How to become a category pirate | Christopher Lochhead (Author of Play Bigger, Niche Down, more)

Christopher Lochhead: The point being, now is the greatest time in history to be a creator, to be an entrepreneur, to be a marketer.

Christopher Lochhead：关键是，现在是历史上成为创造者、企业家和营销人员的最伟大时代。

I've been a marketer for my entire adult life.

我成年后一直是一名营销人员。

It's never been greater than it is right now.

它从来没有像现在这样伟大过。

And so here's the big thing that I would share.

这就是我要分享的一件大事。

If you are somebody for whom you want to make an exponential difference, you want to innovate, you want to create new value where there wasn't, you want to have a legendary career where you could look back on your career and go, you know what?

如果你想为自己带来指数级的改变，你想创新，你想创造新的价值，你想拥有一个传奇的职业生涯，让你可以回顾自己的职业生涯并继续前进，你知道吗？

I was part of this and that, and I was on this team, now's the greatest time in history.

我是这个那个的一部分，我是这个团队的一员，现在是历史上最伟大的时刻。

And what I would say to you is, the future needs you.

我想对你说的是，未来需要你。

Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.

莱尼：欢迎来到莱尼的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们来之不易的构建和发展当今最成功产品的经验。

Lenny: Today my guest is Christopher Lochhead.

莱尼：今天我的客人是克里斯托弗·洛赫海德。

Christopher is a 13-time number one bestselling co-author, including books like Play Bigger and Niche Down.

Christopher 是 13 次排名第一的畅销书合著者，其著作包括《Play Bigger》和《Niche Down》等。

He's also a popular podcaster, co-creator of the excellent Substack Category Pirates, and is best known as the Godfather of Category Design.

他也是一位受欢迎的播客，优秀的 Substack Category Pirates 的共同创建者，并且被誉为类别设计教父。

He's also an advisor to over 50 venture-backed startups, and a former three-time public company CMO.

他还是 50 多家风险投资支持的初创公司的顾问，并且曾三次担任上市公司首席营销官。

Lenny: In our conversation, we dig deep into all things category design, including what exactly is category design?

Lenny：在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了品类设计的所有内容，包括品类设计到底是什么？

Why, in order to build a legendary business, it's so essential to build your own category versus trying to become the best in an existing category.

为什么，为了建立一个传奇的企业，建立自己的类别而不是试图成为现有类别中的最佳类别是如此重要。

Also, how to actually go about creating your own category.

另外，如何实际创建自己的类别。

A ton of examples of companies that did this well and didn't do this well, what we could learn from them.

有很多在这方面做得好的和做得不好的公司的例子，我们可以从他们身上学到什么。

Plus a ton of practical frameworks, including something Chris calls The "Better" Trap.

加上大量实用的框架，包括克里斯称之为“更好”陷阱的东西。

Also, why he thinks product market fit is a very dangerous idea.

另外，为什么他认为产品市场契合度是一个非常危险的想法。

Chris is such a character and I had such a blast speaking with Chris.

克里斯是一个很有个性的人，我和克里斯交谈得很开心。

With that, I bring you Christopher Lochhead after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了克里斯托弗·洛赫海德 (Christopher Lochhead)。

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当你在做这件事的时候，他们也在招聘。

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Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Lenny: Christopher, thank you so much for being here.

莱尼：克里斯托弗，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Christopher Lochhead: Lenny, it is my absolute joy.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：莱尼，这绝对是我的快乐。

And let me say in case my ADHD brain forgets, I love all things Lenny.

让我说，以防我的注意力缺陷多动症大脑忘记了，我喜欢莱尼的一切。

You're doing a great job, buddy.

你做得很好，伙计。

I'm honored to be here.

我很荣幸来到这里。

And there's so many people in the entrepreneur startup marketing world who are scam artists, shysters, pieces of shit, idiotic hustle porn stars yelling stupidities.

在创业营销界，有很多人是骗子、害羞者、狗屎、愚蠢的色情明星，他们大喊着愚蠢的事情。

There's a lot of idiocy in the world in which you travel and I travel, and you, sir, stand out.

世界上有很多愚蠢的事情，你和我都在其中旅行，而你，先生，脱颖而出。

You are making a difference.

你正在做出改变。

The conversations you're driving, the content you're creating.

您正在推动的对话，您正在创建的内容。

You're fucking awesome, Lenny, and I'm really stoked to be here with you.

你太棒了，莱尼，能和你在一起我真的很兴奋。

Lenny: Damn, what an intro to my own podcast.

莱尼：天啊，这真是我自己播客的介绍啊。

I'm bad at accepting compliments.

我不擅长接受赞美。

I'm just going to accept that and I appreciate that, man.

我只会接受这一点，我很感激，伙计。

Christopher Lochhead: No, you need to get it.

Christopher Lochhead：不，你需要得到它。

You are a beacon in an ocean of crapola.

你是克拉波拉海洋中的灯塔。

You are incredible.

你太不可思议了。

Lenny: Well, enough about me.

莱尼：好了，关于我的事情就够了。

I really appreciate it.

我真的很感激。

I was preparing for our conversation and usually what I try to do when I prepare for conversations is I read everything the person has written and it was very challenging with you.

我正在准备我们的谈话，通常当我准备谈话时我会尝试做的就是阅读这个人写的所有内容，这对你来说非常具有挑战性。

You have two podcasts, you have at least six books.

你有两个播客，你至少有六本书。

There's probably more I missed.

我可能还错过了更多。

You have a newsletter, you tweet a lot.

你有一份时事通讯，你经常发推文。

There's probably a lot of other stuff I didn't get to.

可能还有很多其他的东西我没有接触到。

And so you made my job very difficult preparing for this podcast, but also very worthwhile.

所以你让我准备这个播客的工作变得非常困难，但也非常值得。

So I'm excited to begin.

所以我很高兴开始。

Lenny: The other thing I noticed as I was browsing your website, and it was hilarious because you have all these testimonials of your book and podcast and you have a lot of negative reviews, like "Off-putting, or, "Very disappointing," or, "Absolute crap." I'm curious why you chose to do that as your website testimonial wall.

莱尼：当我浏览你的网站时，我注意到另一件事，这很搞笑，因为你有所有这些关于你的书和播客的推荐，而且有很多负面评论，比如“令人不快，或者，”非常令人失望，”或者，“绝对垃圾。”我很好奇你为什么选择这样做作为你的网站推荐墙。

Christopher Lochhead: Well, and I believe, I'd have to check with Steve Osler, the founder and publisher of Podcast Magazine, but I believe I'm the only podcaster in history to run a full page ad in Podcast Magazine with just negative quotes in it.

克里斯托弗·洛赫黑德：嗯，我相信，我必须与播客杂志的创始人兼出版商史蒂夫·奥斯勒核实，但我相信我是历史上唯一一个在播客杂志上投放整版广告且只包含负面引言的播客。

Christopher Lochhead: So a couple reasons.

Christopher Lochhead：有几个原因。

Number one, can we all just have a sense of humor about this stuff?

第一，我们能否对这些事情保持幽默感？

So it's my way, and the name of our team, yet we're sort of a company, but we're more of a band, is Category Pirates.

所以这是我的方式，我们团队的名称是“类别海盗”，虽然我们是一家公司，但我们更像是一个乐队。

I mean, clearly if you're called Category Pirates, you're probably trying to have a little bit of fun with this stuff.

我的意思是，显然，如果您被称为“类别海盗”，那么您可能会尝试从这些东西中获得一点乐趣。

And so part of it is just trying to have a sense of humor with people.

所以其中一部分只是试图与人保持幽默感。

Christopher Lochhead: The second piece of it is, for a lot of entrepreneurs, marketers, creators, innovators of any kind, we live in this fear that when we launch our thing, whatever our thing is, that we will be criticized by the world and that we will be made fun of.

Christopher Lochhead：第二点是，对于许多企业家、营销人员、创造者、任何类型的创新者来说，我们生活在这样的恐惧之中：当我们推出我们的产品时，无论我们的产品是什么，我们都会受到世界的批评，我们会被取笑。

And if you've ever authored a book or done a podcast or done anything, built a product, a software product, built any kind of a product that you feel is part of you, and most innovators, creators, software developers, artists, of course entrepreneurs, feel that way because they put themselves into this stuff.

如果你曾经写过一本书、做过一个播客或做过任何事情，开发过一个产品、一个软件产品，开发过任何一种你认为是你一部分的产品，大多数创新者、创造者、软件开发人员、艺术家，当然还有企业家，都会有这样的感觉，因为他们把自己投入到了这些东西中。

And when somebody criticizes us, many of us are devastated.

当有人批评我们时，我们中的许多人都会感到沮丧。

And I have been in the past too.

我也曾经经历过。

I'm a person just like anybody else.

我是一个和其他人一样的人。

Christopher Lochhead: And what I realized is, fuck them.

Christopher Lochhead：我意识到，操他们。

Anybody who's trying to do anything exponential, anybody who's trying to break and take new ground, anybody who's trying to radically innovate, anybody who's trying to design and dominate new categories of the way we live, work and play, gets criticized.

任何试图做指数级的事情的人，任何试图突破并开辟新天地的人，任何试图彻底创新的人，任何试图设计和主导我们生活、工作和娱乐方式的新类别的人，都会受到批评。

Picasso was called stupid.

毕加索被称为愚蠢的。

The Beatles were called terrible.

披头士乐队被称为可怕的。

Elvis was called terrible.

埃尔维斯被称为可怕的。

I just wrote recently a little bit about hip-hop.

我最近刚刚写了一些关于嘻哈的文章。

I was listening to Rick Rubin on Barry Weiss's podcast, excellent episode.

我在巴里·韦斯的播客中听里克·鲁宾的节目，非常棒的一集。

Excellent.

太棒了。

She does a great job with him.

她和他相处得很好。

And he was talking about how ridiculed hip-hop was in the beginning and it got banned.

他谈到嘻哈音乐一开始是如何受到嘲笑并被禁止的。

And it's the number one category of music in America today.

它是当今美国排名第一的音乐类别。

Christopher Lochhead: Anyway, so that's also part of it, is to just sort of say, "Hey, look, this is some of the shit people have said about our work and my work, and I'm going to just put it on display, because this is going to happen to all of us."

Christopher Lochhead：无论如何，这也是其中的一部分，就是说，“嘿，看，这是人们对我们的工作和我的工作所说的一些狗屎，我将把它展示出来，因为这将发生在我们所有人身上。”

Christopher Lochhead: And then I guess, Lenny, the third reason is in the creator world, broadly, there's a lot of people who are breaking their arms patting themselves on the back.

Christopher Lochhead：然后我想，Lenny，第三个原因是在创作者世界中，从广义上讲，有很多人在拍着自己的背摔断手臂。

And look, I understand why we have to tell people about why they should pay attention to us, and so we use our credentials or our awards or our downloads or our books, I understand that, and I do a little bit of that too.

看，我理解为什么我们必须告诉人们为什么他们应该关注我们，所以我们使用我们的证书或我们的奖项或我们的下载或我们的书籍，我理解这一点，我也做了一点。

However, come on, let's just not take ourselves so seriously.

然而，来吧，我们不要太认真地对待自己。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I could definitely use more of that skill of not taking negative feedback as seriously.

我绝对可以更多地使用这种不认真对待负面反馈的技巧。

And I love the idea of just embracing it and showing people what people don't like.

我喜欢拥抱它并向人们展示人们不喜欢什么的想法。

Christopher Lochhead: Why not?

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：为什么不呢？

I mean, look, you're incredibly successful and if somebody says something negative about you, okay, great.

我的意思是，看，你非常成功，如果有人对你说一些负面的话，好吧，很好。

Fuck them.

操他们。

They're not your people.

他们不是你的人。

Christopher Lochhead: I didn't know who you were until Substack, and I saw your logo, the fiery logo, and there was something endearing about your logo.

Christopher Lochhead：直到 Substack 之前我都不知道你是谁，我看到了你的标志，火热的标志，你的标志有一些可爱的东西。

And the other thing that's great about you, from a radical differentiation marketing perspective is, you call yourself Lenny.

从激进的差异化营销角度来看，你的另一件伟大之处是，你称自己为莱尼。

And when I talk about you, I don't know your fucking last name.

当我谈论你时，我不知道你他妈的姓氏。

I mean, I sort of know it, but I don't really, you know what I mean?

我的意思是，我有点知道，但我真的不知道，你明白我的意思吗？

Christopher Lochhead: Actually, I was at the gym this morning and I was telling my buddy that we were doing this, and I said, "Oh, I'm going on Lenny's Podcast." He says, "Lenny who?" And I said, "It begins with an R.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：事实上，今天早上我在健身房，我告诉我的朋友我们正在做这个，我说，“哦，我要参加莱尼的播客。”他说：“莱尼是谁？”我说：“它以 R 开头。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Everybody just calls him Lenny." And so the fact that you are yourself, you don't play a character, you're not a douche, you're just a person trying to be successful in the world and help others, right?

每个人都叫他莱尼。”事实上，你就是你自己，你不扮演一个角色，你不是一个混蛋，你只是一个试图在世界上取得成功并帮助他人的人，对吗？

Christopher Lochhead: That's a very powerful thing.

Christopher Lochhead：这是一件非常强大的事情。

And I think one of the things that is insidious about influencers, hustle porn stars, part of the business model is creating the perception of superiority, right?

我认为对于有影响力的人、忙碌的色情明星来说，阴险的一件事是商业模式的一部分，就是创造优越感，对吗？

The reason Grant Cardone and Tai Lopez and all these douchebags pose in front of planes and all this garbage is they want you, the Kardashians are the queens of this, they want you to look at them and go, "Oh, wow, don't I wish that I was them."

格兰特·卡登（Grant Cardone）和泰·洛佩兹（Tai Lopez）以及所有这些混蛋在飞机前摆姿势以及所有这些垃圾的原因是他们想要你，卡戴珊家族是这一切的女王，他们希望你看着他们然后说，“哦，哇，我不希望我是他们。”

Christopher Lochhead: And so these folks are in the create and monetize envy business, and you're the opposite of that.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：所以这些人从事的是创造嫉妒并从中获利的行业，而你则恰恰相反。

And I think the legendary educators in the native digital world are the opposite of that.

我认为原生数字世界中的传奇教育家恰恰相反。

Anybody who's creating separation, anybody who's putting themselves above, anybody for whom there must be, "I must be the leader, and you must be the follower," that's the business model of a massive amount of people in the native digital world, and we reject that.

任何制造分离的人，任何把自己置于首位的人，任何必须有“我必须是领导者，你必须是追随者”的人，这就是原生数字世界中大量人的商业模式，我们拒绝这种模式。

And I know you do.

我知道你会的。

Lenny: Absolutely.

莱尼：当然。

We've already gotten way off track, but I love it.

我们已经偏离了轨道，但我喜欢它。

I'll just say one thing and then we'll get back on track.

我只想说一件事，然后我们就回到正轨。

The reason I called my newsletter, Lenny's Newsletter is because that was the default recommendation Substack gave me when I signed up.

我之所以将我的时事通讯称为 Lenny's Newsletter，是因为这是我注册时 Substack 给我的默认推荐。

They're just like, "Call it this." And I'm like, "Okay," because I don't know, I didn't have no plans to actually be doing this long term.

他们只是说，“就这样吧。”我想，“好吧，”因为我不知道，我并没有真正长期这样做的计划。

And then it just stuck.

然后就卡住了。

And then I brainstormed for weeks.

然后我集思广益了几个星期。

I'm like, "I need a real name on this thing." And I just couldn't think of anything that I liked.

我想，“我需要在这件事上有一个真实的名字。”我就是想不出任何我喜欢的东西。

So I'm just like, "All right, I'll just roll with it." And then when the podcast launched, I tried so many ways to call it something else so that it would push the whole naming in a different direction, it wasn't about me, but I couldn't think of anything better.

所以我就想，“好吧，我就顺其自然吧。”然后当播客推出时，我尝试了很多方法来命名它，这样它就会将整个命名推向不同的方向，这与我无关，但我想不出更好的方法。

So I'm just rolling with it at this point.

所以我现在只是顺其自然。

Christopher Lochhead: Well, and the interesting thing is, even though the branding of the shit has your name in, it's not about you.

Christopher Lochhead：嗯，有趣的是，尽管狗屎的品牌上有你的名字，但这与你无关。

That's the irony, right?

这就是讽刺，对吧？

Meghan Markle gets canceled.

梅根·马克尔被取消。

Why?

为什么？

Because it's about her, and it turns out she's infinitely uninteresting.

因为这是关于她的，而事实证明她无限无趣。

I've consumed enough of your content to know that the cool thing is, yeah, it's called Lenny, but it's actually, you are not trying to impress all of us with how awesome you are in front of a fucking plane or a bunch of scantily clad people, or I don't know what.

我已经阅读了足够多的内容，知道最酷的事情是，是的，它叫莱尼，但实际上，你并不是想给我们所有人留下深刻的印象，告诉我们你在一架他妈的飞机或一群衣着暴露的人面前有多棒，或者我不知道是什么。

Lenny: It's true.

莱尼：确实如此。

Well, I'm enjoying this podcast.

嗯，我很喜欢这个播客。

You're very kind to me.

你对我很好。

Let's talk about the meat of what I want to chat about, which is your bread and butter category creation.

让我们来谈谈我想聊的重点，那就是你的面包和黄油类别的创作。

It goes without saying you're a big fan of creating your own category versus what most people try to do, which is try to compete in an existing category.

不用说，您非常热衷于创建自己的类别，而不是大多数人尝试做的事情，即尝试在现有类别中竞争。

So just to kind of lay a little foundation, can you just explain what this actually means, this idea of category creation for people that have heard this idea in this term, but don't really know what it means.

因此，为了奠定一点基础，您能否向那些听过这个术语但并不真正知道它意味着什么的人解释一下这实际上意味着什么，这个类别创建的想法。

Christopher Lochhead: It turns out that in business, most people, and in life for that matter, make a unquestioned, unconsidered, undialogued, unthought of decision that they don't know they made.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：事实证明，在商业中，大多数人以及在生活中，都会做出未经质疑、未经考虑、未经对话、未经思考的决定，但他们并不知道自己做出了决定。

And the decision they make is, "What I'm going to do, is I am going to compete in a market with demand, with a better product/service/brand, maybe a better business model, maybe a better set of growth hacking ideas that I learned on the Lenny Podcast.

他们做出的决定是，“我要做的，是在一个有需求的市场中竞争，用更好的产品/服务/品牌，也许是更好的商业模式，也许是我在 Lenny 播客上学到的一套更好的增长黑客想法。

And when the world gets my better, the world will beat a path to my door."

