Mastering product strategy and growing as a PM | Maggie Crowley (Toast, Drift, TripAdvisor)
Lenny Rachitsky: Let's paint a picture of just what it was like to join Airbnb in your fifties.
Lenny Rachitsky：让我们描绘一下您在 50 多岁时加入 Airbnb 的情景。
Chip Conley: I was mentoring Brian, but he was also my boss.
奇普·康利：我是布莱恩的导师，但他也是我的老板。
I was 52, the average age was 26.
我当时52岁，平均年龄26岁。
I had to be both wise and curious, and often the dumbest person in the room.
我必须既聪明又好奇，而且常常是房间里最愚蠢的人。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's great to be in founder mode.
Lenny Rachitsky：处于创始人模式真是太好了。
It's not as great to be working for someone in founder mode.
为处于创始人模式的人工作并不那么好。
Chip Conley: Brian assumed everybody else was going to work at the same pace and duration.
奇普·康利：布莱恩认为其他人都会以相同的节奏和持续时间工作。
His point of view is like, "Hey, we're having a meeting in the office tonight at 10 o'clock.
他的观点是，“嘿，我们今晚 10 点在办公室开会。
Be there."
在那儿。”
Lenny Rachitsky: Everyone's talking about, "We got to make the product better.
Lenny Rachitsky：每个人都在谈论，“我们必须让产品变得更好。
We got to optimize this button, and improve conversion."
我们必须优化这个按钮，并提高转化率。”
Chip Conley: Isn't the product the homes and the apartments?
Chip Conley：产品不就是住宅和公寓吗？
Jobot said, "Nope.
乔博特说：“不。
Product in the tech industry is something different." I just said, "Listen, let's get some older people who are hosts in here."
科技行业的产品则有所不同。”我只是说，“听着，让我们邀请一些老年人来主持吧。”
Lenny Rachitsky: This whole story is a really good example of the value of having folks that are older.
Lenny Rachitsky：整个故事是一个很好的例子，说明了拥有年长的人的价值。
Chip Conley: When you have older brains connecting the dots, younger team members being really fast and focused, it's brilliant, and people won't notice your wrinkles as much as they'll notice your energy.
奇普·康利（Chip Conley）：当你有年长的大脑把各个点联系起来，年轻的团队成员非常快速和专注时，这是很棒的，人们不会像注意到你的能量那样注意到你的皱纹。
Lenny Rachitsky: The Airbnb experienced led you to starting something called the Modern Elder Academy.
Lenny Rachitsky：Airbnb 的经历促使你创办了一个名为“现代老年学院”的机构。
Chip Conley: If you think about the caterpillar to butterfly journey, midlife is the chrysalis.
奇普·康利：如果你想想毛毛虫到蝴蝶的旅程，中年就是蛹。
Midlife is not crisis.
中年不是危机。
I'm happier today at 64 than I was at 47 when I was going through my flatline experience.
今天我 64 岁了，比 47 岁时经历平淡经历时更快乐。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, let's back up a little bit, this near death experience.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好吧，让我们回顾一下这次濒临死亡的经历。
Today, my guest is Chip Conley.
今天，我的嘉宾是奇普·康利。
Chip is one of the most extraordinary and interesting people that you'll ever meet.
奇普是你见过的最非凡、最有趣的人之一。
He was a founding member of the board of Burning Nan.
他是 Burning Nan 董事会的创始成员之一。
He was on the board of the Esalen Institute in Big Sur.
他是大苏尔伊莎兰研究所的董事会成员。
At 26, he started a hotel chain called Joie de Vivre, which went on to become the second-largest boutique hotel chain in the US.
26 岁时，他创办了一家名为 Joie de Vivre 的连锁酒店，该酒店后来成为美国第二大精品连锁酒店。
Lenny Rachitsky: After selling it, Brian Chesky personally recruited Chip to join Airbnb to help Brian and the company transform from a fast-growing startup to the world's most valuable hospitality brand.
Lenny Rachitsky：出售后，Brian Chesky 亲自招募 Chip 加入 Airbnb，帮助 Brian 和公司从快速发展的初创公司转型为全球最有价值的酒店品牌。
After leaving Airbnb where he was known as the Modern Elder, chip started the Modern Elder Academy, now known as MEA, the world's first midlife wisdom school, with large sprawling, beautiful campuses in Baja and Santa Fe.
离开 Airbnb（他被称为“现代长者”）后，奇普创办了现代长者学院（现称为 MEA），这是世界上第一所中年智慧学校，在巴哈和圣达菲拥有广阔而美丽的校园。
He's also written seven books, given a TED Talk, and is just a genuinely interesting and amazing human and friend.
他还写了七本书，做过 TED 演讲，是一位真正有趣且令人惊叹的人和朋友。
Lenny Rachitsky: In our conversation, we explore how to be successful in tech as you age, what he's learned working with and for Brian Chesky, including a lot of real talk, how to build a great culture at your company, his near-death experience, and how it changed the trajectory of his life, and so much more.
Lenny Rachitsky：在我们的谈话中，我们探讨了如何随着年龄的增长而在科技领域取得成功，他在与 Brian Chesky 一起工作以及为 Brian Chesky 工作时学到了什么，包括很多真实的谈话，如何在你的公司建立一个伟大的文化，他的濒死经历，以及它如何改变了他的人生轨迹，等等。
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.
如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。
Lenny Rachitsky: Also, if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get a year free of a bunch of incredible products, including Replit, Lovable, Bolt, NNN, Linear Superhuman, Descript, Wispr Flow, Gamma Perplexity, Warp Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, JetPRD, Mobbin and more.
Lenny Rachitsky：此外，如果您成为我的时事通讯的年度订阅者，您将获得一年免费使用一堆令人难以置信的产品，包括 Replit、Lovable、Bolt、NNN、Linear Superhuman、Descript、Wispr Flow、Gamma Perplexity、Warp Granola、Magic Patterns、Raycast、JetPRD、Mobbin 等等。
Check it out at LennysNewsletter.com and click bundle.
请访问 LennysNewsletter.com 查看并单击“捆绑”。
With that, I bring you Chip Conley.
接下来，我为您带来奇普·康利。
This episode is brought to you by Great Question: the all-in-one UX research platform loved by teams at Brex, Canva, Intuit, and more.
本集由 Great Question 为您带来：这是一个深受 Brex、Canva、Intuit 等团队喜爱的一体化用户体验研究平台。
Lenny Rachitsky: One of the most common things I hear from PMs and founders that I talk to is, "I know I should be speaking to customers more, but I just don't have the time or the tools." That's exactly the gap Great Question fills.
Lenny Rachitsky：我从产品经理和创始人那里听到的最常见的话之一是，“我知道我应该更多地与客户交谈，但我只是没有时间或工具。”这正是伟大问题所填补的空白。
Great Question makes it easy for anyone on your team, not just researchers, to recruit participants, run interviews, send surveys, test prototypes, and then share it all with powerful video clips.
Great Question 使团队中的任何人（而不仅仅是研究人员）都可以轻松招募参与者、进行访谈、发送调查、测试原型，然后通过强大的视频剪辑分享这一切。
It's everything you need to put your customers at the center of your product decisions.
这是您将客户置于产品决策中心所需的一切。
Lenny Rachitsky: With a prompt as simple as, "Why did users choose us over competitors?" Great Question not only reveals what your customers have already shared, but it also makes it incredibly easy to ask them in the moment for fresh insights from the right segment.
Lenny Rachitsky：提示很简单，“为什么用户选择我们而不是竞争对手？”伟大的问题不仅揭示了您的客户已经分享的内容，而且还使您可以非常轻松地立即向他们询问来自正确细分市场的新见解。
Picture this: your roadmaps clear, your team's aligned, you're shipping with confidence, and you're building exactly what your customers need.
想象一下：您的路线图清晰，您的团队协调一致，您充满信心地交付，并且您正在构建客户真正需要的东西。
Head to greatquestion.com/Lenny to get started.
前往greatquestion.com/Lenny 开始。
This episode is brought to you by Vanta.
本集由 Vanta 为您带来。
When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things get complicated fast.
当谈到确保您的公司拥有一流的安全实践时，事情很快就会变得复杂。
Lenny Rachitsky: Now, you can assess risk, secure the trust of your customers, and automate compliance for SOC 2, ISO 27,001, HIPAA, and more with a single platform, Vanta.
Lenny Rachitsky：现在，您可以使用单一平台 Vanta 评估风险、确保客户信任并自动实现 SOC 2、ISO 27,001、HIPAA 等合规性。
Vanta's market leading trust management platform helps you continuously monitor compliance, alongside reporting and tracking risks.
Vanta 市场领先的信任管理平台可帮助您持续监控合规性，同时报告和跟踪风险。
Plus, you can save hours by completing security questionnaires with Vanta AI.
此外，您还可以通过 Vanta AI 完成安全调查问卷来节省时间。
Join thousands of global companies that use Vanta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews.
加入数千家使用 Vanta 自动化证据收集、统一风险管理和简化安全审查的全球公司行列。
Lenny Rachitsky: Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to Vanta.com/Lenny.
Lenny Rachitsky：访问 Vanta.com/Lenny 即可享受 Vanta 优惠 1,000 美元。
That's Vanta.com/Lenny.
这是 Vanta.com/Lenny。
Chip, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.
Chip，非常感谢您来到这里，欢迎来到播客。
Chip Conley: Oh, my god, Lenny, I sort of feel like I'm your father who's so proud of his son.
奇普·康利：哦，天啊，莱尼，我有点感觉我是你的父亲，他为他的儿子感到骄傲。
My son has done so well, and I like to talk about, tell all my friends about you.
我儿子做得很好，我喜欢谈论、告诉我所有的朋友关于你的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Wow, I am honored.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哇，我很荣幸。
I'm happy that I'm making you proud, Chip, and I feel the same in reverse.
我很高兴能让你感到骄傲，奇普，相反我也有同样的感觉。
We got to work together for many years at Airbnb.
我们在 Airbnb 合作多年。
I got to learn a ton from you.
我必须向你学习很多东西。
I'm really excited that more people are going to get to learn from you from this conversation.
我真的很高兴更多的人将从这次对话中向您学习。
I'm thinking that the way that we break up this conversation is kind of break it up into three parts, which are kind of the three arcs of your career.
我认为我们分解这次谈话的方式是将其分为三个部分，这就是你职业生涯的三个弧线。
The three parts are your early career, building Joie de Vivre, your time at Airbnb, where we got to work together, and then talking through what you're working on now, the Modern Elder Academy.
这三个部分分别是你的早期职业生涯、创建 Joie de Vivre、你在 Airbnb 的时光、我们一起工作的经历，以及你现在正在做的事情，即现代老年学院。
Lenny Rachitsky: I actually want to start with the middle chapter.
Lenny Rachitsky：我实际上想从中间章节开始。
I'm going to talk about Airbnb where we got to work together.
我要谈谈我们合作的 Airbnb。
Let's paint a picture of just what it was like for you to join Airbnb in your fifties surrounded by a bunch of 20 something, 30 somethings reporting to Brian Chesky, who is, I don't know, in his thirties.
让我们来描绘一下你在 50 多岁时加入 Airbnb 的情景，周围是一群 20 岁、30 岁左右的人，向 Brian Chesky 汇报工作，我不知道他三十多岁了。
What was that like?
那是什么样子的？
Chip Conley: Yeah, I wasn't planning on doing this.
Chip Conley：是的，我本来没打算这么做。
I got a call from a woman named Natalie Tucci who worked at Airbnb, and said, "Brian Chesky and I've been talking about having you come in and give a talk.
我接到一位在 Airbnb 工作、名叫娜塔莉·图奇 (Natalie Tucci) 的女士打来的电话，她说：“布莱恩·切斯基和我一直在讨论让你进来演讲。
Are you open to that?" I was like, "Well, what is Airbnb?" This was 13 years ago, I think it was the end of 2012.
你对此持开放态度吗？”我当时想，“那么，Airbnb 是什么？”这是13年前的事了，我想那是2012年底。
Then Brian called me and said, "Listen, we really want you to come in." I came in and gave a talk about innovation and hospitality.
然后布莱恩打电话给我说：“听着，我们真的希望你进来。”我进来做了一个关于创新和热情好客的演讲。
Chip Conley: I think I didn't realize it was sort of a dress rehearsal for Brian to see whether the younger crowd there, I was 52, the average age was 26, would feel good about an old geezer like me with a bricks and mortar boutique hotel background, talking about the industry that Airbnb was disrupting.
Chip Conley：我想我没有意识到这是 Brian 的一次彩排，目的是看看那里的年轻人群（我今年 52 岁，平均年龄为 26 岁）是否会对像我这样有实体精品酒店背景的老家伙谈论 Airbnb 正在颠覆的行业感觉良好。
As it turns out, people liked me.
事实证明，人们喜欢我。
Brian said, "I want you to come in and work 15 hours a week as a consultant.
布莱恩说：“我希望你作为顾问每周工作 15 个小时。
I want you to be my in-house mentor for both me, and Joe and Nate." I said, "Okay, 15 hours a week is great," and then within three weeks, it was 15 hours a day.
我希望你成为我、乔和内特的内部导师。”我说，“好吧，每周工作 15 小时就很好了”，然后三周之内，就变成了每天 15 小时。
Chip Conley: I was saying to Brian, "You're actually not paying me anything." He gave me a little bit of stock that would vest in six months and I said, "I don't know that this deal's working for me.
奇普·康利：我对布莱恩说，“你实际上没有付给我任何钱。”他给了我一点股票，六个月后归属，我说：“我不知道这笔交易对我有用。
It seems like the company needs to be a little more than you said." He said, "Yeah, I got you.
看来公司需要比你说的多一点。”他说：“是的，我找到你了。
I just wanted you to get in here and see what you could do." Long story short is I ended up going full-time.
我只是想让你进来看看你能做什么。”长话短说，我最终成为了全职员工。
It was hard at first, Lenny, because I didn't understand the tech lingo.
莱尼，一开始很难，因为我不懂技术术语。
I didn't have any background.
我没有任何背景。
I was 52.
那年我52岁。
I'd never worked in a tech company before.
我以前从未在科技公司工作过。
Chip Conley: I was mentoring Brian on leadership, but he was also my boss.
奇普·康利：我在领导力方面指导布莱恩，但他也是我的老板。
I was the head of global hospitality and strategy, which meant initially, I was in charge of all the hosts in the world.
我是全球酒店和战略主管，这意味着最初我负责世界上所有的东道主。
Over time, that meant a lot more things too.
随着时间的推移，这也意味着更多的事情。
I was involved in many parts of the business, definitely not the technical parts, but I think the hardest thing for me was just that initially, when people were talking about product, and Jobot said, "I'm the chief product officer," and I'm like, "Well, isn't the product the homes and the apartments?" Jobot said, "No, product in the tech industry is something different."
我参与了业务的许多部分，绝对不是技术部分，但我认为对我来说最困难的事情就是最初，当人们谈论产品时，Jobot 说，“我是首席产品官”，我想，“好吧，产品不就是住宅和公寓吗？”乔博特说：“不，科技行业的产品是不同的。”
Chip Conley: I had to be both wise and curious, and often the dumbest person in the room.
奇普·康利：我必须既聪明又好奇，而且常常是房间里最愚蠢的人。
It required me to have a certain amount of humility as well as to be reporting to a guy 21 years younger than me, Brian.
这要求我有一定的谦逊，并且要向比我小 21 岁的布莱恩汇报。
Lenny Rachitsky: That actually, the point you're making there about what is the product I asked Laura Hughes, formerly Laura Modi, what to talk to you about, who we got to work together.
伦尼·拉奇茨基：实际上，你在那里提出的关于产品是什么的观点，我问劳拉·休斯（原劳拉·莫迪），要和你谈谈什么，我们要和谁一起工作。
She's the CEO of Bobbie now.
她现在是Bobbie的首席执行官。
You worked closely with her at Airbnb.
