Daniel Lereya
Daniel Lereya: ...
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：...
8:00 PM basically for me is someone that is relentless until he gets this impact, until he validates that this impact is in place.
晚上 8:00 对我来说基本上是一个坚持不懈的人，直到他获得这种影响，直到他验证这种影响已经到位。
In some cases, doing the biggest impact is not developing another feature, it's about making the current value more accessible.
在某些情况下，产生最大影响的不是开发另一个功能，而是让当前的价值更容易获得。
Lenny Rachitsky: You've been at this for eight years, you said there's 250,000 customers at this point.
Lenny Rachitsky：您从事这行已经八年了，您说目前有 250,000 名客户。
What would you say is the most counterintuitive thing you've learned through this journey of building Monday?
您认为您在周一的构建之旅中学到的最违反直觉的事情是什么？
Daniel Lereya: We really have an approach of very radical transparency about everything.
Daniel Lereya：我们确实对所有事情都采取了非常彻底的透明度方法。
Before we went public, we actually shared every bit of information with our employees.
在我们上市之前，我们实际上与我们的员工分享了所有信息。
Instead of demoralizing people, I think that this is something that gives them a sense of deep partnership.
我认为这不会让人们士气低落，而是给他们一种深厚的伙伴关系感。
We really want everyone's brains in the challenge, and not just one centralized brain and a lot of working hands.
我们真的希望每个人都能参与到挑战中，而不仅仅是一个集中的大脑和大量的工作人员。
Lenny Rachitsky: You basically realized that your competitors were shipping a lot faster than you were, that made you shift the way you think about product and the way you operate.
Lenny Rachitsky：你基本上意识到你的竞争对手的发货速度比你快得多，这让你改变了你对产品和运营方式的思考方式。
Daniel Lereya: Some of our competitors did something that we can only imagine.
Daniel Lereya：我们的一些竞争对手做了一些我们只能想象的事情。
We said, "Okay.
我们说：“好吧。
We need to treat it differently." We received a gift from our competitors.
我们需要以不同的方式对待它。”我们收到了竞争对手的礼物。
They showed us that it's possible.
他们向我们展示了这是可能的。
Use your competition, know it, and take it, and set ambitious goals, and believe in yourself, and you can do amazing things.
利用你的竞争，了解它，接受它，设定雄心勃勃的目标，相信自己，你就能做出惊人的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Today, my guest is Daniel Lereya.
Lenny Rachitsky：今天，我的客人是 Daniel Lereya。
Daniel's currently chief product and technology officer at Monday.com.
Daniel 目前担任 Monday.com 的首席产品和技术官。
He joined when they were just around 40 employees.
他加入时，公司只有大约 40 名员工。
And, a few years in, Daniel and the exec team realized that their competitors were able to move a lot faster than they were and ship a lot more often than they were, and that's spurred a transformation in how they build and operate their teams.
几年后，丹尼尔和执行团队意识到，他们的竞争对手能够比他们更快地行动，并且比他们更频繁地发货，这促使他们在构建和运营团队的方式上进行了转变。
Very few companies are able to transform like this, and even fewer recognize that something is wrong.
很少有公司能够实现这样的转型，更没有多少公司能够认识到问题所在。
In our conversation, Daniel shares a bunch of very specific insights and suggestions into how to go about making change or even recognizing that something is wrong.
在我们的谈话中，丹尼尔分享了一系列非常具体的见解和建议，涉及如何做出改变，甚至认识到某些问题。
Daniel shares moments when it felt like everything was going to crumble.
丹尼尔分享了感觉一切都将崩溃的时刻。
Why it's important to know that the skills that got you to where you're today aren't the skills that are going to take you to the next level.
为什么重要的是要知道让您达到今天水平的技能并不是将您带到下一个水平的技能。
Why it's so important to orient all your teams around impact and so much more.
为什么让所有团队以影响力为导向如此重要？
Lenny Rachitsky: If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of paid accounts at Superhuman, Linear, Notion, Granola, and Perplexity Pro.
此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费的 Super human、Linear、Notion、Granola 和 Perplexity Pro 付费帐户。
Check it out at lennysnewsletter.com and click Bundle.
请访问 lennysnewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。
With that, I bring you, Daniel Lereya.
就这样，我带你来了，丹尼尔·莱雷亚。
This episode is brought to you by Enterpret.
本集由 Enterpret 为您带来。
Enterpret unifies all your customer interactions, from Gong calls, to Zendesk tickets, to Twitter threads, to App Store reviews, and makes it available for analysis.
Enterpret 统一了所有客户交互，从 Kong 通话、Zendesk 票证、Twitter 线程、App Store 评论，并可供分析。
It's trusted by leading product orgs like Canva, Notion, Loom, Linear, Monday.com, and Strava to bring the voice of the customer into the product development process, helping you build best-in-class products faster.
它受到 Canva、Notion、Loom、Linear、Monday.com 和 Strava 等领先产品组织的信赖，可将客户的声音纳入产品开发流程，帮助您更快地构建一流的产品。
Lenny Rachitsky: What makes Enterpret special is its ability to build and update customer-specific AI models that provide the most granular and accurate insights into your business, connect customer insights to revenue and operational data in your CRM or data warehouse to map the business impact of each customer need and prioritize confidently, and empower your entire team to easily take action on use cases, like win-loss analysis, critical bug detection, and identifying drivers of churn, with Enterpret's AI systems wisdom.
Lenny Rachitsky：Enterpret 的独特之处在于它能够构建和更新特定于客户的 AI 模型，为您的业务提供最精细、最准确的洞察，将客户洞察与 CRM 或数据仓库中的收入和运营数据联系起来，以映射每个客户需求的业务影响并自信地确定优先级，并让您的整个团队能够利用 Enterpret 的 AI 系统智慧轻松对用例采取行动，例如赢利分析、关键错误检测和识别客户流失的驱动因素。
Looking to automate your feedback loops and prioritize your roadmap with confidence like Notion, Canva, and Linear?
希望像 Notion、Canva 和 Linear 这样自动化反馈循环并自信地确定路线图的优先级？
Visit E-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T.com/lenny to connect with the team and to get two free months when you sign up for an annual plan.
请访问 E-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T.com/lenny 与团队联系，并在注册年度计划后免费获得两个月。
This is a limited time offer that's enterpret.com/lenny.
这是 enterpret.com/lenny 的限时优惠。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Airtable Product Central, the unified system that brings your entire product organization together in one place.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Airtable Product Central 为您带来，这是一个将您的整个产品组织集中到一个地方的统一系统。
No more scattered tools, no more misaligned teams.
不再有分散的工具，不再有不一致的团队。
If you're like most product leaders, you're tired of constant context switching between tools.
如果您像大多数产品负责人一样，您就会厌倦工具之间不断的上下文切换。
That's why Airtable built Product Central after decades of working with world-class product companies.
这就是 Airtable 在与世界一流产品公司合作数十年后建立 Product Central 的原因。
Think of it as mission control for your entire product organization.
将其视为整个产品组织的任务控制。
Unlike Rigid Point Solutions, Product Central powers everything, from resourcing, to voice of customer, to road mapping, to launch execution.
与刚性点解决方案不同，产品中心为一切提供支持，从资源、客户声音、路线图到启动执行。
And because it's built on Airtable's no-code platform, you can customize every workflow to match exactly how your team works.
由于它建立在 Airtable 的无代码平台上，因此您可以自定义每个工作流程以完全匹配您团队的工作方式。
No limitations, no compromises.
没有限制，没有妥协。
Ready to see it in action?
准备好看看它的实际效果了吗？
Head to airtable.com/lenny to book a demo.
前往airtable.com/lenny 预订演示。
That's airtable.com/lenny.
这是airtable.com/lenny。
Lenny Rachitsky: Daniel, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Lenny Rachitsky：丹尼尔，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Daniel Lereya: Thank you so much for having me.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：非常感谢您邀请我。
Lenny Rachitsky: We're going to get into the story of Monday.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们将讨论星期一的故事。
We're going to talk about your journey over the last eight years, building and scaling this company, and all the things you've learned along the way.
我们将谈论您在过去八年中建立和扩展这家公司的旅程，以及您在此过程中学到的所有东西。
But I want to start with a very specific moment that you shared with me, where you basically realized that your competitors were shipping a lot faster than you were, able to get stuff out a lot more quickly and more often than you guys, and that made you shift the way you think about product and the way you operate.
但我想从您与我分享的一个非常具体的时刻开始，您基本上意识到您的竞争对手的发货速度比您快得多，能够比你们更快、更频繁地发货，这让您改变了对产品和运营方式的思考方式。
Can you talk about that moment, and that lesson, and what you took away from that?
你能谈谈那一刻、那一课以及你从中得到的收获吗？
Daniel Lereya: Yeah.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：是的。
Well, you take me a while back.
好吧，你带我回去一会儿。
I think it was when we were relatively a small team.
我想那是在我们还是一个相对较小的团队的时候。
I think we were something around 30 people.
我想我们大约有 30 人。
And, including engineers, and product, and everyone, it's actually that back in the days we did so many things.
而且，包括工程师、产品、所有人，实际上我们在那个时代做了很多事情。
And, actually, we had an amazing, amazing execution.
事实上，我们的执行力非常惊人。
We had a weekly update.
我们每周更新一次。
We would share everything that we did with the company and it was always super long and super...
我们会分享我们与公司所做的一切，而且总是超级长、超级......
We had so many different things.
我们有很多不同的事情。
And, we really felt good about ourselves at that point, to be honest, about the execution.
而且，说实话，我们当时对自己的执行感觉确实很好。
Daniel Lereya: And then, I remember, one day, coming to the office and just looking on one of our competitors, and at Monday we have one of the main things that we have in the product is our boards.
Daniel Lereya：然后，我记得有一天，我来到办公室，只是看着我们的一个竞争对手，周一我们产品中的主要内容之一就是我们的董事会。
It's the heart and soul of the product.
它是产品的核心和灵魂。
And, you can think about it as a table, and it has different column types, data types that you can capture within the board and work with.
而且，您可以将其视为一个表，它具有不同的列类型和数据类型，您可以在板上捕获并使用它们。
And, back then, we had five of these.
那时，我们有五个。
And, I was actually coding the sixth one, to be honest.
而且，说实话，我实际上正在编写第六个代码。
And, each and every one of these took us four months to develop together with defining the product and everything.
而且，每一项都花了我们四个月的时间来共同开发，并定义产品和一切。
And, this morning, we actually saw that one of our main competitors back then has actually launched 30 new columns.
而且，今天早上，我们实际上看到我们当时的主要竞争对手之一实际上推出了 30 个新专栏。
Daniel Lereya: Yeah.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：是的。
And, we said, "Okay..." At first, we didn't really know what to do.
然后，我们说，“好吧……”起初，我们真的不知道该怎么做。
And, we thought about it and I remember that we said, "Okay, we're going to take even some time out of the office.
而且，我们考虑了一下，我记得我们说：“好吧，我们甚至要离开办公室一段时间。
So back then, Roy and Eran, which are the founders, and also together with me and Tal, which was one of the main tech leads in Monday for a long time, and few others, we went outside the office and we said, "Listen, we need to do things differently.
所以当时，创始人罗伊和埃兰，还有我和塔尔，周一很长一段时间以来的主要技术负责人之一，以及其他几个人，我们走出办公室说，“听着，我们需要以不同的方式做事。
Something doesn't make sense." And, I remember back then that for me this realization of, understanding that we're doing so much, but suddenly, some of our competitors did something that we can only imagine, and actually transform the product, because it's a different platform, if you think about it.
有些东西没有意义。”而且，我记得当时对我来说这种认识，理解我们做了这么多，但突然间，我们的一些竞争对手做了一些我们只能想象的事情，并且实际上改变了产品，因为如果你仔细想想，它是一个不同的平台。
It was really hard.
真的很难。
Personally, first of all, admitting that although you worked like crazy, you didn't do something that really transformed the product.
就我个人而言，首先承认虽然你疯狂工作，但你并没有做任何真正改变产品的事情。
Daniel Lereya: Because, I remember back then, when we did a conversation, we said, "Okay.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：因为，我记得当时，当我们谈话时，我们说，“好吧。
We're doing so much.
我们做了这么多。
What is the most meaningful thing that we did over the last three months?" And suddenly, the answer was, "There's so many things." But it wasn't something specific.
过去三个月我们做的最有意义的事情是什么？”突然间，答案是，“有很多事情。”但这并不是什么具体的事情。
And after acknowledging that, it's a very hard thing personally, especially when you walk so hard and you put your entire heart in what you do, we said, "Okay.
在承认这一点之后，这对我个人来说是一件非常困难的事情，尤其是当你走得很艰难并且全身心投入到你所做的事情时，我们说，“好吧。
Now, we need to treat it differently.
现在，我们需要以不同的方式对待它。
We received a gift from our competitors, they showed us that it's possible.
我们收到了竞争对手的礼物，他们向我们展示了这是可能的。
Now, we need to think how.
现在，我们需要思考如何做。
And in order to do that, we need to think differently." Because we said, "Okay.
为了做到这一点，我们需要以不同的方式思考。”因为我们说，“好吧。
If we're going to add 25 more, multiply it by four months, we're a small team, we are lost.
如果我们要再增加 25 个，乘以四个月，我们是一个小团队，我们就会迷失方向。
Okay, we can't make it." So we said, "Okay, we need to take upon ourselves an ambitious goal, like 25 columns in one month." And this is the goal that we took upon ourselves.
好吧，我们做不到。”所以我们说，“好吧，我们需要为自己设定一个雄心勃勃的目标，比如一个月内出版 25 篇专栏。”这就是我们为自己设定的目标。
Daniel Lereya: And, I think that the fact that our competitors did it, it didn't give us the excuse of saying, "It's not possible." So in a way, it was the biggest favor that we can ask for.
Daniel Lereya：而且，我认为我们的竞争对手做到了这一点，但这并没有给我们借口说“这是不可能的”。所以在某种程度上，这是我们能要求的最大的帮助。
And, long story short, month and a half afterwards, we had 30 columns in Monday.
长话短说，一个半月后，我们周一就有了 30 篇专栏。
And, we did it by thinking totally different.
而且，我们是通过完全不同的思维来做到这一点的。
And by the way, afterwards, we did it over and over again.
顺便说一下，后来我们一遍又一遍地这样做。
So if you think about Monday, it's basically a platform for work and you have different building blocks, columns is one of them, but we did the same deal exactly with dashboards and widgets, and then with automations, and so on.
因此，如果你想想星期一，它基本上是一个工作平台，你有不同的构建块，列就是其中之一，但我们对仪表板和小部件做了同样的处理，然后是自动化等等。
So I think this was so transformative, because, A, we understood that you need to constantly think, especially at these phases, how would you transform completely the product in the next three months?
所以我认为这非常具有变革性，因为，A，我们知道你需要不断思考，特别是在这些阶段，你将如何在接下来的三个月内彻底改变产品？
Daniel Lereya: And if you can't answer that and you say, "Listen, I'm doing so much." But you can't point this exact thing, you have a focus problem in my eyes.
Daniel Lereya：如果你无法回答这个问题，你会说：“听着，我做了很多事情。”但你不能指出这个确切的东西，你在我的眼睛里有焦点问题。
And second is that put ambitious goals, it'll make you think differently.
其次，设定雄心勃勃的目标，它会让你以不同的方式思考。
And, we really love now to do it even when we don't know it's possible and it actually works for us time after time.
而且，我们现在真的很喜欢这样做，即使我们不知道这是可能的，而且它实际上一次又一次地对我们有效。
And, let's think about it.
而且，让我们考虑一下。
The team that was there suddenly became invincible, because it's such an amazing, amazing experience that you have a goal that you don't know how you're going to do it and you succeed, and then it makes you feel that everything is possible.
那里的团队突然变得所向披靡，因为这是一种非常奇妙的经历，你有一个目标，你不知道你要怎么做，然后你就成功了，然后它让你觉得一切皆有可能。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's so much here.
Lenny Rachitsky：这里有很多东西。
And, I have so many threads I want to follow on.
而且，我有很多想要关注的话题。
One is just, there's this metaphor of the four-minute mile, where no one thought it was possible, and then someone did it, and then everyone started beating that record.
一个是，有一个四分钟一英里的比喻，没有人认为这是可能的，然后有人做到了，然后每个人都开始打破那个记录。
So I like that this is highlighting, there's just so much power in seeing somebody else accomplish something you thought was impossible, and that unlocks the way you think.
所以我喜欢这个强调，看到别人完成你认为不可能的事情有很大的力量，这会释放你的思维方式。
And, I love that you saw it as a gift.
而且，我喜欢你把它视为一份礼物。
A lot of companies do this, they're in this place and they're like, "No way." It's like when the iPhone launch like, "No one needs that.
