'The AI-native startup: 5 products, 7-figure revenue, 100% AI-written code. | Dan Shipper (Every)'

Lenny Rachitsky: The business you're building, the team you're building, the way you're operating is the very bleeding edge of how companies are trying to operate in this AI era.

Lenny Rachitsky：你正在建立的业务、你正在建立的团队、你的运营方式都是公司在这个人工智能时代如何运营的最前沿。

Dan Shipper: We have a head of AI operations.

Dan Shipper：我们有一位人工智能运营主管。

She's just constantly building prompts and building workflows that I and everyone else on the team are just automating as much as possible.

她只是不断地构建提示和构建工作流程，我和团队中的其他人都在尽可能地实现自动化。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are some things that you believe about AI that most people don't?

Lenny Rachitsky：关于人工智能，有哪些你相信但大多数人不相信的事情？

Dan Shipper: I hate the headlines that are like, "Entry-level jobs are taken away by AI." Whenever I see a kid with ChatGPT, I'm like, "Holy shit, they're going to go so much faster than any other person that I've worked with." We have this guy, he made a year's worth of progress in two months because every time I sat down with him and told him, "Okay, here's how you tell a story, here's how you think about a headline," he recorded all of it, put it into a prompt, and he never made the same mistake twice.

Dan Shipper：我讨厌“初级工作被人工智能夺走”之类的头条新闻。每当我看到一个使用 ChatGPT 的孩子时，我都会想，“天哪，他们会比我共事过的任何其他人都快得多。”我们有一个人，他在两个月内取得了一年的进步，因为每次我坐下来告诉他，“好吧，这就是你如何讲一个故事，这就是你如何思考一个标题，”他记录了所有这些，将其放入提示中，并且他从未犯过两次同样的错误。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's this sense we're getting to a place where you don't have to write any code, you have a product team not writing code at all.

Lenny Rachitsky：有一种感觉，我们正在进入一个不需要编写任何代码的地方，您的产品团队根本不编写代码。

Dan Shipper: No one is manually coding anymore.

Dan Shipper：没有人再手动编码了。

Organizations like ours, people who are playing at the edge, we're doing things that, in three years, everybody else is going to be doing.

像我们这样的组织，那些处于边缘的人，我们正在做的事情，在三年内，其他人都会做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Dan Shipper.

Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Dan Shipper。

Dan is the co-founder and CEO of Every, which is a company that is at the very bleeding edge of what is possible with AI.

Dan 是 Every 的联合创始人兼首席执行官，该公司处于人工智能的最前沿。

Their team of just 15 employees has built and shipped four different products.

他们的团队只有 15 名员工，已经制造并交付了四种不同的产品。

They publish a daily newsletter, and they have a consulting arm that helps companies adopt the latest AI best practices.

他们出版每日通讯，并拥有一个咨询部门，帮助公司采用最新的人工智能最佳实践。

On their product team, their engineers don't handwrite a single line of code and instead use an arsenal of agents who help them craft requirements and build their products.

在他们的产品团队中，工程师不会手写一行代码，而是使用大量代理来帮助他们制定需求并构建产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: Their editorial arm uses AI to publish better work faster, and they even have a person whose entire job is to help every employee at the company become more efficient using the latest AI workflows.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们的编辑部门使用人工智能更快地发布更好的作品，他们甚至有一个人的全部工作就是帮助公司的每位员工使用最新的人工智能工作流程提高效率。

In our conversation, Dan shares a bunch of tactics that they use internally to increase the leverage of their own employees, his personal AI tool stack, the one predictor that he's found for whether a company will successfully find huge productivity gains through AI, how he's building his company in a really unique way, a bunch of predictions for where AI is going, and so much more.

在我们的谈话中，Dan 分享了他们在内部使用的一系列策略，以提高自己员工的影响力，他的个人人工智能工具堆栈，他发现的一个预测公司是否会通过人工智能成功地找到巨大的生产力收益，他如何以一种真正独特的方式建立他的公司，一系列关于人工智能发展方向的预测，等等。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

And also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a bunch of amazing products for free for one year, including Superhuman, Linear, Notion, Perplexity, Bolt, Granola and more.

而且，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您可以在一年内免费获得一堆令人惊叹的产品，包括 Superhuman、Linear、Notion、Perplexity、Bolt、Granola 等。

Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click bundle.

请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。

With that, I bring you Dan Shipper.

接下来，我为您带来丹·希珀 (Dan Shipper)。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by CodeRabbit, the AI code review platform transforming how engineering teams ship faster with AI without sacrificing code quality.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 CodeRabbit 为您带来，CodeRabbit 是一个人工智能代码审查平台，它改变了工程团队在不牺牲代码质量的情况下更快地利用人工智能交付的方式。

Code reviews are critical, but time-consuming.

代码审查很重要，但也很耗时。

CodeRabbit acts as your AI copilot providing instant code review comments and potential impacts of every pull request.

CodeRabbit 充当您的人工智能副驾驶，提供即时代码审查评论和每个拉取请求的潜在影响。

Beyond just flagging issues, CodeRabbit provides one-click fix suggestions and lets you define custom code quality rules using ast-grep patterns, catching subtle issues that traditional static analysis tools might miss.

除了标记问题之外，CodeRabbit 还提供一键式修复建议，并允许您使用 ast-grep 模式定义自定义代码质量规则，捕获传统静态分析工具可能错过的细微问题。

CodeRabbit also provides free AI code reviews directly in the IDE.

CodeRabbit 还直接在 IDE 中提供免费的 AI 代码审查。

It's available in VS Code, Cursor and Windsurf.

它在 VS Code、Cursor 和 Windsurf 中可用。

Lenny Rachitsky: CodeRabbit has so far reviewed more than 10 million PRs, installed on one million repositories, and is used by over 70,000 open source projects.

Lenny Rachitsky：CodeRabbit 迄今为止已审查了超过 1000 万个 PR，安装在 100 万个存储库上，并被超过 70,000 个开源项目使用。

Get CodeRabbit for free for an entire year at coderabbit.ai using code Lenny.

使用代码 Lenny 在 coderabbit.ai 免费获取 CodeRabbit 一整年。

That's coderabbit.ai.

那是 coderabbit.ai。

Today's episode is brought to you by DX.

今天的节目是DX给大家带来的。

If you're an engineering leader or on a platform team, at some point, your CEO will inevitably ask you for productivity metrics.

如果您是工程领导者或平台团队成员，在某些时候，您的首席执行官将不可避免地要求您提供生产力指标。

Lenny Rachitsky: But measuring engineering organizations is hard, and we can all agree that simple metrics like the number of PRs or commits doesn't tell the full story.

Lenny Rachitsky：但是衡量工程组织是很困难的，我们都同意像 PR 或提交数量这样的简单指标并不能说明全部情况。

That's where DX comes in.

这就是 DX 发挥作用的地方。

DX is an engineering intelligence solution designed by leading researchers, including those behind the DORA and SPACE frameworks.

DX 是由领先研究人员设计的工程智能解决方案，其中包括 DORA 和 SPACE 框架背后的研究人员。

It combines quantitative data from developer tools with qualitative feedback from developers to give you a complete view of engineering productivity and the factors affecting it.

它将开发人员工具的定量数据与开发人员的定性反馈相结合，让您全面了解工程生产力及其影响因素。

Lenny Rachitsky: Learn why some of the world's most iconic companies like Etsy, Dropbox, Twilio, Vercel, and Webflow rely on DX.

Lenny Rachitsky：了解为什么 Etsy、Dropbox、Twilio、Vercel 和 Webflow 等一些世界上最具标志性的公司依赖 DX。

Visit DX's website at getdx.com/lenny.

请访问 DX 的网站 getdx.com/lenny。

Dan, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

丹，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Dan Shipper: Thank you for having me.

丹·希珀：谢谢你邀请我。

I've obviously been a huge fan for a long time and so it's an honor to be here.

显然我长期以来一直是它的忠实粉丝，所以很荣幸来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's my honor, Dan.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是我的荣幸，丹。

I feel like this is a podcast that was meant to be.

我觉得这就是一个注定的播客。

I'm so happy we're finally doing this.

我很高兴我们终于做到了这一点。

There's so damn much that I want to talk about; there's so damn much we can talk about.

我想说的事情实在是太多了；我们有太多可以谈论的事情了。

I thought it'd be fun to start with just some hot takes.

我认为从一些热门镜头开始会很有趣。

Lenny Rachitsky: And the reason I want to start here is I feel like you spend more time thinking about AI, building with AI, using AI, evaluating AI than anyone else I know nearly.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想从这里开始的原因是我觉得你比我认识的任何人都花更多的时间思考人工智能、用人工智能构建、使用人工智能、评估人工智能。

And so I really respect your insights and your perspectives on where things are going.

所以我真的很尊重你对事情发展的洞察力和观点。

So let me just ask you this question and see where this goes.

所以让我问你这个问题，看看会发生什么。

What are some things that you believe about AI using AI tools that most people don't believe?

关于使用人工智能工具的人工智能，您相信哪些事情是大多数人不相信的？

Dan Shipper: I'm going to go with my hottest take, and this is the take that I have the least evidence for.

Dan Shipper：我将选择我最热门的观点，这是我证据最少的观点。

So let's just start with that.

那么我们就从这个开始吧。

I have other more well-reasoned takes to give you, but this is my hottest one, which is I think that AI may be one of the biggest force for reshoring American jobs.

我还有其他更合理的观点可以给你们，但这是我最热门的观点，即我认为人工智能可能是美国就业岗位回流的最大力量之一。

And so I think everyone is worried about it unemploying people.

所以我认为每个人都担心失业。

And for sure, it will change the skills needed to do the jobs that you're doing, but I think it may actually reshore a lot of jobs, and it'll do that in two ways.

当然，它会改变你正在做的工作所需的技能，但我认为它实际上可能会重新安排很多工作，而且会通过两种方式做到这一点。

Dan Shipper: One is, there are a lot of expensive services that rich people and big companies are paid for right now, so in-house counsel or call center or whatever.

Dan Shipper：一是，现在有很多昂贵的服务是富人和大公司付费的，所以内部顾问或呼叫中心等等。

And what cheap intelligence does is it makes those kinds of things affordable for small companies and individuals.

廉价情报的作用是让小公司和个人买得起这些东西。

So it stimulates demand.

所以它刺激了需求。

The other thing that it does is it allows people who are in those jobs to serve more people cheaply.

它所做的另一件事是，它允许从事这些工作的人以低廉的成本为更多的人服务。

It may not get rid of customer service, for example, but it may allow 10 people in the Midwest, who would normally be working at a call center, to serve hundreds of thousands or millions of people.

例如，它可能不会取消客户服务，但它可能允许中西部的 10 名通常在呼叫中心工作的人员为数十万或数百万人提供服务。

Maybe that's too much, but a lot more people than they would ordinarily if they were the ones on the phone all the time.

也许这太多了，但如果他们一直打电话的话，人数会比平时多得多。

Dan Shipper: And so it becomes much more cost-effective for American companies to hire people in the US.

丹·希珀：因此，美国公司在美国雇用员工变得更具成本效益。

And I think the people in the US are going to be better, in a lot of cases, at using these AI tools to do work.

我认为在很多情况下，美国人会更好地使用这些人工智能工具来工作。

So I think it may actually make it more effective to have those jobs in the US run by people sitting in the US who are using it to get work done.

因此，我认为，让美国的人来管理这些工作，并利用这些工作来完成工作，实际上可能会更有效。

And also, the model companies are here too.

而且，模特公司也在这里。

So there's a lot of American stuff happening, and you can decide whether or not you think that's a good thing, but I think it's quite lost in the conversation over whether AI will get rid of jobs.

因此，美国发生了很多事情，你可以决定你是否认为这是一件好事，但我认为在人工智能是否会消除工作的对话中，人们完全迷失了。

Lenny Rachitsky: I like optimistic takes about AI, so this is great.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢对人工智能持乐观态度，所以这很棒。

And to your point, TBD if this is good for other countries, but good for the US.

就你的观点而言，这是否对其他国家有利，但对美国有利，尚待确定。

What else?

还有什么？

What else you got?

你还有什么？

What other hot takes?

还有哪些热点？

Dan Shipper: Okay.

丹·希珀：好的。

Another big hot take, and this is less contrarian and more just, I think, people are truly sleeping on it.

另一个热门观点，我认为，这不那么逆反，更公正，人们真的在睡觉。

I think people are truly sleeping on how good Claude Code is for non-coders.

我认为人们确实在沉迷于 Claude Code 对于非编码人员来说有多好。

And I'll extend this to not just Claude Code, but Google just came out with the Gemini CLI command-line interface.

我不仅将其扩展到 Claude Code，而且 Google 刚刚推出了 Gemini CLI 命令行界面。

So things like that.

诸如此类的事情。

And I'll tell you for people who are listening that don't know what Claude Code is.

我会告诉你那些不知道克劳德·科德是什么的听众。

Claude Code is just the command-line interface.

Claude Code 只是命令行界面。

It's those black terminals that programmers use.

这就是程序员使用的那些黑色终端。

It's a command-line interface that you can boot up.

这是一个可以启动的命令行界面。

It has access to your file system, it knows how to use any kind of terminal command and it knows how to browse the web, all that kind of stuff.

它可以访问您的文件系统，它知道如何使用任何类型的终端命令，它知道如何浏览网页，等等。

Dan Shipper: You can give it something to do and it will go off and it'll run for 20 or 30 minutes and complete a task autonomously, agentically.

Dan Shipper：你可以给它一些事情做，它就会启动并运行 20 或 30 分钟，并自主、代理地完成任务。

Especially with Claude Opus 4 that just came out, it's this gigantic leap forward in AI's ability to work by itself.

尤其是刚刚发布的 Claude Opus 4，这是人工智能独立工作能力的巨大飞跃。

And Claude Code can even spawn multiple sub-agents that do a bunch of tasks in parallel and it's incredibly useful for programmers.

Claude Code 甚至可以生成多个子代理来并行执行大量任务，这对于程序员来说非常有用。

Everybody inside of Every is using it all day, every day.

Every 内部的每个人每天都在使用它。

Everyone's agent-pilled.

每个人都被代理了。

They've got 15 agents doing all this kind of stuff.

他们有 15 名特工在做所有这些事情。

It's crazy.

太疯狂了。

Dan Shipper: But non-programmers don't use it because it's intimidating to use the terminal.

Dan Shipper：但是非程序员不会使用它，因为使用终端会让人感到害怕。

But for example, you can download all your meeting notes and put it in a folder and just be like, "Okay, I want you to read every single one of my meeting notes and tell me..." Something that I do, for example, is, "Tell me all the time that I subtly avoided conflict."

但是，例如，您可以下载所有会议记录并将其放入一个文件夹中，然后说：“好吧，我希望您阅读我的每一份会议记录并告诉我……”例如，我所做的事情是，“一直告诉我我巧妙地避免了冲突。”

Dan Shipper: And it writes a little to-do list for itself.

Dan Shipper：它为自己写了一个小待办事项列表。

It can have a little notebook, it can go and read each little thing and then write into its notebook, go down its to-do list and give you a summarized answer over multiple turns.

它可以有一个小笔记本，它可以阅读每一件小事，然后写入笔记本，记下待办事项列表，并在多次轮流中给你一个总结的答案。

So it's not just stuffing everything into context, which is what you'd be doing with ChatGPT chat or a regular Claude chat.

因此，这不仅仅是将所有内容都填充到上下文中，这就是您在 ChatGPT 聊天或常规 Claude 聊天中所做的事情。

It's actually processing every single file that you give it.

它实际上正在处理您提供给它的每个文件。

And so I think it's incredibly powerful for any kind of task that involves processing a lot of text.

因此，我认为它对于任何涉及处理大量文本的任务来说都非常强大。

Lenny Rachitsky: So as a simple way to think about this, you basically have an agent on your local computer that can read your local files and do your bidding.

Lenny Rachitsky：作为一个简单的思考方式，您的本地计算机上基本上有一个代理，可以读取您的本地文件并执行您的命令。

Dan Shipper: Yes, exactly.

丹·希珀：是的，完全正确。

And it can do that for long amounts of time without going off the rails.

而且它可以在很长一段时间内做到这一点而不会偏离轨道。

Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。

And so there's a small hurdle that non-technical people have to overcome, which is using their terminal and giving commands, but once they get it running, it's just you talk to it in English and ask it to do stuff.

因此，非技术人员必须克服一个小障碍，即使用终端并发出命令，但是一旦他们让它运行，您只需用英语与它交谈并要求它做一些事情即可。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the hot take here is just Claude Code, which most people think is for engineers, is the most underrated tool for non-technical people.

Lenny Rachitsky：这里最热门的就是 Claude Code，大多数人认为它是针对工程师的，但对于非技术人员来说是最被低估的工具。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are some other ways you imagine people seeing this?

Lenny Rachitsky：您想象人们会以什么其他方式看待这一点？

This meeting note example is really cool and I could see people using this.

这个会议记录示例非常酷，我可以看到人们使用它。

What else have you seen or thinking about?

您还看到或想到了什么？

Dan Shipper: Something that I've done a lot, so I'm a writer for a lot of my job.

Dan Shipper：我已经做了很多事情，所以我的很多工作都是作家。

And I know you're going to ask me about books I love, so I'm going to give you a sneak peek, which is I love War and Peace.

我知道你会问我我喜欢的书，所以我要给你先睹为快，那就是我喜欢《战争与和平》。

I just read it for the third time.

我刚刚读了第三遍。

Dan Shipper: It's so long, but it's so good.

Dan Shipper：虽然很长，但非常好。

I think Tolstoy is a brilliant writer.

我认为托尔斯泰是一位出色的作家。

And one thing that I wanted to do is I was like, "I want to inflect some of my writing with some of Tolstoy's style." And the way I did that is I think he's incredible at these little subtle sentences where he shows you what a character is thinking and feeling just by how they behave, how they move their face or the mismatch between the intonation in their voice and the expression in their eyes, all that kind of stuff.

我想做的一件事是，“我想用托尔斯泰的一些风格来改变我的一些写作。”我这样做的方式是，我认为他对这些微妙的小句子感到难以置信，他通过角色的行为方式、他们的面部表情、声音的语调和眼睛的表情之间的不匹配，向你展示了一个角色的想法和感受，所有这些东西。

He's just an incredible student of human behavior and psychology.

他是人类行为和心理学方面令人难以置信的学生。

Dan Shipper: And so I just downloaded War and Peace to my computer, which you can do because it's public domain.

Dan Shipper：所以我刚刚将《战争与和平》下载到我的计算机上，您可以这样做，因为它是公共领域。

And then I had Claude read the first three chapters of War and Peace and pull out all of those descriptions, and then make a guide for itself for how to do character descriptions like Tolstoy.

然后我让克劳德读了《战争与和平》的前三章，并拿出所有这些描述，然后为自己制作一个指南，指导如何像托尔斯泰那样进行人物描述。

And you could totally do this with a regular Opus command, but you couldn't put all of War and Peace into it.

你完全可以用常规的 Opus 命令来做到这一点，但你不能把《战争与和平》的全部内容都放进去。

It would take a lot more hand holding to get it to do this.

需要更多的帮助才能做到这一点。

And it just did this by itself without my really intervening.

它只是自己完成了这件事，没有我的真正干预。

Dan Shipper: I had it download a Russian version of War and Peace and the English version, and then start comparing different scenes that I love to tell me about things that I might've missed in the translations, so that you can get as deep and weird and nerdy for whatever subfield you care about as you want to.

Dan Shipper：我让它下载了《战争与和平》的俄语版本和英语版本，然后开始比较不同的场景，我喜欢告诉我一些我在翻译中可能错过的事情，这样你就可以按照你想要的方式对你关心的任何子领域进行深入、怪异和书呆子的了解。

Same thing for if you've got tons of customer interviews or tons of customer data you want to go through, it's incredibly powerful for going and figuring stuff out from big data sets like that.

同样的事情，如果你有大量的客户访谈或大量的客户数据你想浏览，它对于从这样的大数据集中找出东西来说是非常强大的。

Lenny Rachitsky: You actually inspired me to use...

