The ultimate guide to OKRs | Christina Wodtke (Stanford)
Christina Wodtke: ...
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：...
people do not value celebrations enough.
人们对庆祝活动的重视程度不够。
I've had CEOs who said, "Well, it was the middle of the quarter, so we didn't start OKRs, but we did start Friday celebrations and oh my God, things are already changing.
我遇到过一些首席执行官，他们说：“嗯，那是季度中期，所以我们没有启动 OKR，但我们确实开始了周五的庆祝活动，天哪，事情已经发生了变化。
Things are already getting better." The simple act of getting together and saying, "What was the most awesome thing that happened to you this week?
情况已经好转了。”简单的行为就是聚在一起说：“这周发生在你身上最棒的事情是什么？
What's the most awesome thing that happened in marketing?
营销中发生过的最棒的事情是什么？
What's the most awesome thing that design did this week?" It makes people feel like they're part of something really special, and it's super exciting.
本周设计界所做的最棒的事情是什么？”它让人们感觉自己是真正特别的事物的一部分，而且非常令人兴奋。
Lenny: Welcome to Lenny's Podcast, where I interview world class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products.
Lenny：欢迎来到 Lenny 的播客，我在这里采访了世界一流的产品领导者和增长专家，学习他们构建和发展当今最成功产品的来之不易的经验。
Today my guest is Christina Wodtke.
今天我的客人是克里斯蒂娜·沃特克。
Christina is a multi-time author, speaker, and lecturer at Stanford where she teaches product management, game design, and a few other topics.
克里斯蒂娜（Christina）是一位多次作家、演讲家和斯坦福大学讲师，她在斯坦福大学教授产品管理、游戏设计和其他一些主题。
She also consults with companies on their product development processes, and in particular, their OKR process.
她还为公司的产品开发流程，特别是 OKR 流程提供咨询。
Before getting into teaching and consulting, she was a product leader at LinkedIn, MySpace, Zynga, and Yahoo, as well as a founder of three different companies, plus an online magazine called Boxes and Arrows.
在从事教学和咨询工作之前，她是 LinkedIn、MySpace、Zynga 和 Yahoo 的产品负责人，也是三个不同公司以及一本名为 Boxes and Arrows 的在线杂志的创始人。
In our conversation, we go deep into OKRs.
在我们的谈话中，我们深入探讨了 OKR。
What is the atomic unit of an OKR?
OKR 的原子单位是什么？
What might be broken about your OKR process?
您的 OKR 流程可能会出现哪些问题？
Why you may want to roll out OKRs or change how you approach them.
为什么您可能想要推出 OKR 或改变您处理 OKR 的方式。
Lenny: Also, how the best companies leverage OKRs, the most common root causes of OKRs going wrong, the elements of a healthy OKR cadence, how OKRs fit with mission, vision, strategy, and roadmaps.
Lenny：此外，最好的公司如何利用 OKR、OKR 出错的最常见根本原因、健康 OKR 节奏的要素、OKR 如何与使命、愿景、战略和路线图相适应。
We also touch on the skill of storytelling.
我们还涉及讲故事的技巧。
And she also shares her most contrarian perspective on what new product managers should be focusing on.
她还分享了她对新产品经理应该关注的最逆向观点。
Christina is a wealth of knowledge and super interesting and fun, and I know you'll learn a lot from her.
克里斯蒂娜知识渊博，而且超级有趣、有趣，我知道你会从她身上学到很多东西。
Lenny: With that, I bring you Christina Wodtke, after a short word from our select sponsors.
莱尼：在我们选定的赞助商简短发言后，我为您带来了克里斯蒂娜·沃特克 (Christina Wodtke)。
Today's episode is brought to you by Miro, an online collaborative whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours.
今天的节目由 Miro 为您带来，Miro 是一款专为像您这样的团队设计的在线协作白板。
I have a quick request, head on over to my Miro board at miro.com/lenny and let me know which guests you'd want me to have on this year.
我有一个简短的请求，请前往 miro.com/lenny 上的 Miro 董事会，让我知道您今年希望我邀请哪些嘉宾。
I've already gotten a bunch of great suggestions, which you'll see when you go there, so just keep it coming.
我已经收到了很多很好的建议，当你去那里时你会看到这些建议，所以请继续提供。
And while you're on the Miro board, I encourage you to play around with the tool.
当您在 Miro 板上时，我鼓励您尝试使用该工具。
It's a great shared space to capture ideas, get feedback, and collaborate with your colleagues on anything that you're working on.
这是一个很棒的共享空间，可以用来捕捉想法、获取反馈以及与同事就您正在处理的任何事情进行协作。
Lenny: For example, with Miro, you can plan out next quarter's entire product strategy.
Lenny：比如说，有了Miro，你就可以规划出下个季度的整个产品策略。
You can start by brainstorming, using sticky notes, library actions, a voting tool, even an estimation app to scope out your team's prints.
您可以从集思广益开始，使用便利贴、库操作、投票工具，甚至评估应用程序来确定团队的打印内容。
Then your whole distributed team can come together around wireframes, draw ideas with a pen tool, and then put full mocks right into the Miro board, and with one of Miro's ready-made templates, you can go from discovery and research to product roadmaps to customer journey flows to final mocks, all in Miro.
然后，您的整个分布式团队可以围绕线框聚集在一起，使用钢笔工具绘制想法，然后将完整的模拟直接放入 Miro 板中，并使用 Miro 的现成模板之一，您可以从发现和研究到产品路线图，再到客户旅程流程，再到最终模拟，所有这些都在 Miro 中进行。
Head on over to miro.com/lenny to leave your suggestions.
请访问 miro.com/lenny 留下您的建议。
That's M-I-R-O .com/lenny.
那是 M-I-R-O .com/lenny。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Dovetail, the customer insights platform for teams that gets you from data to insights fast, no matter the method.
Lenny：本集由 Dovetail 为您带来，Dovetail 是一个面向团队的客户洞察平台，无论采用何种方法，都可以让您快速从数据获得洞察。
There's so much customer data to get through, from user interviews to NPS, sales calls, usability tests, support tickets, app reviews.
有大量的客户数据需要获取，从用户访谈到 NPS、销售电话、可用性测试、支持票证、应用程序评论。
It's a lot, and you know that if you're building something, hidden in that data are the insights that will lead you to building better products, and that's where Dovetail can help.
数量很多，而且您知道，如果您正在构建某些东西，隐藏在这些数据中的见解将引导您构建更好的产品，而这正是 Dovetail 可以提供帮助的地方。
Dovetail allows you to quickly analyze customer data from any source and transform it into evidence-based insights that your whole team can access.
Dovetail 允许您快速分析任何来源的客户数据，并将其转化为整个团队都可以访问的基于证据的见解。
If you're a product manager who needs insights to motivate your team, a designer validating your next pick feature or a researcher who needs to analyze fast, Dovetail is the collaborative insight platform your whole team can use.
如果您是需要洞察力来激励团队的产品经理、验证下一个选择功能的设计师或需要快速分析的研究人员，Dovetail 是整个团队都可以使用的协作洞察平台。
Go to dovetailapp.com/lenny to get started today for free.
立即前往 dovetailapp.com/lenny 免费开始使用。
That's dovetailapp.com/lenny.
那是 dovetailapp.com/lenny。
Christina, welcome to the podcast.
克里斯蒂娜，欢迎来到播客。
Christina Wodtke: Thanks, Lenny.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：谢谢，莱尼。
I'm really excited to be here.
我很高兴来到这里。
I've been hearing about you forever.
我一直都听说过你。
It's so cool to be here in person.
亲自来到这里真是太酷了。
Lenny: I'm more excited for you to be on the podcast.
莱尼：我更高兴你能出现在播客上。
I kind of see you as the queen of OKRs.
我认为您是 OKR 女王。
I don't know if you like that title or not, but in my mind that's where you sit currently, and partly because from what I can tell, you've done more to help people with OKRs and understand OKRs and fix their OKR process than most anyone else I know.
我不知道你是否喜欢这个标题，但在我看来，这就是你目前所处的位置，部分原因是据我所知，你在帮助 OKR 人员、理解 OKR 以及修复他们的 OKR 流程方面比我认识的大多数人都做得更多。
As I'm sure you know, a lot of people just don't like OKRs, are kind of anti-OKR and have had bad experiences with OKRs.
我相信您知道，很多人就是不喜欢 OKR，有些人是反 OKR 的，并且在 OKR 方面有过不好的经历。
And what I want to try to do with our chat today is to try to change people's mind, who are maybe anti-OKR and to help people optimize their OKR process if they're having an okay time with OKRs.
我今天想通过我们的聊天尝试改变那些可能反对 OKR 的人的想法，并帮助人们优化他们的 OKR 流程（如果他们对 OKR 感到满意的话）。
How does that sound?
听起来怎么样？
Christina Wodtke: That sounds just fine, although I have to say in the tech industry, it's a little too easy to be clean.
Christina Wodtke：听起来不错，但我不得不说，在科技行业，这有点太容易清洁了。
Maybe when I'm a emperor for life, that might be my title.
也许当我成为终身皇帝时，这可能就是我的头衔。
Lenny: That might be by the end of this podcast, we will crown you emperor for life.
莱尼：也许到这个播客结束时，我们就会加冕你为终身皇帝。
Lenny: Okay.
莱尼：好的。
That'll be our goal.
这将是我们的目标。
So, as maybe a first question, I want to give people kind of this confidence that OKRs can lead to great product, great success.
因此，也许是第一个问题，我想让人们相信 OKR 可以带来伟大的产品和巨大的成功。
What can you share, just to give people a sense of, "Here's how many companies who are having a great time with OKRs, here's the impact OKRs can have on your company if you roll it out or make it more optimal."
您可以分享什么，只是为了让人们有这样一种感觉：“有多少公司在 OKR 中度过了愉快的时光，如果您推出 OKR 或使其变得更加优化，那么 OKR 可能会对您的公司产生影响。”
Christina Wodtke: I've seen so many companies do extremely well with it, and I would say that not all companies will be successful, period.
Christina Wodtke：我见过很多公司在这方面做得非常好，但我想说的是，并不是所有公司都会成功。
Companies are really successful with it are companies that...
真正在这方面取得成功的公司是...
I think I can swear a little, they have their shit together.
我想我可以发誓，他们在一起了。
Christina Wodtke: And the first step is, get your shit together.
Christina Wodtke：第一步是，整理好你的东西。
They have strategy, they have empowered teams, they have psychological safety, and then the OKRs are that extra layer that supercharges them.
他们有策略，他们有授权的团队，他们有心理安全感，然后 OKR 就是给他们增压的额外层。
So, I say OKRs are more of a vitamin, they're not a medicine.
所以，我说 OKR 更像是一种维生素，而不是一种药物。
So, if you take OKRs and you're like, "Oh, this will fix everything that's wrong with you." No, that's not going to happen.
所以，如果你采用 OKR，你会想，“哦，这会解决你所有的问题。”不，那不会发生。
It's just going to reveal everything that's wrong with your company.
它只会揭露你公司的所有问题。
But if you've done the hard work of getting your company to be strong, it's amazing how well it works.
但如果你付出了艰苦的努力让你的公司变得强大，那么它的运作效果会令人惊讶。
It works really well with startups.
它非常适合初创公司。
It works really well with multidisciplinary product teams.
它与多学科产品团队配合得非常好。
I've seen it over and over.
我已经看过一遍又一遍了。
I don't really have permission to talk about all my clients, but I have one client that I'm just working with right now, and it's a purpose built company.
我实际上没有权限谈论我的所有客户，但我现在正在与一个客户合作，这是一家专门建立的公司。
So, in other words, they exist in order to make the lives of their customers better, healthier, wellness.
所以，换句话说，它们的存在是为了让顾客的生活变得更好、更健康、更幸福。
Christina Wodtke: And so, they used OKRs to really create this amazing focus on, what does it mean to make everybody's life healthier?
Christina Wodtke：因此，他们使用 OKR 真正创造了令人惊叹的关注点：让每个人的生活更健康意味着什么？
And one thing that came out of applying OKRs was this wonderful idea, they're bringing robots into their warehouses, not to replace their humans, they're keeping all the humans, but to reduce the amount of back problems their humans have.
应用 OKR 产生的一件事是这个绝妙的想法，他们将机器人带入仓库，不是为了取代人类，而是保留所有人类，而是为了减少人类的背部问题。
So, the humans are doing much more complex tasks, thinking about inventory and how to be more efficient.
因此，人类正在执行更复杂的任务，思考库存以及如何提高效率。
And the robots are doing the heavy lifting.
机器人正在承担繁重的工作。
Christina Wodtke: They've been growing and growing like crazy.
Christina Wodtke：他们一直在疯狂地成长。
And the OKRs are this very simple way of allowing you to focus on what actually matters and making sure you don't forget in the chaos of everyday life.
OKR 是一种非常简单的方法，可以让您专注于真正重要的事情，并确保您不会在日常生活的混乱中忘记。
So, if you know what you're trying to do, then the OKRs just help that happen.
因此，如果您知道自己想要做什么，那么 OKR 就会帮助您实现这一目标。
It aligns the company.
它使公司保持一致。
And I think they're a lot like dieting advice, in that they say, "Eat less and exercise more." Well, that's really simple.
我认为它们很像节食建议，因为他们说“少吃多运动”。嗯，这真的很简单。
It's worked for me.
这对我有用。
I've lost 25 pounds doing eat less and exercise more.
通过少吃多运动，我的体重减轻了 25 磅。
But wow, it's hard.
但是哇，这很难。
It's really hard to do.
确实很难做到。
And I think about OKRs that way.
我也是这样考虑 OKR 的。
You have to just stay with it and be strong and committed, and that will help.
你必须坚持下去，坚强并坚定，这会有帮助。
Lenny: There's a number of things I want to follow up on in what you said.
莱尼：你所说的有很多事情我想跟进。
Lenny: So, I'll start with, you talked about the benefits of OKR.
Lenny：首先，您谈到了 OKR 的好处。
If you had to just boil down, here's what OKRs can do for you as a company, as an organization, what would that be?
如果您必须归结为以下几点，那么 OKR 可以为您作为一家公司、一个组织做些什么，那会是什么？
What's just the main benefit of OKRs at your company?
OKR 在贵公司的主要好处是什么？
Christina Wodtke: The main benefit is that there's a lot of concrete action through a OKR that you don't always get from strategy.
Christina Wodtke：主要的好处是，通过 OKR 可以采取很多具体行动，而这些行动并不总是从战略中获得。
Strategy tends to be a little longer, a little more Muji Muji.
策略往往会长一点，无印良品一点。
And then when you get the OKR, you say, "This quarter is what we're actually going to be doing, and these are the numbers we're actually going to be pushing further." So, that's really good.
然后，当您获得 OKR 时，您会说：“本季度是我们实际要做的事情，这些是我们实际上要进一步推动的数字。”所以，这真的很好。
It creates a cadence of progress, which is incredibly valuable.
它创造了一种进步的节奏，这是非常有价值的。
It creates alignment.
它创建对齐。
There's no question what the single most important thing to do in the company is, assuming you're doing radical focus and you don't have 20 OKRs every quarter.
毫无疑问，在公司里最重要的事情是什么，假设你正在做彻底的专注，并且每个季度没有 20 个 OKR。
Ugh, don't like to think about that.
呃，不喜欢去想这个。
And last of all, the thing that I don't see a lot of people talking about that I think is really amazing, is because an OKR focuses you for one quarter and at the end of the quarter you grade your OKRs.
最后，我没有看到很多人谈论我认为真正令人惊奇的事情，因为 OKR 让你专注于一个季度，并在季度末对你的 OKR 进行评分。
Christina Wodtke: How well did we do?
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我们做得怎么样？
What got in our way?
是什么阻碍了我们？
It creates this learning cycle.
它创造了这个学习周期。
So, then you can take that information and say, "Next quarter, what should we try next?" And I think the time is the thing that a lot of leaders really struggle to think about.
因此，您可以利用该信息并说：“下个季度，我们接下来应该尝试什么？”我认为时间是很多领导者真正难以思考的问题。
But if you've been really focusing on say, retention for one quarter, two quarters, and then you go over and say, "Okay, let's work on acquisition." You don't forget all the things you learned about retention.
但如果你真的专注于一个季度、两个季度的保留，然后你会说：“好吧，让我们开始收购。”您不会忘记您学到的有关保留的所有知识。
No, you're just building knowledge and building knowledge and building knowledge, which means your company will constantly get smarter and more effective.
