The essence of product management | Christian Idiodi (SVPG)

Christian Idiodi: I try to explain to people that the real essence of this job is that you wake up on behalf of someone else to solve a problem for them, and you have to do it well enough that they give you something back in return.

Christian Idiodi：我试图向人们解释，这份工作的真正本质是，你代表别人醒来，为他们解决问题，而且你必须做得足够好，他们才会给你一些回报。

That's kind of the real essence of it, and that's, I always call it a certificate of appreciation.

这就是它的真正本质，我总是称其为感谢状。

And it could be in the form of revenue, engagement, loyalty, reference, all of those things.

它可以是收入、参与度、忠诚度、推荐度等所有形式。

And that's the real essence of this job.

这就是这项工作的真正本质。

If it's not fun, you're probably not doing it right.

如果它不有趣，那么你可能没有做对。

If it's not had, you're probably also not doing it right.

如果没有，您可能也没有做得正确。

Lenny: Today, my guest is Christian Idiodi.

莱尼：今天，我的客人是克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪。

Christian is a partner at Silicon Valley Product Group, alongside Marty Cagan, who when he introduced us, called Christian the most interesting man in the world.

克里斯蒂安（Christian）是硅谷产品集团（Silicon Valley Product Group）的合伙人，与马蒂·凯根（Marty Cagan）一起，他在介绍我们时称克里斯蒂安是世界上最有趣的人。

After meeting him, I tend to agree.

见到他后，我倾向于同意。

After a long career in product, Christian now spends his time working closely with companies, big and small, implementing and improving their discipline of product management.

在经历了长期的产品职业生涯后，克里斯蒂安现在将时间花在与大大小小的公司密切合作，实施和改进他们的产品管理纪律。

In our conversation, we discuss why the product management field is so often disliked and what you can do to avoid becoming a product manager people don't want on their team.

在我们的对话中，我们讨论了为什么产品管理领域经常不受欢迎，以及如何避免成为人们不希望加入团队的产品经理。

We spend a lot of time on coaching, how to get better at coaching your reports, how to get better coaching from your manager, and some really clever tactics for building trust with leaders within your company.

我们花了很多时间在指导上，如何更好地指导你的报告，如何从你的经理那里得到更好的指导，以及一些真正聪明的策略来与公司内的领导者建立信任。

Also, Christian shares his one favorite go-to method, out of all of the discovery methods out there, for figuring out what to build.

此外，克里斯蒂安分享了他在所有发现方法中最喜欢的一种方法，用于弄清楚要构建什么。

Lenny: Also, we spend some time on the great work that he's doing at Silicon Valley, Product Group.

莱尼：此外，我们还花了一些时间研究他在硅谷产品组所做的出色工作。

He's been doing a lot of great work on the product management field in Africa to help product builders and founders build great companies.

他在非洲的产品管理领域做了很多出色的工作，帮助产品构建者和创始人建立伟大的公司。

That and so much more Christian is awesome.

基督教的这一点以及更多的东西都很棒。

With that, I bring you Christian Idiodi, after a short word from our sponsors.

在我们的赞助商简短发言之后，我为您带来了克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪。

Lenny: You fell in love with building products for a reason.

Lenny：您爱上建筑产品是有原因的。

But sometimes the day-to-day reality is a little different than you imagined.

但有时候，现实与你想象的有些不同。

Instead of dreaming up big ideas, talking to customers and crafting a strategy, you're drowning and spreadsheets and roadmap updates, and you're spending your days basically putting out fires.

你没有梦想出伟大的想法，没有与客户交谈并制定战略，而是被淹没在电子表格和路线图更新中，你的日子基本上都花在救火上。

A better way is possible.

更好的方法是可能的。

Introducing Jira Product Discovery, the new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams by Atlassian.

隆重推出 Jira Product Discovery，这是 Atlassian 为产品团队构建的新优先级划分和路线图工具。

With Jira Product Discovery, you can gather all your product ideas and insights in one place and prioritize confidently, finally replacing those endless spreadsheets.

借助 Jira Product Discovery，您可以将所有产品创意和见解收集到一处，并自信地确定优先顺序，最终取代那些无休无止的电子表格。

Create and share custom product roadmaps with any stakeholder in seconds.

在几秒钟内创建并与任何利益相关者共享自定义产品路线图。

And it's all built on Jira, where your engineering team's already working.

这一切都建立在 Jira 上，您的工程团队已经在 J​​ira 上工作。

So true collaboration is finally possible.

因此，真正的合作终于成为可能。

Great products are built by great teams, not just engineers.

伟大的产品是由伟大的团队打造的，而不仅仅是工程师。

Lenny: Sales, support, leadership, even Greg from finance, anyone that you want can contribute ideas, feedback, and insights in Jira Product Discovery for free.

Lenny：销售、支持、领导，甚至来自财务部门的 Greg，任何您想要的人都可以免费在 Jira Product Discovery 中贡献想法、反馈和见解。

No catch.

没有捕获。

And it's only $10 a month for you.

而且每月只需 10 美元。

Say goodbye to your spreadsheets and the never-ending alignment efforts.

告别电子表格和无休止的对齐工作。

The old way of doing product management is over.

旧的产品管理方式已经结束。

Rediscover what's possible with Jira Product Discovery.

重新发现 Jira Product Discovery 的可能性。

Try for free at Atlassian.com/lenny.

请访问 Atlassian.com/lenny 免费试用。

That's Atlassian.com/Lenny.

这是 Atlassian.com/Lenny。

Lenny: This episode is brought to you by Vanta, helping you streamline your security compliance to accelerate your growth.

Lenny：本集由 Vanta 为您带来，可帮助您简化安全合规性以加速您的成长。

Thousands of fast-growing companies like Gusto, Calm, Quora and Modern Treasury trust Vanta to help build, scale, manage, and demonstrate their security and compliance programs and get ready for audits in weeks, not months.

Gusto、Calm、Quora 和 Modern Treasury 等数千家快速发展的公司信任 Vanta 帮助构建、扩展、管理和演示其安全与合规计划，并在数周（而不是数月）内为审计做好准备。

By offering the most in-demand security and privacy frameworks such as SOC 2, ISO 27001, GDPR, HIPAA and many more, Vanta helps companies obtain the reports they need to accelerate growth, build efficient compliance processes, mitigate risks to their businesses, and build trust with external stakeholders.

通过提供最受欢迎的安全和隐私框架（例如 SOC 2、ISO 27001、GDPR、HIPAA 等），Vanta 帮助公司获取加速增长、构建高效合规流程、降低业务风险以及与外部利益相关者建立信任所需的报告。

Over 5,000 fast-growing companies use Vanta to automate up to 90% of the work involved with SOC 2 and these other frameworks.

超过 5,000 家快速发展的公司使用 Vanta 自动化 SOC 2 和其他框架所涉及的高达 90% 的工作。

For a limited time, Lenny's podcast listeners get $1,000 off Vanta.

在有限的时间内，Lenny 的播客听众可享受 Vanta 1,000 美元优惠。

Go to Vanta.com/Lenny, that's Vanta.com/Lenny, to learn more and to claim your discounts.

请访问 Vanta.com/Lenny，即 Vanta.com/Lenny，了解更多信息并申请折扣。

Get started today.

今天就开始吧。

Christian, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

克里斯蒂安，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。

Christian Idiodi: Thank you for having me, Lenny.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

It's a joy to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Lenny: It's a joy to have you here.

莱尼：很高兴你能来到这里。

So Marty Cagan introduced us, a colleague of yours at Silicon Valley Product Group.

马蒂·凯根向我们介绍了您在硅谷产品小组的一位同事。

And the way he described you is he considers you the most interesting man in the world.

他描述你的方式是他认为你是世界上最有趣的人。

Did you know that that's how he thinks about you?

你知道他就是这么想你的吗？

Christian Idiodi: I didn't.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：我没有。

I consider him one of the most interesting people in the world too.

我也认为他是世界上最有趣的人之一。

Lenny: You guys are so kind to each other.

莱尼：你们彼此都非常友善。

I wanted to start with this trend I've been noticing in product management and the perception of product management.

我想从我在产品管理中注意到的这一趋势以及对产品管理的看法开始。

It feels like, I don't know if this is new or if it's always been around, but it feels like there's this trend of people just not liking product managers.

感觉就像，我不知道这是新的还是一直存在，但感觉人们有一种不喜欢产品经理的趋势。

There's trend of founders feeling like they should wait a long time to hire their first product manager.

有一种趋势是，创始人觉得他们应该等待很长时间才能聘请第一位产品经理。

There's a lot of teams that wish they didn't have a product manager in their team.

有很多团队希望他们的团队中没有产品经理。

We don't have this person telling us what to do.

我们没有这个人告诉我们该做什么。

I'm curious just why you think there's often this dislike of product managers.

我很好奇你为什么认为人们常常不喜欢产品经理。

And then for PMs listening, do you have any advice for just how to not become a product manager people don't like and don't want on their team?

然后，对于 PM 们的聆听，您对如何不成为人们不喜欢且不希望加入团队的产品经理有什么建议吗？

Christian Idiodi: I think most people don't like product managers often because they haven't experienced good product managers.

Christian Idiodi：我认为大多数人不喜欢产品经理往往是因为他们没有经历过优秀的产品经理。

The core of product management is competency-based, meaning there is someone in an organization that represents the customer the best, that has a deep knowledge of the customers and your users, that has a deep knowledge of your data, your industry, your business and the product itself.

产品管理的核心是基于能力的，这意味着组织中有人最能代表客户，对客户和用户有深入的了解，对你的数据、你的行业、你的业务和产品本身有深入的了解。

And because of this competence, you kind of trust them to make decisions because if you have a problem that says, say we want more customers, it makes a lot of sense to go to the person that is an expert in customers to say, "Help me solve this problem." What you see happening in many organizations is that there is kind of this misperception displaced influence and mistrust because of the poor competency, meaning I feel I know more about the business or I know more about the customer or the data.

由于这种能力，你有点相信他们会做出决定，因为如果你遇到一个问题，比如我们需要更多客户，那么去找客户专家说“帮我解决这个问题”是很有意义的。您在许多组织中看到的情况是，由于能力差，这种误解取代了影响和不信任，这意味着我觉得我对业务了解更多，或者我对客户或数据了解更多。

And so why should I not tell you what to do?

那么我为什么不告诉你该怎么做呢？

Christian Idiodi: And I think people fail to understand that this role is, it's a team spot.

Christian Idiodi：我认为人们无法理解这个角色，它是一个团队位置。

They are part of a team of people working together to discover a solution we're building and in a way that works for our company.

他们是团队的一员，他们共同努力发现我们正在构建的解决方案，并以适合我们公司的方式。

And so I think when I think through the companies I've worked with, where I see this discipline really eroded is where there is just not a competent level of product management.

因此，我认为，当我仔细思考与我合作过的公司时，我发现这一纪律真正受到侵蚀的地方是产品管理水平不高。

The way I describe it to a CEO, I'll ask him, "Tell me who you trust in your company to make a decision on what markets we go to, what things we do." And they always have some senior leader, some VP, some person.

我向首席执行官描述这一点时，我会问他：“告诉我，你信任公司中的谁来决定我们进入哪些市场，我们做什么。”他们总是有一些高级领导、一些副总裁、一些人。

And I say, "Why?

我说：“为什么？

Oh, Bob has been here a long time.

哦，鲍勃已经在这里很久了。

He knows everybody.

他认识每个人。

Everybody loves him and trusts him.

每个人都爱他并信任他。

He understands our business." And I often say to him, I say, "Well, Bob said put up manager." And it's often interesting to executives when I try to explain that way.

他了解我们的业务。”我经常对他说，“好吧，鲍勃说的是经理。”当我尝试以这种方式解释时，高管们通常会很感兴趣。

I say that's the competent level that we're talking about here.

我说这就是我们这里所说的胜任水平。

Christian Idiodi: Imagine if you had Bob's on every team.

Christian Idiodi：想象一下，如果每个团队都有鲍勃。

Imagine how much you can accomplish.

想象一下你能完成多少事情。

So one, I don't really think it's...

所以，我真的不认为这是...

I often say it's not the hate for product management, it's a hate for the understanding of what they have experienced in product management, which are people that are not able to deliver results that help them meet the outcomes they want.

我经常说，这不是对产品管理的厌恶，而是对他们在产品管理中所经历的理解的厌恶，这些人无法交付帮助他们实现他们想要的结果的结果。

Christian Idiodi: So if I were advising product managers, I often say, look, when we see sales or executive driven product management where we see these alternatives to product management, it's not a cultural knock or a leadership knock, it's really on the individual and the discipline has to elevate itself to a place that it earns the right to make a decision on what we do.

Christian Idiodi：所以，如果我为产品经理提供建议，我经常说，看，当我们看到销售或执行驱动的产品管理时，我们看到这些产品管理的替代方案，这不是文化冲击或领导力冲击，它实际上取决于个人，并且纪律必须提升到一个位置，使其有权对我们的工作做出决定。

Lenny: I have exactly the same perspective.

莱尼：我也有完全相同的观点。

When people say they don't like product managers, exactly what I tell them is, you just haven't worked with a great product manager.

当人们说他们不喜欢产品经理时，我告诉他们的是，你只是没有和一位优秀的产品经理一起工作。

A great PM makes everything easier for you.

优秀的产品经理会让您的一切变得更加轻松。

If you want to be a PM, people would hate to lose on their team.

如果你想成为一名产品经理，人们会不愿意在团队中失败。

I would never want to lose Christian on my team as a PM.

我永远不想在我的团队中失去克里斯蒂安作为总理。

Is there something they could do maybe or change to become that person?

他们可以做些什么或改变来成为那个人吗？

Christian Idiodi: Well, I was just joking with someone earlier.

Christian Idiodi：嗯，我之前只是和某人开玩笑。

I said, "I've only seen great product managers come out of two places.

我说：“我只见过来自两个地方的优秀产品经理。

One, either a series of massive failure in their career or experiences that have been bad or from learning from great product leaders." The reality of this kind of role, it's kind of like if you have all kinds of...

其一，要么是职业生涯中一系列巨大的失败，要么是糟糕的经历，要么是向伟大的产品领导者学习。”这种角色的现实，有点像如果你有各种各样的......

maybe you're like on a sport, like a quarterback on a team, you need to practice product management to be good at product management.

也许你就像一项运动，就像一支球队的四分卫，你需要练习产品管理才能擅长产品管理。

You're not going to get mastery by avoiding some of these elements.

通过避免其中一些元素，您不会获得精通。

Christian Idiodi: And we've kind of clearly defined what you need to represent to a company for them to trust you.

Christian Idiodi：我们已经明确定义了您需要向公司展示什么，才能让他们信任您。

So there is this period of humility that I challenge all product managers to have, this period of learning, recognizing what you do not know.

因此，我向所有产品经理提出了这一阶段的谦逊要求，即学习的阶段，认识到自己不知道的东西。

And what you do not have is the trust of an organization or even in yourself that you know the customer, the business or the data better than anybody else.

而你所缺乏的是组织的信任，甚至是你自己的信任，即你比任何人都更了解客户、业务或数据。

What you need to do is quickly try to accelerate that.

你需要做的就是快速尝试加速这一过程。

You're going to find the loudest, most influential person in your organization, the person that everybody knows, knows everything, is in every meeting and stuff, and you're going to ask them to teach you.

你会发现你的组织中声音最大、最有影响力的人，每个人都认识的人，知道一切，参加每次会议和其他事情，你会请他们来教你。

You're going to challenge them.

你要挑战他们。

And if they don't have the time to teach you, you're going to volunteer to help them.

如果他们没有时间教你，你就会自愿帮助他们。

I'm going to intern for you.

我去给你实习。

You're going to get permission from your manager and say, "Look, I want to spend time with Lenny.

你需要得到经理的许可并说：“听着，我想和莱尼共度时光。

He's the head of sales, he's the head of operations and stuff.

他是销售主管、运营主管等等。

I just want to learn from him."

我只是想向他学习。”

Christian Idiodi: Now, what you're doing is you're extending that person's trust to yourself.

Christian Idiodi：现在，你所做的就是让那个人对你自己产生信任。

You're also building a relationship with that person.

您也在与那个人建立关系。

But more importantly, you're learning what is driving that person's influence, which is their competence in the business or the customer.

但更重要的是，您正在了解是什么推动了该人的影响力，即他们在业务或客户方面的能力。

Christian Idiodi: After you've done that, you have to keep doing discovery because what's going to be different now is that person knows they've taught you everything that they know, but everybody now sees you learning every single day.

Christian Idiodi：完成之后，你必须继续进行发现，因为现在不同的是，人们知道他们已经教给你他们所知道的一切，但现在每个人都看到你每天都在学习。

So at some point, people will recognize that you might have more insights and more data than anybody else, and they will only know this because they've seen you learn from the best and they've seen you continuing to learn.

因此，在某些时候，人们会认识到你可能比其他人拥有更多的见解和更多的数据，他们只会知道这一点，因为他们看到你向最优秀的人学习，并且看到你继续学习。

So I always practically advise product managers in this kind of scenario, build relationships with people.

因此，在这种情况下，我总是建议产品经理与人建立关系。

You earn their trust by asking them to do two things.

你可以通过要求他们做两件事来赢得他们的信任。

One, you're either going to teach me or I'm going to help you.

第一，要么你来教我，要么我来帮助你。

And you're going to build relationships there, gain experience with them.

你将在那里建立关系，获得与他们的经验。

You've got to immerse yourself in the deeper understanding of the business and the data.

您必须深入了解业务和数据。

Lenny: Wow, there's a lot there.

莱尼：哇，那里有很多东西。

Because this is awesome.

因为这太棒了。

This is exactly, I think what people want to hear is how do you become better and how do you become more trusted and respected?

这正是，我想人们想听到的是你如何变得更好，你如何变得更值得信任和尊重？

So things you're recommending to PMs that want to become better, less disliked, more successful.

所以你向那些想要变得更好、更少不受欢迎、更成功的产品经理推荐的东西。

I just took some notes as you were talking.

我只是在你说话的时候做了一些笔记。

One is there's a sense of becoming more full stack in the company, like understand the business, not just there's your one product and here's your one goal.

一是公司有一种变得更加全栈的感觉，比如了解业务，而不仅仅是你的一种产品和你的一个目标。

And then this idea of just be always learning, which is both you are learning things and also people see that you're learning and see that you really care about a lot of the parts of the business that maybe you wouldn't naturally be inclined to understand.

然后就是永远学习的想法，即你在学习东西，人们也看到你在学习，看到你真的关心业务的很多部分，而这些部分可能你自然不会倾向于理解。

And that also helps you build relationships.

这也可以帮助您建立关系。

And also just this really important point of if you know more than anyone else, people will innately trust you and respect you and want you on the team because you happen to have a lot of answers.

还有一点非常重要，如果你比其他人知道的更多，人们会天生信任你、尊重你并希望你加入团队，因为你碰巧有很多答案。

Lenny: Awesome.

莱尼：太棒了。

Kind of on a similar thread, something that Silicon Valley product group has is a really good definition of what a product manager's job is.

有点类似，硅谷产品团队对产品经理的工作做了很好的定义。

And I thought it'd be cool just to spend a little time here.

我觉得在这里呆上一会儿就很酷了。

There's these four attributes you guys like to share.

你们喜欢分享以下四个属性。

Can you just talk about that, as a little foundational?

您能简单谈谈这一点吗？

Christian Idiodi: I kind of mentioned before, a product manager is in a team spor., so they work as part of a team to uncover a solution, what to build.