很多公司都这样做，他们在这个地方，他们就像，“不可能。”就像当 iPhone 推出时，“没有人需要它。
There's no keyboard." And a lot of people deny that it's a thing they should be paying attention to.
没有键盘。”很多人否认这是他们应该关注的事情。
I love that you saw it as like, "Okay, we need to move.
我喜欢你这样认为：“好吧，我们需要搬家。
Things have changed.
事情已经改变了。
We're not doing things.
我们不是在做事。
We're not going to be competitive long-term."
从长远来看，我们不会具有竞争力。”
Daniel Lereya: I think it's also very much about focus.
Daniel Lereya：我认为这也与专注有关。
And I think that it's very hard to get to very good execution, but it doesn't guarantee that you are working in the right way.
我认为很难获得很好的执行力，但这并不能保证你以正确的方式工作。
And many times, in my eyes, simple questions can provide the most and the deepest insights about your work.
很多时候，在我看来，简单的问题可以提供关于你的工作最多、最深刻的见解。
And I think that, for us, the fact that we managed to leverage it, as you said, and see it as a gift is one of the most important things.
我认为，对我们来说，正如您所说，我们设法利用它，并将其视为一份礼物，这是最重要的事情之一。
Use your competition, know it, use it to your advantage, and take it, and set ambitious goals, and believe in yourself, and you can do amazing things.
利用你的竞争对手，了解它，利用它为你带来优势，抓住它，设定雄心勃勃的目标，相信自己，你就能做出惊人的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Another, I think, piece a lot of people are probably resonating with here is starting a company that's small, growing, things are going great, and then all of a sudden, things start to slow down.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为，另一个可能引起很多人共鸣的事情是创办一家小型公司，一直在成长，事情进展顺利，然后突然间，事情开始放缓。
And, in some cases, you don't realize that they've slowed down.
而且，在某些情况下，您没有意识到它们已经放慢了速度。
And, that's what happened in your case.
而且，这就是你的案例中发生的情况。
Sounds like in a lot of cases, the founder's like, "What the hell's going on?
听起来在很多情况下，创始人都会说，“到底发生了什么事？
Why is it taking three or four weeks to ship one of..." Whatever you call them.
为什么要花三四个星期才能运送其中一件……”无论你怎么称呼它们。
And so, is there anything...
那么，有没有什么...
By the way, what was the scale of the company at this point?
顺便问一下，当时公司的规模是多少？
Daniel Lereya: It's a good question.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：这是个好问题。
If I'm not mistaken, it was around 2018 back then, it's safe to assume 150, 200 people in the company.
如果我没记错的话，当时是 2018 年左右，可以安全地假设公司有 150 到 200 人。
But, we were relatively small.
但是，我们规模相对较小。
Lenny Rachitsky: I recently had Ryan Singer on the podcast who created the Shape Up method from Basecamp, and that's his piece of advice too is around 50 to 100 people things start to really change, and slow down, and that's where a lot of companies start to go sideways.
Lenny Rachitsky：我最近在播客中邀请了 Ryan Singer，他从 Basecamp 创建了 Shape Up 方法，这也是他的建议，大约 50 到 100 人的时候，事情开始真正发生变化，并放缓速度，这就是很多公司开始偏离方向的地方。
So that resonates.
所以这引起了共鸣。
That's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
And by the way, these columns you're describing, just to make it clear, this is a new data, new format of column, it's a new data format that you're building.
顺便说一句，您所描述的这些列只是为了明确说明，这是一种新数据、新列格式，这是您正在构建的一种新数据格式。
It's not like, just add another column to some database.
这不像只是向某个数据库添加另一列。
Daniel Lereya: Yeah.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：是的。
So actually, exactly.
事实上，确实如此。
It's a new column, but it's a whole product around it.
这是一个新专栏，但它是围绕它的完整产品。
If you think about it, for instance, you have a column that dates, so it's pretty straightforward, but you can also have formula column, which is more complicated and has more complex product around it.
例如，如果您考虑一下，您有一个日期列，因此它非常简单，但您也可以有公式列，该列更复杂并且周围有更复杂的产品。
I think, one of the best benefits for us as platform is that suddenly when we set the goal of adding so many different columns, we actually stopped for the first time and say, "What is the column like?" And we also organized all the product architecture around it.
我认为，作为平台，对我们来说最好的好处之一是，突然间，当我们设定了添加如此多不同专栏的目标时，我们实际上第一次停下来问，“专栏是什么样的？”我们还围绕它组织了所有的产品架构。
And, these things sounds really trivial in retrospect, but we really define, "Okay, each column need to have specific capabilities.
而且，回想起来，这些事情听起来确实微不足道，但我们确实定义了：“好吧，每个列都需要具有特定的功能。
It should be able to export it to Excel.
它应该能够将其导出到 Excel。
It should be able to be filtered and sorted." And so many different other things.
它应该能够被过滤和排序。”还有很多不同的东西。
But basically, we defined what is it, and then create an infrastructure for all these shared things, making the work of adding a new column just thinking about the specific product that you want to provide with each one of these columns.
但基本上，我们定义了它是什么，然后为所有这些共享的东西创建一个基础设施，使得添加新列的工作只需考虑您想要为每个列提供的特定产品。
Daniel Lereya: And the story about it is actually even more interesting.
Daniel Lereya：关于它的故事实际上更有趣。
The way we actually achieved it is that we said, "Okay.
我们实际实现这一目标的方式是我们说：“好吧。
In two weeks, we're going to have a hackathon, in which, each one of our developers is going to take one column and implement it in one day." And, if you think about it, from four months to one day, it's mind-blowing.
两周后，我们将举办一场黑客马拉松，其中，我们的每位开发人员都将选择一个专栏并在一天内实现它。”而且，如果你仔细想想，从四个月到一天，这真是令人兴奋。
And, back then, I remember, people said, "How can it be?" But then, I told you about build an infrastructure, he sent it to me.
我记得当时人们说：“怎么可能？”但后来，我告诉你有关建设基础设施的事情，他把它发给了我。
I did a column at night, just to see how it works.
我晚上写了一篇专栏，只是想看看它是如何运作的。
And, on the day that we did the columns, everyone knew what they're going to do, what they're trying to solve, and we just did it.
而且，在我们撰写专栏的那天，每个人都知道他们要做什么，他们要解决什么问题，我们就这么做了。
And, two weeks afterwards it was in production, which was amazing.
两周后，它就投入生产了，这真是太棒了。
Lenny Rachitsky: What we want to do here is help people avoid these moments where they're almost too late and realizing that things have slowed down.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们想要做的是帮助人们避免那些几乎为时已晚并意识到事情已经放缓的时刻。
So I think really another important lesson here is the power of ambition and thinking crazily big.
所以我认为这里的另一个重要教训是野心和疯狂思考的力量。
A lot of people think that when you ask your team when need to build 25 columns in a month or whatever it was, people would be burned out or feeling super depressed.
很多人认为，当你询问你的团队何时需要在一个月内构建 25 个专栏或其他什么内容时，人们会感到精疲力尽或感到超级沮丧。
But really, people get excited.
但实际上，人们很兴奋。
There's all this opportunity to think really differently.
这里有很多机会可以真正以不同的方式思考。
It reminds me at our Airbnb, Brian Chesky was very famous for you give him a goal, "Here's our goal for the year." And he's like, "What it would take to 10X this goal?" Just like, "What would it take to do that?" And he's always pushing you to think a lot bigger, because your first reaction's like, "No, no, no. Leave us alone?" But then, you realize, if you really think big, it changes everything about how you approach the problem as you described, where instead of...
这让我想起了在我们的 Airbnb，Brian Chesky 非常出名，因为你给他一个目标，“这是我们今年的目标。”他说：“如何才能实现这个目标的 10 倍？”就像“需要什么才能做到这一点？”他总是促使你想得更远大，因为你的第一反应是，“不，不，不。让我们一个人呆着吗？”但是，你意识到，如果你真的想得很远大，它会改变你如何处理你所描述的问题的一切，而不是......
Like in a day.
就像一天之内。
What would it take to build this in a day?
一天之内建造这个需要什么？
Daniel Lereya: Yeah.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：是的。
And I think, by the way, this is something which is really important about setting ambitious goals.
顺便说一句，我认为这对于设定雄心勃勃的目标非常重要。
If you set a different goal, "I want to reduce it from four months to three months." So many times, this translates in people's heads to, "I want you to work harder.
如果你设定不同的目标，“我想从四个月减少到三个月。”很多时候，这在人们的脑海中会转化为：“我希望你更加努力地工作。
I want you to work longer hours." And, this is not a message here.
我希望你工作更长时间。”而且，这不是这里的信息。
It's about working smarter.
这是关于更聪明地工作。
And I think that many times when we talk about speed of execution, there's fake speed, which means, trying to do the same work by skipping stages or not doing the high quality that you want, but there's the real speed, and speed of organizations, and speed of execution.
我认为，很多时候，当我们谈论执行速度时，都有假速度，这意味着，试图通过跳过阶段或不做你想要的高质量来完成同样的工作，但有真正的速度、组织的速度和执行的速度。
Many times, it's about doing things right.
很多时候，关键在于正确地做事。
It's about understanding, A, what is going to move the needle?
这是关于理解，A，什么会起到推动作用？
And work only on that.
并且只致力于此。
Not working in a lot of things that you tend to invent when you're trying to solve a problem.
当你试图解决问题时，你没有做很多你想发明的事情。
Daniel Lereya: And B, is about, as you said, thinking differently.
Daniel Lereya：正如您所说，B 是指以不同的方式思考。
And I think that for the goals, this is why we really wanted the goal that you really understand from the first minute that if you work the same way, you cannot achieve it, even if you sleep in the office.
我认为对于目标，这就是为什么我们真正想要一个你从第一分钟就真正理解的目标，如果你以同样的方式工作，你就无法实现它，即使你在办公室睡觉。
So you need to change dramatically how you think.
所以你需要彻底改变你的思维方式。
And, the advanced phase of it is that today we're doing it on things that we didn't see others doing.
而且，它的高级阶段是，今天我们正在做我们没有看到其他人做过的事情。
And, we have the confidence, because we have the experience of trusting ourselves that this is an exercise for us that will make us actually think about different solutions.
而且，我们有信心，因为我们有相信自己的经验，这对我们来说是一次练习，会让我们真正思考不同的解决方案。
Lenny Rachitsky: I know another element of this that is really important to you that you have shifted the way you all operate is focusing on impact.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道其中另一个对您来说非常重要的因素是您已经改变了所有人的运作方式，那就是关注影响力。
There was a lot of focus on just building a lot of stuff and you realize there's a lot of power in thinking from perspective of how do we have the most impact?
人们非常关注构建很多东西，你意识到从我们如何产生最大影响的角度思考有很大的力量？
Talk about that.
谈谈那个。
Daniel Lereya: This is the core and the main thing that we also measure our teams, and this is how I see a great PM.
Daniel Lereya：这是我们衡量团队的核心和主要内容，这也是我对优秀 PM 的看法。
So a great PM basically for me is someone that is relentless until he gets this impact, and until he validates that this impact is in place.
所以对我来说，一个伟大的产品经理基本上是一个坚持不懈的人，直到他获得这种影响，直到他验证这种影响已经到位。
And, for us, it really changed how we think about things.
而且，对我们来说，它确实改变了我们思考事物的方式。
It really changed how we set goals for our teams.
它确实改变了我们为团队设定目标的方式。
So in many ways PM in Monday, first and foremost, is responsible for creating the shared understanding on what would be impactful for our customers.
因此，从很多方面来说，周一的产品经理首先负责就什么对我们的客户产生影响达成共识。
Okay?
好吧？
It's not about the solution and what we are going to build.
这与解决方案和我们要构建的内容无关。
It's about, what's the problem, what's the opportunity.
问题是什么，机会是什么。
And second, how we will know that we moved the needle.
其次，我们如何知道我们已经改变了方向。
And without these two things, you can build so many different things, and it's songs for the door.
没有这两件事，你可以建造很多不同的东西，这就是门之歌。
Such huge part of what I build was never used by users the way I fought it was going to use.
我构建的这么大一部分内容从未被用户以我所希望的方式使用。
Daniel Lereya: So I think that, for me, having this understanding of what we want to change for our customers and also how we know we did it is a huge, huge part of the PM.
Daniel Lereya：所以我认为，对我来说，了解我们想要为客户改变什么以及我们如何知道我们做到了这一点是 PM 的一个重要组成部分。
And, for us, it means that we pay a lot of time in setting goals, in making sure that we really understand both, again, the opportunity, but not only that, but how we'll see and we'll know for sure that we move the needle.
而且，对我们来说，这意味着我们要花很多时间来设定目标，确保我们真正理解机会，但不仅如此，而且我们将如何看待并确定我们会取得进展。
In many ways, it changes the conversation.
在很多方面，它改变了谈话。
So PMs and the teams, many times, spending a lot of time at the problem area, before they think about the solution.
因此，PM 和团队很多时候会在问题领域花费大量时间，然后再考虑解决方案。
The solution is not the case anymore.
解决方案不再是这样了。
There are so many different solutions.
有很多不同的解决方案。
And, once you do that and you have these goals, suddenly, it reduces also a lot of the discussions that you have about the different solutions, because everyone knows that everything is going to be tested in real life.
而且，一旦你这样做并且有了这些目标，突然之间，你对不同解决方案的讨论也会减少，因为每个人都知道一切都将在现实生活中进行测试。
So they make everyone treat it differently.
所以他们让每个人都以不同的方式对待它。
Daniel Lereya: And also, in that way, it makes you think much more holistically, which I also think is something that is very special at Monday, is that, we give our teams real life goals as much as we can.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：而且，通过这种方式，它会让你思考得更加全面，我也认为周一的这一点非常特别，那就是，我们尽可能多地为我们的团队提供现实生活中的目标。
And then, in some cases, doing the biggest impact is not developing another feature.
然后，在某些情况下，产生最大影响的并不是开发另一个功能。
It's about making the current value more accessible.
这是为了让当前的价值更容易获得。
It's about connecting better the go-to market motion that you have.
这是为了更好地连接您所拥有的进入市场的行动。
It's about understanding how your customers are going to learn what you built and use it.
这是关于了解您的客户将如何了解您构建的内容并使用它。
And, this realization is something that we try very hard to stay on it.
而且，我们非常努力地坚持这种认识。
And, it's hard, because people tend to build things.
而且，这很难，因为人们倾向于建造东西。
We all love to build things.
我们都喜欢建造东西。
And, when you start to build things, you get excited, and suddenly, you lose track of why you are doing it, and why do you need to change.
而且，当你开始构建东西时，你会感到兴奋，突然间，你不知道为什么要做这件事，以及为什么需要改变。
Daniel Lereya: And, I think that in that sense, this is the most important part about this point of impact.
Daniel Lereya：而且，我认为从这个意义上说，这是关于这一影响点的最重要的部分。
And, this is also how we measure ourselves, so we can work extremely hard.
而且，这也是我们衡量自己的方式，所以我们可以非常努力地工作。
It doesn't mean that we're successful, it doesn't mean that we're doing our work right.
这并不意味着我们成功了，也不意味着我们的工作做得很好。
And, it's not only for the PMs, it's for the entire team.
而且，这不仅适用于产品经理，也适用于整个团队。
So the entire team succeeds or fail together, based on the value that we bring to our customers.
因此，整个团队的成功或失败取决于我们为客户带来的价值。
And we have a lot of different ways in order to make sure that we stay honest to this principle.
我们有很多不同的方法来确保我们诚实地遵守这一原则。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a lot of people listening to this that work at, say, modern tech companies, very high growth tech companies that are just like, "Duh, this is how you should work." A lot of people hearing this are like, "I don't really understand.
Lenny Rachitsky：有很多听这个的人在现代科技公司工作，在高增长的科技公司工作，他们就像是，“呃，这就是你应该如何工作。”很多人听到这句话都会说：“我不太明白。
What am I doing wrong?
我做错了什么？
What am I missing?" Maybe.
我缺少什么？”或许。
What's a sign that you're not oriented around impact?
什么迹象表明您不以影响力为导向？
Daniel Lereya: I think, the most obvious sign for me is that you are building something without the aim or without the initial aim of what it changed for your users and how you are going to measure it.
Daniel Lereya：我认为，对我来说最明显的迹象是，你正在构建的东西没有目标，或者没有最初的目标，即它为你的用户带来了什么改变，以及你将如何衡量它。
So in my eyes, it's many times the fact that you don't have a goal or the goal is like...
所以在我看来，很多时候你没有目标，或者目标就像......
Many times, for me, a smell for that is that I hear people use the word, "We're going to enhance..." "We're going to augment..." "We're going to extend value, and this, and this, and this." No, it's not enough.
