and see if that answers your question.

那么，让我停在这里，看看这是否能回答您的问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。

And it feels like most AI companies end up having a different name for their product than their company.

感觉大多数人工智能公司最终的产品名称与公司名称不同。

I've noticed this funny trend cursor was any sphere bold with stack is StackBlitz, Windsurf is Codium.

我注意到这个有趣的趋势光标是任何带有堆栈的粗体球体是 StackBlitz，Windsurf 是 Codium。

Basically, everyone.

基本上，每个人。

Lenny Rachitsky: When does it make sense to change your name?

Lenny Rachitsky：什么时候改变你的名字才有意义？

Windsurf just officially changed their entire company name to Windsurf from Codium.

Windsurf 刚刚正式将整个公司名称从 Codium 更改为 Windsurf。

It was just a product.

这只是一个产品。

So, let me just ask you that.

那么，让我问你这个问题。

When does it make sense?

什么时候才有意义呢？

It feels like a huge deal and a very challenging thing to do.

这感觉像是一件大事，也是一件非常具有挑战性的事情。

David Placek: It is challenging.

大卫·普拉塞克：这很有挑战性。

And the larger you are and the more customer base you have, it becomes a significant project.

你的规模越大，拥有的客户群越多，它就会成为一个重要的项目。

So the first thing is you have to make an argument that it's worth the change.

所以第一件事是你必须证明改变是值得的。

That we're going to be better off by changing our name.

通过改变我们的名字我们会变得更好。

So, there's a couple situations where you want to change your name.

因此，在某些情况下您想更改姓名。

First one is let's focus first on startups.

第一个是让我们首先关注初创公司。

Startups get going early, they get into Y Combinator or something like that, they're raising money.

初创公司很早就开始行动，他们进入 Y Combinator 或类似的公司，他们正在筹集资金。

And they just need a name.

他们只需要一个名字。

And although they know what they're doing, and that may change by 10 or 15 degrees, it's almost like, "We just got to have a name." And that is the absolute expression I hear from when a startup calls and says, "We want to change your name.

尽管他们知道自己在做什么，而且可能会发生 10 或 15 度的变化，但这几乎就像是，“我们只是需要有一个名字。”当一家初创公司打电话说：“我们想更改你的名字时，我听到的绝对是这样的表达方式。

We started off a year and a half ago.

我们从一年半前开始。

We just needed a name for the documents, and so we chose X." And it's not a very good name.

我们只需要给文档起一个名称，所以我们选择了 X。”这不是一个很好的名字。

So, that's example number one.

这是第一个例子。

David Placek: Number two is the company actually has pivoted.

David Placek：第二点是公司实际上已经发生了转变。

And so, the name that they have no longer really reflects who they are or who they're becoming, and which makes that name ineffective.

因此，他们的名字不再真正反映他们是谁或他们将成为谁，这使得这个名字无效。

And the third is that a company has merged and it is time now to create a new start and reflect to the marketplace that we're...

第三是一家公司已经合并，现在是时候创建一个新的开始并向市场反映我们正在......

We're new now, maybe bigger, but certainly we have more capabilities and we want you to know about it.

我们现在是新的，也许规模更大，但我们当然拥有更多的能力，我们希望您了解这一点。

And because of that, we're changing our to blank, which reflects those capabilities at some level.

正因为如此，我们将其更改为空白，这在某种程度上反映了这些功能。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm excited to have Andrew Luo joining us today.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴安德鲁·罗今天加入我们。

Andrew is CEO of OneSchema, one of our longtime podcast sponsors.

Andrew 是 OneSchema 的首席执行官，OneSchema 是我们的长期播客赞助商之一。

Welcome, Andrew.

欢迎，安德鲁。

Andrew Luo: Thanks for having me, Lenny.

罗安德：谢谢你邀请我，Lenny。

Great to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: So, what is new with OneSchema?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么，OneSchema 有哪些新功能？

I know that you work with some of my favorite companies like Ramp and Vanta and Watershed.

我知道您与我最喜欢的一些公司合作，例如 Ramp、Vanta 和 Watershed。

I heard you guys launched a new data intake product that automates the hours of manual work that teams spent importing, and mapping, and integrating CSV in Excel files.

我听说你们推出了一款新的数据获取产品，该产品可以自动执行团队在 Excel 文件中导入、映射和集成 CSV 所需的手动工作时间。

Andrew Luo: Yes.

罗安德鲁：是的。

So, we just launched the 2.0 of OneSchema FileFeeds.

因此，我们刚刚推出了 OneSchema FileFeeds 2.0。

We've rebuilt it from the ground up with AI.

我们用人工智能从头开始重建它。

We saw so many customers coming to us with teams of data engineers that struggled with the manual work required to clean messy spreadsheets.

我们看到很多客户带着数据工程师团队来到我们这里，他们在清理凌乱的电子表格所需的手动工作中遇到了困难。

FileFeeds 2.0 allows non-technical teams to automate the process of transforming CSV in Excel files with just a simple prompt.

FileFeeds 2.0 允许非技术团队通过简单的提示来自动执行 Excel 文件中的 CSV 转换过程。

We support all of the trickiest file integrations, SFTP, S3, and even email.

我们支持所有最棘手的文件集成、SFTP、S3，甚至电子邮件。

Lenny Rachitsky: I can tell you that if my team had to build integrations like this, how nice would it be to take this off our roadmap and instead use something like OneSchema.

Lenny Rachitsky：我可以告诉你，如果我的团队必须构建这样的集成，那么将其从我们的路线图上删除并使用 OneSchema 之类的东西该多好。

Andrew Luo: Absolutely, Lenny.

罗安德鲁：当然，莱尼。

We've heard so many horror stories of outages from even just a single bad record in transactions, employee files, purchase orders, you name it.

我们听过很多可怕的停电故事，哪怕只是交易、员工档案、采购订单等方面的一个不良记录。

Debugging these issues is often like finding a needle in a haystack.

调试这些问题通常就像大海捞针一样。

OneSchema stops any bad data from entering your system and automatically validates your files, generating error reports with the exact issues in all bad files.

OneSchema 可阻止任何不良数据进入您的系统并自动验证您的文件，生成错误报告，其中包含所有不良文件中的确切问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: I know that importing incorrect data can cause all kinds of pain for your customers and quickly lose their trust.

Lenny Rachitsky：我知道导入不正确的数据会给您的客户带来各种痛苦，并很快失去他们的信任。

Andrew, thank you so much for joining me.

安德鲁，非常感谢你加入我。

If you want to learn more, head on over to oneschema.co, That's oneschema.co.

如果您想了解更多信息，请访问 oneschema.co，这是 oneschema.co。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to this linguist piece, which I know is really unique to the way you guys operate, and it's so interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到这篇语言学家的文章，我知道这对你们的操作方式来说确实很独特，而且非常有趣。

So you employed, you've said, over 250 linguists over the course of your business career.

您说过，您在您的职业生涯中雇用了 250 多名语言学家。

This linguist step, the way you described it is they're not coming up with names, they're more kind of like a filter for, "Here's all the names we've come up with.

这个语言学家的步骤，正如你所描述的那样，他们没有想出名称，他们更像是一个过滤器，“这是我们想出的所有名称。

Here's the ones that are good linguistically." Is that right?

这是语言上好的。”是这样吗？

Or is that team also suggesting names?

或者该团队也在建议名字？

David Placek: Yeah.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的。

Some of the people there, depending on the assignment, will actually help us create names, for sure.

当然，根据任务的不同，那里的一些人实际上会帮助我们创建名称。

And so, we have linguists here.

所以，我们这里有语言学家。

And in the network, we have linguists.

在网络中，我们有语言学家。

And those linguists are contracts to us, not full-time employees.

这些语言学家是我们的合同工，而不是全职员工。

So, there's a little bit of both.

所以，两者都有一点。

But the preponderance of their work in our linguistic network is to evaluate names.

但他们在我们的语言网络中的主要工作是评估名称。

Not only just does it mean something negative or positive, but are there cultural implications to it?