Lenny Rachitsky：你实际上激励我使用......

This is not what you're describing, but it's also something that's very cool.

这不是你所描述的，但这也是非常酷的事情。

This is going to sound so nerdy.

这听起来很书呆子。

I'm reading Anna Karenina right now.

我现在正在读《安娜·卡列尼娜》。

Lenny Rachitsky: Also Tolstoy.

莱尼·拉契茨基：还有托尔斯泰。

And this is recommended by a previous podcast guest.

这是之前一位播客嘉宾推荐的。

And so I was like, "All right, I got to read this." Also very long.

所以我想，“好吧，我得读一下这个。”也很长。

I'm on my Kindle, I'm just like, "All right, 13% in, I've been reading for months."

我打开 Kindle，心里想，“好吧，13% 了，我已经读了好几个月了。”

Dan Shipper: Hot take, I think War and Peace is better than Anna Karenina, especially for a tech person.

Dan Shipper：热门观点，我认为《战争与和平》比《安娜·卡列尼娜》更好，尤其是对于技术人员而言。

But they're both good.

但他们都很好。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, there we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，我们开始吧。

There's my year.

这是我的一年。

I saw you tweet this use case that I love that I've been using, which is just while I'm reading, having ChatGPT voice sitting around and then just asking it questions.

我看到你在 Twitter 上发布了这个我喜欢的用例，我一直在使用它，就在我阅读的时候，ChatGPT 语音坐在周围，然后只是问它问题。

Because you don't actually have to feed it the book, it knows the whole book.

因为你实际上不必给它喂书，它知道整本书。

And Anthropic just shared this.

Anthropic 刚刚分享了这一点。

I don't know if they shared or someone found this in their legal briefings that they actually bought tons of books and scanned them themselves, is how they did fair use.

我不知道他们是否分享或有人在他们的法律简报中发现这一点，他们实际上购买了大量书籍并自己扫描，这就是他们如何合理使用的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so it has all this context.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以它有所有这些背景。

So just sitting there and asking it, "What the heck is this thing in Russian society?" is super fun.

所以就坐在那里问它：“俄罗斯社会里这到底是什么东西？”超级有趣。

Okay, so this is awesome.

好的，这太棒了。

So the tip here is just coming back to your hot take.

所以这里的提示只是回到你的热门观点。

The tip is you basically can have an agent using local files and doing all kinds of cool stuff on your computer versus having to upload it into projects or into your prompts and things like that.

提示是，您基本上可以让代理使用本地文件并在您的计算机上执行各种很酷的操作，而不必将其上传到项目或提示符等类似的操作中。

Super cool.

超级酷。

So the bet here is that people are going to discover this and start using this just day to day.

所以我们打赌人们会发现这一点并开始每天使用它。

Dan Shipper: I think they absolutely will.

Dan Shipper：我认为他们绝对会的。

And I also think probably the model companies are going to start making this more accessible.

我还认为模型公司可能会开始让这变得更容易理解。

I think one of the things that will just come from Claude Code and other things like it into everything else you use, whether it's on the web or wherever, is all of the original AI apps were pasting a chat box into an existing UI.

我认为 Claude Code 和其他类似的东西将出现在你使用的所有其他东西中，无论是在网络上还是在其他地方，其中一件事就是所有原始的人工智能应用程序都将聊天框粘贴到现有的 UI 中。

So you've got Copilot, it's got the auto-complete in the IDE.

现在您已经有了 Copilot，它在 IDE 中具有自动完成功能。

You've got Cursor, it's got a little sidebar with a little chat.

你有光标，它有一个带有一些聊天功能的小侧边栏。

And the difference with Claude Code is you never look at the code.

与 Claude Code 的不同之处在于你从不看代码。

It's not meant for coding, it's not meant for coding by hand.

它不适合编码，也不适合手动编码。

Dan Shipper: It's meant for you to say, "I want you to get something done," and it goes and does it.

Dan Shipper：它的意思是让你说，“我希望你完成某件事”，然后它就会去做。

And I think we're just getting to a point where for pretty much all the usual applications, AI is going to be good enough that we can get rid of the interfaces more or less where you're digging into all the things that it's actually doing and you're interleaved with its execution and you're more just like, "I'm delegating, it's going to go do it."

我认为我们已经到了这样一个阶段，对于几乎所有常见的应用程序来说，人工智能都将足够好，我们可以或多或少地摆脱界面，你可以深入研究它实际上正在做的所有事情，你可以与它的执行交错​​，你更像是，“我正在授权，它会去做它。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

I had Cursor's CEO, Michael Truell, on the podcast, and this is his big vision is, "What comes after code?"

Cursor 的首席执行官 Michael Truell 参加了我的播客，他的远大愿景是“代码之后会发生什么？”

Lenny Rachitsky: Exactly.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：确实如此。

Exactly.

确切地。

I also just had the founder of Base44 on the podcast who built this company, sold for 80 million bucks to Wix.

我刚刚在播客上看到 Base44 的创始人创建了这家公司，并以 8000 万美元的价格卖给了 Wix。

And he shared that he's been around for six months, the company.

他分享说他已经在这家公司工作了六个月了。

For the last three months, he hasn't touched a single line of front-end code, all Cursor and other tools he's using.

在过去的三个月里，他没有碰过一行前端代码，以及他使用的所有 Cursor 和其他工具。

So this is happening.

所以这正在发生。

Dan Shipper: Same thing for people inside of Every, no one is manually coding anymore.

Dan Shipper：对于 Every 内部的人来说也是如此，没有人再手动编码了。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Definitely need to talk about that.

绝对需要谈谈这个。

Before we do, any other hot takes that you want to throw out there?

在我们开始之前，您还想提出其他热门观点吗？

Dan Shipper: I have one other hot take, which is I have a definition for AGI.

Dan Shipper：我还有另外一个热门观点，那就是我对 AGI 有一个定义。

And so AGI is famously hard to define.

因此众所周知，AGI 很难定义。

What does it mean for it to be artificial general intelligence?

通用人工智能意味着什么？

The Turing test was one, but we'd pretty much blown past the Turing test in a lot of ways.

图灵测试就是其中之一，但我们在很多方面都远远超过了图灵测试。

So we have no good one.

所以我们没有好的。

And so what I have noticed is that you can tell how much better AI is getting by how long a leash you can give it to do work.

所以我注意到，你可以通过限制人工智能工作的时间长度来判断人工智能的进步程度。

Dan Shipper: So with Copilot, you can tab complete and that was the beginning.

Dan Shipper：因此，使用 Copilot，您可以按 Tab 键完成操作，这就是开始。

With ChatGPT, you ask it a question and it returns a response and that's maybe slightly better than a tab complete.

使用 ChatGPT，您向它提出问题，它会返回响应，这可能比选项卡完成稍好一些。

And then now with Claude Opus 4 and Gemini and all that kind of stuff, also with deep research, it can go off and work for 20 or 30 minutes.

现在有了 Claude Opus 4 和 Gemini 以及所有类似的东西，也经过深入研究，它可以启动并工作 20 或 30 分钟。

So that leash is getting longer where you have to intervene.

因此，在你必须干预的地方，皮带变得越来越长。

Dan Shipper: And I was thinking about this and it reminded me of Winnicott, who was a child psychologist.

丹·希珀：我在思考这个问题，这让我想起了温尼科特，他是一位儿童心理学家。

He wrote this book called Playing & Reality.

他写了一本名为《游戏与现实》的书。

And his conceptualization for what it means to become an adult, what it means to go from being an infant to a child to an adult is when you're first born, you're effectively fused with usually your mother, your caregiver.

他对成为成年人意味着什么、从婴儿到儿童再到成年人的概念化是，当你第一次出生时，你通常与你的母亲、你的照顾者有效地融合在一起。

There's no difference between you and her or you and whoever your caregiver is.

您和她或者您和您的照顾者之间没有区别。

Dan Shipper: And growing up is this process of being gradually let down in certain moments where you can handle being let down.

丹·希珀：成长就是在某些时刻逐渐感到失望的过程，在这些时刻你可以处理失望。

So you learn that there's a separation between you and your caregiver.

因此您了解到您和您的看护者之间存在分离。

So for infants, it's instead of being fused at the hip for every hour of every day, you get left alone.

因此，对于婴儿来说，你不是每天每个小时都在臀部融合，而是独自一人。

Maybe you get left alone to cry it out.

也许你会被留下独自哭泣。

Who knows if that's the right thing to do with infants?

谁知道这对婴儿来说是否正确？

A lot of consternation there.

那里有很多惊愕。

But that's teaching you that there's a separation between you and your mom or you and your dad.

但这告诉你，你和你妈妈或者你和你爸爸之间存在着分离。

There's not going to always be someone to pick you up.

不会总是有人来接你。

Dan Shipper: And raising a child is about knowing when they're ready to be let down a little bit and have to stand up on their own.

丹·希珀：养育孩子就是要知道他们什么时候准备好感到失望并必须自己站起来。

So I think there's that same leash with human development.

所以我认为人类发展也有同样的束缚。

You get longer and longer periods of time where you can be on your own.

你可以独处的时间越来越长。

So we're still in the 20 to 30 minutes is maybe...

所以我们可能还有 20 到 30 分钟的时间……

I don't know, you probably can't leave a toddler alone for 20 or 30 minutes, but it's a little bit older than a toddler.

我不知道，你可能不能让一个幼儿单独呆 20 或 30 分钟，但它比幼儿大一点。

Dan Shipper: With a toddler, you can be in the same room but not interacting with them every single second for 20 minutes sometimes.

Dan Shipper：对于蹒跚学步的孩子，你可以在同一个房间里，但有时不能在 20 分钟内每时每刻都与他们互动。

So it's around there.

所以它就在那里。

I think we have that similar leash with AGI.

我认为我们对 AGI 也有类似的约束。

And so I think a good definition of AGI is when does it become economically profitable for people to run agents indefinitely?

因此，我认为 AGI 的一个很好的定义是，人们何时可以无限期地运行代理来获得经济利益？

So it just never turns off.

所以它永远不会关闭。

It's a Claude Code that's always running, it's always doing something, you just never turn it off, and you don't need to because you know that it's worthwhile to keep it on.

这是一个始终在运行的克劳德代码，它总是在做一些事情，你只是永远不会关闭它，而且你也不需要这样做，因为你知道保持它打开是值得的。

Dan Shipper: It's never waiting for you to be like, "Okay, next thing." It'll always respond to you when you're like, "Okay, next thing." But it's off just essentially living its life like a teenager and that is profitable for you.

Dan Shipper：它永远不会等你说“好吧，下一步。”当你说“好吧，下一步”时，它总是会回应你。但它本质上只是像青少年一样生活，这对你来说是有利可图的。

You'd rather have it do that than just wait for you to tell it what to do next.

你宁愿让它这样做，也不愿等你告诉它下一步该做什么。

Dan Shipper: I think that's a good definition of AGI.

Dan Shipper：我认为这是 AGI 的一个很好的定义。

Lenny Rachitsky: The profitable piece is also just the cost of running that thing and having it.

Lenny Rachitsky：有利可图的部分也只是运行和拥有它的成本。

Dan Shipper: It's partly the cost and partly the value.

Dan Shipper：部分是成本，部分是价值。

And obviously, you can game this a little bit and be like, "Cool, I'm just going to tell Claude to run in a loop forever." But I'm talking about more than that, more widespread adoption of agents that work all the time.

显然，你可以玩一点游戏，然后说：“酷，我只是要告诉克劳德永远循环运行。”但我谈论的不仅仅是这些，更广泛地采用始终有效的代理。

And I like the profitable thing, because if it costs a little bit of money and the bar is profitability, it has to actually be doing something useful for you to keep it on.

我喜欢有利可图的事情，因为如果它花费一点钱并且盈利能力是标准，那么它必须实际上做一些对你有用的事情才能保持下去。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's interesting how the metaphor of a senior employee and autonomy and essentially the more autonomous they are, the less instruction you have to give, the less reviews you have to do, is also just directly correlated with how senior they are.

Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，高级员工和自主权的比喻，本质上他们越自主，你必须给予的指导越少，你必须做的评论就越少，也与他们的资历直接相关。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, great.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太好了。

Anything else along these lines?

还有其他类似的事情吗？

Dan Shipper: I have plenty of them.

丹·希珀：我有很多。

I hate the headlines that are like, "It's going to replace jobs," or "It's going to unemploy two thirds of the workforce." I don't think that's true.

我讨厌诸如“它将取代工作”或“它将导致三分之二的劳动力失业”之类的头条新闻。我不认为这是真的。

I hate headlines that are like, "You don't use your brain when you use ChatGPT," or another good headline is, "Doctors alone, doctors plus AI, or just AI, which one is better?

我讨厌这样的标题，“当你使用 ChatGPT 时，你没有使用你的大脑”，或者另一个好的标题是“单独的医生，医生加人工智能，或者只是人工智能，哪个更好？

AI is better, therefore, doctors are going to be outmoded."

人工智能更好，因此医生将会过时。”

Dan Shipper: All that stuff is, I think, pretty dumb.

Dan Shipper：我认为所有这些东西都很愚蠢。

So for the doctors plus AI example, I think it's important to recognize that using AI is a skill.

因此，对于医生加人工智能的例子，我认为重要的是要认识到使用人工智能是一种技能。

And so if you study doctors in a vacuum that don't really have a lot of experience with AI, you could probably create a situation such that it's better to just use an AI.

因此，如果你在真空中研究那些在人工智能方面没有太多经验的医生，你可能会创造一种情况，即最好只使用人工智能。

And sometimes it is going to be better.

有时它会更好。

But there's so many contexts that doctors need to make decisions and do things that it's really hard to take one study and make any conclusion about that.

但医生需要做出决定和做事情的情况如此之多，因此很难通过一项研究并就此得出任何结论。

Dan Shipper: And it's especially hard when you're dealing with a technology that's developing so rapidly that doctors can't really be expected to be experts at it yet.

Dan Shipper：当你处理的技术发展如此之快，以至于医生还不能真正成为该领域的专家时，这尤其困难。

But I would guess in five or 10 years, that will be totally and completely different.

但我猜五年或十年后，情况将会完全不同。

For the student example or the "AI turns your brain off" example, I think it's really important to understand that in the history of technology, it has always been the case that you give up certain skills in order to get other ones.

对于学生的例子或“人工智能让你的大脑关闭”的例子，我认为理解这一点非常重要：在技术史上，你总是会为了获得其他技能而放弃某些技能。

For example, Plato is famously very skeptical of writing because he thought it would harm your memory.

例如，众所周知，柏拉图对写作非常怀疑，因为他认为写作会损害你的记忆。

And it did.

确实如此。

We don't remember things quite as well as they did back in the day because they had to remember long epic poems to entertain each other.

我们记事的能力不如以前的他们，因为他们必须记住长篇史诗才能互相娱乐。

Dan Shipper: But I think writing is a worthwhile trade for having a slightly worse memory.

丹·希珀：但我认为，对于记忆力稍差的人来说，写作是一项值得的交易。

And I think something similar is going on with AI where you may be slightly less engaged in certain tasks, but if you use it right, you're going to be way more engaged in other tasks where you have much more power.

我认为人工智能也会发生类似的情况，你可能会稍微少参与某些任务，但如果你正确使用它，你会更多地参与其他你拥有更多权力的任务。

And so you can construct a study that says brain connectivity goes down when you use AI in the same way that you could construct a study that says people's memory are worse when they have writing skills.

因此，你可以构建一项研究，表明当你使用人工智能时，大脑连接性会下降，就像你可以构建一项研究，表明人们在拥有写作技能时记忆力会变差一样。

But I don't think anyone would want to go back to a world where no one was literate.

但我认为没有人愿意回到一个没有人识字的世界。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is super interesting.

Lenny Rachitsky：这非常有趣。

There's all these studies that are showing the benefits of AI to students with these studies in Nigeria and just how fast people progress.

所有这些研究都通过尼日利亚的这些研究向学生展示了人工智能的好处以及人们进步的速度。

So I think it's really important, this context you're sharing that you will lose some things, but the hope is the gain is much higher, and so far it seems like it will be.

所以我认为这非常重要，你所分享的这个背景你会失去一些东西，但希望收获会更高，到目前为止似乎会如此。

Dan Shipper: Yeah.

丹·希珀：是的。

I think people always, especially at the beginning of a tech hype cycle or a revolution paradigm shift, it's always easy to underestimate how quickly things are going to change.

我认为人们总是很容易低估事物变化的速度，尤其是在技术炒作周期或革命范式转变的开始阶段。

And the example I always use is, I live in Brooklyn and the tailor down the street from me doesn't accept credit cards.

我经常使用的例子是，我住在布鲁克林，我家附近的裁缝店不接受信用卡。

Credit cards have been around for a long time, so it takes a long time for technology like this to be adopted even in the best case.

信用卡已经存在很长时间了，因此即使在最好的情况下，这样的技术也需要很长时间才能被采用。

Dan Shipper: And I think it's really easy to underestimate how complex specific contexts are that humans know how to deal with.

丹·希珀：我认为人们很容易低估人类处理特定环境的复杂程度。

And just because you can get a really good score on a test...

仅仅因为你可以在考试中取得非常好的成绩......

It's incredible.

太不可思议了。

I love AI, it's so incredible, but it doesn't actually give you an intuition for how difficult it is to actually be replacing specific parts of work or activities that you would do.

我喜欢人工智能，它是如此令人难以置信，但它实际上并没有让你直观地了解真正取代你将要做的工作或活动的特定部分是多么困难。

I think a really good thing to give you maybe a little bit of an intuition for it is I built this thing over a weekend a month ago that was, "0.3, can it predict what I'm going to say in a meeting?"

我认为给你一点直觉的一件非常好的事情是我在一个月前的一个周末构建了这个东西，“0.3，它可以预测我在会议上要说什么吗？”

Dan Shipper: That's a benchmark.

Dan Shipper：这是一个基准。

It's the CEO benchmark.

这是首席执行官的基准。

And the reason I did that is because the gold standard for OpenAI for testing how powerful a model is, is they test it on their internal code base.

我这样做的原因是 OpenAI 测试模型强大程度的黄金标准是他们在内部代码库上进行测试。

So they say, "How good is the new model at predicting what comes next in our internal code base?" Because that's not anywhere out on the internet.

所以他们说，“新模型在预测我们内部代码库接下来会发生什么方面有多好？”因为这不在互联网上的任何地方。

So it's a really good benchmark for that.

所以这是一个非常好的基准。

And so I was like, "Well, my meeting transcripts aren't anywhere on the internet.

所以我想，“嗯，我的会议记录不在互联网上。

A lot of what I say is on the internet and there's some overlap, but it'd be interesting."

我说的很多都是在互联网上说的，有一些重叠，但这会很有趣。”

Dan Shipper: And so I ran a bunch of the frontier models on this, on just my Granola transcripts, and they're pretty bad.

Dan Shipper：所以我在这方面运行了一堆前沿模型，仅在我的格兰诺拉麦片成绩单上，它们非常糟糕。

They are pretty bad, and it's not because they're not smart.

他们很糟糕，但这并不是因为他们不聪明。

There's this real push now.

现在有真正的推动力。

Tobi from Spotify coined this term called "context engineering," which is getting the context to the model, the right context at the right time, is at least half the performance.

Spotify 的 Tobi 创造了“上下文工程”这个术语，即为模型获取上下文，在正确的时间提供正确的上下文，至少可以实现一半的性能。

Dan Shipper: And I think that's 100% true.

Dan Shipper：我认为这是 100% 正确的。

It's something that I've been writing about for three years.

这是我三年来一直在写的事情。

At the time, I called it knowledge orchestration.

当时我称之为知识编排。

I think context engineering is probably a better term.

我认为上下文工程可能是一个更好的术语。

But it's totally true, and that's a very, very hard problem to solve.

但这是完全正确的，这是一个非常非常难以解决的问题。

It's not just a one- shot problem where it's gigantic context window and we're done.

