Lessons from scaling Stripe | Claire Hughes Johnson (ex-COO of Stripe)
Claire Hughes Johnson: What I say to people at Stripe...
Claire Hughes Johnson：我对 Stripe 的员工说的话......
In our onboarding, I used to run a session.
在我们的入职培训中，我曾经举办过一次会议。
I was like, "If you're not sure who the decision maker is, one, it's probably you.
我当时想，“如果你不确定决策者是谁，那么可能就是你。
And I'd rather you act that way than not because you're going to like slow the whole company down.
我宁愿你这样做，而不是不这样做，因为你会喜欢放慢整个公司的速度。
Follow a process and get it done, and don't forget to actually make a decision.
遵循流程并完成它，并且不要忘记实际做出决定。
And if you don't know who the decision maker is and you're worried it's not, you just ask.
如果您不知道决策者是谁，并且您担心决策者不是，您只需询问即可。
Don't get stuck." Too many people get stuck and it makes your work terrible, right?
别被卡住了。”太多人陷入困境，这会让你的工作变得很糟糕，对吗？
What do we all care about?
我们都关心什么？
Progress, impact, momentum.
进步、影响、动力。
If anything I would say about advice to people generally is be a force for positive momentum and it will be actually a real career maker.
如果说我对人们的建议有什么想说的话，那就是成为积极动力的力量，这实际上将是一个真正的职业创造者。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。
Today, my guest is Claire Hughes Johnson.
今天，我的客人是克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊。
Claire was most recently chief operating officer at Stripe for the past seven years, where she helped scale them from a small startup to the legendary company that it is today.
克莱尔在过去七年里担任 Stripe 的首席运营官，帮助他们从一家小型初创公司发展成为今天的传奇公司。
Before that, she spent about 10 years at Google where she was VP of self-driving cars, VP of global online sales, director of sales and ops for Gmail, YouTube, Google Apps, and AdWords.
在此之前，她在 Google 工作了大约 10 年，担任自动驾驶汽车副总裁、全球在线销售副总裁、Gmail、YouTube、Google Apps 和 AdWords 的销售和运营总监。
Before that, she was in politics.
在此之前，她曾涉足政界。
She's also on the board of HubSpot and the Atlantic.
她还是 HubSpot 和 Atlantic 的董事会成员。
And this week, she's releasing an incredible book called Scaling People, which in my opinion should be and likely will be on every founder's bookshelf.
本周，她发布了一本令人难以置信的书，名为《Scaling People》，在我看来，这本书应该而且很可能会出现在每个创始人的书架上。
In our conversation, we dig into many of the meaty topics that her book covers, including building your operational cadence, defining your company and personal operating principles, your company's operating system.
在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了她书中涵盖的许多重要主题，包括建立您的运营节奏、定义您的公司和个人运营原则、您公司的操作系统。
Lenny: Also, tons of tactical advice around saying things that you cannot say, building self-awareness, distinguishing management from leadership, so much more.
莱尼：此外，还有大量的战术建议，包括说你不能说的话、建立自我意识、区分管理和领导等等。
I say this a couple times in our conversation.
我在我们的谈话中说过几次这句话。
If you enjoyed my newsletter and podcast and the fact that it's very tactical and full of templates and frameworks, you'll love Claire's book, and you'll love learning from Claire.
如果您喜欢我的时事通讯和播客，并且喜欢它的战术性且充满模板和框架，那么您一定会喜欢克莱尔的书，并且会喜欢向克莱尔学习。
I had such a good time chatting with Claire, and I know you'll learn a lot from this conversation.
我和克莱尔聊得很开心，我知道你会从这次谈话中学到很多东西。
With that, I bring you Claire Hughes Johnson after a short word from our wonderful sponsors.
在我们出色的赞助商简短致辞后，我为您带来了克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊 (Claire Hughes Johnson)。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Linear.
Lenny：这一集是由 Linear 为您带来的。
Let's be honest, this sheet tracker that you're using today isn't very helpful.
老实说，您今天使用的这个工作表跟踪器并不是很有帮助。
Why is it that it always seems to be working against you instead of working for you?
为什么它似乎总是对你不利而不是对你有利？
Why does it feel like such a chore to use?
为什么使用起来感觉这么麻烦？
Well, Linear is different.
那么，线性则不同。
It's incredibly fast, beautifully designed, and it comes with powerful workflows that streamline your entire product development process, from issue tracking all the way to managing product roadmaps.
它的速度令人难以置信，设计精美，并且具有强大的工作流程，可以简化您的整个产品开发流程，从问题跟踪一直到管理产品路线图。
Linear is designed for the way modern software teams work.
Linear 专为现代软件团队的工作方式而设计。
What users love about linear are the powerful keyboard shortcuts, efficient GitHub integrations, cycles that actually create progress, and built-in project updates that keep everyone in sync.
用户喜欢 Linear 的原因是强大的键盘快捷键、高效的 GitHub 集成、真正创造进步的循环，以及让每个人保持同步的内置项目更新。
In short, it just works.
简而言之，它就是有效的。
Linear is the default tool of choice among startups, and it powers a wide range of large established companies such as Vercel, Retool, and Cash App.
Linear 是初创公司选择的默认工具，它为 Vercel、Retool 和 Cash App 等众多大型老牌公司提供支持。
See for yourself by product teams describe using linear as magical.
亲眼看看产品团队描述使用线性是多么神奇。
Visit linear.app/lenny to try Linear for free with your team, and get 25% off when you upgrade.
访问 Linear.app/lenny 与您的团队免费试用 Linear，升级时可享受 25% 的折扣。
That's linear.app/lenny.
那是 Linear.app/lenny。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate growth.
Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速增长。
If your business stores any data in the cloud, then you've likely been asked or are you going to be asked about your SOC 2 compliance.
如果您的企业在云中存储任何数据，那么您可能会被问到或将会被问到您的 SOC 2 合规性。
SOC 2 is a way to prove your company's taking proper security measures to protect customer data, and builds trust with customers and partners, especially those with serious security requirements.
SOC 2 可以证明您的公司采取了适当的安全措施来保护客户数据，并与客户和合作伙伴（尤其是那些有严格安全要求的客户和合作伙伴）建立信任。
Also, if you want to sell to the enterprise, proving security is essential.
此外，如果你想向企业销售产品，证明安全性至关重要。
SOC 2 can either open the door for bigger and better deals or it can put your business on hold.
SOC 2 可以为更大、更好的交易打开大门，也可以让您的业务暂停。
If you don't have a SOC 2, there's a good chance you won't even get a seat at the table.
如果您没有 SOC 2，您很可能甚至无法获得席位。
Beginning a SOC 2 to your report can be a huge burden, especially for startups.
在报告中开始 SOC 2 可能是一个巨大的负担，尤其是对于初创公司而言。
It's time consuming, tedious, and expensive.
这是耗时、乏味且昂贵的。
Enter Vanta.
输入万塔。
Over 3000 fast growing companies.
超过3000家快速成长的公司。
Lenny: Use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2.
Lenny：使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 涉及的高达 90% 的工作。
Vanta can get you ready for security audits in weeks instead of months, less than a third of the time that it usually takes.
Vanta 可以让您在几周而不是几个月内为安全审核做好准备，不到通常所需时间的三分之一。
For a limited time.
在有限的时间内。
Lenny's podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.
Lenny 的播客听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。
Just go to vanta.com/lenny.
只需访问vanta.com/lenny。
That's vanta.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discount.
如需了解更多信息并申请折扣，请访问vanta.com/lenny。
Get started today.
今天就开始吧。
Lenny: Claire, welcome to the podcast.
莱尼：克莱尔，欢迎来到播客。
Lenny: So you wrote this book.
莱尼：所以你写了这本书。
It's called Scaling People.
这就是所谓的“扩大人员规模”。
It's coming out this week.
它将于本周发布。
I actually read a preview copy, and it's incredible.
我实际上读过预览版，这令人难以置信。
Everyone listening to this should buy it, especially if you're a fan of this podcast.
每个听这个播客的人都应该购买它，特别是如果您是这个播客的粉丝。
It's full of frameworks and templates and guides and all these things that I try to do with my newsletter and podcast.
它充满了框架、模板和指南以及我尝试通过我的时事通讯和播客做的所有这些事情。
And so if you like what I do, you're going to love this book.
因此，如果您喜欢我所做的事情，您就会喜欢这本书。
And I can't imagine how much work it must have taken to write a book like this.
我无法想象写这样一本书需要花费多少精力。
So my first question just have relieved are you that you're done with this book and you can move on with your life?
所以我的第一个问题让你松了口气，你已经读完了这本书，可以继续你的生活了吗？
Claire Hughes Johnson: I am so relieved, Lenny.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我很放心，莱尼。
Writing this book was not my idea.
写这本书不是我的主意。
Patrick and John Collison, Stripe's co-founders, really sort of pushed me into it.
Stripe 的联合创始人 Patrick 和 John Collison 确实推动了我的发展。
And I'm glad they did.
我很高兴他们做到了。
I will admit that, as I am with most things they pushed me into, but it was a lot more work than I thought it would be, and it's very rewarding to have it done.
我承认，正如我对他们推动我做的大多数事情一样，但这比我想象的要多得多，而且完成它是非常有意义的。
Of course, though I've been re-looking at it and realizing there are things I want to add information or tweak what I originally said, but maybe we'll have to do a second edition.
当然，尽管我一直在重新审视它并意识到我想添加一些信息或调整我最初所说的内容，但也许我们必须制作第二版。
We'll see.
我们拭目以待。
Lenny: That's the benefit of a newsletter.
莱尼：这就是时事通讯的好处。
I can just edit things and they're immediately live.
我只需编辑内容即可立即生效。
Lenny: I want to talk about John and Patrick a little bit.
莱尼：我想谈谈约翰和帕特里克。
But before that, something I wanted to ask is I find that when I write stuff, I am able to better understand and crystallize my own thinking.
但在此之前，我想问的是，我发现当我写东西时，我能够更好地理解和具体化自己的想法。
And I'm curious, having written this book, what is it that you were able to better understand and crystallize in your own thinking through that process?
我很好奇，在写完这本书之后，您在这个过程中能够更好地理解并在自己的思考中具体化了哪些内容？
Claire Hughes Johnson: It's true, and it's funny, because if you asked me, I would've said I crystallize more by talking and speaking.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：这是真的，而且很有趣，因为如果你问我，我会说我通过不断地说话使自己更加具体化。
But whenever I do write something down, I'm glad I did.
但每当我写下一些东西时，我很高兴我这么做了。
So I probably do more crystallizing by writing than I would admit, but maybe I'm just lazy and I just like to talk.
所以我可能通过写作比我承认的更具体，但也许我只是懒惰，我只是喜欢说话。
There's a part of the book, I think it's toward the end of the third chapter, which is about hiring, and that's a really long chapter.
这本书有一部分，我认为是在第三章的末尾，这是关于招聘的，这是一个非常长的章节。
Turns out I had a lot to say about hiring and hiring leaders and processes and what you need want to set up.
事实证明，关于招聘和招聘领导者、流程以及你需要设置什么，我有很多话要说。
And as I got toward the end of the chapter, I found myself saying to the reader...
当我读到本章末尾时，我发现自己对读者说……
You maybe have read this and thought, is she for real?
您可能读过这篇文章并想，她是真的吗？
You need to do all this work?
你需要做所有这些工作吗？
You need to put all of this in?
你需要把这些都放进去吗？
And I had to say, well, look...
我不得不说，好吧，看...
I started the chapter saying, if you believe that talent is everything, then your hiring process is everything.
我在本章开头说，如果你相信人才就是一切，那么你的招聘流程就是一切。
Claire Hughes Johnson: And so yes, you do need to put that work in.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的，你确实需要投入这项工作。
But I think, Lenny, to your point, when you see all the templates and the frameworks and the examples and the advice from my career...
但我认为，莱尼，就你的观点而言，当你看到我职业生涯中的所有模板、框架、示例和建议时......
And I was at Google for almost 11 years, I joined Google when it was about 1800 people pre IPO and left when it was about 60,000.
我在谷歌工作了近 11 年，我在 IPO 前加入谷歌时，谷歌约有 1800 人，在谷歌约有 60,000 人时离开。
I had eight different jobs while I was there.
我在那里时做过八份不同的工作。
And then joining Stripe when it was about 160 people, and now we're over 7,000 people.
然后加入 Stripe 时只有大约 160 人，现在我们已经超过 7,000 人。
Yeah, I have a lot of examples, but really what's crystallized is how much work it is to build, to build a company.
是的，我有很多例子，但真正具体的是建立一家公司需要多少工作。
You know this.
你知道这一点。
And I hope this book is a bit of a shortcut, but there are no shortcuts.
我希望这本书能提供一点捷径，但没有捷径。
I hope it will accelerate people's knowledge so that they can get down to work with our product and with our customers.
我希望它能够加速人们的知识增长，以便他们能够认真使用我们的产品和我们的客户。
Lenny: There's a story you share at the end of the book, I think it's in acknowledgements, about how people went and took John Collison out for dinner and were just picking his brain, and "How did you scale Stripe?
莱尼：你在书的结尾分享了一个故事，我想是在致谢中，关于人们如何带约翰·克里森出去吃晚饭，然后只是想听听他的想法，“你是如何扩展 Stripe 规模的？
How did you build this amazing machine of a company?" And he often came back from these dinners, and he's just like, "Claire, they just want to talk to you.
你是如何打造出这台令人惊叹的公司机器的？”他经常从这些晚餐中回来，他就像，“克莱尔，他们只是想和你谈谈。
You did all these things, not me." And it sounds like that kind of encouraged you to write things down, and then led to this book.
所有这些事情都是你做的，不是我做的。”听起来像是鼓励你把事情写下来，然后导致了这本书。
One, is that true?
一、这是真的吗？
And then two, I'm curious, what else did you learn from John and Patrick Collison that have stuck with you?
还有两个，我很好奇，你从约翰和帕特里克·科里森那里还学到了什么让你印象深刻的东西？
I imagine there's a lot, but kind of what stands out?
我想有很多，但有什么突出的呢？
Claire Hughes Johnson: Yeah, no, absolutely.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的，不，绝对。
I think it is true that at Stripe, we're fortunate where we have so many users, customers who are themselves founders or interesting companies growing up around the world, whether at scale like Amazon or scaling.
我认为，在 Stripe，我们确实很幸运，我们拥有如此多的用户、客户，他们本身就是创始人或在世界各地成长的有趣公司，无论是像亚马逊这样的规模还是规模化的公司。
I've spent time with Discord and Toast and all kinds of interesting companies that are growing up around us.
我曾与 Discord 和 Toast 以及我们周围成长起来的各种有趣的公司一起度过了时光。
And a lot of their questions are not necessarily about Stripe's products always.
而且他们的很多问题并不一定都是关于 Stripe 的产品。
They're really about, "Well, how do you guys do this thing?" Or "We're having this challenge.
他们实际上是在问，“好吧，你们是怎么做这件事的？”或者“我们面临着这个挑战。
Are you having this challenge?" And John, yeah, would often come back from trips.
你有这个挑战吗？”约翰，是的，经常旅行回来。
He would travel more, and he is often probably meets with more customers than anyone in the Stripe leadership team, maybe other than our sales leaders.
他出差的次数更多，而且他经常会见的客户比 Stripe 领导团队中的任何人都多，也许除了我们的销售领导之外。
And they would ask about scaling, and he would joke.
他们会问有关缩放的问题，他会开玩笑。
He's like, "We need Claire in a box." So I think the book is Claire in a box, I guess.
他说，“我们需要把克莱尔装在盒子里。”所以我认为这本书是盒子里的克莱尔，我猜。
Claire Hughes Johnson: But Patrick also would have that same experience.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：但帕特里克也会有同样的经历。
And when I contributed a chapter to Elad Gil's High Growth Handbook, even though if you look at High Growth Handbook, which I also really do recommend not just because I'm in it, I'm probably the least, I don't know, celebrity participant in his chapters, and my chapter got a lot of traction because I think it was very specific.
当我为埃拉德·吉尔的《高增长手册》贡献一章时，即使你看一下《高增长手册》，我也确实推荐这本书，不仅仅是因为我在其中，我可能是他章节中最少的名人参与者，我不知道，我的章节受到了很大的关注，因为我认为它非常具体。
It was very tactical.
这是非常战术性的。
And Elad actually helped me to realize, look, examples and details and frameworks, my working with Claire document is in there, is like...
Elad 实际上帮助我认识到，看，示例、细节和框架，我与 Claire 的合作文档就在那里，就像......
He said it's catnip.