它不仅意味着消极或积极的东西，而且还有文化含义吗？

Political implications?

政治影响？

Or even things that a natural disaster that would've happened somewhere that no one here would know about.

或者甚至是在某个地方发生的自然灾害，这里没有人知道。

Even if we had, if.

即使我们有，如果。

David Placek: This was in Italy, and there was a bridge or a flood that killed a lot of people.

大卫·普拉塞克（David Placek）：那是在意大利，有一座桥梁或一场洪水导致很多人死亡。

Someone that speaks Italian very well here, say at Berkeley University, but has lived here for 20 years, wouldn't know about that.

一个在这里意大利语说得很好的人，比如在伯克利大学，但在这里住了 20 年的人，不会知道这一点。

And we don't want anything linguistically that would slow our clients down.

我们不希望任何语言上的事情会减慢我们客户的速度。

And so, that's why we've invested in building this network.

因此，这就是我们投资建设这个网络的原因。

We have a woman that runs the network for it.

我们有一位女士负责管理该网络。

So, it's not an insignificant facet of our business that we have to run and manage.

因此，这并不是我们必须运营和管理的业务的一个无关紧要的方面。

Lenny Rachitsky: Is there a name you love that didn't pass the linguistic filter, that ended up being like, "Oh, shit.

Lenny Rachitsky：有没有一个你喜欢的名字没有通过语言过滤，最终变成了“哦，该死。

That's a really bad name in this culture"?

在这种文化中这真是一个坏名字”？

David Placek: It happens frequently where we will find something that isn't really terrible but it's worrisome to us.

David Placek：这种情况经常发生，我们会发现一些并不真正可怕但令我们担忧的事情。

It's interesting cultures like Australian or people in Australia, they have a lot of interesting expressions.

这是有趣的文化，比如澳大利亚或澳大利亚人，他们有很多有趣的表达方式。

And so, we do find things that this sounds like it's a certain kind of shrimp and things like that, and we eliminate those things.

因此，我们确实发现了听起来像是某种虾之类的东西，然后我们消除了这些东西。

And then we find things that have sort of sexual connotations, we eliminate those.

然后我们发现一些有性暗示的东西，我们就消除它们。

David Placek: I would say it happens every third or fourth project we'll find something that we will eliminate and never show the client.

David Placek：我想说，每隔三个或四个项目就会发生这种情况，我们会发现一些我们将消除的东西，并且永远不会向客户展示。

Lenny Rachitsky: And something you love and you're like, "Okay, I guess we can show that one"?

Lenny Rachitsky：还有一些你喜欢的东西，你会说，“好吧，我想我们可以展示那个”？

David Placek: That's true.

大卫·普拉塞克：确实如此。

That happens.

就会发生这种情况。

It does.

确实如此。

Lenny Rachitsky: You also said this really interesting thing about how every letter of the alphabet has a vibrance in an experience.

Lenny Rachitsky：你还说了一件非常有趣的事情，即字母表中的每个字母如何在体验中充满活力。

Can you give a few examples of that?

你能举几个例子吗？

I know you're not the person doing that work specifically, but just what are some letter feelings?

我知道你不是专门做这项工作的人，但有些字母的感觉是什么？

David Placek: The work is from the linguist, but at this point, I'm pretty adept in it.

David Placek：这项工作是语言学家的作品，但目前我已经非常擅长了。

So, let's look at...

那么，让我们看看...

I'll start with the letter V because it is so illustrative of what this is about.

我将从字母 V 开始，因为它非常能说明问题。

V, from our research that we've done, is the most alive and vibrant sound in the English alphabet.

根据我们所做的研究，V 是英语字母表中最有活力、最有活力的声音。

And that's whether you were born in Rome or in Sausalito, California.

这取决于您是出生在罗马还是加利福尼亚州索萨利托。

So if you know that, if you know that as you go around the world, there are going to be some exceptions to it.

所以，如果你知道这一点，如果你知道当你环游世界时，就会有一些例外。

It's going to have that vibrancy.

它将会有那样的活力。

Look at Corvette.

看看克尔维特。

They probably didn't know about V, but it's a perfect name for a car that's fast and has a big engine that roars.

他们可能不知道 V，但对于一辆速度快且拥有咆哮的大型发动机的汽车来说，这是一个完美的名字。

Think about Viagra, same idea.

想想伟哥，同样的想法。

And there's been surprises to us.

并且给我们带来了惊喜。

B, the sound of the letter B is one of the most reliable sounds in the English alphabet.

B，字母B的发音是英语字母表中最可靠的发音之一。

That was one of our rationales, by the way, for Blackberry.

顺便说一句，这是我们选择黑莓的理由之一。

Because that's another example of a client who thought we were...

因为这是客户认为我们...的另一个例子

I mean, the founder actually said, "I thought the people at Lexicon were crazy," when they presented Blackberry.

我的意思是，当 Lexicon 推出黑莓手机时，创始人实际上说过，“我认为 Lexicon 的人疯了”。

David Placek: And we said, "Well, let's stop and look at some of the assets here.

David Placek：我们说，“好吧，让我们停下来看看这里的一些资产。

First off, black color's technology.

首先，黑色技术。

Yes, not everybody knows the word berry, but we have those two Bs." We talked about the nature of a compound.

是的，不是每个人都知道浆果这个词，但我们有这两个 B。”我们讨论了化合物的性质。

And all of a sudden, people at least lean forward to consider it as opposed to rejecting it too fast.

突然之间，人们至少倾向于考虑它，而不是太快地拒绝它。

So, those are just two examples.

所以，这只是两个例子。

I mentioned Z in Azure, that's noisy letter.

我在 Azure 中提到过 Z，那是个吵闹的字母。

X is fast and crisp as a sound.

X 的声音像声音一样快速而清脆。

And of course, there's semantic value to all of these letters, too.

当然，所有这些字母也都有语义价值。

X is about innovation from aircraft to computers.

X 是关于从飞机到计算机的创新。

And so, you have to look at the semantics of it and the sound symbol of it.

所以，你必须看看它的语义和它的声音符号。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is so fascinating.

Lenny Rachitsky：这太令人着迷了。

I could listen to this stuff all day.

我可以整天听这些东西。

Just thinking about Vercel with the V, that very aligns with what they're trying to do.

想想 Vercel 和 V，这与他们想要做的事情非常一致。

Just very strong, opinionated way of working.

只是非常强烈、固执己见的工作方式。

And Guillermo, he feels like a V person.

而吉列尔莫，他给人的感觉就像一个V人。

David Placek: He is.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的。

And there's an example of a group that had a lot of confidence, and what their product is is very innovative.

有一个例子，一个团队非常有信心，他们的产品非常创新。

And so, we had permission there to create something new because Vercel is a coin solution., right?

因此，我们获得了创造新事物的许可，因为 Vercel 是一种硬币解决方案，对吧？

But notice that we put some very simple, easy to process things together there.

但请注意，我们将一些非常简单、易于处理的东西放在一起。

Or ver, in this case.

或者版本，在这种情况下。

So we have in vino veritas, truth in wine, things like that.

所以我们有“vino veritas”，“葡萄酒中的真理”，诸如此类的东西。

You have verde, green.

你有翠绿、绿色。

So, very familiar.

所以，非常熟悉。

And then their cel, like accelerate, something which is really what they do.

然后他们的细胞，比如加速，这正是他们所做的。

They accelerate a client's performance.

它们可以提高客户的绩效。

So, that was a relatively easy name for us to present and we were excited about for them to grasp.

因此，对于我们来说，这是一个相对容易呈现的名称，我们很高兴他们能够掌握。

David Placek: By the way, that's known as processing fluency, which is when you think about how the brain processes information.

David Placek：顺便说一句，这就是所谓的处理流畅性，即当你思考大脑如何处理信息时。

We're told by a number of cognitive science that our brains are a little bit on the lazy side.

许多认知科学告诉我们，我们的大脑有点懒惰。

We don't like complex things.

我们不喜欢复杂的事情。

And so, we really strive to make all of our solutions relatively easy for the brain to process.

