How to build deeper, more robust relationships | Carole Robin (Stanford professor, “Touchy Feely”)

Lenny Rachitsky: Many people told you your class at Stanford made them feel like their entire college tuition was worth it.

Lenny Rachitsky：很多人告诉你，你在斯坦福大学的课程让他们觉得他们的整个大学学费都是值得的。

Carole Robin: Even more rewarding for me are the, "I'm pretty sure your class just saved my marriage."

卡罗尔罗宾：对我来说更有价值的是，“我很确定你的课程刚刚拯救了我的婚姻。”

Lenny Rachitsky: I want to talk about how to give feedback well.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想谈谈如何做好反馈。

Carole Robin: I feel that you don't care and I feel you're being insensitive are not feelings, and that's where we make our biggest mistakes when it comes to feedback.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我觉得你不在乎，我觉得你麻木不仁，这不是感情，这就是我们在反馈方面犯下的最大错误。

Lenny Rachitsky: How do you avoid people getting defensive?

Lenny Rachitsky：你如何避免人们采取防御态度？

Carole Robin: Questions that start with what, when, where, how.

卡罗尔·罗宾：以什么、何时、何地、如何开始的问题。

Stay away from why.

远离为什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: I think it might be helpful to talk about this concept that you call the three realities.

Lenny Rachitsky：我认为谈论你称之为“三个现实”的概念可能会有所帮助。

Carole Robin: We don't understand that we are only privy to two out of the three, so I know what's going on for me and I know what I did.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我们不明白我们只了解三者中的两者，所以我知道我发生了什么事，我知道我做了什么。

I have no idea what happened on your end.

我不知道你那边发生了什么。

Lenny Rachitsky: That's a really profound point that anger is a secondary emotion.

Lenny Rachitsky：愤怒是次要情绪，这一点非常深刻。

Really what's going on is you're afraid or you're hurt.

真正发生的事情是你害怕或者你受伤了。

Carole Robin: What a disservice to not help people understand that anger is a distancing emotion and there are other emotions that are connecting.

卡罗尔·罗宾：如果不帮助人们理解愤怒是一种疏远的情绪，而且还有其他情绪是相互联系的，那真是一种伤害。

Lenny Rachitsky: Today my guest is Carole Robin.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：今天我的客人是卡罗尔·罗宾。

For over 20 years, Carole taught the legendary course at Stanford's Graduate School of Business, nicknamed Touchy Feely technically called Interpersonal Dynamics, which helps people learn how to build strong relationships and become much more effective leaders.

20多年来，卡罗尔在斯坦福大学商学院教授这门传奇课程，绰号“Touchy Feely”，技术上称为“人际动力学”，帮助人们学习如何建立牢固的关系并成为更高效的领导者。

She then went on to start a non-profit called Leaders in Tech, which brings these same lessons to leaders of high-tech growth companies, and she also wrote an incredibly impactful book called Connect, which distills all the key insights and lessons from her decades running this course.

然后，她创办了一个名为“科技领袖”的非营利组织，为高科技成长型公司的领导者带来了同样的课程，她还写了一本影响力极大的书，名为《Connect》，该书总结了她几十年来开设这门课程的所有关键见解和经验教训。

I've had so many friends go through the Stanford course or the Leaders in Tech program, and every single one of them was transformed in terms of how they relate to other people, how they communicate, and how they lead.

我有很多朋友参加了斯坦福大学课程或科技领袖项目，他们每个人在与他人的关系、沟通方式以及领导方式方面都发生了转变。

In my conversation with Carole, we talk about why we're often trapped in mental models that we formed when we were younger and how they now limit us and limit our potential and our ways of seeing world.

在我与卡罗尔的谈话中，我们谈论了为什么我们经常陷入年轻时形成的思维模式，以及它们现在如何限制我们、限制我们的潜力和我们看待世界的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Why disclosing 15% more than you naturally feel comfortable will make you a more effective leader?

Lenny Rachitsky：为什么披露比你自然感觉舒服的多 15% 的信息会让你成为更高效的领导者？

Why there are actually three realities around us at all times and how that insight changes the way you relate to people.

为什么我们周围始终存在三种现实，以及这种洞察力如何改变你与人相处的方式。

We also get into how to give feedback to anyone about anything, why vulnerability is so essential to great leadership, how to build exceptional relationships, and why they're so important and so much more.

我们还探讨了如何向任何人提供有关任何事情的反馈，为什么脆弱性对于伟大的领导力如此重要，如何建立特殊的关系，以及为什么它们如此重要等等。

This is a very special and very unique episode and I am so excited to bring it to you.

这是一个非常特别且非常独特的剧集，我很高兴能把它带给你们。

With that, I bring you Carole Robin.

接下来，我为您带来卡罗尔·罗宾。

After a short word from our sponsors, and if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube.

在我们的赞助商简短致辞之后，如果您喜欢这个播客，请不要忘记订阅并在您最喜欢的播客应用程序或 YouTube 中关注它。

It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously.

这是避免错过未来剧集的最佳方式，并且对播客有很大帮助。

This episode is brought to you by Eppo.

本集由 Eppo 为您带来。

Eppo is a next generation A/B testing and feature management platform built by alums of Airbnb and Snowflake for modern growth teams.

Eppo 是由 Airbnb 和 Snowflake 的校友为现代增长团队构建的下一代 A/B 测试和功能管理平台。

Lenny Rachitsky: Companies like Twitch, Miro, ClickUp and DraftKings rely on Eppo to power their experiments.

Lenny Rachitsky：Twitch、Miro、ClickUp 和 DraftKings 等公司依靠 Eppo 来支持他们的实验。

Experimentation is increasingly essential for driving growth and for understanding the performance of new features.

实验对于推动增长和了解新功能的性能越来越重要。

And Eppo helps you increase experimentation velocity while unlocking rigorous deep analysis in a way that no other commercial tool does.

Eppo 可以帮助您提高实验速度，同时以其他商业工具无法做到的方式解锁严格的深度分析。

When I was at Airbnb, one of the things that I left most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments, easily, troubleshoot issues, and analyze performance all on my own.

当我在 Airbnb 时，我留下最深刻的印象之一就是我们的实验平台，我可以在其中轻松设置实验、解决问题并分析性能，一切都由我自己完成。

EPO does all that and more with advanced statistical methods that can help you shave weeks off experiment time and accessible UI for diving deeper into performance and out-of-the-box reporting that helps you avoid annoying prolonged analytics cycles.

EPO 通过先进的统计方法完成所有这些工作，并提供更多功能，可帮助您缩短数周的实验时间，并且可访问的 UI 可更深入地了解性能，而开箱即用的报告可帮助您避免烦人的长时间分析周期。

Eppo also makes it easy for you to share experiment insights with your team, sparking new ideas for the A/B testing flywheel.

Eppo 还使您可以轻松地与您的团队分享实验见解，激发 A/B 测试飞轮的新想法。

Eppo powers experimentation across every use case, including product growth, machine learning, monetization, and email marketing.

Eppo 为每个用例提供实验支持，包括产品增长、机器学习、货币化和电子邮件营销。

Lenny Rachitsky: Check out Eppo at geteppo.com/lenny and 10X your experiment velocity.

Lenny Rachitsky：在 geteppo.com/lenny 上查看 Eppo，将您的实验速度提高 10 倍。

That's geteppo.com/lenny.

那是 geteppo.com/lenny。

Let me tell you about CommandBar.

让我告诉你有关 CommandBar 的信息。

If you're like me and most users I've built product for you probably find those little in-product pop-ups, really annoying, want to take a tour?

如果您像我和我为您构建的产品的大多数用户一样，可能会发现那些产品内的小弹出窗口真的很烦人，想参观一下吗？

Check out this new feature, and these Pop-ups are becoming less and less effective since most users don't read what they say.

看看这个新功能，这些弹出窗口的效果越来越差，因为大多数用户不阅读他们所说的内容。

They just want to close them as soon as possible, but every product builder knows that users need help to learn the ins and outs of your product.

他们只是想尽快关闭它们，但每个产品构建者都知道用户需要帮助来了解产品的细节。

We use so many products every day and we can't possibly know the ins and outs of everyone.

我们每天都会使用很多产品，我们不可能了解每个产品的来龙去脉。

CommandBar is an AI-powered toolkit for product growth, marketing and customer teams to help users get the most out of your product without annoying them.

CommandBar 是一款由人工智能驱动的工具包，适用于产品开发、营销和客户团队，可帮助用户充分利用您的产品，而不会打扰他们。

Lenny Rachitsky: They use AI to get closer to user intent, so they have search and chat products that let users describe what they're trying to do in their own words and then see personalized results like customer walkthroughs or actions, and they do pop-ups too, but their nudges are based on in-product behaviors like confusion or intent classification, which makes them much less annoying and much more impactful.

Lenny Rachitsky：他们使用人工智能来更接近用户意图，因此他们拥有搜索和聊天产品，让用户用自己的话描述他们想要做什么，然后看到个性化结果，例如客户演练或操作，他们也做弹出窗口，但他们的推动是基于产品内行为，例如混淆或意图分类，这使得它们不那么烦人，而且更有影响力。

This works for web apps, mobile apps and websites, and they work with industry-leading companies like Gusto, Freshworks, HashiCorp and LaunchDarkly.

这适用于网络应用程序、移动应用程序和网站，他们与 Gusto、Freshworks、HashiCorp 和 LaunchDarkly 等行业领先的公司合作。

Over 15 million end-users have interacted with CommandBar.

超过 1500 万最终用户与 CommandBar 进行过交互。

To try out CommandBar you can sign up at commandbar.com/lenny and you can unlock an extra 1,000 AI responses per month for any plan.

要试用 CommandBar，您可以在 commandbar.com/lenny 上注册，并且您可以为任何计划每月解锁额外 1,000 个 AI 响应。

That's commandbar.com/lenny.

那是commandbar.com/lenny。

Carole, thank you so much for being here.

卡罗尔，非常感谢你来到这里。

Welcome to the podcast.

欢迎来到播客。

Carole Robin: Thank you so much for having me, Lenny.

卡罗尔·罗宾：非常感谢你邀请我，莱尼。

I'm delighted to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: I've heard from so many people over the years how much you and your course have impacted their life, both friends of mine, and also people when I shared on Twitter that you were coming on the podcast, so many people left comments just like, "Oh my God, that course and Carole's changed my life in so many ways." So I am really excited to have you here.

Lenny Rachitsky：多年来，我从很多人那里听到你和你的课程对他们的生活产生了多大的影响，包括我的朋友，还有我在 Twitter 上分享你即将参加播客的消息时的人们，很多人留下了这样的评论：“天哪，那门课程和卡罗尔在很多方面改变了我的生活。”所以我很高兴你能来到这里。

I'm really honored to have you here.

我真的很荣幸你能来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: I wanted to start with when we were preparing for this podcast, you shared this quote with me.

Lenny Rachitsky：我想从我们准备这个播客的时候开始，你和我分享了这句话。

You told me that "I was put on this planet to help people learn that it's possible to learn how to build and develop robust, meaningful relationships." What are robust, meaningful relationships and why are they important to you?

你告诉我，“我来到这个星球上是为了帮助人们了解如何建立和发展牢固、有意义的关系是可能的。”什么是牢固、有意义的关系？为什么它们对您很重要？

Why are they important to people?

为什么它们对人们很重要？

Carole Robin: I think that most people experience a richer, fuller, more meaningful life when they have at least some high quality relationships or maybe put the other way.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我认为，当大多数人至少拥有一些高质量的人际关系时，或者换句话说，他们会体验到更丰富、更充实、更有意义的生活。

If you have none, it's unlikely you're going to experience quite as rich and full a life.

如果你没有，你就不太可能经历如此丰富和充实的生活。

So I often talk about relationships exist on a continuum.

所以我经常谈论关系存在于一个连续体中。

At one end of the continuum is contact and no connection, or we could also say dysfunction.

连续体的一端是接触但没有联系，或者我们也可以说功能障碍。

And by the way, contact no connection.

顺便说一句，联系没有联系。

Those are thousands of Facebook friends.

那是成千上万的 Facebook 好友。

Those are not relationships and those are not friends in my vocabulary.

在我的词汇中，那些不是关系，也不是朋友。

At the other end of the continuum is what my co-author David Bradford and I came to call exceptional, and exceptional relationships have a particular set of characteristics that I can get into if you want to.

连续体的另一端是我和我的合著者大卫·布拉德福德（David Bradford）所说的特殊关系，而特殊关系具有一组特定的特征，如果你愿意的话我可以介绍一下。

But before I even do that, we're not suggesting, and I'm not suggesting that everybody needs to turn every one of their relationships into something exceptional.

但在我这样做之前，我们并不是在建议，我也不是在建议每个人都需要将他们的每一段关系都变得非凡。

Carole Robin: That would be, first of all, impractical, second of all, unnecessary.

卡罗尔·罗宾：首先，这不切实际，其次，没有必要。

But it turns out that the skills you need to move along that continuum actually take you from contact and no connection and dysfunction to at least functional and robust.

但事实证明，沿着这个连续体前进所需的技能实际上可以让你从接触、无联系和功能障碍转变为至少功能性和稳健性。

And then once you've acquired those skills, then you can decide whether or not you want to take a few of those relationships a lot farther, take them all the way to exceptional, but at least you've gained what you need to know in order to get to functional and robust.

一旦你掌握了这些技能，你就可以决定是否要让其中一些关系走得更远，让它们一直发展到卓越，但至少你已经获得了建立功能性和稳健性所需的知识。

And I believe if we had a critical mass of human beings on this planet who had those skills and knew how to get to at least robust and functional, we wouldn't just have more functional teams and organizations, we'd have stronger communities, we'd have more functional schools.

我相信，如果我们在这个星球上拥有足够多的人，他们拥有这些技能，并且知道如何至少变得强大和实用，那么我们不仅会拥有更多功能性的团队和组织，我们还会拥有更强大的社区，我们还会拥有更多功能性的学校。

We might, in my wildest dreams, even have a more functional government.

在我最疯狂的梦想中，我们甚至可能拥有一个更加职能化的政府。

And so that's my life's mission.

这就是我一生的使命。

Lenny Rachitsky: Hopefully this episode is going to actually do exactly that, help people build from-

Lenny Rachitsky：希望这一集能真正做到这一点，帮助人们从——

Carole Robin: From your mouth to God's ears.

卡罗尔·罗宾：从你的嘴到上帝的耳朵。

Lenny Rachitsky: To give people a little more motivation to really dig in and pay deep attention to this.

Lenny Rachitsky：给人们更多的动力去真正深入研究并深入关注这一点。

What are some of the benefits you've seen from people moving further along the spectrum, building more robust relationships and more exceptional relationships?

您从人们进一步发展、建立更牢固的关系和更特殊的关系中看到了哪些好处？

Carole Robin: Obviously, I taught a course for many, many years at Stanford Business School, and it was the Stanford Business School, by the way.

卡罗尔·罗宾：显然，我在斯坦福商学院教授了一门课程很多很多年，顺便说一句，那就是斯坦福商学院。

It wasn't hidden away somewhere in the psychology department.

它并没有隐藏在心理学系的某个地方。

And that's because the premise of the course is that people do business with people not ideas, not products, not machines, not tactics, strategies, not even money, they do business with people.

那是因为该课程的前提是人们与人做生意，而不是想法，不是产品，不是机器，不是战术，战略，甚至不是金钱，他们与人做生意。

So you better get the people part right if you really want to succeed.

因此，如果你真的想成功，你最好把人做好。

And that interpersonal competence is a determinant of both personal and professional success.

人际交往能力是个人和职业成功的决定因素。

So, to your question, I've lost track of how many hundreds of emails and calls and visits I've had from former students who come to tell me I just became a CEO.

所以，对于你的问题，我已经记不清有多少封以前的学生发来的电子邮件、电话和来访，告诉我我刚刚成为首席执行官。

I'm pretty sure I owe it all to you.