当世界变得更好时，世界就会向我敞开大门。”

Christopher Lochhead: And if you go onto Amazon right now, Lenny, there's roughly a hundred thousand marketing books, and I think I'd have to double check, but I think there's about 60,000 or 80,000 business strategy books.

Christopher Lochhead：莱尼，如果你现在访问亚马逊，大约有十万本营销书籍，我想我必须仔细检查一下，但我认为大约有 60,000 或 80,000 本商业策略书籍。

And of course, me and my collaborators, we haven't read all of them, but like you and like many of us in business, we've read many of the tomes, the Bibles out there, and there's an interesting thing about virtually all of them.

当然，我和我的合作者，我们还没有读过所有这些书，但像您和我们许多商界人士一样，我们读过许多大部头书、《圣经》，而且几乎所有这些书都有一个有趣的事情。

That's what they're about.

这就是他们的目的。

It's about how to compete and win.

这是关于如何竞争并获胜。

Christopher Lochhead: Well, here's the aha.

Christopher Lochhead：嗯，这就是啊哈。

Nobody legendary ever did that.

没有传奇人物这样做过。

Not a one.

不是一个。

We all know who Bob Marley is.

我们都知道鲍勃·马利是谁。

We don't know who the 17th greatest reggae musician or band in the world is.

我们不知道世界上第 17 位最伟大的雷鬼音乐家或乐队是谁。

We all know who Pablo Picasso is.

我们都知道巴勃罗·毕加索是谁。

We don't know who the fifth greatest cubist artist is.

我们不知道第五位最伟大的立体派艺术家是谁。

And so wherever you look in life, whether it's in the business world, people who drive social change, artists, creators of any kind, the people that we tend to admire the most are the people who broke and took new ground.

因此，无论你在生活中看到什么，无论是在商界、推动社会变革的人、艺术家、任何类型的创造者，我们最钦佩的人往往是那些突破和开辟新天地的人。

And the aha here is the category makes the product, the category makes the brand, the category makes the company.

这里的啊哈是类别造就了产品，类别造就了品牌，类别造就了公司。

Christopher Lochhead: So I'll give you the data and then I'll fully answer your question.

Christopher Lochhead：所以我会给你数据，然后我会完整回答你的问题。

So here's the data.

这是数据。

We did an analysis for our first book where we studied every venture-backed tech company in the US from 2000 to 2015.

我们对第一本书进行了分析，研究了 2000 年至 2015 年美国每家由风险投资支持的科技公司。

And we asked a question that, to the best of our knowledge, had never been asked before.

据我们所知，我们提出了一个以前从未被问过的问题。

And we went to Stanford and we asked a bunch of professors this question, and they said, "We don't know this.

我们去了斯坦福大学，问了一群教授这个问题，他们说：“我们不知道这一点。

You're going to have to do it yourselves." So we did, and incidentally had it peer reviewed and published in the HBR.

你必须自己做。”所以我们就这么做了，顺便让它经过了同行评审并在《哈佛商业评论》上发表。

And if you've ever gotten data published in the HBR, then you know what it's like to have a journalistic proctology exam.

如果您曾经在《哈佛商业评论》上发表过数据，那么您就会知道新闻直肠学检查的感觉。

Christopher Lochhead: Anyway, here's the net of it.

Christopher Lochhead：无论如何，这就是它的网络。

In tech market categories, on average, one company earns two-thirds, 76% to be exact, of the total value created as measured by market cap and or valuation.

在科技市场类别中，平均而言，一家公司的收入占按市值和/或估值衡量的创造总价值的三分之二，确切地说是 76%。

So not market share, which is important, market cap as measured by the value of all the companies in the category.

因此，重要的不是市场份额，而是按该类别中所有公司的价值衡量的市值。

So you take a category, you add all the companys' value together, and you say, "What percent goes to the leader, the category, queen or king?

因此，你选择一个类别，将所有公司的价值加在一起，然后说：“领导者、类别、女王或国王的百分比是多少？

And what percent goes to everybody else?" One company, two-thirds of the economics.

那么百分之多少归其他人所有呢？”一家公司，三分之二的经济效益。

Christopher Lochhead: So the aha here, Lenny, is when we make the unquestioned, unconsidered, undialogued decision that we didn't know that we made, to compete, we have unwittingly said, "We're going to fight for the 24%." And it's the distinction or delta between create demand and capture demand.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：所以，莱尼，这里的啊哈，是当我们做出我们不知道自己做出的未经质疑、未经考虑、未经对话的决定时，为了竞争，我们无意中说，“我们将为 24% 的人而战。”这就是创造需求和捕获需求之间的区别或差异。

So we prefer the term category design, and I can explain why design instead of creation, we don't have anything against creation, but creation creates a confusion in people's mind.

所以我们更喜欢类别设计这个术语，我可以解释为什么设计而不是创造，我们没有任何反对创造的东西，但创造在人们的头脑中造成了混乱。

When people hear category creation, because most people in business, most people in tech, are strongly oriented to product, what they think you said is first to ship a product that has X features.

当人们听到类别创建时，因为大多数商界人士、大多数科技界人士都强烈以产品为导向，他们认为你所说的是首先发布具有 X 功能的产品。

Christopher Lochhead: So when most people say category creation, that's what they think.

Christopher Lochhead：所以当大多数人说类别创建时，他们就是这么想的。

They say, "They category, Myspace did." Or if you've been around for a little while longer, "GeoCities did." And so category creation, category design, does not equal first to ship a product with a set of features.

他们说，“Myspace 进行了分类。”或者，如果您已经存在一段时间了，“GeoCities 做到了。”因此，品类创建、品类设计并不等于首先推出具有一组功能的产品。

So what does it equal?

那么它等于什么呢？

Here's the aha.

这是啊哈。

Just like you can design a product, just like you can design a company culture or business model, you can actually design a market.

就像你可以设计产品一样，就像你可以设计公司文化或商业模式一样，你实际上可以设计一个市场。

Christopher Lochhead: And in so doing, you create a new distinction in value for people that didn't exist before.

Christopher Lochhead：这样做，你就为人们创造了一种以前不存在的新的价值差异。

I'll give you a simple example.

我给你举一个简单的例子。

If I could own any product in the world right now, I think I'd probably want to own Purell.

如果我现在可以拥有世界上任何产品，我想我可能会想拥有 Purell。

And there's a great thing about the company that makes Purell.

生产 Purell 的公司有一个伟大的事情。

The company's been around for a very, very long time, and they're owned by the original family that created the company.

该公司已经存在了非常非常长的时间，并且由创建该公司的原始家族拥有。

Their original problem that they were solving is, it was a husband and wife team, and they were working in a factory.

他们最初要解决的问题是，这是一个夫妻团队，他们在一家工厂工作。

This was 80 plus years ago.

这是80多年前的事了。

The company, by the way, is called Gojo Industries.

顺便说一句，这家公司叫做 Gojo Industries。

Gojo.

五条。

And Gojo is a portmanteau, putting their two names together.

Gojo 是一个合成词，将他们两个名字放在一起。

I think it was, maybe it was Gloria and Joseph, or I'd have to double check the husband and wife names, you'll excuse me, but the company's called Gojo Industries, and I think the granddaughter runs it today, if I'm not mistaken.

我想是的，也许是格洛丽亚和约瑟夫，或者我必须仔细检查一下丈夫和妻子的名字，请原谅我，但这家公司叫Gojo Industries，如果我没记错的话，我想孙女今天经营着这家公司。

Christopher Lochhead: Anyway, so the gal, the wife said, "This bar soap is disgusting.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：不管怎样，那个女孩，她的妻子说，“这块肥皂太恶心了。

It's full of crapola, it's hairy, it's full of man nastiness." So the solution to washing your hands called a bar of soap was a disgusting, inappropriate solution for her.

它充满了碎肉，它毛茸茸的，充满了男人的肮脏。”因此，用肥皂来洗手的解决方案对她来说是一种令人厌恶、不合适的解决方案。

So she reimagined the problem, not as, "How do I wash my hands," but as, "How do I wash my hands without a disgusting bar soap?" And Gojo Industries created a whole new category called liquid soap.

因此，她重新设想了这个问题，不是“我如何洗手”，而是“如何在没有恶心的肥皂的情况下洗手？” Gojo Industries 创造了一个全新的类别，称为液体肥皂。

And in most restaurants, most corporate bathrooms, most airport bathrooms, if you start paying attention, you'll see the Gojo logo on the squeezy thing that you pull when you go to get the soap.

在大多数餐馆、大多数公司浴室、大多数机场浴室中，如果你开始注意，你会在你去拿肥皂时拉动的挤压物上看到 Gojo 标志。

So unlike most innovators and entrepreneurs, who get obsessed with the solution, and I understand why, we all love our shit, we all love our product.

因此，与大多数痴迷于解决方案的创新者和企业家不同，我明白为什么，我们都喜欢我们的狗屎，我们都喜欢我们的产品。

If you want to talk to me about our shit, I want to talk all about it.

如果你想和我谈论我们的事情，我想谈论一切。

Christopher Lochhead: We could do a 12-hour deep dive on all your content and how you built the newsletter, and you'd love it.

Christopher Lochhead：我们可以对您的所有内容以及您如何构建时事通讯进行 12 小时的深入研究，您会喜欢的。

It'd be great.

那就太好了。

We all do.

我们都这样做。

If you're a creator of any kind, entrepreneur, innovator of any kind, you love the thing you're creating, of course.

如果你是任何类型的创造者、企业家、任何类型的创新者，你当然喜欢你正在创造的东西。

However, Gojo focused on the problem, not just the solution.

然而，Gojo 关注的是问题，而不仅仅是解决方案。

So they stay obsessed with the problem, and then they ask a different question, which is, "How do I wash my hands in the absence of water?" And of course, the answer to that question is a new category, hand sanitizer.

所以他们一直痴迷于这个问题，然后他们提出一个不同的问题，那就是“在没有水的情况下我该如何洗手？”当然，这个问题的答案是一个新类别：洗手液。

And the dominant brand, of course is Purell.

主导品牌当然是 Purell。

Christopher Lochhead: And so the aha here is the company that designs the space and gets it to tip at scale.

Christopher Lochhead：所以这里最令人惊叹的是设计该空间并使其规模化的公司。

And when I say designs the space, what I mean is specifically gets a meaningful percentage of the world to agree with their definition of a problem set, which then leads to their definition of a solution set.

当我说设计空间时，我的意思是让世界上有意义的百分比同意他们对问题集的定义，然后导致他们对解决方案集的定义。

The company that does that at any kind of scale, wins.

无论规模如何，做到这一点的公司都会获胜。

And so the number one question for any entrepreneur or any creator at all is, "Do I want to compete for 24% of an existing market category?

因此，对于任何企业家或任何创造者来说，首要问题是：“我想争夺现有市场类别 24% 的份额吗？

Or do I want to create my own where if I can execute, I will earn two-thirds of the economics?" That's the decision that most entrepreneurs make, that they don't know that they made.

还是我想创建自己的企业，如果我能执行，我将赚取三分之二的经济效益？”这是大多数企业家做出的决定，但他们不知道自己做出了这一决定。

And at its heart, category design is about the most radical kind of differentiation.

从本质上讲，品类设计是最根本的差异化。

Christopher Lochhead: So most companies actively seek comparison.

Christopher Lochhead：所以大多数公司都积极寻求比较。

If you go to, well, if go to many software company's website right now on their homepage, you'll see a Gartner report or a Forrester report on their homepage.

如果你现在访问许多软件公司的主页，你会在他们的主页上看到 Gartner 报告或 Forrester 报告。

You'll see ads and/or content that say, "Here are three competitors and a list of features," and there'll be 25 features, "And then there's us," and there'll be 125 features.

您会看到这样的广告和/或内容：“这是三个竞争对手和一系列功能”，并且会有 25 个功能，“然后是我们”，并且会有 125 个功能。

And they're actively inviting comparison.

他们正在积极邀请比较。

You even hear it in ads.

你甚至在广告中听到过。

If you listen to what marketers say, Lenny, we say the stupidest shit.

如果你听营销人员怎么说，莱尼，我们说的是最愚蠢的狗屎。

Don't take our word for it.

不要相信我们的话。

Anyway.

反正。

And so the legendary innovators over time, they did not compare their innovation to the past.

因此，随着时间的推移，传奇的创新者们并没有将他们的创新与过去进行比较。

They broke and took new ground.

他们突破并开辟了新天地。

They wanted to be irreplaceable.

他们想要成为不可替代的。

They wanted to be so much value in the minds of customers that not only were the switching costs horrible, switch to what?

他们希望在客户心目中具有如此大的价值，以至于转换成本不仅可怕，转换到什么？

Lenny: To follow this thread a little bit, companies that you're pretty familiar with, maybe just a rapid fire sharing of their category to give people a concrete sense of what does it even mean to have a category?

Lenny：按照这个思路，你非常熟悉的公司，也许只是快速分享他们的类别，让人们具体了解拥有一个类别意味着什么？

Lenny: It's becoming obvious that they basically all came up with a different category that they wanted to win.

莱尼：很明显，他们基本上都想出了一个他们想要赢得的不同类别。

And so Gong comes up as an example.

因此，龚就是一个例子。

I don't know if you know about Gong.

不知道大家是否了解龚。

I think they-

我认为他们——

Lenny: So it's basically like sales analytics is what they pitch, is like, this is the first thing you can ever do to understand how your sales team is doing.

莱尼：所以基本上就像他们所宣传的销售分析一样，这是您可以做的第一件事来了解您的销售团队的工作情况。

Is there anything you know more about their approach?

您对他们的方法有更多了解吗？

Christopher Lochhead: Yeah, I know the space very, very well, and they did something incredibly smart.

Christopher Lochhead：是的，我非常非常了解这个领域，他们做了一些非常聪明的事情。

So they were a little later in the space than some others.

所以他们比其他人来得晚一些。

And so there were a whole bunch of companies in today which you could broadly refer to as the revenue space, right?

所以今天有很多公司你可以广泛地称为收入空间，对吧？

In the spirit of full disclosure, I'm familiar with Clary.

本着充分披露的精神，我对克拉里很熟悉。

I'm good friends with Andy.

我和安迪是好朋友。

I know the team.

我了解这个团队。

I've done some work with them.

我和他们一起做了一些工作。

So all disclosure.

所以全部披露。

Clary, and a handful of others, in the beginning started to create the space that ultimately became RevOps.

Clary 和其他一些人一开始就开始创建最终成为 RevOps 的空间。

And the interesting thing that Gong did, very smart, was as RevOps started to emerge, they were smart enough to realize that revenue was going to be a big new important space.

有趣的是，Gong 所做的非常聪明的事情是，随着 RevOps 开始出现，他们足够聪明地意识到收入将成为一个新的重要空间。

That CRM didn't actually do it.

CRM 实际上并没有做到这一点。

That ERP didn't actually do it.

那个 ERP 实际上并没有做到这一点。

BI didn't actually do it.

BI实际上并没有这样做。

And so there was this sort of emerging set of thinking around, "We need a different approach to revenue."

因此，出现了这种新兴的思维方式：“我们需要一种不同的收入方式。”

Christopher Lochhead: They were smart enough to realize that if they went for the whole enchilada, it's not credible from a startup that you're going to go build, that you're going to show up and say, "We have a suite that's equivalent to that of SAP, just for this other area." So they picked off a very tight part of a broader emerging category, and they executed incredibly, and they dominated that part.

Christopher Lochhead：他们很聪明地意识到，如果他们选择了整个辣酱玉米饼馅，那么从一家初创公司开始构建、出现并说“我们有一套与 SAP 相当的套件，只是用于其他领域”，这是不可信的。因此，他们从更广泛的新兴类别中挑选了一个非常紧密的部分，并且执行得非常出色，并且主导了该部分。

But here's the mistake they made.

但这是他们犯的错误。

In all new mega categories, they start like this.

在所有新的大型类别中，它们都是这样开始的。

This is exactly what happened in CRM.

这正是 CRM 中发生的情况。

I could walk you through the history if it matters, but there were companies in support, there were companies in help desk, there were companies in sales, there were companies in marketing, and there were a whole bunch of sub-niches underneath that.

如果重要的话，我可以向您介绍历史，但是有提供支持的公司，有帮助台的公司，有销售的公司，有营销的公司，并且在其下面还有一大堆子利基市场。

There was a point in time in the Salesforce automation category, when that was a standalone category, that some of the hottest companies in that category were sales configurator companies, a further down niche.

在 Salesforce 自动化类别中曾经有一个时间点，当时它是一个独立的类别，该类别中一些最热门的公司是销售配置器公司，这是一个更下游的利基市场。

Christopher Lochhead: And so as these mega spaces emerge over time, no one company can fulfill the needs of a customer.

Christopher Lochhead：随着时间的推移，这些巨型空间不断出现，没有一家公司能够满足客户的需求。

And so there's all these niches.

所以就有了所有这些利基市场。

The mistake that Gong made, as well as the vast majority of others in that space, is they stayed in their micro niche.

龚以及该领域的绝大多数其他人所犯的错误是，他们停留在自己的小利基市场。

So the strategy in the beginning that was genius and exactly what you should do as a startup, all of a sudden, when they didn't expand and set the agenda, the design for the big category, they got fucked.

所以一开始的策略是天才的，也是作为一家初创公司应该做的，突然之间，当他们没有扩展和设定议程，为大类别设计时，他们就完蛋了。

Because now they're niched.

因为现在他们已经被定位了。

And there's a big learning in this Lenny, which is, if you're a company that's already up and running and you're winning, and let's say you're becoming the category queen in your space, every entrepreneur, every CEO, faces a fascinating moment.

莱尼身上有一个重要的教训，那就是，如果你是一家已经成立并正在运营的公司，并且你正在获胜，假设你正在成为你所在领域的品类女王，那么每个企业家、每个首席执行官都会面临一个迷人的时刻。

If they become successful in the first five years or so, which is they realize their biggest barrier to growth going forward, is their current category, because you can only be as big and successful as your market category.

如果他们在前五年左右取得成功，他们就会意识到未来增长的最大障碍是他们当前的类别，因为你只能像你的市场类别一样大和成功。

Christopher Lochhead: And so you have to continuously expand the vision for the category and continuously build on that.

Christopher Lochhead：因此，你必须不断扩大该类别的愿景，并在此基础上不断发展。

And if you don't, and somebody else frames, claims, and names, the bigger agenda, as has been the case, and look, I'm biased, as has been the case with Clary, Clary's crushing everybody in this space right now, and the Gongs and all the other players are now in this horrible position, which is they basically only have two choices.