不，你只是在积累知识、积累知识、积累知识，这意味着你的公司将不断变得更智能、更高效。
Lenny: I love this.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
So, just to summarize, the main benefits are focuses you, lines, creates a cadence and creates a learning cycle.
所以，总而言之，主要的好处是集中你的注意力、线条、创造节奏并创造学习周期。
And maybe a simple way to think about it is, it's like a plug-and-play product development process.
也许一个简单的思考方式是，它就像一个即插即用的产品开发过程。
You don't have to invent everything from scratch.
你不必从头开始发明一切。
There's this thing that exists.
有这个东西存在。
I know it's not the whole piece of it, but yeah, maybe...
我知道这不是全部，但是，是的，也许......
You're nodding and I'm curious, when I say that, what comes to mind?
你点点头，我很好奇，当我这么说时，你会想到什么？
Christina Wodtke: Yeah, I guess you have to have a product development process, because obviously otherwise you're just running around chickens with your heads cut off, but it keeps you from making the same stupid mistake over and over and over again, which has been a goal in my life.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：是的，我想你必须有一个产品开发流程，因为显然否则你只是在被砍掉头的鸡周围跑，但它可以防止你一遍又一遍地犯同样的愚蠢错误，这一直是我一生的目标。
My motto is, "Make new mistakes." So, by having this focus on really important things, not to spread yourself too thin, like the famous peanut butter memo from Yahoo, which I guess was long ago enough, not everybody remembers it.
我的座右铭是“犯新错误”。因此，通过将注意力集中在真正重要的事情上，不要让自己太分散，就像雅虎著名的花生酱备忘录一样，我想这已经是很久以前的事了，不是每个人都记得它。
But companies have a tendency to try to do everything all at this exact moment.
但公司倾向于在此时此刻把所有事情都做完。
And so, everybody's working with 1% on this, 1% on that and 1% on the other.
因此，每个人都在这个上投入 1%，在那个上投入 1%，在另一个上投入 1%。
And instead you use the OKRs and say, "Okay, this is the big rock we're going to move.
相反，你使用 OKR 并说：“好吧，这是我们要移动的大石头。
This is the big thing that's going to happen this quarter, and you can fiddle around with all the other stuff if you want, but this one has to move."
这是本季度将发生的一件大事，如果你愿意，你可以摆弄所有其他的东西，但这个必须改变。”
Christina Wodtke: And then the next quarter, the next thing gets moved and so on.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：然后下个季度，下一个事情就会发生变化，依此类推。
And it just accelerates the speed of your accomplishments so much.
它只会大大加快你取得成就的速度。
It's kind of mind-blowing.
这有点令人兴奋。
I've actually been running my life for the last eight, 10 years on OKRs as well because I'm ADHD and I'm all over the place.
事实上，在过去的八年、十年里，我一直在按照 OKR 来管理我的生活，因为我患有注意力缺陷多动症，而且我的生活到处都是。
And so, looking at my OKRs every single Monday and saying, "Well, am I going to work on a book?
因此，每周一查看我的 OKR 并说：“好吧，我要写一本书吗？
Am I going to work on my teaching?
我要继续我的教学工作吗？
Am I going to work...
我要去上班吗...
Where do I want to put that attention?" It changes me personally, just like it changes my clients.
我想把注意力放在哪里？”它改变了我个人，就像它改变了我的客户一样。
Lenny: What's an example of your personal care?
莱尼：您个人护理的一个例子是什么？
You said writing a book maybe could be one?
你说写一本书也许是其中之一？
Christina Wodtke: Well, I wish, but no, it's actually been health.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：嗯，我希望如此，但不，实际上是健康。
One of the great things about managing my OKRs for so long is I discovered this pattern, which is that anytime things get busy, I just stop taking care of myself completely.
长期管理 OKR 的好处之一是我发现了这种模式，即每当事情变得忙碌时，我就会完全不再照顾自己。
And that's really bad because if I'm healthy, I can be there for my kid, I can be there for my students, I can be there for my colleagues.
这真的很糟糕，因为如果我身体健康，我就可以陪伴我的孩子，我可以陪伴我的学生，我可以陪伴我的同事。
So, this quarter's been about setting up habits of well-being and like I said, I've been really pleased at how it's been going.
所以，这个季度的重点是建立幸福的习惯，就像我说的，我对它的进展感到非常满意。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
I haven't heard that before.
我以前没听说过。
What would you say is kind of the atomic unit of an OKR?
您认为 OKR 的原子单元是什么？
So, people talk about, "We're doing OKRs, we're not doing OKRs".
因此，人们谈论“我们正在做 OKR，我们没有做 OKR”。
What's the line between we have goals and a plan, and we're actually doing OKRs as a concept?
我们的目标和计划与我们实际上将 OKR 作为一个概念来执行之间的界限是什么？
Christina Wodtke: Gosh, what is the atomic unit?
Christina Wodtke：天哪，原子单位是什么？
That's a really lovely question.
这是一个非常可爱的问题。
I would say, "What am I doing this week to get closer to our goals?" If you could answer that question, you could give up all the OKR stuff, but if you just asked the question, "What are we doing this week to get closer to our strategic goals, our longer term goals?" That is the very heart of it, because there's the tomorrow problem, like my kid will do his homework tomorrow, and tomorrow never comes.
我会说，“这周我要做什么才能更接近我们的目标？”如果你能回答这个问题，你就可以放弃所有 OKR 的东西，但如果你只是问这个问题，“我们本周要做什么来更接近我们的战略目标，我们的长期目标？”这就是它的核心，因为存在明天的问题，就像我的孩子明天要做作业，但明天永远不会到来。
It's always tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow.
永远都是明天、明天、明天。
So, what are we doing right now?
那么，我们现在在做什么？
And I find that it's really useful to tie it into temporal landmarks.
我发现将其与时间地标联系起来确实很有用。
Christina Wodtke: By that I mean that there are things like birthdays or New Year's or Mondays or quarters that are already built into the world.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克（Christina Wodtke）：我的意思是，生日、新年、星期一或季度等事情已经内置于世界中。
And so, we piggyback onto them and we say, "Okay, it's Q1, boom, we're going to stop.
所以，我们背负着他们，我们说，“好吧，现在是第一季度，繁荣，我们要停下来了。
We're going to take a breath, we're going to look at everything and we're going to say, 'What do we actually have to do?'" Raising your head above the noise is really vital.
我们会深吸一口气，审视一切，然后问自己，‘我们实际上必须做什么？’”抬起头来超越噪音确实至关重要。
"And then this quarter, remember we have a mission over here and we have a vision and we have a strategy.
“然后这个季度，请记住我们在这里有一个使命，我们有一个愿景，我们有一个战略。
Okay, this quarter's all about, what?" And you move towards that.
好吧，这个季度的重点是什么？”然后你就朝着这个方向前进。
Christina Wodtke: I know there's a lot of talk about outcomes and I think that's absolutely right.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我知道有很多关于结果的讨论，我认为这是绝对正确的。
It's really critical to think about outcomes because that gives you flexibility on how to attack the problem.
考虑结果非常重要，因为这可以让您灵活地解决问题。
But the biggest question is, why?
但最大的问题是，为什么？
Why do we get up in the morning?
我们为什么早上起床？
What are we trying to actually do?
我们实际上想做什么？
Are we making a difference at all?
我们真的有所作为吗？
And if you can say, "This week I'm going to do this," and then at the end of the week you say, "Oh, that worked or that didn't work," and you can try something new or keep going.
如果你可以说，“这周我要做这个”，然后在周末你说，“哦，那个有效或无效”，你可以尝试一些新的东西或继续下去。
That's just invaluable.
这简直是无价之宝。
Lenny: That is really interesting that your answer wasn't like its outcome or some key results and 70% of success is goal, that there's something more fundamental, which is just being very clear on what you should be doing next week and we should be focusing on now.
Lenny：这真的很有趣，你的答案不像它的结果或一些关键结果，70% 的成功是目标，还有一些更基本的东西，这只是非常清楚你下周应该做什么，我们现在应该关注。
And that translates into what kind of the OKR process ends up being.
这转化为最终的 OKR 流程类型。
Christina Wodtke: Oh, yeah.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：哦，是的。
Can I tell you a little story?
我可以告诉你一个小故事吗？
Christina Wodtke: So, this is personal OKRs, but it works for everything else.
Christina Wodtke：所以，这是个人 OKR，但它适用于其他一切。
It's always easier to talk about personal OKRs because I don't have to do an NDA with myself, so I apologize.
谈论个人 OKR 总是更容易，因为我不必与自己签订 NDA，所以我很抱歉。
But I've had this accountability group with these three women for at least five years, and every Monday we send our OKRs to each other, and I do it the way I do it in the book.
但我和这三位女性组成的问责小组已经至少五年了，每周一我们都会互相发送 OKR，我按照书中的方式去做。
Another woman, she had the getting things done approach where it was like, "How percentage did I make and what am I trying to do?" And exactly, super detailed.
另一位女性，她的方法是把事情做好，就像是“我赚了多少百分比，我想做什么？”准确地说，非常详细。
Christina Wodtke: And then another woman was like, "Ah, I don't know.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：然后另一个女人说，“啊，我不知道。
I guess I'm trying to think about...
我想我正在努力思考...
What am I trying to think about?
我在想什么？
Oh, maybe I should think about if I have to get out of product management or not." Well, now the woman who was very precise has kind of disappeared.
哦，也许我应该考虑一下我是否必须退出产品管理。”好吧，现在那个非常精确的女人已经消失了。
I think it was just something that she couldn't keep up that level of diligence.
我认为这只是她无法保持那种勤奋程度的原因。
While the woman who was hand-waving, she actually has gone from a product manager to a consultant to a life coach, and she's making so much money, and she is so damn happy, and she has a new house.
那个挥手的女人，她实际上已经从产品经理变成了顾问，变成了生活教练，而且她赚了这么多钱，她太幸福了，而且她有了新房子。
And so, I really do think that the heart of everything is answering that question.
所以，我确实认为一切的核心都是回答这个问题。
Christina Wodtke: What am I doing this week to get to the outcome I really want?
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：这周我要做什么才能达到我真正想要的结果？
Her outcome was to not worry about money and be joyful with what she was doing.
她的结果是不再担心金钱，并对自己所做的事情感到高兴。
And she got that just by every Monday saying, "What the fuck am I doing here?
她每周一都会说：“我他妈的在这里做什么？
What am I trying to do again?" And it worked.
我又想做什么？”它奏效了。
Lenny: That is a really cool framework.
Lenny：这是一个非常酷的框架。
So, the question you ask yourself every week is, "What am I doing today that's helping me get closer to my outcomes?" Is that the word to use outcome?
因此，您每周都会问自己一个问题：“我今天在做什么可以帮助我更接近目标？”这是用结果这个词吗？
Christina Wodtke: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：是的，是的，完全正确。
And it is an outcome.
这是一个结果。
In her case, it was not worrying about money, having a house, having joy in her work.
对她来说，不担心钱，拥有房子，享受工作的乐趣。
I think a lot of us get caught up in, do I want to be a writer?
我想我们很多人都会陷入这样的困境：我想成为一名作家吗？
Do I want to be this thing?
我想成为这样的人吗？
When the reality is, we just want to be satisfied and happy.
当现实如此时，我们只想满足和快乐。
And with a business, it's the same thing.
对于企业来说，也是同样的事情。
We get caught up in this or that little details, but you need to go back and say, "What was our mission?" I mean, think about it.
我们会陷入这样或那样的小细节中，但你需要回过头来说，“我们的使命是什么？”我的意思是，想一想。
How often do companies ever talk about their mission?
公司多久谈论一次他们的使命？
It's like they set it, they forget it, it's super vague, it's useless.
就像他们设置了它，他们忘记了它，它非常模糊，毫无用处。
Christina Wodtke: Instead, it's good to think, "Okay, when we started this company or when we changed this company or grew this company," or whatever you want to go to, there's always these various points in time.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：相反，最好想想，“好吧，当我们创办这家公司时，或者当我们改变这家公司或发展这家公司时，”或者无论你想去哪里，总会有这些不同的时间点。
"Why?
“为什么？
What did we think would work?
我们认为什么可行？
And let's go back to that moment of meaning and reconnect with it and then make it real in the activities we take every week." And I like every week rather than every day.
让我们回到那个有意义的时刻并重新联系它，然后在我们每周进行的活动中将其变为现实。”我喜欢每周而不是每天。
Because the reality is we still have to do progress reviews and we still have to do accounting and whatnot, but if we just push a little bit each week, over time amazing things happen.
因为现实是我们仍然需要进行进度审查，我们仍然需要进行会计等等，但是如果我们每周稍微推动一点，随着时间的推移，惊人的事情就会发生。
Lenny: So, I want to drill into some of these things, of just how mission, vision, roadmap and OKRs kind of fit together, just to be pretty tactical.
Lenny：所以，我想深入探讨其中的一些内容，即使命、愿景、路线图和 OKR 是如何结合在一起的，只是为了具有相当的战术性。
So, as a PM say, or founder, what is the process you recommend for working through mission, vision, and then OKRs, and then roadmap?
那么，正如 PM 或创始人所说，您建议执行使命、愿景、OKR、路线图的流程是什么？
Christina Wodtke: I think it's really important to have a mission, and people get freaked out because they think the mission's forever.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我认为有一个使命非常重要，人们会感到害怕，因为他们认为使命是永远的。
And so, they make them super vague so they can do anything.
因此，他们让他们变得非常模糊，这样他们就可以做任何事情。
But instead, if you think about it, if the mission lasts for five years, what would you like to see happen in five years?
但相反，如果你想一想，如果任务持续五年，你希望看到五年后发生什么？
And it might be, "We're going to bring amazing games that delight our users and we're proud to ship into the world." That could be a mission.
它可能是，“我们将带来令人惊叹的游戏，让我们的用户感到高兴，我们很自豪能够将其推向世界。”这可能是一个使命。
And it's like, "Okay, I could do that over the next five years." And then, there'll be a point where you probably want to change again.
就像，“好吧，我可以在未来五年内做到这一点。”然后，到了某个时刻你可能想再次改变。
So, you're bringing, what does it mean?
那么，你带来了，这意味着什么？
What does it mean to be proud?
骄傲是什么意思？
What does it mean to delight people?
使人高兴是什么意思？
Really talk about that and get into the nitty-gritty.
真正谈论这一点并进入实质内容。
And then out of that would come your strategy, which is this is going to be our year of exploration, if you have enough money for such a thing.
然后你的策略就会随之而来，如果你有足够的资金来做这样的事情，这将是我们探索的一年。
Christina Wodtke: Or this is going to be our year of making our current games a little bit better.
Christina Wodtke：或者说今年我们将让我们当前的游戏变得更好一点。
I'm in a very game mindset today because I was talking to a client.
今天我处于一种非常游戏的心态，因为我正在与客户交谈。
So, you get into that.
所以，你开始吧。
Okay, now we have this sort of idea of what we're doing with our year.
好的，现在我们对这一年要做的事情有了这样的想法。
Now, let's talk about the quarter.
现在，我们来谈谈本季度的情况。
And you can use OKRs for the year, but the quarter is where they have the most impact, I believe.
您可以在全年使用 OKR，但我相信季度是它们影响最大的地方。
Spotify talked about doing quarterly performance reviews because it's long enough to get something done and short enough to not forget what you did.
Spotify 谈到进行季度绩效评估，因为它足够长，可以完成某件事，而且足够短，可以让你不会忘记你所做的事情。
And I think that sums it up perfectly for OKRs as well.
我认为这也完美地概括了 OKR。
So, once you know where you're trying to be, and once you know what you want to do with your year, you can say, "What are the things we want to see happen across these four quarters?"
因此，一旦您知道自己想要达到的目标，并且知道这一年想要做什么，您就可以说：“我们希望看到这四个季度发生哪些事情？”
Christina Wodtke: I call it sort of a half-built strategy because too much strategy ties you down and too little strategy, you're too responsive to everything.
Christina Wodtke：我称其为半成品策略，因为太多的策略会束缚你，而太少的策略会让你对一切都过于敏感。
So, you say, "Okay." Let's say you're building a new game.
所以，你说：“好吧。”假设您正在开发一款新游戏。
So, Q1 is about figuring out what it is and what's going to be interesting to users.
因此，第一季度是要弄清楚它是什么以及用户会感兴趣什么。
And then Q2 is going to be about getting some early prototypes out and validating those concepts.
