Bending the universe in your favor | Claire Vo (LaunchDarkly, Color, Optimizely, ChatPRD)

Claire Vo: People often think that I get hired into later stage companies because I'm supposed to teach them how to operate like a big company, and in fact, I say I'm hired to remind them they can operate like a startup.

Claire Vo：人们经常认为我受聘进入后期公司是因为我应该教他们如何像大公司一样运营，事实上，我说我受聘是为了提醒他们他们可以像初创公司一样运营。

Lenny: Everybody wants this.

莱尼：每个人都想要这个。

Everyone's like, "Yes, move fast, amazing quality." What's an example of that for you?

每个人都会说，“是的，动作快，质量惊人。”您可以举个什么例子吗？

Claire Vo: I communicate to my leaders that my expectation is they bring in the clock speed one click faster.

Claire Vo：我向我的领导传达，我的期望是他们将时钟速度提高一键。

If you think something needs to be done this year, it needs to be done this half.

如果你认为今年需要做某事，那么今年就需要做。

Lenny: There may be a trend happening here of combining engineering product.

Lenny：这里可能正在出现一种将工程产品结合起来的趋势。

Claire Vo: I'm using CPTO for short code of running product and engineering design functionally together.

Claire Vo：我使用 CPTO 来编写同时运行产品和工程设计功能的简短代码。

There should be no debates over what's best for product or what's best for engineering, what's best for design speed.

不应该争论什么对产品最好，什么对工程最好，什么对设计速度最好。

What is best for the organization?

什么对组织最有利？

Lenny: You built a tool called ChatPRD.

Lenny：您开发了一个名为 ChatPRD 的工具。

My guess is it's the single most popular AI PM-specific tool out there.

我的猜测是，它是目前最流行的 AI PM 专用工具。

Claire Vo: Is it going to eliminate PMs next year?

Claire Vo：明年会取消PM吗？

Probably not.

可能不会。

Are the skills required going to shift?

所需的技能是否会发生变化？

Yes.

是的。

Could they shift much faster than we all anticipate?

它们的转变速度会比我们预期的快得多吗？

Probably.

大概。

Lenny: Today, my guest is Claire Vo.

莱尼：今天，我的客人是克莱尔·沃。

Claire is a longtime chief product officer at Color, Optimizely, and currently chief product officer at LaunchDarkly.

Claire 长期担任 Color、Optimizely 的首席产品官，目前担任 LaunchDarkly 的首席产品官。

She's also been a two-time founder, engineer, designer, and a marketer.

她还曾两次担任创始人、工程师、设计师和营销人员。

She's also the creator of ChatPRD, which I suspect is the most used PM-specific AI product out there, which she builds on nights and weekends.

她也是 ChatPRD 的创建者，我怀疑这是目前最常用的 PM 专用人工智能产品，她在晚上和周末构建了该产品。

Lenny: In our conversation, we dig into what PM skills AI will complement and potentially replace in the future, the story behind ChatPRD, and Claire's advice for how to stay ahead of the curve on AI within the PM role, the importance of feeling agency over your career, and how to bend the arc of the universe to achieve the things that you want to achieve, insights into what it takes to be a successful woman in tech, especially as an exec, how she creates a fast pace within larger companies while also keeping the bar very high, the rise of the CPTO role, combining product and engineering under one leader plus a ton of career advice both for early career people and senior leaders, and so much more.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了人工智能在未来将补充和潜在取代哪些 PM 技能、ChatPRD 背后的故事，以及 Claire 关于如何在 PM 角色中保持人工智能领先地位的建议、在职业生涯中感受到代理的重要性，以及如何弯曲宇宙的弧线来实现你想要实现的目标，深入了解如何成为一名成功的科技女性，特别是作为一名高管，她如何在大公司中创造快速节奏，同时保持很高的标准，上升CPTO 角色，将产品和工程结合在一名领导者的领导下，并为早期职业人士和高级领导者提供大量职业建议等等。

Lenny: This episode has something for anyone that's in product or interested in the role of product, and I'm very excited to bring it to you.

莱尼：这一集适合所有从事产品或对产品的作用感兴趣的人，我很高兴能把它带给你们。

If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

With that, I bring you Claire Vo after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了克莱尔·沃 (Claire Vo)。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Orb.

莱尼：这一集是由 Orb 为您带来的。

As a business, you care about revenue, but as a product team, the last thing you want to do is delay a product launch or a pricing change because your team has to rebuild billing from scratch.

作为企业，您关心收入，但作为产品团队，您最不想做的就是推迟产品发布或定价更改，因为您的团队必须从头开始重建计费。

Orb is a flexible usage-based billing engine that lets you evolve your pricing with ease.

Orb 是一种灵活的基于使用情况的计费引擎，可让您轻松调整定价。

The fastest growing product teams at companies like Vercel and Replit trust Orb to power their pricing changes and launches.

Vercel 和 Replit 等公司发展最快的产品团队信任 Orb 来推动他们的定价变化和发布。

Use Orb to ship product faster, stop worrying about billing, and evolve pricing with ease and control.

使用 Orb 更快地交付产品，不再担心计费，并轻松控制地制定定价。

Check it out at withorb.com/lenny and skip the line for a demo or sandbox by using promo code Lenny.

请访问 withorb.com/lenny 进行查看，并使用促销代码 Lenny 免排队观看演示或沙盒。

That's withorb.com/lenny.

这是 withorb.com/lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Dovetail, the customer insights hub for product teams.

Lenny：本集由 Dovetail（产品团队的客户洞察中心）为您带来。

Are you working in a feature factory building filler that nobody wants?

您是否在无人想要的特色工厂建筑填充物中工作？

Probably, because the sad truth is that most SaaS features are rarely or never used, costing the industry billions every year.

可能是这样，因为可悲的事实是，大多数 SaaS 功能很少或从未使用过，每年给行业造成数十亿美元的损失。

Let's change that.

让我们改变这一点。

Product managers, Dovetail is holding their first industry conference, it's called Insight Out, and they want you to come.

产品经理，Dovetail 正在举办他们的第一次行业会议，名为 Insight Out，他们希望您参加。

Lenny: Over one day in San Francisco, the product community is coming together to learn how to better leverage customer insights and build products that people actually love to use.

Lenny：在旧金山的一天，产品社区齐聚一堂，学习如何更好地利用客户洞察并构建人们真正喜欢使用的产品。

It's on April 11, and you can hear from product leaders from Uber, Twitch, Meta, and Netflix as they share their strategies for driving innovation, thriving in uncertainty, and balancing customer-centered work with business needs.

4 月 11 日，您可以听到 Uber、Twitch、Meta 和 Netflix 的产品负责人分享他们推动创新、在不确定性中蓬勃发展以及平衡以客户为中心的工作与业务需求的策略。

And here's the kicker, it's absolutely free for online tickets.

更重要的是，在线门票完全免费。

Just go to dovetail.com/lenny to register.

只需前往 dovetail.com/lenny 进行注册即可。

This is thanks to Dovetail, the best way for product teams to get the most out of customer insights.

这要归功于 Dovetail，它是产品团队充分利用客户洞察的最佳方式。

Check it out at dovetail.com/lenny.

请访问 dovetail.com/lenny 进行查看。

Lenny: Claire, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.

莱尼：克莱尔，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Claire Vo: Oh, thank you for having me.

克莱尔·沃：哦，谢谢你邀请我。

I'm excited to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: I'm even more excited.

莱尼：我更兴奋了。

You're someone that, to me, has always felt inevitable would be on this podcast and that we'd be doing an episode together.

对我来说，你总是觉得不可避免地会出现在这个播客中，并且我们会一起制作一集。

Do you feel the same way, or not?

你是否也有同样的感觉？

And it's okay if you don't.

如果你不这样做也没关系。

Claire Vo: It's a privilege and a pleasure, and I'm glad I'm here.

Claire Vo：这是我的荣幸和荣幸，我很高兴来到这里。

I've been so impressed with your guests and your content.

你们的客人和你们的内容给我留下了深刻的印象。

It's been so exciting to see just the wide range of product leaders and thinkers in this space.

看到这个领域的众多产品领导者和思想家真是令人兴奋。

And if I can be on a list of product leaders and thinkers in this space, then I'm doing something good.

如果我能跻身该领域的产品领导者和思想家名单，那么我就是在做一些好事。

Thanks for having me.

谢谢你有我。

It's absolutely my pleasure.: I want to start by talking about career advice.

这绝对是我的荣幸。：我想首先谈谈职业建议。

I was perusing your LinkedIn, and your career path is basically what most PMs probably dream of in their career.

我仔细阅读了您的 LinkedIn，您的职业道路基本上是大多数产品经理在职业生涯中所梦想的。

Just to summarize, you went from associate product manager to product manager to senior product manager to director to senior director to VP to SVP to chief product officer, and now you've been chief product officer of three different companies.

总而言之，你从副产品经理到产品经理到高级产品经理到总监到高级总监到副总裁到高级副总裁到首席产品官，现在你已经成为三个不同公司的首席产品官。

And along the way, you're a founder, you're a designer, you're an engineer.

一路走来，你是创始人、设计师、工程师。

It's absolutely my pleasure.: Here's my question.

这绝对是我的荣幸。：这是我的问题。

If you had to boil down what you think your secret sauce has been to progressing so far and so quickly throughout your PM career, what might that be?

如果您必须总结一下您认为在整个 PM 职业生涯中迄今为止取得如此迅速进步的秘诀是什么，那可能是什么？

Claire Vo: Yeah, so when you list it all out, you can probably guess underneath it all is a relentlessly curious, impatient, eager to build person at their core.

Claire Vo：是的，所以当你把这一切都列出来时，你可能会猜到这一切的背后是一种不懈的好奇、不耐烦、渴望将人塑造为核心。

I just like building stuff and I find a lot of fun, and I think if you find a career or a craft that's fun, it's easy to accelerate your growth in that career.

我只是喜欢建造东西，并且发现了很多乐趣，而且我认为如果你找到了有趣的职业或手艺，那么很容易加速你在该职业中的成长。

One thing, I just love what I do.

一件事，我只是喜欢我所做的事情。

Claire Vo: But when it comes to career growth and that progression from, I actually started as a copywriter of all things, copywriter all the way up to a CPO or CPTO that runs an engineering organization, it boils down to something really simple, which is know what you want out of your career, be clear and ask for it, and then make it easy for your boss or whoever can support or champion you to get you from here to there.

Claire Vo：但是说到职业发展和发展，我实际上是从一名文案撰稿人开始的，一直到运营一个工程组织的 CPO 或 CPTO，归根结底都是一些非常简单的事情，那就是知道你想从你的职业生涯中得到什么，明确并要求它，然后让你的老板或任何可以支持或支持你的人轻松地让你从这里到那里。

Claire Vo: And so I'll take a really specific example from earlier in my career, where I had been in management for design and product management, so a senior manager level over product and design at an e-commerce company, and worked very closely with growth and marketing.

Claire Vo：我将举一个我职业生涯早期的具体例子，我曾在一家电子商务公司担任设计和产品管理部门的高级经理，负责产品和设计，并与增长和营销部门密切合作。

We were just two sides of the same coin and worked very closely.

我们只是同一枚硬币的两面，而且合作非常密切。

And the head of marketing left and there was this big to-do pretty quickly of, "Well, what are we going to do with marketing?

营销主管离开了，很快就有了一件大事要做，“好吧，我们要在营销方面做什么？

And do we need to hire somebody?"

我们需要雇人吗？”

Claire Vo: And I sat for about a half a day and I thought, I think I can help here, drew out an org chart, put my name on the top, walked into my boss's office and said, "This is one potential solve of your marketing organization question, is we'll bring product and marketing growth together.

克莱尔·沃：我坐了大约半天，我想，我想我可以在这里提供帮助，我画了一张组织结构图，把我的名字写在上面，走进老板的办公室说：“这是营销组织问题的一个潜在解决方案，我们将把产品和营销增长结合在一起。

I can be in this position.

我可以处于这个位置。

Here's how I'd change the management structure underneath this.

以下是我将如何改变其管理结构的方法。

Not just where do you put me, but where do you put everybody else?

不仅你把我放在哪里，而且你把其他人放在哪里？

And I think this could work for the company, and this is how I'd suggest we roll it out and this would be my JD." And I got that job.

我认为这可能对公司有用，这就是我建议我们推出它的方式，这将是我的法学博士。”我得到了那份工作。

I think when people ask me about career advice, they want to hear, "What can I do?" Really, what do you want?

我认为当人们向我询问职业建议时，他们想听的是“我能做什么？”真的，你想要什么？

And how do you make it as easy as possible to make the case to your boss to get you here to there?

如何才能尽可能轻松地向老板提出让你到达那里的理由？

Claire Vo: The other thing that I give people advice about is know what you want out of your current role and know exactly what you want your next role to be.

Claire Vo：我给人们的建议的另一件事是知道你想从当前的角色中得到什么，并确切地知道你想要的下一个角色是什么。

And I even know this, and I even say this to my boss.

我什至知道这一点，我什至对我的老板也这么说。

When I was VP of product at Optimizely, I said to my boss, "I want to be a chief product officer.

当我在 Optimizely 担任产品副总裁时，我对老板说：“我想成为一名首席产品官。

Here's how I'm going to get us here to there, and I want you to partner with me on it." And even coming into this role when I was interviewing at LaunchDarkly, my boss, Dan, the CEO of LaunchDarkly asked me, "What do you want out of this role?" And I said, "I want my next role to be a CEO role, so I want this role to fill in my gaps, learn, help me elevate my experience to get me to that next step."

这就是我将如何让我们从这里到那里，我希望你能与我合作。”甚至当我在 LaunchDarkly 面试时担任这个角色时，我的老板、LaunchDarkly 的首席执行官 Dan 也问我：“你想从这个角色中得到什么？”我说，“我希望我的下一个角色是首席执行官，所以我希望这个角色能够填补我的空白，学习，帮助我提升我的经验，让我迈出下一步。”

Claire Vo: And so I always know what that next role is going to be and I'm always clear about it.

Claire Vo：所以我总是知道下一个角色会是什么，而且我总是很清楚。

Now, I think there's a fine balance here.

现在，我认为这里有一个很好的平衡。

There's one thing to be very clear about your goals.

有一点需要非常清楚你的目标。

It's another to suck the oxygen out of the air about only talking about getting promoted.

只谈论升职而吸走空气中的氧气是另一回事。

These are probably 0.005% of my interactions with my boss are about my career growth and my path.

在我与老板的互动中，大概有 0.005% 是关于我的职业发展和我的道路的。

It's very small.

它非常小。

"Am I clear?

“我说清楚了吗？

Are we on the same page?

我们意见一致吗？

And am I communicating as I'm making progress against those goals?"

当我在实现这些目标方面取得进展时，我是否进行了沟通？”

Claire Vo: High-slip people I think get promoted basically as fast as the org can support.

Claire Vo：我认为高滑率的人基本上会按照组织能够支持的速度获得晋升。

I've almost never wished I promoted somebody earlier.

我几乎从来不希望自己能够更早地提拔某人。

I've seen managers or folks promote a little too early, and so as somebody that's managing their own career, you have to be a balance of ambitious and assertive and take care of yourself and advocate for yourself, and the work needs to speak for itself at the end of the day, and that's what's going to drive for your career growth.

我见过经理或员工晋升得太早了，所以作为管理自己职业生涯的人，你必须在雄心勃勃和自信之间取得平衡，照顾好自己并为自己辩护，工作需要在一天结束时不言自明，这才是推动你职业发展的动力。

And so know what you want but do the work and produce the results, and you can have a career like mine.

因此，知道自己想要什么，但付出努力并取得成果，你就可以拥有像我这样的职业。

Lenny: Maybe first to summarize, some of the core advice you're sharing is know what you actually want because you're not going to progress towards this amazing future career if you don't actually know where you're going.

莱尼：也许首先要总结一下，你分享的一些核心建议是知道你真正想要什么，因为如果你实际上不知道自己要去哪里，你就不会朝着这个令人惊叹的未来职业发展。

Otherwise, you'll be pushed in directions that you're not necessarily interested in going.

否则，你会被推向你不一定感兴趣的方向。

Lenny: I have a sense of where you want to go to tell people and ask for it.

莱尼：我知道你想去哪里告诉人们并要求它。

"Here's what I want to be doing in the future.

“这就是我未来想做的事情。

Help me get there." And I love the other point you made of just, don't over-focus on that.

帮我到达那里。”我喜欢你提出的另一点，不要过度关注这一点。

There's many people that spend a lot of their energy on, "I need to get promoted.

有很多人花费大量精力在“我需要升职”上。

How do I get to the next level?

我如何才能进入下一个级别？

I deserve the next level." And I guess maybe along those lines, is there any other advice you could share of just how to avoid being that person that's just constantly obsessed with promotion?

我值得更上一层楼。”我想也许沿着这些思路，你还有什么其他建议可以分享，如何避免成为那个一直沉迷于晋升的人吗？

Any more advice of just how to find that balance?

关于如何找到这种平衡还有更多建议吗？

Claire Vo: Yeah.

克莱尔·沃：是的。

One, you've got to lock to the norms, the talent norms of your organization.