如果你不这样做，其他人就会制定、主张和点名，更大的议程，就像现在的情况一样，看，我有偏见，就像克拉里的情况一样，克拉里现在压垮了这个领域的所有人，而锣和所有其他球员现在都处于这个可怕的境地，他们基本上只有两个选择。

One, they can stay in their niche, which is what most players do, and they argue best of breed "Oh, well, we're the best revenue carbodingulator.

第一，他们可以留在自己的利基市场，这是大多数玩家所做的，他们认为最好的品种“哦，好吧，我们是最好的收入碳化商。

And you could go buy an end-to-end revenue platform.

你可以去购买一个端到端的收入平台。

But if you do that, you won't get the best functionality in the carbodingulator space.

但如果您这样做，您将无法获得碳化器领域的最佳功能。

So buy our revenue carbodingulator." That doesn't work.

所以购买我们的收益碳化机。”那是行不通的。

Microsoft proved it over 30 years ago, and we can talk about that if you want.

Microsoft 30 多年前就证明了这一点，如果您愿意，我们可以讨论这一点。

Christopher Lochhead: Microsoft proved it over 30 years ago, and we can talk about that if you want.

Christopher Lochhead：微软 30 多年前就证明了这一点，如果您愿意，我们可以讨论这一点。

You either stay in your niche and get diminished over time, or you uplevel and you go to play for the whole enchilada.

你要么停留在自己的利基市场，随着时间的推移而被削弱，要么你升级，然后去玩整个辣酱玉米饼馅。

The problem is for them and all the others in this space who didn't do that, if they were to do it today, well over a year after Clari did, they're just a Clari copycat.

问题在于，对于他们和这个领域中所有其他没有这样做的人来说，如果他们今天这样做，在 Clari 这样做一年多之后，他们只是 Clari 的模仿者。

And so basically you either go compete with Clari for who can be the category king, or you stay in your niche and get diminished over time.

所以基本上你要么与 Clari 竞争谁可以成为类别之王，要么你留在自己的利基市场并随着时间的推移而被削弱。

And if you're going to go compete with the company that is laying down the category design that's picking up the most momentum for the overall market, you better know how to do a fifth dan black belt category wars.

如果您要与正在制定类别设计、为整个市场带来最大动力的公司竞争，您最好知道如何进行第五段黑带类别战争。

Lenny: Following that thread, there's a bunch of threads I'd love to follow, but something I definitely wanted to touch on is, in this concept of the better trap, which is where most people go, where they try to be the better solution in an existing category.

莱尼：沿着这条线索，有很多我很想追随的线索，但我绝对想谈的是，在更好的陷阱的概念中，这是大多数人都会去的地方，他们试图成为现有类别中更好的解决方案。

And just to reinforce that point, what have you seen?

为了强调这一点，你看到了什么？

What have you learned about just why that is often, and maybe always the wrong approach?

您了解到为什么这常常是、也许总是错误的方法？

Christopher Lochhead: Let's take a very current example, Threads.

Christopher Lochhead：让我们举一个非常流行的例子，Threads。

We just wrote about this.

我们刚刚写过这个。

When Threads came out, and I can show you all the headlines if you want to see them, New York Times, nevermind tech...

当 Threads 出来时，如果你想看的话，我可以给你看所有的头条新闻，《纽约时报》，更不用说科技了……

All these places.

所有这些地方。

Twitter killer, Twitter killer, Twitter killer, Twitter killer.

推特杀手，推特杀手，推特杀手，推特杀手。

And at the time there's all this discussion of Musk and Zuck having a UFC cage fight.

当时大家都在讨论马斯克和扎克进行 UFC 笼斗。

And so there's all this buildup into the launch of Threads and there's all this supposed Twitter hate, and, quote, unquote, "Everybody's leaving Twitter." All right.

因此，随着 Threads 的推出，所有这些都在积累，所有这些所谓的 Twitter 仇恨，以及，引用或取消引用，“每个人都在离开 Twitter。”好的。

So Threads comes out.

于是Threads就出来了。

What happens?

会发生什么？

Threads surpasses GPT as the fastest growing app ever.

Threads 超越 GPT 成为有史以来增长最快的应用程序。

Christopher Lochhead: Now the headlines, Lenny, are coming.

Christopher Lochhead：莱尼，现在头条新闻来了。

This is it.

就是这样。

Zuck's a genius.

扎克是个天才。

It's incredible.

太不可思议了。

And by the way, this sits inside one of the newer stupid axioms in Silicon Valley.

顺便说一句，这是硅谷最新的愚蠢公理之一。

So this is a side note, but when somebody says something in Silicon Valley that enough people think, "Yes, that's smart." They just parrot it.

所以这是一个旁注，但当有人在硅谷说出一些让足够多的人认为的事情时，“是的，这很聪明。”他们只是鹦鹉学舌。

They don't actually think about it.

他们实际上并没有考虑这个问题。

There's a current thinking in Silicon Valley, and this was real loud as Threads was coming out, this was the reason why Threads was the Twitter killer.

目前硅谷有一种想法，当 Threads 出现时，这种想法确实很响亮，这就是 Threads 成为 Twitter 杀手的原因。

What you need, Lenny, is brand and distribution.

莱尼，你需要的是品牌和分销。

That's what you need, especially distribution.

这就是你所需要的，尤其是分发。

I would assert to you that Threads had the greatest distribution advantage of any new piece of software ever launched.

我可以向您断言，Threads 在所有推出的新软件中拥有最大的分发优势。

If there's another one that has a greater distribution advantage, I'd like to know what it is.

如果还有一种具有更大的分销优势，我想知道它是什么。

Lenny: No, that seems right.

莱尼：不，这似乎是对的。

Seems right.

看来是对的。

Christopher Lochhead: Massive distribution, incredible, easy up and on, incredible.

Christopher Lochhead：大规模发行，令人难以置信，轻松上手，令人难以置信。

Free product, not even freemium, free.

免费产品，甚至不是免费增值，免费。

Awesome.

惊人的。

And Facebook Meta, you tell me, one of the 10 most powerful brands in tech?

Facebook Meta，你告诉我，科技领域十大最强大的品牌之一？

Christopher Lochhead: How many users does Facebook have today, Lenny, do you know?

Christopher Lochhead：Lenny，Facebook 现在有多少用户，你知道吗？

Lenny: Over a billion?

莱尼：超过十亿？

Might be more.

可能更多。

Christopher Lochhead: How many billion person apps have there been in the history of apps?

Christopher Lochhead：应用程序历史上有多少个十亿人的应用程序？

Christopher Lochhead: Legendary brand, the greatest distribution advantage in history.

Christopher Lochhead：传奇品牌，历史上最大的分销优势。

What happened?

发生了什么？

It cratered.

它出现了坑洼。

It's gone.

它消失了。

It's still there, but nobody's there.

它还在那里，但没有人在那里。

Lenny: They're launching the soon so they have another shot.

莱尼：他们很快就会推出，所以他们还有另一个机会。

Christopher Lochhead: Oh yeah.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：哦，是的。

Now why, why did that happen?

现在为什么，为什么会发生这种事？

Why did one of the richest people in the history of the world, who's potentially one of the smartest people in the history of entrepreneurship in tech, fail so miserably when the entire world said he was going to "kill," quote, unquote, Twitter?

为什么世界历史上最富有的人之一，可能是科技创业史上最聪明的人之一，当全世界都说他要“杀死”（引用或取消引用）Twitter 时，他却失败得如此悲惨？

And after the initial, quote, "success" of Threads everybody said that's exactly what was going to happen.

在 Threads 最初的“成功”之后，每个人都说这正是即将发生的事情。

And now all those experts are surprisingly quiet.

现在所有这些专家都出奇地安静。

The legendary Kevin Maney said that category design is a new lens on business.

传奇人物凯文·马尼 (Kevin Maney) 表示，品类设计是商业的新视角。

It's a different lens.

这是一个不同的镜头。

It's sits next to the product lens, it sits next to the competition lens, but it is equally important.

它位于产品镜头旁边，位于竞争镜头旁边，但它同样重要。

So here's what happened with Threads.

这就是线程发生的事情。

Christopher Lochhead: They attacked an existing, well-known, well understood, incredibly well-defined problem with a direct copy.

Christopher Lochhead：他们通过直接副本攻击了一个现有的、众所周知的、易于理解的、定义非常明确的问题。

They even were celebrating that it was Twitter, just better.

他们甚至庆祝这是 Twitter，而且更好。

They said virtually those words.

他们实际上说了这些话。

So known existing problem with a known existing solution that was, quote, unquote, "better" and integrated with the rest of the Meta shit.

已知的现有问题与已知的现有解决方案是，引用，不引用，“更好”并与元数据的其余部分集成。

Quote, "Everybody checked it out and everybody went away." Why?

引用：“每个人都检查过，然后每个人都离开了。”为什么？

Here's the aha.

这是啊哈。

Christopher Lochhead: Problems create categories, and you either have to A, solve a new problem, or B, reframe, name and claim an existing problem in a, I'm going to use these words on purpose, very different way.

Christopher Lochhead：问题创建类别，你要么必须A，解决一个新问题，要么B，重新构建，命名并声明a中现有的问题，我将有目的地使用这些词，以非常不同的方式。

And if you reframe the existing problem such that people see it in a different way, that's when they'll be open to a new solution.

如果你重新定义现有的问题，让人们以不同的方式看待它，那么他们就会愿意接受新的解决方案。

But the mistake is the impasses is on the wrong .

但错误就是僵局就错了。

The impasses is on the product.

僵局出在产品上。

Because we live in a world where just like the availability of oxygen, we believe the best product wins.

因为我们生活在一个就像氧气一样的世界，我们相信最好的产品会获胜。

Zuckerberg is going to blow in excess of a billion dollars on Threads and it will fail.

扎克伯格将在 Threads 上投入超过 10 亿美元，但它将会失败。

It already has failed.

它已经失败了。

Because you can't take an existing problem with an existing solution, launch exactly the same shit, tell the world it's better and have the world embrace it.

因为你不能用现有的解决方案来解决现有的问题，推出完全相同的东西，告诉世界它更好并让世界接受它。

Because the problem makes the solution the other way around.

因为问题使解决方案反过来了。

Lenny: So classic advice along these lines is, if you're, say, 10 times better than the existing product, you have a good chance at getting people to care and having success.

Lenny：因此，经典的建议是，如果你的产品比现有产​​品好 10 倍，那么你就有很好的机会让人们关心并取得成功。

Is there a line of just like it's the same thing but 10 times better?

是否有一句台词是一样的，但好 10 倍？

Or do you have to, in your experience, reframe?

或者根据您的经验，您是否必须重新构建？

And I want to talk about that.

我想谈谈这个。

Christopher Lochhead: Let's just look at the evidence.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：让我们看看证据。

We could agree that Jeff Bezos is not a dumb person, yes?

我们可以同意杰夫·贝佐斯不是一个愚蠢的人，是吗？

Christopher Lochhead: Do you have an Amazon Fire phone?

Christopher Lochhead：您有 Amazon Fire 手机吗？

Lenny: I'm very happy with my iPhone.

莱尼：我对我的 iPhone 非常满意。

Christopher Lochhead: And so, Bezos launched a better product and nobody bought it.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：因此，贝索斯推出了更好的产品，但没有人购买。

And the reason nobody bought it is the problem.

没有人买它的原因就是问题所在。

And therefore the solution that you think you're solving with your iPhone is solved with your iPhone.

因此，您认为可以用 iPhone 解决的解决方案实际上可以用 iPhone 解决。

When was the last time you enjoyed a Red Bull Cola?

您最后一次享用红牛可乐是什么时候？

Christopher Lochhead: Red Bull made exactly the same mistake that Zuck just made with threads.

Christopher Lochhead：红牛犯了和扎克在线程方面犯的完全相同的错误。

What Red Bull believed was, "We built one of the greatest brands in the world." Which they have, but they didn't understand why.

红牛坚信，“我们打造了世界上最伟大的品牌之一。”他们有，但他们不明白为什么。

The category made the brand not the other way around.

类别造就了品牌​​，而不是相反。

Energy Drink made the category, so they go, "Great, we can put our brand on anything and it'll sell.

能量饮料创造了这个类别，所以他们说，“太棒了，我们可以把我们的品牌放在任何东西上，它就会畅销。

So let's make Cola." They lost a bazillion dollars.

那么我们来做可乐吧。”他们损失了无数美元。

It's reported that Microsoft lost somewhere between 400 and a billion dollars in Microsoft Stores.

据报道，微软在微软商店损失了 400 到 10 亿美元。

Did you ever go to a Microsoft store, Lenny?

莱尼，你去过微软商店吗？

Lenny: I walked by them in the mall and I don't think I've ever entered.

莱尼：我在商场里经过他们，但我想我从来没有进去过。

Christopher Lochhead: Well, they look exactly...

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：嗯，他们看起来一模一样……

If you remember, they look exactly like an Apple Store.

如果你还记得的话，它们看起来和苹果专卖店一模一样。

And Ballmer famously told the team, when the Apple Stores took off, he famously told the team, "Go to the Apple Stores, study everything they're doing and let's copy it exactly." Google that shit, it's out there.

鲍尔默对团队说过一句著名的话，当苹果专卖店腾飞时，他对团队说：“去苹果专卖店，研究他们正在做的一切，让我们准确地复制它。”谷歌一下，就在那里。

Well, it didn't work.

好吧，这没有用。

Why?

为什么？

Because you can't attack an incumbent category queen unless you frame, name and claim a new or different problem.

因为除非你提出、命名并提出一个新的或不同的问题，否则你无法攻击现有的类别女王。

Because when the existing problem is well understood and the existing solution is well understood, there's no need for a new solution.

因为当现有的问题和现有的解决方案都被很好地理解时，就不需要新的解决方案。

Even if people, quote, unquote, "hate Twitter," didn't do anything to Twitter, and now Zuck's going to have to write off probably over a billion dollars on Threads.

即使人们无论引用还是不引用，“讨厌 Twitter”，没有对 Twitter 做任何事情，现在扎克将不得不在 Threads 上注销可能超过 10 亿美元。

And the funny thing is, Lenny, this just keeps happening over and over and over.

有趣的是，莱尼，这种事不断地发生。

Venture capitalists in the next five years will blow at least half a trillion dollars in the AI space alone, on me too, demand chasing existing category competing startups that have a 10x better product, no one cares.

未来五年，风险投资家将在人工智能领域投入至少 5000 亿美元，对我来说也是如此，追逐现有类别竞争初创公司的需求，这些初创公司拥有 10 倍更好的产品，没有人在乎。

Christopher Lochhead: And look, we're all going to sit here and watch them do it.

Christopher Lochhead：看，我们都会坐在这里看着他们做这件事。

And we, category pirates, and those of us in the category design world will say, "Told you." And they're just going to keep doing it.

我们，品类盗版者，以及我们这些品类设计界的人会说，“告诉过你了。”他们只会继续这样做。

More importantly, because the big companies in many cases can afford to continue to fail and make this mistake.

更重要的是，因为大公司在很多情况下可以承受继续失败和犯这种错误的代价。

The tragedy in this is how many legendary innovative products never got to see the light of day because the inventor, the creator, the entrepreneur, believed in the product, but didn't know that every solution has to fit into a problem of value for people.

悲剧在于，有多少传奇的创新产品从未问世，因为发明者、创造者、企业家相信产品，但不知道每一个解决方案都必须适应对人们有价值的问题。

And so their innovation went nowhere.

所以他们的创新毫无进展。

Lenny: Let's talk about how to actually go about designing a category.

Lenny：我们来谈谈如何实际设计一个类别。

You've used this phrase a few times, and that may be the best lens to approach it.

您已经多次使用过这句话，这可能是理解它的最佳镜头。

If not, we can go at it from a different direction.

如果没有，我们可以从不同的方向着手。

But this idea of framing, naming, and claiming, how do you do that?

但是这种框架、命名和主张的想法，你是如何做到的呢？

What's that process like?

那个过程是怎样的？

Christopher Lochhead: Great question.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：好问题。

It starts somewhere where most people don't want to start, and that is, the first law of category design is thinking about thinking is the most important kind of thinking.

它从大多数人不想开始的地方开始，那就是，品类设计的第一定律是思考，思考是最重要的一种思考。

Thinking about thinking is the most important kind of thinking.

思考思考是最重要的一种思考。

If you're going to think about thinking, we have to define thinking.

如果你要思考思考，我们就必须定义思考。

Now, the minute I start down this path, there's a meaningful percentage of people whose eyes rolling, going, "Here comes some bullshit," right?

现在，当我开始走这条路的那一刻，就有相当一部分人翻白眼，说：“这是一些废话，”对吗？

"Just tell me how to do the SEO, Lenny.

“请告诉我如何进行搜索引擎优化，莱尼。

Where's the SEO?

搜索引擎优化在哪里？

Or where's the..." Whatever the tactical thing is.

或者……”无论战术是什么。

Christopher Lochhead: So the first thing we have to do is break down thinking.

Christopher Lochhead：所以我们要做的第一件事就是打破思维。

Roger Martin is considered to be the greatest management thinker, or certainly one of them alive today.

罗杰·马丁被认为是最伟大的管理思想家，或者肯定是当今在世的管理思想家之一。

We were lucky enough to have him on the podcast when his most recent book came out, which if I'm remembering correctly, is called the New Way to think.

当他的最新书出版时，我们很幸运地邀请他加入播客，如果我没记错的话，这本书被称为“新思维方式”。

People call him the new Peter Drucker.

人们称他为新彼得·德鲁克。

And he describes it as effectively as anyone I've ever heard.

他的描述和我听过的任何人一样有效。

And at a high level, and this is me paraphrasing, so give me some license, but he's the source.

在高层次上，这是我的解释，所以给我一些许可，但他是消息来源。

At a high level there's two kinds of thinking, reflective and reflexive.

在高层次上有两种思维：反思性思维和反身性思维。

And now, this is my editorializing.

现在，这是我的社论。

What most people think is reflective thinking is actually reflexive thinking.

大多数人认为的反思性思维实际上是反思性思维。

What's reflex versus reflective?

什么是反射与反射？

Reflex is simple.

反射很简单。

You go for an annual checkup, yes?

你每年都会去体检，是吗？

Christopher Lochhead: Have you ever had a doctor whack your knee with the little pink?

Christopher Lochhead：你有没有让医生用小粉红敲击过你的膝盖？

Christopher Lochhead: And she's testing your reflexes.