然后第二季度将推出一些早期原型并验证这些概念。
And Q3 is about building extensive, and Q4 is about marketing and throwing it out, something like that.
第三季度是关于广泛建设，第四季度是关于营销和抛弃，类似的事情。
And you could venture them into your outcomes.
你可以将它们投入到你的成果中。
A lot of people who are very venture driven don't understand outcomes, objectives, excuse me, objectives, outcomes, potato, potato.
很多非常热衷于风险投资的人不理解结果、目标，对不起，目标、结果，土豆，土豆。
Christina Wodtke: It's really something inspiring.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：这确实是鼓舞人心的事情。
Q1, we have a vision for this game that will drive us forward.
Q1，我们对这款游戏有一个愿景，它将推动我们前进。
I don't know, I'm making stuff up, which just means it's going to be imperfect.
我不知道，我正在编造一些东西，这只是意味着它会不完美。
Although I do warn people not to get too caught up in wordsmithing.
尽管我确实警告人们不要太沉迷于文字创作。
We can spend hours doing that.
我们可以花几个小时来做这件事。
And then, you get to ask my favorite question, how do we know?
然后，你可以问我最喜欢的问题，我们怎么知道？
I love, how do we know?
我爱，我们怎么知道？
That's how you get to outcomes.
这就是你获得结果的方式。
So, what does it mean to have a vision for a product we believe will be successful and meet our mission, whatnot?
那么，拥有一个我们相信会成功并实现我们使命的产品愿景意味着什么？
Well, what would it be?
嗯，那会是什么？
How are we going to figure this out?
我们该如何解决这个问题？
So, something about user testing, probably.
那么，可能是关于用户测试的一些事情。
Maybe we do a landing page, see how many people are excited by the concept.
也许我们做一个登陆页面，看看有多少人对这个概念感到兴奋。
Maybe we do some technical builds to see if it's actually buildable.
也许我们会做一些技术构建来看看它是否真的可以构建。
What are the sort of things that would tell us, yes, please go forward?
什么样的事情会告诉我们“是的，请继续”？
We might be excited about VR.
我们可能会对 VR 感到兴奋。
Well, how do we know that VR would be profitable for us?
那么，我们怎么知道 VR 会给我们带来利润呢？
Christina Wodtke: So, once we answer those three, how would we know, then we can know that by March we have the results we need.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：所以，一旦我们回答了这三个问题，我们如何知道，然后我们就可以知道到三月份我们会得到我们需要的结果。
And we're always going to try to think about the best possible future, the whole moonshot thing, which I'm a fan of, but the reality is, the reason we do that estimating is so we get good at estimating.
我们总是会尝试思考最好的未来，整个登月计划，我是它的粉丝，但现实是，我们进行估算的原因是为了让我们擅长估算。
Everybody sucks at estimating when you first start, and a lot of people think it's like black magic or something you're born with.
当你刚开始的时候，每个人都不擅长估计，而且很多人认为这就像黑魔法或你与生俱来的东西。
But no, it's a learned skill.
但不，这是一项习得的技能。
You practice estimating, you get good at estimating, you get better and better and better.
你练习估算，你会擅长估算，你会变得越来越好。
And being good at estimating is incredibly valuable as a business skill.
善于估计作为一项商业技能非常有价值。
So, there's your OKRs, right?
那么，这就是您的 OKR，对吗？
And then for Q2, we don't know how Q1 is going to go, so we're just going to leave the objective there, but we're not going to get into the nitty-gritty OKRs.
然后对于第二季度，我们不知道第一季度将如何进行，因此我们将把目标留在那里，但我们不会深入讨论 OKR 的细节。
Key results cause a lot of arguing among the team, takes forever to track them down, just wait and see how Q1 goes.
关键结果会在团队中引起很多争论，需要很长时间才能找到它们，只需等待，看看第一季度进展如何。
And that way you have enough play within your strategy to react to new information.
这样你就可以在策略中发挥足够的作用来对新信息做出反应。
Lenny: The question you talked about of, how do we know?
莱尼：你提到的问题，我们怎么知道？
That's to decide the objective or the key results?
那是决定目标还是关键结果？
Lenny: Okay, got it.
莱尼：好的，明白了。
You're saying objective.
你说的是客观的。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
Christina Wodtke: Objective.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：客观。
My bad.
我的不好。
I didn't signal when I turned.
我转身时没有打手势。
No.
不。
Lenny: Oh, okay, cool.
莱尼：哦，好吧，酷。
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Christina Wodtke: Objective is that vision for the quarter.
Christina Wodtke：目标是本季度的愿景。
This is what we're we're driving towards in this quarter.
这就是我们本季度的目标。
And then the key results, you answered the question, how do we know we succeeded?
然后是关键结果，你回答了这个问题，我们如何知道我们成功了？
Lenny: And so, what was the tip you gave of turning strategy into the objective?
莱尼：那么，关于将战略转化为目标，您给出的建议是什么？
How do you translate from strategy to deciding your objective for the core?
您如何从战略转变为确定核心目标？
Christina Wodtke: Oh, that sits between mission and OKRs.
Christina Wodtke：哦，这介于使命和 OKR 之间。
So, strategy, I've been really shocked lately.
所以，策略，我最近真的很震惊。
I've discovered that lots of companies don't seem to have any strategy whatsoever, which just blows my mind.
我发现很多公司似乎没有任何战略，这让我大吃一惊。
So, if you think about strategy as a strongly held hypothesis about a way to win in the market and fulfill our vision, then you can say, "Well, our mission is this, or vision..." I kind of use them interchangeably because I think they are kind of interchangeable, and I'm not going to get in semantics in the bitty bits, but the strategy is really important because it says, "We think we're fulfilling our mission of connecting people, by what?"
因此，如果你将战略视为一种关于赢得市场并实现我们愿景的强有力的假设，那么你可以说，“好吧，我们的使命是这个，或者愿景……”我可以互换使用它们，因为我认为它们是可以互换的，而且我不会深入讨论语义，但战略非常重要，因为它说，“我们认为我们正在通过什么来实现连接人们的使命？”
Christina Wodtke: I think that there are a lot of good product strategy pieces out there, but businesses have a lot of questions to answer.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我认为有很多好的产品策略，但企业有很多问题需要回答。
Are we going to ship physical products?
我们要运送实物产品吗？
Are we going to ship digital products?
我们要运送数字产品吗？
Are we going to be a service?
我们要做服务吗？
Are we going to do a subscription?
我们要订阅吗？
Strategy answers those questions.
战略回答了这些问题。
They say, "We're going to have a game.
他们说：“我们要打一场比赛。
It's going to be an Apple Arcade.
这将是一个苹果商场。
We have a hypothesis that's actually going to help us.
我们有一个实际上对我们有帮助的假设。
We're going to build in there and build our customer base there in order to get name recognition, which we can then use on other platforms." That's the sort of strategic stuff.
我们将在那里建立并建立我们的客户群，以获得知名度，然后我们可以在其他平台上使用。”这就是战略性的东西。
And then we're like, "Oh great, you have a vision.
然后我们会说，“哦，太棒了，你有远见。
What are we doing?
我们在做什么？
What does that actually mean for us this year, this quarter, and then eventually this week?"
这对我们今年、本季度以及最终本周实际上意味着什么？”
Lenny: For the actual OKRs you end up with, is it as simple as just with the template of an OKR, is it just objective three-ish key results?
Lenny：对于你最终得到的实际 OKR，是否像 OKR 模板一样简单，只是客观的三个左右的关键结果？
Is there anything more to it that you recommend folks use?
您还有什么建议人们使用的吗？
Christina Wodtke: No. Simple things give you a lot more room to fiddle.
Christina Wodtke：不。简单的事情会给你更多的发挥空间。
And I feel like every time I see people make really complicated methodologies, they get way too caught up in the rules and they don't think about, what are we actually trying to do?
我觉得每次我看到人们制定非常复杂的方法时，他们都过于拘泥于规则，而没有思考，我们实际上想做什么？
So, simple is better.
所以，简单更好。
Lenny: And what's your rule of thumb for number of key results?
莱尼：您对关键结果数量的经验法则是什么？
Christina Wodtke: I like three.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我喜欢三个。
I think about it as triangulating.
我认为这是三角测量。
I always like something that's really hardcore numbers.
我总是喜欢一些真正硬核的数字。
I like something that's a little squishier, like a quality, make sure you don't forget about it.
我喜欢稍微软一点的东西，比如品质，确保你不要忘记它。
And I usually like something that involves a dollar sign, but it's really going to be specific to what objective you're trying to do.
我通常喜欢涉及美元符号的东西，但它实际上是针对你想要实现的目标的。
Launch a new product.
推出新产品。
Well, you probably want to make a certain amount of money, well you want a certain amount of reach, and then you want that delight thing.
好吧，你可能想赚一定数量的钱，你想要一定程度的影响力，然后你想要那种令人愉悦的东西。
And then when you get into the delight thing, you can say, "Well, is it going to be Metacritic?
然后当你进入令人高兴的事情时，你可以说，“嗯，是 Metacritic 吗？
Is it going to be a survey?
这将是一项调查吗？
Is it going to be NPS?" You know, could figure out what one makes the most sense for you.
会是NPS吗？”你知道，可以找出对你来说最有意义的一个。
Lenny: That's an interesting topic.
莱尼：这是一个有趣的话题。
Is there anything you find there to measure customer happiness, satisfaction, delight?
您发现有什么可以衡量客户的幸福感、满意度和愉悦感吗？
What have you seen work best for that sort of squishy stuff?
你见过什么最适合这种软乎乎的东西？
Christina Wodtke: I know there's a big backlash against NPS.
Christina Wodtke：我知道人们对 NPS 有很大的反对。
I think it's okay.
我觉得还可以。
It's really funny because you can be insanely successful with a game that people feel yucky to play, and you can be incredibly successful with a product people hate using.
这真的很有趣，因为你可以通过一款人们觉得难玩的游戏取得疯狂的成功，而你可以通过一款人们讨厌使用的产品取得令人难以置信的成功。
Zoom, for example.
例如，缩放。
How many times have you heard Zoom get cussed out?
您听过多少次 Zoom 被骂？
So, the question is, why would I care about that if I'm making money?
那么问题来了，如果我能赚钱，为什么还要关心这个呢？
And I would say the answer is, would you like to keep making money?
我想说的答案是，你想继续赚钱吗？
It's always about retention.
这始终与保留有关。
Christina Wodtke: So, anytime you can get strong retention signals, I think those are good signals to get.
Christina Wodtke：所以，只要你能获得强烈的保留信号，我认为这些都是很好的信号。
So, that comes out of qualitative research.
所以，这是来自定性研究。
There's nothing better.
没有什么比这更好的了。
So, if you don't have a qualitative researcher on your team, I think you should get one.
因此，如果您的团队中没有定性研究员，我认为您应该找一位。
You need somebody who knows how to separate what people say and what they do, and what the truth is in that.
你需要一个知道如何区分人们所说和所做的事情以及其中的真相的人。
And then use that to apply to your strategic decisions, so that happy users sell your product for you, right?
然后将其应用于您的战略决策，以便满意的用户为您销售您的产品，对吧？
Happy users stay with your product.
快乐的用户会继续使用你的产品。
Happy users are willing to type an email telling you when you're messing up.
当您遇到麻烦时，快乐的用户愿意输入电子邮件告诉您。
I mean, you want committed users.
我的意思是，你需要忠诚的用户。
They're just so important.
它们是如此重要。
Lenny: One final question around the actual OKR document.
Lenny：关于实际 OKR 文档的最后一个问题。
What do you find are the most one or two common mistakes people make when writing out the objective or the key result in deciding on what to go with?
您发现人们在写出目标或决定采取什么行动的关键结果时最常犯的一两个错误是什么？
Christina Wodtke: Objectives, people make them so fluffy that they don't have any meaning.
Christina Wodtke：目标，人们把它们弄得很空洞，以至于没有任何意义。
They really should be a proper goal.
它们确实应该是一个正确的目标。
We're doing this because we want to see this happen, it matters.
我们这样做是因为我们希望看到这种情况发生，这很重要。
We want to delight our customers.
我们希望让我们的客户满意。
Sometimes people make them too fluffy and sometimes they make them too boring.
有时人们把它们做得太蓬松，有时又把它们做得太无聊。
It's like, "Oh, we're going to ship this thing." That doesn't inspire anybody.
就像，“哦，我们要运送这个东西。”这不会激励任何人。
Your objectives should make you, when your alarm goes off and you wake up, you go, "Oh yeah, I'm changing the world today, or I'm doing something really cool." It shouldn't be like, snooze.
你的目标应该让你，当你的闹钟响起，你醒来时，你会说，“哦，是的，我今天正在改变世界，或者我正在做一些非常酷的事情。”不应该是这样，打瞌睡。
So, I think an objective should be motivating but not ridiculous.
所以，我认为目标应该是激励性的，而不是荒谬的。
Christina Wodtke: And then the key results, it's always going to be tasks.
Christina Wodtke：然后，关键结果总是任务。
I mean, people put tasks in there all the time, and it can be tricky.
我的意思是，人们总是把任务放在那里，这可能很棘手。
Sometimes it feels like a task, like you have to get past a product review, so it's going to have a binary.
有时感觉像是一项任务，就像你必须通过产品审查，所以它将有一个二进制文件。
They either said yes or no. But when you think about it, it is an outcome because it's really hard to get a product review group to say okay to anything.
他们要么说是，要么说不是。但当你仔细想想，这只是一个结果，因为让产品审查小组对任何事情说“好”真的很难。
So, making sure that you have real outcomes that let you move forward, I think that's the biggest mistake people make in OKRs.
因此，确保你有真正的成果让你前进，我认为这是人们在 OKR 中犯的最大错误。
Lenny: Yeah.
莱尼：是的。
I know you shared a few examples of just that came top-of-mind, but just is there any examples you can think of just, here's a really good example of an outcome?
我知道您分享了一些最重要的例子，但是您是否能想到一些例子，这是一个非常好的结果示例？
And I think your results are a lot easier, just move this metric 10% or hit-
我认为你的结果要容易得多，只需将该指标移动 10% 或点击-
Christina Wodtke: Let's try to keep it fairly concrete.
Christina Wodtke：让我们尽量保持具体。
You're a online magazine selling interior design ideas.
您是一本销售室内设计理念的在线杂志。
So, what are you trying to do?
那么，你想做什么？
You're trying to get strong leads out to your advertisers, and that's really important, and you're doing it because you believe that people deserve to have homes that are warm and wonderful.
你正在努力为你的广告商带来强有力的线索，这非常重要，你这样做是因为你相信人们应该拥有温暖而美好的家。
You have this mission, and you want to make money while you do it.
你有这个使命，你想在执行的同时赚钱。
So, your strategy is going to be about connecting human beings with the brands that will suit their lifestyle.
因此，您的策略是将人类与适合他们生活方式的品牌联系起来。
Okay, that's great.
好的，太好了。
And then we get to the nitty-gritty, well, what does that actually mean?
然后我们开始讨论本质，这到底意味着什么？
Are we going to really work on recommendations passionately?
我们真的会热情地致力于推荐工作吗？
Are we going to really create various markets and throw down advertising where we think these people are?
我们真的要创造各种市场并在我们认为这些人所在的地方投放广告吗？
That's when your strategy comes into play because you're making all these interesting choices.
这就是你的策略发挥作用的时候，因为你正在做出所有这些有趣的选择。
So, let's say we're going to double down on recommendations, which has a lot of presuppositions.
因此，假设我们要加倍努力提出建议，其中有很多假设。
Christina Wodtke: We have to get people to like, we have to understand their patterns of behavior, and that's when we can start to go to OKRs.
Christina Wodtke：我们必须让人们喜欢，我们必须了解他们的行为模式，然后我们就可以开始实行 OKR。
We can say, "Okay, so we have this online magazine, let's really work to get as many people being members rather than browsers as possible, so that we can start understanding what they like." And that's what Q1 could be really about, is starting to collect profiles of people's passions, and that sounds kind of exciting.
我们可以说，“好吧，我们有了这本在线杂志，让我们努力让尽可能多的人成为会员而不是浏览者，这样我们就可以开始了解他们喜欢什么。”这就是第一季度的真正目的，开始收集人们的热情概况，这听起来有点令人兴奋。
"Okay, great.
“好吧，太好了。
We're going to do that.
我们将这样做。
We're going to create a profile of people's passions.