很多时候，对我来说，我听到人们使用这个词，“我们将增强......”“我们将增强......”“我们将扩展价值，还有这个，还有这个，还有这个。”不，这还不够。
What is it going to change for users and how you are going to see it that it actually happened?
它会给用户带来什么变化？您将如何看待它的实际发生？
And then, you start asking yourself all the questions, right?
然后，你开始问自己所有的问题，对吗？
Because, once you have a goal that you're committed to, suddenly, you think about the target audience, because you need big enough target audience, for instance, in order to get to your goals.
因为，一旦你有了一个致力于实现的目标，你就会突然想到目标受众，因为你需要足够大的目标受众，例如，为了实现你的目标。
You need to make sure that what you build actually going to touch all of these people.
您需要确保您构建的内容实际上能够触及所有这些人。
Daniel Lereya: And I can share just a recent example.
Daniel Lereya：我可以分享一个最近的例子。
And, these things sound trivial and maybe an example would help resonate with that, because I know many people are thinking like that.
而且，这些事情听起来微不足道，也许举一个例子会有助于引起共鸣，因为我知道很多人都这么想。
And, we have a very interesting offering that we just introduced with AI, it's called AI Blocks.
而且，我们刚刚推出了一个非常有趣的人工智能产品，叫做人工智能块。
Okay?
好的？
And basically, it means that with no-code, you can integrate blocks which contain AI actions within your existing workflows.
基本上，这意味着无需代码，您就可以将包含 AI 操作的块集成到现有工作流程中。
And, 70% of Monday's customers are non-tech.
而且，周一 70% 的客户都是非技术人员。
And for them, this makes AI accessible for them and has a huge, huge value.
对于他们来说，这使他们可以使用人工智能，并且具有巨大的价值。
And we started building these blocks and we listed to customers and we measured discoverability, and adoption, and retention, and so on.
我们开始构建这些模块，并向客户列出，并衡量可发现性、采用率和保留率等。
And, something that we do in order to stay connected to the numbers.
而且，我们所做的事情是为了与数字保持联系。
So each team at Monday has, what we call, the daily numbers update.
因此，周一每个团队都会进行我们所说的每日数据更新。
So think about it like a message that the team is building with all the numbers-
因此，可以将其视为团队正在用所有数字构建的消息 -
Daniel Lereya: ...
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：...
a message that the team is building with all the numbers that they care about, because we really want people to live these numbers.
团队正在用他们关心的所有数字构建信息，因为我们真的希望人们生活在这些数字中。
So, for AI, for instance, for the AI blocks, it was the AI actions.
所以，对于人工智能来说，例如，对于人工智能块来说，就是人工智能的动作。
So we had the AI actions, how many accounts are we using these AI actions, and so on, and so on.
所以我们有人工智能操作，我们有多少个帐户正在使用这些人工智能操作，等等。
And we got amazing responses from our customers.
我们得到了客户的惊人回应。
We see great success of them getting value from the AI actions.
我们看到他们从人工智能行动中获得了巨大的成功。
We use a Slack channel in which one of our internal systems, , is sending us this messages every day, and then we have conversations about it, okay?
我们使用 Slack 渠道，其中我们的内部系统之一每天都会向我们发送此消息，然后我们就该消息进行对话，好吗？
And one day, we saw, we noticed that the amount of accounts that are using AI is super, super low comparing to the entire population that we have.
有一天，我们发现，与我们拥有的总人口相比，使用人工智能的账户数量非常非常低。
And we have 250,000 paying companies that use Monday, and we saw only few thousands there.
我们有 250,000 家付费公司使用周一服务，但我们看到的只有几千家。
And until this point, everyone in a very good feeling that we are making an amazing product, we get really good feedback, we are building great value, we're adding value, but we sat down and say, "Okay, why it's only this and this?" Then someone say, "Yeah, since AI is new, we need to do change of the terms of service for customers before we are opening it to them," and this is planned in the next quarter, or something like that.
直到此时，每个人都感觉非常好，我们正在制造一个令人惊叹的产品，我们得到了非常好的反馈，我们正在创造巨大的价值，我们正在增加价值，但我们坐下来说，“好吧，为什么只有这个和这个？”然后有人说，“是的，由于人工智能是新事物，我们需要在向客户开放之前更改服务条款”，这计划在下个季度或类似的事情进行。
And said, "What?
并说道：“什么？
No, we need to do it now.
不，我们现在就需要这样做。
We need to now open it for everyone because this is actually what would be the most impactful thing to do."
我们现在需要向所有人开放，因为这实际上是最有影响力的事情。”
Daniel Lereya: And then the team went and sat with legal, and sent with everyone.
Daniel Lereya：然后团队就去和法律人员坐在一起，并与所有人一起发送。
And with two weeks time, it was open to 98% of Monday customers.
两周时间里，周一的顾客数量达到了 98%。
And I think, in that sense, this is a very good example because we could have continued building value, and it's great, but the impact wouldn't be the impact that we were aiming for, and this is a very important point.
我认为，从这个意义上说，这是一个非常好的例子，因为我们可以继续创造价值，这很好，但影响不会是我们想要的影响，这是非常重要的一点。
I think, in that sense, staying really connected to your teams...
我认为，从这个意义上说，与你的团队保持真正的联系......
to your numbers.
到你的号码。
Sorry, this is something that I really feel strongly about.
抱歉，这是我真正有强烈感受的事情。
I feel that you need to get your numbers and push.
我觉得你需要得到你的数字并推动。
You need to live by them.
你需要靠它们生活。
For me, it's so exciting to see a conversation that says, "Oh, wow, today, there were a lot of new accounts that are using what I'm building.
对我来说，看到这样的对话真是令人兴奋：“哦，哇，今天，有很多新帐户正在使用我正在构建的东西。
Let's see why it happens." And this kind of things that I see the conversation about, it's amazing.
让我们看看为什么会发生这种情况。”我看到这样的对话，真是太神奇了。
Daniel Lereya: And also, in this case, seeing the AI actions go, it's like you want to dive it and push it forward.
Daniel Lereya：而且，在这种情况下，看到人工智能的动作，就像你想潜入它并推动它前进一样。
And in many ways, they feel that this is a very good example on where you can actually build a lot of value.
从很多方面来说，他们认为这是一个很好的例子，说明你可以真正创造很多价值。
You can walk really fast, you can deliver a lot of features, but the problem lays in other place in order to get the impact that you want.
你可以走得很快，你可以提供很多功能，但问题在于其他地方以获得你想要的影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
There's so much joy in watching your number go up.
看着你的数字上升真是太高兴了。
So, just to close the loop here, to help people see if they're impact-driven, working from a perspective of how do we drive the most impact, one simple way of thinking about it is you're working backwards from a goal that is going to drive business growth and revenue, basically, in the end.
因此，为了结束这里的循环，帮助人们了解他们是否是影响力驱动的，从我们如何驱动最大影响力的角度出发，一种简单的思考方式是，你从一个最终将推动业务增长和收入的目标开始逆向工作。
If you're working backwards from a number, and a metric, and a goal, and then thinking through what are the levers that will most move this metric, that's a sign you're thinking by impact, versus, "Let's just keep shipping features that the sales team wants."
如果你从一个数字、一个指标和一个目标开始逆向工作，然后思考最能推动这个指标的杠杆是什么，这表明你正在考虑影响，而不是“让我们继续提供销售团队想要的功能”。
Daniel Lereya: Yeah.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：是的。
And I think another thing for me, it's an exercise that I really encourage everyone to do.
我认为对我来说另一件事是，我真的鼓励每个人都这样做。
For me, it was after the columns hackathon and everything that we talked about, I said, "Okay, each quarter..." and this is when we were much smaller, but it can be each month, it can be each two weeks, but how do I imagine the company and the product is going to be different and better for our customers in a quarter from now?
对我来说，在专栏黑客马拉松和我们谈论的一切之后，我说，“好吧，每个季度……”当时我们规模要小得多，但可以每个月一次，也可以每两周一次，但我如何想象公司和产品会在一个季度后为我们的客户带来不同和更好的结果呢？
And from that, walk it backwards.
然后从那里开始倒退。
Daniel Lereya: But if you are just saying, "We'll have better security.
Daniel Lereya：但如果你只是说，“我们会有更好的安全保障。
We'll have better performance.
我们会有更好的表现。
We'll have less bugs.
我们的 bug 会更少。
We'll have more enhancements to," I don't know, "this and this feature," it's not enough.
我们将会有更多的增强，”我不知道，“这个和这个功能，”这还不够。
You need to constantly build value, which is pivotal to your customers.
您需要不断创造价值，这对您的客户至关重要。
And if you don't do it and if it's hard for you to answer about this question, it's a very good sign that you are not impact-driven.
如果你不这样做，并且你很难回答这个问题，那么这是一个很好的迹象，表明你不是受影响力驱动的。
And I love to do it also with teams and individuals like, "What are the things that you are most proud of that you did in the last three months?" And if it takes you a lot of time to think, you are not very focused and you are definitely not maximizing the impact that you want due to that, in my eyes.
我也喜欢与团队和个人一起这样做，比如“过去三个月里你所做的最令你自豪的事情是什么？”在我看来，如果你花了很多时间思考，那么你就不太专注，因此你肯定没有最大化你想要的影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: I like that exercise as a, versus waiting for your competitors to do something and then realizing we're way behind, it's forcing yourself every quarter to think about this.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这种练习，而不是等待竞争对手采取行动，然后意识到我们远远落后，它迫使自己每个季度都思考这一点。
So do you do this as you have a meeting or something on your calendar, or how do you actually operationalize this?
那么，您是否在有会议或日历上有其他事情时这样做，或者您如何实际操作它？
Daniel Lereya: Today, we are under the builders organization, which is the engineering, product management, product design.
Daniel Lereya：今天，我们隶属于构建者组织，负责工程、产品管理、产品设计。
We are 700 people.
我们有 700 人。
So, we have a lot of different ways and methodologies to do it in different levels, but I'll give you an example from the company level and from the team level maybe, because these are the most interesting ones.
所以，我们有很多不同的方式和方法在不同的层面上做到这一点，但我会给你一个公司层面和团队层面的例子，因为这些是最有趣的。
So, we just recently had our yearly kickoff.
所以，我们最近刚刚举行了年度启动仪式。
Each and every year, we do a yearly kickoff for our company, and one of the most exciting sessions, obviously, is what we are going to do with our product as a product company.
每年，我们都会为我们的公司举办年度启动会，而最令人兴奋的会议之一显然是我们作为一家产品公司将如何处理我们的产品。
And I really like to have a slide in which I write and I just share it, " When I'm going to stand here in a year from now, what is going to be different for our customers?" And this is on the company level.
我真的很喜欢在幻灯片中写下并分享它：“一年后当我站在这里时，我们的客户会有什么不同？”这是在公司层面。
Daniel Lereya: And I have one slide, and it talks about our offering and it talks about the value that they are getting in a way that, next year, I want to...
Daniel Lereya：我有一张幻灯片，它谈到了我们的产品和他们正在以某种方式获得的价值，明年，我想......
each year to start my presentation with the slide from last year and see where we are.
每年我都会用去年的幻灯片开始我的演示，看看我们现在的情况。
And in this level, it can be something like, "Our CRM continues with a very strong momentum and becomes a product suite when we give much more robust value to our customers." This can be an example with an additional product of CRM marketing, I would just say.
在这个层面上，它可以是这样的：“当我们为客户提供更强大的价值时，我们的 CRM 将继续保持强劲的势头，并成为一个产品套件。”我只想说，这可以是 CRM 营销附加产品的一个例子。
Daniel Lereya: But on a team level, what we did, and maybe I'll take an example from the early days, we really love to do, each and every two weeks, I told you we would write an update for the entire company about what we did, and the way we did it is that each and every one of our team members actually write out his highlights and then we would share it with the company.
Daniel Lereya：但是在团队层面上，我们做了什么，也许我会举一个早期的例子，我们真的很喜欢做，每两周，我告诉过你我们会为整个公司写一篇关于我们所做的事情的更新，我们这样做的方式是我们的每一个团队成员实际上写下他的亮点，然后我们会与公司分享。
And this exercise really made us sit every two weeks and think on individual level, but also on a team level.
这项练习确实让我们每两周坐下来思考个人层面和团队层面。
And every one of our team members used to read these updates and say, "Dan, we had a good two weeks," or, "We had a bad two weeks," "We did a lot of impact," or, "We did not enough impact." So I really encourage to create these points in time where you sit down and you force yourself to understand whether what you did is what you thought you are going to achieve or not.
我们的每一位团队成员过去常常阅读这些更新并说：“丹，我们度过了愉快的两周”，或者“我们度过了糟糕的两周”，“我们产生了很大的影响”，或者“我们没有产生足够的影响”。因此，我真的鼓励您及时创建这些时间点，让您坐下来强迫自己了解您所做的是否是您认为自己会实现的目标。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's great.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：那太好了。
I really like the slide idea.
我真的很喜欢幻灯片的想法。
It's basically there's all this power and just working backwards from something in the future, however you come up with it.
基本上，它拥有所有这些力量，并且只是从未来的某些事情开始向后工作，无论你想出什么办法。
So, it's just like, in a year, we're going to have...
所以，就像一年后，我们将会......
There's just working backwards from a goal, working backwards from a big vision.
只是从一个目标开始倒退，从一个远大的愿景开始倒退。
I think those are such good exercises.
我认为这些都是很好的练习。
Obviously, Amazon's famous Working Backwards.
显然，亚马逊著名的“逆向工作”。
There's a whole book called Working Backwards from their PR approach.
他们的公关方法有一整本书叫《逆向工作》。
Okay, I want to go in a slightly different direction.
好吧，我想朝一个稍微不同的方向发展。
I want to zoom out a little bit.
我想缩小一点。
So you've been at this for eight years, building Monday.
所以你已经在这方面工作了八年了，直到周一。
You said there is 250,000 customers at this point.
你说此时有 250,000 名客户。
What's the revenue scale?
收入规模有多大？
Give people a couple stats to give them a sense of just how large this company has gotten.
给人们一些统计数据，让他们了解这家公司的规模有多大。
Daniel Lereya: We recently announced that we cost the 1 billion in ARR, and we are serving, as I said, 250,000 customers across the globe from virtually any industry that you can think about, more than 200 different business verticals.
Daniel Lereya：我们最近宣布，我们在 ARR 上花费了 10 亿美元，正如我所说，我们正在为全球 250,000 名客户提供服务，他们几乎来自您能想到的任何行业，200 多个不同的垂直业务领域。
It could be both tech and non-tech-savvy customers.
它可能是精通技术的客户，也可能是不懂技术的客户。
The vast majority of our customers are non-tech, from a customer that is building airplanes and cruise ships, all the way to real estate, construction, finance, tech, and everything you can basically think of.
我们的绝大多数客户都是非技术领域的，从制造飞机和游轮的客户，一直到房地产、建筑、金融、科技以及您基本上能想到的一切。
Just for reference, in a single , when I joined Monday eight and a half years ago, back then, we were called the Pulse.
仅供参考，在八年半前我加入星期一时，当时我们被称为“脉冲”。
We had around 4 million in ARR, and we scaled from there to 1 billion.
我们的 ARR 约为 400 万，并从那里扩展到 10 亿。
And from around 30, 40 people in the company to 2,500 right now.
公司的人数从大约 30、40 人增加到现在的 2,500 人。
Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
When you talk about the product you're building, to a lot of people, it's like, "Oh, it's like project management software, all this column.
当你谈论你正在构建的产品时，对很多人来说，就像是，“哦，这就像项目管理软件，所有这个专栏。
What's the big deal?" But I had Drew Houston on the podcast, and he made this really interesting point when he talks to people working at SpaceX, who are launching rockets to Mars, and he talked about people building ships.
有什么大不了的？”但我在播客上邀请了德鲁·休斯顿，他在与 SpaceX 的工作人员交谈时提出了这一非常有趣的观点，他们正在向火星发射火箭，他还谈到了人们建造船只的情况。
If you really boil down what are they doing day-to-day, they're sitting in tools like Monday, putting together tasks, and doing to-dos, and sharing documents.
如果你真的总结一下他们每天在做什么，就会发现他们坐在像周一这样的工具中，整理任务，做待办事项，并共享文档。
This is what the world runs on.
这就是世界运转的基础。
So it's important to have that perspective.
因此，拥有这种观点很重要。
With that, putting that aside for a second, I think very few people have seen what you've seen, seeing a company scale this way.
说到这里，先把这个放在一边，我想很少有人见过你所看到的，看到一家公司以这种方式规模扩张。
Also, the transformation you just shared of just almost shipping too much and being slow to like, "Okay, let's rework things to shipping 25 columns in a month," and all these things.