Christopher Lochhead：她正在测试你的反应能力。

And that's an involuntary thing, when you're sitting on the doctor's table and your legs are hanging like a little kid and she goes whack, your leg just does this twitch, right?

这是一种不自觉的事情，当你坐在医生的桌子上，你的腿像个小孩子一样悬垂着，而她突然瘫痪时，你的腿就会抽搐，对吗？

So that's a reflex.

所以这是一种反射。

And reflexive thinking is very, very powerful.

反思性思维非常非常强大。

You have a driver's license, I'm guessing.

我猜你有驾照。

Christopher Lochhead: And when was the last time you were in a vehicle, driving?

Christopher Lochhead：您最后一次开车是什么时候？

Christopher Lochhead: And if you're out on the road driving and somebody cuts you off, what are you likely to do?

Christopher Lochhead：如果你在路上开车，有人抢道，你会怎么做？

Lenny: I get a little upset and then I keep driving.

莱尼：我有点不高兴，然后我就继续开车。

Christopher Lochhead: But I would assert, Lenny, you do something before you get upset.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：但我想说，莱尼，你在感到不安之前应该做点什么。

Lenny: I guess I try to avoid hitting this car.

莱尼：我想我会尽量避免撞到这辆车。

Christopher Lochhead: Yes.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：是的。

And maybe you swerve, maybe you hit the brakes, maybe you do both.

也许你突然转向，也许你踩刹车，也许你两者都做。

My point is this, the car cuts you off and we instantly, no thinking, react in order to save our lives, not damage our vehicles, not hurt anybody else.

我的观点是，汽车挡住了你的路，我们立即不假思索地做出反应，以挽救我们的生命，不损坏我们的车辆，不伤害其他任何人。

We didn't think about that.

我们没有考虑这一点。

We literally just reacted.

我们实际上只是做出了反应。

That's the way people think about most things.

这就是人们思考大多数事情的方式。

I say to you, Lenny, let's talk about guns and abortion and immigration rights in America.

我对你说，莱尼，让我们谈谈美国的枪支、堕胎和移民权利。

Christopher Lochhead: Now you have opinions about those things, right?

Christopher Lochhead：现在你对这些事情有看法了，对吧？

Christopher Lochhead: As do I.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：我也是。

Most people don't challenge their own thinking.

大多数人不会挑战自己的想法。

Most people say, "Now, why do I only think what I think about abortion?

大多数人说：“现在，为什么我只考虑我对堕胎的看法？

Where did I learn that?

我从哪里学到的？

What do I really think about abortion?

我对堕胎的真正看法是什么？

What do others think about abortion?

其他人对堕胎有何看法？

Are there smart people in the world that I admire who are more educated and experienced in this field that have meaningfully different opinions than my own?

世界上是否有我钦佩的聪明人，他们在这个领域受过更多教育、更有经验，但他们的观点与我的观点截然不同？

There are.

有。

Why is that?" Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

这是为什么？”等等，等等，等等。

We don't fucking do that, we say our opinion on abortion is the opinion on abortion.

我们他妈才不这么做，我们说我们对堕胎的看法就是对堕胎的看法。

And in the United States of America in the political domain we say, "And anybody who thinks differently is trying to kill America." That's not thinking.

在美利坚合众国的政治领域，我们说：“任何有不同想法的人都在试图杀死美国。”那不是思考。

So reflexive thinking is, what do I really think?

所以反射性思维是，我真正的想法是什么？

Why do I think that?

我为什么这么认为？

And in the business world, most people unconsciously assume the future is a continuation of the past.

在商业世界中，大多数人无意识地认为未来是过去的延续。

That's not what legendary entrepreneurs do.

这不是传奇企业家所做的事情。

Legendary entrepreneurs don't just think they know the future is going to be different, because they're designing that different future.

传奇企业家不仅仅认为他们知道未来会有所不同，因为他们正在设计不同的未来。

And the problem they're focused on matters to them so much that the fact that the problem continues to persist makes them batshit crazy.

他们所关注的问题对他们来说非常重要，以至于问题持续存在的事实让他们抓狂。

RJ...

瑞吉...

Is it RJ or JR?

是RJ还是JR？

I can't remember now...

我现在记不清了...

The founder of Rivian, obviously Musk at Tesla, these guys are obsessed.

Rivian 的创始人，显然是特斯拉的马斯克，这些家伙很着迷。

It drives them insane.

这让他们发疯。

They don't understand why we're not all in EVs already.

他们不明白为什么我们还没有全部使用电动汽车。

Christopher Lochhead: And so my friend Mike Maples, the legendary venture capitalist from Floodgate, says, "The greatest entrepreneurs are visitors from the future telling us how it's going to be." And the reason many of them are so irascible is because the fact that the present is not already at the future that they see makes them insane.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：所以我的朋友迈克·梅普尔斯（来自洪水之门的传奇风险投资家）说：“最伟大的企业家是来自未来的访客，告诉我们未来将会如何。”他们中的许多人之所以如此暴躁，是因为现在还不是他们所看到的未来，这一事实让他们变得疯狂。

And so the point being legendary entrepreneurs and creators make the future different.

因此，成为传奇企业家和创造者的意义在于让未来变得不同。

They literally are in the design different futures business.

他们实际上是在设计不同的期货业务。

Can I tell you a story?

我可以给你讲一个故事吗？

Christopher Lochhead: We're friends, and we've done some work with the guys who created Lomi.

Christopher Lochhead：我们是朋友，我们与创建 Lomi 的人一起做了一些工作。

And Lomi is the first kitchen appliance in 20 years to earn a spot on the kitchen counter.

Lomi 是 20 年来第一款在厨房柜台上占有一席之地的厨房用具。

A, it's one of the fastest growing new consumer items in the last 20 years.

答：它是过去 20 年来增长最快的新消费品之一。

And B, if you think about your kitchen counter, do you have a toaster?

B，如果你想想你的厨房柜台，你有烤面包机吗？

Lenny: Yeah, I don't drink too much coffee, but we do have one.

莱尼：是的，我不喝太多咖啡，但我们有一杯。

Christopher Lochhead: Any other devices on the kitchen counter?

Christopher Lochhead：厨房柜台上还有其他设备吗？

Lenny: We got a rice cooker and the rest is hidden away.

莱尼：我们有一个电饭锅，其余的都藏起来了。

Christopher Lochhead: Perfect.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：完美。

So what's Lomi?

那么洛米是什么？

Lomi is the category designer of the smart home composter.

Lomi是智能家居堆肥机的品类设计师。

Imagine a device that's one and a half or twice the size of a good size toaster.

想象一下，一个设备的大小是一个大尺寸烤面包机的一倍半或两倍。

And what Lomi does is you take your food scraps, and it turns out that depending on whose numbers you want to believe, in America, we throw away somewhere between 40 to 60% of our food.

洛米所做的就是你拿走你的食物残渣，结果发现，在美国，我们会扔掉 40% 到 60% 的食物，这取决于你愿意相信谁的数字。

And it turns out that food garbage, food waste is some of the most damaging to the environment.

事实证明，食物垃圾是对环境破坏最大的垃圾之一。

So what does Lomi do?

那么洛米做什么呢？

You take your food scraps, you dump it into Lomi, you fill that shit up, Lomi's got a button on the front, you press that button, and what used to take three to six months to compost gets composted in three to six hours.

你把食物残渣倒进Lomi，把那堆东西填满，Lomi前面有一个按钮，你按下那个按钮，过去需要三到六个月才能堆肥的东西在三到六个小时内就能堆肥。

Christopher Lochhead: And even, this is weird, it smells good to me.

Christopher Lochhead：甚至，这很奇怪，对我来说闻起来很香。

Lomi did not say that, "we're better garbage, that we're different garbage, that we're better recycling." What they said was, "We are a different way of solving this huge problem." And they use both personal motivation, nobody likes throwing out garbage, nobody likes a big mess in their kitchen, et cetera, and an altruistic vision, which is...

洛米并没有说，“我们是更好的垃圾，我们是不同的垃圾，我们是更好的回收品。”他们说的是，“我们用不同的方式来解决这个巨大的问题。”他们既利用个人动机，没有人喜欢扔垃圾，没有人喜欢厨房里一团糟等等，还有利他主义的愿景，那就是……

And oh by the way, if we do this, we will do something that governments heretofore have not been able to do, which is take a massive amount of environment hurting gases out of the atmosphere.

哦，顺便说一句，如果我们这样做，我们将做一些政府迄今为止无法做到的事情，那就是从大气中去除大量对环境有害的气体。

And it turns out because of global climate change that we're creating more and more sand and we have dirt traces.

事实证明，由于全球气候变化，我们产生了越来越多的沙子，并且留下了污垢痕迹。

Lomi dirt has been shown to be amongst the most nutrient rich dirt in the world.

洛米泥土已被证明是世界上营养最丰富的泥土之一。

Here is a company with a breakthrough technology that truly makes a difference in the world with a business model that allows them to build a highly profitable high growth business.

这是一家拥有突破性技术的公司，真正改变了世界，其商业模式使他们能够建立高利润、高增长的业务。

Christopher Lochhead: And the way they got there was by designing a new category and showing the world why, by making room in your tight kitchen for this new device, you'll make a difference for your family and the world.

Christopher Lochhead：他们实现这一目标的方法是设计一个新类别，并向世界展示为什么通过在狭小的厨房中为这款新设备腾出空间，您将为您的家人和世界带来改变。

And if all they had done was what, by way of example, Dean Kamen did when he launched the segue, which is, isn't this cool?

如果他们所做的一切都是迪安·卡门（Dean Kamen）在推出 Segue 时所做的事情，那就是，这不是很酷吗？

Nothing would've happened.

什么事都不会发生。

So my point is, the Lomi guys designed a product, a company, and a new market category.

所以我的观点是，Lomi 人设计了一种产品、一家公司和一个新的市场类别。

They created demand out of nothing for, I think the average price is around 400 bucks.

他们无中生有地创造了需求，我认为平均价格在 400 美元左右。

The sum total of the market for smart home composters when they launched was fucking zero.

智能家居堆肥机推出时，其市场总量简直为零。

And their vision for the new category was so compelling, Jay-Z was one of their first investors.

他们对新类别的愿景非常引人注目，Jay-Z 是他们的首批投资者之一。

Lenny: I have their site up.

莱尼：我已经建立了他们的网站。

Thinking about this framework of, frame it, name it, claim it, they framed the problem in this unique way of...

思考这个框架，构建它，命名它，声明它，他们以这种独特的方式构建问题......

Is it the framing of the problem or framing of a solution?

是问题的框架还是解决方案的框架？

The framing step, best way to think about that.

框架步骤，思考这个问题的最佳方式。

Christopher Lochhead: There's something in category design called languaging, which is the strategic use of language to change thinking.

Christopher Lochhead：品类设计中有一种叫做语言的东西，它是战略性地使用语言来改变思维。

And a mistake that a lot of entrepreneurs make is they use old language to describe their new thing.

许多企业家犯的一个错误是他们使用旧的语言来描述他们的新事物。

And we can't use so much new language that nobody knows what the fuck we're talking about, so we have to meet the category where it is and bring them forward, but we have to create new language.

我们不能使用太多新语言，以至于没有人知道我们在说什么，所以我们必须满足它所在的类别并推动它们前进，但我们必须创造新语言。

Can I share with you one of my favorite, most recent, favorite category design stories in this regard?

我可以跟大家分享一个我最喜欢的、最近的、最喜欢的这方面的品类设计故事吗？

Christopher Lochhead: You've been on an elevator, yes?

Christopher Lochhead：你坐过电梯，是吗？

Christopher Lochhead: Have you ever looked at the floor and seen a logo on the floor of the elevator?

Christopher Lochhead：你有没有看过电梯地板上有一个标志？

Christopher Lochhead: Well, if you do, you'll more than likely see this name, Otis.

Christopher Lochhead：好吧，如果你这样做，你很可能会看到这个名字，奥蒂斯。

Otis Elevator.

奥的斯电梯。

Most people don't know why Otis is the category queen of elevators.

大多数人不知道为什么奥的斯是电梯品类女王。

Well, here's why.

嗯，这就是原因。

Elisha Otis invented the elevator.

伊丽莎·奥蒂斯发明了电梯。

Now, pre-Elisha, there were no skyscrapers.

现在，在以利沙之前，还没有摩天大楼。

Because how could you get to the top floor?

因为你怎么能到顶楼呢？

How could you build the top floor, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

你怎么能建造顶层，等等，等等，等等。

So when he creates the elevator, there's no known problem for it to solve.

因此，当他创造电梯时，并没有需要解决的已知问题。

So he demonstrates it, people think it's cool.

所以他展示了这一点，人们认为这很酷。

He shows it at like fares and shit.

他以票价之类的价格展示它。

Because the big problem with prior elevators was they would crash.

因为以前的电梯的一个大问题是它们会坠毁。

And so he built this safety system to catch them if the wiring would crash.

因此，他建立了这个安全系统，以便在线路发生故障时抓住他们。

And the category name, he actually used, Lenny, he called it the safety elevator to address the current problem in the space, which is...

而类别名称，他实际上使用的是，莱尼，他称之为安全电梯，以解决当前空间中的问题，那就是……

I don't know.

我不知道。

People still went, "That's interesting, but why do I need a safety elevator?" It's a solution with no problem.

人们仍然会说：“这很有趣，但为什么我需要安全电梯呢？”这是一个没有问题的解决方案。

Christopher Lochhead: So what does he do?

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：那么他是做什么的？

Languaging.

语言。

And in category design, one of the breakthroughs is this thing called a point of view, which helps you frame, claim and name a problem and educate the world on why they should move from the way it is to, we call them frotos, from to, a new and different way.

在品类设计中，突破之一就是所谓的观点，它可以帮助你构建、主张和命名问题，并教育世界为什么他们应该从现在的方式转变为我们称之为“frotos”的新的、不同的方式。

So Elisha has to make the market, there's zero demand.

所以以利沙必须创造市场，需求为零。

It's what many of our smart VC friends call a zero billion market, which is what you want.

这就是我们很多聪明的VC朋友所说的零亿市场，这就是你想要的。

So what does Elisha call it?

那么以利沙怎么称呼它呢？

The vertical...

垂直...

Railway

铁路

Christopher Lochhead: And people understand what a railway does.

Christopher Lochhead：人们了解铁路的作用。

It moves people and shit this way.

它以这种方式感动人们并拉屎。

And he said, "Great, we've now got a vertical elevator that moves people and shit this way." And if you have a vertical elevator-

他说：“太好了，我们现在有了一部垂直电梯，可以运送人们并以这种方式拉屎。”如果你有垂直电梯-

Christopher Lochhead: A vertical railway, thank you.

Christopher Lochhead：垂直铁路，谢谢。

You can have a new category of building.

你可以拥有一个新的建筑类别。

This is no different than anybody today, for example, in the technology space, who's building a new part of the technology stack for AI.

这与当今技术领域的任何人没有什么不同，他们正在为人工智能构建技术堆栈的新部分。

So if you've got a new important security layer for AI that enables a new highly secure AI application.

因此，如果您拥有一个新的重要的人工智能安全层，可以实现新的高度安全的人工智能应用程序。

From a languaging perspective, if you just use existing languaging, you'll be like Elisha in the beginning where people go, "That's really cool, man.

从语言的角度来看，如果你只使用现有的语言，你就会像一开始的以利沙一样，人们会说：“这真的很酷，伙计。

Fucking A, didn't think that was technically possible.

该死的A，认为这在技术上是不可能的。

Wow.

哇。

It's like you've broken gravity, dude, incredible.

就像你打破了重力一样，伙计，太不可思议了。

Don't know why we'd ever need this.

不知道为什么我们需要这个。

See you." And he goes, "Wait a minute, wait a minute.

再见。”他说：“等一下，等一下。

What if it was a vertical railway?" "Well, what could we do with a vertical railway?"

如果这是一条垂直铁路呢？” “那么，我们可以用垂直铁路做什么呢？”

Christopher Lochhead: This is why thinking matters.

Christopher Lochhead：这就是为什么思考很重要。

The way you think about the problem, the way you frame claim and name the problem.

你思考问题的方式，你提出主张和命名问题的方式。

One of the core tenets, Lenny, in category design is listen to the words.

莱尼，品类设计的核心原则之一就是倾听。

Listen to the words.

听听这些话。

And when you listen to the words, you will hear things that you don't normally.

当你听这些话时，你会听到平时听不到的东西。

And so he created new languaging, what in category design is called a point of view, to frame, claim and name a problem, which is, how do I move up and down versus across land?

因此，他创造了新的语言，在品类设计中被称为观点，来框架、主张和命名一个问题，即，与跨陆地相比，我如何上下移动？

And in so doing the aperture of people's minds created what you could think of as new mental scaffolding for a whole new kind of innovation.

在此过程中，人们思维的缝隙创造了一种全新的创新的新思维支架。

And thanks to Elisha Otis, we have tall buildings.

感谢伊丽莎·奥蒂斯，我们拥有了高楼大厦。

Lenny: I really like this idea of languaging.

莱尼：我真的很喜欢这种语言的想法。

Are there any other examples come to mind, awesome examples of languaging in action that worked out?

是否还有其他例子，在行动中运用语言的精彩例子？

Christopher Lochhead: I got a bazillion of them.

Christopher Lochhead：我有无数这样的东西。

Another one of my favorites.

另一件我最喜欢的。

When Starbucks first starts a coffee is 10 cents.

星巴克刚开业的时候一杯咖啡是10美分。

You sit there and you go, "We can't make money at 10 cents." That doesn't make sense, right?

你坐在那里说：“我们不能以 10 美分的价格赚钱。”这没有道理，对吧？

Unit economics don't work for what we're trying to get done.

单位经济学并不适合我们想要完成的事情。

If the ASP in the industry is 10 cents, we want to have an ASP of three bucks.

如果行业的 ASP 是 10 美分，我们希望 ASP 是 3 美元。

Fuck.

他妈的。

Well, here's the aha.

嗯，这是啊哈。

It's very hard to charge three bucks for a thing that everybody currently pays a quarter for, if you call it the same thing.

如果你称它为同一件事，那么目前每个人都支付四分之一的东西很难收取三美元。

Christopher Lochhead: So they create new languaging, they teach, they literally teach consumers new language.

Christopher Lochhead：所以他们创造了新的语言，他们教授，他们实际上教消费者新的语言。

That's why you and I walk into Starbucks and say, "I'd like a double grande latte, please." 25 years ago, that was not languaging that you and I used.

这就是为什么你和我走进星巴克并说：“请给我一杯双份特级拿铁咖啡。” 25 年前，你和我使用的并不是这种语言。

And they use it as a mechanism for radical differentiation and radical value/price differentiation.