我们将创建一个人们的热情概况。
Awesome." So, how would we know we were successful?
太棒了。”那么，我们怎么知道我们成功了呢？
"Oh, gosh.
“哦，天哪。
Well, we probably need a bunch of people to do it, but do we really need everybody?
好吧，我们可能需要一群人来做这件事，但我们真的需要每个人吗？
Maybe 30% of our audience flips over, and maybe that's right, maybe that's wrong." If you don't know, you just set it and you'll know by the end of Q3, whether you were stupid or not, it's fine, move on.
也许 30% 的观众会翻转，也许这是对的，也许是错的。”如果你不知道，你就设置它，到第三季度结束时你就会知道，无论你是否愚蠢，都没关系，继续前进。
Christina Wodtke: Okay, that's great.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：好的，那太好了。
Okay, how many things should people do what with?
好吧，人们应该用多少东西来做呢？
So, they bookmark, favorite, like...
所以，他们添加书签、收藏、喜欢……
How about like?
喜欢又怎么样？
Okay, so maybe they're going to like a certain number of products each week.
好吧，也许他们每周会喜欢一定数量的产品。
Let's go for weekly active users.
我们来看看每周的活跃用户。
So, they're going to like three things and present it.
所以，他们会喜欢三样东西并展示它。
Okay, so now we've got a couple of numbers that are pretty good.
好的，现在我们得到了一些相当不错的数字。
How do we know they're actually kind of liking it?
我们怎么知道他们真的喜欢它？
Maybe you decide to do some panels, and we're going to measure using a customer panel, bring them in, have them talk to us, and we're going to do that at the end of every two weeks to hear how it's working and understand more about it.
也许您决定做一些面板，我们将使用客户面板进行测量，让他们进来，让他们与我们交谈，我们将每两周结束时这样做，以了解其工作原理并了解更多信息。
Christina Wodtke: Okay, now we have some OKRs.
Christina Wodtke：好的，现在我们有了一些 OKR。
With key results, I always recommend spending 10 minutes brainstorming every single way you could possibly measure that outcome.
对于关键结果，我始终建议您花 10 分钟集思广益，对可能衡量该结果的每一种方法进行头脑风暴。
Because with brainstorms, you always think of all the obvious stuff first and then you have no ideas and you're just sitting there with your post notes going, "How long is 10 minutes anyway?" And then you start getting the weird ideas.
因为在头脑风暴中，你总是先想到所有显而易见的东西，然后你就没有任何想法，你只是坐在那里，在你的帖子上写着“10 分钟到底有多长？”然后你开始产生奇怪的想法。
And often out of those weird ideas are really good insights.
这些奇怪的想法往往会产生非常好的见解。
So, I recommend some pretty long brainstormings on the key results, but the objective is sort of a manifestation of the strategy at a one quarter level.
因此，我建议对关键结果进行一些相当长的头脑风暴，但目标是四分之一级别的战略体现。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
That was an awesome example.
这是一个很棒的例子。
You talked a bit earlier about how OKRs end up being...
您之前谈到 OKR 最终如何......
or sorry, key results end up being tasks for a lot of people.
或者抱歉，关键结果最终成为很多人的任务。
And this reminds me, we had the CPO of Figma on this podcast, and he told the story of how they moved away from OKRs at one point because they found themselves sitting in these meetings reviewing these large spreadsheets of hundreds of tasks-
这让我想起，我们在这个播客上邀请了 Figma 的 CPO，他讲述了他们如何一度放弃 OKR 的故事，因为他们发现自己坐在这些会议上审查这些包含数百项任务的大型电子表格 -
Lenny: ...
莱尼：……
that were basically just tasks for ICs that they're working on, and they kind of lost sight of why does any of this matter?
这基本上只是他们正在研究的 IC 的任务，他们有点忽视了为什么这很重要？
What are you even trying to do as a company?
作为一家公司，你到底想做什么？
So, they moved away from OKRs and then they came back to them actually later and fixing some of these issues.
因此，他们放弃了 OKR，然后又回到 OKR 并解决了其中一些问题。
So, maybe just as a question, what do you think is a sign that your OKR process is busted and that you need to spend some time improving and rethinking the way it works?
那么，也许只是作为一个问题，您认为什么迹象表明您的 OKR 流程已被破坏，并且您需要花一些时间改进和重新思考其工作方式？
Christina Wodtke: I think if those meetings are boring, that's a great example.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我认为如果这些会议很无聊，那是一个很好的例子。
One of the other benefits, which I didn't bring up about OKRs is that they scale really well.
我没有提到 OKR 的其他好处之一是它们的扩展性非常好。
One of the biggest problems founders struggle with is they don't scale very well, but if you can set a good OKR and get people to work on it, then you don't have to decide all those little IC tasks.
创始人面临的最大问题之一是他们无法很好地扩展，但如果你可以设定一个好的 OKR 并让人们致力于它，那么你就不必决定所有这些小 IC 任务。
You don't want to be drug down with that.
你不想因此而吸毒。
You got a job.
你找到工作了。
CEOs got to figure out what's coming up down the line, not fiddling over everybody's tasks.
首席执行官们必须弄清楚接下来会发生什么，而不是摆弄每个人的任务。
So, you set the OKRs and then you ask in the meeting, "What are the top three initiatives that you're doing towards them?" Or two or five, whatever.
因此，您设定 OKR，然后在会议中询问：“您针对 OKR 采取的最重要的三项举措是什么？”或者两个或五个，无论如何。
It's going to vary a little bit, but you want to keep it small.
它会略有不同，但您希望保持较小。
You only want to look at the most important stuff and just trust your people to take care of everything else.
您只想关注最重要的事情，并相信您的员工会处理其他所有事情。
Christina Wodtke: And then you can say, "Well, why do you think that's important?
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：然后你可以说，“那么，你为什么认为这很重要？
What do you think that's going to do?" Or, "I've been seeing that for weeks.
你觉得那会做什么？”或者，“我已经看到这种情况好几个星期了。
Are you going to try something else anytime soon?" It's all about those conversations about, is our current strategy, not just at the company level, but at each departmental level, are these strategies working?
你很快就会尝试其他事情吗？”这一切都与这些对话有关，我们当前的策略，不仅在公司层面，而且在每个部门层面，这些策略是否有效？
Are they moving us forward, towards our goals?
他们是否正在推动我们前进，实现我们的目标？
And so, looking through OKRs, I tell people, "When you first start, it might take a half hour, but after that it should just take 10 minutes." It's like, "I think that's stupid.
因此，在查看 OKR 时，我告诉人们，“刚开始时，可能需要半小时，但之后应该只需要 10 分钟。”就像是，“我认为这很愚蠢。
We should talk about that." Or, "No, it looks fine, looks essentially correct, let's move on.
我们应该谈谈这个。”或者，“不，看起来不错，看起来基本正确，让我们继续吧。
Anybody got anything?" And then you can get into whatever else you do, if it's a metrics review situation or if it's talking about a new deal, the rest of the agenda.
有人有什么东西吗？”然后你就可以开始做任何其他事情，无论是指标审查情况还是谈论新交易，以及议程的其余部分。
Christina Wodtke: But that constant checking in is like touching a lucky stone in your pocket.
Christina Wodtke：但是不断地查看就像触摸口袋里的幸运石一样。
It reminds you, "Oh yeah, there's this thing, there's this thing." And that rhythm...
它提醒你，“哦，是的，有这个东西，有这个东西。”还有那个节奏...
I'm a teacher, I'm really into learning theory.
我是一名老师，我非常喜欢学习理论。
So, there's a really big concept which is about repetition and retrieval practice.
所以，有一个非常大的概念，那就是重复和检索练习。
So, retrieval practice means that I put a fact in your brain and I keep asking you to go back and get it again.
因此，检索练习意味着我将一个事实放入你的大脑中，并且不断要求你返回并再次获取它。
Qualitative research is really useful for understanding the psychology of your users.
定性研究对于了解用户的心理非常有用。
Christina Wodtke: I'll say, "Well, how do we understand the psychology of users?" And you'd be like, "Oh, I heard this." Okay, I bring it up.
Christina Wodtke：我会说，“那么，我们如何理解用户的心理呢？”你会说，“哦，我听到了这个。”好吧，我提出来。
Well, it's the same thing in these weekly meetings, you're practicing retrieving what your OKRs are, and after a while they're just in that long-term memory and you don't have to struggle to think about them and you've got them.
嗯，在这些每周的会议中也是一样的，你正在练习检索你的 OKR 是什么，过了一段时间，它们就进入了长期记忆，你不必费力去思考它们，你就已经得到了它们。
And anytime you make a decision and you're in a big rush, you don't want to go through a bunch of paper to try to find what were our OKRs?
每当你做出决定并且很匆忙时，你不想翻阅一堆文件来试图找出我们的 OKR 是什么？
You just go, "Boo, this is what we should do.
你只要说：“嘘，这就是我们应该做的。
I know what we're trying to do and I know how to make a decision about that."
我知道我们想要做什么，也知道如何做出决定。”
Lenny: So, what I'm hearing is, a lot of this comes back to, if the meeting is not interesting and boring, change the way you run the meeting.
莱尼：所以，我听到的是，很多问题都会归结为，如果会议不有趣且无聊，请改变会议的召开方式。
Don't go through everything.
不要经历一切。
Maybe just pick the things that are most interesting and focus on that.
也许只是选择最有趣的事情并专注于它。
You don't have to review every single key result.
您不必审查每一个关键结果。
Christina Wodtke: Keep the meeting level at the right place.
Christina Wodtke：将会议级别保持在正确的位置。
I'm sorry, I wandered off in a different direction.
对不起，我走错方向了。
I get really nerdy around learning theory.
我对学习理论非常着迷。
Lenny: No, I love it.
莱尼：不，我喜欢。
I love learning how to learn.
我喜欢学习如何学习。
Feel free to share more as things come up.
当事情发生时，请随时分享更多内容。
Okay.
好的。
So, I don't know.
所以，我不知道。
I'm trying to think.
我正在努力思考。
Figma, I imagine they probably thought they could change this meeting, but I think maybe there's a more deep-rooted issue.
Figma，我想他们可能认为他们可以改变这次会议，但我认为也许有一个更根深蒂固的问题。
And this is kind of where my next question is going to go, is what do you think are just the root issues of OKRs going wrong?
这就是我的下一个问题，您认为 OKR 出错的根本问题是什么？
Lenny: Maybe that's a symptom of the meeting, they're really boring, but yeah.
莱尼：也许这就是会议的一个症状，他们真的很无聊，但是是的。
Christina Wodtke: Well, the symptom, it's really wrong.
Christina Wodtke：嗯，症状，这确实是错误的。
Yeah, it means that you're in the weeds, man.
是的，这意味着你陷入了困境，伙计。
You're fiddling with the little tiny bits.
你正在摆弄那些微小的东西。
You got to let go of those.
你必须放弃那些。
You have to trust your people.
你必须信任你的人民。
So, if we do the five why's, okay, why don't you trust your people?
那么，如果我们做了五个为什么，那么你为什么不相信你的员工呢？
Is it you or are you hiring horribly?
是你还是你招聘得太厉害了？
Okay, if you're hiring horribly, why are you hiring horribly?
好吧，如果你招聘得很糟糕，那你为什么要招聘得很糟糕呢？
Is it because you can't find the right people?
是因为找不到合适的人吗？
Is it because you're rushing through it?
是不是因为你太着急了？
You have to keep chasing it down.
你必须继续追下去。
OKRs are a great diagnostic tool because they tell you something's broken.
OKR 是一个很好的诊断工具，因为它们会告诉你有什么地方出了问题。
So, if your OKRs are going sideways, something's broken deeper.
因此，如果您的 OKR 出现偏差，则说明某些东西出现了更深的问题。
There's also the problem with psychological safety.
还有心理安全问题。
You need your teams to be able to say, "This isn't working.
你需要你的团队能够说：“这行不通。
We're doing something else." Instead of just saying, "This isn't working, tell us how to fix it."
我们正在做别的事情。”不要只是说“这不起作用，请告诉我们如何解决它”。
Christina Wodtke: People are coming to you and saying, "How do we fix this problem?" Something's broken in the company.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：人们来找你说：“我们如何解决这个问题？”公司出了点问题。
You're doing something wrong as a leader.
作为领导者，你做错了事。
You have to think about, if somebody doesn't know what to do and you're like, "Well, I have a strategy.
你必须考虑一下，如果有人不知道该怎么做，而你会说：“好吧，我有一个策略。
I told you what my strategy is." And they don't know how to make decisions, it means something's wrong with the strategy or you aren't being clear, because the conversation always has two people.
我已经告诉过你我的策略是什么了。”他们不知道如何做出决定，这意味着策略有问题或者你不清楚，因为谈话总是有两个人。
There's an old joke that I think about a lot, which is, if during the day you meet one asshole, he's probably an asshole.
有一个老笑话我经常想起，那就是，如果白天你遇到一个混蛋，他可能就是一个混蛋。
But if all day long you meet nobody but assholes, you might be the asshole.
但如果一整天你只遇到混蛋，那么你可能就是混蛋。
And I think that's very true.
我认为这是非常正确的。
If your entire company's confused, you might be the asshole.
如果你的整个公司都感到困惑，那么你可能就是混蛋。
You have to think about, how can I get more clear?
你要想想，怎样才能说得更清楚呢？
If people are constantly bringing you little things, it's not because they're scared, it's because you're scary.
如果人们不断地给你带来小东西，那不是因为他们害怕，而是因为你害怕。
Christina Wodtke: So, a lot of times your OKRs breaking are speaking to something else happening, and if your OKR process isn't working, then you have to step back and go, "Okay, how far deep do I have to go before I figure out what's wrong with my management team?" And it could be the CEO, but it could actually be some weird group dynamics, and you've got to focus on that.
Christina Wodtke：所以，很多时候你的 OKR 破坏是因为发生了其他事情，如果你的 OKR 流程不起作用，那么你必须退后一步，“好吧，在我弄清楚我的管理团队出了什么问题之前，我需要深入到什么程度？”它可能是首席执行官，但实际上可能是一些奇怪的团体动态，你必须关注这一点。
I really love Patrick Lencioni.
我真的很喜欢帕特里克·兰西奥尼。
Five Dysfunctions of a Team is his most famous book, and I would recommend that if you like the fable style book.
《团队的五种功能障碍》是他最著名的书，如果您喜欢寓言风格的书，我会推荐这本书。
But it's the same thing.
但这是同一件事。
You got to fix things at the top, you got to do your own work, and then everything else runs a little better.
你必须在高层解决问题，你必须做好自己的工作，然后其他事情就会好一点。
Lenny: This episode is brought to you by writer.
莱尼：这一集是编剧给你带来的。
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您听说过多少关于生成式人工智能的炒作？
So much.
就这么多。
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但是，如何将它从一个闪亮的玩具变成一个可以帮助您完成实际工作的实际业务工具呢？
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And unlike other AI applications, Writers' training happens securely on your data and your style and brand guidelines that you provide specific to your organization.
与其他人工智能应用程序不同，作家的培训安全地根据您为组织提供的数据以及风格和品牌指南进行。
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结果是您可以大规模地获得一致的品牌声音内容。
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Lenny: If you think back to what most often is the issue, in your experience, is it something at the top?
莱尼：如果你回想一下最常见的问题是什么，根据你的经验，是不是最重要的问题？
Is it a middle manager doing something wrong?
难道是中层管理人员做错了什么？
Is it just misunderstanding how to use OKRs?
难道只是误解了如何使用 OKR？
What do you think is usually the issue with OKRs not working well?
您认为 OKR 效果不佳通常会出现什么问题？
Christina Wodtke: I can repeat everything I said, but instead I'll just say speed.
Christina Wodtke：我可以重复我所说的一切，但我只会说速度。
People read, measure what matters.
人们阅读、衡量重要的事情。
They get their panties in a bunch, they get really excited.
她们把内裤堆成一堆，她们非常兴奋。
They're just going to do OKRs for everybody, but they didn't really read the whole thing.
他们只是要为每个人制定 OKR，但他们并没有真正阅读整件事。
You kind of skimmed it and you don't really understand how it works, and so you just implement it.
你粗略地浏览了一下，但并不真正理解它是如何工作的，所以你只是实现它。
Or you ask your head of HR to implement it, and it gets implemented and everybody's really happy and then they're really sad and then they spit it out.
或者你要求你的人力资源主管实施它，它得到实施，每个人都非常高兴，然后他们非常悲伤，然后他们把它吐出来。
And then you say, "Okay, OKRs don't work." I mean, that's what I see over and over again.