Christian Idiodi：我之前提到过，产品经理属于团队运动，因此他们作为团队的一部分工作，以发现解决方案，构建什么。

And every time you solve a problem, there's inherent risk involved.

每次解决问题时，都会涉及固有的风险。

There's the risk of will people buy this or will they choose it or will they choose to use it, which is all a value type of risk.

存在人们会购买它、选择它还是选择使用它的风险，这些都是价值类型的风险。

There's the risk of can they use it, which is a usability type of risk.

存在他们能否使用它的风险，这是一种可用性类型的风险。

The risk that we can build it to have the skills to build it or the time to build this, that's a feasibility risk.

我们可以构建它以拥有构建它的技能或构建它的时间的风险，这就是可行性风险。

Christian Idiodi: And the risk of it working for our business, which is a viability risk.

Christian Idiodi：以及它对我们业务的风险，即生存风险。

I cannot call out the product manager's competency.

我无法说出产品经理的能力。

It's really to try to drive the first and the last one, which is value and viability.

真正是要努力推动第一个和最后一个，也就是价值和生存能力。

A solution worth building, something people will buy, choose or use, and one that works for our business, which is at the core of what product teams do, solve a problem in a way customers will love and a way that works for our business.

一个值得构建的解决方案，人们会购买、选择或使用的解决方案，并且适合我们的业务，这是产品团队工作的核心，以客户喜欢的方式解决问题，并以适合我们业务的方式解决问题。

It's why the product manager gets all the rap of, if everything goes great, a great team effort, if everything goes wrong, they blame the product manager.

这就是为什么产品经理会得到大家的赞誉，如果一切顺利，那就是团队的努力，如果一切出了问题，他们就会责怪产品经理。

Christian Idiodi: It's because people hold them accountable to results.

Christian Idiodi：这是因为人们要求他们对结果负责。

Nobody wants to work on something nobody wanted in the first place and your job is to ensure that we are working on something people want in the first place.

没有人愿意做一些本来就没有人想要的事情，而你的工作就是确保我们首先做的是人们想要的事情。

And it is such an amazing role.

这是一个非常了不起的角色。

I try to explain to people that the real essence of this job is that you wake up on behalf of someone else to solve a problem for them.

我试图向人们解释，这份工作的真正本质是你代表别人醒来，为他们解决问题。

And what an amazing job.

这是多么了不起的工作啊。

There's just no greater...

没有比这更伟大的了...

I cannot think of a better discipline with such inherent permission to solve problems on behalf of someone.

我想不出比这更好的纪律了，它具有如此内在的权限来代表某人解决问题。

And you have to do it well enough that they give you something back in return.

你必须做得足够好，他们才会给你一些回报。

That's the real essence of it, and that's the, I always call it a certificate of appreciation.

这就是它的真正本质，这就是，我总是称其为感谢状。

And it could be in the form of revenue, engagement, loyalty, reference, all of those things.

它可以是收入、参与度、忠诚度、推荐度等所有形式。

And that's the real essence of this job.

这就是这项工作的真正本质。

If it's not fun, you're probably not doing it right.

如果它不有趣，那么你可能没有做对。

If it's not hard, you're probably also not doing it right.

如果这并不难，那么你可能也没有做对。

Lenny: Wow, I love that frame of reference of you're giving something to customers and your success is measured by do they give something back in return, which is basically do they pay for your product?

莱尼：哇，我喜欢你为客户提供一些东西的参考框架，你的成功是通过他们是否给予回报来衡量的，这基本上就是他们为你的产品付费吗？

Such a beautiful way to think about that.

这是一个多么美妙的思考方式。

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

Lenny: Okay.

莱尼：好的。

So just to summarize these four elements, there's value, usability, viability, feasibility to understand if the product they're building hits all these attributes.

因此，总结一下这四个要素，即价值、可用性、生存能力、可行性，以了解他们正在构建的产品是否满足所有这些属性。

Christian Idiodi: That's right.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：没错。

You're trying to uncover a solution and you know you've solved the problem when you get those two things, something customers love, they give you something back, and our business can support it in some ways.

你试图找到一个解决方案，当你得到这两件事时，你知道你已经解决了问题，客户喜欢的东西，他们给你一些回报，我们的业务可以以某种方式支持它。

And I'm calling out, these are the different risks in our kind of taxonomy, how we call the things you have to tackle.

我要指出的是，这些是我们分类法中的不同风险，我们如何称呼你必须解决的事情。

And it's a team sport, and so there are these four risks of should we build it, will people use it, will people buy it, will our customers support it or our business support it?

这是一项团队运动，因此存在以下四种风险：我们是否应该构建它、人们会使用它、人们会购买它、我们的客户会支持它还是我们的业务会支持它？

And you're trying to answer those questions with a designer and a product engineer.

您正在尝试与设计师和产品工程师一起回答这些问题。

Lenny: Of these four, so value, usability, viability, feasibility, where do you think most new PMs fail most or should spend more time?

Lenny：在这四个方面，那么价值、可用性、可行性、可行性，您认为大多数新产品经理在哪里失败最多或者应该花更多时间？

Christian Idiodi: Oh my goodness, value.

Christian Idiodi：天哪，值。

Value is probably, it is the most important and the most overlooked.

价值可能是最重要的，也是最容易被忽视的。

And the big driver for that is often because of the operating model of teams.

其主要驱动因素通常是团队的运营模式。

Teams are often given roadmaps of projects and features to go build and deliver.

团队通常会获得要构建和交付的项目和功能的路线图。

If that's the case, you actually really don't need a product manager because they're going to assume value.

如果是这样的话，你实际上真的不需要产品经理，因为他们会承担价值。

If the boss told me to build this, I cannot say, "Should we build this?

如果老板让我建造这个，我不能说：“我们应该建造这个吗？

Is this the right thing to build?

这是正确的构建方式吗？

Is there a better option?

有更好的选择吗？

Is this what people will buy?" You just assume it's valuable.

这是人们会买的东西吗？”你只是假设它有价值。

Christian Idiodi: And so often, when people ask me why does the product manager seem to play like a core leadership role on a team, almost like the quarterback.

Christian Idiodi：经常，当人们问我为什么产品经理似乎在团队中扮演着核心领导角色，几乎就像四分卫一样。

And it's not that they're more special in solving the problem that the designer or the engineer, but they're answering a question that determines if we should be working on this in the first place.

并不是说他们在解决问题方面比设计师或工程师更特别，而是他们正在回答一个决定我们是否应该首先解决这个问题的问题。

Christian Idiodi: So value is often the hardest thing to solve and must be overlooked.

Christian Idiodi：所以价值往往是最难解决的问题，必须被忽视。

We often see bad patterns where companies will say, "Yes, we ran a test, with 300 users and they all scored it 84% or 90%.

我们经常看到不好的模式，公司会说：“是的，我们对 300 名用户进行了测试，他们的得分都是 84% 或 90%。

They love it." In that way.

他们喜欢它。”就这样。

I said, "Well, just because somebody can use your product doesn't mean that they will buy it.

我说：“嗯，仅仅因为有人可以使用你的产品并不意味着他们就会购买它。

Just because they can use it doesn't mean they will choose it.

仅仅因为他们可以使用它并不意味着他们会选择它。

Just because they can use it doesn't mean that they will actually use it." And what people say is often different from what they do.

仅仅因为他们可以使用它并不意味着他们会真正使用它。”人们所说的往往与他们所做的不同。

And our job is to actually solve the problem, which is what core value is, in a meaningful way.

我们的工作是以有意义的方式实际解决问题，这就是核心价值。

And often overlooked because we check the box on our own item.

而且经常被忽视，因为我们在自己的项目上勾选了复选框。

So the most important, because that's to the point of the certificate of appreciation, what you get in return, that's the ultimate outcome.

所以最重要的是，因为这关系到感谢状，你得到的回报，这就是最终的结果。

Really, value.

真的，值。

Lenny: You once gave a talk along these lines around discovery, and it was this talk of here's all of the things you can do to help understand what to build to make something valuable.

Lenny：您曾经围绕发现进行过一次演讲，这次演讲讨论了您可以做的所有事情，以帮助理解构建什么来使某些东西变得有价值。

There's a billion frameworks for every step of the discovery process, press releases, story mapping, opportunity solution, trees, fake door tests, all these things.

发现过程的每一步、新闻稿、故事映射、机会解决方案、树木、假门测试，所有这些都有十亿个框架。

And you're like, if we had to pick one thing, if there's one process or approach that you recommend most, your answer was essentially finding some number of reference customers to work with and helping them and working with them to design the product.

你会想，如果我们必须选择一件事，如果有一种你最推荐的流程或方法，那么你的答案本质上就是找到一些可以合作的参考客户，帮助他们并与他们一起设计产品。

Do you still see that as the one, if you had to pick one approach to figure out what to build?

如果您必须选择一种方法来弄清楚要构建什么，您仍然认为这是一种方法吗？

And if so, you just talk about how you recommend going about that.

如果是这样，你只需谈谈你建议如何去做。

Christian Idiodi: The holy grail of product walk is really a reference customer.

Christian Idiodi：产品行走的圣杯实际上是参考客户。

This is somebody that has used your solution or your product, loves it enough to tell people about it.

这是使用过您的解决方案或产品的人，非常喜欢它并愿意向人们介绍它。

I kind of described the work of the product team is to solve problems in a way that customers love and a way that works for our business.

我描述了产品团队的工作就是以客户喜欢的、适合我们业务的方式解决问题。

The ultimate definition for me today of the love that somebody has for our product is they're willing to put their reputation on the line by telling people about it.

今天，对我来说，人们对我们产品的热爱的最终定义是，他们愿意冒着声誉风险，向人们介绍我们的产品。

And for me, if we think about you do a lot of interviews with founders and entrepreneurs and you're going to have people that they find a market with an idea and they jump in.

对我来说，如果我们对创始人和企业家进行大量采访，就会发现人们发现了一个有想法的市场，然后他们就加入了。

But if you think at the core of some of these founder-inspired businesses where the founder will say, "Well, I had a problem and it was their problem and they focused on solving the problem and then they got their friends on it."

但如果你想想这些受创始人启发的企业的核心，创始人会说，“嗯，我遇到了一个问题，这是他们的问题，他们专注于解决问题，然后他们让他们的朋友解决这个问题。”

Christian Idiodi: And so it's almost like this idea that if they were their own first reference customer.

Christian Idiodi：如果他们是自己的第一个参考客户，这几乎就像这个想法。

They were so close to the problem, immersed in the environment of the problem, solved it in a compelling way enough where it was like, there are more people like me.

他们如此接近问题，沉浸在问题的环境中，以足够引人注目的方式解决它，就像，有更多像我这样的人。

And it is like if I said to you, "Lenny, let's go to a steakhouse.

就像我对你说：“莱尼，我们去牛排馆吧。

Find me a new steakhouse around you." You might go online and Google and you see a steakhouse with one review.

帮我在你周围找一家新的牛排馆。”你可能会上网和谷歌，然后你会看到一家牛排馆有一条评论。

How do you feel about that?

你对此有何感想？

I don't know.

我不知道。

Maybe other people don't want to try this.

也许其他人不想尝试这个。

You see two reviews, you're like, maybe it's the chef and their spouse or something.

你看到两条评论，你会想，也许是厨师和他们的配偶之类的。

The question is how many positive reviews would you have to see to jump and say, "Let's go try this one." There are some things inherent in, if you look at Geoffrey Moore's adoption curve and those kinds of models in here, most people don't want to be the first to try things.

问题是你必须看到多少正面评论才能跳起来说：“我们去试试这个吧。”如果你看看杰弗里摩尔的采用曲线和这里的那些模型，有一些固有的东西，大多数人不想成为第一个尝试的人。

But you are likely to try things if other people that look like you have accepted it or defined it as good.

但如果其他看起来像你的人已经接受了某件事或将其定义为好的事情，你就可能会尝试。

Christian Idiodi: And so the whole essence for me of this technique is to create those first people, those reference customers.

Christian Idiodi：所以对我来说，这项技术的全部本质是创造第一批人，那些参考客户。

If you think about how companies make the shift to becoming sales-led or operations-led, almost all companies start product-led.

如果您考虑公司如何转变为销售主导或运营主导，那么几乎所有公司都是从产品主导开始的。

The product is first.

产品是第一位的。

You kind of build something and it's like, yeah, it's going, let's hire salespeople and marketing people and operational people to do it.

你建造了一些东西，然后就好像，是的，它正在进行，让我们雇佣销售人员、营销人员和运营人员来做这件事。

What's really happening is that the product team created the first customers.

真正发生的事情是产品团队创建了第一批客户。

And now a group of people have to capture the value that was created.

现在，一群人必须捕捉所创造的价值。

So what's happening here is that it is constantly the job of product teams.

因此，这里发生的事情始终是产品团队的工作。

The reason they lose influence is because salespeople are having to sell a product.

他们失去影响力的原因是销售人员必须销售产品。

You see?

你看？

So they're like forcing back, "I need this and I need this." But if you came to me and said, "I want to buy steak," and I say, "Let me show you 20 people that look like you that recommend this steakhouse," my job as a salesperson is very easy.

所以他们就像强行反击，“我需要这个，我需要这个。”但如果你来找我说，“我想买牛排”，我说，“让我向你展示 20 个看起来像你的人推荐这家牛排馆”，我作为销售人员的工作就非常简单了。

I'm just like, "Hey, you should eat here.

我只是想，“嘿，你应该在这里吃饭。

Everybody that loves steak, they all eat here."

每个喜欢牛排的人都在这里吃。”

Christian Idiodi: So product teams feel, at this contract to an organization when they don't create powerful reference customers.

Christian Idiodi：因此，当产品团队没有创建强大的参考客户时，他们就会觉得与组织签订了这份合同。

So it's by far my favorite technique.

所以这是迄今为止我最喜欢的技术。

And the way this technique works is you want to discover and deliver and develop who has the problem, the customer.

这种技术的工作方式是你想要发现、交付和开发有问题的人，即客户。

I want to discover who has the problem.

我想找出谁有问题。

At the same time, discover and deliver a solution to this problem.

同时，发现并提供解决该问题的方案。

The idea here is that if you really want to solve a problem, you need to get out of your building.

这里的想法是，如果你真的想解决问题，你需要离开你的大楼。

Go spend time with someone that has the problem and don't leave until you solve the problem.

花时间与有问题的人在一起，直到解决问题为止。

People talk about why we had such a record time to the Covid vaccine.

人们谈论为什么我们的新冠疫苗接种时间如此之长。

Sure, technology has improved, our research has improved.

当然，技术进步了，我们的研究也进步了。

But if you think about it, we had the highest number of volunteers for vaccination in the history of any vaccine in the history of time.

但如果你想一想，我们的疫苗接种志愿者数量是有史以来疫苗接种史上最多的。

Christian Idiodi: Why?

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：为什么？

Did we have to look for someone with Covid?

我们必须寻找感染新冠病毒的人吗？

No, they were literally all around us.

不，他们确实就在我们周围。

The research was immersed in the environment of the problem.

研究沉浸在问题的环境中。

They could study...

他们可以学习...

and so this is often what I call, it's almost like a pressure-cooked discovery in some ways.

所以这就是我经常所说的，在某些方面它几乎就像是一个高压煮的发现。

If you truly, truly want to solve a problem, get out of your building, get out of the assumptions, get out of your opinions.

如果你真的真的想解决问题，就走出你的大楼，摆脱假设，摆脱你的观点。

Immerse yourself, find someone who has the problem, stick with them until you discover a solution for this problem.

让自己沉浸其中，找到有问题的人，坚持下去，直到找到解决该问题的方法。

And you're going to do that.

你会这么做的。

The part of why I love this technique, the two biggest reasons I think, the first is if I cannot find a certain number of people that have this problem, my goodness, it might not be a problem, but solve it.

我喜欢这个技术的部分原因，我认为有两个最大的原因，第一是如果我找不到一定数量的人有这个问题，天哪，这可能不是问题，而是解决它。

I have never had a product failure using this technique.

我使用这种技术从未出现过产品故障。

If I were to credit...

如果我要相信的话...

goodness, I think last count, I'm up to like 205 products I have worked on or participated in creating in my career.

天哪，我想最后数了一下，在我的职业生涯中，我已经开发或参与创建了大约 205 个产品。

And I tried to build a new product every year from scratch.

我每年都尝试从头开始开发一款新产品。

It's kind of a crazy thing about me.

这对我来说有点疯狂。

My friends know what I want for my bad day is a problem worth solving.

我的朋友们知道我在糟糕的一天想要什么是一个值得解决的问题。

And I like to go from idea to revenue, and the setup, and I test all of these techniques in this way.

我喜欢从想法到收入，再到设置，我以这种方式测试所有这些技术。

And everybody knows my favorite technique is if we find a problem worth solving, we need to uncover a solution for B2B, I want six to eight references, for B2C, I want maybe 15 to 25 references as an indication that we've achieved product market fit.

每个人都知道我最喜欢的技术是，如果我们发现一个值得解决的问题，我们需要找到 B2B 的解决方案，我想要六到八个参考，对于 B2C，我可能想要 15 到 25 个参考，以表明我们已经实现了产品市场契合。

Lenny: Just to be clear, you said you still work, you build products yourself and you practice this and you've built...

莱尼：澄清一下，你说过你仍在工作，你自己构建产品，你实践了这一点，你已经构建了......

okay, what's like every recent product that you've built?

好吧，你最近开发的每一个产品都怎么样？

I didn't know this.

我不知道这个。

Christian Idiodi: So I do a lot of work in Africa now.

Christian Idiodi：所以我现在在非洲做了很多工作。

WorkNigeria is like a job board that helps people.

WorkNigeria 就像一个帮助人们的工作委员会。

We do kind of a job board HR replacement and advisory too as well.

我们也提供招聘委员会人力资源更换和咨询服务。

I'm actually working on another app around the NDA and protecting high-asset individuals in some ways.

实际上，我正在围绕 NDA 开发另一个应用程序，并以某种方式保护高资产个人。

So kind of every year, I find a problem like that worth solving and I practice doing the work of discovery with a team of people.

每年，我都会发现一个值得解决的问题，并且我会与一群人一起练习发现工作。

Lenny: That's amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I see this unraveling of the most interesting man in the world is happening a little, bit by bit.

我看到这个世界上最有趣的人的真相正在一点一点地发生。

We learn more and more about you.

我们越来越了解您。

Okay, amazing.

好吧，太棒了。

So just to kind of summarize some of these-

所以只是总结一下其中的一些 -

Lenny: Okay, amazing.

莱尼：好的，太棒了。

So just to summarize some of these points, which are really great and I've never heard it described this way before.

总结一下其中的一些观点，这些观点真的很棒，我以前从未听过这样的描述。

So basically, a really effective way to understand how to build something people actually want and solve real problems is this idea of pick reference customers.

因此，基本上，了解如何构建人们真正想要的东西并解决实际问题的一个真正有效的方法是选择参考客户的想法。

And I really like this word reference, which is not just they're going to help you build a thing, but they're also become a reference to future customers because they end up loving it because you built it for them and they love it.

我真的很喜欢这个词参考，这不仅仅是他们会帮助你构建一个东西，而且他们也成为未来客户的参考，因为他们最终会喜欢它，因为你为他们构建了它并且他们喜欢它。

Lenny: Your advice is find six to eight in B2B space, 15 to 25 in B2C.

Lenny：您的建议是在 B2B 领域找到 6 到 8 个，在 B2C 领域找到 15 到 25 个。

And the reason there's a number here is if you find just one or two, you never know, they might be just the one or two that have this really weird problem that no one else has.

