Relentless curiosity, radical accountability, and HubSpot’s winning growth formula | Chris Miller

Chris Miller: ...

克里斯·米勒：...

The actual really small initial growth team.

最初的增长团队实际上很小。

We really had an aggressive mentality, an aggressive approach, and what that looked like was at the time, a very small percentage of, I think HubSpot's subscription revenue would be described as self-service, so we approached the team who owned it and we were like, "Are you all working on this?" They were like, "Nah, we're working on a bunch of other stuff." We were like, "Can we take this?" They were like, "Sure, if you want it." And so, we took it and immediately blew it up, and so that attitude of saying that every problem is our problem and radical accountability and ownership mentality helped us find opportunities that maybe the business wasn't explicitly asking us to solve, but we were able to triangulate why it might be important for the business for us to solve it.

我们确实有一种积极进取的心态，一种积极进取的方法，当时看起来，我认为 HubSpot 的订阅收入中的一小部分可以被描述为自助服务，所以我们联系了拥有它的团队，我们说，“你们都在做这个吗？”他们的反应是，“不，我们正在做很多其他的事情。”我们当时想，“我们可以接受这个吗？”他们说：“当然，如果你想要的话。” And so, we took it and immediately blew it up, and so that attitude of saying that every problem is our problem and radical accountability and ownership mentality helped us find opportunities that maybe the business wasn't explicitly asking us to solve, but we were able to triangulate why it might be important for the business for us to solve it.

When you do that, we look hungry, so let's keep feeding us, right?

当你这样做时，我们看起来很饿，所以让我们继续喂我们吧？

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard win experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard win experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

Today, my guest is Chris Miller.

今天，我的嘉宾是克里斯·米勒。

Chris is VP of product for growth and AI at HubSpot.

Chris 是 HubSpot 的增长和人工智能产品副总裁。

Chris started as an ICPM at HubSpot where he helped create their early growth team and as you'll hear, shifted HubSpot towards one of the most successful product-led growth businesses in history.

Chris 最初是 HubSpot 的 ICPM，帮助创建了他们的早期增长团队，正如您将听到的，他将 HubSpot 转变为历史上最成功的产品主导型增长企业之一。

Seven years later, he leads both their growth and AI teams and advises founders on product-like growth and growth strategy in general.

七年后，他领导了他们的增长和人工智能团队，并为创始人提供了类似产品的增长和总体增长战略的建议。

Lenny: In our wide-ranging conversation, we cover what it takes to become a successful product leader in tech, what skills the most successful PMs need to build, how to find mentors, why you need to scrape your knees as an early PM.

Lenny: In our wide-ranging conversation, we cover what it takes to become a successful product leader in tech, what skills the most successful PMs need to build, how to find mentors, why you need to scrape your knees as an early PM.

Also, a lot of great stories and insights about what HubSpot figured out about growth across content, sales product, market segments, and growth loops.

此外，还有许多关于 HubSpot 关于内容、销售产品、细分市场和增长循环增长的精彩故事和见解。

I so enjoyed this conversation and we could have gone for another hour if I didn't cut myself off, and so I'm really excited for you to listen to this conversation.

我非常喜欢这次谈话，如果我不打断自己的话，我们可能还会再聊一个小时，所以我真的很高兴你能听到这次谈话。

With that, I bring you Chris Miller after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了克里斯·米勒。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速您的成长。

Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Comm, Quora, and Modern Treasury trust Vanta to help build, scale, manage, and demonstrate their security and compliance programs and get ready for audits in weeks, not months.

Gusto、Comm、Quora 和 Modern Treasury 等数千家快速发展的公司信任 Vanta 帮助构建、扩展、管理和演示其安全与合规计划，并在数周（而不是数月）内为审核做好准备。

By offering the most in-demand security and privacy frameworks such as SOC 2, ISO 27001, GDPR, HIPAA, and many more.

通过提供最受欢迎的安全和隐私框架，例如 SOC 2、ISO 27001、GDPR、HIPAA 等。

Vanta helps companies obtain the reports they need to accelerate growth, build efficient compliance processes, mitigate risks to their businesses, and build trust with external stakeholders.

Vanta 帮助公司获取加速增长、建立高效合规流程、降低业务风险以及与外部利益相关者建立信任所需的报告。

Over 5,000 fast-growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2 and these other frameworks.

超过 5,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 和其他框架所涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

For a limited time Lenny's podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

Lenny 的播客听众限时享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Go to vanta.com/lenny, that's V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny to learn more and to claim your discounts.

请访问vanta.com/lenny（即V-A-N-T-A.com/lenny）了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Sidebar.

莱尼：这一集是由 Sidebar 为您带来的。

Are you looking to land your next big career move or start your own thing?

您是否正在寻找下一个重大职业变动或开始自己的事业？

One of the most effective ways to create a big leap in your career and something that worked really well for me a few years ago is to create a personal board of directors, a trusted peer group where you can discuss challenges you're having, get career advice, and just kind of gut check how you're thinking about your work, your career, and your life.

实现职业生涯重大飞跃的最有效方法之一是创建一个个人董事会，这是一个值得信赖的同行小组，几年前对我来说非常有效，您可以在其中讨论您遇到的挑战，获得职业建议，并直观地检查您对工作、职业和生活的看法。

This has been a big trajectory changer for me, but it's hard to build this trusted group.

这对我来说是一个巨大的轨迹改变，但建立这个值得信赖的团队很困难。

With Sidebar, senior leaders are matched with highly vetted private supportive peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions, diverse perspectives, and raw feedback.

通过 Sidebar，高级领导者可以与经过严格审查的私人支持性同行团体进行匹配，以获取公正的意见、不同的观点和原始反馈。

Lenny: Everyone has their own zone of genius, so together we're better prepared to navigate professional pitfalls, leading to more responsibility, faster promotions, and bigger impact.

Lenny: Everyone has their own zone of genius, so together we're better prepared to navigate professional pitfalls, leading to more responsibility, faster promotions, and bigger impact.

Guided by world-class programming and facilitation, Sidebar enables you to get focused, tactical feedback at every step of your journey.

在世界一流的编程和便利的指导下，Sidebar 使您能够在旅程的每一步获得有针对性的战术反馈。

If you're a listener of this podcast, you're likely already driven and committed to growth.

如果您是此播客的听众，您可能已经有动力并致力于成长。

A Sidebar personal board of directors is the missing piece to catalyze that journey.

侧栏个人董事会是催化这一旅程所缺失的部分。

Why spend a decade finding your people when you can meet them at Sidebar today?

今天您就可以在补充工具栏上见到您的朋友，为什么要花十年的时间来寻找他们呢？

Jump the growing wait list of thousands of leaders from top tech companies by visiting sidebar.com/lenny to learn more, that's sidebar.com/lenny.

访问 sidebar.com/lenny 来了解更多信息，跳过由顶级科技公司的数千名领导者组成的不断增长的候补名单，即 sidebar.com/lenny。

Chris, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

克里斯，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Chris Miller: I'm so excited to be on the podcast.

克里斯·米勒：我很高兴能参加播客。

Thank you, Lenny, for having me.

谢谢你，莱尼，谢谢你邀请我。

This will be a lot of fun.

这会很有趣。

Lenny: A huge thank you to Kyle Poyer for introducing us.

莱尼：非常感谢凯尔·波耶 (Kyle Poyer) 向我们介绍。

I've heard so many great things about you from so many great people, and so I'm really excited to be chatting and I wanted to start with your very unique role that you're in now at HubSpot and it feels like it might be a sign of things to come for product leaders.

我从很多伟大的人那里听到了很多关于你的伟大事情，所以我真的很高兴能和你聊天，我想从你现在在 HubSpot 所扮演的非常独特的角色开始，感觉这可能是产品领导者未来发展的一个标志。

Your title as far as I can tell is VP of product of growth and AI.

据我所知，你的头衔是增长和人工智能产品副总裁。

Can you just talk about what that is and how growth and AI relate in the context of HubSpot?

您能谈谈这是什么以及增长与人工智能在 HubSpot 背景下的关系吗？

Chris Miller: I've been leading PLG at HubSpot for several years now, and I recently took on the AI leadership role.

Chris Miller：我在 HubSpot 领导 PLG 已经好几年了，最近我担任了 AI 领导职务。

It's a special place to be in and that I get to help lead HubSpot in terms of how we should be thinking about building the foundational technology to create AI-powered experiences and then also lead the strategy of how we leverage those experiences to help that B2B business builder be way more successful using our platform than they might've been in years past.

这是一个特殊的地方，我可以帮助领导 HubSpot 思考如何构建基础技术来创造人工智能驱动的体验，然后领导我们如何利用这些经验来帮助 B2B 业务创建者使用我们的平台比过去几年更成功的战略。

So, it's a really cool intersection point between those two things.

所以，这是这两件事之间非常酷的交叉点。

There's a lot we can do there.

我们可以在那里做很多事情。

Lenny: One thing I took away from what you just shared is that you are given these two teams to lead, which aren't necessarily connected, but I think it tells me that you're doing a great job at HubSpot and I'm going to try to pierce through your modesty and I'm curious, what is it that you think you've done really well or been successful at that got the leaders at HubSpot to decide to give you this other team that feels like an incredibly important initiative in this time of AI?

Lenny: One thing I took away from what you just shared is that you are given these two teams to lead, which aren't necessarily connected, but I think it tells me that you're doing a great job at HubSpot and I'm going to try to pierce through your modesty and I'm curious, what is it that you think you've done really well or been successful at that got the leaders at HubSpot to decide to give you this other team that feels like an incredibly important initiative in this time of AI?

Chris Miller: So when I joined HubSpot in 2016, it was definitely an element of timing that really worked in my favor.

Chris Miller：所以，当我在 2016 年加入 HubSpot 时，时机确实对我有利。

It was maybe like a year or so after HubSpot had launched their free CRM, which was a big strategic play for them and for us, excuse me, at the time, and it was meant to be disruptive, but I don't think that there was a fully formed perspective on what was going to happen after that.

大概是在 HubSpot 推出免费 CRM 一年左右之后，对不起，当时这对他们和我们来说都是一次重大的战略行动，它本来是具有颠覆性的，但我认为对于之后会发生的事情还没有一个完全形成的观点。

How are we actually going to get leverage and enterprise value out of this sort of big, enormous piece of free software we just put into the universe?

How are we actually going to get leverage and enterprise value out of this sort of big, enormous piece of free software we just put into the universe?

And I think the pedigree of product manager at HubSpot at that time was also a bit different.

而且我觉得当时HubSpot的产品经理的血统也有点不一样。

There were folks who maybe started their time at HubSpot in support, and so intimately familiar with the product and with customers.

有些人可能是从 HubSpot 开始从事支持工作的，因此对产品和客户非常熟悉。

Some of these people had closed thousands of support tickets and my background was a bit different.

其中一些人已经关闭了数千张支持请求，而我的背景有点不同。

Chris Miller: I was actually less of a feature PM and I was sort of more of a growth PM in my DNA, and so I sort of looked at this through a completely different lens and I guess I understood that what we were trying to actually do was product-led growth, but we didn't really have the shared vocabulary to call it that.

Chris Miller：实际上，在我的基因里，我并不是一个功能产品经理，而是一个增长产品经理，所以我从一个完全不同的角度来看待这个问题，我想我明白我们实际上想做的是产品主导的增长，但我们并没有真正拥有共同的词汇来称呼它。

And so I think to answer your question, I think I was just willing to take some risks and really push for the things that I believed made sense even though maybe based on the titles that I had at the time, I wasn't sort of inherently given a seat at the table and really pushed my away into some of these conversations and then was eventually invited to them.

所以我想回答你的问题，我想我只是愿意冒一些风险，真正推动我认为有意义的事情，尽管也许基于我当时拥有的头衔，我本质上并没有在谈判桌上占有一席之地，而是真正把我推到了其中一些对话中，然后最终被邀请参加它们。

And so, just always had an interest in driving a strategy that was a click or two higher than maybe what my immediate team was focused on and was always curious about how other parts of the business functioned.

因此，我总是有兴趣推动比我的直属团队关注的内容高一两次点击的策略，并且总是对业务其他部分的运作方式感到好奇。

Chris Miller: I used to spend a lot of time sitting on the sales floor, just going into the other buildings and talking to other folks, working on different parts of the business, and that's part of maybe the serendipity that I miss about being in person, which is that you might just discover something from having a casual conversation with someone at the water cooler.

克里斯·米勒（Chris Miller）：我曾经花很多时间坐在销售楼层，只是走进其他建筑物并与其他人交谈，在业务的不同部分工作，这可能是我怀念面对面的机缘的一部分，那就是你可能会在饮水机旁与某人随意交谈时发现一些东西。

You're like, "Oh, that's an interesting problem.

你会说，“哦，这是一个有趣的问题。

I think my team can help with that," so you absorb a bunch of context around how pieces of the business are connected and you can start to really widen your aperture in terms of the size of opportunities that might be in front of you that maybe you would've missed if you would've been so heads down on execution work.

我认为我的团队可以在这方面提供帮助，”这样你就可以吸收大量有关业务各个部分如何相互关联的背景信息，并且你可以开始真正扩大你的视野，了解可能摆在你面前的机会的规模，如果你一直专注于执行工作，你可能会错过这些机会。

And so, if I had to guess how people might talk about that, if I wasn't in the room, maybe they would cite that, but it's tough to say.

因此，如果我不得不猜测人们会如何谈论这一点，如果我不在房间里，也许他们会引用这一点，但这很难说。

Lenny: Hard to do those serendipitous watercolor chats in these remote hybrid times, huh?

莱尼：在这个遥远的混合时代，很难进行那些偶然的水彩聊天，对吧？

Chris Miller: Yeah, everything's so scheduled and tightly scheduled and you're bouncing from Zoom to Zoom and obviously HubSpot has embraced hybrid and there's a ton of benefit to it.

Chris Miller：是的，一切都安排得如此紧凑，你从一个 Zoom 跳到另一个 Zoom，显然 HubSpot 已经接受了混合，并且它有很多好处。

In fact, I was a new dad when I came back to work and my son wasn't in daycare, and so it was so cool to just be able to pop out in between meetings and play with him for a few minutes just to go back and you don't get that when you're in the office all day.

事实上，当我回来工作时，我是一个新爸爸，而我的儿子不在日托所，所以能够在会议间隙抽出时间和他一起玩几分钟然后回去真是太酷了，而当你一整天都在办公室时，你是做不到这一点的。

So definitely a lot of upside, but certainly you got to be a little bit more creative in terms of that serendipitous knowledge sharing, the osmosis learning, and just context sharing that happens more organically when everybody's sharing the same physical space.

所以肯定有很多好处，但当然，在偶然的知识共享、渗透学习以及当每个人共享相同的物理空间时更有机地发生的上下文共享方面，你必须更具创造力。

Lenny: You talked about how some of your early success was taking risks and being in meetings maybe you shouldn't be in.

莱尼：你谈到了你早期的成功是如何冒险和参加也许你不应该参加的会议。

Is there an example or a story that comes to mind of doing that where you kind of took a risk early kind of in being a PM at HubSpot and/ or something that worked out really well, surprisingly?

是否有一个例子或一个故事让你想到这样做，你很早就在 HubSpot 担任 PM 并/或取得了非常好的效果，令人惊讶？

Chris Miller: This is a funny story.

克里斯·米勒：这是一个有趣的故事。

For anybody at HubSpot listening, I apologize in retrospect for this, but-

对于 HubSpot 收听的任何人，我对此表示歉意，但是——

Chris Miller: There was a time where we were having a lot of debates around pricing and packaging, and we'll get into this, but our go-to-market model and sort of where we play in the addressable market created some complexity in the sense of we're serving different parts of the market simultaneously with the connected unified platform.

克里斯·米勒：曾经有一段时间，我们围绕定价和包装进行了很多争论，我们将对此进行讨论，但我们的上市模式以及我们在目标市场中的定位造成了一些复杂性，因为我们通过连接的统一平台同时为市场的不同部分提供服务。

And so, how do you think about packaging and go-to-market?

那么，您如何看待包装和上市？

And we were trying to just figure out how to simplify, simplify, simplify.

我们试图弄清楚如何简化、简化、再简化。

And at the time I was an IC, individual contributing PM, so who am I to have a point of view on pricing and packaging?

当时我是一名 IC、个人贡献 PM，那么我有什么资格对定价和包装发表观点呢？

But the person I was working with, my designer, her name's Mariah Moscato, she's in product now, she's excellent, we were part of a triad and we both had a similar school of thought in terms of what the pricing packaging could be.

但和我一起工作的人，我的设计师，她的名字叫玛丽亚·莫斯卡托，她现在正在生产产品，她很优秀，我们是黑社会的一部分，我们在定价包装方面有着相似的思想流派。

Chris Miller: And we were over in Dublin where we have our European headquarters and there was a party happening at the Guinness sort of storehouse, and I don't know that we were exactly on the guest list, but we figured out a way to get into the party and we ran into the COO at the time and out of the blue I think he had asked us what we thought about pricing and packaging and it was sort of one of those funny you should ask moments.

克里斯·米勒：当时我们在都柏林，我们有欧洲总部，在吉尼斯之类的仓库里正在举办一场派对，我不知道我们到底在客人名单上，但我们找到了一种进入派对的方法，当时我们遇到了首席运营官，我想他突然问我们对定价和包装的看法，这是你应该问的有趣时刻之一。

And so, we ended up kind of pitching in the midst of pints being sort of handed every which way you could turn this vision for a completely different way we might approach pricing and packaging, and he was pretty intrigued and he said, "Why don't you come to the next executive meeting and pitch us on it?"

因此，我们最终在各种方式进行推销，你可以将这一愿景转变为一种完全不同的方式，我们可能会处理定价和包装，他很感兴趣，他说，“你为什么不来参加下一次执行会议并向我们推销呢？”

Chris Miller: I think that meeting was maybe a couple of weeks away and so we looked at each other and we were like, "Uh-oh," not exactly what we expected in terms of, I think people welcoming maybe a contrarian point of view at that moment in time.