我很确定这一切都是我欠你的。

I just raised my third round.

我刚刚筹集了第三轮资金。

I'm pretty sure I owe it all to you.

我很确定这一切都是我欠你的。

Carole Robin: I just figured out how my co-founder and I are going to navigate this very difficult situation we're in.

卡罗尔罗宾：我刚刚弄清楚我和我的联合创始人将如何应对我们所处的这个非常困难的局面。

Thank you for everything you taught me, and those are exceedingly satisfying.

感谢您教给我的一切，这些让我非常满意。

And I'll tell you, even more rewarding for me are the, "I'm pretty sure your class just saved my marriage." I just reconciled my relationship with my brother who I hadn't talked to for two years because he voted for X and I voted for Y.

我会告诉你，对我来说更有价值的是，“我很确定你的课程刚刚拯救了我的婚姻。”我刚刚和我的兄弟和解了，我已经两年没有和他说话了，因为他投票给了 X，而我投票给了 Y。

We don't need to get into who X and Y are.

我们不需要了解 X 和 Y 是谁。

And now I get thank you for finally writing a book because my VP of product didn't go to Stanford and doesn't understand what I'm talking about.

现在我感谢你们终于写了一本书，因为我的产品副总裁没有去过斯坦福大学，也不明白我在说什么。

So at least I bought them a book and now I've got more and more folks sending people to Leaders in Tech, which we can talk about later, which is the nonprofit I started after I left Stanford, so that more and more people can learn this from more than just a book.

所以至少我给他们买了一本书，现在我已经有越来越多的人派人去科技领袖，我们稍后可以讨论，这是我离开斯坦福后创办的非营利组织，这样越来越多的人可以从不仅仅是一本书中学到这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And I think what I love, you also shared this point that many people told you that that one class at Stanford Business School at GSB was made them feel like their entire college tuition was worth it from that one class, which is so surprising because it's called Touchy Feely, it has nothing to do specifically with business.

我想我喜欢的是，你也分享了这一点，很多人告诉你，GSB 斯坦福商学院的一门课让他们觉得他们的整个大学学费都值得从这门课中学到，这太令人惊讶了，因为它被称为 Touchy Feely，它与商业没有任何具体关系。

Carole Robin: Except of course it has everything to do with business.

卡罗尔·罗宾：当然，这与商业有关。

Lenny Rachitsky: So to follow that thread, can you just talk about what this class is trying to do, what the goal of this class is and what actually goes on in this class?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么，为了遵循这个思路，您能否谈谈这堂课想要做什么、这堂课的目标是什么以及这堂课实际上发生了什么？

And again, people call this class Touchy Feely.

人们再次称此类为“Touchy Feely”。

I think it's technically called Interpersonal Dynamics.

我认为这在技术上称为人际关系动力学。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

What is this class all about?

这门课主要讲什么？

Help people understand what goes on here.

帮助人们了解这里发生的事情。

Carole Robin: Well, first of all, it's a quarter long class at a really fundamental level we've already really talked about what goes on there.

卡罗尔罗宾：嗯，首先，这是一个四分之一长的课程，在非常基础的层面上，我们已经真正讨论了那里发生的事情。

People learn how to be more interpersonally competent or how to connect with other people in more functional ways.

人们学习如何提高人际交往能力或如何以更实用的方式与其他人联系。

And what I mean by connect is learn how I need to show up in order for you to trust me, in order for you to feel closer to me, in order for you to want to spend more time with me in a leadership.

我所说的“联系”是指了解我需要如何表现才能让你信任我，让你感觉与我更亲近，让你愿意花更多时间与我一起领导。

By the way, this is part of the leadership curriculum I taught, in a leadership sense that makes you more likely to want to follow me because in the end, that's the question leaders should ask themselves, "Why should somebody follow me?" And you know what?

顺便说一句，这是我教授的领导力课程的一部分，从领导力的角度来看，这会让你更有可能想要追随我，因为最终，这就是领导者应该问自己的问题：“为什么有人应该追随我？”你知道吗？

You could study other leaders.

你可以研究其他领导者。

Why did somebody follow Steve Jobs?

为什么有人追随史蒂夫·乔布斯？

Why did somebody follow Ursula at Xerox?

为什么有人追随施乐公司的乌苏拉？

Why did some people follow Sheryl Sandberg or why should somebody follow me?

为什么有些人关注谢丽尔·桑德伯格，或者为什么有人应该关注我？

Because I'm not any of those people.

因为我不是那些人中的任何一个。

So the question I ask my students to sit in and now my Leaders in Tech participants to sit in is why should somebody follow you?

因此，我要求我的学生和现在我的技术领导者参与者参加的问题是为什么有人应该跟随你？

Carole Robin: Now, there are lots of reasons why people might follow you.

卡罗尔·罗宾：现在，人们关注你的原因有很多。

You've got a great vision that's very inspiring.

你有一个非常鼓舞人心的伟大愿景。

You have a product that they want to bring into the world.

他们想将您的产品推向世界。

They think they may make a lot of money if they hitch their wagon to you.

他们认为如果他们搭上你的马车，他们可能会赚很多钱。

Those are all good reasons.

这些都是很好的理由。

But if you want to build a sustainable long-term legacy, then you probably want to think about showing up in a way that other people come to see you as a referent figure, somebody in their life that they say, "When I grow up, I want to be more like that." And that is a form of power.

但如果你想建立一个可持续的长期遗产，那么你可能需要考虑以一种其他人将你视为参考人物的方式出现，他们生活中的某个人会说：“当我长大后，我希望更像那样。”这是权力的一种形式。

There's a lot of research that supports this, referent power.

有很多研究支持这一点，即参照力。

You're a referent figure, and then people are much likely to be open to your influence, and open to working harder, and open to doing some of the things that you believe are going to make you great as a whole organization.

你是一个参考人物，那么人们很可能会接受你的影响，愿意更加努力地工作，愿意做一些你认为会让你作为整个组织变得伟大的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: The class is quite unusual in that there's not just a bunch of lectures and talks, there's a lot of experiential pieces where you have to do quite uncomfortable things in order to learn how to do this well.

Lenny Rachitsky：这门课很不寻常，因为不仅有一堆讲座和演讲，还有很多体验性的内容，你必须做一些非常不舒服的事情才能学会如何做好这件事。

Can you share an example or two of some of the things you put people through, whatever you're able to share?

你能分享一两个你让人们经历过的事情的例子吗？无论你能分享什么？

Carole Robin: Sure.

卡罗尔·罗宾：当然。

I mean, I think that we don't learn to be...

我的意思是，我认为我们没有学会...

And I don't learn how to connect with you by reading about it in a book, which by the way is why it took us four years to write our book because at the end of every chapter there's a, here are things you can go do with what you just learned in the reading.

我不会通过阅读书中的内容来学习如何与你联系，顺便说一句，这就是为什么我们花了四年的时间来写这本书，因为在每一章的末尾都有一个，这里是你可以用你在阅读中学到的东西去做的事情。

And likewise in the class, the lectures are scaffolding on which you can hang your experience.

同样，在课堂上，讲座就像脚手架，你可以在上面悬挂你的经验。

But most of the learning happens in these small groups called T groups.

但大部分学习发生在这些称为 T 组的小群体中。

The T stands for training, not therapy.

T 代表训练，而不是治疗。

And sometimes people think they sound like therapy, and they sometimes even experience them as feeling a little bit like therapy, but that's not what they are.

有时人们认为它们听起来像是治疗，有时他们甚至感觉它们有点像治疗，但事实并非如此。

We call them training groups.

我们称他们为培训小组。

And what happens in that group is that there's 12 participants and two facilitators, and they are, for example, given a task, I might pair two students up and say, okay, you've got 10 minutes.

在该小组中，有 12 名参与者和两名协调员，例如，他们被赋予一项任务，我可能会将两名学生配对并说，好吧，你们有 10 分钟的时间。

Carole Robin: Allow the other person to get to know you.

卡罗尔·罗宾：让对方了解你。

And that's the only instruction I give.

这是我给出的唯一指示。

Okay, so now you and I look at each other and we're like, "I don't know what the heck that's supposed to mean." And then maybe I share something about myself or maybe I ask you a question or who knows what I do with that, and then who knows what you do with that?

好吧，现在你和我看着对方，我们就像，“我不知道这到底是什么意思。”然后也许我会分享一些关于我自己的事情，或者也许我会问你一个问题，或者谁知道我用它做什么，然后谁知道你用它做什么？

So after 10 minutes, then I stop them and I say, okay, so take a moment and recognize that you just had a bunch of choices that you actually probably never even think about.

十分钟后，我阻止他们，我说，好吧，花点时间，认识到你有很多选择，你实际上可能从未想过。

You had a choice whether you began by sharing something or you waited for the other person to be in.

你可以选择是先分享一些东西，还是等待其他人加入。

You had a choice whether you began with a question, which was a nice, safe place to be, or whether you began with a disclosure.

你可以选择是从问题开始，这是一个美好、安全的地方，还是从披露开始。

Carole Robin: Then you had choices with regard to how you responded to what your partner did.

卡罗尔·罗宾：那么你可以选择如何回应你的伴侣的行为。

And the whole course is about having interactions and then having the guidance and the space and the time and the focus to unpack what just happened.

整个课程就是进行互动，然后获得指导、空间、时间和焦点来解开刚刚发生的事情。

So now do you want to have a more conversation with this person or less?

那么现在你想和这个人多聊还是少聊呢？

Are you intrigued or are you like, "Can I just get paired up with somebody else?" But now we get to talk about it.

您是否感兴趣，或者您是否想“我可以和其他人配对吗？”但现在我们要谈谈它了。

And then I put them into a second conversation and I say, okay, now having learned that, by the way, one of the ways we build relationships is through disclosure, through allowing ourselves to become more known.

然后我让他们进行第二次对话，我说，好吧，现在已经了解到，顺便说一句，我们建立关系的方式之一是通过披露，通过让自己变得更加了解。

So that's a little mini lecture.

这是一个小型讲座。

And then I say, okay, now go back into your pair and see whether or not you want to make some new choices.

然后我说，好吧，现在回到你的配对中，看看你是否想要做出一些新的选择。

Carole Robin: And then of course, that's all I always say, confidentiality is a very important aspect of all this work.

卡罗尔·罗宾：当然，这就是我总是说的，保密是所有这些工作的一个非常重要的方面。

So in the pair conversations, in the group conversations, I call them the Vegas Rule.

因此，在结对对话中，在小组对话中，我将其称为维加斯规则。

What happens if Vegas stays in Vegas.

如果维加斯留在维加斯会发生什么。

And so I don't ask for any specifics, but I'll ask them for, was there a qualitative difference between the first and second conversation?

所以我不会要求任何细节，但我会问他们，第一次和第二次谈话之间有质的区别吗？

And they inevitably say, "Oh my God.

他们不可避免地会说：“天哪。

The first conversation is the conversation I have in the bar all the time with somebody." And the second conversation was a little more uncomfortable, but I sure feel a lot more known, and I think I know my partner a little bit more and now they've had a little taste of what it's going to be like.

第一次对话是我一直在酒吧里与某人的对话。”第二次谈话有点不舒服，但我确实感觉自己更了解自己了，而且我想我对我的伴侣更加了解了，现在他们已经尝到了谈话的滋味。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing example.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：惊人的例子。

So what I want to do with the rest of our chat is basically go through many of the lessons and insights and lectures that you give in this course.

因此，我想在接下来的聊天中基本上回顾一下您在本课程中提供的许多课程、见解和讲座。

Obviously, they're not going to be able to practice the way they would practice in a class.

显然，他们将无法像在课堂上练习的方式进行练习。

But before we get in there, let's actually talk about, so there's this course at Stanford, and you also now have a program called Leaders in Tech where anyone can participate.

但在我们开始之前，让我们实际谈谈，斯坦福大学有这门课程，现在还有一个名为“科技领袖”的项目，任何人都可以参加。

They don't have to be going to Stanford Business School.

他们不必去斯坦福商学院。

Talk about what this is and how people can participate if they want to go deeper on the stuff we're going to talk about.

讨论这是什么，以及如果人们想更深入地了解我们将要讨论的内容，他们可以如何参与。

Carole Robin: So Leaders in Tech is a nonprofit that two of my co-founders and I started, I guess in January of 2018.

卡罗尔·罗宾：科技领袖是一个非营利组织，是我和我的两位联合创始人在 2018 年 1 月创办的。

We started it with a program called The Fellows Program, which is a 10-month program that starts with a four-day retreat that's like Touchy Feely on steroids because Touchy Feely is a quarter long class, and then it continues on a monthly basis for a day or half a day a month to get the rest of what we might call Carole Robin curriculum because I also taught a course called High Performance Leadership.

我们从一个名为“研究员计划”的计划开始，这是一个为期 10 个月的计划，从为期四天的静修开始，就像打了类固醇的 Touchy Feely 一样，因为 Touchy Feely 是一个季度长的课程，然后每个月持续一天或半天，以获得我们可以称为卡罗尔罗宾课程的其余部分，因为我还教授了一门名为“高绩效领导力”的课程。

I also called Taught Leadership Coaching and Mentoring.

我还打电话给教导型领导力辅导和指导。

So there were other things besides Touchy Feely.

所以除了 Touchy Feely 之外还有其他的事情。

Then what happened was that our fellows who went through our first couple of cohorts said, because the Fellows Program is open to founders, either current or previous founders or co-founders of a company that has not gone public.

然后发生的事情是，经历过我们前几个队列的研究员说，因为研究员计划向创始人开放，无论是现任或前任创始人，还是尚未上市的公司的联合创始人。

Carole Robin: And what we're trying to do is we're trying to influence the cultures of the future of Facebook's and Google's of the world, not the current ones.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我们正在努力做的是影响 Facebook 和 Google 世界的未来文化，而不是当前的文化。

And so that program has a more limited number of people that can apply to it.

因此，该计划的申请人数更加有限。

However, one of the things that happened was we got a lot of people who said, but I'm not a founder and I still want that.

然而，发生的事情之一是我们有很多人说，但我不是创始人，但我仍然想要这样。

And we also had fellows who went through the program that said, what about my people, my chief people officer, my VP of engineering?

我们也有一些参加过该计划的研究员说，我的员工、我的首席人力官、我的工程副总裁怎么办？

So then we'd started just a four-day version of the Touchy Feely, which anybody could apply to.

然后我们开始了为期四天的 Touchy Feely 版本，任何人都可以申请。

I mean, actually not anybody.

我的意思是，实际上不是任何人。

You do have to be a manager of some kind, and you do have to be in tech for now.

你确实必须成为某种类型的经理，而且你现在必须从事科技行业。

Carole Robin: So that's where people get the real on the ground experience.

卡罗尔·罗宾：这就是人们获得真正的实地体验的地方。

They all get a copy of the book, and of course, if you don't want to go through the program or it's not the right time or you want to start somewhere else, you can start with the book.

他们都会得到这本书的副本，当然，如果您不想完成该计划，或者现在不是合适的时间，或者您想从其他地方开始，您可以从这本书开始。

But if you just buy the book and you read it and you put it back on your shelf, you're not going to learn anything.

但如果你只是买了这本书，读了它，然后把它放回书架上，你就不会学到任何东西。

Don't waste your money.

不要浪费你的钱。

If you're going to buy the book, buy at least one other copy and give it to somebody with whom you actually want to develop a stronger relationship and read it together and do the activities at the end of every book, and then you start to get a taste of what it's like to go through the course.

如果你打算买这本书，至少再买一本，然后把它送给你真正想与之建立更牢固关系的人，一起阅读并完成每本书末尾的活动，然后你就开始体验学习这门课程的感觉。

Lenny Rachitsky: So just to close the loop there, how do people learn more and apply and join this program?