这不仅仅是一个一次性问题，它是一个巨大的上下文窗口，我们就完成了。

It's going...

事情正在...

Dan Shipper: ...

丹·希珀：...

that problem, where it's like gigantic context window and we're done.

这个问题，就像一个巨大的上下文窗口，我们就完成了。

I think it's going to get better over time, but the minute it gets good at predicting what I'm going to say next in a meeting, I'm just going to use it as a tool, and that's going to change the entire dynamic of what I say next in a meeting.

我认为随着时间的推移它会变得更好，但是一旦它擅长预测我接下来在会议中要说的话，我就会把它用作一种工具，这将改变我接下来在会议中所说的整个动态。

So it's not as easy as it seems.

所以这并不像看起来那么容易。

Lenny Rachitsky: Interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：有趣。

I imagine you can build a GPT from that.

我想你可以从中构建一个 GPT。

And then, instead of having a meeting with Dan now, just talk to this thing, and he'll make decisions.

然后，现在不用和丹开会，只要和这个东西谈谈，他就会做出决定。

Dan Shipper: Yes, definitely.

丹·希珀：是的，当然。

And I mean we do this a little bit.

我的意思是我们做了一点。

It's not the same as being able to predict exactly what I'm going to say in a meeting.

这与能够准确预测我在会议上要说的话不同。

But I think if you're a CEO, or founder, or manager, it's really stunning how much of your job is just repeating yourself.

但我认为，如果你是一名首席执行官、创始人或经理，你的工作中有多少只是重复自己，这真是令人震惊。

And that is one of the best things about this AI, particularly AI revolution, is that you don't have to repeat yourself.

关于人工智能，尤其是人工智能革命，最好的事情之一就是你不必重复自己。

Dan Shipper: And so we had it last quarter.

Dan Shipper：上个季度我们就做到了。

I tend to set one or two quarterly goals.

我倾向于设定一两个季度目标。

And one of my big goals for us last quarter was don't repeat yourself.

上个季度我给我们设定的最大目标之一就是不要重复自己。

So I don't want ever say the same thing in a meeting twice, if I can help it.

因此，如果可以的话，我不想在会议上说同样的话两次。

So for us, at Every, one of the big parts of Every is we have a daily newsletter.

因此，对于我们来说，Eve​​ry 的重要组成部分之一就是我们有一份每日时事通讯。

And I'm spending a lot of time giving feedback on headlines, or giving feedback on, "How do you write an intro," or "Is this idea any good," that kind of stuff.

我花了很多时间提供有关头条新闻的反馈，或者提供有关“你如何写介绍”或“这个想法好不好”之类的反馈。

Dan Shipper: And we've started to codify all of that into prompts that basically...

Dan Shipper：我们已经开始将所有这些编入提示中，基本上......

It's not the same as mimicking me.

这和模仿我不一样。

It can't exactly say exactly what I'm going to say in a meeting, but it pushes my taste out to the edge so that writers who are not able to talk to me, by the time I see it, they've already talked to some simulation of a simulation of me.

它不能准确地说出我在会议上要说的内容，但它把我的品味推到了边缘，这样那些无法与我交谈的作家，当我看到它时，他们已经和我的模拟对象进行了交谈。

And that's incredibly powerful.

这是非常强大的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's follow this thread.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们关注这个话题。

This is exactly where I want it to go.

这正是我想要它去的地方。

I feel like the business you're building, the team you're building, the way you're operating is the very bleeding edge of how companies will operate and are trying to operate in this AI era.

我觉得你正在建立的业务、你正在建立的团队、你的运营方式是公司在这个人工智能时代如何运营和正在尝试运营的最前沿。

You guys are trying to be super AI-first.

你们正在努力成为超级人工智能第一。

And it's super aligned with just so much of your writing.

而且它与你的大部分写作都非常吻合。

There's just so much reason to study what you guys are doing.

有太多理由去研究你们正在做的事情。

So-

所以——

Lenny Rachitsky: Yes.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

And this is benefiting all of us, so thank you.

这对我们所有人都有好处，所以谢谢。

So first of all, just tell people what the heck Every is, and then share a few insights into just how you operate.

因此，首先，告诉人们 Every 到底是什么，然后分享一些关于您如何运作的见解。

It's funny that you laugh at whatever you say.

有趣的是你无论说什么都会笑。

Dan Shipper: Everyone asks that because it's a very weird shape of a company.

Dan Shipper：每个人都会问这个问题，因为这是一家非常奇怪的公司。

You can actually see other companies that have this shape from earlier eras, but it's less common.

实际上，您可以在早期看到其他具有这种形状的公司，但这种情况不太常见。

It doesn't make as much sense.

这没有多大意义。

Dan Shipper: And I think it's newly enabled by AI, and we can talk about why.

Dan Shipper：我认为这是人工智能新启用的，我们可以谈谈原因。

But the way that I typically talk about Every is we do ideas and apps at the edge of AI.

但我通常谈论 Every 的方式是我们在人工智能边缘提出想法和应用程序。

So the core of the business is we have a daily newsletter.

所以业务的核心是我们有一份每日时事通讯。

We've been doing it for about five years.

我们已经这样做了大约五年。

We have about 100,000 subscribers.

我们有大约 100,000 名订阅者。

All of the people from the top AI labs read us.

所有来自顶级人工智能实验室的人都读过我们的文章。

Anyone who's basically interested in or working in AI at the frontier and wants to know what's on reads us.

任何对人工智能前沿领域感兴趣或工作并想了解最新动态的人都会阅读我们的文章。

Dan Shipper: We do a lot of...

丹·希珀：我们做了很多……

For example, whenever OpenAI or Anthropic drop a new model, we get our hands on it early, and then we get to play with it and write about it, which it's my ideal job.

例如，每当 OpenAI 或 Anthropic 发布一个新模型时，我们都会尽早掌握它，然后我们就可以使用它并撰写它，这是我理想的工作。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

It's the best.

这是最好的。

Dan Shipper: I don't if I can curse on this podcast, but-

Dan Shipper：我不知道我是否可以在这个播客上咒骂，但是-

Lenny Rachitsky: Perfect.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：完美。

Excellent use.

很好用。

And you call those "vibe checks", is that the-

你称之为“氛围检查”，是-

Dan Shipper: Yeah, we call them vibe checks-

Dan Shipper：是的，我们称之为氛围检查 -

Dan Shipper: ...

丹·希珀：...

which I think is really important because...

我认为这非常重要，因为......

And this gets to the next part, the apps part of what we do.

这就是下一部分，我们所做的应用程序部分。

I think it's really important to do vibe checks and to call them vibe checks because they're about how does it feel to use this thing and how does it feel to use it for work for things that you would normally use it for in your job or in your life.

我认为进行氛围检查并称其为氛围检查非常重要，因为它们是关于使用这个东西的感觉如何，以及将它用于工作或您通常在工作或生活中使用它的事情感觉如何。

Because I think that captures something that standard benchmarks just don't capture and really can't.

因为我认为这捕获了标准基准测试无法捕获并且实际上无法捕获的东西。

And the best people to tell...

和最好的人告诉...

to write a vibe check are people that are actually at the edge using it for stuff.

写一份氛围检查的人实际上处于使用它做事的边缘。

Dan Shipper: And so what we've found over time is we have...

Dan Shipper：随着时间的推移，我们发现我们......

We love, we think the best writing and content about technology is from people that are actually using it and building with it.

我们喜欢，我们认为关于技术的最好的写作和内容来自于实际使用它并用它进行构建的人们。

And so we've always had this sort of function, where we're always building little experiments in addition to our writing, and that helps us write great stuff.

所以我们一直都有这种功能，除了写作之外，我们总是进行一些小实验，这有助于我们写出很棒的东西。

And that has turned into a suite of apps that we run internally.

这已经变成了我们内部运行的一套应用程序。

And the people who are building those apps are also writers, and they're contributing to things like vibe checks.

构建这些应用程序的人也是作家，他们为氛围检查等事情做出了贡献。

Dan Shipper: So you get a really inside look into how is this stuff being built from people who are actually using it every day.

Dan Shipper：因此，您可以真正了解每天实际使用它的人们是如何构建这些东西的。

And the suite of apps that we have, one's called Cora.

我们拥有一套应用程序，名为 Cora。

We just launched Cora publicly on the day that we're recording this, which is really awesome.

我们在录制此视频的当天刚刚公开发布了 Cora，这真的很棒。

Dan Shipper: Thank you.

丹·希珀：谢谢。

You can think of it like a chief of staff, an AI chief of staff for your email.

你可以把它想象成一个参谋长，一个负责你电子邮件的人工智能参谋长。

It helps you manage your email with AI.

它可以帮助您使用人工智能管理电子邮件。

It's very cool.

非常酷。

We can go into more of it later.

我们稍后可以详细讨论。

We have another one called Sparkle, which is an AI file cleaner.

我们还有另一个名为 Sparkle 的产品，它是一款 AI 文件清理器。

We have another one called Spiral that does content automation with AI.

我们还有另一个名为 Spiral 的项目，它利用人工智能进行内容自动化。

We originally incubated Lex, which is an AI document writer, which we spun out into its own company, and my Every co-founder runs that.

我们最初孵化了 Lex，它是一家人工智能文档编写器，后来我们将其拆分成自己的公司，由我的 Every 联合创始人运营。

Dan Shipper: And basically we bundle everything together.

Dan Shipper：基本上我们将所有东西捆绑在一起。

So you pay one price, and you get access to all of the software that we make, and we're constantly putting new stuff in the bundle.

因此，您只需支付一个价格，就可以访问我们制作的所有软件，并且我们不断在捆绑包中添加新内容。

And I can tell you more about what kinds of things do we like to incubate and how do we like to incubate it because I think there's some really interesting, special things in there.

我可以告诉你更多关于我们喜欢孵化什么样的东西以及我们喜欢如何孵化它，因为我认为里面有一些非常有趣、特别的东西。

Dan Shipper: But I've been blabbering for a while, so I'll stop there.

Dan Shipper：但是我已经胡言乱语了一段时间了，所以我就到此为止吧。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's also a consulting firm, which I want to talk about, but let's hold off on that.

Lenny Rachitsky：还有一家咨询公司，我想谈谈它，但我们先等等吧。

Dan Shipper: We also do that, and that's the third leg of the stool in the business.

Dan Shipper：我们也这样做，这是这个行业的第三条腿。

It doesn't fit quite as nicely into my ideas in app streaming, but we spend a lot of time with big companies, where we teach them basically how to be AI-first.

它不太符合我在应用程序流媒体方面的想法，但我们花了很多时间与大公司合作，我们基本上教他们如何成为人工智能优先。

We train all the people on how to use AI.

我们对所有人进行如何使用人工智能的培训。

And it's very cool, it's really fun, and a very important part of what we do.

这非常酷，非常有趣，并且是我们工作中非常重要的一部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: That feels like a billion-dollar business right there.

Lenny Rachitsky：这感觉就像是一项价值十亿美元的生意。

I want to come back to it.

我想回到这个话题。

Because everybody wants to learn this.: Okay, so share a few ways that you guys operate.

因为每个人都想学这个。：好吧，那么分享一下你们的一些操作方法。

You mentioned that your team doesn't write any code.

您提到您的团队不编写任何代码。

What are just some ways that allow you to operate this efficiently?

有哪些方法可以让您有效地进行操作？

I know your team's really small.

我知道你们的团队很小。

You have a daily newsletter, you have three, four products, you have a consulting arm.

你有一份每日时事通讯，你有三、四种产品，你有一个咨询部门。

How big is the team at Every?

Every 的团队有多大？

Lenny Rachitsky: So just give us insight into some of the ways you operate that are at the bleeding edge.

Lenny Rachitsky：请让我们深入了解你们最前沿的一些运营方式。

Dan Shipper: Okay, so a couple of things.

Dan Shipper：好的，有几件事。

One, and I think everyone should do this, is we have a head of AI operations.

第一，我认为每个人都应该这样做，我们有一位人工智能运营主管。

I sit with her once a week.

我每周和她坐在一起一次。

And every time I'm doing something repetitively, we put it in a to-do list.

每次我重复做某件事时，我们都会将其放入待办事项列表中。

And she's just constantly building prompts, and building workflows, and stuff like that so that I and everyone else on the team are just automating as much as possible.

她只是不断地构建提示、构建工作流程以及类似的东西，以便我和团队中的其他人都尽可能实现自动化。

And I think that has been a big unlock because it's really hard to...

我认为这是一个很大的解锁，因为真的很难......

Dan Shipper: If you're working in a job all day, you're fighting fires, and you're like, "Okay, am I going to do this in the way that I know how or am I going to do it in the new way that might not work?" I don't want to spend a bunch of time you're building some no-code automation.

丹·希珀（Dan Shipper）：如果你整天都在工作，你就是在救火，你会想，“好吧，我是要按照我知道的方式来做这件事，还是要以可能行不通的新方式来做？”我不想花费大量时间来构建一些无代码自动化。

I don't want to do that.

我不想那样做。

And having an AI operations lead lets you basically identify those things and have them solved without people who are doing the work actually having to take time to do it, which I think makes it much more likely it happens.

拥有人工智能运营主管可以让你基本上识别这些事情并解决它们，而无需从事这项工作的人实际上需要花时间来做这件事，我认为这使得它更有可能发生。

Dan Shipper: There's always a trick with that, where it's like you have to make sure it gets used.

Dan Shipper：这总是有一个技巧，就像你必须确保它被使用一样。

So it's basically you're developing little applications internally, but if you're good at making applications people use, it's great.

所以基本上你是在内部开发小应用程序，但如果你擅长制作人们使用的应用程序，那就太好了。

Highly recommend having an AI operations lead.

强烈建议聘请人工智能运营主管。

Lenny Rachitsky: I imagine you saw the Quora tweeted about this, wanting to hire exactly this sort of person.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想你看到了 Quora 上关于此事的推文，想雇用这样的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: So the idea is your point that this needs to be somebody who's outside of the day-to-day work of the company, and is specifically focused on helping the team be more efficient with AI?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以你的观点是，这个人需要是公司日常工作之外的人，并且专门致力于帮助团队通过人工智能提高效率？

Lenny Rachitsky: And then is this person mostly just you automating you, or can they help other people?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么这个人主要是让你自动化，还是他们可以帮助其他人？

Are they helpful-

他们有帮助吗-

Dan Shipper: No, she helps everyone, basically.

丹·希珀：不，她基本上帮助每个人。

Dan Shipper: Where we're starting right now is with the editorial operation.

Dan Shipper：我们现在开始的是编辑操作。

So there's so much stuff in the editorial operation, where I or our editor in chief, Kate...

因此，编辑工作中有很多事情，我或我们的主编凯特……

Kate, is constantly doing little, small copy edits to make sure everything is in Every style, and it takes hours a day.

凯特不断地进行微小的文案编辑，以确保一切都符合每种风格，而且每天需要几个小时。

And so now Opus is at a point where you can give it a style guide and a prompt, and it will go through anything you're writing, and copy edit it, which is amazing.

所以现在 Opus 已经到了这样的程度，你可以给它一个风格指南和提示，它会检查你正在写的任何内容，并对其进行复制编辑，这真是太神奇了。

Dan Shipper: The trick is it's not just building that.

Dan Shipper：诀窍在于它不仅仅是构建它。

You also have to get Kate to be like, "Did you put this through the prompt yet," anytime someone gives her something.

每当有人给凯特一些东西时，你还必须让凯特说：“你通过提示了吗？”

So there's a little bit of behavioral update too that has to happen, which I think is a really interesting organizational challenge.

因此，还必须进行一些行为更新，我认为这是一个非常有趣的组织挑战。

Dan Shipper: And I think for us it's a little easier because everybody inside the org is very AI-first and just wants to go do it.

Dan Shipper：我认为对我们来说这更容易一些，因为组织内部的每个人都非常重视人工智能，并且只想去做。

We don't have anyone really who's like, "I don't know.

我们没有人真正会说：“我不知道。

I don't really want to do this." And that's a whole different challenge, which I think a lot of organizations face, but there's always a problem of getting people to use it.

我真的不想这样做。”这是一个完全不同的挑战，我认为很多组织都面临着这个挑战，但总是存在一个让人们使用它的问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is super cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：那太酷了。

What is her background, this AI operations person?

这个AI运营者，她到底是什么来头？

Dan Shipper: Her name is Katie Parrott.

丹·希珀：她的名字是凯蒂·帕罗特。

She actually does a lot of ghostwriting for us.

她实际上为我们代笔了很多。

So she also, when people inside of Every who are builders...

所以她也是，当每个人里面的人都是建设者时......

Often they just write themselves, but sometimes they want help, and she'll help them write about whatever they're working on.

通常他们只是自己写，但有时他们需要帮助，她会帮助他们写下他们正在做的任何事情。

So that's how she started with us.

这就是她和我们一起开始的方式。

She still does that, but she also spends a lot of time doing the AI operation stuff.

她仍然这样做，但她也花了很多时间做人工智能操作的事情。

Dan Shipper: And then before that, she worked at Animalz, which is a content marketing agency, one of the top content marketing agencies.

Dan Shipper：在此之前，她在 Animalz 工作，这是一家内容营销机构，是顶级内容营销机构之一。

And they're very process oriented.

而且他们非常注重流程。

And I think the reason Katie is so good is because she's incredibly good at that kind of process stuff or thinking about that, but she's also a great writer and she's also just incredibly excited about AI.

我认为凯蒂如此出色的原因是因为她非常擅长处理此类问题或思考此类问题，但她也是一位出色的作家，而且她对人工智能也非常兴奋。

She just wants to tinker and wants to use it.

她只是想修补并想使用它。

And that was the thing that got me to be like, "Okay, you should just come and do that.

这就是让我觉得，“好吧，你应该过来这样做。

Instead of just ghostwriting, we should add this to your plate." And it's been really fantastic.

我们不应该只是代笔，而应该把它添加到你的盘子里。”这真的太棒了。

Dan Shipper: At minimum, you really just want someone who's just like, "I want to tinker.

Dan Shipper：至少，你真的只想要一个这样的人，“我想修补。

I want to build stuff." There's also people who have a little bit more of that process orientation.

我想建造一些东西。”也有人有更多的过程导向。

I think that is important.

我认为这很重要。

And to the extent they understand the craft of the thing that they're trying to build for, that also helps a lot.

在某种程度上，他们了解他们正在努力构建的东西的工艺，这也有很大帮助。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is an amazing tip.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很棒的建议。

I feel like everyone's going to start hiring these people.

我觉得每个人都会开始雇用这些人。

Dan Shipper: I think so.

丹·希珀：我想是的。

There's a couple other people who talk about this.

还有其他几个人也在谈论这个问题。

I heard Rachel Woods, who's another...

我听说雷切尔·伍兹，她是另一个……

She thinks a lot of AI stuff.

她思考了很多人工智能的东西。

She's talking about it.

她正在谈论这件事。

I think it's becoming a thing, and I think it's really important, and it just bleeds out into every other part of the org.

我认为它正在成为一件事，而且我认为它非常重要，并且它会渗透到组织的每个其他部分。

Dan Shipper: So we're doing this inside of the editorial org, but there's a lot of copy that goes out on Cora.

Dan Shipper：所以我们是在编辑组织内部做这件事，但是 Cora 上有很多文案。

And by the way, Cora is spelled C-O-R-A, so it's different from Q-U-O-R-A, slightly confusing.

顺便说一下，Cora 的拼写是 C-O-R-A，所以它与 Q-U-O-R-A 不同，有点令人困惑。

There's a lot of copy that goes out on Cora, or Spiral, or Sparkle that we want to have that same Every quality bar for.

Cora、Spiral 或 Sparkle 上有很多副本，我们希望拥有相同的 Every 质量栏。

And so we have engineers sending Kate, like, "Here's the Figma file.

因此，我们有工程师向 Kate 发送信息，比如“这是 Figma 文件。

Can you go and do copy edits?" And that sucks for everybody.

你能去进行文案编辑吗？”这对每个人来说都很糟糕。

And Kate is one person, and it's just really hard to do that.