您在 Airbnb 与她密切合作。
She said this was the thing that stuck with her most about working with you is coming in and everyone's talking about, "We got to make the product better.
她说，这是与您合作时最让她困扰的事情，每个人都在谈论，“我们必须让产品变得更好。
We got to optimize this button and improve conversion, and product, product, product."
我们必须优化这个按钮并提高转化率，以及产品、产品、产品。”
Lenny Rachitsky: You're just like, "What is the product?
Lenny Rachitsky：你会问，“产品是什么？
I thought the product of Airbnb was the hosts, and the experiences, and the trips." I think that shows the value of someone like you coming in with different experience, and also older, and helping us communicate differently to hosts who also don't understand.
我认为 Airbnb 的产品就是房东、体验和旅行。”我认为这显示了像您这样拥有不同经验且年长的人的价值，帮助我们以不同的方式与同样不理解的房东进行沟通。
Chip Conley: Well, there's an interesting thing also, Lenny, and you notice the difference in age between our hosts and our guests was probably about 10 years maybe.
Chip Conley：嗯，还有一件有趣的事情，Lenny，你注意到我们的主人和客人之间的年龄差异可能大约有 10 岁。
Over time, it actually got higher, because we started actually reaching out more aggressively to boomers and Gen Xers to be hosts.
随着时间的推移，它实际上变得更高，因为我们实际上开始更积极地接触婴儿潮一代和 X 世代作为东道主。
You had, I remember at one point, and again, let's get into a product talk here, I remember at one point, there was a conversation that was going on about taking Airbnb so it was mobile only.
我记得有一次，我们再次在这里进行产品讨论，我记得有一次，正在进行一场关于采用 Airbnb 的对话，因此它只能是移动的。
Chip Conley: Partly because back in the day, the two sharing economy darlings were Uber and Airbnb.
Chip Conley：部分原因是在当时，共享经济的两个宠儿是 Uber 和 Airbnb。
Of course, Uber was pretty much a mobile only app.
当然，Uber 基本上是一款移动应用程序。
Airbnb started as non-mobile and then went mobile.
Airbnb 最初是非移动业务，后来转向移动业务。
Then it was like, "Oh, wouldn't it be interesting if everything was mobile?" At some point, I just said, "Listen, let's get some older people who are hosts in here to see how well they will be versed in managing their listing purely on mobile."
然后就想，“哦，如果一切都是移动的，那不是很有趣吗？”在某个时候，我只是说，“听着，让我们找一些年纪较大的房东来看看他们在移动设备上管理房源的熟练程度。”
Chip Conley: There were times where I was a voice for older users, in this case, hosts, that was helpful to guys and women in their twenties who were the engineers and designers and product managers.
Chip Conley：有时我会为老年用户（在本例中为主持人）代言，这对二十多岁的工程师、设计师和产品经理很有帮助。
I always liked working with you.
我一直很喜欢和你一起工作。
I want to just compliment Lenny for a minute.
我只想赞美莱尼一分钟。
Chip Conley: We did a lot of different things together, and what I appreciated was you had a humility to you that was different than a lot of the other product managers.
Chip Conley：我们一起做了很多不同的事情，我欣赏的是你的谦逊，这与许多其他产品经理不同。
There's other product managers, I'm not going to mention their names, and some of these product managers were very good.
还有其他的产品经理，我就不提他们的名字了，其中有一些产品经理非常优秀。
There were other product managers though who I found it sometimes hard to work with, because they expected me to know as much as they did.
但我发现有时很难与其他产品经理一起工作，因为他们希望我知道的和他们一样多。
Chip Conley: I guess it would be, if the opposite side of that would be an older manager expecting a younger manager to have as much emotional intelligence, because emotional intelligence on average is something we get better at as we get older.
奇普·康利：我想，如果相反的一面是一位年长的经理期望年轻的经理拥有同样多的情商，那么我想会是这样，因为平均情商是我们随着年龄的增长而变得更好的东西。
I think the key for me to work in that environment and make it work was to not pretend to know things I didn't know, it was to have a sense of humor and humility in how I operated, and it was to show respect and hope that I got it in return.
我认为我在那种环境中工作并使其发挥作用的关键是不要假装知道我不知道的事情，而是在我的运作方式中保持幽默感和谦虚感，并且表现出尊重并希望我得到回报。
I don't know if you felt that way, Lenny.
我不知道你是否也有这样的感觉，莱尼。
That's the kind of environment I tried to embody there.
这就是我试图在那里体现的那种环境。
Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。
There's a couple of threads there I want to follow.
我想关注几个线程。
One is just working for Brian.
其中一个只是为布莱恩工作。
A lot of people talk about founder mode, and the power of founder mode, it's so great.
很多人都在讲创始人模式，创始人模式的威力，实在是太强大了。
That's how we-
我们就是这样——
Chip Conley: ...
奇普·康利：...
populated that recently, that was Brian.
最近出现的那个人就是布莱恩。
Lenny Rachitsky: Exactly.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：确实如此。
It's great to be in founder mode.
处于创始人模式真是太好了。
It's not as great to be working for someone in founder mode.
为处于创始人模式的人工作并不那么好。
Often a very challenging place to be.
通常是一个非常具有挑战性的地方。
Lenny Rachitsky: You reported to Brian.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：你向布莱恩汇报。
Also, you were just your own boss basically your entire career.
而且，基本上你的整个职业生涯都是你自己的老板。
You never really had to report to someone before.
以前你从来不需要向别人汇报。
Also, he was in his thirties, you're in your fifties.
而且，他三十多岁了，你五十多岁了。
What was it like working for Brian?
为布莱恩工作感觉如何？
The more real you can be, the better, because a lot of people always talk about here, it's like, "It was wonderful, I learned so much." Just like what was that experience?
你越真实越好，因为很多人总是在这里谈论，就像，“这太棒了，我学到了很多东西。”就像那次经历是什么？
What did you learn from working for someone like Brian?
你从为布莱恩这样的人工作中学到了什么？
Chip Conley: Well, let's start with the fact that I would never have gone to work for Airbnb if I didn't believe in Brian, because quite frankly, when Brian approached me and we started talking about it, I was like, I wasn't sure I liked the business model all that well as a hotelier.
奇普·康利：好吧，让我们先说一个事实：如果我不相信布莱恩，我永远不会去 Airbnb 工作，因为坦率地说，当布莱恩找到我并开始谈论这件事时，我当时想，我不确定我是否喜欢酒店经营者的商业模式。
I had to believe in something beyond the business model, because I wasn't sure that the business model would work.
我必须相信商业模式之外的东西，因为我不确定商业模式是否有效。
Although soon after joining, I saw the numbers.
尽管加入后不久，我就看到了这些数字。
I was like, "Wow, this is working pretty well."
我当时想，“哇，这工作得很好。”
Chip Conley: I believed in Brian because the thing that Brian showed up with initially was just a curiosity and an appetite for learning.
奇普·康利：我相信布莱恩，因为布莱恩最初表现出来的只是好奇心和学习欲望。
I remember back in 2011, when the big debacle happened with the apartment getting trashed by a guest.
我记得 2011 年，公寓被一位客人乱扔垃圾，发生了一场大灾难。
Brian decided he was going to go to find George Tenet, the former head of the CIA.
布莱恩决定去找前中央情报局局长乔治·特尼特。
Brian would go to experts and say to the expert, "I don't know what the hell I'm doing." He did that with me when it came to hospitality.
布莱恩会去找专家并对专家说：“我不知道我到底在做什么。”当谈到热情好客时，他对我也是这样做的。
I appreciated that a guy who had a lot of hubris, and Brian definitely has a lot of hubris, could also have the humility to say, "I want to learn more about this."
我很欣赏一个非常傲慢的人，布莱恩肯定也非常傲慢，也可以谦虚地说：“我想了解更多这方面的知识。”
Chip Conley: It's sort of a growth mindset.
奇普·康利：这是一种成长心态。
What was hard with Brian is, I'd say, three things.
我想说，布莱恩的困难在于三件事。
Number one is Brian assumed everybody else was going to work at the same pace and duration, and he still has this issue.
第一，布莱恩认为其他人都会以相同的速度和持续时间工作，但他仍然有这个问题。
The beautiful thing about Brian is he's been very honest in the last couple of years on podcasts about his workaholism, and about the fact that the way he lives his life is not like other people.
布莱恩的美妙之处在于，过去几年他在播客上非常诚实地谈论了他的工作狂，以及他的生活方式与其他人不同的事实。
Back when I joined, his point of view is like, "Hey, we're having a meeting in the office tonight at 10 o'clock, be there."
当我加入时，他的观点是，“嘿，我们今晚 10 点在办公室开会，请到场。”
Chip Conley: It's like, "Really?
奇普·康利：就像，“真的吗？
No, I don't think so." I think the fact that Brian assumed everybody else was as one-dimensional in their focus as him was at times a problem, especially for a guy like me who was, I was in a stage in my career where I have a lot of interests.
不，我不这么认为。”我认为布莱恩认为其他人的注意力都像他一样是一维的，这一事实有时是一个问题，特别是对于像我这样的人来说，我正处于职业生涯的一个阶段，我有很多兴趣。
That was one.
那是一个。
Number two is Brian admires and admired back then, Steve Jobs so much that there was a sense that as a guy who came from the product world, from the Rhode Island School of Design, he knew better than anybody else.
第二，布莱恩当时非常钦佩和钦佩史蒂夫·乔布斯，以至于有一种感觉，作为一个来自产品世界、来自罗德岛设计学院的人，他比任何人都了解。
Chip Conley: There was this, one of the challenges for a CEO sometimes, and this was my experience in my 24 years of running Joie de Vivre, my boutique hotel company, is it feels good when you feel needed.
Chip Conley：有时，CEO 面临的挑战之一是，这是我在经营 Joie de Vivre（我的精品酒店公司）24 年来的经验，那就是，当你感到被需要时，感觉很好。
To come into a room and sort of see something, and then point out the things that are wrong makes you feel good.
走进一个房间，看到一些东西，然后指出错误的地方，会让你感觉很好。
If you don't have emotional intelligence, that process can really piss people off or demotivate people.
如果你没有情商，这个过程真的会让人生气或失去积极性。
In Brian's case, I didn't have to deal with that too much, because he didn't understand, when I was starting, it was really, I was in charge of the hosts around the world.
就布莱恩而言，我不必处理太多问题，因为他不明白，当我开始时，我真的负责世界各地的东道主。
Chip Conley: Quite frankly, the idea of what's the psychology of the host?
Chip Conley：坦白说，主持人的心理是什么？
What's a host entrepreneur like?
主持人企业家是什么样的？
I went on a world tour to 20 different cities, and went and talked to hosts.
我进行了一次世界巡演，去了 20 个不同的城市，并去和主持人交谈。
I think I came back from that with a little bit of credibility with Brian to say like, "Hey, yes, our data science team and the quality folks who are doing qualitative interviews, they're getting something out of this." I actually went into the homes of these hosts all around the world, and I think I was lucky because Brian did less of that than he did with other people.
我想我从布莱恩那里得到了一点可信度，我说：“嘿，是的，我们的数据科学团队和进行定性采访的高质量人员，他们正在从中得到一些东西。”事实上，我走进了世界各地这些主人的家中，我想我很幸运，因为布莱恩做的事情比他对其他人所做的要少。
Chip Conley: For the product team, my God, a product meeting with Brian would keep people up the night before, not just because they were actually working all night long to get prepared, but also they knew they would work all night long, because they probably wouldn't sleep in anticipation for this.
Chip Conley：对于产品团队来说，天哪，与 Brian 的产品会议会让人们在前一天晚上彻夜难眠，不仅因为他们实际上整夜工作以做好准备，而且他们知道自己会整夜工作，因为他们可能不会为此而睡觉。
That was another issue, I'd say.
我想说，那是另一个问题。
I'd say the other thing that, and in each of these cases, I think Brian's getting better.
我想说的是，在每一种情况下，我认为布莱恩都在变得更好。
Just like Steve Jobs got better over time when he left and then he came back, he was much better when he came back, from all the people I've talked with who worked with him.
就像史蒂夫·乔布斯随着时间的推移，他离开然后回来时变得更好一样，从我采访过的所有与他共事的人看来，他回来后也变得更好了。
Chip Conley: I'd say the third thing for Brian was the sense that adding a zero to something in terms of expectations, or thinking you're going to set a deadline that is unreasonable is necessary.
奇普·康利：我想说布莱恩的第三件事是，在期望方面加零，或者认为你要设定不合理的最后期限是必要的。
If you don't do that, there's almost an underlying message that people won't kick ass on their own.
如果你不这样做，几乎就会传达出一个潜在的信息：人们不会自己踢屁股。
There was a sense that Brian had that he had to maybe create ridiculous goals, because even if we hit half of that goal, it was very encouraging.
布莱恩有一种感觉，他可能必须制定一些荒谬的目标，因为即使我们实现了目标的一半，这也是非常令人鼓舞的。
What he missed in that was the fact that when you miss a goal, and when you have someone who has power over you setting the goal, or encouraging a particular goal, you're setting people up for a lot of stress.
他忽略了这样一个事实：当你错过一个目标时，当你有一个对你有权力的人设定目标或鼓励一个特定的目标时，你就会给人们带来很大的压力。
Chip Conley: At the end of the day, I think Brian is a generational leader as a millennial, and I think he deserves a lot of credit.
奇普·康利：归根结底，我认为布莱恩是千禧一代的一代领袖，我认为他应该得到很多赞誉。
Airbnb is as successful as it is, partly because of Brian's leadership.
Airbnb 如此成功，部分原因在于布莱恩的领导力。
I would not have been there without him.
没有他我就不会在那里。
Having said that, I had to hold my tongue in meetings sometimes when I saw how he was operating, because I wouldn't have done it that way.
话虽如此，有时当我看到他的运作方式时，我不得不在会议上保持沉默，因为我不会那样做。
I think over time, I hope I had a little bit of influence on him in terms of how to apply some emotional intelligence to leading people.
我想随着时间的推移，我希望我在如何运用一些情商来领导别人方面对他产生一点影响。
Lenny Rachitsky: For people in this position, a lot of people work for founders, especially now that founder mode is a thing.
Lenny Rachitsky：对于处于这个职位的人来说，很多人都为创始人工作，尤其是现在创始人模式已经成为一种趋势。
Every founder is just like, "I'm the founder, you got to do what I tell you.
每个创始人都会说：“我是创始人，你必须按照我告诉你的去做。
It's founder mode.
这是创始人模式。
Again, this is how we win.
再说一次，这就是我们获胜的方式。
We're in founder mode." You shared really good insight of building credibility as a really good lever to work better with someone like that.
我们正处于创始人模式。”您分享了关于建立信誉的非常好的见解，这是与这样的人更好地合作的一个很好的杠杆。
Is there anything else you just think as tactics to be effective with founders in founder mode?
您认为还有什么其他策略可以在创始人模式下有效地对待创始人吗？
Chip Conley: Knowing what I know now, I would say, "Lenny, let's do a little pep talk, you and me before the meeting." I want you to start the meeting with the following as you present and Brian's in the room.
奇普·康利：根据我现在所知道的情况，我会说，“莱尼，让我们在会议前，你和我做一些鼓舞人心的演讲。”我希望您在布赖恩在场时进行以下发言，以开始会议。
"Brian, let's talk about what we're trying to accomplish here.
“布莱恩，我们来谈谈我们想要实现的目标。
Let's get really clear," and you probably did this, but, "let's get really clear on what both, what's the intention of this iteration that we're doing on the product?
让我们真正弄清楚，”你可能会这样做，但是，“让我们真正弄清楚我们在产品上所做的这次迭代的目的是什么？
What defines success, and what do I want to get accomplished in this meeting?"
成功的定义是什么？我想在这次会议中实现什么目标？”
Chip Conley: You start with that, because that actually helps to make sure there's alignment.