Lenny Rachitsky：那么为了结束这个循环，人们如何了解更多信息并申请并加入这个计划？

Lenny Rachitsky: Awesome.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And around the time this episode comes out, there's a deadline roughly around that time?

在这一集播出的时候，大概有一个截止日期吗？

Carole Robin: There is.

卡罗尔·罗宾：有。

Around when this episode comes out.

大约在这一集播出的时候。

So we do these four-day retreats all year, so there's no deadline to apply for that, but if you're interested in the ten-month program that starts with the four-day retreat and then has all that additional stuff, then deadline for that is May one.

因此，我们全年都会进行为期四天的静修，因此没有申请截止日期，但如果您对从四天静修开始的为期十个月的计划感兴趣，然后有所有其他内容，那么截止日期是五月一号。

Actually, it might even how many days?

实际上，可能还要几天？

It might be April.

可能是四月。

I don't remember how many days there are in April, but it's either the last day of April or May one.

我不记得四月有多少天，但要么是四月的最后一天，要么是五月的一天。

Carole Robin: Yeah, there you go.

卡罗尔·罗宾：是的，就是这样。

So it's probably April 30th.

所以大概是4月30日。

So check it out.

所以检查一下。

You have to be nominated in order to apply.

您必须获得提名才能申请。

Don't let that stop you.

不要让这阻止你。

If you look at it all and you decide you want to apply, just apply and say, Carole, I listened to Carole Robin on this podcast, you told me to apply.

如果你看完所有内容并决定要申请，只需申请并说，卡罗尔，我在这个播客上听了卡罗尔罗宾，你告诉我申请。

Carole Robin: Don't waste time trying to find somebody to nominate you.

卡罗尔·罗宾：不要浪费时间寻找人来提名你。

Lenny Rachitsky: How amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay.

好的。

Or you're going to be flooded with applications.

否则您将会被大量的应用程序淹没。

Carole Robin: Again, from your mouth to God's ears.

卡罗尔·罗宾：再说一次，从你的嘴到上帝的耳朵。

Lenny Rachitsky: Okay, so let's get into a lot of the stuff that you teach.

Lenny Rachitsky：好的，让我们来讨论一下您教的很多内容。

So you mentioned progressive disclosure, so that might be a good place to start.

所以你提到了渐进式披露，所以这可能是一个很好的起点。

What's the lesson there?

那里有什么教训？

What is it that people get wrong?

人们会犯什么错误？

Why is that important?

为什么这很重要？

Carole Robin: So first of all, when we disclose, we make ourselves more vulnerable, and vulnerability and disclosure tend to be reciprocal.

卡罗尔·罗宾：首先，当我们披露信息时，我们会让自己变得更加脆弱，而脆弱性和披露往往是相互的。

If I hold my cards really close, you're going to hold your cards even closer.

如果我真的把我的牌握得很紧，你也会把你的牌握得更紧。

So one of the things to learn to do is to experiment.

因此，要学会做的事情之一就是进行实验。

And what works with one person isn't going to work without somebody else necessarily because every relationship is its own fabulously interesting and always unfolding dynamic is to experiment with allowing myself to be a little bit more known, and then seeing what happens and whether or not you reciprocate.

对一个人有效的方法不一定在没有其他人的情况下也有效，因为每一种关系都有其自身非常有趣且不断展开的动态，那就是尝试让自己被更多人了解，然后看看会发生什么以及你是否会回报。

Now, a really important concept we teach that you and I have talked about before is called the 15% rule.

现在，我们教给你和我之前讨论过的一个非常重要的概念称为 15% 规则。

And what that is that we all have a comfort zone.

那就是我们都有一个舒适区。

Imagine a circle in the middle called the comfort zone, this picture's in the book, and that we don't think twice about what we say, and then there is a danger zone, which is a circle way on the outside.

想象一下中间有一个圈叫舒适区，这张图是在书里的，我们不会三思而后行，然后有一个危险区，就是外面的一个圈。

Carole Robin: So these are concentric circles if you're not watching the video, and I never in a million years say that or tell you that, but there's this really important circle in the middle, which is called the learning zone.

卡罗尔·罗宾：如果你不看视频，这些都是同心圆，我一百万年来从来没有这么说过或告诉过你，但中间有一个非常重要的圆圈，它被称为学习区。

In academia, they have to have fancy words for very easy concepts, it's called the zone of proximal development.

在学术界，他们必须用花哨的词来形容非常简单的概念，这被称为最近发展区。

But basically it means that's where you learn.

但基本上这意味着这就是你学习的地方。

And you have to step outside your comfort zone in order to learn anything, and especially in order to create a deeper connection with somebody.

你必须走出自己的舒适区才能学习任何东西，尤其是为了与某人建立更深层次的联系。

However, my students used to say, "But Carole, the minute I step outside my comfort zone, how do I know I'm not in my danger zone?" I hear this learning zone, but how do I know I didn't go too far?

然而，我的学生常常说：“但是卡罗尔，当我走出舒适区的那一刻，我怎么知道我不在危险区呢？”我听说有这个学习区，但我怎么知道我没有走得太远呢？

So we came up with the 15% rule.

所以我们提出了15%的规则。

So step a little bit outside your comfort zone.

因此，稍微走出你的舒适区。

If you step a little bit outside your comfort zone, you're very unlikely to freak yourself or the other person out.

如果你稍微走出自己的舒适区，你就不太可能吓到自己或他人。

Carole Robin: But you'll know, you'll feel it a little bit, you'll be like, okay, I feel just a little uncomfortable saying this, but I think I'm going to try.

卡罗尔·罗宾：但是你会知道，你会感觉到一点，你会说，好吧，说这个我感觉有点不舒服，但我想我会尝试一下。

And then depending on how you respond, then we settle into a new comfort zone, a slightly larger circle, which is our comfort zone with each other.

然后根据你的反应，我们进入一个新的舒适区，一个稍大的圈子，这是我们彼此的舒适区。

Then we can go 15% beyond that, and that's how we learn and grow and deepen our relationship.

然后我们可以超出 15%，这就是我们学习、成长和加深我们关系的方式。

The same thing by the way applies to feedback when we get into that later.

顺便说一句，当我们稍后讨论反馈时，同样的事情也适用于反馈。

So we have to step outside our comfort zone in order to deepen and strengthen relationships.

因此，我们必须走出我们的舒适区，才能加深和加强关系。

Lenny Rachitsky: What are some examples of stepping outside your comfort zone, disclosing what is it that you find people maybe aren't disclosing enough of or areas they should disclose?

Lenny Rachitsky：有哪些走出你的舒适区、披露你发现人们可能没有披露足够的内容或他们应该披露的领域的例子？

Is it challenges they're having in their life?

这是他们生活中遇到的挑战吗？

Carole Robin: Well, of course, context matters.

卡罗尔·罗宾：嗯，当然，背景很重要。

It depends on who I'm talking to.

这取决于我在和谁说话。

And by the way, disclosure, I want to underscore a concept that we also very much teach, which is appropriate disclosure.

顺便说一句，关于披露，我想强调我们也经常教授的一个概念，那就是适当的披露。

If I'm the VP of marketing and I get up in front of the troops and I say, "Well, third month in a row we've lost share and I have no idea what's happening or why or what to do about it, and I'm feeling pretty crappy about myself, I'm not even sure I should be your VP of marketing." That might be vulnerable and disclosure, but it is not appropriate Vulnerability and that it's not what we're talking about.

如果我是营销副总裁，我站在员工面前说：“好吧，我们连续第三个月失去了市场份额，我不知道发生了什么，也不知道为什么发生，也不知道该怎么办，我对自己感觉很糟糕，我什至不确定我是否应该成为你们的营销副总裁。”这可能是脆弱性和披露性的，但它不是适当的脆弱性，而且这不是我们正在讨论的内容。

The flip side of that is that I get up in front of the troops and I pretend nothing is happening.

另一面是，我站在部队面前，假装什么也没发生。

That doesn't build my credibility either.

这也无法建立我的信誉。

So I can get up and say, okay, probably no secret to most of you, that's the third month in a row, we've lost share.

所以我可以站起来说，好吧，对你们大多数人来说可能不是什么秘密，这是我们连续第三个月失去了份额。

Carole Robin: And man, I wish I could stand up here and tell you I know exactly what's happening and I know exactly what we should do about it, but I don't, and I have never needed you all more.

卡罗尔·罗宾：伙计，我希望我能站在这里告诉你我确切地知道发生了什么事，我确切地知道我们应该做什么，但我不知道，而且我从来没有像现在这样需要你。

Now, who would you rather follow?

现在，你更愿意跟随谁？

So I think in business, and for a very long time, leaders were socialized to, first of all, leave all feelings in the parking lot.

所以我认为，在商业领域，很长一段时间以来，领导者被社会化为首先将所有感情留在停车场。

I've got an anecdote I often tell about my very first job, which I'm happy to tell you if you want.

我经常讲一个关于我第一份工作的轶事，如果你愿意的话，我很乐意告诉你。

And there's no place for vulnerability or for sharing feelings.

没有地方可以让你脆弱，也没有地方可以分享感受。

Are you kidding, feelings in the workplace?

开玩笑吧，职场感受？

Now, I ask you, how do you inspire anybody with no feelings?

现在，我问你，你如何激励没有感情的人？

How do you motivate anybody with no feelings?

你如何激励没有感情的人？

How do you become seen as a real person with no feelings?

你如何才能被视为一个没有感情的真实的人？

Why should somebody who is a robot who is robotic follow you?

为什么一个机器人一样的人要跟着你？

And the answer to that sometimes in the valley especially is because they're going to follow you for a while because you've got a really great idea.

有时，特别是在山谷中，答案是因为他们会跟随你一段时间，因为你有一个非常好的主意。

And the minute they've got another choice, man, they are out of there.

一旦他们有了另一个选择，伙计，他们就会离开那里。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so a lot of this connects to this broad piece of advice you always give people is just and focus on vulnerability.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以这在很大程度上与你总是给人们的广泛建议有关，那就是公正并关注脆弱性。

You spend a lot of time teaching people just the power vulnerability, which is not intuitive.

你花了很多时间教导人们权力的脆弱性，这是不直观的。

A lot of people try to move away from showing vulnerability.

许多人试图避免表现出脆弱。

There's this quote I saw somewhere that "A willingness to be vulnerable makes you not less influential as a leader." Can you just talk about why that is?

我在某处看到这样一句话：“愿意表现出脆弱的态度并不会让你作为领导者的影响力减弱。”您能简单谈谈这是为什么吗？

Carole Robin: Yeah, you asked me whether or not I held any contrarian views and I said, yeah, that's one of them.

卡罗尔·罗宾：是的，你问我是否持有任何逆向观点，我说，是的，那就是其中之一。

I actually think that a leader who is willing to be appropriately vulnerable is a stronger leader.

事实上，我认为一个愿意适当地表现出脆弱性的领导者是一个更强大的领导者。

And so I'll give you this short example of what happened to me because it encompasses a lot of what we've been talking about.

因此，我将向您提供这个发生在我身上的简短例子，因为它包含了我们一直在谈论的很多内容。

So in 1975, I went to work for the largest industrial automation company in the world as the first woman in a non-clerical job.

因此，1975 年，我进入世界上最大的工业自动化公司工作，成为第一位从事非文书工作的女性。

I was a sales engineer, and yes, I am old, but the dinosaurs were not roaming the earth.

我是一名销售工程师，是的，我老了，但恐龙并没有在地球上漫游。

And the first thing I learned was you leave feelings in the parking lot, whatever you do, you never talk about your feelings or express feelings in the workplace.

我学到的第一件事就是你把感情留在停车场，无论你做什么，你永远不会在工作场所谈论你的感受或表达你的感受。

It's unprofessional.

这很不专业。

I was like, okay.

我当时想，好吧。

I got pretty good at it.

我很擅长。

In fact, I got very good at it.

事实上，我非常擅长。

Carole Robin: Ironic, given that I eventually became known as the queen of putty-feely at Stanford.

卡罗尔·罗宾（Carole Robin）：讽刺的是，考虑到我最终在斯坦福大学被称为“油腻女王”。

But at the time, I got very good at it.

但当时我已经非常擅长了。

I'm not a career academic.

我不是职业学者。

I've had six different careers.

我有过六种不同的职业。

And 10 years later I'm at an off-site and I've been promoted many times, I'm now running a $50 million region.

10 年后，我在异地工作，并多次晋升，现在负责管理一个价值 5000 万美元的区域。

I've got a half a dozen guys that work for me.

我有六个人为我工作。

And yes, ladies, if you're listening, I did finally fix that, but at that point, I still hadn't quite fixed it.

是的，女士们，如果你们在听的话，我终于解决了这个问题，但在那一点上，我仍然没有完全解决它。

And we're sitting there and I had an idea, it doesn't matter what it was, but I got a little excited about it and I got crickets and I got a little more excited and I got crickets.

我们坐在那里，我有一个想法，不管它是什么，但我对此感到有点兴奋，我得到了蟋蟀，我变得更加兴奋，我得到了蟋蟀。

I was like, "Come on you guys, this could be really cool.

我当时想，“来吧，你们，这真的很酷。

Why can't you see how cool this could be?" And one of my guys leans in, looks at me and says, "Carole, is that like water in the corner of your eye?

你为什么不明白这有多酷？”我的一个伙计靠过来，看着我说：“卡罗尔，你眼角有水吗？

Oh my God, are you going to cry?" And then he says, "Are you human after all?"

天哪，你要哭吗？”然后他说：“你到底是人类吗？”

Carole Robin: Are you human after all?

卡罗尔·罗宾：你到底是人类吗？

And then I burst out crying and I tore up our agenda and I said, "You don't think I'm human?" I don't think there is anything more important for us to spend our off-site talking about than that.

然后我突然哭了起来，撕毁了我们的议程，我说：“你不认为我是人吗？”我认为对于我们来说，没有什么比这更值得我们在场外讨论的了。

And we spent the next two days talking about who we were, why we were there, what we wanted, what was important to us, how we could help each other.

在接下来的两天里，我们讨论了我们是谁、我们为什么在那里、我们想要什么、什么对我们重要、我们如何互相帮助。

To this day, I believe that was the day I became a leader.

直到今天，我相信那是我成为领导者的那一天。

To this day I know for a fact any of them would follow me anywhere.

直到今天，我知道他们中的任何一个人都会跟随我到任何地方。

Lenny Rachitsky: To help people build this muscle and start to practice this to try 15% disclosure, try to be a little more vulnerable.

Lenny Rachitsky：为了帮助人们建立这种肌肉并开始练习尝试 15% 的披露，尝试变得更脆弱一点。

Is there any other examples or just tidbits you can share of like, here's something you should start doing more and more?

是否有任何其他示例或只是您可以分享的花絮，例如，您应该开始越来越多地做一些事情？

Carole Robin: Let's start with you can start admitting mistakes, especially when everybody knows you made one, you actually lose a lot more credibility by ignoring it.

卡罗尔·罗宾：首先，你可以开始承认错误，尤其是当每个人都知道你犯了错误时，如果你忽视它，你实际上会失去更多的可信度。

And you can start again 15% by experimenting with sharing what's going on for you, particularly with regard to feelings a little bit more often.

你可以通过尝试分享你正在发生的事情来重新开始 15%，尤其是更频繁地分享自己的感受。

So there's a recent course is called Touchy-Feely emphasis on the feely and not the touchy.

所以最近有一门叫做 Touchy-Feely 的课程，强调的是感觉而不是敏感。

And that's because so much of our ability to develop this competence comes down to the appropriate use of feelings.

这是因为我们发展这种能力的能力很大程度上取决于情感的适当运用。

That's why a vocabulary of feelings, how sad is it?

所以才有了感情的词汇，到底有多悲伤？

We had to develop a vocabulary feelings because that's how hard it is for people to even access what they're feeling.