因此，我们确实努力让我们的所有解决方案相对容易被大脑处理。

So it wants, it leans in towards them as opposed to, "I'm too busy.

所以它想要，它倾向于他们，而不是，“我太忙了。

I'm walking past that." Names that are complicated, it's a liability.

我正从那儿走过。”名字太复杂了，这是一种负担。

And we really avoid that.

我们确实避免了这种情况。

But Vercel, perfect fluency.

但维塞尔，完美流畅。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, let's go back, actually, to the three steps.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，让我们回到实际上的三个步骤。

So we covered two, and it took us on a long tangent to dive into a lot of the stuff you shared with the second step, which you call invent.

所以我们讨论了两个，我们花了很长时间才深入研究你在第二步中分享的许多内容，你称之为发明。

So, it's essentially the three steps are...

所以，本质上这三个步骤是......

Was it create?

是被创造出来的吗？

What would you call it?

你会怎么称呼它？

The step?

步骤？

David Placek: And I use the word invent with intention because it's more than creative.

David Placek：我有意使用“发明”这个词，因为它不仅仅是创意。

And then the final thing is implement.

然后最后一件事就是实施。

Now for us, we're not a design firm.

现在对我们来说，我们不是一家设计公司。

We're really focused on brand names and the nomenclature that supports the name.

我们真正关注的是品牌名称和支持该名称的术语。

But for us, implement is helping the client team, if they choose, for us to help them with the presentations as it goes up the chain.

但对我们来说，实施正在帮助客户团队（如果他们选择的话），让我们在整个链条上帮助他们进行演示。

To help them write a longer rationale for why these names, if they're presenting three names to the president of their company or the CMO, why these names make a lot of sense, and to help them develop what we call prototypes.

为了帮助他们写出更长的理由来说明为什么使用这些名称，如果他们向公司总裁或首席营销官提出三个名称，为什么这些名称很有意义，并帮助他们开发我们所说的原型。

So we'll put the name on a baseball cap, on a T-shirt.

所以我们会把名字印在棒球帽上、印在 T 恤上。

We'll put the name in a mock-up ad in the Wall Street Journal.

我们将把这个名字放在《华尔街日报》的模拟广告中。

Something's very positive.

有些事情非常积极。

Because of Procter & Gamble's new blank product.

因为宝洁公司新推出的空白产品。

P&G shares, they gain 10% this year.

宝洁公司的股价今年上涨了 10%。

So that executives can see that the lift that that name can have.

以便管理人员能够看到该名称可以带来的提升。

That's our implementation phase for them.

这就是我们对他们的实施阶段。

David Placek: And we also do consumer research or customer research at that stage, and we do that probably about 50% of the time on our projects where we're going out and we're really talking to their customers, and putting the names in a series of drills.

David Placek：我们也在这个阶段进行消费者研究或客户研究，我们在我们要出去的项目中大约有 50% 的时间这样做，我们真正与他们的客户交谈，并将名字放入一系列演习中。

Drills that make them not the marketing person for the day, but we're really making these customers feel that this is a new brand.

这些训练使他们不再是当今的营销人员，但我们确实让这些客户觉得这是一个新品牌。

And then, we're asking about expectations.

然后，我们询问期望。

We're seeing how these names fire their imagination.

我们正在看到这些名字如何激发他们的想象力。

And that's the most important thing in research, not is the name popular, are they comfortable with it, does it fit to concept.

这是研究中最重要的事情，不是这个名字是否流行，而是他们是否适应它，它是否符合概念。

If you're asking people is this fit to concept, you are inevitably always going to get a descriptive name.

如果你问人们这是否符合概念，你不可避免地总会得到一个描述性的名字。

Lenny Rachitsky: You make such a good point about how you need to arm the people working with you with ammo to win over other folks internally.

Lenny Rachitsky：您提出了一个很好的观点，即您需要如何用弹药武装与您一起工作的人，以赢得内部其他人的支持。

Because if the person working with you is on board and the name is bold and not an obvious winner, I could see it being important to be like, "Here's what you should all show them to help them see the story, and the mock-ups, and all of that."

因为如果与你一起工作的人在船上，而且名字很大胆，而且不是明显的赢家，我认为重要的是，“这是你们都应该向他们展示的内容，以帮助他们了解故事、模型，以及所有这些。”

David Placek: Yes.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的。

And what's really important is to help their management see this in the context of the marketplace and their customers.

真正重要的是帮助他们的管理层在市场和客户的背景下认识到这一点。

This is a very human thing, but people want their boss to be happy.

这是一件非常人性化的事情，但人们都希望他们的老板高兴。

They want to be okay with their boss.

他们希望与老板和睦相处。

And so they're thinking about, "I don't know if my boss would like this." He's more conservative or she's more conservative.

所以他们在想，“我不知道我的老板是否会喜欢这个。”他比较保守，或者她比较保守。

We try in a very diplomatic way to say, "This has nothing, really, in the end to do with your boss.

我们试图以一种非常外交的方式说：“这实际上与你的老板没有任何关系。

It has to do with the marketplace."

这与市场有关。”

David Placek: Well, that's easy for me to say because I'm not working at a P&G or an Intel, but we really try to give that advice for it because it is about being successful in the marketplace.

David Placek：嗯，这对我来说很容易说，因为我不是在宝洁公司或英特尔公司工作，但我们确实尽力提供建议，因为这关系到在市场上取得成功。

And so first of all, we try to separate the clients that we work with.

因此，首先，我们尝试区分与我们合作的客户。

We really want to work with clients that play to win, that want to win, not just want to not lose in a marketplace.

我们真的希望与那些追求胜利、想要获胜而不仅仅是希望在市场上不失败的客户合作。

And so, we try to encourage our direct clients to lead the process to really say, if a manager or a CMO or a president says, "Look, we're the team that's going to execute on this and we believe in this.

因此，如果经理、首席营销官或总裁说：“看，我们是执行此操作的团队，我们相信这一点。

We can make this work," they usually rally around it.

我们可以做到这一点，”他们通常会团结起来。

They usually do.

他们通常会这样做。

But if you're just taking names up to a manager and saying, "What do you think?" There's a different outcome offered.

但如果你只是把名字告诉经理并说：“你觉得怎么样？”提供了不同的结果。

David Placek: So, we like to be in that implementation phase because we have so much experience.

David Placek：所以，我们喜欢处于实施阶段，因为我们拥有丰富的经验。

And usually, credibility with people.

通常，是对人的信任。

Lenny Rachitsky: And you said that you come up with 3 to 4,000 names.

Lenny Rachitsky：你说你想出了 3 到 4,000 个名字。

That's the top of the funnel?

那是漏斗的顶部吗？

David Placek: Yeah.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的。

And just to clarify that, it's ideas, directions.

只是为了澄清这一点，这是想法、方向。

It's not-

这不是——

David Placek: Yeah, not ready-to-ship names at all.

David Placek：是的，根本没有准备好发布的名字。

David Placek: This is a very inefficient process and a little chaotic.

David Placek：这是一个非常低效的过程，而且有点混乱。

So in that list of 3,000 names is probably 250 potential diamonds that have to be fractured and examined.

因此，在 3,000 个名字的列表中，可能有 250 颗潜在的钻石需要进行破碎和检查。

Lenny Rachitsky: I really want to see just a documentary of this process at some point.

Lenny Rachitsky：我真的很想在某个时候看一部关于这个过程的纪录片。

This is the closer we're going to get for now, but this is so interesting.

这是我们现在即将接近的结果，但这非常有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to ask about how you would approach this if you're just a startup that doesn't have the time or resource to do this.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想问一下，如果您只是一家没有时间或资源来做这件事的初创公司，您将如何处理这个问题。

But before I do that, is there anything else around the process that you guys go through with clients that you think is important to share or they think might surprise people?

但在我这样做之前，在你们与客户一起经历的过程中，还有什么是您认为值得分享的，或者他们认为可能会让人们感到惊讶的吗？

David Placek: I think we've covered it.