克里斯·米勒：我认为会议可能还有几周的时间，所以我们互相看着对方，然后我们说，“哦，”这并不完全符合我们的预期，我认为人们在那一刻可能会欢迎逆向观点。

And so, we sort of were invited into this meeting with folks that we generally don't get to spend a lot of time with to pitch this thing that swam a little bit upstream and we ultimately didn't go full steam ahead down that path.

因此，我们被邀请参加这次会议，与我们通常不会花很多时间的人一起推销这个逆流而上的东西，我们最终没有沿着这条路全速前进。

I think a lot of elements of what we pitched have made their way over time into HubSpot's pricing and packaging, but it certainly I think opened the door for us and for me, speaking for myself, certainly for me to be welcomed back into that room in the future and to be able to contribute ideas towards important decisions.

我认为，随着时间的推移，我们推销的很多元素已经融入到 HubSpot 的定价和包装中，但我认为这无疑为我们和我打开了大门，为我自己说话，当然也为我在未来受到欢迎回到那个房间，并能够为重要决策贡献想法。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

It's another example of serendipity and just running into people.

这是机缘巧合和偶然相遇的另一个例子。

Also, I think it's a really good example of just how important it's for PMs to be proactive and think ahead and not just rely on people coming to you, asking you for your advice and getting invited to rooms.

另外，我认为这是一个很好的例子，说明了产品经理积极主动、超前思考的重要性，而不仅仅是依赖人们来找你、向你征求建议并被邀请到会议室。

I feel like so much of success in the product leadership role is just suggesting great ideas, being ahead of where people are and having the answers.

我觉得产品领导角色的成功只是提出了伟大的想法，领先于人们并找到了答案。

You have the answer right there in the moment because you did the work ahead of time.

你现在就已经有了答案，因为你提前完成了工作。

Is that something you find as well that ends up being really important?

您是否也发现这件事最终变得非常重要？

Chris Miller: Yeah, one of the traits that I look for in PMs that I hire onto my teams, and also when I think back to the people that I've learned a lot from working with over the years, one of the common behaviors or traits is relentless curiosity, this insatiable desire to understand things and a lack of fear in admitting when they don't understand things and being uncompromising and getting the answers so that they do understand.

Chris Miller：是的，我在团队中聘用的 PM 中寻找的特质之一，而且当我回想起这些年来与我一起工作的人时，他们的共同行为或特质之一是不懈的好奇心，这种对理解事物的永不满足的渴望，以及在承认他们不理解的事情时不畏惧，不妥协并获得答案，以便他们真正理解。

And I think if you can bring that to the table, it's much easier to have an outsized impact on whatever or you're a part of or whatever mission you're working on or whatever team you may be a member of.

我认为，如果你能把这一点摆到桌面上，那么就更容易对你所参与的任何事情、你正在执行的任何任务或你可能所属的任何团队产生巨大的影响。

Lenny: Are there any other traits on that list of traits you look for that you think are really important that maybe other people don't focus on?

莱尼：在你寻找的特质列表中，是否还有其他你认为非常重要但其他人没有关注的特质？

Chris Miller: Yeah, relentless curiosity is probably my number one.

克里斯·米勒：是的，不懈的好奇心可能是我的第一要务。

My number two would probably be resilience, specifically if you're working in growth.

我的第二点可能是韧性，特别是如果你从事增长工作的话。

I think if you're doing growth, right, if you're doing product-led growth the right way, then you're trying to balance the science and sort of taking a somewhat hygienic approach to validating assumptions and hypotheses with being really ambitious and really pushing for the things that are going to have massive impact for your customers at the end of the day.

我认为，如果你正在做增长，对，如果你以正确的方式进行产品主导的增长，那么你就会试图在科学和采取某种卫生方法来验证假设和假说之间取得平衡，同时雄心勃勃，真正推动那些最终会对你的客户产生巨大影响的事情。

And when you're doing that, you're going to fail more than you're going to be successful along the way.

当你这样做时，一路上你失败的次数会多于成功的次数。

And if you're not resilient, that can be really demotivating.

如果你没有韧性，那真的会让人失去动力。

I think there's a stat that some growth person put out there years ago, which is that on average only 20 to 30% of experiments of growth team runs might be successful.

我认为一些增长人士几年前就曾公布过一项统计数据，即增长团队的实验平均只有 20% 到 30% 可能会成功。

So, that means 70 to 80% of the time you're, you're not putting numbers on the board and you're extracting learnings hopefully that you can apply to the future.

所以，这意味着 70% 到 80% 的时间里，你不是在黑板上写数字，而是在提取经验教训，希望可以应用到未来。

Chris Miller: But I think if you're not resilient, what I've seen happen is you end up sort of grasping for a win, which can sometimes look like making bets that are too small and too insignificant to matter.

克里斯·米勒：但我认为，如果你没有韧性，我所看到的情况就是你最终会抓住胜利，这有时看起来像是下的赌注太小、太微不足道，根本不重要。

If your sort of primary modality of product-led growth work is experiment-driven product development and you're hitting more than like 30, 40% of the time, you're thinking too small.

如果您以产品为主导的增长工作的主要方式是实验驱动的产品开发，并且您的成功率超过 30%、40%，那么您的想法就太小了。

And so, that resiliency piece is certainly important in my mind.

因此，在我看来，弹性部分当然很重要。

I think coachability is another one in the sense that I still think that the sort of subcategory of growth product management is still fledgling compared to PMs working on platform features.

我认为可指导性是另一种意义，因为我仍然认为与从事平台功能的产品经理相比，增长产品管理的子类别仍然处于起步阶段。

And so, even when I'm interviewing folks, I'm not necessarily looking for 10 years of experience doing PLG.

因此，即使我在面试人们，我也不一定会寻找拥有 10 年 PLG 经验的人。

I think that's mostly an unreasonable ask, but it can certainly be taught and even if you do have some experience doing PLG work, it's important to know that what that work is going to look like is going to potentially vary in a meaningful way from shop to shop.

我认为这基本上是一个不合理的要求，但它肯定是可以教授的，即使您确实有一些从事 PLG 工作的经验，重要的是要知道这项工作的外观可能会因商店而异。

Chris Miller: And so, being coachable and adaptable to whatever the context is of the business or problem space that you're working on I think is an important trait that I look for in PMs, and then creativity is so important too.

Chris Miller：因此，我认为，我认为 PM 的一个重要特质是能够接受指导并适应您正在处理的业务或问题空间的任何环境，而且创造力也非常重要。

Valuing simple solutions to really hard problems, I think if building the next super sophisticated widget is the thing that gets you out of bed in the morning, growth might not be for you, I think the best growth product leaders and growth minds that I've worked with over the years or have had the privilege of learning from over the years, I think the thing that I noticed about them is they're almost ambivalent to the solution and certainly ambivalent to how complex a solution may or may not be.

重视对真正困难问题的简单解决方案，我认为如果构建下一个超级复杂的小部件是让你早上起床的事情，那么增长可能不适合你，我认为我多年来共事过的最好的增长产品领导者和增长思想，或者多年来有幸向他们学习，我认为我注意到他们对解决方案几乎是矛盾的，当然对解决方案可能或可能不复杂的态度也很矛盾。

And taking little to no pleasure or pride in the complexity of a solution so long that it delivers the outcome that the business and your customers need, I think is a really cool trait, and I kind categorize that under creativity.

只要解决方案能够提供业务和客户所需的结果，我就不会因为解决方案的复杂性而感到高兴或自豪，我认为这是一个非常酷的特质，我将其归类为创造力。

Lenny: You mentioned this phrase, relentless curiosity, and it made me think about a story I read about you where the way you got into product management was you were at some startup and the founder was just like, "I've read that the cure to all our problems is going to be hiring product manager," and you heard that and you googled, what is product management, and then you asked them, "Can I do that?" And that's how you got into the role.

莱尼：你提到了这句话，不懈的好奇心，这让我想起了我读过的一个关于你的故事，你进入产品管理的方式是你在一家初创公司，创始人就像是，“我读到解决我们所有问题的方法是雇用产品经理，”你听到这句话，你在谷歌上搜索，什么是产品管理，然后你问他们，“我可以这样做吗？”这就是你进入这个角色的方式。

So first of all, is that true?

那么首先，这是真的吗？

And second of all, what's your advice to people trying to get into product management and any lessons from that experience?

其次，您对那些试图进入产品管理领域的人有什么建议，以及从这次经历中得到的教训是什么？

Chris Miller: So first, yes, that is 100% true.

Chris Miller：所以首先，是的，这是 100% 正确的。

That is how I stumbled into product management.

这就是我偶然进入产品管理的原因。

So, I appreciate all the folks who took a shot on me back then, but this was at a time where I would say product management even as a function was definitely not ubiquitous across tech.

所以，我很感谢当时所有对我进行攻击的人，但在那个时候，我想说，产品管理即使作为一种功能，在整个技术领域也绝对不是普遍存在的。

There was, at least in the world that I was in, a lot more of a standard waterfall approach to building product with a lot of middle layers and engineering managers and really no one who had the job of owning the problem from a customer's point of view.

至少在我所处的世界里，有更多的标准瀑布方法来构建产品，有很多中间层和工程经理，而且实际上没有人负责从客户的角度来解决问题。

And so, there wasn't a ton of content out there.

因此，那里没有太多内容。

There weren't even a ton of people in the city at the time that I could really talk to sort of learn, and so a lot of what I did was scrape my knees through the first years and a lot of painful trial and error.

当时城里甚至没有很多人可以让我真正交谈学习，所以我所做的很多事情都是在最初的几年里艰难地度过，并经历了很多痛苦的尝试和错误。

Chris Miller: And then eventually I think there's a lot more energy and an interest around the trade craft and the function, and so I think it's much easier today for someone to learn the fundamentals of product management without necessarily needing to do it via trial by fire.

克里斯·米勒：最终我认为人们对贸易工艺和功能有更多的精力和兴趣，所以我认为今天人们学习产品管理的基础知识要容易得多，而不必通过艰苦的试验来做到这一点。

My advice to folks who are interested in breaking into product management specifically is focus on a few things.

我对那些有兴趣进入产品管理领域的人的建议是关注一些事情。

One, focus on structure.

一是注重结构。

I think there's usually a lower barrier to entry to do product management at a smaller shop, which they might not have as much access to the best talent out there, but I think what you may often give up in those instances is structure to your own sort of professional development and formal training and education and potentially even the opportunity to work for people who are truly battle tested and have seen the movie several times and can actually wisdom share because truthfully, it looks different in every company, and so it is one of those functions.

我认为在小商店进行产品管理通常门槛较低，他们可能没有那么多机会接触到最优秀的人才，但我认为在这种情况下你可能经常放弃的是你自己的专业发展和正规培训和教育的结构，甚至可能放弃为那些真正经过战斗考验、看过电影多次并且实际上可以分享智慧的人工作的机会，因为说实话，每个公司看起来都不同，所以它是这些功能之一。

Chris Miller: I do believe that taking a truly academic approach towards upskilling has fairly diminishing returns because it's tough to field curveballs in a classroom.

克里斯·米勒（Chris Miller）：我确实相信，采取真正的学术方法来提高技能的回报会相当递减，因为在教室里打出曲线球是很困难的。

And so, choosing where you want to break in is almost as important as choosing that you want to break in the first place.

因此，选择你想要闯入的地方几乎与选择你想要闯入的地方一样重要。

Thinking about who you're going to be reporting to, thinking about what's the track record of success for people at that company, breaking into product management, trying to think five years in advance and work backwards, I think are all sort of important thought exercises along the way.

思考你将向谁汇报，思考该公司员工的成功记录，进入产品管理领域，尝试提前五年思考并向后工作，我认为这些都是重要的思维练习。

I would also say that if you're already at a shop where you are working at a different function and you're sort of product curious, go talk to the PMs, literally I say go reach out to a PM and ask how you can make their day easier.

我还想说，如果你已经在一家商店从事不同的职能工作，并且你对产品有点好奇，那就去和产品经理谈谈，我说的是去联系产品经理，询问如何让他们的一天变得更轻松。

Chris Miller: Figure out what you can do in your spare time that they can offload to you and do a little bit of volunteer labor, even if that's just shadowing because I think just getting that context and understanding the sort of rhythm of how a team ideates and defines problems and prioritizes and ship software is the experience that's going to be the most important because a lot of product management is also managing personalities and figuring out how people want to work with you and figuring out how you work for them.

Chris Miller：弄清楚你可以在业余时间做什么，他们可以分担给你，做一些志愿劳动，即使这只是影子，因为我认为只要了解背景并理解团队如何构思、定义问题、确定优先级和交付软件的节奏，这将是最重要的体验，因为很多产品管理也在管理个性，弄清楚人们希望如何与你合作，并弄清楚你如何为他们工作。

And so, just getting that hands-on experience or at least direct sight-line into the day-to-day of a team is really important because the extent to which you can understand their problem space and understand the things that keep them up at night, you can be valuable, and then at the very least, what you get out of it is hopefully an advocate or a sponsor at the end of the day who is willing to gamble some professional and political capital on you to get your foot into the door even though you might not have any formal experience on your resume.

因此，获得实践经验或至少直接了解团队的日常工作非常重要，因为你能够在多大程度上了解他们的问题空间并了解让他们彻夜难眠的事情，你是有价值的，然后至少，你从中得到的希望是一天结束时的倡导者或赞助商，他们愿意在你身上赌上一些专业和政治资本，让你踏入大门，即使你的简历上可能没有任何正式的经验。

Lenny: There's so much stuff that super resonates there.

莱尼：那里有很多能引起超级共鸣的东西。

One is that I always think of the bare minimum job of a PM is just to be useful to people on the team and help them do better work.

一是我一直认为 PM 最起码的工作就是对团队中的人有用并帮助他们做得更好。

If you do that alone, people-

如果你单独做这件事，人们——

Chris Miller: I must be old, I don't know that anybody uses bringing the donuts now anymore.

克里斯·米勒：我一定是老了，我不知道现在还有人带甜甜圈了。

Lenny: No, we had Ken on the podcast, we talked about it.

莱尼：不，我们有肯在播客上，我们讨论过它。

We asked, what is the digital version of that when everyone's working remote?

我们问，当每个人都远程工作时，数字版本是什么？

I think that's something that even if you're a brand new PM you come across soon enough.

我认为即使您是一位全新的产品经理，您也很快就会遇到这一点。

And then the other piece there, I really love this metaphor of scraping your knees because I find that to be so important to becoming a PM is you think you could just read these things, take some courses and you got this, and you're not going to mess up, but I find that messing up is so important in helping to learn to do the job because like you said, there's relationships and people and changing plans and leaders, and it's just like you're not going to get it right and you learn how to deal with all these things by messing it up.

然后另一篇文章，我真的很喜欢这个擦膝盖的比喻，因为我发现对于成为一名产品经理来说如此重要的是你认为你可以阅读这些东西，参加一些课程，然后你就得到了这个，你不会搞砸，但我发现搞砸对于帮助学习完成这项工作非常重要，因为就像你说的，有人际关系和人员以及不断变化的计划和领导者，就像你不会把事情做好一样，你学会如何处理所有的事情把这些事情搞砸了。

Lenny: So, I super agree with that, and even though you said it's easier not to learn to be a PM, it's still I think important to scrape your knees a number of times for you to actually learn to do the job.

Lenny：所以，我非常同意这一点，尽管你说不学习成为一名产品经理会更容易，但我仍然认为，为了真正学会做这份工作，多次擦膝盖仍然很重要。

Along those lines, what did you find was most helpful to you to learn the craft of product management in the first few years?

沿着这些思路，您发现在最初几年里什么对您学习产品管理技巧最有帮助？

What do you think back to like, "Oh, that was really helpful," other than just doing it messing up, sometimes getting it right?"

除了把事情搞砸，有时把事情做对之外，你觉得“哦，这真的很有帮助”，还有什么？

Chris Miller: So, my first product management job/mission was working on a B2B2C product, and there's a lot of unique challenges that came with that.

Chris Miller：所以，我的第一份产品管理工作/任务是开发 B2B2C 产品，随之而来的是许多独特的挑战。

Our customer was not the end user of our product.

我们的客户不是我们产品的最终用户。

We sold into institutions who then white labeled our product and then resold it to the end customer.

我们向机构出售产品，然后这些机构将我们的产品贴上白色标签，然后将其转售给最终客户。

And so at the end of the day, our customers own the relationship with the end user and not us, and so-

所以归根结底，我们的客户拥有与最终用户的关系，而不是我们，所以-

Chris Miller: ...

克里斯·米勒：...

own the relationship with the end user and not us.

拥有与最终用户的关系，而不是我们。

And so, the challenges that that created were that there was a lot of distance between us and the voice of the end user.

因此，这带来的挑战是我们与最终用户的声音之间存在很大的距离。

And we ended up building a lot of things to satisfy the buyer and the customer, but not necessarily the end user.

我们最终构建了很多东西来满足买家和客户，但不一定是最终用户。

And that's challenging because you don't necessarily know whether you're building something to get a contract signed, or you're building something that's going to delight the person using it at the end of the day, or provide magical value.

这很有挑战性，因为你不一定知道你正在构建的东西是否是为了签署合同，或者你正在构建的东西最终会让使用它的人感到高兴，或者提供神奇的价值。

And so, I think I probably shipped a lot of bad product those years, if I'm being completely honest.

因此，如果我完全诚实的话，我想那些年我可能运送了很多劣质产品。

I don't know that I would look back at what I shipped back then or what we shipped back then, and say they were the best possible solutions or best possible product.

我不知道我会回顾我当时运送的东西或我们当时运送的东西，并说它们是最好的解决方案或最好的产品。

Chris Miller: It wasn't until I got my second product management job where it really was an inflection point, where I was like, "Oh, got it.