然后你说：“好吧，OKR 不起作用。”我的意思是，这就是我一次又一次看到的情况。
Nobody calls me for advice when they are thinking about OKRs.
没有人在考虑 OKR 时打电话给我寻求建议。
They call me for advice when they've done it in sales, every damn time.
当他们完成销售工作时，他们每次都会打电话给我寻求建议。
Christina Wodtke: I think it's...
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我认为这是......
What is it, the illusion of knowledge?
这是什么，知识的幻象？
If I asked you right now, how does a bicycle work, or how does a pen work?
如果我现在问你，自行车是如何工作的，或者钢笔是如何工作的？
You'd be like, "I know how that works." And if you tried to write it out, you couldn't.
你会说，“我知道这是怎么回事。”如果你想把它写出来，你就写不出来。
Well, I couldn't.
好吧，我不能。
How does a ballpoint pen work?
圆珠笔如何工作？
Okay, there's a spring and there's some ink.
好吧，有一个弹簧，还有一些墨水。
I'm not sure.
我不知道。
So, really thinking about, how would OKRs work throughout the company, is valuable.
因此，认真思考 OKR 如何在整个公司发挥作用是很有价值的。
So, because you don't have time as a leader, what you should do is just give my book to your best team and say, "We're thinking about OKRs.
所以，因为你没有时间担任领导者，你应该做的就是把我的书交给你最好的团队，然后说：“我们正在考虑 OKR。
Can you guys see if it works?" And then three months later, check in with them.
你们能看看有效吗？”然后三个月后，与他们联系。
"What did you figure out, guys?" Okay.
“你们发现了什么，伙计们？”好的。
Christina Wodtke: Because the best team always wants to be better.
Christina Wodtke：因为最好的团队总是想变得更好。
I love piloting with the best team, but they're still very imbued in your culture, so they'll figure out where OKRs in your culture don't fit.
我喜欢与最好的团队一起进行试点，但他们仍然深深地融入了您的文化，因此他们会找出 OKR 在您的文化中不适合的地方。
They'll figure out where it's helpful and then they can give it back to you and you have a template, and then you can take it to two more teams, and then you can take it to two more teams.
他们会找出它在哪里有用，然后他们可以将其返还给您，您就有了一个模板，然后您可以将其带到另外两个团队，然后您可以将其带到另外两个团队。
And maybe you adopt it with your management team, little bit by little bit.
也许你和你的管理团队一起一点一点地采用它。
That's how I tell people to start with OKRs.
这就是我告诉人们从 OKR 开始的方式。
Just figure out your best multidisciplinary team team and say, "You guys start and let us know."
只需找出你最好的多学科团队并说：“你们开始并让我们知道。”
Lenny: This might be a good time to talk a little bit more about your book for folks that are actually planning to roll out OKRs or trying to fix their OKRs.
Lenny：对于那些真正计划推出 OKR 或试图修复其 OKR 的人来说，这可能是更多地讨论您的书的好时机。
Can you just talk about what it is, how to find it, what it's called, anything else.
你能谈谈它是什么，如何找到它，它叫什么，或者其他什么吗？
Christina Wodtke: Yeah, it's called Radical Focus.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：是的，这就是所谓的“激进焦点”。
I could have called it Guide to OKRs, but I think what's really important is to learn how to focus on the most important things and make them happen.
我本可以将其称为 OKR 指南，但我认为真正重要的是学习如何专注于最重要的事情并让它们发生。
It is a business fable, as they call it, where I tell a story about two startup founders and their struggle to find focus and how OKRs help them.
正如他们所说，这是一个商业寓言，我在其中讲述了两个初创公司创始人的故事，他们努力寻找焦点，以及 OKR 如何帮助他们。
And then the second half, it's the second edition that's out now, it's gotten twice as big because I started working with big companies as well as startups and had to work through, what does it mean when you have a larger company and what struggles they follow?
然后是下半年，现在已经出版了第二版，它的规模扩大了一倍，因为我开始与大公司以及初创公司合作，并且必须解决，当你拥有一家更大的公司时，这意味着什么以及他们会遇到什么困难？
Christina Wodtke: And so, I think the first part's nice because it's fun to read stories, but I think what's really good about is what you notice, which is when I talk you through this company trying to figure out what their OKRs were, everything became a lot more clear.
Christina Wodtke：所以，我认为第一部分很好，因为阅读故事很有趣，但我认为真正好的地方是你注意到的，那就是当我向你介绍这家公司试图弄清楚他们的 OKR 是什么时，一切都变得更加清晰。
And I think that's one of the powers of stories, is seeing an example.
我认为这就是故事的力量之一，就是看到一个例子。
And then the rest of it is really like you could almost open it to any page and look at your problem, go, "Oh my problem's with strategy or my problem's with tasks versus outcomes." And you could flip around and figure out, what's the piece I need to solve?
然后剩下的部分就像你几乎可以打开它到任何页面并查看你的问题，“哦，我的问题是策略，或者我的问题是任务与结果。”你可以反过来想，我需要解决什么问题？
Lenny: And folks can find it on Amazon if they search for Radical Focus?
莱尼：如果人们搜索 Radical Focus，就可以在亚马逊上找到它？
Christina Wodtke: And it's been translated into eight languages, which is pretty cool.
Christina Wodtke：它已被翻译成八种语言，这非常酷。
Lenny: Wow.
莱尼：哇。
Which one's your most favorite language it's been translated into?
您最喜欢它被翻译成哪一种语言？
Christina Wodtke: Well, Chinese, because it sells like crazy because apparently some Chinese actress said she loved it and then it's been selling bigger there than anywhere else.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：嗯，中国的，因为它卖得很疯狂，因为显然一些中国女演员说她喜欢它，然后它在那里的销量比其他地方都大。
Lenny: So, Chinese actresses using OKRs, what is going on?
Lenny：那么，中国女演员使用 OKR 是怎么回事？
Christina Wodtke: Mind blown.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：令人震惊。
Once again, life is always more surprising than anything you can imagine.
再说一次，生活总是比你想象的更令人惊讶。
Lenny: I have more questions I want to ask you about OKRs, but you were talking about storytelling and fables and things like that.
Lenny：我还有更多关于 OKR 的问题想问你，但你谈论的是讲故事、寓言之类的事情。
So, you also wrote a book about, not that we're going to go through all your books, but you wrote a book about drawing and the power of drawing, and also you just believe in storytelling as a really powerful tool.
所以，你还写了一本书，不是说我们要浏览你所有的书，而是你写了一本关于绘画和绘画的力量的书，而且你相信讲故事是一种非常强大的工具。
So, I'd love to hear just your take on why storytelling is so powerful and why skilled drawing is so important for product leaders at the .
所以，我很想听听您对为什么讲故事如此强大以及为什么熟练的绘图对于产品领导者如此重要的看法。
Christina Wodtke: I think there are some things that are fundamentally human that are built into our genes.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我认为有些东西本质上是人类的，是内置于我们的基因中的。
Storytelling's one.
讲故事就是其中之一。
If all of human history was a clock, we started writing things down at 11:00 PM, so most of human history has been an oral tradition where we told each other stories to help pass on knowledge.
如果整个人类历史都是一个时钟，那么我们从晚上 11:00 开始写下东西，所以人类历史的大部分都是口头传统，我们互相讲故事来帮助传递知识。
And so, don't get anywhere near the big kitty with the great big teeth because you will die, or don't eat those red berries because my grandfather threw up for three days and then croaked.
所以，不要靠近那只长着大牙的大猫，因为你会死，或者不要吃那些红色浆果，因为我祖父呕吐了三天，然后发出嘶哑的声音。
But we tell them better than that.
但我们告诉他们的比这更好。
Longer stories tend to have more conflicts and they tend to be seen as having more information.
较长的故事往往有更多冲突，并且往往被视为拥有更多信息。
So, if you use storytelling, you're talking to the most ancient part of the human brain and you will get attention, you'll get comprehension and you'll get retention.
所以，如果你用讲故事的方式，你就是在与人类大脑最古老的部分交谈，你会得到关注，你会得到理解，你会得到保留。
The teacher's Holy Trinity, right?.
老师的圣三一吧？
So, I love stories.
所以，我喜欢故事。
They work well, they catch people's attention.
它们运作良好，引起了人们的注意。
Christina Wodtke: And one thing I read that kind of blew my mind was, they said that if you tell people a bunch of facts, they'll forget most of them, especially those that don't fit into their current mental model of how the world works.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我读到的一件事让我大吃一惊，他们说，如果你告诉人们一堆事实，他们会忘记其中的大部分，尤其是那些不符合他们当前的世界运作思维模式的事实。
But if you tell them a story that's full of facts, they will remember it.
但如果你给他们讲一个充满事实的故事，他们就会记住。
And if you look at TED, everybody loves a TED Talk.
如果你看看 TED，就会发现每个人都喜欢 TED 演讲。
They're mostly all just stories, and facts sprinkled inside those stories.
它们大多只是故事，而事实散布在这些故事中。
So, I think stories are very powerful.
所以，我认为故事非常有力量。
I think images are very powerful.
我认为图像非常有力量。
Words are very abstract.
言语非常抽象。
If I say the word chair, what pops into your brain?
如果我说“椅子”这个词，你的脑海中会浮现出什么？
Was it a big easy chair?
这是一把大安乐椅吗？
Was it a hard wooden chair?
这是一把硬木椅子吗？
We use these words as if everybody knows what we're talking about, but people don't.
我们使用这些词时就好像每个人都知道我们在说什么，但实际上人们并不知道。
Christina Wodtke: So, in my time in industry, because I was at, what, Yahoo, LinkedIn, Zynga, MySpace, stuff like that, I just found if I got on the whiteboard and drew really badly, and I think it's almost important to draw badly, make some marks, make some squares.
Christina Wodtke：所以，在我从事行业的时候，因为我在雅虎、LinkedIn、Zynga、MySpace 之类的地方，我发现如果我在白板上画得很糟糕，我认为画得很糟糕、做一些标记、做一些方块几乎很重要。
Somebody else will go, "No, no, no, it doesn't work that way.
其他人会说：“不，不，不，这样不行。
Give me this pen," and start doing it.
给我这支笔，”然后开始做。
And it gets you so fast to a shared vision of what's going on.
它可以让你很快对正在发生的事情达成共同的愿景。
I know designers spend all this time making wireframes and I'm like, that's the lamest use of time ever.
我知道设计师花了所有时间制作线框图，我想，这是有史以来最蹩脚的时间利用。
Just get some whiteboards, go into the room with your engineers and start making some marks together and that just works better.
只需拿一些白板，与工程师一起进入房间并开始一起做一些标记，这样效果会更好。
Christina Wodtke: And I found that for some reason in America, people seem to think that you have to be one of the chosen few and born a drawer.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我发现，出于某种原因，在美国，人们似乎认为你必须成为少数被选中的人之一，并且生来就是一个抽屉。
But it's like anything, it's like playing piano, you just got to practice a little bit.
但这就像任何事情一样，就像弹钢琴一样，你只需要练习一点即可。
So, the book mostly just has some really simple things you can draw, and then it tells you how to use them in business.
所以，这本书大多只是一些非常简单的东西，你可以画出来，然后它告诉你如何在商业中使用它们。
So, I wanted to make something that was even simpler than Back of the Napkin, which is an awesome book, but gets pretty intense, pretty quickly.
所以，我想做一些比《餐巾纸背面》更简单的书，这是一本很棒的书，但很快就会变得非常激烈。
Lenny: With the storytelling piece, I feel like most people are like, "Yes, I know storytelling is powerful." But they don't know how to do it.
莱尼：对于讲故事的作品，我觉得大多数人都会说，“是的，我知道讲故事是有力量的。”但他们不知道该怎么做。
Is there one tip you could share?
您有什么可以分享的技巧吗？
Just how to get a little bit better at storytelling or integrate storytelling into your work as a product leader or founder?
作为产品负责人或创始人，如何在讲故事方面做得更好一点或将讲故事融入到你的工作中？
Christina Wodtke: If you say one tip, you're really holding me down.
Christina Wodtke：如果你说一个秘诀，你就真的让我失望了。
I would say-
我会说——
Lenny: You could do two tips if that makes it easier.
莱尼：如果这样更容易的话，你可以做两个提示。
Christina Wodtke: ...
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：...
when you finish telling a story, if you're telling it to someone you can trust, say, "What's something I could have done to make the story better?" You're going to find out, do I just blather on forever, or do I not give enough details?
当你讲完一个故事后，如果你把它讲给你信任的人，你可以说：“我可以做些什么来让这个故事变得更好？”你会发现，我是一直在胡言乱语，还是我没有提供足够的细节？
I mean, if you're only going to do one thing, get feedback, is always the answer.
我的意思是，如果你只想做一件事，那么获得反馈总是答案。
The second tip would be structurally there's a beginning, middle, and end.
第二个技巧是结构上有开始、中间和结束。
Intrigue people with a hook, a mystery.
用钩子、神秘来激发人们的兴趣。
That's the beginning, right?
这就是开始，对吧？
A mystery, a secret, a surprise.
一个谜，一个秘密，一个惊喜。
The middle is, you can tell them a little bit about it.
中间是，你可以告诉他们一些关于它的事情。
That's where you get your message in.
这就是您收到消息的地方。
If you're trying to pitch something, sneak your product in, whatever.
如果你想推销一些东西，那就把你的产品偷偷地放进去，无论如何。
And the end is always going to be success and celebration because you're trying to get people excited about your story or remember this information.
最终的结果总是成功和庆祝，因为你试图让人们对你的故事感到兴奋或记住这些信息。
So, just a basic structure in your head really, can kind of make a big difference.
所以，只要你头脑中有一个基本结构，就能产生很大的不同。
Lenny: Yeah, I love that.
莱尼：是的，我喜欢这个。
That's such a actionable, straightforward tactic for getting better, just ask people, "How could this have been a better story?" Great idea.
这是一种可行的、直接的改善策略，只要问人们，“这怎么可能是一个更好的故事呢？”好主意。
Your second piece made me think about the Minto Pyramid.
你的第二件作品让我想起了明托金字塔。
Do you know much about, do you work with that at all?
你对此了解很多吗？你会使用它吗？
The Minto Pyramid principle?
明托金字塔原理？
Christina Wodtke: I had a Minto binge for a little while, but I moved onto other stuff.
Christina Wodtke：我有一段时间狂饮 Minto，但后来我转向了其他事情。
I do.
我愿意。
Christina Wodtke: Yes, but I can't recount it to you.
Christina Wodtke：是的，但我无法向您复述。
I do remember it.
我确实记得。
Lenny: I was just going to ask because it's kind of the reverse concept, which is, you start with the conclusion and then you kind of share how you got there.
莱尼：我只是想问，因为这是一种相反的概念，也就是说，你从结论开始，然后分享你是如何得出结论的。
Christina Wodtke: I think that's a good one.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我认为这是一件好事。
I mean, if you think about what's the job of a hook, a hook just gets you excited.
我的意思是，如果你想想钩子的作用是什么，钩子只会让你兴奋。
So, how do you get people excited?
那么，如何让人们兴奋呢？
You can start with a conclusion.
你可以从结论开始。
There's going to be success.
一定会成功的。
Oh, tell me more.
哦，告诉我更多。
I want to be successful.
我想成功。
It could be a mystery.
这可能是一个谜。
Ooh, what's happening there?
哦，那里发生了什么事？
I want to be part of that.
我想成为其中的一部分。
It could be a secret.
这可能是一个秘密。
Something happened and I'm not going to tell anybody else, but I'm going to tell you.
发生了一些事情，我不会告诉其他人，但我会告诉你。
There's so many ways to hook people in, but they're all doing the same job because you want people to actually listen to you and not pretend and nod.
吸引人们的方法有很多，但它们都在做同样的工作，因为你希望人们真正倾听你的声音，而不是假装点头。
So, I think you can do it backwards as well.
所以，我认为你也可以向后做。
But I bet even when Barbara Minto did it, she probably opened with a success and ended with a success, I would bet good money, to remind people that there's a happy ending and the story's worth following.
但我敢打赌，即使芭芭拉·明托做到了，她也可能以成功开头并以成功结束，我敢打赌，为了提醒人们有一个幸福的结局，这个故事值得追随。
Lenny: That's a really interesting perspective because to me, there were opposites of build tension and you reveal the answer.