凯特是一个人，要做到这一点真的很难。

Dan Shipper: So one thing that we did, Nityesh, who's one of the engineers on Cora, built a Claude Code command that just uses that prompt, and checks through the entire code base for all the copy edits, and then creates a pull request on GitHub, and then sends the pull request to Kate.

Dan Shipper：我们做了一件事，Nityesh（Cora 的工程师之一）构建了一个 Claude Code 命令，该命令仅使用该提示，并检查整个代码库中的所有副本编辑，然后在 GitHub 上创建拉取请求，然后将拉取请求发送给 Kate。

So she's just looking at the pull request, and being like, "Does this make sense?"

所以她只是看着拉取请求，然后想，“这有意义吗？”

Dan Shipper: And so you can translate that prompt into, for example, a format that engineers can use.

Dan Shipper：因此您可以将该提示转换为工程师可以使用的格式。

And suddenly your engineering team is writing marketing copy in the style you want.

突然间，您的工程团队正在按照您想要的风格编写营销文案。

I think that's so cool.

我觉得那太酷了。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is extremely cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：这非常酷。

I'm going to take us on a little tangent.

我要稍微偏离一下方向。

You keep mentioning-

你不断提到——

Lenny Rachitsky: ...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：……

Claude, and I'm curious just what is in the stack of tools that you find yourself using, your team ends up using.

克劳德，我很好奇您发现自己使用的工具堆栈中有哪些，您的团队最终使用了哪些工具。

It seems like Claude is a core part of it.

看来克劳德是其中的核心部分。

Dan Shipper: I do love Claude.

丹·希珀：我确实爱克劳德。

I would say I'm generally...

我想说我一般...

My first thing that I open is o3.

我打开的第一件事是o3。

I'm a ChatGPT boy.

我是 ChatGPT 男孩。

And I think o3 is super high quality.

我认为o3 的品质非常高。

I think it's great for writing, it's great for coding, it's great for all that stuff.

我认为它非常适合写作，非常适合编码，非常适合所有这些东西。

And what it has that really makes a difference still from Claude is it has memory.

它与克劳德真正不同的是它有记忆。

And I just love that.

我就是喜欢这样。

I've spent so much time yelling at ChatGPT about, "I need my writing to be punchy and concise." And it just knows that now.

我花了很多时间在 ChatGPT 上大喊“我需要我的写作有力而简洁”。它现在才知道这一点。

Dan Shipper: So I think when I ask it to write something for me, it's actually better than yours.

Dan Shipper：所以我认为当我要求它为我写一些东西时，它实际上比你的更好。

Or maybe not yours, but your average ChatGPT user.

或者也许不是您的，而是您的普通 ChatGPT 用户。

And I also find I use it a lot for self-reflection and personal growth type stuff.

我还发现我经常用它来进行自我反思和个人成长类型的事情。

So it knows me.

所以它认识我。

So when I send it a meeting transcript, and I'm like, "How did I do?" It's like, "Well, you did that thing that you normally do, but you're way better on this other thing." And I like that.

因此，当我向其发送会议记录时，我会想，“我做得怎么样？”就像，“好吧，你做了你通常做的那件事，但你在另一件事上做得更好。”我喜欢这样。

I think that's really great.

我认为这真的很棒。

So day-to-day, o3, that's my go-to.

所以每天，o3，这就是我的首选。

Dan Shipper: I think Claude Opus is...

丹·希珀：我认为克劳德·奥普斯是……

First of all, Claude Code, everyone inside Every, that's basically what we use.

首先，Claude Code，Every 里面的每个人，这基本上就是我们使用的。

If you're building something, you're using Claude Code.

如果您正在构建某些东西，那么您正在使用克劳德代码。

It's crazy.

太疯狂了。

It's so good.

太好了。

Dan Shipper: Gemini just came out with something, so I'm very excited to try that because I think that's the model that we use most for the apps that we build, inside the apps.

Dan Shipper：Gemini 刚刚推出了一些产品，所以我很高兴尝试这一点，因为我认为这是我们在应用程序内部构建的应用程序中最常用的模型。

It's incredibly powerful and it's incredibly cheap, which is great.

它的功能非常强大，而且价格非常便宜，这真是太棒了。

So I want to try the CLI tool that they came out with.

所以我想尝试一下他们推出的 CLI 工具。

Dan Shipper: We also use Codex a bit, which is OpenAI's coding tool.

Dan Shipper：我们也使用了一点 Codex，这是 OpenAI 的编码工具。

And that's for, like, "I want a one-off, self-contained...

那是为了，比如，“我想要一个一次性的、独立的......

I want to pick off this little feature."

我想摘掉这个小功能。”

Dan Shipper: What else do I use?

Dan Shipper：我还用什么？

Going back to Claude, Claude Opus 4 can do something that no other model, except one other model that I can't talk about...

回到 Claude，Claude Opus 4 可以做到其他型号无法做到的事情，除了另一个我无法谈论的型号......

can do something that no-

可以做一些不-

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, we won't go there.

Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，我们不会去那里。

We don't want to get you in trouble.

我们不想给您带来麻烦。

Okay, go on.

好吧，继续吧。

Dan Shipper: But yeah, no other model can do this.

Dan Shipper：但是，没有其他模型可以做到这一点。

Which is earlier versions of Claude, and I think generally versions of other models, when you ask them, "Is this piece of writing any good," Claude, for example, would always give it a B+.

这是克劳德的早期版本，我认为通常是其他模型的版本，当你问他们“这篇文章有什么好处吗？”例如，克劳德总是会给它一个 B+。

And then if you did another turn of the same conversation, you're like, "I updated this," it would always go to A-.

然后，如果你再进行一次相同的对话，你会说，“我更新了这个”，它总是会转到 A-。

And then if you give it another turn, it would go to A.

然后如果你再转一圈，它就会转到A。

Dan Shipper: So it doesn't have the same kind of gut.

Dan Shipper：所以它没有同样的直觉。

It's thinking about what you probably want hear too much.

它对你可能想听的事情想得太多了。

And there's various methods that you can use to prompt engineer around this, like give it a template or whatever.

您可以使用多种方法来提示工程师解决此问题，例如为其提供模板等。

And they sort of worked, but it just still doesn't have that thing where it's like, "Can it tell if writing is interesting or any good?

它们确实有效，但仍然没有这样的东西，“它能判断写作是否有趣或有什么好处吗？

Does it have that gut sense?" And Opus 4 has it.

有这种直觉吗？” Opus 4 有它。

It's really wild.

真的很狂野。

And I think that's super important because it opens up all these use cases where you might want to use a language model as a judge.

我认为这非常重要，因为它打开了所有这些用例，您可能希望使用语言模型作为判断。

So for us, for example, we're working on a new version of our product Spiral, which does content automation.

例如，对于我们来说，我们正在开发产品 Spiral 的新版本，它可以实现内容自动化。

You've used that in the past.

你过去用过它。

And we're doing essentially Claude Code, but for content style product, where you say, "I want it to write a tweet," you give it all the documents, it has a bunch of memories, it creates a to-do list for itself, and then it goes and writes.

我们本质上是在做克劳德代码，但对于内容风格的产品，你说，“我想让它写一条推文”，你给它所有的文档，它有一堆记忆，它为自己创建一个待办事项列表，然后它就开始写。

Dan Shipper: And one of the things that is so interesting is now, because it can judge things, part of its to-do list is, "Okay, I wrote three tweets.

Dan Shipper：现在非常有趣的事情之一是，因为它可以判断事物，其待办事项列表的一部分是，“好吧，我写了三条推文。

I'm going to judge whether I think these are any good," and then it can improve before it comes back to you.

我会判断我认为这些是否有好处，”然后在反馈给你之前它可以得到改进。

Dan Shipper: And that's just a huge, huge unlock, that we were struggling for three months to build this crazy system to try to get it to judge writing.

Dan Shipper：这只是一个巨大的解锁，我们花了三个月的时间努力构建这个疯狂的系统，试图让它来评判写作。

And then Opus 4, just one-shotted it, and we're like, "Great, this product works.

然后是 Opus 4，一拍即合，我们就说，“太棒了，这个产品很管用。

Let's start chipping it." So yeah, I love it for that.

让我们开始削它吧。”所以是的，我喜欢它。

Lenny Rachitsky: Are there any other AI tools that you just use regularly?

Lenny Rachitsky：还有其他您经常使用的人工智能工具吗？

You mentioned Granola, even outside of the bottles.

你提到了格兰诺拉麦片，甚至是在瓶子外面。

So what are some that you think maybe people are sleeping on?

那么您认为人们可能睡在哪些东西上呢？

Dan Shipper: I use Granola.

丹·希珀：我用格兰诺拉麦片。

So I used to use Super Whisper and Whisper flow, which I think are fantastic.

所以我曾经使用Super Whisper和Whisper flow，我认为这非常棒。

We have an internal version of that called Monologue that will be shipping in a month or so that I use now, but you can think of them as roughly equivalent.

我们有一个名为 Monologue 的内部版本，将在一个月左右发布，我现在正在使用，但您可以将它们视为大致相同的。

And I think generally speech to text interfaces are the future, and more people should be using them, and more people should be building them as affordances.

我认为一般来说，语音到文本的界面是未来的趋势，应该有更多的人使用它们，并且应该有更多的人将它们构建为功能可供性。

We use Notion all the time, and I specifically use their meeting recording.

我们一直使用Notion，我专门使用他们的会议录音。

I think that's mostly the stack.

我认为这主要是堆栈。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

That was really helpful and super interesting.

这真的很有帮助而且非常有趣。

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Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 PostHog 为您带来，PostHog 是您的工程师真正想要使用的产品平台。

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PostHog 拥有创始人、开发人员和产品团队所需的所有工具，例如产品分析、网络分析、会话重播、热图、实验、调查、LLM 可观察性、空气跟踪等。

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Lenny Rachitsky：PostHog 提供的所有内容都附带慷慨的免费套餐，每月都会重置。

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超过 90% 的客户免费使用 PostHog。

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您会喜欢与如此透明和技术性的团队合作，您会看到工程师针对您的问题提出拉取请求，并且当事情变得棘手时，他们的支持团队会提供代码级帮助。

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Lenny Rachitsky：PostHog 可以让您将所有数据集中到一处，而不仅仅是分析事件。

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Lenny Rachitsky：最后，他们的新人工智能产品分析师 MaxAI 可以帮助您更快地走得更远。

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立即在 posthog.com/lenny 上免费注册，并确保告诉他们是 Lenny 派给您的。

That's posthog.com/lenny.

这是 posthog.com/lenny。

Lenny Rachitsky: Let's go back to ways that your team operates.

Lenny Rachitsky：让我们回到你们团队的运作方式。

You mentioned having Kate.

你提到过凯特。

Was that her name?

那是她的名字吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

What else?

还有什么？

What else do you do that you think other companies should be doing or will eventually start doing?

您认为其他公司应该做或最终将开始做的其他事情有哪些？

Dan Shipper: So the Cora team, which is Kieran and Nityesh, basically-

Dan Shipper：所以 Cora 团队，即 Kieran 和 Nityesh，基本上 -

Dan Shipper: That's the team, yeah.

Dan Shipper：是的，这就是团队。

Well, with Cora, it's Kieran, Nityesh, and 15 Claude Code instances, so it's more powerful than you think.

好吧，对于 Cora，它是 Kieran、Nityesh 和 15 个 Claude Code 实例，所以它比你想象的更强大。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。

This is just, again, a glimpse into the future.

这再次只是对未来的一瞥。

Dan Shipper: One of the things that we do that I think is really cool, and they basically invented this, I had nothing to do with this, is they invented the idea of compounding engineering.

Dan Shipper：我认为我们所做的一件事情非常酷，他们基本上发明了这个，我与此无关，是他们发明了复合工程的想法。

So basically, for every unit of work, you should make the next unit of work easier to do.

所以基本上，对于每个工作单元，你应该让下一个工作单元更容易完成。

Dan Shipper: So an example is, in a Claude Code world, where you're not coding a lot, you end up spending a lot of time essentially typing PRDs.

Dan Shipper：举个例子，在 Claude Code 世界中，您不会进行大量编码，但最终会花费大量时间来输入 PRD。

Like, "Here's a document with exactly the stuff that I need to do," right?

就像，“这是一份包含我需要做的事情的文档”，对吧？

And so you could just be like, "Okay, cool.

所以你可以说，“好吧，酷。

That's my job now.

这就是我现在的工作。

I'm going to just write PRDs." And so each successive PRD, it's the same amount of work.

我只会写 PRD。”因此，每个连续的 PRD 的工作量都是相同的。

Dan Shipper: Or you could spend a little bit of time being like...

Dan Shipper：或者你可以花一点时间......

There's a sort of platonic ideal of a PRD.

PRD 有一种柏拉图式的理想。

And what I'm going to do is write a prompt that can take my rambling thoughts and then turn that into a PRD.

我要做的就是写一个提示，可以将我漫无目的的想法转化为 PRD。

And so you spend a little bit of work to make all of the next PRDs that you're doing easier to write because you're writing less of them.

因此，您花费了一些工作来使您正在做的所有下一个 PRD 更容易编写，因为您编写的内容较少。

Dan Shipper: And so finding those little speed-ups, where every time you're building something, you're making it easier to do that same thing next time, I think gets you a lot more leverage in your engineering team.

Dan Shipper：因此，找到那些小小的加速，每次你构建一些东西时，你都会让下次更容易做同样的事情，我认为这会让你在你的工程团队中获得更多的影响力。

Dan Shipper: And so, yeah, we have Kieran and Nityesh.

Dan Shipper：所以，是的，我们有 Kieran 和 Nityesh。

And Cora, it just became public.

而科拉，它刚刚公开。

It was in private beta.

它处于私人测试阶段。

It had 2,500 active users.

它有 2,500 名活跃用户。

And there's millions of emails going through it.

并且有数百万封电子邮件正在通过它。

And that's one of the products that we do as a 15-person company.

这是我们作为一家 15 人公司开发的产品之一。

It's kind of crazy.

这有点疯狂。

Lenny Rachitsky: It is crazy.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太疯狂了。

How do you do the speed-up thing?

提速的事怎么办？

Is it prompts that they continue to refine ?

难道是提示他们继续炼化？

Dan Shipper: A lot of it is prompts, and automations, and stuff like that.

Dan Shipper：很多都是提示、自动化等等。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

For automations, what's the tool?

对于自动化来说，工具是什么？

What's the tool you use for automating automations?

您使用什么工具来实现自动化？

Dan Shipper: What they're using a lot of is Claude Code.

Dan Shipper：他们经常使用的是 Claude Code。

So you can do slash commands in Claude Code, which are repeated prompts that you're doing.

因此，您可以在 Claude Code 中执行斜杠命令，这些命令是您正在执行的重复提示。

Lenny Rachitsky: Got it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：明白了。

Okay.

好的。

So basically they're building a library of prompts that make the process, of, "Here's what I want to build," to a good solid PRD that you can feed into Claude Code more correct and more efficient?

所以基本上他们正在构建一个提示库，使“这就是我想要构建的”过程变成一个良好的可靠 PRD，您可以将其输入 Claude Code 中，使其更正确、更高效？

Lenny Rachitsky: Super interesting.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：超级有趣。

And they just keep a file or they put this into a project?

他们只是保留一个文件还是将其放入项目中？

Is that how they store this stuff?

他们就是这样储存这些东西的吗？

Dan Shipper: It's a GitHub.

Dan Shipper：这是一个 GitHub。

It's a GitHub GitHub-

这是一个 GitHub GitHub-

...

...

where they can share it with each other.: Another thing that they do, which I think is very cool, is they use a bunch of Claudes at once, but then they're also using three other agents.

他们可以互相分享。：他们做的另一件事，我认为非常酷，是他们同时使用一群克劳德，但随后他们还使用其他三个特工。

There's an agent called Friday that they love.

他们喜欢一个叫星期五的特工。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's an AI Asian product called Friday?

Lenny Rachitsky：这是一款名为“星期五”的亚洲人工智能产品？

Lenny Rachitsky: Hadn't heard of that.

Lenny Rachitsky：没听说过。

Okay, interesting.

好吧，有趣。

Dan Shipper: There's another one called Charlie that they really love.

丹·希珀：还有一个他们非常喜欢的人，名叫查理。

And in particular, I think the thing they like about Charlie...

特别是，我认为他们喜欢查理的一点......

We have a whole video about this, which I can send to you.

我们有一个关于此的完整视频，我可以将其发送给您。

Dan Shipper: They did an S-tier through F-tier of AI agents, which I think is so funny.

Dan Shipper：他们做了 S 级到 F 级的人工智能代理，我认为这很有趣。

And one of the things I really like about Charlie is that it lives in GitHub, so when you get a pull request, you can just be like, at Charlie, "Can you check this out?" And that seems to work really well to have different agents that have maybe slightly different perspectives.

我真正喜欢 Charlie 的原因之一是它存在于 GitHub 中，因此当你收到拉取请求时，你可以对 Charlie 说：“你能检查一下吗？”对于拥有可能略有不同观点的不同代理人来说，这似乎非常有效。

It's like different people that have different perspectives and have different taste.

就像不同的人有不同的观点和不同的品味一样。

Dan Shipper: Kieran, he's one of those serious Rails-files, who they just love Rails, and they love the way that Rails feels, and so I think he has a real sensitivity to...

Dan Shipper：Kieran，他是那些认真的 Rails 文件之一，他们只是喜欢 Rails，他们喜欢 Rails 的感觉，所以我认为他对……非常敏感。

Okay, this agent, ChatGPT for example, it feels very terse, and minimal, and professional, and it has a particular kind of style that maybe he likes.

好吧，这个代理，比如ChatGPT，感觉非常简洁、简约、专业，而且有一种特殊的风格，也许他喜欢。

Versus, I don't know, Claude is a slightly different style.

对比一下，我不知道，克劳德的风格略有不同。

And I think all of that is so interesting that these things have personalities, and that that changes what you might want to use it for or why you might want to use three of them at once.

我认为所有这些都很有趣，这些东西都有个性，这会改变你可能想要使用它的用途，或者为什么你可能想要同时使用其中三个。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is so fascinating.

Lenny Rachitsky：这太令人着迷了。

It makes me think about Peter Deng's conversation again, where he talks about his hiring strategy and one of his key lessons.

这让我再次想起 Peter Deng 的谈话，他谈到了他的招聘策略和他的重要教训之一。

And he ended up hiring the current head of product for ChatGPT, the current head of marketing at ChatGPT, the current head of engineering because he hires these incredible people.

他最终聘请了 ChatGPT 现任产品主管、ChatGPT 现任营销主管、现任工程主管，因为他雇用了这些令人难以置信的人才。

Lenny Rachitsky: And his philosophy is to hire a team of Avengers, where everyone is strong at certain things, and together they're the perfect team, versus everyone...

莱尼·拉奇茨基：他的理念是雇佣一支复仇者联盟，每个人在某些事情上都很强大，而且他们在一起就是完美的团队，与每个人对抗......

versus the best at everything.

与所有事情上最好的相比。

And it's interesting that you can almost do that with different product, different agents from different companies.

有趣的是，您几乎可以使用不同公司的不同产品、不同代理商来做到这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: And it makes me feel like there's a bigger market than people think potentially, where people will want different companies, agents, not just all Devins or not all Codexes.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我觉得有一个比人们想象的更大的市场，人们会想要不同的公司、代理商，而不仅仅是所有 Devins 或并非所有 Codex。

Dan Shipper: I think there really is.

丹·希珀：我认为确实有。

It's definitely not one agent to rule them all at all.

绝对不是一个代理人可以统治他们。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, my God.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，天哪。

The two people on the Cora team, what's their background?

Cora团队的这两个人，他们的背景是什么？

Are they both engineers or what are they?

他们都是工程师还是什么？

Dan Shipper: Kieran's got this crazy background, where...

丹·希珀（Dan Shipper）：基兰有一个疯狂的背景，其中......

They both have really interesting backgrounds.