第一，你必须遵守组织的规范，即人才规范。

You should know how those things work, and they can work very casually if you're a very small startup and they can work more formally if you're at a very large company.

你应该知道这些东西是如何工作的，如果你是一家非常小的初创公司，它们可以非常随意地工作；如果你在一家非常大的公司，它们可以更正式地工作。

And one, understanding how promotions operationally happen inside an organization can help you have those conversations at the right time in the right moment with the right context.

第一，了解组织内部促销活动的运作方式可以帮助您在正确的时间、正确的时间、正确的背景下进行这些对话。

That's one thing I advise.

这是我建议的一件事。

We're a slightly larger organization.

我们是一个规模稍大的组织。

We do promotion cycles.

我们进行促销周期。

We have times during which we promote people.

我们有时会提拔员工。

And so if you're talking to me four months before a promo cycle, maybe it's top of mind, maybe it's not.

因此，如果您在促销周期前四个月与我交谈，也许这是首要考虑的事情，也许不是。

I sometimes functionally cannot promote people inside larger organizations whenever I want.

有时，我在职能上无法随时提拔大型组织内的人员。

Claire Vo: One is, I think, understanding the talent calendar of your team, especially at a larger organization.

Claire Vo：我认为，其中之一是了解团队的人才日历，尤其是在较大的组织中。

I think the second thing is really the conversation needs to be about what you being in a different position does for the company and why the company needs it.

我认为第二件事实际上是对话需要讨论你处于不同的职位对公司有何作用以及公司为什么需要它。

Often the conversation is, "I want to be promoted because I want to be a director of PM, because I want to become a manager, because I need direct reports." Instead of saying, "Look, your span of control, you have nine direct reports, you need leverage here.

通常的对话是，“我想升职，因为我想成为 PM 总监，因为我想成为经理，因为我需要直接报告。”不要说：“看，你的控制范围，你有九个直接报告，你需要在这里发挥影响力。

I have a lot of credibility with this side of the product organization.

我对产品组织的这一方面有很高的信任度。

I think we could be doing more if this position existed.

我认为如果这个职位存在的话我们可以做得更多。

And I think I'm good for this position because of what I've proven A, B and C."

我认为我适合这个职位，因为我已经证明了 A、B 和 C。”

Claire Vo: That's solving a problem for the company.

Claire Vo：这就是为公司解决问题。

That's not solving a career growth issue for an individual.

这并不能解决个人的职业发展问题。

And I think people who want to be promoted need to think in that orientation versus the other, because honestly, especially now, let's say .

我认为想要晋升的人需要从这个方向思考而不是另一个方向，因为老实说，特别是现在，可以说……

There are not just these wrote every 12 months we're going to give comp increases and merit increases and you get to be promoted.

不仅仅是每 12 个月写的这些，我们还会提高薪酬和绩效，然后你就会得到晋升。

We really have to be thoughtful about the structure and size and organization of teams.

我们确实必须考虑团队的结构、规模和组织。

Product teams are naturally pretty small.

产品团队自然很小。

Claire Vo: So, there aren't just management and director and senior director roles to go around.

Claire Vo：所以，不仅仅有管理、总监和高级总监的角色。

And if you want to get into a management, for example, you have to prove that you're good at organization design.

例如，如果你想进入管理层，你必须证明你擅长组织设计。

I think really focus on why a role is good for a company or necessary for a company and then why you are the best for that role, rather than, "I want to get promoted."

我认为真正关注的是为什么某个职位对公司有利或对公司来说是必要的，然后为什么你最适合这个职位，而不是“我想升职”。

Lenny: That is such good advice and such important advice that focus on how do you solve problems for your manager and the business, not, "Hey, here's what I need for my career.

莱尼：这是非常好的建议，也是非常重要的建议，重点是如何为经理和企业解决问题，而不是“嘿，这就是我职业生涯所需要的。

This sucks.

这太糟糕了。

My career is stagnating." I love that.

我的职业生涯停滞不前。”我喜欢那个。

And I love so much of your message is empowerment.

我非常喜欢你传达的信息：赋权。

It's not just, here, there's the place you're in and there's not a lot you can do about it.

不仅仅是，在这里，在你所处的地方，你对此无能为力。

Look for opportunities to help your manager, help your business.

寻找机会帮助你的经理，帮助你的企业。

"Here's what I can do to move things further."

“我可以采取以下措施来推动事情进一步发展。”

Lenny: And I think there's an element of timing that you touched on.

莱尼：我认为您提到了时间因素。

Propose this at a time when something could happen.

在可能发生事情的时候提出这个建议。

You shared this example of there was a marketing gap.

您分享了这个存在营销差距的例子。

Lenny: Is there another example where you did this sort of thing where you presented, "Here's how I can help the org," and that helped another promotion?

莱尼：还有另一个例子，你做了这样的事情，你提出“我可以如何帮助该组织”，这有助于另一次晋升？

If not, that's good.

如果没有，那很好。

Claire Vo: It's honestly how I expanded into leading engineering teams in the technology organization.

Claire Vo：老实说，这就是我如何扩展到技术组织中领先的工程团队的。

I was at Color and there was a real need to up-level our engineering organization, and I knew exactly what to do.

我在 Color 工作，确实需要提升我们的工程组织水平，而且我确切地知道该怎么做。

I had high confidence I had the skills, both technical and organizational, to scale the engineering organization in a way that was really critical to the business, both from a architecture perspective and from a team and talent perspective.

我非常有信心自己拥有技术和组织方面的技能，能够以对业务真正至关重要的方式扩展工程组织，无论是从架构角度还是从团队和人才角度来看。

And so that was one where I knew there was a problem to solve.

所以这就是我知道有一个问题需要解决的地方。

I knew that problem was important.

我知道这个问题很重要。

I knew we had to solve it fast, and I was confident I knew I could do it.

我知道我们必须快速解决这个问题，而且我相信我可以做到。

I had confidence that I could help there.

我有信心我可以在那里提供帮助。

Claire Vo: And so I'm still doing it today.

Claire Vo：所以我今天仍然这样做。

And at Color, I came in as product.

在 Color，我是作为产品加入的。

I very quickly began leading the engineering organization, which was fabulous, and then I actually took on some of our non-clinical operations as well where we had a pretty operational leader.

我很快就开始领导工程组织，这非常棒，然后我实际上还承担了一些非临床业务，我们有一位相当出色的运营领导者。

We had some high-scale challenges to deal with, and it fit my talent set and I knew I could help the company pretty quickly.

我们需要应对一些大规模的挑战，这符合我的才能，而且我知道我可以很快帮助公司。

Claire Vo: And this is the other advice I might give particular to PMs.

Claire Vo：这是我可能特别向产品经理提出的另一条建议。

PM is such a generalist role, it's okay to go a little left and a little right to go up.

PM就是这么一个多面手的角色，往左走一点，往右走一点就可以了。

I took this marketing growth role.

我担任了营销增长的角色。

That was actually my first director role.

这实际上是我的第一个导演角色。

It wasn't only for product, it was for marketing.

这不仅是为了产品，也是为了营销。

And I had to learn marketing and I had to develop skills there, but it was a foundation on which I could build a broader leadership career.

我必须学习营销，必须在那里发展技能，但这是我可以建立更广泛的领导职业生涯的基础。

And so I do think also looking left and right outside of your scope of product can be a really effective way to find growth opportunities.

因此，我确实认为，在产品范围之外左右寻找可能是寻找增长机会的真正有效方法。

Lenny: I love that advice, and it leads to so many unexpected opportunities.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议，它带来了很多意想不到的机会。

One of the, I think, big questions with PMs, and coming back to your original advice of know where you want to go, there's so many directions a PM can go.

我认为，PM 面临的一个大问题是，回到你最初的建议，知道你想去哪里，PM 可以走很多方向。

You can eventually become a founder, become a GM, become a CO, something else.

你最终可以成为创始人、总经理、首席运营官或其他职位。

And trying these sorts of things often helps you understand, "Here's what I'm actually excited about.

尝试这些事情通常可以帮助你理解，“这就是我真正兴奋的事情。

Maybe I want to move into design."

也许我想进入设计领域。”

Claire Vo: Yeah, and one of the other things that I think people don't understand, and maybe I experienced this as a founder and I really feel it inside companies, is the universe is bendable to your will.

克莱尔·沃：是的，我认为人们不理解的另一件事是，也许我作为创始人经历过这一点，并且我在公司内部确实感受到了这一点，那就是宇宙是可以屈服于你的意志的。

And what I mean is in most, at least in the stage I operate in in startups and growth stage companies and late stage startups, organizations are very fluid and I like to organize around talented motivated individuals.

我的意思是，在大多数情况下，至少在我所处的初创公司、成长期公司和后期初创公司运营的阶段，组织非常流动，我喜欢围绕有才华、积极进取的个人进行组织。

Claire Vo: And so just because we're organized in a particular way now, just because these organizations are separate or these are different, together, doesn't mean that's necessarily the way they have to be, and so you should think about your career growth in the existing structure of the organization.

Claire Vo：所以仅仅因为我们现在以特定的方式组织，仅仅因为这些组织是独立的或者这些组织在一起是不同的，并不意味着它们一定是这样的，所以你应该在组织的现有结构中考虑你的职业发展。

But as an org design thinker, it's a very important job that I have to do.

但作为一名组织设计思想家，这是我必须做的一项非常重要的工作。

You also have to think of this system as a living, breathing entity that can shift over time in particular around highly motivated, highly talented people.

你还必须将这个系统视为一个活生生的、会呼吸的实体，它可以随着时间的推移而发生变化，特别是在积极性高、才华横溢的人周围。

Lenny: And I think along the same lines, referencing this advice you've already shared of just thinking from the perspective of what is my manager and folks above, what are they struggling with and how can I propose, "Here's a solution that happens to also have me move into a more interesting role?"

莱尼：我认为沿着同样的思路，参考你已经分享的这个建议，只是从我的经理和上面的人的角度思考，他们正在面临什么困难，我该如何提出，“这是一个解决方案，碰巧也让我进入一个更有趣的角色？”

Lenny: There's a direction I wasn't planning to go into, but I think it's really important and interesting is people like you that are incredibly good and successful end up taking on a lot, and that often ends up not being what they want.

莱尼：有一个方向我本来没有打算进入，但我认为非常重要和有趣的是像你这样非常优秀和成功的人最终承担了很多，而这往往不是他们想要的。

Lenny: Exactly.

莱尼：没错。

Any advice on the classic, be careful what you're good at advice?

对经典有什么建议吗，注意你擅长的建议吗？

Any advice on just how to not end up with everything?

关于如何避免一切都结束有什么建议吗？

Claire Vo: I really believe operating in your zone of genius.

Claire Vo：我真的相信在你的天才区域里工作。

I really believe in leaning into strengths.

我真的相信要发挥优势。

And if you are in a position in which you're good at things and you've been giving a lot of responsibility, but you have tremendous growth edges and you're spending more time on the things you need to level up than the things you are exceptional at, I think that's not fair for the organization.

如果你的职位很擅长做事，并且承担了很多责任，但你有巨大的成长优势，你花在需要提升的事情上的时间比你擅长的事情上的时间多，我认为这对组织来说是不公平的。

I think that's not fair for you.

我认为这对你不公平。

Claire Vo: I truly believe defining and understanding your zone of genius, where you are exceptional, where no one else can step into the job and do just as good of a job as you can, and where you derive tremendous intellectual emotional joy out of the work is what makes it sustainable over time.

克莱尔·沃：我坚信定义和理解你的天才区，你是杰出的，没有其他人可以进入工作并像你一样出色地完成工作，并且你从工作中获得巨大的智力情感快乐，这使得它能够随着时间的推移而可持续。

And so I don't actually think it's about the volume or breadth of the work.

所以我实际上并不认为这与工作的数量或广度有关。

It's about sustainability of the work.

这是关于工作的可持续性。

And can you show up every day energized and engaged and excited about what you do?

你能每天都对自己所做的事情充满活力、投入和兴奋吗？

Claire Vo: And I think being very aware if you are operating the space or if you're not.

Claire Vo：我认为要非常清楚您是否正在运营该空间。

And this might go back to, I think, I have never regretted promoting somebody too slowly, I have regretted promoting somebody too quickly.

我想，这可能可以追溯到，我从来没有后悔提拔某人太慢，我后悔提拔某人太快。

High-slope individuals in particular areas want to get more responsibility, want to have more scope, and I've seen less experienced managers or directors or even people at my level want to give opportunities that put people in a position where they're neither effective nor happy.

特定领域的高坡度个人想要获得更多责任，想要拥有更大的范围，我见过经验不足的经理或董事，甚至像我这样级别的人想要提供机会，让人们处于既不高效也不快乐的境地。

And so I think being self-aware of that is really important, and then I also think as a manager, being cognizant of that is really important.

所以我认为自我意识非常重要，而且我也认为作为一名经理，认识到这一点非常重要。

Claire Vo: Individually, I do do a lot, but I do feel like I'm in my zone of genius and I also know that part of staying in my personal zone of genius is having this breadth of responsibility but preserving builder time.

Claire Vo：就个人而言，我确实做了很多事情，但我确实觉得自己处于我的天才区域，而且我也知道保持在我个人天才区域的一部分是承担如此广泛的责任，但保留建设者的时间。

And what I mean from time is I have to have time to produce real work that comes from me as an individual, and that means that calendar management is quite important.

我的意思是，我必须有时间来完成我个人的实际工作，这意味着日历管理非常重要。

Time management.

时间管理。

Lenny: We're going to talk about some of the things that you built.

莱尼：我们要谈谈你建造的一些东西。

Lenny: In terms of finding your zone of genius, any advice for someone that's trying to figure out what it is that is in that zone of genius?

莱尼：在寻找你的天才区方面，对于那些试图弄清楚天才区是什么的人有什么建议吗？

I know there's a Ted Talk of here's how to think about the zone of genius specifically .

我知道有一个 Ted 演讲专门讨论了如何思考天才区域。

Claire Vo: Yeah.

克莱尔·沃：是的。

I'm not going to relay it in precision, but one of the tactics that I've seen out there is basically go through your calendar for the last month or quarter, whatever it is, write everything down, and basically group them into, I hated doing this, I didn't love doing it but it was fine, I love doing this, and then I love doing this, and if I could spend all my time on this, I would be the happiest person in the whole world.

我不会精确地转达它，但我看到的策略之一基本上是浏览上个月或上个季度的日历，无论是什么，写下所有内容，然后将它们基本上分组为，我讨厌这样做，我不喜欢这样做，但没关系，我喜欢这样做，然后我喜欢这样做，如果我能把所有的时间都花在这上面，我将是世界上最幸福的人。

And literally categorize the way you're spending your time into those buckets, and then put the bottom buckets away.

从字面上将你花费时间的方式分类到这些桶中，然后把最底层的桶收起来。

Just focus on that top bucket and go, "How can I be here more?" And often, that is a true guide to where your passion is, where your special expertise is, and where you're going to add a lot of value because you're highly engaged.

只需专注于最上面的桶并思考“我怎样才能在这里更多？”通常，这是一个真正的指南，告诉你你的热情在哪里，你的特殊专长在哪里，以及你将在哪里增加很多价值，因为你高度投入。

Claire Vo: I think the other thing is really asking yourself, and this maybe goes back to the career advice perspective, really asking yourself, "What do I do that no one else in this organization can do?" There are lots of things that I do that other people in the organization can do, but what are the things that I do that are...

Claire Vo：我认为另一件事是真正问自己，这也许可以回到职业建议的角度，真正问自己，“我能做什么，这个组织中没有其他人可以做？”我做的很多事情组织中的其他人也可以做，但是我做的事情有哪些......

You think about a differentiated product that are hard to replicate, and knowing what that is and leaning into that can drive a lot of exceptional career growth but also just make you quite happy.

您会想到一种难以复制的差异化产品，了解它是什么并投入其中可以推动许多非凡的职业发展，同时也让您感到非常高兴。

Lenny: What's an example of that for you?

莱尼：对你来说，这方面的例子是什么？

Claire Vo: I think I'm actually quite good at traversing across and up and down.

Claire Vo：我认为我实际上很擅长穿越、上下穿越。

What I mean is I am fluent across product engineering, design, data and operations, and candidly revenue in a way that vertical or functional leaders maybe are less so.

我的意思是，我对产品工程、设计、数据和运营以及坦率的收入都很熟悉，而垂直或职能领导者可能不那么擅长。

I feel like I have a high level of fluency broadly and can bring conversations between functions together against a business objective pretty easily.

我觉得我在很大程度上具有很高的流畅性，并且可以很容易地将职能之间的对话结合起来以实现业务目标。

It's just the way I'm wired.

这就是我的接线方式。

I was a founder.

我是一名创始人。

It's second nature.

这是第二天性。

Claire Vo: And the other thing that I think I can do pretty well that I find very joyous is traverse elevation.

Claire Vo：另一件我认为我可以做得很好并且让我感到非常高兴的事情是横向高度。

And so, yes, I love to be up here and think about strategy and vision, but I also like to drop into the details to move things forward.