Chip Conley：你从这个开始，因为这实际上有助于确保一致性。
Frankly, if there's not alignment, you might as well not have the meeting.
坦率地说，如果不一致，你还不如不参加会议。
Let's spend the rest of this meeting talking about alignment.
让我们在本次会议的剩余时间里讨论协调问题。
That's what I would do, because that's something you can come back to over and over again during the rest of the meeting when Brian or the founder, whomever it is, is beating you up on something, saying like, "Well, let me tell you why it looks like that or why we're doing that." It goes back to that, the three principles or the three key goals we're trying to do with this product update.
这就是我会做的，因为在会议的剩余时间里，当布莱恩或创始人，无论是谁，在某件事上殴打你时，你可以一遍又一遍地回顾这一点，比如，“好吧，让我告诉你为什么它看起来像那样，或者我们为什么这样做。”这又回到了我们试图通过此产品更新实现的三个原则或三个关键目标。
Yeah, so try to set alignment on the front end.
是的，所以尝试在前端设置对齐。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's an important tip for anyone working with anyone, even.
Lenny Rachitsky：对于任何与任何人一起工作的人来说，这都是一个重要的提示。
I love just that that works especially well here.
我喜欢它在这里特别有效。
Then just going back to the credibility piece, what you shared there is you went on this world tour, not something everyone can do, but just getting really close to your customers, and using that as a, "Hey, I actually know what I'm talking about.
然后回到可信度部分，你在那里分享的是你参加了这次世界巡演，不是每个人都能做的事情，但只是非常接近你的客户，并将其用作“嘿，我实际上知道我在说什么。
You actually should listen to me even though you're the founder."
即使你是创始人，你实际上也应该听我的。”
Chip Conley: Yeah, I think the other thing is PowerPoint or whatever tool you're using, just be careful about being overly reliant upon it, especially when you have a combustible founder who may take you off path, such that your deck in its current order makes no sense at all.
Chip Conley：是的，我认为另一件事是 PowerPoint 或你正在使用的任何工具，只是要小心不要过度依赖它，特别是当你有一个易燃的创始人可能会让你偏离正轨时，这样你的套牌按照当前的顺序就毫无意义了。
I always wanted to really limit the deck as much as possible, because I didn't know where the meeting was going to go.
我一直想尽可能地限制牌组，因为我不知道会议要去哪里。
I wanted the decks helpful at the start, at the very start, to just set principles, set goals.
我希望这些套牌从一开始就能够帮助我们设定原则、设定目标。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: This whole story of you joining Airbnb in your fifties is a really good example of intergenerational collaboration, something that you're big on, just the value of having folks that are older working at tech companies.
Lenny Rachitsky：您在 50 多岁时加入 Airbnb 的整个故事是代际合作的一个很好的例子，这是您所热衷的事情，也是让年长的人在科技公司工作的价值所在。
Maybe just talk about that broadly, and then we segue into other elements of your career.
也许只是广泛地谈论这一点，然后我们继续讨论你职业生涯的其他要素。
Chip Conley: I wrote a book called Wisdom at Work: the Making of a Modern Elder after my Airbnb experience.
奇普·康利：在 Airbnb 的经历之后，我写了一本名为《工作中的智慧：现代长者的塑造》的书。
I did a lot of research.
我做了很多研究。
I was like, "Wow, so why do we have less intergenerational collaboration in the workplace, especially in Silicon Valley than we could use?" I started interviewing people, then I started talking to brain scientists, neuroscientists, and realized that a younger brain has fluid intelligence, tends to be fast and focused, really good at problem solving, very good at linearity in terms of looking at things.
我当时想，“哇，那么为什么我们在工作场所，尤其是在硅谷，代际合作比我们可以利用的要少呢？”我开始采访人们，然后开始与脑科学家、神经科学家交谈，并意识到年轻的大脑具有流体智力，往往速度快且专注，非常擅长解决问题，非常擅长看待事物的线性。
Chip Conley: As you get older, the brain shrinks a little bit and you have crystallized intelligence.
奇普·康利：随着年龄的增长，大脑会稍微萎缩，智力就会结晶。
In crystallized intelligence, what's going on is you're going from left brain to right brain more adeptly.
在结晶智力中，发生的事情是你更熟练地从左脑转移到右脑。
There's a little bit less focus, a little more holistic thinking, systemic thinking, connecting the dots.
焦点少一点，多一点整体思考、系统思考，将各个点联系起来。
You can imagine that on a team when you have older brains connecting the dots, thinking broadly, peripherally, younger team members being really fast and focused, and being able to think linearly how to get things done, that combination can either be successful or not.
你可以想象，在一个团队中，如果年长的大脑能够将各个点联系起来，进行广泛、外围的思考，而年轻的团队成员非常快速且专注，并且能够线性思考如何完成工作，那么这种组合要么成功，要么失败。
Chip Conley: When it's successful.
奇普·康利：当它成功的时候。
It's brilliant.
太棒了。
I think Laura, Laura Modi, Laura Hughes Modi, who was my director of hospitality, but also we worked in so many different capacities with her in the company, I loved working with her because her brain worked different than my brain.
我想劳拉、劳拉·莫迪、劳拉·休斯·莫迪，她是我的接待总监，而且我们在公司里与她一起担任过很多不同的职务，我喜欢和她一起工作，因为她的大脑与我的大脑工作方式不同。
That's the opportunity is when you realize that diversity on a team, there's lots of kinds of diversity, but when it comes to brain diversity, not just with neuro diverse people but age diverse people, you get a benefit, an effective benefit that is not as noticeable, quite frankly, in some other diversities.
这就是机会，当你意识到团队的多样性时，有很多种多样性，但当涉及到大脑多样性时，不仅是神经多样化的人，而且是年龄多样化的人，你会得到一个好处，一种有效的好处，坦率地说，在其他一些多样性中并不那么明显。
Chip Conley: I found that over and over was really helpful.
Chip Conley：我发现一遍又一遍确实很有帮助。
Part of my job sometimes was to find the blind spot.
有时我工作的一部分就是找到盲点。
Again, if you are very focused, one of the things I said to Brian early on was, "I've seen the business plan.
再说一遍，如果你非常专注，我早些时候对布莱恩说的一件事是，“我已经看过商业计划了。
Now, I know the goals of how big we want to be in three years." This was very early in my tenure.
现在，我知道我们三年内要达到多大的目标。”这是我任期的早期。
I said, "But what we really have done, everything we're trying to do is to have no regulations and pay no occupancy tax." Now, hotels pay a bed tax, occupancy tax, we're not paying it, and we're trying to do everything we can not to pay it.
我说：“但我们真正所做的是，我们所做的一切都是没有法规，也不缴纳占用税。”现在，酒店要缴纳床位税、占用税，我们不缴纳，而且我们正在尽一切努力不缴纳。
Chip Conley: Knowing that, so for our listeners and viewers to know this, this is something that a guest pays.
奇普·康利：知道这一点，所以让我们的听众和观众知道这一点，这是客人付费的。
It's not the host who pays it, the guest pays it.
不是主人付钱，而是客人付钱。
It's part of the bill.
这是账单的一部分。
If you go and stay in a hotel, there's a big, big tax part of the bill, but it made us more affordable by not having to have our guests pay taxes.
如果你去住一家酒店，帐单中会有很大一部分税费，但由于不必让我们的客人缴税，这使我们更加负担得起。
Long story short is I said to Brian, "If we're as big as we're going to be three years from now, I promise you we're going to be regulated.
长话短说，我对布莱恩说：“如果我们三年后发展到现在的规模，我向你保证我们将受到监管。
I promise you we're going to be paying occupancy taxes.
我向你保证我们将缴纳占用税。
Let's take some proactive steps toward building a strategy for how we're going to be regulated."
让我们采取一些积极主动的措施来制定监管策略。”
Chip Conley: That has consistently been Airbnb's biggest challenge is regulation in municipal markets all around the world.
Chip Conley：Airbnb 面临的最大挑战一直是全球市政市场的监管。
If we'd started a little earlier, maybe in New York, maybe in New York, it wouldn't have gotten to the point where it has been toxic in New York for the last dozen years ever since I was there.
如果我们早一点开始，也许在纽约，也许在纽约，就不会发展到自从我在那里以来的过去十几年里纽约一直有毒的地步。
There's a few other markets in the world where it was like that.
世界上还有一些其他市场也是如此。
I would just say the value in having some age diversity, even when you have an older person reporting to a younger person, is it can be collaborative.
我只想说，年龄多样性的价值在于，即使你有一个年长的人向一个年轻人报告，它也可以是协作的。
Chip Conley: There was a guy named John Q.
奇普·康利：有一个人叫约翰·Q。
Smith, an engineer who I think you probably remember him at Airbnb.
史密斯，一位工程师，我想你可能还记得他在 Airbnb 工作的经历。
This is a guy who looked younger than he was, and he was a little bit nervous about telling people his age.
这是一个看上去比实际年龄还要年轻的家伙，对于告诉别人自己的年龄他还有点紧张。
The thing that was great about John is over time, he was not necessarily going to be the best coder at Airbnb.
John 的伟大之处在于，随着时间的推移，他不一定会成为 Airbnb 最好的程序员。
There was a whole new collection of coders coming in every month, but he became a great manager.
每个月都有一批新的程序员加入，但他成为了一名出色的经理。
Chip Conley: The beautiful thing about moving from the individual contributor to the manager, the person who can actually bring out the best in a bunch of younger people, who may be better technically than he or she is, but they know how to elevate talent.
奇普·康利：从个人贡献者转变为管理者的美妙之处在于，管理者能够真正发挥出一群年轻人的最佳水平，他们在技术上可能比他或她更好，但他们知道如何提升人才。
I call this invisible productivity.
我称之为隐形生产力。
It's productivity in which you make everybody else around you better.
生产力是你让周围的人变得更好的生产力。
That's something I tried to do with my teams at Airbnb.
这是我和 Airbnb 团队尝试做的事情。
Ultimately, I had six different teams, five hospitality and five other teams reporting to me.
最终，我有六个不同的团队，五个接待团队和五个其他团队向我汇报。
I did my best to just be the kind of person who wasn't solving all the problems, but I was trying to elevate.
我尽力成为那种不能解决所有问题的人，但我正在努力提升。
Chip Conley: There's a woman named Lisa Dubost who is at Airbnb, and she, one day, the HR department was reporting to me at one point, and she was running HR.
Chip Conley：有一位名叫 Lisa Dubost 的女士，在 Airbnb 工作，有一天，她的人力资源部门向我汇报，她负责人力资源部门的工作。
She was 25 and had no background in HR at all.
她25岁，完全没有人力资源背景。
One day she came in to me and she just said, "Chip, you are my confidant." Lisa has a French accent and fluent in French.
有一天，她来找我，只是说：“奇普，你是我的知己。”丽莎有法国口音，法语流利。
She said confidant in just the right way.
她用正确的方式说知己。
I said, "Oh, well thank you, Lisa." I said to her, "You haven't given me any juicy details yet.
我说：“噢，谢谢你，丽莎。”我对她说：“你还没有给我任何有趣的细节。
A confidant is someone who has the secrets."
知己就是拥有秘密的人。”
Chip Conley: She said to me, "No, in my part of France, a confidant is somebody who gives you confidence." It was like, "Oh, well, maybe that's what a mentor can be is a confidant, someone who gives you confidence and helps by asking questions, helps you as the younger mentee find your roadmap to success."
奇普·康利：她对我说，“不，在我所在的法国，知己是给你信心的人。”就像，“哦，好吧，也许这就是导师可以做的就是一个知己，一个给你信心并通过提问来帮助你的人，帮助你作为年轻的受训者找到成功的路线图。”
Lenny Rachitsky: You're sharing a lot of really good examples of the value of older folks being within tech companies.
Lenny Rachitsky：您分享了很多非常好的例子，说明老年人在科技公司工作的价值。
Let me just ask you this, how real is ageism in tech?
让我问你，科技领域的年龄歧视有多真实？
I ask because a lot of people that are hiring are probably thinking, no, no, I'm not biased.
我问这个问题是因为很多正在招聘的人可能会想，不，不，我没有偏见。
I'm going to hire the best person.
我要雇用最好的人。
If they're someone in their fifties, I'll hire them.
如果他们是五十多岁的人，我就会雇用他们。
No problem.
没问题。
It doesn't feel like it actually works out that way often.
感觉实际情况并不经常如此。
Just how real of a problem is this?
这个问题到底有多真实？
What do you see?
你看到了什么？
Chip Conley: Yeah, it's clearly a problem.
奇普·康利：是的，这显然是一个问题。
I'd say it's maybe a little bit less of a problem than it was a dozen years ago, because I think a dozen years ago, it was almost a blind spot.
我想说，与十几年前相比，这可能不是一个问题，因为我认为十几年前，这几乎是一个盲点。
In Airbnb, we had a group called Wisdom at Airbnb.
在 Airbnb，我们有一个名为 Wisdom at Airbnb 的小组。
It was an employee resource group for people 40 and older.
这是一个针对 40 岁及以上人群的员工资源小组。
There are lots of these kinds of groups that didn't exist a dozen years ago in all kinds of tech companies, which is good, because it means that there's a voice and a way to congregate with a bunch of people who are older.
在各种科技公司中，有很多十几年前不存在的此类群体，这很好，因为这意味着有一个声音和一种方式可以与一群年长的人聚集在一起。
Chip Conley: Ultimately, we had these senior nomads come in and be like the voice of the customer for 10 weeks at Airbnb.
Chip Conley：最终，我们让这些资深游牧者加入进来，在 Airbnb 工作了 10 周，为客户代言。
It was the Wisdom at Airbnb older employee group that really actually pushed for this with Brian.
真正与 Brian 共同推动这一举措的是 Airbnb 老员工团体的 Wisdom。
The challenge is, in a world in which the smartest new people, especially when it comes to technical skills and engineering, are coming in with a whole new set of skills that an older person doesn't have, the older person is both expensive and may be perceived as slow.
挑战在于，在这个世界上，最聪明的新人，尤其是在技术技能和工程方面，都拥有老年人所不具备的一套全新技能，老年人既昂贵又可能被认为行动迟缓。
In the era of AI, it's a whole new ballgame.
在人工智能时代，这是一个全新的游戏。
Chip Conley: The question, I think, will be if what AI cannot do is the human wisdom piece, artificial intelligence and human wisdom might be the balance beams here.
奇普·康利：我认为，问题在于人工智能是否不能做的是人类智慧的事情，人工智能和人类智慧可能是这里的平衡木。
Is it possible that older managers who have a little more emotional intelligence, a little more pattern recognition, a little bit more wisdom, can be a value to a company?
情商多一点、模式识别多一点、智慧多一点的老管理者是否有可能对公司产生价值？
The jury's still out.
陪审团还没有定论。
There's a New York Times article that just came out about the question of is AI going to wipe out older people's jobs or younger people's jobs?
《纽约时报》刚刚发表了一篇文章，讨论人工智能会取代老年人的工作还是年轻人的工作？
I think the answer is both, but the question is how bad is it for both of them?
我认为答案是两者都是，但问题是这对他们俩来说有多糟糕？
Chip Conley: I think what I would say to an older person, and when I say older, I mean like 45 or older, if you've done well financially and you're doing okay, the question you might ask yourself is, are you open, as I ultimately was with Brian in my fourth year at Airbnb?
Chip Conley：我想我会对年长的人说些什么，当我说年长时，我的意思是 45 岁或以上，如果你的经济状况良好并且过得还不错，你可能会问自己的问题是，你是否持开放态度，就像我在 Airbnb 的第四年和 Brian 一样？
I took a substantial pay cut.
我大幅减薪。
I think it went down to 40% or 50% time, and my stock, my options were dropped to that level, my salaries dropped to that level, because I didn't want to work full time anymore.