David Placek：我想我们已经讨论过了。

I do.

我愿意。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太好了。

Awesome.

惊人的。

Okay, so most people listening to this, there's a lot of founders, a lot of PMs on product teams.

好吧，大多数人都在听这个，产品团队中有很多创始人、很多产品经理。

They're working on a new feature, they're about to launch a product, they got accepted into YC and they're about to launch a product.

他们正在开发一项新功能，他们即将推出一款产品，他们被 YC 接受，他们即将推出一款产品。

Then they have, I don't know, let's say they have a couple of weeks.

然后他们有，我不知道，假设他们有几周的时间。

We've got to come up with a name.

我们必须想出一个名字。

What should they do?

他们应该做什么？

David Placek: So the first thing I do is to say, okay, let's forget about developing the name for right now.

David Placek：所以我做的第一件事就是说，好吧，让我们暂时忘记开发这个名字吧。

And I will have them, and I think this is a good exercise for anybody.

我会拥有它们，我认为这对任何人来说都是一个很好的练习。

We do it here internally when we think about our business.

当我们考虑我们的业务时，我们会在内部这样做。

So I say, just...

所以我说，只是...

Because most of this now, because of COVID, is on video.

因为现在，由于新冠疫情，大部分内容都是通过视频进行的。

And I will say, "Just draw a shape of a diamond on a piece of paper in front of you." And I said, "On the top of that diamond, put the word win.

我会说，“只要在你面前的一张纸上画一个钻石的形状就可以了。”我说：“在那颗钻石的顶部写上‘胜利’这个词。

How do you define winning is really it?" I said, "Now on that other next corner of the diamond, what do you have to win?

你如何定义真正的胜利？”我说：“现在在菱形的下一个角上，你要赢得什么？

Write that down.

把它写下来。

On the bottom, what do you need to win?

在底部，你需要赢得什么？

And then on that final angle on the left-hand side, what do you have to say to win?" Then I said, "Now, let's go all the way to that final thing of what do you have to say to win."

然后在左侧的最后一个角度，你要说什么才能获胜？”然后我说：“现在，让我们一起讨论最后一件事，即你必须说些什么才能获胜。”

David Placek: And that's where you just get people thinking about, "Well, what we really have here is...

大卫·普拉塞克：这就是你让人们思考的地方，“好吧，我们这里真正拥有的是......

And we're better than this." And then I'll just say, "Okay.

我们比这更好。”然后我就会说：“好吧。

Now, what you want to take that this really should be about experience and behavior.

现在，你认为这实际上应该是关于经验和行为。

How do you want to behave in the marketplace?

您希望如何在市场上表现？

How do you want the marketplace to behave towards you?

您希望市场如何对待您？

And what kind of experience are you creating?" And then they'll start talking a little bit.

你正在创造什么样的体验？”然后他们会开始聊一点。

I'll say, "Now, you just need to probe on that.

我会说：“现在，你只需要探究一下。

You need to keep going.

你需要继续前进。

You need to look at metaphors because this is about experience." And I'll just give them some of our examples that we've talked about, "Blackberry, it says to the marketplace, they're not like the other guys." Think of something like Google versus Infoseek, right?

你需要看看隐喻，因为这关乎经验。”我只会给他们一些我们讨论过的例子，“黑莓，它告诉市场，他们与其他人不同。”想想 Google 与 Infoseek 之类的东西，对吗？

Google is an experience.

谷歌是一种体验。

Google says, "I don't know what these guys are going to do, but it's not this practical mundane Infoseek." And that's what attracts people.

谷歌表示，“我不知道这些人要做什么，但这不是这种实用的、平凡的 Infoseek。”这就是吸引人们的地方。

David Placek: And so I'll do a little coaching like that, and then that usually kind of sets them free.

大卫·普拉塞克：所以我会做一些类似的指导，然后这通常会让他们自由。

And they're now thinking about it not as a word, which has maybe limited value, but as creating an experience which has the potential for unlimited value.

他们现在不再将其视为一个可能价值有限的词，而是将其视为创造一种具有无限价值潜力的体验。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So, let me try to reflect this back for folks.

所以，让我试着向人们反映这一点。

So the advice is draw triangle.

所以建议是画三角形。

So, you're coming up with a name.

所以，你正在想一个名字。

Draw triangle.

画三角形。

At the top, win.

登顶，胜利。

At the bottom-left, was it how do you win?

左下角是如何获胜的？

David Placek: Yeah.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的。

So, the diamond is two triangles.

所以，菱形是两个三角形。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, diamond.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，钻石。

Okay, I see.

好吧，我明白了。

I have triangle in my mind.

我脑子里有一个三角形。

David Placek: And so on that next angle there on the right side is, what do you have to win already?

David Placek：那么右边的下一个角度是，你已经赢得了什么？

Right?

正确的？

Because they wouldn't be either in a Y Combinator or getting some seed money if they didn't have something to win.

因为如果他们没有什么可赢得的，他们就不会加入 Y Combinator，也不会获得一些种子资金。

And often, people, startups don't appreciate how much they actually do have to win because they're so busy and so stressed on what they're doing.

通常，人们、初创公司并没有意识到他们实际上需要赢得多少胜利，因为他们太忙了，对自己所做的事情压力太大。

And then, what do they need to win?

那么，他们需要什么才能赢得胜利？

And then finally, what do you need to say?

最后，你需要说什么？

And then back up to defining what is winning to us?

然后回过头来定义什么对我们来说是胜利？

Which, by the way, we start with that question usually on an assignment that we've been awarded.

顺便说一句，我们通常从我们获得的作业中提出这个问题。

And if we're in a room with five people, all five people have a different definition of what...

如果我们在一个有五个人的房间里，所有五个人对什么都有不同的定义......

Their definition of that company winning.

他们对公司获胜的定义。

And that's good to sort that out because we can move down different avenues from a creative standpoint.

解决这个问题很好，因为我们可以从创意的角度沿着不同的途径前进。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's just make sure people have these phrases because this is awesome.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们确保人们拥有这些短语，因为这太棒了。

And I imagine many people are going to be taking notes and like, "Cool.

我想很多人都会记笔记并喜欢，“酷。

I'm going to do this." I hope so say the four points of the diamond again just so folks can write it all down.

我要做这件事。”我希望再次说出钻石的四个点，以便人们可以将其全部写下来。

David Placek: At the top of the diamond is just the word win, and underneath that is how do we define winning for us as a company.

David Placek：钻石的顶部只有“胜利”一词，下面是我们如何定义公司的“胜利”。

And that can start off being simple, like we want to be the dominant player here.

一开始可以很简单，就像我们想成为这里的主导者一样。

But you really have to work at that.

但你确实必须为此努力。

What does that really mean, right?

这到底意味着什么，对吧？

The second on that right-hand tip there of the diamond is what do we have to win?

菱形右端的第二个是我们必须赢得什么？

What are we doing now that makes us a winner?

我们现在正在做什么让我们成为赢家？

Then we go down to the bottom of the diamond, and it's what do we need to win?

然后我们走到菱形的底部，这就是我们需要赢得的是什么？

There could be technical things there.

那里可能有技术性的东西。

People talk about talent and resources.

人们谈论人才和资源。

Often there, they'll say, "We need a good name." We always correct that.

通常，他们会说：“我们需要一个好名字。”我们总是纠正这一点。

It's not the good name, it's the right name.

这不是一个好名字，而是一个正确的名字。

David Placek: And then finally is what do we need to say?

David Placek：最后我们需要说什么？

And that's where I say, that's where you want to spend some time in really thinking about all the things you need to say, that you can say or you would even like to say, which maybe right now you can't say.

这就是我要说的地方，那就是你想要花一些时间真正思考你需要说的所有事情，你可以说的，或者你甚至想说的，也许现在你不能说的。

But you want to a name that actually is going to have the flexibility as to when you can say that, it still works.

但你想要一个实际上具有灵活性的名称，当你可以说它仍然有效时。

And that gets them into behavior and experience.

这让他们进入行为和体验。

And that usually launches a really a good discussion with founders internally.