所以，是的，我喜欢在这里思考战略和愿景，但我也喜欢深入细节以推动事情向前发展。

And I think that operating horizontally and then being able to spend some time in the vertical up and down, wherever that vertical up and down happens makes me quite happy.

我认为，水平操作，然后能够花一些时间在垂直向上和向下，无论垂直向上和向下发生的地方，都让我非常高兴。

I think I'm pretty good at it.

我认为我很擅长。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

We're going to touch on some of these things you just mentioned actually, but real quick, you mentioned this idea of essentially an energy audit.

我们将讨论您刚才提到的一些事情，但很快，您提到了能源审计的想法。

There's actually a really good guide that I'll point to in the show notes by Matt Mochary that walks you through how to do this.

实际上，我将在 Matt Mochary 的演出笔记中指出一个非常好的指南，它会引导您完成此操作。

And we talk about this a bunch on this podcast actually, this whole idea of just find things that give you energy, do more of that.

事实上，我们在这个播客上讨论了很多这个问题，就是找到能给你能量的东西，做更多的事情。

Find things that zap you of energy, do less of that.

寻找那些消耗你能量的事情，少做一些。

Easier said than done when you have a job and you have to do stuff that people are paying you to do, but it's still really helpful if nothing else to help you point you where you want to be going in your career long-term.

当你有一份工作，而且你必须做人们付钱给你做的事情时，说起来容易做起来难，但如果没有其他办法可以帮助你指明你想要在职业生涯中长期发展的方向，它仍然非常有帮助。

Lenny: Okay, so you mentioned you're a founder, and it feels like you're a founder at heart, but you've been working at larger companies for a while now.

莱尼：好吧，你提到你是一名创始人，感觉你本质上就是一名创始人，但你已经在大公司工作了一段时间了。

And I hear that you're really good at setting a fast pace within larger companies and maintaining that startup focus while also having a very high bar for quality and product.

我听说您非常擅长在大公司中设定快速节奏并保持初创公司的重点，同时对质量和产品也有很高的标准。

Everybody wants this.

每个人都想要这个。

Everyone's like, "Yes, move fast, amazing quality." Why would we not want that?

每个人都会说，“是的，动作快，质量惊人。”为什么我们不想要这样呢？

I'm curious just what you actually put into practice concretely that allow for you to build teams that move really fast and maintain a high bar.

我很好奇你实际上具体付诸了哪些实践，让你能够建立行动迅速并保持高标准的团队。

Are there processes you find helpful, values, ways of working?

您认为哪些流程、价值观和工作方式对您有帮助？

Claire Vo: Yeah, it's really funny, people often think that I get hired into the roles that I get hired into in later stage companies because I'm supposed to teach them how to operate like a big company.

Claire Vo：是的，这真的很有趣，人们经常认为我被雇用到我在后期公司中被雇用的角色，因为我应该教他们如何像大公司一样运作。

And in fact, I say I'm hired to remind them they can operate like a startup.

事实上，我说我被雇佣是为了提醒他们他们可以像初创公司一样运作。

And so I think about it completely differently.

所以我的想法完全不同。

Claire Vo: And there are two things I think about in terms of pace and high bar.

Claire Vo：在节奏和高标准方面，我考虑了两件事。

From a pace, it's know what your internal pace is, and essentially don't let it degrade to the pace of your recurring meetings.

从节奏上看，它知道您的内部节奏是什么，并且本质上不要让它降低到您定期会议的节奏。

I often find that pace of organization locks to pace of the calendar, and so I am really thoughtful that reoccurring meetings do not drive next steps.

我经常发现组织的节奏与日历的节奏锁定，所以我真的很想，重复召开的会议不会推动后续步骤。

It's a very tactical thing, but when somebody says, "Oh, we'll discuss this or we'll decide this in the next meeting," it's, "No, we should discuss this now.

这是一个非常战术性的事情，但是当有人说，“哦，我们将讨论这个问题，或者我们将在下次会议上决定这个问题，”它是，“不，我们现在应该讨论这个问题。

We should decide this tomorrow."

我们应该明天做出决定。”

Claire Vo: The other thing that I think about is setting one click faster pace expectations inside an organization.

Claire Vo：我想到的另一件事是在组织内部设定一键更快的节奏期望。

I tend to come in and love this, hate it, it's what I do, which is if I look at an organization that is operating at a lower pace than I would expect, I communicate to my leaders that my expectation is they bring in the clock speed one click faster, which means if you think something needs to be done this year, it needs to be done this half.

我倾向于喜欢这个，讨厌它，这就是我所做的，如果我看到一个组织的运营速度低于我的预期，我会向我的领导者传达我的期望是他们将时钟速度加快一键，这意味着如果你认为今年需要做某件事，那么就需要在今年完成。

If you think it needs to be done this half, it needs to be done this quarter.

如果你认为这半年需要完成，那么这个季度就需要完成。

This quarter, this month.

这个季度，这个月。

This week, today.

这周，今天。

End of day, in this meeting.

今天的会议结束了。

And actually setting an expectation that your natural pace is going to be slower than your ambition and being explicit about pulling things in I think can change the way expectations are set and honestly change the energy and momentum in the organization.

实际上，设定一个期望，即你的自然节奏将慢于你的野心，并明确地把事情拉进去，我认为可以改变设定期望的方式，并诚实地改变组织中的能量和动力。

Claire Vo: The third thing on pace is personal SLA.

Claire Vo：节奏上的第三件事是个人 SLA。

I never want to be a bottleneck for the organization.

我从来不想成为组织的瓶颈。

This is one of the more challenging things about being in my role, is you are often a point of decision-making, tie-breaking, next steps, approvals, socialization.

这是担任我的角色时更具挑战性的事情之一，因为你经常是决策、打破平局、下一步、批准、社交的关键。

And if my personal SLA is slow, then the rest of my organization cannot be as fast as possible.

如果我个人的 SLA 很慢，那么我组织的其他部分就无法尽可能快。

I try to be fairly responsive.

我尽量做出适当的回应。

I try to say, "Do both very high rate," and also very quickly.

我试着说，“两者都做到非常高的速度”，而且速度非常快。

It's really hard, sometimes it's not totally possible, but it's a goal I have.

这真的很难，有时并不完全可能，但这是我的目标。

Lenny: I love this clock speed concept of just let's move one iteration faster than we would normally move.

Lenny：我喜欢这种时钟速度概念，即让我们比平常更快地进行一次迭代。

How do you actually do that?

你实际上是如何做到的？

Is this just you doing it and then everyone trickles down from the way you're approaching it?

难道只有你在这样做，然后每个人都从你的做法中吸取教训吗？

Is this a principle on a team?

这是团队的原则吗？

Is there a phrase you use?

有你使用的短语吗？

Claire Vo: Yeah, it's a phrase I use and something I asked our leadership teams to do.

克莱尔·沃：是的，这是我使用的一个短语，也是我要求我们的领导团队做的事情。

It started at, one, I'm going to do this, and two, my expectation is you look for opportunities to do this.

一开始，我要这样做，第二，我的期望是你寻找机会这样做。

And the reason I think this is effective, it's very tangible and it's very tactical.

我认为这是有效的，因为它非常有形，而且非常有策略性。

It just is one of those things that a moment when you're about to say a due date, you check yourself and you go, "Is this right or do I need to pull it in by an iteration?" And so it's a very tactical piece of advice and expectation I give to my leadership team.

这只是其中一件事，当你即将说出截止日期时，你会检查自己，然后问：“这是正确的还是我需要通过迭代来拉动它？”所以这是我给我的领导团队的一个非常战术性的建议和期望。

If they can show up that way, then the expected pace of the organization goes up, and then people tend to rise to the occasion.

如果他们能够以这种方式出现，那么组织的预期步伐就会加快，然后人们就会倾向于应对这种情况。

Lenny: And then it connects very directly to your first piece of advice, is not rely on the meeting cadence to determine your action cadence.

莱尼：然后它与你的第一条建议非常直接地联系在一起，就是不要依靠会议节奏来决定你的行动节奏。

I imagine that's a similar situation where you tell people, "Here's how I want to operate," and then you actually work that way and that starts to filter through.

我想这是一个类似的情况，你告诉人们，“这就是我想要的运作方式”，然后你实际上就按照这种方式工作，并且开始渗透进来。

Claire Vo: Yeah, I just think there's this anti-pattern of, "We'll make the decision in the next meeting," or, "We'll follow up on this in the next meeting." That is an artificial timeline introduced by Google Calendar or whatever calendar you use.

克莱尔·沃：是的，我只是认为存在这种反模式，“我们将在下次会议上做出决定”，或者“我们将在下次会议上跟进此事”。这是由 Google 日历或您使用的任何日历引入的人工时间线。

It's not a real thing, and so I want to put us on real timelines.

这不是真实的事情，所以我想让我们了解真实的时间表。

When can we make the decision?

我们什么时候可以做出决定？

How much information do we need?

我们需要多少信息？

And that doesn't mean that every decision is made now, today, tomorrow, but it does mean we don't snap to artificial cadences to make our product move forward.

这并不意味着每一个决定都是现在、今天、明天做出的，但这确实意味着我们不会为了让我们的产品向前发展而遵循人为的节奏。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Let's talk about quality.

我们来谈谈质量。

What are some lessons there?

那里有什么教训？

Claire Vo: Yeah, I think in terms of high bar, there's probably two things that I think about as a leader.

Claire Vo：是的，我认为就高标准而言，作为领导者我可能会考虑两件事。

There's the talent bar being exceptionally high, and then there's the product bar being high.

人才门槛非常高，产品门槛也很高。

Claire Vo: I'll start with talent, which is, on the talent side I think you have to define the bar.

Claire Vo：我将从人才开始，也就是说，在人才方面，我认为你必须定义标准。

You have to be really specific, and that means you have to think about pretty deeply what are your leadership principles?

你必须非常具体，这意味着你必须深入思考你的领导原则是什么？

If your leadership principle is bring the clock speed up one iteration, be explicit that that's what you expect to see, and then articulate that and hold people accountable to it.

如果您的领导原则是加快一次迭代的速度，请明确表明这是您期望看到的，然后阐明这一点并让人们对此负责。

Claire Vo: And so I do think it's really important to have a specific and measurable career ladder, especially at the senior levels.

Claire Vo：所以我确实认为拥有一个具体且可衡量的职业阶梯非常重要，尤其是在高层。

I often find that they're very soft.

我经常发现它们非常柔软。

They're hires and manages multiple departments or takes in cross-functional stakeholder feedback.

他们雇用和管理多个部门，或接受跨职能利益相关者的反馈。

Those are just not tractable, specific things.

这些只是难以处理的具体事情。

And so I think, PMs, put on your product definition or OKR hat or whatever and define some real goals for these levels and be specific in a way that you can look at people and say, definitively, "Yes.

所以我认为，产品经理们，戴上你的产品定义或 OKR 帽子或其他什么，为这些级别定义一些真正的目标，并以一种你可以看着人们并明确地说：“是的。”的方式具体化。

Measurably, yes, they're meaning this bar measurably.

可衡量，是的，他们指的是这个酒吧可衡量。

No, they're not meeting that bar." And so I think that's very important.

不，他们没有达到那个标准。”所以我认为这非常重要。

Claire Vo: The second thing I think is you have to normalize feedback.

Claire Vo：我认为第二件事是你必须规范反馈。

And Brené Brown, fellow Texan, love her, "Clear is kind," I think conflict-avoidant, feedback-avoidant cultures degrade the talent bar.

德克萨斯同胞布蕾妮·布朗 (Brené Brown) 很喜欢她，“清晰就是善良”，我认为回避冲突、回避反馈的文化降低了人才标准。

They just do, because the expectations are not stated and you're not holding accountability.

他们只是这么做，因为没有明确说明期望，而且你也不承担责任。

And I do not think that's kind.

我认为这并不友善。

That is not setting up people for success in their careers.

这并不能帮助人们取得职业成功。

That is not helping them become the best teammate that they can become.

这并不能帮助他们成为最好的队友。

Claire Vo: I really like to normalize feedback and, as I say, take the temperature out of the room when it comes to open and candid feedback.

Claire Vo：我真的很喜欢将反馈标准化，正如我所说，当谈到开放和坦诚的反馈时，要消除房间里的温度。

And that means being very clear when people are not meeting expectations, making it very clear that questioning ideas is not questioning innate talent.

这意味着当人们没有达到期望时要非常清楚，明确质疑想法并不是质疑天赋。

And I think that has something that people need to hear to normalize feedback.

我认为人们需要听到一些东西才能使反馈正常化。

But I think feedback is quite important.

但我认为反馈非常重要。

Claire Vo: And I think the third thing is unfortunately when you're working to build a high talent bar and high talent density, then when folks aren't a fit and it's not working, moving against that quickly is part of the job.

Claire Vo：我认为第三件事不幸的是，当你努力建立一个高人才标准和高人才密度时，当人们不适合并且不起作用时，迅速采取行动就是工作的一部分。

And it's a hard part of the job and it's part of the job that most managers really avoid, but I think it's important because it keeps your overall team operating in a really healthy, effective, performant way that makes everybody happier, including people that probably weren't a great fit for the work of the role at the time.

这是工作中困难的一部分，也是大多数经理真正回避的工作的一部分，但我认为这很重要，因为它可以让整个团队以真正健康、有效、高效的方式运作，让每个人都更快乐，包括那些可能不太适合当时该职位工作的人。

Lenny: Is there an example of you being surprisingly candid to someone or giving feedback, hard feedback, to someone about quality, something that's just like, "Oh wow, that's what I should be doing?"

莱尼：有没有一个例子表明你对某人出奇地坦诚，或者向某人提供关于质量的反馈，严厉的反馈，就像是，“哦哇，这就是我应该做的？”

Claire Vo: There were two leaders in my organization, I won't say which ones and I won't say when, but two leaders in the organization, partners across product and engineering, and they could not get it together.

Claire Vo：我的组织中有两位领导者，我不会说是哪一位，也不会说何时，但是组织中有两位领导者，跨产品和工程的合作伙伴，但他们无法团结在一起。

They could not work together.

他们无法一起工作。

They were having misalignments and priorities strategy.

他们的战略和优先事项不一致。

They could not communicate.

他们无法沟通。

They were having conflict in front of the team.

他们在团队面前发生了冲突。

Claire Vo: And the managers that had managed them were taking this very soft pedal approach of, "You need to work on your functional stakeholder, and here am I expecting all this performance management stuff to happen." And I called both of them individually and I said, "The way you are operating is not meeting our leadership expectations.

克莱尔·沃：管理他们的经理们采取了这种非常温和的方法，“你需要为你的职能利益相关者工作，我希望所有这些绩效管理的事情都会发生。”我分别给他们俩打电话说：“你们的运作方式没有达到我们领导层的期望。

If you do not change, you cannot be part of this organization anymore.

如果你不改变，你就不能再成为这个组织的一部分。

I believe you can operate differently.

我相信你可以采取不同的操作方式。

I do." And I did.

我愿意。”我做到了。

I believe these are very talented people who could operate.

我相信这些都是非常有才华的人，可以操作。

"I believe you can operate differently, but it is your responsibility to do so, and I need to see change starting tomorrow."

“我相信你可以采取不同的运作方式，但这样做是你的责任，我需要从明天开始看到改变。”

Claire Vo: I wanted them to succeed.

克莱尔·沃：我希望他们成功。

And in fact, they did.

事实上，他们确实做到了。

It snapped in, they got it, and one of the...

它突然卡住了，他们得到了它，其中之一......

Turned into one of the most influential effective managers in our team over the course of probably the next six to nine months.

在接下来的六到九个月内，他成为我们团队中最有影响力的高效管理者之一。

And I think just clearly saying, "You are not meeting expectations.

我认为只需明确地说：“你没有达到期望。

You will not be successful here if you continue on this path.

如果你继续走这条路，你就不会成功。

I believe you can get here, but it is your responsibility." That is the conversation that is clear and kind and honestly very effective in most instances.

我相信你能到达这里，但这是你的责任。”在大多数情况下，这种对话是清晰、友善且诚实且非常有效的。

Lenny: That's an amazing example.

莱尼：这是一个了不起的例子。

Clear is kind, as you said.

正如你所说，清晰是善良的。

It reminds me of Kim Scott, who's on the podcast, shared this story about Bob.

这让我想起播客上的金·斯科特分享了这个关于鲍勃的故事。

I don't know if you remember that story at all of just this guy at their company who was just doing a bad job and everyone knew he was doing a bad job, and then they had to fire him.

我不知道你是否还记得他们公司里这个人的故事，他工作做得很糟糕，每个人都知道他做得很糟糕，然后他们不得不解雇他。

When they're firing him, he's just like, "Why didn't you tell me?

当他们解雇他时，他只是说：“你为什么不告诉我？

Why didn't anyone tell me that nobody thought I was doing a great job?"

为什么没有人告诉我，没有人认为我做得很好？”

Claire Vo: And I honestly think saying, "You are not doing a good job," is much kinder than, "I think you can improve on this aspect or that aspect." Or, "I've gotten some feedback that you could be better at..." That's not kind because it doesn't set somebody else up for success either in your organization or somewhere else.