他们都有非常有趣的背景。

Kieran's got this crazy background, where he was previously VP Eng at a startup, so was effectively the CTO of a startup, or maybe two startups, and was one of the founders.

Kieran 有着疯狂的背景，他之前是一家初创公司的工程副总裁，因此实际上是一家初创公司（或者可能是两家初创公司）的首席技术官，并且是创始人之一。

But before that, he was a composer, a professional composer.

但在此之前，他是一名作曲家，一名职业作曲家。

And before that, he was a baker.

在此之前，他是一名面包师。

So we did a team retreat in France last year, and he taught us all how to make croissants.

所以去年我们在法国进行了一次团队静修，他教我们所有人如何制作牛角面包。

My croissant was horrible.

我的羊角面包很糟糕。

His was beautiful.

他的很漂亮。

Dan Shipper: And generally, I think that kind of multidimensional type of talent is the kind of person that I love having at Every.

丹·希珀：总的来说，我认为这种多维度的人才是我喜欢在 Every 公司拥有的那种人。

Because we're all generalists.

因为我们都是多面手。

We all want to use AI for all these weird, awesome, creative things.

我们都想用人工智能来做所有这些奇怪的、很棒的、有创意的事情。

And someone who has that background is going to have a good taste for not only agents, but, "What should the landing page look like," or whatever.

具有这种背景的人不仅会对代理有良好的品味，而且会对“登陆页面应该是什么样子”或其他什么有很好的品味。

Which I think is increasingly important, where you're trying to scale a team of generalists of 15 people to five products.

我认为这一点越来越重要，因为您正试图将 15 人的通才团队扩展到五种产品。

So that's Kieran's background.

这就是基兰的背景。

Dan Shipper: Natasha's background is...

丹·希珀：娜塔莎的背景是……

I'm jealous because he only started learning to code when ChatGPT came out.

我很嫉妒，因为他是在 ChatGPT 出现时才开始学习编码的。

He had wanted to learn to code forever, and he's only known how to code in an AI era.

他一直想永远学习编码，而他只知道在人工智能时代如何编码。

And I keep telling him, "Dude, I learned to program in middle school from books." I had to go to Barnes & Noble and buy a book.

我一直告诉他，“伙计，我在中学时从书本上学会了编程。”我不得不去巴诺书店买一本书。

And there was nothing...

而且什么也没有...

I couldn't Google any-

我无法谷歌任何 -

Dan Shipper: I had to go to Barnes and Noble and buy a book and there was nothing...

Dan Shipper：我不得不去 Barnes and Noble 买一本书，但什么也没有......

I couldn't Google anything about why this function wasn't working.

我无法通过谷歌搜索任何有关此功能不起作用的原因的信息。

Lenny Rachitsky: No Stack Overflow even back then.

Lenny Rachitsky：即使在那时也没有 Stack Overflow。

Dan Shipper: Yeah, yeah.

丹·希珀：是的，是的。

There wasn't that overflow.

没有那种溢出。

There was weird BB net forums and stuff that I was like 12 and I probably shouldn't have been on there or whatever.

有一些奇怪的 BB 网论坛和我 12 岁时可能不应该参加的东西。

So he has gone so much faster than any other engineer, I think in a pre AI era.

所以我认为在前人工智能时代，他比任何其他工程师都快得多。

And I see the same thing in the rest of the company.

我在公司其他部门也看到了同样的情况。

I think there's this huge question about what happens when kids...

我认为这是一个很大的问题，当孩子们......

Entry level jobs are taken away by AI.

入门级工作被人工智能夺走了。

And my take is like that's worth thinking about and it's possible that that might be a problem at some point.

我的看法是，这值得思考，而且在某些时候这可能会成为一个问题。

But my take is whenever I see a kid with ChatGPT, I'm like, holy shit, they're going to grow so much faster than any other person that I've worked with.

但我的看法是，每当我看到一个使用 ChatGPT 的孩子时，我就会想，天哪，他们的成长速度比我共事过的任何其他人都要快得多。

We have this guy Alex Duffy who works with us, he writes for Context Window and he just launched, we taught AIs how to play diplomacy with each other, which is really cool.

我们有一个亚历克斯·达菲（Alex Duffy）和我们一起工作，他为 Context Window 撰稿，他刚刚推出，我们教人工智能如何相互玩外交，这真的很酷。

Dan Shipper: And he did that whole thing and I think he's really, really, really talented.

丹·希珀：他做到了这一切，我认为他真的非常非常有才华。

And when he came to us, I guess almost a year ago now, it was one of those classic cases which I've seen over and over at every...

当他来到我们这里时，我想差不多一年前了，这是我每次都一遍又一遍地看到的经典案例之一……

Which is, you have great ideas, but you're not a good writer yet and it's really hard for me to do anything with you until you're good enough at it.

也就是说，你有很棒的想法，但你还不是一个好的作家，在你足够擅长之前我很难和你一起做任何事情。

So I have to give you small little things until you get better and blah, blah, blah, whatever.

所以我必须给你一些小事，直到你好起来，等等，等等，等等。

And what I noticed with him is he was just making a year.

我注意到他才刚刚赚了一年的钱。

He made a year's worth of progress in two months because every time I sat down with him and told him, okay, here's how you tell a story.

他在两个月内取得了相当于一年的进步，因为每次我和他坐下来告诉他，好吧，这就是你讲故事的方式。

Here's how you think about a headline.

以下是您对标题的看法。

He recorded all of it, put it into a prompt, and he never made the same mistake twice.

他把这一切都记录下来，放入提示中，而且他从来没有犯第二次同样的错误。

Dan Shipper: And I think he's so much accelerated from where he would have been because of this stuff, and I see that in lots of other parts of the work.

丹·希珀（Dan Shipper）：我认为，由于这些东西，他的速度比他本来应该达到的水平要快得多，我在工作的许多其他部分都看到了这一点。

So Natasha is another good example.

娜塔莎是另一个很好的例子。

And so I think generally people are going to figure out that some 20-year-old with ChatGPT subscription is super powerful if you just mentor them.

因此，我认为一般来说，如果你指导一些订阅了 ChatGPT 的 20 岁年轻人，他们会发现他们非常强大。

And I think that's great.

我认为这很棒。

Lenny Rachitsky: Man, there's so many threads I could follow here.

Lenny Rachitsky：伙计，这里有很多我可以关注的话题。

There's all this fear of entry level people will never...

对于入门级的人来说，所有这些恐惧永远不会......

The roles are disappearing for entry level people and so how will we ever have senior people if these people can't learn to do things as an entry level person?

对于入门级人员来说，这些角色正在消失，如果这些人不能学会像入门级人员那样做事情，我们怎么会有高级人员呢？

And what you're saying is ChatGPT and these tools help you accelerate really quickly so you don't really need to be at the bottom rung for a long time.

您所说的是 ChatGPT，这些工具可以帮助您快速加速，因此您实际上不需要长时间处于底层。

Dan Shipper: Yeah.

丹·希珀：是的。

You're effectively learning how to be one level above the entry level from the beginning and this is sort of my whole allocation economy thesis where when you look at skills are going to be valuable in the AI era, one big group of skills are the skills of managers.

你正在有效地学习如何从一开始就比入门级高出一个级别，这就是我的整个分配经济论文，当你看到技能在人工智能时代将变得有价值时，一大群技能就是管理者的技能。

Today, they're human managers, tomorrow everyone's a model manager.

今天，他们是人力经理，明天每个人都是模范经理。

Right now, AI is not...

目前，人工智能还...

Right now, management skills are not broadly distributed, because it's very expensive, another expensive thing that...

目前，管理技能还没有广泛传播，因为它非常昂贵，另一个昂贵的东西......

So 8% of the workforce is managers.

因此，8% 的劳动力是管理者。

It's now going to be much cheaper to manage, so more people are going to have to do it.

现在管理成本将大大降低，因此更多的人将不得不这样做。

And so that's the thing that kids, 20-year-olds, whatever, I see is now are going to start to have to learn in addition to, it's not like you can just say, okay, go do it and then come back.

所以我认为，这就是孩子们、20 岁的人，无论什么，现在都必须开始学习的东西，而且，你不能只是说，好吧，去做，然后再回来。

You have to be able to go into the work that's being done and help make it better.

你必须能够投入到正在完成的工作中并帮助它变得更好。

But they're learning both at the same time.

但他们同时学习两者。

They're learning how to manage and how to do the actual work so that they're good at it.

他们正在学习如何管理以及如何做实际工作，以便他们擅长。

Lenny Rachitsky: And the managing here is managing agents.

Lenny Rachitsky：这里的管理就是管理代理。

Right?

正确的？

Lenny Rachitsky: And so coming back to your point about how this core team, and I guess you said everyone doesn't write code, zero code written, now it's just managing agents that are writing code for you.

Lenny Rachitsky：回到你关于这个核心团队的观点，我猜你说过每个人都不写代码，零代码编写，现在只是管理代理为你编写代码。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

I've never heard of a company at this stage, so this is extremely cool.

我在这个阶段从未听说过一家公司，所以这非常酷。

So the workflow is they give it, here's what I want.

所以工作流程是他们给的，这就是我想要的。

I refine it using this cool prompts library that they build on and agents build code, write the code.

我使用他们构建的这个很酷的提示库来完善它，代理构建代码，编写代码。

Then basically the time is spent reviewing code and then reviewing the output.

然后基本上时间花在审查代码，然后审查输出上。

What does it look like?

它看起来像什么？

What does it feel like?

感觉如何？

And then continuing to refine, wow.

然后继续完善，哇。

So you guys are at where Michael from Cursor said we will be.

所以你们现在已经到达 Cursor 的 Michael 所说的位置了。

So I chatted with him a few months ago.

所以几个月前我就和他聊过。

He said in a year, this is where he thinks the thing will be.

他说，一年后，这就是他认为事情会发生的地方。

We're not looking at code anymore.

我们不再看代码了。

You guys are already there.

你们已经在那里了。

Although you were looking at code.

尽管您正在查看代码。

Okay, you're still looking at code.

好吧，你还在看代码。

Dan Shipper: They definitely are looking at code.

Dan Shipper：他们肯定是在看代码。

So you're doing a code review before you do anything.

所以你在做任何事情之前都要进行代码审查。

And I do think Danny, who runs Spiral, which is the cloud code for content tool I was talking about that we're building, he spent a couple of days digging into the internals of some third party library that we were interested in just because it's helpful to know, it's helpful to understand those things, but then he's not actually writing any code.

我确实认为，运行 Spiral 的丹尼（Spiral）是我正在谈论的我们正在构建的内容工具的云代码，他花了几天时间深入研究了我们感兴趣的一些第三方库的内部结构，只是因为了解这些内容很有帮助，理解这些东西很有帮助，但他实际上并没有编写任何代码。

Once he understands it, he's just off telling cloud code what to do.

一旦他理解了，他就会告诉云代码该做什么。

And I think that's really important.

我认为这非常重要。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is an insane milestone we're hitting here.

Lenny Rachitsky：这是我们在这里达到的一个疯狂的里程碑。

There's this sense we're getting to a place where you don't need to really understand code, you don't have to write any code.

有这种感觉，我们正在到达一个不需要真正理解代码、不需要编写任何代码的地方。

We'll get there and you guys are there.

我们会到达那里，你们也在那里。

I think this is so easy to overlook how wild this is.

我认为这很容易让人忽视它的疯狂程度。

You have a product team not writing code at all.

您的产品团队根本不编写代码。

Dan Shipper: It is really wild.

Dan Shipper：这真的很疯狂。

I think it's really wild in particular, just having a small group of people that have...

我认为这真的很疯狂，只有一小群人……

Everyone has all these different skills.

每个人都拥有所有这些不同的技能。

Everyone's a generalist, everyone's AI forward.

人人都是多面手，人人都是AI前锋。

So what you can do in an environment like that with just still a small team is crazy.

因此，在这样的环境中，只有一个小团队就能做的事情是疯狂的。

And you're kind of inventing all these new principles for how do we work together, how do we do engineering, all that kind of stuff.

你正在发明所有这些关于我们如何合作、如何进行工程以及所有此类事情的新原则。

And I think that's what makes the writing...

我认为这就是写作的原因......

That's why I like doing that is because the writing that we do from that I think is really good because we can talk about it from a sort of position of experience, but I do want to say something else which is we're not at a point yet where the people that work at every could do what they do if they didn't know how to code.

这就是为什么我喜欢这样做，因为我认为我们所做的写作非常好，因为我们可以从某种经验的角度来谈论它，但我确实想说一些其他的话，那就是我们还没有达到这样的程度：如果每个人都在工作，如果他们不知道如何编码，他们就可以做他们所做的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, this is what I was going to ask.

Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这就是我要问的。

Dan Shipper: Which is a different bar, and I think for a long time it's going to be valuable to know how to code for a long time, but this is a progression that is not a new progression.

Dan Shipper：这是一个不同的酒吧，我认为在很长一段时间内，长期了解如何编码将是有价值的，但这是一个进步，而不是一个新的进步。

So for example, when I was in middle school learning to code, the new hot thing was scripting languages, which is Python and JavaScript.

例如，当我在中学学习编码时，新的热门事物是脚本语言，即 Python 和 JavaScript。

But if you were a real programmer, you would understand the language underlying Python and JavaScript, which is written in C.

但如果你是一名真正的程序员，你就会了解 Python 和 JavaScript 的底层语言，后者是用 C 编写的。

and scripting language weren't totally real.

脚本语言并不完全真实。

And in order to really do anything interesting, you had to be able to learn both parts of the stack.

为了真正做一些有趣的事情，你必须能够学习堆栈的两个部分。

Same thing for C programmers, when I guess in the seventies C was invented, it was like you got to be able to write assembly.

对于 C 程序员来说也是如此，我猜当 C 语言在七十年代发明时，就好像你必须能够编写汇编语言一样。

Dan Shipper: And English is just a layer on top of scripting languages.

Dan Shipper：英语只是脚本语言之上的一层。

So I think all of those things were right in the sense that there's...

所以我认为所有这些事情都是正确的，因为……

Especially during transitions, there's a lot of reasons why it's important to be able to go down a layer in the stack and it gets less and less frequent over time, but that still takes a long time.

特别是在转换期间，有很多原因可以解释为什么能够在堆栈中向下一层很重要，并且随着时间的推移，这种情况会变得越来越不频繁，但这仍然需要很长时间。

And there's some times when even if you're a JavaScript or a Python programmer, it's useful to know how that stuff works, how it's written, and see how it's implemented.

有时，即使您是 JavaScript 或 Python 程序员，了解这些东西如何工作、如何编写以及如何实现也是很有用的。

Today it's much less important than it used to be, but that took 10 or 20 years.

如今，它的重要性已不如以前，但这花了 10 年或 20 年的时间。

And I think that the same thing is going to be true for programming.

我认为对于编程来说也是如此。

Having that skill is super important and will accelerate you significantly.

拥有这项技能非常重要，并且会显着加快你的速度。

It will sort of start to get less important over time, but we're not close to that yet.

随着时间的推移，它会开始变得不那么重要，但我们还没有接近这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

That's a really important point.

这是非常重要的一点。

I'm glad you went there.

我很高兴你去了那里。

So do you have a sense of how far we might be from you hiring someone to build another product that isn't an engineer?

那么，您是否知道我们距离您聘请非工程师的人来构建另一种产品还有多远？

Lenny Rachitsky: So hey, we have this idea we want to bring someone on to actually lead it.

Lenny Rachitsky：嘿，我们有这个想法，我们希望有人来真正领导它。

Dan Shipper: Very far.

丹·希珀：很远。

Not within sight, but there's a lot of things that could be products that are a level down from that I think that you could do almost now.

虽然还看不到，但有很多事情可能是比我认为你现在几乎可以做的产品低一个级别的产品。

So an example, we were talking about DIA, the new AI browser from the browser company.

举个例子，我们正在谈论 DIA，浏览器公司推出的新型人工智能浏览器。

DIA has these things called skills, which are effectively little AI apps that you can run in the browser.

DIA 有一些称为技能的东西，它们实际上是可以在浏览器中运行的小型人工智能应用程序。

You can prompt them and they run on the web page and do work for you.

您可以提示它们，它们会在网页上运行并为您工作。

A non-technical person can build that, same thing for custom GPTs from ChatGPT.

非技术人员可以构建它，对于来自 ChatGPT 的自定义 GPT 也是如此。

A non-technical person can definitely build that.

非技术人员绝对可以构建它。

So I think while I will definitely maintain that we're not anywhere close to anybody being able to build a conventional SaaS app with zero programming knowledge, aside from just a demo, there are going to be other forms of software.

因此，我认为，虽然我肯定会坚持认为，我们还没有任何人能够用零编程知识构建传统的 SaaS 应用程序，但除了演示之外，还会有其他形式的软件。

Dan Shipper: One of my things is like software is becoming content.

Dan Shipper：我的一件事是软件正在成为内容。

There's going to be other forms of software that don't look like the software today, but you can run, start and run as a business, as a non-technical person even if you don't know how to code.

将会有其他形式的软件看起来不像今天的软件，但即使您不知道如何编码，您也可以作为企业、作为非技术人员来运行、启动和运行。

And that'll happen very soon.

这很快就会发生。

I mean, it's already kind of happening.

我的意思是，这已经发生了。

It doesn't look like the thing that you're asking about.

它看起来不像你要问的问题。

It's sort of like the difference between a Hollywood movie and a YouTube video.

这有点像好莱坞电影和 YouTube 视频之间的区别。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think that's really reassuring to a lot of people.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这确实让很多人感到放心。

Basically what you're seeing is AI just supercharges people who have a skill and allows them to do a lot more.

基本上你所看到的是人工智能只是增强了拥有技能的人的能力，让他们能够做更多的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Is there any other way that you guys operate that is really interesting that might be worth sharing that helps you operate really quickly, helps you do more with less?

你们还有其他真正有趣、值得分享的操作方式吗？它可以帮助您快速操作，帮助您事半功倍？

Dan Shipper: I mean, I would love to talk about how we think about building products, what products to build, what do we end up building?

Dan Shipper：我的意思是，我很想谈谈我们如何看待构建产品、构建什么产品、我们最终构建什么？

Because I think that there's something sort of special about it that probably there's a playbook that is useful for people.

因为我认为它有一些特别之处，可能有一本对人们有用的剧本。

So when I think about...

So when I think about...

This is only sort of snapped into focus recently.

这只是最近才引起人们的关注。

So a lot of this was just doing it intuitively without really a thought for it.

所以很多事情只是凭直觉做，没有真正考虑过。

But when I think about the kind of things that we have ended up incubating, it's basically goes back to something I said at the beginning, which is there are these things that were historically really expensive that only rich people or big companies could buy.

但当我想到我们最终孵化的东西时，它基本上回到了我一开始所说的，那就是这些东西在历史上非常昂贵，只有富人或大公司才能购买。

So a chief of staff for your email, I think a therapist or a lawyer is another interesting example.

所以你的电子邮件的幕僚长，我认为治疗师或律师是另一个有趣的例子。

Someone to organize your closet or organize your computer is another example.

另一个例子是有人整理你的衣柜或整理你的电脑。

Someone to go straight for you, that are becoming orders of magnitude cheaper so that everyone can use them even if you're at a small startup.

有人直接为你服务，价格变得便宜了几个数量级，这样即使你是一家小型初创公司，每个人都可以使用它们。

Dan Shipper: And so basically when you're running, we are sort of this AI first company.

Dan Shipper：基本上，当你跑步时，我们是一家人工智能优先的公司。

You're running into all these little things where you're like, I wish I had a ghost writer right now, but ghost writers are really expensive.

你会遇到所有这些小事情，你会想，我希望我现在有一个代笔作家，但代笔作家真的很贵。

Or I wish I had a lawyer but it would cost me like $25,000.

或者我希望有一位律师，但这会花费我 25,000 美元。

Lawyers are really expensive and there's a lot more demand for those services than can be fulfilled because they're so expensive.

律师的费用确实很高，而且对这些服务的需求远远超出了能够满足的范围，因为它们是如此昂贵。

And what AI does is it allows you to be like, oh, I could just use cloud for that.