我们必须发展一种情感词汇，因为人们很难理解他们的感受。

So there's a vocabulary feelings in the syllabus, in the course, in the appendix of the book.

所以在教学大纲中、在课程中、在书的附录中都有词汇感受。

Every member, every person who ever goes through a leaders in tech program gets it.

每个成员、每个经历过科技领导者项目的人都会明白这一点。

And it starts with allowing yourself to be known, not just in terms of facts and...

首先要让自己被人了解，而不仅仅是事实和……

Feelings give meaning to facts.

情感赋予事实意义。

Carole Robin: Let me give you another example.

卡罗尔·罗宾：让我再举一个例子。

If I tell you I went ziplining, well, that's interesting.

如果我告诉你我去了滑索，那么，那很有趣。

Maybe you learned something about me.

也许你了解了一些关于我的事情。

Maybe you start to make up all sorts of interesting stories about me.

也许你开始编造各种关于我的有趣故事。

But if I tell you I went ziplining and I was terrified, but I went because I felt coerced by my family and I didn't want to be left alone back and then miss out.

但如果我告诉你我去了滑索，我很害怕，但我去是因为我感到受到家人的胁迫，我不想独自一人回来然后错过。

Well, you learned a lot more about me, didn't you?

好吧，你对我有了更多的了解，不是吗？

One of my most satisfying moments at the very first Leaders in Tech retreat we ever did was of a former student of mine who had taken Touchy Feely 15 years before, and who said, based on everything I learned 15 years ago from Carole, I couldn't imagine what I would learn if I came back.

在我们举办的第一届科技领袖静修会上，我最满意的时刻之一是我的一位前学生，他 15 年前参加了 Touchy Feely，他说，根据 15 年前我从卡罗尔那里学到的一切，我无法想象如果我回来我会学到什么。

So I'm back.

所以我回来了。

And he said, but Carole or no Carole, I will not sit around for four days talking about how we're all crushing it.

他说，无论卡罗尔与否，我都不会坐上四天谈论我们如何粉碎它。

I will leave.

我会离开。

Carole Robin: I was like, "Oh," I was so proud.

卡罗尔罗宾：我当时想，“哦，”我很自豪。

And now there are times when a leader does have to stand up and say, yeah, we're crushing it.

现在，有时领导者确实必须站出来说，是的，我们正在粉碎它。

So another really, really important thing that people don't understand is that all of this is very nuanced and very context dependent, and most people unanswered Tell me what to do when X happens.

因此，人们不理解的另一件非常非常重要的事情是，所有这些都非常微妙且非常依赖于上下文，并且大多数人都没有回答告诉我当 X 发生时该怎么办。

Well, did X happen with this person or this person?

那么，X 是发生在这个人身上还是这个人身上呢？

What relationship do you have with them in the first place?

首先你和他们是什么关系？

Are there 20 people in the room of 250?

250人的房间里有20人吗？

Is this being recorded?

这是正在录制吗？

There's just so many different things.

有很多不同的事情。

Who's going to have access to it?

谁将有权访问它？

There's so many things that you have to consider, and especially today, I know I'm old and this will sound predictable, but I am not a social media fan.

你必须考虑很多事情，尤其是今天，我知道我老了，这听起来是可以预见的，但我不是社交媒体迷。

I think it has done more to destroy strong relationships and to destroy people's ability to even learn or think about what it takes to have a great relationship.

我认为它更多地破坏了牢固的关系，甚至破坏了人们学习或思考如何建立良好关系的能力。

Carole Robin: Anyway, we could do a whole podcast on that.

卡罗尔·罗宾：无论如何，我们可以就此制作一个完整的播客。

I have a former Leaders in Tech fellow who sent me this fantastic, here's another great example, sent me an email and maybe he called me, I don't remember.

我有一位前科技领袖研究员给我发了这个很棒的例子，这是另一个很好的例子，他给我发了一封电子邮件，也许他给我打电话，我不记得了。

It doesn't matter.

没关系。

He said, "So I had my all-hands meetings are every Monday morning, on Friday, I found out we had missed a major deadline on a product release, and I spent the entire weekend just furious, pissed off, wanting to fire a lot of them," and he said, "And then on Sunday afternoon, I remembered part of what you taught us was that anger is often a secondary emotion and often under anger is either fear or hurt.

他说，“所以我每周一早上都会召开全体会议，周五，我发现我们错过了产品发布的主要截止日期，整个周末我都非常愤怒，生气，想解雇很多人，”他说，“然后在周日下午，我记得你教给我们的部分内容是，愤怒通常是一种次要情绪，愤怒之下通常要么是恐惧，要么是伤害。

And then I realized, oh yeah, I'm actually feeling pretty scared here, that nobody is as worried about this as I am."

然后我意识到，哦，是的，我实际上在这里感到非常害怕，没有人像我一样担心这件事。”

Carole Robin: And so he said, "So on Monday morning, instead of getting up and blasting them all as I was prepared to do, I got up and I said, so, gang, I am deeply worried and afraid that I'm the only person here who is as concerned about this missed deadline as I am and what it's going to mean to our customers." And he said, "I have never had my troops rally to fix something faster." So appropriate use of feelings is something most people don't know how to do.

卡罗尔·罗宾：所以他说，“所以周一早上，我没有像我准备的那样起床对他们进行猛烈抨击，而是站起来说，所以，伙计们，我非常担心和害怕，我是这里唯一一个和我一样担心错过最后期限的人，以及这对我们的客户意味着什么。”他说：“我从来没有让我的部队集结起来更快地解决问题。”所以适当地运用感情是大多数人不知道该怎么做的事情。

They don't even know how to access the feeling.

他们甚至不知道如何获得这种感觉。

I told this particular anecdote about anger being a secondary emotion at a very big workshop a number of months ago, and a woman walked up to me and said, "Wow, thank you so much.

几个月前，我在一个非常大的研讨会上讲述了这个特殊的轶事，愤怒是次要情绪，一位女士走到我面前说：“哇，非常感谢你。

I've never understood that my husband Carries so much fear and so much hurt because he only ever leads with anger.

我从来不明白我的丈夫带着如此多的恐惧和如此多的伤害，因为他总是带着愤怒。

It never even occurred to me something else might be going on." And anger is a distancing emotion, whereas hurt, fear, sadness, loneliness, happiness, joy are all connecting emotions.

我从来没有想到可能会发生其他事情。”愤怒是一种疏远的情绪，而伤害、恐惧、悲伤、孤独、幸福、喜悦都是连接的情绪。

So those are kinds of things people learn when they come through our programs.

这些都是人们通过我们的项目学到的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Oh, man, you're blowing my mind already.

Lenny Rachitsky：哦，伙计，你已经让我大吃一惊了。

I can see why marriages are saved by a lot of these things you teach.

我明白为什么你所教的这些东西可以挽救婚姻。

That's a really profound point you're just making there that anger is a secondary emotion.

你刚才提出的一个非常深刻的观点是，愤怒是次要的情绪。

Really what's going on is you're afraid or you're hurt.

真正发生的事情是你害怕或者你受伤了。

Is there anything more you can add there because this feels very important?

您还有什么可以补充的吗，因为这感觉非常重要？

Carole Robin: That is normally what's going on, except we've all been socialized not to be vulnerable, especially in business and naming any of those other things makes us feel vulnerable.

卡罗尔·罗宾：这通常是正在发生的事情，只不过我们都被社会化为不脆弱，尤其是在商业领域，而提及任何其他事情都会让我们感到脆弱。

So somehow being angry doesn't make us feel vulnerable.

因此，生气并不会让我们感到脆弱。

That's the okay emotion, as long as you express it in an appropriate way, but it's a distancing emotion.

这是一种可以接受的情绪，只要你以适当的方式表达它，但它是一种疏远的情绪。

What a disservice to everybody in business.

这对商界的每个人来说都是多么大的伤害啊。

What a disservice to professional learning, to not help people understand that anger is a distancing emotion and that there are other emotions that are appropriate and that are connecting.

如果不帮助人们理解愤怒是一种疏远的情绪，而还有其他适当的、相互联系的情绪，这对专业学习是多么大的伤害。

Lenny Rachitsky: This connects so beautifully to your first point we talked about of being vulnerable and disclosing more and how I completely see how if you were just to share, I'm afraid of this, how that brings people closer to you and feels like they will trust you more versus you not sharing that.

Lenny Rachitsky：这与我们谈到的脆弱和披露更多的你的第一点联系得非常好，我完全明白如果你只是分享，我担心这一点，这如何让人们更接近你，感觉他们会比你不分享更信任你。

Carole Robin: Right.

卡罗尔·罗宾：对。

It connects to something else.

它连接到其他东西。

You and I talked about one of the biggest gifts I think people get out of taking Touchy Feely or going through the Leaders in Tech program or even reading the book is that they learn that they hold some mental models, some beliefs and assumptions.

你和我谈到了我认为人们从参加 Touchy Feely 或参加科技领导者计划甚至阅读这本书中获得的最大礼物之一，那就是他们了解到自己持有一些心理模型、一些信念和假设。

If I do this, that will happen, or if I don't do this, this will happen.

如果我这样做，就会发生这种情况，或者如果我不这样做，就会发生这种情况。

And those are beliefs and assumptions that we develop very early in our careers like I did.

这些是我们在职业生涯早期就形成的信念和假设，就像我一样。

Whatever you do, you leave your feelings in the parking lot.

无论你做什么，你都会把你的感受留在停车场。

And it served me really well initially.

最初它对我很有帮助。

If I'd burst out crying two months into the job, I'd have never ended up running a $50 million region and then it over served me, and then it cost me because I never had a reason to update it.

如果我上任两个月就哭了，我就永远不会运行一个价值 5000 万美元的区域，然后它就过度服务了我，然后它让我付出了代价，因为我从来没有理由更新它。

Carole Robin: Because I never realized I was paying a cost for continuing to hold that belief that drove my behaviors.

卡罗尔·罗宾：因为我从来没有意识到我正在为继续持有驱动我行为的信念付出代价。

And mental models, then we developed them very early and they're grooved and we need new experiences in order to even believe that they're maybe subject to testing.

还有心智模型，我们很早就开发了它们，它们已经成型，我们需要新的经验才能相信它们可能会受到测试。

Gee, I will forever be grateful to this fellow who said, "Oh my God, are you human after all?" I was like, how did this ever happen that I became seen as not human?

哎呀，我将永远感激这个人，他说：“天哪，你到底是人类吗？”我当时想，我怎么会被视为非人类呢？

Again, we go back to some of the stuff we talked about earlier, which is that leaders, if a leader doesn't show up with a willingness to update their mental models and their beliefs, they're certainly not going to inspire anybody else to do that.

再次，我们回到之前讨论的一些内容，即领导者，如果领导者不愿意更新他们的心智模型和信仰，他们肯定不会激励其他人这样做。

Lenny Rachitsky: I'm glad you got here because this is exactly where I was going to go next, is this mental model challenge we run into where we develop these mental models early on and then they end up hurting us later in life.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很高兴你来到这里，因为这正是我下一步要去的地方，这是我们遇到的心理模型挑战，我们很早就发展了这些心理模型，然后它们最终在以后的生活中伤害了我们。

Are there common mental models people have that hurt them as they grow?

人们在成长过程中是否有一些常见的心理模式会伤害他们？

Or is it very particular independent on people's experience?

还是它非常特别独立于人们的经验？

Carole Robin: I mean, there are some that are pretty tried and true.

卡罗尔·罗宾（Carole Robin）：我的意思是，有些是经过验证的，而且是正确的。

I mean, the first one is, if I tell you more about me, you'll take advantage of me.

我的意思是，第一个是，如果我告诉你更多关于我的信息，你就会利用我。

Or if I am vulnerable with you or disclosing, you'll think I'm weak.

或者，如果我在你面前表现出脆弱或暴露，你就会认为我很软弱。

And inevitably, somebody has had a time in their life where that has been true, and maybe it was true a lot, but then they decide that's the only outcome that's ever possible as opposed to part of growing up and becoming more mature is differentiating and being more discretionary in who we open up to and how we open up to them.

不可避免地，有人在他们的生活中曾经经历过这样的情况，也许很多时候都是如此，但后来他们认为这是唯一可能的结果，而不是成长和变得更加成熟的一部分是区分和更加谨慎地对待我们向谁开放以及我们如何向他们开放。

It's like I have a colleague who often says, we have to think about these things as dials, not switches.

就像我有一位同事经常说的那样，我们必须将这些东西视为刻度盘，而不是开关。

It's not an all or I don't tell you everything or nothing.

这不是全部，或者我没有告诉你一切或什么也不告诉你。

I don't share every single feeling I've got or none.

我不会分享我所拥有的或没有的每一种感觉。

It's a dial and you move it at 15% rate.

它是一个转盘，你以 15% 的速度移动它。

Carole Robin: Another mental model people hold, and this becomes a huge learning for people who go through our programs, is people think if I give you feedback, it's going to ruin the relationship.

卡罗尔·罗宾：人们持有的另一种心理模型，对于参加我们项目的人们来说是一个巨大的学习，那就是人们认为如果我给你反馈，就会破坏我们的关系。

It's going to weaken the relationship.

这会削弱双方的关系。

Whoa, that's really common.

哇，这确实很常见。

Even though everybody's always wanting, I want more feedback, I want to know how it can be better, but everybody believes that giving feedback is going to create a problem.

尽管每个人总是想要，我想要更多反馈，我想知道如何才能做得更好，但每个人都认为提供反馈会产生问题。

And that's because most people have in fact been on the receiving end of feedback poorly given or they've given feedback in a not very good way.

这是因为大多数人实际上都收到了不好的反馈，或者他们以不太好的方式提供了反馈。

They've stepped in piles of doodoo, yes.

是的，他们踩进了一堆乱七八糟的东西。

And it does not mean feedback ruins relationships.

这并不意味着反馈会破坏关系。

It means feedback the way you've always seen it done or done.

这意味着以您一贯看到的方式进行反馈。

It ruins relationships pretty important.

它破坏了关系，这非常重要。

And then one of the things that we arm people with, I think one of the most powerful pieces of learning that people get is learning how to give feedback in a way that is going to build relationships as opposed to, and it's going to build a relationship.

然后，我们武装人们的一件事，我认为人们获得的最有力的学习之一就是学习如何以一种能够建立关系的方式提供反馈，而不是，它将建立一种关系。

Carole Robin: If you see that my reason for wanting to give it to you is that I'm invested in you and in us it's similarly, we hold mental models about expressing what we call pinches, which are just those little things that people do.

卡罗尔·罗宾（Carole Robin）：如果你明白我想把它给你的原因是我对你和我们的投资，那么类似地，我们拥有表达我们所谓的“捏”的心理模型，这只是人们做的那些小事。

Then we're just like, eh, I'm not going to make a big deal out of it.

然后我们就会说，呃，我不会小题大做。

I'm not going to say anything, but mental model is, eh, it's a small thing.

我不会说什么，但心智模型是，呃，这是一件小事。

The problem is, if I'm doing something that's mildly irritating and you don't tell me, then what am I going to do?

问题是，如果我正在做一些有点令人恼火的事情，而你却不告诉我，那我该怎么办？

Carole Robin: And then are you going to get less irritated or more irritated?

卡罗尔·罗宾：那么你会变得不那么恼怒还是更加恼怒？

Carole Robin: Yeah.

卡罗尔·罗宾：是的。

Now, if I get less irritated or it doesn't change, then you're right.

现在，如果我不那么生气或者情况没有改变，那么你是对的。

I shouldn't say anything.

我不应该说什么。

But if I have the wherewithal to notice, this is why we talk about two antenna, which I'll come back to notice that I'm getting more and more activated, more and more irritated, then it's really important for me to say something.

但如果我有足够的资金去注意，这就是为什么我们谈论两个天线，我会回来注意到我变得越来越活跃，越来越恼火，那么对我来说说点什么真的很重要。

And by the way, address it while it's still small and then it won't get big.

