An inside look at Figma’s unique GTM motion | Claire Butler (first GTM hire)

Claire Butler: We had Coda.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我们有 Coda。

They were our first user, and they were based in Palo Alto.

他们是我们的第一个用户，他们的总部位于帕洛阿尔托。

Dylan and I drove down and demoed the product to them, and they were the first ones.

迪伦和我开车过来向他们演示产品，他们是第一批。

Their designer, Jeremy was like, "Yes, we'll take this on full time." And I remember we were both like, "What?

他们的设计师 Jeremy 说：“是的，我们会全职承担这个工作。”我记得我们都说，“什么？

Really?

真的吗？

You will?" That was the first person who said yes to us.

你会吗？”那是第一个对我们说“是”的人。

And so, we were so excited.

所以，我们非常兴奋。

This was a huge milestone.

这是一个巨大的里程碑。

We were just so stoked.

我们太兴奋了。

And then we got back to the office, and I think Dylan gets a text from Jeremy being like, "Oh yeah, I tried to share this with Philippe, my engineer, and he can't get the file to open, so I guess we can't use it." And we're like, "What is it?

然后我们回到办公室，我想迪伦收到了杰里米发来的短信，内容是：“哦，是的，我试图与我的工程师菲利普分享这个，但他无法打开该文件，所以我想我们不能使用它。”我们就像，“这是什么？

What happened?" Finally got someone.

发生什么事了？”终于有人了

And I remember Dylan was like, "Everybody drop everything.

我记得迪伦说：“每个人都放下一切。

We have to fix this."

我们必须解决这个问题。”

Claire Butler: And after some looking at the servers and things, they were like, "Nothing's wrong." And then they realized there's a problem with Philippe's MacBook.

克莱尔·巴特勒：在查看了服务器和其他东西之后，他们的反应是，“没有任何问题。”然后他们意识到 Philippe 的 MacBook 有问题。

And Evan down only had a car, so Dylan had to drive Evan down to Palo Alto to fix the MacBook of Philippe just to get them to use the product.

而埃文只有一辆车，所以迪伦不得不开车送埃文去帕洛阿尔托修理菲利普的MacBook，只是为了让他们使用该产品。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard one experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在其中采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，从他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的艰辛经验中学习。

Today my guest is Claire Butler.

今天我的嘉宾是克莱尔·巴特勒。

Claire started at Figma while they were still in stealth as their 10th employee and their first ever marketing hire.

克莱尔 (Claire) 开始在 Figma 工作，当时他们还处于隐秘状态，是他们的第 10 名员工，也是他们的第一个营销人员。

She led their original launch and go-to-market and also their branding and positioning and messaging work.

她领导了他们最初的发布和上市，以及他们的品牌、定位和信息传递工作。

And eight years in, she continues to lead their go-to-market and bottom-up growth motion along with community events, social advocacy, and Figma for education teams.

八年来，她继续领导他们的市场进入和自下而上的增长行动，以及社区活动、社会宣传和教育团队 Figma。

Lenny: In our conversation, we get the first ever in-depth glimpse into how Figma grew and continues to grow.

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们第一次深入了解 Figma 是如何成长并持续成长的。

Claire shares her two-part go-to-market strategy, which involves getting ICs at a company to love you and then enabling them to spread the product within the organization.

Claire 分享了她的两部分进入市场策略，其中包括让公司的 IC 喜欢你，然后让他们在组织内传播产品。

She shares tons of amazing stories and examples and lessons from how the Figma team executed the strategy and how you can apply it to your own product.

她分享了大量精彩的故事、示例以及 Figma 团队如何执行该策略以及如何将其应用到自己的产品中的经验教训。

This is an incredible episode with so many gold nuggets of wisdom.

这是令人难以置信的一集，蕴藏着许多智慧的金块。

You'll probably want to listen to it more than once.

您可能会想不止一次地听它。

With that, I bring you Claire Butler after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了克莱尔·巴特勒。

This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth.

本集由 Vanta 为您带来，帮助您简化安全合规性以加速您的成长。

Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Calm, Quora, and Modern Treasury trust Vanta to help build, scale, manage, and demonstrate their security and compliance programs and get ready for audits in weeks, not months.

Gusto、Calm、Quora 和 Modern Treasury 等数千家快速发展的公司信任 Vanta 来帮助构建、扩展、管理和演示其安全与合规计划，并在数周（而不是数月）内为审计做好准备。

By offering the most in-demand security and privacy frameworks such as SOC 2, ISO 27001, GDPR, HIPAA, and many more, Vanta helps companies obtain the reports they need to accelerate growth, build efficient compliance processes, mitigate risks to their businesses, and build trust with external stakeholders.

通过提供最受欢迎的安全和隐私框架（例如 SOC 2、ISO 27001、GDPR、HIPAA 等），Vanta 帮助公司获取加速增长、构建高效合规流程、降低业务风险以及与外部利益相关者建立信任所需的报告。

Over 5,000 best growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2 and these other frameworks.

超过 5,000 家成长最快的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 和其他框架所涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

For a limited time, Lenny's podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

在有限的时间内，Lenny 的播客听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Go to vanta.com/lenny.

访问vanta.com/lenny。

That's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discounts.

要了解更多信息并申请折扣，请访问 V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

This episode is brought to you by Mixpanel.

本集由 Mixpanel 为您带来。

Get deep insights into what your users are doing at every stage of the funnel at a fair price that scales as you grow.

以随着您的成长而扩展的合理价格，深入了解您的用户在渠道每个阶段的行为。

Mixpanel gives you quick answers about your users from awareness to acquisition through retention, and by capturing website activity, ad data and multitouch attribution right in Mixpanel, you can improve every aspect of the full user funnel.

Mixpanel 为您提供有关用户的快速答案，从认知到获取再到保留，并且通过在 Mixpanel 中捕获网站活动、广告数据和多点触控归因，您可以改进整个用户渠道的各个方面。

Powered by first party behavioral data instead of third-party cookies, Mixpanel is built to be more powerful and easier to use than Google Analytics.

Mixpanel 由第一方行为数据而非第三方 cookie 提供支持，比 Google Analytics 更强大且更易于使用。

Explore plans for teams of every size and see what Mixpanel can do for you at mixpanel.com/friends/lenny.

访问 mixpanel.com/friends/lenny，探索适合各种规模团队的计划并了解 Mixpanel 可以为您做什么。

And while you're at it, they're also hiring.

当你在做这件事的时候，他们也在招聘。

So check it out at mixpanel.com/friends/lenny.

请访问 mixpanel.com/friends/lenny 进行查看。

Lenny: Claire, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：克莱尔，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Claire Butler: Thanks, Lenny.

克莱尔·巴特勒：谢谢，莱尼。

I'm excited to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: You've been on my wishlist of guests for a long time, and so I'm really excited to be finally chatting.

莱尼：很长一段时间以来，你一直在我的愿望清单上，所以我很高兴终于能和你聊天了。

You were the 10th employee at Figma, which is now worth tens of billions of dollars depending on which valuation you look at, and probably thousands of employees.

你是 Figma 的第 10 名员工，该公司现在价值数百亿美元，具体取决于你看的估值，可能还有数千名员工。

I don't even know, but many, many.

我也不知道，但是很多很多。

And you joined before the product even launched.

您甚至在产品推出之前就加入了。

And so, I have a million questions I want to ask about how Figma grew and all the things that went into it.

因此，我想问一百万个问题，关于 Figma 是如何发展的以及其中涉及的所有内容。

I'm curious what it was like to be early days at Figma.

我很好奇在 Figma 的早期是什么样的。

Is there a memory that comes to mind that's zany, funny, fun, tangible of just what it was like to work at Figma in the early days?

脑海中是否浮现出一段滑稽、有趣、有趣、有形的记忆，就像早期在 Figma 工作的感觉一样？

Claire Butler: Yeah, totally.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，完全可以。

No, that's a good question.

不，这是个好问题。

We were right downtown on New Montgomery and Minna, and I think the thing that sticks out to me is actually two competing stories that talk about just how much at that time you'd oscillate between these really high-level strategic decisions and then total current work.

我们就在新蒙哥马利和明纳的市中心，我认为最让我印象深刻的是两个相互竞争的故事，它们讲述了当时你会在这些真正的高层战略决策和当前的总体工作之间摇摆不定。

Claire Butler: So my first day at Figma, I come into the office and we're going through some stuff.

Claire Butler：我在 Figma 的第一天，我走进办公室，我们正在处理一些事情。

There's like 10 of us in the office, we're chatting, and I look at some of the plans, some of the things they're working on, and I see that they were actually had some branding and positioning and things that the products, Figma, was going to be named Summit, that was the name.

我们办公室里大约有 10 个人，我们正在聊天，我查看了一些计划，他们正在做的一些事情，我发现他们实际上有一些品牌和定位以及产品，Figma，将被命名为 Summit，这就是名字。

So the company was going to be Figma, and then the product suite, the product design tool was going to be Summit with the idea that eventually we'll have other tools and that could be like mountaintop or I don't know what the rule, they had a whole thing around the different things that could be for the future product set.

所以公司将成为Figma，然后是产品套件，产品设计工具将成为Summit，其想法是最终我们将拥有其他工具，这可能就像山顶，或者我不知道规则是什么，他们围绕可能适用于未来产品集的不同事物有一整套东西。

Claire Butler: And I remember my first day, I had an immediate reaction of like, " We cannot make this thing Summit.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我记得第一天，我的立即反应是，“我们不能让这件事成为峰会。

That's not going to work.

那是行不通的。

We can't have two brands.

我们不能有两个品牌。

Summit's not ownable, we can't build equity and multiple things.

峰会不可拥有，我们无法建立股权和多种事物。

That's just never going to work.

那是永远行不通的。

We kind of have to just stick with one." And I think Figma is ownable and makes sense and we should just go with Figma.

我们必须坚持其中一个。”我认为 Figma 是可拥有的并且有意义，我们应该选择 Figma。

So we kind of should probably kill the Summit thing.

所以我们应该取消峰会的事情。

And Dylan said to me, he was like, "Oh, that's interesting.

迪伦对我说，“哦，这很有趣。

How about you make a presentation and present it to everyone tomorrow?" And so I did that.

明天你做一个演示并展示给大家怎么样？”所以我就这么做了。

I was like, "Oh, okay, I guess this is what I'm doing the rest of the day." So I went and made a little presentation about how we couldn't build all this equity in two places and all of the things, and then the next day we decided to kill that name.

我当时想，“哦，好吧，我想这就是我今天剩下的时间要做的事情。”所以我做了一个小演示，说明我们如何无法在两个地方和所有事情上建立所有这些股权，然后第二天我们决定取消这个名字。

Claire Butler: And so we went with Figma for the name of the product instead of Summit.

Claire Butler：所以我们使用 Figma 作为产品名称，而不是 Summit。

And that's how fast things moved, right?

这就是事情发展的速度，对吗？

And how much you just ran with it and how to ownership.

以及你用它跑了多少以及如何拥有它。

I compare that to the first meetup we had, which was probably just 10 people in the office, honestly.

我将其与我们的第一次聚会进行了比较，老实说，办公室里可能只有 10 个人。

But I remember I was in charge of that, so I had to get all the food and everything there, and I just Instacarted some things and ordered some pizza, but I'd forgotten ice.

但我记得我负责这件事，所以我必须把所有的食物和所有的东西都拿到那里，我只是用 Instacarted 一些东西并点了一些披萨，但我忘记了冰。

And so I had to go walk down to the nearest corner store, which was three blocks away or something, and get ice.

所以我不得不步行到最近的街角商店，距离三个街区之类的地方，买冰块。

And I got four bags.

我有四袋。

And I remember I was walking down the street down probably third street with three bags of ice and it was really heavy.

我记得我带着三袋冰沿着可能是第三条街的街道走，它真的很重。

And I remember thinking, "This is so hard.

我记得我当时想：“这太难了。

This is so heavy.

这太重了。

I can't carry all this ice." And it's just like that's...

我无法携带所有这些冰块。”就这样...

I did that too probably the next week.

我也可能在下周这样做了。

Claire Butler: And so, I think it was just this oscillation between like, "Oh, we're making these high level strategic decisions and someone else has to go by the ice." So that's what it was like at Figma in the early days.

克莱尔·巴特勒：所以，我认为这只是一种摇摆不定的感觉，“哦，我们正在做出这些高层战略决策，而其他人必须采取行动。”这就是 Figma 早期的情况。

Lenny: That's incredible.

莱尼：这太不可思议了。

That's almost a metaphor.

这几乎是一个比喻。

Someone's got to go carry the ice.

得有人去搬冰块。

Claire Butler: Almost got to the ice for the meetup.

克莱尔·巴特勒：差点就去冰场参加聚会了。

Yep.

是的。

Lenny: That's so interesting about Summit, I had no idea that was -

莱尼：峰会太有趣了，我不知道那是 -

Claire Butler: That wasn't a good name.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这不是一个好名字。

So if you liked that better, I'm sorry because I killed that.

所以，如果你更喜欢那个，我很抱歉，因为我杀了它。

Lenny: Who could like it better now that everyone loves Figma and that's just what it is?

Lenny：既然每个人都喜欢Figma，而且事实就是如此，谁会更喜欢它呢？

Do you think Figma would've been as successful with that name, looking back?

回顾过去，你认为 Figma 会因为这个名字而取得同样的成功吗？

Claire Butler: I think we probably would've changed it later.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我想我们稍后可能会改变它。

I think we just saved ourselves some time and without having to change it.

我认为我们只是为自己节省了一些时间，而不必改变它。

Lenny: And then how many days or weeks into your tenure was that happening?

莱尼：那么这种情况是在你上任后几天或几周发生的？

Claire Butler: The first day.

克莱尔·巴特勒：第一天。

No, that was literally my first day.

不，那确实是我的第一天。

Claire Butler: No, no, no. That was my first day and my second day.

克莱尔·巴特勒：不，不，不。那是我的第一天和第二天。

Not even kidding.

甚至不是开玩笑。

My first day, I made the recommendation, the second day, give the presentation and the decision was made.

第一天，我提出了建议，第二天，进行了演示并做出了决定。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

I was going to ask you what the most stressful memory of early days Figma was.

我想问你 Figma 早期最有压力的记忆是什么。

I'm guessing it's the same story.

我猜这是同一个故事。

Claire Butler: It's not actually.

克莱尔·巴特勒：实际上并非如此。

So I think the most stressful thing, I was thinking about this, was when we launched out of stealth.

所以我认为最有压力的事情，我在想这个，是当我们从隐身状态发射时。

So I come into Figma, I had lots of experience.

所以我进入Figma，我有很多经验。

I'd been in another startup before that, I launched stuff, but I was still kind of junior.

在此之前我曾在另一家初创公司工作过，我推出了一些东西，但我仍然是初级的。

I had done these things, but I didn't have a ton of cycles, and I never ran the whole thing from like, okay, messaging and positioning.

我已经做了这些事情，但我没有太多的周期，而且我从来没有从消息传递和定位等方面运行整个事情。

This was a forcing function for us to do our messaging and positioning.

这是我们进行消息传递和定位的强制功能。

And I remember there was more than one day where we locked ourselves in a conference room and I made Dylan and show at the time have this positioning up on the big screen and made them agree on it word for word.

我记得不止一天我们把自己锁在会议室里，我让迪伦和当时的节目在大屏幕上展示了这个定位，并让他们逐字逐句地达成一致。

We'd just never done that before.

我们以前从未这样做过。

But then I'd also never run PR press and all of a sudden, I had to run press and PR.

但后来我也从来没有管理过公关媒体，突然之间，我不得不管理媒体和公关。

Claire Butler: And I think the hardest part there and the most stressful part was I didn't have anyone to talk to.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我认为最困难和压力最大的部分是我没有人可以交谈。

It was just me.

只有我一个人。

And I didn't at the time have enough cycles to have the confidence that the decisions I was making were the right ones.

当时我没有足够的周期来确信我所做的决定是正确的。

And so it was hard not to second guess myself sometimes in that position.

因此，有时很难不去怀疑自己的处境。

And I think that's some of the hardest times of being at a startup, especially when you're the only marketer, the only go-to-market person is, you don't have anyone to talk to, to like got check stuff with.

我认为这是在初创公司最困难的时期，尤其是当你是唯一的营销人员、唯一的进入市场的人时，你没有人可以交谈，也没有人可以检查东西。

And so it does take this immense confidence in yourself, but that's stressful when you don't have the cycles.

因此，这确实需要对自己有极大的信心，但当你没有周期时，就会有压力。

And so that was very stressful for me for sure.

所以这对我来说无疑是非常有压力的。

Lenny: How did you overcome that?

莱尼：你是如何克服这个问题的？

Did you find people to work with and run ideas by?

你是否找到了可以一起工作并管理创意的人？

Did you just do it and figure it out?

你刚刚做了并弄清楚了吗？

Claire Butler: I mean, I had Dylan, but we just did it, right?

克莱尔·巴特勒：我的意思是，我有迪伦，但我们只是做到了，对吧？

Especially in those early days.

尤其是在早期。

I remember there were a couple of freak out moments where I would try to get our VCs to help us.

我记得有几次我感到惊慌失措的时候，我会尝试让风投来帮助我们。

I remember Greylock was helpful at least over there, but ultimately, they help a lot, but they don't know your business as intimately as you do.

我记得格雷洛克至少在那里提供了帮助，但最终，他们提供了很多帮助，但他们不像您那样熟悉您的业务。

So at the end of the day, that's something Dylan's really good at is trusting his intuition and gut.

所以归根结底，迪伦真正擅长的就是相信自己的直觉和直觉。

And so, he was helpful on the decision making, but then also you just got to go for it.

因此，他对决策很有帮助，但你也必须坚持下去。

And I think that that's something that I learned at that time that's helped me throughout the rest of my career is building that confidence or that trust in yourself because it wasn't something that I necessarily immediately had.

我认为我当时学到的东西在我余下的职业生涯中帮助我建立了对自己的信心或信任，因为这不是我必须立即拥有的东西。

Lenny: Next question I wanted to get into briefly is, you joined Figma really early, became one of the most successful, loved companies in history.

Lenny：我想简单讨论的下一个问题是，你们很早就加入 Figma，成为历史上最成功、最受喜爱的公司之一。

What did you see early on that convinced you that Figma was the company to join and ask?

您早期看到的是什么让您确信 Figma 就是您要加入并询问的公司？

Because a lot of people today are looking for places to join and trying to decide what to do.

因为今天很多人都在寻找加入的地方并试图决定要做什么。

Clearly, you made a good choice.

显然，你做了一个很好的选择。

What did you see?

你看到了什么？

Claire Butler: So I had been another startup before Figma, a little bit bigger.

Claire Butler：所以我是 Figma 之前的另一家初创公司，规模更大一些。

I think I joined at Series B and then got through on acquisition.

我想我加入了 B 轮融资，然后完成了收购。

And I had a sense that I wanted to do something early.

我有一种感觉，我想早点做点什么。

And I'd already made that decision that I wanted to go early stage.

我已经做出了想要进入早期阶段的决定。

So I'll take that decision making part out.

所以我会把决策部分排除掉。

But then from there, I was talking to a couple different companies, and when I went to Figma, there were three areas that stood out the most to me.

但从那时起，我与几家不同的公司进行了交谈，当我去 Figma 时，有三个领域对我来说最突出。

Claire Butler: The first was, it logically made sense.

克莱尔·巴特勒：首先，它在逻辑上是有道理的。

And I know maybe that sounds basic, but I was talking to just a drone company or a SaaS tech, like ad tech company, and I just didn't get it, honestly, it didn't intuitively make sense to me or I didn't understand the technology or something.

我知道也许这听起来很基本，但我只是在与一家无人机公司或 SaaS 技术公司（例如广告技术公司）交谈，但我只是不明白，老实说，它对我来说直观上没有意义，或者我不了解这项技术或其他什么。

But at Figma, the basic premise immediately logically clicked for me like, "Oh yeah, I use Google Docs, I use Asana, I use all these online tools.

但在 Figma，基本前提立即在逻辑上对我产生了影响，“哦，是的，我使用 Google Docs，我使用 Asana，我使用所有这些在线工具。

That's so weird.

那太奇怪了。

That design's not online.

该设计不在网上。

Why isn't it?"

为什么不是？”

Claire Butler: And as a marketer, I'd worked with designers and sent feedback and emails, and that's really inefficient.

克莱尔·巴特勒：作为一名营销人员，我与设计师合作并发送反馈和电子邮件，这确实效率很低。

And it made a ton of sense to me that yes, that should be online and collaborative.

对我来说，这很有意义，是的，这应该是在线和协作的。

So that was the first thing that I was like check the box.

所以这是我想要勾选复选框的第一件事。

And the next one was, I knew people who believed in it.

下一个是，我认识相信这一点的人。

So I got introduced to Dylan via Index.

所以我是通过 Index 认识迪伦的。

They were an investor at the last company I was at, and Danny Rimer specifically.

他们是我上一家公司的投资者，特别是丹尼·里默。

And my old boss, Greg Smearon, who was an EIR there.

还有我的前老板 Greg Smearon，他是那里的 EIR。

And I trusted them a lot and they invested in it.

我非常信任他们，他们也对此进行了投资。

I also met John Lilly.