他说这是猫薄荷。
And I think that is also what inspired Patrick to push me to do basically a longer version of that chapter that I did with Elad.
我认为这也是启发帕特里克推动我完成我与埃拉德一起完成的那一章的更长版本的原因。
But I've learned a lot from both of them.
但我从他们俩身上学到了很多东西。
I used to think that I was...
我曾经以为我是...
My parents are teachers, Lenny.
我的父母都是老师，莱尼。
I used to think I was very curious, and I'm a learner and I'll seek out information.
我曾经认为我很好奇，我是一个学习者，我会寻找信息。
Claire Hughes Johnson: And I grew up in a very educatory environment, right?
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我是在一个非常受教育的环境中长大的，对吧？
Well, once I met the Collisons, the two of them are huge sponges, seeking out knowledge constantly.
嗯，一旦我遇到了科里森夫妇，他们两个就像一块巨大的海绵，不断地寻求知识。
But also, anytime we were confronted with anything, even things I felt I'd done before, that I had the experience and we were going to build it, they were like, "Well, who have you talked to?" Or "What have you read?" And it was really good.
而且，每当我们遇到任何事情，甚至是我觉得我以前做过的事情，我有经验并且我们要建造它的事情，他们都会说，“好吧，你和谁谈过？”或者“你读过什么？”这真的很好。
I don't think I made enough phone calls in my earlier career and asked people's advice and asked for help and found the person who did that thing five years ago and found out what they learned.
我认为在我早期的职业生涯中，我没有打足够多的电话，询问人们的建议，寻求帮助，找到五年前做过那件事的人，并了解他们学到了什么。
And I think that's probably my biggest lesson from working with both of them, is how much it pays to seek out knowledge from others because we're all just learning all the time.
我认为这可能是我与他们一起工作中学到的最大的教训，那就是向他人寻求知识是值得付出代价的，因为我们都在不断学习。
Lenny: Is there a story or example of that comes to mind that was really beneficial where you actually ended up follow that advice and reached out to someone, talked to someone, and that changed the way you think, changed the way you operate?
莱尼：有没有一个故事或例子浮现在我的脑海中，它确实对你非常有益，你实际上最终遵循了建议并与某人接触，与某人交谈，这改变了你的思维方式，改变了你的运作方式？
Claire Hughes Johnson: There are two things that just jumped into my mind.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：有两件事突然跳入我的脑海。
The first one is early on at Stripe...
第一个是在 Stripe 的早期......
When I joined, we were about 160 people.
当我加入时，我们大约有 160 人。
I started bringing in some leaders.
我开始引进一些领导人。
We were building out go to market, we were starting to stabilize our support operations, building out recruiting and HR, all the things.
我们正在拓展市场，我们开始稳定我们的支持业务，建立招聘和人力资源，所有的事情。
We were really growing.
我们真的在成长。
And it became very apparent that we needed to put in some kind of job structure.
很明显，我们需要建立某种工作结构。
Levels and ladders is what you would call it, which is there are different levels of pay, and they have to do with your experience and your impact and their expectations of those different levels, right?
级别和阶梯就是你所说的，即有不同级别的薪酬，它们与你的经验、你的影响以及他们对这些不同级别的期望有关，对吗？
There's an engineering ladder.
有一个工程梯子。
And this stuff is probably making some people listening like their skin start to crawl because it's never fun or easy to define all that, and it's not perfect.
这些东西可能会让一些人听着觉得起鸡皮疙瘩，因为定义这一切从来都不是一件有趣或容易的事情，而且它并不完美。
You're immediately getting into something that feels pretty suboptimal, but it is worse to have nothing because it starts to feel very unfair in the environment, especially if you have to start to change up compensation and reward or reward systems, right?
你立刻就会陷入一些感觉不太理想的事情，但一无所有更糟糕，因为它开始让人感觉环境非常不公平，特别是如果你必须开始改变薪酬和奖励或奖励制度，对吗？
Claire Hughes Johnson: So I realized, oh my gosh, we're going to have to put this in place.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：所以我意识到，天哪，我们必须把它落实到位。
We didn't know HR people, so I basically ran a project.
我们不认识人力资源人员，所以我基本上负责一个项目。
And the first thing I did though, thanks to Patrick and John, is I talked to Square, I talked to Airbnb, and I talked to two or three other companies.
感谢帕特里克和约翰，我做的第一件事就是与 Square、Airbnb 以及其他两三个公司进行了交谈。
But those two conversations, I'm not going to say who said this, but one of them, the person said, "Oh, that's a blood bath." They were not encouraging about what we were about to go through.
但那两次谈话，我不会说是谁说的，但其中一次，那个人说，“哦，那是一场血洗。”他们对我们即将经历的事情并不鼓励。
And another one said, "You know what?
另一个人说：“你知道吗？
I'm so impressed that you're doing that so early.
我对你这么早就这么做感到印象深刻。
We waited too long." And actually, that's what a lot of my book.
我们等得太久了。”事实上，这就是我书中的很多内容。
It's about is when should you start to think about this thing that you might need, right?
这是关于你什么时候应该开始考虑你可能需要的这个东西，对吧？
And it's sooner than you think.
而且比你想象的要早。
And so putting in levels of ladders felt like ripping the off, honestly, but I was glad.
因此，说实话，放置梯子的层次感觉就像是在敲诈，但我很高兴。
One company I talked to waited until they were like 800 people, and it was apparently not fun because people don't like to be...
我采访过的一家公司一直等到员工人数达到 800 人左右，这显然并不有趣，因为人们不喜欢……
Who likes to be categorized?
谁喜欢被分类？
Lenny: Yeah, and put it at a level that maybe they're not happy with, right?
莱尼：是的，把它放在一个他们可能不满意的水平上，对吧？
They're like, "Oh, I thought I was a lot more senior than that."
他们会说，“哦，我以为我比那年长得多。”
Claire Hughes Johnson: Yep.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
It's not easy.
这并不容易。
It's a form of change challenging.
这是一种具有挑战性的变革形式。
And I would not say we did it perfectly, but I'm glad we did it.
我不会说我们做得很完美，但我很高兴我们做到了。
I think that example was definitely one of them.
我认为这个例子绝对是其中之一。
Another was like we were really...
另一个就像我们真的...
We wanted to roll out 24/7 support in multiple channels, email, phone, chat in multiple languages and getting from where we were to where we wanted to be as quickly as possible.
我们希望通过多种渠道、电子邮件、电话、多种语言的聊天来推出 24/7 支持，并尽快从我们所处的位置到达我们想要的位置。
Not many companies have done at the scale, because Stripe has millions of customers.
没有多少公司能做到如此规模，因为 Stripe 拥有数百万客户。
We're B2B, but we're B2B at a very high scale, which actually Google was as well.
我们是 B2B，但我们是规模非常大的 B2B，实际上 Google 也是如此。
And so that was beneficial to me coming into the Stripe environment because I'd done parts of that for Google.
因此，这对我进入 Stripe 环境非常有利，因为我已经为 Google 完成了部分工作。
And again, that's an example of something I thought I knew how to do, sort of, but we certainly didn't do it perfectly, and it's certainly different when you're talking about payments.
再说一次，这是我认为我知道如何做的一个例子，但我们当然没有做得完美，而且当你谈论付款时，情况肯定有所不同。
Claire Hughes Johnson: That's people's money.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：那是人们的钱。
That is a business'...
那是一个企业的...
If they don't know how to contact you and they have a problem, that is a huge issue.
如果他们不知道如何联系您并且遇到问题，那就是一个大问题。
And so I did seek out a lot of advice.
所以我确实寻求了很多建议。
And I would say...
我想说...
Did anything change dramatically what we did?
我们所做的事情有什么显着改变吗？
I think if anything, the advice pushed me to go faster on some of my intuitions about, for example, using vendors and outsourcing parts of the model.
我认为，如果有的话，这些建议促使我更快地实现我的一些直觉，例如使用供应商和外包模型的部分。
And I realized we're not going to scale all this internally, especially not at the speed that we're going, but it's hard to start to use outside sort of contractors if you haven't filled figured out all your tools and processes.
我意识到我们不会在内部扩展所有这些，尤其是不会以我们目前的速度扩展，但如果您还没有弄清楚所有工具和流程，就很难开始使用外部承包商。
So that balance was sort of freaking me out, but you just got to push through it.
所以这种平衡有点让我害怕，但你必须克服它。
Lenny: There's a couple directions I want to go, but I'll go in an unexpected direction.
Lenny：我有几个方向想去，但我会朝一个意想不到的方向走。
At Stripe, you're kind of infamous for your titles.
在 Stripe，你的头衔有点臭名昭著。
When I created this career ladder document.
当我创建这个职业阶梯文档时。
Lenny: Yeah, it's like everyone's product manager., They're like a VP of product potential and it's like product manager.
Lenny：是的，这就像每个人的产品经理，他们就像产品潜力副总裁，就像产品经理。
What's the rationale behind that?
这背后的理由是什么？
I guess, and what's the benefit of that?
我想，这样做有什么好处呢？
But, we don't have to go too far down the road.
但是，我们不必在这条路上走得太远。
I'm just curious.
我只是好奇。
Claire Hughes Johnson: So this is something that Patrick and I actually really agreed on without a lot of discussion, which is not always the case.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：帕特里克和我实际上在没有进行大量讨论的情况下就达成了一致，但情况并非总是如此。
It has to do with a combination of optionality as you scale and grow, and also culture, right?
它与规模和成长过程中的可选性以及文化的结合有关，对吗？
And so the minute you start titling a lot, you're signaling hierarchy and authority.
因此，一旦你开始大量命名，你就在发出等级制度和权威的信号。
And the culture piece to Stripe still today, which is I think we could use more, at least more overt trappings of structure because it can get confusing.
Stripe 的文化部分至今仍然存在，我认为我们可以使用更多、至少更明显的结构装饰，因为它可能会让人困惑。
And I'll be the first to tell you that, and I admit that this might have carried on too far.
我将是第一个告诉你这一点的人，我承认这可能已经进行得太远了。
But early on, at Stripe, there's a real belief.
但在早期，Stripe 就有一个真正的信念。
It's not a particularly hierarchical company.
这不是一家等级森严的公司。
And if you're the person who has the knowledge, you are the expert on the thing, you better be, one, in the room helping make the decision, and two, driving, helping to drive the decision.
如果你是拥有知识的人，你是这件事的专家，你最好是，第一，在房间里帮助做出决定，第二，推动，帮助推动决策。
And I don't care how senior you are, right?
我不在乎你的资历有多深，对吧？
And that was the cultural signal that was important, which was about mutual ownership, and also expertise not sitting in hierarchy.
这就是重要的文化信号，即相互所有权，以及不按等级划分的专业知识。
Claire Hughes Johnson: And then the optionality thing is probably a little more obvious, which is don't make somebody the CMO, or even the head of marketing, if you're marketing team is two people, right?
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：然后，选择性的事情可能更明显一点，那就是不要让某人担任首席营销官，甚至是营销主管，如果你的营销团队是两个人，对吧？
Yeah, you might make the right choice, but two years later, your marketing team's probably going to be more than two people, say it's 20.
是的，你可能会做出正确的选择，但两年后，你的营销团队可能会超过两个人，比如说 20 人。
And are you going to have to layer somebody or have too many titles?
您是否需要对某人进行分层或拥有太多头衔？
And then someone feels like they're losing something, right?
然后有人会觉得他们失去了一些东西，对吗？
It goes back to the levels and ladder saying, but it's worse because you've given something, and then you're sort of taking it away, and that's just not...
这可以追溯到关卡和阶梯的说法，但更糟糕的是，因为你已经给予了一些东西，然后你又把它拿走了，而那不是......
Organizationally, you want more flexibility.
在组织上，您需要更大的灵活性。
Honestly, I'll say my final thing, which is I have a little bit of a knit where you meet a company.
老实说，我会说我的最后一件事，那就是我对与一家公司的联系有一点了解。
I get what's happened, which is in order to hire this person, they had to sort of say, "I'll make you the VP of sales or the VP of this," but the company's like 25 people and there's seven VPs.
我明白发生了什么，为了雇用这个人，他们不得不说，“我会让你担任销售副总裁或这方面的副总裁”，但公司有 25 名员工，其中有 7 名副总裁。
Claire Hughes Johnson: If you're a customer or you're evaluating it, you're kind of like, "Really?" It's a little incongruous with the scale.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：如果您是客户或正在评估它，您会有点像，“真的吗？”与尺度有点不协调。
So we kind of more flexible.
所以我们更加灵活。
We had a lot of growth, head of this or growth lead.
我们有很多增长，这是增长的领导者。
I know you're all about growth, Lenny.
我知道你关心的是成长，莱尼。
Well, we definitely took growth and find that very broadly.
嗯，我们确实看到了增长，并发现它的范围非常广泛。
But the other thing I've said to people internally...
但我在内部对人们说过的另一件事......
Sorry, you can really get me going on this one.
抱歉，你真的可以让我继续这个。
I bet you didn't think that.
我打赌你不这么认为。
If you are a stripe and you're going out into the market, actually it speaks to the same thing, which is you're going and trying to sell to a customer who's a lot bigger than you.
如果你是一个条纹，你要进入市场，实际上它说的是同一件事，那就是你要去并试图向比你大得多的客户销售产品。
I'm not saying make up a title.
我并不是说要起一个标题。
Don't say you're the VP of sales, but you can be creative about how you represent your scope because you probably have really big scope because you're one of the only people helping to sell the product.
不要说你是销售副总裁，但你可以在如何表达你的范围方面发挥创意，因为你的范围可能非常大，因为你是唯一帮助销售产品的人之一。
And that will help you because a lot of more established mature companies are trying to do that hierarchy match, where "Well, bring your SVP because my SVP is coming to the meeting."
这会对你有所帮助，因为许多更成熟的成熟公司正在尝试进行层次结构匹配，其中“好吧，带上你的高级副总裁，因为我的高级副总裁要参加会议。”
Claire Hughes Johnson: And we could be like, we don't really have that.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我们可能会说，我们真的没有那样的东西。
It just gives you a little more selling flexibility too.
它也只是为您提供了更多的销售灵活性。
Lenny: I like that.
莱尼：我喜欢这样。
I like combo where you can just say something that fits in this situation, even though that's not your technical title.
我喜欢组合，你可以只说一些适合这种情况的内容，即使这不是你的技术头衔。
Claire Hughes Johnson: Yes, you can say, "Oh yeah, I actually am in charge of optimization for our payments product." I'm sure you are.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的，你可以说，“哦，是的，我实际上负责我们支付产品的优化。”我确信你是。
I'm sure that's what you
我确信这就是你
Lenny: Do.
莱尼：做。
Coming back to something you talked about with the career ladder, and I had a question around this, you talked about how oftentimes people do it too late, and I'm curious why it's so important to think about the stuff that you wrote about in this book so early in your company's life cycle.
回到你谈到的职业阶梯问题，我对此有一个问题，你谈到人们常常做得太晚了，我很好奇为什么在公司生命周期的早期思考你在这本书中写的内容如此重要。
I think in the book you mentioned that it's oftentimes as important to get your operational structure and cultural structures in place incorrect as finding product market fit or finding your first few customers, which I think would surprised a lot of people.
我认为您在书中提到，让您的运营结构和文化结构正确到位通常与寻找产品市场契合度或找到最初的几个客户一样重要，我认为这会让很多人感到惊讶。
Can you talk about why you found that to be so important?
您能谈谈为什么您认为这一点如此重要吗？
Claire Hughes Johnson: Not only can I talk about it, I wrote a whole book about it, so let's try to restrain me.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我不仅可以谈论它，我还写了一整本书，所以让我们尽量克制我。
But here's what I would say.
但这就是我要说的。
Obviously product market fit is the most important.
显然，产品市场契合度是最重要的。
And what I do say in the book is focus on that and don't get too far.
我在书中所说的就是专注于此，不要走得太远。
My book is definitely not zero to one.
我的书绝对不是从零到一。
It's more like maybe 0.5 to 1.5 or one to two.
更像是 0.5 到 1.5 或 1 到 2。
Because I do think when you're smaller and focused on product market fit and finding your user and getting that traction, that shapes a lot of how you work and your goals and who you hire, and that all makes sense.
因为我确实认为，当你规模较小、专注于产品市场契合度、寻找用户并获得吸引力时，这会在很大程度上影响你的工作方式、你的目标以及你雇用的人员，而这一切都是有道理的。
I think the thing that happens though is, one, some companies don't quite realize they're hitting it and they start to get behind on actually building the company part.
我认为发生的事情是，第一，一些公司并没有完全意识到他们正在实现目标，并且他们开始在实际构建公司部分方面落后。
Because guess what?