克里斯·米勒：直到我找到第二份产品管理工作，这才真正成为一个转折点，我当时想，“哦，明白了。

This is what this is supposed to look and feel like."

这就是它应该看起来和感觉的样子。”

Lenny: Where was that?

莱尼：那是哪里？

Was that with Keeper?

是和Keeper一起的吗？

Chris Miller: I was working at a fitness technology company, and the person who really I would say changed my entire paradigm of what product management is supposed to be, someone I know you know, Fareed Mosavat, who I believe was on the pod-

克里斯·米勒（Chris Miller）：我当时在一家健身技术公司工作，我想说的是，那个人真正改变了我对产品管理的整个范式，我认识你认识的人，法里德·莫萨瓦特（Fareed Mosavat），我相信他就在播客中——

Chris Miller: ...

克里斯·米勒：...

last October.

去年十月。

Shout out to Fareed if you're listening.

如果你在听的话，请大声向法里德喊叫。

Fareed is a good friend and mentor, and he really helped me level up.

法里德是我的好朋友和导师，他确实帮助我提升了水平。

And what was interesting about those years is it was the first time I'd really gotten to work on a product where it was a freemium B2C run-tracking app.

那些年的有趣之处在于，这是我第一次真正开始开发免费增值 B2C 跑步跟踪应用程序的产品。

And so, we spent a lot of time talking to users directly, and a lot of guerrilla user research techniques.

因此，我们花了很多时间直接与用户交谈，并使用了很多游击式用户研究技术。

Literally, sometimes going outside and just talking to runners in passing to understand what were the challenges in finding motivation, and why do they choose running assistance, running applications in the first place?

从字面上看，有时到外面只是顺便与跑步者交谈，以了解寻找动力的挑战是什么，以及为什么他们首先选择跑步辅助、运行应用程序？

And so, just that having that deep connection to the customer and not feeling like you're being kept at arms' distance was eyeopening.

因此，与客户建立深厚的联系，而不是感觉自己与客户保持着距离，这真是令人大开眼界。

I was like, "Oh, I didn't know that it could be like this."

我当时想，“哦，我不知道事情会是这样的。”

Chris Miller: And then, the second thing that we had at our disposal that changed the game for me was access to a huge user data set.

克里斯·米勒：然后，我们可以使用的第二件事改变了我的游戏规则，那就是访问庞大的用户数据集。

And so, having data at scale to drive decisions, being able to know that if we make a change, we can prove causation from a business impact standpoint or a customer delight or engagement standpoint.

因此，拥有大规模数据来推动决策，能够知道如果我们做出改变，我们可以从业务影响的角度或客户满意度或参与度的角度证明因果关系。

And so, it was almost like I didn't realize I was blind until...

所以，就好像我没有意识到自己是盲人，直到......

Or you didn't realize you weren't seeing in color.

或者你没有意识到你看到的不是彩色的。

It's like that scene in The Wizard of Oz where they land on Oz, and all of a sudden, everything's in Technicolor.

这就像《绿野仙踪》中的场景，他们降落在奥兹国，突然之间，一切都变成了彩色的。

And you're like, "Oh, my gosh, I can actually make informed decisions about what I'm shipping."

你会想，“哦，天哪，我实际上可以对我要运送的东西做出明智的决定。”

Chris Miller: And having a level of rigor around that and really being forced to articulate a hypothesis and have a point of view on what the outcomes might be before you actually build something, were all sort of, I would say, behaviors and just philosophy around product discipline that I learned from Fareed and that group of folks that I worked with closely during those years.

克里斯·米勒（Chris Miller）：对此有一定程度的严格性，并且在真正构建某些东西之前确实被迫阐明一个假设并对结果可能会是什么有自己的看法，我想说的是，我从法里德和那些年与我密切合作的那群人那里学到了围绕产品纪律的行为和哲学。

And that was, I think the...

那是，我认为...

I consider that to be when I really became a product manager.

我认为那是我真正成为产品经理的时候。

Lenny: There's two things I want to highlight there that, again, super resonate.

莱尼：我想强调两件事，再次引起强烈共鸣。

One is just whenever I talk to customers, I'm like, "Why don't I do this more often?" Because every time it's like, "Wow, I had no idea how big of a problem that was.

一是每当我与客户交谈时，我都会想，“为什么我不经常这样做呢？”因为每次都会这样，“哇，我不知道这是一个多么大的问题。

Why don't I do this all the time?" And then, you don't again.

为什么我不一直这样做呢？”然后，你就不再这么做了。

And then, you do it months later and you're like, "Oh, my god, I learned so much again." And so, I think if you're listening and you're just like...

然后，几个月后你这样做了，你会想，“哦，天哪，我又学到了很多东西。”所以，我想如果你在听并且你就像......

Maybe just go talk to a customer today.

也许今天就去和客户谈谈。

Chris Miller: Talk to customers, and we also learned a lot from talking to people who we wanted to be customers but were not, right?

克里斯·米勒：与客户交谈，我们也从与那些我们想成为客户但实际上不是的人交谈中学到了很多，对吗？

And people who had either broken up with our product or evaluated it and never fell in love with it in the first place.

那些要么已经放弃我们的产品，要么评价它但从未爱上它的人。

And so, I think every PM struggles with time management and it feels like you need 60 hours in a day to get through your weekly checklist, or 60 hours in a week, excuse me.

所以，我认为每个 PM 都在时间管理上挣扎，感觉就像你每天需要 60 小时才能完成每周检查清单，或者一周需要 60 小时，对不起。

But finding time to just talk to people.

但要找时间与人交谈。

Even today, I have a lot of friends who are entrepreneurs or small business owners, and some use HubSpot, some don't.

即使在今天，我还有很多企业家或小企业主朋友，有些使用 HubSpot，有些则不使用。

But I usually tend to really enjoy my conversations with people who decided not to use HubSpot and to really try to unpack what drove that decision.

但我通常很喜欢与那些决定不使用 HubSpot 的人进行对话，并真正尝试找出推动这一决定的原因。

Chris Miller: Was it as calculated, as I think sometimes we can all maybe assume that some of these decisions are?

克里斯·米勒：这是否像我认为有时我们都可以假设其中一些决定是经过计算的那样？

And then you often learn that they're sometimes kind of emotional, really instinctual and visceral and maybe connected to brands more than they even connected to product.

然后你经常会发现，他们有时是情绪化的，真正是本能的和发自内心的，可能与品牌的联系甚至比与产品的联系还要多。

And there's a lot of things that I think when you're in the proverbial digital conference room with your team, trying to understand what makes your users tick, you're just like, "We're actually just..." We're illogical humans at the end of the day at our core, and that all rides on decisions people make in the day-to-day.

我认为，当你和你的团队一起在众所周知的数字会议室里，试图了解是什么让你的用户感兴趣时，你会想，“我们实际上只是……”归根结底，我们都是不合逻辑的人类，而这一切都取决于人们在日常中做出的决定。

And it doesn't change, necessarily, when they're engaging with your product.

当他们与你的产品互动时，它不一定会改变。

As much as we love it to be perfect science, so that we can moneyball the system, if you will.

尽管我们非常喜欢它是完美的科学，所以如果你愿意的话，我们可以通过这个系统来赚钱。

Lenny: It reminds me of a story where we were doing some user research on a booking feature with an Airbnb.

Lenny：这让我想起一个故事，我们当时正在对 Airbnb 的预订功能进行一些用户研究。

And we went to Paris to do these really in-depth user research studies.

我们去了巴黎进行这些非常深入的用户研究。

We were behind one-way mirrors and all that stuff.

我们在单向镜子之类的东西后面。

And we were trying to figure out why hosts weren't connecting Facebook to their account.

我们试图弄清楚为什么房东没有将 Facebook 连接到他们的帐户。

This is like, I don't know, five, six years ago.

这就像，我不知道，五六年前。

Because it gave them so much access to where their friends are traveling and reviews and all these things.

因为它让他们可以方便地了解朋友的旅行地点、评论以及所有这些信息。

And especially, in France, they were just like, "I don't trust Facebook." And this was before it became a big thing in the US.

尤其是在法国，他们的反应是“我不信任 Facebook”。这是在它在美国成为一件大事之前。

They're just like, "I don't trust...

他们就像是，“我不相信......

I don't want them to have any of my data." "But look at all this power you get." They're like, "No, I don't care.

我不想让他们拥有我的任何数据。”“但是看看你所获得的所有这些权力。”他们会说，“不，我不在乎。

I don't trust it." And-

我不相信它。”而且——

Chris Miller: Yeah, that's why talking to customers is so...

克里斯·米勒：是的，这就是为什么与客户交谈如此......

You could have all the usage data in the world, that's going to tell you what's actually happening in your product, but it doesn't tell you why.

您可以拥有世界上所有的使用数据，这将告诉您产品中实际发生的情况，但它不会告诉您原因。

It will never explain the why behind a behavior that you can track through events firing.

它永远不会解释您可以通过事件触发跟踪的行为背后的原因。

And so, that's why that sort of proximity to the customer and directing that sort of relentless curiosity towards the qualitative stuff is so, so important because you just learn things that are just sometimes really unintuitive or are blind spots because we're often not the people we're building product for.

因此，这就是为什么这种与客户的接近以及对定性事物的那种不懈的好奇心是如此非常重要，因为你只是学到有时非常不直观或盲点的东西，因为我们通常不是我们正在为其构建产品的人。

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

I want to shift talking about HubSpot the business, but one more last thing I wanted to highlight from what you just shared, which is a really good insight is you shared that your biggest inflection in your career was a manager, Fareed in this case, who helped you learn the craft and develop your skills, and that's the exact experience I had too.

我想把话题转移到 HubSpot 业务上，但我想从你刚才分享的内容中强调最后一件事，这是一个非常好的见解，你分享了你职业生涯中最大的转折是一名经理，在这个例子中是法里德，他帮助你学习手艺和发展你的技能，这也是我的经历。

Just one specific manager changed everything for me.

仅仅一位特定的经理就改变了我的一切。

And that feels like a recurring theme to a lot of people, just having one person that really spends the time to help you learn and correct you when you're making mistakes and all that.

对于很多人来说，这感觉就像是一个反复出现的主题，只要有一个人真正花时间帮助你学习并在你犯错误时纠正你等等。

So, if folks are wondering maybe why am I not learning enough or why is my care stagnating?

那么，如果人们想知道为什么我学得不够或者为什么我的护理停滞不前？

See if you can just find...

看看你是否能找到...

Easier said than done, but oftentimes it just takes one person to change everything.

说起来容易做起来难，但往往只需要一个人就能改变一切。

Chris Miller: It gets into sort of a conversation about the difference between a manager and a mentor, versus a sponsor and an advocate.

克里斯·米勒：这涉及到关于经理和导师、发起人和倡导者之间差异的对话。

Mentors are great, don't get me wrong.

导师们都很棒，别误会我的意思。

I have a ton of people that I would consider to be mentors, but when I think about the people in my life, who...

我有很多人被我认为是导师，但是当我想到我生命中的人时，他们......

The time that they donated to me, the time that they volunteered to me and for me, calling them mentors, I think sells what they were very short.

他们为我捐赠的时间，他们自愿为我提供帮助并为我服务的时间，称他们为导师，我认为他们的能力非常有限。

And I would actually describe those folks as being sponsors and advocates, people who were willing to put up capital, whether that's professional, social capital to bet on you.

我实际上将这些人描述为赞助商和倡导者，愿意投入资金的人，无论是专业的还是社会的资本来押注于你。

Chris Miller: I mean, truth be told, when I interviewed with Fareed that first time, I think back to the interview and I think I bombed it.

克里斯·米勒：我的意思是，说实话，当我第一次采访法里德时，我回想起那次采访，我认为我搞砸了。

I actually don't think I would've hired me back then.

事实上，我认为当时不会雇用我。

And I remember the answers I gave to some of those questions, and I think they were good, but I don't think they were certainly great.

我记得我对其中一些问题的回答，我认为它们很好，但我不认为它们一定很棒。

And I imagine that there was something in there where the decision maker, who was Fareed said, "I think I can make something out of this." And I think being willing to invest in someone and finding people who are willing to invest in you is what really matters.

我想决策者法里德说：“我想我可以从中做点什么。”我认为愿意投资某人并找到愿意投资你的人才是真正重要的。

And finding people who are willing to, again, put something up for you, whether that be whatever kind of capital it is.

再次找到愿意为你提供一些东西的人，无论那是什么类型的资本。

When I think about true gasoline on the career fire, it's finding mentors, but it's also finding sponsors and advocates.

当我想到真正的职业火力时，它是寻找导师，但它也是寻找赞助商和倡导者。

Lenny: Is there anything that you think you did right to help find mentors and sponsors and advocates for people that are thinking about, "Hey, I need this.

莱尼：您认为自己做对了哪些事情来帮助那些正在思考“嘿，我需要这个”的人找到导师、赞助商和倡导者。

How do I help myself in the same way?" Is there something you did that helped people get excited to help you?

我该如何以同样的方式帮助自己？”您所做的事情是否让人们兴奋地帮助您？

Chris Miller: Something I think I certainly continue to work on, but really, putting ego aside and embracing not knowing stuff and embracing not being good at stuff, and not feeling self-conscious about that and letting the desire to be the best at something or at least be great at something overpower the fear of being inadequate at something.

克里斯·米勒：我想我肯定会继续努力，但实际上，把自我放在一边，拥抱不知道的东西，拥抱不擅长的东西，不要对此感到不自在，让在某事上做到最好或至少在某事上表现出色的愿望压倒对某事不足的恐惧。

And I played sports growing up, and so I like being coached.

我从小就参加体育运动，所以我喜欢接受教练的指导。

I can take hard feedback, and I like it because if I get better feedback than the people I'm competing against, I think I can beat them over time if I work hard enough.

我可以接受严格的反馈，我喜欢它，因为如果我得到比我的竞争对手更好的反馈，我想如果我足够努力的话，随着时间的推移我可以击败他们。

Chris Miller: And so, I think just taking that mentality with me into product management, I think has helped me build bridges with people who don't owe me anything, right?

克里斯·米勒：所以，我认为将这种心态带入产品管理中，我认为这帮助我与那些不欠我任何东西的人建立了桥梁，对吗？

People who don't necessarily need to be invested in me at all, but who might get delight out of it somehow.

这些人根本不需要对我进行投资，但可能会以某种方式从中获得乐趣。

And I don't know exactly how that works and the calculus that goes on in folks' brains, but at least what's within my control is how I can show up in the context of those relationships and really embrace even the hardest, ugliest feedback and hope that I can extract something from it that'll make me better at the end of the day.

我不知道它到底是如何运作的，也不知道人们大脑中是如何进行计算的，但至少在我的控制范围内，我可以如何在这些关系的背景下表现出来，并真正接受最艰难、最丑陋的反馈，并希望我能从中提取一些东西，让我在一天结束时变得更好。

Lenny: I love that advice.

莱尼：我喜欢这个建议。

Makes me think about Jules Walter's advice, which I've referenced many times on this podcast now, where his tip is when people are giving you feedback, just be like, "Thank you so much for that feedback," even though you're melting inside and just completely disagree with what they're telling you.

让我想起了朱尔斯·沃尔特的建议，我现在在这个播客中已经多次引用过这个建议，他的建议是，当人们向你提供反馈时，只需说“非常感谢你的反馈”，即使你内心融化并且完全不同意他们告诉你的内容。

Chris Miller: Yeah, shout out to Jules.

克里斯·米勒：是的，向朱尔斯大声喊叫。

Jules is also someone who has been generous with me in the past in terms of giving time when I've needed help with stuff.

朱尔斯过去也对我很慷慨，当我需要帮助时，他会给予我时间。

Also, a great episode you did with Jules.

另外，你和朱尔斯一起拍的很棒的一集。

Lenny: So, many people have said what you just said about Jules, about how helpful he is been to them.

莱尼：所以，很多人都说了你刚才所说的关于朱尔斯的事情，关于他对他们有多大的帮助。

So, clearly, a class act to that guy, maybe we'll have to bring him back.

所以，显然，这对那个人来说是一种集体行为，也许我们必须把他带回来。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

V2 Jules.

V2朱尔斯。

So, let's shift to HubSpot the business, which is a pretty incredible success story.

那么，让我们把业务转向 HubSpot，这是一个非常令人难以置信的成功故事。

From what my notes, it's worth something like $30 billion now as a business.

根据我的记录，它现在的价值约为 300 亿美元。

It's been around for 17 years.

它已经存在了 17 年。

Still growing, I think, something like 30% year over year.

我认为仍在增长，年增长率约为 30%。

And most interestingly, Okta put out this really interesting report recently where they looked at their data of what tools people are using to authenticate with, and they showed that basically HubSpot is maybe the fifth fastest-growing software product in the world.

最有趣的是，Okta 最近发布了一份非常有趣的报告，他们查看了人们使用哪些工具进行身份验证的数据，结果表明 HubSpot 可能是世界上增长速度第五快的软件产品。

I don't know if it's true, but feels true because all the other companies make sense there.

我不知道这是不是真的，但感觉是真的，因为所有其他公司在那里都有意义。

So, you don't have to confirm or deny this, but clearly things are going great at HubSpot.

所以，你不必确认或否认这一点，但显然 HubSpot 的情况进展顺利。

I'm curious just what makes HubSpot so special and unique and successful that's specifically unique to HubSpot versus other companies?

我很好奇到底是什么让 HubSpot 如此特别、独特和成功，是 HubSpot 与其他公司相比的独特之处？

Chris Miller: There's a lot in there.

克里斯·米勒：里面有很多东西。

I can speak to the things that have resonated most deeply with me in my time there.

我可以谈论我在那里的时光中最能引起我共鸣的事情。

The first is legitimate customer obsession.