另外，您刚刚分享的转型几乎是交付太多，而且速度太慢，“好吧，让我们重新设计，在一个月内交付 25 列”，以及所有这些事情。
Very few people have seen this, so there's a lot to learn from this journey that you've been on.
很少有人见过这个，所以从你经历的这段旅程中可以学到很多东西。
So I have a bunch of questions in a bunch of different ways of approaching some of your biggest lessons from this journey.
因此，我以多种不同的方式提出了一系列问题，以了解您从这次旅程中获得的一些最大的教训。
The first is, let me just ask you this question, what would you say is the most counterintuitive thing you've learned about building product and leading teams through this journey of building Monday?
首先，让我问你这个问题，你认为你在周一的构建之旅中学到的关于构建产品和领导团队的最违反直觉的事情是什么？
Daniel Lereya: Maybe, first of all, it's about something that we really care about, which is transparency.
Daniel Lereya：也许，首先，这是我们真正关心的事情，那就是透明度。
Let me tell you a story.
让我给你讲一个故事。
I sat down for dinner at my family, and many different members of my family are entrepreneurs, so working as an executive in tech companies and so on.
我在家里坐下来吃晚饭，我家里的许多不同成员都是企业家，所以在科技公司等公司担任高管。
And back in the days, we as Monday, before we went public, we actually shared every bit of information with our employees.
过去，我们在周一上市之前，实际上与我们的员工分享了所有信息。
You would get into our office and you would see a dashboard with how many paying accounts do you have, how many people have churned today, how many signups do we have, and so many different things.
你走进我们的办公室，你会看到一个仪表板，上面有你有多少付费账户、今天有多少人流失、我们有多少注册者，以及许多不同的东西。
Even if you came for an interview, you would see these numbers.
即使你来面试，你也会看到这些数字。
Daniel Lereya: And I remember sitting in this dinner and everyone would tell me, "Listen, you are making a mistake.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：我记得坐在这次晚宴上，每个人都会告诉我，“听着，你犯了一个错误。
How can you do it when things go south?
当事情向南发展时你怎么办？
You'll demoralize the team and people will get upset about it." And I think this is, for me, one of the most important things.
你会让团队士气低落，人们也会对此感到不安。”我认为这对我来说是最重要的事情之一。
When you hire and you have such a talented team, we want to share with them everything, and the reason for that is that, "Dan, you are working on every challenge together." And instead of demoralizing people, I think that, for the right people and the people that are working at Monday, this is something that gives them a sense of deep partnership.
当你聘用并且拥有如此才华横溢的团队时，我们希望与他们分享一切，原因是，“丹，你正在共同应对每一个挑战。”我认为，对于合适的人和周一工作的人来说，这不会让人们士气低落，而是会给他们一种深厚的伙伴关系感。
And as a leader, there were many situations in my professional life that I knew some bit of information and I felt all the way on my shoulders, and I love to call it the dark side of the moon.
作为一名领导者，在我的职业生涯中，有很多情况我知道一些信息，我感觉一路上都在我的肩膀上，我喜欢称之为月球的黑暗面。
You're there alone, right?
你一个人在那里，对吧？
You are coming to the office.
你要来办公室了。
There's nothing more demoralizing or depressing as a leader that you feel awful because something that you know and you're coming to the office and everything is great and everyone are happy.
作为一名领导者，没有什么比你感到糟糕更令人士气低落或沮丧的了，因为你知道一些事情，当你来到办公室时，一切都很好，每个人都很高兴。
Daniel Lereya: And I think, in Monday, we really wanted to do it differently and we really have an approach of very radical transparency about everything, and this actually makes everyone part of what we are doing.
Daniel Lereya：我认为，在周一，我们真的想采取不同的做法，我们确实对所有事情都采取了非常彻底的透明度方法，这实际上使每个人都成为我们正在做的事情的一部分。
And in a way, we like to say, "We really want everyone's brains in the challenge and not just one centralized brain and a lot of working hands." And I can share examples when, for instance, suddenly, people would come up to the office.
在某种程度上，我们喜欢说，“我们真的希望每个人的大脑都参与到挑战中，而不仅仅是一个集中的大脑和大量的工作人员。”我可以分享一些例子，例如，人们突然来到办公室。
We have dashboards, of course, everywhere in the office.
当然，我们办公室各处都有仪表板。
Each team has its own dashboards.
每个团队都有自己的仪表板。
We have our company dashboards for metrics and so on.
我们有公司的指标仪表板等。
And I remember cases in which someone said, "Listen, what happened to the conversion?" And think how powerful it is when you have everyone at the company looking at these things.
我记得有人说：“听着，转变发生了什么？”想想当公司的每个人都在关注这些事情时，它是多么强大。
And many of the things that we discovered, many of the things that we saw as challenges and problems is things that people saw due to this transparency.
我们发现的许多事情，许多我们视为挑战和问题的事情，都是人们由于这种透明度而看到的。
Daniel Lereya: So I think that maybe the counterintuitive part is that don't be afraid to share the information.
Daniel Lereya：所以我认为也许违反直觉的部分是不要害怕分享信息。
It's exactly the other way around.
恰恰相反。
And I can probably share that, even today as a public company, we really share everything that we can.
我可以分享的是，即使在今天作为一家上市公司，我们也确实分享了我们能分享的一切。
And also, if you are a product manager at Monday, you are signing a 10b5 program for selling your stocks, meaning that we found a way to make everyone still see the data because we think this is the most important part.
而且，如果你在周一是一名产品经理，你正在签署一个 10b5 计划来出售你的股票，这意味着我们找到了一种方法让每个人仍然可以看到数据，因为我们认为这是最重要的部分。
And I think this is one thing that I really believe in and really changed how we work, and also how people are feeling about being partners in building Monday and not just working at the company.
我认为这是我真正相信的一件事，并且真正改变了我们的工作方式，也改变了人们对成为周一建设合作伙伴而不仅仅是在公司工作的感受。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is that thing they sign that's just like auto sell stocks?
Lenny Rachitsky：他们签署的东西就像汽车销售股票一样吗？
So they're not-
所以他们不是——
Lenny Rachitsky: ...
莱尼·拉奇茨基：……
selling based on information, based on announcements that's coming.
基于信息、基于即将发布的公告进行销售。
Okay, got it.
好的，明白了。
So every PM basically has to automatically, "Can't decide, I'm going to sell my stock tomorrow because this number is tanking."
因此，每个产品经理基本上都必须自动说：“无法决定，我明天要卖掉我的股票，因为这个数字正在下跌。”
Daniel Lereya: Yeah.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：是的。
So we want to give people a choice.
所以我们想给人们一个选择。
But usually, we really feel that, in most cases, you really need to know this information in order to do your work.
但通常，我们确实认为，在大多数情况下，您确实需要了解这些信息才能完成工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's so interesting.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。
And I think people even prefer just dollar cost average sell.
我认为人们甚至更喜欢仅以美元成本平均销售。
It's like makes life easier, not having to try to time all these things.
这就像让生活变得更轻松，而不必尝试为所有这些事情计时。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's really interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：这真的很有趣。
And that's just product managers, or how far does that all go?
这只是产品经理，或者说这一切能走多远？
Daniel Lereya: No. So, basically, when we became public, I remember still one of the conversations that we had with the bankers and the lawyers about, "Listen, guys, things would need to change.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：不。所以，基本上，当我们公开时，我仍然记得我们与银行家和律师进行的一次对话，内容是：“听着，伙计们，事情需要改变。
You cannot have a dashboard.
你不能有仪表板。
We follow your financials at the entrance of the building.
我们在大楼入口处跟踪您的财务状况。
It doesn't make sense as a public company." And we understood it, but we didn't want to let go of what we cared about because we really believe this is one of the main drivers to the business, having this transparency and having this shared brains mode.
作为一家上市公司，这没有意义。”我们理解这一点，但我们不想放弃我们关心的事情，因为我们真的相信这是业务的主要驱动力之一，具有这种透明度和这种共享大脑模式。
So, we tried to think about ways in order to do it.
因此，我们试图思考如何做到这一点。
Daniel Lereya: So, now, if I'll fast-forward, we're almost four years public, and we have an internal app called Monday Morning.
Daniel Lereya：现在，如果我快进的话，我们上市已经快四年了，我们有一个名为“星期一早上”的内部应用程序。
And in Monday Morning, you have two parts, part A and part B.
周一早上，你有两个部分，A 部分和 B 部分。
Part A is for every company employee, contains a lot about engagement and a lot of data that can be shared with everyone, and part B is confidential and it's by role, okay?
A 部分适用于每位公司员工，包含很多关于敬业度和可以与每个人共享的数据，而 B 部分是保密的，并且是按角色划分的，好吗？
So it's the company management, but I think the important point is that we see product management as something that got to have these numbers.
所以这是公司管理层，但我认为重要的一点是我们将产品管理视为必须拥有这些数字的东西。
So we thought about it really hard, and it's a lot of logistics to do so many plans, 10b5 plans, but I think it's worth it, yeah.
所以我们认真思考了这个问题，做这么多计划、10b5 计划需要大量的后勤工作，但我认为这是值得的，是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is so interesting.
Lenny Rachitsky：这太有趣了。
A lot of companies talk about transparency, and you guys are...
很多公司都在谈论透明度，而你们……
I think radical transparency is a good way to describe this because I've never heard of a company doing this where you have to sign this-
我认为彻底的透明度是描述这一点的一个好方法，因为我从未听说过有一家公司这样做，你必须签署这个-
Daniel Lereya: They didn't hear about it as well, apparently.
Daniel Lereya：显然，他们也没有听说过。
And yeah, it took time to get to these solutions.
是的，找到这些解决方案需要时间。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's so funny.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：这太有趣了。
So, for people that are listening to this, they're like, "Hey, maybe we should explore this." What's one thing you'd suggest that they could do to start moving down this road?
所以，对于听这个的人来说，他们会说，“嘿，也许我们应该探索一下这个。”您建议他们可以做些什么来开始沿着这条路前进？
And the benefit, again, is you...
再说一次，好处是你...
I guess maybe, again, remind people of the benefits of doing this, because it sounds like a lot of work and risk.
我想也许会再次提醒人们这样做的好处，因为这听起来需要大量的工作和风险。
Daniel Lereya: So I think that, as a young startup, it's actually not such a hard work.
Daniel Lereya：所以我认为，作为一家年轻的初创公司，这实际上并不是一项艰苦的工作。
When we were very small back in the days, we had the daily numbers concept that we now have for the teams, we had the daily numbers for the company, how much paying accounts, how many upgraded, downgrade, and so on daily, and you saw people reacting to it on a daily basis.
当我们很小的时候，我们有团队现在的每日数字概念，我们有公司的每日数字，有多少付费帐户，有多少升级、降级等等，你可以看到人们每天对此做出反应。
So this is something that you can do in virtually one hour, and it changes how people see their role within the company, focus everyone to the company's KPIs because everyone understand what you care about, and so on.
因此，这是您几乎可以在一小时内完成的事情，它改变了人们如何看待自己在公司中的角色，让每个人都关注公司的 KPI，因为每个人都了解您关心的事情，等等。
So this is one thing that you can do extremely fast, and I don't see any disadvantage, aside from the fact that people are afraid.
所以这是一件你可以做得非常快的事情，除了人们害怕之外，我没有看到任何缺点。
Many time, you are afraid.
很多时候，你会害怕。
And I can share, it's so much...
我可以分享，太多了……
It's even a bigger lift that you don't need to think, "Can I share it?
这是一个更大的提升，你不需要思考，“我可以分享它吗？
Can I don't share it?" You just let it go and everything would be okay.
我可以不分享吗？”你只要放手，一切都会好起来的。
And I can share from my experience that we shared everything.
我可以从我的经验中分享我们分享的一切。
Daniel Lereya: And the second thing which is really practical, it's the office dashboards.
Daniel Lereya：第二个真正实用的东西是办公室仪表板。
We really believe in it.
我们真的相信它。
So, you buy a TV, you put it on the wall, you start a conversation due to it, "What do we want to show on this TV?" And when we were a smaller startup and we sat all in one office space, we had our company goals dashboard, and it also had...
所以，你买了一台电视，把它挂在墙上，然后开始对话，“我们想在这台电视上显示什么？”当我们还是一家规模较小的初创公司时，我们都坐在一个办公空间里，我们有公司目标仪表板，而且它还有……
We programmed it to have sounds on meaningful events.
我们对其进行了编程，使其在有意义的事件上发出声音。
So, when you had, for instance, new paying account, you had the almost Simpson saying the same with the, "$1 million, I'll become a millionaire," or something like that.
因此，例如，当您拥有新的付款帐户时，您几乎会听到辛普森说同样的话，“100万美元，我将成为百万富翁”或类似的话。
For new signup, you add the tick, and so on.
对于新注册，您可以添加勾号，依此类推。
So, suddenly, everyone are living it.
所以，突然之间，每个人都生活在其中。
It becomes part of the cadence of the company.
它成为公司节奏的一部分。
So these are just two ideas to make it super easy, and the change happens immediately.
因此，这只是两个使其变得超级简单的想法，并且改变会立即发生。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love how that connects back to the whole point about impact.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢它如何与影响力的整个要点联系起来。
People all lining around here is what we're trying to drive.
聚集在这里的人们就是我们想要推动的。
If the Simpson sound is going off, that's a sign that this matters, and it's something we should be driving up.
如果辛普森声音响起，那就表明这很重要，我们应该提高这一点。
Daniel Lereya: And it creates such a partnership.
Daniel Lereya：它创造了这样一种伙伴关系。
I remember reaching to the first time where we had $1 million collection in one month, breaking the record of new paying accounts for one day, everyone are living.
我记得我们第一次在一个月内收款100万美元，打破了一天新增付费账户的记录，每个人都活着。
But in many companies, only the management or the founders are feeling.
但在很多公司，只有管理层或创始人有感觉。
And I think that, in that sense, you already feel that you have a great power because everyone around is the same things, and it makes conversations different because everyone understands what matters to you at that point.
我认为，从这个意义上说，你已经感觉到自己拥有强大的力量，因为周围的每个人都是一样的，这使得对话变得不同，因为每个人都明白此时对你来说什么是重要的。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is awesome, really cool counterintuitive lesson.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是非常棒的、非常酷的违反直觉的课程。
I feel like a whole podcast could be done on how to do this effectively.
我觉得可以制作一个完整的播客来介绍如何有效地做到这一点。
I want to move on, but I guess if people want to start implementing this at the company, let's just say they should go talk to you, and you could give them a bunch of advice.
我想继续前进，但我想如果人们想开始在公司实施这一点，我们只能说他们应该去和你谈谈，你可以给他们很多建议。
Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, and I am very excited to have Christina Cacioppo, CEO and co-founder of Vanta, joining me for this very short conversation.
Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，我很高兴 Vanta 首席执行官兼联合创始人克里斯蒂娜·卡乔波 (Christina Cacioppo) 与我一起进行这个简短的对话。
Christina Cacioppo: Great to be here.
克里斯蒂娜·卡乔波：很高兴来到这里。
Big fan of the podcast and the newsletter.
播客和时事通讯的忠实粉丝。
Lenny Rachitsky: Vanta is a longtime sponsor of the show.
Lenny Rachitsky：Vanta 是该节目的长期赞助商。
But for some of our newer listeners, what does Vanta do and who is it for?
但对于我们的一些新听众来说，Vanta 是做什么的？它是为谁而设计的？
Christina Cacioppo: Sure.
克里斯蒂娜·卡乔波：当然。
So we started Vanta in 2018 focused on founders, helping them start to build out their security programs and get credit for all of that hard security work with compliance certifications, like SOC 2 or ISO 27001.
因此，我们于 2018 年启动了 Vanta，重点关注创始人，帮助他们开始构建自己的安全计划，并通过 SOC 2 或 ISO 27001 等合规性认证为所有艰苦的安全工作赢得赞誉。
Today, we currently help over 9,000 companies, including some startup household names, like Atlassian RAMP and LangChain, start and scale their security programs, and ultimately build trust by automating compliance, centralizing GRC, and accelerating security reviews.
如今，我们目前帮助超过 9,000 家公司（包括 Atlassian RAMP 和 LangChain 等一些家喻户晓的初创公司）启动和扩展其安全计划，并最终通过自动化合规性、集中 GRC 和加速安全审查来建立信任。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I know from experience that these things take a lot of time and a lot of resources, and nobody wants to spend time doing this.
我从经验中知道，这些事情需要花费大量的时间和资源，而且没有人愿意花时间来做这件事。
Christina Cacioppo: That is very much our experience before the company, and to some extent, during it, but the idea is, with automation, with AI, with software, we are helping customers build trust with prospects and customers in an efficient way.