因为你猜怎么着？
Claire Hughes Johnson: It turns out product market fit is just the product, and that is not a company, and that will not scale, to point.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：事实证明，产品市场契合度只是产品，它不是一家公司，而且不会规模化。
You see these companies that sort of fall over and there's sort of a bad article about them, and often it's not the product, it's the fact that they didn't actually build the company very well, and that started to harm, in fact harm the product and harm the mission.
你看到这些公司有点倒下，有一篇关于他们的糟糕文章，通常不是产品，而是他们实际上没有把公司建设得很好，这开始损害，事实上损害产品并损害使命。
You have this vision, you're going to solve this problem with this product.
你有这个愿景，你就会用这个产品解决这个问题。
And all of a sudden you can't solve it because you didn't scale the org properly.
突然间你无法解决这个问题，因为你没有正确扩展组织。
You didn't keep the cultural fabric strong as you grew, right?
随着你的成长，你并没有保持强大的文化结构，对吧？
And so that's why I think it's so important.
这就是为什么我认为它如此重要。
And so let's say you are hitting traction, and hopefully you do notice it.
假设您正在获得牵引力，希望您确实注意到了这一点。
Because I think a lot of founders, you're kind of paranoid.
因为我认为很多创始人都有点偏执。
Claire Hughes Johnson: Like Stripe, I don't think Patrick and John fully embraced that they needed to start scaling maybe until I showed up, and that was part of hiring me.
Claire Hughes Johnson：像 Stripe 一样，我认为 Patrick 和 John 并没有完全接受他们可能需要在我出现之前开始扩大规模，而这是雇用我的一部分。
I was like, yeah, this is it.
我当时想，是的，就是这样。
It's happening.
它正在发生。
It's not just look at the numbers.
这不仅仅是看数字。
It's like look at the inbound support demand, look at the inbound sales leads.
这就像查看入站支持需求、查看入站销售线索。
I just did the math, and I was like, this company should be probably twice the number of people it is right now, which of course freaked everybody out, but it was very obvious to me because I was coming in outside with that perspective.
我刚刚做了数学计算，我想，这家公司的人数可能是现在的两倍，这当然吓坏了每个人，但这对我来说非常明显，因为我是抱着这样的观点进来的。
But more importantly, not just scaling things like sales and support...
但更重要的是，不仅仅是扩大销售和支持之类的事情......
And as you probably know, if you work in payments, you've got a lot of other functions that are very important around risk and compliance and you name it, or the machine learning models and that help you do those things.
正如您可能知道的那样，如果您从事支付工作，那么您拥有许多其他对于风险和合规性非常重要的功能，或者机器学习模型，可以帮助您完成这些事情。
Claire Hughes Johnson: But for the sort of structures and operating processes that I talk about in the book, I do have this analogy which I think you picked up on to building a house, which is you have the supporting beam.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：但是对于我在书中谈到的那种结构和操作流程，我确实有一个类比，我认为您在建造房屋时也采用了这种类比，即您有支撑梁。
Say it's a post and beam structure.
假设这是一个柱梁结构。
You need the posts and the beams, and then you're going to have to do the mechanicals, right?
你需要柱子和横梁，然后你就必须做机械工作，对吧？
There's going to have to be some amount of wiring in order for you.
必须有一定数量的接线才能满足您的需要。
I don't know if you have your solar panels, but you got to bring in the heat, you got to bring in the cooling and plumbing, and then you have foundational stuff that you have to build or the whole structure will fall over.
我不知道你是否有太阳能电池板，但你必须引入热量，你必须引入冷却和管道系统，然后你必须建造基础材料，否则整个结构就会倒塌。
And I think of putting in the posts and beams and the mechanicals and the foundation as actually essential to scale.
我认为放置柱子、横梁、机械装置和地基对于规模来说实际上是至关重要的。
Because if you do those things well, you build them in such a way.
因为如果你把这些事情做好，你就会以这种方式构建它们。
This is almost like a Russian doll kind of thing, but you build them so that they're replicable, right?
这几乎就像俄罗斯套娃之类的东西，但你建造它们是为了让它们可以复制，对吧？
Claire Hughes Johnson: So the way that you do goals as a company can start at the company level, and this is how OKRs were so beautiful for Google and they can replicate down to the individual.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：作为一家公司，实现目标的方式可以从公司层面开始，这就是 OKR 对 Google 来说如此美妙的原因，并且它们可以复制到个人。
And the same common structure allows that to happen at really different levels of scale.
相同的通用结构允许在不同的规模级别上发生这种情况。
And that's what you're looking for, is what are these common things?
这就是你要寻找的，这些常见的东西是什么？
We do not a lot of them, by the way.
顺便说一句，我们没有很多。
You don't want to mandate a lot, you don't want to put too much structure in place, but enough that everyone can play with it up and down what I would think of as the stack of the company.
你不想强制太多，你不想建立太多的结构，但足够让每个人都可以在我所认为的公司堆栈中上下发挥作用。
And if you don't start putting those things in early, people will just invent those things.
如果你不尽早开始投入这些东西，人们就会发明这些东西。
And then you'll have...
然后你就会...
Picture a house that got added on to 17 times and it's not even two years old.
想象一下，一栋房子已经加建了 17 次，但它的寿命还不到两年。
It looks not super stable.
看起来不是超级稳定。
And then you're going to find yourself having to do a tear down, which I think we've all seen companies do that.
然后你会发现自己必须进行拆除，我想我们都看到公司这样做了。
Lenny: I definitely want to get into that house structure and all the components of it.
莱尼：我绝对想了解那个房子的结构和它的所有组成部分。
But before we get there, if you're a early stage founder just looking for product market fit, maybe the skipping ahead a little bit, but which elements do you think are the most important that they need to do now?
但在我们到达那里之前，如果您是一位早期创始人，只是在寻找适合市场的产品，也许可以稍微跳过一点，但您认为哪些要素是他们现在需要做的最重要的事情？
Because they're going to read your book, which gives them so much advice on all the things you can do.
因为他们会读你的书，这本书给了他们很多关于你可以做的事情的建议。
Lenny: If you have to pick a couple things that you have to nail when you're just starting out before product market fit, what do you think is most important?
Lenny：如果在产品市场适应之前你必须选择一些必须解决的事情，你认为最重要的是什么？
Claire Hughes Johnson: I think really that early, keeping it very simple and being focused on that goal of product market, which is like what is the problem you're trying to solve?
克莱尔休斯约翰逊：我认为真的很早，保持非常简单并专注于产品市场的目标，这就像你想要解决的问题是什么？
What's your vision?Everything you have to do for an investor pitch deck matters not just for the investors.
您的愿景是什么？您为投资者推介材料所做的一切不仅对投资者很重要。
By the way, people forget this.
顺便说一句，人们忘记了这一点。
A lot of the story you tell to investors, early ones especially is the story you should be telling internally to anybody you hire.
你向投资者讲述的很多故事，尤其是早期的故事，是你应该在内部向你雇用的任何人讲述的故事。
Why do we exist?
我们为何存在？
What problem are we trying to solve?
我们要解决什么问题？
What early customers have we attracted, and what's their feedback.
我们吸引了哪些早期客户，他们的反馈是什么。
That's what you mostly need, but you need to remember to share it and don't just use it for fundraising, or don't just use it for a board meeting or an investor meeting.
这是你最需要的，但你需要记住分享它，不要仅仅将其用于筹款，或者不要仅将其用于董事会会议或投资者会议。
Use it internally.
在内部使用它。
And I think you can get pretty far actually with that core content.
我认为你实际上可以通过核心内容走得更远。
As you start to...
当你开始...
Claire Hughes Johnson: The first thing you're probably putting in place is a little bit of hiring process, and I think that's going to matter sooner than you think.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：您可能要做的第一件事就是制定一些招聘流程，我认为这比您想象的更重要。
Don't just be tempted to hire people in your friends.
不要只是想雇佣你朋友中的人。
Think about what you need, what capabilities you need to build even pre PMF, right?
想想您需要什么，甚至在 PMF 之前您需要构建哪些功能，对吗？
And so as I said, there's a chapter about that, but I think some of the simplest versions of it is how do we evaluate talent?
正如我所说，有一章是关于这个的，但我认为它的一些最简单的版本是我们如何评估人才？
What kind of talent are we looking for?
我们要寻找什么样的人才？
Where do we go look for talent, figure that out, and sort of train people a bit internally on interviewing.
我们去哪里寻找人才，弄清楚这一点，并在面试方面对人们进行一些内部培训。
I think interviewing is not a skill that comes naturally.
我认为面试并不是一项与生俱来的技能。
People think it does.
人们认为确实如此。
It does not.
事实并非如此。
And there's really basic easy tips and tricks you can find even on the interwebs about interviewing.
即使在互联网上，您也可以找到有关面试的基本简单提示和技巧。
And I really recommend...
而且我真的推荐...
And my book has examples of rubrics, questions you can use.
我的书中有您可以使用的标题和问题的示例。
How do you really get at...
你如何真正到达...
Because it's hard to really evaluate someone in 30 minutes or 45 minutes.
因为在30分钟或45分钟内很难真正评价一个人。
Claire Hughes Johnson: So I think interviewing some of your fun fundamental early investor kind of content you need.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：所以我认为采访一些有趣的基本面早期投资者是你需要的内容。
But then when you start to get some traction, then you're showing to codify and actually document what I call more foundational content.
但是，当你开始获得一些关注时，你就会展示出如何编纂并实际记录我所说的更基础的内容。
Because if you're pre-product market fit, you're probably small enough that you just can tell everybody all the things.
因为如果你是产品前的市场契合者，那么你的规模可能足够小，可以告诉每个人所有的事情。
You don't have to send them the packet or have them sit in the onboarding.
您不必向他们发送数据包或让他们参加入职培训。
But the minute that you're starting to get any kind of hiring speed, you're going to want to document it more and you're going to want to start to put some very lightweight processes of how you get things done in place, because again, you're trying to replicate velocity.
但是，一旦你开始获得任何形式的招聘速度，你就会想要更多地记录它，并且你会想要开始制定一些非常轻量级的流程来说明如何完成工作，因为同样，你正在尝试复制速度。
It's easy when you're all in one room and everyone knows like, "Oh, this is the most important thing to get done today," hack, hack and hacking away.
当你们都在一个房间里并且每个人都知道“哦，这是今天要完成的最重要的事情”时，这很容易，黑客，黑客，黑客。
But then pretty quickly, that is not going to be the case.
但很快，情况就不再是这样了。
Lenny: I definitely want to go one layer deeper on that, but there's this area I wanted to get to before we dive into some of the weeds around that, which is I found it really interesting that you started your book with this idea of personal operating principles versus here's how the company should work.
莱尼：我确实想更深入地探讨这一点，但在我们深入探讨这方面的一些杂草之前，我想先讨论这个领域，我发现这真的很有趣，你以个人运营原则的想法开始你的书，而不是公司应该如何运作。
It starts with here's how you should think about yourself.
首先，您应该如何看待自己。
So I want to go...
所以我想去...
There's four of them...
他们有四个人...
But before I get into them, can you just describe what is the idea of a personal operating principle and why is that important?
但在我开始讨论之前，您能简单描述一下个人操作原则的概念是什么以及为什么它很重要吗？
Claire Hughes Johnson: Remember the book is about two things, company building and company structures, and all that, replicating all that good step and management.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：请记住，这本书是关于两件事的，公司建设和公司结构，以及所有这些，复制所有好的步骤和管理。
So the other thing that the book is really about is management tactical guides to...
因此，这本书真正涉及的另一件事是管理战术指南……
It would be easy to build companies if there weren't humans involved, right?
如果没有人类参与，建立公司会很容易，对吧？
But there's humans and they're complicated, and I'm complicated and you're complicated.
但人类很复杂，我很复杂，你也很复杂。
And there are things that motivate us.
有些事情可以激励我们。
There are things that demotivate us.
有些事情会让我们失去动力。
They're not the same things, though Lenny and I, I think you and I have some things in common, but point is the book starts with you.
它们不是同一件事，尽管莱尼和我，我认为你和我有一些共同点，但重点是这本书从你开始。
And I think a lot of people think management starts with the team, or even the company.
我认为很多人认为管理是从团队甚至公司开始的。
And actually, I think founders make this mistake.
事实上，我认为创始人犯了这个错误。
Founders think, well, it starts with my product.
创始人认为，好吧，这要从我的产品开始。
And yeah, but it actually starts with you.
是的，但这实际上是从你开始的。
And so the book starts with sort of my belief system, which is self-awareness, which is the first operating principle.
因此，这本书从我的信仰体系开始，即自我意识，这是第一个操作原则。
Self-awareness to build mutual awareness is actually the most fundamental thing you need to crack if you're going to succeed at company building or management, in my opinion.
在我看来，如果你想在公司建设或管理方面取得成功，建立相互意识的自我意识实际上是你需要解决的最基本的问题。
Claire Hughes Johnson: But I would say I'm one of those people who has strong opinions that are pretty loosely held.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：但我想说，我是那些持有强烈观点但持有相当松散观点的人之一。
This one is a strong opinion strongly held, which is the more that you can seek feedback, seek to understand your motivators, your strengths, your blind spots, your tendencies, and take that on board and expose it to others, you're going to be a much more effective company builder and manager.
这是一种强烈持有的观点，也就是说，你越能寻求反馈，寻求了解你的动机、你的优势、你的盲点、你的倾向，并将其纳入其中并向他人展示，你将成为一名更有效的公司建设者和管理者。
So it starts with you.
所以一切从你开始。
And those operating principles that I articulate are sort of mine, but they're also foundational to the content of the whole book.
我阐述的那些操作原则是我自己的，但它们也是整本书内容的基础。
I do think authentic leaders tend to have their own, right?
我确实认为真正的领导者往往有自己的领导者，对吧？
Lenny, you probably have a few that you...
莱尼，你可能有一些...
You maybe have not articulated them all out loud, but I do have mine and they're in the book, but I think you would also find that some of them you could adopt.
你可能没有把它们全部大声说出来，但我确实有我的，它们在书中，但我想你也会发现其中一些你可以采用。
If you were looking for were some to start to use as a leader, I would hope that I've put forward a couple that might be useful.
如果您正在寻找一些可以开始用作领导者的人，我希望我提出了一些可能有用的建议。
Lenny: I want to talk about these four, but while you're on that topic, what are ways to help crystallize your own operating principles?
Lenny：我想谈谈这四个，但是当你谈论这个话题时，有什么方法可以帮助你具体化自己的运营原则呢？
What advice would you give people to do this?
您会给人们什么建议来做到这一点？
Because to your point, people probably have them in their head, but they haven't really written them out.
因为就你的观点而言，人们可能已经把它们记在脑子里了，但他们并没有真正把它们写下来。
Claire Hughes Johnson: That's right, they haven't.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的，他们没有。
The book has an exercise that I recommend in it that's a little bit more about crystallizing your personal values, but that's kind of the place you want to start.
我推荐这本书中有一个练习，更多的是关于具体化你的个人价值观，但这正是你想要开始的地方。
And it's essentially there's a whole menu, and you can find these online, of say 70 or 80 different values.
本质上有一个完整的菜单，你可以在网上找到这些菜单，其中有 70 或 80 个不同的值。
And by values, I mean family, ambition, impact competition.
我所说的价值观是指家庭、野心、影响力竞争。
People value education.
人们重视教育。
People value different things differently, by the way.
顺便说一句，人们对不同事物的评价不同。
And there's no judgment.
而且没有任何判断力。
You might value being a very competitive person and I might value collaboration above competitiveness, and that's fine.
你可能看重成为一个非常有竞争力的人，而我可能看重合作胜过竞争，这很好。
We probably would both be very effective in a team for different reasons, right?
由于不同的原因，我们在团队中可能都会非常高效，对吗？
So basically if you take a list of values and you say, okay, if I had to pick 10 of these that matter to me, then if I had to pick five of them, and then you really force yourself if I had to only pick three of them...
所以基本上，如果你列出一个价值观，然后你说，好吧，如果我必须选择其中 10 个对我来说重要的值，那么如果我必须选择其中 5 个，然后如果我只需要选择其中 3 个，那么你真的会强迫自己......
Claire Hughes Johnson: And it's actually good to have this in a dialogue with someone that you work with or well, and you sort of had to explain, well, why?
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：在与你共事或关系好的人的对话中进行这一点实际上很好，你必须解释一下，嗯，为什么？
Why, when I'm really pushed, do I have to hold on to say education or learning as a value?