他们将其用作激进差异化和激进价值/价格差异化的机制。

And they made up the fucking word.

他们编造了这个该死的词。

It sounds kind of Italian, vente.

听起来有点意大利语，vente。

But the truth is, by the way, it's a milkshake, but that's a whole other conversation.

但事实是，顺便说一句，这是一杯奶昔，但那完全是另一回事了。

They're the number one milk seller in the country.

他们是全国排名第一的牛奶销售商。

They're a milk company, not a coffee company.

他们是一家牛奶公司，而不是一家咖啡公司。

But that's, again, a whole other conversation.

但这又是另一回事了。

The point being, if you want to charge three bucks for something that heretofore has been 10 cents or a quarter, change the language.

重点是，如果您想以 3 美元的价格购买此前 10 美分或 25 美分的商品，请更改语言。

And you know it's Starbucks language.

你知道这是星巴克的语言。

Where I live, there's a shit ton of new hipster independent coffee shop type places.

在我住的地方，有很多新的时髦独立咖啡店类型的地方。

Where they paint the Mona Lisa in your latte before-

他们之前在你的拿铁咖啡里画了蒙娜丽莎——

Christopher Lochhead: ...

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：...

where they paint the Mona Lisa in your latte before they give it to you and all that shit.

他们在你的拿铁咖啡里画了蒙娜丽莎，然后才把它给你等等。

If you walk into one of those hipster places and ask for a double grande latte, the super hipster gal or guy behind the counter with the nose ring and shit is going to give you a bit of a grizzle, because you are using Starbucks languaging in their location, and that's the other breakthrough.

如果你走进那些时髦的地方并要一杯双层拿铁，柜台后面戴着鼻环和狗屎的超级时髦女孩或家伙会让你有点困惑，因为你在他们的位置使用星巴克语言，这是另一个突破。

This is really important in the technology industry, the company that creates the languaging for the category wins.

这在技术行业中非常重要，为该类别创建语言的公司获胜。

Christopher Lochhead: Oh, you see that today, OpenAI.

Christopher Lochhead：哦，你今天看到了，OpenAI。

Not that long ago you did not hear the term large language model.

不久前您还没有听说过“大语言模型”这个术语。

Correct?

正确的？

Christopher Lochhead: That was not a term we were talking about.

Christopher Lochhead：我们讨论的不是这个术语。

Christopher Lochhead: And today the entire industry is talking about LLMs.

Christopher Lochhead：今天整个行业都在谈论法学硕士。

Here's another thing that they created, training data.

这是他们创建的另一件事，训练数据。

Well, those of us who've been around for a long time, we understand what data is.

好吧，我们这些已经存在很长时间的人，我们了解数据是什么。

We know what a database is, we know what data in motion is, we know what data at rest is.

我们知道什么是数据库，我们知道什么是动态数据，我们知道什么是静态数据。

We know what structured data is, we know what unstructured data is, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

我们知道什么是结构化数据，我们知道什么是非结构化数据，等等，等等。

Christopher Lochhead: I'm not a data expert by any stretch, but I've been in the industry for 37 years, I know some about shit data.

Christopher Lochhead：我绝对算不上数据专家，但我已经在这个行业工作了 37 年，我对垃圾数据了解一些。

We'd never heard the term training data, and I'm still frankly looking for a breakthrough in languaging to describe it to people, because I think when most people realize the difference between data/content and training data, there's a massive breakthrough that can occur there.

我们从未听说过训练数据这个术语，坦率地说，我仍在寻找语言上的突破来向人们描述它，因为我认为当大多数人意识到数据/内容和训练数据之间的区别时，那里可能会发生巨大的突破。

The languaging is still not sufficient, but we're getting there.

语言仍然不够，但我们已经达到了目标。

Christopher Lochhead: New languaging creates new thinking, and a demarcation point in language creates a demarcation point in thinking, which can create a demarcation point in perceived value, and she, who changes and or creates net new value perceptions wins.

Christopher Lochhead：新语言创造新思维，语言中的分界点创造了思维中的分界点，思维中的分界点可以创造感知价值的分界点，而改变和/或创造净新价值感知的她获胜。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Round.

莱尼：这一集是由 Round 为您带来的。

Round is the private network built by tech leaders for tech leaders.

Round 是由技术领导者为技术领导者构建的专用网络。

Round combines the best of coaching, learning, and authentic relationships to help you identify where you want to go and accelerate your path to get there, which is why their wait list tops thousands of tech execs.

Round 结合了最好的辅导、学习和真实的关系，帮助你确定你想要去的地方，并加速你到达那里的道路，这就是为什么他们的候补名单排在数千名技术高管的前面。

Round is on a mission to shape the future of technology and its impact on society.

Round 的使命是塑造技术的未来及其对社会的影响。

Lenny: Leading in tech is uniquely challenging, and doing it well is easiest when surrounded by leaders who understand your day-to-day experiences.

Lenny：科技领域的领导具有独特的挑战性，当周围都是了解你日常经历的领导者时，做好这项工作是最容易的。

When we're meeting and building relationships with the right people, we're more likely to learn, find new opportunities, be dynamic in our thinking and achieve our goals.

当我们与合适的人会面并建立关系时，我们更有可能学习、找到新的机会、充满活力的思维并实现我们的目标。

Building and managing your network doesn't have to feel like networking.

建立和管理你的网络并不一定像建立网络一样。

Join Round to surround yourself with leaders from tech's most innovative companies, build relationships, be inspired, take action.

加入 Round，与科技界最具创新力公司的领导者为伍，建立关系，受到启发，采取行动。

Visit round.tech/apply and use promo code Lenny to skip the wait list.

访问 round.tech/apply 并使用促销代码 Lenny 跳过等待名单。

That's round.tech/apply.

那是 round.tech/apply。

Lenny: I think you've made a very compelling case for why people should design a new category.

莱尼：我认为你已经提出了一个非常令人信服的案例来说明为什么人们应该设计一个新的类别。

To give people one more tactical tool for coming up with and figuring out the category they want to go after and framing it and even naming it, you mentioned this idea of having a point of view.

为了给人们提供一种更多的战术工具来提出和弄清楚他们想要追求的类别，并对其进行框架甚至命名，你提到了有观点的想法。

Maybe that's the best way to approach this question, or maybe there's another framework of just how can people best think through and spend time thinking about what this new category they should be creating ends up being?

也许这是解决这个问题的最佳方式，或者也许还有另一个框架，人们如何才能最好地思考并花时间思考他们应该创建的这个新类别最终会是什么？

Christopher Lochhead: Great question, Lenny.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：好问题，莱尼。

Two things, at least.

至少有两件事。

First, spend more time on the problem than the solution.

首先，花更多的时间在问题上而不是解决方案上。

There's a very early stage, security startup I'm working with right now in the AI space that's doing absolutely mind-boggling things, and the founders have incredible backgrounds with large transaction systems and deep security, just an incredible company.

我现在在人工智能领域与一家处于早期阶段的安全初创公司合作，他们正在做着绝对令人难以置信的事情，创始人拥有大型交易系统和深度安全性方面令人难以置信的背景，这是一家令人难以置信的公司。

Christopher Lochhead: I had a call yesterday with the founder and some folks on the product team just getting an update on where they're at and this and that and the other, and we're sort of starting to want to talk to people externally.

Christopher Lochhead：昨天我与创始人和产品团队的一些人通了电话，只是了解他们的最新情况以及这个、那个和另一个，我们有点开始​​想与外部人员交谈。

We've raised a seed round, VCs are coming, they're very ...

我们已经筹集了种子轮资金，风投即将到来，他们非常......

Anyway, we're sort of slowly starting to want to come into the world and begin to have a conversation.

不管怎样，我们慢慢地开始想要来到这个世界并开始交谈。

Christopher Lochhead: The founder CEO sends me a text yesterday and says, "I'd like you to, if you're open to it, have a call with so-and-so.

Christopher Lochhead：创始人首席执行官昨天给我发了一条短信，说：“如果您愿意的话，我希望您能与某某通电话。

He's a very important person, knows a lot about our space, blah blah.

他是一个非常重要的人，对我们的空间了解很多，等等。

Known him for a long time," dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

认识他很久了，“哒，哒，哒，哒，哒。

Great.

伟大的。

I said, "It sounds wonderful, but why?

我说：“听起来很棒，但为什么呢？

What's the purpose of my conversation with so-and-so?" The founder literally said to me, "I would love it if you would be willing to invest some time in listening to some of our customers to hear from their perspective what the problem is and what the solution could be, not just from me and our team."

我和某人谈话的目的是什么？”创始人对我说：“如果您愿意花一些时间倾听我们的一些客户的意见，从他们的角度了解问题所在以及解决方案可能是什么，而不仅仅是我和我们的团队，我会很高兴。”

Christopher Lochhead: That is a founder who's obsessed with the problem.

Christopher Lochhead：这是一位痴迷于这个问题的创始人。

That's the first piece.

这是第一块。

The second piece of advice I'll give you, I mentioned Mike Maples, he's got a very powerful way of framing this.

我给你的第二条建议，我提到了迈克·梅普尔斯（Mike Maples），他有一种非常有力的方式来构建这一点。

He calls it backcasting as distinct from forecasting.

他称之为回溯，与预测不同。

You're nodding your head, you're familiar with this.

你点点头，你很熟悉这个。

Lenny: Yeah, I've read this in length in the show notes, it's amazing.

莱尼：是的，我在演出笔记中详细读过这篇文章，太棒了。

Christopher Lochhead: Yeah.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：是的。

Here's the idea.

这是我的想法。

What most people do is you and I are entrepreneurs, we have this idea for a product, this problem we can solve.

大多数人所做的就是你和我都是企业家，我们有一个产品的想法，我们可以解决这个问题。

We think we're going to be bazillionaires, we think we're going to help a lot of people, we think we're going to have a lot of fun, and so we have at it.

我们认为我们将成为亿万富翁，我们认为我们将帮助很多人，我们认为我们将获得很多乐趣，所以我们做到了。

And whether we realize it or not, the mental scaffolding we use goes like this: Lenny and Christopher are sitting here now, we have these big dreams.

无论我们是否意识到，我们使用的心理支架都是这样的：莱尼和克里斯托弗现在坐在这里，我们有这些伟大的梦想。

We think, let's say, five years out into the future, "What do we want to do?

我们认为，五年后，“我们想做什么？

Oh .

哦。

Why don't we go through all the dreams?

我们为什么不去经历所有的梦想呢？

Great." Then we ask ourselves, most of this is subconscious and then it shows up in business plans and other things, "What do we need to do to get from here to there?" Have you ever done any backcountry hiking, Lenny?

太棒了。”然后我们问自己，其中大部分是潜意识的，然后它出现在商业计划和其他事情中，“我们需要做什么才能从这里到达那里？”莱尼，你参加过野外徒步旅行吗？

Christopher Lochhead: Yeah, so if you and I were going to go on a four or five-day trip in the Sierras, we would have a start point, right?

Christopher Lochhead：是的，所以如果你和我要在内华达山脉进行四天或五天的旅行，我们会有一个起点，对吗？

Christopher Lochhead: And we'd know where we were coming out, right?

Christopher Lochhead：我们会知道我们会去哪里，对吗？

Christopher Lochhead: And we'd have way points along the way, yes?

Christopher Lochhead：我们沿途会有航点，是吗？

Christopher Lochhead: Because we knew we were going to be out four days or six days or whatever, we would try to plan our food appropriately.

Christopher Lochhead：因为我们知道我们要出去四天或六天或其他时间，所以我们会尝试适当地计划我们的食物。

Christopher Lochhead: And the whole plan would be predicated on "We're going to start here and we're going to end here," and what do we need to do to get from where we start to where we end, yes?

Christopher Lochhead：整个计划将基于“我们将从这里开始，我们将在这里结束”，以及我们需要做什么才能从我们开始的地方到达我们结束的地方，是吗？

Christopher Lochhead: Now, when going on a backcountry hike, that's a very smart fucking thing to do, because if you've ever been on a backcountry hike and you're four days in only to realize you don't have enough food, that's an experience you don't want to recreate.

Christopher Lochhead：现在，当你去野外徒步旅行时，这是一件非常明智的事情，因为如果你曾经进行过野外徒步旅行，而你在四天后才意识到你没有足够的食物，那是一种你不想重现的经历。

Okay, turns out that while that's highly effective for a hike, it is intergalactic disaster for a startup.

好吧，事实证明，虽然这对于徒步旅行来说非常有效，但对于初创公司来说却是一场星际灾难。

Here's why.

原因如下。

Your point of reference is everything.

你的参考点就是一切。

Thinking about thinking is the most important kind of thinking.

思考思考是最重要的一种思考。

Christopher Lochhead: When we do it that way, mentally we are standing in the present, which is an extension of the past, and we're saying, "What do we need to do to go from this present to the different future we want, and what are the obstacles in the way?" Here's the mental scaffolding.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：当我们这样做时，在精神上我们就站在现在，这是过去的延伸，我们说，“我们需要做什么才能从现在走向我们想要的不同未来，路上有哪些障碍？”这是心理脚手架。

That's forecasting, here's backcasting.

这是预测，这里是回溯。

Christopher Lochhead: We do an exercise, we abandon everything.

Christopher Lochhead：我们做了一次练习，我们放弃了一切。

In category design you get taught to what's called reject the premise, so I reject everything about the way that it is, all of it.

在类别设计中，你被教导什么叫拒绝前提，所以我拒绝一切关于它本来的样子，所有的一切。

You and I now envision this future five years out and everything's gone incredibly, it's exceeded our expectations.

你和我现在设想五年后的未来，一切都发生得令人难以置信，超出了我们的预期。

We make that true in our minds.

我们在心中实现了这一点。

We write out, we brainstorm out "What's it going to be like?

我们写出来，集思广益“它会是什么样子？

What kind of technology are we selling?

我们销售什么样的技术？

What are we doing for customers?

我们为客户做什么？

How big's our company?

我们公司有多大？

How many people will hire?" Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

会雇用多少人？”达，达，达，达，达，达，达，达。

Then we say, "Okay, standing in that future, five years out, looking back to the present, what did we do to make this different future happen?" That's category design.

然后我们说，“好吧，站在那个未来，五年后，回顾现在，我们做了什么来让这个不同的未来发生？”这就是品类设计。

That's how you unshackle yourself from the past.

这就是你如何摆脱过去的束缚。

See, one of the biggest disservices in our industry is this word disrupt.

看，我们这个行业最大的伤害之一就是“颠覆”这个词。

"Oh, we're going to go disrupt the engineering industry." Nah.

“哦，我们要颠覆工程行业。”不。

Well, if you're disrupting something, by definition, your reference point is the something.

好吧，如果你正在破坏某件事，根据定义，你的参考点就是那件事。

And when your reference point is an existing thing, your reference point is the past.

当你的参考点是现有的事物时，你的参考点就是过去。

If we want to be able to think in unconstrained ways about a radically different future, the more we drag the past forward, the worse off we are.

如果我们希望能够以不受约束的方式思考一个完全不同的未来，那么我们越是把过去拖到过去，我们的境况就越糟糕。

What reject the premise teaches us is let's forget everything we know and start fresh.

拒绝前提告诉我们的是，让我们忘记我们所知道的一切并重新开始。

My friend, a legendary designer, John Bielenberg, does this course on innovation and design with kids in university.

我的朋友、传奇设计师约翰·比伦伯格 (John Bielenberg) 与大学里的孩子们一起学习这门关于创新和设计的课程。

He does this multi-week exercise and the objective of the exercise, Lenny, is design a bicycle.

他进行了为期数周的练习，莱尼，练习的目标是设计一辆自行车。

That's the objective.

这就是目标。

And there's only one design point.

而且只有一个设计点。

It cannot be rideable.

它不能被骑乘。

Christopher Lochhead: And the reason John makes him do that, his philosophy, he calls it thinking wrong.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：约翰让他这样做的原因，他的哲学，他称之为错误的思维。

That's his version, if you will, of reject the premise.

如果你愿意的话，这就是他拒绝这个前提的版本。

The reason for it is when you take away the premise, it must be rideable, you open up the aperture for legendary new thinking, radically different possibilities, radically different futures.

原因是当你去掉前提时，它必须是可骑的，你为传奇的新思维、完全不同的可能性、完全不同的未来打开了大门。

This is the mistake that many, many entrepreneurs make, is whether they realize it or not, what they're doing is incremental better and they're fighting for market share, fighting for existing demand with something that's incrementally better.

这是很多很多企业家犯的错误，无论他们是否意识到，他们所做的都是渐进式的更好，他们正在争夺市场份额，用渐进式更好的东西来争夺现有需求。

And the reality is that's why most entrepreneurs fail.

现实情况是，这就是大多数企业家失败的原因。

Now, you could fail doing it exponentially different, it sounds medically insane to say "What you want is a zero billion dollars market." However, as crazy as it sounds, it's the only thing that leads to meaningful success.

现在，你可能无法做到指数级的不同，“你想要的是一个零亿美元的市场”这句话在医学上听起来很疯狂。然而，尽管听起来很疯狂，但这是唯一能带来有意义的成功的事情。

And the proof is in the data.

证据就在数据中。

Lenny: Yeah.

莱尼：是的。

You talk about this in your writing, that on the surface it feels very hard and expensive to design a category, build a category, convince everyone this is a new problem.

你在写作中谈到这一点，从表面上看，设计一个类别、建立一个类别、让每个人相信这是一个新问题，感觉非常困难和昂贵。

But your point is there's no other option really if you want to build a large business.

但你的观点是，如果你想建立一家大型企业，确实没有其他选择。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Christopher Lochhead: Correct.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：正确。

And the other thing is people say, "Oh, it's really expensive and it takes an amount of time." As compared to what?

另一件事是人们说，“哦，这真的很贵，而且需要很多时间。”与什么相比？

You've lived a lot of your life in the product world, yes?

您一生中的大部分时间都在产品世界中度过，是吗？

As have I.

我也一样。

Well, if you ask smart VCs, if you ask Brian Roberts at Venrock, the number one healthcare tech investor in the world, I believe he says it's eight to 10 years for a product to really have some maturity and be really stable.

好吧，如果你问聪明的风险投资家，如果你问全球第一大医疗保健技术投资者 Venrock 的布莱恩·罗伯茨 (Brian Roberts)，我相信他说，一个产品需要八到十年的时间才能真正成熟并真正稳定。

And I don't know whether he's right or not, but he's a super smart guy.

我不知道他是否正确，但他是一个超级聪明的人。

We know how long does it take to create a legendary culture, how long does it take to get a legendary innovative business model to really hum.