我还认识了约翰·莉莉。

I didn't know who he was.

我不知道他是谁。

I had to Google him, but he seemed really smart.

我不得不用谷歌搜索他，但他看起来真的很聪明。

And when they Googled in, he was very impressive, and he believed in it.

当他们用谷歌搜索时，他给人留下了深刻的印象，他相信这一点。

So that was great.

所以那太好了。

Claire Butler: And then I think the third thing was, I remember when I was trying to decide, Dylan really didn't take no for answer.

克莱尔·巴特勒：然后我认为第三件事是，我记得当我试图做出决定时，迪伦真的没有接受否定的答案。

He's very persuasive.

他很有说服力。

And I remember he'd calling me and text me and then I'd have all these concerns or things and he would just pick them apart one by one of reasons why they weren't real concerns or things to get over them.

我记得他会给我打电话、给我发短信，然后我就有了所有这些担忧或事情，他只是将它们一一挑出来，解释为什么它们不是真正的担忧或需要克服的事情。

And so I think that that was the third thing is, that's just who he was and that's how he is with everything.

所以我认为第三件事是，这就是他是谁，这就是他对待一切的方式。

And so, if that's how with me, that's how he is with any obstacle that he has.

所以，如果我是这样的话，那么他遇到任何障碍也是这样。

And so, when I looked at that, I was just like, "All right, let's give this a go." And I didn't know.

所以，当我看到这个的时候，我就想，“好吧，让我们试试吧。”我不知道。

I didn't know.

我不知道。

I had no idea it would be as big as it is today.

我不知道它会像今天这么大。

So some of it was luck too, for sure.

所以当然，其中也有运气的成分。

But those are the three things of how I made my decision.

但这是我做出决定的三件事。

Lenny: So what I took away there is, one, you just believe in idea, obviously.

莱尼：所以我得出的结论是，一，显然，你只相信想法。

Make sure you actually think this could be really big, two is some social proof people you trust really believe in it.

确保你真的认为这可能真的很大，二是你信任的一些社会证明人确实相信它。

In this case, it was really smart investors, they knew.

他们知道，在这种情况下，投资者真的很聪明。

And then the third is, it sounds like you were also just impressed with Dylan.

第三，听起来你也对迪伦印象深刻。

Claire Butler: Yeah, totally.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，完全可以。

I believed in him.

我相信他。

Lenny: So you joined Figma before it even launched, it was still in stealth.

Lenny：所以你在 Figma 推出之前就加入了它，它仍然处于隐秘状态。

You joined as the first go-to-market hire.

您作为第一个进入市场的员工加入。

You helped launch Figma, you continue to lead go-to market at Figma.

您帮助推出了 Figma，您将继续引领 Figma 的市场走向。

And so this is a good segue to where I want to spend most of our conversation.

因此，这是一个很好的延续，我想在我们的大部分谈话中度过。

I essentially want to try to unpack what worked to build Figma into the business that it is today from beginning to even now.

我本质上是想尝试将 Figma 的构建从开始到现在的业务中发挥作用。

You're also there for eight years.

你也在那里呆了八年了。

So you saw a lot of what worked and didn't work.

所以你看到了很多有效和无效的方法。

And so let's start with the beginnings of Figma and the go-to-market motion that you developed and how you actually implemented it.

那么，让我们从Figma 的起源、您开发的上市动议以及您如何实际实施它开始。

So maybe to start, if you could just talk about just what is a bottom up go-to-market motion?

那么，也许首先，您能否谈谈什么是自下而上的上市动议？

And then you also shared somewhere that Figma has a very unique bottom-up go-to-market motion.

然后您还在某处分享了Figma 有一个非常独特的自下而上的上市行动。

So maybe just those two areas, just broadly, what is bottom-up go- to-market motion, and then two, what is unique about Figma's approach?

因此，也许只是这两个领域，从广义上讲，什么是自下而上的上市运动，然后是两个领域，Figma 方法的独特之处是什么？

Claire Butler: I've reflected back to get to some of these answers.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我经过反思，找到了其中一些答案。

I think in the moment, so much of what we were doing was influenced by gut, by trying to connect with people, listening to them.

我认为目前我们所做的很多事情都受到直觉的影响，试图与人们建立联系，倾听他们的意见。

But when I look back is when I'm like, "Oh, this is a repeatable motion." So when I look back at it, I would say that if I were to define and think about how I define our go-to-market motion, and we've said it, we've called it a lot of things over time.

但当我回头看时，我会想，“哦，这是一个可重复的动作。”因此，当我回顾它时，我会说，如果我要定义并思考如何定义我们的上市动议，而且我们已经说过了，随着时间的推移，我们已经给它起了很多名字。

We called it product-led, we called it community-led.

我们称之为产品主导，我们称之为社区主导。

The way I think about it now is this bottoms-up motion, that really is focused on ICs.

我现在的想法是这种自下而上的运动，真正关注的是 IC。

So it's all focused on like, "Okay, so you have this core audience." For us it was designers and they're largely individual contributors, so they're people who are practitioners who are using your tool.

所以一切都集中在“好吧，所以你有这个核心受众”。对我们来说，是设计师，他们主要是个人贡献者，所以他们是使用你的工具的实践者。

For us, it's like eight hours a day.

对我们来说，就像每天八个小时。

Claire Butler: If you're a designer, you're in it all the time.

克莱尔·巴特勒：如果你是一名设计师，你就会一直参与其中。

And they love you, and you build this relationship with them within the product, but it's beyond the product, right?

他们爱你，你在产品中与他们建立了这种关系，但这超出了产品的范围，对吗？

It's also believing what the product can be in the company and the brand.

它还相信产品在公司和品牌中的作用。

And they love you so much that they're willing to put their social capital and themselves in the line and spread the product throughout whatever their communities are.

他们非常爱你，以至于他们愿意将他们的社会资本和他们自己投入其中，并将产品传播到他们所在的社区。

And the one that's connected the most to revenue is companies.

与收入关系最密切的是公司。

Claire Butler: And so that's where the revenue model really clicks in is you have all these individual contributors who love you, but then they also work at these big companies and these big orgs, and they become these internal champions who spearhead adoption within their organizations and eventually turn into large amounts of revenue.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这就是收入模式真正起作用的地方，你拥有所有这些爱你的个人贡献者，但他们也在这些大公司和这些大组织中工作，他们成为这些内部冠军，在他们的组织内带头采用并最终转化为大量收入。

And I think of that as our bottoms-up motion.

我认为这是我们自下而上的动议。

And that's different from tops-down.

这与自上而下不同。

And a lot of SaaS is tops-down where you go straight to a VP or an executive buyer, they then agree to buying a tool and then that goes down to their organization.

很多 SaaS 都是自上而下的，你直接去找副总裁或执行采购员，然后他们同意购买工具，然后再下达到他们的组织。

I think with technical tools especially, this becomes really important.

我认为尤其是对于技术工具来说，这变得非常重要。

The practitioners have to love it.

练习者必须热爱它。

And also, sometimes I wondered as an executive care, you know what I mean, what tools people are using?

而且，有时我想知道，作为一名高管，你知道我的意思，人们正在使用什么工具？

Claire Butler: And so for Figma, what that looks like and why this is so efficient of a go-to-market motion for us is, we actually didn't have a sales team for the first three years.

Claire Butler：对于 Figma 来说，这是什么样子的，以及为什么这对我们来说是一个如此有效的上市行动，我们实际上在前三年没有销售团队。

So all of our revenue, it was paid, but it was all self-serve.

所以我们所有的收入都是付费的，但都是自助的。

And so we'd work with these.

所以我们会与这些一起工作。

We weren't worried about things.

我们并不担心事情。

I mean, you cared about security, but all of the org features that people need and want when you're working with procurement, we were just focused on technical features for users mostly.

我的意思是，您关心安全性，但是当您进行采购时，人们需要和想要的所有组织功能，我们主要只关注用户的技术功能。

And then the individual contributor or maybe the manager would just put them on their credit card.

然后个人贡献者或者经理可能会把它们记在信用卡上。

That was the way that things grew.

事情就是这样发展的。

And so there was no sales team for a long time.

因此很长一段时间没有销售团队。

We did have one eventually, and I'll talk about what that looked like.

我们最终确实有了一个，我会谈谈它是什么样子的。

Claire Butler: But then the second thing was, once we did have a sales team, and even up until now, so much of our revenue and our sales and our MQLs, our marketing qualified leads come from our free tier.

克莱尔·巴特勒：但第二件事是，一旦我们有了销售团队，甚至到现在为止，我们的大部分收入、销售额、MQL、营销合格的潜在客户都来自我们的免费套餐。

So it's people, they're using it, maybe they use it for free.

所以是人，他们正在使用它，也许他们免费使用它。

We have a very robust free tier.

我们有一个非常强大的免费套餐。

Maybe they use it for pro, which is on your credit card.

也许他们将其用于专业版，这是在您的信用卡上。

And then once it's widespread and they've gained the confidence, then they're ready to bring in sales work with procurement.

一旦它广泛传播并且他们获得了信心，他们就准备好将销售工作与采购结合起来。

And they actually come to us and they're like, "Hey, I work at this company.

他们实际上来找我们，就像，“嘿，我在这家公司工作。

I really want to get my whole company to use it, but security's not letting me.

我真的想让我的整个公司都使用它，但安全部门不允许我这样做。

Can you help me unblock it with them?"

你能帮我和他们一起解封吗？”

Claire Butler: We didn't spend that much money, any money really programmatically on paid or programmatic marketing because all of our leads for sales would come in through a form on our website, which was current users either free or pro wanting to upgrade.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我们并没有花那么多钱，任何真正以程序化方式进行付费或程序化营销的钱，因为我们所有的销售线索都将通过我们网站上的表格进入，当前用户要么是免费的，要么是想要升级的专业用户。

And at that point, it's a very different sales conversation to unblock someone or to just help them implement Figma when they've already have an internal champion who's bought in, and they're really the one leading and driving the sale within their organization.

到那时，当他们已经有一位内部支持者并且他们确实是组织内领导和推动销售的人时，解锁某人或只是帮助他们实施 Figma 是一种非常不同的销售对话。

So I think that that's made us really efficient as like this is a really efficient model and has really powered so much of our growth over time.

所以我认为这让我们变得非常高效，因为这是一个非常高效的模型，并且随着时间的推移确实为我们的增长提供了很大的动力。

Lenny: Somebody listening to this that has a saying, B2B SaaS companies like, "Oh, okay, I just need to get people to love my product and it's going to be great." And so I want to unpack that just like what you did because it wasn't obviously an accident that people loved Figma.

Lenny：有人听过这样的话，B2B SaaS 公司喜欢，“哦，好吧，我只需要让人们喜欢我的产品，它就会很棒。”所以我想像你所做的那样解开它，因为人们喜欢 Figma 显然不是偶然的。

But before we get there, you talked about that there's a unique approach to the way you did bottom up.

但在我们到达那里之前，您谈到了您自下而上的工作方式有一种独特的方法。

What do you see as what the typical bottom-up go-to-market motion is that other companies try to play that you think Figma did differently?

您认为其他公司尝试采取的典型的自下而上的入市行动与您认为 Figma 的做法有何不同？

Is it this obsession with ICs on teams or is there some other element of it?

是团队对 IC 的痴迷还是还有其他因素？

Claire Butler: I think there are other people who do bottoms-up and who do it well.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我认为还有其他人在做自下而上的工作，而且做得很好。

I think for us it's unique because the individual contributor spends so much time in the tool, and it's so important to them.

我认为这对我们来说是独一无二的，因为个人贡献者在该工具上花费了大量时间，这对他们来说非常重要。

I think about things that we focus on where it might take one click off of someone's workflow, and that seems like a really small update.

我认为我们关注的事情可能会在某人的工作流程中单击一下，而这似乎是一个非常小的更新。

You have to click one time instead of twice to do something.

您必须单击一次而不是两次才能执行某项操作。

Claire Butler: When you're a designer and you're in a tool eight hours a day, saving that one click is huge.

Claire Butler：当您是一名设计师并且每天使用工具八小时时，节省一次点击的时间是巨大的。

And so I think the obsession with quality and with craft within the editor for us, for Figma, is maybe the difference.

因此，我认为对我们、Figma 来说，编辑器对质量和工艺的痴迷可能就是不同之处。

And I think about other go-to-market tools that maybe focus so much on the collaboration side or the product-led of the expansion.

我想到了其他进入市场的工具，这些工具可能非常关注协作方面或以产品为主导的扩展。

And that is a huge part segue, don't get me wrong, but the tool itself, the editor, that's where it all starts and that's what these people love.

这是一个很大的部分，不要误会我的意思，但是工具本身，编辑器，这就是一切的开始，这就是这些人所喜欢的。

And then the collaboration is like, yes, it's the thing that's like our differentiator, but it's actually like you stay for the collaboration.

然后合作就像，是的，这就像我们的差异化因素，但实际上就像你留下来进行合作。

You don't want to talk about it or learn about it.

你不想谈论它或了解它。

Nobody wants talk about collaboration.

没有人愿意谈论合作。

You just want it to work, right?

你只是想让它发挥作用，对吗？

You care about the tool and that the tool's working well.

您关心该工具并且该工具运行良好。

And so I think that maybe that's the difference is the obsession with the tool itself.

所以我认为也许这就是区别在于对工具本身的痴迷。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Yeah, something I learned recently is that multiplayer wasn't even a part of Figma at launch, a year later.

是的，我最近了解到，一年后 Figma 发布时，多人游戏甚至还不是其中的一部分。

Claire Butler: I know.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我知道。

We can talk about that, and we want to know making a decision of when to go to self because we almost didn't because it didn't have multiplayer.

我们可以讨论这个，我们想知道何时决定何时进行自我测试，因为我们几乎没有这样做，因为它没有多人游戏。

Lenny: Oh yeah, let's talk about that.

莱尼：哦，是的，我们来谈谈这个吧。

Claire Butler: Yeah, that was a poor differentiator and we can't not have it, but then we did anyway.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，这是一个很差的差异化因素，我们不能没有它，但无论如何我们还是这么做了。

Lenny: Yeah, let's take a tangent there actually.

莱尼：是的，我们实际上要切线一下。

Just that decision to go from stealth.

只是决定从隐身行动。

So Figma was in stealth three years or four years before idea.

所以 Figma 在提出这个想法之前三四年就已经秘密进行了。

Claire Butler: Gosh, three, I guess.

克莱尔·巴特勒：天哪，我猜是三个。

I think is 2012 that they started, and then we launched in at the end of 2015.

我认为他们是在 2012 年开始的，然后我们在 2015 年底推出了。

So between around there, yeah, around three or four.

所以在那之间，是的，大约三到四个。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

And then you joined right before they launched.

然后你在他们推出之前加入了。

We're going to come back to what we were talking about, but just what did you see about that decision of now's the time to launch?

我们将回到我们正在讨论的内容，但您对现在发布的决定有何看法？

Claire Butler: Yeah, I think it was a couple things.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，我认为有几件事。

So I think the first thing is that the team had been building quietly by themselves in isolation for three years.

所以我觉得首先是这个团队自己在隔离状态下默默建设了三年。

And that's hard.

这很难。

I think that that was a very real part of the decision to get out of stealth was that people had been building for such a long time.

我认为，摆脱隐身状态的决定的一个非常现实的部分是人们已经建造了很长时间。

We needed momentum.

我们需要动力。

We needed to have a milestone that we were working towards.

我们需要有一个我们正在努力实现的里程碑。

We could have just kept building it quiet for a long time more, but it was very demotivating.

我们本来可以让它安静地建造更长时间，但这非常令人沮丧。

So that was a very big part of this.

所以这是其中非常重要的一部分。

So there was a desire holistically to get out of stealth.

因此，人们整体上渴望摆脱隐身状态。

But we didn't want to do it until we knew it'd at least be successful.

但我们不想这样做，直到我们知道它至少会成功。

But that was a key thing for me.

但这对我来说是一件关键的事情。

I was working on that messaging, positioning that I was telling you, like we would have this.

我正在研究我告诉你的信息和定位，就像我们会有这个一样。

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]I still have the doc actually where I was like, projected on the screen and Dylan and Sean and I picked apart every word of it and sharing with a link and multiplayer is the biggest thing.

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]我仍然保留着我以前喜欢的文档，投影在屏幕上，迪伦和肖恩和我把它的每一个字拆开，通过链接和多人共享是最重要的。

That's the core differentiator.

这是核心差异化因素。

It's really funny.

真的很有趣。

I remember Ivan from Notion's early days, he stopped by and was chatting, and he's like, "Wait, you can't launch with that multiplayer." And I was like, "I know." So I was like, everybody was like, that was the core thing.

我记得 Notion 早期的 Ivan，他过来聊天，他说，“等等，你不能启动多人游戏。”我当时想，“我知道。”所以我想，每个人都想，这就是核心。

Claire Butler: But the idea was that we wanted to get out of stealth.

克莱尔·巴特勒：但我们的想法是我们想要摆脱隐身状态。

We talked to Evan, our CTO, and knew it would take about another year for him to build it.

我们与我们的首席技术官埃文（Evan）进行了交谈，并知道他还需要大约一年的时间来构建它。

And for me it was like, "Well, is there enough here to get people excited to start and to get users, get more feedback?" Because Evan was kind of building multiplayer.

对我来说，这就像，“好吧，这里是否有足够的东西让人们兴奋地开始并吸引用户，获得更多反馈？”因为埃文正在开发多人游戏。

I don't know enough about the engineering if he was doing it on his own or not, but he was the key person doing it.

我不太了解工程是否是他自己做的，但他是做这件事的关键人物。

But there are a lot of other things too that were being built or could be built through that year.

但那一年还有很多其他正在建造或可能建造的东西。

And we wanted to get more feedback from people and to start really get started.

我们希望从人们那里获得更多反馈，并开始真正开始。

Claire Butler: And so to me, the things that I wanted to see before just deciding like, "Okay, so we don't have our key feature.

克莱尔·巴特勒：对我来说，在决定之前我想看到的东西是，“好吧，所以我们没有我们的关键功能。

Can we still launch, or is there enough fear for people to get excited?" At least my first three months, especially before we get going for the launch with the product, and probably even after that, I would just go around with Dylan and pilot or demo Figma to companies.

我们还能发射吗？还是有足够的恐惧让人们兴奋起来？”至少在我的前三个月，特别是在我们开始发布产品之前，甚至可能在那之后，我只会和 Dylan 一起向公司进行试点或演示 Figma。

That was a lot of what we did.

这就是我们所做的很多事情。

So we'd go to these companies and we'd show them Figma and we'd get their feedback, and I would be driving around in Palo Alto, around the city doing that with Dylan.

所以我们会去这些公司，向他们展示Figma，然后得到他们的反馈，然后我会开车在帕洛阿尔托，在城市里和迪伦一起做这件事。

And sometimes people didn't care.

有时人们并不关心。

They were just like, "What is this?

他们就像，“这是什么？

I don't want to design online," things like that.

我不想在线设计”之类的事情。

Claire Butler: But what we wanted to see, what I wanted to see was that designers were excited when they saw the tool.

克莱尔·巴特勒：但我们想看到的是，我想看到的是设计师在看到这个工具时感到兴奋。

And once we got enough features, and I saw this pretty quickly actually when I joined Figma, is that the people that we showed it to were really interested in it and cared about it.

一旦我们获得了足够的功能，当我加入 Figma 时，我很快就看到了这一点，我们向其展示的人们真的对它感兴趣并关心它。

And I remember after Vector Networks came out, after some of our other core features, there were enough things where people, I remember, they would take the laptop out of Dylan's hands when he would start showing it because they wanted to play with it.

我记得在 Vector Networks 推出后，在我们的其他一些核心功能之后，我记得，当迪伦开始展示笔记本电脑时，人们会从他手中夺走笔记本电脑，因为他们想玩它。

And to me, when I started seeing designers do that, even if I wasn't sure if they'd use it as a team, even if I wasn't sure if they'd buy it, we weren't selling it yet.

对我来说，当我开始看到设计师这样做时，即使我不确定他们是否会作为一个团队使用它，即使我不确定他们是否会购买它，我们还没有出售它。

They wanted to try it and they were excited about it.

他们想尝试一下，并且对此感到兴奋。

Claire Butler: And that kind of emotion, no reaction of wanting to play with it in these demos was really what gave me confidence that we were ready to launch.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这种情感，没有任何想要在这些演示中使用它的反应，真正让我相信我们已经准备好发布。

And we had a couple teams, small numbers, and happened to talk about metrics and how hard it is to deal with metrics of this size, but very small numbers.

我们有几个团队，人数很少，并且碰巧谈论了指标以及处理这种规模但数量很少的指标有多么困难。

But we had teams who were using it full-time.

但我们有团队全职使用它。

So we knew that some people were using it full-time and people who weren't were really excited to try and were very impressed with the technical feat of it all and interested.

所以我们知道有些人正在全职使用它，而那些没有全职使用它的人则非常兴奋地尝试，并对它的技术壮举印象深刻并且很感兴趣。

And to me that was enough confidence that like, "Okay, it's worth it.

对我来说，这是足够的信心，就像，“好吧，这是值得的。

Let's get out of stealth."