顺便说一句，趁它还小的时候解决它，然后它就不会变大了。

That's why we call it talk about a pinch before it becomes a crunch, and then it becomes a much bigger deal.

这就是为什么我们称其为紧缩之前的讨论，然后它就变得更重要了。

But most of the time we say it's not worth it.

但大多数时候我们都会说这不值得。

So I always tell students, okay, substitute the pronoun, substitute the word it for I, you, we.

所以我总是告诉学生，好吧，用代词代替，用“it”代替“我”、“你”、“我们”。

I'm not worth it, you're not worth it.

我不值得，你也不值得。

We're not worth it.

我们不值得。

And then ask yourself again whether it's worth raising.

然后再问自己是否值得筹集。

Lenny Rachitsky: This episode is brought to you by the a16z Podcast.

Lenny Rachitsky：本集由 a16z 播客为您带来。

Every week on this podcast, you get to hear from product leaders and growth experts from some of the world's most impactful companies, whether it's Airbnb, Slack, Figma, or Stripe.

每周在这个播客中，您都会听到来自世界上一些最具影响力的公司（无论是 Airbnb、Slack、Figma 还是 Stripe）的产品领导者和增长专家的意见。

But what will the next wave of companies look like?

但下一波公司会是什么样子呢？

One firm might have a clue, and recent Horowitz invested in all four of the companies I just mentioned and their flagship podcast, the a16z Podcast features conversations with the very founders and technologists shaping our future.

一家公司可能有线索，最近 Horowitz 投资了我刚才提到的所有四家公司及其旗舰播客，a16z 播客的特色是与塑造我们未来的创始人和技术专家进行对话。

Recent episodes feature folks like Marc Andreessen, longtime builders like Adam D'Angelo from Quora and Mark Pincus from Zynga, even some voices from the government like the CIA's first-ever chief technology officer, Nand Mulchandani.

最近的剧集以马克·安德森 (Marc Andreessen) 等人、Quora 的亚当·德安吉洛 (Adam D'Angelo) 和 Zynga 的马克·平卡斯 (Mark Pincus) 等长期建设者为主角，甚至还有一些来自政府的声音，例如中央情报局 (CIA) 首位首席技术官南德·马尔昌达尼 (Nand Mulchandani)。

From drones to DNA to deep learning, you can eavesdrop on the future with the a16z Podcast.

从无人机到 DNA 再到深度学习，您可以通过 a16z 播客窃听未来。

I want to talk about how to give feedback well, but I think it might be helpful to talk about this concept that you call the three realities and the net, because I think that sets up a lot of this.

我想谈谈如何很好地提供反馈，但我认为谈论这个被称为“三个现实”和“网络”的概念可能会有所帮助，因为我认为这奠定了很多基础。

Carole Robin: Yeah.

卡罗尔·罗宾：是的。

And in fact, it is fundamental to giving feedback.

事实上，提供反馈至关重要。

Carole Robin: So they're very related.

卡罗尔·罗宾：所以他们非常相关。

You were right on the money.

你在钱上是对的。

And you know what, let me just take a moment and talk.

你知道吗，让我花点时间谈谈。

I mentioned the two antennae, and this is in the book, but we're all equipped with two antennae.

我提到了两个天线，这是在书中，但我们都配备了两个天线。

One is tracking what's going on for me, my internal antenna.

一是跟踪我的情况，我的内部天线。

The other one is trying to pick up signals on what might be going on for you.

另一种是试图获取有关您可能发生的事情的信号。

And first of all, recognizing those two antennae exist.

首先，认识到这两个触角的存在。

Second of all, learning how to hone our ability to pick up subtler and subtler signals make us more interpersonally competent.

其次，学习如何磨练我们捕捉越来越微妙信号的能力，可以让我们在人际交往中变得更有能力。

That's also why I'm a big believer in meditation and awareness.

这也是我坚信冥想和意识的原因。

So, anyway, if we now fast-forward to your question about how to give feedback well, which has to do with understanding the three realities.

所以，无论如何，如果我们现在快进到你关于如何提供反馈的问题，这与理解三个现实有关。

It starts with in any exchange between two people, there are three realities.

首先，在两个人之间的任何交流中，都存在三个现实。

There is my intent, how I see the world, my background, my history, there is what I do or say or don't do, verbal or nonverbal.

这是我的意图，我如何看待世界，我的背景，我的历史，还有我做什么、说什么或不做什么，无论是口头的还是非口头的。

Carole Robin: So my reality is reality number one, my behavior, verbal or nonverbal is reality number two.

卡罗尔·罗宾：所以我的现实是第一现实，我的行为，无论是言语还是非言语，都是第二现实。

And whatever happens on your end is reality.

无论你身上发生什么，都是现实。

Number three, the impact of what I've said or done, how you see things, your background.

第三，我所说或所做的影响，你如何看待事物，你的背景。

So there's these three distinct realities.

所以存在这三个不同的现实。

And the trouble we get into when we don't recognize that those three realities exist is we don't understand that we are only privy to two out of the three.

当我们不认识到这三个现实的存在时，我们就会陷入麻烦，因为我们不明白我们只了解这三个现实中的两个。

So I know what's going on for me, and I know what I did.

所以我知道我发生了什么，我知道我做了什么。

I have no idea what happened on your end.

我不知道你那边发生了什么。

You know what I did and how it impacted you.

你知道我做了什么以及它对你有何影响。

So your two are...

所以你们两个是...

The only one we share is the one in the middle in common, the behaviors right now, we draw a metaphorical net between reality number one and reality number two to help people understand.

我们唯一的共同点是中间的共同点，即现在的行为，我们在第一现实和第二现实之间画了一张隐喻网，以帮助人们理解。

And anybody who's ever taken Touchy Feely in no matter which context knows the saying, "Stay on your side of the net."

任何曾经在任何情况下使用过 Touchy Feely 的人都知道这句话：“站在你的一边。”

Carole Robin: Meaning stick with the two realities you know because we get in trouble the minute we start thinking we know the other person's reality.

卡罗尔·罗宾：意思是坚持你所知道的两个现实，因为一旦我们开始认为我们了解另一个人的现实，我们就会遇到麻烦。

Right?

正确的？

So I've told this anecdote many times, it might even be in the book, but I come home...

所以这个轶事我已经讲过很多次了，甚至可能在书里，但我回到家......

I'm sorry, my husband comes home after a very long day in the valley.

抱歉，我丈夫在山谷里度过了漫长的一天后回家了。

He was an executive.

他是一名高管。

I've got two little kids, infant and a 2-year-old.

我有两个小孩，一个是婴儿，一个是两岁。

I've been waiting for him to come home.

我一直在等他回家。

I come running into the front room.

我跑进前屋。

In those days, by the way, we still had newspapers.

顺便说一句，那时候我们还有报纸。

He's reading the newspaper and I say, "Oh my God.

他正在看报纸，我说：“天哪。

Oh my God, you're home.

天哪，你回家了。

I can't wait until I tell you what happened tonight.

我迫不及待地想告诉你今晚发生了什么事。

I can't believe what happened.

我不敢相信发生了什么事。

Why are we living in Palo Alto, Jesus Christ?

天哪，我们为什么住在帕洛阿尔托？

I don't want to raise kids in Palo Alto.

我不想在帕洛阿尔托抚养孩子。

It's a terrible town.

这是一个可怕的小镇。

I wish that new nursery school, it hasn't even opened.

我希望那所新幼儿园还没开张。

It's already closed.

已经关门了。

Oh my God."

天哪。”

Carole Robin: And then he says, "mm-hmm, great.

卡罗尔·罗宾：然后他说，“嗯嗯，太棒了。

"So then I say, you're not listening.

“那我就说，你不听。

And by the way, people have been taught iMessages, I feel that you're not listening is exactly the same thing, it doesn't have a single feeling word in it.

顺便说一句，人们已经学会了 iMessages，我觉得你不听是完全一样的事情，它里面​​没有任何感情词。

I don't know whether he was listening or not.

我不知道他有没有在听。

I'm over the net.

我已经通过网络了

I'm in his court unless I'm in his head.

除非我在他的脑子里，否则我就在他的宫廷里。

I don't know whether he was listening or not.

我不知道他有没有在听。

But then he says, yeah, I was listening.

但后来他说，是的，我在听。

You're all worked up.

你们都很兴奋。

You went to that new nursery school.

你去了那所新的幼儿园。

Actually it's more like this.

其实更像是这样的。

Yeah, you're all worked up and you went to that new nursery school hasn't even opened.

是啊，你们都很激动，你们去了那所还没有开张的新幼儿园。

You're all worked up.

你们都很兴奋。

Now I get a little bit more activated and I say, "How can you not care?" First of all, he didn't say, I don't care, did he?

现在我变得更加活跃了，我说：“你怎么能不在乎呢？”首先，他没有说，我不在乎，不是吗？

I don't know whether he cares or not.

我不知道他是否在乎。

And by the way, "How can you be so insensitive?"

顺便问一句，“你怎么能这么麻木不仁呢？”

Carole Robin: And I feel that you don't care and I feel you're being insensitive are not feelings.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我觉得你不在乎，我觉得你麻木不仁，这不是感情。

They're attributions and imputed motives, and that's where we make our biggest mistakes when it comes to feedback.

它们是归因和推定动机，这就是我们在反馈方面犯下的最大错误。

And what that does is it makes the other person defensive.

这样做的作用是让对方产生防御心理。

So calling my husband insensitive is the most insensitive thing in the world because he's one of the most sensitive people on the planet.

所以说我丈夫麻木不仁是世界上最麻木不仁的事情，因为他是这个星球上最敏感的人之一。

So it wasn't until I learned to stay on my side of the net and say, so when I speak and I'm all worked up about something and the only thing I get back from you are either a grunt or an affectless repetition of what I just said, that's reality number two, anybody watching the video would say, that's what happened, I don't feel heard.

所以直到我学会站在网络的一边说，所以当我说话的时候，我对某件事很激动，而我从你那里得到的唯一回应就是要么咕哝，要么毫无感情地重复我刚才所说的话，这是第二个现实，任何观看视频的人都会说，这就是发生的事情，我感觉没有被听到。

He can't say, yeah, you do.

他不能说，是的，你知道。

And when I don't feel heard, I feel hurt and I feel distanced.

当我感觉没有被倾听时，我会感到受伤并且感到疏远。

Carole Robin: And the reason I'm telling you that is because I can't be here for you in the way I want to be when I feel that way.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我之所以告诉你，是因为当我有这种感觉时，我无法以我想要的方式为你服务。

So the formula is when you do insert behavior, I feel pull out the vocabulary of feelings and I'm telling you this because, or I'm hoping the outcome of you knowing this is.

所以公式是，当你插入行为时，我感觉拔出了情感词汇，我告诉你这是因为，或者我希望你知道这一点的结果。

And so then what happened is he said, "Well, if you want my undivided attention, then you've got to give me some time to unwind when I get home." What a reasonable request.

然后发生的事情是他说：“好吧，如果你想要我全神贯注，那么你必须在我回家后给我一些时间放松。”多么合理的要求啊。

I said, "Well, how much time do you need?" He said, "I don't know, half an hour." "I was like, half an hour?" I've been counting the minutes.

我说：“那么，你需要多少时间？”他说：“我不知道，半个小时吧。” “我想，半个小时？”我一直在数分钟。

How about five minutes?

五分钟怎么样？

We settled on 15.

我们定在15号。

And by the way, that is the purpose of feedback.

顺便说一下，这就是反馈的目的。

When it's constructive feedback, move into a problem-solving conversation, don't change the other person.

当这是建设性的反馈时，进入解决问题的对话，不要改变对方。

Move into behaviors that will work better for both of you.

采取对你们双方都更有利的行为。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

And this structure, so the structure you just shared, and this is similar to nonviolent communication structure?

还有这个结构，所以你刚才分享的结构，这类似于非暴力沟通的结构？

Lenny Rachitsky: So there's books people can read on this-

Lenny Rachitsky：所以人们可以阅读一些关于此的书籍-

Carole Robin: Right.

卡罗尔·罗宾：对。

Ours came before, but that's okay.

我们的之前也来过，不过没关系。

Carole Robin: I will say anything that spreads the word and anything that helps people learn how to engage with each other in ways that build relationship, I'm all for.

卡罗尔·罗宾（Carole Robin）：我会说任何能够传播信息的事情，以及任何可以帮助人们学习如何以建立关系的方式相互交往的事情，我都赞成。

Lenny Rachitsky: I love that attitude.

Lenny Rachitsky：我喜欢这种态度。

Okay, so the structure again is just when you do some behavior, I feel an emotion.

好吧，结构又是当你做一些行为时，我感受到一种情绪。

By the way, is there a flyer or handout?

顺便问一下，有传单或讲义吗？

I think the book has these of just emotions.

我认为这本书里有这些纯粹的情感。

Okay, cool.

好吧，酷。

And feelings.

和感受。

Carole Robin: The vocabulary of feelings is an appendix in the book.

卡罗尔·罗宾：感情的词汇是本书的附录。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Okay, great.

好的，太好了。

So by the book, if you want to get really good at this stuff, is there anything online we can point people to, or?

因此，根据书本，如果您想真正擅长这些东西，我们可以在网上提供一些信息吗？

Carole Robin: We got a picture of the...

卡罗尔·罗宾：我们得到了一张......的照片

I'll send you a couple of slides.

我将向您发送几张幻灯片。

Carole Robin: And then you can just say, here are the slides.

卡罗尔·罗宾：然后你可以说，这是幻灯片。

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

So we'll link to that in the show notes.

所以我们将在演出笔记中链接到该内容。

And as you talk through all of these lessons and pieces of advice, it makes so much sense why this is something you need to do.

当您讨论所有这些教训和建议时，您就会明白为什么这是您需要做的事情。

Because I imagine what's happening in the class here is you do this with someone and then you hear the reality and it often surprises you.

因为我想象课堂上发生的事情是你和某人一起做这件事，然后你听到现实，这常常让你感到惊讶。

Right?

正确的？

Carole Robin: Exactly.

卡罗尔·罗宾：没错。

Because often we say it takes two to know one, I don't know what impact I'm having on you until you tell me.

因为我们常说“二人知一”，在你告诉我之前，我不知道我对你有什么影响。

And I have to be willing to be a little vulnerable to ask.

我必须愿意稍微脆弱地提出问题。

And if we go back to that first activity that you asked me to describe way at the beginning, then we put them back in pairs and we say, okay, now that you've learned a little bit about feedback, tell your partner what they did that made it easier for you to disclose more and be more willing to be more vulnerable and/or what they did that made it a little harder.

如果我们回到你一开始要求我描述的第一个活动，然后我们把它们放回成对的状态，我们说，好吧，现在你已经了解了一些关于反馈的知识，告诉你的伴侣他们做了什么让你更容易透露更多信息并更愿意变得更脆弱和/或他们做了什么让事情变得更困难。

And right there in the moment, you learned something about yourself that you might never have known.

就在那一刻，你了解了一些你可能永远不知道的关于自己的事情。

Somebody says, you looked away as I was talking, you might not have even known you did that.

有人说，当我说话时你把目光移开，你可能根本不知道你这么做了。

You looked at your watch.

你看了看手表。

And I love this.

我喜欢这个。

Carole Robin: One of my greatest moments when I was teaching was that I asked a question.

卡罗尔罗宾：我教学时最伟大的时刻之一就是我提出了一个问题。

I was teaching in a big lecture hall at the law school, and they didn't have any clocks on the wall.

我在法学院的一个大报告厅里教书，他们的墙上没有任何时钟。

And I asked a question and a student began answering, and I just glanced at my watch just because I was trying to figure out where I was in terms of when I had to wrap up.

我问了一个问题，一个学生开始回答，我只是看了一眼手表，因为我试图弄清楚我什么时候必须结束。

And he walked up to me after class and he said, "Professor, I felt disrespected when you looked at your watch while I was answering," I hugged him.