为什么当我真的受到压力时，我必须坚持说教育或学习是一种价值观？
Or why do I have to hold on to integrity as a value?
或者为什么我必须坚持诚信作为一种价值观？
And I tell a story in the book about a manager I worked with where transparency was a very important value to him.
我在书中讲述了一个与我共事的经理的故事，透明度对他来说非常重要。
And the thing is you usually have a story behind that value, right?
问题是你通常在这个价值背后有一个故事，对吧？
And in the book, I use the name Eli for him.
在书中，我用伊莱这个名字来称呼他。
Eli ends up sharing this story at this offsite that we had.
伊莱最终在我们的异地分享了这个故事。
And the transparency value actually was a little bit problematic to manage because Eli would tell everyone everything, including his team, even when we weren't finished with the plan, right?
透明度值实际上管理起来有点问题，因为伊莱会告诉每个人一切，包括他的团队，即使我们还没有完成计划，对吗？
But Eli got up and told a story of being younger, like seven or eight, and realizing his mother was very sick, and no one really told him what was going on.
但伊莱站起来，讲述了一个年轻的故事，他七八岁的时候，意识到他的母亲病得很重，但没有人真正告诉他发生了什么事。
Claire Hughes Johnson: And then unfortunately watching the process of her dying and then being taken out to lunch by his stepfather and told, "Your mother is gone." And okay, well, your whole worldview kind of explodes when you hear that, and you're like, oh, okay, this transparency thing is really real.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：然后不幸地看到她去世的过程，然后被继父带出去吃午饭，并告诉他，“你的母亲去世了。”好吧，当你听到这个消息时，你的整个世界观都会爆炸，你会想，哦，好吧，这种透明度确实是真实的。
This was a formative experience for him and it has changed how he operates, and it will probably have changed it for his whole life.
这对他来说是一次塑造性的经历，它改变了他的行事方式，而且很可能会改变他的一生。
And if you can get to that point on your own, of telling yourself, what was the story?
如果你能自己做到这一点，告诉自己，故事是什么？
What was the thing that made this so important to me?
是什么让这对我如此重要？
Then you're starting to be in a mode of self-discovery and then you're starting to document, okay, if these are my three top values, and here's why.
然后你开始处于自我发现的模式，然后你开始记录，好吧，如果这些是我的三个最高价值观，这就是原因。
And then I think what you want to look for are my, what I would call my work style tendencies?
然后我想你想寻找的是我的，我称之为我的工作风格倾向？
And so you get your values, and then you sort of go on a...
所以你得到了你的价值观，然后你就继续......
I'm sorry, I could go on about .
抱歉，我可以继续说下去。
I warned you.
我警告过你。
I wrote a book about this.
我写了一本关于这个的书。
Claire Hughes Johnson: But basically, all these work style assessments, Myers-Briggs, DISC, Enneagram, you name it.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：但基本上，所有这些工作风格评估，迈尔斯-布里格斯、DISC、九型人格，凡是你能想到的。
And by the way, I would take all of them because I find that very good.
顺便说一句，我会全部接受，因为我发现这非常好。
I mean some of it's just data.
我的意思是其中一些只是数据。
You're just taking on data.
你只是在获取数据。
But a lot of them come down to are you introverted or extroverted?
但其中很多问题都归结为你是内向还是外向？
Are you more introverted or extroverted?
你比较内向还是外向？
Where are you on that continuum?
你在这个连续体上处于什么位置？
And are you more task, if you kind of picture a horizontal and a vertical, are you more task or people oriented?
如果你想象一下水平和垂直，你是更注重任务还是以人为本？
And so I would take your values, and then I would plot yourself.
所以我会采用你的价值观，然后我会策划你自己。
Am I a more extroverted task-oriented person, which means you're kind of a director, get what done kind of person?
我是不是一个比较外向、以任务为导向的人，这意味着你是那种导演、完成任务的人？
Or am I a more extroverted people-oriented person, which might mean actually you're probably great at being very charismatic and building some followership and maybe selling a vision?
或者我是一个更外向、以人为本的人，这可能意味着实际上你可能很擅长表现出超凡的魅力，建立一些追随者，也许还擅长推销愿景？
A lot of salespeople are very extroverted people oriented people.
很多销售人员都是非常外向、以人为本的人。
Claire Hughes Johnson: And then you start to see, okay, if this is my sort of tendency in my default and this is my value system, what are the ways that I operate that really make up who I am and becomes almost a belief system.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：然后你开始看到，好吧，如果这是我默认的倾向，这是我的价值体系，那么我的运作方式是什么，真正构成了我是谁，并几乎成为一种信仰体系。
And my operating principles in the book, one is to build self-awareness, to build mutual awareness.
而我在书中的操作原则，一是建立自我意识，建立相互意识。
Another one is say the thing you think you cannot say.
另一种是说你认为不能说的话。
I think that I've come to believe that often your biggest strength, one, is also your weakness, but two, is something that you don't know is a big strength because it's almost like breathing.
我想我已经开始相信，通常你最大的优势，第一，也是你的弱点，但第二，是你不知道的东西，因为它几乎就像呼吸一样。
For me, saying something actually fairly openly and directly but in a non-threatening way is a thing I do.
对我来说，我会相当公开、直接但不带有威胁性地说出一些话。
John Collison actually once said to me, he's like, "It's so interesting when you give feedback, that can be actually pretty brutal, I leave feeling really optimistic."
约翰·科里森实际上曾经对我说过，他就像是，“当你提供反馈时，这非常有趣，这实际上可能非常残酷，我离开时感觉非常乐观。”
Claire Hughes Johnson: But I don't mean to be brutal, but I think I can sort of unpack and say this thing, like here's my observation, here's going on, and it's not judgmental, it's not threatening, it's actually opening up an opportunity for people.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：但我并不是要残酷，但我想我可以解开并说出这件事，就像这是我的观察，这是正在发生的事情，这不是评判，不是威胁，它实际上为人们提供了机会。
So say the thing you think you cannot say.
所以说你认为你不能说的话。
You would actually find that more of us can do that.
你实际上会发现我们中有更多人可以做到这一点。
And then I come back to distinguish between being a leader and a manager, which is something early in my career, I did not do well, Lenny.
然后我回过头来区分领导者和管理者，这是我职业生涯早期的事情，我做得不好，莱尼。
Lenny: Before we get to that one actually, just to briefly ask you a follow up question, because I love that you're getting through all four here.
莱尼：在我们真正讨论这个问题之前，我想简单地问你一个后续问题，因为我很高兴你能在这里完成所有四个问题。
This is great.
这太棒了。
But I was going to ask, is there something..
但我想问一下，有什么事情吗？
So clearly, you're really good at saying the thing you cannot say, and I love that.
很明显，你真的很擅长说出你不能说的话，我喜欢这一点。
Many people are not good at this.
很多人不擅长这一点。
Lenny: Do you have any tactical advice for someone that is not good at this for how to actually say something uncomfortable?
莱尼：对于那些不擅长表达不舒服的话的人，你有什么战术建议吗？
Claire Hughes Johnson: I think the main thing is, and Fred Kaufman has this in his book, Conscious Business, this concept of a left hand...
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我认为最重要的是，弗雷德·考夫曼在他的《意识商业》一书中提到了左手的概念......
He calls it the left hand column, which is you're in a dialogue with me or you're watching a meeting happen, and you've got a running commentary in your head.
他称之为左栏，即你正在与我对话，或者你正在观看会议的发生，并且你的脑海中有一个连续的评论。
And honestly, some of that stuff is pretty harsh, right?
老实说，其中有些东西相当苛刻，对吧？
You do not want to open your mouth and just say that thing.
你不想张开嘴就说那件事。
But what Fred says is, learn how to detoxify the left-hand column.
但弗雷德说的是，学习如何为左栏排毒。
I would say think about a way to say that thing that you think you can't say.
我想说的是，想想一种方式来表达你认为不能说的事情。
You've filtered yourself out, which I don't like.
你把自己过滤掉了，这是我不喜欢的。
And I want you to think, okay, can I?
我希望你想，好吧，我可以吗？
And I think that the...
而且我认为...
Here are the tricks, a couple of them.
这里有一些技巧，其中有几个。
One is, ask a question.Right?
一是问一个问题，对吧？
A question is not threatening.
提问并不具有威胁性。
By the way, the question could even be, is there something we're not talking about?
顺便说一句，问题甚至可能是，还有什么我们没有谈论的吗？
It feels like to me...
对我来说感觉就像...
And then you own.
然后你就拥有了。
Claire Hughes Johnson: So the next trick is you own it.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：所以下一个技巧是你拥有它。
This is your observation, this is your perception.
这是你的观察，这是你的感知。
This is not a judgment.
这不是一个判断。
I am not saying, "Lenny, I think you really botched that interview." That's not useful.
我并不是说，“莱尼，我认为你真的搞砸了那次采访。”那没有用。
If I said, "Lenny, you know what?
如果我说：“莱尼，你知道吗？
I wonder if you missed an opportunity in that interview.
我想知道你是否错过了那次面试的机会。
Did you feel like you missed an area that..." And then you're kind of curious.
你是否觉得自己错过了某个领域……”然后你有点好奇。
You're like, "What do you mean?" And I'm like, "Well, I'm kind of looking at this with you, and I'm standing next to you and I'm observing it." Right?
你会说，“你什么意思？”我想，“好吧，我和你一起看这个，我站在你旁边，我正在观察它。”正确的？
That's less threatening.
这样威胁性就小了。
So one, ask a question.
所以，问一个问题。
Two, make an observation that you own.
第二，做出你自己的观察。
So if I said, "I feel like there's something we're not talking about, and I wonder..." Oh, I own it.
所以如果我说，“我觉得有些事情我们没有谈论，我想知道......”哦，我拥有它。
"I wonder if it's the fact that these two teams both seem to have the exact same project."
“我想知道这两个团队是否有完全相同的项目。”
Claire Hughes Johnson: I talk in the book about a meeting I was in where it was very clear that we had two teams in conflict, and no one was saying the thing that was really pretty bad.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我在书中谈到了我参加的一次会议，很明显我们有两个团队存在冲突，而且没有人说这件事真的很糟糕。
I was like, this is pretty bad.
我当时想，这太糟糕了。
We have two teams that seem like they both own a piece of work and are in conflict with one another.
我们有两个团队，他们似乎都拥有一项工作，但彼此之间存在冲突。
But I would say if you do those two things, ask a question, own the observation yourself, don't pass a judgment, you will get way farther than you would've ever thought sharing.
但我想说，如果你做了这两件事，提出一个问题，自己拥有观察结果，不要做出判断，你会比你想象的分享走得更远。
And by the way, that sharing, one, there's probably other people who just haven't, can't get it out of their head, and you have ar opened up a door that a lot of others can probably walk through.
顺便说一句，这种分享，可能还有其他人还没有、无法将其从他们的脑海中抹去，而你打开了一扇其他很多人可能可以走过的门。
You're not alone.
你并不孤单。
Lenny: You have this framework, I think you call it being explorer, not a lecturer.
莱尼：你有这个框架，我想你称之为探索者，而不是讲师。
Is that what you just described?
是你刚才描述的吗？
Is that how you describe it?
你是这样描述的吗？
Claire Hughes Johnson: It is.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的。
And to me, what I just talked about was more of a meeting or a conversation scenario, but I think that this...
而对我来说，我刚才讲的更多的是一个会议或者一个谈话场景，但是我认为这……
I'm glad you brought that up.
我很高兴你提出这个问题。
I think this is actually a very fundamental management framework of mine, which is in a one-to-one interaction, your job as the manager...
我觉得这其实是我一个非常基础的管理框架，是一对一的互动，你作为经理的工作……
First of all, too many people think your job as the manager is to be the expert and tell people what to do.
首先，太多人认为你作为经理的工作就是成为专家并告诉人们该做什么。
No, actually, your job is to enable people to be their very damn best on your team.
不，实际上，你的工作是让人们在你的团队中发挥出最好的水平。
And you have to create an environment and a context and provide them information, and then you need to provide them a form of coaching.
你必须创造一个环境和背景并向他们提供信息，然后你需要为他们提供一种辅导形式。
Now, again, I think people start think coaching is lecturing, like let me coach you how to make this Excel model.
现在，我认为人们开始认为辅导就是讲授，比如让我辅导您如何制作这个 Excel 模型。
And sometimes they do.
有时他们会这样做。
Sometimes someone comes to you and says, "Can you exactly show me how to do this thing?"
有时有人来找你说：“你能确切地告诉我如何做这件事吗？”
Claire Hughes Johnson: Fine.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：好的。
But most of management is actually exploring with someone.
但大多数管理实际上是在与某人一起探索。
It is being curious.
这是好奇。
It is saying, "I have seen this pattern of your work.
它是在说：“我见过你工作的这种模式。
Have you seen this pattern?
你见过这个图案吗？
Is there something..." I have a whole other framework which is about hypothesis based coaching.
有没有什么……”我有一个完全不同的框架，它是关于基于假设的辅导。
I think intuition as a word gets kind of a bad rap, and I kind of get why, look, especially if you work with a lot of engineers, which I do.
我认为直觉这个词的名声有点不好，我有点明白为什么，看，特别是如果你和很多工程师一起工作，我就是这么做的。
It's not particularly always data driven, but guess what a scientific hypothesis is?
它并不总是由数据驱动，但猜猜科学假设是什么？
It's a well-informed piece of intuition.
这是一种消息灵通的直觉。
And I think too many managers wait until they have a million pieces of data to make an observation to someone about an area for improvement.
我认为太多的管理者等到掌握了一百万条数据后才向某人提出有关需要改进的领域的观察。
Instead, I would say take some data, form a hypothesis, and then explore it with the person.
相反，我会说获取一些数据，形成一个假设，然后与该人一起探索它。
Because if you're well intended, which I think any good manager is, I'm bringing up this thing because I'm trying to help you see it and tell me if it's true so that we can both help make it more effective, better.
因为如果你是出于好意，我认为任何优秀的经理都是如此，我会提出这件事，因为我试图帮助你看到它并告诉我它是否属实，以便我们双方都可以帮助使其更有效、更好。
Claire Hughes Johnson: One very light example could be, "I felt like in that meeting...
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：一个非常简单的例子可以是，“我觉得在那次会议上......
How did you feel that presentation went?" And the person sort of says, "It's fine.
你觉得这次演讲进行得怎么样？”那个人会说：“没关系。
I think I got through the material." You say, "Yeah, I felt like you were maybe a little bit nervous.
我想我已经读完了这些材料。”你说：“是的，我觉得你可能有点紧张。
I'm just exploring.
我只是在探索。
Were you..." And by the way, the person could say, "Oh, no, no. No, no, no, no." And then you could back off, or you could say, "Oh, well, maybe it was just me, but I noticed some physical.
你是不是……”顺便说一句，这个人可以说，“哦，不，不。不，不，不，不。”然后你可以退缩，或者你可以说，“哦，好吧，也许只是我，但我注意到了一些身体上的情况。
Your leg was shaking a little bit, your voice, you were kind of repeating yourself." And they're going like, "What?" And you're all you're doing is holding up a mirror...
你的腿有点颤抖，你的声音有点重复。”他们会说，“什么？”而你所做的只是举起一面镜子......
And you have to own it.
而且你必须拥有它。
You have to say, "My experience of you in that meeting was that you seemed nervous to me.
你必须说：“在那次会议中我对你的感受是，你对我来说似乎很紧张。
Maybe you were not, but actually maybe this is just a physical coaching thing."
也许你不是，但实际上这可能只是体能训练的事情。”
Claire Hughes Johnson: Have you ever had that?
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：你有过这样的经历吗？
I have a few people on my teams who do this weird thing.
我的团队中有一些人做了这种奇怪的事情。
This is pre virtual world, but when they're sort of getting it uncomfortable in a meeting, they put back their chair up off the table, sort of exit the circle.
这是前虚拟世界，但是当他们在会议中感到不舒服时，他们会将椅子从桌子上移开，有点退出圈子。
And that is a very physically big statement.
这是一个非常大的物理声明。
And they had no idea, Lenny.
他们不知道，莱尼。
They had no idea.
他们不知道。
I'm just watching the meeting, and I'm like, oh my gosh, you're like four feet from the rest of the group because you do not like this topic.
我只是在观看会议，我想，天哪，你离其他人只有四英尺远，因为你不喜欢这个话题。
And what I need to explore with you is how do you vocalize that instead of physically exiting the room or exiting the circle?
我需要和你一起探讨的是，你如何用声音表达出来，而不是亲自离开房间或退出圆圈？
These are just examples.
这些只是示例。
Sorry, I could keep going.