让我们摆脱隐身吧。”

Lenny: That story of the- PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:23:04]

Lenny：那个故事 - 第 1 部分（共 4 部分）结束 [00:23:04]

Lenny: That story of the potential customer pulling the laptop from Dylan is such a good metaphor for product market fit, which people describe as you feel pull.

莱尼：潜在客户从迪伦那里拉走笔记本电脑的故事是对产品市场契合度的一个很好的比喻，人们将其描述为你感觉拉动。

Someone's literally pulling it from your hands.

有人真的把它从你手中夺走了。

You talked about metrics that you maybe could share.

您谈到了您也许可以分享的指标。

What could you share there?

你能在那里分享什么？

Claire Butler: At these early days, especially with bottoms-up and with all these things...

克莱尔·巴特勒：在早期，尤其是自下而上和所有这些事情......

And people ask me all the time, "How do you measure things in an early stage situation?" And I maybe have a controversial point of view here.

人们总是问我：“在早期阶段，你如何衡量事物？”我在这里可能有一个有争议的观点。

I don't think you can, from a metrics side.

从指标方面来看，我认为你不能。

Your numbers are so small.

你的数字这么小。

One of the quotes I always like to say, and I say this now too, when we're doing stuff, because we're launching new products and it comes up a lot, is you can't optimize your way to product market fit.

我总是喜欢说的一句话，我现在也这么说，当我们在做事情时，因为我们正在推出新产品，而且它出现了很多，那就是你无法优化产品市场契合的方式。

I don't care at the early stages if something's optimized by 5% from an email.

在早期阶段，我并不关心某些内容是否通过电子邮件优化了 5%。

Claire Butler: That doesn't fundamentally tell me if something's working or not, so I think metrics are really hard and signal is actually way more important.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这并不能从根本上告诉我某些东西是否有效，所以我认为指标真的很难，而信号实际上更重要。

Can you get a couple people who love it, not a slight improvement of a conversion of a landing page.

你能得到几个喜欢它的人，而不是登陆页面转换的轻微改进吗？

And so I think that metrics are really hard in that way.

所以我认为衡量指标在这方面确实很难。

They can help you, but when the numbers are so small, you have to, again, trust yourself a lot more and have more intuition, but then also find more signal of the things that are working, whether it's anecdotal, talking to people, examples, and that becomes much more useful than hard metrics are sometimes.

它们可以帮助你，但当数字如此之小时，你必须再次更加相信自己，拥有更多的直觉，但也要找到更多正在发挥作用的信号，无论是轶事、与人交谈、例子，有时这比硬性指标更有用。

Lenny: I'm working on a post around product market fit and a step-by-step somewhat of our guide to help people down this path.

莱尼：我正在写一篇关于产品市场契合度的文章，以及一份逐步的指南，以帮助人们走上这条道路。

The way you described it is the way I'm thinking about it, is step one, get one company to use your product.

您描述的方式就是我的想法，第一步是让一家公司使用您的产品。

Claire Butler: What do they want?

克莱尔·巴特勒：他们想要什么？

That was step one, and then that's not easy.

这是第一步，然后就不容易了。

That's not easy.

这并不容易。

Lenny: Right.

莱尼：对。

And then it's like, get them to continue using your product.

然后就像是让他们继续使用你的产品。

Lenny: And then it's get two companies to use your product.

莱尼：然后就有两家公司使用你的产品。

Lenny: And then get someone to pay for your product.

莱尼：然后让人为你的产品付款。

Yeah, so there's all these major milestones.

是的，所以有所有这些重要的里程碑。

Along those same lines, I saw an interview with Dylan talking about product market fit, and he had this interesting quote about how he realized first that they had product market fit a year later, which is when Microsoft, I think, was like, "Take our money.

沿着同样的思路，我看到迪伦在一次采访中谈到了产品市场契合度，他引用了一段有趣的话，讲述了他如何在一年后首先意识到他们的产品市场契合度，我认为，那时微软就像是，“拿走我们的钱。

We want to pay for Figma." And he's like, "Okay, maybe this is going to work." Does that sound about right?

我们想为 Figma 付费。”他说：“好吧，也许这会起作用。”听起来对吗？

Claire Butler: Well, it's interesting, and that goes up to the bottoms-up model that we could talk about.

克莱尔·巴特勒：嗯，这很有趣，这涉及到我们可以讨论的自下而上的模型。

I think the difference, if you think about a company like Microsoft and what this looks like, this is just a really good example of this bottoms-up motion in market.

我认为区别在于，如果你考虑像微软这样的公司及其外观，这只是市场自下而上运动的一个很好的例子。

Here's a funny story that I want to add.

这是我想添加的一个有趣的故事。

Our first meeting with Microsoft actually came, and this is the scrappiness of working in an early stage startup, because I slid into the DMs of my friend's ex-boyfriend.

我们与微软的第一次会面确实到来了，这就是在早期初创公司工作的斗志，因为我陷入了我朋友前男友的私信中。

That's how we got our first meeting with Microsoft.

这就是我们与微软的第一次会面。

Claire Butler: I know, I know.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我知道，我知道。

I saw that they had signed up for Figma, and I was like, "Wait a minute.

我看到他们已经注册了Figma，我就想，“等一下。

I think I know this person." And that's how we chatted with them and first got feedback from them, so that's just a funny anecdote.

我想我认识这个人。”这就是我们与他们聊天并首先得到他们反馈的方式，所以这只是一个有趣的轶事。

Lenny: This could be a new strategy if everyone's going to try to-

莱尼：这可能是一个新策略，如果每个人都尝试-

Claire Butler: You literally do whatever.

克莱尔·巴特勒：你确实可以做任何事。

Uber driver, shared Lyfts, we can talk more about that.

Uber 司机、共享 Lyfts，我们可以更多地讨论这些。

But yeah, you got to do whatever you can to get early people to try your product out and get really scrappy.

但是，是的，你必须尽一切努力让早期的人们尝试你的产品，并变得非常斗志旺盛。

But for Microsoft, over time, we would have, I think it was...

但对于微软来说，随着时间的推移，我认为...

What was the team that got acquired that we went into Microsoft?

我们进入微软后被收购的团队是什么？

I'll have to remember the name, but it was a small team within Microsoft and they were...

我必须记住这个名字，但这是微软内部的一个小团队，他们......

Xamarin, it was Xamarin.

Xamarin，这是 Xamarin。

They were to ones who were using Figma first, and we saw that, so they were that patient zero at Microsoft.

他们是那些首先使用 Figma 的人，我们看到了这一点，所以他们是微软的零号病人。

And then we had, slowly over time, more pockets within Microsoft using the tool.

然后，随着时间的推移，我们慢慢地在微软内部有了更多的人使用这个工具。

Claire Butler: But again, we've never gone through Microsoft procurement, Microsoft security.

克莱尔·巴特勒：但同样，我们从未经历过微软采购、微软安全。

It just started popping up throughout the organization.

它刚刚开始在整个组织中出现。

And we have these really cool Node graphs that show this too, where you'd have these little pockets of people and then it would jump to another, like they'd have one more collaborator and then jump from another pocket.

我们有这些非常酷的节点图也显示了这一点，你会有这些小口袋的人，然后它会跳到另一个口袋，就像他们有一个更多的合作者，然后从另一个口袋跳。

There were these really cool maps of how that spread within the organization.

这些非常酷的地图展示了它如何在组织内传播。

And eventually, we got to the point where that was a very comprehensive Node graph that had this massive thing of all of these people from Microsoft using the product.

最终，我们得到了一个非常全面的节点图，其中包含来自 Microsoft 的所有使用该产品的人员的大量信息。

Claire Butler: But still, it was only on credit cards.

克莱尔·巴特勒：但是，这仍然仅限于信用卡。

I don't think we even had an enterprise product at this point, and so there was no salesperson for them to talk to.

我认为我们此时甚至还没有企业产品，因此没有销售人员可供他们交谈。

And Microsoft was like, "Wait a minute.

微软说：“等一下。

We need to organize this.

我们需要组织这个。

We need security.

我们需要安全。

We need account management.

我们需要账户管理。

We need procurement involved." And I think that that's what it was.

我们需要参与采购。”我认为事情就是这样。

They wanted to pay for it and they wanted us to have this enterprise product, because they had these requirements and they wanted to have a better control over it, because it was just popping up within the organization without their control.

他们想要为此付费，他们希望我们拥有这个企业产品，因为他们有这些要求，并且他们希望对其有更好的控制，因为它只是在组织内突然出现而不受他们的控制。

And so that's probably a good example of what that looked like as this bottoms in motion just spread to a really large organization.

因此，这可能是一个很好的例子，说明这种底部运动刚刚蔓延到一个非常大的组织。

Lenny: This Node graph thing, is that a tool you built that's showing, helping you visualize within a company how it's all clustering?

Lenny：这个节点图是你构建的一个工具，可以帮助你可视化公司内部的集群情况？

Or what is that?

或者那是什么？

Claire Butler: Well, our data science team built it.

克莱尔·巴特勒：嗯，是我们的数据科学团队构建的。

I don't know if it's like...

我不知道是不是像...

Yes, I'm sure it's an internal tool.

是的，我确信这是一个内部工具。

I just remember there was a website in Node or something that we would use, and you could type it in an organization's name.

我只记得 Node 中有一个网站或者我们会使用的东西，你可以在组织名称中输入它。

You still could do this.

你仍然可以做到这一点。

It's within our data analytics system.

它位于我们的数据分析系统内。

You type in the name of an organization and it just pulls up everybody.

你输入一个组织的名称，它就会拉出每个人。

And it shows, because Figma spreads through new users, but also gen one, gen two, these people invite people.

它表明，由于 Figma 通过新用户传播，而且还通过第一代、第二代用户传播，这些人邀请了人们。

And you can see these Node graphs of how somebody started Figma, maybe at the center, and then they invited someone else, and then it shows how that spread.

你可以看到这些节点图，显示有人如何启动Figma，也许是在中心，然后他们邀请了其他人，然后它显示了它是如何传播的。

Claire Butler: And so you get these clusters, and you can see the clusters are teams, but then you can see someone invited someone in a different org to a file and then that started a new center of a cluster.

克莱尔·巴特勒：所以你得到了这些集群，你可以看到这些集群是团队，但是你可以看到有人邀请不同组织中的某人加入一个文件，然后启动了一个新的集群中心。

They're really interesting.

他们真的很有趣。

And you can pull up, you can type in any org, any org at Figma and see what that Node graph looks like.

你可以拉起，你可以在 Figma 上输入任何组织，任何组织，看看节点图是什么样的。

But they're super interesting to see how those spread.

但他们非常有趣地看到这些是如何传播的。

Lenny: That is super cool.

莱尼：那太酷了。

And I imagine that also informs how you go to market by figuring out who spreads to who and who's often .

我想这也可以告诉你如何通过弄清楚谁传播给谁以及谁经常传播来进入市场。

Claire Butler: Totally, and that's when these internal champions, that's what the key is.

克莱尔·巴特勒：完全正确，这就是这些内部冠军的关键所在。

And that's maybe the takeaway of how important these internal champions are, because you just need someone to land there and then them maybe passing it up.

这也许就是这些内部冠军的重要性，因为你只需要有人登陆那里，然后他们可能会放弃它。

You could hover over and see this person's at the center of this Node graph and all of these people that spread from this one person at the company.

您可以将鼠标悬停在该节点图的中心，并看到此人位于该节点图的中心，以及公司中从该人传播的所有这些人。

And that, I think, was the unlock to be like, "Oh yeah, these internal champions, they're really the key to all of this."

我认为，这就是“哦，是的，这些内部冠军，他们确实是这一切的关键”。

Lenny: I remember it spreading at Airbnb early on.

Lenny：我记得它很早就在 Airbnb 传播开来。

I think Airbnb was one of the early customers and it was just one designer, a few designers starting to spread to the product managers.

我认为 Airbnb 是早期的客户之一，它只是一位设计师，几位设计师开始扩展到产品经理。

I was just a member on the team being like, "Goddamn it, we just switched to Sketch.

我只是团队中的一员，就像，“天哪，我们刚刚切换到 Sketch。

Are we going to switch again to a new product?"

我们要再次转向新产品吗？”

Claire Butler: That was the hardest thing to feel like I don't want to switch twice.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这是最难的事情，让我感觉我不想换两次。

That was definitely something we had to get over.

这绝对是我们必须克服的事情。

Lenny: But it happened for good reasons.

莱尼：但这件事的发生是有充分理由的。

Okay, one last thing that you mentioned that I wanted to follow up on.

好的，你提到的我想跟进的最后一件事。

You said something about shared Lyfts, and maybe that's a funny story of some sort.

你谈到了共享 Lyfts 的事情，也许这是一个有趣的故事。

Claire Butler: Oh, I don't know specifically.

克莱尔·巴特勒：哦，我具体不知道。

Actually, Dylan specifically is such a hustler, especially in those early days.

事实上，迪伦就是这样一个骗子，尤其是在早期。

And he would just, really anyone that he would meet, he would talk about Figma with them.

他会与任何他遇到的人谈论Figma。

I don't remember who it was, but there was definitely a situation where he met someone in a Lyft and then they became one of our users.

我不记得是谁了，但肯定有一种情况，他在 Lyft 上遇到了某人，然后他们就成为了我们的用户之一。

He used every angle he could to try to get introduced to new designers, especially in his pre-launch days where we didn't have as many connections to just get people to try it out and get more feedback.

他利用一切可能的角度尝试向新设计师介绍，特别是在他发布前的日子里，我们没有那么多的联系来让人们尝试并获得更多反馈。

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

Let's get back on track.

让我们回到正轨吧。

We were talking about the go-to-market motion that you executed and modeled at Figma.

我们正在讨论您在 Figma 执行和建模的上市动议。

There's two steps, right?

有两步，对吧？

Step one is get ICs to love you, and then step two is help it spread from that person, right?

第一步是让 IC 爱你，然后第二步是帮助它从那个人那里传播，对吗？

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

So, let's start with step one.

那么，让我们从第一步开始。

Lenny: Like I said, obviously, it'd be awesome if somebody loved your product at a company.

莱尼：就像我说的，显然，如果公司里有人喜欢你的产品，那就太棒了。

What did you actually do to make that happen in the early days?

为了实现这一目标，您早期实际上做了什么？

Claire Butler: Yeah.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的。

It's really interesting when you think about the early days too, because you're like, "All right.

当你回想早期的时候，这真的很有趣，因为你会想，“好吧。

We don't exist." How do you get them to love you when literally, they've never heard of you before?

我们不存在。”当他们以前从未听说过你时，你如何让他们爱你？

Also, like you were saying, in your situation, "Oh, I used Sketch.

另外，就像你说的，在你的情况下，“哦，我用的是 Sketch。

I was maybe in Photoshop before that, something else.

在那之前我可能用过 Photoshop，或者别的东西。

I just made the switch over to this new tool.

我刚刚切换到这个新工具。

We finally got it working.

我们终于让它发挥作用了。

I really don't want to move tools again." You have that inherent thing against it there.

我真的不想再动工具了。”你有固有的反对它的东西。

Especially I thought about this, and I think there are four main areas that we focused on to make this start, to get it going, and then we kind of still do this stuff today.

我特别想到了这一点，我认为我们重点关注四个主要领域来启动这个项目，让它继续下去，然后我们今天仍然在做这些事情。

Claire Butler: The first thing is all about credibility.

克莱尔·巴特勒：首先是可信度。

I think in the early days especially, credibility is so important in establishing that initial credibility, again, especially with a technical audience like designers.

我认为，尤其是在早期，可信度对于建立最初的可信度非常重要，尤其是对于设计师等技术受众而言。

The second is actually building the product with your users.

第二个是实际与用户一起构建产品。

And I know you had Sho on your podcast and he talked a lot about this too, just the customer obsession that we have the care of, especially that editor tool.

我知道你的播客上有 Sho，他也谈到了很多关于这一点，只是我们所关心的客户痴迷，尤其是那个编辑器工具。

Claire Butler: The third is finding a place where you can, in a way, that you can build this relationship over time.

克莱尔·巴特勒：第三是找到一个地方，在某种程度上，你可以随着时间的推移建立这种关系。

Maybe that's specifically through a channel where they don't have to come to you, because they don't really care about you yet and they're probably not going to convert right away or start using you right away, so how do you get them to stick with you over time?

也许这是专门通过一个他们不必来找你的渠道，因为他们还没有真正关心你，他们可能不会立即转换或开始使用你，那么你如何让他们随着时间的推移坚持与你在一起呢？

So, find out the channel where you can do that and then continue to build that relationship with them.

因此，找到可以做到这一点的渠道，然后继续与他们建立关系。

And then the four is just being extremely transparent and honest to build that relationship with people.

然后，这四个人就以极其透明和诚实的方式与人们建立这种关系。

I know those all sound really fuzzy, so maybe we can go into them specifically.

我知道这些听起来都很模糊，所以也许我们可以具体讨论一下。

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

I was going to ask.

我正想问。

Claire Butler: Because they sound really fuzzy when you talk about them.

克莱尔·巴特勒：因为当你谈论它们时，它们听起来真的很模糊。

A lot of this stuff is hard like that, where you're like, "Oh, that just sounds like buzzwords." I can give you some examples of these four things, so maybe it helps to give some color to it.

很多这样的东西都很难，你会想，“哦，这听起来就像流行语。”我可以给你举一些关于这四件事的例子，所以也许它有助于给它一些色彩。

Claire Butler: Let's start with the first one, credibility.

克莱尔·巴特勒：让我们从第一个开始，可信度。

Okay.

好的。

I was the first marketer at Figma.

我是 Figma 的第一位营销人员。

I think one of the things I learned right away, very quickly was that designers don't want to hear from marketers.

我认为我很快就学到的一件事是设计师不想听到营销人员的意见。

They don't want to be marketed to and they have an extremely high bullshit meter.

他们不想被推销，而且他们的废话量表非常高。

You use a word like efficiency, collaboration, all of those buzzwords, and they're just like, "I don't want to hear this." Traditional product marketing kind of stuff just doesn't work.

你使用像效率、协作这样的词，所有这些流行词，他们就像是，“我不想听这个。”传统的产品营销之类的东西根本行不通。

They wanted to hear technical features.

他们想听听技术特点。

They wanted to understand how technical features work.

他们想了解技术功能是如何工作的。

They want to hear, "How am I going to use this?" And then they'll see the benefits, but they don't want to hear from marketers and they don't want to be marketed to.

他们想听到“我将如何使用这个？”然后他们会看到好处，但他们不想听到营销人员的意见，也不想被推销。

Claire Butler: And so I think especially with our audience in the early days, one of the things that I did was really try to not market.

克莱尔·巴特勒：所以我认为，特别是对于早期的观众，我所做的一件事就是尝试不进行营销。

And that's so funny as a marketer to say that, but that was really core to build authenticity with people.

作为一名营销人员，这样说很有趣，但这确实是与人们建立真实性的核心。

And so the way that we did that in the early days was what we had was the tool, and that's pretty much what we had, and we had a design team and we had an engineering team.

因此，我们早期的做法就是我们所拥有的工具，这几乎就是我们所拥有的，我们有一个设计团队，我们有一个工程团队。

We did some cool stuff in the tool.

我们在该工具中做了一些很酷的事情。

First of all, the tool itself was a technical feat.

首先，该工具本身就是一项技术壮举。

It was the first time it used video game technology, WebGL.

这是它第一次使用视频游戏技术 WebGL。

Evan's a prodigy.

埃文是个神童。

The fact that he got a design tool to work on the internet was just amazing, and so there was a lot of engineering interest there, credibility building of, "How did you get this to work?" [NEW_PARAGRAPH]I got him to make technical content and that, I think, went to number one on Hacker News, that people were just interested in him.

事实上，他得到了一个可以在互联网上运行的设计工具，这真是太棒了，所以人们对工程产生了很大的兴趣，建立了可信度，“你是如何让它发挥作用的？” [NEW_PARAGRAPH]我让他制作技术内容，我认为这在黑客新闻上排名第一，人们只是对他感兴趣。

And then we had a design team, and our design team was our target audience.

然后我们有一个设计团队，我们的设计团队就是我们的目标受众。

And so we talked a lot about how we chose to build features, all the things that went into it.

因此，我们讨论了很多关于如何选择构建功能以及其中涉及的所有内容。

And so many of the primitives of design tools have been like that forever, and so we changed the stuff.

设计工具的许多原语一直都是这样，所以我们改变了这些东西。

One of them would be how we did grids or how we did vector networks, and we'd go into these really deep details of how we chose to make those product decisions, all the craft decisions that went into it.

其中之一是我们如何制作网格或如何制作矢量网络，我们将深入探讨如何选择做出这些产品决策以及其中涉及的所有工艺决策的这些非常深入的细节。

Claire Butler: I remember one of my bars were deciding if something would hit this or not, if they would be interested was, "Did I understand it?" You know what I mean?

克莱尔·巴特勒（Claire Butler）：我记得我的一家酒吧正在决定是否有东西会击中这个，他们是否会感兴趣，“我理解了吗？”你知道我的意思？

And if I understood it, it was probably too basic, or if I could have written it myself, it was probably too basic.