下课后他走到我面前说：“教授，当我回答问题时你看手表，我感到很不尊重。”我拥抱了他。

Well, first I asked him if it was okay, "Is it okay if I hug you?" And then I hugged him.

嗯，首先我问他是否可以，“我可以拥抱你吗？”然后我拥抱了他。

Lenny Rachitsky: And I love how so much of this is like, we never get this feedback in real life.

Lenny Rachitsky：我很喜欢这种感觉，但我们在现实生活中从未得到过这种反馈。

No one ever tells us this thing you did is distracting them, annoying them, making them feel like they're not being heard.

没有人告诉我们你所做的这件事分散了他们的注意力，惹恼了他们，让他们感觉自己的声音没有被听到。

Carole Robin: And then guess what?

卡罗尔·罗宾：然后你猜怎么着？

Then he leaves and then somebody says, how was that?

然后他离开了，然后有人说，怎么样？

He says, oh, she's really disrespectful.

他说，哦，她真是不尊重人。

And then pretty soon nobody's ever even been there.

然后很快就没有人去过那里了。

But my reputation is that I don't respect students.

但我的名声是不尊重学生。

That's how stuff gets out of control.

这就是事情失控的方式。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

And you wish people would tell you, right?

你希望人们告诉你，对吗？

Everybody wants this, but it's so hard and uncomfortable to tell anyone negative feedback.

每个人都希望这样，但告诉任何人负面反馈是如此困难和不舒服。

Carole Robin: Which by the way, I never used the word negative when it comes to feedback.

卡罗尔·罗宾：顺便说一下，在反馈方面我从未使用过负面这个词。

Carole Robin: So feedback is either constructive or complimentary.

卡罗尔·罗宾：所以反馈要么是建设性的，要么是补充性的。

Constructive feedback is there's something you're doing that is problematic, and the purpose of it is let's move to a problem solving conversation like with Andy and me.

建设性反馈是你正在做的事情有问题，其目的是让我们像安迪和我一样进行解决问题的对话。

The purpose of complimentary feedback is, wow, that's the third time you've handed in that report early and completely, and you even went above and beyond and did this and this.

补充反馈的目的是，哇，这是你第三次提前完整地提交报告了，你甚至超越了这个和这个。

I can't tell you how much I appreciate that, how lucky I feel that you work for me.

我无法告诉你我是多么感激这一点，我觉得你为我工作是多么幸运。

And if I'm telling you this, because if there's ever something that you want that we're not giving you, I want to make sure you know that I want to talk about it.

如果我告诉你这些，是因为如果有一些你想要的东西我们没有给你，我想确保你知道我想谈论它。

By the way, same formula.

顺便说一句，同样的公式。

Now compare that to nice job, thanks, right?

现在将其与出色的工作进行比较，谢谢，对吧？

All feedback is data.

所有的反馈都是数据。

So all feedback is positive.

所以所有的反馈都是积极的。

More data is always better than less data.

更多的数据总是比更少的数据更好。

Lenny Rachitsky: I agree.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：我同意。

That's a great lesson there.

这是一个很好的教训。

To maybe make this even more practical for listeners that are maybe working on a product and say they have to give feedback in a product design or to a colleague who did something wrong.

对于可能正在开发产品并说他们必须在产品设计中或向做错事的同事提供反馈的听众来说，这可能会变得更加实用。

Is there an example that you could share of just in the workplace.

您可以分享一下工作场所中的例子吗？

Carole Robin: I'm glad you asked that, because first of all, we're not talking about performance feedback and we're not necessarily talking about feedback on a task.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我很高兴你问这个问题，因为首先，我们不是在谈论绩效反馈，也不一定是在谈论任务反馈。

What we're talking about is interpersonal feedback.

我们谈论的是人际反馈。

And the reason it's so important is that if you don't take care of that, then that other feedback becomes unresolved.

它之所以如此重要，是因为如果你不处理这一点，那么其他反馈就无法解决。

When you leave the interpersonal stuff unresolved, then the other feedback doesn't go well because the real problem is that I'm still pissed off that you never answered my phone call.

当你不解决人际问题时，其他反馈就不会顺利，因为真正的问题是我仍然对你从未接听我的电话感到生气。

So now I'm going to make it all about how this feature really is never going to work.

所以现在我要讲的是这个功能实际上永远不会起作用。

Here's an example.

这是一个例子。

Somebody walks into...

有人走进...

A manager or a team leader or whatever, walks into a room meeting, starts a meeting by say, so I want to make sure we hear from everybody.

经理或团队领导或其他什么人走进房间会议，通过发言开始会议，所以我想确保我们听到每个人的意见。

I want to make sure that we have a very full conversation.

我想确保我们进行一次非常充分的对话。

Carole Robin: I want to talk about X.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我想谈谈 X。

And now let's say that I start to say something and before I have finished, he says, yeah, and the other thing we should talk about is blah, blah.

现在假设我开始说些什么，在我说完之前，他说，是的，我们应该谈论的另一件事是废话，废话。

And then a little later a similar thing happens.

过了一会儿，类似的事情发生了。

I start to suggest that there's another way to look at this and he turns back to somebody else, what somebody else had said and never says anything in response to what I just said.

我开始建议用另一种方式来看待这个问题，然后他转向其他人，其他人说过的话，并且从未对我刚才说的话做出任何回应。

And I'm being very specific here, very behaviorally specific.

我在这里说的非常具体，非常具体的行为。

And then after a while, what happens to me is I feel less and less inclined to offer up anything.

过了一段时间，我身上发生的事情是我越来越不愿意提供任何东西。

Now, maybe he doesn't care, but if he cares because he started by think he wanted to hear from everybody, then I'm not being very caring if I don't tell him what the impact was of his behavior.

现在，也许他并不关心，但如果他关心是因为他一开始认为他想听到每个人的意见，那么如果我不告诉他他的行为的影响是什么，我就不是很关心。

So I don't call him out in the middle of the meeting because I don't want to embarrass him, but I might go to his office later and say, "So, John, do you have a few minutes?" I have an observation.

所以我不会在会议中途叫他出来，因为我不想让他难堪，但我可能会稍后去他的办公室说：“那么，约翰，你有几分钟时间吗？”我有一个观察。

Carole Robin: I've got something that I experienced that you might want to know.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我有一些我经历过的事情你可能想知道。

"Sure, Carole." So when I started to say x, you did y.

“当然，卡罗尔。”所以当我开始说 x 时，你就说了 y。

When I started to say z, you did it.

当我开始说z时，你就做到了。

I said, and when that you started the meeting by saying you want to hear from everybody.

我说，当你开始会议时，你说你想听到每个人的意见。

When that happened, I felt less and less...

当那件事发生时，我的感觉越来越不...

I felt shut down, and I felt less and less inclined to offer up my opinion.

我感觉自己被封闭了，越来越不愿意提出自己的意见。

Maybe that's okay, but I wondered whether you knew that that was the impact.

也许没关系，但我想知道你是否知道这就是影响。

And I'm telling you, because as far as I am concerned, in that meeting, you did not accomplish your stated desire.

我告诉你，因为就我而言，在那次会议上，你没有实现你所说的愿望。

Your desired outcome was to hear from everybody.

您期望的结果是听到每个人的意见。

And after a while, I just gave up trying to give you my...

过了一段时间，我就放弃了给你我的...

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, it's like you need to solve these pinches as you described early, because all of this comes back to these are relationships, they matter because that's the way we get everything done.

Lenny Rachitsky：嗯，就像你之前描述的那样，你需要解决这些困难，因为所有这一切都归结为关系，它们很重要，因为这是我们完成所有事情的方式。

And if you just ignore these things, your relationship's going to be hurt.

如果你忽视这些事情，你们的关系就会受到伤害。

You're not going to be able to accomplish the things you want to accomplish.

你将无法完成你想要完成的事情。

It's almost like something you need to do even though it feels hard.

这几乎就像是你需要做的事情，尽管感觉很困难。

Carole Robin: Absolutely.

卡罗尔·罗宾：当然。

And that's why I say that feedback builds relationships because by the way, if I'm doing something that I'm, I wish I hadn't done, it's not that I'm going to be like, "Oh yeah, I'm so glad I did that." But if I recognize that it would've been easier for you not to say anything because it would've been more comfortable, but because you cared about me, you actually said something to me, that talk about something that builds relationship.

这就是为什么我说反馈可以建立关系，因为顺便说一句，如果我正在做某件事，我希望我没有做，我不会说，“哦，是的，我很高兴我这么做了。”但如果我认识到你不说什么会更容易，因为这样会更舒服，但因为你关心我，你实际上对我说了一些话，谈论一些建立关系的事情。

Lenny Rachitsky: Coming back to the antenna as you described feels like one of the most important skills you teach people is to build this antenna both of yourself, which is you could to think is easier, but maybe often not, but also understanding how the other person feels.

Lenny Rachitsky：回到你所描述的天线，感觉你教给人们的最重要的技能之一就是自己建造这个天线，你可能会认为这更容易，但也许常常不是，但也要理解对方的感受。

And you have this concept of the art of inquiry and how powerful that is.

你已经有了探究艺术的概念，以及它的力量有多大。

Can you just talk about what that is?

你能简单谈谈那是什么吗？

Carole Robin: Oh, yeah.

卡罗尔·罗宾：哦，是的。

I'm glad you brought that up, because inquiry is a fundamental component of strong interpersonal relationships for a couple of reasons.

我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为探究是牢固人际关系的基本组成部分，原因有几个。

And first of all, let's stop and note, inquiry comes the root of the word inquiry is quest.

首先，让我们停下来注意一下，“探究”一词的词根是“探索”。

Quest means to be in search of and not knowing what you're going to find, not the way most people think about questions and inquiries.

探索意味着寻找但不知道你会发现什么，而不是大多数人思考问题和询问的方式。

Most of the time people ask a question to confirm a hypothesis.

大多数时候，人们提出问题是为了证实一个假设。

"Don't you think you're just trying to discredit John by doing that?" That's not inquiry.

“你不认为你这样做只是想抹黑约翰吗？”那不是询问。

"Don't you think you'd just be better off letting that go?" That's not inquiry.

“你不觉得放弃这件事会更好吗？”那不是询问。

And by the way, another thing to note in artful inquiry, first of all, you have to suspend judgment.

顺便说一下，在巧妙的探究中还有一点需要注意，首先，你必须暂停判断。

You cannot be curious if you've already decided you know what's going on someone else.

如果你已经决定你知道别人发生了什么事，你就不会好奇。

You can always go back to being judgmental, but you got to suspend it long enough to see if there's something for you to learn.

你总是可以回到评判的状态，但你必须暂停足够长的时间，看看是否有什么东西可以让你学习。

Carole Robin: And then the way you ask the question matters, questions that can be answered with yes or no are typically limiting questions and aren't going to be very productive.

卡罗尔·罗宾：然后你提出问题的方式很重要，可以回答是或否的问题通常是限制性问题，并且不会很有成效。

Questions that start with why, why did you do that?

从“为什么”开始的问题，你为什么这么做？

Are going to make me defensive?

会让我防御吗？

Or worse, why are you crying?

或者更糟糕的是，你为什么哭？

Well, is that going to make me want to tell you more about why I am upset or why are you upset?

好吧，这会让我想告诉你更多关于我为什么不高兴或者你为什么不高兴的事情吗？

Right away I'm going to go into, "Oh no, I'm not upset.

我马上就会说：“哦，不，我并不难过。

It's not a big deal." Or I'm going to go into a place that's not necessarily very productive because this reminds me of how my mother always scolded me.

这没什么大不了的。”或者我会去一个不一定很有成效的地方，因为这让我想起我母亲总是如何责骂我。

Neither one is going to be very productive.

两者都不会很有成效。

So questions that start with what?

那么以什么开头的问题呢？

What's this about?

这是关于什么的？

What's going on?

这是怎么回事？

Where is this manifesting?

这体现在哪里呢？

When did you see this happen last?

您上次看到这种情况是什么时候发生的？

How might we go about unpacking what's going on?

我们该如何解开正在发生的事情？

Where is this happening most?

这种情况最常发生在哪里？

When, where, how, stay away from why.

何时、何地、如何，远离为什么。

And it's a whole art.

这是一门完整的艺术。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something else you teach people and you're big on is that people can actually change themselves.

Lenny Rachitsky：你教给人们并且你很看重的另一件事是人们实际上可以改变自己。

I think a lot of people might feel like, I'm just not good at this.

我想很多人可能会觉得，我不擅长这个。

I'm not good at giving feedback.

我不擅长提供反馈。

I'm not good at maybe asking questions.

我可能不擅长提问。

I'm just like, I don't know.

我只是想，我不知道。

Talk about what you found about the change people see and why it's actually possible and how.

谈论您对人们所看到的变化的发现，以及为什么它实际上是可能的以及如何实现。

Carole Robin: Well, for starters, to any of your listeners, one of my very favorite authors is Carol Dweck who wrote a book called Mindset and you put a word yet at the end of any of those, I don't know how yet, I'm not like that yet, changes the meaning of the whole thing.

卡罗尔·罗宾：首先，对于各位听众来说，我最喜欢的作家之一是卡罗尔·德韦克，她写了一本名为《心态》的书，而你在其中任何一本的末尾放了一个词，我还不知道如何，我还不是那样，改变了整个事情的含义。

And by the way, talk about updating a mental model, instant update of a mental model.

顺便说一下更新心智模型，即时更新心智模型。

And the other thing that I'll say is we are all capable of changing our behavior.

我要说的另一件事是我们都有能力改变我们的行为。

We cannot change our personality.

我们无法改变我们的个性。

We are born wired with personalities.

我们生来就有个性。

I am very outgoing and extroverted as might come as a shock to all of you.

我非常外向，可能会让你们所有人感到震惊。

And you know what?

你知道吗？

When I overdo it, I suck all the oxygen out of the room and one of the behaviors I had to learn, and it takes discipline to engage in was zipping it a little more so that others could speak up more.

当我做得太过分时，我会把房间里的所有氧气都吸走，而我必须学习的行为之一是，需要自律才能参与其中，那就是压缩一点，以便其他人可以更多地发言。

Carole Robin: And my incentive was that I actually really wanted to learn more about what was going on for them and I wasn't going to learn anything unless I shut up long enough for them to tell me.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我的动机是，我真的很想更多地了解他们正在发生的事情，除非我闭嘴足够长的时间让他们告诉我，否则我不会学到任何东西。

So behavior is something we all have control over.

因此，行为是我们所有人都可以控制的。

Now when I give somebody feedback and they tell me, well, I can't do that.

现在，当我向某人提供反馈时，他们告诉我，我不能这样做。

If I've asked them to change a behavior, then I'll say, I'm sorry, I don't think I can accept I can't.

如果我要求他们改变某种行为，那么我会说，对不起，我认为我不能接受，我不能。

I will accept I don't want to or I don't have it, but I don't have to accept I can't.

我会接受我不想或我没有，但我不必接受我不能。

So I'd just like you to own the fact that it's a choice that you're making.

所以我希望你承认这是你所做的选择这一事实。

Lenny Rachitsky: Kind of along those lines, something, I don't know if this is from your book, but I saw somewhere you said that it's possible to say almost anything to almost anyone if you have the necessary skills.

Lenny Rachitsky：有点类似，我不知道这是否来自你的书，但我在某个地方看到你说，如果你有必要的技能，你可以对几乎任何人说几乎任何事情。

How do people build these skills?

人们如何培养这些技能？

I know we talked about a lot of this through the structure focusing on your side of the net, but just how do you avoid people getting defensive?

我知道我们通过关注你的网这边的结构讨论了很多这个问题，但是你如何避免人们变得防守呢？

Carole Robin: First of all, let's make sure that we point out that what we're doing here is we're shifting probabilities of success, we're not guaranteeing anything.