首先是合理的客户迷恋。

It's not marketing, it's legitimate, right?

这不是营销，这是合法的，对吗？

I've witnessed fierce and passionate debates internally that the root of what the people in the debate were really trying to unpack was what was the best thing for the customer.

我目睹了内部激烈而激烈的辩论，辩论中的人们真正试图解开的根源是什么对客户来说是最好的。

And so, really having that be central to our dogma and how we think about the business and why the company exists in the first place, really walking the walk there is something that I don't know that that's true everywhere.

因此，真正将其作为我们信条的核心，以及我们如何看待业务以及公司存在的首要原因，真正做到这一点，我不知道这在任何地方都是如此。

Chris Miller: I mean, I've certainly worked at places where that hasn't been true, and there's a lot of factors that can lead to those trade-off decisions at times.

克里斯·米勒：我的意思是，我确实在不符合事实的地方工作过，有时有很多因素可能导致做出这些权衡决定。

Like is this the right thing for the business, the right thing for the customer?

这对企业来说是正确的事情吗？对客户来说是正确的事情吗？

Being really challenging.

真的很有挑战性。

I think just sort of having that customer centricity really baked into the DNA of the company makes those decisions, maybe not easier, but at least you can have more conviction around the why behind the decision at the end of the day.

我认为，只要将以客户为中心的理念真正融入到公司的 DNA 中，就能做出这些决策，也许不会更容易，但至少你可以在一天结束时更加确信决策背后的原因。

Another thing that I think makes HubSpot-

我认为 HubSpot 的另一件事是——

Lenny: Before you actually move on to the next one, I want to spend a little time on this one because I think people hear this and they're like, "Yes, okay, we're going to be customer obsessed." And then, you have to make these hard decisions.

莱尼：在你真正开始下一个之前，我想花一点时间在这个上，因为我认为人们听到这个之后他们会说，“是的，好吧，我们将成为客户至上的人。”然后，你必须做出这些艰难的决定。

Look at this experiment, it's going to grow our revenue 1%, but it's not really going to make the customer's life easier.

看看这个实验，它会让我们的收入增长 1%，但它并不能真正让客户的生活变得更轻松。

How do you actually make this real?

你如何真正实现这一点？

And there may be an example where you have to trade off growth versus we need to make sure the customer is getting what they need or making the customer happy to make it a little more real even.

可能有一个例子，你必须权衡增长与我们需要确保客户得到他们需要的东西，或者让客户高兴地让它变得更加真实。

Chris Miller: One, I think that's a really fantastic, maybe not counterpoint, but thing to call out.

克里斯·米勒：第一，我认为这真的很棒，也许不是对位，但值得指出。

My point of view here is that oftentimes it's a function of what's the time horizon that the company uses as their sort of baseline for assessing decisions?

我的观点是，通常情况下，这取决于公司用作评估决策的基线的时间范围？

And typically, when you're making decisions that could be described as hostile towards your customers, but a net positive for the business, you're probably not thinking long-term enough, right?

通常，当您做出的决策可能对客户不利，但对业务有利时，您可能考虑得不够长远，对吧？

Because there's no possible way, unless you have completely cornered a market and there is no competition whatsoever, that you could continually be hostile towards your customers and grow, right?

因为除非你完全垄断了市场并且没有任何竞争，否则你不可能继续敌视你的客户并成长，对吗？

At some point, that's going to catch up.

在某些时候，这将会迎头赶上。

Chris Miller: And so, oftentimes I think it's the tension of what do we need to do in the short term to survive?

克里斯·米勒：所以，我常常认为，我们在短期内需要做什么才能生存，这是一个紧张的问题？

Versus long-term, where are we going?

与长期相比，我们要去哪里？

What's the path that we're actually charting?

我们实际上正在绘制的路径是什么？

Is I think the true tension.

我认为是真正的紧张。

But if you're making decisions that might have lasting impact that are customer hostile, I think that's a really dangerous path to kind of go down.

但如果你做出的决策可能会产生持久影响，并且对客户产生敌意，我认为这是一条非常危险的道路。

And so, having, I think, the discipline or the bravery or the courage, whatever, to I think focus on not necessarily tomorrow or the day after, and really think about two, three, four years from now, what are the outcomes we're trying to drive and what are the decisions we need to make in the interim that are going to lead to that outcome?

因此，我认为，拥有纪律或勇气或勇气，无论如何，我认为重点不一定是明天或后天，并真正考虑从现在起的两年、三年、四年后，我们正在努力推动的结果是什么，以及我们需要在过渡期间做出哪些决定才能实现这一结果？

If you stick to that sort of framework, or first principle is a better way to describe it, then I think you'll often end up arriving at the conclusion that doing the thing that's right for customers at the end of the day is the right decision.

如果您坚持这种框架，或者第一原则是描述它的更好方式，那么我认为您通常会最终得出这样的结论：在一天结束时做适合客户的事情是正确的决定。

Lenny: Is there something in the way you operate that helps you systemize that in your experiment plan or product specs or experiment results?

Lenny：您的操作方式中是否有某些东西可以帮助您在实验计划、产品规格或实验结果中将其系统化？

Or is there a story of something where you just shipped something that shows this customer obsession to make it even more concrete for listeners?

或者是否有一个故事，讲述了您刚刚发布的一些东西，展示了这种客户的痴迷，使其对听众来说更加具体？

Chris Miller: There's definitely structure you could put around customer centricity.

克里斯·米勒（Chris Miller）：您肯定可以围绕以客户为中心制定结构。

And I think a lot of it for growth at HubSpot and the teams that I lead, it's around forcing specificity of language.

我认为 HubSpot 和我领导的团队的成长很大程度上是围绕着强制语言的特殊性。

So, for example, you look at a lot of standard documentation for features or experiments, whatever, and one of the first things, it's like outline the problem.

因此，例如，您查看了许多有关功能或实验的标准文档，无论什么，首先要做的事情之一就是概述问题。

I don't know that we even talk about problems without a qualifier.

我不知道我们甚至在没有限定词的情况下谈论问题。

Are we talking about a business problem?

我们在谈论业务问题吗？

Are we talking about a customer problem?

我们在谈论客户问题吗？

Are we talking about an efficiency problem?

我们在谈论效率问题吗？

Describe the nature of the problem and parse it out.

描述问题的本质并分析它。

Because generally speaking, if there's a business problem, you might do the thought exercise of asking, "Well, why hasn't that problem solved itself?

因为一般来说，如果出现业务问题，您可能会进行思考练习，问：“那么，为什么这个问题没有自行解决？

What's the actual customer problem that is leading to the downstream negative thing that's happening to the business?"

导致下游业务发生负面影响的实际客户问题是什么？”

Chris Miller: And if we can actually create some daylight between those two things conceptually, we can avoid making the mistake of trying to solve a business problem in a way that leads to a bad outcome for the customer at the end of the day.

Chris Miller：如果我们实际上能够在概念上在这两件事之间创造一些阳光，我们就可以避免犯下试图解决业务问题的错误，而这种错误最终会给客户带来不好的结果。

And I think, also, creating a system that makes it easy for PMs to call out assumptions that they might be making.

我还认为，创建一个系统，使产品经理能够轻松提出他们可能做出的假设。

So, if we do this, what would you predict to be some of the sort of derivative downstream things?

那么，如果我们这样做，您预计下游的衍生产品会是什么？

And if we can call those things out and just keep asking why, why, why, to sort of justify some of the direction you want to go in and then keep asking in what, what, what, in terms of what's the sort of true blast radius and domino effect of these decisions is the approach that we take at HubSpot, in my teams at least.

如果我们能把这些事情说出来，然后不断地问为什么，为什么，为什么，以证明你想要进入的一些方向是合理的，然后不断地问什么，什么，什么，这些决定的真正爆炸半径和多米诺骨牌效应是什么，这就是我们在 HubSpot 采取的方法，至少在我的团队中是这样。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

So, I cut you off in this one bullet point so far.

所以，到目前为止，我已经在这一点上打断了你。

So, let's keep going.

那么，让我们继续吧。

Chris Miller: Yeah.

克里斯·米勒：是的。

So we're talking about the things that make HubSpot special.

所以我们正在讨论 HubSpot 的特殊之处。

So, customer obsession is definitely one.

因此，对客户的痴迷绝对是其中之一。

I think where we play in the market, too.

我认为我们也在市场中发挥作用。

Being a company that has been comfortable staying in the mid-market, SMB mid-market space, and resisting the temptation to try to crawl up into enterprise software, I think makes us special.

作为一家一直安于中端市场、中小企业中端市场领域、抵制住尝试进入企业软件领域的诱惑的公司，我认为这让我们变得与众不同。

And one of the things that's actually really straightforward, which is that a lot of enterprise software companies, a lot of your revenue is tied up in a small subset of customers.

其中一件事实际上非常简单，那就是许多企业软件公司的大部分收入都与一小部分客户相关。

And I think what can happen there is if those customers decide that they want you to build something and they're willing to threaten their business over it, then you'll end up building it.

我认为，如果这些客户决定让你建造一些东西，并且他们愿意因此威胁他们的业务，那么你最终就会建造它。

And is that necessarily the thing that is going to serve all your customers best?

这是否一定能为所有客户提供最好的服务？

Probably not.

可能不会。

Are you going to end up having to build and maintain bespoke software for one customer?

您最终是否需要为一位客户构建和维护定制软件？

Probably.

大概。

Chris Miller: And don't get me wrong, I think there's a lot of product folks out there who enjoy that modality of work, I'm not one of them.

Chris Miller：不要误会我的意思，我认为有很多产品人员喜欢这种工作方式，但我不是其中之一。

And so, by playing in the mid-market, it means our revenue is distributed more evenly across our entire install base, which means that there's no single customer who can hold us hostage, really.

因此，通过在中端市场开展业务，这意味着我们的收入在整个安装基础上的分配更加均匀，这意味着实际上没有任何一个客户可以劫持我们。

But what that does is with great power comes great responsibility.

但这样做的结果是，权力越大，责任越大。

I think what that does is the forcing function of ensuring that the decisions that we make are a net benefit for the largest swath of customers possible.

我认为这具有强制功能，确保我们做出的决策能够为尽可能多的客户带来净收益。

And I think it really is the guiding light behind some of our decisions around connected experience and usability and user experience.

我认为它确实是我们围绕互联体验、可用性和用户体验做出的一些决策背后的指路明灯。

And so, playing in the mid-market, I think affords us to be able to do that.

因此，我认为，在中端市场上开展业务使我们能够做到这一点。

So, I think that's another thing that makes us special for a company of our size.

所以，我认为这是我们对于像我们这样规模的公司来说很特别的另一件事。

Chris Miller: Culture is another one.

克里斯·米勒：文化是另一回事。

And I won't get into the culture code.

我不会讨论文化代码。

I think a lot of folks have probably read it.

我想很多人可能都读过。

If not, go check it out.

如果没有的话，就去检查一下。

Lenny: I don't know if people have heard of that.

莱尼：我不知道人们是否听说过这个。

What is that?

那是什么？

Chris Miller: Yeah.

克里斯·米勒：是的。

Dharmesh, our co-founder, one of our fearless leaders, Dharmesh, one of the things he most famously did early on is he published the HubSpot culture code externally.

Dharmesh，我们的联合创始人，我们无畏的领导者之一，Dharmesh，他早期最著名的事情之一就是他对外发布了 HubSpot 文化代码。

You can Google it and find it anywhere.

你可以用谷歌搜索并在任何地方找到它。

I think a lot of companies sort of replicated that over the years, but by being really open and transparent about the culture both internally and externally, I think one, it internally creates alignment and it gives everyone something to point to to enforce why did we choose to work with each other the way that we work with each other.

我认为多年来很多公司都在复制这一点，但我认为，通过对内部和外部的文化真正开放和透明，它可以在内部创造一致性，并为每个人提供一些可以指出的东西，以强制执行我们为什么选择彼此合作的方式。

I think it also helps in attracting the right type of candidates because we put it out there, we're sort of really open about it.

我认为这也有助于吸引合适类型的候选人，因为我们把它放在那里，我们对此非常开放。

If you don't like that culture, chances are you probably won't be super excited to work here.

如果您不喜欢这种文化，那么您可能不会对在这里工作感到非常兴奋。

But if that's something that you're craving, and I think a lot of quality people crave a lot of the things that are sort of codified in our culture.

但如果这是你所渴望的东西，我认为很多有素质的人都渴望我们文化中规定的很多东西。

Humility, empathy, adaptability, remarkability, transparency are sort of all things that I think people take quite seriously.

我认为人们非常重视谦虚、同理心、适应能力、卓越性、透明度等所有东西。

Chris Miller: And so, being really open and honest about that.

克里斯·米勒：所以，对此要非常开放和诚实。

And being willing to sort of pressure test it on a regular basis, like is this still a company we want to be?

并且愿意定期对其进行压力测试，就像这仍然是我们想要成为的公司吗？

We are growing really fast.

我们成长得非常快。

What has changed?

发生了什么变化？

What conditions are still able to be supported with the culture we have codified today?

我们今天制定的文化仍然能够支持哪些条件？

What amendments might we need to make in terms of who we want to represent ourselves to be to our customers and how do we want to work with each other?

在我们希望向客户展示自己的形象以及我们希望如何与彼此合作方面，我们可能需要做出哪些修改？

And investing in that, hiring really good people that can help us scale that I think is something that makes HubSpot really special.

在这方面进行投资，聘请真正优秀的人才来帮助我们扩大规模，我认为这让 HubSpot 变得非常特别。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I'm reading the culture code on the side here, and there's these little quotes that are really sweet.

我正在阅读旁边的文化代码，其中有一些非常可爱的小引语。

I really like this one, "Solve for the customer, not just their happiness, but also their success."

我很喜欢这句话，“为客户解决的不仅仅是他们的幸福，更是他们的成功。”

Wise.: This episode is brought to you by Merge.

Wise.：本集由 Merge 为您带来。

Every product manager knows how slow product development can get when developers have to build and maintain integrations with other platforms.

每个产品经理都知道，当开发人员必须构建和维护与其他平台的集成时，产品开发会变得多么缓慢。

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通过一个 API，您的团队可以将 180 多个 HR、会计、ATS、票务、CRM、文件存储和营销自动化集成添加到您的产品中。

You can get your first integration into production in a matter of days, and save countless weeks building custom integrations, letting you get back to building your core product.

您可以在几天内首次集成到生产中，并节省构建自定义集成的无数周时间，让您可以重新构建核心产品。

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请访问 merge.dev/lenny 开始使用，并免费集成最多三个客户。

Wise.: Is there anything really fun about the culture, like a fun thing that you all do that's a quirky HubSpot ritual?

Wise.：这种文化有什么真正有趣的事情吗？比如大家都做的一件有趣的事情，即古怪的 HubSpot 仪式？

Chris Miller: Yeah, there's a ton, but I think there's definitely a very legitimate school of thought around how culture can both contribute to inclusion, but also, be a headwind to inclusion.

克里斯·米勒：是的，有很多，但我认为肯定有一个非常合理的思想流派，围绕文化如何既有助于包容性，又成为包容性的逆风。

I think a lot of the things that I might associate with HubSpot culture are very much rooted in a specific period of HubSpot, right?

我认为很多与 HubSpot 文化相关的事物都深深植根于 HubSpot 的特定时期，对吗？

It was probably a pre-pandemic period.

那可能是大流行前的时期。

It was probably a period where we were all working in the same physical space.

这可能是我们都在同一个物理空间工作的时期。

And so, there's a lot of inside jokes.

于是，就有了很多内部笑话。

And sometimes the things are rooted in very specific quirks of specific individuals who may not even be at the company anymore.

有时，这些事情根源于特定个人的非常特定的怪癖，而这些人甚至可能已经不在公司了。

And so, if you're someone who's joined the company in the past two or three years and that flies over your head-

所以，如果你是在过去两三年内加入这家公司的人，并且这件事在你的脑海中掠过——

Chris Miller: The company in the past two or three years, and that flies over your head.

克里斯·米勒（Chris Miller）：过去两三年的公司，这超出了你的想象。

I think we have to ask ourselves, "What's the value of continuing to embrace these things?" And so I think what we've been doing over the years is taking inventory of the things that might have been considered part of HubSpot legacy culture and really trying to again, pressure test it.

我认为我们必须问自己：“继续拥抱这些东西有什么价值？”所以我认为我们多年来一直在做的就是盘点那些可能被认为是 HubSpot 传统文化一部分的东西，并真正尝试再次对其进行压力测试。

Does this continue to serve us today?

今天这对我们仍然有用吗？

And if not, we should be really comfortable of letting it go.

如果没有，我们应该很乐意放手。

Chris Miller: But one of the things that I think is super dope that we do is we do this thing called PEER Week, which was something that popped up during the pandemic and the TLDR is that it's like an event for product and engineering; where travel changed with the pandemic and people don't get to see each other in person as much, but there's a couple of weeks in the summer in June where we fly everybody in either if you're in North America, we fly you to Cambridge.

克里斯·米勒（Chris Miller）：但我认为我们所做的一件超级酷的事情是我们做了一个叫做“同行周”的事情，这是在大流行期间突然出现的事情，总而言之，它就像一个产品和工程活动；旅行随着大流行而改变，人们面对面见面的机会减少了，但在六月的夏季有几周的时间，如果您在北美，我们会带您飞往剑桥。

If you were in Europe somewhere, then we fly you to Dublin and we spend a week together.

如果您在欧洲某个地方，我们会带您飞往都柏林，我们会一起度过一周。

Chris Miller: There's not a ton of focus on just classic productivity.

克里斯·米勒（Chris Miller）：人们并没有过多关注传统的生产力。

There's a ton of focus on building connections and safety and just getting to know people and who they are as human beings, but also, damn I forgot how much I missed whiteboarding.