莱尼：这是一个非常有趣的观点，因为对我来说，建立紧张是有对立面的，而你揭示了答案。
The Minto approach is start with the answer.
Minto 的方法是从答案开始。
Here's what we're going to do and here's why, and here's all the work I did to get there.
这就是我们要做的事情，这就是原因，这就是我为此所做的所有工作。
Your point is, that's also really interesting.
你的观点是，这也很有趣。
You're like, "Oh wow.
你会说，“哦，哇。
I don't know how you got to that."
我不知道你是怎么做到这一点的。”
Christina Wodtke: There's so many ways to tell a story.
Christina Wodtke：讲故事的方式有很多种。
Just don't bore your users.
只是不要让你的用户感到无聊。
Lenny: Great advice.
莱尼：很好的建议。
Okay, I want to come back to a couple more OKR questions.
好吧，我想回到几个 OKR 问题。
It could be less fun than the story maybe, but hopefully more useful.
它可能不如故事那么有趣，但希望更有用。
I want to just get your take on what is the cadence of a healthy OKR process?
我想听听您对健康 OKR 流程的节奏有何看法？
What are the ceremonies and meetings and emails that are involved?
涉及哪些仪式、会议和电子邮件？
I know you have this kind of weekly status email practice.
我知道您每周都有这样的状态电子邮件练习。
Do you recommend...
你推荐吗...
How do you describe the system of an OKR process?
您如何描述 OKR 流程的系统？
Christina Wodtke: Oh my gosh, I'm glad you asked because I think the cadence is probably the single most valuable piece of it.
Christina Wodtke：天哪，我很高兴你问这个问题，因为我认为节奏可能是其中最有价值的部分。
So, every Monday, because Monday is a great temporal landmark, look at your week, and you go, "Okay, what am I going to do to move the ball forward?" And it could be an email to your boss, it could be an email to your accountability group, could be an email out to your team, could be standing there like standup.
所以，每个星期一，因为星期一是一个伟大的时间里程碑，看看你的一周，然后你会想，“好吧，我要做什么来推动事情向前发展？”它可以是给你老板的电子邮件，可以是给你的问责小组的电子邮件，可以是给你的团队的电子邮件，可以像站立一样站在那里。
I mean, it's very easy.
我的意思是，这很容易。
OKR rituals were built on agile rituals.
OKR 仪式建立在敏捷仪式的基础上。
So, there's a lot of connections there, which is great.
所以，那里有很多联系，这很棒。
Christina Wodtke: So, you just, Mondays you commit and Fridays you celebrate.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：所以，你只需周一承诺并庆祝周五。
People do not value celebrations enough.
人们对庆祝活动的重视程度不够。
I've had CEOs who said, "Well, it was the middle of the quarter, so we didn't start OKRs, but we did start Friday celebrations.
我遇到过一些首席执行官，他们说：“嗯，那是季度中期，所以我们没有开始 OKR，但我们确实开始了周五的庆祝活动。
And oh my God, things are already changing.
天哪，事情已经开始改变了。
Things are already getting better." The simple act of getting together and saying, "What was the most awesome thing that happened to you this week?
情况已经好转了。”简单的行为就是聚在一起说：“这周发生在你身上最棒的事情是什么？
What's the most awesome thing that happened in marketing?
营销中发生过的最棒的事情是什么？
What's the most awesome thing that design did this week?" It makes people feel like they're part of something really special and it's super exciting.
本周设计界所做的最棒的事情是什么？”它让人们感觉自己是某个非常特别的事物的一部分，而且非常令人兴奋。
Christina Wodtke: So, you have these bookends and I think if you only do that, you're probably in good shape.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：所以，你有这些书挡，我想如果你只这样做，你的状态可能会很好。
I think status emails, I hated them so profoundly for most of my life.
我认为状态电子邮件，我一生中的大部分时间都非常讨厌它们。
I had this huge team at MySpace and my project manager would gather everybody's status emails and put them together into this giant status email that I had to send to my boss.
我在 MySpace 拥有一个庞大的团队，我的项目经理会收集每个人的状态电子邮件，并将它们整理成这封巨大的状态电子邮件，我必须将其发送给我的老板。
And I was so busy, I just sent it forward figuring it was fine.
我太忙了，所以我就把它转发出去了，觉得没问题。
And then I read it and there was this really bad thing in my status email that should not have happened.
然后我读了它，我的状态电子邮件中出现了这本不应该发生的非常糟糕的事情。
Christina Wodtke: I was like, "Fuck." And I waited to hear back from my boss, and nothing.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我当时想，“操。”我等着老板的回复，但什么也没有。
Apparently he wasn't reading them either.
显然他也没有读它们。
So, I was like, "What's the point of the stupid thing?" And then when I was at Zynga, we were using OKRs and they were really short.
所以，我想，“这个愚蠢的事情有什么意义呢？”当我在 Zynga 时，我们使用 OKR，但它们非常短。
They were like, "What's your confidence level on your key results?
他们就像是，“你对你的关键结果的信心程度是多少？
What did you do last week?
上周你做了什么？
And what are you doing next week?" And the last week, next week is great because it allows you to start noting down what stops you from getting shit done.
那你下周要做什么？”上周和下周很棒，因为它可以让你开始记下是什么阻止了你完成任务。
And that, I got to say, there's so much learning in that.
我不得不说，这里面有很多学问。
I tried to do this, but what?
我尝试这样做，但是什么呢？
Did I get sick?
我生病了吗？
Did somebody get mad at me?
有人生我的气了吗？
Did somebody not want to work with me?
有人不想和我一起工作吗？
Do we not have this critical database?
我们没有这个关键数据库吗？
The whole, I tried to do this last week and I failed, learning goes through the roof.
总的来说，我上周尝试这样做，但失败了，学习进度如日中天。
Christina Wodtke: And that rhythm of just having three P1s, you can't have more than three P1s.
Christina Wodtke：只有三个 P1 的节奏，你不能拥有超过三个 P1。
You can have as many P2s as you want and P3s if you really think you should, but you can scam it...
你可以拥有任意数量的 P2，如果你真的认为你应该拥有 P3，但你可以欺骗它......
scam it.
骗它。
You can skim it, right?
你可以略读一下，对吧？
Go through it really quickly.
快速浏览一遍。
And we would all send them to emails.
我们都会将它们发送到电子邮件中。
You could subscribe to email lists, which meant I could read the status emails of most of the company, and I would know what was going on and I could quickly see who should I go over and talk to, and who should I make a connection with?
你可以订阅电子邮件列表，这意味着我可以阅读公司大多数人的状态电子邮件，我会知道发生了什么，我可以很快看到我应该去找谁交谈，以及我应该与谁建立联系？
So, those emails were invaluable.
所以，这些电子邮件是无价的。
I think a lot of my clients are doing it in Slack now instead.
我想我的很多客户现在都在 Slack 中做这件事了。
And that works really well, if you have this place where you're putting your status in and people will quickly go, skim, skim, skim, skim.
如果你有一个地方可以放置你的身份，人们会很快地浏览、浏览、浏览、浏览，那么效果非常好。
"Oh, okay.
“哦，好吧。
I got to talk to that guy." So, it's hyper valuable.
我得和那个家伙谈谈。”所以，它非常有价值。
Lenny: If you assume others, the OKR doc, you're like, "Here's our outcomes for the quarter.
Lenny：如果你假设其他人，OKR 文档，你会说，“这是我们本季度的结果。
Here's our three key results." You make that plan once a quarter.
这是我们的三个关键结果。”您每季度制定一次该计划。
You have any recommendation how long to spend on planning your OKR?
您有什么建议可以花多长时间来规划您的 OKR？
Christina Wodtke: My goal is always as little as possible.
Christina Wodtke：我的目标总是尽可能小。
Time you're planning is not the time you're shipping, and the best is the enemy of the good.
你计划的时间并不是你发货的时间，最好的时间是好的敌人。
So, in an ideal world, you would grade your OKRs week at the end of the quarter, maybe second to the last week of the quarter, depending on it.
因此，在理想的情况下，您会在季度末对一周的 OKR 进行评分，可能是该季度最后一周的第二周，具体取决于情况。
If it takes you a whole week to set OKRs, which I hope it doesn't, but who knows.
如果你花了整整一周的时间来设置 OKR，我希望不会，但谁知道呢。
And then the very last week you set your OKRs for the next quarter and that's it.
然后在最后一周，您设定了下个季度的 OKR，仅此而已。
Christina Wodtke: Boom.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：繁荣。
If you can do it at in a...
如果你能在...
usually you can do it in four days total, unless you have a very hierarchal, huge deep bench.
通常你总共可以在四天内完成，除非你有一个非常等级森严的、巨大的深板凳。
And even then, I have something, I'm going to share this with you because I don't think many people talk about this.
即便如此，我还是有一些东西，我会与你们分享，因为我认为没有多少人谈论这个。
The approval process will kill you.
批准过程会杀了你。
I've seen it happen over and over again.
我已经一次又一次地看到这种情况发生。
I was working with one of my clients and we came up with this different kind of approval process that's working really well, is that basically instead of having your boss approve it, you write your OKRs, you get three...
我正在与我的一位客户合作，我们想出了这种不同类型的审批流程，效果非常好，基本上不是让你的老板批准它，而是你写下你的 OKR，你会得到三个......
I'm a big fan of the rule of three, because I'm a storyteller, but you could do less or more, I guess, teams that work with you enough to know what you're up to, to look them over and they just look them over, 24 hour turnaround.
我是三人规则的忠实粉丝，因为我是一个讲故事的人，但我想，你可以做得更少或更多，团队与你合作足以知道你在做什么，检查他们，他们只是检查他们，24小时周转。
Christina Wodtke: They say, "This looks right, but I don't think this is possible." They give you that feedback and you're done.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：他们说，“这看起来不错，但我认为这是不可能的。”他们给你反馈，你就完成了。
That's it.
就是这样。
That's the entire approval process, and it's so fast and it works so well.
这就是整个审批流程，而且速度非常快，而且效果非常好。
And that means you might have to say no to somebody if they're asking you to do more than...
这意味着如果某人要求你做的事情超出了...，你可能不得不拒绝。
if you had 10 teams asking you to look over their OKRs, you have to say no. You want to keep it down to a reasonable number, but if you do one a day, it could be done in a week.
如果有 10 个团队要求你检查他们的 OKR，你必须拒绝。你想把它控制在一个合理的数量，但如果你每天做一个，一周内就可以完成。
Lenny: I'm thinking about companies the size of Airbnb when I left, trying to do it that quickly.
Lenny：当我离开时，我正在考虑像 Airbnb 这样规模的公司，并试图尽快做到这一点。
And it's hard to imagine, partly because there's top level strategy that has to align with individual team roadmaps and dependencies, and platform teams and things like that.
这很难想象，部分原因是顶层战略必须与各个团队的路线图和依赖关系以及平台团队和类似的事情保持一致。
So, I imagine it's hard to do as the company's scales.
所以，我想，以公司的规模来说，这很难做到。
I like the drive to make it a week and be done.
我喜欢一周就能完成的动力。
Christina Wodtke: Well, I mean, who really has to approve it and what does it cost you if you get it wrong?
Christina Wodtke：嗯，我的意思是，谁真正需要批准它，如果你错了，你会付出什么代价？
And so, if tech looked at it, if somebody from strategy looked at it, if somebody from sales looked at it, whatever, the right people looked at it, you're probably fine.
因此，如果技术部门看了它，如果战略部门的人看了它，如果销售部门的人看了它，无论如何，合适的人看了它，你可能没问题。
And if you're not right, you'll figure it out over the quarter and do better next quarter.
如果你做得不对，你会在本季度找出答案，并在下个季度做得更好。
We have to let go or we will get mired down in all this crap.
我们必须放手，否则我们就会陷入这一切的泥潭。
Lenny: I love that.
莱尼：我喜欢这个。
I went off track, but just to kind of put a ribbon on the concept of OKRs, you have this document with your object, your outcomes, your key results, and then your recommendation is do a weekly email.
我偏离了轨道，但只是为了在 OKR 的概念上加一条丝带，你有这份包含你的目标、你的结果、你的关键结果的文档，然后你的建议是每周发送一封电子邮件。
And is the idea everyone on the team sends this weekly email or Slacks to the rest of the team?
团队中的每个人是否都会每周向团队其他成员发送这封电子邮件或 Slacks？
Christina Wodtke: To the rest of the company if you can.
Christina Wodtke：如果可以的话，也可以向公司的其他人传达。
Christina Wodtke: That's the thing, is Google, even as a huge company, everybody's OKRs and their weekly updates are on their intranet.
Christina Wodtke：事情就是这样，谷歌即使是一家大公司，每个人的 OKR 和每周更新都在他们的内网上。
You can look stuff up, so why not?
你可以查一下东西，为什么不呢？
Lenny: Got it.
莱尼：明白了。
And we'll link to a template that you have on your blog post.
我们将链接到您博客文章中的模板。
And also I think in the book, I imagine you have this template of what it is, but essentially it's your confidence level of hitting your OKR, what you did last week, what you're going to do next week.
而且我认为在书中，我想你有这个模板，但本质上是你实现 OKR 的信心水平，你上周做了什么，下周你要做什么。
Christina Wodtke: And then a few notes if you need to.
Christina Wodtke：如果需要的话，还有一些注释。
Lenny: Does this replace stand-ups in your experience?
莱尼：根据你的经验，这会取代单口喜剧吗？
Christina Wodtke: It could.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：可以。
I never try to tell engineering how to get their shit done, but if they felt like it was doing the same job, then they could combine them.
我从来没有试图告诉工程人员如何完成他们的工作，但如果他们觉得做的是同样的工作，那么他们可以将它们结合起来。
Lenny: Cool.
莱尼：酷。
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
And is there anything else?
还有其他的吗？
Is this the whole OKR process, in your experience?
根据您的经验，这是整个 OKR 流程吗？
Christina Wodtke: The only other thing I would bring up is thinking about the word grading.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我唯一要提到的另一件事是考虑“评分”这个词。
So, a lot of people think about trying to make something really numerical, like 0.08, I got 80% of the way there, but a lot of times they're qualitative.
所以，很多人都在考虑尝试做一些真正数值化的东西，比如 0.08，我做到了 80%，但很多时候它们都是定性的。
So, how do you think about that getting approved by the product committee?
那么，您如何看待产品委员会的批准？
So, it doesn't matter.
所以，没关系。
It really doesn't matter.
这真的没关系。
Don't get fussy.
别大惊小怪。
Don't try to make it really precise.
不要试图让它变得非常精确。
Just go ahead and say, "Ah, hand wave, hand wave, 80%." What matters is, why 80%?
直接说：“啊，挥手，挥手，80%。”重要的是，为什么是80%？
Really focus on the learning.
真正专注于学习。
So, we almost got there.
所以，我们就快到了。
Well, if we would've gotten there, if we got two more days, that's fine.
好吧，如果我们能到达那里，如果我们还有两天，那就太好了。
We basically got there.
我们基本上到了那里。
We knew what we were doing.
我们知道我们在做什么。
If we didn't, if we were really far away, what went wrong?
如果我们不这样做，如果我们真的很远，出了什么问题？
Christina Wodtke: It's all about the retrospectives.
Christina Wodtke：这都是关于回顾的。
Make sure your grading is secondary to retrospective, is the biggest thing I would say, because that's what's going to be valuable.
确保你的评分仅次于回顾，这是我想说的最重要的事情，因为这才是有价值的。
And you could spend so many hours trying to come up with some fake measurement system that never is quite accurate and just wastes everybody's time when you could just be faster.
你可能会花很多时间试图想出一些虚假的测量系统，但它永远不会非常准确，只会浪费每个人的时间，而你本来可以更快。
I'm just obsessed with speed.
我只是着迷于速度。
You may have noticed that.
您可能已经注意到了。
Lenny: I thought it was 70%, is that 80% is success?
Lenny：我以为是70%，那80%就是成功了吗？
Is that the rule of thumb for OKRs?
这是 OKR 的经验法则吗？
Christina Wodtke: It's about 70%.
Christina Wodtke：大约是 70%。
Some people do 80%, some people do 0.075, I don't know.
有些人做到80%，有些人做到0.075，我不知道。
My feeling is, a good goal is one that makes you feel somewhat uncomfortable but not doomed.
我的感觉是，一个好的目标是让你感到有些不舒服但又不至于注定失败的目标。
You're like, "Woo, that's kind of good, that's going to be tricky.
你会说，“哇，这很好，但这会很棘手。
Okay, let's go for it." That's about where I like to land with a key result.