卡罗尔罗宾：首先，让我们确保我们指出，我们在这里所做的是我们正在改变成功的可能性，我们不保证任何事情。

And let's say that you do your best and you stay on your side of the net and you give somebody feedback and they go bonkers and they call you all kinds of names and they write...

假设你竭尽全力，站在网络的一边，给别人反馈，他们会发疯，用各种各样的名字称呼你，然后写信……

Now there's an opportunity to learn something else that everybody learns in these programs, which is called repair.

现在有机会学习每个人都在这些程序中学习的其他东西，这称为修复。

How do you repair when something goes sideways?

当东西侧向时如何修复？

Because no matter how good you are, no matter how skilled you get, no matter what your intent was, sometimes it won't work.

因为无论你有多优秀，无论你有多熟练，无论你的意图是什么，有时都是行不通的。

And then you've got to know how to repair.

然后你必须知道如何修复。

And that's why, remember I told you that our facilitators have a unique set of skills?

这就是为什么，还记得我告诉过你，我们的辅导员拥有一套独特的技能吗？

And that's because they have to allow messes to happen otherwise nobody's going to learn how to repair.

那是因为他们必须允许混乱发生，否则没有人会学习如何修复。

And repair often goes back to some of what we've already talked about.

修复通常会回到我们已经讨论过的一些内容。

Let's start with I come in the kitchen, my husband's struggling.

让我们从我走进厨房开始，我丈夫正在挣扎。

I say to him, "Can I help you with that?" He says, "Don't tell me what to do."

我对他说：“我可以帮你吗？”他说：“别告诉我该怎么做。”

Carole Robin: I'm sure none of your listeners can relate to this story.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我相信你们的听众都无法理解这个故事。

And I say, instead of, "I wasn't trying to tell you what to do, I was just trying to be helpful.

我不是说：“我并不是想告诉你该怎么做，我只是想提供帮助。

What a kind of way to respond to my offering help is that?" I say, "What did you hear me say?" One of the most powerful things you can do when somebody responds in a way that feels very unexpected and out of whack with what you just said is go back to, "What did you hear me say?" Because nine times out of 10 what they heard is not what you said.

这是一种什么样的方式来回应我的帮助呢？”我说：“你听到我说什么了吗？”当有人的回应方式让你感到非常意外并且与你刚才所说的格格不入时，你能做的最有力的事情之一就是回头问：“你听到我说什么了吗？”因为他们听到的十分之九不是你说的。

He said, "I heard you say I didn't know what I was doing." Now, by the way, it didn't matter.

他说：“我听到你说我不知道​​自己在做什么。”现在，顺便说一句，这并不重要。

That's not what I said.

我不是这么说的。

And I didn't say, that's not what I said.

而且我没说，那不是我说的。

I said, "Wow, really glad I asked, because now that I understand that that's what you heard, I understand why you reacted the way you did." And I said, "Let me try it again."

我说：“哇，很高兴我问了这个问题，因为现在我明白这就是你所听到的，我明白你为什么会有这样的反应。”我说：“让我再试一次。”

Carole Robin: One of the ways that I show somebody that I love them is I offer to help and what would you like me to do if in a situation like this when I see you struggling?

卡罗尔·罗宾：我向别人表明我爱他们的方式之一是我愿意提供帮助，如果在这种情况下，当我看到你在挣扎时，你希望我做什么？

He says, "Wait for me to ask." And that was 25 years ago, and that has served us very well because we've been married 37 years, 39 years.

他说：“等我问。”那是 25 年前的事了，这对我们很有帮助，因为我们已经结婚 37 年、39 年了。

And if we go back to feedback, you give somebody feedback, they get super defensive.

如果我们回到反馈，你给某人反馈，他们会变得超级防御。

By the way, net jumping invites net jumping, so they're likely to net jump too.

顺便说一句，跳网会邀请跳网，所以他们也可能会跳网。

And by the way, the minute you label somebody or you're over the net.

顺便说一句，当你给某人贴上标签或者你在网上的那一刻。

In fact you sent me something that was really interesting that I wanted to find here because you said "Nobody is born with genes for being rude or self-involved." Well, guess what?

事实上，你给我发了一些非常有趣的东西，我想在这里找到，因为你说“没有人天生就有粗鲁或自私的基因。”嗯，你猜怎么着？

Carole Robin: Rude and self-involved are labels that is not behaviorally specific.

卡罗尔·罗宾（Carole Robin）：粗鲁和自私是不具体行为的标签。

So calling somebody rude or self-involved is just going to make them defensive.

因此，称某人粗鲁或自私只会让他们产生防御心理。

But saying, I was interrupted three times, and I'm telling you this because you said you wanted to hear my opinion and I just thought you should know that I was put off by being interrupted, much less likely to incite defensiveness.

但是说，我被打断了三次，我告诉你这些是因为你说你想听听我的意见，我只是想你应该知道我被打断推迟了，更不可能激起防御。

Lenny Rachitsky: Absolutely.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：当然。

Just hearing what actually happened, staying on your side of the net.

只是听听实际发生的事情，留在网络上。

Lenny Rachitsky: So again, this always comes back to I could see this being so effective doing this in a class versus just listening to us and like, okay, I'm going to start staying in my side of the net and I'm going to prepare relationships.

Lenny Rachitsky：所以，这总是会回到我可以看到在课堂上这样做非常有效，而不是仅仅听我们说话，然后，好吧，我要开始呆在网络的一边，我要准备人际关系。

Are there any other examples of exercises you do in the class that might be helpful to people just to hear how you learn some of these things?

您在课堂上进行的练习是否还有其他示例，可能会对人们了解您如何学习其中一些内容有所帮助？

Carole Robin: Every chapter in the book has a section at the end called Deepen Your Learning and those deep in your learning sections, every single one of them has a suggested activity, something you can go do, and some of those come from some of the things we do in the classroom.

卡罗尔·罗宾：书的每一章最后都有一个名为“深化你的学习”的部分，以及那些深入学习的部分，其中每一部分都有一个建议的活动，一些你可以去做的事情，其中​​一些来自我们在课堂上做的一些事情。

So that's one place to start in terms of trying to find very tactical and practical ways of applying some of this.

因此，这是尝试寻找非常战术和实用的方法来应用其中一些方法的一个起点。

The other thing that we often do, I often do in leaders in Tech, I used to do this less at Stanford because they did a lot of this in their T groups and they were actually in real time with each other putting everything they were learning to use.

我们经常做的另一件事，我经常在科技领域的领导者中做，我以前在斯坦福大学很少这样做，因为他们在他们的 T 组中做了很多这样的事情，而且他们实际上彼此实时地把他们所学到的一切都运用起来。

But sometimes with my execs in Leaders in Tech, I will, for example, put them in a trio and I will say to you, so Lenny, I want you to think of somebody who you would like to give feedback to and I want you to tell me what's the behavior they're engaging in?

但有时候，我会把我的高管放在科技领导者中，例如，把他们分成三人组，然后我会对你说，莱尼，我希望你想出一个你愿意向其提供反馈的人，我希望你告诉我他们正在从事什么行为？

Carole Robin: How does it make you feel?

卡罗尔·罗宾：这让你感觉如何？

What would be behind you wanting to tell them?

你想告诉他们的背后是什么？

What would be your desired outcome to the conversation?

您期望的对话结果是什么？

Then I become you, you become your difficult person because you know them and I don't, and we role play because you've now told me what you need, what you want, what's going on for you, and then you have to play your difficult person as well as you can.

然后我变成了你，你变成了你的难相处的人，因为你认识他们，而我不认识他们，我们进行角色扮演，因为你现在告诉我你需要什么，你想要什么，你发生了什么事，然后你必须尽可能地扮演你的难相处的人。

The third person's usually the observer who pinch hits and says, "Carole, I think that was over the net." "Carole, I don't think that was a behavior." And by the way, we say, I feel insert feeling, nine times out of 10 people say, I feel that, or I feel like, I feel that you don't care is not a feeling.

第三个人通常是观察者，他捏击并说：“卡罗尔，我认为那是通过网络进行的。” “卡罗尔，我不认为这是一种行为。”顺便说一句，我们说，我感觉到插入感觉，十分之九的人说，我感觉到，或者我感觉到，我感觉到你不在乎，这不是一种感觉。

Carole Robin: I feel like it doesn't matter, is not a feeling.

卡罗尔罗宾：我觉得没关系，不是一种感觉。

I feel that you're not committed is not a feeling.

我觉得你不投入不是一种感觉。

In fact, they're all over the net.

事实上，它们遍布网络。

You're almost guaranteed to be over the net when you start I feel and put in like or that, guaranteed.

当你开始时，我感觉并投入类似或那样的内容，保证你几乎可以保证通过网络。

Very easy hack.

非常容易破解。

I feel pull up vocabulary feeling, you can't say grammatically correctly.

我感觉词汇量被拉高了，你不能说语法正确。

I feel that sad or I feel that angry, or I feel that irritated or I feel like disappointed, doesn't work.

我感到悲伤或生气，或感到恼怒或感到失望，这些都行不通。

Lenny Rachitsky: This is amazing marriage advice going to, I need to remember these things.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：这是一个很棒的婚姻建议，我需要记住这些事情。

Carole Robin: Yeah.

卡罗尔·罗宾：是的。

Many married couples have bought the book together and read it together actually, which is cool.

很多已婚夫妇一起买了这本书并一起阅读，这很酷。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's a few other things I want to touch on that I love.

Lenny Rachitsky：还有一些我喜欢的事情。

One is a tip that you share.

其中之一是您分享的提示。

You call it advise hinders relationships.

你称之为建议阻碍关系。

Carole Robin: Oh, I'm really glad you asked me about that because two things, a couple of things.

卡罗尔·罗宾：哦，我真的很高兴你问我这个问题，因为有两件事，几件事。

First of all, leaders often believe this is another mental model that they have to have all the answers, and that is actually a pretty, it's not a very productive mental model or belief because first of all, puts a huge amount of pressure on the leader.

首先，领导者通常认为这是另一种心理模型，他们必须拥有所有答案，这实际上是一个漂亮的，但不是一个非常有成效的心理模型或信念，因为首先，给领导者带来了巨大的压力。

Now suddenly I always have to know and what happens when I don't know.

现在突然间我总是必须知道，当我不知道时会发生什么。

Second of all, I believe a leader's job is to ensure the best answer is found.

其次，我认为领导者的工作是确保找到最佳答案。

It doesn't matter whether it comes from me or anywhere else in the organization.

无论它来自我还是组织中的其他任何地方，这并不重要。

It also allows for the possibility that somebody else may have a better answer than me.

它还允许其他人可能有比我更好的答案。

And a really, really good solution has been squelched and never surfaced because people are afraid to say, well, I see it a little differently.

一个非常非常好的解决方案被压制了，从未出现过，因为人们不敢说，好吧，我的看法有点不同。

What if we did this?

如果我们这样做怎么办？

Carole Robin: We had a or disaster as a result of that.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我们因此遭遇了一场灾难。

The other thing about advice is that it creates even bigger power differentials between people.

关于建议的另一件事是，它会在人与人之间造成更大的权力差异。

So if you're the leader or you're in the higher power position to start with, then giving me advice is only going to make me feel even lower power as opposed to, well, let's think about this together.

因此，如果你是领导者，或者你一开始就处于较高的权力位置，那么给我建议只会让我感觉自己的权力更低，而不是，好吧，让我们一起考虑一下这个问题。

Let's be thought partners.

让我们成为思想伙伴。

Often when we give advice, it's a good thing to stop yourself and ask yourself, "Who am I doing this for?

通常，当我们提供建议时，最好停下来问问自己：“我这样做是为了谁？

Am I doing this for me so that I can puff myself up with everything I know or am I doing it for you because this is really going to help you and make you better?"

我这样做是为了我自己，这样我就可以用我所知道的一切来夸大自己，还是为了你，因为这真的会帮助你，让你变得更好？”

Carole Robin: Nine times out of 10, being a thought partner as you explore the various options and coming to your own solution is both going to help you develop more, and then you're not going to have to come ask me again if the only time you ever learn is when you come ask me and you don't go through any of the work or figuring out how I got to that answer, well, then I've just made more work for myself.

卡罗尔·罗宾：十分之九，当你探索各种选择并找到自己的解决方案时，成为一个思想伙伴都会帮助你发展更多，然后你就不必再来问我了，如果你唯一学到的一次是当你来问我时，你没有完成任何工作或弄清楚我是如何得到这个答案的，那么我就为自己做了更多的工作。

Lenny Rachitsky: There's this great Harvard Business Review post I just read about monkeys on your back.

Lenny Rachitsky：我刚刚在《哈佛商业评论》上读到了一篇关于你背上的猴子的精彩文章。

Have you heard of this?

你听说过这个吗？

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

Where basically as a manager, people are always trying to put monkeys on your back to have you solve their problem, and your job as a manager is to keep the monkeys on their own backs and help them.

基本上，作为一名经理，人们总是试图把猴子放在你的背上，让你解决他们的问题，而你作为经理的工作就是让猴子背在自己的背上并帮助它们。

Carole Robin: Yes, and I'm glad you brought that up because people then have become so used to the quick shortcut is you'll just give me the answer.

卡罗尔·罗宾：是的，我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为人们已经习惯了你给我答案的快捷方式。

First of all, you have enabled powerlessness.

首先，你启用了无​​力感。

You certainly haven't helped them learn and grow.

你当然没有帮助他们学习和成长。

If you at all think your job as a manager is to at least sometimes do that, and sometimes people will say, "Can't you just give me the answer?" And then I always just say, I could and here's why I'm not going to because I don't think that'll serve you because that's not my job.

如果你认为你作为经理的工作至少有时会这样做，有时人们会说，“你不能给我答案吗？”然后我总是说，我可以，这就是为什么我不会这样做，因为我认为这对你没有帮助，因为那不是我的工作。

My job isn't just to give you the answers.

我的工作不仅仅是给你答案。

My job is to turn you into somebody who eventually will just know what the right answer is.

我的工作就是把你变成一个最终知道正确答案的人。

Lenny Rachitsky: But just give me the answer.

Lenny Rachitsky：但是请给我答案。

Does this apply to friendships also?

这也适用于友谊吗？

I know often people come to you as a friend, I need some advice on this.

我知道人们经常以朋友的身份来找你，我需要一些建议。

Does this apply as well?

这也适用吗？

Often try not to give advice, or is it a different dynamic there?

经常尝试不提供建议，或者那里有不同的动态吗？

Carole Robin: Well, some of the same power differential can happen.

卡罗尔·罗宾：嗯，一些相同的权力差异可能会发生。

I think chapter four in the book is about two guys who were good friends and one of them is always trying to give advice to the other one.

我认为这本书的第四章是关于两个好朋友的故事，其中一个总是试图给另一个提供建议。

First of all, it can be annoying if you didn't ask for it.

首先，如果您没有提出要求，可能会很烦人。

So I certainly wouldn't give advice unless somebody asked for it, and I might not immediately jump to the advice, I might want to explore.

因此，除非有人要求，否则我当然不会提供建议，而且我可能不会立即跳到建议，我可能想探索。

What have you already thought about?

你已经想到了什么？

How have you already approached it?

你已经如何接近它了？

Where are you stuck?

你被困在哪里了？

I might ask more questions before I immediately go into advice because by the way, nine times out of 10, you end up giving advice on something that's not really what the person was worried about or wondering about.

在我立即提供建议之前，我可能会问更多问题，因为顺便说一句，十分之九的情况是，你最终给出的建议并不是对方真正担心或想知道的事情。

So first go to inquiry.

所以先去询问一下。

You can always come back to advice.

您可以随时回来寻求建议。

Lenny Rachitsky: I find that every time I try to resist or I make myself resist giving advice and instead ask more questions, every single time, I realized, okay, I had no idea what they were actually looking for or what was going on, but it's hard to do.