人们非常注重建立联系和安全，以及了解人们以及他们作为人类的身份，而且，该死的，我忘记了我是多么怀念白板。

It's actually being able to get in a room with a physical whiteboard of people and work on some stuff.

它实际上是能够进入一个有物理白板的房间并处理​​一些事情。

And so this is, I think the second year in a row, or second or third I don't remember, pandemic years have really fogged the brain...

所以，我认为连续第二年，或者我不记得的第二年或第三年，大流行年真的让大脑变得模糊......

That we've done it.

我们已经做到了。

And it's one of the things I look most forward to every year is getting everybody in the same city to just hang out.

我每年最期待的事情之一就是让同一个城市的每个人都能一起出去玩。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

I keep peeking at these highlights and they're really interesting.

我一直在关注这些亮点，它们真的很有趣。

So we're going to link to this culture code also in the show notes if you want to check it out.

因此，如果您想查看的话，我们还将在演出注释中链接到此文化代码。

But anyway, let's focus on how HubSpot grows.

但无论如何，让我们关注 HubSpot 如何发展。

And there's kind of two parts, in my mind there's just like, how did it start and what worked really well.

在我看来，有两个部分，就像是，它是如何开始的，以及什么效果非常好。

You're actually on the inaugural team, I believe, of HubSpot's growth team and things worked out.

我相信，您实际上是 HubSpot 发展团队的首个团队成员，事情进展顺利。

Well done.

干得好。

I'm curious maybe just to start what you think you did so right, early on in the history of HubSpot to help it grow into the behemoth it has become.

我很好奇，也许只是想在 HubSpot 历史的早期开始做你认为正确的事情，以帮助它成长为现在的庞然大物。

What was kind of the early success elements that were key?

早期成功的关键因素是什么？

Chris Miller: I would say the early years of doing freemium.

克里斯·米勒：我想说的是早年的免费增值业务。

And for the record, there's definitely an iteration of the growth team before I joined that, you know really like Brian Balfour was the person who I would say injected that first dose of PLG DNA into HubSpot.

郑重声明，在我加入之前，增长团队肯定经历了一次迭代，我想说的是 Brian Balfour 就是将第一剂 PLG DNA 注入 HubSpot 的人。

So shout out to Brian.

所以向布莱恩大声喊叫。

I want to make sure he gets the credit that he's owed.

我想确保他得到应得的荣誉。

Lenny: Yeah, we're going to have him on the podcast at some point.

莱尼：是的，我们会让他在某个时候出现在播客上。

It's in the works.

它正在制作中。

Chris Miller: Yeah, he's a legend.

克里斯·米勒：是的，他是一个传奇人物。

Brian's great.

布莱恩很棒。

Chris Miller: And so after Brian had left HubSpot, it was a bit start and stop.

Chris Miller：所以在 Brian 离开 HubSpot 后，事情就开始了又结束了。

And so when I joined and we sort of took another stab at it, I think there were a few things we did.

因此，当我加入时，我们又做了一些尝试，我认为我们做了一些事情。

One, in the beginning is we really had an aggressive mentality, an aggressive approach I think.

一，一开始我们确实有一种积极进取的心态，我认为是一种积极进取的方法。

And by we, I mean the team, the actual really small initial growth team.

我所说的“我们”是指团队，实际上是非常小的初始增长团队。

We tried not to be pedantic about where we were spending our time.

我们尽量不去迂腐地讨论我们把时间花在哪里。

And so we sort of tossed our mission and charter out of the window.

所以我们有点把我们的使命和章程抛到了九霄云外。

We said, cool, maybe on paper we were, I think the sales tool, activation team.

我们说，酷，也许在纸面上我们是，我认为是销售工具，激活团队。

It was a very boutique mission and remit compared to I think a lot of the other teams at HubSpot's missions and remit at the time.

与当时 HubSpot 的许多其他团队的任务和职权范围相比，这是一个非常精品的任务和职权范围。

Chris Miller: But even though that's what we were supposed to be working on paper, we were sort of like, if we find something that looks like an opportunity and no one else in the business is thinking about it, we're just going to try to fix it.

克里斯·米勒：但即使这就是我们应该在纸上进行的工作，我们有点像，如果我们发现一些看起来像是机会的东西，而业内其他人没有考虑它，我们就会尝试修复它。

We're going to ask for forgiveness rather than permission and start to call some plays.

我们将请求宽恕而不是许可，并开始召集一些比​​赛。

Chris Miller: And what that looked like was at the time, a very small percentage of, I think HubSpot's subscription revenue would be described as self-service, like people putting in their credit card and buying something.

Chris Miller：当时的情况是，我认为 HubSpot 的订阅收入中的一小部分可以被描述为自助服务，就像人们使用信用卡购买东西一样。

It was predominantly product driven leads like PQLs.

主要是产品驱动的潜在客户，例如 PQL。

And so we were literally sending everything to the sales team, which it was running revenue, but certainly opportunities for efficiency because it was the first time we'd really had a product at a price point that could be transactional and not a highly considered purchase.

因此，我们实际上将所有内容发送给销售团队，该团队正在运行收入，但当然也有提高效率的机会，因为这是我们第一次真正以可交易的价格点提供产品，而不是经过高度考虑的购买。

And so we were thinking about this and we were like, "Well, how does this work?

所以我们在思考这个问题，然后想，“嗯，这是如何运作的？

Is there even a pricing page in the product that people could actually buy something?"And we found it, but it had been neglected.

产品中是否有一个定价页面，人们可以实际购买某些东西？”我们找到了它，但它被忽视了。

It was sort of like, I think no one was sort of committing any code to that repository.

这有点像，我认为没有人向该存储库提交任何代码。

Chris Miller: So we approached a team who owned it and we were like, "Are y'all working on this?

克里斯·米勒：所以我们联系了一个拥有它的团队，我们说：“你们都在做这个吗？

Is this an active development?" And they were like, "Nah, we're working on a bunch of other stuff." We were like, "Can we take this?" And they were like, "Sure, if you want it, take it.

这是一个积极的发展吗？”他们说，“不，我们正在做很多其他的事情。”我们当时想，“我们可以接受这个吗？”他们就像，“当然，如果你想要它，就接受它。

It's one less code base for us to maintain." And so we took it and immediately blew it up.

我们需要维护的代码库就少了一个。”所以我们拿走了它并立即将其炸毁。

We redesigned the whole thing focused on discoverability, how are people getting to this page, focusing on desirability, like how are we talking about the value props of the things that we're wanting to sell to customers to help them grow better.

我们重新设计了整个事情，重点关注可发现性，人们如何到达此页面，关注愿望，比如我们如何谈论我们想要卖给客户以帮助他们更好成长的东西的价值支柱。

And then thinking about doability or usability, how do we actually just remove the friction that's standing in the way?

然后考虑可行性或可用性，我们实际上如何消除阻碍的摩擦？

Chris Miller: And so we did a mad dash towards this outcome we wanted to drive, and when we released it worked.

克里斯·米勒：所以我们疯狂地冲向我们想要实现的结果，当我们发布它时，它奏效了。

It was actually a step function change in the way that the physics of the business and the funnel really looked.

这实际上是业务和漏斗的物理原理看起来的阶跃函数变化。

And I think that was probably a catalyst moment of everyone saying, "Oh wow, there might actually be something here." And so that attitude of saying that every problem is our problem and being willing to really take a mentality of like, I think radical accountability and ownership mentality helped us find opportunities that maybe the business wasn't explicitly asking us to solve, but we were able to triangulate why it might be important for the business for us to solve it.

我认为这可能是一个催化剂时刻，每个人都会说：“哇哦，这里可能真的有东西。”因此，这种说每个问题都是我们的问题并愿意真正采取类似心态的态度，我认为激进的责任感和所有权心态帮助我们找到了机会，也许企业没有明确要求我们解决，但我们能够三角测量为什么我们解决它对企业可能很重要。

Chris Miller: And when you do that, I think the business, a business may get more comfortable putting more on your plate.

克里斯·米勒：当你这样做时，我认为企业可能会更放心地把更多的事情放在你的盘子上。

Right?

正确的？

And so it's like we look hungry, so let's keep feeding us.

所以我们看起来很饿，所以让我们继续喂我们吧。

And so over time our remit expands and there's other things that we think are opportunities to gain leverage for the business or deliver a delight to our customers in a more efficient way, and honestly in a way that they probably expected to engage with us at that point in time.

因此，随着时间的推移，我们的职权范围不断扩大，我们认为还有其他一些事情是获得业务影响力的机会，或者以更有效的方式、诚实地以他们当时可能期望与我们互动的方式为我们的客户提供快乐。

It was quite odd that there were so many humans involved in every stage of the customer journey and some of our customers just like, "I just want to be able to try the thing and buy it if I want to be.

很奇怪的是，客户旅程的每个阶段都有这么多人参与，而我们的一些客户只是想，“我只是想能够尝试一下这个东西，如果我愿意的话就可以购买。

I really don't want to be forced into a sales engagement." And so it was really kind of meeting the expectations of the modern software buyer in many ways.

我真的不想被迫从事销售工作。”因此，它在很多方面确实满足了现代软件购买者的期望。

Lenny: It sounds incredibly important.

莱尼：这听起来非常重要。

Basically your team turned HubSpot into a very product led growth business, which feels very important in the history of HubSpot's growth.

基本上，您的团队将 HubSpot 转变为一个以产品为主导的增长型企业，这在 HubSpot 的增长历史中感觉非常重要。

Would you consider what was there before where it was the beginnings of self-service, but they had to talk to a salesperson?

您是否会考虑一下以前的情况，即自助服务刚开始时，他们必须与销售人员交谈？

Would you consider that product led?

您认为该产品是主导产品吗？

Lenny: And so how would you describe what the shift was in terms of the way the sales motion and growth motion changed?

莱尼：那么您如何描述销售运动和增长运动变化方式的转变？

Chris Miller: The go-to-market motions that we were working on definitely fit under, I think the broad umbrella of PLG, but I don't think the culture of the company was necessarily explicit about being a PLG company.

Chris Miller：我认为我们正在制定的上市动议绝对符合 PLG 的广泛保护伞，但我认为公司文化不一定明确地表明自己是一家 PLG 公司。

I don't think that's the way we talked about who HubSpot was and trust me, there were a bunch of other factors in here.

我不认为这就是我们谈论 HubSpot 的方式，相信我，这里还有很多其他因素。

I definitely, I won't say that our team were the sole driving force behind that shift in our strategy and approach, but certainly the data that we were able to collect and the experiments we were able to run and the insights we were able to surface and the research we were able to synthesize...

我绝对不会说我们的团队是我们战略和方法转变背后的唯一驱动力，但我们能够收集的数据、我们能够进行的实验、我们能够提出的见解以及我们能够综合的研究......

It gave us conviction to double down on it for sure.

这让我们有信心加倍努力。

And that was definitely maybe the beginning of that inflection point for the company, but there was certainly a lot of other things that led to us wanting to become more product led.

这绝对可能是公司拐点的开始，但肯定还有很多其他事情导致我们希望变得更加以产品为主导。

Chris Miller: Again, I think about it, I think any company is probably searching for ways to operate more efficiently.

克里斯·米勒：我再说一遍，我认为任何公司都可能正在寻找更有效运营的方法。

And if your revenue is so tied to go-to-market headcount, it gets really hard to scale the bigger you get.

如果你的收入与进入市场的员工人数密切相关，那么规模越大就变得越困难。

And so I think there's an innate desire to want to be more non-linear in our growth.

所以我认为我们的成长有一种与生俱来的愿望，希望变得更加非线性。

And I think us arriving at the right place at the right time created sort of alignment around what the path forward could look like.

我认为我们在正确的时间到达正确的地点，围绕未来的道路达成了某种一致。

If we want to live in that world, how might we get there?

如果我们想生活在那个世界，我们怎样才能到达那里？

And I think that's where we really fit into the equation.

我认为这就是我们真正适合的地方。

It's like, "Oh, we invest in this team.

就像，“哦，我们投资这个团队。

If we invest in the type of work this team is doing, that's how we're going to build efficiencies over time." And it's also, we like that because it's in line with what our customers are already expecting from us.

如果我们对这个团队正在进行的工作类型进行投资，那么我们将随着时间的推移提高效率。”我们也喜欢这样，因为它符合客户对我们的期望。

Lenny: And it sounds like you weren't like, "We need to be more product led." It was more just how do we get the sales process more efficient and the motion of growth more efficient and that emerged out of that.

莱尼：听起来您并不认为“我们需要更多地以产品为主导”。更重要的是我们如何使销售流程更加高效，增长动力更加高效，而由此产生的。

Chris Miller: Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong.

克里斯·米勒：是的，我的意思是，不要误会我的意思。

We were definitely like, we need to be more product led.

我们肯定是这样的，我们需要更多以产品为主导。

And I think that's actually the nuance here.

我认为这实际上是这里的细微差别。

You asked would I consider what we were doing product led growth?

您问我会考虑我们正在做的以产品为主导的增长吗？

And I think the answer is absolutely, but that's because a fallacy that people, a lot of, I think maybe early stage founders or folks who are unfamiliar with chronic growth or maybe only know about it from an academic point of view, maybe fall into the trap of is assuming that in order to be a PLG company you can use that interchangeably with being a fully self-service business or fully self-service go-to market.

我认为答案是绝对的，但这是因为人们，很多人，我认为可能是早期创始人或不熟悉长期增长的人，或者可能只从学术角度了解它的人，可能会陷入这样的陷阱：假设为了成为一家 PLG 公司，你可以将其与完全自助服务企业或完全自助服务进入市场互换使用。

Chris Miller: I don't actually think that those things are one and the same.

克里斯·米勒：我实际上并不认为这些东西是一回事。

I think that most companies, at least the larger, more successful ones that have done amazing things and are cornering their market or category, that we would consider to be PLG companies have a bunch of humans working on really important things on their go to market, and it's more of a hybrid motion.

我认为大多数公司，至少是规模更大、更成功的公司，他们做了令人惊叹的事情，并垄断了他们的市场或类别，我们认为这些公司是 PLG 公司，在他们进入市场时，有一群人致力于真正重要的事情，这更像是一种混合运动。

And I think it's less about, again, being sort of myopic about your approach to PLG and having it being really rooted in principles that are, I think very kind of academic or conceptual in nature.

我认为这并不是关于 PLG 方法的短视，而是让它真正植根于原则，我认为这些原则本质上是非常学术或概念性的。

Chris Miller: But more sort of being pragmatic and saying, "Okay, cool.

克里斯·米勒：但更务实的是，说：“好吧，酷。

Who is our customer?

谁是我们的客户？

What is the product that we sell?

我们销售的产品是什么？

How are our customers used to buying this thing?

我们的客户如何习惯购买这个东西？

How would they prefer to buy it in the future that they would like to live in?

他们将来更愿意购买什么样的居住环境？

What's the packaging of our products?

我们的产品的包装是什么？

How do our customers decide?

我们的客户如何决定？

Is it a top down decision or a bottoms up decision?

是自上而下的决策还是自下而上的决策？

How complex are our building and subscription terms is something that's going to be pretty transactional or something that's going to be fairly considered?

我们的构建和订阅条款有多复杂，是相当交易性的还是需要公平考虑的？

How comfortable is our target market with the technology in our category?

我们的目标市场对我们类别的技术有多满意？

Are we competing against non-consumption?

我们是在与非消费竞争吗？

Are we competing against competitors in the same category?"

我们是否正在与同一类别的竞争对手竞争？”

Chris Miller: And if you actually answer those questions, and I think it may be obvious where I'm going with this, but based on the answer to those questions, the conditions on the ground might lend themselves to be more favorable to product-led growth and be more favorable to self-service, right?

克里斯·米勒：如果你真的回答这些问题，我认为我的观点可能很明显，但根据这些问题的答案，实际情况可能更有利于产品主导的增长，也更有利于自助服务，对吗？

It's why there are companies that the value prop is just so...

这就是为什么有些公司的价值支撑如此......

Like you don't need a person to sell you Loom.

就像你不需要有人向你推销 Loom 一样。

I use Loom and it's so intuitive that I can just decide on my own whether I want to buy it.

我使用 Loom，它非常直观，我可以自己决定是否要购买它。

You don't need a person to teach you how to use even Slack to some example.

你不需要有人教你如何使用 Slack 来举例。

Like Slack is extremely intuitive.

就像 Slack 一样非常直观。

Right?

正确的？

Like you could throw someone in Slack and use a product in a similar paradigm and it can probably figure out the basics on their own.

就像你可以让某人进入 Slack 并以类似的范式使用产品，它可能可以自己弄清楚基础知识。

Chris Miller: There are certain products that don't necessarily check those boxes.

克里斯·米勒：有些产品不一定符合这些条件。

And so I think what you can do is kind of take a more modular approach to PLG, and it's like based on how a customer in the best case scenario might go from zero to one when it comes to activation and onboarding, do we need to have a human involved in that process at all?

因此，我认为您可以采取一种更加模块化的 PLG 方法，就像在最佳情况下，客户在激活和入职时可能会从零到一，我们是否需要有人参与该过程？

Or as a backstop?

还是作为后盾？

If the answer is yes, then maybe figure out ways to have humans involved where your cost structure is durable or at least defensible.

如果答案是肯定的，那么也许想办法让人类参与进来，让你的成本结构是持久的或至少是可防御的。

If that's not the case, then go take a PLG approach to it.

如果情况并非如此，那么就采取 PLG 方法来解决。

Chris Miller: And so across our entire business, we've never taken a very pure, everything here for this line of business or this product line is going to be self-service without being able to defend and contextualize why across the entire customer journey this makes sense.

Chris Miller：因此，在我们的整个业务中，我们从来没有采取非常纯粹的方式，该业务线或该产品线的所有内容都将是自助服务，而无法在整个客户旅程中捍卫和说明为什么这是有意义的。

And so yeah, we have customers who come in through the product led front door and kick the tires on the product on their own and activate on the product on their own.