如果我理解它，它可能太基础了，或者如果我可以自己写它，它可能太基础了。

I remember we did one on grids in the early days, and we went really deep on Joseph Muller Brockmann and his influence on grids.

我记得我们早期在网格上做了一个，我们非常深入地研究了约瑟夫·穆勒·布罗克曼（Joseph Muller Brockmann）和他对网格的影响。

And now, I very much know who Joseph Muller Brockmann is because I work with designers, but at the time, I had to Google it.

现在，我非常知道约瑟夫·穆勒·布罗克曼是谁，因为我与设计师一起工作，但当时，我不得不用谷歌搜索它。

I was like, "Who is this?" But that was one of my bars for if something would be good enough for our technical content, was if I could have written it, it's not good enough.

我当时想，“这是谁？”但这是我的障碍之一，因为如果某些东西对于我们的技术内容来说足够好，那就是如果我可以写它，它还不够好。

And so that was key for us in building credibility, because we had this design team.

因此，这对我们建立信誉至关重要，因为我们有这个设计团队。

Claire Butler: And then when six months after we launched, I actually got to hire someone to do marketing with me, the first person I hired was actually a designer advocate.

克莱尔·巴特勒：然后，当我们推出六个月后，我实际上必须雇用一个人和我一起进行营销，我雇用的第一个人实际上是一位设计师倡导者。

So it was not a marketer, it was someone who was a designer.

所以这不是一个营销人员，而是一个设计师。

The designers and the engineers that I was trying to get to help me with stuff also had to design and build the product, so they didn't have a ton of time.

我试图帮助我的设计师和工程师也必须设计和构建产品，所以他们没有太多的时间。

But this designer advocate was working full-time with me on this stuff, and he came from our user base.

但这位设计师倡导者正在与我全职合作做这件事，他来自我们的用户群。

He was one of the very few people in the early days who just loved the product and was very passionate about it.

他是早期极少数热爱该产品并对它充满热情的人之一。

And that became his full-time job was to represent, to meet with users, talk to them, to write content and create content, and to bring that back to the product, and that was what he did.

他的全职工作就是代表、会见用户、与他们交谈、编写内容和创建内容，并将其带回到产品中，这就是他所做的。

Claire Butler: And that designer advocacy positions actually scaled with Figma, and we still have it today.

Claire Butler：设计师的倡导职位实际上随着 Figma 的规模而扩大，我们今天仍然拥有它。

It's extreme.

这是极端的。

I think it's the magic dust, we call it, that we sprinkle on go-to-market to make a lot of our go-to-market function work.

我认为这就是我们所说的“魔法灰尘”，我们撒在“上市”上，使我们的许多“上市”功能发挥作用。

But yeah, we didn't focus on marketing, or traditional marketing.

但是，是的，我们并没有专注于营销或传统营销。

We're very focused on the technical aspects.

我们非常关注技术方面。

Lenny: There's so many little lessons there.

莱尼：那里有很多小教训。

The designer advocate hire reminds me of something that Datadog did, where they hired engineers to write their blog posts.

聘请设计师倡导者让我想起了 Datadog 所做的事情，他们聘请工程师来撰写博客文章。

Claire Butler: That's a great idea.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这是个好主意。

Yes, exactly what we did.

是的，正是我们所做的。

Yes.

是的。

Lenny: So, ways you build credibility, just kind of mirroring back what you just shared, one is writing content.

莱尼：所以，建立可信度的方法，只是反映你刚刚分享的内容，其中之一就是编写内容。

Basically, putting out blog posts that designers would be like, "Oh, wow.

基本上，设计师发布博客文章时会说：“哦，哇。

This is really interesting," and start to feel like, "Oh, Figma keeps coming up in these really interesting pieces of content."

这真的很有趣，”并且开始感觉，“哦，Figma 不断出现在这些非常有趣的内容中。”

Claire Butler: Yeah, even if they were using it, and I think that that was important.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，即使他们正在使用它，我认为这很重要。

When we launched, people wanted to test it because it was cool and see what it is, but then they bounced.

当我们推出时，人们想测试它，因为它很酷，看看它是什么，但后来他们就反弹了。

They're like, "All right.

他们就像，“好吧。

This isn't advanced enough.

这还不够先进。

I'll come back later." Which is why we're give them reasons to come back, being like, "Oh, yeah, but the pen tools always worked like this, but we did it like that.

我稍后回来。”这就是为什么我们给他们回来的理由，就像，“哦，是的，但是钢笔工具总是这样工作，但我们就是这样做的。

You should test that out." And so we kept giving them these nuggets of reasons to come back in.

你应该测试一下。”所以我们不断地给他们提供一些回归的理由。

Remember, this was also before multiplayer, and so we couldn't collaborate, so it was use the tools to do these things.

请记住，这也是在多人游戏之前，所以我们无法协作，所以只能使用工具来完成这些事情。

That really helps people come back into the tool and spend a little bit more time in it.

这确实可以帮助人们重新使用该工具并花更多时间在其中。

Lenny: How many posts would you say you put out in that first six months, just to give people a sense of here's how much?

莱尼：你认为在前六个月里你发布了多少帖子，只是为了让人们了解这里有多少？

It's probably not a ton, right?

可能不是很多，对吧？

It's probably some few really good ones.

这可能是一些非常好的。

Claire Butler: They took a long time.

克莱尔·巴特勒：他们花了很长时间。

Also, I had to work with an engineer or a designer to do every single one.

此外，我必须与工程师或设计师合作来完成每一项工作。

Maybe 10 at most.

也许最多 10 个。

But those ones that went out, we tried to get on Hacker News.

但那些出去的，我们试图上《黑客新闻》。

We tried to get on Designer News at the time.

当时我们试图收听《设计师新闻》。

Twitter, we can jump into that, but it was also extremely big for us.

Twitter，我们可以跳进去，但它对我们来说也非常大。

And so it was more about quality than it was about quantity.

因此，质量比数量更重要。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, so one is put out great content.

好的，这样就发布了很棒的内容。

People are like, "Oh, wow.

人们就像是，“哦，哇。

Figma's got some new ideas and maybe I should pay attention." The other is having someone that's that function actually talk to them.

Figma 有一些新想法，也许我应该关注。”另一个是让具有该功能的人真正与他们交谈。

Claire Butler: Yes.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的。

That was when we started accelerating this much, much more is when we brought in that designer advocate to help us with this full-time.

就在那时，我们开始加快步伐，更多的是当我们聘请设计师倡导者全职帮助我们完成这项工作时。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

Okay.

好的。

Let's move to the next one, which I think is building with your customers.

让我们进入下一个，我认为这是与您的客户一起构建的。

Claire Butler: That one, I know you talked to Show, he talked a lot about this, this idea of customer obsession and of building with your customers.

克莱尔·巴特勒：那个，我知道你和秀谈过，他谈了很多关于客户至上和与客户共建的想法。

And it also goes back to that whole decision that we talked about earlier, about when to come out of stealth.

这也可以追溯到我们之前讨论过的整个决定，即何时退出隐身状态。

You can only build so much with your customers when you're in stealth, because you don't have that many that know about you.

当你秘密行动时，你只能与你的客户建立这么多的东西，因为你没有那么多人了解你。

But especially, even in the early days when we only had a couple people, we really did listen.

但尤其是，即使在早期我们只有几个人的时候，我们也确实在倾听。

And back to also what you were saying earlier about those steps to product market fit, get one person to use it.

回到您之前所说的有关产品市场契合度的步骤，让一个人使用它。

That's really what we were focused on, especially in the very, very early days.

这确实是我们关注的重点，尤其是在非常非常早期的时候。

Claire Butler: I remember the first one, I think I've told this story before, but was that we had Coda.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我记得第一个，我想我以前讲过这个故事，但我们有 Coda。

They were our first user and they were based in Palo Alto.

他们是我们的第一个用户，他们的总部位于帕洛阿尔托。

Dylan and I drove down and demoed the product to them, and they were the first ones.

迪伦和我开车过来向他们演示产品，他们是第一批。

Their designer, Jeremy, was like, "Yes, we'll take this on full-time." And I remember, we were both like, "What?

他们的设计师 Jeremy 说：“是的，我们会全职承担这个工作。”我记得，我们俩都说，“什么？

Really?

真的吗？

You will?" That was the first person who said yes to us, and so we were so excited.

你会吗？”那是第一个对我们说“是”的人，所以我们非常兴奋。

This was a huge milestone.

这是一个巨大的里程碑。

We went to Oren's Hummus in Palo Alto on the way back to the office to bring some back for the team to celebrate.

在返回办公室的路上，我们去了帕洛阿尔托的奥伦鹰嘴豆泥，带了一些回来供团队庆祝。

We were just so stoked.

我们太兴奋了。

Claire Butler: And then we got back to the office, and I think Dylan gets a text from Jeremy being like, "Oh, yeah.

克莱尔·巴特勒：然后我们回到办公室，我想迪伦收到了杰里米发来的短信，“哦，是的。

I tried to share this with Philippe, my engineer, and he can't get the file to open, so I guess he can't use it." And we're like, "What is it?

我试图与我的工程师菲利普分享这个，但他无法打开该文件，所以我猜他无法使用它。”我们就像，“这是什么？

What happened?

发生了什么事？

We finally got someone." And I remember Dylan was like, "Everybody drop everything.

我们终于有人了。”我记得迪伦说：“每个人都放下一切。

We have to fix this." And after some looking at the servers and things, they were like, "Nothing's wrong," and then they realized it was a problem with Philippe's MacBook.

我们必须解决这个问题。”在检查了服务器和其他东西之后，他们说“没有什么问题”，然后他们意识到这是 Philippe 的 MacBook 的问题。

Evan had a car, so Dylan had to drive Evan down to Palo Alto to fix the MacBook of Philippe just to get them to use the product.

Evan 有车，所以 Dylan 不得不开车送 Evan 去帕洛阿尔托修理 Philippe 的 MacBook，只是为了让他们使用该产品。

So anyway, get them to stick around.

所以无论如何，让他们留下来。

That's the first one.

这是第一个。

Claire Butler: But the building with people, the way that we did that was largely through just each person.

克莱尔·巴特勒：但是这座人满为患的建筑，我们的做法很大程度上是通过每个人。

We really cared and listened to their feedback, especially when there were only a few people.

我们非常关心并听取了他们的反馈，尤其是在只有少数人的情况下。

One way we did that was, I remember we implemented Intercom back in the early days, and there were so few users and so few of us that everybody was on Intercom all day too.

我们这样做的一种方法是，我记得我们在早期就实现了 Intercom，当时用户很少，我们的人也很少，所以每个人也整天都在使用 Intercom。

And so we'd get a chat and I would jump in sometimes.

所以我们会聊天，有时我也会插话。

Dylan would jump in, an engineer would jump in.

迪伦会介入，工程师也会介入。

And he'd open up a chat with people and they'd actually debug the product with us live.

他会与人们聊天，他们会与我们一起现场调试产品。

They'd be like, "I have this bug," and this engineer would be like, "Let me QA it right now." And so that was one example.

他们会说，“我有这个错误”，而这位工程师会说，“让我现在就对其进行质量检查。”这就是一个例子。

We all did support back in that day, and the engineers would talk to users directly, get their feedback, and then go immediately fix things like bugs.

那天我们都做了支持，工程师会直接与用户交谈，获取他们的反馈，然后立即修复错误等问题。

Claire Butler: And so those are just examples of in the early days, what that looks like, and that just scales a lot over time as you're growing and you're talking to more people.

克莱尔·巴特勒：所以这些只是早期的例子，随着时间的推移，随着你的成长和与更多人交谈，它会扩大很多。

That advocate ended up helping us a ton when they came on board, because some of this stuff, I mean, none of this stuff scales.

当这位倡导者加入时，他们最终为我们提供了很多帮助，因为其中一些东西，我的意思是，这些东西都没有规模。

Your engineers can't do support forever.

您的工程师无法永远提供支持。

In the early days, that becomes really important.

在早期，这变得非常重要。

But when we brought that advocate in, their whole job was talking to users, getting them to try to use the product, but then taking their feedback back when it wasn't something that wasn't working.

但是当我们引入该倡导者时，他们的全部工作就是与用户交谈，让他们尝试使用该产品，然后在产品没有出现问题时收回他们的反馈。

Claire Butler: That helped us scale a lot, so that became really essential, and then telling people, "Oh, we fixed this." It made them feel more ownership of the tool too, being like, "Oh, yeah.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这帮助我们扩大了规模，所以这变得非常重要，然后告诉人们，“哦，我们解决了这个问题。”这也让他们对这个工具有了更多的归属感，就像，“哦，是的。

I asked them to do this.

我要求他们这样做。

They did it." That's just another way where you just build a strong relationship with people, because they feel very invested in your journey with you.

他们做到了。”这只是你与人们建立牢固关系的另一种方式，因为他们觉得你对你的旅程非常投入。

Lenny: Which goes back to building credibility.

莱尼：这可以追溯到建立信誉。

Lenny: There's so many important lessons there.

莱尼：那里有很多重要的教训。

You talked about scaling this, but interestingly, this is very much doing things that don't scale; driving to their office, fixing their wifi on their laptop.

您谈到了扩展这一点，但有趣的是，这在很大程度上是在做一些无法扩展的事情；开车去他们的办公室，在笔记本电脑上修复无线网络。

Claire Butler: Early days, nothing scales in the early days.

克莱尔·巴特勒：早期，没有任何规模。

You just have to do it anyway.

无论如何你都必须这样做。

Lenny: Just as a tangent, we're talking about getting people to love your product initially.

莱尼：顺便说一句，我们谈论的是让人们一开始就喜欢你的产品。

Why is love so important?

为什么爱如此重要？

That's a really high bar, and I imagine you have an interesting insight on just why it needs to be that level of appreciation.

这是一个非常高的标准，我想你对为什么需要达到这种程度的欣赏有一个有趣的见解。

Claire Butler: Yeah, and it doesn't have to be over time.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，而且不一定要随着时间的推移。

These are all things that maybe they just use it first or they're interested, but by the time you're getting to the organization level, or I'm spreading this to my other spheres of influence, like my community, people I know, you're kind of putting yourself on the line.

这些都是他们可能首先使用的东西或者他们感兴趣的东西，但是当你到达组织级别，或者我将其传播到我的其他影响范围时，比如我的社区，我认识的人，你就有点把自己置于危险之中。

You're taking a risk when you're doing that, especially if it's your job.

当你这样做时，你就是在冒险，尤其是如果这是你的工作的话。

You're bringing other people in, and you're not going to do that unless you really believe in something.

你要把其他人带进来，除非你真的相信某件事，否则你不会这样做。

And so just using it isn't enough to get someone over that stage of going from just a user to a champion.

因此，仅仅使用它并不足以让某人完成从用户到冠军的阶段。

And so I think it is this love thing becomes important, because you just don't get the scalability and spread of someone doing this for you unless they have that level of passion.

所以我认为这种爱的事情变得很重要，因为除非他们有那种程度的热情，否则你就无法获得为你做这件事的人的可扩展性和传播性。

Lenny: That's an awesome lesson.

莱尼：这是一个很棒的教训。

I hope people are taking that in.

我希望人们能够接受这一点。

You shared this story of Coda and Sho.

您分享了 Coda 和 Sho 的故事。

Actually, he wasn't on a podcast.

事实上，他并没有上播客。

He wrote a newsletter and he shared all this stuff.

他写了一份时事通讯并分享了所有这些东西。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

People often confuse the two.

人们经常混淆两者。

They assume it's kind of the same thing.

他们认为这是同一件事。

But he talked about how when he joined Figma, this happened.

但他谈到了当他加入 Figma 时，这件事是如何发生的。

Dylan's like, "We need to fix this problem." He's like, "They're not even paying us.

迪伦说：“我们需要解决这个问题。”他说：“他们甚至不付钱给我们。

Who is this?

这是谁？

We have real things to build.

我们有真正的东西要建造。

Why do we have to hop on this bug?" And then later, he realized why that was so important, and that was a big lesson he learned from Dylan of just this needs to be taken really seriously.

为什么我们必须跳上这个错误？”后来，他意识到为什么这如此重要，这是他从迪伦那里学到的重要教训，需要非常认真地对待这一点。

If someone's trying to use your product, help them actually be successful.

如果有人尝试使用您的产品，请帮助他们真正取得成功。

Claire Butler: And we didn't have very many of them, but it's like, yeah, back to what you were saying earlier, how do you get one person to actually use it?

克莱尔·巴特勒：我们没有很多这样的工具，但是，是的，回到你之前所说的，如何让一个人真正使用它？

And so we very much cared that that one person stuck with it and didn't bounce.

所以我们非常关心那个人能坚持下去并且不会弹跳。

Lenny: Today's episode is brought to you by AssemblyAI.

Lenny：今天的节目是由 AssemblyAI 为您带来的。

If you're looking to build AI-powered features in your audio and video products, then you need to know about AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to transcribe and understand speech at scale.

如果您希望在音频和视频产品中构建人工智能驱动的功能，那么您需要了解 AssemblyAI，它可以轻松地大规模转录和理解语音。

What I love about AssemblyAI is you can use their simple API to access the latest AI breakthroughs from top-tier research labs.

我喜欢 AssemblyAI 的一点是，您可以使用其简单的 API 来访问顶级研究实验室的最新 AI 突破。

Product teams at startups and enterprises are using AssemblyAI to automatically transcribe and summarize phone calls and virtual meetings, detect topics in podcasts, pinpoint when sensitive content is spoken, and lots more.

初创公司和企业的产品团队正在使用 AssemblyAI 自动转录和总结电话和虚拟会议、检测播客中的主题、查明何时说出敏感内容等等。

Lenny: All of AssemblyAI's models which are accessed through their API are production-ready.

Lenny：通过 API 访问的所有 AssemblyAI 模型都已做好生产准备。

So many PMs I know are considering or already building with AI, and AssemblyAI is the fastest way to build with AI for audio use cases.

我认识的许多产品经理正在考虑或已经使用 AI 进行构建，而 AssemblyAI 是使用 AI 构建音频用例的最快方法。

Now's the time to check out AssemblyAI, which makes it easy to bring the highest accuracy transcription plus valuable insights to your customers, just like Spotify, CallRail, and Writer do for theirs.

现在是时候看看 AssemblyAI 了，它可以轻松地为您的客户带来最准确的转录和有价值的见解，就像 Spotify、CallRail 和 Writer 为他们的客户所做的那样。

Visit assemblyai.com/lenny to try their API for free and start testing their models with their no-code playground.

请访问 assemblyai.com/lenny 免费试用他们的 API，并开始使用无代码游乐场测试他们的模型。

That's assemblyai.

这就是集会。

com/lenny.

com/莱尼。

Lenny: So, coming back to this go-to-market model that we're talking about, we're still talking about get ICs at a company to love you.

Lenny：那么，回到我们正在谈论的进入市场模式，我们仍然在谈论让一家公司爱上你的 IC。

Step one was build credibility.

第一步是建立信誉。

Step two, I don't know if these are steps or just things you do in some sequence or not, step two is build with your users.

第二步，我不知道这些是步骤还是只是您按某种顺序执行的操作，第二步是与您的用户一起构建。

What come next?

接下来会发生什么？

Claire Butler: Oh, the next one is, this can take time.

克莱尔·巴特勒：哦，下一个是，这可能需要时间。

I think that's a big one.

我认为这是一件大事。

And also in the early days, they're not going to necessarily use you right away, and so it might take time.

而且在早期，他们不一定会立即使用你，所以这可能需要时间。

And then also, when you do get a couple of people who start to use your product, they're going to also start wondering what other people think about your product.

而且，当你确实有几个人开始使用你的产品时，他们也会开始想知道其他人对你的产品的看法。

And when you're the only marketing hire, and this is something marketers ask me a lot when they're the only marketer in an organization is, "How do you focus and prioritize, because there's so many things you could do?

当你是唯一的营销人员时，这是营销人员经常问我的问题，当他们是组织中唯一的营销人员时，“你如何集中精力并确定优先顺序，因为你可以做很多事情？

How do you decide what to do?" And so the thing that I think about a lot in this early phase, in thinking about ICs is, "How do you get to them, and where can you go where they already are as opposed to making them come to you?"

你如何决定要做什么？”因此，在这个早期阶段，在考虑 IC 时，我经常思考的事情是，“你如何获得它们，以及你可以去哪里，而不是让它们来找你？”

Claire Butler: Because I'm a firm believer, I think now, we have spaces where people can come to us, but in the early days especially, they're not going to come to your space.

克莱尔·巴特勒：因为我是一个坚定的信徒，我想现在我们有空间让人们可以来找我们，但特别是在早期，他们不会来你的空间。

They don't know you.

他们不认识你。

They don't care about you.

他们不关心你。

They don't want to go to your Slack channel or something.

他们不想访问您的 Slack 频道或其他内容。

You have to go to them.

你必须去找他们。

And so for us, Dylan really identified immediately that Twitter was the place where that existed, and that had nothing to do with us specifically.

因此，对于我们来说，迪伦确实立即意识到 Twitter 就是存在的地方，而这与我们具体无关。

The design community existed on Twitter way before we did, and that's something that they just did on their own and that grew over time.