我们知道创造传奇文化需要多长时间，让传奇创新商业模式真正发挥作用需要多长时间。

"Ah, it's mainly hard." Well, so is building a product, so is building a company, so is raising VC, so is doing sales, so is doing marketing, so is doing HR.

“啊，主要是很难。”嗯，开发产品也是如此，创建公司也是如此，筹集风险投资也是如此，销售也是如此，营销也是如此，人力资源也是如此。

If you want to be easy, go work at the fucking DMV.

如果你想轻松点，就去该死的DMV 工作吧。

That's point A.

也就是A点。

Christopher Lochhead: Point B is the reality, Lenny, when you look at it, the vast majority of innovation comes from startups.

Christopher Lochhead：B点是现实，Lenny，当你看到它时，绝大多数创新都来自初创公司。

People say, "Only big companies can do this." Listen, my collaborator partner Eddie Yoon, is the Obiwan Kenobi of category design in the Global 2000 Arena and particularly on the consumer side.

人们说：“只有大公司才能做到这一点”。听着，我的合作伙伴 Eddie Yoon 是 Global 2000 Arena 品类设计领域的 Obiwan Kenobi，尤其是消费者方面。

And he will tell you that most of these major companies...

他会告诉你，这些大公司中的大多数......

And he's worked for, you name a big food company, you name a big beverage company, he's worked for many of them.

他曾为一家大型食品公司、一家大型饮料公司工作过，他为其中许多公司工作过。

They fail miserably.

他们惨败。

The reality is six people with a small investment from a rich uncle can stand something up that has the potential to be worth $3 trillion dollars.

现实是，六个人用一个富有的叔叔的小额投资就可以建立起价值 3 万亿美元的潜力的东西。

That's what Apple is.

苹果就是这样。

Christopher Lochhead: And I sat there with Don Valentine and asked him about why he signed the check to Steve and Steve, and he said it was the stupidest use case he ever saw.

Christopher Lochhead：我和 Don Valentine 坐在那儿，问他为什么在支票上签了字给 Steve 和 Steve，他说这是他见过的最愚蠢的用例。

The use case was a stay-at-home mom, keeping track of her recipes on the Apple personal computer.

用例是一位全职妈妈，在苹果个人电脑上跟踪她的食谱。

This is the stupidest use case ever.

这是有史以来最愚蠢的用例。

However, Don could see the potential in the category and in the guy's willingness to go get after it.

然而，唐可以看到这个类别的潜力以及这个人追求它的意愿。

And so for a VC, if you're going to raise money, the VCs who invest in early stage mass potential companies are the ones who see your different future.

所以对于 VC 来说，如果你要融资，投资早期大众潜力公司的 VC 会看到你不同的未来。

Lenny: Along those lines, I had this note that you had this quote around product market fit and it's this hot take that product market fit is a very dangerous idea.

莱尼：沿着这些思路，我注意到您对产品市场契合度有这样的引用，并且人们普遍认为产品市场契合度是一个非常危险的想法。

I'd love for you to speak to that, because I think most people are in the opposite camp that it's the only thing that matters.

我希望你能谈谈这一点，因为我认为大多数人都站在相反的阵营，认为这是唯一重要的事情。

Why do you think it's such a dangerous idea?

为什么你认为这是一个如此危险的想法？

Christopher Lochhead: There's a bunch of these product myths.

Christopher Lochhead：有很多这样的产品神话。

Product led growth is another one, but let's go to product market fit.

产品主导的增长是另一回事，但让我们来看看产品市场契合度。

And God bless Mark Andreessen, he's the guy that framed it.

上帝保佑马克·安德森，他就是陷害这件事的人。

And Kevin just wrote a really super thoughtful piece on why it's backwards, and I'm happy to send that to you if you want.

凯文刚刚写了一篇非常深思熟虑的文章，解释为什么它是倒退的，如果你愿意，我很乐意将其发送给你。

Kevin Maney, genius.

凯文·马尼，天才。

Here's the aha, again, category design principles.

这又是类别设计原则。

Listen to the words, product, market, fit.

听听这些话，产品、市场、契合。

Product market fit.

产品市场契合度。

Now, let's think, what there is for me to do is find a way to fit my product into a market.

现在，让我们想想，我要做的就是找到一种方法让我的产品适应市场。

Christopher Lochhead: Pretty simple way to determine or to distill product market fit.

Christopher Lochhead：确定或提炼产品市场契合度的非常简单的方法。

And what product market fit has come to mean is, we're a brew pub, you and I want to start a craft beer place like everybody else on the West Coast, and we're going to make a bunch of samples and shit, and we're going to feed those samples to our friends and to our ideal customer profile that I learned from Lenny.

产品市场契合度的意思是，我们是一家啤酒酒吧，你和我想像西海岸的其他人一样开一家精酿啤酒店，我们将制作一堆样品和粪便，我们将把这些样品提供给我们的朋友和我从莱尼那里学到的理想客户资料。

And if enough people amongst my friend group and my ideal customer group say, "That's a yummy IPA, I like it," then we're going to build it.

如果我的朋友群体和理想客户群体中有足够多的人说，“这是一款美味的 IPA，我喜欢它”，那么我们就会生产它。

And then if people start buying that IPA, we have, and these are the words people use, "achieved product market fit."

然后，如果人们开始购买 IPA，我们就会用人们的话说，“实现了产品市场契合”。

Christopher Lochhead: Okay, well, Threads achieved product market fit faster than any product in the history of the world.

Christopher Lochhead：好吧，Threads 比世界历史上任何产品都更快地实现了产品市场适应。

Here's the aha, categories make products not the other way around.

啊哈，类别决定产品，而不是相反。

What you want is you want to design a market category for your product, not fit your product into a market category.

你想要的是为你的产品设计一个市场类别，而不是让你的产品适合一个市场类别。

And the problem is, our industry, like many others, but the tech industry, is full of product bigots, because they really, really, really, really, really believe, like they believe in the availability of oxygen, the best product wins.

问题是，我们的行业，像许多其他行业一样，但科技行业，充满了产品偏执者，因为他们真的、真的、真的、真的、真的相信，就像他们相信氧气的可用性一样，最好的产品会获胜。

They really believe it.

他们真的相信这一点。

And they believe what marketing's job is, "Could you put a demo on our website and get a demo?

他们相信营销的工作是什么，“你能在我们的网站上放一个演示并获得演示吗？

Can we get a viral video that's a demo?

我们可以获得一个病毒式演示视频吗？

Because once people see how much better, faster, cheaper, smaller, bigger, whatever our thing is, they're going to buy it," and they don't.

因为一旦人们看到更好、更快、更便宜、更小、更大，无论我们的产品是什么，他们就会购买它，”但他们不会。

What they buy is a new insight around a problem/opportunity that requires a different solution.

他们购买的是对需要不同解决方案的问题/机会的新见解。

That's what they buy.

这就是他们买的东西。

Here's another simple example.

这是另一个简单的例子。

This is the one I hear right now a lot, "What we need now the story, we need a story brand.

这是我现在经常听到的一句话，“我们现在需要故事，我们需要一个故事品牌。

The number one thing you can do in marketing as a startup founder is to share your startup founder journey.

作为初创公司创始人，你在营销中可以做的第一件事就是分享你的初创公司创始人的旅程。

Share your journey." This is all the shit we're hearing.

分享你的旅程。”这就是我们听到的所有废话。

We've been hearing this for a while.

我们听到这个消息已经有一段时间了。

Well, guess what?

嗯，你猜怎么着？

No one gives a fuck about your journey.

没有人关心你的旅程。

They really don't.

他们真的不知道。

You know what they care about?

你知道他们关心什么吗？

Themselves.

他们自己。

Their problems, their needs, their opportunities.

他们的问题、他们的需求、他们的机会。

For our book, Snow Leopard, we did the first ever comprehensive data science research ever done using Nielsen data to study nonfiction books.

对于我们的书《雪豹》，我们首次使用尼尔森数据来研究非小说类书籍，进行了全面的数据科学研究。

And we know that because what Nielsen told us, and we had to sign an NDA that would choke a horse in terms of what we can say and can't say about the data.

我们知道这一点，因为尼尔森告诉我们的，我们必须签署一份保密协议，这对于我们可以说和不能说的数据来说是令人窒息的。

But one of the things we wanted to understand is what categories of business books sold and which categories didn't and why.

但我们想了解的一件事是哪些类别的商业书籍畅销，哪些类别不畅销以及原因。

We can get into all that if you want, but here's the aha.

如果你愿意的话，我们可以讨论所有这些，但这是啊哈。

Guess what the number one category of business books, nonfiction books is by a mile.

猜猜商业书籍中排名第一的非小说类书籍是什么。

Lenny: Oh my god.

莱尼：天啊。

Sales?

销售量？

Marketing, marketing-sales.

营销，营销-销售。

No.

不。

Lenny: Okay, that makes sense.

莱尼：好吧，这是有道理的。

Self-help.

自助。

Christopher Lochhead: Self-help.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：自助。

And number two, personal finance.

第二，个人理财。

Biographies are way down on the list.

传记在名单上排得很靠后。

The point being, no one cares about our product.

关键是，没有人关心我们的产品。

No one cares that it's 25 mega flips faster, cheaper, whatever, they don't care.

没有人关心它的 25 兆翻转速度更快、更便宜，无论如何，他们不在乎。

You know what they care about?

你知道他们关心什么吗？

Them, their needs, their wants, their problems.

他们，他们的需要，他们的愿望，他们的问题。

And categories are about customers and their wants, needs, problems and opportunities.

类别涉及客户及其需求、问题和机会。

Branding and marketing is about our product.

品牌和营销与我们的产品有关。

And the greatest innovators in the world don't stop at innovating a product or technology.

世界上最伟大的创新者不会止步于产品或技术的创新。

They design a new innovative market category where they standalone.

他们设计了一个独立的新的创新市场类别。

Lenny: We're definitely going along, which I expected.

莱尼：我们肯定会一起进行，正如我所预料的那样。

And we've actually gone through most of the questions I had, but I have just a few more to close out the conversation.

事实上，我们已经讨论了我提出的大部分问题，但我还有几个问题可以结束对话。

One is positioning.

一是定位。

That's something you hear a lot about.

这是你经常听到的事情。

How do you think about positioning versus categorying?

您如何看待定位与分类？

Are they essentially the same thing?

它们本质上是同一件事吗？

Is positioning just a way to phrase and describe your category?

定位只是表达和描述您的类别的一种方式吗？

How should people think about that?

人们应该如何思考这个问题？

Christopher Lochhead: What positioning today has become is essentially how do I tell a story about my shit in a unique way, in a compelling way?

Christopher Lochhead：今天的定位本质上是我如何以独特的方式、以令人信服的方式讲述我的狗屎故事？

That's really what people mean when they say positioning.

这就是人们所说的定位的真正含义。

The parts they never stop to consider, again, listen to the words positioning as it relates to what?

他们从未停下来考虑的部分，再次聆听“定位”这个词，因为它与什么相关？

Because you, again, listen to the words and fucking think, "You position against competitors." How do we position against the competitors?

因为你再一次听到这些话，然后他妈的想，“你的定位是针对竞争对手的。”我们如何定位竞争对手？

That's a phrase people use.

这是人们使用的一个短语。

The question is, what are you positioning against?

问题是，你的定位是针对什么？

And the answer to that question almost all of the time is competition.

这个问题的答案几乎总是竞争。

If you're doing positioning in that context, you just decided you're fighting for 24% of the demand designed by somebody else.

如果你在这种情况下进行定位，你就决定要争取别人设计的 24% 的需求。

And we think in the tech space where one company earns two thirds of the economics, if that's your starting point, you fuck yourself from the start.

我们认为，在科技领域，一家公司赚取了三分之二的经济效益，如果这是你的起点，那你从一开始就完蛋了。

To put it simply, positioning in the modern context is for losers.

简单地说，在现代背景下定位是失败者的选择。

That is to say people who are fighting over the 24%.

也就是说，为那24%而奋斗的人。

That's positioning.

这就是定位。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

Getting spicy over here.

到这里就变辣了。

Christopher Lochhead: Well, it's factually correct.

Christopher Lochhead：嗯，事实上这是正确的。

People go, "Oh, ." Okay, so you mean to tell me that in tech one company doesn't take two thirds of the economics?

人们会说，“哦，”好吧，那么你的意思是告诉我，在科技领域，一家公司并没有拿走三分之二的经济效益？

Okay, believe that.

好吧，相信这一点。

And you can believe gravity doesn't exist.

你可以相信重力不存在。

It does, but you can believe that Bigfoots are installing misters on 5G towers to make us all sick, if you want.

确实如此，但如果你愿意的话，你可以相信大脚怪正在 5G 塔上安装喷雾器，让我们所有人都生病。

You can believe anything you want, it doesn't make it true.

你可以相信任何你愿意相信的事情，但这并不意味着它是真的。

What's true is one company wins and everybody else gets fucked.

事实是，一家公司赢了，其他公司都完蛋了。

That's what's true.

这就是事实。

Look at any space you want.

看看你想要的任何空间。

You want to go back to your list?

您想返回您的列表吗？

We can go through the list.

我们可以浏览一下清单。

Positioning has become sort of category design for the cowards.

定位已经成为懦夫的品类设计。

It's like, "Well, I know that we could really be as radical as to create our own space, so let's just see if we can carve off our little niche over here." Okay, great.

就像，“好吧，我知道我们真的可以像创建自己的空间一样激进，所以让我们看看我们是否可以在这里开辟我们的小利基。”好的，太好了。

Lenny: A big part of positioning, just to expand on this a little bit, is differentiation.

莱尼：定位的一个重要部分，稍微扩展一下，就是差异化。

Differentiating yourself.

让自己与众不同。

People always talk about the importance of differentiation.

人们总是谈论差异化的重要性。

Do you see that as the same potential pitfall, or how do you think about differentiation?

您是否认为这是同样的潜在陷阱，或者您如何看待差异化？

Christopher Lochhead: Okay, this is really, really powerful.

Christopher Lochhead：好的，这真的非常非常强大。

In category design, we don't compete, period, full stop at the brand to brand or product to product level.

在品类设计中，我们不会在品牌与品牌或产品与产品层面进行竞争。

Category designers do compete, but not against a product, not against a company, not against a brand.

品类设计师确实存在竞争，但不是针对产品，不是针对公司，也不是针对品牌。

Category designers compete against the status quo.

类别设计师与现状竞争。

Let me be specific.

让我具体说一下。

There's a category called cycling.

有一个类别叫做骑自行车。

You look like you might be a biker, Lenny, are you?

莱尼，你看起来可能是个骑自行车的人，是吗？

Lenny: Very casually, mostly an e-bike.

Lenny：很随意，主要是电动自行车。

Lenny: They're so fun.

莱尼：他们真有趣。

Mountain bike.

山地自行车。

Yeah.

是的。

Christopher Lochhead: But you've been on a mountain bike.

Christopher Lochhead：但是你骑过山地自行车。

You've been on a road bike, you've gone out with friends, done this, right?

你骑过公路自行车，和朋友出去过，做过这些，对吧？

Christopher Lochhead: Anybody who bikes on any kind of regular basis has been in an accident.

Christopher Lochhead：任何经常骑自行车的人都曾遭遇过事故。

And if you bike on a real regular basis, you've been in an accident with a vehicle that was not caused by you.

如果您经常骑自行车，那么您所遭遇的事故并不是由您造成的。

That's true for every person I know that rides a bike on any regular basis, myself included.

对于我认识的每个定期骑自行车的人来说都是如此，包括我自己。

All of a sudden a new category shows up, and that new category is called indoor biking classes.

突然出现了一个新类别，这个新类别称为室内自行车课程。

And the category designer is a company called spinning.

而品类设计师是一家叫spining的公司。

Christopher Lochhead: And they say, "Hey, biking's great.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：他们说：“嘿，骑自行车很棒。

It's an incredible source of exercise, but you don't want to get killed doing it, so come take a class." And what they're doing when they do that, they're competing category to category, not brand or product to brand.

这是一种令人难以置信的锻炼方式，但你不想因此而丧命，所以来参加课程吧。”当他们这样做时，他们正在做的是类别与类别之间的竞争，而不是品牌或产品与品牌之间的竞争。

And that's a strategy that's called damming the demand.

这就是所谓的抑制需求的策略。

What does a dam do?

大坝有什么作用？

There's a bunch of water running in the direction, a dam takes that water, stops it and moves it, does something to it.

有一堆水流向这个方向，水坝吸收这些水，阻止它并移动它，对它做一些事情。

Interrupts it and changes it.

打断它并改变它。

Here's what spinning does.

这就是旋转的作用。

They say, "Why risk your life on a bike when you can take a wonderful class and not have to worry about it and get your exercise?" What dam the demand, Lenny, is you thought you wanted this, but what you really need is that.

他们说：“当你可以参加精彩的课程而不必担心并锻炼身体时，为什么还要冒着生命危险骑自行车呢？”莱尼，最糟糕的需求是你以为你想要这个，但你真正需要的是那个。

Christopher Lochhead: Then what happens?

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：然后会发生什么？

The next iteration in that space comes from Peloton.

该领域的下一个迭代来自 Peloton。

Again, when Peloton launches, they don't say, "Hey, our bikes are better than spinning bikes.

同样，当 Peloton 推出时，他们不会说：“嘿，我们的自行车比动感单车更好。

Our bikes are 12 mega flips, faster, cheaper." They don't do any of that shit.

我们的自行车具有 12 个超级翻转功能，更快，更便宜。”他们不做任何这种事。

They don't shit on spinning, they don't attack spinning, they don't attack road biking, they don't do any of that stuff.

他们不讨厌旋转，他们不攻击旋转，他们不攻击公路自行车，他们不做任何那样的事情。

They say, "Why drive to the gym when you could do it at home?" They dam the demand for spinning, they don't compete against it.

他们说：“如果你可以在家锻炼，为什么还要开车去健身房呢？”他们抑制了纺纱的需求，他们不与之竞争。

And they reframe the problem called "How do I get a great workout in a group environment without getting killed?" And they achieve that massive success.

他们重新定义了一个名为“如何在团体环境中获得良好锻炼而不被杀死？”的问题。他们取得了巨大的成功。

Christopher Lochhead: And I can give you many other examples.

Christopher Lochhead：我还可以举很多其他例子。

The mistake is competing directly product to product.

错误在于产品与产品之间直接竞争。

The enemy is the status quo.

敌人是现状。

That is to say the way it is now.