这通常会在内部与创始人进行一次非常好的讨论。

Lenny Rachitsky: When you say you have to win though, what you're thinking about there is what is it that you have that will help you win?

Lenny Rachitsky：当你说你必须获胜时，你想到的是你拥有什么可以帮助你获胜？

And then what is it you need to have this win?

那么你需要什么才能赢得这场胜利呢？

David Placek: Yes, that's right.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的，没错。

And all companies are in that same situation.

所有公司都处于同样的情况。

They have a bunch of stuff, but they need...

他们有很多东西，但他们需要...

A P&G might say, "We need a good distributor."

宝洁公司可能会说：“我们需要一个好的经销商。”

"Okay.

“好吧。

All right, we'll put that on the list.": And then you might say, "Well, we need in..." When it gets to what do we have to say, we have to say the right things so that a distributor is interested in us.

好吧，我们会把它放在清单上。”：然后你可能会说，“好吧，我们需要……”当谈到我们必须说的话时，我们必须说正确的事情，以便经销商对我们感兴趣。

And then you go down an avenue there.

然后你沿着一条大道走到那里。

Well, what is that?

嗯，那是什么？

And if you work at it, this is not a one-hour exercise, it may be an exercise repeated over the next 4 or 5 days.

如果你努力的话，这不是一个一小时的练习，它可能是在接下来的 4 或 5 天内重复的练习。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

So, you have this diamond.

所以，你拥有了这颗钻石。

And then the idea is just sit and put names down in a Google Doc, let's say.

然后我们的想法就是坐下来把名字记在谷歌文档中，比方说。

David Placek: Yeah.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的。

And then you start.

然后你就开始了。

But there is this...

但有这个...

And maybe, it's naivete.

也许，这很天真。

I guess, that's probably the best word for this is that, because I do hear this all of the time.

我想，这可能是最好的词了，因为我确实一直听到这个。

"Hey, we've worked at this, we got a list of 200 names, but we don't think there's something there."

“嘿，我们已经做了这件事，我们得到了 200 个名字的名单，但我们认为里面没有什么东西。”

David Placek: And I'll say, "Well, 200 names is not enough.

David Placek：我会说，“好吧，200 个名字是不够的。

Get to 1,000, 1,500 names and directions.

获取 1,000 个、1,500 个姓名和路线。

Don't evaluate them.

不要评价他们。

Just generate names, and directions, and ideas, and then have a meeting.

只需生成姓名、方向和想法，然后召开会议。

And don't evaluate but speculate." What could we do with this name?

不要评估，而要推测。”我们可以用这个名字做什么？

What's the potential here?

这里有什么潜力？

There's a lot of overevaluation in our industry.

我们这个行业存在很多高估的情况。

It makes sense.

这是有道理的。

We survive as humans because we figure out what's wrong with this picture.

我们作为人类得以生存，因为我们弄清楚了这张照片出了什么问题。

If I want to cross the street, is it safe to cross the street?

如果我想过马路，过马路安全吗？

What's going on?

这是怎么回事？

Those kinds of things.

诸如此类的事情。

You have to counter that.

你必须反驳这一点。

You have to say, "Let's just suspend judgment for a while.

你必须说：“让我们暂时搁置判断吧。

And let's do an exercise here where we take these 10 names that we think might work and what are we going to do with it." Because it's how you execute.

让我们在这里做一个练习，选取我们认为可能有用的 10 个名称，以及我们将如何处理它们。”因为这就是你执行的方式。

David Placek: Going back to windsurf, as we showed them pictures of people windsurfing and waves and things, if they said, "Ah, that just doesn't work for us at all.

David Placek：回到风帆冲浪，当我们向他们展示人们风帆冲浪、海浪和其他事物的照片时，如果他们说，“啊，这对我们来说根本不起作用。

I'm very uncomfortable with." Well, then it's not their name.

我对此感到非常不舒服。”好吧，那这不是他们的名字。

But they leaned into it, "Okay, I can see this.

但他们倾向于说：“好吧，我能看到这一点。

It's easy for us to execute.

我们很容易执行。

It's dynamic, it's different." So, that's why we build these prototypes for people.

它是动态的，是不同的。”所以，这就是我们为人们构建这些原型的原因。

And that's what...

这就是...

I think the best advice I can give to whether it's a startup or someone starting a new cookie company, is it's not just a list of 200 names.

我认为，无论是初创公司还是新创办 Cookie 公司的人，我能给的最好建议是，这不仅仅是 200 个名字的列表。

It's 10 or 15 lists of 200 names.

这是 10 或 15 个 200 个名字的列表。

And it's thinking about what do we have to say here?

它正在思考我们在这里要说什么？

What behavior?

什么行为？

How do we want people to feel in the marketplace about us?

我们希望市场上的人们对我们有什么感觉？

I imagine with Google, people felt relief that it wasn't a descriptive name.

我想，有了谷歌，人们会因为它不是一个描述性的名字而感到宽慰。

That there was something new out there in the marketplace.

市场上有一些新的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Infoseek, that's such a descriptive name now that I think about it.

Infoseek，我现在想起来，这是一个非常具有描述性的名字。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so one more question along these lines.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，那么还有一个问题。

So say, you have a list of let's say 2,000 or 1,000 names.

假设您有一个包含 2,000 或 1,000 个名字的列表。

There's this tension between choosing something...

选择某件事之间存在着这种紧张感...

Like, as a person that is doing them themselves.

就像，作为一个自己做这些事情的人。

Your advice is choose something bold, not something descriptive.

你的建议是选择大胆的东西，而不是描述性的东西。

You won't know it when you see it.

当你看到它时你不会知道。

Very hard to do, obviously, when you're doing it by yourself.

显然，当你自己做时，很难做到。

And you just advise for not losing sight of that piece.

你只是建议不要忽视那件作品。

Just throwing out things that feel too scary, finding a name that's actually bold as you suggest.

只是扔掉那些感觉太可怕的东西，找到一个像你建议的那样实际上大胆的名字。

David Placek: First off, we disappear...

David Placek：首先，我们消失了……

Human psychology, humans only pay attention to what is new or what is different, I should say.

我应该说，人类心理学，人类只关注新的或不同的东西。

So if you're looking at shoes and they're all black, black, black, black, and then the next pair of shoes is red, that's the first thing you focus on.

因此，如果你看鞋子，它们都是黑、黑、黑、黑，然后下一双鞋是红色，那就是你首先关注的事情。

And so, that usually gives people permission.

因此，这通常会给予人们许可。

They'll say, "Okay, I get that." So, look for what is really different between the names that you have on your list, but also what's different from what's out in the marketplace.

他们会说：“好吧，我明白了。”因此，请寻找您列表中的名称之间真正的不同之处，以及与市场上出售的名称之间的不同之处。

Then you get a client like Microsoft saying, "Azure is different.

然后，像 Microsoft 这样的客户会说：“Azure 是不同的。

There's going to be a lot of cloud stuff and..." There's a relevant point there, Azure is blue.

将会有很多云的东西......”有一个相关的观点，Azure 是蓝色的。

And so, there's a slight logical connection that I think gave them more permission to move forward with it, frankly.

因此，坦率地说，我认为存在轻微的逻辑联系，这给了他们更多的许可来继续推进。

But listen, this is not an easy task.

但听着，这不是一件容易的事。

I mean, that's why we're in this business, and why I felt we should be specialized because if you start doing design and/or advertising or other things, you can't have the intellectual engine.

我的意思是，这就是我们从事这个行业的原因，也是为什么我觉得我们应该专业化，因为如果你开始做设计和/或广告或其他事情，你就无法拥有智能引擎。

David Placek: You can't acquire the intellectual engine that we have.

David Placek：你无法获得我们拥有的智能引擎。

So I know it's difficult, but it can be done, and you just have to give yourself some time.

所以我知道这很困难，但这是可以做到的，你只需要给自己一些时间。

But stop evaluating.

但停止评估。

Suspend judgment and speculate.