设计社区早在我们之前就已经在 Twitter 上存在了，这是他们自己做的事情，并且随着时间的推移而不断发展。

They had this large network on Twitter of influencers, and that's also how people learned about things.

他们在 Twitter 上拥有庞大的影响者网络，这也是人们了解事物的方式。

Claire Butler: Also, design's changing all the time, and so people would share best practices, things that they were doing, resources, and that just became kind of a home for designers.

克莱尔·巴特勒：此外，设计一直在变化，因此人们会分享最佳实践、他们正在做的事情、资源，这成了设计师的家。

So, we really went all in on Twitter.

所以，我们确实在 Twitter 上全力以赴。

That really became a key, our channel that we focused on, and really only focused on one.

这确实成为了关键，我们关注的渠道，而且实际上只关注一个。

That was it, and we got pretty advanced on how we did this.

就是这样，我们在如何做到这一点上已经取得了相当大的进展。

Dylan is also a great engineer, if you don't know that about him, or a scrappy engineer who- PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:46:04]

迪伦也是一位伟大的工程师，如果你不了解他的话，或者是一位斗志旺盛的工程师，第四部分结束 [00:46:04]

Claire Butler: A great engineer if you don't know that about him, or a scrappy engineer who could figure things out.

克莱尔·巴特勒（Claire Butler）：如果你不了解他的话，他是一位伟大的工程师，或者是一位能够解决问题的斗志旺盛的工程师。

And he had this idea and he built this tool or this scraper where he identified a couple influencers in the design community.

他有了这个想法，并构建了这个工具或这个刮刀，在那里他确定了设计社区中的几个有影响力的人。

People he thought were people he wanted to learn from and to talk to.

他认为这些人是他想要学习和交谈的人。

And he inputted them into this scraper thing that he made.

他将它们输入到他制作的刮刀中。

And then back to this, another node graph, he figured out who followed them and who followed those people and also the influence that these people had over other people, and made this massive node graph of these pockets of different topics of design.

然后回到另一个节点图，他弄清楚了谁追随了他们，谁追随了这些人，以及这些人对其他人的影响，并制作了不同设计主题的这些口袋的巨大节点图。

And when he looked at it, you'd see a cluster.

当他观察时，你会看到一簇。

So you'd have the cluster of iconographers, graphic designers, product managers, and you'd see them all there and you'd see who the influencers were in those areas.

所以你会看到一群图像设计师、平面设计师、产品经理，你会看到他们都在那里，你会看到谁是这些领域的影响者。

And what we did is we found who were most influential to start.

我们所做的就是找到最有影响力的人。

Claire Butler: And that was another source, back to using whatever you can to get people to try your products.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这是另一个来源，回到尽你所能让人们尝试你的产品。

That's who we asked for feedback in the early days too.

这也是我们早期要求反馈的人。

Just DMed them.

刚刚私聊了他们。

We were like, hey, Raji, we'd love feedback, your feedback on Figma.

我们的反应是，嘿，Raji，我们希望得到反馈，即您对 Figma 的反馈。

And that was one of the ways we got to people, but that's also people who we followed, people who we tried to build this connection with on Twitter in the early days.

这是我们接触人们的方式之一，但这也是我们关注的人，我们早期试图在 Twitter 上与之建立联系的人。

And that's also where we pushed out that technical content that I was talking about.

这也是我们推出我正在谈论的技术内容的地方。

And then we tried to just drive and spur a conversation about these things.

然后我们试图推动并激发有关这些事情的对话。

First it was our launches, but then later it was this technical content or whatever it was that we were producing so that we could go to people instead of making them come to us just in their feed.

首先是我们的发布，但后来是我们正在制作的技术内容或其他任何内容，这样我们就可以去找人们，而不是让他们只通过他们的提要来找我们。

And that became super important to us.

这对我们来说变得非常重要。

We'd also interact with people.

我们也会与人互动。

So Dylan has a huge presence, and especially in the early days and now even has a huge presence talking to users, we all did show too our engineering team.

所以迪伦有很大的影响力，尤其是在早期，现在甚至在与用户交谈时也有很大的影响力，我们也确实展示了我们的工程团队。

And so it wasn't just the brand handle, it was the people.

因此，这不仅仅是品牌的影响力，还有人。

And I think that that's really important to put a personal face behind things, connect with people, answer questions for people, live there.

我认为，在事物背后展现个人面孔、与人们联系、为人们回答问题、生活在那里，这一点非常重要。

And over time, we just built this very engaged group of people on Twitter with Figma.

随着时间的推移，我们用 Figma 在 Twitter 上建立了这个非常活跃的群体。

And that's still a huge place for us where the design community lives and where we get a lot from our users too.

对于我们来说，这仍然是一个巨大的地方，设计社区在这里生活，我们也从用户那里得到很多东西。

And I think the focus on that, and I think why it's so important is it allows people to passively follow you over time without having to invest in you, within the tool.

我认为对这一点的关注，我认为为什么它如此重要，是因为它允许人们随着时间的推移被动地关注你，而不必在工具内对你进行投资。

So it was our way, especially because we knew it would take a while to build a product and get to a place for people to switch full time for them to follow along with us and build that confidence with us over time and keep coming back to the tool.

所以这就是我们的方式，特别是因为我们知道需要一段时间来构建产品并让人们全职转岗，让他们跟随我们，随着时间的推移与我们建立信心，并不断回到该工具。

Lenny: That Twitter graph story is so legendary.

莱尼：那个 Twitter 图表故事太传奇了。

I think Dylan even shared the code online.

我认为迪伦甚至在网上分享了代码。

I'm going to try to find that tweet.

我会尝试找到那条推文。

Claire Butler: Yeah, it's so good.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，太棒了。

We still use it.

我们仍然使用它。

We used it again when we were launching another product, we were like, oh, can we go pull that Twitter graph for another audience?

当我们推出另一个产品时，我们再次使用了它，我们想，哦，我们可以为其他受众提取 Twitter 图表吗？

I don't know if we ended up using, how much we ended up using it, but I definitely looked at it and I was like, oh, this is so interesting to see for developers or whatever it was that we were looking at.

我不知道我们最终是否使用了它，我们最终使用了多少它，但我确实看了它，我想，哦，这对于开发人员或我们正在查看的任何东西来说非常有趣。

Lenny: And also what you just mentioned is really interesting that he wasn't using it to go sell people on the product.

莱尼：而且你刚才提到的非常有趣的是，他并没有用它来向人们推销该产品。

It was first get feedback on the product, which ends up selling them.

首先是获得产品的反馈，最终将产品出售。

Claire Butler: Oh no, we never heard sold the product.

克莱尔·巴特勒：哦不，我们从未听说过出售该产品。

It was always about feedback.

这始终与反馈有关。

And I think that that's so key to all of this is all about feedback.

我认为这一切的关键就是反馈。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

There's so many lessons here.

这里有很多教训。

There's a fourth bullet I think, around building relationships with users.

我认为第四点是围绕与用户建立关系。

Claire Butler: Oh, just transparency and authenticity.

克莱尔·巴特勒：哦，只是透明度和真实性。

So I think that that really comes into when you get to the scale part, I'm talking about early days, being transparent with your users, and a lot of that does come down to the stuff we talked about too, about downtime, about what that looks like.

所以我认为，当你谈到规模部分时，这确实会涉及到，我说的是早期，对用户保持透明，其中很多确实归结为我们也讨论过的东西，关于停机时间，关于它的样子。

And we just did that naturally with people one-on-one in those early days.

在早期，我们只是自然地与人们一对一地这样做。

But I think where it gets harder, and we stuck with it because it's in our DNA and how we act, is when you get to scale and you have to still do that stuff with a lot of people who care and who do these things with you.

但我认为事情变得更困难，我们坚持下去，因为它存在于我们的 DNA 和我们的行为方式中，当你扩大规模时，你仍然必须与很多关心你并与你一起做这些事情的人一起做这些事情。

But I think it's just so important that you are honest and also you don't hide behind the brand.

但我认为诚实并且不隐藏在品牌背后非常重要。

That you're human and authentic and transparent with people.

你是人性化的、真诚的、对人透明的。

And we can pull up the examples.

我们可以举出例子。

I think the better examples are probably at scale than even in the early days because that's when it gets harder to do that.

我认为更好的例子可能比早期更大规模，因为那时做到这一点变得更加困难。

Lenny: So let's chat about that.

莱尼：那我们来谈谈这个吧。

Just...

只是...

So this is about getting started.

所以这是关于开始的。

Lenny: How do you do this at scale?

莱尼：你如何大规模地做到这一点？

Or does it change completely?

还是完全改变了？

Do you continue doing this in a different way?

您会继续以不同的方式这样做吗？

How do you approach it as the company grows?

随着公司的发展，您如何应对？

Claire Butler: You just totally still do it, right?

克莱尔·巴特勒：你仍然这样做，对吧？

I think that that's just so important, that's how it stays, right?

我认为这非常重要，所以就一直如此，对吗？

In the early days you do this stuff and you kind of get the flywheel going.

在早期，你做这些事情，你就可以让飞轮运转起来。

You get these people, you have these people who love you, but today that's still how Figma spreads the most, right?

你有这些人，你有这些爱你的人，但今天这仍然是 Figma 传播最多的方式，对吗？

We're going into new markets, we're going into new places, we're launching a new tool, and that becomes so important to how we still drive adoption.

我们正在进入新的市场，我们正在进入新的地方，我们正在推出一种新工具，这对于我们如何推动采用变得非常重要。

And so some of those things, the tactics, look a little bit different, but the themes are still the same and what that looks like at scale.

因此，其中一些事情，即策略，看起来有点不同，但主题仍然是相同的，从规模上看也是一样的。

A couple of just examples of that are those advocates, right?

这些倡导者就是其中的几个例子，对吧？

That's I think a huge one.

我认为这是一个巨大的。

When I was a marketer that advocate was just my partner.

当我还是一名营销人员时，倡导者只是我的合作伙伴。

He gut-checked everything that I did.

他仔细检查了我所做的一切。

He'd be like, no, that's too thirsty here.

他会说，不，这里太渴了。

Claire Butler: You're using a fluff word again.

克莱尔·巴特勒：你又用了废话。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

Also, he was how we pitched the company.

此外，他也是我们推销公司的方式。

He was the people we talked to, he'd go to lunch at Etsy or whatever and just get feedback on things.

他是我们交谈的对象，他会去 Etsy 之类的地方吃午饭，然后得到一些反馈。

And that function has really grown with Figma.

该功能确实随着 Figma 的发展而发展。

So now that's a whole team at Figma, it's a large team and it's scaled with us with every product that we launch.

现在 Figma 已经是一个完整的团队了，这是一个庞大的团队，并且随着我们推出的每一款产品的推出而不断扩大规模。

So now we have developer advocates, FigJam advocates, and regionally.

所以现在我们有开发者倡导者、FigJam 倡导者和区域性倡导者。

So we go into a new region and they're part of the landing team.

所以我们进入一个新区域，他们是登陆团队的一部分。

We're in Japan, we need to find the Japan, now we have two of them, it's the Japan designer advocate because it's just so core to how we do things and we've scaled that.

我们在日本，我们需要找到日本，现在我们有两个，这是日本设计师的倡导者，因为它是我们做事方式的核心，而且我们已经扩展了它。

So I think on the credibility side, I think that those advocates and scaling those advocates are the magic dust that, I always call them the magic dust, that make sure that we are able to build those relationships and stay authentic around everything we do.

因此，我认为在可信度方面，我认为这些倡导者和扩大这些倡导者的规模是神奇的灰尘，我总是称它们为神奇的灰尘，确保我们能够建立这些关系并在我们所做的一切中保持真实。

Lenny: And these advocates, again, they're just, their background is designer, and then they end up being an advocate designer?

莱尼：这些倡导者，再说一遍，他们只是，他们的背景是设计师，然后他们最终成为了倡导者设计师？

Claire Butler: It's now developer, FigJam person.

Claire Butler：现在是开发商，FigJam 人。

But they're passionate that...

但他们热衷于...

Their profile is, they're passionate users who oftentimes they find us more than we find them, right?

他们的简介是，他们是热情的用户，他们经常找到我们，而不是我们找到他们，对吧？

You couldn't just post this job online and go source for it.

你不能只是把这份工作发布到网上然后去寻找它的来源。

It's like this will emerge from the community and then they love it so much and they know the product so well.

就好像这个产品会从社区中出现，然后他们非常喜欢它并且非常了解这个产品。

They're technical experts.

他们是技术专家。

But yes, they were, for the designer ones, they were all previously product designers.

但是，是的，对于设计师来说，他们以前都是产品设计师。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Is there anything else you want to share around at scale, how these things change?

您还有什么想大规模分享的吗？这些事情是如何变化的？

You mentioned transparency ends up being really important.

您提到透明度最终非常重要。

What else there do you think is really important?

您认为还有什么是真正重要的？

Claire Butler: I think there's two examples.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我认为有两个例子。

The one is building with users.

一是与用户一起构建。

Because I think this is a good one that I like to get into because you're like, how do you scale that?

因为我认为这是一个我喜欢参与的好领域，因为你会想，你如何扩展它？

You get so many bug requests, you go to our feature request page on our forum, and it's just so many.

您会收到如此多的错误请求，当您访问我们论坛上的功能请求页面时，就会发现数量如此之多。

But also as you're building product, you're always like, oh, well I could go do all of these fixes and bug updates, but I also have to go build new stuff to grow.

但当你构建产品时，你总是会想，哦，好吧，我可以去做所有这些修复和错误更新，但我也必须去构建新的东西来成长。

And that's always a tension with any company as you're looking at a roadmap.

当你在考虑路线图时，这对任何公司来说都是一个紧张的问题。

One of the ways that we've done that and still continue to focus on things that people care about that's so related to the craft of quality is through we do quality weeks with engineering.

我们已经做到这一点并且仍然继续关注人们关心的与质量工艺密切相关的事情的方法之一是通过我们进行工程质量周。

Claire Butler: And then we decided a couple years ago, we had this idea where we were like, oh, what if we package all of those quality updates up into one thing and launch them together and we could even show the tweet or the forum request that spurred us to do this.

克莱尔·巴特勒：几年前我们决定，我们有这样的想法，哦，如果我们将所有这些质量更新打包成一件事并一起发布它们，我们甚至可以显示促使我们这样做的推文或论坛请求。

And that was where our idea of little big updates came, which is a launch that we do every year.

这就是我们“小而大的更新”的想法的由来，这是我们每年都会进行的发布。

Figma, they come from these quality weeks with engineering, that's where the engineers can just go and look at Twitter, talk to our support team, get all these small things that annoy people to fix them, and they just fix them all and they get so many done.

Figma，他们来自这些质量周的工程，工程师们可以去看看 Twitter，与我们的支持团队交谈，解决所有这些让人们烦恼的小问题来解决它们，他们只是解决所有这些问题，然后他们就完成了很多工作。

And then we launch them all together.

然后我们一起启动它们。

And that's one of our most popular launches that we do because people are like, yes, I care about this.

这是我们所做的最受欢迎的发布之一，因为人们会说，是的，我关心这个。

This improves my quality of life every single day.

这每天都提高了我的生活质量。

Claire Butler: Back to that discussion of two clicks versus one click and things like that, they're that small, but we still do it.

克莱尔·巴特勒：回到两次点击与一次点击之类的讨论，它们很小，但我们仍然这样做。

And I love that little big updates when I think, Airbnb did something like that too, with the a hundred updates thing on their website.

当我想到 Airbnb 也做了类似的事情时，我喜欢那些小的大更新，在他们的网站上有一百个更新。

Lenny: Airbnb has shifted fully to that, which is only big launches, just wait twice a year and launch a bunch of stuff.

Lenny：Airbnb 已经完全转向这种方式，即只发布大型产品，每年等待两次，然后推出一堆东西。

That's exactly, that's fully how they operate.

这就是他们的运作方式。

Claire Butler: That's another way that we do the building with, and I think that even giving the engineers, we give them the ability to pick them, right?

克莱尔·巴特勒：这是我们建造建筑的另一种方式，我认为即使给了工程师，我们也让他们有能力挑选工程师，对吗？

So they're like, oh, yep, this tweet, I want to fix this bug.

所以他们就像，哦，是的，这条推文，我想修复这个错误。

Lenny: That's got to be so satisfying.

莱尼：那一定很令人满意。

Claire Butler: Yeah, exactly.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，完全正确。

And in the marketing even, we'll pull examples like, oh yeah, that for one, the person who said that.

甚至在营销中，我们也会举一些例子，比如，哦，是的，就是说这句话的人。

So that one's big.

所以那个很大。

And then on the transparency side, I think where this gets hard at scale is all of a sudden you have a lot of people who care about your products.

然后在透明度方面，我认为这在规模上变得困难的是突然间有很多人关心你的产品。

And I think it's really easy as a brand because you are a brand at this point, as you're getting bigger to be like, oh, I can hide behind my handle or the Figma handle, or do I really have to say something about this?

我认为作为一个品牌这真的很容易，因为你现在就是一个品牌，随着你变得越来越大，就像，哦，我可以躲在我的手柄或 Figma 手柄后面，或者我真的必须对此说些什么吗？

And so just two examples of things like that where you just, we've chosen to be transparent when we didn't have to be or you might not, or downtime.

这只是两个例子，比如我们选择保持透明，而我们不需要这样做，或者您可能不需要，或者停机时间。

Downtime is always a big deal.

停机总是一件大事。

And I remember there was a specific instance, I think it was last year, maybe two years ago, where there was this issue with these servers and an AWS cluster went down and we didn't know what was going on.

我记得有一个特定的实例，我想是去年，也许是两年前，这些服务器出现了这个问题，AWS 集群出现故障，我们不知道发生了什么。

Claire Butler: And so we had downtime multiple times in a week and people were pissed, right?

克莱尔·巴特勒：所以我们在一周内多次停机，人们很生气，对吗？

Things were not going well.

事情进展不顺利。

Again, back on Twitter, we built...

再次回到 Twitter，我们建立了......

The double-edged sword of Twitter is you build this strong communication channel with your users and they communicate right back to you if they're not happy.

Twitter 的双刃剑是你与用户建立了这个强大的沟通渠道，如果他们不满意，他们会立即与你沟通。

So it's inundating us.

所以它淹没了我们。

And I remember we did a public postmortem and we always do that.

我记得我们进行了公开事后分析，而且我们总是这样做。

If something happens or something goes wrong, we're like, yeah, that was bad.

如果发生什么事或出了问题，我们会说，是的，那很糟糕。

Here's what happened and here's the technical reason and here's how we fixed it.

这是发生的事情，这是技术原因，这是我们修复它的方法。

And then we tweeted that and promoted it and took just full accountability for it.

然后我们在推特上发布了这一消息并进行了宣传，并对此承担了全部责任。

And we always choose to make those choices when they're hard.

我们总是在困难的时候选择做出这些选择。

And that was just one example.

这只是一个例子。

But I think the hardest example, and back to your question of the most stressful days at Figma, the true most stressful day Figma, for me, was the day that we announced the acquisition.

但我认为最难的例子，回到你关于 Figma 压力最大的日子的问题，Figma 对我来说真正压力最大的一天是我们宣布收购的那一天。

Claire Butler: That was probably one of the harder moments of my career, where...

克莱尔·巴特勒：那可能是我职业生涯中最艰难的时刻之一，...

My brand is social, that's my job, is running social.

我的品牌是社交的，这就是我的工作，就是运营社交。

And all of a sudden you have this onslaught on social and you have to figure out what to do.

突然之间，你在社交上受到了冲击，你必须弄清楚该怎么做。

And I remember the way that we announced it was we just retweeted Dylan.

我记得我们宣布的方式是转发迪伦的推文。

That was all that we had said

这就是我们所说的一切

Claire Butler: Raji on our team, I remember I was talking to him about it and he was like, "We've got to talk to our users.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我们团队的拉吉，我记得我正在和他谈论这件事，他说，“我们必须与我们的用户交谈。

We just have to talk to them directly.

我们只需直接与他们交谈即可。

We have to show we're the same company.

我们必须证明我们是同一家公司。

We just have to not hide behind the brand." And he was totally right.

我们只需不要躲在品牌背后。”他是完全正确的。

And so I remember we decided that day that the next day we just had to have an open public forum where we could talk directly with our users and let them ask us any questions.

所以我记得那天我们决定第二天我们必须有一个开放的公共论坛，我们可以直接与我们的用户交谈，让他们问我们任何问题。

And so we'd held the Twitter space the next day with Dylan and Cho and Raji and Tom, and we just had it open and people could ask us anything they wanted and we were able to be just really honest and transparent with them about everything that we could.

因此，我们第二天与 Dylan、Cho、Raji 和 Tom 一起开设了 Twitter 空间，我们只是将其开放，人们可以问我们任何他们想要的东西，我们能够对他们诚实和透明地谈论我们所能做的一切。

Claire Butler: And I think that that is just a really good example of how even when it's really, really, really, really hard, you still have to just be transparent.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我认为这是一个很好的例子，说明即使事情真的非常非常困难，你仍然必须保持透明。

And I think that that's when the tide started to turn of people giving us a chance to prove that everything would be great, even when it's the highest stakes and the hardest thing of still listening to people, maintaining that connection and not hiding behind the brand.