Christina Cacioppo：这在很大程度上是我们在公司成立之前以及在公司成立期间的经验，但我们的想法是，通过自动化、人工智能和软件，我们正在帮助客户以有效的方式与潜在客户和客户建立信任。
And our joke, we started this compliance company so you don't have to.
我们开玩笑说，我们创办了这家合规公司，这样您就不必这么做了。
Lenny Rachitsky: We appreciate you for doing that, and you have a special discount for listeners.
Lenny Rachitsky：我们感谢您这样做，并且您为听众提供了特别折扣。
They can get $1,000 off Vanta at vanta.com/lenny, that's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny for $1,000 off Vanta.
他们可以在vanta.com/lenny 上享受Vanta 优惠1,000 美元，即V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny，Vanta 优惠1,000 美元。
Thanks for that, Christina.
谢谢你，克里斯蒂娜。
Lenny Rachitsky: Any other big counterintuitive lessons from the journey that you think would be fun to share?
Lenny Rachitsky：您认为这段旅程中还有其他一些违反直觉的重大教训值得分享吗？
Daniel Lereya: One thing I really love about what we do in Monday is that we really love to take risks, not for the sake of it, but we are not afraid to do bold moves.
Daniel Lereya：我真正喜欢我们周一所做的一件事是，我们真的喜欢冒险，不是为了冒险，但我们并不害怕采取大胆的行动。
And many times, when you want to do bold moves, you have a lot of concerns, especially when you start to be successful, because you are afraid that you are going to break everything that you built until now.
很多时候，当你想做大胆的举动时，你会有很多担忧，尤其是当你开始成功时，因为你担心你会破坏你迄今为止建立的一切。
And for me, one of the most pivotal moments in the company life is when we decided that, back in the days, as you said, we were a platform, but we had a go-to market of project management tool and we said, "Listen, people are doing so many different things on top of Monday.
对我来说，公司生活中最关键的时刻之一是当我们决定，正如你所说，我们是一个平台，但我们有一个项目管理工具的市场，我们说，“听着，人们在周一做很多不同的事情。
They are building a CRM of Monday and they are building a software for managing their dev cycles, and they are building so many different things," and we took a strategic decision to become a multi-product company which is built on top of this platform.
他们正在构建周一的 CRM，他们正在构建用于管理开发周期的软件，他们正在构建许多不同的东西，”我们做出了战略决策，成为一家建立在这个平台之上的多产品公司。
And we actually did something which is really counterintuitive.
我们实际上做了一些非常违反直觉的事情。
Daniel Lereya: The first thought that comes to mind, at least for me, is, "Why maybe not just launch a new product, do it relatively on the side, gradually understand if it's successful?
Daniel Lereya：至少对我来说，我想到的第一个想法是，“为什么不直接推出一个新产品，相对地做一些，逐渐了解它是否成功？
And if it would be successful, double click on it." But we actually did it in a very different way.
如果成功，请双击它。”但我们实际上以一种非常不同的方式做到了。
We actually announced five different new products simultaneously on the same time, and we had so many...
我们实际上在同一时间同时发布了五种不同的新产品，而且我们有很多......
I can't stress enough how hard it is to think about it.
我无法强调思考这个问题有多么困难。
Because I remember when we talked about and doing it, people say, "What?
因为我记得当我们谈论并这样做时，人们会说：“什么？
But we are going to confuse our current users and it's going to have conversion.
但我们会让当前的用户感到困惑，并且会产生转化。
And how are we going to do the marketing now when we have so many different go-to markets?
当我们有这么多不同的目标市场时，我们该如何进行营销呢？
And the sales, they don't know how to navigate people to different...
至于销售，他们不知道如何引导人们走向不同的……
And what about pricing?" So many different concerns, but we decided to do it because we really want to create a pivotal leap.
那么定价呢？”有很多不同的担忧，但我们决定这样做，因为我们真的想创造一个关键的飞跃。
Daniel Lereya: And I think that, in that sense, fast-forward to this day, part of these products were really successful.
Daniel Lereya：我认为，从这个意义上说，快进到今天，这些产品的一部分确实取得了成功。
For instance, Monday sale CRM is going faster than Monday back in the days, when it's amazing to see it, and-
例如，周一销售 CRM 的速度比过去的周一要快，当时看到它真是令人惊奇，而且 -
Daniel Lereya: In the days when it's amazing to see it.
Daniel Lereya：在那些看到它令人惊叹的日子里。
And some of them we understood that they don't need to be separate products and we collapse them back to the main product.
其中一些我们知道它们不需要是单独的产品，我们将它们折叠回主要产品。
But the point is, is that we managed to learn and to change both internally at the company, how the perception of everyone around what we are building, but also externally.
但关键是，我们成功地学习并改变了公司内部以及外部每个人对我们正在建设的产品的看法。
Daniel Lereya: This move changed dramatically the competitive landscape that we live in.
Daniel Lereya：这一举措极大地改变了我们所处的竞争格局。
And, I think there was a lot of friction.
而且，我认为存在很多摩擦。
Many people at the company were having a lot of friction with it.
公司里的很多人都对此产生了很多摩擦。
It was really, really hard.
这真的非常非常难。
Daniel Lereya: But looking back it's such, I'm so happy with this move and the fact that we did it like that because just imagine what would happen if we would choose one of them and it wasn't the successful products.
Daniel Lereya：但回想起来，我对这一举措以及我们这样做的事实感到非常满意，因为想象一下，如果我们选择其中一个，但它不是成功的产品，会发生什么。
And our conclusion can be that multi product won't work for us.
我们的结论是，多种产品对我们不起作用。
Daniel Lereya: We really managed to transform the company in a very short amount of time and also to create new reality.
Daniel Lereya：我们确实在很短的时间内成功地实现了公司转型，并创造了新的现实。
And I think that people need to remember that and I'm constantly reminding it to myself.
我认为人们需要记住这一点，我也不断提醒自己。
And I think this is something that we are constantly working with each other in order to make sure that we remember that not taking bold risks, not making bold moves, it's a risk for itself.
我认为这是我们不断相互合作的事情，以确保我们记住，不冒大胆的风险，不采取大胆的行动，这本身就是一种风险。
Okay?
好的？
Daniel Lereya: And many times people want the inertia, people want just the incremental value.
Daniel Lereya：很多时候人们想要的是惯性，人们想要的只是增量价值。
But if you want to do leaps many times you need to let go of things that were successful for you in the past.
但如果你想多次实现跨越，你就需要放弃过去对你来说成功的事情。
And this is very counterintuitive and we did a lot of mental models to help us cope with it.
这是非常违反直觉的，我们做了很多心理模型来帮助我们应对它。
Daniel Lereya: So I remember that when we were small and we had for instance 20,000 paying customers, so we said, "Listen, but most of Monday's customers are not customers of Monday, yet.
Daniel Lereya：所以我记得当我们很小的时候，我们有 20,000 名付费客户，所以我们说，“听着，但大多数星期一的客户还不是星期一的客户。
So we need to think about them, as well."
所以我们也需要考虑它们。”
Daniel Lereya: And this is something that really helps you because many times you need to do things that affect the current success that you have.
Daniel Lereya：这确实对你有帮助，因为很多时候你需要做一些影响你当前成功的事情。
But I think this is another very, very important thing that I am constantly reminding to myself.
但我认为这是我不断提醒自己的另一件非常非常重要的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's kind of this other recurring theme that I'm noticing of just thinking big and taking leaps.
Lenny Rachitsky：我注意到还有一个反复出现的主题，那就是大胆思考并取得飞跃。
And I love this point you made of not doing that is actually a big risk.
我喜欢你所说的这一点，不这样做实际上是一个很大的风险。
Not taking a risk is a big risk.
不冒险就是一个很大的风险。
That's a really powerful point.
这是一个非常有力的观点。
Lenny Rachitsky: And it's innately scary to do something risky.
Lenny Rachitsky：做冒险的事情本质上是令人恐惧的。
And so, I love the push here of just take more risks because it's so easy.
因此，我喜欢这里提倡承担更多风险，因为这很容易。
And this comes back again to the beginning of the conversation where we're just building things the way they've always been built.
这又回到了谈话的开始，我们只是按照一贯的方式来构建事物。
And looking back and what have we even done?
回顾过去，我们到底做了什么？
What have we done over this year of hard work and tons of features?
经过这一年的努力和大量的功能，我们做了什么？
Lenny Rachitsky: I think a lot of companies get in that place where they're just like, "What are we?" Like in our B and B, I had this exact, Brian is constant like, "What are we even shipping all these billions of experiments that are moving the numbers?
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为很多公司都会陷入这样的境地：“我们是什么？”就像我们的 B 和 B 中一样，我得到了这一点，Brian 总是这样说：“我们究竟在运送这些数十亿个改变数字的实验？
What are we even doing?
我们到底在做什么？
I don't know anything that we ship that's really exciting."
我不知道我们发布了什么真正令人兴奋的东西。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And so, I think this is a really good reminder and push to just think bigger and you need to take big leaps.
Lenny Rachitsky：所以，我认为这是一个非常好的提醒，并推动你想得更大，你需要迈出一大步。
So, love that.
所以，喜欢那个。
Is there any other big counterintuitive lessons before we move in a different direction?
在我们转向不同的方向之前，还有其他重大的违反直觉的教训吗？
Daniel Lereya: I really believe that many time, like spending more time on working on something will not yield to better results or to better products.
Daniel Lereya：我真的相信很多时候，比如花更多的时间在某件事上，不会产生更好的结果或更好的产品。
And I think that many times we, as people, that are building products for others get to a point where the feedback that we want to get in the bottom of our heart is like, " Wow, what an amazing product you have built."
我认为，很多时候，我们作为人，在为他人构建产品时，都会达到这样的程度：我们希望在内心深处得到的反馈是这样的：“哇，你构建了多么令人惊叹的产品。”
Daniel Lereya: And I think this is a very bad feedback to get for initial things that you are doing.
Daniel Lereya：我认为对于你最初所做的事情来说，这是一个非常糟糕的反馈。
Because it means that, I feel that in many ways, the point in which you make real people use your product is really scary.
因为这意味着，我觉得从很多方面来说，让真正的人使用你的产品这一点真的很可怕。
Because you suddenly put your work out there and then in order to actually, and you are afraid that they will say, "Listen, it's a lousy product, it's not a good product." But actually we really encourage people to get really fast production, to put traps for themselves that is called by time and not by effort.
因为你突然把你的工作放在那里，然后为了实际上，你担心他们会说，“听着，这是一个糟糕的产品，它不是一个好产品。”但实际上我们真的鼓励人们获得非常快的生产，为自己设置陷阱，这是时间而不是努力的结果。
Daniel Lereya: And, many times I saw that more time creates more questions.
Daniel Lereya：而且，很多时候我发现更多的时间会产生更多的问题。
It creates more complications.
它会造成更多的并发症。
It creates more assumptions that we put for ourselves in thinking what our users need.
它为我们在思考用户需求时做出了更多假设。
And we invent things.
我们发明了东西。
Daniel Lereya: And we do it all from good reasons.
Daniel Lereya：我们这样做都是有充分理由的。
We want people to like what we build, we want them to get value.
我们希望人们喜欢我们构建的东西，我们希望他们获得价值。
But, for me, this is a very important point that many times using, like the setting traps mechanism of saying, "Listen, we have three weeks, let's think about it."
但是，对我来说，这是非常重要的一点，很多时候都会使用，就像设置陷阱机制一样，“听着，我们有三个星期的时间，让我们考虑一下。”
Daniel Lereya: And by time, it makes you extremely focused.
Daniel Lereya：随着时间的推移，它会让你变得非常专注。
And this is very important because we really want to get feedback from customers that say, "Yeah, listen, this is on the direction.
这非常重要，因为我们真的希望从客户那里得到反馈，“是的，听着，这是方向。
I'm still missing this and this and this.
我仍然想念这个、这个和这个。
And also we really love the fact of this is not a good product."
而且我们真的很喜欢这不是一个好产品。”
Daniel Lereya: And I can give you a recent example.
Daniel Lereya：我可以举一个最近的例子。
Even when now we work with big customers and, of course, there are different ways to implement what I said than you are a small startup.
即使现在我们与大客户合作，当然，与小型初创公司相比，实施我所说的方法也有不同的方法。
But we are building a new offering of enterprise work management.
但我们正在构建一种新的企业工作管理产品。
Think about it like a way of managing projects.
将其视为一种管理项目的方式。
It's a huge, huge scale.
这是一个巨大、巨大的规模。
Thousands of projects like tens of thousands of employees and so on.
数千个项目，例如数万名员工等等。
Daniel Lereya: So, I really love using the deadline trap and it makes you focused, it makes you sharper in thinking.
Daniel Lereya：所以，我真的很喜欢使用截止日期陷阱，它让你集中注意力，让你的思维更加敏锐。
And, we just had a recent example with the offering I was telling you about of enterprise work management, managing project at scale.
而且，我们刚刚有一个最近的例子，其中包含我向您介绍的企业工作管理、大规模管理项目的产品。
And this is an enterprise product.
这是一个企业产品。
Daniel Lereya: So you have all the reasons in the world to say, "No, I can't release it, yet.
Daniel Lereya：所以你有充分的理由说：“不，我还不能发布它。
I need more time.
我需要更多时间。
I need to do more things.
我需要做更多的事情。
They won't use it.
他们不会使用它。
They need this and this and this."
他们需要这个、这个、这个。”
Daniel Lereya: And I think that we actually released the first alpha version to them.
Daniel Lereya：我认为我们实际上向他们发布了第一个 alpha 版本。
And we got a feedback of, "Listen guys, this is premature.
我们得到的反馈是：“听着，伙计们，这还为时过早。
We need more comprehensive value." But we got exactly the feedback of what, and this is priceless.
我们需要更全面的价值。”但我们得到了确切的反馈，这是无价的。
Daniel Lereya: And my response to the teams is, "Well done.
Daniel Lereya：我对团队的回应是：“干得好。
I think you did an amazing job in releasing it and making sure." Because many times, being so afraid of releasing it and thinking, "If I just have 1, 2, 3 more weeks, I will build a better product." I think it's not true.
我认为你在发布和确保方面做得非常出色。”因为很多时候，我非常害怕发布它，并想：“如果我再多 1、2、3 周的时间，我就能打造出更好的产品。”我认为这不是真的。
Lenny Rachitsky: This is such good advice.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是很好的建议。
It resonates so much with recent other conversations I've had.
它与我最近进行的其他对话产生了很大的共鸣。
So, just to clarify what you're saying, basically, you have a time box.
所以，为了澄清你所说的，基本上，你有一个时间框。
Lenny Rachitsky: When you say traps, it's basically a set amount of time.
Lenny Rachitsky：当你说陷阱时，它基本上是指一段固定的时间。
We're going to spend three weeks on this feature and if we don't hit the three weeks, we just cut scope, essentially.
我们将花三周的时间来开发这个功能，如果我们没有达到三周的时间，我们基本上就会缩小范围。
Is that the idea?
是这个想法吗？
Daniel Lereya: I think, yeah, it's like this is the basic version of it.
Daniel Lereya：我想，是的，这就是它的基本版本。
Daniel Lereya: But now, for us, we really want and we really love doing it as an exercise for ourself.
Daniel Lereya：但是现在，对于我们来说，我们真的想要并且我们真的很喜欢将其作为对自己的锻炼。
For instance, let's say, now as a public company we say, "Listen, we're working on something.
例如，假设现在作为一家上市公司，我们说：“听着，我们正在做某事。
We want to announce it on the next earning.
我们想在下一次财报中宣布这一点。
And put a trap for ourselves."
并为我们自己设下陷阱。”
Daniel Lereya: Why?
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：为什么？
Because, again, it makes you sharp.
因为，它再次让你变得敏锐。
It makes you super focused about things.
它让你超级专注于事情。
And I think that in many ways this results in a much better product because you are not building things that you invented.
我认为，从很多方面来说，这会带来更好的产品，因为你并不是在构建自己发明的东西。
You are staying really true to what your users needs, the real core of the value.
您真正忠于用户的需求，即价值的真正核心。
Daniel Lereya: And, it's really funny to see the dynamics of teams when they are planning from the bottom up.
Daniel Lereya：而且，看到团队自下而上规划时的动态真的很有趣。
So, it starts with something that like let's say you've done everything great.
所以，一切都是从这样的事情开始的：假设你已经把一切都做得很好了。
Okay, you have the opportunity, you understand, you have the KPIs, everything is in place, but now you're starting to plan it.
好吧，你有机会，你明白，你有 KPI，一切都已就位，但现在你开始计划了。
Daniel Lereya: And, suddenly, people are raising concerns and issues.
Daniel Lereya：突然间，人们提出了担忧和问题。
And it becomes a sport to say what can go wrong and like being fear- driven.