也就是说现在就是这样。

If you go back to Lomi, the enemy, the way it is now, the status quo, is a nasty garbage in your kitchen that stinks and smells and gets all over the floor that you have to drag to the green bin and then the squirrels and the fucking raccoons eat it.

如果你回到洛米，敌人，现在的样子，现状，就是你厨房里的令人讨厌的垃圾，散发着恶臭，散发着气味，遍布地板，你必须将它们拖到绿色垃圾箱里，然后松鼠和该死的浣熊会把它吃掉。

That's the personal upset.

这就是个人的不爽。

And the environmental one is, we're destroying the planet.

环境问题是，我们正在毁灭地球。

No, by the way, rather than destroy the planet, why not create this super awesome compost dirt?

不，顺便说一句，与其毁灭地球，为什么不创造这种超级棒的堆肥污垢呢？

In category design, we call that a from to a Frodo.

在品类设计中，我们称之为“从弗罗多到弗罗多”。

Category designers are leading the world from the way it is to a new and different way.

品类设计师正在引领世界从原来的方式走向一种新的、不同的方式。

They're not saying, "My carbide ingulator is better than their carbide ingulator."

他们并不是说，“我的硬质合金绝缘体比他们的硬质合金绝缘体更好”。

Christopher Lochhead: Here's a simple example.

Christopher Lochhead：这是一个简单的例子。

This is another reason the word disrupt doesn't work.

这是“破坏”这个词不起作用的另一个原因。

Les Paul is the innovator of the electric guitar.

Les Paul 是电吉他的创新者。

Today most guitar players have an electric guitar and an acoustic guitar.

如今，大多数吉他手都有电吉他和原声吉他。

Matter of fact, most guitar players have more than one, very few guitar players, some, but very few said, "Oh, now that the electric guitar is invented, fuck the acoustic guitar." Very, very rare.

事实上，大多数吉他手都不止一把，很少有吉他手，有一些，但很少有人说，“哦，现在电吉他已经发明了，去他妈的原声吉他。”非常非常罕见。

The net new category called electric...

名为“电动”的网络新类别...

Christopher Lochhead: So the net new category called electric guitar as opposed to the prior category, acoustic guitar, actually increases the overall guitar TAM.

Christopher Lochhead：因此，与之前的原声吉他类别相比，称为电吉他的新类别实际上增加了整体吉他 TAM。

Doesn't disrupt shit.

不打扰狗屎。

So in that case, you're actually creating net new demand.

因此，在这种情况下，您实际上是在创造净新需求。

In the Peloton example, you're both creating that new demand and you're getting your start.

在 Peloton 的例子中，你既创造了新的需求，又开始了你的工作。

And this is where I think a lot of the discussion that you have and a lot of your work, Lenny, around growth, is really powerful, because what's really going on when growth works is effective digital damning of demand.

我认为这就是你围绕增长进行的很多讨论和你的很多工作非常强大的地方，因为当增长发挥作用时，真正发生的是对需求的有效数字诅咒。

That's what's really going on, when it works.

当它起作用时，这就是真正发生的事情。

Lenny: I think somewhere maybe wrote this, "Damn the TAM" is an awesome phrase.

Lenny：我想也许在某个地方写过这样的一句话，“该死的 TAM”是一个很棒的短语。

If you haven't, you should use that.

如果你还没有，你应该使用它。

Damning the TAM, increasing the TAM.

诅咒 TAM，增加 TAM。

So you have a number of books you put out.

所以你出版了很多书。

I'm going to link to all these.

我将链接到所有这些。

Play Bigger, I think, was your first, Niche Down is the other.

我想，Play Bigger 是你的第一个，Niche Down 是另一个。

And your newest book, I believe is your newest book, is the 22 Laws of Category Design.

我相信你的最新书是《品类设计的 22 条法则》。

So maybe just as a last question, can you just share a few of these laws, maybe two or three of your favorite laws from the book just to give people a sense of the book?

所以也许作为最后一个问题，您能否分享其中的一些定律，也许是书中您最喜欢的两到三个定律，只是为了让人们对这本书有所了解？

Christopher Lochhead: I think we talked about law number one, which, in a lot of ways, is probably the most important.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：我认为我们讨论了第一号法律，从很多方面来说，它可能是最重要的。

Another one to think about is something we call the magic triangle, which we've touched on, but maybe not explicitly, which is, in order to build a legendary company, you've got to get product, company, and category right at the right time.

另一个需要考虑的问题是我们所说的“魔力三角”，我们已经提到过，但可能没有明确地提及，也就是说，为了建立一家传奇公司，你必须在正确的时间获得正确的产品、公司和类别。

And so some people hear the category design discussion and they think it's somehow pejorative to product as if product doesn't matter.

因此，有些人听到类别设计的讨论，他们认为这在某种程度上是对产品的贬义，就好像产品并不重要一样。

The reason for category design is because we love the products.

品类设计的原因是因为我们喜欢产品。

Products fail because they don't get category designed.

产品失败是因为它们没有进行类别设计。

So I think the aha of the magic triangle is product, company, and category are equal in importance, and so getting that right I think is very powerful.

所以我认为神奇三角形的关键点是产品、公司和品类同等重要，所以我认为正确地做到这一点是非常强大的。

Christopher Lochhead: I'm just riffing off the top of my head.

Christopher Lochhead：我只是随口说说而已。

I don't have it in front of me.

我面前没有它。

Another example is lightning strikes versus peanut butter.

另一个例子是雷击与花生酱。

So what most marketers do is they take their marketing budget for the year, they quarterize it, and maybe there's slight variance in the quarters, but essentially it's a similar amount of spend.

因此，大多数营销人员所做的就是获取当年的营销预算，将其进行季度化，各个季度之间可能略有差异，但本质上是类似的支出金额。

And they do campaigns.

他们还开展活动。

And they do "keep the lights on" and maybe they launch a product and maybe they have a big push around the product.

他们确实“保持亮灯”，也许他们推出了一款产品，也许他们大力推动了该产品。

And they're trying to drive the funnel and they're trying to deliver sales or deliver leads, B2B, doesn't matter.

他们试图推动漏斗，他们试图提供销售或提供潜在客户，B2B，并不重要。

And that's what they do.

这就是他们所做的。

And what they don't realize, Lenny, is that approach, that peanut butter approach, is predicated on almost 100-year-old mental scaffolding and marketing called reach and frequency.

莱尼，他们没有意识到这种方法，这种花生酱方法，是基于近 100 年前的心理支架和营销，称为覆盖范围和频率。

And what reach and frequency was about, which was, I want to get my shit in front of the most amount of people the most often possible.

影响范围和频率是什么，也就是说，我想尽可能频繁地将我的东西展示给尽可能多的人。

Christopher Lochhead: And if you listen to a lot of the shysters and hustle porn stars, the Gary VDs, and this is of the world, "You got to release 400 pieces of content today on every platform." All this stupidity.

Christopher Lochhead：如果你听过很多害羞的色情明星、Gary VD 的言论，那么“今天你必须在每个平台上发布 400 条内容。”所有这些愚蠢的行为。

That's just a reswizzle of reach and frequency from over 50 years ago in the new medium.

这只是 50 多年前在新媒体中的覆盖范围和频率的重新调整。

Well, it turns out reach and frequency doesn't work.

好吧，事实证明覆盖范围和频率不起作用。

Because the number of marketing messages we get is massive, they're experts who say we get up to 60,000 a day, whether it's logos on coffee cups or ads on the internet and everything in between.

因为我们收到的营销信息数量巨大，专家称我们每天收到的营销信息多达 60,000 条，无论是咖啡杯上的徽标还是互联网上的广告以及介于两者之间的所有内容。

And so it's virtually impossible to stand out in a reach and frequency mode.

因此，要在覆盖范围和频率模式中脱颖而出几乎是不可能的。

Now I'm not saying you shouldn't be doing keep the lights on marketing.

现在我并不是说你不应该继续关注营销。

Of course you need to do keep the lights on marketing.

当然，您需要继续关注营销。

But, here's what the lightning strike model and category design teaches us.

但是，这就是雷击模型和类别设计告诉我们的。

I'd rather matter for one week a year than be irrelevant for the rest of the year.

我宁愿每年有一周的时间很重要，也不愿在这一年的剩余时间里变得无关紧要。

Christopher Lochhead: And so what we did, candidly Lenny, was we ripped off Hollywood's model for launching movies.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：坦白说，莱尼，我们所做的就是抄袭好莱坞的电影发行模式。

We said, "What if you did that as a software company?

我们说，“如果你作为一家软件公司这样做怎么办？

What if you launched a thing, be it a product or something else, the way Hollywood launches a movie?" And so what a lightning strike is about is getting very, very clear, if you go back to your ICP thing, "Who's our ideal customer?

如果你像好莱坞推出电影那样推出一款产品，无论是产品还是其他东西，会怎么样？”因此，如果您回到 ICP 问题，“谁是我们理想的客户？

Where is that customer?

那个顾客在哪里？

Where does she hang out?" Ideally, in the digital world first.

她在哪里闲逛？”理想情况下，首先是在数字世界。

One of your recent episodes, I was listening to the Growth Hacker Gala, how she went on to Reddit and stuff.

在你最近的一集中，我正在听“Growth Hacker Gala”，了解她如何继续使用 Reddit 之类的东西。

That's a well-known strategy and I love that strategy.

这是一个众所周知的策略，我喜欢这个策略。

Go hang out where they are, put something provocative and engaging in front of them, and matter in that moment.

去他们所在的地方闲逛，在他们面前放一些具有挑衅性和吸引力的东西，在那一刻很重要。

So the idea of a lightning strike is, if you are in our target audience for that day or that two days, we are going to be all over you.

所以闪电般的想法是，如果你是我们那天或那两天的目标受众，我们就会关注你。

Christopher Lochhead: We're going to be undeniable.

Christopher Lochhead：我们将是不可否认的。

And so we put a disproportionate amount of our effort, if we're in B2B, probably one to two lightning strikes a year.

因此，如果我们从事 B2B 业务，我们会投入不成比例的精力，每年可能会遇到一到两次闪电袭击。

If we're in B2C, two to three.

如果我们从事 B2C，则两到三个。

One a quarter if you're a really big company.

如果你是一家非常大的公司，则每季度一次。

It's hard to pull off one a quarter if you're a smaller company.

如果你是一家规模较小的公司，很难每季度实现一次。

And much more than that, if not a lightning strike, it starts to blur back into peanut butter.

更重要的是，即使不是雷击，它也会开始模糊回花生酱。

But, that is a very powerful concept.

但是，这是一个非常强大的概念。

On the execution side for marketers, that's different.

在营销人员的执行方面，情况有所不同。

The other thing I'd say and probably should have started here, so I'm a three-time public company CMO.

我要说的另一件事可能应该从这里开始，所以我是三届上市公司的首席营销官。

I've advised over 50 venture-backed companies in category design and marketing.

我曾为 50 多家风险投资支持的公司提供品类设计和营销方面的咨询服务。

Guess what I've never seen in a marketing plan ever?

猜猜我在营销计划中从未见过什么？

Christopher Lochhead: Word of mouth.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：口碑相传。

This boggles our minds, those of us in category design, because WOM is was and always will be the most powerful form of marketing.

这让我们这些从事品类设计的人感到困惑，因为口碑过去是、将来也永远是最强大的营销形式。

And in the native digital world, WOM can spread in a way that was never possible on the analog world for all the reasons we all understand.

在原生数字世界中，口碑可以以一种在模拟世界中不可能的方式传播，原因我们都明白。

So if you take the concept of a lightning strike, then you take the concept of a category point of view that is all about frame naming and claiming a problem.

因此，如果您采用雷击的概念，那么您就采用了类别观点的概念，即所有关于框架命名和声明问题的概念。

And then there's one other concept I'll introduce.

然后我要介绍另一个概念。

Christopher Lochhead: It sits next to your ideal customer profile.

Christopher Lochhead：它位于您理想的客户档案旁边。

It's what in category design we call super consumers.

这就是品类设计中我们所说的超级消费者。

So it turns out that in most categories, roughly eight to 10% of the buyers are responsible for the vast majority of the profits.

事实证明，在大多数品类中，大约 8% 到 10% 的买家获得了绝大多数利润。

And more importantly, they are the zeitgeist.

更重要的是，它们是时代精神。

They are the thought leaders in the industry.

他们是行业的思想领袖。

They are the customers, the users, the purveyors of whatever the thing is that others look up to as being the ones to admire, the ones to aspire to, the best practices, et cetera, et cetera.

他们是客户、用户，是其他人所仰慕的事物、值得追求的事物、最佳实践的提供者，等等。

That's a super consumer.

这就是超级消费者。

Okay.

好的。

So in category design, when you understand who your supers are, i.e. your ideal customer profile, you understand where they are primarily in the native digital world, how do we go hang out?

因此，在类别设计中，当您了解您的超级用户是谁，即您理想的客户档案时，您就会了解他们主要在本地数字世界中的位置，我们如何出去玩？

And remind me what that gal's name was?

并提醒我那个女孩叫什么名字？

I thought she was awesome.

我觉得她很棒。

Lenny: Meltem.

莱尼：融化。

Meltem Kuran Berkowitz.

梅尔特姆·库兰·伯科维茨。

Christopher Lochhead: What a name.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：多好的名字啊。

That's a great name.

这是一个很棒的名字。

Anyway, I thought Meltem was awesome.

无论如何，我觉得 Meltem 很棒。

She's absolutely on point.

她绝对说到点上了。

So we know who our ideal customer, aka super consumers are.

所以我们知道谁是我们的理想客户，即超级消费者。

We know where they hang out in the native digital world.

我们知道他们在原生数字世界中的哪些地方。

We have a radically compelling different point of view about framing, claiming, and naming a problem that, if we do effectively, we'll resonate with them.

我们对问题的框架、主张和命名有着截然不同的观点，如果我们做得有效，我们就会与他们产生共鸣。

That's why we spend time crafting that POV.

这就是我们花时间制作 POV 的原因。

So we evangelize the problem.

所以我们传播这个问题。

We participate in a native digital community where they already are.

我们参与了他们已经存在的本地数字社区。

And we do it from the perspective of not a marketer, not a seller, an educator.

我们不是从营销人员、销售人员、教育者的角度来做这件事的。

We're teaching people about a new and different way to think about an existing problem or a problem they hadn't thought of, that when they have an aha moment, because we articulate it well with our point of view, they go, "Oh, tell me more about that problem."

我们正在教人们用一种新的、不同的方式来思考现有的问题或他们没有想到的问题，当他们顿悟时，因为我们用我们的观点很好地表达了它，他们会说，“哦，告诉我更多关于这个问题的信息。”

Christopher Lochhead: Right?

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：对吗？

As they do that, we take an education standpoint, mental framework to it.

当他们这样做时，我们采取教育立场和心理框架。

We open them up, we participate, and sooner or later somebody says, "Huh, tell me again what you do." And bam, away that we go.

我们打开它们，我们参与其中，迟早会有人说，“嗯，再告诉我一次你做了什么。”砰，我们走了。

And here's the aha.

这就是啊哈。

When you understand supers, you understand the targeting, you understand a radically different point of view, reframing the problem, presenting a radically different solution.

当你理解超级时，你就理解了目标，你就理解了完全不同的观点，重新构建了问题，提出了完全不同的解决方案。

Well guess what?

好吧你猜怎么着？

It's the ultimate growth engine.

这是最终的增长引擎。

And you can grow for a very small amount of money.

而且您只需很少的钱就可以成长。

You could send email to 300 people and drive a breakthrough in sales.

您可以向 300 人发送电子邮件并推动销售突破。

Christopher Lochhead: Why?

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：为什么？

Because when you take this approach, you're not just driving near-term revenue, very, very important, you are driving WOM.

因为当你采取这种方法时，你不仅会推动短期收入，非常非常重要的是，你还会推动口碑。

A big part of why you want to have a point of view that can be articulated very quickly is marketing's job is to put the right words in the right mouths and to get that WOM to scale.

为什么你想要有一个可以快速表达的观点，很大程度上是因为营销的工作是将正确的话语放在正确的嘴里，并扩大口碑。

And so when we have a category POV, that's about them, not us.

因此，当我们有一个类别 POV 时，那是关于他们的，而不是我们。

Remember, brands are about us.

请记住，品牌是关于我们的。

Categories are about customers.

类别是关于客户的。

We care about what they care about.

我们关心他们关心的事情。

And so when you have a powerful category POV, that drives WOM.

因此，当你拥有强大的品类视角时，就会推动口碑传播。

And then when you do that in the native digital world, you get a tremendous amount of uplift from native digital viral WOM.

然后，当您在本地数字世界中这样做时，您会从本地数字病毒式口碑中获得巨大的提升。

And category design is the only business strategy whose primary execution focus starts with WOM.

而品类设计是唯一一个以口碑为主要执行重点的商业策略。

Lenny: What an awesome way to wrap up our conversation.

莱尼：用这种方式来结束我们的谈话真是太棒了。

It's basically a very tight go-to-market strategy is what you just shared.

您刚才分享的基本上是一个非常严格的进入市场策略。

For folks that want to dig further, I'll just share a few of the places they could learn more.

对于那些想要进一步挖掘的人，我将分享一些他们可以了解更多信息的地方。

And then Neil, at the end, I'll ask you where to point people.

然后尼尔，最后我会问你该把人指到哪里。

But, you have an awesome Substack category, pirates.

但是，你有一个很棒的子堆栈类别，海盗。

That's substack.com.

那是 substack.com。

You have your books, which I think maybe the best way to, I guess you tell me, is to find them as go to your last name.

你有你的书，我想也许最好的方法，我想你告诉我，就是通过你的姓氏找到它们。

com, lochhead.com, L-O-C-H-head.com.

com、lochhead.com、L-O-C-H-head.com。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Christopher Lochhead: Yeah.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：是的。

And of course you can go to category pirates.com.

当然，您也可以前往 Pirates.com 类别。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

Even easier.

甚至更容易。

Amazing.

惊人的。

So we have the lightning round coming up.

所以我们即将迎来闪电回合。

Is there anything else you want to share as closing words or advice before we get to a very exciting lightning round?

在我们进入激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想分享的作为结束语或建议吗？

Christopher Lochhead: So I'm 55 years old, Lenny.

Christopher Lochhead：莱尼，我今年 55 岁了。

I started my first company when I was 18.

我 18 岁时创办了第一家公司。

I got thrown out of school.

我被学校开除了。

I don't have a GED.

我没有 GED。

And I've been in the tech industry the whole time.

我一直从事科技行业。

And the first thing I would share is anything's possible.