人工智能的作用是让你觉得，哦，我可以使用云来实现这一点。

I can use ChatGPT for that.

我可以使用 ChatGPT 来实现这一点。

And so you're able to use the demand that you have that we can afford a lawyer.

因此，您可以利用您的要求，让我们聘请律师。

We have ghost writers, but there's a lot more that we can't do because we can't afford it.

我们有代笔作家，但还有很多事情我们不能做，因为我们负担不起。

So we still have our lawyer and we still have our ghost writers, but we just do a lot more of that stuff.

所以我们仍然有我们的律师，我们仍然有我们的代笔作家，但我们只是做了更多这样的事情。

Dan Shipper: And so we notice that.

Dan Shipper：所以我们注意到了这一点。

We start to then use ChatGPT and cloud first, these general purpose tools to try it and see is this useful?

我们首先开始使用ChatGPT和云，这些通用工具来尝试一下，看看这有用吗？

Does this actually work?

这真的有效吗？

All that kind of stuff.

所有这些东西。

And then if it does, we will unbundle it into its own separate thing that becomes an app.

如果确实如此，我们将把它拆分成一个单独的东西，成为一个应用程序。

And I think what's really special about this time is the entire game board has been totally reset in terms of things you can build.

我认为这次真正特别的是整个游戏板在你可以建造的东西方面已经完全重置。

Where five years ago it was like you're going to build another Notes app.

五年前，您似乎要构建另一个 Notes 应用程序。

We've been building notes app for forever, another B2B SAS app.

我们一直在构建笔记应用程序，这是另一个 B2B SAS 应用程序。

It's all the same stuff in slightly different packaging.

都是相同的东西，但包装略有不同。

And now it's totally new territory.

现在这是一个全新的领域。

No one knows what's going on.

没有人知道发生了什么事。

Everyone's inventing it as it happens.

每个人都在创造它。

All these new workflows are being created in a very similar way to, I don't know, for example, when spreadsheets were first a thing on computers, we were figuring out all these new workflows on spreadsheets.

所有这些新的工作流程都是以非常相似的方式创建的，我不知道，例如，当电子表格首先出现在计算机上时，我们正在电子表格上找出所有这些新的工作流程。

Dan Shipper: They got unbundled in the B2B SAS, same thing for ChatGPT and Claude.

Dan Shipper：他们在 B2B SAS 中被拆分，ChatGPT 和 Claude 也是如此。

And what's really cool is you can be like, cool, I'm using using ChatGPT for this.

真正酷的是，您可以说，酷，我正在使用 ChatGPT 来实现此目的。

It's really useful for me.

这对我来说真的很有用。

And you might be one of the first people to really notice that.

您可能是第一批真正注意到这一点的人之一。

And then because everybody that works at Every is AI first and came to us because they reads Every, they read Every, so we all have the same vibe and we're all kind of doing similar stuff.

然后因为在 Every 工作的每个人首先都是人工智能，他们来到我们这里是因为他们阅读 Every，他们阅读 Every，所以我们都有相同的氛围，我们都在做类似的事情。

They become our first users.

他们成为我们的第一批用户。

So we measure the success of the product by is it a banger inside of Every, monologue the app that I was talking to you about, everyone just started using it and we're like, okay, we've got something here.

因此，我们衡量产品是否成功的标准是它是否是我与您谈论的应用程序中的每个人的独白，每个人都刚刚开始使用它，我们就像，好吧，我们在这里有一些东西。

Dan Shipper: And what's really interesting then is if everyone inside of Every uses it and people read Every, they have a similar vibe to us too, so they become the next set of users.

Dan Shipper：真正有趣的是，如果 Every 内部的每个人都使用它并且人们阅读 Every，他们也与我们有类似的氛围，所以他们成为下一组用户。

And that's a really, I think, interesting pipeline for building applications or building apps.

我认为，这对于构建应用程序或构建应用程序来说确实是一个有趣的管道。

It's a totally new greenfield so that all the stuff you're thinking about, it's probably new, which is really cool.

这是一个全新的领域，所以你正在考虑的所有东西都可能是新的，这真的很酷。

And over time, what I think is organizations like ours, people who are playing at the edge, we're doing things that in three years everybody else is going to be doing.

随着时间的推移，我认为像我们这样的组织，那些处于边缘的人，我们正在做的事情是其他人在三年内都会做的。

So it may be kind of niche for now, but it will be a big deal in three years when everyone else has the same needs that we do.

因此，目前这可能是一种利基市场，但三年后，当其他人都有与我们相同的需求时，这将是一件大事。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is really cool.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这真的很酷。

What I'm hearing is GPT wrappers are a good idea and are worth building.

我听说 GPT 包装器是个好主意，值得构建。

Dan Shipper: 100% thank you.

丹·希珀：100% 谢谢。

GPT wrappers are amazing and they've been much maligned for absolutely no reason and people don't understand how absolutely valuable they are.

GPT 包装器非常神奇，但它们却无缘无故地受到了很多诟病，人们不明白它们的绝对价值。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think there's also just you guys raised a sip seed round.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为也只有你们筹集了种子轮资金。

This is a good time to maybe talk about that.

也许现在是谈论这个问题的好时机。

Just these products don't have to become some mega-billion dollar hits.

这些产品不一定会成为价值数十亿美元的热门产品。

You kind of have this portfolio of companies, you have the content business.

你拥有这样的公司组合，你拥有内容业务。

So I think there's a really interesting approach to how big these need to get to be successful.

所以我认为有一个非常有趣的方法来确定这些公司需要多大才能成功。

Maybe just talk about that.

也许只是谈谈这个。

Dan Shipper: Yeah.

丹·希珀：是的。

I really want Every to be an institution that teaches people how to live a better, more human life with technology, particularly with AI.

我真的希望Every成为一个机构，教人们如何利用技术，特别是人工智能，过上更好、更人性化的生活。

And both teaches them how to do it with writing and the content we make and then builds tools for them to do that.

两者都教他们如何通过写作和我们制作的内容来做到这一点，然后为他们构建工具来做到这一点。

But I think fundamental to building an institution is, at least for me, the way I would like to do it is I want internally it to feel like this creative playground where we have the opportunity to take risk and do stuff and do weird stuff that just doesn't make any sense.

但我认为建立一个机构的根本是，至少对我来说，我想要做的方式是我希望在内部它感觉像一个创意游乐场，在那里我们有机会冒险，做一些事情，做一些没有任何意义的奇怪的事情。

We can't justify anyone, but we just feel like it would be fun.

我们无法为任何人辩护，但我们只是觉得这会很有趣。

And so I think I'm always playing with that dynamic tension between institution serious, we want this to be lasting and important and it should just be fun.

因此，我认为我总是在认真地处理机构之间的动态紧张关系，我们希望这种关系持久且重要，而且应该很有趣。

Let's play around.

我们来玩玩吧。

And I think having that tension is really valuable.

我认为拥有这种紧张感真的很有价值。

Dan Shipper: And so I've always been sort of hesitant to raise a lot of money because I think it locks you into having to be that serious thing that's totally going for it.

丹·希珀（Dan Shipper）：所以我一直对筹集大量资金犹豫不决，因为我认为这会让你不得不成为那种完全投入的严肃的事情。

And there's lots of companies that figure out that balance.

有很多公司都找到了这种平衡。

But just for me personally as a founder, I'm like, I want to keep the optionality alive and I want to keep the kind of playful feeling alive.

但就我个人而言，作为创始人，我想，我想保持选择性，我想保持那种有趣的感觉。

And I think part of that comes from I know I have the control to do what I want more or less.

我认为部分原因是我知道我有控制力去做我或多或少想做的事情。

There's probably also some deeper psychological things going on there, which I'm happy to talk about if you want to get into it.

那里可能还存在一些更深层次的心理问题，如果您想了解的话，我很乐意谈论这些问题。

But I think there's also just...

但我认为也只是...

That's what I want.

这就是我想要的。

And so when we started Every, we raised a very small 700K pre-seed round, and this was at the height of the creator economy.

因此，当我们启动 Every 时，我们筹集了 70 万美元的种子前融资，当时正值创作者经济的鼎盛时期。

Dan Shipper: So we both started our newsletters.

Dan Shipper：所以我们都开始制作时事通讯。

He and I started our newsletters around the same time.

他和我大约在同一时间开始了我们的时事通讯。

It was the hypest, craziest thing.

这是最炒作、最疯狂的事情。

People were throwing money around.

人们到处乱扔钱。

It was wild.

很狂野。

But we raised 700K because it was like, I want to raise enough for us to be able to experiment, have a little cash cushion, but not so much that it locks us into anything.

但我们筹集了 70 万美元，因为我想筹集到足够的资金让我们能够进行实验，有一点现金缓冲，但又不能太多，以至于将我们锁定在任何事情上。

And we sent an email to all of our investors being like, and you're one of our investors, so you've probably got this email.

我们向所有投资者发送了一封电子邮件，内容是，您是我们的投资者之一，所以您可能会收到这封电子邮件。

Lenny Rachitsky: Tiny investor.

Lenny Rachitsky：小投资者。

But I'm in there, I'm in there.

但我就在那里，我就在那里。

Dan Shipper: We sent an email to everyone being like, this is probably not a venture business, so you should not expect us to raise again.

Dan Shipper：我们给每个人发了一封电子邮件，说这可能不是一个风险投资业务，所以你不应该指望我们再次筹集资金。

And we even raised on this slightly modified safe that gave everyone the option to convert to equity in three years, even if we didn't raise more money.

我们甚至在这个稍微修改过的保险箱上筹集资金，即使我们没有筹集更多资金，每个人都可以选择在三年内转换为股权。

So we did it in a way that allowed us the option to get really big and do the traditional thing and also the option to do it the way we want to do it.

所以我们这样做的方式让我们可以选择变得更大并做传统的事情，也可以选择按照我们想要的方式来做。

Maybe it's not a huge business, but we love it.

也许这不是一个大生意，但我们喜欢它。

That's great.

那太棒了。

And we did the same thing for this recent round where we raised up to 2 million from Reid Hoffman and starting line VC.

我们在最近的一轮融资中也做了同样的事情，从 Reid Hoffman 和 Starter Line VC 那里筹集了 200 万美元。

And we did it as what I've been calling a sip seed round, which is basically they've committed $2 million, but we can pull it down whenever we want and we just do it on a safe at a set cap.

我们所做的就是我所说的“sip种子轮”，基本上他们已经承诺了200万美元，但我们可以随时撤资，而且我们只是在固定上限的安全范围内进行。

Dan Shipper: And for me, that's really helpful because it allows me psychologically to take a lot more risk.

Dan Shipper：对我来说，这真的很有帮助，因为它让我在心理上可以承担更多的风险。

If we go to zero on the bank account, I can get more money.

如果我们的银行账户归零，我就能得到更多的钱。

Great.

伟大的。

I don't have to think about it.

我不必考虑它。

But what's also really helpful is I'm not, and the rest of the team is not staring at a gigantic number in the bank account being like, cool, we can burn this.

但真正有用的是我没有，团队的其他成员也没有盯着银行账户中的巨大数字，说，酷，我们可以烧掉它。

Let's burn it.

Let's burn it.

And also for our investors, I think Reid very much wants us to succeed, but I don't think he cares what size of business this is.

对于我们的投资者来说，我认为里德非常希望我们成功，但我认为他并不关心我们的业务规模有多大。

I think he's more philosophically aligned with the thing that we're trying to do.

我认为他在哲学上更符合我们正在尝试做的事情。

And if it becomes a huge business, he's psyched for it.

如果它成为一项巨大的业务，他就会对此感到兴奋。

And I think that kind of alignment is what I was looking for.

我认为这种一致性正是我所寻求的。

I think there's this core creative spirit to the thing that I want to maintain and I really care about having a big impact.

我认为我想要维持的东西有这种核心的创造性精神，我真的很关心产生巨大的影响。

Dan Shipper: But I think there's a lot of ways to have an impact.

Dan Shipper：但我认为有很多方法可以产生影响。

And one of them is building a $10 billion business.

其中之一正在打造价值 100 亿美元的业务。

I think another way is really changing how people see the world, see themselves in the world.

我认为另一种方式正在真正改变人们看待世界、看待自己在世界上的方式。

And I think that's what stories do.

我认为这就是故事的作用。

And you don't necessarily...

而你也不一定...

Sometimes you do that by building a gigantic company, but you don't necessarily always have to do that.

有时你可以通过建立一家巨大的公司来做到这一点，但你并不一定总是必须这样做。

A lot of the stories that we care about most are from people who maybe they weren't rich at all.

我们最关心的很多故事都来自那些可能根本不富有的人。

And so I really like creating this place where we can make a really good business.

所以我真的很喜欢创建这个地方，让我们可以做真正好的生意。

And I care a lot about that.

我非常关心这一点。

But also the core of the soul of it is about changing how people see themselves in the world.

但其灵魂的核心是改变人们如何看待自己在世界上的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that you've kind of innovated a new middle ground way of fundraising, not bootstrap and not just regular VC.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢你创新了一种新的中间地带筹款方式，而不是引导程序，也不仅仅是常规的风险投资。

It's a seed.

这是一颗种子。

And I love that this two...

我喜欢这两个...

If I raised 50 million, it'd be like, okay, I get it.

如果我筹集了 5000 万美元，我就会说，好吧，我明白了。

Let's not put 50 million in our bank account, but you do have 2 million.

我们的银行账户里没有5000万，但你有200万。

It's too much for us.

It's too much for us.

We don't want to see that in our account.

我们不想在我们的帐户中看到这种情况。

Dan Shipper: That's another thing.

丹·希珀：那是另一回事。

And we'll see how this ages.

我们会看看它是如何老化的。

I might be back here in two years crying the blues because we didn't raise enough money or whatever.

两年后我可能会因为我们没有筹集到足够的资金或其他原因而回到这里哭泣。

Who knows?

谁知道？

But that's the other thing is I do think we can get so much further with very small amounts of money.

但另一件事是我确实认为我们可以用很少的钱走得更远。

Like Cora, I think all in to build Cora, we've spent maybe 300K, Maybe.

就像 Cora 一样，我认为为了构建 Cora，我们可能花费了 30 万美元。

That's crazy because-

That's crazy because-

Dan Shipper: This product was not even technically possible even if you had billions of dollars three years ago.

Dan Shipper：即使三年前你有数十亿美元，这个产品在技术上也是不可能实现的。

Not possible because you can't do email summarizing and automatic responses and all that kind of stuff without GPT.

不可能，因为如果没有 GPT，您就无法进行电子邮件摘要和自动回复以及所有此类操作。

So not only was it totally impossible, but now we can get with two engineers, we can get the amount done that would've taken a team of 20 people.

因此，这不仅是完全不可能的，而且现在我们可以通过两名工程师完成需要 20 人团队才能完成的工作。

And I think that means that we need less money.

我认为这意味着我们需要更少的钱。

And I don't think that VC has really caught up to that yet.

我认为风险投资还没有真正赶上这一点。

And I think there are other companies that are doing...

And I think there are other companies that are doing...

There's a term called seed strapping, so there are other companies that are starting to wake up to this too.

有一个术语叫做“种子捆扎”，所以其他公司也开始意识到这一点。

And I'm curious about how it changes the VC model.

我很好奇它如何改变风险投资模式。

For sure for us, we have a specific incubation model, which is a bit different from a VC model.

对于我们来说，可以肯定的是，我们有一个特定的孵化模式，这与 VC 模式有点不同。

And I think there's some differentiation in the stuff that we can do with founders, which is kind of cool.

And I think there's some differentiation in the stuff that we can do with founders, which is kind of cool.

But yeah, I'm just trying to figure out a shape that works for me and that's different from other people and we'll see how this goes.

但是，是的，我只是想找出一种适合我的形状，并且与其他人不同，我们会看看效果如何。

Lenny Rachitsky: We'll revisit in a couple years.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们会在几年后再次访问。

Seems like it's going great from the outside.

从外面看似乎进展顺利。

I'm going to ask about a couple other things before we wrap up.

I'm going to ask about a couple other things before we wrap up.

One is around this consulting arm that you have.

One is around this consulting arm that you have.

I think it's really interesting because like I said, I feel like this could be a billion-dollar business.

I think it's really interesting because like I said, I feel like this could be a billion-dollar business.

I feel like every company right now is trying to figure out what the hell's everyone else figured out that we're not doing.

我觉得现在每家公司都在试图弄清楚其他人都知道但我们没有做的事情。

I've had so many emails from chief product officers at companies being like, can you introduce me to some chief product officers that have done cool things with AI that we should learn from?

我收到了很多来自公司首席产品官的电子邮件，比如，你能给我介绍一些在人工智能方面做出了很酷的事情的首席产品官吗？我们应该向他们学习？

So many people and I would just introduce them to each other and it's cool because you guys are basically solving that problem for a lot of companies.

我和很多人只是将他们互相介绍，这很酷，因为你们基本上正在为很多公司解决这个问题。

Lenny Rachitsky: So one is just maybe share a bit about what that side of the business for folks.

Lenny Rachitsky: So one is just maybe share a bit about what that side of the business for folks.

And then two, I feel like I imagine you've seen companies that have done this really well, have adopted AI, things have worked really well, they found really good productivity gains, and then you found companies that don't.

然后第二点，我觉得你已经看到公司在这方面做得非常好，采用了人工智能，事情进展得非常好，他们发现生产力确实得到了很好的提高，然后你发现了一些公司没有这样做。

What do you find is the difference between those two?

What do you find is the difference between those two?

Dan Shipper: I love this question and I have a very specific opinion about this.

Dan Shipper: I love this question and I have a very specific opinion about this.

So one, yeah, the consulting arm, basically we spend all of our time playing around with new models, writing about them and building stuff with them.

所以，是的，咨询部门，基本上我们把所有的时间都花在研究新模型上，写下它们并用它们构建东西。

And we have a big audience.

我们有很多观众。

So naturally we've gotten companies over time being like, can you just come and teach us how to do this?

因此，随着时间的推移，我们很自然地得到了一些公司，比如，你能过来教我们如何做到这一点吗？

And so we started to do that.

所以我们开始这样做。

This is pretty nascent.

This is pretty nascent.

It's probably been over the last six to nine months, but it's a pretty big business now.

It's probably been over the last six to nine months, but it's a pretty big business now.

It'll probably double this year.

今年可能会翻倍。

Last year we did about a million.

去年我们做了大约一百万。

Maybe it'll be more this year.

也许今年会更多。

We'll see.

我们拭目以待。

It depends on a couple...

这取决于一对夫妇...

We have a couple of big contracts out, so it might be way more than that.

我们有几份大合同，所以可能远不止于此。

Lenny Rachitsky: A billion.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：十亿。

I predict a billion dollars in a few years.

我预计几年后将达到十亿美元。

Dan Shipper: But yeah, basically people are like, can you come help us learn how to do this?

Dan Shipper: But yeah, basically people are like, can you come help us learn how to do this?

So what we do is we spend some time going and researching your organization.

So what we do is we spend some time going and researching your organization.

So we go in and try to understand what are all the different teams doing, what are the repetitive tasks, some of the stuff we were talking about earlier.

因此，我们深入了解所有不同团队在做什么，重复性任务是什么，以及我们之前讨论过的一些内容。

And then what we will do is first we present a little report, tells you here's everything that we found.

然后我们要做的就是首先提交一份小报告，告诉您这是我们发现的所有内容。

Here's not only that, but you have a chatbot where you can chat with all the interviews that we did and you can pull out your own insights.

不仅如此，您还有一个聊天机器人，您可以在其中与我们进行的所有采访进行聊天，并且可以得出您自己的见解。

We have a whole dashboard where it shows you, here are the teams that are really into this, here are the teams that are not.

We have a whole dashboard where it shows you, here are the teams that are really into this, here are the teams that are not.

Here's how much leverage you might be able to get on different teams based on the interviews and based on the AI analysis.

Here's how much leverage you might be able to get on different teams based on the interviews and based on the AI analysis.