说出可能出问题的地方已经成为一种运动，就像被恐惧驱使一样。
And then you tend to protect yourself and adding more content and more content.
然后你就会倾向于保护自己并添加更多的内容。
And then when you see what happens, it's actually, it's going to be shipped in two years.
然后当你看到发生的事情时，实际上，它将在两年内发货。
Daniel Lereya: And then we say, "Okay, no. Okay, we have earnings in two months.
Daniel Lereya：然后我们说，“好吧，不。好吧，我们两个月后就会有收入。
What can we ship to this earnings?
我们可以为这个收益带来什么？
And let's put a tab." And then you suddenly see the conversation changes.
让我们贴上标签。”然后你突然发现对话发生了变化。
First of all, it makes everyone really focused on what's the core of the value.
首先，它让每个人真正关注价值的核心是什么。
And it removes all the theoretical discussions that people have and things like that.
它消除了人们进行的所有理论讨论以及类似的事情。
Daniel Lereya: And, the results are amazing.
Daniel Lereya：而且，结果是惊人的。
And you need to remember when you do it, you need to continue afterwards like according to feedbacks and not let it go just but what you did in the first version.
而且你需要记住，当你这样做时，你需要像根据反馈一样继续之后，而不是仅仅放弃你在第一个版本中所做的事情。
But, in many ways, I really love the fact that the first version get the feedback, which is not everything is perfect because if this is the feedback, it means that we built too much and probably it's not focused product enough.
但是，从很多方面来说，我真的很喜欢第一个版本获得反馈，这并不是一切都是完美的，因为如果这是反馈，则意味着我们构建了太多，并且可能不够专注于产品。
Daniel Lereya: And when you build a lot of features, this can be like a death by a thousand cuts because in each corner of the product you add more than you need.
Daniel Lereya：当你构建很多功能时，这可能就像千刀万剐，因为在产品的每个角落你添加的都超出了你的需要。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah, there's so much here that connects the other conversation we just had.
Lenny Rachitsky：是的，这里有很多内容与我们刚刚进行的其他对话有关。
We had Gaurav Misra, he's the CEO of Captions and he made this point that if people aren't complaining about your product, you want to see people complaining because that means they care.
我们有 Gaurav Misra，他是 Captions 的首席执行官，他指出，如果人们没有抱怨你的产品，你希望看到人们抱怨，因为这意味着他们关心。
There's something there that they care about.
那里有他们关心的东西。
If you're not hearing any complaints, they could care less about what you're building and that's a bad sign.
如果您没有听到任何投诉，他们可能不太关心您正在构建的内容，这是一个坏兆头。
Lenny Rachitsky: Their company actually goes to the extreme of what you're describing.
Lenny Rachitsky：他们的公司实际上走向了你所描述的极端。
Every engineer ships a marketable feature every week.
每个工程师每周都会发布一个适销对路的功能。
That's their pace.
这就是他们的节奏。
Daniel Lereya: I really connected to it.
Daniel Lereya：我真的很喜欢它。
And by the way, about user feedback, I think it's really nice because many times people associate, like they only measure themselves by user feedback and a specific point.
顺便说一句，关于用户反馈，我认为这真的很好，因为很多时候人们会联想到，就像他们只通过用户反馈和特定点来衡量自己一样。
And I think this is also maybe something that is counterintuitive.
我认为这也许也是违反直觉的。
Not every customer feedback is the feedback that will drive you to the end result of the best product out there.
并非所有客户反馈都会促使您获得最佳产品的最终结果。
Daniel Lereya: There are many aspects to it.
Daniel Lereya：有很多方面。
I can share just one example about us.
我只能分享一个关于我们的例子。
We, as a, in the beginning of the company, we, for instance, didn't want to have a free trial.
例如，作为公司成立之初，我们不想进行免费试用。
And part of it is that we really wanted to hear feedback about our product only from people that the product means something to them.
部分原因是我们真的只想听到人们对我们产品的反馈，认为该产品对他们有意义。
The best proxy for that is that they are paying because it means they get real value.
最好的体现是他们付费，因为这意味着他们获得了真正的价值。
And you know, in that sense it helped us at the beginning to stay super focused about separating the wheat from the shaft with the customer's feedback.
你知道，从这个意义上说，它帮助我们一开始就根据客户的反馈集中精力将小麦与轴分离。
So I think it's a super important point and we need to take customer feedback in context.
所以我认为这是非常重要的一点，我们需要结合实际情况考虑客户的反馈。
Lenny Rachitsky: The other really interesting point here that you're making is this idea of, we had, I think I mentioned this already, Ryan Singer, he's the creator of this method, Shape Up, which is very centered around appetites over deadlines.
Lenny Rachitsky：你提出的另一个非常有趣的观点是，我们有，我想我已经提到过这一点，Ryan Singer，他是这种方法“Shape Up”的创造者，该方法非常以截止日期前的胃口为中心。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's so many, everyone listening to this has probably gone through an exercise where like, "Let's redo our landing page." And it's like, "Yeah, it'll probably have some impact.
Lenny Rachitsky：有很多，每个听这个的人可能都经历过类似的练习，“让我们重做我们的登陆页面。”就像，“是的，这可能会产生一些影响。
Let's spend some time on this."
让我们花一些时间在这上面。”
Lenny Rachitsky: It ends up taking six months.
Lenny Rachitsky：最终需要六个月的时间。
And everyone's like, "Why did we spend six months redoing this freaking landing page?
每个人都会说，“为什么我们花了六个月的时间重做这个该死的登陆页面？
I would've given it three weeks and then moved on."
我会给它三周的时间，然后继续前进。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And the way to do that is you just commit upfront, "We will spend three weeks on this.
Lenny Rachitsky：要做到这一点，你只需预先承诺，“我们将花三周的时间来解决这个问题。
We'll get as much done as we can in three weeks and then we'll move on."
我们将在三周内完成尽可能多的工作，然后继续前进。”
Lenny Rachitsky: People talk about this very hard to actually do so I love that's how you actually approach some of these bigger features you work on.
Lenny Rachitsky：人们谈论这一点很难真正做到，所以我喜欢这就是你实际处理你正在开发的一些更大功能的方式。
Do you guys practice Shape Up by any chance or this is just a thing you do?
你们是偶然练习Shape Up 还是这只是你们所做的事情？
Daniel Lereya: No, actually, I wasn't that familiar with it, but I definitely going to check it out.
Daniel Lereya：不，实际上，我对此不太熟悉，但我肯定会去看看。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，酷。
Yeah, it's a whole method.
是的，这是一个完整的方法。
And I think the episode right before this is actually that episode.
我认为之前的那一集实际上就是那一集。
Okay.
好的。
Let me go in a different direction and kind of keep extracting lessons from this journey because that was a really fruitful place to go.
让我朝不同的方向前进，并不断从这次旅程中汲取教训，因为那是一个非常富有成效的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: So let me ask you this question.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我问你这个问题。
What's one thing that you wish you'd known before stepping into the role that you're in today?
在担任今天的职位之前，您希望自己知道的一件事是什么？
Daniel Lereya: This is an interesting question.
Daniel Lereya：这是一个有趣的问题。
I think there are many aspects to it and maybe if I'll take the personal aspects.
我认为这有很多方面，也许我会考虑个人方面。
So I've been in charge of the product and technology from since I joined the company.
所以从我加入公司开始，我就一直负责产品和技术。
But with that, my role has changed, I think, dozens of times.
但随之而来的是，我认为我的角色已经改变了数十次。
Daniel Lereya: I feel I'm very fortunate to work in one company but actually work in dozens of different companies.
Daniel Lereya：我觉得我很幸运能够在一家公司工作，但实际上我在数十家不同的公司工作。
Think about the scale that we talked about.
想想我们谈到的规模。
Each point is a different, it's actually a different company and a different role and a different challenge.
每个点都是不同的，实际上是不同的公司、不同的角色和不同的挑战。
Daniel Lereya: And I think that something that maybe is counterintuitive personally, for me, was that in many of the phases that we undergrowed with, I felt that what got me to this phase is not necessarily what's going to make me successful in the next phase.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：我认为对我个人来说可能违反直觉的是，在我们成长不足的许多阶段中，我觉得让我进入这个阶段的东西不一定会让我在下一阶段取得成功。
Daniel Lereya: And if I want to be even more blunt, there will personally times when suddenly I saw how my biggest strength, for instance like, mastering all the details and having everything in my head knowing exactly what's happening on every corner of what we do.
Daniel Lereya：如果我想更直白的话，我个人有时会突然看到我最大的优势，例如，掌握所有细节，让一切都在我的脑海中，准确地知道我们所做的每个角落发生的事情。
This was probably something that gave a lot of value when we were small.
这可能是我们小时候很有价值的东西。
Daniel Lereya: But, as we got bigger, I think it suddenly created even the damage continuing to do the same thing.
Daniel Lereya：但是，随着我们变得更大，我认为它突然造成了持续做同样事情的损害。
And in many ways, it takes time to do this realization.
从很多方面来说，实现这一目标需要时间。
And I think that a good advice that I would love to have is that don't be afraid again to let go of things that you think are superpowers.
我认为我希望得到的一个好建议是，不要再次害怕放弃你认为是超能力的东西。
Daniel Lereya: Many times your superpowers that brought you to this point and made you successful, many times you think that if you let it go you won't be successful and it's frightening.
Daniel Lereya：很多时候你的超能力让你走到了这一步并让你成功，很多时候你认为如果你放手你就不会成功，这很可怕。
But, I really feel that you need to constantly evaluate what your current role is actually, is actually what is the role?
但是，我真的觉得你需要不断地评估你现在的角色到底是什么，到底是什么角色？
And what is needed in order to be successful in it and not continue with the inertia?
为了取得成功而不是继续惯性，需要什么？
Daniel Lereya: And this is something that I wish someone has told me.
Daniel Lereya：我希望有人告诉我这一点。
Yeah.
是的。
It took me time in many cases, you know?
很多时候我花了很多时间，你知道吗？
Many cases I did it too late.
很多时候我做得太晚了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Is there anything that helped you realize this or get good at this?
Lenny Rachitsky：有什么东西可以帮助你认识到这一点或者擅长这一点吗？
Is it like coaching?
是不是像教练一样？
Is it just doing it and surviving and failing and be like, "Oh, I see."
难道只是做事然后生存然后失败然后说“哦，我明白了”。
Daniel Lereya: I think all of the above.
Daniel Lereya：我认为以上都是。
I think that one sign for that, for me, was that in many cases I felt I'm doing a very good job.
我认为对我来说，一个迹象是，在很多情况下我觉得自己做得很好。
But then people, it can be like, I'll give you an example.
但人们可能会说，我给你们举个例子。
Okay?
好的？
Daniel Lereya: For instance, doing a company like Leadership QBRs.
Daniel Lereya：例如，做一家像领导力 QBR 这样的公司。
Okay, quarterly business reviews.
好的，季度业务回顾。
So, when we just started it with it very early, I would actually tell about everything.
所以，当我们很早就开始的时候，我实际上会告诉一切。
Daniel Lereya: And I remember one meeting that I went out of the meeting and I say, "Wow, I really managed to convey everything and explain everything in a very articulated way."
Daniel Lereya：我记得有一次会议结束后，我说：“哇，我真的成功地以非常清晰的方式传达了所有内容并解释了所有内容。”
Daniel Lereya: And one of my colleagues in the core leadership team said, "Well, I didn't understand anything.
Daniel Lereya：我核心领导团队的一位同事说：“嗯，我什么都不懂。
What is the bottom line of all of this?" And it was like you suddenly realize that what you thought is good is not necessarily what the other people needs from you at this point.
这一切的底线是什么？”就像你突然意识到，你认为好的东西不一定是其他人此时需要你提供的东西。
Daniel Lereya: And after understanding that, I went and ask, "What would be beneficial for you?" He said, "Listen, I want to keep in my head the three most meaningful things that you are currently facing with.
Daniel Lereya：明白这一点后，我去问，“什么对你有好处？”他说：“听着，我想把你目前面临的三件最有意义的事情记在我的脑海里。
I don't want to hear everything."
我不想听到一切。”
Daniel Lereya: And it's hard.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：这很难。
But, this was the point for me that I realized that I need to change.
但是，这对我来说是我意识到我需要改变的一点。
And I need to change something and the requirements are different.
我需要改变一些东西并且要求不同。
Daniel Lereya: At the beginning I tried to say, "But, listen, it's important that you know you are sticking to it." Right?
Daniel Lereya：一开始我试图说，“但是，听着，重要的是你知道你正在坚持下去。”正确的？
But we need to let it go sometimes and think from the beginning.
但有时我们需要放手，从头开始思考。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's this phrase that someone shared on this podcast once where, as you rise in your career, you often go from the person that is pitching leaders on something to the person being pitched.
Lenny Rachitsky：有人在这个播客上分享过这样一句话，当你在职业生涯中崛起时，你经常会从向领导者推销某件事的人变成被推销的人。
And that's a really weird place to move from, having to learn how to give great feedback, delegate, let go of things.
这是一个非常奇怪的地方，必须学习如何提供良好的反馈、委派、放手。
And I love that this is a good example of that.
我喜欢这是一个很好的例子。
Lenny Rachitsky: Since we're getting a little vulnerable and open about stuff, I want to try this question.
Lenny Rachitsky：由于我们变得有点脆弱和开放，我想尝试这个问题。
You've done a lot of podcasts, you've done a lot of interviews, you've been all over the place.
你做过很多播客，做过很多采访，去过很多地方。
Is there anything you haven't shared anywhere else that might be helpful to share here about the journey you've been on?
对于您所经历的旅程，是否有任何您未在其他地方分享过的内容可能对在这里分享有所帮助？
Daniel Lereya: Yeah, so, maybe continuing with the same point.
Daniel Lereya：是的，所以，也许继续同样的观点。
It's a crazy journey and it's a crazy personal journey.
这是一次疯狂的旅程，也是一次疯狂的个人旅程。
If you think about it, I remember Roy once said, "If someone would've interviewed me to a public company of, like I would say $10 billion in market cap and managing 2,500 employees, I'm not sure that I would interview myself and get myself to the job."
如果你仔细想想，我记得罗伊曾经说过，“如果有人面试我一家市值 100 亿美元并管理 2,500 名员工的上市公司，我不确定我是否会面试自己并让自己得到这份工作。”
Daniel Lereya: And, for me, there were a lot of moments and it's constantly happening.
Daniel Lereya：对我来说，有很多时刻，而且它不断发生。
You know, when things are going sideways and things doesn't work, and you see so many things are breaking down.
你知道，当事情出现问题并且事情不起作用时，你会看到很多事情都崩溃了。
You can be on the same day super happy and suddenly on the lowest point there is.
你可能会在同一天超级快乐，但突然就跌入最低点。
Daniel Lereya: And I can show you, no. Many times I've asked myself whether I'm the right person to lead it, whether we need someone that is coming with all the experience to this phase.
Daniel Lereya：我可以告诉你，不。我多次问自己，我是否是领导这个阶段的合适人选，我们是否需要一个拥有这一阶段所有经验的人。
And I remember talked to that day with Ron.
我记得那天和罗恩谈过。
He tell me, he told me something, "Listen, first of all, as the one who built it, no one would be able to do it like you."
他告诉我，他告诉我一些事情，“听着，首先，作为建造它的人，没有人能够像你一样做到这一点。”
Daniel Lereya: And I think it's an important thing to remember when times are tough.
Daniel Lereya：我认为在困难时期记住这一点很重要。
I really believe that if you have the passion, and if you have the will, and if you are willing to do the hard work in order to constantly adjust and evolve and to be vulnerable and also to say about yourself, "I didn't understand something.
我真的相信，如果你有激情，如果你有意愿，如果你愿意付出艰苦的努力，以便不断调整和发展，并保持脆弱，也可以说自己，“我不明白一些事情。
Now, I need to learn it and I need to deal things differently."
现在，我需要学习它，我需要以不同的方式处理事情。”
Daniel Lereya: It's a very important point if you want to do this kind of a journey.
Daniel Lereya：如果你想做这样的旅程，这是非常重要的一点。
And it's hard.
这很难。
And something I can share, I can reassure everyone that are listening to us, if you are feeling it, you are not the only one.
我可以分享一些东西，我可以向每个正在听我们讲话的人保证，如果你有这种感觉，你并不是唯一一个。
Everyone are feeling it from once in a while.
每个人都会时不时地感受到这一点。
Be confident about yourself.
对自己要有信心。
Be vulnerable in order to learn and to evolve.
为了学习和发展，要变得脆弱。
Daniel Lereya: And I really love to do a mental exercise of saying, like we said about the product.
Daniel Lereya：我真的很喜欢做一个心理练习，就像我们对产品所说的那样。
So, let's say I'm Daniel of next six months.