克莱尔·沃：老实说，我认为说“你做得不好”比说“我认为你可以在这个或那个方面改进”要友善得多。或者，“我收到了一些反馈，认为你可以做得更好......”这并不友善，因为它不会让其他人在你的组织或其他地方取得成功。

Lenny: Okay, let's go in a different direction.

莱尼：好吧，我们换个方向吧。

Let's talk about being a woman in tech.

让我们来谈谈如何成为一名科技界的女性。

Lenny: This doesn't get talked about a ton on podcasts like this.

莱尼：在像这样的播客上，这个话题并没有得到太多讨论。

I know you have a lot of thoughts.

我知道你有很多想法。

Obviously, you've been through a lot.

显然，你经历了很多。

You've had a lot of experiences.

你已经有很多经历了。

There's probably a lot of stories you haven't shared in other places, so I just want to give you a chance to share what you've been through, what you've seen, and any advice you may have.

可能有很多故事你没有在其他地方分享过，所以我只是想给你一个机会来分享你所经历的、你所看到的、以及你可能有的建议。

Claire Vo: Yeah, and I'm happy to talk about this.

Claire Vo：是的，我很高兴谈论这个。

I know a lot of people don't want to be defined or consistently asked about being a woman or a mom in a C-level leadership role.

我知道很多人不想被定义或不断被问及担任 C 级领导角色的女性或母亲。

Let's not have women in tech panels anymore.

我们不要再让女性出现在科技小组中了。

But I've been reflecting a bit on this lately because I just came from a few years in healthcare, which, from my experience, it's a lot more women in leadership roles.

但我最近对此进行了一些思考，因为我刚刚在医疗保健行业工作了几年，根据我的经验，担任领导职务的女性要多得多。

I was a little spoiled, even in our technology organization.

即使在我们的技术组织中，我也有点被宠坏了。

And now, I'm back in startups and tech, where the ratios are completely opposite, especially in roles like engineering, which is a team that I run.

现在，我又回到了初创公司和科技公司，两者的比例完全相反，尤其是在我管理的团队中，比如工程部门。

Claire Vo: And look, this is just, it's math.

Claire Vo：看，这只是数学。

I think Carta said that 13-something percent of founders last year were women.

我记得 Carta 说过，去年 13% 左右的创始人是女性。

It's declining year over year.

它正在逐年下降。

FEMA led founded teams, or at least 2% of venture capital, women hold 30% of senior leadership org roles.

FEMA 领导成立的团队，或至少 2% 的风险投资，女性在组织高级领导职位中占 30%。

Women are 30% of software engineering teams.

软件工程团队中女性占 30%。

This is just math.

这只是数学。

We're just facts.

我们只是事实。

We're not in the room in the equal proportions.

我们在房间里的比例并不相等。

And as somebody who has, despite the numbers, had a fairly successful career so far in technology, I feel like I owe it to the industry to say it hasn't been easy and it's still not easy, even at my level.

尽管数量众多，但作为一个迄今为止在技术领域取得相当成功职业生涯的人，我觉得我应该对这个行业说，这并不容易，而且仍然不容易，即使在我的水平上也是如此。

Claire Vo: And what I want to be clear about, because it gets talked about a lot in forms like this, this is not about imposter syndrome.

克莱尔·沃：我想澄清的是，因为它以这样的形式被谈论了很多，这与冒名顶替综合症无关。

How could I have any right to imposter syndrome?

我怎么可能有冒名顶替综合症的权利呢？

I've proven myself.

我已经证明了自己。

I've been a founder, I've raised venture capital, I've had a successful exit.

我曾经是一名创始人，我筹集过风险投资，我也成功退出过。

I've been, as you said, a CPO across increasing large teams.

正如您所说，我一直担任越来越多的大型团队的首席产品官。

I get to invest in red companies.

我开始投资红色公司。

I'm on boards.

我在董事会。

I get to be on this podcast.

我要参加这个播客。

I'm a TikTok influencer.

我是 TikTok 的影响者。

This is not about feeling like an imposter.

这并不是感觉自己像个冒名顶替者。

It's really about, it is hard and it is different, and the numbers pencil out in a way that is not favorable to women.

这实际上是因为，这很困难，而且很不同，而且数字以一种不利于女性的方式出现。

Claire Vo: And as you said, there's been a lot of stuff in the past that you look at me now and you say, "Oh, she did associate and all the way up," but I had to fight for my all-girls school to carry computer science at the same rate that the all-boys school had it naturally.

克莱尔·沃：正如你所说，过去有很多事情，你现在看着我，你会说，“哦，她确实有关联，而且一直在上升，”但我必须为我的女子学校而奋斗，以与男子学校一样的速度教授计算机科学。

I grew up in teeny tiny startups in the early aughts.

我是在早期的小型初创公司中长大的。

I saw some nonsense.

我看到了一些废话。

I had VCs tell me, "Don't get pregnant," when I was...

当我……时，风险投资家告诉我，“不要怀孕”。

These things happened.

这些事情都发生了。

And yet here I am, and it's fine.

但我在这里，这很好。

Claire Vo: And I'm not complaining.

克莱尔·沃：我没有抱怨。

I just think what people also don't understand is that stuff still happens.

我只是认为人们也不明白的是事情仍然会发生。

I don't need to litigate who it happens with, where it happens.

我不需要对这件事发生在谁、发生在哪里进行诉讼。

It still happens.

它仍然发生。

I have arrived and it still happens.

我已经到了，但这种事仍然发生。

And the reason I bring this up is I think it should be a point of reflection for industry, and I think it can be a really effective point of reflection for women who want to get into leadership roles.

我提出这个问题的原因是，我认为这应该成为行业的反思点，而且我认为对于想要担任领导角色的女性来说，这可能是一个真正有效的反思点。

Claire Vo: And the way I approach it is I'm just very curious.

Claire Vo：我的处理方式是我很好奇。

I wonder what is structural about technology that creates these things happen?

我想知道创造这些事情发生的技术的结构是什么？

What is cultural?

什么是文化？

What is external?

什么是外在的？

What has happened to me or happens around me?

我身上发生了什么或者我周围发生了什么？

What is internal?

什么是内部？

What do I bring into the room that doesn't serve me?

我可以带什么进入不适合我的房间？

And so I try to stay very curious.

所以我尽量保持好奇心。

And then constant product thinker, what are the points of leverage I can use to move things not just forward for me, but for the industry broadly?

然后，持续不断的产品思考者，我可以利用哪些杠杆点来推动事情的发展，不仅是为了我自己，也是为了整个行业？

How can I influence thinking?

我怎样才能影响思维？

Where can I not?

我哪里不能呢？

Where can I walk away from things?

我可以在哪里远离事物？

Claire Vo: And then as for the internal aspect of it, I think this is also a very powerful thing, which is I try to stay in an empowered space.

Claire Vo：然后至于它的内部方面，我认为这也是一个非常强大的事情，就是我尝试留在一个被授权的空间中。

I know my value.

我知道我的价值。

I have no time for imposter syndrome.

我没有时间去面对冒名顶替综合症。

It's not a constructive thing for me, but I do think knowing that, as I said earlier, the universe is bendable to your will.

这对我来说不是一件有建设性的事情，但我确实认为知道，正如我之前所说，宇宙是可以屈服于你的意志的。

There are things we can change.

有些事情我们可以改变。

I don't think these numbers are not tractable.

我不认为这些数字是不可处理的。

And so my recommendation and what I'd love to say to the industry generally, to women in particular, is curiosity and empowerment have been my path to joy in this sometimes complicated industry.

因此，我的建议以及我想对整个行业（尤其是女性）说的是，好奇心和赋权是我在这个有时复杂的行业中获得快乐的途径。

And I think there's a lot better we can do.

我认为我们可以做得更好。

There's a little bit of ways to go.

还有一些路要走。

Lenny: Is there a story that you could share if you're comfortable of just something you've gone through or been through that maybe people are like, "Oh, wow, I see what stuff she's dealing with or other women are dealing with that I had no sense of?"

莱尼：如果你对自己经历过的事情感到舒服，或者人们可能会说，“哦，哇，我看到她正在处理的事情或其他女人正在处理的事情是我没有意识到的，你可以分享一个故事吗？”

Claire Vo: I've been trying to wrap my head around this one, which is I consistently get asked if I'm technical enough.

Claire Vo：我一直在努力解决这个问题，那就是我经常被问到我的技术是否足够。

Not even if I'm technical enough.

即使我的技术足够好也不行。

Let's put enough aside.

让我们先把足够的东西放在一边。

If I'm technical.

如果我是技术人员的话。

And it's fascinating to me because as a technical co-founder of my startup, I wrote code for the first 12 months solo.

这对我来说很着迷，因为作为我的初创公司的技术联合创始人，我在前 12 个月里独自编写代码。

I led the engineering team there.

我在那里领导了工程团队。

That code is still in production in very large environments.

该代码仍在非常大的环境中生产。

I have run multi-hundred people, engineering teams for many years, and I spend my Saturdays and Sundays shipping code.

我多年来一直管理着数百人的工程团队，并且我利用周六和周日的时间来发送代码。

This is what I do.

这就是我所做的。

And truly, the first question most people ask me is, "Oh, well you're not technical though.

确实，大多数人问我的第一个问题是：“哦，好吧，你不懂技术。

You're a product person."

你是一个产品人。”

Claire Vo: And I've been really trying to unpack where that is coming from.

Claire Vo：我一直在努力找出它的来源。

It's hard for me to imagine somebody else that looks different, that has a different name, that has a different gender getting that question with my background.

我很难想象其他看起来不同、名字不同、性别不同的人会以我的背景来回答这个问题。

And so that's one of those things that has really been spinning my head.

这就是让我头晕的事情之一。

Again, it's not about imposter syndrome.

再说一次，这与冒名顶替综合症无关。

I don't have anything to prove to people, but I am quite curious where that orientation comes from.

我没有什么可以向人们证明的，但我很好奇这种取向从何而来。

And if it comes to somebody like me, who has really had some proven success, I know it's happening to other people, and I'm hoping that I can do something from my position to turn that a little bit.

如果它涉及到像我这样确实取得了一些成功的人，我知道这也发生在其他人身上，我希望我能从我的立场做一些事情来扭转这一局面。

Lenny: And this connects to what you shared, the advice you had of just try to get curious about why it's happening, which is exactly what you just said.

莱尼：这与你分享的内容有关，你的建议是试着好奇为什么会发生这种情况，这正是你刚才所说的。

Is that just mostly to help you not get upset and frustrated?

这主要是为了帮助您不感到不安和沮丧吗？

Let me just understand, why is this happening again and again?

让我明白，为什么这样的事一而再再而三地发生？

Claire Vo: One, I do think sitting in your power is very effective.

Claire Vo：第一，我确实认为掌握你的权力是非常有效的。

And so curiosity means that I'm in control, and I do think I'm in control more than I'm not.

因此，好奇心意味着我能掌控一切，而且我确实认为我能掌控的程度比我无法掌控的程度要高。

That's one part of it is, I think.

我认为这是其中的一部分。

And the other thing is I think a lot of this is it's complicated.

另一件事是我认为这很复杂。

It's structural, it's cultural.

这是结构性的，也是文化性的。

It's what you see and what you don't see, not just in the workplace.

这是你看到的和你没看到的，而不仅仅是在工作场所。

It's what you see and don't see in media.

这就是你在媒体上看到和看不到的东西。

Am I reading my 7-year-old and my 4-year-old books of, "My grandma's a software engineer?"

我是在读我 7 岁和 4 岁孩子的书《我的奶奶是一名软件工程师》吗？

Claire Vo: Books called the Mom Test, which I actually think is a great book, but it has this underlying presumption of who is technical, who's not, who understands things, who doesn't.

Claire Vo：有一本叫做《妈妈测试》的书，我实际上认为这是一本很棒的书，但它有这样一个基本假设：谁是技术人员，谁不是技术人员，谁理解事物，谁不理解事物。

And that all bubbles up into how individuals experience an industry that's driving tremendous economic growth here, where at the end of the day, it's about economic participation.

这一切都体现在个人如何体验这个推动巨大经济增长的行业，归根结底，这与经济参与有关。

It can be about individuals and aspirations, but it is also about economic participation.

它可以与个人和愿望有关，但也与经济参与有关。

Claire Vo: The reason I'm curious about it is I do think it's complicated and I do think you can be successful, but I don't think we're being successful at the rates I would love to see.

Claire Vo：我对此感到好奇的原因是，我确实认为这很复杂，而且我确实认为你可以成功，但我认为我们并没有以我希望看到的速度取得成功。

And I think we're missing a lot of innovation and a lot of economic growth by not having incredible, technical, capable women start companies and lead organizations.

我认为，由于没有令人难以置信的、技术精湛、有能力的女性创办公司和领导组织，我们错过了很多创新和很多经济增长。

And so I think we're all missing out for that, and I'd love to see more of it.

所以我认为我们都错过了这一点，我很想看到更多这样的事情。

Lenny: And is there an answer to how do we do this better?

莱尼：我们如何做得更好有答案吗？

Anything you think, hey, you've seen work to help get us past this?

嘿，你有什么想法可以帮助我们克服这个困难吗？

Claire Vo: I think normalize seeing it, so thanks for bringing me on this podcast, but I do think normalize seeing it is one of the simplest ways.

Claire Vo：我认为标准化看到它，所以感谢你带我参加这个播客，但我确实认为标准化看到它是最简单的方法之一。

If you close your eyes and imagine a software engineer, my dream is you imagine a diverse set of folks.

如果你闭上眼睛想象一个软件工程师，我的梦想是你想象一群不同的人。

You don't imagine a very specific art type.

你不会想象出一种非常具体的艺术类型。

And so I do think you can't believe it unless you see it, and so the more that you can provide platforms for diverse voices to talk about their journey in technology, expose that there are leaders out there that come from different backgrounds, technically, culturally, all those things, the more the industry can imagine different types of leaders in different types of roles.

因此，我确实认为，除非亲眼所见，否则你无法相信这一点，因此，你越能为不同的声音提供平台来谈论他们的技术之旅，暴露出来自不同背景、技术、文化等方面的领导者，行业就越能想象不同类型的领导者担任不同类型的角色。

Claire Vo: And so I just want to see it more.

Claire Vo：所以我只是想多看一些。

I want to invest more and raise the voices of female founders.

我想加大投资并提高女性创始人的声音。

I want to call out their amazing female CTOs out there, all those things.

我想赞扬他们出色的女性首席技术官，诸如此类。

And I think if you can see it, you can start to unlock these very embedded concepts of who is and is not a technology leader who is and is not technical.

我认为，如果你能看到这一点，你就可以开始解开这些非常根深蒂固的概念，即谁是技术领导者，谁不是技术领导者，谁是技术领导者，谁不是技术领导者。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

I love that advice.

我喜欢这个建议。

It's something I try really hard to do with this podcast.

这是我在这个播客中非常努力要做的事情。

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莱尼：这一集是万塔给你带来的。

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加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。

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访问vanta.com/lenny 即可享受Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny.

那是 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny。

Lenny: I know you have a fun story about when you were very pregnant selling your startup to Optimizely.

Lenny：我知道你有一个有趣的故事，讲的是你怀孕的时候把你的初创公司卖给 Optimizely。

Can you share that story?

你能分享那个故事吗？

I haven't actually heard the story.

我其实没听过这个故事。

Claire Vo: Yeah, this was a fun one.

克莱尔·沃：是的，这很有趣。

Again, this is the universe is bendable to your will and lean into your power, which is, I had been running Experiment Engine, which was a platform for enterprises to run high scale experimentation programs.

再说一次，这就是宇宙可以屈服于你的意志并依靠你的力量，也就是说，我一直在运行实验引擎，这是一个供企业运行大规模实验程序的平台。

Not necessarily the underlying A/B testing technology, but all the stuff around hypothesis gathering, insights, aggregation, operations, keeping things on track.

不一定是底层的 A/B 测试技术，而是围绕假设收集、见解、聚合、操作、让事情步入正轨的所有内容。

Because I really know, as you do, that high scale experimentation programs can be very impactful to businesses.

因为我和您一样知道，大规模的实验计划可能对企业产生非常大的影响。

Claire Vo: That being said, it was like a niche inside in industry, as opposed to a large TAM problem.

Claire Vo：话虽如此，这就像行业内部的一个利基市场，而不是一个大的 TAM 问题。

And so I think we just fundamentally hit a TAM ceiling here.

所以我认为我们从根本上达到了 TAM 的上限。

We had a great product for a great market that was very narrow.

我们为一个非常狭窄的巨大市场提供了出色的产品。

And three years, four years into running the company, I knew that to be true and I knew that we would be better served by being part of a larger organization, and one of those organizations could be a large testing company.

经营公司三年、四年后，我知道这是真的，我知道成为更大组织的一部分会为我们提供更好的服务，而其中一个组织可能是一家大型测试公司。

And so I remember that was noodling on my mind, but we were also really trying to sell to enterprises.

所以我记得我一直在想这个问题，但我们也确实在尝试向企业销售。

Claire Vo: And I heard that Microsoft, who was one of our biggest customers, was doing a experimentation day with Optimizely, and I knew Optimizely was a natural acquirer.