我认为，从那时起，人们的潮流开始转变，让我们有机会证明一切都会很棒，即使这是最高风险和最困难的事情，仍然倾听人们的意见，保持这种联系，而不是躲在品牌背后。

Lenny: It feels like transparency is core to the values of Figma.

Lenny：感觉透明度是 Figma 价值观的核心。

Have you codified your values and is that one of them and is there anything there?

您是否已将自己的价值观编入法典？这是其中之一吗？其中有什么吗？

Claire Butler: Interesting.

克莱尔·巴特勒：有趣。

We have codified our values.

我们已经将我们的价值观编入法典。

It isn't explicitly listed out, which is interesting, but I think of it as our value, especially with our users.

它没有明确列出，这很有趣，但我认为这是我们的价值，尤其是对我们的用户而言。

We think about our values a lot as have fun with it, build community, love your craft, and all of those definitely come through, play, but maybe that should be one because I think it's so core to how we make decisions and our framework of when we have a decision which way we're going to go.

我们经常思考我们的价值观，比如享受乐趣、建立社区、热爱你的手艺，所有这些肯定都会实现、发挥，但也许这应该是其中之一，因为我认为它对于我们如何做出决策以及我们决定走哪条路时的框架至关重要。

Lenny: And also we mentioned Cho a couple of times, but on Twitter, he is always asking people, what do you need in the editor?

Lenny：我们也多次提到 Cho，但在 Twitter 上，他总是问人们，你需要编辑器什么？

Here's what's going great.

事情进展顺利。

Claire Butler: Absolutely.

克莱尔·巴特勒：当然。

It's still how we get so much feedback is talking to people directly and Kris will come on when people have bugs and just respond to them.

我们获得如此多反馈的方式仍然是直接与人们交谈，当人们遇到错误时，克里斯就会出现并做出回应。

He's our CTO.

他是我们的首席技术官。

People are just actively on there, listening to people, fixing bugs, responding.

人们只是积极地在那里，倾听人们的意见，修复错误，做出回应。

Lenny: I want to shift to kind of the second step of the go-to-market motion, but before I do that, I have a couple of things I wanted to touch on briefly.

莱尼：我想转向上市动议的第二步，但在此之前，我想简单谈一下几件事。

One is you haven't mentioned Config, this conference that you ran, which is a good example I think, of scaling a lot of the things you're talking about.

一是你没有提到 Config，你举办的这次会议，我认为这是一个很好的例子，可以扩展你正在谈论的很多事情。

It used to be Twitter, social graph, find people on Twitter.

它曾经是 Twitter，社交图谱，在 Twitter 上找人。

Now it's like this epic conference that I think people just love.

现在，这就像一场我认为人们喜欢的史诗般的会议。

I was on Twitter the days of Config, and it's just my whole feed was just like, oh my god, Config is the best thing.

在 Config 出现的时候，我就在 Twitter 上，我的整个动态就是这样，天哪，Config 是最好的东西。

So many talks and so many people.

这么多的谈话和这么多的人。

Claire Butler: Config is such a good example.

Claire Butler：Config 就是一个很好的例子。

I remember, I can happily talk about Config.

我记得，我可以愉快地谈论Config。

The way that we do Config, I think...

我认为我们进行配置的方式......

I'd never run a conference before, maybe that's probably part of it.

我以前从未主持过会议，也许这就是其中的一部分。

And I brought somebody on who had, but she and I were both sitting together and being like, okay, so we're doing a conference.

我找了一个参加过会议的人来，但她和我坐在一起，说，好吧，我们正在开一个会议。

How do we get the content for this conference?

我们如何获取本次会议的内容？

What do we do?

我们该怎么办？

And we didn't know.

我们不知道。

And so we just decided, oh, so much of what we do is listen to our users.

所以我们决定，哦，我们所做的大部分工作就是倾听用户的意见。

Let's put out this call for proposals and see what they want to talk about.

让我们发起征集提案，看看他们想讨论什么。

And so that's how we got and get a lot of our content for the conference.

这就是我们为会议获取大量内容的方式。

And a lot of it comes back to what I was talking about earlier, which is very technical deep content that targets individual contributors for the practitioners of the tool.

其中很多内容都回到了我之前讨论的内容，这是非常技术性的深层内容，针对该工具的从业者的个人贡献者。

Claire Butler: And through that process, we build these relationships with these speakers, our advocates help them shape their talks.

克莱尔·巴特勒：通过这个过程，我们与这些演讲者建立了这些关系，我们的倡导者帮助他们塑造他们的演讲。

And then I think that we do produce really strong technical content through that process and through Config.

然后我认为我们确实通过这个过程和通过 Config 产生了非常强大的技术内容。

And we're also able to, with these people that we work with, help them grow their own profiles and that also helps them stay more connected to us, helps them become thought leaders in their own right.

我们还能够与与我们一起工作的这些人一起，帮助他们发展自己的形象，这也有助于他们与我们保持更紧密的联系，帮助他们凭借自己的能力成为思想领袖。

And so I think we're able to just draw so many different people who are the practitioners and the ICs because we're not just putting thought leadership out there.

所以我认为我们能够吸引这么多不同的人，他们是从业者和 IC，因为我们不仅仅是把思想领导力摆在那里。

We're talking directly to how to use the tool and the things that individual contributors are still dealing with.

我们直接讨论如何使用该工具以及个人贡献者仍在处理的事情。

Lenny: Yeah, it's kind of a lot like this podcast and my newsletter.

莱尼：是的，这很像这个播客和我的时事通讯。

It's like how to actually do stuff, not just a bunch of big ideas.

这就像如何实际做事，而不仅仅是一堆伟大的想法。

Claire Butler (01:00:03) Really.

克莱尔·巴特勒 (01:00:03) 真的。

Yeah, no fluff.

是的，没有绒毛。

Lenny: I remember seeing a tweet about it where someone filmed being inside of and they're like, it's a rock concert, it's not a conference.

莱尼：我记得看到过一条关于它的推文，其中有人拍摄了里面的场景，他们说，这是一场摇滚音乐会，而不是一场会议。

Claire Butler: Oh, that too.

克莱尔·巴特勒：哦，那也是。

We also just have fun.

我们也只是玩得开心。

That's another big part of it as well.

这也是它的另一个重要部分。

I remember literally saying, how can I make this more fun?

我记得我真的说过，我怎样才能让这件事变得更有趣？

So that was a big part of it.

所以这是其中的一个重要部分。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Let's talk about step two of this go-to-market motion that you've developed, which I think if I were to just simply describe it as help people spread it within the organization.

让我们谈谈您制定的进入市场动议的第二步，我想如果我只是简单地将其描述为帮助人们在组织内传播它。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

All right.

好的。

How do you do that?

你是怎么做到的？

Claire Butler: All right, so again, I've got four things here and I'll list them out and then we can go through them.

克莱尔·巴特勒：好吧，我再说一遍，我这里有四件事，我会把它们列出来，然后我们就可以讨论它们。

The first is make it easy to try the tool and to share it without a lot of gates so that you can do this.

首先是让您可以轻松地尝试该工具并共享它，而无需经过很多关卡，以便您可以做到这一点。

The second is those DAs.

第二个是那些DA。

I want to talk about how those DAs work in our sales process.

我想谈谈这些 DA 在我们的销售流程中如何运作。

Claire Butler: Yeah, sorry.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，抱歉。

That's our acronym for them, designer advocates, because they are so core to how we sell and how this works.

这是我们对设计师倡导者的缩写，因为他们对于我们的销售方式和运作方式至关重要。

The third is finding the operational thing that allows you to scale.

第三是找到可以扩展的可操作的东西。

For us that's design systems, the thing that was the biggest blocker to somebody using Figma and turning it into your biggest reason to adopt.

对我们来说，这就是设计系统，它是使用 Figma 的最大障碍，并将其变成您采用 Figma 的最大理由。

And then the last one was still about maintaining and growing that connection with those internal champions over time.

最后一个仍然是随着时间的推移保持和发展与这些内部冠军的联系。

So those are the four things, and again, it looks different, similar concepts with different ideas when you look at that in the early days versus what we do today with it with scale.

这就是这四件事，而且，当你看看早期的情况与我们今天规模化的做法时，它看起来是不同的、相似的概念和不同的想法。

Claire Butler: All right, cool.

克莱尔·巴特勒：好吧，酷。

So the first one's making it, the products easy to try and share.

所以第一个已经成功了，产品很容易尝试和分享。

So we talked about this a little bit, but if you go to figma.com today, it's very easy to sign up for a free account.

我们对此进行了一些讨论，但是如果您今天访问Figma.com，注册一个免费帐户非常容易。

I have a free account myself on my personal side for designing my house, which is a thing I used to before, but you just go and you can try the tool.

我个人有一个免费帐户用于设计我的房子，这是我以前习惯的事情，但你只要去就可以尝试该工具。

And I think that's so important for us to allow someone to use it over time for a long time until they have confidence enough to be able to want to spread it within their organizations.

我认为这对我们来说非常重要，允许人们长期使用它，直到他们有足够的信心能够在他们的组织内传播它。

But then it's also pretty easy to create a free team and share stuff with your organization.

但创建一个免费团队并与您的组织共享内容也非常容易。

In the early days, you could just share a link and that was it, and you could use the tool and everything was free.

在早期，你只需分享一个链接就可以了，你可以使用该工具，一切都是免费的。

Once we implemented pricing, which was about two years after we launched, we had this thing called a starter team.

一旦我们实施定价，大约是在我们推出两年后，我们就有了一个叫做启动团队的东西。

Claire Butler: And this is actually something that was switched.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这实际上是被改变的。

So initially the way that it worked was our starter team was that you could have unlimited files but only collaborate with two or three people, and that was the starter team and you wanted to add more people to collaborate with, and then you hit the paywall.

所以最初我们的入门团队的工作方式是，你可以拥有无​​限的文件，但只能与两到三个人协作，这就是入门团队，你想添加更多的人来协作，然后你就付费了。

We realized that wait a minute, that's hurting us.

我们意识到等一下，这伤害了我们。

And so we switched it and now it's like you can have something like three files, but unlimited collaborators.

所以我们改变了它，现在就像你可以拥有三个文件之类的东西，但协作者不受限制。

And that was huge for us.

这对我们来说意义重大。

And that's a place where you can see it in the metrics very clearly, where it's like, oh, this is really easy for people now to share before they have to start paying.

在那里你可以在指标中非常清楚地看到它，就像，哦，现在人们在开始付费之前很容易分享。

This is huge.

这是巨大的。

Claire Butler: And so then you get people to start using it for free with their teams and the teams get confidence in it before then they all have to start uploading it to their procurement team or whoever it is to start paying for it.

克莱尔·巴特勒：然后你让人们开始与他们的团队免费使用它，并且团队对它充满信心，然后他们都必须开始将其上传到他们的采购团队或任何开始付费的人。

So not introducing payment too fast and giving people that time to build that advocacy and to try it out with their teams, with people before they have to pay, I think is huge there.

因此，不要太快地引入付款方式，并让人们有时间进行宣传，并在他们必须付款之前与他们的团队一起尝试，我认为这很重要。

Lenny: That's such a good and important topic that I want to pull a thread on a little bit.

莱尼：这是一个非常好的和重要的话题，我想稍微讨论一下。

So what you discovered there is you don't want to get in the way of the growth engine of the product.

所以你发现你不想妨碍产品的增长引擎。

If it's going to grow through people spreading it, you don't want to cut it off at three.

如果它要通过人们的传播而成长，你就不想在三点钟就将其剪掉。

That seems like a monumental decision that changed everything.

这似乎是一个改变一切的重大决定。

Any sense of just how you came about to realizing that?

你知道你是如何意识到这一点的吗？

Or was it just obvious, okay, of course we need to change this?

或者这只是显而易见的，好吧，我们当然需要改变这一点？

Claire Butler: Well, I think it was intuitive and it was more about the change management process of how to do that when people...

克莱尔·巴特勒：嗯，我认为这很直观，更多的是关于当人们……时如何做到这一点的变革管理流程。

At this point people were using the tool and using that starter tier and setting people or what that looks like.

此时，人们正在使用该工具并使用该入门层并设置人员或类似的东西。

And for a long time you could also get around that and just collaborate with people in drafts and just share a link too.

在很长一段时间里，您也可以绕过这个问题，只与草稿中的人协作，并共享链接。

And we wanted to shut that down.

我们想关闭它。

So it was a bigger decision on just change management, but I think we intuitively knew it and it was much more about to the change management of how to make that happen.

因此，这是关于变革管理的一个更大的决定，但我认为我们直观地知道这一点，而且更多的是关于如何实现这一目标的变革管理。

Lenny: Is there anything else you learned about what should be in free and paywall versus what should be in freemium?

Lenny：关于免费和付费专区与免费增值中的内容，您还了解到了什么吗？

Just broad thoughts.

只是广泛的想法。

Claire Butler: Well, I think the other interesting thing is too, and I think I said this, but so much of ours is, so we have a couple tiers.

克莱尔·巴特勒：嗯，我认为另一个有趣的事情也是如此，我想我说过这一点，但我们的很多都是这样，所以我们有几个层次。

We have a free tier and then we have a pro tier, and then we have our org tier.

我们有免费层，然后有专业层，然后我们有组织层。

And the free tier, free tier includes this free starter team.

免费套餐，免费套餐包括这个免费的首发团队。

And so you can just do that, go to figma.com, and go do that.

所以你可以这样做，访问figma.com，然后去做。

Pro is all enter credit card, and then org is you talk to sales.

Pro 是全部输入信用卡，然后 org 是您与销售人员交谈。

Org and enterprise, you talk to sales.

组织和企业，您与销售人员交谈。

And so I think the other key thing here is we get a lot of upsells to org from pro.

所以我认为另一个关键的事情是我们从专业人士那里得到了很多向组织的追加销售。

And so it's also a thought of what you put in org versus pro.

因此，这也是你在 org 和 pro 中投入什么的一个想法。

So that's the other decision because pro is also relatively inexpensive, so that grows a lot too really quickly and it's still very important to us, but still most of our marketing qualified leads that are sales leads likely come from pro or from free.

这是另一个决定，因为专业版也相对便宜，所以它的增长速度太快了，这对我们来说仍然非常重要，但我们的大多数营销合格线索（即销售线索）可能来自专业版或免费版。

Claire Butler: And so it's the decisions that we think about are like, okay, what do you want to sell on?

克莱尔·巴特勒：所以我们考虑的决定是，好吧，你想卖什么？

And to go from free to pro, it has to be pretty natural because you don't have any people involved.

从免费到专业的过程必须非常自然，因为没有任何人参与。

And so it's like they have to just do that on their own.

所以他们必须自己做这件事。

And then when you go from pro to org or enterprise, it's more about the organization and the scale.

然后，当您从专业人士转向组织或企业时，更多的是关于组织和规模。

And that's where that design systems conversation comes in that we could talk about.

这就是我们可以讨论的设计系统对话的来源。

But that was the thing that we really indexed on for org and enterprise of why you would want to upgrade from pro to org.

但这是我们真正为组织和企业建立索引的事情，说明为什么您希望从专业版升级到组织。

So it is this multi-step process, but it's also nice because you can increase your investment in the product as you're building your own confidence in the tool.

这是一个多步骤的过程，但它也很好，因为您可以在建立对工具的信心的同时增加对产品的投资。

Lenny: The other really important nuance in the way that you structured pricing, it's unlimited viewers, but it's just editors that you charge for.

莱尼：在定价方式上另一个非常重要的细微差别是，观众不受限制，但只向编辑收费。

Claire Butler: Yes.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的。

So true.

如此真实。

So many people, especially if you're a designer and you're working with our product manager, you can comment and so much of this is to yes, you can spread it and you can use Figma for free for a really long time because you can just comment on the tool.

很多人，特别是如果你是一名设计师并且你正在与我们的产品经理一起工作，你可以发表评论，其中很多都是肯定的，你可以传播它，你可以免费使用 Figma 很长一段时间，因为你可以对这个工具发表评论。

And it also gets us through many more places with the organization and helps us be more useful to more people because yeah, viewers are free.

它还让我们与组织一起经历更多的地方，并帮助我们对更多的人更有用，因为是的，观众是免费的。

Lenny: This one topic could be a whole podcast.

莱尼：这个主题可以是一整个播客。

And I have so many questions.

我有很多问题。

Let me ask maybe one more and then I'll move on.

让我再问一个，然后我会继续。

How often do you revisit the packaging and pricing at this point?

此时您多久重新审视一次包装和定价？

And do you have any advice there?

您有什么建议吗？

Claire Butler (01:06:32) Yeah, I mean it's interesting because the product's still growing.

Claire Butler (01:06:32) 是的，我的意思是这很有趣，因为该产品仍在增长。

We just launched variables and dev mode back in at Config this year, and that influenced pricing and packaging and still is, right?

我们今年刚刚在 Config 中推出了变量和开发模式，这影响了定价和包装，现在仍然如此，对吗？

And so FigJam too.

FigJam 也是如此。

And so I would say the core foundations aren't something we revisit a lot, but we're continually adding new features and we have to think about what tiers should they go in, what does that look like?

所以我想说，核心基础并不是我们经常重新审视的东西，但我们不断添加新功能，我们必须考虑它们应该进入哪些层，那是什么样子的？

So those things influence that all the time.

所以这些事情一直在影响着这一点。

Lenny: By the way, I recently upgraded to the non-free pack because I hit that limit of three with the designer that I work with.

Lenny：顺便说一句，我最近升级到了非免费包，因为我和我合作的设计师达到了三个限制。

Claire Butler: Yeah, it's also just kind of annoying because you have to keep moving things in and out drafts.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，这也有点烦人，因为你必须不断地将东西移入和移出草稿。

Claire Butler: It's like, oh, this is worth my $12 a month or whatever, just to not have to bother with it.

Claire Butler：就好像，哦，这值我每个月 12 美元之类的，只是为了不用费心。

Lenny (01:07:11) Yeah.

莱尼 (01:07:11) 是的。

Once you realize, okay, yeah, it's not that much in the scheme of things, I'm just going to, but it's interesting how it's not that much, but I still like, nah, I don't really want to pay that if I don't have to.

一旦你意识到，好吧，是的，在事情的计划中并没有那么多，我只是要去，但有趣的是它并没有那么多，但我仍然喜欢，不，如果不需要的话，我真的不想付钱。

Claire Butler: Oh, for sure.

克莱尔·巴特勒：哦，当然。

We all do that.

我们都这样做。

Right?

正确的？

Especially because so much of pro, so many people have individual pro accounts, right?

特别是因为如此多的专业人士，很多人都有个人专业账户，对吧？

Because not necessarily a business or maybe it's a small business or you're an individual and it's very different from an organization where someone else is paying for it.

因为不一定是企业，或者可能是小企业，或者您是个人，它与其他人付费的组织非常不同。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

So funny.

太有趣了。

Okay, step two is around designer advocates.

好的，第二步是围绕设计师倡导者。

Talk about that.

谈谈那个。

Claire Butler: Yeah, so I just think these DAs, so sorry, I keep calling them DAs because that's what we call them internally.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，所以我只是认为这些 DA，很抱歉，我一直称他们为 DA，因为我们内部就是这么称呼他们的。

Lenny (01:07:44) It's cool.

莱尼 (01:07:44) 很酷。

Now we know.

现在我们知道了。

Claire Butler: Advocates are just so special and such a big part of Figma.

Claire Butler：倡导者非常特别，也是 Figma 的重要组成部分。

And like I said, it took us so long to start charging or bring in a sales team.

正如我所说，我们花了很长时间才开始收费或引入销售团队。

And when we first hired our first salesperson and our first sales rep was the same day that our next designer advocate started, who...

当我们第一次雇用我们的第一位销售人员和我们的第一位销售代表时，我们的下一位设计师倡导者开始了同一天，谁......

Eventually the first designer advocate left and did something else.

最终第一位设计师倡导者离开并做了其他事情。

And we brought in another designer advocate and he started on the first day that the sales team started.

我们引进了另一位设计师倡导者，他在销售团队成立的第一天就开始了工作。

And at this point, more people were using Figma.

而此时，更多的人开始使用Figma。

We'd had that pro tier going for a while, and Tom, who is still here today and is leading that team, Tom Lowry, he was a passionate Figma user, but he was a passionate Figma user who brought Figma to his organization.

我们的专业级别已经有一段时间了，Tom 今天仍然在这里并领导着这个团队，Tom Lowry，他是一位热情的 Figma 用户，但他是将 Figma 带到他的组织中的一位热情的 Figma 用户。

But the first one, we were so early, he didn't have an organization to bring it to, he just loved the product.

但第一个，我们太早了，他没有组织来提供它，他只是喜欢这个产品。

But Tom, he brought...

但是汤姆，他带来了……

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:09:04]

第 3 部分（共 4 部分）结束 [01:09:04]

Claire Butler: He really didn't have an organization to bring it to.

克莱尔·巴特勒（Claire Butler）：他确实没有一个组织可以将其带入。

He just loved the product.

他只是喜欢这个产品。

But Tom, he was the internal champion at his company, who got his company to adopt Figma.

但是 Tom，他是他公司的内部拥护者，他让他的公司采用 Figma。

So, when he joined Figma, that was really the mindset that he brought to this, was also like, "How do you use this as a team?"