那么，假设我是未来六个月的丹尼尔。
How do I want to look back on these six months?
我想如何回顾这六个月？
And what do I want to say about myself that I learned that I evolved?
当我了解到自己是进化的时候，我想对自己说什么？
And this helped you get out from the state of everything is okay, I am good.
这帮助你摆脱了“一切都好，我很好”的状态。
And it makes you want to learn and want to evolve.
它让你想要学习并想要发展。
Daniel Lereya: And also staying doing mode.
Daniel Lereya：并且还要保持做事模式。
I don't believe in, I think one thing that really characterized me is that it can be very difficult and very challenging time.
我不相信，我认为真正让我有特点的一件事是，这可能是非常困难和充满挑战的时期。
But on the next day, I'm already bouncing back with energy.
但第二天，我已经恢复了精力。
And in order to come and do things and win it.
为了来做事并赢得胜利。
Daniel Lereya: And there are a lot of things that we, as leaders, needs to do in order to help ourselves to keep this mental state.
Daniel Lereya：作为领导者，我们需要做很多事情来帮助自己保持这种精神状态。
So, I like to run.
所以，我喜欢跑步。
I like to do things that are unrelated to work in order to get back to my center.
我喜欢做一些与工作无关的事情，以便回到我的中心。
Daniel Lereya: But then quickly bounce back and to really believe in myself, in the team around me.
Daniel Lereya：但很快就会恢复过来，并真正相信自己，相信我周围的团队。
So this, yeah, this is something maybe very personal, but I am pretty sure I'm not the only one feeling it.
所以，是的，这可能是非常个人化的事情，但我很确定我不是唯一有这种感觉的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: I appreciate you sharing that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我很感谢你分享这一点。
There's a post that I did a long time ago with a coach and it was about imposter syndrome.
很久以前我和一位教练一起发表了一篇关于冒名顶替综合症的文章。
And she made this really powerful point that you are actually an imposter in the role you're in.
她提出了一个非常有力的观点，即你实际上是你所扮演的角色的冒名顶替者。
You've never done this before.
你以前从未这样做过。
Lenny Rachitsky: Most people are imposters in their role.
Lenny Rachitsky：大多数人在他们的角色中都是冒名顶替者。
They've never been a chief product officer.
他们从来没有担任过首席产品官。
In a lot of cases they've never led teams this large.
在很多情况下，他们从来没有领导过这么大的团队。
And first of all just realize that you actually are.
首先要意识到你确实是这样。
Lenny Rachitsky: And second of all, that's okay and most people are like you said.
Lenny Rachitsky：其次，这没关系，大多数人都像你说的那样。
And then third of all, this advice you shared about how to work through that is really powerful.
第三，您分享的关于如何解决这个问题的建议非常有效。
Just like know many people feel this way.
就像知道很多人都有这种感觉一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: Work hard, I think, is a really important part of this.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为，努力工作是其中非常重要的一部分。
Just like know there's another day and that you can bounce back.
就像知道还有另一天，你可以反弹一样。
Daniel Lereya: Remember that everyone are people.
Daniel Lereya：请记住，每个人都是人。
No one is born to be in the world that he's currently at.
没有人天生就生活在他现在所处的世界里。
And another thing that in Monday we're scaling so fast.
周一我们的另一件事是扩张速度如此之快。
So even people that are coming with experience and I had the chance to see it over and over again, because we're going so fast, each one of us will get to a point, which is the first time he's doing it sooner or later.
因此，即使是那些有经验的人，我也有机会一遍又一遍地看到它，因为我们进展得如此之快，我们每个人迟早都会到达一个点，这是他第一次这样做。
Daniel Lereya: So, experience matters and we have a lot of people that are coming and bringing experience from the outside.
Daniel Lereya：所以，经验很重要，我们有很多人从外部带来经验。
But also remember that and remember that everyone are people and no one was born in a position.
但也要记住这一点，记住每个人都是人，没有人出生在一个职位上。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
And in companies like yours, people have described it as every six months you have a new job.
在像你们这样的公司中，人们将其描述为每六个月就有一份新工作。
Lenny Rachitsky: Cheryl Sandberg once did a talk that I was at where people are complaining.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：谢丽尔·桑德伯格曾经做过一次演讲，说我当时就在人们抱怨的地方。
It was just like, "So much is changing, we're growing.
就像，“很多事情正在发生变化，我们正在成长。
The culture is not as strong as it was, and there's just like things not working.
文化不再像以前那么强大，而且有些事情不起作用。
Our processes are no, hiring is hard."
我们的流程不行，招聘很难。”
Lenny Rachitsky: And she's just like, "This is the problems you want because you're growing very fast and that's very good.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：她就像是，“这就是你想要的问题，因为你成长得非常快，这非常好。
Versus, if you were not growing, it'd be much more painful and hard.
相反，如果你不成长，那就会更加痛苦和艰难。
So, be thankful this is the problems you're facing."
所以，庆幸这就是你面临的问题。”
Lenny Rachitsky: You talked about things breaking along the way and things you had to deal with.
Lenny Rachitsky：您谈到了一路上发生的事情以及您必须处理的事情。
Is there an example of something?
有什么例子吗？
I love these stories of just maybe a moment of crisis along the journey where you thought like, "Okay, things are going to fall apart.
我喜欢这些故事，讲述旅途中可能出现的危机时刻，你会想，“好吧，事情就要崩溃了。
This is over.
这已经结束了。
See you, everyone."
大家再见。”
Daniel Lereya: Yeah.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：是的。
To be honest, we have so many.
说实话，我们有很多。
But, again, this is the problems that you are lucky to have.
但是，这又是你幸运地遇到的问题。
But, yeah, maybe I'll give you an example.
但是，是的，也许我会给你举个例子。
Daniel Lereya: I remember this day that someone from our customer success team has approached me and say, "Listen, Daniel, we have a spike in performance issues in the board." And again, our boards is this table of think about it like of data.
Daniel Lereya：我记得今天，我们客户成功团队的一个人找到我说：“听着，丹尼尔，我们董事会的绩效问题激增。”再说一次，我们的董事会就是这张像数据一样思考的表格。
Daniel Lereya: And on each time we add new functionality and we make the platform more mature, people are taking it to the extreme.
Daniel Lereya：每次我们添加新功能并使平台变得更加成熟时，人们都会将其发挥到极致。
So, if you look back eight years ago, so this kind of tables usually had like, let's say, five columns and 100 rows.
所以，如果你回顾八年前，这种表通常有 5 列和 100 行。
And if you look about it today, it's like hundreds of columns, tens of thousands of rows.
如果你今天看一下，它就像数百列，数万行。
Daniel Lereya: And so, performance is always a challenge and struggle in making sure that everything works smoothly.
Daniel Lereya：因此，为了确保一切顺利进行，性能始终是一个挑战和斗争。
And this is also a value to us.
这对我们来说也是一种价值。
We really believe that performance is the number one feature that makes people use your system.
我们坚信性能是人们使用您的系统的首要特征。
So, we came to me-
所以，我们来找我——
Daniel Lereya: System.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：系统。
He came to me, and I remember that suddenly seeing the spike in the tickets, it's super hard, right?
他来找我，我记得突然看到门票飙升，这太难了，对吧？
You say, wow, it's something super hard.
你说，哇，这真是太难了。
You don't necessarily have a magic wand of fixing it immediately.
你不一定有立即修复它的魔杖。
And what we did, we actually, again, connected everyone to it.
我们所做的，实际上再次将每个人都连接到了它。
The first thing they did was taking disc golf to everyone in the team and showing and thinking together what we can do.
他们做的第一件事就是向团队中的每个人展示飞盘高尔夫，并向团队中的每个人展示和思考我们可以做什么。
And we did a lot of things and we worked really hard and we managed to make this situation better.
我们做了很多事情，我们非常努力，我们设法让这种情况变得更好。
And then time passed by and you are continuing, and then it happened again.
然后时间过去了，你还在继续，然后又发生了。
And I can share that on the third time I said, "Okay, we had enough.
我可以在第三次说的时候分享这一点：“好吧，我们受够了。
We need to think totally different in a different way." And back in the days, this is where I think many of our core long-term projects have born.
我们需要以不同的方式思考完全不同的问题。”过去，我认为这就是我们许多核心长期项目诞生的地方。
The signature one would be MondayDB.
签名是 MondayDB。
It's a name we use for an underlying data infrastructure that we've been building in the last three years or so.
这是我们在过去三年左右构建的底层数据基础设施的名称。
Daniel Lereya: Think about a very small team and a very small startup.
Daniel Lereya：想想一个非常小的团队和一个非常小的初创公司。
I remember the day that we said, listen, we need few of our most talented people that are now not going to contribute features anymore.
我记得那天我们说，听着，我们需要的最有才华的人现在不会再贡献功能了。
We are putting them on a separate place, and let's think and solve this problem while thinking about 100X.
我们把它们放在一个单独的地方，让我们一边思考100X一边思考并解决这个问题。
And it really, in many ways, so different from what we talked about in so many other of the examples, right?
在很多方面，它确实与我们在许多其他示例中讨论的内容非常不同，对吧？
And I think now we said, listen, instead of being fixing an issue, we want this to be our competitive edge.
我想现在我们说，听着，我们希望这成为我们的竞争优势，而不是解决问题。
We have a very unique product architecture where everyone can build their own schemas of the table.
我们拥有非常独特的产品架构，每个人都可以构建自己的表架构。
And it's a crazy thing in terms of technology behind it.
就其背后的技术而言，这是一件疯狂的事情。
We want to do something that will not only solve the problem, but also will serve us as a competitive edge.
我们想做的事情不仅能解决问题，还能为我们带来竞争优势。
And we took a huge risk because we took a lot of people and put them aside for that, or not a lot of people, but the very talented people.
我们冒了巨大的风险，因为我们把很多人放在一边，或者不是很多人，而是非常有才华的人。
Daniel Lereya: And I think in retrospect, by the way we released MondayDB, I think one and a half years ago, the first version, it did a huge, huge change for customers.
Daniel Lereya：我认为回想起来，我们发布 MondayDB 的方式，我认为一年半前，第一个版本，它为客户带来了巨大的变化。
And in many ways, this is what actually makes us today a platform which is enterprise-grade.
从很多方面来说，这实际上使我们今天成为了企业级平台。
My lesson from that is that if you feel about something, it is strategic.
我从中得到的教训是，如果你对某件事有感觉，那么它就是战略性的。
You need to not only solve problems, but be super proactive.
你不仅需要解决问题，还需要超级积极主动。
And also, again, this contradicts the fact of, what are the goals, what are we going to achieve because you need to lean on something which is strategic.
而且，这又与我们的目标是什么、我们要实现什么目标相矛盾，因为你需要依靠战略性的东西。
With everything that we said at the beginning of the conversation, there is also things that you need to do because this is the company you want to build, this is the product that you want to build.
就我们在谈话开始时所说的一切而言，还有一些你需要做的事情，因为这是你想要建立的公司，这是你想要建立的产品。
And you don't necessarily get the of getting conviction from things that happened in the past or from data.
而且你不一定能从过去发生的事情或数据中获得信念。
You need to just go with your intuition and take this risk.
你需要跟随你的直觉并承担这个风险。
And I'm super happy that we did it, but this is an example where things really broke and what we did with it.
我非常高兴我们做到了，但这是一个事情真正崩溃的例子以及我们用它做了什么。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a couple other stories of crisis I'm thinking back to, and they all seem to be a database started reaching capacity and we are about to fall apart 'cause their growth was too fast.
Lenny Rachitsky：我回想起另外几个危机故事，它们似乎都是数据库开始达到容量上限，而我们即将崩溃，因为它们的增长太快了。
That's an interesting lesson for people to hear, just try to anticipate this a little more.
对于人们来说，这是一个有趣的教训，只要尝试更多地预测这一点即可。
And sounds like that's what you realized is let's think a 100X from now, not just a couple years from now.
听起来你意识到，让我们想想从现在起 100 倍，而不仅仅是几年后。
It reminds me of, so Brian Johnson, he's this dude that's trying to live forever or as long as he can and he makes this really interesting point that I promise connects to what you're talking about, which is he's like, okay, what is your goal?
这让我想起了布莱恩·约翰逊，他是一个试图永远活下去或尽可能长寿的家伙，他提出了一个非常有趣的观点，我保证这与你正在谈论的内容有关，他说，好吧，你的目标是什么？
He asked everyone, what's your life goal?
他问大家，你们的人生目标是什么？
And so they're like, oh, I want to do this and this and that.
所以他们就像，哦，我想做这个、这个、那个。
To accomplish that, the base goal you're not even thinking about is you need to not die.
为了实现这一目标，你甚至没有考虑过的基本目标是你需要不死。
And that's actually the number one goal everyone should have, don't die.
这实际上是每个人都应该拥有的首要目标，不要死。
And I feel like that's infrastructure in companies is you have all these metrics and goals, but really the goal underneath that is your infrastructure needs to scale.
我觉得公司的基础设施是你拥有所有这些指标和目标，但真正的目标是你的基础设施需要扩展。
It makes sense why this is outside of, okay, we have all these metrics and goals, this is-
这是有道理的，为什么这是在外面，好吧，我们有所有这些指标和目标，这是-
Daniel Lereya: Yeah.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：是的。
Not necessarily treating it as a tax or as a risk, but rather for our offering as a platform, this is actually now one of our core advantages.
不一定将其视为税收或风险，而是对于我们作为平台的产品而言，这实际上现在是我们的核心优势之一。
It's super important as well, that value to customers comes in different ways, shapes and forms.
同样非常重要的是，对客户的价值有不同的方式、形式和形式。
And you need to think about the experience and not only about...
你需要考虑体验，而不仅仅是……
And many times the general experience start with things that are reliable, performant, that you can count on them and suddenly you even use them differently because they're fast.
很多时候，一般体验都是从可靠的、高性能的、你可以信赖的东西开始的，突然间你甚至会以不同的方式使用它们，因为它们速度很快。
I think this is another important aspect to it.
我认为这是它的另一个重要方面。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's such a good point.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个很好的观点。
When you have a problem, something that's slowing you down or might crumble the company, just not flipping it from how do we just put the bandaid here?
当你遇到问题时，有些事情会拖慢你的速度，或者可能会导致公司崩溃，但如果你不把它从我们如何把创可贴放在这里的地方翻转过来呢？
How do we turn this into a strategic advantage if we really invest the time?
如果我们真的投入时间，如何将其转化为战略优势？
I like that a lot.
我非常喜欢这样。
Okay.
好的。
To start to close out our conversation, I'm going to take us to AI Corner, which is a recurring segment I try to get to more and more with this podcast.
为了结束我们的谈话，我将带我们去人工智能角，这是我试图通过这个播客越来越多地了解的一个反复出现的部分。
And the question is, what's an example of you using AI tools in your day-to-day work to do better work, to do faster work that you think might be helpful to other folks?
问题是，您在日常工作中使用人工智能工具来更好、更快地完成您认为可能对其他人有帮助的工作的例子是什么？
Daniel Lereya: Maybe I start with a personal one.
Daniel Lereya：也许我会从个人的开始。
It's not about work, but I think it really shows that for me, it was a moment of really saying this has so much potential in it.
这与工作无关，但我认为这确实表明对我来说，这是一个真正表明这有如此巨大潜力的时刻。
I actually prepared myself for a marathon and unfortunately I got injured in my knee.
我实际上为马拉松做好了准备，不幸的是我的膝盖受伤了。
Yeah/ I went to do an MRI scan and I finished the scan and they gave me this disc with the results and then they said, "Listen, you need to schedule a doctor appointment five days from now." Okay.
是的/我去做了核磁共振扫描，完成了扫描，他们给了我这张带有结果的光盘，然后他们说，“听着，你需要安排五天后的医生预约。”好的。
I said, I took it, put it in ChatGPT and ask for the results, an explanation of line by line, what does it mean.
我说，我拿了，放到ChatGPT里，求结果，一行一行的解释，什么意思。
And then I of course went to the doctor and said, these are the results.
然后我当然去找医生说，这就是结果。
But I think for me, this is something that I was really happy about using it and it also opens my mind a lot because I think that if you think about it from the product perspective, and this is how we think about AI in Monday, the technology is amazing, you can do so much with it, but there's still the part of productizing it because every person that I talked with him about this example, with enthusiasm he said, "How did you think about putting your MRI there?"
但我认为对我来说，这是我非常高兴使用它的东西，它也让我的思维开阔了很多，因为我认为如果你从产品的角度考虑它，这就是我们周一对人工智能的看法，这项技术是惊人的，你可以用它做很多事情，但仍然有产品化的部分，因为我与他谈论这个例子的每个人都热情地说道，“你是如何考虑把你的核磁共振成像放在那里的？”
Daniel Lereya: And I said, "I don't know, I just did." But this is all creating products that actually allow people to leverage this technology.