我认为它下降到了 40% 或 50% 的时间，我的股票、我的期权都下降到了这个水平，我的工资也下降到了那个水平，因为我不想再全职工作了。
There are a lot of people who can be valuable in a company who have some institutional wisdom, some process knowledge of how to get things done in this organization.
有很多人可以在公司中发挥价值，他们拥有一些制度智慧，一些关于如何在组织中完成工作的流程知识。
Chip Conley: In tech companies, that's really important.
Chip Conley：在科技公司中，这非常重要。
Airbnb, one of the biggest challenges that Airbnb has always been, how do I get shit done around here?
Airbnb，Airbnb 一直面临的最大挑战之一，我如何在这里完成任务？
Process knowledge allows you to understand, how do you deal with an org chart and get things done partly because you understand the motivations of different groups?
流程知识可以让您了解如何处理组织结构图并完成工作，部分原因是您了解不同群体的动机？
That is something you build over time.
这是你随着时间的推移而建立的。
Long story short is I just think that older people might look at their workload and say, "I'm willing to take a 20% or a 40% pay cut to go to 80% or 60% time," and the company is going to get their money's worth in that.
长话短说，我只是认为老年人可能会考虑他们的工作量并说，“我愿意减薪 20% 或 40%，以达到 80% 或 60% 的工作时间”，而公司将在这方面让他们的钱物有所值。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really interesting point, that if you're older and you're maybe less connected to the most cutting edge ways of building and coding, AI makes that a lot easier in many ways where you start to just talk to it.
Lenny Rachitsky：这是一个非常有趣的观点，如果你年纪大了，你可能不太了解最前沿的构建和编码方式，人工智能在很多方面会让你变得更容易，你开始只需要与它交谈。
You don't even need to understand what's happening underneath.
您甚至不需要了解下面发生的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a lot of listeners who are older in tech, there's a lot of listeners who are approaching midlife, let's say, worried about what happens to their career.
Lenny Rachitsky：有很多听众在科技领域年纪较大，有很多听众已经接近中年，比如说，担心他们的职业生涯会发生什么。
When you look at people you've worked with and had at your academy, which we'll talk about, who continue to thrive and continue to have a really healthy career in tech, what do they do differently?
当你看看那些与你共事过以及在你的学院里工作过的人（我们将要讨论的），他们在科技领域继续蓬勃发展并继续拥有真正健康的职业生涯，他们有什么不同的做法？
What do they have in common that other folks you think should work on and focus on?
您认为其他人应该努力和关注的共同点是什么？
Chip Conley: I think this idea being a mentor and a mentor and an intern, there's just the voracious appetite for curiosity.
奇普·康利：我认为这个想法是作为一个导师、一个导师和一个实习生，就是对好奇心的贪婪胃口。
When I talk to someone who's a midlife and wants to be in the tech world or already is, the thing I say is, "Show up with curiosity and a passionate engagement for what you do, and people won't necessarily notice your wrinkles as much as they'll notice your energy." Energy has two parts to it.
当我和一个人到中年、想进入科技界或已经进入科技界时，我会说：“带着好奇心和对你所做的事情的热情投入，人们不一定会注意到你的皱纹，而是会注意到你的精力。”能量有两个部分。
Energy is, they notice that you are not just sort of resting on your laurels, you have physical energy in how you do your job.
能量是，他们注意到你不只是安于现状，你在工作中拥有体力。
Chip Conley: When people are like that, they're sort of timeless.
奇普·康利：当人是这样的时候，他们就有点永恒了。
They're age fluid, as I say.
正如我所说，它们是年龄流体。
We talk about gender fluidity.
我们谈论性别流动性。
Well, there could be age fluidity.
嗯，可能存在年龄流动性。
They're not defined by their age.
他们不是由年龄来定义的。
The other part of energy that's important is being positive.
能量的另一重要部分是积极的。
That's sort of more energetic, a little bit more California energetic.
这有点更有活力，更有加州的活力。
There's a sense of when someone's got good energy, you're drawn to them.
有一种感觉，当某人精力充沛时，你就会被他们吸引。
It's about showing up with the kind of energy of someone 10 or 20 years younger than you, and then showing up with positive energy.
就是带着比你小10岁、20岁的人的能量出现，然后带着正能量出现。
Chip Conley: I think one of the things that would say I did well at, there's lots of things I didn't do well at Airbnb, but in terms of what I did well is I was very approachable.
Chip Conley：我认为我做得很好的一件事是，我在 Airbnb 有很多事情做得不好，但就我做得好的方面来说，我非常平易近人。
Over the course of time, the number of mentees I had, the number of people who just wanted to have coffee with me or tea, the number of people who just said, "Thank you for being in that meeting, you just sort of gave it a positive feeling," was really important.
随着时间的推移，我有多少学员，有多少人只是想和我一起喝咖啡或茶，有多少人只是说，“谢谢你参加那次会议，你只是给了它一种积极的感觉”，这些都非常重要。
Chip Conley: My energy, both the positive energy part, and then also the fact that yeah, I could work 60 and 70 hours a week, and I could travel around the world as the Secretary of State of the company, which is what Brian called me a couple times on stage.
奇普·康利：我的能量，既是正能量的部分，也是事实，是的，我可以每周工作 60 到 70 小时，我可以作为公司的国务卿环游世界，这是布莱恩在舞台上多次这样称呼我的。
The fact that I could do that meant that no one was looking at me and saying, "Let's get rid of the old fogey." Well, maybe some people the board, but I wasn't aware of them.
事实上，我能做到这一点，这意味着没有人看着我说：“让我们摆脱这个老家伙吧。”好吧，也许有些人是董事会成员，但我不知道他们。
I just think show up with that passionate engagement, that curiosity, that energy, the ability to be both the learner and the teacher, with respect for people that are younger than you, and you're going to probably do pretty well.
我只是认为，只要表现出热情、好奇心、活力、既是学习者又是老师的能力，尊重比你年轻的人，你可能会做得很好。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is really great advice.
Lenny Rachitsky：这确实是一个很好的建议。
Today's episode is brought to you by Coda.
今天的节目是由 Coda 为您带来的。
I personally use Coda every single day to manage my podcast and also to manage my community.
我个人每天都使用 Coda 来管理我的播客和社区。
It's where I put the questions that I plan to ask every guest that's coming on the podcast.
我在这里提出了我计划向播客中的每位嘉宾提出的问题。
It's where I put my community resources, it's how I manage my workflows.
这是我放置社区资源的地方，也是我管理工作流程的方式。
Here's how Coda can help you.
以下是 Coda 如何帮助您。
Imagine starting a project at work, and your vision is clear, you know exactly who's doing what and where to find the data that you need to do your part.
想象一下，在工作中启动一个项目，您的愿景很清晰，您确切地知道谁在做什么以及在哪里可以找到完成您的工作所需的数据。
Lenny Rachitsky: In fact, you don't have to waste time searching for anything because everything your team needs from project trackers and OKRs, to documents and spreadsheets, lives in one tab all in Coda.
Lenny Rachitsky：事实上，您不必浪费时间搜索任何内容，因为您的团队所需的一切（从项目跟踪器和 OKR，到文档和电子表格）都位于 Coda 的一个选项卡中。
With Coda's collaborative all in one workspace, you get the flexibility of docs, the structure of spreadsheets, the power of applications, and the intelligence of AI, all in one easy to organize tab.
借助 Coda 的全合一协作工作区，您可以在一个易于组织的选项卡中获得文档的灵活性、电子表格的结构、应用程序的强大功能以及 AI 的智能。
Like I mentioned earlier, I use Coda every single day.
正如我之前提到的，我每天都使用 Coda。
More than 50,000 teams trust Coda to keep them more aligned and focused.
超过 50,000 个团队相信 Coda 可以让他们更加协调一致、更加专注。
Lenny Rachitsky: If you're a startup team looking to increase alignment and agility, Coda can help you move from planning to execution in record time to try for yourself, go to coda.io/Lenny today, and get six months free of the team plan for startups.
Lenny Rachitsky：如果您是一个希望提高一致性和敏捷性的初创团队，Coda 可以帮助您在创纪录的时间内从计划转向执行，亲自尝试一下，立即访问 coda.io/Lenny，并获得六个月免费的初创团队计划。
That's C-O-D-A dot I-O slash Lenny to get started for free, and get six months of the team plan.
这是 C-O-D-A 点 I-O 斜线 Lenny 免费开始，并获得六个月的团队计划。
Coda.io/Lenny.
Coda.io/莱尼。
Lenny Rachitsky: Interestingly, curiosity comes up a lot when I ask AI-forward people, what are they focusing on helping their kids learn most?
Lenny Rachitsky：有趣的是，当我询问人工智能前沿的人们时，他们最关注帮助孩子学习的是什么？
Curiosity is the most common way to describe.
好奇心是最常见的描述方式。
At every stage of life, curiosity is something to cultivate.
在人生的每个阶段，好奇心都是需要培养的。
I want to go to the flip side of companies looking to hire.
我想了解一下正在招聘的公司的另一面。
It feels like there's this untapped supply of awesome people that companies with ageism and tech aren't finding and hiring.
感觉就像存在着尚未开发的优秀人才，而存在年龄歧视和科技的公司却找不到和雇用他们。
To help hiring managers and companies take advantage of this, what's something you suggest they do?
为了帮助招聘经理和公司利用这一点，您建议他们做什么？
How do they shift their mindset or maybe shift the way they hire that might help them find these people?
他们如何改变心态或者改变招聘方式来帮助他们找到这些人？
Chip Conley: I think we're moving into, there's a book that David Epstein wrote called Range, and the whole premise of range is that we are moving out of the era of the specialists and into the era of the generalists.
奇普·康利：我认为我们正在进入，大卫·爱泼斯坦写了一本书，叫做《范围》，《范围》的整个前提是我们正在走出专家时代，进入通才时代。
I think AI is just accelerating this.
我认为人工智能只是加速了这一过程。
As we are more reliant upon AI, and AI can be exceptional at technical skills and solutions really expeditiously, I think generalists, people who can think broadly, become all the more important.
由于我们更加依赖人工智能，并且人工智能可以非常迅速地在技术技能和解决方案方面表现出色，我认为通才、能够广泛思考的人变得更加重要。
I think that what I would say to someone in HR or recruiting is beyond what I already said before, is the person passionate?
我认为我要对人力资源或招聘人员说的话超出了我之前所说的范围，这个人是否充满激情？
Chip Conley: Are they curious?
奇普·康利：他们好奇吗？
Are they a learner?
他们是学习者吗？
Do they have good energy?
他们有良好的能量吗？
I would also say, are they a generalist when they're a problem solver?
我还想说，当他们是问题解决者时，他们是多面手吗？
I actually think that's going to be an increasingly important part of how effective companies think broadly.
事实上，我认为这将成为高效公司如何进行广泛思考的一个越来越重要的部分。
I think that's a key one.
我认为这是关键之一。
I think also, this idea of how do you create intergenerational collaboration in the form of mutual mentorships?
我还认为，如何以相互指导的形式建立代际合作？
One of the things I loved at Airbnb, there were a few people I did this with, where I had something to teach them and they had something to teach me.
我在 Airbnb 喜欢的一件事是，我和一些人一起做这件事，我可以教他们一些东西，他们也可以教我一些东西。
Chip Conley: A good example, my iPhone, so there's 97% of the utility of my iPhone that I probably don't use and don't know how to use.
Chip Conley：一个很好的例子，我的 iPhone，所以我的 iPhone 97% 的实用性我可能不会使用，也不知道如何使用。
This was back in, let's say, 2013, 2014.
这要追溯到 2013 年、2014 年。
There were people who knew iPhone or Google Suites back then.
那时有人知道 iPhone 或 Google Suites。
I'd never used a Google Doc back then when I joined Airbnb.
当我加入 Airbnb 时，我从未使用过 Google 文档。
There were people who could teach me something technical, and then they wanted to learn something from me, which would be like, "How do you want a great meeting," or, "How do you give a great employee review?" There are a lot of managers who've never been a manager before.
有些人可以教我一些技术知识，然后他们想向我学习一些东西，比如“你想要一个很棒的会议”，或者“你如何给员工一个很好的评价？”有很多经理以前从未当过经理。
Chip Conley: How do you disperse people like me in the organization so that there's usually not enough time for these young managers to come to some training session on how to do a good employee review.
奇普·康利：你如何在组织中分散像我这样的人，这样这些年轻的经理通常没有足够的时间来参加一些关于如何进行良好的员工评估的培训课程。
You sort of have to do it out there in the field.
你必须在现场做这件事。
It's like apprenticeship back in the trades.
这就像回到行业中的学徒期。
You're an electrician apprentice, not because you're watching some video on it, you're out there in the field, doing it.
你是一名电工学徒，不是因为你在看一些视频，而是因为你在现场，正在做这件事。
That's a huge value in a younger company when you have some older people who have not been vested with the responsibility of managing those younger people.
这对于年轻的公司来说是一个巨大的价值，因为你有一些年长的人，而他们没有被赋予管理这些年轻人的责任。
Chip Conley: They may actually be reporting to someone younger than them, but they're there to actually be support.
奇普·康利：他们实际上可能是在向比他们年轻的人汇报，但他们实际上是在提供支持。
In some ways, I think that was part of the unexpected value that I was able to offer to Airbnb and to Brian specifically, because there are a ton of people in Airbnb who were not even in my departments who would come to me and say, "I'm having a problem.
在某些方面，我认为这是我能够为 Airbnb 和 Brian 提供的意外价值的一部分，因为 Airbnb 中有很多人甚至不属于我的部门，他们会来找我说：“我遇到了问题。
How do I solve this?
我该如何解决这个问题？
Can we spend lunch together?" I almost always said yes.
我们可以一起吃午饭吗？”我几乎总是说是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I think the reason people did that in many ways is you just have a very unique aura of wisdom, and it's hard to replicate that, Chip.
Lenny Rachitsky：我认为人们在很多方面这样做的原因是你有一种非常独特的智慧光环，这是很难复制的，奇普。
Chip Conley: Yes, and it all comes back to the curiosity.
奇普·康利：是的，这一切都回到了好奇心。
If I was just the older elder, dispensing wisdom, people would've gotten bored very quickly.
如果我只是年长的长辈，传播智慧，人们很快就会感到无聊。
I think the fact, yeah, I was on the board of Burning Man, that's cool.
我认为事实上，是的，我是火人节的董事会成员，这很酷。
I show up as someone who feels younger than I am.
我表现得比我年轻。
I'm turning 65 this year.
我今年就 65 岁了。
The bottom line is I think people lost track of my age, partly because I lost track of my age.
最重要的是，我认为人们忘记了我的年龄，部分原因是我忘记了自己的年龄。
Lenny Rachitsky: That's such good advice on the front end to be successful as a person kind of getting older in tech is curiosity, positive energy, the way you talked about it, passionate, engagement, is that the term?
Lenny Rachitsky：对于前端来说，这是一个很好的建议，作为一个在科技领域长大的人，要想取得成功，就需要好奇心、正能量，就像你所说的那样，热情、参与，是这个词吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Then on the other side is hire generalists.
Lenny Rachitsky：另一方面是雇佣通才。
This actually comes up a lot in the AI conversations, just exactly as you said, the power of generalists reminds me, I'm going to this gym now, and the lady there is just like, "I love AI so much, because I'm just such a big picture person, and I am so bad at just getting, thinking about the details, and AI solves all that for me." It's like, "Here, here's what I want to do.
这实际上在人工智能对话中经常出现，正如你所说，通才的力量提醒我，我现在要去这个健身房，那里的女士就像是，“我非常喜欢人工智能，因为我只是一个大局观的人，我很不擅长获取、思考细节，而人工智能为我解决了所有这些问题。”就像，“这，这就是我想做的。
I'll do this, move my house to here, here." It's like, "Here's what you need to do, step one, two, three, four, five."
我会这么做，把我的房子搬到这里，这里。”就像，“这就是你需要做的，第一步、第二步、第三步、第四步、第五步。”
Chip Conley: It is remarkable.