这里有一个数字的原因是，如果你只发现一两个，你永远不知道，他们可能只是一两个遇到其他人没有的非常奇怪的问题。

And I think that's usually the flaw in this approach is you end up building it for a small number of people and nobody else really wants it.

我认为这种方法的缺陷通常是你最终为少数人构建了它，而没有其他人真正想要它。

And it sounds like in your experience, this is a good kind of number where probably a lot of more people will have this problem.

听起来根据您的经验，这是一个很好的数字，可能会有更多的人遇到这个问题。

Christian Idiodi: Yeah.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：是的。

There've been studies to validate some of these numbers.

已经有研究验证其中一些数字。

I think early, IBM, kind of struggled selling those supercomputers.

我认为早期 IBM 在销售这些超级计算机方面遇到了困难。

And if you're buying a million dollar computer, someone says, "Hey, do you want to buy?" And you're like, "I don't know.

如果你要买一台价值百万美元的电脑，有人会说：“嘿，你想买吗？”你会说：“我不知道。

Is there anybody else that has bought it?

还有人买过吗？

Shall I be the first?" And there was this common question of what would it take for you to buy it?

我是第一个吗？”还有一个常见的问题是您需要什么才能购买它？

And someone says, "Hey, if I see five or six people that look like me already have this, then I feel confident making the argument to my company, we should jump on it." And it's like, so how do I create the first five to six?

有人说，“嘿，如果我看到五六个像我一样的人已经有了这个，那么我就有信心向我的公司提出论点，我们应该采取行动。”就像，那么我如何创建前五到六个呢？

And you can see a lot of the validation on B2C in some of the things you might see in the App Store on Yelp or those places.

您可以在 Yelp 或那些地方的 App Store 中看到的一些内容中看到很多 B2C 验证。

My idea here is if you found a steakhouse with 25 5-star reviews, you are likely to adopt this.

我的想法是，如果您发现一家有 25 条 5 星级评论的牛排馆，您很可能会采用它。

Christian Idiodi: So in every app I have ever put on the App Store, on the day I launch the app in the app store, they are 25 5-star reviews.

Christian Idiodi：所以，在我放在 App Store 上的每个应用程序中，在我在应用程序商店中启动该应用程序的那天，它们都是 25 条 5 星评论。

I will never launch an app and be like, "Let's hope Lenny loves it.

我永远不会在推出一款应用程序后说：“希望莱尼喜欢它。

Let's see who the first person." On the very first day of launching the app, there are 25...

让我们看看谁是第一人。”在推出该应用程序的第一天，就有 25...

so I will know I am not ready until I have achieved 25 people that have told me, worked with me and said, "I am now ready to put my reputation the line." Sometimes I might need to work with 30 people or 50 people because the output is 25 reference customers.

因此，直到有 25 个人告诉我、与我共事并说：“我现在准备好以我的声誉为赌注”时，我才会知道自己还没有准备好。有时我可能需要与 30 人或 50 人一起工作，因为输出是 25 个参考客户。

Because if Lenny is like, "I don't love it enough" or "I don't feel comfortable," I'm not going to customize for Lenny.

因为如果莱尼说，“我不够喜欢它”或“我感觉不舒服”，我就不会为莱尼定制。

I'm going to find my single target market, talk to more people.

我要找到我的单一目标市场，与更多的人交谈。

If I get 25, I have achieved product market fit.

如果我得到 25，我就实现了产品市场契合。

Lenny: So interesting.

莱尼：太有趣了。

It basically kicks in this word of mouth flywheel that everyone's always looking for is how do I get people to talk about it.

它基本上启动了口碑飞轮，每个人一直在寻找的是我如何让人们谈论它。

Build it for them, solve their problems, tell them that it exists.

为他们构建它，解决他们的问题，告诉他们它的存在。

You mentioned a bit about how you understand if it's actually, let's call a product market fit, if you have product market fit with these people that you ask them if they're going to leave you a 5-star review for example.

您提到了一些关于您如何理解的问题，如果实际上，让我们称之为产品市场契合度，如果您的产品市场契合度与这些人相同，那么您会询问他们是否会给您留下 5 星评价。

I guess what do you consider this is good, I got one more person that's really happy with this?

我想你认为这有什么好处，我又多了一个对此感到非常满意的人？

What tells you it's got product market fit with a person?

什么告诉你它的产品市场适合一个人？

Christian Idiodi: If I were thinking about how I will do this, pick a problem to solve, first of all, I have to know who I'm solving the problem for.

Christian Idiodi：如果我在考虑如何做到这一点，选择一个要解决的问题，首先，我必须知道我要为谁解决问题。

And in some indication and I want to validate that this is actually a problem you do have.

在某些迹象中，我想验证这实际上是您确实遇到的问题。

And I'm looking for a certain type of person.

我正在寻找某种类型的人。

These early adopters in our world are broken up to technologists and evangelists.

我们世界上的这些早期采用者分为技术专家和传播者。

Technologists could be, "I love the new iPhone 16 is coming out and it's going to have five cameras and I write an article in some tech review board.

技术专家可能会说，“我喜欢即将推出的新款 iPhone 16，它将有五个摄像头，我在某个技术审查委员会写了一篇文章。

Super fast, super sleek, all good design." You just love new technology.

超级快，超级时尚，所有设计都很好。”你只是喜欢新技术。

You always jump on new technology.

你总是会采用新技术。

And evangelist could be someone that says, "Oh my, I look great with the iPhone 15, it has three cameras.

布道者可能会说：“天哪，我用 iPhone 15 看起来很棒，它有三个摄像头。

I will look phenomenal with the iPhone 16, so I'm going to go stand in line at the Apple Store for three hours or overnight because I just can't wait to get my hands on the Apple 16."

iPhone 16 会让我看起来非常漂亮，所以我会去 Apple Store 排队三个小时或通宵，因为我迫不及待地想拿到 Apple 16。”

Christian Idiodi: They may feel a little irrational, but those are the kind of people you're looking for, people that believe they have a problem.

Christian Idiodi：他们可能会觉得有点不理性，但这些人就是你要寻找的人，那些相信自己有问题的人。

So it's like you will try any steakhouse, in my example.

所以在我的例子中，就像你会尝试任何牛排馆一样。

You're just like, "I love steak.

你就像，“我喜欢牛排。

I don't care if there are reviews or not.

我不在乎有没有评论。

I'll try it." And what I'm trying to do here is I'm saying, okay, Lenny loves steak, he wants to try a steakhouse.

我会尝试一下。”我在这里想做的是，好吧，莱尼喜欢牛排，他想尝试一下牛排馆。

And I'm good to say, "Lenny, I'm trying to build the best steakhouse here.

我很高兴地说：“莱尼，我正在努力在这里建造最好的牛排馆。

If I create a menu that you absolutely love, are you willing to tell people about it?" That could be a video testimonial, write a review, stuff like that.

如果我制作了一份你绝对喜欢的菜单，你愿意告诉人们吗？”这可能是视频推荐、写评论等等。

And it's okay Lenny, if you don't love the first iteration of it and stuff like that, I want to hear your feedback.

没关系，莱尼，如果你不喜欢它的第一次迭代之类的东西，我想听听你的反馈。

I want you to work with me in ensuring that I build the best steakhouse here.

我希望你和我一起努力，确保我在这里建造最好的牛排馆。

And that's kind of the idea.

这就是这个想法。

Christian Idiodi: So I'm going to work with 25 people that look like you and I'm going to keep tweaking, in this sense iterating on the product and the menu until Lenny's like, "My goodness, this is the best steakhouse in the world." It is like I'm just going to write about it and when I get 25 people that have all, it's not the steakhouse, they love it enough.

Christian Idiodi：所以我将与 25 个看起来像你的人一起工作，我将不断调整，从这个意义上迭代产品和菜单，直到 Lenny 说，“天哪，这是世界上最好的牛排馆。”就好像我正要写下它，当我得到 25 个人都拥有的时候，这不是牛排馆，他们足够喜欢它了。

Because this is where you really get the shift in value.

因为这是你真正获得价值转变的地方。

Because if I say, "Lenny, go write me a review, a five-star review." You're like, "I don't know if I feel comfortable about." You say, "Why not?" You see, I'm really going to get deeper feedback because people will say or do anything just to avoid hurting our feelings or for us to get out of their face.

因为如果我说，“莱尼，去给我写一篇评论，一篇五星级的评论。”你会说，“我不知道我是否感到舒服。”你说：“为什么不呢？”你看，我真的会得到更深入的反馈，因为人们会说或做任何事情只是为了避免伤害我们的感情或让我们从他们面前消失。

So they'll be like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll give you a five-star review." But when I say do it, you're like, "Well, I have this hesitation." Why?

所以他们会说，“是啊，是啊，是啊，我会给你五星级的评价。”但当我说去做时，你会说，“好吧，我有这个犹豫。”为什么？

That's really where great discovery comes.

这确实是伟大发现的来源。

But it's hard to in a silo.

但在筒仓里很难做到。

You have to be immersed with the person that has the problem.

你必须沉浸在有问题的人身边。

So product market fit is when you iterate it in this discovery, you've discovered and delivered something so meaningful that these customers that are your target customers, are willing to put their reputation on the line and be a reference.

因此，产品市场契合度是指当你在这个发现中重复它时，你发现并交付了一些非常有意义的东西，以至于这些作为你的目标客户的客户愿意冒着声誉风险并成为参考。

That's my indication.

这就是我的指示。

Lenny: I imagine though, Christian, so charismatic, comes to me and says, "Hey Lenny, would you leave me a five star review for this product.

莱尼：不过我想，如此有魅力的克里斯蒂安会来找我说：“嘿莱尼，你能给我这个产品留下五星级的评价吗？

I'm working on this, I'm trying to figure out if people want it." I would be like, "Yeah, of course.

我正在研究这个，我想弄清楚人们是否想要它。”我会说：“是的，当然。

I'll leave you a five-star review." What do you do to kind of avoid that, just like I just want to be nice, like I don't care, I'll leave a five-star review.

我会给你五星级的评价。”你会做什么来避免这种情况，就像我只是想表现得友善，就像我不在乎一样，我会留下五星级的评论。

Christian Idiodi: You.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：你。

It's part of why I need 25 in B2C.

这也是我在 B2C 领域需要 25 的部分原因。

And don't get me wrong, if I can convince 25 people in there, I may have a marketing product and a charismatic marketing products.

不要误会我的意思，如果我能说服那里的 25 个人，我可能会拥有一个营销产品和一个有魅力的营销产品。

If that's all I needed to do was a good message and charisma to get people on it.

如果这就是我需要做的，那就是一个好的信息和魅力来吸引人们的关注。

The good benefits of this is that you can tackle risk very early because you can involve many other parts of your organization, marketing, sales, legal, finance.

这样做的好处是您可以尽早应对风险，因为您可以让组织的许多其他部分参与其中，包括营销、销售、法律、财务。

People often ask me how do I come up with the marketing spiel or the description?

人们经常问我如何提出营销演讲或描述？

I'm like, "I don't make that up." If I ask Lenny, "What do you feel about this product?" And he says, "Well, it's cool and it's very sleek and very nice." The marketing department will say, "We don't like those terms.

我想，“这不是我编造的。”如果我问莱尼：“你对这个产品有什么感觉？”他说：“嗯，这很酷，而且非常时尚，非常漂亮。”营销部门会说：“我们不喜欢这些条款。

We want to call it comprehensive." And when you go out to sell your product, people are going to be disappointed because the expectations are created by what's on the box.

我们想称之为全面的。”当你出去销售你的产品时，人们会感到失望，因为期望是由盒子上的东西创造的。

Christian Idiodi: I only market exactly what customers tell me.

Christian Idiodi：我只按照客户告诉我的内容进行营销。

I have never been surprised about what customers will say when I release a product because in this technique I already get their feedback.

当我发布产品时，我从来没有对客户会说什么感到惊讶，因为通过这种技术，我已经得到了他们的反馈。

And so I'm going to put exactly what Lenny said on the box.

所以我要把莱尼所说的话准确地写在盒子上。

"Hey, this product's cool and sleek and easy to use." I've only launched a product that says super fast but difficult to read because the technology team said there was no way to change the font on something and it was just going to be difficult to read.

“嘿，这个产品很酷，很时尚，而且很容易使用。”我只推出了一款声称速度超快但难以阅读的产品，因为技术团队表示无法更改某些内容的字体，而且阅读起来会很困难。

And you know what everybody did when they got the product?

你知道每个人拿到产品后都做了什么吗？

"Oh my goodness, it is super .

“天哪，太棒了。

All right, it is also difficult to read." It matched their expectations in some ways.

好吧，这也很难读。”它在某些方面符合他们的期望。

So what I do here is I learn how to sell the product with this technique, I learn how to market the product because I have real people, that we're not making assumptions.

所以我在这里所做的是学习如何用这种技术销售产品，我学习如何营销产品，因为我有真实的人，我们不会做出假设。

Christian Idiodi: What's the best way to market this?

Christian Idiodi：营销这个产品的最佳方式是什么？

How much Lenny?

莱尼多少钱？

How would you find this?

你会如何找到这个？

Does this language resonate with you?

这种语言能引起您的共鸣吗？

Does this properly describe the menu?

这是否正确描述了菜单？

See?

看？

So that's kind of what you're doing when you use a technique like this.

这就是当你使用这样的技术时你正在做的事情。

It feels heavy to people, but that's kind of part of the practice of it.

这对人们来说感觉很沉重，但这就是它的实践的一部分。

If you do this a whole lot, you get really comfortable at involving, you're working with your customers to solve it.

如果你经常这样做，你就会非常轻松地参与其中，并与你的客户一起解决问题。

But for me, the fact that you will not have a product failure because you have a natural pivot out, meaning if I can't find 25 people that love steak, why in the world am I building a steakhouse?

但对我来说，事实上你不会有产品失败，因为你有一个自然的转型，这意味着如果我找不到 25 个喜欢牛排的人，我到底为什么要建造一家牛排馆？

So if you don't find enough people that love this problem and are willing to help you, just be like, this is not a problem worth solving.

因此，如果您没有找到足够多的人喜欢这个问题并愿意帮助您，那就说，这不是一个值得解决的问题。

But more importantly, you really start to get...

但更重要的是，你真的开始...

is the fastest part to product market fit, the clearest definition for me because I know when my product is ready, when I've dotted those I's and crossed those T's, in that way.

是产品市场适应最快的部分，对我来说是最清晰的定义，因为我知道我的产品何时准备就绪，何时我以这种方式点缀了那些“我”并跨越了那些“T”。

Lenny: I think your point there, recruiting is itself a huge signal, is really important.

莱尼：我认为你的观点是，招募本身就是一个巨大的信号，非常重要。

Can you find people that have this problem and care enough about this problem that they're going to talk to you and spend time exploring this thing that doesn't exist yet.

你能否找到有这个问题并且足够关心这个问题的人，他们会与你交谈并花时间探索这个尚不存在的东西。

I think that's super interesting.

我认为这非常有趣。

And then I think another key part of this is it's one solution that solves many people's problems.

我认为另一个关键部分是它是一个解决许多人问题的解决方案。

And it can't be a bunch of different things for a bunch of different people.

对于一群不同的人来说，它不可能是一堆不同的东西。

Christian Idiodi: That's right, that's right.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：没错，没错。

If one person says, "I don't want this," wants this, another person wants this, you don't do it.

如果一个人说，“我不想要这个”，想要这个，另一个人想要这个，你就不会这样做。

That's how you know you do the minimum.

这就是你知道你做了最少的事情的方式。

All 25 have to want the same thing.

所有 25 个人都想要同样的东西。

If one person's out, you just don't do it at all.

如果一个人出去了，你就根本不做这件事。

And the reason that's powerful is because if I come to you and I say, "Hey, it's missing this feature." I say, "Well yeah, 25 people that look like you that are very happy without it." You see?

它之所以强大，是因为如果我来找你，我说：“嘿，它缺少这个功能。”我说：“嗯，是的，有 25 个人像你一样，没有它也很快乐。”你看？

That's how if you think about what you do in a review, you see the five stars and you instantly like, "Oh, that's good enough." But if you have a question, what do you do, you cannot double click on the review to read.

这就是为什么当你思考你在评论中所做的事情时，你会看到五颗星，然后你会立即喜欢，“哦，这已经足够好了。”但如果你有疑问，你该怎么办，你不能双击评论来阅读。

And that's how people get convinced.

这就是人们被说服的方式。

There's this social influence of like, "Well, Lenny's cool, he likes the steakhouse.

有这样的社会影响，“嗯，莱尼很酷，他喜欢牛排馆。

I should like it.

我应该喜欢它。

He's fine with this not being there so I should be fine with it." So your references are super powerful in more than any company, in influencing consumers on what they should choose or not choose.

他对不在场很满意，所以我也应该对此感到满意。”因此，在影响消费者应该选择或不选择什么方面，你的推荐比任何公司都更强大。

Lenny: Basically, Strive builds new products exactly this way.

Lenny：基本上，Strive 就是这样构建新产品的。

They find new customers that have a problem and they work with very small number of customers to build a product for them, and that's how a lot of their new product...

他们找到有问题的新客户，并与极少数客户合作为他们构建产品，这就是他们的很多新产品的方式......

I think Rippling works like this too.

我认为涟漪也是这样的。

So I think this is a really good lesson for everyone listening, if they're trying to build something new.

所以我认为这对于每个听的人来说都是一个非常好的教训，如果他们正在尝试构建新的东西的话。

Is there an example that comes to mind that would be, I don't know, interesting to talk through, of something you built that you worked through this process?

我不知道，是否有一个例子是你在这个过程中构建的、值得讨论的有趣例子？

Christian Idiodi: Oh, boy.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：噢，孩子。

I tell the example of solving a problem when I was at a staffing company, a snag job.

我举了一个例子，当时我在一家人力资源公司解决了一个困难的工作问题。

They do hourly jobs and help people find their best job or an hourly job and I actually get a call here from the head of Global staffing at Starbucks.

他们做小时​​工，帮助人们找到最好的工作或小时工，我实际上接到了星巴克全球人事主管的电话。

Now, he called me, you can see the benefit of this technique, because I'm the person he calls when he has problems.

现在，他打电话给我，你可以看到这种技术的好处，因为我是他遇到问题时打电话的人。

I've used this technique with him at a previous company.

我在以前的一家公司和他一起使用过这种技术。

He didn't even know I was at a new company.

他甚至不知道我在新公司。

And he calls me up and he says, "Christian, I have a problem." I said, "Well, don't we all have problems?" He said, well, "We just bought a bakery in the San Francisco Bay Area.

他打电话给我说：“克里斯蒂安，我有一个问题。”我说：“好吧，我们不是都有问题吗？”他说，“我们刚刚在旧金山湾区买了一家面包店。

And as we're doing the paperwork to kind of take over this company or this acquisition, we realized that close to 800 of the employees may be undocumented workers."

当我们正在办理接管这家公司或此次收购的文书工作时，我们意识到接近 800 名员工可能是无证工人。”

Christian Idiodi: And I said, "Wow, that does sound like a problem." He's like, "Yeah, imagine if this breaks out in the news and all of that.

Christian Idiodi：我说，“哇，这听起来确实是个问题。”他说，“是的，想象一下如果这件事在新闻中爆发以及所有这些。

But more importantly, we still need to get all their paperwork.