Dan Shipper: It's pretty cool.

丹·希珀：这非常酷。

And that's an app that I coded over a weekend with Devin a year ago.

And that's an app that I coded over a weekend with Devin a year ago.

And then Alex runs part of the consulting has helped upgrade it.

And then Alex runs part of the consulting has helped upgrade it.

Then what we do is we have a training curriculum.

Then what we do is we have a training curriculum.

So we go in and train each team and we customize it based on the interviews that we do.

So we go in and train each team and we customize it based on the interviews that we do.

Because one of the interesting things about AI is it's such a general purpose technology, and I think people who work inside companies, 10% of them are like, I'm super curious about this.

因为人工智能的一个有趣之处在于它是一种通用技术，我认为在公司内部工作的人，其中 10% 会说，我对此非常好奇。

10% are like, I will never touch this.

10% 的人会说，我永远不会碰这个。

And 80% are like, if you tell me how to do it for my job, I'll do it.

80% 的人会说，如果你告诉我如何做我的工作，我就会做。

Dan Shipper: And so we customize the training to be like, here are the exact prompts you're going to use and here's the exact situations you're going to use them.

Dan Shipper：因此，我们将培训定制为：以下是您将使用的确切提示，以下是您将使用它们的确切情况。

And that really, I think helps drive the adoption.

我认为这确实有助于推动采用。

We spend four weeks with each team, an hour a week, that kind of thing.

我们和每个团队待了四个星期，每周一个小时，诸如此类。

It seems to be really cool.

看起来真的很酷。

And then we'll often also after this, go and build automations and do some of the AI operations stuff we were talking about earlier.

然后我们通常也会在此之后构建自动化并执行我们之前讨论的一些人工智能操作。

Companies really like it.

公司真的很喜欢它。

I think we work with a lot of big hedge funds and PE firms and big companies, all that kind of stuff.

我认为我们与很多大型对冲基金、私募股权公司和大公司等等合作。

To your-

给你的——

Dan Shipper: Companies, all that kind of stuff.

Dan Shipper：公司，诸如此类的东西。

To your second question, which is, "What separates the good companies from the bad, or the companies that end up adopting this?," I think the number one predictor is, "Does the CEO use ChatGPT?," or insert your own chatbot.

对于你的第二个问题，即“好公司与坏公司的区别，或者最终采用这种技术的公司的区别是什么？”，我认为第一个预测因素是，“首席执行官是否使用 ChatGPT？”或者插入你自己的聊天机器人。

If the CEO is in it all the time, being like, "This is the coolest thing," everybody else is going to start doing it.

如果首席执行官一直参与其中，说“这是最酷的事情”，那么其他人就会开始这样做。

If the CEO is like, "I don't know, this is for someone else," no one else is going to be able to lead that charge, and they're either going to have ...

如果首席执行官说，“我不知道，这是给别人的”，那么其他人就无法领导这项工作，他们要么......

Either they're going to be negative on it, and so definitely no one's going to do it, or they're going to have way unrealistic expectations because they have no intuition for what's possible, and they're just going to get really disappointed.

要么他们对此持消极态度，所以肯定没有人会这样做，要么他们会有不切实际的期望，因为他们对可能发生的事情没有直觉，他们只会感到非常失望。

Dan Shipper: But the CEOs that are using it all the time are able to both drive the excitement and set reasonable expectations for what can be achieved, and so those things end up working really well, and the people that do this really well ...

Dan Shipper：但是一直使用它的首席执行官能够既激发兴奋感，又对可以实现的目标设定合理的期望，因此这些事情最终会非常有效，而那些做得非常好的人......

So, for example, we work with a hedge fund called Walleye, which I had the founder on my podcast, AI and I, a few weeks ago, their gigantic $10 billion hedge fund.

举例来说，我们与一家名为 Walleye 的对冲基金合作，几周前，我在我的播客《AI and I》中邀请了该基金的创始人，他们规模达 100 亿美元的庞大对冲基金。

One of the things that they do, which I think they're basically the model for how to do this, first thing you did, which a lot of CEOs are doing is send the, "We're an AI-first company" email.

他们所做的事情之一，我认为他们基本上是如何做到这一点的模型，你做的第一件事，很多首席执行官正在做的就是发送“我们是一家人工智能优先的公司”电子邮件。

Everyone's got the memo.

Everyone's got the memo.

Dan Shipper: You just got to really do it, and one of the things he said in his memo, which I love, is, "I wrote this email with ChatGPT, and you should too." So you got to like ...

Dan Shipper：你必须真正做到这一点，他在备忘录中说的我喜欢的一件事是，“我用 ChatGPT 写了这封电子邮件，你也应该这么做。” So you got to like ...

Dan Shipper: Yeah.

丹·希珀：是的。

You got to lead from the front in that way.

你必须以这种方式从前线领导。

And then, what he does in, I think what a lot of other really cool companies do is they're doing weekly meetings where people share prompts and share use cases.

然后，我认为许多其他非常酷的公司所做的就是他们每周举行会议，人们在会上分享提示并分享用例。

They do a weekly email to their entire company, being like, "Okay, here are our usage stats for ChatGPT.

他们每周向整个公司发送一封电子邮件，内容如下：“好吧，这是我们的 ChatGPT 使用统计数据。

Here are the people that came up with a new prompt and contributed to it."

这些人提出了新的提示并为其做出了贡献。”

Dan Shipper: Create this sort of awareness and momentum, because going back to the point I made earlier, about 10% of people are early adopters, those are the people inside of a company that you need to find and highlight because they're going to just go spend all this time figuring out what works, and then all you have to do is translate what they learn into the rest of the organization.

Dan Shipper：创造这种意识和动力，因为回到我之前提出的观点，大约 10% 的人是早期采用者，这些人是你需要找到并突出显示的公司内部人员，因为他们会花所有时间找出有效的方法，然后你所要做的就是将他们学到的知识转化为组织的其他人员。

And so if you create forums for them to be rewarded, you're going to automatically transfer a lot of their learnings to everybody else, and encourage more of it, and I think that's kind of the secret.

因此，如果你创建论坛让他们获得奖励，你就会自动将他们的很多知识转移给其他人，并鼓励更多人这样做，我认为这就是秘密。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

I love this advice.

我喜欢这个建议。

So just to reflect back, what you just shared, a few kind of tactics you find that you encourage within companies, one is just send this memo, the Toby memo.

所以，回顾一下，你刚才分享的内容，你发现你在公司内部鼓励的几种策略，其中之一就是发送这份备忘录，托比备忘录。

I don't know if that's the right way to describe it, who I think it was first along these lines just, "We're AI-first." It's going to be part of your performance review.

我不知道这是否是描述它的正确方式，我认为这是第一个这样的说法，“我们是人工智能第一。”这将成为你绩效评估的一部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: It's going to be asking, "Can you do it in AI before you could talk to anyone else?," all these things, and then just note, "I wrote this using ChatGPT's," it's a great idea.

Lenny Rachitsky：它会问，“在你可以与其他人交谈之前，你能在人工智能中做到这一点吗？”所有这些事情，然后只需注意，“我用 ChatGPT 写了这个，”这是一个好主意。

This idea of a weekly meeting, so it's like a live or Zoom meeting, where people share, "Here's the thing I've learned about using AI," and then this weekly stats email of, "Here's how much we're using ChatGPT across the org.

每周会议的想法，就像现场会议或 Zoom 会议，人们在会上分享，“这是我学到的关于使用人工智能的知识”，然后是每周统计电子邮件，“这是我们在整个组织中使用 ChatGPT 的程度。

Here's some people that did some awesome work."

这里有一些人做了一些了不起的工作。”

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And I especially love this very simple heuristic of, "If you're a CEO, uses ChatGPT or Claude, or whatever daily, it's going to work out."

我特别喜欢这个非常简单的启发式，“如果你是首席执行官，每天使用 ChatGPT 或 Claude，或者其他任何东西，它就会成功。”

Lenny Rachitsky: That is super cool.

Lenny Rachitsky：那太酷了。

I know it's early, but what kind of impact have you seen from a company, kind of leaning into this and adopting AI widely?

我知道现在还为时过早，但是您从公司中看到了什么样的影响，有哪些倾向并广泛采用人工智能？

Anything you've seen either anecdotally or numbers-wise?

您从轶事或数字上看到过什么吗？

Dan Shipper: It's early.

丹·希珀：现在还早。

It's really hard to say other than ...

实在是很难说，除了……

I think generally, people who do this well now feel like they can do way more work than they used to without having to hire more people, and so they're just going further faster at the same budget.

我认为一般来说，做得好的人现在感觉他们可以比以前做更多的工作，而无需雇用更多的人，因此他们在相同的预算下会走得更快。

I don't see a lot of people being like, "Cool.

我没有看到很多人会说：“酷。

We're going to fire a bunch of people."

我们要解雇一群人。”

Dan Shipper: Also, I don't really want to do consulting work like that.

Dan Shipper：另外，我真的不想做那样的咨询工作。

That sucks.

太糟糕了。

But we've never had to say no. Mostly, people are like, "Cool.

但我们从来不必说不。大多数情况下，人们会说，“酷。

I'm just going to go further with the people that I have."

我将与我所拥有的人一起走得更远。”

Dan Shipper: I think also, back to kind of the first point I made about reshoring American jobs, I have seen some companies, not the ones that we worked with, but I have seen some companies of people that I'm friends with, where they're like, "We have a call center somewhere, but I think I can get the same amount done with two employees in the U.S. that use one of these customer service platforms." They're still not totally automatic.

丹·希珀：我也认为，回到我关于回流美国就业机会的第一点，我见过一些公司，不是我们合作过的公司，但我见过一些我是朋友的公司，他们会说，“我们在某个地方有一个呼叫中心，但我认为我可以通过使用其中一个客户服务平台的两名美国员工完成同样的工作。”它们仍然不是完全自动的。

I think that Klarna CEO thing, that was bullshit.

我认为 Klarna 首席执行官的事完全是胡说八道。

But, yeah, you can have a couple people in the U.S. that maybe you pay a little bit less to than you would for 100 people somewhere else, and obviously, that's the calculus that everyone has to make for themselves, but I've definitely seen that happen, and yeah, I think that's the get more done with the same amount of people.

但是，是的，你可以在美国为几个人支付比在其他地方为 100 个人支付的费用要少一些，显然，这是每个人都必须为自己做的计算，但我确实看到了这种情况的发生，是的，我认为这就是用相同数量的人做更多的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Maybe to close out our conversation, I want to come back to this idea that you referenced, but I want to spend a little more time on this, which is this idea of the allocation economy.

Lenny Rachitsky：也许为了结束我们的谈话，我想回到你提到的这个想法，但我想花更多的时间在这个问题上，这就是分配经济的想法。

If I understand it correctly, we've been in this knowledge economy, where people get paid to do a thing, and your thesis is that we're moving to this allocation economy, where the manager skills become more important, and we're going to be spending more of our time managing.

如果我理解正确的话，我们一直处于知识经济中，人们做某事就可以获得报酬，而你的论点是我们正在转向这种分配经济，在这种经济中，管理者的技能变得更加重要，我们将花更多的时间进行管理。

And I think what's amazing about this is it also tells you which skills will matter more in the future, which is something I think a lot of people are thinking about.

我认为这令人惊奇的是它还告诉你哪些技能在未来会更重要，我认为这是很多人都在考虑的事情。

So maybe just answer that question and share whatever you think is important to share to give people a sense of what you're thinking.

因此，也许只需回答这个问题并分享您认为重要的任何内容，以便让人们了解您的想法。

Dan Shipper: Yeah.

丹·希珀：是的。

So this is based on our article I wrote two, two and a half years ago.

这是基于我两年半前写的文章。

So this is back before agents were even thought of as viable.

所以这还是在智能体被认为可行之前。

And I was really trying to think about, "How do I express what ...

我真的很努力地思考，“我该如何表达......

In my experience, using this every day, what skills are useful for me?," because I think that'll be the case for a lot of other people, and I think that's kind of the best method, I think, to do these sorts of predictions, is you have to be doing it all the time yourself, and then that informs your opinion about this stuff.

根据我每天使用这个的经验，哪些技能对我有用？”因为我认为对于很多其他人来说也是如此，我认为这是最好的方法，我认为，要做这类预测，你必须自己一直这样做，然后这会告诉你对这些东西的看法。

Dan Shipper: So what I noticed using, at the time, like GPT-3 or maybe GPT-4, was that I was spending a lot of time, for example, thinking about, "How do I communicate the problem?

Dan Shipper：所以我注意到当时使用 GPT-3 或 GPT-4 时，我花了很多时间，例如，思考“我如何传达问题？

How do I gather the right information for the problem?

如何收集解决问题的正确信息？

How do I put it in the right way so that the model that I'm working with gets it?

我如何以正确的方式放置它，以便我正在使用的模型能够得到它？

How do I pick which model to give it to you, and how do I maybe divide up the task to be like, 'Okay, this model does this, this model does this,' based on what I know to be like, 'What's good and what's bad?'?

我如何选择将其提供给您的模型，以及如何根据我所知道的“什么是好的，什么是坏的？”将任务划分为“好吧，这个模型执行此操作，此模型执行此操作”？

How do I give them feedback?"

我该如何给他们反馈？”

Dan Shipper: "How do I have a vision for what I want and a set of criteria for whether it's good?" All that stuff is exactly how I found myself using these tools, and I was like, "Oh, that's just managing." And once that clicks for you, I think you'll start to see a lot of other things.

Dan Shipper：“我如何对我想要的东西有一个愿景，并有一套判断它是否良好的标准？”所有这些东西正是我发现自己使用这些工具的方式，我当时想，“哦，这只是管理。”一旦你明白了这一点，我想你就会开始看到很多其他的东西。

So a really good example is there's a big complaint that it's like, "Well, how can I have AI do this?

一个非常好的例子是，有一个很大的抱怨，“那么，我怎样才能让人工智能做到这一点呢？

I can't trust that they're going to do it well, so I just do it myself."

我不敢相信他们会做得很好，所以我就自己做。”

Dan Shipper: And I'm just like, "Yeah, that's exactly what Every first-time manager says." You always have this problem, where you're like, "Okay.

丹·希珀：我的反应是，“是的，这正是每个初次担任经理的人都会说的。”你总是会遇到这个问题，你会说：“好吧。

Well, if I delegate it, it's not done in the way that I want it to be done.

好吧，如果我委托它，它就不会按照我希望的方式完成。

If I do it myself, I get no leverage." And so that's how a manager has to learn how to be a manager is like, "When do I lean in and maybe micromanage a little bit, and when can I delegate, and how can I trust it, and how do I divide up the task and all that kind of stuff?"

如果我自己做，我就没有任何影响力。”所以这就是经理必须学习如何成为一名经理的方式，“我什么时候应该倾斜一点，也许进行一些微观管理，什么时候可以授权，我如何信任它，以及我如何分配任务和所有类似的事情？”

Dan Shipper: And so I think there's a lot of overlap in those skills.

Dan Shipper：所以我认为这些技能有很多重叠之处。

And those skills are not broadly distributed right now, but they will be in the future because it will be so much cheaper to be a manager.

这些技能现在还没有广泛传播，但将来它们将会广泛传播，因为成为一名经理的成本会低得多。

Lenny Rachitsky: And specifically, I was looking at the article you wrote, the skills that you highlight will be more valuable is evaluating talent, vision, taste, and to your point, when to get into the details, when it makes sense to dive in.

Lenny Rachitsky：具体来说，我正在看您写的文章，您强调的技能更有价值的是评估人才、愿景、品味，以及您的观点，何时深入细节、何时深入研究有意义。

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And then, there's also kind of a connected point you made that you referenced, which is that generalists will become more and more valuable in the future.

然后，你提到的还有一个相互关联的观点，那就是通才在未来会变得越来越有价值。

You mentioned that everyone at Every is a generalist.

您提到Every 的每个人都是多面手。

Lenny Rachitsky: Share a little bit about that.

Lenny Rachitsky：分享一下这一点。

Dan Shipper: Yeah.

丹·希珀：是的。

I find ...

我发现...

I mean, maybe it's because I'm a generalist, so you should take this with a grain of salt.

我的意思是，也许是因为我是一个多面手，所以你应该对此持保留态度。

Dan Shipper: But I think that's one of the things that has made AI so awesome for me, is I love to dabble in different things.

Dan Shipper：但我认为人工智能对我来说如此出色的原因之一是我喜欢涉足不同的事物。

So it's like in one day, I can be coding an app, and making a video, and making images, and writing, and all that kind of stuff, and ChatGPT is right there with me.

所以就像有一天，我可以编写一个应用程序、制作视频、制作图像、写作以及所有类似的事情，而 ChatGPT 就在我身边。

And I think basically what has happened, as civilization has progressed from Ancient Greece to now, is what we've discovered is the more that we specialize, the better we can coordinate across many different people.

我认为，随着文明从古希腊发展到现在，我们发现，我们的专业化程度越高，我们就越能更好地在许多不同的人之间进行协调。

And so it's like the Adam Smith, like there's a pin factory and someone's making a pin or whatever his thing is, is specialization against our trade.

所以这就像亚当·斯密，就像有一家别针工厂，有人在制作别针或其他什么东西，这是针对我们贸易的专业化。

And there have been a lot of really good impacts of that.

这产生了很多非常好的影响。

Dan Shipper: One of my favorite examples of this is back to Ancient Greece, Ancient Athens.

Dan Shipper：我最喜欢的例子之一是回到古希腊、古雅典。

Athens was a civilization of generalists, at least for citizens.

雅典是一个多面手的文明，至少对公民来说是这样。

They have a bad history with women and people who are slaves, but let's just put that to the side for a second.

他们与妇女和奴隶有着不好的历史，但我们先把它放在一边。

If you're a citizen, generalist.

如果你是公民，通才。

You could be expected to be a fighter, a judge, a juror, maybe a general.

你可能会成为一名战士、一名法官、一名陪审员，甚至可能是一名将军。

Dan Shipper: You could expect it to have many different roles inside of your society in your lifetime.

Dan Shipper：你可以预期它在你的一生中会在你的社会中扮演许多不同的角色。

That changed though, because Athens became an empire.

但情况发生了变化，因为雅典成为了一个帝国。

And as it became an empire, if you're going to send a general off to go and invade Sicily or whatever, you want that person to be pretty skilled.

当它成为一个帝国时，如果你要派一位将军去入侵西西里岛或其他地方，你希望那个人非常熟练。

And so it started to break the general kind of thing into people start to have specific roles, and they coordinate with each other and all that kind of stuff, and I think that pattern has actually been really good for developing civilization, but it's also, in a lot of ways, it is not as fun.

所以它开始把一般的事情分解成人们开始扮演特定的角色，他们相互协调以及诸如此类的事情，我认为这种模式实际上对发展文明非常有好处，但从很多方面来说，它也不那么有趣。

It's actually really cool to be a well-rounded person.

成为一个全面发展的人实际上真的很酷。

And I think the interesting thing about AI is that it's a little bit like, you can think of it like having 10,000 PhDs in your pocket.

我认为人工智能的有趣之处在于，它有点像，你可以把它想象成你的口袋里有 10,000 个博士学位。

Dan Shipper: It knows so much about every little branch of human knowledge and every art form and every way of making things or building things, and you just have access to that, so it's doing a lot of the ...

丹·希珀（Dan Shipper）：它对人类知识的每一个小分支、每一种艺术形式以及每一种制造事物或建造事物的方式都了解得很多，你就可以接触到这些，所以它做了很多……

It's good for doing a lot of the specialized tasks that you might've had to spend 10 years getting good at learning about this particular species of cicada, so you know exactly how they reproduce.

它有助于完成许多专门的任务，您可能需要花费 10 年才能熟练地了解这种特定的蝉种类，这样您就可以确切地知道它们是如何繁殖的。

But now, you've got this thing in your pocket that can tell you all about that in any given context at any given time, and so you're empowered to jump a lot more between all those different domains of skill, and you can get more done as, for example, like a founder, where I think we can stay at 15 people much longer than we would be able to.