Claire Vo：我听说 Microsoft（我们最大的客户之一）正在与 Optimizely 进行实验，我知道 Optimizely 是一个天然的收购者。

And I knew I had to get into that room, so I called Microsoft and I said, "Hey, friend of Microsoft, I'm going to be up in Seattle seeing our other customer, very large Seattle company, this week, week of experimentation day.

我知道我必须进入那个房间，所以我打电话给微软，我说：“嘿，微软的朋友，我要去西雅图拜访我们的另一个客户，西雅图的一家非常大的公司，这周是实验日。

Could we stop by?" And they're like, "Oh yeah, sure." Well, then I went to other big Seattle companies and said, "Hey, other big Seattle company, I'm going to be up Microsoft at their experimentation day.

我们可以顺便过来一下吗？”他们就像，“哦，是的，当然。”好吧，然后我去了西雅图的其他大公司并说：“嘿，西雅图的其他大公司，我将在微软的实验日上支持他们。

Would you be..."

你会不会是……”

Claire Vo: I got these two meetings to manifest against each other, and then I walked into that experimentation day and I eyeballed the CFO of Optimizely and I sat in front of him and started pulling up the product and coding at the same time.

Claire Vo：我让这两次会议相互矛盾，然后我走进了那个实验日，我注视着 Optimizely 的首席财务官，我坐在他面前，同时开始拉出产品和编码。

I was just like, "I'm going to sit in front of him in the row and I'm going to do this and we're going to have my screens." And then I went up and did a demo.

我当时想，“我要坐在他前面，我要做这件事，我们要有我的屏幕。”然后我上去做了一个演示。

And I'm not saying that's the thing that made it happen, but I will say very quickly after that, we became very close partners and ultimately they acquired me.

我并不是说这就是它发生的原因，但我会说在那之后很快，我们成为了非常亲密的合作伙伴，最终他们收购了我。

Claire Vo: And I give this advice to founders because one of the things that, and founders and PMs, one of the things that I really hire for is scrappiness.

Claire Vo：我向创始人提出这个建议，因为我聘用创始人和产品经理的真正目的之一就是斗志旺盛。

I think you have to be able to do a lot with a little, and I think you have to know where you're getting and, come hell or high water, figure out a way to get there.

我认为你必须能够用一点点做很多事情，而且我认为你必须知道你要达到的目标，无论是地狱还是高潮，都要找到一种方法来达到目标​​。

And this was a very fun example of working my way into the right room, setting myself up for the success that I wanted, and having the backing, the good job, the great product, the outcomes to earn it.

这是一个非常有趣的例子，我努力进入了正确的房间，为自己想要的成功做好了准备，并获得了支持、出色的工作、出色的产品以及赢得成功的成果。

But you also have to get yourself in the room.

但你也必须让自己进入房间。

Lenny: And how many months pregnant were you?

莱尼：你怀孕几个月了？

Claire Vo: I was extremely pregnant.

克莱尔·沃：我当时非常怀孕。

A ticking time bomb of a belly is a really good negotiation tactic in a deal.

肚子里的定时炸弹是交易中非常好的谈判策略。

I think I remember when we were negotiating the final term sheet, I was 34 weeks pregnant, something like that, and they said, "Can you fly out to San Francisco?" I was in Austin at the time.

我想我记得当我们谈判最终投资意向书时，我已经怀孕 34 周了，他们说，“你能飞到旧金山吗？”当时我在奥斯汀。

And I said, "Literally, you can fly me out today and back tomorrow, and then I'm not allowed on planes." And that's how.

我说：“说实话，你可以今天带我出去，明天再带我回来，然后我就不能坐飞机了。”就是这样。

It was very fun.

非常有趣。

It was fun, and what a happy acquisition.

这很有趣，也是一次多么愉快的收购。

I can talk all day about how that was great.

我可以整天谈论这有多棒。

Great experience.

很棒的经历。

Lenny: And I love it's another example of the phrase you've been coming back to of bending, I don't know if it's bending the world to your will.

莱尼：我喜欢这是你经常提到的“弯曲”这句话的另一个例子，我不知道它是否让世界屈服于你的意志。

Claire Vo: Bending the universe towards your will.

Claire Vo：让宇宙按照你的意愿弯曲。

Lenny: The universe?

莱尼：宇宙？

Even bigger.

更大。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

It feels like a recurring theme here, is to take agency and control where your career and life is going.

感觉这里有一个反复出现的主题，那就是掌控并控制你的职业和生活的走向。

And that's such a good example of just finding a way into this room that would be very hard for someone to get into.

这是一个很好的例子，说明如何找到一种方法进入这个房间，而其他人很难进入。

Lenny: You've touched on the CTPO role that I haven't heard much about.

Lenny：你提到了 CTPO 的角色，但我没怎么听说过。

And I know that this is a big topic for you, and I feel like there might be a trend happening here of combining engineering product.

我知道这对你来说是一个很大的话题，我觉得这里可能会出现一种结合工程产品的趋势。

Can you just talk about this role and why you think it might be emerging?

您能谈谈这个角色以及您认为它可能会出现的原因吗？

Claire Vo: Yeah, I get asked about it a lot because it's not super rare, but it's not super common either, and I think it could potentially be rising.

Claire Vo：是的，我经常被问到这个问题，因为它并不是非常罕见，但也不是非常常见，而且我认为它可能会上升。

And I'm using CPTO for short code of running product and engineering design functionally together.

我使用 CPTO 来编写同时运行产品和工程设计功能的简短代码。

It's very different.

这是非常不同的。

I've done both.

我都做过。

It's very different than a pure product or a VP product role.

它与纯粹的产品或副总裁产品角色非常不同。

Claire Vo: And so first, I talked a little bit about how I got into this role.

Claire Vo：首先，我谈了一些我是如何进入这个角色的。

I do think you have to be technical to do a role like this.

我确实认为你必须具备技术才能担任这样的角色。

I think a lot of people look at my professional background and think that I use my broad leadership skills and leverage of a great SVP to keep engineering team going.

我认为很多人看到我的专业背景后都认为我利用了广泛的领导技能和出色的高级副总裁的影响力来保持工程团队的持续发展。

But no, actually I spent quite a bit of time on the engineering side, because as somebody who is responsible for the business outcomes of the product, one of the best ways to drive value is having a highly performant engineering team that works on a scalable platform.

但不，实际上我在工程方面花了相当多的时间，因为作为负责产品业务成果的人，推动价值的最佳方法之一是拥有一支在可扩展平台上工作的高性能工程团队。

Claire Vo: And so I spend a lot of time making sure that we're building the right architectural decisions, that our infrastructure meets the needs of our team, that our edge team is operating in a way that drives velocity.

Claire Vo：所以我花了很多时间来确保我们正在制定正确的架构决策，我们的基础设施满足我们团队的需求，我们的边缘团队正在以提高速度的方式运作。

And I just don't think you can do that job if you don't understand how software gets built on a technical level.

我认为如果您不了解软件如何在技术层面上构建，您就无法完成这项工作。

So I'm the kind of person that when we're doing a product review, I have the PRD up and GitHub up and I'm comparing both, because I think both sides matter.

所以我是这样一种人，当我们进行产品审查时，我会将 PRD 和 GitHub 放在一起，然后对两者进行比较，因为我认为双方都很重要。

Claire Vo: I think the other thing that's different about this role is it's quite operational, and so you really have to know about operations and organization design.

Claire Vo：我认为这个角色的另一个不同之处是它的操作性很强，所以你真的必须了解操作和组织设计。

Edge teams are by nature much larger than product organizations.

边缘团队本质上比产品组织大得多。

You just think about the classic ratios, there are more people in engineering than there are in product.

你只要想想经典的比率，工程人员比产品人员多。

And the talent challenges are significantly different in engineering, whether it's the high volume of recruiting, culture-shaped challenges are different.

工程领域的人才挑战明显不同，无论是大量的招聘，还是文化塑造的挑战都是不同的。

You have to really think about org design.

你必须真正考虑组织设计。

And so you have to have a different level of mindset around organization design and operations when you're in a CPTO role.

因此，当您担任 CPTO 角色时，您必须对组织设计和运营有不同程度的思维定势。

Claire Vo: You're on pager duty.

克莱尔·沃：你正在值班传呼。

You're getting paged at 1:00 AM if a service, if there's a Sub-Zero and it goes down.

如果某项服务出现零度以下故障并且出现故障，您将在凌晨 1:00 收到寻呼。

That is not what it's like to be a product leader.

这不是产品领导者的感觉。

So you got to know what you're getting into and you have to be technical.

所以你必须知道自己要做什么，并且必须具备技术性。

And then the thing I would be remiss to say about this role is the P and the T get a lot of air time.

然后，关于这个角色，我要说的是，P 和 T 得到了很多播出时间，这是我的失职。

Product and engineering get a lot of air time.

产品和工程获得了大量的播出时间。

Design data, these are such functional, very important organizations, and why these roles get...

设计数据，这些都是功能性的、非常重要的组织，以及为什么这些角色......

That's what the role is and how you could be good at it or whether it would be a fit for your skills.

这就是这个角色是什么，以及你如何能够擅长这个角色，或者它是否适合你的技能。

Claire Vo: The question of why have this kind of role, and I think there's two reasons.

傅克莱尔：为什么要扮演这样的角色，我认为有两个原因。

There's the obvious strategic reason of, they're all the same thing.

有一个明显的战略原因，它们都是同一件事。

They're all building capital P product, they're all builders, they're the same types of folks, they're all builders, and bringing them under one house allows you to optimize for the whole, as opposed to optimize for the function.

他们都在建造资本 P 产品，他们都是建设者，他们是同一类型的人，他们都是建设者，将他们放在一所房子下可以让你优化整体，而不是优化功能。

And if you can find a leader that is effective at that, I think you can get a lot of value added.

如果你能找到一位在这方面卓有成效的领导者，我认为你可以获得很多附加值。

And honestly, the second thing is it provides a tremendous amount of leverage to the CEO in many ways.

老实说，第二件事是它在很多方面为首席执行官提供了巨大的影响力。

At the end of the day, R&D is a very expensive and complicated investment the company is making, and having a single person responsible for R&D investment at the executive level is quite important, especially when you're candidly spending a lot there.

归根结底，研发是公司正在进行的一项非常昂贵且复杂的投资，在高管层有一个负责研发投资的人非常重要，特别是当你坦白地在那里花费很多钱时。

Claire Vo: And so I think it's those two things.

Claire Vo：所以我认为是这两件事。

It's, these are one team.

这是，这是一个团队。

There should be be no debates over what's best for product or what's best for engineering, what's best for design.

不应该存在关于什么对产品最好、什么对工程最好、什么对设计最好的争论。

It should be what is best for the organization at whole.

它应该是对整个组织最有利的。

What do our customers need and what do our business needs?

我们的客户需要什么，我们的业务需要什么？

And then it's the accountability candidly of this quite meaningful investment against business objectives and having a singularly responsible individual to care for that investment.

然后是对这项非常有意义的投资对业务目标的坦诚问责，并有一个特别负责的个人来照顾这项投资。

Lenny: It sounds wonderful, having one person to deal with across all these functions.

莱尼：听起来很棒，由一个人来处理所有这些职能。

Claire Vo: It is and isn't.

克莱尔·沃：是的，也不是。

I'll just say, I've done both.

我只想说，这两件事我都做过。

I've been a CPO next to an SVP of Eng.

我曾担任首席产品官，旁边是工程师高级副总裁。

I've run both together.

我两个都一起跑过

Founders can play this role.

创始人可以扮演这个角色。

And again, this is why I say you have to optimize around talent in your organization.

再说一遍，这就是为什么我说你必须围绕组织中的人才进行优化。

If your CEO has the skills, bandwidth, et cetera, to do this, they can do this.

如果你的首席执行官有能力、有能力等来做到这一点，他们就可以做到。

You can keep the organization separate.

您可以使组织保持独立。

They can hold that.

他们可以坚持这一点。

If they have a different area of expertise, if they've never done that before, if it's just not working operationally, they have broader areas of focus, then bring it together under someone.

如果他们有不同的专业领域，如果他们以前从未这样做过，如果只是在操作上不起作用，他们有更广泛的重点领域，然后将其整合到某人的领导下。

I don't think there's a perfect organization structure.

我认为不存在完美的组织结构。

This has just been one that's worked well in the shape of organizations that need someone like me.

对于需要像我这样的人的组织来说，这是一种行之有效的方法。

Lenny: And along the same lines, designing an org around the person, I imagine there's not many very engineering background experience people that are also really good at product and can do design.

莱尼：同样，围绕人设计一个组织，我想没有多少具有工程背景经验的人也非常擅长产品并且可以进行设计。

I guess how deep do you need to be in each of these functions to be successful in this role?

我想你需要对每个职能有多深入才能成功担任这个角色？

Because it feels really rare.

因为感觉真的很少见。

Claire Vo: Start a company and then you have to do it, in some ways.

Claire Vo：创办一家公司，然后你必须以某种方式去做。

I've worked for both and they've told me, I've worked for two, they go, "I'm not a founder, but I'm the CEO." And I go, "That's fine.

我为两家公司工作过，他们告诉我，我为两家公司工作过，他们说，“我不是创始人，但我是首席执行官。”我说：“没关系。

I'm an operator, but I'm going to bring a founder mindset."

我是一名运营商，但我将带来创始人的心态。”

Claire Vo: And so I think as a founder, especially early stage, you do all of this.

Claire Vo：所以我认为作为创始人，尤其是早期阶段的创始人，你会做所有这些事情。

You see how all of this is one person, because honestly sometimes it is one person, and sometimes that person is you.

你会看到这一切都是一个人，因为老实说有时这是一个人，有时那个人就是你。

And so I do think working in a very small startup gives you the opportunity to experience a breadth of functional skills and develop a breadth of functional skills that can set you up for this kind of role much further down the line.

因此，我确实认为在一家非常小的初创公司工作可以让你有机会体验广泛的职能技能并发展广泛的职能技能，这些技能可以帮助你为将来担任此类角色做好准备。

I do think early stage startup experience is one of those shortcuts to getting visibility here.

我确实认为早期创业经验是在这里获得知名度的捷径之一。

Claire Vo: I think the other thing is, again, I said this earlier, so many people get siloed into, "I'm a product manager, and so my job is this, but it's not that.

Claire Vo：我认为另一件事是，我之前说过，很多人都陷入了困境，“我是一名产品经理，所以我的工作是这样的，但不是那样的。

And I can only do this, and if designs are needed, I am blocked and I will just wait." And I just give permission for people to make...

而我只能这么做，如果需要设计，我就被挡住了，我就只能等待。”我只是允许人们做...

We have a leadership principle inside our team that's like, "There are no lanes." Our lanes are dotted.

我们团队内部有一个领导原则，就像“没有通道”。我们的车道星罗棋布。

They're not solid in that you can shift over and pencil out a design, an engineer can write a spec.

它们并不可靠，因为你可以转移并用铅笔写出设计，工程师可以编写规格。

All those things are fine.

所有这些都很好。

They're natural, they're normal, and I actually think they're quite healthy.

它们是自然的、正常的，而且我实际上认为它们非常健康。

And it's that kind of thinking that probably is going to breed the type of leaders that could do this type of role.

正是这种思维可能会培育出能够担任此类角色的领导者。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

It reminds me at GitLab.

这让我想起了 GitLab。

I just interviewed their head of product, or CPO, and they have a core value of, "Short toes." Don't worry about stepping on people's toes.

我刚刚采访了他们的产品主管，或者说 CPO，他们的核心价值观是“脚趾短”。不用担心踩到别人的脚趾。

Have short toes.

脚趾短。

Don't worry about people getting into your stuff.

不用担心人们侵入你的东西。

It's all good.

一切都很好。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

You mentioned AI.

你提到了人工智能。

Amazing segue to my next topic that I want to spend some time on.

令人惊奇地继续我想花一些时间讨论的下一个主题。

You built a tool called ChatPRD.

您构建了一个名为 ChatPRD 的工具。

My guess is it's the single most popular AI PM-specific tool out there, other than some big company's tool like, I don't know, Sprague or Figma or something like that.

我的猜测是，除了一些大公司的工具（我不知道，Sprague 或 Figma 或类似的工具）之外，它是最流行的 AI PM 专用工具。

First of all, just what is ChatPRD, and then why did you build it?

首先，什么是 ChatPRD，然后为什么要构建它？

Claire Vo: Yeah.

克莱尔·沃：是的。

ChatPRD comes out of, again, pace setting.

ChatPRD 再次源于节奏设定。

And I'll actually tell you the real genesis of ChatPRD, which is at a previous company we had a quite technical product we needed to build.

事实上，我会告诉你 ChatPRD 的真正起源，在之前的一家公司，我们需要构建一个相当技术性的产品。

We're scrappy and resource-constrained, and our platform PMs were working on something very important, but this was critical and we needed to get it done.

我们斗志旺盛，资源有限，我们的平台 PM 正在做一些非常重要的事情，但这很关键，我们需要完成它。

And we didn't really have a platform technical PM to spec this thing out.

我们并没有真正的平台技术 PM 来规范这个事情。

And it was quite complicated.

这非常复杂。

Claire Vo: And I raised my hand and I said, "I'll IC this.