但更重要的是，我们仍然需要拿到他们的所有文件。

So all these people are going to quit and we'll have a new bakery without employees." And my first question to him as a product guy is like, "Wow, would you give me a million dollars to solve this problem?" And it's like, "No, seriously?" I was like, "300,000." I'm throwing out numbers.

所以所有这些人都会辞职，我们将开一家没有员工的新面包店。”作为产品人员，我向他提出的第一个问题是：“哇，你愿意给我一百万美元来解决这个问题吗？”就像，“不，认真的吗？”我当时想，“300,000。”我要扔掉数字。

He's like, "Maybe." I said, "Wow, you have my attention." I go to my CEO, I tell him to call.

他说：“也许吧。”我说：“哇，你引起了我的注意。”我去找我的首席执行官，让他打电话。

I grab a designer and an engineer.

我找了一名设计师和一名工程师。

I just say, "Hey look, I would love to work on a little project with you all if you have some time." I kind of debrief them on the call.

我只是说，“嘿，听着，如果你们有时间的话，我很乐意和你们一起做一个小项目。”我在电话中向他们汇报情况。

Now the first thing I have to do is to try to define the problem, identify problems.

现在我要做的第一件事就是尝试定义问题、识别问题。

What really is the problem going on?

问题究竟出在哪里？

Christian Idiodi: Yeah, we're breaking it down, we're talking through this.

Christian Idiodi：是的，我们正在分解它，我们正在讨论这个问题。

We say, well, at the end of the day, Starbucks needs to hire like 800 people quickly because we can't fix getting everybody's paperwork.

我们说，好吧，归根结底，星巴克需要快速雇用大约 800 名员工，因为我们无法解决获取每个人的文书工作的问题。

But they're going to lose these people and they need to hire those quickly.

但他们将会失去这些人，他们需要迅速雇用这些人。

And I say, well, who else has this problem?

我说，还有谁有这个问题？

We're trying to throw out guesses.

我们正试图排除猜测。

I'm like, "What are we talking about?

我想，“我们在说什么？

Let's go out." Everybody jumps in my car and we start driving around and this is where we're doing our product work from.

我们出去吧。”每个人都跳进我的车里，我们开始四处行驶，这就是我们进行产品工作的地方。

We're talking in the car, just out of the building.

我们正在车里聊天，就在大楼外。

We see a new construction site for a new McDonald's coming soon and we're curious.

我们看到新麦当劳的新建筑工地即将建成，我们很好奇。

We're like, well, "Let's go find out." We start talking to people on sites.

我们就像，好吧，“让我们去看看吧。”我们开始与网站上的人们交谈。

Fortunately, the operations director is on site and we ask him, we say, tell us about opening up a new McDonald's.

幸运的是，运营总监在现场，我们问他，我们说，告诉我们关于开设一家新麦当劳的事情。

Christian Idiodi: He says, "Well, do you know we need like 120 people on opening day?" We're like, "Whoa, for McDonald's?

Christian Idiodi：他说，“好吧，你知道我们在开业当天需要大约 120 人吗？”我们就像，“哇，麦当劳？

Really, 120 people?" He's like, "Yeah, do you know that most of the people in this industry don't show up to work on the very first day, and every day we're in construction, we're losing money.

真的有120人吗？”他说，“是的，你知道吗，这个行业的大多数人第一天都不会去上班，而且我们每天都在施工，我们都在赔钱。

So the second the bathrooms, the restrooms, are done, we want to open up." We're like, "Wow, we didn't think about this, new construction, a new store opening." They need to hire lots of people quickly.

因此，一旦浴室、卫生间完工，我们就想开放。”我们就像，“哇，我们没有考虑过这个，新建筑，新店开业。”他们需要快速雇用大量人员。

So I said, "Thank you very much." I gave him my business card, he gave me his.

所以我说：“非常感谢。”我给了他我的名片，他也给了我他的名片。

We jumped back in the car.

我们跳回车里。

We just kept driving.

我们只是继续开车。

We went to the mall.

我们去了商场。

We started talking to people there.

我们开始和那里的人交谈。

We talked to a manager at Macy's and she said, "Oh look, we hire 20,000 people in the holiday season."

我们与梅西百货的一位经理交谈，她说：“哦，看，我们在假期期间雇用了 20,000 名员工。”

Christian Idiodi: We're like, "Macy's." Yeah, it's like nights, weekend, shipping, stuff like this.

Christian Idiodi：我们就像“梅西百货”。是的，就像晚上、周末、运输等等。

We started hiring in the summer because of how painful it is.

我们在夏天开始招聘，因为这很痛苦。

Now, all we're doing here is just validating that this is a real problem, like other people will have the problem.

现在，我们在这里所做的只是验证这是一个真正的问题，就像其他人也会遇到这个问题一样。

So we go back to the office, we're brainstorming, like, "How will someone even go about solving this problem?" We're thinking this was like, we're not really sure, but McDonald's guy was very desperate.

所以我们回到办公室，集思广益，比如，“有人会如何解决这个问题？”我们认为这就像，我们不太确定，但麦当劳的人非常绝望。

I said, " I have his business card." We start throwing some ideas.

我说：“我有他的名片。”我们开始提出一些想法。

So I called the McDonald's person and I said, "Look, you just met with us." He's like, "Yeah.

所以我打电话给麦当劳的人，我说：“看，你刚刚见过我们。”他就像是，“是啊。

We would love to help you solve the problem." He said, "Well, what do you have in mind?" I said, "We've been talking.

我们很乐意帮助您解决问题。”他说：“那么，你有什么想法吗？”我说：“我们一直在谈。

What if we just sent you some people to interview.

如果我们只是派一些人来面试怎么办？

And if you like them, you'll hire them."

如果你喜欢他们，你就会雇用他们。”

Christian Idiodi: He said, "That seems fairly easy." He's like, "How do I pay for this?" And we took a swag like, "Maybe you pay us for everybody that you hire." He was like, "Oh, I don't see much risk to that.

Christian Idiodi：他说，“这看起来相当简单。”他说：“我该如何支付这笔费用？”我们接受了这样的诱惑，“也许你为你雇用的每个人付钱给我们。”他说：“哦，我认为这没有太大风险。

This is great." I'm like, "Oh, okay." We have no sense of what to do.

这太棒了。”我说：“哦，好吧。”我们不知道该怎么做。

We are literally Googling, how do people find a job at McDonald's?

我们实际上是在谷歌上搜索，人们如何在麦当劳找到工作？

We go to colleges, we are sticking up flyers.

我们上大学，我们贴传单。

We are putting ads in the newspaper back then, we are looking at different techniques to try to get people into a funnel and interest by posting on Craigslist or things like that.

当时我们在报纸上投放广告，我们正在研究不同的技术，试图通过在 Craigslist 或类似的东西上发帖来吸引人们进入渠道并产生兴趣。

At the end of the week, we get about 40 people that are interested to come to the interview.

本周末，我们收到大约 40 名有兴趣参加面试的人。

We're like, that feels good for our first try.

我们的第一次尝试感觉很好。

We call the manager up and we say, "Look, on Monday we will send you 40 people to interview.

我们打电话给经理说：“看，周一我们会派 40 个人去面试。

This is great."

这太棒了。”

Christian Idiodi: Monday I take my designer, my engineer, we are on site with the manager.

Christian Idiodi：周一我带着我的设计师、工程师、经理一起到现场。

At nine o'clock, we expect three people to show up for interviews.

九点钟，我们预计三个人会来接受采访。

Nobody shows up.

没有人出现。

10 o'clock, another three, one person shows up.

十点钟，又来了三人、一人。

We got to the end of the day, less than 20 people show up.

到了最后一天，到场的人还不到20人。

This man only has four or five people.

这个人只有四五个人。

We are like, "We suck this.

我们就像是，“我们糟透了。

This is terrible." We go to the manager, " Let's go and apologize for wasting your day and stuff." He starts to laugh.

这太可怕了。”我们去找经理，“我们去吧，为浪费你的时间和东西而道歉。”他开始笑。

We're like, "What's going on?" He said, "Look, I forgot to tell you.

我们就像，“发生了什么事？”他说：“听着，我忘了告诉你。

Folks in this industry don't even show up to interviews.

这个行业的人甚至不会接受采访。

We are McDonald's, we pay minimum wage.

我们是麦当劳，我们支付最低工资。

People will leave us for 25 more cents an hour.

人们会为了每小时多付 25 美分而离开我们。

They will leave us for a job that is one block closer to their house or less than a mile closer to their home."

他们会离开我们去寻找离他们家较近一个街区或离他们家不到一英里的工作。”

Christian Idiodi: Now, the engineer is with us and he's thinking about it.

Christian Idiodi：现在，工程师和我们在一起，他正在考虑这个问题。

It's like, this is really interesting.

就好像，这真的很有趣。

About half of the people showed up.

大约有一半的人出现了。

He hired one in five.

他雇用了五分之一的人。

If you really want to solve this problem, playing the laws of averages, we probably need to send this man close to 200 people.

如果你真的想解决这个问题，按照平均法则，我们可能需要派遣这个人近 200 人。

We need to go bigger.

我们需要做得更大。

So we are storming the office, we called the McDonald's guy again.

所以我们冲进办公室，再次给麦当劳的人打电话。

I was like, "Can we try again next Monday?" And he's like, "Do I only pay for the people I hire?" We're like, "Sure." It's like, "Oh, go ahead and kill yourself on this." It's a pain.

我当时想，“我们可以下周一再试一次吗？”他说：“我只为我雇用的人付钱吗？”我们说：“当然。”就像，“哦，继续吧，然后自杀吧。”很痛苦。

We've been trying all kinds of things for years.

多年来我们一直在尝试各种事情。

Christian Idiodi: Now, we start doubling down our efforts.

Christian Idiodi：现在，我们开始加倍努力。

We start calling back all the people that didn't show up for interviews like, "What's going on?

我们开始给所有没有参加采访的人回电话，比如“发生了什么事？

Did you get lost?

你迷路了吗？

Don't you want a job?

你不想找工作吗？

What's wrong with you?" We start figuring out what portals worked well for us the last time, what wasted our money, what was the cost to acquire a person.

你怎么了？”我们开始弄清楚上次哪些门户网站对我们来说效果很好，哪些门户网站浪费了我们的钱，招募一个人的成本是多少。

And we spend a week doubling our efforts on those channels.

我们花了一周的时间在这些渠道上加倍努力。

We probably have about 120, 130 people on the list.

名单上大概有 120、130 人。

The Sunday beforehand, we start calling them up like, "Please show up.

周日之前，我们开始给他们打电话，比如“请出现。

Don't embarrass us.

别让我们难堪。

Don't you want the job?

你不想要这份工作吗？

Do you need that address?

您需要那个地址吗？

Should I call you a reminder, set your alarm." We're trying all the techniques to try to get more people.

如果我给你打电话提醒，你就定个闹钟吧。”我们正在尝试所有的技术来吸引更多的人。

There we go the next day and at the end of the day he has about forty-five to 50 people.

第二天我们就去那里，一天结束时他的员工大约有 45 到 50 人。

He comes to us, he shakes our hand.

他来到我们身边，与我们握手。

He's like, "Whoa, the quality was excellent.

他说：“哇，质量太棒了。

All my recruiters were engaged.

我所有的招聘人员都参与其中。

The day was smooth," how successful we are.

这一天很顺利，”我们多么成功啊。

Christian Idiodi: He's like, "I want to use you for every new McDonald's I open in the area." Now, I don't know I have a product.

Christian Idiodi：他的意思是，“我想在该地区新开的每一家麦当劳都聘用你。”现在，我不知道我有产品。

I just know I was able to help one person at McDonald's.

我只知道我能够帮助麦当劳的一个人。

But I feel like I have enough learning.

但我觉得我的学习已经够多了。

So I called up my friend at Starbucks and I said, "Hey, man, remember the problem we talked the about?" He's like, "Yeah.

所以我打电话给星巴克的朋友说：“嘿，伙计，还记得我们讨论过的问题吗？”他就像是，“是啊。

I would love to help you solve it." He said, "Oh, okay.

我很乐意帮助你解决这个问题。”他说：“哦，好吧。

What do you have in mind?" I said, "Well, I think we need to send you about 3000 people to interview." He said, "3000 people?

你有什么想法？”我说：“好吧，我想我们需要派大约 3000 人去面试。”他说：“3000人？

I told you I only need 800." I said, in this industry, most people don't show up for interviews, right?

我告诉过你我只需要800。”我说这个行业大多数人都不会去面试吧？

He said, "Oh my goodness.

他说：“天哪。

You know our industry well.

您很了解我们的行业。

I like this.

我喜欢这个。

I'm going to take this up, I think we'll give you this contract." I take my designer, my engineer, we go to San Francisco.

我会处理这个问题，我想我们会给你这份合同。”我带着我的设计师、工程师，我们去旧金山。

We're out there recruiting because this is where it was based.

我们在那里招聘，因为这是它的总部。

We have to get a whole hotel, hire people.

我们必须买一整家酒店，雇人。

We are working all the channels we knew, working in the area.

我们正在利用我们所知道的所有渠道，在该地区开展工作。

Remember, we don't have any software, no technology.

请记住，我们没有任何软件，没有技术。

The designer, we're doing this manually, Excel spreadsheets, phones, emails, in that way.

设计师，我们通过 Excel 电子表格、电话、电子邮件等方式手动完成此操作。

In one week, Starbucks hired 784 people.

一周内，星巴克雇佣了 784 名员工。

I get an email the next Monday morning from the contact at Starbucks.

下周一早上我收到了星巴克联系人发来的电子邮件。

He copied Howard Schultz, then CEO of Starbucks.

他效仿了星巴克时任首席执行官霍华德·舒尔茨(Howard Schultz)。

The email read, "These guys just saved our butts." I sent it to my CEO, but then I said, "You know what?" I only know now I can help on McDonald's and a Starbucks, but that doesn't mean I have a product.

电子邮件中写道：“这些人救了我们的命。”我把它发给了我的首席执行官，但后来我说：“你知道吗？”我现在只知道我可以为麦当劳和星巴克提供帮助，但这并不意味着我有产品。

But I now have enough of problem definition.

但我现在已经有足够的问题定义了。

I reached out to the head of marketing, the head of sales.

我联系了营销主管、销售主管。

I said, "Tell us who has this problem you've come across," because we need to work with more people to try to uncover a solution that is scalable, maintainable, reliable, and works for our business.

我说，“告诉我们谁遇到过这个问题”，因为我们需要与更多的人合作，试图找到一个可扩展、可维护、可靠且适合我们业务的解决方案。

Weirdly enough, the next opportunity we had was the Los Angeles International Airport.

奇怪的是，我们的下一个机会是洛杉矶国际机场。

They were opening up a new terminal and they said, "We need 200 people to manage all the stores in the new terminal." And we were like, "200 people?

他们正在开设一个新航站楼，他们说：“我们需要 200 人来管理新航站楼内的所有商店。”我们当时就想，“200 人？

We just hired close to 800.

我们刚刚招聘了近 800 名员工。

We got this." We go to LA for the briefing with the staffing group and they tell us the people that work at an international airport have to match the demographics of the travelers.

我们得到了这个。”我们前往洛杉矶与人员配置小组进行情况介绍，他们告诉我们在国际机场工作的人员必须与旅客的人口统计特征相匹配。

We say, "Say what?

我们说：“说什么？

Yeah, we have 13% Chinese-speaking travelers, we need 13% Chinese-speaking employees." We say, "Sorry?

是的，我们有 13% 的游客会说中文，我们需要 13% 的员工会说中文。”我们说：“抱歉？

We've got 5% Korean speaking." I mean my team is in LA, we're in Chinatown.

我们有 5% 的人会说韩语。”我的意思是我的团队在洛杉矶，我们在唐人街。

We are speaking, trying to recruit people to come and work in an airport.

我们正在谈论，试图招募人员来机场工作。

If we expect 10 people to show up, only one person shows up.

如果我们预计有 10 人出现，那么只有 1 人出现。

Christian Idiodi: We start calling job seekers up like, "What's going on?" They say, "Do you know what it means to work at an airport?" First, I wake up at five o'clock, I drive to the employee parking lot.

Christian Idiodi：我们开始给求职者打电话，问“发生了什么事？”他们说：“你知道在机场工作意味着什么吗？”首先，我五点钟起床，开车去员工停车场。

I get into a bus.

我上了一辆公共汽车。

Then I go through security.

然后我通过安检。

There was not like TSA pre-check back then.

那时还没有像 TSA 那样的预检查。

Then if I want to break, I go to security again and then you pay me minimum wage.

然后如果我想休息，我会再次去保安，然后你给我最低工资。

It took us close to three months to staff this.

我们花了近三个月的时间来完成这项工作。

We had to negotiate with the union to raise the price to like $15 an hour to attract people.

我们不得不与工会谈判，将价格提高到每小时 15 美元左右，以吸引人们。

When we come back from that, you know what we're saying, that is not our customer.

当我们回来时，你知道我们在说什么，那不是我们的客户。

Never again.

再也不会了。

We are never doing airports.

我们从来不做机场。

That's a pain.

那是一种痛苦。

Christian Idiodi: Around this time, it was the holiday season, so we reached out to the person at Macy's.

Christian Idiodi：大约在这个时候，正值假期，所以我们联系了梅西百货的工作人员。

We told them about our work with McDonald's.

我们告诉他们我们与麦当劳的合作。

They say, "Oh, we'll try this." We started working with them.

他们说：“哦，我们会尝试一下。”我们开始与他们合作。

You can imagine through this, the engineer is thinking, how can I use technology to improve this?

通过这个你可以想象一下，工程师在想，我如何利用技术来改善这个？

I always tell this to people, I never wrote a requirements document, I never wrote a story.

我总是告诉人们这一点，我从来没有写过需求文档，我从来没有写过故事。

So the designer is thinking, how can we improve the end-to-end experience?

那么设计师就在思考，如何才能提升端到端的体验呢？

Okay, we need a recruiter experience, a job seeker experience.

好吧，我们需要招聘人员的经验，求职者的经验。

We had a funnel.

我们有一个漏斗。

We need to build a scheduling tool so that they can scale the interview.

我们需要构建一个安排工具，以便他们能够扩大采访规模。

Oh, what about notification?

哦，通知呢？

Maybe text message.

也许短信。

We can send them a map so that they can know how to get to the...

我们可以给他们发送一张地图，以便他们知道如何到达......

I mean, all of these things, because they were involved from the very beginning in defining the problem, they were immersed in the solution to the problem.

我的意思是，所有这些事情，因为他们从一开始就参与了定义问题，他们沉浸在问题的解决方案中。

It takes us about eight and a half, almost nine months to build this.

我们花了大约八个半月，差不多九个月的时间来建造这个。

When we launched this product in its first 90 days, it booked $32 million in sales.

当我们推出这款产品的前 90 天，它的销售额达到了 3200 万美元。

Christian Idiodi: Why?

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：为什么？

Because you got McDonald's probably until today using this product to open up every new store.

因为麦当劳可能直到今天都使用该产品开设每家新店。

Well, Starbucks went to the global contract.

嗯，星巴克去全球签约了。

We say, " Well, we've only done discovery in the US so I only know where it works in this market." And we started finding, if you look at NASCAR, some of these big sporting events, they have to bring a lot of people together very quickly for a short amount of time.

我们说，“好吧，我们只在美国进行了发现，所以我只知道它在这个市场的哪些地方有效。”我们开始发现，如果你看看 NASCAR，其中一些大型体育赛事，它们必须在短时间内将很多人聚集在一起。

And this is the same kind of product they use to do that high volume hiring in a short amount of time.