我要分享的第一件事是一切皆有可能。

Don't listen to anybody who shits on you.

不要听任何对你撒谎的人。

I've a chat on as much as you could possibly imagine.

我已经聊了你能想象到的一切。

I have four or five different learning differences.

我有四五个不同的学习差异。

ADHD, dyslexia, dyscalculia, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

多动症，阅读障碍，计算障碍，等等，等等，等等。

I was told I couldn't read.

有人告诉我我不能读书。

I was certainly told I couldn't write.

我当然被告知我不能写作。

I've written 14 number one fucking bestsellers, et cetera, et cetera.

我写了 14 本他妈的第一畅销书，等等。

And so my point is, if you are somebody for whom you want to spend your professional time working on the exponential different as opposed to the incremental better, which I got to believe is a meaningful percentage of the people who consume your shit, if you want to work on the incremental better, incremental better is important.

所以我的观点是，如果你想把你的专业时间花在指数级差异上，而不是渐进式更好上，我相信在消费你的狗屎的人中占很大比例，如果你想更好地致力于渐进式，那么渐进式更好很重要。

Christopher Lochhead: I want the Boeing engineers working on the incremental better.

Christopher Lochhead：我希望波音工程师更好地致力于增量工作。

I don't want the air traffic control system that's the exponential different.

我不想要指数级差异的空中交通管制系统。

No. And a lot of incremental improvement over time can be exponential.

不会。随着时间的推移，许多渐进式的改进可能会呈指数级增长。

So if you're a product manager and you're running a highly successful product with a massive install base, and you're looking at your next rev, and you're trying to figure out of the 472 features that you could build.

因此，如果您是一名产品经理，并且您正在运行一个非常成功的产品，拥有庞大的安装基础，并且您正在考虑下一个版本，并且您正在尝试找出可以构建的 472 个功能。

What are the 26 that really matter?

真正重要的 26 个是什么？

And you want to go talk to your customers to find out what those incremental improvements are and to stack rank them into all that good.

您想要与您的客户交谈，找出这些增量改进是什么，并将它们排序为所有好的内容。

PRD, MRD, IUD, all that shit.

PRD、MRD、宫内节育器，所有这些狗屎。

There's a big place in the world for all of that.

世界上有一个很大的地方可以容纳这一切。

It's incredibly important.

这非常重要。

That's not category design.

这不是品类设计。

So with that said, I think, Lenny, we are at the greatest time in history for our industry.

话虽如此，我认为，莱尼，我们正处于行业历史上最伟大的时期。

Christopher Lochhead: I think all the indicators show that the amount of innovation that is going to happen in the next five years will eclipse the amount of innovation that happened in the last 20 years.

Christopher Lochhead：我认为所有指标都表明，未来五年内发生的创新量将超过过去 20 年发生的创新量。

It's accelerating.

它正在加速。

AI is insanely exciting, dangerous, concerning.

人工智能非常令人兴奋、危险、令人担忧。

Do we need to focus on the downside?

我们需要关注负面影响吗？

Do we need to be smart?

我们需要聪明吗？

Do we need to be thoughtful?

我们需要深思熟虑吗？

Do we need to learn?

我们需要学习吗？

Do we need to work with regulators and legislators?

我们需要与监管机构和立法者合作吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

Could it go horribly?

事情会变得很糟糕吗？

Oh, sure.

哦，当然。

But, that's always true.

但是，这始终是事实。

AI feels a little bit different, but it's always true.

人工智能给人的感觉有点不同，但它总是如此。

And for the record, the Luddites are always wrong.

郑重声明，勒德分子总是错的。

The point being now is the greatest time in history to be a creator, to be an entrepreneur, to be a marketer.

关键是，现在是历史上成为创造者、企业家和营销人员的最伟大时代。

I've been a marketer for my entire adult life.

我成年后一直是一名营销人员。

It's never been greater than it is right now.

它从来没有像现在这样伟大过。

And so here's the big thing that I would share.

这就是我要分享的一件大事。

Christopher Lochhead: If you are somebody for whom you want to make an exponential difference, you want to innovate, you want to create new value where there wasn't, you want to have a legendary career where you can look back on your career and go, "You know what?

克里斯托弗·洛赫黑德：如果你想为自己带来指数级的改变，你想创新，你想创造新的价值，你想拥有一个传奇的职业生涯，让你可以回顾自己的职业生涯并说，“你知道吗？

I was part of this and that.

我是这个和那个的一部分。

And I was on this team." Now is the greatest time in history.

我是这个团队的一员。”现在是历史上最伟大的时刻。

And what I would say to you is the future needs you.

我要对你说的是，未来需要你。

Most people are not working on the exponential different.

大多数人并不是在研究指数差异。

Christopher Lochhead: And so the future of our world requires that the innovative people, that the entrepreneurial people stand up, take advantage of these incredible technologies.

Christopher Lochhead：因此，我们世界的未来需要创新人士、企业家人士站起来，利用这些令人难以置信的技术。

And a lot of people, particularly in my age group, Lenny, shit on millennials, Gen Z, what are lovingly referred to as native digitals.

很多人，尤其是我这个年龄段的人，莱尼，对千禧一代、Z 世代很不屑，他们被亲切地称为原生数字一代。

Absolutely not.

绝对不是。

I'm inspired by them.

我受到他们的启发。

And I think the next generation of our entrepreneurs will be our greatest generation of entrepreneurs.

我认为我们的下一代企业家将是我们最伟大的一代企业家。

So my point is, now's the time.

所以我的观点是，现在是时候了。

The future needs you.

未来需要你。

Don't listen to any of the bullshit.

别听任何废话。

I don't care what the boo birds say.

我不在乎那些嘘鸟说什么。

Absolutely, go for it because there's never been a greater time to design and dominate new categories of innovation than right now.

绝对可以，因为现在是设计和主导新创新类别的最佳时机。

Lenny: I love that message.

莱尼：我喜欢这个信息。

You're just passion and energy for creating and inspiring comes through really clearly in all your writing.

你的创作热情和活力在你的所有写作中都清晰地体现出来。

And so I love hearing it in person.

所以我喜欢亲自聆听。

With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

What are two or three books you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Christopher Lochhead: Richard Bach, Illusions.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：理查德·巴赫，《幻象》。

And then in terms of business books, I'll share with you one, because I know people recommend all the same shit.

然后就商业书籍而言，我将与您分享一本，因为我知道人们推荐的都是同样的东西。

I'll share with you one that I think it may still be in print, but if not, it's easy to get.

我将与您分享一份我认为可能仍在印刷中的内容，但如果没有，也很容易获得。

Mark McCormack's What They Don't Teach You At The Harvard Business School.

马克·麦科马克的《哈佛商学院他们不会教你的东西》。

So on the personal side, Richard Bach, Illusions.

就个人而言，理查德·巴赫的《幻象》。

And for one that you may not have heard of Mark McCormack, What They Don't Teach You At The Harvard Business School.

对于您可能没有听说过马克·麦考马克（Mark McCormack）的一本书，《哈佛商学院他们不会教你什么》。

Lenny: What is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

莱尼：您最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？

Christopher Lochhead: Oh, right now we're watching Designing Anna or Inventing Anna or whatever that's called.

Christopher Lochhead：哦，现在我们正在看《设计安娜》或《发明安娜》或其他什么名字的节目。

So that's been fascinating to watch.

所以这看起来很有趣。

I think it's been incredibly well done.

我认为它做得非常好。

Lenny: What a wild story, that one.

莱尼：那是一个多么疯狂的故事啊。

What is a favorite interview question you like to ask candidates when you're hiring people?

当你招聘员工时，你最喜欢问候选人的面试问题是什么？

Christopher Lochhead: So there's actually two.

Christopher Lochhead：所以实际上有两个。

And I'll start with the second most important interview question, which I think is the most important question.

我将从第二个最重要的面试问题开始，我认为这是最重要的问题。

But in a job interview setting, for me it's the second most important.

但在工作面试中，对我来说这是第二重要的。

And that is, it there anything else?

也就是说，还有其他什么吗？

And you know this as a podcaster.

作为播客你知道这一点。

I end every single one of my podcasts with, is there anything else?

我每一个播客的结尾都是“还有什么吗？”

And the interesting thing about that question, you can spend three hours with somebody talking about very important shit.

这个问题的有趣之处在于，你可以花三个小时与某人谈论非常重要的事情。

You can think you got all the detail.

您可以认为您了解了所有细节。

You could have asked all the questions about the technical architecture and the campaign and the distribution and I don't know what.

您可以询问有关技术架构、活动和分发的所有问题，但我不知道是什么。

Christopher Lochhead: And at the very end you say, "Hey, Susan, before we wrap, is there anything else?" And often, Lenny, the most important thing for that person to communicate comes out then.

Christopher Lochhead：最后你说，“嘿，苏珊，在我们结束之前，还有其他事情吗？”通常，莱尼，那个人要沟通的最重要的事情就会在那时出现。

It happens so often, it's bizarre.

这种事经常发生，很奇怪。

I use that in medical situations.

我在医疗情况下使用它。

Family member is in the hospital going for an operation.

家人正在医院做手术。

"Okay, doc, tell me." I tell you all the shit.

“好吧，博士，告诉我吧。”我告诉你所有的狗屎。

Is there anything else?

还有别的吗？

I will tell you that eight times out of 10, the most important thing about the surgery with your loved one will come after that question.

我会告诉你，十分之八的是，关于与你所爱的人进行手术的最重要的事情将出现在这个问题之后。

I will even use it during a conversation as we transition from various different points.

当我们从不同的不同点过渡时，我什至会在对话中使用它。

Christopher Lochhead: So in an interview situation, maybe you're asking somebody about their background.

Christopher Lochhead：所以在面试的情况下，也许你是在询问某人的背景。

You might say, "Well, is there anything else about your background you think I should know?" It's the most powerful open question.

您可能会说：“那么，您认为我还应该了解有关您背景的其他信息吗？”这是最有力的开放性问题。

But in an job interview situation, it's my second favorite.

但在工作面试的情况下，这是我第二喜欢的。

My first favorite is, so Lenny, are you legendary?

我最喜欢的第一个是，莱尼，你是传奇人物吗？

Christopher Lochhead: But, the answer to that question...

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：但是，这个问题的答案......

Christopher Lochhead: ...

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：...

Is always radically illustrative.

总是从根本上说明问题。

I'm not looking for anything.

我不是在寻找任何东西。

I'm looking for your answer.

我正在寻找你的答案。

Some people will say, "Yes." And they'll tell you why.

有些人会说：“是的。”他们会告诉你原因。

Some people will say, "Well, that's a big word." Whatever they're going to say.

有些人会说：“嗯，这个词太大了。”不管他们要说什么。

But, it is a purposely provocative question with one of, I think, the most powerful words in the English language, because I want to get a read on that person and how they respond to a purposely provocative question about themselves.

但是，这是一个故意挑衅性的问题，我认为这是英语中最有力的单词之一，因为我想了解那个人以及他们如何回应关于自己的故意挑衅性问题。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay, just a couple more questions.

好的，还有几个问题。

What's a favorite life motto that you like to repeat yourself or share with other people?

您最喜欢重复或与他人分享的人生格言是什么？

Christopher Lochhead: If you're lucky enough to make it to the top of a mountain, throw down a fucking rope.

Christopher Lochhead：如果你足够幸运能够到达山顶，就扔下一根该死的绳子。

And for me on that, Lenny, I'm somebody who has had and continues to have a radical amount of love and support in my life.

对我来说，莱尼，我的生活中已经并将继续拥有大量的爱和支持。

When I was young, I started with nothing and I got thrown out of school.

当我年轻的时候，我一无所有，最后被学校开除了。

And I didn't know until I was 21 because when I was young, learning differences weren't a thing.

直到我 21 岁的时候我才知道，因为当我年轻的时候，学习差异并不是什么问题。

And by the way, the way most of the world and education system deals with learning differences is completely fucked.

顺便说一句，世界上大多数国家和教育系统处理学习差异的方式完全是操蛋的。

But, that's a different conversation.

但是，那是不同的对话。

It's definitely improved, but it is nowhere near what it needs to be.

它确实有所改进，但还远未达到所需的水平。

And so I just think that we should never be held back by those views of others.

所以我认为我们永远不应该被其他人的观点所阻碍。

And so we need to be unencumbered.

所以我们需要不受阻碍。

Lenny: I love it.

莱尼：我喜欢。

Final question.

最后一个问题。

It's a dumb question.

这是一个愚蠢的问题。

Maybe to lead to something fun.

也许会带来一些有趣的事情。

You're a category pirate.

你是一个品类盗版者。

Do you have a favorite real pirate?

你有最喜欢的真正的海盗吗？

Christopher Lochhead: I have actually a lot of favorite pirates.

Christopher Lochhead：实际上我有很多最喜欢的海盗。

I'll tell you about one of them.

我会告诉你其中之一。

His name is Tony Etherington, but virtually nobody calls him Tony.

他的名字叫托尼·埃瑟林顿，但几乎没有人叫他托尼。

Virtually everybody calls him Doris.

几乎每个人都叫他多丽丝。

And Doris is a legendary surfer and surf explorer from the Gold Coast of Australia.

多丽丝（Doris）是来自澳大利亚黄金海岸的传奇冲浪者和冲浪探险家。

And I went on my first ever boat tour, surf adventure in Indonesia with Tony.

我和托尼一起在印度尼西亚进行了我的第一次乘船旅行和冲浪冒险。

Christopher Lochhead: There's a horrible story I'm thinking of telling you.

Christopher Lochhead：我想告诉你一个可怕的故事。

Anyway, you haven't been with a real pirate until you've been in stormy seas at night with Doris smoking cigarettes, drinking Jack Daniels in the bridge thinking maybe we're going to die, but this guy's probably not going to let that happen.

不管怎样，除非你晚上在波涛汹涌的大海上和多丽丝一起抽烟，在桥上喝杰克丹尼，想着也许我们会死，否则你就没有和真正的海盗在一起，但这家伙可能不会让这种情况发生。

And so Doris Etherington would be one of my top pirates of all time.

因此，多丽丝·埃瑟林顿将是我有史以来最顶尖的海盗之一。

And he's got the voice.

他有声音。

And he's got the attitude.

他有这个态度。

When I was having problems surfing, he would say to me, "All right, sit you down mate." Always smoking a cigarette.

当我冲浪遇到问题时，他会对我说：“好吧，坐下吧，伙计。”总是抽烟。

He's like, "I'd smoke long if we could have ciggyed up now." He goes, "You paddle out, wait for the biggest wave, lean into it, and get right up on it."

他说，“如果我们现在就可以抽烟的话，我会抽很长时间的。”他说：“你划出船去，等待最大的波浪，靠在它上面，然后就可以了。”

Christopher Lochhead: And so in our world, get right up on it is has become an expression for go for it.

Christopher Lochhead：所以在我们的世界中，get right up on it is 已经成为 go for it 的表达方式。

So I think we can all heed the words of Doris and get right up on it.

所以我认为我们都可以听从多丽丝的话并立即采取行动。

Lenny: I love that this question led to something fun and interesting.

莱尼：我喜欢这个问题带来了一些有趣的事情。

Chris, thank you so much for being here.

克里斯，非常感谢你来到这里。

This conversation was entertaining, insightful, spicy, fun, funny, everything I hoped it would be.

这次谈话很有趣、富有洞察力、辛辣、有趣、有趣，一切都是我所希望的。

Two final questions.

最后两个问题。

Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more and keep reading?

如果人们想了解更多信息并继续阅读，可以在哪里找到您？

And then two, how can listeners be useful to you?

第二，听众如何对你有用？

Christopher Lochhead: Probably categorypirates.com is the simplest spot to go.

Christopher Lochhead：categorypirates.com 可能是最简单的地方。

And how listeners can be useful to me?

听众如何对我有用？

Christopher Lochhead: It's what we talked about a moment ago.

Christopher Lochhead：这就是我们刚才讨论的内容。

The future needs you.

未来需要你。

And the future needs the people who have the courage to make a difference, because the people who are different are the ones who have made the biggest difference.

未来需要那些有勇气做出改变的人，因为与众不同的人才是做出最大改变的人。

Every time.

每次。

And we live in a world where we are rewarded for our sameness, for fitting in.

我们生活在这样一个世界：我们因相同、融入而获得回报。

Our education system teaches us what we're trying to do is find our place in the world.

我们的教育体系告诉我们，我们要做的就是找到我们在世界上的位置。

And listen, some of us do.

听着，我们中的一些人确实这么做了。

I know people who wanted to be a vet from the time they were kids, and that's the path they chose.

我知道有些人从小就想成为一名兽医，这就是他们选择的道路。

And they became vets.

他们成为了兽医。

And they love it.

他们喜欢它。

And they're wonderful people.

他们都是很棒的人。

And they have great careers.

他们有伟大的事业。

And they make a giant difference.

它们产生了巨大的影响。

And they've always known.

他们一直都知道。

And fucking a.

他妈的。

And so if you are somebody for whom you have found your place in the world, congratulations.

因此，如果您已经在世界上找到了自己的位置，那么恭喜您。

That's awesome.

太棒了。

And we also know, particularly in the innovator, entrepreneur, creator, marketer world, many of us, there was no place.

我们也知道，特别是在创新者、企业家、创造者、营销人员的世界中，我们很多人都没有一席之地。

Christopher Lochhead: And so my hope is that you either find your place or if you realize there's no place for you, that you further realize that you can make your place in the world.

Christopher Lochhead：所以我希望你要么找到自己的位置，要么如果你意识到没有你的位置，你会进一步意识到你可以在世界上找到自己的位置。

And fundamentally, that's what category design is about.

从根本上来说，这就是品类设计的意义所在。

It's about making a distinct, unique place in the world for yourself, for your product, and for your company.

它是为了为您自己、您的产品和您的公司在世界上创造一个独特的地方。

Because the people who are different make the biggest difference.

因为不同的人会产生最大的差异。

And so the great thing that people can do for me is to go into the world and make a different place for themself in a way that delivers massive value to others.

因此，人们能为我做的最伟大的事情就是走进这个世界，为自己创造一个不同的地方，为他人带来巨大的价值。

Lenny: Beautiful.

莱尼：美丽。

Chris, thank you again so much for being here.

克里斯，再次非常感谢你来到这里。

Christopher Lochhead: Lenny, bless you.

克里斯托弗·洛赫海德：莱尼，祝福你。

I love all things, Lenny.

我热爱一切，莱尼。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thanks Chris.

谢谢克里斯。

Bye everyone.: Thank you so much for listening.

大家再见：非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.

您可以在 lennyspodcast 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

com.

com.

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。