暂停判断并进行推测。

That's my number one advice to people trying to do this on their own.

这是我对那些试图自己做这件事的人的第一条建议。

Now, how can you get help?

现在，您如何获得帮助？

You can talk to your employees, but it's not so much, "What do you think of this name?" It's, "What do you think this name could do for us?" That's a much better question.

你可以和你的员工交谈，但不要说“你觉得这个名字怎么样？”问题是，“你认为这个名字能为我们带来什么？”这是一个更好的问题。

If you go out and talk to friends who don't work for your company, there's a fun drill that I suggest.

如果你出去和不在你公司工作的朋友交谈，我建议你进行一次有趣的练习。

I said, "Listen, go out to them and say..." They'll know what you're doing.

我说，“听着，出去告诉他们……”他们会知道你在做什么。

And say, "You know what?

并说：“你知道吗？

We just have a new competitor and their name is blank.

我们刚刚有了一个新的竞争对手，他们的名字是空白的。

What do you think about that?"

你对此有何看法？”

David Placek: What happens there is you're not asking them to give you an opinion to evaluate a name.

David Placek：发生的情况是，你不会要求他们给你评价一个名字的意见。

You're asking them then what does that name do for you?

你问他们这个名字对你有什么作用？

The information you're getting is that name, they're telling you what that name does for them, how it helps them to imagine, which is a fundamental role of any name.

你得到的信息就是那个名字，他们告诉你这个名字对他们有什么作用，它如何帮助他们想象，这是任何名字的基本作用。

Slight tangent, but I'm going to go to our kind of research.

有点离题，但我要进行我们的研究。

We do mostly quantitative research now, but for years, we did qualitative work.

我们现在主要进行定量研究，但多年来我们一直在进行定性研究。

And we still do.

我们仍然这样做。

But what we found in, we were always looking for the...

但我们发现，我们一直在寻找......

David Placek: I'll set it this way.

David Placek：我会这样设置。

We were always looking for this answer from consumers.

我们一直在从消费者那里寻找这个答案。

If a consumer said, "I don't really know much about that new product, but I know that they're not like the other guys." That's when we knew we had a good name because they were...

如果消费者说：“我对这款新产品不太了解，但我知道它们与其他产品不同。”那时我们知道我们有一个好名字，因为他们......

Now what happened there?

现在那里发生了什么？

I mean, the technical term that we use is that name will create a predisposition to consider this product because they're not like the other guys, as opposed to, "I already have something like that.

我的意思是，我们使用的技术术语是，这个名字会让人产生考虑该产品的倾向，因为他们不像其他人，而不是“我已经有类似的东西了。

I'm busy.

我很忙。

I don't need another one of those things.

我不需要另外一件这样的东西。

I need something new and different, and hopefully better."

我需要一些新的、不同的东西，而且希望更好。”

Lenny Rachitsky: That's awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

That's a good reminder.

这是一个很好的提醒。

There's a quote that I found of yours that's exactly along these lines, "If your team is comfortable with the name, chances are you don't have the name yet."

我发现你的一句话与此完全一致：“如果你的团队对这个名字感到满意，那么你很可能还没有这个名字。”

David Placek: Yes.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的。

And by the way, the opposite of that is we look for polarization.

顺便说一句，与此相反的是我们寻找两极分化。

We look for tension in a team about arguing about these things, because we think that polarization is a sign of strength in the word.

我们在团队中寻找争论这些事情的紧张气氛，因为我们认为两极分化是世界力量的标志。

And interesting story, the person who taught me that, honestly, was Andy Grove over the Pentium name, because...

有趣的故事，老实说，告诉我这一点的人是安迪·格罗夫（Andy Grove），而不是奔腾这个名字，因为……

And I learned a lot from him.

我从他身上学到了很多东西。

I always say this, I just was very fortunate to work with him on Pentium, and Xeon, and a few other things.

我总是这么说，我非常幸运能够与他一起开发奔腾、至强以及其他一些产品。

But when we went to an executive committee to present Pentium...

但是当我们去执行委员会展示奔腾时......

And by the way, internally, one of the names that...

顺便说一句，在内部，其中一个名字......

And makes sense here, descriptive, bunch of engineers, ProChip.

这里是有道理的，描述性的，一群工程师，ProChip。

"Hey, it's professional, it's premium, and it's chipped.

“嘿，它很专业，很高级，而且有缺口。

So, it should be Prochip." So Andy had me give a presentation about the strengths of this thing, and he said, "Now, let me tell you why I think this is the right name."

所以，应该是 Prochip。”所以安迪让我介绍一下这个东西的优点，他说：“现在，让我告诉你为什么我认为这是正确的名字。”

David Placek: He said, "Because I see the polarization here in it amongst people.

大卫·普拉塞克：他说，“因为我看到人们之间存在两极分化。

There's this ProChip over here, there's the Pentium thing." He said, "That tells me there's energy for Pentium here." And he said, "That's why I think we should go with it." And I've never forgotten that.

这里有 ProChip，还有 Pentium。”他说：“这告诉我这里有奔腾的能量。”他说：“这就是为什么我认为我们应该这样做。”我从未忘记过这一点。

And so, we do look for that.

因此，我们确实在寻找这一点。

And when we tell that story, people say, "You're right.

当我们讲述这个故事时，人们会说：“你是对的。

There is...

有...

I mean, we are arguing about this, and there is an intensity with the name." And that's what you want.

我的意思是，我们正在争论这个问题，而且这个名字很激烈。”这就是你想要的。

You don't want to go out in the marketplace, into this very competitive marketplace, regardless of the category, with something that doesn't have a level of boldness or intensity.

你不想进入市场，进入这个竞争非常激烈的市场，无论类别如何，带着没有一定程度的大胆或强度的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: That was an amazing story.

Lenny Rachitsky：那是一个了不起的故事。

Just again, so kind of a tip here is if half of your team or, I don't know, some percent of your team hates it, some percent of your team loves it, that's a good sign.

再说一次，这里的一个提示是，如果你的团队中有一半的人，或者，我不知道，你团队中的某些人讨厌它，你的团队中的某些人喜欢它，这是一个好兆头。

David Placek: Yeah, it is.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的，确实如此。

It is.

这是。

Look for that polarization.

寻找那种极化。

That's what we look for.

这就是我们所寻找的。

Lenny Rachitsky: I also love this tip of asking people if, "Hey, our competitor just launched.

Lenny Rachitsky：我也喜欢询问人们是否“嘿，我们的竞争对手刚刚推出。

They're called Windsurf." How your team reacts?

它们被称为风帆冲浪。”你的团队反应如何？

If they're just like, "Oh, wow, that's a great name.

如果他们只是说，“哦，哇，这名字真好。

I'm interested in that product." That's what you want to look for?

我对那个产品很感兴趣。”这就是您想要寻找的？

Lenny Rachitsky: How important is the .com for the name you come up with?

Lenny Rachitsky：.com 对于您想出的名字有多重要？

I imagine it's really hard to get these days.

我想现在真的很难得到。

Just what do you think about domain name when you think about naming?

当您想到命名时，您对域名有何看法？

David Placek: I am so glad you asked this question because at this point, it doesn't really matter at all.

David Placek：我很高兴你问这个问题，因为在这一点上，这根本不重要。

The .com or URL address has become an area code.

.com 或 URL 地址已成为区号。

And whether you're in 415 or 615, it doesn't really matter to people.

不管你是415还是615，这对人们来说并不重要。

And now with AI, SEO is going to be less important.

现在有了人工智能，搜索引擎优化将不再那么重要。

And so, I just think the principle in play here is you got to get the right name first.

所以，我认为这里的原则是你必须首先获得正确的名字。

And then if you can get the .com, sure, go ahead.

然后，如果您可以获得 .com，当然可以继续。

But if you can't, there's ways around that.

但如果你做不到，也有办法解决。

You can put a prefix in front of it or a little word in front of it or after it, or you go to .ai or something like that.

你可以在它前面放一个前缀，或者在它前面或后面放一个小单词，或者你转到 .ai 或类似的东西。

But the principle in play is let's get the right name first.