这与他们在短时间内进行大量招聘时所使用的产品相同。

If you think about it, I was discovering who had the problem and developing the customers that have the problem.

如果你仔细想想，我正在发现谁有问题并开发有问题的客户。

At the same time, I was discovering and delivering a solution to that problem.

与此同时，我正在发现并提供该问题的解决方案。

Lenny: That's insane.

莱尼：这太疯狂了。

You said you made thirty-something million dollars the first year of launching this thing.

你说推出这个东西的第一年你就赚了三十几万美元。

Lenny: That's unreal.

莱尼：那是不真实的。

I love how this is the epitome of doing things that don't scale.

我喜欢这是做不规模化事情的缩影。

You going hiring McDonald's employees and then Starbucks employees.

你要雇佣麦当劳员工，然后是星巴克员工。

Christian Idiodi: You do things that don't scale and then you do things that do scale.

Christian Idiodi：你先做一些无法规模化的事情，然后再做一些能够规模化的事情。

And it's so powerful when you discover how to do things that don't scale, when you actually know.

当你真正知道如何做一些无法扩展的事情时，它就会变得非常强大。

Because it's the power of technology is just the beauty of what it can do at scale.

因为技术的力量就是它可以大规模发挥作用的美妙之处。

Lenny: And to that point, it's easier said...

莱尼：至此，说起来更容易了……

a lot of people talk about doing things that don't scale.

很多人都在谈论做一些无法规模化的事情。

Many people don't actually do anything like that.

许多人实际上并没有这样做。

They're like, "Nah, let someone else figure that out, or let's just actually think about the future of this versus just doing it and solving and finding problems." I love that also, you didn't do any of these other, the things we talked about.

他们会说，“不，让其他人来解决这个问题，或者让我们真正考虑一下这个问题的未来，而不是只是去做，解决和发现问题。”我也喜欢这一点，你没有做任何其他我们谈论过的事情。

There's no fake door test, there's no opportunity solution trees.

没有假门测试，没有机会解决方案树。

There's no user interview.

没有用户访谈。

You're talking to people.

你正在和人说话。

It wasn't like a user research interview, come sit down, ask questions.

这不像用户研究访谈，坐下来问问题。

Christian Idiodi: I said, there's nothing better in learning how to solve a problem than trying to solve the problem.

Christian Idiodi：我说过，学习如何解决问题没有什么比尝试解决问题更好的了。

You will get all the answers, the research, the failure, the mistakes, all the evidence.

你会得到所有的答案、研究、失败、错误、所有的证据。

You know the difference between what people say, this is what they do.

你知道人们所说的和他们所做的之间的区别。

You'll validate and test.

您将验证和测试。

Because at the end of the day, what is statistically relevant?

因为归根结底，什么是具有统计相关性的？

Solving the problem is the clearest indication that we've solved the problem and that we know how to solve the problem then.

解决问题最清楚地表明我们已经解决了问题并且我们知道如何解决问题。

And so yeah, very powerful technique.

是的，非常强大的技术。

Lenny: And I love that you didn't really know exactly where this was going to lead.

莱尼：我喜欢你并不真正知道这会导致什么结果。

It was just kind of this exploratory, let's see if there's something here.

这只是一种探索性，让我们看看这里是否有什么东西。

And you just kept following this like, huh, there's a problem.

而你只是一直关注这个，就像，嗯，有问题。

It looks like we found a way to solve it.

看起来我们找到了解决这个问题的方法。

Let's just see where else this can take us.

让我们看看这还能带我们去哪里。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Lenny: This time of year is prime for career reflection and setting goals for professional growth.

莱尼：每年的这个时候是职业反思和设定职业发展目标的黄金时间。

I always like to spend this time reflecting on what I accomplished the previous year, what I hope to accomplish the next year, and whether this is the year I look for a new opportunity.

我总是喜欢用这段时间反思我去年完成的事情，我希望明年完成的事情，以及今年是否是我寻找新机会的一年。

That's where today's sponsor, Teal comes in.

这就是今天的赞助商青色登场的地方。

Teal provides you with the tools to run an amazing job search.

Teal 为您提供了出色的求职工具。

With an-

与一个-

Lenny: Teal provides you with the tools to run an amazing job search.

Lenny：Teal 为您提供了出色的求职工具。

With an AI-powered resume builder, job tracker, cover letter generator, and Chrome extension that integrates with over 40 job boards, Teal is the all-in-one platform you need to run a more streamlined and efficient job search and stand out in this competitive market.

Teal 拥有人工智能驱动的简历生成器、职位跟踪器、求职信生成器以及与 40 多个职位委员会集成的 Chrome 扩展程序，是您运行更精简、更高效的职位搜索并在这个竞争激烈的市场中脱颖而出所需的一体化平台。

There's a reason nearly 1 million people have trusted Teal to run their job search.

近 100 万人信任 Teal 来进行求职是有原因的。

If you're thinking of making a change in the new year, leverage Teal to grow your career on your own terms.

如果您想在新的一年做出改变，请利用青色按照自己的方式发展您的职业生涯。

Get started for free at tealhq.com/ lenny.

请访问 tealhq.com/lenny 免费开始使用。

That's tealhq.com/lenny.

这是tealhq.com/lenny。

Lenny: I want to shift to a different topic.

莱尼：我想换个话题。

You spend a lot of time helping product leaders get better at coaching, get better at building relationships, get better at building trust with their teammates.

你花了很多时间帮助产品领导者更好地指导、更好地建立关系、更好地与队友建立信任。

Marty Cagan actually shared this quote with me when he joined, he said that you can build trust with executives and product leaders faster than anyone else he knows, and the people you coach adore him like some kind of rock star.

马蒂·凯根（Marty Cagan）在加入时实际上与我分享了这句话，他说你可以比他认识的其他人更快地与高管和产品负责人建立信任，并且你指导的人像某种摇滚明星一样崇拜他。

Lenny: He's literally on speed dial for several of the CEOs of the largest companies in the world.

莱尼：他确实是世界上最大公司的几位首席执行官的快速拨号用户。

Okay, so let me just ask you, what's your secret to being a great coach, and how can people listening become better coaches to their reports, maybe colleagues?

好吧，让我问你，成为一名优秀教练的秘诀是什么？倾听的人（也许是同事）如何才能成为更好的教练？

Christian Idiodi: This topic is probably near and dear to my heart because, I mean, there are many ways that I think our corporate structures have failed in creating high performance and stability in people, and I think one of them is actually encro of leadership.

Christian Idiodi：这个话题可能是我最关心的话题，因为我认为我们的企业结构在很多方面都未能创造出高绩效和员工稳定性，我认为其中之一实际上是领导力的问题。

And by leadership, the key component I often point to is coaching.

对于领导力，我经常指出的关键要素是辅导。

This idea of what truly is the job of a leader.

这种关于什么是真正的领导者工作的想法。

And I tell people, yeah, it's context and culture at the highest level like, why are we here?

我告诉人们，是的，这是最高层次的背景和文化，比如我们为什么在这里？

Where are we going?

我们要去哪里？

How do we organize ourselves to get there?

我们如何组织自己才能实现这一目标？

What's important?

什么是重要的？

Christian Idiodi: Just kinds of things and the environment in which we do it, but there's a people element because you recognize that you want an outcome and you need people working together to that outcome.

Christian Idiodi：只是我们做事的各种事情和环境，但其中有一个人的因素，因为你认识到你想要一个结果，并且你需要人们共同努力以实现该结果。

So I now have to staff those people and I have to hire and train them and equip them and then appoint them to what those things are.

所以我现在必须为这些人配备人员，我必须雇用和培训他们并装备他们，然后任命他们从事这些工作。

But many of those things are one-off, meaning I create a vision, I create a strategy.

但其中许多事情都是一次性的，这意味着我创造了一个愿景，我制定了一个战略。

I hire a person.

我雇用一个人。

There's something that is every day and that's coaching, that's like the day job of managers.

有一些事情是每天都会发生的，那就是教练，就像经理的日常工作一样。

And if I think about high performing teams in the world, and you can pick sports is one of those, artists, they have coaches and managers like it's an everyday thing.

如果我想到世界上表现出色的团队，你可以选择体育运动就是其中之一，艺术家，他们有教练和经理，就像这是一件日常的事情。

And the idea is that when I explain this to people, I say doing product management is a product manager's job, but getting better at product management is the manager's job, is the coach's job.

我的想法是，当我向人们解释这一点时，我说进行产品管理是产品经理的工作，但在产品管理方面做得更好是经理的工作，是教练的工作。

And people tend to misunderstand how that dynamic works.

人们往往会误解这种动力是如何运作的。

Christian Idiodi: You see, if you are playing a game, you're in the game.

Christian Idiodi：你看，如果你在玩游戏，你就在游戏中。

The coaches are on the sideline watching you play the game and getting you better at playing the game.

教练们会在场边看着你打比赛，并帮助你打得更好。

Your job may be to kick or pass the ball and you need a competence level, but somebody's job is every day looking for ways for you to be better at your job.

你的工作可能是踢球或传球，你需要一定的能力水平，但有人的工作是每天寻找让你更好地完成工作的方法。

Christian Idiodi: The number one reason most people don't give good coaching is because they've never experienced good coaching themselves.

Christian Idiodi：大多数人没有提供良好指导的首要原因是他们自己从未经历过良好的指导。

And most people can only give to other people what has been given to them, what experiences they've seen.

大多数人只能向别人提供他们所得到的、他们所看到的经历。

I was in an executive meeting with a CEO and he gets up in a meeting and he just starts screaming and cursing at everybody, just throwing up And I said, "Whoa, whoa." I said, "Can we talk outside?" They pick him outside.

我正在与一位首席执行官举行高管会议，他在会议上站起来，开始对每个人尖叫和咒骂，然后呕吐，我说，“哇，哇。”我说：“我们可以出去聊聊吗？”他们在外面接他。

I was like, "First of all, I don't even think I can work with you anymore given this environment you're creating, but I need to understand why you are talking to your team like that." And he says to me, he says, "Christian, well my boss used to scream at me like this.

我当时想，“首先，考虑到你正在创造的这种环境，我什至认为我不能再与你合作了，但我需要理解你为什么要这样与你的团队交谈。”他对我说，“克里斯蒂安，我的老板曾经这样对我大喊大叫。

And look at me, I'm now a CEO, I got it, I understand it.

看看我，我现在是首席执行官，我明白，我理解。

They are grownups, they can understand it too."

他们都是成年人了，他们也能理解。”

Christian Idiodi: And I said, "Well, tell me what you're trying to communicate." And he explains it to me and stuff and I said, "Is it okay if I show you an alternative way of communicating that?" He says, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well is it first of all safe for me to do this with the team?" So I go back to the team and I say, "Look, I'm going to try to say what the CEO was trying to say again.

Christian Idiodi：我说，“好吧，告诉我你想传达什么。”他向我解释了这一点，我说：“我可以向你展示另一种沟通方式吗？”他说：“你什么意思？”我说：“首先，我和团队一起做这件事安全吗？”所以我回到团队并说：“听着，我将尝试再说一遍首席执行官想说的话。

He's giving me permission for you to speak freely and candidly, I want your honest opinion as to what was more effective and why." And I took a stab at kind of representing what he was trying to say and I asked the team and it's like, yeah, it's the same thing kind of message, but when he tells us this stuff we just go do it.

他允许你自由、坦诚地发言，我希望你能诚实地发表意见，知道什么更有效以及为什么。”我尝试表达他想说的话，我问了团队，他们说，是的，这是同样的信息，但当他告诉我们这些东西时，我们就去做。

We get it, we go do it.

我们明白了，我们就去做吧。

But the way you described it right now to us, I can think of four other things I need to do.

但按照你现在向我们描述的方式，我可以想到我需要做的其他四件事。

I even understand some other things that may be missing that we need to now go tackle.

我什至了解我们现在需要解决的其他一些可能缺失的事情。

Christian Idiodi: And the CEO is kind of really taken aback and it's kind of in some ways he has never seen an alternative.

Christian Idiodi：首席执行官确实大吃一惊，在某些方面他从未见过其他选择。

And he's never seen if an alternative be effective.

而且他从未见过替代方案是否有效。

Most people need to see something then they need to do it before they can even teach it, in some ways.

大多数人需要看到一些东西，然后他们需要去做，然后才能以某种方式教授它。

Now I'm saying this all because I need to make a very strong argument for people understanding coaching.

现在我之所以这么说，是因为我需要为人们理解教练提出一个非常有力的论据。

And in some ways I probably did not know that I was probably good at coaching.

在某些方面，我可能不知道自己可能擅长执教。

I coached my kids in soccer for eight years and we always won the championship, my boys team and I had long waiting list of people and I thought I had a fundamental flaw in understanding it because when my kids were all four years old, when you have the kids run around the soccer field just kicking the ball any way, my team always had plays, they all have strategy.

我指导我的孩子们踢足球八年了，我们总是赢得冠军，我的男孩队和我都有很长的等待名单，我认为我在理解这一点上有一个根本性的缺陷，因为当我的孩子们四岁的时候，当你让孩子们在足球场上跑来跑去，以任何方式踢球时，我的球队总是有比赛，他们都有策略。

Christian Idiodi: So winning games like 10 to zero, other kids, I thought I'm like, maybe I was born in another country.

Christian Idiodi：所以赢得像 10 比 0 这样的比赛，其他孩子，我想，也许我出生在另一个国家。

I didn't know you were just meant to let them play.

我不知道你只是想让他们玩。

And I was really coaching kids and I was treating four-year-olds like adults.

我实际上是在指导孩子们，我像对待成年人一样对待四岁的孩子。

We're watching video, watching tape, having real...

我们正在看视频、看磁带、有真实的……

But it was so funny when you see them execute on the field.

但当你看到他们在场上执行时，真是太有趣了。

But I've kind of always had this mentality about the truest forms like companies cannot care for people, people care for people.

但我一直对最真实的形式抱有这样的心态，比如公司不能关心人，而是人关心人。

And the representation of what is acceptable in an environment or what we do is by the leaders.

环境中可接受的内容或我们所做的事情是由领导者代表的。

Now there's some different dynamic to why that's not happening with how we promote people and the whole poor structure around that.

现在有一些不同的动力来解释为什么我们如何晋升人员以及围绕它的整个糟糕的结构没有发生这种情况。

But fundamentally, trust is a key part of doing this.

但从根本上来说，信任是做到这一点的关键部分。

And I think when I tell these people, I say, "Look, most people don't know that you know something until they test you."

我想当我告诉这些人时，我会说，“看，大多数人在测试你之前都不知道你知道一些事情。”

Christian Idiodi: We do it a whole lot in our environment.

Christian Idiodi：我们在我们的环境中经常这样做。

I ask you a question, I see how you answer and it's like I might ask you what's one plus one?

我问你一个问题，我看你如何回答，就像我可能会问你一加一是多少？

It's two and now I know that one plus one is two.

是二，现在我知道一加一等于二。

I don't care when you learned it.

我不在乎你什么时候学会的。

I need you to know that it's two to do my work.

我需要你知道我的工作需要两个人来完成。

So it happens in everyday environment and what people fail to do is to do the learning so they get the question wrong and they lose trust.

因此，这种情况发生在日常环境中，而人们未能做的就是进行学习，因此他们会回答错误的问题并失去信任。

And trust is based on competence and character, there are other values like communication and concern and care, but most corporate environments, it's a competency thing.

信任是基于能力和品格，还有其他价值观，如沟通、关心和照顾，但在大多数企业环境中，这是一个能力问题。

That's why you see so many companies accept people with bad communication, bad care, because they're very good at their job.

这就是为什么你会看到这么多公司接受沟通不善、照顾不好的人，因为他们非常擅长自己的工作。

So if you can demonstrate competence, you will earn some trust, at least the trust of competence from people.

因此，如果你能够表现出能力，你就会赢得一些信任，至少是人们对能力的信任。

Christian Idiodi: So I kind of explained to people a whole lot that the real core of their job at first is to learn, to seek to understand before they are understood, to know what you don't know.

Christian Idiodi：所以我向人们解释了很多，他们工作的真正核心首先是学习，在被理解之前寻求理解，知道你不知道的东西。

That humility and ego only last a small minute.

这种谦卑和自我只能持续一小分钟。

The most powerful way I have found to get trust with many people is to have them accountable for an outcome of mine, which is to know.

我发现获得许多人信任的最有效方法是让他们对我的结果负责，即了解。

So if I wanted to accelerate trust with Lenny, I will ask Lenny to teach me.

因此，如果我想加速与莱尼的信任，我会请莱尼来教我。

And I see this like an emotional intelligence, black belt technique here, but many environments, if you get into environment, it's very quickly for you to identify the power in that environment.

我认为这就像情商、黑带技术，但是在很多环境中，如果你进入环境，你很快就能识别出该环境中的力量。

Who is influential?

谁有影响力？

Who has loudest voice and all?

谁的声音最大？

And there's something behind why they're powerful.

他们如此强大背后有一些原因。

Yes it is title, but if you think about why someone is called a CEO, it's because there's some competence that made someone give them the title, they are great at growing businesses, they have a good stride, whatever it is.

是的，这是头衔，但如果你想一想为什么有人被称为首席执行官，那是因为有一些能力让某人授予他们这个头衔，他们擅长发展业务，他们有很大的进步，无论是什么。

Christian Idiodi: So what you do to build trust is you want that person to trust you.

Christian Idiodi：因此，为了建立信任，你要做的就是希望那个人信任你。

Okay.

好的。

But the only way that person will know that they trust you is if they test you.

但那个人知道他们信任你的唯一方法就是测试你。

And unfortunately many environments they do that publicly.

不幸的是，许多环境他们公开这样做。

I'm in a meeting, I ask Lenny a question.

我正在开会，我问莱尼一个问题。

He bumps a presentation like, oh, product managers are useless.

他在演讲中提到，哦，产品经理没用。

That person doesn't know anything.

那个人什么都不知道。

So here's what I do when I want to build trust, if Lenny's a new hire in my company, I take Lenny to the loudest, most influential person in the company.

因此，当我想要建立信任时，我会这样做，如果莱尼是我公司的新员工，我会带莱尼去见公司中最响亮、最有影响力的人。

And I say, "Look, I just hired Lenny.

我说：“听着，我刚刚雇用了莱尼。

Super rockstar, did all of this.

超级摇滚明星，做到了这一切。

But he knows nothing about that business, nothing about how we work and stuff.

但他对这项业务一无所知，对我们的工作方式和其他事情一无所知。

I will love for you to teach him some things." Now he may be like, "I'm super busy, I'm involved."

我希望你能教他一些东西。”现在他可能会说，“我超级忙，我很忙。”

Christian Idiodi: I say, "Look, Lenny should just hang with you.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：我说，“听着，莱尼应该和你在一起。

I've played his calendar for the whole week.

我整整一周都在看他的日历。

He's just got to sit in meetings you are, quiet, observe, just by observing you, he will be a rockstar.

他只需坐在你开的会议上，安静地观察，只要观察你，他就会成为摇滚明星。

No stress, nothing to give." Now it's impossible for this leader to sit with you for a whole week without saying things like, "So Lenny, where are you from?

没有压力，没有什么可给予的。”现在，这位领导者不可能与你坐在一起整整一个星期而不说这样的话：“那么莱尼，你来自哪里？

What do you do?

你做什么？

Tell me about yourself." What have I now done?

告诉我关于你自己的事。”我现在做了什么？

I forced a relationship between a very powerful, trustworthy, influential person and somebody else that doesn't have it.