克莱尔·沃：我举起手说：“我会对此进行记录。

I think I know what we need." And between the beginning of the meeting and the end of the meeting, I had used ChatGPT and a prompt to come up with a very serviceable PRD spec for this very technical product.

我想我知道我们需要什么。”在会议开始和会议结束之间，我使用了 ChatGPT 和提示，为这个技术性很强的产品制定了一个非常有用的 PRD 规范。

And I took that prompt and that long-running ChatGPT thread and crafted the Claire version of a product leader or product person that could, with really solid consistency, output product specs, give good feedback, build out plans, build out tracking mechanisms and goals.

我根据这个提示和长期运行的 ChatGPT 线程，制作了 Claire 版本的产品领导者或产品人员，可以以真正可靠的一致性输出产品规格，提供良好的反馈，制定计划，制定跟踪机制和目标。

Claire Vo: And so while I say, "She may just be a prompt, but she is prompt," this was lovingly crafted over several months.

克莱尔·沃：所以，当我说“她可能只是一个提示，但她很及时”时，这是我花了几个月精心制作的。

And so when the GPT Store came out, for my team I just said, "Hey, you all know I've been writing PRDs with ChatGPT." I created a GPT and just gave it to my team.

因此，当 GPT 商店推出时，我只是对我的团队说：“嘿，你们都知道我一直在使用 ChatGPT 编写 PRD。”我创建了一个 GPT 并将其交给了我的团队。

I was like, "Here, you can use this if you want it." And they really liked it, and other people started asking about it and I eventually ran into the monetization and access wall that is the GPT Store right now.

我当时想，“在这里，如果你想要的话，你可以使用它。”他们真的很喜欢它，其他人开始询问它，我最终遇到了现在的 GPT 商店的货币化和访问墙。

And so I've also been having a lot of fun coding again, and so I thought, this is easy.

所以我也再次享受了很多有趣的编码，所以我想，这很容易。

We're just going to stand up a standalone app and wrap, come on, it's a wrapper, it started as wrapper, wrap some of these capabilities and just publish it and put a fairly reasonable price tag on it and see what happens.

我们将建立一个独立的应用程序并进行包装，来吧，它是一个包装器，它最初是作为包装器，包装其中一些功能，然后发布它并在其上贴上相当合理的价格标签，看看会发生什么。

Claire Vo: And now, I have thousands of people using ChatPRD.

Claire Vo：现在，我有数千人使用 ChatPRD。

Every day, people are creating dozens of specs and PRDs every month.

每天，人们每个月都会创建数十个规范和 PRD。

It's everything from, "I'm an engineer on a team with too few PMs and I get blocked, so I'm going to build my own requirements," to, "I'm a solo founder and I need to put some structure on my thought for my team," to, "I'm a PM and this has saved me truly hours of work to get the basics of my product requirements done so I can spend time on the details." And then I've added on more functions and capabilities than the standalone app.

内容包括：“我是一名工程师，所在团队的 PM 太少，我会受到阻碍，所以我要构建自己的需求”，“我是一名独立创始人，我需要为我的团队制定一些想法”，再到“我是一名 PM，这确实为我节省了数小时的工作时间来完成产品需求的基础知识，这样我就可以花时间在细节上。”然后我添加了比独立应用程序更多的功能和功能。

It is my personal product copilot that I've released for the world.

这是我向全世界发布的我的个人产品副驾驶。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

First of all, where can people check this out?

首先，人们可以在哪里检查这一点？

Is it chatprd.com?

是 chatprd.com 吗？

Lenny: I saw some stuff about the country that has .ai is just making so much bank right now.

莱尼：我看到了一些关于这个拥有 .ai 的国家现在正在赚很多钱的事情。

All these domains.: Then in terms of the stack, just to be clear, so it started as a ChatGPT prompt, custom prompt, you evolved, then it became a GPT, a custom GPT, and now it's your own app that is using the OpenAI APIs behind-

所有这些领域。：然后就堆栈而言，需要明确的是，它一开始是一个 ChatGPT 提示、自定义提示，后来演变，然后它变成了一个 GPT、一个自定义 GPT，现在它是您自己的应用程序，正在使用背后的 OpenAI API -

Claire Vo: It is, yeah.

克莱尔·沃：是的，是的。

It's using the assistance APIs.

它使用辅助 API。

And what's different about the standalone app versus the GPT is every person that uses the standalone app gets a customized assistant.

独立应用程序与 GPT 的不同之处在于，每个使用独立应用程序的人都会获得一个定制的助手。

It learns from their specific content.

它从它们的具体内容中学习。

It learns from their role.

它从他们的角色中学习。

It learns from their company.

它向他们的公司学习。

If you use the GPT version, you're not getting that customization.

如果您使用 GPT 版本，则无法获得该自定义功能。

When you use the standalone app, you are getting that customization.

当您使用独立应用程序时，您将获得自定义功能。

And then I've layered on a couple of different capabilities.

然后我分层了几种不同的功能。

In addition to having the chat format, it will actually create the document for you and iterate on the actual doc for you, and then working on some additional tools and integrations in the future.

除了具有聊天格式之外，它实际上还会为您创建文档并为您迭代实际文档，然后在将来开发一些其他工具和集成。

Lenny: Okay, great.

莱尼：好的，太好了。

What are the most common use cases again?

最常见的用例是什么？

Just so people can get a sense of, "Oh, let me use this for these things."

只是为了让人们能够感觉到，“哦，让我用这个来做这些事情。”

Claire Vo: Yeah, about 60% of people use it to put in an idea and get a PRD out.

Claire Vo：是的，大约 60% 的人用它来提出想法并获得 PRD。

Just get the specs of what are my objectives and user goals, what are user stories, what is out of scope, walk through the UX.

只需了解我的目标和用户目标是什么、用户故事是什么、超出范围的内容，然后浏览一下用户体验即可。

In our standard template, I have what's called a narrative, which is, how do you pitch this product?

在我们的标准模板中，我有所谓的叙述，也就是说，你如何推销这个产品？

Which I feel like is a thing product managers miss a lot, which is how to position and pitch it, sequencing and milestones, measurements and goals, all those sorts of things.

我觉得产品经理经常错过这一点，那就是如何定位和推销它、排序和里程碑、衡量和目标，所有这些事情。

Claire Vo: Now, that's the out-of-the-box template.

Claire Vo：现在，这就是开箱即用的模板。

As I said, you can actually customize what your PRD template is in ChatPRD if you do something different or want something different for your company.

正如我所说，如果您做一些不同的事情或希望为您的公司做一些不同的事情，您实际上可以在 ChatPRD 中自定义 PRD 模板。

About 60% of people are using it for that.

大约 60% 的人为此使用它。

30% of people, I would say, are using it to put in a spec or a PRD or a strategy doc or a roadmap and improve it.

我想说，30% 的人正在使用它来放入规范、PRD、策略文档或路线图并对其进行改进。

And then the rest are using it to brainstorm ideas, internal PM work.

然后剩下的人用它来集思广益，进行内部 PM 工作。

How do I come up with a good agenda for X, Y, and Z?

我如何为 X、Y 和 Z 制定一个好的议程？

That kind of stuff.

那种东西。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so I wrote a post recently sharing a bunch of examples of how people are using different GPT specifically at work, and I think it's spurred a lot of people to experiment with this stuff.

好的，我最近写了一篇文章，分享了一系列人们如何在工作中具体使用不同 GPT 的示例，我认为这刺激了很多人尝试这些东西。

If there's one tip that you could share for someone that's trying to build a GPT or their own custom app using APIs, any advice?

如果您可以向尝试使用 API 构建 GPT 或自己的自定义应用程序的人分享一个技巧，有什么建议吗？

Claire Vo: Prompt matters.

Claire Vo：提示问题。

We went through this whole cycle of prompt engineering is a thing, it's not really a thing, fine-tuning is...

我们经历了整个提示工程周期是一件事，它不是真正的一件事，微调是......

Prompt really does matter, and a good PM, I do competitive analysis.

提示确实很重要，一个好的产品经理，我会进行竞争分析。

I use the same input and look at different GPT or ChatGPT.

我使用相同的输入并查看不同的 GPT 或 ChatGPT。

I look at the GPT Store version, I look at other PM tools that do this and I look at mine.

我查看了 GPT 商店版本，查看了执行此操作的其他 PM 工具，然后查看了我的版本。

I think mine is actually better.

我认为我的实际上更好。

Claire Vo: And then I'm getting into a mode now where I may do some model experimentation and tuning behind the scenes, so it might not be OpenAI, it may be other things, but it matters.

Claire Vo：然后我现在进入一种模式，我可以在幕后进行一些模型实验和调整，所以它可能不是 OpenAI，它可能是其他东西，但这很重要。

The instructions matter, the context matters for the quality of the output is something that I would say when building these kinds of products.

说明很重要，上下文对于输出的质量很重要，这是我在构建此类产品时会说的。

I think the other thing is there is no solution right now for monetization.

我认为另一件事是目前还没有货币化的解决方案。

Knock on wood, open it and we'll figure it out.

敲开木头，打开它，我们就能找到答案。

If I had more time, maybe I would create a platform out of what I've created for ChatGPT to let other people monetize their GPTs and add on capabilities.

如果我有更多时间，也许我会用我为 ChatGPT 创建的平台创建一个平台，让其他人通过他们的 GPT 货币化并添加功能。

But it's not out of the box yet for folks.

但对于人们来说，它还没有开箱即用。

There's a lot of work that I had to do to get it from here to there.

为了把它从这里带到那里，我必须做很多工作。

Lenny: Are you making real money with this thing?

莱尼：你用这个东西赚到了真正的钱吗？

And is it an idea that this becomes the thing you do someday maybe long term?

这是否会成为你有一天或者长期做的事情？

Claire Vo: My original goal, and I said this out on X, my original goal is I just want to buy a nice glass of wine a week.

Claire Vo：我最初的目标，我在X上说过，我最初的目标是我只想每周买一杯好酒。

That was my goal.

这就是我的目标。

I could buy cases of wine now.

我现在可以买几箱酒了。

This is very exciting for me.

这对我来说非常令人兴奋。

It's making what I would consider real money.

它正在赚我认为的真钱。

Is it a venture scale thing?

这是一个风险规模的事情吗？

No. Does it need to be?

不，有必要吗？

No. I have a goal around my kids' education expenses.

不，我对孩子的教育费用有一个目标。

I would love for this to cover a little bit.

我希望能对此进行一些介绍。

I have a ambitious but not audacious goal for ChatPRD.

我对 ChatPRD 有一个雄心勃勃但并不大胆的目标。

Claire Vo: The other goal that I have, which is, let's put monetization aside, is this is my joy space, zone of genius joy space.

Claire Vo：我的另一个目标是，让我们把货币化放在一边，这是我的快乐空间，天才快乐空间的区域。

And my goal with ChatPRD is it has to be a hundred percent fun for me.

我对 ChatPRD 的目标是它必须对我来说百分百有趣。

This is my hobby, so I'm not doing anything that makes it not fun.

这是我的爱好，所以我不会做任何让它变得不有趣的事情。

It is a pure bliss space for me.

这对我来说是一个纯粹的幸福空间。

I get to code on the weekends, I get to do customer support at night, and I get to build things that I would use.

我在周末编写代码，在晚上进行客户支持，并构建我会使用的东西。

I get to learn new technologies.

我开始学习新技术。

I want to keep it in that space because it provides a lot of joy for me.

我想把它保留在那个空间里，因为它给我带来了很多快乐。

Put money aside, I just want it to be fun.

把钱放在一边，我只是想让它变得有趣。

Lenny: Love that.

莱尼：喜欢这个。

Okay, so some people listening to this, especially PMs, may be like, "Claire, what the hell are you doing?

好吧，有些人听了这个，尤其是产品经理，可能会说，“克莱尔，你到底在做什么？

Are you going to replace product managers in a year or two?" This connects to something I've just generally been thinking about and that's come up a bunch, is just over time, which skills and jobs of a product manager will be greatly enhanced by AI and which will be completely replaced by AI, if any, so that people can understand which skills they should be investing in and which maybe are less important.

一两年后你会更换产品经理吗？”这与我一直在思考的事情有​​关，随着时间的推移，产品经理的哪些技能和工作将被人工智能大大增强，哪些技能和工作将被人工智能完全取代（如果有的话），以便人们能够了解他们应该投资哪些技能，哪些技能可能不太重要。

Lenny: I guess just broadly, do you have a sense of just here's skills that are going to continue to be incredibly important and AI will not take these skills and jobs off your plate?

莱尼：我想从广义上讲，您是否认为这些技能将继续变得极其重要，而人工智能不会将这些技能和工作从您的工作中夺走？

Versus, these are going to be the less important, AI will do these?

相比之下，这些都变得不那么重要了，AI会做这些吗？

Claire Vo: At the highest level, I tend to be very short-term pessimistic, although I'll frame that short-term pessimistic and very long-term optimistic.

Claire Vo：在最高层面上，我倾向于非常短期悲观，尽管我会框架短期悲观和非常长期乐观。

I am a big believer that technology has made society generally much more affluent, wealthier, happier, healthier.

我坚信技术使社会总体上更加富裕、更富裕、更快乐、更健康。

I am a big believer in technology and I am optimistic about its impact on the human race.

我是技术的坚定信仰者，我对技术对人类的影响持乐观态度。

There are lots of things that are not going well, but I really do believe that innovation and technology, I'm excited for my kid's future.

有很多事情进展不顺利，但我确实相信创新和技术，我为我孩子的未来感到兴奋。

I'm not afraid of it.

我不怕它。

Claire Vo: Now, that being said, I am of the mind excitedly that this is going to change stuff in companies incredibly quickly.

Claire Vo：话虽这么说，我很兴奋地认为这将非常快地改变公司的情况。

And part of building ChatPRD is I hold myself to the bar as a technology leader, I need to be leading the league on understanding what this can disrupt, using these tools to make a better team, and actually shifting the size and shape of my organization in response to the technology around us.

构建 ChatPRD 的一部分是，我坚持作为技术领导者的标准，我需要领导联盟了解这会带来什么破坏，使用这些工具来组建更好的团队，并根据我们周围的技术实际改变我的组织的规模和形态。

Is it going to eliminate PMs next year?

明年会取消PM吗？

Probably not.

可能不会。

Are the ratios between PMs and other teams going to shift over time?

PM 和其他团队之间的比例会随着时间的推移而发生变化吗？

Yes.

是的。

Are the skills required going to shift?

所需的技能是否会发生变化？

Yes.

是的。

Could they shift much faster than we all anticipate?

它们的转变速度会比我们预期的快得多吗？

Probably.

大概。

I think there's a lot of change coming and I want to be prepared for it.

我认为将会发生很多变化，我想为此做好准备。

Claire Vo: Now, what do I think this replaces and what does it not replace?

Claire Vo：现在，我认为它会取代什么，不会取代什么？

I was reflecting on this question and communication, lowercase C, I feel like is one of the places that's going to be replaced.

我在反思这个问题和交流，小写的C，我感觉是要被替换的地方之一。

And I call it lowercase C.

我称之为小写 C。

It's the functional trading of information that allows other people to do jobs.

信息的功能性交易让其他人能够完成工作。

I think that these language models and these tools are really good synthesizing information, putting together communication, and can coordinate who that communication goes to and get it out in many modalities of content.

我认为这些语言模型和这些工具非常适合综合信息、整合沟通，并且可以协调沟通的对象并以多种内容形式将其传达出去。

Claire Vo: And so I'm really thinking about the PM as the keeper of cross-functional relationships and communication is really, I think, potentially going to change.

Claire Vo：所以我真的认为，PM 作为跨职能关系和沟通的守护者，我认为，确实可能会发生变化。

Now, but capital C communication of are you influential?

现在，但是资本C的传播你有影响力吗？

Are you convincing?

你有说服力吗？

Are you bold?

你大胆吗？

Can you get this system of humans to follow you down a path?

你能让这个人类系统跟随你走一条路吗？

That's, I think, going to be much harder to replace, and so I'm thinking about the edges of communication and where they'll change and what they won't.

我认为，这将更难以取代，因此我正在考虑沟通的边缘以及它们将在哪里改变以及不会改变什么。

Lenny: That's really interesting.

莱尼：这真的很有趣。

I did a little poll on Twitter asking people of between communication, execution, strategy, and product sense, which skills are most likely to be basically taken over by AI.

我在 Twitter 上做了一个小调查，询问人们在沟通、执行、战略和产品意识之间，哪些技能最有可能基本上被人工智能接管。

And communication was number one, by far.

到目前为止，沟通是第一位的。

I have a contrarian perspective.

我有一个相反的观点。

And strategy was the least voted.

而战略是得票最少的。

I feel like, so strategy work is essentially, "Here's everything we know about the world and competitors and the market and our advantages.

我觉得，战略工作本质上是，“这是我们所知道的关于世界、竞争对手、市场和我们的优势的一切。

Here's a plan to win in the market essentially." I feel like that's what AI is incredibly good at.

这是一个本质上赢得市场的计划。”我觉得这就是人工智能非常擅长的事情。

Claire Vo: I agree with you.