抱歉，我可以继续。
But I really think that that attitude of exploration and mutual sort of collaborative, let's discover some things about you...
但我真的认为这种探索态度和相互协作，让我们发现一些关于你的事情......
Claire Hughes Johnson: And by the way, it can be mutual.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：顺便说一下，这可以是相互的。
They can go right back at you and say, "Well, I observe this." Great.
他们可以直接回头对你说：“好吧，我观察到了这一点。”伟大的。
Great.
伟大的。
I've interviewed a lot of people for the book, different leaders and managers from lots of different fields, but one of them was Reid Hoffman, who's a more typical.
我为这本书采访了很多人，来自不同领域的不同领导者和管理者，但其中一个是雷德霍夫曼，他是一个比较典型的人。
But Reid, we were talking about the other operating principle, which is management versus leadership.
但是里德，我们谈论的是另一个运营原则，即管理与领导力。
And Reid was pretty honest.
里德很诚实。
He's like, "Look, I'm more of a leader.
他就像是，“看，我更像是一个领导者。
I'm not a manager." He's like, "I'm not a great manager." And then he told me the story.
我不是经理。”他说，“我不是一个伟大的经理。”然后他给我讲了这个故事。
He's like, he had in his first company that he was building, he had a guy that he'd hired who was more operational.
他就像，在他正在建立的第一家公司中，他雇用了一个更具运营能力的人。
And Reid was sort of making an observation to him about something they should do, and the guy goes to him, "Reid, I wouldn't hire you to manage McDonald's."
里德正在向他观察他们应该做的事情，那家伙对他说：“里德，我不会雇用你来管理麦当劳。”
Claire Hughes Johnson: And Reid was like, "Okay, good.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：里德说，“好吧，很好。
So tell me what we need to do so we can fix this thing." But what actually Reid's operating principle, interestingly when unearthed that whole thing, was that he prides...
所以请告诉我我们需要做什么才能解决这个问题。”但有趣的是，当里德发现整个事情时，他的真正运作原理是他感到自豪......
It's very important to him to create an environment of open feedback.
对他来说，创造一个开放反馈的环境非常重要。
He said, what I love about that story, yeah, it's funny and embarrassing, but actually that guy was comfortable saying to me, "I wouldn't trust you to manage a McDonald." And I think that actually I found inspiring because I don't think everybody who founded a company or who's managing someone has created an environment with how much trust in it, right?
他说，我喜欢这个故事，是的，它既有趣又尴尬，但实际上那个人很轻松地对我说：“我不相信你能管理一家麦当劳。”我认为这实际上很鼓舞人心，因为我不认为每个创办公司或管理某人的人都创造了一个对其有多大信任的环境，对吗？
And that's how Reid thinks he gets a lot of stuff done, is people just come right back at him with the feedback.
这就是里德认为他完成很多事情的方式，人们直接向他提供反馈。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Dovetail, the customer insights platform for teams that gets you from data to insights fast, no matter the method.
Lenny：本集由 Dovetail 为您带来，Dovetail 是一个面向团队的客户洞察平台，无论采用何种方法，都可以让您快速从数据获得洞察。
There's so much customer data to get through from user interviews to NPS, sales calls, usability tests, support tickets, app reviews.
从用户访谈到 NPS、销售电话、可用性测试、支持票证、应用程序评论，需要获取大量客户数据。
It's a lot.
很多。
And you know that if you're building something, hidden in that data are the insights that will lead you to building better products.
而且您知道，如果您正在构建某些东西，则隐藏在数据中的见解将引导您构建更好的产品。
And that's where Dovetail can help.
这就是 Dovetail 可以提供帮助的地方。
Dovetail allows you to quickly analyze customer and data from any source and transform it into evidence-based insights that your whole team can access.
Dovetail 允许您快速分析来自任何来源的客户和数据，并将其转化为整个团队都可以访问的基于证据的见解。
If you're a product manager who needs insights to motivate your team, a designer validating your next pick feature, or a researcher who needs to analyze fast, Dovetail is the collaborative insights platform your whole team can use.
如果您是需要洞察力来激励团队的产品经理、验证下一个选择功能的设计师，或者需要快速分析的研究人员，Dovetail 是整个团队都可以使用的协作洞察平台。
Go to dovetailapp.com/lenny to get started today for free.
立即前往 dovetailapp.com/lenny 免费开始使用。
That's dovetailapp.com/lenny.
那是 dovetailapp.com/lenny。
Lenny: So we've done three of the operating principles that you personally use, which I love.
莱尼：所以我们已经完成了您个人使用的三个操作原则，我很喜欢。
I love that you're going to going through
我喜欢你将要经历的
Claire Hughes Johnson: Distinguish management and leadership is the third one, yep.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：区分管理和领导力是第三个，是的。
Lenny: And then just to summarize real quick, the second one was to say the thing that you cannot say.
莱尼：然后快速总结一下，第二个是说你不能说的事情。
The first one was-
第一个是——
Claire Hughes Johnson: Say the thing you think you cannot say, yeah.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：说你认为你不能说的话，是的。
Lenny: And then first, build self-awareness to build mutual awareness.
莱尼：首先，建立自我意识以建立相互意识。
Lenny: And what's cool is you're sharing all these amazing stories and tactics.
莱尼：最酷的是你正在分享所有这些令人惊奇的故事和策略。
In the book, you actually have templates to do each of these things for yourself.
在书中，您实际上有模板可以自己完成这些事情。
So a lot of this is pointers too.
所以其中很多也是指针。
If you actually want to do this, go check out the book and you can actually do this.
如果你真的想这样做，去看看这本书，你实际上可以做到这一点。
It's not just in a bunch of high level stuff.
它不仅仅存在于一堆高级的东西中。
And then the fourth is-
然后第四个是——
Claire Hughes Johnson: Come back to the operating system.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：回到操作系统。
Claire Hughes Johnson: So this one is, sort of like I was talking about, touchstone documents that you might create for your company.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：所以，这有点像我所说的，您可能为您的公司创建的试金石文件。
This is our operating principles, our values.
这是我们的经营原则，我们的价值观。
This is my touchstone, which is I think that especially high growth environments, but every environment you operate in can get really chaotic, and there's a lot of ambiguity.
这是我的试金石，我认为特别高增长的环境，但你所处的每个环境都可能变得非常混乱，并且存在很多模糊性。
There's a lot of stuff you don't know, and it's kind of easy to get paralyzed or to sort of give into the chaos.
有很多东西你不知道，而且很容易陷入瘫痪或陷入混乱。
And you're like, oh my gosh, I don't know what this day is going to bring.
你会说，天哪，我不知道这一天会发生什么。
I'm just going to randomly assign some stuff, and I'm just going to get through it.
我只是随机分配一些东西，然后我就会完成它。
And all you're doing in a lot of those moments is creating more chaos.
在很多时候，你所做的就是制造更多的混乱。
And I think a really important role of definitely managers, but some leaders too is to create a stability when there doesn't feel like there's a lot that's stable.
我认为管理者的一个非常重要的角色，但有些领导者也确实是在感觉没有很多稳定的情况下创造稳定。
Claire Hughes Johnson: And where stability comes from is in ritual and in common practices that you share.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：稳定的来源在于你们共同的仪式和共同做法。
So we set quarterly goals or monthly goals.
所以我们设定季度目标或月度目标。
And that's a ritual, and that's a thing we do, and it's actually a source of stability.
这是一种仪式，也是我们所做的事情，它实际上是稳定的源泉。
And yeah, it feels like a process.
是的，这感觉就像一个过程。
It might feel like a way of managing, but it also has a cadence to it.
这可能感觉像是一种管理方式，但它也有节奏。
And I think one of the things that happened is you picture yourself sort of spinning out of control.
我认为发生的事情之一就是你想象自己有点失控。
You think, how do I come back to this is the order I do things, this is how I get decisions made, this is how we make plans, this is how we make decisions.
你想，我如何回到这就是我做事的顺序，这就是我做出决定的方式，这就是我们制定计划的方式，这就是我们做出决定的方式。
Those touchstones are not processes to run the thing.
这些试金石不是运行该事物的流程。
If they're done well, they're stabilizing because they're a common way of approaching that everybody has, so they can at least hold onto that even when all the other stuff is going haywire.
如果他们做得好，他们就会稳定下来，因为他们是每个人都有的一种常见的处理方式，所以即使所有其他事情都陷入混乱，他们至少可以坚持下去。
Claire Hughes Johnson: You've got a customer churning, and you've got a big launch happening the next day, like, oh my God, oh my God.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊（Claire Hughes Johnson）：你的客户流失了，第二天你就发布了一个大型产品，就像，天哪，天哪。
Come back.
回来。
What's our launch?
我们的首发是什么？
How do we launch products?
我们如何推出产品？
We have a way of doing that.
我们有办法做到这一点。
We do not need to spin out of control and reinvent the wheel here, right?
我们不需要在这里失控并重新发明轮子，对吧？
And that's a stabilizing thing.
这是一件稳定的事情。
And the other thing on come back to the operating system for me was, as my career scaled, as I went from a individual contributor, to managing a small team, to managing a bigger team, to managing multiple teams, to managing managers, you get it, I realized actually, and I started to have multiple functions.
对我来说，回到操作系统的另一件事是，随着我职业生涯的扩展，当我从个人贡献者，到管理一个小团队，到管理一个更大的团队，到管理多个团队，到管理经理，你明白了，我实际上意识到，我开始拥有多种职能。
So I was context switching between...
所以我在……之间进行上下文切换。
At Google, there was a point where I had some product people, industrial design operations, really BD, really different functions.
在谷歌，有一段时间我有一些产品人员、工业设计运营人员、真正的 BD、真正不同的职能。
Actually, how I fundamentally ran them at the bare bones, at the house architecture level was the same.
事实上，我从根本上在房屋建筑层面上运行它们的方式是相同的。
Claire Hughes Johnson: And that gave me a stability as a leader where I would dive into a meeting.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：这给了我作为领导者的稳定性，我可以投入到会议中。
I'd be like, all right, let's look at the metrics that matter.
我想，好吧，让我们看看重要的指标。
We all had...
我们都有过...
We had them for every team.
我们为每个团队都配备了它们。
Let's look at the goals we set.
让我们看看我们设定的目标。
And that also helps you stabilize when your contact switching between seven different projects or seven different teams.
当您的联系人在七个不同的项目或七个不同的团队之间切换时，这也可以帮助您保持稳定。
And so I wouldn't say it's the operating principle that I talk about the most, but I think if you were like, "What's your sort of...
所以我不会说这是我谈论最多的操作原则，但我想如果你是这样的，“你是什么样的......
How do you scale yourself?" I would say, "Well, I actually have a common operating system like a computer, and that is how I maintain a sense of stability."
你如何衡量自己？”我会说，“嗯，我实际上有一个像计算机一样的通用操作系统，这就是我保持稳定感的方式。”
Lenny: Perfect segue to the next kind of broad area I want to spend time on, which is this house metaphor and the three components of it that you talked about.
莱尼：完美地过渡到我想花时间讨论的下一个广泛领域，这就是这个房子的隐喻以及你谈到的它的三个组成部分。
And this is like the core of the book.
这就像这本书的核心。
Can you talk about again, the three kind of pillars of this house structure?
你能再谈谈这个房子结构的三种支柱吗？
And then let's just go through each of these things.
然后让我们逐一讨论这些事情。
Claire Hughes Johnson: Yeah, it's definitely, the beginning of the book is about company building, and the company structure chapter is all about the sort of supporting beams, the mechanicals, and then the foundational stuff.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的，确实如此，这本书的开头是关于公司建设的，公司结构章节都是关于支撑梁、机械装置，然后是基础知识。
And interestingly, it's sort of, well, I guess when you build a house, you build the foundation first.
有趣的是，我想当你建造一座房子时，你首先要打好地基。
So one is the founding documents that you might create, which I'm happy to talk about.
其中之一是您可能创建的基础文件，我很乐意谈论它。
And then another are the supporting structures, which are some of the ways you do things we talked, like quarterly business reviews or OKRs, or how you use planning to create a structure that everyone...
另一个是支持结构，这是你做我们谈论的事情的一些方式，比如季度业务审查或 OKR，或者你如何使用计划来创建一个每个人都可以......
And then the mechanicals are what I might call the operating cadence, which is essentially the rhythm of how you work, right?
然后，机械装置就是我所说的操作节奏，这本质上就是你工作的节奏，对吗？
The calendar, the year that we all experience tends to dictate a little bit how we work.
日历，我们所有人经历的年份，往往会在一定程度上决定我们的工作方式。
Mondays feel different than Sundays, right?
周一和周日感觉不一样，对吧？
Well, companies have that same kind of a cadence, which is often also calendar driven, but also can be event driven.
嗯，公司有同样的节奏，通常也是日历驱动的，但也可以是事件驱动的。
Claire Hughes Johnson: We've talked often at Stripe about how our customer event, which we have called Stripe Sessions, is as important internally as it is for the customers because it's a forcing function for our cadence, how we plan our products, what we want to have achieved by that point, what we want to demonstrate.
Claire Hughes Johnson：我们在 Stripe 经常谈论我们的客户活动（我们称之为 Stripe Sessions）如何在内部和对客户一样重要，因为它对我们的节奏、我们如何规划我们的产品、我们到那时想要实现的目标以及我们想要展示的内容具有强制作用。
And that's true for a lot of companies, but we actually use it in our thinking about our cadence of the year.
对于很多公司来说都是如此，但我们实际上在思考今年的节奏时使用了它。
And actually, we've built this other event that I usually help run, which is an internal event that happens generally about six months before that, which is great because you can demo the stuff you think you want to demo internally.
实际上，我们已经构建了我通常帮助运行的另一个活动，这是一个内部活动，通常在此之前大约六个月发生，这很棒，因为您可以演示您认为想要在内部演示的内容。
You sort of create a cadence of we're going to push ourselves to do some crazy wild stuff, internally demonstrate it, and then see if we can externalize it by the time we hit the customer event.
你创造了一种节奏，我们将推动自己做一些疯狂的事情，在内部进行演示，然后看看我们是否可以在遇到客户活动时将其外部化。
Claire Hughes Johnson: But that is a cadence.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：但这只是一种节奏。
Quarterly business reviews are part of your cadence, et cetera.
季度业务回顾是您节奏的一部分，等等。
So that's the fundamental, but really while I'm trying to do is say, one, I don't think this stuff is super hard.
这是最基本的，但实际上，当我试图做的是，一，我不认为这个东西超级难。
You know this.
你知道这一点。
It's kind of hard work.
这是一项艰苦的工作。
It's just putting it in place, and then actually using it.
它只是将其放置到位，然后实际使用它。
I think where a lot of leadership teams go wrong, especially of young companies, is they experiment with different vehicles to try this stuff.
我认为很多领导团队，尤其是年轻公司的领导团队犯的错误是他们尝试了不同的工具来尝试这些东西。
And then they either don't actually follow them or they throw them out the window after they haven't tried it for very long, and it creates a lot of chaos.
然后他们要么不真正遵循它们，要么在很长时间没有尝试后将它们扔出窗外，这会造成很多混乱。
So I would say do very few things consistently and try to do them well, and then see if they're working for you, and then once a year, maybe think about a revision.
所以我会说，坚持做很少的事情，并努力把它们做好，然后看看它们是否适合你，然后每年一次，也许考虑修改一下。
But don't keep throwing out new things you heard that other companies do.
但不要老是抛弃你听说过的其他公司做的新东西。
And it turns into a weird grab bag of operating stuff.
它变成了一个奇怪的袋子，里面装满了操作的东西。
You're nodding because you've seen this too lot.
你点头是因为你见过太多这样的事了。
Lenny: Yeah, I think a problem I've seen is people think there's going to be this perfect system and process that's going to not have any flaws, and they're always like, "Oh, it's not perfect.
莱尼：是的，我认为我看到的一个问题是人们认为会有一个完美的系统和流程，不会有任何缺陷，但他们总是会说，“哦，它并不完美。
We got to optimize it further." And what I find is it's always just like, this is the best one you can come up with at the time.
我们必须进一步优化它。”我发现它总是就像，这是你当时能想出的最好的一个。
This is the best idea you have now.
这是你现在最好的主意。
There's going to be flaws.
一定会有瑕疵。
Just work around those flaws.
只需解决这些缺陷即可。
But just know there's never going to be the one thing that works.
但要知道，永远不会有唯一一件事是有效的。
Claire Hughes Johnson: There is no one.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：没有人。
There's no perfect org structure, there's no perfect operating approach, there's no perfect, yeah, performance and management and level system.