我强迫一个非常有权势、值得信赖、有影响力的人和其他没有这种关系的人建立关系。

If you are walking around the company with this person, what is everybody going to say?

如果你和这个人在公司里走来走去，每个人都会说什么？

Oh my goodness, you're friends with that person.

天哪，你是那个人的朋友。

I want to know Lenny because we can never get him to agree on it.

我想了解莱尼，因为我们永远无法让他同意。

So if I know Lenny, I'll be close with it.

所以如果我认识莱尼，我就会和它很亲近。

Lenny is more accessible, he's new, but how did Lenny break in?

莱尼更容易接近，他是新人，但莱尼是如何闯入的呢？

I'm extending somebody else's trust to you.

我正在向你表达别人的信任。

Now by also making that person share in the accountability of training you or teaching you, in some ways, I am now making them accountable for your growth.

现在，通过让那个人分担培训你或教导你的责任，在某些方面，我现在让他们对你的成长负责。

It's impossible two months from now for that person to say, "Oh, Lenny doesn't do anything." Why?

从现在起两个月后，那个人不可能说：“哦，莱尼什么也没做。”为什么？

Because it makes them a bad teacher.

因为这使他们成为一个糟糕的老师。

So they're always going to be friendly, be like, "Oh yeah, Lenny, let's have a conversation.

所以他们总是会很友好，就像，“哦，是的，莱尼，我们来谈谈吧。

Don't do it like this in this way." They will prep you because it makes them look bad if you're not competent.

不要这样做。”他们会为你做好准备，因为如果你没有能力，这会让他们看起来很糟糕。

Now, this technique accelerates relationships and trust.

现在，这项技术可以促进关系和信任。

It's the help me teach me type of technique.

它帮助我教我一种技术。

It also allows them to observe the dynamics within the company, but it accelerates relationships because it's impossible for you to be in a meeting with a leader all the time without the person saying something like, "Oh yeah, hey folks, let me introduce you to Lenny."

它还可以让他们观察公司内部的动态，但它可以加速人际关系，因为你不可能一直在与领导者开会，而对方不会说“哦，嘿，伙计们，让我把你介绍给莱尼。”

Christian Idiodi: Now that person is now the one introducing you to more connections within the company.

Christian Idiodi：现在这个人就是向你介绍公司内部更多人脉的人。

Fastest way to build is, now feels like it's a expense but this is the job of a coach.

最快的构建方式是，现在感觉这是一笔开支，但这是教练的工作。

You are designing a very specific playbook to help people achieve the outcomes reward and that's by getting them competent at their job and then their potential where they need to go next.

您正在设计一个非常具体的剧本来帮助人们实现成果奖励，即让他们胜任自己的工作，然后发挥他们下一步需要发展的潜力。

Lenny: That are some Jedi ninja tricks right there.

莱尼：这就是绝地忍者的一些技巧。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

I've never heard this advice before.

我以前从未听过这个建议。

Makes so much sense and it's so easy to implement.

非常有意义，而且很容易实现。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

For someone that maybe doesn't have a Christian around as a coach or a manager that isn't at this level, what advice do you give people that are looking for a coach or someone that could help them along these lines to learn to build trust and learn to just generally improve?

对于那些可能没有基督徒作为教练或经理的人来说，他们没有达到这个级别，对于那些正在寻找教练或可以帮助他们学习建立信任并学习总体改进的人，您有什么建议？

Christian Idiodi: Boy, like I say with everything, you don't get mastery by avoidance.

Christian Idiodi：男孩，就像我对所有事情所说的那样，你无法通过回避来掌握。

And one of the things that good coaches do that when I say corporations fail companies is they don't create space for practice.

当我说企业失败时，优秀教练所做的事情之一就是他们不创造练习空间。

I see people complain to me about people all the time, oh this person is not good.

我总是看到有人向我抱怨人，哦这个人不好。

They presented this, it was terrible.

他们提出了这个，太可怕了。

And I ask them, "What did they do at practice?" They say, "What do you mean?" I say, "When they were practicing this, what did they do?" Say, "Well, they didn't practice.

我问他们，“他们在训练中做了什么？”他们说：“你什么意思？”我说：“当他们练习这个的时候，他们做了什么？”说：“好吧，他们没有练习。

I told them to prepare this." I say, "Think about what happens at practice.

我告诉他们准备这个。”我说，“想想练习时会发生什么。

Any practice of any sport, any game.

任何运动、任何比赛的任何练习。

You can stop.

你可以停下来。

You can make corrections, you can give feedback.

您可以进行更正，您可以提供反馈。

What you do at practice, you do in the game.

你在训练中所做的，你在比赛中也会做。

Product management is a one time, game time kind of role.

产品管理是一种一次性的、游戏时间的角色。

So when do people practice?"

那么人们什么时候练习呢？”

Christian Idiodi: And so what I tell people in the absence of getting good coaching, you need to find practice arenas.

Christian Idiodi：所以我告诉人们，在没有得到好的教练的情况下，你需要找到练习场。

It's kind of like if you are learning a new sport or basketball, you kind go to the gym.

这有点像如果你正在学习一项新的运动或篮球，你就会去健身房。

It's a practice arena.

这是一个练习场。

You can play and shoot around and let maybe some people have pickup games that you join and stuff like this in some ways.

你可以到处玩、射击，也许有些人可以参加你参加的临时游戏，或者以某种方式进行类似的事情。

And so I always advise product managers like, you need to join a lot of pickup games, which they are low barriers to entry, low evaluation reward, loan risk type of thing.

所以我总是建议产品经理，你需要加入很多皮卡游戏，这些游戏的进入门槛低，评价奖励低，贷款风险大。

Go volunteer at a non-profit working with the team, go volunteer in your community event or church or whatever you go to, go party.

与团队一起在非营利组织做志愿者，在社区活动或教堂或任何你去的地方做志愿者，参加聚会。

But now what am I trying to do with these things?

但现在我想用这些东西做什么呢？

Find places where people do collaborative problem solving.

寻找人们协作解决问题的地方。

That is what you're doing as a product team.

这就是你作为产品团队正在做的事情。

Christian Idiodi: It's more likely in a high performance environment you'll find a good coach.

Christian Idiodi：在高绩效环境中你更有可能找到一位好教练。

You'll find somebody out there but what you're also doing is you're observing other people play.

你会发现有人在那里，但你也在做的就是观察其他人打球。

Most people learn a lot of skills by, you watch TV like, oh I like that move.

大多数人通过看电视来学习很多技能，哦，我喜欢那个动作。

And then you go to the gym and you practice that move, you see what you do?

然后你去健身房练习那个动作，你知道你做了什么吗？

So it's like you're seeing then you're doing it in some ways.

所以就像你看到你正在以某种方式做这件事一样。

So you need to see good product work so that you can do good product work so that you can teach good product work.

所以你需要看到好的产品工作，这样你才能做好产品工作，这样你才能教授好的产品工作。

So if you don't have the benefit of having a good coach directly, you've got to find environments where you see good coaching happening and a good indication of good coaching is actually good outcomes over and over again.

因此，如果你没有直接拥有一位好教练的好处，你就必须找到一个可以看到良好教练发生的环境，并且良好教练的良好迹象实际上是一次又一次的良好结果。

Winning teams, winning performances, great products, great products come from great product teams.

获胜的团队，获胜的表现，伟大的产品，伟大的产品来自伟大的产品团队。

They probably have good leaders or a good leader within a bad culture.

他们可能有优秀的领导者，或者在糟糕的文化中拥有优秀的领导者。

Lenny: So essentially it's get a bunch of reps in is a big part of this advice.

莱尼：所以本质上来说，让一群代表参与进来是这个建议的重要组成部分。

Just get reps in and I think what you just said is such an important part of it is collaborative problem solving is the key thing to look for.

只要让代表进来，我认为你刚才所说的非常重要，协作解决问题是要寻找的关键。

I was going to ask you how you recommend people get into product management.

我想问你如何建议人们进入产品管理。

I imagine this is a very similar answer, it's just find opportunities to collaboratively problem solve.

我想这是一个非常相似的答案，只是寻找合作解决问题的机会。

Christian Idiodi: That's right.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：没错。

And I differentiate that because there are all those guys that are the, I know I like to change a light bulb or they can walk individually or thinker and stuff and I kind of differentiate that problem solving from the people that are very good at working with other people to solve a problem.

我之所以区分这一点，是因为我知道我喜欢更换灯泡，或者他们可以单独行走或思考者之类的东西，我将解决问题的方式与那些非常擅长与其他人合作解决问题的人区分开来。

And there are so many of those pockets, you're getting reps.

而且这些口袋有很多，你会得到代表。

You've heard those who that just tell you stories of them working problem and I can see how they will help me.

你听说过那些只是告诉你他们工作问题的故事的人，我可以看到他们将如何帮助我。

They know how to use data, they know how to use insights.

他们知道如何使用数据，他们知道如何使用洞察力。

They're not afraid of talking to people.

他们不害怕与人交谈。

How are you going to get those reps?

您将如何获得这些代表？

Because you come into my company I ask you a question like, oh, I really don't know where do I find?

因为你来到我的公司，我会问你这样的问题，哦，我真的不知道在哪里可以找到？

But if you've done the problem solve with a team, sometimes you may not even know how to get the answer, but you know who to go to get the answer.

但如果你和一个团队一起解决问题，有时你甚至可能不知道如何得到答案，但你知道该去找谁来得到答案。

That's a gift too.

这也是一份礼物。

Lenny: I love that so much of your advice comes back to being the person that knows the most or has learned the most or even looking like they're spending the time to learn the most, which makes so much sense.

莱尼：我喜欢你的很多建议都回到了成为最了解或学到最多的人，甚至看起来他们花时间学习最多的人，这很有意义。

The people you want to entrust are the people that happen to have the answers.

你想要委托的人是那些恰好有答案的人。

Lenny: And each person will know.

莱尼：每个人都会知道。

Yeah, it just makes sense.

是的，这很有道理。

Something else you talk about is people getting promoted too early.

你谈论的另一件事是人们晋升得太早。

Leaders getting promoted too early, not doing well, they end up blaming others when really they were not actually ready for this new position.

领导者提拔得太早，表现不佳，最终会指责他人，而实际上他们实际上还没有准备好担任这个新职位。

Can you talk about why you think that happens and then just how maybe as that person that might be in that position right now feeling like, oh, shit, maybe it's not my fault.

你能谈谈你认为为什么会发生这种情况吗？然后，也许那个人现在可能会感觉，哦，该死，也许这不是我的错。

Christian Idiodi: I don't know how to make an appeal to corporations on this one.

Christian Idiodi：我不知道如何在这一问题上向企业发出呼吁。

It's a similar appeal in the light of coaching too as well.

从教练的角度来看，这也是类似的吸引力。

Most people are promoted to a point of incompetency or so, but I kind describe the dynamic this way.

大多数人都会被提升到无法胜任的程度，但我是这样描述这种动态的。

It's kind of like Lenny is a fantastic engineer.

这有点像莱尼是一位出色的工程师。

If you think about it, he wins engineer of the year awards.

如果你仔细想想，他赢得了年度工程师奖。

If you go to the office, his picture is on the wall, everybody knows him.

如果你去办公室，他的照片挂在墙上，每个人都认识他。

He's feeling good.

他感觉很好。

But it's like one year, two years, maybe eight years in Lenny's feeling like, am I really growing in my career?

但莱尼感觉好像一年，两年，也许八年，我的职业生涯真的在成长吗？

Am I really challenged in my career?

我的职业生涯真的面临挑战吗？

He looks at the engineering career ladder.

他着眼于工程职业阶梯。

The next role from his senior engineer role is engineering manager.

他的高级工程师角色的下一个角色是工程经理。

The leadership team, HR, they look at the same thing.

领导团队、人力资源部门，他们都看同样的事情。

That's true.

确实如此。

We love Lenny.

我们爱莱尼。

We don't want to lose Lenny, we need to promote him.

我们不想失去莱尼，我们需要提升他。

Christian Idiodi: And the next step is engineering manager or product manager, manager, however, I want to use the rule here.

Christian Idiodi：下一步是工程经理或产品经理、经理，但是，我想在这里使用这个规则。

And so, we do what?

那么，我们做什么呢？

We promote Lenny.

我们宣传莱尼。

It feels good at the moment.

此刻感觉很好。

Yeah!

是啊！

Congratulations on your promotion.

恭喜您晋升。

He posts a nice post.

他发表了一篇很好的帖子。

We are like, "Yeah, we're going to keep Lenny there for long time now because he's promoted." Now, Lenny has never been a manager in his whole life.

我们会说，“是的，我们要把莱尼留在那里很长时间，因为他升职了。”现在，莱尼一生都没有当过经理。

He's never interviewed people, fired people, didn't even coach people or had done any of those things directly.

他从来没有采访过人，解雇过人，甚至没有指导过人，也没有直接做过任何这些事情。

After a couple of months, Lenny starts to recognize an interesting pattern.

几个月后，莱尼开始认识到一个有趣的模式。

Nobody's clapping for him at company meetings anymore.

再也没有人在公司会议上为他鼓掌了。

And sure they've taken down his picture from the world because he's no longer an engineer, he's a manager.

当然，他们已经从世界上撤下了他的照片，因为他不再是一名工程师，他是一名经理。

So somebody else is now the engineer of the year, they are clapping for him in meetings.

所以现在有人成为了年度工程师，他们在会议上为他鼓掌。

He's like, he doesn't feel recognized or seen anymore.

他感觉自己不再被认可或被看见了。

He's just a guy now behind the scenes and that kind of thing.

他现在只是幕后的一个人而已。

Christian Idiodi: Then in a couple of weeks go by, then they have a big engineering problem.

Christian Idiodi：几周后，他们遇到了一个很大的工程问题。

And you know what Lenny does?

你知道莱尼是做什么的吗？

He jumps in and he solves the problem.

他跳进去解决了问题。

Lenny did not recognize that his job has changed.

莱尼没有意识到他的工作已经发生了变化。

His job is no longer to solve the problem directly, but to get a team of other people good at solving problems.

他的工作不再是直接解决问题，而是组建一支由善于解决问题的人组成的团队。

This is because you're a great engineer but not a good manager.

这是因为你是一名出色的工程师，但不是一名优秀的经理。

This story or this dynamic I've told is probably the most common origin story of what people see or deem as micromanagement.

我讲述的这个故事或动态可能是人们所看到或认为的微观管理最常见的起源故事。

In many cases here, this individual knows how to do engineering.

在许多情况下，这个人知道如何进行工程设计。

They don't know how to do engineering management.

他们不知道如何进行工程管理。

They don't see the shift in their dynamic being changed.

他们没有看到自己的动态发生了变化。

We see back patterns where it's like the second you become a manager or a leader, you cannot say things like, I don't know.

我们看到了一些模式，就像当你成为经理或领导者时，你不能说“我不知道”之类的话。

I'm not sure, I need help.

我不确定，我需要帮助。

Who told us those things?

谁告诉我们这些事情的？

But it's like such an expectation that our leaders must have the answers, must know the right things, must do the right things.

但这就像这样一种期望，即我们的领导人必须有答案，必须知道正确的事情，必须做正确的事情。

Christian Idiodi: And so what do we see people do?

Christian Idiodi：那么我们看到人们在做什么呢？

Rather than Lenny asks for help, he goes to Google and searches how to do an interview, how to write a review.

莱尼没有寻求帮助，而是去谷歌搜索如何进行采访、如何撰写评论。

Are you seeing?

你看见了吗？

He reads different articles like this one looks cool and then he does it and nobody dies.

他读了不同的文章，比如这篇看起来很酷，然后他就这么做了，没有人死。

Nothing breaks so he thinks there's a good framework and a good pattern.

没有任何问题，所以他认为有一个好的框架和好的模式。

And we have this dysfunctional culture of everybody doing different things, whatever works for anybody and that is the cycle that repeats itself.

我们有一种功能失调的文化，每个人都做不同的事情，无论对任何人都有效，这就是一个不断重复的循环。

Now, a person that works for Lenny sees that he used this framework and thinks it must be a good framework, my boss did it, and you see how that cycle repeats itself?

现在，一个为 Lenny 工作的人看到他使用了这个框架，并认为它一定是一个很好的框架，我的老板做到了，你看到这个循环是如何重复的吗？

Because Lenny didn't actually get coached to be a manager.

因为莱尼实际上并没有接受过教练培训。

If you ask anybody that works with me, if come to me and say, "Oh, I need to get promoted to be a director." You know what I say?

如果你问任何与我一起工作的人，如果他来对我说：“哦，我需要晋升为导演。”你知道我说什么吗？

I say, "Go be a director.

我说：“去当导演吧。

You don't need a title.

你不需要标题。

Let me tell you what a director does.

让我告诉你导演是做什么的。

And you're going to work with me over the next couple of months to do those things because I am promoting you to do the job, not to learn the job." You see where it falls apart in promotions?

在接下来的几个月里，你将和我一起做这些事情，因为我晋升你是为了做这份工作，而不是为了学习这份工作。”你看到它在晋升中失败的地方了吗？

We promote people and it's like you're now a VP, do VP things.

我们提拔员工，就像你现在是副总裁一样，做副总裁的事情。

And you're like, I have never done VP things before, but I cannot tell people I've never done VP things because it makes me look incompetent, but I see the job description.

你会说，我以前从未做过副总裁的事情，但我不能告诉人们我从未做过副总裁的事情，因为这让我看起来不称职，但我看到了职位描述。

I should do some VP things.

我应该做一些副总裁的事情。

What did my last VP do?

我的上一位副总裁做了什么？

Those things and those.

那些事那些事。

How you say?

你说怎么样？

But the best place to learn how to be a VP is when you're not a VP because that's where you practice being a VP.

但学习如何成为副总裁的最佳地点是当你还不是副总裁时，因为那是你练习成为副总裁的地方。

Christian Idiodi: That's where you get feedback on because then when you become a VP, you have done those things before.

Christian Idiodi：这就是你获得反馈的地方，因为当你成为副总裁时，你以前就做过这些事情。

It's like why is the first time you've done an interview when you're now a VP?

就像你现在是副总裁时为什么第一次接受采访一样？

Come in and do an interview with me, observe me do an interview, ask questions, see what works, get feedback.

进来接受我的采访，观察我的采访，提出问题，看看什么有效，获得反馈。

That's why I love those group product manager roles because those are actually meant to be designed as ways for people to make a decision if they want to be a manager or they want to just stay in the discipline, but people use them as why would you give somebody four direct reports if no evidence, they can manage one?

这就是为什么我喜欢这些团队产品经理的角色，因为这些实际上是为了让人们做出决定，如果他们想成为一名经理，或者他们只想留在这个领域，但人们用它们来解释为什么你会给某人四个直接报告，如果没有证据，他们可以管理一个？

So what I do is I give you one, you might tell me, I hate people.

所以我所做的就是给你一个，你可能会告诉我，我讨厌人。

That's okay, we can talk about that.

没关系，我们可以讨论这个。

But it's like, let me give you four and you're just going to practice the bad behavior on four.

但这就像，让我给你四个，你只需在四个上练习不良行为。

Christian Idiodi: So this is what often happens in company.

Christian Idiodi：这就是公司里经常发生的事情。

We promote them into incompetence.

我们将他们提升为无能。

It's not their fault because we are not coaching them.

这不是他们的错，因为我们没有指导他们。

What we need to do is create a safe environment for people to practice leadership before they become leaders, before we promote them.