但玩游戏的原则是先取好名字。

David Placek: For those who really...

大卫·普拉塞克：对于那些真正...

And there are people who really get hung up on the .com, they tend to older by, the way.

有些人确实沉迷于 .com，顺便说一句，他们往往会变老。

And have, in their mind, sort of the hotness of the internet and having a .com, which did make a difference 25 years ago.

在他们看来，互联网的热度和 .com 确实在 25 年前带来了改变。

But it's 25 years now or 30, right?

但现在已经25年或30年了，对吧？

The good news is because they're less valuable, you can typically buy a URL if you negotiate the right way and have time for 15, 20, 25, $30,000.

好消息是，因为它们的价值较低，如果您以正确的方式进行谈判并且有时间，通常可以花费 15、20、25、30,000 美元购买 URL。

And we say, "Hey, if you can do that, have fun.

我们说：“嘿，如果你能做到的话，祝你玩得开心。

I'd put the $30,000 into market."

我会把这 3 万美元投入市场。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

That's reassuring.

这让人放心。

I imagine many founders are just like, "God dammit, there's no names available anymore." Let me zoom out and just ask you this question as a, maybe, a closing thought to our conversation.

我想很多创始人都会说，“该死的，已经没有名字了。”让我缩小范围，问你这个问题，也许是我们谈话的结束语。

Lenny Rachitsky: Say you were just in an elevator ride with someone, and I'm sure this happens to you of just like, "Hey, David, I got to come up with that name.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：假设你刚刚和某人一起乘坐电梯，我相信这种情况会发生在你身上，就像，“嘿，大卫，我必须想出这个名字。

What's your biggest tip for coming up with a great name?" What would your answer be?

想出一个好名字的最大秘诀是什么？”你的答案是什么？

David Placek: I'd go back to forget about the word, think about behavior and experience.

David Placek：我会回去忘记这个词，思考行为和经历。

And then the second thing from just a creative help, I'm a big believer in synchronicity.

然后，第二件事来自于创造性的帮助，我非常相信同步性。

And we try to force synchronicity here, and I'll give you a couple examples of that.

我们试图在这里强制同步，我会给你几个例子。

But this idea of connecting dots, two unrelated ideas together.

但这种将点、两个不相关的想法连接在一起的想法。

And so I'll say, "Look, if someone says we make sailboats and I'm trying to..." I'm here in Sausalito.

所以我会说，“听着，如果有人说我们制造帆船，而我正在努力……”我在索萨利托。

I guess, that's why I thought about that.

我想，这就是我这么想的原因。

And I am trying to create a new name for my company that builds sailboats.

我正在尝试为我的帆船制造公司起一个新名字。

David Placek: I would say forget about sailboats.

David Placek：我想说的是忘掉帆船吧。

I would go and pick out some magazines about hunting or flying magazines.

我会去挑选一些有关狩猎或飞行的杂志。

And I would just look through those, get a notepad out, and put out words that you like.

我会浏览这些内容，拿出记事本，写下你喜欢的文字。

Things, expressions that you like.

你喜欢的事物、表达方式。

And then that synchronicity, I said, "I would bet you $5 that out of those two magazines, you will get a word that you never would've thought of, but somehow it would relate to sailing."

然后，我说，“我敢跟你打赌 5 美元，从这两本杂志中，你会得到一个你从未想到过的词，但不知何故它与航海有关。”

Lenny Rachitsky: That connects very much to your story of how you have these different teams, and the teams that end up coming up with a winning name are the ones thinking about a very different version of that product.

Lenny Rachitsky：这与您如何拥有这些不同团队的故事密切相关，而最终提出获胜名称的团队正是考虑该产品的非常不同版本的团队。

Lenny Rachitsky: So interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太有趣了。

Okay.

好的。

David, this was everything I was hoping it'd be.

大卫，这就是我所希望的一切。

I feel like we're going to help so many people.

我觉得我们会帮助很多人。

Is there anything that we haven't covered or that you want to leave listeners with as a final nugget or piece of advice or story before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，还有什么我们没有涵盖的内容，或者您​​想留给听众作为最后的金块、建议或故事的内容吗？

David Placek: I'm going to emphasize one point, I think, which is that I really would like the listeners to really begin to think about how valuable a brand name can be.

David Placek：我想我要强调一点，那就是我真的希望听众真正开始思考一个品牌名称的价值有多大。

That you're not just looking for a word, you're looking for this experience.

你不只是在寻找一个词，你在寻找这种体验。

And if you get it right, not just a good name but the right name, the value is almost unlimited.

如果你选对了，不仅仅是一个好名字，而且是一个正确的名字，那么它的价值几乎是无限的。

And so give yourself some time, give yourself a budget, give yourself the right resources to do that.

因此，给自己一些时间，给自己一个预算，给自己适当的资源来做到这一点。

Second thing is we try to really be helpful here, and so I am always happy to talk to people about where they are in a process and if we can help, or just give them a little bit of advice.

第二件事是我们试图在这里真正提供帮助，所以我总是很乐意与人们谈论他们所处的过程，以及我们是否可以提供帮助，或者只是给他们一些建议。

And we schedule, we call them office hours here.

我们安排，我们在这里称之为办公时间。

We're judicious about it, but we are open to that.

我们对此很明智，但我们对此持开放态度。

It's just playing a long-term game, so I'd like to leave that with the viewers also.

这只是一场长期游戏，所以我也想把这个问题留给观众。

Lenny Rachitsky: We're about to book out your office hours.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们即将安排您的办公时间。

I love that offer.

我喜欢这个优惠。

I think a lot of people are going to take advantage of that.

我认为很多人都会利用这一点。

That is super cool.

那太酷了。

Lenny Rachitsky: David, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

Lenny Rachitsky：大卫，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got five questions for you.

我有五个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: There we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

What are 2 or 3 books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

您发现自己最向其他人推荐的 2 或 3 本书是什么？

David Placek: There's a book called Resilience, which was written by a former Navy SEAL that...

大卫·普拉克（David Placek）：有一本叫做《韧性》的书，是由一位前海豹突击队队员写的……

And it's not about combat, it's just a tiny bit about being a SEAL.

这与战斗无关，只是关于成为一名海豹突击队的一点点。

But it is about overcoming things and it's about tenacity.

但这是关于克服困难和坚韧的。

And I think everybody in the world, we all have challenges and things.

我认为世界上的每个人，我们都有挑战和事情。

And I do recommend that to people.

我确实向人们推荐这一点。

David Placek: Second book is Andrew Roberts latest book on Winston Churchill.

大卫·普莱斯克：第二本书是安德鲁·罗伯茨关于温斯顿·丘吉尔的最新书。

Winston Churchill is, really, one of my heroes.

温斯顿·丘吉尔确实是我的英雄之一。

He was one of the most unusual, provocative statesmen/politicians of the 20th century.

他是 20 世纪最不寻常、最具挑衅性的政治家/政治家之一。

And here's another person that talked about tenacity, and ups and downs, and stick with it.

还有一个人谈到了坚韧、起起落落以及坚持下去。

And so, I do like to recommend that.

所以，我确实想推荐这一点。

Some people just tipped their head and said, "Ah, I don't know." It seems like maybe a boring book, but those are two books that I .

有些人只是歪着头说：“啊，我不知道。”这看起来可能是一本无聊的书，但那是我读过的两本书。

Lenny Rachitsky: Who would ever say that Churchill's story is boring?

莱尼·拉奇茨基：谁会说丘吉尔的故事很无聊？

That's absurd.

这太荒谬了。

David Placek: I think so.

大卫·普拉塞克：我想是的。

I agree.

我同意。

I agree It's absurd, yes.

我同意这很荒谬，是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: He's so fascinating.

Lenny Rachitsky：他太迷人了。

There's a recent documentary, I think, that really showed me the character.

我想，最近有一部纪录片真正向我展示了这个角色。

Incredible.

极好的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

What's a recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

您最近真正喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

David Placek: For me, it's the Yellowstone series.