没有完美的组织结构，没有完美的运营方法，没有完美的绩效、管理和级别系统。
But having one and committing to it is good.
但拥有一个并致力于它是件好事。
And don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
不要让完美成为优秀的敌人。
Lenny: There's another, you mentioned that I thought it'd be fun to talk about, that it's often chaotic at a company.
莱尼：还有一个，你提到我觉得谈论起来很有趣，公司里经常很混乱。
I imagine people think about Stripe from the outset, like, oh, they've got it all figured out, so smooth, just runs like a machine.
我想人们从一开始就想到 Stripe，就像，哦，他们已经把一切都弄清楚了，如此流畅，就像一台机器一样运行。
And I think people look at other successful companies and they're like, man, things are so crazy at our company.
我认为人们在看到其他成功的公司时会想，伙计，我们公司的事情太疯狂了。
This isn't normal.
这不正常。
But I think, you tell me if I'm wrong, most places are crazy and chaotic internally for a long time and often, right?
但我想，你告诉我，如果我错了，大多数地方在很长一段时间内并且经常在内部发生疯狂和混乱，对吧？
Claire Hughes Johnson: Yeah.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的。
There are different kinds of chaos, but it's so true.
混乱有很多种，但这就是事实。
What is that?
那是什么？
There's like a saying.
好像有一句话。
Don't ever believe your best press or your worst press.
永远不要相信最好的媒体或最差的媒体。
It's never as bad as whatever someone's saying it is never as good.
事情永远不会像某人所说的那么糟糕，也永远不会像别人所说的那么好。
It's just normal is not pretty.
这只是正常的，并不漂亮。
It's a lot.
很多。
And that is true.
这是真的。
It's happening everywhere.
这种事到处都在发生。
I used to have a friend who was building a company.
我曾经有一个朋友正在创办一家公司。
We would see each other.
我们会见面的。
We both were from the Boston area, and it's a long story, but we'd end up on the same flight off in Rhode Island, coming back to Boston occasionally for stuff, for family.
我们都来自波士顿地区，这是一个很长的故事，但我们最终会乘坐同一架航班从罗德岛出发，偶尔会回到波士顿处理一些事情，为了家人。
And we'd be in getting yelled at by the passengers because we'd be in the aisle of the airplane comparing notes about stuff that was broken.
我们会被乘客大喊大叫，因为我们会在飞机的过道上比较损坏的东西的记录。
Claire Hughes Johnson: And we had this expression, it was like, oh, and then I picked up the rock, and under that rock were some really ugly, creepy crawlies.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我们有这样的表情，就像，哦，然后我拿起石头，在石头下面有一些非常丑陋、令人毛骨悚然的爬虫。
But that's just like the way it is, is it's never perfect.
但事情就是这样，它永远不会完美。
But I guess I would go back to what I just said about having some stabilizing ways of doing things because that can create, I don't know, I'm not trying for a perception that the thing runs a machine, but more of a, that is a well run thing, right?
但我想我会回到我刚才所说的关于采取一些稳定的做事方式，因为这可以创造，我不知道，我不是在试图让人们感觉这个东西运行着一台机器，但更多的是，这是一个运行良好的东西，对吧？
And how do you create that perception?
你如何创造这种感觉？
Because you adhere to some ways of running things and that are consistent, and it feels better even to the outside, even if there's a lot of chaotic stuff going on.
因为你坚持一些一致的经营方式，即使发生了很多混乱的事情，即使在外面也感觉更好。
Lenny: Coming back to the founding documents, could you just talk about what are in this group of founding documents?
Lenny：回到创始文件，您能简单谈谈这组创始文件都包含哪些内容吗？
And I think even more interestingly, what's a sign that you should invest more time in this area as a startup?
我认为更有趣的是，作为一家初创公司，什么迹象表明您应该在这一领域投入更多时间？
Claire Hughes Johnson: Yeah.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的。
Very classic stuff is in here, nothing that you haven't seen or examples of.
这里有非常经典的东西，没有你没见过或没有的例子。
So one is I think it's good to have a mission.
一是我认为有使命是件好事。
When I joined Stripe, we did not.
当我加入 Stripe 时，我们并没有这样做。
It came to be apparent that to increase the GDP of the internet was probably the mission, because people kept repeating that back to us, and Patrick had written it on some website copy early on.
很明显，增加互联网的 GDP 可能是我们的使命，因为人们不断向我们重复这一点，而帕特里克很早就把它写在了一些网站副本上。
But it was interesting that candidates and customers kind of grabbed it.
但有趣的是，候选人和客户都抓住了它。
It was very Stripe because it's a little bit intellectual and pointy headed and aspirational, but also it is...
这是非常条纹的，因为它有点知识分子、尖锐的头脑和雄心勃勃，但它也是……
The GDP does involve economic progress, which we're all about, right?
GDP确实涉及经济进步，这是我们所关心的，对吧？
We're building infrastructure for commerce and payments for not just the internet actually.
实际上，我们正在为商业和支付建设基础设施，而不仅仅是互联网。
But anyway, point is have a mission, or at least the beginning of what's your one line of what you're seeking to accomplish.
但无论如何，重要的是要有一个使命，或者至少是你要实现的目标的开始。
Claire Hughes Johnson: And then I'm a big fan of writing sort of what we Stripe called our long-term goals, which were just not our short distance, but our longer distance, like why did we exist?
Claire Hughes Johnson：然后我非常喜欢写一些我们 Stripe 所说的长期目标，这些目标不是我们的短距离，而是我们的较长距离，比如我们为什么存在？
And so the mission is one line, so you need a little more meat behind that, right?
所以任务是一行，所以你需要更多的内容，对吗？
And actually, I think if you looked at our long-term goals, which by the way I thought would be a three to five year goal, I would say they're still relevant today.
事实上，我认为如果你看看我们的长期目标，我认为这将是一个三到五年的目标，我会说它们今天仍然具有现实意义。
But one of Stripe's long term goals is to advance the state of the art and developer tools, which would not be something that everybody, especially every customer of would initially call out.
但 Stripe 的长期目标之一是提升最先进的技术和开发工具，这并不是每个人，尤其是每个客户最初都会呼吁的。
But when you think about it...
但当你想一想...
Lenny, you just did it.
莱尼，你刚刚做到了。
You think about it for a minute, you're like, yeah, the API and the docs and a lot of stuff that we've open sourced, Stripe cares.
你想一想，你会想，是的，API 和文档以及我们开源的很多东西，Stripe 都很关心。
Claire Hughes Johnson: Our forever user is fundamentally a developer.
Claire Hughes Johnson：我们永远的用户从根本上来说是开发人员。
It's the person who's integrating Stripe, right?
是整合 Stripe 的人，对吗？
By the way, simple integration, complex integration, anywhere in between, we really care about their experience, and we care that the tools are excellent, because how are you going to increase the GDP of the internet if you don't advance the state of the art of developer tools?
顺便说一句，简单的集成，复杂的集成，介于两者之间的任何地方，我们真的很关心他们的体验，我们关心这些工具是否优秀，因为如果你不提高开发人员工具的技术水平，你将如何增加互联网的 GDP？
Right?
正确的？
Anyway, point is articulating that, because until I said that to you and I could talk about it with you and say you came to work at Stripe, you might not understand why we invested in certain things or why it meant so much to us in terms of our user experience and the mission.
无论如何，重点是阐明这一点，因为直到我对你说这句话，我可以与你谈论它并说你来 Stripe 工作，你可能不明白为什么我们投资某些东西，或者为什么它对我们的用户体验和使命如此重要。
So articulate those things.
所以说清楚这些事情。
And some of them might be a little bit aspirational, but they should feel at least real enough that you can have that conversation about...
其中一些可能有点令人向往，但它们至少应该让人感觉足够真实，以至于你可以进行这样的对话……
You look at anyone who works in a company, what they choose to do all day with their time should be guided by things like, what are we trying to accomplish?
你看看在公司工作的任何人，他们选择整天做什么应该以这样的事情为指导：我们想要实现什么目标？
Claire Hughes Johnson: What are our long-term goals?
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我们的长期目标是什么？
So if they don't know them, how are they going to make the right choices?
那么，如果他们不了解他们，他们将如何做出正确的选择呢？
So that's one.
这就是其中之一。
And then another is a lot of companies write company values, or at Stripe, we wrote operating principles.
另一个是很多公司都写了公司价值观，或者在 Stripe，我们写了运营原则。
I think you had on, and she talked about these, and we even sort of took a version of ours and put them out for candidates so that they could evaluate, do I want to join this company, because I kind of want to know what it's like to work there?
我想你已经参加了，她谈到了这些，我们甚至采取了我们的一个版本并将其提供给候选人，以便他们可以评估，我想加入这家公司吗，因为我有点想知道在那里工作是什么感觉？
And I think that's really valuable to do because not every company is right for every candidate, and the more you can mutually match the better.
我认为这样做非常有价值，因为并不是每家公司都适合每一位候选人，而且相互匹配的越多越好。
But having some operating principles matters.
但掌握一些操作原则很重要。
I think you can go farther than that, but that's where I would sort of start, is those three things.
我认为你可以走得更远，但这就是我要开始的地方，就是这三件事。
Lenny: Awesome, I like the simplicity of this.
Lenny：太棒了，我喜欢这种简单性。
Claire Hughes Johnson: How you know is people are asking you.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：你怎么知道是人们在问你。
Especially new hires are asking you a lot of questions about what's important, or "Why do we do it this way?" You said it yourself at the beginning.
尤其是新员工会问你很多关于什么是重要的问题，或者“我们为什么这样做？”你一开始就自己说了。
Doesn't writing something down, crystallize it?
把一些东西写下来，不是让它具体化吗？
Time to write it down and crystallize it for everybody who works there.
是时候把它写下来并为在那里工作的每个人具体化了。
Lenny: And just to summarize you as a mission, your operating principle/values.
莱尼：简单概括一下您的使命、您的运营原则/价值观。
What was the third one?
第三个是什么？
Claire Hughes Johnson: And sort of more details on why you exist.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：以及有关您存在原因的更多详细信息。
What are you really trying to accomplish?
你真正想实现什么目标？
Lenny: Interesting.
莱尼：有趣。
And then are those numbers in your experience, or is that a story of what ?
那么这些数字是你的经历吗，或者这是一个什么故事？
Claire Hughes Johnson: Those are a little bit more, I think headlines.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我认为这些是头条新闻。
And I think your shorter term goals have numbers against them, right?
我认为你的短期目标有数字对他们不利，对吗？
So if you looked at your long-term goal, which might be...
所以，如果你看看你的长期目标，这可能是......
Another one of Stripe's is about accelerating globalization, and if you thought about what would that require, that would require us to be in a lot of markets.
Stripe 的另一个目标是加速全球化，如果你考虑一下这需要什么，那就需要我们进入很多市场。
That would require us to have users and customers in a lot of market, and also to eliminate friction across borders.
这需要我们在很多市场拥有用户和客户，并消除跨境摩擦。
So those things, which is a very high friction thing, unfortunately in payments, and moving money, which it shouldn't be if you want to advance globalization, accelerate it, right?
因此，不幸的是，在支付和资金转移方面，这些事情是一个非常高摩擦的事情，如果你想推进全球化，那么它不应该是这样，加速它，对吗？
And so that can then become numerical goals and short term goals.
这样就可以成为数字目标和短期目标。
Lenny: Basically objectives, and then-
莱尼：基本上是目标，然后-
Claire Hughes Johnson: Yeah, it's sort of the longer term objective, and then the key results part is early is shorter term.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的，这是一种长期目标，然后关键结果部分是早期的短期目标。
But actually, if you're having trouble writing your company goals, actually zooming way out and being like, "If we're going to meet this mission, what do we have to accomplish in the long term?" You can then walk back from that and be like, "Oh yeah, every goal we ever have probably fits in these three to five buckets." Bam.
但实际上，如果你在写公司目标时遇到困难，实际上会缩小范围，然后说：“如果我们要完成这个使命，从长远来看，我们必须完成什么？”然后你可以回过头来说，“哦，是的，我们曾经的每一个目标可能都适合这三到五个目标。”嘭。
And then you write your short term goals actually more easily because there's always going to be one about, say, international expansion.
然后你实际上更容易写出你的短期目标，因为总会有一个关于国际扩张的目标。
There's always going to be one about additional products because we're trying to do X, and you can't do it with one product, or whatever.
总会有关于其他产品的产品，因为我们正在尝试做某件事，而你无法仅用一种产品或其他产品来做到这一点。
You can imagine the example.
你可以想象这个例子。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
And I know your book has a actual examples of a lot of this stuff.
我知道你的书中有很多此类内容的实际示例。
Lenny: So again, pointer to that.
莱尼：再次强调这一点。
Okay, so that's the founding documents.
好的，这就是创始文件。
The next piece is operating system.
下一个部分是操作系统。
Maybe we go there, just what fits into an operating system for a company?
也许我们会去那里，看看什么适合公司的操作系统？
What are the components of that?
它的组成部分是什么？
Claire Hughes Johnson: I think a lot of the components we've sort of touched on, which is do you have some sort of goals?
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我认为我们已经触及了很多组成部分，即您有某种目标吗？
This is now goes back what we were just talking about.
这又回到了我们刚才所说的。
For Stripe, we have an annual set of numeric targets that we put together, we have a system of goals or OKRs, objectives and key results, but sort of like what is your structure for setting milestones that you want to achieve, whether they're numeric or more like a binary, we got this thing launched, we didn't?
对于 Stripe，我们有一套年度数字目标，我们有一个由目标或 OKR、目标和关键结果组成的系统，但有点像您设置想要实现的里程碑的结构是什么，无论它们是数字还是更像二进制，我们推出了这个东西，我们没有？
And then QBR, so quarterly business reviews.
然后是 QBR，即季度业务回顾。
How do we review parts of the business?
我们如何审查部分业务？
What is the cadence?
节奏是什么？
Well, first, what is the form by which we do that?
好吧，首先，我们这样做的形式是什么？
Which would be this...
哪个会是这个...
I share examples in the book of this might be the template you fill out if you're a team and your reporting on how it's going and versus your strategy and your goal.
我在本书中分享的示例可能是您在团队中填写的模板，以及您对进展情况以及与您的策略和目标的比较的报告。
Claire Hughes Johnson: And then there's also getting into metrics and dashboards.
Claire Hughes Johnson：然后还涉及指标和仪表板。
What are things that you look at internally to measure progress, the input metrics and the output metrics?
您在内部关注哪些因素来衡量进度、输入指标和输出指标？
And I give some examples of that.
我举了一些例子。
And then mostly, I think there are other...
然后大多数情况下，我认为还有其他......
As I said, there could be less frequent forms you use, like a user event or a launch, a way of launching products, et cetera, but it's really simple.
正如我所说，您可能会使用不太频繁的形式，例如用户事件或发布、发布产品的方式等等，但这非常简单。
It's mostly goals and how do you review the business.
主要是目标以及您如何审查业务。
Planning.
规划。
I talk a lot about planning, which is.
我谈了很多关于计划的事情，就是这样。
You said this earlier, and you and I think both agree, which is there's no perfect process to plan for the next year or the next two years, but you still need to fight your way through having something, especially after a certain stage.
你刚才说过了，我和你都同意，就是没有一个完美的流程来计划明年或未来两年，但你仍然需要通过自己的努力来获得一些东西，尤其是在某个阶段之后。
And every COO I meet with, we sort of ring our hands together.
我遇到的每一位首席运营官，我们都会互相握手。
Claire Hughes Johnson: We're like, oh, planning and everyone hates us, too burdensome, but you still got to keep trying.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我们就像，哦，计划，每个人都讨厌我们，负担太重，但你仍然必须继续尝试。
You got to do it.
你必须这么做。
And so we talk about planning processes and what they might look like and how you set them up.
因此，我们讨论规划流程、它们可能是什么样子以及如何设置它们。
And then that's how you'd use goals and QBR to measure against the plan, right?
然后这就是您如何使用目标和 QBR 来衡量计划，对吗？
So those are some of the operating systems.
这些是一些操作系统。
And then the cadence is just how often do you do these things?
然后节奏就是你多久做一次这些事情？
Actually, one of our big lessons, I think companies that are moving quickly and that are younger tend to resist some of the calendar based cadences of more mature companies because they seem slow.
实际上，我们的重要教训之一是，我认为行动迅速且年轻的公司往往会抵制成熟公司的一些基于日历的节奏，因为它们看起来很慢。
You're like, really?
你真的像这样吗？
You're going to just achieve that goal in three months?
你打算在三个月内实现这个目标吗？
Or are you artificially restricting yourself to some lowest common denominator of time?