好吧，我们就去吧。”这就是我想要获得关键结果的地方。
Lenny: I had a newsletter post with Lane Shackleton from Coda, and he made this point that OKRs were created by Google, which is the most incredible business model in history.
Lenny：我与 Coda 的 Lane Shackleton 发表了一篇时事通讯，他指出 OKR 是由 Google 创建的，这是历史上最令人难以置信的商业模式。
They just print money, and for them it's okay not to hit their goals, like 70% of goal is fine, it'll be fine, we're making so much money.
他们只是印钱，对他们来说，达不到目标也没关系，比如70%的目标就可以了，没关系，我们赚了这么多钱。
And so, his perspective for most companies, it doesn't make sense to set the goal to be like 70% of this goal you set is a success.
所以，从他的角度来看，对于大多数公司来说，将目标设定为 70% 的目标是成功的，这是没有意义的。
Do you have a perspective on that?
您对此有什么看法吗？
Christina Wodtke: I think you'll never know what you're capable of unless you try to do something that you're not sure you can do.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我认为你永远不会知道自己的能力，除非你尝试做一些你不确定自己能做的事情。
Lenny: I agree.
莱尼：我同意。
I find setting more ambitious goals than you think you can immediately achieve actually really pushes you to achieve them.
我发现设定比你认为可以立即实现的更雄心勃勃的目标实际上会真正推动你实现它们。
Christina Wodtke: And the literature agrees.
Christina Wodtke：文献也同意这一点。
There's a lot of literature that shows ambitious goals are actually quite motivating unless you feel you're doomed, at which point then they're demotivating.
有很多文献表明，雄心勃勃的目标实际上非常有动力，除非你觉得自己注定失败，此时它们就会让人失去动力。
Lenny: I've seen that too.
莱尼：我也看到过。
Okay, two more OKR questions.
好的，还有两个 OKR 问题。
One is, I noted this from before so I'm just going to come back to it.
一是，我之前就注意到了这一点，所以我会再回顾一下。
There's a balance with key results of, as you've talked about, being very precise and metrics-driven and focused.
正如您所谈到的，关键结果之间存在着平衡，即非常精确、指标驱动和专注。
And then there's, you talked a bit about sometimes it's okay for them to be a little fuzzy, like quality and delight, and those latter ones are harder to measure, it's hard to keep people accountable.
然后，你谈到有时它们有点模糊是可以的，比如质量和愉悦度，而后者更难以衡量，很难让人们承担责任。
Do you have any advice for just how to find that right balance of, this is what will keep you accountable, and this is how we drive the business forward, and this is how we know you're doing a good job, versus here's a general thing that we think is success and it's fine.
对于如何找到适当的平衡，您有什么建议吗？这将使您承担责任，这就是我们推动业务发展的方式，这就是我们如何知道您做得很好，而不是我们认为是成功的一般事物，这很好。
Do your best.
尽力而为。
Christina Wodtke: Yeah.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：是的。
One of the most common arguments I have with my friends is I think everything can be measured to a certain degree.
我和朋友们最常见的争论之一是我认为一切都可以在一定程度上进行衡量。
Not precisely necessarily, but you can get enough of a swag to be useful.
不一定，但你可以获得足够有用的赃物。
So, by trying to measure things, you'll start learning how to measure things.
因此，通过尝试测量事物，您将开始学习如何测量事物。
So, you maybe try NPS and you're like, "Wow, this is not actually accurate, or weird, or not." There's a lot of stuff we don't know until we try them.
所以，你可能会尝试 NPS，然后你会想，“哇，这实际上并不准确，或者很奇怪，或者不准确。”有很多东西我们在尝试之前是不知道的。
And of course, my background is in lean and agile and design and they're all iterative.
当然，我的背景是精益、敏捷和设计，而且它们都是迭代的。
They're all about, let's try something and then learn something and then do something.
它们都是关于，让我们尝试一些东西，然后学习一些东西，然后做一些事情。
Which is why I'm so fanatically iterative.
这就是为什么我如此狂热地迭代。
So, I think that when you got these fuzzy things, you just got to start trying out ways to measure it and trust the team to be able to figure out whether it's working or not.
所以，我认为，当你得到这些模糊的东西时，你必须开始尝试衡量它的方法，并相信团队能够弄清楚它是否有效。
Christina Wodtke: Revenue, it's easy.
Christina Wodtke：收入，这很容易。
This is what we're making now, this is what we could be making.
这就是我们现在正在做的，这就是我们可以做的。
Or you're not making anything now, so you can look up some numbers from public companies or whatnot.
或者你现在什么也没做，所以你可以从上市公司或其他公司查找一些数据。
That's easy.
这很容易。
DAU, it's easy.
DAU，这很容易。
Acquisition numbers, it's easy.
获取号码，很简单。
But when it comes to will people stay, do people actually like this?
但当谈到人们会留下来时，人们真的喜欢这样吗？
That's harder, but it's not impossible.
这更难，但并非不可能。
There's a lot of user researchers who have worked hard to figure out how to measure it.
有很多用户研究人员努力研究如何衡量它。
Christina Wodtke: So, you can either buy the obvious off-the-rack package like an NPS, or you can dig a little harder and figure out what would be meaningful to your company.
Christina Wodtke：因此，您可以购买明显的现成软件包（例如 NPS），也可以更加努力地挖掘并找出对您的公司有意义的内容。
And I think there's a desire not to do things that are hard and take a little bit longer, but that's where you're going to get the super value.
我认为人们希望不做那些困难且需要更长时间的事情，但这就是你将获得超级价值的地方。
That's how you become the next Netflix or Amazon or whatnot.
这就是你成为下一个 Netflix 或亚马逊之类的公司的方式。
So, you really got to say, "How will we know about our product and what are the approaches are out there and which one makes sense for us?"
所以，你真的必须说，“我们如何了解我们的产品，有哪些方法，哪一种对我们有意义？”
Lenny: Final OKR-related question.
Lenny：最后一个与 OKR 相关的问题。
Say someone's listening to this and they're like, "Wow, this is awesome.
假设有人听了这个，他们会说：“哇，这太棒了。
I want to do this at our company, we have a focus problem, we have alignment problems, we need to be more clear about what we're working on." Other than buying your book and reading it and sharing with everyone, what would you recommend would be the first few steps to work along that journey to rolling out an OKR process at the company?
我想在我们公司做到这一点，我们有焦点问题，我们有协调问题，我们需要更清楚我们正在做什么。”除了购买你的书、阅读并与大家分享之外，你建议在公司推行 OKR 流程的最初几个步骤是什么？
Christina Wodtke: I hate to say this, but there are a lot of consultants that have popped out of nowhere and it's kind of terrifying because so many of them really, really suck and they're just like, "Oh, OKR sounds like SMART goals or whatever, I'll just use that." Or it's hot, and so I'm going to figure it out by reading some articles.
Christina Wodtke：我不想这么说，但是有很多顾问突然冒出来，这有点可怕，因为他们中的很多人真的非常糟糕，他们就像，“哦，OKR 听起来像 SMART 目标或其他什么，我就用它。”或者天气很热，所以我会通过阅读一些文章来弄清楚。
And so, I would ask for references.
因此，我会要求提供参考资料。
I think that's a good one.
我认为这是一件好事。
Lenny: So, your advice is find someone to come in and help you figure out how to do this well and find the right person.
莱尼：所以，你的建议是找人进来帮助你弄清楚如何做好这件事并找到合适的人。
Christina Wodtke: Yeah, I guess I think that finding someone to coach you is really high value, but I also think it would be okay if you just read a book or read a bunch of blog posts and start experimenting.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：是的，我想我认为找到一个人来指导你确实很有价值，但我也认为如果你只是读一本书或读一堆博客文章并开始尝试就可以了。
It's not rocket science.
这不是火箭科学。
You just listened to this podcast, listen to it again.
您刚刚听过这个播客，请再听一遍。
Take lots of notes, Google around, see if you can learn a little more about some of the concepts that you didn't fully understand or you want to know more about.
做大量笔记，谷歌一下，看看你是否能多了解一些你没有完全理解或你想了解更多的概念。
And then just run a tiny pilot and say, "Okay, what does this mean for us?" You don't even have to call them OKRs.
然后运行一个小型试点并说：“好吧，这对我们意味着什么？”您甚至不必将它们称为 OKR。
You can just try, "We're going to do a outcome focus this quarter and let's see where it takes us." But just try it because that's where you learn stuff.
你可以尝试说，“我们将在本季度重点关注结果，让我们看看它会带我们走向何方。”但只要尝试一下，因为那是你学习东西的地方。
And try it at a small, safe level where you don't think it's going to hurt too many things.
在一个小的、安全的水平上尝试它，你认为它不会伤害太多的东西。
Lenny: And you said to start with a high performing team.
莱尼：你说要从一支高绩效的团队开始。
Christina Wodtke: Because they're smart, they're capable, and if anybody's going to figure out how to make it work, they will.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：因为他们很聪明，他们有能力，如果有人想弄清楚如何让它发挥作用，他们就会的。
If you try to fix a bad team with OKRs, you'll make everybody hate OKRs and make the bad team worse.
如果你试图用 OKR 来修复一支糟糕的团队，你会让每个人都讨厌 OKR，并使糟糕的团队变得更糟。
So, just don't do that.
所以，不要这样做。
It's not a medicine, but that high preferring team, they're going to be the ones who go, "Oh, well, okay, our stand-up's like this, so we should add this to standup.
这不是一种药物，而是那个高度偏好的团队，他们会说，“哦，好吧，好吧，我们的单口喜剧就是这样的，所以我们应该把这个添加到单口喜剧中。
And then instead of emails, let's just have a brag channel on our..." I've seen people do the coolest stuff with OKRs, totally changing what I recommend, doing wonderful things with it, just because they're smart and they messed with it till it worked.
然后，让我们在我们的……上建立一个吹牛频道，而不是电子邮件。”我见过人们用 OKR 做了最酷的事情，完全改变了我的建议，用它做了很棒的事情，只是因为他们很聪明，他们把它弄乱了，直到它起作用。
Lenny: Awesome.
莱尼：太棒了。
Final question in topic.
主题中的最后一个问题。
You teach product management at Stanford.
您在斯坦福大学教授产品管理。
What's maybe a surprising or contrarian opinion about how to learn to do product management, how to get into product management, how to do product management, from your experience teaching young PMs?
根据您教授年轻产品经理的经验，对于如何学习产品管理、如何进入产品管理、如何进行产品管理，您可能有什么令人惊讶或相反的观点？
Christina Wodtke: I taught it and a bunch of students who thought they were going to be product managers realized that they wanted to be interaction designers and not product managers at all.
Christina Wodtke：我教过它，一群认为自己会成为产品经理的学生意识到他们想成为交互设计师，而不是产品经理。
I think one of the things that might be off with a lot of the product management education and conferences is, it's good that they take a lot from UX and it is important to be people-centered, but the reality is the product manager serves the business.
我认为很多产品管理教育和会议可能会出现的问题之一是，他们从用户体验中学到了很多东西，这很好，以人为本很重要，但现实是产品经理是为业务服务的。
That's their role.
这就是他们的角色。
Teresa Torres talks about the product trio, right?
Teresa Torres 谈论了产品三重奏，对吗？
Trio.
三重奏。
Christina Wodtke: Trio.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：三重奏。
She's talking about business and user experience and technology.
她谈论的是业务、用户体验和技术。
So, if product's over here messing with the user experience or products over there, messing with engineering, who's taking care of the business?
那么，如果这里的产品扰乱了用户体验，或者那里的产品扰乱了工程，那么谁来负责业务呢？
And I think it's absolutely critical product managers, they say they're the mini CEO, but that just means they want to be in charge and nobody's in charge.
我认为这绝对是关键的产品经理，他们说他们是迷你首席执行官，但这只是意味着他们想要负责，而没有人负责。
It's all about working together as a team.
这一切都是为了作为一个团队一起工作。
So, they need to understand business models, they need to understand how to do a target market, and what is a target market, why is that target market the right one to go after, and how is it going to grow, and what are the trends that are going on that's going to change the business?
因此，他们需要了解商业模式，需要了解如何开展目标市场，什么是目标市场，为什么该目标市场是合适的目标市场，它将如何增长，以及正在发生的将改变业务的趋势是什么？
Christina Wodtke: Product managers need to serve the business and it's not a bad thing.
Christina Wodtke：产品经理需要为业务服务，这并不是一件坏事。
If you have a company, it needs to survive and all money is, is oxygen, it lets the company keep going, unless people are being greedy assholes, which definitely happens.
如果你有一家公司，它需要生存，所有的钱都是氧气，它让公司继续运转，除非人们是贪婪的混蛋，这肯定会发生。
But it's okay to care about the health and well-being of the company's ability to make money and feed itself.
但关心公司赚钱养活自己的能力的健康和福祉是可以的。
And don't do anything unethical, but really focus on these questions.
不要做任何不道德的事情，而是真正关注这些问题。
And if you don't know business models, if you can't talk about why you might want to do a subscription or if you want to just do one-off sales, if you don't understand why you know have all these in-app purchases in your mobile devices, go learn it.
如果你不了解商业模式，如果你无法谈论为什么你可能想要进行订阅，或者如果你只想进行一次性销售，如果你不明白为什么你知道你的移动设备上有所有这些应用内购买，那就去学习吧。
I'm really shocked at how many product managers are just smart people who care about users and just showed up and said, "Yes, I will be a product manager." So, no, business is a real thing.
我真的很震惊，有多少产品经理只是聪明人，关心用户，只是出现并说：“是的，我会成为一名产品经理。”所以，不，商业是真实存在的。
It has a long history of knowledge and understanding, and go do that.
它具有悠久的知识和理解历史，并且去做吧。
Lenny: What I'm hearing is, maybe product sense is overrated in your experience.
莱尼：我听到的是，也许在你的经历中，产品感被高估了。
Christina Wodtke: Ain't none of them yet old enough to have product sense.
Christina Wodtke：他们都还没有成熟到具备产品意识。
I mean, seriously.
我的意思是，认真的。
Product sense is intuition, intuition is compressed experience, compressed experience comes from having lots of experience.
产品感就是直觉，直觉就是压缩的经验，压缩的经验来自于丰富的经验。
And if you're young and you don't have a lot of experience, the smartest thing you could do is learn.
如果你还年轻，没有太多经验，那么你能做的最明智的事情就是学习。
You've got to learn what models work and why they work, and just intuition is overvalued and under-exists.
你必须了解哪些模型有效以及它们为何有效，而直觉被高估了，而直觉却被低估了。
Lenny: Imagine that's kind of freeing to a lot of people listening, where they're like, "Man, I just don't know if I have product sense.
莱尼：想象一下，这对很多听的人来说是一种自由，他们会说，“伙计，我只是不知道我是否有产品意识。
How do I learn product?" All this.
如何学习产品？”这一切。
Yeah, don't worry about it is what you're saying.
是的，不用担心，就是你说的那样。
Any other advice for just people thinking about getting into product or trying to get into product other...
对于那些考虑进入产品或试图进入其他产品的人有任何其他建议......
Many can't get to Stanford and learn product from someone like you.
许多人无法去斯坦福大学向像你这样的人学习产品。
What else would you suggest they do to try to help them get into a product management role?
您还建议他们做什么来帮助他们进入产品管理职位？
What other activities or areas they should spend time, in your experience?
根据您的经验，他们还应该花时间参加哪些其他活动或领域？
Christina Wodtke: I think I agree with my friend Ken Norton on this, in that you shouldn't probably start in product.
Christina Wodtke：我想我同意我的朋友 Ken Norton 的观点，因为你不应该从产品开始。
Go be an engineer or be a designer, work, get to know businesses.
成为一名工程师或设计师，工作，了解业务。
And I got into product from, well, I was a developer and then I was a designer, and both of those gave me a lot of knowledge.
我进入产品领域的时候，我是一名开发人员，然后是一名设计师，这两者都给了我很多知识。
But when I moved into product, it came out of my startup where I had to learn business, and I absolutely had to learn business or else I wasn't surviving.
但当我进入产品领域时，它来自于我的初创公司，我必须学习商业，而且我绝对必须学习商业，否则我就无法生存。
So, I would say work for a company that's small enough that you can poke into the corners and learn from other people, and learn and then do stuff.