所以，是的，我们有客户通过产品主导的前门进来，自己踢产品的轮胎，并自己激活产品。

But then when it comes time to buy the product, they want to talk to somebody and there's legitimate reasons why, right?

但当需要购买产品时，他们想与某人交谈，这是有正当理由的，对吗？

There are maybe IT and security concerns that they need to get somebody on the phone for.

也许存在 IT 和安全问题，他们需要找人打电话解决。

Maybe they're coming for a platform where data migration is a huge fear they have, and that's not something that's easy to do in a self-service environment yet.

也许他们正在寻找一个他们非常担心数据迁移的平台，而这在自助服务环境中还不是一件容易做到的事情。

I think that's going to change over time.

我认为随着时间的推移，这种情况将会改变。

But today it's still kind of painful when you're doing rip and replaces.

但今天，当你进行拆除和替换时，仍然有点痛苦。

Chris Miller: And so to try to brute force that into a sort of self-service motion for every customer writ large would be solving for your business' desires, not necessarily solving for the customer at the end of the day.

克里斯·米勒（Chris Miller）：因此，尝试将其强制转化为针对每个客户的自助服务行动，将解决您企业的需求，而不一定最终解决客户的问题。

But we also sell into different segments of customers that are maybe digital natives but not familiar with products in our category.

但我们也向不同的客户群销售产品，这些客户可能是数字原住民，但不熟悉我们类别的产品。

And maybe they're coming from not a competing product, but they're coming from a more rudimentary system like spreadsheets.

也许它们不是来自竞争产品，而是来自电子表格等更基本的系统。

I mean, I've seen customers using post-it notes to manage their.

我的意思是，我见过客户使用便利贴来管理他们的信息。

Chris Miller: The deal pipeline, the real old school way, and that was sort of their locus of control for their sales team.

克里斯·米勒：交易渠道，真正的老派方式，这是他们对销售团队的控制点。

Right?

正确的？

Chris Miller: And so there are use cases like that if you're a smaller team, you kind of have an acute understanding of the pain points that are like today's buyers that you need to put out.

克里斯·米勒：因此，如果您是一个较小的团队，那么就会有这样的用例，您会对当今的买家的痛点有敏锐的了解，而您需要将这些痛点排除在外。

You don't have to deal with the burden of a huge data migration.

您不必承担大量数据迁移的负担。

And the person who's going to be in the CRM day in and day out is also the person who gets to make the final call on what CRM they're going to use.

日复一日使用 CRM 的人也是最终决定他们将使用什么 CRM 的人。

There's a ton of those customers that we never talk to in person, right?

有很多客户我们从未亲自交谈过，对吧？

And that's awesome too.

这也太棒了。

And so being comfortable with things not necessarily fitting into clean boxes and having conviction that a modular approach or a more hybrid approach is actually the way to optimize for the customer and the business at the end of the day is something that I think we embraced really early on.

因此，对不一定适合干净盒子的事物感到满意，并坚信模块化方法或更混合的方法实际上是优化客户和业务的方法，我认为我们很早就接受了这一点。

Chris Miller: One of the first metrics that I had was activation rate, but it was also how much demand am I sending to the sales team?

Chris Miller：我的首要指标之一是激活率，但同时也是我向销售团队发送了多少需求？

And there was no turf war about that, right?

这并不存在地盘之争，对吧？

It's like, oh, that's net positive for if people are able to get helped and a lot of the questions that they have cannot be answered with the product today, we should absolutely be proud to connect them with one of our awesome people in sales who can be like, help see if the solutions we offer are a good fit for them.

这就像，哦，如果人们能够得到帮助，并且他们遇到的很多问题无法通过今天的产品得到解答，那么我们绝对应该自豪地将他们与我们一位出色的销售人员联系起来，他们可以帮助看看我们提供的解决方案是否适合他们。

And there are instances where people just don't want to talk to somebody, and our job is to make sure that there's a friction-free way for them to make that decision on their own.

在某些情况下，人们只是不想与某人交谈，而我们的工作就是确保他们能够以一种无摩擦的方式自行做出决定。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I think on the one hand, this could be a whole podcast is just talking about your PLG learnings, knowing...

我认为一方面，这可能是一个完整的播客，只是在谈论你的 PLG 学习，知道......

It feels like HubSpot is one of the biggest success stories of transitioning more and more into PLG, at least at that point.

感觉 HubSpot 是越来越多地转向 PLG 的最大成功故事之一，至少在这一点上是这样。

Even though you're saying it was PLG early on, it feels like a huge shift to the business.

尽管你说它是早期的 PLG，但感觉就像是业务的巨大转变。

So I really like this framework you just shared of if you're trying to become more product led, just think about the zero to one from visit to activation and when does someone really have to talk to someone and how do we help them not have to talk to people in that moment?

所以我真的很喜欢你刚刚分享的这个框架，如果你想变得更加以产品为主导，只要想想从访问到激活的零到一，什么时候有人真的必须与某人交谈，我们如何帮助他们在那一刻不必与人交谈？

So either in that direction or just broadly, if someone was trying to explore how do we become more product led, what are the first couple steps and dives you would recommend they do to help them down that road?

因此，无论是在这个方向上还是在广义上，如果有人试图探索我们如何变得更加以产品为主导，您会建议他们采取哪些前几个步骤和潜水措施来帮助他们走上这条路？

Chris Miller: First I would ask, why do you want to be product led?

克里斯·米勒：首先我想问，为什么你想以产品为主导？

What assumptions are you making in terms of why being product led are going to be net positive for the business or for your customers?

对于为什么产品主导会对企业或您的客户产生净积极影响，您做出了哪些假设？

And I might even ask them to define what product-led means to them that we can get on the same page of what we're even talking about.

我什至可能会要求他们定义产品主导对他们意味着什么，以便我们能够在我们正在讨论的内容上达成一致。

Lenny: How would you define it?

莱尼：你会如何定义它？

Do you have a rough, an answer to that?

你对此有一个粗略的答案吗？

Just so people get a sense of what it probably means.

只是为了让人们了解它可能意味着什么。

Chris Miller: Yeah.

克里斯·米勒：是的。

At the highest level, it's like taking a go-to-market approach where your product job is to grow revenue and you use humans as a backstop and not the other way around.

在最高层面上，这就像采取进入市场的方法，您的产品工作是增加收入，并且您使用人类作为后盾，而不是相反。

Chris Miller: And I think the key thing is that humans can be a backstop.

克里斯·米勒：我认为关键是人类可以成为后盾。

There are moments where it's going to make sense for humans to be a backstop.

有时候，人类成为后盾是有意义的。

One example that is I think is really normal, a hardship circumstance where a customer needs to end their relationship, right?

举一个我认为很正常的例子，客户需要结束他们的关系的困难情况，对吧？

Like every SaaS company deals with this.

就像每个 SaaS 公司都会处理这个问题一样。

Some take a fully automated approach, but most usually have some sort of escalation path that will result in a human having to resolve this.

有些采用完全自动化的方法，但大多数通常都有某种升级路径，导致必须人工解决此问题。

It doesn't make them any less product led.

这并不会让他们减少产品主导。

I think every company at its core is having some humans behind the scenes interface with customers on things related to go-to-market.

我认为每家公司的核心都是有一些人在幕后与客户就与上市相关的事情进行互动。

But I think once defining that and getting on the same page about that, I think you can learn a lot.

但我认为一旦定义了这一点并就这一点达成了共识，我认为你可以学到很多东西。

And by the way, these are the normal conversations that I have with founders all the time.

顺便说一句，这些是我一直与创始人进行的正常对话。

I'm actually an operator in residence at OpenView, and so I speak to a lot of their poor , and this is usually the conversation that we end up having.

我实际上是 OpenView 的常驻操作员，所以我和他们的很多穷人进行了交谈，这通常是我们最终进行的对话。

Chris Miller: And I think what's always interesting is how different the sort of array of answers are when you ask that question.

克里斯·米勒：我认为有趣的是，当你问这个问题时，答案的排列有多么不同。

Some are like, oh, it's about top of the funnel demand.

有些人会说，哦，这是漏斗顶部的需求。

We want to be more product led because we want more leads, we want more signups.

我们希望更多地以产品为主导，因为我们想要更多的潜在客户，我们想要更多的注册。

You're like, "Oh, okay." And that's a very defensible reason.

你会说，“哦，好吧。”这是一个非常有道理的理由。

There's a lot of data that shows that freemium products attract a lot more top of the funnel demand than sales led go-to-market products do.

有大量数据表明，免费增值产品比以销售为主导的上市产品吸引了更多的漏斗顶部需求。

Right?

正确的？

Some, it might be a matter of constrained resources.

有些可能是资源有限的问题。

We absolutely need to be more product led in the stage of the company because we simply cannot hire an army of implementation specialists and folks on the customer success outside of the house to help every single customer at scale, which is generally a byproduct of having a really large top of the funnel.

我们绝对需要在公司阶段以更多的产品为主导，因为我们根本无法在公司之外雇佣一支由实施专家和客户成功人员组成的队伍来大规模地帮助每个客户，这通常是拥有一个非常大的漏斗顶部的副产品。

And then there are others that are, it's about revenue efficiency.

还有其他一些，这与收入效率有关。

Chris Miller: And so when you can kind of articulate the outcomes that you want to drive, it helps triangulate where to begin.

克里斯·米勒：因此，当你能够清楚地阐明你想要实现的结果时，它有助于三角测量从哪里开始。

So if you are really focused on top of the funnel demand, trying to do self-service checkout is a silly place to start.

因此，如果您确实专注于漏斗需求的顶部，那么尝试进行自助结账是一个愚蠢的开始。

And so just really doing the fun exercise of articulating why do you care about this?

所以，只是做一个有趣的练习，阐明你为什么关心这个？

Why are you actually interested in this in the first place?

首先你为什么对此感兴趣？

If you do this, what would change about your business?

如果您这样做，您的业务会发生什么变化？

What assumptions are you making?

你做出什么假设？

And when you can actually list those things out, you can map them to parts of the customer journey where there may be opportunity to be more product led if the company isn't there yet.

当你真正能够列出这些事情时，你可以将它们映射到客户旅程的各个部分，如果公司还没有这样做，那么可能有机会以更多的产品为主导。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Maybe a couple more questions along these lines and then I just have a couple more questions I definitely want to ask.

也许还有几个类似的问题，然后我还有几个我确实想问的问题。

When someone is trying to go in the direction of product led growth, A.K.A.

当有人试图朝着产品主导增长的方向前进时，A.K.A.

more self-service, and I guess maybe let me just ask, is that sort of how you think about the equivalency of those two?

更多的自助服务，我想也许让我问一下，您是如何看待这两者的等价性的？

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

What are maybe the most common mistakes they make that aren't as obvious?

他们最常犯但不那么明显的错误是什么？

Chris Miller: I mean, the number one mistake is hiring a head of growth, giving them no resources and expecting them to pull rabbit out of their hat.

克里斯·米勒：我的意思是，第一个错误是聘请了一位增长主管，没有给他们任何资源，并期望他们能变出兔子来。

Chris Miller: I feel like every PLG veteran has some joke that they tell about the poor head of growth who has no tooling, no engineering cycles, no designer, no access to data, and then are handed a really scary big number and told to go move it.

Chris Miller：我觉得每个 PLG 资深人士都有一个笑话，他们讲述的是可怜的增长主管，没有工具，没有工程周期，没有设计师，无法访问数据，然后收到一个非常可怕的大数字并被告知要移动它。

I think that's a common mistake that has stood the test of time.

我认为这是一个经受住了时间考验的常见错误。

Chris Miller: Another one is expecting really quick turnaround and thinking of it the same way you might think about hiring a sales, an incremental sales headcount, which is that you're expecting near term liquidity from that investment, but when you're doing PLG at its core, it's still R&D.

Chris Miller：另一个期望是快速周转，就像你考虑雇用销售人员一样，增加销售人员，即你期望从该投资中获得短期流动性，但当你以 PLG 为核心时，它仍然是研发。

You're still sort of planting seeds with the hope that over time this is going to play out in the form of durable pie efficient growth.

你仍然在种下种子，希望随着时间的推移，这会以持久有效增长的形式发挥作用。

But if you're expecting, you put a team on something and then you want that team to sort of have outsize impact, and sure there's going to be low hanging fruit, but I think just not having the patience to see the investment through and cutting bait too early is another, I think mistake some companies make.

但如果你期望，你派了一个团队去做某件事，然后你希望这个团队能产生巨大的影响，并且肯定会有唾手可得的成果，但我认为，没有耐心看到投资并过早地切断诱饵是另一个错误，我认为一些公司会犯这样的错误。

Chris Miller: And then I also think that bad data hygiene is the other one.

克里斯·米勒：我还认为糟糕的数据卫生是另一个问题。

So not having taken a beat to properly instrument their product, messy data, no real self-service way for people to access that data.

因此，他们没有花时间正确地检测他们的产品，数据混乱，人们没有真正的自助服务方式来访问这些数据。

Like having analyst bottlenecks can be a terrible position to be in.

就像分析师遇到瓶颈可能是一个糟糕的处境一样。

And so eating your veggies, getting your house in order from a data standpoint, I think is a crucial first step because if you can't actually measure what's happening, then like why?

因此，从数据的角度来看，吃蔬菜、让你的房子井井有条，我认为这是至关重要的第一步，因为如果你无法真正衡量正在发生的事情，那么为什么呢？

Chris Miller: And then maybe the last one is people giving up because they don't have enough data, right?

克里斯·米勒：最后一个可能是人们因为没有足够的数据而放弃，对吗？

They're like, we can't do PLG because we don't have this massive data set the way that HubSpot has or the way the Airbnb has.

他们说，我们不能做 PLG，因为我们没有 HubSpot 或 Airbnb 那样的海量数据集。

And it's like you can still do PLG, you just need to use different data.

就像你仍然可以做 PLG，你只需要使用不同的数据。

The way we think about data is that quant data is just another form of data.

我们看待数据的方式是，量化数据只是数据的另一种形式。

The same way experiment results are just another data point.

同样，实验结果只是另一个数据点。

You can learn a ton from just talking to customers.

通过与客户交谈，您可以学到很多东西。

Like qual research is super-duper important, and so if you don't have data to tell you exactly what every single person is doing in your product in aggregate, you can still talk to 10 customers and probably get a clear sense of what's happening and why it's happening.

就像质量研究非常重要一样，因此，如果您没有数据来准确地告诉您每个人在您的产品中总体上做了什么，您仍然可以与 10 个客户交谈，并且可能清楚地了解正在发生的事情以及发生的原因。

That you wouldn't even get from the quant data.

你甚至无法从定量数据中得到这一点。

Chris Miller: So people getting demotivated or companies getting demotivated because they think they're too early to do PLG, you can still do PLG.

Chris Miller：因此，人们或公司会因为认为实施 PLG 为时过早而失去动力，但你仍然可以进行 PLG。

PLG at its core is just having your product sell the value prop of what your business does, and you can still deliver on that without being able to stand up a very robust and sophisticated experimentation practice.

PLG 的核心只是让您的产品销售您业务的价值支柱，并且您仍然可以实现这一点，而无需进行非常强大和复杂的实验实践。

Lenny: Kind of along those lines, but going even broader.

莱尼：有点类似，但范围更广。

Without disclosing trade secrets of how HubSpot works, how would you describe the loop of growth of HubSpot?

在不透露 HubSpot 如何运作的商业秘密的情况下，您会如何描述 HubSpot 的增长循环？

In the words of, you mentioned Brian Belfor and Fareed, what is the growth loop of HubSpot either now or recently?

用你提到的 Brian Belfor 和 Fareed 的话说，HubSpot 现在或最近的增长循环是怎样的？

Just a simple way to think about how HubSpot grows.

这是一个思考 HubSpot 如何发展的简单方法。

Chris Miller: Our loops are less tactical.

Chris Miller：我们的循环不太具有战术性。

In fact, if I'm being brutally honest, I think loops are kind of hard to achieve in B2B SaaS.

事实上，老实说，我认为循环在 B2B SaaS 中很难实现。

I think there's some examples of that, but I think some of the best loops come from UGC, user generated content.

我认为有一些例子，但我认为一些最好的循环来自 UGC，即用户生成的内容。

I think a lot of B2C community focused platforms can do loops really well.

我认为很多以 B2C 社区为中心的平台都可以很好地实现循环。

I think if it's B2B SaaS, it's hard to find things that get loopy.

我认为如果是 B2B SaaS，就很难找到变得疯狂的东西。

And it is me going, I think all my Reforge are going to be upset that I said that.

轮到我了，我想我所有的重铸者都会因为我这么说而感到不安。

But I think that's the truth.

但我认为这是事实。

Chris Miller: When I think about the flywheel of HubSpot, I think it's more of a macro flywheel.

Chris Miller：当我想到 HubSpot 的飞轮时，我认为它更像是一个宏观飞轮。

And just to kind of lean into our own lingo, it's really attracting gage and delight.

就我们自己的行话而言，它确实很吸引人，也很令人高兴。

And so, one of the principles that guides our thinking and our strategy is give value before you extract value.

因此，指导我们的思维和战略的原则之一是在提取价值之前提供价值。

And I think that was at the core...

我认为这是核心......

Chris Miller: Give value before you extract value, and I think that was at the core of inbound marketing at its inception, that outbound marketing was asking for something from customers or prospects before giving anything.

克里斯·米勒（Chris Miller）：在提取价值之前先给予价值，我认为这是入站营销一开始的核心，出站营销是在给予任何东西之前向客户或潜在客户索要一些东西。

And so at its core it's like, okay, yeah, if you give a little for free, people who are interested in sort of hearing the rest of how that album sounds are going to come and stick around for more.

所以从本质上来说，好吧，是的，如果你免费提供一点，那些有兴趣听听这张专辑的其余部分的人将会过来并留下来获得更多。

And so in our pre PLG days, it was content marketing and white papers and listicles and eBooks and things that people had to download that were really filling the top of the funnel.