但现在，你口袋里有了这个东西，它可以在任何给定的时间、任何给定的背景下告诉你所有的信息，所以你有能力在所有这些不同的技能领域之间进行更多的跳跃，你可以做更多的事情，例如，像创始人一样，我认为我们可以在 15 人的情况下保持比我们能够做的更长的时间。

So the people inside of Every can stay generalists for much longer, and I think that that may sort of ripple out into the rest of the economy, where instead of gigantic, massive corporations, where each person is doing one little button turning, you have many more smaller organizations with more generalists, and I think that would actually be a really good thing.

因此，Every 内部的人可以在更长时间内保持通才，我认为这可能会波及到经济的其他领域，在经济的其他领域，而不是巨大的、大规模的公司，每个人都在做一个小小的按钮转动，你有更多更小的组织，有更多的通才，我认为这实际上是一件好事。

Lenny Rachitsky: This reminds me, I was talking to my personal trainer that I'm trying out for a little bit, and she said that she's a very big vision, kind of high-level person, and not good at executing, like we're staying organized, and ChatGPT is such a godsend for her, because she's just like, "Here's what I want to do roughly.

Lenny Rachitsky：这让我想起，我正在和我的私人教练交谈，我正在尝试一点，她说她是一个非常远大的愿景，一种高水平的人，但不擅长执行，就像我们保持组织一样，而 ChatGPT 对她来说真是天赐之物，因为她就像，“这就是我想做的粗略的事情。

Just help me get it done."

只要帮我完成它就可以了。”

Lenny Rachitsky: And so, yeah.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，是的。

And it really made me think about just how much value all this stuff is going to unlock.

这确实让我思考所有这些东西将释放多少价值。

This was amazing.

这太棒了。

It was everything I wanted it to be.

这就是我想要的一切。

But with that, we reached our very exciting lightning round.

但就这样，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Dan, are you ready?

丹，你准备好了吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Here we go.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我们开始吧。

What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？

Dan Shipper: Well, I already recommended one, which is War and Peace.

丹·希珀：嗯，我已经推荐了一本，那就是《战争与和平》。

Definitely got to read that.

一定要读一下。

If you want a like Tolstoy primer, I would read The Death of Ivan Ilyich.

如果你想要一本像托尔斯泰那样的入门读物，我会读《伊凡·伊里奇之死》。

Another good one is A Swim in a Pond in the Rain, which is by George Saunders, and that's a collection of Russian short stories that is also about writing.

另一本好书是乔治·桑德斯的《雨中池塘里游泳》，这是一本俄罗斯短篇小说集，也是关于写作的。

And in particular, I really like the Russians because a lot of the Russian novelists are dealing with the effects of technology on the traditional Russian way of life, and they're very kind of in this really interesting middle ground between a sort of romantic outlook on the world and a more rationalist like, " We're progressing, we're making progress."

特别是，我真的很喜欢俄罗斯人，因为很多俄罗斯小说家都在讨论技术对俄罗斯传统生活方式的影响，他们处于一种非常有趣的中间地带，介于浪漫的世界观和更理性的世界观之间，比如“我们正在进步，我们正在进步。”

Dan Shipper: And that's one of the things you'll find in Anna Karenina, oh, and ...

丹·希珀：这就是你会在《安娜·卡列尼娜》中找到的东西之一，哦，还有......

God, what's the guy's ...

天啊，这家伙到底是什么……

Levin is out in the fields with the peasants, doing the scythe thing.

莱文和农民一起在田里做镰刀的事。

That's Tolstoy kind of thinking about, "Oh, what would it be like, instead of being a nobleman who's trying to make farms way more efficient, I was just like with my scythe, that was really happy?" Anyway, so they're dealing with a lot of similar stuff to, I think AI.

这就是托尔斯泰的想法，“哦，如果我不是一个试图提高农场效率的贵族，而是拿着我的镰刀，那会是什么样子，那真的很快乐？”不管怎样，他们正在处理很多与人工智能类似的事情。

Dan Shipper: The Master and His Emissary is another really good one, and that's about basically how the different hemispheres of the brain view reality.

《丹·希珀：大师与他的使者》是另一部非常好的作品，基本上讲述了大脑不同半球如何看待现实。

It's really, really good, and I think it relates to a lot of AI stuff too.

它真的非常非常好，我认为它也与很多人工智能相关。

Yeah, I think those are my three or four.

是的，我想那是我的三四个。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny Rachitsky: Excellent list.

Lenny Rachitsky：很棒的名单。

I think nobody's mentioned any of these, so that's always a good sign.

我认为没有人提到过这些，所以这总是一个好兆头。

Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？

Dan Shipper: Yes.

丹·希珀：是的。

I really love Deadwood.

我真的很喜欢戴德伍德。

Have you seen it?

你见过吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: I absolutely love it.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我非常喜欢它。

I remember when they stopped it for some reason.

我记得他们出于某种原因停止了它。

I think he had to go do something else at HBO.

我认为他必须去 HBO 做点别的事情。

It was so sad.

太悲伤了。

Dan Shipper: David Milch is incredible, national treasure, incredible writer.

丹·希珀：大卫·米尔奇是一位不可思议的国宝级作家。

But what I really love about it, and I only recently watched it, is he talks about Deadwood being about how order forms out of chaos.

但我真正喜欢它的是他谈论戴德伍德是如何从混乱中形成秩序的，而且我最近才看了它。

So it's this like frontier town, people are going to it, and there's no law, there's no rules.

这就像边疆小镇一样，人们都会去那里，没有法律，没有规则。

And by season three, there's a mayor, and all the industry has come in, and it's like a real proper town, and I just love that.

到了第三季，市长出现了，所有的行业都进来了，这就像一个真正的小镇，我就是喜欢这样。

And I think there's a lot of parallels from the Western frontier to technology frontiers, and so I think that show is a really interesting study in that kind of dynamic.

我认为西方前沿和技术前沿有很多相似之处，所以我认为这个节目是对这种动态的一次非常有趣的研究。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love how everything connects to how tech works and how AI came to be.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢一切与技术的运作方式以及人工智能的诞生方式之间的联系。

I love this.

我喜欢这个。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?

Lenny Rachitsky：您最近发现有一款您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Dan Shipper: I don't have a good answer for that because I just spent a lot of time using our internal products, but my stock answer is Granola.

Dan Shipper：对此我没有一个好的答案，因为我花了很多时间使用我们的内部产品，但我的标准答案是格兰诺拉麦片。

So I do really love Granola.

所以我真的很喜欢格兰诺拉麦片。

My one gripe with them, and I hope they listen to this podcast, is I really want to export all my notes.

我对他们的一个抱怨是，我真的想导出我所有的笔记，我希望他们听这个播客。

I want an API, but other than that, I think it's a fantastic product.

我想要一个 API，但除此之外，我认为这是一个很棒的产品。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is definitely the most mentioned product in this segment for the past couple months, so good job, Granola.

Lenny Rachitsky：这绝对是过去几个月该领域中被提及最多的产品，干得好，格兰诺拉麦片。

I can't help but mention, you get a year free of Granola if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter.

我忍不住要提一下，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年的免费格兰诺拉麦片。

Well, what a freaking deal.

嗯，真是一笔了不起的交易。

And not just you, but your whole company gets free Granola for a year.

不仅是您，您的整个公司都可以免费获得一年的格兰诺拉麦片。

What a deal.

多么划算啊。

Dan Shipper: This is not a paid promotion by me.

Dan Shipper：这不是我的付费促销。

That's just how I feel.

这就是我的感受。

So I'm glad it's part of the bundle.

所以我很高兴它是捆绑包的一部分。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, incredible.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的，难以置信。

Okay.

好的。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find useful in work or in life?

您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，经常回来发现它对工作或生活有用？

Dan Shipper: So basically, I use ChatGPT all the time, and it has memory.

Dan Shipper：所以基本上，我一直使用 ChatGPT，而且它有内存。

So I was like, "I'm going on Lenny's podcast.

所以我想，“我要去听莱尼的播客。

What would my life motto be?," and it said, "Your life motto is witness deeply, build bravely.

我的人生座右铭是什么？”上面写道，“你的人生座右铭是深刻见证，勇敢建设。

You prize slow, attentive seeing, whether it's reading Tolstoy, tracking meditation themes, or X-raying a David Milch paragraph." So it's hitting all the stuff I just mentioned, which is really funny.

你珍视缓慢而专注的观察，无论是阅读托尔斯泰、跟踪冥想主题，还是浏览大卫·米尔奇的段落。”所以它击中了我刚才提到的所有内容，这真的很有趣。

Dan Shipper: And then, Build bravely, you turn those insights into concrete things, like Every in Quora and longform essays and all that kind of stuff.

Dan Shipper：然后，勇敢地构建，将这些见解转化为具体的东西，比如 Quora 中的 Every 和长篇文章等等。

So I think there's something about that.

所以我认为这是有道理的。

Actually, this reminds me, this actually reminds me of the actual motto, which is ...

事实上，这让我想起，这实际上让我想起了真正的座右铭，那就是……

And I didn't come up with this.

这不是我想出来的。

I think it's like Pliny the Younger said, "Do things worth writing about, and write things worth reading." Seems like a pretty good summation.

我想就像小普林尼说的，“做值得写的事，写值得读的事”。看起来是一个很好的总结。

Lenny Rachitsky: Do things worth writing about and read things worth reading.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：做值得写的事，读值得读的事。

Lenny Rachitsky: Write things worth reading.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：写一些值得一读的东西。

That should be the motto of both of our newsletters.

这应该是我们两份时事通讯的座右铭。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is really good.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：那真是太好了。

Okay.

好的。

And by the way, I love that you asked ChatGPT, "What's my life motto?"

顺便说一句，我喜欢你问 ChatGPT，“我的人生座右铭是什么？”

Dan Shipper: And wait, this is interesting.

Dan Shipper：等等，这很有趣。

So it didn't give me the answer, but inspired the answer.

所以它没有给我答案，但却启发了我答案。

Dan Shipper: And I think that's actually exactly how I use it.

Dan Shipper：我认为这实际上正是我使用它的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Wow.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇。

It's an extension of our brains already.

它已经是我们大脑的延伸。

Lenny Rachitsky: Last question.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：最后一个问题。

I was reading somewhere, where you wrote that you stopped writing at one point.

我在某处读到，你写道你曾一度停止写作。

You were just like, "I need to do other things, I need to build this company," and then you realize, "I need to get back to writing," because things started going sideways.

你就像，“我需要做其他事情，我需要建立这家公司，”然后你意识到，“我需要重新开始写作”，因为事情开始出现问题。

And I feel like this is such an interesting corollary to a lot of the stuff you talked about, of just things that make you happy, stay close to enjoy.

我觉得这是你谈论的很多事情的一个非常有趣的推论，只是让你快乐、靠近享受的事情。

Just share what happened there, because I didn't know that.

只是分享那里发生的事情，因为我不知道。

Dan Shipper: This is definitely not a lightning round thing, so I'll expound, but I'll try to do it as quickly as possible.

Dan Shipper：这绝对不是一个闪电般的事情，所以我会解释一下，但我会尽力尽快做到这一点。

Dan Shipper: I think generally, when you're building a company, even if you do it the way that I do it or did it, which is you don't raise a lot of money and you try to stay in control, there's a big temptation to try to run the company in the way you think you should.

丹·希珀：我认为，一般来说，当你建立一家公司时，即使你按照我的方式去做，即你没有筹集很多资金并且你试图保持控制，也会有很大的诱惑去尝试以你认为应该的方式经营公司。

And I have this weird thing where I'm like, "I really love writing, but I also really love business," and there were not a lot of models for me of people who had successful businesses that were also writers.

我有一个奇怪的事情，我就像，“我真的很喜欢写作，但我也真的很喜欢商业”，对于我来说，那些拥有成功企业同时也是作家的人的榜样并不多。

It turns out there are, but I didn't know about that for a while.

事实证明是有的，但我有一段时间不知道。

And so early on at Every, it was growing really well, because I was writing a lot, and Nathan was writing a lot.

在Every早期，它发展得非常好，因为我写了很多，内森也写了很多。

And when I stopped writing, the business didn't work as well because media businesses don't follow the same pattern as tech startups, because if you're a media business and you are a founder who then hires people to make the product, which is right, if you have product market fit before, you lose it, and maybe you hire people that are good writers, but that's hard.

当我停止写作时，业务运作得不太好，因为媒体业务不遵循与科技初创公司相同的模式，因为如果你是一家媒体公司，你是一位创始人，然后雇用人员来制造产品，这是正确的，如果你之前有适合市场的产品，你就会失去它，也许你会雇用优秀作家的人，但这很难。

It's total opposite pattern for startups.

对于初创公司来说，这是完全相反的模式。

So you build the first version of the product, and then you hire people to build the rest of it, and so that's what I did.

因此，您构建了产品的第一个版本，然后雇用人员来构建其余部分，这就是我所做的。

And I also really struggled with, "Okay, what are the implications for that and for my career," and I think it was hard for me to admit, like I actually want to write because I just didn't have any examples of someone being the kind of writer that I wanted to be.

我也真的很挣扎，“好吧，这对我的职业生涯有什么影响，”我想我很难承认，就像我真的想写作一样，因为我没有任何例子表明某人是我想成为的那种作家。

And what's really interesting is three years into the business ...

真正有趣的是进入这个行业三年了......

The business has been pretty flat.

生意一直很平淡。

Dan Shipper: I was pretty miserable because I was not doing the thing that I really wanted to do, and I asked ChatGPT, I was like, "Are there any examples of writers that have built businesses?" And it was like, "Yeah, Joel Spolsky, who built Trello and Stack Overflow.

Dan Shipper：我非常痛苦，因为我没有做我真正想做的事情，我问 ChatGPT，我想，“有没有什么作家创办了企业的例子？”就像，“是的，Joel Spolsky，他创建了 Trello 和 Stack Overflow。

There's Jason Fried who I've known for a long time, and I've always looked up to, but I forgot about in this context.

我认识贾森·弗里德（Jason Fried）很长时间了，我一直很尊敬他，但我在这种情况下忘记了他。

There is Sam Harris who's got a great podcast, and he's got a gigantic meditation app.

萨姆·哈里斯（Sam Harris）有一个很棒的播客，他有一个巨大的冥想应用程序。

There is Bill Simmons, who's incredible podcaster and also built The Ringer, sold to Spotify for a couple hundred million bucks.

Bill Simmons 是一位令人难以置信的播客主播，他还制作了 The Ringer，并以几亿美元的价格卖给了 Spotify。

Dan Shipper: There's a lot of these people, and there are patterns that they use to build companies that are pretty well-understood.

Dan Shipper：这样的人有很多，他们用来建立公司的模式是非常容易理解的。

They're just not typical Silicon Valley patterns.

它们并不是典型的硅谷模式。

And so I was like, "Cool.

所以我就想，“酷。

I just want to be a writer.

我只想成为一名作家。

I think it'll be really fun."

我想这会非常有趣。”

Dan Shipper: And so I sort of flipped.

丹·希珀：所以我有点翻转了。

I still have the builder, entrepreneur, founder part of my identity, but I sort of flipped it to be like writing is at the center, and I'm unapologetic about it, and that's actually good for the business.

我的身份中仍然有建设者、企业家、创始人的部分，但我把它颠倒过来，就像写作是中心一样，我对此毫无歉意，这实际上对业务有好处。

It's good for me and it's good for the business.

这对我有好处，对企业也有好处。

And the more I've leaned into that, doing the thing that ...

我越是倾向于这样做，做的事情......

If you told anyone that you're starting a business, where it's like, "Well, we're going to be a newsletter, and we're going to incubate all these apps, and we're going to do consulting and whatever," they would be like, "You're nuts."

如果你告诉任何人你正在创业，就像是，“好吧，我们将成为一份新闻通讯，我们将孵化所有这些应用程序，我们将提供咨询服务等等，”他们会说，“你疯了。”

Dan Shipper: "Everyone wants to do that.

丹·希珀：“每个人都想这么做。

Of course, Every founder wants to do that, but you have to focus.

当然，每个创始人都想这样做，但你必须集中精力。

You can't write, whatever." But every time I've kind of just leaned into something that feels like the most, the ultimate luxury of my hidden secret desire, it's actually worked a lot better, and I think you end up ...

无论如何，你不能写作。”但每次我只是倾向于某种感觉最棒的东西，我隐藏的秘密欲望的终极奢侈，它实际上效果更好，我认为你最终......

What it really is, is there's a huge tax to doing something every day that you don't quite like that much, or you're not quite a fit for, and by sort of giving into those secret desires, you end up finding a shape for the work that you do and the business that you build that is good for you, and that's always going to be a somewhat unique shape from other businesses that have been built.

事实上，每天做一些你不太喜欢或不太适合的事情会带来巨大的负担，通过屈服于这些秘密的愿望，你最终会找到一种对你所做的工作和你建立的业务有利的模式，而这总是与其他已建立的业务有些独特的模式。

Dan Shipper: It's always going to rhyme with other things, but I think finding that unique shape, instead of just kind of cargo culting, like what you think a company should look like is definitely a much better way to be successful, and it's also a much better way to live.

Dan Shipper：它总是会与其他事物押韵，但我认为找到独特的形状，而不仅仅是一种货物崇拜，就像你认为公司应该是什么样子那样，绝对是一种更好的成功方式，也是一种更好的生活方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think this is going to hit hard with a lot of people who are listening, who are maybe founders or want to be founders, and this resonates with a lot of people that have been on this podcast sharing similar lessons.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为这会对很多正在倾听的人造成沉重打击，他们可能是创始人或想成为创始人，这引起了很多在这个播客上分享类似经验的人的共鸣。

Dan, this was incredible.

丹，这太不可思议了。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks check out Every, find you online, and how can listeners be useful to you?

人们可以在哪里查看Every，在线找到您，以及听众如何对您有用？

Dan Shipper: So you can find us at every.to.

Dan Shipper：所以您可以在任何地方找到我们。

I'm also on Twitter at @danshipper.

我还在推特上@danshipper。

You can go there to check out our products, our newsletter, if you want to stay on top of AI, all that kind of stuff.

如果你想掌握人工智能的最新动态，你可以去那里查看我们的产品、我们的时事通讯。

I also have a podcast.

我也有一个播客。

It's called AI and I.

这就是所谓的人工智能和我。

Dan Shipper: You can find it on YouTube and on Spotify.

Dan Shipper：您可以在 YouTube 和 Spotify 上找到它。

And how can people be useful?

人怎样才能成为有用的人呢？

Honestly, I think that the most useful thing for someone like me, based on what I want to do, is I want people to find interesting, cool ways to use AI that actually helps make their lives better.

老实说，我认为对于像我这样的人来说，最有用的事情是，基于我想做的事情，我希望人们找到有趣、很酷的方式来使用人工智能，这实际上有助于改善他们的生活。

So just go do that, and tell me about it, and I think that'll be great, and so-

所以就去做吧，然后告诉我，我认为那会很棒，所以-

Lenny Rachitsky: What's the best way to tell you?

Lenny Rachitsky：告诉你的最好方式是什么？

Is it comments on your YouTube show?

这是对你的 YouTube 节目的评论吗？

Is it emailing you, DM you?

是发邮件给你，DM你吗？

Dan Shipper: If you subscribe to Every, you can also reply to those emails, and they eventually get forwarded to me.

Dan Shipper：如果您订阅 Every，您还可以回复这些电子邮件，它们最终会转发给我。

So tweet me.

所以发推文给我。

Reply to Every.

回复每一个。

And if you want to comment on YouTube, great.

如果您想在 YouTube 上发表评论，那就太好了。

I'm not in the YouTube comments as much as I should be, though.

不过，我在 YouTube 评论中的频率并没有达到应有的水平。

Lenny Rachitsky: Don't do that.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：别那样做。

Maybe don't do that.

也许不要这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。

Well, Dan, this was incredible.

嗯，丹，这太不可思议了。

Thank you so much for sharing.

非常感谢您的分享。

Thanks for being here.

感谢您来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye, everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。