Daniel Lereya：我说，“我不知道，我就是知道。”但这一切都是在创造真正允许人们利用这项技术的产品。
And more on the work side, I use it a lot.
在工作方面，我经常使用它。
I think for me, one recent example I would say is we really worked hard towards determining the pricing for AI offering that I was mentioning earlier.
我认为对我来说，最近的一个例子是，我们确实努力确定我之前提到的人工智能产品的定价。
And just in two hours I managed to get the full perspective on what everyone else are doing.
仅仅两个小时，我就成功地全面了解了其他人在做什么。
And we have analysts and we have product managers, but the fact that I was independent and managed to get the initial thoughts and all the information in just a bit, it was mind-blowing.
我们有分析师，也有产品经理，但事实上，我是独立的，并且能够在短时间内获得最初的想法和所有信息，这令人兴奋。
I use it a lot in order to understand things that are very extensive, what the competitors are doing, what is the history of this and that.
我经常使用它来了解非常广泛的事情，竞争对手在做什么，这个那个的历史是什么。
And I think it helped me a lot in that sense.
我认为从这个意义上来说它对我帮助很大。
Lenny Rachitsky: These are awesome examples.
Lenny Rachitsky：这些都是很棒的例子。
And is this all ChatGPT?Is that the tool of choice?
这就是 ChatGPT 的全部吗？这是选择的工具吗？
Daniel Lereya: It's hard.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：这很难。
I have my own periods right now, it's changing from one week to another.
我现在有自己的月经，一周一周地变化。
These two actually were with ChatGPT.
这两个人实际上是 ChatGPT 的成员。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Very cool.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常酷。
The first example, my wife does all the time, my mother-in was in the hospital and we're waiting for the doctor to show up and she just put the chart in ChatGPT and is like, what's the problem?
第一个例子，我的妻子一直这样做，我的岳母在医院，我们正在等待医生出现，她只是将图表放在 ChatGPT 中，然后问，有什么问题吗？
And it's exactly what he told us.
这正是他告诉我们的。
And it feels like we're in a world now where an engineer without, say Cursor or one of these tools, that's not possible anymore.
感觉就像我们现在所处的世界中，工程师如果没有 Cursor 或其中一种工具，就不再可能了。
And it feels now with going to doctors, it's like if you don't do this and see what it says, you're missing out on a big gap.
现在感觉去看医生，如果你不这样做并看看它说了什么，你就会错过一个很大的差距。
There's this New York Times story, I don't know if you've seen where they actually compared a doctor's analysis versus a doctor plus ChatGPT plus just ChatGPT.
《纽约时报》有一篇报道，我不知道你是否看过他们实际上将医生的分析与医生加 ChatGPT 加 ChatGPT 的分析进行了比较。
And guess what was the best, most accurate diagnosis?
猜猜什么是最好、最准确的诊断？
Lenny Rachitsky: That's exactly what it was.
Lenny Rachitsky：事情就是这样。
Not even a doctor with ChatGPT.
甚至连拥有 ChatGPT 的医生都没有。
Daniel Lereya: I'll tell you a story about it.
Daniel Lereya：我会告诉你一个关于它的故事。
In the MRI, I did it because I wanted to go skiing and I didn't know if I can do it or not.
在核磁共振检查中，我这样做是因为我想去滑雪，但我不知道我是否可以做到。
I asked ChatGPT and he said all the recommendations and what I need to do and so on.
我问了ChatGPT，他说了所有的建议以及我需要做什么等等。
And then when I was at the doctor, I asked him the same question, can I do ski?
然后当我去看医生时，我问了他同样的问题，我可以滑雪吗？
He said, "I don't know, I never ski." It's not only about getting the information straight away and getting accuracy, it's the fact that you can continue and deep dive with it.
他说：“我不知道，我从来不滑雪。”这不仅仅是立即获取信息并获得准确性，而是您可以继续深入研究它。
And this is something that also when I was in the pricing, it's not only the bit of information, but the fact that you can continue and continue and continue.
当我在定价时，这不仅仅是一些信息，而是你可以继续、继续、继续的事实。
It's definitely super impressive
这绝对是超级令人印象深刻
Lenny Rachitsky: And it doesn't get annoyed, it doesn't get bored and it's very supportive.
Lenny Rachitsky：它不会生气，不会无聊，而且非常支持。
Yeah,
是的，
Daniel Lereya: Yeah.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：是的。
It's always with good intent, or not, but yeah.
它总是出于善意，或者不是，但是是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: So kind.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：非常友善。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Okay.
好的。
Well Daniel, we've covered a lot of ground.
丹尼尔，我们已经介绍了很多内容。
This was extremely fun.
这非常有趣。
Before we get to a very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you wanted to share?
在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的吗？
Any other nuggets of wisdom you want to leave listeners with?
您还想给听众留下其他宝贵的智慧吗？
Daniel Lereya: I think that in many ways, the things that we managed to achieve in Monday is due to the great people and culture that we have.
Daniel Lereya：我认为，从很多方面来说，我们周一所取得的成就归功于我们拥有优秀的人民和文化。
And on early days, we used to take it for granted in a way, not the people but the culture, the fact that everyone understand, the fact that everyone are practicing it.
在早期，我们曾经在某种程度上认为这是理所当然的，不是人而是文化，事实上每个人都理解，每个人都在实践它。
And then you say, okay, culture is something that you can put your fingers on.
然后你说，好吧，文化是你可以触碰的东西。
But now as we scale, I really see how this is what actually drives everything forward.
但现在，随着我们规模的扩大，我真正看到了这实际上是如何推动一切向前发展的。
Maybe just to say on a personal note that a huge part of how I see my role is about the people and also about how we work together and what kind of an environment we want to build to ourselves.
也许只是就个人而言，我对自己角色的看法很大程度上与人有关，也与我们如何合作以及我们想要为自己建立什么样的环境有关。
And we talked a lot about it during the episode, but I really feel that I can't underestimate on how meaningful it is and how grateful I am that I'm working with such talented people and doing what I love.
我们在这一集中讨论了很多，但我真的觉得我不能低估它的意义，以及我是多么感激能与如此有才华的人一起工作并做我喜欢的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
I bet we could do a whole other episode on just culture and what you've learned.
我打赌我们可以制作一整集关于文化和你所学到的东西。
Building a culture, what the culture is like in Monday, but we got to get to our very exciting lightning round.
建立一种文化，周一的文化是什么样的，但我们必须进入非常激动人心的闪电回合。
Daniel, are you ready?
丹尼尔，你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: All right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
I've got five questions for you.
我有五个问题要问你。
First question is, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
第一个问题是，您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Daniel Lereya: The first one I would say is the No Rules Rules book by Netflix.
Daniel Lereya：我要说的第一本书是 Netflix 的《No Rules Rules》一书。
Back in the days we used even the slides, but I think we took a lot of inspiration out of it.
过去我们甚至使用幻灯片，但我认为我们从中获得了很多灵感。
And I think that although we have different cultures, many of the things around execution, like excellent people and so on are things that I can really resonate with.
而且我觉得虽然我们文化不同，但是很多关于执行力的东西，比如优秀的人等等都是我能够真正产生共鸣的。
And this is something that we really like to give people away after talking about our culture and so on to get inspiration also from other cultures.
这是我们非常喜欢在谈论我们的文化等之后向人们传达的东西，以便从其他文化中获得灵感。
And another maybe on a different aspect is a book that actually Roy, our co-CEO has given to me, its name is Nonviolent Communication.
另一个可能在不同方面的书是我们的联合首席执行官罗伊给我的一本书，书名是《非暴力沟通》。
And it's about effective ways of communication and understanding the people and their needs and how to communicate in a way that actually promotes an effective communication.
它涉及有效的沟通方式、了解人们及其需求，以及如何以真正促进有效沟通的方式进行沟通。
And what I liked about this book is mainly we love to talk a lot and after we both read the book, our way of talking changed.
我喜欢这本书的原因主要是我们很爱说话，在我们都读了这本书之后，我们说话的方式就改变了。
It's very practical.
非常实用。
I also like to give it away to our leadership and people within the team because they think it has real value in it.
我也喜欢将其赠送给我们的领导层和团队内的人员，因为他们认为它具有真正的价值。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm trying to remember the framework of Nonviolent communication is like, I observed you speaking too much in this meeting and that made me feel like I wasn't listened to something like that, right?
Lenny Rachitsky：我试图记住非暴力沟通的框架就像是，我观察到你在这次会议上说得太多，这让我觉得我没有听到类似的事情，对吧？
I forget the .
我忘记了。
Daniel Lereya: You shouldn't be judgmental.
Daniel Lereya：你不应该做出评判。
You just need to say facts and talk about how you feel and act.
您只需要说出事实并谈论您的感受和行为。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: And I know I'm joking about it, but it's actually really powerful.
Lenny Rachitsky：我知道我是在开玩笑，但它实际上非常强大。
And we had Carol Robin on the podcast who created this program at Stanford called Touchy Feely, which is similar to this whole approach to talking.
我们的播客中有卡罗尔·罗宾 (Carol Robin)，她在斯坦福大学创建了这个名为 Touchy Feely 的程序，该程序类似于整个谈话方法。
And by the way, I love the combination of Israeli directness and nonviolent communication.
顺便说一句，我喜欢以色列人的直接性和非暴力沟通的结合。
I want to see that in action.
我想看到它的实际效果。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, next question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?
您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Daniel Lereya: To be honest, I don't watch TV so much.
Daniel Lereya：说实话，我不太看电视。
I get bored really fast and going back to other things.
我很快就会感到无聊并回到其他事情上。
But when I do watch TV, so many times it's in order to clear my head.
但当我看电视时，很多时候都是为了清醒头脑。
It's not that exciting things.
这并不是那么令人兴奋的事情。
Maybe a different thing that I'm doing is playing on the PlayStation with my son.
也许我正在做的另一件事是和我儿子一起玩 PlayStation。
FIFA just to vent out.
国际足联只是为了发泄。
Yeah.
是的。
And in terms of series, maybe one thing that pops up is the Formula.
就系列而言，也许突然出现的一件事就是方程式。
I really liked it.
我真的很喜欢它。
Formula One, Netflix.
一级方程式，Netflix。
Daniel Lereya: Drive to Survive, exactly.
Daniel Lereya：准确地说，是为了生存而开车。
Yeah.
是的。
I really loved seeing the dynamics and everything behind.
我真的很喜欢看到动态和背后的一切。
It looks like something simple of driving cars, but you see that there's so much into it.
驾驶汽车看起来很简单，但你会发现其中有很多东西。
It's also really interesting and opens your mind to watch.
这也很有趣，可以打开你的思维。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
I haven't started the new season yet.
我新赛季还没有开始。
I wonder if it's great.
我想知道这是否很棒。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, next question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?
您最近发现了您真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？
Daniel Lereya: I don't want to fall into all the AI trap in terms of products.
Daniel Lereya：我不想在产品方面陷入所有人工智能陷阱。
Maybe I will say something, which is not so recent, but a product that I love.
也许我会说一些不是最近发生的事情，但却是我喜欢的产品。
I really like to take pictures.
我真的很喜欢拍照。
And one product that I really love is Google Photos.
我真正喜欢的一款产品是 Google Photos。
I think that they managed to create something which takes the technology edge, but to a place where myself as a human really can connect to it and get a lot of value for it.
我认为他们成功地创造了一些具有技术优势的东西，但我作为一个人确实可以与之联系并从中获得很多价值。
I'm a really heavy user of that.
我是它的重度用户。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。
That is a magical product that I think people under appreciate.
这是一个神奇的产品，我认为人们不欣赏它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Next question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：下一个问题。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, find useful and work your own life?
您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，您经常回顾并发现它有用并为自己的生活而努力？
Daniel Lereya: Stay positive.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：保持积极的态度。
I think being positive, seeing the good things is a huge, huge power and it's a huge driver and it allows you to give energy to the people around you and it's contagious.
我认为保持积极的态度，看到美好的事物是一种巨大的力量，它是一个巨大的驱动力，它可以让你为周围的人提供能量，而且它具有感染力。
I really love staying positive, making sure that we keep being optimistic.
我真的很喜欢保持积极的态度，确保我们保持乐观。
And it doesn't mean that you need to let go of the problems and don't see the problems, but also think about always look forward and always think how you can take the current situation and make it better.
这并不意味着你需要放弃问题，看不到问题，而是要始终向前看，始终思考如何应对当前情况并使其变得更好。
And I learned with the way that it's really more fun and actually bring better results this way.
我通过这种方式了解到，这样做确实更有趣，而且实际上可以带来更好的结果。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm 1,000% aligned with that.
Lenny Rachitsky：我 1000% 同意这一点。
Final question.
最后一个问题。
I know you were in the army at one point in your life.
我知道您一生中曾参军过。
Is there anything that you learned from that experience that helps you build better products?
您从这次经历中学到了什么可以帮助您打造更好的产品吗？
Daniel Lereya: The funny thing is that I think that like many things that I did in the Army, I was actually commanding of a very big group of people in the Army.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：有趣的是，我认为就像我在陆军中所做的许多事情一样，我实际上指挥着陆军中的一大群人。
And I think it's not about building products, but more about building teams and building this sense of purpose, sense of shared belonging.
我认为这不是关于构建产品，而是更多关于构建团队并建立这种使命感和共同归属感。
And I think that in that way many things are quite similar to, it might be counterintuitive, but many things are quite similar.
我认为通过这种方式，很多事情都非常相似，这可能是违反直觉的，但是很多事情都非常相似。
And from that, many of the things of being together, although it's a hierarchical environment is something that I take with me and a lot of practical ways to lead a big organization, I would say.
由此看来，尽管这是一个等级森严的环境，但在一起的很多事情都是我随身携带的，我想说的是，我有很多领导一个大组织的实用方法。
Lenny Rachitsky: Daniel, this was awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：丹尼尔，这太棒了。
You're awesome.
你太棒了。
So much stuff that we went through.
我们经历了这么多事情。
So many golden nuggets.
这么多金块。
I think that we're going to help a lot of people with building products, building teams, scaling, surviving, all these scaling challenges that keep coming up in these conversations.
我认为我们将帮助很多人构建产品、组建团队、扩展、生存，以及这些对话中不断出现的所有这些扩展挑战。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, maybe talk about being more transparent, and then how can listeners be useful to you?
如果人们想联系您，可以在网上哪里找到您，也许可以谈论如何变得更加透明，那么听众如何对您有用呢？
Daniel Lereya: Online, I think that two main ways is by LinkedIn, I would say.
Daniel Lereya：在网上，我认为有两种主要方式是通过 LinkedIn。
And second is podcasts.
其次是播客。
I am guessing in a lot of podcasts and I think that this is a cool way to share things, full stories and full practical examples.
我在很多播客中猜测，我认为这是分享事物、完整故事和完整实际示例的一种很酷的方式。
And in terms of listeners being useful to me, so first of all, in many ways they already are useful to me.
就听众对我有用而言，首先，在很多方面，他们已经对我有用了。
I really love your podcast and I'm getting a lot of insights from others and this is something I really love.
我真的很喜欢你的播客，我从其他人那里得到了很多见解，这是我真正喜欢的。
Many of people that probably listening were also contributing to that.
许多可能在听的人也对此做出了贡献。
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
And I really hope with that, that this episode would also be meaningful to people and that they will take value out of it.
我真的希望这一集对人们也有意义，并且他们会从中获得价值。
And if they are, it would be amazing to hear about it.
如果是的话，那么听到这个消息真是太棒了。
I remember someone that sent me a picture of his new dashboard in the office and what did he do with that.
我记得有人给我发了一张他在办公室的新仪表板的照片，以及他用这张照片做了什么。
And add additional ideas of what you can do that we actually took also here on Monday.
并添加我们周一在这里实际采取的有关您可以做什么的其他想法。
If you do something, even if it's small, let me know.
如果你做了什么，即使是很小的事，也请告诉我。
It's super fun to hear and also interesting.
听起来超级有趣，也很有趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: All right.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
There's the call to action.
这是号召性用语。
If you implement some of Daniel's advice, especially put up new dashboards or monitors in your office, please send photos.
如果您采纳了丹尼尔的一些建议，特别是在办公室安装了新的仪表板或监视器，请发送照片。
Go for LinkedIn, it sounds like, is the best medium.
听起来 LinkedIn 是最好的媒介。
Daniel, thank you so much for being here.
丹尼尔，非常感谢你来到这里。
Daniel Lereya: Thank you very much, Lenny.
丹尼尔·莱雷亚：非常感谢你，莱尼。
It was a pleasure.
这是一种乐趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.
您可以在 lennyspodcast 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
com.
com.
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。