奇普·康利：这很了不起。
Since the time I've known you, how fast it has become dominant in our lives.
自从我认识你以来，它很快就在我们的生活中占据了主导地位。
Yeah, I think one of the last thing I'd say is, look, I'm privileged.
是的，我想我要说的最后一件事是，看，我很荣幸。
For those of you who are listening or watching this and you're saying, "Well, Chip, you were 52 years old and they came to you.
对于那些正在听或正在观看此节目的人来说，您会说：“奇普，您已经 52 岁了，他们来找您。
That doesn't happen to me.
那不会发生在我身上。
I'm not in that position." The thing I would say is, you're right, but I could have been plucked and brought in and partly as Brian's boy, people would've rejected me, because if I didn't show up the right way, it wouldn't have worked well.
我不处于那个位置。”我想说的是，你是对的，但我可能会被选拔并带进来，部分作为布莱恩的儿子，人们会拒绝我，因为如果我没有以正确的方式出现，那就不会有很好的效果。
Chip Conley: There are lots of people who Brian brought into the company who didn't work well.
奇普·康利：布莱恩带进公司的很多人都表现不佳。
I think the key is how do you get the foot in the door?
我认为关键是如何迈入这扇门？
At the end of the day, those second and third order of degrees of separation in terms of networking are still essential.
归根结底，网络方面的第二和第三级分离度仍然至关重要。
The most important thing is to be able to articulate what you have accomplished in a new way that a recruiter says, "Wow." I really tell people I would love to see a resume.
最重要的是能够以招聘人员说“哇”的新方式阐明你所取得的成就。我真的告诉人们我很想看到简历。
Chip Conley: First of all, the question that I think it was, who was it?
奇普·康利：首先，我认为的问题是，他是谁？
Someone asked it, I don't remember if it was Cheryl Stamberg or someone else asked her, who said, "What's the biggest problem you're dealing with here, and how can I help you?" That's a great line.
有人问过，我不记得是谢丽尔·斯坦伯格还是其他人问过她，她说：“你在这里面临的最大问题是什么，我能帮你什么？”这是一条很棒的线。
Number two is what I love to see is not so much what roles you've had, what bullet points do you have of your things you've learned?
第二，我喜欢看到的并不是你所扮演的角色，而是你对所学到的东西有哪些要点？
Give me, in a paragraph, a thorny problem you faced.
用一段话告诉我你遇到的一个棘手问题。
What was the problem, and what skills you used to actually accomplish it, and what was the result of that?
问题是什么，你用什么技能来实际完成它，结果是什么？
Chip Conley: I would love to see a resume like that.
奇普·康利：我很想看到这样的简历。
The older you are, the more you can actually have a resume like that.
你年纪越大，你就越能拥有这样的简历。
Then you can use that as the conversation piece when you're doing interviews.
然后你可以在面试时将其用作对话片段。
Lenny Rachitsky: I love that.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我喜欢这个。
I love that we're getting into interview advice and resume advice.
我喜欢我们提供面试建议和简历建议。
Lenny Rachitsky: Speaking of thorny problems, and also why Brian decided to reach out to you, I want to go back to the beginning of your career.
Lenny Rachitsky：说到棘手的问题，以及布莱恩为什么决定联系你，我想回到你职业生涯的开始。
Chip Conley: You're good at this, by the way.
Chip Conley：顺便说一句，你很擅长这个。
You're good at this.
你很擅长这个。
Lenny Rachitsky: I was thinking ahead.
Lenny Rachitsky：我正在提前思考。
Okay, so you're in business school, you left business school, you're like, "Maybe I should start a hotel." Something that rarely works out usually probably leads to a lot of money lost and a lot of frustration and just like, "Okay, what have I done with my life?" Worked out for you.
好吧，所以你在商学院，你离开商学院，你会想，“也许我应该开一家酒店。”一些很少成功的事情通常可能会导致大量金钱损失和很多挫败感，就像“好吧，我这辈子做了什么？”为你锻炼了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Ended up building the second largest boutique hotel chain in the world, Joie de Vivre, beloved.
Lenny Rachitsky：最终建立了世界第二大精品连锁酒店 Joie de Vivre，深受喜爱。
I loved every single experience I've had as Joie de Vivre.
我喜欢作为 Joie de Vivre 的每一次经历。
When you sold it, I was like, "That is so sad." Talk about just that story.
当你卖掉它时，我想，“这太悲伤了。”只谈那个故事。
I know this could go on for hours, but what's the-
我知道这可能会持续几个小时，但那是-
Chip Conley: 26 years old, couple of years out of Stanford Business School, working for a commercial real estate developer.
Chip Conley：26 岁，从斯坦福大学商学院毕业几年，在一家商业房地产开发商工作。
I was bored silly.
我无聊傻了。
I wanted to do something more creative.
我想做一些更有创意的事情。
Bill Graham, famous concert promoter, said to me, because I had gotten to know him, "What San Francisco really needs is a rock and roll hotel." I decided to start looking to find a broken down motel hotel that I could turn into a rock and roll hotel.
著名音乐会发起人比尔·格雷厄姆（Bill Graham）在我认识他后对我说：“旧金山真正需要的是一家摇滚酒店。”我决定开始寻找一家破旧的汽车旅馆酒店，我可以将其改造成一家摇滚酒店。
Chip Conley: I found something in the Tenderloin, and turned it into the Phoenix, which became a famous rock and roll hotel that I have owned for 39 years now.
Chip Conley：我在 Tenderloin 找到了一些东西，然后把它变成了 Phoenix，它成为一家著名的摇滚酒店，我已经拥有了 39 年了。
Long story short is that was how I started Joie de Vivre, the company.
长话短说，我就是这样创办了 Joie de Vivre 公司的。
We grew to 52 hotels around California, became the second largest, as you said, in the world in terms of the number of hotels, boutique hotels that we operated.
我们在加州各地的酒店数量增加到了 52 家，正如您所说，就我们经营的酒店、精品酒店的数量而言，我们成为世界第二大酒店。
I loved it till I hated it.
我喜欢它直到我讨厌它。
In my late forties, I hated it, didn't want to do it anymore.
在我四十多岁的时候，我讨厌它，不想再这样做了。
The great recession came along and it was just kicking my ass.
大衰退来了，这让我很受打击。
Chip Conley: I really went through a bit of what I now call a midlife chrysalis, but a midlife crisis, where I just wanted to change everything.
奇普·康利：我确实经历了一些我现在所说的中年蛹，而是一场中年危机，我只想改变一切。
I got through it.
我熬过来了。
I had an NDE, I had a near-death experience where I had an allergic reaction to an antibiotic and I died.
我有过一次濒死体验，有过一次濒死体验，我对抗生素产生了过敏反应，然后就死了。
From that point forward, I realized every day is a gift and a bonus, and I decided to sell my company at the bottom of the great recession.
从那时起，我意识到每一天都是一份礼物和奖金，我决定在经济大衰退的底部卖掉我的公司。
That's really how I created this space in my life to be able to join Airbnb.
这就是我在生活中创造这个空间以便能够加入 Airbnb 的方式。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, let's back up a little bit.
Lenny Rachitsky：好吧，让我们退一步。
This near-death experience, share more there.
这种濒临死亡的经历，还有更多分享。
What happened there?
那里发生了什么？
Chip Conley: Yeah, so I write books.
奇普·康利：是的，所以我写书。
I've written seven or eight books, and I had written a book called Peak: How Great Companies Get Their Mojo from Maslow.
我已经写了七八本书，其中有一本书叫《巅峰：伟大的公司如何从马斯洛那里获得魔力》。
It was a book that Brian really liked, and part of the reason he wanted to reach out to me.
布莱恩非常喜欢这本书，这也是他想联系我的部分原因。
I was on a book tour, I had a broken ankle.
我当时正在巡回售书，脚踝骨折了。
I broke my ankle at a bachelor party playing baseball.
我在单身派对上打棒球时扭伤了脚踝。
I ended up with a cut on my leg and the cut on my leg had fertilizer in it and went septic.
最后我的腿上被割伤了，腿上的伤口里有化肥，然后化脓了。
I was on a very strong antibiotic and I died.
我服用了很强的抗生素，结果我死了。
Chip Conley: I went flatlined from the allergic reaction to the antibiotic.
奇普·康利：我因对抗生素的过敏反应而变得平淡无奇。
I saw, it happened nine times over 90 minutes, I kept dying, kept flatlining, yeah.
我看到，这种情况在 90 分钟内发生了九次，我一直在死，一直在平淡，是的。
Ended up in the hospital for three days.
结果在医院住了三天。
They finally said, "Listen, it's an allergic reaction, we believe." They thought it was a heart attack, a bunch of stuff, stroke, et cetera.
他们最后说：“听着，我们相信这是过敏反应。”他们认为这是心脏病发作、一堆东西、中风等等。
No, it was the allergic reaction.
不，这是过敏反应。
I saw birds.
我看到了鸟。
I saw all this beautiful stuff.
我看到了所有这些美丽的东西。
We don't have time to go into it.
我们没有时间去深究。
Chip Conley: I did.
奇普·康利：我做到了。
You want to hear this?
你想听这个吗？
Yeah, I saw this beautiful stuff.
是的，我看到了这么漂亮的东西。
Chip Conley: I think there's a hotel in San Francisco called the Vitale that I built across the street from the ferry building, and it's still there, but it's no longer called the Vitale.
Chip Conley：我想在旧金山有一家名为 Vitale 的酒店，是我在渡轮大楼对面建造的，它仍然在那里，但不再叫 Vitale。
In that hotel, there were these slippers in every guest room.
在那家酒店里，每间客房都有这样的拖鞋。
One slipper said slow, the other slipper said down.
一只拖鞋表示慢，另一只拖鞋表示向下。
I was wearing these slippers in my flatline thing, flying in the air in a 40-foot tall living room in the Alps, surrounded by birds that were tweeting and chirping at me.
我穿着这双拖鞋，在阿尔卑斯山一间 40 英尺高的客厅里飞翔，周围都是对我鸣叫的鸟儿。
Chip Conley: I understood bird talk.
奇普·康利：我能听懂鸟语。
I understand exactly what they were saying.
我完全明白他们在说什么。
They kept telling me, "If you slow down, you will see beauty and you will see awe." There was a bunch of other things, but let me just limit it to that and just say, and then the birds would say, "It's time to go." The birds would go out the big window into the mountains, and I would try to follow them.
他们一直告诉我，“如果你放慢脚步，你会看到美丽，你会看到敬畏。”还有很多其他的事情，但让我仅限于此，然后说，然后鸟儿会说：“是时候离开了。”鸟儿会从大窗户飞到山里，我会试着跟着它们。
Right as I would get to the window, all of a sudden, I'd come back to life.
就在我走到窗边时，突然间，我又活过来了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Holy shit.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：天啊。
I love that there was a message inside of this experience.
我喜欢这次经历中传达的信息。
I don't know how many people experienced that.
我不知道有多少人经历过这样的事情。
Clearly, this led to a big life change.
显然，这导致了生活的巨大变化。
It's interesting that a lot of times, you need something like that.
有趣的是，很多时候，你需要这样的东西。
You've been doing this for how many years at that point?
那时你已经这样做了多少年了？
Running Joie de Vivre?
运行Joie de Vivre？
Chip Conley: At that point, I'd been running Joie de Vivre for 22 years.
Chip Conley：那时，我已经经营 Joie de Vivre 22 年了。
Lenny Rachitsky: 22 years.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：22 岁。
It's interesting that you need something like that a lot of times.
有趣的是，你很多时候都需要类似的东西。
Otherwise, it just momentum just keeps carrying you forward.
否则，它只是推动你前进的动力。
Chip Conley: Within two years, I'd sold it, and I had the chance to move on.
奇普·康利：不到两年，我就卖掉了它，我有机会继续前进。
Lenny Rachitsky: With building Joie de Vivre, something you've written about a number of times is just the way you built it is a really unique approach to building a business.
Lenny Rachitsky：通过构建 Joie de Vivre，您已经多次写过的内容就是您构建它的方式，这是一种非常独特的创建业务的方法。
Specifically, there's a huge focus on culture, which also came out at Airbnb.
具体来说，Airbnb 也非常注重文化。
Talk about just why you see culture as such an important part of how you build a business like tangibly.
谈谈为什么你认为文化是你如何建立有形企业的重要组成部分。
A lot of people talk about culture, warm, fuzzy stuff, but you think about it very tangibly.
很多人谈论文化、温暖、模糊的东西，但你思考得非常具体。
Chip Conley: Culture is what happens around here when the boss is not around.
奇普·康利：文化是老板不在的时候发生的事情。
The more distributed a company, the more culture is important.
公司分布越广，文化就越重要。
The boss is around in a traditional bricks and mortar workplace where everybody shows up at eight and leaves at six, and we all see each other.
老板在传统的实体工作场所，每个人八点上班，六点下班，我们都会见面。
In my company, in Joie de Vivre, we had 52 hotels, and 25 restaurants, and four spas, and it was distributed.
在我的公司 Joie de Vivre，我们拥有 52 家酒店、25 家餐厅和 4 个水疗中心，并且是分布式的。
I couldn't be in all those places all the time.
我不可能一直呆在那些地方。
Chip Conley: Similarly, with Airbnb, Airbnb had offices around the world and it was a global company.
Chip Conley：与 Airbnb 类似，Airbnb 在世界各地设有办事处，是一家全球性公司。
The more distributed you are, of course, in the remote work world we live in, the more culture is important, and more difficult.
当然，在我们生活的远程工作世界中，你的分布越分散，文化就越重要，也就越困难。
When you're remote, there's these few cues you have about how we do things around here.
当您身处偏远地区时，您可以通过以下一些线索了解我们如何在这里做事。
They're usually in a digital, virtual format, which is why it's all the more important for you to have in-person gatherings of a team more often if you are virtual.
它们通常采用数字虚拟形式，这就是为什么如果您是虚拟的，那么更频繁地进行团队面对面聚会就显得尤为重要。
Chip Conley: At the end of the day, the reason the culture is important is because it actually helps, it helps guide people in terms of making decisions, but it's also a magnet for the right kind of people.
奇普·康利：归根结底，文化之所以重要，是因为它确实有帮助，它有助于指导人们做出决策，而且它也能吸引合适的人。
Oracle has a different culture than Apple, which has a different culture than Facebook.
甲骨文与苹果有着不同的文化，而苹果也与 Facebook 有着不同的文化。
You can choose the place you're going to work based upon the culture.
您可以根据文化选择要工作的地方。
There are people who can be very good at what they do, but if they're in the wrong culture, they're in the wrong kind of environment, and they're not willing to shift to fit that culture.
有些人可以非常擅长自己所做的事情，但如果他们处于错误的文化中，他们就处于错误的环境中，并且他们不愿意转变以适应这种文化。
Chip Conley: We saw it at Airbnb all over and over again.
Chip Conley：我们在 Airbnb 上一遍又一遍地看到了这一点。
In fact, Airbnb saw it, I think when with Amazon people.
事实上，我想 Airbnb 在与亚马逊员工合作时就看到了这一点。
Apple people have resonated pretty well at Airbnb, Amazon people, less so.
苹果员工在 Airbnb 上的反响很好，而亚马逊员工的反响则较差。
Those are two different cultures, Amazon and Apple.
这是两种不同的文化，亚马逊和苹果。
Therefore, understanding a culture before you even actually take the job is one of the more important decisions you need to make is like, "Is this culture a culture that I can live with and maybe influence?" There's language about culture fit.
因此，在你真正接受工作之前了解一种文化是你需要做出的更重要的决定之一，比如“这种文化是我可以忍受并可能影响的文化吗？”有关于文化契合度的语言。
Chip Conley: I like to say culture add, because culture fit to me can actually be quite negative toward somebody who is the aberration.