所以，我想说的是，在一家足够小的公司工作，你可以深入研究并向其他人学习，学习然后做事。
Christina Wodtke: I don't know, it's funny because I'm at Stanford, which is all fancy with a degree and stuff and I'm like, "No, no, no, just read up, go hang out with people, get a job, figure it out." Because that's very much how I did it.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我不知道，这很有趣，因为我在斯坦福大学，那里对学位和其他东西都很感兴趣，我想，“不，不，不，只是读书，和人们一起出去玩，找份工作，弄清楚。”因为我就是这么做的。
And I think that if people want to get into product, I'd ask, "Why?
我认为如果人们想进入产品领域，我会问：“为什么？
Why do you want to be in product?
你为什么想从事产品工作？
Do you want to be in charge?" I learned that nobody's in charge.
你想负责吗？”我了解到没人负责。
No matter what you do, you have to use your influence, you have to use your people skills.
无论你做什么，你都必须运用你的影响力，你必须运用你的人际交往能力。
Christina Wodtke: Are you willing to work on your interpersonal dynamics?
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：你愿意在人际关系上努力吗？
Because if you can't fire someone, if you can't tell somebody their behavior is interfering with the ability to get things done, don't be a product manager.
因为如果你不能解雇某人，如果你不能告诉某人他们的行为正在干扰完成工作的能力，那么就不要成为产品经理。
If you can't solve the fight between two of your coworkers, don't be a product manager.
如果你不能解决两个同事之间的争吵，就不要当产品经理。
If you can't go out and talk to somebody in a Starbucks line and say, "Hey, we're working on this new thing, what do you think?" Don't be a product manager.
如果你不能出去和星巴克排队的人交谈并说：“嘿，我们正在研究这个新事物，你觉得怎么样？”不要当产品经理。
You got to have hustle.
你必须要忙碌。
You got to talk to people.
你必须与人交谈。
You got to always have your eye on the bottom line.
你必须时刻关注底线。
Christina Wodtke: Maybe you don't want to be a product manager.
Christina Wodtke：也许你不想成为产品经理。
Maybe it's much more fun to leave work every day at 6:00 and be a designer and think about how all the systems work and how and where the error message is going to come in, and is blue the right color, all the combinations of that, that's fun.
也许每天 6:00 下班，成为一名设计师，思考所有系统如何工作，错误消息如何以及在哪里出现，蓝色是正确的颜色，所有这些的组合，这很有趣。
Or you really want to be an engineer and solve puzzles all day.
或者你真的想成为一名工程师并整天解决难题。
Product manager is probably the worst job unless you love talking to everybody and connecting them and stepping into the mess.
产品经理可能是最糟糕的工作，除非你喜欢与每个人交谈并联系他们并陷入困境。
Lenny: I definitely agree.
莱尼：我绝对同意。
There's not enough talk about how painful and hard the PM role is and how thankless it often is.
关于 PM 的角色是多么痛苦和艰难，以及它常常是多么吃力不讨好，还没有足够的讨论。
Christina Wodtke: And I love it, but I love everything.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我喜欢它，但我喜欢一切。
I fell in love with the web and I haven't stopped, even though it's now mostly on phones and stuff.
我爱上了网络，而且一直没有停止，尽管现在主要是在手机和其他东西上。
It's an exciting space.
这是一个令人兴奋的空间。
But yeah, you got to step up and do the hard stuff.
但是，是的，你必须挺身而出，做困难的事情。
Lenny: That is an awesome way to end it.
莱尼：这是一个很棒的结束方式。
And with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round where I just have six quick questions.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合，我只有六个简短的问题。
I don't know if you know they are, so let's just go through them and see how it goes.
我不知道你是否知道它们，所以让我们浏览一下它们，看看情况如何。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny: What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?
莱尼：您最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Christina Wodtke: The Fearless Organization.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：无畏组织。
I think that book on psychological safety is the bomb.
我认为那本关于心理安全的书就是炸弹。
It's so, so, so good.
真是太好了，太好了。
For fiction, I loved The Overstory.
对于小说，我喜欢《The Overstory》。
It's about trees, and it's mind-blowing and so good.
这是关于树木的，它令人兴奋，而且非常好。
I'm going to leave it at that.
我就这样吧。
Less is better.
越少越好。
Lenny: I tried reading The Overstory and it's very long, but beautiful.
莱尼：我尝试读过《上层故事》，它很长，但是很美。
Christina Wodtke: It's a lot like Cloud Atlas.
Christina Wodtke：这很像 Cloud Atlas。
If you liked Cloud Atlas, you'll like The Overstory.
如果您喜欢《云图》，您也会喜欢《The Overstory》。
Christina Wodtke: No, a terrible movie.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：不，一部糟糕的电影。
Only read the book.
只看了书。
Lenny: I agree.
莱尼：我同意。
Speaking of movies, what's a favorite recent movie or TV show?
说到电影，最近最喜欢的电影或电视节目是什么？
Christina Wodtke: We just saw Wakanda Forever and it's a very different movie than Black Panther, and my kid and I spent quite a bit of time talking about it and what it meant and it was a lot deeper than I expected.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我们刚刚看了《永远的瓦坎达》，这是一部与《黑豹》非常不同的电影，我和我的孩子花了很多时间讨论它及其含义，它比我预想的要深刻得多。
And I'm very passionate about the Mayan people because I live in Belize part of the year, and I don't know, the Mayans are just the OGs of everything, invented zero, writing.
我对玛雅人非常热情，因为我一年中有一部分时间住在伯利兹，我不知道，玛雅人只是一切的起源，发明了零，写作。
They're just so amazing.
他们真是太棒了。
Lenny: Love it.
莱尼：喜欢。
Next question, favorite interview question that you like to ask when you're interviewing people.
下一个问题是您在面试别人时最喜欢问的面试问题。
Christina Wodtke: What questions should I have asked you?
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我应该问你什么问题？
I've been using that one forever, whether I am interviewing somebody or being interviewed, because the person is an expert in themselves.
无论是采访某人还是接受采访，我一直都在使用这个工具，因为这个人本身就是专家。
And if you say, "What question should I have asked you?" A lot of times they'll be like, "Oof." They'll be knocked off-base and then they'll give you a really honest answer.
如果你说：“我应该问你什么问题？”很多时候他们会说“噢”。他们会被击倒，然后他们会给你一个非常诚实的答案。
Lenny: What are five SaaS products or tools that you just love and use constantly?
Lenny：您喜欢并经常使用的五种 SaaS 产品或工具是什么？
Christina Wodtke: Oh, I hate all technology.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：哦，我讨厌所有技术。
That's what the problem is, if you've been a product manager and a designer, all you can see is the flaws.
这就是问题所在，如果你做过产品经理和设计师，你看到的都是缺陷。
But I would say I like Zoom better than you might think.
但我想说我比你想象的更喜欢 Zoom。
It's terrible, but it's better than everything else.
这很可怕，但它比其他一切都好。
Slack, when I saw it, I was like, "This is not going to get rid of email.
Slack，当我看到它时，我想，“这不会消除电子邮件。
This is just going to be another channel of nonsense." And that showed up.
这只是又一个胡言乱语的渠道。”这出现了。
But I do use it.
但我确实用它。
God knows, I use it.
天知道，我用它。
Christina Wodtke: The Google Suites, I got to say the Google Suite is pretty amazing.
Christina Wodtke：Google 套件，我不得不说 Google 套件非常棒。
Most people think that the students who go to Stanford are all rich, but 70% of them have huge amounts of financial aid.
大多数人认为去斯坦福大学的学生都是有钱人，但其中70%的人拥有巨额助学金。
And so, I'm always looking for things that are free and won't cost too much for these students.
因此，我一直在寻找免费的东西，并且对这些学生来说不会花费太多。
So many of them are first generation, the first student who's gone in their family here.
他们中的许多人都是第一代，是他们家族中第一个离开这里的学生。
So, having the Google Suite and being able to have free slides, free docs, everything interconnected, Drive is sort of a gift.
因此，拥有 Google Suite 并能够提供免费幻灯片、免费文档以及所有互连的内容，Drive 就是一份礼物。
So, I've got to say I love those.
所以，我不得不说我喜欢这些。
Lenny: Cool.
莱尼：酷。
I didn't expect the question to go in that direction, but I love it.
我没想到问题会朝那个方向发展，但我喜欢它。
Two more questions.
还有两个问题。
What's something relatively minor that you've seen a company you've worked with change in their product development process that's had a tremendous impact on their ability to execute and ship crates?
您曾见过一家与您合作过的公司在其产品开发流程中发生了哪些相对较小的变化，但对他们的执行和运输能力产生了巨大影响？
Christina Wodtke: I will never forget when people stopped sitting with their disciplines and started sitting with their teams.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我永远不会忘记当人们不再与他们的纪律坐在一起并开始与他们的团队坐在一起时。
I think that we in tech want everything to be tech and be remote and everything, blah, blah, blah.
我认为我们科技界希望一切都是科技化的，都是远程的，等等，等等。
And there are definitely jobs that are wonderful remote, but if you're trying to innovate, there's nothing like getting the product trio to sit together, and preferably with walls.
肯定有一些工作是很棒的远程工作，但如果你想创新，没有什么比让产品三人组坐在一起更好的了，而且最好是靠墙。
Walls are really underrated.
墙确实被低估了。
If you can just give them a war room where they can put stuff on the wall, or I hate to say it, cubicles, I'd rather see offices, but if you can give people walls, it becomes part of your memory.
如果你能给他们一个作战室，他们可以把东西放在墙上，或者我讨厌说它，小隔间，我宁愿看到办公室，但如果你能给人们墙，它就会成为你记忆的一部分。
And then you're not using your short-term memory to remember stuff.
然后你就不会使用你的短期记忆来记住东西。
You're using it to think, and so the war room becomes a living memory so you can make connections.
你用它来思考，所以作战室变成了活生生的记忆，这样你就可以建立联系。
I mean, it's one of the hardest things I have to teach my students too, is that some things are just better done analog and that's okay.
我的意思是，这也是我必须教给学生的最难的事情之一，那就是有些事情最好通过模拟来完成，那没关系。
Lenny: Reminds me of a story I just heard from a friend where there was a team sitting next to a data science team and they were one table apart.
Lenny：让我想起我刚刚从一位朋友那里听到的一个故事，其中有一个团队坐在一个数据科学团队旁边，他们相隔一张桌子。
They're right next to each other.
他们就在彼此旁边。
And the data team just had a lot of concerns with what that team was building.
数据团队对该团队正在构建的内容非常担忧。
They didn't believe in what they're doing and they're just like, "Why are we wasting these resources on this thing?" And the head of data science put one of the data people on the team and had them sit just one table over with the team and everything changed.
他们不相信自己正在做的事情，他们只是想，“为什么我们要在这件事上浪费这些资源？”数据科学主管在团队中安排了一名数据人员，让他们与团队只坐在一张桌子旁，一切都发生了变化。
They're just like, "Okay, let's do this.
他们就像是，“好吧，让我们这样做吧。
This is great.
这太棒了。
We're going to build some awesome products."
我们将打造一些很棒的产品。”
Christina Wodtke: We are human.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我们是人类。
We are social.
我们是社交的。
Yeah, and I think moving people around every year or so, everybody hates it.
是的，我认为每年左右都会调动人员，每个人都讨厌它。
Nobody wants to change desks, but do it to them anyway.
没有人愿意更换办公桌，但无论如何都要这样做。
It always makes things better.
它总是让事情变得更好。
Lenny: Final question.
莱尼：最后一个问题。
What's a company that you think has a really strong and effective product culture?
您认为哪家公司拥有真正强大且有效的产品文化？
If you can name one, if not, that's okay too.
如果你能说出一个名字，如果不能，也没关系。
Christina Wodtke: Well, I think of all my clients, the best cultures all seem to be very small companies working in strange little corners of the world.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：嗯，我想到我所有的客户，最好的文化似乎都是在世界陌生的小角落工作的小公司。
They're not the big, sexy guys.
他们不是又大又性感的家伙。
Everybody's there because they want to make dog food or they want to make this kind of financial software, and they're amazing.
每个人都在那里，因为他们想要制作狗粮或者他们想要制作这种财务软件，他们非常棒。
I think we treat scale like it's a virtue when it's merely a tactic, and it might be a bad tactic as well.
我认为我们将规模视为一种美德，但实际上它只是一种策略，而且它也可能是一种糟糕的策略。
So yeah, I think there's something really sweet around 250 people working on something that everybody agrees is important.
所以，是的，我认为有 250 个人在做一些大家都认为很重要的事情，这是一件非常甜蜜的事情。
Lenny: Christina, I honor you as emperor for life of OKRs.
莱尼：克里斯蒂娜，我将您视为 OKR 终身皇帝。
Lenny: You've achieved it.
莱尼：你已经做到了。
I'm very proud of you.
我为你感到非常骄傲。
I think we've made a big dent in how people perceive OKRs and will utilize OKRs.
我认为我们已经极大地改变了人们对 OKR 的看法以及如何利用 OKR。
Lenny: Thank you so much for being here.
莱尼：非常感谢你来到这里。
Two final questions.
最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more, reach out?
如果人们想了解更多信息并联系您，可以在哪里找到您？
And how can listeners be useful to you?
听众如何对你有用？
Christina Wodtke: If they want to learn more, I've been blogging at eleganthack.com, like a hack writer since 2000.
Christina Wodtke：如果他们想了解更多信息，我从 2000 年开始就像一名黑客作家一样在 beautifulhack.com 上写博客。
It's where I've dumped my thoughts for a long time, so it's always a good place if you want to go spelunking about anything.
这是我长期以来倾倒思绪的地方，所以如果你想探索任何事情，它总是一个好地方。
If you want to attempt to hire me, cwodtke.com is not a bad place to go.
如果您想尝试雇用我，cwodtke.com 是一个不错的选择。
I say attempt because I teach, and so I don't have a lot of time.
我说尝试是因为我教书，所以我没有很多时间。
But you know what users could do?
但你知道用户可以做什么吗？
Users could slow down.
用户可能会放慢速度。
I just wish everybody would take a deep breath and think about, "Okay, we're going to adopt this thing.
我只是希望每个人都能深吸一口气并思考：“好吧，我们将采用这个东西。
Let's read up on it.
让我们仔细阅读一下。
Let's think about it.
我们想一想。
Oh, we're going to build this new product?
哦，我们要开发这个新产品？
Let's do a literature review, let's do a competitive analysis.
让我们进行文献综述，进行竞争分析。
Let's see what's been done.
让我们看看做了什么。
Let's learn from the past."
让我们从过去吸取教训。”
Christina Wodtke: I think if you could slow down, you'll end up going a lot faster.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：我认为如果你能放慢速度，你最终会走得更快。
So, I would encourage people, if you're in a panic and you're in a tizzy, and I know the economics bad and the world's on fire, but just take some deep breaths before you do anything and just ask yourself, "What's a good way to do it?
所以，我会鼓励人们，如果你感到恐慌和头晕，我知道经济形势不好，世界着火，但在你做任何事情之前先深呼吸，问问自己，“有什么好方法吗？
What's a good way for me to move forward?" I think I would like to encourage that.
有什么好的方法可以让我继续前进吗？”我想我想鼓励这一点。
Lenny: A beautiful way to end it, but I also want to make sure you plug your books.
莱尼：这是一个很好的结束方式，但我也想确保你把书塞上。
Just say the titles of your books and where people can find them, and then we'll .
只需说出您的书名以及人们可以在哪里找到它们，然后我们就会。
Christina Wodtke: Radical Focus.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：激进的焦点。
Get the second edition.
获取第二版。
The Team That Managed Itself.
自我管理的团队。
And Pencil Me In.
并把我记下来。
Those are my three books that are out there right now.
这些是我现在已经出版的三本书。
You can get them pretty much anywhere I do believe, but definitely, I mean Amazon.
我相信你几乎可以在任何地方买到它们，但毫无疑问，我指的是亚马逊。
Amazon rules us all, so they're definitely there.
亚马逊统治着我们所有人，所以他们肯定在那里。
Lenny: Amazing.
莱尼：太棒了。
Christina, again, thank you for being here.
克里斯蒂娜，再次感谢您来到这里。
We'll all go slow down right now.
我们现在都会放慢脚步。
Christina Wodtke: Thank you so much for having me here, Lenny, and sharing your audience with me.
克里斯蒂娜·沃特克：莱尼，非常感谢您邀请我来到这里，并与我分享您的听众。
It's been an honor.
这是一种荣幸。
Lenny: Bye everyone.
莱尼：大家再见。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
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Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
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您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。