或者你人为地将自己限制在某个最低公分母的时间范围内？
And so I get that fear, and I would say your cadence doesn't have to be one quarter or one six month, or even 12 months.
所以我有这种恐惧，我想说你的节奏不一定是一个季度或一个六个月，甚至是 12 个月。
Claire Hughes Johnson: Stripe, we did sort of six month processes for a while.
Claire Hughes Johnson：Stripe，我们有一段时间做了六个月的流程。
So instead of a year, we did it in six months.
所以我们用了六个月而不是一年。
Still, there were things that took, by the way, a year or longer, but I think that play around with the timeframe and don't feel restricted by what other companies do.
顺便说一句，有些事情花了一年或更长时间，但我认为可以调整时间框架，并且不会受到其他公司所做的事情的限制。
But one of our lessons on the QBR was sometimes those quarterly, because that stands for quarterly, those quarterly business reviews were too infrequent, especially for new product areas.
但我们在 QBR 上的教训之一有时是季度审查，因为它代表季度，这些季度业务审查太少了，尤其是对于新产品领域。
They we're still in development.
我们仍在开发中。
They were still getting a lot of feedback, launching a lot.
他们仍然收到了很多反馈，推出了很多产品。
And so we just said, okay, they're not quarterly anymore.
所以我们只是说，好吧，它们不再是季度的了。
They're like every six week business reviews.
它们就像每六周一次的业务回顾。
Fine, change your cadence.
好吧，改变你的节奏。
The point is to have one, because then it's predictable for teams.
关键是要有一个，因为这样对于团队来说是可以预测的。
They know what they're marching toward, they know when they're going to be reporting out, and they can set their goals in a way that makes sense to make progress in that timeframe.
他们知道他们正在走向什么，他们知道他们什么时候要报告，他们可以以一种有意义的方式设定他们的目标，以便在那个时间范围内取得进展。
Lenny: One quick question there.
莱尼：有一个简单的问题。
What's a sign that your cadence is off?
什么迹象表明你的节奏已经停止？
What's a flag that we should go shorter or longer?
我们应该走得更短或更长的标志是什么？
Claire Hughes Johnson: Well, everyone usually complains about these things, but I think if the...
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：嗯，每个人通常都会抱怨这些事情，但我认为如果......
One, nothing, like you said, it's probably too fast if not enough progress is being made in between whatever your review or your reporting function is, and it's probably too slow if the content you're reviewing seems stale.
一，没有什么，就像你说的，如果你的审查或报告功能之间没有取得足够的进展，那么它可能太快了，如果你正在审查的内容看起来陈旧，那么它可能太慢了。
And you're like, "Well, we knew this," or "We already did that thing," or "Yeah, we already had the meeting where we talked about that." That's another thing that's interesting, is some companies will have a pretty frequent metrics review cadence, and then an infrequent strategy review cadence.
你会说，“好吧，我们知道这一点”，或者“我们已经做了那件事”，或者“是的，我们已经开过会议讨论过这个问题了。”另一件有趣的事情是，一些公司会有相当频繁的指标审查节奏，然后很少有策略审查节奏。
And what happens is the metrics review becomes the strategy review because you're not talking about the strategy often enough.
所发生的情况是指标审查变成了策略审查，因为您没有足够频繁地谈论策略。
And so you're talking about it through the data, and so then by the time you get to the strategy review, you're like, we already had this meeting.
所以你通过数据来谈论它，所以当你进行战略审查时，你会觉得我们已经召开了这次会议。
And that's just a sign that some things are just off.
这只是一个迹象，表明有些事情刚刚结束。
And to me, it's about timeliness and freshness of the content, but also that there's actually new content.
对我来说，重要的是内容的及时性和新鲜度，而且还有实际的新内容。
If there's not new content, you're creating work for people.
如果没有新内容，那么你就是在为人们创造工作。
By the way, give them time to work.
顺便说一句，给他们时间工作。
Claire Hughes Johnson: And so I think don't fool yourself that thinking, having more frequent checks on things is going to actually make things run faster.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：所以我认为不要欺骗自己，认为更频繁地检查事物实际上会让事情运行得更快。
I would say that the opposite can be true.
我想说，事实可能恰恰相反。
And so be very wary of actually slowing velocity down by creating overhead.
因此要非常小心，不要因为产生开销而实际减慢速度。
One thing we try to do at Stripe is if we're looking at metrics, let's just look at your dashboard live.
我们在 Stripe 尝试做的一件事是，如果我们要查看指标，那就直接查看您的实时仪表板。
Let's not create a special presentation.
我们不要创建一个特别的演示文稿。
I actually just share your screen please on your dashboard, right?
实际上我只是在您的仪表板上共享您的屏幕，对吧？
Which is a good discipline, because one, that means you have to have a really good dashboard that's real time, that's web accessible.
这是一门很好的学科，因为这意味着您必须拥有一个非常好的实时仪表板，可以通过网络访问。
No one had to pull or massage the data.
没有人需要提取或修改数据。
That's a good sign.
这是一个好兆头。
But it's also, you're not wasting people's time prepping all that information, which happened even...
但同时，你也没有浪费人们的时间来准备所有这些信息，这种情况甚至发生了......
By the way, at Stripe, even when we put that in place, we still ended up with versions of that problem.
顺便说一句，在 Stripe，即使我们将其落实到位，我们仍然会遇到该问题的版本。
Lenny: Yeah, I think mentioned that.
莱尼：是的，我想提到过这一点。
I think there's a term for it, data something, where you randomly get chosen every week and someone has to present your data.
我认为有一个术语，数据某物，每周都会随机选择你，并且必须有人提供你的数据。
Claire Hughes Johnson: The metrics review meeting, yes.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：指标审查会议，是的。
Lenny: And it's like the next day, you're going to have to share your meetings and
莱尼：就像第二天，你将不得不分享你的会议和
Claire Hughes Johnson: Yes.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的。
We called it the spin the wheel, the spin wheel on who gets to present.
我们称其为“旋转轮”，即谁可以演讲的旋转轮。
But that has a logic in it, which is then you're not working.
但这有一个逻辑，那就是你就没有工作。
So just prepare it.
所以只要准备一下就可以了。
Lenny: Right.
莱尼：对。
That's awesome.
太棒了。
I love that policy.
我喜欢这个政策。
There's so much more I want to chat about.
我想聊的还有很多。
There's chapters on hiring, self-development, personal development, all these things.
其中有关于招聘、自我发展、个人发展等等的章节。
Claire Hughes Johnson: There's a, yeah, intentional.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的，这是故意的。
There's a team building.
有一个团队建设。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
Okay, so we could go through all that stuff.
好的，我们可以完成所有这些事情。
Instead, I want to talk about the COO role broadly.
相反，我想广泛地讨论一下首席运营官的角色。
Lenny: I asked on Twitter, preparing for this chat, what people wanted me to ask you about it.
莱尼：我在 Twitter 上问，为这次聊天做准备，人们想让我问你什么。
And most of the questions ended up being about the COO role and things like that.
大多数问题最终都与首席运营官的角色以及类似的事情有关。
So I just have a few questions lined up here for you.
所以我这里有几个问题要问你。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
So Amir , with little accent at the end there, he asked just at what point do companies need a COO, and how would you judge if someone is a fantastic COO?
因此，阿米尔最后几乎没有口音，他问公司在什么时候需要首席运营官，以及您如何判断某人是否是一位出色的首席运营官？
Claire Hughes Johnson: Oh yeah.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：哦，是的。
Well, I would first say most companies, if you looked at the universe of all companies, do not have a COO.
好吧，我首先要说的是，如果你纵观所有公司，大多数公司都没有首席运营官。
I think it's fewer than 20%.
我认为不到20%。
It's definitely fewer than 30.
绝对少于30个。
And I think that's something to know, that I don't think it's an automatic role to have or hire.
我认为这是需要知道的事情，我不认为这是一个自动拥有或雇用的角色。
And I think you see it in more prevalently in earlier stage or high growth companies.
我认为这种情况在早期或高增长公司中更为普遍。
You also, by the way, see it in certain business models.
顺便说一句，您也在某些商业模式中看到了这一点。
I actually think Apple was an interesting version of this, where Steve Jobs was oriented in terms of product and design, but also that Apple has...
事实上，我认为苹果公司是一个有趣的版本，史蒂夫·乔布斯以产品和设计为导向，而且苹果公司...
It's very intense to manufacture software and hardware that then works together.
制造然后协同工作的软件和硬件是非常紧张的。
I learned that when I worked on self-driving cars at Google, and you need a very intensely operational, detailed manufacturing, hit the marks, hit the timelines person.
当我在谷歌研究自动驾驶汽车时，我了解到，你需要一个非常严格操作、详细制造、达到目标、按时完成任务的人。
So I think some businesses that have a very deeply operational, say a manufacturing component, that role might be more prevalent.
因此，我认为一些运营非常深入的企业（例如制造部门）的角色可能会更普遍。
Claire Hughes Johnson: But point is, it's not an automatic.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：但重点是，它不是自动的。
I think it's useful in a high growth...
我认为这对于高速增长很有用...
In an environment where you're having...
在一个环境中，你有...
Think about the founder/CEO of a company that is achieving product market fit and also having to build a company, and hire all the leaders.
想想一家公司的创始人/首席执行官，该公司正在实现产品市场契合，还必须建立一家公司，并雇用所有领导者。
That is a lot because you are building the product and the business, you are building the company, and you are building all the people, bringing them all in.
这是很多，因为你正在构建产品和业务，你正在构建公司，你正在构建所有的人，将他们全部引入。
And that is where I think a COO type of role can give you leverage, which is...
这就是我认为首席运营官类型的角色可以给你带来影响力的地方，那就是……
Essentially, it's a layer that takes some of those functions and helps build them with you and on your behalf, and also in some cases, bring some experience in maybe there's a particular function like go to market that needs to be built.
从本质上讲，它是一个需要其中一些功能并帮助您与您一起构建它们并代表您构建它们的层，并且在某些情况下，还可以带来一些经验，因为也许需要构建诸如进入市场之类的特定功能。
And I think that's where you see it come up.
我想这就是你看到它出现的地方。
What I've said to some people recently is I'm a little worried, just like there's a mythical founder, that there's some mythical silver bullet COO hire that everyone's like, "I will just find that person."
我最近对一些人说的是，我有点担心，就像有一个神话般的创始人一样，有一些神话般的灵丹妙药首席运营官招聘，每个人都喜欢，“我会找到那个人。”
Claire Hughes Johnson: And first of all, we're all human beings.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：首先，我们都是人类。
I'm not perfect.
我并不完美。
I certainly did some things well when I joined Stripe, and other things not as well, and I'm working on my self-awareness of what those things are.
当我加入 Stripe 时，我确实在某些事情上做得很好，但在其他事情上则做得不太好，我正在努力提高自己对这些事情的认识。
But I would say one lower risk strategy could be to bring in, say, a head of business operations or a role that's sort of COO like and try a couple of functions with someone and see if they scale with the company and with the role, and then maybe you decide they're a COO.
但我想说，一个较低风险的策略可能是引入业务运营主管或类似于首席运营官的职位，并与某人一起尝试几种职能，看看他们是否能随着公司和职位的扩展而扩展，然后也许你会决定他们是首席运营官。
I mean, I mentioned Stripe's business operations team.
我的意思是，我提到了 Stripe 的业务运营团队。
You could hire a business ops leader and sort of say, "Hey, build this team to help be the Swiss Army knife to help scale the company, and then maybe that turns into more." Or there's some CFOs that are quite operational.
你可以聘请一位业务运营负责人，然后说：“嘿，建立这个团队来帮助成为瑞士军刀，帮助扩大公司规模，然后也许会变得更多。”或者有一些首席财务官的运作能力很强。
They could take on more scope sometimes.
有时他们可以承担更大的范围。
Claire Hughes Johnson: But I think there are other paths to getting that leverage, and there are also ways to de-risk the hire because you could end up searching forever, right?
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：但我认为还有其他途径可以获得这种影响力，也有一些方法可以降低招聘风险，因为你最终可能会永远在寻找，对吧？
And I worry that it's become too much of a panacea in people's minds, like somehow they're going to find...
我担心它在人们心目中已经成为太多的灵丹妙药，就像他们会以某种方式发现......
And people will call me, and they'll be like, "I just need to find you." And I'm like, "One, I may not be right for your company, but two, that was a lot of work, and I think we actually, in the end, maybe got pretty lucky." How would you know someone is fantastic?
人们会给我打电话，他们会说，“我只是需要找到你。”我想，“第一，我可能不适合你们公司，但第二，这需要大量的工作，而且我认为我们实际上最终可能非常幸运。”你怎么知道某人很棒？
Someone said something very smart to me, which was...
有人对我说了一句非常聪明的话，那就是……
I was in a meeting.
我正在开会。
It was me and Patrick.
是我和帕特里克。
So Patrick is the co-founder and CEO of Stripe.
Patrick 是 Stripe 的联合创始人兼首席执行官。
And they said that having just the right amount of tension in our relationship was how you knew it was working for the company.
他们说，只有在我们的关系中保持适当的紧张程度，你才知道这对公司有利。
Claire Hughes Johnson: And it gave us both a little bit of pause, but we ended up having quite a good conversation after that meeting, which is there has to be mutual understanding and trust and an ability for Patrick to say, "Hey, can you go do this thing?" And then believing, I will do it at the level of quality and intensity and intentionality that he would like.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：这让我们都有点停顿，但在那次会议后我们最终进行了一次很好的交谈，这就是必须相互理解和信任，并且帕特里克有能力说：“嘿，你能去做这件事吗？”然后相信，我会按照他想要的质量、强度和意图来做到这一点。
But there also has to be some friction, where I would maybe say, "No, I'm not going to prioritize that.
但也必然存在一些摩擦，我可能会说，“不，我不会优先考虑这一点。
I don't think that's important for the company," or I'm going to give you feedback that I don't think we're doing this well, or he's giving me feedback.
我认为这对公司来说并不重要，”或者我会给你反馈说我认为我们做得不好，或者他会给我反馈。
The customer experience is suffering.
客户体验正在受到影响。
All your scale stuff is degrading this thing, right?
你所有的规模的东西都在贬低这个东西，对吧？
So fantastic is not all hunky dory.
如此美妙的并不全是Hunky Dory。
Fantastic COO is just the right amount of friction intention with forward momentum and mutual trust, because then the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, right?
出色的COO就是恰到好处的摩擦意图，具有前进的动力和相互信任，因为这样整体大于部分之和，对吗？
That's what you're looking for.
这就是您要寻找的。
Lenny: I was actually going to say, I've worked with some founders, and they have this concept that they hire a COO, and they would just solve all these cultural issues they're having these relationship issues.
莱尼：我实际上想说的是，我曾与一些创始人合作过，他们有这样的想法：他们聘请首席运营官，他们会解决所有这些文化问题，他们遇到这些关系问题。
And sounds like that's exactly what you're saying, is that that is not often the solution to some of these deeper issues.
听起来这正是您所说的，这通常不是解决某些更深层次问题的方法。
Claire Hughes Johnson: Well, that would be the other problem, is actually believing...
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：嗯，这将是另一个问题，实际上是相信......
I was getting recruited, Lenny, and people would...
我正在被招募，莱尼，人们会...
Essentially, I felt like the founders were saying to me, "I'm going to give you all of the things I don't like doing as your job." And I was like, even if I'm by the way not qualify to do all those things, number one.
从本质上讲，我觉得创始人对我说，“我要把所有我不喜欢做的事情都交给你作为你的工作。”我当时想，即使我没有资格做所有这些事情，第一。
And two is sometimes that list would be quite long, and that would make me nervous.
第二个是有时这个清单会很长，这会让我感到紧张。
I was like, "Do you really not running a company actually?
我当时想，“你真的不经营一家公司吗？
Is that what's going on here?" And really, I think they weren't confronting elements of their work that needed to evolve and change.
这就是这里发生的事情吗？”事实上，我认为他们并没有面临工作中需要发展和改变的因素。
And what I loved about joining Stripe was...
我喜欢加入 Stripe 的一点是……
I think people also think, "I'm just going to hand all this stuff to this person and..." I'd love to say I took all this off of the Collisons plate, and Billy and John and the other people who were there at the time, and no, we actually were more collaboratively worked together, and I think it helped...