Lenny Rachitsky：我发现每次我试图抵制或让自己抵制提供建议，而是提出更多问题时，每一次我都会意识到，好吧，我不知道他们实际上在寻找什么或发生了什么，但这很难做到。

I'm just like, here, I just want to tell you, here's the thing.

我只是想，在这里，我只是想告诉你，事情就是这样。

Carole Robin: Totally.

卡罗尔·罗宾：完全可以。

Because you know what?

因为你知道什么？

It's another mental model.

这是另一种心理模型。

I serve you best by just giving you advice when you ask for it, that's the loving, caring thing to do.

当你提出要求时，我会为你提供最好的建议，这是充满爱心和关怀的事情。

Well, it's a mental model.

嗯，这是一种心理模型。

Try testing it and seeing whether or not it really turns out to still be valid.

尝试测试它，看看它是否真的仍然有效。

Lenny Rachitsky: And so maybe the more correct mental model is how would you describe it that it's often better to help the person figure it out, or is it that you just often don't actually understand what's going on?

Lenny Rachitsky：所以也许更正确的心理模型是你如何描述它，通常帮助人们弄清楚它更好，或者你只是经常不真正理解发生了什么？

Carole Robin: The best thing to do first go to inquiry.

卡罗尔罗宾：最好先去询问。

Because by the way, I also, as you might imagine, I tend to err very much on the side of transparency, and so I'll say, man, I got all kinds of things going on in my head about what I think would be great for you to do, and I'm going to resist that because I, first of all may or may not hit the mark, so I'd really like to understand more.

因为顺便说一句，正如你可能想象的那样，我也倾向于在透明度方面犯很多错误，所以我会说，伙计，我的脑海里浮现出各种各样的事情，关于我认为对你来说会很好的事情，我会抵制这种想法，因为我首先可能会也可能不会击中目标，所以我真的很想了解更多。

And second of all, I wonder if in the end be even more fruitful if we explore different things together.

其次，我想知道如果我们一起探索不同的事物，最终是否会更加富有成果。

Lenny Rachitsky: Just a few more questions.

Lenny Rachitsky：还有几个问题。

One is, so we have this segment on the podcast that I call Failure Corner, where people share failure in their career and what they learn from it, and you have a really constructive way of thinking about failure with this great acronym.

一是，我们在播客上有这个片段，我称之为“失败角”，人们在其中分享职业生涯中的失败以及他们从中学到的东西，并且通过这个伟大的缩写，你可以以一种真正建设性的方式思考失败。

Can you talk about that?

你能谈谈吗？

Carole Robin: The acronym is A-F-O-G, another F-ing...

卡罗尔·罗宾：缩写是 A-F-O-G，另一个 F-ing...

I don't know your audience well enough.

我不太了解你的观众。

Don't want to offend anybody.

不想冒犯任何人。

Carole Robin: Another Fucking Opportunity for Growth.

卡罗尔·罗宾：又一个他妈的成长机会。

Every student who ever took a class from me, every client who I have ever coached, every participant who's ever gone through Leaders in Tech knows that acronym because my question, when something has gone wrong or a person has experienced a failure, my first question is always, so what did you learn?

每一个听过我课程的学生、每一位我辅导过的客户、每一位参加过科技领袖课程的参与者都知道这个缩写词，因为我的问题是，当出现问题或一个人经历了失败时，我的第一个问题始终是，那么你学到了什么？

Because there's always a lesson, and then usually what follows is, yeah, you just had an AFOG.

因为总有一个教训，然后通常接下来的就是，是的，你刚刚经历了一次 AFOG。

And as a person who's had a lot of AFOGs throughout my life, it puts it in perspective.

作为一个一生中经历过很多 AFOG 的人，它让我正确地看待它。

I like the perspective that it offers, so it's not the end of the world.

我喜欢它提供的视角，所以这不是世界末日。

Sometimes AFOGs are more painful than others.

有时 AFOG 比其他情况更痛苦。

Some AFOGs take longer to recover from than others.

有些 AFOG 需要比其他 AFOG 更长的时间才能恢复。

Most of the time they're recoverable, particularly if I've invested the energy in really unpacking what there was for me to be to learn.

大多数时候它们是可以恢复的，特别是如果我投入了精力来真正解开我需要学习的东西。

Lenny Rachitsky: Yeah.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：是的。

So the advice here is when something goes wrong, when you fail, think of it as another fucking opportunity for growth, AFOG.

所以这里的建议是，当出现问题时，当你失败时，将其视为另一个他妈的成长机会，AFOG。

Lenny Rachitsky: To even go full circle to where we started building exceptional relationships, building robust relationships.

Lenny Rachitsky：甚至回到我们开始建立特殊关系、建立牢固关系的地方。

In the book, you have this checklist of just how to build an exceptional relationship.

在这本书中，你有一份关于如何建立特殊关系的清单。

I know you don't have all this in your head, whatever.

我知道你脑子里并没有这一切，无论如何。

Lenny Rachitsky: You probably do.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：你可能会这样做。

What's on this list of just things you can do to build exceptional relationships?

您可以采取哪些措施来建立特殊的关系？

Carole Robin: Well, you can go back to the fact that there are six characteristics of exceptional relationships, and actually those are the characteristics that are present as a relationship is moving down this continuum that we've talked about.

卡罗尔·罗宾：嗯，你可以回到这样一个事实：特殊关系有六个特征，实际上，这些特征是关系沿着我们讨论过的连续体发展时所呈现的特征。

And the more each of these exists, the farther down the continuum you are.

其中每一个存在的越多，你在连续体中的位置就越远。

So the first one is I'm better known by you, and of course there's skills involved in how do I allow myself to be known.

所以第一个是你更了解我，当然这里面涉及到我如何让自己被了解的技巧。

The second one is, I know you better and there's skills involved in getting to know you better.

第二个是，我更了解你，并且有一些技巧可以更好地了解你。

We've talked about many of them.

我们已经讨论过其中的许多内容。

The third one is we trust that our disclosures won't be used against us.

第三，我们相信我们披露的信息不会被用来对付我们。

The fourth one is we can be honest with each other.

第四是我们可以彼此诚实。

That's where all the feedback comes in.

这就是所有反馈的来源。

The fifth one is we know how to resolve conflict productively, and the sixth one is we are committed to each other's learning and growth.

第五是我们知道如何有效地解决冲突，第六是我们致力于彼此的学习和成长。

And when all six of those are present to varying degrees, you've moved farther down the continuum.

当这六种因素都不同程度地出现时，你就已经在连续体中走得更远了。

Lenny Rachitsky: You wrote somewhere that you know your relationship has become exceptional when you and the other person don't have to hide important parts of yourself and can deal with major issues even if it feels scary.

Lenny Rachitsky：你在某处写道，当你和对方不必隐藏自己的重要部分并且可以处理重大问题时，即使感觉很可怕，你也知道你们的关系已经变得异常出色。

Carole Robin: Yep.

卡罗尔·罗宾：是的。

I did write that somewhere and I stand by that.

我确实在某个地方写过这一点，并且我坚持这一点。

Lenny Rachitsky: If you zoom out from all of your work and teachings, are there any overarching themes that continue to come up that you think are important for people to take away from this conversation?

Lenny Rachitsky：如果你把目光从你所有的工作和教学中移开，是否有任何你认为对人们从这次对话中学到的重要主题继续出现？

Carole Robin: Well, for starters, we're all works in progress, which means every relationship in your life is a work in progress.

卡罗尔·罗宾：首先，我们都在进行中，这意味着你生活中的每一段关系都是在进行中。

Because if I'm a work in progress and you're a work in progress, then by default so is our relationship.

因为如果我和你都在进行中，那么默认情况下我们的关系也是如此。

And so remembering that what worked with you two years ago may or may not work for you now because we're different people.

因此请记住，两年前对你有用的方法现在可能对你有用，也可能对你不起作用，因为我们是不同的人。

So I think that's a biggie.

所以我认为这是一个大问题。

I think stopping and becoming aware of what are the mental models that are driving these choices that I'm making, every behavior has in front of it a choice.

我认为停下来并意识到推动我做出这些选择的心理模型是什么，每一种行为面前都有一个选择。

If we stop long enough to become aware of it and in front of every choice, there's some belief.

如果我们停下来足够长的时间来意识到这一点，并且在每一个选择面前，都会有一些信念。

So I try to march myself back from the result to the behavior, to the choice, to the mental model that drove it or the skill or lack of skill.

所以我试图让自己从结果回到行为、选择、驱动它的心智模式、技能或缺乏技能。

Lenny Rachitsky: Something that we didn't talk about at the beginning of this because it might distract people, but you've been dealing with Long COVID for almost two years at this point.

Lenny Rachitsky：我们在开始时没有谈论这一点，因为它可能会分散人们的注意力，但此时您已经处理长新冠病毒近两年了。

Where are you at with it?

你在哪里？

How are things going and is there anything you've learned from this unexpected part of your life?

事情进展如何？您从生活中这个意想不到的部分中学到了什么吗？

Carole Robin: It's given me an opportunity to live a lot of what I teach.

卡罗尔罗宾：这给了我一个机会去实践我所教的很多内容。

So I always taught in my leadership classes that the worst thing a leader can do is make an organization too dependent on them.

因此，我总是在领导力课程中教导，领导者能做的最糟糕的事情就是让组织过于依赖他们。

If you care about building a sustainable long-term organization and a legacy, then it behooves you not to make the organization very dependent on you.

如果你关心建立一个可持续发展的长期组织和遗产，那么你就不应该让组织非常依赖你。

So over the last 20 months, I have slowly and surely given more and more of my responsibilities to more and more members of the team to the point where hot off the press, I'm about to become only an advisor and step out of really all of my operational duties probably by the end of this year.

因此，在过去的 20 个月里，我慢慢地、肯定地将越来越多的职责交给了越来越多的团队成员，以至于媒体热议，我即将成为一名顾问，并可能在今年年底退出我所有的运营职责。

Now, there was a point at which I was like, and oh my God, what happens if I get better suddenly?

现在，有一次我想，天啊，如果我突然好起来会发生什么？

Because people do get better, and one of my very wise children said, "Mom, I'm pretty sure that if you suddenly get a lot better, they'll be happy to give you lots of stuff to do." So, anyway, that's one of probably the biggest lessons, and also it goes with a lesson around acceptance and accept.

因为人们确实会变得更好，我的一个非常聪明的孩子说：“妈妈，我很确定，如果你突然变得更好，他们会很乐意给你很多事情做。”所以，无论如何，这可能是最大的教训之一，而且它还伴随着关于接受和接受的教训。

Carole Robin: I wrote a LinkedIn, I think a LinkedIn, not a blog paper, one of those LinkedIn things.

卡罗尔·罗宾（Carole Robin）：我写了一篇 LinkedIn，我认为是一篇 LinkedIn，而不是一篇博客论文，是 LinkedIn 的东西之一。

If you go to my website, you can look at things I've written, I think it was called Long COVID and Acceptance or something like that.

如果你访问我的网站，你可以看看我写的东西，我认为它被称为“Long COVID and Acceptance”或类似的东西。

But it's about how acceptance is not resignation, and it's about having an opportunity to rethink a lot of things and reframe beliefs.

但这是关于如何接受而不是放弃，而是关于有机会重新思考很多事情并重新构建信念。

And I think the last thing I'll say about it is that it has made me a much more empathetic person, and I think one of the really interesting and important things to learn and have always continued to learn in doing the interpersonal dynamics work we do is you never know what's going on for someone else.

我想我要说的最后一件事是，它让我成为一个更有同理心的人，我认为在我们所做的人际动态工作中需要学习并始终继续学习的真正有趣和重要的事情之一是你永远不知道别人正在发生什么。

Carole Robin: And one of the worst things we can do is assume we know what's going on for someone else, and it's really easy to get really...

卡罗尔·罗宾：我们能做的最糟糕的事情之一就是假设我们知道别人发生了什么事，而且很容易真的……

I think I said this before we even got online, which is in the absence of data, people make shit up.

我想我在我们上网之前就说过了，在没有数据的情况下，人们会胡编乱造。

So if you don't want people to make shit up about you, you're better off disclosing more because then you'll have more control over your self-definition, not less.

因此，如果你不想让人们捏造你的坏话，你最好披露更多信息，因为这样你就能更好地控制你的自我定义，而不是更少。

People like to make sense of things.

人们喜欢弄清楚事情的意义。

They will connect dots however way they want to unless you help them connect them the way you want them to.

他们会按照自己想要的方式连接点，除非你帮助他们按照你想要的方式连接它们。

Another case for self-disclosure.

又一个自我暴露的案例。

Lenny Rachitsky: Well, Carole, I'm incredibly thankful that you made time for this.

Lenny Rachitsky：卡罗尔，我非常感谢您抽出时间来做这件事。

I know it's not the easiest thing to do these things.

我知道做这些事情并不是最容易的。

Lenny Rachitsky: To remind people where to find Leaders in Tech and how to apply, tell them the website and who it's for specifically, so the right people go there.

Lenny Rachitsky：为了提醒人们在哪里可以找到科技领导者以及如何申请，请告诉他们网站以及它的具体对象，以便合适的人去那里。

And then finally, just how can listeners be useful to you as a final question?

最后，最后一个问题是听众如何对你有用？

Carole Robin: I'm on LinkedIn.

卡罗尔·罗宾：我在 LinkedIn 上。

You won't be able to just connect with me.

你将无法仅仅与我联系。

I've got one of those things where you can't just connect.

我有一件你无法直接联系的事情。

You need my email address so you can put my email address in the notes.

您需要我的电子邮件地址，以便您可以将我的电子邮件地址放在注释中。

Anybody's more than welcome...

任何人都非常欢迎...

But if you connect with me, please don't try to sell me anything.

但如果你与我联系，请不要试图向我推销任何东西。

The only reason it's set up that way is that too many people were trying to sell me too many things and I got exasperated.

这样做的唯一原因是太多的人试图向我推销太多的东西，这让我很恼火。

That's the only reason they wanted to connect.

这是他们想要建立联系的唯一原因。

So I'm just going to trust that you'll reach out to me because you want to connect with me because you're interested in my work and that you'll also know and be sensitive to the fact that I have Long COVID.

因此，我相信您会联系我，因为您想与我联系，因为您对我的工作感兴趣，并且您也会知道我患有长期新冠肺炎这一事实，并对这一事实很敏感。

So my capacity to respond to messages and emails is definitely impacted.

因此，我回复消息和电子邮件的能力肯定会受到影响。

I used to be one of those you could count on me to always respond.

我曾经是那些你可以指望我总是做出回应的人之一。

By the way, another learning.

顺便又学习一下。

It turns out everybody didn't write me off just because I couldn't respond to them right away.

事实证明，每个人并没有因为我无法立即回复他们而忽略我。

Lenny Rachitsky: That is a really great learning.

Lenny Rachitsky：这真是一次伟大的学习。

Okay.

好的。

And then the website for people that may want to apply and the applications are still open basically by the time this is leadersintech.org?

然后，当领导者技术组织 (leadersintech.org) 出现时，那些可能想要申请的人的网站和申请基本上仍然开放？

Lenny Rachitsky: Amazing.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：太棒了。

Carole, you are wonderful.

卡罗尔，你太棒了。

Thank you so much for making time for this.

非常感谢您抽出时间来做这件事。

Thank you for being here.

感谢您来到这里。

Lenny Rachitsky: Bye everyone.

莱尼·拉奇茨基：大家再见。

Thank you so much for listening.

非常感谢您的聆听。

If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

如果您发现这很有价值，您可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或您最喜欢的播客应用程序上订阅该节目。

Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

另外，请考虑给我们评分或留下评论，因为这确实有助于其他听众找到播客。

You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com.

您可以在 lennyspodcast.com 上找到所有过去的剧集或了解有关该节目的更多信息。

See you in the next episode.

下一集见。