奇普·康利：我喜欢说文化是补充，因为适合我的文化实际上对那些反常的人来说可能是相当负面的。
You have to fit in.
你必须适应。
Especially if this is a demographic thing, a person of color, a gay person, a person in a wheelchair, so you have to fit in.
特别是如果这是一个人口统计问题，一个有色人种，一个同性恋者，一个坐在轮椅上的人，所以你必须融入其中。
A culture add suggests that actually having some diversity on the team is helpful, because it actually adds to the culture.
文化补充表明，团队中实际上具有一定的多样性是有帮助的，因为它实际上增加了文化。
You still have to be able to get along in that culture.
你仍然必须能够在那种文化中相处。
Culture is an intangible.
文化是一种无形的东西。
That's the problem with it is it's hard to measure, but you see its value and you understand whether it's working based upon employee pulse reports and things like that.
这就是它的问题在于它很难衡量，但你可以看到它的价值，并且你可以根据员工脉搏报告等了解它是否有效。
Lenny Rachitsky: You talk about having to understand the culture is such a key part of having success at a company.
Lenny Rachitsky：您谈到必须了解文化是公司取得成功的关键部分。
Do you have any advice for just how to understand the culture for someone interviewing?
对于如何理解面试者的文化，您有什么建议吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
You came in, you work part-time, it's easier to experience it all.
你进来了，你兼职工作，更容易体验这一切。
Any tips there for, "Okay, this is for me, it's not for me?"
对于“好吧，这是给我的，这不是给我的？”有什么建议吗？
Chip Conley: When you're interviewing, you're also interviewing them.
奇普·康利：当你采访时，你也在采访他们。
When you're interviewing, it's not about you having to prove yourself.
当你面试时，并不是要证明自己。
It's also for them to actually prove themselves as a company, and also try to understand if there is some alignment in the company.
他们还可以真正证明自己是一家公司，并尝试了解公司是否存在某种一致性。
The kind of questions I would ask as someone who's being interviewed would be, what are three to five adjectives that define this culture?
作为接受采访的人，我会问的问题是，定义这种文化的三到五个形容词是什么？
What's the biggest problem in this culture, in terms of something that's just endemic or baked in across the organization?
就整个组织中流行或根深蒂固的问题而言，这种文化中最大的问题是什么？
Chip Conley: Is it ever going to get fixed?
Chip Conley：它会得到修复吗？
How could I come in and maybe help that?
我怎么能进来帮忙呢？
Which frankly, at a very junior level, you're not going to be able to help it except for in very minor ways.
坦率地说，在非常初级的水平上，除了非常小的方面之外，你将无法帮助它。
If you're a senior person, you might be able to help it.
如果你是一位资深人士，也许可以提供帮助。
Those are the kind of questions I'd want to know.
这些都是我想知道的问题。
Frankly, if I'm asking that same question about what are the adjectives to multiple people, am I hearing the same thing over and over again?
坦率地说，如果我问同样的问题，关于多个人的形容词是什么，我是否会一遍又一遍地听到同样的事情？
If I'm not, is that because there's not alignment?
如果不是，是不是因为没有对齐？
Is that because different departments have different flavors?
是因为不同的部门有不同的口味吗？
Chip Conley: You could have a culture within a department that's very different than the overall corporate culture.
Chip Conley：部门内的文化可能与整体企业文化截然不同。
The corporate culture certainly has an enormous oppressive influence, but you can be in a culture, a really great culture of a team or a department, in an overall company culture that's not good.
企业文化当然具有巨大的压迫性影响，但你可能处于一种文化中，一个团队或一个部门的真正伟大的文化中，处于一种整体的公司文化中，这并不好。
In the long run, that oppressive company culture is either going to have to evolv,e or your department, you may lose people.
从长远来看，这种压迫性的公司文化要么必须发展，要么你的部门可能会失去人员。
Lenny Rachitsky: When I reflect back on the impact you had at Airbnb, one of the funny things I think about is triangles showing up a lot on decks, and specifically rooted in Maslow's hierarchy, just like everything's this Maslow hierarchy metaphor.
Lenny Rachitsky：当我回顾你对 Airbnb 的影响时，我想到的一件有趣的事情是三角形在甲板上大量出现，并且特别植根于马斯洛层次结构，就像一切都是马斯洛层次结构隐喻一样。
Lenny Rachitsky: This one, I don't know, specific piece of this is you have this kind of model you think about for how to help employees be successful at a company.
Lenny Rachitsky：这个，我不知道，具体的一点是，你有一种你思考的如何帮助员工在公司取得成功的模型。
It's kind of rooted in your Peak book philosophy.
它有点植根于你的 Peak 书籍哲学。
Maybe just talk about that, and then if there's anything else you want to expand on with this power of thinking through the Maslow hierarchy.
也许只是谈论这一点，然后如果您还想通过马斯洛层次思维的力量来扩展其他任何内容。
Chip Conley: Maslow's hierarchy, basically five levels.
Chip Conley：马斯洛的层次结构，基本上有五个层次。
Later in life, he had a seven and an eight level model, but at the base is the kind of physical, water, food, air, and you move up to self-actualization at the top.
在后来的生活中，他有一个七级和八级模型，但底层是身体、水、食物、空气，然后你会上升到顶层的自我实现。
To use this model as a hierarchy of needs for employees, customers, and investors is what the Peak model is about.
使用这个模型作为员工、客户和投资者的需求层次结构就是峰值模型的目的。
The Peak, my book.
《山顶》，我的书。
The employee model is really simple.
员工模型非常简单。
It's money or compensation at the base, recognition in the middle, and meaning at the top.
底层是金钱或补偿，中间是认可，顶层是意义。
Chip Conley: Now, there are some industries and some kinds of jobs in which money is 90% of the pyramid.
Chip Conley：现在，在某些行业和某些工作中，金钱占据了金字塔的 90%。
Just because of the base doesn't mean it's not the dominant part of the pyramid, but the differentiation often is in recognition and meaning.
仅仅因为基础并不意味着它不是金字塔的主导部分，但差异通常在于认知和意义。
In nonprofits, usually the money piece of it's rather thin.
在非营利组织中，通常所获得的资金相当薄弱。
The recognition's this, and meaning's huge.
认可就是这样，意义重大。
Understanding how do you create an organization, and I gave a TED Talk in 2010 about this topic as well, how do you measure the intangibles of meaning and how do you create an environment where people feel a sense of meaning?
了解如何创建一个组织，我在 2010 年的 TED 演讲中也谈到了这个主题，如何衡量无形的意义以及如何创建一个让人们感受到意义感的环境？
Chip Conley: The customer pyramid, briefly, I'll just say that one, is meeting expectations is the base, meeting desires is in the middle, and then meeting unrecognized needs.
Chip Conley：客户金字塔，简单来说，我只想说一，满足期望是基础，满足欲望是中间，然后是满足未被认识到的需求。
I think one of the things that we did at Airbnb about a year after I joined, and when Jonathan Goldenhall was joining, is we really tried to ask ourselves, "Are we in the home sharing business, or are we in some kind of business that is even bigger and broader than that?" Ultimately, we came up with the idea that we were in the belong anywhere business.
我认为，在我加入 Airbnb 大约一年后，当乔纳森·戈登霍尔 (Jonathan Goldenhall) 加入时，我们所做的一件事是，我们真的试着问自己：“我们是在从事房屋共享业务，还是在从事某种比这更大、更广泛的业务？”最终，我们想到了我们从事“归属于任何地方”的业务。
Chip Conley: Airbnb was not in home sharing, we were in belonging anywhere.
Chip Conley：Airbnb 不属于家庭共享，我们在任何地方都有归属感。
Once you have that down, that was sort of the unrecognized need at the top of the pyramid.
一旦你明白了这一点，这就是金字塔顶端未被认识到的需求。
Then that becomes an organizing principle for how do you teach your hosts to create a sense of belonging?
那么这就成为了你如何教导主人创造归属感的组织原则？
How does our marketing and advertising play up the belonging piece, especially and the everywhere piece, because hotels are not everywhere, but homes are?
我们的营销和广告如何突出归属感，尤其是无处不在的部分，因为酒店不是无处不在，但家却无处不在？
I would just say that this model, the idea of hierarchies is, I think, very helpful.
我只想说，我认为这种模型、层次结构的想法非常有帮助。
Yeah, my book Peak has been around for 18 years, but I still am asked to give 20 or 30 speeches a year on it.
是的，我的书《巅峰》已经问世 18 年了，但我仍然被要求每年就这本书发表 20 到 30 场演讲。
Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：哦，伙计。
This pyramid of comp, recognition, meaning is really interesting, especially these days, because with all this AI researcher poaching, there's all this talk of just like, "Will people just go work wherever they get the most money, or is there a mission and meaning to the work they're doing that will keep them not taking a hundred million dollars offer?" Seems to be happening in a lot of cases, which shows you the power of meaning.
这个由报酬、认可、意义组成的金字塔真的很有趣，尤其是在现在，因为随着人工智能研究人员的挖角，人们都在谈论这样的问题：“人们会去钱最多的地方工作，还是他们正在做的工作有一个使命和意义，让他们不会接受一亿美元的工作？”似乎在很多情况下都在发生，这让你看到了意义的力量。
Chip Conley: Yeah.
奇普·康利：是的。
If you know you're working for a toxic company, at some point, your conscience kicks in.
如果你知道自己在一家有毒的公司工作，那么在某些时候，你的良心就会开始发作。
Whether it's toxic in terms of the purpose of the company, toxic in terms of the leadership or the culture, life is too short.
无论是对公司的宗旨、领导力还是文化来说都是有毒的，生命太短暂了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
You've had two major shifts in your career.
您的职业生涯经历了两次重大转变。
You started the hotel chain, then you went to Airbnb.
你创办了连锁酒店，然后又去了 Airbnb。
Most recently, the Airbnb experience, I imagine, led you to starting something called the Modern Elder Academy.
最近，我想，Airbnb 的经历让您创办了一个名为“现代老年学院”的机构。
Talk about what is the Modern Elder Academy?
谈谈什么是现代老年学院？
Chip Conley: Yeah, what is going on with that Modern Elder Academy?
奇普·康利：是啊，现代老年学院怎么样了？
The Modern Elder Academy.
现代老年学院。
There was a couple times where I was called the Modern Elder at Airbnb, and then I was told that a Modern Elder is someone who's as curious as they are wise.
有几次，我在 Airbnb 被称为“现代长者”，然后我被告知，“现代长者”是一个既好奇又聪明的人。
Jonathan Mildenhall, who is the chief marketing officer at Airbnb, used to call me the Modern Elder as well, and he said, "If you ever create a school, Modern Elder would be a good name."
Airbnb 的首席营销官乔纳森·米尔登霍尔 (Jonathan Mildenhall) 也曾叫我“现代长者”，他说：“如果你要创建一所学校，“现代长者”将是一个好名字。”
Chip Conley: We talked about it, and next thing I knew, I was saying, "Okay, this is called the Modern Elder Academy." We now call it MEA because elder is a fraught word on some level, it makes you sound elderly.
奇普·康利：我们讨论过这个问题，接下来我就说，“好吧，这就是现代老年学院。”我们现在称之为“MEA”，因为“长辈”在某种程度上是一个令人担忧的词，它让你听起来很老。
What I really wanted to create was a place where people could come and do a workshop, they're five day workshops in Baja on the beach, or in Santa Fe on a big four square mile horse ranch, and reimagine and repurpose yourself, and navigate transitions.
我真正想创造的是一个人们可以来参加研讨会的地方，他们是在巴哈的海滩上或在圣达菲的一个四平方英里的大马场上举办的为期五天的研讨会，重新想象和重新定位自己，并导航过渡。
Chip Conley: We go through so many transitions in the middle of our life, let's say between, I define midlife as 35 to 75, guys.
Chip Conley：我们在中年经历了很多转变，比如说，我将中年定义为 35 岁到 75 岁，伙计们。
It's a very long life stage.
这是一个非常漫长的人生阶段。
We go through a lot of transitions.
我们经历了很多转变。
We are constantly evolving our purpose.
我们不断发展我们的目标。
We're building our wisdom.
我们正在培养我们的智慧。
We have knowledge management tools out there, but we're the wisdom management tools.
我们有知识管理工具，但我们是智慧管理工具。
We're the tools that help us to get wiser over time, and then we need to reframe our relationship with getting older.
我们是帮助我们随着时间的推移变得更加明智的工具，然后我们需要重新构建我们与变老的关系。
Becca Levy has shown at Yale that when you shift your mindset on aging from a negative to a positive, you get seven and a half years of additional life, which is more life than any other biohack that's being done right now.
贝卡·利维（Becca Levy）在耶鲁大学的研究表明，当你将自己对衰老的看法从消极转向积极时，你的寿命就会增加七年半，这比目前正在进行的任何其他生物黑客技术都长。
Chip Conley: That's what we do, and we have 7,000 grads from 60 countries, and 56 regional chapters around the world.
Chip Conley：这就是我们所做的，我们拥有来自 60 个国家的 7,000 名毕业生，在全球设有 56 个地区分会。
It's a bit of a movement, and I teach.
这是一个小小的运动，我教。
I teach some of the workshops, and we have all kinds of famous people who come and teach.
我在一些研讨会上授课，我们有各种各样的名人来授课。
For me, creating the world's first midlife wisdom school just feels like the natural next thing for me to do.
对我来说，创建世界上第一所中年智慧学校感觉就像是我接下来要做的自然而然的事情。
I love hospitality, so it's a very upscale kind of experience, but we have scholarships.
我喜欢热情好客，所以这是一种非常高档的体验，但我们有奖学金。
I love retreat centers.
我喜欢静修中心。
I was on the board of the Esalen Institute in Big Sur for 10 years.
我在大苏尔伊莎兰研究所 (Esalen Institute) 的董事会任职了 10 年。
I love wellness.
我热爱健康。
Chip Conley: I've owned the Kabuki Springs and Spa for 28 years, which is the largest spa in San Francisco, and I love education.
Chip Conley：我拥有 Kabuki Springs and Spa 已经 28 年了，这是旧金山最大的水疗中心，我热爱教育。
My book, Wisdom at Work: The Making of a Modern Elder, gave me a curriculum in which we've expanded quite a bit with Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and UC, Berkeley professors helping us create a curriculum around midlife.
我的书《工作中的智慧：现代老年人的塑造》为我提供了一个课程，我们在哈佛大学、耶鲁大学、斯坦福大学、加州大学伯克利分校的教授帮助我们创建围绕中年的课程的基础上进行了相当多的扩展。
That's how MEA came about.
MEA 就是这样诞生的。
Lenny Rachitsky: To your point, I forget who said, I think you said Jonathan has said this was a natural next step for you, I completely agree.
Lenny Rachitsky：就你的观点而言，我忘记了是谁说的，我想你说乔纳森已经说过这对你来说是自然而然的下一步，我完全同意。
It's like, looking back, this is the obvious thing you should be doing right now.
回想起来，这显然是你现在应该做的事情。
Lenny Rachitsky: Also, I'm learning more things about you.
Lenny Rachitsky：另外，我对你的了解也越来越多。
I didn't know you were involved with the Kabuki Spa.
我不知道你参与了歌舞伎水疗中心。
I think Esalen and I knew, you just keep getting more interested.
我想伊莎伦和我都知道，你只是越来越感兴趣。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a couple threads here I want to actually follow.
Lenny Rachitsky：这里有一些我想真正关注的话题。
This point you made about shifting your mindset to aging as a positive thing helps you live longer.
您提出的这一点是关于将您的心态转变为衰老，因为积极的事情可以帮助您活得更久。
That's such a powerful point.
这是一个非常有力的观点。
Can you just speak more to that, just what does that look like?
你能多说一点吗，那是什么样子的？
Chip Conley: Yeah, there's lots of data points.
Chip Conley：是的，有很多数据点。
I'll talk about two.
我就讲两个吧。
One is this Becca Levy study, which has been going on for 15 to 20 years.