我们需要做的是，在人们成为领导者之前、在我们提拔他们之前，为他们创造一个安全的领导环境。

We have to have good coaching programs for leaders to say, if there's a succession plan, I want Lenny to be a new manager.

我们必须有良好的指导计划，让领导者能够说，如果有继任计划，我希望莱尼成为一名新经理。

I don't wait till it's time to promote him then I teach him management because then apparently he cannot say things like, I don't know.

我不会等到晋升他的时候才教他管理，因为显然他不能说“我不知道”之类的话。

I have to teach him leadership and management before he becomes a leader or a manager.

在他成为领导者或经理之前，我必须教他领导和管理。

Lenny: I love this idea of just doing VP things.

Lenny：我喜欢只做副总裁事情的想法。

I just picture someone walking around and, I'm doing VP things.

我只是想象有人走来走去，而我正在做副总裁的事情。

Christian Idiodi: I'm doing VP things.

Christian Idiodi：我正在做副总裁的事情。

All the time, I see them live, but what's a VP thing?

我一直都在现场观看他们，但是 VP 是什么？

Lenny: I'm doing VP things.

莱尼：我正在做副总裁的事情。

I think another added benefit of doing these things before you say you're VP is that is the best way to get promoted to a VP is you are already doing the job.

我认为在你成为副总裁之前做这些事情的另一个好处是，这是晋升副总裁的最佳方式，因为你已经在做这份工作了。

Christian Idiodi: That's right.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：没错。

And nobody bites you on it.

而且没有人会咬你。

You see that?

你看到了吗？

And you're not even surprised by it and it's very safe because when you're not in the job, you can make mistakes and nobody blames you.

你甚至不会对此感到惊讶，而且它非常安全，因为当你不在工作中时，你可能会犯错误，而且没有人会责怪你。

He's not a VP, look at him trying to do VP things.

他不是副总裁，看看他试图做副总裁的事情。

You see?

你看到了吗？

But the second you're a VP, there's so much leverage in the role that your mistake is serious because it impacts everybody.

但一旦你成为副总裁，这个角色就具有很大的影响力，你的错误会很严重，因为它会影响到每个人。

But when you're not, it's like you get coverage, you get protection, nobody's as mad at you.

但当你不这样做时，就像你得到了保险，你得到了保护，没有人对你生气。

It's like, yeah, he was just trying to take a stab at it.

就好像，是的，他只是想尝试一下。

Let's coach him on that.

让我们在这方面指导他。

But what is the best time to know those things?

但了解这些事情的最佳时间是什么时候呢？

It's before you're in it.

这是在你进入其中之前。

Before you're in it

在你参与其中之前

Lenny: To give companies and leaders something to do with this advice, you talk about helping them train and practice before they do this.

莱尼：为了给公司和领导者提供一些与此建议相关的内容，您谈到在他们这样做之前帮助他们进行培训和练习。

How did you do that?

你是怎么做到的？

I don't know, is it work with Silicon Valley Product Group to help train and coach?

我不知道，是否与硅谷产品组合作，帮助培训和辅导？

Christian Idiodi: There are many great product coaches out there.

Christian Idiodi：有很多优秀的产品教练。

There are many leadership coaches out there.

那里有很多领导力教练。

I think there's some recognition.

我觉得还是有一定的认可度的

People have to have the humility and the self-awareness to recognize that there are opportunities for them to get better as a leader and product management, you need to see or experience, good leadership, you need the reps of good leadership and we do it in everyway.

人们必须有谦逊和自我意识，认识到他们有机会成为更好的领导者和产品管理人员，你需要看到或体验良好的领导力，你需要良好领导力的代表，我们在各个方面都这样做。

You probably talk to people about strategy and what did they do?

您可能会与人们谈论战略以及他们做了什么？

They outsource it all the time.

他们一直将其外包。

Tell somebody else to do it, and that cycle feeds itself because you never do it.

告诉别人这样做，这个循环就会自行发展，因为你从来不这样做。

You only know how to outsource it.

你只知道如何外包它。

You never learn how to do it.

你永远学不会如何去做。

You see?

你看到了吗？

And so many people outsource, oh, go get a mentor, go take a training class, and they'll think that they're outsourcing coaching in that way.

很多人外包，哦，去找导师，去参加培训班，他们会认为他们是以这种方式外包教练的。

It's like go take a communication.

就像去进行沟通一样。

Christian Idiodi: Sourcing coaching in that way.

Christian Idiodi：以这种方式寻找教练。

It's like, " .

就像，“。

Go take a communication class." I'm like, "Okay." They come back from the class, and they punch you in the face.

去上沟通课。”我说，“好吧。”他们从课上回来，就打你的脸。

I'm like, "Why did you punch me?" "The class taught me to punch you in the face.

我说：“你为什么打我？” “课堂上我教我打你的脸。

You paid money for me to learn how to punch you in the face." I say, go to the communication class with the employee because they're going to need to practice the communication.

你付钱让我学习如何打你的脸。”我说，和员工一起去参加沟通课程，因为他们需要练习沟通。

Christian Idiodi: You learn what they're learning.

Christian Idiodi：你学到了他们学到的东西。

Both of you now will practice it together, so that they can get better at communication.

你们现在就一起练习一下，这样他们就能更好地沟通。

A communication class doesn't get you better at communication.

沟通课程并不能让你更好地沟通。

Communicating better is an indication that you're better at communication.

更好的沟通表明你更擅长沟通。

You need to practice it.

你需要练习它。

And I need to create a safe place for you to practice, I need to give you feedback that you're communicating better.

我需要为你创造一个安全的练习场所，我需要给你反馈，表明你的沟通能力更好了。

These are all patterns in coaching that many leaders just don't have these tools and techniques to do it.

这些都是教练模式，许多领导者只是没有这些工具和技术来做到这一点。

Christian Idiodi: I do teach a lot of leaders how to coach.

Christian Idiodi：我确实教过很多领导者如何执教。

I do a lot of people work with leaders.

我确实有很多人与领导者一起工作。

There's not a singular product problem.

不存在单一的产品问题。

People here me say, "All problems are people problems." There's not a singular problem that I have not seen coaching address.

我这里的人说：“所有问题都是人的问题。”我没有看到教练解决过任何单一问题。

Lenny: What I hear is essentially the biggest burden is on the manager to be a great coach to their reports, and for a manager to get good at this, essentially a coach is a really good method.

莱尼：我听到的本质上最大的负担是经理要成为他们报告中的出色教练，而对于经理来说，要擅长这一点，本质上教练是一个非常好的方法。

Bring someone in that could work with you one-on-one on a lot of these things.

找一个可以在很多事情上与你一对一合作的人。

Awesome.

太棒了。

That's very actionable, very solvable.

这是非常可行的，非常可以解决的。

Lenny: Everyone's always going to ask, "How do I find an awesome coach?" Difficult, I guess.

莱尼：每个人总是会问，“我怎样才能找到一位很棒的教练？”我想，很难。

I don't know.

我不知道。

What do you tell people to go find a coach?

你怎么告诉人们去寻找教练？

Is there anything you could recommend, just how to go find a coach?

有什么可以推荐的吗，比如如何去找教练？

Christian Idiodi: You've got to find people that have generated good outcomes.

Christian Idiodi：你必须找到能够产生良好成果的人。

People are always like, "How do you find a good consultant?" I get people teaching people a lot that haven't done the job.

人们总是会问，“你如何找到一个好的顾问？”我让人们教了很多没有完成这项工作的人。

Don't get me wrong.

别误会我的意思。

If you look at American football teams, there are some coaches that have played the game before, and you feel good that they can coach you.

如果你看看美国橄榄球队，有一些教练以前参加过这项比赛，你会因为他们能够执教你而感到高兴。

And there are also some coaches that have not played the game, but if you look at the pedigree, they've learned from good coaches, they've worked under good coaches.

还有一些教练没有打过比赛，但是如果你看看血统，他们向优秀的教练学习，他们在优秀的教练手下工作过。

Christian Idiodi: Same thing with product.

Christian Idiodi：产品也是如此。

I say there are only two parts.

我说只有两部分。

A good coach is someone that has played the game before and has generated good outcomes, and the second is that they've learned from good product coaches.

一个好的教练是一个以前玩过这个游戏并产生了良好结果的人，第二个是他们向好的产品教练学习。

You want to find people with a strong pedigree.

您想找到具有强大血统的人。

You see , and you, "Oh, you worked at Amazon this year," or "You worked at this company," or "You worked at Stripe.

你看，你，“哦，你今年在亚马逊工作”，或者“你在这家公司工作”，或者“你在 Stripe 工作。

good results.

良好的结果。

How did you do that?"

你是怎么做到的？”

Christian Idiodi: "Oh, my environment was great.

Christian Idiodi：“哦，我的环境很棒。

The culture was great." "Who taught you?

这里的文化很棒。” “谁教你的？

Who coached you?" Do pick-up games with the people that they coached.

谁指导了你？”与他们指导的人进行临时比赛。

They will tell you what patterns their coach told them.

他们会告诉你他们的教练告诉他们的模式。

How do you do that?

你是怎么做到的？

My coach told me to do this, and you're going to learn from them.

我的教练告诉我这样做，你会向他们学习。

I say, "Oh." Important things.

我说：“哦。”重要的事情。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Final area I want to spend a little time on is the work you do in Africa.

我想花一点时间讨论的最后一个领域是你们在非洲所做的工作。

Marty said that you're the foremost expert in introducing product and technology into world's developing countries.

马蒂说，您是将产品和技术引入世界发展中国家的最重要的专家。

I know you spend a lot of time in Africa specifically.

我知道您在非洲度过了很多时间。

Can you just talk about the work you do there and also just maybe the opportunities and challenges you run into when you're working with folks there?

您能谈谈您在那里所做的工作以及与那里的人们一起工作时遇到的机遇和挑战吗？

Christian Idiodi: Yeah.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：是的。

I have an African background, and my family is there, and I used to have this false notion that the things we've done in North America or Europe or Asia, the problems we've solved, have been solved in these markets.

我有非洲背景，我的家人在那里，我曾经有一种错误的观念，认为我们在北美、欧洲或亚洲所做的事情，我们解决的问题，已经在这些市场得到解决。

I remember talking to someone in Africa years ago, and he said to me, "Oh." I said, "You just got a new job.

我记得几年前在非洲与某人交谈，他对我说：“哦。”我说：“你刚刚找到了一份新工作。

Where did you find a job?" He's like, "Oh, I found it in a newspaper." I said, "A newspaper?

你在哪里找到工作的？”他说，“哦，我在报纸上找到的。”我说，“报纸？

What do you mean found a job?" I remember participating in solving that exact problem in 1998.

你说找到工作是什么意思？”我记得我在 1998 年参与解决了这个问题。

I was working with the team to solve that, and I had this false assumption that because I solved it here, of course it's solved everywhere.

我正在与团队合作解决这个问题，我有一个错误的假设，因为我在这里解决了这个问题，当然它在任何地方都得到了解决。

Christian Idiodi: I started to see patterns like this in Africa where just two things were trending.

Christian Idiodi：我开始在非洲看到这样的模式，那里只有两种趋势。

One, so many, the poor use of technology and enabling technologies to solve problems.

一是技术和解决问题的技术使用不当。

And two, the difficulty in actually solving problems in these markets, in these emerging markets.

第二，在这些新兴市场中实际解决问题的难度。

And one of the things we take for granted, I always tell people the government is probably the biggest public private product platform in the world.

我们认为理所当然的一件事是，我总是告诉人们政府可能是世界上最大的公共私营产品平台。

In all countries, they all have this public...

在所有国家，他们都有这个公共...

Because they provide the infrastructure and the architecture that is enabling for people.

因为它们提供了为人们提供支持的基础设施和架构。

Christian Idiodi: Imagine if you were trying to code and you didn't have power.

Christian Idiodi：想象一下，如果您尝试编码但没有权力。

Now you're thinking there are markets where you have to solve the problem of getting power before you then getting access to a computer and then getting access to the right type of software to be able to code something.

现在您正在考虑在某些市场中，您必须先解决获得电力的问题，然后才能访问计算机，然后访问正确类型的软件才能编写代码。

Look at all the different things.

看看所有不同的事情。

You have to solve many problems just before you can start to solve the problem in a meaningful way.

在你开始以有意义的方式解决问题之前，你必须先解决许多问题。

This is a very big reflection of the dynamic in Africa.

这在很大程度上反映了非洲的动态。

Christian Idiodi: The second pattern of what we see is because of this challenge, I see two things.

Christian Idiodi：我们看到的第二种模式是因为这个挑战，我看到了两件事。

One, people make a lot of money on a problem than from solving the problem.

第一，人们在解决问题上赚到的钱比解决问题赚的钱多。

There's this whole society that people are very good at walking around problems.

整个社会的人们都非常善于解决问题。

"We've got an electricity problem, we'll just buy generators." "We've got a road problem, we're going to buy bigger cars." I was talk at a conference, and I was driving up to it, and I saw a Tesla with a portable generator at the back of it.

“我们遇到了电力问题，我们就买发电机。” “我们遇到了道路问题，我们要购买更大的汽车。”我在一次会议上演讲，当我开车去那里时，我看到一辆特斯拉，后面有一个便携式发电机。

They'll stop and charge the Tesla, and they keep going on the road.

他们会停下来给特斯拉充电，然后继续上路。

In some ways, that's a whole society, but it's never been a society that didn't have creative people.

从某些方面来说，这就是一个完整的社会，但它从来都不是一个没有创造力的人的社会。

Christian Idiodi: Just an amazing, tremendous amount of talent.

Christian Idiodi：才华横溢，令人惊叹。

It's a very young population.

这是一个非常年轻的群体。

I talk to people all the time.

我一直与人交谈。

I say, "Look." Someone told me, "Well, Africa, seven of the eight most underdeveloped places in the world are in Africa."

我说：“看。”有人告诉我，“嗯，非洲，世界上八个最不发达的地方中有七个在非洲。”

Christian Idiodi: And I said, "Well." They were talking about the discovery of the internet.

Christian Idiodi：我说，“好吧。”他们正在谈论互联网的发现。

Less than 30% of Africa has discovered the internet.

不到 30% 的非洲人发现了互联网。

And I tell them, "Wow.

我告诉他们，“哇。

And we created seven Unicoms from that.

我们由此创建了七家联通公司。

Imagine if 50%, 75% discovered the internet.

想象一下，如果 50%、75% 的人发现了互联网。

We need to understand the opportunities, the youngest population, the fastest growing, some of the fastest growing economies in these markets.

我们需要了解这些市场中的机会、最年轻的人口、增长最快的经济体。

Some of the problems are so basic, and the opportunities are so huge.

有些问题是如此基本，但机遇却如此巨大。

So I had to kill all these assumptions.

所以我不得不消除所有这些假设。

One, that I needed permission to come to solve problems there, and two, that we didn't have the means to equip and educate people.

一是我需要获得许可才能去那里解决问题，二是我们没有能力装备和教育人们。

Christian Idiodi: We don't have a talent problem or a resource problem.

Christian Idiodi：我们没有人才问题或资源问题。

The biggest opportunity I've found is to really empower a continent with enabling technology and the mindset and the skills to be able to leverage technology in solving problems.

我发现的最大机会是真正为非洲大陆提供支持性技术以及能够利用技术解决问题的思维方式和技能。

Christian Idiodi: This led to me starting a nonprofit in Africa, the Innovate Africa Foundation, and we are committed to this education of people on the continent, this enablement with technology.

Christian Idiodi：这促使我在非洲创办了一个非营利组织——创新非洲基金会，我们致力于对非洲大陆人民进行教育，通过技术实现这一目标。

We did our first conference last year, the Inspire Africa Conference.

去年，我们举办了第一次会议，即“激励非洲会议”。

It just blew my mind.

这让我大吃一惊。

I'm so humbled when I could see a thousand people from 31 different countries in Africa come with a hunger and an eagerness to learn how to do product work.

当我看到来自非洲 31 个不同国家的 1000 个人带着饥饿和渴望学习如何进行产品工作时，我感到非常谦卑。

And it's not cheap by any means for them to do that.

无论如何，他们这样做并不便宜。

Christian Idiodi: What moved me the most is looking at the future generation.

Christian Idiodi：最让我感动的是对未来一代的展望。

We had a 13-year-old and an 11-year-old in the workshop.

我们车间里有一个 13 岁和一个 11 岁的孩子。

The 11-year-old was a robotics engineer.

这位 11 岁的孩子是一名机器人工程师。

The 13-year-old was a CEO of a small startup that keeps healthcare records, a leader.

这位 13 岁的年轻人是一家保存医疗记录的小型初创公司的首席执行官，是一家领导者。

And I'm like, "If I can help these people learn how to do product well, this is the whole generation for Africa.

我想，“如果我能帮助这些人学习如何做好产品，这就是非洲的整整一代人。

This is the future of people that want to leverage technology in a meaningful way." So I spend a lot of my time in Africa, coaching, advising and teaching teams how to use technology, how to do product, how to organize themselves as product teams, how to solve problems, and really to create a boldness within the continent for them to go after problems and solve them, than walk around the problems or make money on them.

这是希望以有意义的方式利用技术的人们的未来。”因此，我在非洲花费了大量时间，指导、建议和教导团队如何使用技术、如何做产品、如何将自己组织为产品团队、如何解决问题，并真正在非洲大陆创造一种勇气，让他们去追寻问题并解决问题，而不是绕过问题或利用问题赚钱。

Lenny: If people want to learn more about this, maybe support the work you're doing, what's the best way to find out more?

莱尼：如果人们想了解更多这方面的信息，也许支持你正在做的工作，了解更多信息的最佳方式是什么？

Christian Idiodi: You can visit the nonprofit website.

Christian Idiodi：您可以访问非营利网站。

It's innovateafricafoundation.org.

这是 Innovationafricafoundation.org。

You can follow our work on SVPG or the inspireafricaconference.com.

您可以在 SVPG 或 informafricaconference.com 上关注我们的工作。

I know I will be doing a lot more next year.

我知道明年我会做更多的事情。

In January, I am going to be launching a fund, the Paid Africa Fund, and I want it to be a fund funded by the product community for Africa.

一月份，我将推出一项基金，即付费非洲基金，我希望它成为由非洲产品社区资助的基金。

It's an angel investment fund.

这是一个天使投资基金。

One of the problems I recognize is that so many of the startups, they are not ready for institutional investment, and they are forced into it in some ways.

我认识到的问题之一是，很多初创公司还没有准备好接受机构投资，并且在某些方面被迫参与。

They say people are giving up a lot of equity when they just need cashflow.

他们说，当人们只需要现金流时，他们就会放弃大量股权。

And so I really want to focus on a fund for the community to enable people to get product market fit in those markets.

因此，我真的想专注于社区基金，使人们能够获得适合这些市场的产品。

Christian Idiodi: That'll be launching in January.

Christian Idiodi：这将在一月份推出。

I'll probably do an announcement about it.

我可能会就此发布一个公告。

I'm excited about that work and to really try to promote more of product-centric thinking on the continent.

我对这项工作感到很兴奋，并真正尝试在非洲大陆推广更多以产品为中心的思维。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

You should call this fun reference customers or something along those lines, if the goal is to help them find product market -

如果目标是帮助他们找到产品市场，您应该将其称为有趣的参考客户或类似的名称 -

Christian Idiodi: That's right.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：没错。

They'll be learning a lot of that.

他们会学到很多东西。

Lenny: Christian, is there anything else you wanted to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?