我想人们也会想，“我只是要把所有这些东西交给这个人，然后……”我很想说，我把所有这些都从科里森的盘子里拿走了，比利和约翰以及当时在场的其他人，不，我们实际上更加合作了，我认为这有帮助……
Claire Hughes Johnson: Well, one, you don't feel as isolated because you're in a team, but also there's more joint work than people realize, I think at least in the companies I'd like to work for.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：嗯，第一，你不会感到孤立，因为你在一个团队中，而且联合工作比人们意识到的要多，我认为至少在我想工作的公司中是这样。
Lenny: For the final 10-ish minutes we have together, and you have to run-
莱尼：在我们在一起的最后 10 分钟左右，你必须跑——
Lenny: ...
莱尼：……
I was thinking I could go through just a rapid fire set of tactical questions and see maybe one piece of advice you would share with someone that's maybe struggling with this thing.
我想我可以快速浏览一系列战术问题，看看也许你会与那些可能在这件事上苦苦挣扎的人分享一条建议。
Lenny: And the first is from a also Twitter person, Manuel .
莱尼：第一个来自推特用户曼努埃尔。
And he just had a question around, as you're scaling, keeping alignment strong is challenging.
他只是有一个问题，当你在扩展时，保持强大的一致性是具有挑战性的。
What would be something you'd recommend to someone that's scaling quickly and trying to keep people aligned?
您会向那些快速扩展并试图让人们保持一致的人推荐什么？
Claire Hughes Johnson: Well, a lot of what we talked about, having common codified documents of what we believe in, how we work, and then using communication practices very intelligently.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：嗯，我们讨论了很多内容，有关于我们的信仰、我们如何工作的共同编纂文件，然后非常明智地使用沟通实践。
Never think that one communication, meaning an email or an all hands, reaches the audience.
永远不要认为一次沟通，即一封电子邮件或全体会议，就能传达给受众。
You have to be smart about how you communicate.
您必须明智地对待沟通方式。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Amazing.
惊人的。
On a different podcast, we talked about how the leaders are often the repeater in chief, just having to repeat the same thing again and again.
在另一个播客中，我们讨论了领导者往往是重复者，只需一次又一次地重复同样的事情。
Claire Hughes Johnson: Yes.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：是的。
And just like a marketer, use different channels.
就像营销人员一样，使用不同的渠道。
Some people read emails, some people watch videos, some people attend the meeting.
有些人阅读电子邮件，有些人观看视频，有些人参加会议。
Repeat.
重复。
Lenny: Love it.
莱尼：喜欢。
That'll be our clip to take away from this.
这将是我们从中摘取的剪辑。
I was watching an interview with you, and you talked about the value of offsites for creating cohesion within a team.
我正在观看对您的采访，您谈到了异地对于在团队内部创造凝聚力的价值。
Can you just talk about why offsites are so important to a company and a team?
您能谈谈为什么异地对于公司和团队如此重要吗？
Claire Hughes Johnson: I think offsite is really a vehicle.
Claire Hughes Johnson：我认为异地确实是一种交通工具。
The concept is the following, which is when you yank people out of their day-to-day routine, you create space, and also you imprint memory.
这个概念如下：当你把人们从日常生活中拉出来时，你就创造了空间，同时也留下了记忆。
And so if you say, "We're going to do a very different thing with your time today or the next two days, we're not going to do our emails, we're not going to do our regular meetings, we are going to sit and work together, we're going to brainstorm," you're basically activating new parts of their brain, and then you're also having a group experience that cements a belief system usually, or a set of plans.
因此，如果你说，“我们将在今天或接下来的两天里用你的时间做一件非常不同的事情，我们不会处理电子邮件，我们不会举行例行会议，我们将坐下来一起工作，我们将集思广益，”你基本上激活了他们大脑的新部分，然后你还获得了通常巩固信仰体系或一套计划的集体体验。
And it also helps bring people along.
它还有助于吸引人们。
We formed this thing together, it's not effective if I say, "I locked myself in a room for three hours, and then I came out and here's the plan." You want to lock yourselves as a group, as a team in a room for three hours.
我们一起形成了这个东西，如果我说“我把自己锁在一个房间里三个小时，然后我出来了，这就是计划”，那是没有效果的。你们想把自己作为一个团队，作为一个团队，锁在一个房间里三个小时。
How do you do that?
你是怎么做到的？
And so that's why I think it's valuable.
这就是为什么我认为它很有价值。
It's just out of time, in a way.
从某种程度上来说，它已经过时了。
You're taking it out of your day-to-day time, and I can't not found a good substitute for that.
你把它从你的日常生活中抽出来了，我找不到一个好的替代品。
Lenny: On a different topic, one of the most common questions I get from product managers and just founders that I haven't tackled yet, and I'm curious what your take is, is around just keeping the company updated on what's happening broadly.
莱尼：关于另一个话题，我从产品经理和创始人那里得到的最常见的问题之一是我还没有解决，我很好奇你的看法是什么，就是让公司了解广泛发生的事情。
Lenny: What have you found works for just keeping people informed on what's happening across the company and-
莱尼：你发现什么可以让人们了解整个公司正在发生的事情，并且——
Claire Hughes Johnson: Having really smart communication practices is something that I think a lot of companies don't invest in early, and it's partly because it feels like extraneous, but it's a lot of time.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我认为很多公司都没有尽早投资于真正明智的沟通实践，部分原因是它感觉像是无关紧要的，但需要很多时间。
If you're going to communicate well, you have to invest in your intranet site and what's on it.
如果您想进行良好的沟通，则必须对您的内部网站及其内容进行投资。
Ideally, everyone logs in and sees information on the homepage of your company internally.
理想情况下，每个人都可以登录并在公司内部查看主页上的信息。
Do you have a newsletter?
你有时事通讯吗？
Do you have founders do like a message or a quick video, whether that's on Slack or email.
您是否有创始人喜欢一条消息或一段简短的视频，无论是在 Slack 还是电子邮件上。
There's a lot of smart tools.
有很多智能工具。
You can learn a lot from social media in some ways, but you actually need a strategy for it, and you need a set of people who help make sure it happens so that again, it creates stability and cadence.
你可以在某些方面从社交媒体中学到很多东西，但你实际上需要一个策略，并且你需要一群人来帮助确保它发生，以便再次创造稳定性和节奏。
And if I want to find information about X, this is where I go.
如果我想查找有关 X 的信息，我就去这里。
And I think there's also that if you do it well, it can replicate down to teams, which is, oh, we have our weekly snippet stock that everybody can see the important news or whatever it is.
我认为，如果你做得好，它可以复制到团队，也就是说，哦，我们有每周的摘要库存，每个人都可以看到重要新闻或其他任何内容。
Claire Hughes Johnson: But you need to create those things because they'll start to spring up, but then you'll have a million of them, and you won't be able to point people to the core messages.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：但你需要创造这些东西，因为它们会开始涌现，但随后你将拥有一百万个，而你将无法向人们指出核心信息。
But it is not a thing to be taken lightly.
但这并不是一件可以掉以轻心的事情。
And I think having someone who really not focuses on internal marketing, I'm talking about just good, "Here's what's important.
我认为有一个真正不专注于内部营销的人，我说的是很好，“这就是重要的。
Here's what you need to know." Sales teams actually do this really well, because they have to, because they have to keep the sellers up to date on the product and up to date on how to pitch it.
这就是你需要知道的。”销售团队实际上在这方面做得非常好，因为他们必须这样做，因为他们必须让卖家了解最新的产品以及如何推销它。
And so it actually is worth talking to smart sort of sales leaders who've scaled and saying, what do you do that keeps everyone on the same page
因此，实际上值得与聪明的销售领导者交谈，他们已经扩大规模并说，你做了什么才能让每个人都保持在同一页面上
Lenny: As you're talking, I realized , who we mentioned a couple times, she left Retool, and she's working at a startup that has trying to solve this problem, I think it's called.
Lenny：正如你所说，我意识到，我们曾多次提到过她，她离开了 Retool，她正在一家初创公司工作，该公司试图解决这个问题，我想这就是所谓的。
It
它
Claire Hughes Johnson: Is a lot about what they're working on.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：很多都是关于他们正在做的事情。
And it's because it is, again, an unsung thing that is critical and that I don't think people naturally come to.
这是因为，这又是一件至关重要的无名之事，我认为人们不会自然而然地意识到这一点。
Lenny: Next question, what are one to two, or maybe three things that people can do to run more effective meetings?
莱尼：下一个问题是，为了召开更有效的会议，人们可以做一到两件事，或者也许三件事？
I say give this masterclass on running more effective meetings.
我说举办这个关于如何召开更有效的会议的大师班。
And just to boil down, what are a couple things people could probably change?
归根结底，人们可能会改变哪些事情？
Claire Hughes Johnson: I do have a video on YouTube about running an effective meeting, but I think the number one thing is the work of a meeting is not calling the meeting.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：我在 YouTube 上有一个关于召开有效会议的视频，但我认为最重要的是会议的工作不是召开会议。
Calling a meeting is easy.
召开会议很容易。
In fact, that is a problem.
事实上，这是一个问题。
The barrier is very low, and it should be higher.
门槛很低，应该更高。
What you really want to know...
你真正想知道的是...
People need to know why are we meeting, and what is the point, what's the objective of this meeting?
人们需要知道我们为什么开会，会议的重点是什么，会议的目标是什么？
Is it to make a decision?
是要做决定吗？
Is it to share information?
是为了分享信息吗？
Who needs to be here?
谁需要在这里？
One of my favorite things to say is make the thing that's implicit explicit.
我最喜欢说的一件事就是让隐含的事情变得明确。
Too many meetings are implicitly about something and not explicit enough.
太多的会议都是含蓄地讨论某件事，而不够明确。
And I'm like, "No, no, no. I want to know why I'm here.
我想，“不，不，不。我想知道我为什么在这里。
Are we making the decision?
我们正在做决定吗？
Who's making the decision?
谁在做决定？
And how?" Even better, you say, "Does anyone not need to be here?
又如何呢？”更好的是，你说：“有人不需要在这儿吗？
Because we'll just send you a note afterwards about what happened?
因为我们稍后会向您发送有关发生的情况的说明？
Right?
对吗？
Make it more efficient, but be really explicit about the point of the meeting, and really do some inquiry on whether it's important, whether it's needed.
提高会议效率，但要真正明确会议的要点，并真正询问会议是否重要、是否需要。
Lenny: Maybe a final question is around decision making.
莱尼：也许最后一个问题是关于决策的。
So product managers who are, a lot of the audience of this podcast, have to, one, make a lot of decisions, get people to alignment, but they also don't classically have authority over anyone.
因此，产品经理（这个播客的很多观众）必须，第一，做出很多决定，让人们保持一致，但他们通常也没有凌驾于任何人之上的权力。
What advice do you have for aligning and decision making?
您对调整和决策有什么建议？
Claire Hughes Johnson: I love product management, so much accountability.
Claire Hughes Johnson：我喜欢产品管理，非常喜欢责任感。
So little authority.
权限这么小。
Such a hard job.
这么辛苦的工作。
Claire Hughes Johnson: Everyone's like, "I want to be a product manager." I'm like, man, that is one of the hardest jobs in tech.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：每个人都会说，“我想成为一名产品经理。”我想，伙计，这是科技行业最难的工作之一。
Claire Hughes Johnson: But anyway, how do you get people to a decision?
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：但是无论如何，你如何让人们做出决定呢？
Claire Hughes Johnson: Actually, it's exactly...
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：实际上，这正是......
And I mentioned in my book, Gokul's SPADE Framework, which you can look up.
我在我的书中提到了 Gokul 的 SPADE Framework，你可以查一下。
He has a coda on it.
他有一个尾声。
But actually, it's the same thing that I said about meetings, which is making it very explicit, that there is a decision to be made, who is making the decision, the criteria by which the decision's going to be made, who will be informed.
但实际上，这与我在会议上所说的一样，这使得它非常明确，需要做出决定，谁在做出决定，做出决定的标准，谁将被告知。
There's all these models.
这些模型都有啊
There's racy and radar, and there's a million different decision models.
有活力和雷达，还有一百万种不同的决策模型。
Just pick one, make it explicit, explain that's what's happening, and get people through it.
只需选择一个，明确说明，解释正在发生的事情，然后让人们度过难关。
Follow the model and do it.
按照模型去做。
And by the way, you can always have an asterisk, which is if we want to revisit this decision, this is what we do.
顺便说一句，你总是可以有一个星号，这意味着如果我们想重新考虑这个决定，这就是我们所做的。
But I think too many teams get paralyzed because they're afraid, like, well, maybe they're not the decision maker, or maybe...
但我认为太多的团队陷入瘫痪，因为他们害怕，也许他们不是决策者，或者也许......
When I say to people at Stripe in our onboarding, I used to run a session, I was like, if you're not sure who the decision maker is, one, it's probably you, and I'd rather you act that way than not because you're going to slow the whole company down.
当我在 Stripe 的入职培训中对人们说时，我曾经举办过一次会议，我当时想，如果你不确定决策者是谁，那么可能就是你，我宁愿你这样做，而不是不这么做，因为你会拖慢整个公司的速度。
Claire Hughes Johnson: But really, I think the other thing is, in the book, I talk about this framework that Bezos uses, type one, type two decisions.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：但实际上，我认为另一件事是，在书中，我谈论了贝佐斯使用的这个框架，类型一，类型二决策。
Is it high impact?
影响力大吗？
Is it irreversible?
是不可逆转的吗？
Is it not?
不是吗？
Really evaluate, what kind of decision is this?
真正评估一下，这是一个什么样的决定？
How hard is it?
有多难？
And then follow a process and get it done.
然后遵循一个流程并完成它。
And don't forget to actually make a decision.
并且不要忘记实际做出决定。
And if you don't know who the decision maker is and you're worried it's not you, just ask.
如果您不知道决策者是谁并且担心不是您，请直接询问。
Don't get stuck.
不要被卡住。
Too many people get stuck, and it makes your work terrible, right?
太多人陷入困境，这会让你的工作变得很糟糕，对吗？
What do we all care about?
我们都关心什么？
Progress, impact, momentum.
进步、影响、动力。
If anything I would say about advice to people generally is be a force for positive momentum, and it will be actually a real career maker.
如果说我对人们的建议有什么的话，那就是成为积极动力的力量，而且它实际上将成为真正的职业创造者。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
Maybe we'll make that the title of this interview.
也许我们会把它作为这次采访的标题。
With that, Claire, I know you have to run.
有了这个，克莱尔，我知道你必须逃跑。
Anyone listening, you got to buy this book.
有人听，你就得买这本书。
Like I've said at the beginning, if you like my newsletter, it's exactly my newsletter, but as a book about operations.
就像我一开始所说的那样，如果你喜欢我的时事通讯，那它就是我的时事通讯，但它是一本关于运营的书。
Lenny: Scaling People.
莱尼：扩大人员规模。
Is there a website they can go to to check it out on Amazon, or is there-
他们是否可以在亚马逊上查看网站，或者是否有-
Claire Hughes Johnson: They can go to press.stripe.com/scaling-people.
Claire Hughes Johnson：他们可以访问 press.stripe.com/scaling-people。
Claire Hughes Johnson: Or Amazon.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：或者亚马逊。
Just search scaling people on Amazon.
只需在亚马逊上搜索“缩放人员”即可。
Claire Hughes Johnson: But thank you, Lenny.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：但是谢谢你，莱尼。
I appreciate it.
我很感激。
Lenny: Absolutely.
莱尼：当然。
Just two final questions.
最后只有两个问题。
Where can folks find you if they want to maybe ask you questions, follow up, reach out?
如果人们想向您提问、跟进或联系您，可以在哪里找到您？
And then two, any other way people can be helpful to you, other than maybe pre-ordering the book?
第二，除了预订这本书之外，人们还可以通过其他方式为您提供帮助吗？
Claire Hughes Johnson: Well, definitely pre-ordering the book and giving me feedback on that.
克莱尔·休斯·约翰逊：嗯，肯定是预订了这本书并给了我反馈。
I guess Twitter is probably the best place to find me.
我想 Twitter 可能是找到我的最佳地点。
I'm @chughesjohnson on Twitter.
我在推特上是@chughesjohnson。
But honestly, I do hope you'll consume the book in some form and interact with it because the goal is to make it useful.
但老实说，我确实希望您能以某种形式阅读这本书并与之互动，因为我们的目标是让它变得有用。
We talked about this, Lenny, your podcast for my book is just trying to be of use, and I hope it is a positive force for positive momentum.
我们讨论过这一点，莱尼，你为我的书制作的播客只是想发挥作用，我希望它能成为一股积极的力量，带来积极的势头。
And I really appreciate the opportunity.
我真的很感激这个机会。
Lenny: Absolutely.
莱尼：当然。
Thanks for making time for this.
感谢您抽出时间来做这件事。
Lenny: Thank you so much for listening.
莱尼：非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.
您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。