因此，在 PLG 之前的日子里，内容营销、白皮书、列表文章、电子书以及人们必须下载的东西真正填充了漏斗的顶部。

And that is just taking another form with PLG.

这只是 PLG 采取的另一种形式。

Chris Miller: And so we intentionally put out a lot of free software.

克里斯·米勒：所以我们有意推出了很多免费软件。

And the idea is that this software is not sort of gimmicky.

我们的想法是，这个软件并不是什么花招。

It's not designed to run out of value on day one.

它的设计初衷是不会在第一天就失去价值。

It's actually designed so that our smallest customers can get some value out of it in a sustainable way.

它实际上是为了让我们最小的客户能够以可持续的方式从中获得一些价值而设计的。

But if they're engaging with it deeply enough, they're going to run into the limits of what that value is.

但如果他们足够深入地参与其中，他们就会遇到这个价值的极限。

And if we've done our jobs and delivered what we believe we were supposed to deliver, then the decision to purchase becomes a no-brainer.

如果我们完成了我们的工作并交付了我们认为应该交付的东西，那么购买的决定就变得不费吹灰之力。

Chris Miller: And if they're delighted with the experience of being a customer, they're going to become advocates, and they're going to become promoters, and they're going to tell their peers.

克里斯·米勒：如果他们对成为客户的体验感到满意，他们就会成为倡导者，他们将成为推动者，他们会告诉他们的同行。

Because what we also know is that a lot of small business owners and even medium-sized business owners take a lot of guidance from their community of peers.

因为我们还知道，许多小企业主甚至中型企业主从同行社区获得了大量指导。

And sometimes that's a digital community, sometimes that's not.

有时这是一个数字社区，有时则不是。

And so anytime we win an advocate through delivering an excellent customer experience, they bring more people into the top of the funnel.

因此，每当我们通过提供卓越的客户体验赢得拥护者时，他们都会将更多的人带入渠道的顶部。

And so it's a really honest, and I would say an honest macro loop in the sense, but that's the way we think about our flywheel.

所以这是一个非常诚实的，我想说的是，从某种意义上说，这是一个诚实的宏观循环，但这就是我们思考飞轮的方式。

Lenny: Oh man, this could be a whole other hour of a podcast just diving into this stuff.

莱尼：天哪，这可能是播客的一个小时，只是深入研究这些东西。

This is so good.

这太好了。

You shared this interesting story that I wasn't aware of.

你分享了这个我不知道的有趣故事。

So HubSpot's kind of known for content and SEO.

因此 HubSpot 以内容和 SEO 闻名。

You search for anything and there's always a HubSpot article about it.

您搜索任何内容，总会有一篇 HubSpot 文章与之相关。

And so is what you're sharing here, essentially that was a big part of the early days, SEO, free content that drove people to the site and the product wasn't free, is what I'm hearing.

你在这里分享的内容也是如此，本质上这是早期搜索引擎优化的重要组成部分，免费内容驱使人们访问该网站，而产品不是免费的，这就是我所听到的。

And then it shifted to now it's a free product that anyone can use and that's what drives the top of funnel.

然后它变成了现在的免费产品，任何人都可以使用，这就是推动漏斗顶部的原因。

Chris Miller: I can't give a specific number, but a large percentage of our revenue flows through the product.

克里斯·米勒：我无法给出具体数字，但我们收入的很大一部分来自于该产品。

And it's not necessarily maybe where people ultimately purchased, but that's their sort of first conversion event with us.

这不一定是人们最终购买的地方，但这是他们与我们的第一次转化活动。

They were in the product, they liked what they saw, they spoke to somebody, and then eventually became a customer.

他们在产品中，他们喜欢他们所看到的，他们与某人交谈，然后最终成为客户。

And that is now a pretty robust top of the funnel for the company.

现在，这已成为该公司相当稳健的漏斗顶部。

Lenny: So I think this is a really interesting story of just starting with one growth channel of SEO essentially, content marketing and then shifting to something else.

Lenny：所以我认为这是一个非常有趣的故事，本质上是从 SEO 的一个增长渠道开始，即内容营销，然后转向其他渠道。

Is there any lessons from that experience for people trying to kickstart their growth of SEO versus this freemium approach?

对于那些试图启动 SEO 增长的人来说，与这种免费增值方法相比，这次经历有什么教训吗？

Is there anything there that just like this worked really well for us and you should probably try this, or SEO kind of runs out in this specific type of business?

有没有什么东西对我们来说非常有效，你应该尝试一下，或者 SEO 在这种特定类型的业务中已经用完了？

Chris Miller: I'll admit I'm definitely not an SEO expert.

Chris Miller：我承认我绝对不是 SEO 专家。

I've been fortunate to work with some of the best marketers in the world who I think are bonafide legends at this point in terms of what they've been able to achieve at HubSpot and building that lead and signup machine.

我很幸运能与世界上一些最优秀的营销人员合作，我认为他们在 HubSpot 所取得的成就以及建立领先和注册机器方面都是真正的传奇人物。

Chris Miller: What I will say is being really aggressive about experimenting with new channels is so important, and diversifying your channel mix is so important because things can change overnight and that might disrupt your entire funnel.

克里斯·米勒：我要说的是，积极尝试新渠道非常重要，渠道组合多元化也非常重要，因为事情可能会在一夜之间发生变化，这可能会扰乱您的整个渠道。

Like a Google algorithm change can have a massive impact.

就像谷歌算法的改变会产生巨大的影响。

If you're reliant on app store optimization, a change in Apple's algorithm might have a massive impact.

如果您依赖应用商店优化，Apple 算法的更改可能会产生巨大影响。

What we're seeing with generative AI, I think there's a lot of people losing sleep at night because it's unclear how this is going to impact SEO writ large.

我们在生成式人工智能中看到的情况，我认为有很多人在晚上失眠，因为尚不清楚这将如何影响 SEO。

If that's what fuels your entire business is being on Google search result page, then what's going to happen in this new sort of world we're about to enter?

如果这就是您整个业务出现在 Google 搜索结果页面上的动力，那么在我们即将进入的这个新世界中将会发生什么？

Chris Miller: And so I think to the extent that you can not have your funnel be relying on a single or a couple of channels is really important.

克里斯·米勒：所以我认为，在某种程度上，你不能让你的渠道依赖于一个或几个渠道，这一点非常重要。

We're always testing new channels.

我们一直在测试新渠道。

One of the channels that we're spending some time experimenting with is this concept of microapps.

我们花一些时间尝试的渠道之一是微应用的概念。

And it's actually not a new concept for HubSpot.

对于 HubSpot 来说，这实际上并不是一个新概念。

One of the first microapps you ever built was a...

您构建的第一个微应用程序之一是...

Maybe Dharmesh built this, the original one, but it was called Website Grader.

也许 Dharmesh 构建了这个，最初的那个，但它被称为 Website Grader。

And it was you put in your domain, and it crawled your site, and then gave you a set of recommendations for how you would optimize your site.

当您输入域时，它会抓取您的网站，然后为您提供一组有关如何优化网站的建议。

And it was free.

而且它是免费的。

It was definitely a one trick pony.

这绝对是一匹只会耍花招的小马。

But what it did was it created an interesting conversation, which is like, okay, cool, now that you have this information, what are you going to do about it?

但它所做的是创造了一场有趣的对话，就像，好吧，很酷，既然你有了这些信息，你打算做什么呢？

And one of the things you could do is you could become a HubSpot customer and you can use our product to fix a lot of this stuff.

您可以做的一件事是您可以成为 HubSpot 客户，您可以使用我们的产品来修复很多此类问题。

Chris Miller: And that worked for us.

克里斯·米勒：这对我们有用。

It worked really, really well.

效果真的非常好。

And so we've done that play a few times and it's something that we'll probably continue to do.

所以我们已经玩过几次这样的游戏，而且我们可能会继续这样做。

We have a bunch of these microapps.

我们有很多这样的微应用。

We have a brand kit generator, we have an email signature generator.

我们有一个品牌套件生成器，我们有一个电子邮件签名生成器。

We've experimented with a Build My Persona generator.

我们已经尝试过“构建我的角色”生成器。

There's a couple of ones that I can't talk about right now, but we'll learn a little bit about in a few weeks at Inbound.

有几个我现在不能谈论的问题，但几周后我们将在 Inbound 上了解一些。

But yeah, microapps are an exciting new channel for us.

但是，是的，微应用对我们来说是一个令人兴奋的新渠道。

And some will be successes, some will flop, and we'll probably sunset them.

有些会成功，有些会失败，我们可能会淘汰它们。

But being willing to fail in the pursuit of finding new distribution channels is also really important.

但在寻找新的分销渠道的过程中愿意失败也非常重要。

Lenny: That's an awesome insight.

莱尼：这是一个很棒的见解。

Is there a place people can go to find these microapps that you all have built?

人们可以在哪里找到你们构建的这些微应用程序吗？

Lenny: Oh, mysterious.

莱尼：哦，神秘。

I also noticed Dharmesh tweeting about some AI projects he's working on.

我还注意到 Dharmesh 在推特上介绍了他正在从事的一些人工智能项目。

Is that related to these microapps?

这与这些微应用有关吗？

Or is that just him on his own time just doing fun stuff?

或者只是他在自己的时间里做一些有趣的事情？

Chris Miller: Very related to microapps.

Chris Miller：与微应用非常相关。

I would say ChatSpot is actually, and for those who don't know what ChatSpot is, ChatSpot is a bit of an AI copilot that Dharmesh built that has sort of been very positively received by both HubSpot customers and non-HubSpot customers alike.

我想说的是，ChatSpot 实际上是，对于那些不知道 ChatSpot 是什么的人来说，ChatSpot 有点像 Dharmesh 构建的人工智能副驾驶，受到 HubSpot 客户和非 HubSpot 客户的一致好评。

And so that's something that we're, wearing my AI hat, spending a lot of time thinking about, sort of what direction do we want to go in the ChatSpot.

因此，我们戴着人工智能帽子，花了很多时间思考，我们想在 ChatSpot 中走向什么方向。

Chris Miller: But again, it was something that we put out in the universe to see what happens.

克里斯·米勒：但同样，我们把它放在宇宙中，看看会发生什么。

And now it's like, oh, we're getting an interesting amount of signups every month.

现在，哦，我们每个月都会收到大量注册用户。

Who would've guessed that?

谁会想到呢？

I don't think that...

我不认为...

That definitely wasn't on the roadmap a year ago.

一年前这绝对不在路线图上。

And I think being a 17-year-old SaaS company that can still operate with that sense of urgency and pace helps a lot to why wait to get consensus on a decision when we can put something out there and then see what happens and see what the data says.

我认为，作为一家拥有 17 年历史的 SaaS 公司，仍然能够以这种紧迫感和节奏运营，这有助于我们在可以推出一些东西，然后看看会发生什么并看看数据表明什么的情况下，为什么要等待就决策达成共识。

Lenny: Yeah, I was just going to say that it feels like it's such a win-win-win, including it's just a release for people on the team that have been there for a long time just to work on something totally different and new and just launch a new product.

Lenny：是的，我只是想说，这感觉就像是一个三赢，包括它只是为团队中的人们提供的一个版本，他们已经在那里工作了很长时间，只是为了开发一些完全不同的新东西，并推出一个新产品。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

Is there anything that just significantly accelerated growth in the last, I don't know, number of years that was like, wow, this really changed the game.

在过去的几年里，有什么东西显着加速了增长，我不知道，就像，哇，这真的改变了游戏规则。

Chris Miller: Covid.

克里斯·米勒：新冠病毒。

Covid was obviously challenging and awful on so many levels, but it was scary.

新冠疫情显然在很多层面上都具有挑战性和可怕性，但它也很可怕。

It was super scary.

太可怕了。

We were all terrified.

我们都很害怕。

We didn't know what it meant for our jobs.

我们不知道这对我们的工作意味着什么。

My own sister, who also works at HubSpot now, she at the time was transitioning into hospitality and was two months into her job when she got furloughed because of Covid.

我自己的妹妹现在也在 HubSpot 工作，当时她正在转向酒店业，入职两个月后，她因为新冠病毒而暂时休假。

So who knew what the world was going to look like and how it was going to impact businesses?

那么谁知道世界会是什么样子以及它将如何影响企业呢？

Chris Miller: I think we were prepared for the worst, and we actually caught a bit of the Covid tailwind and a lot of other businesses did, because companies who never had to think about digital marketing all of a sudden had to, and it was urgent.

克里斯·米勒（Chris Miller）：我认为我们已经做好了最坏的打算，我们实际上抓住了一些新冠疫情的顺风车，许多其他企业也这样做了，因为那些从来不需要考虑数字营销的公司突然不得不考虑，而且这是紧迫的。

It was a burning need for them to figure out how they were going to weather the storm.

他们迫切需要弄清楚如何度过这场风暴。

And I think one of the things that HubSpot did, and this is one of the sort of phrases we use internally, is never waste a good crisis.

我认为 HubSpot 所做的事情之一，也是我们内部使用的短语之一，就是永远不要浪费一场好的危机。

Chris Miller: And so, one of the things we leaned into was sort of goodwill pricing, and we lowered the price on some of our tools and created some temporary leniency around certain things.

克里斯·米勒：所以，我们倾向于的事情之一是善意定价，我们降低了一些工具的价格，并对某些事情实行了一些暂时的宽大处理。

And just the removal of that friction ended up being a really interesting tailwind for the business and specifically for the business that I run, which is our starter business, our free and starter business, we really accelerated growth during that period, which was not...

消除这种摩擦最终成为业务的一个非常有趣的顺风，特别是对于我经营的业务，这是我们的起步业务，我们的免费和起步业务，我们在那段时间确实加速了增长，这不是......

I think if you would've looked at my Bingo card in March of 2020, I don't know that I had that on the Bingo card.

我想如果你在 2020 年 3 月查看我的宾果卡，我不知道我的宾果卡上有这个。

Lenny: I'm looking at the stock price in another window here and I could see what happened.

莱尼：我正在另一个窗口中查看股票价格，我可以看到发生了什么。

That went great, and even it came down with the whole market, but it's coming right back up.

进展顺利，甚至整个市场都下跌了，但很快又回升了。

With that, we reached our very exciting lightning round.

就这样，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

I've got six questions for you.

我有六个问题要问你。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

莱尼：你向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Chris Miller: Truthfully, I don't read a ton of books.

克里斯·米勒：说实话，我读的书不多。

Got a one and a half year old.

已经一岁半了。

I also probably didn't read a ton of books before, but it's a nice excuse to have.

我以前可能也没有读过很多书，但这是一个很好的借口。

That's why I don't have time to read today.

这就是为什么我今天没有时间读书。

But when I think of books that I think about a lot still, there's a book called Everybody Lies, and it's a book...

但当我想到我仍然经常思考的书时，有一本叫做《每个人都在撒谎》的书，这是一本书......

I believe the guy who wrote it was a data scientist at Google.

我相信写这篇文章的人是谷歌的一名数据科学家。

And part of the message is that everybody's a data scientist and really trying to democratize the idea of using data in your everyday lives to make decisions and demystifying the idea of data science.

其中的一部分信息是，每个人都是数据科学家，并且真正试图使在日常生活中使用数据来做出决策的想法民主化，并揭开数据科学理念的神秘面纱。

But the way he kind of does this is through comparing Google search data and what we know people to be actively looking for answers for, with sort of qualitative survey data.

但他这样做的方式是通过比较谷歌搜索数据和我们知道人们正在积极寻找答案的数据，以及某种定性调查数据。

And people lie on surveys all the time for a variety of different reasons, but no one lies to Google because it's transactional.

人们总是出于各种不同的原因在调查中撒谎，但没有人对谷歌撒谎，因为它是交易性的。

If I lie to Google, I'm not going to get what I want.

如果我对谷歌撒谎，我就不会得到我想要的东西。

And so it kind of really explores what it means to tell the truth and how honest we are with ourselves and with the internet.

因此，它真正探讨了说实话意味着什么，以及我们对自己和互联网的诚实程度。

And so I really love that book.

所以我真的很喜欢那本书。

Chris Miller: The other book I really love is Chop Wood Carry Water, which it's like a parable about a young boy who wants to become a samurai.

克里斯·米勒：我真正喜欢的另一本书是《砍柴运水》，这就像一个关于一个想成为武士的小男孩的寓言。

But the sort of message of the book is about falling in love with the process, especially the most mundane parts of a process of becoming great at something.

但这本书传达的信息是爱上这个过程，尤其是在某件事上变得伟大的过程中最平凡的部分。

And that's something I...

这就是我...

It's a good reminder about patience, humility, and sort of taking things one step at a time.

这是一个很好的提醒，提醒我们要有耐心、谦虚，以及一步一步地做事。

And I often reference Chop Wood Carry Water a lot.

我经常提到砍柴挑水。

Lenny: Reminds me of The Score Takes Care of Itself, I think is the name of the book.

莱尼：让我想起了《乐谱自理》，我想这就是这本书的名字。

Lenny: Bill Walsh.

莱尼：比尔·沃尔什。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Okay.

好的。

What's a favorite recent movie or TV show?

最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Chris Miller: Oh, man.

克里斯·米勒：哦，伙计。

On Amazon Prime, I'm a Virgo, and it's a Boots Riley show.

在亚马逊 Prime 上，我是处女座，这是 Boots Riley 的节目。

Boots Riley directed Sorry to Bother You.

布茨·莱利执导《抱歉打扰》。

It just blew my mind.

这让我大吃一惊。

It's super surreal and funny and dark and it stars Jharrel Jerome, who I think he played one of the characters in the Netflix Central Park Five.

这是一部超级超现实、有趣又黑暗的电影，由贾雷尔·杰罗姆主演，我认为他扮演了 Netflix 中央公园五人组中的角色之一。

I think he won a couple of awards for that too.