莱尼：克里斯蒂安，在我们开始激动人心的闪电回合之前，您还有什么想与听众分享或留给听众的吗？

Christian Idiodi: I've always made an appeal to the product community to really have a sense of what they do beyond the job of a products team or product manager.

Christian Idiodi：我一直呼吁产品社区真正了解他们在产品团队或产品经理的工作之外所做的事情。

And I always try to encourage people to see that: at the very core of what you do is really solving a problem.

我总是试图鼓励人们看到这一点：你所做的事情的核心是真正解决问题。

And that's creating...

这正在创造...

When you do that, create value in the world, you're making a dent in the world.

当你这样做时，为世界创造价值，你就在为世界带来影响。

People that participate in trying to make things better or trying to solve problems, and we should not shy from that definition of our job.

人们参与努力让事情变得更好或试图解决问题，我们不应该回避我们工作的定义。

Christian Idiodi: It might feel like a fluffy one.

Christian Idiodi：它可能感觉像一个蓬松的东西。

It might feel too lightweight and not meaningful, but I think when people take to heart that that's really what the essence of products is or product work is, they bring to work a different passion, they bring to work a different sense of empathy, they bring to work a different sense of customer centricity.

它可能感觉太轻量且没有意义，但我认为当人们牢记这才是产品或产品工作的本质时，他们会给工作带来不同的热情，他们会给工作带来不同的同理心，他们会给工作带来不同的以客户为中心的感觉。

And all of those things lead to good outcomes.

所有这些都会带来好的结果。

Christian Idiodi: I always make that appeal to product people as like, "Yeah, all the frameworks, techniques, all the stuff, just think truly about what you're trying to do.

Christian Idiodi：我总是向产品人员发出这样的呼吁，“是的，所有的框架、技术，所有的东西，只要真正考虑一下你想要做什么。

You're trying to care enough about a problem to solve it on someone's behalf and do it so well that it give us something every time."

你努力足够关心一个问题，以代表某人解决它，并且做得很好，每次都会给我们带来一些东西。”

Lenny: I really love that last point of just that's how you know if you've built something people care about.

Lenny：我真的很喜欢最后一点，这就是你如何知道你是否构建了人们关心的东西。

They give you something in return, and one of those things could be actually telling other people about it.

他们会给你一些回报，其中之一可能就是实际告诉其他人。

Lenny: To your point about reference customers.

莱尼：关于您关于参考客户的观点。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Well, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.

好了，至此，我们已经进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。

Are you ready?

你准备好了吗？

Lenny: Nope.

莱尼：不。

What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

您向其他人推荐最多的两三本书是什么？

Christian Idiodi: Oh boy.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：天哪。

In this discipline, probably all of our books: Inspired, Empowered, and we are coming up with one in March, Transformed.

在这个学科中，可能我们所有的书：《灵感》、《赋权》，我们将在三月份推出一本《转型》。

Lenny: I see that tee shirt there.

莱尼：我看到那件 T 恤了。

I see the promo happening.

我看到促销活动正在发生。

Christian Idiodi: Yes, it's happening.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：是的，它正在发生。

It's happening.

它正在发生。

But it's really a reflection of so many decades of love and passion for product work.

但这确实反映了几十年来对产品工作的热爱和热情。

And I have not found, I always told Maddie that you write the books after have gone through the failure.

我还没有发现，我总是告诉麦迪，你在经历了失败之后才写书。

It's like, "I've failed at leadership, now there's a book on it.

就像是，“我在领导力方面失败了，现在有一本关于它的书。

I've failed at product, now there's a book on it." And it reflects really the heart of good product work.

我在产品方面失败了，现在有一本书是关于它的。”它真正反映了优秀产品工作的核心。

I love Ben said the hard thing about hard things I love.

我喜欢本对我喜欢的困难的事情说了困难的话。

There's some books that really describe the mindset and culture that good product work is done in.

有一些书真正描述了优秀产品工作的心态和文化。

I always recommend those to people.

我总是向人们推荐这些。

Lenny: Just on this topic of Transformed while we're on it, when is it coming out, and can you give just an elevator pitch for the book just so people know what it'll be about?

莱尼：就在我们正在讨论的《Transformed》这个话题上，它什么时候出版？你能为这本书做一个电梯推介，以便人们知道它会讲什么吗？

Christian Idiodi: Transformed is coming out March next year.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：《变形记》将于明年三月上映。

Oh God, just three months.

天哪，才三个月。

Some people should have gotten shipping dates on their books if you pre-ordered it now.

如果你现在预订的话，有些人应该已经在他们的书上找到了发货日期。

But it really talks about how to move to the product model or the product operating model, which is really this set of beliefs and principles that the best companies work in.

但它真正谈论的是如何转向产品模式或产品运营模式，这实际上是最好的公司所遵循的这套信念和原则。

We share stories of companies that have transformed into this that are not your traditional bond digital or bond tech companies that have made this transition.

我们分享已经转型为这种转型的公司的故事，这些公司不是传统的债券数字公司或债券科技公司，而是已经实现了这种转型。

We tell stories of what companies can do.

我们讲述公司可以做什么的故事。

If it's anything, it's an appeal that there is a better way of working and solving problems and that companies can work in this way regardless of where you are in the journey.

如果有的话，那就是呼吁有更好的工作和解决问题的方式，并且无论你处于旅程的哪个阶段，公司都可以以这种方式工作。

Lenny: All right.

莱尼：好吧。

We'll have to have you back once the book comes out to get more people aware of what is happening.

一旦这本书出版，我们就必须让你回来，让更多的人知道正在发生的事情。

Amazing.

太棒了。

Okay, I'll keep going.

好吧，我会继续。

Favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

您最近最喜欢的最喜欢的电影或电视节目？

Christian Idiodi: I jumped on the Succession bandwagon, and I enjoyed, and I used to love Billions too as well.

Christian Idiodi：我追随了《继承》的潮流，我很喜欢，而且我也曾经喜欢过《十亿》。

I love good writing, really just intellectual media writing business.

我喜欢好的写作，实际上只是智力媒体写作业务。

And so probably Succession and Billions would be two.

所以《继任者》和《十亿》可能是两个。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask when you're interviewing candidates?

莱尼：当你面试候选人时，你有最喜欢问的面试问题吗？

Christian Idiodi: Well, I always give them a problem to solve.

Christian Idiodi：嗯，我总是给他们一个要解决的问题。

That is probably my favorite question, and it's not a traditional problem.

这可能是我最喜欢的问题，而且它不是一个传统问题。

I probably will see something like, "Hey Lenny, I have a friend.

我可能会看到这样的内容：“嘿莱尼，我有一个朋友。

He's been legally deaf or hearing impaired his whole life, and he just got a new job that requires him to wake up significantly earlier than he normally does.

他一生都是法定聋人或听力受损，而他刚刚找到了一份新工作，要求他比平时早起很多。

And as you can imagine, traditional alarm clocks will not do it, will not solve the problem.

正如你可以想象的那样，传统的闹钟不会做到这一点，不会解决问题。

And I would love to give that problem to you.

我很乐意把这个问题交给你。

Walk me through how you go about tackling this or solving this." For me, I like that question because it gives me a sense of how you think.

告诉我你如何解决这个问题。”对我来说，我喜欢这个问题，因为它让我了解你的想法。

It gives me a sense of how you solve problems.

它让我了解你如何解决问题。

It gives me a sense of how you know what you do not know and how you go about knowing the things you need to know, what you need to solve a problem.

它让我了解你如何知道你不知道的事情，以及你如何了解你需要知道的事情，以及解决问题所需的内容。

Christian Idiodi: There's no magical right or wrong answer.

Christian Idiodi：没有神奇的正确或错误答案。

I do a lot of people that say, "I have no clue what to do.

我遇到很多人说：“我不知道该怎么做。

I'm more curious and because I want to now know what you do, but you don't have a clue." Or people that jump straight to solutions, are more engineering-centric.

我更好奇，因为我现在想知道你在做什么，但你没有任何线索。”或者直接跳到解决方案的人更以工程为中心。

People that jump straight to...

直接跳到的人...

I can get a sense of who you are when I give you a problem that requires you to do some thinking.

当我给你一个需要你思考的问题时，我可以了解你是谁。

Lenny: And you're doing this live in an interview?

莱尼：你是在现场采访中这样做的吗？

It's not like, "Go home and think about this, and then-

这并不是说，“回家想想这个，然后——

Christian Idiodi: Oh, I'm doing this live in an interview.

Christian Idiodi：哦，我是在采访中现场直播的。

Lenny: Live, okay.

莱尼：活着，好吧。

And then what's a sign that they're on the right track?

那么什么迹象表明他们走在正确的轨道上呢？

What do you look for that's like, "Yes, this is what I want to see"?

你在寻找什么就像“是的，这就是我想看到的”？

Christian Idiodi: Remember, when I think about what makes a good product manager, I look about collaborative problem solving.

Christian Idiodi：请记住，当我思考如何成为一名优秀的产品经理时，我会考虑协作解决问题。

There are people that feel like, I'm just going to solve the whole thing myself.

有些人觉得，我要自己解决整个问题。

This is what we should do.

这是我们应该做的。

We should do it like no evidence, no data, no kind of stuff in there.

我们应该像没有证据、没有数据、没有任何东西一样去做。

It's very interesting.

这很有趣。

But people that are saying, "You know what?

但人们会说：“你知道吗？

I would need probably work an engineer and designer.

我可能需要担任工程师和设计师。

We might need to put ." I look for intellectual curiosity in some ways, people that have proven questions in your head.

我们可能需要放。”我以某种方式寻找求知欲，那些在你头脑中证明了问题的人。

People that are very quick to see things people.

那些能很快看到事物的人。

I will talk to 20 of them.

我将与其中 20 个人交谈。

I say, "How you going to do that?

我说：“你打算怎么做？

Do you know sign language?" And they're like, "Oh, how am I going to talk to them?" There are people that are like, "I'm going to need a lot of help to try to figure this out.

你懂手语吗？”他们会说，“哦，我该怎么跟他们说话呢？”有些人会说，“我需要很多帮助才能解决这个问题。

I don't know a lot about your friend, but I know..." Some people have frameworks they run to.

我对你的朋友了解不多，但我知道……”有些人有他们所遵循的框架。

It exposes that, if they're married to one way of working.

如果他们只选择一种工作方式，就会暴露这一点。

Christian Idiodi: It's more about knowing what you can't know.

Christian Idiodi：更多的是了解你所不知道的事情。

I'm looking for empathy, humility in some sense.

我正在寻找某种意义上的同理心和谦逊。

It is a competence thing because most of I can teach, I can coach a lot of things, but that arrogance, that ego, those kinds of things, those "I walk alone," those things are very, very challenging and disruptive to a team culture.

这是一个能力问题，因为我可以教大多数人，我可以指导很多事情，但是傲慢，自我，诸如此类的事情，那些“我独自行走”，这些事情对团队文化来说非常非常具有挑战性和破坏性。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really like?

莱尼：你最近发现有一款你真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品吗？

Either an app or something physical?

是应用程序还是实体？

Anything that's like, "Oh, this is really cool"?

有什么类似“哦，这真的很酷”的事情吗？

Christian Idiodi: My eldest son is into sports.

Christian Idiodi：我的大儿子喜欢运动。

He loves all kinds of sports stuff, sports apps, all of those kinds of things, and he got me on this app called Real, like real sports.

他喜欢各种体育用品、体育应用程序，所有这些东西，他让我使用了这个名为 Real 的应用程序，就像真正的体育运动一样。

It's really cool.

真的很酷。

It shows scores of different games, but it's really driven by social influence.

它显示了不同游戏的分数，但它实际上是由社会影响力驱动的。

So all of your Twitter posts will get there like, "Oh my God, ." It's almost like real time more than real time.

所以你所有的 Twitter 帖子都会像“天啊”一样到达那里。这几乎比实时更接近实时。

You're getting real time with reactions of people around you and your communities.

您可以实时了解周围人和社区的反应。

Christian Idiodi: It's a very different way of checking on a score than I've ever seen, and I thought it was just really, really thoughtful in how...

Christian Idiodi：这是一种与我见过的非常不同的检查分数的方式，我认为它在如何......方面非常非常周到。

I want to share reaction to touchdown with 50 people around the world that will care about my favorite team just got a touchdown, and you'll all share reactions at the same time.

我想与世界各地关心我最喜欢的球队刚刚达阵的 50 个人分享对达阵的反应，你们都会同时分享反应。

And the first person that saw it, you can see it.

第一个看到它的人，你就能看到它。

It's very simple.

这很简单。

This is like scores for games, but these days I don't check my scores anywhere else but on it.

这就像游戏的分数，但现在我除了在上面之外不再在其他地方检查我的分数。

Lenny: Do you have a favorite life motto that you often repeat to yourself, share with friends, either in work or in life, that you find useful?

Lenny：你有没有最喜欢的人生格言，无论是在工作中还是在生活中，你经常对自己重复，与朋友分享，并且你认为它有用？

Christian Idiodi: Wow, boy.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：哇，孩子。

I've said a lot in this talk about companies don't care about about you, people care about you.

我在这次演讲中说了很多，公司不关心你，人们关心你。

It's never too late to be what you want to be.

成为你想成为的人，永远不会太晚。

But early on, my father would always tell me, "Show up.

但早些时候，我父亲总是告诉我，“出现吧。

Show up, and you're ahead of 80% of the people in the free world.

只要出现，你就领先于自由世界 80% 的人。

Show up on time, and you're ahead of 85% of the people in the free world.

准时出现，你就领先于自由世界 85% 的人。

Show up on time with a plan, and you're ahead of 90% of the people in the free world.

有计划地准时出现，你就领先于自由世界中 90% 的人。

And if somehow you have the guts to put that plan to action with a smile, then you probably will have a great chance of success.

如果你有勇气微笑着将这个计划付诸实施，那么你可能会有很大的成功机会。

And if you do that over and over again, every aspect of your life, it can at least lead to successful outcomes." And I think that's a lot of some mental definition for me every day.

如果你在生活的各个方面一遍又一遍地这样做，它至少可以带来成功的结果。”我认为这对我来说每天都有很多心理定义。

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Final question: as maybe the most interesting man in the world, is there anything people may not know about you or would be surprised to hear about?

最后一个问题：作为可能是世界上最有趣的人，有什么关于你的事情人们可能不知道或者会感到惊讶吗？

Christian Idiodi: Wow.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：哇。

I hope there are no surprises about me in that kind of case in that way, but I went to a gifted and talented school.

我希望在这种情况下我不会感到惊讶，但我去了一所有天赋的学校。

I was out of my house at 12, and I went to kind of boarding school, and I've never been back home since then, so I've kind of been on my own.

我12岁时就离开了家，去了一所寄宿学校，从那以后我就再也没有回过家，所以我一直都是靠自己。

But we are kind of in the middle of nowhere, probably eight miles from any form of civilization and stuff in the middle of the jungle.

但我们有点偏僻，距离任何形式的文明和丛林中的东西可能有八英里。

No potable water, no electricity.

没有饮用水，没有电。

So you kind of had to get water yourself, generate your own power.

所以你必须自己取水，自己发电。

Probably the most interesting time in my life to shape my worldview, surviving at 12 to 16 on my own in the middle of the jungle.

12 岁到 16 岁的时候，我独自在丛林中生存，这可能是我一生中塑造世界观最有趣的时光。

Very intriguing part of my life.

我生活中非常有趣的一部分。

Lenny: Very different from your life these days.

莱尼：和你现在的生活很不一样。

Actually, one more question.

其实还有一个问题。

I think you're the fourth...

我觉得你是第四个...

You're from Nigeria, right?

你来自尼日利亚，对吧？

Your family's from Nigeria?

你的家人来自尼日利亚？

Lenny: You're the fourth Nigerian guest on this podcast, I realized.

莱尼：我意识到，你是这个播客的第四位尼日利亚嘉宾。

And I always like to ask, what's your favorite Nigerian food slash which food should people seek out if they were to try to find some good Nigerian food?

我总是想问，你最喜欢的尼日利亚食物是什么？如果人们想要寻找一些好的尼日利亚食物，他们应该寻找哪些食物？

Christian Idiodi: My favorite Nigerian is super-duper cultural and native.

Christian Idiodi：我最喜欢的尼日利亚人是超级文化和本土人。

It's like starch and soup.

就像淀粉和汤一样。

You can't really find that anywhere, it got to come from mom's cooking.

你在任何地方都找不到它，它一定是妈妈做的菜。

Marty Cagan has tried it.

马蒂·凯根已经尝试过了。

He came to my hometown, my parents' house and had it.

他来到我的家乡，我父母家并拥有了它。

But if you are discovering Nigerian food, is a variation of rice, which everybody has, jollof rice, and yes people, I'm going to say this: jollof rice, Nigerian jollof is better than Ghanaian jollof.

但如果你发现尼日利亚食物是大米的一种变体，每个人都有，乔洛夫大米，是的，我要说的是：乔洛夫大米，尼日利亚乔洛夫比加纳乔洛夫更好。

It's a war, but it's okay.

这是一场战争，但没关系。

We already claim victory, and we'll move on.

我们已经宣布胜利，我们将继续前进。

But start with jollof rice is elementary, but then you have to try like a pounded yam with a soup.

但从 jollof 米饭开始是基本的，但之后你必须尝试像捣碎的山药加汤一样。

There are many different variations of that.

有许多不同的变体。

And you get a pounded yam, like pounded cassava, and you eat that with a soup, and you will love it.

你会得到捣碎的山药，就像捣碎的木薯一样，你把它和汤一起吃，你会喜欢它的。

Lenny: Some controversy over here, competition-

莱尼：这里有些争议，竞争——

Lenny: ...

莱尼：……

for who's got the best rice.

谁有最好的米饭。

Amazing.

惊人的。

Christian, I am now a huge fan of yours.

克里斯蒂安，我现在是你的超级粉丝。

I'm so happy we did this.

我很高兴我们做到了这一点。

Thank you so much for making time for this.

非常感谢您抽出时间来做这件事。

Two final questions: where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, and how can listeners be useful to you?

最后两个问题：如果人们想要联系您，可以在哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？

Christian Idiodi: You can find me on LinkedIn as well.

Christian Idiodi：您也可以在 LinkedIn 上找到我。

You can reach out to us on our websites svpg.com.

您可以通过我们的网站 svpg.com 与我们联系。

I tell people the best fit to be useful to us is to do good work using these principles and all the things we teach people over and over again.

我告诉人们，最适合对我们有用的就是利用这些原则以及我们一遍又一遍教给人们的所有东西来做好工作。

We care about outcomes, we care about good product work in the world.

我们关心结果，我们关心世界上良好的产品工作。

I would love your support with the work I'm doing in Africa.

我希望得到您对我在非洲所做的工作的支持。

I've always reached out to the product community around the world to help developing countries and communities.

我一直与世界各地的产品社区联系，以帮助发展中国家和社区。

So please follow our work, please support our work in Africa in building a product community.

所以请关注我们的工作，请支持我们在非洲建立产品社区的工作。

Lenny: And what is the website for that again?

莱尼：那这个网站是什么？

Specifically the nonprofit you started?

具体来说是您创办的非营利组织？

Lenny: Amazing.

莱尼：太棒了。

Christian, thank you so much for being here.

克里斯蒂安，非常感谢你来到这里。

Christian Idiodi: Thank you for having me, Lenny.

克里斯蒂安·伊迪奥迪：谢谢你邀请我，莱尼。

Such a pleasure.

真是太高兴了。

Lenny: Bye, everyone.

莱尼：再见，大家。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。