所以，当他加入 Figma 时，这确实是他带来的心态，就像“你如何将这个作为一个团队来使用？”

Claire Butler: And why I think this is so special, and was so foundational that they started together, is that they would go talk to users together, and they would bring him into the sales process.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我认为这如此特别，而且如此基础，以至于他们一起开始，是因为他们会一起与用户交谈，并将他带入销售流程。

But he was never a salesperson.

但他从来都不是推销员。

Never had a quota, doesn't live on the sales team.

从来没有配额，也不住在销售团队中。

Technical expert who has such a deep passion, and a deep, deep, deep, deep understanding of the tool, that he would come in and just help explain the product to other designers.

技术专家拥有如此深厚的热情，并且对工具有着深刻、深刻、深刻、深刻的理解，他会进来帮助向其他设计师解释产品。

Claire Butler: And it goes back to that same theme that I talked about earlier with marketing, where I realized that I would never have the credibility with designers that a designer has.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这又回到了我之前谈到的营销主题，我意识到我永远不会像设计师那样获得设计师的信任。

Same is true with sales.

销售也是如此。

They're never going to know the product as well as a designer will.

他们永远不会像设计师那样了解产品。

Claire Butler: So, Tom being there, and Tom being able to be like, "Oh, I understand exactly what you're talking about, and what your problems are.

克莱尔·巴特勒：所以，汤姆在那里，汤姆能够说，“哦，我完全明白你在说什么，以及你的问题是什么。

Here's how this works." Or "Here's where you're blocked," or "Here's an idea or best practice how to use this."

这就是它的工作原理。”或者“这就是你被阻止的地方”，或者“这是如何使用它的想法或最佳实践。”

Claire Butler: That just became so powerful and so useful for them and for the sales team, that they ended up calling it the Tom Factor, .

克莱尔·巴特勒：这对他们和销售团队来说变得如此强大和有用，以至于他们最终将其称为“汤姆因素”。

So, it wasn't necessarily a structured process at the beginning.

因此，一开始它不一定是一个结构化的过程。

They'd just like, "Hey Tom, can you come help talk to this company with us, or help show them how this works?"

他们只是想，“嘿汤姆，你能来帮助我们与这家公司交谈，或者帮助他们向他们展示这是如何运作的吗？”

Claire Butler: But then they called him the Tom Factor because he was so powerful, and their deals were so much more likely to close if he joined the calls.

克莱尔·巴特勒：但后来他们称他为“汤姆因素”，因为他太强大了，如果他加入的话，他们的交易更有可能完成。

But it wasn't his full-time job either.

但这也不是他的全职工作。

He also is connected to the products.

他也与产品有联系。

Because he's this special person who was a designer, was a user of the product, and then talks to hundreds of customers.

因为他是一个特殊的人，他是设计师，是产品的用户，然后与数百名客户交谈。

So, he has the best way of synthesizing product feedback, and then bringing it back to the product team because he has all of that context.

因此，他拥有综合产品反馈的最佳方法，然后将其带回产品团队，因为他拥有所有这些背景信息。

So, I think that that role is just so special, and it's something that we've actually chosen to scale because it's just so valuable.

所以，我认为这个角色非常特别，我们实际上选择扩大这个角色，因为它非常有价值。

In the same way it's valuable for marketing, it's valuable for sales.

就像它对营销有价值一样，它对销售也有价值。

Lenny: I think we're going to spur a lot of companies building these teams with this conversation.

莱尼：我认为我们将通过这次对话刺激许多公司建立这些团队。

Claire Butler: I can't speak highly enough about it.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我对此怎么评价都不为过。

Marketing, we think about it, as we're scaling this role, we're marketing product and sales.

营销，我们考虑一下，当我们扩大这个角色时，我们正在营销产品和销售。

That's where these people come in.

这就是这些人进来的地方。

And I think when you have a technical IC audience, I don't see how else you could build any credibility or get anywhere with people if you don't have someone who deeply understands it, integrated in marketing and in sales.

我认为，当你拥有 IC 技术受众时，如果没有深入了解 IC 技术并融入营销和销售的人，我看不出你还能如何建立任何信誉或在人们中取得任何进展。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So, we're talking about how to help your product spread within an organization.

因此，我们正在讨论如何帮助您的产品在组织内传播。

Talked about developer advocates.

谈论开发者倡导者。

You talked about making it easier to spread.

你谈到让它更容易传播。

What else?

还有什么？

Claire Butler: Let's talk about design systems.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我们来谈谈设计系统。

Let's say you're a designer and you're designing an app, and you need a button.

假设您是一名设计师，正在设计一个应用程序，并且需要一个按钮。

Rather than going in and making a new button every single time, you need a library of the button ...

您不需要每次都创建一个新按钮，而是需要一个按钮库......

with the color, the spacing, the padding, all that stuff already predefined.

颜色、间距、填充，所有这些东西都已经预定义了。

Claire Butler: Maybe it's tied to code, maybe it's not.

Claire Butler：也许它与代码相关，也许不是。

But you just want to pull that in.

但你只是想把它拉进去。

And then, maybe there's someone on the design system, and maybe there's a brand designer or someone who's like, "Oh, we changed this from this font to that font." That you know that, and it just updates everywhere.

然后，也许设计系统上有人，也许有品牌设计师，或者有人说，“哦，我们把这个字体从这个字体改成了那个字体。”你知道这一点，而且它随处更新。

Or a padding change, and it updates everywhere.

或者填充更改，它会随处更新。

Claire Butler: And that's the most simplistic version, is a button.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这是最简单的版本，是一个按钮。

But this stuff gets way more complex.

但这东西变得更加复杂。

This turns into, "Here is our welcome screen.

这变成了，“这是我们的欢迎屏幕。

Here is our header bar." All of the different components that then become whole pages.

这是我们的标题栏。”所有不同的组件都会成为整个页面。

And it's a huge efficiency.

这是一个巨大的效率。

Claire Butler: If you have a very robust design system, you're just pulling in all of those components, instead of having to design those from scratch every single time.

Claire Butler：如果您有一个非常强大的设计系统，您只需引入所有这些组件，而不必每次都从头开始设计。

And it's consistent.

而且它是一致的。

If you have hundreds of designers in an organization, they're all making buttons, they're going to be slightly different.

如果一个组织中有数百名设计师，他们都在制作按钮，那么他们的设计会略有不同。

And then engineering's like, "Wait.

然后工程人员会说：“等等。

What patenting do I use?" It's very inefficient.

我使用什么专利？”这是非常低效的。

So, a lot of organizations use these design systems, and they become very advanced over time.

因此，许多组织都使用这些设计系统，并且随着时间的推移它们变得非常先进。

But Figma did not have design systems in the early days.

但 Figma 早期并没有设计系统。

Or if we did, they ended up having them at the file level.

或者，如果我们这样做了，他们最终会在文件级别拥有它们。

But you couldn't share them with other people.

但你不能与其他人分享它们。

Claire Butler: So, that was a huge blocker for us for a really long time, was these big companies were like, "Oh, yeah.

克莱尔·巴特勒：所以，在很长一段时间里，这对我们来说是一个巨大的障碍，这些大公司就像，“哦，是的。

This is cool, but I need a design system.

这很酷，但我需要一个设计系统。

How else am I supposed to work with engineering?” Because this is so big in engineering, too.

不然我还能怎么从事工程工作呢？”因为这在工程领域也非常重要。

Because when you're able to identify all of these different buttons and these components in advance, you could tie them to code.

因为当您能够提前识别所有这些不同的按钮和这些组件时，您可以将它们与代码联系起来。

And then it's easier for them because they don't have to inspect it every time.

然后这对他们来说就更容易了，因为他们不必每次都检查。

So, it's way better for everybody.

所以，这对每个人来说都更好。

It was our biggest blocker.

这是我们最大的障碍。

But then we decided, "No, we're going to focus on this." And in the early days, that was just meetups still.

但后来我们决定，“不，我们要专注于此。”在早期，这仍然只是聚会。

And it was like, "We need to do design systems meetups." And we were all like, "What are design systems?" Or that I'm just like, "What is design systems?"

就像，“我们需要举办设计系统聚会。”我们都想，“什么是设计系统？”或者我只是想，“什么是设计系统？”

Claire Butler: And then I went and read a pattern way of thinking and Brad Frost's atomic structures design systems, and started learning about it.

克莱尔·巴特勒：然后我去阅读了一种模式思维方式和布拉德·弗罗斯特的原子结构设计系统，并开始学习它。

But anyway, in the early days, we just literally brought …

但无论如何，在早期，我们只是字面上带来了……

There's a community of design systems people, and we brought all of them together.

有一个设计系统人员社区，我们将他们所有人聚集在一起。

Met with our product team, met with Dylan, started just having these really informal meetups around design systems to learn from these people and start just learning, hearing from them.

与我们的产品团队会面，与迪伦会面，开始围绕设计系统进行这些真正非正式的聚会，向这些人学习，并开始学习，听取他们的意见。

And then they started building out more features from it.

然后他们开始从中构建更多功能。

And then we just started really leaning into the technical aspects of how companies use and scale design systems.

然后我们才开始真正关注公司如何使用和扩展设计系统的技术方面。

Because, while design systems are so important, it's also very hard to get an organization to do it.

因为，虽然设计系统如此重要，但让一个组织去做这件事也非常困难。

Because it's like an efficiency thing that they also have to invest in, that is immediately connected to a launch that day.

因为这就像他们还必须投资的效率问题，这与当天的发布立即相关。

Claire Butler: Every company is at a different phase of maturity of where their design system is.

Claire Butler：每家公司的设计系统都处于不同的成熟阶段。

But we really leaned into the content, into the features, into eventually showing how people do it in Figma.

但我们确实专注于内容、功能，最终展示人们如何在 Figma 中做到这一点。

Both at the beginning level, but then at the very advanced level, to really lean into that.

两者都处于初级水平，但随后处于非常高级的水平，真正倾向于这一点。

And then, that also went into marketing.

然后，这也进入了营销领域。

That was ...

那是...

We have DesignSystems.com, it's a Figma property.

我们有 DesignSystems.com，它是 Figma 的财产。

We had a whole conference around it in the fall called Schema, where we just bring in these advanced design systems practitioners and they just show you how're they're working.

我们在秋天围绕它举行了一次名为 Schema 的完整会议，我们只是引入了这些先进的设计系统从业者，他们只是向您展示他们是如何工作的。

And that's so important, too, because design systems are one of the main reasons you upgrade from pro to org or enterprise, is you're at this phase where you're getting more organized.

这也非常重要，因为设计系统是您从专业人士升级到组织或企业的主要原因之一，是您正处于变得更有组织性的阶段。

You're more advanced, you're a bigger company, so that's one of our big gating features for upgrade, so that became just the key thing we leaned in on.

你更先进，你是一家更大的公司，所以这是我们升级的重要门控功能之一，因此这成为我们所依赖的关键因素。

Claire Butler: And that's bottoms up specific, because the people making the design systems are not like the VP, still.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这是自下而上的具体情况，因为设计系统的人仍然不像副总裁。

The next phase of bottoms up are the ICs, and then the design systems people.

自下而上的下一阶段是 IC，然后是设计系统人员。

And now those internal champions are largely the design systems people, too.

现在，这些内部冠军也主要是设计系统人员。

They're either the biggest blockers or the biggest champions, depending on if you can win them over.

他们要么是最大的阻碍者，要么是最大的冠军，这取决于你是否能赢得他们的支持。

Lenny: I love just that lesson of the thing that is blocking you from being adopted, see if you can turn that into an advantage.

莱尼：我很喜欢那个阻碍你被收养的事情的教训，看看你是否能把它变成一个优势。

Lenny: Feels like, looking at Figma, it's like, wow, with so many advantages for a product to spread ...

Lenny：感觉就像，看着Figma，哇，一个产品有如此多的优势可以传播......

It's single player, you can use it on your own.

它是单人游戏，您可以自己使用。

It's got multiplayer, you could invite people.

它有多人游戏，你可以邀请别人。

It gets better as more people are using it.

随着越来越多的人使用它，它会变得更好。

Lenny: Versus, I don't know, a company like Slack, where it's useless on your own.

Lenny：我不知道，像 Slack 这样的公司，你自己做是没有用的。

Is there anything there about just, these lessons you're sharing are most helpful for a product that is useful on its own?

您分享的这些经验教训是否对本身有用的产品最有帮助？

Or could it be useful for all kinds of products?

或者它对所有类型的产品都有用吗？

Anything there?

那里有什么吗？

Claire Butler: That's what I was talking about with the IC.

克莱尔·巴特勒：这就是我与 IC 谈论的内容。

An IC has to get a lot of value out of this on their own.

集成电路必须自己从中获得很多价值。

And I think it has to be technical.

我认为这必须是技术性的。

Or, that's a hypothesis that I have.

或者，这是我的一个假设。

It's certainly easier if it's a technical product.

如果它是技术产品，那肯定会更容易。

They get a lot farther, because people want to talk much more about the product.

他们走得更远，因为人们想更多地谈论产品。

Claire Butler: They care so much about the craft, and they want to spend a lot of time learning and understanding it.

克莱尔·巴特勒：他们非常关心这门手艺，他们想花很多时间学习和理解它。

And I think that's true with designers, that's true with engineers.

我认为对于设计师来说是这样，对于工程师来说也是如此。

That's not true with every audience.

并非所有观众都是如此。

Not every audience is ...

并不是每个观众都...

deeply cares about wanting to learn the craft in the best way possible for a specific thing.

非常关心想要以最好的方式学习针对特定事物的手艺。

So, I think that one of the ...

所以，我认为其中之一...

I don't know about requirements, but things that makes this a lot more likely to be successful, is that your IC, there's a tool, and they can use it on their own.

我不知道要求是什么，但让这件事更有可能成功的是你的 IC，有一个工具，他们可以自己使用它。

And it's technical.

而且它是技术性的。

I think that helps a ton.

我认为这有很大帮助。

Lenny: Coming back to the strategy of helping Figma spread within an organization, I think you mentioned there's one more item around champions?

Lenny：回到帮助 Figma 在组织内传播的策略，我想你提到过还有一个关于冠军的项目？

Claire Butler: Oh, yeah.

克莱尔·巴特勒：哦，是的。

Just the last thing there is, you have to keep that relationship going with those champions forever.

最后一件事是，你必须永远保持与这些冠军的关系。

Because they don't go away.

因为他们不会消失。

And sometimes they get mad at you, too.

有时他们也会生你的气。

I remember, there's one.

我记得有一个

I think it was at one of our companies, one of our bigger companies.

我认为这是在我们的一家公司，我们更大的公司之一。

And he was upset about something, and he tweeted it.

他对某件事感到不安，然后发了推文。

Claire Butler: And then we immediately had to go talk to him and understand what he wanted, and what was wrong.

克莱尔·巴特勒：然后我们必须立即与他交谈并了解他想要什么以及出了什么问题。

They don't go away.

他们不会消失。

But then also, I think a lot about how, through the process of maintaining a relationship with those people, we're actually able to help them, and what they get out of it beyond just the tool.

但我也思考了很多，通过与这些人保持关系的过程，我们实际上能够帮助他们，以及他们从中得到的不仅仅是工具。

Especially over time, especially as we have a larger platform, I think a lot about how can we help them grow.

特别是随着时间的推移，特别是当我们拥有更大的平台时，我思考了很多关于我们如何帮助他们成长的问题。

Whether that's growing their careers.

无论这是否会发展他们的职业生涯。

Like they, because they brought on Figma, they get a promotion, or whatever that looks like.

就像他们一样，因为他们引入了 Figma，他们就得到了晋升，或者其他类似的东西。

Claire Butler: But we have more direct control over things like, "Oh, you're going to speak at one of our events.

克莱尔·巴特勒：但我们可以更直接地控制诸如“哦，你要在我们的一场活动上发言。

We're going to amplify you on social.

我们将在社交方面增强您的影响力。

We're going to promote you and make you a thought leader.” And it works really well for everyone.

我们将提升你，让你成为思想领袖。”它对每个人来说都非常有效。

Because these people also have the deep technical expertise to show other people, "Here's how I've flip my design systems.

因为这些人还拥有深厚的技术专业知识，可以向其他人展示，“这就是我如何翻转我的设计系统。

Here's how I do this." And people who want to learn from them.

我就是这样做的。”以及想向他们学习的人。

And we have the platform to be able to amplify them.

我们拥有能够放大它们的平台。

So, I think a lot about, "Yeah, how can we help these people grow in their own careers, and get something out of this, too, beyond just the level of the tool?"

所以，我想了很多，“是的，我们如何才能帮助这些人在自己的职业生涯中成长，并从中获得超越工具水平的东西？”

Lenny: And then that builds back into building credibility for Figma, because now there's all these additional designers talking about Figma.

Lenny：然后这又会重新建立 Figma 的可信度，因为现在所有这些额外的设计师都在谈论 Figma。

Claire Butler: Totally.

克莱尔·巴特勒：完全可以。

It's all a circle.

都是一个圆圈。

It's all .

就这样了。

Lenny: Flywheels within flywheels.

莱尼：飞轮中的飞轮。

What a business you've built over there.

你在那里建立了多么好的企业啊。

Maybe just the last question along these lines ...

也许只是最后一个问题......

What changes as you scale?

随着规模的扩大，会发生什么变化？

A lot of these are things you did early on.

其中很多都是您早期所做的事情。

What changes as you grow as a company, in this bucket of helping the product spread?

随着公司的成长，在帮助产品传播的过程中会发生什么变化？

Claire Butler: Yeah.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的。

I think the key thing is that you have to keep doing it.

我认为关键是你必须继续这样做。

One of the things that I feel like, at my role now at Figma, that I think a lot about, is how I can keep advocating for this stuff when we are starting to implement more top down motion, and having to really prove ROI.

我现在在 Figma 的角色中，我经常思考的一件事是，当我们开始实施更多自上而下的行动并必须真正证明投资回报率时，我如何能够继续倡导这些东西。

Or thinking about, "How do you scale the sales team?" And all those things.

或者思考“你如何扩大销售团队？”还有所有这些事情。

Claire Butler: So, a lot of what I'm doing, too, is thinking like, "Okay.

克莱尔·巴特勒：所以，我所做的很多事情也是这样想的，“好吧。

How do we keep this going and keep this model successful as the company is still growing?" Because it's not necessarily as intuitive as you are starting to add in more of some of these more traditional methods and motions.

在公司仍在成长的情况下，我们如何保持这一模式并保持这种模式的成功？”因为它不一定像您开始添加更多这些更传统的方法和动作那样直观。

So, that's something that I think about quite a bit.

所以，这是我思考很多的事情。

Things like that conference that I talked about, Schema, that's a big one.

像我谈到的那个会议，Schema，那是一件大事。

Config, that's a big one.

配置啊，好大啊。

Scaling our DA team, and really having them grow with the company across regions and across products, is really big.

扩展我们的 DA 团队，并真正让他们跨地区、跨产品与公司一起成长，这确实是一件大事。

So, it's how do you keep protecting those things.

所以，这就是你如何继续保护这些东西。

Because it's not immediately obvious when you bring in just a ton of new people.

因为当你引入大量新人时，这并不是立即显而易见的。

Lenny: Right.

莱尼：对。

It's easy to break the thing that was working.

很容易破坏正在工作的东西。

Claire Butler: Totally.

克莱尔·巴特勒：完全可以。

And you have to do new things, too.

你也必须做新的事情。

You have to layer on new things.

你必须叠加新事物。

But how do you not just walk away from this thing that got you to where you are, as well?

但你怎样才能不离开这个让你走到现在的位置的东西呢？

Lenny: Is this a fit for everyone, this sort of approach?

莱尼：这种方法适合所有人吗？

Let's say every B2B SaaS company, what are maybe prerequisites for who should apply this sort of approach and this motion?

假设每个 B2B SaaS 公司，谁应该应用这种方法和这项动议的先决条件是什么？

Claire Butler: I thought about this a lot myself, actually.

克莱尔·巴特勒：实际上，我自己也思考了很多这个问题。

Because Figma also has new products.

因为Figma也有新产品了。

So, I think to myself, "Oh, can I replicate this?" Like FigJam.

所以，我对自己说：“哦，我可以复制这个吗？”就像无花果果酱一样。

FigJam's one of those examples.

FigJam 就是其中之一。

And Dev Mode, all of a sudden we're working with developers.

在开发模式下，我们突然开始与开发人员合作。

So, I've thought about this a lot.

所以，我想了很多。

And I don't know if there's like, "Oh, you have to have this, or you have to have that." But I think there's certainly things that make it easier.

我不知道是否有人会说，“哦，你必须拥有这个，或者你必须拥有那个。”但我认为肯定有一些事情可以让它变得更容易。

And they're both true on the market side, of the type of the audience, and also on the team side.

无论是在市场方面、观众类型方面还是团队方面，它们都是如此。

Claire Butler: Within the market, I already mentioned it.

克莱尔·巴特勒：在市场上，我已经提到过。

But I think it really helps if people are technical.

但我认为，如果人们具备技术能力，这确实会有帮助。

And you have this technical audience of people who really care about the craft, and they get a lot of value out of the tool by themselves.