克莱尔·沃：我同意你的观点。

I totally agree with you.

我完全同意你的观点。

I think, and again this comes to synthesis, good decision-making, and communication, if you can synthesize, distill it into a plan and communicate that plan, I found these tools exceptional.

我认为，这又涉及到综合、良好的决策和沟通，如果你能够综合、将其提炼成计划并传达该计划，我发现这些工具非常出色。

Use ChatPRD and give it a try.

使用 ChatPRD 并尝试一下。

Claire Vo: Now, I think it's the human aspect though of boldness, seeing the future in a way that a thing trained on priors cannot.

Claire Vo：现在，我认为这是人性的勇敢，以一种受先验训练的事物无法看到的方式看到未来。

Those things I still think, and then charisma and attracting all those things to actually make the thing happen are pretty hard to replicate, which is why I love using ChatPRD.

我仍然认为这些事情，然后魅力和吸引所有这些事情来真正实现事情是很难复制的，这就是为什么我喜欢使用 ChatPRD。

I'm not going to come up with the most genius way to do data export for Snowflake for some...

我不会想出最天才的方法来为某些人导出 Snowflake 的数据......

That is a solved area that we should just scaffold up.

这是一个已经解决的领域，我们应该搭建起来。

I should customize it to what we do, and then we should ship it.

我应该根据我们的工作定制它，然后我们应该发货。

That is not a place where my magic skills as a human are going to impact.

那不是我作为人类的魔法技能会影响的地方。

Claire Vo: But I don't think a lot of PMs see it that way.

Claire Vo：但我认为很多产品经理并不这么认为。

I think there's this real identity shift that's going to happen where PMs think that their value is coming from their ideas that they manifest into the world and how they individually manifest them.

我认为，当项目经理认为他们的价值来自于他们向世界体现的想法以及他们个人如何体现这些想法时，就会发生这种真正的身份转变。

And I think we're going to shift to, are you building the right stuff?

我认为我们将转向，你正在构建正确的东西吗？

Are you building it quickly?

您正在快速构建它吗？

And is it delivering?

它正在交付吗？

No matter what the tool chain is.

不管工具链是什么。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

I think your point about getting buy-in and getting everyone aligned, I don't know how an AI bot does that unless everybody's got their own little bot and they're all talking to each other.

我认为你关于获得支持并让每个人保持一致的观点，我不知道人工智能机器人是如何做到这一点的，除非每个人都有自己的小机器人并且他们都在互相交谈。

Lenny: We're in.

莱尼：我们进来了。

I'll this a little higher.

我会把这个调高一点。

Lenny: I actually made this list.

莱尼：实际上我列出了这个清单。

I feel like this could be the entire podcast, but I made it a quick list of, "Here's the jobs of a PM." And it's interesting.

我觉得这可能是整个播客，但我快速列出了“这是产品经理的工作”。这很有趣。

I don't know if this is really a question, but it's just interesting to think about which of these will some ChatPRD maybe do in the future.

我不知道这是否真的是一个问题，但考虑一下 ChatPRD 将来可能会做其中哪些事情很有趣。

What does the job feel?

工作感觉如何？

You're writing PRDS, you're setting goals, proposing a roadmap, aligning a team behind a roadmap, developing a strategy, developing a vision, communicating timelines, finding blockers, and unblocking people, getting buy-in from up on high, getting budget resources for your team, giving feedback on product and design.

你正在编写 PRDS，你正在设定目标，提出路线图，在路线图后调整团队，制定战略，制定愿景，沟通时间表，寻找阻碍因素，并解除阻碍，获得高层的支持，为你的团队获得预算资源，提供有关产品和设计的反馈。

Those are just some of the day-to-day jobs.

这些只是一些日常工作。

I'm so curious just which of these AI can actually just do and not have to worry about it.

我很好奇这些人工智能中的哪一个实际上可以做到而不用担心。

Claire Vo: I think a lot of them AI can do.

Claire Vo：我认为人工智能可以做很多事情。

And so the question is, which of them do you want to hand the keys to an AI tool?

那么问题来了，你想把人工智能工具的钥匙交给他们中的哪一个呢？

And which of them are going to be much more valuable as a tool that an individual or a team's intellect can use to do a better, faster, higher impact job?

作为个人或团队的智慧可以用来做得更好、更快、影响更大的工作的工具，其中哪一个更有价值？

Claire Vo: Again, I believe in technology and I think this stuff, what's interesting about this moment right now is every week I see something that I would not have in a million years thought was possible three years ago.

Claire Vo：再说一次，我相信技术，我认为这件事，现在有趣的是，每周我都会看到一些三年前在一百万年内不可能实现的事情。

Every week, something new comes out where it just changes my mind of what's possible.

每周都会有新的事情出现，它只会改变我对可能性的看法。

I believe all of those are 80% good functionally tractable.

我相信所有这些在功能上都有 80% 的良好可处理性。

The question is, is 80% good functionally tractable the best way to do that?

问题是，80% 的良好功能是实现这一目标的最佳方法吗？

Or can we take a certain type of person with a certain skill set backed by a purpose-built toolkit and make it 3X better, 4X better, 10X better?

或者我们可以让具有特定技能的特定类型的人在专门的工具包的支持下，使其变得更好 3 倍、4 倍、10 倍吗？

I think that's the more interesting question.

我认为这是更有趣的问题。

Lenny: I think on the point of amazing things are happening every day, we had SpaceX launched the Starship and it was barely mentioned anywhere.

莱尼：我认为每天都会发生令人惊奇的事情，我们让 SpaceX 发射了星际飞船，但几乎没有任何地方提到它。

We have the spaceship that could take us to Mars and, "Meh, we don't need to talk about that."

我们拥有可以带我们前往火星的宇宙飞船，“嗯，我们不需要谈论这个。”

Claire Vo: We get the kids up and stream it on YouTube.

Claire Vo：我们让孩子们起床并在 YouTube 上播放。

Claire Vo: It's magic.

克莱尔·沃：这很神奇。

We live in this magic time.

我们生活在这个神奇的时代。

I think it's so fascinating.

我觉得这太迷人了。

But I agree, we're getting spoiled by innovation.

但我同意，我们正在被创新宠坏。

Lenny: You said that there's this ratio that might shift with product managers, engineers.

Lenny：你说这个比例可能会随着产品经理、工程师的变化而改变。

I'm curious which ratio, because engineers are also getting more efficient, and so it's interesting if the ratios will be consistent as engineers become more efficient, PMs get it more efficient.

我很好奇哪个比率​​，因为工程师也变得更有效率，所以有趣的是，如果随着工程师变得更有效率，比率将保持一致，PM 也会变得更有效率。

Claire Vo: I wonder if whole roles get eliminated and replaced, and then ratios aren't even the right way to think about things.

Claire Vo：我想知道是否整个角色都会被消除和替换，然后比率甚至不是思考事物的正确方式。

There's the ratio of this PM role to this many, one PM to seven to 10 engineers or one EM to...

这个 PM 角色与这么多工程师的比例是，一名 PM 与七到 10 名工程师，或者一名 EM 与......

There's those ratios.

有这些比例。

Claire Vo: I also think there's going to be this interesting shift of as a manager, as a leader, how you allocate budget against tools and people I also think is going to shift.

Claire Vo：我还认为，作为经理、领导者，如何根据工具和人员分配预算，我认为也会发生这种有趣的转变。

And I saw something where somebody said that every role that they got asked to open, the team had to spend a week trying to automate it before they were allowed to open the JD.

我看到有人说，他们被要求开设的每个职位，团队都必须花一周的时间尝试实现自动化，然后才被允许开设 JD。

It's just this very interesting...

这只是非常有趣...

In my mind people, think that's scary and it's going to reduce jobs.

在我看来，人们认为这很可怕，而且会减少工作岗位。

Yes, and I do think there's also potentially other jobs that open up that can become very interesting.

是的，我确实认为还有其他可能会变得非常有趣的工作机会。

Claire Vo: And so I don't know how it's going to pencil out.

Claire Vo：所以我不知道它会如何完成。

I really don't.

我真的不知道。

What I do know is things are going to change and I, as a leader and a person that cares for people's long-term careers, want to be much more forward-thinking than close my eyes to what the possible maybe dramatic changes are in our industry.

我所知道的是，事情将会发生变化，作为一个领导者和一个关心人们长期职业生涯的人，我希望更具前瞻性，而不是对我们行业可能发生的巨大变化视而不见。

I'm thinking about it, I'm experimenting with things, and I'm hoping that in our team in LaunchDarkly we're leading from the front here as opposed to on our back foot.

我正在思考这个问题，我正在尝试一些事情，我希望在 LaunchDarkly 的团队中，我们能够处于领先地位，而不是落后。

Lenny: I'm thinking many people listening here are like, "Okay, I need to get on top of this.

莱尼：我想很多在这里听的人都会说，“好吧，我需要解决这个问题。

I need to stay ahead.

我需要保持领先。

I want to follow Claire's lead." Is your advice simply create GPTs, play with ChatGPT?

我想追随克莱尔的脚步。”您的建议是简单地创建 GPT，然后使用 ChatGPT 吗？

Is there anything else there to help people?

还有什么可以帮助人们的吗？

Claire Vo: I also think PMs need to be thinking about building product skills particularly around these non-deterministic products.

Claire Vo：我还认为产品经理需要考虑培养产品技能，特别是围绕这些非确定性产品。

It's been .

它已经 。

Part of why I built ChatPRD is not just to stress test how these sorts of things are going to change the product function.

我构建 ChatPRD 的部分原因不仅仅是为了压力测试这些事情将如何改变产品功能。

It's literally, this is a new type of product built by a new type of technology and it's moving very fast.

从字面上看，这是一种采用新型技术构建的新型产品，而且发展速度非常快。

And learning how to build these kinds of products, if you can do that, I just think back to when mobile happened, if you're a PM that jumped on mobile, you had the pick of the litter when it came to jobs in very interesting startups.

学习如何构建这些类型的产品，如果你能做到这一点，我只想回想一下移动出现的时候，如果你是一名热衷于移动的产品经理，那么当你在非常有趣的初创公司工作时，你就可以选择。

Claire Vo: And so I think we're in the same moment here where, if you can ratchet down and specialize and learn a new technology, you actually can get into very interesting positions.

Claire Vo：所以我认为我们正处于同一时刻，如果你能逐步专注并学习新技术，你实际上可以进入非常有趣的职位。

Those are both of my motivations on ChatPRD, is understand how it impacts the function that I lead, but also understand how to build a great product with these underlying technologies that are just much different than the technologies that I personally built on before.

这些都是我使用 ChatPRD 的动机，一方面是了解它如何影响我领导的功能，另一方面也是了解如何使用这些底层技术构建出色的产品，这些技术与我个人之前构建的技术有很大不同。

Lenny: And so for someone, let's say, not super engineering-oriented, I guess how do you recommend people on your team explore this sort of thing?

莱尼：对于一个不是超级工程导向的人来说，我想你如何建议你团队中的人探索这类事情？

Is it ?

是吗？

Claire Vo: Yeah.

克莱尔·沃：是的。

I do think studying products that are out there is quite interesting.

我确实认为研究现有的产品非常有趣。

I love this idea of doing outside-in product tear-downs.

我喜欢这种从外到内拆解产品的想法。

What is good about this?

这有什么好处呢？

What is bad about this?

这有什么不好呢？

How would I have written the PRD here?

我在这里该如何写 PRD？

What would I be measuring?

我要测量什么？

How would I think about error states?

我会如何考虑错误状态？

How would I think about if this is a great product, a good product, or an okay product?

我会如何思考这是一个很棒的产品、一个好产品还是一个还可以的产品？

I do think doing that sort of crit on an external product can be a really accessible way to start to stress test your own skills around this and figure out where there are gaps.

我确实认为对外部产品进行这种批评可能是一种真正可行的方法，可以开始对自己的技能进行压力测试并找出差距。

Claire Vo: That's one thing I think you can do.

Claire Vo：这是我认为你可以做的一件事。

Two, I think there's a lot of no-code, low-code stuff you can play with.

第二，我认为有很多无代码、低代码的东西你可以玩。

Even if you can't put your hands on keyboard and write code, you can certainly stitch together things and try some no-code tools.

即使您无法把手放在键盘上编写代码，您当然也可以将东西拼接在一起并尝试一些无代码工具。

That's another way to do it.

这是另一种方法。

The other thing is find where it's fun.

另一件事是找到有趣的地方。

I think how fun is Midjourney?

我觉得中途有多好玩？

How fun are some of these more creative tools?

这些更具创意的工具有多有趣？

And so find where there's something fun and build art out of it as a mechanism for learning.

因此，找到有趣的地方，并从中构建艺术作为学习机制。

It doesn't always have to be commercially driven.

它并不总是必须由商业驱动。

It doesn't have to be part of work.

它不一定是工作的一部分。

It can just be find a space that you're personally interested in and play with what's out there.

它可以只是找到一个您个人感兴趣的空间并尝试那里的东西。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

One last question about ChatPRD.

最后一个问题是关于 ChatPRD 的。

With Copilot, there's all these stats.

有了 Copilot，就有了所有这些统计数据。

It's making engineers 50% more efficient, whatever percentage.

它使工程师的效率提高了 50%，无论百分比如何。

Do you have any sense of efficiency gains so far with ChatPRD?

到目前为止，您是否感觉到 ChatPRD 提高了效率？

Claire Vo: I have qualitative feedback from product managers who have used ChatPRD, who have said, "This has saved me dozens of hours I would've spent on writing documents." And another person said, "I am a single PM on a team that's growing and I don't think we're going to have to hire another PM now." There's the people, there's both the individual aspect and the hours aspect, which is it's helping individuals PMs get higher leverage across a broad engineering or building team, and that it's helping them spend their time more effectively.

Claire Vo：我从使用过 ChatPRD 的产品经理那里得到了定性反馈，他们说：“这为我节省了原本花在编写文档上的数十个小时。”另一个人说：“我是一个正在成长的团队中的一名产品经理，我认为我们现在不需要再聘请另一位产品经理。”有人员，有个人方面和时间方面，这有助于个人产品经理在广泛的工程或建筑团队中获得更高的影响力，并且帮助他们更有效地利用时间。

Lenny: Many people don't want to hear that they don't need to hire a PM.

Lenny：很多人不想听到他们不需要聘请产品经理。

There's many people looking for jobs right now.

现在有很多人在找工作。

Claire Vo: It's true, but we can't...

克莱尔·沃：这是真的，但我们不能……

I think we saw this in the last couple of years.

我想我们在过去几年里看到了这一点。

Inefficiently hiring and building unsustainable costs into a company leads no one to success.

低效的招聘和为公司增加不可持续的成本不会导致任何人成功。

And if that's a lesson that I can teach anybody, it's sustainability in organizations is the responsibility of a leader.

如果这是我可以教给任何人的一课，那就是组织的可持续性是领导者的责任。

Yes, I would love to give everybody positions.

是的，我很乐意给每个人职位。

There are not positions to have.

没有职位可做。

And the best I can do for the people in the team is be really responsible and really thoughtful about that because that helps me grow their careers and helps me sustain their careers long-term.

我能为团队中的人们做的最好的事情就是真正负责并真正考虑到这一点，因为这有助于我发展他们的职业生涯并帮助我长期维持他们的职业生涯。

Claire Vo: It's incredibly complicated, but also on the flip side, this is a very small startup.

Claire Vo：这非常复杂，但另一方面，这是一家非常小的初创公司。

They can't afford another PM and they're extending their runway to build something transformational by not growing the team.

他们无力承担另一位产品经理的费用，而且他们正在通过不扩大团队来扩展自己的跑道以构建变革性的东西。

And so, yes, people their teams and have these jobs and startups can't afford it, and they still have great things to do in the world.

因此，是的，人们拥有他们的团队并拥有这些工作，而初创公司负担不起，但他们在世界上仍然有伟大的事情要做。

Lenny: Great answer.

莱尼：很好的答案。

To start to wrap up our conversation, I have these two segments, Failure Corner and Contrarian Corner, and we can pick which corner you want to head to.

为了开始结束我们的谈话，我有这两个部分，失败角落和逆向角落，我们可以选择你想要前往的角落。

Would you like to share a story of your career where you failed and something you learned from that?

您想分享一下您职业生涯中失败的故事以及您从中学到的东西吗？

Or something you believe that most people don't believe?

或者你相信但大多数人不相信的事情？

Which corner sounds more interesting?

哪个角落听起来更有趣？

Lenny: I need some sound effects for these corners.

莱尼：我需要为这些角落添加一些音效。

Do share.

分享吧。

Claire Vo: I'm sharing this because you just released your podcast with Marty again.

Claire Vo：我分享这个是因为你刚刚再次发布了与 Marty 的播客。

And I'm a sales-led product apologist unabashedly, which is, I think that it is okay to listen to the market and to be commercially oriented in products in ways that probably would make some folks in some types of product organizations squirm a little bit.

我是一个毫不掩饰的以销售为主导的产品辩护者，也就是说，我认为倾听市场的声音并以商业为导向的产品是可以的，这可能会让某些类型的产品组织中的一些人有点局促不安。

And the reason why I believe this is I think there are tremendous businesses built on sales-led motions.