我认为他也因此赢得了一些奖项。

And that was a show I watched recently where I had no expectations going into it other than I knew it was a Boots Riley show and was just enthralled.

这是我最近观看的一个节目，除了我知道这是 Boots Riley 的节目并且被迷住之外，我对它没有任何期望。

It touches on...

它涉及...

It is a really cheeky way of touching on a lot of really important topics, but often hard to talk about topics and themes, and it's kind of delightful to get through it.

这是一种非常厚颜无耻的方式来触及很多非常重要的话题，但通常很难谈论话题和主题，但通过它是一种令人愉快的方式。

So, I'm a Virgo.

所以，我是处女座。

I just binged Barry from season one through four.

从第一季到第四季我都在狂吃巴里。

Henry Winkler was spectacular.

亨利·温克勒的表现非常出色。

And then just came off of Succession, too.

然后也刚刚结束继承。

The theme here is I really dark comedies.

这里的主题是我真的很黑暗的喜剧。

Yeah, really, really dark comedies are kind of my thing.

是的，真的，非常非常黑暗的喜剧是我的风格。

Lenny: And that first one was called I Am a Virgo, because I thought you were just saying you're a Virgo.

莱尼：第一个叫做“我是处女座”，因为我以为你只是说你是处女座。

Chris Miller: No, no. The name of the show is called I'm a Virgo.

克里斯·米勒：不，不。这部剧的名字叫《我是处女座》。

Yeah.

是的。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I will check that out.

我会检查一下。

Okay.

好的。

What's a favorite interview question you like to ask candidates?

您最喜欢问应聘者的面试问题是什么？

Chris Miller: I think it depends on what level of role that they're interviewing for.

克里斯·米勒：我认为这取决于他们面试的职位级别。

I don't really interview as many frontline PMs anymore, but I used to really like doing case study questions and really random ones too.

我不再采访那么多一线产品经理了，但我曾经非常喜欢做案例研究问题和非常随机的问题。

I'd be like, "Tell me how many people crossed the Longfellow Bridge in a week." And I could not care less what the actual number they arrived at was, but it's more for me to observe what's the array of data points that they can kind of start to collect in their mind to inform their calculus, and how close can they get to ballpark, and what's their defense behind their thinking.

我会说，“告诉我一周内有多少人穿过朗费罗桥。”我不在乎他们得出的实际数字是多少，但对我来说更重要的是观察他们可以开始在脑海中收集哪些数据点数组以告知他们的微积分，以及他们离大致目标有多近，以及他们的想法背后的防守是什么。

And then just the process of watching people's brains move in those moments is...

然后观察人们的大脑在那些时刻移动的过程就是……

You learn a lot about how they might operate as a product manager I think in those scenarios.

我认为在这些情况下，你会学到很多关于他们作为产品经理如何运作的知识。

I try not to overdo them, because I do think there's a lot of inherent bias in some of those types of questions.

我尽量不要做过头，因为我确实认为其中一些类型的问题存在很多固有的偏见。

And so trying to think of things that are really relatable to anybody who might be looking to work on a team that I'm leading is I think a requirement there.

因此，我认为，尝试思考与任何可能希望在我领导的团队中工作的人真正相关的事情是一项要求。

Chris Miller: But I would say the other question I really like to ask is, if the people that you most recently worked with were in a room and you weren't there, how would they talk about you?

克里斯·米勒：但我想说的是，我真正想问的另一个问题是，如果你最近共事的人在一个房间里而你不在场，他们会如何谈论你？

One, it's because sometimes I will reach out and get references, and so the extent to which that might actually be part of the interview process is very legitimate, but also I think it is usually very clear whether the person is taking an honest and introspective and self-aware approach to answering that question.

第一，因为有时我会联系并获得推荐信，所以这实际上可能成为面试过程的一部分是非常合理的，而且我认为通常很清楚这个人是否采取诚实、内省和自我意识的方式来回答这个问题。

And I like to see people being really self-aware, because I don't think anybody ever comes in any situation perfect.

我喜欢看到人们真正有自我意识，因为我认为没有人在任何情况下都是完美的。

I have a lot of rough edges to my personality that I think people have just learned to deal with over the years, but I try to be self-aware about them at the...

我的性格有很多粗糙的地方，我认为人们多年来刚刚学会处理这些问题，但我试着在...

If I can do nothing else, if I can't change them, at least recognize them and do what I can to mitigate the blast radius.

如果我无能为力，如果我无法改变它们，至少要认识到它们并尽我所能来减轻爆炸半径。

Chris Miller: And so I think just getting a sense of the EQ of a candidate and their self-awareness is really important for me because at the end of the day, if you're in product, you can be the smartest person in the room, but if people don't want to work with you, you're probably not going to go very far.

克里斯·米勒：所以我认为了解候选人的情商和他们的自我意识对我来说非常重要，因为归根结底，如果你从事产品工作，你可以成为房间里最聪明的人，但如果人们不想和你一起工作，你可能不会走得太远。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite life motto that you come back to or you share with other people?

莱尼：你有没有最喜欢的人生格言，并与其他人分享？

Lenny: And that's both in work and life, I imagine?

莱尼：我想这在工作和生活中都是如此？

Chris Miller: Yeah, the details matter.

克里斯·米勒：是的，细节很重要。

The details matter.

细节很重要。

I read a cool interview with the product leadership team at Stripe, and one of the things they talk about is for their product managers, they want you to have taste.

我读过一篇对 Stripe 产品领导团队的很酷的采访，他们谈论的一件事是对他们的产品经理来说，他们希望你有品味。

And it was a really kind of controversial thing to say because it was like, "Oh, that is so subjective.

这确实是一件有争议的事情，因为它就像是，“哦，那太主观了。

Who gets to decide what taste is?" Maybe that's even biased to some extent.

谁来决定什么是味道？”也许这在某种程度上甚至是有偏见的。

Chris Miller: And I think they had a super defensible answer about how they define taste, and taste in their opinion was to be so interested in something, it doesn't matter what that thing is, where you can go deep enough in it to have a strong set of informed opinions.

克里斯·米勒：我认为他们对于如何定义品味有一个超级站得住脚的答案，在他们看来，品味就是对某件事非常感兴趣，无论那件事是什么，你可以深入其中以获得一套强有力的知情意见。

And that's how they defined it.

他们就是这样定义的。

And they were almost ambivalent to what that thing that was, what the subject was.

他们对于那个东西是什么、主题是什么几乎是矛盾的。

But having taste, having something that you were passionate about, that you have spent enough time learning and understanding and appreciating and critiquing and being frustrated with that you have a point of view that is potentially even polarizing is taste.

但是，有品味，有你热爱的东西，你花了足够的时间学习、理解、欣赏、批评，并对你的观点感到沮丧，甚至可能会两极分化，这就是品味。

Riding the fence is usually not taste.

骑墙通常不是品味。

And so when I think about the details matter, that's almost like a nod to taste.

因此，当我考虑细节的重要性时，这几乎就像是对品味的认可。

Obsess over the details of something, whether that be art, music, product, film, whatever.

着迷于某件事的细节，无论是艺术、音乐、产品、电影还是其他什么。

I care a lot about that.

我非常关心这一点。

Lenny: I love that.

莱尼：我喜欢这个。

And that comes back to a lot of the things we've talked about of talking to customers, looking the data, actually having the firsthand information on what people need and what people want from your product.

这又回到了我们讨论过的很多事情，比如与客户交谈、查看数据、实际上掌握人们需要什么以及人们想从你的产品中得到什么的第一手信息。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

I'm just going to ask two more, and I'll let you go.

我再问两句就放你走了。

What is a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you love?

您最近发现自己喜欢的最喜欢的产品是什么？

Chris Miller: I fell in love with golf right before the pandemic, but the pandemic really is when I lost my mind and was obsessed with golf.

克里斯·米勒：疫情发生前我就爱上了高尔夫，但疫情真正让我失去了理智，迷上了高尔夫。

It was one of the few safe things that you could do outside that was social and less dangerous than getting a drink with your buddy at the bar.

这是你可以在户外做的为数不多的安​​全的事情之一，它是社交性的，而且比和你的朋友在酒吧喝酒更危险。

That's the joke.

这就是笑话。

It's like men invented golf so they could go on walks with each other, and that's essentially what kind of drove the interest in golf.

这就像男人发明了高尔夫，这样他们就可以一起散步，这本质上就是推动人们对高尔夫的兴趣的原因。

And I also was horrible at it when I first started.

当我刚开始的时候，我也很糟糕。

Chris Miller: And so I think also as you get older and maybe you get more established in your career, or I've been in a product-led growth sort of lane for a while.

克里斯·米勒：所以我认为，随着年龄的增长，也许你的职业生涯会更加成熟，或者我已经处于产品主导型增长的轨道上一段时间了。

You almost forget what it's like to be really bad at something until you have a kid and then everything's new and you're failing every day.

你几乎忘记了在某件事上真的很糟糕是什么感觉，直到你有了孩子，然后一切都是新的，你每天都在失败。

Chris Miller: But golf was a refreshing, consistent experience of frustration and inadequacy and just really embracing that and just waiting in it for a while knowing that it's just going to take cycles and time to get better and better.

克里斯·米勒：但是高尔夫是一种令人耳目一新的、持续的挫折和不足的体验，并且真正拥抱它并等待一段时间，知道它只是需要周期和时间才能变得越来越好。

It was something I got really addicted to, and so I tried to play golf whenever I can, and most recently I bought a Garmin watch, and that thing is just magical.

这是我真正上瘾的事情，所以我尽可能地尝试打高尔夫球，最近我买了一块 Garmin 手表，那东西太神奇了。

You roll up to the first tee box, you look at your watch, it knows exactly where you are, which golf course.

你走到第一个发球台，看看手表，它确切地知道你在哪里，哪个高尔夫球场。

Sometimes it'll even tell you which tees you're at, because in golf sometimes you're further back and sometimes you're further ahead, and it tracks your swings, it tells you distances.

有时它甚至会告诉你你在哪个发球台，因为在高尔夫中有时你会靠后，有时你会靠前，它会跟踪你的挥杆，告诉你距离。

Lenny: Wow.

莱尼：哇。

I just want to play golf just to use that watch.

我只是想打高尔夫球，只是为了使用那块手表。

Chris Miller: Oh my gosh, some of the guys that I golf with, a couple of them had one recently and I just was enthralled by it and I literally went home and ordered it that same day.

克里斯·米勒（Chris Miller）：哦，天哪，和我一起打高尔夫球的一些人，其中有几个人最近有一个，我只是被它迷住了，我真的回家并在同一天订购了它。

And it's been the coolest product or gadget that I bought in a while.

这是我一段时间以来买过的最酷的产品或小玩意。

Lenny: Damn.

莱尼：该死。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

And I was also thinking as you were talking about getting into golf connects back to your relentless curiosity and resilience that you look for in people that you hire.

当你谈论进入高尔夫行业时，我也在想，这与你在雇佣的人身上寻找的不懈的好奇心和韧性有关。

So clearly you have it yourself.

很明显你自己就有了。

Lenny: Final question, I believe you have a dog named Ferney, which is short for Fernet.

莱尼：最后一个问题，我相信你有一只名叫费尼（Ferney）的狗，它是费内特（Fernet）的缩写。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So on that note, what is your favorite current cocktail, if it's not just a shot of Fernet?

那么在这一点上，如果它不仅仅是一杯 Fernet，那么您当前最喜欢的鸡尾酒是什么？

Chris Miller: The nightcap is always a shot of Fernet.

克里斯·米勒：睡前酒总是费内特的镜头。

Sometimes you might mix a little Coca-Cola with that.

有时你可能会混合一点可口可乐。

I think, where do they do that?

我想，他们在哪里这样做？

Is that Spain?

那是西班牙吗？

Chris Miller: Or Argentina.

克里斯·米勒：或者阿根廷。

I don't know.

我不知道。

It's definitely a country that that's a thing.

这绝对是一个国家的事情。

My wife has been really into really high quality margaritas, made at home, and we're big into Aperol Spritz in the summer, so I would say that that's usually what dominates the happy hour rotation these days.

我的妻子非常喜欢在家制作的高品质玛格丽塔酒，而且我们在夏天非常喜欢阿佩罗雪碧，所以我想说，这通常是这些天欢乐时光轮流的主导因素。

Lenny: I just had an Aperol.

莱尼：我刚刚喝了一杯开胃酒。

Is it Aperol?

是阿佩罗吗？

Aperol Spritz, right?

阿佩罗雪碧，对吗？

Chris Miller: Yeah.

克里斯·米勒：是的。

I'm not good at pronunciation.

我发音不太好。

It's probably one of those two.

很可能就是这两个之一。

Lenny: I just had that for the first time.

莱尼：我还是第一次这样。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

That's going to be my new go-to.

这将是我的新目标。

Chris Miller: You had an Aperol Spritz for the first time recently?

Chris Miller：你最近第一次喝了 Aperol Spritz 吗？

Lenny: Yes.

莱尼：是的。

I didn't know what that was.

我不知道那是什么。

Chris Miller: That was like the zeitgeist a couple summers ago and then there, oh man.

克里斯·米勒：这就像几年前夏天的时代精神，然后就出现了，天哪。

There's the other one too.

还有另一件。

The Negroni Sbagliatos are having a moment too.

Negroni Sbagliatos 也有一段精彩的时光。

It's like a Negroni with Prosecco.

就像内格罗尼和普罗塞克一样。

I forget.

我忘记了。

Lenny: Ooh, that sounds amazing.

莱尼：哦，听起来棒极了。

There's so much knowledge to be gained in this podcast episode.

在这个播客节目中可以学到很多知识。

Chris, this was incredible.

克里斯，这太不可思议了。

Thank you so much for being here.

非常感谢您来到这里。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and maybe ask you a question or two.

如果人们想联系您并问您一两个问题，可以在哪里找到您？

And two, how can listeners be useful to you?

第二，听众如何对你有用？

Chris Miller: You can connect with me on LinkedIn.

Chris Miller：您可以在 LinkedIn 上与我联系。

Shoot me a message.

给我发消息。

Christopher Miller.

克里斯托弗·米勒。

There's a lot of Christopher Millers.

克里斯托弗·米勒有很多。

I'm the one that looks like me, works for HubSpot.

我就是那个看起来像我的人，在 HubSpot 工作。

I have a Twitter.

我有一个推特。

I don't spend ton of time...

我不会花很多时间...

X.

X.

I have an X account, but I don't spend a lot of time on the app, formerly known as the bird app, but I'm on Instagram @millsyjoeyoung, which is a nod to one of my favorite old monster films, Mighty Joe Young.

我有一个 X 帐户，但我不会在该应用程序上花费很多时间，该应用程序以前称为 Bird 应用程序，但我在 Instagram 上@millsyjoeyoung，这是对我最喜欢的老怪物电影之一《Mighty Joe Young》的致敬。

And so yeah, I'm on Instagram a bunch, too.

是的，我也经常上 Instagram。

That's where you can find me.

那就是你可以找到我的地方。

Lenny: Then I know two other things that you wanted to share.

莱尼：那么我知道你想分享的另外两件事。

One is that you advise on PLG and things like that, so maybe talk about that real briefly.

一是你就 PLG 之类的事情提出建议，所以也许可以简单地谈谈这个问题。

And then also you're hiring at HubSpot, or can people know about that?

然后您还在 HubSpot 进行招聘，或者人们可以知道这一点吗？

Chris Miller: I definitely do a bit of angel investing and advising companies on the side, and I really enjoy it.

克里斯·米勒：我确实兼职做一些天使投资和为公司提供咨询，我真的很喜欢它。

I think there's something really cool and awesome about getting to see fresh problems all the time and not necessarily being so laser focused on the sort of categories or verticals or target customers that you're dealing with for 40 plus hours a week.

我认为，始终看到新的问题，而不一定要如此专注于每周 40 多个小时要处理的类别、垂直行业或目标客户，这真的很酷、很棒。

And so it's kind of refreshing to spend time with founders who are working on products in different categories and having different challenges at different stages of growth and being able to figure out how I can be a resource to them.

因此，与那些致力于不同类别产品、在不同成长阶段面临不同挑战并能够弄清楚如何成为他们的资源的创始人一起度过时光是一种耳目一新的感觉。

And so if you're looking for, if that sounds interesting to you, you're a founder or head of product out there, definitely reach out and maybe opportunities for us to collaborate and maybe that can be a resource.

因此，如果您正在寻找，如果这对您来说很有趣，您是创始人或产品负责人，一定要伸出援手，也许是我们合作的机会，也许这可以成为一种资源。

Lenny: Cool.

莱尼：酷。

And then on the hiring front, any specific roles you want people to know about that you might be hiring?

然后在招聘方面，您希望人们了解您可能正在招聘的任何具体职位？

Chris Miller: There'll definitely be more roles opening up in the fall, but I think most immediately I'll be looking for a group product manager to work on the AI platform team that I'm leading.

Chris Miller：秋季肯定会有更多职位空缺，但我认为我首先会寻找一名集团产品经理来为我领导的人工智能平台团队工作。

Chris Miller: Yeah, it's a great role with a fantastic team and a space that might be a little important these days.

克里斯·米勒：是的，这是一个很棒的角色，拥有一支出色的团队和一个如今可能有点重要的空间。

And so if you go to the HubSpot job site, that role should be there by the time this podcast is live.

因此，如果您访问 HubSpot 招聘网站，当该播客上线时，该职位应该已经存在。

That role should definitely be up there.

这个角色绝对应该在那里。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Chris, thank you again for being here.

克里斯，再次感谢你来到这里。

Chris Miller: Lenny, pleasure.

克里斯·米勒：莱尼，很高兴。

Thank you for having me.

谢谢你有我。

This has been amazing.

这真是太棒了。

Bye, everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

再见，大家：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。