而且你有一群真正关心技术的技术受众，他们自己从工具中获得了很多价值。

Because that just allows them to really learn something and really build confidence in something, before they have to spread it or start collaborating.

因为这只会让他们在传播或开始合作之前真正学到一些东西并真正建立对某些东西的信心。

And it gives you something to talk about with them that's not collaboration.

它让你可以与他们谈论一些不属于合作的话题。

Because, like I said, no one wants to talk about collaboration.

因为，就像我说的，没有人愿意谈论合作。

Nobody wants to talk about it.

没有人愿意谈论它。

So, you have other things you can talk about.

所以，你们还有其他事情可以谈。

Even though collaboration's so important, no one wants to talk about it.

尽管合作如此重要，但没有人愿意谈论它。

Claire Butler: So, being technical is important.

克莱尔·巴特勒：所以，技术性很重要。

And caring about your tools, that's another one that I think a lot about.

关心你的工具，这是我经常思考的另一件事。

As a marketer, I don't know how much I care about my tools.

作为一名营销人员，我不知道我有多关心我的工具。

Some of them I do, but a lot of them I don't.

其中一些我做，但很多我不做。

If you're like, "Oh, Claire, you have to move from Dropbox Paper to Google Docs," I'd be like, "Fine." Maybe that's their personality.

如果你说，“哦，克莱尔，你必须从 Dropbox Paper 迁移到 Google Docs”，我会说，“好吧。”也许这就是他们的个性。

But designers, specifically, and I think engineers are the same way, just as examples, have deep passions for their tools.

但设计师，特别是设计师，我认为工程师也是如此，就像例子一样，对他们的工具有着深厚的热情。

Probably because they're in it eight hours a day, so they're using them all the time.

可能是因为他们每天要花八个小时，所以他们一直在使用它们。

So, it certainly helps if you ...

因此，如果您...，这肯定会有所帮助。

These people already care, care deeply, about what their tools are.

这些人已经非常关心他们的工具是什么。

Claire Butler: Another thing that helps is that you have a community that exists within the target audience already.

克莱尔·巴特勒：另一件有帮助的事情是你已经在目标受众中拥有了一个社区。

We had that with designers.

我们和设计师就有过这样的经历。

Yes, we grew it a lot, and have grown with it a lot.

是的，我们成长了很多，也随之成长了很多。

But like I said, that Twitter community, that existed without us.

但就像我说的，Twitter 社区在没有我们的情况下就存在了。

That was there before we were there.

在我们到达那里之前就已经在那里了。

So, it made it a lot easier for us to get started, because we didn't have to make something to bring people to us.

所以，这让我们更容易开始，因为我们不需要做一些东西来吸引人们来找我们。

We had a distribution channel already in place that we could work through.

我们已经有一个可以利用的分销渠道。

That helped a ton.

这很有帮助。

And then I think the last one was that that core IC audience has a lot of connection points within the organization.

我认为最后一个是核心 IC 受众在组织内有很多连接点。

Designers are so collaborative.

设计师们非常协作。

Like you were saying, as a PM, you were working with designers.

就像您所说，作为产品经理，您正在与设计师合作。

They work with everybody.

他们与每个人一起工作。

If you're building something, you need comments, you need feedback.

如果你正在构建一些东西，你需要评论，你需要反馈。

So, it was really natural for them to be a super-spreader, because their role was such that they were collaborating with a lot of people.

因此，他们成为超级传播者是很自然的，因为他们的角色是与很多人合作。

Lenny: And again, when people are hearing this, they're like, "Of course Figma did so well.

Lenny：再说一遍，当人们听到这个消息时，他们会说，“Figma 当然做得这么好。

They had all these advantages." But I think people forget how many disadvantages that also .

他们拥有所有这些优势。”但我想人们也忘记了还有多少缺点。

Like convincing a designer to switch to a new tool ...

就像说服设计师改用新工具一样......

very hard.

非常难。

Claire Butler: One of my favorite stories there is that when we launched Designer News, which was a popular forum back in the day, the first response was, "If this is the future of design, I'm changing careers." Because designers do not want to be collaborative.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我最喜欢的故事之一是，当我们推出“设计师新闻”（当时是一个很受欢迎的论坛）时，第一个反应是，“如果这就是设计的未来，我就要改变职业。”因为设计师不想协作。

There was this process where people were like, "Oh, no. I want to do my work on my own, and then present when I'm ready." It was a massive shift in getting them to think in a different way to do this.

在这个过程中，人们会说，“哦，不。我想自己做我的工作，然后在我准备好时出现。”这是一个巨大的转变，让他们以不同的方式思考来做到这一点。

So even to me, it was intuitive.

所以即使对我来说，这也是直观的。

But of course, you'd be collaborative.

但当然，你们会合作。

But designers did not want to be, all of them, right away.

但设计师们并不想立即成为所有人。

Lenny: I think it's only a clearly successful product after the fact, only after the fact.

莱尼：我认为这只是一个在事后才明显成功的产品。

This reminds me of another story shared with me about Uber, which was also very classically not collaborative and very siloed.

这让我想起了另一个与我分享的关于 Uber 的故事，这个故事也非常传统，不合作，而且非常孤立。

And there was a big push to adopt Figma to help encourage more sharing, because that was against the culture.

人们大力推动采用 Figma 来帮助鼓励更多分享，因为这违背了文化。

Claire Butler: Yes, yes.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，是的。

That was a key problem.

这是一个关键问题。

And it's still a key problem with a lot of design organizations, is that they're siloed.

对于许多设计组织来说，这仍然是一个关键问题，那就是它们是孤立的。

And it's an organizational shift to get people to be collaborative.

这是一种让人们协作的组织转变。

Lenny: What sort of team do you need to have in place to approach growth and go-to-market in this way?

Lenny：您需要什么样的团队才能以这种方式实现增长和进入市场？

What did you find was really important?

你发现什么是真正重要的？

Claire Butler: The most important thing there is that you have an executive and a leader who believes in this.

克莱尔·巴特勒：最重要的是你有一位相信这一点的高管和领导者。

I did not start this; Dylan started this.

这不是我开始的；迪伦开始了这个。

He was the core person who believed in this, and who drove a lot of this.

他是相信这一点并推动这一点的核心人物。

And he continues to.

他继续这样做。

And he's built this up to be a culture of our team.

他将其打造为我们团队的文化。

Claire Butler: And since he believes in it, he's able to help bring more people on board and make everyone believe in it.

克莱尔·巴特勒：既然他相信这一点，他就能够帮助更多的人加入并让每个人都相信这一点。

And then, I think the other thing is, through that, is that thing that we were talking about earlier with metrics.

然后，我认为另一件事是我们之前讨论的指标。

I think so much of this is people being like, " That doesn't scale.

我认为这很大程度上是因为人们会说，“这无法规模化。

How do you measure this?” And yes, we are .

你如何衡量这个？是的，我们是。

We are working on all those things.

我们正在致力于所有这些事情。

But it's not immediately clear.

但目前还不清楚。

The metrics don't immediately show you if something's working or not.

这些指标不会立即显示某些内容是否有效。

It goes back to signal over metrics.

它可以追溯到指标上的信号。

And I think that that's so important.

我认为这非常重要。

(01:23:43) And having leaders who believe in that, too, who are able to trust their own intuitions and their own guts, is so important.

(01:23:43) 拥有同样相信这一点、能够相信自己的直觉和勇气的领导者非常重要。

And it's so interesting, too, because I was just thinking when I was ...

这也很有趣，因为我当时就在想……

Just now, that I was talking about earlier about how trusting yourself and trusting intuition is the hardest part, the most stressful part in the early days.

刚才我刚才谈到，相信自己、相信直觉是早期最难的部分，也是压力最大的部分。

But even here, it's the thing you need the most to be successful.

但即使在这里，这也是您取得成功最需要的东西。

So, I don't know how that connects back, but it just feels like that's just so important in this type of model.

所以，我不知道这是如何联系起来的，但感觉这在这种类型的模型中非常重要。

And with just being at a startup, is that you're able to believe in it, and have the confidence and the trust in yourself.

刚刚在一家初创公司，你就能够相信它，并对自己有信心和信任。

Lenny: I'm going to quickly summarize this model just for people to have a very clear, succinct explanation, and then comment on anything I'm forgetting and missing.

Lenny：我将快速总结这个模型，以便人们有一个非常清晰、简洁的解释，然后对我忘记和遗漏的任何内容进行评论。

I'll keep it really brief.

我会保持简短。

And then we'll get to our very exciting lightning round.

然后我们将进入非常激动人心的闪电回合。

(01:24:28) So, the idea here, basically, is step one, make individual contributors at a company love your product.

(01:24:28) 所以，这里的想法基本上是第一步，让公司的个人贡献者喜欢你的产品。

Step two is get them to help spread you within the company.

第二步是让他们帮助你在公司内部传播。

And to get people to love your product, the four keys that you shared is: Build credibility for your product, build a product with your users, focus where you can connect with your users, one to many.

为了让人们喜欢你的产品，你分享的四个关键是：为你的产品建立可信度，与你的用户一起构建产品，专注于你可以与用户建立一对多联系的地方。

In your case, it was Twitter.

就你而言，是 Twitter。

And build a relationship with users so that they can start to trust you.

并与用户建立关系，以便他们开始信任您。

And transparency is a big part of that.

透明度是其中的重要组成部分。

Before I move on to step two, anything I missed there?

在进入第二步之前，我错过了什么吗？

Lenny: Okay, cool.

莱尼：好的，酷。

And then step two is help them spread that product within the organization.

第二步是帮助他们在组织内传播该产品。

And what you found was really important there.

你的发现非常重要。

One is make it easy to share the product and try it for free.

一是让分享产品和免费试用变得容易。

Two is designer advocates being involved in the sales process, have the Tom Factor.

二是设计师倡导参与销售过程，拥有汤姆因素。

Find and target the operating thing that spreads adoption.

找到并瞄准能够传播采用的运营事物。

In this case, I think it was design systems, you mentioned mostly.

在这种情况下，我认为是设计系统，你提到的最多。

And then the final piece is shine a light on champions, and help them be successful.

最后一部分是照亮冠军，并帮助他们取得成功。

Make it help them in their career.

让它对他们的职业生涯有所帮助。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

好了，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Claire Butler: I recommend management books to lots of people.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我向很多人推荐管理书籍。

The other piece of this that we didn't touch on at all is scaling a team, and all the things that go into management.

我们根本没有涉及的另一部分是扩展团队，以及涉及管理的所有事情。

Lenny: That'll be our next step, our next podcast.

莱尼：这将是我们的下一步，我们的下一个播客。

Claire Butler: Teaching, and also growing new managers.

克莱尔·巴特勒（Claire Butler）：教学并培养新经理。

So, Radical Candor and Dare to Lead, to be honest, are the ones I recommend the most.

因此，说实话，“激进坦率”和“敢于领导”是我最推荐的。

Because I do a lot of coaching new managers and helping them learn how to manage.

因为我做了很多指导新经理并帮助他们学习如何管理的工作。

And those are the first two I start with, because they're so good.

这些是我开始的前两个，因为它们非常好。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've recently watched and really liked?

莱尼：您最近看过并且非常喜欢的最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Claire Butler: I just watched 100 Foot Wave on HBO.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我刚刚在 HBO 上观看了《100 英尺波浪》。

And I watched it because I'm going to Portugal next week, and that's the place where they have the biggest waves in the world.

我观看它是因为我下周要去葡萄牙，那里有世界上最大的海浪。

And it was just really interesting to learn all about this, Nazare and Portugal, and all the waves and the surfing culture that's grown there.

了解这一切、纳扎雷和葡萄牙，以及那里生长的所有海浪和冲浪文化真的很有趣。

That was just a fun one that I watched recently.

这只是我最近看的一部有趣的电影。

Lenny: And is your plan to do a 100 foot wave?

Lenny：你计划进行 100 英尺的波浪吗？

Claire Butler: No. Because I am expecting, so there will be no surfing for me.

克莱尔·巴特勒：没有。因为我在怀孕，所以我不会冲浪。

Claire Butler: Yes, I know.

克莱尔·巴特勒：是的，我知道。

I will be doing yoga on the beach while my partner surfs.

当我的伴侣冲浪时，我将在海滩上做瑜伽。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

We just had a kid.

我们刚刚有了一个孩子。

That's a whole other podcast.

那是另一个播客。

This podcast, just, parenting starts to come up again and again.

这个播客，只是，育儿开始一次又一次地出现。

It's interesting.

这很有趣。

Okay, we'll keep going.

好的，我们会继续。

What is a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you love?

您最近发现自己喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Claire Butler: Okay.

克莱尔·巴特勒：好的。

You might cut this because it's a little promotional, but FigJam.

你可能会剪掉这个，因为它有点促销作用，但是FigJam。

In the last couple of months, especially, I've spent a lot of time having to create strategies and files and explanations, and I've spent in meetings.

特别是在过去的几个月里，我花了很多时间来创建策略、文件和解释，并且我花了很多时间在会议上。

And I spend all of my day in FigJam, literally, all of my day.

我一整天都在 FigJam 中度过，毫不夸张地说，一整天都在。

And I work with Figma.

我和 Figma 一起工作。

I use the product.

我使用该产品。

And I was using Figma for a long time.

我使用 Figma 很长时间了。

But FigJam for me, in my role, literally use it every single day.

但 FigJam 对我来说，以我的角色，实际上每天都在使用它。

And now I cannot imagine living without it.

现在我无法想象没有它的生活。

It replaces so many different tools for me.

它对我来说取代了很多不同的工具。

Lenny: Great pitch.

莱尼：很棒的演讲。

We will not be cutting that.

我们不会削减它。

I'm also a big fan of FigJam.

我也是 FigJam 的忠实粉丝。

Claire Butler: Great.

克莱尔·巴特勒：太好了。

It is true, it's very true.

这是真的，这是真的。

I'm in there all the time.

我一直在里面。

I think I'm the most active FigJam user.

我认为我是最活跃的 FigJam 用户。

validate that in the metrics.

在指标中验证这一点。

But I'm in FigJam all the time.

但我一直都在FigJam。

Lenny: Next question, what is a favorite life motto that you like to repeat to yourself, that you share with people?

莱尼：下一个问题，您最喜欢对自己重复并与他人分享的人生格言是什么？

Something that comes up when I ask that.

当我这么问的时候就会出现一些东西。

Claire Butler: When I was younger, I really was ...

克莱尔·巴特勒：当我年轻的时候，我真的是......

I've always been motivated.

我一直充满动力。

But like, "Oh, I have to get this thing right now." Whether it was in my career, or I was an athlete growing up.

但就像，“哦，我现在必须得到这个东西。”无论是在我的职业生涯中，还是在我成长过程中，我都是一名运动员。

I really wanted to perform and do well in things.

我真的很想表现出色并把事情做好。

And I just put a ton of pressure on myself.

我只是给自己施加了很大的压力。

Claire Butler: But I recently got, or not recently, in the last maybe five years, got this motto of consistent pressure over time as being more of my motto.

克莱尔·巴特勒：但我最近，或者不是最近，在过去的五年里，将随着时间的推移持续施加压力这句座右铭更多地作为我的座右铭。

And taking some of the pressure off of having to do things immediately, or get to a certain place too fast.

并减轻一些必须立即做事或太快到达某个地方的压力。

Maybe it's more of like Atomic Habits, or things like that.

也许它更像是原子习惯，或者类似的东西。

But I'm just much more in this mode of like, "You're not going to get everything done.

但我更多的是处于这种模式，“你不可能完成所有事情。

It's a startup.

这是一家初创公司。

But career, whatever, it's not going to happen immediately." You just have to keep working at it, and not giving up.

但职业生涯，无论如何，这不会立即发生。”你只需要继续努力，不要放弃。

And having that grit to keep going and keep pushing over time, is way more important than any immediate accomplishments.

拥有继续前进并不断推动的勇气，比任何眼前的成就更重要。

Lenny: That is so good.

莱尼：那太好了。

I just added this question to lightning round and these answers are so good each time.

我刚刚将这个问题添加到闪电轮中，每次这些答案都很好。

Consistent pressure over time.

随着时间的推移持续的压力。

I so get that.

我很明白。

Reminds me of how I think about the newsletter.

让我想起了我对时事通讯的看法。

It's just like, "Keep at it, keep at it.

就像，“坚持下去，坚持下去。

It doesn't have to be the best thing ever, every single time."

不一定每次都是最好的事情。”

Lenny: Great answer.

莱尼：很好的答案。

Final question, what's your favorite use case of Figma that you never expected?

最后一个问题，您最喜欢但从未预料到的 Figma 用例是什么？

Claire Butler: I think I mentioned this a little bit, but I use it for home renovation, FigJam especially.

Claire Butler：我想我提到过一点，但我用它来装修家居，尤其是 FigJam。

I renovated a house with my partner, and we're doing another one right now.

我和我的伴侣装修了一栋房子，现在我们正在装修另一栋。

And I couldn't do renovations without it.

没有它我就无法进行装修。

I copy and paste.

我复制并粘贴。

I start with Pinterest, get ideas.

我从 Pinterest 开始，获取想法。

But then I pull them all to the mood board on FigJam.

但后来我把它们全部拉到 FigJam 上的情绪板上。

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]And then I circle things, and this helps me communicate with my partner.

[NEW_PARAGRAPH]然后我圈出一些东西，这有助于我与我的伴侣沟通。

I'll send it to him and get comments from him on stuff, links.

我会将其发送给他并获取他对内容和链接的评论。

So, yes.

所以，是的。

We also will draw out rooms and model things up, and have them on the iPad.

我们还将绘制房间并对其进行建模，并将其显示在 iPad 上。

Yep.

是的。

Interior design and home renovations on FigJam.

FigJam 上的室内设计和家居装修。

Lenny: Claire, we've talked about making people love your product.

莱尼：克莱尔，我们已经讨论过如何让人们喜欢你的产品。

I think people will love this episode.

我认为人们会喜欢这一集。

Hopefully, they'll also spread it within their organization.

希望他们也能在他们的组织内传播它。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out?

如果人们想联系您，可以在哪里找到您？

And how can listeners be useful to you?

听众如何对你有用？

Claire Butler: I guess Twitter.

克莱尔·巴特勒：我猜是推特。

I'm not active, per se, but that's probably ...

我本身并不活跃，但这可能是......

I don't look at LinkedIn, so Twitter.

我不看LinkedIn，所以看Twitter。

That'd definitely be the place.

那绝对是那个地方。

Just Claire T.

只是克莱尔·T。

Butler there.

巴特勒在那里。

And then, helpful to me, you can tell me your feedback on FigJam and Dev Mode.

然后，您可以告诉我您对 FigJam 和 Dev 模式的反馈，这对我有帮助。

That would be really helpful to me.

这对我来说真的很有帮助。

And then I guess the other thing is parenting tips with work.

然后我想另一件事是工作中的育儿技巧。

I'm a little nervous about that.

我对此有点紧张。

I love my job, love my career.

我热爱我的工作，热爱我的事业。

And I'm going to be a mom soon, and need to figure out how to make that work.

我很快就要当妈妈了，需要弄清楚如何做到这一点。

So, I want to hear how other people have done that.

所以，我想听听其他人是如何做到的。

Lenny: I can give you two quick tips right now.

莱尼：我现在可以给你两个快速提示。

One is, there's a guest post during my Pat Leave, that Tamara ...

一是，在我休假期间有一篇客座文章，塔玛拉……

I forget her last name, wrote.

我忘记了她的姓氏，写道。

Which is basically a leave guide, a guide to setting yourself up.

这基本上是一份请假指南，一份自我安排指南。

Claire Butler: Oh, I need this.

克莱尔·巴特勒：哦，我需要这个。

I'm working on this right now.

我现在正在做这件事。

I need this.

我需要这个。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I will send this to you, and I'll link it in the show notes.

我会将其发送给您，并将其链接到演出笔记中。

Also, right before I went on Pat Leave, I had Noah Weiss on the podcast, who was just leaving Pat Leave.

另外，就在我离开帕特离开之前，我在播客上看到了诺亚·韦斯，他刚刚离开帕特离开。

Lenny: And he gave me this awesome advice of "Don't over-extrapolate every moment." This is less about getting ready for paternal leave, and more just being in it.

莱尼：他给了我这个很棒的建议“不要每时每刻都过度推断”。这并不是说要为陪产假做好准备，而更多的是要参与其中。

Which is, "Don't over-extrapolate things that are going on." That one thing that's bothering you or is a problem, is not going to continue, necessarily.

也就是说，“不要过度推断正在发生的事情。”困扰你或成为问题的一件事不一定会继续下去。

Claire Butler: Let it go.

克莱尔·巴特勒：随它去吧。

Good one.

好一个。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

Well, that's a parenting podcast, a little bit, which is totally cool.

嗯，这是一个育儿播客，一点点，这非常酷。

Claire, thank you again so much for being here.

克莱尔，再次非常感谢你来到这里。

I'll let you go.

我会让你走。

Claire Butler: Thank you.

克莱尔·巴特勒：谢谢。

That was really fun.

那真的很有趣。

Lenny: That's my KPI for this podcast.

Lenny：这是我对这个播客的 KPI。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。

PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:31:58]

第 4 部分（共 4 部分）结束 [01:31:58]