David Placek：对我来说，这是黄石系列。

We're very fortunate as a family, we have some property in Montana.

作为一个家庭，我们非常幸运，我们在蒙大拿州拥有一些财产。

And-

还有——

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，哇。

You're living the life.

你过着这样的生活。

David Placek: Yeah, very...

大卫·普拉塞克：是的，非常……

Listen, I can't tell you how fortunate I am.

听着，我无法告诉你我是多么幸运。

And I bought this property 28 years ago, so it was a lot cheaper then.

我28年前买了这套房子，所以当时便宜很多。

David Placek: In a snowstorm, and it just felt right.

David Placek：在暴风雪中，感觉很好。

But I think particularly the 1883, the precursor to Yellowstone.

但我认为特别是 1883 年，即黄石公园的前身。

Lenny Rachitsky: I was going to ask if you saw that because that was incredible.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想问你是否看到了，因为那太不可思议了。

David Placek: Yes.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的。

And then the after one, 1923, which is the post-war.

然后是后一个，1923 年，也就是战后。

1883 really gives people a sense of what it took by those early Americans to build a life in a place like...

1883 年确实让人们了解到早期美国人是如何在这样的地方建立生活的……

A beautiful place but a hard, tough place like Montana.

一个美丽的地方，但也是一个像蒙大拿州一样艰难的地方。

And it's just phenomenal.

这真是太神奇了。

The person producing and writing those things is incredibly talented.

制作和编写这些东西的人非常有才华。

Taylor Sheridan, I think, is his name.

我想，泰勒·谢里丹是他的名字。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that in the story, Montana was the easy route almost from the journey they want on.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢故事中的这一点，蒙大拿州几乎是他们想要的旅程的捷径。

David Placek: That's right.

大卫·普拉塞克：没错。

It's very, very true, yeah.

这是非常非常真实的，是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计。

Yeah, you almost don't even need to watch Yellowstone.

是的，你几乎不需要看黄石公园。

Just starting with 1883 totally works.

从 1883 开始就完全可以了。

David Placek: Yeah.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的。

In fact, I recommend people.

事实上，我推荐人们。

I say there's three.

我说有三个

But if you really want the truth about the American West, it's 1883.

但如果你真的想了解美国西部的真相，那是 1883 年了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I suggested that on this podcast a bunch, actually.

事实上，我在这个播客上建议了很多。

So, I love that.

所以，我喜欢这样。

That's where you went.

那就是你去的地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: Next question, do you have a favorite product that you have recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny Rachitsky：下一个问题，您最近发现自己真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品有吗？

Maybe one you named, maybe not.

也许是你提到的一个，也许不是。

David Placek: I didn't name it, although it's got a very good name to it.

David Placek：我没有给它命名，尽管它有一个非常好的名字。

Our whole family, I have two daughters and my wife, we're all fly fishermen, and last summer I really...

我们全家，我有两个女儿和我的妻子，我们都是飞钓者，去年夏天我真的......

I bought this for myself, but I gave it to my wife.

我给自己买了这个，但我把它给了我的妻子。

It was one of those things that was present for her, but I knew I was going to use it more.

这是为她准备的东西之一，但我知道我会更多地使用它。

And it's a Hardy.

这是一个哈迪。

It's an old British fly rod, but it's a beautiful rod.

这是一根古老的英国飞钓竿，但它是一根漂亮的钓竿。

It's just perfect for the big rivers of Montana.

它非常适合蒙大拿州的大河流。

So, that's my favorite purchase.

所以，这是我最喜欢的购买。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's the first fly-fishing rod of the podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是播客中的第一根飞钓竿。

Excellent choice.

绝佳的选择。

Lenny Rachitsky: Next question, do you have a favorite life motto that you often find yourself coming back to, sharing with friends or family?

Lenny Rachitsky：下一个问题，您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常与朋友或家人分享？

David Placek: I do.

大卫·普拉塞克：我愿意。

And it's a little longer, so I wrote it.

而且有点长，所以就写了。

I have it written here somewhere, but it's the quote from T.E.

我在某处写过它，但这是 T.E. 的引述。

Lawrence, Lawrence of Arabia, here.

劳伦斯，阿拉伯的劳伦斯，在这里。

And if I can find it, I should be.

如果我能找到它，我应该能找到。

I think it's a wonderful quote, so I think hopefully your viewers will like this.

我认为这是一个很棒的引言，所以我想希望你的观众会喜欢这个。

Here's what he said.

这是他说的。

He said that, "All men dream, but not equally.

他说：“所有人都梦想，但并不平等。

Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity, but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men for they may act on their dreams with open eyes to make them possible."

那些在夜晚在心灵深处做梦的人白天醒来时会发现那是虚荣，但白天的梦想家是危险的人，因为他们可能会睁开眼睛去实现他们的梦想，使之成为可能。”

David Placek: I read that years ago and it just hit me pretty hard, so yeah.

David Placek：我几年前读过这本书，这对我打击很大，所以是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is an amazing quote.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一句令人惊奇的引言。

It makes me think about the quote about the man in the arena.

这让我想起了关于竞技场上的那个人的名言。

David Placek: Yes.

大卫·普拉塞克：是的。

Yeah, it's same idea.

是的，是同样的想法。

It's just a little different.

只是有点不同。

And I also think Lawrence of Arabia is a fascinating person, what he did.

我还认为阿拉伯的劳伦斯是一个令人着迷的人，他所做的一切。

So, inspiring in some ways.

所以，在某些方面鼓舞人心。

An amazing movie.: Okay, final question.

一部精彩的电影。：好的，最后一个问题。

Let me just try this.

让我试试这个。

Is there a name that you didn't name that you're just like, "Wow, that was an amazing name.

有没有一个你没有说出的名字，你只是想，“哇，这真是一个了不起的名字。

I wish I had come up with that name"?

我希望这个名字是我想出来的”？

David Placek: I'll tell you there is one name, and it's DreamWorks.

David Placek：我告诉你有一个名字，那就是梦工厂。

I think it's a wonderful name, and it's somewhat ironic that the entertainment industry in general has pretty mundane names.

我认为这是一个很棒的名字，但有点讽刺的是，娱乐业通常都有相当平凡的名字。

You have all of these talented people.

你们拥有所有这些才华横溢的人。

And yet when you look at the names of production studios, movie houses, Comcast, things like that, it's very mundane.

然而，当你看到制作工作室、电影院、康卡斯特之类的名字时，你会发现它们非常平凡。

But here's DreamWorks, just like Sonos, check all the boxes.

但这里是梦工厂，就像 Sonos 一样，勾选所有选项。

Compound dream.

复梦。

You expect something great from DreamWorks.

您期待梦工厂带来一些伟大的东西。

They've created an experience, the experience of dreaming in a movie.

他们创造了一种体验，一种在电影中做梦的体验。

I think it's a wonderful name.

我认为这是一个很棒的名字。

I wish I'd done it.

我希望我已经做到了。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a cool answer.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很酷的答案。

David, thank you so much for doing this.

大卫，非常感谢你所做的一切。

This was incredible.

这太不可思议了。

I learned a ton as I imagined.

正如我想象的那样，我学到了很多东西。

I feel like a lot of people are going to have a much easier time thinking about approaching this topic.

我觉得很多人会更容易地思考处理这个话题。

David Placek: Well, I certainly hope so.

大卫·普拉塞克：嗯，我当然希望如此。

I do.

我愿意。

It's been very, very enjoyable, very thoughtful, and I have nothing but or respect for the way you do this and the talent that you have.

这是非常非常令人愉快、非常周到的，我除了尊重你做这件事的方式和你所拥有的才华之外，什么也没有。

So, very fortunate that we've come together.

所以，很幸运我们能走到一起。

And we live in the same place, so maybe we can get together for a cup of coffee or something.

而且我们住在同一个地方，所以也许我们可以聚在一起喝杯咖啡什么的。

Lenny Rachitsky: We do.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们愿意。

Northern California for the win.

北加州获胜。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Thank you so much for listening.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。