我之所以相信这一点，是因为我认为有大量的业务建立在以销售为主导的动议之上。

And I disagree with the fact that that means you do not care for the craft or the experience of users.

我不同意这样的事实，即这意味着你不关心用户的工艺或体验。

I think it can be the best of both worlds.

我认为这可能是两全其美的。

Claire Vo: I love sales.

Claire Vo：我喜欢销售。

I say if I was not in this role, put me on a quota and make me enterprise West.

我说，如果我不担任这个角色，就给我分配配额，让我进军西部。

I love to sell, but I think product teams, this opposition we have industry-wide with sales-led I'm not convinced is healthy in every organization.

我喜欢销售，但我认为产品团队，我们在整个行业范围内以销售为主导的反对意见，我不相信在每个组织中都是健康的。

And I was listening to the podcast and I think you all were talking about, you said, "SAP is like this.

我在听播客，我想你们都在谈论，“SAP 就是这样。

And who wants to be SAP?" Man alive.

谁想成为 SAP？”人还活着。

There are a lot of companies out there that would love to be SAP, now with a better product, with better experience, with more love from the industry maybe.

有很多公司都想成为 SAP，现在拥有更好的产品、更好的体验，也许还受到业界更多的喜爱。

But what a powerhouse company.

但这是一家多么强大的公司啊。

And I think we as PMs turn our nose up to powerhouse companies too often because we want companies to be product-led, not sales-led.

我认为，作为产品经理，我们经常对实力雄厚的公司嗤之以鼻，因为我们希望公司以产品为主导，而不是以销售为主导。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I'm going to not go deeper into this topic because I don't want to be speaking on behalf of Marty's perspective, but there's so much debate that came out of that episode and I love that it trickles to more opinions being shared about ways product can work.

我不会更深入地讨论这个话题，因为我不想代表马蒂的观点发言，但是这一集引发了很多争论，我喜欢它逐渐引发更多关于产品运作方式的观点。

Lenny: I guess, just to understand your takeaway here, is sales-led companies can be awesome.

莱尼：我想，只是为了理解你的要点，以销售为主导的公司可以很棒。

They can build amazing businesses, and it can be great to be a PM at a company like that.

他们可以建立令人惊叹的企业，在这样的公司担任产品经理真是太棒了。

Claire Vo: Yeah, and they can build great products.

Claire Vo：是的，他们可以打造出色的产品。

Lenny: Great.

莱尼：太好了。

Claire, is there anything else that you want to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

克莱尔，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？

Claire Vo: I will say, because we've been talking a lot about AI and replacing PMs, I love to sell.

Claire Vo：我会说，因为我们一直在谈论人工智能和更换产品经理，所以我喜欢销售。

I love to help people get jobs, so if there are ways that I can help people find great fit companies, it's one of the things that I get a lot of energy out of.

我喜欢帮助人们找到工作，所以如果有办法帮助人们找到合适的公司，这就是我从中获得大量精力的事情之一。

I just want to say that in the world.

我只想对这个世界说一句。

It's something that sparks a lot of joy.

这是一件能激发很多欢乐的事情。

I get a lot of it inbound, "Can you help me get in here?

我收到很多这样的信息，“你能帮我进去吗？

Can you help me get there?" But if there is a tractable way that I can help you get to a connected to a company or a role that you think is great for you, that's fun for me and I'm totally open to it.

你能帮我去那里吗？”但是，如果我可以通过一种容易处理的方式帮助您与您认为最适合您的公司或职位建立联系，那对我来说很有趣，并且我对此完全持开放态度。

Lenny: How would people reach out to you to try to help you get them ?

莱尼：人们会如何联系你来帮助你得到他们？

Claire Vo: I am, of course, on LinkedIn.

Claire Vo：当然，我在 LinkedIn 上。

I'm on X at ClaireVo, all one word.

我在 ClaireVo 的 X 频道，一言以蔽之。

And then if you really want to go into the archives, I have a very fabulous TikTok where I'm ChiefProductOfficer.

如果你真的想查阅档案，我有一个非常棒的 TikTok，我是首席产品官。

It's all one word.

都是一个字。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

We'll link to all these in the show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到所有这些内容。

And we will refresh these two facts at the end of the podcast anyway, because I always ask this anyway.

无论如何，我们将在播客结束时刷新这两个事实，因为无论如何我总是问这个。

Before we do that, welcome to our very exciting lightning round.

在此之前，欢迎来到我们非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

第一个问题，您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Claire Vo: High Growth Handbook I love, and I like Scaling People.

Claire Vo：我喜欢《高成长手册》，也喜欢《规模化人才》。

These are two books that the reason why I recommend them to people is because they have solid playbook answers to 80%, 90% of everyday leadership scaling people questions.

我之所以向人们推荐这两本书，是因为它们对 80%、90% 的日常领导力扩展人员问题提供了可靠的答案。

And so they're just great reference books for what I think great leadership inside startups can look like, and they solve some of the things that you don't need to solve novel-ly.

因此，它们只是很好的参考书，让我了解初创公司内部的优秀领导力是什么样子，并且它们解决了一些你不需要新颖地解决的问题。

And then one on the fiction side that I've been recommending is Circe, which is a retelling of Circe's story from her perspective.

我一直推荐的小说是《喀耳刻》，它从喀耳刻的角度重述了她的故事。

It's a great read, and everybody I've recommended it to really loves it.

这是一本很棒的书，我推荐给它的每个人都非常喜欢它。

Claire Vo: No, Circe from the Odyssey.

克莱尔·沃：不，《奥德赛》中的喀耳刻。

Odysseus .

奥德修斯。

She turns men into pigs.

她把男人变成猪。

Claire Vo: It's great.

克莱尔·沃：太棒了。

My kids are very into Greek mythology, so this is me meeting them on my side.

我的孩子们非常喜欢希腊神话，所以这是我站在我这边与他们见面。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

The first two books are both Straight Press.

前两本书都是直出版社的。

Shout out to Straight Press.

向直按大喊大叫。

Lenny: And I have both books in the back there, and my laptop's actually sitting on Scaling People.

莱尼：我的两本书都在后面，我的笔记本电脑实际上就放在《Scaling People》上。

Lenny: Next question.

莱尼：下一个问题。

What is a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Claire Vo: I have kids, so I don't get to go see movies.

Claire Vo：我有孩子，所以我不能去看电影。

Movies are, that's an adventure.

电影就是，那是一场冒险。

It's basically a vacation.

基本上就是一个假期。

I saw Poor Things, which if you like capital W weird capital A art, highly recommend Poor Things.

我看了《Poor Things》，如果你喜欢大写W奇怪的大写A艺术，强烈推荐《Poor Things》。

The show that I recommend to people, I love Mythic Quest.

我向人们推荐的节目，我喜欢《Mythic Quest》。

Everybody references Silicon Valley, but Mythic Quest gets at some of, I was in gaming once, gets at some of my experiences in the technology organizations.

每个人都提到硅谷，但《Mythic Quest》了解了一些，我曾经玩过游戏，了解了我在技术组织中的一些经验。

It's got a technical female lead and think it's quite funny.

它有一个技术性的女主角，我认为这很有趣。

I like Mythic Quest.

我喜欢神话任务。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates?

莱尼：你有最喜欢问候选人的面试问题吗？

Claire Vo: I like to ask candidates how they would improve our business model.

Claire Vo：我想问候选人他们将如何改进我们的商业模式。

I think so many PMs come in with a point of view of the product and the target market but don't actually understand the underlying mechanisms of how we make money and what our unit economics are and how that could be improved.

我认为很多产品经理带着对产品和目标市场的观点进来，但实际上并不了解我们如何赚钱、我们的单位经济效益是什么以及如何改进的基本机制。

And the candidates that do come in and have a strong point of view on business model often are pretty successful in our organization.

那些进来并对商业模式有强烈观点的候选人通常在我们的组织中非常成功。

Lenny: And what do you look for in a good answer that's, "Oh wow, this candidate's great?"

莱尼：你在“哦哇，这个候选人太棒了”这个好的答案中寻找什么？

Claire Vo: It's thinking along the chain of value from how do we identify people in the market?

Claire Vo：沿着价值链思考我们如何识别市场上的人？

What does our pricing model look like?

我们的定价模型是什么样的？

What could they hypothesize our underlying unit economics or cogs are?

他们可以假设我们的基本单位经济学或齿轮是什么？

And then where are their points of leverage along that whole funnel?

那么他们在整个渠道中的杠杆点在哪里呢？

It's really, do they have a mental model for thinking about a business model?

真的，他们有思考商业模式的心智模型吗？

Have they thought at all about how we make money, either top line or margin?

他们有没有想过我们如何赚钱，无论是收入还是利润？

And then can they identify places where they might improve it?

然后他们能找出可以改进的地方吗？

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Basically understanding the business really well.

基本上对业务非常了解。

Great.

伟大的。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really like?

莱尼：你最近发现有一款你真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Claire Vo: Okay, I'm going to make you laugh because you've gotten all these cars, right?

克莱尔·沃：好吧，我会让你笑，因为你已经拥有了所有这些车，对吧？

Lenny: Yeah, I have such expensive cars.

莱尼：是啊，我有这么贵的车。

Claire Vo: You've got expensive cars.

克莱尔·沃：你有昂贵的汽车。

It's not new, I love my minivan.

这不是什么新鲜事，我喜欢我的小型货车。

I am a big fan of my minivan.

我是我的小型货车的忠实粉丝。

As my friend says, "It's like driving around your living room." And when you have two kids, you know what I want to do?

正如我的朋友所说，“这就像在你的客厅里开车一样。”当你有两个孩子时，你知道我想做什么吗？

I just want to drive around my living room, Bluey included.

我只想开车在我的客厅里转转，包括 Bluey。

And so no Rivian, no Mercedes-Benz, but I really love my Pacifica.

因此，没有 Rivian，没有梅赛德斯-奔驰，但我真的很喜欢我的 Pacifica。

Lenny: Pacifica?

莱尼：帕西菲卡？

Okay, I was going to ask.

好吧，我正想问呢。

Claire Vo: But the actual car product that I really love, I love Waymo.

Claire Vo：但我真正喜欢的实际汽车产品是 Waymo。

We're in San Francisco, we've got these autonomous vehicles.

我们在旧金山，我们有这些自动驾驶汽车。

It is, top to bottom, just a lovely product experience from the app to when it shows up, the sound design is great, the cars are comfortable, the displays in the car are great.

从上到下，从应用程序到出现，这都是一种可爱的产品体验，声音设计很棒，汽车很舒适，车内的显示屏也很棒。

It is, now every time a tourist comes in, a friend comes in to visit San Francisco, I make them take a round-trip ride in a robot car.

现在，每次有游客进来，有朋友来旧金山旅游，我都会让他们乘坐机器人汽车来回。

And then even I've had a customer service experience with the Waymo team where my friend left an iPhone and and customer experience was great, 24-hour service.

甚至我也有过 Waymo 团队的客户服务体验，我的朋友留下了一部 iPhone，客户体验非常棒，24 小时服务。

Top to bottom, great product design, great service design.

从上到下，出色的产品设计，出色的服务设计。

Lenny: I just got into Waymo actually in the wait list, and so I'm excited to actually try it.

Lenny：我刚刚进入 Waymo，实际上是在等待名单中，所以我很高兴能真正尝试一下。

I was actually treated as press early on to ride in a Waymo with a person from the company, just to experience it.

事实上，我很早就被当作媒体对待，和公司的一个人一起乘坐 Waymo，只是为了体验一下。

And then I never got access to it after.

然后我就再也没有机会访问它。

Now, I finally can try it.

现在，我终于可以尝试一下了。

Claire Vo: Enjoy.

克莱尔·沃：享受吧。

It's so nice.

真是太好了。

It's my preferred mode of travel.

这是我首选的旅行方式。

Lenny: The future.

莱尼：未来。

We've talked about a lot of ways the world is changing.

我们已经讨论了世界正在改变的很多方式。

That's another great example.

这是另一个很好的例子。

Lenny: Two questions to go.

莱尼：有两个问题要问。

Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to, share with friends or family they find useful in work or in life?

您是否有最喜欢的人生格言，并且经常与他们认为在工作或生活中有用的朋友或家人分享？

Claire Vo: Fast beats right.

Claire Vo：快节奏才是正确的。

Every time when debating between, do I noodle this for a thousand years and try to come to the perfect solution or do I make a decision and get executing and direction I have conviction on, I consistently see and believe that fast at the end of the day, wins.

每当在争论中，我是否应该思考这一问题一千年并尝试找到完美的解决方案，或者我是否做出决定并得到执行和我所坚信的方向时，我始终认为并相信，最终，快速获胜。

Fast beats right.

快节奏就对了。

Lenny: Final question.

莱尼：最后一个问题。

You mentioned TikTok.

你提到了 TikTok。

You put a bunch of awesome content out on TikTok.

你在 TikTok 上发布了很多很棒的内容。

Any advice, slash is there a tip you could share with someone that is trying to be successful on TikTok from your experience?

有什么建议吗？根据您的经验，您是否可以与那些试图在 TikTok 上取得成功的人分享一些建议？

Claire Vo: I've been neglecting my TikTok for a little bit with new job and winter with sick kids.

Claire Vo：由于新工作以及孩子生病的冬天，我已经暂时忽略了 TikTok。

This is my advice, and I think you know this, consistency drives audience growth, which is, when I was on TikTok posting every day, you would get followers and engagement and the algorithm would bless you.

这是我的建议，我想你知道这一点，一致性会推动受众增长，也就是说，当我每天在 TikTok 上发帖时，你会获得关注者和参与度，算法会祝福你。

And when you don't, you don't.

当你不这样做时，你就不会。

I think consistency in almost all things wins.

我认为几乎所有事情的一致性都会获胜。

Claire Vo: The other thing that I think is a really good advice for any quote-unquote creator of whatever scale, of whatever ambition, is I think thinking about content creation as documentation, not creative generation is really helpful.

Claire Vo：我认为对于任何规模、无论雄心勃勃的任何引用-不引用的创作者来说，另一件事是一个非常好的建议，我认为将内容创建视为文档，而不是创造性的生成是非常有帮助的。

I just like to talk about what I think about at work and I like to, an interesting meeting or interesting interaction, document why I thought that was interesting or what could be done better.

我只是喜欢谈论我在工作中的想法，我喜欢，一次有趣的会议或有趣的互动，记录为什么我认为这很有趣或者可以做得更好。

And that becomes the basis of a very natural flow of content for me.

这成为我内容非常自然流动的基础。

It's a tactic that's worked really well for me and helps me do stuff in my free time.

这种策略对我来说非常有效，可以帮助我在空闲时间做一些事情。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

It might be time to start exploring Instagram also with all this TikTok news.

也许是时候开始通过所有这些 TikTok 新闻来探索 Instagram 了。

Lenny: Claire, before we started this podcast, I asked you what your goal for this was, and it was to be helpful to people.

莱尼：克莱尔，在我们开始这个播客之前，我问你这个播客的目标是什么，是为了对人们有帮助。

I think we've 100% done that in so many different ways.

我认为我们已经通过多种不同的方式 100% 做到了这一点。

Thank you again so much for being here.

再次非常感谢您来到这里。

Lenny: Two final questions.

莱尼：最后两个问题。

We already covered these, but just to refresh people's memories, where can people find you online if they want to reach out?

我们已经介绍了这些内容，但只是为了让人们回忆一下，如果人们想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？

And then how can listeners be useful to you?

那么听众如何对你有用呢？

Claire Vo: LinkedIn, X, I'm ClaireVo, all one word.

Claire Vo：LinkedIn、X，我是 ClaireVo，全是一个词。

And then on TikTok, get me back into it.

然后在 TikTok 上，让我重新开始。

Give me a follow, maybe I'll start posting some of my excellent content.

关注我，也许我会开始发布一些优秀的内容。

But it's @ChiefProductOfficer.

但这是@ChiefProductOfficer。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

And then how can people be useful to you?

那么人们怎样才能对你有用呢？

Claire Vo: Help each other.

克莱尔·沃：互相帮助。

That's what I want the most, which is I do really see, it is a tough time in tech right now and there are a lot of people looking for jobs.

这是我最想要的，我确实看到，现在科技行业正处于艰难时期，有很多人在寻找工作。

One, I think help each other.

第一，我认为互相帮助。

And then the other thing that I really, if I could ask your audience anything, is if you have a job where your job is typing into an internet box to create products out of nothing, really acknowledge the privilege and joy of that job and try to have some fun because a lot of people want to sit where you're sitting.

然后，我真正要问的另一件事是，如果我可以问你的听众任何事情，那就是，如果你有一份工作，你的工作就是在互联网上打字，从无到有地创造产品，真正承认这份工作的特权和快乐，并尝试享受一些乐趣，因为很多人想坐在你坐的地方。

Have fun.

玩得开心。

Appreciate what you have.

珍惜你所拥有的。

Enjoy it.

好好享受。

Enjoy each other.

彼此享受。

Lenny: Great and important advice to leave people with.

莱尼：给人们留下非常重要的建议。

Claire, thank you so much for being here.

克莱尔，非常感谢你来到这里。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

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如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。