其中一项是 Becca Levy 的研究，该研究已经持续了 15 到 20 年。
If you sort of buy into the ageism of American society or Hallmark cards, when you get a card at age 40, 50, or beyond, there's a belief that life gets worse as you get older.
如果你接受了美国社会的年龄歧视或 Hallmark 卡，那么当你在 40 岁、50 岁或更老的时候拿到一张卡时，你就会相信，随着年龄的增长，生活会变得更糟。
If you can survive your midlife crisis, all you have to look forward to is disease, decrepitude, and death.
如果你能度过中年危机，你所期待的就是疾病、衰老和死亡。
The bottom line is there's a lot of things that get better with age.
最重要的是，随着年龄的增长，很多事情都会变得更好。
I wrote a book called Learning to Love Midlife.
我写了一本书，叫《学会爱中年》。
Chip Conley: The subtitle says it all: 12 Reasons Why Life Gets Better with Age.
奇普·康利：副标题说明了一切：随着年龄的增长，生活变得更好的 12 个原因。
What I really wanted to do with that book, which is really, it summarizes the MEA curriculum, I wanted to write a book that sort of helped people to see the upside of aging, the unexpected pleasures of aging.
我真正想用那本书做什么，它总结了 MEA 课程，我想写一本帮助人们看到衰老的好处，看到衰老带来的意想不到的乐趣。
They had a pro-aging, not just an anti-aging point of view.
他们有促进衰老的观点，而不仅仅是抗衰老的观点。
When you actually have a pro-aging point of view and you see the upside of aging, you take better care of yourself, both your mind and your body.
当你真正持有支持衰老的观点并且看到衰老的好处时，你就会更好地照顾自己，包括你的思想和身体。
You actually are willing to learn and try new things.
你实际上愿意学习和尝试新事物。
Chip Conley: One of my favorite MEA questions is, 10 years from now, what will you regret if you don't learn it or do it now?
Chip Conley：我最喜欢的 MEA 问题之一是，10 年后，如果你现在不学习或不做，你会后悔什么？
It's a powerful question, really important question as we get older.
这是一个有力的问题，随着我们年龄的增长，这个问题非常重要。
When you're young, you've got all of your life left ahead of you.
当你还年轻的时候，你的一生都还剩下。
When I moved to Baja part-time in Mexico at age 56, I had a mindset which was, "I'm too old to learn Spanish.
当我 56 岁时搬到墨西哥巴哈做兼职时，我的心态是：“我已经太老了，学不了西班牙语了。
I'm too old to learn to surf," but when I said, "10 years from now, what will I regret if I don't learn it or it now?" I said, "Well, 10 years from now, I might still be living in Baja.
我已经太老了，学不了冲浪了。”但是当我说，“10年后，如果我不学或者现在就学，我会后悔什么？”我说：“好吧，十年后，我可能仍然住在巴哈。
I should learn Spanish, I should learn how to surf because we're right next to a surf break."
我应该学习西班牙语，我应该学习如何冲浪，因为我们就在冲浪胜地旁边。”
Chip Conley: I did.
奇普·康利：我做到了。
What I believe is that anticipated regret is a form of wisdom, and it's a catalyst for taking action.
我相信预期的后悔是一种智慧，它是采取行动的催化剂。
That's one data point.
这是一个数据点。
The other data point is something called the U-curve of happiness, and it's been around for 20 years, and it shows the following.
另一个数据点是所谓的幸福 U 曲线，它已经存在了 20 年，它显示了以下内容。
It has changed in the last couple of years because young adults are unhappy like never before.
过去几年情况发生了变化，因为年轻人前所未有地不快乐。
A 20 or a 22-year-old, really unhappy, 24-year-old, really unhappy.
20岁、22岁，真的不快乐，24岁，真的不快乐。
Chip Conley: Historically, the way it was is you were happy from 18 to 23 or 24, and then around 23 or 24, you start to see a long, slow decline in life satisfaction that actually bottoms out between 45 and 50.
奇普·康利：从历史上看，你从 18 岁到 23 岁或 24 岁都很快乐，然后在 23 岁或 24 岁左右，你开始看到生活满意度长期缓慢下降，实际上在 45 岁到 50 岁之间触底。
I'm sorry to tell you that, Lenny, since you're 44, but your mileage may vary.
我很遗憾地告诉你，莱尼，因为你已经 44 岁了，但你的里程可能会有所不同。
Lenny Rachitsky: You're saying I'm the least happy I'll ever be.
Lenny Rachitsky：你是说我是我这辈子最不快乐的时候了。
That's only upside.
这只是好处。
That's great.
那太棒了。
Yeah.
是的。
Chip Conley: Well, here's the part that's weird is that before this research was done, and it's global research across all demographics, what they found was starting around age 50 or 52, you get happier, so that you're happier in your fifties than your forties, sixties, fifties, seventies, happier than sixties, and the women in their eighties, happier than seventies.
奇普·康利：嗯，奇怪的是，在这项研究完成之前，这是针对所有人口统计数据的全球研究，他们发现从 50 岁或 52 岁左右开始，你会变得更快乐，所以你在 50 岁时比 40 岁、60 岁、50 岁、70 岁更快乐，比 60 岁更快乐，而 80 岁的女性比 70 岁更快乐。
Wow.
哇。
It's partly because we are in around 45 to 50, doing this thing called the midlife unraveling, what Brené Brown calls the midlife unraveling.
部分原因是我们处于 45 岁到 50 岁之间，正在经历所谓的“中年解体”，Brené Brown 称之为“中年解体”。
Chip Conley: You're unraveling your expectations, what you define as success, your definition of what a beautiful body looks like, and you're liberated into freedom in your fifties and beyond.
奇普·康利：你正在解开你的期望，你对成功的定义，你对美丽身体的定义，并且你在五十多岁时获得了自由。
I can say that, yeah, I'm happier today at 64 than I was at 47 when I was going through my flatline experience, and not wanting to run my company anymore.
我可以说，是的，今天 64 岁的我比 47 岁时更快乐，当时我正在经历平淡的经历，并且不想再经营我的公司。
Lenny Rachitsky: You used this term earlier, the midlife chrysalis, was that what it was?
Lenny Rachitsky：你之前用过这个词，中年蛹，是这样的吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: Chrysalis.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：蛹。
What is that?
那是什么？
Is that kind of along the same lines?
这是同样的路线吗？
Chip Conley: If you think about the caterpillar to butterfly journey, midlife is the chrysalis.
奇普·康利：如果你想想毛毛虫到蝴蝶的旅程，中年就是蛹。
It's that cocoon in which all of the change is happening.
所有的变化都在这个茧中发生。
At the time, when you're going through it, it's like, "Oh, shit.
那时，当你经历它的时候，就像是，“哦，该死。
My life is liquefying in front of myself." On the other side of it, there's a metamorphosis that happens.
我的生命正在我自己面前液化。”另一方面，发生了转变。
Chip Conley: I like to use the language, in fact, I have a podcast called The Midlife Chrysalis, because I want to help change the dialogue around midlife, so that the number one word attached to midlife is not crisis, but in fact, it's maybe chrysalis, and the idea that life is meant to be transformative during that era.
奇普·康利：我喜欢用这种语言，事实上，我有一个播客，叫《中年蛹》，因为我想帮助改变围绕中年的对话，让中年的第一个词不是危机，但事实上，它可能是蛹，以及那个时代的生活意味着变革的想法。
Lenny Rachitsky: That is actually very empowering.
Lenny Rachitsky：这实际上非常有力量。
I am sort of going through that, not necessarily in this intense way yet, but that might be coming.
我正在经历这个过程，虽然还不一定是以这种激烈的方式，但那可能会到来。
You said there's a bunch of upsides to getting older.
你说过变老有很多好处。
It might be helpful just to share a couple of those things for folks that are like, "Oh, wow, I didn't realize that."
对于那些“哦，哇，我没有意识到这一点”的人来说，分享一些这样的事情可能会有所帮助。
Chip Conley: Emotional intelligence grows with age.
奇普·康利：情商随着年龄的增长而增长。
Our wisdom can grow with age, although we know 70-year-olds who are not as wise as 30-year-olds, so it's a matter of what you do with your life experience.
我们的智慧会随着年龄的增长而增长，尽管我们知道70岁的人不如30岁的人聪明，所以这取决于你如何利用你的生活经历。
I define wisdom as metabolized experience, mindfully shared for the common good.
我将智慧定义为新陈代谢的经验，为了共同利益而用心分享。
What else gets better with age?
随着年龄的增长，还有什么会变得更好？
You learn how to edit.
您将学习如何编辑。
You have no more Fs left to give, no more fucks left to give.
你已经没有更多的Fs可以给予，没有更多的操蛋可以给予。
That is absolutely true, especially for women as they age.
这绝对是事实，尤其是对于上了年纪的女性来说。
You are more spiritually curious.
你在精神上更加好奇。
The list is long, and so there are a lot of things that, actually, another one that I love is you're not compartmentalized.
这个清单很长，所以有很多事情，实际上，我喜欢的另一件事是你没有被划分。
Chip Conley: When you're younger, you're compartmentalized.
奇普·康利：当你年轻的时候，你会被划分。
As you grow older, you are growing whole, and that means you're alchemizing curiosity and wisdom, introvert, extrovert, masculine, feminine, gravitas, depth, and levity, lightness.
随着年龄的增长，你正在变得完整，这意味着你正在炼金术般的好奇心和智慧、内向、外向、阳刚、阴柔、庄严、深度、轻浮、轻松。
The people who I really admire who are 85 years old, they're so present and they're so whole.
我真正敬佩的那些85岁高龄的人，他们是如此的活在当下，他们是如此的完整。
They are just who they are.
他们就是他们。
Lenny Rachitsky: There's a quote I found from you along these lines, the societal narrative on aging is just don't do it.
Lenny Rachitsky：我从你那里找到了一句话，关于衰老的社会叙事是不要这样做。
Chip Conley: Fantastic.
奇普·康利：太棒了。
Yeah.
是的。
We sort of say we don't want to age, but we do want to live.
我们常说我们不想变老，但我们确实想活下去。
Quite frankly, aging and living are the same thing, as are aging and growing.
坦率地说，衰老和生活是同一回事，衰老和成长也是同一回事。
Lenny Rachitsky: Coming back to MEA, just for folks that are interested, curious about this, who's this for, would you say?
Lenny Rachitsky：回到 MEA，只是为了那些对此感兴趣、好奇的人，你觉得这是给谁的？
Who should seriously look into this program?
谁应该认真研究这个计划？
Chip Conley: MEA is really, the people who tend to come to MEA are in the midst of a transition.
Chip Conley：MEA 确实如此，那些倾向于来到 MEA 的人正处于转型之中。
It could be selling their company, leaving a job, getting divorced, having kids, becoming an empty nester, taking care of parents till they're passing away, having a health diagnosis that's scary.
可能是出售公司、辞职、离婚、生孩子、成为空巢老人、照顾父母直到他们去世、进行可怕的健康诊断。
Average age is 54, and it's people of all walks of life.
平均年龄54岁，来自各行各业。
It's not just the tech industry, but it's very popular in the tech industry.
这不仅是科技行业，而且在科技行业非常受欢迎。
It's people who are looking to maybe do a reframe of their purpose, and maybe even a reinvention of their career.
这些人可能正在寻求重新构建自己的目标，甚至可能重塑自己的职业生涯。
Chip Conley: Yeah, the two campuses are just gorgeous.
奇普·康利：是的，两个校区都很漂亮。
It's been called the Four Seasons meets Blue Zones meets the Esalen Institute, which I like.
它被称为“四个季节遇上蓝色区域遇上伊莎伦学院”，我喜欢这个。
We have online programs too, and so you don't have to come to either of our campuses in Mexico, or on the beach, or in New Mexico.
我们也有在线课程，因此您不必来到我们在墨西哥、海滩或新墨西哥州的任何一个校区。
You can actually do it online.
您实际上可以在线完成。
Lenny Rachitsky: Those three, yeah, that's the tagline.
Lenny Rachitsky：这三个，是的，这就是口号。
That's your tagline right there.
这就是你的口号。
Esalen meets Blue Zones, meets what was the first one?
伊莎兰遇见蓝色地带，遇见第一个是什么？
Lenny Rachitsky: Nailed it.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：成功了。
Okay.
好的。
I'm going to zoom out and take us to a recurring segment on this podcast.
我将把镜头拉远，带我们进入这个播客中重复出现的部分。
I want to see if this goes anywhere, AI Corner, and with AI Corner, ask guests, what's a way that you've found AI useful in your work or in your life, any kind of trick you've learned, any workflow, anything you've found useful?
我想看看这是否会在任何地方发挥作用，人工智能角，通过人工智能角，问客人，你发现人工智能在你的工作或生活中有用的方式是什么，你学到了什么技巧，任何工作流程，你发现任何有用的东西？
Chip Conley: Yeah, I have a daily blog.
Chip Conley：是的，我有一个每日博客。
It's called Wisdom Well, and it's on the MEA website.
它被称为 Wisdom Well，位于 MEA 网站上。
When I'm looking for inspiration, AI does it for me, and ultimately, it gives me a first draft.
当我寻找灵感时，人工智能会为我做这件事，最终，它会给我一份初稿。
That's good enough for me then to say, "Okay." There's times when I'm missing the inspiration.
这足以让我说：“好吧。”有时我会失去灵感。
I tend to write really well in the morning.
我倾向于早上写得很好。
Chip Conley: If it's any other time of the day, I do not like writing creatively.
奇普·康利：如果是一天中的其他时间，我不喜欢创造性地写作。
If I have a deadline for tomorrow and it's five o'clock in the afternoon, it's like, "Okay, ChatGPT.
如果我明天有截止日期，并且是下午五点，我会说：“好吧，ChatGPT。
I'm on my way to you." I tend to use ChatGPT the most because I don't know, I like Claude as well, but yeah.
我正在去找你的路上。”我最倾向于使用 ChatGPT，因为我不知道，我也喜欢 Claude，但是是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, awesome.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，太棒了。
I was going to ask which tool you use.
我想问一下你用的是什么工具。
What's your workflow there?
你在那里的工作流程是什么？
Is it you use voice mode?
你用的是语音模式吗？
Do you just type out, "Here's what I'm thinking about, write me a little drop blog post?"
您是否只是输入“这就是我的想法，请给我写一篇简短的博客文章？”
Chip Conley: The good news is that at this point, it knows me well enough and my blogs, and I've actually, it knows my weird sense of humor, so it's able to ape me pretty well.
Chip Conley：好消息是，在这一点上，它足够了解我和我的博客，而且实际上，它知道我奇怪的幽默感，所以它能够很好地模仿我。
I'll just say, "I need a 250 word post on," like today, today's post was a post that ChatGPT helped me with it.
我只会说，“我需要一篇 250 字的帖子”，就像今天一样，今天的帖子是 ChatGPT 帮助我完成的。
I said, "I believe that there's a refrain that needs to happen with the soul.
我说：“我相信灵魂需要克制。
We tend to say, 'I have a soul, or I don't have a soul,' but what if my soul has me?
我们倾向于说，“我有灵魂，或者我没有灵魂”，但如果我的灵魂有我呢？
What if in fact, my job is just to be this vehicle for my soul to go to the next lifetime?"
如果事实上，我的工作只是成为我的灵魂前往下辈子的载体呢？”
Chip Conley: My job is to be this steward of the soul.
奇普·康利：我的工作就是成为灵魂的管家。
I said, "Write me something around that." It was just a weird idea.
我说：“给我写一些关于这个的东西。”这只是一个奇怪的想法。
Of course, not all my blog posts are so new age, and I like that.
当然，并非我所有的博客文章都是新时代的，我喜欢这一点。
I write a lot on leadership, but that was one that within 30 seconds, I had a 250 word blog post that I then adapted, and there you go.
我写了很多关于领导力的文章，但那是在 30 秒内，我写了一篇 250 字的博客文章，然后我对其进行了改编，就这样了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Chip, we've covered a lot of ground.
Chip，我们已经介绍了很多内容。
We've gone through your entire life.
我们走过了你的一生。
Maybe actually just the tip of the iceberg.
也许实际上只是冰山一角。
With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round.
至此，我们进入了非常激动人心的闪电回合。
I've got five questions for you.
我有五个问题要问你。
Are you ready?
你准备好了吗？
Lenny Rachitsky: First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
Lenny Rachitsky：第一个问题，您发现自己最向其他人推荐的两三本书是什么？
Chip Conley: My favorite book of all time, Man's Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl in a concentration camp in World War II.
奇普·康利：我一直以来最喜欢的书，《人类寻找意义》，《维克多·弗兰克尔在二战集中营》。
When someone's going through a hard time in their life, I say, "Read that book.
当有人在生活中经历困难时期时，我会说：“读那本书。
You'll realize it's not so bad, what you're going through." It also really speaks to this idea of despair equals suffering, minus meaning.
你会意识到你正在经历的事情并没有那么糟糕。”它也真正说明了这种想法：绝望等于痛苦，失去了意义。
I wrote a book called Emotional Equations that was a New York Times bestseller that spoke to this idea that what if you could take all of your emotions and turn them into equations?
我写了一本名为《情感方程》的书，这本书是《纽约时报》的畅销书，书中谈到了这样一个想法：如果你可以把所有的情绪转化为方程，会怎么样？
Chip Conley: Very engineering-minded of me.
Chip Conley：我非常有工程头脑。
That's one.
这是一个。
I love any book by Liz Gilbert, sort of the opposite.
我喜欢莉兹·吉尔伯特的任何一本书，但恰恰相反。
Elizabeth Gilbert wrote Eat, Pray, Love.
伊丽莎白·吉尔伯特写了《美食、祈祷和爱》。
Her book, she's on faculty at MEA.
她的书，她是 MEA 的教员。
She teaches here.
她在这里教书。
Big Magic is just a beautiful book about sort of how do you get in the flow to allow the genie to come through you.
《大魔法》是一本精美的书，讲述了如何进入流动状态，让精灵穿过你。
Her Ted Talk in 2009 was about the fact that genius is not about being the genius yourself.
她在 2009 年的 Ted Talk 讲的是这样一个事实：天才并不意味着你自己就是天才。
It's about being the receptacle for the genie to come through you.
这是关于成为精灵通过你而来的容器。
Lenny Rachitsky: I want to come back to this equation you shared.
Lenny Rachitsky：我想回到你分享的这个方程。
I was going to get to it, but I didn't, so this is a good opportunity to.
我本想这么做，但我没有，所以这是一个很好的机会。
There's a couple that are really interesting to me.
有一对夫妇对我来说非常有趣。
This is, you wrote about these in a book.
这是，你在一本书中写到了这些。
You have a bunch of these equations about living a happier life.
你有一堆关于过上幸福生活的方程式。
The one you shared is despair equals suffering, minus meaning.
你分享的是绝望等于痛苦，失去了意义。
Lenny Rachitsky: The implication there is if you want less despair, increase the meaning.
Lenny Rachitsky：这意味着如果你想要减少绝望，就增加意义。
Chip Conley: Suffering, Buddhist philosophy, the first noble truth of Buddhism is that suffering is ever-present.
奇普·康利：苦难，佛教哲学，佛教的第一圣谛是苦难永远存在。
If suffering's a constant and you have two variables, using some algebra, I guess, you know that if you have more meaning, you have less suffering.
如果痛苦是一个常数，而你有两个变量，使用一些代数，我想，你就会知道，如果你有更多的意义，你就会有更少的痛苦。
That's that one.
就是那个。
Lenny Rachitsky: The other one that I love is anxiety equals uncertainty times powerlessness.
Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢的另一件事是焦虑等于不确定性乘以无力感。
Maybe talk about that one briefly.
也许简单地谈谈这一点。
Chip Conley: 98% of anxiety comes from two sources.
Chip Conley：98%的焦虑有两个来源。
One is what you don't know, and number two is what you can't control or influence, and based upon social science.
一是你不知道的事情，二是你无法控制或影响的事情，并且基于社会科学。
You can create an anxiety balance sheet and create four columns.
您可以创建焦虑资产负债表并创建四列。
First column is what is it you do know about the thing that's making you anxious?
第一栏是您对让您焦虑的事情了解多少？
The second column is, what is it you don't know?
第二栏是，你不知道什么？
The third column is what is it you can control or influence?
第三栏是你可以控制或影响什么？
The fourth column is what is it you can't control or influence?
第四栏是你无法控制或影响的是什么？
Chip Conley: When you take free-floating anxiety and put it into an equation, it actually makes it more tangible, and you often are less anxious as a result.
奇普·康利：当你将自由浮动的焦虑放入一个等式中时，实际上它会变得更加明显，结果你通常不会那么焦虑。
Lenny Rachitsky: Boom.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：繁荣。
Okay, so if you're feeling anxious right now, this is an exercise you can do and you'll feel less anxious in like five minutes is what I'm hearing.
好吧，如果你现在感到焦虑，你可以做这个练习，据我所知，五分钟后你就会感觉不那么焦虑了。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, excellent.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，非常好。
Very, very good nugget of advice.
非常非常好的建议。
Okay, let's keep going with the lightning round.
好吧，让我们继续闪电回合。
Come back from our tangent.
从我们的切线回来。
Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?
您最近有最喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
Chip Conley: Ted Lasso is, I'm a sucker for that show.
奇普·康利：特德·拉索是，我很喜欢那个节目。
When it comes to movies, I'm a total movie buff.
说到电影，我是个十足的电影迷。
We have an annual MEA Film Festival at our Santa Fe campus.
我们在圣达菲校区举办一年一度的 MEA 电影节。
I would say that the film that I'm most excited about that is coming out that most people have never heard of, it's called I'll Push You.
我想说的是，我最兴奋的电影即将上映，大多数人从未听说过，它的名字叫《我推你》。
It's the story of two guys, one of whom is in a degenerative health condition and in a wheelchair, and his best friend pushes him the 500 miles of the Camino de Santiago, and it's the relationship they build along that way.
这是两个人的故事，其中一个人的健康状况不佳，坐在轮椅上，他最好的朋友推着他走完了 500 英里的圣地亚哥卡米诺之路，这是他们一路上建立的关系。
Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。
Very deep cut.
切口非常深。
Do you have a favorite product that you recently discovered that you really love?
您最近发现自己真正喜欢的最喜欢的产品有吗？
Chip Conley: Yes.
奇普·康利：是的。
Hair growing material.
生发材料。
No. Do you know Viori shorts?
不，你知道 Viori 短裤吗？
I sound like Scott Galloway because he advertises this, but Viori shorts are like, I just love them.
我听起来像斯科特·加洛韦（Scott Galloway），因为他做了广告，但维奥里短裤就像，我就是喜欢它们。
They're just breathe and they're comfortable.
他们只是呼吸并且很舒服。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm wearing Viori joggers right now.
Lenny Rachitsky：我现在穿着 Viori 慢跑裤。
The one downside of Viori, not to make anyone mad, is they're kind of plasticky if you look at the material.
Viori 的一个缺点（不要让任何人生气）是，如果你看一下材料，它们有点塑料。
I'm trying to like, I don't know, but I do love, there's nothing better.
我试着去喜欢，我不知道，但我确实爱，没有比这更好的了。
That's the problem.
这就是问题所在。
Anything else like this that is all cotton.
像这样的其他东西都是纯棉的。
Lenny Rachitsky: I'm a fan.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：我是一个粉丝。
I have many Viori, I don't know if they're called joggers, just, I don't know, weekenders or something.
我有很多 Viori，我不知道他们是否被称为慢跑者，只是，我不知道，周末者或其他什么。
Anyway, love you, Viori.
不管怎样，爱你，维奥里。
Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to and find really useful in work or in life?
您是否有一条最喜欢的人生格言，经常回想并发现它在工作或生活中非常有用？
I imagine you have many, but is there one that comes to mind?
我想你可能有很多，但有哪一个是你想到的呢？
Chip Conley: My favorite one right now is your painful life lessons are the raw material for your future wisdom.
奇普·康利：我现在最喜欢的一件事是你痛苦的人生教训是你未来智慧的原材料。
The premise of that is that wisdom often comes through the school of hard knocks.
其前提是，智慧往往来自于艰难的磨练。
When you're in the midst of a really challenging time, you are developing your future wisdom that's going to be valuable to you.
当你正处于一个真正具有挑战性的时刻时，你正在发展对你来说有价值的未来智慧。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, final question.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的，最后一个问题。
You were on the board of Burning Man, or you still are?
您曾经是火人节的董事会成员，还是现在仍然是？
Chip Conley: I helped found the board of Burning Man.
奇普·康利：我帮助创立了火人节的董事会。
Yeah.
是的。
Lenny Rachitsky: Okay.
莱尼·拉奇茨基：好的。
No big deal.
没什么大不了的。
I don't know if you know this, I got married at Burning Man.
我不知道你是否知道，我在火人节结婚了。
We had an unofficial wedding there on bicycles, so it's really meaningful to us.
我们骑着自行车在那里举行了一场非正式婚礼，所以这对我们来说真的很有意义。
I've been there four or five times.
我已经去过四五次了。
What's something about Burning Man that maybe people don't know, some inside story or a really unexpected piece of the journey?
关于火人节，有哪些人们可能不知道的事情，一些内幕故事，还是旅程中真正意想不到的部分？
I may imagine there's a lot, but what comes to mind?
我可能想象有很多，但我想到了什么？
Chip Conley: I would say the best not well-known thing about Burning Man is that Burning Man own owns a place called Fly Ranch.
奇普·康利：我想说，关于火人节最不为人所知的一点是，火人节拥有一个叫做“飞翔牧场”的地方。
Fly Ranch is about 10 miles from Burning Man.
Fly Ranch 距离火人节 (Burning Man) 约 10 英里。
Now, when you go to the Burn, the event around Labor Day, you cannot go over there.
现在，当你去参加劳动节前后的“烧伤”活动时，你不能去那里。
It's locked off.
它被锁了。
It's 3,400 acres.
占地3,400英亩。
If you look at Fly Ranch, FlyRanch.org, I think it might even be, or it's on the Burning Man site, Fly Ranch is the opposite of Burning Man.
如果你看看 Fly Ranch，FlyRanch.org，我想它甚至可能是，或者在火人节网站上，Fly Ranch 与火人节相反。
Burning Man is this alkaline desert.
火人节就是这片碱性沙漠。
Chip Conley: There's no living life there at all.
奇普·康利：那里根本没有生命。
It's very masculine.
这是非常有男子气概的。
Fly Ranch is porous, and lots of desert grasses, and hot springs, and hot pools, and birds, and wild horses, and it's one of my favorite hot springs places in the world.
飞蝇牧场是多孔的，有很多沙漠草、温泉、热水池、鸟类和野马，它是世界上我最喜欢的温泉地之一。
Just check it out, and you can go there when it's not during the event.
看看吧，活动以外的时候也可以去。
It's quite beautiful.
非常漂亮。
Lenny Rachitsky: It feels like it might've inspired MEA in many ways.
Lenny Rachitsky：感觉它可能在很多方面给 MEA 带来了启发。
Lenny Rachitsky: Chip, two final questions.
Lenny Rachitsky：Chip，最后两个问题。
Where can folks find you online, and how can listeners be useful to you?
人们可以在网上哪里找到您？听众如何对您有用？
Chip Conley: Online, MEAWisdom.com is the website for MEA.
Chip Conley：在线，MEAWisdom.com 是 MEA 的网站。
My website is ChipConley.com, C-O-N-L-E-Y, and I'm on LinkedIn.
我的网站是 ChipConley.com，C-O-N-L-E-Y，我的帐号是 LinkedIn。
That's really, from a social media perspective, the thing that I do the most.
从社交媒体的角度来看，这确实是我做的最多的事情。
I actually take my daily blogs and put them on LinkedIn.
事实上，我每天都会写博客并将它们放在 LinkedIn 上。
Then what your community can do, just come say hi, come check me out.
那么你的社区可以做什么，只是来打个招呼，来看看我。
If wisdom's interesting to you, and I think wisdom should be interesting to everybody here, on the MEA website, at the very bottom footer, you'll see a bunch of free resources.
如果你对智慧感兴趣，而且我认为这里的每个人都应该对智慧感兴趣，在 MEA 网站的最底部页脚处，你会看到一堆免费资源。
Chip Conley: One of them is called Why Successful Leaders Value Wisdom.
奇普·康利：其中之一是《为什么成功的领导者重视智慧》。
It is a free resource, and there's also a free resource down there called The Anatomy of a Transition.
它是一个免费资源，而且还有一个免费资源，名为“转型剖析”。
Those two free resources, understanding how to build your TQ, your transitional intelligence, and understanding how to develop wisdom are two, to my mind, two of the most important modern skills that we can have.
在我看来，这两项免费资源，即了解如何建立你的 TQ、过渡性智力，以及了解如何发展智慧，是我们可以拥有的两项最重要的现代技能。
Lenny Rachitsky: It's funny when you say you're on LinkedIn.
Lenny Rachitsky：当你说你在 LinkedIn 上时，这很有趣。
It doesn't resonate with me.
它没有引起我的共鸣。
Chip Conley on LinkedIn, posting on LinkedIn, something about...
奇普·康利 (Chip Conley) 在 LinkedIn 上发布了有关...
Chip Conley: I don't know.
奇普·康利：我不知道。
Why?
为什么？
Because I'm a little too Burning Man?
因为我有点太火人节了？
Lenny Rachitsky: You're just, yeah, exactly.
Lenny Rachitsky：你说得对，没错。
It feels like that's not your vibe, but I love that you do it, because that's where the people are.
感觉这不是你的氛围，但我喜欢你这样做，因为那就是人们所在的地方。
Chip Conley: Oh, I put wild, weird stuff up on LinkedIn, and thank God somebody's doing that.
Chip Conley：哦，我在 LinkedIn 上发布了疯狂、奇怪的东西，感谢上帝有人这么做了。
Lenny Rachitsky: For some reason, I don't see it.
Lenny Rachitsky：出于某种原因，我没有看到这一点。
I need to fix that.
我需要解决这个问题。
Chip, this was incredible.
奇普，这太不可思议了。
Everything I was hoping it'd be, thank you so much for being here and for sharing-
一切都是我所希望的，非常感谢您来到这里并分享-
Chip Conley: I am so proud as I go back, like have your proud Papa who just loves to see you in your element, and I just want to make sure everybody knows the following.
奇普·康利：当我回去时，我感到非常自豪，就像你骄傲的爸爸一样，他很喜欢看到你在你的环境中，我只是想确保每个人都知道以下内容。
Lenny was so good to work with.
和莱尼一起工作真是太好了。
Whenever you were assigned to a project as a PM, I appreciated it because I just knew that we were going to have great conversations.
每当你被分配到一个项目作为产品经理时，我都会很感激，因为我知道我们将会进行愉快的对话。
You're just an interesting dude.
你只是一个有趣的家伙。
Lenny Rachitsky: Well, I appreciate that, Chip.
Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，我很感激，Chip。
That's going to be the beginning of this whole episode.
这将是整个情节的开始。
We're just going to put that up front.
我们只是把它放在前面。
Just kidding.
只是在开玩笑。
That was awesome, Chip.
太棒了，奇普。
Really appreciate it.
真的很感激。
Lenny Rachitsky: Thanks everyone for listening.
Lenny Rachitsky：感谢大家的聆听。
Bye, everyone.
再见，大家。
Thank you so much for listening.
非常感谢您的聆听。
If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.
如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。
Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.
另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。
You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at LennysPodcast.com.
您可以在 LennysPodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。
See you in the next episode.
下一集见。